From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  1 01:42:07 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 01:42:07 -0000
Subject: Snape! (song)
In-Reply-To: <002c01c042ea$3aed8900$21dd4b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8tnsdf+s074@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4955

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> 
wrote:
> Inspired by the Boggart that assumed the form of Snape garbed in 
the robes
> of Grandma Longbottom, here's a musical tribute to our favorite 
Potions
> Prof,  sung to the tune of "Mame," from Jerry Hermann's 1966 musical
> 

Oh, thank you VERY much! I now have visions of a kick line of Snapes 
dancing through my head.

And they won't leave.


ht




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  1 02:58:34 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:58:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK merchandise?
References: <8tnkqg+gbgm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004701c043af$a02215a0$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4956

Sighs....

Nick,
I realllly wish I could send you the funds to send that to me!  That is a kewl cup!

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:32 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK merchandise?


  Talking of merchandise...

  I've found a mug with a Blue Ford Anglia on it.

  (Neil... I have one for you, let me know your address)

  They are not anything to do with HP, so have not been damaged by 
  WBros artists!   They are also quite cheap... but supplys are very 
  limited at the moment, as I have yet to establish who makes them.

  Link to picture: http://www.dvd-films.freeuk.com/fordanglia.jpg

  Nick


        eGroups Sponsor 
       

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From donnadr at gte.net  Wed Nov  1 02:19:09 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:19:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] You've received a postcard from Anake Nisaba!
References: <200010312131.NAA01083@webeye.marty.net>
Message-ID: <007101c043aa$1ee06e60$2d9b193f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 4957

Thank you Anake...that was a cute and a nice gesture.    

Donna Rae


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:31 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] You've received a postcard from Anake Nisaba!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Wed Nov  1 02:41:02 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 02:41:02 -0000
Subject: I was wondering?
Message-ID: <8tnvru+89f9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4958

Hi I don't post musch up here I mostly lurk in the attic and read 
the fun and arguements. I was wondering if any of  you were 
from Southern California and if so would those here like to have 
a get together? I just thought it might nice to meet and chat in 
person about out favorite books! Thanks for your time 
Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov  1 03:13:44 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:13:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] THERE WILL BE A FEMALE DARK ARTS TEACHER!!!!!
References: <5d.22510cf.2720e9f6@aol.com> <051a01c04333$ebfea0a0$7edd4b0c@cq5wu> <39FEF2BD.AB233ED1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002401c043b1$bf04a940$082f4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 4959


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] THERE WILL BE A FEMALE DARK ARTS TEACHER!!!!!


> Caius Marcius wrote:
>
> > > that there will be a FEMAIL Defense of the Dark Arts Teacher!!
Cool,huh?!
> > > Heeheheheh!!
> >
> > But the bad news is that it's going to be Professor Trelawney....
>
> Oh, Caius, you are such a little *sunspot*! Always seeing the bright side!
Try
> to tune the Pollyanna down, eh?
>

Oh, Amanda, next thing you know, you're going to be accusing Snape of
grumpiness, and Draco Malfoy of instigating class warfare. ;}

Besides, I think Trelawney would excel as a DADA professor.  She'd instruct
her class how to adjust the room temperature so that the troublesome
entities would be reduced to an advanced state of drowsiness.

    - CMC




From drmm at fuuko.com  Wed Nov  1 03:32:00 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm at fuuko.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:32:00 -0000
Subject: The Ron thread: Misc. comments
Message-ID: <8to2rg+d00t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4960

I hate my e-mail I hate my e-mail I hate my e-mail (I tried to send 
this post four times from my account and it wouldn't go through -- so 
it's coming from the web version).

As I'd be sending in fifty e-mails if I responded to everything I 
wanted too I'm combining a bunch into one. . . 

Simon wrote: <<Lucius is not the only one to say that Hermione is top 
of the class. It is mentioned at other time throughout the books, but 
I am sure that not one of those occasions is because Hermione has 
mentioned it.

I see Hermione as being insecure. The reason she seems to know all the
answers is because she works hard. She seems to work hard because she 
has a large fear of failure. She shows the obsessive 'I am going to 
fail' when
revising for exams. She has got better by GoF, but still spends most 
of her
time working and feeling that she has to put that work in. I get the
impression that Hermione believes that because she has become top of 
the
class she must now work very hard to maintain that position and she 
would be very upset if she did not remain as the top student.

Another problem I have with Hermione is that she is constantly trying 
to
organize the others. In PS she draws up revision timetables for them. 
She
nags at Harry when he is not working towards the tasks in GoF. Yes I 
know
that Ron and Harry do need convincing to do their work, but at the end 
of
the day it is their decision and they should be left to choose about 
how
much they do.>>

I'm glad someone else besides me agrees that Hermione is insecure, and 
that's one of the main reasons why she's so insistant on being at the 
top . . . And I love the example you provide.  It is Ron and Harry's 
choice.  While I'm sure Hermione doesn't want her friends to fail, her 
concern crosses into "nagging" which is, um, obnoxious.

Simon wrote <snip>: <<Hopefully he will get some opportunity to show 
his Quidditch ability in the future. His build suggests that he may be 
a good keeper. His seems to have good logical reasoning and forward 
thought to work out what moves others will take. On top of this he is 
tall which makes reaching the Quaffle much easier. There is a space in 
that position - so who knows - Ron for Gryffindor keeper.>>

As I think I said yesterday . . . I like this idea.  I think Ron's 
ability for chess strategy would transfer well to Quidditch.  He has 
an in-depth knowledge of the game already and I would love to see him 
use this in some way . . .

Simon wrote: <<I disagree here. I think all three suffer from 
childhood insecurities and I think that they all can grow out of these 
insecurities. Ron just needs an opportunity to realise he does have 
talents and is good at something - it just remains to be seen what 
this skill is.>>

Um, I agree :)

Norevoli wrote: <<If not speaking to each other is equivalent to being
obnoxious then Harry has had his moments too. How about that whole 
fiasco
with Crookshanks. Although the fight was primarily between Ron and 
Hermione Harry totally sided with Ron. I didn't see Harry trying to 
get the two of them to reconcile (like Hermione does in GoF by trying 
to get the two of
them to talk to each other).">>

Actually, the time I found Harry most obnoxious fight-wise is during 
the fight when Hermione told Prof. McGonagall about the Firebolt.  The 
Crookshanks fight was mainly between Ron and Hermione, although Harry 
clearly sided with Ron.  When they fought over Hermione turning the 
Firebolt in, Harry is equally as angry as Ron is, despite knowing that 
Hermione was only concerned for his safety.  It's only when Harry gets 
his Firebolt back before the Quidditch match that he's willing to make 
up with Hermione.  Oh, and before anyone jumps on me . . . Ron is just 
as bad :).

I've been going off on the flaws I see in Harry and Hermione, so now 
I'll mention that Ron's biggest flaw, IMO, is his temper.  I find his 
insecurity perfectly natural, and although it can be irritating at 
times, I understand it.  I also think Ron will grow out of his temper 
to a certain extent.  I had the worst temper as a child (I'm sure my 
family would agree) so I also understand it to a  certain extent.  
When you have that tendency it takes time to learn how to control it. 
 I learned how and I'm sure Ron will too :)  And, I might add, Ron 
probably inherited this from his father.  When Lucius insults him in 
CoS Mr. Weasly acted just as Ron does when Draco insults him . . . 
gosh, now I'm convinced Ron and Mr. Weasley are a lot alike . . .

Susan wrote: <<And I may be even more verbose.......Harry does have 
some effects from the emotional trauma/abuse of the Dursleys (although 
I think
many of us agreed that he didn't have as much as he would have in 
real life, given that he had NO support, and NO role models while 
with the Dursleys. In real life, abused kids who do well are found by
or find a teacher, older friend, or several who support them and
give them hope).  Also, some abused kids react by being perfect and 
overachieving (ah, says the Sorting Hat, a nice thirst to prove 
yourself). Harry has a hard time trusting adults, confiding in 
adults, and believing that adults will ever give him a fair shake 
(Snape doesn't help). He is slowly beginning to trust Sirius, Molly,
and Dumbledore. He trusts Hagrid more immediately (imo) because 
Hagrid is himself different and outcaste, and does not have a lot of
power.>>

Interesting point . . . I'd always considered Harry's difficulty 
trusting adults to be part of the normal childhood paranoia that 
adults are out to get you (I wasn't the only one, right? <g>).  
However, I suppose it could be part of the reason . . . I also think 
part of that's just Harry's personality though.

<<I like Ron, myself, but I also like Hermione. She stops being 
obnoxious and gets less and less obnoxious as the books go on and she 
matures. She wants to succeed, and will do that through book learning.
However, she starts breaking rules, and is terrific about supporting 
her friends. I think she's a great person and don't understand Dr MM
why you don't like her. She supports Harry, but more importantly 
doesn't take advantage of their split to ingratiate herself with one
or the other, she tries to get them to be friends again.>>

ARGH!  I *don't* dislike Hermione; I just don't identify with her but 
that doesn't mean I don't like her.  Just to make sure everyone 
understands, I think Hermione is a good, intelligent, well-meaning 
person.  I'm just attempting to point out what I see as her greatest 
character flaw.  In my opinion, her constant display of her academic 
prowess in front of classes is obnoxious.    And, as I've stated many 
times, as the books progress, she matures and displays less and less 
of this tendency.

<<I also object to the characterization of Molly Weasley as a pushy 
and 
obnoxious mother. She has her flaws, absolutely...but she is the ONLY
one in the family who is positive about Percy (who after all, is 
trying to do everything right)..her other flaw is her silly crush on 
Lockhart.....

But she is a great and wonderful mother...she and Arthur have created 
a warm, loving environment for their children. It's no easy task 
raising six children (anyone else know the song about Agnes? Lovely 
Anges who raised them strongwilled and kind). The Burrows is a fun 
and warm and secure place to be. She worries about her kids, and 
reminds them of their duties, because that's her role. She also loves
them tremendously, which is why Harry turns to her at the end of GofF
for care and reassurance. NO MOLLY BASHING!>>

I'm bashing Molly?  <sigh>  I think you're misinterpreting me.  I 
think she's a good mother who loves her kids tremendously.  When I 
said she was "pushy and overbearing" I was trying to point out 
something I see as a character flaw.  She's only pushy and overbearing 
when it comes to seeing her kids succeed.  She wants them to succed, 
which is a good thing.  I think she goes about it the wrong way. As 
for Percy. . . yes, she's proud of him, and has good reasons for it.  
However, by comparing Fred, George and Ron to him, she's entering a 
dangerous arena.  It can create *huge* amounts of friction between 
siblings.  I suspect part of the reason Fred & George are so 
antagonistic towards Percy (besides the fact that he's a prick <g>) is 
that Mrs. Weasly is always trying to get them to be more like him.

Susan wrote: <<What so Hermione should censor herself so that the 
boys, oops, other classmates don't feel bad and have a chance to 
answer the questions?

it's the teacher's responsibility not to call on the smartest/best
prepared student and equalize the answers. The student's 
responsibility is to answer the questions.>>

This has nothing to do with gender.  If Hermione was male, I'd see the 
exact same character flaws.  My entire point with the quote was to 
illustrate that Hermione doesn't give anyone *time* to volunteer.  She 
raises her hand and two seconds later blurts out the answer (that's 
how I read it anyway).  She doesn't give Prof. Sprout time to nod and 
say "Yes, Hermione," or call on someone else.

Susan wrote: <<Dr MM I'm afraid I must suggest that you have problems 
with females.  Sounds like your older sister intimidated you.>>

I'm not sure how you interpreted my issues with Hermione into having 
problems with females . . . Just to make sure everyone knows. . . I 
consider myself a moderate feminist.  I have one problem with the 
character, not with women in general.  If Hermione was a male 
character I'd feel the exact same way.

Some people interpret her actions as her having a stong, assertive 
nature; I interpret them as showing a deeper insecurity and a desire 
for praise in the academic environment that I find obnoxious.  <shrug> 
If you have a different opinion, that's fine.  This is just my view.

DrMM 




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  1 03:30:51 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:30:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7 Heavenly Virtues: Fortitude (long)
References: <39FBC0C3.7E959D37@ibm.net> <000a01c042ef$e1346c20$4dc44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39FF8E6B.E068AEF7@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 4961

Caius Marcius wrote:

> Neville's active courage was recognized early on (at the end of HP/SS) by an
> authoritative source.  "There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore,
> smiling. "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but
> just as much to stand up to our friends. I award ten points to Mr.
> NevilleLongbottom." Those ten points are enough to secure the House Cup for
> Gryffindor.
>
> Earlier, Neville tried to prevent Harry, Ron & Hermione from leaving the
> Tower in their quest for the stone, even threatening  to fight them.
> Although Hermione easily immobilizes him in a full body bind, Neville shows
> a spirit which will no doubt reach a fuller fruition in the volumes yet to
> come.

Yes, you're right, Caius.  I had discussed these two interactions in another
post when dissecting Neville's character, and when I was typing up this essay on
fortitude, I told myself, "Don't forget to include that bit about Neville in
PS/SS and the accolade Dumbledore gave him at the feast"--and then it dropped
right out of my brain.  Thanks for bringing it up.  It should definitely be
mentioned.

Peg




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov  1 04:18:25 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:18:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Song
References: <ce.c752fc1.272fc97b@aol.com> <39FEF230.F34E512F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <005001c043ba$c7f871e0$082f4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 4962


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Song


> Hey, list gods, why don't you make a separate section of the eGroups site
for
> filk songs? (for those who don't know this term, a filk is a song that
puts new
> words, usually spoof words, to familiar tunes). We're starting to amass
quite a
> sterling collection.


The literary critic Dwight MacDonald, in his appendix to Parodies: An
Anthology from Chaucer to Beerbohm - and After (1960) - a volume that has
for years stood upon my special bedside shelf - used the term "burlesque" in
a manner synonymous with your use of "filk" - "Burlesque is a more advanced
form [than Travesty] since it at least imitates the style of the original.
It differs from parody in that the writer is concerned with the original not
in itself but as a device for topical humor...[as opposed to] parody [which]
concentrates on the style and the thought of the original. If burlesque is
like pouring old wine into new bottles, parody is making a new wine which
tastes like the old but has a slightly lethal effect." (p. 558-559).

    - CMC (aka ray of sunshine)




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov  1 04:20:11 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 04:20:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter 17
Message-ID: <8to5lr+dc1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4963

I've agreed to "sub" and do a quick and dirty summary of this chapter.

Susan




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  1 04:34:35 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 04:34:35 -0000
Subject: The Hermione Thread (was the Ron thread)
Message-ID: <8to6gr+7fpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4964

A little surprised at the lack of response to my rant the other 
day.  :)  That one must have tanked!  All right...

I've had to lurk more than usual lately.  After reading the Ron 
thread, I reflected on some readings I've been doing lately on 
feminist representation in literature.  I have some Hermione-related 
observations and subsequent questions.

1)  Does Hermione as a character get a bad rap?  Does the fact that 
she is the only female main character (and the most well-developed 
female) adversely affect our critique of her?

2)  It seems to be generally assumed amongst fans that Hermione's 
role in the last three books will remain about the same or increase.  
Can anyone counter this prediction (with canonical evidence)?

If, for instance, R/H occurs in Book 5 or 6 I am positive Hermione's 
on-stage time will decrease.  I'll post more on this later if needed.

3)  How does our perception of Hermione, the author's perception of 
Hermione, and the other character's perception of Hermione differ?  
Are there any significant intersections?

4)  Observation:  There seems to be a *clear* correlation between 
personality and birth order in many families.  I would posit that the 
correlation can be extended to character identification.

Sorry if this isn't more clear.  :)

--Ebony

Update:  Currently, I am working on the abstract of my PoA analysis 
(which is turning out more postmodern/Derridian than psychoanalytic--
after trying for two months, I've reconciled myself to the fact that 
there are aspects of the Freud/Lacan paradigm I just don't buy).  All 
in all, it's coming along.  I'll post the draft here around Christmas 
if all goes well.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov  1 05:04:04 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:04:04 EST
Subject: Chapter 17 - the Goblet of Fire
Message-ID: <73.82cea62.2730fe44@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4965

The Triwizard tournament has been resurrected at Hogwarts with much fanfare 
after more than a century.
 
Three champions were chosen: Viktor Krum from Durmstrang, Fleur Delacour from 
Beauxbatons and Cedric Diggory from Hogwarts (Hufflepuff).Then, at the end of 
the preceding chapter Harry?s name emerges from the Goblet, despite the fact 
that there was supposed to be only one champion from each school.
 
The chapter begins with reactions to this event. ?All are astonished; some 
are angry. Madame Maxine and Karkaroff accuse ?Dumbledoreof duplicity. Snape 
immediately blames Harry and McGonagall rushes to both Dumbledore?s and 
Harry?s defense. Dumbledore asks Harry point blank if he puthis name in the 
goblet and Harry says no.
 
Bartemius Crouch Senior and Ludo Bagman are appealed to for a decision. Barty 
says that rules are rules and that the ?rules state clearly that those people 
whose names come out of the Goblet of Fire are bound to   compete in the 
tournament.? ?Harry                                                           
                                                         notices that Crouch 
looks ill, and that there were ?dark shadows beneath his eyes? that had not 
been there at the Quidditch world cup.
 
Karkaroff, who alternates in this chapter between being oily and unctuous, 
and ugly and nasty, ?complains bitterly about his inability to submit younger 
students from Durmstrang, and threatens to leave.
 
Alastor Moody appears and casts scorn on Karkaroff, reminding him that the 
champions must all compete, that it is a ?binding magical contract?. 
Karkaroff taunts Moody as paranoid, and Moody intimidateshim by insinuating 
that Karkaroff knows too much about the Dark Arts.   Moody has already made 
such insinuations about Lucius Malfoy and Severus Snape.
 
Moody electrifies the group by stating that someone is trying to kill Harry. 
Moody says it must be a very powerful wizard, someone with the ability to put 
the difficult Confundus Charm on the goblet so that it would forget that only 
3 schools compete in the tournament. He suggests that someone submitted 
Harry?s name as the only student in a fourth non-existent ?school and that 
was how he was selected. ?
 
The champions leave, and?Harry returns to the Gryffindor common room in 
shock. On the way, ?Cedric Diggory makes it clear that he does not believe 
Harry?s assertion that he didn?t put his name into the Goblet ofFire. 
?Harry?s mind whirls. He is scared of competing against older students, of 
taking on dangerous tasks, and of making a fool of himself in front of 
hundreds of people. He wonders if Moody is                          right, 
and asks himself who wants him dead. He remembers his dream in whichVoldemort 
and Wormtail had been plotting his murder.
 
He continues to be in shock, obsessing over what hashappened, while the 
Gryffindors celebrate ?riotously in the common room. Everyone ignores his 
repeated statements that he didn?t put his name in the Goblet, and that he?s 
hungry and tired. He longs to escape to the security and sanity
of Ron and Hermione. He yearns for the same type of discussions they?ve had 
in the past .
 
He is in for a rude shock. Ron does not believe him. Envy (that deadly sin) 
has obviously been simmering below the surface within Ron and it erupts. He 
suggests that of course Harry
put his name in, and that Harry wants the money, the fame, and the 
opportunity to not have to take his exams. Before going to bed, hetakes a 
nasty potshot at Harry stating that Harry will probably have to be upearly 
for a photo shoot.
 
Harry is thunderstruck and desolate. Ron had been one of the few people he 
had been sure would believe him.
 
This is a pivotal chapter. Up until now, life has been asnormal as it gets 
for Harry. Okay, his scar hurts, and he?s worried about it,                   
                                                                              
 but he has been hanging out with his friends at Hogwarts. Alastor Moody 
haseven turned Draco Malfoy into a ferret. He has the support of his 
godfather.
 
Then the rug is jerked out from under him. He?s thrust intoa major 
competition that he fears
is beyond him. He is understandably of the opinion ?that Lord Voldemort is 
plotting to kill him.And?a key element of his new identity, his new life, --- 
his friendship withRon -- is jeopardized. 
 
In the midst of the Dursley desert, yearning for any kind ofvalidation or 
even conversation, Harry holds on to his friendships withHermione, Hagrid and 
Ron. They send him birthday gifts. The Weasleys rescue himand take him to the 
Quidditch World Cup. Harry, Ron and Hermione have
figured out the riddle of the Philosopher?s Stone, all threesurmounting 
hurdles. They?ve been through many adventures. And suddenly, Harry?sbest 
friend is not there for him.
 
Susan 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 The Triwizard tournament has been resurrected at Hogwarts withmuch fanfare 
after more than a century. Three champions were chosen: Viktor Krum from 
Durmstrang,Fleur Delacour from Beauxbatons and Cedric Diggory from Hogwarts 
(Hufflepuff).Then, at the end of the preceding chapter Harry?s name emerges 
from the Goblet,despite the fact that there was supposed to be only one 
champion from each school. The chapter begins with reactions to this event. 
?All are astonished; some are angry. MadameMaxine and Karkaroff accuse 
?Dumbledoreof duplicity. Snape immediately blames Harry and McGonagall rushes 
to bothDumbledore?s and Harry?s defense. Dumbledore asks Harry point blank 
if he puthis name in the goblet and Harry says no. Bartemius Crouch Senior 
and Ludo Bagman are appealed to fora decision. Barty says that rules are 
rules and that the ?rules state clearlythat those people whose names come out 
of the Goblet of Fire are bound tocompete in the tournament.? ?Harrynotices 
that Crouch looks ill, and that there were ?dark shadows beneath hiseyes? 
.that had not been there at the Quidditch world cup. Karkaroff, who 
alternates in this chapter between being oily and unctuous, and ugly and 
nasty, ?complains bitterly about his inability to submit younger students 
from Durmstrang, and threatens to leave. 
Alastor Moody appears and casts scorn on Karkaroff, reminding him that the 
champions must all compete, that it is a ?binding magical contract?. 
Karkaroff taunts Moody as paranoid, and Moody intimidates     him by 
insinuating that Karkaroff knows too much about the Dark Arts Moody has 
already made such insinuations about Lucius Malfoy and Severus Snape. 

Moody electrifies the group by stating that someone is trying to kill Harry. 
Moody says it must be a very powerful wizard, someone with the ability to put 
the difficult Confundus Charm on the goblet so that it wouldforget that only 
3 schools compete in the tournament. He suggests that someonesubmitted 
Harry?s name as the only student in a fourth non-existent ?school and that 
was how he was selected. ? The champions leave, and?Harry returns to the 
Gryffindor common room in shock. On the way, ?Cedric Diggory makes it clear 
that he does not believe Harry who says that he didn?t put his name into the 
Goblet of Fire. ?


Harry?s mind whirls. He is scared of competing against older students, of 
taking on dangerous tasks, and of making a fool of himself in front of 
hundreds of people. He wonders if Moody is right, and asks himself who wants 
him dead. He remembers his dream in which Voldemort and Wormtail had been 
plotting his murder. 

He continues to be in shock, obsessing over what has happened, while the 
Gryffindors celebrate ?riotously in the common room. Everyone ignores his 
repeated statements that he didn?t put his name in the Goblet, and that he?s 
hungry and tired. He longs to escape to the security and sanity of Ron and 
Hermione. He yearns for the same type of discussions they?ve had in the past 
and strategies about what to do in the future.


 He is in for a rude shock. Ron does not believe him. Envy ( that deadly sin) 
has obviously been simmering below the surface within Ron and it erupts. He 
suggests that of course Harry put his name in, and that Harry wants the 
money, the fame,and the opportunity to not have to take his exams. Before 
going to bed, he takes a nasty potshot      to shoot. Harry is thunderstruck 
and desolate. Ron had been one of the few people he had been sure would 
believe him. 


                                                                        This 
is a pivotal chapter. Up until now, life has been as normal as it gets for 
Harry. Okay, his scar hurts, and he?s worried about it,but he has been 
hanging out with his friends at Hogwarts. Alastor Moody has even turned Draco 
Malfoy into a ferret.  Harry has the support of his godfather.



 Then the rug is jerked out from under him. He?s thrust intoa major 
competition that he fears is beyond him. He is understandably of the opinion 
?that Lord Voldemort is plotting to kill him.     And?a key element of his 
new identity, his new life, --- his friendship withRon -- is jeopardized.  In 
the midst of the Dursley desert, yearning for any kind ofvalidation or even 
conversation, Harry holds on to his friendships withHermione, Hagrid and Ron. 
They send him birthday gifts. The Weasleys rescue him and take him to the 
Quidditch World Cup. Harry, Ron and Hermione have figured out the riddle of 
the Philosopher?s Stone, all three surmounting hurdles. They?ve been through 
many adventures. And suddenly, Harry?s best friend is not there for him. 


Susan 
 
 
 
 
 
 




































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  1 05:15:13 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 05:15:13 -0000
Subject: What Safety Precautions?
Message-ID: <8to8t1+ugj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4966

Dumbledore said precautions have been taken so that the very high 
death toll of past Tri Wizard tournaments are not repeated, but what 
exactly were they? I think there were two main ones, the first was 
that the champions would be a few years older than in the past, a 
safety measure that failed in Harry's case. I think the other was 
that the secrecy about the tasks was deliberately made lax. 
Theoretically none of them should have known in advance that they 
were going to be fighting dragons, but I think that if they really 
had no idea what they were up against until a 50 foot tall fire 
breathing monster, far larger than any Tyrannosaurus Rex, started 
coming straight for them none of the champions would have survived.
 
Yes, I know that as Professor McGonagall was leading Harry toward the 
first task said they have wizards standing by to control the 
situation if things get out of control, but she sure didn't act like 
she was very confident of that, I think she was trying to convince 
herself that it was true more than anything else. I got the 
impression she felt like she was leading a 14 year old boy to his 
execution and felt guilty as hell about it. When Harry survived the 
encounter with only a slight wound nobody seemed more surprised or 
relieved than McGonagall. 





From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  1 10:38:16 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:38:16 -0000
Subject: UK merchandise?
In-Reply-To: <20001031235831.9516.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8torqo+6k6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4967

voicelady wrote:
> Well, that's bizarre.  I checked out your link, and realized that 
it's the same calendar I bought here in NY at Borders.  I hadn't 
realized it was the UK artwork.  So some of our US contingent could 
check there.

I don't think it is UK artwork.  I think the UK publisher has just 
taken artwork from WB in the US.

Out of interest... who is the publisher of the US edition?
And where is it printed?
(these details can be found on the back cover, opposite to the 
barcode).

The UK edition is by Danilo Calandars Limited (www.danilo.com)
And is printed by Danilo Printing Limited, London E14.

Nick




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  1 10:42:06 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:42:06 -0000
Subject: Cover Art Update
In-Reply-To: <8tnm28+egue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tos1u+av7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4968

Nice list Jim

Didn't see you mention the Proof copies/Advance Readers

We have:

English(UK)  POA
English(US)  POA
English(UK)  COS
English(UK)  PS

If only I had one of those books - I could move house, they are worth 
A LOT!

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  1 10:46:13 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:46:13 -0000
Subject: UK merchandise?
In-Reply-To: <004701c043af$a02215a0$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8tos9l+nb4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4969

Dee wrote:
> I realllly wish I could send you the funds to send that to me!  
That is a kewl cup!

If anyone wants one, please let me know your location - City and 
Country.   I will then try and calculate the cost of postage.

No guarentee in getting any more mind... will have to drive to Alton 
(in Hampshire, UK) to see if the garden centre I found the cup at has 
any more supplies delivered.   I know they have Green Ford Anglia's 
but we want Blue.

Nick.

PS. The cup costs less than $5... it's just the postage that will be 
a pain.




From dmjil at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  1 13:05:58 2000
From: dmjil at hotmail.com (Mara de Atra)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:05:58 -0000
Subject: Attn Collectors. Hebrew HP3
Message-ID: <8tp4fm+30e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4970

I 've a brand new HP3 in hebrew (not opened, because I got it twice)
and wish to exchange or sell it


Mara de Atra dmjil-at-hotmail-dot-com






From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  1 16:34:31 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:34:31 -0000
Subject: Cover Art Update- favorites
In-Reply-To: <8tos1u+av7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tpgmn+igdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4971

I'm interested in knowing what everyone's favorite covers are! Mine 
are
- Czech (P/SS) where they Czechized JKR's name ("J.K. Rowlingova") 
Rolling's bad enough, but rolling over !? 

-Catalan CoS; when, exactly was the Weasleys' Anglia Transfigured 
into a '57 Chevy?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  1 16:58:42 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:58:42 -0000
Subject: JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs
Message-ID: <8tpi42+vab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4972

Hi everyone...

JK Rowling will be appearing on the BBC Radio 4 programme "Desert 
Island Discs" on Sunday 05/11/00 (11.15-12.00GMT), and the show
will be repeated on Friday 10/11/00.  

Guests on the programme are asked to choose their favourite songs or 
pieces of music (eight in total, I think) plus one luxury item to 
take to an imaginary desert island.  I don't usually listen to it 
myself, so perhaps some kind R4 listener can give more details of the 
layout of the programme?  There will be a lot of chat between the 
songs, so I guess it will be worthy of our attention!

The only other thing I've heard about the show is that JKR has 
reportedly chosen REM's "Everybody Hurts" as one of the
songs/pieces. 

Neil





From stephanie75 at aol.com  Wed Nov  1 18:16:40 2000
From: stephanie75 at aol.com (stephanie75 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:16:40 EST
Subject: Some Questions, if I may
Message-ID: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4973

Hello everyone,
I have only been on this list about a week and have never posted.  I have 
enjoyed the threads, especially the Marauder's Map. I was going to bring up a 
few questions that have been bothering me for awhile. I don't mean to 
interrupt the current topic, so if it upsets anyone, or if these have been 
discussed before, I'm sorry. 

How had Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row? If they haven't won the 
Quidditch cup alll of those years also, where are they getting the points? 
Cheating? They don't seem to be the most intelligent, was Snape giving them 
extra points or something? Something's fishy!!

In PoA, Hermine was allowed to use a timeturner to take extra classes. It 
says the use of one is closely watched by the ministry. I suppose you can't 
use it to change history or prevent deaths, I imagine that is why they are 
under such supervision by the ministry, if anyone could do it,no one would 
ever die or make a mistake etc. But couldn't a powerful wizard like Voldemort 
get one from somewhere? Wouldn't he keep going back to one of the three times 
he has had Harry(since he has been grown) and kill him straight away instead 
of wasting time and telling Harry how he accomplished coming back? 

And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he hates 
Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry thinks he's special 
and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by Dumbledore I would think he 
was a respnsible adult. Instead he acts like a jealous 10 year old holding a 
grudge against an innocent person. He has never given Harry a chance.I would 
think he would respect him a little for all the good things he's done. 
Vanquishing Voldemort several times! And why does he like Draco so much?  I 
just don't see how he is innately good when he treats the good students bad 
(not just Harry) and the ones who will probably end up  being death eaters, 
he treats nice! 
Again, sorry if I interrupted !!         Stephanie    


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  1 19:01:41 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 19:01:41 -0000
Subject: UK merchandise?
In-Reply-To: <8tnkqg+gbgm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tppal+5ua3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4974

Nick wrote:

> Talking of merchandise...
> 
> I've found a mug with a Blue Ford Anglia on it.
> 
> (Neil... I have one for you, let me know your address)

People are always telling me I'm a mug...

Nick!  Where on earth did you find that?  I'll e-mail you my address 
and all my worldly goods (Harry Potter books excluded) this 
instant...The pic looks like an early Ford Anglia, c. 1940s, rather 
than the 1960s model on the front of CoS (UK) but it's still dead 
cool.

At one point, some may recall, I was pursuing diecast models of Ford 
Anglias, but I ran out of time and energy.  Perhaps there will be 
some in stock for Christmas (hopefully without a WB logo).

Neil (actually not really interested in cars at all, other than 
above) 





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov  1 19:36:32 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 19:36:32 -0000
Subject: Some Questions, if I may
In-Reply-To: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8tprc0+6jfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4975

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, stephanie75 at a... wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I have only been on this list about a week and have never posted.  I 
have 
> enjoyed the threads, especially the Marauder's Map. I was going to 
bring up a 
> few questions that have been bothering me for awhile. I don't mean 
to 
> interrupt the current topic, so if it upsets anyone, or if these 
have been 
> discussed before, I'm sorry. 
> 
> How had Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row? If they 
haven't won the 
> Quidditch cup alll of those years also, where are they getting the 
points? 
> Cheating? They don't seem to be the most intelligent, was Snape 
giving them 
> extra points or something? Something's fishy!!
> 

OR perhaps the other Houses were losing points and Slytherin managed 
to hold onto theirs. I would think the Weasley Twins lose Gryffindor 
points quite a bit.

> In PoA, Hermine was allowed to use a timeturner to take extra 
classes. It 
> says the use of one is closely watched by the ministry. I suppose 
you can't 
> use it to change history or prevent deaths, I imagine that is why 
they are 
> under such supervision by the ministry, if anyone could do it,no one 
would 
> ever die or make a mistake etc. But couldn't a powerful wizard like 
Voldemort 
> get one from somewhere? Wouldn't he keep going back to one of the 
three times 
> he has had Harry(since he has been grown) and kill him straight away 
instead 
> of wasting time and telling Harry how he accomplished coming back? 
>

That's an interesting thought. 
 
> And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he 
hates 
> Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry thinks he's 
special 
> and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by Dumbledore I would 
think he 
> was a respnsible adult. Instead he acts like a jealous 10 year old 
holding a 
> grudge against an innocent person. He has never given Harry a 
chance.I would 
> think he would respect him a little for all the good things he's 
done. 
> Vanquishing Voldemort several times! And why does he like Draco so 
much?  I 
> just don't see how he is innately good when he treats the good 
students bad 
> (not just Harry) and the ones who will probably end up  being death 
eaters, 
> he treats nice! 

Snape is a very complex man with rather poor interpersonal 
communication skills. (I think he could do with a bit of psychologic 
counselling) I would like to think that Snape does respect Harry deep 
down, but I think he believes Harry is going about things the wrong 
way. 

:-)Milz




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov  1 20:26:28 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:26:28 -0000
Subject: Some Questions, if I may
In-Reply-To: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8tpu9k+jnac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4976

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, stephanie75 at a... wrote:
Hi, Stephanie, welcome to the list!
	
> In PoA, Hermine was allowed to use a timeturner to take extra classes. It 
> says the use of one is closely watched by the ministry. I suppose you can't 
> use it to change history or prevent deaths, I imagine that is why they are 
> under such supervision by the ministry, if anyone could do it,no one would 
> ever die or make a mistake etc. But couldn't a powerful wizard like Voldemort 
> get one from somewhere? Wouldn't he keep going back to one of the three times 
> he has had Harry(since he has been grown) and kill him straight away instead 
> of wasting time and telling Harry how he accomplished coming back? 

	I would think Voldemort would be extremely wary of doing this. If 
he were successful in preventing his own defeat, then he would be 
facing a very dangerous rival -- himself! If he goes back after the 
resurrection in GOF and kills Harry at birth, then Harry's blood will 
not be available to resurrect him...resulting in a major paradox which 
will probably cause the entire alternate universe to fold up like a 
paper hat ;)  (thanks to Pratchett for the simile).
 
>> And why does he like Draco so much?  I 
> just don't see how he is innately good when he treats the good students bad 
> (not just Harry) and the ones who will probably end up  being death eaters, 
> he treats nice! 
> Again, sorry if I interrupted !!         

	Snape gets discussed alot! Snape is probably *good*, ie, not a 
Dark Wizard. That doesn't mean he has to be nice. There are loads of 
Snapish people in the world (I know some), who nonetheless manage to 
hold onto their jobs. They can make very loyal hard-working employees, 
since they know there are lots of bosses who wouldn't put up with them. 
The downside for the boss is that it is hard to get other people to 
work with them. This could be one reason the Dark Arts job is hard to 
fill. Also, I have the feeling there is no love lost between Poppy 
Pomfrey and Snape. Why does Snape have Filch tend to his injured leg 
instead of Pomfrey? (in SS)
	As for sucking up to  Malfoy, we have seen that Draco  tends to 
talk too much. Snape IMO is cultivating him as a source of information.
Pippin





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Nov  1 21:23:09 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:23:09 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Questions, if I may
In-Reply-To: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001101130837.0225e220@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4977

At 01:16 PM 11/1/00 -0500, stephanie75 at aol.com wrote:
>How had Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row? If they haven't won the
>Quidditch cup alll of those years also, where are they getting the points?
>Cheating? They don't seem to be the most intelligent, was Snape giving them
>extra points or something? Something's fishy!!

I imagine Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle are not typical of the intellectual
caliber of Slytherins.

>In PoA, Hermine was allowed to use a timeturner to take extra classes. It
>says the use of one is closely watched by the ministry. I suppose you can't
>use it to change history or prevent deaths, I imagine that is why they are
>under such supervision by the ministry, if anyone could do it,no one would
>ever die or make a mistake etc. But couldn't a powerful wizard like Voldemort
>get one from somewhere? Wouldn't he keep going back to one of the three times
>he has had Harry(since he has been grown) and kill him straight away instead
>of wasting time and telling Harry how he accomplished coming back?

I think toying around with the Time Turner is very risky amd V knows it.  All
the time anomalies could result in things like V getting erased from History
altogether!

Still, every time V and the Time Turner are mentioned in the same breath, I 
think
about my "Slytherin Ouroboros" theory, which states that the reason some 
editions
of _CoS_ have Dumbledore say V was Salazaar Slytherin's *ancestor* was that V
went back in time to father SS, who begat the Slytherin line leading to V, 
who went
back in time to father SS, who...ad infinitum.

>And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he hates
>Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry thinks he's special
>and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by Dumbledore I would think he
>was a respnsible adult. Instead he acts like a jealous 10 year old holding a
>grudge against an innocent person. He has never given Harry a chance.I would
>think he would respect him a little for all the good things he's done.
>Vanquishing Voldemort several times!

I think Snape wants to be the big hero in the war against V.  He resents
the fact that this no-account son of his old rival is doing it all instead of
"Sir Severus, Order of Merlin"...



                                                 -- Dave




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Nov  1 21:41:43 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 21:41:43 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Age (Was Whither Quidditch?)
In-Reply-To: <8tmjo3+sa5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tq2mn+e38q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4978

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
"That brings up the whole question of how old Hermione is for almost 
the entire school year. Is the cut-off date really Sept 1, no 
variation? Then Hermione turned 12 two weeks after the start of PS/SS 
and she is almost a year older than Harry. > 

<snip>

You get your mail from Hogwarts on your 11th birthday, you come to 
school on the following September 1, no matter where they fall 
relative to each other. 
> 
But Hermione is referred to as being 13 at one point in PA. (To be 
fair, Harry and Hermione together are referred to as a pair of 13-
year-old wizards). So maybe common sense DID enter into it in her 
case, being as bright as she is, and she actually entered Hogwarts 
while she was still 10 and turned 11 two weeks later. To me, that 
makes perfect sense. And if we accept the idea that intention drives 
most magic, the system would nicely adjust itself to accept Hermione 
when it made sense to do so."

Since my birthday is on September 18th (day before Hermione's!!), I 
was always a little younger than my classmates. I started 
Kindergarten at the age of 4, but soon turned 5.  Accordingly, I was 
16 at the start of my senior year in High School and graduated at 17. 
My take on the Hermione age issue is that everyone in the *year* they 
turn 11 gets a "You've been accepted to Hogwarts letter" prior to the 
start of the school year, regardless of their birthdate.  Harry 
starts to receive the "letters from no one" *seven* whole days before 
his 11th birthday.  When Hagrid finally gets it to him, it states "We 
await you reply no later than July 31."  The fact that Harry receives 
his letter on his birthday is serendipitious.  With this in mind I 
agree that Hermione was 10 at the start of her first year, but soon 
turned 11.  And this is Hogwarts we're talking about, who's to say 
the same age regulations as the Muggle world are in place?

Trina  




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  1 23:12:24 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:12:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs
References: <8tpi42+vab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f801c04459$328f3cc0$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4979

Neil,
I apologize.

I forget for a moment that the UK'ians put their dates backwards, and I was
wondering why you were announcing something that occurred May 11th and Oct
11th!

Hands Neil the pillow to bonk her with!



Duh!

Dee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying Ford Anglia" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:58 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs


> Hi everyone...
>
> JK Rowling will be appearing on the BBC Radio 4 programme "Desert
> Island Discs" on Sunday 05/11/00 (11.15-12.00GMT), and the show
> will be repeated on Friday 10/11/00.
>
> Guests on the programme are asked to choose their favourite songs or
> pieces of music (eight in total, I think) plus one luxury item to
> take to an imaginary desert island.  I don't usually listen to it
> myself, so perhaps some kind R4 listener can give more details of the
> layout of the programme?  There will be a lot of chat between the
> songs, so I guess it will be worthy of our attention!
>
> The only other thing I've heard about the show is that JKR has
> reportedly chosen REM's "Everybody Hurts" as one of the
> songs/pieces.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov  1 22:38:51 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 22:38:51 -0000
Subject: The Hermione Thread (was the Ron thread)
In-Reply-To: <8to6gr+7fpj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tq61r+cce9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4980

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony " <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> A little surprised at the lack of response to my rant the other 
> day.  :)  That one must have tanked!  All right...
> 
> I've had to lurk more than usual lately.  After reading the Ron 
> thread, I reflected on some readings I've been doing lately on 
> feminist representation in literature.  I have some Hermione-
related 
> observations and subsequent questions.
> 
> 1)  Does Hermione as a character get a bad rap?  Does the fact that 
> she is the only female main character (and the most well-developed 
> female) adversely affect our critique of her?

i would have said "no" until i read the most recent comments about 
her and about Molly......but one could argue we've been hard on Ron 
lately....(while Snape has his apologists -- oh, well, if I could 
just get that this is LITERATURE rather than reality, I'd probably 
understand better)


> 
> 2)  It seems to be generally assumed amongst fans that Hermione's 
> role in the last three books will remain about the same or 
increase.  
> Can anyone counter this prediction (with canonical evidence)?
> 
> If, for instance, R/H occurs in Book 5 or 6 I am positive 
Hermione's 
> on-stage time will decrease.  I'll post more on this later if 
needed.

This goes back to my thoughts about how most of the prominent female 
characters were wives/partners/mothers or objects of desire. 

It'll be fun to watch. I wonder, though, since she JKR's alter ego....
what we need is a grown-up advisory council to JKR, so that we could 
directly convey our thoughts to her.


> 
> 3)  How does our perception of Hermione, the author's perception of 
> Hermione, and the other character's perception of Hermione differ?  
> Are there any significant intersections?
> 
> 4)  Observation:  There seems to be a *clear* correlation between 
> personality and birth order in many families.  I would posit that 
the 
> correlation can be extended to character identification.
> 
> Sorry if this isn't more clear.  :)
> 
> --Ebony
> 
> Update:  Currently, I am working on the abstract of my PoA analysis 
> (which is turning out more postmodern/Derridian than psychoanalytic-
-
> after trying for two months, I've reconciled myself to the fact 
that 
> there are aspects of the Freud/Lacan paradigm I just don't buy).  
All 
> in all, it's coming along.  I'll post the draft here around 
Christmas 
> if all goes well.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov  1 22:44:42 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 22:44:42 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
In-Reply-To: <200010312131.NAA01083@webeye.marty.net>
Message-ID: <8tq6cq+a4rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4981

And who dressed as Harry?

We had a wonderful Halloween here in Ann Arbor. Very little (imho 
silly) uproar about Satanic influences, and lots and lots of people
in costume, with pumpkins and appropriate decorations.

My one year old was a yellow and black bumblebee..my son was HP.
I WILL post a picture once they are developed and scanned. My partner
made him a robe -- it is light purple with silver stars --- and he had
a pointed plush purple wizard's hat -- and proudly proclaimed to 
everyone that he was Harry Powder. He also told any skeleton that he 
met that he would put them in AzkeBAN! So much for them.... 

Does anyone know how other countries celebrate Halloween if they do?
I know a little about Celtic commemoration - Samhain -- and 
traditions in Wales and Cornwall...but anyone know about other 
countries?

Susan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov  1 22:50:47 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:50:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Questions, if I may
References: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c04456$2df549a0$6ac44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 4982


----- Original Message -----
From: <stephanie75 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 1:16 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Questions, if I may


> Hello everyone,
> I have only been on this list about a week and have never posted.  I have
> enjoyed the threads, especially the Marauder's Map. I was going to bring
up a
> few questions that have been bothering me for awhile. I don't mean to
> interrupt the current topic, so if it upsets anyone, or if these have been
> discussed before, I'm sorry.
>
> How had Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row? If they haven't won
the
> Quidditch cup alll of those years also, where are they getting the points?
>
I blame Fred and George.  Ron has indicated on several occasions that they
were renowned for losing Gryffindor points on account of their sundry
antics.
>
> In PoA, Hermine was allowed to use a timeturner to take extra classes. It
> says the use of one is closely watched by the ministry. I suppose you
can't
> use it to change history or prevent deaths, I imagine that is why they are
> under such supervision by the ministry, if anyone could do it,no one would
> ever die or make a mistake etc. But couldn't a powerful wizard like
Voldemort
> get one from somewhere? Wouldn't he keep going back to one of the three
times
> he has had Harry(since he has been grown) and kill him straight away
instead
> of wasting time and telling Harry how he accomplished coming back?


Hermione explains to Harry that "awful things have happened when wizards
have meddled with time....Loads of them ended up killing their past or
future selves by mistake!"  Maybe Voldy, in a rare exercise of
self-restraint, just doesn't want to risk going there.

>
> And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he hates
> Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry thinks he's
special
> and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by Dumbledore I would think he
> was a respnsible adult. Instead he acts like a jealous 10 year old holding
a
> grudge against an innocent person.

Someday you'll work in an office, and then you will understand that it's all
office politics. Seriously, Snape's hatred for Harry - while he is at the
same time willing to protect him -  is one of the ambiguities which make the
whole HP saga so endlessly fascinating. But remember that "responsible
adult" is always a relative term.  Snape seems to be exceptionally dutiful
in the discharge of his responsibilities, and is highly skilled in his area
of Potion expertise, but that doesn't rule out his also having a strong
irrational streak.   If you read Muggle history, you will learn that the
petty personality clashes have often been the genesis of major political
conflicts (e.g, Jefferson v. Hamilton, Danton v. Robiespierre, Trotsky v.
Lenin).

 He has never given Harry a chance.I would
> think he would respect him a little for all the good things he's done.

Oftentimes reminding  highly partisan people of the good deeds of their
opponent will only serve to augment their antagonism - just ask a Democrat
about Reagan's contribution toward ending the Cold War, or ask a Republican
about Clinton's effectiveness in fostering economic growth.

    - CMC




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  1 23:00:38 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 23:00:38 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001101230038.009073d0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 4983

At 17:12 11/01/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Neil,
>I apologize.
>
>I forget for a moment that the UK'ians put their dates backwards, and I was
>wondering why you were announcing something that occurred May 11th and Oct
>11th!
>
>Hands Neil the pillow to bonk her with!

No, really.  I'm a pacifist - even with pillows.

Okay, for the benefit of any other people confused by Ye Olde English dating
system, the Desert Island Discs programme is being broadcast on Sunday the
fifth of November (Bonfire Night) at fifteen after eleven of the clock and
repeated on Friday the tenth of November at nine of the clock.  Is it
possible for people to tune into the BBC over the internet?  I'm not sure.
Maybe Nick can advise on that.  I'll tune in and record it though.

A couple of friends of mine work for the BBC, so I'll see if they can dig up
anything interesting.  

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From john at walton.to  Thu Nov  2 00:11:23 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 00:11:23 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs
Message-ID: <8tqbfb+hn92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4984

Neil Ward at neilward at dircon.co.uk wrote:

> Okay, for the benefit of any other people confused by Ye Olde English 
dating
> system, the Desert Island Discs programme is being broadcast on Sunday 
the
> fifth of November (Bonfire Night) at fifteen after eleven of the clock and
> repeated on Friday the tenth of November at nine of the clock.  Is it
> possible for people to tune into the BBC over the internet?  I'm not sure.
> Maybe Nick can advise on that.  I'll tune in and record it though.

For those Liberal Arts students among us, that's when the big hand is at the 
three (3) and the little hand is at the eleven (11).

--John (who IS an Arts student so will be really peeved if he gets flamed)

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 01:45:44 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 01:45:44 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
In-Reply-To: <8tq6cq+a4rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tqh08+oil3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4985


> And who dressed as Harry?

I did!

Hey, you over there stop laughing!  
I didn't go trick or treating, errrr confeesion to make, I went to a 
few friends houses....basically I was only passing out candy.  I 
would post a copy but I don't have a scanner (sighs).

I had black hair and green contacts.  I got a pair of Harry glasses 
from the WB store, and my Mother sewed a long black robe.  I painted 
on a scar,too.  I also wore a red sweater (jumper) and a gold tie  
(Gryffindor colours!)....I thought it was cute but the hair spray was 
hell to wash out and it got on EVERYTHING.  

I wanted to see about maybe doing a reading of PS/SS at my local 
library in costume, but I've not gotten in touch with anyone yet.

Scott




> My one year old was a yellow and black bumblebee..my son was HP.

AHHH! So they were both dressed in HP themed attire. One was Harry 
and the other was Dumbledore as an animagus!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov  2 01:52:24 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:52:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 17 - the Goblet of Fire
References: <73.82cea62.2730fe44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0446f$8c9e0a00$c0c64b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 4986


----- Original Message -----
From: <Schlobin at aol.com>
To: <HPFORGROWNUPS at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:04 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 17 - the Goblet of Fire


The Triwizard tournament has been resurrected at Hogwarts with much fanfare
after more than a century.

Three champions were chosen: Viktor Krum from Durmstrang, Fleur Delacour
from
Beauxbatons and Cedric Diggory from Hogwarts (Hufflepuff).Then, at the end
of
the preceding chapter Harrys name emerges from the Goblet, despite the fact
that there was supposed to be only one champion from each school

 My favorite of Mary Grandpre's wonderful illustrations was Chap 17 in GoF -
a very small and abashed Harry casting an immense shadow as he prepares to
face Dumbledore and the other contestants.....

    - CMC




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Nov  2 02:32:49 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 02:32:49 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
In-Reply-To: <8tqh08+oil3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tqjoh+qlf4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4987

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > And who dressed as Harry?
> 
> I did!
> 
> Hey, you over there stop laughing!  
> I didn't go trick or treating, errrr confeesion to make, I went to 
a 
> few friends houses....basically I was only passing out candy.  I 
> would post a copy but I don't have a scanner (sighs).
> 
> I had black hair and green contacts.  I got a pair of Harry glasses 
> from the WB store, and my Mother sewed a long black robe.  I 
painted 
> on a scar,too.  I also wore a red sweater (jumper) and a gold tie  
> (Gryffindor colours!)....I thought it was cute but the hair spray 
was 
> hell to wash out and it got on EVERYTHING. 



Scott, please mail me a picture and I will scan it for you. 
> 
> I wanted to see about maybe doing a reading of PS/SS at my local 
> library in costume, but I've not gotten in touch with anyone yet.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > My one year old was a yellow and black bumblebee..my son was HP.
> 
> AHHH! So they were both dressed in HP themed attire. One was Harry 
> and the other was Dumbledore as an animagus!


Mais certainment






From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Nov  2 02:39:43 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 02:39:43 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Satanic Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <007601c04356$908ecce0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8tqk5f+l2e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4988

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforths_Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> Listen,
> 
> I don't know whether I should even talk about this just now. Some 
members of
> one of the churches I work in took to circulating an article from a 
(small,
> German) Christian magazine quoting an interview in which Jo 
blasphemes
> profusely and pronounces herself a card-carrying Satanist. As I 
found out
> later, some religious creep happened upon that piece published back 
in July
> by www.onion.com (for the record, I didn't really find it funny) 
and spammed
> his whole address book with a letter quoting the article as though 
it were
> real news. The blithering idiots who received his spam happily 
dashed off to
> publish their "news," content to have documentary proof of what 
they'd know
> all along.
> 
> I'm so mad I could eat the carpet. As a dedicated Christian, I 
think we
> should harbor at least a little respect for what that guy said about
> treating other people the way we would like to be treated 
ourselves. But
> perhaps I'm misjudging ... after all that was 2000 years ago. And 
besides,
> said guy was probably just another one of those liberal-hippie-long 
hairs.
> Or maybe the author of the article likes being slandered and 
figured JKR
> would enjoy it as much as he does.
> 
> It's just too much. I've got the editor's phone number and hope 
he'll print
> a retraction. I also hope I didn't offend anybody with my rant. If 
it were
> members of some other faith doing it, I don't think I'd feel so 
hurt.
> 
> Anyway ... back to our regular programming ...
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat



I'm sorry this happened, Mike. It is very hard when people with whom 
we think we share beliefs do something like this.

I was reading some of the History of Halloween, and I noticed that
some of the anti-Halloween posts seem to assume that witches today
worship Satan and evil.

I'm wondering if the FAQs planned include something about:

There are real witches/wiccans practicing today.
They do not worship Satan. They are not evil

The witches and wizards in HP do not reflect and are not like
real witches. The witches and wizards in HP are both good and evil.

HP is really a morality play. It is about a battle between good and 
evil. If one were to assign Zoorastrian roles, Albus Dumbledore would
be Michael and Lord Voldemort would be Lucifer.

Harry Potter and his friends are against evil and against Voldemort.

Susan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov  2 03:01:23 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:01:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reactions? excerpt from the LA times interview
References: <85.1fdbe8c.2728fe63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004801c04479$2f906e20$34dd4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 4989


----- Original Message -----
From: <Schlobin at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:26 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reactions? excerpt from the LA times interview



>      Her own books, said Rowling, "are written to please me, and I am
clearly
> an adult. I don't write what I think 8-year-olds would find funny. I write
> what I would find funny."

"We wrote cartoons for grownups, that was the secret," longtime Warner
storyman Michael Maltese said in a 1971 interview [as opposed to Disney,
which took an increasingly juvenile approach]

    - Steve Scheidner, That's All, Folks! The Art of Warner Brothers
Animation, p. 21


Maybe this explains why so many adults--among them,
> suspense writer Stephen King--

Steven King likes HP? Oh well, there's some good in everyone, I
guess..........

    - CMC




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Thu Nov  2 03:06:34 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:06:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 231
Message-ID: <4a.ce78bda.2732343a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4990


In a message dated 11/1/00 11:23:06 AM, Dave writes:

 I was wondering if any of  you were 

from Southern California and if so would those here like to have 

a get together?

I'm from San Diego- would be fun!
Aylihael



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Thu Nov  2 03:07:00 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:07:00 -0000
Subject: Telling Time (wasJKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs)
In-Reply-To: <8tqbfb+hn92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tqlok+shvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4991

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "John Walton" <john at w...> wrote:

> For those Liberal Arts students among us, that's when the big hand 
is at the three (3) and the little hand is at the eleven (11).
> 
> --John (who IS an Arts student so will be really peeved if he gets 
flamed)


LOL!  I was in the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences at U of 
Illinois where the running joke was that LAS stood for "Lost and 
Seeking"  

Trina (who only remembered to turn her clocks back after she got up 
Sunday morning)







From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 03:09:19 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:09:19 -0000
Subject: Shipping
Message-ID: <8tqlsv+7s14@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4992

No, this is not a post about the transportation of objects....

I'm talking about pairings, you know H/H, H/H, and (errr) H/H.  (Yes, 
I/m with Penny on this one!)  I know that most of you have come to 
the concensus that neiter Harry or Ron will hook up with Hermione, 
b/c they are likely to develop serious romantic relationships later 
in life.  

Until recently I agreed with this but now I'm not too sure.  After 
all I stopped to think and in the HP canon we only really know two 
couples-  Lily and James, and Molly and Arthur.  So to make my point 
they both met and fell in love at Hogwarts.  This, IMO, seems to 
statistically point to H,R and Herm. all finding their life partner 
at Hogwarts.

And as far as Harry and Ron and go, I can really relate to their 
actions at the yule ball...Homecoming was last week and I really want 
to ask this girl but didn't (besides she had a date anyway.)

Scott




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  2 03:17:31 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 21:17:31 -0600
Subject: Duck! More movie stuff!
Message-ID: <3A00DCCB.F9B8C4D6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 4993

Greetings, O patient and tolerant Potter fans, who let the Alan Rickman
maniac post here.....here's a few movie snippets I got off an Alan
Rickman guestbook. No idea as to accuracy, but I thought I'd throw them
out since they were quoting other sources. Please, please tell me to
shut up if I'm always repeating stuff you guys already know. And
honestly, I'm not familiar with British papers and magazines--I could be
quoting the equivalent of the National Enquirer or the Star or
something. Ugh. Rita Skeeter indeed.

--Amanda

----------------------------------
According to Empire Online today, the producers of "Harry Potter" are
going to do their best to make sure no one sees what the characters look
like:

"...the heavies attached to the Harry Potter production team have
managed to annoy yet more upstanding citizens. Last week we heard that
the villagers of Goathland had been snubbed by filming taking place in
Yorkshire. This time it's the students at Oxford University that are
feeling the effects of the security surrounding the movie.

The movie version of JK Rowling's best-seller is currently being filmed
on location in the City of Dreaming Spires, but such is the secrecy
surrounding the film that students are being frisked whenever they
approach the set. 'If they see any of us with a camera, they try to
confiscate it,' a student at Christchurch College told Empire Online.
'Even if you put your hands in your pockets, they think you're up to
something suspicious. It's completely upset life at college - and we
don't even get to watch them filming.'

The filmmakers have gone to great lengths to prevent prying eyes from
seeing what is actually being filmed in the college's ancient cloisters.
Entrances to the set are blocked by a combination of college and studio
security and a lecture room which overlooked filming has been locked
since filming kicked off on Monday."

------------------------
Da man is weilding his influence on the set of HP... An article in the
Daily Record credits AR with leading them to their "Oliver Wood" the
captain of the Quidditch team for what ever house it is HP is in. And it
goes a little something like this:

Sean's big break came when he was cast in Alan Rickman's movie The
Winter Guest. Alan, who plays baddie Severus Snape in the new film,
spotted Sean's talent, organised an agent for him - and Sean won his big
part in August.  Sean said: "I really owe a lot to Alan Rickman for
having faith in me and being a friend. It's a bit daunting to be here.
It has been really exciting on set and it's all down to me now." Full
article found here
http://www.record-mail.co.uk/shtml/FEATURES/P15S1.shtml

-------------------------------
According to Saturday's Telegraph, Richard Harris has arranged a share
of marketing profits on "Harry Potter," and John Cleese has managed a
larger one.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003724995426894&rtmo=0iRJRJKq&atmo=tttttttd&pg=/et/00/10/28/npot28.html

(this is a huge URL, hope it comes through)






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  2 03:24:40 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:24:40 -0000
Subject: The Hermione Thread (was the Ron thread)
In-Reply-To: <8tq61r+cce9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tqmpo+5p8u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4994

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:

> This goes back to my thoughts about how most of the prominent 
female 
> characters were wives/partners/mothers or objects of desire. 
> 
> It'll be fun to watch. I wonder, though, since she JKR's alter 
ego....
> what we need is a grown-up advisory council to JKR, so that we 
could 
> directly convey our thoughts to her.
> 

I'm all for it, Susan!  Not that we should dictate to her what she 
writes or pressure her in any way, mind you.  I think she's doing a 
good job on her own.  But I would love to know what she thinks of the 
better fanfic out there (for some reason I get the feeling the fic 
she's read has been B-quality or lower).  And it would be great if 
HP4GU turned into an official grownup fan base.  I am sure Penny, 
Melanie, and the FAQ team are working towards that.

BTW, count me in for the Knight Bus Tour--missed the discussion last 
week.  Have any other Quidditch players RSVPed?

--Ebony




From raharris at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 03:47:19 2000
From: raharris at yahoo.com (robert harris)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:47:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shipping
Message-ID: <20001102034719.90580.qmail@web218.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4995

--- Scott  <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> And as far as Harry and Ron and go, I can really
> relate to their actions at the yule
ball...Homecoming 
> was last week and I really want to ask this girl

Umm -- I couldn't ask this girl out, so eventually she

asked me.  We celebrated our tenth anniversary last 
June . . . 

My first post to the group -- I just finished the Yule
Ball chapter last night, will read about the Second
Task tonight.  Am not reading these posts too
carefully yet because I have not finished GoF, but
love what I have read so far!  Glad I found this
group!  Cheers --
Robert, North Jersey Highlands


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  2 03:54:38 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 21:54:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculations re: Cho (was: Thoughts on  Relationships)
References: <8tlk8m+af69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A00E57E.F184231A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 4996

Ryan Goertz wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
>   In reading through the posts where many predictions have been
> made as to who will end up dating who I would like to share some
> thoughts I had after reading Goblet of Fire. After several
> hours of processing and internalizing GOF I began thinking
> about the end of the relationship between Cho and Cedric.
> <snip>
>
> What I am guessing as a possible storyline is that Harry will
> probably try to approach her and she will be very stand-offish
> around him. She might even resent him for the death of Cedric. I
> am doubting it, but who knows? It is all up to the imagination
> of Rowling. If it happens I guess it will be gradual.

I may have expressed this before; can't remember.  I would like to see a
scene, and I think it could be lovely if handled well, where Cho and Harry
talk about Cedric's death.  Harry talked with Cedric's parents, and he found
it was an ordeal, and so did they, but they needed to hear what had happened
to their son, and he had to tell them.

The relationship that Cho had with Cedric isn't one where she would be
considered the next of kin, and so she wasn't there when Harry talked with
Cedric's parents.  We don't know EXACTLY what that relationship was: did
they love each other?  She was Cedric's hostage at for the second task,
after all.  She seems to be shaken by his death; Harry noticed her tears at
the feast where Dumbledore asks the students to acknowledge and remember
Cedric.  So at least we know that Cedric was important to Cho and vice
versa.

And so, although Dumbledore has asked the students not to ask Harry what
happened after the third task, Harry might feel that he should talk to Cho,
or at least offer to talk to her, to tell her whatever she might want to
know about how Cedric died--particularly if he senses that she's continuing
to hurt over his memory.  Or perhaps she might approach him, saying, "I
don't know if you would be willing to talk to me about it, but I loved him,
and it's killing me not to know.  Can you at least tell me what happened?
Did he suffer?"

If they could talk about this, it might be a comfort to Cho.  It would
probably be exquisitely painful for Harry, but if he cares about Cho, it
might help him a little bit to set her mind at ease about THAT--at least he
didn't suffer.  And who knows what the conversation might lead to?  (Scenes
where your hero is in exquisite pain are GREAT for character development.)

The interesting thing about such a conversation is that it would give us a
really good look at Cho's character for the first time, something we haven't
really had, although Harry has been interested in her for a while.  It would
arouse our sympathy toward her, for example, if she were very diffident
about asking Harry for fear that reliving the memory would hurt HIM.  It has
always struck me as rather odd that a number of fans seem to dislike
Cho--this shows up in fan fiction a lot--and I've speculated in past
messages that it might be because people are emotionally invested in
Hermione, whereas they don't quite know whether they should be with Cho
since we don't know what Rowling is going to do with her.

It could be a heartbreaking scene to read.  And that's another
consideration--it would take a great deal of maturity for them to have it:
Harry's grown up a lot in GoF, but maybe not enough to hold this
conversation with Cho, nor she with him.

We'll have to wait and see in the next book.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  2 04:11:19 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 22:11:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Satanic Conspiracy
References: <8tmn1m+eq14@eGroups.com> <007601c04356$908ecce0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <3A00E967.FA0FA699@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 4997

Aberforths_Goat wrote:

> Listen,
>
> I don't know whether I should even talk about this just now. Some members of
> one of the churches I work in took to circulating an article from a (small,
> German) Christian magazine quoting an interview in which Jo blasphemes
> profusely and pronounces herself a card-carrying Satanist. As I found out
> later, some religious creep happened upon that piece published back in July
> by www.onion.com (for the record, I didn't really find it funny) and spammed
> his whole address book with a letter quoting the article as though it were
> real news. The blithering idiots who received his spam happily dashed off to
> publish their "news," content to have documentary proof of what they'd know
> all along.
>
> I'm so mad I could eat the carpet. As a dedicated Christian, I think we
> should harbor at least a little respect for what that guy said about
> treating other people the way we would like to be treated ourselves. But
> perhaps I'm misjudging ... after all that was 2000 years ago. And besides,
> said guy was probably just another one of those liberal-hippie-long hairs.
> Or maybe the author of the article likes being slandered and figured JKR
> would enjoy it as much as he does.
>
> It's just too much. I've got the editor's phone number and hope he'll print
> a retraction. I also hope I didn't offend anybody with my rant. If it were
> members of some other faith doing it, I don't think I'd feel so hurt.

I understand that you feel angry, but am unclear: are you angry at The Onion or
at the Christian magazine that reprinted it, thinking it news?  Is the editor
you want to publish a retraction the Onion or the Christian magazine?  (The
Onion, for our UK friends, is a print and Internet newspaper which is entirely
parody.  It is published out of Madison, Wisconsin, I believe, and it skewers
absolutely everyone under the sun.)  If you're trying to get the Onion to print
a retraction, it's probably a lost cause: parody is what they DO.

But if you're talking about the second magazine, I understand your point.  Like
you, I'm a Christian, and it's painful to see others who claim to hate JKR's
work BECAUSE they are Christians (and PARTICULARLY after all the work I've been
doing to trace Harry's moral development in the series.  I mean, c'mon!  Haven't
they ever bothered to read these books they're condemning?)  It's even more
painful to see them fall for the Onion's parody, hook, line and sinker.  Their
doing so both makes them look like knee-jerk, stupid fools, and moreover, it
causes damage to the reputation of Rowling and her work, which we love, by
spreading a stupid (parody) lie about Rowling even further.  Nobody is a winner
here, except perhaps the Onion, who can laugh at us all.

Ouch.

*Sigh*  I hope that Christian magazine prints a retraction.

And makes a little more effort to check their sources in the future.  Yeesh.
Talk about flunking Journalism 101.

Peg




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  2 04:09:16 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 22:09:16 -0600
Subject: Hermione
Message-ID: <3A00E8EC.CFC3E365@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 4998

Hi everyone --

Simon wrote:

> She shows the obsessive 'I am going to fail' when
> revising for exams. She has got better by GoF, but still spends most of her
> time working and feeling that she has to put that work in. I get the
> impression that Hermione believes that because she has become top of the
> class she must now work very hard to maintain that position and she would
> be very upset if she did not remain as the top student.
>
Um . . . . yes, I *recognize* that feeling all too well.  I didn't set
out to do it . . . but somehow found myself as a senior in college with
a perfect 4.0 grade point average.  I can't begin to tell you the
pressure I put on myself that year to maintain it through to the end, my
logical side arguing "If you lose it, oh well.  No big deal," and the
more ambitious side saying "Why the hell would you lose it *now* after
all that work?"  I still remember vividly getting by on 0-4 hrs of sleep
a night for several weeks running right before fall exams.  Yes . . . I
relate to Hermione on a number of levels.  <g>

> Another problem I have with Hermione is that she is constantly trying to
> organize the others. In PS she draws up revision timetables for them. She
> nags at Harry when he is not working towards the tasks in GoF. Yes I know
> that Ron and Harry do need convincing to do their work, but at the end of
> the day it is their decision and they should be left to choose about how
> much they do.
>
Yes, I would see this as a negative trait.  I think that's something
she'll give up on with time though anyway . . . we see less & less of it
by GoF.

> In GoF Ron has to believe that either Harry lies to him or that Dumbledore
> is not as powerful as people make him out to be. Either Dumbledore has made
> a mistake by allowing Harry's name to get into the cup or Harry is refusing
> to say how he got his name in. Written like this the choice becomes less
> clear. Do we really want to admit, or even know, that Dumbledore makes
> mistakes?
>
Well . . . but Hermione says it was obvious (to her) from the look on
Harry's face that he hadn't submitted his name.  I still think Ron let
his envy & insecurities immediately override his better judgment of his
best friend . . . he didn't even stop to consider this option.

Shifting to Dr MM, who wrote:

> I'm glad someone else besides me agrees that Hermione is insecure, and
> that's one of the main reasons why she's so insistant on being at the
> top . . . And I love the example you provide.  It is Ron and Harry's
> choice.  While I'm sure Hermione doesn't want her friends to fail, her
> concern crosses into "nagging" which is, um, obnoxious.
>
Why is Hermione's drive to be at the top necessarily insecurity?  Why
can't it just be ambition?  Maybe I'm not examining my own inner
workings closely enough since I've admitted to having been in the exact
same academic cycle as Hermione years ago but . . . I guess I just don't
*necessarily* think that her strong desire to achieve academically is
heavily influenced by an insecure fear of failure.  Hmmmm . . . .

> I *don't* dislike Hermione; I just don't identify with her but
> that doesn't mean I don't like her.  Just to make sure everyone
> understands, I think Hermione is a good, intelligent, well-meaning
> person.  I'm just attempting to point out what I see as her greatest
> character flaw.  In my opinion, her constant display of her academic
> prowess in front of classes is obnoxious.    And, as I've stated many
> times, as the books progress, she matures and displays less and less
> of this tendency.  <snip>
>
> This has nothing to do with gender.  If Hermione was male, I'd see the
> exact same character flaws.  My entire point with the quote was to
> illustrate that Hermione doesn't give anyone *time* to volunteer.  She
> raises her hand and two seconds later blurts out the answer (that's
> how I read it anyway).  She doesn't give Prof. Sprout time to nod and
> say "Yes, Hermione," or call on someone else.
>

I still think it's largely up to the teachers to be sure that every
student has an opportunity to express themselves in class.  We do
sometimes see Hermione raising her hand eagerly . . . but I don't have
the perception that she speaks out of turn.  She always prefaces what
she's saying with "please sir ..." -- that sort of indicates she's
following some sort of classroom etiquette.  Lots of times
(transfiguration & charms mainly), we see the professors commending &
praising Hermione, but we don't see Hermione drawing attention to
herself.  Those classes in particular also require more-than-average
practical application.  In order to be "top of her year," which she is
years 1 & 2 for sure, she'd need more than just "book smarts" (raising
her hand & volunteering answers).  She's also got to demonstrate
application of those principles . . . application goes hand-in-hand in
transfiguration & charms.

Shifting now to Ebony, who asked:

> 1)  Does Hermione as a character get a bad rap?  Does the fact that
> she is the only female main character (and the most well-developed
> female) adversely affect our critique of her?
>
I think most readers, particularly female readers, tend to identify at
least to some degree with Hermione.  So, I think in general, the fans
don't give her a bad rap.  She gets an extraordinarily unfair "rap" in
literary criticism of the series so far.  No wonder JKR is exasperated.
She creates a very strong, assertive, successful, independent female
character, molded largely in her own image, and then she gets asks
repeatedly why the series is "male-centered" & why there are no strong
female characters.

Is the 2nd part of the above asking whether we think she gets more
scrutiny than she might otherwise because she's the only developed
female character?  If so, then, yeah I think she does.

I want to think some more about the rest of Ebony's questions.  I too
think there is very definitely a "birth-order" correlation with
character identification.  I've posed the question about Hermione to my
younger sister (asked her for her perception of Hermione without giving
her any buzz words whatsoever).  My sister has read the book, has read
the first 2 books to her classroom, is a "fan" but by no means an
"obsessive fan" like her big sister.  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From d.godwin at minn.net  Thu Nov  2 05:57:51 2000
From: d.godwin at minn.net (David Godwin)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 05:57:51 -0000
Subject: Muggle Wars
Message-ID: <8tqvov+2pmq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 4999

Hello.

I am curious as to how much interaction there actually is between the 
Muggle world and the Wizard world, particularly in relation to Muggle 
nations, politics, etc. We know that the Ministry of Magic 
communicated with the PM over Sirius's escape, but I'm thinking of 
larger issues. For example, in WW II, did Hogwarts support the Allies 
and Durmstrang the Axis? Did their respective wizards/witches/students 
have open conflict, magical warfare? Or was there perhaps a division 
along ideological lines rather than national ones, such as the 
predecessors of the Death Eaters supporting Hitler, which would amount 
to an early conflict between good and bad wizards irrespective of 
national boundaries. Or did the magical world stay aloof from it all? 
I do know that the English ceremonial magician Dion Fortune tried to 
enlist the aid of King Arthur and various archangels in the Battle of 
Britain, and claimed that it was Michael who made all the difference 
in the outcome.

Dav




From drmm at fuuko.com  Thu Nov  2 06:03:35 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm at fuuko.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 06:03:35 -0000
Subject: The Hermione thread (was the ron thread)
Message-ID: <8tr03n+j382@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5000


Ebony wrote:

> 1)  Does Hermione as a character get a bad rap?  Does the fact that
> she is the only female main character (and the most well-developed
> female) adversely affect our critique of her?

Good question.  I'd say both yes and no.  No, because I think what 
irritates me about Hermione now, would irritate me just as much if 
there was another main female character.  Yes, because *if* there were 
another main female character, I would probably focus less on Hermione 
and more on her (especially if I were able to identify with her).

I'm among the group who would be calling for another strong female 
character (note the word another, not a).  This isn't because I see 
Hermione as a weak character but because I want a female character I 
can identify with.  I haven't found any character, male or female, who 
I can identify with yet.  As a result I'm forced to shove together 
certain traits from different characters (Ginny's hyperactivity (or 
what I see as her hyperactivity), Ron's temper and envy of siblings 
(and red hair), Fred & George's mischievousness, a toned down version 
of Snape's poor people skills and general bitterness at the world 
(this is the adult me . . . not the child me) and Dumbledore's quirky 
sense of humor) and end up defending these elements of the characters, 
even though I don't identify with them.

What type of strong female character do I want? Umm . . . myself? <g> 
 Seriously, I think a lot of people's perception of Hermione's 
character as strong has to do with self identification.  Penny (hope 
you don't mind me singling you out . . . but you are the biggest 
Hermione defender) obviously thinks of herself as a strong person; for 
that matter most people think of themselves as being strong.  She 
identifies with Hermione and therefore sees her as a strong character. 
 I on the other hand don't identify with Hermione.  Therefore, while I 
don't see Hermione as a weak character, I don't see her as being as 
strong as the people who identify with her do.  I do think she's a 
strong character in her own way . . . it's just that I want someone I 
can identify with.

Was that coherent?  I hope it doesn't seem like I'm implying Hermione 
doesn't have a strong character . . .

DrMM (wondering why she's using so many parentheses in this e-mail) 




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 06:20:38 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 06:20:38 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Satanic Conspiracy
In-Reply-To: <3A00E967.FA0FA699@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8tr13m+ins6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5001

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
 It's even more
> painful to see them fall for the Onion's parody, hook, line and 
sinker. 


Remember Landover? Back on Yahoo, there was this post with a link to 
a "church" website that was announcing an HP book burning. That 
turned out to be a parody too, and we (or at least I) fell for it. 
Mr_Beckhorn comes to mind, too. 

Still, a magazine run by supposedly professional journalists should 
be more thorough in investigating their sources than an Internet 
message board!




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Thu Nov  2 08:55:15 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:55:15 -0000
Subject: Ford Anglia - was Re: UK merchandise?
Message-ID: <002e01c044aa$9f75cb00$21997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5002

>> I've found a mug with a Blue Ford Anglia on it.
>Nick!  Where on earth did you find that?  I'll e-mail you my address
>and all my worldly goods (Harry Potter books excluded) this
>instant...The pic looks like an early Ford Anglia, c. 1940s, rather
>than the 1960s model on the front of CoS (UK) but it's still dead
>cool.

I found it at a garden centre in a very small village between Basingstoke
and Alton (Hampshire, England).

Went back there yesterday to see if I could get some more... but alas they
did not have any.  I am planning to write to the store manager to see if I
can establish who the supplier is.

Is there a difference between the 1940 and 1960 model... I didn't know.
Hey, the difference probably isn't that great.   I wonder if the
manufacturer of the mug would do us a 1960 model version.

>At one point, some may recall, I was pursuing diecast models of Ford
>Anglias, but I ran out of time and energy.  Perhaps there will be
>some in stock for Christmas (hopefully without a WB logo).

I never found any... but perhaps there may be some as we get close to
Christmas.

Nick




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Thu Nov  2 09:09:29 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:09:29 -0000
Subject: JKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs
Message-ID: <007501c044ac$a18b52a0$21997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5003

>Okay, for the benefit of any other people confused by Ye Olde English
dating
>system, the Desert Island Discs programme is being broadcast on Sunday the
>fifth of November (Bonfire Night)

Oh Neil... the Americans don't know what Bonfire Night is... do they?  I
recall someone asking that on one of the JKR Chats recently - might have
been the AOL chat, so probably an uneducated kid!

>Is it possible for people to tune into the BBC over the internet?
>I'm not sure. Maybe Nick can advise on that.  I'll tune in and record it
though.

Yes...  http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/realplayer/index_fm.html
But it's not everything... only selected things, due to Performance Rights.

Desert Island Discs may, or may not be available.   Strangely, I'm unable to
locate a website for Desert Island Discs.

I'm working that day, so will have to remember to take a radio to work with
me.

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Thu Nov  2 09:18:32 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:18:32 -0000
Subject: Wizards - TopDeck
Message-ID: <007801c044ad$e4de9fc0$21997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5004

Hi all

Latest thing out (at least in the UK) in terms of Harry Potter merchandise
is:

TopDeck magazine (november 2000 issue)

This has a feature on Harry Potter and a Harry Potter tempoary tatoo (Yes,
you get the lightning bolt, and the WB HP logo).

TopDeck magazine is imported to the UK from the US - so should be available
over there.  May also be available in Canada.

http://www.wizards.com/topdeck/

You can buy it online if you like! -
http://store.wizards.com/product.asp?productid=3816

Nick.
(Not a regular TopDeck buyer... but spotted it in the newsagent yesterday,
so had to get 2 copies - one to keep as Mint.)




From john at walton.to  Thu Nov  2 12:13:15 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 12:13:15 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Telling Time (wasJKR on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs)
In-Reply-To: <8tqlok+shvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6270ADB.78F5%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5005

Trina at lj2d30 at gateway.net wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "John Walton" <john at w...> wrote:
> 
>> For those Liberal Arts students among us, that's when the big hand
> is at the three (3) and the little hand is at the eleven (11).
>> 
>> --John (who IS an Arts student so will be really peeved if he gets
> flamed)
> 
> 
> LOL!  I was in the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences at U of
> Illinois where the running joke was that LAS stood for "Lost and
> Seeking"  
> 
> Trina (who only remembered to turn her clocks back after she got up
> Sunday morning)

Ohh,  the Liberal Arts student jokes I know...

Q. "What's the phrase most commonly used by a LA graduate?"
A. "Want fries with that?"

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Thu Nov  2 12:36:36 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:36:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Hermione thread (was the ron thread)
References: <8tr03n+j382@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003301c044c9$8b11f8e0$ea43ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5006

> What type of strong female character do I want? Umm . . . myself? <g>
>  Seriously, I think a lot of people's perception of Hermione's
> character as strong has to do with self identification.  Penny (hope
> you don't mind me singling you out . . . but you are the biggest
> Hermione defender) obviously thinks of herself as a strong person; for
> that matter most people think of themselves as being strong.  She
> identifies with Hermione and therefore sees her as a strong character.
>  I on the other hand don't identify with Hermione.  Therefore, while I
> don't see Hermione as a weak character, I don't see her as being as
> strong as the people who identify with her do.  I do think she's a
> strong character in her own way . . . it's just that I want someone I
> can identify with.
>
> Was that coherent?  I hope it doesn't seem like I'm implying Hermione
> doesn't have a strong character . . .

Hermione doesn't irritate me at all, and I do see her as a strong character,
and echoing other threads from earlier I like the fact that the girl is the
one who raises her hand and has all the right answers and is a central
player in this story..it can't help but encourage girls to not be afraid of
academic success.  BUT I'm with you in that I long for a character I can
identify with.  I was never the Hermione type (Hermione is my older sister).
I would tend to say I was more the Ginny type, but we know so little about
Ginny that who knows.

Of all the female characters in the book she's the closest...the little
sister who develops crushes on big brother's (sister's in my case) friends
then gets all shy and embarrased around them.  But the person my sister's
friends saw was not the person I was around my friends.  So I guess I
project a lot of my personality onto the shapeless form of Ginny, and
therefore see her as a not so uninteresting (talk about double negatives)
character as a lot of people do.  People see her as weak, shy, immature,
etc. and irritating because her character is relatively undeveloped.  But I
guess I've tended to give her the benefit of the doubt and assumed that she
is different when in her own element.  I hope we see some of that charcter
development in future books.

I've been meaning to jump in here on this thread, and I planned on echoing
the comments about sibling dynamics.  My older sister (Just 1 year older)
was the civic and drama standout.  English and History were her subjects,
and she was the bookworm.  I purposely shied away from everything she was
good at or interested in.  I was the math / science person.  I quit chorus
as a junior, although I loved singing because it was too close to her
specialities.  But I do realize I got a lot of privledges earlier because
she had been through it.  Got to drive earlier, moved out of the dorms in
college (and in with a boyfriend...now my husband) with not so much as a
blink from my mom because my sister had weathered the storm for me.  So
although I limited myself because of my sister, she also made my life
easier...and how this paragraph relates to HP....hmmmmmm I think I've gotten
a bit off topic...oh well...maybe I need caffeine!

carole






From r.yoo at scotland.com  Thu Nov  2 13:09:51 2000
From: r.yoo at scotland.com (r.yoo at scotland.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:09:51 -0000
Subject: Zainy Brainy and HP Merchandise
Message-ID: <8trp2v+v99g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5007

I don't think they have "Zainy Brainy" in the UK, but it is a store 
here in the U.S that sells education toys and books.  They have 
carried the HP books and tapes since the beginning and now it looks 
like they get a piece of the merchandising too.  They have lots of 
figurines and they are soon to get several puzzels (I think even a 
glow in the dark one!).  They have a website:

http://www.zanybrainy.com/retail/R5B.jsp?q=4:1:1:1.Dp&bc=0:1:1:1.5!4:1
:1:1.Dp

Rebecca :)




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov  2 12:17:41 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:17:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Wars
References: <8tqvov+2pmq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c044c6$e691c4a0$0bdd4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5008


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Godwin" <d.godwin at minn.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 12:57 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Wars


> Hello.
>
> I am curious as to how much interaction there actually is between the
> Muggle world and the Wizard world, particularly in relation to Muggle
> nations, politics, etc.

It's interesting that in the World Quidditch Cup, teams are sent by
individual nations (though Wales and Scotland have different teams) that
correspond to Muggle nations.  The only exception was Transylvania (which is
actually a province of Romania), but I suppose that's just tradition.
During the Cup, patriotic fervor between Ireland and Bulgaria is on full
display. Harry notices the shamrocks covering the Irish tents, while over
the Bulgarian tents, he sees "the Bulgarian flag - white, green, and red -
fluttering in the breeze"





 We know that the Ministry of Magic
> communicated with the PM over Sirius's escape, but I'm thinking of
> larger issues. For example, in WW II, did Hogwarts support the Allies
> and Durmstrang the Axis?

In HP/SS we learn, through Ron's trading card, that Dumbledore defeated the
dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, which would certainly be suggestive.
Hitler's preoccupation with the occult has been well documented. (e.g., The
Morning of the Magicians by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier). OTOH,
Voldemort's reign of terror, during the 70s, does not appear to have been
connected with any particular political upheaval (such as the wars in SE
Asia, Iran, or Afghanistan).

    - CMC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Thu Nov  2 13:23:07 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 2 Nov 2000 13:23:07 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <973171387.23362@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5009


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /HP-pumpkin.jpg 
  Uploaded by : r.yoo at scotland.com 
  Description : HP Pumpkin 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/HP-pumpkin%2Ejpg 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

r.yoo at scotland.com
 






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Nov  2 13:38:34 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 2 Nov 2000 05:38:34 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculations re: Cho (was: Thoughts on Relationships)
Message-ID: <20001102133834.5007.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5010

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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov  2 14:07:29 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 14:07:29 -0000
Subject: Sorcerer's Stone Limited Edition at Zainy Brainy CHEAP
Message-ID: <8trsf1+l04g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5011

Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone (Book 1/Leather-bound) 
This beautiful leather-bound limited collector's edition of the first 
Harry Potter tale is a perfect addition to any collector's library.
Orig. Price : $ 75.00 
Zany Price : $ 49.99
You Save : $ 25.01 (33%)

   I don't know how long this will be going on, but you can order it 
at 
http://www.zanybrainy.com/retail/R5B.jsp?pon=3&q=4:1:1:1.Dp&bc=0:1:1:1
.5!4:1




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 15:42:51 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:42:51 -0600
Subject: Haven't seen these yet talked about (Merchandise)
Message-ID: <00d101c044e6$e52d6c20$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5012

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/43601125


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Thu Nov  2 15:59:50 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:59:50 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ron
In-Reply-To: <8tlkdj+d8bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ts31m+9jjk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5013

I wrote:
>Since I haven't seen anyone else give examples for the "Hermione's 
>an obnoxious braggart" issue, I would like to bring up her statement 
>that she got something like 112% on Flitwick's test and her 
>following statement "they're not going to throw *me* out after 
>that!".  I think the fact that she scored so high would not effect 
>any decision to expel her if the circumstances called for it so the 
>statement must have been simply to let someone know exactly how good 
>she did

eggplant wrote:
>Let's put that remark in context. She said she should be the one to 
>actually steal the ingredients for the polly juice potion from 
>Snape, a pretty gutsy thing to do by the way. When asked why she be 
>the one to do this dangerous job she explained, accurately I think, 
>why she was less likely to be expelled if caught than Ron or Harry. 
>I like Hermione and she has no need to apologize for being smart. 
>The only time I was mad at her was during the Scabbers incident, she 
>should have shown more consideration towards Ron.

Penny wrote:
>Yep -- that was going to be my point but Eggplant beat me to it.   
>She's *still* not bragging in my mind.   I have yet to see any 
>evidence of her "bragging."   But, I'm working on the Hermione 
>character FAQ this morning & will be going through the books with a 
>fine-tooth comb.   Will be on the lookout, I assure you. 

   Actually, the incident I referred to came at the end of SS/PS when 
they were discussing going through the trap door.  Harry reminded 
Hermione and Ron that they could be expelled if they went along with 
him and she was explaining how she could go along free from the 
danger of expulsion.  She seems to be rubbing it in a bit that she 
did so well and it could be seen that her comment was aimed at Ron 
who was included in Harry's warning.
   As I mentioned, I don't have anything against Hermione.  I think 
she gains her self-esteem from academic success and I can easily 
identify with that but in this case she doesn't use good judgement by 
disguising a boast as a reason to risk being thrown out.  I still 
don't believe that if all 3 were caught, the professors would choose 
who to expel based on their grades.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov  2 16:53:16 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:53:16 -0000
Subject: Movie picture
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIPCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5014

Hello all

A few days ago I posted a link to one of the student newspapers in Oxford
(www.oxfordstudent.com), which contained a picture of Daniel in costume.
Today, while I had some time to kill, I decided to pick up a copy of the
paper to see if the picture was any clearer. The enlarged version just about
convinces me that they photographed the right person but I would not put it
past them to have photographed anyone who looked vaguely right and make sure
it was out of focus enough that we could not tell.

>From the same paper are a few suggested book titles for the series
(apologies if you do not get the relevance of some of them - I have made
some attempt to explain them below)
Harry Potter and the Professor's Stoned
Harry Potter and the Debating Chamber of Cancellations
Harry Potter and the Alcohol-Free Goblet of Dame Fi
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Smoking Ban
Harry Potter and the Obligatory Laura Spence Joke

And possible jobs for Harry in the future:
Harry Pothead - Teenage Harry discovers weed and gets caned
Harry Potplant - Harry discovers the delights of gardening
Harry Potshot - Harry becomes editor of an [Oxford] newspaper
Harry Pot Noodle - Harry decides to become a real student


I will now try to clear up some of the mysteries of the suggested titles
The first refers to an Oxford Don who has been researching the effects of
marijuana
The second refers to the fact that The Oxford Union has had to cancel quite
a few events this term
I have no idea about the third
The forth refers to The Oxford Union imposing a smoking ban on the ground
floor of its premises
The fifth refers to a big incident in the UK when Gordon Brown (Chancellor
of the Exchequer) who waded into the Oxford selection process by saying that
the said student should have been given a place at the university - even
though the five places at the college in question were filled by 5 students
who all outperformed the named student during the interview process (a
mixture of tests and interviews).


Simon (who had some amusement earlier laughing at some of the above)




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  2 17:08:21 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:08:21 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ron
In-Reply-To: <8ts31m+9jjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ts725+q3js@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5015

Brian Wrote:

>I still don't believe that if all 3 were caught, the professors 
>I would choose who to expel based on their grades.

It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the fact of the matter is that 
Hermione thought it was true. For the record I do too, and I see 
nothing wrong in having a little pride at being a good student.
   







From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Nov  2 17:10:59 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:10:59 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie picture
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001102171059.00928980@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5016

At 16:53 11/02/2000 -0000, Simon wrote:

>Harry Potter and the Alcohol-Free Goblet of Dame Fi

>I have no idea about the third

I think this is a reference to Dame Fiona Caldicott, who is quite prominent
among the powers that be at the British Medical Assocation.  I gather she is
based at Oxford and has presumably said something McGonagall-like about
student drinking and wild behaviour.  Do students drink a lot?  Do doctors
drink a lot?  Strangely enough, they do...

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From r.yoo at scotland.com  Thu Nov  2 18:52:54 2000
From: r.yoo at scotland.com (r.yoo at scotland.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:52:54 -0000
Subject: Check this out
Message-ID: <8tsd66+iv7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5017

This is probably the most extravagent HP merchandise that I have seen 
so far.  It's a "loft bed"  It looks like a cross between a bunk bed, 
but without the lower bunk and Hogwarts Castle.

http://www.fao.com/FAOWeb/EComm/ProductPage.cfm?ProdID=084EA2F5-CE04-4
817-A2D0FC0C7AF300E0

Rebecca

P.S.  At the University of Michigan the engineers would refer to us 
LS&A's (Literature, Arts, and the Sciences) as LS&Plays. :(




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Thu Nov  2 18:55:32 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 2 Nov 2000 18:55:32 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <973191332.27196@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5018


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Merchandise/HP-bed.jpg 
  Uploaded by : r.yoo at scotland.com 
  Description : FAO Swartz HP loft bed 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Merchandise/HP-bed%2Ejpg 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

r.yoo at scotland.com
 






From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Thu Nov  2 19:58:38 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laurie )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 19:58:38 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
In-Reply-To: <8tq6cq+a4rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tsh1e+kd7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5019

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> > 
> Does anyone know how other countries celebrate Halloween if they do?
> I know a little about Celtic commemoration - Samhain -- and 
> traditions in Wales and Cornwall...but anyone know about other 
> countries?
> 
> Susan


I was in class on Halloween night, and we have students from China, 
Nigeria, and Poland in the class. When the professor asked them about 
Halloween in their home countries, they all stated that Halloween was 
not celebrated, although, in Poland, they do celebrate All Saints Day 
on November 1st.




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Thu Nov  2 20:09:18 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:09:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Check this out
References: <8tsd66+iv7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A01C9EE.3B4D4332@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5020



r.yoo at scotland.com wrote:

> This is probably the most extravagent HP merchandise that I have seen
> so far.  It's a "loft bed"  It looks like a cross between a bunk bed,
> but without the lower bunk and Hogwarts Castle.
>
> http://www.fao.com/FAOWeb/EComm/ProductPage.cfm?ProdID=084EA2F5-CE04-4

An article appeared in the Washington Post about this furniture line.  I
meant to post the URL last week but didn't get a chance.  Here it is now:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15985-2000Oct26.html

BTW, my seven year old went trick-or treating as Hermione; she had a real
blast.

drpam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Thu Nov  2 20:16:59 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:16:59 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Wars
References: <8tqvov+2pmq@eGroups.com> <001901c044c6$e691c4a0$0bdd4b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <009801c04509$dc4f9880$b87d073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5021

Caius Marcius wrote
> In HP/SS we learn, through Ron's trading card, that Dumbledore defeated
the
> dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, which would certainly be suggestive.
> Hitler's preoccupation with the occult has been well documented. (e.g.,
The
> Morning of the Magicians by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier). OTOH,
> Voldemort's reign of terror, during the 70s, does not appear to have been
> connected with any particular political upheaval (such as the wars in SE
> Asia, Iran, or Afghanistan).

Well, in the 70s Britain was experiencing the Troubles in NI - however, it's
not a direct parallel, as both sides were fighting each other.  However, I
was thinking of Arthur Weasley's line in GoF where he talks about the terror
of seeing the Dark Mark over your own home and what you might see inside -
in the 70s there were many shootings and bombs, and you never quite knew
what was going to happen.  Also, due to the hasty drafting of the Prevention
of Terrorism Act, and the need for the government to appear that they were
doing something positive, many people were wrongly imprisoned for crimes
they did not commit - thinking of our Sirius here, of course...

Alix




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Nov  2 20:47:02 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 20:47:02 -0000
Subject: Hermione; strong female characters
Message-ID: <8tsjs6+6c6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5022

This is me chiming in on Penny's and DrMM's 'strong female character' 
conversation.  When people ask for strong females, perhaps they're 
referring to adult characters.  That's what I mean when I say that, 
anyway.  I think Hermione is a wonderfully strong character--smart, 
brave, loyal, sensible, adventurous, compassionate, etc.  I'd like to 
see more of her 'inner' self, but don't expect that to happen.  Now, 
as far as the characters I enjoy reading the most, after the kids and 
their adventures and all, the characters I like the most are Lupin, 
Sirius, Snape, Dumbledore, Hagrid, and the Weasley family.  Aside 
from Molly, everyone I like is male.  I would just like a female 
who's as vivid and charismatic as those men.  That's all.  I think 
JKR could make a great female in this vein, and I long to see it.  I 
want it to be her vision above all, but I just hope it includes a 
woman like that.   

Now, as far as identifying with characters, like DrMM, there is no 
female I really identify with.  I'm fairly bright, but unlike Herm, I 
wasn't assertive in class.  I love Dumble's benign protection; he's 
always keeping watch, but lets the kids learn for themselves rather 
than say "No, let the grownups handle it," or "...because I said so;" 
McG does this--errr.  I feel, like Sirius, "I don't care what happens 
to me, I want justice."  I believe, identifying to an extent, that I 
am most like a combination of Lupin and Molly.  Lupin is perfect with 
the kids (my favorite teacher was just like this); if I were a 
teacher this is exactly how I'd like to be.  (I don't know how 
realistic that is, of course.)  And, I'm not a mother, but I love 
kids, am around them quite a bit, and feel very protective of them.  
Lots of mothering instinct.  I don't know if I really need one 
character to identify with as a whole, since I feel I identify with 
so many thoughts, emotions, and actions of so many of the 
characters.  To tie this all together, I don't think I need a strong 
vivid female to identify with, but JKR writes such great characters, 
I'd love to see what she does with a strong, _adult_ female.

Kelley




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  2 21:21:23 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:21:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
Message-ID: <20001102212123.12288.qmail@web4805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5023

--- Susan McGee <Schlobin at aol.com> wrote:

> And who dressed as Harry?


I didn't dress as a character, but I did put up a Hogwarts poster (with the
crest) as a decoration.  My neighborhood gets rather competitive with the
decorations.  Two doors down, they actually make a spook house in their
garage, and set it up so trick-or-treaters must go through the spook house
to get to the door!  Despite that, I did overhear several compliments about
the "Harry Potter House".

Surprisingly enough, I only encountered one Harry trick-or-treater.  I
thought at first that he was supposed to be a general, unnamed wizard,
until he pointed out an almost invisible, but real, scar on his forehead.

Melanie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/



From lrcjestes at msn.com  Thu Nov  2 21:21:33 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:21:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
References: <20001102212123.12288.qmail@web4805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011701c04512$e0dbc140$808fd6ce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5024


> --- Susan McGee <Schlobin at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > And who dressed as Harry?
>

My 7 yo son did...and he looked so cute...I'll post some pics when we get
them developed.

carole






From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  2 21:50:36 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:50:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
References: <8tsh1e+kd7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A01E1AB.C9A7CED3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5025

Laurie wrote:

> I was in class on Halloween night, and we have students from China,
> Nigeria, and Poland in the class. When the professor asked them about
> Halloween in their home countries, they all stated that Halloween was
> not celebrated, although, in Poland, they do celebrate All Saints Day
> on November 1st.

They're Catholic feast days--November 1 is All Saints Day, November 2 is All
Souls Day. Another word for All Saints is All Hallows, hence Hallow's Eve,
etc. Since it's Catholic, and quite probably derived from an earlier
tradition, most European countries are going to have some traces--but not
necessarily having to do with Oct. 31. Poland focuses on Nov. 1.

--Amanda




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Thu Nov  2 23:03:22 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 23:03:22 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ron
In-Reply-To: <8ts725+q3js@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tsrrq+t8a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5026

I Wrote:
>I still don't believe that if all 3 were caught, the professors 
>I would choose who to expel based on their grades.
 
eggplant wrote:
> It doesn't matter if it's true or not, the fact of the matter is
> that Hermione thought it was true. For the record I do too, and I 
> see nothing wrong in having a little pride at being a good student.

   I agree with you 100% that academic prowess is worthy of a little 
pride in oneself.  However, my point was that feeling good about 
yourself should not translate into attempts to make others feel good 
about you too and early on Hermione seemed to crave admiration from 
others.  
   Now, as I have said before I think she also has grown a lot by 
GoF.  My initial reason for posting was simply to give an example of 
one time when Hermione reminded others of her grades in a boastful 
way.  Kids do it.  I did it.  She's found something that she's good 
at and wants a little recognition.  I'm not saying she's bad, I 
actually like her quite a bit and hope her and Ron are very happy 
together ;) but I think it's definitely arguable that in the 
beginning she had boastful tendencies.  If Ron was the best at 
something I bet he would want everyone to know too as would many of 
the others.
   Anyway, I hope that I have made my thoughts clearer.  




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 00:36:00 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:36:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
References: <8tsh1e+kd7c@eGroups.com> <3A01E1AB.C9A7CED3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <005a01c0452e$0d87f540$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5027

Rita might want help me with this (she seems to have sooo much more
knowledge than I, but that's ok! :)) but I am almost certain of what I say.
I think that Halloween/All Saint's Day was originally the pagan holiday of
Samhain first, then the "church" of the time changed their holidays to match
the holidays of the pagans, so that they could be encouraged to join the new
religion.  Hence the reason we wiccans celebrate Samhain (or the Wiccan New
Year) on October 31st.
~~~~~~~

I hope I said that right! :)





----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT


> Laurie wrote:
>
> > I was in class on Halloween night, and we have students from China,
> > Nigeria, and Poland in the class. When the professor asked them about
> > Halloween in their home countries, they all stated that Halloween was
> > not celebrated, although, in Poland, they do celebrate All Saints Day
> > on November 1st.
>
> They're Catholic feast days--November 1 is All Saints Day, November 2 is
All
> Souls Day. Another word for All Saints is All Hallows, hence Hallow's Eve,
> etc. Since it's Catholic, and quite probably derived from an earlier
> tradition, most European countries are going to have some traces--but not
> necessarily having to do with Oct. 31. Poland focuses on Nov. 1.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
> .
> rownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
> .


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Nov  3 02:08:24 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:08:24 -0500
Subject: this game sucks
References: <39FBC0C3.7E959D37@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A021E17.87E1A620@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5028

My husband is writing this with me:
we just opened our Harry Potter & The Sorcerer's Stone Trivia Game.
It sucks.
In so many different ways.
First, it's WAY too complicated - a pair of attorneys should be able to open
a board game labeled "ages 8 and up" and figure it out without reading all 4
pages of directions word for word.
Second, whoever decided to entitle one of the "categories" as "non magic
folk" instead of muggles should have his or her head boiled in one of
snape's cauldrons.
Third, the curse cards are made for playing the game with more than 3
people  - Aaron kept getting "curse" cards for answering questions
incorrectly (like what house was Terry Boot sorted into) and those curse
cards rebounded against me because they said that everyone in a house
selected by the cursed person had to pass their cards to the left - which
meant that he kept getting my cards! I started calling him "Malfoy" - that's
my new term for someone who you curse, but the curse rebounds against you
(like Ron with his broken wand)
Fourth, they made these "legend" cards but they don't *do* anything.

The questions themselves are fine, and with 3 or more players it would be a
less ludicrous game, and we're not *unhappy* that we bought it, but we
expected more - or at least something more coherent.




From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov  3 03:28:05 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:28:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
References: <8tsh1e+kd7c@eGroups.com> <3A01E1AB.C9A7CED3@texas.net> <005a01c0452e$0d87f540$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A0230C4.604FAE29@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5029

Denise Rogers wrote:

> Rita might want help me with this (she seems to have sooo much more
> knowledge than I, but that's ok! :)) but I am almost certain of what I say.
> I think that Halloween/All Saint's Day was originally the pagan holiday of
> Samhain first,

Generally, yes. Most cultures had some sort of "death of the year" or some such
about that time. Not everyone called it Samhain, but that's the general term
used now for the neo-Celtic types. But don't forget--it wasn't just Celtic
tribes that the missionaries and/or Romans encountered--there were Germanic and
Slavic tribes in Europe, too. I believe it's pretty much accepted that the
Church decided to honor its dead around this time to correspond with existing
folk practices. Just remember, such folk practices were not the organized thing
they tend to be today, and could vary widely by locale.

> then the "church" of the time changed their holidays to match
> the holidays of the pagans, so that they could be encouraged to join the new
> religion.

And terribly effective it was. I've read stuff postulating that some of the
early saints are reformatted local divinities, too. And loads of older holy
places were holy way before Christianity got there. Actually, the Church has
been moving its holy days around for a while--in the early days of Christianity,
when they were still hiding, they tended to match up with popular holidays to be
less noticed, as well. It's just that most cultures have a rebirth celebration
sometime in the spring, and a death-related one sometime in the fall, etc., so
there wasn't really too much shifting around needed.

>  Hence the reason we wiccans celebrate Samhain (or the Wiccan New
> Year) on October 31st.

In essence, yup.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov  3 03:30:49 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:30:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: this game sucks
References: <39FBC0C3.7E959D37@ibm.net> <3A021E17.87E1A620@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3A023169.4345F642@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5030

Gosh, Heidi, you really need to learn to just say what you think!  : )

Thanks, I was thinking about getting this, but if they don't even get "Muggles"
right, I'll probably pass. Why buy a game if I'll spend all my time seeing
discrepancies and things gotten wrong? Ugh.

--Amanda

heidi wrote:

> My husband is writing this with me:
> we just opened our Harry Potter & The Sorcerer's Stone Trivia Game.
> It sucks.
> In so many different ways.
> First, it's WAY too complicated - a pair of attorneys should be able to open
> a board game labeled "ages 8 and up" and figure it out without reading all 4
> pages of directions word for word.
> Second, whoever decided to entitle one of the "categories" as "non magic
> folk" instead of muggles should have his or her head boiled in one of
> snape's cauldrons.
> Third, the curse cards are made for playing the game with more than 3
> people  - Aaron kept getting "curse" cards for answering questions
> incorrectly (like what house was Terry Boot sorted into) and those curse
> cards rebounded against me because they said that everyone in a house
> selected by the cursed person had to pass their cards to the left - which
> meant that he kept getting my cards! I started calling him "Malfoy" - that's
> my new term for someone who you curse, but the curse rebounds against you
> (like Ron with his broken wand)
> Fourth, they made these "legend" cards but they don't *do* anything.
>
> The questions themselves are fine, and with 3 or more players it would be a
> less ludicrous game, and we're not *unhappy* that we bought it, but we
> expected more - or at least something more coherent.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov  3 04:01:30 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 22:01:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione; strong female characters
References: <8tsjs6+6c6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A02389A.E8D24457@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5031

Kelley wrote:

> This is me chiming in on Penny's and DrMM's 'strong female character'
> conversation.  When people ask for strong females, perhaps they're
> referring to adult characters.

Yes. The point has been made before: we're watching a story of character
FORMATION.  And that's what I find so interesting.  We see these little
character bits: Harry's wariness around adults, Hermione's obsessiveness
over her studies, Ron's prickliness about his family's poverty.  When these
children are put through the events detailed in JKR's plots, how do those
little character bits change as they grow?  Will Harry grow more trusting?
Will Hermione's obsessiveness moderate itself into a balanced but strong
drive to continue learning?  Will Ron achieve some kind of inner peace about
his portion of material wealth?

> That's what I mean when I say that,anyway.  I think Hermione is a
> wonderfully strong character--smart, brave, loyal, sensible, adventurous,
> compassionate, etc.  I'd like to
> see more of her 'inner' self, but don't expect that to happen.

I do! I think that's exactly what we're seeing, for all three of the major
characters.  We're watching the shaping of Hermione's character, as well as
Ron's and Harry's.

> I would just like a female [adult] who's as vivid and charismatic as those
> men.  <snip>
> I'd love to see what she [Rowling] does with a strong, _adult_ female.

Which is why I'll be very curious to see what she does with the female DADA
teacher she's going to introduce (it was going to be the next book, wasn't
it?  Did she say that specifically?)  I'd be particularly interested to see
how Hermione will interact with her.

Peg
(who is strong and female)





From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 04:10:18 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 04:10:18 -0000
Subject: Getting more and more OT-Ford Anglia - was Re: UK merchandise?
In-Reply-To: <002e01c044aa$9f75cb00$21997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8ttdra+mvp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5032

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Nick Mitchell" <nick at d...> wrote:
> > 
> Is there a difference between the 1940 and 1960 model... I didn't 
know.
> Hey, the difference probably isn't that great.   I wonder if the
> manufacturer of the mug would do us a 1960 model version.
> 
> >At one point, some may recall, I was pursuing diecast models of 
Ford
> >Anglias, but I ran out of time and energy. 


The 1940's version was built up until 1953; it's very much a prewar 
car, separate fenders with sticking-up headlights, etc.
 The only model of it for a long time was a Revell plastic kit (#85-
4169) that depicts a heavily modified drag racer. Believe me, it 
takes a LOT of work to turn it into a stock one! There is now a 1:18 
diecast from Eagle Race (I think).


The Weasley Anglia is of the 105E series (1960-67); it was a 
completely new car, new engine, Ford's first 4-speed car transmission 
(anywhere!), new body. Theirs looks like a Deluxe, the higher (and 
more popular) of two trims until 1962, when the bigger-engined Super 
was added. Production ended in 1967. 
The only models I know of are 1) a 1960s Matchbox; and 2) a 1/43 
scale, current one from Lledo. I'd love to see one in 1/24 scale, 
especially as a plastic kit! (styrene bodies are so much more 
detailed than diecast)

Did you know
- The introductory ad for the Anglia in the U.S. market used a circus 
theme, including someone in a lion costume?

-Some sources call this type of Anglia a "1959" model, despite having 
been introduced at the London Motor Show in Oct. 1959. This occurs 
also with the Mini and Triumph Herald (also Oct. '59) and the Jag 
XK120 and Morris Minor (Oct. '48)
 As the American "next-year's-model-rolled-out-in-fall" practice was 
followed when these cars were exported to the U.S., one gets the 
impression that there was commonly a one-year delay between British 
cars' UK and export launches. Not so! (Although this is now a common 
practice of the Japanese)
 





From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  3 05:38:20 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 05:38:20 -0000
Subject: The Death of Harry
Message-ID: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5033

Those who think Rowling would never consider killing Harry will find 
this interview by Evan Solomon disturbing. On the bright side I think 
Ron is safe, she thinks the death of a sidekick is too predictable:

Solomon: Characters take on their own lives, have their own stories. 
Writers often say, "I loved that character and the most tragic part 
of my year was having to kill him off."
 
Rowling: That's coming.

Solomon: Do you know already who is going to die in the next books? 

Rowling: I know all of them who are going to die.
 
Solomon: Some of the characters we might love and you might love? 

Rowling: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. It's horrible, 
isn't it? ...I cried during the writing of that one [Book Four] for 
the first time ever. It really upset me. 
 
Solomon: It opens with a murder and then there's one at the end. I 
won't say who it is. You cried then? 

Rowling: Yeah. 

Solomon: But in the future there's --
 
Rowling: There's worse coming. 

Solomon: People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to 
knock off Ron because he's the best friend. 

Rowling: Kids do, because they're sharp and they've seen so many 
films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going 
to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double bluff...
It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, "you're 
going, you're going, you're going." There are reasons for the deaths 
in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it. 





> 
> 




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 07:08:42 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:08:42 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ron
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001029211939.00ab1510@mail.fuuko.com>
Message-ID: <8tto9q+3uiq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5034

I know that there has already been a lot of discussion on this 
thread, and especially Penny already made the same points that I want 
to make. I feel so strongly about those points that I am being 
repetitive anyway!

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, DrMM <drmm at f...> wrote:

> One of the biggest complaints people on this list have about Ron is 
> the fact thathe's fundamentally insecure.  

It isn't a complaint, it's an observation. 

> As a result, most of these people appear to find Ron an obnoxious 
> and unappealing character.

I didn't know that there was anyone who found Ron obnoxious until I 
read eggplant's posts on this thread.

> However, I find this somewhat endearing.

I wouldn't say that *I* find it endearing, but it does lead me to 
worry about him and hope he finds his happiness.
 
> I've decided to state my opinion as to why I think Ron's 
> insecurities are perfectly understandable and realistic

Who said they weren't understandable or realistic?
 
> In Ron's case, this leaves him no arena to try that one of his 
> siblings hasn't already tried.

That's why I keep telling the universe that Ron should learn to play 
a portable musical instrument, or else become a quick sketch artist. 
Those are arenas that none of his brothers have succeeded in, and 
they are skills that earn the admiration of one's fellow party 
guests. 

> His lack of studying is probably a result of his attempting to 
> distance himself from Percy -- I'm firmly convinced that he has 
> the ability; 

I don't believe that Ron has more of a lack of studying than any 
normal kid -- me (when I was in school) for example. He just *looks* 
like a lack of studying compared to Hermione. And near the end of SS, 
JKR tells us that both Harry and Ron got good marks (she said 
something like "to their surprise").

> (it appears) he doesn't even consider trying out for the Quidditch
> team (Charlie's already the Quidditch hero).

I believe that he tried out for the Quidditch team at the beginning 
of second year, which is when he began eligible (Harry being made 
eligible in first year was one of those special Harry Potter 
privileges that normal people don't get), and again at the beginning 
of third year (I believe that there are new try-outs each year). But 
neither time did he do well enough to take the place of one of the 
people already on the team, the team that Fred and George and Harry 
are on, which must be a constant irritant to him, an irritant that it 
is very noble that he doesn't sulk at Harry about or hang back from 
cheering for Gryffindor.

Btw, I don't know why Gryffindor no longer has reserves. It used to 
have reserves: one of the Chasers (Alicia?) in Book 1 was described 
as having been just a reserve last year. And the other House teams 
have reserves. 





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 07:26:17 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:26:17 -0000
Subject: Thoughts on Relationships
In-Reply-To: <8tlk8m+af69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ttpap+91lu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5035

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ryan Goertz" <rgoertz at a...> wrote:

> When I was thinking of the end of that relationship I then
> thought that Harry now has a chance to be with Cho. I realized
> that was a rather shallow thought. (snip)
> What I am guessing as a possible storyline is that Harry will
> probably try to approach her and she will be very stand-offish
> around him. She might even resent him for the death of Cedric. 

In the Files/Fanfic section of this egroup is a story I wrote about 
Cedric's funeral (anyone who read it before last weekend, it's longer 
now). Part of the reason that I wrote it is that it came into my 
mind and wouldn't go away, but another part is to provide a way 
for Harry and Cho to get together.

Which is kind of tough in my universe, in which Cho and Cedric were 
already dating last year altho' unobservant Harry didn't notice, and 
this year had advanced from 'going steady' to 'engaged to be engaged' 
(how many people on this list are old enough to remember when there 
was a whole sequence of relationships between 'just friends' and 
'engaged to be married'? But the wizard folk tend to be old- 
fashioned). It might be a little easier in a universe in which the 
Yule Ball was C and C's first and only date.

But what I have, I have my invented character Mary Fawcett (remember 
the Fawcetts and the Lovegoods were the two neighbor families that 
Arthur mentioned to Amos) is Cho's Ravenclaw roommate (and best 
friend) and she is busy trying to cheer Cho up, and she gets a bee in 
her bonnet that Harry also needs cheering up because of the horrible 
Dursleys, and I see her owling Harry all summer, inviting him to grab 
Ron and come over to Mary's house to play two-on-two Quidditch girls 
against boys (as a plan to entertain both Harry and Cho at once). Or 
to let the Muggle-born Cho take them on a tour of a Shopping Mall.

Unfortunately, it would be in Harry's character to refuse all her 
kind invitations, perhaps replying that she should just invite Ron 
and one of his brothers, but he (Harry) cannot leave the Muggles. 
Maybe he would relent if he realised that Mary is *not* romantically 
pursuing him: she has a nice Hufflepuff boyfriend who shares her 
passion for Quidditch. 

That would be many times that Harry and Cho are thrown together, and 
they could become friends, which under the circumstances they should 
do before becoming lovers.

Btw, I did already read Peg Kerr's post on this thread, and when I 
first posted the first part of 'Cedric's Funeral', Pippin (foxmoth, 
is it?) e-mailed me suggesting that what Cho is up to, in the 
conversation she starts with Harry, is that she wants to ask him what 
happened to Cedric. Also, GoF showed Cho as a perfect sweetheart: she 
didn't wear a POTTER STINKS badge when all the other Ravenclaws 
did, and if she was already going with Cedric, she would have had 
extra motivation to do so. She tried to help Harry with his dropped 
(quill, was it?) when everyone else was heckling him.







From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 07:37:29 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:37:29 -0000
Subject: In defense of Hermione, was: Ron
In-Reply-To: <8tlnnq+1163m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ttpvp+skqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5036

-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:

> it's the teacher's responsibility not to call on the smartest/best
> prepared student and equalize the answers. The student's 
> responsibility is to answer the questions.

I clearly remember the frustration of *constantly* stretching my hand 
all the way to the ceiling (and eventually waving it around) for what 
certainly *seemed* like a good fifteen minutes, in which no one else 
ever raised their hand, and the teacher called on them *anyway*, and 
they gave quite idiotically wrong answers, and I *really wanted* to 
get that easy question solved so we could go on to the next thing. I 
confess that I *also* was hungry for attention in any form that did 
not involve someone hitting me. 

I've gotten over being the oldest, and whenever I reached a 
milestone birthday that entitled me to have my allowance increased 
or my bedtime made later, within days my brother (two years younger, 
almost to the day) had the same allowance and same bedtime as me. 
(We're both computer programmers, both science fiction fans, altho' 
different in every other way, and in contact only in annual exchange 
of birthday e-mail).

I haven't gotten over the general abuse of kids who are good at 
schoolwork. My first paragraph up there was about "you already know 
this stuff, so just sit still and be quiet, and I'll send you to the 
principal's office if you read some other book under your desk", but 
the thing I still get furious remembering is grading on improvement. 
If you do well on the pre-test (even if you deliberately cheat by 
deliberately giving wrong answers on the pre-test, but the teacher 
knows you from last year), then even if you get 100% on every test 
and every assignment, the best grade you can get is a C, because you 
didn't Improve very much because your baseline was so high. While 
someone who gets less than 50% on everything can get an A because 
they were So Bad to start with.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 07:43:42 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:43:42 -0000
Subject: qUIDDITcH (WAS Ron, Hermione and insecurities (this is probably quite long)
In-Reply-To: <010601c04389$8f6deb60$c68e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8ttqbe+g69u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5037

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jinx" <jinxster at c...> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, but Ron's never played A-side Quidditch before.  Captains 
> need to be among the older more experienced players.  

IIRC, when Cedric was introduced, he was said to be Hufflepuff's new 
Seeker and new Captain, which really made me question why a new team 
member would be chosen as Captain.

> Which makes me think one of the Chasers, probably Angelina, will 
> get it.

I keep thinking that Fred and George will be chosen as co-Captains. 
When it was said that they were too irresponsible, I said they could 
be chosen on purpose to teach them responsibility, but 
entrepreneurship will teach them that!

I suppose that when Fred said he was going to the ball with Angelina 
and Harry said "Have you asked her yet?" and Fred shouted across the 
room to Angelina: "Want to go to the ball with me?" (all paraphrased) 
that showed that Fred and Angelina were at least 'going steady' so 
that they could both take it for granted that they were going to 
the ball together without having had to discuss it.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 07:51:01 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:51:01 -0000
Subject: The Ron thread: Misc. comments
In-Reply-To: <8to2rg+d00t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ttqp5+fli6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5038

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, drmm at f... wrote:
 
> gosh, now I'm convinced Ron and Mr. Weasley are a lot alike . . .

They're both tall, thin Weasleys, while Charlie and the twins are 
short, thick Weasleys. I think Bill is one of the tall ones and I 
don't know about Percy. 

> My entire point with the quote was to illustrate that Hermione 
> doesn't give anyone *time* to volunteer.  She raises her hand and
> two seconds later blurts out the answer (that's how I read it
> anyway).  She doesn't give Prof. Sprout time to nod and say "Yes, 
> Hermione," or call on someone else.

I absolutely believe that Hermione, the good schoolkid, did not talk 
out in class (like I was always sent to the principal's office for 
doing.) JKR just didn't spend the words to say that Professor 
Sprout called on her. 

Incidentally, I don't identify with Hermione. I'm neither as smart 
nor as hard-working as she is, and my grades were terrible. And 
I'm a scaredycat, where she is brave. When asked which HP character I 
identify with, the only one I can think of is Moaning Myrtle.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 08:06:40 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:06:40 -0000
Subject: Some Questions, if I may
In-Reply-To: <18.443f8cc.2731b808@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ttrmg+p28k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5039

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, stephanie75 at a... wrote:

> How had Slytherin won the house cup 6 years in a row? If they
> haven't won the Quidditch cup alll of those years also, where are 
> they getting the points? Cheating? They don't seem to be the most
> intelligent, was Snape giving them extra points or something?

I think they *did* win the Quidditch Cup all those years. In fact, my 
timeline problem is that PoA makes it sound like Slytherin started 
their winning streak of the Quidditch Cup one year before their 
winning streak of the House Cup, which doesn't fit.

Also, just because Crabbe and Goyle are stupid (big and stupid: now, 
that's a stereotype!) doesn't mean that all Slytherins are. Even if 
all the ones in Harry's year were stupid, that doesn't mean that the 
older ones were stupid.

> And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he
> hates Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry
> thinks he's special and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by
> Dumbledore I would think he was a responsible adult. Instead he 
> acts like a jealous 10 year old holding a  grudge against an 
> innocent person.

The problem is your assumption that Snape should be a responsible 
adult. It is quite possible for a person to have a brilliant mind 
and a big talent (such as Potions) and a loyalty-to-the-death to an 
honorable cause, and still be immature, childish, and so on. My 
friend Lee's late father springs to mind. He was brilliant and 
honorable, and helpful to a zillion people, but for Lee's whole life, 
the way he treated her was exactly like sibling rivalry. E.G. when 
she was a teen-ager, he used to deliberately scratch her records (who 
remembers vinyl? shellac?).

> And why does he like Draco so much?

As he seems to have favored Draco from the first moment of meeting 
him, perhaps it was because Draco is the enemy of his enemy (Potter). 

Another possibility: maybe Draco really is a good student and *very* 
good at Potions, and Snape loves just about anyone (except Hermione!) 
who is *very* good at Potions. 

Another possibility: Draco looks like Lucius, maybe Snape likes Draco 
because of liking Lucius. I don't mean deliberately showing 
favoritism to a friend or financial benefactor's child, I mean the 
unconscious tendency to have a good feeling about someone who looks 
like your friend and a bad feeling about someone who looks like your 
enemy.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 08:14:48 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:14:48 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT
In-Reply-To: <005a01c0452e$0d87f540$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8tts5o+8pn1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5040

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:

> I think that Halloween/All Saint's Day was originally the pagan
> holiday of Samhain first, then the "church" of the time changed 
> their holidays to match the holidays of the pagans, so that they 
> could be encouraged to join the new religion.  Hence the reason we
>  wiccans celebrate Samhain (or the Wiccan New Year) on October 31st 

As I understand it, the original All Saints's Day was on May 1st, and 
was related somewhere to the Pantheon being converted to a Christian 
church under the name of All Saints'. The date of All Saints' Day was 
changed IIRC a couple of times, before ending up on Samhain for 
the reason you stated.

Btw, the Halloween season is the Mexican holiday, Dia de los Muertes, 
when everyone visits family graves and makes offrendas (altars to 
welcome the visiting dead relatives, adorned with marigolds, candles, 
a glass of water, a chair for the spirit to sit and rest after the 
journey, the dead person's favorite foods, and other things the dead 
person liked). While that description (I left out the candy skulls 
with the eater's name on them) sounds like the generic relationship 
being living and dead relatives anywhere in the world, many details 
make everyone certain that it is really an ancient MesoAmerican Pagan 
holiday with just the date changed when they turned Catholic.

And I have been told that the dressing up in costumes holiday is 
celebrated on December 28, the massacre of the innocents by King 
Herod.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov  3 09:35:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:35:26 -0000
Subject: Quidditch (was: Ron, Hermione and insecurities 
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGECLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8tu0su+ftg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5041

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon J. Branford" wrote:

> This could be a case of a vicious cycle. Ron does not have a good
> enough broom so is not good enough to get onto the team. Because he
> is not good enough to get on the team he cannot justify asking his
> parents for a better broom. So he cannot get on the team. His pride
> would not allow him to ask to borrow a broom from one of the others
> - so he may never get on the team, even though he may be good
> enough.

Ron didn't let his ridiculous stubborn pride keep him from asking to 
try out the Firebolt (I don't remember if he tried out the Nimbus 
2000). I don't think it's his pride that keeps him from borrowing a 
broom for the try-outs. Maybe it is that he knows or believes that 
his parents don't have enough money to buy him a decent broom even if 
he did get on the team. That would be kind of humiliating: get on the 
team because of using a Firebolt in the try-outs (I am impressed that 
Draco would have caught that Snitch, not Harry, if Draco and Harry 
had both had the same kind of broom, both Firebolts or both Nimbus 
2001s) and then have to resign from the team at the first practise 
because of not having a broom at all!




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Nov  3 09:45:15 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:45:15 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ancestor v Descendant Question and Sirius' vault
In-Reply-To: <39EB4725.88BF69AE@swbell.net>
References: <8sff8o+ta3e@eGroups.com> <39EB4725.88BF69AE@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <b2150tg8kt0uon4u3dioicpsfff4ichajr@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5042

Hello,

I know this is rather an old posting, but I wanted to add my two
cents.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:21:25 -0500, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer
<pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:

>Would all the UK people please check your editions of CoS -- does
>*anyone* have a UK edition that says "descendant"????

My UK paperback edition says "descendant", and so does the UK audio
version narrated by Stephen Fry. "Ancestor" doesn't make sense at all
to me.

I also wonder why they left out the number of Sirius' Gringott's vault
in the US edition. It's in the UK paperback, and it's also in the
German translation (I suppose it is based on the UK edition). BTW, has
anyone noticed that this vault must be located in Gringott's high
security area, because it is near vault Nr. 713 where the
Philosopher's stone was kept? Why did Sirius need a high security
vault, what's in there other than his gold?

greetings,
Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Nov  3 11:43:25 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:43:25 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yule Ball pairings (F/A)/Quidditch Cup
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001103114325.0091be64@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5043

Catlady wrote:

<<<<<I suppose that when Fred said he was going to the ball with Angelina 
and Harry said "Have you asked her yet?" and Fred shouted across the 
room to Angelina: "Want to go to the ball with me?" (all paraphrased) 
that showed that Fred and Angelina were at least 'going steady' so 
that they could both take it for granted that they were going to 
the ball together without having had to discuss it.>>>>>

You could be right, but that exchange could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Fred announces "promptly" that he's going to ball with Angelina before he
asks her and he doesn't show any embarrassment.  She gives him an
"appraising" look before accepting.  If they were going steady, wouldn't
people assume they were going to the ball as a couple anyway?  Why would
Harry need to ask Fred if he had asked Angelina yet?  If they were going
steady in secret, I doubt they would have bellowed at each other across the
room like that.

Since they are on the same Quidditch team, I imagine that Fred and Angelina
are already pretty good mates and, as far as we can tell, neither of them is
a shrinking violet.  I'd say that they were seriously interested in each
other, but needed to use this rather brazen way of getting together.  Some
people, like Harry, choke on their words and turn to jelly when they ask
someone out.  Other people, like Fred or Angelina, take a more direct 'yeah
- why not?' approach and seem to shrug off any rejection.  I don't think the
second type of person is any less nervous on the inside: in both cases the
adrenaline is really pumping, but some fight while others take flight.

Catlady also said, about Slytherin winning the Quidditch Cup:

<<<<I think they *did* win the Quidditch Cup all those years. In fact, my 
timeline problem is that PoA makes it sound like Slytherin started 
their winning streak of the Quidditch Cup one year before their 
winning streak of the House Cup, which doesn't fit.>>>>>

Hmmmmm. Are you assuming that the winners of the Quidditch Cup automatically
win the House Cup?  Although we haven't seen them, I'd assume there are
other inter-House events which win large amounts of points, so it is
probably possible for Slytherin to win the Quidditch Cup and not get the
House Cup.  There are also the points won and lost by individual students,
which could affect the final scores.

Neil    


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From HarryPotterJrs at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 13:53:54 2000
From: HarryPotterJrs at aol.com (HarryPotterJrs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:53:54 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione, a Q
Message-ID: <2b.ca50e9d.27341d72@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5044

Something I wonder about Hermione:  Her parents are both Muggles. So did she 
have any inkling she would go to Hogwoarts until she recieved notice on her 
11th birthday?  Did she just go to 'regular' school, and then go off to Witch 
school?  This would be interesting to know.
~shahara in WI
(I read the books a while ago, and am now re-reading them, so forgive me if 
this has an obvious answer.)



From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 14:33:19 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:33:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Satanic Conspiracy
References: <8tmn1m+eq14@eGroups.com> <007601c04356$908ecce0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch> <3A00E967.FA0FA699@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c045a3$047c1380$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5045

Err ... perhaps I should have let that post cool down over night.

> But if you're talking about the second magazine, I understand your point.
Like
> you, I'm a Christian, and it's painful to see others who claim to hate
JKR's
> work BECAUSE they are Christians (and PARTICULARLY after all the work I've
been
> doing to trace Harry's moral development in the series.  I mean, c'mon!
Haven't
> they ever bothered to read these books they're condemning?)  It's even
more
> painful to see them fall for the Onion's parody, hook, line and sinker.
Their
> doing so both makes them look like knee-jerk, stupid fools, and moreover,
it
> causes damage to the reputation of Rowling and her work, which we love, by
> spreading a stupid (parody) lie about Rowling even further.  Nobody is a
winner
> here, except perhaps the Onion, who can laugh at us all.

Right! I meant the Christian magazine, of course. The Onion doesn't have
anything to retract: I'm not all that wild about their style of burlesque
(another parody in the form of an Amazon book page for HP5 nearly put me in
hospital from laughing), but that's my taste buds. (Mind you, that's saying
a lot--we goats are known liking just about ... um ... oh never mind.) I
haven't got ahold of the editor yet, but I have received about 5 other
emails or phone calls over the last week in response to the rumor. (I'm a
known HP fanatic in my corner of the world, and this particular urban legend
is making the rounds among German speakers.)

Which reminds me: does anyone have a URL or transcript of the Rowling
interview from Toronto, where she called someone a lunatic for asking
whether she's a Satanist?  Like it or not, it seems that I going to spend a
week or so as a Harry Potter activist, so I might as well find a good
rebuttal straight from the horse's mouth. (BTW, that's a very speciesist
idiom, if you ask me.)

Yuk! I thought Harry Potter was one of the few things in life I *didn't*
have to be serious about. <sigh>

Steadfastly refusing to be got,

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat

P.S. Anyone who is curious about the rumour can check it here (you may need
to fix the URL):
http://www.urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa0809
00a.htm .




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Nov  3 14:54:17 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:54:17 -0600
Subject: The Death of Harry
References: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A02D199.2E27E9B8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5046

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Those who think Rowling would never consider killing Harry will find
> this interview by Evan Solomon disturbing.

Actually, I didn't find it disturbing at all.  <g>  There's no mention
of Harry.  It just says that she *knows* who will die in each of the
remaining books.  That's no big surprise as we've all known she has a
pretty good roadmap for the plots.  She's going to kill people we love.
Also not a big surprise -- most all of us assume that Hagrid,
Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, Ron, Hermione and Harry are all possible
targets.  But, I think I speak for alot of people when I say that I just
don't think she'll kill Harry off in the end -- I think he'll be
battered, war-weary and have suffered considerable loss before it's all
said & done, but I doubt that he'll be dead on the last page of Book 7.
Of the people I listed above, I'd bet that 2 of them will die -- and the
2 I listed first are the ones most likely in mind.  In fact, I think I
unconsciously prioritized exactly what my thoughts are as I typed those
names.  <g> Although, I will concede that there are very strong
arguments that Sirius could be one of the deaths.

> On the bright side I think Ron is safe, she thinks the death of a sidekick is too
>
> predictable:
>
Ummm . .  . I don't know.  She seems to just be pointing out that kids
are all worried about Ron, and she concedes that's because they're sharp
enough to know that the death of a hero's best friend is frequent in
literature.  In some other interviews, she's made this same observation
& asked why noone seems concerned about Hermione.  This lack of concern
about Hermione seems to bother her.  The interviewers all say -- "Ah . .
. we all assume Hermione is going to be just fine.  It's Ron we're all
worried about."

This is a great interview btw (the Solomon interview).  I've relied on
it quite alot in doing the FAQs on JKR & Hermione.  It's during this
interview that she makes it so abundantly clear just how much she loves
Hermione & how much Hermione *is* JKR (not just a caricature of her
younger bossy know-it-all self).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov  3 15:15:47 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:15:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: qUIDDITcH (WAS Ron, Hermione and insecurities  (this is probably quite long)
References: <8ttqbe+g69u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A02D6A1.EF3B5FFC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5047

Rita Winston wrote:

> IIRC, when Cedric was introduced, he was said to be Hufflepuff's new
> Seeker and new Captain, which really made me question why a new team
> member would be chosen as Captain.

Does Cedric being the new Seeker necessarily mean he wasn't on the team
before? He could have been playing another position, and been the most
likely for the Seeker when it came open.

Just a thought.

--Amanda




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Nov  3 15:15:32 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:15:32 -0000
Subject: Fred and Angelina
In-Reply-To: <8ttqbe+g69u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tukqk+f2gf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5048


> 
> I suppose that when Fred said he was going to the ball with 
Angelina 
> and Harry said "Have you asked her yet?" and Fred shouted across 
the 
> room to Angelina: "Want to go to the ball with me?" (all 
paraphrased) 
> that showed that Fred and Angelina were at least 'going steady' so 
> that they could both take it for granted that they were going to 
> the ball together without having had to discuss it.

I don't think it showed that they are an item at all. It showed that 
Fred and George are popular and probably hang around with a large 
group of boys and girls. We see that in the common room a lot. I had 
a group like that in high school. I could have and did just ask any 
of the girls on the spur of the moment to go to something and we 
would have both known that it wasn't anything serious, we would have 
just had a good time. That doesn't mean that we didn't treat it like 
a date--there were even good-night kisses sometimes--but it wasn't 
anything serious. I think JKR put that scene in the book specifially 
to show the contrast between the torment Harry and Ron were going 
through and the casual, confident way the older boys handled things. 
Seeing how easy it was for Fred just made Harry and Ron squirm even 
more (and made that section of the book even more delicious). But 
there's no indication, IMHO, that Fred and Angelina are an item.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Fri Nov  3 15:52:22 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:52:22 -0000
Subject: this game sucks
In-Reply-To: <3A021E17.87E1A620@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8tumvm+3vui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5049

OK Heidi calm down... it's only a game!

Question for you... what game?   Is it the one by University Games?
Or is it by someone else? 

Have you thought about sending your comments to the manufacturer - 
being an attorney, you can phrase a very nice letter to them I am 
sure.  I wonder why they didn't use the word Muggle - maybe someone 
has trademarked it.

> Second, whoever decided to entitle one of the "categories" as "non 
magic folk" instead of muggles should have his or her head boiled in 
one of snape's cauldrons.

Agreed... now who's head do we need.  Can you contact the 
manufacturer and ask for someones head to be sent UPS so it can be 
boiled.

> cards rebounded against me because they said that everyone in a 
house selected by the cursed person had to pass their cards to the 
left which meant that he kept getting my cards! 

Hmm... think if I played, the goldfish would have to sit on my left.

> Fourth, they made these "legend" cards but they don't *do* anything.

A future enhancement perhaps?  Maybe they will have a patch for the 
game downloadable from their website in the future?   Hmm... then 
again, maybe NOT.
 
> The questions themselves are fine, 

Well, at least that's OK - have you found any mistakes yet, ie. 
incorrect correct answers?

>and we're not *unhappy* that we bought it, but we
>expected more - or at least something more coherent.

Think I will need to get this game, and keep it in it's packaging - 
for sale in a few years time as a mint condition set.

Nick.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Nov  3 16:07:07 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:07:07 -0000
Subject: The Death of Harry
In-Reply-To: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tunrb+lp7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5050

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Those who think Rowling would never consider killing Harry will find 
> this interview by Evan Solomon disturbing. On the bright side I 
think 
> Ron is safe, she thinks the death of a sidekick is too predictable:
> 
> Solomon: Characters take on their own lives, have their own stories. 
> Writers often say, "I loved that character and the most tragic part 
> of my year was having to kill him off."
>  
> Rowling: That's coming.
> 
> Solomon: Do you know already who is going to die in the next books? 
> 
> Rowling: I know all of them who are going to die.
>  
> Solomon: Some of the characters we might love and you might love? 
> 
> Rowling: I'm definitely killing people I love, yeah. It's horrible, 
> isn't it? ...I cried during the writing of that one [Book Four] for 
> the first time ever. It really upset me. 
>  
> Solomon: It opens with a murder and then there's one at the end. I 
> won't say who it is. You cried then? 
> 
> Rowling: Yeah. 
> 
> Solomon: But in the future there's --
>  
> Rowling: There's worse coming. 
> 
> Solomon: People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to 
> knock off Ron because he's the best friend. 
> 
> Rowling: Kids do, because they're sharp and they've seen so many 
> films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going 
> to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double 
bluff...
> It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, "you're 
> going, you're going, you're going." There are reasons for the deaths 
> in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it. 
> 

Harry has experienced 2 categories of death in his life: death of his 
parents and death of someone in his peer group. 

I think the next person to die will be an adult. Probably, Dumbledore. 
In PS/SS, Dumbledore tells Harry that to a well organized mind death 
is another adventure (or something like that). In GoF, Hagrid tells 
Harry that everything will be okay as long as Dumbledore is around (or 
something like that). By killing off Dumbledore it will 1. cause 
conflict and confusion in the wizarding world (more drama/trauma for 
the book)and 2. give an opening to Harry for a "leadership" role. IMO, 
the death should affect the wizarding world to tie in with Voldemort's 
new reign of terror.

Sirius' death would make for good personal drama/trauma. However, it 
won't have a "great" impact on the wizarding world.

Lupin's and McGonagall's death would be sad for Harry, but it won't 
have a great impact on the wizarding world as a whole.

So my votes for a "Death Pool" would be 
1. Dumbledore in Book 6
2. Snape in Book 7
3. Harry in Book 7.

:-) Milz  




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 16:09:11 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:09:11 -0000
Subject: Muggles for Harry Potter
Message-ID: <8tunv7+8p93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5051

I just got an email from the Muggles for Harry Potter group, which 
fights censorship of the HP books.  They are changing their name to 
Kidspeak, so as to make their group more of a general anti-censorship 
of kids books group.  They are offering a last chance to buy Muggles 
for Harry Potter buttons and posters before they change their name.  
The poster is very cool; I have it hanging right above my computer.  
I believe the artwork is by Mary Grandpre, it looks like her style 
anyway.  Anyway, go to this website:

http://www.abffe.com

and you can get a poster and 2 buttons for $15.

-- Joywitch




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Nov  3 16:12:20 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:12:20 -0000
Subject: this game sucks
In-Reply-To: <8tumvm+3vui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tuo54+jmja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5052

nick wrote:
> I wonder why they didn't use the word Muggle - maybe someone 
> has trademarked it.

If Rowling is being sued for using the word "muggle", perhaps the 
manufacturer of this game wanted to avoid legal action too?

:-)Milz




From r.yoo at scotland.com  Fri Nov  3 16:53:00 2000
From: r.yoo at scotland.com (r.yoo at scotland.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:53:00 -0000
Subject: HP Halloween
Message-ID: <8tuqhc+l434@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5053

I went to the Ann Arbor Halloween Concert.  Everyone in the audience 
and the orchestra wears a costume.  I had expected to see alot of 
wizards and witches, but one costume in partiuclar was very creative. 
A little girl was wearing a torn up white sheet and her face was 
painted white.  Around her neck was an old toilet seat.  She was 
Moaning Myrtle!  This old man came up to her and was like "What are 
you supposed to be?  I thought it was very creative and unique 
costume.




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Nov  3 17:25:59 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 3 Nov 2000 09:25:59 -0800
Subject: I have a problem.
Message-ID: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5054

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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov  3 17:31:02 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:31:02 -0000
Subject: Thoughts on Relationships
In-Reply-To: <8ttpap+91lu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tusom+vh0s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5055

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> Btw, I did already read Peg Kerr's post on this thread, and when I 
> first posted the first part of 'Cedric's Funeral', Pippin (foxmoth, 
> is it?) e-mailed me suggesting that what Cho is up to, in the 
> conversation she starts with Harry, is that she wants to ask him what 
> happened to Cedric. 

	Rita, thanks for posting the rest of your fic. I like the way it 
turned out. I was satisfied that Cho didn't need to ask Harry about 
what happened to Cedric once I realized that in your universe Cho would 
have formed a relationship with the Diggory family, and they could have 
told her enough for her peace. I think she would still want to ask 
Harry about it, but it wouldn't be such a pressing issue. 
Pippin aka foxmoth





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 18:54:40 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:54:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles for Harry Potter
References: <8tunv7+8p93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010101c045c7$90a1b8a0$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5056

How do you get those?

I visited the link, but this poor blonde got lost....


And I would love to have a poster...


(And thanks again Heidi for the Al Gore button! :) )

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:09 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles for Harry Potter


> I just got an email from the Muggles for Harry Potter group, which 
> fights censorship of the HP books.  They are changing their name to 
> Kidspeak, so as to make their group more of a general anti-censorship 
> of kids books group.  They are offering a last chance to buy Muggles 
> for Harry Potter buttons and posters before they change their name.  
> The poster is very cool; I have it hanging right above my computer.  
> I believe the artwork is by Mary Grandpre, it looks like her style 
> anyway.  Anyway, go to this website:
> 
> http://www.abffe.com
> 
> and you can get a poster and 2 buttons for $15.
> 
> -- Joywitch
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> .
> l to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> .


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Nov  3 18:07:32 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:07:32 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I have a problem.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001103180732.0091862c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5057

At 09:25 11/03/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>And it's said that the first step in helping solve your problem is
admitting that you have one at all.  Okay then.  Here goes:
>
>Hi, my name is Voicelady, and I'm a Harryaholic.

You poor, brave thing.  You need to check into my recently-opened Flying
Ford Clinic for treatment.  Easy terms available.

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Nov  3 18:20:52 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 3 Nov 2000 10:20:52 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I have a problem.
Message-ID: <20001103182052.957.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5058

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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov  3 18:19:36 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:19:36 -0000
Subject: I have a problem.
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001103180732.0091862c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8tuvjo+5v9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5059

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> At 09:25 11/03/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >And it's said that the first step in helping solve your problem is
> admitting that you have one at all.  Okay then.  Here goes:
> >
> >Hi, my name is Voicelady, and I'm a Harryaholic.
> 
> You poor, brave thing.  You need to check into my recently-opened Flying
> Ford Clinic for treatment.  Easy terms available.
> 
> Neil
> 
 Neil, I find myself clicking compulsively between this list, the PoU 
list and the ffnet site. Please tell me, is there any hope, <sob,sob>?
Pippin





From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Nov  3 18:32:43 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:32:43 -0000
Subject: I have a problem.
In-Reply-To: <20001103182052.957.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8tv0cb+7bh6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5060

Yesterday the head of children's services for our public library 
group wanted to talk to me about my website. They're planning HP 
events and might get me involved. I got all excited and chatted about 
the missing 24 hours, which floor Moaning Myrtle's bathroom was on, 
the fact that the dates in the book when the werewolf is supposed to 
change doesn't REALLY match a full moon, etc. I told her I had 
timelined CS day by day and was rereading GF for the fourth time. She 
laughed and shook her head.

Then I told her about you guys. THAT was when she started backing 
away slowly, trying not to make any sudden moves...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/svderark/lexicon




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 19:19:50 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:19:50 -0000
Subject: Happy Halloween everyone/mildly OT/
In-Reply-To: <3A0230C4.604FAE29@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8tv34m+p8o5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5061

To answer my own question, Halloween is essentially derived from
the Celtic holiday of Samhain.  Modern traditions in the U.S. also
derive from All Souls Day and a few scattered customs in the rest of 
Europe.

Samhain is still observed by modern witches/wiccans as one of the
Eight Major pagan holidays, and in fact of the eight four tend to be 
more important than the eight. The eight are the two solstices, the 
two equinoxes, and Samhain, Beltane (May 1st), Lammas, and Imbolc.
Those four have other names as well......

See next post for long drawn out info

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 19:29:15 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:29:15 EST
Subject: history of Halloween - long and essentially OT
Message-ID: <63.d3fbed3.27346c0b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5062

Halloween and its origin.

Halloween, or All Hallows Eve, is a festival celebrated on 31 October, 
the evening prior to the Christian Feast of All Saints (All Saints' 
Day). Halloween is the name for the eve of Samhain, (pronounced sow-in) a 
celebration 
marking the beginning of winter as well as the first day of the New Year
within the ancient Celtic culture of the British Isles. (beginning around 
2000 B.C.)The time of  Samhain consisted of the eve of the feast and the day 
itself (31 October
and 1 November ).

This event was a crucial seam in the social and religious fabric of the 
Celtic year, and the eve of Samhain set the tone for the annual 
celebration as a threatening, fantastic, mysterious rite of passage to a
new year.

The religious belief of the Celts emphasized pastoral deities, and 
Celtic festivals stressed seasonal transitions.

Beltane, the beginning of summer, was celebrated at the end of April and
the beginning of May. Samhain signaled the commencement of winter and, 
together with Beltane, divided the year into cold and hot seasons.

Samhain marked the end of preparations for winter, when flocks and herds
had been secured and harvested crops had been stored.

The eve of this festival brought with it another kind of harvest. On 
this occasion, it was believed that a gathering of supernatural forces 
occurred as during no other period of the year. The eve and day of 
Samhain were characterized as a time when the barriers between the human
and supernatural worlds were broken.

Otherworldly entities, such as the souls of the dead, were able to visit
earthly inhabitants, and humans could take the opportunity to penetrate 
the domains of the gods and supernatural creatures. Fiery tributes and 
sacrifices of animals, crops, and possibly human beings were made to 
appease supernatural powers that controlled the fertility of the land. 
Not a festival honoring any particular Celtic deity, Samhain 
acknowledged the entire spectrum of nonhuman forces that roamed the 
earth during that period.

Given the upheaval of normal human activities and expectations on the 
eve and day of Samhain, it was also thought to be an especially 
propitious time for ascertaining information about the future course of 
one's life. Individuals used various methods of divination 
attempting to discover their fortunes, good or ill, and to foretell 
events such as marriage, sickness, or death.

Druids built huge sacred bonfires, where the people gathered to burn crops as 
sacrifices. During the celebration, people wore costumes, often consisting of 
animal heads and skins to emphasize the connection between humans and animals.
When the celebrations were over, the people re-lit their hearth fires (which 
they had extinguished earlier in the evening) from the sacred bonfire. This 
emphasized the cycle of life and the seasons.

By A.D. 43, the Romans had conquered the majority of Celtic territory. In the 
course
of the four hundred years that they ruled the Celtic lands, two festivals of 
Roman origin were combined with the traditional Celtic celebration of 
Samhain. The first was Feralia, a day in late October when the Romans 
traditionally commemorated the passing of the dead. The second was a day to 
honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is 
the apple and the incorporation of this celebration into Samhain may explain 
the tradition of bobbing for apples.

Samhain remained a popular festival among the Celtic people throughout 
the christianization of Great Britain.

The British church attempted to divert this interest in pagan customs by
adding a Christian celebration to the calendar on the same date as 
Samhain.  Pope Boniface IV designated November 1st  as All Saints Day. 
The Christian festival, the Feast of All Saints, commemorates 
the known and unknown saints and martyrs of the Christian religion just as 
Samhain 
had acknowledged and paid tribute to the Celtic deities. The eve of the 
Celtic festival was also christianized, becoming the Vigil of All Saints
or All Hallows Eve (with special offices existing in both the Anglican 
and Roman churches). The medieval British commemoration of All Saints' 
Day may have prompted the universal celebration of this feast throughout
the Christian church.

The customs of Samhain survived independently of the Christian holy day.

Gradually, the eve of All Hallows (Halloween) lost much of its Celtic 
religious significance for the masses, and it became a secular 
observance, although many traditionally Celtic ideas continued to be 
associated with the evening. Divination activities remained a popular 
practice. Adults, dressed in fantastic disguises and masks, imitated 
supernatural beings and visited homes where occupants would offer 
tributes of food and drink to them. A fear of nocturnal creatures, such 
as bats and owls, persisted, since these animals were believed to 
communicate with the spirits of the dead.

Halloween was celebrated only in the Celtic areas of Great Britain: 
Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and northern rural England. In non-Celtic 
England, many of the customs of Halloween were assimilated into a 
commemorative festival that arose in the seventeenth century as the 
celebration of Guy Fawkes Day (5 November). English Protestant settlers 
in the New World did not bring the custom of Halloween with them in any 
organized way.
 Irish  and Scottish immigrants introduced scattered All Hallows Eve 
observances 
to America, but it was only in the years after the massive immigration 
of the Irish to the United States during the potato famine (1845-1846) 
that Halloween became a national event. Americans began to dress up in 
costume, and go house to house asking for food or money. Young women believed 
that, on Halloween they could divine the name or appearance of their future 
husband by doing tricks with yarn, apple parings or mirrors.

The American tradition of "trick or treating" probably dates back to the 
early All Souls' Day parades in England. During the festivities, poor 
citizens would beg for food and families would give them pastries called 
"soul cakes" in return for their promise to pray for the family's dead 
relatives. The distribution of soul cakes was encouraged by the church as a 
way to replace the ancient practice of leaving food and wine for roaming 
spirits. The practice, which was referred to as children who would visit the 
houses in their neighborhood and be given ale, food, and money eventually 
took up "going-a-souling".

The tradition of dressing in costume has both European and Celtic roots (see 
above Druids) Some thought that they might encounter ghosts if they left 
their home in the dark. To avoid being recognized, people would wear masks. 

 Americans began to dress up in costume, and go house to house asking for 
food or money. Young women believed that, on Halloween they could divine the 
name or appearance of their future husband by doing tricks with yarn, apple 
parings or mirrors.

In the late 1800s, there we a move in American to mold Halloween into a 
holiday more about community and neighborly get-togethers, than about ghosts, 
pranks, and witchcraft. At the turn of the century, Halloween parties for 
both children and adults became the most common method to celebrate the day. 
Parents were encouraged by newspapers and community leaders to take anything 
frightening or grotesque out of Halloween celebrations. Thus, Halloween lost 
most of its superstitious and religious overtones by the beginning of the 
20th century.

By the 1920s and 1930s, Halloween had become a secular holiday. Vandalism 
began to plague celebrations and in the 1950s had to be strenuously 
addressed. Only in the last five years, for example, has the city of Detroit 
stemmed the tide of setting fires on "Devil's night".

Modern Halloween activities have centered on mischief making and 
masquerading in costumes, often resembling otherworldly characters. Folk
customs, now treated as games have continued from the various divination 
practices of the ancient 
celebrants of this occasion. Supernatural figures (such as the ghost, 
the witch, the vampire, the devil) lay a key role in supplying an aura 
of the mysterious to the evening, whether or not they originally had an 
association with the festival. Children are particularly susceptible to 
the imagery of Halloween, as can be seen in their fascination with the 
demonic likeness of a carved and illuminated pumpkin, known as the 
jack-o'-lantern. In recent times, children have taken up the practice of
dressing in Halloween costumes and visiting homes in search of edible and
monetary treats, lightly threatening to play a trick on the owner if a 
treat is not produced. Some kids would collect money for UNESCO, thus 
giving the holiday a unique benevolent flavor. There also has been 
renewed interest in Halloween as a time when adults can also cross 
cultural boundaries and shed their identities by indulging in an 
uninhibited evening of frivolity.  There is a strong tradition within the gay 
community
of Halloween as a time for drag queens to come out of the woodwork.
Thus, the basic Celtic quality of the 
festival as an evening of annual escape from normal realities and 
expectations has remained into the twentieth century.

Halloween is therefore a secular holiday.

Modern day witches, wiccans and pagans celebrate their (some say) most 
important
holiday on Samhain/October 31st. It is often called the Witches New Year. 
Samhain
derives some elements from its ancient forebearers. The veil between the 
worlds is considered thin. Some perform divination. Many honor their 
ancestors.  Many remember the witches burned in Europe. It's a harvest 
holiday, honoring the turn of the season. Some invoke the dying god who will 
be reborn in the spring.
More information is available at http://www.witchvox.com. Witches emphasize 
that they do not worship the devil, sacrifice animals or people, and are a 
nature based non-violent spiritual practice.

Some Christians currently criticize the celebration of Halloween stating that 
it is a religious holiday about Satan worship, and black magic. 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Nov  3 19:41:24 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:41:24 -0000
Subject: Hermione; strong female characters
In-Reply-To: <3A02389A.E8D24457@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8tv4d4+10282@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5063

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> > That's what I mean when I say that,anyway.  I think Hermione is a
> > wonderfully strong character--smart, brave, loyal, sensible, 
adventurous,
> > compassionate, etc.  I'd like to
> > see more of her 'inner' self, but don't expect that to happen.
> 
> I do! I think that's exactly what we're seeing, for all three of 
the major
> characters.  We're watching the shaping of Hermione's character, as 
well as
> Ron's and Harry's.

I do understand what you're saying, and I realize that through words 
and actions we're learning who the characters are, as perhaps they 
are themselves.  I suppose what I'm thinking of are the thought 
processes Hermione has; we see what Harry's 'thinking' through the 
series, and this is what I would like from Hermione's pov.  What we 
see of her is always through Harry's eyes.  (I wish I could express 
myself as skillfully as so many on this list.  I often feel I'm not 
getting my thoughts across clearly. <g>) 
 
> > I would just like a female [adult] who's as vivid and charismatic 
as those
> > men.  <snip>
> > I'd love to see what she [Rowling] does with a strong, _adult_ 
female.
> 
> Which is why I'll be very curious to see what she does with the 
female DADA
> teacher she's going to introduce (it was going to be the next book, 
wasn't
> it?  Did she say that specifically?)  I'd be particularly 
interested to see
> how Hermione will interact with her.
> 
> Peg
> (who is strong and female)

Yes, I'm very eager to see the the new female DADA prof too.  I don't 
believe JKR specified which book she'll be in, though.  IIRC, JKR 
just confirmed that there will be one.  Perhaps the real Moody will 
be the next DADA prof, then return to his auror career for book 6.  
Vold will be more of a force by then, I would suspect.  Ah, well--
speculations, speculations...

Kelley
(female; and pretty strong, herself) ;o]  




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Nov  3 19:47:13 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 13:47:13 -0600
Subject: I have a problem.
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5064

Hi:


> Hi, my name is Voicelady, and I'm a Harryaholic.

Hi, my name is Penny, and I'm also a Harryaholic.

> I am obsessed.  It started with the books.  <snip> Harry Potter became
> a daily topic of conversation for me.  I thought about him.  I
> theorized about him.  I joined *clubs* about him!

And, I began to read 50-100+ messages a day about him and his world.  I
became obsessed with all the little details of his world.

> And then came an even larger step.  I became [whimper] a pusher.
> "Here, try this, you'll like it.  It's just a kids' book.  It's fun.
> It'll make you feel good."  I found myself supplying all of my friends
> at work.
>
> But then [sob], I found out I might have to wait for two whole years
> for the next installment!  What was I to do?  I'll tell you what I was
> to do!  I began buying different versions of the books:  Canadian, UK
> with kids' covers, UK with grown up covers, gift sets, special
> editions, I just couldn't stop myself!  Did it matter that they were
> all the same, really?  No!  They were Harry Potter - I had to have
> them!

I know.  I know.  UK editions, collector editions -- I am obsessed with
having them all.

> And then came the neat little *things*: bookends, buttons, posters,
> puzzles, keychains, games, Quidditch game cards, snowglobes, clocks.
> It goes on and on and never ends!  I find myself wandering past my
> Hallmark and WB stores on a daily basis, even if I have no other
> reason to be there!

And don't forget those audio versions!  You know -- the reason I haven't
heard anything new on the radio in about 9 months.  I am never without
one of those boxed sets in my car.  But, it didn't stop there.  I began
to wonder what would happen if I actually did get a CD player in my
car.  I asked for the CDs for gifts.  I furtively added the GoF CDs to
my GoF book order from amazon -- hoping my husband wouldn't notice too
much.  Now, I have the tapes and the CDs.

My study is rapidly becoming a shrine to Harry Potter.

And, Voicelady, you forgot about your addiction to HP fanfic.  I know
that's a problem for you too, dear.  It's okay to admit it.

Yes . . . we all need to check ourselves into the Flying Ford Anglia
Clinic I'm afraid.

Penny (whose birthday is tomorrow, hint, hint!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 22:11:04 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:11:04 -0600
Subject: Wicca, etc....
References: <63.d3fbed3.27346c0b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301c045e3$04c22920$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5065

For more info on Wicca, witchcraft, paganism, or the like, here's a page
with alot of links...

http://www.witchvox.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: <Schlobin at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 1:29 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] history of Halloween - long and essentially OT


> Halloween and its origin.
>
> Halloween, or All Hallows Eve, is a festival celebrated on 31 October,
> the evening prior to the Christian Feast of All Saints (All Saints'
> Day). Halloween is the name for the eve of Samhain, (pronounced sow-in) a
> celebration
> marking the beginning of winter as well as the first day of the New Year
> within the ancient Celtic culture of the British Isles. (beginning around
> 2000 B.C.)The time of  Samhain consisted of the eve of the feast and the
day
> itself (31 October
> and 1 November ).
>



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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 22:16:26 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:16:26 -0600
Subject: Fw: Free Shipping at Barnes & Noble.com!  (Great for Penny's birthday!)
Message-ID: <002701c045e3$c4462d00$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5066


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barnes & Noble.com" <BNcom_BNCoupon at email.bn.com>
To: <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:19 PM
Subject: Free Shipping at Barnes & Noble.com!


> Dear Barnes & Noble.com customer,
> 
> Visit Barnes & Noble.com today and take advantage of free shipping on 
> books, music, movies, and more! This fall, check out the Academy 
> Award-winning blockbuster, AMERICAN BEAUTY; relax to the sweet sounds 
> of Celine Dion's latest collection; let the Fab Four keep you company 
> during cool autumn nights with THE BEATLES ANTHOLOGY; or bring home a 
> little magic with a book, poster, or calendar from our Harry Potter 
> store! You'll find all the hottest new releases, bestsellers, and more 
> on our award-winning site. Order today and receive free shipping on 
> your next purchase of $40 or more!
> 
> Click Here:
> http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eC5v0B11MB0xp0CrZ1  
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Your Friends at Barnes & Noble.com
> 
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: 
> If you do not wish to receive future e-mail updates, 
> please click here:
> http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/profile?y=eC5v0B11MB0xph 
> 
> 


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From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 21:56:35 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 235
Message-ID: <20001103215635.16246.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5067


> And the big one is why does Snape hate Harry so much? I know why he
> hates Harry's dad and James' friends, and he thinks that Harry
> thinks he's special and above rules. But if Snape is so trusted by
> Dumbledore I would think he was a responsible adult. Instead he 
> acts like a jealous 10 year old holding a  grudge against an 
> innocent person.

>>The problem is your assumption that Snape should be a responsible 
adult. It is quite possible for a person to have a brilliant mind 
and a big talent (such as Potions) and a loyalty-to-the-death to an 
honorable cause, and still be immature, childish, and so on.<<

Ever see "Amadeus?" I love that movie (favorite movie, by the way) and Mozart was
just like that (childish, immature). I hear Albert Einstein had poor social skills
as well.

From,

Anake





=====
==========
Anthony Freemont (age 6): He shouldn't have thought those bad thoughts. That's why I made him go on fire! --It's a Good Life (Twilight Zone)
====
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ICQ: 37150285
Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)
====

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From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 21:59:21 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:59:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 235
Message-ID: <20001103215921.16747.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5068

>>Actually, I didn't find it disturbing at all.  <g>  There's no mention
of Harry.  It just says that she *knows* who will die in each of the
remaining books.  That's no big surprise as we've all known she has a
pretty good roadmap for the plots.  She's going to kill people we love.<<

I hope she doesn't kill off Neville, but that's a guess of mine of who will die by
the 7th book. Neville is one of my favorite characters. 

From,

Anake


=====
==========
Anthony Freemont (age 6): He shouldn't have thought those bad thoughts. That's why I made him go on fire! --It's a Good Life (Twilight Zone)
====
YAHOO! MESSANGER: neptune_1984
ICQ: 37150285
Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)
====

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From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 22:05:09 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:05:09 -0000
Subject: In defense of Ron
In-Reply-To: <8ts31m+9jjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8tvcql+ulgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5069


> 
>    Actually, the incident I referred to came at the end of SS/PS 
when 
> they were discussing going through the trap door.  Harry reminded 
> Hermione and Ron that they could be expelled if they went along 
with 
> him and she was explaining how she could go along free from the 
> danger of expulsion.  She seems to be rubbing it in a bit that she 
> did so well and it could be seen that her comment was aimed at Ron 
> who was included in Harry's warning.
>    As I mentioned, I don't have anything against Hermione.  I think 
> she gains her self-esteem from academic success and I can easily 
> identify with that but in this case she doesn't use good judgement 
by 
> disguising a boast as a reason to risk being thrown out.  I still 
> don't believe that if all 3 were caught, the professors would 
choose 
> who to expel based on their grades.


I don't know if Hermione was right or not, but I don't think she 
was "rubbing it in". I think she was being descriptive about her 
grades. When women/girls are descriptively positive about themselves, 
they are sometimes seen as "showing off" or "bragging" because some 
people
are used to socialized female deprecation (I know this sounds stupid, 
but.......or don't you think that?)

Ron and Harry are singularly unimpressed with her good grades and 
time in the library, so they wouldn't be too good an audience for 
boasting.

She's offering to do a daring thing, with some risk. She's convincing 
the boys to let her do it. We don't even know if she believes she 
will get off.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Nov  3 22:06:31 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:06:31 -0000
Subject: Speculations re: Cho (was: Thoughts on Relationships)
In-Reply-To: <20001102133834.5007.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8tvct7+t0nf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5070

> I think this is a very likely scenario.  And though I'm not a 
shipper at all (they're still kids!), I'd love to see it open the way 
for Cho to be introduced as a fourth friend.  After what's happened, 
she may very well want to join our friends as they continually fight 
Voldemort.
> 
> voicelady
> 

I'm somewhat more interested in what Cho's work or career will be 
(will she play quidditch for England?) than with whom she becomes 
involved (if anyone)




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Fri Nov  3 22:19:04 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:19:04 -0000
Subject: Good News and Bad News
Message-ID: <003501c045e4$28953120$72977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5071

Hi all

Good News First

PayPal have finally managed to get International Payments sorted out -
YES... now I can buy all that nice merchandise from Ebay sellers.

If anyone does not know what PayPal is (I presume you have been on Mars for
the last 6 months!) then you can find out more - and create an International
Account, or US account at:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/refer/pal=nick%40dvd-films.freeuk.com

Bad News

I have still be unable to get any more of the Ford Anglia mugs.  Will keep
trying, they are quite cheap (WBros does not supply them) and though not the
1960's version, are still a nice addition to a collection.

Nick.





From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  3 22:39:39 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:39:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Personalities/order of children
Message-ID: <20001103223939.25906.qmail@web4803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5072


--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:

> I clearly remember the frustration of *constantly* stretching my hand 
> all the way to the ceiling (and eventually waving it around) for what 
> certainly *seemed* like a good fifteen minutes, in which no one else 
> ever raised their hand, and the teacher called on them *anyway*, and 
> they gave quite idiotically wrong answers, and I *really wanted* to 
> get that easy question solved so we could go on to the next thing. I 
> confess that I *also* was hungry for attention in any form that did 
> not involve someone hitting me. 

I can remember that, as well.  Ironically, my grades weren't what they
should have been, due more to boredom than inability.




> I've gotten over being the oldest, and whenever I reached a 
> milestone birthday that entitled me to have my allowance increased 
> or my bedtime made later, within days my brother (two years younger, 
> almost to the day) had the same allowance and same bedtime as me. 

<rant>
I can relate.  I remember being told I was "just about old enough for an
allowance".  Next birthday (my seventh), I started getting one, and so did
my brother (younger by two years and six weeks).  So is that telling me
that at almost seven, I was too young, but my brother was old enough before
he was five?
</rant>


I was raised as the oldest (older for the English majors), but I really
wasn't.  I weigh in from the unique "Percy position" of the family
(assuming there's a large gap between Charlie and Percy).  I am the older
of my mother's children, but when I was born, my father already had three
adult children by a previous marriage.  And guess what the two oldest are
named:  Bill and Charles!

Melanie

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From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Nov  3 22:37:44 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:37:44 EDT
Subject: Mi mi mi mi mi...ahem:
Message-ID: <id.03112000183744.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 5073

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOUUUU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOUUUUUUU
HAPPY BIRTH-DAY DEAR PENNNNNNYYYYYYYY
(everyone all together now with feeling:)
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TOOOOOOO
YOUUUUUUUUU!
And many moooooorrrrrrrre!



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Nov  3 23:55:39 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:55:39 -0800
Subject: ElixerOfLife.com?
In-Reply-To: <003501c045e4$28953120$72977ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001103154404.00b46b30@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5074

I've just been reading Ray Kurzweil's book _The Age of Spitiual Machines_
by Ray Kurzweil.  Among other things, he predicits that computer technology
will allow us to drink the Elixer of Life and become immortal by 2050.  I find
this evocative, but at the same time I can't help thinking of this prospect in
the context of what Dumbledore tells Harry... Is Kurzweil and other 
cyber-Flamels
longing for "precisely what is worst for them" and seeking to use computers to
evade "the next great adventure"?



                                                 -- Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Nov  4 00:44:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:44:53 -0500
Subject: anyone in minneapolis?
References: <1.5.4.32.20001103114325.0091be64@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A035C05.94A20FCB@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5075

Sylvanlane has photos from Marshall Fields' windows at
http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harry_potter_index.htm#news - but I would love to
see more -if anyone is in the area, please take some snapshots & put them on the
list!




From HarryPotterJrs at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 01:04:37 2000
From: HarryPotterJrs at aol.com (HarryPotterJrs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:04:37 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I have a problem.
Message-ID: <21.306b2ca.2734baa5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5076

I can't...I want to be your co-dependent friend!
=)
~shahara
<< Help me...please..... >>



From HarryPotterJrs at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 01:08:22 2000
From: HarryPotterJrs at aol.com (HarryPotterJrs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:08:22 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles
Message-ID: <a9.d3524f2.2734bb86@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5077

Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always spoke of 
non-witchy folks as Mundanes.  Interesting how close that is to Muggles, FWIW.
~shahara



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 02:45:21 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 20:45:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: anyone in minneapolis?
References: <1.5.4.32.20001103114325.0091be64@popmail.dircon.co.uk> <3A035C05.94A20FCB@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3A037841.9B077925@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5078

Yes, I'm from Minneapolis!  And I'm planning to see the show, although I expect it to
be an absolute madhouse.  My sister is a buyer for Dayton's, and she told me about
it; she also said they're rather worried about crowd control.

I'll try to get pictures and post them for you all.

Peg

heidi wrote:

> Sylvanlane has photos from Marshall Fields' windows at
> http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harry_potter_index.htm#news - but I would love to
> see more -if anyone is in the area, please take some snapshots & put them on the
> list!
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov  4 03:03:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:03:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles
References: <a9.d3524f2.2734bb86@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A037C68.A02D537F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5079

HarryPotterJrs at aol.com wrote:

> Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always spoke of
> non-witchy folks as Mundanes.

In my medieval recreation group, the Society for Creative Anachronism, we talk of
non-participants as mundanes (or used to; it's being discouraged by the
image-conscious). It was founded in 1966; I wonder if the usage bled over from
Wicca, or vice versa? Hmmm.

--Amanda




From HarryPotterJrs at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 03:16:42 2000
From: HarryPotterJrs at aol.com (HarryPotterJrs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:16:42 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: anyone in minneapolis?
Message-ID: <23.309b19e.2734d99a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5080

I'm in WI, in between Green Bay and Milwaukee.  My oldest daughter wants to 
go to Twin Cities U next year, so maybe we will take a visit very soon.  If 
anyone knows of any good vegie resturants/coffeehouses/used bookstores, etc 
and/or can give me directions to this store...please contact me offlist!!  
(at this email, or at Shahara9 at aol.com)



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov  4 03:30:01 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:30:01 -0000
Subject: Dursley Questions
Message-ID: <8tvvrp+i4ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5081

There are some questions I have regarding the Dursleys:

- What do they know about Voldemort?  Surely they would have asked 
questions when the Potters were killed and their house was blown to 
smithereens.  Do they understand who Voldemort was (is), and what his 
return might mean to Harry and his blood relations?

- What is the nature of the protection that living with blood 
relatives affords Harry?  Is it akin to having a Secret Keeper?  
Perhaps it is related to the protection that Harry received when his 
mother died to protect him.

- Does anyone in a position to know ever say explicitly that Lily was 
a muggle-born witch?  Could Petunia have been a squib in a wizard 
household instead?  Harry *assumes* that his grandparents were 
muggles, but do we know for sure?  

- When and how did Lily and Petunia's parents die? They must have 
been comparatively young (50s or 60s) when Harry was born.  Might 
they have been killed by Voldemort?  If so, could that have 
traumatized Petunia into rejecting "the wizarding world" completely?

Any thoughts?

-Jim Flanagan




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 03:36:02 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:36:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles
References: <a9.d3524f2.2734bb86@aol.com> <3A037C68.A02D537F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A038422.F14917D3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5082

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> HarryPotterJrs at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always spoke of
> > non-witchy folks as Mundanes.
>
> In my medieval recreation group, the Society for Creative Anachronism, we talk of
> non-participants as mundanes (or used to; it's being discouraged by the
> image-conscious). It was founded in 1966; I wonder if the usage bled over from
> Wicca, or vice versa? Hmmm.

Science fiction/fantasy fans use the term, too.  I hear it a lot at conventions.
It's kind of comic, really: a nicely dressed woman, there at the hotel for a
chiropractor's convention, will get on the elevator with a Klingon in full regalia.
She'll give him the once over, raise an eyebrow, and get off at her floor.  And the
Klingon will turn to the Romulan standing beside him and say witheringly: "Those
mundanes just don't understand."

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 03:39:04 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:39:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5083

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Hi:
>
> > Hi, my name is Voicelady, and I'm a Harryaholic.
>
> Hi, my name is Penny, and I'm also a Harryaholic.
>
> > I am obsessed.  It started with the books.  <snip> Harry Potter became
> > a daily topic of conversation for me.  I thought about him.  I
> > theorized about him.  I joined *clubs* about him!
>
> And, I began to read 50-100+ messages a day about him and his world.  I
> became obsessed with all the little details of his world.

I'm a Harryaholic, too, I'm afraid.

This turned out to be rather a more serious post than I intended when I
started it because, all kidding aside, this obsession might be edging close
to being a real problem for me.  Yeah, I'm obsessed; I read, I analyze, I
discuss.  Harry and his friends have given me a tremendous lot of pleasure
(as has the better fanfiction I've read). I will say that at least Harry
hasn't really sucked away much of my money.  True, I've bought the books
(just the U.S. editions) and the Jim Dale CDs, but I have avoided buying any
of the other editions.  And I have scrupulously avoided all other
merchandise of any kind, terrified of sliding down that slippery slope.

But what Harry has really sucked away for me is time, as well as a certain
creative energy that I need to devote to my own writing, and that's rather a
more serious issue for me, since I have so little of both to spare.  I have
a full time job and a young family to raise, and the time I've given over to
Harry I've robbed from my own sleep and my fiction writing time.  In fact,
I've entirely stopped writing my fiction for the time being, a fact which
bothers me a great deal, but not enough to figure out a way to break the
block.  I'm obsessed with JK Rowling's world rather than one of my own
creation.  (Well, it's not entirely her fault.  LAST year I was obsessed
with Jane Austen and spent all my free time at www.pemberley.com).

I was recently reading a newsletter for parents of gifted children (my
7-year old daughter has vastly outstripped her grade reading level) and one
thing jumped out at me: gifted children tend to get obsessed with certain
subjects.  Pick your topic: dinosaurs, ancient Egypt, fairytales, etc.
Parents of gifted children worry about this, but the newsletter advised, go
ahead, let them gorge on the obsession.  And I thought, that's what I'M
doing!  Suddenly it all made sense: I was a gifted child, too (didn't I say
I identified most with Hermione?) and that's what I'm doing right now in my
interest with Harry: gorging on my obsession.  (Harry isn't the first
obsession I've ever had, either, and I imagine he won't be the last)

I have to think I'm doing SOMETHING by immersing myself in Harry's world,
something that feeds that mysterious part of my back brain that creates
fiction.  I'm chewing over big themes: morality, heroism, betrayal, trust,
the nature of friendship, etc, esp. by working on my 7 deadly sins/heavenly
virtues essays.  I can only trust that all the analysis I'm putting into
that hopper (or as Tolkien called it, that story stewpot) in my unconscious
mind will brew and bubble and stew and ferment . . . and something good will
emerge out of it someday when I get back to creating my own fictional worlds
again.

Until then, I guess I'll just have to sit back and enjoy the ride

Cheers,
Peg




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 03:46:59 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:46:59 -0000
Subject: ElixerOfLife.com?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001103154404.00b46b30@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8u00rj+odae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5084

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
> I've just been reading Ray Kurzweil's book _The Age of Spitiual 
Machines_
> by Ray Kurzweil.  Among other things, he predicits that computer 
technology
> will allow us to drink the Elixer of Life and become immortal by 
2050.  I find
> this evocative, but at the same time I can't help thinking of this 
prospect in
> the context of what Dumbledore tells Harry... Is Kurzweil and other 
> cyber-Flamels
> longing for "precisely what is worst for them" and seeking to use 
computers to
> evade "the next great adventure"?
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave


Probably...remember when the real (our world) Flamel lived




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 03:48:20 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:48:20 -0000
Subject: I have a problem.
In-Reply-To: <21.306b2ca.2734baa5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8u00u4+hget@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5085

Okay, 

at any social gathering, do you first ask, "okay, where are the Harry 
Potter fanatics?"

do you do it at every business meeting too?

Susan




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 04:47:51 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:47:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles
References: <a9.d3524f2.2734bb86@aol.com> <3A037C68.A02D537F@texas.net> <3A038422.F14917D3@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <017501c0461a$6413ff20$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5086

Then there's Anthony's series where if it's not Florida, it's Mundania?

LOL


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles


> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>
> > HarryPotterJrs at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always
spoke of
> > > non-witchy folks as Mundanes.
> >
> > In my medieval recreation group, the Society for Creative Anachronism,
we talk of
> > non-participants as mundanes (or used to; it's being discouraged by the
> > image-conscious). It was founded in 1966; I wonder if the usage bled
over from
> > Wicca, or vice versa? Hmmm.
>
> Science fiction/fantasy fans use the term, too.  I hear it a lot at
conventions.
> It's kind of comic, really: a nicely dressed woman, there at the hotel for
a
> chiropractor's convention, will get on the elevator with a Klingon in full
regalia.
> She'll give him the once over, raise an eyebrow, and get off at her floor.
And the
> Klingon will turn to the Romulan standing beside him and say witheringly:
"Those
> mundanes just don't understand."
>
> Peg
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 04:00:57 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 04:00:57 -0000
Subject: The Death of Harry
In-Reply-To: <3A02D199.2E27E9B8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u01lp+bg1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5087

Although, I will concede that there are very strong
> arguments that Sirius could be one of the deaths.
> 

I've missed those arguments...could someone summarize or point
me to the messages?

Susan

I expect Dumbledore to be killed, but Harry will be alive.

What about Snape? or McGonagall?






From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 04:03:15 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 04:03:15 -0000
Subject: The Death of Harry
In-Reply-To: <8tunrb+lp7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u01q3+68nq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5088

> So my votes for a "Death Pool" would be 
> 1. Dumbledore in Book 6
> 2. Snape in Book 7
> 3. Harry in Book 7.
> 
> :-) Milz


I just had a revelation. Ron will end up as the Minister of Magic.
Ron is the total and typical adolescent which means we don't know
who he will be as an adult. 

Percy will betray his family and Dumbledore, repent and be killed.

Ron will become the ambitious one.

Susan




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov  4 04:07:55 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:07:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A038B9B.D2C5D4FF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5089

Peg Kerr wrote:

> I have to think I'm doing SOMETHING by immersing myself in Harry's world,
> something that feeds that mysterious part of my back brain that creates
> fiction.  I'm chewing over big themes: morality, heroism, betrayal, trust,
> the nature of friendship, etc, esp. by working on my 7 deadly sins/heavenly
> virtues essays.  I can only trust that all the analysis I'm putting into
> that hopper (or as Tolkien called it, that story stewpot) in my unconscious
> mind will brew and bubble and stew and ferment . . . and something good will
> emerge out of it someday when I get back to creating my own fictional worlds
> again.

I think you're right. In my experience, for the gifted, in any area, there is no
steady hum or pace; I've never met anyone who didn't do their particular area of
expertise in fits and pauses. And sometimes people just operate on different
internal schedules, too. I really, really wish I had been taught, way *before* I
was 28 and in college for the second time, that a legitimate part of the writing
process is cogitating, thinking about it. I'm evidently the type of person who
can't actually put words onto paper (screen?) until a couple of days before the
deadline, no matter how much preparation time I have. I spend a lot of time with
things mulling inside, consciously or sub-, and if I'd known that it was not
only legitimate but necessary, I would have spent lots less time sweating blood
and trying to fit myself into the "work a little on it each day" mold.

So don't worry. And definitely enjoy the ride.

--Amanda, who's a bit depressed that for most things, she *can* do the
slow-n-steady gig....




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov  4 04:10:44 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 04:10:44 -0000
Subject: I have a problem
In-Reply-To: <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8u0284+8j5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5090

> But what Harry has really sucked away for me is time, as well as a 
certain
> creative energy that I need to devote to my own writing, and that's 
rather a
> more serious issue for me, since I have so little of both to 
spare.  I have
> a full time job and a young family to raise, and the time I've 
given over to
> Harry I've robbed from my own sleep and my fiction writing time. 

Me, too

 > I was recently reading a newsletter for parents of gifted children 
(my
> 7-year old daughter has vastly outstripped her grade reading level) 
and one
> thing jumped out at me: gifted children tend to get obsessed with 
certain
> subjects.  Pick your topic: dinosaurs, ancient Egypt, fairytales, 
etc.
> Parents of gifted children worry about this, but the newsletter 
advised, go
> ahead, let them gorge on the obsession.  And I thought, that's what 
I'M
> doing!  Suddenly it all made sense: I was a gifted child, too 
(didn't I say
> I identified most with Hermione?) and that's what I'm doing right 
now in my
> interest with Harry: gorging on my obsession.  (Harry isn't the 
first
> obsession I've ever had, either, and I imagine he won't be the last)
> 

Well, i don't know how gifted I was/am, but I too have my 
obsessions....some have lasted for years, and some come and go.....

Trust in the process, Peg

Susan





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 04:23:18 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:23:18 -0600
Subject: It's moot now, anyway . . .
Message-ID: <3A038F36.9A22FA75@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5091

since Richard Harris has apparently been signed for Dumbledore, but I
really, really would have liked to have seen Benjamin Whitrow in the
part, who played Mr. Bennet in A&E's Pride and Prejudice.  Here is a
picture of him looking blue-eyed and twinkley:

http://www.homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/mr-benn.jpg

and I would have loaded it to the Files for member casting suggestions,
but the egroups file loading processor is snubbing me again.  It just
won't load ANYTHING for me.  Could someone else do it for me?  Sorry.

Peg




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Sat Nov  4 04:39:12 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:39:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c04619$36e86320$0243ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5092

> > > Hi, my name is Voicelady, and I'm a Harryaholic.
> >
> > Hi, my name is Penny, and I'm also a Harryaholic.
> >
> > > I am obsessed.  It started with the books.  <snip> Harry Potter became
> > > a daily topic of conversation for me.  I thought about him.  I
> > > theorized about him.  I joined *clubs* about him!
> >
> > And, I began to read 50-100+ messages a day about him and his world.  I
> > became obsessed with all the little details of his world.
>
> I'm a Harryaholic, too, I'm afraid.
>
> This turned out to be rather a more serious post than I intended when I
> started it because, all kidding aside, this obsession might be edging
close
> to being a real problem for me.  Yeah, I'm obsessed; I read, I analyze, I
> discuss.  Harry and his friends have given me a tremendous lot of pleasure
> (as has the better fanfiction I've read).

Well I may as well stand up and admit it as well...I'm carole and I am a
Harryaholic,


> But what Harry has really sucked away for me is time, as well as a certain
> creative energy that I need to devote to my own writing, and that's rather
a
> more serious issue for me, since I have so little of both to spare.  I
have
> a full time job and a young family to raise, and the time I've given over
to
> Harry I've robbed from my own sleep and my fiction writing time.  In fact,
> I've entirely stopped writing my fiction for the time being, a fact which
> bothers me a great deal, but not enough to figure out a way to break the
> block.  I'm obsessed with JK Rowling's world rather than one of my own
> creation.  (Well, it's not entirely her fault.  LAST year I was obsessed
> with Jane Austen and spent all my free time at www.pemberley.com).

I have a lot of the same thoughts as Peg, in terms of it sucking time away
from my job, and my family.  Randy gives me a bit of a hard time about this
(he's a recovering Harryaholic). But I guess instead of Harry sucking
creative energy from original writing (of which I have never even tried) it
has given me a creative voice that I don't think I ever would have tried on
my own.  Writing fanfic in JKR's universe (and Lori's for that matter)
provided the constraints for me to begin to stick my little toe into the
world of creative writing.  It wasn't so scary to fill in the holes between
JKR and Lori's stories, as it would be to start from scratch.

I've tried a lot of hobbies.  Most I find rather useless (no offense to the
craftspeople of the world..I'm just so lousy at them they are useless to me
as a form of creative expression).  I was very involved in stain glass work
until the kids came along (not a very kid friendly hobby...you know sharp
glass, hot lead...lead fumes...hmmmmmm).  And there are so many things you
can't do while supervising little kiddos.  When Penny and I started to kick
around the idea for ASA I finally found an outlet I can do while watching
the kids.  Just drag my notebook with me and suddenly a 2 hour trip to the
park is something I look forward to.  It gives my brain something to chew on
while I watch them play.

I have never had as much fun writing as I am now.  I have always hated to
write.  I went to a science and engineering school so I wouldn't have to
write. I have however done a tremendous anount of technical writing over the
years (no one told me scientists spend 70% of their time writing reports)
Anyway, this HP addiction of mine has opened a whole new universe for me in
terms of a skill I never thought I'd enjoy...and now its become an
obsession...just ask Penny how often I bug her about various plot lines and
scenes...Its ridiculous, but I am having such fun doing it I refuse to even
consider becoming a recovering Harryaholic.

>
> I have to think I'm doing SOMETHING by immersing myself in Harry's world,
> something that feeds that mysterious part of my back brain that creates
> fiction.  I'm chewing over big themes: morality, heroism, betrayal, trust,
> the nature of friendship, etc, esp. by working on my 7 deadly
sins/heavenly
> virtues essays.  I can only trust that all the analysis I'm putting into
> that hopper (or as Tolkien called it, that story stewpot) in my
unconscious
> mind will brew and bubble and stew and ferment . . . and something good
will
> emerge out of it someday when I get back to creating my own fictional
worlds
> again.
>
> Until then, I guess I'll just have to sit back and enjoy the ride

I can only say that if its lit the kind of inspirational fire in my brain
that has led me to try creative writing I can only imagine what these books
are feeding into an already creative brain like yours, Peg.  I will be
REALLY interested in seeing what form your next novel takes after all this
rumination.

Keep it brewing.

carole






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov  4 08:07:38 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:07:38 -0000
Subject: It's moot now, anyway . . .
In-Reply-To: <3A038F36.9A22FA75@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8u0g4a+4hkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5093

done.

-JF

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> ...I would have loaded it to the Files for member casting 
> suggestions, but the egroups file loading processor is snubbing me 
> again.  It just won't load ANYTHING for me.  Could someone else do 
> it for me?  Sorry.
> 
> Peg




From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Sat Nov  4 08:26:25 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:26:25 -0000
Subject: Dursley Questions
In-Reply-To: <8tvvrp+i4ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u0h7h+f48k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5094

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> There are some questions I have regarding the Dursleys:
> 
> - What do they know about Voldemort?  Surely they would have asked 
> questions when the Potters were killed and their house was blown to 
> smithereens.  Do they understand who Voldemort was (is), and what 
his 
> return might mean to Harry and his blood relations?

I believe they know as much as Dumbledore had chosen to tell them via 
the letter he left them when Harry was deposited at their doorstep. I 
doubt they would even want to question or discuss whatever was 
written at all on the basis that they have been dying to stamp out 
all the wizarding nonsense out of Harry. What I continue to be 
surprised about is that they continue to keep Harry, when they seem 
only to keen to leave him at train station in PS/SS. Maybe that was 
to scare him and they would have returned for him when he couldn't 
find Platform 9 3/4. Perhaps having Harry around is something which 
puts them in a good light. On the surface, they would appear to the 
unknowing public as good upright concerned relatives.

> 
> - What is the nature of the protection that living with blood 
> relatives affords Harry?  Is it akin to having a Secret Keeper?  
> Perhaps it is related to the protection that Harry received when 
his 
> mother died to protect him.


I wondered this myself as Voldemort said in GoF that Dumbledore had 
used ancient magic to protect Harry while he's with his relatives and 
or Privet Drive. It probably only keeps Voldemort and DEs away as it 
certainly didn't stop Dobby. I doubt it's a secret keeper type of 
spell otherwise the elf wouldn't even be able to locate him and 
Sirius in dog-form spotted him as well in the vicinity. Also, even 
though the Weasleys want him to stay for the summer after the fourth 
year, Dumbledore had insisted that Harry had to stay with the 
Dursleys first. I'm really curious about this point too.


> 
> - Does anyone in a position to know ever say explicitly that Lily 
was 
> a muggle-born witch?  Could Petunia have been a squib in a wizard 
> household instead?  Harry *assumes* that his grandparents were 
> muggles, but do we know for sure?  

Petunia had mentioned something to the effect that their parents were 
so proud to have a witch in the family. This would appear to imply 
that they were muggles. On the other hand, in the mirror of Erised, 
Harry came across many more people with "green eyes" which would 
imply Lily's family. I doubt that Muggles would appear in that 
Mirror ? 

> 
> - When and how did Lily and Petunia's parents die? They must have 
> been comparatively young (50s or 60s) when Harry was born.  Might 
> they have been killed by Voldemort?  If so, could that have 
> traumatized Petunia into rejecting "the wizarding world" completely?
> 
I don't have any comments as to how their parents died but I think 
Petunia must have no wizarding ability because she spoke so 
vehemently about her in PS/SS. If indeed she did have powers, some of 
that would have materialised when she was traumatised by Hagrid's 
appearance in that hut and also when the Weasley's came through the 
fire place in Privet Drive. It seems that fear tends to bring out 
one's wizarding abilities like Harry flying to the top of the roof, 
hair growing back et al and Neville bouncing away safely when his 
relative dropped him.Based on this, she has to be a Muggle or if 
you're right, maybe a Squib.

Gen


> Any thoughts?
> 
> -Jim Flanagan




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Nov  4 11:04:05 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:04:05 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 235
References: <20001103215921.16747.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c0464e$f4925cc0$c88e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5095


----- Original Message -----
From: Anake <neptune_1984 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 235


> >>Actually, I didn't find it disturbing at all.  <g>  There's no mention
> of Harry.  It just says that she *knows* who will die in each of the
> remaining books.  That's no big surprise as we've all known she has a
> pretty good roadmap for the plots.  She's going to kill people we love.<<
>
> I hope she doesn't kill off Neville, but that's a guess of mine of who
will die by
> the 7th book. Neville is one of my favorite characters.

I have this deep, horrible feeling it'll be Snape.  He's my favourite
character, I think he's great, but all the same, I have this horrible
feeling he's not going to make the end of Book 7.  Scary but true.

Jinx




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Nov  4 13:00:25 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 4 Nov 2000 05:00:25 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem.
Message-ID: <20001104130025.22336.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5096

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001104/abc7cb71/attachment.ksh>

From chrisgoetz at home.com  Sat Nov  4 15:15:17 2000
From: chrisgoetz at home.com (chrisgoetz at home.com)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:15:17 -0000
Subject: Danish edition of Harry Potter
Message-ID: <8u1965+8c8b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5097

Does anyone on this list have a source for the Danish edition of 
Harry Potter?  I'm collecting international editions and have found 
it relatively easy to order from a dozen or more different countries, 
but am having a devil of a time with Denmark.  Their on-line 
bookstores seem to have some strange rule for international orders 
that no one else has, even my friend who speaks Danish couldn't 
figure it out.

So: have any of you had success with getting the Danish editions?  
They have some of the best jacket art so I'm keen to add these to my 
collection.  Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Chris Goetz




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 15:43:47 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:43:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's moot now, anyway . . .
References: <8u0g4a+4hkc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A042EB3.BFDC224C@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5098

Thanks, Jim!  (Why oh why doesn't it work for me, even when I follow the
instructions?)

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> done.
>
> -JF
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
>
> > ...I would have loaded it to the Files for member casting
> > suggestions, but the egroups file loading processor is snubbing me
> > again.  It just won't load ANYTHING for me.  Could someone else do
> > it for me?  Sorry.
> >
> > Peg
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 16:18:47 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:18:47 -0000
Subject: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 5099

Thank you Peg. I now have an excellent explanation for my obsession and yes
I was  a gifted child too. I was labelling it a delaying tactic but your
explanation is far more flattering

I am now a not so gifted adult who is reading HP4GU instead of essay writing
and lesson plans. Do you think my tutor will accept it as a reason for my
missing essay? Or the three people to whom I owe articles promised at the
beginning of the year?

Drifting off the point a bit, but from general information on this list it
appears the majority (if not all) of the  Harry fans on this list are a)
well educated (university or its equivalent or preparing for the same), b)
Very well read and c) Those who have left education are or were what UK
sociological tables would call ABC1 professionals (Please don't ask me to
elaborate because as a non sociologist who had to do a bit as part of her
course I can't). Is there any connection I wonder beyond the obvious of
being able to afford a computer and net connection.

Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about only
having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. Is it
usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? In the UK
unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation but usually
you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first choice or you
decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and want to
change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes you are
encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a compulsory
computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark count
towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very curious as
discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be partially
a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you chose arts
or sciences at 16.

Heather, waiting for the torrent of rebuttals to land in her inbox.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 18:43:44 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:43:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heather
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net> <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default>
Message-ID: <008301c0468f$2ada6f80$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5100

Not certain about the others, but I think I absorbed the jist of your post.

In a traditional local 4-year college, we have to have what I was told is
called a "well-rounded" education.  This means we are forced to take classes
like "The History of China" when we're Engineering majors (a friend's
courseload currently), or the "Physics of Light" when we're an education
major.  These "extra" courses are supposed to give us a firm base for doing
our job later.

I for one don't understand the reasoning behind this (where on earth in the
computer field are you going to use the history of china unless you go
there?) but I agreed to it when I was attending Akron U.  At SSC, the
two-year, we didn't have to take as many, and the "other" classes were more
geared towards our majors.  English, Speech, Math...  Things that make sense
in computer programming.  The rest were our main "food", like COBOL 1 and 2,
RPG 1 and 2, etc....

I plan to go upgrade my two year to a four year Computer Science degree, and
I know that I will be forced into those extra classes.  Wouldn't mind if I
could do perhaps "Swimming" for gym?  And a dance-like class?  (Two classes
are mandatory at UofA--but you get to decide the class, alot of folks choose
Racquetball, hence my not; I'd never get in, and with these old bones...!)
They also require things like one language, of your choice. Should be
interesting....

To check out what the colleges are doing I think the Akron U website is
http://www.uakron.edu/

I hope this helps?  Not certain if you're just doing a comparison for class
or personal reasons....

:)
Dee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Edmonds" <Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:18 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP +
OT question about American College education.


> Thank you Peg. I now have an excellent explanation for my obsession and
yes
> I was  a gifted child too. I was labelling it a delaying tactic but your
> explanation is far more flattering
>
> I am now a not so gifted adult who is reading HP4GU instead of essay
writing
> and lesson plans. Do you think my tutor will accept it as a reason for my
> missing essay? Or the three people to whom I owe articles promised at the
> beginning of the year?
>
> Drifting off the point a bit, but from general information on this list it
> appears the majority (if not all) of the  Harry fans on this list are a)
> well educated (university or its equivalent or preparing for the same), b)
> Very well read and c) Those who have left education are or were what UK
> sociological tables would call ABC1 professionals (Please don't ask me to
> elaborate because as a non sociologist who had to do a bit as part of her
> course I can't). Is there any connection I wonder beyond the obvious of
> being able to afford a computer and net connection.
>
> Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about only
> having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. Is it
> usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? In the UK
> unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation but
usually
> you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first choice or
you
> decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and want to
> change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes you are
> encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a
compulsory
> computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark count
> towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very curious
as
> discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be
partially
> a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you chose
arts
> or sciences at 16.
>
> Heather, waiting for the torrent of rebuttals to land in her inbox.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
> .
>  group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
> .


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Sat Nov  4 18:39:57 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:39:57 -0500
Subject: OT question about American College education.
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net> <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default>
Message-ID: <001301c0468e$a8828400$9243ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5101

> Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about only
> having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. Is it
> usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? In the UK
> unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation but
usually
> you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first choice or
you
> decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and want to
> change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes you are
> encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a
compulsory
> computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark count
> towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very curious
as
> discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be
partially
> a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you chose
arts
> or sciences at 16.
>
> Heather, waiting for the torrent of rebuttals to land in her inbox.

As Dee explained usually the first 2 years of college are kind of a survey
of the realm of education.  Most schools require lots of liberal arts
courses(english, history, philosophy, music, art, etc.), a little science
and a little math. You get very few courses in your major those two years.
The final 2 years of a Bachelors degree are made up mostly of your major
courses and related courses.

I went to an engineering college so I  was not required to take a lot of
liberal arts type courses (except for 1 set of music and 2 writing ...one
basic and one technical) However I still really didn't get into courses in
my major until the last 2 years.  My first 2 years were packed with math and
physics and chemistry and biology.

I think I like your system better, but chosing your track at 16 seems kind
of scary!

carole






From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov  4 18:48:23 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 12:48:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP +  OT question about American College education.
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net> <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default>
Message-ID: <3A0459F7.DDB8E26C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5102

Okay, I'm typing with a rugrat at my feet, occasionally pushing buttons, but
here's my take on the eduational thing. The U.S. in the past differentiated
between a trade school, where you learned only what you needed to practice said
trade, and the colleges and universities, where you went to continue/complete
your education. Originally, completion of high school was supposed to give you
the basic education you needed for life and the pursuit of happiness. You could
then get a job, go to a trade school, or "continue your education" at a college
or university. The latter was a continuance of high school, with emphasis on
several different areas to provide a so-called rounded education. Most colleges
and universities in the U.S. still have a "core curriculum," which constitutes
that basic rounded education--English, math, some language, usually some
elective choices for things like philosophy, some science, etc. There's choice
built in, but you must take some courses in several areas. One's major selection
then adds, on top of the core, the specialized courses you must take for a
degree in that major.

A lot of universities, however, are finding that it is increasingly difficult
for students to complete all the requirements in four years. My then-boyfriend
went to Texas A&M and majored in Nuclear Engineering, and I think he was in his
third year before he could even consider an elective. Part of the problem is
with the "major" part of the degree--the information the majors are imparting
keeps getting more specialized, so it takes more time to teach it. Another part
is with the "core" part of the degree--more and more students arrive at college
and have to take loads of remedial courses before they can even take the
college-level ones.

I happen to believe in the well-rounded education, so I don't really have a
problem with the system as it stands. I'm the type who just likes to learn
things, but I can see the point of the people who just want to learn their
field. Different universities are trying different things to fit the desired
courses into a four-year plan, but the wheels of change creak slowly in a
conservative field like education. But this was meant to be a "how we got to
where we are right now" discussion.

Anyway, that's my perception. I got to redo the UTSA undergraduate and graduate
catalogs some years ago, and got into some discussions with various educators
and administrators on the reasons behind why this and that was done. I hope this
is coherent, I keep having to stop and extricate the baby from whatever. My
husband's taken the older two away to the beach, and I only have one kid! What
luxury!

--Amanda




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 18:52:28 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:52:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Muggles in Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <20001104185228.17361.qmail@web4803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5103


--- Gen  <gchua at spicerspaperasia.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, in the mirror of Erised, 
> Harry came across many more people with "green eyes" which would 
> imply Lily's family. I doubt that Muggles would appear in that 
> Mirror ? 


I don't see why they wouldn't, if they are what the looker desires.  Harry
desires family, Muggles and all.

Melanie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From rhiannon8404 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 19:47:08 2000
From: rhiannon8404 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:47:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles in Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <20001104194708.26069.qmail@web1506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5104


> > On the other hand, in the mirror of Erised, 
> > Harry came across many more people with "green
> eyes" which would 
> > imply Lily's family. I doubt that Muggles would
> appear in that 
> > Mirror ? 
> 
> 
> I don't see why they wouldn't, if they are what the
> looker desires.  Harry
> desires family, Muggles and all.
> 
> Melanie
> 

Good point, Melanie. I was thinking the same thing.

=====
Elizabeth (Rhiannon8404)

******************************
She is like a cat in the dark
And then she is the darkness.
******************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Nov  4 19:41:08 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:41:08 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggles in Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <20001104185228.17361.qmail@web4803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001104113930.02061100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5105

At 10:52 AM 11/4/00 -0800, Melanie Moore wrote:
>I don't see why they wouldn't, if they are what the looker desires.  Harry
>desires family, Muggles and all.

Yes --
Just because the Dursleys are sh--heads doesn't mean *all* Harry's
Muggle ancestors are...



                                                 -- Dave




From john at walton.to  Sat Nov  4 19:41:24 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 19:41:24 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
In-Reply-To: <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default>
Message-ID: <B62A16E4.7A29%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5106

> Drifting off the point a bit, but from general information on this list it
> appears the majority (if not all) of the  Harry fans on this list are a)
> well educated (university or its equivalent or preparing for the same), b)
> Very well read and c) Those who have left education are or were what UK
> sociological tables would call ABC1 professionals (Please don't ask me to
> elaborate because as a non sociologist who had to do a bit as part of her
> course I can't). Is there any connection I wonder beyond the obvious of
> being able to afford a computer and net connection.

As a student of International Relations, I can elaborate on ABC1 for those
who're in the dark. It refers to a way to segment the population of a
country by its work. I've not got my textbook on me, but here's a
paraphrase:

A: Executive/Director
B: Middle Management/Secretarial
C1: Floor supervisor
C2: Skilled laborer
D: Unskilled laborer
E: Unemployed

C1 and C2 comprise 60% of the UK electorate. ABC1 is what is known in the UK
as "Middle Class" and in the USA as "White Collar".

> Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about only
> having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. Is it
> usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? In the UK
> unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation but usually
> you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first choice or you
> decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and want to
> change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes you are
> encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a compulsory
> computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark count
> towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very curious as
> discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be partially
> a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you chose arts
> or sciences at 16.

I'm currently studying International Relations as my intended degree at the
University of St Andrews. I'm in year 2 of 4 and already I've taken modules
in International Relations, Russian, Russian Literature, Arabic and
Linguistics. 

>From what I remember when I looked at universities two years ago (gawd, two
years ago? I feel so OLD!), Social Sciences and Sciences tend to be modular
courses at all but the most hallowed institutions (read: Oxford and
Cambridge), and even some of those are modular. St Andrews runs a completely
modular system, but in a Faculties system -- you can't usually take a
Science module from the Arts Faculty, but you can take most anything with a
language or with IT Studies. Languages are particularly encouraged.

Hope this helps!

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 20:42:40 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:42:40 +0000
Subject: Happy Birthday Penny...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001104204240.0090b79c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5107

Just dropping in from new Venice (aka the United Kingdom) to wish Penny a
very happy BIRTHDAY!

Penny, you've done a great job of keeping a bunch of assorted fanatics,
obsessives, addicts, maniacs, mundanes, goats and erstwhile gifted children
under control, not to mention co-authoring some great fanfic.  Have a great
day and a magical life!

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 20:54:28 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:54:28 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday Penny...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001104204240.0090b79c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8u1t24+8d8j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5108

I just HAD to echo Neil with this!  Penny has done a wonderful job at 
this site and I am proud to say I "know" her!
(As well as all of you.)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

Scott


> Just dropping in from new Venice (aka the United Kingdom) to wish 
Penny a
> very happy BIRTHDAY!
> 
> Penny, you've done a great job of keeping a bunch of assorted 
fanatics,
> obsessives, addicts, maniacs, mundanes, goats and erstwhile gifted 
children
> under control, not to mention co-authoring some great fanfic.  Have 
a great
> day and a magical life!
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> 




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Nov  4 21:07:32 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 4 Nov 2000 13:07:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK merchandise?
Message-ID: <20001104210732.23854.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5109

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001104/6866b478/attachment.ksh>

From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 20:56:36 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:56:36 +0000
Subject: REal life muggles
Message-ID: <3A047804.211AE450@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5110

On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:36:02 -0600  Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> HarryPotterJrs at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always
spoke of
> > non-witchy folks as Mundanes.
>
> In my medieval recreation group, the Society for Creative Anachronism,
we talk of
> non-participants as mundanes (or used to; it's being discouraged by
the
> image-conscious). It was founded in 1966; I wonder if the usage bled
over from
> Wicca, or vice versa? Hmmm.

>Science fiction/fantasy fans use the term, too.  I hear it a lot at
conventions.
>It's kind of comic, really: a nicely dressed woman, there at the hotel
for a
>chiropractor's convention, will get on the elevator with a Klingon in
full regalia.
>She'll give him the once over, raise an eyebrow, and get off at her
floor.  And the
>Klingon will turn to the Romulan standing beside him and say
witheringly: "Those
>mundanes just don't understand."

I think crossover of the term is also due to the overlap of personnel
between these particular 'worlds'. I have hardly ever met a
pagan/magical type who was not also into SF/F and I understand that the
SCA also attracted its share of magical folk.

In a sense the term 'mundanes' is actually quite apt for folks who are
primarily
focused upon the mundane plane/world.


Vivienne











From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 21:18:35 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:18:35 -0000
Subject: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
In-Reply-To: <B62A16E4.7A29%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8u1ufb+61a3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5111

I'm starting to look at colleges and this is one questioning point 
for me.  I have been looking at  colleges in the UK and so I was 
rather confused by the US system.  (why waste time learning things 
that don't really apply?) Then again what do I know?  I am supposed 
to go to a workshop on this in a weeks at a local university so maybe 
I can clear up some of my own questions.

Now I know that this was terribly OT, (forgive me, we've had a yard 
sale today and I've been up since very early...) but I will try to 
pull it back together.  

JKR has said (I believe)that there is no wizarding university but I 
still don't know if I buy it. (Just like I don't buy the fact that 
Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Great Britain). Anyway if 
there isn't then I guess most wizards just go to trade schools, and 
apprenticeship with other shoppe owners and such.

The last part of this message deals with the socio economic data and 
how it relates to education.  As far as we know (and I'm not 
searching the books or anything so it may not be true) but I don't 
really remember any "white collar wizards" that didn't work for the 
MoM.  How would one become qualified for a ministry job if not higher 
Education, and for that matter, how well does the ministry pay (ie 
Arthur...) -and maybe the owner of "The Three Broomsticks" makes just 
as much money?

Scott 



> > Drifting off the point a bit, but from general information on 
this list it
> > appears the majority (if not all) of the  Harry fans on this list 
are a)
> > well educated (university or its equivalent or preparing for the 
same), b)
> > Very well read and c) Those who have left education are or were 
what UK
> > sociological tables would call ABC1 professionals (Please don't 
ask me to
> > elaborate because as a non sociologist who had to do a bit as 
part of her
> > course I can't). Is there any connection I wonder beyond the 
obvious of
> > being able to afford a computer and net connection.
> 
> As a student of International Relations, I can elaborate on ABC1 
for those
> who're in the dark. It refers to a way to segment the population of 
a
> country by its work. I've not got my textbook on me, but here's a
> paraphrase:
> 
> A: Executive/Director
> B: Middle Management/Secretarial
> C1: Floor supervisor
> C2: Skilled laborer
> D: Unskilled laborer
> E: Unemployed
> 
> C1 and C2 comprise 60% of the UK electorate. ABC1 is what is known 
in the UK
> as "Middle Class" and in the USA as "White Collar".
> 
> > Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about 
only
> > having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. 
Is it
> > usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? 
In the UK
> > unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation 
but usually
> > you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first 
choice or you
> > decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and 
want to
> > change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes 
you are
> > encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a 
compulsory
> > computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark 
count
> > towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very 
curious as
> > discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be 
partially
> > a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you 
chose arts
> > or sciences at 16.
> 
> I'm currently studying International Relations as my intended 
degree at the
> University of St Andrews. I'm in year 2 of 4 and already I've taken 
modules
> in International Relations, Russian, Russian Literature, Arabic and
> Linguistics. 
> 
> From what I remember when I looked at universities two years ago 
(gawd, two
> years ago? I feel so OLD!), Social Sciences and Sciences tend to be 
modular
> courses at all but the most hallowed institutions (read: Oxford and
> Cambridge), and even some of those are modular. St Andrews runs a 
completely
> modular system, but in a Faculties system -- you can't usually take 
a
> Science module from the Arts Faculty, but you can take most 
anything with a
> language or with IT Studies. Languages are particularly encouraged.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> --John
> 
> =====================================================
> John Walton     john at w...    ICQ: 96203920
> 
> "I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
> --Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
> =====================================================




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 21:18:33 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:18:33 -0000
Subject: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
In-Reply-To: <B62A16E4.7A29%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8u1uf9+9ool@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5112

I'm starting to look at colleges and this is one questioning point 
for me.  I have been looking at  colleges in the UK and so I was 
rather confused by the US system.  (why waste time learning things 
that don't really apply?) Then again what do I know?  I am supposed 
to go to a workshop on this in a weeks at a local university so maybe 
I can clear up some of my own questions.

Now I know that this was terribly OT, (forgive me, we've had a yard 
sale today and I've been up since very early...) but I will try to 
pull it back together.  

JKR has said (I believe)that there is no wizarding university but I 
still don't know if I buy it. (Just like I don't buy the fact that 
Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Great Britain). Anyway if 
there isn't then I guess most wizards just go to trade schools, and 
apprenticeship with other shoppe owners and such.

The last part of this message deals with the socio economic data and 
how it relates to education.  As far as we know (and I'm not 
searching the books or anything so it may not be true) but I don't 
really remember any "white collar wizards" that didn't work for the 
MoM.  How would one become qualified for a ministry job if not higher 
Education, and for that matter, how well does the ministry pay (ie 
Arthur...) -and maybe the owner of "The Three Broomsticks" makes just 
as much money.

Scott 



> > Drifting off the point a bit, but from general information on 
this list it
> > appears the majority (if not all) of the  Harry fans on this list 
are a)
> > well educated (university or its equivalent or preparing for the 
same), b)
> > Very well read and c) Those who have left education are or were 
what UK
> > sociological tables would call ABC1 professionals (Please don't 
ask me to
> > elaborate because as a non sociologist who had to do a bit as 
part of her
> > course I can't). Is there any connection I wonder beyond the 
obvious of
> > being able to afford a computer and net connection.
> 
> As a student of International Relations, I can elaborate on ABC1 
for those
> who're in the dark. It refers to a way to segment the population of 
a
> country by its work. I've not got my textbook on me, but here's a
> paraphrase:
> 
> A: Executive/Director
> B: Middle Management/Secretarial
> C1: Floor supervisor
> C2: Skilled laborer
> D: Unskilled laborer
> E: Unemployed
> 
> C1 and C2 comprise 60% of the UK electorate. ABC1 is what is known 
in the UK
> as "Middle Class" and in the USA as "White Collar".
> 
> > Final OT point someone I think it was Carole said something about 
only
> > having to take one humanities course on her Science based degree. 
Is it
> > usual to have to take courses from another discipline in the US? 
In the UK
> > unless you are doing a modular degree (This is a generalisation 
but usually
> > you only do those if you didn't get the grades for your first 
choice or you
> > decide at the end of your first year you hate your subject and 
want to
> > change.) you stick purely to courses on your subject. Sometimes 
you are
> > encouraged to do a European language course alongside and I had a 
compulsory
> > computer course but it was not part of the degree nor did my mark 
count
> > towards my final mark. Sorry if this sounds garbled I'm just very 
curious as
> > discipline boundaries are rarely crossed in the UK. This could be 
partially
> > a result of the restrictive nature of A-levels. In most cases you 
chose arts
> > or sciences at 16.
> 
> I'm currently studying International Relations as my intended 
degree at the
> University of St Andrews. I'm in year 2 of 4 and already I've taken 
modules
> in International Relations, Russian, Russian Literature, Arabic and
> Linguistics. 
> 
> From what I remember when I looked at universities two years ago 
(gawd, two
> years ago? I feel so OLD!), Social Sciences and Sciences tend to be 
modular
> courses at all but the most hallowed institutions (read: Oxford and
> Cambridge), and even some of those are modular. St Andrews runs a 
completely
> modular system, but in a Faculties system -- you can't usually take 
a
> Science module from the Arts Faculty, but you can take most 
anything with a
> language or with IT Studies. Languages are particularly encouraged.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> --John
> 
> =====================================================
> John Walton     john at w...    ICQ: 96203920
> 
> "I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
> --Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
> =====================================================




From q0113 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  4 21:20:11 2000
From: q0113 at yahoo.com (Quinn Cassidy)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:20:11 -0000
Subject: Research Help
Message-ID: <8u1uib+jjh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5113

Hey all, my name is Quinn, and I'm in the extreme form of lurkerdom 
currently. I'm a college student, and therefore have a negative 
amount of free time, so I haven't really been around here much. Hence 
the reason why y'all prolly don't know me. ;)

I'm actually writing a term paper on HP, believe it or not, and was 
rudely awakened to the fact that there really aren't any academic 
publications on the book, at least none that would be of any use to 
me. So, I'm searching out support in other arenas. My topic is on the 
parallels between the two main generations, the Marauders and the 
Triumverate. I simply don't have the time--and I don't want to bias 
responses too badly--to hash out my full theory here, but I will say 
that I think that the paralleled couples are Harry-James, Hermione-
Sirius, Ron-Pettigrew, and Neville-Lupin. 

What I'm requesting is for your theories. Obviously, I have extensive 
ones of my own, but just as obviously I need secondary support for my 
paper. And, of course, there have to be points that I've missed in my 
research so far. Obviously, if I use any ideas, quotes, whatever 
belonging to one of you I will quote you in my paper, and any email 
that has sparked a thought process on my part will be included in my 
works cited/bibliography. 

There is one problem, however. As I said earlier, I simply don't have 
the time to sift through hundreds of emails looking for flicks of 
gold. I've already spent far too much time going through book reviews 
and past emails on other list, and consequently I'm dangerously close 
to my rough draft deadline. If you could carbon-copy all emails on 
this subject to qkc at hotmail.com, I would be able to get the 
information *much* easier (honestly, that simple action would save me 
about two or three hours that I simply don't have). Please remember 
to also include your full name in the email, so that I can correctly 
cite you. 

Okay, I feel horrible doing this since I'm not a regular member, but 
I've heard great things about the minds on this list, and hey--really 
all I'm doing is kicking off a new discussion on the list, just 
asking a few favours in addition. If you decide to do this, I'd 
prefer the emails to go out within the next few days, but to be 
honest I only have a rough draft due soon, any information will be 
helpful at any time. 

Thank you so much, and happy theorizing!!

Quinn Cassidy




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Nov  4 21:56:18 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:56:18 -0000
Subject: college / university subjects
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGELCCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5114

John wrote: "From what I remember when I looked at universities two years
ago (gawd, two years ago? I feel so OLD!), Social Sciences and Sciences tend
to be modular courses at all but the most hallowed institutions (read:
Oxford and Cambridge), and even some of those are modular."

I think that you can only do subjects with assessment by dissertation and
final exams in this part of the country. Some subjects have finals in two
parts, hint: I am one of these, which count for varying amounts of the final
grade (mine is 70% on part I and 30% on part II).

Do not worry John - it feels even worse when you get to the forth year,
especially when many of your friends leave and get jobs after three years.
The closest I could have come to something non-mathematical is if I had
taken the three-year equivalent of my course. If so I would have had to do
at least one 'other' paper (these consist of Mathematical Finance, History
of Mathematics, Philosophy of Mathematics, Astronomy, Mathematics in
Education and some others).


Carole wrote: "I think I like your system better, but chosing your track at
16 seems kind of scary!"

At the time I found little problem choosing, mathematics, chemistry and
physics (I bet that list was a shock to many!), but looking back I now wish
I had done some essay-based subject for A-Level. I think that being able to
write a few thousand coherent words on some subject is important and I doubt
I would have the clue where to start.

In the UK a new system of AS and A-Levels has (or is soon) to be introduced.
In this six subjects are studied to AS-Level (basically half an A-Level) and
then three are continued on to be full A-Levels. This is an effort to make
students study a much broader range of subjects up until 18. I am unsure how
someone now does the equivalent of 4 A-Levels under the old system - it
seems to be a recipe for leaving students with no free time and knowing even
less of the subjects they wish to study at university.


Dee wrote: "I for one don't understand the reasoning behind this (where on
earth in the computer field are you going to use the history of china unless
you go there?) but I agreed to it when I was attending Akron U."

Where in the real world would you use Analytic Topology, Spectral Analysis
with Functional Calculus and Function Spaces for Applications (there are
three subjects there and the third is my admission that applied mathematics
might exist)? Study mathematics and have no idea what jobs you might be able
to do when you finish!

Simon




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov  4 22:42:59 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 16:42:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] O-T thoughts on education
References: <8u1ufb+61a3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0490F2.B041B057@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5115

Scott wrote:

> I'm starting to look at colleges and this is one questioning point
> for me.  I have been looking at  colleges in the UK and so I was
> rather confused by the US system.  (why waste time learning things
> that don't really apply?)

Actually (and I do apologize beforehand, this is *exactly* the sort of thing
that sounded meaningless and stupid to me when I was younger), as you get
older you realize you never learn *anything* that doesn't apply. It quite
likely doesn't apply the way you thought it might, or when, but eventually
the little factoids and observations come into play, and the more you have,
in the broadest, most separated fields, the better things seem to come
together. I rediscover this, in fact, more and more every year.

That, I think, is what makes an education rather than a trade. Sort of the
difference between the training of a dog for obedience versus the training
of a dog to be a guide for the blind. One method teaches the dog what to do.
The other teaches the dog how to think, to react intelligently and make
decisions where necessary. Both are valid and useful in their respective
arenas, but they *are* different.

If that makes sense. To the other fossils on the list.

--Amanda




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Nov  4 23:05:30 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:05:30 -0800
Subject: OT: Bible-thumpers attack _The Wizard Oz_
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGELCCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac .uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001104150422.025157b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5116

Just so you don't think Harry is their only target:
http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/homemake/wizardoz.htm



                                                 -- Dave




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov  4 23:58:20 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 17:58:20 -0600
Subject: Went to the Dayton's show!
Message-ID: <3A04A29C.5E78649B@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5117

The good news is that I got 30+ pictures with the digital camera!

The bad news is that I don't know how to download them to my computer!
(I've never used it before).

Since I've never used a digital camera, I'm not quite sure how well they
turned out--it's a little difficult to tell from the tiny screen in the
camera. The light was rather dim, and it was a struggle to get
unobstructed shots with the crowd.  The crowd wasn't all that bad,
either, since this was the first day it opened, and they haven't really
started publicity yet.  Still, I'm sure I got at least some good ones,
enough to give you an idea what the show was like.

All you merchandise mavens would swoon over the gift shop, too.  Book
ends, sheets, throw rugs, mugs, key rings, pillows, ornaments, wizard
wands, Harry Potter glasses, calendars, day books, etc., etc., and all
sorts of wizardly candy . . .

My husband, the technowiz, is at work until late.  He needs to bring
home fresh batteries for the camera so that we can safely transfer the
data, and then we need to figure out how to plug the deeley-bob into the
thingamajig and run the software to download to the computer, and then
how to transfer them to the files..

I've made a folder in the files section and will download the photos as
soon as I can (once I figure it out), and I'll give a full report on the
show, too (not now, dinner to cook).  But I wanted to let you all know
that it was SPLENDID and to get this message out today as a birthday
gift to Penny: PICTURES WILL BE COMING!  Happy birthday, Penny!

Peg






From SHENmagic at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 00:27:44 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:27:44 EST
Subject: Subject: It's moot now, anyway . . .
Message-ID: <e8.c12d995.27360380@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5118

It may be moot but it was love at first sight for me....Benjamin Whitrow has 
the essence (tho not the nose) of Albus Dumbledore!



 Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>writes:


>since Richard Harris has apparently been signed for Dumbledore, but I
>really, really would have liked to have seen Benjamin Whitrow in the
>part, who played Mr. Bennet in A&E's Pride and Prejudice.  Here is a
>picture of him looking blue-eyed and twinkley:
>
>http://www.homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/mr-benn.jpg

And on the subject of I'm a Harryaholic (me, too), I was holding my breath 
through most of that post!  I too, have let professional and family 
obligations slide, while I've gone swimming in the magical and fan world. 
I've questioned what am I doing? 
I sure was uplifted by your post, Peg,  to read about "gifted children" and 
letting them indulge.  Though chronologically, I qualify as adult and then 
some.... Sending you  wishes and charms that all your research DOES enrich 
your own projects down the line-and applauding you for surrendering to the 
mystery of when and where...I really enjoy your writings on the Virtures!


Aylihael

"Happiness is like a precious ming vase balanced on the head of a dancing 
drunk"



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov  5 00:31:15 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 4 Nov 2000 16:31:15 -0800
Subject: Happy Birthday Penny...
Message-ID: <20001105003115.27732.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5119

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From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov  5 00:43:04 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 00:43:04 -0000
Subject: Went to the Dayton's show!
In-Reply-To: <3A04A29C.5E78649B@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8u2aeo+93sb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5120

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> All you merchandise mavens would swoon over the gift shop, too.  
Book ends, sheets, throw rugs, mugs, key rings, pillows, ornaments, 
wizard wands, Harry Potter glasses, calendars, day books, etc., etc., 
and all sorts of wizardly candy . . .

[whimper] stuuuuffffff... [whimper]

voicelady




From stephanie75 at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 02:05:13 2000
From: stephanie75 at aol.com (stephanie75 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:05:13 EST
Subject: Thanks and another question?
Message-ID: <38.d6df915.27361a59@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5121

I just wanted to thank everyone who commented on my questions. I was also 
wondering if any of the teachers at Hogwarts are married? I don't recall it 
ever being mentioned. It just seems odd that not one of them is married.

"Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>  wrote

>Another possibility: Draco looks like Lucius, maybe Snape likes Draco 
>because of liking Lucius. I don't mean deliberately showing 
>favoritism to a friend or financial benefactor's child, I mean the 
>unconscious tendency to have a good feeling about someone who looks 
>like your friend and a bad feeling about someone who looks like your 
>enemy.

I didn't know he liked Lucius. And I would think that being an 
ex-deatheater(Snape), Lucius wouldn"t like him at ALL! 
                                  Thanks ,Stephanie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov  5 02:48:58 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:48:58 -0600
Subject: New (I hope) Snape thought
Message-ID: <3A04CA9A.DD609D6B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5122

You know, we all assume Snape likes Draco. I'm not sure he does. I'm not
sure he likes any of his students. Snape is childish, yes, but has an
adult's perception and is easily complex enough for "not disliking" to
be vastly different from "liking."

I think Snape would favor any Slytherin student over a Gryffindor (or a
Hufflepuff, or a Ravenclaw). I think he would favor any student who
bedeviled Harry. That the ringleader of the Slytherins, Draco, happens
to hate Harry is a happy coincidence for Snape. By no means do I think
this means he actually *likes* Draco. Draco simply serves a purpose,
which Snape likes.

Further, Snape might actually *dislike* Draco. Snape might take as much
malicious pleasure in removing obstacles from Draco's path, as he does
in placing them in Harry's. Snape has easily been around long enough to
recognize Draco's type, and also has been around long enough to know
that the earlier they get a clue, the better. And he's not handing out
any clues. How funny, to send Lucius Malfoy's son out into the wizarding
world with no idea how to handle adversity or setbacks.

Any thoughts? I just considered we might be taking something for
granted, that is not necessarily the case.

--Amanda






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Nov  5 03:38:28 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:38:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry
References: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com> <3A02D199.2E27E9B8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <047601c046d9$dd84f660$29c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5123


----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry


> Hi --
>
> eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Those who think Rowling would never consider killing Harry will find
> > this interview by Evan Solomon disturbing.
>
> Actually, I didn't find it disturbing at all.  <g>  There's no mention
> of Harry.  It just says that she *knows* who will die in each of the
> remaining books.  That's no big surprise as we've all known she has a
> pretty good roadmap for the plots.  She's going to kill people we love.
> Also not a big surprise -- most all of us assume that Hagrid,
> Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, Ron, Hermione and Harry are all possible
> targets.

Aren't we forgetting one rather large group of future funeral home fodder
here? - i.e., the Death Eaters, who will undoudtedly be eating a little of
their own medicine by the Book Seven finale.  Voldy buys the farm for
certain (the books are morally pointless if he survives), but also destined
for the hangman's noose: Lucius Malfoy, Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle (fils et
pere), and Peter Pettigrew - although Dumbledore's comments at the end of
PoA ("the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's
life") suggests that Wormtail may yet turn tail away from Lord Voldemort,
and die defending Harry.  A few other likely candidates - whose faults are
those of mere weakness rather than total corruption - like Fudge and
Bagman - may also be headed for the chopping block.

Among the good guys: I predict none of the Marauders will survive - Hagrid
and Dumbledore will perish (although both will survive until Book Seven) -
Snape will also sacrifice himself. Harry, Ron, and Hermione all survive.

    - CMC




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 03:35:33 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 03:35:33 -0000
Subject: Check this out
In-Reply-To: <8tsd66+iv7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u2ki5+qdbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5124

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, r.yoo at s... wrote:
> This is probably the most extravagent HP merchandise that I have 
seen 
> so far.  It's a "loft bed"  It looks like a cross between a bunk 
bed, 
> but without the lower bunk and Hogwarts Castle.
> 
> http://www.fao.com/FAOWeb/EComm/ProductPage.cfm?ProdID=084EA2F5-
CE04-4
> 817-A2D0FC0C7AF300E0
> 
> Rebecca
> 
> P.S.  At the University of Michigan the engineers would refer to us 
> LS&A's (Literature, Arts, and the Sciences) as LS&Plays. :(


Went to order it for my son, and it's backordered!

Susan




From drmm at fuuko.com  Sun Nov  5 04:04:30 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (DrMM)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 22:04:30 -0600
Subject: College
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001104214230.00a8f2c0@mail.fuuko.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5125

The college student responds to the U.S. college system questions. . . .

At the University which I attend, we have a group of requirements called 
Essential Studies.  This includes subjects such as Communication (usually 
writing), Humanities, Historical Studies, Language, Scientific Base (Math & 
Science), etc.  Unless you are in your major, you usually only have to take 
3-9 hours (3 hours is one class) in these subjects but there are quite a 
few of these requirements.

The basis for this is to get the "well-rounded" education.  Many people I 
know object to the requirements but I never have.  For example, the 
language requirement.  We're required to take 0-12 hours of a foreign 
language (depending on whether you've taken some before).  I took Spanish 
(now I wish I'd taken Japanese but that's another story).  A lot of people 
think this is pointless: "I'll never need to speak x to anyone.  They'll 
all speak English."  However, we live in an increasingly global 
world.  Spanish is becoming increasingly important in the U.S. as more 
Spanish-speaking immigrants come into the US.  I've used my Spanish to 
speak to people when I was a checker at a grocery store, so I don't 
consider learning it a waste of my time.  (I consider the *classes* a waste 
of my time because I had pathetic teachers but that's something else.)

Another example is my father.  He's an engineer.  He's told me upon 
occasion that many of his classmates became engineers so they wouldn't have 
to take many English classes.  Then he laughs and says,"But I write more as 
an engineer than I ever did when I was in school."  The point being that 
you can never know what skills you need when you get into the real world.

I was originally a pre-med major and then switched to English and 
History.  As a result I have quite a few science classes I don't need.  But 
I don't consider them wasted hours.  I still enjoy science and because I've 
taken the classes I'm able to understand a lot of concepts that I wouldn't 
be able to otherwise.  For example, all the genetic discussions that have 
occurred on the PoU list about the 'mage' gene.  I think knowing these 
concepts will make it easier for me to converse with a wider variety of 
people on a much more intellectual level than I would be otherwise.

I guess I like the concept.  I understand why people don't want to take 
classes that don't relate to their major but in the real world you'll never 
know what to expect.  The English major will use math and the math major 
will write, therefore, having taken classes in the subject will help.  Or 
so I think :)

DrMM
*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM is found at drmm at fuuko.com
http://www.fuuko.com
Most recent anime: Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 04:19:24 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 04:19:24 -0000
Subject: The Death of Harry
In-Reply-To: <047601c046d9$dd84f660$29c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8u2n4c+k74j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5126


I don't think JKR is into as much blood and gore, as Caius predicts.
Reminds me of a discussion on a Star Trek web site..I really liked
the last STNG movie where Capt. Picard has the liaison with the
"older" woman in the bucolic setting......a lot of people were saying
that they much preferred the resistance is futile movie with Data 
masquerading as the Borg, then of course I realized that all the 
people arguing for blood and gore were 14 year old boys......(not 
directed at you, of course, Guy --- assume that's the diminutive for
Caius).

I think Pettigrew will die and in some way because of the fact that 
Harry saved his life (JKR keeps vehemently denying any Tolkien 
influence on her. I maintain (opinionatedly, and understand that
it's must my opinion and many disagree) that no one could read LOTR
and not be affected. The Gollum/Pettigrew comparison is quite 
striking.

I'm afraid Albus Dumbledore will die...Sirius might die defending 
Harry...I HOPE the Malfoys will be destroyed, but I don't think all 
the death eaters will die...some will go to the new wizard prison. 
Perhaps the new warden will be Percy! Or perhaps Percy will betray 
his family, repent, and then die.
(since both Voldemort and Dumbledore agree that the dementors are
Voldemort's natural allies, I assume Azkeban will be no more)

I predict that Hagrid and Olympe (Mme. Maxine) will be sent as 
emissaries to the giants. Do I remember correctly that Hagrid's mother
might still be alive -- they might meet? and negotiate a wizard/giant 
alliance?







From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 04:21:14 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 04:21:14 -0000
Subject: how many people live in southeastern Michigan?
In-Reply-To: <8tuqhc+l434@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u2n7q+lfiv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5127

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, r.yoo at s... wrote:
> I went to the Ann Arbor Halloween Concert.  Everyone in the 
audience 
> and the orchestra wears a costume.  I had expected to see alot of 
> wizards and witches, but one costume in partiuclar was very 
creative. 
> A little girl was wearing a torn up white sheet and her face was 
> painted white.  Around her neck was an old toilet seat.  She was 
> Moaning Myrtle!  This old man came up to her and was like "What are 
> you supposed to be?  I thought it was very creative and unique 
> costume.


A wonderful concert -- wished I could have attended this year.....

How many people are in Ann Arbor/southeastern Michigan?

We could easily have a gathering......

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 04:25:26 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 04:25:26 -0000
Subject: I have a problem/idea for Peg
In-Reply-To: <8tuvjo+5v9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u2nfm+oujq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5128

Peg, couldn't you publish your seven deadly sins/virtues?
I think the world is ripe for commentary on HP, and it would
be great for the world to hear your analyses.

I was annoyed at the Washington Post article about FAO Schwarz
furniture that referred to Harry as a "poor" orphan, when in
fact he inherited wealth. Why don't they read the books? Or
at least run all articles past HPfourGrownups? So, it would
be great to have an informed commentary published.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 04:39:10 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 04:39:10 -0000
Subject: Dursley Questions
In-Reply-To: <8u0h7h+f48k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u2o9e+i3t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5129

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Gen " <gchua at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> 
wrote:
> . I 
> doubt they would even want to question or discuss whatever was 
> written at all on the basis that they have been dying to stamp out 
> all the wizarding nonsense out of Harry. What I continue to be 
> surprised about is that they continue to keep Harry, when they seem 
> only to keen to leave him at train station in PS/SS


Maybe Dumbledore is paying them




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 04:50:32 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 04:50:32 -0000
Subject: Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
In-Reply-To: <8u1ufb+61a3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u2ouo+krgp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5130

I think it might be interesting to discuss class issues here
and how they play out in the HP books, and how they are different
in the U.S. and the U.K. and anywhere else members are at...

It WOULD be interesting to know ses status, education status of the
members of this list. Could someone construct a poll? Add books
read in a year (BEFORE Harry Potter, since I am not reading too many 
new books because I'm too busy REreading HP). Maybe add: newspapers 
read, magazines read....Someone else interested in this, or should I 
do it, or are we being elitist? Someone would have to construct the
U.K. and other country equivalent to U.S. bachelor's, 
masters/law/medical, ph.d. etc.

Computers are still expensive in the U.S. More and more people have 
them. But they are still far more expensive than a VCR. A lot of 
people have email at work, but not a huge amount of time to devote
to list serves and egroups. In addition, a separate phone line costs 
money, too.  (I'd be interested to hear what others think). Then, 
there is some cost associated with internet access. It adds up.


Susan





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Nov  5 04:56:22 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:56:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] REal life muggles
In-Reply-To: <a9.d3524f2.2734bb86@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001104204515.026f5510@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5131

At 08:08 PM 11/3/00 -0500, HarryPotterJrs at aol.com wrote:
>Talking about Witchcraft and Wicca, for the record, we have always spoke of
>non-witchy folks as Mundanes.  Interesting how close that is to Muggles, FWIW.
>~shahara

I tend to privately refer to non-Pagans (especially the ones who tell me
I'm going to hell) as "Muggles".  Harry Potter is the reason I discovered
Paganism, so I can't help invoking "Potterisms".



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov  5 04:57:14 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 22:57:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley Questions
References: <8tvvrp+i4ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A04E8AA.DCC547CC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5132

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> - What do they know about Voldemort?  Surely they would have asked
> questions when the Potters were killed and their house was blown to
> smithereens.  Do they understand who Voldemort was (is), and what his
> return might mean to Harry and his blood relations?

Dumbledore doesn't seem to err on the side of overexplaining things. I'm
betting he just told them that an evil wizard murdered them, and that Harry
was their responsibility, and that they'd be hearing from Hogwarts in ten
years or so regarding Harry's admission there. Presumably the safeguards
Dumbledore set in place around Harry while he's in his blood relations' care
also protect the blood relations.

> - What is the nature of the protection that living with blood
> relatives affords Harry?  Is it akin to having a Secret Keeper?
> Perhaps it is related to the protection that Harry received when his
> mother died to protect him.

I'm certain it is related; both are identified as "ancient magic," and
neither has been very much explained. I think this is something that will
come out in later books.

> - Does anyone in a position to know ever say explicitly that Lily was
> a muggle-born witch?  Could Petunia have been a squib in a wizard
> household instead?  Harry *assumes* that his grandparents were
> muggles, but do we know for sure?

Well, everyone's pretty unanimous in identifying Harry as half-Muggle, but I
don't remember if that "everyone" includes anyone who might know any
different. I've wondered this myself, with my half-baked "Harry is the last
descendant of *all* the other three founders, not just Gryffindor"
theory--he'd have to get it on both sides. But he's probably not.

> - When and how did Lily and Petunia's parents die? They must have
> been comparatively young (50s or 60s) when Harry was born.  Might
> they have been killed by Voldemort?  If so, could that have
> traumatized Petunia into rejecting "the wizarding world" completely?

I kind of got the idea that Petunia didn't get along with her parents too
well. She clearly resented what she perceived as them favoring Lily. That
seems to have been the lasting traumatic effect, not their deaths. I do
think it's pretty clear they're not on this mortal coil anymore, though,
since the Dursleys are the only living relatives. I presume James' parents
were either already dead or were Voldemort fodder, but Lily's? hmmm..

But people do die at that age, of natural and/or unfortunate causes, even
without the help of evil wizards. My mother died at 54, my father at 65,
with no unusual circumstances. Lily's parents could just simply be dead.
Perhaps the strain of parenting Petunia got to them.....

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov  5 05:02:35 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:02:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley Questions
References: <8u0h7h+f48k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A04E9EB.B0AD2D2B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5133

Gen wrote:

> What I continue to be
> surprised about is that they continue to keep Harry, when they seem
> only to keen to leave him at train station in PS/SS. Maybe that was
> to scare him and they would have returned for him when he couldn't
> find Platform 9 3/4. Perhaps having Harry around is something which
> puts them in a good light. On the surface, they would appear to the
> unknowing public as good upright concerned relatives.

Yes, the Dursleys seem very concerned with public appearances. One could say
solely concerned.

> I wondered this myself as Voldemort said in GoF that Dumbledore had
> used ancient magic to protect Harry while he's with his relatives and
> or Privet Drive. It probably only keeps Voldemort and DEs away as it
> certainly didn't stop Dobby.

But Dobby wasn't technically harming Harry. His intentions were to protect
him, so maybe the protective magic either didn't detect him or let him
through.

> I doubt it's a secret keeper type of
> spell otherwise the elf wouldn't even be able to locate him and
> Sirius in dog-form spotted him as well in the vicinity. Also, even
> though the Weasleys want him to stay for the summer after the fourth
> year, Dumbledore had insisted that Harry had to stay with the
> Dursleys first. I'm really curious about this point too.

Why? Dumbledore wants Harry with the Dursleys, where he's protected by that
ancient magic, rather than with the Weasleys, where he's not, and also where
other wizards needed for the upcoming struggle would be put in danger by
Harry's presence.

> Petunia had mentioned something to the effect that their parents were
> so proud to have a witch in the family. This would appear to imply
> that they were muggles. On the other hand, in the mirror of Erised,
> Harry came across many more people with "green eyes" which would
> imply Lily's family. I doubt that Muggles would appear in that
> Mirror ?

Why wouldn't they? It shows the viewer's desire(s), with no other parameter.
Harry desires his family, there they were.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov  5 05:11:50 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:11:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about  American College education.
References: <8u2ouo+krgp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A04EC15.A6367C80@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5134

Susan McGee wrote:

> It WOULD be interesting to know ses status, education status of the
> members of this list. Could someone construct a poll? Add books
> read in a year (BEFORE Harry Potter, since I am not reading too many
> new books because I'm too busy REreading HP).

Do we count books that we reread, separately?

> Maybe add: newspapers
> read, magazines read....

I, for one, have no clue as to quantity; I can't even remember who has clean
socks from day to day. You might want to do one poll for education level,
and another for reading activity, else more frazzled people like me might
avoid the poll because they can't figure out what to put for a couple of the
questions.

> Someone else interested in this, or should I
> do it, or are we being elitist?

Nah, we're only elitist if we start drawing conclusions. Just asking as a
matter of interest is simple interest. I'd like to know, too.

> Computers are still expensive in the U.S. More and more people have
> them. But they are still far more expensive than a VCR. A lot of
> people have email at work, but not a huge amount of time to devote
> to list serves and egroups. In addition, a separate phone line costs
> money, too.  (I'd be interested to hear what others think). Then,
> there is some cost associated with internet access. It adds up.

Um, is this for the poll too? Or just ruminations? Are you going to ask what
computer setup people have, or just whether they connect in from work or
home?

I don't have a separate phone line because San Antonio recently became a
"doughnut city," with Bexar County keeping the 210 area code and all
surrounding counties going to 830. Even before I make any calls at all, I
pay $50 for the metro number. I just let people know if I'm online, the
phone will ring forever.

Oh, and I finally looked at the FAO Schwartz bed. I'm so obsessed; all I
could think of was that it had too many crannies for spiders, and I couldn't
spot them against the coloring easily enough. But surely, someone could
build something like that for loads less than the price? Wow, to have liquid
capital....

--Amanda




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 05:12:49 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 05:12:49 -0000
Subject: Heather/education/job training.
In-Reply-To: <008301c0468f$2ada6f80$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8u2q8h+fchh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5135

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> Not certain about the others, but I think I absorbed the jist of 
your post.
> 
> In a traditional local 4-year college, we have to have what I was 
told is
> called a "well-rounded" education.  This means we are forced to 
take classes
> like "The History of China" when we're Engineering majors (a 
friend's
> courseload currently), or the "Physics of Light" when we're an 
education
> major.  These "extra" courses are supposed to give us a firm base 
for doing
> our job later.
> 
> I for one don't understand the reasoning behind this (where on 
earth in the
> computer field are you going to use the history of china unless you 
go
> there?) but I agreed to it when I was attending Akron U

it's the whole idea of a liberal arts education. Please forgive me;
I may not sound like myself. My father (gone ten years) felt
strongly about a liberal arts education, complete with European tour, 
even though he himself grew up working class. It's the idea that 
education is not about job training.

My parents were upper middle class wannabees even though they were 
both brought up working class. They brought us up middle class.

Part of this was the idea that we should get a broad based education.
Specialization would occur in graduate school, or law, medical school.
I almost became an attorney. My brother is  Ph.D. english professor.
I do have a master's degree, but it is irrelevant (mostly) to my work.

The liberal arts degree idea is that everyone should have a basic 
education. Engineers should know about Homer. Historians should have
a basic understanding of scientific and mathematical principles. 
Everyone should know something about art and music. (Uh, is it Mark 
Twain who talks about a basic education?. Usually, there was the 
expectation that people would learn a foreign language (although non-
U.S. people
take this as a given, most people in the U.S. know only English). 

The idea is that knowing the history of another country (China, for 
example) would broaden a person's horizons, help them think outside 
the box, expose them to different viewpoints about the world (same
idea as the European tour).

The "better" the university, the more that they subscribe to this 
concept, and require their students to be proficient in many 
different areas. I myself was a bit impatient with the college p.e.
requirement, but actually enjoyed what I ended up taking (fencing)

I like this idea (probably because it's the father within). I'd like
my kids to have basic skills (cooking, auto maintenance, sewing, 
word processing, basic computer skills, financial planning, swimming, 
first aid, drawing, reading music, -- you get the idea) and a good 
solid basic education that would include math, science, english 
(grammar, literature, and writing), languages and history.








From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 05:16:47 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 05:16:47 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday Penny...
In-Reply-To: <20001105003115.27732.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8u2qfv+fd5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5136

a very merry unbirthday to me! to you!

You say it's your birthday
I hope you have a good time!

Susan





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 07:20:06 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 07:20:06 +0000
Subject: Fawkes rises again... (but mostly OT)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105072006.0090ba30@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5137

Today we celebrate Bonfire Night in the UK.  

For those of you who aren't familiar with this tradition, every year, on the
evening of 5th November, British people let off fireworks and burn a "guy"
on a bonfire to commemorate the Gunpowder Plot, in which a group of Catholic
conspirators plotted to blow up the King (James 1) and Houses of Parliament
in 1605.  Guy Fawkes - a gunpowder expert - was arrested in the cellars of
the Parliament buildings before any damage was done and was tortured until
he revealed the names of the rest of the group.

These days, there are organised public firework displays but many people
have their own private events, where they attempt to set fire to next door's
garden shed and scare the life out of the neighbourhood house pets. There
are a number of odd traditions associated with Fireworks Night, as it is
also known, including one I'm not so keen on that involves small children
sitting on the pavements begging for "a penny for the guy".  Normally, the
"guy" is Dad's old gardening clothes stuffed with newspaper and topped off
with a masked head intended to be an effigy of Guy Fawkes.  I believe The
Yeoman of the Guard still make a ceremonial check of the cellars of the
Houses of Parliament before each new session, just in case one of us loyal
citizens, or the IRA, have decided to have another go at blowing the place up.

The term bonfire derives from the earlier "bone fire".  Although I don't
think this wasn't exclusively associated with witches, at one time witches
were burned at the stake and fires were quite literally made of their bones.
On Bonfire Night, the bonfire and fireworks represent the exploding ball of
flame that could have been our Houses of Parliament on 5th November 1605.
For the person in the street this night is the closest they will ever get to
anarchy.  

As if all this isn't sinister enough, there is a nursery rhyme associated
with the event:

Remember, remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder treason and plot 
We see no reason 
Why gunpowder treason 
Should ever be forgot! 

If you want more info: http://www.bonefire.org/guy/index.html

Of course, the most significant fact for this group is that Fawkes the
Phoenix was named after the traitor, Guy Fawkes. 

Neil

 

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From laurlaur1013 at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  5 07:33:35 2000
From: laurlaur1013 at hotmail.com (L. L. M.)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 01:33:35 CST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 237
Message-ID: <F159qhx2rfYIu5vC8UO000044d9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5138

I think this theory is supported by an X-Files episode called "Kill Switch." 
  (Ok..i'm a major lurker but you can always rely on my to give my 2 knuts 
when I'm reminded of X-Files)  The episode is mainly about AI (artificial 
intelligence) and the computer knows how to blow things up and stuff but 
that's not where I'm going.  A part of the episode shows how someone can 
"upload" himself onto the internet, and the body dies but the mind lives 
forever through cyberspace. Then the girl does the same to herself so she 
can be with the guy in cyberspace.  I guess that kind of relates to being a 
cyber-elixer of life?
Lynnia

<<<I've just been reading Ray Kurzweil's book _The Age of Spitiual Machines_
by Ray Kurzweil.  Among other things, he predicits that computer technology
will allow us to drink the Elixer of Life and become immortal by 2050.  I 
find
this evocative, but at the same time I can't help thinking of this prospect 
in
the context of what Dumbledore tells Harry... Is Kurzweil and other
cyber-Flamels
longing for "precisely what is worst for them" and seeking to use computers 
to
evade "the next great adventure"?



                                                 -- Dave>>>

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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 07:47:00 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:47:00 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday Penny...
References: <1.5.4.32.20001104204240.0090b79c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001a01c046fc$95141c80$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5139

> Just dropping in from new Venice (aka the United Kingdom) to wish Penny a
> very happy BIRTHDAY!
>
> Penny, you've done a great job of keeping a bunch of assorted fanatics,
> obsessives, addicts, maniacs, mundanes, goats and erstwhile gifted
children
> under control, not to mention co-authoring some great fanfic.  Have a
great
> day and a magical life!
>
> Neil

"goats"--plural?!

And I thought I was the only one! Yet another sign of what a good job you've
done Penny.  Thanks a zillion, and I hope you had a terrific bash, but
please, please don't have such a bad hangover that you can't keep working on
ASA, since (besides being one your goats) I'm also one of your ASA addicts.
(It all started three months ago, when I first snuck over to ff.net or a
quick hit ... then I started pilfering the PoU files on a regular basis ...
finally I joined the email list to make sure I'd never again wait more than
half a day for the latest  ... )

Seriously, though (and even if I am a day late): thanks for all the time,
intelligence, creativity, personal warmth and good judgment you've poured
into the online HP community!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 12:43:24 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 04:43:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] College
Message-ID: <20001105124324.23848.qmail@web208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5140


--- DrMM <drmm at fuuko.com> wrote:
> The college student responds to the U.S. college
> system questions. . . .
> 
> Another example is my father.  He's an engineer. 
> He's told me upon 
> occasion that many of his classmates became
> engineers so they wouldn't have 
> to take many English classes.  Then he laughs and
> says,"But I write more as 
> an engineer than I ever did when I was in school." 
> The point being that 
> you can never know what skills you need when you get
> into the real world.
> 
I really had to chuckle at that one. I used to work as
an office manager at an engineering consulting company
and none of the engineers there had very good writing
skills. At one point the President made them all take
writing courses, and none of them could understand
why. At least the President recognized his lack of
skills and always had one of us check everything he
wrote. I once refused to send a fax for one of the
engineers - it had 17 mistakes on 2 pages of text (he
even started 5 paragraphs on the second page with the
words "And so, therefore.."!). He didn't see what was
wrong with what he had written. When I asked on of the
other engineers, he said they didn't have to take
English (Communication) as one of their courses. So
much for the wonderful Canadian education system.

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 12:46:09 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 12:46:09 +0000
Subject: JKR on Desert Island Discs (II)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105124609.008e0a30@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5141

Okay, here are a few bits and bobs from the "Desert Island Discs" interview
with JKR...

***

JKR's friends from Exeter University think it's hilarious that she was given
an honorary degree.  One of them suggested that an engraved ashtray in the
University bar would have been more appropriate.

She mentions children writing to her from overseas, asking thing like "Why
hasn't Marcus Flint left the school?".  In that case she replied "He is so
stupid he had to do another year.either that or I made a mistake.  But I
prefer answer (a)".  

She plays the guitar very badly and admires Johnny Marr's playing (referring
to The Smiths' track she chose).

As a child she was a daydreamer with a rich fantasy life - "freckly, squat,
with thick national health glasses, a bit of a know it all".  She read
"anything" and nothing was banned in her house, so she read a lot of adult
novels at a very young age. However, there was no classical music in her
parents' house.

She thinks she that she may have reflected some of her own childhood in
writing about Harry because home was "a difficult place to be".  Her mother
was very ill with a severe form of multiple sclerosis.  She died at 45 (when
JKR was about six months into writing PS) and never knew of her daughter's
success.  

The name Dumbledore came straight out of Thomas Hardy's "The Mayor of
Casterbridge" - an old word meaning a bumblebee (which we'd heard before).

The word parselmouth, she thinks, is slang word for someone with a malformed
mouth, now disused.  She has always collected and stored weird words.

She finds it funny that two groups are really supportive of what she's
doing: those who believe passionately in the boarding school system and
practising witches. She thinks it's very strange to have united these two
groups, but doesn't agree with either of their points of view.  She
commented that people in book signing queues come up to her and whisper
secretively, "I'm trying the spells".

She admits that, in all the fuss over GoF, being in public eye was not an
enjoyable experience.  When she was poised to write about Rita Skeeter, she
thought "they will think this is my response".  She claims it wasn't and
that the character was originally called Bridget and appeared in an early
draft of "Philosopher's Stone".  She had her in the Leaky Cauldron scene,
rushing towards Harry trying to get an interview.  Eventually, though, she
decided that Rita Skeeter would be much better placed in the middle of the
series.

That's about it.  Anything new in there? 

Neil

PS: I have a tape of the full programme (45 minutes).


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Nov  5 11:43:03 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:43:03 -0000
Subject: Socio Economic data and HP 
References: <8u1uf9+9ool@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c0471f$68453c20$e68e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5142


----- Original Message -----
From: Scott <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I have a problem, Socio Economic data and HP +
OT question about American College education.


> JKR has said (I believe)that there is no wizarding university but I
> still don't know if I buy it. (Just like I don't buy the fact that
> Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Great Britain). Anyway if
> there isn't then I guess most wizards just go to trade schools, and
> apprenticeship with other shoppe owners and such.

That's what I've done in my fanfic (still in progress).  You leave Hogwarts
and get apprenticed in your field, then qualify as a fully trained whatever.

Plus, Percy Weasley leaves Hogwarts and goes straight into working at the
Ministry.  I know he was Head Boy and probably top of his classes too, but
the same probably holds true for others too - they leave and go straight to
work.  After all, the prime qualification for most wizards and witches is
magical ability, and after seven years at Hogwarts learning about it,
they've probably gone as far as they can just learning.  I guess the idea is
they've spent seven years practicing magic, now it's time to get out there
and use it.

> The last part of this message deals with the socio economic data and
> how it relates to education.  As far as we know (and I'm not
> searching the books or anything so it may not be true) but I don't
> really remember any "white collar wizards" that didn't work for the
> MoM.  How would one become qualified for a ministry job if not higher
> Education, and for that matter, how well does the ministry pay (ie
> Arthur...) -and maybe the owner of "The Three Broomsticks" makes just
> as much money.

If Arthur's income is anything to go by, evidently not a lot.  He is a
Department Head, after all.  However, you then have to factor in the fact he
has seven kids, which most wouldn't have.  That probably raises his expenses
considerably.

Jinx




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov  5 13:41:31 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 09:41:31 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanks and another question?
Message-ID: <id.05112000094131.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 5143

I remember when I was a kid that one of my old teachers moved into my neighborhood with her family.  And I was completely stunned.  She was married?  And she had kids?!?  How strange.  She was a teacher, for pete's sake!  I had assumed, as a lot of kids do, that teaching was not only what she did for a living, but it completely encompassed everything else about her.  It's hard for a lot of kids to realize that their teachers are regular people, too, and that they have normal lives just like everyone else.

To get to my point, since these stories are from Harry's POV, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the same mindset going on there.  Probably even more so, since there is so much mystery involved in the magical community.  The older characters' spouses/S.O's aren't involved in this particular storyline, so they aren't mentioned.  Doesn't mean that they're not there.

Hope my ramblings made some kind of sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I just wanted to thank everyone who commented on my questions. I was also  wondering if any of the teachers at Hogwarts are married? I don't recall it  ever being mentioned. It just seems odd that not one of them is married.

"Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>  wrote

>Another possibility: Draco looks like Lucius, maybe Snape likes Draco 
>because of liking Lucius. I don't mean deliberately showing 
>favoritism to a friend or financial benefactor's child, I mean the 
>unconscious tendency to have a good feeling about someone who looks 
>like your friend and a bad feeling about someone who looks like your 
>enemy.

I didn't know he liked Lucius. And I would think that being an  ex-deatheater(Snape), Lucius wouldn"t like him at ALL! 
                                  Thanks ,Stephanie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From elfnorc at voyager.net  Sun Nov  5 12:30:33 2000
From: elfnorc at voyager.net (Elf and Orc)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 07:30:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Socio Economic data and HP + OT question about American College education.
References: <8u2ouo+krgp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0552E9.2FE1@voyager.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5144

Greetings;  I think class is an issue in the HP books.  Both in terms of
financial class (all the Draco vs Ron comments) and wizard vs
muggle-born and thus background.  In reading the books I keep wondering
why there isn't (or doesn't seem to be) wizard colleges.  Percy leaving
the equivelant of high school and going straight in to an executive
government position seems strange.  
	I have also heard repeatedly that the internet was another large issue
in the haves vs have nots in the US and it was making the gap wider. 
For me and my friends the internet has become the standard for
communication and information and it is easy to forget how many people
in the US have never even owned a computer.  I think there are two
factors going on though, the first being economic the second the
reluctance to try new things.  I also know several people who could
easily afford a computer and internet service and just haven't.   I
wonder if the later (not trying it) is a function of education.  It is
quite interesting how the internet has also opened up the world.  A few
years ago conversing with others in "far away lands" seemed weird and
now it just seems so normal.    
Tina (BTW I have 2 bachelors and a masters degree)

Susan McGee wrote:
> 
> I think it might be interesting to discuss class issues here
> and how they play out in the HP books, and how they are different
> in the U.S. and the U.K. and anywhere else members are at...
> 
> It WOULD be interesting to know ses status, education status of the
> members of this list. Could someone construct a poll? Add books
> read in a year (BEFORE Harry Potter, since I am not reading too many
> new books because I'm too busy REreading HP). Maybe add: newspapers
> read, magazines read....Someone else interested in this, or should I
> do it, or are we being elitist? Someone would have to construct the
> U.K. and other country equivalent to U.S. bachelor's,
> masters/law/medical, ph.d. etc.
> 
> Computers are still expensive in the U.S. More and more people have
> them. But they are still far more expensive than a VCR. A lot of
> people have email at work, but not a huge amount of time to devote
> to list serves and egroups. In addition, a separate phone line costs
> money, too.  (I'd be interested to hear what others think). Then,
> there is some cost associated with internet access. It adds up.
> Susan
>



From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sun Nov  5 11:48:45 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:48:45 -0000
Subject: OT LOTR (was The Death of Harry)
References: <8u2n4c+k74j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c0471e$5b327bc0$0e40073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5145

Susan wrote...

> I think Pettigrew will die and in some way because of the fact that
> Harry saved his life (JKR keeps vehemently denying any Tolkien
> influence on her. I maintain (opinionatedly, and understand that
> it's must my opinion and many disagree) that no one could read LOTR
> and not be affected. The Gollum/Pettigrew comparison is quite
> striking.

Oh, darnit...I guess this is my own fault for not reading them before, but I
didn't know the above about Gollum yet - a couple of weeks ago, inspired by
the list, I finally finished The Hobbit after ten years in the attempt and
have now moved onto The Fellowship of the Ring...50 pages in and really
enjoying it...please tell me (without being specific *g*) that there's a lot
more to happen than just Gollum sacrificing himself for the good of others?

Alix





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 14:58:28 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 14:58:28 +0000
Subject: JKR on Desert Island Discs (I)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105145828.008e8a38@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5146

Okay, it looks like eGroups lost my earlier post during its down-time, so
I'll risk posting it again...

Hi everyone,

I've just finished listening to JK Rowling on BBC Radio 4's "Desert Island
Discs".  Here are the records she chose to take to her imaginary desert
island (excuse any misspellings):

The Beatles - "Come Together"
The Smiths - "Bigmouth Strikes Again"
Beethoven - "Apassionata"
Tchaikovsky - "Violin Concerto in D Major"
REM - "Everybody Hurts"
Marianne Faithfull - "Guilt"
Jimi Hendrix Experience - "All Along The Watchtower"
Mozart - "Requiem in D Minor"

Each guest is allowed one book in addition to The Bible and complete works
of Shakespeare.  JKR chose "The SAS Survival Guide" to give hersefl a better
chance of staying alive on the desert island.

Finally, she was allowed one luxury item, and she chose some paper and a pen.

I'll post some snippets from the interview with Sue Lawley in a moment.
Nothing too amazing, but one or two interesting things.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From elfnorc at voyager.net  Sun Nov  5 12:19:50 2000
From: elfnorc at voyager.net (Elf and Orc)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 07:19:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] how many people live in southeastern Michigan?
References: <8u2n7q+lfiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A055065.26C2@voyager.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5147

Greetings;  I live in Lansing which is not far away.  I had never heard
about this concert or would have attended.  I think the costume was
great.  Tina

Susan McGee wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, r.yoo at s... wrote:
> > I went to the Ann Arbor Halloween Concert.  Everyone in the
> audience
> > and the orchestra wears a costume.  I had expected to see alot of
> > wizards and witches, but one costume in partiuclar was very
> creative.
> > A little girl was wearing a torn up white sheet and her face was
> > painted white.  Around her neck was an old toilet seat.  She was
> > Moaning Myrtle!  This old man came up to her and was like "What are
> > you supposed to be?  I thought it was very creative and unique
> > costume.
> A wonderful concert -- wished I could have attended this year.....
> How many people are in Ann Arbor/southeastern Michigan?
> We could easily have a gathering......
> Susan



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 12:09:47 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 12:09:47 +0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105120947.008ea3c0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5148

Hi everyone,

I've just finished listening to JK Rowling on BBC Radio 4's "Desert Island
Discs".  Here are the records she chose to take to her imaginary desert
island (excuse any misspellings):

The Beatles - "Come Together"
The Smiths - "Bigmouth Strikes Again"
Beethoven - "Apassionata"
Tchaikovsky - "Violin Concerto in D Major"
REM - "Everybody Hurts"
Marianne Faithfull - "Guilt"
Jimi Hendrix Experience - "All Along The Watchtower"
Mozart - "Requiem in D Minor"

Each guest is allowed one book in addition to The Bible and complete works
of Shakespeare.  JKR chose "The SAS Survival Guide" to give hersefl a better
chance of staying alive on the desert island.

Finally, she was allowed one luxury item, and she chose some paper and a pen.

I'll post some snippets from the interview with Sue Lawley in a moment.
Nothing too amazing, but one or two interesting things.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 12:12:18 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 12:12:18 +0000
Subject: JKR on "Desert Island Discs" (I)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105121218.008ebe0c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5149

SORRY... left the header out before.

Hi everyone,

I've just finished listening to JK Rowling on BBC Radio 4's "Desert Island
Discs".  Here are the records she chose to take to her imaginary desert
island (excuse any misspellings):

The Beatles - "Come Together"
The Smiths - "Bigmouth Strikes Again"
Beethoven - "Apassionata"
Tchaikovsky - "Violin Concerto in D Major"
REM - "Everybody Hurts"
Marianne Faithfull - "Guilt"
Jimi Hendrix Experience - "All Along The Watchtower"
Mozart - "Requiem in D Minor"

Each guest is allowed one book in addition to The Bible and complete works
of Shakespeare.  JKR chose "The SAS Survival Guide" to give hersefl a better
chance of staying alive on the desert island.

Finally, she was allowed one luxury item, and she chose some paper and a pen.

I'll post some snippets from the interview with Sue Lawley in a moment.
Nothing too amazing, but one or two interesting things.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sun Nov  5 10:33:02 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:33:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry
References: <8u01q3+68nq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20001105113302.133D.2.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5150

On 04.11.2000 at 04:03:15 Susan McGee wrote:
>> So my votes for a "Death Pool" would be 
>> 1. Dumbledore in Book 6
>> 2. Snape in Book 7
>> 3. Harry in Book 7.
>> 
>> :-) Milz
>
>
>I just had a revelation. Ron will end up as the Minister of Magic.
>Ron is the total and typical adolescent which means we don't know
>who he will be as an adult. 

When I look at a future that's a bit closer I see Arthur as the
Minister of Magic after the defeat of Voldemort, faced with the huge
task of rebuilding and reforming the wizarding world. 
Fudge will have wiggled around for a while, trying to offend neither
side, and finally get a kiss from his beloved dementors whom I expect
to go over to Voldemort's side at the first opportunity. 

Otherwise my votes for a "Death Pool" are on:

Wormtail - redeeming himself by sacrificing his life for Harry
because of the bond that was formed between them when Harry saved his
life in PoA

Lupin - because Rowling wants to take somebody very important from
Harry, but it would be too cruel to take Sirius, his substitute
father (although I really hope I'm wrong here)

Hagrid - see above

Greetings
Christina

"A room without books is like a body without a soul." -Cicero

Check out our book and movie reviews at
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From chrisgoetz at home.com  Sun Nov  5 15:06:02 2000
From: chrisgoetz at home.com (chrisgoetz at home.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:06:02 -0000
Subject: Hallmark items now available for online purchase
Message-ID: <8u3t0q+ab28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5151

I was just visiting the Hallmark online store and noticed that they 
finally have some of their Harry Potter items available for sale 
online: the pewter ornaments, the Hagrid door decoration, two fancy 
little pen-and-paper sets, and, best of all, the fat lady bookends. 

http://www.hallmark.com/hmk/Website/Shopping/sh_home.jsp?
bae=1&siteID=eo2Rt271Pp0-LDHA%2FkADCdhrNF44jOlPYA 

Chris






From jciesla at madbbs.com  Sun Nov  5 15:50:25 2000
From: jciesla at madbbs.com (Julia L. Ciesla)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 10:50:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001105120947.008ea3c0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001105105025.007a4490@mail.madbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5152

err.. sorry.. just got to the bottom of my email and found the list!
Thanks Neil again!

>I've just finished listening to JK Rowling on BBC Radio 4's "Desert Island
>Discs".  Here are the records she chose to take to her imaginary desert
>island (excuse any misspellings):




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Sun Nov  5 09:38:32 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:38:32 -0000
Subject: Reminder - JKR on Radio 4 (UK)
Message-ID: <003801c04710$4ee12280$9e977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5153

Hi all

Just a reminder...  JKR is on Radio 4 this morning.

Radio 4 is available online for you non-UK residents - it is not known if
this specific broadcast will be included in the webcast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/realplayer/index_fm.html

11:15am Desert Island Discs New Series
Sue Lawley's castaway this week is the creator of the Harry Potter books, JK
Rowling.
Repeated Friday

Nick.




From jciesla at madbbs.com  Sun Nov  5 15:48:43 2000
From: jciesla at madbbs.com (Julia L. Ciesla)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 10:48:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Desert Island Discs (II)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001105124609.008e0a30@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001105104843.007a2ba0@mail.madbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5154

Thanks Niel for that update... I was wondering if you or anyone else could
list JKR's "Desert Island Discs?"  I can't believe my favourite author and
I share a love of the Smiths *grins*  How funny.  Sorry if I missed them
the first time around.

Julia





From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 16:17:06 2000
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:17:06 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Desert Island Discs (OT)
Message-ID: <ea.cfbf4a2.2736e202@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5155

So do you think my copy of 'The Witches Bible Complete' by the Farrars would 
count?  lol
~shahara in WI

<< Each guest is allowed one book in addition to The Bible  >>



From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sun Nov  5 10:33:02 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:33:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursley Questions
References: <8tvvrp+i4ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20001105113302.D48.1.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5156

On 04.11.2000 at 03:30:01 Jim Flanagan wrote:
>There are some questions I have regarding the Dursleys:
>
>- What do they know about Voldemort?  Surely they would have asked 
>questions when the Potters were killed and their house was blown to 
>smithereens.  Do they understand who Voldemort was (is), and what
>his 
>return might mean to Harry and his blood relations?

I don't think they do. They refuse to believe that anything that
happens in the wizarding world could have an impact on their lives.
Perhaps they didn't even read Dumbledore's letter properly after the
explanation that the Potters were dead and they were Harry's only
remaining relatives. 

>- Does anyone in a position to know ever say explicitly that Lily
>was 
>a muggle-born witch?  Could Petunia have been a squib in a wizard 
>household instead?  Harry *assumes* that his grandparents were 
>muggles, but do we know for sure?  

Hagrid says at some point that Harry's mother was muggle born but
still a very talented witch. I believe it is in CoS, when they took
the slug-spouting Ron to Hagrid's cabin and they explained to
Hermione and Harry what mudbloods are. 

>- When and how did Lily and Petunia's parents die? They must have 
>been comparatively young (50s or 60s) when Harry was born.  Might 
>they have been killed by Voldemort?  

I doubt it. If it had been important for Voldemort to kill Lily's
blood relations, why did he spare Petunia and Dudley? OTOH he might
not have gotten around to killing them before he found the Potters. 

>If so, could that have 
>traumatized Petunia into rejecting "the wizarding world" completely?

Petunia's rejection of the wizarding world goes back to the time when
Lily found out she was a witch. If wizards had killed her parents,
wouldn't she have blamed Lily and mentioned that in her litany about
the horrible things her sister did to her which we got to hear. And
she would take the threat Voldemort poses more seriously for Dudley's
sake. 

Gen wrote:
>What I continue to be 
>surprised about is that they continue to keep Harry, when they seem 
>only to keen to leave him at train station in PS/SS. Maybe that was 
>to scare him and they would have returned for him when he couldn't 
>find Platform 9 3/4. Perhaps having Harry around is something which 
>puts them in a good light. On the surface, they would appear to the 
>unknowing public as good upright concerned relatives.

The Dursleys do their best to hide the existence of their nephew from
the unknowing public. They never wanted Harry around and IMO they now
only keep him because they are afraid that his wizard friends will
make them if they refuse. 
I wonder why Harry doesn't permanently move in with the Weasleys,
though. The Burrow is considered a safe enough place for him to spend
half his vacation. 

Greetings 
Christina
--
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
 - Bill Watterson: Calvin and Hobbes. Weirdos from another Planet

The site for bookworms and movienuts: http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 17:18:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:18:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heather/education/job training, the white collar question, and assorted ramblings.
References: <8u2q8h+fchh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c0474c$77ca3100$fddd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5157

TO be honest, I never really hated going to the other classes (or else I
wouldn't have taken all the courses in Social Sciences in HS, and graduated
with a major in SS as well as Accounting/Computer vocational).  I liked to
learn about the history of the US but the other cultures were limited to one
class:  World History.  Again, the class was taught by the basketball coach.
If a student in there didn't want to deal with the subject, he'd get him
talking about last Friday night...  We stopped right after Israel became a
country, due to it being June! :)

My major problem currently is my age.  Starting back to school late, like I
did, I feel I have to cram in all the "good" classes, and leave the "fluff"
out, hence my attending the two year instead of the UofA.  I really do want
a degree, but can't afford the time it would take to take the extra
classes--I need a job now!  (This is what I thought when Ian was a year old,
and I had to make my decision on where to attend)  Once he's in a day-school
situation, like Elementary school, then I might have time to devote to going
to one class a year to get that BA.  (Fingers crossed!)

Oh, and for the poll.

Associate's Degree, Computer Programming.
age:  32, one son age 3
Computer at home (and in debt due to it, lol) with a cable connection
Reading materials?  Ack.  Anne Rice, Anything fantasy--Katherine Kurtz,
Piers Anthony, historical romance (Catherine Coulter sp?, Johanna
Lindsey...),PC Magazine, PC World, Better Homes and Gardens, Gardening
(which, is funny--I live in a third floor apt without a backyard!),
Handyman--again, lol!, Working Mother types, Children types (Parenting,
Child, etc...),The Repository (www.cantonrep.com) which is the local paper,
the Beacon the other local paper but that's Akron based, Herbal remedy
books, Wiccan books, Tarot books...

Is that enough of a list?  Grins.  Yes, I too abused my library card as a
kid.  I used to take a brown paper bag (the big grocery store ones) with me
each time I went to the library--nothing smaller would have fit all the
books.  I went every weekend.  (aside:  walked in there about six weeks ago,
and 12 years later, the same librarian is there, and she recognized me on
the spot.  Guess I did spend too much time there!  Of course, they've
remolded and installed Netscape-bound PCs everywhere....shudders at
Netscape)



Seeking white collar employment, which my friend doesn't understand--he's
trying to get me at the gas station with him!  Btw, he's reading HP and his
entire family has already!  (The eldest boy, and his wife--the younger two
still are below reading age)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 11:12 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heather/education/job training.


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...>
> wrote:
> > Not certain about the others, but I think I absorbed the jist of
> your post.
> >
> > In a traditional local 4-year college, we have to have what I was
> told is
> > called a "well-rounded" education.  This means we are forced to
> take classes
> > like "The History of China" when we're Engineering majors (a
> friend's
> > courseload currently), or the "Physics of Light" when we're an
> education
> > major.  These "extra" courses are supposed to give us a firm base
> for doing
> > our job later.
> >
> > I for one don't understand the reasoning behind this (where on
> earth in the
> > computer field are you going to use the history of china unless you
> go
> > there?) but I agreed to it when I was attending Akron U
>
> it's the whole idea of a liberal arts education. Please forgive me;
> I may not sound like myself. My father (gone ten years) felt
> strongly about a liberal arts education, complete with European tour,
> even though he himself grew up working class. It's the idea that
> education is not about job training.
>
> My parents were upper middle class wannabees even though they were
> both brought up working class. They brought us up middle class.
>
> Part of this was the idea that we should get a broad based education.
> Specialization would occur in graduate school, or law, medical school.
> I almost became an attorney. My brother is  Ph.D. english professor.
> I do have a master's degree, but it is irrelevant (mostly) to my work.
>
> The liberal arts degree idea is that everyone should have a basic
> education. Engineers should know about Homer. Historians should have
> a basic understanding of scientific and mathematical principles.
> Everyone should know something about art and music. (Uh, is it Mark
> Twain who talks about a basic education?. Usually, there was the
> expectation that people would learn a foreign language (although non-
> U.S. people
> take this as a given, most people in the U.S. know only English).
>
> The idea is that knowing the history of another country (China, for
> example) would broaden a person's horizons, help them think outside
> the box, expose them to different viewpoints about the world (same
> idea as the European tour).
>
> The "better" the university, the more that they subscribe to this
> concept, and require their students to be proficient in many
> different areas. I myself was a bit impatient with the college p.e.
> requirement, but actually enjoyed what I ended up taking (fencing)
>
> I like this idea (probably because it's the father within). I'd like
> my kids to have basic skills (cooking, auto maintenance, sewing,
> word processing, basic computer skills, financial planning, swimming,
> first aid, drawing, reading music, -- you get the idea) and a good
> solid basic education that would include math, science, english
> (grammar, literature, and writing), languages and history.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From Yaz at good.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 16:35:28 2000
From: Yaz at good.co.uk (Yaz)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:35:28 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Desert Island Discs (I)
References: <1.5.4.32.20001105145828.008e8a38@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <040201c04746$69146140$0d65073e@merchantbtinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5158

I don't often post here, but I heard Desert Island Discs this morning, and
just wanted to add a couple of things...

> The Beatles - "Come Together"
> The Smiths - "Bigmouth Strikes Again"

JKR said that after The Beatles, The Smiths are her favourite band - due to
Johnny Marr's guitar playing and the witty lyrics. I must say, she does have
good taste, The Smiths are a particularly wonderful band *grin*.

> Each guest is allowed one book in addition to The Bible and complete works
> of Shakespeare.  JKR chose "The SAS Survival Guide" to give hersefl a
better
> chance of staying alive on the desert island.
>
> Finally, she was allowed one luxury item, and she chose some paper and a
pen.

>From what I remember (I didn't record it so I can't check) she chose an
unlimited supply of paper and pens, and she then said that since she would
be able to write her own stories for entertainment, she wouldn't have
another literature book but instead would have the SAS Survival Guide as she
felt that staying alive was more important.


Anyway, whilst I'm here, I'd just like to say how much I enjoy reading all
the stuff you all post; keep it coming!

You never know, maybe I'll even start posting more regularly! (Like I have
that much spare time...)

Cheers

Yaz :-)








From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 17:42:38 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:42:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Smiths
Message-ID: <20001105174238.4216.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5159

JKR's favorites include the Smiths?  If I'm not mistaken, they did the
theme song for "Charmed," another set of witches brought to the screen by
WB.  If this sets a precedent, maybe a Smiths song can also become the
Harry Potter theme.

Just an idea.

Melanie (who may soon actually have time to post something more
substantial) <g>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 18:10:53 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 18:10:53 -0000
Subject: Muggles for Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <010101c045c7$90a1b8a0$55dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8u47rd+cd8t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5160

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> How do you get those?
> 
> I visited the link, but this poor blonde got lost....
> 
> 
> And I would love to have a poster...
> 


Hit the button that says *ABFFE store* and then *Muggles for Harry 
Potter*




From rgoertz at austin.rr.com  Sun Nov  5 18:08:56 2000
From: rgoertz at austin.rr.com (Ryan Goertz)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:08:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New (I hope) Snape thought
Message-ID: <200011051816.eA5IGpC02654@sm4.texas.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5161

I wonder if Snape's support of Malfoy is just an act due to the position that Lucius Malfoy
holds. I would imagine that if Snape were to discipline or humiliate Malfoy that he would royally
piss of Lucius and get framed for something he didn't do. Something similar to the situation
that occured with Hagrid in PoA.

Just a thought.

Ryan

>To: "HPforGrownups at egroups.com" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
>cc: 
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] New (I hope) Snape thought

>Further, Snape might actually *dislike* Draco. Snape might take as much
>malicious pleasure in removing obstacles from Draco's path, as he does
>in placing them in Harry's. Snape has easily been around long enough to
>recognize Draco's type, and also has been around long enough to know
>that the earlier they get a clue, the better. And he's not handing out
>any clues. How funny, to send Lucius Malfoy's son out into the wizarding
>world with no idea how to handle adversity or setbacks.

>Any thoughts? I just considered we might be taking something for
>granted, that is not necessarily the case.

>--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 18:20:02 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:20:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New (I hope) Snape thought
References: <3A04CA9A.DD609D6B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00c501c04755$0a14c720$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5162

1) "By no means do I think this means he actually *likes* Draco. Draco
simply serves a purpose, which Snape likes."

2) "Further, Snape might actually *dislike* Draco."

I like it, Amanda. We could call (1) Utilitarian Draconism (UD) (Snape's
using Draco, not being sweet to him) and (2) Covert Antidraconism (CA)
(Snape's puffing up Draco's balloon for the pleasure of popping it).

UD makes a lot of sense. Snape isn't exactly a model Death Eater, so it's
hard to imagine why he'd be genuinely fond of Lucius'son--unless he's ready
to like anyone who hates James' son's guts nearly as much as he does. And
being a Slytherin helps. We haven't really seen anything that would
contradict that: sure he's nice to Draco, but that doesn't mean he really
likes the little cad.

I'm not sure whether CA would survive Occam's razor, though. Why should
Snape be putting so much effort into messing up Lucio's kid? Particularly
with so many other teachers ready, willing and able to show him how dumb he
really is. Buttering up bad guys in hopes of limiting their educational
opportunites seems a pretty complicated sort of antagonism.

An intermdiate position--say "Weak CA"--could work, though: Draco happens to
be useful to Snape, so Snape wines him and dines him. That Snape would
actually like to dice Draco into poisonous little pieces (and make Harry
swallow them) is beside the point. In fact, he may have an even more
important reason for this than bullying Harry: assuming he wants to
infiltrate the Death Eaters, he has to keep his black hat credentials in
good order. Soft soaping Draco would keep the color up.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, flaunting that capacity for academic
trivialization upon which an MA in Systematic Theology is contingent.)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 18:20:14 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:20:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT LOTR (was The Death of Harry)
References: <8u2n4c+k74j@eGroups.com> <003e01c0471e$5b327bc0$0e40073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00c801c04755$0b6478a0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5163

> ...50 pages in and really
> enjoying it...

Hurrah! There are certain experiences--like walking in the moonlight,
Hungarian cooking, your first kiss, or seeing the sun rise over the
Alps--that add that particular tinge to our qualia, make it a treat to be a
human. Reading Tolkein is one of those experiences.

> please tell me (without being specific *g*) that there's a lot
> more to happen than just Gollum sacrificing himself for the good of
others?

That's a pretty tall order. But yes, you're right.  There is a lot more to
happen, and Gollum is a very interesting character. (If you ask me, more
interesting than Frodo.) But I wouldn't expect Gollum to sacrifice himself
for the others, at least--but no, that'd spoil it. Just keep on reading.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat






From rgoertz at austin.rr.com  Sun Nov  5 18:13:05 2000
From: rgoertz at austin.rr.com (Ryan Goertz)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:13:05 -0600
Subject: shark flavored Fudge
Message-ID: <200011051820.eA5IKxC06634@sm4.texas.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5164

Hi folks,

   Just a quick observation here. At the end of Goblet of Fire when we see Fudge trying to
deny the return of Voldemort it reminded me of the town mayor in the Jaws films always
trying to deny the existance of the shark to keep the local economy going. As, we saw
it never worked and eventually bit him on the ass.

Cheers,

Ryan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Yaz at good.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 18:31:06 2000
From: Yaz at good.co.uk (Yaz)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:31:06 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Smiths
References: <20001105174238.4216.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <056d01c04756$90331400$0d65073e@merchantbtinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5165

Me again... I knew once I started posting here I'd never be able to stop...
*grin*

> JKR's favorites include the Smiths?  If I'm not mistaken, they did the
> theme song for "Charmed," another set of witches brought to the screen by
> WB.  If this sets a precedent, maybe a Smiths song can also become the
> Harry Potter theme.

I don't know "Charmed", but according to IMDb, this was an Aaron Spelling
production starring Shannen Doherty, Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa Milano as
three sisters who discover that they have supernatural powers - I assume
this is the "Charmed" to which you are referring?

I can't find any reference to The Smiths music in relation to "Charmed", all
I can find for The Smiths on soundtracks is "I Started Something I Couldn't
Finish" on the "Fever Pitch" soundtrack, "Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get
What I Want" used in both "Never Been Kissed" and "Pretty in Pink" and  "How
Soon Is Now" in both "Out of Bounds" and "The Wedding Singer". Original
Music for "Charmed" is by Tim Truman. Of course, if you're referring to a
completely different "Charmed", all that is irrelevant!

However, now you've got me wondering what Smiths song could be used as the
Harry Potter theme...

Cheers

Yaz :-)




From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Sun Nov  5 18:50:17 2000
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:50:17 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT LOTR /Guilt!
Message-ID: <95.2958696.273705e9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5166

I'm embarrased to say I've never read any of these books...had a friend in 
Grade school so obsessed with them, I couldn't bring myself to read 
them...ok, this will be our next read-aloud book for homeschool!  Do I start 
with the Hobbit, then the trilogy?  Or start with Fellowship??
~shahara
<< > ...50 pages in and really
 > enjoying it...
 
 Hurrah! There are certain experiences--like walking in the moonlight,
 Hungarian cooking, your first kiss, or seeing the sun rise over the
 Alps--that add that particular tinge to our qualia, make it a treat to be a
 human. Reading Tolkein is one of those experiences. >>



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Nov  5 19:04:21 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:04:21 -0000
Subject: Fawkes rises again... (but mostly OT) and the Wizard of OZ
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001105072006.0090ba30@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8u4avl+h1vc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5167

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Today we celebrate Bonfire Night in the UK.  
> 
> "For those of you who aren't familiar with this tradition, every 
year, on the evening of 5th November, British people let off 
fireworks and burn a "guy" on a bonfire to commemorate the Gunpowder 
Plot, in which a group of Catholic conspirators plotted to blow up 
the King (James 1) and Houses of Parliament..."


And just yesterday I bought Diana Wynn Jones' _Witch Week_ in which 
the turning point involves the knowledge of Guy Faukes and Bonfire 
Night.  I bought it as a result of this group--it was previously 
recommended as "what to read after HP"--and did not even think about 
today being Guy Fawkes Day in the UK.  Which I do know about thanks 
to my Liberal Arts degree and history minor, which causes my friends 
to ask me when I'll face off Regis in the hotseat on "Who Wants to be 
a Millionaire".  

And regarding the anti-Oz link:

I read the rant in amazed and disgusted disbelief as I do all such 
rants.  But what got me was the statement that "Wonderful" is one of 
Christ's names.  When they quoted Isaiah 9:6, a comma was erroneously 
placed which utterly changed the meaning of the verse!  "...and his 
name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,..."  instead 
of "...Wonderful Counselor,..."  But I suppose proofreading is not 
one of their strong suits, or reading at all...

Off to clean house, since I don't have a house-elf and my cats 
absolutely refuse to help me out.

Trina




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov  5 19:29:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 13:29:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanks and another question?
References: <id.05112000094131.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <3A05B513.7F362253@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5168

voicelady wrote:

> I remember when I was a kid that one of my old teachers moved into my neighborhood with her family.  And I was completely stunned.  She was married?  And she had kids?!?  How strange.  She was a teacher, for pete's sake!  I had assumed, as a lot of kids do, that teaching was not only what she did for a living, but it completely encompassed everything else about her.  It's hard for a lot of kids to realize that their teachers are regular people, too, and that they have normal lives just like everyone else.
>
> To get to my point, since these stories are from Harry's POV, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the same mindset going on there.  Probably even more so, since there is so much mystery involved in the magical community.  The older characters' spouses/S.O's aren't involved in this particular storyline, so they aren't mentioned.  Doesn't mean that they're not there.

Sort of like Linus and Miss Othmar? (I'm showing my age, aren't I...)

--Amanda




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Nov  5 19:29:06 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 13:29:06 -0600
Subject: OT question about American College education.
References: <20001103172559.29955.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A031641.52F50CB2@swbell.net> <3A0384D8.CB055E18@ibm.net> <008901c0467a$ee988020$8367883e@default> <001301c0468e$a8828400$9243ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A05B502.DDB93179@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5169

Hi --

Just back from a short weekend jaunt to celebrate my birthday & back to
200 emails!  Anyway ... this may have been discussed in more detail
later but I had to chime in here --

lrcjestes wrote:

> As Dee explained usually the first 2 years of college are kind of a
> survey of the realm of education.  Most schools require lots of
> liberal arts courses(english, history, philosophy, music, art, etc.),
> a little science and a little math. You get very few courses in your
> major those two years. The final 2 years of a Bachelors degree are
> made up mostly of your major courses and related courses.

I am ROFL at the difference in perspectives on this.  Ahem . . .  for
those of us who HATED math & science, we would say completely the
opposite -- most universities require *alot* of math & science and a
little "liberal arts" during the first 2 years of university.
Fortunately, the "college of arts & sciences" within my university
permitted me to take courses such as "Food & Nutrition" and "Physical
Geography" to satisfy my science component.  And, I took 2 semesters of
basically "fundamentals of math" (i.e., math for the mathematically
challenged) to meet that stupid math requirement.

I think the basic reasoning for this system is to make up for
deficiencies that might be lurking in your educational background from
American high schools.  The other justification has something to do with
serving as a "review" and providing a "foundation" for your major course
studies in the last 2 years.  To me -- it was a waste of time.  I didn't
care *at all* about math & science by that point.  I already knew the
situation was hopeless, had come to terms with it & would have been far
happier not being bothered with those classes at all (all it did was
mean that I had to forego other interesting classes in my major because
there wasn't time to cram them all into my last 2 years).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Nov  5 19:45:07 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 11:45:07 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New (I hope) Snape thought
In-Reply-To: <3A04CA9A.DD609D6B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20001105114218.027c6ce0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5170

My theory was that Snape is trying to be a mentor to Draco, in order
to stop him from following Daddy Malfoy to Voldy's side, but your
theory makes sense, Amanda.



                                                 -- Dave




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov  5 19:42:00 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:42:00 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Smiths
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001105194200.006db510@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5171

Yaz wrote:

>I don't know "Charmed", but according to IMDb, this was an Aaron Spelling
>production starring Shannen Doherty, Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa Milano as
>three sisters who discover that they have supernatural powers - I assume
>this is the "Charmed" to which you are referring?

The theme tune to that TV show is a cover version of The Smiths' "How Soon
Is Now" by Love Spit Love. 

Yaz also said:

>However, now you've got me wondering what Smiths song could be used as the
>Harry Potter theme...

Me too ... (aaaargh!)

Here are my suggestions for various characters' personal themes...I couldn't
choose just one!

"The Boy With The Thorn In His Side"/"Accept Yourself"/"This Night Has
Opened My Eyes"/"Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" (Harry)

"Ask"/"Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want" (Dudley)

"What She Said"/"Girl Afraid" (Hermione)

"Back To The Old House"/"Barbarism Begins At Home" (The Dursleys)

"The Headmaster Ritual" (Dumbledore)

"Sweet and Tender Hooligan" (Hagrid)

"There Is A Light That Never Goes Out" (The Potters)

"Bigmouth Strikes Again" (Lockhart)

"Panic" (Ginny)

"Half A Person" (Flitwick)

"I Started Something I Couldn't Finish"/"Still Ill" (Voldemort)

"Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" (Madame Maxime)

"I Want The One I Can't Have" (Ron)

"Handsome Devil" (Cedric)

"Miserable Lie" (Snape)

If we extend this game to Morrissey's solo career, perhaps "Ouija Board,
Ouija Board" for Trelawney and "November Spawned A Monster" for Voldemort?

Apologies to any non-Smiths fans out there...

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 19:59:16 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:59:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculations re: Cho, also Pain & Aesthetics
References: <8tlk8m+af69@eGroups.com> <3A00E57E.F184231A@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <00ff01c04762$e0f9ac80$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5172

I know this is three days old, but I liked it so much I had to come back to
it as soon as I had some spare time!

> Or perhaps she might approach him, saying, "I
> don't know if you would be willing to talk to me about it " ....
>
> If they could talk about this, it might be a comfort to Cho.  It would
> probably be exquisitely painful for Harry ...

Peg, has anyone ever accused you of sadism? ;-) It sounds like one heck of a
scene, though. Perhaps someone could write it up for us as a very short
fanfic ... (hint, hint)

> And who knows what the conversation might lead to?  (Scenes
> where your hero is in exquisite pain are GREAT for character development.)

Now that was a let down! A conversation with that much burgeoning tension
leads to nothing more exciting than character development? Darn. I coulda
sworn we were about to get some action right on the outer limits of the ...
bother ... which Virtue wasn't it again?.

> The interesting thing about such a conversation is that it would give us a
> really good look at Cho's character for the first time ....
> [A] number of fans seem to dislike
> Cho--this shows up in fan fiction a lot--and I've speculated in past
> messages that it might be because people are emotionally invested in
> Hermione, whereas they don't quite know whether they should be with Cho.

It's the oldest trick in the books. The more they hurt, the more we love
'em. Take Tolstoy: He brings Anna alive by driving her insane, then killing
her. Take Lawrence: I couldn't make heads or tales of Gerald till D.H. made
a frozen corpse of him. Take Homer, take Hemingway, take any of them. Take
Cho: her tears at the end of GoF made her more real to me than ever before.

The question is why! This bridge of tears from their worlds to ours--do we
cross as perps, as victims or what? Is it voyeurism--do we feel the
connection of a wife beater to his sobbing wife? (There are female parallels
too, I think.) Or is it sympathy--do we cross into a sort of litereary
support group, the entrance price being the communal experience of grief? Or
what?

(The questions aren't meant to be provacative; I'm just puzzled.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 20:03:18 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:03:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT LOTR /Guilt!
References: <95.2958696.273705e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010201c04763$711e00e0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5173

> Do I start
> with the Hobbit, then the trilogy?  Or start with Fellowship??

First the Hobbit, then the trilogy.  BTW, It's not really a trilogy, but one
massive novel, chopped into three convenient blocks.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat


> ~shahara





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Nov  5 20:26:00 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:26:00 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry
References: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com> <3A02D199.2E27E9B8@swbell.net> <047601c046d9$dd84f660$29c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <011201c04766$9e986e40$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5174

> Aren't we forgetting one rather large group of future funeral home fodder
> here? - i.e., the Death Eaters, who will undoudtedly be eating a little of
> their own medicine by the Book Seven finale.  Voldy buys the farm for
> certain (the books are morally pointless if he survives), but also
destined
> for the hangman's noose: Lucius Malfoy, Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle (fils
et
> pere), and Peter Pettigrew - although Dumbledore's comments at the end of
> PoA ("the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's
> life") suggests that Wormtail may yet turn tail away from Lord Voldemort,
> and die defending Harry.  A few other likely candidates - whose faults are
> those of mere weakness rather than total corruption - like Fudge and
> Bagman - may also be headed for the chopping block.
>
> Among the good guys: I predict none of the Marauders will survive - Hagrid
> and Dumbledore will perish (although both will survive until Book Seven) -
> Snape will also sacrifice himself. Harry, Ron, and Hermione all survive.

Good grief, Caius--if you ever need a job, I've got a pal down in Sicily
who'd hire you any day of the week. It's a little messy and job security is
low, but the pay isn't bad and the cop's give you a long holiday is they
catch you. (I should know. I grew up there; they gunned down my neighbor.)

But honestly--Draco? Crabbe & Goyle Junior? Sure they're jerks, but we can't
start slaughtering minors. And all the Marauders, bar none? Heck--can't we
keep at least one, just to sob at the funeral?

Sheeesh!

Baaaaaaaing in disbelief

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Nov  5 20:43:33 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 14:43:33 -0600
Subject: Birth Order & Character Identification
References: <8to6gr+7fpj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A05C675.6E71E4EF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5175

Hi --

Ebony wrote:

> 4)  Observation:  There seems to be a *clear* correlation between
> personality and birth order in many families.  I would posit that the
> correlation can be extended to character identification.

I saw my younger sister this past weekend, and she gave me her
"off-the-cuff" impressions & thoughts of Hermione.  Suffice to say that
there is a very clear-cut argument in my mind that birth order affects
identification with certain characters.  Her perception of Hermione is
"bossy, none of her business what Ron & Harry do with their homework,
know-it-all, insecure need to be at the top of the class, etc."  She
really didn't perceive that Hermione had changed much from PS/SS to
GoF.  Her perception of Hermione, in my mind, is basically that of
Hermione as she was at the beginning of the series.  Needless to say,
she was quite taken aback with *my* perceptions of Hermione.  She and my
husband (also a first-born over-achiever) were a bit fascinated with
this thread.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Nov  5 21:09:46 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:09:46 -0000
Subject: The Smiths
In-Reply-To: <056d01c04756$90331400$0d65073e@merchantbtinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8u4iaq+627l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5176

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Yaz" <Yaz at g...> wrote:
> Me again... I knew once I started posting here I'd never be able to 
stop...
> *grin*
> 
> > JKR's favorites include the Smiths?  If I'm not mistaken, they did 
the
> > theme song for "Charmed," another set of witches brought to the 
screen by
> > WB.  If this sets a precedent, maybe a Smiths song can also become 
the
> > Harry Potter theme.
> 
> I don't know "Charmed", but according to IMDb, this was an Aaron 
Spelling
> production starring Shannen Doherty, Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa 
Milano as
> three sisters who discover that they have supernatural powers - I 
assume
> this is the "Charmed" to which you are referring?
> 
> I can't find any reference to The Smiths music in relation to 
"Charmed", all
> I can find for The Smiths on soundtracks is "I Started Something I 
Couldn't
> Finish" on the "Fever Pitch" soundtrack, "Please, Please, Please, 
Let Me Get
> What I Want" used in both "Never Been Kissed" and "Pretty in Pink" 
and  "How
> Soon Is Now" in both "Out of Bounds" and "The Wedding Singer". 
Original
> Music for "Charmed" is by Tim Truman. Of course, if you're referring 
to a
> completely different "Charmed", all that is irrelevant!
> 
> However, now you've got me wondering what Smiths song could be used 
as the
> Harry Potter theme...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Yaz :-)

The Smiths perform "How Soon is Now" which was the theme to "The 
Craft" (that witch movie starring Neve Campbell) and is currently the 
opening credits song on "Charmed". 

:-) Milz 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Nov  5 21:10:09 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:10:09 -0600
Subject: Thanks!
Message-ID: <3A05CCB0.156D5585@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5177

Hi guys --

Just a great big collective THANK YOU for all the birthday cards &
wishes!  I was out of town yesterday (making our annual trek to
WurstFest (the 10-day tribute to sausage) in New Braunfels -- the
Central Texas version of Oktoberfest -- too darn hot still in Texas in
October, don't you know?) and had a very fun birthday.  It was so
wonderful to then come home & find so many birthday cards & birthday
wishes in my in-box.   Thanks everyone!!

Penny




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Nov  5 21:25:43 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:25:43 -0000
Subject: College
In-Reply-To: <20001105124324.23848.qmail@web208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8u4j8n+ogb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5178

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> --- DrMM <drmm at f...> wrote:
> > The college student responds to the U.S. college
> > system questions. . . .
> > 
> > Another example is my father.  He's an engineer. 
> > He's told me upon 
> > occasion that many of his classmates became
> > engineers so they wouldn't have 
> > to take many English classes.  Then he laughs and
> > says,"But I write more as 
> > an engineer than I ever did when I was in school." 
> > The point being that 
> > you can never know what skills you need when you get
> > into the real world.
> > 
> I really had to chuckle at that one. I used to work as
> an office manager at an engineering consulting company
> and none of the engineers there had very good writing
> skills. At one point the President made them all take
> writing courses, and none of them could understand
> why. At least the President recognized his lack of
> skills and always had one of us check everything he
> wrote. I once refused to send a fax for one of the
> engineers - it had 17 mistakes on 2 pages of text (he
> even started 5 paragraphs on the second page with the
> words "And so, therefore.."!). He didn't see what was
> wrong with what he had written. When I asked on of the
> other engineers, he said they didn't have to take
> English (Communication) as one of their courses. So
> much for the wonderful Canadian education system.
> 
> Sheryll
> 

My college required something similar called a "Core Curriculum": it 
required one science class, one math class, 2 English classes, 2 
History or Political Science, 1 Art or Music, 1 Philosophy, 2 
Theology, 1 Sociology or Psychology. I was a Biology Major. I remember 
a lot of the other Science Majors complaining about the non-science 
courses we had to take. But in retrospect, I'm pretty happy that I 
took those non-science classes when I did. I'm in the medical field 
now. I think that this non-science smattering helps in my dealings 
with non-medical people. Actually, I kind of regret that I didn't take 
more liberal arts classes.

:-) Milz




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Sun Nov  5 22:15:19 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:15:19 -0000
Subject: Hallmark items now available for online purchase
Message-ID: <00ab01c04775$e346fd40$c49a7ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5179

YES, finally.

OK, so I knew this was happening - had an email from Hallmark back in late
August to say that they had finally come to an agreement with Warner to sell
the products online, but at that time all they knew was that they could
start sometime in October.

I've just emailed Hallmark to congratulate them... it's nice when retailers
TELL Warner Bros what they want, and insist on getting it.
Now all I need to do is to convince Hallmark to ship them to the UK.

Nick
----------------
Self-Diagnosed HP Collector
Located on the WRONG side of the pond.




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov  5 22:41:04 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 5 Nov 2000 14:41:04 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups]another question?
Message-ID: <20001105224104.21813.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5180

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001105/61ec56b6/attachment.ksh>

From john at walton.to  Sun Nov  5 23:50:31 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 23:50:31 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hallmark items now available for online purchase
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c04775$e346fd40$c49a7ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B62BA2C7.7ABA%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5181

Nick Mitchell at nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com wrote:

> YES, finally.
> 
> OK, so I knew this was happening - had an email from Hallmark back in late
> August to say that they had finally come to an agreement with Warner to sell
> the products online, but at that time all they knew was that they could
> start sometime in October.
> 
> I've just emailed Hallmark to congratulate them... it's nice when retailers
> TELL Warner Bros what they want, and insist on getting it.
> Now all I need to do is to convince Hallmark to ship them to the UK.
> 
> Nick
> ----------------
> Self-Diagnosed HP Collector
> Located on the WRONG side of the pond.

If anyone in the UK would like things (of the SMALL variety :p) posted to my
US address and carried back from the US when I go home for Christmas, I'm
more than happy to oblige. Email me for my address.

Cheers,

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov  6 00:21:51 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 00:21:51 -0000
Subject: Logos
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEMBCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5182

Hello all

During the chat tonight (chat script posted to
http://www.egroups.com/group/HpforGrownupsChatScripts) we go onto a
discussion of the possibility of designing a logo for the group.
I got a little bored and have created one possible logo that I uploaded into
a new folder in the files section. Cunningly called Logos.
My quickly done logo is findable at:
http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/logos/HP.jpg

Others can add ideas if they wish (particularly aimed at the artistic or
computer design people).

Simon




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  6 00:28:10 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (Merle Jean Micklin)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 18:28:10 CST
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
Message-ID: <F120CSEI5WzJ7D9tVQm0000268a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5183

The flagship store for Marshall Field's, on State Street in Chicago, 
decorates its display windows every year. These displays change every 2-3 
years. There's always a theme -- Cinderella, How the Grinch Stole Christmas, 
etc.

This year, it's Harry Potter. The windows will show scenes from Sorcerer's 
Stone, the 45 ft. tree in the Walnut Room will have HP-themed ornaments, and 
there will be displays and decorations in the first floor (ground floor if 
you're in the UK <grin>) main aisle.

The windows and tree will be up until Jan. 8.

Too cool for words.

ht


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov  6 00:48:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:48:26 -0800
Subject: HB / Snape-Draco / social class / (long) liberal arts
Message-ID: <3A05FFDA.C6755907@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5184

Happy (belated) birthday, Penny. You deserve all the paeans Flying Ford
Anglia and everyone sent your way. November 4 is my brother's birthday
(I did e-mail him birthday greetings) , November 5 is Barry's birthday
(my friend's husband), and November 7 is my birthday. A nice little nest
of Scorpions.

Amanda did present a totally new (to me, anyway) theory of Snape: that
he dislikes Draco and is deliberately screwing him up by favoritism. It
makes a lot of sense and there is no evidence against it.

But in MY world, Snape likes Draco. In my world, Snape likes Lucius
(because Lucius takes the effort to be genial to Snape in a patronizing
way and hint at using his position on Board of Trustees to get Snape a
promotion). In my world, Lucius believes Snape is still a loyal Death
Eater who only pretended to spy for Dumbledore as a way of gaining his
own safety, and Snape believes Lucius's tale that he was only involved
with the Death Eaters because they put a spell on him.  When Harry tells
Dumbledore et alia whom he saw at the Death Eater circle, Snape flinches
when Lucius is mentioned. No one knows why he flinched, or even whether
it was really a flinch or some other reaction, but the only explanation
I've seen offered is that that was the first time that Snape learned
that Lucius is still a Death Eater. On another tentacle, how has Snape
missed hearing Draco boast of 'WHEN You Know Who returns'?

Snape liking Lucius ties into the topic of social class. The wizarding
folk seem to have an intense social class system. Presumably the Malfoys
aren't the ONLY rich, old, landed-gentry family, altho' making THE
villain the ONLY rich, old, landed-gentry family is a tidy piece of
'vulgar Marxism'. And other families range down the social ladder,
Fudges to Potters to Weasleys to Stan Shunpike, with class status a
matter of pedigree, accent, tastes in food, and a whole lot of things
besides how much money you have and how much education you have. But
they seem not to care AT ALL about the Muggle social class ladder: I
believe that Justin Finch-Fletchly's reason for existing is to show that
the wizarding folk don't perceive any different between him and Colin
Creevey the milkman's son. Another piece of 'diversity'.  Altho', in re
diversity, I could go off on a tangent about the lack of 'physically
challenged' students.

But my point (I did have one) is that Lucius's high social standing
causes Snape to feel complimented by Lucius saying things that he would
feel insulted by pretty much anyone else saying.

USAmerican colleges and universities always have distributional
requirements for bachelor's degrees (requirements to 'distribute' your
earned credits among multiple subjects). As has been said, this is
because their Ideal is the Well Rounded Education. An education which is
Not Intended to fit a person for a job. It's called Liberal Arts because
it is topics suitable for free men (and women, but no women were free
when the name was invented), which means not slaves, which means people
who don't have to work for a living. Liberal from the same root as
Liberty.

An education which is not intended to fit a person for a job:  the old
American idea was that business executives would start, not by going to
college, but by getting a job as messenger boy (suitable for people who
left school after 8th grade) or mail room clerk (suitable for people who
left school after 12th grade) and work their way up by learning on the
job. Almost an apprenticeship system. Which is almost what Percy is
doing at MoM: he isn't a mail room clerk, but he isn't an executive
either: he's an Admin Aide writing a report on Cauldron Thickness in
hope of being promoted to Admin Assistant, and maybe someday to Admin
Analyst!

An education which is not intended to fit a person for a job, but rather
to fit a person for citizenship and the examined life. Citizenship:
We're supposed to learn some History (US and our own state) because
'those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it' (the
Congress and Senate's debate on the vote to declare war on Iraq (ten
years ago) featured legislators supporting their position by citing the
Pelopenesian War, WWII Invasion of Poland, the Vietnam War). We're
supposed to learn some Science because we have to vote on initiatives
about nuclear waste disposal, the electricity grid, water pollution,
public health. We're supposed to learn to analyze Literature and other
arts because they think that the arts most starkly display the moral
questions that arise in human life, and that people will be more
prepared to act morally if they think about the matter before the
challenge actually arises. I absolutely agree with the belief that a
person who is going to make a decision would do well to know something
about the decision that he or she is making, but insist that there are
more ways to learn than just going to college, and suspect that nothing
whatsoever is learned from studying Literature the way it was forced
upon me.

(Speaking of Literature: I was much taken aback by the posts in which
people said that engineers (or any kind of professional) should take
English classes so they can learn to write because they WILL have to
write on the job (and also if they want to write a Letter to the Editor
of their newspaper). Because there was never any connection between the
English classes that I was forced to take and the ability to write since
I finished 7th grade (age 12). In the rest of middle school, the English
classes were about finding the 'theme' (actually, the moral) of stories
and after that, the English classes were about searching out Freudian
sexual symbolism in the stories. It was necessary to write essays
(usually 500 to 1000 words) about the theme or sexual symbolism that we
had discovered, but what the teachers demanded from us was the OPPOSITE
of good writing. "Don't ever use a small word when a big word will do.
Don't use the active voice when you could use the passive voice [when
the passive voice could be used]. Never use the first person." were
notes that my teachers wrote on my essays before returning them with low
grades.)

Last year there was this woman who told me that I'm an anti-intellectual
lover of ignorance because I said (and still believe) that employers
should hire people based on their ability, knowledge and skill to do the
job, not on whether they have a college degree. Cooler tempered debaters
suggested that 1) a person who has gotten a college degree has
demonstrated an ability to endure and obey a lot of useless bullshit, an
ability which many employers value higher than ability to do the job,
and 2) a person who has learned such different subjects as the history
of China, Plato's Socrates's philosophy, and astrophysics, has thereby
learned METHODS OF LEARNING that are applicable to MANY DIFFERENT FIELDS
of learning, such as when they have to crash-learn enough about
workman's comp or inventory management or income tax law to analyse the
user requirements for a computer system to help the people do that kind
of work. I had to admit the first point, but on the second, I continued
to insist that there are more ways to learn those subjects than going to
college.

Examined life: who said 'the unexamined life is not worth living"? We're
supposed to learn some History so we can look at our hometown with some
idea of how it used to be and how it turned from that to this. We're
supposed to learn some Science so we can look at the beautiful rainbow
and know that it wasn't applied with a paintbrush. We're supposed to
learn to analyze Literature and the other arts so we can see parallels
between the artwork and our own lives. There is room to debate whether
the Examined Life is worth living, but the people who invented Liberal
Arts didn't think so.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  6 02:02:32 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 02:02:32 -0000
Subject: Ch. 18 Summary Upcoming
In-Reply-To: <3A05FFDA.C6755907@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <8u53fo+oras@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5185

Hello, fellow Potterholics...

Summary for chapter 18/character analysis of Ollivander is 
forthcoming after I re-scan relevant passages in GoF and make sure 
everything is airtight.  I had a *crazy* weekend (16 year old baby 
sis having stayed over and eaten up a lot of my time with Homecoming 
dance shopping), so I have virtually nothing done.  I haven't cooked, 
I haven't dissected this week's readings for my classes, and I 
haven't composed my November newsletters for my students.  To make 
matters worse, I may have to postpone my Harry Potter unit for a 
while.  Our state's standardized test has been moved up the 
calendar.  Grr...

I do have two happier notes:

1)  I've just finished revising a YA novel manuscript... urban 
dystopian angst... my first in that genre.  Plan to enter Delacorte's 
YA contest if I can get two minutes to rub together and a couple of 
beta-readers here.  Also plan to query a slew of agents/editors (the 
agent who's working with me on my adult series does not represent 
juvenile lit).  Prayers, meditations, and general good thoughts would 
be much appreciated.  ;)

2)  There is a very good chance that next year I'll be up for one of 
the top English/Language arts positions in my district.  The English 
department head at our district's top high school phoned Wednesday 
about the possibility of my teaching AP English 12 and Creative 
Writing.  Again, send goodwill this way, please.

I was going to post about the HP merchandise I've just purchased, but 
Voicelady and Heidi have summed up my thoughts eloquently.  I'm the 
proud owner of the snow globe, a calendar, the pen set, and the cool 
long-sleeved Hogwarts tee I raved about some time ago.  Thought about 
buying the trivia game, but I'd rather wait until after Book 7.  I've 
also seen the bed, but it's not my cup of tea.  The table and chairs 
are more appealing IMHO.  I also wish they'd get around to crafting 
authentic HP porcelain dolls.  (If they have, please send me a link!)

Also, I am ordering the Quidditch sheet set for my guest bed.  As I 
told the PoU list this weekend, this H/H shipper is quite happy that 
the pillowcases feature Harry on one side and Hermione on the 
other.  :)

--Ebony




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Nov  6 02:03:55 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 02:03:55 -0000
Subject: Casting News
Message-ID: <8u53ib+gihi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5186

Here are some rumored actors for some of the smaller parts.  Most of 
these kids have never appeared on screen before.  Does anyone have 
any info about them?

Neville - Matt Lewis

Crabbe - Jamie Waylett 

Goyle - Joshua Herdman 

Dean Thomas - Alfie Enoch 

Percy W - Chris Rattling 

There is a newly posted picture of David Bradley (rumored Filch) in 
our Files area: Cast Photos / Rumored Cast / bradley.jpg 

-Jim Flanagan




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  6 02:07:18 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 02:07:18 -0000
Subject: class and racism
In-Reply-To: <3A0552E9.2FE1@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <8u53om+dhqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5187

Hi Everyone - I've navigated my way around the webnanny (!) at work 
and found you all again (albiet it briefly!)

A friend and I discussed this aspect of HP, particually COS, a long 
time ago. I read the pure blood/'mud blood' conflict as about racisim 
rather then class. The finaincial stuff - sure is about class but the 
other I think is about race. for example - in Aust up unitl '67 
'good' Indiginous ppl could be given a 'dog licence' and made honoury 
whites with the entitlements of drinking alchoul and so on (Actually 
I don't know if this extended to voting - one suspects not) I think 
the pureblood stuff is more about that - Neivelle (self described 
'almost a squib') doesn't attracet the same level of hatered as 
Hermoine and his family doesn't seem terribly prominant or rich. I 
wonder if Hermoine was not very talented at Magic if she would 
attract the same level of ememity?

As always more questions and never any answers!

storm

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Elf and Orc <elfnorc at v...> wrote:
> Greetings;  I think class is an issue in the HP books.  Both in 
terms of
> financial class (all the Draco vs Ron comments) and wizard vs
> muggle-born and thus background.  In reading the books I keep 
wondering
> why there isn't (or doesn't seem to be) wizard colleges.  Percy 
leaving
> the equivelant of high school and going straight in to an executive
> government position seems strange.  
> 	I have also heard repeatedly that the internet was another 
large issue
> in the haves vs have nots in the US and it was making the gap 
wider. 
> For me and my friends the internet has become the standard for
> communication and information and it is easy to forget how many 
people
> in the US have never even owned a computer.  I think there are two
> factors going on though, the first being economic the second the
> reluctance to try new things.  I also know several people who could
> easily afford a computer and internet service and just haven't.   I
> wonder if the later (not trying it) is a function of education.  It 
is
> quite interesting how the internet has also opened up the world.  A 
few
> years ago conversing with others in "far away lands" seemed weird 
and
> now it just seems so normal.    
> Tina (BTW I have 2 bachelors and a masters degree)
> 
> Susan McGee wrote:
> > 
> > I think it might be interesting to discuss class issues here
> > and how they play out in the HP books, and how they are different
> > in the U.S. and the U.K. and anywhere else members are at...
> > 
> > It WOULD be interesting to know ses status, education status of 
the
> > members of this list. Could someone construct a poll? Add books
> > read in a year (BEFORE Harry Potter, since I am not reading too 
many
> > new books because I'm too busy REreading HP). Maybe add: 
newspapers
> > read, magazines read....Someone else interested in this, or 
should I
> > do it, or are we being elitist? Someone would have to construct 
the
> > U.K. and other country equivalent to U.S. bachelor's,
> > masters/law/medical, ph.d. etc.
> > 
> > Computers are still expensive in the U.S. More and more people 
have
> > them. But they are still far more expensive than a VCR. A lot of
> > people have email at work, but not a huge amount of time to devote
> > to list serves and egroups. In addition, a separate phone line 
costs
> > money, too.  (I'd be interested to hear what others think). Then,
> > there is some cost associated with internet access. It adds up.
> > Susan
> >




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 02:57:52 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:57:52 EST
Subject: Research Help (medium-long)
Message-ID: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5188

Quin said:
I think that the paralleled couples are Harry-James, Hermione-Sirius, 
Ron-Pettigrew, and Neville-Lupin

Really? I thought of them as Harry-James, Hermione-Lupin, and Ron-Sirius.

Why? The Harry/James comparison is obvious. The first comparison is their 
near-identical appearances, so similar that Harry mistakes his 
past/future/whatever self for his father in the "Dementor's Kiss" chapter of 
Prisoner of Azkaban. They are also renowned for their Quidditch ability. 
Harry was allowed on the team as a first year, and people are constantly 
telling Harry that his father was an extrordinary flyer. "You fly as well as 
your father, Harry" --Sirius. "Your father would have been proud. He was an 
excellent Quidditch player himself." --McGonagall. They also seem to share a 
general dislike of everything that is Snape and have a knack for getting into 
trouble. But who am I trying to convince? I'm sure everyone here would agree 
that Harry and James are a paralleled group.

I chose Hermione/Lupin because Lupin seemed to be so studious, just like 
Hermione. Although Hermione's teaching style is more McGonagall-like than 
Lupin's, they both seemed to be obsessed with studying...Or have I been 
reading too much MWPP fanfic? Oh well. In PoA, they compare Hermione's 
sleep-deprived, stressed-out appearance to the eternally-tired face of 
Professor Lupin. Also, they both had a secret that they faithfully kept 
secret, although they eventually revealed it to their friends. Lupin, 
obviously, had his lycanthropy, and in Hermione's case, the time-turner. 
However, I'd love to hear your ideas on a potential Hermione/Sirius parallel. 
I'd never really thought of that before.

I had a harder time placing Ron, and I eventually settled on Sirius because 
he, like Ron, is the best friend of the Harry/James character. I consider 
James and Sirius to be more like Fred and George, though. McGonagall said in 
the Three Broomsticks that they were practically brothers and the most 
troublesome duo the school had ever seen. And I *can* imagine Fred or George 
being sent to Azkaban! :-) We know James played Quidditch, and I'm fairly 
sure Sirius did, too, even though there's nothing from the books to back up 
the assumption. He must know his broomsticks, though, to know about the 
superiority of the Firebolt, but I suppose nearly everyone in the wizarding 
world knows that (except maybe Hermione). Anyway, I always imagined James and 
Sirius being beaters, just like Fred and George, but JKR evidently decided 
that James was a chaser. Drat! Always fouling up my fanfiction plans... 
::goes off to plot evily, then comes back quickly::

Wait! I'm supposed to be talking about Ron! Well, he and Sirius both share a 
rather quick temper. I don't know. We don't really know that much about 
Sirius, considering that we only saw him for a brief segment in both PoA and 
GoF. I keep trying to insert fanfiction references! Gah, another reason why I 
can't wait for "Order of the Phoenix".

Then of course, last and *certainly* least of the Marauders, we have Peter 
Pettigrew. Who do I think he relates to? Colin Creevy. He and Colin were both 
drawn to the most powerful wizards their age; in Peter's case, James and 
Sirius, and in Colin's case, Harry. I think someday Colin is going to snap 
from Harry constantly ignoring his efforts. Harry constantly sluffs him off 
like an old coat, even though Colin puts such an effort into being Harry's 
friend. He brings (well, *attempts* to bring) food to Harry in the hospital 
wing in CoS, tries to get an autographed photo to prove to his father that he 
*met* Harry, and even ropes Dennis into trying to bewitch the "Support Cedric 
Diggory" badges. You never know, he may get into the loop with the 
"triumverate", just as Pettigrew became an animagus with James and Sirius. 
Colin could be dangerously close to the dark side of the force --sorry, got 
carried away there-- to the dark side, willing to hide in the shadow of the 
strongest wizard around.

I strongly disagree with your comparison of Ron and Pettigrew. Although he 
acted like an insufferable git for a lot of the school year, I doubt that he 
will truly betray Harry to the dark side, no matter how dwarfed he feels in 
comparison with Harry's accomplishments. What were your reasons for pairing 
the two?

Thoughts, anyone?

Ellie Rosenthal
http://www.geocities.com/cornishpixie7/harryp/



From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Nov  6 03:09:43 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:09:43 -0500
Subject: Marauder parallels
References: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005901c0479f$038fc5e0$2c8fd6ce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5189

From: <Ellimist15 at aol.com>


> Quin said:
> I think that the paralleled couples are Harry-James, Hermione-Sirius,
> Ron-Pettigrew, and Neville-Lupin
>
> Really? I thought of them as Harry-James, Hermione-Lupin, and Ron-Sirius.

I'm with you Ellie.  I meant to reply to this when it was first posted...but
forgot after going through another 35 posts...

I don't see a Hermione - Sirius parrallel in the least...Hermione - Lupin
absolutely as Ellie has so eloquently posted.  They are the academics.

Ron - Sirius for their tempers and spirit and best friend capacity to
James - Harry.

Pettigrew is such a wormy guy, I would think Neville if anyone, although
that would be an insult to Neville and as we found out more about Neville in
GoF..it might be unbelievable as well.

Can't muster the intellectual energy to defend these parallels at the
moment...maybe tomorrow.

carole






From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov  6 03:18:42 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:18:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP at Marshall Field's!
References: <F120CSEI5WzJ7D9tVQm0000268a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A062312.D38E8E64@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5190

You will, of course, take pictures for those of us who can't get out of Texas
(no matter how hard they try...)?

--Amanda

Merle Jean Micklin wrote:

> The flagship store for Marshall Field's, on State Street in Chicago,
> decorates its display windows every year. These displays change every 2-3
> years. There's always a theme -- Cinderella, How the Grinch Stole Christmas,
> etc.
>
> This year, it's Harry Potter. The windows will show scenes from Sorcerer's
> Stone, the 45 ft. tree in the Walnut Room will have HP-themed ornaments, and
> there will be displays and decorations in the first floor (ground floor if
> you're in the UK <grin>) main aisle.
>
> The windows and tree will be up until Jan. 8.
>
> Too cool for words.
>
> ht
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 03:27:45 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:27:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Research Help (medium-long)
References: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A062531.9CD7189F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5191

Hi --

Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:

> Quin said:
> I think that the paralleled couples are Harry-James, Hermione-Sirius,
> Ron-Pettigrew, and Neville-Lupin
>
> Really? I thought of them as Harry-James, Hermione-Lupin, and
> Ron-Sirius.

I replied to Quinn personally already but I'll chime in a bit here too.

Like Ellie, I agree completely with the Harry-James comparisons.  That
one is pretty much a no-brainer in my mind.

Unlike Ellie though, I think the Hermione-Sirius parallel is spot on.
If we think about what we know about Sirius, the one thing we know
indisputably is that James Potter trusted Sirius beyond all his other
friends, and we know that loyalty was of utmost importance to Sirius.
Hermione has been the most loyal of Harry's friends.  The strong loyalty
displayed by both characters supports this parallel.  But, there's also
the issue of intellect.  I don't dispute the notion that Lupin is an
intellectual and very bright.  But, Sirius and  James are the ones cited
as the brightest students in their class.  I think Lupin was a strong
student and is obviously quite bright to go on to be a respected &
effective teacher.  But, it may well be that Sirius' intellect was
sharper -- it would seem so from what McGonagall said in the Three
Broomsticks.

As for making a parallel between Ron & Sirius, yes, alot of fanfic
authors (including Carole & me) have attributed a quick, hot temper to
Sirius.  But, really, if you step back & think about it -- Sirius was
hot-tempered in PoA with good reason.  We don't see so much of that in
GoF I don't think.  He is rash in GoF, but not necessarily hot-tempered.

Moving on to Neville & Lupin -- I had never really thought of this
parallel before. But, there are good arguments to be made I think.  They
are both somewhat "behind the scenes" kind of guys.  They both have an
inner core of strength that they don't display to just anyone.  They can
both draw on their inner strength when needed and they're both good and
loyal friends.  I like this particular parallel myself.

Now -- Ron and Pettigrew.  I think we don't know enough yet -- not
really.  I *can* make arguments to support this parallel but those
arguments are all largely conjectural, not necessarily based on strong
evidence from the canon.  Ahem . . . at the risk of re-starting the Ron
debates, I will say that Pettigrew must have been very insecure and
well. . . . we all know what I think about Ron in that regard.  But,
OTOH, I don't think Ron has near the problems that Pettigrew seems to
have had from what limited amount we know.  He is painted as rather a
tag-along, hanger-on sort of kid.  Ron is definitely not that sort of
person.  He's an equal member of the Trio.  I think the capacity for
betrayal is there but .... it sure remains to be seen whether Ron will
succumb to that sort of pressure.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov  6 03:39:36 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:39:36 -0800
Subject: Muggle Canary Creams
Message-ID: <3A0627F8.3074543A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5192

I had an idea (rare event!) during today's chat!

catlady_de_los_angeles says,
How can we do Muggle Canary Creams?

Inside the cream candy (which must be large to have so much room inside
it) is a packet which contains a Mask of a canary head

You will not be surprised by unexpectedly turning into a giant canary,
but you can surprise your more co-operative companions by putting on the
mask and saying Tweet Tweet

Altho', it might be MORE SURPRISING if there were a variety of different
animal (or other) masks instead of all canaries

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 03:32:43 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 21:32:43 -0600
Subject: Merchandise
References: <8u53fo+oras@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A06265B.CC96B13E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5193

Hi --

Ebony wrote:

> Also, I am ordering the Quidditch sheet set for my guest bed.  As I
> told the PoU list this weekend, this H/H shipper is quite happy that
> the pillowcases feature Harry on one side and Hermione on the
> other.  :)

I simply *must* have these!  Are these through Warner Bros.?  I haven't
seen them in my Warner Bros. store.  I assume they're not through
Hallmark as sheets seems a bit odd for Hallmark to be marketing.  <g>

Ebony forgot to note, as she did on the PoU list, that it sure seems
that Warner Bros (and Hallmark) are H/H shippers -- Ron is hardly to be
seen in the merchandise really.  And, there are several items that are
very nice for the H/H shippers -- the sheets that Ebony mentioned
(<vbg>), the H/H bookends, the H & H Dept 56 boxes, the H & H pewter
ornaments.  I'm in H/H merchandise heaven!!!!

I received 3 pewter ornaments (H, H & Dumbledore), several tin
bookmarks, the Gringotts bank, the Fat Lady bookends, the painted glass
Harry with Hedwig ornament and the collector's Sorcerer's Stone edition
for my birthday.  Very happy.  I think I will buy myself the H & H
bookends and the sheets now.  The addiction continues .  . . .

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From recla at magick.net  Mon Nov  6 04:07:02 2000
From: recla at magick.net (Prof.  Dumbledore)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 04:07:02 -0000
Subject: HP Stuff at Fred Meyer Store
Message-ID: <8u5ap6+p50v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5194

While Diann and I were picking up the weekly provisions, we found a 
table full of Harry Potter Stuff.  It included several diary books 
with covers of Hogworts, Hedwig and a couple others.  There were 
several bookmarks, Gringots, mirror of erised, Fluffy, Hedwig, 
sorting hat, etc.  Plus a very nice journal with two pages of 
stickers you could put in book or anywhere else.  Plus a stationary 
set with cards and envelopes having Hogworts on them.

Fred Meyer is a department store/grocery store, now part of the 
Krogers chain.  They are common in California and the Northwest.

Prices ranged from $3.99 to $12.99 

D&D




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Mon Nov  6 04:21:11 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 23:21:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's moot now, anyway . . .
References: <3A038F36.9A22FA75@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A0631B7.1654D343@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5195



Peg Kerr wrote:

> since Richard Harris has apparently been signed for Dumbledore, but I
> really, really would have liked to have seen Benjamin Whitrow in the
> part, who played Mr. Bennet in A&E's Pride and Prejudice.  Here is a
> picture of him looking blue-eyed and twinkley:
>
> http://www.homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/mr-benn.jpg
>

Funny you should mention that; I was watching the video this weekend and had
the same thought.   I also think that David Bamber, who did a delightful
turn as Mr. Collins in that same film, would make a wonderful Cornelius
Fudge (if the film series ever gets that far).

drpam




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 05:26:33 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:26:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR on Desert Island Discs (I)
Message-ID: <20001106052633.3322.qmail@web206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5196

Neil,

Thanks for posting the bit on her radio appearance and
interview. Much appreciated.

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov  6 05:57:32 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 05:57:32 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting News
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001106055732.0071efa8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5197

Jim wrote:

Here are some rumored actors for some of the smaller parts.  Most of 
>these kids have never appeared on screen before.  Does anyone have 
>any info about them?

>Neville - Matt Lewis
>
>Crabbe - Jamie Waylett 
>
>Goyle - Joshua Herdman 
>
>Dean Thomas - Alfie Enoch 
>
>Percy W - Chris Rattling 

***

Chris Rattling is a Norwich schoolboy with no professional acting
experience.  It's hard to find info on kids who haven't acted before...

I'll just mention a few other rumours that I've seen on my travels.  Some of
these were mentioned on fan sites, so they may be inaccurate...

Sean Biggerstaff - Oliver Wood (has acted in Alan Rickman's film The Winter
Guest.  Rickman suggested him) - this one seems pretty certain, as he's been
interviewed about it.  Hard to find a picture of him.

Sir Derek Jacobi - Ollivander

Julie Walters - Molly Weasley (she said herself, in a TV interview, that
she's been approached)

Warwick Davis - goblin banker (his main fan site says he's playing this part
as well as Flitwick)

Charlie Pace - Neville (Norman Pace, the comedian, said that his son had
been called back for a second audition for this part... could be wishful
parental thinking though; Matt Lewis seems a bit more definite)

BTW, I think Zoe Wannamaker is a great choice for Hooch.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 06:07:21 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 06:07:21 -0000
Subject: cats OT, ot, ot
In-Reply-To: <8u4avl+h1vc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u5hqp+mv25@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5198

> 
> Off to clean house, since I don't have a house-elf and my cats 
> absolutely refuse to help me out.
> 
> Trina

I hear those cats a'comin
They're comin' across the floor
Wearing those old fur coats
weighing 16 pounds or more...

Those cats they lie there sleeping
they're ungrateful too
Those cats just lie there sleeping
What can a poor boy do......

If I could quit this factory
If I didn't have those beasts
I'd buy myself some fancy clothes
and hang out with artistes

but those cats just lie there sleeping
they're ungrateful, too
those cats just lie there sleeping
what can a poor boy do




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 06:17:47 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 06:17:47 -0000
Subject: OT LOTR (was The Death of Harry)
In-Reply-To: <00c801c04755$0b6478a0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8u5ieb+gfl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5199

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforths_Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> > ...50 pages in and really
> > enjoying it...
> 
> Hurrah! There are certain experiences--like walking in the 
moonlight,
> Hungarian cooking, your first kiss, or seeing the sun rise over the
> Alps--that add that particular tinge to our qualia, make it a treat 
to be a
> human. Reading Tolkein is one of those experiences.
> 

Yes, yes, yes! Enjoy one of life's most delightful moments.
Watching the sunset on the Aegean Sea or Lake Michigan.
The first time your child throws his/her arms around you and 
says "I love you".
Accessing the internet for the first time (when it was very difficult)





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 06:21:12 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 06:21:12 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <00df01c0474c$77ca3100$fddd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8u5iko+8ctl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5200

Well, based on JKR's recommendations, and those of this
list, I bought and have read Pullman. 

I think it's awful. gloomy, depressing, dense

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 06:29:32 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 06:29:32 -0000
Subject: HB / Snape-Draco / social class / (long) liberal arts
In-Reply-To: <3A05FFDA.C6755907@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <8u5j4c+ts03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5201

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> (Speaking of Literature: I was much taken aback by the posts in 
which
> people said that engineers (or any kind of professional) should take
> English classes so they can learn to write because they WILL have to
> write on the job (and also if they want to write a Letter to the 
Editor
> of their newspaper). Because there was never any connection between 
the
> English classes that I was forced to take and the ability to write 
since
> I finished 7th grade (age 12). In the rest of middle school, the 
English
> classes were about finding the 'theme' (actually, the moral) of 
stories
> and after that, the English classes were about searching out 
Freudian
> sexual symbolism in the stories. It was necessary to write essays
> (usually 500 to 1000 words) about the theme or sexual symbolism 
that we
> had discovered, but what the teachers demanded from us was the 
OPPOSITE
> of good writing. "Don't ever use a small word when a big word will 
do.
> Don't use the active voice when you could use the passive voice 
[when
> the passive voice could be used]. Never use the first person." were
> notes that my teachers wrote on my essays before returning them 
with low
> grades.)

Goodness, that is totally true. I am struck by those with
an academic education who canNOT write, who go on and on with
big words that no one can understand, who use the passive voice 
constantly, (with NO agent) who never say *I*, whose writing
is inaccessible to 95% of the population......







> 
> Last year there was this woman who told me that I'm an anti-
intellectual
> lover of ignorance because I said (and still believe) that employers
> should hire people based on their ability, knowledge and skill to 
do the
> job, not on whether they have a college degree. Cooler tempered 
debaters
> suggested that 1) a person who has gotten a college degree has
> demonstrated an ability to endure and obey a lot of useless 
bullshit, an
> ability which many employers value higher than ability to do the 
job,
> and 2) a person who has learned such different subjects as the 
history
> of China, Plato's Socrates's philosophy, and astrophysics, has 
thereby
> learned METHODS OF LEARNING that are applicable to MANY DIFFERENT 
FIELDS
> of learning, such as when they have to crash-learn enough about
> workman's comp or inventory management or income tax law to analyse 
the
> user requirements for a computer system to help the people do that 
kind
> of work. I had to admit the first point, but on the second, I 
continued
> to insist that there are more ways to learn those subjects than 
going to
> college.
> 


Absolutely. Agreed.
> Examined life: who said 'the unexamined life is not worth living"? 
We're
> supposed to learn some History so we can look at our hometown with 
some
> idea of how it used to be and how it turned from that to this. We're
> supposed to learn some Science so we can look at the beautiful 
rainbow
> and know that it wasn't applied with a paintbrush. We're supposed to
> learn to analyze Literature and the other arts so we can see 
parallels
> between the artwork and our own lives. There is room to debate 
whether
> the Examined Life is worth living, but the people who invented 
Liberal
> Arts didn't think so.
> 
> --
>           /\ /\
>            + +     Mews and views
>          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston
> 
>                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
>                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
>                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
>                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 06:39:05 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:39:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Canary Creams
Message-ID: <20001106063905.6668.qmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5202


--- Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> I had an idea (rare event!) during today's chat!
> 
> catlady_de_los_angeles says,
> How can we do Muggle Canary Creams?
> 
> Inside the cream candy (which must be large to have
> so much room inside
> it) is a packet which contains a Mask of a canary
> head
> 
>           /\ /\
>            + +     Mews and views
>          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

I nearly passed over this post in my hurry to catch on
everything posted today. My husband makes chocolates,
and something just clicked in my mind (is that a bad
thing?). If the mask were paper it could be enclosed
in plastic (to prevent it getting soggy) then placed
in the center of a cream filled chocolate egg. The egg
molds come in a lot of various sizes (I think we have
a couple different ones here), so I think a mask could
fit into one of them. I'd ask Andy how feasible this
is, but he's in bed - I'm the only one who sets my own
work hours (and I'm supposed to be researching now,
not reading e-mail, oh, well). I keep thinking
lemon-flavoured cream filling, I suspect because it's
yellow. Any other flavour suggestions?

Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 06:55:47 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 06:55:47 -0000
Subject: under the protection of Albus Dumbledore
Message-ID: <8u5klj+u46a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5203

I have been listening to the tapes of the GofF.....as one who is
a HP addict.


There is a constantly recurrent theme --- under the protection
of Albus Dumbledore...

Lord Voldemort was taking over..the only safe place was at
Hogwarts..

Voldemort himself says that he couldn't touch Harry because he
was under the protection of AB

So..what is that about?

Why did Dumbledore send Harry to the Dursleys rather than keeping him 
himself? Too busy? Did he know the Dursleys were abusive (aside from
the ancient magic that protected Harry while he was with birth
relatives? (a question for JKR)

Is Dumbledore's power and protection tied up with spells around
Hogwarts? (as in Charles DeLint's Moonheart) What is HIS connection 
with Godric Gryffindor? 

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 07:16:25 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 07:16:25 -0000
Subject: neville's story
Message-ID: <8u5ls9+sltp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5204

We had a thread a while back about why few knew that Lord
Voldemort had once been Tom Riddle at Hogwarts.

What is more unbelievable is that none of his classmates
knew Neville's parents' story.

In GoF we learn that Frank Longbottom was an Auror and
he had his wife were tortured with the Cruciatus curse
by the Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr. to find the
whereabouts of L.V. We hear that the wizard/witch world
was enraged (because they thought they were safe after the demise of 
L.V). We find out that Frank and his wife are insane and 
don't know Neville and that Neville is raised by his grandmother
and visits them periodically.

What strains credulity is that no one told Ron Weasley about this..
not his parents or his brothers...we hear that the Longbottoms
were popular...etc..

No one has told Ron not to question neville?

Dumbledore tells harry and then tells him not to question neville,
but this should have been something that was common knowledge...

Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
use of L.V.s name..

???

Susan




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov  6 07:40:00 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 07:40:00 -0000
Subject: how many people live in southeastern Michigan?
In-Reply-To: <3A055065.26C2@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <8u5n8g+31df@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5205

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Elf and Orc <elfnorc at v...> wrote:
> Greetings;  I live in Lansing which is not far away

> > How many people are in Ann Arbor/southeastern Michigan?
> > We could easily have a gathering......

I'm just south of Grand Rapids. Not southeast Michigan, but hey, we 
have freeways.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov  6 07:54:17 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 07:54:17 -0000
Subject: day by day calendar: CoS
Message-ID: <8u5o39+ihka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5206

I've just completed the first of four day-by-day calendars of the 
stories. This one covers July 1992 through July 1993 (Chamber of 
Secrets). Why start there? Becasuse I was wondering how many weeks 
Hermione spent in the hospital in that book, and it just sort of 
snowballed from there. The dates given are all either stated 
specifically or can be deduced with a high degree of certainty from 
comments made (e.g. "two weeks after Dumbledore left...").

This calendar has been uploaded to the Lexicon (link below), 
accessible by way of the Timeline link on the navigation menu. The 
link is a bit thrown together for now until I redesign the entire 
Timeline homepage.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov  6 08:25:42 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 08:25:42 -0000
Subject: HP trivia game
Message-ID: <8u5pu6+ijg7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5207

Just thought it was worth a mention:

My family sat down to play the HP Trivia Game tonight and we had a 
WONDERFUL time. It's a fantastic game, with lots of little 
embellishments that give the whole thing the flavor of the books. My 
12-year-old daughter won, but my 8-year-old was close on her heels 
and would have won if he hadn't ended up in the hospital wing 
unexpectedly when he was in his common room, waiting to answer the 
final question. 

The questions are tough (e.g. What's displayed in Ollivander's front 
window?), but you can ask to be given multiple choices to answer 
from, which really helps. You don't get as big a reward that way, but 
on the other hand you don't get a curse thrown at you.

My kids have made me promise that we play the trivia game again 
tomorrow night. Now I want to get that Quidditch card game too. Maybe 
next week. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 10:07:47 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:07:47 -0000
Subject: HP Sorcerer's Stone ISBN:043920352X
Message-ID: <8u5vtj+dch0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5208

Hi all

The postman delivered a package to me this morning... it was The 
Book - that's the GOLD book. 

Oh it is lovely... and the illustration of Harry at the Dursleys is 
great - didn't know Jo could draw so well.

Don't suppose anyone knows how large the print run was on this book?
As it's a special edition, it can't be as big as the main books print 
run - but I do expect it to be a lot more than a books usual print 
run, as the publisher must expect to sell quite a few in the run up 
to Christmas.

--- Desert Island Discs ---

I have Jo's interview on tape... do you want me to convert it to 
RealAudio? (might have to strip out some of the music, else it will 
be a huge file - seeing that the interview must be close to 45 mins 
in length).


Nick

--- Links ---
If you have no idea of which book I am talking about...
Details are at: www.doomspell.co.uk
BooksAMillion supplies the UK using DHL WorldMail, my prefered 
carrier.






From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 10:10:14 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:10:14 -0000
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
In-Reply-To: <3A062312.D38E8E64@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u6026+tbn9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5209

Oh cool... I'm in Chicago for a day in a few weeks time (on the 17th 
in fact).  Will have to persuade my boss to let me take a brief 
shopping trip at Marshall Field's.

Nick





From managirl19 at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 11:40:00 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 06:40:00 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder parallels
Message-ID: <e.47ed399.2737f290@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5210

In a message dated 11/5/2000 10:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
lrcjestes at msn.com writes:

> Pettigrew is such a wormy guy, I would think Neville if anyone, although
>  that would be an insult to Neville and as we found out more about Neville 
in
>  GoF..it might be unbelievable as well.

What about Colin Crevy? I was reading a fic where he turned out to have 
Vldemorts all evil powers transported to him... alright, that's not the pont, 
but it makes sense in a way. He hero worships Harry.. hmmm...

Also, I think Ron is more like Sirius to to more violent tendencies, and 
quick to get angry... And Hermione as Lupin, because in a way, she's apart 
from the others because she's a girl like Lupin was a werewolf.  

Although please don't attack me for comparing girls to werewolves *g*

--------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Allegria Winselvern</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">
FanFiction.net</A>
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Nov  6 11:55:53 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 06:55:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP trivia game
References: <8u5pu6+ijg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007901c047e8$84c28820$5843ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5211


> Just thought it was worth a mention:
>
> My family sat down to play the HP Trivia Game tonight and we had a
> WONDERFUL time. It's a fantastic game, with lots of little
> embellishments that give the whole thing the flavor of the books. My
> 12-year-old daughter won, but my 8-year-old was close on her heels
> and would have won if he hadn't ended up in the hospital wing
> unexpectedly when he was in his common room, waiting to answer the
> final question.
>
> The questions are tough (e.g. What's displayed in Ollivander's front
> window?), but you can ask to be given multiple choices to answer
> from, which really helps. You don't get as big a reward that way, but
> on the other hand you don't get a curse thrown at you.

Ooooooo, I'm so glad to hear that.  My family has a date to play HP Trivia
with another family next Saturday night.  I was so excited to find another
HP fanatic family in the area.  I'm not sure they realize just how addicted
I am....hopefully they won't think I'm too odd....maybe I should preface the
evening with "I'm Carole and I'm an HPaholic"

carole






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 12:10:01 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:10:01 +0100
Subject: PoU and Draco Dormiens in German!
References: <8u6026+tbn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006501c047ea$7de8c4e0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5212

I assume the people on the PoU list already know this--but did you guys know
that PoU and DD have been translated into German?  The same crew that
coordinated their own translation of GoF before the official Carlsen edition
beached in October are now working their way through our favorite fanfics.

I've know idea what to make of the legality of it all, but they're an
interesting bunch of people.
Check them out at:
http://www.sitescout.de/cgi-bin/freihobby/out.cgi?id=palle04&url=http%3a%2f%
2fwww.harry-auf-deutsch.de%2f

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Mon Nov  6 12:25:42 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:25:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] neville's story
References: <8u5ls9+sltp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20001106132542.1FEC.2.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5213

On 06.11.2000 at 07:16:25 Susan McGee wrote:

>What strains credulity is that no one told Ron Weasley about this..
>not his parents or his brothers...we hear that the Longbottoms
>were popular...etc..

What happened to the Longbottoms may be well known throughout the
wizarding community, but it was certainly nothing that would be
discussed with kids of Ron's age, or even Fred and George's. 

>No one has told Ron not to question neville?

Why would anybody tell Ron that? He didn't know there was anything
worth questioning Neville about, and such an admonition would only
have roused his curiosity. 

>Dumbledore tells harry and then tells him not to question neville,
>but this should have been something that was common knowledge...

Not among Neville's age group. Dumbledore only tells Harry after the
subject had come to Harry's attention. The kids never discuss their
parents. I don't think kids their age would. Ron has only a vague
idea of what his father does, isn't keen to find out more, is even
bored and stops listening when Arthur tells his family about his
work. Hermione's parents are dentists, and that's about all we know
about them. His fellow students believed Neville's parents to be
dead, but he is probably not the only orphan in his generation. He
wouldn't necessarily be questioned about their death, unless there is
something sensational about it. I didn't get the feeling that what
happened to the Longbottoms was as notorious as the fate of the
Potters, probably because they are not really dead. 

>Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
>the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
>use of L.V.s name..

That's not really a contradiction. For most of the wizarding world
Voldemort's reign is over. Let's forget about it as fast as we can.
Let's not even mention his name.  And if you can't name him it's
harder to ask questions about him. But the events are still too
recent for people of Harry's and Ron's age not to know anything about
them.

Greetings
Christina


"A room without books is like a body without a soul." -Cicero

Check out our book and movie reviews at
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Mon Nov  6 12:25:42 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:25:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder parallels
References: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com> <005901c0479f$038fc5e0$2c8fd6ce@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <Q.20001106132542.1F34.3.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5214

On 05.11.2000 at 22:09:43 lrcjestes wrote:
>Hermione -
>Lupin
>absolutely as Ellie has so eloquently posted.  They are the
>academics.

Also they both didn't take going to Hogwarts for granted. Hermione
because she didn't know she was a witch and Lupin because a werewolf
wouldn't normally have been tolerated there. Both found in Hogwarts a
place where they belonged and made friends. Hermione breaks rules
when she sees a good reason to do so, but frowns on Harry's and Ron's
more frivolous activities. From what McGonagall said at the Three
Broomsticks in PoA I gathered that Lupin wasn't part of James' and
Sirius' pranks, or at least wasn't spotted as a troublemaker like the
other two. Both Hermione and Lupin seem more level-headed than Ron or
Sirius. 

>Pettigrew is such a wormy guy, I would think Neville if anyone,
>although
>that would be an insult to Neville and as we found out more about
>Neville in
>GoF..it might be unbelievable as well.

I can't really back that up with hard facts from the book, but I
picture Peter at school somewhat like Neville: shy, insecure unable
to shine in most classes either academically or by special magical
powers, with a 'Kick Me'-sign permanently attached to his back. If
James was like Harry he would have been nice to Peter in an
absent-minded sort of way, sticking up for him when he happened to
notice that other students tortured him. But Peter wasn't really a
member of James' circle as Neville doesn't really belong to the
triad. 

But Neville had first Lupin and then the false Moody to make him feel
good about himself and boost his self-esteem, while Peter chose to
attach himself to the biggest bully on the playground so the others
wouldn't dare to trample him anymore. 

Greetings
Christina
You can't make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on
your
butt. And who wants to leave butt prints in the sands of time?

The site for bookworms and movienuts: http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Mon Nov  6 12:48:49 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:48:49 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoU and Draco Dormiens in German!
References: <8u6026+tbn9@eGroups.com> <006501c047ea$7de8c4e0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <Q.20001106134849.2556.5.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5215

Hope they are doing a better job than the official translator of the
Harry Potter books.
He changed some of the names for no good reason and sticks to the
original text like super-glue.

Greetings
Christina

On 06.11.2000 at 13:10:01 Aberforths_Goat wrote:
>I assume the people on the PoU list already know this--but did you
>guys know
>that PoU and DD have been translated into German?  The same crew that
>coordinated their own translation of GoF before the official Carlsen
>edition
>beached in October are now working their way through our favorite
>fanfics.
>
>I've know idea what to make of the legality of it all, but they're an
>interesting bunch of people.
>Check them out at:
>http://www.sitescout.de/cgi-bin/freihobby/out.cgi?id=palle04&url=http
>%3a%2f%
>2fwww.harry-auf-deutsch.de%2f
>
>Baaaaaa!
>
>Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
>http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat
>

You can't make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on
your butt. And who wants to leave butt prints in the sands of time?

The site for bookworms and movienuts: http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov  6 12:56:43 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:56:43 -0000
Subject: Gold book/Desert Island Discs recording
In-Reply-To: <8u5vtj+dch0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u69qb+jh4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5216

Nick wrote:

> Oh it is lovely... and the illustration of Harry at the Dursleys is 
> great - didn't know Jo could draw so well.
> 
> Don't suppose anyone knows how large the print run was on this book?

Oooh, this sounds interesting and I've never heard of it.  Are all 
the illustrations by the author?  I'd better check it out. 
 
> --- Desert Island Discs ---
> 
> I have Jo's interview on tape... do you want me to convert it to 
> RealAudio? (might have to strip out some of the music, else it will 
> be a huge file - seeing that the interview must be close to 45 mins 
> in length).

If you could do that, it would be cool.  I also have it taped, but 
don't have the technology to save it as RealAudio.  JKR said quite a 
bit other than the snippets I posted earlier, and it is worth hearing 
because her sense of humour comes across very strongly. There's 
probably about 20-25 minutes of chat and about 20 mins of music.

Neil





From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Mon Nov  6 13:47:08 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laurie )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:47:08 -0000
Subject: how many people live in southeastern Michigan?
In-Reply-To: <8u2n7q+lfiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6cos+hnen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5217

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, r.yoo at s... wrote:
> 
> How many people are in Ann Arbor/southeastern Michigan?
> 
> We could easily have a gathering......
> 
> Susan

I live in Ypsilanti. 

Laurie 




From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Mon Nov  6 13:49:35 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laurie )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:49:35 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u5iko+8ctl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6ctf+2hos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5218

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Well, based on JKR's recommendations, and those of this
> list, I bought and have read Pullman. 
> 
> I think it's awful. gloomy, depressing, dense
> 
> Susan


I totally agree! I was expecting something completely different. (and 
I bought mine in HARDCOVER!! - whine!)

Laurie




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov  6 14:04:18 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:04:18 -0000
Subject: Marauder parallels
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEMJCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5219

Penny wrote: "I don't dispute the notion that Lupin is an intellectual and
very bright.  But, Sirius and  James are the ones cited as the brightest
students in their class.  I think Lupin was a strong student and is
obviously quite bright to go on to be a respected & effective teacher.  But,
it may well be that Sirius' intellect was sharper -- it would seem so from
what McGonagall said in the Three Broomsticks."

Sirius and James, from my impression of the statements made, are more
outgoing than Lupin but I would argue about the more intelligent comment.
The only person I can remember talking about how clever Sirius and James are
is Lupin, and he is hardly likely to mention himself as well (he is too
modest).


Penny wrote: "Like Ellie, I agree completely with the Harry-James
comparisons.  That one is pretty much a no-brainer in my mind."

What would happen if we stepped back from the 'no brainer' and instead
paired people up differently?

We are given the impression that James and Sirius trusted each other, but I
would be amazed if they did not, from time to time, fall out.

What about Harry - Lupin?
Both seem to expect to be on their own and are then amazed when people look
up to them and trust them.
Both have had difficult childhoods, at the heart of which is an amazing
event (Harry defeating Voldemort and Lupin becoming a werewolf) that neither
had any real control over (I have the impression that werewolf's are rare in
the UK - especially educated ones).
Both seem keen to share but seem to have something hold them back, again a
reflection on their pasts.

Having done this we get Hermione - Sirius and Ron - James or Hermione -
James and Ron - Sirius. Ellie covered Ron - Sirius and Penny covered
Hermione - Sirius so I will not comment on either of those pairings here.

Hermione - James:
Both are portrayed as being fairly responsible and it is the influence of
Ron and Sirius respectively that has made them loosen up and in James' case
become a practical joker.
Good grades.
And of course there is the often seen/mentioned loyalty to Ron/Sirius and
also to Harry/Lupin.

Ron - James:
Loyalty to Harry and Hermione / Sirius and Lupin.
Intelligence - James obviously showed it (Lupin's comment and he became head
boy), Ron shows it less but does have 2 head boys in the family and is great
at chess.


What about Harry - Sirius?
Loyalty (cannot be bothered to expand on this)
Both get in trouble for things they have not done - Harry in GoF and Sirius
over aiding Voldemort.

Having done this we get Hermione - Lupin and Ron - James or Hermione - James
and Ron - Lupin. Carole covered Hermione - Lupin so I will not comment on
that pairing here. I have covered Ron - James and Hermione - James above so
that leaves me:

Ron - Lupin:
Ron was prepared to think the worst of Harry in GoF, Lupin about Sirius.
Both maybe had good reason to do so.
Loyalty (getting bored of that word yet?)
Intelligence.


Basically I seem to get the impression that we are pairing up people who
have many similarities and I could find more reasons for the pairings if I
wished to!

Simon (just seeing what happens if we ignore the obvious!)




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Nov  6 14:06:52 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:06:52 -0500
Subject: New must read fanfic
References: <8u6cos+hnen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002901c047fa$d2b44700$1243ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5220

You all have got to go read "The fic that must not be named"  by Moon.  Its
a Mary Sue parody.  I laughed from the first line to the last.  It is a
scream! If you need a pick me up for a monday morning read this fic.  But
beware if coworkers will think you odd by laughing out loud at your computer
monitor!!!

Here is the link (I hope this works):

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=102293

its way too funny

later
carole






From dorband at uwp.edu  Mon Nov  6 14:30:11 2000
From: dorband at uwp.edu (Brian  Dorband)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:30:11 -0000
Subject: OT LOTR (was The Death of Harry)
In-Reply-To: <003e01c0471e$5b327bc0$0e40073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8u6f9j+fdbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5221

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
...please tell me (without being specific *g*) that 
there's a lot
> more to happen than just Gollum sacrificing himself for the good of 
others?
> 
> Alix





Alix,

Without being specific, don't get the impression that Gollum 
sacrifices himself in a noble way - that is not the case.  Gollum iss 
bad, and remains bad, right till the end;  his actions are for the 
betterment of others in the grand scheme, but he is never concerned 
with anything other than "his precious."

I hope I havn't given too much away.  The ending is stunning, and you 
will be moved upon arriving there.  Enjoy the journey!


Brian




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 14:57:05 2000
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:57:05 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New must read fanfic
Message-ID: <c0.b4619bc.273820c1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5222

In a message dated 11/6/00 9:13:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
lrcjestes at msn.com writes:

<< You all have got to go read "The fic that must not be named"  by Moon.  Its
 a Mary Sue parody.  I laughed from the first line to the last.  It is a
 scream! If you need a pick me up for a monday morning read this fic.  But
 beware if coworkers will think you odd by laughing out loud at your computer
 monitor!!!
 
 Here is the link (I hope this works):
 
 http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=102293
 
 its way too funny
 
 later
 carole
 
  >>
My GOD that was so funny



From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov  6 14:52:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 08:52:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phillip Pullman
References: <8u6ctf+2hos@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A06C5B1.76E837C5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5223

Laurie wrote:

> > Well, based on JKR's recommendations, and those of this
> > list, I bought and have read Pullman.>
> > I think it's awful. gloomy, depressing, dense
> >
> > Susan
>
> I totally agree! I was expecting something completely different. (and
> I bought mine in HARDCOVER!! - whine!)

You guys. What about libraries? I rent movies so I can see them before I buy
them; I borrow books so I can read them before I buy them.

--Amanda




From john at walton.to  Mon Nov  6 15:53:31 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 15:53:31 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New must read fanfic
In-Reply-To: <002901c047fa$d2b44700$1243ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B62C7716.7B05%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5224

lrcjestes at lrcjestes at msn.com wrote:

> You all have got to go read "The fic that must not be named"  by Moon.  Its
> a Mary Sue parody.  I laughed from the first line to the last.  It is a
> scream! If you need a pick me up for a monday morning read this fic.  But
> beware if coworkers will think you odd by laughing out loud at your computer
> monitor!!!
> 
> Here is the link (I hope this works):
> 
> http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=102293
> 
> its way too funny
> 
> later
> carole

Oops. My flatmates now think that I'm insane. I cackled like a furry wombat
throughout that entire story. ::blush::

)- John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Mon Nov  6 15:49:18 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laurie )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 15:49:18 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <3A06C5B1.76E837C5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u6jtu+g5pn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5225

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
 
> You guys. What about libraries? I rent movies so I can see them 
before I buy
> them; I borrow books so I can read them before I buy them.
> 
> --Amanda


Uuuuuhhhhhhhhh......library? Gee, I never though of that! Now I feel 
stupid. 

Laurie (who is slapping her forehead with the palm of her hand, and 
wailing Dumb!, dumb!, dumb!)




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 16:13:34 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:13:34 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u6jtu+g5pn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6lbe+js3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5226

>> You guys. What about libraries? 

Libraries - don't have those in the countryside... have to go to 
nearest town, ok only 8 miles away, but it does mean getting in a car.

My nearest library only lets you have books for a week - though they 
can be renewed over the phone.   I think a week is far too short a 
time... I recall that when I was a child, the local library (in 
London) used to let us have books for 2 weeks, or even longer 
depending on the type of book.

>I rent movies so I can see them before I buy them; 

I rent movies that I don't want to pay for in full.  I buy the good 
movies (from the US on import) before they come out in the cinema 
here.

>I borrow books so I can read them before I buy them.

I don't borrow books because getting to the library is a pain, and I 
forget to take the books back in time, so get charged for overdue 
books.

Nick
England - where librarys are in the towns, not the villages.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 16:08:07 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:08:07 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u6ctf+2hos@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6l17+fg52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5227

I've read Golden Compass... took me over a month.  I really struggled 
with it - but was determined to read it all... and it did get better 
as it went on.

Maybe it's just too advanced for me... I've never been a good reader -
 always hated books in fact (before JKR), so perhaps it's better if I 
stick to books aimed at children.

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 16:23:40 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:23:40 -0000
Subject: Ford Anglia 105E Model Car
Message-ID: <8u6luc+kh69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5228

Hi All

Just recieved an email from Lledo - manufacturers of toy cars.
Anyone who knows about cars... is what is described below close to 
the one that Arther had in COS.

Nick.

---
Dear Nick
we are producing for next year a Ford Anglia 105E in Blue and White 
two tone.  Due for release February 2001.  The model we have used was 
produced about 1959.  Unfortunately I do not have any catalogues for 
next year available till after our trade previews are complete, which 
should be by the end of November if you require one please contact me 
again with postal details.
Regards
Lledo Consumer Services
---




From karob_7 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 16:42:18 2000
From: karob_7 at yahoo.com (Karin )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:42:18 -0000
Subject: neville's story
In-Reply-To: <8u5ls9+sltp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6n1a+u7al@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5229

"Susan McGee" wrote:
> 
> Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
> the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
> use of L.V.s name..
> 

I think parents probably wanted to shelter their children from the 
knowledge of all the horrible things Voldemort and the Death Eaters 
did.  I think there are probably just a select few sensational 
stories that everyone, including the children, seems to know (i.e. 
Voldemort's downfall and the hands of baby Harry, Peter Pettigrew's 
finger being the biggest bit found of him), but that a lot of the 
really sad, really frightening, and really sick things weren't talked 
about in front of children.  At the Quidditch World Cup, Ron didn't 
even know what the Dark Mark was.  I guess it really didn't surprise 
me that Ron didn't know about Neville's parents.

Karin









From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Nov  6 17:04:22 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 6 Nov 2000 09:04:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phillip Pullman
Message-ID: <20001106170422.11569.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5230

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001106/e78385a9/attachment.ksh>

From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Mon Nov  6 17:17:34 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 6 Nov 2000 17:17:34 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <973531054.14045@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5231


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /logos/HP1.gif 
  Uploaded by : simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk 
  Description : HP4GU logo possibility 2 (yes I have far too much free time) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/logos/HP1%2Egif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk
 






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 18:45:17 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:45:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: neville's story
References: <8u6n1a+u7al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002301c04821$b93bd280$fddd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5232

As far as Sirius's tale and Peter, perhaps the parents had the opportunity
to re-acquaint the children with that "don't talk to strangers" rule and the
reasons behind it during the summer when he broke out of prison?

Just a thought there! :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karin " <karob_7 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 10:42 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: neville's story


> "Susan McGee" wrote:
> >
> > Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
> > the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
> > use of L.V.s name..
> >
>
> I think parents probably wanted to shelter their children from the
> knowledge of all the horrible things Voldemort and the Death Eaters
> did.  I think there are probably just a select few sensational
> stories that everyone, including the children, seems to know (i.e.
> Voldemort's downfall and the hands of baby Harry, Peter Pettigrew's
> finger being the biggest bit found of him), but that a lot of the
> really sad, really frightening, and really sick things weren't talked
> about in front of children.  At the Quidditch World Cup, Ron didn't
> even know what the Dark Mark was.  I guess it really didn't surprise
> me that Ron didn't know about Neville's parents.
>
> Karin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov  6 18:06:03 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:06:03 -0000
Subject: Ford Anglia 105E Model Car
In-Reply-To: <8u6luc+kh69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u6rub+lka9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5233

Nick wrote:
> 
> Just recieved an email from Lledo - manufacturers of toy cars.
> Anyone who knows about cars... is what is described below close to 
> the one that Arther had in COS.
> 
> Nick.

Apart from the colour, the model you mentioned is the same as the one 
on the cover of CoS (UK) and the one JKR used for her arrival at 
King's Cross, so we could assume that this is the model Arthur had.  
However, the model isn't specified, so it could easily be the older 
one, as depicted on the mug you found.

I wonder if Lledo realise they could make millions if they produced 
the car in turquoise?  Could Warner Brothers stop them doing that?  
Surely not...

Neil





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Nov  6 18:14:56 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:14:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u6l17+fg52@eGroups.com>
References: <8u6ctf+2hos@eGroups.com> <8u6l17+fg52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <21sd0t812k4o4pqr0pitlq7n9tfk9rhjms@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5234

On Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:08:07 -0000, nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com wrote:

>I've read Golden Compass... took me over a month.  I really struggled 
>with it - but was determined to read it all... and it did get better 
>as it went on.

I have read it recently, too. It took me three weeks, and that's long
for my standards. It *did* get better as it went on, but my biggest
problem was the lack of character development. It was nice to have a
girl as the main character, but the rest of the cast was two
dimensional and not very interesting. After finishing it, I really
wondered why everyone seemed to praise it so much.

Greetings,
Monika



--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From zsenya at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  6 18:42:51 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:42:51 -0000
Subject: Introducing myself to the board
Message-ID: <8u6u3c+o4kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5235

My name is Zsenya and I have been lurking here for a few days. It is 
great to see a board like this - I have been searching for something 
like this for a while now.

I am a big Harry Potter fan, but only started reading the books about 
4 months ago.  I was instantly obsessed and have read all four 
numerous times.  I have been reading the posts with interest and have 
quite a few comments on various things that I have read.  I will put 
them all here although I will follow all the conventions for subject 
lines in future posts


I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling about 
the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost 
children's literature.  It's not that I think that they are not
"real" 
literature, what I mean is that I think no matter how dark or serious 
books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is always writing for a certain target 
audience, and that audience is not 28 years old like I am.   That in 
mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex, they
are 
also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.  I also tend to be 
a bit of a romantic and a Pollyanna, which is why
.

The Death Pool

I cannot see her killing off Ron, Harry, or Hermione.   It just isn't 
done and if she does do so, I would be very surprised.  Dumbledore I 
predict will die in some sort of Obi Wan Kenobi way, and he is quite 
old already.  I do not even think that Sirius or Lupin will die 
either.  Peter Pettigrew might, as well as Snape.  As far as the 
students go, I think that Cedric was enough, although I can also 
foresee that perhaps one of the other Weasley's will go (I really
like 
the theory of Percy going to the dark side), or perhaps even Arthur 
Weasley.  I think Colin Creevey is pretty much a dead man.  

Neville's Story

I think it is highly plausible that the kids of Harry's generation 
don't know all the details of the past 15 years.  Firstly, it seems 
that a lot of things were going on behind the scenes that not
everyone 
was aware of.  I read an interesting article in a book about
Baltimore 
(where I live) which discusses the loss of mass memory.  There was 
apparently a big mill worker's strike here in the 20s or 30s, yet no 
one who was alive at the time claims to remember it.  I have to look 
it up for more information, but that is sort of how I feel the adults 
have treated the past 20 years or so for their children.  They know 
about Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort in a sort of boogeyman way, but 
they don't know all the details.  Perhaps Bill and Charlie know, but 
they wouldn't have found out until they were older.  The one thing 
that I wonder is why Hermione hasn't researched all of this.  I would 
think that she would have read up on it, although perhaps the
official 
history books don't mention all the little details and I guess she is 
busy enough as it is!

Hermione

I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I was 
a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather that 
overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
well. 
 In other words, I learned early on how to please the teachers and 
that I enjoyed getting good grades (since I wasn't good in other 
areas, like music or sports).   Hermione studies for hours and hours 
and gets excellent grades, but Ron and Harry study much less and pass 
reasonably well with little effort.  I think that she knows that she 
is bright but recognizes that the others would do just as well if
they 
would study as much as she does.  When you are the type of child that 
pays attention in class and no one else seems to know the answers, it 
is MADDENING to have to sit through that.   Also, I have to wonder,
if 
she was a boy would she be treated in the same manner?  She also has 
the usual girl issues (insecure about her bushy hair and big teeth), 
and, given the way she bursts into tears at the drop of the hat, is 
very, very sensitive (and obviously going through some major puberty 
in Books III and IV).  When I look at scenes like the problems with 
the Firebolt, I don't see it so much as Hermione being a tattle-tale 
as her being a practical, responsible child, who cares deeply about 
her friends and will do what she thinks is right to protect them.  
It's a behavior that took me well into my twenties to learn.


Ron

I love Ron as much as Hermione and will say up front that I am a
total 
and complete Ron and Hermione advocate.   OK, I have read several of 
the posts re: Ron and his, er, behavioural issues, but as I said 
above, I think that these books are pretty much straightforward and 
that Ron WILL find something to excel in and he WILL do whatever is 
necessary to deserve Hermione.  I truly can't see him as a parallel
to 
Peter Pettigrew.  Sure, he got upset and jealous of Harry in GoF, but 
that is completely natural. I was completely upset and stopped
talking 
to my best friend in 9th grade when she got a boyfriend before I did. 
 14 year-olds get upset over silly things.  He is Harry's truest 
friend, and a good guy and, if anything, I see him facing Voldemort 
together with Harry.  Also, didn't (sorry, don't have PoA in front of 
me) Sirius get some sort of familiar glint in his eye when Ron stood 
up for Harry in the Shrieking Shack?  Ron has done a number of brave 
things in all of the books and has shown that he will sacrifice 
himself for his friends if necessary.

Harry
Well, what can I say? These ARE the Harry Potter books after all and 
he is the star.  He has many faults and a good many issues to work 
out.   I can't comment any more than that right now, this message is 
already far too long, but I look forward to contributing in the 
future!

Thanks for reading, and I look forward to more wonderful theories and 
discussions!
Zsenya




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov  6 19:12:01 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:12:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Introducing myself to the board
References: <8u6u3c+o4kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A070280.C89E9548@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5236

zsenya at yahoo.com wrote:

> My name is Zsenya and I have been lurking here for a few days. It is
> great to see a board like this - I have been searching for something
> like this for a while now.

Welcome, Zsenya, and I love your name, but you didn't mention Snape! Aaagh!
What are your thoughts on *my* favorite character (well, him and Lupin)?

--Amanda




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Mon Nov  6 19:07:06 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:07:06 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Canary Creams
References: <20001106063905.6668.qmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c04824$c255cf80$27a501d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5237

IIRC, Canary Creams are a variation on Custard Creams - would have to be one
helluva biccie to get a canary mask in - OTH, finding some other comestible
that would work is a great idea...and chocolate is such a great choice!

Alix

----- Original Message -----
From: Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Canary Creams


>
> --- Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> > I had an idea (rare event!) during today's chat!
> >
> > catlady_de_los_angeles says,
> > How can we do Muggle Canary Creams?
> >
> > Inside the cream candy (which must be large to have
> > so much room inside
> > it) is a packet which contains a Mask of a canary
> > head
> >
> >           /\ /\
> >            + +     Mews and views
> >          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston
>
> I nearly passed over this post in my hurry to catch on
> everything posted today. My husband makes chocolates,
> and something just clicked in my mind (is that a bad
> thing?). If the mask were paper it could be enclosed
> in plastic (to prevent it getting soggy) then placed
> in the center of a cream filled chocolate egg. The egg
> molds come in a lot of various sizes (I think we have
> a couple different ones here), so I think a mask could
> fit into one of them. I'd ask Andy how feasible this
> is, but he's in bed - I'm the only one who sets my own
> work hours (and I'm supposed to be researching now,
> not reading e-mail, oh, well). I keep thinking
> lemon-flavoured cream filling, I suspect because it's
> yellow. Any other flavour suggestions?
>
> Sheryll
>
>
> =====
> "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste
good with ketchup."
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov  6 19:39:59 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:39:59 -0000
Subject: many many replies (was Neville, gen parallels, trivia, canary creams, fanfic)
Message-ID: <8u71ef+v1vf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5238


A few things about the Neville's Story thread:
1. We don't know that Ron, et al, knew anything about Sirius being 
accused of killing Peter before Sirius escaped - therefore, they 
could've learned about it from a combination of the Daily Prophet and 
their parents when the news was *necessary* for them to know (so they 
could stay away from that evil, scary murderer, sirius black 
2. Do we know that Ron & Hermione *don't* know about Neville's 
parents? I don't have my book here at work, but I think all we know 
is that Harry didn't know about Neville's parents, and as we know 
that for some reason Harry avoids recent history books (even though 
Hermione's read a bunch of them) his ignorance is possibly more 
excusable than Ron's or Hermione's. 


A comment on the generation parallels:
I've always thought of Sirius & James as the type of student who is 
just so bright that they don't have to study intensely (like Hermione 
chooses to do)  - that they do well enough by writing the required 
essays, paying vague attention in class, and reading the required 
chapters once. McGonnegal says they were the cleverest students (I 
think that's her wording) which doesn't mean they were #s 1 and 2 in 
the class - Snape could've been #1 in potions,  Lily in Charms and 
Remus in DaDA - but I think they had to've been up there. 

A comment on that trivia game:
I'm glad that people are enjoying it - we'd probably like it more if 
we had other people to play it with too (and will likely LOVE it when 
Our Harry is old enough to play (ok, that's at least 3 years away, 
but still). 
I still wish that the "counters" to move around the gameboard were 
the characters, not just different colored wizarding hats. Maybe the 
next iteration of the game will let you be Hedwig, Fawkes, a Flying 
Ford Anglia, Agragog, Fluffy or a Basilisk. Well, maybe not the last 
one...

A comment on fanfics
I LOVED Moon's Mary Sue - I had to close my door so people didn't 
hear me being hysterical. Another short one which was pretty funny 
was The Slytherin Kama Sutra from Angie Astravic - not at *all* what 
you'd expect from the title, but it does, um, involve basilisks. Sort 
of. 

A comment on Canary Creams - there's 2 options which come to mind - 
those little Peeps that they sell around easter are terrific, and 
look like nice, yellow canaries (see 
http://www.marshmallowpeeps.com/) and I also seem to remember friends 
enjoying (again, around easter) these sugar candies which look like 
Fabrege eggs -they're made of solid sugar, with a hole in the front 
and a "diorama" type thingy inside - could be a canary inside (or 
even a tolled up mask, depending on how big the egg was). And you 
know those dinosaur egg candies, which you suck until you get to the 
middle, where there's a little sugar dino?




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Mon Nov  6 19:48:43 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:48:43 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <20001106170422.11569.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8u71ur+app6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5239

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> On Mon, 06 November 2000, nick at d... wrote:
> 
> > Maybe it's just too advanced for me... I've never been a good 
reader - always hated books in fact (before JKR), so perhaps it's 
better if I stick to books aimed at children.
> 
> Well, his books *are* classified as kids' books, but I really don't 
see it.  Some, excuse me, MOST of the concepts are extremely lofty, 
and I don't fathom how any child, even an exceptional one, could 
understand, and thus, enjoy them.
> 
> I did, however, find each of my copies on the adult bookshelves, 
and I've been enjoying them hugely.  It's all a matter of tase, I 
suppose.

  I would have to agree completely.  I have completed the first 2 
books and found them immensely fun and exciting but full of very 
mature themes.  I do not think that I would have enjoyed them even at 
the age of 15 or 16.  I've tried reading them to my girlfriend's 10-
year old daughter and I can tell most of it went right over her 
head.  IMHO, they have a somewhat negative view of organized religion 
and I can see how it might annoy some.  But I cannot understand how 
it could be considered dark and depressing.  Fans of Hermione will, I 
think, really like the spunky heroine Lyra.  As voicelady said, it's 
all a matter of taste but this trilogy is up there with Harry in my 
book.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 19:47:29 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:47:29 -0600
Subject: Introducing myself to the board
References: <8u6u3c+o4kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A070AD1.C27CBEAD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5240

Hi --

Welcome to Zsenya!

> I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling about
> the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost
> children's literature.  It's not that I think that they are not
> "real" literature, what I mean is that I think no matter how dark or
> serious books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is always writing for a certain
> target audience, and that audience is not 28 years old like I am.

Well, you may get some sharp disagreement on this one -- one of your
listmoms in particular (me!) would take issue with that.  JKR herself
has said in countless interviews that she didn't write to a target
audience of children, she didn't realize PS/SS was a "children's book"
until much later, she always felt the books were appropriate for
children of certain ages but not targeted at them and most importantly,
she has said that she wrote the books as something she (an adult when
she wrote them) would enjoy.  So, she's always maintained that she's not
surprised by the large adult following.  She's also refused to "tone
down" the books for her younger readers -- if they were truly being
targeted at 9-12 yr olds, she would probably feel compelled to tone them
down.

> That in mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex,
> they are also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.

Well, all I can say is: we debate & theorize *alot* in this group (i.e.,
most all of us wouldn't necessarily think the books are
"straightforward" at all really).  I guess if you've been lurking for
awhile you've probably gleaned that already.  But, we have had some
members who really thought that we were "going overboard" -- the depth
of analysis was a bit of a shock for them.  <g>

> Hermione
>
> I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I was
> a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather that
> overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
> well.

Yay!  Another Hermione fan!!  :--)

Again, welcome to our group!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 20:03:34 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:03:34 -0600
Subject: Announcement
Message-ID: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5241

Hi --

I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone as it does
affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm expecting our first
baby in April -- we had the 4 month diagnostic ultrasound this morning,
and everything looks great!  It's a girl (or so they say anyway --
little less definite with those girls).  And no, even though I *was*
going to name a boy Harry (it's a family name too!), I'm not naming her
Hermione or Joanne.  I am thinking her nursery will have plenty of
HP-related things though.  :--)

I expect to remain as fully-involved with the group as I can after she
arrives, but having known lots of new moms, I'm fairly confident that I
will be less involved than I am now for at least the first few months.
So, I am checking with a few of our active members to see if anyone is
interested in helping poor Melanie out with any admin issues (if you're
interested, let me know!).

Oh, and yes, my chapter/character summary will be done ahead of time so
that Carole can post it if the baby arrives early.  And, yes, ASA will
get finished -- no need to worry about that either.  Oh, and the FAQs .
. . I'm *nearly* done with my grouping (cough . . . well, "nearly" might
be strong but I can most certainly finish them in 5.5 months).  <g>

Penny




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon Nov  6 20:11:41 2000
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (Cassandra Claire)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:11:41 -0000
Subject: PoU and Draco Dormiens in German!
In-Reply-To: <006501c047ea$7de8c4e0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8u739t+gb95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5242

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforths_Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> I assume the people on the PoU list already know this--but did you 
guys know that PoU and DD have been translated into German?  The same 
crew that coordinated their own translation of GoF before the 
official Carlsen edition beached in October are now working their way 
through our favorite fanfics.  I've know idea what to make of the 
legality of it all, but they're an interesting bunch of people.
> Check them out at:
> http://www.sitescout.de/cgi-bin/freihobby/out.cgi?
id=palle04&url=http%3a%2f%
> 2fwww.harry-auf-deutsch.de%2f
> 
*blinks in stunned shock* Are you SURE? Erm, I couldn't get that link 
to work but the whole concept seems bizarre to me. Why anyone would 
bother to translate DD is a mystery to me (although I have now had 
versions of the Chimney Sweep Song in French and Spanish sent to me). 
Um, how did you find that so I can go forth and look myself?




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Nov  6 20:29:37 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:29:37 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Smiths
References: <20001105174238.4216.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com> <056d01c04756$90331400$0d65073e@merchantbtinternet.com>
Message-ID: <004301c04830$581560c0$d88f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5243


----- Original Message -----
From: Yaz <Yaz at good.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The Smiths


> Me again... I knew once I started posting here I'd never be able to
stop...
> *grin*
>
> > JKR's favorites include the Smiths?  If I'm not mistaken, they did the
> > theme song for "Charmed," another set of witches brought to the screen
by
> > WB.  If this sets a precedent, maybe a Smiths song can also become the
> > Harry Potter theme.
>
> I don't know "Charmed", but according to IMDb, this was an Aaron Spelling
> production starring Shannen Doherty, Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa Milano
as
> three sisters who discover that they have supernatural powers - I assume
> this is the "Charmed" to which you are referring?
>
> I can't find any reference to The Smiths music in relation to "Charmed",
all
> I can find for The Smiths on soundtracks is "I Started Something I
Couldn't
> Finish" on the "Fever Pitch" soundtrack, "Please, Please, Please, Let Me
Get
> What I Want" used in both "Never Been Kissed" and "Pretty in Pink" and
"How
> Soon Is Now" in both "Out of Bounds" and "The Wedding Singer". Original
> Music for "Charmed" is by Tim Truman. Of course, if you're referring to a
> completely different "Charmed", all that is irrelevant!

The main opening theme song for Charmed is indeed that Smiths classic "How
Soon Is Now?".  However, it's not the original.  It's a cover, but I don't
know who by.

As for what Smiths song could be the HP theme...  Panic? (referring to
Voldemort)

Referring to Hermione getting petrified in CoS, how about Girlfriend in a
Coma?

Jnix




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Nov  6 20:14:46 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:14:46 -0000
Subject: Announcement
In-Reply-To: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u73fm+3c0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5244

Congratulations!!!!  I'm sure you'll be a great mother - you've been 
such a great mom for all of us! <VBG>




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov  6 20:32:53 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:32:53 -0000
Subject: Presidential Election
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEMOCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5245

Hello all;

Here we are at the beginning of November 2000.
A major political event is upon us.
The Presidential Election is this week.
It is important.
It will affect us (or at least some of us).
One vote can make a difference.
Voting is an important right.
It is a right that many have fought for over the years.
Those that are eligible should vote.


So I ask you a simple question; how should I vote in the elections for
Hertford College JCR president?


Do I vote for the only candidate standing or do I instead go for RON?


RON stands for Re-Open Nominations and so appears in ever election we have.
He has even won some of the elections!


Simon

PS: Did anyone think I might have been referring to the USA presidential
Elections?

PPS: Can you tell I am still trying to avoid doing my work?





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 20:58:02 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:58:02 -0000
Subject: mostly OT and the Wizard of OZ
In-Reply-To: <8u4avl+h1vc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u760q+enru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5246

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:

> And regarding the anti-Oz link:
> 
> I read the rant in amazed and disgusted disbelief as I do all such 
> rants.  But what got me was the statement that "Wonderful" is one 
of 
> Christ's names.  When they quoted Isaiah 9:6, a comma was 
erroneously 
> placed which utterly changed the meaning of the verse!  "...and his 
> name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,..."  instead 
> of "...Wonderful Counselor,..."  But I suppose proofreading is not 
> one of their strong suits, or reading at all...
>

At the request of the Muggles for Harry Potter group, I once spent 
some time replying to the anti-HP people who were posting a lot on 
some AOL newsgroup.  I read all of their posts, probably about 15 or 
20, and the striking thing about ALL of them was how illiterate they 
were.  These people may talk about being opposed to HP, the Wizard, 
and I suppose Hansel and Gretel too, but in practice they are clearly 
opposed to having any sort of literary life.  It was truly amazing 
how consistent the posts were in terms of poor spelling and grammar; 
my favorite was from the representative of the *Councel of 
Conservitive Citicens* (sic, naturally).  These people are not 
exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 
> Off to clean house, since I don't have a house-elf and my cats 
> absolutely refuse to help me out.
> 

My cats have killed off the house elves because they feel they can do 
a better job of taking care of the house by knocking things over, 
leaving dirty paw prints everywhere, spreading cat hair around and 
alternating between sleeping on the newspaper pile and in the basket 
of clean laundry.  Cats are essentially anti-house elves.  Mine are, 
anyway.

-- Joywitch




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 21:01:21 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:01:21 -0000
Subject: WBSTORE.COM
Message-ID: <002701c04834$b8f16160$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5247

Hi all

Just got this piece of imformation ... might be useful sometime

Hana Shanaa
E-commerce Marketing Manager
Wbstore.com
<Hana.Shanaa at warnerbros.com>

Now we know who to complain to if WBSTORE is not meeting our Marketing
expectations!

Nick.






From eliasberg at ioc.net  Mon Nov  6 21:01:53 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:01:53 -0000
Subject: Announcement
In-Reply-To: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u7681+u9bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5248

Congretulations, that is great news.




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Mon Nov  6 21:05:28 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:05:28 -0000
Subject: Introducing myself to the board
In-Reply-To: <8u6u3c+o4kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u76eo+hbcf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5249

I'm new too. I don't have much to add presently because I want to read 
more of the threads before I add my two cents.

~Demelza
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, zsenya at y... wrote:
> My name is Zsenya and I have been lurking here for a few days. It is 
> great to see a board like this - I have been searching for something 
> like this for a while now.
> 
> I am a big Harry Potter fan, but only started reading the books 
about 
> 4 months ago.  I was instantly obsessed and have read all four 
> numerous times.  I have been reading the posts with interest and 
have 
> quite a few comments on various things that I have read.  I will put 
> them all here although I will follow all the conventions for subject 
> lines in future posts

> 
> I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling about 
> the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost 
> children's literature.  It's not that I think that they are not
> "real" 
> literature, what I mean is that I think no matter how dark or 
serious 
> books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is always writing for a certain target 
> audience, and that audience is not 28 years old like I am.   That in 
> mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex, they
> are 
> also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.  I also tend to 
be 
> a bit of a romantic and a Pollyanna, which is why
.
> 
> The Death Pool
> 
> I cannot see her killing off Ron, Harry, or Hermione.   It just 
isn't 
> done and if she does do so, I would be very surprised.  Dumbledore I 
> predict will die in some sort of Obi Wan Kenobi way, and he is quite 
> old already.  I do not even think that Sirius or Lupin will die 
> either.  Peter Pettigrew might, as well as Snape.  As far as the 
> students go, I think that Cedric was enough, although I can also 
> foresee that perhaps one of the other Weasley's will go (I really
> like 
> the theory of Percy going to the dark side), or perhaps even Arthur 
> Weasley.  I think Colin Creevey is pretty much a dead man.  
> 
> Neville's Story
> 
> I think it is highly plausible that the kids of Harry's generation 
> don't know all the details of the past 15 years.  Firstly, it seems 
> that a lot of things were going on behind the scenes that not
> everyone 
> was aware of.  I read an interesting article in a book about
> Baltimore 
> (where I live) which discusses the loss of mass memory.  There was 
> apparently a big mill worker's strike here in the 20s or 30s, yet no 
> one who was alive at the time claims to remember it.  I have to look 
> it up for more information, but that is sort of how I feel the 
adults 
> have treated the past 20 years or so for their children.  They know 
> about Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort in a sort of boogeyman way, 
but 
> they don't know all the details.  Perhaps Bill and Charlie know, but 
> they wouldn't have found out until they were older.  The one thing 
> that I wonder is why Hermione hasn't researched all of this.  I 
would 
> think that she would have read up on it, although perhaps the
> official 
> history books don't mention all the little details and I guess she 
is 
> busy enough as it is!
> 
> Hermione
> 
> I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I 
was 
> a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather 
that 
> overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
> well. 
>  In other words, I learned early on how to please the teachers and 
> that I enjoyed getting good grades (since I wasn't good in other 
> areas, like music or sports).   Hermione studies for hours and hours 
> and gets excellent grades, but Ron and Harry study much less and 
pass 
> reasonably well with little effort.  I think that she knows that she 
> is bright but recognizes that the others would do just as well if
> they 
> would study as much as she does.  When you are the type of child 
that 
> pays attention in class and no one else seems to know the answers, 
it 
> is MADDENING to have to sit through that.   Also, I have to wonder,
> if 
> she was a boy would she be treated in the same manner?  She also has 
> the usual girl issues (insecure about her bushy hair and big teeth), 
> and, given the way she bursts into tears at the drop of the hat, is 
> very, very sensitive (and obviously going through some major puberty 
> in Books III and IV).  When I look at scenes like the problems with 
> the Firebolt, I don't see it so much as Hermione being a tattle-tale 
> as her being a practical, responsible child, who cares deeply about 
> her friends and will do what she thinks is right to protect them.  
> It's a behavior that took me well into my twenties to learn.
> 
> 
> Ron
> 
> I love Ron as much as Hermione and will say up front that I am a
> total 
> and complete Ron and Hermione advocate.   OK, I have read several of 
> the posts re: Ron and his, er, behavioural issues, but as I said 
> above, I think that these books are pretty much straightforward and 
> that Ron WILL find something to excel in and he WILL do whatever is 
> necessary to deserve Hermione.  I truly can't see him as a parallel
> to 
> Peter Pettigrew.  Sure, he got upset and jealous of Harry in GoF, 
but 
> that is completely natural. I was completely upset and stopped
> talking 
> to my best friend in 9th grade when she got a boyfriend before I 
did. 
>  14 year-olds get upset over silly things.  He is Harry's truest 
> friend, and a good guy and, if anything, I see him facing Voldemort 
> together with Harry.  Also, didn't (sorry, don't have PoA in front 
of 
> me) Sirius get some sort of familiar glint in his eye when Ron stood 
> up for Harry in the Shrieking Shack?  Ron has done a number of brave 
> things in all of the books and has shown that he will sacrifice 
> himself for his friends if necessary.
> 
> Harry
> Well, what can I say? These ARE the Harry Potter books after all and 
> he is the star.  He has many faults and a good many issues to work 
> out.   I can't comment any more than that right now, this message is 
> already far too long, but I look forward to contributing in the 
> future!
> 
> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to more wonderful theories 
and 
> discussions!
> Zsenya




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov  6 21:27:39 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:27:39 -0000
Subject: Not A Children's Book (was: Re: Introducing myself  to the board)
Message-ID: <005d01c04839$66898c40$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5250

Hi Zsenya, welcome.

> I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling about
> the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost
> children's literature.

Oh I disagree... they are more than that.  They are family enjoyment books -
can be read by people, be they 8, or 80.

>It's not that I think that they are not "real" literature, what I mean is
that I think no matter how dark or serious books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is
always writing for a certain target audience, and that audience is not 28
years old like I am.

Correct... she's writing for herself, and she is older than you.
Jo writes things that she likes to read.  Thus there is comedy in the books,
it's not all serious, it's fun and games.

>Well, you may get some sharp disagreement on this one -- one of your
listmoms in particular (me!) would take issue with that.

And don't forget me Penny.  The problem is, is that there is no category for
the books.  Unlike TV, which has Childrens, Family, and Adult - books are
just Children's or Adults... there is not really a FAMILY grouping.    Maybe
the NEW YORK TIMES could do a new bestseller list, for FAMILY books.

>JKR herself has said in countless interviews that she didn't write to a
target audience of children, she didn't realize PS/SS was a "children's
book" until much later,

And it's unknown if this decision was before or after the publisher got
involved - I suspect after!

>she always felt the books were appropriate for children of certain ages but
not targeted at them and most importantly,
>she has said that she wrote the books as something she (an adult when she
wrote them) would enjoy.

She's always going to be a adult... isn't she?  Jo can't magic herself back
to being a child as far as I know.

>So, she's always maintained that she's not surprised by the large adult
following.  She's also refused to "tone
>down" the books for her younger readers -- if they were truly being
targeted at 9-12 yr olds, she would probably feel compelled to tone them
down.

And make them shorter - it must be remembered that children's books are
under 40,000 words in length.  Thus why Jo found it hard to get a
publisher... PS/SS is longer than a children's book.

>That in mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex, they
are also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.

I think there are different levels to the books.  You can read the book once
and get the gist of the story... but then you read it again and you pick up
on more of the detail... the comedy, and you see how something in an early
chapter is vital to something later on.

>Well, all I can say is: we debate & theorize *alot* in this group (i.e.,
most all of us wouldn't necessarily think the books are
>"straightforward" at all really).

We do get a bit complex at times... and idea is put forward, it's taken up,
and before you know it - we have a timeline of all the events dating back to
the 18th century.   Sometimes we get carried away... but that's the way we
are.

>I guess if you've been lurking for awhile you've probably gleaned that
already.  But, we have had some
>members who really thought that we were "going overboard" -- the depth of
analysis was a bit of a shock for them.  <g>

And some don't like us picking holes in the books - but hey, that's what a
true fan does - even Terry Pratchet fans pick holes in his books.

>> Hermione
>>
>> I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I was
>> a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather that
>> overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
>> well.
>
>Yay!  Another Hermione fan!!  :--)

Hermione is great... and strange, but true, she's based on Jo.

>Again, welcome to our group!

Yes... big welcome - expect your inbox to be full on daily basis!

Nick.




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Mon Nov  6 21:36:27 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:36:27 -0500
Subject: Congratulations to Penny
References: <md5:FD30584E4DBBE524C6B07626A5F02EB7>
Message-ID: <3A07245B.269047DB@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5251





> I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone as it does
> affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm expecting our first
> baby in April -- we had the 4 month diagnostic ultrasound this morning,
> and everything looks great!  It's a girl (or so they say anyway --
> little less definite with those girls).  And no, even though I *was*
> going to name a boy Harry (it's a family name too!), I'm not naming her
> Hermione or Joanne.  I am thinking her nursery will have plenty of
> HP-related things though.  :--)

Congratulations!

drpam
mom of three...




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 22:13:23 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:13:23 -0600
Subject: Merchandise -- HELP!!!
Message-ID: <3A072D03.A098D9C4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5252

Hi --

I *really* want those HP sheets that Ebony was describing.  Does anyone
know where I obtain them?  My WB catalogue came in the mail today, and I
don't see them there.  They aren't on the wbstore.com site.  I did some
general searches on google, excite, hotbot, etc.  -- nothing!  Well, I
did find one site that some SC company called Spring Industries has
received a license to produce HP sheets, bath accessories, etc. and
they'll be available in dept stores this fall.  I assume that means Fall
2000.

Help!  Where do I find them???

Penny




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Nov  6 22:23:49 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 22:23:49 -0000
Subject: Congratulations to Penny
In-Reply-To: <3A07245B.269047DB@tidalwave.net>
Message-ID: <8u7b1l+qsf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5253

Awwww! This is great! Wonderful news!
Pippin
Mom of two





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 22:34:38 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 22:34:38 -0000
Subject: many many replies (was Neville, gen parallels, trivia, canary creams, fanfic)
In-Reply-To: <8u71ef+v1vf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u7blu+o78r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5254

> 
> A comment on the generation parallels:
> I've always thought of Sirius & James as the type of student who is 
> just so bright that they don't have to study intensely (like 
Hermione 
> chooses to do)  - that they do well enough by writing the required 
> essays, paying vague attention in class, and reading the required 
> chapters once. McGonnegal says they were the cleverest students (I 
> think that's her wording) which doesn't mean they were #s 1 and 2 
in 
> the class - Snape could've been #1 in potions,  Lily in Charms and 
> Remus in DaDA - but I think they had to've been up there. 
> 

I thought James and Lily were head boy and head girl -- am I dreaming 
that?




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 22:29:30 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:29:30 -0600
Subject: More on Merchandise
Message-ID: <3A0730CA.159F3012@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5255

Hi --

Forgot to mention yesterday that I actually received 2 sets of the Fat
Lady bookends.  If anyone is interested in buying one of them, I have a
receipt & the set is quite a bit cheaper than advertised at the Sylvan
Shoppe online (they're selling them for $69 or $79 --- these were $45).
So, if you want to pay $45 plus shipping, they can be yours.  :--)
First person to let me know will get dibs.

If I don't hear anything, I'll take them back late this week.

Penny




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 22:36:27 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 22:36:27 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u71ur+app6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u7bpb+1akv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5256

But I cannot understand how 
> it could be considered dark and depressing.  Fans of Hermione will, 
I 
> think, really like the spunky heroine Lyra.  As voicelady said, 
it's 
> all a matter of taste but this trilogy is up there with Harry in my 
> book.

Children tortured by being separated from their daemon is my
idea of dark and depressing.

I would agree with Brian. Too advanced for me

Susan




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Mon Nov  6 23:07:12 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 23:07:12 -0000
Subject: Phillip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <8u7bpb+1akv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u7dj0+kqnh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5257

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> But I cannot understand how 
> > it could be considered dark and depressing.  Fans of Hermione 
will, 
> I 
> > think, really like the spunky heroine Lyra.  As voicelady said, 
> it's 
> > all a matter of taste but this trilogy is up there with Harry in 
my 
> > book.
> 
> Children tortured by being separated from their daemon is my
> idea of dark and depressing.
> 
> I would agree with Brian. Too advanced for me
> 
> Susan

   I would agree that the novel shows a particularly disturbing and 
gruesome side of evil but didn't JKR say that to really appreciate a 
true hero, an story has to show it's opposite?  You're right, it's 
probably not for everybody but I don't think it's any worse than GOF 
in the 'face of evil' department.  Anyway, just my 2 knuts.

Brian





From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov  6 23:24:07 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 17:24:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder parallels
References: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com> <005901c0479f$038fc5e0$2c8fd6ce@oemcomputer> <Q.20001106132542.1F34.3.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <3A073D97.3578111C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5258

Hi --

Christina Gross wrote:

> But Peter wasn't really a member of James' circle as Neville doesn't
> really belong to the triad.

I would dispute this somewhat based on the fact that all 3 of the
Marauders other than Lupin seem to have learned the animagi
transformation in order to pal around with Moony.  If Peter wasn't part
of the inner circle, he simply wouldn't have been trusted enough to have
that info (that Lupin was a werewolf for starters).  Neville really
doesn't belong to the Trio, but I think it's clear enough that Peter was
more-or-less a full member of the Marauders.  He have been less talented
& a bit of a wimp, but there must have been *some* degree of trust &
respect going on there or otherwise, there would have just been the 3
Marauders, leaving Peter out in the cold.  But, my sense is that he took
full part in their nighttime wanderings.

I do think it's hard to make exact parallels amongst the Marauders since
you've got 4 Marauders & 3 of our gang.  This means, you've got to go
outside the Trio to find a parallel for the 4th Marauder.  I still like
the Lupin-Neville parallel the best.  My problem is I'm not sure yet
exactly who really is Peter's parallel in this generation.  It *might*
be Ron -- I suppose I see capacity for that, even though we certainly
can't say for sure at this point.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Mon Nov  6 23:47:13 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:47:13 EST
Subject: Phillip Pullman
Message-ID: <15.b5bf197.27389d01@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5259

Voicelady said: 
> Well, his books *are* classified as kids' books, but I really don't see it. 
> Some, excuse me, MOST of the concepts are extremely lofty, and I don't 
fathom
> how any child, even an exceptional one, could understand, and thus, enjoy
> them.

I guess this would be "showing my lack of age", but I read them as an early 
teen, and I absolutely loved them. I'm actually shocked at myself for not 
reading the third yet. I'll see if they have it at the library tomorrow. 

For those who are curious, I'm nearly 16, and probably the youngest member on 
the group. 

Ellie



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Nov  6 23:58:24 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 23:58:24 -0000
Subject: Merchandise -- HELP!!!
In-Reply-To: <3A072D03.A098D9C4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u7gj0+hofl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5260

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I *really* want those HP sheets that Ebony was describing.  Does 
anyone know where I obtain them?  My WB catalogue came in the mail 
today, and I don't see them there.  They aren't on the wbstore.com 
site.  

There were actually 2 WB catalogues sent out.  I can give you all the 
info:

available Nov. 20,2000
3 pc. twin sheet set (flat, fitted, pillow case) - #NG654 $39
Twin comforter - #NG655 $69
4 pc. full sheet set (flat, fitted, 2 pillow cases) - #NG657 $49
Full comforter - #NG658 $85
Pillow sham - #NG656 $24
Hedwig throw pillow - #NG659 $20

you can order by phone (credit cards only) 800-223-6524
for international orders 302-323-9067

Happy Ordering, everyone!




From minzzer at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 00:16:43 2000
From: minzzer at hotmail.com (Minzzer _)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:16:43 CST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phillip Pullman
Message-ID: <F1422EPye7UXXBh6zYD0000a3bf@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5261

No I have to say I'm younger. the third book, which I just finished reading 
is a sure turnpager. Hope you get to read it soon. I really don't get how it 
those books can be classified as kids book. Maybe because it is a fantasy 
book on different worlds. then again thats a lame excuse.

Minzzer


>From: Ellimist15 at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phillip Pullman
>Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:47:13 EST
>
>Voicelady said:
> > Well, his books *are* classified as kids' books, but I really don't see 
>it.
> > Some, excuse me, MOST of the concepts are extremely lofty, and I don't
>fathom
> > how any child, even an exceptional one, could understand, and thus, 
>enjoy
> > them.
>
>I guess this would be "showing my lack of age", but I read them as an early
>teen, and I absolutely loved them. I'm actually shocked at myself for not
>reading the third yet. I'll see if they have it at the library tomorrow.
>
>For those who are curious, I'm nearly 16, and probably the youngest member 
>on
>the group.
>
>Ellie

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 00:22:06 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:22:06 -0600
Subject: WB Merchandise Update; Civic Duty to Vote (partially OT)
Message-ID: <3A074B2E.9414233D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5262

Hi --

I spoke to Warner Bros. just now about the sheet sets.  I don't own any
full-size or twin beds, but was interested in buying the pillow-cases
separately.  No such luck.  They aren't selling them like that, and
noone seems to know if they will develop queen & king sizes eventually.

I did talk to someone in customer service about the state of the website
(things that you could swear were on there suddenly disappear).  She
confirmed that if something sells out, they remove it entirely from the
website (rather than just saying, here's the item & it's sold out).  She
indicated that the Nimbus ornaments that are still listed in the print
catalogues *are* sold out.  I was complaining to her because I couldn't
find one on their website last night (& noone got me one for my
birthday).  So, I went to ebay and paid $20 to win one.  The catalogue
that I received in the mail today was listing them for $10, and I was
about ready to shoot myself.  But, customer service says that they are
definitely sold out and likely will not be getting anymore in.  She said
that demand is far exceeding supply on most of the HP merchandise out
there (are they feeding demand by keeping supplies low or did they just
badly misestimate??  Hmm).  So, if you're a collector and/or want to
make some money off the rest of us suckers, I'd strongly suggest that
you stockpile what you want or want to sell.

If none of you guys want my extra set of Fat Lady bookends, I may end up
listing them on ebay!  <g>

I think I may email the person that Nick posted about earlier today --
they really need to know about the adult market (i.e., queen & king size
sheets would be nice!).

VOTE: While I've got the bully pulpit momentarily, I will state my
opinion that every U.S. citizen eligible to vote should do so
tomorrow!!  If you live in one of the "battleground" states, your vote
WILL count!  Exercise it!   We don't see elections this close very often
-- it's of critical importance this year.

Penny




From managirl19 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 00:30:32 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:30:32 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
Message-ID: <7b.bbe9f35.2738a728@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5263

Oh! In a case like this...WHO CARES ABOUT ASA! lol! I'm so happy for you 
Penny! I wouldn't have the time to help, but Congratulations!!! I'm so happy 
for you! Babies bring tears to my eyes! :)

--------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Allegria Winselvern</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">
FanFiction.net</A>
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 00:26:40 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:26:40 -0600
Subject: Grades & Head Boy/Head Girl
References: <8u7blu+o78r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A074C40.ECED48B8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5264

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> McGonnegal says they were the cleverest students (I
> > think that's her wording) which doesn't mean they were #s 1 and 2
> in the class - Snape could've been #1 in potions,  Lily in Charms and
> > Remus in DaDA - but I think they had to've been up there.
>
> I thought James and Lily were head boy and head girl -- am I dreaming
> that?

Head Boy & Head Girl are not necessarily the best students in the class
in any given year (I don't think -- Brits can correct me if I'm wrong).
I doubt it works that James is Head Boy & Lily is Head Girl
automatically if the class standings were thus: James, Sirius, Remus,
Lily, Severus, etc.  I think there's more to it than just the best
marks, although I'm sure that grades do figure into the overall choice.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 00:30:22 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:30:22 -0600
Subject: Sirius Death in the Canon
References: <8u01lp+bg1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A074D1E.C357FB2D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5265

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> Although, I will concede that there are very strong
> > arguments that Sirius could be one of the deaths.
> >
>
> I've missed those arguments...could someone summarize or point
> me to the messages?

I can summarize.  Someone conjectured that while the death of Lupin
might be hardest on JKR (who has said that Lupin is one of her
favorites) and on some of the fans, the death that would obviously hit
*Harry* the hardest would be for Sirius to die.  This is all in response
to JKR saying that one of the upcoming deaths (presumably Book 5) was
going to "half-crucify" her to write.  Whoever posited the Sirius theory
originally argued rather persuasively that it might "half-crucify" her
to write about Sirius' death if for no other reason than the effect of
that death on Harry.

I'm still hoping that it won't be Sirius but .... the above argument is
a good one.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Tue Nov  7 00:43:57 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 00:43:57 -0000
Subject: Tom Felton
Message-ID: <006401c04853$d4443860$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5266

Hi all

I don't recall all that much discussion regarding Tom Felton (who is to play
Draco Malfoy in the movie).   So, I thought I would tell you a little about
Tom.

Tom Felton has 3 brothers (don't ask me their names as I don't know that
much).
He attended Cranmore School, in Leatherhead (Surrey, UK) - not sure what
school he goes to now, he may still go there as he is 13 now, so could be in
top year at school. ( http://www.isis.org.uk/data/0273.htm )
He has a Chinchilla (I think that's how you spell it - a type of dog) who is
called Stanley
He likes eating... particularly Pizza.
He also likes Football and Rollerskating.

He wants to end up being someone who is half like Macaulay Culkin and half
like Pierce Brosnan - he likes action stuff.

Movie Credits:
The Borrowers (1997) - Part: Peagreen    Tom was 9 at the time of filming
(1996)
Anna and the King (1999) - Part: Louis

Anyone else got any info on Tom?

Nick.




From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 00:41:51 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 00:41:51 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grades & Head Boy/Head Girl
In-Reply-To: <3A074C40.ECED48B8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <B62D004F.7B4E%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5267

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer at pennylin at swbell.net wrote:

> Head Boy & Head Girl are not necessarily the best students in the class
> in any given year (I don't think -- Brits can correct me if I'm wrong).
> I doubt it works that James is Head Boy & Lily is Head Girl
> automatically if the class standings were thus: James, Sirius, Remus,
> Lily, Severus, etc.  I think there's more to it than just the best
> marks, although I'm sure that grades do figure into the overall choice.

Too true. There were so many times during my school career when the Head of
School (our PC term for Head Boy...) was picked because he was a rugger
bugger (trans: fixated on rugby) or because the Headmaster liked him. The
ability to form a coherent sentence was less important than the ability to
look imposing in Chapel to quiet people down. Fortunately, when I was in the
Upper Sixth (US: Senior year), one of my best friends was HB, and actually
had two braincells to rub together.

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Nov  7 00:43:58 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:43:58 -0500
Subject: OT, but genre related: Obituary: L. Sprague de Camp.
References: <973544299.3525@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A075050.D46BDA73@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5268

Fantasy & Science fiction author L. Sprague de Camp died early this
morning after an extended illness.  He had been hospitalized for a week.
 His wife Catherine Crook de Camp died in April.  They had been born in
the same year as well.

Old time readers may remember that de Camp and Fletcher Pratt
collaborated on the Harold Shea stories, also kown as "The Incompleat
Enchanter" (and later "The Compleat Enchanter") series, beginning with
"The Mathematics of Magic" wherein the hero discovered that by altering
his perception of the universe's laws, he would slip into a parallel
universe where magic of some form worked - and in the course of a half
dozen adventures, he found himself in several of earth's mythologies.

-Brooks A Rowlett



From donnadr at gte.net  Tue Nov  7 01:33:05 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:33:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
References: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00a001c0485a$cbcc6340$ad9b193f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 5269

Congratulations, Penny...

Donna Rae
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
  To: HPforGrownups 
  Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 3:03 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement


  Hi --

  I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone as it does
  affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm expecting our first
  baby in April -- we had the 4 month diagnostic ultrasound this morning,
  and everything looks great!  It's a girl (or so they say anyway --
  little less definite with those girls).  And no, even though I *was*
  going to name a boy Harry (it's a family name too!), I'm not naming her
  Hermione or Joanne.  I am thinking her nursery will have plenty of
  HP-related things though.  :--)

  I expect to remain as fully-involved with the group as I can after she
  arrives, but having known lots of new moms, I'm fairly confident that I
  will be less involved than I am now for at least the first few months.
  So, I am checking with a few of our active members to see if anyone is
  interested in helping poor Melanie out with any admin issues (if you're
  interested, let me know!).

  Oh, and yes, my chapter/character summary will be done ahead of time so
  that Carole can post it if the baby arrives early.  And, yes, ASA will
  get finished -- no need to worry about that either.  Oh, and the FAQs .
  . . I'm *nearly* done with my grouping (cough . . . well, "nearly" might
  be strong but I can most certainly finish them in 5.5 months).  <g>

  Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 01:39:48 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 01:39:48 -0000
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
In-Reply-To: <3A062312.D38E8E64@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u7mh4+72cj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5270

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> You will, of course, take pictures for those of us who can't get out 
of Texas
> (no matter how hard they try...)?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
I'll do my best. My camera is Dinky-with-a-capital-d, and I don't know 
if there'll be too much reflection off the window glass.

Pictures of the interior decorations and the tree, fer shure.

ht




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 01:44:38 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 01:44:38 -0000
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
In-Reply-To: <8u6026+tbn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u7mq6+v80d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5271

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nick at d... wrote:
> Oh cool... I'm in Chicago for a day in a few weeks time (on the 17th 
> in fact).  Will have to persuade my boss to let me take a brief 
> shopping trip at Marshall Field's.
> 
Tell your boss that MUST go to Field's because your SO/mom/etc. will 
skin you alive if you don't come back with a box of Frangos...

ht
(my favorite is raspberry)




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Tue Nov  7 01:58:33 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:58:33 -0000
Subject: Marshall Fields
Message-ID: <00a001c0485e$3f7a9de0$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5272

Hi all

I've put a request in to my boss to make time in my tight schedule so that I
can visit Marshall Fields store in Chicago.

If anyone gets to see their window displays, please do post pictures - as I
can't guarantee that I will get time to visit, even though I have a meeting
not more than 20 miles from the place!

http://marshallfields.com/events/

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Tue Nov  7 02:00:27 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 02:00:27 -0000
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
Message-ID: <00ad01c0485e$80da74e0$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5273

>Tell your boss that MUST go to Field's because your SO/mom/etc. will 
>skin you alive if you don't come back with a box of Frangos...

OK... so what are Frangos?

Nick.
(The Brit who does not know what a Frango is)




From zsenya at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 02:03:34 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:03:34 -0000
Subject: Snape (Amanda's favorite character)
In-Reply-To: <3A070280.C89E9548@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u7ntm+th0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5274

> Welcome, Zsenya, and I love your name, but you didn't mention Snape! 
Aaagh!
> What are your thoughts on *my* favorite character (well, him and 
Lupin)?
> 
> --Amanda

Firstly, thanks for the compliment on the name. I will come out and 
confess now that my real name is actually Jennie.  However, there are 
so many Jens, Jennies and Jennifers on the internet that I chose long 
ago to use "Zsenya" (which is a nickname from several friends) as my 
official e-mail and internet name, so there it is.

Hmmmm... I will have to go back and try to read some of the other 
posts. Snape is your favorite character? May I ask why (I'm not 
being judgmental - I really want to know why!) He has always puzzled 
me.  I mean, Dumbledore trusts him for some reason, yet he is so 
obviously not entirely trustworthy.  I mean, he completely tried to 
get Sirius kissed by the Dementor, which is totally and utterly evil, 
when he knew that there might be more to the story.  So what happened 
in the past to put him in the "trustworthy" category?  I guess only 
time (and books 5 - 7) will tell.

I like Lupin too.  I think he is cuddly, despite being a Werewolf.




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Tue Nov  7 02:13:10 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:13:10 -0000
Subject: A really strange thought
Message-ID: <8u7ofm+g61k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5275

AS i was sitting here lurking in the loft reading the posts when it 
hit me, a very strange thought. First welcome Zsenya and I agree 
with you Dumbledore will die in an Obi Wan Kenobe way, but 
Percy going to the darkside..... Here is where I disagree he is too 
much of a Crouch (being a Potterhead or Harry'o'holic I call 
people characters), he is too into rules and being perfect, but 
here is the strange thought. It hit me while watching the Matrix, 
Ron will be lured to the darkside for fame of his own, he will be 
the Ludo Bagman of his time, he wont know he is doing it but he 
will and he will then work hard to correct his mistake. Maybe, 
maybe not but it would fit. 

On another note I was wondering if all dark wizards were from 
Slytheran or just most, because Peter Petigrew was in with 3 
Gryffindors, was he one or just hanging with them? There isn't 
much interhouse mingling in the current timeframe.

Thanks just wanted to share instead of spy.

Dave




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 02:17:21 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:17:21 -0000
Subject: HP at Marshall Field's!
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c0485e$80da74e0$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8u7onh+7uu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5276

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Nick Mitchell" <nick at d...> wrote:

> OK... so what are Frangos?
> 
Frangos are chocolates. Very rich, very delicious. So rich, you can 
only eat one or two at a time. They've been made by Field's for 
decades. The original configuration was dark chocolate mints, but now 
there are toffee, raspberry, and other flavors. I usually bring a box 
when I go to visit out-of-town friends. 

<rant>
They used to be made on the 13th floor of the Field's store -- Field's 
Candy Kitchen -- but the evil Death Eater's who run Dayton-Hudson's 
decided to move the candy making to some plant in Pennsylvania. That 
the Candy Kitchen was union and the PA plant wasn't had nothing to do 
with the decision, right?
</rant>


ht





From zsenya at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 02:20:34 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:20:34 -0000
Subject: Not A Children's Book
In-Reply-To: <005d01c04839$66898c40$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8u7oti+qf54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5277

Hello and thanks for the welcomes....
> 
> Oh I disagree... they are more than that.  They are family enjoyment 
books - can be read by people, be they 8, or 80.

Yes, I suppose that is a better way of looking at things! I guess what 
I was trying to say, well, I don't really know what I was trying to 
say.  I think the writing style is very much in the style of young 
adult books (Harry Potter was a very unusual boy.  He was a wizard, 
etc. etc.)  I think that since Harry Potter starts out as age 11 in 
the first book, that book is written sort of at an 11 year-old level. 
 And I think that although JK Rowling may write for herself, she is 
also very aware that a large portion of the readers are children and 
that parents will have to read these books to their children (I think 
she mentioned in an interview somewhere reading the last chapters of 
GoF to her daughter) so she will most likely write in a way that will 
interest the children and interest the adults as well.  ARGHHG. I'm 
not explaining this very well, but I guess I am agreeing with you!

 
> I think there are different levels to the books.  You can read the 
book once and get the gist of the story... but then you read it again 
and you pick up on more of the detail... the comedy, and you see how 
something in an early chapter is vital to something later on.


Yes, this is very true, as I have discovered reading each of them 
several times alrady.  What I meant by straightforward is that we 
know that there is good and evil.  We know pretty much who is good 
and evil and we know that the goal is to conquer the evil part 
somehow.  How that is done may be extremely complex.  JK Rowling's 
filing system of character notes and timelines must be amazing!

:)Zsenya




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 02:17:32 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:17:32 -0600
Subject: Extra Fat Lady Bookends Taken
Message-ID: <3A07663C.24837930@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5278

Hi --

My extra set of Fat Lady bookends have been gobbled up already.  :--)

Penny




From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 02:20:38 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:20:38 +0000
Subject: Dark Wizards' Houses (was: A really strange thought)
In-Reply-To: <8u7ofm+g61k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B62D1776.7B63%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5279

eliasberg at ioc.net at eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> On another note I was wondering if all dark wizards were from
> Slytheran or just most, because Peter Petigrew was in with 3
> Gryffindors, was he one or just hanging with them? There isn't
> much interhouse mingling in the current timeframe.

In PS/SS, Hagrid says something along the lines of "Every Dark Wizard was in
Slytherin." However, you might say, Pettigrew/Wormtail was a Gryffindor.
::pulls out the Holmes Magnifying Glass:: However, at the time of PS/SS,
Wormtail was not believed to be a Dark Wizard (until, in fact, PoA). Ergo,
QED, ipso facto, all *known* Dark Wizards except for Pettigrew were (/are!)
in Slytherin.

One question though. Does anyone else feel that Barty Crouch Jr. wasn't
really the Slytherin type?

--Crazy Ivan

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From zsenya at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 02:33:15 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:33:15 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
Message-ID: <8u7plb+nfn8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5280

Ok, I know I am new, but now that I am here, I can't stop thinking! If 
this has been discussed before, please let me know.

(Let me just say that I have quite a long commute so these types of 
things pop into my head at the strangest times!)

My question is about the death of Lily and James. I am trying to 
figure out the order of things.

I had always sort of assumed that James died first (because he was 
trying to hold off Voldemort) and then Lily, and then Voldemort tried 
to kill Harry.

However, in GoF when the shadows are coming out of the wand, doesn't 
James appear before Lily (meaning that he died afterwards?)  
Unfortunately, I don't have GoF here (I leant it to a friend) so I 
can't double-check this, but I seem to remember James appearing first 
and then saying something like "Your mother wants to see you" 

So, if I am remembering correctly, what happened? Did Voldemort kill 
Lily, start moving in on Harry, and then James came in and tried to 
stop him some more?  Would the death order matter at all? Hmmm... 
someone set me straight!




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Nov  7 02:37:29 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:37:29 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001107023729.0071829c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5281

Penny wrote:

>>>I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone as it does
>>>affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm expecting our first
>>>baby in April 

That's great news Penny - I'll add my congratulations to the pile.  

I can picture the nursery now, lined with HP merchandise. I thought perhaps
you  might be considering calling the baby Minerva? ;)

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 02:45:36 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 02:45:36 -0000
Subject: Vote! 
Message-ID: <8u7qcg+bsrv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5282

To all you Americans-

(Go Gore!!) Errr, ok I'll put my opinons aside.  No matter who you 
support please vote tomorrow.  I may not be old enough to vote  but I 
know that making your voice heard (even when it seems that it isn't) 
is important.  

Don't forget...VOTE!!!

Scott  




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 02:37:58 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:37:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James' death
References: <8u7plb+nfn8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A076B06.9A059FF2@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5283

Hi --

zsenya at yahoo.com wrote:

> My question is about the death of Lily and James. I am trying to
> figure out the order of things.

It's been discussed *alot* in the past.  You might want to search the
message archives & the message archives for our predecessor group, Yahoo
Club (Harry Potter for Grownups).  The message archives for the latter
(7500 messages) are at

http://www.egroups.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

For the new members, I should repeat that we have about 8 people
currently working on creating topical/substantive FAQs that will be
uploaded to a website "soon" (vague I know -- we're trying but this
group is very prolific).  There are about 60 FAQs at the moment --
topics ranging from characters (Harry, Hermione, Ron, Sirius,
Dumbledore, etc.), Magical Creatures, Magical Devices, Wizarding World
-- Govt, Wizarding World -- Economy, Mysteries & Inconsistencies,
Religion & HP, etc.  About 60 in all as I said.  We're hard at work --
and we have a good start on most all of them.  We may be a position to
upload some of them later this month.  We were originally shooting for
October, but the task was more daunting than any of us realized.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 02:50:44 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:50:44 -0600
Subject: Not A Children's Book
References: <8u7oti+qf54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A076E04.4DA0F8BE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5284

Hi --

zsenya at yahoo.com wrote:

> I guess what  I was trying to say, well, I don't really know what I
> was trying to  say.  I think the writing style is very much in the
> style of young  adult books (Harry Potter was a very unusual boy.  He
> was a wizard, etc. etc.)

I think that the writing style that you're quoting is really just the
first chapter or 2 of each book -- they don't all continue on in that
vein (IMO).  She does do the "recap" at the beginning of each book,
which some people enjoy and others (me) find rather tiresome.  The
"recap" does tend to be a bit juvenile in style, and it is a device that
is often employed in juvenile or young adult works.  But, I don't think
that this style continues much beyond the first few chapters of each
book really.

> I think that since Harry Potter starts out as age 11 in
> the first book, that book is written sort of at an 11 year-old level.

Well .  . . I think that's why the books got *marketed* to 9-12 yr
olds.  Someone at Bloomsbury Publishing said, "Oh, the protagonist is
11; therefore, these are children's books."  I still disagree strongly
that she wrote or is continuing to write the books for a target audience
of children.  She's said exactly the opposite in countless interviews.

> And I think that although JK Rowling may write for herself, she is
> also very aware that a large portion of the readers are children and
> that parents will have to read these books to their children (I think
> she mentioned in an interview somewhere reading the last chapters of
> GoF to her daughter) so she will most likely write in a way that will
> interest the children and interest the adults as well.

She's said that she has a story to tell, a story that she spent the last
10 yrs creating, outlining, researching & writing thus far.  She said
she has no intention of departing from that storyline, even if she loses
some of her younger readers along the way.  She is aware of her younger
readers, but she is definitely not targeting them (or making concessions
to suit their sensibilities).  She said that while she's thrilled when
parents tell her that their 6 or 7 yr old loved SS, she also thinks
that's too young because she knows where the series is headed.  I'm
personally glad that she's holding out for artistic integrity.

> What I meant by straightforward is that we  know that there is good
> and evil.  We know pretty much who is good and evil and we know that
> the goal is to conquer the evil part somehow.

Ah .... but we didn't know Sirius Black wasn't evil for quite some
time.  We're in serious doubt about the true nature of a number of
characters, including notably Snape, Fudge, Bagman.  I disagree that
things are "straight forward" in JKR's universe.

>  How that is done may be extremely complex.  JK Rowling's filing
> system of character notes and timelines must be amazing!

She showed boxes of stuff on a 60 Minutes interview -- 7 boxes in fact
from what I recall.  She's also said that there are plenty of things
that are just not making it into the books -- small details that don't
fit in for whatever reason.  I know she's planning to write a HP
Encyclopedia once the series is done -- that should be fascinating!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov  7 03:18:07 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:18:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
References: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A07746F.54CDEC28@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5285

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Hi --
>
> I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone

Congratulations, Penny, to both you and your partner.  I just wanted to add:
besides all of the wonderful standard things that people tell you a baby can
add to your life, you'll probably discover that it will have a great effect
on your writing--and I'm not just talking about the fact that you'll have
less time.  I'm talking about the fact that you'll start to see things from a
new perspective when you become a parent, AND you'll be taken back to your
own childhood at the same time.

Tip: when the baby is between 18-36 months old, a big, big pile of duplos at
Mom's feet on the office floor is one of the best tricks in your arsenal to
give you writing time.

Peg,
who has been known to type on her novel manuscript while simultaneously
nursing the baby in a sling.  It works, too, although using the mouse can be
tough.  And who once had to explain to her editor what that weird noise was
during a telephone story conference ("It's . . . um, my breast pump.")




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov  7 03:17:33 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:17:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Colin Crevy's Reign of Terror (was: Marauder  parallels)
References: <e.47ed399.2737f290@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A07744D.8391BA92@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5286



managirl19 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/5/2000 10:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> lrcjestes at msn.com writes:
>
> > Pettigrew is such a wormy guy, I would think Neville if anyone, although
> >  that would be an insult to Neville and as we found out more about Neville
> in
> >  GoF..it might be unbelievable as well.
>
> What about Colin Crevy? I was reading a fic where he turned out to have
> Vldemorts all evil powers transported to him... alright, that's not the pont,
> but it makes sense in a way. He hero worships Harry.. hmmm...

I can't remember whether it was that particular fic writer who was arguing on this
listserve that he/she was CONVINCED that Colin was going to go bad, or whether it
was someone else, but I know that theory has been floated before, and it just
baffles me.  Okay, conceivably if a whole string of events happens, beyond what
JKR has written, it could turn out that way: Harry violently tells Colin to get
lost AND throws the Goblet of Fire at his head, AND Colin happens to flunk all his
tests that term so he's in an uncharacteristically bad mood AND Colin swears
enternal revenge AND the Deatheater recruitment squad just happens to show up on
Colin's doorstep . . . ok, it's conceivable, if you want to set it out that way.
And, as the saying goes, I am the Queen of Romania.

I just don't see any support in the text for Colin to become chief of the evil
squad, any more than I see any support for the idea that Dumbledore might ditch
his academic career to try for a spot on the team as a discus thrower at the
Olympics.

At a certain point, what-ifs can be spun out so far that they bear no resemblance
to the characters the author originally created.

But I suppose that's what fan fiction is for.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov  7 03:17:42 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 21:17:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: neville's story
References: <8u6n1a+u7al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A077456.7710BD7A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5287

Karin wrote:

> "Susan McGee" wrote:
> >
> > Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
> > the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
> > use of L.V.s name..
> >
>
> I think parents probably wanted to shelter their children from the
> knowledge of all the horrible things Voldemort and the Death Eaters
> did.

Yes, we see this by the fact that Dumbledore remarks at the Leaving Feast
that he is going against many of the parents' wishes by telling the students
the truth about Cedric's death.

Peg




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Nov  7 03:41:33 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 03:41:33 -0000
Subject: Colin Crevy's Reign of Terror (was: Marauder  parallels)
In-Reply-To: <3A07744D.8391BA92@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8u7tld+1mcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5288

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> managirl19 at a... wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 11/5/2000 10:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > lrcjestes at m... writes:
> >
> > > Pettigrew is such a wormy guy, I would think Neville if anyone, 
although
> > >  that would be an insult to Neville and as we found out more 
about Neville
> > in
> > >  GoF..it might be unbelievable as well.
> >
> > What about Colin Crevy? I was reading a fic where he turned out to 
have
> > Vldemorts all evil powers transported to him... alright, that's 
not the pont,
> > but it makes sense in a way. He hero worships Harry.. hmmm...
> 
> I can't remember whether it was that particular fic writer who was 
arguing on this
> listserve that he/she was CONVINCED that Colin was going to go bad, 
or whether it
> was someone else, but I know that theory has been floated before, 
and it just
> baffles me.  Okay, conceivably if a whole string of events happens, 
beyond what
> JKR has written, it could turn out that way: Harry violently tells 
Colin to get
> lost AND throws the Goblet of Fire at his head, AND Colin happens to 
flunk all his
> tests that term so he's in an uncharacteristically bad mood AND 
Colin swears
> enternal revenge AND the Deatheater recruitment squad just happens 
to show up on
> Colin's doorstep . . . ok, it's conceivable, if you want to set it 
out that way.
> And, as the saying goes, I am the Queen of Romania.
> 
> I just don't see any support in the text for Colin to become chief 
of the evil
> squad, any more than I see any support for the idea that Dumbledore 
might ditch
> his academic career to try for a spot on the team as a discus 
thrower at the
> Olympics.
> 
> At a certain point, what-ifs can be spun out so far that they bear 
no resemblance
> to the characters the author originally created.
> 
> But I suppose that's what fan fiction is for.
> 
> Peg

While Colin and Peter "hero-worshipped" a Potter, there hasn't been 
any indication that Colin wants the protection of powerful friends, as 
Peter did (PoA, Sirius points it out). 

:-) Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Nov  7 03:51:23 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 03:51:23 -0000
Subject: Dark Wizards' Houses (was: A really strange thought)
In-Reply-To: <B62D1776.7B63%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8u7u7r+ol2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5289

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> eliasberg at i... at eliasberg at i... wrote:
> 
> > On another note I was wondering if all dark wizards were from
> > Slytheran or just most, because Peter Petigrew was in with 3
> > Gryffindors, was he one or just hanging with them? There isn't
> > much interhouse mingling in the current timeframe.
> 
> In PS/SS, Hagrid says something along the lines of "Every Dark 
Wizard was in
> Slytherin." However, you might say, Pettigrew/Wormtail was a 
Gryffindor.
> ::pulls out the Holmes Magnifying Glass:: However, at the time of 
PS/SS,
> Wormtail was not believed to be a Dark Wizard (until, in fact, PoA). 
Ergo,
> QED, ipso facto, all *known* Dark Wizards except for Pettigrew were 
(/are!)
> in Slytherin.
> 
> One question though. Does anyone else feel that Barty Crouch Jr. 
wasn't
> really the Slytherin type?
> 
> --Crazy Ivan

In PoA and GoF, Sirius reveals that many Death Eaters were never 
caught. Perhaps Hagrid is basing his statement upon his knowledge of 
the "known" Death Eaters, such as Lucius Malfoy and Voldemort.

I agree that Crouch Jr probably wasn't the Slytherin type, which is 
why Dumbledore told Harry he didn't know if Crouch Jr was guilty of 
the charges. What puzzles me is how Snape immediately recognized 
Crouch Jr. According to Sirius, Crouch Jr was about 17 or 18 when he 
was imprisoned. Did Snape know him from Hogwarts? (If we could find 
this out, then we could figure out the Marauder's ages!) 

:-)Milz




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Nov  7 04:03:25 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:03:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry
References: <8ttj0c+3l4f@eGroups.com> <3A02D199.2E27E9B8@swbell.net> <047601c046d9$dd84f660$29c54b0c@cq5wu> <011201c04766$9e986e40$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <00b501c0486f$ae1a41e0$71c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5290


----- Original Message -----
From: "Aberforths_Goat" <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Death of Harry


> > Good grief, Caius--if you ever need a job, I've got a pal down in Sicily
> who'd hire you any day of the week. It's a little messy and job security
is
> low, but the pay isn't bad and the cop's give you a long holiday is they
> catch you. (I should know. I grew up there; they gunned down my neighbor.)
>
> But honestly--Draco? Crabbe & Goyle Junior? Sure they're jerks, but we
can't
> start slaughtering minors. And all the Marauders, bar none? Heck--can't we
> keep at least one, just to sob at the funeral?
>
> Sheeesh!
>
> Baaaaaaaing in disbelief
>
Yes, of course, you are correct - instead of killing any other characters in
Books Five-Seven, Voldemort will show his unimaginable evil by causing huge
unsightly warts to appear on the noses of his opponents.

    - CM (long live John Webster!) C






From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Nov  7 03:58:25 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 03:58:25 -0000
Subject: many many replies (was Neville, gen parallels, trivia, canary creams, fanfic)
In-Reply-To: <8u7blu+o78r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u7ul1+osf6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5291

Susan McGee wrote: 
> I thought James and Lily were head boy and head girl -- am I 
dreaming 
> that?

You're not dreaming! Hagrid tells Harry and the Dursleys that tidbit 
in PS/SS.

:-)Milz





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Nov  7 04:02:53 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 04:02:53 -0000
Subject: WB Merchandise Update; Civic Duty to Vote (partially OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A074B2E.9414233D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u7utd+mqc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5292

Whoa! When I was quickly scanning through the titles, I read this 
thread as "WB Merchandise: Civic Duty to Buy". Made me do a 
double-take! hee hee

8-)Milz 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I spoke to Warner Bros. just now about the sheet sets.  I don't own 
any
> full-size or twin beds, but was interested in buying the 
pillow-cases
> separately.  No such luck.  They aren't selling them like that, and
> noone seems to know if they will develop queen & king sizes 
eventually.
> 
> I did talk to someone in customer service about the state of the 
website
> (things that you could swear were on there suddenly disappear).  She
> confirmed that if something sells out, they remove it entirely from 
the
> website (rather than just saying, here's the item & it's sold out). 
 She
> indicated that the Nimbus ornaments that are still listed in the 
print
> catalogues *are* sold out.  I was complaining to her because I 
couldn't
> find one on their website last night (& noone got me one for my
> birthday).  So, I went to ebay and paid $20 to win one.  The 
catalogue
> that I received in the mail today was listing them for $10, and I 
was
> about ready to shoot myself.  But, customer service says that they 
are
> definitely sold out and likely will not be getting anymore in.  She 
said
> that demand is far exceeding supply on most of the HP merchandise 
out
> there (are they feeding demand by keeping supplies low or did they 
just
> badly misestimate??  Hmm).  So, if you're a collector and/or want to
> make some money off the rest of us suckers, I'd strongly suggest 
that
> you stockpile what you want or want to sell.
> 
> If none of you guys want my extra set of Fat Lady bookends, I may 
end up
> listing them on ebay!  <g>
> 
> I think I may email the person that Nick posted about earlier today 
--
> they really need to know about the adult market (i.e., queen & king 
size
> sheets would be nice!).
> 
> VOTE: While I've got the bully pulpit momentarily, I will state my
> opinion that every U.S. citizen eligible to vote should do so
> tomorrow!!  If you live in one of the "battleground" states, your 
vote
> WILL count!  Exercise it!   We don't see elections this close very 
often
> -- it's of critical importance this year.
> 
> Penny




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 04:28:19 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 04:28:19 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <8u7qcg+bsrv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5293

Okay, if you're in Michigan and you plan on voting for Gov. Bush, let 
me tell you that I have deep respect for you, but wouldn't you 
rather spend the day in Canada at a luxury resort, having a massage, 
luxuriating in the hot tub? Never mind voting -- email me privately
and I'll arrange it for you...

If you're in Michigan and plan on voting for Al Gore, let me know if 
you need a ride to the polls, (hot tub and massage to follow).....

If you are thinking about voting for Ralph Nader, don't soil yourself
by engaging in the useless exercise of voting. There's no difference
between the Republican and the Democrat -- right? --- so spend the day
taking care of yourself, and meditating. Don't even think of 
participating in a corrupt, futile system.

Susan




From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 04:31:35 2000
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:31:35 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vote! 
Message-ID: <76.49d5715.2738dfa7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5294

Yes, I sure will!  See you Nader...I mean later!  hehe
~shahara in wi

<< (Go Gore!!) Errr, ok I'll put my opinons aside.  No matter who you 
 support please vote tomorrow.  >>



From rhiannon8404 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 05:12:20 2000
From: rhiannon8404 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:12:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
Message-ID: <20001107051220.6720.qmail@web1503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5295


Penny wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I just wanted to share our good news of the day with
> everyone as it does
> affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm
> expecting our first
> baby in April -- we had the 4 month diagnostic
> ultrasound this morning,
> and everything looks great!  It's a girl (or so they
> say anyway --
> little less definite with those girls).  And no,
> even though I *was*
> going to name a boy Harry (it's a family name too!),
> I'm not naming her
> Hermione or Joanne.  I am thinking her nursery will
> have plenty of
> HP-related things though.  :--)

Oh, Penny, Congratulations! Being a mom is so much
fun! You just never realized how much your mom loved
you until you are one. 

So you think it might be a girl...well, Lily is a
lovely name...

Wishing you a health and as comfortable as possible
pregnancy!

Elizabeth (mom to Charlie who has just entered the
Terrific Twos (really they are) and needs his Thomas
(the Tank Engine) "Righ now, Mommy, righ now, righ
now, righ now."

=====
Elizabeth (Rhiannon8404)

******************************
She is like a cat in the dark
And then she is the darkness.
******************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov  7 06:04:18 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 00:04:18 -0600
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part one
Message-ID: <3A079B62.8426EAE1@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5296

Okay, here's the first part of my report.  I'll also post in the Files
section I describe in this email.

For those of you who just joined us, I live in Minneapolis, where the
Dayton's department store got exclusive world rights to do a figurine
"show" of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.  Dayton's is owned by
the same company (Target) that owns Marshall Fields in Chicago, who is
doing the store display windows that someone had commented on.  I
suspect that the same people worked on designing both displays, or that
the figures themselves may be the same.

I believe that several hundred thousand people will view the Dayton's
display.  I went to see it this past Saturday, and I tried to take
pictures with my digital camera.  I regret to say that the pictures are
not the best.  First of all, the auditorium is painted black and the
lighting is rather dim, which is not particularly condusive to picture
taking.  In addition, many of the figures are moving figures, which
makes focusing difficult.  There were crowds, which made it difficult to
snap pictures without heads getting in the way.  Also, the aisles were a
bit narrow, so it was sometimes difficult to step back far enough to
compose the picture (esp. without heads getting in the way).  And if you
stepped really far back, the dimness of the lighting became more of a
problem.

Anyway, I did my best.

Visitors are handed a paper flyer introducing the show and then directed
to the entrance hallway.  I browsed through the flyer quickly; it was a
quick thumbnail sketch of the plot, with information about the gift shop
and other Dayton's events on the back.  I was at first amused and then a
little weirded out to note that most character and place names in the
flyer had the little "TM" (trademark) after them: "On the Hogwarts
Express, Harry Potter(TM) meets two of his schoolmates and soon-to-be
best friends, Ron Weasley(TM) and Hermione Granger(TM)."  I can
understand why they did this, but it certainly emphasized the impression
that WB views these characters we love so much as products.

While walking down a long hallway to the auditorium, visitors see many
things are painted on this entrance hallway, but I only took pictures of
five:

Picture1:
Owl Post Insignia

Picture 2:
Slytherin Shield

Picture 3:
Hufflepuff Shield

Picture 4:
Gryffindor Shield

Picture 5:
Ravenclaw Shield

At this point, the visitor enters the auditorium.  To call it an
"auditorium" is rather misleading, however: you walk along a path which
wanders back and forth, and on each side of you, you see scenes from
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, in order.  Scenes pop out at you
from unexpected angles, and later on, you also have to look above
yourself, to see figures suspended on invisible wires on broomsticks
"flying" overhead.

The atmosphere was set by two things: one was a delicious smell.  It
made me think of Halloween/Christmas.  Pumpkin juice, I thought.  Are
they serving pumpkin juice?  I found out the source at the end of the
display: they were baking gingerbread cookies on-site for people to buy,
and the aroma seemed perfect for the occasion.

The other thing was the music.  It was not so loud so as to be
obtrusive, but it also added pleasantly to the experience.  It was
something stirring, exciting, something that would make a terrific
accompaniment to a really good quidditch game.  Although I had never
heard the melody before, I could swear it was John Williams--it had that
brass-and-strings Boston Pops sound.  I believe that he is going to be
doing the soundtrack to the movie--perhaps he has already composed some
of it and they used it here?  I know that this show was done in
conjunction with Warner Brother's input.

The design of the show is clearly based on the conception displayed in
the merchandise coming out from Andrews McMeel Publishing, that you see
in the calendars, posters, etc.

Okay, so you go through the first archway, where the show starts, and
you start to see the figures, which are about oh, I'd say 1/2 to 3/4
human size (well, except for Hagrid, of course)

Picture 6 and 7:
Hagrid and Dumbledore meet in front of Number 4 Privet Drive (Prof.
McGonnagall is there as a cat).  Hagrid is astride the flying motorcyle,
and holds baby Harry.

Picture 8:
Petunia Dursley finds baby Harry on her front doorstep (you may not be
able to tell with this picture's resolution, but she's wearing bunny
slippers).  My daughter reached forward and parted the blankets to see
baby Harry, and reported that the scar was there on his forehead.

Picture 9 (NOT POSTED, TOO DARK):
Harry in his under the stairs cupboard.  There is a spider suspended
above his outstretched hand, which raises and lowers itself.

Picture 10:
In the Dursley's living room, on the occasion of Dudley's birthday.  I
managed to cut off most of Petunia's head, alas.  Dudley is having a
tantrum on the floor.  The front door is to the left (out of the frame
of the picture), where a flood of letters are pouring through the letter
slot (I attempted a picture, but it turned out to be too dark.

Picture 11:
Harry, Hagrid and Dudley, rather blurry, in the shack by the sea.  It
was difficult to frame this one because Hagrid was so big.  Dudley is
spinning around on the floor (with a pig's tail sticking out of his
trousers).  Sausages hang out of Hagrid's pockets.  Harry stands to one
side, finally reading his Hogwarts letter, with an amazed look on his
face.

I'm going to stop here for the night.

[Jim (or Penny), the pictures I have posted so far have taken up a fair
amount of memory. Are we really limited to that stated 20480KB limit, or
can our limit be upped?  I don't want to take all the available space.
Please clarify, so I can know whether I can post more later.]

Peg




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 10:36:30 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:36:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoU and Draco Dormiens in German!
References: <8u739t+gb95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c048a6$98f8ff40$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5297

> *blinks in stunned shock* Are you SURE? Erm, I couldn't get that link
> to work but the whole concept seems bizarre to me. Why anyone would
> bother to translate DD is a mystery to me (although I have now had
> versions of the Chimney Sweep Song in French and Spanish sent to me).
> Um, how did you find that so I can go forth and look myself?

Sorry for the crazy URL.  It was supposed to take you directly to the fanfic
translation page.  Try this one instead:

http://www.harry-auf-deutsch.de/

Apparently, they had 500 people involved in the GoF translation project by
the time they finished.  They've set up an interesting system: you "buy"
your copy of the translation by signing up to do a piece yourself. After
they receive your finished work, they send you the entire corpus. I suppose
it's illegal (certainly the GoF part; what's the copyright status of
fanfiction??), but I can't help admiring their fanaticism. And it's rather
comforting to know that we aren't the only nut cases in the hemisphere ...

BTW, if you mention that you're the author, perhaps they'll give you a
translation for free. <sardonic grin>

Baaaaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Tue Nov  7 10:52:14 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:52:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Wizards' Houses (was: A really strange thought)
Message-ID: <20001107105214.24231.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5298

[snip]
> In PS/SS, Hagrid says something along the lines of
> "Every Dark Wizard was in
> Slytherin." However, you might say,
> Pettigrew/Wormtail was a Gryffindor.
> ::pulls out the Holmes Magnifying Glass:: However,
> at the time of PS/SS,
> Wormtail was not believed to be a Dark Wizard
> (until, in fact, PoA). Ergo,
> QED, ipso facto, all *known* Dark Wizards except for
> Pettigrew were (/are!)
> in Slytherin.
[snip]
Sirius Black was/is thought to be a Dark Wizard.  I
think Hagrid was generalizing.


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Tue Nov  7 13:33:38 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laura Arrick)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:33:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
Message-ID: <sa07be6b.018@ayc-2.yazaki-na.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5299

Does the hot tub and massage offer count if I've already voted? lol (especially since I voted for Gore - please, please!)

Laurie

>>> Schlobin at aol.com 11/06/00 11:28PM >>>
Okay, if you're in Michigan and you plan on voting for Gov. Bush, let 
me tell you that I have deep respect for you, but wouldn't you 
rather spend the day in Canada at a luxury resort, having a massage, 
luxuriating in the hot tub? Never mind voting -- email me privately
and I'll arrange it for you...

If you're in Michigan and plan on voting for Al Gore, let me know if 
you need a ride to the polls, (hot tub and massage to follow).....

If you are thinking about voting for Ralph Nader, don't soil yourself
by engaging in the useless exercise of voting. There's no difference
between the Republican and the Democrat -- right? --- so spend the day
taking care of yourself, and meditating. Don't even think of 
participating in a corrupt, futile system.

Susan



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com 







From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 14:34:47 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:34:47 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcement
In-Reply-To: <20001107051220.6720.qmail@web1503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B62DADEA.7B8A%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5300

Elizabeth at rhiannon8404 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Elizabeth (mom to Charlie who has just entered the
> Terrific Twos (really they are) and needs his Thomas
> (the Tank Engine) "Righ now, Mommy, righ now, righ
> now, righ now."

Elizabeth, be afraid -- your son is turning into Hagrid :)

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Tue Nov  7 14:51:03 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 7 Nov 2000 14:51:03 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <973608663.23958@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5301


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Club Humour/Cleaning the Mouse.gif 
  Uploaded by : gypsycaine at yahoo.com 
  Description : This is for Neil! *Thanks for the great laugh during chat!* 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Club+Humour/Cleaning+the+Mouse%2Egif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

gypsycaine at yahoo.com
 






From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 15:42:17 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:42:17 -0000
Subject: Grades & Head Boy/Head Girl
In-Reply-To: <3A074C40.ECED48B8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u97sp+u6sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5302

Penny wrote:  

"Head Boy & Head Girl are not necessarily the best students in the 
class in any given year (I don't think -- Brits can correct me if I'm 
wrong). I doubt it works that James is Head Boy & Lily is Head Girl 
automatically if the class standings were thus: James, Sirius, Remus, 
Lily, Severus, etc.  I think there's more to it than just the best
marks, although I'm sure that grades do figure into the overall 
choice."

At my old school, the Head Boy or Girl were good students, but not 
necessarily the top of the year (we didn't have a 'top of the year' 
student in any case because everyone does differently in each subject 
and people don't study the same subjects).  They had to be 
sufficiently academically able so that they could do all the extra 
duties without their work suffering, but their character and what 
they'd done extra-curriculum were more important.  They were supposed 
to be willing to follow and uphold the rules, be charismatic, heavily 
involved in school life, and generally be fine upstanding people.  
They were chosen from among the Prefects; you couldn't be Head Boy 
unless you had been a Prefect first.  I suspect this is also true of 
Hogwarts.   

-Blaise.      




From eliasheldon at ivillage.com  Tue Nov  7 16:17:57 2000
From: eliasheldon at ivillage.com (eliasheldon at ivillage.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:17:57 -0000
Subject: neville's story
In-Reply-To: <8u5ls9+sltp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u99vl+4lu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5303

I agree with the other people who posted, I think that it makes sense 
that Ron and the others don't know what happened to the Longbottoms.

A related theory came to mind when I read this post:  Perhaps Neville 
has had a memory charm placed on him.  His poor memory is mentioned 
several times throughout the canon.  Perhaps he actually witnessed 
the torturing and had to have his memory modified (even as a small 
boy).  He might have had his memory modified by those who had 
tortured his parents so that he could not bear witness against them.  
Or, he might have had his memory modified by doctors who thought that 
this memory would cause problems for him when he grew up.  Perhaps 
that is why Dumbledore insists that Harry know the truth, because he 
sees what memory charms have done to people and doesn't like the 
resuolt. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

BTW - Congratulations, Penny, on your great news!  I am really happy 
for you and your husband!


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> We had a thread a while back about why few knew that Lord
> Voldemort had once been Tom Riddle at Hogwarts.
> 
> What is more unbelievable is that none of his classmates
> knew Neville's parents' story.
> 
> In GoF we learn that Frank Longbottom was an Auror and
> he had his wife were tortured with the Cruciatus curse
> by the Lestranges and Barty Crouch, Jr. to find the
> whereabouts of L.V. We hear that the wizard/witch world
> was enraged (because they thought they were safe after the demise 
of 
> L.V). We find out that Frank and his wife are insane and 
> don't know Neville and that Neville is raised by his grandmother
> and visits them periodically.
> 
> What strains credulity is that no one told Ron Weasley about this..
> not his parents or his brothers...we hear that the Longbottoms
> were popular...etc..
> 
> No one has told Ron not to question neville?
> 
> Dumbledore tells harry and then tells him not to question neville,
> but this should have been something that was common knowledge...
> 
> Was there a conspiracy of silence, not to tell the children
> the horrors of L.V. Yet Ron knows enough to be shocked by harry's
> use of L.V.s name..
> 
> ???
> 
> Susan




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 16:30:40 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:30:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP at Marshall Field's!
References: <00ad01c0485e$80da74e0$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A082E30.B9805BFE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5304

Nick Mitchell wrote:

> OK... so what are Frangos?
>
> Nick.
> (The Brit who does not know what a Frango is)

Don't be feeling bad; I'm a Texan (native, that is) and have no idea either.
Some Yankee thing, probably.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 16:34:07 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:34:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape (Amanda's favorite character)
References: <8u7ntm+th0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A082EFF.29E75983@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5305

zsenya at yahoo.com wrote:

> Hmmmm... I will have to go back and try to read some of the other
> posts. Snape is your favorite character? May I ask why (I'm not
> being judgmental - I really want to know why!) He has always puzzled
> me.  I mean, Dumbledore trusts him for some reason, yet he is so
> obviously not entirely trustworthy.  I mean, he completely tried to
> get Sirius kissed by the Dementor, which is totally and utterly evil,
> when he knew that there might be more to the story.  So what happened
> in the past to put him in the "trustworthy" category?  I guess only
> time (and books 5 - 7) will tell.

Well, you've pretty much answered your own question, here. I like Snape
because he's got lots of depth and complexity, and most of what he does
seems to have multiple motives. He's pretty clearly got a History, which
equally clearly affects how he reacts to events day-to-day. And I do get the
feeling that at base, he's got his own code of honor and principles, which
may differ radically from everyone else's, but from which he does not
deviate. Those who trust Snape are those who understand his personal code.
But for those of us who don't know his past or his ethics, he's fascinating
and unpredictable.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 16:43:13 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:43:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
References: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A083121.88375D36@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5306

Susan McGee wrote:

> Okay, if you're in Michigan and you plan on voting for Gov. Bush, let
> me tell you that I have deep respect for you, but wouldn't you
> rather spend the day in Canada at a luxury resort, having a massage,
> luxuriating in the hot tub? Never mind voting -- email me privately
> and I'll arrange it for you...

Too late. One vote for Bush, already registered. But I'm in Texas, anyway.

--Amanda, whose 5-year-old is torqued that she can't vote yet




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 16:44:10 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:44:10 EST
Subject: URL help
Message-ID: <a1.cb1e049.27398b5a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5307


In a message dated 11/6/00 10:03:40 PM, Peg writes:

>[Jim (or Penny), the pictures I have posted so far have taken up a fair
>amount of memory. Are we really limited to that stated 20480KB limit, or
>can our limit be upped?  

Help! I'm getting the news as a digest - what is the URL to see pictures???
Chronologically challenged, 

Aylihael

? We are the ones who chase pixies,
Run with the unicorns, Dance with the faeries,
Sing with the sirens, Soar with the phoenixes,
And swim with the mermaids.
We are the ones who  believe in the Unbelievable.
We are the ones who dare to dream.?
~author unknown



From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 17:19:39 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:19:39 -0000
Subject: shark flavored Fudge
In-Reply-To: <200011051820.eA5IKxC06634@sm4.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8u9djb+9uue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5308

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ryan Goertz" <rgoertz at a...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
>    Just a quick observation here. At the end of Goblet of Fire when 
we see Fudge trying to
> deny the return of Voldemort it reminded me of the town mayor in 
the Jaws films always
> trying to deny the existance of the shark to keep the local economy 
going. As, we saw
> it never worked and eventually bit him on the ass.
> 
 Good point, Ryan.  I agree that Fudge is supposed to be exactly that 
sort of *head in the sand* politician.  Thats why many people have 
compared Fudge with Neville Chamberlain, the British pre-WWII prime 
minister who had the same attitude towards the Nazis.  Another 
possible example is those brilliant guys running NASA in the 1980s, 
who did not want to cancel a shuttle launch because they were afraid 
that it would affect NASAs funding, so they let the Challenger lift 
off despite the reports of possible danger due to cold weather.  Oops.

This analysis implies that at some point Voldy will be parading 
around with Fudges head on a stick, so to speak.  I cant say that I 
will feel all that sorry for him.

-- Joywitch, who is not feeling very sympathetic towards politicians 
today, since she still has 5 local elections in which to figure out 
which one is marginally less evil.




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 17:22:14 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:22:14 -0000
Subject: More clippings from The Daily Prophet
Message-ID: <8u9do6+ikcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5309

    CLIPPINGS FROM THE DAILY PROPHET

Some of you may not have a subscription to The Daily Prophet so I 
thought I'd send you a few clippings just to let you know some of the 
stuff going on in the wizarding world.
============================ 
A BREAKUP SOUGHT FOR WEASLEY INDUSTRIES

Neville Longbottom the head of the antitrust division of the 
department of magic said today that his department was charging 
Weasley Industries with anti competitive practices. Weasley 
Industries is the parent company of Weasley's Wizard Wheezes the 
phenomenally successful chain of joke shops that has made Fred and 
George Weasley the two richest wizards in the world. The brothers 
opened one tiny shop in Hogsmead less than 5 years ago and their 
growth has been nothing less than astonishing. Today they dominate, 
some say monopolize, the entire joke industry.

In a press conference today minister Longbottom said "The company has 
engaged in predatory pricing and other unfair monopolistic practices. 
Every jokester feels that having a good supply of Canary Creams and 
Ton Tongue Toffee is absolutely essential, so in it must be admitted  
brilliant marketing move, the Weasley brothers started to gave away 
Whoopee Cushions and plastic vomit with each purchase. Independent 
producers like International Whoopee Cushion and Asia Pacific Plastic 
Vomit just could not compete with a tie in with fundamental products 
that every prankster is virtually forced to buy. Their main retail 
competitor, Zonkos joke shop, tried to counter with Peanut Parrots 
and Big Tongue Gum but the Weasley's successfully sued Zonkos for 
patent infringement and Zonkos was forced to file for bankruptcy, 
leaving the brothers virtually the only remaining force in this

Continued on page A6
============================
advertisement 

The musical stylings of Percy Weasley have made him the most popular 
singer of romantic ballads of his generation, now this beloved 
minstrel he has written a book of tender love poems. "It Might Be 
Verse" is available at all Flourish And Blots locations. 
============================
continued from page 1

very important sector of our economy." The ministry is trying to 
force Weasley Industries to split into two companies that would 
compete with each other. In a statement to reporters Fred Weasley 
said "From the beginning all my brother and I have tried to do is 
make a funny product that a jokester can afford. We think it's a pity 
minister Longbottom does not understand this but we look forward to 
proving it in a court of law". If a out of court settlement can not 
be agreed on a long and very complicated trial could start in about a 
year.

============================= 
A New Malfoy Movie

Actor Draco Malfoy has signed to play the title character in 
"Martin Miggs the Mad Muggle", the movie based on the first of the 
Martin Miggs series of children's books that has become the fastest 
selling book of all time. Mr. Malfoy is best known for his work in 
the 7 part historical mini series "The Harry Potter Story", he played 
the part of Dobby. 

Martin Miggs in the books is a little boy who can do no witchcraft 
but overcomes all sorts of exotic and fanciful dangers with nothing 
to help him but intelligence and courage. Mr. Malfoy is 23 years old 
but due to a unfortunate accident during a unsuccessful attempt to 
make another Philosopher's Stone he looks like he's about 12. The 
latest book in this controversial series is "Martin Miggs And The Tax 
Audit" and is considered by many to be too frightening for younger 
readers. Conservative wizards, including Mr. Malfoy's own father, 
also claim that by having the hero solve problems without sorcery the 
series promotes un-wizarding values and is corrupting our youth. Mr. 
Malfoy's only comment was "A job is a job".  
 
=============================     

A PROFESSOR RESIGNS  

Severus Snape the potions master at Hogwarts has resigned from that 
school so he could accept the position of Vice President Of Special 
Projects at Weasley Industries. George Weasley told The Daily Prophet
"My brother and I have known Severus for many years and feel he can 
make a unique contribution to our management team at this important 
moment in our company's history." He did not say if this was related 
to the anti trust difficulties the company is having.  







From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 17:48:10 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:48:10 -0000
Subject: HB / Snape-Draco / social class / (long) liberal arts
In-Reply-To: <3A05FFDA.C6755907@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <8u9f8q+o76k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5310

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
about four topics numbered below.

>>>1. Happy Birthday 

I always seem to be offline for a few days when there is a birthday 
but I do want to say Have a Happy to Catlady and belatedly to our 
Fearless Leader Penny.  (I sent my owl, Drowsy, to Sirius Black to 
ask him if he could drop by each of your houses for a little *visit*, 
just for a little birthday gift, but Drowsy owl claimed she couldnt 
find him.  She spent a long time looking, though, and I could not 
help noticing that she now has a suntan. hmmmm.)

>>>2. But in MY world, Snape likes Draco. In my world, Snape likes 
Lucius (because Lucius takes the effort to be genial to Snape in a 
patronizing way and hint at using his position on Board of Trustees 
to get Snape a promotion). In my world, Lucius believes Snape is 
still a loyal Death Eater who only pretended to spy for Dumbledore as 
a way of gaining his own safety, and Snape believes Lucius's tale 
that he was only involved with the Death Eaters because they put a 
spell on him.

This is the part of the overall HP plot that I am the most confused 
about -- what DOES JKR intend, damnit? -- but it is hard to believe 
that Snapes liking for Draco is anything other than authentic 
favortism for a friends kid.
 
>>>3. Snape liking Lucius ties into the topic of social class. The 
wizarding folk seem to have an intense social class system. [snip] I
believe that Justin Finch-Fletchly's reason for existing is to show 
that the wizarding folk don't perceive any different between him and 
Colin Creevey the milkman's son

Good point.  It is important, IMHO, to remember that the whole HP 
series is a thinly-veiled metaphor about bigotry, consistent with 
JKRs political convictions. 

>>>4. USAmerican colleges and universities always have distributional
requirements for bachelor's degrees (requirements to 'distribute' your
 earned credits among multiple subjects). As has been said, this is
 because their Ideal is the Well Rounded Education. An education 
which is Not Intended to fit a person for a job. It's called Liberal 
Arts because it is topics suitable for free men (and women, but no 
women were free when the name was invented), which means not slaves, 
which means people who don't have to work for a living. Liberal from 
the same root as Liberty. [a whole lot of snipping]

While I dont disagree at all with Catladys analysis, I think there is 
another reason while distributional requirements exist:  While in 
general, colleges and universities in the US are pretty good, our 
public school system is not too good.  It is pretty easy to graduate 
from high school in the US without even learning to read very well, 
as a result, studies have shown that somewhere around 20% (I cant 
remember the actual number) of U.S. adults are functionally 
illiterate even though something like 90% graduate from high school.  
Therefore many colleges are forced to deal with students who are 
simply unprepared for college work.  IMHO, that is why so many 
colleges have such broad and deep distributional requirements.  In 
the 1960s and 70s, many colleges did not have those requirements, but 
they seemed to have all re-appeared in force during the 1980s.

-- Joywitch




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 18:00:52 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:00:52 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More clippings from The Daily Prophet
Message-ID: <5b.da0ab54.27399d54@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5311

This is great!  How does one subscribe?

Thanks, and

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
Quidditch is life ... the rest is just details.



From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 18:01:33 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 18:01:33 -0000
Subject: day by day calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <8u5o39+ihka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u9g1t+doom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5312

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
> I've just completed the first of four day-by-day calendars of the 
> stories

Am I the only one worried by this?  While I am a very big fan of your 
lexicon, Steve, I think you may be going too far.  I know, I know I 
have already stated my opinion that you are far and away the most HP-
obsessed of us all.  But day-by-day calendars????  DAY BY DAY????  I 
know you have a job, Steve, and a family - remember them?.  Take a 
deep breath, Steve, move away from computer, pick up the phone, and 
dial your nearest 12 step program.  It will be OK, really it will, 
with a little professional help you can beat this addiction.  We are 
rooting for you, Steve.

-- Joywitch




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Tue Nov  7 18:11:37 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 18:11:37 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <8u7plb+nfn8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u9gkp+56ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5313

I think Dumbledore said it best when he told Harry "he see's his 
father in himself when in times of need" in the PoA. Harry see's 
his father cast  the Patronus across the lake and it was him. 
Remember that Voldemorts wand spit out  last spells not last 
deaths, the order would have been Harry (failed AK spell) then 
his mother, and I think had he held on long enough James 
would have popped out. Anyways just my 2 cents.

Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 18:13:31 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 18:13:31 -0000
Subject: Announcement
In-Reply-To: <3A070E96.EB2DFD6F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8u9gob+fnsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5314

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I just wanted to share our good news of the day with everyone as it 
does
> affect this group -- well, somewhat anyway.  I'm expecting our first
> baby in April -- we had the 4 month diagnostic ultrasound this 
morning,
> and everything looks great!  It's a girl 


A new little baby witch!!!!! Congratulations to Penny and Bryce!!!!!  
I would like to be the one to buy the little one her first broomstick.

-- Joywitch




From mmarth at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov  7 19:24:08 2000
From: mmarth at peoplepc.com (mmarth at peoplepc.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:24:08 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <3A083121.88375D36@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u9kso+fl34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5315

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Susan McGee wrote:
> 
> > Okay, if you're in Michigan and you plan on voting for Gov. Bush, 
let
> > me tell you that I have deep respect for you, but wouldn't you
> > rather spend the day in Canada at a luxury resort, having a 
massage,
> > luxuriating in the hot tub? Never mind voting -- email me 
privately
> > and I'll arrange it for you...
> 
> Too late. One vote for Bush, already registered. But I'm in Texas, 
anyway.
> 
> --Amanda, whose 5-year-old is torqued that she can't vote yet



Make that two votes for Bush.  I thought the Democrats were suppose 
to vote tomorrow?  Or was I just hoping!!!  Glad to see everyone 
going out to vote, regardless.

Martha




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Nov  7 19:35:54 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:35:54 -0000
Subject: one more merchandise thing
Message-ID: <8u9liq+8k36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5316

Warner Bros told me that QVC has some HP products at 
http://www.iqvc.com - go there & search for Harry potter - they have 
a towel, some books, the train bookends, the litho, snowglobes and 
the GoF audiobook - they also are planning a Harry Potter hour some 
time in the next few weeks, and they will be carrying the Christmas 
Ornaments, which are sold out thru the catalog.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Nov  7 19:34:05 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:34:05 -0000
Subject: Merchandise News
Message-ID: <8u9lfd+8jlg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5317

First of all, i just ordered a set of sheets for my son - apart from 
the fact that he's still in a *crib*, and we're saving them for when 
he gets a junior bed next year (and no, it won't be the very cool 
Hogwarts Bed, because I don';t think that kids under 5 or so belong 
in bunk beds), I think he'll like them. Oh, who am I kidding. I'll 
like them, he'll use them, and by the time he's 4 & old enough to 
understand who Harry Potter is, he'll be convinced that Mommy is 
completely obsessed with a book series, and Daddy's completely 
obsessed with comic books, and he'll go off and become obsessive 
about something mathematical or scientific, which is fine with us. 

Second of all, I got a Zainy Brainy catalog yesterday - they have the 
Secret Boxes, the Glow Puzzles, a Harry Potter & The Sorcerer's Stone 
game, where you 'step into harry potter's shoes and master the same 
six obsticles that Harry [ed- and his friends!] successfully overcame 
to collect the Sorcerer's Stone and save Hogwarts (wonder if avoiding 
death at the hands of a megamaniacal madman is one of those 
obsticles, which would be a little intense for the average 8 year 
old), the LImited Edition of SS (for only 49.95, which is a GREAT 
price!) and all the books, as well as other wizarding gear, including 
My First Magic Hat, a lightening bolt magic wand, harry-style glasses 
and 2 activity-style games...they also have a very cool inflatable 
castle which I can't properly describe but would be appreciated by 
any kid who isn't going to get the Hogwarts Bed for the holidays (and 
it's only 200$ which, compared to the 1800 for the bed, seems *cheap*)




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Nov  7 20:07:22 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:07:22 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Introducing myself to the board
References: <8u76eo+hbcf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c901c048f6$57ffa3e0$516f073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5318

Hi Demelza and Zsenya - welcome aboard.

Great names the pair of you have - Demelza, were your parents Poldark fans
by any chance?

Alix


----- Original Message -----
From: Demelza <muggle-reader at angelfire.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 9:05 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Introducing myself to the board


I'm new too. I don't have much to add presently because I want to read
more of the threads before I add my two cents.

~Demelza
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, zsenya at y... wrote:
> My name is Zsenya and I have been lurking here for a few days. It is
> great to see a board like this - I have been searching for something
> like this for a while now.
>
> I am a big Harry Potter fan, but only started reading the books
about
> 4 months ago.  I was instantly obsessed and have read all four
> numerous times.  I have been reading the posts with interest and
have
> quite a few comments on various things that I have read.  I will put
> them all here although I will follow all the conventions for subject
> lines in future posts.
>
> I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling about
> the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost
> children's literature.  It's not that I think that they are not
> "real"
> literature, what I mean is that I think no matter how dark or
serious
> books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is always writing for a certain target
> audience, and that audience is not 28 years old like I am.   That in
> mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex, they
> are
> also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.  I also tend to
be
> a bit of a romantic and a Pollyanna, which is why..
>
> The Death Pool
>
> I cannot see her killing off Ron, Harry, or Hermione.   It just
isn't
> done and if she does do so, I would be very surprised.  Dumbledore I
> predict will die in some sort of Obi Wan Kenobi way, and he is quite
> old already.  I do not even think that Sirius or Lupin will die
> either.  Peter Pettigrew might, as well as Snape.  As far as the
> students go, I think that Cedric was enough, although I can also
> foresee that perhaps one of the other Weasley's will go (I really
> like
> the theory of Percy going to the dark side), or perhaps even Arthur
> Weasley.  I think Colin Creevey is pretty much a dead man.
>
> Neville's Story
>
> I think it is highly plausible that the kids of Harry's generation
> don't know all the details of the past 15 years.  Firstly, it seems
> that a lot of things were going on behind the scenes that not
> everyone
> was aware of.  I read an interesting article in a book about
> Baltimore
> (where I live) which discusses the loss of mass memory.  There was
> apparently a big mill worker's strike here in the 20s or 30s, yet no
> one who was alive at the time claims to remember it.  I have to look
> it up for more information, but that is sort of how I feel the
adults
> have treated the past 20 years or so for their children.  They know
> about Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort in a sort of boogeyman way,
but
> they don't know all the details.  Perhaps Bill and Charlie know, but
> they wouldn't have found out until they were older.  The one thing
> that I wonder is why Hermione hasn't researched all of this.  I
would
> think that she would have read up on it, although perhaps the
> official
> history books don't mention all the little details and I guess she
is
> busy enough as it is!
>
> Hermione
>
> I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I
was
> a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather
that
> overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
> well.
>  In other words, I learned early on how to please the teachers and
> that I enjoyed getting good grades (since I wasn't good in other
> areas, like music or sports).   Hermione studies for hours and hours
> and gets excellent grades, but Ron and Harry study much less and
pass
> reasonably well with little effort.  I think that she knows that she
> is bright but recognizes that the others would do just as well if
> they
> would study as much as she does.  When you are the type of child
that
> pays attention in class and no one else seems to know the answers,
it
> is MADDENING to have to sit through that.   Also, I have to wonder,
> if
> she was a boy would she be treated in the same manner?  She also has
> the usual girl issues (insecure about her bushy hair and big teeth),
> and, given the way she bursts into tears at the drop of the hat, is
> very, very sensitive (and obviously going through some major puberty
> in Books III and IV).  When I look at scenes like the problems with
> the Firebolt, I don't see it so much as Hermione being a tattle-tale
> as her being a practical, responsible child, who cares deeply about
> her friends and will do what she thinks is right to protect them.
> It's a behavior that took me well into my twenties to learn.
>
>
> Ron
>
> I love Ron as much as Hermione and will say up front that I am a
> total
> and complete Ron and Hermione advocate.   OK, I have read several of
> the posts re: Ron and his, er, behavioural issues, but as I said
> above, I think that these books are pretty much straightforward and
> that Ron WILL find something to excel in and he WILL do whatever is
> necessary to deserve Hermione.  I truly can't see him as a parallel
> to
> Peter Pettigrew.  Sure, he got upset and jealous of Harry in GoF,
but
> that is completely natural. I was completely upset and stopped
> talking
> to my best friend in 9th grade when she got a boyfriend before I
did.
>  14 year-olds get upset over silly things.  He is Harry's truest
> friend, and a good guy and, if anything, I see him facing Voldemort
> together with Harry.  Also, didn't (sorry, don't have PoA in front
of
> me) Sirius get some sort of familiar glint in his eye when Ron stood
> up for Harry in the Shrieking Shack?  Ron has done a number of brave
> things in all of the books and has shown that he will sacrifice
> himself for his friends if necessary.
>
> Harry
> Well, what can I say? These ARE the Harry Potter books after all and
> he is the star.  He has many faults and a good many issues to work
> out.   I can't comment any more than that right now, this message is
> already far too long, but I look forward to contributing in the
> future!
>
> Thanks for reading, and I look forward to more wonderful theories
and
> discussions!
> Zsenya



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com








From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 20:46:57 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:46:57 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u9po1+sm11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5319

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> If you're in Michigan and plan on voting for Al Gore, let me know 
if 
> you need a ride to the polls, (hot tub and massage to follow).....
> 
Already voted for Gore, but may need info on emigrating to Canada if 
Shrub gets elected...


ht


-----------------------------------------------------------
History doesn't always repeat itself--sometimes it screams,
"WHY DON'T YOU LISTEN TO WHAT I'M SAYING?" and lets fly with a club







From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue Nov  7 20:57:50 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:57:50 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <8u9gkp+56ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u9qce+ffhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5320

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:
> I think Dumbledore said it best when he told Harry "he see's his 
> father in himself when in times of need" in the PoA. Harry see's 
> his father cast  the Patronus across the lake and it was him. 
> Remember that Voldemorts wand spit out  last spells not last 
> deaths, the order would have been Harry (failed AK spell) then 
> his mother, and I think had he held on long enough James 
> would have popped out. Anyways just my 2 cents.
> 
> Dave

I was thinking the same thing. But wouldn't Baby Harry have appeared?

~Demelza




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue Nov  7 20:54:50 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:54:50 -0000
Subject: Introducing myself to the board
In-Reply-To: <00c901c048f6$57ffa3e0$516f073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8u9q6q+r2fu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5321

My mother was. Graham Greene (I think that's who wrote Poldark) 
supposedly took the name from a village or an area in Cornwall. 

~Demelza 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> Hi Demelza and Zsenya - welcome aboard.
> 
> Great names the pair of you have - Demelza, were your parents 
Poldark fans
> by any chance?
> 
> Alix
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Demelza <muggle-reader at a...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 9:05 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Introducing myself to the board
> 
> 
> I'm new too. I don't have much to add presently because I want to 
read
> more of the threads before I add my two cents.
> 
> ~Demelza
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, zsenya at y... wrote:
> > My name is Zsenya and I have been lurking here for a few days. It 
is
> > great to see a board like this - I have been searching for 
something
> > like this for a while now.
> >
> > I am a big Harry Potter fan, but only started reading the books
> about
> > 4 months ago.  I was instantly obsessed and have read all four
> > numerous times.  I have been reading the posts with interest and
> have
> > quite a few comments on various things that I have read.  I will 
put
> > them all here although I will follow all the conventions for 
subject
> > lines in future posts.
> >
> > I have to say initially however, that I have a decided feeling 
about
> > the whole series and that is that they are first and foremost
> > children's literature.  It's not that I think that they are not
> > "real"
> > literature, what I mean is that I think no matter how dark or
> serious
> > books 5 - 7 get, JK Rowling is always writing for a certain target
> > audience, and that audience is not 28 years old like I am.   That 
in
> > mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and complex, they
> > are
> > also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.  I also tend to
> be
> > a bit of a romantic and a Pollyanna, which is why..
> >
> > The Death Pool
> >
> > I cannot see her killing off Ron, Harry, or Hermione.   It just
> isn't
> > done and if she does do so, I would be very surprised.  Dumbledore 
I
> > predict will die in some sort of Obi Wan Kenobi way, and he is 
quite
> > old already.  I do not even think that Sirius or Lupin will die
> > either.  Peter Pettigrew might, as well as Snape.  As far as the
> > students go, I think that Cedric was enough, although I can also
> > foresee that perhaps one of the other Weasley's will go (I really
> > like
> > the theory of Percy going to the dark side), or perhaps even 
Arthur
> > Weasley.  I think Colin Creevey is pretty much a dead man.
> >
> > Neville's Story
> >
> > I think it is highly plausible that the kids of Harry's generation
> > don't know all the details of the past 15 years.  Firstly, it 
seems
> > that a lot of things were going on behind the scenes that not
> > everyone
> > was aware of.  I read an interesting article in a book about
> > Baltimore
> > (where I live) which discusses the loss of mass memory.  There was
> > apparently a big mill worker's strike here in the 20s or 30s, yet 
no
> > one who was alive at the time claims to remember it.  I have to 
look
> > it up for more information, but that is sort of how I feel the
> adults
> > have treated the past 20 years or so for their children.  They 
know
> > about Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort in a sort of boogeyman way,
> but
> > they don't know all the details.  Perhaps Bill and Charlie know, 
but
> > they wouldn't have found out until they were older.  The one thing
> > that I wonder is why Hermione hasn't researched all of this.  I
> would
> > think that she would have read up on it, although perhaps the
> > official
> > history books don't mention all the little details and I guess she
> is
> > busy enough as it is!
> >
> > Hermione
> >
> > I love Hermione.  I don't consider her to be a braggart at all. I
> was
> > a "smart" child myself.  More than that, I was book smart rather
> that
> > overly naturally smart, which is I think Hermione's situation as
> > well.
> >  In other words, I learned early on how to please the teachers and
> > that I enjoyed getting good grades (since I wasn't good in other
> > areas, like music or sports).   Hermione studies for hours and 
hours
> > and gets excellent grades, but Ron and Harry study much less and
> pass
> > reasonably well with little effort.  I think that she knows that 
she
> > is bright but recognizes that the others would do just as well if
> > they
> > would study as much as she does.  When you are the type of child
> that
> > pays attention in class and no one else seems to know the answers,
> it
> > is MADDENING to have to sit through that.   Also, I have to 
wonder,
> > if
> > she was a boy would she be treated in the same manner?  She also 
has
> > the usual girl issues (insecure about her bushy hair and big 
teeth),
> > and, given the way she bursts into tears at the drop of the hat, 
is
> > very, very sensitive (and obviously going through some major 
puberty
> > in Books III and IV).  When I look at scenes like the problems 
with
> > the Firebolt, I don't see it so much as Hermione being a 
tattle-tale
> > as her being a practical, responsible child, who cares deeply 
about
> > her friends and will do what she thinks is right to protect them.
> > It's a behavior that took me well into my twenties to learn.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > I love Ron as much as Hermione and will say up front that I am a
> > total
> > and complete Ron and Hermione advocate.   OK, I have read several 
of
> > the posts re: Ron and his, er, behavioural issues, but as I said
> > above, I think that these books are pretty much straightforward 
and
> > that Ron WILL find something to excel in and he WILL do whatever 
is
> > necessary to deserve Hermione.  I truly can't see him as a 
parallel
> > to
> > Peter Pettigrew.  Sure, he got upset and jealous of Harry in GoF,
> but
> > that is completely natural. I was completely upset and stopped
> > talking
> > to my best friend in 9th grade when she got a boyfriend before I
> did.
> >  14 year-olds get upset over silly things.  He is Harry's truest
> > friend, and a good guy and, if anything, I see him facing 
Voldemort
> > together with Harry.  Also, didn't (sorry, don't have PoA in front
> of
> > me) Sirius get some sort of familiar glint in his eye when Ron 
stood
> > up for Harry in the Shrieking Shack?  Ron has done a number of 
brave
> > things in all of the books and has shown that he will sacrifice
> > himself for his friends if necessary.
> >
> > Harry
> > Well, what can I say? These ARE the Harry Potter books after all 
and
> > he is the star.  He has many faults and a good many issues to work
> > out.   I can't comment any more than that right now, this message 
is
> > already far too long, but I look forward to contributing in the
> > future!
> >
> > Thanks for reading, and I look forward to more wonderful theories
> and
> > discussions!
> > Zsenya
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 21:27:22 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:27:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Wizards' Houses (was: A really strange thought)
References: <20001107105214.24231.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A0873B9.697D1F2D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5322

Christian Stub wrote:

> "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"

Is this including my children?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 21:30:18 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:30:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: neville's story
References: <8u99vl+4lu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A08746A.CEBAC865@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5323

eliasheldon at ivillage.com wrote:

> A related theory came to mind when I read this post:  Perhaps Neville
> has had a memory charm placed on him.  His poor memory is mentioned
> several times throughout the canon.  Perhaps he actually witnessed
> the torturing and had to have his memory modified (even as a small
> boy).  He might have had his memory modified by those who had
> tortured his parents so that he could not bear witness against them.

Oooh, good thought. I'd considered that his family had put the charm on him,
to protect him until he was old enough to handle the information, but that
seemed a bit extreme. If the torturers did it, as a precaution or as part of
the torture, then he's suffering some of that "permanent damage" like Bertha
Jorkins did, and perhaps his family's been trying to fix him....?

Oooh. Good theory.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 21:35:44 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:35:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More clippings from The Daily Prophet
References: <8u9do6+ikcn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0875AF.7EBCC39@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5324

Eggplant, you and Caius are evidently the resident warped geniuses. Thanks
for a good laugh, on a day when my three house elves are exercising more
than their usual magic (i.e., make rooms messy by walking in; cause objects
of desire to disappear from hands of baby; enlarge one Oreo so it covers
three French door windows (up to about 3 feet high), etc.).

--Amanda

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

>     CLIPPINGS FROM THE DAILY PROPHET
>
> Some of you may not have a subscription to The Daily Prophet so I
> thought I'd send you a few clippings just to let you know some of the
> stuff going on in the wizarding world.
> ============================
> A BREAKUP SOUGHT FOR WEASLEY INDUSTRIES
>
> Neville Longbottom the head of the antitrust division of the
> department of magic said today that his department was charging
> Weasley Industries with anti competitive practices. Weasley
> Industries is the parent company of Weasley's Wizard Wheezes the
> phenomenally successful chain of joke shops that has made Fred and
> George Weasley the two richest wizards in the world. The brothers
> opened one tiny shop in Hogsmead less than 5 years ago and their
> growth has been nothing less than astonishing. Today they dominate,
> some say monopolize, the entire joke industry.
>
> In a press conference today minister Longbottom said "The company has
> engaged in predatory pricing and other unfair monopolistic practices.
> Every jokester feels that having a good supply of Canary Creams and
> Ton Tongue Toffee is absolutely essential, so in it must be admitted
> brilliant marketing move, the Weasley brothers started to gave away
> Whoopee Cushions and plastic vomit with each purchase. Independent
> producers like International Whoopee Cushion and Asia Pacific Plastic
> Vomit just could not compete with a tie in with fundamental products
> that every prankster is virtually forced to buy. Their main retail
> competitor, Zonkos joke shop, tried to counter with Peanut Parrots
> and Big Tongue Gum but the Weasley's successfully sued Zonkos for
> patent infringement and Zonkos was forced to file for bankruptcy,
> leaving the brothers virtually the only remaining force in this
>
> Continued on page A6
> ============================
> advertisement
>
> The musical stylings of Percy Weasley have made him the most popular
> singer of romantic ballads of his generation, now this beloved
> minstrel he has written a book of tender love poems. "It Might Be
> Verse" is available at all Flourish And Blots locations.
> ============================
> continued from page 1
>
> very important sector of our economy." The ministry is trying to
> force Weasley Industries to split into two companies that would
> compete with each other. In a statement to reporters Fred Weasley
> said "From the beginning all my brother and I have tried to do is
> make a funny product that a jokester can afford. We think it's a pity
> minister Longbottom does not understand this but we look forward to
> proving it in a court of law". If a out of court settlement can not
> be agreed on a long and very complicated trial could start in about a
> year.
>
> =============================
> A New Malfoy Movie
>
> Actor Draco Malfoy has signed to play the title character in
> "Martin Miggs the Mad Muggle", the movie based on the first of the
> Martin Miggs series of children's books that has become the fastest
> selling book of all time. Mr. Malfoy is best known for his work in
> the 7 part historical mini series "The Harry Potter Story", he played
> the part of Dobby.
>
> Martin Miggs in the books is a little boy who can do no witchcraft
> but overcomes all sorts of exotic and fanciful dangers with nothing
> to help him but intelligence and courage. Mr. Malfoy is 23 years old
> but due to a unfortunate accident during a unsuccessful attempt to
> make another Philosopher's Stone he looks like he's about 12. The
> latest book in this controversial series is "Martin Miggs And The Tax
> Audit" and is considered by many to be too frightening for younger
> readers. Conservative wizards, including Mr. Malfoy's own father,
> also claim that by having the hero solve problems without sorcery the
> series promotes un-wizarding values and is corrupting our youth. Mr.
> Malfoy's only comment was "A job is a job".
>
> =============================
>
> A PROFESSOR RESIGNS
>
> Severus Snape the potions master at Hogwarts has resigned from that
> school so he could accept the position of Vice President Of Special
> Projects at Weasley Industries. George Weasley told The Daily Prophet
> "My brother and I have known Severus for many years and feel he can
> make a unique contribution to our management team at this important
> moment in our company's history." He did not say if this was related
> to the anti trust difficulties the company is having.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Nov  7 21:42:15 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:42:15 -0000
Subject: neville's story
In-Reply-To: <3A08746A.CEBAC865@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8u9svn+uv7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5325

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> eliasheldon at i... wrote:
> 
> > A related theory came to mind when I read this post:  Perhaps 
Neville
> > has had a memory charm placed on him.  His poor memory is 
mentioned
> > several times throughout the canon.  Perhaps he actually witnessed
> > the torturing and had to have his memory modified (even as a small
> > boy).  He might have had his memory modified by those who had
> > tortured his parents so that he could not bear witness against 
them.
> 
> Oooh, good thought. I'd considered that his family had put the charm 
on him,
> to protect him until he was old enough to handle the information, 
but that
> seemed a bit extreme. If the torturers did it, as a precaution or as 
part of
> the torture, then he's suffering some of that "permanent damage" 
like Bertha
> Jorkins did, and perhaps his family's been trying to fix him....?
> 
> Oooh. Good theory.
> 
> --Amanda

I touched upon this in thread # 1768. But this adds a new spin on 
things. 

:-) Milz




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 22:06:59 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:06:59 -0000
Subject: Before Hogwarts...
Message-ID: <8u9ue3+doto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5326

I realize this has probably been discussed before, but I haven't 
found any posts to this... Has anyone wondered what came before 
Hogwarts?  I mean, i know that Harry and Hermione went to normals 
schools before, but what about all the kids from wizarding families?

odile




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov  7 21:26:09 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:26:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part one
References: <3A079B62.8426EAE1@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A087370.B3AD8A53@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5327

Peg Kerr wrote:

> The other thing was the music.  It was not so loud so as to be
> obtrusive, but it also added pleasantly to the experience.  It was
> something stirring, exciting, something that would make a terrific
> accompaniment to a really good quidditch game.  Although I had never
> heard the melody before, I could swear it was John Williams--it had that
> brass-and-strings Boston Pops sound.  I believe that he is going to be
> doing the soundtrack to the movie--perhaps he has already composed some
> of it and they used it here?  I know that this show was done in
> conjunction with Warner Brother's input.

Wow, I wish I could find that chart my dad had done, where he took each of
John Williams' scores and showed the classical works they were based on. And
he used "based on" in the most generous sense possible. Oh, well, if
Williams does the score it'll be drawn from a quality sample, eh?

--Amanda




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 21:18:34 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:18:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 244
References: <973561630.12290@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c04900$5160cd20$a3301a3f@f7yt10b>

No: HPFGUIDX 5328

>>VOTE: While I've got the bully pulpit momentarily, I will state my
opinion that every U.S. citizen eligible to vote should do so
tomorrow!!  If you live in one of the "battleground" states, your vote
WILL count!  Exercise it!   We don't see elections this close very often
-- it's of critical importance this year.

Penny<<

I voted! As much as this sounds cheesy, I was so proud to! I live in
Missouri, one of the "battleground" states (Missouri has the record for
having THE most political advertisment in the United States this year). I
felt so...American, so patriotic. I never get patriotic except for
Independence Day and Election Days. The reason why I felt so proud to vote
was, also, because this is the first time I have ever voted. Sure, I acted
like the biggest moron when it came to putting the ballot into this machine
(the old lady there looked at me as if I were the biggest freak), but I
still felt proud.

From,

Anake

ICQ: 37150285   |   neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO
(333-702-1984)
"Soylent Green is made out of people! Soylent Green IS people!" --Charlton
Heston, Soylent Green





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  7 22:21:15 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:21:15 -0000
Subject: James died first. 
In-Reply-To: <8u7plb+nfn8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8u9v8s+e243@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5329


> 
> So, if I am remembering correctly, what happened? Did Voldemort 
kill 
> Lily, start moving in on Harry, and then James came in and tried to 
> stop him some more?  Would the death order matter at all? Hmmm... 
> someone set me straight!




James died first.  I've just finished reading Sorcerer's Stone 
(again),  and it was mentioned there, Voldemort told Harry he killed 
his father first, and then he killed Lily because she was begging for 
his life.  (I dont know why he came out first from Voldemort's wand, 
maybe thats a mistake.)

I forget, did we learn the reason why Voldemort had to kill James???  
I've read all four books, but i dont remember if we ever found out.  
Since I just finished reading SS, icame across a line i didnt 
remember, when Dumbledore told Harry that he couldn't know just yet 
the reason why Voldemort wanted to kill him.  

Maybe there is a secret within Harry... hmm?  Or maybe Harry's 
destiny is to be a greater wizard than Dumbledore... hmmm?

odile




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 22:23:15 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:23:15 -0600
Subject: Vote! (OT)
References: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0880D2.AEC53A7D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5330

Hi --

OT, but hell, there's only a national presidential election once every 4
years.

Susan McGee wrote:

> If you're in Michigan and plan on voting for Al Gore, let me know if
> you need a ride to the polls, (hot tub and massage to follow).....

> Too late. One vote for Bush, already registered. But I'm in Texas, anyway.
>
>> Make that two votes for Bush.  I thought the Democrats were suppose
>> to vote tomorrow?  Or was I just hoping!!!  Glad to see everyone
>> going out to vote, regardless.
>>
No, the Democrats in Texas *are* voting today (my hubby & I cancelled
out Amanda & Martha with our 2 votes for Gore -- for all the damn good
it will do).  Sure wish I lived in a "battleground" state like Michigan
-- somewhere where Susan's offer would make sense.  I'm with ht on this
one -- I may need to emigrate to Canada (or the UK) if Dubya wins this
thing.  On the other hand, we'd get a new governor of Texas out of it.
<smiles ruefully>

Penny (happily sporting her "Friends don't let Friends Vote Republican"
button!)

P.S.  Do the Brits have any feelings about this election?  My husband
was negotiating a transaction with Spanish businessmen the other day,
and they had some very definite opinions about "Dubya" (which I won't
share as they'd be offensive to the Bush supporters).


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From managirl19 at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 22:55:37 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:55:37 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James' death
Message-ID: <68.8ea69ff.2739e269@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5331

In a message dated 11/6/2000 9:42:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
zsenya at yahoo.com writes:

> So, if I am remembering correctly, what happened? Did Voldemort kill 
>  Lily, start moving in on Harry, and then James came in and tried to 
>  stop him some more?  Would the death order matter at all? Hmmm... 
>  someone set me straight!

No, you're right. James came out first.  But also, someone pointed out, that 
Voldemorts wand did not echo the spell that gave Harry his scar, and 
suggested that maybe someone else was there to clean up the mess.

My guess is is that Voldemort either knocked out James, or made him watch as 
Voldie went after Lily. Of course, this has it's kinks .

--------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Allegria Winselvern</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">
FanFiction.net</A>
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 23:16:52 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:16:52 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote! (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A0880D2.AEC53A7D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <B62E3DE4.7BDF%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5332

> No, the Democrats in Texas *are* voting today (my hubby & I cancelled
> out Amanda & Martha with our 2 votes for Gore -- for all the damn good
> it will do).  Sure wish I lived in a "battleground" state like Michigan
> -- somewhere where Susan's offer would make sense.  I'm with ht on this
> one -- I may need to emigrate to Canada (or the UK) if Dubya wins this
> thing.  On the other hand, we'd get a new governor of Texas out of it.
> <smiles ruefully>

Okay. Here's the deal. If Shrubya gets in, we Americans form a commune,
change our names to "Harry", "Hermione", "Ron", "Hedwig" and "Allegra", move
to Argyllshire and buy a large eccentric house which we'll name Bailicroft.

Some of my better Dubya jokes (at least the inoffensive ones...):

Q: "Governor, are you dyslexic?"
A: "Naw, I ain't bin ta Dyslexia."

(While the above is a fictional quote, the below are [scarily!] as spoked by
the Shrub.)

W: "40 per cent of our imports now come from overseas."

W: "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's
some kind of federal program."

W: "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream."

W: "Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it."

W: "Our priorities is our faith."

W: "I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling,
which is illiterate children."

> Penny (happily sporting her "Friends don't let Friends Vote Republican"
> button!)
> 
> P.S.  Do the Brits have any feelings about this election?  My husband
> was negotiating a transaction with Spanish businessmen the other day,
> and they had some very definite opinions about "Dubya" (which I won't
> share as they'd be offensive to the Bush supporters).

I'm holding an Election Party in my flat! I expect about 10 people to come
along, two of whom are Northern Irish, three are English, one Scottish and
three are American (all sane...er...Democrats :D)

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 23:22:36 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:22:36 +0000
Subject: Suggestion for a group quote
Message-ID: <B62E3F3C.7BE1%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5333

I have a suggestion for a quote to be appended to the group messages
(::looks at the listparents::). It's from PS, which I've currently lent out,
but it's right after HHR have thumped the Mountain Troll, and goes something
like this:

"There are some things you just can't go through together without ending up
friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll is one of them."

Could someone look up the quote, and do the listparents feel like having
one?

--Crazy Ivan
=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Nov  7 23:28:47 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:28:47 -0000
Subject: Vote! (OT) - UK view.
References: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com> <3A0880D2.AEC53A7D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <002201c04912$7b0c0c40$0d69883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 5334

I love hearing about the US elections but do not know enough about any
candidate to comment (woefully ignorant of currunt affairs, my only view on
US politics is I don't think much of Clinton's moral code which has nowt to
do with politics)

However I was all in favour of extortions to vote. Here in the UK people
died to get me the vote so I feel it would be very wrong of not to do so.
Did people to die for the franchise in the US? There is also the theory if
one doesn't vote one can't complain. OT or not anything that gets people to
vote. Slightly on topic it is apathy that leads to regimes like Voldemorts.

This year my little bother was eiligible to vote for the first time and he
said he wasn't going to it was pointless, so Mum and i dragged him all teh
way to the polling station and stood with our backs to him while he did so.
However I might add given the calibre of the candidates here I sometimes
wish we followed the system at my uni where we had a box known as RON
meaning reopen nominations because none of the candidates is worth a vote.
Sometimes RON won!


Heather, who just for the record isn't a Blair babe but doesn't know who
she'll chose instead in 2001.




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Nov  7 23:43:58 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:43:58 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
Message-ID: <4e.d1d0aa5.2739edbe@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5335

I'm chiming in as another Texas who voted for Gore.  I am terrified of the 
idea of a Shrub presidency!

Count me in on the Bailicroft Commune!

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
Quidditch is life ... the rest is just details.



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Nov  7 23:45:54 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:45:54 -0000
Subject: vote / voting (OT)
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEODCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5336

Penny wrote: "Do the Brits have any feelings about this election?"

Just glad it is nearly over. I have been hearing about it for months and I
am just bored to death with all this information about an event that I have
no involvement in. Yes the choice does affect the UK but we can do nothing
about it and just have t put up with whichever person is picked.

Heather wrote: "This year my little bother was eiligible to vote for the
first time and he said he wasn't going to it was pointless, so Mum and i
dragged him all the way to the polling station and stood with our backs to
him while he did so.
However I might add given the calibre of the candidates here I sometimes
wish we followed the system at my uni where we had a box known as RON
meaning reopen nominations because none of the candidates is worth a vote.
Sometimes RON won!"

The problem I have with the local government elections in the UK is that I
do not really have an easy choice of which area to vote in. I can vote in an
area where I only live for a few months a year (North Dorset) and to do so
have to go to the effort of having a postal or proxy vote. Or I can vote in
Oxford but then have the problem, that in changing accommodation between
years, I end up moving out of the area I voted in 1 month after the election
(something like central to south Oxford - if I remember the regions
correctly).

One of the recent elections I voted in (the last EU one) I was one of fewer
than 800 people who turned up to vote in my region out of a possible 5000.
An example of the British enthusiasm for voting in what seem like pointless
elections.

RON is cool. I think he will be getting my vote in my college elections
(which happen over the next few days). This is of course if I can be
bothered to vote. I can see RON winning at least one of the four positions
up for election this time.

Also there are cases of cats being elected to positions in some of the
student election - a recent move in one Oxford college only got defeated
because the cat failed to attend hustings. I also heard a report of a
student election in a UK university where a pint of beer managed 7th place
in the election out of nine candidates.


Simon




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  7 23:50:51 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:50:51 -0000
Subject: "straightforwardness" (is that a word)
In-Reply-To: <005d01c04839$66898c40$fa997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8ua4gr+n3i4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5337

Responding to a rather old post.  I beg your forgivness

> >That in mind, although the books are amazingly intricate and 
complex, they
> are also in many ways (I think) quite straightforward.
> 
> I think there are different levels to the books.  You can read the 
book once
> and get the gist of the story... but then you read it again and you 
pick up
> on more of the detail... the comedy, and you see how something in 
an early
> chapter is vital to something later on.


I agree that the books are very straightforward, but only in some 
respects.  If I am recommending the HP books (as I often am) and it 
is an adult or older (teen) reader I will explain that the books are 
quite complex and that there is an infinite amount of dicussion in 
them.  If however I am recommending them to a younger reader, or 
someone (say a grandparent) who is thinking of getting them for a 
younger reader I will explain that the stories are in reality, 
simple.  Like Simon was saying if you read the book, at any age (and 
in children I think that is errr, 9-12, or at least thats how it's 
marketed...) you get the gist of it.

I was talking to someone  about 10 the other day and he was like "Oh 
yeah my favourite was GoF, because the part where Voldemort comes 
back and Harry fights him is cool."  

In other words I think that it depends on how you look at it and 
therefore it is easy to understand it w/out reading into it, just as 
some people (though for the most part not this group) feel that is 
easy to read "too much" into it.

Scott

(sorry I know this is an old topic and that these things have 
probably been covered by someone else who's message I've not read 
yet.)




From john at walton.to  Tue Nov  7 23:57:59 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:57:59 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] vote / voting (OT)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEODCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <B62E4787.7BEE%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5338

Simon J. Branford at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk wrote:

> One of the recent elections I voted in (the last EU one) I was one of fewer
> than 800 people who turned up to vote in my region out of a possible 5000.
> An example of the British enthusiasm for voting in what seem like pointless
> elections.

Interesting fact: More people voted in the final of the UK version of Big
Brother than voted in the European elections. Scary, n'est-ce pas?

--Crazy Ivan

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"I won't eat people! Don't eat people! Eating people is wrong!"
--Flanders and Swann: The Reluctant Cannibal
===================================================== 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov  7 23:58:50 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:58:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote! (OT)
References: <B62E3DE4.7BDF%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A08973A.FD86BA5C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5339

Hi --

John Walton wrote:

> Okay. Here's the deal. If Shrubya gets in, we Americans form a
> commune,
> change our names to "Harry", "Hermione", "Ron", "Hedwig" and
> "Allegra", move to Argyllshire and buy a large eccentric house which
> we'll name Bailicroft.

I get dibs on changing my name to Hermione!  (especially if we're going
to live in Bailicroft) <vbg>

Loved your Dubya jokes John.  My favorite Texas political joke I've seen
lately is the "Texas Survivor" version -- requires participants to drive
through Houston, Tyler, Dallas, Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, El
Paso, San Angelo, Waco and back to Houston in a Volvo with a bumper
sticker that reads "I'm voting for Gore, I'm Gay, and I'm Here to Take
your Guns."  Likely there would be no survivors.  ROFL.

Penny (sorry for all this OT mess -- I *love* election night though)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 00:06:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:06:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote! (OT) - UK view.
References: <8u80d3+9b08@eGroups.com> <3A0880D2.AEC53A7D@swbell.net> <002201c04912$7b0c0c40$0d69883e@default>
Message-ID: <3A089904.5B373D5A@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5340



Heather Edmonds wrote:

> However I was all in favour of extortions to vote. Here in the UK people
> died to get me the vote so I feel it would be very wrong of not to do so.
> Did people to die for the franchise in the US?

Yes, it was called the Revolutionary War.
You lost.

(that came out really mean and flippy, and I don't mean it that way - I am just
SO punchy (happy) because Bill Nelson (D) just won the senate seat YAYAYAYAYAY!




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Wed Nov  8 00:37:17 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 00:37:17 -0000
Subject: James died first.
In-Reply-To: <8u9v8s+e243@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ua77t+kdr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5341

It is a Luke Skywalker thing the force is strong!!!! and he must 
die!!! And Voldemort is The Emperor, and Dumbledore is Obi 
Wan Kenobi, Ron is Han Solo, Hermoine is Leigha, Snape is 
Darth Maul...... I think JKR likes Star Wars

Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 01:21:30 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:21:30 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: New Harry Potter Products!]
Message-ID: <3A08AA9A.3E3348B@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5342

Just had to share:


Harry Potter Merchandise Update - http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com

Hi Everyone,
We have just received shipment of some really GREAT Gift Sets for the
Harry Potter fan on your list!  These Desk Sets consist of a Hogwarts
Mousepad, a Gryffindor CD Wallet, and a Hedwig Post-it note holder that
you can stick on your monitor!  The 3 items are all packed in a great
box
with a velcro closure!  See the desk set here:
http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harry_potter.htm
<a href="http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harry_potter.htm">AOL Users
Click
Here!</a> 

We also are expecting in any day now some new designs on mugs!  We have
sets of 4 that represent each of the 4 houses in the books, as well as a
black mug featuring Harry with the Sorting Hat on, and another black mug
with Harry in Potions Class.  These are available for order now, just
remember they won't be shipped for about a week or so:
http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/order_harrypotter_mugs.htm
<a href="http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/order_harrypotter_mugs.htm">AOL
Users Click Here!</a>



From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 01:41:47 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:41:47 EST
Subject: Lily and James' death
Message-ID: <57.d3b1a37.273a095c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5343

(After zsenya's Priori Incantatem thread)

I've been thinking a lot about Lily and James' deaths recently, and I've come 
to a conclusion. Well, at least a conclusion that I'm satisfied with.

According to what we heard during our "Dealings with Dementors", James died 
trying to protect Harry and Lily. Why wouldn't his love for his family save 
them both? If Lily could save Harry by dying for him, wouldn't James' death 
have the same effect? Then I remembered the order of the "echoes" in the 
Priori Incantatem chapter, and my ideas of the timeline snapped into place.

1. James tries to save Lily and Harry, and is blasted out of the way by 
Voldemort. He isn't dead, but he isn't going anywhere, either.

2. Voldy curses Lily with Aveda Kedavra.

3. Voldy attempts to curse Harry, but fails. He becomes a bodyless evil 
spirit.

4. A death eater (probably Pettigrew) that happens to be hanging out with 
Voldy at the time finishes off James with Voldy's wand. 

5. Pettigrew gets control of Voldy's wand. He uses his own in the 
confrontation with Sirius, but takes Voldy's with him when he transforms. He 
leaves behind a finger and his robes.

6. Pettigrew briefly transforms back into human form to stash the wand 
somewhere -- probably at the Weasley's -- and steal some clothes. Again, 
probably Arthur's. Bill and Charlie were probably in their mid-teens at the 
time according to my messed-up timeline.

Years later...

7. Pettigrew is revealed to be an animagus. He escapes, infiltrates the 
Weasley home (while Harry isn't there, obviously), and gets Voldy's wand 
back. He goes off to Albania and meets up with Bertha, then takes her to 
Voldemort. The rest is history.

Any other ideas? Please let me know if you see any flaws in my reasoning! 

Ellie



From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 02:00:05 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:00:05 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 245
Message-ID: <14.b450d68.273a0da5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5344

> While Colin and Peter "hero-worshipped" a Potter, there hasn't been 
> any indication that Colin wants the protection of powerful friends, as 
> Peter did (PoA, Sirius points it out). 
> 
> :-) Milz

There certainly is *some* indication. In CoS, Colin is constantly tagging 
along at Harry's heels, that is, before he was petrified. He takes dozens of 
pictures of the Gryffindor team practicing, memorizes Harry's schedule, tries 
to get an autograph, etc. He certainly wants Harry to know who he is!

>From Rosmerta's description of Peter: "The fat little boy who was always 
tagging around after them at Hogwarts", I get the impression that Peter was 
basically an annoying shadow to James and Sirius most of the time. He was 
probably chosen to become an animagus because he saw something he shouldn't 
have, and instead of a memory charm, the marauders decided to make him a 
piece of the action as well. This is all blind speculation, though. I guess 
that if Colin joins the H/H/R triumverate, we'll know to suspect him.

Thoughts?

Ellie



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  8 02:19:12 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:19:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: URL help
References: <a1.cb1e049.27398b5a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A08B820.87E2651B@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5345

Try this:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

That will take you to the folder where the photos are stored.

I'm still waiting to hear from Penny or Jim whether I can put more in.  (Maybe
they've given me an answer and I haven't yet found it in my overflowing inbox).

Peg

SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/6/00 10:03:40 PM, Peg writes:
>
> >[Jim (or Penny), the pictures I have posted so far have taken up a fair
> >amount of memory. Are we really limited to that stated 20480KB limit, or
> >can our limit be upped?
>
> Help! I'm getting the news as a digest - what is the URL to see pictures???
> Chronologically challenged,
>
> Aylihael
>
>  We are the ones who chase pixies,
> Run with the unicorns, Dance with the faeries,
> Sing with the sirens, Soar with the phoenixes,
> And swim with the mermaids.
> We are the ones who  believe in the Unbelievable.
> We are the ones who dare to dream.
> ~author unknown
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  8 02:19:28 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:19:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape (Amanda's favorite character)
References: <8u7ntm+th0q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A08B830.483D6CEE@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5346

zsenya at yahoo.com wrote:

>
> I like Lupin too.  I think he is cuddly, despite being a Werewolf.

I also welcome you, zsenya, as well as all the other new people who have
been speaking up lately.  Jump in, don't be shy!

I've said it before, but since there are so many new people I'll say it
again: I have a very soft spot in my heart for a man who knows all about
having a monthly cycle and is always ready to hand you chocolate when you
need it.

Peg




From zsenya at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 02:18:50 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 02:18:50 -0000
Subject: Star Wars connection (was Re: James died first.)
In-Reply-To: <8ua77t+kdr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uad6a+itjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5347

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:
> It is a Luke Skywalker thing the force is strong!!!! and he must 
> die!!! And Voldemort is The Emperor, and Dumbledore is Obi 
> Wan Kenobi, Ron is Han Solo, Hermoine is Leigha, Snape is 
> Darth Maul...... I think JKR likes Star Wars
> 
> Dave

Hmmm...I'll admit that I often like to see connections (although I 
think Harry Potter is way cooler than Star Wars).  However, if Ron 
gets to be Han Solo, then we know he will be faithful because Han was 
always faithful to his friends.

Has the thought of Harry and Hermione being long lost twins ever come 
up on this board?  I will have to go check the archives (thank you 
everyone, by the way for letting me know about it)




From zsenya at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 02:26:06 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 02:26:06 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <57.d3b1a37.273a095c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8uadju+kntl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5348

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> (After zsenya's Priori Incantatem thread)
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about Lily and James' deaths recently, and 
I've come 
> to a conclusion. Well, at least a conclusion that I'm satisfied 
with.
> 

Ooooh I like your timeline.  The only thing that I wonder is Pettigrew 
killing James.  I wonder if he would be able to do that up close. I 
mean, he and James were friends.  Could Pettigrew have killed James? I 
suppose if he could blast 13 Muggles then he probably doesn't have 
much of a heart, but he didn't kill Sirius either, did he?





From zsenya at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 02:29:29 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 02:29:29 -0000
Subject: Snape (Amanda's favorite character)
In-Reply-To: <3A08B830.483D6CEE@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8uadq9+o2fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5349

> I also welcome you, zsenya, as well as all the other new people who 
have
> been speaking up lately.  Jump in, don't be shy!
> 
> I've said it before, but since there are so many new people I'll say 
it
> again: I have a very soft spot in my heart for a man who knows all 
about
> having a monthly cycle and is always ready to hand you chocolate 
when you
> need it.
> 
> Peg

Thanks for the welcomes.  I like your reasoning for liking 
Lupin! Another reason I like Lupin is that he likes to wear his old 
clothes.  My boyfriend is the same way. He isn't comfortable unless 
there are at least three holes in his sweater and t-shirt. Perhaps 
this is an argument for Ron/Lupin pairing (have we had that one yet?). 
Although I guess Ron wouldn't wear the shabby clothes if he had the 
choice.

:)Zsenya





From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Nov  8 02:34:56 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:34:56 -0700
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
In-Reply-To: <14.b450d68.273a0da5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEAECHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5350

Everyone seems to picture Peter Pettigrew as just a tag-along to the
Marauders and not part of a foursome.  But you're overlooking the fact that
he learned, with them, the extremely difficult Animagus magic, which means
he must have been a regular member of the group.  Not only that, but his
name is also on the Marauders Map as one of the "manufacturers" --
suggesting again that he was closely involved in the day-to-day shenanigans
of the group.  James and Lily considered him an acceptable substitute Secret
Keeper when Sirius suggested it (and of course, Sirius trusted him
completely at this point as well, which indicates he was not a casual or
annoying acquaintance).

Perhaps there are no intended parallels between the generations.  Harry,
Ron, and Hermione are coming from a totally different place than MWPP.  In a
way, Hermione might parallel Lily, if we knew for sure that she was a
long-term important member of the group (but then why isn't HER name
included on the map, and DID SHE BECOME AN ANIMAGUS TOO?)  Or was she just
James' girlfriend and not included in their rule-breaking exploits.  Did
Lily have any close friends?  I haven't seen anyone come up to Harry and say
"I knew your Mother well, she was one of my best friends, blah blah blah".




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  8 02:42:33 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:42:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 244
References: <973561630.12290@egroups.com> <001401c04900$5160cd20$a3301a3f@f7yt10b>
Message-ID: <3A08BD99.F45B19BC@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5351

Anake wrote:

> >>VOTE: While I've got the bully pulpit momentarily, I will state my
> opinion that every U.S. citizen eligible to vote should do so
> tomorrow!!  If you live in one of the "battleground" states, your vote
> WILL count!  Exercise it!   We don't see elections this close very often
> -- it's of critical importance this year.
>
> Penny<<
>
> I voted! As much as this sounds cheesy, I was so proud to! I live in
> Missouri, one of the "battleground" states (Missouri has the record for
> having THE most political advertisment in the United States this year). I
> felt so...American, so patriotic. I never get patriotic except for
> Independence Day and Election Days. The reason why I felt so proud to vote
> was, also, because this is the first time I have ever voted. Sure, I acted
> like the biggest moron when it came to putting the ballot into this machine
> (the old lady there looked at me as if I were the biggest freak), but I
> still felt proud.
>

And, living in Missouri, you had the opportunity to vote for a dead guy,
which
is really rare and should be treasured.

Peg



From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Nov  8 02:41:31 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:41:31 -0700
Subject: OT - Dubya
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEAFCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5352

I'm very proud of my feeble brain.  After ruminating over why people were
calling Bush "Dubya" for several hours, the neurons and synapses finally
fired up and it came to me in a blaze of light and choir music..... AHA!

Dubya - the Texas pronunciation of the middle initial of George W. Bush.


(Awards self a chocolate tootsie-roll pop for a job well done, however much
delayed by brain clouds).




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 02:50:10 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:50:10 EST
Subject: Lily and James' death
Message-ID: <4b.32f6001.273a1962@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5353

zsenya at yahoo.com said: 
<< Ooooh I like your timeline.  The only thing that I wonder is Pettigrew 
killing James.  I wonder if he would be able to do that up close. I mean, he 
and James were friends.  Could Pettigrew have killed James? I suppose if he 
could blast 13 Muggles then he probably doesn't have much of a heart, but he 
didn't kill Sirius either, did he? >>

Pettigrew couldn't kill Sirius. He needed Sirius to take the blame. Why cut 
his finger off otherwise?

"But when a wizard goes over ter the Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one 
that matters to 'em anymore..." --Hagrid, Prisoner of Azkaban. Ch. 10 "The 
Marauder's Map"

Ellie "Boy, isn't this a cheery post" Rosenthal



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 02:52:39 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:52:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and James' death
References: <4b.32f6001.273a1962@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A08BFF7.2B586F59@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5354



Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:

> zsenya at yahoo.com said:
> << Ooooh I like your timeline.  The only thing that I wonder is Pettigrew
> killing James.  I wonder if he would be able to do that up close. I mean, he
> and James were friends.  Could Pettigrew have killed James? I suppose if he
> could blast 13 Muggles then he probably doesn't have much of a heart, but he
> didn't kill Sirius either, did he? >>
>
> Pettigrew couldn't kill Sirius. He needed Sirius to take the blame. Why cut
> his finger off otherwise?

And was he always planning to frame Sirius for it? I think he was. Even if
Voldemort had stayed in power, after killing all 3 potters, it would've been
beneficial for him to have everyone still think that Peter Pettigrew was still
in Dumbledore's camp OR Voldemort had it in for sirius for reasons completely
unrelated to the potters and wanted to have him blamed for their deaths (for
giving up the secret) and would've had Peter pin it on sirius anyway.
And the reason I feel this - I'm not sure Peter could've planned that whole
Confront Sirius In A Crowd With The Accusation plot by himself
Any thoughts?




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov  8 02:56:53 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:56:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote! (OT)
References: <B62E3DE4.7BDF%john@walton.to> <3A08973A.FD86BA5C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00a801c0492f$997a6600$3743ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5355


----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>

> Hi --
>
> John Walton wrote:
>
> > Okay. Here's the deal. If Shrubya gets in, we Americans form a
> > commune,
> > change our names to "Harry", "Hermione", "Ron", "Hedwig" and
> > "Allegra", move to Argyllshire and buy a large eccentric house which
> > we'll name Bailicroft.
>
> I get dibs on changing my name to Hermione!  (especially if we're going
> to live in Bailicroft) <vbg>

Count me in on the Bailicroft commune, but only if Sirius and Cordelia can
move in as well (and you all can guess who I get to be).


>
> Loved your Dubya jokes John.  My favorite Texas political joke I've seen
> lately is the "Texas Survivor" version -- requires participants to drive
> through Houston, Tyler, Dallas, Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, El
> Paso, San Angelo, Waco and back to Houston in a Volvo with a bumper
> sticker that reads "I'm voting for Gore, I'm Gay, and I'm Here to Take
> your Guns."  Likely there would be no survivors.  ROFL.
>
> Penny (sorry for all this OT mess -- I *love* election night though)
>
>

You guys are making me laugh way too hard this evening! Thanks!

carole..
who is wearing her Al Gore / HArry Potter button and voted in Massachusetts
(very typically democratic state...I don't think Dubya even came to the
state! In fact our republicans voted for McCain in the primary)....

And while I'm OT...might as well be way OT...to heidi...who did Bill Nelson
beat? (and who's seat did he take? I remember him from when I lived there
and he was insurance commisioner...great guy!)... I kow I should have
emailed her privately...I won't do it again...I promise!






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  8 03:13:14 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:13:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew parallels
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEAECHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A08C4C9.C3E5F116@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5356

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> Everyone seems to picture Peter Pettigrew as just a tag-along to the
> Marauders and not part of a foursome.  But you're overlooking the fact that
> he learned, with them, the extremely difficult Animagus magic, which means
> he must have been a regular member of the group.  Not only that, but his
> name is also on the Marauders Map as one of the "manufacturers" --
> suggesting again that he was closely involved in the day-to-day shenanigans
> of the group.  James and Lily considered him an acceptable substitute Secret
> Keeper when Sirius suggested it (and of course, Sirius trusted him
> completely at this point as well, which indicates he was not a casual or
> annoying acquaintance).

You raise a very interesting point, and one which echoes something else Sirius
said, and which I think Jo is playing with quite a bit.  The other Mauraders
trusted Pettigrew--they staked their lives on him and were confident that he
would do the same for them, which makes his betrayal all the more devastating.
Sirius said, when the kids brought him the food in GoF that it is hard for them
to understand what it was like: "Imagine that Voldemort's powerful now.  You
don't know who his supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who
isn't; you know he can control people so they do terrible things without being
able to stop themselves."

It's easy and tempting and reassuring when things seem safe, to look back and
say, "Oh, I saw it, or I should have known.  Peter Pettigrew, always tagging
along, such a sneak--of course he wasn't really one of us."

But he was.  THAT'S why it is so scary.  He was one of us, and we have to be
very brave to admit it.  That capacity for evil is in each one of us, even the
bravest and the best. That's why (until Dumbledore talks to him about it in CoS)
Harry is so haunted by the idea that he should have been placed in Slytherin.
He senses that capability for evil in himself.  Sure, JKR's world is simple--the
battle between good and evil--but at the same time it is very complex.  It's not
just us vs. them.  The battle for good and evil is played out within each
person, too.  And the outcome is not always easily see.  Who can fathom, from
outside appearances, the human heart, even and perhaps especially when the heart
is your own?

Peg




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 03:40:39 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:40:39 EST
Subject: URL help
Message-ID: <e0.c0d9053.273a2537@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5357


In a message dated 11/7/00 6:34:40 PM, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at attglobal.net> 
writes:

>Try this:

>http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

>That will take you to the folder where the photos are stored.

Thanks Peg!

Aylihael :::hurrying off to e-bay, where 3 of Doc Smith's Lensman paperbacks 
are going for $2.55 the set, and 10 minutes til close.... 



From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 03:36:32 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:36:32 -0600
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEAECHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A08CA40.8810ECD7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5358

Hi --

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> Everyone seems to picture Peter Pettigrew as just a tag-along to the
> Marauders and not part of a foursome.  But you're overlooking the fact
> that he learned, with them, the extremely difficult Animagus magic,
> which means he must have been a regular member of the group.  Not only
> that, but his name is also on the Marauders Map as one of the
> "manufacturers" -- suggesting again that he was closely involved in
> the day-to-day shenanigans of the group.  James and Lily considered
> him an acceptable substitute Secret Keeper when Sirius suggested it
> (and of course, Sirius trusted him completely at this point as well,
> which indicates he was not a casual or annoying acquaintance).

Thanks Sister ML!  That's what I was trying to say yesterday or earlier
today, can't remember which.  I don't see any reason to think that
Pettigrew was just a tag-along.  He was clearly (IMO) an integral member
of the Marauders.  Neville, OTOH, is not a member of our Trio.  I think
most of us would agree there.  But, for the reasons you set out, I
definitely agree that Pettigrew was a Marauder.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 03:39:57 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:39:57 -0600
Subject: Complexity of the Books
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEAECHAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <3A08C4C9.C3E5F116@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A08CB0D.B80F9573@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5359

Hi --

Peg Kerr wrote:

> It's easy and tempting and reassuring when things seem safe, to look
> back and say, "Oh, I saw it, or I should have known.  Peter Pettigrew,
> always tagging along, such a sneak--of course he wasn't really one of
> us."
>
> But he was.  THAT'S why it is so scary.  He was one of us, and we have
> to be very brave to admit it.  That capacity for evil is in each one
> of us, even the bravest and the best. That's why (until Dumbledore
> talks to him about it in CoS) Harry is so haunted by the idea that he
> should have been placed in Slytherin. He senses that capability for
> evil in himself.  Sure, JKR's world is simple--the battle between good
> and evil--but at the same time it is very complex.  It's not just us
> vs. them.  The battle for good and evil is played out within each
> person, too.  And the outcome is not always easily seen.  Who can
> fathom, from outside appearances, the human heart, even and perhaps
> especially when the heart is your own?

This is very well-said Peg.  Thanks as always for your thoughts.  That's
why I disagree with Zsenya that this series is straight-forward and
targeted at children.  There's just so much more to it than what
"appears" to be on the surface.  JKR throws more than a few curve balls
our way.  IMO anyway.  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 03:42:18 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:42:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: URL help
References: <a1.cb1e049.27398b5a@aol.com> <3A08B820.87E2651B@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A08CB9A.24A03925@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5360

Hi --

Peg Kerr wrote:

> I'm still waiting to hear from Penny or Jim whether I can put more
> in.  (Maybe they've given me an answer and I haven't yet found it in
> my overflowing inbox).

Um . . . *I* don't know the answer sadly.  Maybe Jim does.  Or, maybe
someone who has other egroups lists can chime in.  I haven't honestly
had much luck with getting good answers to our questions from egroups.
They always send me a very standard "thanks for your question" type
email.  I've asked several questions about the search mechanism and
never get a response.  So, I'm afraid I'm not much help on this score.
Hopefully someone else will have some thoughts.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 04:11:46 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:11:46 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
In-Reply-To: <3A08C4C9.C3E5F116@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8uajq2+qnjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5361


Not much to add except that as always this is quite eloquent!

Peter, IMO just doesn't seem to match up with anyone in Harry's group 
of friends.

Scott

> But he was.  THAT'S why it is so scary.  He was one of us, and we 
have to be
> very brave to admit it.  That capacity for evil is in each one of 
us, even the
> bravest and the best. That's why (until Dumbledore talks to him 
about it in CoS)
> Harry is so haunted by the idea that he should have been placed in 
Slytherin.
> He senses that capability for evil in himself.  Sure, JKR's world 
is simple--the
> battle between good and evil--but at the same time it is very 
complex.  It's not
> just us vs. them.  The battle for good and evil is played out 
within each
> person, too.  And the outcome is not always easily see.  Who can 
fathom, from
> outside appearances, the human heart, even and perhaps especially 
when the heart
> is your own?
> 
> Peg




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 04:22:28 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:22:28 -0000
Subject: Before Hogwarts...
Message-ID: <8uake4+hvq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5362


I realize this has probably been discussed before, but I haven't 
found any posts to this... Has anyone wondered what came before 
Hogwarts? I mean, i know that Harry and Hermione went to normals 
schools before, but what about all the kids from wizarding families?

odile 




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Nov  8 04:30:47 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:30:47 -0000
Subject: URL help and Storage Concerns
In-Reply-To: <3A08B820.87E2651B@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8uaktn+o9hn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5363

I think that the Group's storage situation is currently under 
control, since we have used only about 30% of our maximum allocation. 
It looks like the Dayton pictures are nicely compressed, so I 
wouldn't worry that they are taking up excessive storage.  

If we ever approach the maximum storage allotment of 20Mb we can (and 
should) clean up our files and/or start another e-group expressly for 
pictures. People have already started a couple of additional 
"sibling" e-groups for storing things like chat transcripts that tend 
to take up a lot of storage.  (One of the early transcripts took up 
4.5Mb all by itself, but most are much smaller.)

I don't know why people are having problems uploading files.  I just 
click on "upload file", use the "browse" button to find the file on 
my PC, highlight the file name, click on the "open" button, fill in 
the Description box (optional), then click on the "Upload File" 
button.  That's all there is to it.  The only time that I have 
problems is when I *type* the file name and make a typo, but that 
shouldn't happen if you browse to find the file as described above.  
Where in the process does the problem occur, and what is the error 
message?

-Jim Flanagan

Peg Kerr wrote:

> I'm still waiting to hear from Penny or Jim whether I can put more 
in.  (Maybe
> they've given me an answer and I haven't yet found it in my 
overflowing inbox).
> 
> Peg
> 
> SHENmagic at a... wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 11/6/00 10:03:40 PM, Peg writes:
> >
> > >[Jim (or Penny), the pictures I have posted so far have taken up 
a fair
> > >amount of memory. Are we really limited to that stated 20480KB 
limit, or
> > >can our limit be upped?





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 04:38:50 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:38:50 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <68.8ea69ff.2739e269@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ualcq+ge9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5364

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, managirl19 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/6/2000 9:42:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> zsenya at y... writes:
> 
> > So, if I am remembering correctly, what happened? Did Voldemort 
kill 
> >  Lily, start moving in on Harry, and then James came in and tried 
to 
> >  stop him some more?  Would the death order matter at all? 
Hmmm... 
> >  someone set me straight!
> 
> No, you're right. James came out first.  But also, someone pointed 
out, that 
> Voldemorts wand did not echo the spell that gave Harry his scar

If you want to read a more complete analysis of this point of view, 
check out the Harry Potter Lexicon website at

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

Click on TimeLine on the navigation menu; there's a page listed on 
the TimeLine index that gives a detailed chronology of that fateful 
event  (Halloween, 1981) and connects it with the Priori Incantatem 
question. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 04:42:34 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:42:34 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <8uadju+kntl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ualjq+15o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5365

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, zsenya at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> > (After zsenya's Priori Incantatem thread)
> > 
> > I've been thinking a lot about Lily and James' deaths recently, 
and 
> I've come 
> > to a conclusion. Well, at least a conclusion that I'm satisfied 
> with.
> > 
> 
> Ooooh I like your timeline.  The only thing that I wonder is 
Pettigrew 
> killing James.  I wonder if he would be able to do that up close. I 
> mean, he and James were friends.  Could Pettigrew have killed 
James? I 
> suppose if he could blast 13 Muggles then he probably doesn't have 
> much of a heart, but he didn't kill Sirius either, did he?

As I wrote in the Lexicon, I think the other Death Eater, the one who 
killed James and Lily, was Barty Crouch Jr. I can't see Pettigrew 
doing it once Voldemort was defeated.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov  8 05:30:16 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 23:30:16 -0600
Subject: Dayton's show - Part Two
Message-ID: <3A08E4E8.4100D040@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5366

For those of you reading following the discussion via digest, the URL
for the folder in the files section is:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

To continue:

Next picture:
Harry and Hagrid head on train to London to buy school supplies; child
figurine in foreground

Next picture:
Hagrid and Harry descending stairs at Paddington Station stop, London
(audience member in foreground)

Next picture:
(SKIPPED - TOO DARK) Quirrel, seen above the half door entrance to the
Leaky Caldron

Next picture:
(SKIPPED - TOO DARK) Hagrid pokes a brick with his pink umbrella (here
is one place where I was impressed by attention to detail.  The umbrella
definitely looked faded and ratty.  I mean, Dayton's didn't just take
any old umbrella off the racks.  It looked as though Hagrid has been
using it during the recent rainstorms leading to floods.

Next picture:
Entrance to Gringotts

Next picture:
Harry goggles at the size of his Gringott's vault stash. You can see
Hagrid's hand gesturing. The stacked shiny things are dinnerplate-sized
coins.

Next:
Rather blurry: Draco and Harry stand side by side, being measured for
robes.  You can't see them, but the figure kneeling in front of Harry
has pins in her mouth (again, nice attention to detail).  Alas, I think
this was the only picture of Draco I got.

Next:
Dark and blurred: Harry trying wands in Mr. Ollivander's shop.  Hagrid
in background.

Next:
Close up of Mr. Ollivander

Next:
This one was cool.  Harry and Ron stand facing each other in front of
the wall between platforms nine and ten . . .

Next:
and then the turntables rotate, making the figures of Ron and Harry turn
to face the wall as the wall simultaneously parts, revealing Platform 9
3/4 and the Hogwarts Express.

Next:
Closeup of Ron

Next:
(SKIPPED -- TOO DARK) Far off view of Hogwarts

Next:
(SKIPPED -- TOO DARK) Professor McGonnagoll greets the first years.

Next:
Same picture, close up of Professor McGonnagoll

Next:
(SKIPPED: TOO DARK)  The Sorting Hat (the rip moves like a mouth).  It
looks worn and mended.  It was black on a black background (impossible
for the picture to turn out well)

Next:
Close up of Dumbledore at the Arrival Feast

Next:
Longer view of the Arrival Feast.  Hermione, Harry, Dumbledore.

Next:
Harry, Ron and Hermione silhouetted in front of the Fat Lady portrait.

Next:
Snape in potions class, Ron in foreground.

Next:
(SKIPPED - TOO DARK) Harry aloft (over the audience's heads) on his
broom, flying for the first  time.

Next:
In the forbidden corridor.  To the left: Harry, Ron and Hermione,
lunging, terrified, for the door. Center: Neville Longbottom.  To the
right: Fluffy.

Next:
Closeup.

That's it for the night!  Hope you all enjoy the pictures.  I have more
which I'll post later.

Peg




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 05:35:32 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 05:35:32 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote! (OT)/...wizard politics 
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001108053532.0070f938@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5367

Penny wrote:

>>>P.S.  Do the Brits have any feelings about this election?  My husband
>>>was negotiating a transaction with Spanish businessmen the other day,
>>>and they had some very definite opinions about "Dubya" (which I won't
>>>share as they'd be offensive to the Bush supporters).

It's about 5.15am here, it's neck and neck according to the pundits and I'm
on the edge of my seat shouting "Go, Go Gore!" (not).  

I echo some of the comments about British apathy when it comes to voting and
I could not believe the lack of interest in the European parliamentary
elections, in particular (not to mention the London Assembly).  

>From a British point of view the US elections are monitored more closely
than those of other foreign countries, including our EU cousins, because the
US President is such a dang powerful world figure ...as if you didn't know.
We get plenty of TV coverage over here, but it's hard to keep track of the
issues and subtleties of the campaigns. I'm rooting for Gore simply mainly
he's the Democrat, but partly because I love the idea of a First Lady called
Tipper. How cool.

I have some related HP questions now.  Did we ever decide whether the
Ministry of Magic is part of the Muggle government, part of an independent
Wizard goverment or representative of the whole Wizard government?  Is there
a political element to the Ministry of Magic reflecting the Muggle parties
or is it some sort of cross-party coalition related or unrelated to Muggle
politics?

I'm crap at timelines, but I think I'm right in saying that Muggle Britain
would have been under Conservative rule for most Harry's time at Hogwarts
and that PS began in the early part of Thatcher's reign.  This raises the
possibility that Attila the Hen, aka Margaret Thatcher, appointed Cornelius
Fudge as Minister of Magic (obviously unbeknownst to the population at
large).  I say "possibility" because I get the impression that the wizarding
world is completely apolitical - more like a department of civil servants -
and that there is no concept of party politics.

Any thoughts on this?

Neil

PS.  Can anyone fill me in on the politics of Darth Vader... sorry, Ralph Nader?

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 05:46:52 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 05:46:52 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <4e.d1d0aa5.2739edbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8uapcc+i929@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5368

Well, I'm exhausted, but Michigan went for Gore.

I should have moved to Florida, and offered my hot tubs and massages 
there.

Susan




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Nov  8 05:58:19 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:58:19 -0800
Subject: Penny / Cats / Merchandise
Message-ID: <3A08EB7A.A2D4BBC4@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5369

I hate to repeat so many other people, but ... congratulations, Penny,
and whoever said Lily is a pretty name is right!

The people who said cats are the opposites of House Elves are right.
House Elves clean your house and give you food. Cats totally mess up
your house and try to grab the food right out of your mouth (if it's
something they like). House Elves are remarkably ugly-looking and Cats
are remarkably beautiful-looking.

Last week I told Regina Do Not give me a HP wall calendar for my
birthday (thank you to Joywitch and Neil and the other nice people who
wished me Happy Birthday but I was rude enough not to list the names)
because a friend already gave me one. I would have secretly e-mailed her
the URL to buy Ravenclaw mug but it wasn't available at that time. So
she went to surprise me with an HP present, and gave me the Department
56 Secret Box of the Golden Snitch. I *LOVE* the cheap little zipper
pull of a broomstick that came with it and immediately put it on my
purse, and I attempted to solve the puzzle of the box ... but I have to
ask for help with it. What do they MEAN 'what is the scene?' and WHY are
there three letter (R, o, e) floating dissociatedly on the inside of the
lid?  Oh, when it asked "what is the charm?", I didn't realize they
meant the zipperpull, thought they meant that there was a scrap of
parchment with a useful spell written on it!
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 06:10:06 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 06:10:06 -0000
Subject: OT:  voting (Late Night Edition from the Vanguard)
Message-ID: <8uaqnu+550k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5370

Hi--

This is completely OT and partisan.  But as the US election is over, 
I feel as if I can reveal my personal views on this election now.  
Excuse the rhetoric, Republicans--it's been a great day for Dems here 
but a nail-biter for all nationwide.  (BTW, I've been laughing at the 
e-mails I've missed today.  Penny's Texas joke takes the cake!)

It's funny, but I feel as if I jinxed the outcome.  I've been saying 
for months that I was personally for Gore, and always work get-out-
the-vote messages, but told family and close friends that Bush would 
take the election.  A prophetess is not without honor save in tight 
elections like these.  :(

Now, Gore won my home state of Michigan (you don't understand how 
much contempt the average Michigan resident has for our Republican 
governor--this contempt cuts across all demographics and is the 
reason why we voted McCain over Bush in the primaries).  Detroit and 
suburbs had a PHENOMENAL turnout--and large turnouts here usually 
help Dems.  Also, the Big Three and the UAW gave the auto workers the 
day off.

Between the all-powerful unions and metro Detroit (go Motown!), I was 
sure the Dems would prevail.  But Florida is the key to the election 
at this late hour.  

Before tonight I was sure Florida would go for Bush--had a great jolt 
of joy when I got out of class around 9:30 EST and FL was shaded in 
blue.  But having participated actively in the 1998 gubernatorial 
election down there, and being a loud bipartisan activist (my 
political stance is schizophrenic beyond belief), I was very 
suspicious of a Democratic win of that state.

The only area in FL where Gore had a chance was in South Florida and 
he needed a huge voter turnout.  I spent a half decade in the 
Panhandle attending college, and let me tell you... it's very, very, 
(did I say VERY?) conservative.  "God's country."  Rural Florida 
above the imaginary horizontal line you can draw from Tampa to 
Orlando is typically Deep South in character--Republican.  Statewide, 
the Florida Republicans are organized to a fault.  In a tight 
election, they fight with intensity that reminds me of our own 
Michigan Dems.  Watching them put Jeb in office was like poetry in 
motion.  You had to admire it.

It's after 1 a.m. and Florida hasn't been officially declared yet.  
Well, the map is colored red.  Gore has the industrial North and 
Pacific seaboard, Bush has everything else.  The conclusion is 
obvious.

Well, at least the Canadian border is seven minutes from my front 
door.  I go over there enough to qualify for dual citizenship.  :)  
But if you guys decide on Bailicroft, just call me Angelina, 'kay?

Good night, and God bless America.  Next time, put Harry Potter on 
the ballot!  :)

--Ebony




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 06:19:16 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 06:19:16 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <8uapcc+i929@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uar94+m2fu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5371

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Well, I'm exhausted, but Michigan went for Gore.
> 
> I should have moved to Florida, and offered my hot tubs and 
massages 
> there.
> 
> Susan

<grins at Susan>

The funny thing was, this time four years ago I *voted* in Florida.

My first ever presidential election was in 1996, when I was a 
sophomore in college.  I voted in 1997 in the local elections (or 
something like that), and in 1998 in the election that put Jeb in 
office.  Still have my old voter's registration card somewhere.

One of my most controversial columns as a student journalist was a 
fiery critique of the low voter turnout that contributed to Jeb's 
election.  I got e-mails about "Tales of the Disenfranchised" from 
the online version of that issue for more than a year afterwards... 
even after I graduated and moved up to Michigan.

Funny thing was, I was registered in Michigan and in Florida.  I 
never voted both places, but my mother did sent me the absentee 
ballots.  I voted in Michigan during the summers, and voted in the 
fall in Florida.

Hmm.  Wonder if I'm still listed at my old precinct?  Something tells 
me that I am.

Oh, well.  Too late now.  :(

--Ebony 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:16:55 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 01:16:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
References: <4e.d1d0aa5.2739edbe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02e701c04953$e041dd60$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5372

Sighs.  It's 1.15 am and I have watched this 242 to 242 since midnight.  I
know my vote didn't count--the state went Bush anyway!

(Button still MIA, btw Heidi but that's ok!)

I am keeping my fingers' crossed!  OH, please please, don't make me too move
to Canada!

:)

----- Original Message -----
From: <mlleelizabeth at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!


> I'm chiming in as another Texas who voted for Gore.  I am terrified of the
> idea of a Shrub presidency!
>
> Count me in on the Bailicroft Commune!
>
> Love & Light,
> *E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
> Quidditch is life ... the rest is just details.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:21:10 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 01:21:10 -0600
Subject: Cat's for president?
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEODCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <02fb01c04954$786465e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5373

Simon

Here in Ohio, as I think I said once before, we had a Rep who was running
against a tree!  :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon J. Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: "HPforGU" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] vote / voting (OT)


> Penny wrote: "Do the Brits have any feelings about this election?"
>
> Just glad it is nearly over. I have been hearing about it for months and I
> am just bored to death with all this information about an event that I
have
> no involvement in. Yes the choice does affect the UK but we can do nothing
> about it and just have t put up with whichever person is picked.
>
> Heather wrote: "This year my little bother was eiligible to vote for the
> first time and he said he wasn't going to it was pointless, so Mum and i
> dragged him all the way to the polling station and stood with our backs to
> him while he did so.
> However I might add given the calibre of the candidates here I sometimes
> wish we followed the system at my uni where we had a box known as RON
> meaning reopen nominations because none of the candidates is worth a vote.
> Sometimes RON won!"
>
> The problem I have with the local government elections in the UK is that I
> do not really have an easy choice of which area to vote in. I can vote in
an
> area where I only live for a few months a year (North Dorset) and to do so
> have to go to the effort of having a postal or proxy vote. Or I can vote
in
> Oxford but then have the problem, that in changing accommodation between
> years, I end up moving out of the area I voted in 1 month after the
election
> (something like central to south Oxford - if I remember the regions
> correctly).
>
> One of the recent elections I voted in (the last EU one) I was one of
fewer
> than 800 people who turned up to vote in my region out of a possible 5000.
> An example of the British enthusiasm for voting in what seem like
pointless
> elections.
>
> RON is cool. I think he will be getting my vote in my college elections
> (which happen over the next few days). This is of course if I can be
> bothered to vote. I can see RON winning at least one of the four positions
> up for election this time.
>
> Also there are cases of cats being elected to positions in some of the
> student election - a recent move in one Oxford college only got defeated
> because the cat failed to attend hustings. I also heard a report of a
> student election in a UK university where a pint of beer managed 7th place
> in the election out of nine candidates.
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:26:53 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 01:26:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Dubya
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEAFCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <030701c04955$44e85ae0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5374

OMG!  So that's it!  LOL>  I never connected that~

Thanks Mary.

(And I am praying for Florida for Gore!  PLEEEEEEEASE!)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>
To: "HP for Grownups" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:41 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Dubya


> I'm very proud of my feeble brain.  After ruminating over why people were
> calling Bush "Dubya" for several hours, the neurons and synapses finally
> fired up and it came to me in a blaze of light and choir music..... AHA!
>
> Dubya - the Texas pronunciation of the middle initial of George W. Bush.
>
>
> (Awards self a chocolate tootsie-roll pop for a job well done, however
much
> delayed by brain clouds).
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:30:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 01:30:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT:  voting (Late Night Edition from the Vanguard)
References: <8uaqnu+550k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <031701c04955$b61437c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5375

Ebony, it appears you and I are sitting on the edge of our seats!  I
agree--HP for President!  :)

Neil, for more info, http://www.votenader.com should answer your questions!

Still waiting....



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From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 07:09:29 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:09:29 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Subject:=20Dayton's=20show=20-=20Part=20Two?=
Message-ID: <f.b8024d9.273a5629@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5376




>For those of you reading following the discussion via digest, the URL
for the folder in the files section is:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

Oh, Peg - these are marvelous! I can't believe Dayton's is the only place in 
the whole wide world these are appearing - the details are wonderful! Don't 
they plan to put the exhibit on travel???!
Aylihael
"Te Audire No Possum, Musa Sapientum Fixa Est in Aure 
- I Can't Hear you. I have a Banana in my Ear"




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 08:16:33 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:16:33 -0600
Subject: Elections
Message-ID: <004c01c0495c$351d37a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5377

It appears the Bush won FL, and is now President-elect of the USA.

(I am praying for a re-count!)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 07:33:50 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:33:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT:  voting (Late Night Edition from the Vanguard)
Message-ID: <20001108073350.7871.qmail@web210.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5378


--- Ebony  <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, at least the Canadian border is seven minutes
> from my front 
> door.  I go over there enough to qualify for dual
> citizenship.  :)  
> But if you guys decide on Bailicroft, just call me
> Angelina, 'kay?
> 
> Good night, and God bless America.  Next time, put
> Harry Potter on 
> the ballot!  :)
> 
> --Ebony
> 
Don't cross the Canadian border too quickly, we have
our own elections coming up on the 27th. Some
frightening choices coming up here. The Canadian
Alliance party is gaining ground - scary thought.
Can't bring myself to vote for a man who claims to be
a good Christian and wants to bring back the death
penalty (I can't be the only one who sees a conflict
between the two). I suspect a fair number of people
will be voting on the basis of choosing who will screw
up the least. Not a good thing, where's this RON vote
when you need it (thanks to our UK members for the
idea - wonder if it will help to call Elections Canada
and make the suggestion).

Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

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From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 07:44:14 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 07:44:14 -0000
Subject: James and Sirius top of their class?
Message-ID: <8ub08e+urvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5379

In a recent discussion it was said that Lupin and Hermione 
aren't 'true' parallels because Hermione is top of all of her 
classes, whilst Lupin wasn't because James and Sirius, on the 
evidence of McGonagall (I think?).

What if McGonagall just meant that James and Sirius were the top of 
Transfiguration in their class, or possibly even their whole year? 
It's fitting that two students who mastered Animagi magic would be 
excellent at Transfiguration. And it leaves room for the 
Lupin/Hermione parallel... Lupin could be top in other subjects, I 
can imagine him being excellent at the History of Magic (which Sirius 
and James, being in my mind the more 'active' of the Marauders, would 
find boring and, like Harry, not perform particularly well at).

Anyway, just me being obsessive (again).

--> Sam   




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 07:48:59 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 07:48:59 -0000
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
Message-ID: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5380

It certainly looks as though those of us who live in the U.S. are in 
for a depressing 4 years (if not 8).  Byebye abortion rights, 
environmental protection, gun control and any other shreds of social 
justice.  Bush will probably appoint people with the social 
conscience of Lucius Malfoy to the Supreme Court.  If I only had a 
wand.........

--Joywitch




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 07:49:40 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 07:49:40 -0000
Subject: James died first.
In-Reply-To: <8ua77t+kdr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ub0ik+uscc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5381

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:
> It is a Luke Skywalker thing the force is strong!!!! and he must 
> die!!! And Voldemort is The Emperor, and Dumbledore is Obi 
> Wan Kenobi, Ron is Han Solo, Hermoine is Leigha, Snape is 
> Darth Maul...... I think JKR likes Star Wars
> 
> Dave

Personally I disagree with you, simply because I think you're making 
a generalisation. Star Wars (which I'm not a big fan of) is based on 
lots of 'mythologies' (the long lost father and twin sister, etc) 
that are traditional... the morals and themes of Star Wars aren't 
unique (although the space setting is). JKR is drawing on the same 
themes and morals of Star Wars, so naturally there are going to be 
parallels. JKR has said (well I'm pretty sure she's said :) at times 
that HP isn't based on Star Wars and I believe her... she's just 
using the same traditional plot lines... not that I'm not calling 
either Star Wars or HP cliche or done before :)

--> Sam (hoping this post made sense!) 




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 07:55:11 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:55:11 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elections
Message-ID: <aa.cb230a5.273a60df@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5382

In a message dated 11/8/2000 2:19:22 AM EST, gypsycaine at yahoo.com writes:

<< It appears the Bush won FL, and is now President-elect of the USA.
 
 (I am praying for a re-count!)  >>

***sob***

Joining you in prayer --

Even though, if the Shrub did win, my religion is now "not a religion."  I'll 
pray anyway ... 

Love, Light & Prayers for Protection
and Strength .... 

*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 09:02:31 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 03:02:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] And the winner is George W. Voldemort
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5383

Seriously, (and I like your title, btw, Joywitch)

do you think there is a chance that Al Gore could win if he does a re-count?
Or is it a lost cause?

I do think that Nader's votes mattered greatly.  If Nader hadn't been there,
I think he would now be celebrating instead of the "idiot" (Personal
opinion.... don't ask my word for Clinton, though, esp. after the
scandals!).  I still think Quayle was a tutor to him at one point...


(Sorry for the ot, Penny.... just crying!)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 1:48 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] And the winner is George W. Voldemort


> It certainly looks as though those of us who live in the U.S. are in
> for a depressing 4 years (if not 8).  Byebye abortion rights,
> environmental protection, gun control and any other shreds of social
> justice.  Bush will probably appoint people with the social
> conscience of Lucius Malfoy to the Supreme Court.  If I only had a
> wand.........
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 09:18:23 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 03:18:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James died first.
References: <8ua77t+kdr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c04964$d86922e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5384

At 3.17am, 565 votes separate Bush and Gore.  All the votes aren't counted
yet, so we still stand a chance!!!! wow!

I am clinging to my tv-set, watching NBC to learn the finalized version!  I
wonder if I should light a candle?



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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Nov  8 08:21:39 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:21:39 -0000
Subject: Top of Class (James, Sirius and Lupin), polotics
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEONCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5385

Sam wrote: "In a recent discussion it was said that Lupin and Hermione
aren't 'true' parallels because Hermione is top of all of her classes,
whilst Lupin wasn't because James and Sirius, on the evidence of McGonagall
(I think?)."

McGonagall said (PoA Ch 10): "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little
gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - but I
don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers -"

Lupin say (PoA Ch 18): "Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest
students in the school"

McGonagall does not say, based on the above quote (if anyone can find other
evidence then let us know), that Sirius and James were top of the year. Only
that they were exceptionally bright. This leaves space for at least one
person to be above them. Lupin is too modest to include himself in the line
about Sirius and James being the cleverest at the school. So it is not
exactly clear where he fits into this cleverness league.


Neil wrote: "I'm crap at timelines, but I think I'm right in saying that
Muggle Britain would have been under Conservative rule for most Harry's time
at Hogwarts and that PS began in the early part of Thatcher's reign."

Thatcher came to power in 1979 (4th May 1979 - which is quite close to my
date of birth).
Major replaced Thatcher in 1990 (28th November)
Blair became PM on 2nd May 1997

Harry Born 1980
PS is supposedly set in 1990/1.
Book 7 is then set in 1997/8.

So he would have grown up under MT. Started school under MT but quickly
replaced by JM. TB would then have been in power for the end of his sixth
year and his seventh year.


Sheryll wrote: "Not a good thing, where's this RON vote when you need it
(thanks to our UK members for the idea - wonder if it will help to call
Elections Canada and make the suggestion)."

It is not as good as it may at first sound. If RON wins then you have to go
through the entire election process again!

Simon




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 08:34:52 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 08:34:52 +0000
Subject: Voting (OT)
Message-ID: <3A09102C.2C839008@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5386

Responding here to various threads on this topic. I take the
exercising of my voting rights very seriously as while to some
extent I agree with the RA Wilson's observation that 'if voting
made any difference it would be illegal' and 'no matter who you
vote for the government always gets in', it is true that my forebears
did fight hard to gain the universal franchise that we enjoy today
in this country. To note vote in each and every election, including
the European seems an insult to their memory.

I also am aware of how in many countries throughout the world
such rights are not enjoyed. Apathy fuels dictatorships even the
benign variety.

There is no point really drawing comparisons with the US War of
'Independence' or French or Russian Revolutions what happened here was
different to both. We are not a republic in that sense though do have
a democratically elected government.

I was saddened last night to hear a black minister talk about the apathy

among his community towards voting - I also tend here to get angry
when women get very apathetic about politics considering how hard it
was to gain these basic civil rights.

Certainly the American pagan/wiccan community have no reason to feel
good about Bush's election as when directly questioned about such issues

he was empathic about not recognizing witchcraft as a religion.
What this means in any real terms is debatable. One man's recognition
or lack of recognition may not actually effect the First Amendment
Rights that Americans enjoy but such a strong stand on this very minor
issue (in terms of the bigger picture) is of concern to the
international pagan/magical community.


Vivienne



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 11:20:41 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:20:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voting (OT)
References: <3A09102C.2C839008@caersidi.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <018d01c04975$ee192340$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5387

Wow!  Still no president!  I think I need to go to sleep, but I am very
psyched about all this--I never would have thought they'd take Florida AWAY
from Bush!

If you are wondering why I am so adamant on this OT-subject, it's my
viewpoints on the issues.  I can't stand Bush's ideals.  I matched myself to
the candidates, then stuck with my guns.  As Elizabeth said early, Bush also
said that Wiccan/Witchcraft isn't a religion, and he wanted to get the
military to "disavow" it.  I am a witch, and I admit it.  This, and my
open-minded thinking make me veer away from Bush (I can't stand guns, I
admit it--I think there should be a longer waiting time to get their guns.
This isn't saying guns are bad.  This is just giving a proper cool-down time
before you get the gun into your hands (so you don't go out and pepper your
ex with lead after an argument).  Abortion I think it's wiser not to
discuss.  (Winks--loaded subject, but then again, so are some of those
above!)

The idea that even after "BUSH WON" Gore could still be elected (and I
adored the speech about this campaign's not over!--still need that button,
then Heidi (winks!)) is giving me an adreneline rush....

I do think we need RoN here too, though!  Wonder if we write our congressmen
(or new congressmen lol)?

(aside, I skimmed the message before reading it, and didn't realize it was
about voting, when the word Ron first came in the messages tonight--I
thought someone was actually voting for Ron Weasley! Yes, I am blonde....)

:D  (Fingers still crossed, wonder if you can think that way?)  ack, meant
sleep!

Dee

TIME FOR BED! LOL


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 11:04:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 06:04:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] And the winner is George W. Voldemort
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5388



Denise Rogers wrote:

> Seriously, (and I like your title, btw, Joywitch)
>
> do you think there is a chance that Al Gore could win if he does a re-count?
> Or is it a lost cause?
>

OT reporting from Miami Dade County, Florida, the epicenter of fingerbiting.

I just want to explain to all of you what it's like to be a resident of Miami
Dade County, Florida, this morning.
The difference between the votes is about 500.
500 out of almost six million votes.
No pundits can ever remember something like this happening before (although, of
course, we're still waiting to recieve some of the overseas ballots)
My vote really counted. So did the 3 votes from the first time voters who my
brother brought to the polls.
So did my Aunt Betty's, but as I was told at 9 pm last night when all the
networks were predicting that Gore took the state based on exit polls, she was
confused by her ballot and is concerned that she may've voted for buchanan
accidentally.
We are going to have a recount - we shall see what happens
And I hate Ralph Nadar in many horrible ways because without him, Gore would
have won Florida (according, again, to the exit polls)
We also have a congresisonal election which is only 700 votes apart  our of over
200,000 votes - again, we're waiting on the absentee ballots to see who won.
It is terrifying and SO exciting...
But one thing this should do - it should convince EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this
country of voting age that YOUR VOTE REALLY DOES COUNT.
And Ebony, if you turned out to be still registered herein Florida, I might go a
little ballistic! But I still like you.....






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 11:36:29 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 06:36:29 -0500
Subject: new merchandise from amazon.com
References: <8uaqnu+550k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A093ABD.4925704C@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5389

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0439260485/ref%3Ds%5Fe9/103-3188863-3784662

the  Harry Potter Journal Box Set (3 journals)
Editorial Reviews
                     Book Description
                     Keep your Harry Potter memories forever with this
beautiful boxed set of Harry Potter journals.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 11:23:50 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:23:50 -0000
Subject: Not A Children's Book
Message-ID: <011a01c0497b$7e13b640$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5390

>JK Rowling's filing system of character notes and timelines must be
amazing!

Jo mentions a little about her 'storage' of notes in the Desert Island Discs
interview.

Interview is available in RealAudio format at:
http://www.rainbowplay.demon.co.uk/realaudio/d-island.ram

It should stream from that location.

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 11:27:13 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:27:13 -0000
Subject: Suggestion for a group quote
Message-ID: <011b01c0497b$7f511840$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5391

>"There are some things you just can't go through together without ending up
>friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll is one of them."
>
>Could someone look up the quote, and do the listparents feel like having
>one?

"There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other,
and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them."

On the subject of quotes, I like this one:

"even a troll will notice if you stick a long bit of wood up its nose"

Nick





From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 11:31:21 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:31:21 -0000
Subject: URL help and Storage Concerns
Message-ID: <011c01c0497b$8265f960$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5392

>I don't know why people are having problems uploading files.  I just
>click on "upload file", use the "browse" button to find the file on
>my PC, highlight the file name, click on the "open" button, fill in
>the Description box (optional), then click on the "Upload File"
>button.  That's all there is to it.

To upload files you need a version 4+ browser - IE4, Netscape 4 or above.
Some other browsers also support file upload, but not all.   AOL users
should run IE as a standalone application, not through the AOL interface -
as that is known to have problems with some sites, and may be why people (if
they are using AOL) can't upload files.

> The only time that I have problems is when I *type* the file name and make
a typo, but that
>shouldn't happen if you browse to find the file as described above.

Files should not contain spaces.  I'm not use if Egroups server is running
Unix or not... but Unix does not like spaces in file names - so when
uploading a file, make sure it is a file such as "myfile1.txt" not  "My File
1.txt".

Nick




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 11:53:22 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:53:22 -0000
Subject: one more merchandise thing
Message-ID: <011d01c0497b$82fd0940$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5393

>Warner Bros told me that QVC has some HP products at
>http://www.iqvc.com - go there & search for Harry potter - they have
>a towel, some books, the train bookends, the litho, snowglobes and
>the GoF audiobook - they also are planning a Harry Potter hour some
>time in the next few weeks, and they will be carrying the Christmas
>Ornaments, which are sold out thru the catalog.

Have just chatted to IQVC customer services... they are unable to send to
locations outside of the United States.
They would not say why that is... it's the just the way it is.

So... anyone fancy being a frieght forwarder?   I need to have a US mailing
address to get any goods.

Nick (in England)

PS.  QVC UK does not have any Harry Potter items.





From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 12:14:32 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:14:32 -0000
Subject: Link Added - Desert Island Discs
Message-ID: <012c01c0497d$76bb4d20$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5394

Hi all

Desert Island Discs is now available in RealAudio.
I've added a link to the file in the Links folder.

Main link is:

http://www.rainbowplay.demon.co.uk/realaudio/d-island.ram
(This is the streaming version).

If you want to download the file... then you need to SAVE TARGET the
following URL
http://www.rainbowplay.demon.co.uk/realaudio/d-island.rm
WARNING - it's over 3MB in length.


The file is Audio of the interview, music has been removed - mainly due to
space limitations - it's some 28 minutes long with just the Voice.

Nick






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Nov  8 14:28:54 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 8 Nov 2000 06:28:54 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James died first.
Message-ID: <20001108142854.10460.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5395

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001108/480679fd/attachment.ksh>

From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 14:29:28 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 08:29:28 -0600
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5396

Hi --

I'm going with this OT thread because this is so damn historic.  Just
put OT in your subject lines so that people who are so inclined
(particularly the Brits who may not care at all) can delete emails.  I
went to sleep at about 11:00 our time, being the pg person that I am --
baby was demanding that her mommy get some rest.  But, even in
quasi-sleep, I sort of could halfway see my husband neurotically
flipping from channel to channel.  I finally woke up at 1:30, got a
snack & we sat up until they declared Florida for Bush.  We cursed and
lamented for awhile & went to bed, thinking that at least we'll get a
new governor out of this.  Imagine our surprise (and delight!!!  Dare we
hope!!) when we wake up & discover that it's all being recounted in FL.

I've got to say -- this is SO reminiscent of what we in Texas still
refer to as the "Stolen Election" in 1948 (LBJ and those ballot boxes in
a couple of counties in So Texas).  As my husband said this morning, Jeb
Bush better have a clean nose in all of this.  It smacks of fraud
already.  I haven't heard anyone say why the networks all declared FL
for Gore at 8:00 p.m. EST and then retracted it 2 hrs later.

Gore is winning the popular vote count, even if Bush takes the electoral
vote in FL.  Amazing!!!

heidi wrote:

> OT reporting from Miami Dade County, Florida, the epicenter of
> fingerbiting.
>
> I just want to explain to all of you what it's like to be a resident
> of Miami, Dade County, Florida, this morning.  The difference between
> the votes is about 500.  500 out of almost six million votes.
> No pundits can ever remember something like this happening before
> (although, of course, we're still waiting to recieve some of the
> overseas ballots) My vote really counted. So did the 3 votes from the
> first time voters who my brother brought to the polls.

Yes, if nothing else this election should convince all apathetic voters
(most particularly that most apathetic of all voting groups, the young
adults between 18-25) that their vote COUNTS.

> And I hate Ralph Nadar in many horrible ways because without him, Gore
> would have won Florida (according, again, to the exit polls)

I CURSE Ralph Nader & his supporters.  If Dubya wins this thing, it's
their fault.  You couldn't ask for a more environmentally-friendly
President than Gore, but instead we'll be stuck with someone who's
against ratification of the treaty on global warming & plans to drill in
protected areas in Alaska.  That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm
sure.  I hope the Nader supporters are all very happy with themselves.

Vivienne wrote:

> Certainly the American pagan/wiccan community have no reason to feel
> good about Bush's election as when directly questioned about such issues
>
> he was empathic about not recognizing witchcraft as a religion.
> What this means in any real terms is debatable. One man's recognition
> or lack of recognition may not actually effect the First Amendment
> Rights that Americans enjoy but such a strong stand on this very minor
> issue (in terms of the bigger picture) is of concern to the
> international pagan/magical community.
>
Where it matters Vivienne is in the *life-time* appointments of justices
to our Supreme Court.  *They* have (more or less) the final word on
interpreting the Constitution, including our Bill of Rights.  The Court
has been in a rather fragile centrist state for some years now due to
all the Reagan appointments in the 1980s.  If Dubya should get the
chance to make more appointments, bye bye abortion rights, bye bye
freedom of religion, bye bye gun control measures, bye bye gay rights,
bye bye to lots & lots of other civil liberties.

Susan wrote:

> I should have moved to Florida, and offered my hot tubs and massages
> there.
>
Thanks for delivering Michigan anyway!  :--)  It wasn't even remotely
close in my home state!!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov  8 14:49:07 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:49:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Little Devils (OT)
Message-ID: <20001108144907.21112.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5397

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> skrev: >
Christian Stub wrote:
> 
> > "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive
> billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million,
> seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred
> and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
> 
> Is this including my children?
> 
> --Amanda

You would have to ask Cardinal Gonzaga - he did the
actual counting.  It is an excerpt from the lyrics
from one of the songs from a Norwegian
rock-opera-musical (or something) called "Which
Witch".  A summary of the libretto can be produced on request.

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 14:49:29 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 14:49:29 -0000
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5398

Penny wrote:

<<<<I'm going with this OT thread because this is so damn historic.  
Just put OT in your subject lines so that people who are so inclined
particularly the Brits who may not care at all) can delete emails.>>>>

Yeah, it is OT, but we forgive you (well, I do).  I don't know about 
the other non-Americans on the list but I've found it fascinating to 
read personal viewpoints on this election.  It's hard to see past the 
glossy anchor-people and computer-generated maps in the TV coverage. 

When I left work this morning at 8am GMT, the news was "George W Bush 
elected President" with Republican dominance in the Houses, but now 
if I understand correctly there is a glimmer of hope that Gore might 
be elected?  I'd better check the news...

Neil

PS - is it red for Republicans, blue for Democrats?  I was getting 
confused by that, because in the UK red=socialists, 
blue=conservatives.








From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 15:16:48 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:16:48 -0600
Subject: Red vs. Blue for Neil (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A096E60.B2E30AE8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5399

Hi --

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

> PS - is it red for Republicans, blue for Democrats?  I was getting
> confused by that, because in the UK red=socialists,
> blue=conservatives.
>

Yes -- Red = Republican and Blue = Democrat on the TV news maps over
here.  I'm not sure *why* this is so.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From larrick at yazaki-na.com  Wed Nov  8 15:26:52 2000
From: larrick at yazaki-na.com (Laurie )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:26:52 -0000
Subject: one more merchandise thing
In-Reply-To: <011d01c0497b$82fd0940$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8ubrbs+gill@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5400

-> 
> Have just chatted to IQVC customer services... they are unable to 
send to
> locations outside of the United States.
> They would not say why that is... it's the just the way it is.
> 
> So... anyone fancy being a frieght forwarder?   I need to have a US 
mailing
> address to get any goods.
> 
> Nick (in England)
> 
> PS.  QVC UK does not have any Harry Potter items.


I'm willing to have them shipped to me (I even promise to forward the 
less expensive items on to you - j/k). Seriously, I would be happy to 
serve as your US link. Just email me directly at larrick at yazaki-
na.com.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 15:43:10 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:43:10 -0600
Subject: Wizard politics
References: <1.5.4.32.20001108053532.0070f938@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A09748E.CF821124@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5401

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> I have some related HP questions now.  Did we ever decide whether the
> Ministry of Magic is part of the Muggle government, part of an
> independent Wizard goverment or representative of the whole Wizard
> government?

For the Wizarding World -- Govt FAQ, I concluded that most of our
members believe that the Ministry is independent of the Muggle govt.
Rita in particular makes good points that surely the sensitive knowledge
about the existence of the wizarding world would not be left to changing
whim of partisan politics.  The only scenario under which I could
imagine that the Ministry is a Cabinet position or otherwise part of the
Muggle govt is if the Minister of Magic puts a memory charm on those in
the know when there's a shift in power.

For that FAQ, I also did as detailed an analysis of the various
components of the Ministry as we can based on our knowledge at this
point.  I also included Lori's vision of the organization of the Int'l
Federation of Wizards.  That FAQ is actually done at this point, unless
recent discussions bring up new theories or points that should get added
in.  <g>

> Is there a political element to the Ministry of Magic reflecting the
> Muggle parties or is it some sort of cross-party coalition related or
> unrelated to Muggle politics?

This I'm not sure about, and I don't think it's been raised before.  I
hadn't seen anything about this while doing the FAQ.  I'm not even sure
how the Minister of Magic is elected/appointed/chosen.

> I say "possibility" because I get the impression that the wizarding
> world is completely apolitical - more like a department of civil
> servants - and that there is no concept of party politics.

Hermione does note that the house elves are "shockingly
underrepresented" on  .. . . something that escapes me (one of the
Committees relating to Magical Creatures I think).  The use of the word
"underrepresented" might indicate that there's some form of
representative govt in the wizarding world, although we've not seen much
evidence of this other than that as far as I know.   Interesting thought
to contemplate.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 15:53:26 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:53:26 -0600
Subject: Suggestion for a group quote
References: <B62E3F3C.7BE1%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A0976F6.3FB4CA8F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5402

Hi --

John Walton wrote:

> I have a suggestion for a quote to be appended to the group messages
> (::looks at the listparents::). It's from PS, which I've currently
> lent out, but it's right after HHR have thumped the Mountain Troll,
> and goes something like this:
>
> "There are some things you just can't go through together without
> ending up friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll is one
> of them."
>
> Could someone look up the quote, and do the listparents feel like
> having
> one?

If someone feels creative, please feel free to set up an egroups poll --
we should probably have a group quote.  I like that.  And, Simon, I like
your first logo.  Is anyone else contemplating designing a logo for us?
That's a great idea too!  Would it somehow be inserted into the header
or footer of each message or just be placed on the homepage?

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Wed Nov  8 16:01:57 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:01:57 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder parallels
References: <a.470e15f.27377830@aol.com> <005901c0479f$038fc5e0$2c8fd6ce@oemcomputer> <Q.20001106132542.1F34.3.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <3A073D97.3578111C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20001108170157.7A5.1.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5403


Hi Penny,

first of all congratulations on your happy news.

On 06.11.2000 at 17:24:07 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>Christina Gross wrote:
>
>> But Peter wasn't really a member of James' circle as Neville
>doesn't
>> really belong to the triad.
>
>I would dispute this somewhat based on the fact that all 3 of the
>Marauders other than Lupin seem to have learned the animagi
>transformation in order to pal around with Moony.  If Peter wasn't
>part
>of the inner circle, he simply wouldn't have been trusted enough to
>have
>that info (that Lupin was a werewolf for starters).

I would agree that Peter was closer to the rest of the Marauders than
Neville is at this point to Harry and his gang. However, Professor
McGonagall seemed to voice the impression outsiders had of the
Marauders: that Pettigrew was hanging around the more popular James
and Sirius for protection, not being their equal in talent or
anything else, sort of an appendage to the circle. 
Perhaps Peter knew something or had a special skill the other
Marauders needed for their Animagus-Transformation. Neville could
have helped Harry with the second task of the Triwizard Tournament if
only Harry had thought to ask him. 

>I do think it's hard to make exact parallels amongst the Marauders
>since
>you've got 4 Marauders & 3 of our gang.

Not only that, but also there are good arguments for several
different pairings. I'm really enjoying this thread. It made me look
at some things I hadn't considered before. 

Greetings
Christina

"A room without books is like a body without a soul." -Cicero

Check out our book and movie reviews at
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 16:59:35 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:59:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005701c049a5$57e48740$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5404

Neil, yes Gore is blue!  And I pray the blue gets Florida!  :)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Flying Ford Anglia" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:49 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)


> Penny wrote:
> 
> <<<<I'm going with this OT thread because this is so damn historic.  
> Just put OT in your subject lines so that people who are so inclined
> particularly the Brits who may not care at all) can delete emails.>>>>
> 
> Yeah, it is OT, but we forgive you (well, I do).  I don't know about 
> the other non-Americans on the list but I've found it fascinating to 
> read personal viewpoints on this election.  It's hard to see past the 
> glossy anchor-people and computer-generated maps in the TV coverage. 
> 
> When I left work this morning at 8am GMT, the news was "George W Bush 
> elected President" with Republican dominance in the Houses, but now 
> if I understand correctly there is a glimmer of hope that Gore might 
> be elected?  I'd better check the news...
> 
> Neil
> 
> PS - is it red for Republicans, blue for Democrats?  I was getting 
> confused by that, because in the UK red=socialists, 
> blue=conservatives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 15:40:38 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:40:38 +0100
Subject: Reconciliation Time (was  Death of Harry & G.W. Voldemort)
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu> <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00c201c0499a$3eff8be0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5405

> Yes, of course, you are correct - instead of killing any other characters
in
> Books Five-Seven, Voldemort will show his unimaginable evil by causing
huge
> unsightly warts to appear on the noses of his opponents.

<still giggling> Glad you've seen the light, Caius!  ;-)

But we need to take this a step further.  Sooner or later they'll figure out
which of our presidential candidates won (or maybe we could all settle on
the dead one . )--and then it'll be time for reconciliation. Which is always
hard.

So, just to get us warmed up, I hereby propose a more humane resolution to
the HP series, too:

EPILOGUE (Year 2010)

Voldemort has nearly completed rehabilitation in a private clinic for
delusionally psychopathic sorcerers. Biological gardening, carpentry and
cold showers every morning have brought out the tender heart we always knew
he had.  He does suffer occasional relapses, though--particularly when the
House Parents make him spread manure on hot summer days--muttering things
under his breath like, "Gosh darn that avra ka-beep-beep-ed slave driver!"

Fellow patient Lucius Malfoy (known to the wizarding community as Lucky
Luke) emancipated two years ago and is considered a text book case of moral
re-polarization, known for his prize pumpkins, not to mention his inspiring
autobiography: _Lost my Elf and Found Myself_ (All proceeds directed to the
Mungo's newly opened Outpatient Day Clinic  for Socially Challenged Underage
Wizards.)

Lucky Luke's son, Dr. D. Malfoy, assumed directorship of the MODCSCUW last
fall.  From his inaugural address: "Back in 2006 we started our
cross-gifting socialization project, integrating young pure-bloods into
non-magical kindergarten and primary school programs. Ladies and Gentleman,
the results were amazing! Today 87% of wizard-born Hogwarts entrants possess
a basic knowledge of reading and counting, which significantly reduces the
old impression that Mud Bloods are intellectually superior to racially pure
Wizards. In the old days, insecure adolescents used the Dark Arts to
compensate. They don't need that anymore. Today's pure bloods don't just
think they're better--they even know how to write it out!"

Snape, as it turns out, is James: Due to an emotionally scarred childhood,
James developed a multiple corporality disorder, with two separate,
emotionally opposite personalities existing in two different bodies. Thanks
to extensive psychoanalysis and a lot of sex, Snape has regained the half of
his identity Voldemort once destroyed--and Harry the father he always knew
he loved. Excerpt from an interview with Time Turner Inc.: "Well, Rita, if
it hadn't been for your soul-searching reporting, I'd never have been
reconciled with my inner hunk."

Life hasn't been quite as easy for Professor Snape's son, though. At a
personal level, Big Harry had trouble adjusting to Voldemort's change of
heart, and his narrow specialization in Defense Against the Dark Arts proved
unfortunate, given the contemporary job market. However, he enjoys high
demand as a body double in B-films, thanks to those anatomical proportions
which have since become legendary in the HP Fan community.

Recently asked about his plans for the future, Big Harry answered, "Yo, I
got like this awesome breakthrough? My agent's just about got me a part in
the next Baywatch series--I mean, hotdog!!!" When asked about his physical
appearance, Harry responded, "They're like 'Not bad--you can pull your
trunks up, kid--but you gotta do something about that forehead'--and I go,
'Hey, what are plastic surgeons *for,* anyway? You think I'd trade those
babes for this dumb scar??'"

THE END

(There's nothing like a vacation for getting yourself into trouble ... )

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 16:58:30 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:58:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu> <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <004501c049a5$1f9eb4a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5406

Commentary throughout the message, unlike my normal style!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:29 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)


> Hi --
>
> I'm going with this OT thread because this is so damn historic.  Just
> put OT in your subject lines so that people who are so inclined
> (particularly the Brits who may not care at all) can delete emails.  I
> went to sleep at about 11:00 our time, being the pg person that I am --
> baby was demanding that her mommy get some rest.  But, even in
> quasi-sleep, I sort of could halfway see my husband neurotically
> flipping from channel to channel.  I finally woke up at 1:30, got a
> snack & we sat up until they declared Florida for Bush.  We cursed and
> lamented for awhile & went to bed, thinking that at least we'll get a
> new governor out of this.  Imagine our surprise (and delight!!!  Dare we
> hope!!) when we wake up & discover that it's all being recounted in FL.
>
> I've got to say -- this is SO reminiscent of what we in Texas still
> refer to as the "Stolen Election" in 1948 (LBJ and those ballot boxes in
> a couple of counties in So Texas).  As my husband said this morning, Jeb
> Bush better have a clean nose in all of this.  It smacks of fraud
> already.  I haven't heard anyone say why the networks all declared FL
> for Gore at 8:00 p.m. EST and then retracted it 2 hrs later.
>
> Gore is winning the popular vote count, even if Bush takes the electoral
> vote in FL.  Amazing!!!
>

+Thanks Penny for not vetoing the thread!  I am still sitting here,
jittering, like I was awaiting the results of a pregnancy test!


> heidi wrote:
>
> > OT reporting from Miami Dade County, Florida, the epicenter of
> > fingerbiting.
> >
> > I just want to explain to all of you what it's like to be a resident
> > of Miami, Dade County, Florida, this morning.  The difference between
> > the votes is about 500.  500 out of almost six million votes.
> > No pundits can ever remember something like this happening before
> > (although, of course, we're still waiting to recieve some of the
> > overseas ballots) My vote really counted. So did the 3 votes from the
> > first time voters who my brother brought to the polls.
>
> Yes, if nothing else this election should convince all apathetic voters
> (most particularly that most apathetic of all voting groups, the young
> adults between 18-25) that their vote COUNTS.
>
> > And I hate Ralph Nadar in many horrible ways because without him, Gore
> > would have won Florida (according, again, to the exit polls)
>
> I CURSE Ralph Nader & his supporters.  If Dubya wins this thing, it's
> their fault.  You couldn't ask for a more environmentally-friendly
> President than Gore, but instead we'll be stuck with someone who's
> against ratification of the treaty on global warming & plans to drill in
> protected areas in Alaska.  That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm
> sure.  I hope the Nader supporters are all very happy with themselves.
>


+I admit to liking Nader.  I just knew there wasn't a chance in H*ll of him
winning, and if he took the presidency away from Bush, that was a big no-no!
Hence, my uncounted vote for Gore.  Actually, it's not that uncounted.  For
a local example, here in Stark County, Ohio -- Al Gore:73,417 and Bush
76,451.  (Again, we are the most straight-laced bunch of people.....grrrr.
I have to move to California.  At least they know who to vote for!)  (Note:
Nader:3,940 {73,417+3,940=77,357}, Phillips: 187, Browne: 411
{Unfortuneately, many people never got a chance to hear about this guy--he
had some good ideas!},Hagelin:  212, Buchanan {Ick}: 1,453)

> Vivienne wrote:
>
> > Certainly the American pagan/wiccan community have no reason to feel
> > good about Bush's election as when directly questioned about such issues
> >
> > he was empathic about not recognizing witchcraft as a religion.
> > What this means in any real terms is debatable. One man's recognition
> > or lack of recognition may not actually effect the First Amendment
> > Rights that Americans enjoy but such a strong stand on this very minor
> > issue (in terms of the bigger picture) is of concern to the
> > international pagan/magical community.
> >
> Where it matters Vivienne is in the *life-time* appointments of justices
> to our Supreme Court.  *They* have (more or less) the final word on
> interpreting the Constitution, including our Bill of Rights.  The Court
> has been in a rather fragile centrist state for some years now due to
> all the Reagan appointments in the 1980s.  If Dubya should get the
> chance to make more appointments, bye bye abortion rights, bye bye
> freedom of religion, bye bye gun control measures, bye bye gay rights,
> bye bye to lots & lots of other civil liberties.
>

+EXACTLY!  And he is command in chief--doesn't that mean he can make policy
in the military?
> Susan wrote:
>
> > I should have moved to Florida, and offered my hot tubs and massages
> > there.
> >
> Thanks for delivering Michigan anyway!  :--)  It wasn't even remotely
> close in my home state!!
>
> Penny
>
>

+I wish I could have delivered Ohio to Gore.  Sighs.  Then Florida wouldn't
have mattered (We have 21 e-votes).

Am I the only one who thinks the E-college needs to be looked at to
determine if it's still a good idea?  Not saying we should go with popular
vote alone (that would mean the smaller populated states would be outvoted
by Calie or Ohio, or Texas most times), just that it needs examined like a
pain in the neck?

Ok, enough rant.  And yes, I got a whopping 4 hours of sleep -- the last was
mainly trying to get my son to go back to sleep, but I was still under the
covers so I am counting it....  and of course, he's full of Tigger-energy
today!


Time to get back to reading emails again.....

:)

Dee (who is happy for her twinkle-twinkle-little star wished for recount!)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 16:20:00 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:20:00 -0000
Subject: James died first.
In-Reply-To: <20001108142854.10460.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8ubufg+64tn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5407

> I'm going to be physically ill.  Why any sane woman would even
> think of voting for him is just beyond me... 


Well, I know plenty of sane women who would agree with you but also 
plenty who would say exactly the opposite. I really don't like this 
group becoming a political soapbox for anyone's views, my own 
included. Can we all drop the preaching please? If you really want to 
spout political rhetoric, start a separate club. 

Steve





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 16:23:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 08:23:28 PST
Subject: Go Anywhere With A Book - from heidi
Message-ID: <mailman.8.1576214387.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 5408

Hello! heidi has just sent you a greeting card from Bluemountain.com.

You can pick up your personal message here:

http://www2.bluemountain.com/cards/box8576x/cmd7ebsfv8838c.htm

Your card will be available for the next 90 days
This service is 100% FREE! :) Have a good day and have fun!

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Accessing your card indicates agreement with Blue Mountain's Website Rules:
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 16:34:35 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 10:34:35 -0600
Subject: Happy Birthday to Rita/Card from Heidi
Message-ID: <3A09809B.A06D4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5409

Hi --

A belated Happy Birthday to Rita!!!  I got so wrapped up in election day
politics that I forgot to post this to you yesterday.  Hope you had a
wonderful day!

Thanks for the dragon card Heidi -- very cute.  <g>

> Tip: when the baby is between 18-36 months old, a big, big pile of duplos
> at Mom's feet on the office floor is one of the best tricks in your arsenal to
> give you writing time.
>
Okay, I've pondered & pondered . . . and looked it up in the dictionary
. . . what are "duplos"???  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 16:30:10 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 10:30:10 -0600
Subject: Political Discussions (OT)
References: <8ubufg+64tn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A097F92.5A0BE3F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5410

Hi --

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> > I'm going to be physically ill.  Why any sane woman would even
> > think of voting for him is just beyond me...
>
>
> Well, I know plenty of sane women who would agree with you but also
> plenty who would say exactly the opposite. I really don't like this
> group becoming a political soapbox for anyone's views, my own
> included. Can we all drop the preaching please? If you really want to
> spout political rhetoric, start a separate club.

As I said earlier this morning, I think we can continue with this thread
as long as it doesn't get ugly & *personal.*  It's historic for one
thing.  It also won't continue on indefinitely.  And, most of us are
trying to throw in a little HP -- wizarding politics & govt into the
discussions as well.  My caveat is that we need to put something about
Voting, Politics, etc. AND the notation that it's OT.  If it does start
to degenerate into a divisive sort of thing, I'll be the first to step
in & call it off-limits.  But, for now, I think we're all free to
express an opinion on this issue (as long as we label the subject
heading for those who are offended or don't care).  And, I think it's
important that we limit ourselves to simply expressing an opinion or
agreeing with someone else (I happen to agree with Voicelady for
example).  If we devolve into accusations, finger-pointing, name-calling
& the like, then it's clearly time to put an end to the topic on this
group.  If you disagree with someone, fine.  Post a message with your
own counter-view & no mention of (or attack on) their personal stance.
This seems okay to me for now.  Like I said, if it doesn't work, we'll
be forced to just put an end to it.

Steve, my suggestion is that you simply delete unread all emails where
the subject line indicates it has to do with politics.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 16:51:36 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:51:36 -0000
Subject: Political Discussions (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A097F92.5A0BE3F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uc0ao+c27h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5411

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:

> 
> Steve, my suggestion is that you simply delete unread all emails 
where
> the subject line indicates it has to do with politics.
> 
> Penny

Actually, I read the posts online, so I don't delete anything, I just 
have to jump back and forth to the message list a lot. Nothing I 
can't handle :)

As for the extent of allowed OT discussion of a volatile nature, it's 
your list and I bow to your authority on this. Sorry for jumping 
in...I'd already been skipping messages that seemed political so I 
didn't read your instructions of earlier today. I was just getting 
sick of encountering political rhetoric in messages entitled "James 
died first"...

Steve




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Nov  8 16:55:32 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 8 Nov 2000 08:55:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Political Discussions (OT)
Message-ID: <20001108165532.13240.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5412

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001108/895c20be/attachment.ksh>

From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 17:06:05 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:06:05 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida
Message-ID: <8uc15t+4m5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5413

Just letting all of you know where the election results stand (or, 
rather, wobble).

The recount of votes may not be completed until the end of business 
on Thursday - also, ballots cast by Florida registered voters living 
overseas who were required to have their ballots postmarked by 
Tuesday might take up to *ten days* to arrive and to be added to the 
vote count, officials have said. Bush led by fewer than 1,800 votes 
in the election night count. No idea how many of such ballots are 
expected, but in 1996, 2,300 were received, which is more than Bush's 
current margin of victory.
ALSO, they said on teh radio this morning that a WHOLE BOX of ballots 
was "accidentally" left behind in a polling station in Northwest 
Miami Dade County - just so you know, the split in Miami Dade (my 
county) was 53% gore, 46% Bush, so depending on how many ballots were 
in there...well, you can guess!

Trying to find a way to keep this ontopic - In the wizarding world, 
there would be no "absentee ballots" because the voting would all be 
done by owl, much in the same way that oregon has voting by mail.
Discuss.




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 17:07:07 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:07:07 -0000
Subject: Political Discussions (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20001108165532.13240.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8uc17r+imsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5414


> However, I won't apologize for my opinion.  If we all thought 
exactly the same way about things, then the world would certainly be 
a rather boring place.

I would be offended only if you DID apologize for your opinion. And I 
never said what my own opinion was, either, so why do you think you 
would NEED to apologize?

I've found that maturity, like education, is a process of going from 
cocksure certainty to thoughtful uncertainty. I will always be eager 
to hear opinions and reasoning on any subject and consider 
understanding of all sides of an issue the goal of a wise person.

Sheesh, now I'm sounding like a smartass :)

Steve






From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 17:11:49 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:11:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] And the winner is George W. Voldemort
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A098954.BB43AE08@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5415

Seems like this list is overwhelmingly liberal. Guys, Gore won't end the
world for me; Bush won't end it for you. Whenever we find out.

--Amanda

Joywitch wrote:

> It certainly looks as though those of us who live in the U.S. are in
> for a depressing 4 years (if not 8).  Byebye abortion rights,
> environmental protection, gun control and any other shreds of social
> justice.  Bush will probably appoint people with the social
> conscience of Lucius Malfoy to the Supreme Court.  If I only had a
> wand.........
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Nov  8 17:12:07 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:12:07 -0000
Subject: Logo / quote, Duplo and election stuff (and a comment on subject lines)
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPDCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5416

Penny wrote: "If someone feels creative, please feel free to set up an
egroups poll -- we should probably have a group quote.  I like that.  And,
Simon, I like your first logo.  Is anyone else contemplating designing a
logo for us? That's a great idea too!  Would it somehow be inserted into the
header or footer of each message or just be placed on the homepage?"

Thanks. If anyone else decides that they wish to become all artistic then
feel free to do some more possible logos. The two I have done were ideas I
got during the chat on Sunday. I am unsure if we can attach pictures to the
footer / quote area at the bottom of each message - I will investigate.


Penny asked: "Okay, I've pondered & pondered . . . and looked it up in the
dictionary . . . what are "duplos"???  <g>"

I am assuming it is the same as the duplo stuff in the UK.
A type of children's building block toy thing. It is made by Lego (as in the
lot that make Lego) and is designed for younger children (1 year - 5 years
roughly about right if my memory serves me right). It will soon become a
friend if you wish your child to become a construction engineer, or if you
wish to develop hand-eye coordination. It is still one of my favourite toys
and I still have a large collection of Lego - some of which is nearly as old
as me!


Steve wrote: "As for the extent of allowed OT discussion of a volatile
nature, it's your list and I bow to your authority on this. Sorry for
jumping in...I'd already been skipping messages that seemed political so I
didn't read your instructions of earlier today. I was just getting sick of
encountering political rhetoric in messages entitled "James died first"..."

I can understand Steve's point. Off topic discussions of major events, such
as this election issue, are reasonably ok. Can people just make sure the
comments are made in messages with subject lines that reflect the contents
of the message?

This really goes for all messages. The subject line is there as some sort of
summary to the topics of the message. Please update it if the message
subject changes. This especially helps all of us that are involved in
writing FAQ's.


Simon





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 18:11:48 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:11:48 -0600
Subject: Duplos
References: <3A09809B.A06D4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <014401c049af$5d1781e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5417

Duplos are larger sized Legos that tend to amaze children from age one to at
least age three {can't vouch for older than that! :) }  They are about 14.00
for a bus-load, or a fire-truck load of what's called Megablocks, the
generic version.  Ian plays with a bagged version that his godfather bought
him whenever he finds where I hid them in the closet .

[Warning:  Duplos HURT when you step on them, and they tend to wander from
the room where they are played with to strange, undiscovered corners of the
other rooms.  Hence the hiding!]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:34 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday to Rita/Card from Heidi


> Hi --
>
> A belated Happy Birthday to Rita!!!  I got so wrapped up in election day
> politics that I forgot to post this to you yesterday.  Hope you had a
> wonderful day!
>
> Thanks for the dragon card Heidi -- very cute.  <g>
>
> > Tip: when the baby is between 18-36 months old, a big, big pile of
duplos
> > at Mom's feet on the office floor is one of the best tricks in your
arsenal to
> > give you writing time.
> >
> Okay, I've pondered & pondered . . . and looked it up in the dictionary
> . . . what are "duplos"???  <g>
>
> Penny
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Nov  8 17:16:24 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:16:24 -0000
Subject: A few OT comments
Message-ID: <8uc1p8+lj51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5418

Hi all--

Just wanted to make a few remarks;  belated wishes for Penny's and 
Rita's birthdays (add me to the scorpions nest-- Oct. 31), and also 
my congratulations to Penny on your impending motherhood.  That's 
wonderful news, and I'm really happy for you!

And, I'm also a Texan who voted for Gore, so much for that vote 
counting--had I known I might've moved to Florida just long enough to 
cast my vote there.  Dubya seems like such a bozo to me, sorry to any 
of his supporters out there.  I'm still crossing fingers and praying 
for Al.

Promise I'll be Harry-related next time.

Kelley




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 17:18:59 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:18:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion for a group quote
References: <B62E3F3C.7BE1%john@walton.to> <3A0976F6.3FB4CA8F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A098B02.9549BFFA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5419

Whenever you figure out what you want, I'll give you the URL for the site
that does free Latin translations.

--Amanda

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Hi --
>
> John Walton wrote:
>
> > I have a suggestion for a quote to be appended to the group messages
> > (::looks at the listparents::). It's from PS, which I've currently
> > lent out, but it's right after HHR have thumped the Mountain Troll,
> > and goes something like this:
> >
> > "There are some things you just can't go through together without
> > ending up friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll is one
> > of them."
> >
> > Could someone look up the quote, and do the listparents feel like
> > having
> > one?
>
> If someone feels creative, please feel free to set up an egroups poll --
> we should probably have a group quote.  I like that.  And, Simon, I like
> your first logo.  Is anyone else contemplating designing a logo for us?
> That's a great idea too!  Would it somehow be inserted into the header
> or footer of each message or just be placed on the homepage?
>
> Penny
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Nov  8 17:23:21 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:23:21 -0800
Subject: OT: The election cliffhanger (was: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT))
In-Reply-To: <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net>
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001108091235.00d8b390@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5420

At 08:29 AM 11/8/00 -0600, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>I'm going with this OT thread because this is so damn historic.

I consider it okay for this thread if only because I'm now seriously
considering writting a fanfic in which Hermione (grown up, of course)
runs against Cornileus "Dubya" Fudge for Minsiter of Magic, with a *very*
close race, a "spoiler" third candidate, and possible dirty tricks at the polls
by the Death Eaters.

>Just put OT in your subject lines so that people who are so inclined
>(particularly the Brits who may not care at all) can delete emails.

 From the posts I see on political lists I'm on, the Britons care very
much how this election turns out.

>Gore is winning the popular vote count, even if Bush takes the electoral
>vote in FL.  Amazing!!!

If Gore wins the popular vote but Bush still wins in the electoral college,
Dubya is in for a nasty four years and a likely landslide defeat in 2004
(Just ask John Quincy Adams!).



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 17:20:28 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:20:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James died first.
References: <8ubufg+64tn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A098B5B.A0C9472F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5421

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> > I'm going to be physically ill.  Why any sane woman would even
> > think of voting for him is just beyond me...
>
> Well, I know plenty of sane women who would agree with you but also
> plenty who would say exactly the opposite. I really don't like this
> group becoming a political soapbox for anyone's views, my own
> included. Can we all drop the preaching please? If you really want to
> spout political rhetoric, start a separate club.

Thank you thank you thank you. I know what I think but I really didn't want
to start going into it here. Like we don't have enough to deal with with all
the Harry Potter questions.

--Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 18:18:02 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:18:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - update from florida A WHOLE BOX?
References: <8uc15t+4m5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015401c049b0$3bf11160$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5422

Ok.  I am calm.  There are strange things happening in Florida that I do not
understand.  Heidi, is this normal?  Calling in 27 prec.'s workers to
recount absentee ballots that SHOULD have been counted by the normal time?
Missing ballot boxes in that one county?  The one that your county found?
This isn't even including the mess with Buchanan/Gore votes in Palm
(something) County with the senior citizens who thought they had voted their
minds, and were wrong.

This election has soo many headaches, and Florida being such a "BIG" thing
in the eyes of the country make these errors, etc. inflated perhaps.... but
they do worry me.  Especially with Jeb (I know, he might be a fair man, or
he might be a crook--I don't know him at all) and his family connections.

:~
Dee

----- Original Message -----
From: "heidi tandy" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:06 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - update from florida


> Just letting all of you know where the election results stand (or,
> rather, wobble).
>
> The recount of votes may not be completed until the end of business
> on Thursday - also, ballots cast by Florida registered voters living
> overseas who were required to have their ballots postmarked by
> Tuesday might take up to *ten days* to arrive and to be added to the
> vote count, officials have said. Bush led by fewer than 1,800 votes
> in the election night count. No idea how many of such ballots are
> expected, but in 1996, 2,300 were received, which is more than Bush's
> current margin of victory.
> ALSO, they said on teh radio this morning that a WHOLE BOX of ballots
> was "accidentally" left behind in a polling station in Northwest
> Miami Dade County - just so you know, the split in Miami Dade (my
> county) was 53% gore, 46% Bush, so depending on how many ballots were
> in there...well, you can guess!
>
> Trying to find a way to keep this ontopic - In the wizarding world,
> there would be no "absentee ballots" because the voting would all be
> done by owl, much in the same way that oregon has voting by mail.
> Discuss.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 17:37:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:37:53 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida A WHOLE BOX?
In-Reply-To: <015401c049b0$3bf11160$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8uc31h+7b13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5423

Honestly, I don't know how normal or abnormal this is. We had an 
election for mayor a few years back which was overturned because of 
major league ballot fraud but I have no idea if any of this is 
anything similar - it could be just a little accident or something. 
And the Palm Beach County ballots were a little confusing but the 
estimate is that no more than 400 people could have misvoted, because 
that's the whole tally for Buchanan in that county anyway. 
All we can do is sit and wait for a few more days & see what actually 
happens. 
But it is a very strange feeling like being trapped in some weird 
limbo.
I really need a Pensieve after last night...and this morning...and 
this afternoon

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> Ok.  I am calm.  There are strange things happening in Florida that 
I do not
> understand.  Heidi, is this normal?  Calling in 27 prec.'s workers 
to
> recount absentee ballots that SHOULD have been counted by the 
normal time?
> Missing ballot boxes in that one county?  The one that your county 
found?
> This isn't even including the mess with Buchanan/Gore votes in Palm
> (something) County with the senior citizens who thought they had 
voted their
> minds, and were wrong.
> 
> This election has soo many headaches, and Florida being such a 
"BIG" thing
> in the eyes of the country make these errors, etc. inflated 
perhaps.... but
> they do worry me.  Especially with Jeb (I know, he might be a fair 
man, or
> he might be a crook--I don't know him at all) and his family 
connections.
> 
> :~
> Dee
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "heidi tandy" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:06 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - update from florida
> 
> 
> > Just letting all of you know where the election results stand (or,
> > rather, wobble).
> >
> > The recount of votes may not be completed until the end of 
business
> > on Thursday - also, ballots cast by Florida registered voters 
living
> > overseas who were required to have their ballots postmarked by
> > Tuesday might take up to *ten days* to arrive and to be added to 
the
> > vote count, officials have said. Bush led by fewer than 1,800 
votes
> > in the election night count. No idea how many of such ballots are
> > expected, but in 1996, 2,300 were received, which is more than 
Bush's
> > current margin of victory.
> > ALSO, they said on teh radio this morning that a WHOLE BOX of 
ballots
> > was "accidentally" left behind in a polling station in Northwest
> > Miami Dade County - just so you know, the split in Miami Dade (my
> > county) was 53% gore, 46% Bush, so depending on how many ballots 
were
> > in there...well, you can guess!
> >
> > Trying to find a way to keep this ontopic - In the wizarding 
world,
> > there would be no "absentee ballots" because the voting would all 
be
> > done by owl, much in the same way that oregon has voting by mail.
> > Discuss.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 17:53:43 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:53:43 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Top=20of=20Class?=
Message-ID: <f7.45d0bd6.273aed27@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5424


"Simon J. Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>writes:

>Subject: Top of Class (James, Sirius and Lupin), polotics
>
>Sam wrote: "In a recent discussion it was said that Lupin and Hermione
>aren't 'true' parallels because Hermione is top of all of her classes,
>whilst Lupin wasn't because James and Sirius, on the evidence of McGonagall
>(I think?)."
>
>McGonagall said (PoA Ch 10): "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little
>gang. Both very bright, of course - exceptionally bright, in fact - but
>I
>don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers -"
>
>Lupin say (PoA Ch 18): "Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest
>students in the school"
>
>McGonagall does not say, based on the above quote (if anyone can find other
>evidence then let us know), that Sirius and James were top of the year.
>Only
>that they were exceptionally bright. This leaves space for at least one
>person to be above them. Lupin is too modest to include himself in the
>line
>about Sirius and James being the cleverest at the school. So it is not
>exactly clear where he fits into this cleverness league.

I agree that Lupin is too modest to include himself. However, we do know who 
was tops academically (at least among the boys)- James, as he was named Head 
Boy. Lupin or Sirius - or another- may have been #2. "Cleverest" as 
McGonagall was describing would not necessarily refer to class placement. She 
may have been considering  pranks played, erudite excuses, and to further mix 
metaphors, chutzpah (An Esoteric term, believed to refer to the essential 
latent or actualized distinguishing quality of a Griffindor). 

Aylihael, who is a bit punchy after late night election news, and trying to 
type with her fingers and eyes crossed while the miraculous re-count is 
happening



From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 18:02:08 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:02:08 -0000
Subject: More clippings from The Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <5b.da0ab54.27399d54@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8uc4f0+jb0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5425

> This is great!  How does one subscribe?

A one year subscription to THE DAILY PROPHET is easy to obtain, just 
write your name on piece of parchment and instruct your owl to send 
it and 35 galleons to the subscription department of the DAILY 
PROPHET CORPORATION. If you live in the southern hemisphere and want 
your paper delivered by first class owl to ensure same day delivery 
it's 45 galleons. It's surprised I have to explain these things to 
you 







.




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 18:06:54 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:06:54 EST
Subject: Politics in this group
Message-ID: <26.d10910d.273af03e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5426


In a message dated 11/8/00 9:25:04 AM, Penny writes:

>As I said earlier this morning, I think we can continue with this thread
>
>as long as it doesn't get ugly & *personal.*  It's historic for one
>
>thing.  It also won't continue on indefinitely.

Thank you Penny!
Aylihael, quoting just the deciding statement in Penny's e-mail, tho I agreed 
with all of it - Well said Penny! 



From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov  8 18:02:39 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:02:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
References: <3A09809B.A06D4@swbell.net> <014401c049af$5d1781e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <00f901c049ae$161843c0$806a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5427


----- Original Message -----
From: "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>


> Duplos are larger sized Legos that tend to amaze children from age one to
at
> least age three {can't vouch for older than that! :) }  They are about
14.00
> for a bus-load, or a fire-truck load of what's called Megablocks, the
> generic version.  Ian plays with a bagged version that his godfather
bought
> him whenever he finds where I hid them in the closet .
>

But Megablocks are bigger than duplos...and duplos are bigger than
legos...but you need all three as the years go by. So Penny...get the mega
blocks first...the smaller the hand the bigger the block...then progress to
duplos...they have all sorts of cool sets...dinos, pooh bear...maybe by the
time you are buying they'll have a little HP set!!!!  They don't get into
real legos until about 6 or 7.

> [Warning:  Duplos HURT when you step on them, and they tend to wander from
> the room where they are played with to strange, undiscovered corners of
the
> other rooms.  Hence the hiding!]

Yes!!! I swear there is a duplo block at all times in all rooms of my house,
no matter how many times I put them away and in the basement...they creep
out of their hiding places and lurk to jump out under your foot when you are
carrying a basket of laundry!

carole








From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov  8 17:53:55 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:53:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reconciliation Time
References: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com> <009601c04962$a11f9c80$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu> <3A096347.73B7A674@swbell.net> <00c201c0499a$3eff8be0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <00f301c049ac$dfc4e7c0$806a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5428


----- Original Message -----
From: "Aberforths_Goat" <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>

> But we need to take this a step further.  Sooner or later they'll figure
out
> which of our presidential candidates won (or maybe we could all settle on
> the dead one . )--and then it'll be time for reconciliation. Which is
always
> hard.
>
> So, just to get us warmed up, I hereby propose a more humane resolution to
> the HP series, too:
>
> EPILOGUE (Year 2010)
>

<snip>

> THE END
>
> (There's nothing like a vacation for getting yourself into trouble ... )
>

ROFLOL!!!!!  That was great...perfect to break the tension of this
post-election day....

carole







From eliasberg at ioc.net  Wed Nov  8 18:42:58 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:42:58 -0000
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <8ub0hb+hqll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uc6ri+v184@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5429

Let's be clear it has become a battle of the lesser of two 
weasels, neither person running for president has the character 
I expect from a friend, definetly not for President of the US. 
Neither will kill us and I hope if Gore loses he wont take his 
invention (the internet) away, because I love reading all the 
posts. 

Dave




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Nov  8 18:55:47 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 8 Nov 2000 10:55:47 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
Message-ID: <20001108185547.15534.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5430

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001108/1cad16cb/attachment.ksh>

From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 18:55:14 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:55:14 -0000
Subject: merchandise (& OT rambling about QVC, but no politics)
In-Reply-To: <011d01c0497b$82fd0940$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8uc7ii+ccsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5431

Nick wrote:

<<<Warner Bros told me that QVC has some HP products at
http://www.iqvc.com - go there & search for Harry potter - they have
a towel, some books, the train bookends, the litho, snowglobes and
the GoF audiobook - they also are planning a Harry Potter hour some
time in the next few weeks, and they will be carrying the Christmas
Ornaments, which are sold out thru the catalog.

PS.  QVC UK does not have any Harry Potter items.>>>

Shame on them!  In my experience QVC UK yields to pressure from its 
viewers and might well start a Harry Potter hour before long if they 
get enough letters (and permission from WB...hmmmm).  They tend to go 
for collectables that have cult status, such as Star Trek 
merchandise.  I reckon there are people in Britain who would cough up 
a few quid for some Harry Potter trinkets, don't you?  I was just 
thinking the other day how frighteningly close we are getting to 
Trekker-type behaviour. Does anyone remember that woman who appeared 
in court in her Star Trek uniform?  Be warned... stay sane.

The encouraging thing is that the UK version of QVC is very US-
biased, often featuring US products that are unavailable through 
other outlets. Sometimes these are ludicrous items like strap-on 
facial massagers that make you like a Deatheater (promoted by an ex-
Dallas actress with perky skin), but other times they are things like 
dirt cheap rare Pokemon card sets that just set the phones alight... 

It's only a matter of time.

Neil, who, sadly, already has a QVC membership number and watches "In 
The Salon With Alison" for laughs.





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Nov  8 19:09:29 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:09:29 -0000
Subject: head boy =/=> top of class. Then something on the American election / Harry, Duplo and childrens toys
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPGCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5432

Aylihael wrote: "I agree that Lupin is too modest to include himself.
However, we do know who was tops academically (at least among the boys)-
James, as he was named Head Boy. Lupin or Sirius - or another- may have been
#2."

Not so.
Head boy =/=>  Top of class.
For those who are unsure '=/=>' means 'does not implies that' (=> means
implies so a cross through this negates it to does not imply).


Voicelady wrote: "In the long run, no matter our positions on the candidates
and the final outcome, I know we all agree on the most important thing:
Harry Potter rules!"

Unfortunately he didn't get in. Something to do with him not being American,
old enough and then simple lack of votes.
Oh well - maybe next time!


Carole wrote: "then progress to duplos...they have all sorts of cool
sets...dinos, pooh bear...maybe by the time you are buying they'll have a
little HP set!!!!"

Sweet memories come flooding back. I got a friend a Pooh bear duplo set for
her 21st birthday (could not be bothered with the normal present with 21
splashed all over it).
Children's toys rule. Now do we get onto Lego about making Harry Potter
sets?


Simon




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov  8 19:15:13 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 19:15:13 -0000
Subject: Chutzpah and Gryffindor (was top of class)
In-Reply-To: <f7.45d0bd6.273aed27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8uc8o1+c42r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5433

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, SHENmagic at a... wrote:
Cleverest" as 
> McGonagall was describing would not necessarily refer to class
placement. She 
> may have been considering  pranks played, erudite excuses, and to
further mix 
> metaphors, chutzpah (An Esoteric term, believed to refer to the
essential 
> latent or actualized distinguishing quality of a Griffindor). 
> 

Sorry, no. Slytherins may also have  chutzpah; who else would murder 
their parents, then plead for mercy as an orphan?  (the classical 
definition of  the essential latent or actualized distinguishing 
quality of a chutzpahnik)
<vbg>
Pippin





From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 19:31:09 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 14:31:09 EST
Subject: Lily and James' death
Message-ID: <29.c516e0d.273b03fd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5434

Steve said:
> As I wrote in the Lexicon, I think the other Death Eater, the one who 
> killed James and Lily, was Barty Crouch Jr. I can't see Pettigrew 
> doing it once Voldemort was defeated.

How would Pettigrew get Voldemort's wand then? I don't think Crouch Sr. would 
have allowed Barty to keep a wand. 

Ellie



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 19:32:34 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 19:32:34 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida
In-Reply-To: <8uc15t+4m5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uc9oi+qhq4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5435

Hello from an American classroom--  :)

Had a VERY tense morning here... all of us teachers are 
watching Florida... the kids are on edge... many, many Michigan 
folks have winter homes/family ties/connections to FL.  My 
maternal family is all from Florida...  If this was any other state, I 
could go on with life, the universe, and Harry Potter discussions 
in that order.

Anyone who says this election is not relevant to Harry Potter is 
out of their minds.  It is not inconceivable that the result of this 
election will determine or influence whether or not I can teach 
Harry Potter in my classroom.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> ALSO, they said on teh radio this morning that a WHOLE BOX 
of ballots 
> was "accidentally" left behind in a polling station in Northwest 
> Miami Dade County - just so you know, the split in Miami Dade 
(my 
> county) was 53% gore, 46% Bush, so depending on how many 
ballots were 
> in there...well, you can guess!

The missing box was announced on PBS in the "wee sma's" 
here, Heidi.  None of my colleagues knew anything about this.  
The major national networks are ignoring (wisely?) this story.  

(BTW, although I contemplated the "what ifs" re: voting in FL, with 
the recount I'm rather glad I didn't do anything so unethical.  I 
already fought a good fight in MI, where Gore's win was not 
guaranteed.  My constituency in FL turned out in record 
numbers--I just got off the phone with some of the folks down 
there.  If my harshness 2 years ago affected at least one new 
voter, I'm glad to have done my part.)

Another story that may or may not be true is voter harassment 
and poll blocking amongst certain minority groups.  The phone 
lines of national black radio stations this morning were *lit* up 
with horror stories from all over the country--racial profiling, 
inadequate polling facilities, etc.  

Here, hundreds of registered voters DID NOT VOTE after 
standing in line for hours due to inept polling facilities.  Federal 
judges were appealed to on behalf of these voters here and in a 
few other places nationwide (largely urban, poor, and 
minority)--unanimously, these were struck down.  For the first 
time since the seventies, more than 85% of African  Americans 
nationwide voted (yes!).  According to the morning show I 
commute listening to, the Miami Herald reported 86% of blacks 
and Hispanics in Dade County voting--is that true, Heidi?

The interesting factor in all this is that the history of  late 
twentieth-century elections shows that high overall turnout favors 
Dems; low turnout favors Republicans.   So a scenario of Gore 
winning the popular vote and Bush winning the electorate is 
quite plausible.

I do know one thing.  From what I know of Florida politics and 
demographics, it *might* be a good idea to prepare the National 
Guard.  Either way this goes, with tension running that high, the 
potential for civil unrest is high.  I have a very, very bad feeling 
about all this that I cannot shake...

Got to go now... journal time in my classroom of 32 is coming to 
an end and I have a lesson on propaganda to teach.  :)  The kids 
are getting antsy again... they're done with journals on the 
election and are chomping at the bit to discuss.

Presidents may come and presidents may go.  But long live 
Harry Potter--the Boy Who Lived!!!

--Ebony




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 20:41:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:41:03 -0600
Subject: Build your own Hogwarts!  (toys)
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPGCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <004901c049c4$36fad600$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5436

Build your own Hogwarts!

In just a few short months (Or a day if you're under 13), you too can have
your own copy of Hogwarts, the magickal school of the arts from the Harry
Potter series.  Included are bricks that resemble paintings of the Fat Lady
and her friends, and other of the highly animated subjects such as Mrs.
Norris (her legs move!), Fang, and Norbert, who fits comfortably on the
North Tower when you get it build.

Even included is the playing field for the Quidditch matches, and the bubble
wands to use for Goals.

The set comes with five lego-people, drawn to resemble wizards (meaning they
aren't well done!):  Hagrid, Dumbledore, Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Snape.
There are expansion sets for only $20 per set that include other wizards and
muggles.

Get these Legos now!  For the low low price of only $200, you get 1675 Legos
guaranteed to annoy any adult feet!

LOL




> Carole wrote: "then progress to duplos...they have all sorts of cool
> sets...dinos, pooh bear...maybe by the time you are buying they'll have a
> little HP set!!!!"
>
> Sweet memories come flooding back. I got a friend a Pooh bear duplo set
for
> her 21st birthday (could not be bothered with the normal present with 21
> splashed all over it).
> Children's toys rule. Now do we get onto Lego about making Harry Potter
> sets?
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
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From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Nov  8 19:43:23 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 14:43:23 -0500
Subject: Duplos (OT)
References: <md5:4AF315AB925F053A535676BEBF7D5AE1>
Message-ID: <3A09ACDB.29545483@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5437



> Tip: when the baby is between 18-36 months old, a big, big pile of duplos

> > at Mom's feet on the office floor is one of the best tricks in your arsenal to
> > give you writing time.
> >
> Okay, I've pondered & pondered . . . and looked it up in the dictionary
> . . . what are "duplos"???  <g>
>
> Penny
>
>

They are like overgrown Legos.  Big, chunky blocks that lock together--too big to choke
on, but small enough to store fairly easily.  They will become your best friends...

drpam
\who is reasonably sure that magical moms must have invented this toy.




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov  8 19:53:14 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:53:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
Message-ID: <20001108195314.10549.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5438

--- lrcjestes <lrcjestes at msn.com> skrev: > 
[snip-a-lot]
> ...maybe by the
> time you are buying they'll have a little HP set!!!!

The Lego-corporation did acquire merchandise-rights
for the HP-movie (as they did for Star Wars:  The
Phantom Menace), so we WILL be seeing HP-Lego by Nov.
2001 (Just in time for Christmas - would you imagine
the coincidence).  I don't know about Duplo, though. 
I was under the impression that it was being
discontinued. 
 
[snip]
> Yes!!! I swear there is a duplo block at all times
> in all rooms of my house,
> no matter how many times I put them away and in the
> basement...they creep
> out of their hiding places and lurk to jump out
> under your foot when you are
> carrying a basket of laundry!
> 
As my parents would certainly testify was the case in
my younger years...


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov  8 19:56:01 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:56:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
Message-ID: <20001108195601.10994.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5439

In times like these I am elated to live in a monarchy.
 We only have one national election every 4 years, and
it decides both the Legislative and the Executive
branch.

--- eliasberg at ioc.net skrev: > Let's be clear it has
become a battle of the lesser
> of two 
> weasels, neither person running for president has
> the character 
> I expect from a friend, definetly not for President
> of the US. 
> Neither will kill us and I hope if Gore loses he
> wont take his 
> invention (the internet) away, because I love
> reading all the 
> posts. 
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 19:57:06 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:57:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
References: <3A09809B.A06D4@swbell.net> <014401c049af$5d1781e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <00f901c049ae$161843c0$806a5ecf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A09B012.58F93FCB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5440

lrcjestes wrote:

> Yes!!! I swear there is a duplo block at all times in all rooms of my house,
> no matter how many times I put them away and in the basement...they creep
> out of their hiding places and lurk to jump out under your foot when you are
> carrying a basket of laundry!

Actually, it was one of those big wooden puzzle pieces, you know, four pieces in
total, with the little sticky-up handles, that I trod upon one time while
carrying son #1. I did not drop him, or fall, but it was close. And I swear I
heard a teeny little evil snicker as the piece scuttled away. Amazing how so
many toys that are supposedly safe for babies are downright dangerous to
parents.

--Amanda




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 19:57:14 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:57:14 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
Message-ID: <4d.337c889.273b0a1a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5441

The other main topic of discussion on the HP list ... besides the election 
(the Draco's chest controversy is on the PoU list).  We all obviously need 
more to do! <g>

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
Quidditch is life ... the rest is just details.



From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 19:59:10 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:59:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
References: <8uc6ri+v184@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A09B08E.160D7D4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5442

eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> I hope if Gore loses he wont take his
> invention (the internet) away, because I love reading all the
> posts.

ROTFL! Hey, did anyone else see (and love) that Snickers commercial? I only
caught it once, but it took me quite a long time to stop laughing.

--Amanda




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov  8 20:05:45 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:05:45 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida
In-Reply-To: <8uc9oi+qhq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ucbmp+gm6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5443

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony " <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> 
> The missing box was announced on PBS in the "wee sma's" 
> here, Heidi.  None of my colleagues knew anything about this.  
> The major national networks are ignoring (wisely?) this story.  
> 

CNN is now reporting it at least on their website (I assume it's been 
on the tv as well) - it's at 
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/08/ballotbox.found/

I don't know how many ballots are in the box, but after they 
Alohamora it and tally it up, I would be very surprised if there 
weren't enough Gore votes in there to push him into the lead - the 
article on CNN says that it's a heavily democratic precinct. However, 
I'm trying not to be overoptimistic. 
Turnout here in Dade County was estimated at 80%, and since the 
Hispanic population in this county is the majority, it would make 
sense that the hispanic vote was in the high 80's percentagewise. 
I'll see if the Herald has any more informaiton about the turnout 
components. 


more reports from the front to come....




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 20:04:51 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:04:51 -0000
Subject: Lily and James' death
In-Reply-To: <29.c516e0d.273b03fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ucbl3+lhbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5444

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> Steve said:
> > As I wrote in the Lexicon, I think the other Death Eater, the one 
who 
> > killed James and Lily, was Barty Crouch Jr. I can't see Pettigrew 
> > doing it once Voldemort was defeated.
> 
> How would Pettigrew get Voldemort's wand then? I don't think Crouch 
Sr. would 
> have allowed Barty to keep a wand. 
> 
> Ellie

The entire Longbottom incident was quite some time after the events of 
10/31/81, possibly as long as a year. We have no idea at all what may 
have happened in that year. But at the time of the attack on the 
Potters, Crouch Jr. was certainly not known as a DE by anyone on the 
"good guys" side. That wasn't even clear when the attack on the 
Longbottoms happened -- they couldnt' testify against him. The trial 
we saw of Crouch etc. was an example of how Crouch Sr. was obsessed to 
the point of imprisoning his own son without substantive proof.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http:/www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov  8 20:10:45 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:10:45 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida
In-Reply-To: <8ucbmp+gm6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ucc05+fp4e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5445


> I don't know how many ballots are in the box, but after they 
> Alohamora it and tally it up, I would be very surprised if there 
> weren't enough Gore votes in there to push him into the lead - the 
> article on CNN says that it's a heavily democratic precinct. 
However, 

CNN is reporting that the missing box held supplies, not votes.

Steve




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 20:05:39 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 14:05:39 -0600
Subject: New question
References: <20001108185547.15534.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3A09B213.3BACBB52@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5446

I have a "what's your take" question for everyone, that I'm not sure I'll word correctly, but here goes. Do these books glorify rule-breaking? By that I
mean the attitude that rules are fine unless you need to ignore them, and you get to decide when that is, and the end justifies the means? Kind of like my
dad, who seemed sometimes to believe in rules in theory but not in practice (i.e., he thought pollution controls and obligatory added equipment on older
vehicles was great, but not on *his* truck, since he couldn't afford it and clearly he should be excepted, they should be reasonable, etc.). It just
occurred to me that this was a possible interpretation, and as this is the first possibly negative meta-message I've detected in these books, I wondered
what you all thought.

--Amanda

>
>
> Voice "I have a problem" lady.
> current book: The Amber Spyglass
> Current CD: Fastball's "The Harsh Light of Day"
> _____________________________________________________________
> This email message was sent via MailStation(tm) - a trademark
> of CIDCO Incorporated.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 21:14:32 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 251
Message-ID: <20001108211433.26492.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5447

>    Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:16:48 -0600
>    From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
> Subject: Re: Red vs. Blue for Neil (OT)
> 
> Hi --
> 
> Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
> 
> > PS - is it red for Republicans, blue for Democrats?  I was getting
> > confused by that, because in the UK red=socialists,
> > blue=conservatives.
> >
> 
> Yes -- Red = Republican and Blue = Democrat on the TV news maps over
> here.  I'm not sure *why* this is so.
> 
> Penny
> 

I may be able to provide a theory on this. Most news stations democratic in their
feelings, as they have close ties with Hollywood and the entertainment business is
democratic anyways. Now, I'm not for Bush but a Conservative pointed this out and I
realized that he could be right. When watching the news, look at the pictures of
Gore and Bush: Gore is usually smiling or else has a plain look to his face, and
his picture is surrounded in blue. Colors can be used psychologically, and blue is
the color everyone likes because it's a peaceful color. Now, look at Bush's
picture. Bush is usually portrayed (unless you watch Fox News, a mostly
conservative station) frowining or scowling, or if he has a plain face, his face
will have that one little "fold" to make it look "mean." His picture is surrounded
in red, and red is usually portrayed as an agressive color, a "mean" color.

This is my theory provided to me by a Conservative who was whining on how biased
the news stations were (oh, yeah, as if Fox News isn't biased). 

From,

Anake N.

__________________________________________________
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From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 20:56:30 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:56:30 EST
Subject: Legos and Duplos
Message-ID: <3d.33a32de.273b17fe@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5448


In a message dated 11/8/00 12:13:32 PM, HPforGrownups at egroups.com writes:

>The Lego-corporation did acquire merchandise-rights
>
>for the HP-movie (as they did for Star Wars:  The
>
>Phantom Menace), so we WILL be seeing HP-Lego by Nov.
>
>2001 (Just in time for Christmas - would you imagine
>
>the coincidence). 

Oh boy oh boy!

You can all come visit me; I live 20 minutes south of Carlsbad, California, 
home to Legoland. I've never been to Legoland - I get sidetracked and go to 
Questhaven Retreat, looking for all the fairies and devas said to live 
there....
Aylihael



From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 21:01:41 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:01:41 -0000
Subject: glorification of rule breaking
In-Reply-To: <3A09B213.3BACBB52@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ucevl+7ja4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5449


Hi all - amanda, 
I think its really complex - the mauraders break the rules and don't 
seem to suffer any consequences. When Harry breaks rules for 'the 
greater good' he gets rewarded (in a sence), not chucked out of 
Hogwarts (COS), extra points (PS) but when he has lessor infractions 
he does get punished - sneaking around the school after bed time 
getting rid of Hagrid's dragon (COS).

OTOH she does show ppl (like Voldemort, the Dursely's) doing terrble 
things and not getting pusnished - which is sadly like real life (at 
least in my experance!<g>)

seems to me that what JKR is doing is letting Harry/readers work out 
what is moral and right to do and what is not, providing him with 
some guidence but not being terribly directive. (which is the way to 
get kids to internalise values as I understand it)

sometimes the right thing to do is to challenge authority and the 
main thing is to be able to recognise those situations. I think that 
is the moral, not that it is good to break rules. THis is a 
considerabley more complex message than most 'children's books' and 
one which I suspect makes some readers uncomfortable.

storm

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I have a "what's your take" question for everyone, that I'm not 
sure I'll word correctly, but here goes. Do these books glorify rule-
breaking? By that I
> mean the attitude that rules are fine unless you need to ignore 
them, and you get to decide when that is, and the end justifies the 
means? Kind of like my
> dad, who seemed sometimes to believe in rules in theory but not in 
practice (i.e., he thought pollution controls and obligatory added 
equipment on older
> vehicles was great, but not on *his* truck, since he couldn't 
afford it and clearly he should be excepted, they should be 
reasonable, etc.). It just
> occurred to me that this was a possible interpretation, and as this 
is the first possibly negative meta-message I've detected in these 
books, I wondered
> what you all thought.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> >
> >
> > Voice "I have a problem" lady.
> > current book: The Amber Spyglass
> > Current CD: Fastball's "The Harsh Light of Day"
> > _____________________________________________________________
> > This email message was sent via MailStation(tm) - a trademark
> > of CIDCO Incorporated.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 21:14:30 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:14:30 -0600
Subject: Affect of Election on HP (OT sort of); Duplos/Leggos
References: <8uc9oi+qhq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A09C236.7243CC9D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5450

Hi --

Ebony wrote:

> Anyone who says this election is not relevant to Harry Potter is
> out of their minds.  It is not inconceivable that the result of this
> election will determine or influence whether or not I can teach
> Harry Potter in my classroom.

This is very true -- and partially influences why I think these
discussions can continue for now.  One only needs to think about the
recent Supreme Court decision Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe
to know that it's a fairly fragile majority on the Supreme Court
upholding our Bill of Rights.  This particular ruling had to do with
whether students could deliver a Christian prayer over the public
address system at public school functions (such as football games).  The
Supreme Court held 6-3 that this violates the Establishment Clause of
our Constitution.

This is the *same* school district that recently banned HP in the
classrooms and requires parental permission slips to check HP out of
school libraries.  Muggles for HP is actively fighting this decision.

The *same* school district has also, incidentally, narrowly (4-3) voted
against a proposed ban of books with even a single word of profanity (a
ban that would have prevented the instruction or use in classrooms of
such classics such as Where the Red Fern Grows, Pride & Prejudice & Call
of the Wild).

The election affects the future character of the Supreme Court.  The
Supreme Court has an enormous amount of influence on our daily lives.
Changing the composition of the Supreme Court could affect a number of
"rights" that we all take for granted.

> Here, hundreds of registered voters DID NOT VOTE after
> standing in line for hours due to inept polling facilities.  Federal
> judges were appealed to on behalf of these voters here and in a
> few other places nationwide (largely urban, poor, and
> minority)--unanimously, these were struck down.

I was a bit confused by television reports last night -- is this the
reason that a judge in St. Louis ruled that the polls there needed to
reopen &/or stay open a longer period of time?  I never heard an exact
reason but it makes sense that this could be the reason.

Thanks to all who cleared up my confusion on duplos.  I have a lot to
learn, eh?  <g>

> Presidents may come and presidents may go.  But long live
> Harry Potter--the Boy Who Lived!!!
>

Thanks Ebony!!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 21:07:45 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:07:45 -0000
Subject: ? for JKR
Message-ID: <8ucfb1+gu0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5451

In the likely event that JKR does another publicisty round at some 
stage can I put up at potenital question about why Nichols Fannel and 
P (can't remember her name) died when the POhilosphers stone was 
destroyed?

(or has she ansered this somewhere else that I haven't come across?)

storm




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov  8 21:41:28 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:41:28 -0000
Subject: New question
In-Reply-To: <3A09B213.3BACBB52@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ucha8+kmv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5452

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I have a "what's your take" question for everyone, that I'm not
sure I'll word correctly, but here goes. Do these books glorify
rule-breaking?<<

This issue  has been raised by those who are critical of  the 
books, feeling that they encourage children to defy authority. 
	I think the series presents both pros and cons, and encourages the 
reader to consider them.  
	The peril of trusting one's own judgment  is made clear: imagine 
what would have happened in SS if Hermione had set Snape on fire, but 
hadn't knocked into Quirrel. A much shorter series!
	 Harry & co. muddle through despite their mistakes in judgment, 
but Sirius  suffers, er, dire consequences. He makes two reckless 
attempts to break into Gryffindor tower, which gain him nothing and 
prejudice his case. (Why the heck didn't he just send Dumbledore an
owl explaining the whole mess and warning him about Pettigrew?) 

>>>By that I
 mean the attitude that rules are fine unless you need to ignore
them, and you get to decide when that is, and the end justifies the
means? <<<

	Using any means to achieve your ends is a Slytherin trait, 
according to the Hat. Dumbledore says that "a certain disregard for 
rules" is a prized quality in Slytherin. The implication is that this 
path to greatness  may lead you into the Dark. I wonder if this is
what happened to Snape, and one reason he comes down so hard on Harry 
for rule breaking.

	My two knuts,
Pippin





From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov  8 21:45:40 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:45:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ? for JKR
References: <8ucfb1+gu0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A09C984.AF76BB1F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5453

snuffles wrote:

> In the likely event that JKR does another publicisty round at some
> stage can I put up at potenital question about why Nichols Fannel and
> P (can't remember her name) died when the POhilosphers stone was
> destroyed?

It was Nicolas Flamel and his wife, Perronnelle (doubtful spelling on her
name). They died because they were 600+ years old, and the philosopher's
stone was what was prolonging their lives, and when it was destroyed, the
natural process took over. Which, incidentally, was one of the properties of
the philosopher's stone, alchemically--it didn't simply produce gold. The
production of gold from dross material was in large part an allegory for the
process of self-improvement and personal development and growth, the path of
seeking the stone.

--Amanda




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 22:05:44 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:05:44 -0000
Subject: ? for JKR
In-Reply-To: <3A09C984.AF76BB1F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ucino+3jlj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5454

yep, sorry I wan't clear - traditionally the philosphers stone only 
needs one application - so whether is is still in existance or not 
should not matter to the life span of a person who has been 
'administered' it.

I think?

storm

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> snuffles wrote:
> 
> > In the likely event that JKR does another publicisty round at some
> > stage can I put up at potenital question about why Nichols Fannel 
and
> > P (can't remember her name) died when the POhilosphers stone was
> > destroyed?
> 
> It was Nicolas Flamel and his wife, Perronnelle (doubtful spelling 
on her
> name). They died because they were 600+ years old, and the 
philosopher's
> stone was what was prolonging their lives, and when it was 
destroyed, the
> natural process took over. Which, incidentally, was one of the 
properties of
> the philosopher's stone, alchemically--it didn't simply produce 
gold. The
> production of gold from dross material was in large part an 
allegory for the
> process of self-improvement and personal development and growth, 
the path of
> seeking the stone.
> 
> --Amanda




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 21:58:41 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:58:41 +0000
Subject: Wizard politics
Message-ID: <3A09CC91.BCE954A2@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5455

Wed, 08 Nov 2000 09:43:10 -060  Penny Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
wrote:

>>Neil Ward wrote:

>> I have some related HP questions now.  Did we ever decide whether the
>> Ministry of Magic is part of the Muggle government, part of an
>> independent Wizard government or representative of the whole Wizard
>> government?

>For the Wizarding World -- Govt FAQ, I concluded that most of our
>members believe that the Ministry is independent of the Muggle govt.
>Rita in particular makes good points that surely the sensitive
>knowledge about the existence of the wizarding world would not be 
>left to changing whim of partisan politics.  The only scenario under >which I could imagine that the Ministry is a Cabinet position or >otherwise part of the Muggle govt is if the Minister of Magic puts a
> memory charm on those in the know when there's a shift in power.

No need. Knowledge of the existence of the wizarding world would
be covered by the Official Secrets Act.

Within the British government there is the Civil Service which is
constant within the changes of political parties in power. Anyone
who has seen the BBC TV series 'Yes, Minister' will have a good 
idea of the set up.

Therefore, something as important as the relationship between the muggle
and wizarding world would unlikely to be dealt with by the 'Cabinet',
Prime Minister etc.  The very sensitivity of the relationship would
suggest either a royal appointment or approval at this sort of 
symbolic level. After all the nature of the monarchy is one of a 
symbolic sacred marriage between the land and the sovereign and a 
number of monarchs have been themselves interested in exploring the
magical world including forays into alchemy.

Or perhaps an historical appointment say in the time of Elizabeth I
(reputed to be the child of a witch) which with the increasing
separation between the muggle and wizarding world during the 
seventeenth century was honoured as an historical precedent which 
has self perpetuated over time becoming autonomous but still holding 
the royal charter.

>For that FAQ, I also did as detailed an analysis of the various
>components of the Ministry as we can based on our knowledge at this
>point.  I also included Lori's vision of the organization of the Int'l
>Federation of Wizards.  That FAQ is actually done at this point, unless
>recent discussions bring up new theories or points that should get
>added in.  <g>

>> Is there a political element to the Ministry of Magic reflecting the
>> Muggle parties or is it some sort of cross-party coalition related or
>> unrelated to Muggle politics?

>This I'm not sure about, and I don't think it's been raised before.  I
>hadn't seen anything about this while doing the FAQ.  I'm not even sure
>how the Minister of Magic is elected/appointed/chosen.

We haven't really been given many clues but it does seem to bear
more resemblance to the various government ministries in this country
which are run by the civil service and nominally headed by the appointed

Ministers, who seem to be rotated on a fairly regular basis.

>> I say "possibility" because I get the impression that the wizarding
>> world is completely apolitical - more like a department of civil
>>servants - and that there is no concept of party politics.

>Hermione does note that the house elves are "shockingly
>underrepresented" on  .. . . something that escapes me (one of the
>Committees relating to Magical Creatures I think).  The use of the word

>"underrepresented" might indicate that there's some form of
>representative govt in the wizarding world, although we've not seen
>much evidence of this other than that as far as I know.  
> Interesting thought to contemplate.

Interesting to see how this is developed - there is obviously some form
of consensus that governs the wizarding world and in a sense maybe
we are discovering it with Harry.


Vivienne




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov  8 22:21:15 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:21:15 -0000
Subject: Hot off the Presses (Political but not OT)
Message-ID: <8ucjkr+pde1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5456

THE DAILY PROPHET

by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, D.P.'s Washington correspondent

SALEM, MA, Nov. 7 ? U.S. Minister of Magic Ralph Q. Hedge
continued to refuse what he called an "unprecedented" number
of requests to interfere with yesterday's muggle elections. 
Minister Hedge stated that "As every witch and wizard knows, we
have a strict policy of non-interference in muggle affairs.  It is 
only in the direst of life-and-death emergencies that we would ever 
even consider intervening in any way with such mundane matters as 
which muggle governs the nation.  I have received a tremendous number 
of owls today, and I know that many wizards, and particularly many 
witches, are distressed that the muggles seem to have chosen to take 
a particularly large step backwards in time, without even using a 
time-turner."   

Speaking from the new ministry headquarters located behind The 
Witches Brew, a popular pub in this traditional center of American 
magical activities, Minister Hedge added, "Nevertheless, while
the Bush victory is likely to result in an increase in the political 
power of the fundamentalist, right-wing, magic-hating segment of  
muggle society, there is no reason to believe that this will in any 
way facilitate the return of the Reign of Terror or of Lord 
Voldemort."

Dissenting voices include Muggle Affairs Directorate (MAD) Chairman 
Jack Weasley.  Weasley argued that "since [American] witches and 
wizards have to live here [in the U.S.] too, and will suffer unjustly 
from the divisive, bigoted, magic-hating nutcases who are likely to 
receive appointments in the new muggle government, there is ample 
reason for Ministry intervention.  A Bush victory will set back the 
cause of improving Muggle-Wizard relations and pave the way for the 
return of the Dark Side.  Now, today, is the time for the ministry to 
act.  The muggles are currently recounting the Florida vote; we could 
simply change a few thousand ballots and Gore would win the state.  
After all, he won the popular vote, so it's only fair.  Besides 
which, we would only be making up for the many thousands, if not 
millions, of muggle votes which were influenced by the illegal and 
immoral use of the Imperius Curse by a certain unnamed Wizarding 
Society."

Not everyone is dismayed by the results of the muggle election.  Jim-
Bob Malfoy, the Texas wizard oil baron and president of the Slytherin 
Society told reporters that "We are quite pleased by the muggle 
election results.  We in the Slytherin Society feel that George W. 
Bush is our kind of guy, and we look forward to the next four
years."


Note: This article is being distributed through the World Wizard Web, 
due to the current OUTRAGEOUS price of 35 galleons for owl delivery 
of the Daily Prophet.  The author urges readers to express their 
concern over the high price to D.P. marketing manager E. Eggplant, 
who must be feeding his owls caviar to justify this high price.




From john at walton.to  Wed Nov  8 22:40:15 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:40:15 +0000
Subject: Voting: Heidi's Aunt Betty
In-Reply-To: <200011080808.BAA87071@koop.temp.veriohosting.com>
Message-ID: <B62F10B4.7C5C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5457

Some more about Dubya from American Politics Journal (progressive 'net
journal -- really good, has had some *scary* stuff about our least favorite
letter of the alphabet)...

"He will arrive in the Oval Office as damaged goods.  More facts
about his seamy past will emerge in the coming months.  The Doc
suggests that you reacquaint yourself specifically with the
fundamentals of Funeralgate, Bush's demotion while in the National
Guard, and the methods used to conceal a certain drunk driving
arrest in the Seventies.

Add evidence of widespread voter fraud in Florida: Gore voters in
eastern parts of Florida were duped into voting for Buchanan, and
ballot boxes have been disappearing and reappearing in minority
areas more frequently than Bush's service record."

> Heidi said:
> So did my Aunt Betty's, but as I was told at 9 pm last night when all the
> networks were predicting that Gore took the state based on exit polls, she was
> confused by her ballot and is concerned that she may've voted for buchanan
> accidentally.

Hmm. Does your aunt live in eastern FL?

=====================================================

American Politics Journal Copyright (C) 2000 American Politics
Journal Publications, Inc

All rights reserved. ISSN No. 1523-1690

All materials contained herein are protected by United States
copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted,
displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of the authors and American Politics Journal
Publications, Inc. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.  This message
may not be reproduced in full or in part without the advance express
written consent of American Politics Journal Publications, Inc.

However, you may print this material (one machine-readable copy and
one print copy per page) for personal use.

www.american-politics.com

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Wed Nov  8 22:42:13 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:42:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT - update from florida, Attn. Heidi
References: <8ucbmp+gm6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005301c049d5$23c441a0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 5458

<Warning: utterly OT>

Heidi,

Didn't you say your aunt had trouble with the ballots somewhere--was this in
Palm Beach?  I just read a report that the ballots where misinterpreted,
giving Buchanon 3000+ votes, when other, more conservative areas averaged
600 or so. I saw a picture of the ballot, and it was *very* misleading. Is
it normal in the U.S., for individual counties to have their own ballots?
And such complicated ones??

(Yes, I'm American; but since I've never had a place of residence in the
U.S., I'm not allowed to vote, and hence don't understand the dynamics.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From Yaz at good.co.uk  Wed Nov  8 22:50:22 2000
From: Yaz at good.co.uk (Yaz)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:50:22 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03cc01c049d6$4781ece0$1a3663c3@merchantbtinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5459


>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)

If the winner is George W. Voldemort, does that mean that Dumblegore
narrowly lost out?

*grin*

Yaz :-)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov  8 22:50:02 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 16:50:02 -0600
Subject: Joywitch's Daily Prophet
Message-ID: <3A09D899.C81C6546@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5460

Hi -

Joywitch: I love it, I love it, I love it!!!!  I sent it to all my
friends who are HP-literate (but not HP-obsessed & on this listserve).
I demand more excerpts . . . .

You're going to give Eggplant a run for her money, especially with the
exorbitant rates she's charging for owl delivery.  35 galleons!  Crikey!

Penny





From john at walton.to  Wed Nov  8 22:58:48 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:58:48 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT - update from florida, Attn. Heidi
In-Reply-To: <005301c049d5$23c441a0$1500a8c0@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <B62F8B27.7CC3%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5461

Aberforths_Goat at Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com wrote:

> (Yes, I'm American; but since I've never had a place of residence in the
> U.S., I'm not allowed to vote, and hence don't understand the dynamics.)

Not to mention that you're a goat.

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov  8 23:21:47 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:21:47 -0000
Subject: Legos and Duplos
Message-ID: <009601c049da$acfaf540$9c977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5462

Hi All

>>The Lego-corporation did acquire merchandise-rights
>>for the HP-movie.

Just incase anyone wants full info on that... here is the press release.

-----
The LEGO Company Is Granted Global Harry Potter License

Alliance Announced with Warner Bros. Consumer Products for Worldwide
Marketing of Construction Toys Based on Harry Potter--


The LEGO Company, makers of the worlds best-selling construction toys,
today announced that it has entered into an exclusive agreement with Warner
Bros. Consumer Products to market Harry Potter construction toys worldwide.

The four-year agreement, which marks the third property licensed by the LEGO
Company, gives the company the right to produce and sell construction toys
based on the popular Harry Potter series that has cast a spell over children
everywhere.

The licensing agreement gives the LEGO Company exclusive rights to produce
construction toys based on the first two Harry Potter movies. Harry Potter
and the Sorcerers Stone, Warner Bros. Pictures adaptation of the first in
the best-selling series of Harry Potter books, to be directed by Chris
Columbus (Home Alone, Mrs. Doubtfire), will hit theaters throughout
North America in November 2001.

The first sets in the new LEGO line will allow kids ages six to 12 to bring
to life the Harry Potter storyline and its characters. The 2001 toy line,
which will include nine sets based on the Harry Potter and the Sorcerers
Stone movie, is slated to be on store shelves prior to the films release.

Were delighted to have the opportunity to partner with Warner Bros.
Consumer Products, said Kjeld Kirk Kristiansen, President and CEO of the
LEGO Company. "The fantasy world of Harry Potter mirrors the values of our
products and is a natural expansion of our imaginative worlds. In the Harry
Potter universe, everything is possible, and you never know what is going to
happen next. This is exactly what happens when kids play with LEGO products;
the only limit is their imagination, Kristiansen continued.

Harry Potter has captured the imagination of kids of all ages, and we are
committed to bringing Harry and his magical world to life through creative
products that will be an extension of the books and the upcoming film, said
Dan Romanelli, President, Warner Bros. Worldwide Consumer Products. The
imagination of childhood is often brought to life with LEGO products, and we
are confident that the magic of Harry Potter will sparkle with the
creativity of this industry leader.

J.K. Rowlings Harry Potter book series has been published in 115 countries
and in 28 languages with more than 30 million books in circulation
worldwide  over 18.4 million in the U.S. alone. The three Harry Potter
books have rocketed up and stayed on top of national best-seller lists. The
fourth book in a planned series of seven, Harry Potter and the Goblet of
Fire, was released Saturday, July 8.

Warner Bros. Worldwide Consumer Products gained licensing and merchandising
rights for the Harry Potter series as part of an overall deal when Warner
Bros. Pictures signed with author J.K. Rowling. The deal includes
development of two films based on the first two books in the series.

###


LEGO Systems, Inc. (LSI) is the Americas (North America and Latin America)
division of the LEGO Company, a privately-held firm based in Billund,
Denmark. The LEGO Company employs more than 2,000 people in the Americas 
approximately one half of whom work at LSIs 203-acre headquarters in
Enfield, Connecticut. LSI manufactures more than 2.7 billion LEGO elements
each year. The LEGO Company is committed to the development of children's
creative and imaginative abilities, and its employees are guided by the
motto adopted in the 1930s by founder Ole Kirk Christiansen: "Only the best
is good enough."

Warner Bros. Consumer Products, a division of Warner Bros., a Time Warner
Entertainment Company, L.P., is one of the leading and most diversified
licensing and retail merchandising organizations, which includes a vast
library of intellectual properties and the Warner Bros. Studio Stores,
including wbstore.com, an e-commerce Web site. With over 3,700 licensees,
Warner Bros. Consumer Products licenses the rights to names, likenesses and
logos for a variety of entertainment properties, categories, and Warner
Bros. icons that include Looney Tunes, Batman, Superman, Scooby-Doo, The
Wizard of Oz, Friends, ER, and its newest member, Harry Potter.


MEDIA CONTACTS:
LEGO Company
Katherine Lee
Tel: 860-763-6732
Pgr: 888-534-6561
Shannon Hartnett
Tel: 860-763-6758
Pgr: 888-534-6561
WB Consumer Products
Barry Ziehl
Tel: 818-954-6804
July 11, 2000

-----


Looks like it will be a while before we see the products though... I expect
Summer of 2001.

>You can all come visit me; I live 20 minutes south of Carlsbad, California,
>home to Legoland.

I thought Legoland (the real one) was in Denmark.
I live about 20 minutes south of Windsor, Berkshire, UK where Legoland UK
is.
I've been there once... about 2 years ago.


Nick
(the one with a large Lego collection in his loft)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  8 23:32:52 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:32:52 -0000
Subject: Hot off the Presses (Political but not OT)
In-Reply-To: <8ucjkr+pde1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ucnr4+ev5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5463

Hi Joywitch and all:

*Please* post this to ff.net ASAP!  This was too funny... although 
I'm sure G.O.P. Harry Potter fans would probably say that wizarding 
society is perhaps very conservative.  :)  Though the prevailing 
weirdness of this year's Super Tuesday does make a case for wizard 
interference.  I'm surprised there wasn't a full moon!

Just got home for the first time in weeks before 8 p.m.--the pavement 
pounding and door-knocking is done up here.  Our thoughts and prayers 
are all with Heidi and the other millions of Floridians under the 
microscope right now.  I've been on the Tallahassee phone lines and 
online every second I could spare... because I *knew* that if the 
1998 FL gubernatorial election had been taken more seriously by all 
voters statewide, this weird Super Wednesday would not have occurred.

Not much of my lesson plan got done today, I'm afraid--wait a minute, 
I take that back.  This brought history to life, as I'm sure a 
million teachers nationwide explained to almost one hundred million 
children *how* someone could win the popular vote and perhaps lose 
the election.

I also have to say that I *loved* Aberforth's Goat's (Mike Gray) post-
Hogwarts election scenario.  I think that an adult Hermione and 
Hillary Rodham Clinton would get along very well.  :)

Rita, happy belated birthday and many more!  Also a second round of 
heartfelt congrats to Penny--isn't it cool to know whether or not 
you're having a boy or a girl?  This way, shopping and naming are 
much easier.  Let us know when your shower will be--as hard as you 
work around here, I'm sure the group would love to do something nice 
for you.

Well, that's enough of politics for now.  Next post--Chapter 18 
summary and Ollivander character sketch.

--Ebony

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> THE DAILY PROPHET
> 
> by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, D.P.'s Washington correspondent
> 
> SALEM, MA, Nov. 7 ? U.S. Minister of Magic Ralph Q. Hedge
> continued to refuse what he called an "unprecedented" number
> of requests to interfere with yesterday's muggle elections. 
> Minister Hedge stated that "As every witch and wizard knows, we
> have a strict policy of non-interference in muggle affairs.  It is 
> only in the direst of life-and-death emergencies that we would ever 
> even consider intervening in any way with such mundane matters as 
> which muggle governs the nation.  I have received a tremendous 
number 
> of owls today, and I know that many wizards, and particularly many 
> witches, are distressed that the muggles seem to have chosen to 
take 
> a particularly large step backwards in time, without even using a 
> time-turner."   
> 
> Speaking from the new ministry headquarters located behind The 
> Witches Brew, a popular pub in this traditional center of American 
> magical activities, Minister Hedge added, "Nevertheless, while
> the Bush victory is likely to result in an increase in the 
political 
> power of the fundamentalist, right-wing, magic-hating segment of  
> muggle society, there is no reason to believe that this will in any 
> way facilitate the return of the Reign of Terror or of Lord 
> Voldemort."
> 
> Dissenting voices include Muggle Affairs Directorate (MAD) Chairman 
> Jack Weasley.  Weasley argued that "since [American] witches and 
> wizards have to live here [in the U.S.] too, and will suffer 
unjustly 
> from the divisive, bigoted, magic-hating nutcases who are likely to 
> receive appointments in the new muggle government, there is ample 
> reason for Ministry intervention.  A Bush victory will set back the 
> cause of improving Muggle-Wizard relations and pave the way for the 
> return of the Dark Side.  Now, today, is the time for the ministry 
to 
> act.  The muggles are currently recounting the Florida vote; we 
could 
> simply change a few thousand ballots and Gore would win the state.  
> After all, he won the popular vote, so it's only fair.  Besides 
> which, we would only be making up for the many thousands, if not 
> millions, of muggle votes which were influenced by the illegal and 
> immoral use of the Imperius Curse by a certain unnamed Wizarding 
> Society."
> 
> Not everyone is dismayed by the results of the muggle election.  
Jim-
> Bob Malfoy, the Texas wizard oil baron and president of the 
Slytherin 
> Society told reporters that "We are quite pleased by the muggle 
> election results.  We in the Slytherin Society feel that George W. 
> Bush is our kind of guy, and we look forward to the next four
> years."
> 
> 
> Note: This article is being distributed through the World Wizard 
Web, 
> due to the current OUTRAGEOUS price of 35 galleons for owl delivery 
> of the Daily Prophet.  The author urges readers to express their 
> concern over the high price to D.P. marketing manager E. Eggplant, 
> who must be feeding his owls caviar to justify this high price.




From john at walton.to  Wed Nov  8 23:36:34 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:36:34 +0000
Subject: Merchandise/Shipping to the UK
In-Reply-To: <8ubrbs+gill@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B62F9362.7CD3%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5464

Laurie at larrick at yazaki-na.com wrote:

> -> 
>> Have just chatted to IQVC customer services... they are unable to
> send to
>> locations outside of the United States.
>> They would not say why that is... it's the just the way it is.
>> 
>> So... anyone fancy being a frieght forwarder?   I need to have a US
> mailing
>> address to get any goods.
>> 
>> Nick (in England)
>> 
>> PS.  QVC UK does not have any Harry Potter items.
> 
> 
> I'm willing to have them shipped to me (I even promise to forward the
> less expensive items on to you - j/k). Seriously, I would be happy to
> serve as your US link. Just email me directly at larrick at yazaki-
> na.com.

Alternatively, so you don't have to pay for shipping, I'm more than willing
for UK folks to have stuff shipped to my US address, which I can then carry
back in my suitcase on the 2nd of December.

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From john at walton.to  Wed Nov  8 23:30:39 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:30:39 +0000
Subject: More From the Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <8ucjkr+pde1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B62F929F.7CD2%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5465

THE DAILY PROPHET

by our Special Correspondent in New York, a small furry-nosed wombat named
Bruce.

Dateline: New York

As already reported by our Washington Correspondent, the results of the
Muggle Election have been, like the air in a subway car in rush hour in
summer, exceedingly close. As usual, preparations for the elections to the
Magical Council of Representatives were concealed in the build-up to the
Muggle Election. Our top hack, Jerry Mander, reports that nowhere was the
election so closely fought as here in New York.

The battle here, between Truth And Consequences, NM-born Titania Klinger
(Pro-Muggle) and Babylon Heights, LI-born Rikki-tikki Lasagne, was
particularly tough. Lucretia Scarpino, Chairwitch of the New York branch of
the Wizarding Department, believed "New Yorkers don't really care about
where a candidate comes from. Representative-elect Klinger showed that she
knows about issues affecting New Yorkers, including Prescription Potion
charges, education and employment for the magically-challenged and Muggle
censorship of magical texts after the repeated recent leaking of classical
wizarding novels to a Muggle publishing house. Mr Lasagne, we believe,
turned off independent and liberal voters with his flagrant and frequent
displays of chest hair."

Ms Klinger was supported by her husband Bubba and daughter Tribeca at her
victory speech last night. "Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you," she said.
Mr Lasagne's supporters were less gracious during his concession speech.
"I spoke with Titania Klinger--"
"BOOOOOOO!"
"No, please. I spoke with her and congratulated her on her victory--"
"BOOOOOOO!"

Ms Klinger's campaign spokeswizard, standing in front of a large glittering
pink banner saying only "TITANIA", enthused "We're thrilled for New York and
Representative Klinger, and we just know she'll do a fantastic job."

Pollsters now believe Mr Lasagne's political career to be verklemt. Oy vey
indeed.

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Nov  8 23:42:18 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:42:18 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida A WHOLE BOX?
In-Reply-To: <015401c049b0$3bf11160$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ucocq+9kam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5466

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
 "This isn't even including the mess with Buchanan/Gore votes in Palm
(something) County with the senior citizens who thought they had 
voted their minds, and were wrong."

Not only seniors but 1st time voters too. I heard on NPR (National 
Public Radio in the US) an interview with a young woman voting for 
the 1st time realized her mistake, asked the poll worker if she did 
indeed cast a vote for Buchannon instead of Gore, was told "yes" and 
when she requested (as is her right!) a new ballot, was told NO and 
had the ballot physically removed from her hand and placed in the 
ballot box!!! If this had been me I would pitched a fit so large and 
loud that the entire country would have heard me!  

Trina who is working on 4 hours sleep and outraged sensibilities.





From Joy_Wotton at msn.com  Wed Nov  8 22:41:13 2000
From: Joy_Wotton at msn.com (Joy Wotton)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:41:13 -0000
Subject: Star Wars connection 
Message-ID: <020901c049dd$bd176140$0397bc3e@joy>

No: HPFGUIDX 5467

>> It is a Luke Skywalker thing the force is strong!!!! and he must die!!!
And Voldemort is The Emperor, and Dumbledore is Obi  Wan Kenobi, Ron is Han
Solo, Hermoine is Leia, Snape is Darth Maul...... I think JKR likes Star
Wars

Hagrid is Chewbacca ...

But I can't quite see any of the Malfoys or Scabbers as Darth Vader.

Joy






From john at walton.to  Wed Nov  8 23:48:08 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 23:48:08 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
In-Reply-To: <00f901c049ae$161843c0$806a5ecf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B62F9697.7CD6%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5468

lrcjestes at lrcjestes at msn.com wrote:

>> [Warning:  Duplos HURT when you step on them, and they tend to wander from
>> the room where they are played with to strange, undiscovered corners of the
>> other rooms.  Hence the hiding!]
>> 
> Yes!!! I swear there is a duplo block at all times in all rooms of my house,
> no matter how many times I put them away and in the basement...they creep out
> of their hiding places and lurk to jump out under your foot when you are
> carrying a basket of laundry!

My mother recounts the time that I left a handful of Lego in trouser pockets
when I was little. She was picking tiny melted pieces of plastic out of
various undergarments for weeks on end :p

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  9 16:04:53 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 11:04:53 EST
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
Message-ID: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5469

Quick note: there's speculation in the last paragraph.

>It's easy and tempting and reassuring when things seem safe, to look back 
>and say, "Oh, I saw it, or I should have known.  Peter Pettigrew, always 
>tagging along, such a sneak--of course he wasn't really one of us."
>
>But he was.  THAT'S why it is so scary.

Scary, yes, but that's not what I find the scariest.  Here, you have four 
friends, two of them very close, two less so.  Then you have information 
suggesting that one of them is a traitor.  What I find scary is that, rather 
than dismiss the information, you pick one of your friends to blame.  That's 
the atmosphere they were living in.  James and Sirius couldn't blame each 
other - they were best friends.  They didn't think highly enough of 
Pettigrew to suspect him.  So they suspected the werewolf (sweet, good 
natured, totally wonderful Lupin!).  The Harry equivalent would be "I can't 
suspect Ron, so it must be Hermione..." (or vice versa).

This really highlights one of the major differences between Harry's friends 
and James' (not to mention Harry and James).  The Maruaders lived in a world 
where people were going Dark Side all the time.  Friendships where not set 
in the same kind of stone and very few people were beyond reproach.  When he 
realised that Sirius and James had made the switch without telling him, 
Lupin wasn't even surprised - it were as if he expected to be suspected.  
This begs the question will Harry's friendships survive the same kind of 
strain?

On the other hand, the Marauders do seem to have had a few issues that 
Harry's lot don't.  Sirius had a pretty sick sense of humour - that Snape 
joke was bloody dangerous.  Lupin has a very impressive guilt complex - in 
the Shreiking Shack, he even blames himself for being bitten as a child.  
Then, of course, you have Peter, who is basically a worm, and James, who, so 
far, seems to be the lone, balanced wonder-boy.  Was their mistrust as much 
a product of themselves as their times?

Of course, they were right to suspect someone.  They just got the wrong guy. 
  If they had been united in trust, rather that divided in mistrust, might 
they have been able to spot Pettigrew's strange behaviour?  Might they have 
correctly picked the spy?

Quick sideline: I know you've already discussed this, but could someone 
please tell me why you're all so convinced these people were Gryffindors?

Now, I do believe in the Pettigrew/Neville parallel.  All of those times, in 
class, when Harry and Ron were paired up, who do you think Hermione was 
with?  It doesn't matter if Neville isn't looking for protection from 
Harry's lot - the Marauders didn't see this in Pettigrew until he showed 
himself as a traitor.  However, this doesn't really mean that Neville is 
like Pettigrew, but rather, that he fills the same position for Harry that 
Pettigrew did for James.  Neville and Pettigrew are both small, overlooked 
wizards - people the Potters might like, but not respect as much as they do 
others.

So, you see Harry following he father's doomed path.  How will he escape the 
same sorry end?  I would hope that Harry can keep trusting his friends.  I 
don't think Ron would ever go bad - he sacrificed himself the the 
Philosophers Stone chess game, his first instinct in the Prisoner of 
Azkaban, when the Grim was charging Harry, was to push Harry aside, then, 
later, he told Sirius that if he wanted to kill Harry he'd have to kill him 
first.  He was sorted into Gryffindor in seconds.  Lets face it - this kid 
IS the Gryffindor dragon.  Hermione values courage and friendship very 
highly (she says so, somewhere in PS) and is Muggle-born and proud of it.  I 
expect that Harry's discovery of Neville's past might signal a turning point 
in Harry's attitude to Neville - he might start looking at him as more of an 
equal.  Perhaps one of the differences between Harry and James, ie. the 
reason Harry can defeat Voldemort, is that Harry's friends trust each other 
and Harry knows enough to respect Neville.

Oh, by the way, I'm new.  Hey everybody!
Gwen.
(who once got sick on election day, literally slept through the whole thing 
and, being Australian, was fined for the privillage!)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov  9 00:10:12 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 19:10:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew parallels
References: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A09EB64.FF18AF86@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5470



"Brandgwen G." wrote:

> Quick sideline: I know you've already discussed this, but could someone
> please tell me why you're all so convinced these people were Gryffindors?
>

It's a recent thing, at least for me. The reason at least some of us think this
way is because in live online chats about 3 weeks ago, JKR said that Lily was a
Gryffindor, "of course", and that Hagrid was also a Gryffindor, which suggests
that the main character good guys were all Gryffindors, and "of course" we'd be
silly to think otherwise




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov  9 00:17:44 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 00:17:44 -0000
Subject: Joywitch's Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <3A09D899.C81C6546@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8ucqf8+lu75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5471

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> Joywitch: I love it, I love it, I love it!!!!  I sent it to all my
> friends who are HP-literate (but not HP-obsessed & on this 
listserve).
> I demand more excerpts . . . .
> 
> You're going to give Eggplant a run for her money, especially with 
the
> exorbitant rates she's charging for owl delivery.  35 galleons!  
Crikey!
> 
> Penny

I am really glad you liked the efforts of my new career as a 
journalist, and I will try to post more articles soon.  After all, 
the rest of my life is secondary to Harry Potter.

-- Joywitch




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Nov  9 00:06:01 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:06:01 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP at Marshall Field's!
Message-ID: <id.08112000200601.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 5472

<<> OK... so what are Frangos?
>
> Nick.
> (The Brit who does not know what a Frango is)

Don't be feeling bad; I'm a Texan (native, that is) and have no idea either. Some Yankee thing, probably.>>

Beats the heck outta me - and I'm a Yank, I suppose.

voicelady



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 02:05:00 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:05:00 -0600
Subject: Fw: Wow [Yahoo! Clubs: Harry Potter for Grown Ups]
Message-ID: <003f01c049f1$7e055ac0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5473

This is from the yahoo-side.

I had to stop, step back, and think.  I do admit that not only am I addicted
to HP, I am also addicted to the internet as well.  I literally go nuts when
the cable company has to shut down due to something.

I'm just taking a moment of silence....

(and then I'll be back to normal!)

----- Original Message -----
From: "maxine450" <clubs-mail at yahoo-inc.com>
To: <generic_gypsy at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: Wow [Yahoo! Clubs: Harry Potter for Grown Ups]


> I cant believe you guys still post stuff about Harry Potter, I mean,
there's basically NOTHING to talk about....GoF has been talked about a long
time ago, yet you still talk about it....maybe you guys should take a break
from Harry Potter!
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE BY EMAIL!
> ---------------------------------------------
> You have chosen to receive messages from "Harry Potter for Grown Ups" by
email.
>
> Reply to this message:
>
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/harrypotterforgrownups/bbsfrp?action=r&tid=harr
ypotterforgrownups&sid=21870477&mid=7884
>
> Unsubscribe from the Club mailing list:
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/harrypotterforgrownups/config/change_mb_list
>
> Return to "Harry Potter for Grown Ups":
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/harrypotterforgrownups
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> Not a member? Remove yourself from this list:
>
http://edit.clubs.yahoo.com/config/unsubscribe_mb_list?.userID=generic_gypsy
&.groupID=harrypotterforgrownups&.groupType=&.code=gTs07Fbvth
>




From zsenya at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 01:13:20 2000
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 01:13:20 -0000
Subject: Ron in Shining Armor (was Re: Pettigrew parallels)
In-Reply-To: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8uctng+u64c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5474

Hi Gwen! I'm new too.

I like your comparison of the two generations. I agree that you can't 
really draw exact parallels and that they are dealing with different 
issues that change the way they interact with others.  I tend to look 
at Harry, Hermione and Ron as possibly much more mature in many ways 
than their parent's generation was at their age.  I know that I was 
always impressed (and I know this is a broad generalization) at how 
much more aware and responsible my youngest sister and her friends 
were (there is a 7 year gap) than I had been at her age.  I remember 
them traipsing through the woods near our house at age 8 cleaning up 
cans and trash and me thinking "At age 8 I was playing house in the 
backyard and other silly things"  So in many ways I see our trio much 
better adapted to deal with strains on their friendship and I also 
believe (as you point out) that Ron has done MORE than enough to show 
that he is a good and faithful friend to Harry.

I have to admit, after I went back and started reading the archives 
and past posts, I was soooo distressed that so many people seem to be 
convinced that Ron will roam over to the other side.  I have to keep 
telling myself "It's only a book, it's only a book" because I just see 
Ron as the most loyal friend out there.  I hope I am right.  The only 
time he wavers is in GoF and that is just a childish spat.  I think in 
that instance he was more ticked off that Harry didn't include him in 
what he perceived as some elaborate scheme to get his name in the 
goblet, than anything else.

As to why we are convinced that all of the Marauders were in 
Gryffindor... I will have to go back and read the archive to see what 
others think.  I personally always just sort of assumed that was the 
case because everything that we learn happens from a Gryffindor point 
of view and because of that, by default, I think of Gryffindor as the 
coolest house.  Also, I assume a) that since Gryffindors are supposed 
to be brave, James Potter must have been one and b) James would most 
likely be close friends with other Gryffindors.  This is how things 
operate in my world!

:)Zsenya




From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 01:29:38 2000
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (Michelle )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 01:29:38 -0000
Subject: OT - update from florida
In-Reply-To: <8uc15t+4m5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5475

I hope this gets through, I've tried before.  I've been reading these 
posts for about a month. I don't mean to be a lurker!  I am a Palm 
Beach County, FL voter and those ballots WERE confusing!  I had to 
look at it closely before I punched in my vote for Gore.  I'm not 
surprised so many senior citizens had problems.  Anyway, if this gets 
through I would like to say hello to everyone, hopefully I will get to 
interact with you now.  Obviously, I love the Harry Potter series and 
I hope the Bush administration doesn't try to ban these books in the 
schools.  Thanks for your time.                                       
                                            Michelle                  
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                                                      
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Just letting all of you know where the election results stand (or, 
> rather, wobble).
> 
> The recount of votes may not be completed until the end of business 
> on Thursday - also, ballots cast by Florida registered voters living 
> overseas who were required to have their ballots postmarked by 
> Tuesday might take up to *ten days* to arrive and to be added to the 
> vote count, officials have said. Bush led by fewer than 1,800 votes 
> in the election night count. No idea how many of such ballots are 
> expected, but in 1996, 2,300 were received, which is more than 
Bush's 
> current margin of victory.
> ALSO, they said on teh radio this morning that a WHOLE BOX of 
ballots 
> was "accidentally" left behind in a polling station in Northwest 
> Miami Dade County - just so you know, the split in Miami Dade (my 
> county) was 53% gore, 46% Bush, so depending on how many ballots 
were 
> in there...well, you can guess!
> 
> Trying to find a way to keep this ontopic - In the wizarding world, 
> there would be no "absentee ballots" because the voting would all be 
> done by owl, much in the same way that oregon has voting by mail.
> Discuss.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov  9 01:46:15 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:46:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com> <03cc01c049d6$4781ece0$1a3663c3@merchantbtinternet.com>
Message-ID: <3A0A01E7.7614633B@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5476


Just to complicate things, Florida law specifies that voters mark the space
to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for.
The space on the Palm Beach County ballot to mark for Buchanan was on the
*left* (and directly to the right of the Gore/Leiberman bit).  Jeff Liggio,
a lawyer for county Democrats, called the ballot illegal. "Right means
right, doesn't it? The state law says right, it doesn't mean left," he said.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Florida voters *knew* the law said "right" and
voted that way because of it. I'm saying that the ballot design may actually
have been illegal under Florida law. You can see the ballot at
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html

3 people filed a lawsuit today, accusing the county of creating an illegal
ballot.

And if you want to read something  less funny than the Daily Prophet & WWW
posts to this list, but nonetheless hillareous, go to
http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0011/call/

So what happens now?

Yaz wrote:

> >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
>
> If the winner is George W. Voldemort, does that mean that Dumblegore
> narrowly lost out?

VERY funny!




From JandLComm at aol.com  Thu Nov  9 02:27:49 2000
From: JandLComm at aol.com (JandLComm at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 02:27:49 -0000
Subject: Star Wars connection
In-Reply-To: <020901c049dd$bd176140$0397bc3e@joy>
Message-ID: <8ud235+le29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5477

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joy Wotton" <Joy_Wotton at m...> 
wrote:
> >> It is a Luke Skywalker thing the force is strong!!!! and he must 
die!!!
> And Voldemort is The Emperor, and Dumbledore is Obi  Wan Kenobi, 
Ron is Han
> Solo, Hermoine is Leia, Snape is Darth Maul...... I think JKR likes 
Star
> Wars
> 
> Hagrid is Chewbacca ...
> 
> But I can't quite see any of the Malfoys or Scabbers as Darth Vader.
> 
> Joy


All of these characters are archetypal mythological figures; maybe 
JKR likes Joseph Campbell! :-)

Linda




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 02:29:58 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:29:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: URL help and Peeves
References: <011c01c0497b$8265f960$fa987ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A0A0C26.AC8FFFDA@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5478


Nick Mitchell wrote:

> >I don't know why people are having problems uploading files.  I just
> >click on "upload file", use the "browse" button to find the file on
> >my PC, highlight the file name, click on the "open" button, fill in
> >the Description box (optional), then click on the "Upload File"
> >button.  That's all there is to it.

I have the correct browser.  And I am following the correct routine.  Sometimes
I can upload files, and sometimes it says "Oops, you made a mistake."  Trust me,
I'm doing it right, with no spaces in the file names.

I blame Peeves the Poltergeist.

Hmm.  You know, now that I think about it, I cannot remember seeing more than a
couple of messages on this list EVER about Peeves, which seems strange since we
tend to discuss everything exhaustively.  And yet, when you think about it, he
does appear in an awful lot of scenes.

What function does he serve in the story?  The Greek chorus?

And hey, maybe Florida is Peeves' fault, too!  He'd love to throw an election
into confusion, right?  I bet he would be delighted to hide a ballot box and
confuse people into punching the wrong place on their punch cards!  (We
Americans have a conspiracy theory for everything, but you have to admit this
one is rather original).

Throwing it out, to see if anyone will bite.

Peg






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 02:35:51 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:35:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duplos
References: <3A09809B.A06D4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A0D87.A3AD811D@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5479

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> > Tip: when the baby is between 18-36 months old, a big, big pile of duplos
> > at Mom's feet on the office floor is one of the best tricks in your arsenal to
> > give you writing time.
> >
> Okay, I've pondered & pondered . . . and looked it up in the dictionary
> .. . . what are "duplos"???  <g>
>
> Penny

I see from the succession of messages following this one called "Duplos" that many
people have already answered this question.  I'll only add (and please don't take it
as condescending because it isn't meant to be, just warmly humorous), "Ah, Penny,
you have SO much to look forward to and to learn about being a parent."

Hoping you enjoy it as much as I do.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 02:46:10 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:46:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More clippings from The Daily Prophet
References: <8uc4f0+jb0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0A0FF2.F8E45F77@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5480

Seriously, there is a website Daily Prophet, and I know they were
looking for writers earlier.  Eggplant, did/do you know about it?  Do
you write for them?  If you sent them one of your samples, they might
snabble you right up, if you want a creative journalistic opportunity.

www.dprophet.com

(I just checked that site; they are asking for funds to keep going, so I
don't know how stable/viable it is, but I was visiting it pretty
regularly for a while there, before I found this group, and I found it
to be pretty good.  And I do think they would be interested in the kind
of stuff you write.)

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> > This is great!  How does one subscribe?
>
> A one year subscription to THE DAILY PROPHET is easy to obtain, just
> write your name on piece of parchment and instruct your owl to send
> it and 35 galleons to the subscription department of the DAILY
> PROPHET CORPORATION. If you live in the southern hemisphere and want
> your paper delivered by first class owl to ensure same day delivery
> it's 45 galleons. It's surprised I have to explain these things to
> you
>
> ..
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 03:02:45 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:02:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Joywitch's Daily Prophet
References: <3A09D899.C81C6546@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A13D5.8CDF6426@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5481

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> You're going to give Eggplant a run for her money, especially with the
> exorbitant rates she's charging for owl delivery.  35 galleons!  Crikey!

Eggplant is a *her*? Hmmmm.

--Amanda




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 02:59:34 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:59:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Joywitch's Daily Prophet
References: <3A09D899.C81C6546@swbell.net> <3A0A13D5.8CDF6426@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A1316.913A290C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5482

Hi --

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>
> > You're going to give Eggplant a run for her money, especially with
> the
> > exorbitant rates she's charging for owl delivery.  35 galleons!
> Crikey!
>
> Eggplant is a *her*? Hmmmm.

I honestly don't know.  Perhaps Eggplant will enlighten us as to his/her
gender (now that Joywitch has referred to Eggplant with the male pronoun
& I've used the female pronoun).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 03:12:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:12:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT - update from florida
References: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0A1613.B986D7C1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5483

Michelle wrote:

> I hope the Bush administration doesn't try to ban these books in the
> schools.  Thanks for your time.

Unquestionably, there are loons supporting either side, and the book-banners
probably supported Bush (if not Buchanan, who's truly out there), but I live
in Texas, put some time into looking at Bush, and this is *not* the sort of
thing he does. Calm down. All Republicans are not the "religious right." And
not all religious people are nuts--judging from the ones in a couple of
church libraries who have slavered thanks on me for donating Potter books,
since they were getting so many requests.

I can see disagreeing on issues, but why does everyone seem to think Bush is
evil incarnate? And even if he were, do you all think everyone in Washington
will just say "how high" when he says "jump"? The president isn't
omnipowerful.

--Amanda




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 04:10:43 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 04:10:43 -0000
Subject: Suggestion for a group quote
In-Reply-To: <3A098B02.9549BFFA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ud843+4022@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5484


> Whenever you figure out what you want, I'll give you the URL for 
the site
> that does free Latin translations.
> 
Oh does that mean that ourquote will be in Latin?? I like it.  
Here are some more Ideas...(and I'll go ahead and give an apology for 
my translations..they were quite hurried and smathered w/ mistakes, 
can someone help me out?)

Harry Potter- puer quis spireit

To Harry Potter- the boy who lived.

Hoc ago non sanus ago habitere in dormito oblivious spirere.

It does not do well to dwell on dreams and forget to live.

What do you think?  And yes you can yell at me for my (most likely) 
horrid translations.

Scott (who did this w/ my trusty "Oxford Pocket Latin Dictionary"  
while listening to the media re-hash the same election facts over and 
over and over...)


PS:> > > "There are some things you just can't go through together 
without
> > > ending up friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll 
is one
> > > of them."

I like this one too....





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 04:23:04 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:23:04 -0600
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
Message-ID: <3A0A26A8.52CEB57F@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5485

You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

Next picture:
Dark, but I'm including it anyway.  Snape is gesturing to the sky, where
Harry is hanging from his broom by one knee during the Quidditch game
against Slytherin.  Hermione is pointing her wand at Snape (tip glows
blue).  You can see Quirrel's outstretched hand to the left.

Next picture:
Harry grabbing the Snitch midair, overhead. (Not a good angle, sorry)

Next picture:
Opposing Slytherin Quidditch player, overhead.  I suspect it is either
Marcus Flint, the opposing Captain, who figures most prominantly during
this game (Harry suspected he was part troll) or Terrence Higgs, the
Slytherin Seeker.

Now the Files Upload feature is refusing to take anymore files from me.
Gad, this thing is whimsical.  That's it for now--I'm turning in for the
night.

Peg





From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 04:23:48 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:23:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com> <03cc01c049d6$4781ece0$1a3663c3@merchantbtinternet.com> <3A0A01E7.7614633B@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3A0A26D3.7A42D831@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5486

heidi wrote:

> Just to complicate things, Florida law specifies that voters mark the space
> to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for.

But didn't the head election official (title escapes me) approve the ballot?
Surely she knows this law? That's weird.

> Now, I'm not suggesting that Florida voters *knew* the law said "right" and
> voted that way because of it. I'm saying that the ballot design may actually
> have been illegal under Florida law. You can see the ballot at
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html

Well, it doesn't look that confusing to me, but maybe they could have made the
arrows bigger or something. Why didn't anyone say anything to the election
judges at the polling place? Or say anything during the election, instead of
after? Or did they, and we're not hearing about it?

> So what happens now?

Good question. I don't think you can let some of the population recast their
votes, without letting everyone. Urgh.

--Amanda




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 04:27:22 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:27:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion for a group quote
References: <8ud843+4022@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0A27A9.E8FF124@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5487

I think my favorite quotation from the series so far is said by Dumbledore
in CoS:

It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.

Not humerous, but I think it gets right to the heart of the series.

I'll give some thought to which humerous ones we could use.
Peg




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 04:26:34 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:26:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion for a group quote
References: <8ud843+4022@eGroups.com> <3A0A27A9.E8FF124@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A2779.363B966@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5488

Peg Kerr wrote:

> I think my favorite quotation from the series so far is said by Dumbledore
> in CoS:
>
> It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.
>
> Not humerous,

Well, that would sort of depend on the choices, eh?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 04:38:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 22:38:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
References: <3A0A26A8.52CEB57F@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A2A49.2F4D1598@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5489

Peg Kerr wrote:

> You can see the folder of pictures

I finally got a chance to check them out. Way cool! Where was this again?
And how big are these figures?

My only complaint is the design of the House shields. Argh. Clearly designed
by someone who has seen lots of modern sports logos, and very little old
heraldry. Ugh.

Thanks, Peg!

--Amanda




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 04:40:22 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 04:40:22 -0000
Subject: (OT) George "Dubya" Voldemort -vs.- Al DumbleGore and Harry  for President...
Message-ID: <8ud9rm+7tmk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5490

Ok, I know somebody else mentioned this title but- I had thought of 
it before I saw that and I HAD to use it....

I live in the south and our state was  solidly carried by, yeah, you 
guessed it, George "Dubya".  It looks in fact as if he will be 
President, but I am still holding out hope.  The truth is that this 
has been pretty much all everyone at my high school has talked about 
today.  A suprise as the younger generation seems to be generally 
dissinterested in politics...well what will be will be ...and we will 
just have to meet it when it does.  (Paraphrased last sentence of 
GoF.)

I would actually like to see Harry run for President (err, yes I KNOW 
he's not real but-).  After all couldn't they make him an honourary 
citizen or bend the rules or something??  (since a President must be 
American Born.) 

Also I just heard that the box in Heidi's county was nothing but 
crayons...(sigh)

Also a thought about Wizard Politics...I know it probably isn't the 
most likely but couldn't it be possible that the MoM is a ministry 
(dept.) of an international Wizard Government (similar to the UN, in 
a way...) and that the Warlocks are the governing body (like 
Parliament or Congress).  Each country's Ministry is a segment of 
that one gov.'t....Does that make sense at all???

Probably not!

Scott 




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 04:44:51 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 04:44:51 -0000
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
In-Reply-To: <3A0A2A49.2F4D1598@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8uda43+7ueu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5491


> 
> My only complaint is the design of the House shields. Argh. Clearly 
designed
> by someone who has seen lots of modern sports logos, and very 
little old
> heraldry. Ugh.
> 
> Thanks, Peg!
> 
> --Amanda

I thought this too Amanda!  But maybe they will do a better job w/ 
the shields for the movie (doubt it though, I'm being quite critical 
tonight.)

Scott




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 05:40:45 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:40:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Suggestion for a group quote
References: <8ud843+4022@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01c04a0f$9c0c71c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5492

Scott, I like this one:  \/  It sounds like something I need to remember!
LOL
> Hoc ago non sanus ago habitere in dormito oblivious spirere.
>
> It does not do well to dwell on dreams and forget to live.
>
> What do you think?  And yes you can yell at me for my (most likely)
> horrid translations.
>
> Scott (who did this w/ my trusty "Oxford Pocket Latin Dictionary"
> while listening to the media re-hash the same election facts over and
> over and over...)
>
>
> PS:> > > "There are some things you just can't go through together
> without
> > > > ending up friends. And knocking out a full-grown mountain troll
> is one
> > > > of them."
>
> I like this one too....
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 05:47:19 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:47:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com> <03cc01c049d6$4781ece0$1a3663c3@merchantbtinternet.com> <3A0A01E7.7614633B@alumni.upenn.edu> <3A0A26D3.7A42D831@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00d301c04a10$871c87e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5493

They did say things to the poll workers at the time, it appears, but some of
them ignored them, others gave them new ballots, and others didn't say
anything.  It appears that the person who was overtop the poll workers
issued a menu-type flyer to advise folks to vote the right way because it
was confusing (They were showing that flyer both last night and today at
CNN).  I don't know if you can let the whole county re-do the vote.  It
sounds like, according to CNN that the usual method of dealing with this is
throwing out the disputed votes!

Wouldn't you hate to be one of those who knew which arrow to follow (even if
your glasses had to be 2 inches thick like mine to see it!) and your vote
ended up in the trash?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: And the winner is George W. Voldemort (OT)


> heidi wrote:
>
> > Just to complicate things, Florida law specifies that voters mark the
space
> > to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for.
>
> But didn't the head election official (title escapes me) approve the
ballot?
> Surely she knows this law? That's weird.
>
> > Now, I'm not suggesting that Florida voters *knew* the law said "right"
and
> > voted that way because of it. I'm saying that the ballot design may
actually
> > have been illegal under Florida law. You can see the ballot at
> > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
>
> Well, it doesn't look that confusing to me, but maybe they could have made
the
> arrows bigger or something. Why didn't anyone say anything to the election
> judges at the polling place? Or say anything during the election, instead
of
> after? Or did they, and we're not hearing about it?
>
> > So what happens now?
>
> Good question. I don't think you can let some of the population recast
their
> votes, without letting everyone. Urgh.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Thu Nov  9 09:00:17 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:00:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
Message-ID: <20001109090017.14004.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5494

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> skrev: > Peg
Kerr wrote:
[...]
> My only complaint is the design of the House
> shields. Argh. Clearly designed
> by someone who has seen lots of modern sports logos,
> and very little old
> heraldry. Ugh.
[...]
And they are SO untrue to the arms as described in the
books - Gryffindor should have a lion rampant, not
just a lion's head, Rawenclaw chould have an eagle
ascening, not just an eagle's head, etc.  The charges
seem legitimate enough as heraldical charges, but they
are treated in a very inappropriate manner
(transparent lion's head?).  Whatever is on top of the
shields is unfitting in my book (which, when the
library gets around to it, will be the Oxford Guide to
Heraldry) - the Slytherin shield actually makes me
think of the signs used for Interstate Highways in the
US.


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Thu Nov  9 10:47:44 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:47:44 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
In-Reply-To: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8udvch+iqti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5495

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brandgwen G." <brandgwen at h...> 
wrote:
 I 
> don't think Ron would ever go bad - he sacrificed himself the the 
> Philosophers Stone chess game, his first instinct in the Prisoner 
of 
> Azkaban, when the Grim was charging Harry, was to push Harry aside, 
then, 
> later, he told Sirius that if he wanted to kill Harry he'd have to 
kill him 
> first.  He was sorted into Gryffindor in seconds.  Lets face it - 
this kid 
> IS the Gryffindor dragon.  Hermione values courage and friendship 
very 
> highly (she says so, somewhere in PS) and is Muggle-born and proud 
of it. 

Hi Gwen

I believe that Ron is essentially a very good friend and has every 
intention of standing by Harry. In dangerous and desperate 
situations, he will rise to the occasion because instinctively he 
will protect his friends. However, I've mentioned somewhere before 
that I think he might very well end up as the "weak link" for want of 
a better description. Why I say this is because firstly, Ron is 
extremely sensitive about his poverty and time and again, we see 
references of this when Malfoy taunts him, when he gets second hand 
gowns, wand, pets...He said somewhere "Why is everything I own 
rubbish ?" Secondly, he does enjoy being in the limelight as he is 
constantly overshadowed by his brothers and Harry. It is his deepest 
desire to be Head Boy and Captain of Quidditch and he thoroughly 
enjoyed embellishing his underwater escapade in GoF to anyone who was 
interested.

What the above tendencies make me fear for Ron and Harry is that 
there is a possibility that Ron could be tempted to betray his 
friends for fame and fortune. No longer to be poor, no longer playing 
second fiddle. It's not something he would ordinarily even think of 
doing but someone cunning could play on his emotions and over time, 
who knows. And Voldemort, for all the evil in him, is extraordinarily 
brilliant. He managed to open the Chamber of Secrets whilst at 
Hogwarts, he found a way to preserve his memory in a diary, he made 
Quirrell use Harry in front of the Mirror of Erised, he hatched the 
plot in GoF, he found a way to transform himself over and over again 
before his ascent to power so that he would be near invincible. I'm 
not saying this because I admire the horrible git but if truth be 
told, he has done "great things", in the words of Ollivander. I find 
that he would be entirely capable of working his way through people's 
weaknesses.

Somehow, I think that Voldemort will start on Harry's friends because 
it's one thing to suffer pain yourself but worse for those near and 
dear to you. Perhaps another scenario could be that Ron could be 
lured somewhere with a seemingly innocuous promise of fortune (but 
with absolutely no intention of betraying his friends)and then find 
himself under the Imperious Curse and then betray his friends.

I hope this will turn out to be only pure speculation. Honestly I'd 
hate to read about it because I find their friendship, the three of 
them in particular, very endearing. 

Anyway, that's just my little two knutes for today..welcome to the 
Club!

Gen





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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov  9 11:49:22 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 06:49:22 -0500
Subject: update from florida - OT
References: <8ubp5p+csj6@eGroups.com> <03cc01c049d6$4781ece0$1a3663c3@merchantbtinternet.com> <3A0A01E7.7614633B@alumni.upenn.edu> <3A0A26D3.7A42D831@texas.net> <00d301c04a10$871c87e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A0A8F42.EE1EA3DE@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5496

Bush's  precarious lead over Al Gore in the presidential race in Florida
diminished much further Wednesday night as revised results from 28 counties
shaved 841 votes off Bush's  1,784-vote advantage.

 Bush still leads Gore, but his margin has shrunk to 943 votes in the state that
will pick the next president. Gore gained 1,186 votes and Bush 345.

And we're still waiting for an unknown number of absentee ballots -the major
military group in the state is in port & not overseas so the understanding is
that most of them who are registered in florida voted on tuesday - and there's
about 1000+ registered voters from south florida living in israel - the
supposition is most of them will be voting for Gore (most are registered
democrats, plus there's the Leiberman Factor)

Also, in addition to the unusually high 3000+ votes for Buchanan in Palm Beach
(home of the Weird Looking Ballot), about 19,000 ballots were thrown out because
they had *2* candidates punched -one of hte tv stations down here reported that
they had been told by a polling person that a large percentage of them marked
both Gore & Buchanan, which gives more credence to the "we were confused"
argument.

Someone asked about whether any people who were confused asked for help with the
ballots -  some have told their stories to the press, syaing they were told to
punch the Buchanan box for Gore, or they asked for a new ballot (which they are
allowed to do as a matter of law) and their incorrect ballots were taken &
stuffed into the box against their wishes.

People are suing in Palm Beach so we'll see what happens with this.




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  9 12:15:05 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 12:15:05 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <3A0A0C26.AC8FFFDA@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ue4g9+mcne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5497

Peg wrote: 

"Hmm.  You know, now that I think about it, I cannot remember seeing 
more than a couple of messages on this list EVER about Peeves, which 
seems strange since we tend to discuss everything exhaustively.  And 
yet, when you think about it, he does appear in an awful lot of 
scenes. 

What function does he serve in the story?  The Greek chorus?"

You baited your hook well to catch a classicist!  

What do you mean by the Greek chorus?  In tragedy, the chorus was 
there to provide some comment on what was happening, or to give some 
information to the audience, or perhaps to express the poet's 
viewpoint (different tragedians used the chorus differently).  They 
rarely played a part in the way the story fell out, except sometimes 
when the Leader of the Chorus would be involved in dialogues.  

Mostly, he seems to be there for background colour.  He hasn't played 
an important part in any of the plots (unless I'm forgetting 
something), and he seems to be another of the obstacles that HHR must 
get around, particularly when they're breaking rules (c.f. in PS when 
they go out under the invisibility cloak and Hermione pretends to be 
teh Bloody Baron to get him to go away, and many other incidents).  

I don't think he's a Greek chorus, though he does sometimes play a 
similar role, as when he makes up little songs to sing about how 
Harry is the heir of Slytherin etc, in CoS, which keep the events in 
everyone's minds.  He certainly is not only an observer of the events 
who makes moral and social comment on what is going on.  And I very 
much doubt that at the end he'll get a little speech saying 'life's 
like that, you know' the way the chorus always does at the end of a 
tragedy!  

So what is he if he's not a Chorus?  I think he provides comic 
relief, bathos at moments of tension and an obstacle for HHR to get 
around.  Do you think he'll ever get a more crucial role than this?

-Blaise.   







From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov  9 13:02:07 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:02:07 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <8ue4g9+mcne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ue78f+gl12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5498

Why doesn't Dumbledore get rid of him?  Madame Maxime (or perhaps it 
was Fleur) indicated that he wouldn't have been allowed at 
Beauxbatons, so it must be possible to banish him if D had wanted to 
do so. 

JKR has built some complexity into this character -- It might be an 
interesting exercise to go through all the "Peeves" scenes in the 
books and analyze.

-Jim Flanagan

Blaise said:

> So what is he if he's not a Chorus?  I think he provides comic 
> relief, bathos at moments of tension and an obstacle for HHR to get 
> around.  Do you think he'll ever get a more crucial role than this?





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov  9 12:37:02 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 06:37:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
References: <3A0A26A8.52CEB57F@ibm.net> <3A0A2A49.2F4D1598@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A0A9A6E.8FD551B@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5499

The figures are about 1/2 to 3/4 life size (well, except for Hagrid, of course!)

The show is in downtown Minneapolis, at the Dayton's store.  (Ever see the old
Mary Tyler Moore show?  It's the store in the background when Mary throws up her
hat,)  And I work directly across the street (aren't you all jealous?)

BTW, I stopped over at the show again last night after work to go through again.
I may attempt some more pictures later--it looks as though they have some more
spot lights up so pictures will come out better.  I asked someone there about
the music.  It seems that the designers got the tape of music directly from
Warner Brothers, in bits and scraps which they then edited into sequence.  I
wonder again if what I wasn't hearing was bits and scraps of John Williams'
composing, as he begins working on the score.  It sure sounded like his stuff.

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Peg Kerr wrote:
>
> > You can see the folder of pictures
>
> I finally got a chance to check them out. Way cool! Where was this again?
> And how big are these figures?
>
> My only complaint is the design of the House shields. Argh. Clearly designed
> by someone who has seen lots of modern sports logos, and very little old
> heraldry. Ugh.
>
> Thanks, Peg!
>
> --Amanda
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 14:23:18 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 08:23:18 -0600
Subject: Politics (OT)
References: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com> <3A0A1613.B986D7C1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A0AB356.36881DCB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5500

Hi --

On the issue of whether the election of Dubya poses any sort of threat
to efforts by local school districts to ban books such as HP --

I agree that Bush is not evil incarnate.  He does not appear to be an
unreasonably intolerant individual.  But, his *individual* views won't
really count for much.  I am, and will remain, very very concerned about
the composition of the Supreme Court.  I think it's safe to say that any
appointments made by Dubya will be individuals with a conservative
jurist background (whether he employs an abortion rights "litmus test"
or not).  It would not take very many arch-conservative appointees in
the ilk of Scalia and Thomas to tilt the Court to the far right of
overall American opinion.  Supreme Court appointees have a knack of
sometimes surprising their appointers (I believe Brennan or Marshall or
both were appointed by Eisenhower for example).  IMO, we can only hope
that this will prove true of any Dubya appointees.

If a local school district chooses to ban books, a challenger would
likely be forced to challenge it by invoking infringement of various
constitutional rights, which puts their case into the federal court
system.  As I understand it, the federal courts are still *packed* with
Reagan and Bush Sr. appointments.  Dubya appointments will only increase
that margin.  *That* is my concern.  Yeah, Bush individually might have
read HP to his daughters when they were younger if the books had been
available.  But, if he packs the Court (and lower federal courts) with
far-right conservative jurists, then it's anyone's guess as to how they
will interpret the Constitutional issues associated with book-banning in
public schools (among a myriad of other issues).

My other concern is with the lack of checks & balances that *may* result
from this election.  It appears right now that the Republicans have a
narrow margin of control in both the House & the Senate.  I know there
are some seats that are still a bit in dispute but . . . . if it should
prove to be the case, then passage of Republican legislative proposals
will be tons easier.  In that case, then I tend to think you *could* see
more of "Jump!  How high?" in Washington.

The fact remains that if you have one party in control of the executive
and legislative branch (and in charge of appointments to the federal
judiciary), it's a concern in our system of government.  IMO.  Wall
Street seems to agree with me too -- the stock market *tanked*
yesterday.

I don't really know what will happen in Florida, but I like my husband's
musings from last night.  He said "I think Bush will win and he'll wish
he hadn't."

My 2 galleons --

Penny






From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 14:27:40 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 08:27:40 -0600
Subject: Wizarding Govt
References: <8ud9rm+7tmk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0AB45C.F65C2BB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5501

Hi --

Scott wrote:

> Also a thought about Wizard Politics...I know it probably isn't the
> most likely but couldn't it be possible that the MoM is a ministry
> (dept.) of an international Wizard Government (similar to the UN, in
> a way...) and that the Warlocks are the governing body (like
> Parliament or Congress).  Each country's Ministry is a segment of
> that one gov.'t....Does that make sense at all???

I think it's more likely that the Int'l Federation of Wizards is akin to
the UN -- it's an international organization with representatives
appointed by wizarding govts from individual member nations.  I would
think that the wizarding govt for each country is based on the muggle
system of govt for that country (or has evolved to mirror the muggle
system over time).  I think the MoM governs the wizarding population in
Great Britain.  So, I think the MoM probably has represenatives
appointed to the Int'l Federation of Wizards -- Dumbledore would be one
rep, wouldn't he?

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  9 14:30:38 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:30:38 -0000
Subject: Foolish Things (was re: Ron in Shining Armor/Pettigrew parallels)
In-Reply-To: <8udvch+iqti@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uecee+n5hd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5502

When that I was and a little tiny boy,
   With hey-ho, the wind and the rain;
A foolish thing was but a toy,
   For the rain in raineth every day.

But when I came to man's estate,
   With hey-ho, the wind and the rain;
'Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate,
   For the rain in raineth every day.

     Twelfth Night (act V, scene 1)

Zsenya wrote:
> The only time [Ron] wavers is in GoF and that is just a childish 
spat.

In GoF, generally, there is a lot of petty stuff going on.  Ron and 
Hermione are both courting the Green Eyed Monster, Fred and George
are trying the blackmail a public official, Harry is leaving the
trial clues to the last minute.  Then there's the ball fiasco. I
think this is JKR's way of saying "these are kids".  14 year olds do 
this stuff.

The greatest example of this is Harry's attitude to Cedric.  Harry 
begins to hate Cedric over a girl and a sport and, at the time, it 
doesn't seem so ridiculous.  Then, Cedric dies and things are put
into perspective.  With the rise of Voldemort, there is not longer 
room for 14 year old concerns.  Our heroes must grow up.

In another strand (the Star Wars strand), you have been talking about 
Harry as the Classical Hero.  A major aspect of the Classical Hero 
archetype is that he is born to do something great, but first must go 
on a journey and pass a number of tests, readying him for the final 
battle.  In the GoF, Harry learns to look beyond his teenage self and 
see the bigger picture.  He learns to accept help, in spite of his 
pride, he learns that people are not always what they seem, and he 
learns to cry.  He is a far bigger person at the end of GoF than he 
was at the beginning.

Ron, on the other hand, is the Folk Hero.  He is born an ordinary 
person, but must grow beyond his commonplace origins to become a
hero.  Ron and Harry have an argument because Harry is special and
Ron isn't.  At the time, they are facing no danger, so they can 
indulge their childishness.  However, the moment Ron realises that 
Harry is in real danger, he is at his side, doing his best to make 
things up.  It's all just part of the journey.

Gen wrote:
> However, I've mentioned somewhere before that I think he might very 
well end up as the "weak link"... firstly, Ron is extremely sensitive 
about his poverty...  Secondly, he does enjoy being in the limelight 
as he is constantly overshadowed by his brothers and Harry. It is his 
deepest desire to be Head Boy and Captain of Quidditch and he 
thoroughly enjoyed embellishing his underwater escapade in GoF to 
anyone who was interested.

Absolutely, but these are the concerns of a teenage boy in peacetime. 
 He has never needed more.  When Harry first looks into the mirror,
he sees his family.  Later, when he's with Quirrell, looking for the 
Stone, he sees himself with the Stone.  This shows how quickly our 
desires can change, if we challenge them.  If Ron had been the one 
facing Voldemort, knowing the fate of the Wizarding world lay in his 
finding the stone, do you really think Quidditch would have been 
foremost in his heart?

You'll also notice, Ron didn't become obsessed with the mirror, like 
Harry did.  He liked what he saw, but was able to move beyond it.

> I find that [Voldemort] would be entirely capable of working his
way through people's weaknesses.

Sure, but only if he is allowed.  That seems to be a big theme from 
GoF - the choice between what is right and what is easy.  The Death 
Eaters generally know the difference between right and wrong. 
They're not brainwashed; they've made a choice. Ron might be very 
ambitious and somewhat selfish at times, but he both values and 
possesses courage.  He wants things, but not at any price.

> Perhaps another scenario could be that Ron could be lured somewhere 
with a seemingly innocuous promise of fortune (but with absolutely no 
intention of betraying his friends)and then find himself under the 
Imperious Curse and then betray his friends.

I'd like to see how Ron handles such a situation - we already know, 
from the DODA class with Moody/Crouch that he is susceptible to the 
Imperious Curse.  However, we also know how to break it - you have to 
listen to and trust that little voice in your head that says "don't
do it!".  I have a lot of faith in Ron's little voice... I'm just not 
sure Ron does.

> ... welcome to the Club!

Thanks!
Gwen.






From byron_wilde at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  9 14:31:39 2000
From: byron_wilde at yahoo.com (crystal keller)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:31:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] bush impact
Message-ID: <20001109143139.16075.qmail@web3406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5503

Of course Bush himself can't push legislation that
would ban books such as Harry potter. Presidents or
congress for that matter don't have that kind of power
because comprimise is the name of the game.

The concern for me about any Republican administration
is judicial appointments, particularily the supreme
court. this is where the true freedom of speech cases
are fought out.

The current supreme court is fairly balanced right
now, but there will likely be two new appointments
within the next four years. The president makes those
recommendations and those recommendations are
typically folks who agree with party philosophy.
The religious right continues to have far too much
influence on the republican party and judical
appointmnets may very well reflect that.

my 2 cents.

-Crystal

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov  9 17:35:41 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 17:35:41 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <8ue78f+gl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uen9d+286a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5504

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Why doesn't Dumbledore get rid of him?  Madame Maxime (or perhaps it 
> was Fleur) indicated that he wouldn't have been allowed at 
> Beauxbatons, so it must be possible to banish him if D had wanted to 
> do so. 

	It was Fleur, at the Yule ball, GoF ch. 23. 

Peeves engages in a lot of petty vandalism and outrageous rudeness 
(burlesquing Christmas carols, teasing Lupin). He is JKR's way of  
making it ok to laugh at pranks which would be rather troubling if they 
were done by the students. IMHO
Pippin





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Nov  9 18:29:22 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:29:22 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <8uen9d+286a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ueqe2+630a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5505

Peeves:-

A while back I posted a theory about Peeves which was, admittedly, a 
bit bizarre.  No one commented on it at the time, probably because it 
was buried in one of my unwise "Dumbledore's bad streak" posts, so 
I'll repeat it:

Knowing JKR's fondness for wordplay in the naming of characters, I 
find it interesting that "Pensieve" is an anagram of "In Peeves" and 
wonder whether Peeves is a personification of Dumbledore's spare 
thoughts, a bit like an id.  IMO, it would explain how Dumbledore 
manages to keep such a close eye on things without roaming around 
Hogwarts himself, and we know that Dumbledore has a mischievous, 
adolescent vein in his personality.

So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on 
the unsuspecting students?

Neil     






From john at walton.to  Thu Nov  9 18:55:39 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:55:39 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] bush impact (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20001109143139.16075.qmail@web3406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B630A247.7D3F%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5506

crystal keller at byron_wilde at yahoo.com wrote:

> Of course Bush himself can't push legislation that
> would ban books such as Harry potter. Presidents or
> congress for that matter don't have that kind of power
> because comprimise is the name of the game.

Umm...only problem is that the GOP hold Congress. And, since Bush is
controlled by the RNC, that means change...for the worse, IMHO.

On the subject of the Floridian Buchanan Ballot Blunder (Hmm...sounds like a
Weasley Wheeze to me!), it's interesting to note that even Pat Buchanan (He
Who Must Not Be Named) agrees that the ballot was misleading.

Gore supporters, don't lose hope -- over a thousand votes from Floridians
living in Israel have yet to come in. And, with the Lieberman effect, it's
possible they may tip the scales. We hope.

--Crazy Ivan

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

DON'T BLAME ME -- I VOTED FOR GORE
===================================================== 




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov  9 18:59:16 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:59:16 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <8ue78f+gl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ues64+h6sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5507

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Why doesn't Dumbledore get rid of him?  Madame Maxime (or perhaps 
it 
> was Fleur) indicated that he wouldn't have been allowed at 
> Beauxbatons, so it must be possible to banish him if D had wanted 
to 
> do so. 
> 
It seems to me that Peeves antics fit in well with Dumbledores 
attitudes, in that 

(1) Dumbly clearly has a somewhat childish and wacky sense of humor, 
so he probably finds Peeves amusing, and

(2) Dumbly clearly believes that one important lesson that the 
students must learn is how to deal with lifes problems on their own.  
So he allows nasty, unfair teachers like Snape so that the kids can 
learn to deal with the unfairness of life (JKR has said as much about 
Snape IIRC), and Peeves teaches them to deal with lifes little 
annoyances.

-- Joywitch




From lmrourke at snet.net  Thu Nov  9 19:08:33 2000
From: lmrourke at snet.net (Lisa Rourke)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:08:33 -0500
Subject: Fanfic, Fanart, Ford Anglia equivalent, etc.
Message-ID: <000801c04a80$9012e2c0$1c383ccc@krass>

No: HPFGUIDX 5508

I haven't posted anything in a long while as I've been trying to read some
fanfics in between trying to keep up with the daily HP digests in addition
to my regular boring Muggle work.  But I just wanted to thank Blaise and
Firebolt and anyone else who recommended CALL OF THE WILD by the Wolfie
Twins.  I took me a while but it was time well spent.  Great Fanfic!   I
also enjoyed THE FIC THAT MUST NOT BE NAMED by Moon (ROTFL!).  I'm
embarrassed to admit that I haven't yet read PoU or DD.  But I WILL get
around to it.  They definitely help fill the void while waiting for Book 5.
:-)
On the subject of Fanart, I was wondering if it's ok to post some artwork of
mine to the groups fanart files.  It's just a couple of pencil drawings I
did after reading the books this past summer and some photos of window
paintings I did at the store where I work.  I'm the store's resident
"artist" (stock person 95% of time) and when I was asked to paint something
for "back to school"  the first thing I thought of was Harry Potter (the
only boy I know of who can't wait for school to start!).  I painted 3
windows with a Harry Potter motif for back to school/Halloween.  I was
pleased to find out that just as many adults knew what I was painting as
kids.  I have to start thinking of Christmas/Holiday stuff now  and am kind
of reluctant to scrape it all off :-(   Anyway, I wanted to ask because I
feel funny just posting my stuff besides I not sure how long it will take me
to do this as I'm practically computer illiterate and will need the expert
help of my 14 year old daughter <G>!
As for the Ford Anglia...does it have an equivalent American counterpart and
name?  I saw a Hot Wheels size car that looked something like it but it was
a 1955 Ford Crown Victoria.  I know that Fords of the same make and model
have different names in England.  Like the Ford Fiesta or Escort was called
the Ford Prefect (like Arthur Dent's Friend) in England.  Any idea about
this, Neil?  I'm not a car buff but if there is an equivalent, I'd buy one.
Last but most definitely not Least.....Congratulations to Penny and her
husband on their good news!!   I know you've heard this before but...having
a child REALLY changes your life !  Your gonna love it! <VBG>

Lisa (Mom 0f 4)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 19:53:48 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:53:48 -0600
Subject: Priori Incantatum [Fwd: THe Wand Mistake]
Message-ID: <3A0B00CC.83951E8F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5509

Hi --

The message below came from a member of the PoU message group.  She
asserted last night that the wand order "problem" was a mistake and had
been corrected in subsequent editions of GoF.  She posted what purport
to be "corrected" passages to this scene from GoF.  I asked her to email
me privately regarding her source as the topic is OT for the PoU group.
Her response is below.  As you can see she isn't a member of our group
and doesn't seem to plan on joining.

Here's my issue: Harry hadn't been thinking about his mother that
evening.  He'd only been thinking about his father.  So, the change
doesn't really make sense to me, and I confess that I'm more than a bit
skeptical.  It seems to me that if it was a mistake: (a) there would
have been some press coverage since the original "error" was written up
in a CNN article; and (b) the scene would have been rewritten more
expansively than simply changing the names & pronouns.  I'm not sure if
JKR has addressed this at all in interviews since the release of GoF --
does anyone else recall if she's been asked & enigmatically refused to
answer (or am I making that up)?

I'd love if one of our NY members would call the number that she lists
at the bottom of that message & try to investigate for us.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 19:58:03 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:58:03 -0600
Subject: More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
Message-ID: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5510

Hi --

I just re-read through the "corrected passage" and also wanted to note
that "untidy-haired" doesn't seem like correct usage to me.  It also
just doesn't sound like JKR or Scholastic editors.  I would think she
would phrase it more as "James, tall with black untidy hair just like
Harry's, ..."  or something more grammatically correct.

In short, I still think this is just an internet rumor.

Thoughts?

Penny




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 20:00:40 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:00:40 -0600
Subject: Cut & Paste of Emerald's Message on the Wand Order Issue
Message-ID: <3A0B0268.DA472004@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5511

Hi --

Sorry -- egroups cut off the attachment I suppose.  I've cut & pasted
below what she sent to me verbatim.

Penny

-----------------------

Hello!
    I first noticed the wand mistake the day after I finished reading
GoF.
I write JKR a letter c/o Arthur Levine Books, to the address listed on
the
bottom right back corner of the GoF book jacket. That was July 9th or
10th.
Around the middle of August I got a letter from Scholastic.  Thankfully
I
didn't throw it out and I'm retyping it here for you.

Thank you for your recent letter alerting us to an error you found in
the
Harry Potter series.  You are a very astute reader and we truly
appreciate
you taking the time to let us know about this problem.  It will be
corrected
in reprints.

Please accept the enclosed printed signed bookplate with our compliments
as
a
token of our appreciation for your support of Harry Potter.

We truly appreciate your interest in JK Rowling and her wonderful Harry
Potter series.  Thank you so much for writing to us.

Sincerely,

Scholastic Book Group


I have AOL and Someone on the Harry Potter message board retyped the
pages
that were corrected.  It really doesn't change the plot of message of
the
story, just reversing the roles of Harry's mother and father.  If you
want
to
put this up on the HarryPotterforGrownups egroup I'm recopying the pages

that
I put on the PoU egroup.  I don't want to join the HP forGrownups egroup

myself first because I'm not a grown up and second I don't feel like
watching
my mailbox explode.

If ever Harry might have released his wand from shock, it would have
been
then, but instinct kept him clutching his wand tightly, so that the
thread
of
golden light remained unbroken, even though the thick gray ghost of
Cedric
Diggory (was it a ghost? it looked so solid) emerged in its entirety
from
the
end of Voldemort's wand, as though it were squeezing itself out of a
very
narrow tunnel... and this shade of Cedric stood up, and looked up
and down the golden thread of light, and spoke.
    "Hold on Harry," it said.  Its voice was distant and echoing.  Harry

looked at Voldemort ... his wide red eyes were still shocked ... he had
no
more expected this than Harry had ... and, very dimly, Harry heard the
frightened yells of the Death Eaters, prowling around the edges of the
golden
dome...
    More screams of pain from the wand ... and then something else
emerged
form its tip ... the dense shadow of a second head, quickly followed by
arms
and torso ... and old man Harry had seen only in a dream was now pushing

himself out of the end of the wand just as Cedric had done ... and his
ghost,
or his shadow, or whatever it was, fell next to Cedric's, and surveyed
Harry
and Voldemort, and the golden web, and the connected wands, with mild
surprise,
leaning on his walking stick....
    "He was a real wizard, then?" the old man said, his eyes on
Voldemort.
"Killed me, that one did.... You fight him, boy..."   But already, yet
another head was emerging ... and this head, gray as a smokey statue,
was a
woman's.... Harry, both arms shaking now as he fought to keep his wand
still,
saw her drop to the ground and straighten up like the others,
staring....
    The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with
wide
eyes.   "Don't let go, now!" she cried, and her voice echoed like
Cedric's
as
though from very far away.  "Don't let him get you, Harry -- don't let
go!"
    She and the other two shadowy figures began to pace around the inner

wall
of the golden web, while the Death Eaters flitted around the outside of
it
... and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as the circled the duelers,
whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry
couldn't
hear to Voldemort.
    And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand
...
and Harry knew when he saw it who it would be ... he knew, as though he
had
expected it from the moment when Cedric had appeared from the wand...
knew,
because the woman was the one he'd thought of more than any other
tonight....
    The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground
as
Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his
arms
shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother.
    "Your father's coming..." she said quietly.  "Hold on for your
father...
it will be all right... hold on...."
    And he came... first his head, then his body... tall and
untidy-haired
like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed for the
end
of
Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife.
He
walked close to Harry, looking down at him, and he spoke in the same
distant,
echoing voice as the others, but quietly, so that Voldemort, his face
now
livid with fear as his victims prowled around him, could not hear....
    "When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments ...
but
we will give you time ... you must get to the Portkey, it will return
you
to
Hogwarts ... do you understand Harry?"

A telephone number came with the letter.  I didn't call it because I
don't
want to put long distnce calls on my dad's telephone bill, but here it
is
if
anyone wants to call:  (212) 343-6100.  Hope this sheds some light on
the
subject .  :-) Have a nice day!

ghSarahgh
"Twitchy little ferret, aren't you, Malfoy?"
-- Hermione
"CONSTANT VIGILANCE!"
--Mad-Eye Moody/Bartemius Crouch, Jr.
Ravenclaw Rules








From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov  9 20:43:51 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:43:51 -0000
Subject: Book mistake / wand order stuff
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEAPCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5512

Penny wrote: "The message below came from a member of the PoU message group.
She asserted last night that the wand order "problem" was a mistake and had
been corrected in subsequent editions of GoF.  She posted what purport to be
"corrected" passages to this scene from GoF.  I asked her to email me
privately regarding her source as the topic is OT for the PoU group. Her
response is below.  As you can see she isn't a member of our group and
doesn't seem to plan on joining."

In response to the message, and having an hour to waste in central Oxford
between lecture and class, I went and had a look at some different printings
of GoF in various bookshops today. I found that the passage has yet to be
changed. This is based on 1st to 7th printings of the UK version (I found a
1st edition in one of the bookshops - I was amazed that you could still buy
these - I would have thought that would all have been sold by now).


Penny wrote: "I just re-read through the "corrected passage" and also wanted
to note that "untidy-haired" doesn't seem like correct usage to me."
The corrected passage is supposedly: "And he came... first his head, then
his body... tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of
James Potter blossomed for the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground,
and straightened like his wife."

I think it could be solved by having the sentence as (i.e. a little word
reordering and adding of commas): "And he came... first his head, then his
body... tall and, like Harry, untidy-haired, the smoky, shadowy form of
James Potter blossomed for the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground,
and straightened like his wife."

If the mistake has been 'corrected' by Scholastic then it could be that JKR
did not write the correction and that they have just altered it, assuming
the passage to be incorrect.


Penny wrote: "I'm not sure if JKR has addressed this at all in interviews
since the release of GoF -- does anyone else recall if she's been asked &
enigmatically refused to answer (or am I making that up)?"

I cannot remember it being asked in any of the recent interviews.

Simon





From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Thu Nov  9 20:55:24 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:55:24 -0000
Subject: Politics (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A0AB356.36881DCB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uf2vs+qr7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5513

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> On the issue of whether the election of Dubya poses any sort of 
threat
> to efforts by local school districts to ban books such as HP --
> 
> I agree that Bush is not evil incarnate.  He does not appear to be 
an
> unreasonably intolerant individual.  But, his *individual* views 
won't
> really count for much.  I am, and will remain, very very concerned 
about
> the composition of the Supreme Court.  I think it's safe to say that 
any
> appointments made by Dubya will be individuals with a conservative
> jurist background (whether he employs an abortion rights "litmus 
test"
> or not).  It would not take very many arch-conservative appointees 
in
> the ilk of Scalia and Thomas to tilt the Court to the far right of
> overall American opinion.  Supreme Court appointees have a knack of
> sometimes surprising their appointers (I believe Brennan or Marshall 
or
> both were appointed by Eisenhower for example).  IMO, we can only 
hope
> that this will prove true of any Dubya appointees.
> 
> If a local school district chooses to ban books, a challenger would
> likely be forced to challenge it by invoking infringement of various
> constitutional rights, which puts their case into the federal court
> system.  As I understand it, the federal courts are still *packed* 
with
> Reagan and Bush Sr. appointments.  Dubya appointments will only 
increase
> that margin.  *That* is my concern.  Yeah, Bush individually might 
have
> read HP to his daughters when they were younger if the books had 
been
> available.  But, if he packs the Court (and lower federal courts) 
with
> far-right conservative jurists, then it's anyone's guess as to how 
they
> will interpret the Constitutional issues associated with 
book-banning in
> public schools (among a myriad of other issues).
> 
> My other concern is with the lack of checks & balances that *may* 
result
> from this election.  It appears right now that the Republicans have 
a
> narrow margin of control in both the House & the Senate.  I know 
there
> are some seats that are still a bit in dispute but . . . . if it 
should
> prove to be the case, then passage of Republican legislative 
proposals
> will be tons easier.  In that case, then I tend to think you *could* 
see
> more of "Jump!  How high?" in Washington.
> 
> The fact remains that if you have one party in control of the 
executive
> and legislative branch (and in charge of appointments to the federal
> judiciary), it's a concern in our system of government.  IMO.  Wall
> Street seems to agree with me too -- the stock market *tanked*
> yesterday.
> 
> I don't really know what will happen in Florida, but I like my 
husband's
> musings from last night.  He said "I think Bush will win and he'll 
wish
> he hadn't."
> 
> My 2 galleons --
> 
> Penny

I'm quite happy with the narrow majority/minority in the next 
Congress. With such a narrow margin, it will force BOTH sides to 
compromise in order to resolve issues. Unrestrained partisanism 
for either side will be detrimental to both parties. "Third" parties 
are growing in popularity. If the Democrats and Republicans wish to 
practice self-preservation, they wouldn't attempt to engage in 
partisanism when the margin is this narrow. 

Also, there are some Republicans, such as Senator Snow of Maine and 
Congresswoman Morella of Maryland, who do not vote consistantly along 
party-lines. This too must be taken into consideration, because 
these "mavericks" become more important when the margin is this 
narrow. In other words, the Republican leadership will have to 
keep them within the fold. 

Compromise is the only avenue for the 2001 Congress to succeed. As 
this election has proved, the nation is divided. It's time to find a 
happy medium and become stronger or continue on the current partisan 
path and become weaker.

By the way, the AP News Wire reports that New Mexico's vote is being 
re-counted.

~Demelza





From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Thu Nov  9 21:05:26 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:05:26 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
References: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5514

I agree - to me it reads as if someone's just swapped the words around until
it fits what we already know of Lily and James' death.  I would have thought
if it was going to be rewritten it would have been done a bit more
carefully.  Also, I don't know about anyone else, but they've just swopped
Lily and James' dialogue around (with a little bit of tinkering - in the
original GoF James doesn't tell Harry to hold on til his mother gets there -
he just says it'll be alright, even though IIRC it's Lily who actually tells
Harry that they will be able to linger for a short time to help him escape -
yet in the extract Penny quoted Lily feels the need to tell Harry to hold on
for his father) and I think, from the little we know of James, that his
short speech to Harry just reads like James, and it doesn't read quite
correctly as Lily's.  And on further thought, I think the inserted line
reads badly full stop.  Surely, if they we going to swop the order, they'd
have reworked the dialogue properly, instead of just adding one single
superfluous sentence?

Alix

----- Original Message -----
From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: HPforGrownups <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:58 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue


> Hi --
>
> I just re-read through the "corrected passage" and also wanted to note
> that "untidy-haired" doesn't seem like correct usage to me.  It also
> just doesn't sound like JKR or Scholastic editors.  I would think she
> would phrase it more as "James, tall with black untidy hair just like
> Harry's, ..."  or something more grammatically correct.
>
> In short, I still think this is just an internet rumor.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Penny
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Thu Nov  9 21:31:47 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:31:47 -0000
Subject: bush impact (OT)
In-Reply-To: <B630A247.7D3F%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8uf543+j22e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5515

 John Walton wrote:
> Gore supporters, don't lose hope -- over a thousand votes from 
Floridians
> living in Israel have yet to come in. And, with the Lieberman 
effect, it's
> possible they may tip the scales. We hope.
> 
> --Crazy Ivan

Seeing how the Clinton-Gore administration has been pro-Palestinian, 
it boggles my mind how that would ever happen.

Seeing how the Supreme Court voted against school prayer before school 
football games (which seems awfully anti-Religious Right to me), I'm 
not to worried about the "Religious Right's" influence on the Supreme 
Court. I'm more worried about the non-"Religious Right" groups that 
want to ban books such as "Huckleberry Finn" and "Catcher in the 
Rye" due to their un-"Politically Correct" content. 

~Demelza
(I'm neither a Republican nor Democrat and I believe both parties 
successfully prostitute themselves to special interest groups and 
ignore Average Joe and Jane American.)




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Nov  9 21:37:42 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (Lori Summers)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:37:42 -0500
Subject: Book printings
In-Reply-To: <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer>
References: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net> <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <v04220801b630c909aac3@[128.146.20.114]>

No: HPFGUIDX 5516


I would like to clarify something that's been bugging me as one who 
works in the book business.

There are NO second editions of HP books.  The only editions that 
exist are the first editions.

There are first PRINTINGS, and so forth.  All the books are first 
editions.  Unless something is changed and the book is republished 
after revision, they are all first editions.

It's been bothering me when I see people on eBay selling 
Philosopher's Stone "first editions" for a lot of money.  Well, you 
could sell a hardback you bought yesterday as a first edition because 
it is one.  It's the first PRINTING that's valuable.

Thank, I'm glad I got that off my chest.  :-)

Lori




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Nov  9 21:44:38 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:44:38 -0000
Subject: More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
In-Reply-To: <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8uf5s6+ibit@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5517

Until Scholastic or Bloomsbury issues an official statement, I 
wouldn't put too much stock in this.

:-) Milz

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> I agree - to me it reads as if someone's just swapped the words 
around until
> it fits what we already know of Lily and James' death.  I would have 
thought
> if it was going to be rewritten it would have been done a bit more
> carefully.  Also, I don't know about anyone else, but they've just 
swopped
> Lily and James' dialogue around (with a little bit of tinkering - in 
the
> original GoF James doesn't tell Harry to hold on til his mother gets 
there -
> he just says it'll be alright, even though IIRC it's Lily who 
actually tells
> Harry that they will be able to linger for a short time to help him 
escape -
> yet in the extract Penny quoted Lily feels the need to tell Harry to 
hold on
> for his father) and I think, from the little we know of James, that 
his
> short speech to Harry just reads like James, and it doesn't read 
quite
> correctly as Lily's.  And on further thought, I think the inserted 
line
> reads badly full stop.  Surely, if they we going to swop the order, 
they'd
> have reworked the dialogue properly, instead of just adding one 
single
> superfluous sentence?
> 
> Alix
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> To: HPforGrownups <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:58 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake 
Issue
> 
> 
> > Hi --
> >
> > I just re-read through the "corrected passage" and also wanted to 
note
> > that "untidy-haired" doesn't seem like correct usage to me.  It 
also
> > just doesn't sound like JKR or Scholastic editors.  I would think 
she
> > would phrase it more as "James, tall with black untidy hair just 
like
> > Harry's, ..."  or something more grammatically correct.
> >
> > In short, I still think this is just an internet rumor.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Penny
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 21:39:25 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:39:25 -0600
Subject: Bush impact & Book-Banning (OT)
References: <8uf543+j22e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B198C.AAC47B40@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5518

Hi --

Demelza wrote:

> Seeing how the Supreme Court voted against school prayer before school
>
> football games (which seems awfully anti-Religious Right to me), I'm
> not to worried about the "Religious Right's" influence on the Supreme
> Court. I'm more worried about the non-"Religious Right" groups that
> want to ban books such as "Huckleberry Finn" and "Catcher in the
> Rye" due to their un-"Politically Correct" content.

You are aware that several of the current justices are approaching a
very advanced age, correct?  If any of them should die or retire from
the Court during a Bush administration, he would select the new
replacement justices.  *That's* the issue.  The composition of the Court
is currently centrist enough to make reasonable decisions in most
instances, but that could easily change.  Add in another Scalia or
Clarence Thomas and who knows what sort of decisions might be rendered.
IMO!

I do agree with you that book-banning is not limited to groups with
fundamentalist ties.  Many books are banned because they are deemed to
be not politically correct (your examples, plus "Little House on the
Prairie" spring to mind).  The question then becomes what happens when
the book-banning is challenged?  It eventually ends up in the court
system, and inevitably in the *federal* court system.  Federal court
judges & S Ct appointments are handled by the executive administration
then in power in Washington.  So . . . . deduce from that what you will.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 21:50:39 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:50:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
References: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3A0B1C2F.F7E15998@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5519

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> In short, I still think this is just an internet rumor.

I think you're probably right. If it's been corrected in subsequent
editions, can't we just check a subsequent edition? How about the
translations, wouldn't they be from the most recent correct version?

--Amanda




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov  9 21:57:57 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:57:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book printings
References: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net> <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer> <v04220801b630c909aac3@[128.146.20.114]>
Message-ID: <3A0B1DE5.12455E86@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5520

Hi --

Lori Summers wrote:

> There are NO second editions of HP books.  The only editions that
> exist are the first editions.

You are absolutely right, and I apologize for confusing the issue.  I
typed that subsequent "editions" of GoF had been supposedly changed.  I
was typing fast & didn't catch my own egregious error.  I not only
*know* this, I've addressed it to this group before myself.  Shame on
me!  Being an HP collector I can also attest to what Lori says about
sellers on ebay.  Alot of them are really probably robbing people
because they're advertising a 22nd printing as a "1st edition," and
someone who's not well-informed thinks they're getting this really
valuable book.  Wrong.

Anyway -- thanks for pointing that out Lori!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov  9 22:26:09 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 16:26:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT, political, but not Bush (wow)
References: <8uf543+j22e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B2481.BF46DF7D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5521

Demelza wrote:

>  Seeing how the Supreme Court voted against school prayer before school
> football games (which seems awfully anti-Religious Right to me), I'm
> not to worried about the "Religious Right's" influence on the Supreme
> Court.

We're in Texas, home of the prayerful football fans. Most of the people I
know are heartily sick of this whole issue and don't really give a rat's
patoot. I didn't know the background of this case until the latest issue of
Texas Monthly (a tremendously yuppie publication which focuses mainly on
Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and Austin; the subscription was a gift). Their
summation seems fairly well-done and supposedly is objective. But that whole
town comes across as Pleasantville, and the pack behavior is scary. The
football prayer thing was only one of nine things cited in the original case
filed by three parents--another was Gideon bibles being given away on the
high school campus (!). Apparently students who refused them were verbally
abused by other students. Ye gods. WE ARE NOT ALL LIKE THIS.

I'm concerned that the media tends to use "religious" and "fundamentalist"
interchangeably, and that perception is creeping into most people's
concepts. I'm religious, I like nativity scenes in store windows, etc. But I
also believe in evolution, liked comparative religion, can see that Wicca
has a point in wanting to be recognized, and don't think considering the
bible as a great work of literature is blasphemous. But then, I'm Catholic,
and most of the religious right probably think I'm going to hell anyway, for
acknowledging other moral authorities than the bible. Oh, well, I can party
down with the Jews, witches, Buddhists, Harry Potter readers, and all the
people who slow-dance. I think people who sell beer are going there,
too--should be good.

> I'm more worried about the non-"Religious Right" groups that
> want to ban books such as "Huckleberry Finn" and "Catcher in the
> Rye" due to their un-"Politically Correct" content.

I'm with you there. I really dislike the current trend of judging the past
by the standards of the present--books *or* people. Once you start judging
works of literature according to what's acceptable or "good" at the present
moment, it's that "slippery slope" thing.

On the other hand, I'd rather they be banned than changed. I remember my
father being irate that he could not find a copy of Kipling's Just So
Stories that had not been altered--in "How the Leopard Got His Spots," what
the Ethiopian says when the Leopard asks why he doesn't go for spots, too,
is, "Plain black's best for a nigger." All modern versions (that we could
find) have this changed to "Plain black's best for me." I'm sorry, I know
the word's explosive now, but that's what the man wrote, and I emphatically
don't believe in that sort of posthumous alteration. The literature of the
past, like its artwork, is a window on that time and perspective. Starting
to "fix" things like this is a slow creep to Orwell. Sigh. They put fig
leaves on pictures of Michelangelo's David, too, don't they.

> (I'm neither a Republican nor Democrat and I believe both parties
> successfully prostitute themselves to special interest groups and
> ignore Average Joe and Jane American.)

Well put. I wonder, though, sometimes, if there is any such animal as the
"average" person.

--Amanda




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Thu Nov  9 22:50:13 2000
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza )
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:50:13 -0000
Subject: Bush impact & Book-Banning (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A0B198C.AAC47B40@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uf9n5+voj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5522

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > Seeing how the Supreme Court voted against school prayer before 
school
> >
> > football games (which seems awfully anti-Religious Right to me), 
I'm
> > not to worried about the "Religious Right's" influence on the 
Supreme
> > Court. I'm more worried about the non-"Religious Right" groups 
that
> > want to ban books such as "Huckleberry Finn" and "Catcher in the
> > Rye" due to their un-"Politically Correct" content.
> 
> You are aware that several of the current justices are approaching a
> very advanced age, correct?  If any of them should die or retire 
from
> the Court during a Bush administration, he would select the new
> replacement justices.  *That's* the issue.  The composition of the 
Court
> is currently centrist enough to make reasonable decisions in most
> instances, but that could easily change.  Add in another Scalia or
> Clarence Thomas and who knows what sort of decisions might be 
rendered.
> IMO!
> 
> I do agree with you that book-banning is not limited to groups with
> fundamentalist ties.  Many books are banned because they are deemed 
to
> be not politically correct (your examples, plus "Little House on the
> Prairie" spring to mind).  The question then becomes what happens 
when
> the book-banning is challenged?  It eventually ends up in the court
> system, and inevitably in the *federal* court system.  Federal court
> judges & S Ct appointments are handled by the executive 
administration
> then in power in Washington.  So . . . . deduce from that what you 
will.
> 
> Penny

Ginsburg was born in 1933. Stoufer born in 1939. Thomas born in 1948. 
Breyer born in 1938. Scalia born 1936. Stevens born 1920. Rehnquist 
born 1924. O'Connor born 1930. Kennedy born 1936. Stoufer is the 
eldest at 80 and Rehnquist is the second eldest at 76 years old.

"Very advanced age" to me are the mid-late 90 year olds to 
centagenerians I work with at the nursing home and some of them are 
quite "sturdy" for their ages!

On the other hand, you do make a good point. If Gore becomes 
president, then he could very well appoint very liberal judges that 
would upset the centrist composition of the court. 

>From my point of view the extremist practices of the past presidents 
of "loading" the Court with those who march to the drums of the 
extremes of their parties is the most damaging to the political 
process. Average Joe and Jane American aren't being represented by 
these extremists apppointments: the special interest groups are. And, 
in my opinion, the special interest groups have done a very good job 
convincing the Average American that they represent the mainstream. 










From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov  9 23:35:51 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:35:51 -0000
Subject: Book printings
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b630c909aac3@[128.146.20.114]>
Message-ID: <8ufccn+f66t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5523

For anyone who is interested in collecting HP books, go to our Links 
area and look in "Collectors' Links".  There are a couple of Web 
sites that are very informative.  Even if you're not into collecting, 
these pages show some interesting differences between the various 
editions.

I've bought several early editions using eBay. My wife hasn't said 
anything yet, though she did make a big deal out of telling me the 
other day that she intended to liquidate her Beanie Baby collection 
(yeah right...).

The only significant mistake that I have made with eBay was to 
inadvertently bid on a Book of the Month Club "first printing".  
Otherwise I got some decent deals.  Some of the retail booksellers 
mark up the prices 2X or 3X compared with what you can sometimes get 
on eBay. Like in Poker, you have to know when to stop raising. Caveat 
emptor.

-Jim Flanagan. 


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Lori Summers <summers.65 at o...> 
wrote:
> 
> I would like to clarify something that's been bugging me as one who 
> works in the book business.
> 
> There are NO second editions of HP books.  The only editions that 
> exist are the first editions.
> 
> There are first PRINTINGS, and so forth.  All the books are first 
> editions.  Unless something is changed and the book is republished 
> after revision, they are all first editions.
> 
> It's been bothering me when I see people on eBay selling 
> Philosopher's Stone "first editions" for a lot of money.  Well, you 
> could sell a hardback you bought yesterday as a first edition 
because 
> it is one.  It's the first PRINTING that's valuable.
> 
> Thank, I'm glad I got that off my chest.  :-)
> 
> Lori




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov  9 23:57:39 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:57:39 -0000
Subject: More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
In-Reply-To: <3A0B1C2F.F7E15998@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ufdlj+38ga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5524

I'll check the French edition for the "time warp" problem when it 
arrives next month.  The French translator had the 
descendent/ancestor thing corrected in one of the earlier books.

Hat jemand die deutsche Edition von HP und der Feuerkelch schon 
gekauft?

-Jim Flanagan

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> 
> > In short, I still think this is just an internet rumor.
> 
> I think you're probably right. If it's been corrected in subsequent
> editions, can't we just check a subsequent edition? How about the
> translations, wouldn't they be from the most recent correct version?
> 
> --Amanda




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Nov 10 00:04:15 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:04:15 +0000
Subject: Ford Anglia equivalent
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001110000415.00a7df40@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5525

Lisa wrote:

>As for the Ford Anglia...does it have an equivalent American counterpart and
>name?  I saw a Hot Wheels size car that looked something like it but it was
>a 1955 Ford Crown Victoria.  I know that Fords of the same make and model
>have different names in England.  Like the Ford Fiesta or Escort was called
>the Ford Prefect (like Arthur Dent's Friend) in England.  Any idea about
>this, Neil?  I'm not a car buff but if there is an equivalent, I'd buy one.

**

I have to confess that I'm not a car buff either - I just pretend to be a
car, which is much less eccentric in my opinion.  

As far as I can tell the Ford Crown Victoria is a fairly modern car and
unrelated to the Ford Anglia.  I don't think there's an American name for
the Ford Anglia, but it could be "roller skate".  There seem to be two
types: the original Ford Anglia 101E (100E) was in production until the
early 60s and has a small, boxy body with rounded wings.  In the late 1950s,
a new body was designed and the Ford Anglia 105E was born: that was the more
familiar model with the pointy rear wings.  Ford continued to make the
previous Ford Anglia design until 1962, but renamed it the Ford Popular once
the 105E had been unleashed.  (In case you're all stunned by my insight into
British motoring history, be assured that I looked all this up).  

I recall with some discomfort that the Ford Anglia 105E was once voted "the
ugliest car ever", but as I always say, it's what's on the inside that
counts, and in Arthur's customised Ford Anglia there's a heck of a lot on
the inside, not to mention an extra knob or two.      

If anyone still awake is interested in the two-tone Lledo model car that
Nick mentioned in a previous post, below is a link to what I *guess* is a
picture of it.  Unfortunately, it's a model police car (and I'm old enough
to remember seeing these threatening law-enforcement vehicles on the roads),
but you could snap off the police bits and give it a coat of turquoise paint
and no one would be any the wiser.  

http://www.ragbone.com/shop/catalogue/lledo/vanguards/lancsanglia.html

PS.  Lisa, please post your pictures - I'd love to see them and I'm sure
others would.

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 00:25:07 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:25:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Joywitch's Daily Prophet
Message-ID: <20001110002507.17588.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5526

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> Joywitch: I love it, I love it, I love it!!!!  I sent it to all my
> friends who are HP-literate (but not HP-obsessed & on this listserve).
> I demand more excerpts . . . .
> 
> You're going to give Eggplant a run for her money, especially with the
> exorbitant rates she's charging for owl delivery.  35 galleons!  Crikey!
> 
> Penny
> 

With the talent on this list, we could make our own Daily (or Weekly or
Monthly) Prophet.  Maybe as a separate, newsletter-style list.  Any takers?
 

Melanie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Nov 10 01:07:13 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:07:13 -0700
Subject: JKR in Reader's Digest Dec 2000
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEDNCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5527

Joanne K. Rowling is on the cover of the December 2000 issue of Reader's
Digest, with a several page interview inside.  I speed-read it at my
parents' house, since I don't subscribe.  The only really new thing I
remember her saying is that she was outraged when one European country put
out the book with cover art showing Harry without his glasses.  She said
something like... "Don't they know his glasses are the key to his
vulnerability?"

Hmmmmm....

It's a nice article, but gives the impression that all the fans are
children.  No mention at all of the significant adult readership.




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 10 01:31:41 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:31:41 -0000
Subject: Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <8ue4g9+mcne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ufj5t+mr2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5528

> Do you think he'll ever get a more crucial role?

I'm convinced that Peeves will have a crucial role in the upcoming 
books based on the information in PS/SS: He's only scared/able to be 
controlled br the Bloody Baron, the Slytherin ghost.

WHY?!

I've got no idea how or why, but I'm sure that JKR wouldn't have told 
us this if it wasn't an important point for a later book. Or maybe it 
was just a meaningless plot device so that Harry could escape from 
Peeves by telling Peeves that he's the Bloody Baron ;) But I doubt it.

--> Sam





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 01:42:47 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:42:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 3
References: <8uda43+7ueu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B5297.4AEEC4F8@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5529

You have to remember the functions of the shields, too.  These are simply
temporary paintings decorating the hallway where people wait in line.  There
were other paintings that seemed pretty good to me; I might go back and take
a few more as samples (liked the one of Scabbers particularly).  But I
imagine that the designers were primarily concentrating on the show inside
the auditorium the most.

I do intend to go back to get more closeups.  When I went back through last
night, I noticed that they had put more spotlights in, illuminating more of
the faces.

Scott wrote:

> >
> > My only complaint is the design of the House shields. Argh. Clearly
> designed
> > by someone who has seen lots of modern sports logos, and very
> little old
> > heraldry. Ugh.
> >
> > Thanks, Peg!
> >
> > --Amanda
>
> I thought this too Amanda!  But maybe they will do a better job w/
> the shields for the movie (doubt it though, I'm being quite critical
> tonight.)
>
> Scott
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 01:42:09 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:42:09 -0000
Subject: JKR in Reader's Digest Dec 2000
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEDNCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8ufjph+qib2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5530

She said
> something like... "Don't they know his glasses are the key to his
> vulnerability?"
> 
> Hmmmmm....

Well the most obvious explanation for something like this is that he 
can't see w/out his glasses (couldn't he get contacts though? Or 
magically fix his eyes? I mean if Hermione could change her teeth...)

Also maybe she was just mad that yet another group of Harry artists 
were gits who hadn't even read the books!  That is certainly possible!

Scott





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 01:58:09 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:58:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story
References: <8ue4g9+mcne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B5631.FAE0577@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5531

I was thinking specifically of the end of Chapter 8 in PoA, where he gets
the last word: "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."  It was that
assessment of Sirius that resonated for me through most of the book, that
colored everything I read about Sirius' movements, that made me "go along"
with the popular opinion that Sirius was a villain--an impression which was
totally overturned by the surprise twist in the Shrieking Shack.

I had understood that one role the Greek Chorus plays is to be sort of the
voice of popular opinion, reacting to the actions of the hero.  Peeves plays
that role, here, with his assessment of Black, and also in the Chamber of
Secrets (Oh Potter, you rotter!)

Of course, I am operating on a hazy memory of my notes taken while studying
Greek tragedy in school a number of years ago (not to mention my fascination
with Anouilh's _Antigone_)

Peg

Blaise wrote:

> Peg wrote:
>
> "Hmm.  You know, now that I think about it, I cannot remember seeing
> more than a couple of messages on this list EVER about Peeves, which
> seems strange since we tend to discuss everything exhaustively.  And
> yet, when you think about it, he does appear in an awful lot of
> scenes.
>
> What function does he serve in the story?  The Greek chorus?"
>
> You baited your hook well to catch a classicist!
>
> What do you mean by the Greek chorus?  In tragedy, the chorus was
> there to provide some comment on what was happening, or to give some
> information to the audience, or perhaps to express the poet's
> viewpoint (different tragedians used the chorus differently).  They
> rarely played a part in the way the story fell out, except sometimes
> when the Leader of the Chorus would be involved in dialogues.
>
> Mostly, he seems to be there for background colour.  He hasn't played
> an important part in any of the plots (unless I'm forgetting
> something), and he seems to be another of the obstacles that HHR must
> get around, particularly when they're breaking rules (c.f. in PS when
> they go out under the invisibility cloak and Hermione pretends to be
> teh Bloody Baron to get him to go away, and many other incidents).
>
> I don't think he's a Greek chorus, though he does sometimes play a
> similar role, as when he makes up little songs to sing about how
> Harry is the heir of Slytherin etc, in CoS, which keep the events in
> everyone's minds.  He certainly is not only an observer of the events
> who makes moral and social comment on what is going on.  And I very
> much doubt that at the end he'll get a little speech saying 'life's
> like that, you know' the way the chorus always does at the end of a
> tragedy!
>
> So what is he if he's not a Chorus?  I think he provides comic
> relief, bathos at moments of tension and an obstacle for HHR to get
> around.  Do you think he'll ever get a more crucial role than this?
>
> -Blaise.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 02:00:25 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:00:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story
References: <8ue78f+gl12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B56B8.959AE1A2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5532

Jim Flanagan wrote:

>  It might be an
> interesting exercise to go through all the "Peeves" scenes in the
> books and analyze.
>

yeah--but not me!  I'm still trying to extricate myself from this posting
pictures business so I can get back to the 7 Heavenly Virtues.

Peg




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Nov 10 02:09:32 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:09:32 -0800
Subject: The Daily Profit (Political but Harryesque)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEDNCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001109175855.00c17ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5533

Well, the latest news is as follows:

There are still a mass of FL absentee ballots yet to be received, largely
from overseas fans of the Isrealli Quidditch Team.

The Slytherins intend to demand recounts in Iowa and Wisconsin and
a possible lawsuit in Missouri, where Muggles were allowed to vote
two hours after the Wizard polls closed.

Charges are surfacing that Florida Slytherins may have intimidated
Muggle-borns to keep them from voting.

The "Butterfly Ballots" may have been illegal.  (Florida law requires
that ballots be structured to resemble a Blast-Ended Skrewt.)



                                                 -- Dave




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 02:15:24 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:15:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Welcome to Gwen
References: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B5A3C.7C5A70A0@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5534



"Brandgwen G." wrote:

> Quick note: there's speculation in the last paragraph.

No response in particular (my email inbox has over a hundred messages, and so
I'm just breezing through) but just wanted to say I am very impressed with your
posts I have seen thus far (I particularly was struck by your pointing out that
Ron, unlike Harry, didn't allow himself to become obsessed by the Mirror of
Erised; hadn't thought of that before) and am eager to hear more of your
opinions and glad to welcome you to our group

(And for all you others out there who have simply been lurking up until now,
don't be shy.  Jump in, introduce yourself, and get involved in a conversation;
the water's fine!)

Cheers,
Peg




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Nov 10 02:14:44 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:14:44 -0000
Subject: Joywitch's Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <20001110002507.17588.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8uflmk+nl4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5535

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Melanie Moore <ravenclawlady at y...> 
wrote:

> With the talent on this list, we could make our own Daily (or 
Weekly or
> Monthly) Prophet.  Maybe as a separate, newsletter-style list.  Any 
takers?
>  
Your intrepid Washington correspondant, Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, is 
ready and willing.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 02:20:28 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:20:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves' function in the story
References: <8ueqe2+630a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0B5B6C.212C3EF3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5536

That's a really cool idea, Neil, and the anagram is certainly suggestive.  I
like it.

Peg

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

> Peeves:-
>
> A while back I posted a theory about Peeves which was, admittedly, a
> bit bizarre.  No one commented on it at the time, probably because it
> was buried in one of my unwise "Dumbledore's bad streak" posts, so
> I'll repeat it:
>
> Knowing JKR's fondness for wordplay in the naming of characters, I
> find it interesting that "Pensieve" is an anagram of "In Peeves" and
> wonder whether Peeves is a personification of Dumbledore's spare
> thoughts, a bit like an id.  IMO, it would explain how Dumbledore
> manages to keep such a close eye on things without roaming around
> Hogwarts himself, and we know that Dumbledore has a mischievous,
> adolescent vein in his personality.
>
> So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on
> the unsuspecting students?
>
> Neil
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 02:57:22 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:57:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanart
References: <000801c04a80$9012e2c0$1c383ccc@krass>
Message-ID: <3A0B6412.ECA98900@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5537



Lisa Rourke wrote:

> On the subject of Fanart, I was wondering if it's ok to post some artwork of
> mine to the groups fanart files.

As I understand the rules, any of our members may post, so go right ahead. (Yes,
Penny?)

Peg




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Nov 10 02:59:58 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:59:58 -0000
Subject: Translations?
In-Reply-To: <3A0B1C2F.F7E15998@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ufobe+pqt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5538

I recently saw a news item saying that the HP books have been 
translated into over 30 languages. We only have about 24 or so 
different languages represented in our collection.  Can anyone point 
me to a comprehensive list of HP versions (languages) to help focus 
the search for more cover art?

Thanks,
Jim Flanagan




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Nov 10 02:56:37 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:56:37 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanart
References: <000801c04a80$9012e2c0$1c383ccc@krass> <3A0B6412.ECA98900@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A0B63E5.48992886@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5539

Hi --

Peg Kerr wrote:

> Lisa Rourke wrote:
>
> > On the subject of Fanart, I was wondering if it's ok to post some
> artwork of
> > mine to the groups fanart files.
>
> As I understand the rules, any of our members may post, so go right
> ahead. (Yes, Penny?)

Yes!!  Sorry -- I missed the original question it seems.  Yes, all
members can upload fan-art, casting photos, etc. to the Files section.
Just don't upload any mp3 or napster files -- illegal.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Nov 10 03:30:37 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:30:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)
References: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com> <3A0A1613.B986D7C1@texas.net> <3A0AB356.36881DCB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c04ac6$987eca00$7cc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5540


----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:23 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)


> Hi --
>
> I agree that Bush is not evil incarnate.  He does not appear to be an
> unreasonably intolerant individual.  But, his *individual* views won't
> really count for much.  I am, and will remain, very very concerned about
> the composition of the Supreme Court.  I think it's safe to say that any
> appointments made by Dubya will be individuals with a conservative
> jurist background (whether he employs an abortion rights "litmus test"
> or not).  It would not take very many arch-conservative appointees in
> the ilk of Scalia and Thomas to tilt the Court to the far right of
> overall American opinion.  Supreme Court appointees have a knack of
> sometimes surprising their appointers (I believe Brennan or Marshall or
> both were appointed by Eisenhower for example).  IMO, we can only hope
> that this will prove true of any Dubya appointees

Perhaps those interested in debating the merits of Bush and  Gore - who,
last time I checked, do not appear as characters in any of JKR's writings -
could repair themselves to one of the many fine newsgroups expressly
designated as forums for political discussions (e.g.,
alt.elections.politics), and reserve this forum for the discussion of Harry
Potter.

You may interested in reading what a prominent conservative columnist
recently wrote concerning HP might check out this link (the views expressed
may differ from the boggart-like caricature of conservatism that so many of
our regular posters on this network seem to rejoice in)

    - CMC

Better to encourage imagination

By Charley Reese
Commentary

Published in The Orlando Sentinel on October 29, 2000

I finally did it. I read a Harry Potter book, Harry Potter and the Goblet of
Fire. If my children were still young, I'd encourage them to read those
books.

Some people have objected because the characters are wizards and witches.
Well?

The characters in Winnie the Pooh are stuffed animals that move and talk.
The characters in Treasure Island are pirates.

R.K. Rowling is not the writer that C.S. Lewis and his friend J.R.R. Tolkien
were, but then few writers are. Nevertheless she has created an interesting
set of characters and spins a good adventure yarn. I can understand why kids
enjoy her books.

Harry is, in many respects, an ordinary boy, but when the crisis comes, he
displays bravery and loyalty to his friends. There is a clear line between
good and evil, and the author attaches no religious overtones to anything in
her story.

The fact that Harry is attending a school for wizards in a world hidden from
the eyes of humans, or Muggles, as they are called, just adds to the fun.
Rowling is creating a separate world for her characters, just as Lewis did
in his Narnia stories.

When the children in Lewis's Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe pass through
the magic portal, they find themselves in a world where an evil witch has
created perpetual winter, turned her enemies into stone, and where animals
talk.

Imaginative literature is important for a child, in my opinion, especially
these days when so much written for children is dreary pseudo-realism and
nihilistic. Heroic characters teach children that there are some things more
important than creature comforts and that some things are more important
than life itself.

It especially surprises me that Christians would object to the Potter books.
Christianity itself is full of what an atheist would call magic -- walking
on water, healing terminal illnesses with the touch of a hand, resurrecting
the dead, feeding the multitude with only 12 fish, dying and coming back to
life.

I would offer this advice: If you hope your child's faith will survive the
continuous battering from the secular world, then you had better encourage
the imagination of your children, and there is no better way to do that than
by encouraging them to read good literature. Imagination seems to me a
crucial component of faith. If we cannot visualize what is invisible to our
eyes, then we will have a harder time sustaining our belief, especially in
these bleak times.

Television, movies and computer games kill the imagination. (Some argue that
they can kill the soul.) Everything is supplied, and all the viewer does is
turn down his brain to the passive level.

Reading, on the other hand, requires an active brain. The reader becomes the
casting director, supplies the set, the costumes and the props, as well as
the scenery. A good fantasy or science-fiction story can take you out of
your ordinary world so that when you return, you will see it in a slightly
different way. And if they can't see their world in a slightly different way
than the secularists see it, Christians will lose their faith.

The Harry Potter books ought to encourage children to read Lewis's wonderful
Chronicles of Narnia, and when they are older, Tolkien's The Hobbit and the
magnificent trilogy Lord of the Rings.

Literature can teach either vices or virtue. There's no question that
parents should supervise their younger children's reading. Unfortunately you
can no longer trust either the judgment or tastes of government schools and
certainly not that of the entertainment industry.

Better for children to read about wizards fighting evil than to grow up
believing that nothing is worth fighting for.

CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Nov 10 03:53:33 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:53:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New question
References: <20001108185547.15534.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A09B213.3BACBB52@texas.net>
Message-ID: <007b01c04ac9$ccc02400$7cc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5541


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 3:05 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New question


> I have a "what's your take" question for everyone, that I'm not sure I'll
word correctly, but here goes. Do these books glorify rule-breaking? By that
I
> mean the attitude that rules are fine unless you need to ignore them, and
you get to decide when that is, and the end justifies the means? Kind of
like my
> dad, who seemed sometimes to believe in rules in theory but not in
practice. It just
> occurred to me that this was a possible interpretation, and as this is the
first possibly negative meta-message I've detected in these books, I
wondered
> what you all thought.


In all things moderation:  JKR certainly makes mock of Percy Weasley, who
adheres to every jot and tittle of the rules, no matter how minor.  His
greatest agony seems to have been when he was found kissing his girlfriend
while on duty.  OTOH, we have Voldemort who (as late Frank Bryce noted)
speaks of cold-blooded murder without remorse, even with amusement. We
certainly love Hermione all the more when she bends the rules now and
again - and who would want her turning into a female version of Percy?

Harry occupies the sensible middle ground (just as most of us do: I'm sure
there are many instances for all of us where we honor certain cherished
principles more in the breech than in the observance).  But it seems to me
that the rules which Harry breaks generally seem pretty arbritrary in
nature - like third-years not being able to visit Hogsmeade without a
permission slip from their parent/guardian, or using magic on summer break -
whereas he adheres admirably to the more exacting demands of morality and
honor.

    - CMC






From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Nov 10 03:40:50 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:40:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)
References: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com> <3A0A1613.B986D7C1@texas.net> <3A0AB356.36881DCB@swbell.net> <001c01c04ac6$987eca00$7cc54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <3A0B6E42.1CE01382@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5542

Hi --

> Perhaps those interested in debating the merits of Bush and  Gore -
> who,
> last time I checked, do not appear as characters in any of JKR's
> writings - could repair themselves to one of the many fine newsgroups
> expressly
> designated as forums for political discussions
> (e.g.,alt.elections.politics), and reserve this forum for the
> discussion of Harry Potter.

I think book-banning *is* on-topic in any case, since HP is so
frequently banned or threatened with banning.  IMO, book-banning
involves at least tangential discussion of politics & the Supreme Court.

You may have missed the message that I put out on Wed morning.
Off-topic political discussions are fine *for the time being* as long as
the subject heading is clearly labelled & noone's views are attacked in
a personal manner (well, their views shouldn't be *attacked* in any
case).  My subject heading that led to your above message is very
clearly labelled OT.  If you don't wish to read it, you are certainly
free to skip it.

I don't think we've been overwhelmed with political messages, and
everyone has been very good about labelling their subject headings.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Nov 10 04:24:48 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:24:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)
References: <8ucum2+ei3u@eGroups.com> <3A0A1613.B986D7C1@texas.net> <3A0AB356.36881DCB@swbell.net> <001c01c04ac6$987eca00$7cc54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <018201c04ace$2a4d47c0$7cc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5543


----- Original Message -----
From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)



>
> Perhaps those interested in debating the merits of Bush and  Gore - who,
> last time I checked, do not appear as characters in any of JKR's
writings -
> could repair themselves to one of the many fine newsgroups expressly
> designated as forums for political discussions (e.g.,
> alt.elections.politics), and reserve this forum for the discussion of
Harry
> Potter.

But as long as we're waxing simultaneously literary and political, here's a
passage from another British writer of some renown, which seemingly offers
some comment on Campaign 2000: (I thank Bookburn, of the newsgroup
humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare for bringing this passage to my
attention)

    - CMC

The Merchant of Venice
Act 3, Scene 2

PORTIA I pray you, tarry: pause a day or two
Before you hazard; for, in choosing wrong,
I lose your company: therefore forbear awhile.
There's something tells me, but it is not love,
I would not lose you; and you know yourself,
Hate counsels not in such a quality.
But lest you should not understand me well,--
And yet a maiden hath no tongue but thought,--
I would detain you here some month or two
Before you venture for me. I could teach you
How to choose right, but I am then forsworn;
So will I never be: so may you miss me;
But if you do, you'll make me wish a sin,
That I had been forsworn. Beshrew your eyes,
They have o'erlook'd me and divided me;
One half of me is yours, the other half yours,
Mine own, I would say; but if mine, then yours,
And so all yours. O, these naughty times
Put bars between the owners and their rights!
And so, though yours, not yours. Prove it so,
Let fortune go to hell for it, not I.
I speak too long; but 'tis to peize the time,
To eke it and to draw it out in length,
To stay you from ELECTION.





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 10 04:42:55 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:42:55 -0600
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 4
Message-ID: <3A0B7CCE.D248DB49@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5544

You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

Next picture:
Dark.  Same scene.  Asian girl to one side of Quirrell, watching Harry
overhead.  I suspect she is meant to be Cho Chang.  Has long hair
braided in the back. [Note: There is another spectator in this scene, a
black boy I suspect is meant to be Dean Thomas (in the American version,
Dean is described in the Sorting Scene as being black).  I didn't
attempt a picture of him as I suspected the lighting was too dark. I'll
check back to see if they have put up additional lines.  He is in the
next scene, too, where Harry gets the Nimbus 2000; again, I thought the
light was too dim to capture a good picture of him.]

Next picture:
Dark.  Owls delivering Nimbus 2000.

Next picture:
Harry reads Prof. McGonagall's letter that comes with the Nimbus 2000.

Next picture:
Ron opens his presents Christmas morning.

Next:
Dark.  Harry and the Invisibility Cloak.  This was one of the show's
coolest illusions.  What you see is actually a reflection in a two-way
mirror set at a 45 degree angle; the actual figurine of Harry is hidden
out of sight by a curtain and a spotlight is trained on him so he
appears in the mirror.  As Harry raises the shimmery silver Invisibility
Cloak, the light goes off the figure of Harry and instead shines behind
the mirror, showing an empty room, so it looks as though he disappears!

Next picture:
(NOT POSTED; too dark and blurred)  Professor McGonagall and Dumbledore,
with their Christmas cracker fantastical hats on their heads, raise wine
glasses in a christmas toast.

Next picture:
Harry and Ron, wearing their Weasley Christmas sweaters (jumpers), play
wizard chess.  Two of the chess pieces move on the chess board by
themselves.  Harry wears his Christmas cracker hat (shaped like an
Admiral's hat).  Dumbledore and McGonagall are in the background out of
the frame of the picture, toasting Christmas.

Next picture:
(SKIPPED) A book in the restricted section of the library shrieks when
it is opened.

Next picture:
Snape, drawn by the alarm of the screaming book that Harry had opened in
the Restricted section of the library, searches a school corridor.
Filch is beside him, out of the frame; Harry is hiding around the
corner.

Next picture:
Harry waits around the corner, terrified, to see if Filch or Snape will
find him (of course, in the book at this point, Harry is wearing the
cloak).

Next picture:
VERY blurry.  Hermione discovers the reference to Nicholas Flamel in a
book she had taken out of the library for "light reading."  You can't
see it, but Harry is holding the Dumbledore card he'd gotten from a
chocolate frog.

Next picture:
Harry and the Mirror of Erised. Again, this was done with a two-way
mirror. First the light shines on Harry, looking into the mirror with an
anguished look on his face . . .

Next picture:
And then the light shines inside the mirror, and we see James and Lily.

Next picture:
Snape confronts Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest.  Harry overhears
everything from his broom overhead.  (I took a picture of Harry, too,
but it was too dark to turn out.)

Next picture:
Filch catches Harry and Hermione at the foot of the tower stairs after
they have delivered Norbert to Charlie's friends (see them flying away
in background).

Next picture:
Same scene.  Harry and Hermione, caught by Filch.

Next picture:
Same scene. Filch closeup.

Next picture:
(SKIPPED, too dark).  Forbidden Forest.  Harry, Hermione, Hagrid and
Neville examine silvery unicorn blood on the ground. Draco stands to the
side, looking arrogant and bored.

Next picture:
Firenze in the Forbidden Forest.

Next picture:
Harry, driven to his knees by the pain in his scar, looks up and sees
Firenze.

Next picture:
(Too dark and blurry, skipped).  Hermione plays Fluffy a lullaby.

Next picture:
Harry and Ron fight to disentangle themselves from the Devil's Snare.

Next picture:
Harry, on his broom, struggles to capture the winged key.

Next picture:
Blurry.  Ron is knocked out by a buffet from the arm of the White Queen.

Next picture:
Hermione deciphers the puzzle and drinks one of the potions (blurry
because Hermione was moving to swig the potion back).

Next picture:
Blurry.  Harry looks at his reflection in the Mirror of Erised as
Quirrell lunges at him.

Next:
Harry, in his hospital bed, turns the pictures of the photo album that
Hagrid has given him.  (There are various candy boxes scattered around
with "Honeydukes" on the lids.

Next:
Same scene, close up of Harry.  Note the photographs of James and Lily.
These were polaroids, probably taken of the James and Lily figures used
in the Mirror of Erised scene.

Next:
Harry and Ron hoist Neville on their shoulders as Hermione and
Dumbledore look on.  Gryffindor has won the House cup!

Last picture:
Portrait of Harry over the exit.  Hope you enjoyed the show!

Cheers,
Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 06:46:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:46:44 -0000
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3A09333C.1BEEA862@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8ug5kk+nq1f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5545

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:

Thank you for the first hand reports from Epicenter, Florida (and 
thanks to Ebony for the second hand reports, and to everyone for the 
reports from where they are.)

This is such an outrageously weird thing: no one won the electoral 
college while losing the popular vote since Benjamin Harrison in 
1888: it never happened in the whole 1900s century.

> But one thing this should do - it should convince EVERY SINGLE
> PERSON in this country of voting age that YOUR VOTE REALLY DOES 
> COUNT.

NO. *MY* vote didn't count. My best friend Lee told her husband, me, 
and anyone else who values her good will that if we didn't vote for 
Gore and then Gore didn't carry California, she would NEVER forgive 
us. Gore carried California by a comfortable margin, enough that he 
would still have carried California if I had voted for Nader (for 
whom I voted in 1996, not afraid of Lee's threat to never forgive me 
because the LA WEEKLY was So Confident that Clinton would win) and 
Barry had voted for Harry Browne (the Libertarian). 

Speaking of people who blame Nader: what state did Bush carry because 
people who would usually have voted for Gore voted for Nader (remember 
that a lot of people who voted for Nader otherwise would not have 
voted at all)? There were a lot of Nader votes in Wiconsin (all around 
UW-Milwaukee) but Gore carried Wisconsin, right?

It's all because of the Electoral College. The candidate who wins in 
California gets California's 54 electoral votes regardless whether he 
won with less than a majority (in a more than 2-way race), or won by 
50% plus one vote in a 2-way rac, or won by 99.99% of the vote, so 
all California's Gore votes above 50% plus one didn't count.

It's all because of the Electoral College. If the candidate who got 
the majority of the popular vote nationwide won, then Gore would be 
the winner and not quite 2000 votes in Florida wouldn't matter. But 
the narrow margin decides ALL 25 of Florida's electoral votes, and 
the rest of the electoral votes are evenly enough split that 25 more 
votes make the winner.

This might encourage people to circulate petitions to amend the 
Constitution to scrap the Electoral College or at least split each 
state's electoral votes according to the split of its popular vote, 
and the congresscritters MIGHT be angry enough at this current mess 
to pass such an amendment, but then it has to be ratified by (3/4 
IIRC) of the states, and that won't happen.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 06:51:49 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:51:49 -0000
Subject: And the winner is George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <8uc6ri+v184@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ug5u5+96hb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5546

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... (Dave) wrote:
> Let's be clear it has become a battle of the lesser of two 
> weasels, neither person running for president has the character 
> I expect from a friend, definetly not for President of the US. 

I read Gore's book and I've listened to some of his speeches and a 
lot of his sound bites on the radio, and I can't get over thinking 
that I WOULD like him as a friend -- assuming that he would put with 
a friend who keeps nagging him about why he doesn't DO what he 
wrote in his book, and asking him how can he live with his conscience 
after helping the pharmeceutical companies (chutzpah = Gore claiming 
that he will fight for us against Big Pharmeceuticals) to illegally 
deprive South Africa of AIDS drugs.

> Neither will kill us and I hope if Gore loses he wont take his 
> invention (the internet) away, because I love reading all the 
> posts. 

C'mon, do you trust everything you read in the paper? Gore didn't 
claim to have invented the Internet, he merely pointed out that he 
had pushed the bill in Congress for us taxpayers to pay computer 
scientists to invent the Internet.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 06:54:25 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:54:25 -0000
Subject: (snip)  / Harry, Duplo and childrens toys
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPGCLAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8ug631+uhoh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5547

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon J. Branford" 
<simon.branford at h...> wrote:

> Children's toys rule. Now do we get onto Lego about making Harry 
> Potter sets?

Lego has already, for years, been making sets with an evil wizard 
knight and his castle and an evil witch and her castle. If that 
series had also included a princess with a unicorn she can ride, I 
would have bought it for my goddessdaughter.






From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 06:58:47 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:58:47 -0000
Subject: Hot off the Presses (Political but not OT)
In-Reply-To: <8ucjkr+pde1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ug6b7+2j2l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5548

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> THE DAILY PROPHET
> 
> by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, D.P.'s Washington correspondent
> 
> SALEM, MA, Nov. 7 ? U.S. Minister of Magic Ralph Q. Hedge (snip)
> a particularly large step backwards in time, without even using a 
> time-turner."   

> Dissenting voices include Muggle Affairs Directorate (MAD) Chairman 
> Jack Weasley. (snip)
> 
> Not everyone is dismayed by the results of the muggle election. 
> Jim-Bob Malfoy, the Texas wizard oil baron and president of the 
> Slytherin Society (snip)

> due to the current OUTRAGEOUS price of 35 galleons for owl delivery 
> of the Daily Prophet.  The author urges readers to express their 
> concern over the high price to D.P. marketing manager E. Eggplant, 
> who must be feeding his owls caviar to justify this high price.

I LOVE IT! Maybe I should apologize for including so much of 
Joywitch's post in my post, but those are the parts that I couldn't 
bear to snip out!





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 07:05:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:05:26 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
In-Reply-To: <F155pkNzPZrIkyPzGNs00000034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ug6nm+mdlv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5549

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brandgwen G." <brandgwen at h...> 
wrote:

One hell of a good, thoughtful post.

> This really highlights one of the major differences between Harry's
> friends and James' (not to mention Harry and James).  The Maruaders
> a world where people were going Dark Side all the time. Friendships
> where not set in the same kind of stone and very few people were
> beyond reproach. 

Yes, but.... The Marauders at school could spend their time on 
practical jokes a la Fred and George, becoming Animagi for totally 
non-political reasons, mapping the school for the sake of sneaking 
out to have fun. They didn't spend their school days saving the 
world. They didn't tangle with Voldemort and the Death Eaters until 
after they left school. 

Harry was a year and a half old when he defeated V and lost his 
parents. Dumbledore referred to the bad times as 'these eleven 
years'. Unless Harry's parent had been out of school already ten 
years by the time he was born, the bad times overlapped the 
Marauders' school days.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 07:24:39 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:24:39 -0000
Subject: Wizard Politics (was Re: (OT) George "Dubya" Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <8ud9rm+7tmk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ug7rn+lf7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5550

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

> Also a thought about Wizard Politics...I know it probably isn't the 
> most likely but couldn't it be possible that the MoM is a ministry 
> (dept.) of an international Wizard Government (similar to the UN, 
> in a way...) and that the Warlocks are the governing body (like 
> Parliament or Congress).  Each country's Ministry is a segment of 
> that one gov.'t....Does that make sense at all???

I made some notes... in SS, Dumbledore's letterhead identifies him as 
a member of International Confed. of Wizards. In CoS, the letter 
threatening Harry for underage magic refers to Section 13 of the 
International Confederation of Warlocks' Statute of Secrecy. PoA, 
page 33 of UK paperback refers to International Federation of 
Wizards. I haven't made notes on GoF yet. 

Are these three different organizations, or one organization and the 
proofreader isn't good at remembering its correct name? (There is 
real life (tm) precedent: I work for MTA, Metropolitan Transportation 
Authority, but two-thirds of the time both employees and the media 
say Metropolitan Transit Authority by mistake.) Lori has this 
organization as a wizarding world government in PoU.

My notes also say: SS says dragon breeding was outlawed by Warlocks 
Convention of 1709 (and Dumbledore's letterhead says he is Chf. 
Warlock, Chf. of what is not clear). In CoS,, Ron says that his 
father is overburdened with work as, in the office there is only 
him and an old warlock named Perkins. There is a reference to the 
International Warlock Convention of 1289, and one of the boys says he 
comes from nine generations of witches and warlocks. PoA, page 42 of 
UK paperback says 'wild-looking warlocks' and page 149 says 'a bunch 
of rowdy warlocks'.

I used to like the idea that in HP universe, 'warlock' means an 
elected representative, therefore can be either witch or wizard. Chf. 
Warlock is prestigeous enough to be listed on the Headmaster's 
letterhead, and electec representatives are perfectly capable of 
getting rowdy in a bar. I can fantasize that Perkins being 'an old 
warlock' implies that he is useless at the job because he was given 
it as a retirement (defeat) gift by his old colleagues. But I can't 
fit 'nine generations of witches and warlocks' into that theory 
except by claiming that it was a typo.

Btw, PoA page 181 refers to "Professor Vector, the Arithmancy witch". 
 

  




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 10 07:30:46 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:30:46 -0000
Subject: Sirius (was" Peeves' function in the story
In-Reply-To: <3A0B5631.FAE0577@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ug876+ictc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5551

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> I was thinking specifically of the end of Chapter 8 in PoA, where 
> he gets he last word: "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black." 
> It was that assessment of Sirius that resonated for me through most
> of the book, 

Not that long ago, someone asked rhetorically, who would have 
guessed at the beginning of PoA that Sirius is actually the hero? 
And at that time, I didn't get around to answering, but when Tim 
was first listening to the tape of GoF, he was listening to Chapter 
Three or wherever it is that Harry first finds out that the 
wizarding world is also scared of that Sirius Black that he heard 
about on Muggle TV, Tim turned to me and said: "He's a good guy." I 
would have fallen out of my seat if I hadn't been wearing my 
seat belt, and I gasped: "How did you know?" before I realised that 
that phraseology was a SPOILER and changed it to 'What makes you 
think he didn't kill all those people?"

and Tim said: "I don't know whether he killed all those people, but 
I know that he is going to be revealed as a good guy, because Rowling 
has gone to so much effort to paint him as a monstrous villain."





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Nov 10 09:27:43 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:27:43 -0000
Subject: Translations
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEBLCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5552

Jim wrote: "I recently saw a news item saying that the HP books have been
translated into over 30 languages. We only have about 24 or so different
languages represented in our collection.  Can anyone point me to a
comprehensive list of HP versions (languages) to help focus the search for
more cover art?"

http://www.jkrowling.com

Gives the publishers for the HP books in about 30 countries. It does not
seem to have been updated recently but may have the information you require.
Some of the publishers have websites listed as well - which maybe helpful if
you can understand all the different languages.

Simon




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Fri Nov 10 11:16:20 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:16:20 EST
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?New=20idea=20on=20why=20Remus=20didn't=20transform=20i?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=20PoA?=
Message-ID: <6a.853dc0c.273d3304@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5553



Check out Experimental Medicine on FanFic by Moon (one half of the Wolfie 
Twins). I loved her Cub Scout stories.   She's also infamous as the author of 
the hysterically funny Mary Sue, The Fic That Must Not Be Named. Moon has 
come up with an answer as to why Remus didn't transform on the full moon 
until he'd left the Shrieking Shack in Prisoner of Azkaban....

Hope this URL works: <
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=109343>

<A 
HREF="http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=109343">
ExpMed2.htm</A>

Aylihael
(who has received at least one good, though racy, Gore /Bush vignette. 
E-mail me privately and I'll send it on!)



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 11:54:35 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 03:54:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Politics (OT)
Message-ID: <20001110115435.20364.qmail@web219.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5554


--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> > Perhaps those interested in debating the merits of
> Bush and  Gore -
> > who,
> > last time I checked, do not appear as characters
> in any of JKR's
> > writings - could repair themselves to one of the
> many fine newsgroups
> > expressly
> > designated as forums for political discussions
> > (e.g.,alt.elections.politics), and reserve this
> forum for the
> > discussion of Harry Potter.
> 
> I think book-banning *is* on-topic in any case,
> since HP is so
> frequently banned or threatened with banning.  IMO,
> book-banning
> involves at least tangential discussion of politics
> & the Supreme Court.
> 
> You may have missed the message that I put out on
> Wed morning.
> Off-topic political discussions are fine *for the
> time being* as long as
> the subject heading is clearly labelled & noone's
> views are attacked in
> a personal manner (well, their views shouldn't be
> *attacked* in any
> case).  My subject heading that led to your above
> message is very
> clearly labelled OT.  If you don't wish to read it,
> you are certainly
> free to skip it.
> 
> I don't think we've been overwhelmed with political
> messages, and
> everyone has been very good about labelling their
> subject headings.
> 
> Penny
> 
Thanks, Penny, for allowing this thread of posts on
the elections to continue for now. As a Canadian, it
has been very interesting to hear everyone's views on
what has been going on. It's also been much more
informative than some of our news broadcasts. With our
own elections coming up for Prime Minister (Nov. 27),
it has reinforced the importance of voting. Even
though I like none of our candidates, my vote could
help keep one of the worst out of office (though I'm
still in favour of a RON vote!).

Sheryll

P.S. I'm getting rather good at reading the subject
lines and deciding which posts are subjects I'm
interested in - really cuts back the e-mail reading
time, especially on this old computer. (though I'm
occasionally afraid I might miss something good if I
skip any posts!).

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 10 13:55:40 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:55:40 -0000
Subject: Fic Announcement
Message-ID: <8uguos+d3tu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5555

Just to tell everyone who's interested that I have at long last 
finished another piece of fanfiction (mainly by working very hard 
last night).  It's called 'The Wolfsbane Potion,' but it's actually 
more about Snape than Lupin, and it's set during PoA.  It is my own 
answer to the question of why Lupin didn't transform at moonrise in 
PoA.  Anyway, you can find it at:  

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=109904

It's a very long piece (12000 words), so read it when you've got lots 
of time.  And if anyone finds any glaring errors please tell me.  I 
hope you enjoy it!  

-Blaise.    




From ara_kel at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 16:54:35 2000
From: ara_kel at yahoo.com (Sarah Rettger)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:54:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Peeves
Message-ID: <20001110165435.17774.qmail@web1503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5556

I really like this suggestion, Neil, mainly because it
keeps with the idea of what a poltergeist is supposed
to be.  According to poltergeist "experts", these are
not true ghosts, but the manifestations of excess
energy, especially from disturbed teenagers.  Your
theory fits perfectly with that.  Love it!

Sarah




Knowing JKR's fondness for wordplay in the naming of
characters, I 
find it interesting that "Pensieve" is an anagram of
"In Peeves" and 
wonder whether Peeves is a personification of
Dumbledore's spare 
thoughts, a bit like an id.  IMO, it would explain how
Dumbledore 
manages to keep such a close eye on things without
roaming around 
Hogwarts himself, and we know that Dumbledore has a
mischievous, 
adolescent vein in his personality.

So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner
teenager let loose on 
the unsuspecting students?



=====
Don't refuse to go on an occasional wild goose chase.  That's what wild geese are for. -- Anon.

One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. -- A. A. Milne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov 10 16:58:16 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:58:16 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Politics (was Re: (OT) George "Dubya"  Voldemort
References: <8ug7rn+lf7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0C2927.2A66CB37@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5557

Rita Winston wrote:

> I used to like the idea that in HP universe, 'warlock' means an
> elected representative, therefore can be either witch or wizard.

Can't remember the page, but one of the client endorsements on Filch's
magic-by-mail course is listed as "warlock," which seems to jar with the
notion that they're elected....

I remember going "damn!" when I noticed that, because I liked the way we'd
figured it out. Poop. Perhaps it's like Latino, hispanic, etc., which have
slight variations of meaning but are often used interchangeably.

--Amanda




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Nov  9 23:14:42 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:14:42 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book printings
References: <3A0B01CB.5EAD9F64@swbell.net> <017101c04a90$d3fb9440$225e073e@oemcomputer> <v04220801b630c909aac3@[128.146.20.114]> <3A0B1DE5.12455E86@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <000601c04b44$4bbfe360$226e883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 5558

Lori Summers Wrote

> > There are NO second editions of HP books.  The only editions that
> > exist are the first editions.

In the UK we avoid this problem by refering to first editions and reprints.
eg 2nd reprint, 3rd reprint or when there are many reprints '65 reprint. I
collect many books on the 2nd hand market not just HP and I would expect  it
to say revised followed by a date if there was any alteration, editing etc.
As far as HP goes doesn't the value also depend on whether the bnook wa
spublished in ST Ives or Glasgow or is that just the luxury ed of PoA. My
sister has the first ed (1st printing US speak) but the ST Ives ed not the
Glasgow.

Heather




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 10 18:27:51 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:27:51 -0000
Subject: HP Related Work Story
Message-ID: <00e101c04b43$f0d5a840$5c60073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5559

I was supply teaching today, when a school secretary popped her head round the door with something one of the boys had forgotten.  She told me that there was a post it with the boy's name on it attached to the bag.  Looked down and it was for a James Potter.  Managed to conceal the grin long enough to hand the boy his bag, until the class got up to leave and one of his friends yelled 'Come on, James, father of Harry!'  

Alix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Fri Nov 10 18:38:55 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:38:55 -0000
Subject: Printing etc
References: <8ufj5t+mr2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008701c04b45$7ba7e040$226e883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 5560

Further to my last message I wans't talking specifically about the HP books
when I referred to 1st eds and reprints. I have not checked enough UK (or
indeed anywhere else) copies of these to know whether they are listed as
printings or reprints.

Heather




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 10 18:42:57 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:42:57 -0000
Subject: Harry's Vulnerability (was JKR in Reader's Digest Dec 2000)
References: <8ufjph+qib2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e601c04b46$0c7d3520$5c60073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5561

I was thinking that maybe him always having his glasses on was his
vulnerability.  After all, we already know from various hints, that Harry
having Lily's eyes is going to be important in the future books - maybe the
glasses act as some kind of inhibitor to whatever it is that's special about
them.  After all, and any of the mums on the list feel free to jump in and
correct me, the chances are that the first time Harry faced Voldemort, he
was too small to be wearing glasses yet - so my guess is that the glasses
interfere with some kind of special power connected with his eyes, and that
despite being blind as a bat without them, Harry needs to be glasses-less to
save the day sometime in the not too distant future.  It'd be kind of
ironic, too, if the glasses that were meant to help him ended up being a
hindrance.

Alix
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:42 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR in Reader's Digest Dec 2000


> She said
> > something like... "Don't they know his glasses are the key to his
> > vulnerability?"
> >
> > Hmmmmm....
>
> Well the most obvious explanation for something like this is that he
> can't see w/out his glasses (couldn't he get contacts though? Or
> magically fix his eyes? I mean if Hermione could change her teeth...)
>
> Also maybe she was just mad that yet another group of Harry artists
> were gits who hadn't even read the books!  That is certainly possible!
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Nov 10 18:56:18 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:56:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 4
In-Reply-To: <3A0B7CCE.D248DB49@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEEMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5562

Peg, the pictures are wonderful -- how I wish they would send this show on
tour so that we could all see it in person.  Thank you for all your hard
work with the photographs and descriptions.  If the store wanted to make a
mint of money, they could sell programs with photos of all the scenes, or
even a videotape so we could see the moving parts!

Thanks again for the photos!



-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:43 PM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 4


You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Nov 10 19:45:58 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:45:58 -0800
Subject: The Daily Profit -- Snape Speaks (Political but Harryesque)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001110112009.00c1cb70@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5563

Early this morning Professor Severus Snape called a press conference
on W-SPAN (Wizard's Spellcraft Public Affairs Network) to make
known his views on the recount in Florida:

"Let us be abundantly clear about this," Professor Snape said in a voice as
oily as his hair, "I am Potions Master at Hogwarts, and when we have 
"bubble in"
tests*, the student must mark only ONE answer.  Also, he or she must ensure
that the bubble is within a billionth of a centimeter of the correct size 
and alignment
and the bubble's color must be within a quadrillionth of a micron of 
wavelength in
the correct shade of pink.  Otherwise, the answer will be marked wrong 
and/or the
vote counting machine will explode and completely crash the Wizard Wide Web.
Just yesterday, I fed Miss Granger's test sheet in the machine upside down 
and for
the first time ever she got 0% on a test.  Miss Granger lodged a ridiculous 
protest,
which I of course nullified, pointing out that if she wished her test to be 
recorded
correctly she should have handed it to me with the tiny little arrow that 
any *real*
wizard (i.e. a Pure-Blood) would have seen pointing towards myself.  Students
are not given the opportunity to correct their dumb, stupid mistakes; the same
should be true of voters.  Good day."

* (A "bubble-in" test is one in which in which the student uses his/her wand
to materialize a perpetual soap bubble next to the correct answer.)

                                         -- Dave


P.S. The above was based on the comments of a schoolteacher who just called
in on C-SPAN and a *real* incident that happened to me in High School!  (When
"Snape" was finally persuaded to swallow his total loathing of me and feed 
the test
card through correctly, I got 98%.)


                                                 -- Dave




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Nov 10 20:30:01 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 10 Nov 2000 12:30:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Order Issue
Message-ID: <20001110203001.11974.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5564

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001110/aaed4b2f/attachment.ksh>

From karob_7 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 20:34:41 2000
From: karob_7 at yahoo.com (Karin )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:34:41 -0000
Subject: Eye Color (was Harry's Vulnerability)
In-Reply-To: <00e601c04b46$0c7d3520$5c60073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8uhm51+a1fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5565


"Alix Petty" wrote:
> After all, we already know from various hints, that Harry
> having Lily's eyes is going to be important in the future books 

Speaking of Harry's eyes, it's kind of interesting that Harry's eyes 
are green, the Slytherin color, and that Voldemort's are red, the 
Gryffindor color.  Not that we would want Harry's eyes to be red just 
because he's in Gryffindor.  :) Anyway, just a random observation.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Fri Nov 10 21:11:25 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:11:25 -0000
Subject: HP Related Work Story
Message-ID: <002301c04b5a$ca0f15e0$a3977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5566

>I was supply teaching today, when a school secretary popped her head round
the door with something one of the boys had forgotten.  She told me that
there was a post it with the boy's name on it attached to the bag.  Looked
down and it was for a James Potter.  Managed to conceal the grin long enough
to hand the boy his bag, until the class got up to leave and one of his
friends yelled 'Come on, James, father of Harry!'

Isn't it great... must be bad for children called Potter!

Nick.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Nov 10 21:13:40 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:13:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Order Issue
References: <20001110203001.11974.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3A0C6504.9A00C41D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5567

Hi --

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> Even though we'd decided among ourselves that she was probably given
> misinformation, I decided what the heck, let me call and check.  (Hey,
> I made a little poem!)  And the woman to whom I spoke with at
> Scholastic said that there are no plans at all to change anything in
> Goblet of Fire.
>
> So of course this means that Jo did NOT make a mistake, we were
> SUPPOSED to notice it and whisper and buzz over what it could possibly
> mean, and we won't find out until we find out.  That's just the way
> she operates.

Well . . . as it turns out, I have just returned from a trip to Sam's,
and I peeked in the 9th printing of GoF that they have stacked
everywhere.  That passage HAS in fact been changed, and just as the girl
on PoU forwarded to me.  I'm really in disbelief.  There's been no press
notice of this (despite the original CNN article on the "problem"), and
noone who's on this group has anything other than a 1st or 2nd printing
I don't guess.

I think we should get our FAQs written and sent off to Scholastic ASAP.
Who knows what other "errors" or "inconsistencies" that we've caught
that haven't yet been caught by JKR or Scholastic (or Bloomsbury for
that matter).

It also makes me wonder if we should really be going into this level of
theorizing on everything.  If the priori incantatum order was just a
*mistake,* then who knows what else is just a *mistake* also (despite
all our wild theories).  <vbg>

Is anyone else just incredulous that a *mistake* of that magnitude was
allowed to go to press.  I would wager that virtually all of us caught
that on our first read of GoF.  I know I did.  Where *are* the editors?
Are they simply not being given enough time to prevent major collossal
errors like this?  I think they'd be smart to not tie themselves into a
specific release date too early next time around.  Sounds like they
could use more time and more sets of eyes.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Fri Nov 10 21:10:19 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:10:19 -0000
Subject: Book printings
Message-ID: <001e01c04b5a$a29cd1a0$a3977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5568

>As far as HP goes doesn't the value also depend on whether the bnook wa
>spublished in ST Ives or Glasgow or is that just the luxury ed of PoA. My
>sister has the first ed (1st printing US speak) but the ST Ives ed not the
>Glasgow.

I wasn't aware that books previous to GOF were printed at the Glasgow
printers.

250,000 of GOF were printed in Glasgow, 750000 in StIves, so I suppose the
Glasgow ones are more vaulable, as there are less of them... though 250,000
is still a very large print run, when you consider that the some of the
other books had initial print runs of less than 3000.

I don't really know if 1st Printings are valuable at all really.  Some of my
books I regard as being valuable - they are 1st Printing, and signed by
Jo... it's the signature that makes it more valuable, as before recent, Jo
did not sign many books - and even now she does not sign all that many.

Nick.
(the one with several GOF First Printings (UK), who thinks they are not
worth all that much)





From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Fri Nov 10 21:33:09 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:33:09 -0000
Subject: Movie Cast List
Message-ID: <003801c04b5d$d5209d20$a3977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5569

I hunted the archive... but could not find anything from anyone recently
about the WB anouncement of the cast list.
So here it is!

Nick
------------------

Director: Chris Columbus (Mrs. Doubtfire, Home Alone, Stepmom)
Producer: David Heyman (Juice, Daytrippers).
Executive Producers:
  Mark Radcliffe (Mrs. Doubtfire, Stepmom, Home Alone 2)
  Michael Barnathan (Stepmom, Nine Months)
  Duncan Henderson (The Perfect Storm, Outbreak, Home Alone 2)

Harry Potter: Daniel Radcliffe (The Tailor of Panama, BBC TV's David
Copperfield)
Hermione Granger: Emma Watson
Ron Weasley: Rupert Grint

Nearly Headless Nick: John Cleese (The World Is Not Enough, A Fish Called
Wanda, Monty Python troupe)

Professor Dumbledore: Richard Harris (Gladiator, Unforgiven, Camelot)
Professor McGonagall: Dame Maggie Smith (Tea With Mussolini, Richard III,
The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie)
Professor Quirrell: Ian Hart (Land and Freedom, Hollow Reed, Backbeat)
Professor Snape: Alan Rickman (Truly Madly Deeply, Sense and Sensibility,
Die Hard)
Madame Hooch: Zo Wanamaker (Wilde, Raggedy Rawney, The Hunger)
Hagrid: Robbie Coltrane (Nuns on the Run, GoldenEye, The World is Not
Enough)


Uncle Vernon: Richard Griffiths (Sleepy Hollow, Naked Gun 2, King Ralph)
Aunt Petunia: Fiona Shaw (My Left Foot, The Butcher Boy, Franco Zeffirelli's
Jane Eyre)

Mrs Weasley: Julie Walters (Billy Elliot, Educating Rita, Personal Services)

Director of Photography: John Seale (The English Patient, The Perfect Storm,
Rain Man)
Production Designer: Stuart Craig (The English Patient, Dangerous Liaisons,
Gandhi)
Costume Designer: Judianna Makovsky (Little Princess, Pleasantville,
Reversal of Fortune)
Editor: Richard Francis-Bruce (The Shawshank Redemption, The Perfect Storm,
Air Force One)

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone will be released worldwide by Warner
Bros. Pictures,
beginning with the US and the UK in November 2001.





From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Fri Nov 10 21:47:50 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:47:50 -0000
Subject: Book printings -partly OT
References: <001e01c04b5a$a29cd1a0$a3977ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <031501c04b5f$e0162d60$226e883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 5570

> I wasn't aware that books previous to GOF were printed at the Glasgow
> printers.

I have to be honest I don't know I haven't researched it very thouroughly as
I've no intention of selling my Harry Potters anyway. I have trouble parting
with any book. Its heriditary I think. As a family we collect. . . The fire
brigade visited my parents house to fire inspect our new loft extension and
immediately announced we had so many books they were a fire hazard and must
be redistributed immediately so they were not all together. Moving the ones
on the stairs I can understand but the rest. We have evn more books now.

Veered OT there when all is said and done the books are only worth what
people are willing to pay. I personally would not be willing to pay for a
first printing as long as I had the full text to read. If a book is abridged
later thats different. I collect Chalet School books and the paperbacks are
so badly cut a hardback edition is a necessity. This has of course driven
the prices up (very few real collectors can now afford to buy) which is what
HP collecters are in danger of doing. IMNSHO there are to many people
waiting to cash in and make a big buck out of somebody elses genius.

Heather




From dorband at uwp.edu  Fri Nov 10 22:25:17 2000
From: dorband at uwp.edu (Brian  Dorband)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:25:17 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issue
In-Reply-To: <3A0C6504.9A00C41D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uhskd+r05u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5571

> voicelady at m... wrote:
> 
...  And the woman to whom I spoke with at
> > Scholastic said that there are no plans at all to change anything 
in
> > Goblet of Fire.
> >
> > So of course this means that Jo did NOT make a mistake, we were
> > SUPPOSED to notice it and whisper and buzz over what it could 
possibly
> > mean, and we won't find out until we find out.  That's just the 
way
> > she operates.



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Well . . . as it turns out, I have just returned from a trip to 
Sam's,
> and I peeked in the 9th printing of GoF that they have stacked
> everywhere.  That passage HAS in fact been changed, and just as the 
girl
> on PoU forwarded to me.  I'm really in disbelief.  
> Who knows what other "errors" or "inconsistencies" that we've caught
> that haven't yet been caught by JKR or Scholastic (or Bloomsbury for
> that matter).
> 
> It also makes me wonder if we should really be going into this level 
of
> theorizing on everything.  If the priori incantatum order was just a
> *mistake,* then who knows what else is just a *mistake* also 
(despite> all our wild theories).  <vbg>
> 
> Is anyone else just incredulous that a *mistake* of that magnitude 
was> allowed to go to press.  I would wager that virtually all of us 
caught> that on our first read of GoF.  I know I did.  Where *are* the 
editors?
 
> Penny





This is very disheartening; I wanted to hear what REALLY happened at 
Godric's Hollow that night, thinking JKR had a terrific twist for 
us...imagine HER embarassment the first time this was mentioned - and 
the the next 10 million times!  I imagine that she couldn't (and still 
can't) just say, "Well, I've made a mistake is all; buy the next 3 
books, though, they'll be fine."  

Damn.

I hate to say it, but this DOES change a reader's mindset regarding an 
author.  JKR had already said in interviews that GoF was late because 
of a gaping hole in the plot that she had to rewrite.  Perhaps the 
complexity of the plot is getting the best of her.  I hope it's not 
an indication that other "loose ends" won't be/can't be tied up.  I 
feel bad for her.  

Brian






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 10 22:33:33 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:33:33 -0000
Subject: Ch. 18 Summary w/ mini-Ollivander Sketch
Message-ID: <8uht3t+66dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5572

Forgive the tardiness of this--chalk it up to beginning-of-the-week 
20 hour days (work/school mania) and the subsequent election 
excitement.

Disclaimer:  This is not the most eloquent summary in the world.

HP AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE--CHAPTER 18 SUMMARY

Harry awakes on the morning after the selection of the Triwizard 
Champions to the awful realization that Ron does not believe that he 
didn't enter the contest illegally.  Hermione does believe Harry had 
nothing to do with his controversial selection for two reasons:  1)  
she has faith in Dumbledore's policing magic and 2) no student could 
have put it in.  She advises him to write to his godfather Sirius 
Black.  She also reveals to Harry that the reason for Ron's defection 
is jealousy.

Other than Hermione, the entire Hogwarts student body believes that 
Harry ignored the tournament rules and entered his name into the 
Goblet of Fire.  While the Gryffindors are pleased to have a champion 
from their House, the Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws, and Slytherins view 
him as a cheater.  Even faithful Hagrid sighs over the situation, 
saying, "Ah, I don't know, Harry... everythin' seems ter
happen ter you, doesn't it?"

Draco Malfoy and his gang of Slytherins take full advantage of 
Harry's unpopularity.  They fashion pro-Cedric Diggory buttons
that are charmed with anti-Harry rhetoric ("Support Cedric
Diggory, the real Hogwarts Champion/Potter Stinks").  During a pre-
Potions confrontation between Draco, Ron, Harry, and Hermione, Draco 
hits Hermione with a curse that makes her teeth grow rodent fashion.  
When Snape tells her "I see no difference"?she runs off crying,
Ron and Harry earn a detention and lose fifty points for Gryffindor.

Colin Creevey rescues Harry from the Potions class period from hell 
with a summons to a small classroom.  The other Triwizard Tournament 
champions are there with Ludo Bagman, the Magical Sports minister... 
and Rita Skeeter, investigative reporter for the Daily Prophet.  A 
broom closet interview transcripted via a nice-nasty Quick-Quotes 
Quill reveals a witch with a poisonous personality.  Dumbledore gets 
Harry out of his pickle with the press, just in time for the Weighing 
of the Wands.

The Weighing is conducted by Mr. Ollivander of the (--all my SS 
copies are on loan--) wand shop.  A mysterious, wise man, he is the 
wandsmith of Diagon Alley and for all we know, for the majority of 
England's wizarding population.  He uses every conceivable type
of wood for the "case" portions of the magic wands he
creates. 
 
The "core", or inside, consists of a special magic ingredient
such as unicorn hair or dragon heartstring.  Different combinations 
of wooden cases and magical cores, along with the wand's length
and handling, contribute to wand performance levels that are catered 
to the individual witch or wizard.  These are not rated or otherwise 
sized.  

Mr. Ollivander not only makes the wands, he fits each witch or wizard 
with the wand that best suits him or her.  Of course, wizards can use 
the wands of others, and a few can perform wandless magic.  But for 
optimum magical performance, Mr. Ollivander's craft and expertise
are indispensable.

Perhaps this is why he was called in to supervise the Weighing.  He 
tests all four champions' wands, with the following results:

Fleur	        
Rosewood, 9 ? inches
Core:  veela hair             
wandsmith unknown
WoW result:  "Orchideous!" (burst of flowers)

Cedric        
Ash, 12 ? inches
Core:  male unicorn hair        
wandsmith:  Ollivander
WoW result:  stream of silver smoke

Viktor	          
Hornbeam, 10 ? inches
Core:  dragon heartstring
wandsmith:  Gregorovitch        
WoW result:  "Avis!" (gun blast, twittering birds)

Harry		
Holly, 11 inches
Core:  phoenix feather
wandsmith: Ollivander
WoW result:  fountain of wine

After the wands are weighed and determined fit for competition, there 
are pictures taken of all the champions by Rita Skeeter, whose 
favoritism of Harry does not go unnoticed.  When he finally gets to 
dinner, Hermione is still getting her teeth fixed and Ron is still at 
outs with him.  But he does have owl post?a reply from Sirius. 

His godfather is justifiably concerned about his selection for the 
Triwizard Tournament because of his age and fame.  He tells Harry to 
be in the Gryffindor common room, near the fireplace, on November 22.

Questions (again, these may not be very coherent)

1) We've danced around this question, but here goes again.  If
Ron is "Harry's best friend" and Hermione is "Harry's
other best friend", why did Ron and Hermione react to Harry's 
selection in such disparate ways?  Justify your response.

2) Draco fans:  Write a mini-fanfic starring Draco and Company that 
is set parallel to the events at the beginning of this chapter.  You 
might want to speculate on the conversation in the Slytherin common 
room the night after the selection of champions, or tell how the 
button idea came into fruition.

3) Hermione fans:  What is Hermione thinking?  From the time of the 
walk by the lake until she is hit by Draco's misdirected curse,
she is one of Harry's lone supporters.  Try a brief diary entry
or two.

4)     Snape fans:   Does Snape, behind the scenes, try to disqualify 
Harry but fails?  Why not give us a sneak peek into the investigation?

5)     Who is the mysterious Mr. Ollivander?  How does one become a 
wandsmith?  How is the wand crafted?   How can Ollivander determine 
the perfect fit?

6) CHALLENGE QUESTION:  Analyze trends on the "Weight Chart"
I've provided.  Notice any similarities/disparities between or 
amongst the four champs?

(Yawn.)

B'deah, b'deah... that's all folks!

--Ebony (who is ready for Bush to win the thing, if only so that 
it'll be over and she can get some sleep)





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 10 23:22:23 2000
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:22:23 -0000
Subject: Babbling newbie (death of L&J, Rule-breaking, Ron, Peeves...)
Message-ID: <8uhvvf+efmd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5573

Hi all~
I'm new to the group, and only ever intended to lurk and enjoy all 
your great observations and analysis.

I have enjoyed all of that immensely, except when you were all making 
me cry discussing who was going to die, but I find that all of this HP 
stimulation has made my fingers itchy to respond.

There were a few things that I wanted to touch on, so let me see if I 
can stay coherent:

-Did someone find a reason to think that Voldemort didn't kill James, 
that someone else did?  Because I just reread SS/PS and am pretty sure 
that He tells Harry during their confrontation that he did kill James 
himself (and that he said he killed him before Lily).  Was wondering 
about that.
  -Also along those same lines I wanted to toss out my theory for the 
person who wondered why James' death didn't protect Lily the way 
Lily's death protected Harry.  I think maybe it's because James didn't 
die solely to protect them.  I don't know why V wanted to kill James, 
exactly, but I had inferred that it was because James had set himself 
against V and his cause in some substantial way.  In this light, James 
was dying as much for a cause (the 'resistance' for lack of a better 
term) as to protect his family.  He may, in fact, have believed that 
Voldemort would not hurt his family, unless he knew what we don't, 
which is why originally V wanted Harry dead.  This would be supported 
also by V's words to Harry in their first confrontation, when he tells 
him that his mother need not have died.
Just a thought.

-I also had a thought about the glorification of rulebreaking thread.  
I don't think she's encouraging kids/people to break the rules.  I 
think it's an indictment of unreasonable/unnecessary reliance on 
rules.  Society uses rules to keep order.  Unfortunately, it often 
degenerates to the point that rules are relied upon for the 
functioning of society (ie beaurocracy).  In this vein, rules that 
were designed to go along with the development of moral/ethical 
decision-making often become the replacements for these things, and 
(again like with beaurocratic rules designed to make things better 
that inevitably make things worse) do more harm than good.
The supreme example of what I think she intended would be in the 
Bible.  Jesus was constantly getting into trouble with the Pharisees 
for 'breaking rules' by healing people on the sabbath, interacting 
with 'unclean' people, and 'forgiving' sins, which was considered 
blasphemy.  The writers of the Bible were not glorifying 
rule-breaking, they were pointing out the inherent problems with 
applying rules without using compassion and discernment as guidelines.
(note - not intended to make HP/Bible paralells, just a useful 
example)

-On a lighter note, let me just say Yay Gwen! to the other newbie who  
had such an eloquent defense of Ron.  My inner child is in love with 
Ron (I had to wrestle her to the ground to keep her from picking a 
fight with the anti-Ron posters earlier on), and while I wouldn't be 
surprised if Ron were tempted by the 'dark side', I know in my heart 
that when push comes to shove Ron will, as he has done in the past, 
risk his life for his friends, and for the greater good. 
This said, I do have a question - one person mentioned that Ron was 
susceptible to the Imperius Curse.  I also recall that he was more 
influenced by the veela than Harry.  But at the same time he was not 
as susceptible to the mirror of Erised as Harry.   What do you think 
about that?  Seems interesting, but I don't know what it implies.

-One last question - this is in regards to the possibility that 
someone mentioned that Peeves is somehow a part of Dumbledore's 
personality.  I find that thought intriguing.  How would you (or would 
you at all) explain the connection between Peeves and the Bloody 
Baron?

Sorry for my long ramblings.  I promise to try to be less verbose from 
now on.
Thanks for your time,
kimberly (newbie)





From horning at education.wisc.edu  Fri Nov 10 23:26:03 2000
From: horning at education.wisc.edu (horning at education.wisc.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:26:03 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8ufobe+pqt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ui06b+ci09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5574

Jim, I work in a children's literature research library that's 
collecting the translated editions of Harry Potter and the 
Philosopher's Stone.  We've just launched a web page to provide a 
virtual exhibit and to help people keep track of the various 
international editions. This site also includes links to
international 
web sites related to Harry Potter. 

So far we've collected the first book in 27 languages (28 if you
count 
the two separate translations into Portuguese, one from Brazil and
one 
from Portugal).  Please refer to our  web page at 
http://www.education.wisc.edu/rowling/editions.htm for more 
information. In addition to the books you'll find there, I know that 
it's been published in Bulgaria, Rumania, Slovenia and Indonesia but 
haven't been able to track these down yet.  It also exists in a 
pirated Chinese edition (credited erroneously to Tibetan People's 
Publishing House) that I haven't found yet.  

Please feel free to download the jpg or gif file of any of the
jackets 
you find there that you need for the HP for Grownups file.  I'm glad 
someone else is interested in HP as a global phenonmenon. 

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Kathleen Horning
Cooperative Children's Book Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison
USA 




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Nov 10 22:45:15 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:45:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Order Issue
Message-ID: <id.10112000184515.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 5575

Remind me not to call Scholastic again.  Obviously, there are just too many employees willing to give any old answer to get people off the phone.
--------------------------------------------------------------
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer  <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Well . . . as it turns out, I have just returned from a trip to  Sam's, and I peeked in the 9th printing of GoF that they have stacked everywhere.  That passage HAS in fact been changed, and just as the  girl on PoU forwarded to me.  I'm really in disbelief.  Who knows what other "errors" or "inconsistencies" that we've caught that haven't yet been caught by JKR or Scholastic (or Bloomsbury for that matter).




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov 11 01:23:42 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:23:42 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issue and our motto
In-Reply-To: <3A0C6504.9A00C41D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8ui72u+6ieh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5576

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <
pennylin at s...> wrote:

> It also makes me wonder if we should really be going into this level of
> theorizing on everything.  If the priori incantatum order was just a
> *mistake,* then who knows what else is just a *mistake* also (despite
> all our wild theories).  <vbg>

Hmmm, as one of the wilder theorizers, I propose adopting the following 
motto from Horace, paraphrased for this group, and it's already in 
Latin!

Indignor quandoque bona dormitat Ioanna.
(Sometimes even Jo herself hath been observ'd to nod)





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 11 01:47:28 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:47:28 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Order Issue
In-Reply-To: <id.10112000184515.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <8ui8fg+svtq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5577

Just wanted to say that I am in no way trying  to imply that you're 
not telling the truth Penny, it's just that I find that hard to 
believe.  
I would like to see this from JKR if it was indeed meant to be 
corrected.  What I mean is that the whole chapter is undermined if it 
says that "Harry knew it was his mother b/c she was the one he had 
thought of more than any other that night."  He DID NOT think of his 
mother that night, he thought of his father, and the story doesn't 
make sense anyother way, in my not so humble opinon.
Lastly I agree with the person who said that this type of mistake can 
undermine the credibility of an author.

Now lets just all cross our fingers and hope that Scholastic admits 
it was a mistake...

Scott

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer  
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> > Well . . . as it turns out, I have just returned from a trip to  
Sam's, and I peeked in the 9th printing of GoF that they have stacked 
everywhere.  That passage HAS in fact been changed, and just as the  
girl on PoU forwarded to me.  I'm really in disbelief.  Who knows 
what other "errors" or "inconsistencies" that we've caught that 
haven't yet been caught by JKR or Scholastic (or Bloomsbury for that 
matter).




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Nov 11 02:31:51 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 02:31:51 -0000
Subject: Babbling newbie (death of L&J, Rule-breaking, Ron, Peeves...)
In-Reply-To: <8uhvvf+efmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uib2n+scb4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5578

Hi Kimberly!

Looks like I'll have to 'fess up about the Death Pool thing *hangs 
head in shame*. Never meant it to depress anyone, but it was based on 
a speculation that Rowling might decide to say good-bye to other 
characters in the remaining books.

I'm not a subscriber to the "Voldemort didn't go alone to Godric's 
Hollow" theory. I think the act of Lily begging to spare Harry and 
offering herself in his place is what conferred the immunity. I agree 
with you that it seems like Voldemort had no initial intention of 
killing Lily. I brought up a theory a couple of months ago that Lily 
might have been a Death Eater and that she knew Voldemort was going to 
kill James, but was double crossed when he(Voldy) went after Harry, 
thereby causing her to beg for Harry's life. But it's a bit disturbing 
to think the Lily could be a Death Eater.

Good point about the affects of the Mirror and the veelas on Ron. But 
if I recall correctly, the veelas make men want to show off: during 
the Dark Mark incident at the World Cup, some wizards were influenced 
by the veela and were telling her things to elevate themselves. Ron's 
Mirror desire was to gain some kind of recognition, which probably 
made him more veela vulnerable.

The Bloody Baron is somewhat of a mystery. Although he's covered in 
blood, no one knows how he died. But his ghastly appearance is 
intimidating to Peeves and the other ghosts. Perhaps the Baron died in 
a very foolish accidental way, foolish enough that he's quite happy 
with everyone thinking it wasn't.

:-) Milz
  
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kimberly " <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> Hi all~
> I'm new to the group, and only ever intended to lurk and enjoy all 
> your great observations and analysis.
> 
> I have enjoyed all of that immensely, except when you were all 
making 
> me cry discussing who was going to die, but I find that all of this 
HP 
> stimulation has made my fingers itchy to respond.
> 
> There were a few things that I wanted to touch on, so let me see if 
I 
> can stay coherent:
> 
> -Did someone find a reason to think that Voldemort didn't kill 
James, 
> that someone else did?  Because I just reread SS/PS and am pretty 
sure 
> that He tells Harry during their confrontation that he did kill 
James 
> himself (and that he said he killed him before Lily).  Was wondering 
> about that.
>   -Also along those same lines I wanted to toss out my theory for 
the 
> person who wondered why James' death didn't protect Lily the way 
> Lily's death protected Harry.  I think maybe it's because James 
didn't 
> die solely to protect them.  I don't know why V wanted to kill 
James, 
> exactly, but I had inferred that it was because James had set 
himself 
> against V and his cause in some substantial way.  In this light, 
James 
> was dying as much for a cause (the 'resistance' for lack of a better 
> term) as to protect his family.  He may, in fact, have believed that 
> Voldemort would not hurt his family, unless he knew what we don't, 
> which is why originally V wanted Harry dead.  This would be 
supported 
> also by V's words to Harry in their first confrontation, when he 
tells 
> him that his mother need not have died.
> Just a thought.
> 
> -I also had a thought about the glorification of rulebreaking 
thread.  
> I don't think she's encouraging kids/people to break the rules.  I 
> think it's an indictment of unreasonable/unnecessary reliance on 
> rules.  Society uses rules to keep order.  Unfortunately, it often 
> degenerates to the point that rules are relied upon for the 
> functioning of society (ie beaurocracy).  In this vein, rules that 
> were designed to go along with the development of moral/ethical 
> decision-making often become the replacements for these things, and 
> (again like with beaurocratic rules designed to make things better 
> that inevitably make things worse) do more harm than good.
> The supreme example of what I think she intended would be in the 
> Bible.  Jesus was constantly getting into trouble with the Pharisees 
> for 'breaking rules' by healing people on the sabbath, interacting 
> with 'unclean' people, and 'forgiving' sins, which was considered 
> blasphemy.  The writers of the Bible were not glorifying 
> rule-breaking, they were pointing out the inherent problems with 
> applying rules without using compassion and discernment as 
guidelines.
> (note - not intended to make HP/Bible paralells, just a useful 
> example)
> 
> -On a lighter note, let me just say Yay Gwen! to the other newbie 
who  
> had such an eloquent defense of Ron.  My inner child is in love with 
> Ron (I had to wrestle her to the ground to keep her from picking a 
> fight with the anti-Ron posters earlier on), and while I wouldn't be 
> surprised if Ron were tempted by the 'dark side', I know in my heart 
> that when push comes to shove Ron will, as he has done in the past, 
> risk his life for his friends, and for the greater good. 
> This said, I do have a question - one person mentioned that Ron was 
> susceptible to the Imperius Curse.  I also recall that he was more 
> influenced by the veela than Harry.  But at the same time he was not 
> as susceptible to the mirror of Erised as Harry.   What do you think 
> about that?  Seems interesting, but I don't know what it implies.
> 
> -One last question - this is in regards to the possibility that 
> someone mentioned that Peeves is somehow a part of Dumbledore's 
> personality.  I find that thought intriguing.  How would you (or 
would 
> you at all) explain the connection between Peeves and the Bloody 
> Baron?
> 
> Sorry for my long ramblings.  I promise to try to be less verbose 
from 
> now on.
> Thanks for your time,
> kimberly (newbie)




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov 11 02:44:10 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 02:44:10 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8ui06b+ci09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uibpq+c3l5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5579

Thanks to Simon and Kathleen for giving me some pointers on where to 
find more publishers' web sites.  We now have covers from:

Estonia - 1, 2, & 3
Croatia - 1, 2
Greece - 1, 2, & 3
Iran (!) - 1 

Iran is my new pick for worst cover, replacing Iceland.

Take a look at the HP-related reviews and other information 
on Kathleen's site, the Cooperative Children's Book Center at the 
University of Wisconsin-Madison.  Here's a good link to start with:

http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/hpreview.htm


-Jim Flanagan




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 02:53:12 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:53:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 4
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEEMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A0CB498.6149FABB@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5580

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> Peg, the pictures are wonderful <snip> Thanks again for the photos!

There will be a few more.  I went back today and got some close ups and
different angles.  I'll post those soon.  Lighting was still a big problem,
even from a variety of angles.  I'll post the new ones later, with an email,
and I'll try to work them into the correct points in the folder.

Thanks for letting me know you enjoyed them.  Appreciation is appreciated: it
WAS a lot of work, but it's been fun, too.

The crowds are getting much bigger.  I stopped by on my lunch hour hoping to
get in, but they said the line was an hour long.  So I went after work, and
that wasn't so bad.

After Thanksgiving, it's gonna be impossible.

About the music . . . I dunno.  I don't think I even have a working tape
recorder.  You might have to be satisfied with just the pictures.

Peg





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 03:18:39 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 03:18:39 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8uibpq+c3l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uidqf+10fa3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5581

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Thanks to Simon and Kathleen for giving me some pointers on where 
to 
> find more publishers' web sites.  We now have covers from:
> 
> Estonia - 1, 2, & 3
> Croatia - 1, 2
> Greece - 1, 2, & 3
> Iran (!) - 1 
> 
> Iran is my new pick for worst cover, replacing Iceland.
> 

You are not kidding about that Iranian cover....who is that running 
across the bottom of the picture?  Groucho Marx?

Although some sort of prize should go to those Italian covers for the 
first 2 books, where they forgot to tell the artist to READ the book 
before drawing the picture.

On a more serious note, are you sure that the Castillian Spanish 
edition is from Argentina?  I have the exact same book as the one 
pictured (Harry Potter y la piedra filsofal), published by *emece* 
and it was published in Spain.  (Of course it could have also been 
published in Argentina.)

--Joywitch




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 04:10:31 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:10:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How errors creep in (LONG) (was Re: Wand Order  Issue)
References: <8ui8fg+svtq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0CC6B7.4A6270DF@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5582


Scott wrote:

> Just wanted to say that I am in no way trying  to imply that you're
> not telling the truth Penny, it's just that I find that hard to
> believe.
> I would like to see this from JKR if it was indeed meant to be
> corrected.  What I mean is that the whole chapter is undermined if it
> says that "Harry knew it was his mother b/c she was the one he had
> thought of more than any other that night."  He DID NOT think of his
> mother that night, he thought of his father, and the story doesn't
> make sense anyother way, in my not so humble opinon.
> Lastly I agree with the person who said that this type of mistake can
> undermine the credibility of an author.
>

Okay, I think I should chime in here as possibly one of the only people on
this list who has ever seen a book shepherded from manuscript to print (am I
right?)

You have to realize it's not just the author, and it's not just a monolithic
publisher.  It's the author, and the author's word processing software, and
the editor and the copy editor, and the book designer and the typesetter,
and the software they use for spellchecking, and the software program they
used to translate it to because they don't have the same word processing
software that the author uses . . .

Jo works differently than I do, I understand: she writes her first draft
longhand.  I type directly on my computer and do rolling revision, meaning,
I just keep reworking and reworking a scene, writing directly over what has
been written before.  I keep a dump file for each chapter, and if I cut
something big, I put it there, so if I need to reconstruct something or I
change my mind and decide I will use a bit later, I can find it.

When you change your mind on a big plot thingummy, you have to make a mental
note about all the other things in the plot this affects and remember to
change them, too.  Say you decide to change what character X is wearing, not
only do you have to change it in the scene, but you have to go back to the
earlier scene where you described the character getting dressed and fix
that, too. And you can miss them.  Sometimes you just throw something in,
and you forget all about it and write two hundred and fifty more pages and
then decide, "I'll make Lady Isabella's eyes blue"--forgetting that you
declared them to be a ravishing emerald green when you wrote that earlier
scene six months ago.

Then, let's say, like Jo, you miss your deadline. Suddenly, you're short on
sleep. And when you re-read the damn thing, the words dance on the paper in
front of your eyes because you've read it fifty times before, and what
you've written and what you've erased and what you intended to write and
what you've forgotten about and what you still intend to fix but haven't
gotten around to fixing jumble about in your head, and so you miss things.

You send the Ms off to the publisher, and then you wait and chew your
nails.  Finally, the editor sends you back the revision requests.  You take
forty-eight hours for your blood pressure to subside, and then you read her
letter again, decide she's four-fifths right, and why didn't you ever see
that, but you will NOT give on the last one-fifth, and so you call your
editor and have a phone conference and finally hammer out that you'll change
three keys scenes, but that means you'll have to write a new chapter two,
and while you're at it, you can clear up those discrepancies about your
hero's family history and change the younger brother's girlfriend to the
reporter's cousin.

You send the manuscript back to the publisher, both hard copy and on disk,
and she finally gets back to you and says she's accepting it.  Huzzah!  You
open some champagne and celebrate.  [You should realize, of course, that the
final check you've been expecting won't show up for six months, because of
that contract change you signed eight months ago that your agent sent you,
changing your payment schedule from 1/3 upon outline; 1/3 upon final draft;
1/3 upon publication to 1/3 upon signing, 1/3 upon first draft; 1/3 upon
final draft but no one forwarded the changed contract to the accounting
department, so when you call and ask your editor "where's my check?" she
sends a note to accounting saying, "Pay her what we still owe her," and the
accounting department looks up the old contract and say, "We've already paid
her everything we owe her," not realizing that they haven't, and this isn't
figured out till five months later.  But I digress.]

Anyway, eventually, the copy editor sends the manuscript back, marked up for
the typesetter, with a whole list of queries, and they want you to look the
whole six hundred pages of manuscript over with a fine tooth comb, and they
need it back in New York in three days.  You pay the express shipping
charges, of course.  I personally read both copyedit manuscript and typeset
galleys BACKWORDS -- word by word.  That way the meaning of what you are
reading doesn't trip you up, and you see things with a new eye.  And you
realize -- hey, do I want to say door frame or doorframe?  If I make it two
words, what should I do about windowsill?  Should that be two words, too?
Should I say "was" or "were" here?  Is that the subjunctive mood?  You pull
out your grammar handbooks.  You pull out your editing handbooks.  You read
the copyeditor's queries and realize "Good god, that's enormous plot hole! I
never thought of that!  What should I do about it?"  You tear your hair
out.  You call the editor and say, another week, please?  "No way," your
editor says.  "You've got the March slot, and if we let it slip . . ." she
lets the threat hang in the air.  You hang up the phone, cravenly giving in,
and make another pot of coffee and curse.

Finally, you finish and send the copyedit off and just when you think you're
free again, you get the printed galleys back (the book as typeset) and
you're told to go through it again.  And it has to be back to the publisher
in three days to a week.  Omigod--did you get that copyright permission
lined up for that epigram you used as a chapter opener?  The type is so
close together.  How can you read it?  You're going blind.  You read it
backwards.  Again.  If you hurry, will you have enough time to go through it
twice?  Those spaces after the periods--is that the right amount of space,
or is a space missing, and how can you tell if you've never seen this
typeset font before?  Why is that word spelled that way?  You know you
didn't spell it that way.  It's not spelled that way on your manuscript, and
the copyeditor made no changes to it.  And you gave the editor the book on
disk, so there's no excuse for this!  Weren't they going to set the book
directly from your disk?  You call your editor, who explains that they run a
spellchecker which routinely changes words without asking for anyone's
permission.  But you didn't spell anything wrong.  The spellchecker took
your perfectly spelled word and turned it into a different perfectly spelled
word that makes no sense in the context of the sentence.  It did that same
change everywhere throughout the book.  Are you sure you caught all of them?

You have your style handbook, your grammar reference guide, your dictionary,
your thesaurus (did you really use the word "ringing" THREE times in that
one paragraph?) your two volume Oxford English Dictionary with the
magnifying glass to help you read the itty bitty type, lots of pencils and
erasers, your guide to typesetter's marks, your fat volume of character
notes, the previous draft of the book, your previous book to check for
continuity errors, your xerox of the marked up copyedited version (you DID
keep a xerox, didn't you?), the typesetter's notes, your answers to
copyeditor's queries (you did keep a copy of those, didn't you?  Did the
typesetter catch them all?), the editor's original revision letter, and your
own notes for last minute revision all within arm's reach.  Don't forget you
can't make too many changes to the typeset version.  That gets expensive!
You curse and cry some more.  If anyone talks to you, you snarl at them.
Your spouse shoves sandwiches in through the office door and continually
stokes the coffeepot, and your children avoid you.

I may be exaggerating a little, but not by much.

I have a friend whose book schedule went all awry, necessitating rushing the
book into print with many errors because it hadn't been properly copyedited
because the copyeditor who had her manuscript had a psychotic break and they
found him wandering around talking to himself in Central Park, and by the
time they got her manuscript retrieved from his apartment it was too late to
do anything but a rush job (she sometimes jokes that she wonders whether it
was her book that pushed him over the edge).  I have had friends who had
their books put in print, in error, from the PREVIOUS version of the book.

I've mentioned before that I lost a whole moon in my first novel.  I saw the
cover and groused about how I hadn't put a moon in my world, damnit--and
then re-read the first chapter, which I'd read a million times, and there
dagnabit was the moon I'd put in that I'd forgotten all about.

And I didn't have several million people waiting with bated breath for my
next book, and I didn't have an editor who KNEW I had those million people
waiting for my next book.

So . . . yeah, I can understand how errors can get introduced.  Believe me,
I do.

Peg Kerr

Shameless plug:
Author of _Emerald House Rising) and _The Wild Swans_ (both published by
Warner Books)

Website: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/PegKerrBibliog.html




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 04:17:48 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:17:48 -0000
Subject: Fic Announcement
In-Reply-To: <8uguos+d3tu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uih9c+ocng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5583

Blaise,

That was awesome I really enjoyed it, it bringd up a burnning 
question (which I had after reading GoF) If Snape was a death 
eater then he should have known that Sirius was never 
Voldemorts second. As when the dark mark burned they all 
dropped what they were doing to aparate to Voldemorts side or 
circle. Well Snape would have seen Sirius there? so there you 
have it, but your fic was great!!!

Thanks,

Dave




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov 11 04:22:12 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:22:12 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8uidqf+10fa3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uihhk+9r6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5584

As near as I can tell with my poor Spanish, Emec? is an Argentinian 
publisher that also has operations in Spain.  The translators were 
from Spain. While I was researching this, I found two completely 
different HP covers from another Spanish publisher.  I'll post these 
shortly.

-JF

> 
> On a more serious note, are you sure that the Castillian Spanish 
> edition is from Argentina?  I have the exact same book as the one 
> pictured (Harry Potter y la piedra filsofal), published by *emece* 
> and it was published in Spain.  (Of course it could have also been 
> published in Argentina.)
> 
> --Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 04:40:34 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:40:34 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8uihhk+9r6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uiik2+snqn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5585

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> As near as I can tell with my poor Spanish, Emec? is an Argentinian 
> publisher that also has operations in Spain.  The translators were 
> from Spain. 

Odd.  My book lists 2 different addresses in Barcelona, one for the 
publisher (Emece) and one for the printer.  It says nothing about 
Argentina.  How do you know the translator was from Spain?  In my 
edition it just has the translators name - Alicia Dellepiane.  It is 
hard to believe that an Argentinian publisher would use a Spanish (as 
in from Spain) translator, as Latin American and Spanish dialects are 
considerably different.  The translation I have is distinctly from-
Spain Spanish; it uses a lot of words I dont know as I learned 
Spanish in Latin America.  It could be that there are 2 different 
Castillian editions, one Spanish and one Argentinian, thus increased 
the number of translations of the HP books.

--Joywitch




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 11 04:55:53 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:55:53 -0000
Subject: Ego and Id (was re: Peeves' function in the story)
In-Reply-To: <8ufj5t+mr2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uijgp+qjot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5586

NB: Speculation in regards to Peeves and the Baron and more toward
the end. I have previously submitted these theories before on another 
list, so I do hope that those who have already heard them will
forgive my repetition, and allow their attention to wander freely...

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
>So, how about it: is Peeves Dumbledore's inner teenager let loose on 
the unsuspecting students?

Sam Brown wrote:
>I'm convinced that Peeves will have a crucial role in the upcoming 
books based on the information in PS/SS: He's only scared/able to be 
controlled br the Bloody Baron, the Slytherin ghost.

I very much like the idea of Peeves being the manifestation of 
someone's id.  It seems to me that his character is only half formed. 
 He completely lacks that part of a personality responsible the 
self-restraint.

I have an alternative theory, which takes into account the Bloody 
Baron's influence over Peeves.

The Bloody Baron has silver bloodstains on his robes.  We don't know 
how they got there, but the only animal we know of with silver blood 
in the unicorn.  As Firenze the centaur said in the Philosopher's 
Stone, "...The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you an 
are inch from death, but at a terrible price.  You have slain 
something pure and defenceless to save yourself and you will have but 
a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your 
lips."  

What if the Bloody Baron was attempting to make an elixir of life?  
Obviously, it didn't work - he's dead - but perhaps he encountered 
something with magic more powerful than the unicorn's, or killed 
himself.  When he drank the blood, that part of him capable of fun
was torn away.  The result was the sad, dour person described in the 
books... with part of his personality is gone, the Baron is doomed to 
a "half life".  The annoying off shoot is Peeves, who does what he 
likes, having no self discipline.  His self discipline resides in the 
Baron.

What is his function in the book?  As someone has already pointed
out, JKR seems to like moderation.  She allows Harry to get away with 
a lot, but every now and then drives home just how stupid and 
dangerous his actions can be.  This is particularly true in the 
Prisoner of Azkaban.  After he is caught with the Map, having been to 
Hogsmead, both Snape and Lupin tell Harry off for his arrogance and 
thoughtlessness.  And they're right, but, when made to realise this, 
Harry is sorry.  He learns from it.  Peeves doesn't think about his 
actions.  By creating an antagonistic character of pure mischief, JKR 
sends the message that rule-breaking, in its own right, is 
unacceptable.  Everyone is accountable for what they do.

This theme also comes up in the Goblet of Fire.  Here, you have two 
characters, Crouch and Bagman, representing two opposite poles.  One 
is completely focused, uncompromising and inflexible.  The other is
an overgrown child, who is still trying to worm his way out of his 
self-afflicted strife.  Through this comparison, both extremes are 
shown to be unfavourable.

It is for this reason that, of all the Weasleys, the ones I would 
expect to end up in death eater trouble are Percy and Fred.  Percy,
as I'm sure has been discussed, tends to lean on the rules too much. 
His faith in his superiors and the system could prevent him from 
exercising his own better judgement, leading him to do things he 
otherwise wouldn't.  

Fred, on the other hand, seems to be completely devoid of better 
judgement, or self-consciousness.  The way he asks Angelina to the 
ball shows how little embarrassment effects him (even if she is a 
friend, how did he know someone else hadn't asked her?).  Throughout 
the series, Fred seems to be the twin quickest off the mark with the 
smart comment, but George seems to be less cruel with his jokes and 
generally more considerate.  In the Goblet of Fire, we see, for the 
first time, Fred and George disagreeing with each other.  Fred is 
insisting on blackmailing Bagman, while George is resisting it.  This 
makes me wonder if that dynamic has always existed between the twins. 
 Both engage in the mischief making, but Fred thinks up the ideas, 
while George makes sure no one kills themselves.  If this is true, it 
is possible Fred has never had to develop that self-restraint most 
people have - George is his ego.  This could prove a major problem,
as it is this little voice of reason, somewhere in the back of your
mind, which allows you to fight the Imperious Curse.

And, of course, if Fred does go Dark Side, there could be a further 
twin problem.  They are identical down to the last freckle, and even 
Molly has trouble telling them apart.  Wouldn't it be interesting if 
the two of them ended up on opposite sides?

Finally, I'd just like to say thanks for the welcome.  You all really 
know how to make an obsessed fan feel at home!
Gwen.





From lavieboheme19 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 11 04:59:55 2000
From: lavieboheme19 at yahoo.com (Ellen Glassie)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:59:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
Message-ID: <20001111045955.24284.qmail@web6305.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5587

<<Okay. Here's the deal. If Shrubya gets in, we
Americans form a commune, change our names to "Harry",
"Hermione", "Ron", "Hedwig" and "Allegra", move to
Argyllshire and buy a large eccentric house which
we'll name Bailicroft.>>

I, too, am ready to tear my hair out over the prospect
of having our country run by someone with the basic
intelligence of Cheez Whiz. Apologies to any Bush
supporters, but he is just not exactly the sharpest
quill on the porcupine. So, anyway, I'm with you. Tell
me when it's going down.

Always,
NO DAY BUT TODAY,
Ellen

=====
Angelina_Johnson at HarryPotterNetwork.zzn.com

"So, Janey, how was school?"
"It was okay."
"Just okay?"
"No, dad, it was spectacular."
                               American Beauty

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 11 05:09:56 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:09:56 +0000
Subject: (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <20001111045955.24284.qmail@web6305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5588

This just in:

"PROTESTS ORGANISING FOR SATURDAY, 11/11 AND 11/18 @ 1PM LOCAL TIMES.

See http://geocities.com/countercoup for more info. Add protest locations
and contact people directly to the DATABASE section on eGroups:??
http://www.egroups.com/database/trustthepeople Upload & download fliers,
photos and other materials to the files section:
http://www.egroups.com/files/trustthepeople/


This message board is for coordinating protests for Saturdays 11/11 & 11/18,
1PM (local times). Response to this idea has been overwhelming. Show up to
the protests with (or without) signs, bullhorns, and cell phones to call
friends and your local media. Call the media now so they know this is
happening and start talking about it: cbs 212-975-4321, abc 212-456-7777,
nbc 212-664-4444, cnn 404-827-1500"

Interesting that they're using an eGroup to fight this one out. I'd urge
anyone who's interested to go along to their local protest. Some of the
suggested placard images are REALLY amusing too ;)

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 11 05:17:46 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:17:46 +0000
Subject: (OT: Pol) Online Petitions
In-Reply-To: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <B63286FA.7E2C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5589

Sorry if this is getting repetitive, but as a student of International
Relations and a former student of Politics, I'm finding the grass-roots
internet efforts to organise protests fascinating. Perhaps those who share
this interest would be interested in the following:

I have just read and signed the online petition:

   "Trust The People"

hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:

   http://www.PetitionOnline.com/trust1/

I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too.  If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider
signing yourself.

Cheers,

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 11 05:48:51 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:48:51 -0000
Subject: Babbling newbie
In-Reply-To: <8uhvvf+efmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uimk3+hc6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5590

Kimberly wrote:
> -Also along those same lines I wanted to toss out my theory for 
the person who wondered why James' death didn't protect Lily the way 
Lily's death protected Harry.  I think maybe it's because James 
didn't die solely to protect them.  I don't know why V wanted to kill 
James, exactly, but I had inferred that it was because James had set 
himself against V and his cause in some substantial way.  In this 
light, James was dying as much for a cause (the 'resistance' for lack 
of a better term) as to protect his family.  

There has been a lot of speculation that Harry might be the heir of 
Gryffindor, which was why Voldemort was after him.  Regardless of 
which side of the family this came from, Voldemort would most likely 
have assumed it was James' (Muggle born Lily would be below his 
notice).  Thus, in Voldemort's eyes, both James and Harry would be a 
threat and, so, both would be the target.  Thus, James would have
died protecting himself as much as his family.  Lily, on the other 
hand, died purely for Harry.

>He may, in fact, have believed that Voldemort would not hurt his 
family, unless he knew what we don't, which is why originally V
wanted Harry dead.  

Dumbledore knows, he said so in the Philosopher's Stone.  Would he 
really have kept this from James?

Also, you'll remember when Harry goes to Ollivander's, Ollivander
tells him about his parent's wands.  He says James' was good for 
transfiguration (appropriate for an animagus), while Lily's was good 
for charm work, so Lily must have been good at charms.  It is
possible that her death, in itself, didn't cast the charm - she cast 
the charm and her death gave it power.

> My inner child is in love with Ron...

Mine, too.  She often has arguements with my trouble-maker, who is in 
love with George, and my inner werewolf, who is in love with Lupin.

> This said, I do have a question - one person mentioned that Ron was 
susceptible to the Imperius Curse.  I also recall that he was more 
influenced by the veela than Harry.  But at the same time he was not 
as susceptible to the mirror of Erised as Harry.   What do you think 
about that?  Seems interesting, but I don't know what it implies.

Generally, I think Ron is less focused than Harry.  This leaves him 
more vulnerable to suggestion and superficiallity.  It also means 
that, once these influences are removed, they are easier to forget. 
I think part of Ron's growing up might be finding that focus.  We'll
see exactly who and what have penetrated his minute attention span
and become important to him.

Okay, this is a small, ill defined bit of speculation.  I'll have to 
go over the books, again, to concrete it.  However, has anyone
noticed how every now and then, when Ron throws in his sarcastic 
little observations, he turns out to be right?  He guessed about 
Riddle killing Moaning Murtyl, he guessed about Crookshanks 
understanding speech (if he couldn't, how did he know what Neville's 
list of passwords was?) and, when he and Harry were making up stories 
for Devination in Goblet of Fire, they actually managed to predict 
their whole arguement.  No one pays much attention, not even Ron.  
He's joking, and is probably just as surprised as anyone when these 
things actually come to pass.  What's more, when he deliberately
tries to analyse things, he often gets it wrong.  However,
Trelawney's real prediction occurred when she wasn't trying to
predict anything.  She just let her concious mind go and the words 
came.  Maybe when Ron is taking himself least seriously, he is 
actually saying the most important things.  If this is true, an 
unfocused mind might be advantageous.  I'm probably wrong about this, 
but wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if Ron, who considers his 
Devination homework a work of fiction, turned out to be a Seer?  
Wouldn't Hermione howl!

Okay, that's it,
Gwen.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 06:44:06 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:44:06 -0600
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
Message-ID: <3A0CEAB6.1001C84F@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5591

You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

I admit it.  I am obsessed.  I went back to the show today and got more
pictures.  I was concentrating on getting pictures I'd missed before,
and trying to get close ups.  I also played with the color balance on
some of them to try to make details clearer--as a result, the color may
seem a bit washed out.

Sorry, Draco fans.  I still couldn't get a good picture of Draco.  He's
only in two scenes.  In one scene (the robe shop) he's burned out by a
spot light, and in the other (the Forbidden Forest) he's in deep
shadow.  I couldn't adjust the picture on either picture enough to make
him clear enough to see.

I've inserted these pictures in order in the Folder, but I'm giving you
the descriptions here.

Here are some more paintings along the entrance hallway

Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Norbert

Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans (blurred)

Next Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Scabbers (note that his tale makes the 'S' in
Scabbers)

Next Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Fluffy

Next picture:
Entrance hall picture: Hedwig

Insert picture:
Dursley living room on Dudley's birthday.  Close up of Petunia.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 07:45:38 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:45:38 -0600
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close ups) (re-sent)
Message-ID: <3A0CF922.80095B3E@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5592

The last message was sent prematurely (it's late, I'm tired, and I hit
the wrong button).  I'll send it again, adding the rest.

You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

I admit it.  I am obsessed.  I went back to the show today and got more
pictures.  I was concentrating on getting pictures I'd missed before,
and trying to get close ups.  I also played with the color balance on
some of them to try to make details clearer--as a result, the color may
seem a bit washed out.

Sorry, Draco fans.  I still couldn't get a good picture of Draco.  He's
only in two scenes.  In one scene (the robe shop) he's burned out by a
spot light, and in the other (the Forbidden Forest) he's in deep
shadow.  I couldn't adjust the picture on either picture enough to make
him clear enough to see.

I've inserted these pictures in order in the Folder, but I'm giving you
the descriptions here.

Here are some more paintings along the entrance hallway

Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Norbert

Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans (blurred)

Next Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Scabbers (note that his tail makes the 'S' in
Scabbers)

Next Picture:
Entrance hall picture: Fluffy

Next picture:
Entrance hall picture: Hedwig

Insert picture:
Dursley living room on Dudley's birthday.  Close up of Petunia.

Insert picture:
Dursley living room on Dudley's birthday.  Close up of Vernon.

Insert picture:
Dursley living room on Dudley's birthday.  Close up of Dudley (color
adjusted).

Insert picture:
Shack by the sea.  Astounded, Harry reads letter from Hogwarts.

Insert picture:
Shack by the sea.  Dudley writhes on floor with pig tail protruding from
his pants. (Blurry due to movement.)

Insert picture:
Another angle of Hagrid through window of train on trip to London.

Insert picture:
Close up of Harry descending stairs at Paddington Station.  Note how
small he looks next to Hagrid's enormous hand.  He seems really young to
me in this picture, excited and nervous about this trip.

Insert picture:
Goblin guarding the entrance at Gringotts (color adjusted).

Insert picture:
Another angle of Harry in his Gringott's vault.

Insert picture:
Arrival feast: close up of Ron.

Insert picture:
Arrival feast: close up of Dumbledore.

Insert picture:
Arrival feast: close up of Harry.

Insert picture:
Arrival feast: close up of Hermione (color adjusted).

Insert picture:
Another angle of potions class.  The blur to the left of Snape's face is
Hermione's hand, waving in the air.  The white spot in the low middle is
the froth on the top of Harry's cauldron; Harry is beside it to the
right and Ron is in the row ahead of him.

Insert picture:
Professor McGonagall realizes that Harry (flying overhead) is a natural
Seeker (color adjusted).

Insert picture:
Quirrell, Hermione and Snape, during the Quidditch match between
Slytherin and Gryffindor.

Insert picture:
Harry lunges for the Snitch, hanging from his broom by one knee.  Color
adjusted.

Insert picture:
Harry reaches for Snitch, another angle.  Color adjusted.

Insert picture:
Student watching Harry on broom overhead during Quidditch match
(probably Dean Thomas?)  He also appears in a later scene, the one where
Harry's broom is delivered.

Insert picture:
Hermione checks book about Nicholas Flamel.  Note Dumbledore card in
Harry's hand.

Insert picture:
Neville, still upset, eats the Chocolate Frog Harry has given him.

Insert picture:
Fluffy, lulled to sleep by Hermione's music.

Insert picture:
Hermione with potions puzzle. Less blurry, color adjusted picture

Insert picture:
Harry looks at his reflection in the Mirror of Erised as Quirrell lunges
at him.  Note the glow (the Philosopher's Stone) in Harry's left pocket.

Insert picture:
Close up: Ron, Neville and Harry celebrate Gryffindor winning House Cup.

Insert picture:
Same scene.  Close up of Dumbledore applauding.

Insert picture:
Same scene.  Close up of Hermione applauding.

I hope you enjoy these if you have the chance to check them out.

Peg









From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 07:51:57 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:51:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Babbling newbie
References: <8uimk3+hc6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0CFA9D.4183C1E0@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5593

"Brandgwen G." wrote:

>  I'm probably wrong about this,
> but wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if Ron, who considers his
> Devination homework a work of fiction, turned out to be a Seer?
> Wouldn't Hermione howl!
>
> Okay, that's it,
> Gwen.

Hot damn, another great idea.  Stay on this list, Gwen, you've got wonderful
insights.  Keep sharing them.

Cheers,
Peg




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 11 13:19:24 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:19:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 259
Message-ID: <20001111131924.18544.qmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5594

>I was supply teaching today, when a school secretary popped her head round
the door with something one of the boys had forgotten.  She told me that
there was a post it with the boy's name on it attached to the bag.  Looked
down and it was for a James Potter.  Managed to conceal the grin long enough
to hand the boy his bag, until the class got up to leave and one of his
friends yelled 'Come on, James, father of Harry!'

>Isn't it great... must be bad for children called Potter!

Nick.<

Here's a quote from Monty Python's Flying Circus that I saved (I have a .txt
document with tons of quotes from everywhere). Let's hope Harry Potter never really
becomes like this when he's older.

"It was a day like any other and Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Brainsample were a perfectly
ordinary couple, leading perfectly ordinary lives--the sort of people to whom
nothing extraordinary ever happened, and not the kind of people to be the center of
one the most astounding incidents in the history of mankind...so let's forget about
them and follow instead the destiny of this man (camera pans to businessman in
bowler hat and pinstripe suit)...Harold Potter, gardener and tax official, first
victum of Creatures from Another Planet,"--Narrator, MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS

Heh, I love Monty Python.

Another "Potter" sighting is one "It's a Wonderful Life" where the evil boss is
named Henry Potter.

From,

Anake


=====
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From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 11 13:26:45 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:26:45 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew parallels
In-Reply-To: <8ug6nm+mdlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ujhel+a34a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5595

Rita Winston wrote:
>Yes, but.... The Marauders at school could spend their time on 
practical jokes a la Fred and George, becoming Animagi for totally 
non-political reasons, mapping the school for the sake of sneaking
out to have fun. They didn't spend their school days saving the
world. They didn't tangle with Voldemort and the Death Eaters until 
after they left school. 
>
>Harry was a year and a half old when he defeated V and lost his 
parents. Dumbledore referred to the bad times as 'these eleven
years'. Unless Harry's parent had been out of school already ten
years by the time he was born, the bad times overlapped the
Marauders' 
school days. 
 
Sure, the rift between the Marauders would have become evident after 
their graduation.  This sort of goes back to the question of whether 
or not friendships, etc., can stand up to stress.  While in school, 
the Marauders were safe.  They were young enough to believe
themselves immortal and living under the protection of the invincible
Dumbledore.  They didn't suspect each other, because they had no need 
to be suspicious.  

The Marauders had seven years in which to get to know each other and 
form firm bonds, insulated from the outside strife.  Yet, when they 
were finally forced to fend for themselves, those seven years were
not enough.  Not only did they not trust each other enough to stick 
together, they didn't know each other well enough to pick the
traitor.  Going into book 5, we find Harry moving facing a similar 
test of friendships.  Harry will be at least 3 years younger than his 
father, when James first began to fight the Death Eaters, and he will 
have known his friends for 3 years less.  The question is, will he 
have formed stronger bonds?

One thing I have observed in the Marauders, particularly Lupin, is 
that they were, and are, much less forthcoming with each other and 
Dumbledore.  Harry, Ron and Hermione all break rules, but they do it 
for good reason, and when each book ends and they beat this year's 
baddie, they go to Dumbledore and confess their sins.  The Marauders 
broke the rules for their own benefit.  What's more, they didn't tell 
Dumbledore about it for around 20 years.  As an adult, Lupin was
still too ashamed to come clean.  Thus, even as teenagers, they were 
nurturing a culture of secrecy.  This may not have hurt them at the 
time, but, as adults, it did.  As adults, they were unable to tell
who the spy was; James and Sirius made Pettigrew the secret keeper, 
without telling Lupin; Lupin was able to accept Sirius as a traitor.  
How much could have been avoided, had they handled things differently?

But they didn't.  Having been partners in crime for seven years, what 
they had learned about each other was that they couldn't be trusted.  
Lupin knew that Sirius was quick tempered and ruthless, Sirius knew 
that Lupin was sly and secretive.  They didn't trust each other, 
because, in the immortal words of Bono, "It's no secret that a liar 
won't believe in anyone else.".

Having just hacked them to pieces, I feel the need to say that I do 
love my Marauders.  Really, I do.
Gwen.





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Nov 11 16:37:31 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:37:31 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More on Priori Incantatum & the Mistake Issue
In-Reply-To: <8ufdlj+38ga@eGroups.com>
References: <3A0B1C2F.F7E15998@texas.net> <8ufdlj+38ga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0hnq0t0li72itjgsuj8k03uctv1upmba32@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5596

On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 23:57:39 -0000, "Jim Flanagan"
<jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

>Hat jemand die deutsche Edition von HP und der Feuerkelch schon 
>gekauft?

In the German version the order is just like we know it: Cedric, Frank
Bryce, James, Lily. It has been sold for almost a month now and I
think it is based on the first british edition.

greetings,
Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Nov 11 16:46:34 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:46:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
In-Reply-To: <3A0CEAB6.1001C84F@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEFMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5597

Do you suppose these scenes were created from the movie storyboards?  They
are so incredibly detailed!  What are the figures made of... papier mache or
what?  It's almost like looking at stills from the movie set, if they were
doing it in claymation or something.  I am monumentally jealous that you get
to see this wonderful thing every day if you want to, Peg -- but NOT enough
to move to Minneapolis with winter coming on, LOL!

SML


-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:44 PM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)


You can see the folder of pictures at:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

I admit it.  I am obsessed.  I went back to the show today and got more
pictures.  I was concentrating on getting pictures I'd missed before,
and trying to get close ups.  I also played with the color balance on
some of them to try to make details clearer--as a result, the color may
seem a bit washed out.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Nov 11 16:55:09 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:55:09 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How errors creep in (LONG) (was Re: Wand Order  Issue)
In-Reply-To: <3A0CC6B7.4A6270DF@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEFMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5598

Peg, I laughed my butt off at this essay.  I'm NOT laughing at you, or other
hardworking authors -- you bring more joy than you know.  It's nice for you
to let people know all the agony that goes into a full-length novel that we
read on a rainy Sunday afternoon and then we say "When's the next one?" --
don't blame authors for wanting to STRANGLE the public every once in a
while, heh heh.


-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 9:11 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] How errors creep in (LONG) (was Re: Wand
Order Issue)





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 17:25:32 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:25:32 -0600
Subject: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
Message-ID: <3A0D810C.DEB6C1D9@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5599

I'm forwarding a message Heidi Tandy wrote to me:

Peg - I just went to a bookstore where I found SOME
9th printings with the change, and some without - I
can't post to the list though because this stupid
computer in the hotel won't let me access egroups &
egroups doesn't recognize my yahoo address - please
let the list know that either late tomorrow or on
monday I will scan the pages (yes, of COURSE I got the
copy with the changes) for everyone to see.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 17:31:57 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:31:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEFMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A0D828D.D9EE34D0@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5600

I suspect that you may be right.  I think we are seeing a sneak preview of the
"look" of the movie.  The show's design is approved by Warner Brothers, and I'm
sure that they want it to be consistent with the forthcoming movie.  It will be
interesting to compare these pictures later on to movie stills.

I can't say what the figures are made of--I didn't touch any.  But they do
extremely very life like, and in several cases, I did have an emotional reaction
to the scenes--the look on Harry's face descending the stairs at Paddington
station, the look on his face when he saw his parents in the mirror, and when he
was looking through the photobook in the hospital wing.

I won't be able to see it every day if the crowds swell as much as suspected.
Lunch breaks will be impossible, but perhaps I'll be able to see it a few more
times after Christmas.

We're supposed to get five inches of snow today.

Peg

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> Do you suppose these scenes were created from the movie storyboards?  They
> are so incredibly detailed!  What are the figures made of... papier mache or
> what?  It's almost like looking at stills from the movie set, if they were
> doing it in claymation or something.  I am monumentally jealous that you get
> to see this wonderful thing every day if you want to, Peg -- but NOT enough
> to move to Minneapolis with winter coming on, LOL!
>
> SML
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:44 PM
> To: HPforGrownups
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
>
> You can see the folder of pictures at:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/
>
> I admit it.  I am obsessed.  I went back to the show today and got more
> pictures.  I was concentrating on getting pictures I'd missed before,
> and trying to get close ups.  I also played with the color balance on
> some of them to try to make details clearer--as a result, the color may
> seem a bit washed out.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 11 17:34:13 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:34:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How errors creep in (LONG) (was Re: Wand Order   Issue)
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEFMCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A0D8314.30179E9C@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5601

I'm glad it gave you a laugh. That's what I intended.  I had a bit of doubt
after I sent it. . . I didn't want people to think I was simply bitching,
because I know that many people, including people on this list, would give their
eye teeth to be published.  But it is very hard work, and I think people don't
know how much work, so I thought I'd give you a blackly humorous view of it.

Peg

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> Peg, I laughed my butt off at this essay.  I'm NOT laughing at you, or other
> hardworking authors -- you bring more joy than you know.  It's nice for you
> to let people know all the agony that goes into a full-length novel that we
> read on a rainy Sunday afternoon and then we say "When's the next one?" --
> don't blame authors for wanting to STRANGLE the public every once in a
> while, heh heh.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 9:11 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] How errors creep in (LONG) (was Re: Wand
> Order Issue)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 18:37:12 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:37:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vote!
References: <20001111045955.24284.qmail@web6305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A0D91D7.E6EDF0B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5602

Ellen Glassie wrote:

> I, too, am ready to tear my hair out over the prospect
> of having our country run by someone with the basic
> intelligence of Cheez Whiz. Apologies to any Bush
> supporters, but he is just not exactly the sharpest
> quill on the porcupine. So, anyway, I'm with you. Tell
> me when it's going down.

Excuse me. I think this has gone a bit beyond the pale. Your "apologies to
Bush supporters" is not sufficient, without some documentation or reasoning
behind such a blanket, blatant, childish comment. I have repeatedly *not*
posted my personal opinions of Al Gore, because I understand there are Gore
supporters (some quite vocal) on this list and I wish neither to offend nor
to stir up emotion unneccesarily. I think political discussion is acceptable
when it discusses the positions on the issues and possible effects of one or
the other taking office, but I'm getting real, real tired of having my
intelligence questioned, albeit indirectly, by these emotional tirades.

Opinion, listmom?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 18:38:26 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:38:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
References: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A0D9222.AE851A4A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5603

John Walton wrote:

> This just in:
>
> "PROTESTS ORGANISING FOR SATURDAY, 11/11 AND 11/18 @ 1PM LOCAL TIMES.

Nor do I think this an appropriate forum for posting such sites for one side of
the issue, without posting similar sites for the other. I am not on this list to
be bombarded by Gore propaganda.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 18:47:15 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:47:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT: Pol) Online Petitions
References: <B63286FA.7E2C%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A0D9433.CFFC5726@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5604

John Walton wrote:

> Sorry if this is getting repetitive, but as a student of International
> Relations and a former student of Politics, I'm finding the grass-roots
> internet efforts to organise protests fascinating. Perhaps those who share
> this interest would be interested in the following:

I looked at PetitionOnline.com and was unsurprised to see more anti-Bush than
anti-Gore; seems like the cyber community in general is more for Gore. But
there are pro-Bush petitions there, ye other conservatives, if you're into
that sort of thing.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 18:55:37 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:55:37 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
References: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A0D9628.B8AC6F94@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5605

A factoid for those following this: I have heard that the fabled 19,000
discounted ballots included those that were handed in as mistakes by voters, who
then received a new ballot. It is not clear how many were actual double votes,
and how many were "mistake" ballots that were not counted because the voter
returned it and requested and completed a subsequent ballot.

--Amanda, lookin' for the cite




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 19:08:06 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:08:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
References: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to> <3A0D9628.B8AC6F94@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A0D9916.309E8C1F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5606

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> A factoid for those following this: I have heard that the fabled 19,000
> discounted ballots included those that were handed in as mistakes by voters, who
> then received a new ballot. It is not clear how many were actual double votes, and
> how many were "mistake" ballots that were not counted because the voter returned
> it and requested and completed a subsequent ballot.

Found it. It was reported by Mary Matalin on CNN's "Crossfire" this week.

Snip from the summary on Limbaugh's page:

Mary Matalin called a poll worker in Palm Beach County and guess what she learned?
These disputed 19,000 ballots were discarded. They came from people who went on to
recast their vote after having made a mistake - a mistake that was caught and
corrected.

In other words, it's not 19,000 people who double punched a ballot, turned it in,
then had it discovered and thrown out. These are people who knew that they had made
the mistake of double punching the ballot, requested a new ballot, and recast their
vote.
<end quote>

Amazing this isn't being reported, eh? she asks sarcastically. I checked the CNN
page but I can't do the download right to see it. Anybody with cable catch this? It
seems tremendously relevant to the furor going on down there, and I'd like to hear
it straight from the reporter.

--Amanda




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 11 19:14:07 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:14:07 -0000
Subject: (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3A0D9916.309E8C1F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8uk5pv+ge71@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5607

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Found it. It was reported by Mary Matalin on CNN's "Crossfire" this
> week.

Mary Matalin is NOT a reporter. She was George Sr's campaign 
operator in 1996. The correct job title is on the tip of my tongue -- 
anyway, the same job James Carville did for Bill, after which Matalin 
and Carville married, wrote a book, and went into the spin doctor 
business.




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 11 19:19:21 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:19:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
References: <8uk5pv+ge71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0D9BB8.1BE0ABF9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5608

Rita Winston wrote:

> > Found it. It was reported by Mary Matalin on CNN's "Crossfire" this
> > week.
>
> Mary Matalin is NOT a reporter. She was George Sr's campaign
> operator in 1996. The correct job title is on the tip of my tongue --
> anyway, the same job James Carville did for Bill, after which Matalin
> and Carville married, wrote a book, and went into the spin doctor
> business.

Okay, okay, it was *stated* by Mary Matalin. Fun with Semantics 101. Sorry.

--Amanda




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Nov 11 20:14:30 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:14:30 -0000
Subject: Fic Announcement
References: <8uih9c+ocng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003801c04c1c$aa3b9280$411178d5@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5609

Blaise,

Brilliant fic!  Your Snape is spot on.  Just one question - where did Lupin
take Wolfsbane before and are you going to/ have you already done a fic
where we find out?

Jinx




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Nov 11 20:32:53 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:32:53 -0800
Subject: Another Daily Profit Bulletin
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001111122529.00c81970@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5610

A reporter asked Viktor Krum how he could lose the Triwizard
Tournament to the much younger and much less experienced
Harry Potter.  Krum replied, "I vos out-prepared".


                                                 -- Dave




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Nov 11 20:31:43 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:31:43 -0000
Subject: Protests against George W. Voldemort/ Snape fans
References: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to> <3A0D9628.B8AC6F94@texas.net>
Message-ID: <006301c04c1e$9edd3180$411178d5@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5611

Look, just get Florida to have a re-vote and sort it all out once and for
all.

Then shut up about it.

However, on a Harry-related subject...

I've just noticed that a lot of the Snape fans are also conservative
politically.
(Apart from me.)

Is this just a coincidence?  Are right-wingers more cynical and does this
lead them to go for the most embittered cynical character in the books?

Just a thought.

Jinx

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort


> A factoid for those following this: I have heard that the fabled 19,000
> discounted ballots included those that were handed in as mistakes by
voters, who
> then received a new ballot. It is not clear how many were actual double
votes,
> and how many were "mistake" ballots that were not counted because the
voter
> returned it and requested and completed a subsequent ballot.
>
> --Amanda, lookin' for the cite
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 11 20:56:36 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:56:36 +0000
Subject: (OT:Pol) Re: Vote! & Re: Protests against GWV
In-Reply-To: <3A0D91D7.E6EDF0B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <B6336303.7E66%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5612

Amanda Lewanski at editor at texas.net wrote:

> Ellen Glassie wrote:
> 
>> I, too, am ready to tear my hair out over the prospect
>> of having our country run by someone with the basic
>> intelligence of Cheez Whiz. Apologies to any Bush
>> supporters, but he is just not exactly the sharpest
>> quill on the porcupine. So, anyway, I'm with you. Tell
>> me when it's going down.
> 
> Excuse me. I think this has gone a bit beyond the pale. Your "apologies to
> Bush supporters" is not sufficient, without some documentation or reasoning
> behind such a blanket, blatant, childish comment.

Calmness, please. It's well-documented (even on this list, thanks to quite a
few "Bushisms" being posted) that Bush does have the unfortunate knack to
make himself look stupid. "Families is when wings take dreams", for one. The
listmums have allowed some political discussion *without resorting to
personal attacks*. I'd consider your response, Amanda, a personal attack,
though I'd not consider the original message one.

> I have repeatedly *not*
> posted my personal opinions of Al Gore, because I understand there are Gore
> supporters (some quite vocal) on this list and I wish neither to offend nor
> to stir up emotion unneccesarily.

Well, you've just done that, so don't try and cop out ;)

> I think political discussion is acceptable
> when it discusses the positions on the issues and possible effects of one or
> the other taking office, but I'm getting real, real tired of having my
> intelligence questioned, albeit indirectly, by these emotional tirades.

So do as directed by listmums and others and delete the messages marked as
OT, especially those marked OT:Pol.

> Found it. It was reported by Mary Matalin on CNN's "Crossfire" this week.
> Snip from the summary on Limbaugh's page:

Hmm. Mary Matalin isn't a journalist, she's a Bush campaign pundit. And as
for Rush Limbaugh...you complain below about propaganda, yet present him as
a legitimate journalistic source. I'm sure the members of this list are
intelligent enough not to be taken in by that :)

> Nor do I think this an appropriate forum for posting such sites for one side
> of the issue, without posting similar sites for the other. I am not on this
> list to be bombarded by Gore propaganda.

1) Then don't read something as obviously-titled as "(OT: Pol) Protests
against George W. Voldemort". What did you expect, my granny's oatmeal
raisin cookie recipe? :)
2) It's not Gore propaganda. It's a *nonpartisan*, grass-roots effort :)
3) I pointed out obviously that the *single post* was supposed to be solely
informative, then urged anyone interested to attend. Hardly "bombarding".

Forget fuzzy math. How about fuzzy English? :)

--John, a wee bit narked

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Nov 11 22:07:54 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:07:54 +0000
Subject: Snape fans (OT:POL and a bit of ST:VOY)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001111220754.00703c34@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5613

Jinx wrote: 

>I've just noticed that a lot of the Snape fans are also conservative
>politically. (Apart from me.)

>Is this just a coincidence?  Are right-wingers more cynical and does this
>lead them to go for the most embittered cynical character in the books?
>
>Just a thought.

Erm, really?

With respect, Jinx, I think that's taking political stereotyping, not to
mention statistical extrapolation, a little too far.  I'm also a Snape fan
and far from being considered conservative politically. Some would say that
I *am* embittered and cynical, so you may have a point there, but let's not
get into that.  

Perhaps we should ask the Floridians (who, I must confess, I'd always
assumed to be the aliens with big hair and nostrils from Star Trek: Voyager)
to vote on whether or not they like Severus Snape. That should sort the
whole thing out once and for all.

Neil is finding his delete button increasingly attractive.

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 22:20:45 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:20:45 -0000
Subject: Vote!
In-Reply-To: <3A0D91D7.E6EDF0B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ukgnt+381n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5614

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I have repeatedly *not*
> posted my personal opinions of Al Gore, because I understand there 
are Gore
> supporters (some quite vocal) on this list and I wish neither to 
offend nor
> to stir up emotion unneccesarily. 

Oh, go ahead Amanda, we can take it.  Tell us what you think of Gore 
and why you like Bush so much.  I am sure people would be happy to 
listen to your opinions whether or not they agree with you.

>I think political discussion is acceptable
> when it discusses the positions on the issues and possible effects 
of one or
> the other taking office, but I'm getting real, real tired of having 
my
> intelligence questioned

No one is questioning your intelligence.  We are questioning George 
Dubya Bushs intelligence.  

>listmom?
You dont need to call listmom -- you are holding your own 
impressively well against the ambush from us anti-Bushers (Bush-
bashers?).

--Joywitch




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 22:27:51 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:27:51 -0000
Subject: Can we focus on Harry Please
Message-ID: <8ukh57+krmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5615

I know that I don't post that much but I do love reading the 
insights and thoughts of the group on a subject  which for me 
(and I guess many others) is an obsession, Harry Potter. I am 
however not enjoying the tirades of all parties on the election, 
this is Potter for adults, not lets complain that the election for the 
first time is a few votes apart. All this discussion is ridiculous 
there was an election on Nov. 7th you do not keep voting till the 
guy you want wins. There are many sports game that go into 
overtime and come down to one point the losing team doesn't 
sue the winning team for 3 more minutes! When the absentee 
ballots all come in I believe and I supported neither of these 2 
morons, will show Bush the popular winner (the military has 
always voted about 65% republican. Neither of these 2 men are 
the model of what a president should be, a person of character, 
understanding, and compassion, so as you spit at each other 
about who is the better man I tell you in all honesty neither. I 
would rather see another board where you can take the grass 
roots movement to over turn our political system to another 
forum. I would rather not take the time to delete multiple 
messages on a subject that has been beaten to death. I get 
enough of this fiasco off this board I am here to discuss the 
insights of Ron the seer and Hermoine the Head Girl and Harry 
Potter killer off Voldemort. I am sorry if this offends anyone as I 
am sure it does but here are a few insights that might help:

1) no voters rights were denied the justice department has 
stated it and will stick to it, in a court of law this will dictate the 
decision
2) The ballot in Palm Beach was legal and was used in other 
counties, if the people double punched it and didn't ask for a 
new ballot who's fault is it. Mistakes happen everyday and it 
effects our lives, we learn from our mistakes and make sure we 
don't do it again. If you are too stupid or too embarrassed to ask 
for a new ballot shame on you and you get what you deserve. I 
voted on a butterfly ballot and because I wanted to make sure I 
voted correctly I took my time and read each answer several 
times!!! As a matter of fact they changed the ballot in Palm beach 
2 elections ago (they voted for it) to have bigger type so seniors 
would have an easier time with it, so to get all 10 Pres. 
Candidates on one page they had to do it that way.
3) The world will not stop revolving if either one of these retards 
is let into office, if the lying, cheating, charming demarcate wins 
the economy will  tank, and we will be taxed to death, not to 
mention his wife will try to ban everything under the sun (she is 
one of those that is for banning Harry Potter in schools, so be 
careful). If the drunken, dumb, jittery republican wins Abortion 
rights will probably go to the state, where 32 states constitutions 
protect the rights of a woman's body as personal property and 
have the right to choose, and by the way the Bush's lead by 
mother Barbara detest the thought of banning anything as the 
first amendment must be protected at all costs.

So that it is clear I feel neither of these men are of presidential 
caliber but I don't like Tipper at all she wants to ban violence in 
movies, music, and books, and I guarantee she will try and keep 
America's youth free from violence, witchcraft, and what ever else 
scares her when she goes to sleep. Sorry I had to rant but I want 
to discuss Harry who I find a great relief from all this bickering.

Sorry Dave





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Nov 11 22:28:06 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:28:06 -0000
Subject: Snape fans (OT:POL and a bit of ST:VOY)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001111220754.00703c34@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8ukh5m+so6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5616

ROTFL! 
Pippin (who is very glad that Severus wasn't on the ballot, 'cause if 
he was somebody in Palm Beach would've voted for him by mistake)

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
 
> 
> >Perhaps we should ask the Floridians (who, I must confess, I'd
always
> assumed to be the aliens with big hair and nostrils from Star Trek:
Voyager)
> to vote on whether or not they like Severus Snape. 





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 22:31:03 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:31:03 -0000
Subject: box calendar
Message-ID: <8ukhb7+ucuf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5617

Does anyone have the box calendar?  I saw it on the B&N website.  The 
reason I am asking is that I HATE the artwork on the wall calendar, 
but I still really want an HP calendar.  It looks like the artwork on 
the box calendar is by Mary Grandpre, but it is hard to tell from the 
picture what exactly is inside.

--Joywitch




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 22:32:07 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:32:07 -0000
Subject: (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <8uk5pv+ge71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukhd7+9sda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5618

Mary Matalin she was his senior startegist she is married to 
James Carvell who was Bill Clintons, do you think they are 
talking right now?

Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 22:35:22 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:35:22 -0000
Subject: Can we focus on Harry Please
In-Reply-To: <8ukh57+krmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukhja+ueac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5619

Hey Dave, I found your post to be a quite unfair.  For someone who is 
arguing that we focus on HP and not on the elections, you sure do go 
on about the elections.  A little hypocritical, IMHO.  Plus you 
really need to use a spellchecker and proofread your post if you want 
us to be able to understand what you say.




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 22:35:25 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:35:25 -0000
Subject: box calendar
In-Reply-To: <8ukhb7+ucuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukhjd+ktgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5620

Joy 

The best calender I have seen is the neither the wall or the box, 
but there is a journal style (spiral bound) that is great I bought 
them out when i found them at the calender store in the mall in 
San JOse on a biz trip (I know a calender store kinda reminds 
me of the scotch tape store of SNL fame)

If you can't find one e-mail me and I will get one to you as I have 
plenty

Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 11 22:40:41 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:40:41 -0000
Subject: Matalin/Carville, was (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <8ukhd7+9sda@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukhta+f9mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5621

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:
> Mary Matalin she was his senior startegist she is married to 
> James Carvell who was Bill Clintons, do you think they are 
> talking right now?
> 

I have never understand how they could maintain a relationship with 
such fundamental political disagreement, but apparently others seem 
to think that it is possible, since I hear there is fanfic which 
pairs Hermione Granger with Draco Malfoy - a similar pairing.  Maybe 
thats how the HP books will end - Voldemort will fall in love with 
Professor McGonagall and they will move to a 3 bedroom house in 
Hogsburbia.

--Joywitch




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 22:45:03 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:45:03 -0000
Subject: Can we focus on Harry Please
In-Reply-To: <8ukhja+ueac@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uki5f+fido@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5622

Please point out my spelling errors as I wrote that in Word and 
ran spell, and grammar check. I think it was not unfair I delete 
more messages then I read lately and I am tired of using the 
delete button. I think that is very fair!!! I suggested that a new 
forum for political discussions be made or you can go to the 
thousands that have all ready been made to discuss a topic 
which of recent, has become a point of contention rather then fun 
argument. My point was that neither of these men are great, nor 
are they bad enough to be compared to Voldemort (who is evil). If 
this is going to become Potter fans that want to quibble over 
politicos fine I will gladly go to another board, although I enjoy 
much of the insight here, as I think this is a higher caliber of fan. 
But so be it, I don't need to be insulted, I simply want to discuss 
Harry, so keep arguing I will come to the boards to read the rants 
and will stop getting e-mails. I am sure sorry to see so many 
attack people because they don't share their feelings, isn't that 
what we are trying to stop with all these book burners? Should 
we not take the time to think about what we are doing and 
saying, sad really.




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 11 22:57:08 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:57:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Related Work Story
Message-ID: <20001111225708.2544.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5623

--- Nick Mitchell <nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com> wrote:

> Isn't it great... must be bad for children called Potter!


And what about Harry's long lost sister, Joey (Dawson's Creek)? <g>

But seriously, several months ago, I did a "Harry Potter" search on the
Barnes and Noble site.  In addition to all the available versions of all
the HP books, it brought up a business (IIRC) book by an author named Harry
Potter.  On one hand, I felt sorry for him for all the jokes he's probably
been getting.  On the other hand, if he ever hosts seminars or anything
like that, he probably gets a great turnout <g>.

Melanie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Nov 11 22:56:49 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:56:49 -0600
Subject: From the ListMom re: OT Discussions
Message-ID: <3A0DCEB1.5A0916E6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5624

Hi --

Hmmm. . . . things seem in danger of degenerating.  I guess I'll make a
few observations, not that I'm all-knowing (but someone's got to be in
charge!  <g>).

1.  I originally made the call to allow discussions about the U.S.
election because it strikes me that we are living through a truly
pivtoal event in American history.  I've been watching CNN quite alot
during the daytime this week, and so I'm finding that topic to be fairly
at the forefront of what I'm thinking at any given moment.  I think the
same is true for others in this group.

For those reasons, I didn't (and still don't) want to necessarily cut
off the ability for people to post a news flash, an opinion or
observation, etc.   I do think it's absolutely 100% necessary that the
subject heading be appropriately labelled so that people who only want
to read about HP discussions can continue to do so.  I'm also starting
to think that this electoral mess is not going to get resolved anytime
real soon.  Therefore, it's possible that maybe we should just ban it,
even in OT posts, if it's going to cause dissension & bad feelings.  My
original thought was that it would all be resolved in a day or 2, so
might as well let people comment on it.  If it's really going to go on
for weeks or even months, that's another matter entirely.  We're also
probably boring our friends across the pond, who may have long since
lost interest in our little mess over here.

2.  This is my opinion & just my observation:  I think it's pretty clear
over the last week or so that a majority of our members are moderate to
liberal on the political spectrum.  Or, I should say that of the members
who have made comments or been vocal/out-spoken, those members have been
overwhelmingly liberal.  This doesn't strike me as particularly odd for
whatever reason.

So . . . . if the posts pertaining to politics or the U.S. elections,
etc. are strictly labeled 0T or OFF-TOPIC and if you open those posts
and read them, you should be prepared that more times than not, the view
that you will read in the post may be moderate to liberal in viewpoint.
Similarly, those of us in the liberal camp should be prepared that
members may express conservative viewpoints with which we will
disagree.  In other words, reading the OT posts is done at your own
peril so to speak.  It's not what a constitutional lawyer would call the
"captive audience" problem.  If you don't want to read the OT posts (or
you don't wish to risk reading something that you might disagree with),
don't read them -- you're perfectly free to just ignore them.

3.  My other thought is that my original intention pretty well extended
to include things like Heidi's reports from Miami on the status of
things, the effects of the election on things like book-banning, humor
(such as the Bailicroft commune thread), etc. - not per se Bush-bashing
or Gore-bashing and certainly not engaging in back & forth dialogue with
one another in a contentious manner.  As I'm writing this, I think I'm
starting to believe that the nature of cyberspace debate makes it
unlikely that we can continue the practice of commenting on the news in
OT posts without expecting disagreements to arise.

The purpose of the group is and remains the discussion of HP.  We have
enough disagreements that crop up over HP, without adding politics to
the mix.

I've written all this and not made any real decision about whether I
ought to conclude by saying: "No more OT political posts -- period" or
"Read OT political posts at your own risk and keep personal attacks out
of it."  The latter is perhaps hard to do, so .... I'm leaning toward
the former.  I'm happy to take comments for a short while before I just
outright ban it though.

For example, what about Joywitch's Daily Prophet piece from a few days
ago?  I perceived it to be rather liberal in viewpoint.  Is that
political?  If we ban OT posts, are we banning this type of parody as
well?  It could be hard to draw the line in some cases I suppose.

So . . . .if you have thoughts, feel free to express them.  If you post
to the group, do so with a *clearly-labelled* subject heading.  <g>  You
can also email me privately.  I've already weathered one cyberspace
conflict and am feeling rather thick-skinned today . . . so what the
hey.

Penny






From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Nov 11 22:59:51 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:59:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] box calendar
References: <8ukhb7+ucuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0DCF67.E8C2B40A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5625

Hi --

I'd be interested to know about the artwork on the box calendar as
well.  Like Joywitch, I think the art on the wall calendar is just
terrible (Harry looks stoned!).

Penny

Joywitch wrote:

> Does anyone have the box calendar?  I saw it on the B&N website.  The
> reason I am asking is that I HATE the artwork on the wall calendar,
> but I still really want an HP calendar.  It looks like the artwork on
> the box calendar is by Mary Grandpre, but it is hard to tell from the
> picture what exactly is inside.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
>                       eGroups Sponsor

>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Nov 11 23:00:00 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:00:00 -0000
Subject: Spelling mistakes / word (basically OT)
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEDBCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5626

Dave wrote: "Please point out my spelling errors as I wrote that in Word and
ran spell, and grammar check."

The following are some of the mistakes I picked up on:

'Hermoine the Head Girl' - Hermione.
'demarcate' - Democrat. Capital letter needed as it refers to the Democrat
Party.
'Economy will  tank' - I just have no idea what this means (if it is an
American phrase then I apologise).
'...changed the ballot in Palm beach 2 elections ago...' - Palm Beach, as it
is a place name it needs the capital letter.

I am sure others will point out some more mistakes.

Just because Word has said it is spelt correctly and that the grammar is
perfect does not mean that it is. Correctly spelt words do not mean that you
are using the correct word.

Simon





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Nov 11 23:08:52 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:08:52 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] box calendar
In-Reply-To: <8ukhb7+ucuf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001111150528.00c52790@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5627

At 10:31 PM 11/11/00 +0000, Joywitch wrote:
>Does anyone have the box calendar?  I saw it on the B&N website.  The
>reason I am asking is that I HATE the artwork on the wall calendar,
>but I still really want an HP calendar.

I dislike all the artwork for Time-Warner's merchandise.  I swear, the
artwork linked to from Jenna's page (esp. BJ's and Becky's) is a million
times more inspired.



                                                 -- Dave




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Nov 11 23:07:05 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:07:05 -0600
Subject: CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS
Message-ID: <3A0DD119.C7BA88F5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5628

Hi --

While I was composing my opus on whether we should continue the OT posts
or not, I guess several other posts got made that have my decision a bit
more clear.

That's it folks.  NO MORE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS.  Not even if marked
OT.  End of story.

I will exercise banning authority on any violators (a warning for a
first violation; a one-week suspension for any violations thereafter).
Sorry.  I hate being mean, but clearly, this is degenerating.  We're all
here to talk about HP.

So . . . that's my final word on the subject.

Penny




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Nov 11 23:21:51 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:21:51 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEDCCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5629

Peg wrote: "But they do extremely very life like, and in several cases, I
did have an emotional reaction to the scenes--the look on Harry's face
descending the stairs at Paddington station, the look on his face when he
saw his parents in the mirror, and when he was looking through the photobook
in the hospital wing."

Thanks for posting the pictures. It looks wonderful.
I did have a little comment - it was hard to tell from the photo.
Dudley has blonde hair but yet it seems to be quite dark in the picture.


Peg wrote: "We're supposed to get five inches of snow today."

I think that is how much rain I have had here today!

Simon (who has just sat here for a couple of minutes trying to work out why
he was getting no sound from the cd he was playing - only to remember that
the speakers were turned off!)




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 23:26:47 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:26:47 -0000
Subject: box calendar
In-Reply-To: <3A0DCF67.E8C2B40A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8ukkjn+nb9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5630

I have the Box Calender and if you didn't like the wall version you 
will like the box (or desk) version less. The artist is the same, but 
there isn't art on everyday, there are mazes and trivia questions, 
and games on some. It is fun and of course it sits on my desk 
(thanks goodness I'm the boss and they can only call me crazy 
behind my back), but as I said earlier the book calender is my 
favorite. I have also taken to the Journals and now conduct 
meetings with them (it is great to have a modern day Peter Pan). 
On Monday I will post the printer and artist  (I think it is all the 
same person, not Mary Grandpre, too bad) of the book style 
calender.

Dave




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 11 23:39:07 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:39:07 -0000
Subject: CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS
In-Reply-To: <3A0DD119.C7BA88F5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uklar+utqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5631

Thanks Penny 




From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 11 23:44:59 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:44:59 +0000
Subject: (OT) Spelling (Re: Can we focus on Harry Please)
In-Reply-To: <8ukh57+krmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6338A7B.7E87%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5632

Okay, Dave, since you asked for a spelling/grammar critique...

SPELLING

<snip> not lets complain that the election </snip>: "lets" should be
"let's": it's a contraction of the first person plural (let us) rather than
third person singular (he lets).

<snip> many sports game that </snip>: "game" should be "games": plural
rather than singular.

<snip> republican </snip>: Should be "Republican": proper noun.

<snip> Hermoine the Head Girl </snip>: should be "Hermione".

<snip> Harry Potter killer off Voldemort </snip>: "off" should be "of".

<snip> the ballot in Palm beach </snip>: "beach" should be capitalised as it
is part of a proper noun.

<snip> demarcate wins </snip>: Should be "Democrat": wrong word (possibly
due to the Almighty Spell Checker O'Doom?) and capitalised.
 
<snip> republican wins Abortion rights </snip>: Should either be "Abortion
Rights" or "abortion rights", not a mishmash of both.

<snip> where 32 states constitutions </snip>: Should be "states'
Constitutions": possessive and proper noun.

<snip> first amendment </snip>: Should be "First Amendment": proper noun.

<snip> Sorry Dave </snip>: Should have some form of punctuation: "Sorry,
Dave", "Sorry. -Dave"

GRAMMAR

*Numerous run-on and poorly-punctuated sentences, including:

" All this discussion is ridiculous
there was an election on Nov. 7th you do not keep voting till the
guy you want wins." (Needs to be punctuated with commas or split into two
sentences)

"There are many sports game that go into
overtime and come down to one point the losing team doesn't
sue the winning team for 3 more minutes!" (Ditto)

"When the absentee 
ballots all come in I believe and I supported neither of these 2
morons, will show Bush the popular winner (the military has
always voted about 65% republican." (The clause "and I supported neither of
these 2 morons" should be punctuated as such, either with parentheses,
commas or dashes. The following clause in parentheses also needs a closing
parenthesis)

"1) no voters rights were denied the justice department has
stated it and will stick to it, in a court of law this will dictate the
decision" (Needs to be punctuated with commas or split into two sentences)

LAYOUT

During a three-page (for my computer which is set at 'net standard, since I
do a lot of proofing online) email, you used only three paragraphs. In
comparison, Peg's "How errors creep in" used seven in the same space. This
email uses far more as it deals with each point in a paragraph.

This is useful because (a) it allows people to more easily isolate each
point and reply to it; and (b) it's much easier on the eye, especially if
using an online mail client like Yahoo! or Hotmail.
 
=====================================================

Just as an aside, I used to be a teacher's aide with some of the junior
classes at school. If Dave's email had been handed to me to mark in an
English class, I would have given it a C or D at 13-year-old level. I know,
this isn't an English class, but as a group of literary-minded people in a
text-based email situation, we're sure to (even unconsciously) judge
people's intelligence on the basis of their text.

If you're going to put forward opinions, people will take you much more
seriously (not to mention understand you better) if you spell, punctuate and
otherwise present your thoughts correctly. Take the following examples:

1) if u dont use puntucashun better then this peeple wont lissen 2 u.

2) If you, don't use. Grammar better than that; People won't listen to you.

3) if u use 2 much abbrs then ppl wont lisn 2 u.

If anyone is looking for some pointers (and a bit of humour as well!), check
out Holy Mother Grammatica's Guide to Good Writing:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/5307/guide.htm

==

I hope nobody considered the above mean or nasty. Dave *did* ask for a
correction, and I thought it might be useful to point out some common
errors. Let this be an eye-opener not to rely completely on spell-checks
(and especially not on grammar checks, which are abominably dreadful) and
instead proof-read your posts for clarity and intelligibility before sending
:)

Cheers,

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 12 00:56:05 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:56:05 -0600
Subject: "economy will tank"--as in fall over dead!  (OT)
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEDBCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <028501c04c43$56d6a040$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5633

"economy will tank"--as in fall over dead!

Like we are hoping for Voldie some day soon, and hoping to avoid for Ron,
Hagrid, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, etc....






----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon J. Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: "HPforGU" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:00 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spelling mistakes / word (basically OT)


> Dave wrote: "Please point out my spelling errors as I wrote that in Word
and
> ran spell, and grammar check."
>
> The following are some of the mistakes I picked up on:
>
> 'Hermoine the Head Girl' - Hermione.
> 'demarcate' - Democrat. Capital letter needed as it refers to the Democrat
> Party.
> 'Economy will  tank' - I just have no idea what this means (if it is an
> American phrase then I apologise).
> '...changed the ballot in Palm beach 2 elections ago...' - Palm Beach, as
it
> is a place name it needs the capital letter.
>
> I am sure others will point out some more mistakes.
>
> Just because Word has said it is spelt correctly and that the grammar is
> perfect does not mean that it is. Correctly spelt words do not mean that
you
> are using the correct word.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov 12 00:00:33 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:00:33 +0000
Subject: From the ListMom re: OT Discussions
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001112000033.00a70780@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5634

At 16:56 Penny you wrote:

>I've written all this and not made any real decision about whether I
>ought to conclude by saying: "No more OT political posts -- period" or
>"Read OT political posts at your own risk and keep personal attacks out
>of it."  The latter is perhaps hard to do, so .... I'm leaning toward
>the former.  I'm happy to take comments for a short while before I just
>outright ban it though.
>
>For example, what about Joywitch's Daily Prophet piece from a few days
>ago?  I perceived it to be rather liberal in viewpoint.  Is that
>political?  If we ban OT posts, are we banning this type of parody as
>well?  It could be hard to draw the line in some cases I suppose.

I agree with your observation that the vocal sector of this group appears to
be largely centre-to-left, but we should maintain a level of respect for
those that wish to express other views.  I suggest that if there's a
political slant to an on-topic post or an HP-related take on current
affairs, that's fine.  After all, many of the on-topic issues we discuss
have a political undercurrent and differing political views have led to some
interesting, if heated, debates.  I can only speak for myself, but it might
be time to clamp down on the political posts which have scant relevance to
Harry Potter. It's not that I'm bored with hearing about the aftermath of
the US election, but I can get the news live from CNN or BBC News24 or
elsewhere.   

Penny, I supported your original decision to let these politics threads run,
because you are in the midst of an historic situation and, as you say, it's
easy for people to ignore posts if they are marked OT. I'd quite understand
if you wanted to let it ride; just don't put it to a vote, the result might
end up "too close to call"!

Neil 

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 12 00:05:15 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:05:15 -0000
Subject: (OT) Spelling (Re: Can we focus on Harry Please)
In-Reply-To: <B6338A7B.7E87%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8ukmrr+ubqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5635

I know I asked for it, and I am glad to see that people are more 
concerned with the spelling and grammar. This is a shame 
because you miss the meaning of what is said by those of us 
who can't type, and rely on assistants. I however tend to write like 
I speak, and I don't say "comma" when there should be a gap in 
my speech, but simply hand tapes to my assistant and ask her 
to type it out, good news she taught English at UCLA before 
working for me. The bad news is I can't ask her to type my posts 
as she has enough to do with all the daily chores she has to do 
for me in the real world. I would like to contribute to this group, 
and would rather it said great point instead of hey you didn't 
capitalize Harry's name or it is Hermoine not Hermione (I know I 
am on my sixth reading of the series).

So I will not ask you all to correct me, because I know my 
strengths are running a company not typing or taking time to 
reread my posts when I am upset. So the question is can we not 
correct my grammar (I will hire a writing tutor on Monday) if I were 
to post good points?

Thanks for your time,

Dave





From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 12 00:21:52 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:21:52 -0000
Subject: Back to Harry and a question?
Message-ID: <8uknr0+njf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5636

I was talking to my friend, and we agreed that Percy would never 
go to Voldemort's side. He will end up like Barty Sr., which lends 
itself nicely to throwing one of his brothers in Azkaban (I like the 
theory of George, or was it Fred?). 

We also discussed the problem of the inner circle of Voldemort. 
After both of us finished Blaise's awesome fic, we couldn't figure 
out why Snape didn't know that Sirius was innocent, and Peter 
was the informer. Snape says in the GoF that when Voldemort 
touched the mark they all apparated to his side to form the circle 
of Death Eaters. He would have seen Peter there in the circle, 
and not Sirius. Sirius was supposed to be Voldemort's second 
in command, a position that no Death Eater wouldn't know he 
held, so we were confused. Does anyone have a theory? 

Thanks,

Dave





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov 12 00:36:53 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:36:53 +0000
Subject: (OT) Spelling etc
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001112003653.00a84d8c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5637

At 00:05 Dave wrote:

>I know I asked for it, and I am glad to see that people are more 
>concerned with the spelling and grammar. This is a shame 
>because you miss the meaning of what is said by those of us 
>who can't type, and rely on assistants. 

Forgive me for asking, but is this because you are physically unable to type
or because you are not a proficient typist?  

I however tend to write like 
>I speak, and I don't say "comma" when there should be a gap in 
>my speech, but simply hand tapes to my assistant and ask her 
>to type it out, good news she taught English at UCLA before 
>working for me. 

I think people were a little hard on you, Dave, but the fact remains that
your posts are rather difficult to read.  If your assistant taught English
at UCLA, surely she would know better than to type something out in one long
string?  Alternatively, couldn't you just press return a couple of times
when she hands you the final draft?
  
When this club was at Yahoo, we had a right old ding-dong over people
writing posts without punctuation and in lower case.  You'll note the the
club's FAQ page includes some guidance on this area, which largely arose
after that debate.  It might sound like people are wagging their fingers at
you, but when we have 100+ messages a day to get through, it's nice if the
writing flows.

>So I will not ask you all to correct me, because I know my 
>strengths are running a company not typing or taking time to 
>reread my posts when I am upset. So the question is can we not 
>correct my grammar (I will hire a writing tutor on Monday) if I were 
>to post good points?

I run a company too, but I can still manage to bash out a few readable
lines. People might not correct you again, but you might find that they
don't respond either.  Seriously, if you really don't have time to type out
or check your own writing, my advice would be to keep your posts quite short.  

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Nov 12 00:39:39 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:39:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] box calendar
Message-ID: <v02140b1eb63397022690@[140.254.112.196]>

No: HPFGUIDX 5638

>Does anyone have the box calendar?  I saw it on the B&N website.  The
>reason I am asking is that I HATE the artwork on the wall calendar,
>but I still really want an HP calendar.  It looks like the artwork on
>the box calendar is by Mary Grandpre, but it is hard to tell from the
>picture what exactly is inside.
>
>--Joywitch
>
So far all the artwork on all the merchandise, including the wall calendar
and the student planner calednar, have been the same artwork.  I didn't
like it at first either but I admit it's really starting to grow on me.

There are a few really good illos in the student planner, such as Harry
looking in the Mirror of Erised and seeing his family, and one cute one of
Ron and Harry under the Invisibility Cloak.

I doubt the box calendar is suddenly different artwork.

Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

     "Out.  For.  A.  Walk....Bitch."  --Spike

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist Director's Cut"
Nighttable:  "The Cases that Haunt Us" by John Douglas
Carryalong book:  "The Golden Compass" by Philip Pullman
***************************************************





From john at walton.to  Sun Nov 12 00:39:24 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:39:24 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to Harry and a question?
In-Reply-To: <8uknr0+njf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B633973C.7E91%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5639

eliasberg at ioc.net at eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> We also discussed the problem of the inner circle of Voldemort.
> After both of us finished Blaise's awesome fic, we couldn't figure
> out why Snape didn't know that Sirius was innocent, and Peter
> was the informer. Snape says in the GoF that when Voldemort
> touched the mark they all apparated to his side to form the circle
> of Death Eaters. He would have seen Peter there in the circle,
> and not Sirius. Sirius was supposed to be Voldemort's second
> in command, a position that no Death Eater wouldn't know he
> held, so we were confused. Does anyone have a theory?

I'm pretty sure that it's established somewhere in the GoF Pensieve scene
that the entire membership of the DEs was a secret from all except Voldy
himself. That way, we can extrapolate, if/when members were captured, they
couldn't reveal more than their own "cell". It works the same way as
resistance fighters/terrorists/whatever you call them depending on which
side you're on. A group of 2-5 works better than a group of 100 because one
traitor/informant in the group negates them all.

Ergo, does Snape actually *say* or is he actually shown to *know* that
Sirius was his second-in-command? I'm thinking that Dumbledore (and others)
would have kept Snape's involvement if not to himself then restricted to a
very need-to know group.

My four thousand euros (two cents).

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Nov 12 00:42:35 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:42:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] box calendar
Message-ID: <v02140b1fb63397b4505f@[140.254.112.196]>

No: HPFGUIDX 5640

>Hi --
>
>I'd be interested to know about the artwork on the box calendar as
>well.  Like Joywitch, I think the art on the wall calendar is just
>terrible (Harry looks stoned!).
>
There's ONE illo in which Harry looks stoned.  The rest of them are
actually pretty good, despite the scar issue.

The two ones of him playing Quidditch are good, as is the one of our heroes
trying to catch the winged keys.  I've already mentioned the Erised and
Invisibility cloak pictures that I like, and the one with Snape in the
potions dungeon is good too.

Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

     "Out.  For.  A.  Walk....Bitch."  --Spike

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist Director's Cut"
Nighttable:  "The Cases that Haunt Us" by John Douglas
Carryalong book:  "The Golden Compass" by Philip Pullman
***************************************************





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 12 01:43:15 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:43:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to Harry and a question?
References: <8uknr0+njf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <030701c04c49$ee9f1320$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5641

Ok, here's something I don't recall hearing mentioned.  I don't have a copy
in front of me of GoF, but weren't some of the circle hooded, hence we
couldn't see their faces?  Maybe this is an ongoing habit--hence not seeing
faces of the other DE's when you are in the circle (Snape wouldn't know it
was Peter)?
----- Original Message -----
From: <eliasberg at ioc.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 6:21 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to Harry and a question?


> I was talking to my friend, and we agreed that Percy would never
> go to Voldemort's side. He will end up like Barty Sr., which lends
> itself nicely to throwing one of his brothers in Azkaban (I like the
> theory of George, or was it Fred?).
>
> We also discussed the problem of the inner circle of Voldemort.
> After both of us finished Blaise's awesome fic, we couldn't figure
> out why Snape didn't know that Sirius was innocent, and Peter
> was the informer. Snape says in the GoF that when Voldemort
> touched the mark they all apparated to his side to form the circle
> of Death Eaters. He would have seen Peter there in the circle,
> and not Sirius. Sirius was supposed to be Voldemort's second
> in command, a position that no Death Eater wouldn't know he
> held, so we were confused. Does anyone have a theory?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Nov 12 01:10:44 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:10:44 -0700
Subject: The Sin of Coveting
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEGFCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5642

I'm telling ya ... I WANT one of those figurines of Hagrid from the Dayton
dept store show!  I feel like getting creative and making one for myself!
Let's see... how many bags of pillow stuffing would it take to make a
LIFE-SIZE doll of Hagrid?  Ever see those gigantic stuffed toys from FAO
Schwartz?  Well, double that or triple it -- YEAH!  I'd like to leave him
standing in one corner of a darkened room to scare the **** out of
intruders.

Imagine being one of the lucky creative drones who got to work on that
project!  If you haven't taken the time yet to peek at some of the photos
Peg put up, give yourself a treat and do so -- it'll keep you humming during
the long wait for the movie.

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

or

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/
if the first link gets cut off.




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 01:12:48 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:12:48 -0000
Subject: Back to Harry and a question?
In-Reply-To: <8uknr0+njf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukqqg+k54j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5643

> After both of us finished Blaise's awesome fic...

Okay, I have GOT to read this!

> ...we couldn't figure out why Snape didn't know that Sirius was 
innocent, and Peter was the informer. Snape says in the GoF that when 
Voldemort touched the mark they all apparated to his side to form the 
circle of Death Eaters. He would have seen Peter there in the circle, 
and not Sirius. 

Of the Death Eaters who apparated, I doubt there were any spies 
amongst them.  Snape says the Mark is there, both so that the Death 
Eaters can be called to their Master, and so they can distinguish
each other.  Thus, all the Death Eaters who apparated had the Death 
Mark.  Would a spy have such a tell-tale feature?

> Sirius was supposed to be Voldemort's second in command, a position 
that no Death Eater wouldn't know he held, so we were confused. Does 
anyone have a theory? 

What was actually said was the Sirius was to become second in
command, once Voldemort had taken over.  In the mean time, it is 
reasonable to assume the identity of a spy, particularly one 
positioned to close to Dumbledore, would be kept a secret.  If all of 
the Death Eaters who apparated in GoF are part of the inner circle, 
this is a bloody big inner circle.  Voldemort isn't stupid and he 
knows about maintaining control.  I'm sure there are a great many 
things he kept from his Death Eaters, even his trusted ones, in the 
name of power.  Why would he tell people as slimy as Lucius Malfoy,
or as presumably dense as Crabbe and Goyle, who his best-placed spy 
was?

Also, as I recall, we got the "second in command" story from Stan 
Shunpine, the Knight Bus conductor.  I'd say that this is a bit of 
hysteria-forged folk law.  Not only was Sirius never a Death Eater, 
but the true spy, Pettigrew, was far from leadership material.  I 
doubt that people like Snape or Crouch Snr. would have taken it too 
seriously, so the fact no Death Eater knew about Sirius would have 
been a pretty poor defense.

That's it.  
Cheers, 
Gwen.




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 12 01:31:30 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:31:30 -0000
Subject: Back to Harry and a question?
In-Reply-To: <8ukqqg+k54j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ukrti+nb0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5644

But Voldemort looked at Peter's arm and saw the dark mark 
upon it. He was a spy and it was there.

D




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 02:36:06 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:36:06 -0000
Subject: HP audio book review
Message-ID: <8ukvmm+acc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5645

In tomorrows Washington Post Book World, there is an article about 
what audio books to listen to.  It reviews new audio tapes, mostly of 
out of print books, and also has a paragraph about the HP tapes.  The 
review is by Katherine A. Powers, who is a columnist for the Boston 
Globe.  Here is the paragraph:

>>>In any case, I could see hours of happy motoring with my children 
were we equipped with [another book she reviews]...Still, we've had 
other happy, almost bickerless trips listening to J.K. Rowling's 
Harry Potterbooks.  Through certainly not out of prins, nor likely to 
be for a long, long, time, they are almost, if not actually, better 
in audio form; al least this is true of Jim Dale's reading of the 
novels for Listening Library.  He has a voice and manner for the 
character that smplify their crtochets without distorting them.  The 
Dursleys are as self-righteous and devoid of charity as so many bowls 
of cold porridge; Professor McGonagall is infused with Caledonian 
brusqueness; Draco Malfoy's snobbish drawl drips venom, Snape seethes 
with all the bitter menace of the Sheriff of Nottingham.  In Hagrid, 
Dale give us stout-hearted yokel tones; in Hermione Granger, bossy, 
bossy, dictates; in Harry, limber youth tinged with a little of the 
hobbledehoy.<<<

Personally, I think this is a stupid review.  What kind of analogy is 
*self-righteous and devoid of charity as so many bowls of cold 
porridge*.  And where does she get off calling Harry *tinged with a 
little of the hobbledehoy*?  And, IMHO, Jim Dales Hermione is more 
whiny than bossy.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 02:50:06 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:50:06 -0000
Subject: (OT) Spelling (Re: Can we focus on Harry Please)
In-Reply-To: <B6338A7B.7E87%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8ul0gu+dm5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5646

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
[a very lengthy spelling/grammar correction of a previous post.]

Wow, John, you are quite a proofreader.  I am impressed.  You wouldnt 
want to proofread my dissertation, would you...its only around 350 
pages or so. <g>

Seriously, though, I have to concur that good writing skills are 
essential here.  I know that I wind up skipping a lot of posts because

1) they consist of one long paragraph
2) they are full of abbreviations and catch phrases which are 
incomprehensible to me (other than the common internet shorthand like 
IIRC, BTW, etc.)
3) they contain rambling, run-on sentences
4) they have little or no puncuation
5) there are too many spelling or grammar errors, or both

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 02:56:14 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:56:14 -0000
Subject: CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS
In-Reply-To: <3A0DD119.C7BA88F5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8ul0se+ge1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5647

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:

> That's it folks.  NO MORE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS.  Not even if marked
> OT.  End of story.
> 

I am sorry if it is my personal bad behavior that has led to this.  
<hangs head in shame>  And I was really looking forward to having a 
pleasant little mud-slinging contest with Amanda, too.  Oh well.  Why 
is it that even though I am a grownup I am still in trouble with mom? 
(Please do not answer that question.)

Does this mean I am not allowed to write any more Daily Prophet 
articles?

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 03:00:41 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:00:41 -0000
Subject: (OT) Spelling (Re: Can we focus on Harry Please)
In-Reply-To: <8ukmrr+ubqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ul14p+rg7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5648

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:
> I know I asked for it, and I am glad to see that people are more 
> concerned with the spelling and grammar. This is a shame 
> because you miss the meaning of what is said by those of us 
> who can't type

No.  The problem is, Dave, that we miss the meaning because the 
meaning is impossible to discern.
> 
> So the question is can we not 
> correct my grammar if I were 
> to post good points?
> 

I really want to be able to understand your good points about HP, I 
really do.  But the traffic on this board is so heavy that you have 
to make your point of view accessible in order to get heard.

Thanks for being a good sport, Dave.  I think it would be a good idea 
for you to hire an English tutor, as you mentioned.  Improving your 
writing skills could only help your business.  If I had the $ and the 
time I would hire one too.

--Joywitch




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 03:00:57 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:00:57 -0000
Subject: Back to Harry and a question?
In-Reply-To: <8ukrti+nb0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ul159+ht7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5649

Dave wrote:
> But Voldemort looked at Peter's arm and saw the dark mark upon it. 
He was a spy and it was there.

At the end of GoF?  I suspect that was a new aquisition.  He may have 
been a spy 13 years prior, but in the GoF, he was a living corpse
with no need to hide his affiliations.  If Dumbledore was getting 
information from Snape, prior to the Potters' murders, he would 
certainly have known about the Mark.  If he suspected a spy, why 
didn't he just look at their arms?  Too easy.

Gwen.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Nov 12 03:18:40 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:18:40 -0600
Subject: Daily Prophet Writings
References: <8ul0se+ge1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0E0C10.4E420029@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5650

Hi --

Joywitch wrote:

> Does this mean I am not allowed to write any more Daily Prophet
> articles?

Oh, I hope not!  I enjoyed your last excerpt so much . . . I hope there
will be more.  I think that's on-topic enough to be allowable.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 12 03:27:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:27:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS
References: <8ul0se+ge1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0E0E06.4E208B9C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5651

Joywitch wrote:

> > That's it folks.  NO MORE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS.  Not even if marked
> OT.  End of story.
>
> I am sorry if it is my personal bad behavior that has led to this.
> <hangs head in shame>

Actually, I was thinking it was me. <similar apologies and drooping>

> And I was really looking forward to having a
> pleasant little mud-slinging contest with Amanda, too.  Oh well.

Well, I'm flattered. Not turning my back, not getting too far from the
mudhole, but flattered..... <g> I'm not sure I should, though, even in
private posts, because I have to stay on your good side so you'll eat my
children, remember?

> Does this mean I am not allowed to write any more Daily Prophet
> articles?

I would hope not! Those were true satire, biting and well done. I only wish
my husband would hurry up and read the books, so I could show him--he
wouldn't understand the character references yet, and he can appreciate good
wit, too.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 12 03:28:37 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:28:37 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Back to Harry and a question?
References: <8ukrti+nb0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0E0E65.A940D34A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5652

eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> But Voldemort looked at Peter's arm and saw the dark mark
> upon it. He was a spy and it was there.

Peter Pettigrew wasn't a spy, was he? Or rather, he wasn't a spy for the
good guys. He was a spy of Voldemort's, reporting the Potters' movements and
such, and as one of Voldemort's, of course he would have the mark. Am I
missing something?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 12 03:35:25 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:35:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Conservatives for Snape?
References: <B6328524.7E24%john@walton.to> <3A0D9628.B8AC6F94@texas.net> <006301c04c1e$9edd3180$411178d5@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <3A0E0FFC.B2F01AA2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5653

Jinx wrote:

> Is this just a coincidence?  Are right-wingers more cynical and does this
> lead them to go for the most embittered cynical character in the books?

Maybe, maybe not. Most of us who like Snape do so because he's so complex and
unpredictable, and it may be because he's cynical. Idealists are much more
predictable. Back when I was doing role-playing games (the kind on tables, with
figures--I'm showing my age, aren't I?), people generally preferred playing
evil types, for just that reason. You generally *know* what the good guys'll
do.

On the other hand, must one be a cynic to appreciate the complexity? I don't
think so. Opposites attract, you know, and there is a certain enjoyment to
exploring a character very different from your own.

--Amanda




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 04:23:41 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:23:41 -0000
Subject: Back to Harry and a question?
In-Reply-To: <3A0E0E65.A940D34A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ul60d+tgqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5654

Amanda wrote:
> Peter Pettigrew wasn't a spy, was he? Or rather, he wasn't a spy
for the good guys. He was a spy of Voldemort's, reporting the
Potters' movements and such, and as one of Voldemort's, of course he 
would have the mark. Am I missing something?

In an earlier post, to which Dave was responding, I had suggested
that Voldermort's spies, ie. baddies spying on the goodies, would not 
have the Dark Mark.  Given that Dumbledore had his own spies, he would
have known about the Mark, and so branding Voldemort spies would be a 
dead give-away.

As far as I know, whether or not Pettigrew had it when he was acting 
as a spy is still moot.  Thoughts?
Gwen.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 04:55:26 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:55:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5 (Close ups)
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEDCCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A0E22BE.C7B94C1E@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5655

"Simon J. Branford" wrote:

> I did have a little comment - it was hard to tell from the photo.
> Dudley has blonde hair but yet it seems to be quite dark in the picture.
>

It's sort of dish-water blond, not silver blond.

Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 12 04:58:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:58:05 -0000
Subject: Idealists and Cynics (was: Conservatives for Snape?
In-Reply-To: <3A0E0FFC.B2F01AA2@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ul80t+kb9g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5656

-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Back when I was doing role-playing games (the kind on tables, with
> figures--I'm showing my age, aren't I?),

Chainmail!

> people generally preferred playing evil types, for just that 
> reason. You generally *know* what the good guys'll do.

Like bad-guy Crouch saying (paraphrase): "Decent people are so 
easy to manipulate."

On another tentacle, most of the PCs of most of the people in my frpg 
group (no figurines: that's what imagination is for) are pretty 
much good guys. Good guys who might be a little silly in terms of 
gluttony, lust, wanting to keep with the day job that pays the 
bills even tho' the world needs to be saved... okay, a whole lot 
silly, but on the side of good nonetheless. 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 05:03:53 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:03:53 -0000
Subject: Goodbye (for now)
Message-ID: <8ul8bp+kitl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5657

Was the chapter 18 summary/question list received by all on the 
list?  Or was it lost in the political fray?

Usually I rotate my participation in listservers.  Now I'm starting 
to think that it may be time for an HP4GU sabbatical... with the 
holidays coming up and all.  The leisure time that I had over the 
summer to actively post and read has dissolved into virtually 
nothing. 

Therefore, I charge you:  Be in good health and prosper.  Read lots 
of Harry Potter.  Crusade against censorship and all forms of 
oppression whenever and wherever you encounter it.  Protect the 
interests of *all* children everywhere, for there are many real-life 
Harrys suffering in the cupboards of the world.

See you again in the New Year!

--Ebony




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 05:25:38 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:25:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP audio book review
References: <8ukvmm+acc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0E29D1.43BBD0B1@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5658

Joywitch wrote:

>  The Dursleys are as self-righteous and devoid of charity as so many bowls
>
> of cold porridge;
>
> Personally, I think this is a stupid review.  What kind of analogy is
> *self-righteous and devoid of charity as so many bowls of cold
> porridge*.

That bit about cold charity and porridge reminded me immediately of that
famous bit in Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own where she contrasts in a
fictionalized incident the dinner she was served at a woman's college with
the meal she had earlier received at a men's college--she was complaining
about the difference in the amount of financial support that women's
colleges receive compared to men's colleges:

"Prunes and custard followed.  And if any one complains that prunes, even
when mitigated by custard, are an uncharitable vegetable (fruit they are
not), stringy as a miser's heart and exuding a fluid such as runs in misers'
veins who have denied themselves wine and warmth for eighty years and yet
have not given to the poor, he should reflect that there are people whose
charity embraces even the prune."

I'll bet that the Dursleys fed Harry a lot of prunes over the years.

I believe I've mentioned before my disagreement with you before about how
Jim Dale does Hermione. I love the Jim Dale CDs, and his characterization of
Hermione is one of my absolute favorites.  Different tastes, I guess.

Cheers,
Peg




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 05:48:10 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:48:10 -0000
Subject: The Daily Prophet
Message-ID: <8ulauq+iekd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5659

*************** THE DAILY PROPHET ******************

TRELAWNEY PREDICTS U.S. ELECTION RESULTS

by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, D.P.'s Washington correspondent

HOGSMEADE, U.K., Nov. 11 - At a press conference held today, noted 
seer Sibyll Trelawney predicted the results of the hotly-contested 
U.S. presidential election.  Trelawney stated, "I have consulted my 
crystal ball, carefully examined many cups of tea leaves, and 
examined the position of the stars, and I am happy to announce that I 
have determined the results of what will undoubtedly be many months 
of counting, and recounting, of the election ballots.  I have 
determined that the next president of the United States will be Ralph 
Nader."

Reporters and bystanders at the press conference, which took place in 
Hogsmeade's famous Three Broomsticks pub, were somewhat taken aback 
at this prediction.  Hogwarts professor Minerva McGonagall was heard 
to remark, "Ralph Nader?  He's only got 3% of the vote.  If it 
weren't for the fact that I never speak ill of my colleagues...."  

Fred Weasley, co-owner of the newly-expanded Weasley's Whizzes 
(formerly Zonko's Joke Shop) said, "That's funny, my crystal ball 
said that the dead governor of Missouri would be elected president."  
Added his brother George, "Yeh, and also that Ralph Nader would be 
run over by an irate Gore supporter driving a Corvair."  

According to bus conductor and frequent Three Broomsticks patron Stan 
Shunpike, "I dunno nuffink about `mericans and I never `eard of this 
Vader muggle, but Professor Trelawney, she's really sumfink.  I `ad 
`er fur Divination when I was a student at `ogwarts, years ago.  
Always predicted I'd be run over by the Knight Bus, she was, and `ere 
I am running it instead."

Also present at the Three Broomsticks was Minister of Magic Cornelius 
Fudge, who explained, "The results of the U.S. muggle election don't 
really have any impact here in Great Britain, or indeed anywhere in 
the worldwide wizard community.  There is simply no way a muggle 
politician could do anything that would concern us at all, and I wish 
everyone would stop sending me owls asking me, I mean, I don't think 
it is anything we need to worry about."

Hogwarts Headmaster Albus Dumbledore, when asked to comment about 
Trelawney's prediction, smiled, his eyes gleaming, and told this 
reporter that, "Sibyll Trelawney, bless her, has been making 
predictions for many years.  Occasionally she even predicts something 
correctly.  Just a few years ago she accurately predicted that the 
English Quidditch team would win the World Cup, thanks to their new 
seeker, Harry Potter.  In 1994 she rightly predicted Voldemort's 
return to power.  And previously, she made a true prediction that 
(continued on pg. 17)




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 05:57:54 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:57:54 -0000
Subject: (OT: Pol) Protests against George W. Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3A0D9916.309E8C1F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ulbh2+igc1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5660

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> > A factoid for those following this: I have heard that the fabled 
19,000 discounted ballots included those that were handed in as 
mistakes by voters, who  then received a new ballot. It is not clear 
how many were actual double votes, and how many were "mistake" 
ballots that were not counted because the voter returned
 it and requested and completed a subsequent ballot.
> 



Definition of factoid from Merriam Webster dictionary

"an invented fact believed to be true because of its appearance
in print"





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 12 07:02:15 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:02:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Daily Prophet (Joywitch, you are a pleasure!)
References: <8ulauq+iekd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c04c76$7de6bf20$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5661

I love the "continuation!"
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 11:48 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Daily Prophet


> *************** THE DAILY PROPHET ******************
> 
> TRELAWNEY PREDICTS U.S. ELECTION RESULTS
> 
> by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, D.P.'s Washington correspondent
> 
> HOGSMEADE, U.K., Nov. 11 - At a press conference held today, noted 
> seer Sibyll Trelawney predicted the results of the hotly-contested 
> U.S. presidential election.  Trelawney stated, "I have consulted my 
> crystal ball, carefully examined many cups of tea leaves, and 
> examined the position of the stars, and I am happy to announce that I 
> have determined the results of what will undoubtedly be many months 
> of counting, and recounting, of the election ballots.  I have 
> determined that the next president of the United States will be Ralph 
> Nader."
> 
> Reporters and bystanders at the press conference, which took place in 
> Hogsmeade's famous Three Broomsticks pub, were somewhat taken aback 
> at this prediction.  Hogwarts professor Minerva McGonagall was heard 
> to remark, "Ralph Nader?  He's only got 3% of the vote.  If it 
> weren't for the fact that I never speak ill of my colleagues...."  
> 
> Fred Weasley, co-owner of the newly-expanded Weasley's Whizzes 
> (formerly Zonko's Joke Shop) said, "That's funny, my crystal ball 
> said that the dead governor of Missouri would be elected president."  
> Added his brother George, "Yeh, and also that Ralph Nader would be 
> run over by an irate Gore supporter driving a Corvair."  
> 
> According to bus conductor and frequent Three Broomsticks patron Stan 
> Shunpike, "I dunno nuffink about `mericans and I never `eard of this 
> Vader muggle, but Professor Trelawney, she's really sumfink.  I `ad 
> `er fur Divination when I was a student at `ogwarts, years ago.  
> Always predicted I'd be run over by the Knight Bus, she was, and `ere 
> I am running it instead."
> 
> Also present at the Three Broomsticks was Minister of Magic Cornelius 
> Fudge, who explained, "The results of the U.S. muggle election don't 
> really have any impact here in Great Britain, or indeed anywhere in 
> the worldwide wizard community.  There is simply no way a muggle 
> politician could do anything that would concern us at all, and I wish 
> everyone would stop sending me owls asking me, I mean, I don't think 
> it is anything we need to worry about."
> 
> Hogwarts Headmaster Albus Dumbledore, when asked to comment about 
> Trelawney's prediction, smiled, his eyes gleaming, and told this 
> reporter that, "Sibyll Trelawney, bless her, has been making 
> predictions for many years.  Occasionally she even predicts something 
> correctly.  Just a few years ago she accurately predicted that the 
> English Quidditch team would win the World Cup, thanks to their new 
> seeker, Harry Potter.  In 1994 she rightly predicted Voldemort's 
> return to power.  And previously, she made a true prediction that 
> (continued on pg. 17)
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Nov 12 06:23:12 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:23:12 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Challenges
Message-ID: <8uld0g+eaaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5662

After reading some good posts about why Dumbledore tolerates Peeves 
recently, I've thought about parallels including the Headmaster's 
choice of teachers and his decision to send Harry to live with the 
Dursleys:

- Dumbledore may tolerate Peeves because he helps teach the students 
about how to deal with adversity and the unexpected. This could be a 
very valuable skill in a world not yet free of Lord V.

- The same can be said about his choice of teachers:  Snape and Moody 
are psychotic; Hagrid and Lockhart are incompetent (as teachers); 
McGonigall is very strict; etc.  Learning to deal with these 
different personalities will be critical whether one finds employment 
in the MOM, as an Auror, or as a conductor on the Knight Bus. If the 
students aren't challenged in ways other than academics, they might 
as well be in a nice warm womb for seven years.

- Giving Harry the invisibility cloak and tolerating his other 
escapades may be Dumbledore's way of toughening Harry up, even though 
he knows that Harry could well be injured or killed in the process. I 
suspect that Dumbledore fully expects and wants Harry to break the 
rules. Successful assassins *must not* follow rules. At the same 
time, Dumbledore leaves watchdogs like Peeves, Snape, and even 
McGonigall in place as foils for Harry, while he (Dumbledore) manages 
things from behind the stage.

- The adversity of growing up with the Dursleys might be just the 
kind of upbringing that Voldemort's chief rival needs to have. Maybe 
Harry must "see" Vernon Dursley in Voldemort in order to kill him. A 
kind and gentle Harry might falter at the last moment.  Living in an 
abusive home might also foster patterns of thought and behavior 
(e.g., deviousness and "a certain disregard for rules") that will be 
critical for defeating Voldemort. Would Ron, George, Fred, or Percy, 
coming from a warm and loving home, have the "stuff" to overcome 
Voldemort?  I doubt it.

Comments?

-Jim Flanagan




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 07:53:37 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:53:37 -0000
Subject: Fic Announcement
In-Reply-To: <003801c04c1c$aa3b9280$411178d5@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8ulia1+tkc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5663

Jinx wrote:

"Brilliant fic!  Your Snape is spot on.  Just one question - where 
did Lupin take Wolfsbane before and are you going to/ have you 
already done a fic where we find out?"

I have indeed already written this story; it's called 'The Farther 
Shore' and you'll have to read it to find the answer to your 
question!  Like the others, it's on www.fanfiction.net.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

-Blaise.  





From kippesp at swbell.net  Sun Nov 12 08:17:15 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:17:15 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
Message-ID: <8uljmb+u2gt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5664

I searched past messages for this and didn't find it...so here goes.

I've started going through the audio version of book 3 and noticed 
one thing that I forgot about.  In the first Divination class when 
Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves, this is what was read:

Harry reading Ron's:
   Trials and suffering
   Great happiness

Ron reading Harry's:
   A windfall, unexpected gold

Trelawney reading Harry's:
   A deadly enemy
   An attack
   Danger in your path
   Death

Now I'll leave Trelawney's readings alone except to say they appear 
to be come true esp. in Book 4 (and no doubt 5, 6, and 7).  But Harry 
does get a windfall of gold for winning the Triwizard cup.

So what about Ron's?  If it turns out to be true, hopefully if 
anything bad happens to Ron or Ron's family it will turn out alright 
in the end.

I've always like the Divination stuff.  Perhaps Harry will show even 
more talent in this area than those wierd out-of-body visions he has 
in Book 4.

Paul





From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 08:24:55 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:24:55 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark, Peter, Sirius and Snape (was: 'Back to Harry and a question')
In-Reply-To: <8uknr0+njf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ulk4n+jti6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5665

Dave asked why Snape didn't know, in my fic, that Sirius was 
innocent.  It's a question I've asked myself as well.  There are 
several things that I think should be taken into account in 
considering how to answer it.  

Firstly, many people have mentioned that the Death Eaters would not 
know all of the others, and this seems to make sense.  John explained 
the 'cell theory' of terrorist groups, and I imagine the Death Eaters 
had a system like this.  So Snape would probably not be in a position 
to know each and every one of the Death Eaters.  The fact that he is 
honestly ignorant of Peter's role indicates that this is likely to be 
true.    

But more importantly, there is absolutely no reason for Snape to 
disbelieve the theory that Sirius was working for Voldemort.  It is 
his great triumph over Sirius that Sirius, whom he detests so 
strongly, should turn out to be the real traitor, and Snape who 
temporarily worked for Voldemort should be the 'good guy.'  He is not 
going to believe that just because he hasn't seen Sirius with 
Voldemort, that therefore Sirius is not working for Voldemort.  
Naturally, he will assume that Sirius is keeping his identity well 
hidden.  Snape believes that Sirius was a Death Eater because it 
makes him feel superior to Sirius, and because he sees no reason to 
disbelieve it.  

Actually, this is an idea for a fic all in itself... I love figuring 
out Snape's psychology (no comment about right-wing cynicism!).  

The other thing people were commenting on was the Dark Mark that is 
inscribed upon the arms of the Death Eaters.  

Branwen wrote:

"Snape says the Mark is there, both so that the Death 
Eaters can be called to their Master, and so they can distinguish
each other. Thus, all the Death Eaters who apparated had the Death 
Mark. Would a spy have such a tell-tale feature?"

Firstly, the Dark Mark is not always visible on the arms of the Death 
Eaters.  It only appears when Voldemort is summoning them; at other 
times it fades into invisibility.  Therefore it is NOT POSSIBLE to 
identify Death Eaters by having the whole population roll up their 
sleeves!    

The more interesting point is whether or not Peter was marked with 
it, and the truth is that I'm not sure.  I haven't got the books to 
hand to look for evidence right now... if someone else can find any 
in the scenes at the start and end between Voldemort and Peter that 
would be marvellous.  If I were asked to make a guess, I'd say that 
Peter probably was marked, as this would give Voldemort some control 
over him and Voldemort seems to like having control (there's an 
understatement for you!).  

Wow, I'm impressed that my fic sparked all this discussion!

-Blaise.    
       







From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 12 09:40:31 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:40:31 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark, Peter, Sirius and Snape (was: 'Back to Harry and a question')
In-Reply-To: <8ulk4n+jti6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uloif+l00v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5666

Peter indeed had the Dark Mark, you can find it on page 645 (US 
version). "Voldemort bent down and pulled out Wormtail's left 
arm; he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow, 
and Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a 
vivid red tatoo - a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth - 
the image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch WOrld 
Cup: the Dark Mark.". So there you have it.

Dave

P.S. Blaise, again I enjoyed your fic, and have been printing 
copies to all my friends, well done.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Nov 12 11:49:48 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:49:48 -0000
Subject: Sirius / Peter - spying and Snape
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEDLCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5667

Blaise wrote: "But more importantly, there is absolutely no reason for Snape
to disbelieve the theory that Sirius was working for Voldemort.  It is his
great triumph over Sirius that Sirius, whom he detests so strongly, should
turn out to be the real traitor, and Snape who temporarily worked for
Voldemort should be the 'good guy.'  He is not going to believe that just
because he hasn't seen Sirius with Voldemort, that therefore Sirius is not
working for Voldemort.  Naturally, he will assume that Sirius is keeping his
identity well hidden.  Snape believes that Sirius was a Death Eater because
it makes him feel superior to Sirius, and because he sees no reason to
disbelieve it."

Maybe Snape did know about Peter being a spy, but there is no reason for him
to assume that Peter was the only spy. Snape could just have assumed that
James Potter had some bad luck picking friends - two spying for Voldemort
and one werewolf.
Hagrid makes comments about having to be careful - not knowing who to
trust - making sure you did not say too much in front of a stranger.

Simon





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov 12 12:51:21 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:51:21 EDT
Subject: Goodbye (for now)
Message-ID: <id.12112000085121.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 5668

Bye, Ebony!

voicelady



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 12 16:17:46 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:17:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goodbye (for now)
References: <id.12112000085121.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <00c301c04cc4$184a5700$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5669

You will be sorely missed, Ebony.  

Keep us abreast on your HP section,  though, if you get a chance!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "voicelady" <voicelady at mymailstation.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 6:51 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goodbye (for now)


> Bye, Ebony!
> 
> voicelady
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Nov 12 16:38:33 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:38:33 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <8uljmb+u2gt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEGPCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5670

>>>>Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves, this is what was read:
...Ron reading Harry's:
   A windfall, unexpected gold<<<<<

Is this another example of the brilliant theory that Ron is a seer, and just
doesn't realize it?  Harry did get a windfall the next year, when he "won"
1000 Galleons for the Triwizard Tournament.  We better start paying closer
attention to the little things Ron says!




-----Original Message-----
From: smitster [mailto:kippesp at swbell.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 1:17 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Talons & Tea Leaves


I searched past messages for this and didn't find it...so here goes.

I've started going through the audio version of book 3 and noticed
one thing that I forgot about.  In the first Divination class when
Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves, this is what was read:

Ron reading Harry's:
   A windfall, unexpected gold





From managirl19 at aol.com  Sun Nov 12 16:44:44 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:44:44 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Talons & Tea Leaves
Message-ID: <70.4c9ba72.274022fc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5671

You know, I never thought of that! Maybe he will be a seer, and that could 
give him some sort of glory that his brothers didn't achieve? I love these 
little subvtle clues ion the boks that make you think about the furutre, This 
is a good question for any further Rowling chats, no?

--------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Allegria Winselvern</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">
FanFiction.net</A>
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Sun Nov 12 16:55:11 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:55:11 -0000
Subject: Chicago
Message-ID: <003d01c04cc9$57707860$0e997ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5672

Hi all

I'm finalising my trip to Chicago... if anyone is in that area and fancies
meeting up, I will be in Chicago from 4pm ish on Thursday 16th, leaving
early hours of Friday morning - it's a quick visit!

Does anyone know how I can get a map of Downtown Chicago?  I need to find
Marshall Fields so I can take some photos for you all.

Won't be in chat tonight I'm afraid... busy working, to help pay for all the
goodies I hope to get in the US.  May check in if I get back at a reasonable
time... though don't expect it to be before 11pm UK time (GMT).

Nick.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 12 17:05:53 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:05:53 -0000
Subject: Goodbye (for now)
In-Reply-To: <8ul8bp+kitl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8umilh+qcd9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5673

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony " <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
>
> See you again in the New Year!

Oh, Ebony, we will miss you so much!




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 12 17:07:11 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:07:11 -0000
Subject: The Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <8ulauq+iekd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uminv+au1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5674

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> *************** THE DAILY PROPHET ******************
> 
> TRELAWNEY PREDICTS U.S. ELECTION RESULTS

> return to power.  And previously, she made a true prediction that 
> (continued on pg. 17)

LOL. You're good at this.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 12 17:10:27 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:10:27 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEGPCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8umiu3+nqgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5675

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> >>>>Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves:
> ...Ron reading Harry's: A windfall, unexpected gold<<<<<

>  Harry did get a windfall the next year, when he "won" 1000 
> Galleons for the Triwizard Tournament.  

He got unexpected gold much earlier in GoF: the leprechaun gold that 
Ron poured on him. Does the predicted windfall have to be real 
in order for the prediction to be true?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Nov 12 17:16:36 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:16:36 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <8umiu3+nqgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8umj9k+63aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5676

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
> wrote:
> > >>>>Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves:
> > ...Ron reading Harry's: A windfall, unexpected gold<<<<<
> 
> >  Harry did get a windfall the next year, when he "won" 1000 
> > Galleons for the Triwizard Tournament.  
> 
> He got unexpected gold much earlier in GoF: the leprechaun gold that 
> Ron poured on him. Does the predicted windfall have to be real 
> in order for the prediction to be true?

Harry got a windfall even sooner than that: the Firebolt!





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 12 17:27:19 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:27:19 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
In-Reply-To: <3A0D810C.DEB6C1D9@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8umjtn+odj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5677

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> I'm forwarding a message Heidi Tandy wrote to me:
> 
> Peg - I just went to a bookstore where I found SOME
> 9th printings with the change, and some without

Of some ninth printings being different than other ninth printings, 
all I can think is, was the ninth printing split between two 
different printers, like the first printing (at least in UK) was?

THEN: Maybe the lousy 'correction' was introduced by one of the two 
printers, unbeknownst to Scholastic as well as to JKR!

Since the letter that Sarah received from Scholastic sounds like a 
form letter sent to everyone who writes to report mistakes or other 
discoveries in HP, and the 'corrected' text she posted came from a 
mailing list member rather than from Scholastic. The mailing list 
member could have found that changed text in a recently purchased 
ninth printing copy of GoF....




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 18:53:07 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:53:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chicago
References: <003d01c04cc9$57707860$0e997ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A0EE713.D66DDF85@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5678

Nick Mitchell wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I'm finalising my trip to Chicago... if anyone is in that area and fancies
> meeting up, I will be in Chicago from 4pm ish on Thursday 16th, leaving
> early hours of Friday morning - it's a quick visit!
>
> Does anyone know how I can get a map of Downtown Chicago?  I need to find
> Marshall Fields so I can take some photos for you all.

Here ya go:

http://www.ci.chi.il.us/Tourism/Downtown/#map

The way I found it was the way I find a lot stuff: I go to Ask Jeeves at
www.askjeeves.com and type in "How do I find a downtown map of Chicago?

I also asked "How do I find information about Marshall Fields in downtown
Chicago? and got this site:

http://marshallfields.com/events/detail.asp?evtID=2405&evtype=&evloc=&evsm=11&evsd=12&evsy=2000&evem=3&eved=12&evey=2001

It's just a quick blurb about the window display, but you can check the store's
address there.

I grew up in a suburb of Chicago, and have very fond memories of going downtown
on Christmas Eve each year to see the windows at Marshall Fields, going to see
Santa in the store, and then having lunch in the Walnut Room under their
enormous Christmas tree.  Magical!

Enjoy the trip.  Hope you get lots of good pictures.  I'll be very curious to
see how they compare to the Dayton's auditorium show.

Cheers,
Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 12 19:53:57 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:53:57 -0600
Subject: Has anyone dealt with this book?
Message-ID: <008f01c04ce2$4da12460$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5679

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5LZ3LY20Y8&mscssid=027Q0TKRQM6T8KM3C0GKPBLL39QL9HNE&isbn=0415928117


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 19:20:16 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:20:16 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Mark, Peter, Sirius and Snape (was:  'Back to Harry and a question')
References: <8uloif+l00v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0EED6F.EBDD438E@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5680

eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> Peter indeed had the Dark Mark, you can find it on page 645 (US
> version). "Voldemort bent down and pulled out Wormtail's left
> arm; he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow,
> and Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a
> vivid red tatoo - a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth -
> the image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch WOrld
> Cup: the Dark Mark.". So there you have it.
>
> Dave

Remember the time that Karkaroff came to visit Snape in his class?  And
Karkaroff showed Snape his arm and said, "It's never been this clear, never
since--"

I think that the marks are on the arms of Voldemort's servants, but they
vary in intensity, depending on what Voldemort is doing.  If his power is
waxing, the marks become darker.  If he weakens, they become lighter.  When
Voldemort disappeared for a number of years, the marks might have become all
but invisible--but they were still there (which made it easier for the
Deatheaters like Lucius Malfoy to claim they weren't really his followers,
and retake their place in wizard society).  I imagine when Voldemort touched
Peter's mark to call all the Deatheaters to him, the marks on all the
followers' arms became very black.  Does that make sense?

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 19:26:35 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:26:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone dealt with this book?
References: <008f01c04ce2$4da12460$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A0EEEEB.877E59D0@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5681

I haven't read the book, but I know the name of Jack Zipes.  He is quite a renowned expert of the use of fairy tales who teaches here at
the University of Minnesota.  I know that the local chapter of the Mythopoeic Society was discussing one of his other books recently.

I have not read his work and cannot comment, but I believe he has a good academic reputation.  I remember hearing him speaking on NPR
once about mythic literature.

I don't have any idea what his beef is with HP or how it fits into his other analysis of myth.  I probably would agree with what he has
to say (based on reading this blurb here) about the harm caused by the homogenization of myth wrecked by Disney.

Peg

Denise Rohleder wrote:

> http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5LZ3LY20Y8&mscssid=027Q0TKRQM6T8KM3C0GKPBLL39QL9HNE&isbn=0415928117
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 12 19:29:01 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:29:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone dealt with this book?
References: <008f01c04ce2$4da12460$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A0EEF7C.BCE4FD8B@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5682



Denise Rohleder wrote:

> http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5LZ3LY20Y8&mscssid=027Q0TKRQM6T8KM3C0GKPBLL39QL9HNE&isbn=0415928117

Afterthought: I also think it's ridiculous to dismiss Jo's work as insignificant or harmful before the series has even been finished.
(But maybe then I'm just being defensive.  I've already pointed out that I didn't seem to be a good fit with the academic world).

P.




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 12 20:56:38 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:56:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Definitions
References: <8ulbh2+igc1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0F0406.6742B52C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5683

Susan McGee wrote:

> Definition of factoid from Merriam Webster dictionary
>
> "an invented fact believed to be true because of its appearance
> in print"

Definition of "cessation" from Merriam Webster dictionary:

"a temporary or final ceasing (as of action): STOP"

--Amanda




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 12 21:38:01 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:38:01 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <8ulk4n+jti6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8un2jp+eh2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5684

Blaise wrote:
> Firstly, the Dark Mark is not always visible on the arms of the 
Death  Eaters.  It only appears when Voldemort is summoning them; at 
other  times it fades into invisibility.  

This is incorrect.  The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was lying 
defeated.  However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark
reappeared.  In fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for the 
Death Eaters to recognise each other, it mustn't fade.  I doubt the 
Death Eater can make it appear on demand - neither Snape nor
Karkaroff seem too pleased with having it.  If they need Voldemort to 
make it reappear every time they need to know each other, they might 
as well just get him to introduce them.

One paragraph upon which I base these observations follows;
" 'There,' said Snape harshly.  'There.  The Dark Mark.  It is not as 
clear as it was, an hour or so ago, when it burnt black, but you can 
still see it.  Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the 
Dark Lord.  It was a means of distinguishing each other, and his
means of summoning us to him.  When he touched the mark of any Death 
Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side.  
This Mark has been growing clearer all year.  Karkaroff's, too....'"  
GoF (English edition), The Parting of the Ways.

Based on this, my contention is that those Death Eaters who were 
openly supporting Voldemort during his reign of terror were branded 
with the Dark Mark.  These include all of the Death Eaters Snape was 
aware of, but not those in sensitive positions.  When Voldemort was 
defeated, the Dark Mark faded, only to reappear as he regained 
strength.

Blaise wrote:
> The more interesting point is whether or not Peter was marked with 
it, and the truth is that I'm not sure.

Dave wrote:
>Peter indeed had the Dark Mark, you can find it on page 645 (US 
version)...

Yes, as I recall, Voldemort summoned the Death Eaters to him by 
touching it with his wand.  However, Voldemort had been able to use a 
wand for months, during the GoF, before his encounter with Harry.  He 
was powerful enough to perform all the unforgivable curses.  He could 
have branded Pettigrew at any time.  The real question is this: was 
Pettigrew branded when he was a spy?

A lot of people have asked "if they Death Eaters saw each other in
the circle, why didn't they rat each other out?".  The answer is they
did.  In spectacular fashion.  When trying to get Fudge to believe
his story, Harry lists the names of a number of Death Eaters he saw at
the graveyard.  Fudge's reply is that these are all people who were 
exonerated 13 years ago.  They are not the clever ones, who avoided 
the Ministry altogether, they're the ones who wormed their way out of 
punishment.  Their function is to supply Voldemort with influence, 
money, muscle, and that special air of ruthlessness, which really 
makes Muggle torture an occasion.  Not brains.  Not information.

In the pensive, Karkaroff gives Crouch a number of Death Eater names. 
 He gives them torturers, practisers of the Imperious Curse and 
murders.  None of these names did him any good.  They were already 
known.  It wasn't until he mentioned a Ministry spy that Karkaroff
hit pay dirt.  Rookwood's identity would have been divulged on a 
need-to-know basis, so it was news to Crouch.

The Death Eaters at the graveyard are not the ones Harry really needs 
to worry about.  The really dangerous ones never had to make up 
excuses for their actions.  When Voldemort fell, they were still 
squeaky-clean.  They are probably still working in the same Ministry 
department they were before, still living next door to the powerful 
anti-Voldemort wizard, still married to the same public official.  
They have nothing to fear, because they were never brought before the 
Ministry, never part of the circle of Death Eaters and never branded 
with the Dark Mark.

Gwen.





From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 12 22:03:30 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:03:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
References: <8umjtn+odj5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0F13B2.A0A99BFD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5685

Rita Winston wrote:

> THEN: Maybe the lousy 'correction' was introduced by one of the two
> printers, unbeknownst to Scholastic as well as to JKR!

This had occurred to me, too. I've always thought the wand order thing could
just have been a mistake, but this "fix" doesn't sit right. It doesn't sound
like a rewrite from her hand; it sounds like a cut-and-paste of her words
from the hand of the editorial staff. Someone should ask JKR about it. Has
she a site, an address, an agent? I can't believe nobody asked about this in
any of the interviews?

--Amanda, only on the list for a couple months, so you guys would know more




From landers at email.unc.edu  Sun Nov 12 22:40:48 2000
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:40:48 -0500
Subject: the dark mark
Message-ID: <3A0F1C70.DBDF6824@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5686

Blaze wrote:
The more interesting point is whether or not Peter was marked with 
it, and the truth is that I'm not sure.  I haven't got the books to 
hand to look for evidence right now... if someone else can find any 
in the scenes at the start and end between Voldemort and Peter that 
would be marvellous.  If I were asked to make a guess, I'd say that 
Peter probably was marked, as this would give Voldemort some control 
over him and Voldemort seems to like having control (there's an 
understatement for you!).  
Peter was marked.  That's how Voldemort summoned his deatheaters.  He
pressed his finger to Peter's mark, and it was obviously painful.



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Nov 12 22:42:36 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:42:36 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <8un2jp+eh2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8un6cs+8ct3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5687

In the American version of GoF during the Voldemort summons Death 
Eaters chapter, it states that Voldy addressed some Death Eaters, such 
as Malfoy, and others he did not. Furthermore in GoF, Sirius tells 
Harry that not all Death Eaters were ever caught.

:-) Milz

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brandgwen G." <brandgwen at h...> 
wrote:
> Blaise wrote:
> > Firstly, the Dark Mark is not always visible on the arms of the 
> Death  Eaters.  It only appears when Voldemort is summoning them; at 
> other  times it fades into invisibility.  
> 
> This is incorrect.  The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was 
lying 
> defeated.  However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark
> reappeared.  In fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for 
the 
> Death Eaters to recognise each other, it mustn't fade.  I doubt the 
> Death Eater can make it appear on demand - neither Snape nor
> Karkaroff seem too pleased with having it.  If they need Voldemort 
to 
> make it reappear every time they need to know each other, they might 
> as well just get him to introduce them.
> 
> One paragraph upon which I base these observations follows;
> " 'There,' said Snape harshly.  'There.  The Dark Mark.  It is not 
as 
> clear as it was, an hour or so ago, when it burnt black, but you can 
> still see it.  Every Death Eater had the sign burnt into him by the 
> Dark Lord.  It was a means of distinguishing each other, and his
> means of summoning us to him.  When he touched the mark of any Death 
> Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side. 
 
> This Mark has been growing clearer all year.  Karkaroff's, too....'" 
 
> GoF (English edition), The Parting of the Ways.
> 
> Based on this, my contention is that those Death Eaters who were 
> openly supporting Voldemort during his reign of terror were branded 
> with the Dark Mark.  These include all of the Death Eaters Snape was 
> aware of, but not those in sensitive positions.  When Voldemort was 
> defeated, the Dark Mark faded, only to reappear as he regained 
> strength.
> 
> Blaise wrote:
> > The more interesting point is whether or not Peter was marked with 
> it, and the truth is that I'm not sure.
> 
> Dave wrote:
> >Peter indeed had the Dark Mark, you can find it on page 645 (US 
> version)...
> 
> Yes, as I recall, Voldemort summoned the Death Eaters to him by 
> touching it with his wand.  However, Voldemort had been able to use 
a 
> wand for months, during the GoF, before his encounter with Harry.  
He 
> was powerful enough to perform all the unforgivable curses.  He 
could 
> have branded Pettigrew at any time.  The real question is this: was 
> Pettigrew branded when he was a spy?
> 
> A lot of people have asked "if they Death Eaters saw each other in
> the circle, why didn't they rat each other out?".  The answer is 
they
> did.  In spectacular fashion.  When trying to get Fudge to believe
> his story, Harry lists the names of a number of Death Eaters he saw 
at
> the graveyard.  Fudge's reply is that these are all people who were 
> exonerated 13 years ago.  They are not the clever ones, who avoided 
> the Ministry altogether, they're the ones who wormed their way out 
of 
> punishment.  Their function is to supply Voldemort with influence, 
> money, muscle, and that special air of ruthlessness, which really 
> makes Muggle torture an occasion.  Not brains.  Not information.
> 
> In the pensive, Karkaroff gives Crouch a number of Death Eater 
names. 
>  He gives them torturers, practisers of the Imperious Curse and 
> murders.  None of these names did him any good.  They were already 
> known.  It wasn't until he mentioned a Ministry spy that Karkaroff
> hit pay dirt.  Rookwood's identity would have been divulged on a 
> need-to-know basis, so it was news to Crouch.
> 
> The Death Eaters at the graveyard are not the ones Harry really 
needs 
> to worry about.  The really dangerous ones never had to make up 
> excuses for their actions.  When Voldemort fell, they were still 
> squeaky-clean.  They are probably still working in the same Ministry 
> department they were before, still living next door to the powerful 
> anti-Voldemort wizard, still married to the same public official.  
> They have nothing to fear, because they were never brought before 
the 
> Ministry, never part of the circle of Death Eaters and never branded 
> with the Dark Mark.
> 
> Gwen.




From atelecky at mit.edu  Sun Nov 12 22:45:14 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:45:14 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <70.4c9ba72.274022fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8un6hq+o9qk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5688

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, managirl19 at a... wrote:
> You know, I never thought of that! Maybe he will be a seer, and that 
could 
> give him some sort of glory that his brothers didn't achieve? I love 
these 
> little subvtle clues ion the boks that make you think about the 
furutre, This 
> is a good question for any further Rowling chats, no?

I also really like this idea--I think it would be an excellent way for 
Ron to have the chance to be "special" too, rather than always tagging 
along after Harry and Hermione and being the "straight man" or 
"regular guy sidekick" for both of them. And it would be VERY 
funny--the class that Ron always made fun of and blew off he 
unwittingly excelled at!





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Nov 12 22:59:26 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:59:26 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <8umj9k+63aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8un7ce+nsle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5689

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" 
<klaatu at p...> 
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>Harry and Ron are reading the tea leaves:
> > > ...Ron reading Harry's: A windfall, unexpected gold<<<<<
> > 
> > >  Harry did get a windfall the next year, when he "won" 1000 
> > > Galleons for the Triwizard Tournament.  
> > 
> > He got unexpected gold much earlier in GoF: the leprechaun gold 
that 
> > Ron poured on him. Does the predicted windfall have to be real 
> > in order for the prediction to be true?
> 
> Harry got a windfall even sooner than that: the Firebolt!

This is making me wonder....Does the prediction mean the the windfall 
IS the unexpected gold or does it predict two separate things, namely 
a windfall AND unexpected gold?

;-)Milz




From dragonfrog at email.msn.com  Sun Nov 12 23:48:20 2000
From: dragonfrog at email.msn.com (dragonfrog at email.msn.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:48:20 -0000
Subject: 2 different versions of page 667 in "Goblet"
Message-ID: <8una84+jr85@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5690

Page 667 in "Goblet" describes the emanations coming out of 
Voldemort's wand.  In my version of the book James Potter comes out 
before Lily Potter, indicating that Lily was killed before James 13 
years earlier.  That always struck me as odd, because I believed 
James got killed trying to hold off V., then Lily got killed 
protecting Harry and bestowing the spell on Harry that would protect 
him from V. (which I would love to see explained more precisely, by 
the way).  I raised this cunundrum at another message board and was 
told that two versions of page 667 exist, and in the other version 
Lily comes out of the wand first, then James, i.e. Lily died after 
James.  I checked it out and, although it took some searching, I 
found a copy of "Goblet" with the revised page 667!  I believe the 
revised version must be the authoritative version Rowling insisted on 
rewriting and reprinting when she noticed the logical error of the 
version where James emanates out of the wand first.  I was allowed by 
the book store manager to exchange my book.  But he was very 
surprised to see two different versions of the page 667 printed.  
This is highly unusual, and must have been done rather secretively by 
Rowling and Scholastic(who haven't returned my phonecalls).  The book 
store manager raised the specter of a recall, which I doubt 
Scholastic would want, but then why would they agree to a revised 
printing of the book, when millions of copies of the faulty page 667 
have already been sold.  I think it would have been wiser for 
Rowling, when she noticed the error, to decide just to live with it 
and figure out how to stage the death of Harry's parents in a future 
book (as a flashback perhaps) in a way that conforms to the odd order 
of deaths she had erroneously first indicated.  But now she has 
rewritten page 667, and now two versions of a short but important 
moment (for people who take their Harry Potter seriuously at least) 
exist.  If one is authoratative, would anyone not want to own that 
book copy rather than the other one? I'd be really curious what 
others, particularly what Rowling and Scholastic have to say about 
this.




From dragonfrog at email.msn.com  Sun Nov 12 23:52:48 2000
From: dragonfrog at email.msn.com (dragonfrog at email.msn.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:52:48 -0000
Subject: wand issue/ 2 different versions
Message-ID: <8unagg+hagc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5691

I just realised this is already an ongoing discussion. I should have 
checked the boards more carefully before I posted my rather redundent 
pprevious pot. (right above this one) Sorry about that.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 13 00:05:15 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:05:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Mark
References: <8un2jp+eh2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0F303A.AB6EC505@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5692

"Brandgwen G." wrote:

> This is incorrect.  The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was lying
> defeated.  However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark
> reappeared.  In fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for the
> Death Eaters to recognise each other, it mustn't fade.  I doubt the
> Death Eater can make it appear on demand - neither Snape nor
> Karkaroff seem too pleased with having it.  If they need Voldemort to
> make it reappear every time they need to know each other, they might
> as well just get him to introduce them.

On the other hand, why mark your followers in such a way that would be
obvious? Why not make a neon sign float above them saying "Death Eater"? I'm
betting there's some incantation to make it appear on people within a
certain radius, but unless it's "activated" it's not immediately visible.
Otherwise, how could there have been DeathEaters who weasled away? Just look
at the arms and chuck the marked ones into Azkaban.

--Amanda





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 13 00:22:03 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:22:03 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <3A0F303A.AB6EC505@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8unc7b+6vve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5693

-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> On the other hand, why mark your followers in such a way that would 
> be obvious? Why not make a neon sign float above them saying "Death
> Eater"? (snip)
> Otherwise, how could there have been DeathEaters who weasled away?
> Just look at the arms and chuck the marked ones into Azkaban.

Lucius Malfoy has the Dark Mark (there he is at the circle in 
graveyard, called by name by Voldemort) and he weaseled out of 
Azkaban. Same for Crabbe, Goyle, Avery, Nott.... 

Either your theory of an incantation that conceals the Dark Mark is 
correct or they successfully LIED. I think the Latter: the Mark was 
visible but they swore under oath that it had been put on them while 
they were under the Imperius Curse or some other mind-control curse. 
Remember, all the way back in Book 1, Ron told Harry that Lucius 
Malfoy worked for You-Know-Who but was one of the first to come 
back when You-Know-You was defeated, claiming that he had been 
bewitched. 




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Nov 13 00:27:58 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:27:58 -0000
Subject: Technology and Magic
Message-ID: <8uncie+9nkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5694

Quote of the day:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic.

- Arthur C. Clark


The magical world and the technological world seem to be much closer 
than they were 1000 years ago, when Hogwarts was in its infancy.  I 
wonder when the two worlds will finally converge completely?  Here 
are some of the present day technological equivalents for various 
magical spells and devices:

    Magic                                Tech.

transfiguration between species     genetic engineering
floo powder                         the underground
owl post                            overnight express
flying brooms                       the concorde
quill pens                          wordprocessors
gillyweed                           SCUBA
potions                             drugs; chemistry
divination                          Psychic HotLine
avada kadavra curse                 12 gauge shotgun

Note that several of the technological solutions are quite a bit 
easier and cheaper than the magical counterpart, and I don't think 
there is anything magical that's quite the equal of the Internet.

-Jim Flanagan




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Nov 13 00:44:17 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:44:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEGPCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
References: <8uljmb+u2gt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112164332.00c6cc10@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5695

At 09:38 AM 11/12/00 -0700, Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
>Is this another example of the brilliant theory that Ron is a seer, and just
>doesn't realize it?  Harry did get a windfall the next year, when he "won"
>1000 Galleons for the Triwizard Tournament.  We better start paying closer
>attention to the little things Ron says!

Well, Ron has "predicted" Harry will work for the MoM... That's the one
I'm keeping in mind...



                                                 -- Dave




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Mon Nov 13 00:40:14 2000
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:40:14 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Talons & Tea Leaves
Message-ID: <29.c798c6d.2740926e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5696

In a message dated 11/12/00 6:13:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
atelecky at mit.edu writes:

<< > You know, I never thought of that! Maybe he will be a seer, and that 
 could 
 > give him some sort of glory that his brothers didn't achieve? I love 
 these 
 > little subvtle clues ion the boks that make you think about the 
 furutre, This 
 > is a good question for any further Rowling chats, no?
 
 I also really like this idea--I think it would be an excellent way for 
 Ron to have the chance to be "special" too, rather than always tagging 
 along after Harry and Hermione and being the "straight man" or 
 "regular guy sidekick" for both of them. And it would be VERY 
 funny--the class that Ron always made fun of and blew off he 
 unwittingly excelled at! >>

Wasn't there an article where J K said that someone would become a teacher at 
Hogwarts but it was no one you would ever think?  Maybe Ron will take 
Trelawney's place. 

   Coleen(Tessie)



From kachina_kokomis at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 13 00:49:32 2000
From: kachina_kokomis at yahoo.com (Tala Gin)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:49:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Kon wa and help?!
Message-ID: <20001113004932.61639.qmail@web9406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5697

Moshi moshi fellow elder Potterholics![Tala waves to everyone] Welcome to my hello post. My name is Tala, and I'm an addict. ^_^ I'm addicted to magic, anime, and, of cource, Harry Potter. Right, anyhow, this message does have a point. . .  somewhere. . . Ah! Here it is: I need some opinions from Rowling's fans for a school project. What I need to know is how you folks feel about the idea that Harry Potter promotes paganism-and, in turn, kids shouldn't read the books.  IMNSHO, :^?~ ! (Tala happens to be a witch and is rather proud of that fact) Well, thanks for your time! 


(`*?.?(`*?.?  ?.?*?)?.?*?)
*???`?.??*Tala Gin*??.???`?*
(?.?*?(?.?*?  `*?.?)`*?.?) 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 13 00:50:09 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:50:09 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <8un2jp+eh2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8unds1+p277@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5698

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brandgwen G." wrote:

> The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was lying defeated.  
> However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark reappeared.  In
> fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for the Death Eaters
> to recognise each other, it mustn't fade. (snip)

> Based on this, my contention is that those Death Eaters who were 
> openly supporting Voldemort during his reign of terror were branded 
> with the Dark Mark.  These include all of the Death Eaters Snape 
> was aware of, but not those in sensitive positions.  When Voldemort
> was defeated, the Dark Mark faded, only to reappear as he regained 
> strength.(snip)

> A lot of people have asked "if the Death Eaters saw each other in
> the circle, why didn't they rat each other out?".  The answer is
> they did.  In spectacular fashion.  When trying to get Fudge to
> believe his story, Harry lists the names of a number of Death 
> Eaters he saw at the graveyard.  Fudge's reply is that these are 
> all people who were exonerated 13 years ago.  They are not the 
> clever ones, who avoided the Ministry altogether, they're the ones 
> who wormed their way out of punishment.  Their function is to
> supply Voldemort with influence, money, muscle, and that special 
> air of ruthlessness, which really makes Muggle torture an occasion.
> Not brains.  Not information.

I am sure that if teacher's, I mean Voldy's, pet Lucius had known 
that what he was contributing to the Dark Side was 'not brains', he 
would have felt so insulted that he would have switched over to the 
Light Side simply for vengeance.

> (snip)
> The Death Eaters at the graveyard are not the ones Harry really
> needs to worry about.  The really dangerous ones never had to make
> up excuses for their actions.  When Voldemort fell, they were still 
> squeaky-clean. They are probably still working in the same Ministry 
> department they were before, still living next door to the powerful 
> anti-Voldemort wizard, still married to the same public official.  
> They have nothing to fear, because they were never brought before
> the Ministry, never part of the circle of Death Eaters and never 
> branded with the Dark Mark.

This is depressingly reasonable and plausible. Before reading your 
post, I would have argued that V, besides his egomania and his love 
of theatrics, isn't smart enough to worry about secrecy (or take any 
other precaution like not using the Imperius Curse on Harry after 
Crouch had no doubt reported to him that it didn't work on Harry). 
Voldemort is not as smart as Brandgwen G.

However, when Harry told Sirius about Snape and Karkaroff conversing 
about their arms, Sirius looked completely puzzled and said he 
didn't know what that was about. That indicates that (contrary to 
my unposted fanfic in which James and Lily know that their enemies 
have the Dark Mark) the good side didn't know about the Dark Mark, 
didn't know to check people's arms, while V was still in power. Even 
after the fall of V, no one checked young Crouch's arm at his trial. 
HOW was the bad side ABLE to keep that Mark SECRET even tho' marked 
people were being caught by Aurors, tried, and imprisoned, and some 
of them blabbed? 

Maybe, sort of as Amanda suggested, V had spells to keep his Death 
Eaters from mentioning the Mark to lightsiders and to make it 
invisible when in the custody of lightsiders ... but then Snape's and 
Karkaroff's Marks wouldn't have darkened at Hogwarts (where they were 
in the custody of Dumbledore) and Snape wouldn't have been able to 
explain his Mark to Fudge (who appeared not to know about it despite 
having been an adult, a Ministry functionary, during the bad 
years). Oh, questions!






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Nov 13 01:02:13 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:02:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Challenges
In-Reply-To: <8uld0g+eaaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112164602.00d0f5b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5699

At 06:23 AM 11/12/00 +0000, Jim Flanagan wrote:
>The adversity of growing up with the Dursleys might be just the
>kind of upbringing that Voldemort's chief rival needs to have. Maybe
>Harry must "see" Vernon Dursley in Voldemort in order to kill him. A
>kind and gentle Harry might falter at the last moment.  Living in an
>abusive home might also foster patterns of thought and behavior
>(e.g., deviousness and "a certain disregard for rules") that will be
>critical for defeating Voldemort. Would Ron, George, Fred, or Percy,
>coming from a warm and loving home, have the "stuff" to overcome
>Voldemort?  I doubt it.

I'd accept this, except that I think it is a near-miracle that the
abuse Harry got from the Dursleys didn't make him turn out
like V.





                                                 -- Dave




From waghorne at ma.ultranet.com  Mon Nov 13 01:12:12 2000
From: waghorne at ma.ultranet.com (Ken Waghorne)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:12:12 -500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <8un2jp+eh2q@eGroups.com>
References: <8ulk4n+jti6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <200011130113.UAA08132@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5700

Brandgwen G. wrote:

> Blaise wrote:
> > Firstly, the Dark Mark is not always visible on the arms of the 
> Death  Eaters.  It only appears when Voldemort is summoning them; at 
> other  times it fades into invisibility.  
> 
> This is incorrect.  The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was lying 
> defeated.  However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark
> reappeared.  In fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for the 
> Death Eaters to recognise each other, it mustn't fade.  I doubt the 
> Death Eater can make it appear on demand - neither Snape nor
> Karkaroff seem too pleased with having it.  

I don't know about that.  In one of the run-ins between Snape and 
Fake Moody in GoF (maybe the one after Harry finally solved the 
Egg), Moody somehow caused Snape's dark mark to burn since 
Snape showed some pain and grabbed his own arm. I still don't 
know whether this is something that the real Moody may have 
learned as an Auror or that Barty Junior learned as a Death Eater. 
I'm guessing this would have to be some Auror trick, since Snape 
didn't seem at all surprised when "Moody" used it on him.   


Ken
aka
Hound Fan
aka
Boston...



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 13 01:36:20 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:36:20 -0000
Subject: (long, boring) Re: Kon wa and help?!
In-Reply-To: <20001113004932.61639.qmail@web9406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ungik+kt3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5701

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Tala Gin <kachina_kokomis at y...> 
wrote:

> What I need to know is how you folks feel about the idea that Harry
> Potter promotes paganism-and, in turn, kids shouldn't read the 
> books.  
> 
> (`*?.?(`*?.?  ?.?*?)?.?*?)
> *???`?.??*Tala Gin*??.???`?*
> (?.?*?(?.?*?  `*?.?)`*?.?) 

Hi, Tala!
I also am a Wiccan, and it bugs me when there are newspaper fluff 
pieces on 'Wiccans like Harry Potter', because Harry Potter has 
NOTHING to do with us. There's no religion in those books except some 
celebration of vaguely Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter 
-- most certainly there is no polytheism or Goddess worship in there, 
much as I wish there were! Paganism is a religion which is generally 
polytheistic and nature-oriented. There is no religion in those
books. Therefore there is no Paganism in those books. Wicca is a 
Pagan religion (or possibly several Wiccas are several Pagan 
religions). There is no religion in those books. Therefore there is 
no Wicca in those books.

They don't do magic the way that Wiccans do magic. They do magic by 
an inborn special ability that only some people have, carefully 
memorized words and gestures, and hard-to-obtain ingredients like 
dragon's blood and unicorn hair. Wiccans believe that all people can 
do magic, and we do magic by visualizing the goal, raising psychic 
energy, and throwing the energy into the goal. Any words, gestures, 
or ingredients we use are just to help us visualize the goal and 
raise and tranmit the energy. 

The Hogwarts students memorise their magic words and are warned to 
pronounce them correctly and are NEVER told to visualize their goal; 
we make up our own magic words but practise for years to get better 
and better at visualization. We raise energy in many undignified
ways, such as dancing and singing (usually badly); they are taught to 
concentrate in a very dignified way -- I suppose THEY don't need to 
raise energy because the energy is already in their wands.

The word 'witch' is used in those books simply as the female of 
'wizard', so that it means a female who does magic. I wish she had 
used wizard and wizardess, or sorceror and sorceress, or mage (which 
is an ungendered term) and thus avoided all the other connotations of 
the word 'witch'. 

Which some people use to mean just any old female psychic, as a cowan 
friend who said his family believes that his grandmother must be a 
witch because she always phones at just the time that something 
newsworthy has happened. 

And some people use it as just a euphemism for 'bitch'.

And some people use it to mean anyone who practises unscholarly magic 
passed on by traditional people, like an illiterate medieval 
herbalist or a modern indigenous-people shaman or medicine person.

And some people use it to mean a Wiccan priest or priestess.

And some people use it to mean a person who has sworn allegiance to 
the Christian Devil.

And the wizards and witches in Harry Potter are none of those things 
(except Rita Skeeter IS a bitch). They're not Wiccans and they're not 
Satanists and they're not unscholarly traditional people and they're 
not untrained psychics. They study in school how to do their magic, 
which is just like using a technology, as if Hogwarts were a school 
of how to drive cars and use computers and other office equipment. 
There are occasional references to things from the Western magical 
tradition (such as Tarot cards, and the four Houses can be matched to 
the Four Elements) which are also used by Wiccans. That is NOT a 
connection to Wicca; it is because both draw on the same traditions 
that were recorded in Classical and European literature and used by 
Christian natural philosophers until science was separated from 
philosophy.

I have been given to understand that some people object to HP because 
they object to anything resembling magic or fortune telling (even 
fortune cookies) because they believe that there really is magic and 
it really does work and the way it works is that the Devil does a 
special miracle for each use of magic, as a gift to the magic user, 
in exchange for which the magic user will go to Hell upon death. 
Believing that, they can't stand for their children (or anyone else) 
to ever get the idea that it might be okay to do magic or even play 
at pretending to do magic, such as dressing up as Cinderella's fairy 
godmother for Halloween. I think the people who believe that are far 
more deluded than the people who believe it is a sin against God to 
use any technology more advanced than putting a holder around a wax 
candle to shelter it from the wind.

And I think they wouldn't get very far with the general public if 
they accurately explained their views rather than throwing around a 
whole bunch of nonsense about Minerva McGonagall and Selena Fox 
worshipping Satan.




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 13 02:24:53 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 02:24:53 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Challenges
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112164602.00d0f5b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8unjdl+8rno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5702

Jim Flanagan wrote:
>>The adversity of growing up with the Dursleys might be just the
kind of upbringing that Voldemort's chief rival needs to have. Maybe 
Harry must "see" Vernon Dursley in Voldemort in order to kill him. A 
kind and gentle Harry might falter at the last moment.  Living in an 
abusive home might also foster patterns of thought and behavior
(e.g., deviousness and "a certain disregard for rules") that will be
critical for defeating Voldemort. Would Ron, George, Fred, or Percy, 
coming from a warm and loving home, have the "stuff" to overcome 
Voldemort?  I doubt it.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> I'd accept this, except that I think it is a near-miracle that the 
abuse Harry got from the Dursleys didn't make him turn out like V.

I think it's a miracle that he didn't go to Hogwarts, find a very 
small hole and crawl into it for the rest of the semester.  This is a 
kid who's never known kindness in his life (save for Mrs Figg, the 
lady with the cats).  However, he has the courage to go up to a 
complete stranger and her 5 children and ask for directions on how to 
reach a platform no one else can see.

I've heard a theory that the fact he survived those 10 years had 
something to do with his Mother's protection.  I think it equally 
likely that it has something to do with this all being fictional. 
You can't have a good guy without the bad guy and Vernon really does 
fit the bill.

Gwen.




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 13 02:40:32 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 02:40:32 -0000
Subject: Talons & Tea Leaves
In-Reply-To: <29.c798c6d.2740926e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8unkb0+abrr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5703

Coleen(Tessie) wrote:
> Wasn't there an article where J K said that someone would become a 
teacher at Hogwarts but it was no one you would ever think?  

Really?  I've always thought it very considerate of JKR, the way
she's kept the Dark Arts spot open for when Harry graduates.  But 
that's probably too obvious.

> Maybe Ron will take Trelawney's place. 

That would be great.  Trelawney finally croaks, after inhaling just a 
little too much incense (I wonder if she sees it coming...).  A new 
class of Gryffindors, under Professor Weasley's watchful eye, spend 
their first Devination class seeing who can lob the crystal balls and 
tea cups (beginning with the pink patterned ones) furthest out the 
window.

50 points if you can reach the lake, and hit Moaning Murtyl!
Gwen.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 13 02:57:12 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:57:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long, boring) Re: Kon wa and help?!
References: <8ungik+kt3f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0F5887.5D875CA9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5704

Wow. A respectful second, and a tip of the hat to Rita for an insightful and
accurate summation! And hardly boring, Rita, by the way.

--Amanda




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Nov 13 03:46:37 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:46:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS
References: <3A0DD119.C7BA88F5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00d101c04d24$54074d60$49c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5705


----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 6:07 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CESSATION OF OFF-TOPIC POLITICS


> I will exercise banning authority on any violators (a warning for a
> first violation; a one-week suspension for any violations thereafter).
> Sorry.  I hate being mean, but clearly, this is degenerating.  We're all
> here to talk about HP.
>
> So . . . that's my final word on the subject.

Hear, hear!  My owl will be bringing you two choice seats to next year's
World Quidditch Cup.

    - CMC





From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Mon Nov 13 04:40:02 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 13 Nov 2000 04:40:02 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974090402.56971@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5706


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /priori.JPG 
  Uploaded by : heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  Description : The page from the 9th Printing with the Lily&James Order Out of the Wand Change 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/priori%2EJPG 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu
 






From atelecky at mit.edu  Mon Nov 13 04:49:03 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 04:49:03 -0000
Subject: The Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <200011130113.UAA08132@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>
Message-ID: <8unrrv+118nd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5707

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ken Waghorne" <waghorne at m...> 
wrote:
> Brandgwen G. wrote:
> 
> > Blaise wrote:
> > > Firstly, the Dark Mark is not always visible on the arms of the 
> > Death  Eaters.  It only appears when Voldemort is summoning them; 
at 
> > other  times it fades into invisibility.  
> > 
> > This is incorrect.  The Dark Mark did fade, while Voldemort was 
lying 
> > defeated.  However, as he regained strength, the Dark Mark
> > reappeared.  In fact, if what Snape says about it being a way for 
the 
> > Death Eaters to recognise each other, it mustn't fade.  I doubt 
the 
> > Death Eater can make it appear on demand - neither Snape nor
> > Karkaroff seem too pleased with having it.  
> 
> I don't know about that.  In one of the run-ins between Snape and 
> Fake Moody in GoF (maybe the one after Harry finally solved the 
> Egg), Moody somehow caused Snape's dark mark to burn since 
> Snape showed some pain and grabbed his own arm. I still don't 
> know whether this is something that the real Moody may have 
> learned as an Auror or that Barty Junior learned as a Death Eater. 
> I'm guessing this would have to be some Auror trick, since Snape 
> didn't seem at all surprised when "Moody" used it on him.   

I took Snape's clutching his arm when Moody spoke of "some marks that 
NEVER come out. . . " to be in response to the painful memory of its 
being there rather than to any sort of physical pain Moody might have 
inflicted on him by some magical means. I imagine that it has been a 
difficult fact for Snape to conceal, that he once was a Death Eater, 
and one that he would probably wish at all costs to avoid becoming 
publicly known. In Goblet of Fire we see how Fudge reacts to seeing 
the Dark Mark on Snape's arm, recoiling from him and entirely 
disregarding everything he says from the moment Snape rolls up his 
sleeve. While Dumbledore has found it within himself to forgive Snape 
and to trust him, since Dumbledore is very close to a saint, for 
almost any other witch or wizard it would be entirely unforgivable 
under any circumstances, that Snape was once a Death Eater. Snape 
could expect no less hatred and in fact much more, than Hagrid ever 
could for the fact that he is half giant, or Lupin for being a 
werewolf. 




From kippesp at swbell.net  Mon Nov 13 04:55:48 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 04:55:48 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
In-Reply-To: <3A0F13B2.A0A99BFD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8uns8k+k3so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5708

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> This had occurred to me, too. I've always thought the wand order 
thing could
> just have been a mistake, but this "fix" doesn't sit right. It 
doesn't sound
> like a rewrite from her hand; it sounds like a cut-and-paste of her 
words
> from the hand of the editorial staff. Someone should ask JKR about 
it. Has
> she a site, an address, an agent? I can't believe nobody asked 
about this in
> any of the interviews?
> 
> --Amanda, only on the list for a couple months, so you guys would 
know more

I remember one person asking about the wand ordering issue without 
specifics to the two versions.  JKR said something to the effect 
of "Ahh.  You noticed that."  Unfortunately, I didn't even know about 
this edition difference until I read it here on HP4GU.  Does JKR have 
any more interviews scheduled?  Perhaps if enough people know about 
it, it will come up.

Has anyone sent notice to the news people who also reported wand 
thing just after the release of HP4?  Of course, Harry Potter isn't a 
current issue anymore, so any information sent to them would no doubt 
get ignored.

Tonight I did run by my local bookstore but couldn't find any 9th- or 
later-edition printings.  I'll check two other bookstores tomorrow.  
(I'd like to read this myself.)  Perhaps there hasn't been enough 
time for this change to permeate the HP community.  Plus, I think 
Penny mentioned this, most of the HP crowed already has the book 
which would be some of the earliest printings.

Paul





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov 13 05:25:01 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:25:01 +0000
Subject: wand order [Heidi's evidence]
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001113052501.008eee08@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5709

Heidi wrote:

>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
>group.

[wand order discussion]

I'm still amazed by this.  I wonder if Bloomsbury have made a similar
amendment in later editions?  If they don't change it, it will remain as an
error, since the Scholastic action suggests that JKR has no intention of
writing something later to justify the mistake.  Either that or Scholastic
edited the passage without JKR's knowledge and have seriously messed up her
continuity... :) This doesn't seem very likely.

I'm fairly certain Bloomsbury still haven't addressed the
ancestor/descendent error in CoS (no one has reported a Bloomsbury CoS with
'descendent' have they?), so perhaps they will leave this 'error' too.    

I find it amusing that we could spend months debating an error and have,
more than likely, missed major clues hidden in the text because we don't
realise their significance.  

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 13 05:21:54 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:21:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
References: <8uns8k+k3so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A0F7A72.D92BD998@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5710

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > This had occurred to me, too. I've always thought the wand order
> thing could
> > just have been a mistake, but this "fix" doesn't sit right. It
> doesn't sound
> > like a rewrite from her hand; it sounds like a cut-and-paste of her
> words
> > from the hand of the editorial staff. Someone should ask JKR about
> it.

I would've expected it to read more like this:


...knew because the protection she'd given him as a baby had been on his
mind throughout that horrible night....
ANd he came...first his head, then his body, tall [but harry's not tall -
not NOW at least - this makes NO sense, but let's just let it slide] with
untidy hair like Harry's, the man who he'd thought of omroe than any other
tonight....

As you all saw from my earlier email, I've uploaded a large file containing
the page to the files section of the list - if anyone can shrink the file
size while leaving it as clear to read, please do so (and let me know so I
can delete what I put up there & replace it)

Do we have any reporters (like freelance writers...) who might be interested
in doing this as a story & finding out the truth from Scolastic or JKR's
agents? And can anyone in Canada check out a copy of it up there & see if
there's been a change?




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 13 06:06:13 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 06:06:13 -0000
Subject: Scabbers The Hero
Message-ID: <8uo0cl+s62v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5711

In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, 
heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In 
light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books this 
act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it?   






From kippesp at swbell.net  Mon Nov 13 07:20:53 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:20:53 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issues (Forwarded message)
In-Reply-To: <3A0F7A72.D92BD998@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8uo4ol+o3jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5712

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
> As you all saw from my earlier email, I've uploaded a large file 
containing
> the page to the files section of the list - if anyone can shrink 
the file
> size while leaving it as clear to read, please do so (and let me 
know so I
> can delete what I put up there & replace it)

I converted it to a TIFF file.  I believe it is widely supported.







From eliasberg at ioc.net  Mon Nov 13 09:08:20 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:08:20 -0000
Subject: Technology and Magic
In-Reply-To: <8uncie+9nkp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uob24+b0lr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5713

Or a 12 gauge for that matter!




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Mon Nov 13 09:54:55 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 13 Nov 2000 09:54:55 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974109295.5718@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5714


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/The Wolfsbane Potion.html 
  Uploaded by : blaise_writer at hotmail.com 
  Description : The story of the events of PoA, told from Snape's viewpoint, explaining how Remus didn't transform in the Shrieking Shack.   

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Fan+Fiction/The+Wolfsbane+Potion%2Ehtml 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

blaise_writer at hotmail.com
 






From horning at education.wisc.edu  Mon Nov 13 14:23:44 2000
From: horning at education.wisc.edu (horning at education.wisc.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:23:44 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8uiik2+snqn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uothg+siiq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5715

The Spanish-language editions published in Spain and Argentina have 
the same translator, same jacket art (with minor variations), and are 
essentially the same editions. But I haven't compared the texts of
the 
two to see if the Argentinian edition has been "Americanized" as the 
US one was. 

The publisher, Emece, has offices both in Spain and in Argentina 
(follow the link to Emece on the Harry Potter Around the World page - 
it goes to the Argentinian branch).  The Argentinian edition is 
printed in Buenos Aires, presumably for easier distribution
throughout 
Latin America.

While we're on the subject of Potter in Latin America, the Brazilian 
edition of Harry Potter has a completely different Portuguese 
translator than the one published in Portugal. I think this probably 
has much more to do with international rights and the existing 
publishing industries internationally than it has to do with
language. 
 Brazil has the largest children's book publishing industry in Latin 
America (second only to the US in the Americas as a whole), so it 
would stand to reason that a Brazilian publisher would buy the rights 
directly from Bloomsbury and arrange to translate the book into 
Portuguese on their own. 

In any case, if you have the Spanish (from Barcelona) edition of
Harry 
Potter, you probably don't want to pursue the Argentian one, unless 
you're an obsessive completist collector, like Jim and me! 

BTW, Jim, I have the other Iranian jackets to post in the cover art 
file.  Unfortunately (fortunately?) they use the GrandPre art in the 
other three editions.

Kathleen
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/rowling/editions.htm 





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 13 17:09:40 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:09:40 -0000
Subject: coupon for bibliomaniacs
Message-ID: <8up78k+8vb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5716

>From Alibris.com - 
$15 OFF $30--SHOP EARLY!

We've put a little something special in your stocking this year--$15 
off any purchase of $30 or more. But the elves are busy loading the 
sleigh, so you've got to act fast--the coupon expires on November 
30th. To take advantage of this deal, type in Coupon Code GRINCH when 
you check out. 
http://rsp.rsvp0.net/servlet/cc?HspIkplDYYTUTEoLpKpDoDmHgKRDJCVFHsNtgp
DNiLggDLKNE0EX

You may have to cut & paste the url into your web address box - they 
DO have a bunch of HP books - ranging from a paperback 3rd printing 
of CoS for 10$ to a first edition of PS in publisher's pictoral 
boards without wrapper, which was supposedly intended for school 
libraries; this first edition, published without dust wrapper, had a 
print run of reputedly 300 copies only. They're asking $21113.00 but 
with the coupon, it's UNDER 21,100! (and there are a few sets of 
books in the 30,000$ range - maybe someone's godfather who just 
escaped from prison after being sent there for a crime he didn't 
commit will be willing to send them one anonymously for Christmas 
this year...)




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 13 17:55:44 2000
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:55:44 AST
Subject: new Proffesor
Message-ID: <F147Uw0DyLD0WqS9cZR000014ed@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5717

Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts will be 
Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From theresabroderick at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 13 18:01:05 2000
From: theresabroderick at earthlink.net (theresabroderick at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:01:05 -0000
Subject: new Proffesor
In-Reply-To: <F147Uw0DyLD0WqS9cZR000014ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8upa91+55vk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5718

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heidi Henshaw" 
<hermione_heidi at h...> wrote:
> Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts 
will be 
> Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
> 
that would be good if Neville was the Herbology teacher. After all 
the ridiculing he has had at the hands of Snape it would be good for 
him to have a job doing something that he is good at.
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov 13 18:05:40 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:05:40 -0000
Subject: Pictures from the movie
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEEMCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5719

Have just been surfing the web and there are some new movie pictures at
Empire Online.
http://www.empireonline.co.uk/features/harrypotter/pictures.shtm

I draw particular attention to the special school award to T. M. Riddell -
which should make book 2 more interesting as the anagram may not work so
well!

Simon




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Nov 13 18:32:16 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:32:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor
Message-ID: <v02140b2eb635e4198e4b@[140.254.112.196]>

No: HPFGUIDX 5720

>Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts will be
>Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
>
>
Well, since he's still a student that doesn't seem too likely, does it?

Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

     "Out.  For.  A.  Walk....Bitch."  --Spike

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist Director's Cut"
Nighttable:  "The Cases that Haunt Us" by John Douglas
Carryalong book:  "The Golden Compass" by Philip Pullman
***************************************************





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Nov 13 18:36:03 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:36:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wand order [Heidi's evidence]
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001113052501.008eee08@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
References: <1.5.4.32.20001113052501.008eee08@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <hfc01tsjautrmvesrvq3kbgtcda04gavfb@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5721

On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:25:01 +0000, Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
wrote:

>I'm fairly certain Bloomsbury still haven't addressed the
>ancestor/descendent error in CoS (no one has reported a Bloomsbury CoS with
>'descendent' have they?)

Yes, I have, in a message about 10 days ago. My Bloomsbury paperback
edition says "descendent" and so does the audio version narrated by
Stephen Fry.

greetings,
Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Nov 13 18:54:15 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:54:15 -0000
Subject: Scabbers The Hero
In-Reply-To: <8uo0cl+s62v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8updcn+svbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5722

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, 
> heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In 
> light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books 
this 
> act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it?

In PoA, Sirius says that Wormy liked to hang around "big" friends for 
protection/power. Maybe at that point, Wormy felt that Harry might 
really be another "big" friend so by biting Goyle he was hoping to 
ingratiate himself with Harry.

:-) Milz




From john at walton.to  Mon Nov 13 18:54:28 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:54:28 +0000
Subject: Fanfic release announcement
Message-ID: <B635E964.7F6C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5723

Hi all,

Since Fanfiction.net is back online, I'm happy to announce the release of
the prologue to my latest fanfic, "Harry Potter and the Song of Time".

You can find it at:
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=111044

Enjoy,

--John

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=26685
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=111044

Novel of the moment: "Winter's Heart": Robert Jordan.
What I'm humming: "We Shall Overcome": Trad.

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Mon Nov 13 19:09:16 2000
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:09:16 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanfic release announcement
Message-ID: <f.bb9c3e8.2741965c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5724

In a message dated 11/13/00 1:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, john at walton.to 
writes:

<< Hi all,
 
 Since Fanfiction.net is back online, I'm happy to announce the release of
 the prologue to my latest fanfic, "Harry Potter and the Song of Time".
 
 You can find it at:
 http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=111044
 
 Enjoy,
 
 --John
  >>
And what a GREAT story it is!!!

    Coleen (Tessie)



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Nov 13 20:16:32 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:16:32 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor
References: <F147Uw0DyLD0WqS9cZR000014ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00dc01c04dae$c07f7280$b18e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5725


----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi Henshaw <hermione_heidi at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 1:55 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor


> Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts will be
> Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.

Good Lord.  Do you think he'll cope, having to share a staff room with
Snape?

Jinx




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov 13 20:27:09 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:27:09 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wand order [Heidi's evidence]
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001113202709.008fc328@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5726

I wrote:

>>I'm fairly certain Bloomsbury still haven't addressed the
>>ancestor/descendent error in CoS (no one has reported a Bloomsbury CoS with
>>'descendent' have they?)

>Yes, I have, in a message about 10 days ago. My Bloomsbury paperback
>edition says "descendent" and so does the audio version narrated by
>Stephen Fry.

Thanks Monika! Hmmmmm - I must have missed that message.

I sent an e-mail to Bloomsbury today about the wand order change.  They'll
probably ignore it, but it's worth a try...

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 13 21:16:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:16:28 -0000
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close ups) (re-sent)
In-Reply-To: <3A0CF922.80095B3E@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8uplnc+eap7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5727

Peg - any idea what they're going to do with the figures when they're 
done? I would love an Aunt Petunia in Bunny Slippers to put in my 
living room window & scare the neighbors away (and really want 
sirius' motorcycle....) Are they going to auction them off the way 
the CowTown Cows get auctioned off evey time there's a display in a 
city? And if not, can you tell us what day they're putting them in 
the dumpsters so we can go scrounging? 

: imagines about 35 girls grabbing for the draco figure & measuing 
him for leather trousers... ; )

I am more and more convinced that there's a conspiracy to keep us 
from seeing what Draco malfoy looks like - between the "blank" cards, 
the absence of any chapter header drawings in teh US editions of the 
books and the "lighting" problems at Dayton's - there's something 
WEIRD going on here.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 13 21:22:44 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:22:44 -0000
Subject: news stories (no, not *that* kind, these are ON topic!) & a movie casting though
Message-ID: <8upm34+96sm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5728

New Dictionary to Demystify English Phrase, Fable 

LONDON (Reuters) - Blair babes, spin doctor, canteen culture, Harry 
Potter (news - web sites) and Hogwarts, cash for questions, 
netiquette, London Eye and the Dome -- all part of Britain's cultural 
landscape alongside Buckingham Palace.

But the allusions, references and hidden meanings pose a veritable 
minefield to the uninitiated.

The new Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable published on Thursday 
aims to demystify and decode the language.


Also, JKR is in the 2000 Vanity Fair Hall of Fame, which comes out 
this week

Now, my movie casting thought (yes, it involves AMERICANS!) - I was 
out to dinner last night with, among others, 2 friends who read all 
the HP books this summer, and we had an interesting, brief, 
discussion on who should cameo as the other house ghosts - as you all 
know, John Cleese has been signed for Nearly Headless Nick - we 
talked about casting the following roles:
The Grey Lady: Jamie Lee Curtis
The Fat Friar: Michael Palin
The Bloddy Baron: Kevin Klein

yes, I know 2 of them are americans, but they're nonspeaking roles, 
so it *could* work (plus kevin klein does a fine british accent (at 
least in a spoofy sense...))




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Nov 13 22:34:53 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:34:53 -0000
Subject: More translations
In-Reply-To: <8uothg+siiq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8upqad+thf4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5729

Thanks Kathleen - If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to have the 
complete set of Iranian covers, even if they use the GrandPre 
illustrations.  Just send them to me directly.

I noticed something interesting on the the Spanish cover of Azkaban --
The newer version shows Harry *smiling* as he is riding the 
Hippogriff.  The older cover shows him with a look of fear.  I think 
it's just a slight retouching of his mouth. I'm not 100% certain of 
this, since the scans are slightly fuzzy. Would you mind confirming 
this if you have the originals on hand?

Thanks,
Jim Flanagan




From john at walton.to  Tue Nov 14 01:56:15 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:56:15 +0000
Subject: OT: Online discounts from the Internet Tourbus
In-Reply-To: <f.bb9c3e8.2741965c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B6364C3F.7F9A%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5730

Hi all,

I hope that the listmums will forgive this OT message, but this little *gem*
arrived in my mailbox this morning. Since we all exhibit signs of literature
abuse, I do believe that the coupons below might be useful in saving money
(and thus putting more in the "can spend on HP stuff" pile).

It's taken from the Internet Tourbus, www.tourbus.com.

Enjoy,

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
=====================================================

---------------------------
An Amazing Bargain Flamingo
---------------------------

One of the best-kept secrets on the Net is that most online stores
and e-commerce sites offer unadvertised discounts to special
customers, especially new customers.  These discounts are significant
-- US$10 off a US$25 purchase, US$15 off a US$30 purchase, 25% off
any purchase, and so on.  And these discounts are being offered by
online stores and e-commerce sites you know: Barnes and Noble,
Buy.com, and Sharper Image, to name a few.  Unfortunately, you have
to have a special code or have a special coupon to be able to receive
these discounts.

How do you get one of these special codes or coupons?  Easy.  Just
visit any one of the following sites.

Long-time riders will remember that Amazing-Bargains was one of my top
21 Web sites long before they became a sponsor of our little bus of
Internet happiness.  It still is one of my faves.  Why?  Well, I think
their Web page sums it up rather nicely:

     You can view the bargains by category, by store, new bargains,
     expiring soon, search, or hot bargains.  The bargains on [the]
     main page are only a small sampling of the bargains you will find
     inside.  Currently there are 435 bargains listed in 115 different
     stores.

You can find Amazing-Bargains at

<A HREF="http://www.amazing-bargains.com/">
http://www.amazing-bargains.com/ </A>.

Running a VERY close second on my list of favorite online coupon sites
is Flamingo World at

<A HREF="http://www.flamingoworld.com/">
http://www.flamingoworld.com/ </A>.

Flamingo World has a WONDERFUL design, much improved since we last
visited them back on 9 December.  In fact, when I created my list of
Top 21 Web sites, I had a hard time choosing between Amazing-Bargains
and Flamingo World.  In the end I chose Amazing-Bargains because it
has a complete list of coupon-granting stores on its main page, but
whenever I shop for something online I always visit BOTH Amazing-
Bargains and Flamingo World.

Oh, and I want to give a special, belated thank you to fellow TOURBUS
rider Heather Headrick for telling me about both of these sites last
year.  These two sites have saved me a BUNDLE!

By the way, here are just a few of the other online coupon sites that
have popped up over the past couple of years:

     BigBigSavings
     <A HREF="http://www.bigbigsavings.com/">
     http://www.bigbigsavings.com/ </A>

     Deal Catcher
     <A HREF="http://www.dealcatcher.com/">
     http://www.dealcatcher.com/ </A>

     eDealFinder
     <A HREF="http://216.205.122.231/site/od.pl">
     http://216.205.122.231/site/od.pl </A>

And, of course, our friends at Yahoo even have a section for sites
like Amazing-Bargains and Flamingo World:

<A 
HREF="http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Shopping_and_Services/Coupon
s/">
http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Shopping_and_Services/Coupons/
</A>.

Happy savings!  :)




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Nov 14 03:02:26 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:02:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goodbye (for now)
Message-ID: <4a.d7144e9.27420542@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5731

Ebony, you will be missed!

Hope you are able to come back soon and good luck and best wishes while you 
are away.

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*



From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 14 03:34:31 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 03:34:31 -0000
Subject: new Proffesor
In-Reply-To: <F147Uw0DyLD0WqS9cZR000014ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8uqbs7+de0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5732

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heidi Henshaw" 
<hermione_heidi at h...> wrote:
> Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts 
will be 
> Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
> 
Do we even know that Neville *is* good at Herbology? Or did 'Moody' 
just say that he was good at Herbology as a way of getting the 
Mediterranean aquatic plants book (its exact name has slipped my 
memory at the moment :) into Harry's dormitory?  




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov 14 03:44:55 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:44:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close ups)  (re-sent)
References: <8uplnc+eap7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A10B536.8F6F8077@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5733

Your message made me laugh, but no, I have no idea what they'll do with the
figures when the show is over. I have never heard of any of the previous
shows' figures' ever being displayed again.

I'm sure if they did try to sell them, they'd go like hotcakes, but I
suspect Warner Bros. wouldn't allow it.

Peg

P.S.: I just went and tried to tinker with the Draco Malfoy pictures that I
have, thinking, well, maybe it's not so bad--maybe I could post it--but it's
hopeless.  I did go back to the show specifically to try to get good picture
of Draco in particular, since the fanfiction has spawned so many Draco
fans.  Maybe there is something to your theory that there's something weird
going on.



heidi tandy wrote:

> Peg - any idea what they're going to do with the figures when they're
> done? I would love an Aunt Petunia in Bunny Slippers to put in my
> living room window & scare the neighbors away (and really want
> sirius' motorcycle....) Are they going to auction them off the way
> the CowTown Cows get auctioned off evey time there's a display in a
> city? And if not, can you tell us what day they're putting them in
> the dumpsters so we can go scrounging?
>
> : imagines about 35 girls grabbing for the draco figure & measuing
> him for leather trousers... ; )
>
> I am more and more convinced that there's a conspiracy to keep us
> from seeing what Draco malfoy looks like - between the "blank" cards,
> the absence of any chapter header drawings in teh US editions of the
> books and the "lighting" problems at Dayton's - there's something
> WEIRD going on here.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Tue Nov 14 05:12:04 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 00:12:04 EST
Subject: The Dark Mark, Peter, Sirius and Snape 
Message-ID: <c7.326d68d.274223a5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5734

It was my understanding that most people didn't know about the dark mark on 
the forearm. When Harry tells Sirius about Karkaroff showing Snape something 
on his forearm, Sirius doesn't know what Harry was talking about. However, 
when Snape "joined" Dumbledore's side, he would have told Dumbledore about 
the mark, so the mark could still be used to identify death eaters. 

I also thought that the mark was always present on a death eater's arm. 
Again, I use the Karkaroff/Snape example. It's unlikely that the mark only 
appears to serve as a dark magic pager. Snape wouldn't have reacted so 
angrily to Karkaroff if there was nothing to see. I'm not sure why the mark 
was so visible at that point because Voldemort had been in control of two of 
his servants (Wormtail and Crouch Jr) since the Quidditch world cup. 

JKR will have to go into greater detail on the dark mark in book 5.

It's understandable that the Death Eaters wouldn't be able to identify each 
other by sight when gathered before Voldemort because of their masks. 
However, Harry immediately recognizes the voice of one of the Death Eaters as 
the voice of Lucius Malfoy, and Voldemort calls Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery, 
and Nott by name! It doesn't seem that he was that secret about the 
identities of his servants! 

We were meant to assume that Snape was once in this circle of Death Eaters 
because of Voldemort's comment on the servant that had left him forever, but 
this isn't even the tip of the iceberg regarding the number of death eaters 
in Voldemort's service. At the Quidditch world cup, there's a huge crowd of 
death eaters torturing the Roberts family, and it's still doubtful that all 
of the death eaters were even present! Pettigrew could easily have been a 
death eater without Snape knowing, and the same holds true for Sirius. Snape 
must have realized that if Sirius had truly been Voldemort's right-hand man, 
he would have kept his identity secret, even from his fellow death eaters.

Please excuse my butchery of the English language!

Ellie



From kippesp at swbell.net  Tue Nov 14 06:04:04 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:04:04 -0000
Subject: Scabbers The Hero
In-Reply-To: <8uo0cl+s62v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uqkkk+n1gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5735

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> In the first book, Scabbers AKA Peter Pettigrew AKA Wormtail, 
> heroically defends Ron and Harry by biting Goyle on the finger. In 
> light of what we learn about this particular rat in later books 
this 
> act of nobility seems somewhat out of character. Why did he do it?

Perhaps one of the following:
1. Harry is Voldemort's kill.
2. Peter detests unloyal death eaters as much as Barty Crouch.  But 
Peter carrys his hatrid also to their family members.
3. Peter is a wimp and it is in his best interest to protect (and 
therefore be protected by) Ron and Harry.
4. Everyone, save perhaps Voldemort, believes Peter to be dead.  
Peter doesn't know about Voldemort's condition.  Peter therefore has 
no loyality towards Voldemort.  Thus, Peter doesn't feel the need to 
have hatrid towards Harry and/or Ron.
5. Peter hates Goyle.

That's all I could come up with.

Paul




From kippesp at swbell.net  Tue Nov 14 06:14:47 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:14:47 -0000
Subject: wand order [Heidi's evidence]
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001113202709.008fc328@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8uql8n+6hnl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5736

> I sent an e-mail to Bloomsbury today about the wand order change.  
They'll
> probably ignore it, but it's worth a try...
> 
> Neil
> 


I don't expect you'll get an answer.  I visited another bookstore 
tonight and found a 16th printing of HP4.  Amazingly enough, this 
edition has reverted to the pre-9th printing version.  So, as far as 
the 16th printing goes, Harry's dad beats Harry's mom out of the wand 
leaving us thoroughly and utterly confused Harry Potter fans.

I was talking with a co-worker about this today.  We decided that 
many of these things (errors and such) not only would be prevented 
with a larger proofing team (mentioned her many times before), but 
also if JKR would do her first-draft writing on a word processor.  
Does anyone know if she enters her handwritten notes into a computer 
or does someone else do that for her?

Perhaps Peg could comment on this.  I'm not a writer.  But perhaps 
going longhand lets the ideas flow better since you're free from 
computer crashes, battery drains, sunny rooms, and other such 
irritations.

But it does provide us with some lively and length discussions.  (Or, 
rather, a general waste of time as Neil hinted at.)

Paul





From managirl19 at aol.com  Tue Nov 14 11:41:23 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:41:23 EST
Subject: Wizarding Santa, Scar Snape....
Message-ID: <bb.8cae844.27427ee3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5737

You know, I was thinking about both Harry Potter and Christmas the other day 
(and it's not hard considering all the available merchandise) when I thought 
of this cute coincedence. Sanata Claus flies down chimnies through the fire 
place to deliver gifts: Doesn't it make you think about Floo, and coming in 
through the fire?

And here's a question about Floo powder: Does using the floo network allow 
people to have access to your home? Do you think they could just barge in, or 
is it that maybe they have to know the 'adress' first, and there's no 
available directory, or archive?

A friend of mine was watching The Lion King for the millionth time the other 
day with her younger siblings, but Monday morning came up to me and said, "Oh 
my god, isn't scar so much like Snape? The greasy hair and everything!" The 
greasy hair, the sneakiness of going about with 'the other kind', then 
classic kind of villain. But he's not the bad guy (or not THE bad guy, but 
still a bad guy) though. 

Just some of the inessessant rolling of thoughts in my head. Worthless, as 
expected.

Mana
-------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Morgana le Fay</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">FanFiction.net</A>
formerly Allegria Winselvern and Lupin's Girl
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Tue Nov 14 13:19:14 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:19:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Santa, Scar Snape....
Message-ID: <20001114131914.23442.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5738

[snip]
> And here's a question about Floo powder: Does using
> the floo network allow 
> people to have access to your home? Do you think
> they could just barge in, or 
> is it that maybe they have to know the 'adress'
> first, and there's no 
> available directory, or archive?
[snip]
You do have to be hooked up to the Floo Network,
according to GoF - Mr. Weasley had a ministry friend
hook up No. 4 Privet Drive on the Floo Network, as I
recall.


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Nov 14 13:32:28 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 14 Nov 2000 05:32:28 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close ups)  (re-sent)
Message-ID: <20001114133228.13611.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5739

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001114/bb445dce/attachment.ksh>

From terzarima at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 14 13:50:13 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:50:13 -0500
Subject: new Professor/Neville's confidence in himself
Message-ID: <3A114314.A8C57C42@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5740

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heidi Henshaw"
> <hermione_heidi at h...> wrote:
> > Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts
> will be
> > Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
> >
> Do we even know that Neville *is* good at Herbology? Or did 'Moody'
> just say that he was good at Herbology as a way of getting the
> Mediterranean aquatic plants book (its exact name has slipped my
> memory at the moment :) into Harry's dormitory?

Somewhere is GoF, before Moody takes Neville aside, Harry is startled
when Neveille raises his hand to answer a question in DADA because he
rarely volunteers an answer, except in Herbology, his best subject.

The big irony-- and I really noticed it, having been a teacher for six
years-- was that altough Moody's only interest was in getting the book
into Harry's room, his encouragement of Neville still had a striking
effect. Later in the chapter it states that Harry was not the only one
staying up late that night thinking about things. So was Neville.

I think Neville very likely has a great deal of ability which is all
laying dormant because of his lack of faith in himself-- a big stickler
is his relationship with his domineering grandmother, who doesn't allow
him much space to grow. I know from my own experience with teaching kids
that sometimes a little extra attention or praise for ANYTHING they have
done well can be the very thing that start to turn things around. I
played that card as much as possible as a teacher, and found it worked
well (as long as I wasn't a lightweight teacher who praised everything).

Herbology strikes me as a subject Neville would do well in-- he strikes
me as a earthy hands-on kind of person who would like a subject which
involves a lot of "doing". Transfiguration, by comparison, strikes me as
a very cerebral subject which requires a lot of memorization of things
which might not initially make concrete "sense", and potions.... eeesh,
well I remember how I did in Chemistry!

Suzanne/ Rainy Lilac




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 14 14:36:44 2000
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly )
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:36:44 -0000
Subject: new Proffesor (newbie piping in again)
In-Reply-To: <8uqbs7+de0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8urils+iajb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5741

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at h...> wrote:
> Do we even know that Neville *is* good at Herbology?

I think I remember a couple of different times when we're told that 
Neville is good at herbology.
In SS/PS don't they say that Ron and Harry pass their end-of-term 
tests with pretty good marks, and that Neville's good Herbology mark 
makes up for his awful Potion's mark?

Then I seem to remember a time when they mention that Neville only 
ever speaks up in Herbology, because that's his best subject,
although 
I can't remember which book that one is in.

And then there's Moody's encouragement, which didn't shock anyone too 
terribly, which it would have if Neville was as bad at Herbology as
he 
was at most things.

I really think we're going to see Neville come into his stride at
some 
point before this series is over.  If the memory charm that someone 
mentioned as a possibility is really a factor, maybe it will be 
reversed and he will remember what happened to his own parents and 
stand with Harry and the others to fight Voldemort.  Or if he just 
lacks confidence, he'll gain that through his excellence in herbology 
and be able to take his place on the Hogwarts staff.  And while he's 
terrified of Snape rigt now, I'm sure that once he's gained a little 
confidence or faced something much worse than a snipey snapey teacher 
he'll be able to work with him, if not enjoy his company, which is
all 
you can say for the other teachers anyway.
kimberly, who always loves the underdogs




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov 14 15:29:11 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:29:11 -0600
Subject: Email for Jim Dale; Wand Order Issue
Message-ID: <3A115A47.5025642E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5742

Hi --

I seem to recall that someone (Sister Mary Lunatic??) had posted an
email address for Jim Dale at one time.  I can't find it searching the
message archives.  I still wanted to give him my opinion about
Hermione's voice.  And, Heidi has had the brilliant idea of asking him
if he plans to re-record the "revised" pages in GoF with the priori
incantatum scene.

I'm really astounded that the 16th printing that someone found has
reverted back to the original language.  And, didn't someone say that
some 9th printings have been changed & others haven't?  I wonder if you
stacked up one copy of each printing, could you tell where the change
was made and if/when they reverted back to the original text?  If there
are different versions of the 9th printing floating around, I suppose
not.

As for the descendent/ancestor debate, it's interesting that Monika has
a UK version that's been changed, but other UK members have later
printings that have not been changed.  Is Monika the only person so far
with a changed UK version?  Is she the only one with the Stephen Fry
tapes?  It's still puzzling to me that in the US versions, it was
changed from ancestor to descendant in some of the later hardback
printings but then it reverts back to ancestor in the newly-released
paperback versions.

Should we ask CNN since they did the original article about the wand
order issue sometime back in July?  Or maybe it's something Salon.com
might investigate.  :--)

Starting to sound like the publishing industry has taken a leaf out of
the Florida electoral process book (or vice versa) --

Penny




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Tue Nov 14 16:03:40 2000
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:03:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Email for Jim Dale; Wand Order Issue
Message-ID: <81.2d7c4a8.2742bc5c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5743

In a message dated 11/14/00 10:32:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:

<< Hi --
 
 I seem to recall that someone (Sister Mary Lunatic??) had posted an
 email address for Jim Dale at one time.  I can't find it searching the
 message archives.  I still wanted to give him my opinion about
 Hermione's voice.  And, Heidi has had the brilliant idea of asking him
 if he plans to re-record the "revised" pages in GoF with the priori
 incantatum scene.
  >>

The address I have is.....http://jim-dale.com/

I hope this helps

 Coleen (Tessie)
  



From kippesp at swbell.net  Tue Nov 14 18:31:36 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:31:36 -0000
Subject: Email for Jim Dale; Wand Order Issue
In-Reply-To: <3A115A47.5025642E@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8us0e8+sfkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5744

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer

> I'm really astounded that the 16th printing that someone found has
> reverted back to the original language.  And, didn't someone say 
that
> some 9th printings have been changed & others haven't?

Until we have a larger "sampling" of editions, we really shouldn't 
conclude that Scholastic reverted back to the father then mother 
order.  I recall that when HP4 was being printed some source had said 
that multiple printers were being used.  This may still be the case 
which may explain some of these printing variations.  Difficult to 
say without more information.  Whatever the reason, it is strange and 
confusing.

Paul





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Nov 14 19:11:48 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:11:48 -0000
Subject: More WB movie news
Message-ID: <8us2pk+e7ba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5745

I don't think this has been mentioned recently; apologies if it has...

Filmforce reports that Australia House in London will be the filming 
location for the Gringott's Bank scenes.  Assuming this is a reliable 
source, the story also seems sure that Warwick Davis will be playing 
a goblin banker, as well as Professor Flitwick.

Here's the story:

http://filmforce.ign.com/news/1642.html

Neil (trying to avoid flicking through every copy of GoF he sees)








From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Tue Nov 14 19:56:15 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 14 Nov 2000 19:56:15 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974231775.65430@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5746


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /logos/sorting-hat.gif 
  Uploaded by : r.yoo at scotland.com 
  Description : HP4G-logo (color) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/logos/sorting-hat%2Egif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

r.yoo at scotland.com
 






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Tue Nov 14 19:56:47 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 14 Nov 2000 19:56:47 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974231807.65569@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5747


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /logos/b-w-sorting-hat.gif 
  Uploaded by : r.yoo at scotland.com 
  Description : HP4G logo (black and white) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/logos/b-w-sorting-hat%2Egif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

r.yoo at scotland.com
 






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Nov 14 20:42:30 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:42:30 -0000
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter show
Message-ID: <8us83m+ct28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5748

So I finally made my way into our files section to check out the 
photos that Peg provided.  (Thank you, Peg.)  My, what a neat event!  
A lot of thought, planning and time went into the making of all the 
displays!

One thing in particular struck me:  I'd always pictured both Vernon 
and Dudley Dursley as blondes.  I don't know why.  Perhaps, in my own 
mind, I'd equated them both with Draco.

And what I wouldn't give to have that final portrait of Harry in my 
collection!

Speaking of my collection, I was showing my husband all of my stuff. 
He picked up my little 2" snowglobe of Harry catching the flying key, 
noticed that it was labeled, and asked if all of the challenges were 
represented.  I answered affirmatively.  Then he asked why I hadn't 
gotten all of them.  I said that I was trying to focus just on Harry, 
and that "I didn't want to go overboard."  We both had a good laugh.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Nov 14 20:45:22 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:45:22 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Challenges
In-Reply-To: <8uld0g+eaaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8us892+dd5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5749

> - Giving Harry the invisibility cloak and tolerating his other 
> escapades may be Dumbledore's way of toughening Harry up, even 
though  he knows that Harry could well be injured or killed in the 
process. 

Or Dumbledore might be the kind of person who believes strongly that 
the Invisibility Cloak is Harry's, and Harry should have it.

Susan




From dragonfrog at email.msn.com  Tue Nov 14 20:48:24 2000
From: dragonfrog at email.msn.com (dragonfrog at email.msn.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:48:24 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Issue; 20th printing; "paste job"
In-Reply-To: <8us0e8+sfkc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8us8eo+32fd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5750

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "smitster " <kippesp at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer
> 
> > I'm really astounded that the 16th printing that someone found has
> > reverted back to the original language.  And, didn't someone say 
> that
> > some 9th printings have been changed & others haven't?
> 
> Until we have a larger "sampling" of editions, we really shouldn't 
> conclude that Scholastic reverted back to the father then mother 
> order.  I recall that when HP4 was being printed some source had 
said 
> that multiple printers were being used.  This may still be the case 
> which may explain some of these printing variations.  Difficult to 
> say without more information.  Whatever the reason, it is strange 
and 
> confusing.
> 
> Paul

I believe my copy of Goblet is the 20th printing.   This copy has the 
revised order, i.e. Mom and then Dad coming out the wand.  I believe 
that is the "correct" version.  Some people talk about it looking 
like a paste job.  That would be understandable, since in rewriting 
the section, you would be limited to how many additional or fewer 
letters and words you could use and still fit the page, so that other 
pages can stay the same.  From an 'emotional dramatic effect' 
standpoint, Rowling probably wanted the mother to arrive in the 
second, more elaborately written paragraph. It certainly made me 
cry.  But then she must have realised the logical mistake and decided 
to reverse the order. But by then typesetting logistics had to be 
taken into account in the rewrite.  That's my guess at least.  But 
why are Rowling and Scholastic being so tight lipped about it?  
Perhaps out of emberrassment or because Scholastic doesn't want a 
scandal or a recall but still felt they needed to bow to Rowling's 
wishes for the change.

Danny




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 14 21:50:43 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:50:43 -0500
Subject: Sirius! (And I'm serious....)
Message-ID: <3A11B3B2.39F95F1@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5751

Okay, I guess I am now severely under the influence of all of Cassandra,
Penny, Carol, and Lori's fanfictions-- I think Sirius is HOT. Enough of
that though.I have another one of those continuity questions:

On GoF, in the scene in which Harry is talking to Sirius's head in the
fire, he is described as looking a lot better, more recovered, than he
was on PoA. His hair has been trimmed, his face is fuller, and as Harry
observes, he looks more like the earlier pictures of himself.

However when Sirius comes back to Hogsmeade and Harry and his friends go
off to meet him, bringing him food, he is described once again as having
long matted hair, thin and drawn faced.... and he is wearing the grey
robes he wore in prison?

What gives???

Too much time on my hands,

Suzanne/ Rainy Lilac






From terzarima at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 14 21:53:40 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:53:40 -0500
Subject: Invisibility cloak....
Message-ID: <3A11B464.3EBFEAD5@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5752

Ahhhhh... but why did Dumbledore even have James's invisibility cloak in
the first place? Why wasn't it, say, destroyed when Voldemort destroyed
the house, along with all of James and Lily's other things?

And where is Sirius's motorcycle?

Pondering,

Suzanne




From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Tue Nov 14 22:00:22 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:00:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius! (And I'm serious....)
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED52@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5753

> On GoF, in the scene in which Harry is talking to Sirius's head in the
> fire, he is described as looking a lot better, more recovered, than he
> was on PoA. His hair has been trimmed, his face is fuller, and as Harry
> observes, he looks more like the earlier pictures of himself.
> 
> However when Sirius comes back to Hogsmeade and Harry and his friends go
> off to meet him, bringing him food, he is described once again as having
> long matted hair, thin and drawn faced.... and he is wearing the grey
> robes he wore in prison?
> 
	He' was also described as being quite hungry - whatever he was doing
on his way to get to Hogsmeade, I don't think he was being well fed. He was
also probably doing a lot of hiding from everyone who was looking for him,
and didn't have much time for grooming or foraging for food.

	Angela




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 14 22:07:40 2000
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly )
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:07:40 -0000
Subject: Invisibility cloak....
In-Reply-To: <3A11B464.3EBFEAD5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8usd3d+a5r5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5754

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Suzanne Burns <terzarima at e...> 
wrote:

> 
> And where is Sirius's motorcycle?
> 

I was wondering about that too, because in PS/SS Hagrid says he has to 
leave to give the motorcycle back to Sirius, but then in PoA he says 
that Sirius told him to keep it, that he wouldn't be needing it 
anymore, and Hagrid was upset at himself for not realizing (even 
though it wasn't true) that he said this because he was going to run 
away after having helped Voldemort.

So I guess Hagrid had it.  Maybe he traded it for Fluffy or something.

I also wondered about the size of the bike - at one point it was 
described I think as being a giant motorcycle, in which case how did 
Sirius ride it?  And if it wasn't giant sized, how did Hagrid ride it?
Just wondered
kimberly




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Nov 14 22:12:33 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:12:33 -0000
Subject: Invisibility cloak....
In-Reply-To: <3A11B464.3EBFEAD5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8usdch+r9e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5755

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Suzanne Burns <terzarima at e...>
wrote:
> Ahhhhh... but why did Dumbledore even have James's invisibility
cloak in
> the first place? Why wasn't it, say, destroyed when Voldemort
destroyed
> the house, along with all of James and Lily's other things?
> 
> And where is Sirius's motorcycle?
> 
> Pondering,
> 
> Suzanne

	Dumbledore says the cloak was left with him before James died. (SS 
chapter 12). Presumably James and Lily didn't need it once they'd
used the Fidelius charm, since it made them invisible to anyone who
was searching for them. (PoA Chapter 10). Perhaps the plan was to
make it available to Dumbledore's other agents. Maybe Hagrid and
Harry hid under it during the missing 24 hours!  
	I assume Hagrid still has the motorcycle tucked away somewhere.
Pippin





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Tue Nov 14 23:28:43 2000
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (Cassandra Claire)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:28:43 -0000
Subject: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close ups)  (re-sent)
In-Reply-To: <3A10B536.8F6F8077@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ushrb+uhtd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5756

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> P.S.: I just went and tried to tinker with the Draco Malfoy 
pictures that I
> have, thinking, well, maybe it's not so bad--maybe I could post it--
but it's
> hopeless.  I did go back to the show specifically to try to get 
good picture
> of Draco in particular, since the fanfiction has spawned so many 
Draco
> fans.  Maybe there is something to your theory that there's 
something weird
> going on.
> 

> heidi tandy wrote:
> 
> > Peg - any idea what they're going to do with the figures when 
they're done? (snip): imagines about 35 girls grabbing for the draco 
figure & measuing him for leather trousers... ; ) 
 I am more and more convinced that there's a conspiracy to keep us
 from seeing what Draco malfoy looks like - between the "blank" 
cards, the absence of any chapter header drawings in teh US editions 
of the books and the "lighting" problems at Dayton's - there's 
something WEIRD going on here.
> >
*delurking briefly* So will you be among those fitting the poor child 
with leather trousers, Heidi? Okay, my question is: I know there are 
calendars, school planners and countless other illustrated HP items 
for sale now...Lori told me they have them in Borders...I have never 
seen any though....if anyone has seen them, are there an 
illustrations of Draco in any of those? It does seem odd to me that 
he's never represented. I have a clear mental image of him due to the 
enormous amount of Draco fan art there seems to be out there, but I 
haven't any idea if it's based on some particular image. It does tend 
to be consistent in terms of what he looks like so I thought it might 
be. Perhaps it is a conspiracy, or perhaps WB just doesn't consider 
him enough of a major character to get his own pen/snowglobe/t-shirt? 
Which is a bit too bad because there's certainly a market. :)

cassie




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Nov 14 23:30:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:30:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close  ups)  (re-sent)
References: <8ushrb+uhtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A11CB2D.BCCEB540@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5757



Cassandra Claire wrote:

>
> > >
> *delurking briefly* So will you be among those fitting the poor child
> with leather trousers, Heidi?

Okay, no. I was thinking of some others who have let their, um, interest in
Draco in leather be loudly known, especially over onthe PoU list.

> Okay, my question is: I know there are
> calendars, school planners and countless other illustrated HP items
> for sale now...Lori told me they have them in Borders...I have never
> seen any though....if anyone has seen them, are there an
> illustrations of Draco in any of those? It does seem odd to me that
> he's never represented. I have a clear mental image of him due to the
> enormous amount of Draco fan art there seems to be out there, but I
> haven't any idea if it's based on some particular image. It does tend
> to be consistent in terms of what he looks like so I thought it might
> be. Perhaps it is a conspiracy, or perhaps WB just doesn't consider
> him enough of a major character to get his own pen/snowglobe/t-shirt?
> Which is a bit too bad because there's certainly a market. :)
>

I haven't seen his image in *anything* and I actually looked thru my 2
calendars and games over the past 2 days to see if I was missing something.
He's certainly as much of a major character as Snape in Book 1 (and more
than Fluffy  any day) and there's WB art of *them*.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 15 00:08:41 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:08:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Mark, Karkaroff and Snape
References: <c7.326d68d.274223a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A11D409.412C59A3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5758

Ellimist15 at aol.com wrote:

> It's understandable that the Death Eaters wouldn't be able to identify each
> other by sight when gathered before Voldemort because of their masks.
> However, Harry immediately recognizes the voice of one of the Death Eaters as
> the voice of Lucius Malfoy, and Voldemort calls Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery,
> and Nott by name! It doesn't seem that he was that secret about the
> identities of his servants!
>

True--but keep in mind that these are the Deatheaters who answered the call and
so Voldemort is pretty sure that they're loyal to him.  And he has every
intention of killing Harry and so doesn't consider the possibiliyt that Harry
will be reporting his speech to anyone else, and so there's little reason for him
not to speak the names aloud at this point.

> We were meant to assume that Snape was once in this circle of Death Eaters
> because of Voldemort's comment on the servant that had left him forever <snip>

but couldn't that reference instead be Karkaroff, and it's Snape that Voldemort's
referring to when he speaks of one who is "too cowardly to return"?  Which one
does Voldemort by each of these references?  I'm not quite sure which is which.


>  Please excuse my butchery of the English language!

Not at all.  You do very well.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 15 00:17:45 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:17:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] First draft to second draft
References: <8uql8n+6hnl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A11D629.4F5FF4C5@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5759

smitster wrote:

> > I sent an e-mail to Bloomsbury today about the wand order change.
> They'll
> > probably ignore it, but it's worth a try...
> >
> > Neil
> >
>
> I don't expect you'll get an answer.  I visited another bookstore
> tonight and found a 16th printing of HP4.  Amazingly enough, this
> edition has reverted to the pre-9th printing version.  So, as far as
> the 16th printing goes, Harry's dad beats Harry's mom out of the wand
> leaving us thoroughly and utterly confused Harry Potter fans.
>
> I was talking with a co-worker about this today.  We decided that
> many of these things (errors and such) not only would be prevented
> with a larger proofing team (mentioned her many times before), but
> also if JKR would do her first-draft writing on a word processor.
> Does anyone know if she enters her handwritten notes into a computer
> or does someone else do that for her?
>
> Perhaps Peg could comment on this.  I'm not a writer.  But perhaps
> going longhand lets the ideas flow better since you're free from
> computer crashes, battery drains, sunny rooms, and other such
> irritations.

I write on the computer because I type faster and more comfortably than I
hand write (I make my living in the Muggle world as a professional typist).
I can easily compose on the keyboard, but many people can't.  Also, as I
understand it from reading interviews, Jo very much appreciates leaving her
home base (coffee shops, etc.,) when doing her first draft.  You have to
remember that she didn't have the money to work on a computer when she was
doing the first book at least.  When you develop a writing method on one
technology that works well for you, it can be an awful wrench to try to
change.

I suspect Jo handwrites because she feels that is the best method for her to
get her ideas onto the page.

I have never read whether she transcribes her first draft herself to
manuscript, or even whether she prefers a typewriter or uses a computer for
her second draft.  I would be very very surprised, however, if she does
allow someone else to transcribe that first draft to second draft.
Transcribing drafts from one medium (handwritten) to another (typewritten)
can be a very important part of the creative process for writers; it's an
opportunity to take a fresh look at the material, and so many authors who
transfer from handwritten draft to typewritten second draft use that
opportunity to make changes as they transcribe.

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 14 21:17:21 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:17:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
References: <974231775.65430@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c04e80$47196180$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5760

I like this one!  It's kewl! (And it's purple!)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 1:56 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 


> 
> Hello,
> 
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
> group.
> 
>   File        : /logos/sorting-hat.gif 
>   Uploaded by : r.yoo at scotland.com 
>   Description : HP4G-logo (color) 
> 
> You can access this file at the URL
> 
> http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/logos/sorting-hat%2Egif 
> 
> To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
> 
> http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> r.yoo at scotland.com
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 


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From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 15 02:22:49 2000
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:22:49 AST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor
Message-ID: <F69G45MvpXxbr7FHiTT00002157@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5761

I think that Neville is a lot stronger than a lot of people think, and I 
think that that will be shown in the next books.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov 15 02:28:14 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:28:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] First draft to second draft
References: <8uql8n+6hnl@eGroups.com> <3A11D629.4F5FF4C5@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <006e01c04eab$f1993e20$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5762


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>

> I have never read whether she transcribes her first draft herself to
> manuscript, or even whether she prefers a typewriter or uses a computer
for
> her second draft.  I would be very very surprised, however, if she does
> allow someone else to transcribe that first draft to second draft.
> Transcribing drafts from one medium (handwritten) to another (typewritten)
> can be a very important part of the creative process for writers; it's an
> opportunity to take a fresh look at the material, and so many authors who
> transfer from handwritten draft to typewritten second draft use that
> opportunity to make changes as they transcribe.
>
> Peg

This is what happens in the majority of ASA that I write.  I write longhand
while I'm watching my kids.  I get my best writing done at the park or at
soccer practice.  Then I come home and type up the scene.  Most of the time
what goes into the computer is not verbatim what I wrote on the page.  The
basic scene structure is similar but the second version is better.   I've
had time to think about it and read through it a couple of times. I know
where the weaker spots are and generally fix things at that point (not that
it doesn't need fixing after that.)

carole






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Wed Nov 15 02:36:20 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 15 Nov 2000 02:36:20 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974255780.98080@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5763


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Merchandise/HPbedplus.tif 
  Uploaded by : heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  Description : The Harry Potter Sheet Set from the WB Catalog 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Merchandise/HPbedplus%2Etif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu
 






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Wed Nov 15 03:16:59 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 15 Nov 2000 03:16:59 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974258219.37084@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5764


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Dayton's Harry Potter Show/CLOSE019a.jpg 
  Uploaded by : pkerr06 at attglobal.net 
  Description : Since there has been so much interest in Draco, I decided to add this image, even though it's very dim.  Close up of Draco in the Forbidden Forest, standing disdainfully aloof as Harry, Hermione, and Neville examine silvery unicorn blood on ground.  Deep shadow.  I attempted to color correct to clarify more detail. 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/CLOSE019a%2Ejpg 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

pkerr06 at attglobal.net
 






From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov 15 03:22:11 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:22:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius! (And I'm serious....)
References: <3A11B3B2.39F95F1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008c01c04eb3$3ecfeb60$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5765


----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne Burns" <terzarima at earthlink.net>


> Okay, I guess I am now severely under the influence of all of Cassandra,
> Penny, Carol, and Lori's fanfictions-- I think Sirius is HOT. Enough of
> that though.I have another one of those continuity questions:

Yay! another convert!  not that anyone needs converting by me and
Penny...he's hot enough without us...we just nudge that fantasy along.   And
to add to the very old thread of...I'm Carole and I'm a Potterholic.  The
image I have of Sirius has popped into my head to attach itself to a
character in a completely unrelated book (well not completely unrelated in
that it is one of Peg's books)!  So HP characters are now showing up in
other books...is that bizarre or what!


>
> On GoF, in the scene in which Harry is talking to Sirius's head in the
> fire, he is described as looking a lot better, more recovered, than he
> was on PoA. His hair has been trimmed, his face is fuller, and as Harry
> observes, he looks more like the earlier pictures of himself.
>
> However when Sirius comes back to Hogsmeade and Harry and his friends go
> off to meet him, bringing him food, he is described once again as having
> long matted hair, thin and drawn faced.... and he is wearing the grey
> robes he wore in prison?
>
> What gives???

I agree with what Angela posted. When he talked to Harry in the fireplace he
had just gotten back to the UK from the tropics.  I am assuming he didn't
have to really hide while in the tropics.  He could go to a restaurant and
had a decent place to stay.  By the time they meet him in Hogsmead, he's had
to play the hiding game again, not being able to get a good meal or a decent
place to sleep or wash up.

carole






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 15 03:27:35 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:27:35 -0600
Subject: correct link on earlier message
Message-ID: <3A1202A7.20398FEF@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5766

I uploaded a Draco picture to the Dayton's Harry Potter Show file folder
but need to correct the link.  You can find the picture by going to the
folder:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Dayton%27s+Harry+Potter+Show/

and it's picture CAMTO019a.jpg

Sorry for the confusion.
Peg




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Nov 15 03:40:30 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:40:30 -0500
Subject: wand issue revisions
References: <8us2pk+e7ba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009a01c04eb5$e47e3f60$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5767

>
> Neil (trying to avoid flicking through every copy of GoF he sees)
>

Me, too...I was in Target (a discount chain here in the states...best store
there is for anything you need!) and picked up a GoF from the shelf and it
had the revision!  I almost bought it.  I really had a hard time deciding
whether to spen the $19 for 1 revised page...but its sooo significant!

And when I first read the revision I thought it didn't sound quite right,
with Harry refering to his mom, not his dad as the one he had been thinking
about a lot that evening.  Harry thinking about his dad does make
sense...but it could be argued, a bit lamely, that he had been thinking
about his mum and the protection she imparted on him...I'll have to go read
the passage again..its posted in the files section right?

just my 2 knuts worth

carole






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 15 04:07:46 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:07:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Professor/Neville's confidence in himself
References: <3A114314.A8C57C42@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A120C11.29295F8D@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5768



Suzanne Burns wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at h...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heidi Henshaw"
> > <hermione_heidi at h...> wrote:
> > > Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts
> > will be
> > > Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
> > >
> > Do we even know that Neville *is* good at Herbology? Or did 'Moody'
> > just say that he was good at Herbology as a way of getting the
> > Mediterranean aquatic plants book (its exact name has slipped my
> > memory at the moment :) into Harry's dormitory?
>
> Somewhere is GoF, before Moody takes Neville aside, Harry is startled
> when Neveille raises his hand to answer a question in DADA because he
> rarely volunteers an answer, except in Herbology, his best subject.
>
> The big irony-- and I really noticed it, having been a teacher for six
> years-- was that altough Moody's only interest was in getting the book
> into Harry's room, his encouragement of Neville still had a striking
> effect. Later in the chapter it states that Harry was not the only one
> staying up late that night thinking about things. So was Neville.

I think it isn't the faux Moody's encouragement that's making Neville lie
awake that night.  I think it's because he's suffering post-traumatic stress
syndrome from seeing faux Moody perform the Crucio curse in class that day.
Someone floated the idea awhile ago that Neville might have had his memory
altered with memory charms because he witnessed the attack on his parents.
Neville's poor memory is notorious--but he's obviously struggling with
something after class that day.  Is it just the knowledge that his parents
underwent what he just witnessed?  Or did his original memory suddenly come
flooding back?

> I think Neville very likely has a great deal of ability which is all
> laying dormant because of his lack of faith in himself-- a big stickler
> is his relationship with his domineering grandmother, who doesn't allow
> him much space to grow.

Yes--but a too-intrusive memory charm could be part of the problem, too.

Interesting.  I hope Neville will tell us what he remembers in a later
book.  This plot thread has suddenly made Neville much more
interesting--just like Snape.  The mysterious past intrigues . . .

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 15 03:38:25 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:38:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close  ups)  (re-sent)
References: <20001114133228.13611.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3A120531.D00BFA7A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5769

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> On Mon, 13 November 2000, Peg Kerr wrote:
>
> > P.S.: I just went and tried to tinker with the Draco Malfoy pictures that I have, thinking, well, maybe it's not so bad--maybe I could post it--but it's hopeless.  I did go back to the show specifically to try to get good picture of Draco in particular, since the fanfiction has spawned so many Draco fans.  Maybe there is something to your theory that there's something weird going on.
>
> I have a thought about this.  Has Draco been cast yet - that we know of?  I think it's possible that the answer is yes, it's someone pretty big in the movie industry, and all of the "shadow" figures are a big PR ploy to keep the character of Draco in the dark - so to speak.  Of course, this is all just conjecture on my part.

It's supposed to be Tom Felton--there's a picture of him in the files
section  Go to:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Cast+Photos/+Confirmed+Cast+Members/feltontom1.jpg

Peg



From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Nov 15 04:30:54 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:30:54 -0700
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEJOCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5770

Someone was wondering why there are no Draco products for sale to Harry
Potter fans.  I think the reason is that in the canon, Draco Malfoy is a
vile little Nazi with no apparent redeeming qualities.  None of the
marketing people would believe that the Draco of the first four HP books
would have fans, or want to be identified with him in any way.  I mean, this
guy attacks people from behind like a coward, and taunts Harry & friends
about Cedric's death.  He's slime, and Voldemort deserves the cold-hearted
little s.o.b. as a follower.

However, the fanfic Draco is a completely different person sharing nothing
but the same name with the canon character.  Fanfic Draco is a troubled guy
who has a noble side, just aching to be released from his Death Eater
upbringing and have a chance to hang out with Harry's crowd.  His
metamorphosis from canon to fanfic is really amazing to me.  The only
transformation I find to be seriously believable in the *canon* sense is the
one that Lori Summers proposes in "Paradigm of Uncertainty" -- her scenario
works.

Now Snape is a rotten guy in the canon, as well, and yet he DOES have some
redeeming qualities that he exhibits grudgingly.  Draco has none, IMHO.

(However, this does not prevent me from enjoying the various well-written
Draco fanfics, if the writers have the talent to create a believable
alternate universe.  But I don't see the REAL (canon) Draco ever deviating
from his petty mindset, unless he ends up experiencing some kind of
stomach-churning revulsion against his father and Voldemort, such as Lori
has written.)




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 04:32:59 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 04:32:59 -0000
Subject: First draft to second draft
In-Reply-To: <3A11D629.4F5FF4C5@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ut3lr+gc29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5771

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> I have never read whether she transcribes her first draft herself to
> manuscript, or even whether she prefers a typewriter or uses a 
computer for
> her second draft

Actually she did say in an interview that she types the second draft 
into the computer herself and edits in the process of doing so.  
Unfortunately, I cant remember which interview.  It may have been in 
one of the chats.

--Joywitch




From sinead at bu.edu  Wed Nov 15 04:46:17 2000
From: sinead at bu.edu (Sinead Clements)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:46:17 -0400
Subject: Hello...tiny little theory
References: <974254985.49130@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A121507.5699D3F8@bu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5772

*delurks from Lurkland*

Hi... I'm Sinead... a twentysomething-year-old fan of Harry Potter. No..
not that Sinead that sings... If anyone has any Sinead O'Connor jokes...
please take that egress and chuck those in a rubbish bin. (Trust me...
I'm a lame singer... can't even keep one monotone tune).. I'm one of
those women who think Harry will be dead sexy when he's my age (isn't
he? should be ten months older than me if we followed the HP Lexicon's
dates... perfect.. :::grins:::) 

*My tiny little theory* (why do I have a theory when i haven't read the
HP books in three months? dang college...no.. good college.. one less
distraction.... dang flatmates for being so loud and letting me not have
much sleep) 

Going into the tradition of a shippineshness... :::grins::: I know that
Voldemort takes something from Harry right? (mother's protection? my
limited HP knowledge is gradually evaporating until I read GoF again as
a *new* book) Can his mother's protection be replaced with another
girl's protection... namely Hermione? I'm beginning to see that love
vanquishes all evil in the book... maybe it might be the case in the
seventh book... anyway... getting to the point of the theory... what I
am saying may garner responses of "Oh, thats so cliche" (shh, just a
theory)... I'm thinking at a point in the fifth through seventh books,
Harry and Hermione are once again placed in a desparate situation alone
(SS/PS has them in a desparate situation in which Hermione hugs Harry)
and they are clutching each other as they watch the evil powers get
closer and closer... Harry, thinking this may be the last time he'd see
Hermione again (or the other way around... moving along) gives her a
kiss. Badum-badum-badum it's the kind of kiss that would send me onto
Cloud Nine and three-quarters... they break apart (presumably before the
evil superpower forces arrive) and Harry is glowing with an aura of
lumniscience, it seems that Hermione has given Harry the lost protection
which may be a little stronger. (in other words: GO HARRY/HERMIONE
SHIPPERS :::grins hardily:::) 

I'm thinking I've read something similiar someplace... perhaps in Enid
Blyton's books... Anyway.. I'll be home for thanksgiving next week and
I'll be doing some quick catching up before my family pries the books
out of my fingers before flying back to school...

Sinead

*crawls back to Lurkland*



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 05:03:58 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:03:58 -0000
Subject: Hello...tiny little theory
In-Reply-To: <3A121507.5699D3F8@bu.edu>
Message-ID: <8ut5fv+b0h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5773

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Sinead Clements <sinead at b...> wrote:
> *delurks from Lurkland*
> 
> Hi... I'm Sinead... a twentysomething-year-old fan of Harry Potter. 
No..
> not that Sinead that sings... If anyone has any Sinead O'Connor 
jokes...
> please take that egress and chuck those in a rubbish bin. (Trust 
me...
> I'm a lame singer... can't even keep one monotone tune).. I'm one of
> those women who think Harry will be dead sexy when he's my age 
(isn't
> he? should be ten months older than me if we followed the HP 
Lexicon's
> dates... perfect.. :::grins:::) 
> 
> *My tiny little theory* (why do I have a theory when i haven't read 
the
> HP books in three months? dang college...no.. good college.. one 
less
> distraction.... dang flatmates for being so loud and letting me not 
have
> much sleep) 
> 
> Going into the tradition of a shippineshness... :::grins::: I know 
that
> Voldemort takes something from Harry right? (mother's protection? my
> limited HP knowledge is gradually evaporating until I read GoF 
again as
> a *new* book) Can his mother's protection be replaced with another
> girl's protection... namely Hermione? I'm beginning to see that love
> vanquishes all evil in the book... maybe it might be the case in the
> seventh book... anyway... getting to the point of the theory... 
what I
> am saying may garner responses of "Oh, thats so cliche" (shh, just a
> theory)... I'm thinking at a point in the fifth through seventh 
books,
> Harry and Hermione are once again placed in a desparate situation 
alone
> (SS/PS has them in a desparate situation in which Hermione hugs 
Harry)
> and they are clutching each other as they watch the evil powers get
> closer and closer... Harry, thinking this may be the last time he'd 
see
> Hermione again (or the other way around... moving along) gives her a
> kiss. Badum-badum-badum it's the kind of kiss that would send me 
onto
> Cloud Nine and three-quarters... they break apart (presumably 
before the
> evil superpower forces arrive) and Harry is glowing with an aura of
> lumniscience, it seems that Hermione has given Harry the lost 
protection
> which may be a little stronger. (in other words: GO HARRY/HERMIONE
> SHIPPERS :::grins hardily:::) 
> 
> I'm thinking I've read something similiar someplace... perhaps in 
Enid
> Blyton's books... Anyway.. I'll be home for thanksgiving next week 
and
> I'll be doing some quick catching up before my family pries the 
books
> out of my fingers before flying back to school...
> 
> Sinead
> 
> *crawls back to Lurkland*


in the spirit of accessible communication....

I find it hard to read posts which have "grins" every two lines
and  says "badum badum badum"

Perhaps I'm a cranky old fogy, but please translate.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 05:08:50 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:08:50 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Protections
In-Reply-To: <8us892+dd5b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ut5p2+9l4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5774

In more than one of the books, it discusses Dumbledore's protection
of Harry and of Hogwarts.

In the Goblet of Fire, Voldemort states that he could not touch
Harry while Harry was under Dumbledore's protections.

It is stated that while Voldemort was in power, Hogwarts was
one of the few safe places.

However, is clear that Dumbledore cannot protect Harry when he
is not at Hogwarts.

Does anyone have ideas about how this works? Are Dumbledore's
protective abilities tied up with the magic of Hogwarts (similar to 
Charles  DeLint's Moonheart?)

Susan




From atelecky at mit.edu  Wed Nov 15 05:11:15 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:11:15 -0000
Subject: Memory charms, Imperius, Harry and Neville
In-Reply-To: <3A120C11.29295F8D@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ut5tj+j1mp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5775

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> I think it isn't the faux Moody's encouragement that's making 
Neville lie
> awake that night.  I think it's because he's suffering 
post-traumatic stress
> syndrome from seeing faux Moody perform the Crucio curse in class 
that day.
> Someone floated the idea awhile ago that Neville might have had his 
memory
> altered with memory charms because he witnessed the attack on his 
parents.
> Neville's poor memory is notorious--but he's obviously struggling 
with
> something after class that day.  Is it just the knowledge that his 
parents
> underwent what he just witnessed?  Or did his original memory 
suddenly come
> flooding back?
> 

I think that is a neat idea-that Neville was given a memory charm to 
forget what he saw when his parents were tortured by the Lestranges 
and Crouch fils. I wonder if Harry himself might not have been given a 
memory charm when he was young? It has been mentioned that Harry 
whereabouts for 24 hours after his parents' death are unknown, and 
furthermore, there is a strange thing about the final scene in GoF. 
When Voldemort puts Harry under the Imperius Curse, the narrator 
informs us that this is the third time in his life that Harry has felt 
the strange sort of pleasure that this curse causes. Harry has been 
put under the Imperius Curse before by Moody, but only on the one 
occasion. He was put under several times during this one class "until 
he could shake it off entirely", but we are told this took "no less 
than four times", so these are not being counted as separate. The 
symptoms of a memory charm are supposed to be very similar to those of 
the Imperius Curse--when Mr. Roberts the Muggle is given a memory 
charm, Harry recognizes his "look of dreamy unconcern" as the look of 
one whose memory has been recently modified. Since the narrator says 
it is the third time that Harry himself has felt this way, not the 
third time that he was hit with the Imperius Curse, a memory charm 
might fit the bill. It might even have been Harry's mother who gave 
him the memory charm, if it was for his own good; her wand was 
supposed to have been a "nice wand for charm work". 
Thoughts on this, anyone?
Alexandra





From sinead at bu.edu  Wed Nov 15 05:24:21 2000
From: sinead at bu.edu (Sinead Clements)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:24:21 -0000
Subject: Hello...tiny little theory
In-Reply-To: <8ut5fv+b0h9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ut6m5+fmnp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5776

> in the spirit of accessible communication....
> 
> I find it hard to read posts which have "grins" every two lines
> and  says "badum badum badum"
> 
> Perhaps I'm a cranky old fogy, but please translate.
> 
> Susan

*delurks*

Ooh.. I'm sorry... I'll cut back on those, I promise... it does seem to 
be quite discountenancing... I'm quite a conversationalist when it comes 
to posts... I hope I haven't imposed any qualmish first impressions 
(that was the first time posting for me on this so forgive me)

I was just saying that Harry and Hermione... stuck in a desparate 
situation.. clutching each other as the superlatively evil powers 
conscend upon them and since Harry thinks its the last time he'll ever 
see Hermione again (or another girl again for that matter) kisses her in 
that kind of way... and she, for that she has a certain amount of heart 
for him, gives him some protection (NOTE: she simply uses her powers, 
she doesn't lose the protection she had in the first place)

That a little bit better? 

Sorry for the confusion.... 

Sinead

*goes back to lurkdom to work on math problems* 





From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Nov 15 05:32:48 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:32:48 -0000
Subject: New Sibling eGroup for Posting Graphics
Message-ID: <8ut760+9jo0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5777

A new eGroup, HPforGrownUps-Graphics, has been set up for storage of 
our rapidly expanding collection of graphic files.  Please read the 
file "Guidelines.txt" in the Files area for more information 
(instructions for using the new group are near the end of the file).  
The Guidelines file also contains recommendations for keeping our 
existing Files area organized and tidy. I posted these with the List 
Mom's permission.

Please try using the new eGroup if you have large collections of 
files to post. Let me know if you have any problems posting or 
viewing files.

-Jim Flanagan




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Nov 15 08:44:39 2000
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (Cassandra Claire)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:44:39 -0000
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEJOCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8utidn+d4v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5778

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> Someone was wondering why there are no Draco products for sale to 
Harry Potter fans.  I think the reason is that in the canon, Draco 
Malfoy is a vile little Nazi with no apparent redeeming qualities.  
None of the marketing people would believe that the Draco of the 
first four HP books would have fans, or want to be identified with 
him in any way.  I mean, this guy attacks people from behind like a 
coward, and taunts Harry & friends about Cedric's death.  He's slime, 
and Voldemort deserves the cold-hearted little s.o.b. as a follower.
> 
> However, the fanfic Draco is a completely different person sharing 
nothing but the same name with the canon character(snip)  (However, 
this does not prevent me from enjoying the various well-written Draco 
fanfics, if the writers have the talent to create a believable 
alternate universe.  But I don't see the REAL (canon) Draco ever 
deviating from his petty mindset, unless he ends up experiencing some 
kind of stomach-churning revulsion against his father and Voldemort, 
such as Lori has written.)
----------
*blinks* I don't think anyone was seriously wondering that, were 
they? I mean, I thought we were joking. Ah, well. I think the source 
of Draco's enormous popularity in fanfic is that he's blond, and 
that's about it. Although much alternate reading of the canon 
(complete with textual examples) trying to prove the thesis that he's 
actually a conflicted character, can be found over on the hpslash 
egroup. If one were interested.

cassandra






From managirl19 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 11:32:26 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 06:32:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Memory charms, Imperius, Harry and Neville
Message-ID: <2f.ce9e785.2743ce4a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5779

In a message dated 11/15/2000 12:12:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
atelecky at mit.edu writes:

> supposed to have been a "nice wand for charm work". 
>  Thoughts on this, anyone?
>  Alexandra
>  

Wow, this is great. It makes comlete sense: because why would a mother want 
her son to remember? And combined with the wand order issue, it proves that 
so many things happened in that house that we can only begin to predict.

I also liked that part with Neville: His parents were aurors. He had to 
aquire so sort of talent from them. An excellent thought about the memory 
charm: I never would have eve thought twice about poor nevile.

Mana
-------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Morgana le Fay</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">FanFiction.net</A>
formerly Allegria Winselvern and Lupin's Girl
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From managirl19 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 11:41:21 2000
From: managirl19 at aol.com (managirl19 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 06:41:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Memory charms, Imperius, Harry and Neville
Message-ID: <4e.d74d307.2743d061@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5780

What about a sleeping charm on Harry (I just realise this as I start reading 
another fic: meaning somebody else thought of it too) so that when they were 
suspicious of danger, Harry would just sleep.. and a sleeping cham would be 
rather simple, wouldn't it? Lily could perform it with ease.

Mana
-------------------------------------------------------------
<A 
HREF="http://fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1

5404">Morgana le Fay</A> at <A HREF="http://fanfiction.net">FanFiction.net</A>
formerly Allegria Winselvern and Lupin's Girl
e-mail: managirl19 at aol.com

Contacts
AOL Instant Messenger : managirl19
MSN Messenger: psycho_mana at hotmail.com
ICQ # 84665215 Screen Name: Mana
Yahoo Messenger: psycho_mana
Napster: PlatinumGarbage

Websites
<A HREF="http://the-basement.geekvillage.com">Mana's Basement</A>*
<A HREF="http://wizardingbulgaria.cjb.net">Wizarding Bulgaria and Durmstrang 
Institute</A>*

<A HREF="http://virtualhp.s5.com">Virtual Harry Potter</A>
<A HREF="http://beauxbatons_academy.homestead.com/">Beauxbatons</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/5101/index.html">
The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club</A>

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/1900/index.html">
Encyclopedia Potterica</A>
*Websites that are mine



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov 15 11:49:34 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 06:49:34 -0500
Subject: Wavin' Magic Wands (song)
References: <8us2pk+e7ba@eGroups.com> <009a01c04eb5$e47e3f60$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <000801c04efa$205b0380$74c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5781

Another in an occasional series.....

(I picture this something like Gene Wilder and Peter Boyle in Young
Frankenstein: the lights go out, and Harry and Hagrid, discovered impeccably
attired in stylish tux, top hat, and canes, commence to soft shoe.....) :

Wavin' Magic Wands (to the tune of Puttin' on the Ritz)

If you're sort of out-of-sorts,
Then transport from nine and three-quarts
To Diagon
Wavin' magic wands
Come and ease in where the Malfoys and the Weasleys shop with their boys
Including Ron
Wavin' magic wands

There's no place on Earth I'd rather dally
Then in the pubs of that enchanted Alley  (Shall we sally?)

Come, let's stroll to Ollivander's
And change trolls to salamanders
In blue ponds
Wavin' magic wands

You can get there via floo
Take your time, enjoy the view
Gringotts' and all its riches
Wondrous shops in quaint niches
Black cloaks, outdoor cafes
Japes' jokes, sure to amaze
Spending all our Galleons
As if they came from leprechauns

If you're poutin', down-at-the-mouth,
Take that south route headin' out
To the Leaky Cauldron
Wavin' magic wands
Wavin' magic wands
Wavin' magic wands.....

 - CMC






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov 15 12:03:10 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:03:10 -0000
Subject: GoF "not even considered" for 2000 Whitbread prize
Message-ID: <8utu1u+g3sc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5782

In the UK, The Guardian reports that JKR has missed out on this 
year's Whitbread book awards.  Last year, she won the Children's 
category with PoA, but missed out on the overall prize.  

IMO, the article is written from a rather negative perspective, which 
seems to hint that GoF can't be up to much if it wasn't at least 
shortlisted for the Whitbread prize.  It also emphasises the "dark 
nature" of three of the four nominees in the Children's category, 
which (a) could be implying that GoF wasn't excluded because of its 
supposed darker content and (b) indicates that the reporter and 
Whitbread judges considered GoF to be a children's book.

Here's the full article:

http://www.booksunlimited.co.uk/whitbread2000/story/0,6194,397635,00.h
tml

Neil




From john at walton.to  Wed Nov 15 12:45:07 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:45:07 +0000
Subject: Centaurs
Message-ID: <B63835D3.8024%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5783

Okay, wacky theory coming up. I've been re-listening to Philosopher's Stone
and something struck me. What are the Centaurs going to do in subsequent
books? They seem to be seers -- will they and Sybil Trelawney work together?
Is Sybil Trelawney a centaur (it IS hazy in her room, after all...)? Will
they teach Ron to be a seer, as has been proposed recently (possibly not on
this list, tho'.) And who really killed JFK?

Quick Analysis of Centaur names:

FIRENZE: Italian for "Florence" (the city with all the museums)
BANE: v. to strike, kill. From Old English bana, slayer, cause of ruin or
destruction. n. Fatal injury or ruin ; A cause of death, destruction, or
ruin ; A deadly poison (Dictionary.com)
RONAN: Former member of Boyzone (kidding, kidding...). Irish name, not
listed in dictionary.

That's all I have.

--John

=====================================================
John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From jciesla at madbbs.com  Wed Nov 15 13:40:29 2000
From: jciesla at madbbs.com (Julia L. Ciesla)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:40:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wavin' Magic Wands (song)
In-Reply-To: <000801c04efa$205b0380$74c54b0c@cq5wu>
References: <8us2pk+e7ba@eGroups.com> <009a01c04eb5$e47e3f60$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001115084029.0079ba50@mail.madbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5784

*laughs*  This is great!!  I needed a pick-me-up before heading off to a
9am meeting at work (after working the evening shift).  I'm assuming this
will be put in the archives?

Julia


At 06:49 AM 11/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Another in an occasional series.....
>
>(I picture this something like Gene Wilder and Peter Boyle in Young
>Frankenstein: the lights go out, and Harry and Hagrid, discovered impeccably
>attired in stylish tux, top hat, and canes, commence to soft shoe.....) :
>
>Wavin' Magic Wands (to the tune of Puttin' on the Ritz)




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 15 14:21:15 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:21:15 -0500
Subject: The "Stuff-it" lawsuit, more legal input
Message-ID: <3A129BDA.A19EDC3F@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5785

Hello there everyone, and especially Heidi who I know is working on the
FAQ:

I have been following up on my quest to dig up every single absurdity
that exists (the list is endless) in Stouffer's claims against Rowling.
I found a lawyer/writer who keeps a journal on the web, and who
apparently actually managed to get his hands on Stouffer's text. He
published a short rant about what an opportunistic hag she is (albiet he
used more legally acceptable language than I am), and confirmed what is
pretty much obvious to us all, that there is no similarity.

I wrote to him and asked him where on earth he found the texts, since my
own search was utterly fruitless (even the Library of Congress does not
have the books). His reply, with a few other legal points:

"The U of I Education Library is where I found them--there's a special
kids' books collection. They're long out of print, which just makes the
problem that much worse. As a matter of trademark law, it's arguable
that
(even if she had a case at all) she abandoned the mark by not taking
action the instant the book hit the shores here--she waited for a movie
deal to be announced. There's another abandonment argument in the
failure
to continue exploitation since the books went out of print several years

back.

I didn't have to look in the OED. I lived "over there" for several
years,
during which I heard "muggle" tossed at the Yanks quite frequently . .
."

Two things:

1.)  First of all I want to obtain the texts and put together a document
in which I really examine Stouffer's claims-- according to this
gentleman, she is massively stretching things to claim that there is ANY
similarity at all. Legally how much can I quote from the text without
running afoul of "fair use"?

2.)  What do our legal experts here on HP for Grownups think about what
Jon says above about "abandonment"? I was wondering about this earlier
because all the records I found indicated that Stouffer NEVER had a
trademark at all, and right now only has a trademark pending.

Thanks guys-- I know this issue has pretty much hit "dead horse" status.
It sounds like nobody is taking it seriously. But until a final decision
is reached, my little claws are out and doing their work.

Cheerfully,

Suzanne/Rainy Lilac




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 15 14:26:06 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:26:06 -0500
Subject: Neville's memory
Message-ID: <3A129CFE.1ADEF8CD@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5786

>>>>>>>>>>>I think it isn't the faux Moody's encouragement that's making
Neville lie
awake that night. I think it's because he's suffering post-traumatic
stress
syndrome from seeing faux Moody perform the Crucio curse in class that
day.
Someone floated the idea awhile ago that Neville might have had his
memory
altered with memory charms because he witnessed the attack on his
parents.
Neville's poor memory is notorious--but he's obviously struggling with
something after class that day. Is it just the knowledge that his
parents
underwent what he just witnessed? Or did his original memory suddenly
come
flooding back?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...... Poor memory... Memory charm.... Remember how
someone said that Bertha Jorkins's memory got messed up by a memory
charm? Everyone kept saying that it would be like her to get lost for a
month, that she's a flake, etc. SOmeone somewhere along the line
attributed this to the memory charm.



>>>>>>>>>>>Interesting. I hope Neville will tell us what he remembers in
a later
book. This plot thread has suddenly made Neville much more
interesting--just like Snape. The mysterious past intrigues . . .

I agree and now knowing what we know about his parents, there is NO WAY
that this isn't going to become more important later on. Also remember
that Neville's parents are not dead-- they were driven mad. Could their
curse be reversed?? Could they return to fight Voldemort?

Suzanne




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 15 15:10:34 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:10:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Professor/Neville's confidence in himself
References: <3A114314.A8C57C42@earthlink.net> <3A120C11.29295F8D@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A12A769.FBDFAD17@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5787

Peg Kerr wrote:

> Yes--but a too-intrusive memory charm could be part of the problem, too.

I'm still hooked by that recent idea someone posted, that the torturers of
Neville's parents placed a strong memory charm on *him* so he could not identify
them...and his memory was damaged. His family thus is not the one making his
memory awful, they're trying to help him recover (in various, colorful ways).

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 15 15:19:44 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:19:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Centaurs
References: <B63835D3.8024%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <3A12A990.7D72DA3F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5788

John, look in the archives. There was a bit of discussion about the centaurs and
the significance of their names and possible roles about a month ago, I think. I
don't remember what the upshot was.

--Amanda

John Walton wrote:

> Okay, wacky theory coming up. I've been re-listening to Philosopher's Stone
> and something struck me. What are the Centaurs going to do in subsequent
> books? They seem to be seers -- will they and Sybil Trelawney work together?
> Is Sybil Trelawney a centaur (it IS hazy in her room, after all...)? Will
> they teach Ron to be a seer, as has been proposed recently (possibly not on
> this list, tho'.) And who really killed JFK?
>
> Quick Analysis of Centaur names:
>
> FIRENZE: Italian for "Florence" (the city with all the museums)
> BANE: v. to strike, kill. From Old English bana, slayer, cause of ruin or
> destruction. n. Fatal injury or ruin ; A cause of death, destruction, or
> ruin ; A deadly poison (Dictionary.com)
> RONAN: Former member of Boyzone (kidding, kidding...). Irish name, not
> listed in dictionary.
>
> That's all I have.
>
> --John
>
> =====================================================
> John Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920
>
> I'm sure George W. Bush isn't dyslexic.
> Why, he's never even been to Dyslexia.
>
> Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
> =====================================================
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 15 15:28:45 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:28:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Memory charms, Imperius, Harry and Neville
References: <8ut5tj+j1mp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A12ABAD.DF591E8A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5789

atelecky at mit.edu wrote:

> I wonder if Harry himself might not have been given a
> memory charm when he was young? It has been mentioned that Harry
> whereabouts for 24 hours after his parents' death are unknown, and
> furthermore, there is a strange thing about the final scene in GoF.
> When Voldemort puts Harry under the Imperius Curse, the narrator
> informs us that this is the third time in his life that Harry has felt
> the strange sort of pleasure that this curse causes. Harry has been
> put under the Imperius Curse before by Moody, but only on the one
> occasion. He was put under several times during this one class "until
> he could shake it off entirely", but we are told this took "no less
> than four times", so these are not being counted as separate. The
> symptoms of a memory charm are supposed to be very similar to those of
> the Imperius Curse--when Mr. Roberts the Muggle is given a memory
> charm, Harry recognizes his "look of dreamy unconcern" as the look of
> one whose memory has been recently modified. Since the narrator says
> it is the third time that Harry himself has felt this way, not the
> third time that he was hit with the Imperius Curse, a memory charm
> might fit the bill. It might even have been Harry's mother who gave
> him the memory charm, if it was for his own good; her wand was
> supposed to have been a "nice wand for charm work".
> Thoughts on this, anyone?

I think you're reaching a bit, especially about his mother doing it, because
by all accounts Voldemort took them totally by surprise. I really doubt, in
the fear and confusion, that the possibility of Harry having a bad memory of
the event was Lily's paramount concern.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 15 15:32:01 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:32:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Protections
References: <8ut5p2+9l4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A12AC71.EC88DEEA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5790

Susan McGee wrote:

> Does anyone have ideas about how this works? Are Dumbledore's
> protective abilities tied up with the magic of Hogwarts (similar to
> Charles  DeLint's Moonheart?)

It's been eons since I read Moonheart, so I'm not clear with the
reference--is this the house, being the extension and ultimately
personification-in-large of its owner? I tend to blend my Charles deLint,
because he has his characters run about and meet each other in different
books. Anyway, you have a point. I think there's some sort of "bonding"
that's occurred between Dumbledore and Hogwarts. It's almost a big extension
of him. Either he draws on it, or it draws on him, or both. Thoughts?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 15 15:34:46 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:34:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hello...tiny little theory
References: <974254985.49130@egroups.com> <3A121507.5699D3F8@bu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A12AD15.86724E85@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5791

Sinead Clements wrote:

>  Badum-badum-badum it's the kind of kiss that would send me onto
> Cloud Nine and three-quarters... they break apart (presumably before the
> evil superpower forces arrive) and Harry is glowing with an aura of
> lumniscience, it seems that Hermione has given Harry the lost protection
> which may be a little stronger. (in other words: GO HARRY/HERMIONE
> SHIPPERS :::grins hardily:::)

Alas, you understand it wasn't simply his mother's love that saved him. It
was that she loved him enough to die for him. All of her that could love
went to shielding him. I fear that for Hermione to shield Harry, too, she
would have to do so by such a sacrifice, especially since she's not blood
kin, which I think had something to do with it, too. I doubt all you
Harry/Hermione fans want her to die for him, eh?

--Amanda




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Wed Nov 15 16:47:52 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:47:52 -0000
Subject: Centaurs
In-Reply-To: <B63835D3.8024%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8uueno+1rlj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5792

Ronan may make reference to a Samuri that has no lord to 
serve, altough that is spelled Ronin. 
Just a thought,
Dave




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Wed Nov 15 16:50:16 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 15 Nov 2000 16:50:16 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974307016.45768@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5793


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Are you interested in continuing the 
chapter & character summaries for Goblet 
of Fire? 

  o Yes, I look forward to them each week 
  o Yes, I don't often comment but I always enjoy them 
  o No, they aren't really stimulating discussion 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 15 16:57:05 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:57:05 -0000
Subject: A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO
Message-ID: <8uuf91+350q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5794

               A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO

I'll bet you're too cheap to shell out a few Galleons for a Wizard 
Radio so I made a transcript of a recent broadcast.
================================= 
[The closing notes of The Weird Sisters famous tune "The Azkaban 
Blues" can be heard fading away]

Announcer: This is The Wizard Broadcasting Network. The time is 9pm.
  
Onrobonob: Hello I'm Omar Onrobonob and welcome to Witch Writer, the 
longest running series on wizard radio. Today it is my pleasure to 
have in our studios Arabella Figg and she is of course the author of 
the hugely popular series of Martin Miggs books. Her first 
novel "Martin Miggs the Mad Muggle" burst upon the literary scene 
three yeas ago and quickly went to number 1 on the wizard best 
selling list, and even today it is number 4, beaten only by her other 
3 books, "Martin Miggs And The Internet", "Martin Miggs And The Rise 
Of The NASDAQ" and "Martin Miggs And The Tax Audit". With only 4 
books written in a planed 7 part series She is already the best 
selling witch in history. How did you come up with the idea for 
Martin?

Figg: I was on the train to Hogwarts to confer with my boss when out 
of the blue I pictured a brilliant muggle boy who could do no magic 
but could do things even more amazing just by using his wits. For the 
last 7 years my job only kept me really busy for 2 month in the 
summer so I had plenty of time to write. 

Onrobonob: And an interesting job you had too, I want to go into that 
a little later but first my two kids made me promise to ask you if 
Martin will go bankrupt at the end of book 7?

Figg:[laughing] Now you didn't expect me to tell you that did you?

Onrobonob: No I guess not, but there is a scene in the last book 
where one of the characters suffers a horrifying bankruptcy; people 
love Martin and are worried the same thing will happen to him. After 
all the stock in Martin's "NASDAQ" company is way down and he's been 
having all that trouble with "accounts receivable". I hope I 
pronounced those words correctly.

Figg: Yes you did. Children always ask about the company's price 
earnings ratio, and if Martin's best friend John will betray him and 
join forces with the evil Taxman, I'm flattered they care so much 
about one of my fictional characters but you'll just have to wait and 
see.

Onrobonob: For me the most beautiful and delightful thing the books 
is your invention of the "Internet", I found the chapter on TCP/IP 
packet exchange authorization and nonlinear error correcting codes 
and protocols absolutely charming!

Figg: That and the chapter about the CMOS Epitaxial Semiconductor 
Foundry are the chapters children seem to enjoy the most.

Onrobonob: Yes, and you describe it so exquisitely, so poetically, 
that I almost started to feel like this fantasy world could actually 
exist.

Figg: Well that's the trick in writing fantasy isn't it, you've got 
to make it seem real. I just got to thinking how people could 
communicate if they couldn't use owls or even do the simplest magic, 
and then I just let my imagination run wild.

Onrobonob: We have to pause now to hear a word from our sponsor, but 
when we come back I want to ask about your job which was as 
fascinating as anything in your books. We'll be right back.
==================
advertisement
[The sounds of The Quidditch world cup can be heard in the background]

ED: Wow, did you see that Ed? Victor Krum almost got hit in the head 
with a Bludger!

TED: I sure did Ed, but with my new Subjunctive Spyscope I also saw 
what would have happened if the Bludger had hit him. My Subjunctive 
Spyscope can show me what the present would be like if things were 
different, I know what the game would have been like if it had been 
raining, or snowing, or what would have happened if Krum were playing 
Quidditch in a wedding dress. It's fun to see how small apparently 
unrelated events can change things, you should see what that last 
play would be like if Schubert had finished his unfinished symphony 
more than a century ago! I even saw what the game would have been 
like if iron floated or if 2+2=5 or if a rolling stone did gather 
moss.

ED: Wow, my Omnioculars can't do that!

TED: And I don't just use it for Quidditch, a Subjunctive Spyscope is 
great fun at parties. Last night I used it to see what things would 
look like if I'd married my old girlfriend Susan Piccolo when I was 
19 instead of my wife.

ED: Wow, a Subjunctive Spyscope must be expensive!

TED: Not at all ED, a Subjunctive Spyscope cost just 15 Galleons, 
that's not much more than what Omnioculars cost, and they do so much 
more.

ED: Wow, where can I buy a Subjunctive Spyscope?

Ted: You can only buy a Subjunctive Spyscope at Weasley's Wizard 
Wheezes.

ED: Wow, I'm going to buy a Subjunctive Spyscope at Weasley's Wizard 
Wheezes today!

Ted: You'll be glad you did!
=======================
Onrobonob: We're back, I'm talking to author Arabella Figg. I say 
author but in addition to your enormous success as a writer you've 
had an entire other life that I think is even more important, you 
played a unique part in the pro
======================== 
Skeeter: We interrupt this program for a special report I'm Rita 
Skeeter. All charges of antitrust violation and monopolizing the joke 
business made against Weasley Industries have just been dismissed by 
a magical court of justice. This stunning defeat of The Ministry Of 
Magic does not come as a total surprise to keen courtroom observers 
such as your humble reporter. Neville Longbottom has conducted an 
inept unfocused prosecution, he was unable to concentrate and at 
times he almost seemed afraid of the Weasley Industries defense 
council. Most were puzzled when the Weasley brothers put Severus 
Snape in charge of their defense, nobody could have predicted what a 
masterful job he would end up doing or that the prosecution would 
collapse at just the same time. It seems probable that the Weasley 
brothers, already the richest wizards on earth, will soon become even 
richer. I'll have more analysis on this developing story at the top 
of the hour. We now return you to Witch Writer, in progress. 
=======================
ragedy but I'm sure he wouldn't want us to dwell on that, life goes 
on. 

Onrobonob: Fascinating! That's the first time all those details have 
ever been made public. Let me get back to your life as a author and 
I'm sure you're asked this all the time but did some of your 
inspiration for Martin Miggs came from the life of Harry Potter, 
particularly at the end when Harry [show theme music starts to fade 
in] Oh I'm sorry, my producer tells me we're out of time, we'll have 
to invite you to continue this on another show. Thank you for being 
on Witch Writer.

Figg: Thank you, and thanks for not asking if Martin Miggs glamorizes 
un-wizarding values.

Onrobonob: [laughs] Some things are just too silly to discuss. Next 
week my guest will be Poppy Pomfrey and we'll talk about bubotuber 
pus. Goodnight.
===========================
DJ: Ok you wacky wizards and wild witches it's time to hear this 
weeks number one hit in the entire magical musical world, it's Dean 
Thomas with "I cursed the Auror, But I Didn't Kill The Deputy Too".





From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov 15 17:00:46 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:00:46 -0600
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions (Please Read)
Message-ID: <3A12C13D.BA63FF15@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5795

Hi --

It's Wednesday, and we've had no chapter or character summary for this
week.  I just tried to find out who is responsible for this week, but
Melanie's site with our weekly assignments is not working at the moment.

I've just set up a new poll to see how people feel about continuing
these chapter & character summaries.  We have over 400 members (so I'd
love to get 25% turnout on the poll if possible!).

I'm finding that it's always up to me to nag at the person who signed up
to get their chapter & character discussion done for the week, and
oftentimes, I don't remember myself that it's missing until mid-week.
I'm also noting that the summaries don't seem to be stimulating a
tremendous amount of discussion.  Ebony raised a number of fun questions
in her Chapter 18 summary last week, and as best I recall, no one made a
stab at responding (including me).  I think some summaries have
stimulated discussion (Fudge for example), and so, I decided to poll the
group.

We are getting into the more meaty chapters & the more complex
characters.  This means 2 things in my mind: (1) the likelihood to
stimulate discussions increases and (2) the time & effort that will be
required to create the character summary for the more complex characters
increases tremendously.  If, as a group, we're not too terribly
interested in continuing the discussions, then I'd rather cut it off now
rather than have people going to alot of work to create character
summaries for the major characters who appear in all 4 books.

So, please vote in the poll, and feel free to send your general thoughts
to the list.  I personally always enjoy reading them, but haven't
necessarily felt compelled to chime in very often (or haven't had the
time when it was relevant).  I thought Ebony posed some rather
interesting & fun questions last week, but I was extremely busy so I
punted on that.

To be honest, my overall thought is that I wouldn't mind so much if they
weren't stimulating discussion *if* it wasn't always up to me to put out
reminder notices.  I just don't have the time to keep up with one more
thing.  I keep a datebook, and my dates for Ch 35 & Hermione are already
pencilled in for next April.  They'll be done ahead of time in case the
baby decides to arrive early but you get the point.  If everyone was
keeping up with their assignment . . . it would be nice.

Vote!  Another chance for your vote to be heard (<g>) --

Penny




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 17:40:09 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:40:09 -0000
Subject: A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO
In-Reply-To: <8uuf91+350q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uuhpp+f75r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5796

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
>                A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO

I hate it when people clog up the siliconwaves with obvious comments 
but I am going to do it anyway: I LOVED your transcript, Eggplant, it 
was VERY clever and funny. 

>"Martin Miggs And The Internet", "Martin Miggs And The Rise 
> Of The NASDAQ" and "Martin Miggs And The Tax Audit

our little muggle lives sure are boring.  No wonder we are all 
obsessed with Harry Potter.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 17:48:48 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:48:48 -0000
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions (Please Read)
In-Reply-To: <3A12C13D.BA63FF15@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uuia0+nt43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5797

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny wrote:

> To be honest, my overall thought is that I wouldn't mind so much if 
they
> weren't stimulating discussion *if* it wasn't always up to me to 
put out
> reminder notices.  I just don't have the time to keep up with one 
more
> thing.

OK, for once I volunteer to be useful.  As might be expected of 
someone who lives in a gingerbread house and boils children in her 
cauldron, I am pretty good at nagging.  I volunteer to send out email 
reminders each week to the person whos turn it is to do the summary, 
and then remail them on Tuesday and threaten to turn them into toads, 
and then use the Imperius Curse if they havent completed their 
summaries by Friday.  Assuming, of course, that we continue to do the 
summaries.

--Joywitch




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov 15 18:29:25 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:29:25 -0000
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions (Please Read)
In-Reply-To: <3A12C13D.BA63FF15@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uukm5+kqeq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5798

Penny commented on Chapter/Character summaries:

Firstly, this week it's supposed to be Jess writing about Molly 
Weasley and Chapter 19, 'The Hungarian Horntail'.  Jess, where art 
thou?

Penny said:

<<<I'm finding that it's always up to me to nag at the person who 
signed up to get their chapter & character discussion done for the 
week, and oftentimes, I don't remember myself that it's missing until 
mid-week. I'm also noting that the summaries don't seem to be 
stimulating a tremendous amount of discussion.  Ebony raised a number 
of fun questions in her Chapter 18 summary last week, and as best I 
recall, no one made a stab at responding (including me).>>>

**

As I recall, we started this project to give ourselves things to 
discuss until close to the release of Book 5, in the naive belief 
that the postings might die down after a few months and we'd be left 
twiddling our thumbs. Yeah, right. 

I've voted and said that I don't always respond, but I do like 
reading the summaries.  I've forgotten more about GoF than I've 
remembered, so the chapter summaries in particular are a great memory-
jogger.  

I enjoyed Ebony's recent post. However, she did challenge us to 
prepare mini works of fanfic and I hadn't got time to try that, great 
idea though it was.  I wanted to say something about Ollivander, but 
the moment passed.    

Perhaps we could enter all the summaries into the Files area so that 
people can read them independently of the ongoing threads and make 
comments as and when they wish?  They could still be prepared to the 
timetable, but the discussions wouldn't have to be concurrent.

The next character summary I'm due to submit is the one on Snape, 
early next year.  I think it's safe to say we will have discussed 
Snape *to death* by then, so people may think writing a character 
summary is pretty pointless.  On the other hand, I'm committed to 
composing something for the Snape FAQ before then, so I'll have the 
basis of it anyway. The same is true for Hermione, for example (Penny 
is doing both). 

As we begin dealing with major characters, we may find there is 
actually *less* discussion after the summaries, because it is not so 
easy to post a single message on "Harry Potter" or "Lord Voldemort" 
unless some new ideas have been thrown up.   

If we decide to continue with this idea, I don't mind chasing the 
volunteers and dazzling them with my headlights if they don't come up 
with the goods.  However, I suspect that some of them have already 
apparated out of here...

Neil





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov 15 18:37:45 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:37:45 -0000
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEJOCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8uul5p+oq6f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5799

canon Draco vs. fanfic Draco
not the same character at all

This is an interesting point. It's true not only of Draco but of any 
character, setting, etc. That's why I do not read any facfic at all--
I can't afford any of the fan transfigurations to get into the 
Lexicon or it loses its credibility. When I write about Draco, I have 
to be sure that all the information I put down is just from the books.

But the same concern could be noted about our discussions here. We 
have delved much deeper into the subtext of the books than I believe 
even JKR herself has. I see that in the offhand way she announced 
Lily's maiden name. I was convincing myself that the fact that she 
hadn't mentioned it meant there was some deep dark secret. Nope. 
That's very likely the case too with the whole wand order thing. It 
probably WAS a mistake; we're all creating something huge and 
mystical out of nothing at all (although I'm clinging to my theories 
and ideas until she SAYS otherwise!). I see it too in her statement 
about Hagrid being in Gryffindor. I believe that she just put ALL 
the "good guys" in Gryffindor and never gave it another thought. We 
analyze their characters and make incredibly well-founded predictions 
only to find out that she's done no such thing. How many students? 
About a thousand, she says blithely. Even though I can PROVE to her 
that she's wrong ;)

Okay, now how arrogant is THAT??  :)

Now don't misunderstand. I am not saying we're doing something wrong, 
not at all! I LOVE all this analysis and wondering and speculating. 
But I'm starting to think that the simplest explanations are pretty 
much true with the Potter books. There are simple editorial mistakes 
where we see deep dark mysteries. The characters are a lot less 
deeply thought out than we think. The "missing 24 hours" is probably 
just an error in her planning out of the events for book 1. Neville's 
grandmother will turn out to be just that, Neville's grandmother, 
even though JKR hasn't mentioned her name. Crookshanks will turn out 
to be just a very smart cat. And that's okay, I guess.

But when the series is done and all the mysteries solved and all the 
mistakes acknowledged and all our speculation over, I for one will 
miss it so much. It's such a fun time, hashing this stuff out with 
you guys. 

I wish JKR would drop by and join us. I'll bet we could teach HER a 
thing or two!

Fondly to all
Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
(which BTW just got listed on Yahoo and the hit counts are very 
exciting!)






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Nov 15 19:18:24 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:18:24 -0000
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
In-Reply-To: <8uul5p+oq6f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uuni0+10519@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5800

"Steve Vander Ark" wrote:

<<<I can't afford any of the fan transfigurations to get into the 
 Lexicon or it loses its credibility. When I write about Draco, I 
have to be sure that all the information I put down is just from the 
books.
 
But the same concern could be noted about our discussions here. We 
have delved much deeper into the subtext of the books than I believe 
even JKR herself has.>>>

You make some really good points, Steve.  I was just looking at 
Sister Mary Lunatic's message and thinking much the same thing as 
you. I'm glad you're staying pure, BTW: your Lexicon is a 
brilliant resource...

I have enjoyed some fanfic and it seems to be an inevitable part of 
the 'cult fan' experience.  I would agree though that it's easy to 
confuse fanfic facts with fic facts.  Harry and his year are still 
barely into adolescence and HP fans are already imagining our hero's 
antics as a strapping adult and writing feverishly about 
the "Marauder" years.  I suspect that JK Rowling has written less 
than 0.001% of the Harry Potter fiction now in existence.    

Writing fanfic in the middle of a series of books must be 
disheartening at times, because the author can so easily throw a 
spanner in your work.  She has the power to kill off your lead 
character in the opening pages of her next book or contradict the 
premise of your masterpiece with a single comment in an interview.  
Also, there's the argument that the best fanfic writers really ought 
to be writing their own stories and becoming famous millionaires in 
their own right, countered by the argument that some truly stunning 
fanfic writers might never have put fingers to keyboard ('pen to 
paper' is so pass?) if it hadn't been for Harry Potter.

When it comes to the deep discussions we have here, the causation is 
the same really.  We *need* some sort of outlet for our enthusiasm.  
If we can't write fanfic, we design a Harry Potter website, or 
collect the books in every known language, or lust after over-priced 
pillowcases or trinkets, or compose comic songs, or just empty out 
our spinning thoughts into the Pensieve we call the HP4GU message 
board.  

Some of us are more obsessed than others, but it is a form of 
addiction...

But, hey, it's fun, isn't it?

Neil

   

  




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov 15 20:48:01 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:48:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Centaurs
Message-ID: <20001115204801.27065.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5801

The syllable "Run-, -run" in ancient Norse held the
meaning "secret, hidden knowledge".  I am uncertain
whether Ronan is of Norse origin, though.

--- eliasberg at ioc.net skrev: > Ronan may make
reference to a Samuri that has no
> lord to 
> serve, altough that is spelled Ronin. 
> Just a thought,
> Dave
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From karob_7 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 15 20:50:00 2000
From: karob_7 at yahoo.com (Karin )
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:50:00 -0000
Subject: Centaurs
In-Reply-To: <20001115204801.27065.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8uusto+m767@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5802

Christian Stub? wrote:
> The syllable "Run-, -run" in ancient Norse held the
> meaning "secret, hidden knowledge".  I am uncertain
> whether Ronan is of Norse origin, though.

On the Yahoo baby name finder, it says that Ronan is of Celtic/Irish 
origin and means "oath" or "small seal"

Karin




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 15 21:08:57 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 267
Message-ID: <20001115210857.4163.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5803

> 
> A friend of mine was watching The Lion King for the millionth time the other 
> day with her younger siblings, but Monday morning came up to me and said, "Oh 
> my god, isn't scar so much like Snape? The greasy hair and everything!" The 
> greasy hair, the sneakiness of going about with 'the other kind', then 
> classic kind of villain. But he's not the bad guy (or not THE bad guy, but 
> still a bad guy) though. 
> Mana

Yes, Snape does look like Scar from The Lion King (and couldn't you imagine Snape
with the voice of Jermey Irons?). I also pictured Snape as old and insane Salieri
(F. Murrey Abraham) from the movie "Amadeus."

From,

Anake


=====
=========
ICQ: 37150285 | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)

"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From terzarima at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 15 21:12:55 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:12:55 -0500
Subject: Digest Number 267
Message-ID: <3A12FC57.6F4ED5BF@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5804

>>>>>>Yes, Snape does look like Scar from The Lion King (and couldn't
you imagine Snape with the voice of Jermey Irons?). I also
              pictured Snape as old and insane Salieri (F. Murrey
Abraham) from the movie "Amadeus."

              From,

              Anake


Wow! F. Murray Abraham in his role as Salieri was EXACTLY who I pictured
for Snape!!!

I am glad I am not the only one.....

Suzanne





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Nov 15 21:21:29 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 15 Nov 2000 13:21:29 -0800
Subject: Interesting story VERT OT (was:Digest Number 267)
Message-ID: <20001115212129.28229.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5805

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001115/d31752c3/attachment.ksh>

From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 15 21:23:14 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:23:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Harry Potters in London Zoo
Message-ID: <20001115212314.6489.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5806

Sorry if anyone has heard or gotten news about this:

Harry Potters About In London Zoo


Stars of the new Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) movie have been
getting to grips with some of the world's deadliest creatures at London Zoo. Cast
and crew of the eagerly awaited adventure film are shooting scenes on location in
the famous zoo's Lizard House. The best-selling J.K. Rowling children's books
feature dragons and other mythical beings - and producers were eager to use real
life animals to double for the winged serpents. An insider reveals, "Harry Potter
is going to be the biggest movie of next year and they don't want to overdo it with
special effects and computer generated imagery. "You can bet that you will see some
of the snakes and lizards from London Zoo used cleverly in the finished film next
November. A Komodo dragon would be a perfect stand-in for the real thing!" The big
screen adaptation of Harry Potter is set to star Alan Rickman, John Cleese and
Robbie Coltrane. London Zoo is the second major location to be used by Warner
Brothers for the Harry Potter film. Gloucester Cathedral doubles for the mythical
Hogwarts magic school depicted in the books. 

This was from IMDB.com.
From,

Anake



=====
=========
ICQ: 37150285 | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)

"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 15 22:31:22 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:31:22 -0000
Subject: Interesting story VERT OT (was:Digest Number 267)
In-Reply-To: <20001115212129.28229.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8uv2rq+6sur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5807

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> One afternoon a few years ago in Prospect Park here in Brooklyn, F. 
Murray Abraham ran into me while he was on his bicycle.  Knocked me 
right on my keester.  He saw what he did, because he looked back at 
me over his shoulder as he rode away.  Never asked if I was okay (I 
was), and didn't apologize.  Yeah, I could see him as Snape.

What a creep!  Does he still live on Eastern Pkwy, even with all his 
fame?

And also off-topic but I can not figure it out and it is bugging me 
-- why was this thread originally called Digest Number 267?  #267 of 
what?

--Joywitch




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov 15 22:30:29 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:30:29 -0600
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions (Please Read)
References: <8uuia0+nt43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A130E85.A94A3458@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5808

Hi --

Joywitch wrote:

> OK, for once I volunteer to be useful.  As might be expected of
> someone who lives in a gingerbread house and boils children in her
> cauldron, I am pretty good at nagging.  I volunteer to send out email
> reminders each week to the person whos turn it is to do the summary,
> and then remail them on Tuesday and threaten to turn them into toads,
> and then use the Imperius Curse if they havent completed their
> summaries by Friday.  Assuming, of course, that we continue to do the
> summaries.

Thanks Joywitch!  Your methods of harassing the members into posting
sounds perfect!  <g>  You can team up with Flying Ford Anglia's blazing
headlights if you wish.  You may want to contact Melanie & see if you
can figure out if the inability to access the weekly assignments chart
was a temporary glitch.

The poll seems to be currently running in favor of continuing the
summaries . . . and as long as I don't have to be the person who reminds
people every week, that's great by me.

Thanks again --

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov 15 22:38:57 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:38:57 -0600
Subject: The "Stuff-it" lawsuit, more legal input
References: <3A129BDA.A19EDC3F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A131081.EB529E87@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5809

Hi --

Suzanne Burns wrote:

> 1.)  First of all I want to obtain the texts and put together a
> document
> in which I really examine Stouffer's claims-- according to this
> gentleman, she is massively stretching things to claim that there is
> ANY
> similarity at all. Legally how much can I quote from the text without
> running afoul of "fair use"?

I will defer to Heidi (our resident intellectual property lawyer) on
that one.

> 2.)  What do our legal experts here on HP for Grownups think about
> what
> Jon says above about "abandonment"? I was wondering about this earlier
>
> because all the records I found indicated that Stouffer NEVER had a
> trademark at all, and right now only has a trademark pending.

I've always thought she had a rather weak trademark argument since she
didn't file any trademarks until Feb 2000.  The books were "published"
in the 1980s, weren't they?  So, she waited 15 years before deciding to
assert trademark rights?  It just "sounds" fishy.  But, I'm not an IP
lawyer, and Heidi may have an entirely new twist on that one.  The
abandonment claims sound strong to me.

Glad you're on the case Suzanne!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From magicalhp at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 15 23:38:39 2000
From: magicalhp at yahoo.com (magicalhp at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:38:39 -0000
Subject: Satirical HP Cover
Message-ID: <8uv6pv+a1ot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5810

Hey all, :)

A number of months ago I saw a webpage that had a satirical picture
of 
the cover of "Sorcerer's Stone" (I think) on it. The page was set up
to 
look like an actual product page from amazon.com

Does anyone know where this page is? I hope I've described it 
correctly...it's been a while since I've seen it.

Cheers,

Rachel
http://www.magicalharrypotter.com






From atelecky at mit.edu  Thu Nov 16 00:47:56 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:47:56 -0000
Subject: Memory charms, Imperius, Harry and Neville
In-Reply-To: <3A12ABAD.DF591E8A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8uvars+f7ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5811

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> I think you're reaching a bit, especially about his mother doing it, 
because
> by all accounts Voldemort took them totally by surprise. I really 
doubt, in
> the fear and confusion, that the possibility of Harry having a bad 
memory of
> the event was Lily's paramount concern.
> 
> --Amanda

Actually, I wasn't thinking of Harry's having been given a memory 
charm to prevent some sort of later in life emotional trauma from 
Voldemort's attack on his parents--I entirely agree that that's a 
pretty ridiculous idea. And ordinarily I would think that a child only 
a year old would hardly need to be made to forget something he saw at 
that age, since he would be unlikely to understand it or remember it. 
At least I personally remember nothing from when I was a year old. 
However, Harry does still have dreams about that night, as we see in 
PS/SS, whether or not that is reasonable. But seeing how Harry's 
whereabouts for a full twenty four hours are still unknown, and the 
exact circumstances of his parents' deaths are still foggy, it might 
well be that something of substance happened during that time that he 
needed to be made to forget. At any rate, I admit its a stretch. And 
the mention of this having been the third time may also be an error in 
the printing.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Nov 16 01:11:57 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:11:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Satirical HP Cover
In-Reply-To: <8uv6pv+a1ot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEKNCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5812

I think the one you want is from The National Lampoon.  I just went to the
address and it appears the spoof isn't there anymore, but I saved it as a
PDF file in July.  I've just uploaded it to the Club Humor section of the
Files :

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Club+Humour/

It's called "Harry Potter and the Manual of the Black Arts"

You'll need Adobe Acrobat reader to view it.



-----Original Message-----
From: magicalhp at yahoo.com [mailto:magicalhp at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 4:39 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Satirical HP Cover


Hey all, :)

A number of months ago I saw a webpage that had a satirical picture
of
the cover of "Sorcerer's Stone" (I think) on it. The page was set up
to
look like an actual product page from amazon.com

Does anyone know where this page is? I hope I've described it
correctly...it's been a while since I've seen it.

Cheers,

Rachel
http://www.magicalharrypotter.com





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov 16 01:18:59 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:18:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "Stuff-it" lawsuit, more legal input
References: <3A129BDA.A19EDC3F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3A133603.8C996D42@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5813



Suzanne Burns wrote:

> I have been following up on my quest to dig up every single absurdity
> that exists (the list is endless) in Stouffer's claims against Rowling.
> I found a lawyer/writer who keeps a journal on the web, and who
> apparently actually managed to get his hands on Stouffer's text. He
> published a short rant about what an opportunistic hag she is (albiet he
> used more legally acceptable language than I am), and confirmed what is
> pretty much obvious to us all, that there is no similarity.
>

What's the link? I would love to see this!

> "The U of I Education Library is where I found them--there's a special
> kids' books collection. They're long out of print, which just makes the
> problem that much worse. As a matter of trademark law, it's arguable
> that
> (even if she had a case at all) she abandoned the mark by not taking
> action the instant the book hit the shores here--she waited for a movie
> deal to be announced. There's another abandonment argument in the
> failure
> to continue exploitation since the books went out of print several years
> back.

As a matter of law, abandonment of a trademark can be presumed by a court if
you have not used the mark for three consecutive years (i.e. 36 months) and
don't have a good reason to have done so. She who must not be named CLAIMS
that she has a good reason - purportedly, there werebusiness problems with
her company/the licensing company who she'd given the rights to, and they
weren't able to secure any deals. I have litigated over the issue of
abandonment before, and there is caselaw to support her position in
MINNESOTA but I have never seen any in New York (although something could've
been reported in the past 18 months that I don't know about). Nonuse of a
mark for 36 months, which she more or less has admitted to, and the ability
to show NO good reason for such nonuse make what's called a prima fascie
case of abandonment, which means the court would presume that she had
abandoned the mark - and an abandoned trademark is not a trademark at all.
Trademarks, as I've said before, indicate the source of a good or service.
If there are no goods or services being sold or provided under a mark, there
is no trademark usage, and thus nothing to protect. Voila - no trademark
ownership, and no trademark infringement. You can't infringe on something
that doesn't exist!

> Two things:
>
> 1.)  First of all I want to obtain the texts and put together a document
> in which I really examine Stouffer's claims-- according to this
> gentleman, she is massively stretching things to claim that there is ANY
> similarity at all. Legally how much can I quote from the text without
> running afoul of "fair use"?

Depends on where you're doing it. None of this is legal advice, mind you,
but if you are quoting from something for education purposes, or for
reporting on it, and NOT for commercial purposes (i.e. you don't want to
create your own version of The Legend of RAH and the Muggles) then you can
use slightly more of a work, but still not so much of the work that you're
reducing the market for the work you are copying. I can't give you a
definite number of words or paragraphs, though. But if you want to put
together the document, and Penny's interested, and I can vette it, maybe we
can incorporate it into the FAQ.

>
> 2.)  What do our legal experts here on HP for Grownups think about what
> Jon says above about "abandonment"? I was wondering about this earlier
> because all the records I found indicated that Stouffer NEVER had a
> trademark at all, and right now only has a trademark pending.

Correct. She has a trademark pending, and I have the applications AND the
office action, which means the trademark office will NOT register it until
she comes up with some explanation as to why her mark isn't likely to be
confused with some prior registrations for marks containing the term MUGGLE,
including one for dolls and one for a piano bar.





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 02:43:27 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:43:27 -0000
Subject: Quidditch (the card game)
Message-ID: <8uvhkf+3oog@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5814

Hi everyone, 
I've been lurking for the past few days (had a busy weekend).  I was 
at the mall on Saturday and I got the Qudditch card game. I've not 
yet taken out the decks of cards but I'm considering taking it 
back...why you ask?  Well I read the instructions and I 
was rather confused.  Does anybody have the game, and if so is it 
easy to play or not?  

The game is only for two people and one is Slytherin and one is 
Gryffindor.  It has curse cards and seeker cards and chaser cards and 
such. There are also pitch cards and more...it seems rather 
complicated to me but I might keep it if someone will step up and 
recommend it.  

Scott
(who has never been very good at sport, even on paper.)




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov 16 03:07:59 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 03:07:59 -0000
Subject: New Graphics eGroup - Navigation
Message-ID: <8uvj2f+ol6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5815

There is a new file called README.HTML posted in our Files area.  It 
contains a quick link to the new eGroup that was set up to offload 
our excess graphics files.  Give it a try and let me know what you 
think.

-Jim Flanagan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 16 03:20:28 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:20:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO
References: <8uuf91+350q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002301c04f7c$2c2c1780$92c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5816


----- Original Message -----
From: <eggplant88 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 11:57 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A TRANSCRIPT FROM WIZARD RADIO


> ==================
> advertisement
> [The sounds of The Quidditch world cup can be heard in the background]
>
My Subjunctive
> Spyscope can show me what the present would be like if things were
> different, I know what the game would have been like if it had been
> raining, or snowing, or what would have happened if Krum were playing
> Quidditch in a wedding dress.

The Contrafactus dialogue of Douglas Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach has
the characters (The Tortoise, Achilles, Crab and Sloth) watching a football
game on a channel that offers a Subjunctive instant replay ("How would that
last play have looked if the game had been baseball instead of football?"

    - CMC




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Thu Nov 16 03:26:05 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 16 Nov 2000 03:26:05 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974345165.50828@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5817


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Song Parodies/When I was a lad still in Hogwarts School.doc 
  Uploaded by : coriolan at worldnet.att.net 
  Description : Voldemort's Song (When I Was a Lad) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Song+Parodies/When+I+was+a+lad+still+in+Hogwarts+School%2Edoc 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

coriolan at worldnet.att.net
 






From lrcjestes at msn.com  Thu Nov 16 04:09:57 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:09:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
References: <8uuni0+10519@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d101c04f83$15893ec0$03230f3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5818


----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying Ford Anglia" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>

You, Steve, and SML made some really good points in your posts and I just
wanted to comment on a few of them...

>confuse fanfic facts with fic facts.

Say that 3 times fast...couldn't resist...hehehehehehehe

>Harry and his year are still
>barely into adolescence and HP fans are already imagining our hero's
>antics as a strapping adult and writing feverishly about
>the "Marauder" years.  I suspect that JK Rowling has written less
>than 0.001% of the Harry Potter fiction now in existence.

You know there are over 10,000 HP fanfic stories posted on ff.net!!!!  It
boggles the mind!


>Writing fanfic in the middle of a series of books must be
>disheartening at times, because the author can so easily throw a
>spanner in your work.  She has the power to kill off your lead
>character in the opening pages of her next book or contradict the
>premise of your masterpiece with a single comment in an interview.

Yeah, Penny and I were sweating out GoF for fear of Sirius being killed off.
Now he only has to make it through 3 more books.  But then we live in an
alternate universe so even if he is killed,  I'll still fantasize about him!
As I said last night..I'm finding him in other books as well now so who
needs JKR?    :--)

>Also, there's the argument that the best fanfic writers really ought
>to be writing their own stories and becoming famous millionaires in
>their own right, countered by the argument that some truly stunning
>fanfic writers might never have put fingers to keyboard ('pen to
>paper' is so pass) if it hadn't been for Harry Potter.

I know I would not have.  Fanfic has given me enough constraints to try
writing without that feeling of ...good lord where do I start...that an
original story has.  I amy try an original story someday...maybe I'll name
him Sean or Jonathan....hehehehehehe


>When it comes to the deep discussions we have here, the causation is
>the same really.  We *need* some sort of outlet for our enthusiasm.
>If we can't write fanfic, we design a Harry Potter website, or
>collect the books in every known language, or lust after over-priced
>pillowcases or trinkets, or compose comic songs, or just empty out
>our spinning thoughts into the Pensieve we call the HP4GU message
>board.

Man that was eloquently put...I like the allusion to the Pensieve!

>Some of us are more obsessed than others, but it is a form of
>addiction...

But I can stop anytime...right?

>But, hey, it's fun, isn't it?

Its preserved my mental health for 8 months now...its a hobby, like
knitting...only you get ideas instead of sweaters in the end.

I know this is kind of a long...me too post, but it was so well said I
couldn't resist...plus our daily message totals were kind of low ...
hehehehehee

later
carole






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 15 06:23:38 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:23:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close  ups)  (re-sent)
References: <20001114133228.13611.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A120531.D00BFA7A@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <014f01c04ecc$98586a40$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5819

The pictures of the show were wonderful!  Thanks for posting them.  I may be
a bit behind, mentally, but which Dayton were they at?

Aside comment.  No idea how I did it, but in fooling with my desktop themes,
I've ended up with the most unusual sound when new OE mail comes in--it's
the sound of wings fluttering, like many many owls!  Very kewl! :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close
ups) (re-sent)


> voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 13 November 2000, Peg Kerr wrote:
> >
> > > P.S.: I just went and tried to tinker with the Draco Malfoy pictures
that I have, thinking, well, maybe it's not so bad--maybe I could post
it--but it's hopeless.  I did go back to the show specifically to try to get
good picture of Draco in particular, since the fanfiction has spawned so
many Draco fans.  Maybe there is something to your theory that there's
something weird going on.
> >
> > I have a thought about this.  Has Draco been cast yet - that we know of?
I think it's possible that the answer is yes, it's someone pretty big in the
movie industry, and all of the "shadow" figures are a big PR ploy to keep
the character of Draco in the dark - so to speak.  Of course, this is all
just conjecture on my part.
>
> It's supposed to be Tom Felton--there's a picture of him in the files
> section  Go to:
>
>
http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Cast+Photos/+Confirmed+Cast+Membe
rs/feltontom1.jpg
>
> Peg
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Nov 16 02:33:09 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:33:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
Message-ID: <200011160458.eAG4wbU20405@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 5820

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at egroups.com =====
>Someone was wondering why there are no Draco products for sale to Harry
>Potter fans.  I think the reason is that in the canon, Draco Malfoy is a
>vile little Nazi with no apparent redeeming qualities.  None of the
>marketing people would believe that the Draco of the first four HP books
>would have fans, or want to be identified with him in any way.


Yet they market Voldemort like he's cool?




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 05:00:44 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:00:44 -0000
Subject: Invisibility cloak....
In-Reply-To: <8usd3d+a5r5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uvpls+3t33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5821

-
> So I guess Hagrid had it.  Maybe he traded it for Fluffy or 
something.
> 
> I also wondered about the size of the bike - at one point it was 
> described I think as being a giant motorcycle, in which case how 
did 
> Sirius ride it?  And if it wasn't giant sized, how did Hagrid ride 
it?
> Just wondered
> kimberly

It was magic of course -- and adjusted in size to the person riding 
it...




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Nov 16 05:04:05 2000
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (Cassandra Claire)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:04:05 -0000
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
In-Reply-To: <200011160458.eAG4wbU20405@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8uvps5+ioar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5822

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan 
<kathleen at c...> wrote:
> >===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at egroups.com =====
> >Someone was wondering why there are no Draco products for sale to 
Harry Potter fans.  I think the reason is that in the canon, Draco 
Malfoy is a vile little Nazi with no apparent redeeming qualities.  
None of the marketing people would believe that the Draco of the 
first four HP books would have fans, or want to be identified with 
him in any way.
> 
> 
> Yet they market Voldemort like he's cool?

------
Actually, that's a really good point. And Voldemort (IMHO) is one of 
the most boring villains ever. Okay, I know it's just me, but every 
time he makes an appearance, and is not actually hacking off one of 
Harry's limbs at the time, I fall asleep. As villains go, he's 
completely unseductive. Why they make t-shirts of him is a mystery.

cassie




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 16 05:10:54 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:10:54 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Protections
In-Reply-To: <8ut5p2+9l4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8uvq8u+10qd5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5823

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> In more than one of the books, it discusses Dumbledore's protection
> of Harry and of Hogwarts.
> 
> In the Goblet of Fire, Voldemort states that he could not touch
> Harry while Harry was under Dumbledore's protections.
> 
> It is stated that while Voldemort was in power, Hogwarts was
> one of the few safe places.
> 
> However, is clear that Dumbledore cannot protect Harry when he
> is not at Hogwarts.
> 
> Does anyone have ideas about how this works? Are Dumbledore's
> protective abilities tied up with the magic of Hogwarts (similar to 
> Charles  DeLint's Moonheart?)
> 
> Susan



     I think that the way Dumbledore protects Harry, during the 
summer outside of Hogwarts is by enchanting the Dursley's home.  In 
Book 4 (Gof), I seem to recall Dumbledore saying something about how 
he couldn't stay at the Weasley's (but i cant remember if he said not 
right then, but later on during the summer he'd be able to, or if not 
at all).  

     I think that Hogwarts is somehow enchanted against Voldemort as 
well. And that the way Dumbledore protects Harry is kind-of with his 
presence...unless he is at the Dursleys.






From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 16 05:18:20 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:18:20 -0000
Subject: Hedwig/Dumbledore Theory
Message-ID: <8uvqms+jv77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5824

     Just stumbled upon a theory. . . i think that Hedwig could be 
some extension of Dumbledore.  Think about it,  Hagrid gave Hedwig to 
Harry as a present. So, Harry didn't choose her.  And, in PS/SS, when 
Hedwig was sent to London to get Dumbledore, Dumbledore said, "We 
must have crossed midair."

    Maybe, Hedwig is a transfiguration of Dumbledore...that is how 
he's able to protect Harry.

I've just reread Book 1, maybe I'll find some other stuff on this.

Just thinking,
Odile




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 05:18:25 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:18:25 -0000
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions (Please Read)/calendar
In-Reply-To: <3A130E85.A94A3458@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <8uvqn1+ni77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5825

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> > OK, for once I volunteer to be useful.  As might be expected of
> > someone who lives in a gingerbread house and boils children in her
> > cauldron, I am pretty good at nagging.  I volunteer to send out 
email
> > reminders each week to the person whos turn it is to do the 
summary,
> > and then remail them on Tuesday and threaten to turn them into 
toads,
> > and then use the Imperius Curse if they havent completed their
> > summaries by Friday.  Assuming, of course, that we continue to do 
the
> > summaries.
> 
> Thanks Joywitch!  Your methods of harassing the members into posting
> sounds perfect!  <g>  You can team up with Flying Ford Anglia's 
blazing
> headlights if you wish.  You may want to contact Melanie & see if 
you
> can figure out if the inability to access the weekly assignments 
chart
> was a temporary glitch.
> 
> The poll seems to be currently running in favor of continuing the
> summaries . . . and as long as I don't have to be the person who 
reminds
> people every week, that's great by me.
> 
> Thanks again --
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
I suppose the calendar feature can't be used to remind people...




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 16 05:29:28 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:29:28 -0000
Subject: Hedwig/Dumbledore Theory
Message-ID: <8uvrbo+pcp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5826

     Just stumbled upon a theory. . . i think that Hedwig could be 
some extension of Dumbledore.  Think about it,  Hagrid gave Hedwig to 
Harry as a present. So, Harry didn't choose her.  And, in PS/SS, when 
Hedwig was sent to London to get Dumbledore, Dumbledore said, "We 
must have crossed midair."

    Maybe, Hedwig is a transfiguration of Dumbledore...that is how 
he's able to protect Harry.

Just thinking,
Odile




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 16 05:29:27 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:29:27 -0000
Subject: Hedwig/Dumbledore Theory
Message-ID: <8uvrbn+96hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5827

     Just stumbled upon a theory. . . i think that Hedwig could be 
some extension of Dumbledore.  Think about it,  Hagrid gave Hedwig to 
Harry as a present. So, Harry didn't choose her.  And, in PS/SS, when 
Hedwig was sent to London to get Dumbledore, Dumbledore said, "We 
must have crossed midair."

    Maybe, Hedwig is a transfiguration of Dumbledore...that is how 
he's able to protect Harry.

Just thinking,
Odile




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Nov 16 10:24:12 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:24:12 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter books are destroying the planet!!! (say scientists)
Message-ID: <8v0ckc+qd7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5828

Morning all

I've discovered a possible cause for all the freaky weather
we've been having in the UK recently.  No, it's not the hole
in the ozone layer, it's "Harry Potter and The Goblet of
Fire".  It's so obvious when you think about it.  

Read for yourself.  Here's the story, as reported by New
Scientist magazine:-

****

According to a paper published this October in IEEE Spectrum magazine 
entitled "Harry Potter and the health of the environment", more than 
a quarter of a million copies of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire 
were delivered by Amazon.com in the US last year, setting a record 
for online orders. The 400g of packaging used to encase each of those 
books went straight to landfill. And that, say authors Scott 
Matthews, Chris Hendrickson and Lester Lave, is cause for alarm for 
those worried about the environmental impact of e-commerce - not to 
mention all the carbon dioxide emitted by planes and trucks that 
deliver the goods. 

While online ordering does mean that Mom doesn't have to drive a gas-
guzzling car to the mall to get her kid (or herself) a copy of the 
novel, the overall impact is unknown and quite possibly negative. The 
paper concludes: "While Harry Potter cannot be branded as the primary 
contributor to global climate change, the net effect of the current e-
commerce systems is unclear." 

[Source: New Scientist, 18th November 2000]

It's a good job the Harry Potter series is ending with Book 7, 
otherwise JK Rowling could be held responsible for the destruction of 
planet earth


Neil





From lrcjestes at msn.com  Thu Nov 16 11:56:15 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 06:56:15 -0500
Subject: Few tidbits from JKR
Message-ID: <002f01c04fc4$3d3a7740$b7ac153f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5829

These are just a few tidbits I had not heard before from an interview
published in the Philadelphia Inquirer on November 12.  My mom sent me the
clipping so I don't have an on-line link.  It was a rather short article and
the only things in it that were new to me are as follows:

"The Durseleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with them that
people will not expect."

and

Ginny Weasley "will play more of a role in Book 5."

so maybe we get some character development for the poor girl.  Hopefully it
will jive with the character given her in some of the better fanfics out
there.  :-)

carole






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Thu Nov 16 12:24:08 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 16 Nov 2000 12:24:08 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <974377448.28800@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5830


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Merchandise/cards.jpg 
  Uploaded by : heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  Description : The Draco/Cravve/Goyle cards from the Mystery @ Hogwarts Game 

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Regards,

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu
 






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov 16 12:27:46 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:27:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
References: <8utidn+d4v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A13D2C2.C448D529@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5831



Cassandra Claire wrote:

>
> *blinks* I don't think anyone was seriously wondering that, were
> they? I mean, I thought we were joking.

No, I actually admit to nonsarcastically wondering why they bothered to make
cards for Draco and Crabbe, with sillhouettes but couldn't figure out actual
drawings for either boy - but they did for Goyle. It really doesn't make
sense - but I do agree that it makes sense not to have any Draco-pens or
Draco-snowglobes, or bookends like there are for Ron & Hermione - although
if they do another "Quidditch game"  based on book 2, they'll have to have
him in there somehow - how can you have a big quidditch scene from book 2
without the slytherin seeker?

> Ah, well. I think the source
> of Draco's enormous popularity in fanfic is that he's blond, and
> that's about it. Although much alternate reading of the canon
> (complete with textual examples) trying to prove the thesis that he's
> actually a conflicted character, can be found over on the hpslash
> egroup. If one were interested.

>From working on my Malfoy FAQ, I've gone back ^ read basically every scene
from teh books that he's in, and there actually is support for the idea that
JKR could make him into someone who steps back from completely becoming a
homicidal maniac, which would be what he more or less would have to turn
into if he goes the Death Eater route. I'll flip through it later & try to
find some examples to post here if anyone is interested...





From nodigio at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 13:00:01 2000
From: nodigio at aol.com (nodigio at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:00:01 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch (the card game)
Message-ID: <17.d9377fc.27453451@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5832

In a message dated 11/15/2000 8:45:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
harry_potter00 at yahoo.com writes:


> .  Does anybody have the game, and if so is it 
> easy to play or not?  
> 
> 

I do.  They wrote the instructions just to confuse people.  It's really a 
modified form of 'War", if you've ever played that game.  Once you figure it 
out, it's quite simple.

Each player gets 5 cards and has to keep 5 cards in their hand, by drawing 
from their OWN stack (which is odd, but there ya go).  There are 3 piles to 
start the game (and it really plays better with 3 people than with the 
recommended 2):  Gryffindor, Slytherin, and the Pitch pile.  Slytherin ALWAYS 
starts the game (not fair, I think!).  The person whose birthday is closest 
to Harry Potter's gets the first Pitch (although I prefer to play with a 
separate person as Pitch).  A Pitch card is turned over - that gives the ball 
in play.  Slytherin then plays - face down - the card they want to play 
(chaser or or beater or keeper or spell, usually), then Gryffindor plays a 
card.  They both turn the cards over at the same time and the highest 
numbered card wins the set. If one plays a keeper and the keeper's card 
number is highest, then the round continues until someone scores the goal - 
which where the Pitch helps decide and keep track of what's happening - 
especially if more than one ball is in play, because players can play to all 
the balls in the air during their turn). If they are equal, they play again.  
At the end of the round, they draw cards to get back up to 5 in hand.  The 
cards determine what gets done, and the first few times, it can get slow and 
complicated.  The Pitcher has the responsibility of acting as referee, 
determining the order in which the cards are played, and who wins a round, 
and keeping track of the number of balls in play.  You HAVE to play on a 
Quaffle, but you can ignore the Bludgers for a while.  Just as the Golden 
Snitch card can be ignored if no one has a seeker in hand.

Did that help any?

Nodigio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From magicalhp at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 13:00:22 2000
From: magicalhp at yahoo.com (magicalhp at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:00:22 -0000
Subject: Satirical HP Cover
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEKNCHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8v0lp6+f8g5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5833

ROFL!! That's it! Thanks!!





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Nov 16 14:03:55 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 16 Nov 2000 06:03:55 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter books are destroying the planet!!! (say scientists)
Message-ID: <20001116140355.16898.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5834

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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 12:52:30 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:52:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
Message-ID: <20001116125230.19961.qmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5835


--- heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
> From working on my Malfoy FAQ, I've gone back ^ read
> basically every scene
> from teh books that he's in, and there actually is
> support for the idea that
> JKR could make him into someone who steps back from
> completely becoming a
> homicidal maniac, which would be what he more or
> less would have to turn
> into if he goes the Death Eater route. I'll flip
> through it later & try to
> find some examples to post here if anyone is
> interested...
> 
I'm very much interested and look forward to seeing
the examples.

Sheryll (who is currently suffering withdrawal caused
by lending out all 4 books)

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Nov 16 14:47:12 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 16 Nov 2000 06:47:12 -0800
Subject: Withdrawal [was:Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco]
Message-ID: <20001116144712.17749.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5836

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From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov 16 15:07:02 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:07:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Withdrawal [was:Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco]
References: <20001116144712.17749.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3A13F815.9F4D6A7B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5837

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> See, *this* is where being an obsessive collector is a GOOD thing!  You need to get more copies of each book.  MORE, I say, MORE!

Now, now, we wouldn't want to further contribute to destroying the earth, would we?

--Amanda, who fears they *weren't* tongue-in-cheek--where's the Journal of Irreproducible Results when you need them? [reminded me of that old article
where the cumulative weight of National Geographics was causing some tectonic problems or something...]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 16 15:36:48 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:36:48 -0000
Subject: Wand order
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGJCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5838

Neil wrote: "I'm still amazed by this.  I wonder if Bloomsbury have made a
similar amendment in later editions?  If they don't change it, it will
remain as an error, since the Scholastic action suggests that JKR has no
intention of writing something later to justify the mistake.  Either that or
Scholastic edited the passage without JKR's knowledge and have seriously
messed up her continuity... :) This doesn't seem very likely."

Today I was in a bookshop and due to the rather long queue ended up next to
a stack of GoF's. I decided I would have a quick peak and was amazed to find
that the passage has also changed in the UK edition.  In a 14th printing the
passage had Lily then James emerging from the wand and seemed to be the same
as the passage posted here last week. The passage was still unchanged as of
the 12th printing. So it seems that Bloomsbury has recently changed the
passage. Both of these where printed by the St Ives printers.


Neil wrote: "I'm fairly certain Bloomsbury still haven't addressed the
ancestor/descendent error in CoS (no one has reported a Bloomsbury CoS with
'descendent' have they?), so perhaps they will leave this 'error' too."

Which bring me to this point. I have still to find any Bloomsbury printed
edition of the book in which this has been changed.

<rant>
And at this point imagine a very long rant against fire alarms going off at
3:30 am. I am just too worn out to write it!
</rant>

Simon




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Nov 16 17:01:25 2000
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (Cassandra Claire)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:01:25 -0000
Subject: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
In-Reply-To: <3A13D2C2.C448D529@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8v13t5+l1ko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5839

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> From working on my Malfoy FAQ, I've gone back ^ read basically 
every scene from the books that he's in, and there actually is 
support for the idea that JKR could make him into someone who steps 
back from completely becoming a homicidal maniac, which would be what 
he more or less would have to turn into if he goes the Death Eater 
route. I'll flip through it later & try to find some examples to post 
here if anyone is interested...

---------------------------------------

*waves at Heidi* Color me interested as well. Like I said, I've read 
some of the 're-interpretations' of various Draco scenes from the 
text (the scene in the Forbidden Forest, the scene with the dementors 
on the train in PoA, the scene at the Quidditch world cup where he 
actually seems to be 'warning' the Invincible Trio) over on the 
hpslash and draconian egroups. They've put a lot of work into it and 
wow, darned if it isn't kind of convincing. So, yes post your 
arguments here I want to see how it all stacks up.
(And Kathleen made a good point. If they make Voldemort t-shirts and 
pens, maybe it wouldn't be so weird to make Malfoy t-shirts and pens. 
I know people who express fondness for his character who have never 
read a stitch of fanfiction in their lives.)

cass




From editor at texas.net  Thu Nov 16 15:11:55 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:11:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
References: <200011160458.eAG4wbU20405@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <3A13F93B.D9E7AB06@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5840

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> Yet they market Voldemort like he's cool?

Marketing people have weird viewpoints. I suspect they have a formula
marketing plan, which doesn't read the books, just is given things like Hero,
one each (1), Villain, one each (1), Hero's friends, ...you get the idea. The
true antagonists in terms of the action in book 1 are Draco, Snape
(perceived), and Quirrell (actual), and I haven't seen too much about any of
them. Also, Draco is slimy but not really powerful and a juvenile human,
which makes him not as interesting as slimy, powerful, creepy supernatural
Voldemort.

--Amanda




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 19:26:29 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:26:29 -0000
Subject: chapter summary EMERGENCY
Message-ID: <8v1cd5+fpis@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5841

The person scheduled to do this weeks chapter and character summary 
-- Jess -- seems to have permanently disapparated.  Is there anyone 
out there with some free time in the next day or two who could whip 
up a summary of Chapter 19 and of Molly Weasley?  Or maybe someone 
could do the chapter summary and someone else could do Molly 
Weasley?  These would have to be done ASAP, posted by Saturday or 
Sunday the latest so that we dont completely mess up the schedule.

I will do the Chapter 19 summary if no one else can, but I dont have 
time to do Molly Weasley as well.  That means that if none of you can 
find time in your busy little muggle schedules for Molly she may have 
to be postponed.  If that happens, dont blame me if she sends you a 
Howler!

--Joywitch




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 16 19:36:17 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:36:17 -0500
Subject: The "Stuff-it" lawsuit, more legal input
Message-ID: <3A143731.B5C75DCD@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5842


>>>>>>>>Heidi wrote:

>>>>>>>>What's the link? I would love to see this!


Suzanne replies:

Thank you Heidi!

http://www.crosswinds.net/~jsavage/journals/j9912.html


>>>>>>>>Heidi wrote:

>>>>>>>>Depends on where you're doing it. None of this is legal advice,
mind you,
>>>>>>>>but if you are quoting from something for education purposes, or
for
>>>>>>>>reporting on it, and NOT for commercial purposes (i.e. you don't
want to
>>>>>>>>create your own version of The Legend of RAH and the Muggles)
then you can
>>>>>>>>use slightly more of a work, but still not so much of the work
that you're
>>>>>>>>reducing the market for the work you are copying. I can't give
you a
>>>>>>>>definite number of words or paragraphs, though. But if you want
to put
>>>>>>>>together the document, and Penny's interested, and I can vette
it, maybe we
>>>>>>>>can incorporate it into the FAQ.

Well I am obviously not out to make money, and I have NO interest in
creating my own Legend of Rah *shudder* I loathe this woman and her
"properties".

I think if we are using her original text to examine the veracity of her
claims, whcih she has been quite public about, we are certainly within
our rights. If she has the right to publically claim that she is being
plagerized, we should have a similar right to shed light on her claims
and offer proof of her absurdity, using her own text.

What I would like to know is how I can do that without actually putting
up the whole text... Hmmmm....

 In any event, I can certainly put something together for the FAQ. Let
me know if I can help you on that!

Suzanne




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 20:35:54 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:35:54 -0000
Subject: chapter summary EMERGENCY update
In-Reply-To: <8v1cd5+fpis@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v1gfa+64n5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5843

Several volunteers have stepped up to the plate, so it looks like we 
will have a Chapter 19 and Molly Weasley summary after all.  However, 
we may need someone to do a Chapter 20 and Crouch summary next week 
if Bonnie doesnt resurface.  Anyone know who she is?  Also, there is 
an opening for week of March 12 -- Chapter 34 and Albus Dumbledore.

--Joywitch




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 16 21:11:49 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:11:49 -0000
Subject: GoF Ch 19
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGNCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5844

This is not as good as I wished it was, but decided it was better to get it
posted reasonably quickly to allow the discussions to start.

Chapter 19: The Hungarian Horntail

Harry starts this chapter nervous, with few friends and extremely fearful
for the future.

He has received the message from Sirius, arranging to meet him by the
Gryffindor Common Room fire, but is not sure if Sirius will be able to help
him in any way.

Rita Skeeter's article has been published and it turns out she had written a
highly coloured life history of Harry, instead of the expected piece on the
Triwizard Tournament. Around school students, and especially those from
Slytherin, have been quoting bits of the report at him and Hermione.

Hermione is managing to stay relatively calm but Harry is deeply upset. He
then goes and embarrasses himself in front of Cho. She tries to help him,
when he has dropped his quill, but Harry, expecting another attack on him,
shouts at her. The pressure is also affecting his schoolwork. He is unable
to master summoning charms. I wonder where these will come in useful!

Time then does it usual trick of speeding up and before Harry knows where he
is it is the weekend before the first task. This weekend is one in which the
students are allowed out to visit Hogsmeade (at least those in or above 3rd
year who have returned their signed permission form). After much convincing,
from Hermione, Harry agrees to go, but only under the invisibility cloak.

Harry is envious of the other students and their carefree Hogsmeade visit.
Hermione works on her SPEW stuff, again! They see Ron with the twins and Lee
enjoying themselves and Harry only just fights the urge to punch him. He
spots Cho, and is given some encouragement, as she is not wearing a 'Potter
Stinks' badge.

We then learn some more about Moody. His magical eye can see through Harry's
cloak. Moody tells Hagrid that Harry is in The Three Broomsticks, leading
Hagrid to arrange to meet Harry at midnight, shortly before his meeting with
Sirius.

The meeting with Hagrid happens. We see more evidence of the feelings he has
for Madame Maxime as they go on a midnight stroll. The endpoint of this
stroll is to show Harry and Madame Maxime the dragons which will be used in
the First Task. At this stage we do not learn where Hagrid learnt this
information.

We meet Charlie again, realising how much he knows about dragons and Hagrid.
We are told a little about each of the four dragons and especially learn of
the dangers of the Hungarian Horntail. I wonder which Harry will have to
face?

Harry realises he has little time left, and does not want to be around
Madame Maxime and Hagrid for much longer and so leaves. On the way back he
bumps into Karkaroff, who has been attracted to the noise of the dragons and
is investigating. Harry realises that three of the champions will now know
about the third task and we see his conscience start to act - will he tell
Cedric? The cloak proves invaluable and Harry rushes off for his meeting
with Sirius.

Sirius starts with the "how are you question" and Harry is about to answer
"I'm fine" when he instead breaks into a long talk about all his problems
(no one believes he did not enter the Tournament of his own free will, Rita
Skeeter's article, walking down corridors and being sneered at and Ron).

Sirius tells us some interesting things about Karkaroff and Moody. He says
that Karkaroff was a Death Eater and that he suspects that Dumbledore
invited the Auror Moody to Hogwarts to keep an eye on him. He believes that
the attack on Moody was real and gives us some clues about what has been
going on. More clues about Moody but still Harry, and the rest of us,
suspect nothing.

He is just about to tell something useful to Harry about how to fight the
dragons when they hear someone coming, so Sirius vanishes. It is Ron that
has come to investigate what is going on and they end up having another
verbal battle. They narrowly avoid an actual fight and Harry storms off to
bed.


Questions / Comments:
We still do not suspect Moody.
Do we have enough information yet to work out that there is something dodgy
about him?

Why will Harry not forgive Ron?
Why will Ron not forgive Harry?
Harry is more at fault for keeping this fight going. Discuss.

Sirius is not telling Harry everything he knows. I got the impression that
he was being extremely careful as to what he said.

Harry, even though he is having a very hard time, feels he must even up the
knowledge of the Champions by telling Cedric about the dragons. Discuss



Simon (I think that is all)




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 21:48:37 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:48:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 270
Message-ID: <20001116214837.21117.qmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5845

>>Wow! F. Murray Abraham in his role as Salieri was EXACTLY who I pictured
for Snape!!!

I am glad I am not the only one.....

Suzanne<<

Except he wasn't in the old-fashioned 19th century wheelchair, of course. I can't
imagine old Salieri standing up and walking around just because of that. :)

From,

Anake


=====
=========
ICQ: 37150285 | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)

"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 21:46:16 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:46:16 -0000
Subject: Quidditch (the card game)
In-Reply-To: <17.d9377fc.27453451@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8v1kj8+dnp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5846

Thanks a lot! 

 I guess I will get the game out tonight and force someone to play 
with me (g).  At least someone thought that the instructions were 
confusing too.  Now I don't feel like a total git.

I know this sounds rude (b/c JKR loves Qudditch so much..) but I've 
never thought that it would be a fun game to watch.  To play, sure, 
but to watch I think it would be over whelming as there are so many 
different balls and people to keep up with.  


Or then again maybe it's just b/c I'm not the best at sport.

Scott


> 
> Each player gets 5 cards and has to keep 5 cards in their hand, by 
drawing 
> from their OWN stack (which is odd, but there ya go).  There are 3 
piles to 
> start the game (and it really plays better with 3 people than with 
the 
> recommended 2):  Gryffindor, Slytherin, and the Pitch pile.  
Slytherin ALWAYS 
> starts the game (not fair, I think!).  The person whose birthday is 
closest 
> to Harry Potter's gets the first Pitch (although I prefer to play 
with a 
> separate person as Pitch).  A Pitch card is turned over - that 
gives the ball 
> in play.  Slytherin then plays - face down - the card they want to 
play 
> (chaser or or beater or keeper or spell, usually), then Gryffindor 
plays a 
> card.  They both turn the cards over at the same time and the 
highest 
> numbered card wins the set. If one plays a keeper and the keeper's 
card 
> number is highest, then the round continues until someone scores 
the goal - 
> which where the Pitch helps decide and keep track of what's 
happening - 
> especially if more than one ball is in play, because players can 
play to all 
> the balls in the air during their turn). If they are equal, they 
play again.  
> At the end of the round, they draw cards to get back up to 5 in 
hand.  The 
> cards determine what gets done, and the first few times, it can get 
slow and 
> complicated.  The Pitcher has the responsibility of acting as 
referee, 
> determining the order in which the cards are played, and who wins a 
round, 
> and keeping track of the number of balls in play.  You HAVE to play 
on a 
> Quaffle, but you can ignore the Bludgers for a while.  Just as the 
Golden 
> Snitch card can be ignored if no one has a seeker in hand.
> 
> Did that help any?
> 
> Nodigio
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 16 22:35:10 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:35:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 270
Message-ID: <20001116223510.19838.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5847

>>One afternoon a few years ago in Prospect Park here in Brooklyn, F. Murray
Abraham 
ran into me while he was on his bicycle.  Knocked me right on my keester.  He saw 
what he did, because he looked back at me over his shoulder as he rode away.  Never

asked if I was okay (I was), and didn't apologize.  Yeah, I could see him as Snape.

Voice "I have a problem" lady.<<

I read an article about "Amadeus" awhile back (it being my favorite movie and all)
and it said that Tom Hulce (Mozart) stayed away from Abraham while filming. I got
the impression that perhaps he has an attitude or something (Abraham). I couldn't
say, since I have never met him but I'm sure voicelady could say. :D

From,

Anake


=====
=========
ICQ: 37150285 | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)

"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov 16 21:54:12 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:54:12 -0000
Subject: Chapter 19
Message-ID: <8v1l24+6j9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5848

Great job Simon! Thanks...It is hard to pare it down to something 
concise. 
	One other thing we learn in this chapter about Moody is that he 
only drinks from his hip flask and eats only food he's prepared 
himself. I suppose what we should notice, if we are avid mystery 
readers, is that our attention and suspicion are being directed
toward Karkaroff, and on that basis we should indeed think there might 
be something dodgy about Moody. I, however, was caught flat footed on 
first reading as usual. Did anybody start being suspicious at this 
point?
And now for something completely different:
	JKR can't resist writing that Sirius spoke 'seriously'. I hereby 
offer 10 galleons for the best HP oriented Tom (Riddle) Swifty: 
Example: "I'm not leaving Tahiti," said Tom mutinously.

Pippin (stopping her ears to shut out the groans)





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 16 22:12:36 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon J. Branford)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:12:36 -0000
Subject: Moody
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGOCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5849

Pippin wrote: "One other thing we learn in this chapter about Moody is that
he only drinks from his hip flask and eats only food he's prepared himself."

>From GoF Ch 12: "The stranger [Moody] sat down, shook his mane of dark grey
hair out of his face, pulled a plate of sausages towards him, raised it to
what was left of his nose and sniffed it. He then took a small knife out of
his pocket, speared a sausage on the end of it, and began to eat."

So Moody did make a mistake. We just missed it.

Simon




From nodigio at aol.com  Thu Nov 16 22:20:13 2000
From: nodigio at aol.com (nodigio at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:20:13 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch (the card game)
Message-ID: <21.39f66bb.2745b79d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5850

>I've 
never thought that it would be a fun game to watch.  To play, sure, 
but to watch I think it would be over whelming as there are so many 
different balls and people to keep up with.  


Isn't that why they have Omnioculars?  I find watching ANY sport boring and 
no fun - even the few I play.  I don't like watching other people play 
boardgames or cardgames, either, much as I like to play those.  I definitely 
don't like to watch people read, either, unles they read aloud.

Nodigio



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Nov 17 00:56:42 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:56:42 -0500
Subject: because *we* don't do enough casting talk on our own...
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGOCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3A14824A.44C09DE7@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5851

Fandom is now letting you share your Casting Suggestions with the general pubilc
(well, those who are interested in HP, at least) - their new newsletter has the
following:

> The net is overflowing with casting news for Warner Bros. Harry
>              Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and it's as exciting as exciting
>              can be! But it leads to the question 'who will play the
>              characters from the later books?' Leonardo Di Caprio as Cedric
>              Diggory? Lucy Liu as Cho Chang? We've dodged the bullet of
>              Rosie O'Donnell as Mrs. Weasley, but what other horrors await
>              us?
>
>              So, fancy yourself a casting director? Us, too. Let's take a
>              stab at casting CoS, PoA, GoF and as many other confusing
>              acronyms as we can! Who should play a teenage Tom Riddle?
>              You tell us. Crunchably cute Sirius Black and brooding Remus
>              Lupin? Also up to you! Here's the drill: Send an email to
>              wildaboutharry at fandom.com. Include the characters' name(s)
>              and the actors/actresses you think best suited to portray
>              them. We'll accept submissions from now until Wednesday,
>              Nov. 22. Then our crack team of experts will narrow the field to the two best submissions for each
>              character (Based on our impeccable taste, of course). After which we'll put the finalists up for a
>              vote. So get casting. Remember, only you can prevent Keanu Reeves from being cast as Gilderoy
>              Lockhart. "Whoa..."
>
>              What are you waiting for? wildaboutharry at fandom.com
>

Maybe I have an overinflated sense of the importance of this list, but I am
wondering if someone from Fandom is lurking here....(or on PoU - although I'm
sure that elsewhere in the universe, people do realize that sirius is seriously
sexy...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 17 02:07:58 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:07:58 -0600
Subject: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in the mail today!
Message-ID: <000a01c0503b$37246b00$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5852

<<This is a very controversial discussion board. I have read some of these Harry Potter books and did not finish them because I found them very disturbing. Most of you in this discussion board find them "innocent" as some would find a ojua board "innocent". I'm not saying that you all play with ojua boards.(sorry for the spelling but I forgot how to spell the word) I am saying that some people find them as innocent as a game of monopoly. These books are not "innocent" You do not fight evil by casting spells and incantations. You fight evil by proclaming the name and the blood of Lord Jesus Christ...............>>

http://forums.readersdigest.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13@@.ee6ef99


Is there any way to stop the insanity?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.to  Fri Nov 17 01:19:19 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:19:19 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGNCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <B63A3817.8109%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5853

Simon J. Branford at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk wrote:

Simon, are you SURE you're not planning to be a teacher? ::grin::
 
> We still do not suspect Moody.
> Do we have enough information yet to work out that there is something dodgy
> about him?

IMHO no, we haven't been given any reason to do so. That's actually one
criticism of JKR's style -- in the first three books she (through HHR, who
we take as fact [does anyone remember the literary term for this? I'm sure
it came up in A-level English when discussing soliloquys]) automatically
pointed the finger at poor Snapey-poo, without even considering anyone else.
Of course, every time, it turned out not to be Severus. Too black-and-white
for me.

> Why will Harry not forgive Ron?
> Why will Ron not forgive Harry?

Since this is all Harry's POV, we're led to believe that it's all Ron's
fault, and the only sniping that Harry is doing is under great provocation,
blah blah blah. I think they're BOTH childish. However, on a deeper
level...I'll restate my theory that Ron's envy and lack of self-worth will
turn out to be the tragic element in HP.

> Sirius is not telling Harry everything he knows. I got the impression that
> he was being extremely careful as to what he said.

I agree. I think we can discount the "oh, Harry's just a kid" theory, since
Sirius owes his life to Harry and Hermione. However, Sirius might (at
Dumbledore's request?) be witholding the really bad stuff.

An alternative theory (for those of you familiar with the Belgariad and
Malloreon by David Eddings) is that the Forces O'Good (tm) aren't allowed to
meddle too much with their Chosen Hero (one H. Potter), or else (a) the
Forces O'Evil (tm) can do the same or (b) they'll descend to the "dark
side". Thoughts?

> Harry, even though he is having a very hard time, feels he must even up the
> knowledge of the Champions by telling Cedric about the dragons. Discuss

Oh, it's lovable, honest, reliable, moral Harry ::puke:: who feels that he
must even up the playing field. There is such a thing as a surfeit of
scruples. However, it is possible that Harry couldn't live with himself if
he didn't tell Cedric. However, we note that he didn't tell Fleur or Viktor.
He probably feels that he "owes" Cedric something for the mermaid clue (as
we see when they're at the end of the TWT).

To conclude, I think that the Harry portrayed in this chapter is VERY
one-dimensional. I'd like to see JKR put a little more realism into him.

--John

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=26685
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
Search www.fanfiction.net under "song of time" for all chapters

Novel of the moment: "Winter's Heart": Robert Jordan.
What I'm humming: "We Shall Overcome": Trad.

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From homanm at umich.edu  Fri Nov 17 01:29:34 2000
From: homanm at umich.edu (Megan Homan)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:29:34 -0500
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <002101c05035$d7e56e00$1cccd58d@reshall.umich.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5854

Hi everyone.
I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post.  I was just
wondering what PoU is.  Lots of people have mentioned it, but I'm not sure
what it stands for.
Thanks,
Meg




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 17 02:11:58 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:11:58 -0000
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <002101c05035$d7e56e00$1cccd58d@reshall.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <8v245e+sdbe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5855

Hi and Welcome to the Group!  PoU stands for "Paradigm of 
Uncertainty", a SUPERB fanfiction written by one of our own members 
(Lori)...It is definetely worth the read, and can be found on the 
links section of this club.

Scott
BTW, if you're wondering about the gleam in Dumbledore's eye, or the 
wand order thing, so have we.  The latter has recently gotten even 
more confusing as subsequent editions have the order changed to Lily 
first. If you're interested then check the archives of this site or 
at our HPforgrownups Archives club (seperate from this one).

Please do not take this unkindly it's just that EVERYONE new asks 
about it....







From lrcjestes at msn.com  Fri Nov 17 02:14:33 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:14:33 -0500
Subject: Hi - PoU
References: <002101c05035$d7e56e00$1cccd58d@reshall.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <001c01c0503c$215ee1a0$7e230f3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5856


----- Original Message -----
From: "Megan Homan" <homanm at umich.edu>

> Hi everyone.
> I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post.  I was just
> wondering what PoU is.  Lots of people have mentioned it, but I'm not sure
> what it stands for.
> Thanks,
> Meg

It is an incredibly well written fanfiction named Harry Potter and the
Paradigm of Uncertainty (hence PoU).  Its about what happens to Harry and
Hermione and assorted other HP characters around and about the time they are
in their mid-twenties. It is an incredible story that a good many members of
this list enjoy.  There is a seperate egroup list for the discussion of that
fanfic as well as its prequel "A Sirius Affair" (abbreviated ASA), its
sequel The Show that Never Ends (STNE) and another phenomenal fanfic series
featuring Draco Malfoy and Harry and the gang in their 6th year at Hogwarts
and the summer after.  These are Draco Dormiens (DD) and Draco Sinister
(DS).  PoU is complete, the rest of them are being written as we speak.  The
link is below.  To read the stories go to the page displayed by the link and
click on the files option.  You do not have to be a member of the egroup to
read the stuff in the files.  If you are an egroup member you get each new
chapter by email when they are ready.

link:

 http://www.egroups.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

I highly recommend all of these fics.  They are the best of the
fanfic...particularly that ASA...(just kidding I'm one of the authors of
that one....)

go hence and enjoy!

carole








From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Nov 17 02:43:49 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:43:49 -0500
Subject: (LONG) Canon Draco 
References: <8v13t5+l1ko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A149B65.FFA76C49@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5857

This was getting very long, so I'll just hit the high points. I need to save
SOMETHING for the FAQ (and the malfoy family discussion which is only about
6 weeks away!)
And I really want to hear what others here have to say - I need some more
good quotes for the FAQ!

Basically, the way I've been looking at it, Draco in the JKR books is the
parallel of Lestat in Interview with the Vampire (Anne Rice's first vampire
book). (I've read the first 5 vampire books but not in a few years, so this
parallel I'm drawing is all general impression)
In that book, Lestat is an evil, amoral, bullying, homicidal lunatic who
gets what's coming to him a few times but never gets completely knocked down
by it.
In its sequel, The Vampire Lestat, you learn that Lestat is probably more or
less amoral, can be a not nice companion, and is not someone you want to get
on the bad side of, but in his own way, he loves his friends, is devoted to
his mother, and a lot of the time, wants to do the right thing, but he has
absolutely no idea how to figure out what the right thing is. And even when
he tries, he doesn't necessarily get it right - and when he doesn't try, he
can appear very, very horribly evil.
And he's blond.
Now, I'm not saying that JKR is ever going to go into the depths of Draco's
psyche to explain why he is the way he is, but there's a few things that we
know about him.
1. His father is a homicidal maniac. Maybe not all the time - it seems like
he can hold it together under "normal circumstances" (i.e. he's not
stupifying the whole top box to get at Harry in GoF (hey, can anyone explain
why he didn't even accidentally pour a tankard of boiling somethingorother
on harry by "accident" at the World Cup?)) but he is one of Voldemort's
followers, and if various people hadn't had some lucky escapes, he would've
been the cause of at least one death during Harry's 2nd year, by his
placement of the Diary in Ginny's book.
2. He might be brighter than we assume. Lucius says that Draco should be
"ashamed" that Hermione did better than him in every class (even, it is
implied, potions, which is a surprise), which may imply that he's bright
enough that he should be able to be at or near the top of his class.
3. He may have a girlfriend by GoF (his relationship with Pansy is a little
unclear) but he doesn't have any good friends with brains. He seems to spend
most of his time flanked by Crabbe & Goyle and we know from the dungeon
scene in CoS that even when they're away from the public, they're pretty dim
bulbs (I had wondered in PS/SS whether they were just acting dumb in public
for some reason). Why doesn't he hang out with any other guys who has the
ability to string three multisyllabic words together? There are other boys
his age in Slytherin - well, at least one - blaise zabini. But Draco doesn't
ever show up in the stories in the company of any of them - just his
flunkies.
4. He doesn't talk much when he's around his father, in public. He doesn't
say *one word* in the scene in the Top Box - not to the trio, not to Fudge
when they are introduced. And in CoS, between the time Mr Borgin comes into
his shop and the end of the scene, he has *2* sentences, one of which is
only 4 words, and in the bookstore, doesn't speak at all between the time
his father comes over, and they leave. For some reason, the guy who has a
quip or an insult for every occasion is almost mute when Lucius is around.
And Lucius' comment that his grades aren't better than Hermione's makes him
"abashed and angry". I don't have a great explanation for it, but it just
strikes me as....well, as something.
5. One could read his horribleness regarding Hagrid as a combination of
reactions - (1) Lucius lost his position on the Hogwarts Board the previous
spring; and (2) Draco may've been instructed over the summer to, if an
appropriate situation arose, put Lucius in a position to throw some power
around, so as not to seem weakened by his ouster from the board. So when the
chance arose, he (or Lucius) took advantage of it - can't you just see
Lucius coming to see Draco after he was injured and saying "play this up as
much as you can - we'll get back at Dumbledore (and Hagrid (remember how
Hagrid spoke to him in CoS?)) for what they did to me" becuase Lucius wanted
Hagrid fired, and the execution of Buckbeak was just an ancillary "benefit"
6. The way he panicked when the dementors were on the train. He didn't just
get "freez[ing]" like the weasley twins, or like he'd \never be cheerful
again like Ron. His reaction was closer to Ginny or Neville, and we know
that they've been through some traumatic stuff. What's traumatized Poor
Little Rich Boy Draco?
7. Cassie briefly mentioned the theory some people on the even
more-"adult"-than-this-list (slash lists) are discussing - that in the
forrest at the world cup and at the end of GoF, Draco is trying to warn the
trio - the best evidence in the text I've found for this is that when he
comes to their compartment on the train, his "smirk [is] quivering" - in
other words, he may not be so steady with what he's come there to do, and is
using bravado to cover up for being nervous about warning them to be
careful. He also doesn't know just how careful Harry has been at the end of
hte year, at Sirius' insistence, and he may not know about Harry's
summertime protection (although his father now does, since Voldemort told
the Death Eaters about it) - plus, since he's always flanked by Crabbe &
Goyle, if he every did say anything nice to the trio, or any muggle-born
students, his father would likely hear about it within a day (IMHO, crabbe &
goyle are as much spies on draco as they are bodyguards - if he did anything
which Lucius would consider out of line, the would report it to him (likely
via their fathers) asap)
8. Does Draco have any idea that he was turned into a ferrett by a Death
Eater? By, in fact, the one who Voldemort describes as his most loyal
follower? We can presume that Draco wrote to Lucius about the ferret
incident, and Lucius ordered him not to make a big thing about it because of
Moody's status as an auror. But at that point, based on what Voldemort said
to the Death Eaters, Lucius would've had no idea that "Moody" was really a
Death Eater - but by now, Voldemort or Wormtail very well may've told him.
But Dumbledore never announces to the school that their DaDA teacher was
really not Moody but an imposter - so at the end of the book, it's certainly
presumable that Draco doesn't know yet. But when he gets home & finds out,
will it tip his worldview a little, to know that a Death Eater would hurt
the son of a fellow Voldemortician (I've been waiting for a chance to use
that term!)?
9.In his first scene, Draco acts like an idiot, but only in a way that
someone who has been taught that the world turns in a certain way would act.
By the time he tells Harry what he thinks of muggle-born witches & wizards,
he already knows that Harry's parents were both Magic, and his statement
about the house he wants to be in also sounds like something that's been
programmed into him - plus, Hagrid's statement about Hufflepuff ("load of
duffers") isn't so far different from Draco's (obviously exagerated) comment
that he would leave if he ended up in that house
10. In his second scene, on the train, Draco is trying, in a very inexpert
way, to make an overture of friendship to Harry - in a way that sounds like
he was told to Be Nice To The Potter Boy & See If We Can Get Him On OUr Side
by Lucius - and he offers to shake hands - it's HARRY (also very inexpert at
how to act with possible friends) who rebuffs him, in a way that probably
sounded very rude to the person who was being rebuffed. Only then does Draco
get all mean and (shudder!) SARCASTIC

Finally, in both Cassandra's and Lori's stories, it took a major shock to
the system to make Draco chose not to support the insane, homicidal maniacs
(note: I do not say "became nice" - he's never going to be, and that's
fine). It will probably take something like seeing his father kill someone
in cold blood (or having his father try to kill, or assent to kill, him) -
he may not be able to handle the former, and would never be able to handle
the latter.

Earlier, Michelle wrote:

>   Well I dunno. There has to be a baddie amongst Harry's peers. If
>   he has
>   to fight grownups from now until book 7, it could be a bit boring.
>   And
>   if all the children can be redeemed, would that really be realistic ?
>

I think she's saying a few different things here. Harry is going to keep
battling Draco - they're each other's foils - and the books definitely need
that. And yes, I think it's realistic to say that all children *can* be
redeemed, even the ones who seem evil - but only if someone in their world
is able to make a connection to them and pull them back from Very Bad
Things. At this point, the universe is open for Snape to do that for/to
Draco, but only if Snape is able to reveal (to draco if not to the geenral
public) that he is no longer a death eater - and also reveal why. MHO only -
I don't believe in the "Bad Seed" theories - I do believe in the maxim A
Child Learns What He Lives - and in the HP universe, Draco Malfoy is living
in a world where people who *should* love him do some pretty horrible things
to other children (and, at a minimum, say pretty unplesant things to him
(see # 2 & 4 above)) That's not a healthy atmosphere, even if Lucius isn't
the major child abuser that some fanfics have proposed.

I recognize that this isn't a children's series, but it does make me a
little uncomfortable to think that by Book 7, JKR will have taken someone
who was introduced to us when he was no older than 11, and possibly still
10, and turned him into a evil murderer, because if Draco does become a
Death Eater, that is what he will be.
And I'm just not sure that's right.



Cassandra Claire wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...>
> wrote:
> >
> > From working on my Malfoy FAQ, I've gone back ^ read basically
> every scene from the books that he's in, and there actually is
> support for the idea that JKR could make him into someone who steps
> back from completely becoming a homicidal maniac, which would be what
> he more or less would have to turn into if he goes the Death Eater
> route. I'll flip through it later & try to find some examples to post
> here if anyone is interested...
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> *waves at Heidi* Color me interested as well. Like I said, I've read
> some of the 're-interpretations' of various Draco scenes from the
> text (the scene in the Forbidden Forest, the scene with the dementors
> on the train in PoA, the scene at the Quidditch world cup where he
> actually seems to be 'warning' the Invincible Trio) over on the
> hpslash and draconian egroups. They've put a lot of work into it and
> wow, darned if it isn't kind of convincing. So, yes post your
> arguments here I want to see how it all stacks up.
> (And Kathleen made a good point. If they make Voldemort t-shirts and
> pens, maybe it wouldn't be so weird to make Malfoy t-shirts and pens.
> I know people who express fondness for his character who have never
> read a stitch of fanfiction in their lives.)
>
> cass
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Nov 17 02:58:34 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:58:34 -0000
Subject: because *we* don't do enough casting talk on our own...
In-Reply-To: <3A14824A.44C09DE7@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8v26sq+8esu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5858

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Fandom is now letting you share your Casting Suggestions with the 
general pubilc
> (well, those who are interested in HP, at least) - their new 
newsletter has the
> following:
> 
> > The net is overflowing with casting news for Warner Bros. Harry
> >              Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and it's as exciting 
as exciting
> >              can be! But it leads to the question 'who will play 
the
> >              characters from the later books?' Leonardo Di Caprio 
as Cedric
> >              Diggory? Lucy Liu as Cho Chang? We've dodged the 
bullet of
> >              Rosie O'Donnell as Mrs. Weasley, but what other 
horrors await
> >              us?
> >
> >              So, fancy yourself a casting director? Us, too. 
Let's take a
> >              stab at casting CoS, PoA, GoF and as many other 
confusing
> >              acronyms as we can! Who should play a teenage Tom 
Riddle?
> >              You tell us. Crunchably cute Sirius Black and 
brooding Remus
> >              Lupin? Also up to you! Here's the drill: Send an 
email to
> >              wildaboutharry at f... Include the characters' name(s)
> >              and the actors/actresses you think best suited to 
portray
> >              them. We'll accept submissions from now until 
Wednesday,
> >              Nov. 22. Then our crack team of experts will narrow 
the field to the two best submissions for each
> >              character (Based on our impeccable taste, of 
course). After which we'll put the finalists up for a
> >              vote. So get casting. Remember, only you can prevent 
Keanu Reeves from being cast as Gilderoy
> >              Lockhart. "Whoa..."
> >
> >              What are you waiting for? wildaboutharry at f...
> >
> 
> Maybe I have an overinflated sense of the importance of this list, 
but I am
> wondering if someone from Fandom is lurking here....(or on PoU - 
although I'm
> sure that elsewhere in the universe, people do realize that sirius 
is seriously
> sexy...)
> 

Lucy Liu as Cho Chang?!!??? She's a bit old to play the teen aged Cho 
Chang, imo.

And yes, I'm one of those who realizes Sirius is supposed to be very 
sexy (even in PoA).

As for Tom Riddle, Dominic Monaghan (Geoffrey on the "Hetty 
Wainthropp Investigates" series) might make a good Tom Riddle. Pic of 
him at http://www.geocities.com/dominic_mon

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Nov 17 03:45:04 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:45:04 -0000
Subject: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in the mail today!
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0503b$37246b00$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8v29k0+lj5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5859

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rohleder" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> <<This is a very controversial discussion board. I have read some 
of these Harry Potter books and did not finish them because I found 
them very disturbing. Most of you in this discussion board find 
them "innocent" as some would find a ojua board "innocent". I'm not 
saying that you all play with ojua boards.(sorry for the spelling but 
I forgot how to spell the word) I am saying that some people find 
them as innocent as a game of monopoly. These books are 
not "innocent" You do not fight evil by casting spells and 
incantations. You fight evil by proclaming the name and the blood of 
Lord Jesus Christ...............>>
> 
> http://forums.readersdigest.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13@@.ee6ef99
> 
> 
> Is there any way to stop the insanity?
> 

I went to that site and read the entire post. Apparently, that fellow 
fell into the black magic crowd of occult studies earlier in life, so 
he has a harsh opinion of the occult (understandably so, some of the 
recovering alcoholics I work with take a strong anti-drinking 
stance). IOW, he's like Snape: hung around the Dark Side and was able 
to get out. 

:-) Milz  




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 17 04:34:51 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:34:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon Draco vs Fanfic Draco
References: <8uvps5+ioar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A14B56A.9DF5E4E7@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5860

Cassandra Claire wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan
> <kathleen at c...> wrote:
> > >===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at egroups.com =====
> > >Someone was wondering why there are no Draco products for sale to
> Harry Potter fans.

>
> > Yet they market Voldemort like he's cool?
>
> ------
> Actually, that's a really good point. And Voldemort (IMHO) is one of
> the most boring villains ever. Okay, I know it's just me, but every
> time he makes an appearance, and is not actually hacking off one of
> Harry's limbs at the time, I fall asleep. As villains go, he's
> completely unseductive. Why they make t-shirts of him is a mystery.
>
> cassie

It's not just you.  I have to admit he wouldn't make my top ten villains
list, either.

Maybe he'll shape up in future books.

Peg




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 17 05:15:47 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 05:15:47 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Names...
Message-ID: <8v2eu3+bl9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5861

I thought some of you might find this interesting, its a sight 
discussing some of the names from the characters...

http://momsonline.oxygen.com/pregnant/hybrid.asp?key=BN001001




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 17 05:20:45 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 05:20:45 -0000
Subject: What's a bounce?
Message-ID: <8v2f7d+5t87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5862

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me what a 'bounce' in 
your profile means??

Thanks.

odile




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 17 04:59:53 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:59:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close   ups)  (re-sent)
References: <20001114133228.13611.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A120531.D00BFA7A@ibm.net> <014f01c04ecc$98586a40$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A14BB48.A10F7017@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5863



Denise Rogers wrote:

> The pictures of the show were wonderful!  Thanks for posting them.  I may be
> a bit behind, mentally, but which Dayton were they at?

Downtown Minneapolis Dayton's.  It's the store you see in the background if you
ever watch the old Mary Tyler Moore show, when Mary throws her hat up in the
air.

Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Nov 17 07:09:32 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:09:32 -0800
Subject: WorldCup / Omnioculars / First Task / Draco /Logo
Message-ID: <3A14D9AB.E34BFCCF@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5864

Caius wrote:   Hear, hear!  My owl will be bringing you two choice seats
to next year's World Quidditch Cup.

Do we know whether the Quidditch World Cup is annual, or is it every
four years like the soccer football World Cup and the summer Olympics?

Scott wrote: to watch, I think [Quidditch] would be overwhelming as
there are so many  different balls and people to keep up with.
Nodigio replied:  Isn't that why they have Omnioculars?

As Omnioculars can show instant replays, as I always wonder if they can
show the whole game over and over after it's finished, store the video
for years and years?

John Walton wrote: Oh, it's lovable, honest, reliable, moral Harry
::puke:: who feels that he must even up the playing field. There is such
a thing as a surfeit of scruples. However, it is possible that Harry
couldn't live with himself if  he didn't tell Cedric. However, we note
that he didn't tell Fleur or Viktor. He probably feels that he "owes"
Cedric something for the mermaid clue (as we see when they're at the end
of the TWT).

1) Cedric gave Harry the mermaid clue for the SECOND task to repay Harry
for giving Cedric the dragon clue for the FIRST task.
2) Harry gave Cedric the dragon clue because Cedric was the only one of
the four who didn't know: Fleur knew because Madame Maxime told her
after Hagrid informed Madame Maxime. Viktor knew because Karkaroff told
him after Karkaroff found out by sneaking around spying on Maxime and
Hagrid. And Harry knew because Hagrid showed him.
3) I suppose Hagrid knew about the dragons because it would be part of
his job as gamekeeper to work with/for the dragon wranglers to prepare
the place to which they were going to bring the dragons, and of course
he hung around the dragons as much as possible just because he loves
dragons.

Heidi wrote: Finally, in both Cassandra's and Lori's stories, it took a
major shock to  the system to make Draco chose not to support the
insane, homicidal maniacs [snip]. It will probably take something like
seeing his father kill someone  in cold blood [snip]

(Lucius and some of the other killers probably aren't homicidal maniacs.
Murdering people to achieve some goal is evil but not the same as
murdering people mostly for fun. Lucius seems to have been killing
people for the goal of gaining power for Voldemort and himself.)

Unfortunately, the world is full of people who see their friends and
associates kill someone in cold blood and DON'T get distressed -- maybe
even think it was kewl. I suspect the canonical Draco is in that
category, as he was not displeased to see Cedric's dead body. It is that
scene at the end of GoF that discourages me of the possibility of
redeeming Draco.

On the other tentacle, I'm worrying that the category of people who see
their friends and associates kill someone in cold blood and DO get
distressed is the category of people who are wimps. If so, I *should* be
able to think of a better reason why Snape turned against the Death
Eaters than that he is a wimp.

Logo: could we combine the Round Glasses of Simon and the Sorting Hat of
r.yoo?
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From kippesp at swbell.net  Fri Nov 17 09:16:07 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:16:07 -0000
Subject: What's a bounce?
In-Reply-To: <8v2f7d+5t87@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v2t0n+qih8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5865

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Odile " <oalburquerque at h...> wrote:
> Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me what a 'bounce' in 
> your profile means??
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> odile

Why you're a wizard of course.  Just like Neville!

(But if you're certain that the account belongs to a Muggle, then it 
means that eGroups is sending e-mail to this account and it is being 
rejected and 'bouncing' back to eGroups.)





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Nov 17 11:45:40 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:45:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Draco (again)
References: <3A14D9AB.E34BFCCF@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3A151A64.1D75E799@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5866



Catlady wrote:

> Unfortunately, the world is full of people who see their friends and
> associates kill someone in cold blood and DON'T get distressed -- maybe
> even think it was kewl. I suspect the canonical Draco is in that
> category, as he was not displeased to see Cedric's dead body. It is that
> scene at the end of GoF that discourages me of the possibility of
> redeeming Draco.

But when he saw cedric, and possibly even while he was on the train being
all obnoxious, he didn't know that his father was actually persent, not for
the death of cedric, but for the multiple attempts by Voldemort to kill
Harry immediately afterwards. And we really have no idea what his actual
reaction was. All we know is that while he was in public (the leaving feast)
he did stand to toast Cedric, and did not stand to toast Harry, and in those
circumstances, we can assume that whatever he did do, Lucius would find out
about, so whatever he really thought at the Leaving Feast, he would have to
act, outwardly, the way lucius would expect him to.
I think it must be different to see someone kill another person in cold
blood, compared to seeing a dead body while you're in a crowd of hysterical
people.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Nov 17 12:34:53 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 05:34:53 -0700
Subject: Molly Weasley Character Summary
Message-ID: <3A1525ED.F563D274@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5867

	Molly is a small, plump, kind-faced, woman who occasionally reminds
Harry of  a sabre-tooth tiger. If wizard families had pants, she would
clearly be wearing them. We meet her first in Chapter 6 of SS, when she
takes Harry under her wing, telling him how to reach platform 9 and 3/4
and discouraging her curious family from pestering him with questions
about his past. 
	Molly is the mother of six boys and one girl.  Her own children are
less than thrilled by her attention, which is often critical. Even
Percy, who seems to be her favorite, gets the rough side of her tongue
sometimes. Only Charlie seems never to earn a scolding, perhaps because
he never talks about anything except Quidditch.  She is apparently
unconcerned that he has taken up the somewhat dangerous field of dragon
study.  Is he keeping the details from her, or were there some blazing
rows in the past that are carefully not being mentioned now? 
	Molly keeps the Weasley home more or less organized, and clearly has a
loving relationship with her husband, though he does seem to escape to
his office or to his workshop quite a bit. Molly, in turn, betrays a
certain attraction to one Gilderoy Lockhart. Though the couple often
argue, it is clear that these disagreements are a product of their
concern for their family and for Harry.
	Molly sends Harry a Weasley sweater (jumper) and treats every
Christmas, as well as CARE packages in summer.  Her initial feelings of
pity for him  turn to admiration after Harry and Ron save Ginny from the
Chamber of Secrets in CoS. Nonetheless, she tries to shield Harry from
the knowledge that Sirius Black is after him. She is in for a mighty
shock at the end of GoF, when Sirius, whom she still believes to be a
murderer and an ally of Voldemort,  materializes at Harry's bedside. 
Despite this, she offers her family's aid to Dumbledore without
question. Note that she feels no need to check with her husband before
volunteering his assistance or her own. Her acceptance contrasts with
Fudge's denial, as her courtesy and kindness contrast with the Dursley's
rudeness and neglect. In one of the most moving moments in the series,
she comforts Harry with a motherly hug. We are not surprised to learn
that she has been at Dumbledore to let Harry come stay with her over the summer.
	Her relationship with Ron is more problematic. His maturing seems to
take her by surprise: she seems taken aback by his reaction to his
unsuitable dress robes in GoF, as if he were still an eleven year old
kid who didn't care if he had dirt on his nose. 
	Some previously discussed issues concerning Molly: is her hair red? is
her depiction as a stay-home-mom too conventional?  What role will she
play in the coming struggle? Is there a 7 year age gap between Charlie
and Percy? Why?



From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Nov 17 17:06:46 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:06:46 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19
References: <8v1l24+6j9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20001117180646.20CC.2.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 5868

On 16.11.2000 at 21:54:12 Pippin wrote:

>	One other thing we learn in this chapter about Moody is that he 
>only drinks from his hip flask and eats only food he's prepared 
>himself. I suppose what we should notice, if we are avid mystery 
>readers, is that our attention and suspicion are being directed
>toward Karkaroff, and on that basis we should indeed think there
>might 
>be something dodgy about Moody. I, however, was caught flat footed
>on 
>first reading as usual. Did anybody start being suspicious at this 
>point?

I sure didn't. I suspected Karkaroff to be a red herring, but Moody's
true identity caught me completely by surprise. It wasn't so much
that he tried to help Harry what fooled me. That could have been a
plan to ensnare him, after all. But when the false Moody comforted
Neville I filed him under "good guys" because it was such a
Lupin-esque thing to do. I wonder if Rowling let Lupin pave the way
for the reader's trusting Moody on purpose or id that is something
that just came up as she wrote.

Greetings
Christina

"A room without books is like a body without a soul." -Cicero

Check out our book and movie reviews at
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Nov 17 17:17:59 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:17:59 -0000
Subject: GoF Ch 19
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGNCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8v3p87+m7n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5869

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon J. Branford" 
<simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> Sirius is not telling Harry everything he knows. I got the 
impression that
> he was being extremely careful as to what he said.
> 
I think that there is a general agreement among the anti-Death-Eaters 
that there are some things they can not tell Harry.  But I have 
always belonged to the school of thought that Trelawneys first 
accurate prediction was that Harry Potter would bring about 
Voldemorts downfall.  And so they cant tell Harry about it, because 
that simply goes against the Standard Mythology Prophetic 
Acknowledgement Rules.

And I would like to thank Simon and Pippin/Rosemary/Foxmoth for 
jumping in when they were needed and providing us with their 
excellent summaries.


--Joywitch




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Fri Nov 17 19:58:59 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:58:59 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19
References: <B63A3817.8109%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <00de01c050d1$baa90580$adbc073e@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5870


----- Original Message -----
From: John Walton <john at walton.to>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19


> > Harry, even though he is having a very hard time, feels he must even up
the
> > knowledge of the Champions by telling Cedric about the dragons. Discuss
>
> Oh, it's lovable, honest, reliable, moral Harry ::puke:: who feels that he
> must even up the playing field. There is such a thing as a surfeit of
> scruples. However, it is possible that Harry couldn't live with himself if
> he didn't tell Cedric. However, we note that he didn't tell Fleur or
Viktor.
> He probably feels that he "owes" Cedric something for the mermaid clue (as
> we see when they're at the end of the TWT).

Er, no.  He is not paying back Cedric for the mermaid's clue, becuase that's
the second challenge.  It hasn't happened yet!  Cedric actually gives the
egg clue to Harry because he wants to pay him back for the dragons warning.

And he doesn't tell Victor or Fleur because their head teachers have seen
the dragons and will almost certainly pass the info on to their students.
He tells Cedric because he doesn't want Cedric to be the only one not
knowing what he's up against.

Jinx




From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Fri Nov 17 21:22:20 2000
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:22:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19
Message-ID: <22.de15836.2746fb8c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5871

In a message dated 11/17/00 12:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Changeling at darcy.inka.de writes:

<<  I suspected Karkaroff to be a red herring, but Moody's
 true identity caught me completely by surprise. It wasn't so much
 that he tried to help Harry what fooled me. That could have been a
 plan to ensnare him, after all. But when the false Moody comforted
 Neville I filed him under "good guys" because it was such a
 Lupin-esque thing to do. I wonder if Rowling let Lupin pave the way
 for the reader's trusting Moody on purpose or if that is something
 that just came up as she wrote. >>
 Delurking here, I still have a hard time with this one. It's isn't so much 
that Moody is an endearing character, or that I wanted to believe good things 
about him. It was more that 
I'd always felt bad for  Neville, and the horror Neville so obvously felt 
after the Unforgivable Curse leson was pretty much the "last straw" for me. 
The time folowing that lesson is also one of the times I've felt closest to 
Hermione, she so quickly tuned in to Neville's feelings.  ( To be a devoted 
H/H shipper I have problems getting close to Hermione, still)
   Some part of me still wants to cling to the idea that a teacher would be 
kind to Neville. And show it, not just out of pity.
~ Circe



From john at walton.to  Fri Nov 17 23:51:28 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:51:28 +0000
Subject: Chapter 1 of Song of Time @ fanfiction.net
Message-ID: <B63B7500.8177%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5872

Hi all,

Chapter 1 of Harry Potter and the Song of Time is now on fanfiction.net. The
direct link is:

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=113153

or, if you've not read the prologue, head for my author page at

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1
0323

(You may need to fix the URLs :) )

It's loosely extrapolated from (but NOT a sequel to) Cassandra Claire's
excellent Draco Dormiens and Draco Sinister.

Cheers,

--John

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Harry Potter and the Song of
Time"http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&Use
rID=10323

Novel of the moment: "Winter's Heart": Robert Jordan.
What I'm humming: "We Shall Overcome": Trad.

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Sat Nov 18 01:49:50 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReeSe)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:49:50 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19
Message-ID: <mailman.9.1576214390.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 5873


>>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Walton <john at walton.to>
>To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:19 AM
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19
>
>
>> > Harry, even though he is having a very hard time, feels he must even up
>the
>> > knowledge of the Champions by telling Cedric about the dragons. Discuss
>>
>> Oh, it's lovable, honest, reliable, moral Harry ::puke:: who feels that he
>> must even up the playing field. There is such a thing as a surfeit of
>> scruples. However, it is possible that Harry couldn't live with himself if
>> he didn't tell Cedric. However, we note that he didn't tell Fleur or
>Viktor.
>> He probably feels that he "owes" Cedric something for the mermaid clue (as
>> we see when they're at the end of the TWT).
>



>Er, no.  He is not paying back Cedric for the mermaid's clue, becuase that's
>the second challenge.  It hasn't happened yet!  Cedric actually gives the
>egg clue to Harry because he wants to pay him back for the dragons warning.
>
>And he doesn't tell Victor or Fleur because their head teachers have seen
>the dragons and will almost certainly pass the info on to their students.
>He tells Cedric because he doesn't want Cedric to be the only one not
>knowing what he's up against.
>
>Jinx


  Yeah I agree. But I also think that Harry told Cedric about the dragons because in the first place Cedric was also the chosen Hogwarts champion and Harry didn't really expect to become one(although, he dreamt about it). Maybe he thought that he didn't deserve to be a champion. Remember how surprised and speechless he was when his name came out of the goblet? After that incident people were congratulating him thinking that he intenionally put his name in the goblet. Of course no one believed that it was a mistake except for Hermione and a few others and he tried to tell them that he didn't put his name in the goblet. He even got into a fight with Ron because of this. After he found out about the dragons, he still haven't the slightest clue about how he could make it through the first task. By telling Cedric about the dragons, Harry might have hoped that Cedric would win the first task since he was the rightful champion. 

Reese :) 
  

__________________________________
www.edsamail.com



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov 18 02:58:46 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 02:58:46 -0000
Subject: Translation from English to American, Please?
Message-ID: <8v4r96+74ms@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5874

Here's a quote of a quote from Ian Hart, playing Quirrell/Voldemort 
in the Movie. Can one of the bretheren or sisteren from across the 
pond translate the meaning of "posh" for us colonials?  I'm not sure 
what he's trying to say:

"The cast is brilliant," says Hart of the phenomenal line-up, which 
includes names as Richard Harris and Dame Maggie Smith, "Maggie's 
very nice, so's Alan Rickman, he's absolutely great as Snape.
I'm the only person who's not posh in the entire cast, and
I'm very happy with that." 

Thanks,
Jim Flanagan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 18 03:16:51 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:16:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGNCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <004501c0510d$ff635ae0$55c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5875


----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon J. Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: "HPforGU" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 4:11 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch 19


> > Questions / Comments:
> We still do not suspect Moody.
> Do we have enough information yet to work out that there is something
dodgy
> about him?
>
One thing I noted re-reading GoF: Moody/Crouch never refers to Voldemort by
name - it's always "the Dark Lord." This seems quite against Dumbledore's
instruction that we should always refer to him by his real name.  Voldy's
most stalwart opponents - Harry, Lupin, Sirius Black - always do. (Is this a
clue to where Snape's loyalties lie?)

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 18 03:23:31 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:23:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19
References: <8v1l24+6j9q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c0510e$eda6d6a0$55c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5876


----- Original Message -----
From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 4:54 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19


> JKR can't resist writing that Sirius spoke 'seriously'. I hereby
> offer 10 galleons for the best HP oriented Tom (Riddle) Swifty:
> Example: "I'm not leaving Tahiti," said Tom mutinously.
>

"Did you hear the one about the four-thousand pound German?" asked Karkaroff
Teutonically................

    - CMC




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Nov 18 03:34:35 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 03:34:35 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation from English to American, Please?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001118033435.008fe5d8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5877

Jim wrote:

>Here's a quote of a quote from Ian Hart, playing Quirrell/Voldemort 
>in the Movie. Can one of the bretheren or sisteren from across the 
>pond translate the meaning of "posh" for us colonials?  I'm not sure 
>what he's trying to say:
>
>"The cast is brilliant," says Hart of the phenomenal line-up, which 
>includes names as Richard Harris and Dame Maggie Smith, "Maggie's 
>very nice, so's Alan Rickman, he's absolutely great as Snape.
>I'm the only person who's not posh in the entire cast, and
>I'm very happy with that." 

"Posh" refers to being well-spoken/upper-class, whereas Ian Hart is a more
down to earth "working class" lad.  To be honest, I wouldn't regard some of
the adult cast (Julie Walters, Robbie Coltrane...) as posh, but it's true
that they are largely theatrical "luvvie" types.
 
Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 17 20:40:06 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:40:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close   ups)  (re-sent)
References: <20001114133228.13611.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <3A120531.D00BFA7A@ibm.net> <014f01c04ecc$98586a40$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com> <3A14BB48.A10F7017@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <021801c050d6$92853240$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5878

Ahhh, a store called Dayton!


Chuckles, and moves to the wall, to bang sense into herself.



(Dayton, Ohio....home of the Wrights...)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dayton's Harry Potter Show - Part 5a (Close
ups) (re-sent)


>
>
> Denise Rogers wrote:
>
> > The pictures of the show were wonderful!  Thanks for posting them.  I
may be
> > a bit behind, mentally, but which Dayton were they at?
>
> Downtown Minneapolis Dayton's.  It's the store you see in the background
if you
> ever watch the old Mary Tyler Moore show, when Mary throws her hat up in
the
> air.
>
> Peg
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 18 03:51:48 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Roger)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Translation from English to American, Please?
Message-ID: <20001118035148.8527.qmail@web2103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5879


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> Jim wrote:
> 
> >Here's a quote of a quote from Ian Hart, playing
> Quirrell/Voldemort 
> >in the Movie. Can one of the bretheren or sisteren
> from across the 
> >pond translate the meaning of "posh" <snip> I'm the
only person who's not posh in the entire
> cast, and
> >I'm very happy with that." 
> 
> "Posh" refers to being well-spoken/upper-class,
> whereas Ian Hart is a more
> down to earth "working class" lad.  To be honest, I
> wouldn't regard some of
> the adult cast (Julie Walters, Robbie Coltrane...)
> as posh, but it's true
> that they are largely theatrical "luvvie" types.
>  
> Neil
> 
So this is the reason for the infamous (ducks the
pillows from Simon, Neil, and Nick) POSH SPICE????

Grins wickedly and runs away.


I figured it meant something along those lines.

Thanks Neil. :)

=====
:)

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Nov 18 04:07:13 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:07:13 +0000
Subject: Posh 
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001118040713.00907228@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5880

At 19:51 11/17/2000 -0800, Dee wrote:

>> 
>So this is the reason for the infamous (ducks the
>pillows from Simon, Neil, and Nick) POSH SPICE????
>
>Grins wickedly and runs away.
>
>
>I figured it meant something along those lines.

You and your pillows, Dee!

Posh also means smart/stylish and Victoria Beckham - aka Posh Spice - got
her nickname more from her appearance than her speech.  As soon as she opens
her gob to speak she gives the game away - she's not in the least bit posh.  

As a reference point, in the HP books, the Malfoys would be posh people, the
Dursleys would aspire to be posh people and the Weasleys would certainly not
be posh people.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Sat Nov 18 05:01:49 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 05:01:49 -0000
Subject: Hedwig/Dumbledore Theory
In-Reply-To: <8uvrbn+96hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v52ft+p43f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5881

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Odile Alburquerque" 
<oalburquerque at h...> wrote:
>      Just stumbled upon a theory. . . i think that Hedwig could be 
> some extension of Dumbledore.  Think about it,  Hagrid gave Hedwig 
to 
> Harry as a present. So, Harry didn't choose her.  And, in PS/SS, 
when 
> Hedwig was sent to London to get Dumbledore, Dumbledore said, "We 
> must have crossed midair."
> 
>     Maybe, Hedwig is a transfiguration of Dumbledore...that is how 
> he's able to protect Harry.
> 
> Just thinking,
> Odile

Don't think so. Hagrid got her from a shop didn't he and he just 
thought it would be useful for Harry to have an owl because toads 
were out of fashion. Also, Hedwig's a female owl. I believe 
transfiguration doesn't change the gender of the witch/wizard.
Hedwig and AB must have really crossed in mid-air. Makes me wonder if 
AB flew to London on a broom.

It's an interesting theory though. Another thought is that Dumbledore 
can make himself invisible without the use of an invisibility cloak. 
He alluded to that in the Mirror of Erised when he told Harry he 
didn't need the cloak to be invisible. 

I'm also wondering if Crookshanks could be more than a cat. Sorry I 
didn't read earlier posts on this matter if any. He's a tad too smart 
to be an ordinary cat. 

Gen








From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov 18 05:05:22 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 05:05:22 -0000
Subject: Translation from English to American, Please?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001118033435.008fe5d8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8v52mi+au4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5882

>
> "Posh" refers to being well-spoken/upper-class, whereas Ian Hart
> is a more down to earth "working class" lad.  To be honest, 
> I wouldn't regard some of the adult cast (Julie Walters, 
> Robbie Coltrane...) as posh, but it's true that they are 
> largely theatrical "luvvie" types.
>  
> Neil

Thanks, Neil. I've heard of posh furnishings and posh accents, but 
it seems a little strange to think about posh people. 

I wonder what kind of accent they're going to give Lord V?  Tom 
Riddle was raised in an orphanage, so I presume that he would have a 
regional accent of some kind. 

-Jim Flanagan
Born in the U.S. of A.







From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 18 07:05:05 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 07:05:05 -0000
Subject: Posh
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001118040713.00907228@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8v59n1+h4no@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5883

Just for a point of reference POSH comes from cabin 
assignments on cruise ships "port out, starboard home", these 
were the best cabins due to sun  placement on the runs in the 
early days of cruise ships. These cabins were also the most 
expensive, hence the term posh.

just an odd bit of trivia,

Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Nov 18 12:22:33 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 07:22:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] semi-OT - for those with HP sites
References: <8us2pk+e7ba@eGroups.com> <009a01c04eb5$e47e3f60$0343ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3A167488.B971068C@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5884

I know a lot of you have "adopted" characters on your sites from some person
whohas really cute, semi-anime drawings of the characters - I found a very cute
site this week where you can "borrow" a button to show your HP-fanaticism and
declare who you relate to most - it's at
http://members.aol.com/CatzNdogz/personalities.html - the really funny ones are
on the misc page




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 18 19:05:36 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:05:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor
References: <F147Uw0DyLD0WqS9cZR000014ed@hotmail.com> <00dc01c04dae$c07f7280$b18e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <014401c05192$8965d040$89c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5885


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <jinxster at cyberlass.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Heidi Henshaw <hermione_heidi at hotmail.com>
> To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 1:55 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:new Proffesor
>
>
> > Hi I'm  Heidi and I have heard that the new professor at Hogwarts will
be
> > Neville Longbottom, and that he will teach Herbology.
>
> Good Lord.  Do you think he'll cope, having to share a staff room with
> Snape?
>
As long as Snape obliges by dressing like Grandma Longbottom, he'll do just
fine.

    - CMC




From fireflymoon at usa.net  Sat Nov 18 20:41:01 2000
From: fireflymoon at usa.net (Rave )
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:41:01 -0000
Subject: *delurk and imperius curse*
Message-ID: <8v6pgt+hdh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5886

er. hello--i'm new, and a compulsive lurker (a dangerous combination, 
i know). *waves nervously* I'm not exactly sure of the protocol for 
posting questions or trying to start discussions, so I thought I'd 
just throw this out there. 

There's an interesting little one-sentence snippet in GoF(it's 
possible that you've all brought this up before, but i haven't seen 
it) where the Imperius curse is put on Harry by Voldemort: "And Harry 
felt, for the third time in his life" the effects of the Imperius 
curse. my question was--why the third? We know it happened once 
before, with Moody (and it is mentioned that Moody put the curse on 
him several more times, but presumably Harry is no longer so 
susceptible to it after the first.) I just thought it was a bit 
strange, and wondered if anyone had some opinions on it...or if 
you've already gone over this several times.

-rave
*edging back into lurkerdom*




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 18 22:13:27 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:13:27 -0600
Subject: Not attending Chat
Message-ID: <007801c051ac$c71c0160$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5887

Hello!  Due to another engagement (Like being kidnapped by the good-natured GoF buyer KAT! :) for a kids' faire)  I will not be able to attend the weekly chat tomorrow!  I do promise to read the chat-script when it's posted at the egroup site! (Thanks Simon for your help in clearing that file-system up!)

:)

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 18 22:26:42 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:26:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Beatles Revolution
Message-ID: <20001118222642.17443.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5888

Did anyone catch the Beatles Revolution last night? It was two hours long and was a
retrospect of the history of the Beatles with celebrities chiming in to tell their
POV of their loveof the Beatles or what not. Anyway, JK Rowling was on and she told
of an amusing story of when she was on a train with her friends. They were drunk
and attempting to sing "Hey Jude." And that's why that's her favorite song. That's
always been my favorite Beatles song, too. And no, I'm not saying that b/c it's
Rowling's favorite. 

From,

Anake

=====
=========
ICQ: 37150285 | Voicemail: 1-800-MY-YAHOO (333-702-1984)

"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

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Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 18 21:59:40 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:59:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] *delurk and imperius curse*
References: <8v6pgt+hdh3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c051aa$da971b00$47c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5889


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rave " <fireflymoon at usa.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 3:41 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] *delurk and imperius curse*


> er. hello--i'm new, and a compulsive lurker (a dangerous combination,
> i know). *waves nervously* I'm not exactly sure of the protocol for
> posting questions or trying to start discussions, so I thought I'd
> just throw this out there.

That's the prescribed protocol exactly!
>
> There's an interesting little one-sentence snippet in GoF(it's
> possible that you've all brought this up before, but i haven't seen
> it) where the Imperius curse is put on Harry by Voldemort: "And Harry
> felt, for the third time in his life" the effects of the Imperius
> curse. my question was--why the third? We know it happened once
> before, with Moody (and it is mentioned that Moody put the curse on
> him several more times, but presumably Harry is no longer so
> susceptible to it after the first.) I just thought it was a bit
> strange, and wondered if anyone had some opinions on it...or if
> you've already gone over this several times.

See Chap. 33 (p. 652-53 of the American edition), where Voldemort is
reminiscing over his murder of James and Lily - Voldy tried to kill Harry,
presumably with a Kedrava curse.  But Lily provided Harry with an as-yet
undescribed protection ("old magic" Voldy describes - presumably not "that
old black magic" of the popular song) which deflected the curse back on him.
The only effect Harry suffered was the scar on his forehead.

    - CMC







From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Sat Nov 18 22:56:16 2000
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:56:16 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Beatles Revolution
Message-ID: <97.d469b62.27486310@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5890

In a message dated 11/18/00 5:13:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
neptune_1984 at yahoo.com writes:

<< Did anyone catch the Beatles Revolution last night? >>
I watched a tape of this today, my parents both being exreme Beatles fans. It 
was great to see J. K.  Rowling having a chance to publicly discuss something 
other than the Harry pottter books, and  can you imagine how relieved she was 
to be asked to give ideas and opinions on someone's  work other than her own. 
 It was probaly my imagination, but it seeemed she was on for more comments 
than many others on there.
And  she said she still had a "bit of a thing" for George Harrison.
 ~ Circe



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Nov 18 23:08:28 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:08:28 -0000
Subject: Printing 9 and 3/4
Message-ID: <8v725c+rgr0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5891

I went to Barnes & Noble today for the sole purpose of sneaking a 
peek at the 9th printing and saw for myself the corrected text. Gave 
me a bit of a disappointment, thinking that all my (our) wild fancies 
about the reversal of echoes were simply a mistake.  So although I 
know that it was merely a dreadful mistake that wasn't caught by the 
editors or Jo, I much prefer my own belief that it was Harry's 
inherent magic that changed the order of the Priori Incantatem.

Also had a drooly moment over the HP desk set-Hogwarts crest mouse 
pad, Gryffindor CD holder, and Hedwig post-it note holder. Managed to 
tear myself away and go on about my business.

Trina




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 19 06:39:04 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:39:04 -0600
Subject: 7 Heavenly Virtues: Justice (LONG)
Message-ID: <3A177587.94460C42@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5892

If the Harry Potter series concerns the conflict of good versus evil,
then the point where good and evil clash is the domain of the fifth
virtue, Justice.  Related concepts for purposes of this discussion
include fairness, impartiality, equity, rightness and dispassion.

In my essay on the second virtue, Hope, I discussed the imagery Rowling
uses to depict Harry as a prisoner while he lives with the Dursleys.  Of
course, if the world is a properly run place, where good triumphs and
evil is vanquished, the prisoner IS a prisoner because of the workings
of justice.  But in a world where good and evil have become confused,
that is, if the prisoner has been wrongfully imprisoned, then hope
whispers that when good is restored to its rightful place, justice will
eventually set the prisoner free.

When the first book begins, Harry, as a prisoner, has no understanding,
no expectation of justice.  The Dursleys present themselves as model
citizens to the world, but any civility and graciousness they present is
merely a facade (see, for example, the elaborate charade planned for the
benefit of the builder and his wife Vernon has invited to dinner in
Chapter One of CoS).  The Dursleys' actual cruel and capricious nature
is revealed in their treatment of Harry.  The philosopher Thomas Hobbes
(a pessimist about human nature if there ever was one, who  believed
that most people at heart were really like the Dursleys) offers a famous
summation of what life is like in its natural state, i.e., the life that
Harry lives while subject to the Dursleys' tender mercies: "no arts; no
letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear . . .
solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. . . . "

The world of sneers, buffets and torments that Harry has grown up with
is the only world he knows.  Being treated with fairness feels unreal,
unfamiliar, even disorienting.  One example is the memorable morning
when Henry was unexpectedly allowed to go to the zoo on Dudley's
birthday, the day he accidentally sics a boa constrictor on his cousin.
The fact that he could go to the zoo at all means "he could hardly
believe his luck."  Being allowed to have a lemon ice and then being
allowed to finish Dudley's rejected knickerbocker glory is a strange
novelty.  When it all ends badly, "Harry felt, afterward, that he should
have known it was all too good to last."

But after some time at Hogwarts, Harry is starting to develop a sense of
what real justice looks like and feels like.  And as he does, he is
becoming less willing to assume the role of the unjustly punished
prisoner.  Note, for example, the scene at the end of Chapter Two in
PoA.  In his rage at the unfairness of Aunt Marge's sneers at the memory
of his parents, he unconsciously uses his magic to "blow her up."   His
defense? Simple justice.  "She deserved it.  She deserved what she got."

This sense that some things that are fair and some that are not--a sense
of justice, in other words--is a natural stage in children, according to
theologian C.S. Lewis.  (Aside: in fact, Lewis starts his explanation of
the way a person builds an ethical framework from this point, a child's
sense of justice--I cannot find my copy of Mere Christianity at the
moment and so cannot quote the exact passage).

It is particularly interesting to note the other scene in dealing with
justice in Chapter Two of PoA, the one which begins the chapter, thus
"bookending" the scene with Aunt Marge.  Together, these two scenes will
kick off the theme of justice, which will be broadly dealt with in books
three and four.  Harry learns for the first time of another person,
someone who has been held prisoner (like himself), who has
escaped--Siruis Black.  If I had known when I first read PoA what I have
since learned through the process of writing these essays, I would have
instantly realized that Sirius Black had to be innocent, simply from the
fact that Dursleys, our examples throughout the books of moral
antimatter, were convinced that he was guilty:

"No need to tell us he's no good," snorted Uncle Vernon, staring over
the top of his newspaper at the prisoner.  "Look at the state of him,
the filthy layabout!  Look at his hair!"  . . . [True to type, all the
Dursleys concentrate primarily on appearances above all else.]  "When
will they learn," said Uncle Vernon, pounding on the table with his
large purple fist, "that hanging's the only way to deal with these
people?"

Of course, as Harry will learn, when good and evil collide, justice
often isn't as easy as Uncle Vernon makes it out to be.

Here are some questions which might be raised while considering the role
of justice in the series, along with illustrative examples.

1) Has a wrong actually been committed?

2) Are we absolutely sure we're accusing the correct person?

3) Was this wrong committed with intentional malice, or was the action
coerced by something or someone else--or was it simply a mistake?

4) If we are sure we have the correct person, and that they committed
this act intentionally, how can justice best be served?

Let's look at these each in turn:

1) Has a wrong actually been committed?

This is not always clear.  One of the best examples of how this is an
ongoing question is the plot line with the house elves.  Hermione is
convinced that the house elves are living and working in an unjust
arrangement, but she is having a great deal of difficulty finding anyone
who agrees with her, even among the house elves.  I must admit to some
degree of discomfort with this plot line.  When Hagrid earnestly
explains to Hermione that she's doing an unkindness to the house elves
by trying to agitate about their working conditions, because it's in
their nature to look after humans (Chapter Sixteen), it made me squirm.
The whole setup reminded me so strongly of some old videos I'd seen from
the history of the American civil rights movement, where smug white
matrons looked into the camera and explained that none of the blacks in
town never wanted to sit in the front of the bus or sit at the lunch
counter until "them Yankees" came into town and got everything stirred
up.  Hermione doesn't seem to have converted anyone to her point of
view, aside, perhaps, from Dobby.  But Dobby and Winky seem to be an
embarrassment to the other house elves, and most humans pay no attention
to Hermione's campaign at all.  Indeed, Rowling seems to be setting
Hermione up for at least some ridicule with this story line, e.g., the
fact that Hermione chose "S.P.E.W." for the acronym for her society
makes the whole idea seem absurd.

And yet, Rowling isn't entirely ridiculing the idea of house elf
liberation: after all, it is Dumbledore who is Dobby's new employer, who
tells Dobby that he can say and think whatever he likes.

My guess is that this storyline is still very nascent, and so we'll have
to see what Rowling does with it in the future.  She once worked for
Amnesty International, and has spoken in interviews about how that has
affected her opinions, particularly about bigotry, so I doubt that house
elves will continue to be happily slaving for the Malfoy family at the
end of book 7.  Other than that, I cannot say for certain where this
plot thread will lead.  But it is clear at least that Rowling is
interested in writing about situations where an unjust situation exists,
but the culture has not quite yet recognized that injustice.  By trying
to push that cultural awareness to move at a faster pace, Hermione may
be hurting her own cause--the quiet behind-the-scenes methods of
Dumbledore might be more helpful in the long run, Rowling seems to
suggest.

Another instance of where it is unclear whether a wrong has been
committed is the running mystery of how Rita Skeeter is getting her
scoops.  Hermione finally discovers that she has been "bugging them,"
literally, and fits the punishment to the crime: she forces Rita to
remain a bug until Rita agrees not to write any more poison pen stories
for a year.

We have plenty of other instances where it is certainly clear that a
wrong has DEFINITELY been committed: the murder of James and Lily by
Voldemort, the torture of the Longbottoms, the murder of Cedric, etc.
The trouble then lies in trying to determine beyond a reasonable doubt
who committed these crimes (question 2), were they actually responsible
for the crime (question 3) and if so, what should be done with them?
(question 4)

In both PoA and GoF, Rowling gives us villains who use deception to hide
their acts, and in doing so allow blame for their crimes to fall upon an
innocent person.  In PoA, Peter Pettigrew frames Sirius for the murder
of James and Lily.  In GoF, Barty Crouch, Jr. allows Winky to accept the
blame for conjuring the Dark Mark, uses the Imperio curse to make it
look as though Victor Krum has used the Cruciatus curse on Cedric
Diggory, and, of course, assumes the identity of Alistar Moody as part
of his scheme to deliver Harry to Voldemort.

In an attempt to organize this, let's look at several trials:
- the trial of Karkaroff; which Harry sees in the Pensieve,
- second, the trial of Ludo Bagman (in the Pensieve)
- third, the trial of the torturers of the Longbottoms (including Barty
Crouch, Jr.) (also in the Pensieve); and
- fourth, the "trial" of Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack.

It is a sign of Rowling's skill that none of the trials that Harry sees
in the Pensieve feel "right" although on the surface all seem to have
reached the right result.  Bagman is shown mercy, Karkaroff, an admitted
deatheater, agrees to help the wizarding community, providing helpful
information, and the torturers of the Longbottoms are given a harsh
sentence.

First: the trial of Ludo Bagman.  It is clear from the comments of the
onlookers, that Ludo Bagman's status as a Quidditch star has severely
hampered the ability of those sitting in judgment of him at this trial
to judge him fairly.  Ideal justice is often depicted as a blindfolded
woman, holding the scales of justice.  In Ludo Bagman's case, however,
the blindfold is off, and the judges are blinded by Bagman's celebrity.
And because Justice is not dispassionately evenhanded, Bagman is allowed
to get away with minimizing the crime.  "I've been a bit of an idiot,"
he says, and the onlookers (except for Barty Crouch, Sr. and Alistar
Moody) react indulgently.  "How was I to know?" Bagman says plaintively,
and because he is a sports hero, the wizarding community is willing to
give him the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps Bagman deserves mercy,
perhaps not.  The implication is strong, however, that REASON he is
being given mercy here is not a fair one, and therefore, justice has not
been truly administered here.

There is no indulgence, on the other hand, for Karkaroff.  He is
condemned, but saves himself by naming others to the investigators.
Rowling carefully notes, with references to his facial expression and
body language, along with running commentary about his treacherousness
supplied by Alistar Moody, that Karkaroff's motivation is not the one he
professes.  One of the functions of justice is to return rehabilitated
wrongdoers to society once they have fully owned up to their crimes,
repented of them, made their amends, and endured the punishment that
society has meted out.  But while Karkaroff has owned up to his crimes,
we get the sense that he has done so only because he was caught
red-handed.  He is not truly repenting and turn his efforts to defeating
Voldemort--he is trying to save his own skin.  The sense is that his
liberty is not being given to him because he has earned it through his
innocence.  He is not, in fact, innocent.  Instead, he has purchased it
by trading information about the enemy for it.  Purchased justice is
suspect.  And if Karkaroff has not truly repented, then, Harry and the
reader is left to wonder, isn't he fully capable of treachery now--say,
treachery toward Harry?  Again, the decision reached by Karkaroff's
judges does not quite satisfy.

The third trial seen in the Pensieve is that of the the group which
tortured the Longbottoms, including the Lestranges and Barty Crouch,
Jr.  Certainly we are convinced that the crime is terrible.  The reader
is inclined to sympathy toward Neville Longbottom; Dumbledore tells us
that his parents were beloved, and anyone who attacks Neville's parents
should be caught and punished.  Somebody should pay.  And yet . . . and
yet . . .

Again, this trial feels wrong.  First of all, Barty Crouch, Sr. sits in
judgment of his own son.  For a parent to be in that position in the
trial of his own child is a clear conflict of interest.  Sirius tells
Harry (and the reader) at another point in the book that it wasn't much
of a trial, that Barty Crouch, Sr. simply used it as an opportunity to
distance himself from his son, so that his own reputation would not be
equally besmirched.  This assessment is certainly borne out by Harry's
observation.  Barty Crouch, Sr. is not dispassionate and impartial in
this scene--instead, he is vindictive, even cruel.  Barty Crouch, Jr.
seems to be merely a frightened innocent--but we don't know for sure,
and the implication is that no one knows, because everyone is so angry
at the crime that the true question of Barty Crouch, Jr.'s guilt or
innocence is not being carefully examined.  The question is being swept
away in the tidal wave of revulsion at the crime.

The fourth trial is the trial of Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking
Shack.  As the whole story is explained to Harry, Ron and Hermione, the
reader is struck again by the impression that "our side," meaning the
wizarding community fighting Voldemort, in this case too has done a
terrible job of administering justice.  Sirius, we learn, is actually
innocent, and has done thirteen years of time at Azkaban for a crime
that he didn't actually commit.

And yet, ironically, while the cornered Peter Pettigrew denies his
involvement in the murder of James and Lily, Sirius on the other hand
willingly accepts blame for his part in their death:

"You killed my parents," said Harry, his voice shaking slightly, but his
wand hand held quite steady."

Black stared up at him with those sunken eyes.

"I don't deny it," he said very quietly, "But if you know the whole
story."

"The whole story?" Harry repeated, a furious pounding in his ears.  "You
sold them to Voldemort.  That's all I need to know."

"You've got to listen to me," Black said, and there was a note of
urgency in his voice now.  "You'll regret it if you don't. . ."

That is what we need to know, in order for justice to be served.  WE
NEED TO KNOW THE WHOLE STORY.  It's the only way to know what the
correct action should be when we must judge the wrongdoers.  I suggest
that Dumbledore is not satisfied with the results of the trials seen in
the Pensieve, and he adds more thoughts to the bowl, partly to empty his
mind, as he tells Harry--but partly because he is still trying to learn
and understand everything that he will need to judge dispassionately and
correctly.  That is why he administers the Veritaserum to Barty Crouch,
Jr.--to learn the rest of the story.

On the other hand, the wizarding world at large, represented at the end
of GoF by Cornelius Fudge, dashes our hopes for equitable justice yet
again.  Just as Harry almost refused to listen to Sirius Black in the
Shrieking Shack (and just as Snape in fact did refuse to listen to
Sirius), Cornelius Fudge allows the dementors to administer the Kiss to
Barty Crouch, Jr., cutting off any chance that he could tell his story,
and he refuses to listen to Dumbledore's warning that Voldemort has
returned.  This abject failure on Fudge's part is extremely worrisome,
and it offers a golden opportunity to Voldemort that I don't think the
Dark Lord will be slow to seize.

The Dementors themselves are silent.  They do not allow stories to be
told, and they have no use for rehabilitation.  Dumbledore is therefore
right--they are not appropriate guardians of justice, at least, not the
kind of justice which can properly arbite good and evil in the struggle
against Voldemort.

We have hope, however, in the figure of Harry Potter.  Harry has the
thirst to find out the true story, the assistance of Ron and Hermione
(among others) in uncovering it, the courage to face it, and the
patience to hear it all.  And, when given the opportunity, as he was in
PoA, we know that he can temper justice with both dispassion and mercy,
as he did when he weighed the fate of Peter Pettigrew.  Dumbledore, that
brooding master of the Pensieve, offers us hope: "The time may come when
you will be very glad that you saved Pettigrew's life."

Will justice be served?

We shall simply have to wait to know the rest of the story to see.

For further reading about the 7 Heavenly Virtues, see:
http://www.deadlysins.com/virtue.htm

For further reading about the philosophy of Thomas Hobbes, see:
http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/3x.htm

For a summary of Lawrence Kohlberg's work on moral development read:
http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/kohlberg.html

For those of you who would like to review the earlier essays I have
written about the 7 Deadly Sins and the 7 Heavenly Virtues up until this
one, following are the message numbers:

7 Deadly Sins:
Pride: 1553
Envy: 1699
Gluttony: 1878
Lust: 2118
Anger: 2545
Covetousness: 2877
Sloth: 2998

7 Heavenly Virtues:
Faith: 3468
Hope: 3660
Charity: 4371
Fortitude: 4797

Related essays, possibly also of interest:

Loyalty: 788
Secrets: 957
Courtesy and Ambition: 1209

Comments, as always, are appreciated.
Peg





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 19 03:30:46 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:30:46 -0600
Subject: TThoughts...
References: <8v6pgt+hdh3@eGroups.com> <001c01c051aa$da971b00$47c44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <00db01c051d9$1bdb8be0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5893

First,
In London, (if you have scene the movie Bedknobs & Broomsticks) is Diagon
Alley anything like Portibello Road (the dance/song number)?

Second,
Do you think that perhaps Sirius looks are based on George Harrison?
Grins...

~Dee~



:)
"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Nov 19 10:35:58 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:35:58 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19
References: <22.de15836.2746fb8c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003201c05214$8379e040$fe8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 5894

OTOH, that comforting of Neville actually proves what a git Crouch Jr. is,
if you think about it.

After all, what did he get sent down for?  Torturing Neville's parents.  He
does that to them, then when confronted with the effect it's had on Neville,
pretends to comfort him solely for the purpose of planting information on
him that will help further his plans for Harry.  No remorse anywhere.

Jinx

----- Original Message -----
From: <EvenCirce713 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19


> In a message dated 11/17/00 12:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Changeling at darcy.inka.de writes:
>
> <<  I suspected Karkaroff to be a red herring, but Moody's
>  true identity caught me completely by surprise. It wasn't so much
>  that he tried to help Harry what fooled me. That could have been a
>  plan to ensnare him, after all. But when the false Moody comforted
>  Neville I filed him under "good guys" because it was such a
>  Lupin-esque thing to do. I wonder if Rowling let Lupin pave the way
>  for the reader's trusting Moody on purpose or if that is something
>  that just came up as she wrote. >>
>  Delurking here, I still have a hard time with this one. It's isn't so
much
> that Moody is an endearing character, or that I wanted to believe good
things
> about him. It was more that
> I'd always felt bad for  Neville, and the horror Neville so obvously felt
> after the Unforgivable Curse leson was pretty much the "last straw" for
me.
> The time folowing that lesson is also one of the times I've felt closest
to
> Hermione, she so quickly tuned in to Neville's feelings.  ( To be a
devoted
> H/H shipper I have problems getting close to Hermione, still)
>    Some part of me still wants to cling to the idea that a teacher would
be
> kind to Neville. And show it, not just out of pity.
> ~ Circe





From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Sun Nov 19 15:41:08 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:41:08 -0400
Subject: Portkeys
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED61@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5895

Hi, I'm also a newbie/lurker stepping out with a question ... my apologies
if this has been asked before.

In G0F, the group going to the Quidditch World Cup use a portkey that was
set to take them at a certain time. From what I understand, portkeys are set
to be used only at a certain time. Mr Weasley checks the time on his watch
so that they know when they will be leaving. (I'm at work, don't have the
book with me).

But when Cedric and Harry touch the cup in the maze, and get whisked away to
Voldy and Wormtail - how could that have worked if portkeys can only be used
at certain times? Did Moody/Barty Jr control the events in the maze so that
Harry reached the cup at the right time?

Angela





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Nov 19 16:37:21 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:37:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkeys
References: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED61@lincoln.starchoice.com>
Message-ID: <3A1801C1.8887293D@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5896



ABoyko at starchoice.com wrote:

> In G0F, the group going to the Quidditch World Cup use a portkey that was
> set to take them at a certain time. From what I understand, portkeys are set
> to be used only at a certain time. Mr Weasley checks the time on his watch
> so that they know when they will be leaving. (I'm at work, don't have the
> book with me).
>
> But when Cedric and Harry touch the cup in the maze, and get whisked away to
> Voldy and Wormtail - how could that have worked if portkeys can only be used
> at certain times? Did Moody/Barty Jr control the events in the maze so that
> Harry reached the cup at the right time?

This has come up here on occasion before, but it certainly be asked again (full
disclosure here - I've known Angela for about 5 years now, from another mailing
list) - one thing that's been discussed is that there are 2 different kinds of
portkeys - the kind that work as soon as they are touched (like the Triwizard
Cup one (and the kind Cassandra created in Draco Sinister for a certian evil
person whose initials are SS to use)) and the kind that work at a certain time,
liek the kind used to get to the Quidditch World Cup - in other words, there are
2 triggers - time, and touch.




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Sun Nov 19 18:09:58 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:09:58 -0000
Subject: Translation from English to American, Please?
In-Reply-To: <8v52mi+au4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v951m+su8u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5897

The word Posh is commonly believed to have originally been an acronym 
for Port Over Starboard Home - cabins on the port side of passenger 
ships from Europe out to the East would be more comfortable (pre-
dating air conditioning) than the starboard ones and would actually 
cost more although the fixtures and fittings were identical.   On the 
way home the opposite was supposed to be true.  Only the upper middle 
class (wealth from trade and all that) and the aristocracy could 
afford to be that choosy.

Personally I've never managed to sort out the particular mixture of 
prevailing weather conditions, sunshine etc. etc. that would make 
this a more reasonable explanation than the one suggesting the word 
is a contraction of 'polish' - polished manners, polished English 
accents and grammar.

Not to be confused with 'snooty' however - one can be posh without 
being snooty. (Nose up in the air and not taking any notice of the 
lesser mortals round you.)

Pam





From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Nov 19 18:47:30 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:47:30 -0000
Subject: Portkeys
In-Reply-To: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED61@lincoln.starchoice.com>
Message-ID: <8v9782+6j9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5898

> But when Cedric and Harry touch the cup in the maze, and get
> whisked away to Voldy and Wormtail - how could that have worked if 
> portkeys can only be used at certain times? Did Moody/Barty Jr 
> control the events in the maze so that Harry reached the cup at the 
> right time?
> 
> Angela

I wondered about this at first too, but I finally think that I've 
figured out a very reasonable explanation:

The people running the World Cup made a big deal out of spacing 
arrivals out so that everyone would not appear at the same time.  
Consequently, they made a special effort to set up the port keys to 
activate at known times and intervals. It might not be necessary for 
all portkeys to operate in this fasion.

At the Triwizard Tournament it was sufficient to make the portkey 
active as soon as the event started, so that all the winner needed to 
do was touch it.  "Moody" was in charge of placing the cup at the 
finish, so he had the opportunity to change its destination to Lord 
V's family plot. 

One final quibble:  The "ghosts" that came out of V's wand told Harry 
that touching the cup a second time would take him back to Hogwarts.  
I'm not sure how they knew that it would take him back. I guess it's 
just one of those wizard things.

-Jim Flanagan




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Nov 19 20:15:15 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:15:15 -0000
Subject: Poshness; Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED61@lincoln.starchoice.com>
Message-ID: <8v9ccj+q069@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5899

I guess that as an American, I was unprepared for Ian Hart's comment 
about the other cast members being "posh."  Perhaps as a result of 
our civil rights movement, it's somewhat unfashionable over here to 
make public comments that are class-aware. I can't imagine Billy Bob 
Thornton making a comment about how "posh" or upper-class his co-
stars might be. Over here, a journeyman actor might say how in awe he 
was of working with the likes of Harris and Smith, but his admiration 
would be on the basis of their accomplishments, not their social 
class.

Thinking back on some of the material in Rowling's books, I'm 
wondering if I might not have missed some points that British readers 
picked up on. For example, making Justin, the kid who was "down for 
Eton," a Hufflepuff. Was this a classist put-down, like M. 
Python's "Upper-class Twit of the Year" sketch?  

Lucius Malfoy is a puzzle to me:  If he is so class-conscious why 
would he associate himself with lunkheads like Crabbe and Goyle, and 
with McNair, who would be working in a slaughterhouse if he hadn't 
been born a wizard? Why also would Malfoy participate in adolescent 
behavior like tossing the muggle family around at the World Cup? 
Maybe he's just a psychopath, no matter his social class.

<End of free association on "poshness.">

-Jim Flanagan






From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 19 20:56:01 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:56:01 -0000
Subject: Translation from English to American, Please?
In-Reply-To: <8v951m+su8u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v9ep1+oonr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5900

Actually it has more to do with the views one had, and it was 
primarily the Mediterranean cruises and the views of the Greek 
Isles vs. the ocean, or the Pyramids vs. the desert. A POSH cabin 
would have great views both outbound and home, hence Port 
out, Starboard home. If you are interested the History Channel 
had a great special on it called, Great Ships: Ocean Liners and 
you can buy the tapes at historychannel.com.

Dave




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 19 21:57:26 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:57:26 -0000
Subject: hi . . .  a bit late.
Message-ID: <8v9ic6+ilo9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5901

Hi,

     Perhaps I am a bit late in introducing myself.  I realized it 
must have been a bit rude to throw in some posts before ever 
introducing myself.  My name is Odile Alburquerqure, and I live in 
Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.  I am 21 years old, and I am 
currently studying Communications (mostly Advertising). Hope to 
graduate in April. 
     
     I bought my first Harry Potter book (Harry Potter and the 
Sorcerer's Stone) in April, at an airport in New York, while
waiting 
for my connecting flight to DC (I'd never heard of Harry 
potter). To 
be honest, I bought it because it had an interesting  cover (I've 
never bought for it's cover before).  When I met my friend in DC,
she 
thought I was crazy, buying what was obviously  a "kid's"
book. I  
ame back home, and it sat on my shelf for 3  months, while I 
devoured  all the other books I'd bought (I like to  read, I want
to 
be an editor).  Anyways, I had told a friend of mine  that I bought  
the book, and he told me that it was really famous.  Surprise  
surprise.  I lent the book (I still hadn't read it) to  another  
friend, and she loved it.  Her exact words were "I'm a bit 
ashamed 
to say that I really enjoyed a kid's book." Just so you
understand, 
she studies Biology/Sociology/Environmental Science at  Wesleyan.  
So, encouraged, I read it. Then, I was having what I like to 
all `Harry Withdrawal'.  I loved the book so much that I need
to 
read the other ones, and I was sure that it wasn't sold here
(there 
was only one bookshop here that sold books in English). Until one of 
my friends told me they did, at this new bookshop. I went, and they  
were horribly overpriced, but I bought the second one. Then the  
third, and finally, the fourth. That was in August. Now, it's  
November, and I have to wait two years until JK Rowling publishes  
book 5.  

     So anyways, after I finished reading all the books, I looked up 
everything I could find on the net about Harry Potter: sites,  
reviews, collectibles (I haven't bought any), clubs, anything.  I
 
found this one, and I really like it.  I even go around, scouting  
people who are reading any of these books, anyone, anywhere, and  
encourage them, telling them how great the books are. 

    Just so you know, I've been reading them all again, because I
learned some time ago, that if you go back and reread the book after 
a while, you always learn new stuff. 

                Anyways, that's me, Odile.  Bye.





From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 19 22:02:42 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:02:42 -0000
Subject: Hedwig/Dumbledore Theory
In-Reply-To: <8v52ft+p43f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8v9im2+q407@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5902

> I'm also wondering if Crookshanks could be more than a cat. Sorry I 
> didn't read earlier posts on this matter if any. He's a tad too 
smart 
> to be an ordinary cat. 
> 
> Gen



 I agree with you.  I think Crookshanks could be more than just a 
cat, and i think that Sirius knows if he is anything more. well, him 
and JK Rowking, anyways.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Nov 19 22:51:07 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:51:07 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poshness/Malfoys
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001119225107.0091c5cc@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5903

At 20:15 11/19/2000 -0000, Jim Flanagan wrote:

>I guess that as an American, I was unprepared for Ian Hart's comment 
>about the other cast members being "posh."  Perhaps as a result of 
>our civil rights movement, it's somewhat unfashionable over here to 
>make public comments that are class-aware. 

***

I don't think Ian Hart was making a serious comment about class in that
interview; I read it as a jocular reference to the fact that he was joining
the company of mostly classical and plummy-voiced actors.  

Britain did have a rigid class sytem and that still exists to some extent,
but these days terms such as 'middle-class' and 'working-class' (which are
still used as shorthand) are not so much confining as defining.  People have
'working-class pride' and 'middle-class values' in an increasingly classless
society.  

The exception is the so-called upper classes and aristocracy, which remain
fairly insular, IMO.  They still talk of people being 'U' and 'non-U' and it
will be hard to get rid of that elitism until we ditch the monarchy.  I
think JKR - as a good socialist - makes a direct  and negative reference to
this thinking in the 'pure blood' vs 'mudblood' dialogues (cf: blue blood).
Obviously, there is a parallel with ideas on racial purity also, but the
overall effect is to paint a really ugly picture of the Malfoys. 

Neil (not posh)

PS - my dictionary suggests that the Port Out Starboard Home contraction
came later than a slang development of the word 'posh', meaning 'a dandy'
(therefore referring largely to sartorial style).

I know - enough on posh!!!

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Nov 20 00:47:22 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:47:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hi . . .  a bit late.
References: <8v9ic6+ilo9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A18749A.D9690BAB@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5904



Odile wrote:

> Hi,
>
>      Perhaps I am a bit late in introducing myself.  I realized it
> must have been a bit rude to throw in some posts before ever
> introducing myself.  My name is Odile Alburquerqure, and I live in
> Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.

Welcome to the group, Odile.  (And to any other recent joiners who are
lurking out there.)  Thanks for taking the time to introduce yourself.
We'll continue to look forward to your comments, and we're glad you've found
Harry Potter (and us).

Cheers,
Peg




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 20 01:50:19 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:50:19 -0500
Subject: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
References: <3A177587.94460C42@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3A18835A.6083A558@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5905



Peg Kerr wrote:

> But in a world where good and evil have become confused,
> that is, if the prisoner has been wrongfully imprisoned, then hope
> whispers that when good is restored to its rightful place, justice will
> eventually set the prisoner free.

And if only the real world worked like this...but we're talking about the
Harry Potter stories here, not some of the cases I worked on back before I
became an intellectual property attorney, when I assisted in/was involved
with some interesting (and very high profile) criminal defense matters. And
in the HP universe, as Peg points out, justice is almost as rare as it is in
the real world.

One thing Peg didn't mention is a situation where a personal alteration of
the "justice" mandated by society puts the entire society at risk. I'm
speaking of Mr Crouch's giving in to his wife's wishes, and allowing her and
Barty to switch places with Polyjuice potion, thereby ending Barty's
sentence in Azkaban, and bringing him home. I had the impression from the
book Mr Crouch himself wasn't completely convinced of his son's guilt in the
torture of Neville's parents, and that's  both why he had the "show trial"
where his son was severely punished, and why he allowed the Polyjuice Switch
to occur - and in making that decision, and personally overturning the
court's sentence, he set in motion a chain of events which (a) led Bertha
Jorkins to Voldemort, (b) led Voldemort to the Crouch house, (c) led Mr
Crouch to Hogwarts in search of Dumbledore, which put him in the correct
place for his son to kill him, and (d) caused Harry to be portkeyed to the
Riddle gravesite, and allowed Lord Voldemort to be reborn.  Even though the
trial may've been unjust, the sentence to Barty was completely just, and had
it been followed, the wizarding world would not, as of the end of book 4, be
on the verge of conflagration (again).

> Of course, as Harry will learn, when good and evil collide, justice
> often isn't as easy as Uncle Vernon makes it out to be.

Which leads me to think of another Vigilante Justice scene in Book 3 - the
Shrieking Shack "trial" of Peter Pettigrew - Sirius and Remus are completely
prepared to take an action which could be seen in this way (and Harry's
assent to them killing Peter if he tried to escape is a perfect definition
of Imperfect Self Defense - the concept that, as a matter of law, you can
kill someone if you reaosnably believe that the person poses an imminent
threat to your life or the life of another, even if that belief as to
imminence or as to threat is NOT correct (not property, life) - because if
Peter had made an attempt to escape, then it would be reasonable to conclude
that Harry's life - and other lives - would be in danger (it's easy to not
remember that Wormtail *killed twelve muggles* for no reaosn, other than to
frame Sirius and escape the blame for what Voldemort did to Lily & James)
and Harry's life was in danger by wormtail's escape - but any imminence on
that night in Book 3 would've been incorrect, thus imperfect self
defense/defense of another)

> It is a sign of Rowling's skill that none of the trials that Harry sees
> in the Pensieve feel "right" although on the surface all seem to have
> reached the right result.  Bagman is shown mercy, Karkaroff, an admitted
> deatheater, agrees to help the wizarding community, providing helpful
> information, and the torturers of the Longbottoms are given a harsh
> sentence.

I am sure that Penny will also have some comments on this thread, but as a
lawyer, I was very interested in the "trial" scenes - given what we know
about how Sirius ended up at Azkaban (i.e. NO trial), it seems that the
rights of due process don't really exist in the Wizarding World - there's no
right to a trial (if there was, then sirius would've had one - and I'm
surprized he didn't for another reason - if the high-ups in the wizarding
world had REALLY believed he'd been the secret keeper, then they should've
felt that a trial would be cathartic for the population, the way that some
clearly did about the Lestrange/Crouch trial), there seem to be no
attorneys, and the system seems more predicated on hearing what the accused
has to say, than on what evidence can be presented. Although that might just
be in the Death Eater trials - and we only saw portions of 2 of those (the
Karkaroff thing wasn't really a trial - more like a parole hearing.

> We have hope, however, in the figure of Harry Potter.  Harry has the
> thirst to find out the true story, the assistance of Ron and Hermione
> (among others) in uncovering it, the courage to face it, and the
> patience to hear it all.

Peg says he has the thirst to find out....but we haven't seen him seeking
things out until they are more or less in his face - he didn't try to find
out what Draco was talking about when he said, in Book 3, that Harry should
want to find sirius himself, he doesn't read anything about his parents or
the rise of Voldemort, even though some of that might make him better
prepared to fight whatever is coming. He does have the assistance, the
courage and the patience - which will help make an impact - but I can't but
hope that he's going to learn a little next time before the last possible
minute, so he can digest what he has learned and use it in a more
levelheaded fashion.
'Course, I don't expect him to do that - the whole Learn At The Last Minute
thing adds so much good stuff to the suspense and excitement of the stories!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Nov 20 03:24:35 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 03:24:35 -0000
Subject: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
In-Reply-To: <3A18835A.6083A558@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8va5hj+1p8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5906

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Peg Kerr wrote:
> as a
> lawyer, I was very interested in the "trial" scenes - given what we know
> about how Sirius ended up at Azkaban (i.e. NO trial), it seems that the
> rights of due process don't really exist in the Wizarding World - there's no
> right to a trial (if there was, then sirius would've had one - and 
	
	Since both Ron and Hermione are shocked to learn that Sirius was 
sentenced without trial, I assumed there *is* a right to trial in the 
wizarding world. GOF(27) I suspect the Ministry declared a state of 
emergency and imposed the wizard equivalent of martial law. 
	Or it could be that Sirius and others were considered insane and 
therefor not competent to stand trial.
	Pippin, who is not a lawyer and could be talking complete nonsense 
here.





From kippesp at swbell.net  Mon Nov 20 04:25:56 2000
From: kippesp at swbell.net (smitster )
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 04:25:56 -0000
Subject: Neville's courage
Message-ID: <8va94k+oan3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5907

I know its more than a month off, but when the character discussion 
for Neville rolls around, there's one thing that I'd hate to get over 
looked.  I'm sure there are other examples, but I think Neville shows 
great courage in PoA in the chapter where Serius uses Neville's 
password list to break into Gryffindor castle.  Professor McGonagall 
asks who is responsible for the password list and Neville slowly but 
eventually raises his hand.  Not just when asked by a Professor not 
knowing of any punishment, but in front of everyone.  To me, that 
shows get maturity and courage.  I'm pretty sure that I could have 
never done THAT.  I bet I probably still couldn't!

Paul





From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Mon Nov 20 04:56:48 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 04:56:48 -0000
Subject: Neville's courage
In-Reply-To: <8va94k+oan3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vaaug+78bf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5908

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "smitster " <kippesp at s...> wrote:
> I know its more than a month off, but when the character discussion 
> for Neville rolls around, there's one thing that I'd hate to get 
over 
> looked.  I'm sure there are other examples, but I think Neville 
shows 
> great courage in PoA in the chapter where Serius uses Neville's 
> password list to break into Gryffindor castle.  Professor 
McGonagall 
> asks who is responsible for the password list and Neville slowly 
but 
> eventually raises his hand.  Not just when asked by a Professor not 
> knowing of any punishment, but in front of everyone.  To me, that 
> shows get maturity and courage.  I'm pretty sure that I could have 
> never done THAT.  I bet I probably still couldn't!
> 
> Paul

Agree with you. It's easy to write Neville off when he's portrayed as 
nervous and awkward, but he has shown courage, not just in PS/SS for 
which he was rewarded by Dumbledore. Remember the time he took on 
Crabbe and Goyle single handedly at a Quidditch match while Ron was 
wrestling Malfoy. I mean, those 2 cronies must look like bulldogs and 
be loads tougher and stronger than the dear boy but he had the guts 
to fight them and getting knocked out in the process. The Sorting Hat 
knows better anyway - he was put in Gryffindor. Not having loving 
parents to grow up with but a severe demanding granny instead must 
have had some impact on his confidence and esteem. I actually felt so 
sorry for the poor boy when I read about his parents being tortured 
to insanity and not being able to recognise him at all. What a way to 
grow up (sniff!)

Gen




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 20 05:18:19 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:18:19 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: 7 Heavenly Virtues: Justice 
In-Reply-To: <3A177587.94460C42@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8vac6r+f1ch@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5909

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> This sense that some things that are fair and some that are not--a
> sense of justice, in other words--is a natural stage in children, 
> according to theologian C.S. Lewis. 

I personally believe that children learn the CONCEPT of justice, of 
fairness, as well as the details of what is fair, from the adults who 
raise them. Rather than being inborn. That would explain why 
different people, especially in different cultures and/or historical 
periods, have such totally different ideas of what outcome would be 
fair. What do the people who have personally raised children think?

> If I had known when I first read PoA what I have since learned
> through the process of writing these essays, I would have
> instantly realized that Sirius Black had to be innocent, simply 
> from the fact that Dursleys, our examples throughout the books of
> moral antimatter, were convinced that he was guilty:

That only works because JKR is writing archetypes (as I said in 
today's chat, she is writing archetypes, which all too easily turn 
into stereotypes in the hands of a less able writer), so the Dursleys 
can be the archetype of 'moral antimatter'. In real life, even very 
evil people (e.g. people who disagree with me about major political 
issues) can't reliably be wrong all the time unless they have studied 
the issues. When they speak off the top of their heads, they might be 
right accidentally once in a while. 

I admit that occasionally when deciding to vote for or against a 
Proposition, I am reduced to looking at WHO signed the arguments for 
and against that are published in the ballot pamphlet. In fact, in 
this latest election, there was one run-off for an open municipal 
judgeship, and my trusted paper didn't endorse in that race, so I 
voted against the guy who was endorsed by groups which I consider to 
be the same as the American Nazi Party, even tho' the other 
candidate's endorsers included groups I consider feeble-minded.

Altho' it is relevant here to repeat that Tim announced to me that 
Sirius Black is a good guy as soon as he reached the part where Harry 
learns that wizards as well as Muggles are hunting him. Tim said, not 
that the Dursleys are moral anti-matter, but that JKR wouldn't go to 
such length to establish the idea that he is a villain unless she was 
preparing to astonish the reader by revealing that he is a good guy. 
I don't know how that bit of familiarity with the author's habits 
relates to the theme of moral development. (I feel sure that if CSL 
were alive and replying to this reply, he would mention familiarity 
with The Author's habits.)
 
> When Hagrid earnestly explains to Hermione that she's doing an 
> unkindness to the house elves by trying to agitate about their
> working conditions, because it's in their nature to look after
> humans (Chapter Sixteen),

Hermione was shocked by the cruelty with which Crouch treated Winky 
(altho', it turns out, Winky deserved it just as much as Aunt Marge 
did: it was Winky who talked Crouch into letting Jr attend the World 
Cup match and thus enabled him to escape and do all those bad things) 
and she would have been even more shocked if she had seen how evilly  
the evil Lucius treated Dobby. 

What she SHOULD have founded, to solve the problem bothering her 
without so much social rejection, was a Society for the Prevention of 
Cruelty to House Elves (rather than an Elvish Liberation Front). Like 
the Societies for preventing cruelty to children and animals, SPCHE 
would not expect its beneficiaries to stand up for their own rights 
or privileges, but that humans would enforce humane treatment by 
passing and enforcing laws among humans. (Lucius would stand trial 
and be fined or sentenced to community service or perhaps publically 
caned for abusing Dobby.)

As of the end of GoF, Hermione would still be outraged at the notion 
of SPCHE, telling me how insulting and demeaning it is to class the 
House Elves with children and animals instead of in the same category 
as adult humans who have standing in law to act for themselves. Can I 
cite her passion on the subject of slavery as a clue to the 
Afro-Caribbean ancestry that I believe she has?

> so I doubt that house elves will continue to be happily slaving for 
the Malfoy family at the end of book 7.

I have a feeling that private homes, even Malfoy Manor, have only one 
House Elf at a time, so once Dobby was freed, Malfoy Manor no longer 
has any House Elves.

> But it is clear at least that Rowling is interested in writing
> about situations where an unjust situation exists, but the culture
> has not quite yet recognized that injustice.

What I said. Up above, about people have such very different ideas of 
what is fair. 

> and, of course, assumes the identity of Alistar Moody as part
> of his scheme to deliver Harry to Voldemort.

ALASTOR. That's important, because Alastor is a real word (not 
merely the title of a poem by Shelley): it means an avenging 
spirit, the male equivalent of Nemesis. 

> Barty Crouch Jr seems to be merely a frightened innocent--but we
> don't know for sure, and the implication is that no one knows,
> because everyone is so angry at the crime that the true question of
> Barty Crouch, Jr.'s guilt or innocence is not being carefully
> examined.

Practical question: why didn't anyone check for his Dark Mark? He 
must have one, as he is one of the people with an assigned place in 
the circle. (At least, we are set up to believe at the end of GoF 
that he is the absentee 'loyally serving [V] at Hogwarts'.)

Metaphysical digressions: 1) He hates Death Eaters who walked free, 
because they denied their Lord (like Peter denied Christ three times 
before cockcrow -- either the Christian / Death Eater analogies are 
merely use of archetypes, or it is further dramatizing the evil of V 
by showing that it is blasphemous as well as merely murderous), but 
*he* denied his Lord at that trial. 

3) And, if the Lestranges, young Crouch, and the other man were 
trying to bring V back after he was overthrown by Harry, how could 
Sirius know much at all about it? Sirius's alleged crime was 
committed the day after V's overthrow, the conspirators' crime must 
have occured at least as late, Sirius was arrested at the scene, he 
would have been in Azkaban already by the time the conspirators were 
tried. 

3) It may have been unfair to convict Jr with the evidence presented 
and it may have been cruelly heartless of Crouch Sr to convict his 
own son -- but it was the correct thing to do. Being as how he was 
both guilty and a danger to the public. That is a question under 
Justice: what to do when the unjust action is the correct action?  





From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov 20 05:26:21 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:26:21 -0000
Subject: Neville's courage
In-Reply-To: <8vaaug+78bf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vaclt+bs42@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5910

Another minor example: he asks Hermione to the Yule Ball, then when 
she can't go, he asks Ginny. He must sense what people think of him, 
but he asks them. He gets a date before either Ron or Harry does, and 
more honorably than either one, in my view.

Gotta love the fluffy slippers, too. Don't think THAT takes courage 
for a 13 year old boy?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 20 05:39:11 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:39:11 -0000
Subject: Poshness; Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <8v9ccj+q069@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vaddv+h5q5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5911

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:

> Perhaps as a result of our civil rights movement, it's somewhat 
> unfashionable over here to make public comments that are 
> class-aware.

The USA had a public mythology ideology that we are a classless 
society (or at least an entirely middle-class society) before there 
was a civil rights movement. 

> For example, making Justin, the kid who was "down for Eton," a
> Hufflepuff. Was this a classist put-down, like M. Python's "Upper 
> -class Twit of the Year" sketch?  

We think alike: last week I posted that Justin Finch-Fletchly, the 
junior version of Monty Python's upper class twit, 's only function 
in the plot is to demonstrate that Muggle social class means nothing 
to wizards: at Hogwarts, he and Colin Creevey the milkman's son are 
equals.

But the wizarding folk have their own apparently rigid social class 
hierarchy, and making the only landed gentry in the book (the 
Malfoys) the biggest villains among living humans struck me as a 
nice example of 'vulgar Marxism'. If we really believe in not 
sterotyping or being prejudiced, we must allow for the possibility of 
some good guys among the gentry. Maybe even some good guys who look 
like stupid apes.

> Lucius Malfoy is a puzzle to me:  If he is so class-conscious why 
> would he associate himself with lunkheads like Crabbe and Goyle, 
> and with McNair,

Crabbe and Goyle, at least, are his henchmen rather than his friends. 
They are doubtless hereditary men-at-arms or vassals of the Malfoy 
family. Maybe MacNair is also a hereditary follower of  Malfoys, or 
maybe he and Lucius were just assigned to work together by V, and 
Lucius gritted his teeth and obeyed.

> Why also would Malfoy participate in adolescent behavior like
> tossing the muggle family around at the World Cup? 

He thought it was fun? 

At this time, Westerners think that thinking it is fun to torture 
people is mentally ill, but were our predecessors still attending 
public hangings as a fun entertainment by one hundred years ago = 
1900? If not, they must only recently have given it up. And bear- 
baiting, and Roman gladiatorial shows .... 





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 20 05:43:38 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:43:38 -0000
Subject: hi . . .  a bit late.
In-Reply-To: <8v9ic6+ilo9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vadma+21mp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5912

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Odile " <oalburquerque at h...> wrote:

>      Perhaps I am a bit late in introducing myself.  I realized it 
> must have been a bit rude to throw in some posts before ever 
> introducing myself. 

I don't believe that there is a rule that you must introduce 
yourself and I never thought you were rude for posting before 
introduction. However, I am glad you posted this introduction, 
because it is interesting.
 
> My name is Odile Alburquerqure, and I live in  Santo Domingo, 
> Dominican Republic. 

The language in Dominician Republic is Spanish, yes? Do they get 
Harry Potter books in Spanish available there? Just curious: I don't 
want one for myself.
 
> Until one of my friends told me they did, at this new bookshop. I 
> went, and they were horribly overpriced, but I bought the second 
> one. Then the third, and finally, the fourth.

Would amazon.com have saved you any money?





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov 20 05:51:03 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:51:03 -0000
Subject: Casting comments...
Message-ID: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5913

A bit more on recent casting rumours...

Going back to that quote from Ian Hart, it's interesting that, in the 
interview with him, he talks about playing Lord Voldemort rather than 
Quirrell (the role obviously being a double-header in the first 
story).  I wonder if this means he will portray Voldemort only in 
future films?

I see Jim has added a pic of Leslie Phillips to the images files.  
Phillips has been rumoured to playing the voice of The Sorting Hat -  
another inspired casting choice if it's true.  I'd say his voice is 
not unlike that of Jim Dale and these reminders of the "Carry On.." 
films make me think that Kenneth Williams would have been great fun
as the Sorting Hat.  He's dead, of course.

I've been trying to confirm the reports that Julie Walters is playing 
Molly Weasley.  Filmforce (which has been wrong before) seems pretty 
sure about it.  The only other evidence I have is the fact that she 
said she'd been invited to play the part... but that might have been 
their source too.

Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd 
completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.

Neil





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 20 05:59:58 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:59:58 -0000
Subject: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
In-Reply-To: <3A18835A.6083A558@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8vaeku+oasn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5914

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
replied to Peg Kerr's post:

> in the HP universe, as Peg points out, justice is almost as rare as
> it is in the real world.

Peg made the point that wizarding society was so angry at the crime 
on the Longbottoms that it didn't bother to find out whether Jr was 
guilty before convicting him. That is said to be a major source of 
gross injustice in the real world, too.

> and in making that decision, and personally overturning the
> court's sentence, he set in motion a chain of events which

led to his own death, as well as all the other bad things that 
happened. We have the trusted adult voice of Sirius and the voices of 
Ron and Hermione being shocked at a man who would send his own son to 
Azkaban, we have the idea that mercy and family feeling are both 
virtues, but mercy and family feeling that led Crouch to yield to 
his wife's desire to retrieve Jr was the cause of so much evil.

> in the Wizarding World - there's no right to a trial (snip)
> there seem to be no attorneys, and the system seems more predicated
> on hearing what the accused has to say, than on what evidence can 
> - and we only saw portions of 2 of those (snip)
 
I am convinced that those trials included a phase of presenting 
evidence before bringing the defendent in to speak for himself. The 
defendent not being allowed to hear the evidence against him was a 
shock to me as an American, and also pretty damn unfair for him to 
have to reply to (argue away) the evidence without having heard what 
it is. The defendent neither hearing the evidence nor having an 
attorney is a real Star Chamber or Stalinist show-trial set up, so I 
hope that normal defendents in normal trials have attorneys.





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 20 06:05:20 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:05:20 -0000
Subject: Poshness; Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <8vaddv+h5q5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vaev0+kko9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5915

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> 
wrote:
>Lucius Malfoy is a puzzle to me:  If he is so class-conscious why 
> > would he associate himself with lunkheads like Crabbe and Goyle, 
> > and with McNair,

Crabbe and Goyle could be wealthy, pure-blood, upper-class wizards 
and still be idiots.  In muggle society there are plenty of rich 
morons.  Just because someone is from the upper classes (of any kind 
of society) doesnt mean they are smart.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> At this time, Westerners think that thinking it is fun to torture 
> people is mentally ill, but were our predecessors still attending 
> public hangings as a fun entertainment by one hundred years ago = 
> 1900? If not, they must only recently have given it up. And bear- 
> baiting, and Roman gladiatorial shows ....

Less than 100 years ago in the U.S.  I heard someone on the radio 
recently who researches lynchings of black people in the U.S. South 
in the early part of the 20th century.  White people used to attend 
them with picnics, collect clothing and other possessions of the 
victims, and send postcards.  The guy I heard on the radio collects 
the postcards and has written a book about it.  And certainly torture 
is something that still goes on, unfortunately, in many parts of the 
world.  There is a Counseling Center somewhere in Canada that 
specializes in treatment of torture victims.  We hairless apes can be 
very, very nasty little animals.




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 20 06:10:32 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:10:32 -0000
Subject: Bonnie, oh BONNIE!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <8vaf8o+fiom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5916

Bonnie is supposed to do next weeks chapter summary.  Does anyone 
know where she is?  For that matter, does anyone know WHO she is?

Well, she must be someone who signed up in the old Yahoo days and 
subsequently disappeared.  Fortunately, we do have someone waiting in 
the wings, fingers poised over the keyboard, to take over.

SO, Bonnie.  If you and your summary are around, we expect to hear 
from you sometime tomorrow, otherwise your understudy will be sent 
onstage.

--Joywitch




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 20 06:13:36 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:13:36 -0000
Subject: Neville's courage
In-Reply-To: <8vaaug+78bf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vafeg+o31q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5917

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Gen " <gchua at s...> wrote:

> Agree with you. It's easy to write Neville off when he's portrayed 
> as nervous and awkward, but he has shown courage, (snip)

I agree with you and Paul on Neville's courage.

> Not having loving parents to grow up with but a severe demanding
> granny instead must have had some impact on his confidence and
> [self] esteem.

I think we know that his granny is severe and demanding, but we 
surely do not know that she is not loving. That she sent him a Howler 
is only what Molly did to Ron, and he was pleased that she sent him 
the Remembrall, and she sent his Hogsmeade permission slip straight 
to McGonagall, which indicates that she did not want him to be 
deprived of Hogsmeade outings just because of losing the permission 
slip. 

If the older generation e.g. Frank Longbottom and his wife, were 
raised by severe and demanding, altho' loving, [Victorian style] 
parents (obituaries of Dr. Spock the baby book man including readings 
from the baby books that existed before he wrote his. Quotes about 
the sickening sentimentality of parents who cuddle their babies, 
which even the most mawkish parent would not do if only he/she knew 
that he/she was softening up the child so that he/she would not be 
tough enough to endure the rigors of adult life, and that was post- 
Victorian), why did they come out competent and popular? 

> I actually felt so sorry for the poor boy when I read about his
> parents being tortured to insanity and not being able to recognise
> him at all.

It seems to me that magical mental illnesses (madness) don't work the 
same way as Muggle mental illnesses. I don't think there is a Muggle 
mental illness that resembles the madness suffered by Neville's 
parents in its cause and symptoms. Being tortured leads to Post 
Traumatic Stress Disorder which does not include on-going amnesia.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov 20 06:46:25 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:46:25 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bonnie, oh BONNIE!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001120064625.009208e8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5918

At 06:10 11/20/2000 -0000, Joywitch wrote:

>SO, Bonnie.  If you and your summary are around, we expect to hear 
>from you sometime tomorrow, otherwise your understudy will be sent 
>onstage.

According to message 3513, 14 October, one Bonnie Kretschmer started a
"Snape in love" thread.  She hasn't posted since and she is no longer listed
in the Members' section under the e-mail address she was using then.  

Methinks her Remembrall lies cold, Madame Joywitch. I suggest we engage the
reserve author now...

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From john at walton.to  Sun Nov 19 12:47:32 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:47:32 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7 Heavenly Virtues: Justice (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <3A177587.94460C42@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <B63D7C64.825C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5919

Wow, Peg. Fantastic essay!


> And yet, Rowling isn't entirely ridiculing the idea of house elf
> liberation: after all, it is Dumbledore who is Dobby's new employer, who
> tells Dobby that he can say and think whatever he likes.
> 
> My guess is that this storyline is still very nascent, and so we'll have
> to see what Rowling does with it in the future.  She once worked for
> Amnesty International, and has spoken in interviews about how that has
> affected her opinions, particularly about bigotry, so I doubt that house
> elves will continue to be happily slaving for the Malfoy family at the
> end of book 7.  Other than that, I cannot say for certain where this
> plot thread will lead.

Perhaps the house-elves will be part of the Order of the Phoenix -- like the
giants (and, I reckon, the centaurs). I have a sneaky suspicion that this is
where it's all heading.

> The trouble then lies in trying to determine beyond a reasonable doubt
> who committed these crimes (question 2), were they actually responsible
> for the crime (question 3) and if so, what should be done with them?
> (question 4)

Question 3 poses all sorts of moral conundra, especially in today's society.
Having just studied a bit of International Law, the natural law argument
would seem to come into place in the Voldemort years. (Natural law: the
theory that some actions [genocide, for example] are inherently wrong, and
anyone executing those actions should refuse orders to do so or suffer the
consequences. There can be no mitigating circumstances or "I was ordered to
gas those people". It's the Nuremburg thing, for those of you who're
familiar with that.)

It's interesting that many DEs *can* claim to have been under Voldemort's
spell, thus absolving themselves of responsibility. JKR uses this to make us
very suspicious of *anyone* who's been a DE -- including Snape, of course.

--John
=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"Families is when wings take dream." --George W. Bush

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Nov 20 10:13:57 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:13:57 -0000
Subject: Casting Molly
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEJFCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5920

Neil wrote: "I've been trying to confirm the reports that Julie Walters is
playing Molly Weasley.  Filmforce (which has been wrong before) seems pretty
sure about it.  The only other evidence I have is the fact that she said
she'd been invited to play the part... but that might have been their source
too."

The official Warner Brothers site has a list of the confirmed cast.
This say Julie Walters is playing Molly.

For more information go to:
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/cmp/newsflash-fr.html

Simon (aka Dr Branford)




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Nov 20 10:22:36 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:22:36 -0000
Subject: JKR earns more than the Queen
Message-ID: <8vau1c+765d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5921

The Sunday Times publishes an annual 'rich list' of the highest 
earners in the UK.  On this year's list, JK Rowling is the 35th 
highest earner and the highest earning woman.  The poor old Queen
only scraped in at 70th - shall we pass round the hat?

Here's the story:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001119/en/people-richlist_1.html

I know this knowledge will add to your enjoyment of the books ;)

Neil




From sungod at themail.com  Mon Nov 20 11:42:29 2000
From: sungod at themail.com (sungod at themail.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:42:29 -0000
Subject: Potter's Domain breaks the 100 page barrier
Message-ID: <8vb2n5+r6k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5922

Not only that but we have had over 10,000 visitors since the 
original Potter's Domain was launched just a few short months ago.

Come check us out at
http://pottersdomain.eqrealm.com




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Nov 20 12:26:01 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 20 Nov 2000 04:26:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's courage
Message-ID: <20001120122601.1854.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5923

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From john at walton.to  Mon Nov 20 13:14:46 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:14:46 +0000
Subject: (OT) Bizarre goings on in St Andrews
Message-ID: <B63ED30B.831C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5924

Hi all,

This has almost nothing to do with HP, but I thought I'd share because it's
amusing.

This weekend in St Andrews was "Raisin Weekend". This hallowed tradition
dates back to the time when first years (freshers) would give their "senior
man" or "senior woman" (aka the person who showed them round the university
and helped them settle in) a delightful bag of raisins. This was obviously a
necessary item back in the mists of time. The senior man would write out a
Latin receipt on some unwieldy item (a "Raisin Receipt") which the fresher
would carry around for the rest of the day. Any senior man/woman could also
make any fresher sing the Gaudeamus (St Andrews' student song) before noon.

Nowadays, however, students have a different way of using the humble grape,
and so the pound of raisins is usually about 750ml, liquid and contained in
a green bottle. "Academic Families" have also replaced the senior man/woman,
so you now have mothers and fathers. Another recent innovation is the mass
shaving foam fight in the main Quad, as well as costumes for the academic
children. (Did I mention that academic incest is verboten? Well, verboten
but widely practiced...)

Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I saw an entire academic family dressed
as the characters from HP today -- down to Harry's scar and glasses,
carrying Hedwig and a broomstick; Hermione with bushy bouffant hair, a
little light reading (several cardboard books) and Crookshanks; Ron with
sprayed ginger hair, a stuffed rat; and the academic parents as Dumbledore
and McGonagall. It was absolutely brilliant! Of course, the children headed
off for the foam fight and ended up absolutely covered, which rather wrecked
the costumes. I think someone took a picture of them, so I'll forward it
when developed.

Oh, and this year's most amusing Raisin Reciepts:

* A small boat
* A sofa
* A slide projector
* A fridge
* A drunk girl
* A bathtub
* A small car
* The sign from Tesco (supermarket)

Well, there we are. Hope that gave everyone a laugh.

=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

"Families is when wings take dream." --George W. Bush

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Nov 20 14:44:13 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:44:13 -0000
Subject: Justice/Child raising
In-Reply-To: <8va5hj+1p8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vbdbt+e397@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5925

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 	Since both Ron and Hermione are shocked to learn that Sirius 
was 
> sentenced without trial, I assumed there *is* a right to trial in 
the 
> wizarding world. GOF(27) I suspect the Ministry declared a state of 
> emergency and imposed the wizard equivalent of martial law. 

That would be a good possibility - it would allow them to jail people 
without trials - but they *did* give trials to others at the same 
time, and generally when martial law is lifted, those who were 
imprisoned without trials are then  given the trials that they "lost" 
the right to in the first round, and that doesn't sound like what 
happened to sirius. 

> 	Or it could be that Sirius and others were considered insane 
and 
> therefor not competent to stand trial.

But if you're found to be insane, then (at least in the US, which is 
based on teh same standard of insanity as the UK (stems from a UK 
case where some guy tried to kill the prime minister about 100 years 
ago)) you go to a mental institution, not to prison (like luicus in 
cassandra's fanfic Draco Sinister). 

>	Pippin, who is not a lawyer and could be talking complete 
nonsense here.

not a bit! 

Rita wrote:

> If the older generation e.g. Frank Longbottom and
> his wife, were 
> raised by severe and demanding, altho' loving,
> [Victorian style] 
> parents (obituaries of Dr. Spock the baby book man
> including readings 
> from the baby books that existed before he wrote
> his. Quotes about 
> the sickening sentimentality of parents who cuddle
> their babies, 
> which even the most mawkish parent would not do if
> only he/she knew 
> that he/she was softening up the child so that
> he/she would not be 
> tough enough to endure the rigors of adult life, and
> that was post- 
> Victorian), why did they come out competent and
> popular? 

I've got a book written by a woman named Christina Hardeyment called 
Dream Babies, which summarises child raising books and philosophies 
from the 1600's through 1980(!) (it's at home, not here so I am just 
summarizing from memory) - and things really did go in cycles. At 
some times, it was considered bad (especially among the upper 
classes) to show affection for children, to rock them to sleep, to 
cuddle them or praise them (apart from a little praise allowed for 
things like sports) - and this resulted in children who had a lack of 
what psychologists call "affect" - in other words, dampened emotions 
and feelings, and a hard time relating to other people (possible 
example in the books, Draco, of course) - but at other times, mothers 
were criticised if the babe wasn;t in someone's arms all the time 
(either the mother's or a nurse's) and it was important for the child 
to be praised and coddled and swaddled and kept in rooms with wide 
open windows that he could ride his rocking horse in front of, but 
the children started learning to read and such at the age of 3, and 
were expected to read things like Shakespeare at age 7 or 8 (of 
course, this could be another possible explanation for Malfoy's 
personality, isn't it?). 
One of the things she really tried to show in her book is that 
strictness in things like manners, deportment and learning does NOT 
mean a lack of affection showed by the parent to the child. Both of 
those attitudes can coexist. 




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 20 14:52:23 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:52:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 19
References: <22.de15836.2746fb8c@aol.com> <003201c05214$8379e040$fe8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <3A193AA7.48641809@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5926

Jinx wrote:

> OTOH, that comforting of Neville actually proves what a git Crouch Jr. is,
> if you think about it.

Well, I remember the phrase "It was the sort of thing Lupin would have done"
really stuck out to me on the first reading. JKR usually draws very clear
parallells and lets her readers draw their *own* conclusions; I recall thinking
that being told this in so many words was odd. It felt like manipulation. So I
figured there was something up with Moody, if she so clearly wanted us to be
sympathetic to him, although I was far from realizing what was *really* up.

And yes, in retrospect it shows how creepy Barty Jr. really is. A true Moonie,
totally devoted to one goal and completely uncaring what or who must be
destroyed or used to reach that goal. Ugh. His actions are perceived as good and
his core is bad; kind of an anti-Snape, whose actions are often cruel and whose
core and code has him allied with the good side.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 20 15:04:51 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:04:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...
References: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A193D93.31A2DBE8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5927

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

> Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd
> completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
> add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.

By the way, the only commentary from the press that I saw along with the
London Zoo mention, had them discussing dragons. Jeez. Do the reporters even
*read* the stuff they're supposed to be covering? Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the Zoo would be the scene with the boa constrictor, right? ARgh.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 20 15:12:35 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:12:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkeys
References: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED61@lincoln.starchoice.com>
Message-ID: <3A193F63.BA7A41D8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5928

On the portkey question, I had postulated in an older post that the spell
involves the specification of a trigger, which makes the portkey then perform
its function. We were first introduced to portkeys set for a time trigger; Barty
Jr. told us you could have them with touch triggers. Possibly there are other
types of trigger; I assume when casting the spell you include the type you want.

--Amanda

ABoyko at starchoice.com wrote:

> Hi, I'm also a newbie/lurker stepping out with a question ... my apologies
> if this has been asked before.
>
> In G0F, the group going to the Quidditch World Cup use a portkey that was
> set to take them at a certain time. From what I understand, portkeys are set
> to be used only at a certain time. Mr Weasley checks the time on his watch
> so that they know when they will be leaving. (I'm at work, don't have the
> book with me).
>
> But when Cedric and Harry touch the cup in the maze, and get whisked away to
> Voldy and Wormtail - how could that have worked if portkeys can only be used
> at certain times? Did Moody/Barty Jr control the events in the maze so that
> Harry reached the cup at the right time?
>
> Angela
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From karob_7 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 20 15:46:45 2000
From: karob_7 at yahoo.com (Karin )
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:46:45 -0000
Subject: Neville's courage
In-Reply-To: <8va94k+oan3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vbh15+bnko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5929

"smitster " wrote:
> I know its more than a month off, but when the character discussion 
> for Neville rolls around, there's one thing that I'd hate to get 
over 
> looked.  I'm sure there are other examples, but I think Neville 
shows 
> great courage in PoA in the chapter where Serius uses Neville's 
> password list to break into Gryffindor castle.  

I won't leave this out of Neville's character summary.  I was pretty 
impressed with the fact that Neville had the nerve to admit to that 
in front of everyone.  I think it shows maturity that he was willing 
to accept the consequences of what he had done.

Gen made the point that writing Neville off is easy because of the 
way he's usually portrayed.  I agree.  We see Neville from Harry's 
perspective, and Harry tends to write Neville off most of the time.  
I think, also, that Neville is more comfortable with being written 
off than being noticed--that is to say, he has grown up with the 
knowledge that his parents don't even know who he is, and his 
grandmother is a very intimidating person (whether she is loving or 
not--I agree with Rita that there is evidence that she is).  Neville 
seems to have grown up very unsure of himself and his abilities.  I 
think he probably thinks the best he can do is not to be noticed too 
much when he doesn't do well.  And yet I think he struggles against 
that mindset and fights his fears on a daily basis.  It just happens 
that people notice his failures more than his successes, and don't 
often see the struggle and effort behind both.

Voicelady, he's one of my favorites, too--and I really hope he does 
become a more integral part of the story in upcoming books.  I think 
he will.

There have been so many Neville discussions lately that I'm afraid 
the character summary is going to be quite long.  :)  

Karin




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 20 19:05:43 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:05:43 -0000
Subject: Poshness/Malfoys
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001119225107.0091c5cc@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8vbsm7+k6uu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5930

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> At 20:15 11/19/2000 -0000, Jim Flanagan wrote:
> Britain did have a rigid class sytem and that still exists to some 
extent,
> but these days terms such as 'middle-class' and 'working-class' 
(which are
> still used as shorthand) are not so much confining as defining.  
People have
> 'working-class pride' and 'middle-class values' in an increasingly 
classless
> society.  

For me as an American, the key to British class descriptions is that 
they do NOT use "working-" and "middle-class" interchangeably.

Most Americans sonsider ourselves "middle-class" unless we are;
a) resident in a cardboard box in an alley, or;
b) Bill Gates.






From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Mon Nov 20 16:38:56 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:38:56 -0000
Subject: Chicargo
Message-ID: <014d01c05331$40a17580$5c987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 5931

Hi all

I'm back from my very quick trip to the US... and I'm sorry, but I didn't
get chance to go to Marshall Fields North State Street store.

That's one of the problems with business trips, you never really know how
much time you will have in any particular location... I ran out of time in
Chicargo...  If anyone lives within travelling distance, please do visit the
store and take some photos for the group - I would love to have seen it.

Now to get down to reading all the messages.

Nick.




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov 20 21:05:14 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:05:14 -0000
Subject: Lexicon news
Message-ID: <8vc3ma+1s63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5932

Hey, gang...

I just thought I'd share a little excitement here. My site, the Harry 
Potter Lexicon, was a USAToday HOT SITE OF THE DAY last Thursday. You 
should have seen the hit count shoot up! I was pretty thrilled :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Nov 20 21:11:22 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 20 Nov 2000 13:11:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon news
Message-ID: <20001120211122.5940.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5933

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From john at walton.to  Mon Nov 20 22:53:10 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:53:10 +0000
Subject: (OT) Beta reader call!
Message-ID: <B63F5BD6.836A%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5934

Hi all,

Apologies to those who are on both the PoU and HPFGU lists, who'll be
receiving one each :)

I'm looking for some extra beta-readers who are good at criticising Mushy
Moments (tm) to look over Chapter 2 of "Harry Potter and the Song of Time".
It's my first Mushy Mo', so I really want to make sure it's good before
posting it up. If you want to read the previous two chapters (Ch. 1 and the
Prologue), the link's in the sig.

Oh, and it's H/H, in case you were wondering. ::watches Penny to chalk
another mark on the wall beside her computer::

--John (Crazy I)

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1
0323

Novel of the moment: "Winter's Heart": Robert Jordan.
What I'm humming: "We Shall Overcome": Trad.

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From editor at texas.net  Mon Nov 20 23:40:44 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:40:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon news
References: <8vc3ma+1s63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A19B67C.35392234@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5935

Many congratulations! You deserve every bit!

--Amanda

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> Hey, gang...
>
> I just thought I'd share a little excitement here. My site, the Harry
> Potter Lexicon, was a USAToday HOT SITE OF THE DAY last Thursday. You
> should have seen the hit count shoot up! I was pretty thrilled :)
>
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Tue Nov 21 00:16:06 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:16:06 EST
Subject: Harry Potter Names...
Message-ID: <8.c6cab0b.274b18c6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5936

Odile said:

> I thought some of you might find this interesting, its a sight 
> discussing some of the names from the characters...
> 
> http://momsonline.oxygen.com/pregnant/hybrid.asp?key=BN001001

If you're interested in the meanings of the names of HP characters, I have a 
much more complete version on my website, "What's In a Name". The address is:

http://www.geocities.com/cornishpixie7/harryp/

Ellie Rosenthal




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Nov 21 00:38:13 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:38:13 -0000
Subject: Congrats to Steve; Beta-Reader for John
Message-ID: <8vcg5l+p5s2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5937

Hi everyone --

Congrats to Steve for his mention in USA Today!  Your site is 
fantastic & definitely deserving of the recognition.  

John -- Yay!!  Another H/H person.  I will be happy to beta-read your 
chapter for you.  I'm out of town visiting my parents for the 
holiday, and I'm not sure what wp program you use.  Email me off-list 
and we can talk.  

Many thanks to Joywitch also -- I'm glad to see that chapter 
discussions are moving forward.  

Penny




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 01:30:08 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 01:30:08 -0000
Subject: hi . . .  a bit late.
In-Reply-To: <8vadma+21mp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vcj70+hl44@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5938

>  
> > My name is Odile Alburquerque, and I live in  Santo Domingo, 
> > Dominican Republic. 
> 
> The language in Dominician Republic is Spanish, yes? Do they get 
> Harry Potter books in Spanish available there? Just curious: I 
don't want one for myself.

I haven't seen any of the harry potter books in Spanish yet...but 
thats probably cuase i rarely go to other books stores.

>  
> > Until one of my friends told me they did, at this new bookshop. I 
> > went, and they were horribly overpriced, but I bought the second 
> > one. Then the third, and finally, the fourth.
> 
> Would amazon.com have saved you any money?

The currency here is a bit different from the US dollar.   One peso 
here is 17 to 1 dollar.  Book 4 was about 38 dollars here.  if i 
ordered it from amazon, i'd still have to pay for the delivery (also  
overpriced, those bloodsuckers).




From donnadr at gte.net  Tue Nov 21 01:59:28 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:59:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon news
References: <8vc3ma+1s63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005601c0535e$af985080$d862143f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 5939

I simply love the Lexicon...congratulations.  I've sent the url to many
Potter fans I know...

Donna Rae


----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Vander Ark
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 4:05 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon news


Hey, gang...

I just thought I'd share a little excitement here. My site, the Harry
Potter Lexicon, was a USAToday HOT SITE OF THE DAY last Thursday. You
should have seen the hit count shoot up! I was pretty thrilled :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


eGroups Sponsor


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 03:03:27 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:03:27 -0600
Subject: Collectors' Stones???
Message-ID: <002401c05367$a12ea720$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5940

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/44885470
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 03:04:54 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:04:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...
References: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com> <3A193D93.31A2DBE8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003101c05367$d48385a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5941

Amanda, couldn't the zoo be both the Boa and the dragon?  (Aka Hagrid's lil
Norbert!) :)

Missed you guys yesterday!  Haven't waded through the 519 emails in the main
box; thank goodness I redirected the HP posts to this file (that's much much
smaller!)

:)>

Dee

--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...


> Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
>
> > Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd
> > completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
> > add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.
>
> By the way, the only commentary from the press that I saw along with the
> London Zoo mention, had them discussing dragons. Jeez. Do the reporters
even
> *read* the stuff they're supposed to be covering? Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but the Zoo would be the scene with the boa constrictor, right? ARgh.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 03:05:00 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:05:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...
References: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com> <3A193D93.31A2DBE8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <004201c05367$ef9f3820$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5942

Amanda, couldn't the zoo be both the Boa and the dragon?  (Aka Hagrid's lil
Norbert!) :)

Missed you guys yesterday!  Haven't waded through the 519 emails in the main
box; thank goodness I redirected the HP posts to this file (that's much much
smaller!)

:)>

Dee

--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...


> Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
>
> > Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd
> > completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
> > add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.
>
> By the way, the only commentary from the press that I saw along with the
> London Zoo mention, had them discussing dragons. Jeez. Do the reporters
even
> *read* the stuff they're supposed to be covering? Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but the Zoo would be the scene with the boa constrictor, right? ARgh.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 03:05:06 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:05:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...
References: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com> <3A193D93.31A2DBE8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <004301c05367$efc9f1a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5943

Amanda, couldn't the zoo be both the Boa and the dragon?  (Aka Hagrid's lil
Norbert!) :)

Missed you guys yesterday!  Haven't waded through the 519 emails in the main
box; thank goodness I redirected the HP posts to this file (that's much much
smaller!)

:)>

Dee

--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Casting comments...


> Flying Ford Anglia wrote:
>
> > Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd
> > completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
> > add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.
>
> By the way, the only commentary from the press that I saw along with the
> London Zoo mention, had them discussing dragons. Jeez. Do the reporters
even
> *read* the stuff they're supposed to be covering? Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but the Zoo would be the scene with the boa constrictor, right? ARgh.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 17 01:04:58 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:04:58 -0600
Subject: Readers' Digest
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEGNCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <008301c05032$76608dc0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5944

Wondered if anyone else has seen the copy of Reader's Digest (or
www.readersdigest.com) that has an article in it about JKR?  My friend
called me tonite to let me know about it, since she knew I am a total HP
nut.  (See, others can tell when you're addicted!)

I haven't visited the site yet, but plan to when my movie's done--had to
write this up while it was fresh!

Supposedly there's a wonderful, smoky pic of her in the article.

If anyone sees the real thing (paper) let us know!  :)

Dee



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov 21 03:24:59 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:24:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Collectors' Stones???
References: <002401c05367$a12ea720$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A19EB0B.3C01925A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5945

I'm getting old. I looked at these things and all I can think is "choking hazard"....

--Amandamom

Denise Rohleder wrote:

> http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/44885470
> --------------------------------
>
> :)
>
> "Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"
>
> Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov 21 03:26:17 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:26:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] At the zoo
References: <8vae47+nt8k@eGroups.com> <3A193D93.31A2DBE8@texas.net> <003101c05367$d48385a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3A19EB59.D3B9FBFD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5946

Denise Rohleder wrote:

> Amanda, couldn't the zoo be both the Boa and the dragon?  (Aka Hagrid's lil
> Norbert!) :)

I thought about that, but any way you slice it Norbert will be hatched in a
special effects lab. A zoo isn't much help for honest-to-Buddha dragons. It's
gotta be just the boa constrictor scene.

--Amanda




From kathleen at carr.org  Mon Nov 20 21:11:02 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:11:02 -0500
Subject: FWD: HP class at Barnes & Noble University
Message-ID: <200011210400.eAL40AU14479@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 5947

>===== Original Message From "Barnes & Noble.com" 
<BNcom_University at email.bn.com> =====
Greetings B&N University Students,

We've got a brand new round of FREE online courses now open for
enrollment at Barnes & Noble University. With eight expanded
campuses and a huge selection of all-new classes you're sure to
find the perfect course for you. New classes start December 4th
-- visit Barnes & Noble University today to enroll.
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eDEA0B4zGu01B0C2zw

New Course Highlights

Wild about Harry? Now you can share the magic of the bestselling
Harry Potter series with your kids and increase their reading
comprehension with TEACHING CHILDREN LITERATURE USING
HARRY POTTER.


-----------------------------------

I almost signed up for this...then read the course description and found that 
that awful Schafer book was one of the texts.  Um, I think not.


Kathy




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue Nov 21 04:06:02 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:06:02 -0000
Subject: Book Covers Have Moved
Message-ID: <8vcsba+lv4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5948

The book cover collection has been moved to HPforGrownUps-Graphics.  
There is an HTML file containing a link to the new group at the top 
of the Files area.

-Jim Flanagan




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov 21 06:15:28 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:15:28 -0000
Subject: At the zoo
In-Reply-To: <3A19EB59.D3B9FBFD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8vd3u0+46hc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5949

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Denise Rohleder wrote:
> 
> > Amanda, couldn't the zoo be both the Boa and the dragon?  (Aka 
Hagrid's lil
> > Norbert!) :)
> 
> I thought about that, but any way you slice it Norbert will be 
hatched in a
> special effects lab. A zoo isn't much help for honest-to-Buddha 
dragons. It's
> gotta be just the boa constrictor scene.
> 

Didnt they claim they were shooting the Komodo dragons (which are 
these bizarre little lizards) to blow up for the dragon scenes?  
Although, I think Amanda is right and that the reporters didnt know 
what they were talking about.  Reporters always get the details wrong.

--Joywitch




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Tue Nov 21 06:44:01 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 06:44:01 -0000
Subject: At the zoo
In-Reply-To: <8vd3u0+46hc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vd5jh+srv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5950

"Didnt they claim they were shooting the Komodo dragons 
(which are these bizarre little lizards)". 

Bizarre little lizards? odd way to refer to a lizard that dines on 
deer! fully grown deer at that.

Dave




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov 21 15:04:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:04:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: At the zoo
References: <8vd5jh+srv2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A8EF3.DE0CCA95@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5951

eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:

> "Didnt they claim they were shooting the Komodo dragons
> (which are these bizarre little lizards)".
>
> Bizarre little lizards? odd way to refer to a lizard that dines on
> deer! fully grown deer at that.

Yeah, Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world. Besides
full-grown goats and each other, they occasionally take people on their
native island, if said people are out of their little houses-on-stilts after
dark. But they aren't really draconic in appearance, no frills or ridges or
anything--just big lizards, six to nine feet long. Besides, working with
them is dangerous, because while they are not technically venomous, they
have a huge range of bacteria in their saliva, and any bite from a Komodo
dragon is almost certain to become nastily infected (at least the wild ones;
don't know about the zoo kind. Perhaps if they limit the decaying meat they
eat, it won't be as bad). It's gotta just be the boa constrictor scene. I
agree, reporters are goobs, they probably just latched onto the word
"dragon" and ran with it.

--Amanda




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov 21 17:42:21 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:42:21 -0000
Subject: FYI
Message-ID: <8vec5t+a7o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5952

I received this today from the Muggles for Harry Potter folks.  And I 
stand corrected, *bizarre little lizards* was not an appropriate way 
to describe Komodo dragons.  The *little* part, anyway; it sounds as 
if they ARE pretty bizarre. -- Joywitch

Volume 1, Number 9				November 20, 2000

		   MUGGLES FOR HARRY POTTER UPDATE

COUNTDOWN TO KIDSPEAK CONTINUES.  ORDER MUGGLES BUTTONS NOW OR NEVER!

	As we reported in the last Muggles Update, Muggles for Harry
Potter will become Kidspeak on Dec. 1.  The response to the 
announcement
has been encouraging.  While some Muggles are sorry that we are 
changing
our name, many more are excited that they will be part of the first 
Web
site dedicated to defending the First Amendment rights of kids.

	As we also reported, once Kidspeak is launched we will no
longer sell Muggles buttons.  If you have been thinking about placing
an order, act now.  We are already out of Muggles posters.

	 To order online, go to http://www.abffe.com.  This is the Web
site of the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression, one 
of
the sponsors of Muggles for Harry Potter.  Click on the "ABFFE Store"
button at the top of the page.  Then, click on "Muggles for Harry 
Potter"
link. You may also send a check made payable to "ABFFE."  The address 
is
ABFFE, 139 Fulton St., Suite 302, New York, NY 10038.  Individual
buttons are $3.50 each, including shipping and handling.  Bags of 100
may be ordered for $40, plus shipping and handling.  (ABFFE members 
may
order bags for $30 each.)
    

ABFFE OFFERS MUGGLES FOR HARRY POTTER T-SHIRT TO NEW MEMBERS

	ABFFE is offering a free Muggles for Harry Potter T-shirt to 
the
next 100 people who join the foundation.  The Muggles for Harry 
Potter 
shirt was created in June as a one-time promotional item for BookExpo
America, a publishing trade show. The shirts, which feature the same 
art
as the Muggles for Harry Potter button, were priced at $18 and quickly
sold out.  This is a one-time chance to own one of these collector's
items (Adult Large and X-Large only).

	In addition to the shirt, new ABFFE members receive a free 
2001
Banned Books Week Kit (a $35 value); a subscription to ABFFE Update, 
the
monthly ABFFE newsletter; the ABFFE handbook, "Censorship and First
Amendment Rights"; ABFFE's pamphlets on special free speech problems
like obscenity and hate speech; and the handsome ABFFE membership pin.

        ABFFE membership is $35 for individuals.        
          
        You can join ABFFE online using the ABFFE Store, 
www.abffe.com.
(If you join online, send an e-mail to tim at abffe.com telling us what
size shirt you want.)  You may also join by calling (212) 587-4025 or
sending a check to ABFFE, 139 Fulton St., Suite 302, New York, NY 
10038.





From Andrea_Malfoy at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 21 17:54:28 2000
From: Andrea_Malfoy at hotmail.com (Andrea_Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:54:28 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: At the zoo
References: <8vd5jh+srv2@eGroups.com> <3A1A8EF3.DE0CCA95@texas.net>
Message-ID: <OE30swFCHOzyfyz5b6K00000678@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5953

I have never in my life heard of a "Tame" Komodo Dragon, These are nasty
creatures, even the handlers at the zoo don't deal with them much.  We
recently had a group here where I live and we were told that when a Komodo
is moved it's put to sleep for the handlers safety if they were awake they
would attack their handlers because of their territorial instincts.  When
they are fed they open a trap door in the TOP of the exhibit and drop it
down also for the handlers safety.  A bite from a zoo or wild Komodo is a
guaranteed trip to the hospital with some nasty and I do mean nasty
reproductions.
~Andrea


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: At the zoo


> eliasberg at ioc.net wrote:
>
> > "Didnt they claim they were shooting the Komodo dragons
> > (which are these bizarre little lizards)".
> >
> > Bizarre little lizards? odd way to refer to a lizard that dines on
> > deer! fully grown deer at that.
>
> Yeah, Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world. Besides
> full-grown goats and each other, they occasionally take people on their
> native island, if said people are out of their little houses-on-stilts
after
> dark. But they aren't really draconic in appearance, no frills or ridges
or
> anything--just big lizards, six to nine feet long. Besides, working with
> them is dangerous, because while they are not technically venomous, they
> have a huge range of bacteria in their saliva, and any bite from a Komodo
> dragon is almost certain to become nastily infected (at least the wild
ones;
> don't know about the zoo kind. Perhaps if they limit the decaying meat
they
> eat, it won't be as bad). It's gotta just be the boa constrictor scene. I
> agree, reporters are goobs, they probably just latched onto the word
> "dragon" and ran with it.
>
> --Amanda
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>



From drielm at zonnet.nl  Tue Nov 21 19:59:22 2000
From: drielm at zonnet.nl (drielm)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:59:22 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT) Beta reader call!
Message-ID: <009701c053f5$8b61a8a0$65893b3e@marigina>

No: HPFGUIDX 5954

Hi John a.k.a. Crazy I,

I'd be honoured to be one of your beta readers! I am a 36-year old female
toddler from Holland, wildly in love with the HP wizarding world in general
and *both !!!* Sirius and Remus in particular. I am also crazy about well
written mushy fics. Be as mushy with me as you want, don't be shy!

*Oh my God! DID this really sound like an undecent proposal? I most
certainly hope so!*

Let me know, allright?

Greetings,

Maria
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: John Walton <john at walton.to>
Aan: hpforgrownups at egroups.com <hpforgrownups at egroups.com>;
paradigmofuncertainty at egroups.com <paradigmofuncertainty at egroups.com>
Datum: maandag 20 november 2000 23:53
Onderwerp: [HPforGrownups] (OT) Beta reader call!


>Hi all,
>
>Apologies to those who are on both the PoU and HPFGU lists, who'll be
>receiving one each :)
>
>I'm looking for some extra beta-readers who are good at criticising Mushy
>Moments (tm) to look over Chapter 2 of "Harry Potter and the Song of Time".
>It's my first Mushy Mo', so I really want to make sure it's good before
>posting it up. If you want to read the previous two chapters (Ch. 1 and the
>Prologue), the link's in the sig.
>
>Oh, and it's H/H, in case you were wondering. ::watches Penny to chalk
>another mark on the wall beside her computer::
>
>--John (Crazy I)
>
>******************************************
>Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to
>
>Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
>"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
>"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
>http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=
1
>0323
>
>Novel of the moment: "Winter's Heart": Robert Jordan.
>What I'm humming: "We Shall Overcome": Trad.
>
>Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
>******************************************
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 20:13:29 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:13:29 +0000
Subject: Casting... Peeves?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001121201329.00715198@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5955

One of the HP sites is claiming that comedian Rik Mayall has been cast as
Peeves and suggests that Verne Troyer might be playing Prof Flitwick.  IMO,
Mayall would be very well cast as Peeves, but I can't help thinking that
Verne Troyer isn't going to be in the film at all...  

http://harrypotter.eqrealm.com/news/112100a.html

There's nothing on the Verne Troyer and Rik Mayall fan pages I've found, but
there is a Warwick Davis fan site, which appears to confirm his involvement
(but what do fans know?)

http://warwick.lucasfan.net/harrypotter.html

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Nov 21 20:36:49 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:36:49 -0000
Subject: Casting... Peeves?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001121201329.00715198@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8vemd1+jgge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5956

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> One of the HP sites is claiming that comedian Rik Mayall has been 
cast as
> Peeves and suggests that Verne Troyer might be playing Prof 
Flitwick.  IMO,
> Mayall would be very well cast as Peeves

I'm thinking that the younger listies (especially those outside the 
UK) might not know who the completely insane Rik Mayall is - he was 
one of the 4 guys in The Young Ones - a VERY british comedy back in 
the 80s which was on Mtv in the middle of the night on Sundays. I 
think I watched it all through high school.
He also played the title character in Drop Dead Fred, which also 
starred Phoebe Cates - she played a slightly messed up young woman - 
and Drop Dead Fred was her "imaginary" friend from childhood, 
released from the Jack in teh Box in which her mother had imprisoned 
him - his role was VERY Peevesish. And do I remember him being on an 
episode or 2 of Blackadder?




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Nov 21 20:53:19 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:53:19 -0800
Subject: Dumbledore in Florida
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001121201329.00715198@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001121125111.00d93b30@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5957

I know a lot of people don't want politics on this list, but
I can't help asking if anyone else glued to CNN through
the Florida Recount has seen that Broward County Judge
who looks like Dumbledore?  (Complete with long white
beard and half-moon spectacles!)



                                                 -- Dave




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 21:36:59 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:36:59 +0000
Subject: Rik Mayall (was Casting... Peeves?)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001121213659.0071ca78@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5958

Heidi wrote:

>I'm thinking that the younger listies (especially those outside the 
>UK) might not know who the completely insane Rik Mayall is - he was 
>one of the 4 guys in The Young Ones - a VERY british comedy back in 
>the 80s which was on Mtv in the middle of the night on Sundays. I 
>think I watched it all through high school.
>He also played the title character in Drop Dead Fred, which also 
>starred Phoebe Cates - she played a slightly messed up young woman - 
>and Drop Dead Fred was her "imaginary" friend from childhood, 
>released from the Jack in teh Box in which her mother had imprisoned 
>him - his role was VERY Peevesish. And do I remember him being on an 
>episode or 2 of Blackadder?

Rik Mayall first came to notice on TV as part of The Comic Strip, a troupe
of alternative comedians who presented bizarre comedy playlets, which
launched most of them into mainstream careers.  Dawn French and Jennifer
Saunders were also part of the troupe (I guess people will have heard of
Jennifer Saunders through Absolutely Fabulous), as was Saunders' husband Ade
Edmondson and Nigel Planer (who played Vivian and Neil in The Young Ones),
and Robbie Coltrane made regular cameo appearances.  Mayall and Edmondson
did another childish sitcom (Bottom) and Mayall went on to play a corrupt
Tory (right-wing) MP in the sitcom The New Statesman.  As Heidi says, he did
pop in Blackadder as well.
     
Mind you, the Peeves thing is just a rumour :-)

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov 21 21:37:49 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:37:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rik Mayall (was Casting... Peeves?)
References: <1.5.4.32.20001121213659.0071ca78@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A1AEB2C.FD6D8239@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5959

Neil Ward wrote:

> Rik Mayall first came to notice on TV as part of The Comic Strip, a troupe
> of alternative comedians who presented bizarre comedy playlets, which
> launched most of them into mainstream careers.  Dawn French and Jennifer
> Saunders were also part of the troupe (I guess people will have heard of
> Jennifer Saunders through Absolutely Fabulous), as was Saunders' husband Ade
> Edmondson and Nigel Planer (who played Vivian and Neil in The Young Ones),
> and Robbie Coltrane made regular cameo appearances.  Mayall and Edmondson did
> another childish sitcom (Bottom) and Mayall went on to play a corrupt Tory
> (right-wing) MP in the sitcom The New Statesman.  As Heidi says, he did pop in
> Blackadder as well.

Wow. An entire, detailed posting of actors, none of whose name I have ever heard
before. Am I out of touch, or simply in Texas with no cable?

--Amanda




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 21 22:02:45 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:02:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Casting comments...
Message-ID: <20001121220245.17097.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5960

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

>> Didn't someone mention (or perhaps I read somewhere) that they'd
> completed filming the zoo scenes at London Zoo?  I guess we should
> add that to the London end of the HP tour, if that ever happens.<<

>By the way, the only commentary from the press that I saw along with the
London Zoo mention, had them discussing dragons. Jeez. Do the reporters even
*read* the stuff they're supposed to be covering? Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the Zoo would be the scene with the boa constrictor, right? ARgh.

--Amanda<

This is OT, but didn't they film some of The Omen at the London Zoo? You know,
where Damien is freaking out the baboons.

From,

Anake


=====
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http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Tue Nov 21 23:40:21 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:40:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
Message-ID: <20001121234021.6853.qmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5961

I spotted a comment some time ago, where somebody
(Rita Winston) mentioned Latvia as a likely location
for Durmstrang., and, as the location of the two known
schools of magic besides Hogwarts has intrigued me for
some time, I decided to break out my encyclopedia and
atlas, and I have some random thoughts.  I am no
expert on the things in question here, but it is a
start, and this can be improved upon by others more
knowledgeable in these fields.  I hope I am not too
unstructured and difficult to follow (it is midnight
here), as I am reopening a discussion at least 5000
messages old.

Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the
location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems
to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in
the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without
stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists).  I will assume it
to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to
Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic
Fairytale palaces).

Of Durmstrang we know as much that it must be quite a
distance to the North, in a region with lakes (I am
presuming Viktor Krum knows the difference between
lakes and fjords) AND mountains, and also with access
to the sea (I am presuming the ship is an oceangoing
ship).  This rules out all of Lithuania, Latvia and
Estonia, as these, between them, do not contain a
single peak higher than 318 metres (1043ft) - sorry,
Rita.  In fact, Latvia is no further North than
Scotland  it edges just North of the 58th Parallel,
and it is South of all of Norway (save Queen Maud Land
and the Bouvet Island in Antarctica, and the halfway
mythical Sjettnans Isle in the South Pacific). 
Formally speaking, it was also outside the Holy Roman
Empire of the German Nation, which stretched no
further North than the borders of Denmark (at least
according to my Atlas of History from school, but then
it labelled Yugoslavia as a NATO-member too...).
Denmark proper, being even flatter than the Baltic
states, is all out, the Faeroe Islands are to small,
and Greenland is too far out of the way for anyone to
bother going there.  

Finland has plenty with lakes, but no mountains except
in the extreme West and North, where there are few
lakes.  Norway all the way up to the Polar Circle has
plenty of both, and is plenty dark in the Winter. 
Sweden likewise has plenty of both along the 62nd
latitude all the way to the joint between Finland,
Norway and Sweden.  Unfortunately, the combination of
lakes and mountains is mostly found inland, a distance
away from the sea  only in Norway can it be found
near the sea, mainly on the Western coast between 62N
and 64N, and between 65N and 66N.  There is also a
location near Narvik, at ca. 68N.

Besides these, there is a further opportunity, even
further to the North:  Murmansk Oblatsk (I am not
certain if Oblatsk means county, shire, state or
something else), on the Kola Peninsula.  It is an
appropriately barren area, with a number of lakes, and
a number of proper mountains.  The need to be close to
the sea, seems to favour a location at the inner end
of the bay called Kandalakskaja Guba, in the White
Sea.

One could also look at this linguistically.  While
Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm
und Drang, a literary movement advocating the
abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German
relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. 
This suggests a closer connection to Russia and
Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a
later development.  To me, it doesn't not seem
immediately logical that Slavic students would accept
learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance,
when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to
justify one or more schools on their own 
particularly as see have the impression of a historic
form of antipathy between Slavic and German nations in
Europe (the Teutonic Order wasnt always nice guys,
even if Eisenstein overdid things a bit).  Both the
connection to Germany and the connection to the East,
reduce the probability of Norway being the location of
Durmstrang, as Norway at the time Hogwarts was founded
was primarily oriented towards England, Scotland and
the West, while Sweden was oriented towards the East
(essentially Russia was founded by Swedish Vikings)
and the South (Sweden had an extensive trade with the
Hansa-Bund).  If Scandinavian students are split
between the large academies, then it is more plausible
to me that the Norwegians end up at Hogwarts, with the
Swedes at Durmstrang, than all of Scandinavia being
under Durmstrang.  This is also because of the very
strong influence from Danes and Norwegians in the time
before William the Conqueror (just look at the
linguistic parallels  York-Jorvik, church/kirk-kirke,
husband-husbond, (hus-)wife-(hus-)viv, etc.)

In the region in question here (Northern Germany,
Scandinavia, Northern Russia West of the Ural
Mountains) there are four Language-groups: the
Finnish-Ugrian (sp?) group (Finnish, Estonian, Sami,
Hungarian), the Baltic-Slavic group (Lithuanian,
Russian, most East-European languages), the
North-Germanic languages (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish,
Icelandic) and West-Germanic (primarily German in this
context (but English belongs in this group too,
according to my source)).  I rather suspect that these
language-groups, rather than mixing and matching,
would each tend to itself, education-wise.

I would rather not see Durmstrang end up in
Scandinavia, due to a fanfic-project I have, which may
(or may not) lift off sometime before book V.  I have
presumed that Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have
a joint school somewhere (In Norway, in my case, as I
am Norwegian, and Norwegian folklore is the only one I
know much), as the Scandinavian languages are (and
have always been), very close.  This leaves for me
only the option of putting Durmstrang in Murmansk
Oblatsk, probably somewhere near the city of
Kandalaka, at the White Sea.  I am wondering whether
to include Finns and Estonians in this, only
Swedish-speaking Finns or no Finns or Estonians at all
(with, perhaps, a joint Finnish-Estonian-Hungarian
Institute (due to the languages being related), of
course founded by Ilmarinen and Vainaminen.) , as
Finland was very strongly tied to Sweden for
centuries.

I hope I did not get too boring (again, it is late,
with the attendant bad effects on my ability to
structure.  I have to do it at home, however, as that
is where I have all my books).

Regards

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Nov 21 23:16:22 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:16:22 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rik Mayall (it's OT really)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001121231622.00904e94@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5962

At 15:37 11/21/2000 -0600, Amanda wrote:

>Wow. An entire, detailed posting of actors, none of whose name I have ever
heard
>before. Am I out of touch, or simply in Texas with no cable?

***

I hope you were paying attention, Amanda - there will be a quiz at the end
of the week.

I imagine some of those shows would have been shown on US cable channels, if
anywhere, and some would certainly not have been exported to the US.  

So, you've never heard the name Robbie Coltrane before?  He's the one
playing Hagrid in the Harry Potter film...

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Nov 21 23:27:33 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:27:33 -0000
Subject: Justice / trials
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEKGCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 5963

Someone wrote: "Or it could be that Sirius and others were considered insane
and therefor not competent to stand trial."

Heidi wrote: "But if you're found to be insane, then (at least in the US,
which is based on teh same standard of insanity as the UK (stems from a UK
case where some guy tried to kill the prime minister about 100 years ago))
you go to a mental institution, not to prison (like luicus in cassandra's
fanfic Draco Sinister)."

You still get a trial in the UK in cases of insanity.
When you are asked how you plead, in response to the charges announced, you
would plead not guilty on ground of insanity (or something in that line).
Evidence is then presented to show whether or not this is the case and if it
is you are then found not guilty but sent off for psychiatric evaluation and
go to the appropriate mental institution.

Note that I am no way involved in the legal system and so the above is just
based on my knowledge of what goes on (in particular reference to the case
of the man accused of attempted murder of George Harrison (of the Beatles),
which had it trial about 200 metres from where I live last week, where this
insanity plead came up).

Simon





From john at walton.to  Tue Nov 21 23:54:01 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:54:01 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Justice / trials
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEKGCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <B640BB99.84B4%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5964

Simon at simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk wrote:

> You still get a trial in the UK in cases of insanity.
> When you are asked how you plead, in response to the charges announced, you
> would plead not guilty on ground of insanity (or something in that line).
> Evidence is then presented to show whether or not this is the case and if it
> is you are then found not guilty but sent off for psychiatric evaluation and
> go to the appropriate mental institution.
> 
> Note that I am no way involved in the legal system and so the above is just
> based on my knowledge of what goes on (in particular reference to the case
> of the man accused of attempted murder of George Harrison (of the Beatles),
> which had it trial about 200 metres from where I live last week, where this
> insanity plead came up).

See, I thought that George Harrison's attacker was not going to be tried for
attempted murder on grounds of his insanity -- but rather locked away for a
very long time under some obscure thingywhat. I think that's the way that
the UK courts get around it.

--John

=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

George Bush: Electile Dysfunction complicated by Premature Congratulations.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Nov 22 00:30:10 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:30:10 -0000
Subject: Casting... Peeves?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20001121201329.00715198@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8vf42i+qv8m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5965

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil wrote:
> One of the HP sites is claiming that comedian Rik Mayall has 
> been cast as Peeves and suggests that Verne Troyer might 
> be playing Prof Flitwick.  


Interestingly, Rik Mayall was already in our "Members' Suggestions" 
photo collection. (Do you think WB was listening?) Here he is:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownUps-
Graphics/Movie+Cast/Members%27+Suggestions/Mayall1.jpg

Be sure to copy the whole URL into your browser address window.  You 
can also go to the top page of the Graphics eGroup by following this 
URL:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/

-Jim Flanagan




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov 22 00:37:21 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:37:21 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <20001121234021.6853.qmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vf4g1+pk32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5966

Interestingly enough, I happened to read the latest issue of "The 
REaders Digest" with Rowling on the cover. In the article it 
identified Hogwarts location as Scotland. I don't know how accurate 
this is, but....

:-) Milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> 
wrote:
> I spotted a comment some time ago, where somebody
> (Rita Winston) mentioned Latvia as a likely location
> for Durmstrang., and, as the location of the two known
> schools of magic besides Hogwarts has intrigued me for
> some time, I decided to break out my encyclopedia and
> atlas, and I have some random thoughts.  I am no
> expert on the things in question here, but it is a
> start, and this can be improved upon by others more
> knowledgeable in these fields.  I hope I am not too
> unstructured and difficult to follow (it is midnight
> here), as I am reopening a discussion at least 5000
> messages old.
> 
> Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the
> location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems
> to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in
> the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without
> stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists).  I will assume it
> to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to
> Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic
> Fairytale palaces).
> 
> Of Durmstrang we know as much that it must be quite a
> distance to the North, in a region with lakes (I am
> presuming Viktor Krum knows the difference between
> lakes and fjords) AND mountains, and also with access
> to the sea (I am presuming the ship is an oceangoing
> ship).  This rules out all of Lithuania, Latvia and
> Estonia, as these, between them, do not contain a
> single peak higher than 318 metres (1043ft) - sorry,
> Rita.  In fact, Latvia is no further North than
> Scotland ? it edges just North of the 58th Parallel,
> and it is South of all of Norway (save Queen Maud Land
> and the Bouvet Island in Antarctica, and the halfway
> mythical Sjettnan's Isle in the South Pacific). 
> Formally speaking, it was also outside the Holy Roman
> Empire of the German Nation, which stretched no
> further North than the borders of Denmark (at least
> according to my Atlas of History from school, but then
> it labelled Yugoslavia as a NATO-member too...).
> Denmark proper, being even flatter than the Baltic
> states, is all out, the Faeroe Islands are to small,
> and Greenland is too far out of the way for anyone to
> bother going there.  
> 
> Finland has plenty with lakes, but no mountains except
> in the extreme West and North, where there are few
> lakes.  Norway all the way up to the Polar Circle has
> plenty of both, and is plenty dark in the Winter. 
> Sweden likewise has plenty of both along the 62nd
> latitude all the way to the joint between Finland,
> Norway and Sweden.  Unfortunately, the combination of
> lakes and mountains is mostly found inland, a distance
> away from the sea ? only in Norway can it be found
> near the sea, mainly on the Western coast between 62?N
> and 64?N, and between 65?N and 66?N.  There is also a
> location near Narvik, at ca. 68?N.
> 
> Besides these, there is a further opportunity, even
> further to the North:  Murmansk Oblatsk (I am not
> certain if `Oblatsk' means county, shire, state or
> something else), on the Kola Peninsula.  It is an
> appropriately barren area, with a number of lakes, and
> a number of proper mountains.  The need to be close to
> the sea, seems to favour a location at the inner end
> of the bay called Kandalak?skaja Guba, in the White
> Sea.
> 
> One could also look at this linguistically.  While
> Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm
> und Drang, a literary movement advocating the
> abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German
> relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. 
> This suggests a closer connection to Russia and
> Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a
> later development.  To me, it doesn't not seem
> immediately logical that Slavic students would accept
> learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance,
> when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to
> justify one or more schools on their own ?
> particularly as see have the impression of a historic
> form of antipathy between Slavic and German nations in
> Europe (the Teutonic Order wasn't always nice guys,
> even if Eisenstein overdid things a bit).  Both the
> connection to Germany and the connection to the East,
> reduce the probability of Norway being the location of
> Durmstrang, as Norway at the time Hogwarts was founded
> was primarily oriented towards England, Scotland and
> the West, while Sweden was oriented towards the East
> (essentially Russia was founded by Swedish Vikings)
> and the South (Sweden had an extensive trade with the
> Hansa-Bund).  If Scandinavian students are split
> between the large academies, then it is more plausible
> to me that the Norwegians end up at Hogwarts, with the
> Swedes at Durmstrang, than all of Scandinavia being
> under Durmstrang.  This is also because of the very
> strong influence from Danes and Norwegians in the time
> before William the Conqueror (just look at the
> linguistic parallels ? York-Jorvik, church/kirk-kirke,
> husband-husbond, (hus-)wife-(hus-)viv, etc.)
> 
> In the region in question here (Northern Germany,
> Scandinavia, Northern Russia West of the Ural
> Mountains) there are four Language-groups: the
> Finnish-Ugrian (sp?) group (Finnish, Estonian, Sami,
> Hungarian), the Baltic-Slavic group (Lithuanian,
> Russian, most East-European languages), the
> North-Germanic languages (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish,
> Icelandic) and West-Germanic (primarily German in this
> context (but English belongs in this group too,
> according to my source)).  I rather suspect that these
> language-groups, rather than mixing and matching,
> would each tend to itself, education-wise.
> 
> I would rather not see Durmstrang end up in
> Scandinavia, due to a fanfic-project I have, which may
> (or may not) lift off sometime before book V.  I have
> presumed that Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have
> a joint school somewhere (In Norway, in my case, as I
> am Norwegian, and Norwegian folklore is the only one I
> know much), as the Scandinavian languages are (and
> have always been), very close.  This leaves for me
> only the option of putting Durmstrang in Murmansk
> Oblatsk, probably somewhere near the city of
> Kandalak?a, at the White Sea.  I am wondering whether
> to include Finns and Estonians in this, only
> Swedish-speaking Finns or no Finns or Estonians at all
> (with, perhaps, a joint Finnish-Estonian-Hungarian
> Institute (due to the languages being related), of
> course founded by Ilmarinen and Vainam?inen.) , as
> Finland was very strongly tied to Sweden for
> centuries.
> 
> I hope I did not get too boring (again, it is late,
> with the attendant bad effects on my ability to
> structure.  I have to do it at home, however, as that
> is where I have all my books).
> 
> Regards
> 
> =====
> "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  
eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix 
thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
> ---------------------------------------------
> Christian Stub?
> Student of Technology, architectura navalis
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Del dine bilder med andre p? http://no.photos.yahoo.com




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Nov 22 02:02:10 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:02:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
References: <8va5hj+1p8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1B2922.37C58F0E@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5967



foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

>
>         Or it could be that Sirius and others were considered insane and
> therefor not competent to stand trial.

In order to be considered competent to stand trial in the US, one has to be
able to understand the charges that are being made against you and be able
to assist your attorney in your own defense.  There are a number of reasons
that one could be found incompetent to stand trial, but it usually has to do
with the presence of  serious mental disorder.

In such cases of competency, at least in the US, if one is found incompetent
to stand trial, that individual is usually committed to a secure facility
for treatment of his/her mental disease until they are recovered enough to
meet the aforementioned standards.


heidi tandy wrote:

> But if you're found to be insane, then (at least in the US, which is
> based on teh same standard of insanity as the UK (stems from a UK
> case where some guy tried to kill the prime minister about 100 years
> ago)) you go to a mental institution, not to prison (like luicus in
> cassandra's fanfic Draco Sinister).
>

That's the old M'Naughton rule: can be found not guilty by reason of
insanity if at the time of the offense, the individual did not appreciate
the wrongfulness of his actions ("I didn't know what I was doin'!").  That
used to be the standard in the US prior to the John Hinckley case (he's the
guy who tried to assasinate Ronald Reagan in 1981).   Because many believe
he got off too easy, the standard was subsequently changed.  It's now called
the American Law Institute Standard (ALI) and states that not only should
the person not be able to appreciate the wrongfulness of his actions but
also that he was unable to conform his behavior to the requirements of the
law.    It's this second piece that is very tricky to prove.

Anyhow, this is all a rather long winded way of saying it's not likely that
Sirius was thought to be insane, in the clinical sense.  It's more likley a
case of his being judged bad by Crouch, Sr. and then an added case of bad PR
as far as the general public is concerned (He's got to be crazy to be such a
cold blooded killer!)

drpam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 04:16:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:16:03 -0600
Subject: OT Chads please respond offlist?
Message-ID: <00a701c0543a$ef917ea0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5968

Hi.

I know, this is really off topic, but I know that there are some very smart folks here, hence my asking.... (See posts concerning the boxed up cat for examples!)

What are CHADS?  Why are they so important to the Florida thing?

I am just lost......

Dee
the born-blonde.
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 04:17:09 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:17:09 -0000
Subject: *delurk and imperius curse*
In-Reply-To: <001c01c051aa$da971b00$47c44b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8vfhc5+3pt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5969

> >
> > There's an interesting little one-sentence snippet in GoF(it's
> > possible that you've all brought this up before, but i haven't 
seen
> > it) where the Imperius curse is put on Harry by Voldemort: "And 
Harry
> > felt, for the third time in his life" the effects of the Imperius
> > curse. my question was--why the third? We know it happened once
> > before, with Moody (and it is mentioned that Moody put the curse 
on
> > him several more times, but presumably Harry is no longer so
> > susceptible to it after the first.) I just thought it was a bit
> > strange, and wondered if anyone had some opinions on it...or if
> > you've already gone over this several times.
> 

Response from CMC:
> See Chap. 33 (p. 652-53 of the American edition), where Voldemort is
> reminiscing over his murder of James and Lily - Voldemort tried to 
kill Harry,> presumably with a Kedrava curse.  But Lily provided 
Harry with an as-yet undescribed protection ("old magic" Voldy 
describes - presumably not "that old black magic" of the popular 
song) which deflected the curse back on him.
> The only effect Harry suffered was the scar on his forehead.
> 
>     - CMC


My comment: I must be missing something here. The first poster 
suggested that Harry was subjected to the Imperius curse "three" times
and wonders what the three times were....the response is about the 
Abracadabra curse --- something different...??

Susan




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov 22 04:20:03 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:20:03 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <8vf4g1+pk32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vfhhj+22pq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5970

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Interestingly enough, I happened to read the latest issue of "The 
> REaders Digest" with Rowling on the cover. In the article it 
> identified Hogwarts location as Scotland. I don't know how accurate 
> this is, but....

Hogwarts is in Scotland, yes. Durmstrang, however, is SOMEWHERE in 
northern continental Europe.


> > and also with access
> > to the sea (I am presuming the ship is an oceangoing
> > ship

Excellent analysis! I do question this particular assumption, 
however. I don't think the ship had to have access to the sea at all, 
judging by the way it arrived at Hogwarts. I think all it would have 
needed was access to a fairly good sized lake and it could have done 
a reverse whirlpool thing to get out into open water.

I have to say, I don't think JKR herself has the Durmstrang location 
figured out as well as you do! 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 05:13:06 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin M. Walsh)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:13:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP auf Deutsch
Message-ID: <20001122051306.6742.qmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5971

Dear friends, I have to do an oral presentation for my
German class and I decided to do mine on Harry Potter.
 Does anyone know of any good HP sites in German
(other than www.harrypotter.de)?  Your help will be
greatly appreciated!
Auf Wiedersehen,
Kaitlin

=====
Thought for the day:
"Slo temo a mis enemigos cuando emiezan a tener razn." ~Jacinto Benavente 
(Danke Frau Doktor Russell!)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 04:43:59 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:43:59 -0000
Subject: Poshness; Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <8v9ccj+q069@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vfiuf+4ngd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5972

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> I guess that as an American, I was unprepared for Ian Hart's 
comment 
> about the other cast members being "posh."  Perhaps as a result of 
> our civil rights movement, it's somewhat unfashionable over here to 
> make public comments that are class-aware.

I would suggest that there are still many who think the U.S.A. is 
a "classless" society -- not that there aren't poor people, but that 
anyone can make it if they work hard enough, that there aren't many 
distinctions among classes, etc. Many were astonished to learn that 
there is a quota system among Ivy League universities to allow a 
percentage of children of alumni to attend -- at the University of 
Michigan they boast that "only" half of those who attend are the 
children or grandchildren of physicians.

One of the interesting features of the film "Titanic" is that it 
actually addressed some of the class issues clearly. That's unusual.


 I can't imagine Billy Bob 
> Thornton making a comment about how "posh" or upper-class his co-
> stars might be. Over here, a journeyman actor might say how in awe 
he 
> was of working with the likes of Harris and Smith, but his 
admiration 
> would be on the basis of their accomplishments, not their social 
> class.
> 
> Thinking back on some of the material in Rowling's books, I'm 
> wondering if I might not have missed some points that British 
readers 
> picked up on. For example, making Justin, the kid who was "down for 
> Eton," a Hufflepuff. Was this a classist put-down, like M. 
> Python's "Upper-class Twit of the Year" sketch?  
> 
> Lucius Malfoy is a puzzle to me:  If he is so class-conscious why 
> would he associate himself with lunkheads like Crabbe and Goyle, 
and 
> with McNair, who would be working in a slaughterhouse if he hadn't 
> been born a wizard? Why also would Malfoy participate in adolescent 
> behavior like tossing the muggle family around at the World Cup? 
> Maybe he's just a psychopath, no matter his social class.
> 
> <End of free association on "poshness.">
> 
> -Jim Flanagan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 04:54:33 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:54:33 -0000
Subject: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
In-Reply-To: <3A18835A.6083A558@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8vfji9+hq2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5973

> 
> Which leads me to think of another Vigilante Justice scene in Book 
3 - the Shrieking Shack "trial" of Peter Pettigrew - Sirius and Remus 
are completely  prepared to take an action which could be seen in 
this way (and Harry's  assent to them killing Peter if he tried to 
escape is a perfect definition  of Imperfect Self Defense - the 
concept that, as a matter of law, you can  kill someone if you 
reaosnably believe that the person poses an imminent
> threat to your life or the life of another, even if that belief as 
to  imminence or as to threat is NOT correct (not property, life) - 
because if  Peter had made an attempt to escape, then it would be 
reasonable to conclude  that Harry's life - and other lives - would 
be in danger (it's easy to not  remember that Wormtail *killed twelve 
muggles* for no reaosn, other than to
> frame Sirius and escape the blame for what Voldemort did to Lily & 
James)
> and Harry's life was in danger by wormtail's escape - but any 
imminence on
> that night in Book 3 would've been incorrect, thus imperfect self
> defense/defense of another)
> 

of course there could be a different standard of self defense in the 
Wizard world...

I would suggest that we have a bias that justice can "only" be 
achieved through the courts, and that vigilante justice is by 
definition unjust.

My idea of courts is that the community sets laws and standards, and
then elects judges to determine guilt or innocence -- therefore 
enforcing community morality. 

However, justice could be meted out by an individual -- it might be 
illegal (might not) -- but it could still be justice.

I would suggest that the Wizard AND Muggle world might have been 
better off had Lupin and Black killed Peter Pettigrew. I think here 
there might be a conflict between the pagan and christian world view.
The christian world view says that vengeance is the lord's and 
therefore Lupin and Black would be sinning by killing Peter. The 
pagan world view suggests that a person is responsible for their 
actions. Lupin and Black could have therefore made the decision to 
kill Peter in the best interests of themselves, the Wizard world, and
as payback for Lily and James. Because they are both basically good 
people, they probably would have suffered for their action (remorse, 
regret, but they would have paid that price in order to rid the world 
of Peter. 

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 04:57:48 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:57:48 -0000
Subject: Justice/Child raising
In-Reply-To: <8vbdbt+e397@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vfjoc+i87l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5974

> One of the things she really tried to show in her book is that 
> strictness in things like manners, deportment and learning does NOT 
> mean a lack of affection showed by the parent to the child. Both of 
> those attitudes can coexist.

In fact, I would suggest that parents who truly love their children
will help them be courteous, behave well, and learn. That's a true 
gift, because few like the rude, ill-behaved and ignorant. Parents 
who truly love set limits even though it is sometimes very difficult
when one has truly glorious, luminous, and brilliant children

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 04:59:31 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:59:31 -0000
Subject: Justice/Child raising
In-Reply-To: <8vbdbt+e397@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vfjrj+i8f8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5975

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
> wrote:
> > 	Since both Ron and Hermione are shocked to learn that Sirius 
> was 
> > sentenced without trial, I assumed there *is* a right to trial in 
> the 
> > wizarding world. GOF(27) I suspect the Ministry declared a state 
of 
> > emergency and imposed the wizard equivalent of martial law. 
> 
> That would be a good possibility - it would allow them to jail 
people 
> without trials - but they *did* give trials to others at the same 
> time, and generally when martial law is lifted, those who were 
> imprisoned without trials are then  given the trials that 
they "lost" 
> the right to in the first round, and that doesn't sound like what 
> happened to sirius. 
> 

Sirius makes reference to Barty's reign at the MOM as essentially
martial law. He gave new powers to the Aurors, allowing them to kill
and allowed the unforgiveable curses to be used against the DEs.
He was in charge. He decided that Sirius would have no trial, but 
allowed his son, Ludo Bagman and the LeStranges a trial....

S




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov 22 08:08:59 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:08:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
Message-ID: <20001122080859.8294.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5976

But the impression I get of the ship is that it is a
fairly large one, and, consequently, one based on
oceangoing ships of some age.  The mast initially
seems to indicate that the ship perhaps is a sailship,
akin to a Hansa-cog, and this is supported by the
ships eerie look, like a somehow resurrected wreck. 
Of course, witht he way the ship can travel, it
doesn't necessarily have to be kept at the sea, but
it's mere presence as Durmstrang's premier and unique
instrument of transportation suggests that Durmstrang
is near the sea.

I believe there are a number of things that we fans
have worked out in much greater detail than JKR
herself.  I suspect JKR just thought of a generic cold
and dark location with lakes and mountains, to be
placed somewhere near the Arctic Circle, near the
coast.

[snip]
> Excellent analysis! I do question this particular
> assumption, 
> however. I don't think the ship had to have access
> to the sea at all, 
> judging by the way it arrived at Hogwarts. I think
> all it would have 
> needed was access to a fairly good sized lake and it
> could have done 
> a reverse whirlpool thing to get out into open
> water.
> 
> I have to say, I don't think JKR herself has the
> Durmstrang location 
> figured out as well as you do! 
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 22 16:35:58 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:35:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rik Mayall (it's OT really)
References: <1.5.4.32.20001121231622.00904e94@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A1BF5ED.1662C618@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5977

Neil Ward wrote:

> So, you've never heard the name Robbie Coltrane before?  He's the one
> playing Hagrid in the Harry Potter film...

Okay, okay. I've heard *that*  name before, but prior to the announcement of his
casting, I had not. So there.

--Amanda




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Wed Nov 22 17:17:19 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:17:19 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <20001122080859.8294.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vgv2v+hd6q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5978

One thought I had, and always envisioned while reading about 
Durmstrang was the Puliarni (sp?) inlet near Murmansk, where 
the Russians have a secret shipyard. This area was featured in 
a couple Clancy novels, The Hunt for Red October begins there. 
It is located in an area that is mountainous and has many lakes 
and the Inlet leads to the sea. 

JKR has always said she loves to read, and if she read Clancy, 
well a secret Navy base would also make a great secret school, 
would it not?

My two Knuts,

Dave





From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 22 19:57:11 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:57:11 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
Message-ID: <8vh8en+qscl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5979

We learn in book 3 that when there is a secret magically stored 
within a human being, then a person cannot see what has been hidden 
before  them even if they are staring right at them.  We also learned 
that Dumbledore offered the Potters to be their Secret-Keeper instead 
of Sirius.

Is it safe to assume that Dumbledore is Harry's Secret-Keeper and 
therefore, Voldemort cannot find Harry while he is at the Dursleys?  
Or can we assume that Vernon Dursely is the Secret-Keeper, without 
knowing? (I think it's Dumbledore.)


Odile




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov 22 20:12:48 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:12:48 -0000
Subject: OT Chads please respond offlist?
In-Reply-To: <00a701c0543a$ef917ea0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8vh9c0+s77o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5980

They are on the punch-out ballots. Basically, a chad is the little 
piece of paper that you punch-out (if that makes any sense). The big 
deal with the chads is that there are accusations that the chads are 
being punched out during the hand recounts, or that chads that look 
like they've been dimpled but aren't punched out are being counted or 
not counted, or that the chads weaken and fall out the more the 
ballots are handled.

:-)Milz


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rohleder" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I know, this is really off topic, but I know that there are some 
very smart folks here, hence my asking.... (See posts concerning the 
boxed up cat for examples!)
> 
> What are CHADS?  Why are they so important to the Florida thing?
> 
> I am just lost......
> 
> Dee
> the born-blonde.
> --------------------------------
> 
> :)
> 
> "Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so 
well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me 
"Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"
> 
> Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 22 20:55:23 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:55:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT Chads please respond offlist?
References: <8vh9c0+s77o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1C32BB.9F7DB89F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5981

I thought chads were fish, so I had had to go look it up. "Small pieces of
paper or cardboard produced in punching paper tape or data cards." In the
case of ballots, the little rectangles that fall out when when you punch
that selection. I believe that a "pregnant chad" is one that hasn't been
actually knocked out, but is pooched out by the punch.

What am I thinking of, that sounds like chad, that has to do with fish? Why
did I think that? I am truly losing it, here....

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 22 21:00:53 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:00:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
References: <8vh8en+qscl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1C3405.B904DF6D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5982

Odile wrote:

> Is it safe to assume that Dumbledore is Harry's Secret-Keeper and
> therefore, Voldemort cannot find Harry while he is at the Dursleys?
> Or can we assume that Vernon Dursely is the Secret-Keeper, without
> knowing? (I think it's Dumbledore.)

This is an interesting thought, but isn't it specifically stated somewhere
that the protection Harry has while in the care of his relatives is some
more of that "ancient magic"? Like the ancient magic that Lily somehow
invoked, that saved Harry? The Fidelius Charm doesn't seem that, well, old
and awe-inspiring. Thoughts?

Conundrum: If someone was made Secret-Keeper for someone in hiding, without
being told they were, then how would anyone ever find the person hiding? The
unknowing Keeper could not divulge the location (and he would have to be
ignorant of the location, if he didn't know he was the Keeper, or he could
mention it in passing). So unless the hider came out of hiding, would anyone
ever be able to find them again? Would they vanish from the ken of wizards?
I'm betting the Keeper has to be a willing participant.

--Amanda




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 21:04:15 2000
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly )
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:04:15 -0000
Subject: Justice: A Lawyerly Response
In-Reply-To: <8vfji9+hq2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vhccf+9abm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5983

Coming out of lurkdom momentarily to respond.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
 
> I would suggest that the Wizard AND Muggle world might have been 
> better off had Lupin and Black killed Peter Pettigrew. 


I have to disagree.  Didn't Dumbledore say that Harry did the right 
thing by not letting them kill Pettigrew, and that he might find that 
action on his part to help him out in the future?  From that comment 
I'd say that JK would disagree with you that the world would have
been 
better off.
In fact, I think any instances of vigilante attitudes in the books so 
far have been portrayed as foolish and unjust (treatment of Harry &
co 
and then Winky at Q Cup), deceptive (Pettigrew vs Sirius), or simply 
tragic mistakes (Fudge taking it upon himself to set the dementor on 
Barty Jr. [at least I hope that was a tragic mistake, and not 
intentional on the part of Fudge]).

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
I think here 
> there might be a conflict between the pagan and christian world 
view.
> The christian world view says that vengeance is the lord's and 
> therefore Lupin and Black would be sinning by killing Peter. The 
> pagan world view suggests that a person is responsible for their 
> actions. Lupin and Black could have therefore made the decision to 
> kill Peter in the best interests of themselves, the Wizard world, 
>and as payback for Lily and James. Because they are both basically 
good 
> people, they probably would have suffered for their action
(remorse, 
> regret, but they would have paid that price in order to rid the 
world 
> of Peter. 


I'm confused about the conflict in these two views as you describe 
them.  I'm a Christian and I fully expect to be responsible for my 
actions.  Yes, vengeance is the Lord's.  This means that payback is a 
bigger B than any of us could manage to exact on our own, even if
it's 
not immediate.  The only difference I can see is that in Christianity 
there is the opportunity for redemption and change of heart, which
I'm 
guessing is what Dumbledore's referring to - Pettigrew has the 
opportunity now to change his behaviour and help Harry in response to 
his mercy.  Whether he takes it or not remains to be seen, but he 
certainly wouldn't get the chance if he were dead.  True, his
survival 
brought about some unpleasant side-effects such as the return of Mr 
Nasty, but Dumbledore seems to be saying Pettigrew could well be more 
useful alive even so.  That would indicate that even without 
questioning the morality of it, killing Pettigrew would have been 
unwise.


Just my take on things - not meant to be disrespectful
Returning to lurk-mode,
kimberly




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Nov 22 21:12:31 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:12:31 EST
Subject: HP auf Deutsch
Message-ID: <10.54167e6.274d90c0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5984

You should try:

http://www.rudihein.de/hpwords.htm


Ellie Rosenthal


Kaitlin asked:

> Dear friends, I have to do an oral presentation for my
> German class and I decided to do mine on Harry Potter.
>  Does anyone know of any good HP sites in German
> (other than www.harrypotter.de)?  Your help will be
> greatly appreciated!
> Auf Wiedersehen,
> Kaitlin




From ara_kel at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 22:24:18 2000
From: ara_kel at yahoo.com (Sarah Rettger)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:24:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Character Summary - Barty Crouch Jr. and Sr.
Message-ID: <20001122222418.1378.qmail@web1504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5985

 
 

=====
Don't refuse to go on an occasional wild goose chase.  That's what wild geese are for. -- Anon.

One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. -- A. A. Milne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From ara_kel at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 22:25:18 2000
From: ara_kel at yahoo.com (Sarah Rettger)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:25:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Corrected Summary
Message-ID: <20001122222518.1509.qmail@web1504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5986

Appologies - I sent this before pasting the text last
time. -- Sarah

Barty Crouch, Sr. is introduced as a very serious,
somber character.  At the Quidditch World Cup, he
appears to be too busy organizing everything to take
time the enjoy the festivities.

It appears that Crouch places little importance on his
subordinates.  Throughout the book, he refers to Percy
only as Weatherby, and seems to take little notice of
him.

JKR makes one defining aspect of his personality
abundantly clear: He spoke as though he wanted to
leave nobody in any doubt that all his ancestors had
abided strictly by the law.  Crouchs dedication to
the rule of law is later shown when he dismisses Winky
for disobeying his orders, and when he sends his son
to Azkaban.

However, it is clear that Crouch does not follow the
letter of the law all the time.  He is willing to make
deals with Death Eaters in exchange for information,
and, of course, he gives in to his wifes desire to
see her son free, and helps his son escape from
Azkaban.

We know that he sent Sirius to Azakaban without a
trial, and recently discussed whether or not wizards
have the right to trial.  It appears from the other
cases shown in the Pensieve that the accused have the
right to a trial by jury (think Ludo Bagman).  If so,
he broke the law again in imprisoning Sirius without a
trial.

Throughout the book, whenever Crouchs speech is
described, the adverbs used are words like coldly or
disdainfully.  His lack of passion seems especially
evident at his sons trial, where he reacts to only by
speaking loudly enough to drown out his sons
shouting.

Barty Crouch, Jr. is emotionally the opposite of his
father.  At his trial, he screams, pleads, and begs in
an effort to convince others of his innocence.

Juniors crimes seem to be the most heinous in this
book.  He delivers Harry to Voldemort, and he
imprisons Moody in his trunk and keeps him under the
Imperius Curse.  To me, the crimes Junior was
imprisoned for are his worst.  He tortured an Auror
for information about Voldemorts whereabouts  not
even something that Frank Longbottom appeared to know
 and when the Auror cannot or will not give him
information, he tortures his wife, who appears to be
previously uninvolved.

Juniors loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly
clear.  He shepherds Harry through the tournament in
order to deliver him to Voldemort, and he kills his
own father on his masters orders.  This raised one
question in my mind towards the end of the book  why
didnt Junior Apparate along with the rest of the
Death Eaters?  It seemed clear that all Death Eaters
were supposed to Disapparate whenever they felt the
Dark Mark, no matter what was happening or who was
around them.  Yet Junior does not appear at
Voldemorts side along with his compatriots.




=====
Don't refuse to go on an occasional wild goose chase.  That's what wild geese are for. -- Anon.

One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. -- A. A. Milne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From ara_kel at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 22:26:08 2000
From: ara_kel at yahoo.com (Sarah Rettger)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:26:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Chapter 20 - The First Task
Message-ID: <20001122222608.2987.qmail@web1501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5987

Chapter 20  The First Task

Harry begins the chapter by telling Hermione about the
conversation he had with Sirius, and Sirius
suggestion that a simple spell will help Harry defeat
the dragon.  Together they dig through spellbooks, but
are unable to discover anything useful.  While they
are researching in the library, Viktor Krum comes in,
and Hermione is eager to leave.  She appears to
consider Krum and his fan club a nuisance.

Harry considers running away so he doesnt have to
compete in the tournament, but realizes that he is far
happier at Hogwarts than he has been at any point in
his life.  He decides he has to tell Cedric about the
dragons, so he uses a spell to rupture Cedrics bag in
an effort to get him alone.  Cedric is confused about
why Harry tells him about the dragons, but appreciates
the help.

Professor Moody overhears the conversation and takes
Harry into his office, which is filled with Dark
Detectors.  He tells Harry that what he has just done
is very noble, and that cheating has been a part of
the Triwizard Tournament since its creation.  He also
gives Harry some advice on the task: he has to know
what he is good at, and get what he needs.

When Harry realizes what Moody means, he finds
Hermione and asks her to help him practice a Summoning
Charm.  They spend most of the day practicing until he
finally masters the charm at two oclock in the
morning.

The next day, Harry is very nervous about the task. 
Finally he is called to the tent where Ludo Bagman
explains that the champions will have to select a
model of a dragon, which will be the dragon they will
face.  In order to pass the task, they must retrieve a
golden egg from each dragons nest.  Harry, going
last, gets the Hungarian Horntail, which he already
knows is considered the most dangerous.  Bagman offers
his help, which Harry declines.

When it is Harrys turn, he uses the Summoning Charm
to obtain his Firebolt.  He pretends that he is
playing Quidditch, and grabs the egg as if it is the
Golden Snitch.  He is the fastest.

Harry is sent to Madame Pomfrey, who bandages his
wounds.  As soon as he is released from the medical
tent, Ron comes over and says that he is sure someone
deliberately put Harrys name into the hat.  Without
formally making up, the two reestablish their
friendship to the delight of Hermione, who exclaims,
You two are so stupid!

The marks are posted, and Harry has tied for first
place with Viktor Krum.  The champions are told that
the eggs contain the clue they will need for the
second task.

Questions:

1. In describing Harry and Hermiones search for the
right spell, JKR wrote They walked around the lake
three times  Does this have some significance, or is
she just trying to demonstrate that Harry and Hermione
spent a significant amount of time on their search.
2. Did the scene where Ron and Harry make up seem
realistic?  I dont know much about fourteen-year-old
boys, but something about that didnt ring right with
me.  Too easy, maybe?
3. How well chaperoned are Hogwarts students?  Are
they just left alone in their towers each night with
the assumption that they will stay in their beds all
night?  Harry and Hermione practice the Summoning
Charm in an empty classroom until midnight, and then
in their common room until two oclock, and they are
never seen by an adult.  Thoughts?
4. The Triwizard Tournament is supposed to foster
international magical cooperation, yet Moody tells
Harry that cheating has been an integral part of the
tournament since its inception.  Dont these two
aspects seem to be counterproductive? 

Sarah




=====
Don't refuse to go on an occasional wild goose chase.  That's what wild geese are for. -- Anon.

One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. -- A. A. Milne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Nov 22 23:12:20 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:12:20 -0000
Subject: Ch. 20, Crouch Sr.'s coldness, Crouch Jr.'s melodramatic histrionics
Message-ID: <8vhjsk+3bru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5988

At the end of GoF, it seemed to me the reasons JKR showed us C Sr. as 
cold and inflexible (mostly) and C Jr. as pitiable in his pleas for 
his life (freedom), is her way of misleading us so when we learn the 
truth-- Jr. really is bad -- it's a big, stunning shock.  The 
curveball thing...




From john at walton.to  Thu Nov 23 00:36:23 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:36:23 +0000
Subject: Song of Time -- Chapter 2 Released
Message-ID: <B6421707.8574%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 5989

Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! Chapter 2 of "Harry Potter and the Song of
Time" has just been posted to fanfiction.net. It involves a H/H First Time
moment...so caveat shippers. :)

The direct link is

http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=119211

or alternatively, my author page is in my signature file.

(Special huggles to Special Betareader Friends Penny, Cassie and Circe)

Cheers,

--John (Crazy Ivan)
******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1
0323

Novel of the moment: "The Wild Swans": Peg Kerr
What I'm humming: "Walking in Memphis: Cher

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov 23 00:54:24 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:54:24 -0000
Subject: Chapter 20 - The First Task
In-Reply-To: <20001122222608.2987.qmail@web1501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vhps0+k55f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5990

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Sarah Rettger <ara_kel at y...> wrote:
> Chapter 20 ? The First Task
<snip>

> 3. How well chaperoned are Hogwarts students?  Are
> they just left alone in their towers each night with
> the assumption that they will stay in their beds all
> night?  Harry and Hermione practice the Summoning
> Charm in an empty classroom until midnight, and then
> in their common room until two o'clock, and they are
> never seen by an adult.  Thoughts?

There are lots of examples of this problem: 
Percy and Penelope spending time in disused 
classrooms (with those nice horizontal benches); 
Snape finding several couples in the 
bushes on "prom" night; the Weasleys coming 
home at 4 in the morning when they were students.
Even the otherwise admirable Prof. McGonnagal fails 
to give any sort of personal guidance or supervision 
to the charges in her House.

Either Madame Pomfrey's cupboards are well stocked with
contraceptives or there are things (in addition to
apparating) that can't happen at Hogwarts.  Someone 
should ask JKR about it some time.

Along the same line: what's with the elaborate
Prefect's bath (book 2)?  Do female prefects
have a separate bath? Is it co-ed? Maybe we'll
find out when Hermione is made a prefect in 
book 5.


> 4. The Triwizard Tournament is supposed to foster
> international magical cooperation, yet Moody tells
> Harry that cheating has been an integral part of the
> tournament since its inception.  Don't these two
> aspects seem to be counterproductive? 

Consider the source. Can't you just see Moody/Crouch jr 
whispering opportune information seductively into Harry's 
ear, like a disfigured Mephistopheles? Besides, what he 
said is certainly true with regard to the current Tournament, 
courtesy of Ludo Bagman, Madame Maxime, and Herr Karkaroff. 
Is it likely that past Tournaments have been any more honest?

-Jim Flanagan





From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Nov 23 01:05:52 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:05:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT Chads please respond offlist?
In-Reply-To: <3A1C32BB.9F7DB89F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKECHCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5991

There is a fish called "shad" which is related to herring, and supposedly
good to eat.



-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:55 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT Chads please respond offlist?


I thought chads were fish, so I had had to go look it up. "Small pieces of
paper or cardboard produced in punching paper tape or data cards." In the
case of ballots, the little rectangles that fall out when when you punch
that selection. I believe that a "pregnant chad" is one that hasn't been
actually knocked out, but is pooched out by the punch.

What am I thinking of, that sounds like chad, that has to do with fish? Why
did I think that? I am truly losing it, here....

--Amanda



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 23 04:34:32 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:34:32 -0600
Subject: HP Christmas screensaver, for those like me!
Message-ID: <000a01c05506$af74b540$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5992

http://www.ezthemes.com/wm15.phtml?harrypotterchristmas.exe

Just as it says! LOL
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 23 04:19:31 2000
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:19:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in the mail today!
Message-ID: <F38FGJziWwSoRKbpG1K00001088@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5993

excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you better remember 
that.


>
>
>

>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 23 04:24:31 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 04:24:31 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <8vgv2v+hd6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vi65v+l3gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5994

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:

> JKR has always said she loves to read, and if she read Clancy, 
> well a secret Navy base would also make a great secret school, 
> would it not?
> 

Somehow, I just simply dont see JKR as the type of person who reads 
Tom Clancy.  Granted that this is strictly my personal impression, 
and is based on nothing but my own little brainwaves, but I just 
really dont think so.

--Joywitch




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 23 04:14:09 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:14:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
References: <8vh8en+qscl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1C9990.626FCC91@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5995



Odile wrote:

> We learn in book 3 that when there is a secret magically stored
> within a human being, then a person cannot see what has been hidden
> before  them even if they are staring right at them.  We also learned
> that Dumbledore offered the Potters to be their Secret-Keeper instead
> of Sirius.
>
> Is it safe to assume that Dumbledore is Harry's Secret-Keeper and
> therefore, Voldemort cannot find Harry while he is at the Dursleys?
> Or can we assume that Vernon Dursely is the Secret-Keeper, without
> knowing? (I think it's Dumbledore.)
>
> Odile

I think not.  If you'll re-read Chapter 19 of PoA, you'll see that Sirius
says that he "persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last
moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of [Sirius]."
>From this, I get the impression that whoever benefits from the Fidelius
protection has to know about it, or perhaps even be involved in the
performing of it.  Sirius is speaking of Lily and James here as if they are
the actors, not merely passive bystanders.  And certainly Harry isn't aware
that he has performed any spell to make any of the Dursleys his
Secret-Keepers.

No, I think the "ancient magic" protection the Dursleys give Harry that
Dumbledore is speaking of is something different than the Fidelius spell.

Peg




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 23 04:29:17 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 04:29:17 -0000
Subject: OT Chads please respond offlist?
In-Reply-To: <00a701c0543a$ef917ea0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8vi6et+mpg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5996

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rohleder" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I know, this is really off topic, but I know that there are some 
very smart folks here, hence my asking.... (See posts concerning the 
boxed up cat for examples!)
> 
> What are CHADS?  

It is the title of book 5:  Harry Potter and the Dimpled Chad.  Then, 
of course, book 6 will be Harry Potter and the Pregnant Chad; and 
book 7:  Harry Potter and the Shotgun Wedding





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 23 05:14:10 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:14:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Justice
References: <8vhccf+9abm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1CA7A2.E3984F92@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 5997

Kimberly wrote:

> Coming out of lurkdom momentarily to respond.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
>
> > I would suggest that the Wizard AND Muggle world might have been
> > better off had Lupin and Black killed Peter Pettigrew.
>
> I have to disagree.  Didn't Dumbledore say that Harry did the right
> thing by not letting them kill Pettigrew, and that he might find that
> action on his part to help him out in the future?  From that comment
> I'd say that JK would disagree with you that the world would have
> been
> better off.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> I think here
> > there might be a conflict between the pagan and christian world
> view.
> > The christian world view says that vengeance is the lord's and
> > therefore Lupin and Black would be sinning by killing Peter. The
> > pagan world view suggests that a person is responsible for their
> > actions. Lupin and Black could have therefore made the decision to
> > kill Peter in the best interests of themselves, the Wizard world,
> >and as payback for Lily and James. Because they are both basically
> good
> > people, they probably would have suffered for their action
> (remorse,
> > regret, but they would have paid that price in order to rid the
> world
> > of Peter.
>
> I'm confused about the conflict in these two views as you describe
> them.  I'm a Christian and I fully expect to be responsible for my
> actions.  Yes, vengeance is the Lord's.  This means that payback is a
> bigger B than any of us could manage to exact on our own, even if
> it's
> not immediate.  The only difference I can see is that in Christianity
> there is the opportunity for redemption and change of heart, which
> I'm
> guessing is what Dumbledore's referring to - Pettigrew has the
> opportunity now to change his behaviour and help Harry in response to
> his mercy.  Whether he takes it or not remains to be seen, but he
> certainly wouldn't get the chance if he were dead.  True, his
> survival
> brought about some unpleasant side-effects such as the return of Mr
> Nasty, but Dumbledore seems to be saying Pettigrew could well be more
> useful alive even so.  That would indicate that even without
> questioning the morality of it, killing Pettigrew would have been
> unwise.

I'm delighted -- there has been a lot of response to my justice essay, and
some spirited discussion.  I'm going to respond in general, not always
acknowledging specific messages--it's late, I'm tired, and I've been at the
emergency room for a good part of today with my daughter (high fever, strep
throat.  Great timing, right before Thanksgiving.  Ugh.)

Re: the contrasting between "pagan" and "Christian" concepts of justice:  I
suppose my own personal concept of justice is informed by my Christianity,
but I don't want to live in a theocracy.  (I very much appreciate, for
example, the separation of church and state mandated by the United States
Constitution).  Perhaps pagans, christians, and those of any other faith can
accept the "secular" construct of justice, i.e., when the accused is brought
before the bar, he answers not to the individual he has wronged, but to
society in general, to the code of law.  When punishment is mandated by the
court as codified by the laws of the society, it is not the personal
vengeance of the victim (and therefore, the victim need feel no guilt for
what justice decrees will happen to the criminal, which would not be the
case if the victim indulged in vigilante actions--say, for example, if
Sirius and Lupin took it upon themselves to blow Peter Pettigrew away).

I like the point that someone made (Rita?? Someone else?  Too tired to
check) about Barty Crouch, Sr.'s character--the fact that it was so
important to him that everything be done "by the rules" and yet he broke
them by trading his wife for his son, and disaster and his own death
followed from that.

I didn't go quite enough into the issue of the impropriety of Barty Crouch,
Sr. sitting in judgment over his own son.  He really should have recused
himself--that's the legal term which means, he should formally had himself
removed from the case because he had a personal tie with the defendant and
therefore thinks he would be prejudiced.  Although Barty Crouch Sr.did sit
in judgment over his son, his prejudice was the opposite that one might
expect: he was crueler and more dismissive than a truly dispassionate judge
would be, rather than more sympathetic.

I've actually thought about this issue a bit, since in my last book, I had
something similar, a situation where a man was the judge in a case where his
wife was the accused--again, an obvious case where the judge absolutely
should recuse himself.  But I had to have him remain as her judge (mainly
because I stole Hans Christian Andersen's plot, and that's the way he wrote
it) so I had to do some hard thinking and explaining of why on earth did he
remain as the judge on the case.

Another thought: when doing my original essay on Justice, I also considered
throwing in something about the unjust way Snape treats many of his students
(chiefly Gryffindors) and the problem in the fact that Dumbledore lets him
do it.  But I never got around to adding that thought, and I sent the essay
on its way without it.  Anyway, if anyone wants to discuss it (although I
know we've touched upon it before in other threads) feel free.

Upon further thinking on the subject, I really do think that justice plays
an enormous part in the series, particularly in books 3 and 4, and that the
wizards who are not in league with Voldemort are clearly splitting into two
groups at the end of GoF: 1) those, like Cornelius Fudge who want to keep
the Dementors in charge of Azkaban and who don't want, as I put it in the
justice essay, to know the whole story; and 2) Dumbledore, Harry, and his
friends, who believe that Voldemort has returned and want to work together
to stop him.

I'm sure there was other stuff I wanted to throw in or respond to, but can't
come up with it at the moment.  I AM tired, so I'm going to send this along
without further editing, although I suspect it's rather incoherent.  I'll do
better next time.

Peg




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 23 05:44:59 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:44:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 20 - The First Task
References: <20001122222608.2987.qmail@web1501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002401c05510$852c8920$79dd4b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 5998


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Rettger" <ara_kel at yahoo.com>
To: <hpforgrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:26 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 20 - The First Task



> 4. The Triwizard Tournament is supposed to foster
> international magical cooperation, yet Moody tells
> Harry that cheating has been an integral part of the
> tournament since its inception.  Don't these two
> aspects seem to be counterproductive?
>
Take the Olympics as an analogy - it certainly has its share of cheating and
dishonesty, and even bloodshed (Munich 72). Yet does it not foster world
interest, and thereby augment cooperation?

    - CMC





From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 06:37:50 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 06:37:50 -0000
Subject: Chaperones (Was: Chapter 20 - The First Task
In-Reply-To: <8vhps0+k55f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vidvu+vquf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 5999

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Sarah Rettger wrote:

> > 3. How well chaperoned are Hogwarts students?  Are
> > they just left alone in their towers each night with
> > the assumption that they will stay in their beds all
> > night?  Harry and Hermione practice the Summoning
> > Charm in an empty classroom until midnight, and then
> > in their common room until two o'clock, and they are
> > never seen by an adult.  Thoughts?

It is the House Prefects' job to enforce bed-time and lights-out and 
not going into the bedrooms of opposite sex students. Adults 
(especially Filch) enforce only the curfew on being out of one's 
House. Perhaps the out-of-House curfew time for fourth-year students 
(like H and H) is midnight, which is why they moved to Gryffindor 
tower, where perhaps the prefects gave them a break because they were 
working on the TWT. Perhaps the out-of-House curfew for fourth-year 
students is normally earlier than midnight, but the adults gave H and 
H a break because of TWT.
> 
> There are lots of examples of this problem: 
> Percy and Penelope spending time in disused 
> classrooms (with those nice horizontal benches); 

That was in the daytime! I remember there were MANY secluded places 
at my old high school that patrolling teachers and guards NEVER 
checked in the daytime. I suppose that in the daytime we were thought 
to be by chaperoned by a combination of our own old-fashioned sexual 
morality (ha!) and the fear of being stumbled upon by other students 
and thus reported.

> Snape finding several couples in the bushes on "prom" night; 

I got the impression that JKR intended that to be something special 
for "prom" night, such as a lot of going-together couples who 
normally limited their physical displays of affection to shaking 
hands good-night became suddenly inspired by the sight of their 
beloveds looking good in dress robes and fancy make-up. Or maybe 
there was something special in the punch at the Ball.

> the Weasleys coming home at 4 in the morning when they were
> students.

If they had been caught out so far after curfew, they would have been 
chewed out and given detention. In fact, Arthur *was* caught by 
Filch's predecessor Argus Pringle and was given detention. Molly was 
chewed out by the Fat Lady but somehow persuaded the Fat Lady not to 
rat on her to the prefects or professors.

> Even the otherwise admirable Prof. McGonnagal fails 
> to give any sort of personal guidance or supervision 
> to the charges in her House.

In this context, I think you mean Sex Ed. This list once had a long 
conversation about whether there are sex education classes at 
Hogwarts (which I think would be better taught by Madam Pomfrey than 
by the miscellaneous Heads of Houses) or does the wizarding habit of 
old-fashioned-ness keep them in the Victorian theory that if you 
don't tell children about sex, they won't find out about it for 
themselves?

In other context, this is something that bugs me. I am convinced that 
it *must* be the responsibility of the Head of House to notice when 
hiser charges are sick and make them go see Madam Pomfrey, notice 
when they are having trouble with their school work and either give 
them a scarey warning or fix them up with an older or better student 
as study coach (depending on the cause of the school work trouble), 
and notice when they are in emotional distress and give them privacy 
with their feelnigs, a kind word, a helpful piece of advice, or an 
appointment with the school psychiatrist (depending on the cause of 
the distress). We should see McGonagall trying to help Neville, 
maybe by lending him "how to improve your memory" books, or 
requiring him to memorize a doggerel version of "The Ugly Duckling", 
or to write his affirmations 500 times a day ... I didn't say that 
the Head of House has to be *successful* in caring for hiser charges! 
 
> Either Madame Pomfrey's cupboards are well stocked with
> contraceptives or there are things (in addition to
> apparating) that can't happen at Hogwarts.  Someone 
> should ask JKR about it some time.

See message #130 with the irrelevant subject line "Re: Veela (was 
Chatterly Saga (was McGonagall's Age", in which I postulate the 
pamphlet "Simple Contraceptive Charms". I am sure that any half-way 
trained "witch" can do a variety of contraceptive spells and 
fertility spells without any need to consult a professional. 




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 06:45:25 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 06:45:25 -0000
Subject: Corrected Summary
In-Reply-To: <20001122222518.1509.qmail@web1504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8viee5+jr66@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6000

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Sarah Rettger <ara_kel at y...> wrote:

> However, it is clear that Crouch does not follow the
> letter of the law all the time.  He is willing to make
> deals with Death Eaters in exchange for information,

We don't know whether plea bargaining for information is against 
wizarding law. It is believed not to be against US law.

> Junior's loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly clear.

I always wonder WHY is Jr (and the Lestranges) so *loyal* to V? 
Loyalty is supposed to be a virtue that the Death Eaters abandoned 
when they betrayed their friends and relatives to the Dark Side.

> why didn't Junior Apparate along with the rest of the Death Eaters?

Hermione keeps telling us "you can't Apparate at Hogwarts". 
Presumably this is such a well-known fact that V knows it and 
doesn't expect Jr, Snape, or Karakoff to appear in his circle, 
whether loyal or not. Then he makes his little speech about the 
missing three: one too cowardly to join us, he will be punished; one 
has left us forever, he will be killed; and one is serving me 
loyally at Hogwarts.   




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 23 07:02:22 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:02:22 -0500
Subject: Other Rewrites for the Next GoF
References: <20001122222608.2987.qmail@web1501.mail.yahoo.com> <002401c05510$852c8920$79dd4b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <000801c0551b$54ebee80$08c44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6001

Several other rewrites in the latest edition of GoF I wanted to bring to
everyone's attention:

Mad-Eye Moody now is the Divination Professor - Professor Trelawney teaches
Dark Arts Defense

Ludo Bagman is renowned throughout Wizardom as a professional golfer rather
than for Quidditch.

At the end of Chapter 16, Colin Creevey's name also comes out of the Goblet
of Fire. Thanks to a permission slip from his pediatrician, he doesn't have
to participate.

Instead of challenging dragons in Chapter 20, the Triwizards champions
battle Blast-Ended Skrewts. Harry seizes his golden egg from a subspecies
called the Mississippi Mudtail.

In Chapter 23, Harry takes Winky instead of Parvati to the ball. She cries
all night, and embarrasses Harry by getting plastered on butterball, and
making a pass at Dean Thomas.

Barty Crouch Jr. sentences his father to Azkaban; the latter impersonates
Mad-Eye; and murders the mad Crouch Jr in Chapter 30.  In Chap. 36, Barty
Crouch Sr. is carried off by grindylows  rather than Dementors.

Severus Snape takes an extended leave of absence.  Gilderoy Lockhart is
coaxed out of retirement to teach potions.

Neville Longbottom transfers to Hufflepuff, while Ginny is accepted into
Slytherin.

Finally, Bertha Jorkins emerges from Voldy's wand after  Frank Bryce.

    - CMC





From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 07:11:08 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:11:08 -0000
Subject: (OT) Bizarre goings on in St Andrews
In-Reply-To: <B63ED30B.831C%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8vifuc+ua8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6002

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, John Walton <john at w...> wrote:

> This has almost nothing to do with HP, but I thought I'd share 
> because it's amusing. 
> (snip)
> "Raisin Weekend". This hallowed tradition dates back to the time
> when first years (freshers) would give their "senior man" or 
> "senior woman" (aka the person who showed them round the university
> and helped them settle in) a delightful bag of raisins.

At my college, we had Orientation Volunteers at Orientation Week, and 
after Orientation Week, it was the "Warden" (called Resident Advisor 
at normal universities, a grad student who lives in the dorm to be 
available to act the part of big sister -- I now wish I had taken the 
trouble to get acquainted with my Warden then, because she has grown 
up to be quite a famous person).

At our sibling college, they were called Customsmen and Customswomen, 
and the orientation week was called Customs Week, and the Customsmen 
and Customswomen were assigned freshers who lived in their same 
dorms, so they could be available to help their freshers all year. 

> (snip) "Academic Families" have also replaced the senior man/woman,
> so you now have mothers and fathers. Another recent innovation is 
> (snip) as well as costumes for the academic children.

Do I understand this? A small group of freshers are assigned to a 
"mother" (lots of room for bad jokes there) and a "father" instead of 
a senior man and senior woman, and the "children" who are in costume 
are the freshers? The holiday at my college where freshers wore 
costumes was called Hell Week, altho' it was really only one day long. 
Each fresher was assigned (by the upperclassmen in her dorm) 
something she had to dress up as on that day, and go to all her 
classes in costume. My upperclassmen chose a theme of Cartoon 
Characters and assigned me to be Fritz the Cat, because of the mildly 
shocking behavior about which I reminisce so fondly on this list. I 
was happy to meet another cat at Doughnut Hour in Thomas Great Hall, 
but she was not a cartoon character: "I have to be my kitten, Pasha!" 
There was a period of three hours in the afternoon when all the 
freshers were supposed to be locked in the attic and presenting short 
plays for the amusement of the upperclassmen, but I missed that 
because I had a class off-campus at that timeslot. We were put to bed 
with an insultingly early curfew, but people who had 7-10pm classes 
got a pass until 11pm. As it was not true that we would be woken up 
at 5AM for pajama-clad calisthentics on the (snowy: February) quad, 
it wasn't really much of a hazing. I was much annoyed when I was a 
junior (third-year) and the freshers rebelled, saying that 
hazing is politically incorrect.

> Hermione with bushy bouffant hair, a  little light reading (several
> cardboard books) and Crookshanks;

Did she persuade a REAL CAT to co-operate all day long, or just carry 
a stuffed toy cat?





From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 07:17:40 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:17:40 -0000
Subject: Beauxbatons) (was LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <20001121234021.6853.qmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vigak+t34n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6003

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> 
wrote:

> Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the
> location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems
> to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in
> the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without
> stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists).  I will assume it
> to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to
> Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic
> Fairytale palaces).

At the time that we were discussing the location of Durmstrang, 
some people on some list co-incidentally read a book about Andorra, 
which totally convinced them that Beauxbatons is in Andorra.




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 07:53:57 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:53:57 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <20001121234021.6853.qmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8viiem+bivj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6004

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> 
wrote:

> This rules out all of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, as these,
> between them, do not contain a single peak higher than 318 metres
> (1043ft) - sorry, Rita.

It doesn't hurt my feelings to admit that I know from nothing about 
geography.

> both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. 

Are you sure that Krum is Slavic? He is a Bulgarian national with a 
German surname, so perhaps he is an ethnic German. I remember hearing 
on the news early after German reunification that there were many 
communities of ethnic Germans in the former Soviet Union, and 
reunified Germany invited them to move to German and be German 
citizens at the same time that it was refusing to allow German-born 
children of ethnic Turks to apply for German citizenship. Maybe there 
were clusters of ethnic Germans in Bulgaria as well as USSR.

Karkaroff and one other named student, Poliakoff, have Slavic names, 
which I *think* could be Polish or Ukrainean rather than Russian, and 
I gather that the geography of Central Europe was so changed by each 
war that Germans and Poles and Ukraineans live all mixed up together. 
(I went to a museum exhibition of 18th century ladies' gowns, where I 
learned that the source of the name "a la polonaise" for the style of 
overskirt that USAmericans associate with Martha Washington, is that 
it was named after the Tripartite Division of Poland, after which 
there was no more Poland, only land which had been taken over 
one-third by Germany, one-third by Austria, one-third by Russia, 
becaue the skirt appeared to be divided into three parts.) 

> If Scandinavian students are split between the large academies, 
> then it is more plausible  to me that the Norwegians end up at 
> Hogwarts, 

JKR said that only students from "UK and Ireland" can go to Hogwarts. 
I quibble with her that I suspect the wizarding folk use physical 
geography rather than political geography and would speak of the 
Island of Britain, the Island of Ireland, and the groups of lesser 
islands rather than of UK and Republic. But I don't quibble with her 
that European kids are allowed to attend Hogwarts.

> I have presumed that Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Iceland have a
> joint school somewhere (In Norway, 

That makes sense.

> This leaves for me only the option of putting Durmstrang in 
> Murmansk Oblatsk, probably somewhere near the city of Kandalak?a,
> at the White Sea.

That makes sense, too. I am not married to Latvia!

> I am wondering whether to include Finns and Estonians in this, only
> Swedish-speaking Finns or no Finns or Estonians at all (with,
> perhaps, a joint Finnish-Estonian-Hungarian Institute (due to the
> languages being related),

I suspect that Hungarian isn't as related at all THAT to Finnish / 
Estonian. I mean, English and French and German and Greek and 
Russian are all related by being Indo-European languages.

> of course founded by Ilmarinen and Vainam?inen), as Finland was 
> very strongly tied to Sweden for centuries.

My word, that is a GOOD question you raise: are the wizarding Finns 
and Estonians more attached to the Swedish-related culture of 
their Muggle neighbors, or to the EXTENSIVE Finnish magic traditions? 
Altho' one would think that a wizarding school founded by Ilmarinen 
would be one of the three best wizarding schools in Europe!
> 
> I hope I did not get too boring

NOT BORING AT ALL!!!





From Yaz at good.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 12:45:02 2000
From: Yaz at good.co.uk (Yaz)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:45:02 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in the mail today!
References: <F38FGJziWwSoRKbpG1K00001088@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006101c0554b$335831e0$859501d5@merchantbtinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6005

Um, it would be helpful if you could at least include the portion of the
message to which you are replying in your email, as I have no idea at all
what this is referring to :-)

Thanks

Yaz :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi Henshaw <hermione_heidi at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 4:19 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just
arrived in the mail today!


> excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you better
remember
> that.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
_________
> Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>





From nodigio at aol.com  Thu Nov 23 12:50:11 2000
From: nodigio at aol.com (nodigio at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:50:11 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in ...
Message-ID: <bc.c9c802f.274e6c83@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6006

In a message dated 11/22/2000 10:22:17 PM Central Standard Time, 
hermione_heidi at hotmail.com writes:


> not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you better remember 
> that.
> 
> 
> 

Threats??????  Whatever for?  Just because one is not a follower of a 
specific religious leader is not a valid reason for making threats.  A 
specific religious creed is not promoted in the HP books.  Although it is 
possible that assorted articles and such containing references to religions 
and HP which may be of interest to more open-minded members of this list, it 
is to be hoped one would be mature enough to appreciate the shared 
information.

Nodigio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov 23 12:48:02 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:48:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] loya;ty among deatheaters
References: <8viee5+jr66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1D1202.A005C147@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6007



Rita Winston wrote:

>
>
> > Junior's loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly clear.
>
> I always wonder WHY is Jr (and the Lestranges) so *loyal* to V?
> Loyalty is supposed to be a virtue that the Death Eaters abandoned
> when they betrayed their friends and relatives to the Dark Side.

I'm not sure this was loyalty in the same way that, say Ron & Hermione &
Harry are (when not having fights) loyal to each other  - we don't know
enough about the Lestranges, but I can imagine Barty Crouch helping them out
with their Evil Plan to find voldemort by any means necessary not out of
"loyalty" but out of desparation to recapture the power they could have had
if Voldemort had been able to take over (although there's the issue of *why*
anyone would want to find the defeated & powerless Voldemort in the first
place, because how much power could he provide to his followers in those
defeated circumstances?)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Nov 23 12:51:50 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:51:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Beauxbatons) (was LONG: School-locations, mostly  Durmstrang
References: <8vigak+t34n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1D12E6.656FA062@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6008



Rita Winston wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub <rhodhry at y...>
> wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, we are not told too much about the
> > location of Beauxbatons, though the impression seems
> > to be given of a palace like to the royal palaces in
> > the Loire-valley (decorated tastefully, without
> > stuffed k-niggets and poltergeists).  I will assume it
> > to be in a relatively mild area, in a chateau akin to
> > Chambord or Azay le Rideau (the ultimate Romantic
> > Fairytale palaces).
>
> At the time that we were discussing the location of Durmstrang,
> some people on some list co-incidentally read a book about Andorra,
> which totally convinced them that Beauxbatons is in Andorra.
>

And the fact that the Pyrenees, which are in Andorra, have historically been
known as "the magic mountains" (and it was a feudal state until 1993, giving
a lot of leeway for a magical castle to hide)




From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Thu Nov 23 12:57:11 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:57:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Corrected Summary
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED6B@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6009


> > why didn't Junior Apparate along with the rest of the Death Eaters?
> 
> Hermione keeps telling us "you can't Apparate at Hogwarts". 
> Presumably this is such a well-known fact that V knows it and 
> doesn't expect Jr, Snape, or Karakoff to appear in his circle, 
> whether loyal or not. Then he makes his little speech about the 
> missing three: one too cowardly to join us, he will be punished; one 
> has left us forever, he will be killed; and one is serving me 
> loyally at Hogwarts.   
> 
	I think that the plot to replace Moody with Junior was so
successful, that Junior was going to keep the charade as long as possible.
And disappearing when summoned would have made Dumbledore suspicious - as he
became when "Moody" hustled Harry away.

	Angela



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Thu Nov 23 13:10:07 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:10:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Beauxbatons) (was LONG: School-locations, mostly  Durmstrang
Message-ID: <20001123131007.15278.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6010

[snip]
> > At the time that we were discussing the location
> of Durmstrang,
> > some people on some list co-incidentally read a
> book about Andorra,
> > which totally convinced them that Beauxbatons is
> in Andorra.
> >
> 
> And the fact that the Pyrenees, which are in
> Andorra, have historically been
> known as "the magic mountains" (and it was a feudal
> state until 1993, giving
> a lot of leeway for a magical castle to hide)

What is the climate like in that region?  I got the
impression that the Beauxbatons-students are used to
rather gentler winterweather than what Hogwarts had to
offer upon their arrival, so it cannot be very cold.

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 23 14:25:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:25:29 -0600
Subject: It might be me, but isn't this just a bit expensive?
Message-ID: <009701c05559$3b3d5760$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6011

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/45097324
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Thu Nov 23 14:02:15 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 15:02:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It might be me, but isn't this just a bit expensive?
Message-ID: <20001123140215.20114.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6012

It's you! ;-)

Actually, that is a 14 456% gain the seller gets on
the initial investment - quite a bit.


--- Denise Rohleder <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> skrev: >
http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/45097324
> --------------------------------
> 
> :)
> 
> "Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the
> life you know so well. Take with you the precision
> of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
> sorrow, may you ever return"
> 
> Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From mharvey at alumni.brown.edu  Tue Nov 21 18:39:15 2000
From: mharvey at alumni.brown.edu (Matthew Harvey)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:39:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's courage
In-Reply-To: <8vbh15+bnko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIILOPMHDGFKECCIMIECKCNAA.matthew_harvey@yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6013

> Gen made the point that writing Neville off is easy because of the
> way he's usually portrayed.  I agree.  We see Neville from Harry's
> perspective, and Harry tends to write Neville off most of the time.

That's an excellent point -- Harry (pre-GoF) wrote off Neville, because it's
easier to ignore/feel-sorry-for the helpless or clueless types when you're
busy saving the world.

Now that Harry knows Neville's parents' story, though, I expect that Harry
will pay a little more attention to him and take him more seriously; now
Neville's a fellow victim who lost his parents in the war against Voldemort.
This might, in Harry's mind, further qualify Neville to become part of the
team.

-- Matt


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 23 15:12:14 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:12:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just  arrived in the mail today!
References: <F38FGJziWwSoRKbpG1K00001088@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A1D33CE.3CADAE11@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6014

Heidi Henshaw wrote:

> excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you better remember
> that.

Uh . . . are you objecting to the 7 Heavenly Virtues essays I've been
doing?  (I can't think what else that has appeared on the list lately
might have prompted this outburst). I think I am very aware that not
everyone on this list is a Christian.  Because I explained at the onset
that these essays are meant to be more inclusive than just for
Christians--3 of the virtues are taken from christian theology, true,
but 4 are taken from the writings of the ancient Greeks, and I have
tried to include secular as well as religious thought.

The point of the 7 Deadly Sins and the 7 Deadly Virtues essays is to
assess Harry's growth as a moral person, and I, for one, believe that
people of many faiths, as well as people who consider themselves to be
atheists, can be moral people.

Um, if you object to me being "at it again" then simply delete any
message you see from me unread.  I think other people on this list,
however, do enjoy the essays.

Peg



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov 23 16:14:37 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:14:37 -0000
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving; Question for Heidi Henshaw
Message-ID: <8vjfpd+4cno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6015

Hi everyone --

Since I'm away for the holidays, I must post through egroups (so ... 
there have been threads I wanted to reply to but got lazy due to the 
effort of needing to change over to egroups).  

Happy Thanksgiving to the Americans on the list!!

<<Heidi Henshaw wrote:

<<<excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you 
better remember that.>>>>

Heidi -- please tell us what you are referring to.  It's really not 
within the confines of good list etiquette to make a threatening 
message like that and not even specify what you're referring to.  As 
best I can tell, noone in the last few days has made any post that 
could be construed as offensive to non-Christians.  I think most of 
our members are quite well aware of the diversity of our members, and 
everyone has been very respectful of this.  I would appreciate if you 
would reply to the list as a whole since many of us appear to be 
curious as to what prompted your post, but feel free to email me 
privately as well if there's some instance of offensive posting that 
you want to discuss with me.  I should add that threatening messages 
of this nature are *not* well-received by your list-mom.  We are a 
friendly group.  We're capable of disagreeing respectfully with each 
other and remain courteous at all times (or at least that's the 
objective in any case).

Penny






From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 16:26:33 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:26:33 -0000
Subject: Prefect / Molly and Artur and the somehting OT on freshers and uni
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELFCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6016

Rita wrote: "If they had been caught out so far after curfew, they would
have been chewed out and given detention. In fact, Arthur *was* caught by
Filch's predecessor Argus Pringle and was given detention. Molly was chewed
out by the Fat Lady but somehow persuaded the Fat Lady not to rat on her to
the prefects or professors."

Of course there is the explanation that the portrait (fat lady) reports to
the prefects and in this case the prefects were Molly and Arthur. In that
case it would be the case that the portrait has no one to inform.


Rita asked: "Do I understand this? A small group of freshers are assigned to
a "mother" (lots of room for bad jokes there) and a "father" instead of a
senior man and senior woman, and the "children" who are in costume are the
freshers?"

In my college the situation is that at the end of the first year you are
given the details of a couple of people who have places for the following
year. In general they either do the same subject or are from the same
locality as you are. After finding out if they got in (i.e. waiting to find
out if they got the required grades and accepted their place) you contact
them to say hello and let them ask any questions they have about university
life. Hence why one of the parents is usually doing the same subject.

At the beginning of the year there are some arranged events where you get to
meet your children (and obviously they get to meet their parents). Of course
there can be some problems with this system. I am myself an orphan - never
met my parents and do not know who they are. Also I now have great grand
children - something that is guaranteed to make me feel old!

Simon




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Thu Nov 23 17:16:44 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:16:44 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
References: <8viiem+bivj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20001123181644.85D.1.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 6017

On 23.11.2000 at 07:53:57 Rita Winston wrote:

>I suspect that Hungarian isn't as related at all THAT to Finnish / 
>Estonian. I mean, English and French and German and Greek and 
>Russian are all related by being Indo-European languages.

Forgive me if this puts me straight into lecture mode, but I suddenly
feel that hours of boring lectures I had to sit through when I
studied translations where not in vain. ;-)

The languages Christian mentioned belong to the Finno-Ugrian group of
languages. German, Swedish English and a couple of others are
Germanic languages. French, Italian, Spanish etc. are Romance
languages. Finno-Ugrian, Germanic, Romance and a couple of other
groups form the Indo-European language family. So Finnish and
Hungarian are closer related that, say, Finnish and Swedish.

And while I'm at it, even though it is true that there are ethnic
Germans in Bulgaria and other Balkan states and krumm is the German
word for crooked, Krum doesn't necessarily have to be a German name.
The single m doesn't look right to me, but then AFAIK Rowling doesn't
speak German, and as the professor who gave the above mentioned
boring lectures used to say: with names everything is possible. 

<end lecture mode>

I like Christian's theory about the location of Durmstrang. I don't
remember who mentioned Hunt for Red October, but I, too, had the
images from the beginning of the movie in my mind when I wondered
where Durmstrang might be. 

Happy Thanksgiving to all American members

Christina
--
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
 - Bill Watterson: Calvin and Hobbes. Weirdos from another Planet

The site for bookworms and movienuts: http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 22 05:14:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:14:03 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rik Mayall (it's OT really)
References: <1.5.4.32.20001121231622.00904e94@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004901c05443$184215a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6018

Rik and his "Young Ones" were exported to the US via MTV back when the
phrase "I WANT MY MTV!" was popular, and the cable box was a slider switch,
rather than this electrically dysfunctional thing we have now that men folks
use to annoy their women folks by not stopping on a channel until 8 minutes
into the show (and of course, it's the show THEY like),  after flipping
through all 543 channels available....

(Quick related humor to the remote subject--how do you get a man to do a
sit-up?  Stick the remote between his feet.)

Yes, I lived with these kinds of "SELFISH" (hint to the men out there)
men....

Dee


--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374

> I imagine some of those shows would have been shown on US cable channels,
if
> anywhere, and some would certainly not have been exported to the US.

(Neil)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From john at walton.to  Thu Nov 23 18:08:01 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:08:01 +0000
Subject: Christians, non-Christians, The Wild Swans
In-Reply-To: <3A1D33CE.3CADAE11@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <B6430CA3.85D8%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6019

Peg Kerr at pkerr06 at attglobal.net wrote:

> Um, if you object to me being "at it again" then simply delete any
> message you see from me unread.  I think other people on this list,
> however, do enjoy the essays.

Yes! Please keep them up! I for one certainly enjoy reading them -- and
they're great for combatting the militant type of "Christian" that tends to
attack things like HP. (I'll stop there so as not to offend anybody.)

As a sidenote, I've just finished Peg's novel "The Wild Swans", and would
recommend it to ANYONE and everyone. It is a gorgeous piece of literature,
very moving but not in any way glib. Peg, I'll be dropping you a line soon
to chat about it, if that's okay. (Just let me get my International
Relations essay out of the way...as an amusing aside, the essay is on the
Gush/Bore effect on the rest of the world. Very good stuff...)

Cheers,

--John

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1
0323

Novel of the moment: "The Wild Swans": Peg Kerr
What I'm humming: "Walking in Memphis: Cher

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 19:25:59 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:25:59 -0000
Subject: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just  arrived in the mail today!
In-Reply-To: <3A1D33CE.3CADAE11@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8vjr07+fn03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6020

Heidi Henshaw wrote:
 
>>> excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you 
better remember that.

Peg wrote:
 
> Uh . . . are you objecting to the 7 Heavenly Virtues essays I've 
been doing?  

I don't think Heidi was objecting to your essays, Peg.  She was 
referring to something that Dee copied over from the old Yahoo club 
(I'm assuming) that suggested that the HP books were very anti-
Christian or something along those lines. Heidi obviously thought it 
was Dee making the comments and decided to post that rather blunt one-
liner.

Neil



 





From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Nov 23 20:05:45 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:05:45 -0000
Subject: TV Remote (OT) (was: Rik Mayall (it's OT really)
In-Reply-To: <004901c05443$184215a0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8vjtap+t43v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6021

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:

> rather than this electrically dysfunctional thing we have now that
> men folks use to annoy their women folks by not stopping on a 
> channel until 8 minutes into the show 

Writer Sandra Tsing Loh has said repeatedly that the secret of a happy 
marriage is separate televisions. Her husband can watch out-of-focus 
documentaries on boring subjects in the living room while she watches 
shamefully sleazey specials (she mentioned MTV's "Pimps and Hoes 
Ball") in the bedroom.

Tim and I have our version of this. He has a TV, VCR, and universal 
remote in the living, and I have a radio/mini-stereo, VCR, and two 
remotes in the bedroom.  




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 21:32:10 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:32:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Song of Time -- Chapter 2 Released
References: <B6421707.8574%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <002101c05594$d6eab280$4aad883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 6022

Thanks for the link. I am approcahing the end of the teaching prac from hell
and your story was much needed light relief. I loved it. Especially the H/H
bits I swear they were meant to be. What willI do if JKR disagrees?

Thank you for the News of the Screws <g> I presume you are reffering to that
comic masquerading as a newspaper the News of the World. Quoting my dear
Mama "Get thta disgraceful rag out of my house. Its not suitable (aimed at
18 yr old brother) No just give it rto me" Whereupon she reads the
aforementioned rag from cover to cover.

and also

"I'm so glad that our relationship has given you food for thought, Draco,"
Harry said venomously. "Remind me to put arsenic in it next time." I'm going
to remeber that fot future reference.

BTW did you write to the person who wrote St Andrews is a university in
Scotland to thank them for letting you know where your uni was located?

Heather, off to write about "The use of ICT in the nursery"





From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 21:57:59 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:57:59 -0000
Subject: Mea Culpa
References: <8vjtap+t43v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e501c05598$72546f60$4aad883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 6023

Sorry. I don't know why my ISP sent that last message twice . . It was alos
only meant to go to John Walton and thats my fault I didn't check properley.
Consider me grovelling on the floor or I would if it wasn't so much effort!





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 23 22:03:00 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:03:00 -0500
Subject: I Am Moody (song)
References: <8vjr07+fn03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c05599$262e4e20$60c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6024

Another in an occasional series.....

I AM MOODY

(to the tune of I Am Woman)

I am Moody, hear an Auror
Declare total all-out war
Against each Dark Art practitioner devout
I will transport Voldemort
O'er the brink of Thermidor
And those Death-Eating scum I'll ferret out!

Oh yes I am mad
I suspect every ashcan
But I'll not be had
By any evil wizard's plan
Gonna send that trash straight back to Azkaban!
I am mad!
I am intransigent!
I am Moody!

I use Constant Vigilance when I teach Dark Arts Defense
Nothing out there can escape my view
My eye swivels three-six-oh
Catching sight of every foe
I see straight through you as I look askew!

Oh I'm insane
I get quite delirious
When I sustain
Another Curse Imperius
And other hexes much more deleterious
I am mad!
I am intransigent!
I am..

(he reaches for his hip flask, but finds it is empty. He abruptly changes
back to Barty Crouch Jr.)

 ...leaving!

(Exit, pursued by Dementors)

    - CMC




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 23 22:59:43 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:59:43 -0000
Subject: Pullman interview and some comments relating to HP
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELKCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6025

Interviewer: "What do you think of J K Rowling's Harry Potter books? Why do
you think the supernatural is so effective in capturing the imaginations of
children?"
Pullman: "I think that J K Rowling has done a terrific job, and three cheers
for her. And it's not only children who like the supernatural: we all do, in
different ways. Actually the thing that captures children and adults most of
all is just a good story, supernatural or not."

I: "Do you prefer writing for children than for adults?"
P: "Well, I don't write just for children. I write books which, as it
happens, adults read as well. I don't know about this business of writing
'for' this audience or that one. It's too like labelling the book as
fantasy - it shuts out more readers than it includes. If I think of my
audience at all, I think of a group that includes adults, children, male,
female, old, middle-aged, young - everyone who can read. If horses, dogs,
cats, or pigeons could read, they'd be welcome to it as well. I don't want
to shut anyone out."

The above come from an interview with Philip Pullman on the WHSmiths Online
Web Site.
I found it interesting that he replied with basically a very similar comment
to the one JKR uses about readership level. That the books are there for all
and are not, specifically, aimed at children.

And I fully agree with his comments that the most important thing is that
the book is good. If this is the case then it does not really matter as to
which subject / genre it is about, it will be read and enjoyed by lots of
people.

Simon (waiting for the second book in the series by the above author to
arrive)
PS: I was also pleased that I correctly identified which of the Oxford
Colleges he studied at. I was glad that I understood the hints in the first
book!






From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Nov 23 23:48:17 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:48:17 -0000
Subject: OT Plea for help
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELKCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <001601c055a7$dad0f2c0$df5c893e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 6026

Someone on this list I think it was Peg quoted from a book or article which
suggested that gifted children/ adults can become obbssessed with a certain
subject for  aperiod of time and then it will run its course and they'll
move onto the next.

Please can you let me have the reference to this article/ book as I would
like to quote it in relation to a case study of a child on my teaching Prac
whom I think it applies to. While on the subject of pleas for help I hadn't
checked my mail in a week and Peg's essay on justice is missing. Perhaps my
ISP ate it. Please could someone send it to me.

Thanks

Heather.

16 days down 6 to go.




From john at walton.to  Fri Nov 24 02:04:02 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:04:02 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Song of Time -- Chapter 2 Released
In-Reply-To: <002101c05594$d6eab280$4aad883e@default>
Message-ID: <B6437C4D.860C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6027

Heather Edmonds at Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk wrote:

> BTW did you write to the person who wrote St Andrews is a university in
> Scotland to thank them for letting you know where your uni was located?

Yeah. I thought that one was a particularly helpful review. Almost as
helpful as the "eww!!! remus n justin is not gay! if they is i dont like
it!11111" review of Chapter 1. ::rolls eyes::

And you're most welcome for the News of the Screws. I despair that there are
actually people who believe that it's ::giggle:: a ::snort:: NEWSPAPER
::runs away in fits of hysterics::

Cheers,

--John

******************************************
Crazy Ivan          john at walton.to

Fiction @ fanfiction.net:
"Potter II: The Curse of Slytherin"
"Harry Potter and the Song of Time"
http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=1
0323

Novel of the moment: "The Wild Swans": Peg Kerr
What I'm humming: "Walking in Memphis: Cher

Remember: A Reviewing day is a Happy day.
******************************************




From john at walton.to  Fri Nov 24 02:24:28 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 02:24:28 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Beauxbatons location
In-Reply-To: <20001123131007.15278.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B64381DC.8610%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6028

Christian Stub? at rhodhry at yahoo.no wrote:

> What is the climate like in that region?  I got the
> impression that the Beauxbatons-students are used to
> rather gentler winterweather than what Hogwarts had to
> offer upon their arrival, so it cannot be very cold.

Well, I don't know about the Pyrenees, but I DO know how
abso-blooding-lutely freezing it is in Scotland around, oh, say, NOW. A
friend's beard actually FROZE today, that's how cold it was. Mind you, it
could be worse. It could be raining.

Anyway, the Andorran climate doesn't have to be tropical...just a little
warmer than Scotland.

--John, who's got five layers on at the moment...
=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

George Bush: Electile Dysfunction complicated by Premature Congratulations.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 24 02:34:13 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:34:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just   arrived in the mail today!
References: <8vjr07+fn03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1DD3A4.5FA9184A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6029

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

> Heidi Henshaw wrote:
>
> >>> excuse me but not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you
> better remember that.
>
> Peg wrote:
>
> > Uh . . . are you objecting to the 7 Heavenly Virtues essays I've
> been doing?
>
> I don't think Heidi was objecting to your essays, Peg.  She was
> referring to something that Dee copied over from the old Yahoo club
> (I'm assuming) that suggested that the HP books were very anti-
> Christian or something along those lines. Heidi obviously thought it
> was Dee making the comments and decided to post that rather blunt one-
> liner.
>
> Neil
>

Ah.  I strongly suspect you are absolutely right, Neil.  I'd entirely
forgotten about that message Dee had posted (well, it's easy to forget a
message or two, when the replies are flying fast and furious).

Peg
(who now feel rather foolish.)




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 24 03:06:43 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:06:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT Plea for help
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELKCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <001601c055a7$dad0f2c0$df5c893e@default>
Message-ID: <3A1DDB43.20D0D0BD@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6030

Heather Edmonds wrote:

> Someone on this list I think it was Peg quoted from a book or article which
> suggested that gifted children/ adults can become obbssessed with a certain
> subject for  aperiod of time and then it will run its course and they'll
> move onto the next.
>
> Please can you let me have the reference to this article/ book as I would
> like to quote it in relation to a case study of a child on my teaching Prac
> whom I think it applies to. While on the subject of pleas for help I hadn't
> checked my mail in a week and Peg's essay on justice is missing. Perhaps my
> ISP ate it. Please could someone send it to me.
>
> Thanks
>
> Heather.

Yes, that was me.  I went back to my materials and realized that it was a two
sheet hand out I'd received from the Minneapolis School District when I went to
a conference on Gifted and Talented children.  At the top, it says "How to Live
Successfully With the Gifted Child" and underneath it says "Taken from Jeanne
L. Delp."

What I quoted was item number 3 on a list of 17:

"Gifted Kids have an irresistible desire to devour a subject.  Sometimes to the
exclusion of all others.  The child picks the subject, and is often seen as
persistent and stubborn.  It will not work to try and interest him in new
topics.  Let him devour."

I did a Google search on Jeanne Delp and ran across several references.  She
was apparently an educator in California specializing in education of the
gifted and talented, now deceased.  See:

http://members.aol.com/cacg1/gifted.htm

which lists, among other books

A Handbook for Parents of Gifted and Talented: Also Helpful for Educators by
Jeanne Delp and Ruth Martinson

Perhaps this list is taken from that.  There is also a reference to Jeanne Delp
at:

http://www.paed.uni-muenchen.de/~psydiag/gifted/BIB10.HTM

Hope this helps.

The Justice essay was #5892, and there were a number of replies.  I will send
it to you separately.

Peg




From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov 24 03:45:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:45:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Language minutiae
References: <8viiem+bivj@eGroups.com> <Q.20001123181644.85D.1.1DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <3A1DE450.AE0EFD4A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6031

Christina Gross wrote:

> On 23.11.2000 at 07:53:57 Rita Winston wrote:
>
> >I suspect that Hungarian isn't as related at all THAT to Finnish /
> >Estonian. I mean, English and French and German and Greek and
> >Russian are all related by being Indo-European languages.
>
> The languages Christian mentioned belong to the Finno-Ugrian group of
> languages. German, Swedish English and a couple of others are
> Germanic languages. French, Italian, Spanish etc. are Romance
> languages. Finno-Ugrian, Germanic, Romance and a couple of other
> groups form the Indo-European language family. So Finnish and
> Hungarian are closer related that, say, Finnish and Swedish.

Okay, like anyone cares by now, here's a linguistic clarification. I am
pleased that my recollections matched the Cambridge Encyclopedia of
Language, which I snuck into the sleeping baby's room to get to check this
stuff.

Indo-European Family. Contains zillions of languages, subgrouped as follows:
Albanian, Anatolian (extinct--Hittite, mostly), Armenian, Balto-Slavic,
Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Indo-Iranian, Italic (which is referred to as
"Romance" above"), and Tocharian (extinct--the furthest eastern reach of the
language family, Chinese Turkestan, and postulated by some to be the
language spoken by the "caucasian" mummies of that region). *Not*
Finno-Ugric.

Uralic Family. Contains two branches, Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic.

I'm happy to ramble on forever about things linguistic, but oddly, people
seem to glaze over after a few minutes, so you may now all go back to things
that interest you. Thank you and goodnight.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Nov 24 03:49:07 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:49:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Corrected Summary
References: <8viee5+jr66@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A1DE532.488350BA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6032

Rita Winston wrote:

> > Junior's loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly clear.
>
> I always wonder WHY is Jr (and the Lestranges) so *loyal* to V?
> Loyalty is supposed to be a virtue that the Death Eaters abandoned
> when they betrayed their friends and relatives to the Dark Side.

This is not loyalty, per se, which *is* a virtue. This is fanaticism carried
to an extreme, which is a fault? failing? weakness? whatever. But the
distinction is valid, I think.

--Amanda




From MikeSusanGray at Swissonline.ch  Fri Nov 24 08:17:53 2000
From: MikeSusanGray at Swissonline.ch (Mike Gray)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
Message-ID: <20001124081753.17718.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6033

LIZARDS & THANKSGIVING
 
> Komodo dragons are the largest lizards in the world.
Besides
> full-grown goats ...

Oh dear.  I manage to clamber onto the net during my
first vacation in an entire year, and what do I find?!
<sniffs> I wish some people on this list could be a
bit more sensitive.  I'm certainly glad to be spending
Thanksgiving in the U.S., home of tukey dinners and
happy goats.

And on that note: may all you Americans enjoy
excellent digestive performance--and may everyone else
(including the Americans) enjoy love, plenty and
gratitude!  
 
BTW, are there spells to cure heartburn or
constipation ... or are laxative spells classed as
Dark Magic? I could use any of the above, and then
some, since I've got a head cold, sick stomach and an
incipient fever.  I couldn't sleep and the fever is
making me light-headed.  Parish be thanked, I can work
out some of the light-headedness by writing to the
HP4GU list.
 
MUSINGS
 
(1) If you haven't already, go buy Peg Kerr's book,
the Wild Swans. It's good, beautiful, thought
provoking. It's just the sort of challenging work I've
come to expect from Peg. (I finished it last week.)
 
(2) I spent a week north of Boston and paid a visit to
Salem, MA--the spiritual Patria of Jerry Falwell,
erstwhile home of witch burnings, now host to
uncountable horror shows, pink crystal dealers, and
green tea outlets. But one of the shop windows solved
one of our worst conundrums: how do they manage to
ride brooms without seriously endangering their
procreative talents? The shop window displayed a broom
with a bolt on bicylce seat, a bottle holder (w/
champagne bottle), and a rubber plunger on the tip.
Good ideas! Nota Bene: As an active mountain biker, I
would suggest a better quality saddle to anyone
considering a purchase.   
 
(3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or anybody
else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to save
Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible answer:
they weren't allowed to use any spell more than once.
 
(4) If anyone could refer me to a good recovery group
for HP addicts, I'd appreciate it.  I'm struggling
with a terrible urge to write a fanfic, and this fever
has put me over the edge.  I'm afraid I've even
drafted an outline, and with a another week of
vacation, I'm afraid the urge will get the better of
me. Please Help me before it's too late.
 
Heeeeellllp--Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (the sorry remnants of Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat


__________________________________________________
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 24 12:49:17 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:49:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christians, non-Christians, The Wild Swans
Message-ID: <20001124124917.14863.qmail@web208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6034


--- John Walton <john at walton.to> wrote:
> Peg Kerr at pkerr06 at attglobal.net wrote:
> 
> > Um, if you object to me being "at it again" then
> simply delete any
> > message you see from me unread.  I think other
> people on this list,
> > however, do enjoy the essays.
> 
> Yes! Please keep them up! I for one certainly enjoy
> reading them 

I agree. Although I don't often comment on them, I
very much look forward to reading them.

> As a sidenote, I've just finished Peg's novel "The
> Wild Swans", and would
> recommend it to ANYONE and everyone. It is a
> gorgeous piece of literature,
> very moving but not in any way glib. 

I've read this as well, wonderful book. I'm passing it
on to our local GLBT library, they'd like to see if
they want to include it in their collection (they
focus on Canadian works, but my glowing
recommendations are getting them to consider "The Wild
Swans"!).

Sheryll 


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Fri Nov 24 13:14:44 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:14:44 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
Message-ID: <20001124131444.21338.qmail@web1306.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6035

[snip]
> BTW, are there spells to cure heartburn or
> constipation ... or are laxative spells classed as
> Dark Magic? I could use any of the above, and then
> some, since I've got a head cold, sick stomach and
> an
> incipient fever.  I couldn't sleep and the fever is
> making me light-headed.  Parish be thanked, I can
> work
> out some of the light-headedness by writing to the
> HP4GU list.

You have my deepest sympathy (as long as you do not
pass it on to me, that is ;-> )

[snip-snippety-snip!]
> (3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or
> anybody
> else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to save
> Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible answer:
> they weren't allowed to use any spell more than
> once.

I would presume that water poses an obstacle for that
spell - my impression is that in many variants of
folklore, water is an inhibitor for magic.  Of course,
Harry and the other Hogwarts-students could just be
obsessed with finding complicated solutions, where a
simpler solution would have sufficed.
  
> (4) If anyone could refer me to a good recovery
> group
> for HP addicts, I'd appreciate it.  I'm struggling
> with a terrible urge to write a fanfic, and this
> fever
> has put me over the edge.  I'm afraid I've even
> drafted an outline, and with a another week of
> vacation, I'm afraid the urge will get the better of
> me. Please Help me before it's too late.

Why on earth do you want help?  I find myself in a
much similar predicament (though my outline isn't
quite on paper yet), and it is a wonderful feeling. 
Can you think of anything better than being addicted
to HP?

I'll now withdraw, and get back to counting devils (I
have to doublecheck my previous results).

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 24 13:46:02 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 05:46:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Musings
Message-ID: <20001124134602.29555.qmail@web209.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6036


--- Christian Stub <rhodhry at yahoo.no> wrote:
> [snip]
> > (4) If anyone could refer me to a good recovery
> > group
> > for HP addicts, I'd appreciate it.  I'm struggling
> > with a terrible urge to write a fanfic, and this
> > fever
> > has put me over the edge.  I'm afraid I've even
> > drafted an outline, and with a another week of
> > vacation, I'm afraid the urge will get the better
> of
> > me. Please Help me before it's too late.
> 
> Why on earth do you want help?  I find myself in a
> much similar predicament (though my outline isn't
> quite on paper yet), and it is a wonderful feeling. 
> Can you think of anything better than being addicted
> to HP?

I couldn't resist responding to this bit! Perhaps Neil
could be of some assistance with the addiction. Didn't
he mantion opening the "Flying Ford Clinic" at one
point?

Sheryll (fellow HP addict - I just bought the first 3
books in French and am slowly working through them)

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 24 14:55:52 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 08:55:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
References: <20001124131444.21338.qmail@web1306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003601c05626$a4b141c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6037

Perhaps since Ron's not inanimate, this spell wouldn't work on him like it
would a broom, which hasn't any feelings?

Wonders if you can summon mice?  Make a good experiment to test my
theory....


888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888


> > (3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or
> > anybody
> > else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to save
> > Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible answer:
> > they weren't allowed to use any spell more than
> > once.
>
> I would presume that water poses an obstacle for that
> spell - my impression is that in many variants of
> folklore, water is an inhibitor for magic.  Of course,
> Harry and the other Hogwarts-students could just be
> obsessed with finding complicated solutions, where a
> simpler solution would have sufficed.



__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Fri Nov 24 14:22:37 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:22:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
Message-ID: <20001124142237.18222.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6038

The banishing charm does work on professor Flitwick,
though.  It seems likely to me that banishing and
summoning work on the same general principle, but
adapted differently, so what works for one, would work
also for the other.

--- Denise Rogers <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> skrev: >
Perhaps since Ron's not inanimate, this spell
> wouldn't work on him like it
> would a broom, which hasn't any feelings?
> 
> Wonders if you can summon mice?  Make a good
> experiment to test my
> theory....
> 
> 
>
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
> 
> 
> > > (3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or
> > > anybody
> > > else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to
> save
> > > Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible
> answer:
> > > they weren't allowed to use any spell more than
> > > once.
> >
> > I would presume that water poses an obstacle for
> that
> > spell - my impression is that in many variants of
> > folklore, water is an inhibitor for magic.  Of
> course,
> > Harry and the other Hogwarts-students could just
> be
> > obsessed with finding complicated solutions, where
> a
> > simpler solution would have sufficed.
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Nov 24 15:51:38 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:51:38 -0000
Subject: loya;ty among deatheaters
In-Reply-To: <3A1D1202.A005C147@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8vm2qa+6crs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6039

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Rita Winston wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > > Junior's loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly clear.
> >
> > I always wonder WHY is Jr (and the Lestranges) so *loyal* to V?
> > Loyalty is supposed to be a virtue that the Death Eaters abandoned
> > when they betrayed their friends and relatives to the Dark Side.
> 
> I'm not sure this was loyalty in the same way that, say Ron & 
Hermione &
> Harry are (when not having fights) loyal to each other  - we don't 
know
> enough about the Lestranges, but I can imagine Barty Crouch helping 
them out
> with their Evil Plan to find voldemort by any means necessary not 
out of
> "loyalty" but out of desparation to recapture the power they could 
have had
> if Voldemort had been able to take over (although there's the issue 
of *why*
> anyone would want to find the defeated & powerless Voldemort in the 
first
> place, because how much power could he provide to his followers in 
those
> defeated circumstances?)

Good question. Maybe their loyality lies in greed. That is, the greed 
for the power and wealth they would receive in a world ruled by 
Voldemort (similar to the other Death Eaters). However, maybe Crouch 
Jr. and the Lestranges had nothing to go back to after Voldemort was 
defeated. Crouch Jr. didn't like his father and perhaps his family's 
lifestyle. We don't know anything about the Lestranges' backgrounds. 
Maybe they were financially strapped like the Weasleys? Clearly, 
Lucius Malfoy had nothing to lose if Voldemort gained total rule, but 
he had everything to lose if Voldemort fell: his family reputation 
and perhaps his family wealth. 

:-) Milz




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Nov 24 18:04:29 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 18:04:29 -0000
Subject: Language minutiae
In-Reply-To: <3A1DE450.AE0EFD4A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8vmajd+32t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6040

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> I'm happy to ramble on forever about things linguistic, but oddly, 
people
> seem to glaze over after a few minutes, so you may now all go back 
to things
> that interest you. Thank you and goodnight.
> 
I found the linguistic discussion very interesting, but then again I 
am a nerd and I am accustomed to seeing other peoples eyes glaze over 
while I blather on about things I think are interesting.  One thing 
that strikes me is that the different languages evolve somewhat 
slowly over periods of 100s of years, sometimes 1000s.  If the other 
magical schools were founded around the same time as Hogwarts, would 
it be logical to assume that one school was developed in each of the 
regions speaking the main languages at the time?  So, our search for 
where all the magical schools should be should perhaps be based on 
language rather than geography. Although Latin seems to be the basis 
for most of the spells. Hmmmmm.

ALthough a linguistic analysis of the origin of magical schools is I 
am sure pretty nutty, since JKR probably just arbitrarilly just 
picked  a few venues for the 3 schools she has made up so far.

--Joywitch




From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 25 03:19:58 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:19:58 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <8vi65v+l3gb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B644E028.8681%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6041

dave said,
>> JKR has always said she loves to read, and if she read Clancy,
>> well a secret Navy base would also make a great secret school,
>> would it not?

to which Joywitch replied,
> Somehow, I just simply dont see JKR as the type of person who reads
> Tom Clancy.  Granted that this is strictly my personal impression,
> and is based on nothing but my own little brainwaves, but I just
> really dont think so.

Hmm. I agree that the Poliyarniyy (correct Russian-English transliteration,
BTW) Inlet, where the movie version of Hunt for Red October (one of my
all-time faves) begins, is a fantastic place for Durmstrang. However, it
would be particularly interesting were it to move about -- winter term in,
say, the southern fjords, and summer up around the Novaya Zemlya islands
north of Russia. Well, it would make for some fascinating backdrops anyway.

--John

=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

George Bush: Electile Dysfunction complicated by Premature Congratulations.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 25 04:00:12 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 04:00:12 -0000
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <B644E028.8681%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <8vndgc+rquq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6042

John,

Isn't it a great shot of the boomer leaving the barn at the start of 
the Hunt for Red October, it is what I picture every time I read the 
GoF. For those of you who haven't seen it, go rent it! you will 
picture Durmstrang there on the shores and their ship there in 
the inlet. 

Has to the where abouts of  Beauxbaton, I would think the south 
of France in the country near Monaco. This would provide very 
climate weather suited to silk robes. But I find Fleur's attitude 
very Parisian, no offense to those Parisians out there, but my 
ex-girlfriend is Parisian and everytime Fleur talks I picture her, 
and her snobby attitude. Now I have spent a lot of time in Paris 
and it is wonderful but the people do act like Fleur. Now it has 
been some time since I practiced my French, but isn't Fleur 
Delacour "Flower of the Heart"?

TTFN,

Dave





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 25 04:29:39 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:29:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in ...
References: <bc.c9c802f.274e6c83@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001601c05698$542b1060$8bc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6043


----- Original Message -----
From: <nodigio at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just
arrived in ...


> In a message dated 11/22/2000 10:22:17 PM Central Standard Time,
> hermione_heidi at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
> > not everybody believes in Jesus Christ and you better remember
> > that.
>
> Threats??????  Whatever for?  Just because one is not a follower of a
> specific religious leader is not a valid reason for making threats.  A
> specific religious creed is not promoted in the HP books.  Although it is
> possible that assorted articles and such containing references to
religions
> and HP which may be of interest to more open-minded members of this list,
it
> is to be hoped one would be mature enough to appreciate the shared
> information.

Although Christianity is not actively promulgated in the HP saga, JKR has
nevertheless plugged into one of its most potent myths, the Redeemer-Child
whose purity shall regenerate the world.  I recall this verse of the poet
Robert Southwell (1561-1595) from its inclusion in Benjamin Britten's
Ceremony of Carols.  Just substitute Harry for Christ and Voldy for Satan,
and you'll see how near a match it is.

This little Babe so few days old,
Is come to rifle Satan's fold
All hell doth at his presence quake
Though he himself for cold do shake
For in this weak unarmed wise
The gates of hell he will surprise

With tears he fights and wins the field
His naked breast stands for a shield
His battering shot are babish cries
His arrows looks of weeping eyes
His martial ensigns Cold and Need
And feeble Flesh his warrior's steed

His camp is pitched in a stall
His bulwark but a broken wall
The crib his trench, haystalks his stakes
Of shepherds he his muster makes;
And thus, as sure his foe to wound,
The angels' trumps alarum sound.

My soul, with Christ join thou in fight;
Stick to the tents that he hath pight
Within his crib is surest ward;
This little babe will be thy guard.
If thou wilt foil thy foes with joy,
Then flit not from this heavenly Boy.

Southwell, a Catholic in the anti-Catholic Elizabethan era, was imprisoned
in 1593, tortured at least 13 times, and was finally hanged and quartered at
Tyburn in 1595.

 - CMC






From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Nov 25 04:29:57 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 04:29:57 -0000
Subject: loya;ty among deatheaters
In-Reply-To: <3A1D1202.A005C147@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <8vnf85+mca0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6044

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Rita Winston wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > > Junior's loyalty to Voldemort is made abundantly clear.
> >
> > I always wonder WHY is Jr (and the Lestranges) so *loyal* to V?
> > Loyalty is supposed to be a virtue that the Death Eaters abandoned
> > when they betrayed their friends and relatives to the Dark Side.
> 
> I'm not sure this was loyalty in the same way that, say Ron & 
Hermione &
> Harry are (when not having fights) loyal to each other  - we don't 
know
> enough about the Lestranges, but I can imagine Barty Crouch helping 
them out
> with their Evil Plan to find voldemort by any means necessary not 
out of
> "loyalty" but out of desparation to recapture the power they could 
have had
> if Voldemort had been able to take over (although there's the issue 
of *why*
> anyone would want to find the defeated & powerless Voldemort in the 
first
> place, because how much power could he provide to his followers in 
those
> defeated circumstances?)

It's about malice and revenge -- and the thirst for power over others.
Evil people love to intimidate, terrorize, and do with other what they
will and demand and get services from others. They support Voldemort
because they are enraged and contemptuous at Dumbledore, et al. and 
refuse to be defeated.






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 25 04:39:18 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:39:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
References: <20001124081753.17718.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c05699$acd689a0$8bc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6045


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Gray" <MikeSusanGray at Swissonline.ch>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 3:17 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings



> (2) I spent a week north of Boston and paid a visit to
> Salem, MA--the spiritual Patria of Jerry Falwell,
> erstwhile home of witch burnings

I am certain you are speaking in jest, well-aware that Salem drowned and
hung her witches, but burnt not a one of them. And you certainly do not mean
to mention a media hotdog like Jerry Falwell in the same breath as Cotton
Mather, Simon Bradstreet or William Stoughton - that would be like equating
Gilderoy Lockhart with Mad-Eye Moody.

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 25 04:48:39 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:48:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore in Florida
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001121125111.00d93b30@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c0569a$fb39dec0$8bc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6046


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Hardenbrook" <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 3:53 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore in Florida


> I know a lot of people don't want politics on this list, but
> I can't help asking if anyone else glued to CNN through
> the Florida Recount has seen that Broward County Judge
> who looks like Dumbledore?  (Complete with long white
> beard and half-moon spectacles)

I'm afraid its probably Ludo Bagman on Polyjuice.

    - CMC




From editor at texas.net  Sat Nov 25 04:47:39 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:47:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
References: <20001124081753.17718.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com> <004e01c05699$acd689a0$8bc54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <3A1F446B.7A90F964@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6047

Caius Marcius wrote:

> I am certain you are speaking in jest, well-aware that Salem drowned and
> hung her witches,

<usage mode/on>
" 'Hanged' is most appropriate for official executions,...but 'hung' is also
used. 'Hung' is more appropriate for less formal hangings." (out of Webster's,
examples deleted). Soooo, depending on the formality of the proceedings, Caius,
wouldn't the witches have been hanged?

Even as I accept that all languages change, I bemoan the everpresent creep of
regularity into the wonderful, weird, strong English verbs. Alas.
<usage mode/off>

--Amanda




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 25 06:23:38 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:23:38 -0000
Subject: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <20001124081753.17718.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vnlta+oiv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6048

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Mike Gray wrote:

> (3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or anybody
> else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to save
> Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible answer:
> they weren't allowed to use any spell more than once.

I've already read the discussion of whether a summoning spell will 
work on a person and whether it will work under water; another 
question is whether it will work on something which is tied down? The 
cushions in class, the candies in the twins' pockets, and Harry's 
Firebolt weren't tied down, but Ron *was* tied up.

> > Komodo dragons [eat] full-grown goats ...
> 
> Oh dear.  I manage to clamber onto the net during my
> first vacation in an entire year, and what do I find?!

She also mentioned that they eat human people, so you're in the same 
boat we are. 

> And on that note: may all you Americans enjoy
> excellent digestive performance--and may everyone else
> (including the Americans) enjoy love, plenty and gratitude!  

Thank you.
>  
> BTW, are there spells to cure heartburn or constipation ... or are
> laxative spells classed as Dark Magic?

I am sad that you are not feeling well. Is it the fault of 
travelling? Were you poisoned by recycled air in the airplane? Madam 
Pomfrey would be the expert in the above-mentioned spells, but I bet 
they are probably herbs. I remember off-hand that peppermint tea is 
supposed to be a digestive, and comfrey is supposed to be good for 
colds and sniffles but my teacher said it is carcinogenic.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 25 06:31:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:31:05 -0000
Subject: Language minutiae
In-Reply-To: <8vmajd+32t1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vnmb9+lr8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6049

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

> ALthough a linguistic analysis of the origin of magical schools is
> I am sure pretty nutty, since JKR probably just arbitrarilly just 
> picked  a few venues for the 3 schools she has made up so far.

LOL. I love the language discussion, your witty phraseology, and 
making up more schools of magic. Back when we were on Yahoo, I 
asserted that the wizarding school which must exist in Iraq uses 
Aramaic as the language of instruction and, being the first school, 
has a really imaginative name like "The School".  And the wizarding 
school which must exist in Egypt and probably was the second 
school, uses Coptic as the language of instruction and has a much 
more creative name "The School of Magic". And then I wondered, when 
they eventually change to using classical Arabic as the language of 
instruction (having already changed from Sumerian to Babylonian to 
Aramaic in one case, from Old Egyptian to Middle Egyptian to Coptic 
in the other case), will they merge?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 25 06:33:10 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:33:10 -0000
Subject: French (was: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <8vndgc+rquq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vnmf6+hc2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6050

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasberg at i... wrote:

> isn't Fleur Delacour "Flower of the Heart"?

That's what I thought, but in one of the recent on-line chats, 
someone asked that question and JKR said No, it is Flower of the 
Court, of the Heart would be Delacoeur.




From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sat Nov 25 06:43:19 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:43:19 -0000
Subject: French (was: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
In-Reply-To: <8vnmf6+hc2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vnn27+utjo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6051

Thanks, that may also explain her attitude she may be nobility of 
some type.

D




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 24 15:41:35 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:41:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
References: <20001124142237.18222.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <020501c0562d$07567ec0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6052

How do I explain my thinking on this post-turkeyized day?

Arghh..

Ok.  Here's my attempt!  The apparating would be the same label of spell
(transfiguration, DA, etc) as the summoning spell.  If you summon someone
you'd be forcing them into apparating. Since apparating is illegal without a
license, and as Hermione puts it so repetively, no apparating in Hogwarts,
perhaps personal summoning isn't allowed either.

(Yes, I am trying to find things to back up my view!  I'm pulling them out
of the turkey....)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Stub" <rhodhry at yahoo.no>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings


> The banishing charm does work on professor Flitwick,
> though.  It seems likely to me that banishing and
> summoning work on the same general principle, but
> adapted differently, so what works for one, would work
> also for the other.
>
> --- Denise Rogers <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> skrev: >
> Perhaps since Ron's not inanimate, this spell
> > wouldn't work on him like it
> > would a broom, which hasn't any feelings?
> >
> > Wonders if you can summon mice?  Make a good
> > experiment to test my
> > theory....
> >
> >
> >
> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
> >
> >
> > > > (3) Another old chestnut: why didn't Harry (or
> > > > anybody
> > > > else, for that matter) use a summoning spell to
> > save
> > > > Ron during the second task in GoF? Possible
> > answer:
> > > > they weren't allowed to use any spell more than
> > > > once.
> > >
> > > I would presume that water poses an obstacle for
> > that
> > > spell - my impression is that in many variants of
> > > folklore, water is an inhibitor for magic.  Of
> > course,
> > > Harry and the other Hogwarts-students could just
> > be
> > > obsessed with finding complicated solutions, where
> > a
> > > simpler solution would have sufficed.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://im.yahoo.com
> >
> > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> "There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred
and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and
sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
> ---------------------------------------------
> Christian Stub
> Student of Technology, architectura navalis
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Nov 25 10:56:16 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:56:16 +0000
Subject: Casting/JKR - 'scraping the barrel' news
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001125105616.0090bf90@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6053

I was just watching a kids' TV programme where the presenter interviewed a
contestant in a game they were playing and said: "I hear you're working on a
certain film about a boy who's a wizard?"

[Neil leaps from sofa and cranks up volume]

"I'm not allowed to say anything," came the blank reply.

"It's....?"

"Harry Potter," mumbled the horrified contestant, looking as if she expected
to be hit by a lightning bolt.

Two things:

1. It seems clear that the cast of the WB film have been sworn to secrecy on
pain of death, but what would be the penalty if they revealed details in an
interview?  For the extras, I guess they'd be sacked, but what about the
main cast?  If they've signed something that says they must not discuss the
film, could they be sued for breach of contract?
 
2. The woman interviewed above was a dwarf. I'd assume she's in the
Gringott's scenes, but I was wondering what other parts she might be
playing.  Perhaps she's a stunt double for Hermione?

**

More fascinating news this week: Britain's highest-earning woman, JK Rowling
(or JK Towling as one news report announced) has received another honorary
degree, from Napier University, Edinburgh.  

Oh, and a late Happy Thanksgiving to all our US members!  Apart from eating
turkey or counting chads, what do you guys actually do on this holiday?

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From john at walton.to  Sat Nov 25 13:42:09 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:42:09 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings (OT)
In-Reply-To: <3A1F446B.7A90F964@texas.net>
Message-ID: <B6457231.86A2%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6054

>> I am certain you are speaking in jest, well-aware that Salem drowned and
>> hung her witches,
> 
> <usage mode/on>
> " 'Hanged' is most appropriate for official executions,...but 'hung' is also
> used. 'Hung' is more appropriate for less formal hangings." (out of Webster's,
> examples deleted). Soooo, depending on the formality of the proceedings,
> Caius,
> wouldn't the witches have been hanged?
> 
> Even as I accept that all languages change, I bemoan the everpresent creep of
> regularity into the wonderful, weird, strong English verbs. Alas.
> <usage mode/off>
> 
> --Amanda

::sticks tongue out:: Spot the editor! ::points at Amanda:: Heheheheheeee...

--John, in very childish mode today :)
=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

George Bush: Electile Dysfunction complicated by Premature Congratulations.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Nov 25 16:37:46 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:37:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting/JKR - 'scraping the barrel' news
References: <1.5.4.32.20001125105616.0090bf90@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A1FEADA.3F9CF985@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6055

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> 1. It seems clear that the cast of the WB film have been sworn to
> secrecy on pain of death, but what would be the penalty if they
> revealed details in an interview?  For the extras, I guess they'd be
> sacked, but what about the main cast?  If they've signed something
> that says they must not discuss the film, could they be sued for
> breach of contract?

I'm not an entertainment lawyer type, but I would imagine they've all
signed confidentiality agreements.  The typical remedy in a standard
commercial confidentiality agreement is an injunction against further
breaches & the possibility of monetary damages.  The extras & bit
players probably would be fired & replaced.  The more major characters
would maybe get reprimanded, ordered via court order not to violate the
agreement again, docked some of their pay perhaps . . . possibly fired &
replaced if WB chose to go that severe route (and wanted to interrupt
filming & re-cast a major character).  There are probably some
entertainment law remedies that I'm just not thinking of since I've
never practiced in that area.

> Oh, and a late Happy Thanksgiving to all our US members!  Apart from
> eating turkey or counting chads, what do you guys actually do on this
> holiday?

Watch the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade in NY, watch lots of football
(American) on the tv all day and eat .... and eat . . . . and eat ...
and eat all day long (turkey, dressing (stuffing if you're a Yankee),
cranberries, mashed potatoes, pumpkin pie & lots of other good stuff).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 25 17:19:11 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:19:11 -0000
Subject: Language minutiae
In-Reply-To: <8vnmb9+lr8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vosaf+4j1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6056

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > ALthough a linguistic analysis of the origin of magical schools is
> > I am sure pretty nutty, since JKR probably just arbitrarilly just 
> > picked  a few venues for the 3 schools she has made up so far.
> 
> LOL. I love the language discussion, your witty phraseology, and 
> making up more schools of magic. Back when we were on Yahoo, I 
> asserted that the wizarding school which must exist in Iraq uses 
> Aramaic as the language of instruction and, being the first school, 
> has a really imaginative name like "The School".  And the wizarding 
> school which must exist in Egypt and probably was the second 
> school, uses Coptic as the language of instruction and has a much 
> more creative name "The School of Magic". And then I wondered, when 
> they eventually change to using classical Arabic as the language of 
> instruction (having already changed from Sumerian to Babylonian to 
> Aramaic in one case, from Old Egyptian to Middle Egyptian to Coptic 
> in the other case), will they merge?

And I am convinced that the U.S. magic school, in the truly inventive 
style of those Puritan settlers, is called New Hogwarts.  Although by 
now they have probably sold the rights to the name and it is 
officially called The Panasonic School of Magic.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 25 17:22:12 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:22:12 -0000
Subject: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <020501c0562d$07567ec0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8vosg4+qaen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6057

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> How do I explain my thinking on this post-turkeyized day?
> 
> Arghh..
> 
> Ok.  Here's my attempt!  The apparating would be the same label of 
spell
> (transfiguration, DA, etc) as the summoning spell.  If you summon 
someone
> you'd be forcing them into apparating. Since apparating is illegal 
without a
> license, and as Hermione puts it so repetively, no apparating in 
Hogwarts,
> perhaps personal summoning isn't allowed either.
> 
> (Yes, I am trying to find things to back up my view!  I'm pulling 
them out
> of the turkey....)

On that note, does anyone have a spell for making your relatives go 
home?  Mine have been here since Tuesday, they have eaten me out of 
house and home, and I need to get some work done!  Familius 
Goawayus!  Paternalis Splitis!  Aaaargh!!!!!!!!!

--Joywitch




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 25 17:58:45 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:58:45 -0000
Subject: OT - Can anyone place this author?
Message-ID: <001201c05709$5c16e3a0$2b24073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6058

Help - I've been desperately trying to remember the author of some books I read when I was at school.  She wrote several collections of short stories - she wrote quite a few about one family in particular, one of which focused on a Hairloom, and another which was about a girl who found a record, which when played took her to a beautiful garden - I think she might have been sick or something.

I'm afraid I can't remember much else, except for the fact that I loved them to bits, as this was about 15 years ago, but I figured if anyone might know, it would be someone on this list.
 
All the stories focused on fantasy of some sort, and I'm desperate to see if I can find out the author and get copies of them, but I can't even remember the title.  If anyone can help I'd be eternally grateful.

Alix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Nov 25 17:37:09 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:37:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanksgiving
References: <1.5.4.32.20001125105616.0090bf90@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A1FF8C5.FF42A090@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6059

Neil Ward wrote:

> I was just watching a kids' TV programme where the presenter interviewed a
> contestant in a game they were playing and said: "I hear you're working on a
> certain film about a boy who's a wizard?"
>
> [Neil leaps from sofa and cranks up volume]
>

<Snip>

> Oh, and a late Happy Thanksgiving to all our US members!  Apart from eating
> turkey or counting chads, what do you guys actually do on this holiday?
>
> Neil

Thanks for the tidbits of news that you folks across the big pond are so
obligingly providing.

Thanksgiving is very much a family holiday.  Some people might go to
church the
night before, to a Thanksgiving service.  You try to get together with
members
of your family to celebrate it--it's one of the biggest travel days of
the year
in the States.  For those who don't have families, friends will gather
together
(sometimes called "orphans thanksgiving").  People really do try to
avoid
spending this holiday alone.  (I have a scene in The Wild Swans showing
one such
orphan's thanksgiving get together.)

Turkey is the traditional food, will all sorts of high-caloric
accompaniments,
as Penny described.  Long distance calls to other family members are
traditional, too.  After the meal, many watch American football or take
furtive
catnaps.  Everyone feels quite logy from eating so much.

The day after Thanksgiving many people also have off work, and it's the
kickoff
of the Christmas shopping season.  There are many sales, and the stores
are a
mad house.

I remember when I was studying at Cambridge (I was over there for about
five
months in 1982) the ONLY time I ever got homesick was when the American
students
in my group was preparing a Thanksgiving dinner, and I desperately
wanted to
make pumpkin bread, because that's one thing my family always served,
and I kept
popping in and out of all the specialty food stores in Cambridge asking
the
sales people, "Do you have canned pumpkin?" and they'd look at me as if
I was
nuts and say, "No," backing away slowly.  After about the sixth store, I
realized I wasn't going to find it, and I remember standing there in the
aisle,
fighting off tears because there would be no pumpkin bread this year at
Thanksgiving.

Ridiculous, but true.  As I say, it was the only time I was homesick.
Otherwise, I enjoyed my stay England tremendously.

This Thanksgiving, instead of eating turkey with my sister's family (the
original plan) I spent it at the hospital watching as the doctor
administered an
I.V. drip to my youngest daughter (who had a fever of 105 from strep
throat).  I
celebrated the holiday by offering fervent thanks for modern
antibiotics.

She's home now, and on the mend.  My sister and brother-in-law later
delivered
their turkey leftovers to us later that night.

Cheers,
Peg



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Nov 25 19:38:01 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:38:01 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <020501c0562d$07567ec0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
References: <20001124142237.18222.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> <020501c0562d$07567ec0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <n6402to1grej2t3qiasd1ictjcqvshilg1@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6060

On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:41:35 -0600, "Denise Rogers"
<gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ok.  Here's my attempt!  The apparating would be the same label of spell
>(transfiguration, DA, etc) as the summoning spell.  If you summon someone
>you'd be forcing them into apparating. Since apparating is illegal without a
>license, and as Hermione puts it so repetively, no apparating in Hogwarts,
>perhaps personal summoning isn't allowed either.

I have just finished listening to the Stephen Fry CDs of Prisoner of
Azkaban, and there was a scene where Snape summoned Lupin to his
office after catching Harry with the Marauder's Map. Lupin crawled out
of the fireplace, and I wonder which spell Snape has used to make him
come. Apparently Lupin had no choice but appearing in Snape's
fireplace. Since apparting is not allowed in Hogwarts, there must be
other charms that have a similar effect.

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Nov 25 20:45:11 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:45:11 -0000
Subject: Book Covers News;  Group Navigation
Message-ID: <8vp8cn+a5ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6061

HP book cover fans, please take a look at:

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/covergallery.htm

I was able to give the webmaster a few of our cover art
files to improve his collection, but he has by far the best
collection I've seen.

--------------------------------------

I've created a new file to expedite jumping between the
different HPfGU e-Groups.  It's at the following URL:

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/++Portkey.html

There's a copy of Portkey.html in the Files area of this and the 
other HPfGU sibling groups, which should make navagating easier.  

I hope that someone will attempt to post a new file to the Graphics 
eGroup and let me know if it is working OK. You should be able
to view or post without joining.

-Jim Flanagan





From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 25 21:13:05 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:13:05 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book Covers News;  Group Navigation
References: <8vp8cn+a5ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003501c05724$8200bee0$2b24073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6062

Thanks for the link, Jim.  It's really fascinating to see how other cultures
interpret our heroes.  I really like some of them, especially the
Netherlands and the German adult editions.

Some are mystifying though - I don't understand why Harry's wearing a rat
hat on the Italian PS (anyone got any thoughts or answers to that one?) and
the Finnish cover made me think that one of the future revelations might be
that Harry is in fact not James' son, but Elvis Costello's.  If so, does
that mean it'll be Oliver's Army, and not the Order of the Phoenix, who are
leading the fight against Voldemort? *g*

Alix


----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Flanagan <jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 8:45 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book Covers News; Group Navigation


> HP book cover fans, please take a look at:
>
> http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/covergallery.htm
>
> I was able to give the webmaster a few of our cover art
> files to improve his collection, but he has by far the best
> collection I've seen.
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> I've created a new file to expedite jumping between the
> different HPfGU e-Groups.  It's at the following URL:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/++Portkey.html
>
> There's a copy of Portkey.html in the Files area of this and the
> other HPfGU sibling groups, which should make navagating easier.
>
> I hope that someone will attempt to post a new file to the Graphics
> eGroup and let me know if it is working OK. You should be able
> to view or post without joining.
>
> -Jim Flanagan
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 25 22:30:58 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:30:58 -0000
Subject: Book Covers News;  Group Navigation
In-Reply-To: <003501c05724$8200bee0$2b24073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8vpej2+sdej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6063

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> Thanks for the link, Jim.  It's really fascinating to see how other 
cultures
> interpret our heroes.  I really like some of them, especially the
> Netherlands and the German adult editions.
> 
> Some are mystifying though - I don't understand why Harry's wearing 
a rat
> hat on the Italian PS (anyone got any thoughts or answers to that 
one?) 

We have had a couple of discussions about those wacky Italian 
covers.  The most logical answer that anyone has come up with is that 
they simply forgot to actually read the books before they drew the 
pictures.  Either that or they are hitting the old vino pretty hard 
and seeing giant rats and enormous flying books and gigantic flying 
birds (although I guess that could be the front half of Buckbeak).  
There really is just no explaining the Italians, I suppose.

--Joywitch




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 25 22:41:56 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:41:56 -0800
Subject: schools / "Hairloom" / Summoning
Message-ID: <3A204033.395D226A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6064

Joywitch wrote:
> And I am convinced that the U.S. magic school, in the truly inventive
style of
> those Puritan settlers, is called New Hogwarts. Although by now they
have
> probably sold the rights to the name and it is officially called The
Panasonic
> School of Magic.

I still love your wit. But there is very much question as to when
wizarding schools (of European language and traditional) were first
founded in the Americas. I'm inclined to believe that wizarding folk
were slow to emigrate and avoided Jamestown, Plymouth Rock, and covered
wagons. When did wizarding folk begin to emigrate, and once they did
begin to emigrate, how long did it take them to found their own schools
instead of sending their children to the home country for education? And
how many schools? Do you think there are only New Hogwarts and
Nouveauxbatons for norteamericanos? I could go on for pages on this
topic.

Alix wrote:
> Help - I've been desperately trying to remember the author of some
books I
> read when I was at school.   She wrote several collections of short
stories - she
> wrote quite a few about one family in particular, one of which focused
on a
> Hairloom,

Hairloom: it was an embroidery of a picture of that beautiful garden
with a gazebo, and all the embroidery threads were hairs from the heads
of family members (the original 'locks' that were sentimentally put in
'lockets')? I think that was a whole novel that was in the Young Adult
section of my childhood public library. I can't remember the author or
title either, but I was convinced that one of her books was titled THE
SECRET GARDEN until the movie came out and was a TOTALLY DIFFERENT
story.

Monika wrote:
> there was a scene where Snape summoned Lupin to his office after
catching
> Harry with the Marauder's Map. Lupin crawled out of the fireplace, and
I
> wonder which spell Snape has used to make him come. Apparently Lupin
had
> no choice but appearing in Snape's  fireplace. Since Apparating is not
allowed in
> Hogwarts, there must be other charms that have a similar effect.

Snape threw a handful of powder into the fire before shouting: "Lupin!",
which reminded me of Floo Powder. I think John Walton (crazy ivan)'s new
fic on ffnet briefly explains that that stuff was Summoning Powder which
is similar to Floo Powder but not exactly the same. It's not Apparating
as it is travelling through the fireplaces rather than teleporting
instantaneously. It's not the Summoning Charm that we have seen used
with incantation "Accio!" as it is travelling through the fireplaces
rather than flying through the air.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Nov 25 22:43:43 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:43:43 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <20001122222518.1509.qmail@web1504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vpfav+jcla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6065

One thing struck me while I was reading the Crouch summary, that 
Crouch, Sr. is a really sad, tragic character.  His only son has 
turned into a horrible, insane, cold-blooded criminal; his wife is 
dead; he lives only for the rules and clearly never has any fun.  The 
people who truly love or admire him, such as Winky and Percy Weasley, 
he barely notices.  The one time (probably) that he breaks the rules, 
in response to his wifes dying wish, he does so in a way which 
seriously endangers his community and eventually results in his own 
death at his sons hands.  There arent really any other characters in 
the HP books who lead such unhappy, tragic lives, although plenty of 
characters manage to overcome tragedy (Harry, Neville, Sirius).

--Joywitch




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Nov 25 23:07:09 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:07:09 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <8vpfav+jcla@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vpgmt+6lls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6066

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

> One thing struck me while I was reading the Crouch summary,

Yes, he is a tragic, unhappy man. He also has a weird name (there 
is a public intellectual named Stanley Crouch, and whenever anyone 
refers to Stanley Crouch in a magazine article or something, I say: 
"What *kind* of *name* is *Crouch*?") and JKR would not have chosen 
it without a reason.

I had been thinking that crouching down is a way of lowering oneself, 
so perhaps she was commenting that he had lowered himself below his 
ethical standards (presumably by that historically pivotal incident 
of rule-breaking -- but perhaps by having turned as cruel as the Dark 
Side in his war against it), but that would have been much more clear 
if she had named him Bartemius Stoop.

Because 'crouch' is so often heard in the phrase 'crouched to 
spring', referring to the way a feline or other predator gets lower 
by bending its legs so as to jump with more power when it pounces 
on its prey. Oh, that is Crouch the younger, preparing to pounce upon 
Harry! I get it now: she needed a name to fit both the stooped 
father and the predatory son. 




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sat Nov 25 23:11:41 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:11:41 -0000
Subject: OT "Hairloom"
References: <3A204033.395D226A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <001e01c05735$13b84320$e919073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6067

Catlady said:

> Alix wrote:
> > Help - I've been desperately trying to remember the author of some
> books I
> > read when I was at school.   She wrote several collections of short
> stories - she
> > wrote quite a few about one family in particular, one of which focused
> on a
> > Hairloom,
>
> Hairloom: it was an embroidery of a picture of that beautiful garden
> with a gazebo, and all the embroidery threads were hairs from the heads
> of family members (the original 'locks' that were sentimentally put in
> 'lockets')? I think that was a whole novel that was in the Young Adult
> section of my childhood public library. I can't remember the author or
> title either, but I was convinced that one of her books was titled THE
> SECRET GARDEN until the movie came out and was a TOTALLY DIFFERENT
> story.

Actually this sounds like different book to the one I'm searching for, but
if it's the one I'm thinking of, I do know the author this time!  It sounds
like one of the Green Knowe series, by L M Boston - I can't remember which
one, but there's a fire at the house, and the mistress' jewels go missing,
and she is told that the only way she will ever recover them is by making a
picture of the house out of the hair of every single person who was in the
house on the night of the fire.  They're brilliant books and come highly
recommended from this quarter.

The 'hairloom' I was thinking of is exactly that - a loom that weaves hair,
and I'm blowed if I can remember anything else about these books!  Thanks
for the suggestion though, Catlady!

Alix





From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sat Nov 25 23:55:27 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:55:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Apparating/summoning (was Re: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
Message-ID: <20001125235527.24430.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6068

We do not really know that you cannot apparate from
one spot within Hogwarts grounds to another spot
within Hogwarts grounds, do we.  I guess it all
depends on wether the block is a bubble-shaped shell,
preventing apparation through the 'wall'/barrier, but
not disrupting intra-Hogwarts movements, or a
bubble-shaped field-distortion (for lack of a better
word off the top of my head), disrupting apparation
through the entirety of the perimeter. 

As for the summoning-spell, I do not believe it works
on the same principle as apparation.  The
summoning-charm, as I understand it, causes the
desired object (and I believe it can be used on
persons too) to zoom towards you.  Apparation seems to
be quite similar to portkeys, as far as result is
concerned.  It involves the risk of being stuck with
part of you still at the point of origin, and the
other part at the point of destination, if not
performed properly.

--- Monika Huebner <monika at darwin.inka.de> skrev: > On
Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:41:35 -0600, "Denise Rogers"
> <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Ok.  Here's my attempt!  The apparating would be
> the same label of spell
> >(transfiguration, DA, etc) as the summoning spell. 
> If you summon someone
> >you'd be forcing them into apparating. Since
> apparating is illegal without a
> >license, and as Hermione puts it so repetively, no
> apparating in Hogwarts,
> >perhaps personal summoning isn't allowed either.
> 
> I have just finished listening to the Stephen Fry
> CDs of Prisoner of
> Azkaban, and there was a scene where Snape summoned
> Lupin to his
> office after catching Harry with the Marauder's Map.
> Lupin crawled out
> of the fireplace, and I wonder which spell Snape has
> used to make him
> come. Apparently Lupin had no choice but appearing
> in Snape's
> fireplace. Since apparting is not allowed in
> Hogwarts, there must be
> other charms that have a similar effect.
> 
> Monika
> 
> 
> --
> Books and Movies
> http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sun Nov 26 00:45:25 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:45:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Schools all around
Message-ID: <20001126004525.13300.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6069

The matter of schools is indeed interesting.  It isn't
only a linguistics game, but also a numbers-game. 
Alas, I think it unlikely that there was ever a
noveauxbatons, as there would be very few
French-speaking wizards in North America.  If one
assumes uniform distribution of wizarding abilities in
(at least European) populations, one can get an
indication of the ability of a district, country or
language to maintain its own school of magic.  I
believe that the limits for when a school is able to
sustain a sufficient quality-level must lie at around
250-300 students in Hogwarts-age (henceforth called
Hogwarts-number), equal to 36-43 graduating students
each year.  This is based on JKR's statement that
Hogwarts has 1000 students.

The number of students at school, however, will in
some countries differ from the Hogwarts-number.  In
Norway, for instance, the educational system is
different from Britain, with the result that Norwegian
magical children would have to go magical school from
they are 6 years old (7 years old before 1997), and
stay till they are 19 years old.

French-speaking Canada has a Hogwarts-number of only
110, while English-speaking Canadians have a
Hogwarts-number of 263.  It is of course possible that
Canada has a bilingual magical education, which of
course gives Canada the ability to maintain its own
French education.

In Europe, all French education will be at
Beaux-batons, which is not surprising, with exception,
perhaps, for those from Switzerland (which again might
have its own multilingual education, for reason of its
national pride).  Beauxbatons will then be about the
same size as Hogwarts.  There is the matter of the
French colonies and territories, as well, and former
such - do they have their own setup, or do they send
their magical offspring back to France?

English-speaking Canada and Australia both have barely
the numbers needed to maintain a school.  New Zealand
has less than 10 students graduating each year, and
will have to join forces with Australia, sending their
magical children to ANZAM (Australia-New Zealand
Academy of Magic).  If Canada has joint education, I
suspect it will be with USA, as I understand Canadian
education to be more similar to US schools than to UK
schools.  South-Africa is an interesting country - do
white south-africans go to Hogwarts, while those of
aboriginal african descent have more traditional
institutions, what was the view on apartheid in
South-African magic, was magical South-Africa a victim
of the UN embargo, etc.?

Germany can easily have its own school of magic -
within Europe there are 91 mill German-speakers,
giving a Hogwarts-number of ca. 1500 (50% more than
Hogwarts).

All the major slavic languages in Europe, except
Russian, total at around 160 mill, giving the
Hogwarts-number at around 2710.  I set the number of
Russian-speakers in Europe tentatively at 75 mill (I
don't know where to find out how many Russian speakers
live West of Ural), giving an additional 1200.  If all
of these went to Durmstrang, that would mean
Durmstrang alone was more than twice as big as
Hogwarts and Beauxbatons added together.

I will try to make an organised spreadsheet of
population, wizarding population (based on a
postulation I made some time ago that there are 20 000
wizards living in Britain and Ireland together) and
Hogwarts-numer (number of students in
Hogwarts-equivalent age).

> I still love your wit. But there is very much
> question as to when
> wizarding schools (of European language and
> traditional) were first
> founded in the Americas. I'm inclined to believe
> that wizarding folk
> were slow to emigrate and avoided Jamestown,
> Plymouth Rock, and covered
> wagons. When did wizarding folk begin to emigrate,
> and once they did
> begin to emigrate, how long did it take them to
> found their own schools
> instead of sending their children to the home
> country for education? And
> how many schools? Do you think there are only New
> Hogwarts and
> Nouveauxbatons for norteamericanos? I could go on
> for pages on this
> topic.


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From relliott at jvlnet.com  Sun Nov 26 00:47:00 2000
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (relliott at jvlnet.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:47:00 -0000
Subject: Trelawney's Prediction
Message-ID: <8vpmi4+8ngu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6070

I was wondering about a statement in the book.  In "PA" Professor 
Dumbledore commented about Trelawney's prediction to Harry.  The 
exact quote is "That brings here total of real predictions up to 
tow.  I should offer her a pay raise..."  What was her first 
prediction?  Were we officiall told?




From relliott at jvlnet.com  Sun Nov 26 01:03:58 2000
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle )
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:03:58 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
In-Reply-To: <8vh8en+qscl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vpnhu+s87f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6071

I think that Arabella Figg (AKA.  Mrs. Figg) is Harry's secret 
keeper.  She was referred to in SS and GoF.



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Odile " <oalburquerque at h...> wrote:
> We learn in book 3 that when there is a secret magically stored 
> within a human being, then a person cannot see what has been hidden 
> before  them even if they are staring right at them.  We also 
learned 
> that Dumbledore offered the Potters to be their Secret-Keeper 
instead 
> of Sirius.
> 
> Is it safe to assume that Dumbledore is Harry's Secret-Keeper and 
> therefore, Voldemort cannot find Harry while he is at the 
Dursleys?  
> Or can we assume that Vernon Dursely is the Secret-Keeper, without 
> knowing? (I think it's Dumbledore.)
> 
> 
> Odile




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Sun Nov 26 01:10:59 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:10:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney's Prediction
Message-ID: <20001126011059.14608.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6072

I believe we were not, though I may be mistaken.  It
would not surprise me if it was central to the plot,
and possibly having something to do with why Voldemort
was so intent on killing Harry in the first place.
--- relliott at jvlnet.com skrev: > I was wondering about
a statement in the book.  In
> "PA" Professor 
> Dumbledore commented about Trelawney's prediction to
> Harry.  The 
> exact quote is "That brings here total of real
> predictions up to 
> tow.  I should offer her a pay raise..."  What was
> her first 
> prediction?  Were we officiall told?
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 26 01:22:08 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:22:08 -0000
Subject: Apparating/summoning (was Re: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <20001125235527.24430.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vpok0+tm6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6073

Apparating within Hogwarts doesn't work that is why 
Dumbledore and party blow through the door to save Harry from 
Barty Jr. in GoF. If they could just pop in and surprise him don't 
you think they would?

As to the summoning charm when you Accio it brings the item to 
you. In the 3rd task they talk about an aqualung flying accross the 
countryside. So I think it is nothing like apparation.

D




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 01:30:02 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:30:02 EST
Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang
Message-ID: <4b.3f550f2.2751c19a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6074

Dave said: Now it has been some time since I practiced my French, but isn't 
> "Flower of the Heart"?

Actually, it's "Flower of the Court", like a noblewoman. "Flower of the 
Heart" would be fleur de la coeur, as opposed to fleur de la cour. The "e" 
adds all the difference.

Ellie

> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 26 02:42:02 2000
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:42:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just arrived in the mail today!
Message-ID: <F3213LlkHT9UaEI8RvT00001e4c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6075

I didn't mean to offend you Peg, Neil is right.


_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 26 03:03:16 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:03:16 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <20001126004525.13300.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vpuhk+ik5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6076

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> 
wrote:
> The matter of schools is indeed interesting.  It isn't only a
> linguistics game, but also a numbers-game. Alas, I think it 
> unlikely that there was ever a noveauxbatons, as there would be 
> very few French-speaking wizards in North America.

In my universe, no English speaking or French speaking wizarding 
school was founded in the Americas before 1946. Let me explain.

I have some very strong opinions about wizarding in the New World in 
MY universe,tho' many people claim that my universe is different from 
the real universe. Let me babble one about my universe. North of 
Mexico, the Native American wizarding folk, seeing what Euro-American 
Muggles had done to Native American Muggles, to this day keep 
themselves hidden and secret from Euro-American wizarding folk. 

In Mexico and Central America, the long-established Nahuatl wizarding 
school in central Mexico and Maya wizarding school in Guatemala 
admitted and educated all wizarding children born in their territory 
regardless of race. In South America, wizarding schools were founded 
by mixed groups of founders, some trying to emulate the European 
schools, some trying to emulate the African schools, some trying to 
emulate the South American methods of teaching by apprenticeship. One 
of them is the wizarding school in Brazil where Bill once had (said 
Ron) a pen pal.

I say, very very very few wizarding folk emigrated from Europe to 
the New World (with the possible exception of Iberian wizards and 
witches, whom Ebony suggested had fled extermination by an alliance 
between Torquemada and that era's version of Voldemort. If so, they 
may have influenced the curriculum of the Nahuatl and Maya schools in 
an Iberian direction). I think that African witches and wizards 
avoided the slave catchers, but Ebony knew enough African-American 
oral tradition about them that I might be wrong.

So, in my universe, among white and black people in North America (I 
said norteamericano to show that, to me, 'North America' means North 
America minus Mexico), wizarding children would be born to Muggle 
parents, because that happens, but they would have no one to tell 
them what they are, let alone educate them to use their magic. Thus, 
they would live in the Muggle world as Muggles around whom strange 
things sometimes happen. Thus, no Ministry or Department of Magic to 
make laws and no American Wizarding Association to enforce 
'professional ethics'. North America as the wizarding Wild West. 

This came to the attention of the British and French wizarding 
communities during World War II, when they detected 'wild wizards' 
among the American soldiers. Dumbledore (the auburn-haired Dumbledore 
of Tom Riddle's diary) took time out from fighting Grindelwald and 
teaching school to pursuade some witches to start a good-works 
committee to provide wizards among the GIs with wands and basic 
education. This led to a few marriages between American wizards and 
British witches (maybe some between American witches and British 
wizards, as there were WACs and nurses), which led to some Hogwarts- 
educated witches moving to USA with their husbands, and they wanted 
proper wizarding schools for their children, so they founded them. 

I believe they founded four Hogwarts-inspired schools, one each in 
New England, the South, the Midwest, and California. (I think English 
speaking Canadian students go to the schools in USA.) The New England 
school IS named New Hogwarts (and might be wittily located in Salem 
MA, altho' I suspected Levettown NJ) even tho' it wasn't named by 
Puritans. The California school may be named Hogwest (and is said to 
be located in the Northern California redwood forest, altho' I 
suspected the vast suburban sprawl of the San Fernando Valley). The 
recent success of MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL suggests 
that the Southern school might be in Savannah GA and I have no idea 
of its name. ("Southern School of Sorcery in Savannah" would 
alliterate.) I have even less idea of the Midwestern school.

Wizarding folk in re-building France observed four British-style 
wizarding schools founded in USA and nationalistically felt that the 
honor of France was threatened and sent educated widows to start 
Francophone wizarding schools in New Orleans and Quebec. Joywitch 
said the location of Nouveauxbatons is secret so she can't tell me 
whether it is the one in New Orleans or the one in Quebec. The point, 
however, is that it doesn't matter if the New Orleans school can only 
scrape together enough students to have graduating classes of 2 or 3 
students (in fact, they would boast of such personalized education!) 
because the school was founded and funded for nationalist pride, not 
for an unfilled need in the marketplace.

> The number of students at school, however, will in some countries
> differ from the Hogwarts-number.  In  Norway, for instance, the
> educational system is different from Britain, with the result that
> Norwegian magical children would have to go magical school from
> they are 6 years old (7 years old before 1997), and stay till they
> are 19 years old.

Surely Norway has some way for children to transfer from one school to 
another when their parents move house. When they're old enough to go 
to wizarding school, their old Muggle school can be given 
paperwork indicating that they moved out of town.





From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 26 03:35:27 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:35:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Banish charm
References: <20001124142237.18222.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A2084FF.DE7D2B5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6077

Christian Stub wrote:

> The banishing charm does work on professor Flitwick,
> though.

Okay, I'll admit I'm baffled here. When and where was poor Professor Flitwick banished? This is ringing no bells at all, embarrassingly enough. Surely I'm not *that* old yet?

--Amanda




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Nov 26 04:12:11 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:12:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Good lord, at it again, and the magazine just  arrived in the mail today!
References: <F3213LlkHT9UaEI8RvT00001e4c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A208D9B.8B899BF0@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6078

Heidi Henshaw wrote:

> I didn't mean to offend you Peg, Neil is right.

Oh, I wouldn't say I was offended, exactly--more like . . . politely baffled, I guess.  I
really couldn't figure out what in the Virtues essays could have drawn your response, but
on the other hand, I couldn't remember anything else that had been said about
Christianity lately, since I'd forgotten about Dee's post.  I felt like--what?  Is there
some spinach hanging from my teeth or something?  What on earth did I say wrong???

Anyway, I'm glad we've gotten it all straightened out!

Cheers,
Peg

>>>

"Sorry to hear about old Bothari.," Ivan offered when she'd left.  "Who'd have thought he
could do himself in cleaning weapons after all these years?  Still, there's a bright
side--you've finally got a chance to make time with Elena, without him breathing down
your neck.  So it's not a dead loss."

Miles exhaled carefully, faint with rage and reminded grief.  He does not know, he told
himself.  He cannot know . . . "Ivan, one of these days somebody is going to pull out a
weapon and plug you, and you're going to die in bewilderment, crying, "What did I say?
What did I say?"

"What did I say?" asked Ivan indignantly.

from _The Warrior's Apprentice_ (Lois McMaster Bujold)




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 04:50:05 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:50:05 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <8vpuhk+ik5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vq4pt+hus7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6079

You should write A History of Wizard Schools in the New World, 
Catlady.  And you are right about Nouveaubatons, it has very few 
students.  It was founded at a time when the French-speaking 
population of North America was a much higher percentage of the 
population than it is now (although of course very small in number), 
for the reason that the French speakers REFUSED to send their little 
witches and wizards to English-speaking schools.  Nowadays, there are 
many students from Haiti (where wizarding traditions have long been 
practiced somewhat openly), Martinique, and the other French-speaking 
islands of the Caribbean.

But I am curious.  Why do you say that very few magical Europeans 
emigrated to the New World?  I would have thought that they would be 
just as likely as anyone else to emigrate.

Oh, and I am just tickled pink at your nice comments about my wit.  I 
have received many comments in my life about my sense of humor, most 
of which have been considerably less favorable, so thanks very very 
much.  Also, I found a spell that works to make your relatives go 
away after Thanksgiving.  Just say to them:  Out of food!  It works 
like a charm (so to speak).

--Joywitch




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Nov 26 04:58:01 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 25 Nov 2000 20:58:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] US Thanksgiving activities
Message-ID: <20001126045801.26960.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6080

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20001125/05def934/attachment.ksh>

From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Nov 26 06:35:19 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 06:35:19 -0000
Subject: Banish charm
In-Reply-To: <3A2084FF.DE7D2B5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8vqav7+1dui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6081

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Christian Stub? wrote:
> 
> > The banishing charm does work on professor Flitwick,
> > though.
> 
> Okay, I'll admit I'm baffled here. When and where was poor 
Professor Flitwick banished? This is ringing no bells at all, 
embarrassingly enough. Surely I'm not *that* old yet?
> 
> --Amanda

When the Charms class is practicing their banishing charms, Neville 
is so poor at it that he sends Flitwick sailing across the room. I 
have GF26 written down for that, but since my copy of GF is tucked 
into bed with my 8 year old, I can't double check the chapter for you.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Nov 26 06:48:03 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 06:48:03 -0000
Subject: Apparating/summoning (was Re: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <8vpok0+tm6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vqbn3+nrtg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6082


> As to the summoning charm when you Accio it brings the item to 
> you. In the 3rd task they talk about an aqualung flying accross the 
> countryside. So I think it is nothing like apparation.

I've read these messages with interest, since I'm reworking my spell 
pages in the Lexicon (check out the new version if you're interested; 
there's a link on the existing spell page). Apparition is done by a 
person to themselves, and it's fairly tricky to do correctly. 
Summoning and it's reverse spell, Banishing, are not all that 
difficult. Fourth year students can be expected to master them. They 
are used ON another object. Weight and distance are factors, but 
concentration and strength of the magic power within the wizard are 
more important. As for what I call "fire talking," I see that as the 
magical equivelent of using a telephone. It does not require a wand 
or incantation, which makes it magic but not technically a spell. 
Calling the person's name is how the connection is made to the 
correct fireplace. Anyone can do it, as long as they have the powder 
and a fireplace. When Lupin stepped through, he did so because he 
wanted to, undoubtedly using Floo Powder to do it. 

You can do all this within Hogwarts as long as the fireplaces are 
networked. Probably the internal Floo network of Hogwarts doesn't 
connect with the Floo Network proper, out in the Wizarding World. 
Kind of like a computer network, connected within an organization but 
blocked from the outside world by means of a firewall. Hey...! Well, 
that's cool. I hadn't thought of THAT before I typed it!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon







From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 08:59:34 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:59:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <69.d74d0eb.27522af6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6083

Rita,

Though I agree with you on your location of North American wizard schools for 
the most part, I'm certain that Texan wizard children do not leave the state 
for their education.  I believe the Texas wizarding academy is likely located 
in the middle of the Austin-Kerrville-San Antonio triangle, well concealed by 
both charms and the beautiful Texas hills and situated on the Guadalupe 
River.  Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Nov 26 11:20:20 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:20:20 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <69.d74d0eb.27522af6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8vqrlk+trfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6084

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> Rita,
> 
> Though I agree with you on your location of North American wizard 
schools for 
> the most part, I'm certain that Texan wizard children do not leave 
the state 
> for their education.  I believe the Texas wizarding academy is 
likely located 
> in the middle of the Austin-Kerrville-San Antonio triangle, well 
concealed by 
> both charms and the beautiful Texas hills and situated on the 
Guadalupe 
> River.  Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?
> 
> Love & Light,
> *E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*

Elizabeth--

What a lovely description of the Hill Country.  You don't happen to 
work for the tourism board, do you?  So, Texan wizard children would 
stay instate why?  There would be enough of them to justify a TX 
wizarding school of its own?  They wouldn't dare call it "Lone Star 
Wizards" or something like that, would they?  With an armadillo 
mascot even...

Kelley, down in San Antone'
Yeehaa!-----NOT!!! 




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Nov 26 10:00:06 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:00:06 +0100
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
Message-ID: <nam12tsalne86db74e2ssejfnprs6vc5at@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6085

Hello everyone,

I have already briefly mentioned this in my message concerning the
ancestor/descendant question that seemed to have vanished, at least I
did not get any reaction to it, so I'll try again. Sorry if this has
already been discussed, but I couldn't find anything about it in the
archives.

I always wondered how Sirius managed to get his gold out of his vault
to pay for the firebolt. Until now we have only seen people coming
directly to Gringotts to take money from their vaults and they have to
bring the key to open them. I.e. Dumbledore gave Hagrid the key to
James' and Lily's vault when he and Harry came to London to buy
Harry's school books the first year. 

I doubt that Sirius would still have the key to his vault after twelve
years in Azkaban, and I find it highly unlikely that he gave it to the
goblins before going after Pettigrew. His house might have been sealed
by the ministry after he was arrested, at least I don't think that he
would have been able to retrieve anything from it after twelve years.
But we also know that there are vaults that cannot be opened with a
key but only by a goblin. In his letter at the end of PoA Sirius tells
Harry that he took the gold from his own vault number 711. This vault
happens to be close to the one that contained the philosopher's stone
which had the number 713 and is located in Gringotts' high security
area. Maybe Sirius did not need a key to open his vault, but this led
to the question what he needed a high security vault for. I doubt that
it contains only gold. Any thoughts?

I also wonder why this was taken out of the American edition, it is
still in the British edition including in the audio version of PoA
that has just been published in october. I also saw it in the German
translation. Maybe it's a minor detail without any significance, but
ever since I stumbled upon it I wonder if it will become important
later.

Monika


--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Nov 26 10:00:07 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:00:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating/summoning (was Re: Lizards & Thanksgiving, Musings
In-Reply-To: <8vqbn3+nrtg@eGroups.com>
References: <8vpok0+tm6d@eGroups.com> <8vqbn3+nrtg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8gn12t45m5bki0dkfnlqo9vnnrsqd00id3@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6086

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 06:48:03 -0000, "Steve Vander Ark"
<vderark at bccs.org> wrote:

>Calling the person's name is how the connection is made to the 
>correct fireplace. Anyone can do it, as long as they have the powder 
>and a fireplace. When Lupin stepped through, he did so because he 
>wanted to, undoubtedly using Floo Powder to do it. 

Are you sure he did so because he wanted to? He heard Snape call his
name and then used Floo powder himself to get to Snape's office? I
admit that I haven't thought of this, I just thought it was a strange
incident.

>Kind of like a computer network, connected within an organization but 
>blocked from the outside world by means of a firewall. Hey...! Well, 
>that's cool. I hadn't thought of THAT before I typed it!

Hey, I like this idea a lot!

Monika


--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 26 12:34:04 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:34:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <20001126123404.2091.qmail@web207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6087


--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> 
> Wizarding folk in re-building France observed four
> British-style 
> wizarding schools founded in USA and
> nationalistically felt that the 
> honor of France was threatened and sent educated
> widows to start 
> Francophone wizarding schools in New Orleans and
> Quebec. Joywitch 
> said the location of Nouveauxbatons is secret so she
> can't tell me 
> whether it is the one in New Orleans or the one in
> Quebec. 

I don't know much about the area surrounding New
Orleans, but there is certainly a great deal of
unpopulated space in the province of Quebec. I would
guess the Francophone school would be located there,
not just because I'm Canadian, but because there is
probably more places where it could go undetected with
less use of magic to hide it (less Muggles to hide it
from in some areas). I'm mostly referring to northern
Quebec, so it would also be rather cold which would
less conducive (sp?) to people just 'wandering around
the neighbourhood'.

My two knuts,
Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 26 12:35:20 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:35:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <20001126123520.10206.qmail@web209.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6088


--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> 
> Wizarding folk in re-building France observed four
> British-style 
> wizarding schools founded in USA and
> nationalistically felt that the 
> honor of France was threatened and sent educated
> widows to start 
> Francophone wizarding schools in New Orleans and
> Quebec. Joywitch 
> said the location of Nouveauxbatons is secret so she
> can't tell me 
> whether it is the one in New Orleans or the one in
> Quebec. 

I don't know much about the area surrounding New
Orleans, but there is certainly a great deal of
unpopulated space in the province of Quebec. I would
guess the Francophone school would be located there,
not just because I'm Canadian, but because there is
probably more places where it could go undetected with
less use of magic to hide it (less Muggles to hide it
from in some areas). I'm mostly referring to northern
Quebec, so it would also be rather cold which would
less conducive (sp?) to people just 'wandering around
the neighbourhood'.

My two knuts,
Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/



From amaryllis05 at web.de  Sun Nov 26 15:13:58 2000
From: amaryllis05 at web.de (amaryllis05 at web.de)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:13:58 -0000
Subject: Cuses lesson
Message-ID: <8vr9bm+li24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6089

Hi there,
I`m new in this group and like to greet everybody. After finishing 
the great fourth book I came up with two questions I hope someone can 
answer me. I asked myself why Moody aka Barty Crouch would teach 
Harry how to fight the Imperius curse. Is he just malicious and 
anticipatimg the moment Harry has to confront it ? And second I like 
to know if Wormtail used Voldmort`s wand when he cursed Cedric, since 
he came out of his wand. Thanks for your answers !

Cheers.




From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Sun Nov 26 15:23:57 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:23:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED7D@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6090


> From:	Rita Winston [SMTP:catlady at wicca.net]
> 
> I believe they founded four Hogwarts-inspired schools, one each in 
> New England, the South, the Midwest, and California. (I think English 
> speaking Canadian students go to the schools in USA.) The New England 
> school IS named New Hogwarts (and might be wittily located in Salem 
> MA, altho' I suspected Levettown NJ) even tho' it wasn't named by 
> Puritans. The California school may be named Hogwest (and is said to 
> be located in the Northern California redwood forest, altho' I 
> suspected the vast suburban sprawl of the San Fernando Valley). The 
> recent success of MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL suggests 
> that the Southern school might be in Savannah GA and I have no idea 
> of its name. ("Southern School of Sorcery in Savannah" would 
> alliterate.) I have even less idea of the Midwestern school.
> 
> 
> 
	I don't agree that English speaking Canadians would be going to a US
school. While our school system is similar to the US, most Canadians would
feel more comfortable going to Hogwarts, culturally speaking. Canada and the
US may share a continent (with Mexico), but they are not the same country at
all. We Canadians are still part of the Commonwealth and we strive mightily
to promote ourselves as our own country, with our own history and culture.

	Sure, our most common form of displaying our patriotism may be
through beer commercials, but we're Canadian and proud of it. :-)

	During the last referendum on whether or not Quebec was going to
declare independence, there was a lot of discussion of what would happen to
Atlantic Canada, where I reside. Geographically speaking, we would have been
cut off from the rest of Canada. The consensus? If we had to align ourselves
with a country other than Canada, it would have been Britain. We share more
of a British mindset than an American.   
>  
	I think the Canadian Anglophone version of Hogwarts would be in
northern Ontario, myself. It's isolated and sparsely populated enough to
make it easier to conceal. I admit my memory of Canadian history isn't
perfect, but Ontario makes more sense as a British stronghold. The Canadian
Draco Malfoy would definitely be from Toronto.

	I do agree with Sheryll that Nouveauxbatons could be in northern
Quebec. And I think they have some ripping Quidditch matches with  New
Hogwarts and HogsYork.

	Angela 



From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Sun Nov 26 15:25:28 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:25:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Curses lesson
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED7E@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6091

Barty/Moody was probably doing what the real Moody would have done as a way
of keeping up the impersonation.

Angela

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	amaryllis05 at web.de [SMTP:amaryllis05 at web.de]
> Sent:	Sunday, November 26, 2000 11:14 AM
> To:	HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject:	[HPforGrownups] Cuses lesson
> 
> Hi there,
> I`m new in this group and like to greet everybody. After finishing 
> the great fourth book I came up with two questions I hope someone can 
> answer me. I asked myself why Moody aka Barty Crouch would teach 
> Harry how to fight the Imperius curse. Is he just malicious and 
> anticipatimg the moment Harry has to confront it ? And second I like 
> to know if Wormtail used Voldmort`s wand when he cursed Cedric, since 
> he came out of his wand. Thanks for your answers !
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 



From nodigio at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 15:57:12 2000
From: nodigio at aol.com (nodigio at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:57:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <25.deb89d4.27528cd8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6092

In a message dated 11/26/2000 3:00:54 AM Central Standard Time, 
mlleelizabeth at aol.com writes:


> Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?
> 
> 

Why, it would be called  Longhorn Academy, with House Rattler, House 
Armadillo, House Grackle, and House Skeetshooter.

Noddy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 26 16:20:58 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:20:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
References: <69.d74d0eb.27522af6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A21386A.83122A17@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6093

mlleelizabeth at aol.com wrote:

> Though I agree with you on your location of North American wizard schools for
> the most part, I'm certain that Texan wizard children do not leave the state
> for their education.  I believe the Texas wizarding academy is likely located
> in the middle of the Austin-Kerrville-San Antonio triangle, well concealed by
> both charms and the beautiful Texas hills and situated on the Guadalupe
> River.  Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?

It's in the Wimberley area, tucked into one of those little folds in the hill
country. Lots of the area magic folk own the little shops there.

--Amanda, Texas native, whose mother always swore she was an old witch




From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 26 16:41:28 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:41:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Texas wizarding academy
References: <25.deb89d4.27528cd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A213D37.E53B5DE7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6094

nodigio at aol.com wrote:

> > Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?
>
> Why, it would be called  Longhorn Academy, with House Rattler, House
> Armadillo, House Grackle, and House Skeetshooter.

Please. Grackles are recent immigrants to our state. In 1950s birding lists
they are, believe it or not, listed as "rare." They sort of moved in of
their own volition, and have taken over. Nobody who has been in Texas for
more than two days would name anything but a pesticide, a strain of virulent
bacteria, or some form of explosive after grackles. Skeet shooting is also
too recent.

And to answer Kelley's question, Texas would have its own academy because,
aside from our notorious streak of independence, we were our own country for
a bit and had our own everything. We had an embassy from France, to the
Republic of Texas. I'm betting that the siege of the Alamo ticked off
wizarding folk as much as it did the Texians, and probably the defeat at San
Jacinto had some magical help. The academy probably would have been founded
soon after, in the days of the Republic, on lands granted by the grateful
new government. The French wizards might have helped them set things up,
since the Republic was in contact with France, and the French would have
helped them find one of the few really scenic parts of Texas--the hill
country around Wimberley.

We also know there's a wizarding academy around someplace because of the
oddities in the wildlife, clearly the result of magical foolery at some
level. Horned toads, who squirt blood from their eyes (they really do, I've
been squirted). Armadillos, who carry leprosy and always have four identical
quadruplets. And look at the zillion varieties of stinging insects, and the
noxious assortment of stinging and sticking plants--not to mention the
hill-country cedar which makes everyone sick for weeks at a time--obviously
all intentional creations designed to repel casual settlers and the randomly
curious.

To return to house names--the house system is a European import, and if the
academy has houses of this sort, they would probably not have been named for
indigenous wildlife, but after the founders, following the European example.
I would have to check rolls of old Texas families before I could postulate
the names.

The wizarding world not responding too quickly to change, it's probably
called the Academy of the Republic or San Jacinto School or something
similar hearkening back to the days of its founding. And I'm betting it's
even more into tradition that A&M (who are still trying to cope with the
unaccountable failure of their Bonfire Charm).

--Amanda




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Nov 26 16:57:56 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:57:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating/summoning
In-Reply-To: <8gn12t45m5bki0dkfnlqo9vnnrsqd00id3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEFJCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6095

I devoutly hope that you cannot summon a person without his or her
permission. Suppose the witch or wizard was in the middle of a shower, or
sitting on the toilet, or being intimate with their "significant other" at
the moment of summoning.  My mind is conjuring up all sorts of
awkward/embarrassing/humiliating moments.  Otherwise, I can see Fred &
George turning a Hogwarts toilet seat into a portkey -- YIKES!



-----Original Message-----
From: Monika Huebner [mailto:monika at darwin.inka.de]
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 3:00 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Apparating/summoning (was Re: Lizards &
Thanksgiving, Musings


On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 06:48:03 -0000, "Steve Vander Ark"
<vderark at bccs.org> wrote:

>Calling the person's name is how the connection is made to the
>correct fireplace. Anyone can do it, as long as they have the powder
>and a fireplace. When Lupin stepped through, he did so because he
>wanted to, undoubtedly using Floo Powder to do it.

Are you sure he did so because he wanted to? He heard Snape call his
name and then used Floo powder himself to get to Snape's office? I
admit that I haven't thought of this, I just thought it was a strange
incident.

>Kind of like a computer network, connected within an organization but
>blocked from the outside world by means of a firewall. Hey...! Well,
>that's cool. I hadn't thought of THAT before I typed it!

Hey, I like this idea a lot!

Monika





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 26 18:14:08 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:14:08 -0600
Subject: CHAT!
References: <25.deb89d4.27528cd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c057d4$b02b87e0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6096

~~~~~~~~~~CHAT~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today, at 3pm eastern, we will be descending on yahoo (the home of the
original Hp For Grownups club, see link on the egroup's homepage) to have a
multi-colored very hilarious chat.  For examples of previous chats, see
LINKS section, and visit the Chatscripts egroup--that's where we store them.

>From what I could see of last weeks  chat (LOL, thanks Simon!), Simon spent
much time creating Quidditch macros, and posting them.  Of course, if you
don't have CheetaChat (www.cheetachat.com) they didn't make sense!  They
appear as just strange lines in yahoo-chat!

The advantage of using plain yahoo-chat is that you get to here peeves
(Jeremy) playing which the chat is going on via voice chat, something we
cheeta users cannot do :c( .

(To use Cheetachat, see instructions at the bottom of this posting)

No clue as to the subject today, all I know is that my cheetascript will be
running (that's how we save the chats and why I can't use regular yahoo
chat!), while I am housecleaning....  so there will be alot of afks (unless
this child of mine sleeps, lol, at 3?).

Thanks for reading!

Dee

(gypsycaine over at yahoo)

(Does someone have that list I posted of everyone's handles as they
translate to chat?  We might want to plop those on the chatscripts main
page....)

INSTRUCTIONS TO USE CHEETACHAT (CC for short).

1.  Download it!  :)  www.cheetachat.com
2.  Avatars are available via the same url (which are stuck in front of your
name to be cute on cc .  You have to register first, though...
3.  Install it.  Please see the site for requirements--it ran well on my
233, 32 meg cable connection (never used it on dialup--hate dialup!)
4.  Run it.  Use the yahoo alias you created.  (You did create a yahoo clubs
alias, right?  You didn't?  Argh.  Use this Url
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/harrypotterforgrownups and sign up NOW!  LOL.
Seriously if you aren't already at yahoo and a member of yahoo clubs, you'll
need to create a alias to use over there (good luck!) to join with, then
click JOIN THIS CLUB in the upper right hand of your screen.  Since you
don't have a yahoo-account, it'll send you (after you answer a few
questions) an email to confirm.  This email address is whatever you used to
create the yahoo account with.  This is the only time yahoo will do this to
you--all the next clubs will be instant-join!  Go check your email, and
click where it says to--you're a member!  If you did all this, please
postpone running cheeta until you finish!)
5.  When you come to a screen, ignore everyone on it.  (Trust me, it's safer
that way)  Look on the bar above the window--there are a few options that
might interest you.
    a.  ROOMS.  This is where you'll find Clubs!  And hence, HP4Gu listed!
(Since you DID join the club, right?)
    b.  It appears to be an artist palette.  It's a neat feature that lets
you blend colors for your chat-color.  I use shades of various tones, but
all within the same color (like faint red to a crimson red, or a deep hunter
green to a mint-green)  All I can say is play with it, and don't forget to
SAVE the one you like.
6.  You have a few frames on the screen itself.  The list of chatters, the
main chat screen, the little screen you type in to talk, a list of emotions
(blinks, burps, chuckles), and a list of macros.  Those are the same macros
I am talking about above where Simon created his Quidditch players.  They
are very kewl!
7.  Click on the HP4GU Room, and you should be transported to the
club-chat-room!
8.  To save the chat, under settings, preferences (or is that backwards?)
there is a screen where you can save up to a # of lines.  Change that to
unlimited (Advisable with our bunch--we've gone to 8 or 9 before!).  There
is a little diskette on the screen which allows you to save.  Rich Text
format (Rtf) is with all the blends, etc intact.  DO NOT CLICK THE GREEN
icky looking thing if you are saving--it clears both the "buffer" and the
screen.  (The buffer is where the words are being stored, sorta like a
clipboard on windows).

To leave, click log-out and disconnect.  Exploration will reveal other
interesting features, like text-to-speech reading (very kewl, but not for
me!) of the lines of certain individuals (like it'll speak out loud Neil's
postings as the Flying Ford Anglia!  :)

If by some chance when you go to get to the club, it doesn't list the clubs
under the ROOMS option, log out and log in again.  It's glitchy sometimes.
Just ask Rita?

D


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 26 18:15:39 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:15:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating/summoning
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEFJCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c057d4$e1f6b920$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6097

What age do you have to be to learn how to do portkeys, or can only certain
individuals legally do them (like pharmacists here in the states can handle
drugs, but I can't)?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Apparating/summoning


> I devoutly hope that you cannot summon a person without his or her
> permission. Suppose the witch or wizard was in the middle of a shower, or
> sitting on the toilet, or being intimate with their "significant other" at
> the moment of summoning.  My mind is conjuring up all sorts of
> awkward/embarrassing/humiliating moments.  Otherwise, I can see Fred &
> George turning a Hogwarts toilet seat into a portkey -- YIKES!
>
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From eliasberg at ioc.net  Sun Nov 26 18:35:18 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:35:18 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <69.d74d0eb.27522af6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8vrl56+7g7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6098

The Lone Star Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry (the coat of 
arms a crossed wand and yellow rose), or The Sam Houston 
Academy of Magic.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 18:59:04 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:59:04 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <nam12tsalne86db74e2ssejfnprs6vc5at@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8vrmho+8liu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6099

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> wrote:

> I always wondered how Sirius managed to get his gold out of his 
vault
> to pay for the firebolt. [snip] I doubt that Sirius would still 
have the key to his vault after twelve
> years in Azkaban, and I find it highly unlikely that he gave it to 
the
> goblins before going after Pettigrew. His house might have been 
sealed
> by the ministry after he was arrested, at least I don't think that 
he
> would have been able to retrieve anything from it after twelve 
years.
> But we also know that there are vaults that cannot be opened with a
> key but only by a goblin. In his letter at the end of PoA Sirius 
tells
> Harry that he took the gold from his own vault number 711. This 
vault
> happens to be close to the one that contained the philosopher's 
stone
> which had the number 713 and is located in Gringotts' high security
> area. Maybe Sirius did not need a key to open his vault, but this 
led
> to the question what he needed a high security vault for. I doubt 
that
> it contains only gold. Any thoughts?
> 
I have always imagined that the note Sirius gave Crookshanks said 
something like:  Send a Firebolt to Harry Potter at Hogwarts, and 
take the gold from Gringotts vault number 711, password Abracadabra.  
It is very odd that the vault number was taken out of the American 
edition, though.  But the 700 series vaults may not be high security, 
just those that the goblins lock/unlock when given the correct 
password (or something comparable) rather than ones which the owners 
lock/unlock with a key.  Or, most likely, it is just something JKR 
wrote down without really thinking about.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 19:07:10 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:07:10 -0000
Subject: (long) Re: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <25.deb89d4.27528cd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8vrn0u+fghu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6100

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nodigio at a... wrote:

> Why, it would be called  Longhorn Academy, with House Rattler, 
House 
> Armadillo, House Grackle, and House Skeetshooter.
> 

And our old friend -- the Texas oil wizard, head of the Texas 
Slytherin Society, and George W. Bush supporter -- Jim-Bob Malfoy is 
on the Board of Governors.

--Joywitch




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Sun Nov 26 19:21:18 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:21:18 -0500
Subject: The Wild Swans - OT
Message-ID: <008801c057de$0e7552a0$46ac153f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6101

Last week a few of you mentioned the wonderful book by Peg "The Wild
wans"  - being the analytical type that I am, and the type to revel in
discussions of books that captivate me, I set up an egroup to facilitate
discussion of this book.  So far its just a few of us (including Peg) but if
anyone else is interested here is the link:

http://www.egroups.com/group/WildSwans

Some of our topics include how some of her characters seem to echo some HP
characters, are we obsessed or what!

Anyway, I'll put the link on this groups links page.

Go read the book and come join us.

carole






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Nov 26 20:20:52 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:20:52 -0500
Subject: Chap. 21 Summary
References: <8vrn0u+fghu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c057e6$601298e0$29c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6102

Chapter 21: The House-Elf Liberation Front

In contrast to the high tension of the immediately prior chapter, Chapter 21
maintains a more relaxed pace.  It opens with an exhilarated Harry, fresh
from his success in the first Triwizards task and his reconciliation with
Ron, speaking excitedly with Ron and Hermione on his way to the Owlery. .He
relates to them what Sirius told him of Karkaroff's  Death Eater background.
Harry prepares an energized Pigwidgeon to take a message to Sirius.Ron is
highly enthused  (perhaps in partial compensation for their finally-resolved
quarrel) -about Harry's chances to win the tournament outright, while
Hermione sounds a more cautionary tone. Harry sends Pigwidgeon off to Sirius
with a detailed description of his battle with the Horntail They then make
their way to Gryffindor's "Surprise Party," in his honor

Harry, now having proven that he is worthy of competing beside the other
three tournament champions, enters Gryffindor's common room in triumph, with
the acclaim of his comrades resounding in his ears. Mountains of
refreshments are on hand, the air is "thick with stars and sparks," and the
room is decorated with banners of Harry zooming around the dragon.  Harry's
happiness soars. The only discordant note to this otherwise joyous
celebration is that unsettling golden egg, his clue for the second task,
which does not promise to yield its secrets too easily. When it is pried
open, it proves to be empty, while emitting a most horrendous and
earsplitting noise.  But it's only - for now -  a momentary distraction. As
the celebration continues, Fred and George confess to Hermione that they're
able to access the house-elves kitchen (through a hidden entrance concealed
in a painting of a bowl of fruit). Hermione seems especially intrigued,
leading to some mild teasing from George, and a mild reprimand from Fred.
Poor Neville abruptly changes into a large canary, thanks to custard creams
hexed by the Weasley twins.  Harry, at nearly 1 a.m., finally makes his way
to bed, placing his animated model Hungarian Horntail on the table beside
his bed before retiring.  He muses as he closes his bedcurtains, "Hagrid had
a point..they were all right, really, dragons.."

As December commences, along with its icy wind and sleet, Harry is next seen
(whilst noting the continued presence of the Durmstrang ship and the
Beauxbatons caravan) on his way to the Care of Magical Creatures class.
Hagrid is not sure what to expect from his beloved (to him) Blast-Ended
Skrewts, which have grown to a length of six feet.  Most of them have killed
one another, and only ten are left.  It has become apparent that that
Skrewts do not hibernate, so the students - those who do not flee to Hagrid'
s cabin, at least -  must laboriously nail them shut .into pillow-lined
boxes, while suffering multiple burns and cuts.  As the last Skrewt is being
rounded up, none other than ace Daily Prophet reporter Rita Skeeter, who
apparently been observing all along, suddenly speaks up.  Rita expresses
ironic interest in the "Bang-Ended Scoots," and Harry quickly suspects that
Hagrid is being set up for a classic Fleet Street hatchet job.  Knowing of
Hagrid's predilection for "interesting creatures," (i.e., "terrifying
monsters"), Harry worries what might happen if Rita pries too deeply into
how Hagrid obtained the Skrewts.   Unable to communicate his fears to
Hagrid, the latter arranges to meet with Rita later in the week .

Harry and Ron banter in Prof. Trelawney's class, as she once again issues
dire predictions of imminent death. Looking for Hermione in the library,
they only find Victor Krum, with his usual entourage. They soon find her
flushed with excitement as they return to Gryffindor.  She takes them
through winding stairs to a long stone corridor and  finally to the painting
Fred and George described earlier.  Realizing where they heading, Ron makes
a sarcastic comment about SPEW being renamed the House-Elf Liberation Front.
Hermione brushes this comment aside, and leads them through the painting to
the House- Elves' kitchen.

Once inside, Harry is tackled by an old acquaintance - Dobby, the former
Malfoy house-elf who Harry helped set free at the end of Volume II.  Last
seen blasting Lucius Malfoy down a flight of stairs, Dobby joyously embraces
his liberator with almost as much force as he unleashed against his former
enslaver, hugging him so hard that Harry  fears he may suffer broken ribs.
Harry notes that Dobby is dressed in a most outlandish manner (including the
inadvertently discarded sock from Mr. Malfoy that set him free), although
scrupulously neat. The trio that both Winky and Dobby have been given jobs
in Hogwarts' kitchen by Dumbledore.  Harry notes the design of the kitchen,
which has four tables directly below the four House tables of the Great
Hall. Apparently, the prepared food is hoisted above to the students and
faculty. At least a hundred elves, all dressed in tea towels with the
Hogwarts crest,  scrape and bow to the trio as they walk past.

Also "liberated," but much less contented, is Winky, who is as ashamed of
her freedom as Dobby is proud of his.  Slovenly dressed (again in contrast
to Dobby's neatness), she bursts into tears as Harry approaches.  Dobby
offers tea to the trio, and instantly six house-elves set up a refreshment
table. Dobby acknowledges how difficult it was for a liberated house-elf to
find employment, "because Dobby wants paying now!"  Unable for find work for
two years, he finally hit upon the idea of applying at Hogwarts, and was
taken onto the payroll by Albus Dumbledore.  However, Dobby is still a
little unclear on this whole freedom concept: although proud of his freedom,
he is also proud that he was able to argue his new employer into paying him
a lower wage for longer hours than Dumbledore had first offered.

Throughout this conversation, Winky has been weeping harder than ever,
spurning Hermione's attempt to console her.  She is offended when Hermione
asks her about her salary: "Winky is not yet getting paid! Winky is not sunk
so low as that!"  She becomes angry when Hermione tries to blame Mr. Crouch
for her predicament: "You is not insulting my master, miss!" Though no
longer magically bound to him, she refuses to speak ill of her former
master.  Dobby notes somewhat nervously that Dumbledore told him it's OK for
him to call Dumbledore "a barmy old codger" if he likes, but he once again
lapses into self-punishment when he dares to speak ill of the Malfoys. Winky
is momentarily attentive when Hermione informs her that Crouch is at
Hogwarts, but she does not like that he is the company of Ludo Bagman, "a
very bad wizard" who her master does not like.  She refuses to divulge more,
and resumes her weeping. .

Dobby, seemingly oblivious (or perhaps accustomed) to Winky's behavior,
chats happily with the trio about his future plans, which include buying a
sweater.  Ron promises him to give him one that he knows he will shortly be
receiving from his mother for Christmas.  As they take their leave, the
other house elves, press extra food upon them.  Dobby asks if he can visit
Harry sometime, and  Harry of course agrees. Hermione is convinced that
Dobby's example will gradually encourage the elves to pursue their own
freedom.  Ron ironically hopes that they don't look too closely at Winky.
Hermione airily declares that her mood will soon improve when she realizes
how much better off she is.  They briefly muse over what Crouch might have
had against Bagman, speculating that he is probably a crummy department
head.  But at he at least has a sense of humor (which neither Crouch or his
worshipful assistant Percy Weasley possess)

1) This is one of the seemingly less eventful chapters in the book ,which
those into "page-turning" tend to dislike, - is JKR merely padding here, or
is she approximating the "heavenly lengths" of the great Victorian
novelists, providing a canvas for a greater latitude in character and
narrative development?

2) And of course this is a chapter in which quite a bit is actually
happening. Several narrative strands are introduced which will be bought to
full fruition later in the book.  I've noted at least four: they are..?

3) To what extent is JKR mocking Hermione's self-proclaimed liberation
movement?  Do the loftiness of Hermione's ideals blind her to the specifics
of Winky's misery?  Is freedom always an unalloyed good? What did Sartre
mean when he spoke of being "condemned to freedom?" What did Jean-Jacques
Rousseau mean when he declared that, under the General Will, we would  be
"forced to be free?"

4) One of our regular participants stated that the depiction of the
house-elves, here and elsewhere, made her uncomfortable, being reminiscent
to her of the stereotypic "happy darkies" on the antebellum plantation.  I'd
be interested to hear if our British readers react quite as strongly to
this.  Is this, from the British perspective, more an  instance of
Upstairs/Downstairs? Class rather than race?

5) Compare the Gryffindor celebration with their earlier celebration at the
end of Chapter 17. How do they differ?

6)  Do the Blast-Ended Screwts have anything to do with the Double-Ended
Newts seen in the Magical Menagerie?  (Chap 4 of PoA).  I'm aware that Rita
Skeeter later identifies them as a cross between manticores and fire-crabs,
but we all know how reliable she is.

    - CMC






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Nov 26 20:52:30 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:52:30 -0500
Subject: "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
References: <008801c057de$0e7552a0$46ac153f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <001a01c057ea$cb6f32c0$29c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6103

No character  in JKR's narrative has so far made a more dramatic entrance
than Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody.  I'm tempted to quote the entire passage, one
of JKR's finest set pieces: but I will instead urge the reader to take up
your wand, cry "Accio GoF" and open the volume to Chapter 12, when, with a
crash of thunder, the doors of the Great Hall fling open to admit this
magnificently mangled figure with the swiveling blue eye as clumps his way
to the Teacher's Table amidst the stunned silence of the students and
faculty alike.

Of course, any attempt to characterize Moody is severely compromised by the
fact that he is impersonated  by Barty Crouch Jr, throughout the bulk of
GoF.  Still, we can piece enough together both on the recollections of
others and the apparent skill of Crouch's impersonation to assemble a
reasonably accurate surmise of what the real "Mad-Eye" is like. Locked away
in his own trunk, and under the control of an Imperius Curse,  he is
continuously consulted by Crouch "to find out about his past, learn his
habits, so that I could fool even Dumbledore." We can assume that Barty
Crouch made few moves without making sure he was acting in accord with the
real Moody.

We initially learn of Moody at the beginning of Chap. 11: Arthur Weasley is
dispatched by Amos Diggory to assist Moody escape a charge of Improper Use
of Magic. Moody, whose paranoia has increased with age, seems to have
created an unfortunate situation involving some exploding dustbins in which
the Muggles police became involved. Arthur's intervention gets Moody out of
trouble, but leads to an embarrassing Daily Prophet article from Rita
Skeeter. . Moody seems to be something of a living legend. His many
eccentricities - his intense paranoia which leads him "hex first and ask
questions later", his only drinking from a hip flask, etc. - only serve to
augment his mythical aura. Charlie Weasley says that Moody, now retired,
once worked at the Ministry as an Auror: a Dark wizard catcher.  "He was one
of the best..half the cells in Azkaban are full because of him."  Although
he made a lot of enemies in the families of people he prosecuted (e.g. the
Malfoys), such trusted figures as Arthur Weasley and Sirius Black speak of
him in terms of the utmost regard. He has agreed to come out of retirement
for one year to teach the Defense Against the Dark Arts (the fourth teacher
in four books) as a special favor to Dumbledore.

We later get a glimpse of Moody in Chapter 30 (The Pensieve) during his
active Auror years. Moody - with two normal eyes  - is seated beside
Dumbledore during the post-Voldemort era "witch trials.".  As we sit through
the trial of Karkakoff, we learn through his sotto voce comments of his
merciless and militant  hostility against the Death Eaters, and his anger at
Crouch for plea-bargaining with Karkakoff. (we have earlier learned from
Sirius Black that Karkakoff was apprehended by Moody and served two years in
Azkaban). He brushes aside Dumbledore's expressed dislike of the Dementors,
implying that nothing could be bad enough for the likes of Karkakoff. We
learn that Moody lost a chunk of his nose when he attempted to bring in a
dark wizard named Rosier (the only time we learn the specifics of his
injuries.) When Dumbledore assures the jurors that Snape "is now no more a
Death Eater than I am," Moody looks deeply skeptical (and Snape still gives
him a wide berth ten years later). During the trial of superstar Ludo
Bagman, only Moody and Crouch seem impervious to the Quidditch star's charm.

When he enters the Great Hall, we see that Moody bears many scars from his
battles with Dark wizards.  He is horribly scarred, has a chunk of his nose
torn away, and clumps around on a carved wooden leg ending in a clawed foot.
Most intriguing is Moody's "mad-eye" which gives him extraordinary visual
powers: he can swivel it around 360 degrees to see in any direction, see
through solid objects, and even through Invisibility Cloaks.  His eye
"dances" in its socket when Moody is happy (as when Harry succeeds in the
first Triwizard task), or leaves only the white of his eye showing when he
looks off in another direction. When Moody later tells Harry that he has the
makings of a good Auror, Hary's immediate reaction is to first make sure
that not every Auror is as strikingly scarred.

 Moody's first appearance in the halls of Hogwarts is as memorable as his
initial entrance: When he sees Draco trying to fling a hex at Harry while
his back is turned, Moody transforms him into a ferret.  When the
ferret/Draco tries to flee, Moody sends it bouncing ever-higher in the air
("the best moment of my life," Ron calls it)  and fails to seem particularly
interested by Prof. McGonagall's  chastising reminder of the proper Hogwarts
disciplinary procedures. (Again, this action can be interpreted in terms of
the real Moody's dislike of foul play, as well as both Moody and Crouch's
dislike of the Malfoy family, albeit for different reasons).

As a teacher, Moody holds his classes riveted. Fred and George, who we may
assume have never been easily impressed by members of the Hogwarts faculty,
become instant fans:  "He knows, man.[he] knows what its like to be out
there doing it..Fighting the Dark Arts".   Moody combines the most salient
qualities of previous DADA professors Lockhart and Lupin.  He has Lockhart's
charisma and flamboyance (but none of his hotdogging), combined with Lupin's
skills, range of knowledge and even (seemingly) a touch of his sensitivity.
Whose heart is so hard that it failed to be touched by his mentoring of
Neville Longbottom? "It was the sort of thing Professor Lupin would have
done" thought Harry, and what higher praise can one bestow? (although we
later learn of Crouch's ulterior motives for doing so, we may also assume
that he first approached Neville acted this way  - and in front of witnesses
who would spread the news - to more closely approximate the real Moody).

Moody later says, "It's my job to think as Dark Wizards do." In Harry's
first class with him, Moody tells his class that while Lupin gave them all
an excellent training against various supernatural creatures last year,  he
is going to show them what wizards do to one another.  He warns his students
that fourth-years are usually not permitted to study material as difficult
as he is about to present (a great hook!) - and then, in an unforgettable
lecture demonstrates to them the three unforgivable curses: The Imperius,
the Cruciatus, ,and the Avada Kedrava.  He reminds his students that only
"constant never-ceasing vigilance" can protect them against the curses. His
classes are often "difficult and demanding," and remind us of Iris Murdoch's
observation that all good teachers have a bit of a sadistic streak.
(Perhaps it's more than  just a bit with Moody). He subjects each of his
students to the Imperius Curse, forcing them to do humiliating things. Only
Harry is able to fight it off. . A lesson in Chap. 28) of hex-deflection is
so rigorous that many students left the class nursing small injuries. Harry
leaves with a bad case of twitchy ears.

Harry seems to have found another ally among the faculty, and Moody soon
wins his complete trust. Harry expects to be lectured by Moody when he
overhears him informing Cedric of the nature of first task .  He is
surprised when Moody tells him that it was "the decent thing to do." He
offers Harry aid in the first task, but in a positive supportive way,  not
the sort of sleazy underhanded assistance that Ludo Bagman seemed to offer.
Moody always seems to be looking out for Harry. He is the first to offer the
idea that Harry's name was slipped into theGoblet by some one trying to kill
him. In Chap. 25, he shields the invisible  Harry from Filch and Snape when
he is trapped in the stairway.  Harry trusts him so much that he entrusts
the Marauder's Map to his care.

After Harry, exhausted and disoriented, returns from his battle with
Voldemort, he is, before he knows it, carried off by Moody, who interrogates
him insistently about Voldy's return.  It is then that Moody reveals that he
is a servant of "the Dark Lord" who set up Harry as a means of restoring
Voldy to corporeal form. At first, of course we think it is the real Moody
who is insanely exulting - Only after Dumbledore, terrible as an army with
banners, bursts into the room to stop Mad-Eye, do we learn the truth: that
Moody has been impersonated since the beginning of the year by Barty Crouch
Jr.  Dumbledore shows Harry the real Moody, gaunt and starved, without his
wooden leg or magic eye, locked away as a prisoner inside his own trunk,
controlled by the Imperius curse.  When Harry finally rests in Madame
Pomfrey's infirmary after his ordeal, he catches sight of the real Moody
lying in a bed across the room. The last we see of Mad-Eye is in the final
chapter, sitting at the staff table, in an extremely nervous condition,
jumping whenever he is spoken to.  Ironically, Harry never exchanges words
with the real Moody.

(1) Did you suspect that Moody was the true culprit? I sure didn't. What
clues does JKR provide that reveal Moody's true identity and purpose?

(2) When Moody tells his class that he is going to subject them to the
Imperius Curse, Hermione objects that it is illegal.  Moody responds that
Dumbledore wants them to learn it.  Would Dumbledore have actually
authorized this, or this is simply Crouch's sadism at work?

(3) Crouch may have impersonated Moody skillfully, but perhaps all he had to
do was lean a little. Does the impersonation of Moody by Crouch imply some
sort of "moral equivalency" argument: that both the pro- and anti-Voldemort
forces were operating on the same moral level?  - This was an argument often
advanced during the Cold War  (only on our Western side of the Cold War, of
course), that there was no fundamental difference between American and
Soviets. Would this moral equivalency argument also work in the case of
Fascism and anti-Fascism?

(4) Will Moody be back next year?  It seems that JKR's strategy to date is
to give us a new Dark Arts prof each year. But technically the real Mad-Eye
could return in Book Five as a new DADA professor, since he didn't really
teach last year.

(5) How did Moody acquire his magic eye?

(6) Dumbledore says that Barty gave himself away when he took Harry away
from his presence.  Why was this the give-away?

    - CMC

I AM MOODY

(to the tune of I Am Woman)


I am Moody, hear an Auror
Declare total all-out war
Against each Dark Art practitioner devout
I will transport Voldemort
O'er the brink of Thermidor
And those Death-Eating scum I'll ferret out!

Oh yes I am mad
I suspect every ashcan
But I'll not be had
By any evil wizard's plan
Gonna send that trash straight back to Azkaban!
I am mad!
I am intransigent!
I am Moody!

I use Constant Vigilance when I teach Dark Arts Defense
Nothing out there can escape my view
My eye swivels three-six-oh
Catching sight of every foe
I see straight through you as I look askew

Oh I'm insane
I get quite delirious
When I sustain
Another Curse Imperius
And hexes even more deleterious!
I am mad!
I am intransigent!
I am..

(he reaches for his hip flask, but finds it is empty. He abruptly changes
back to Barty Crouch Jr.)

 ...leaving!

(Exit, pursued by Dementors)







From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 21:05:34 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:05:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schools (Texas Wizard Academy)
Message-ID: <f.c564704.2752d51e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6104

In a message dated 11/26/2000 1:44:11 PM EST, eliasberg at ioc.net writes:

Amanda,
Wimberly!  Yes!  A perfect Hogsmeade-equivalent for Texas! 

and eliasberg,

<< The Lone Star Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry (the coat of 
 arms a crossed wand and yellow rose), or The Sam Houston 
 Academy of Magic.  >>

The former sounds more likely to me (and I *love* the coat of arms), but the 
latter puts an entirely new spin on the 77-foot statue of Sam Houston that 
looms over I-45 at Huntsville.  Perhaps it's not really a statue, but is SH 
himself, protecting Texans, wizard and muggle alike, from Voldemort!

*E*



From editor at texas.net  Sun Nov 26 21:58:12 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:58:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schools (Texas Wizard Academy)
References: <f.c564704.2752d51e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A218774.ACC525F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6105

mlleelizabeth at aol.com wrote:

> << The Lone Star Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry (the coat of
>  arms a crossed wand and yellow rose), or The Sam Houston
>  Academy of Magic.  >>
>
> The former sounds more likely to me (and I *love* the coat of arms), but the
> latter puts an entirely new spin on the 77-foot statue of Sam Houston that
> looms over I-45 at Huntsville.  Perhaps it's not really a statue, but is SH
> himself, protecting Texans, wizard and muggle alike, from Voldemort!

No dice--my dad knew the sculptor, so it's definitely a statue. Might be
enchanted, though.

I'm not sure I want the yellow rose on the school arms. You know the reference,
right? Emily Morgan? Surely there's more, um, dignified things to represent the
school?

--Amanda




From drmm at fuuko.com  Sun Nov 26 22:13:18 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (DrMM)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:13:18 -0600
Subject: Crouch Summary
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001126160911.00a9ebc0@mail.fuuko.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6106


<<There arent really any other characters in
the HP books who lead such unhappy, tragic lives, although plenty of
characters manage to overcome tragedy (Harry, Neville, Sirius).>>

Ah yes, well I may have to slightly disagree with you.  I happen to think 
Snape has just as unhappy life as Couch did . . . Of course, at the moment 
there isn't any confirmation of this in the books although I'm sure there 
will be in the future.  I just don't think it's plausible for someone to be 
as bitter as he is without having some tragedy in his life . . . And I'm 
suspecting his background is just as bad, if not worse, than Riddle's and 
Harry's . . . .

I'm sure other Snape fans would agree :)

DrMM
*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM is found at drmm at fuuko.com
http://www.fuuko.com
ICQ: #9689360
Most recent anime: Magic Knights Rayearth




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 26 22:23:06 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:23:06 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <nam12tsalne86db74e2ssejfnprs6vc5at@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8vs2ga+soj9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6107

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> wrote:

> I always wondered how Sirius managed to get his gold out of his
> vault to pay for the firebolt. Until now we have only seen people 
> coming directly to Gringotts to take money from their vaults and 
> they have to bring the key to open them. 

And in GoF, Molly did the shopping for everyone while they were at 
the Quidditch Match, and JKR didn't show us Harry giving Molly his 
key.

I think Gringotts goblins can open any vault without a key and just 
use the key as identification for the vault owner. I think people can 
write a note to Gringotts saying take this much money out of my 
vault number so-and-so and give it to this person (Quality Quidditch 
Supplies, in the Firebolt example) and there is an authenticatable 
signature on the note, as a form of identification other than the 
physical key.

> In his letter at the end of PoA Sirius tells Harry that he took the
> gold from his own vault number 711. This vault happens to be close
> to the one that contained the philosopher's stone which had the
> number 713 and is located in Gringotts' high security area. Maybe
> Sirius did not need a key to open his vault, but this led to the
> question what he needed a high security vault for. 

We don't KNOW that Gringotts vault are numbered in any logical way. 
Vault 711 might be nowhwere vault 713, and not a high security vault.





From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Sun Nov 26 22:25:41 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:25:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED80@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6108


> From:	Caius Marcius [SMTP:coriolan at worldnet.att.net]
> Sent:	Sunday, November 26, 2000 4:53 PM
> To:	HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject:	[HPforGrownups] "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1) Did you suspect that Moody was the true culprit? I sure didn't. What
> clues does JKR provide that reveal Moody's true identity and purpose?
> 
	I didn't! I know from the previous books that JKR always has a
surprise as who the villain is, but I was still thrown for a major loop. I
love how she does that!


> (2) When Moody tells his class that he is going to subject them to the
> Imperius Curse, Hermione objects that it is illegal.  Moody responds that
> Dumbledore wants them to learn it.  Would Dumbledore have actually
> authorized this, or this is simply Crouch's sadism at work?
> 
	I'm not sure. I was thinking that Moody was doing it because he was
doing what the real Moody would have done - but I think that perhaps
Moody/Junior was "testing" Harry to gain insight as to how he defeated Voldy
when he was a babe.  How did he avoid being killed by the Avada
Whatchamacallit curse? (I'm at work, don't have the book with me).

	I could see Dumbledore wanting the students to learn it - he does
like to go outside of the rules. He banned the Demontors from entering the
castle in PoA, and he takes initiative in telling his students that Voldy
killed Cedric. By understanding how it feels to have the curse cast on you,
wouldn't you learn how to defend yourself better against it?

> (6) Dumbledore says that Barty gave himself away when he took Harry away
> from his presence.  Why was this the give-away?
> 
	From what little we know of the real Moody, I can't think of a
reason of why the real Moody would have taken Harry away. He is deeply
paranoid (with reason).  As has been stated over and over, Voldy can not
harm Harry when he is under Dumbledore's protection.  I think the real Moody
would have kept Harry where Dumbledore could see him at all times.

	Angela



From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 23:09:35 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:09:35 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001126160911.00a9ebc0@mail.fuuko.com>
Message-ID: <8vs57f+o33v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6109

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, DrMM <drmm at f...> wrote:
> 
> <<There arent really any other characters in
> the HP books who lead such unhappy, tragic lives, although plenty of
> characters manage to overcome tragedy (Harry, Neville, Sirius).>>
> 
> Ah yes, well I may have to slightly disagree with you.  I happen to 
think 
> Snape has just as unhappy life as Couch did . . . 

Good point.  I guess I dont think of Snape as a tragic character 
because he is so easy to hate.  To me, a classic tragic character is 
the one who is beaten down by the tragedies of his life, is 
overwhelmed by life and by his own fears, and usually reacts in a way 
which is cowardly.  That is probably all just my own perception, 
though.

Based on your definition of the tragic character, we could probably 
include the Dursleys, especially Dudley who never really had a chance.

--Joywitch




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Nov 26 23:10:29 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:10:29 -0000
Subject: Curses lesson
In-Reply-To: <8vr9bm+li24@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vs595+85e3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6110

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, amaryllis05 at w... wrote:

> I asked myself why Moody aka Barty Crouch would teach 
> Harry how to fight the Imperius curse. Is he just malicious and 
> anticipatimg the moment Harry has to confront it ? 

These are two questions that people on the list have tried to find 
answers to, but not with great success. I thought maybe Moody wanted 
to check how Harry resisted the Imperius Curse in order to report 
back to Voldemort, but that wouldn't explain why he continued until 
Harry was able to throw it off. And why was Voldemort stupid enough 
to use it if he knew that Harry was able to throw it off?

> And second I like to know if Wormtail used Voldmort`s wand when he
> cursed Cedric, since he came out of his wand.

That wand, V's wand, MUST have been used to kill Cedric, because he 
came out of it. But where has V's wand been for 13 years since V was 
destroyed? Why wasn't it destroyed with him?




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Nov 26 23:39:19 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:39:19 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schools (Texas Wizard Academy)
Message-ID: <9.d6cacea.2752f927@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6111

In a message dated 11/26/2000 5:11:07 PM EST, editor at texas.net writes:

<< No dice--my dad knew the sculptor, so it's definitely a statue. Might be
 enchanted, though.>

<g>  Ok, but it's still a pretty scary sight when you're driving down I-45!  
 
 I'm not sure I want the yellow rose on the school arms. You know the 
reference,
 right? Emily Morgan? Surely there's more, um, dignified things to represent 
the
 school? >>

Personally, I don't consider Emily, or her actions, undignified.  But that is 
of course a matter of opinion.  Perhaps a bluebonnet would be a better choice 
anyway, as it is our state flower, after all.

*E*



From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Sun Nov 26 23:46:22 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 26 Nov 2000 23:46:22 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <975282382.99107@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6112


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Who old are you?
In the chat tonight the age of memebers 
of the group was mentioned and so we 
decided to do a poll of peoples ages. 

  o 14 and down 
  o 15 to 17 
  o 18 to 21 
  o 22 to 25 
  o 26 to 29 
  o 30 to 34 
  o 35 to 39 
  o 40 to 44 
  o 45 to 49 
  o 50 and up 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 00:10:52 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:10:52 -0000
Subject: Schools (Texas Wizard Academy)
In-Reply-To: <9.d6cacea.2752f927@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8vs8qc+niu0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6113

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/26/2000 5:11:07 PM EST, editor at t... writes:
>  I'm not sure I want the yellow rose on the school arms. You know 
the 
> reference,
>  right? Emily Morgan? Surely there's more, um, dignified things to 
represent 
> the
>  school? >>
> 
> Personally, I don't consider Emily, or her actions, undignified.  
But that is 
> of course a matter of opinion

OK, this Yankee will bite.  Please tell us, oh wonderful people of 
Texas: What is the significance of the yellow rose and who is Emily 
Morgan?

--Joy, the cranky witch of the North




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Nov 27 00:24:52 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:24:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Texas wizarding academy
References: <25.deb89d4.27528cd8@aol.com> <3A213D37.E53B5DE7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3A21A9D4.D8F4683D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6114

Hi --

I like this idea of a Texas wizarding academy!  And, Wimberley is just a
lovely location, although the Lost Pines area near Bastrop has some
appeal as well.

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Nobody who has been in Texas for more than two days would name
> anything but a pesticide, a strain of virulent bacteria, or some form
> of explosive after grackles. Skeet shooting is also too recent.

I can't agree more re: the grackles.  Foul creatures!!

> We also know there's a wizarding academy around someplace because of
> the
> oddities in the wildlife, clearly the result of magical foolery at
> some
> level. Horned toads, who squirt blood from their eyes (they really do,
> I've been squirted).

Me too.  My favorite pasttime as a young child was chasing after those
elusive creatures.

> The wizarding world not responding too quickly to change, it's
> probably
> called the Academy of the Republic or San Jacinto School or something
> similar hearkening back to the days of its founding. And I'm betting
> it's
> even more into tradition that A&M (who are still trying to cope with
> the
> unaccountable failure of their Bonfire Charm).

Yes! (she says gleefully -- "hook em' horns!").

> OK, this Yankee will bite.  Please tell us, oh wonderful people of
> Texas: What is the significance of the yellow rose and who is Emily
> Morgan?
>
> --Joy, the cranky witch of the North
>
Well, this native Texan is a bit ashamed to admit she didn't know the
answer really either.  A google search came up with the appropriate info
though.  You can read all about it (and read the lyrics to one of the
quintessentially Texas songs, "The Yellow Rose of Texas") at:

http://garywolff.com/yellowrose/

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 27 01:37:44 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:37:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch Summary
References: <8vs57f+o33v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003201c05812$a7e481c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6115

In the below scenario, Joywitch, would you also then classify our favorite
ham as a classic tragic character?  Stealing people's memories and writing
books with them as if they were your own is a very strong indication of a
lack of esteem.  Wonder what Mr. Lockhart's childhood was like?
--------------------------------

:)

"Take this hand and touch it. Breath into it the life you know so well. Take
with you the precision of an early morning rain: say to me "Leaving is
sorrow, may you ever return"

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374

--------------------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 5:09 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch Summary


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, DrMM <drmm at f...> wrote:
> >
> > <<There arent really any other characters in
> > the HP books who lead such unhappy, tragic lives, although plenty of
> > characters manage to overcome tragedy (Harry, Neville, Sirius).>>
> >
> > Ah yes, well I may have to slightly disagree with you.  I happen to
> think
> > Snape has just as unhappy life as Couch did . . .
>
> Good point.  I guess I dont think of Snape as a tragic character
> because he is so easy to hate.  To me, a classic tragic character is
> the one who is beaten down by the tragedies of his life, is
> overwhelmed by life and by his own fears, and usually reacts in a way
> which is cowardly.  That is probably all just my own perception,
> though.
>
> Based on your definition of the tragic character, we could probably
> include the Dursleys, especially Dudley who never really had a chance.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From drecla at msn.com  Mon Nov 27 01:04:45 2000
From: drecla at msn.com (drecla at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 01:04:45 -0000
Subject: Texas Wizard Schools
Message-ID: <8vsbvd+seuj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6116

mlleelizabeth wrote

>>Though I agree with you on your location of North American wizard 
schools for 
the most part, I'm certain that Texan wizard children do not leave 
the state 
for their education.  I believe the Texas wizarding academy is likely 
located 
in the middle of the Austin-Kerrville-San Antonio triangle, well 
concealed by 
both charms and the beautiful Texas hills and situated on the 
Guadalupe 
River.  Not sure what it's called.  Fellow Texans - any ideas?

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*>>

Although I think that the hill country is a good place for a wizard 
school, I think an even better place would be the Big Thicket of East 
Texas.  Just think, you have all those water moccasins, coral snakes, 
copperheads, and rattlesnakes to keep people out.  It could be near 
the old Bragg station (you can see strange lights there at times).

As far as the houses, The House of (Tom) Landry, The House of (Bum) 
Phillips, The House of (Bear) Bryant (Gig'm), The House of (Darryl) 
Royal.  Now those are real Texas houses. 

Diann





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 02:41:25 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 02:41:25 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <8vs2ga+soj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vshkl+j1lt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6117

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> 
wrote:
> 
> > I always wondered how Sirius managed to get his gold out of his
> > vault to pay for the firebolt. Until now we have only seen people 
> > coming directly to Gringotts to take money from their vaults and 
> > they have to bring the key to open them. 
> 
> And in GoF, Molly did the shopping for everyone while they were at 
> the Quidditch Match, and JKR didn't show us Harry giving Molly his 
> key.
> 
> I think Gringotts goblins can open any vault without a key and just 
> use the key as identification for the vault owner. I think people 
can 
> write a note to Gringotts saying take this much money out of my 
> vault number so-and-so and give it to this person (Quality 
Quidditch 
> Supplies, in the Firebolt example) and there is an authenticatable 
> signature on the note, as a form of identification other than the 
> physical key.
> 
> > In his letter at the end of PoA Sirius tells Harry that he took 
the
> > gold from his own vault number 711. This vault happens to be close
> > to the one that contained the philosopher's stone which had the
> > number 713 and is located in Gringotts' high security area. Maybe
> > Sirius did not need a key to open his vault, but this led to the
> > question what he needed a high security vault for. 
> 
> We don't KNOW that Gringotts vault are numbered in any logical way. 
> Vault 711 might be nowhwere vault 713, and not a high security 
vault.


Just as house elves have their own powerful magic, my guess is that 
Goblins have their own magic as well. Gringotts is like a Swedish 
bank...no one can confiscate the money, and the Goblins protect
all their deposits with ferocity. Therefore, few thefts. Another 
guess is that Sirius was able to instruct Gringotts to take the money 
out of his store of funds to pay for Harry's Firebolt. Too bad he 
can't instruct them to send him food.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 02:57:36 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 02:57:36 -0000
Subject: "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
In-Reply-To: <001a01c057ea$cb6f32c0$29c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8vsij0+gsd1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6118

Several posts have asked why Barty Crouch Jr. while impersonating
Mad Eye Moody would have helped the fourth years, or done several
things that were supportive of Neville or Harry or whomever.

Evil is terribly single-minded. Crouch, Jr.'s sole goal was to 
get Harry to the port key so that he could be transported to 
Voldemort for execution. Everything else Crouch did was subordinate 
to this goal. He had to pass convincingly as Mad Eye Moody. Remember, 
evil has no conscience. He didn't care if he was doing good or evil,
just so long as it met his goal. 

Dumbledore would be hard to fool, so Crouch tried in every way to act 
as if he were Mad Eye. It was fortuitous for him that his first
move could be against Draco Malfoy. Both Crouch and Moody hated 
Lucius Malfoy for different reasons.

The real Mad Eye was in no way the equivalent of Voldemort or Barty 
Crouch, Junior. He never killed unless forced to (according to 
Sirius), and always brought the DEs in for trial.

It is Bartemius Crouch, SENIOR (not Mad Eye) who is the moral 
equivalent of his son. They BOTH use evil methods; they are just on 
different sides.

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 03:02:43 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 03:02:43 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001126160911.00a9ebc0@mail.fuuko.com>
Message-ID: <8vsisj+6naa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6119

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, DrMM <drmm at f...> wrote:
> 
> <<There arent really any other characters in
> the HP books who lead such unhappy, tragic lives, although plenty of
> characters manage to overcome tragedy (Harry, Neville, Sirius).>>
> 
> Ah yes, well I may have to slightly disagree with you.  I happen to 
think 
> Snape has just as unhappy life as Couch did . . . Of course, at the 
moment 
> there isn't any confirmation of this in the books although I'm sure 
there 
> will be in the future.  I just don't think it's plausible for 
someone to be 
> as bitter as he is without having some tragedy in his life . . . 
And I'm 
> suspecting his background is just as bad, if not worse, than 
Riddle's and 
> Harry's . . . .

of course, this IS pure speculation, because we know nothing of 
Snape's life before Hogwarts.

Ah, yes, poor Tom Riddle, fatherless, rejected, of course he turned 
out badly, as did Snape, sniff, sniff.

Yeah, most of the bad guys had terrible childhoods, but many of the 
heroes did, too. The difference is the choices they make.

Harry could easily have been malicious, angry, nasty, just like 
Tom Riddle. He was treated abominably by the Dursleys.

Yet he consistently made choices on behalf of right and justice.
That's the difference.

Susan



> 
> I'm sure other Snape fans would agree :)
> 
> DrMM
> *~*~*~*~*~*
> DrMM is found at drmm at f...
> http://www.fuuko.com
> ICQ: #9689360
> Most recent anime: Magic Knights Rayearth




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Nov 27 03:26:45 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:26:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch Summary
References: <8vs57f+o33v@eGroups.com> <003201c05812$a7e481c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002901c05821$df6558e0$59d0320c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6120


----- Original Message -----
From: "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch Summary


> >
> > Good point.  I guess I dont think of Snape as a tragic character
> > because he is so easy to hate.  To me, a classic tragic character is
> > the one who is beaten down by the tragedies of his life, is
> > overwhelmed by life and by his own fears, and usually reacts in a way
> > which is cowardly.  That is probably all just my own perception,
> > though.

That sounds merely pathetic.  The classic tragic hero - the hero who
bestrides the Greek and the Elizabethan stage like a Colussus - is never
merely pathetic. And certainly is not cowardly. Rather, he (or she) is  a
person of exceptional abilities who Fate or Destiny decrees must undergo
some excruciating test of character.  A tragedy (in the literary sense) does
not necessarily end unhappily (e.g., Aeschylus' Eumenides, Euripedes'
Alcestis), but more often than not end with the destruction of the hero.  In
many cases, the hero's death purges the social environment of its
accumulated evil (eg, Lear, Hamlet); but in others, the tragic hero is
himself the one who introduces the evil and chaotic elements into the system
(eg, Macbeth, Richard III), and must be destroyed to restore the moral
order.

Snape is easy to hate, but so is Richard III - at least, at first blush.
Laurence Olivier once noted that Shakespeare loved R-3, and an actor can
only succeed in the role by recapturing that love.  Same thing with Snape
and JKR  - she is pouring 100% of her literary ability into Severus to
create a complex and imperishable character. ( not to be confused with
creating a perfect character who always does the right thing).

    - CMC




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 27 03:22:30 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 03:22:30 -0000
Subject: Thanksgiving and "102 Dalmations"
Message-ID: <8vsk1m+3aop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6121

Hi Everybody,
Hope you guys had a nice Thanksgiving (for those who celebrate it) 
and a nice start to the holiday season.  I was away without access to 
a computer (didn't know what to do)...anyhow I certainly have plenty 
of messages to catch up on!

Now maybe you were shopping but on the day after Thanksgiving I was 
at the Cinema watching this Disney movie.  It  was rather cute, and I 
got some casting ideas.  Firstly how about Glenn Close as Rita 
Skeeter, she's not British though (is she?). Secondly how about the 
dog guy (what's his name!!) for Sirius (On second thought he's 
probably not handsome enough as no one in the theatre swooned...)

Scott

"I'm Back"






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Nov 27 03:38:28 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:38:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanksgiving and "102 Dalmations"
References: <8vsk1m+3aop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c05823$821e5720$59d0320c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 6122


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott " <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 10:22 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanksgiving and "102 Dalmations"


 
> Now maybe you were shopping but on the day after Thanksgiving I was 
> at the Cinema watching this Disney movie.  It  was rather cute, and I 
> got some casting ideas.  Firstly how about Glenn Close as Rita 
> Skeeter

How about having Hollywood abandon Harry Potter after the first book?

    - CMC




From ak928 at barnard.edu  Mon Nov 27 03:50:57 2000
From: ak928 at barnard.edu (Ashley Kelly)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:50:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
In-Reply-To: <001a01c057ea$cb6f32c0$29c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10011262248250.6520-100000@eclipse>

No: HPFGUIDX 6123

Just a quick note... i got to ask a question of JKR in one of her online
chats last month and I asked whether we would see the real moody in a
following book and whether or not he would be as cool as the fake moody.

Yes, the real Moody will be in following books and he "is even cooler"





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 04:18:28 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 04:18:28 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <003201c05812$a7e481c0$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8vsnak+d3hk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6124

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> In the below scenario, Joywitch, would you also then classify our 
favorite
> ham as a classic tragic character?  Stealing people's memories and 
writing
> books with them as if they were your own is a very strong 
indication of a
> lack of esteem.  Wonder what Mr. Lockhart's childhood was like?

Hmmm.  I am probably the wrong person to ask; I have a pretty narrow 
vision of what makes a tragic character.  Dr. MM might see Lockhart 
as tragic, I have to say that I really dont.  A tragic character is 
generally one whose tragedy stems from circumstances beyond his/her 
control, compounded by his/her cowardly response

Lockhart makes a conscious decision to do what he did.  While you 
could psychoanalize just about anyone to try and show how nothing 
they did was their own fault, at some point IMHO people simply have 
to take responsibility for their own actions no matter how bad their 
childhoods were.  Therefore to me Lockhart is an instigator rather 
than a victim, although I certainly admit that the dividing line can 
be pretty thin and vague.

But Dr. MM and others might feel differently, and of course this all 
depends on your perspective.  For example, if you watch Oliver Stones 
movie *Nixon*, Stone portrays Nixon as a tragic character, and does a 
pretty convincing job of it.  Interesting, considering that I 
believe, and I think Stone pretty much believes too, that Nixon was a 
very evil and crazy man, not to mention a criminal.

Guilt/innocence/tragedy/evil are tough things to grapple with, so I 
will leave any further analysis to the heavy philosophical hitters 
like Peg.

--Joywitch





From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 27 05:11:11 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 05:11:11 -0000
Subject: Wizarding schools-an idea
Message-ID: <8vsqdf+f60l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6125

This is from an as-yet-unpublished fanfic (okay, I'm still working on 
it!)
 Area 51 in Nevada contains the world's largest all-wizard community, 
a city of about 20,000 people (it also contains the Nimbus factory!)
 It's wizard school is a day school only, and is divided into an 
elementary school (kindergarten-5th grade, ages 5-11) a middle school 
(6th-8th grade, ages 11-14) and a high school (9th-12th grade, ages 
14-18). No houses, no boarders.
 It also (until JKR said otherwise) had the world's only wizarding 
university- maybe I'll keep this anyway, after all, that's what 
fanfic's for!

 Architecturally, the school looks as though someone had heard of 
Hogwarts, but was consulted too late in the design process to do 
anything meaningful about it- it's a long, low, flat-roofed early 
postwar building with a few token gargoyles and such scattered over 
the outside as an afterthought. I still don't have a name for it yet, 
or for the surrounding city. 





From atelecky at mit.edu  Mon Nov 27 06:00:19 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:00:19 -0000
Subject: "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch (long)
In-Reply-To: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED80@lincoln.starchoice.com>
Message-ID: <8vst9j+6bvk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6126


> > (6) Dumbledore says that Barty gave himself away when he took 
Harry away
> > from his presence.  Why was this the give-away?
> > 
> 	From what little we know of the real Moody, I can't think of a
> reason of why the real Moody would have taken Harry away. He is 
deeply
> paranoid (with reason).  As has been stated over and over, Voldy can 
not
> harm Harry when he is under Dumbledore's protection.  I think the 
real Moody
> would have kept Harry where Dumbledore could see him at all times.
> 
> 	Angela

Perhaps Moody was involved in some of the charms, etc. performed early 
in Harry's life to protect him, and would have known that some one of 
them would fail to protect Harry should he removed from Dumbledore's 
presence. Crouch would have had no reason to ask the real Moody 
questions about Harry's past; Crouch's main interest in keeping Moody 
alive was only to allow him, Crouch, to mimic Moody's everyday habits 
and manner. 
But whether or not there is some deep magic in Dumbledore's presence 
that protects Harry, I can imagine how Moody's sudden flight from the 
scene would seem very, in fact, unquestionably, suspicious. Harry was 
just in serious danger, and it hardly seems that there is any reason 
for anyone to believe that Harry is no longer in danger. After all, he 
has just been abducted from Hogwarts itself by some means as yet 
undetermined. Hogwarts was supposed to be "the best place for 
anything you want to keep safe", one of the few places that was 
safe even at the height of Voldemort's power. And suddenly, in the 
middle of the confusion, Moody runs off back to the probably 
effectively deserted castle (everyone is out watching the tournament, 
after all) with Harry, with scarcely a by-your-leave or a good 
reason to anyone. Madam Pomfrey herself was probably out on the 
Quidditch field; she certainly was for the incident with the Hungarian 
Horntail, in a hospital tent on the field. It makes no sense that with 
people running around inside this maze though crowds of Blast Ended 
Skrewts and Sphinxes and who knows what else, not to have the school 
nurse on hand in case of injuries. So why should Moody need to bring 
Harry back to the hospital wing? The real Moody, with his Auror's 
instincts in addition to his ordinary common sense-- his Auror's 
instincts which as we know, always lead him to err definitely and even 
excessively on the side of caution, would hardly have suddenly decided 
that Harry was now out of danger--not when the means by which he had 
been abducted from Hogwarts itself were still unclear; when the 
safety of Hogwarts itself had just been so clearly put into question. 
And the real Moody, if he HAD believed that Harry was in danger, would 
never have taken him off to the deserted Hogwarts castle with only 
himself, much past his prime and possibly facing any number of Death 
Eaters or even Voldemort himself, to defend the boy. How foolish could 
he be, to remove Harry from the presence of the strongest wizard 
present, the wizard who could defend him best against any Death Eaters 
or even Voldemort himself? None of Harry's wounds are so serious that 
they justify putting him in such danger once again, even if Madam 
Pomfrey were not probably out on the Quidditch pitch herself. Crouch 
clearly was shaken out of caution by Harry's escape and the sudden 
evidence of the complete failure of Voldemort's careful plan, that he 
had been entrusted to put into action. Voldemort would likely never 
have exalted Crouch as Crouch so hoped he would, over all other Death 
Eaters, if Crouch's assignment had led to failure. Even if if was 
hardly Crouch's own fault! Evil overlords are scarcely known for their 
ability to forgive their minions' mistakes or to take blame upon 
themselves. So Crouch had reason to be distressed into 
carelessness when Harry, not unscathed but still very much alive, 
reappeared at the center of the maze.
Incidentally, Moody's character put me very much in mind of my tenth 
grade history teacher. He was similarly unconventional in his approach 
to teaching, didn't care for the rules and regulations and 
paperwork of teaching, never had us use our books in class (though it 
was death on anyone who didn't do the reading!) and appreciated it 
when in our discussions we got excited enough to argue heatedly with 
each other or even with him! We were at least a century ahead of 
the other history sections at all times, and still we often spent 
a whole class period in earnest discussion of current events. 
There was certainly no lesson plan engraved in stone. Just as Fred, 
George, and Lee Jordan immediately were impressed with Moody ("Moody! 
How cool is he!". . . "Beyond cool." "Supercool."), a lot of the 
merrily unstudious if still very smart people in our class went to 
lengths studying and writing papers for his class that you never would 
have believed them capable of. And when our teacher was irritated with 
us, thought we weren't putting in enough effort, he would threaten us 
with LESS work, tell us we clearly just wanted to be "spoon-fed" our 
lessons, and spend maybe one class period just reading out of the 
book. This inevitably made us all thoroughly miserable and had us 
begging him to make us work harder by the next class. :)
JKR has apparently said that the real Moody "is even cooler" than the 
fake Moody. This I have to see. I think that Crouch is probably the 
most effective and frightening villain we've seen so far--more so, in 
fact, than Voldemort. He was made into such an attractive figure of a 
teacher, and furthermore, he managed to beautifully fake friendship 
and kindness towards Dumbledore and Harry, Hermione and Neville, and 
probably many others, without this elaborate farce ever penetrating 
beyond his appearance--without ever being drawn into truly caring 
about any of them. I and many of us never had any idea of Moody being 
the traitor the whole time we were reading; his faked concern seemed 
for all intents and purposes to be genuine. But from Moody's 
explanation of his whole plan at the end of the book, he never spoke a 
kind word or gave help to any student, whether it was Neville, Harry, 
Hermione, or anyone else, without some specific reason behind it. As 
for his explanation of the three Forbidden Curses, I think that there 
was probably good reason behind that as well. While the students were 
frightened by the curses they saw, they were fascinated in spite of 
themselves. Yes, perhaps if you see what you're up against you will be 
better prepared to deal with it when it comes. But after years of 
learning Summoning Charms and Banishing Charms and laboriously 
turning pincushions into hedgehogs, seeing magic with that kind of 
apparently easy and immediate power could be very attractive to a 
person, especially one so young, who has no real idea of the 
suffering such curses can cause. Ron comes out of the lesson saying 
"When he did Avada Kedavra, the way that spider just DIED, just 
snuffed it right there--", in a way that clearly suggests that he is 
impressed in spite of himself, though he is checked by the look on 
Harry's face. Hermione, Harry, and Neville all are more shaken than 
impressed--Harry and Neville, after all, know that there is far more 
to fear in these curses than their effects on spiders. 
Ron does seem to be the weakest of the main triad; it may well be that 
he will be led into betraying Harry. Of course, Harry is of almost 
superhuman bravery, will, and moral fiber. Rowling gives Harry, so far 
at least, only just above average magical talent. It is not his 
magical strength that saves him from Voldemort every time, but always 
his own bravery and will, and the help of his friends. It is, after 
all, Gryffindor that is the "good" house, and Gryffindor is 
characterized by its moral strength. Slytherin seems to be more the 
place for the young magical prodigies, as Voldemort himself was. 
Slytherin has, after all, a long history of winning the House 
Championship.

Sorry for the over-long post,
Alexandra 





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 06:05:04 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:05:04 -0000
Subject: Wizarding schools-an idea
In-Reply-To: <8vsqdf+f60l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vstig+uo2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6127

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nlpnt at y... wrote:
> This is from an as-yet-unpublished fanfic (okay, I'm still working 
on 
> it!)
>  Area 51 in Nevada contains the world's largest all-wizard community

I guess this means you want comments.  You probably wont like mine, 
but my gut reaction is

NONONONONONONONONONONO please NO!  Not Area 51!! Please spare us from 
Harry Potter meets the X-files.  I firmly belief in apartheid for 
mythical beings, please let us keep our aliens and our wizards 
carefully segregated.  Please do not mix your metaphors.  I beg you, 
let Scully and Mulder go about their business without trying to 
recruit Harry and Hermione.

Of course, thats just my preference.  There are probably a lot of 
people who would think its cool.

--Joywitch




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Nov 27 11:12:34 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:12:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <20001127111234.2047.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6128

[snip]
> > The number of students at school, however, will in
> some countries
> > differ from the Hogwarts-number.  In  Norway, for
> instance, the
> > educational system is different from Britain, with
> the result that
> > Norwegian magical children would have to go
> magical school from
> > they are 6 years old (7 years old before 1997),
> and stay till they
> > are 19 years old.
> 
> Surely Norway has some way for children to transfer
> from one school to 
> another when their parents move house. When they're
> old enough to go 
> to wizarding school, their old Muggle school can be
> given 
> paperwork indicating that they moved out of town.

I do not think that would work - if one of the
children was magical and the others mundane, it would
draw attention if one was pulled out of school all of 
a sudden.  You cannot really force the family to move
away, either.  Also, going to private schools or
boardingschools is really not that common in Norway. 
Norwegian children invariably go to the closest school
in their school-district.  

I think that on general principle the
wizarding-education would mirror the muggle-education
of the region that the wizarding-school services.  In
Norway, we start comprehensive school at age 6 (age 7
before 1997), leaving the year we turn 16, when we
start upper secondary or vocational school.  Upper
secondary school last three years, vocational school 2
years plus 2 years apprenticeship.  For
wizarding-education, one could imagine a parallell,
where one goes to the same school all the time, but
the last three years contain the ability to do
specialisation.

Actually, requiring magical children to go to magical
school from normal startign-age for school, would mean
that all magical children had a relatively equivalent
starting-point for their magical education.  One would
probably see an earlier face-in of simpler magical
subjects (magical history, care of magical creatures),
and a later fade-out of muggle-subjects
(muggle-history really should be on the time-table -
avoiding past mistakes is easier if you know the
what/when/where/why of them).

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Nov 27 11:31:22 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:31:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <20001127113122.17859.qmail@web1306.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6129

[snip]
> The New England 
> school IS named New Hogwarts (and might be wittily
> located in Salem 
> MA, altho' I suspected Levettown NJ) even tho' it
> wasn't named by 
> Puritans. 

Was not a Salem Witch Institute mentioned if GoF?

[snip]
> The point, 
> however, is that it doesn't matter if the New
> Orleans school can only 
> scrape together enough students to have graduating
> classes of 2 or 3 
> students (in fact, they would boast of such
> personalized education!) 
> because the school was founded and funded for
> nationalist pride, not 
> for an unfilled need in the marketplace.

Running such a school, however, would be frightfully
expensive, compared to its output.  I do not see it as
something a government would be willing to pay for on
a longterm-basis.  You would need teachers in Potions,
DADA, Astronomy, Transfiguration, Care of Magical
Creatures, Magical History and Arithmancy, at least,
and possibly Divination as well (I am not certain
about the international credibility of divination as a
subject in general).  If you have a teacher in each,
that is seven or eight teachers.  Assuming eight
teachers, and output of three students each year, you
have a student/teacher-ration of 2.6/1.  Assuming a
yearly pay equivalent to USD20 000, and USD1.5/GBP,
and 10GBP/Galleon, that is a yearly pay-per teacher of
1333 Galleons.  Per student, this is 507 galleons or
USD7619 per year, just to cover the teachers' pay. 
Most likely tuition would have to be paid for by
parents, limiting access to those of wealthy origin. 
Sounds like something the Malfoys would have
appreciated.

I am not saying that there aren't schools like this,
mind, though there are none in Britain (Draco would
have gone to it, had there been one).

How many Francophones are there in and around
Louisiana, by the way?

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Nov 27 11:53:14 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:53:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: How long does it take
Message-ID: <20001127115314.9319.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6130

How much time does the Hogwarts express need to get from London to
Hogsmeade?  I presume a speed of 55mph is appropriate for a
steam-powered express-train.  

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Nov 27 11:57:12 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:57:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Magic in South-Africa
Message-ID: <20001127115712.10889.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6131

Where do South-African students go to school?  Do they all go to the
same school; was there a new school for all South-Africa started to
heal the wounds from the apartheid; was there apartheid in
South-African wizarding society?  If there is a common school for all
South-Africans now, could one expect some white wizarding-families to
ship their children North to Durmstrang or Hogwarts to get them to a
'proper' school?  Are there South-Africans on this list who have given
thought to this?

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Mon Nov 27 13:39:01 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:39:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Just had to share
Message-ID: <20001127133901.15157.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6132

http://bigempire.com/postittheater/091100.html

http://bigempire.com/postittheater/100200.html

I think you will understand the relevance...

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Nov 27 18:36:07 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:36:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <8vs2ga+soj9@eGroups.com>
References: <nam12tsalne86db74e2ssejfnprs6vc5at@4ax.com> <8vs2ga+soj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <r7652tc1d9f2sq3t1lapofv00ho53296hb@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6133

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:23:06 -0000, "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>
wrote:

>And in GoF, Molly did the shopping for everyone while they were at 
>the Quidditch Match, and JKR didn't show us Harry giving Molly his 
>key.

That's right, I did not remember this scene. But I think that Harry
had the key of his vault with him because he knew he would have to buy
his school books for the next year. I suppose he gave it to Molly.

>We don't KNOW that Gringotts vault are numbered in any logical way. 

No, we don't. The Goblins could use magic to find a vault if they are
not numbered in a logical way, but it seems more likely to me at least
that they are numbered "normally". If they were not numbered in a
logical way, numbering them would not make any sense at all. 

Monika




--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Nov 27 18:36:06 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:36:06 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <8vrmho+8liu@eGroups.com>
References: <nam12tsalne86db74e2ssejfnprs6vc5at@4ax.com> <8vrmho+8liu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <66952t8q5mk1nlcg6djnv90b9gudgrd7kh@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6134

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:59:04 -0000, "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
wrote:

>I have always imagined that the note Sirius gave Crookshanks said 
>something like:  Send a Firebolt to Harry Potter at Hogwarts, and 
>take the gold from Gringotts vault number 711, password Abracadabra. 

Yes, he must have given the goblins a password because he could not
show up personally in London.

>It is very odd that the vault number was taken out of the American 
>edition, though.  But the 700 series vaults may not be high security, 
>just those that the goblins lock/unlock when given the correct 
>password 

Vault number 713 *is* a high securitiy vault. We are told so at page
107 of the American paperback edition of SS: "Did you hear about
Gringotts? It's been all over the Daily Prophet, but I don't suppose
you get that with the Muggles - someone tried to rob a high security
vault."

>Or, most likely, it is just something JKR 
>wrote down without really thinking about.

I don't think that Ms Rowling would write something like that without
thinking about it. Why are we told the number of the vault Hagrid
takes the philosopher's stone from? The number is not important at
all, the important thing is the stone itself. And we aren't told the
number of James' and Lily's vault. And it sounds very odd to me that
Sirius mentions the number of his vault in his letter to Harry. If you
buy a present for someone you normally would not tell him/her this
kind of detail, would you? It's just too weird.

Monika



--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 19:26:06 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:26:06 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <r7652tc1d9f2sq3t1lapofv00ho53296hb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8vucge+85cm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6135

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> wrote:
> >We don't KNOW that Gringotts vault are numbered in any logical 
way. 
> 
> No, we don't. The Goblins could use magic to find a vault if they 
are
> not numbered in a logical way, but it seems more likely to me at 
least
> that they are numbered "normally". If they were not numbered in a
> logical way, numbering them would not make any sense at all. 

Except that wizards do seem to have some sort of magical way of 
relating to numbers.  After all there are 29 sickles to the galleon 
and 17 knuts to the sickle, or maybe the other way around.  This 
implies that wizards must have a magical way to do arithmetic, since 
very few people can multiply by 29 or 17 in their heads.  Maybe the 
wizard number magic carries over into some bizarre system of 
numbering the Gringotts vaults.  Whatever the system is, it is clear 
that the magical community has a whole different science of 
mathematics than we muggles do.  That must be what Hermione is 
studying in her Arithmancy class.

--Joywitch




From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 27 19:29:38 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:29:38 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Covers... Complete.
Message-ID: <8vucn2+tha6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6136

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/covergallery.htm





From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 27 19:34:31 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:34:31 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
In-Reply-To: <8vpnhu+s87f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vud07+thhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6137

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rachelle " <relliott at j...> wrote:
> I think that Arabella Figg (AKA.  Mrs. Figg) is Harry's secret 
> keeper.  She was referred to in SS and GoF.
> 
> 
> 

Isn't Mrs. Figgs the old lady that the Dursleys leave in charge of 
Harry during Dudley's birthday outings?




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Nov 27 19:38:43 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:38:43 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Gringotts vault
In-Reply-To: <r7652tc1d9f2sq3t1lapofv00ho53296hb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8vud83+oc01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6138


> No, we don't. The Goblins could use magic to find a vault if they 
are
> not numbered in a logical way, but it seems more likely to me at 
least
> that they are numbered "normally". If they were not numbered in a
> logical way, numbering them would not make any sense at all. 

Of course, we don't know what's normal for goblins. The Library of 
Congress now shelves books by dimensions of the book, size and shape, 
not subject, since the computer can find it no matter where they put 
it and it saves a lot of space to store things together that are of 
the same size. It doesn't seem logical or normal to us, who are used 
to the Dewey system and libraries organized for humans to find 
things, but it makes perfect sense in that context. So who knows what 
the goblins' system is, especially since the carts are not steered or 
directed by the goblin but purely by magic.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 19:43:32 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:43:32 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (long) Re: Schools all around
Message-ID: <4d.409e0a4.27541364@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6139

In a message dated 11/26/2000 5:50:24 AM Central Standard Time, 
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com writes:

<< What a lovely description of the Hill Country.  You don't happen to 
 work for the tourism board, do you?>>

Nope I don't, but I went to camp near Kerrville and a bit later in life 
attend UT Austin and I miss the hill country so much!  Dallas is ok, but it 
really doesn't compare ....

 <So, Texan wizard children would  stay instate why?>

Because Texas is the best place to be, of course! <g>

 <There would be enough of them to justify a TX  wizarding school of its own? 
>

Possibly not, but we could accept students from New Mexico, Oklahoma, etc.  
Maybe even Mexico.

<They wouldn't dare call it "Lone Star  Wizards" or something like that, 
would they?  With an armadillo  mascot even... >>


Cool idea!

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*
Quidditch is life ... the rest is just details.



From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Mon Nov 27 20:39:34 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 27 Nov 2000 20:39:34 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <975357574.18274@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6140


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /HP drawings/time-turner.jpg 
  Uploaded by : lmrourke at snet.net 
  Description : "Time Turner" 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/HP+drawings/time-turner%2Ejpg 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

lmrourke at snet.net
 






From lmrourke at snet.net  Mon Nov 27 20:55:07 2000
From: lmrourke at snet.net (Lisa Rourke)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:55:07 -0500
Subject: Time Turner
Message-ID: <000b01c058b4$6cb913c0$cbd43ccc@krass>

No: HPFGUIDX 6141

Hi.  I found this advertisement in my Sunday paper and thought that it would
be of particular interest to the MoM.  Maybe someone should notify Arthur
Weasley in the Misuse of Muggle Artifactc Office.   But not before I buy one
for myself. ;-).  The file was uploaded in message #6140.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Nov 27 21:36:24 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:36:24 -0700
Subject: Secret-Keeper Conundrum
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEGNCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6142

If witches or wizards can hide their existence by the use of a Secret
Keeper, then theoretically, if the Secret Keeper died, that witch or wizard
could be permanently "invisible" to everyone.  Interesting thought...
Suppose you planned to commit a major crime, and convinced one of your
flunkeys to be your secret keeper.  All you'd have to do is kill the
secret-keeper and the law couldn't find you to arrest you.  Sirius could get
Harry to be his Secret Keeper, and never have to worry about being captured
by Dementors or the Ministry of Magic, since Harry would never tell.

This is assuming that the Secret Keeper spell works against everyone.  I
would assume it did, since if you had a "selective" spell that hid you from
one specific person or group, it wouldn't be totally safe because of the
presence of possible traitors.  For instance, if the Potters had set their
spell to work only against Voldemort, then all Voldemort would have had to
do is put a friend of the Potters under an Imperius Curse, to find the
hidden Potters and kill them.  Voldemort would never have to worry about not
being able to see them himself.

This is why I don't think that anyone is Harry's "Secret Keeper" -- if Harry
was truly hidden while he was at the Dursleys, then NO ONE should have been
able to discover his location.  But we've seen that even Lucius Malfoy's
house elf was able to find Harry and apparate into his bedroom at the
Dursleys.  The Weasleys drove up to Harry's bedroom window in CoS.
Something else is protecting Harry during his time away from Hogwarts. It
will be interesting to find out what it is...

Does that make sense?





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Nov 27 22:27:59 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:27:59 -0000
Subject: Completely OT--election related
Message-ID: <8vun5f+a66o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6143

I know you will all hate me for making this now-forbidden election-
related post, but I will bear my punishment witchfully because I just 
could not resist -- Joywitch

Fwd: A view from the developing world

>From an article in which a Zimbabwe politician was quoted as saying 
that children should study this event closely for it shows that 
election fraud is not only a third world phenomenon...

1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the 
third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the 
former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the 
former head ofthat nation's secret police (CIA).

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but 
won based on some old colonial holdover (Electoral College) from the 
nation's pre-democracy past. 

3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on 
disputedvotes cast in a province governed by his brother!

4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a 
district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led 
thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

5. Imagine that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing 
for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in 
near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy.

6. Imagine that state police operating under the authority of the 
self-declared winner's brother intercepted hundreds of members of 
thatmost-despised caste on their way to the polls.

7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and 
that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, 
certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error.

8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party 
opposeda more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the 
ballots in thedisputed province or in its most hotly disputed 
district.

9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a 
major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in 
his nationand actually led the nation in executions.

10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner 
was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime 
positions onthe high court of that nation.

None of us would deem such an election to be representative of 
anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of 
us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was 
another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some 
strange elsewhere.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 27 22:53:01 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:53:01 -0000
Subject: [POSH} Translation from English to American, Please?
In-Reply-To: <8v951m+su8u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vuokd+9jpd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6144

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Pam Scruton" <Pam at b...> wrote:

> The word Posh is commonly believed to have originally been an 
> acronym for Port Over Starboard Home (snip)
> [not] a more reasonable explanation than the one suggesting the 
> word is a contraction of 'polish' - polished manners, polished 
> English accents and grammar.

Radio show "Says You" (a kind of cross between "My Word" and 
"Information, Please") http://www.wgbh.org/wgbh/radio/saysyou/ just 
said that POSH comes from a Middle Eastern word 'pash' meaning 'half' 
which was the name of a small coin and went into English slang as 
meaning 'coin', thus POSH to mean 'rich'. Not all the correct 
(winning) answers on Says You are correct! Last year they accepted 
Port Outbound Starboard Home because of the nicer view.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 27 23:09:33 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:09:33 -0000
Subject: Tragedy/Snape (was:Crouch Summary
In-Reply-To: <002901c05821$df6558e0$59d0320c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8vupjd+qrse@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6145

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> 
wrote:

> Same thing with Snape and JKR  - she is pouring 100% of her 
> literary ability into Severus to create a complex and imperishable
> character. 

Actually, I am not sure how much of the complexity and 
imperishability comes from what JKR wrote and how much from us fans, 
in our speculation and fanfic, perhaps based rather more on what we 
already had in our minds and hearts than on what we read on her 
pages. Certainly, it is her literary skill that made him quite so 
poisonously nasty to the Gryffindor children to whom he speaks (when 
I try to write Snape, I CAN NOT write his lines nasty enough to be 
authentic), dropped all the red herrings in Book 1, and came up with 
the very dramatic idea of a turned Death Eater...




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 27 23:11:28 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:11:28 -0000
Subject: "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10011262248250.6520-100000@eclipse>
Message-ID: <8vupn0+6pa9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6146

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ashley Kelly <ak928 at b...> wrote:
> Just a quick note... i got to ask a question of JKR in one of her
> online chats last month and I asked whether we would see the real
> moody in a following book and whether or not he would be as cool as
> the fake moody. [She answered:]Yes, the real Moody will be in
> following books and he "is even cooler"

I SAW THAT IN A CHAT TRANSCRIPT!!! I had no idea that it was someone 
on a same group I am! How exciting! 




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Nov 27 23:46:27 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:46:27 -0000
Subject: Salem (was: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <20001127113122.17859.qmail@web1306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8vuroj+eeg7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6147

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christian Stub? <rhodhry at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Was not a Salem Witch Institute mentioned if GoF?

At the Quidditch World Cup campground, there were several 
middle-aged witches on beach chairs under a banner reading SALEM 
WITCHES' INSTITUTE

A lot of people seem to think that that would be some kind of school 
(then why only middle-aged women, no students?). *I* think it is a 
pun on WOMEN'S INSTITUTE, which I have learned from Agatha Christie 
mysteries and similar reliable sources is or was a kind of club for 
rural women in England. Remember, the description of Ron's Chudley 
Cannons poster: seven wizards and witches, where us Muggles would 
have said seven men and women?

I gather that early in the 20th century, some upperclass ladies 
decided, as an act of charity, to start an organization to which 
lowerclass women would come on the lure of socializing with each 
other and spending a couple of hours away from husband and children, 
and there be taught classes in Home Economics, Nutrition, and other 
modern scientific theories of how to do all the jobs that their 
mothers had taught them how to do. Mystery novels set in rural USA 
have the wives running off to Eastern Star or their church's Women's 
Alliance instead.

> Running such a school, however, would be frightfully
> expensive, compared to its output.  I do not see it as
> something a government would be willing to pay for on
> a longterm-basis.  You would need teachers in Potions,
> DADA, Astronomy, Transfiguration, Care of Magical
> Creatures, Magical History and Arithmancy, at least,
> and possibly Divination as well 

Part-time teachers. The community colleges here in California save a 
great deal of money by using part-time professors. I was very glad to 
be taught COBOL, JCL, and other computer job skills in the evenings 
by people who spent their days doing those things at their jobs, and 
the college was very glad to pay them small wages: they didn't need 
the money to live on because they had their day jobs, and they didn't 
need big money to motivate them to teach because the money was only 
one of their motivations, others include the joy of teaching and it 
looking good on their resumes. 

However, the community colleges discovered that hiring four part-time 
professors to carry the same teaching load as one full-timer costs 
less than hiring one full-timer (among other things, no health 
insurance or other benefits), with the result that many young PhDs 
teach 'part-time' at four or five community colleges, just as much 
work, much more commuting, and much less pay than teaching 
'full-time'. 

I mean the part-time teachers at small wizarding schools to be true 
part-timers. With few enough students, the teacher might teach one 
day a week, one hour per each grade (year). Seven hours of teaching 
and the rest of the week to correct homework, make lesson plans, and 
so on. The kind of traditionalism we have seen in the British 
wizarding world suggests that the part-time teachers might be 
housewives whose children have grown up. They might do it as 
volunteer work, no pay at all. Maybe they are retired witches and 
wizards.

The full-time staff would include foreign young graduates willing to 
teach for just their room and board, the chance to see USA, and being 
able to put a line on their resumes. 

This does give one to wonder how good an education students get at 
some proud institutions as The Lone Star School (Texas), L'Academie 
Nouveaxbatons (New Orleans), La Lycee Magie du Nord (Quebec), etc.  





From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 28 00:07:57 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:07:57 -0000
Subject: Salem (was: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <8vuroj+eeg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vut0t+5lb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6148

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> This does give one to wonder how good an education students get at 
> some proud institutions as The Lone Star School (Texas), L'Academie 
> Nouveaxbatons (New Orleans), La Lycee Magie du Nord (Quebec), etc.

I have a hard time visualizing a Lone Star School for witches and 
wizards...the ordinary Texas college kids get in enough trouble as it 
is. Picture a school set in New Mexico or Arizona, where the Pueblo 
people live(d), where the magical traditions of the original peoples 
have been preserved and expanded? A lot of the students would be 
Native Americans.




From relliott at jvlnet.com  Tue Nov 28 00:36:44 2000
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:36:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?
References: <8vud07+thhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c058d3$4986f920$c7b291d8@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6149

To:    Odile
Yes, she is.  She has been referenced several times in the book series.  It
was stated several times that Harry is in the protection of "ancient magic"
when he is with his relatives.  Well, a 'secret keeper' curse was evoked to
protect the Potter family.  In GoF, I started to get suspicious of Mrs.
Figg.  The couple of references I picked up are: 1) The tent the Weasley's
borrow, Harry comments that it looks and smells like Mrs. Figg.  2) When
Harry is forced to say in his cupboard after the Zoo incident, he has his
longest punishment ever. When he is finally released, he discover that
Dudley had "knocked down old Mrs. Figg as she crossed Privet Drive on her
crutches." Why was she on Privet Drive on crutches, with a broken leg? Maybe
looking after Harry because he hadn't been outside for weeks? And what about
her cats?  3) Harry made a reference that when he was looking outside, there
isn't a living creature in sight, "not even a cat."Are they watching harry
for her? Are the cats really Animagi.
From:    Rachelle



----- Original Message -----
From: Odile <oalburquerque at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 1:34 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore is the Secret-Keeper?


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rachelle " <relliott at j...> wrote:
> > I think that Arabella Figg (AKA.  Mrs. Figg) is Harry's secret
> > keeper.  She was referred to in SS and GoF.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Isn't Mrs. Figgs the old lady that the Dursleys leave in charge of
> Harry during Dudley's birthday outings?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 28 01:23:11 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:23:11 -0000
Subject: Hagrids House (Hut)
Message-ID: <8vv1dv+b0l2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6150

Found this today...

http://filmforce.ign.com/news/1697.html

errr, that's not quite how I pictured Hagrid's humble abode, but it 
is interesting.  What do you think? Hmmm

Scott




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 28 01:59:07 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:59:07 -0500
Subject: Wizardign Schools: The Salem Witches Institute
Message-ID: <3A23116B.86F9DAD5@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6151

Hey guys! Remember those witches from Salem at the Quidditch match? Come
on!

Salem has the oldest and most esteemed magical institutes in the United
States! It is university level and single-sex-- a place for
forward-thinking intellectual witches since the 17th century!

Perhaps Hermione will come here after her graduation for some advance
study? We do have fellowships....

Grinz,

Suzanne




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 28 02:06:49 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:06:49 -0500
Subject: Salem Witches Institute, cont.
Message-ID: <3A231339.42327145@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6152



Since the muggles have their Ivy League and Seven Sisters-- why should
we? *brigth eyes*

I like this idea..... The Salem Witches Institute would be sort of like
the Bunting Institute at Radcliffe College. A sort of magical and
feminist think tank for the best female scholars from all over the
world. They would do independent research and hold symposiums on various
subjects for the younger students and for the general wizarding public.

Hmmmmmm......




From drmm at fuuko.com  Tue Nov 28 02:38:37 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (DrMM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:38:37 -0600
Subject: Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <975358419.5837@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001127203156.00a915f0@mail.fuuko.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6153

<<Hmmm.  I am probably the wrong person to ask; I have a pretty narrow
vision of what makes a tragic character.  Dr. MM might see Lockhart
as tragic, I have to say that I really dont.  A tragic character is
generally one whose tragedy stems from circumstances beyond his/her
control, compounded by his/her cowardly response>>

Eh?  I don't see Lockhart as a tragic character.  From what we saw of him 
in CoS he certainly didn't give any indication that he had a tragic 
character to me (aka lousy childhood, etc.).

If I may quote Ron, I see him as a "stupid git" (or something like 
that).  His desire for fame (and lack of ability to get there without 
memory charms) rules all of his motivations.  While Snape certainly wants 
to be famous, he is motivated by other emotions (love and hate) besides his 
desire for fame.

JMO :)

DrMM
*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM is found at drmm at fuuko.com
http://www.fuuko.com
ICQ: #9689360
Most recent anime: Magic Knights Rayearth




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Nov 28 04:07:57 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:07:57 -0000
Subject: Four Corners (was: Salem (was: Schools all around
In-Reply-To: <8vut0t+5lb2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vvb2t+vhbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6154

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:

> Picture a school set in New Mexico or Arizona, where the Pueblo 
> people live(d), where the magical traditions of the original peoples 
> have been preserved and expanded? A lot of the students would be 
> Native Americans.

I don't know whether the Native American wizarding folk north of 
Mexico educate their young-uns in school or by some other method such 
as apprenticeship. A suggestion that once was made that there is a 
Navajo-Apache-Puebloan wizarding school in the traditionally magical 
Four Corners region would require that the wizarding folk put away a 
great deal of Muggle ethnic hostility and bring in a lot of language 
translation. 

We-uns will never know about it, as (in my universe) the Native 
American wizarding folk north of Mexico keep themselves entirely 
hidden from Euro-American wizarding folk AND Euro-American Muggles. 

I imagine that they would Very Much limit their contact with 
African-Americans and with the Central and South American wizarding 
folk who have included/adopted all wizards and witches born in their 
land regardless of race. Because if you are in contact with too many 
people who are in contact with Euro-Americans, there is more chance 
that one of the people you are in contact with will let the 
Euro-Amerians know about you.

I often wonder whether they avoid their relatives the Native American 
Muggles for the same reason -- which would cause wizarding children 
born to Native American Muggle parents to have no choice for magical 
education except the racially integrated schools.  

There's room for a couple of epics in there, but the writer would 
have to be not only a good writer, but a not-too-assimilated Native 
American himerself, and HP is sort of a very-assimilated interest, 
yes?




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Nov 28 04:09:58 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:09:58 -0000
Subject: Hagrids House (Hut)
In-Reply-To: <8vv1dv+b0l2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vvb6m+soci@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6155


> 
> errr, that's not quite how I pictured Hagrid's humble abode, but it 
> is interesting.  What do you think? Hmmm

I don't think it's right. For one thing, it doesn't look to me like 
it's made of wood, and Hagrid's hut is definitely made of wood. 
That's one of many reasons why HR&H tell him it's not a good idea to 
raise a dragon there. But it's certainly interesting to look at. It 
looks interestingly magical or at least fairy-tale-ish.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From editor at texas.net  Tue Nov 28 04:38:27 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:38:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrids House (Hut)
References: <8vv1dv+b0l2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A2336C2.85FBB4DF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6156

Scott wrote:

> http://filmforce.ign.com/news/1697.html
>
> errr, that's not quite how I pictured Hagrid's humble abode, but it
> is interesting.  What do you think? Hmmm

That's awful. I expect a gnome to pop out the door. It looks like my kid's
Jan Brett illustrations, or the stuff in Poortvliet's "Gnomes." Ugh. I
wanted a cabin, something of wood, something darker colored--you know. A
shack. Not this thing that looks like it escaped from a snowglobe. Bleah.

--Amanda




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov 28 04:33:13 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:33:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch Summary
References: <8vsnak+d3hk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A233589.501310E7@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6157

Joywitch wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" <gypsycaine at y...>
> wrote:
> > In the below scenario, Joywitch, would you also then classify our
> favorite
> > ham as a classic tragic character?
>
> Hmmm.  I am probably the wrong person to ask; I have a pretty narrow
> vision of what makes a tragic character.  <snip>
>
> Guilt/innocence/tragedy/evil are tough things to grapple with, so I
> will leave any further analysis to the heavy philosophical hitters
> like Peg.
>
> --Joywitch

Yikes!  Don't I already have enough on my plate?




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Nov 28 04:35:48 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:35:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secret-Keeper Conundrum
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEGNCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A233624.D7BEAF38@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6158

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> If witches or wizards can hide their existence by the use of a Secret
> Keeper, then theoretically, if the Secret Keeper died, that witch or wizard
> could be permanently "invisible" to everyone.  Interesting thought...
> Suppose you planned to commit a major crime, and convinced one of your
> flunkeys to be your secret keeper.  All you'd have to do is kill the
> secret-keeper and the law couldn't find you to arrest you.  Sirius could get
> Harry to be his Secret Keeper, and never have to worry about being captured
> by Dementors or the Ministry of Magic, since Harry would never tell.
>
> This is assuming that the Secret Keeper spell works against everyone.  I
> would assume it did, since if you had a "selective" spell that hid you from
> one specific person or group, it wouldn't be totally safe because of the
> presence of possible traitors.  For instance, if the Potters had set their
> spell to work only against Voldemort, then all Voldemort would have had to
> do is put a friend of the Potters under an Imperius Curse, to find the
> hidden Potters and kill them.  <snip>
>
> Does that make sense?

Hmm.  Yes, it does . . . and I think it should be noted for the record that you
have a seriously devious, twisty mind.

Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Nov 28 05:31:01 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 05:31:01 -0000
Subject: Boxer Shorts
Message-ID: <8vvful+4k5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6159

It seems that a number of recent fanfics have depicted the 
characters running around in their boxer shorts. (It is no more 
immodest for them to sleep in t-shirt and boxer shorts than in a 
nightgown, altho' my friend Lee yelped in horror, as if she had never 
heard of such a thing, and told me that decent people wear pajamas or 
nightgowns or nothing; I told her that when I lived in a college 
dorm, where wearing nothing was not entirely practical, I slept in a 
t-shirt over underwear.)

But it occured to me that authors less than half my age may not know 
that the Marauders DID NOT wear boxer shorts during their school 
days. That was in the 1970s, and in those days, NO ONE wore boxer 
shorts except fat old men with RICHARD NIXON bumperstickers on 
their cars. In those days, the question wasn't 'boxers or briefs?', 
it was 'briefs or bikinis?'. 

The menfolks, very annoyingly, generally refused to wear bikinis, 
despite looking so good in them. They even refused to wear the brand 
named Undawear that's Funtawear, which was lavishly illustrated, 
with an appropriately placed central design motif such as a 
banana, hot dog, fire hydrant....




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 28 08:02:37 2000
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:02:37 -0000
Subject: Wizarding schools-an idea
In-Reply-To: <8vstig+uo2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8vvoqt+7vlf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6160

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nlpnt at y... wrote:
> > This is from an as-yet-unpublished fanfic (okay, I'm still 
working 
> on 
> > it!)
> >  Area 51 in Nevada contains the world's largest all-wizard 
community
> 
> I guess this means you want comments.  You probably wont like mine, 
> but my gut reaction is
> 
> NONONONONONONONONONONO please NO!  Not Area 51!! Please spare us 
from 
> Harry Potter meets the X-files.  


Not what I had in mind at all! The whole alien-government theing was 
cooked up b/c the entire town is too modern to be charmed into a 
moldering ruin; the original sighting came about when the wizards 
magicked a hubcap from a '39 DeSoto to 100x it's original size, and 
charmed it to fly over the "neighbors'" farms.




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Tue Nov 28 08:02:51 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:02:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boxer Shorts
Message-ID: <20001128080251.26640.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6161

> The menfolks, very annoyingly, generally refused to wear bikinis, 
> despite looking so good in them. They even refused to wear the brand 
> named Undawear that's Funtawear, which was lavishly illustrated, 
> with an appropriately placed central design motif such as a 
> banana, hot dog, fire hydrant....

I Wonder why...

=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Nov 28 14:50:50 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:50:50 -0000
Subject: That V-Word is Scaring Us
Message-ID: <900goa+vt1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6162

That V-Word is Scaring Us

(to the tune of The Age of Aquarius)

(Enter Chorus of Hogwarts students, faculty, and sundry Hogsmeade 
residents.  Enter, from opposite direction, Harry Potter, Albus 
Dumbledore, Remus Lupin, and Sirius Black)

CHORUS 
When the Dark Lord fell from power
And became so faint and lame
He could no longer make us cower
But we're still too afraid to say his name

It may seem mental but
That V-Word is scaring us 
It sounds so precarious
It's scaring us!
So nefarious!
Try sparing us!

HARRY, DUMBLEDORE, LUPIN, BLACK
If you bring yourselves to say it
Its spell upon you will disperse
If you have courage, then display it!
Do not fear his Cruciatus curse.

CHORUS
We're not quite the courageous sort
So we won't say the name of Volde ? oops!

CHORUS
(simultaneously with below)
You almost had us, and 
That V-Word's still scaring us 
With a horror vicarious
It's impairing us!
It's not hilarious!
Stop daring us!

HARRY, DUMBLEDORE, LUPIN, BLACK
(simultaneously with above)
We almost had you, but
That V-Word's still scaring you
Because you lack derring-do
It's impairing you!
But we're preparing to
Vanquish You-Know-Who!

	- CMC





From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Nov 28 14:55:55 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:55:55 -0000
Subject: Secret-Keeper Conundrum
In-Reply-To: <3A233624.D7BEAF38@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <900h1r+jt0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6163

It would seem that like so many things in the magical world, the 
Fidelius Charm is immensely powerful and has the potential for 
serious misuse. That's really not unlike a lot of things in our 
world, from the Internet to nuclear power to insecticides. We manage 
and control them with rules and a certain amount of personal 
morality. I think we can assume that the same holds true for the 
Wizarding World. There are undoubtedly rules for using charms like 
this, just like there are rules about becoming an Animagus. I would 
also assume that it's a complicated and difficult spell to perform, 
one which most witches and wizards wouldn't dare try. And I would 
assume that writers of fiction in the Wizarding world write suspense 
novels about terrorists who threaten to use these charms in terrible 
ways and heroic but renegade Ministry witches and wizards who defeat 
them in exciting, somewhat implausable ways.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Nov 28 19:48:27 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:48:27 -0000
Subject: Wizarding schools-an idea
In-Reply-To: <8vvoqt+7vlf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <90126b+55s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6164

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nlpnt at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, nlpnt at y... wrote:
> > > This is from an as-yet-unpublished fanfic (okay, I'm still 
> working 
> > on 
> > > it!)
> > >  Area 51 in Nevada contains the world's largest all-wizard 
> community
> > 
> > I guess this means you want comments.  You probably wont like 
mine, 
> > but my gut reaction is
> > 
> > NONONONONONONONONONONO please NO!  Not Area 51!! Please spare us 
> from 
> > Harry Potter meets the X-files.  
> 
> 
> Not what I had in mind at all! 
::breathes a sigh of relief::

> The whole alien-government theing was 
> cooked up b/c the entire town is too modern to be charmed into a 
> moldering ruin; the original sighting came about when the wizards 
> magicked a hubcap from a '39 DeSoto to 100x it's original size, and 
> charmed it to fly over the "neighbors'" farms.

OK, I can live with that.  In fact, I like it -- I can see the Daily 
Prophet headlines now: Practical Joke Makes Muggles Think Aliens Have 
Landed.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 00:29:53 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:29:53 -0000
Subject: Wizard Schools and Transportation
Message-ID: <901im1+7o6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6165

The recent comments on wizard school have been pretty interesting.  I 
don't have a whole lot to add but here's a thought.

Someone was talking about a wizard day school, and also about Texas 
school.  There were comments on the Texan houses and such but here's 
a thought- maybe most wizard schools AREN'T boarding schools at all.  
I mean while we assume (at least I did) that Beauxbatons and 
Durmstrang were also boarding schools there is no clear evidence 
(that I recall) which would rule out either as day schools, in fact 
most private(US)/public(UK) schools are day schools. In other words, 
Hogwarts is the only school we really know about but it may or may 
not be the norm.

Also a thought on Transportation, namely Floo Powder.  I don't know 
if it is just me but I see this as being a lower class form of 
Transportation (at least I don't think people like the Malfoys would 
ever use it...) Kind of like taking a Greyhound bus from New York to 
LA, as opposed to an aeroplane (or at least comparable to first 
class/coach.)  So if that is true I think there is another type o 
transportation we've not seen yet.  Something easier than apparating, 
more convinent than portkeys, and better than floo powder.  Any 
Ideas, or am I rambling on incessantely without making sense? (and 
isn't it bad enough even if I AM making sense??  Ok I'll shut up.)

Scott   




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Nov 29 01:03:37 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:03:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation
In-Reply-To: <901im1+7o6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEHPCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6166

On the subject of transportation, it's odd that we never read about any of
the adults traveling by broomstick.  It seems that the only thing adults use
brooms for is to play Quidditch.


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:harry_potter00 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 5:30 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation

Also a thought on Transportation, namely Floo Powder.  I don't know
if it is just me but I see this as being a lower class form of
Transportation (at least I don't think people like the Malfoys would
ever use it...) Kind of like taking a Greyhound bus from New York to
LA, as opposed to an aeroplane (or at least comparable to first
class/coach.)  So if that is true I think there is another type o
transportation we've not seen yet.  Something easier than apparating,
more convinent than portkeys, and better than floo powder.  Any
Ideas, or am I rambling on incessantely without making sense? (and
isn't it bad enough even if I AM making sense??  Ok I'll shut up.)

Scott




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov 29 01:26:00 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:26:00 -0000
Subject: Fields Pictures are here!
Message-ID: <901lv8+e2lj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6167

Hello everyone,
	I have uploaded some pictures of the Chicago Marshall Fields Harry 
Potter display windows to the HP graphics files section. The windows 
are at the State street store in the Loop and definitely worth a
visit 
if you are in the area. 
Pippin
http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/Fields+Display+
Windows/

Be sure to copy the whole link into your browser.





From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 29 01:45:06 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:45:06 -0000
Subject: Secret-Keeper Conundrum
In-Reply-To: <900h1r+jt0k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <901n32+qgr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6168

Or maybe (using Draco D as an off-cannon, but plausible in this 
regard model) once the secret keeper dies the spell is then ended?


Storm





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 02:29:51 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:29:51 -0000
Subject: Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)
Message-ID: <901pmv+qppj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6169

I was just wonder how you got those things (don't know what they are 
called...).  You know the things that come at the end of each message 
and have stuff like "what I'm reading" or "what I'm humming". 

How do you get that????

Scott
Feeling REALLY stupid now




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 29 03:34:35 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:34:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)
References: <901pmv+qppj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A24794A.5CE3CC9A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6170

Scott wrote:

> I was just wonder how you got those things (don't know what they are
> called...).  You know the things that come at the end of each message
> and have stuff like "what I'm reading" or "what I'm humming".
>
> How do you get that????
>
> Scott
> Feeling REALLY stupid now
>

Hi, Scott:

Don't feel stupid; it's a perfectly reasonable question.

What you're referring to are sometimes referred to as "sig lines," short for
signature lines.  You can tell your computer to add them onto every one of
your email messages, or you can type them by hand.  I don't have an
automatically added sig line right now, although I have in the past.  (The
one on this message is typed by hand.  Check your email help function: it
may be indexed under something like "signature" or "preferences" or
"identity" or something like that.

Cheers,
Peg

>>>

"No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably Cooperative
Attitude."




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 04:12:53 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:12:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)  Signatures....
References: <901pmv+qppj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006101c059ba$a593f460$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6171

Hi Scott~

I use an option on my outlook express called signature, you click
TOOLS>OPTIONS>SIGNATURES>NEW and then plop in what you want.  Yahoo has the
option as well, just not certain how to get to it from the menu (just seek,
you'll find it there) I can't vouch for the other email programs out there,
but it makes things easier.  My friend uses it to add on her snail mail
addresses (she does about 300 yahoo-auctions a month) to help save her
typing.
************************************************************
~~Dee~~
:)

"Night is the hardest time to be alive.
 It lasts so long, and 4am knows all my secrets."
(Poppy Brite)

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
************************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott " <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 8:29 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)


> I was just wonder how you got those things (don't know what they are
> called...).  You know the things that come at the end of each message
> and have stuff like "what I'm reading" or "what I'm humming".
>
> How do you get that????
>
> Scott
> Feeling REALLY stupid now
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 04:03:37 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:03:37 -0000
Subject: "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch (long)
In-Reply-To: <8vst9j+6bvk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <901v6p+bln2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6172

> at least, only just above average magical talent. It is not his 
> magical strength that saves him from Voldemort every time, but 
always 
> his own bravery and will, and the help of his friends. It is, after 
> all, Gryffindor that is the "good" house, and Gryffindor is 
> characterized by its moral strength. Slytherin seems to be more the 
> place for the young magical prodigies, as Voldemort himself was. 
> Slytherin has, after all, a long history of winning the House 
> Championship.
> 
> Sorry for the over-long post,
> Alexandra

Wonderful and thought-provoking post...but why do you call Madam
Pomfrey the "school nurse"? Does JKR..I would think witch doctor 
might be more appropriate.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 04:15:31 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:15:31 -0000
Subject: Crouch Summary/tragic hero
In-Reply-To: <3A233589.501310E7@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <901vt3+64nt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6173

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise Rogers" 
<gypsycaine at y...>
> > wrote:
> > > In the below scenario, Joywitch, would you also then classify 
our
> > favorite
> > > ham as a classic tragic character?
> >
> > Hmmm.  I am probably the wrong person to ask; I have a pretty 
narrow
> > vision of what makes a tragic character.  <snip>
> >
> > Guilt/innocence/tragedy/evil are tough things to grapple with, so 
I
> > will leave any further analysis to the heavy philosophical hitters
> > like Peg.


Hmmm...I always thought of a tragic hero as someone who is noble or 
could be noble and has a tragic flaw, and makes a bad choice that 
encompasses his/her own downfall.

I always thought that Shakespeare portrayed Richard III as a villain 
rather than as a tragic hero, whereas in real life he was more of the 
tragic hero.

Arthur takes the action that results in his own death --- by sleeping 
with Mordred's mother

Pentheus in the Bacchae is one of the classic tragic heroes, and I 
would in fact compare him to Bartemius Crouch, Senior..who also loves 
rules, and order. Yes, he should have left the prosecution of his son
to others, but the action that led to his downfall was allowing his 
son to escape from Azkeban. If that had not occurred, he would still 
be alive and running his department at the MoM.

Lupin is another character who falls into this...Snape, despite his 
unpleasantness, might...we need to know the details of why Dumbledore 
trusts him....

Susan





> >
> > --Joywitch
> 
> Yikes!  Don't I already have enough on my plate?




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 04:20:11 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:20:11 -0000
Subject: Hagrids House (Hut)
In-Reply-To: <3A2336C2.85FBB4DF@texas.net>
Message-ID: <90205r+a4kl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6174

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Scott wrote:
> 
> > http://filmforce.ign.com/news/1697.html
> >
> > errr, that's not quite how I pictured Hagrid's humble abode, but 
it
> > is interesting.  What do you think? Hmmm
> 

I had pictured a wood shack, but didn't know until it was posted
that JKR said it was wood. However, I love it. Reminds me of the
ancillary tower in the Blue Sword by Robin McKinley.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 04:21:39 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:21:39 -0000
Subject: Salem Witches Institute, cont.
In-Reply-To: <3A231339.42327145@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <90208j+hna7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6175

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Suzanne Burns <terzarima at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Since the muggles have their Ivy League and Seven Sisters-- why 
should
> we? *brigth eyes*
> 
> I like this idea..... The Salem Witches Institute would be sort of 
like
> the Bunting Institute at Radcliffe College. A sort of magical and
> feminist think tank for the best female scholars from all over the
> world. They would do independent research and hold symposiums on 
various
> subjects for the younger students and for the general wizarding 
public.
> 
> Hmmmmmm......


Actually several of us are already graduates of the Salem Witches 
Institute.....




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 29 04:25:46 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:25:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)
References: <901pmv+qppj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A248549.84AF4CC7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6176

Scott wrote:

> I was just wonder how you got those things (don't know what they are
> called...).  You know the things that come at the end of each message
> and have stuff like "what I'm reading" or "what I'm humming".

I think they're called sig lines, and don't feel stupid, I have asked this
very question before on another group, and gotten no help. I think some
email programs have this as a settable option---outgoing mail should be
configured as, sort of thing. I have Netscape and have not figured out if
it'll do this yet. I'd love to know, too. I'm sure everyone out there is
salivating for my personalized pithy stuff....

--Amanda




From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Wed Nov 29 04:39:20 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:39:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT question)
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED85@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6177

In Netscape, you need to edit your preferences - I think it's the second
menu from the left. (I'm at work, stuck with Outlook here). I believe in the
Identity menu is where you choose the file that will be your signature -
mine is "signature.txt"

Angela


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Amanda Lewanski [SMTP:editor at texas.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, November 29, 2000 12:26 AM
> To:	HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject:	Re: [HPforGrownups] Ok, I'll bite (really stupid OT
> question)
> 
> Scott wrote:
> 
> > I was just wonder how you got those things (don't know what they are
> > called...).  You know the things that come at the end of each message
> > and have stuff like "what I'm reading" or "what I'm humming".
> 
> I think they're called sig lines, and don't feel stupid, I have asked this
> very question before on another group, and gotten no help. I think some
> email programs have this as a settable option---outgoing mail should be
> configured as, sort of thing. I have Netscape and have not figured out if
> it'll do this yet. I'd love to know, too. I'm sure everyone out there is
> salivating for my personalized pithy stuff....
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 04:45:32 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:45:32 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
Message-ID: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6178

Well, I was listening to GoF on tape today, and I had a thought
about sorting.

We all have wondered why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw because of her
focus on scholarship and knowledge (You're the cleverest witch of 
your age I've ever met..said Lupin). 

Chamber of Secrets
"So I SHOULD be in Slytherin." Harry said looking desperately into
Dumbledore's face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin's Power in me 
and it-----"

"Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, 
Harry.... "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Fryffindor. You know why 
that was. Think."

"It only put me in Gryffindor" said Harry in a defeated 
voice. "because I asked not to go in Slytherin..."

"Exactly" said Dumbledore beaming once more "Which makes you very 
different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what 
we truly are, far more than our abilities."

I think we have all assumed that the sorting hat placed students into 
houses based on their abilities. I would suggest that it places the
students in part based on their abilities, in part based on their 
characters, but that the final decision is based on what they truly 
want. We have been confused because Hermione -- obviously an 
outstanding student who is bright, is focused and works hard -- is 
not in Ravenclaw. Well, deep down, Hermione values being brave, 
daring and chivalrous over being smart -- hence she is in Gryffindor.

There is a big difference between people who want to be scholars and 
those who wish to be warriors.

Let's look at Cedric Diggory. At the end of GoF, he turns his back on 
the type of glory that Hufflepuff has not seen for...how many years 
(when we think about how Harry's choice to share the glory with 
Cedric ended in Cedric's death, we must also remember that it was
Cedric's choice as well). Cedric looks pale, yet resolute. When I 
read that the first time....I remembered..you might belong in 
Hufflepuff where they are just and loyal......The hardworking 
citizens belong in Hufflepuff....

So, my thought is that it's where the students really want to be that 
ultimately determines their house placement.

What do others think?

Susan

(whose 3 year old son says every other day..I put you in prison! I 
taking you to Azkeban!)




From editor at texas.net  Wed Nov 29 05:43:37 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:43:37 -0600
Subject: Parseltongue question
Message-ID: <3A249789.77D5166D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6179

Has anyone (but me) wondered why Harry didn't try to *talk* to the
basilisk in the Chamber? Why he didn't yell at it to attack Riddle, or
go away, or anything? He spoke to the snake at the duel without
thinking, almost reflexively. Especially after it was blinded, he could
have confused it. Or would that have messed up a great fight scene?

--Amanda




From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Wed Nov 29 05:44:37 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:44:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parseltongue question
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED87@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6180

Good question! Maybe the basilisk was under Tom's control only. Or maybe
that would have messed up what is a great fight scene.  :-)

Angela

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Amanda Lewanski [SMTP:editor at texas.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, November 29, 2000 1:44 AM
> To:	HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject:	[HPforGrownups] Parseltongue question
> 
> Has anyone (but me) wondered why Harry didn't try to *talk* to the
> basilisk in the Chamber? Why he didn't yell at it to attack Riddle, or
> go away, or anything? He spoke to the snake at the duel without
> thinking, almost reflexively. Especially after it was blinded, he could
> have confused it. Or would that have messed up a great fight scene?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 



From atelecky at mit.edu  Wed Nov 29 07:34:53 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 07:34:53 -0000
Subject: A Hogwarts education, was "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch (long)
In-Reply-To: <901v6p+bln2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <902bit+vehf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6181

> Wonderful and thought-provoking post...but why do you call Madam
> Pomfrey the "school nurse"? Does JKR..I would think witch doctor 
> might be more appropriate.
> 
> Susan

This is true--I just ordinarily think of the person who takes care of 
the students' minor health issues at school as the "school nurse", but 
then I never knew the health clinic at my high school to deal with 
broken bones or anything more serious than headaches and colds. In 
fact, the main function of the health clinic seemed to be judging 
whether or not a child needed to be sent home. Madam Pomfrey fulfills 
more the function of the Med Center at a University, which must deal 
with far more urgent conditions in its students, and is staffed by 
at least some fully qualified doctors rather than only nurse 
practitioners or assistants. While I have some considerable experience 
with the former, I have so far only (thankfully) once made use of the 
latter, when I tipped my chair too far back a couple of weeks ago and 
whacked my head into the corner of the wall :). 
Hogwarts being a boarding school, it is probably a lot more like a 
college or university in many aspects than my high school was. They do 
call their teachers "Professor", which I never did in high school 
though I do now. Then, of course, my roommate went to a boarding 
school, and refers to her old teachers in that way. Did I hear on this 
list that JKR has said that there are no wizarding universities? I 
suppose that, if Hogwarts takes up some of the ordinary functions of 
colleges, Snape and McGonagall and the other professors, like at a 
university, also spend time on their own research. It was mentioned in 
Book 1 that Dumbledore has researched alchemy and also discovered the 
twelve uses of dragon's blood.
Incidentally, I haven't ever seen any evidence of any education in 
music or art at Hogwarts--nothing like a band or an orchestra. 
Dumbledore apparently likes chamber music; you would think he would 
encourage music learning at his own school :). There are probably all 
sorts of interesting possibilities in the arts opened up by magic. 
Architects could completely disregard worries about structural 
stability; one simple charm and you could have any kind of crazy 
building stand up. A person could play violin and viola at 
once--though even magic might not allow you to split your 
concentration between the two; you might have to just have one of the 
instruments playing "on automatic" like a music box, which wouldn't 
really be music. 

Not much of a thread, but can anyone think of some other things 
Hogwarts might be lacking in? Right now its a bit of a one-dimensional 
school--there's no philosophy or literature-- I suppose magic takes 
the place of science classes, and Hermione is taking Arithmancy, so I 
guess there's some version of math in the magical world? Of course, I 
suppose you might say equally that Muggle schools are limited in scope 
for failing to teach magic. But might some wizards go on to study at 
Muggle universities, maybe to take a music or architecture major? Some 
aspects of Muggle learning at least seem entirely compatible with 
magical learning; one would enhance and inform the other. Others, of 
course, seem mutually exclusive, such as most of Muggle science and 
much of what Harry is learning about making things pop out of thin air 
and levitate :). I wonder if there is much if any overlap between the 
Muggle world and the wizarding world. 

Any thoughts on this?

Alexandra




From atelecky at mit.edu  Wed Nov 29 07:52:47 2000
From: atelecky at mit.edu (atelecky at mit.edu)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 07:52:47 -0000
Subject: Sirius' "joke" on Snape
Message-ID: <902ckf+kcg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6182

In PoA, Lupin describes how Sirius thought it would be "funny" to 
tell Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow, so that Snape 
would find himself confronting a full-grown werewolf if he tried 
to spy on the "Marauders" again. Does the idea that Sirius played a 
"joke" on Snape that would almost certainly have led to his death if 
James had not intervened really disturb anyone else with regards to 
Sirius' character? Might there have been some better reason than 
Sirius' simple dislike for Snape, some specifc event, that would have 
led Sirius to go that far? We have not, after all, been given many 
specifics of the relationship between Snape and the Marauders; other 
than the fact that Sirius considered him a slimy little worm, we are 
given no real reason (though there is really no reason good enough) 
for Sirius to have wanted to actually put Snape's life in serious 
danger.

Any ideas? 
Alexandra




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Wed Nov 29 13:52:24 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:52:24 -0000
Subject: Hagrids House (Hut)
In-Reply-To: <8vvb6m+soci@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9031mo+otig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6183

Steve Wrote:
> I don't think it's right. For one thing, it doesn't look to me like 
> it's made of wood, and Hagrid's hut is definitely made of wood. 

Picture Ref:
http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Movie+Settings/hagridshut.j
pg

I quite agree.  From the picture it looks like it's made from stone.  
How can Norbert burn stone... the whole point is that it's dangerous 
for Hagrid to look after a Dragon in a Wooden Hut.

>It looks interestingly magical or at least fairy-tale-ish.

Yes... out of Noddy from Toyland in my opinion... perfect for Big 
Ears house!

Nick




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov 29 14:00:29 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:00:29 -0000
Subject: That's Liberation! (song)
Message-ID: <90325t+5hcc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6184


That's Liberation!

(to the tune of That's Entertainment!)

(Enter Harry Potter (HP), Hermione Granger (HG), Ron Weasley (RW), 
Dobby and Winky)

DOBBY &  HG: When an elf wants to earn his own pelf
HP & RW: Wins his socks from the school of hard knocks
HP, HG & DOBBY: And with glee, becomes totally free
ALL: That's liberation!

WINKY & RW: When an elf who thinks not of herself
HG & HP: Offends Crouch, who's a bit of a grouch, 
WINKY & DOBBY: And with a sob, learns she's out of a job
ALL: That's dislocation!

DOBBY: I wants to be paid at a livable wage
HG & RW: That very idea puts most folks in a rage
DOBBY: So I says, "See Dumbledore, he's the great Hogwarts sage
We'll find work in his kitchen 
And mayhap she'll stop her......
HG, HP, RW: ....griping.

HG: Eleves aren't free ? you all know that not news
HP &  RW: That's inspired her creation of SPEW
WINKY: Freedom means that you've nothin' to lose
ALL: When they cast clothes away
It will bring on a day
Of celebration!

	- CMC





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Nov 29 15:49:23 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:49:23 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter on the Radio
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEOOCMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6185

This is aimed at all of those that live in the UK. Harry Potter and the
Philosopher's Stone (Stephen Fry version) will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4
it entirety on Boxing Day.

More information at BBC news online. Link below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779.stm

Simon (who is going to try to back to sleep now!)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Nov 29 15:52:44 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:52:44 -0000
Subject: from today's reuters (book 5, plus boxing day in the UK)
Message-ID: <9038oc+q701@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6186


LONDON (Reuters) - Good news for Harry Potter fans. J.K. Rowling has 
started writing Book Five about the weird and wonderful world of the 
teenage wizard. 
The article also says that "Pottermania has gripped *children* around 
the globe" (emphasis mine)

Children? Yeah, I think they're into the stories. But what about us 
GROWNUPS?

It goes on to say that BBC radio will feature an eight-hour reading 
of ``Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'' on December 26.

"Comedian Stephen Fry is to read the book which will dominate the 
airwaves on Boxing Day on Radio Four."

Stephen Fry did the books on tape of the UK version - will he be 
doing this live or will they just be airing 8 hours of the book on 
tape?
And how can we listen to this outside the UK?

You can see the rest of it at 
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001129/re/people_potter_dc_2.html 
or at http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2740-2000Nov29.html




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Nov 29 16:05:10 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:05:10 -0000
Subject: HP on Boxing Day
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEPACMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6187

Heidi wrote: "It goes on to say that BBC radio will feature an eight-hour
reading of ``Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'' on December 26.

"Comedian Stephen Fry is to read the book which will dominate the airwaves
on Boxing Day on Radio Four."

Stephen Fry did the books on tape of the UK version - will he be doing this
live or will they just be airing 8 hours of the book on tape?

And how can we listen to this outside the UK?"

Radio 4 broadcast some of their programs on the net, but I am guessing that
this will not be one of those programs. I guess they have got the rights to
broadcast the UK version of the book to the UK. I would be very surprised if
the rights in any way extended to broadcasting the books to the world in
general (as would be the cast if they did it over the internet as well).

Also Radio 4 has two frequencies (one on FM and one on long wave). The one
on FM is being used for the story, while the long wave is being used for
their regular schedule. So I guess they will be broadcasting their normal
service over the Internet.

I would also be pretty sure that it would be broadcast off one of the
recordings. This seems to be confirmed on the BBC's news online website
article
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779.stm).

Simon




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Nov 29 16:24:27 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:24:27 -0000
Subject: Parseltongue question
In-Reply-To: <3A249789.77D5166D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <903ajr+hi7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6188


> Has anyone (but me) wondered why Harry didn't try to *talk* to the
> basilisk in the Chamber? 

Excellent observation. There are a couple of times in the books where 
Harry seems to ignore the obvious solution. Another great example is 
when he's stuck in the trick stair, under his invisibility cloak, 
when the egg is screeching and he drops the Marauder's Map. There is 
lays almost within his grasp, and he never thinks to use a Summoning 
Charm to retrieve it. 

I think it's the same thing: he's a kid, facing unimaginable danger 
or major stress, and he just doesn't think it all through. It would 
actually be LESS realistic if he always had the right spell on the 
tip of his tongue, sort of like the way James Bond always has the 
perfect gadget at the right moment. Harry isn't a superhero. He's a 
kid, who manages to survive and even win while making mistakes and 
floundering around, just like any kid (or grownup, for that matter). 

What sets Harry apart is his sense of purpose and mission in his 
life. He hasn't really come to terms with it yet, but it's clear that 
he subconciously sees himself as something Special. I don't mean that 
in a bad way at all. Harry senses that it's up to him, that he just 
doesn't have a choice but to place himself in the path of danger. 
It's his destiny, and he knows it intuitively. Everything DOES seem 
to happen to him. That's the way things are, and he knows it.

But he doens't have all the answers yet. He's still a kid, in 
training. A trained wizard is not just one who knows all the right 
spells, but one who remembers the right spell to use at the right 
time. In all his adventures, he's really been helped along to victory 
almost every time. He didn't think of the ways to defeat the dragon 
or swim the lake. He wouldn't have been able to defeat Voldemort in 
the duel except for the fact that his wand was a mate of Voldemort's. 
There is destiny there, true, so it's not just blind luck, but it 
certainly isn't anything Harry personally did or decided. 


Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 16:44:33 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Roger)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Radio
Message-ID: <20001129164433.9446.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6189

Tape/Email/Post/File?  Please please please please
please??????





--- Simon <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> This is aimed at all of those that live in the UK.
> Harry Potter and the
> Philosopher's Stone (Stephen Fry version) will be
> broadcast on BBC Radio 4
> it entirety on Boxing Day.
> 
> More information at BBC news online. Link below.
> 
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779.stm
> 
> Simon (who is going to try to back to sleep now!)
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 


=====
:)

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Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 17:09:38 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:09:38 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' "joke" on Snape
Message-ID: <51.423948a.27569252@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6190

We now know that Snape was a Death Eater.  I think it was stated that he knew 
more about dark magic than any other student when he was at Hogwarts.  I'd 
venture to guess that he was dabbling in dark magic at school and that the 
Marauders knew about it.  I would never say that it was OK for Sirius to pull 
this on Snape, but we don't know what Snape may have done to any of the 
Marauders or any of the other students at Hogwarts at that time.  If he 
(Sirius) knew that James would intervene then maybe he was just trying to 
teach Snape a lesson -scare him a bit.  A sort of "I know what you've been up 
to so don't mess with us or else..."  It could very well have been a taste of 
his own medicine.

-Mo



From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 17:32:08 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (Maureen L)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:32:08 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <903eio+3h1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6191

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> So, my thought is that it's where the students really want to be 
that 
> ultimately determines their house placement.
> 
> What do others think?
> 
> Susan
> 
> (whose 3 year old son says every other day..I put you in prison! I 
> taking you to Azkeban!)

I have to agree.  The Sorting Hat "sees" what in the wearer what they 
themselves might not necessarily see in themselves or think that they 
lack -but are wishing that they had.  It's all about the choices that 
Dumbledore talks about.  I was also thinking that maybe it somehow can 
see what is to come.  I was thinking about Wormtail for instance.  
Perhaps he will surprise everyone and do something brave - after all 
he does owe a life-debt to Harry.

-Mo

"And so shines a good deed in a weary world."  -Willy Wonka
"




From mdartagnan at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 17:35:45 2000
From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (Marijose D?az)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:35:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sirius' "joke" on Snape
Message-ID: <20001129173545.17632.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6192

Hi there!

First of all, Ive been on this group only for a
couple of weeks. My name is Marijose and Im from
Mexico. BTW, if you find any grammatical mistake or
notice that I have a different name for any magical
object or spell, I ask for an apology beforehand. My
native language is Spanish and I read the first three
books in that language. ^^

And now, about the question...
Well, weve only have mere hints about the
relationship of the Marauders with Snape, and they are
dispersed along the four books. We know that Snape
hated James for being really good at Quidditch,
bending the rules, etc.  Then, by the conversation
held on Hogsmeade between McGonagall, Hagrid and Filch
(I think), it seems that the relationship between
James and Snape was similar to the one that exists
between Harry and Malfoy. 

Sirius, IMO, was the most reckless of the Marauders.
Also, he was James' best friend. Imagine that Snape
behaved to James just like Malfoy behaves to Harry. I
can picture Ron not only disliking Malfoy, but maybe
even hating him. It is logical that maybe Sirius also
disliked, even hated, Snape, but unlike Ron, he wanted
to "prank" him first instead of waiting for his next
"attack". 

Remember that James and Sirius chose in which animals
they would change considering that they might need to
control Lupin any time. Maybe Sirius thought that, if
things went out of control, both James and he could
stop Lupin and rescue Snape... if he ever thought
things could go out of hand.

That playing that "joke" on Snape was careless and
stupid is something I won't question. But also,
remember what Lupin said. They were young, they were
foolish, hey, they even visited Hogsmeade by night in
spite of the risk Lupin might pose for someone else.
When you're young, you make many mistakes, and when it
has something to do with your best friends, believe
me, you become a bit blinded -experience talking. ^^U

Any thoughts? 

Misbehave,
Marijose




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Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 17:37:41 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:37:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Radio
Message-ID: <20001129173741.28645.qmail@web207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6193

I'll add my desperate pleas to those already posted!!
I'd be happy to supply tapes if someone could tape it
for me.

Sheryll
--- Denise Roger <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tape/Email/Post/File?  Please please please please
> please??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Simon <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> > This is aimed at all of those that live in the UK.
> > Harry Potter and the
> > Philosopher's Stone (Stephen Fry version) will be
> > broadcast on BBC Radio 4
> > it entirety on Boxing Day.
> > 
> > More information at BBC news online. Link below.
> > 
> >
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779.stm
> > 
> > Simon (who is going to try to back to sleep now!)
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> =====
> :)
> 
> __________________________________________________
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__________________________________________________
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From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 17:44:20 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:44:20 -0000
Subject: A Hogwarts education, was "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch (long)
In-Reply-To: <902bit+vehf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <903f9k+6vl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6194

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, atelecky at m... wrote:

> Incidentally, I haven't ever seen any evidence of any education in 
> music or art at Hogwarts--nothing like a band or an orchestra. 
> Dumbledore apparently likes chamber music; you would think he would 
> encourage music learning at his own school [snip] 
> Not much of a thread, but can anyone think of some other things 
> Hogwarts might be lacking in? Right now its a bit of a one-
dimensional 
> school--there's no philosophy or literature-- I suppose magic takes 
> the place of science classes, and Hermione is taking Arithmancy, so 
I 
> guess there's some version of math in the magical world? 

JKR has said that some of the traditional muggle subjects are studied 
in the elective Muggles Studies classes, and the students certainly 
do a lot of writing in all their classes.  But it is true that the 
way Hogwarts is structured that the students do seem to be missing 
out on a lot of subjects that would be useful in both the magical and 
muggle worlds.  In particular, I have wondered about the lack of 
music, and also sports other than the official House quidditch 
teams.  And shouldnt students like Dean Thomas, who are good at 
drawing, get some opportunity to get more artistic training?  Oh 
well, we cant expect JKR to think of everything!

--Joywitch




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Nov 29 17:02:33 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:02:33 -0700
Subject: Sirius "joke" on Snape
Message-ID: <3A253602.C3779047@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6195

In PoA, Lupin describes how Sirius thought it would be "funny" to 
                 tell Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow, so that
Snape 
                 would find himself confronting a full-grown werewolf if
he tried 
                 to spy on the "Marauders" again. Does the idea that
Sirius played a 
                 "joke" on Snape that would almost certainly have led to
his death if 
                 James had not intervened really disturb anyone else
with regards to 
                 Sirius' character? Might there have been some better
reason than 
                 Sirius' simple dislike for Snape, some specifc event,
that would have 
                 led Sirius to go that far? We have not, after all, been
given many 
                 specifics of the relationship between Snape and the
Marauders; other 
                 than the fact that Sirius considered him a slimy little
worm, we are 
                 given no real reason (though there is really no reason
good enough) 
                 for Sirius to have wanted to actually put Snape's life
in serious 
                 danger.

                 Any ideas? 
                 Alexandra 
	>>Does the idea that Sirius played a 
  "joke" on Snape that would almost certainly have led to his death if 
  James had not intervened really disturb anyone else with regards to 
  Sirius' character?<<

     Well, Sirius *is* a disturbing character. He knifes the fat lady,
he slashes Ron's curtains, he breaks Ron's leg in the process of
abducting him, and he's ready to visit vigilante justice on Pettigrew.
IMO, he has a tendency to act on instinct and attempt to rationalize his
behavior afterward.

>>Might there have been some better reason than 
 Sirius' simple dislike for Snape, some specifc event, that would have 
led Sirius to go that far<<

	There has been lots of speculation on this list as to the underlying
reasons for the antagonism between the Marauders and Snape, some
involving sexual jealousy. I think all the Jerry Springer scenarios,
while fun to contemplate, miss the point.
 	Sirius was sixteen years old and death at that age  is a  meaningless
abstraction, whereas the consequences of being discovered out of bounds,
illegally transformed and in the company of a werewolf would seem to him
much more drastic and immediate. As in, Omigod they'll tell our PARENTS,
we'll get kicked out of school, they'll snap our wands, they'll SEPARATE
us. 
	 Snape's spying would have put pressure on the Marauders' relationship
with each other. Perhaps Sirius began to fear that one of them would
want to back out, or crack and confess everything to Dumbledore, even if
Snape didn't manage to find them out. 
	I like the idea that Snape had/has secrets of his own. Wouldn't Snape
have guessed Remus's secret as easily as Hermione did? Did he actually 
suspect what would be waiting for him at the end of the tunnel and have
a plan for dealing with it, a plan that James's heroic intervention spoiled?
Pippin



From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Nov 29 18:36:57 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:36:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanksgiving and "102 Dalmations"
References: <8vsk1m+3aop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A254CC9.6116C06D@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6196



Scott wrote:

>  Secondly how about the
> dog guy (what's his name!!) for Sirius (On second thought he's
> probably not handsome enough as no one in the theatre swooned...)

Ioan Gruffudd is his name.  Welsh and very handsome.
They did in the theatre I was in.  He was a very bright spot in an
otherwise
dismal film.  But I had the very same thought--he would make a delicious
Sirius.

drpam



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov 29 18:51:05 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:51:05 -0000
Subject: A Hogwarts education, was "Mad-Eye Moody" - Character Sketch (long)
In-Reply-To: <903f9k+6vl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <903j6p+hcq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6197

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, atelecky at m... wrote:
> 
> > Incidentally, I haven't ever seen any evidence of any education in 
> > music or art at Hogwarts--nothing like a band or an orchestra. 
> > Dumbledore apparently likes chamber music; you would think he 
would 
> > encourage music learning at his own school [snip] 
> > Not much of a thread, but can anyone think of some other things 
> > Hogwarts might be lacking in? Right now its a bit of a one-
> dimensional 
> > school--there's no philosophy or literature-- I suppose magic 
takes 
> > the place of science classes, and Hermione is taking Arithmancy, 
so 
> I 
> > guess there's some version of math in the magical world? 
> 
> JKR has said that some of the traditional muggle subjects are 
studied 
> in the elective Muggles Studies classes, and the students certainly 
> do a lot of writing in all their classes.  But it is true that the 
> way Hogwarts is structured that the students do seem to be missing 
> out on a lot of subjects that would be useful in both the magical 
and 
> muggle worlds.  In particular, I have wondered about the lack of 
> music, and also sports other than the official House quidditch 
> teams.  And shouldnt students like Dean Thomas, who are good at 
> drawing, get some opportunity to get more artistic training?  Oh 
> well, we cant expect JKR to think of everything!
> 
> --Joywitch

I've wondered if they take courses such as mathematics at Hogwarts. 
Harry came from a muggle school and had the equivalent of an American 
6th grade education. It would be strange if his mathematics, 
geography, etc. would stop at that point.

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov 29 18:59:03 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:59:03 -0000
Subject: Sirius' "joke" on Snape
In-Reply-To: <902ckf+kcg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <903jln+c88f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6198

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, atelecky at m... wrote:
> In PoA, Lupin describes how Sirius thought it would be "funny" to 
> tell Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow, so that Snape 
> would find himself confronting a full-grown werewolf if he tried 
> to spy on the "Marauders" again. Does the idea that Sirius played a 
> "joke" on Snape that would almost certainly have led to his death if 
> James had not intervened really disturb anyone else with regards to 
> Sirius' character? Might there have been some better reason than 
> Sirius' simple dislike for Snape, some specifc event, that would 
have 
> led Sirius to go that far? We have not, after all, been given many 
> specifics of the relationship between Snape and the Marauders; other 
> than the fact that Sirius considered him a slimy little worm, we are 
> given no real reason (though there is really no reason good enough) 
> for Sirius to have wanted to actually put Snape's life in serious 
> danger.
> 
> Any ideas? 
> Alexandra

Sirius was a teenager at the time of the joke. I truly doubt that 
Sirius knew the full consequence to that joke. Kids "dare" each other 
to do some pretty dangerous stuff (from an adult point of view), 
without ever seriously considering the potential danger.

About the relationship between the Marauders and Snape, it seems as 
though they were never on friendly terms. But whatever the case, can 
you just imagine the Snape's frustration that he knew Lupin's secret 
but was forbidden to reveal it to anyone?

:-) Milz




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Nov 29 18:58:11 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:58:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Hogwarts education, was "Mad-Eye Moody" -  Character Sketch (long)
References: <903f9k+6vl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A2551C3.57F259AF@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6199



Joywitch wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, atelecky at m... wrote:
>
> > Incidentally, I haven't ever seen any evidence of any education in
> > music or art at Hogwarts--nothing like a band or an orchestra.
> > Dumbledore apparently likes chamber music; you would think he would
> > encourage music learning at his own school [snip]
> > Not much of a thread, but can anyone think of some other things
> > Hogwarts might be lacking in? Right now its a bit of a one-
> dimensional
> > school--there's no philosophy or literature-- I suppose magic takes
> > the place of science classes, and Hermione is taking Arithmancy, so
> I
> > guess there's some version of math in the magical world?
>
> JKR has said that some of the traditional muggle subjects are studied
> in the elective Muggles Studies classes, and the students certainly
> do a lot of writing in all their classes.  But it is true that the
> way Hogwarts is structured that the students do seem to be missing
> out on a lot of subjects that would be useful in both the magical and
> muggle worlds.  In particular, I have wondered about the lack of
> music, and also sports other than the official House quidditch
> teams.  And shouldnt students like Dean Thomas, who are good at
> drawing, get some opportunity to get more artistic training?

I've been thinking that Hogwarts really seems to best fit the model of a
technical school (or specialty school) or even a graduate school, rather
than a traditional secondary school.  You know, a program in which the focus
is on developing or honing or training for a special skill--in this case
magic.   But this makes me wonder even more about the primary education
system in the wizard world; the curriculae must be staggering.  We know that
students at Hogwarts are required to do a great deal of writing and to tacke
some pretty hefty mathematics in classes like Astronomy and Divinations.  I
seriously doubt that I would have been up to such challenges at 11, 12 or 13
years old.

Perhaps subjects like mathematics and grammar and so forth are integrated
into the curriculum.  Like the first few terms of Astronomy are spent
learning the necessary calculation skills...

I hate to think that one day Harry might meet his downfall in Harry Potter
and the Difficult Geometric Proof or the Undiagramable Sentence.

drpam




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Nov 29 19:07:03 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:07:03 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <903k4n+7uje@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6200

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Well, I was listening to GoF on tape today, and I had a thought
> about sorting.
> 
> We all have wondered why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw because of her
> focus on scholarship and knowledge (You're the cleverest witch of 
> your age I've ever met..said Lupin). 
> 
> Chamber of Secrets
> "So I SHOULD be in Slytherin." Harry said looking desperately into
> Dumbledore's face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin's Power in 
me 
> and it-----"
> 
> "Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, 
> Harry.... "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Fryffindor. You know 
why 
> that was. Think."
> 
> "It only put me in Gryffindor" said Harry in a defeated 
> voice. "because I asked not to go in Slytherin..."
> 
> "Exactly" said Dumbledore beaming once more "Which makes you very 
> different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what 
> we truly are, far more than our abilities."
> 
> I think we have all assumed that the sorting hat placed students 
into 
> houses based on their abilities. I would suggest that it places the
> students in part based on their abilities, in part based on their 
> characters, but that the final decision is based on what they truly 
> want. We have been confused because Hermione -- obviously an 
> outstanding student who is bright, is focused and works hard -- is 
> not in Ravenclaw. Well, deep down, Hermione values being brave, 
> daring and chivalrous over being smart -- hence she is in 
Gryffindor.
> 
> There is a big difference between people who want to be scholars and 
> those who wish to be warriors.
> 
> Let's look at Cedric Diggory. At the end of GoF, he turns his back 
on 
> the type of glory that Hufflepuff has not seen for...how many years 
> (when we think about how Harry's choice to share the glory with 
> Cedric ended in Cedric's death, we must also remember that it was
> Cedric's choice as well). Cedric looks pale, yet resolute. When I 
> read that the first time....I remembered..you might belong in 
> Hufflepuff where they are just and loyal......The hardworking 
> citizens belong in Hufflepuff....
> 
> So, my thought is that it's where the students really want to be 
that 
> ultimately determines their house placement.
> 
> What do others think?
> 
> Susan
> 
> (whose 3 year old son says every other day..I put you in prison! I 
> taking you to Azkeban!)

I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired and 
not inherent. In other words, she isn't "naturally bright". She is 
constantly studying, constantly memorizing. What if Hermione stopped 
studying as hard for once? Will her grades resemble those of the other 
Gryffindors or will they stay constant? Or maybe Hermione studies so 
much because she's a little miffed she wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw 
and is trying to prove the Sorting Hat wrong? 

Until we get a glimpse on the study habits of the average Ravenclaw, 
we can't really answer those questions, imo. And since the Gryffindors 
don't seem to have classes with the Ravenclaws, that might be 
impossible.

:-)Milz




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Nov 29 19:31:33 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:31:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
References: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A255995.ACCB067D@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6201



Susan McGee wrote:
(some text portions have been snipped)

> We all have wondered why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw because of her
> focus on scholarship and knowledge (You're the cleverest witch of
> your age I've ever met..said Lupin).
>
> I think we have all assumed that the sorting hat placed students into
> houses based on their abilities. I would suggest that it places the
> students in part based on their abilities, in part based on their
> characters, but that the final decision is based on what they truly
> want. We have been confused because Hermione -- obviously an
> outstanding student who is bright, is focused and works hard -- is
> not in Ravenclaw. Well, deep down, Hermione values being brave,
> daring and chivalrous over being smart -- hence she is in Gryffindor.
>
> So, my thought is that it's where the students really want to be that
> ultimately determines their house placement.
>
> What do others think?
>

I think this is a brilliant post.  I think you've hit the crux of the
matter.  When I read Dumbledore speech about choices, I think he also means
the kind of choice that go into make up our identity, our sense of self.  So
that it's not just where the students want to go, but what kind of person
they see themselves as being--how they choose to be.  For Harry, the very
idea of being in Slytherin was a "not me" experience; it did not fit with
his self-image, with what he values in himself as a person.   As well as for
Cedric, he's clearly handsome, smart and very brave--and has qualities which
would make him fit well in Gryffindor.  But what Cedric values in himself is
his sense of fairplay (think of that marvelous bit in PoA when he tries to
have the result of the Quidditch match voided because of Harry's experience
with the Dementors) and hence he belongs in Hufflepuff, because that's who
he is fundamentally.


milz wrote:

> I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired and
> not inherent. In other words, she isn't "naturally bright". She is
> constantly studying, constantly memorizing. What if Hermione stopped
> studying as hard for once? Will her grades resemble those of the other
> Gryffindors or will they stay constant? Or maybe Hermione studies so
> much because she's a little miffed she wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw
> and is trying to prove the Sorting Hat wrong?
>
> Until we get a glimpse on the study habits of the average Ravenclaw,
> we can't really answer those questions, imo. And since the Gryffindors
> don't seem to have classes with the Ravenclaws, that might be
> impossible.
>

Oh, dear.  I think you sell Hermione short here.  It would take a prodigious
amount of work to exhibit the kind of scholarship that Hermione does without
having some natural smarts.  Besides, that kind of work ethic would put her
in Hufflepuff.  I think Hermione is very bright and that she has a great
love of learning.  But she's not just book smart, she often uses her
knowledge in the service of others, to help them, to right wrongs or fight
injustice.  And these are the aspects that she values in herself and how she
sees herself, so this is why she is in Gryffindor.

Thank you Susan for a thought-provoking post.

drpam




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 21:08:15 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:08:15 -0000
Subject: last chance to get Muggles for Harry Potter buttons
Message-ID: <903r7v+71nc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6202

This arrived in my emailbox today. -- Joywitch

Volume 1, Number 10				November 29, 2000

		   MUGGLES FOR HARRY POTTER UPDATE

SALE OF MUGGLES FOR HARRY POTTER BUTTONS ENDS TOMORROW

	This is a final reminder that the sale of Muggles for Harry
Potter buttons will end tomorrow as we prepare to make the transition
from Muggles for Harry Potter to Kidspeak.

	 To order online, go to http://www.abffe.com.  This is the Web
site of the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression, one 
of
the sponsors of Muggles for Harry Potter.  Click on the "ABFFE Store"
button at the top of the page.  Then, click on "Muggles for Harry 
Potter"
link. You may also send a check made payable to "ABFFE."  The address 
is
ABFFE, 139 Fulton St., Suite 302, New York, NY 10038.  Individual
buttons are $3.50 each, including shipping and handling.  Bags of 100
may be ordered for $40, plus shipping and handling.  (ABFFE members 
may
order bags for $30 each.)
    

ABFFE STILL OFFERING MUGGLES FOR HARRY POTTER T-SHIRT TO NEW MEMBERS

	ABFFE has signed up 50 new members since it began offering its
Muggles for Harry Potter T-shirts as a membership bonus.  Another 50
shirts are available. (Adult Large and X-Large only).

	In addition to the shirt, new ABFFE members receive a free 
2001
Banned Books Week Kit (a $35 value); a subscription to ABFFE Update, 
the
monthly ABFFE newsletter; the ABFFE handbook, "Censorship and First
Amendment Rights"; ABFFE's pamphlets on special free speech problems
like obscenity and hate speech; and the handsome ABFFE membership pin.

        ABFFE membership is $35 for individuals.        
          
        You can join ABFFE online using the ABFFE Store, 
www.abffe.com.
(If you join online, send an e-mail to tim at abffe.com telling us what
size shirt you want.)  You may also join by calling (212) 587-4025 or
sending a check to ABFFE, 139 Fulton St., Suite 302, New York, NY 
10038.





From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Nov 29 21:47:52 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:47:52 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How long does it take
References: <20001127115314.9319.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01c05a4e$088ed060$fc8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 6203


----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Stub <rhodhry at yahoo.no>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 11:53 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How long does it take


> How much time does the Hogwarts express need to get from London to
> Hogsmeade?  I presume a speed of 55mph is appropriate for a
> steam-powered express-train.

Well, it leaves at eleven (or thereabouts), and appears to arrive around
seven-ish (early evening at any rate).  I'd say around eight hours, after
all, London to the wilds of Scotland is a fair old distance.

Jinx




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Wed Nov 29 21:47:32 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 29 Nov 2000 21:47:32 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <975534452.11316@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6204


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Cast Photos/ Members' Suggestions/Ioan Gruffudd.gif 
  Uploaded by : harry_potter00 at yahoo.com 
  Description : Sirius?  The picture is from the new 102 Dalmations film.... 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Cast+Photos/+Members%27+Suggestions/Ioan+Gruffudd%2Egif 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

harry_potter00 at yahoo.com
 






From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Nov 29 21:52:58 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:52:58 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic in South-Africa
References: <20001127115712.10889.qmail@web1305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c05a4e$bf86b800$fc8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 6205


----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Stub <rhodhry at yahoo.no>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 11:57 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic in South-Africa


> Where do South-African students go to school?  Do they all go to the
> same school; was there a new school for all South-Africa started to
> heal the wounds from the apartheid; was there apartheid in
> South-African wizarding society?  If there is a common school for all
> South-Africans now, could one expect some white wizarding-families to
> ship their children North to Durmstrang or Hogwarts to get them to a
> 'proper' school?  Are there South-Africans on this list who have given
> thought to this?

I suspect there may have been some kind of apartheid.  But on the other
hand, black wizards wouldn't have been affected by it in anything like the
same way because they could use magic to fight back.  I suspect black
wizards have their own school which teaches traditional African magic.
South African whites may also have their own school, although a fair few may
also attend European, American or Aussie schools.

Jinx




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Nov 29 21:47:22 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:47:22 -0600
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
References: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A25796A.E18030B6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6206

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> We all have wondered why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw because of her
> focus on scholarship and knowledge (You're the cleverest witch of
> your age I've ever met..said Lupin).
>
> <snip>
>
> I think we have all assumed that the sorting hat placed students into
> houses based on their abilities. I would suggest that it places the
> students in part based on their abilities, in part based on their
> characters, but that the final decision is based on what they truly
> want. We have been confused because Hermione -- obviously an
> outstanding student who is bright, is focused and works hard -- is
> not in Ravenclaw. Well, deep down, Hermione values being brave,
> daring and chivalrous over being smart -- hence she is in Gryffindor.
>

I'll agree with Pam that I think it's very much their choices &
self-identity that largely determines their House at Hogwarts.  Hermione
wanted very much to be in Gryffindor -- she said so on the Hogwarts
Express.  And, she seemed elated that she'd been sorted into Gryffindor
-- running to the Gryffindor table.  I think she values bravery &
chivalry like Susan says and/or I think it's possible that the Sorting
Hat sensed that about her.  In other words, it might not always be as it
was with Harry thinking out loud "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin."
Hermione might not have been *asking* for Gryffindor, but it's certainly
possible that the Sorting Hat spotted that her intellect was not the
primary driving force behind her identity, despite outward appearances
to the contrary.

milz wrote:

> I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired and
> not inherent. In other words, she isn't "naturally bright". She is
> constantly studying, constantly memorizing. What if Hermione stopped
> studying as hard for once? Will her grades resemble those of the other
> Gryffindors or will they stay constant?
>
Like Pam, I think you're selling Hermione short (there's a surprise -
Penny leaping to the defense of Hermione!).  I just don't think that she
could study hard enough to do everything that she does without some
natural intellectual ability -- in fact, I think she has considerably
more than average intellectual ability.  For one thing, alot of the
subjects at Hogwarts require more than just "book-learning" when it
comes time for exams.  Knowing the theory behind summoning charms isn't
going to help one bit if you can't put it into application.  DADA is
almost entirely practical application it would seem.  Potions is
probably alot like chemistry I suppose ... memory work might come more
in handy there and in History of Magic.  But, it seems as though the
majority of their subjects involve anywhere from a fair bit to extensive
practical application that can't be solved by book-learning alone.
These aren't subjects like English literature, history, psychology,
classics, etc. where rote memorization & spitting back the right answers
on a written test is going to allow an average student to excel
academically.

She's also demonstrated the ability to think on her feet & extract
herself & Harry & Ron from predicaments on several occasions.  She
didn't *always* have time to run to the library.  I'm thinking in
particular of the logic required to solve the potions obstacle in SS.
In my experience, people who are logical analytical thinkers are
oftentimes exceedingly bright individuals.

I think she demonstrates the practical application of her knowledge
outside the classroom quite often -- often enough to refute any charges
that she simply studies & practices until she gets it right so she can
show off in class the next day.  That would also imply sort of a
short-term memory skill, and Hermione definitely seems to retain her
knowledge.  Moody (okay, Crouch-as-Moody) also seems to think she has
the right sort of logical thinking and other skills to make her good
Auror material.

Plus, if she's doing as much running around & hanging out with the boys
as it seems, she probably doesn't have time to study as much as if she
were still friendless.  <g>

> Or maybe Hermione studies so much because she's a little miffed she wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw
> and is trying to prove the Sorting Hat wrong?
>
She wanted to be in Gryffindor though.  She said so on the Hogwarts
Express.

> Until we get a glimpse on the study habits of the average Ravenclaw,
> we can't really answer those questions, imo. And since the Gryffindors
> don't seem to have classes with the Ravenclaws, that might be
> impossible.
>
Well, we know that Hermione was top of her year in 1st & 2nd years for
sure so.... I guess she's done better than all the Ravenclaws in any
case.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Nov 29 22:00:46 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:00:46 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEHPCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <00d701c05a4f$e1facc40$fc8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 6207


----- Original Message -----
From: Sister Mary Lunatic <klaatu at primenet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 1:03 AM
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation


> On the subject of transportation, it's odd that we never read about any of
> the adults traveling by broomstick.  It seems that the only thing adults
use
> brooms for is to play Quidditch.

Yeah, I'd noticed that.  I have this theory on magical transport and how it
compares to Muggle transport.

Brooms = bikes.  Used by kids to get anywhere as is their only personal form
of transport other than walking.  Not generally used for long journeys
because of the effort involved.  Adults use them mainly for recreational
purposes as they have more efficient modes of transport available for when
they want to travel.

Floo powder = public transport.  Somewhat lower-class.  Also you need to
leave and arrive at specific points (fireplaces on the Floo network/bus
stops and train stations) so it's not too flexible.  Possibility of missing
your stop.  Used primarily for journeys on the beaten track and by those who
can't drive/Apparate.  Kids use it to make journeys that would be
impracticable for a broom.

Apparition = cars.  Main form of transport for adults.  Minimum age
requirements and a test needed before you can use it.  Can take you
virtually anywhere.  Kids can't use it though, which is a major source of
irritation to them as they get older.

Can't think of one for Portkeys yet, but I'm sure someone will.  :)

Jinx




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 22:07:46 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:07:46 -0000
Subject: Authur Weasely and...
Message-ID: <903uni+jatd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6208

 Authur Weasely and Authur Wellesley (The Duke of Wellington).  Is it 
just me or do these names sound strangely alike???  

This just sort of came to me and I thought I'd mention it...besides 
the fact that he led British forces in the battle of Waterloo and 
defeated Napoleon,(Authur leading the good guys to destroy 
Voldemort??) I can't really think of a connection...can you?

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 29 22:25:48 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:25:48 -0000
Subject: Wizard Schools and Transportation
In-Reply-To: <00d701c05a4f$e1facc40$fc8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <903vpc+1g2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6209


> 
> Floo powder = public transport.  Somewhat lower-class.  Also you 
need to
> leave and arrive at specific points (fireplaces on the Floo 
network/bus
> stops and train stations) so it's not too flexible.  Possibility of 
missing
> your stop.  Used primarily for journeys on the beaten track and by 
those who
> can't drive/Apparate.  Kids use it to make journeys that would be
> impracticable for a broom.

Yeah that was my point about Floo powder. Glad someone agrees.
> 
> Apparition = cars.  Main form of transport for adults.  Minimum age
> requirements and a test needed before you can use it.  Can take you
> virtually anywhere.  Kids can't use it though, which is a major 
source of
> irritation to them as they get older.

BTW,(and OT) what is the min. driving age in the UK? Maybe this too 
is the apparting age, (what IS the apparating age?)
> 
> Can't think of one for Portkeys yet, but I'm sure someone will.  :)
> 
Portkeys: Aeroplanes? They have a certain time and place that they 
are activated and they are quick...

Scott




From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Nov 29 22:42:08 2000
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:42:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation
Message-ID: <20001129224208.17185.qmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6210

[Great definitions snipped]
> Can't think of one for Portkeys yet, but I'm sure someone will.  :)
> 
> Jinx

Portkey = Taxi.  It gives the same benefit as apparation, except it has
to be arranged beforehand, as far as I can tell.


=====
"There are two trillion six-houndred and sixtyfive billion  eight-houndred and sixtysix million, seven-houndred and fortysix thousand, six-houndred and sixtyfour litte devils in the world"
---------------------------------------------
Christian Stub
Student of Technology, architectura navalis

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Del dine bilder med andre p http://no.photos.yahoo.com



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Nov 29 22:57:39 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:57:39 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Schools and Transportation
References: <903vpc+1g2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c05a57$ca25bfa0$fc8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 6211


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Scott <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:25 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Schools and Transportation


> BTW,(and OT) what is the min. driving age in the UK? Maybe this too 
> is the apparting age, (what IS the apparating age?)

Seventeen, same as the Apparating age.  Another connection...

Jinx




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Nov 29 22:33:49 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:33:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Hogwarts education
In-Reply-To: <903j6p+hcq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEIOCIAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6212

Magical education almost seems like a sneaky way to keep wizards and witches
segregated from Muggle society.  They fix it so that no magical child has
enough skills to get a well-paying job in the "outside" world.  A child with
nothing but a magical education would be computer-illiterate, incapable of
making change for muggle money, have no valid driver's license, be unable to
provide previous work references or school records, etc etc etc...
Essentially unemployable in the Muggle communities.

I can almost understand Arthur Weasley's complete ineptitude when it comes
to dealing with the Muggle world.  Someone like Harry or Hermione, who spend
a great deal of time in muggle society, would seem to have a definite
advantage finding work in either world after they leave school.



-----Original Message-----
From: milz [mailto:absinthe at mad.scientist.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:51 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Hogwarts education, was "Mad-Eye Moody" -
Character Sketch (long)


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, atelecky at m... wrote:
>
> > Incidentally, I haven't ever seen any evidence of any education in
> > music or art at Hogwarts--nothing like a band or an orchestra.
> > Dumbledore apparently likes chamber music; you would think he
would
> > encourage music learning at his own school [snip]
> > Not much of a thread, but can anyone think of some other things
> > Hogwarts might be lacking in? Right now its a bit of a one-
> dimensional
> > school--there's no philosophy or literature-- I suppose magic
takes
> > the place of science classes, and Hermione is taking Arithmancy,
so
> I
> > guess there's some version of math in the magical world?
>
> JKR has said that some of the traditional muggle subjects are
studied
> in the elective Muggles Studies classes, and the students certainly
> do a lot of writing in all their classes.  But it is true that the
> way Hogwarts is structured that the students do seem to be missing
> out on a lot of subjects that would be useful in both the magical
and
> muggle worlds.  In particular, I have wondered about the lack of
> music, and also sports other than the official House quidditch
> teams.  And shouldnt students like Dean Thomas, who are good at
> drawing, get some opportunity to get more artistic training?  Oh
> well, we cant expect JKR to think of everything!
>
> --Joywitch

I've wondered if they take courses such as mathematics at Hogwarts.
Harry came from a muggle school and had the equivalent of an American
6th grade education. It would be strange if his mathematics,
geography, etc. would stop at that point.

:-)Milz



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From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 22:57:34 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:57:34 -0000
Subject: HP on Boxing Day
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEPACMAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9041ku+844b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6213

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon" <simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote: "It goes on to say that BBC radio will feature an 
eight-hour
> reading of ``Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone'' on December 
26.
> 
> "Comedian Stephen Fry is to read the book which will dominate the 
airwaves
> on Boxing Day on Radio Four."
> 
> Stephen Fry did the books on tape of the UK version - will he be 
doing this
> live or will they just be airing 8 hours of the book on tape?
> 
> And how can we listen to this outside the UK?"
> 
> Radio 4 broadcast some of their programs on the net, but I am 
guessing that
> this will not be one of those programs. I guess they have got the 
rights to
> broadcast the UK version of the book to the UK. I would be very 
surprised if
> the rights in any way extended to broadcasting the books to the 
world in
> general (as would be the cast if they did it over the internet as 
well).
> 
> Also Radio 4 has two frequencies (one on FM and one on long wave). 
The one
> on FM is being used for the story, while the long wave is being 
used for
> their regular schedule. So I guess they will be broadcasting their 
normal
> service over the Internet.
> 
> I would also be pretty sure that it would be broadcast off one of 
the
> recordings. This seems to be confirmed on the BBC's news online 
website
> article
> 
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779
.stm).
> 
> Simon


I just ordered the tapes of Stephen Fry reading...I'll be interested 
as to how he compares to Jim Dale....I just love how Dale does Albus 
Dumbledore..."I must write to Az-ke-ban...."




From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 22:59:45 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:59:45 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Schools and Transportation
Message-ID: <df.d0d9f29.2756e461@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6214

I would think that a portkey would be along the lines of a taxi cab or 
limousine (or even an airport shuttle).  It seems you have to make special 
arrangements to use one.

-Mo

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 23:11:47 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:11:47 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Authur Weasely and...
Message-ID: <54.c88afb1.2756e733@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6215

Interesting theory...I looked up Arthur Wellesley on Brittanica.com.  This 
was the last sentence..."Today there is widespread appreciation of his 
military genius and of his character as an honest and selfless politician, 
uncorrupted by vast prestige."

Sounds like the good, honest, uncorrupted Arthur Weasley to me! 
    

-Mo

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Nov 29 23:57:12 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:57:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Hogwarts education &-The Muggle World
Message-ID: <42.d4223a2.2756f1d8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6216

In a message dated 11/29/00 5:59:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
klaatu at primenet.com writes:


> Magical education almost seems like a sneaky way to keep wizards and witches
> segregated from Muggle society.  They fix it so that no magical child has
> enough skills to get a well-paying job in the "outside" world.  A child with
> nothing but a magical education would be computer-illiterate, incapable of
> making change for muggle money, have no valid driver's license, be unable to
> provide previous work references or school records, etc etc etc...
> Essentially unemployable in the Muggle communities.
> 
> I can almost understand Arthur Weasley's complete ineptitude when it comes
> to dealing with the Muggle world.  Someone like Harry or Hermione, who spend
> a great deal of time in muggle society, would seem to have a definite
> advantage finding work in either world after they leave school.
> 

I think you have brought a very important point to our attention.  The 
magical world is almost completely cut off from the Muggles.  Arthur Weasley, 
who works for the Muggle Affairs Dept., knows little to nothing about the 
everyday aspects of Muggle-life (which in reality would be pathetic, but it 
seems JKR just meant it to be comical).  And for the most part, the adult 
wizards we have met seem to know even less than he does.  

But at Hogwarts we know several students that are half-bloods, or 
Muggle-borns.  Dean Thomas has his soccer posters up next to Ron's Chudley 
Cannons.  Hermione, the top student in the class, is Muggle-born.  And then 
we have Harry Potter, the most famous person in the Wizarding World, and he 
probably knows even less about the wizarding world than Arthur knows of 
Muggles.  It seems to me that Dumbledore is setting about to educate his 
students on more than just magical theory, application, and history.  He's 
planting the seeds for understanding and tolerance - not just within the 
wizarding world but beyond that into the realm of Muggles.  But it takes 
time, and maybe a battle against evil that will threaten both worlds....

The Muggle attack at the Quidditch Cup was just a taste of what is to come.  
Voldemort is back, probably more powerful than before.  It won't be the last 
attack on Muggles.  Perhaps we will see some Muggles join in on the fight?

The magical community has self-segregated themselves from the Muggle world 
for reasons I'm sure were felt to be in the best interest of everyone.  But I 
feel change coming and Hogwarts is the key to that change.

-Mo

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Nov 30 00:31:17 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:31:17 -0000
Subject: Suggestions please: Mysteries
Message-ID: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6217

Hey, gang...

I'm working on updating and upgrading the Mysteries section of the 
Lexicon. I'd like to list Top Mysteries, the ones that keep us all 
wondering and posting. I put the missing 24 hours in Harry's life on 
November 1, 1981, in that category, as well as the mystery of why 
Lupin didn't transform into a werewolf until the moon actually came 
out from behind some clouds. What other ones should I list? 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From john at walton.to  Thu Nov 30 01:07:59 2000
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:07:59 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Radio
In-Reply-To: <20001129164433.9446.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B64B58EF.89D2%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 6218

Erm...you can actually get Stephen Fry's audiotape reading of PS and CoS
from amazon.co.uk -- IMHO they're better than Jim Dale's readings.

--John


Denise Roger at gypsycaine at yahoo.com wrote:
Tape/Email/Post/File?  Please please please please
please??????

--- Simon <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
This is aimed at all of those that live in the UK.
Harry Potter and the
Philosopher's Stone (Stephen Fry version) will be
broadcast on BBC Radio 4
it entirety on Boxing Day.

More information at BBC news online. Link below.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1046000/1046779.stm



=====================================================
John "there really is a monster!" Walton     john at walton.to    ICQ: 96203920

George Bush: Electile Dysfunction complicated by Premature Congratulations.

Don't blame me -- I voted for Gore.
===================================================== 




From milgwn53 at its.caltech.edu  Thu Nov 30 01:08:51 2000
From: milgwn53 at its.caltech.edu (milgwn53 at its.caltech.edu)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:08:51 -0000
Subject: Wizard Schools and Transportation
In-Reply-To: <df.d0d9f29.2756e461@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9049b3+10juv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6219

Hi to those of you who don't know me. I've been on this list for a 
while, but only checking it once in a while. (usually when avoiding 
work ^_^ ) I've been on the ParadigmOfUncertainty list for a while and 
I post over there a fair amount....

Now, to get to the point.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, morine10 at a... wrote:
> I would think that a portkey would be along the lines of a taxi cab 
or 
> limousine (or even an airport shuttle).  It seems you have to make 
special 
> arrangements to use one.

I think I'd go for the shuttle/van/rideshare kind of thing, especially 
since it seems to be conventionally used for several people at once. 
(Note the Weaselys and Diggorys were scheduled for the same because of 
relatively close geographic points of origin) I certainly cannot see 
this being a high-class mode of travel like a limousine, especially 
since the portkey itself is usually a piece of enchanted rubbish.

--Kits




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov 30 01:09:47 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:09:47 -0000
Subject: Suggestions please: Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9049cr+doer@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6220

What was Sybil Trelawney's other accurate prediction?
Was there anything between Minerva McGonnagal and Tom Riddle when
they were students?
If there are 5 Gryffindor girls in Harry's year, what are the names
of the other two? 



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
> Hey, gang...
> 
> I'm working on updating and upgrading the Mysteries section of the 
> Lexicon. I'd like to list Top Mysteries, the ones that keep us all 
> wondering and posting. I put the missing 24 hours in Harry's life
on 
> November 1, 1981, in that category, as well as the mystery of why 
> Lupin didn't transform into a werewolf until the moon actually came 
> out from behind some clouds. What other ones should I list? 
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From eliasberg at ioc.net  Thu Nov 30 01:36:02 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:36:02 -0000
Subject: Suggestions please: Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <904au2+iudm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6221

How about the third time Harry felt the Imperious Curse.

Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 30 02:56:05 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 02:56:05 -0000
Subject: The biggest mystery
Message-ID: <904fk5+4eb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6222

The biggest mystery of all is 

Why did Voldemort kill James and Lily Potter?

--Joywitch

P.S. I posted a long list of mysteries, back in the Yahoo days, 
before GoF came out.  Maybe some of the FAQ people have it handy, if 
not I will try to find it and email it to you, Steve.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Nov 30 03:24:06 2000
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:24:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The biggest mystery
References: <904fk5+4eb1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A25C856.6C4E4B79@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6223

Hi --

Joywitch wrote:

> P.S. I posted a long list of mysteries, back in the Yahoo days,
> before GoF came out.  Maybe some of the FAQ people have it handy, if
> not I will try to find it and email it to you, Steve.

I have it as the Mysteries & Inconsistencies FAQ is on my plate.  I
don't know if you're interested in collaborating on this Steve, but
since the group FAQ is the exact same topic, it might make sense.  Email
me if you want to work together to get a really complete list of
mysteries & problems --

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drmm at fuuko.com  Thu Nov 30 00:37:36 2000
From: drmm at fuuko.com (DrMM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:37:36 -0600
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129182440.00a921b0@mail.fuuko.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6224

<<
 > I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired and
 > not inherent. In other words, she isn't "naturally bright". She is
 > constantly studying, constantly memorizing. What if Hermione stopped
 > studying as hard for once? Will her grades resemble those of the other
 > Gryffindors or will they stay constant?
 >
Like Pam, I think you're selling Hermione short (there's a surprise -
Penny leaping to the defense of Hermione!).  I just don't think that she
could study hard enough to do everything that she does without some
natural intellectual ability -- in fact, I think she has considerably
more than average intellectual ability.
<snip>
 >>

I happen to agree with both points . . . I do think Hermione has above 
average intellectual ability.  I just don't think she's a genius.  On the 
basis of plain intelligence I suspect Harry, Ron & Hermione are equal (IMO 
of course).  However, what seperates Hermione from them gradewise is her 
constant studying.  While I suspect she'd do well (say B's in the U.S. 
grading system compared to the A+'s she gets) I don't think she'd be at the 
top of the class without all the studying she does.  If she didn't have 
intelligence all the studying in the world would do her grades little 
good.  Even if, say Crabbe & Goyle studied constantly the way she does, 
they don't have the natural capacity to get the A's.  The grades would 
probably be better . . . just not that good.

Does that make sense?
*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM is found at drmm at fuuko.com
http://www.fuuko.com
ICQ: #9689360
Most recent anime: Magic Knights Rayearth




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 30 03:28:41 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:28:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Muggle World
References: <42.d4223a2.2756f1d8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A25C969.5F4394BA@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6225

morine10 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/29/00 5:59:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> klaatu at primenet.com writes:
>
> I think you have brought a very important point to our attention.  The
> magical world is almost completely cut off from the Muggles.  <snip>

> But at Hogwarts we know several students that are half-bloods, or
> Muggle-borns.

<snip>

> It won't be the last
> attack on Muggles.  Perhaps we will see some Muggles join in on the fight?
>
> The magical community has self-segregated themselves from the Muggle world
> for reasons I'm sure were felt to be in the best interest of everyone.  But I
> feel change coming and Hogwarts is the key to that change.

Now THIS is an interesting line of thought which would take the series in a
completely new direction.  What if the wizards' cover is blown--if the struggle
going on between Dumbledore and Voldemort blows the secret of magic into the open
so that the muggle world becomes so aware of magic that memory charms won't keep
the truth hidden anymore?  What if the Muggle world really starts interacting with
the wizarding world?  Rowling mentioned that something unexpected was going to be
coming up with the Dursleys.

Imagine if a muggle Rita Skeeter started sniffing around the Dursleys, for
example. . . .

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 30 03:35:23 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:35:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Suggestions please: Mysteries
References: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A25CAFB.14F7C7D@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6226

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> Hey, gang...
>
> I'm working on updating and upgrading the Mysteries section of the
> Lexicon. I'd like to list Top Mysteries, the ones that keep us all
> wondering and posting. I put the missing 24 hours in Harry's life on
> November 1, 1981, in that category, as well as the mystery of why
> Lupin didn't transform into a werewolf until the moon actually came
> out from behind some clouds. What other ones should I list?
>
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>

What was Trelawney's first correct prediction?

If this is Snape's second chance, what did he do with his first?

How did James and Lily get all their money?

And this is probably only a Minor Mystery, maybe even a Teeny Mystery, but
it still bugs me: why is the spell to bring someone back from
unconsciousness "Enervate," when the root of the word means nerveless or
weak?

I'll probably think of others.  Thank GOODNESS the wand order thing has been
solved, so we don't have to keep hashing over that.

Peg




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Thu Nov 30 04:20:01 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 30 Nov 2000 04:20:01 -0000
Subject: Poll results for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <975558001.92592@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6227


The following HPforGrownups poll is now closed.  Here are the 
final results: 


POLL QUESTION: Do you think that J.K. Rowling stole 
the Word Muggle, and other ideas for 
her Harry Potter Series from Ms. 
Stouffer?  

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Yes , 1 votes, 2.44%  
- No, 39 votes, 95.12%  
- Undecided, 1 votes, 2.44%  



For more information about this group, please visit 
http://www.egroups.com/group/HPforGrownups 

For help with eGroups, please visit
http://www.egroups.com/help

 






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Nov 30 05:08:31 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:08:31 -0000
Subject: Suggestions please: Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <904ncf+9afk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6228

More mysteries, minor and major:

Why did Gringott's Bank release money from Sirius' vault when he was 
a hunted fugitive?  Shouldn't they have told the MoM what he was up 
to? 

Does the money in Gringott's vaults earn interest?

Where did Snape go and what did he do at the end of GoF?  Did he try 
to get back into V's good graces, or what?

Why was Draco alone in the woods after the Quidditch WC?  Was he 
there with the intention to meet up with Harry, Hermione, and Ron?  
Was he actually trying to be helpful when he told Hermione to "keep 
that bushy head down"?

How did Crouch Jr. learn all the advanced magic that he displayed 
while at Hogwarts pretending to be Moody?  He was very young when 
sent to Azakban, then was under the Imperious Curse up until the 
QWC.  When did he change from the crying youth that Harry saw in the 
pensieve into an accomplished mage capable of hoodwinking a powerful 
magical object and successfully fooling Dumbledore for almost an 
entire school year?

What happens to an animagus' clothing and wand when he or she 
transforms?  

Where do female prefects bathe?

How do Quidditch players handle the Quaffle?  Is it caught and thrown 
or is it hit like in volleyball?

Why was it necessary to have such an elaborate plot to transport 
Harry to Voldemort in GoF?  It took nearly the whole school year, and 
there were many opportunities for a slip-up along the way.  Couldn't 
the ersatz Moody have kidnaped him by force, or slipped him a 
disguised portkey in a much easier, and more certain, way?

What happened to everyone's broom flying lessons after the first one 
described in PS? Did Hermione and Neville ever learn to fly one?

What happened to Harry's grandparents (both sets)? Were any of them 
victims of Lord V?

Do the Hogwarts toilets really empty directly into the lake as 
Moaning Myrtle implies?  Don't the merpeople object to this?

What's the deal with the stargazing Centaurs? Was there any 
particular significance to their observation that Mars was especially 
bright?

-Jim Flanagan





From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 30 12:24:28 2000
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Anake)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:24:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Quote...
Message-ID: <20001130122428.9873.qmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6229

> 
> -Mo
> 
> "Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
> the Goblet of Fire

Saw this quote in your sig. When I read it in the book, I thought it was one of the
most hilarious lines I had ever read! I laughed out loud! That made me think about
my own school. If a guy ever said something like that to a girl in the American
public school system they would be taken to the office and written up for sexual
harrassment, even if he meant it as a joke. I'm glad to see Ron didn't get into as
much trouble as if he were in an American public school (which he's not, thank
god).

From,

Anake

=====
=========
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"Soon they'll be breeding us like cattle! You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of people! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is people"-Charlton Heston, SOYLENT GREEN 
=========

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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Nov 30 13:14:45 2000
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:14:45 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Suggestions please: Mysteries
References: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c05acf$8b6d4c60$f8268cd4@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 6230

 What other ones should I list?

Hi, Just joined the list. For those of you who aren't on other HP egroup
lists, my name is Michelle, I'm in my late twenties and I live just
outside London.

As for mysteries, the ones that I'm intrigued by are Neville Longbottom
( is he really a very powerful wizard just too frightened by what he's
seen to use it ? ), Molly Weasley ( why is she so very affectionate to
Harry ? ), Was Ludo Bagman really just stupid or was he bluffing ? and
last, but by no means least, Why is Fudge so unwilling to believe that
Voldemort is rising again ?
Is he an appeaser or is he not as good as we are led to believe ?

Just my thoughts

Michelle




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 30 14:19:11 2000
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:19:11 -0000
Subject: portkey conundrum
Message-ID: <905nkv+arf1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6231

There is a point that is very puzzling to me in the Goblet of Fire
plot, and its to do with 
the trophy cup being made into a portkey by the fake Mad Eye Moody: 
Harry being manipulated into the contest, being secretly helped by
Moody - all this is to 
make Harry the winner of the triwizard contest, thereby making him
the first to touch the 
trophy cup, thereby whisking him away to Voldemort. My question is
this - why couldn't 
Moody turn any object into a portkey and then give it to Harry to
touch? why was the whole 
long and involved process of the contest necessary? Is there a point
in the story that I've 
missed?

Naama







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 30 14:35:39 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:35:39 -0000
Subject: Task One: Bluff the Magic Dragons (song)
Message-ID: <905ojr+c9d7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6232

Triwizards Task One: Bluff the Magic Dragons

(to the tune of ? oh, do I really need to tell you?)

(Enter the Triwazards Judges, Hagrid and the four Triwizard Champions)

JUDGES, HAGRID
Tough are magic dragons
They're 20 meters tall 
You can't keep them in captivity 
Without a firewall
The ones we have are nesting
Upon their eggs they bask
And you must take an egg away 
That's the First Triwizards Task

CEDRIC
I tried transfiguration 
Changed a rock into a pup

FLEUR 
I put mine in a spellbound trance
Until she fired up

VIKTOR 
I put mine in a stupor
It staggered like a dolt

HARRY 
With a little aid from Hermione
I cried "Accio, Firebolt!" 

JUDGES
He bluffed the magic dragon!
He seized the golden egg!
Harry showed that he's in charge
Like Alexander Haig
Gryffindor was joyful
They partied through the night

HAGRID
And when Harry hit the sack,
He thought "Dragons are all right." 

	- CMC





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Nov 30 15:09:37 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:09:37 -0000
Subject: Not quite Hogwarts but...
Message-ID: <905qjh+9qds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6233

Today's LA Times has a story about the efforts of real life British 
boarding schools to attract American students, capitalizing on the 
popularity of the HP series.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20001130/t000114956.html





From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Thu Nov 30 15:40:23 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:40:23 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter on the Radio
In-Reply-To: <20001129164433.9446.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <905sd7+611u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6234

> Tape/Email/Post/File?  Please please please please
> please??????

NAPSTER comes to mind.  Plenty of Audio on there.

I have this already on Tape... it's 6 tapes - not sure of their 
length... some are probably C90's.
 
I wonder if it's possible to do a webcast using RealAudio... hmm, 
don't think my ISP who offers RealAudio allows webcasts, only streams 
of set length.

I wonder if the BBC will be doing it as a Webcast as well... might 
ask them, always worth asking.

Well... I now know what I will be doing Boxing Day.

Nick.




From nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com  Thu Nov 30 15:48:37 2000
From: nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com (nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:48:37 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter on the Radio
In-Reply-To: <905sd7+611u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <905ssl+rsuf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6235

I've emailed Helen at the Beeb regarding if the prog will be done as 
a Webcast.

We can but hope.

Nick.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 30 17:15:33 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:15:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter on the Radio
References: <905sd7+611u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c05af1$28944e00$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6236

Nick,
Napster doesn't like me anymore.  I bought and paid for my Metallica, and
then Music Matched it onto my system, to use Napster to DJ it (I like a good
mix).  Of course, Metallica didn't think this was kosher, so now I am
restricted--no more Napster :(

Meanies.

That's why I asked if anyone would be able to copy it in digital off the web
(commercials and all--would be interesting to hear Briton commercials!),
then add it to a file somewhere.

On another subject, I heard about Andrew in Kent.  I hope no one who's there
is being floated away!
************************************************************
~~Dee~~
:)

"Night is the hardest time to be alive.
 It lasts so long, and 4am knows all my secrets."
(Poppy Brite)

Get ICQ and get connected!  ICQ me @ 21282374
************************************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: <nick at dvd-films.freeuk.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 9:40 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter on the Radio


> > Tape/Email/Post/File?  Please please please please
> > please??????
>
> NAPSTER comes to mind.  Plenty of Audio on there.
>
> I have this already on Tape... it's 6 tapes - not sure of their
> length... some are probably C90's.
>
> I wonder if it's possible to do a webcast using RealAudio... hmm,
> don't think my ISP who offers RealAudio allows webcasts, only streams
> of set length.
>
> I wonder if the BBC will be doing it as a Webcast as well... might
> ask them, always worth asking.
>
> Well... I now know what I will be doing Boxing Day.
>
> Nick.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Nov 30 16:46:07 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:46:07 -0000
Subject: HP on the radio
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEABCNAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 6237

Dee wrote: "That's why I asked if anyone would be able to copy it in digital
off the web (commercials and all--would be interesting to hear Briton
commercials!), then add it to a file somewhere."

As it is the BBC there will be no adverts, except for ones advertising other
programmes of theirs. I would guess that they will do an nearly
uninterrupted, if not totally uninterrupted, broadcast. Now all I have to do
is arrange to be in that day!


Dee wrote: "On another subject, I heard about Andrew in Kent.  I hope no one
who's there is being floated away!"

I must have missed this. It keeps raining here, but the river is quite a bit
lower than it was a few weeks ago.

Simon




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Thu Nov 30 17:12:26 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:12:26 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129182440.00a921b0@mail.fuuko.com>
Message-ID: <004201c05af0$b791a400$a836073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 6238


----- Original Message -----
From: DrMM <drmm at fuuko.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 12:37 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw


> <<
>  > I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired and
>  > not inherent. In other words, she isn't "naturally bright". She is
>  > constantly studying, constantly memorizing. What if Hermione stopped
>  > studying as hard for once? Will her grades resemble those of the other
>  > Gryffindors or will they stay constant?
>  >
> Like Pam, I think you're selling Hermione short (there's a surprise -
> Penny leaping to the defense of Hermione!).  I just don't think that she
> could study hard enough to do everything that she does without some
> natural intellectual ability -- in fact, I think she has considerably
> more than average intellectual ability.
> <snip>
>  >>
>
> I happen to agree with both points . . . I do think Hermione has above
> average intellectual ability.  I just don't think she's a genius.  On the
> basis of plain intelligence I suspect Harry, Ron & Hermione are equal (IMO
> of course).

But then Remus tells Hermione that she is the cleverest witch of her age
that he's ever met, which suggests that she is special, it's more than just
putting more effort in than the others (although it doesn't hurt), and that
she is more academically able than Ron and Harry.

Alix




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Nov 30 17:34:46 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:34:46 -0000
Subject: The wand order mystery...
Message-ID: <90633m+49uv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6239

During our discussion on the editorial change relating to the figures 
emerging from Voldemort's wand, I dropped a note to Bloomsbury.  Here 
is the reply:

"Thank you for your e-mail.  It is indeed an error which was spotted 
by our editorial team in July and corrected in subsequent editions.  
The difference in timing of corrections between editions, both our 
own and US, is down to reprint timings.  Hope this helps. 

Best wishes
Bloomsbury.com"

Neil






From eliasberg at ioc.net  Thu Nov 30 18:05:39 2000
From: eliasberg at ioc.net (eliasberg at ioc.net)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:05:39 -0000
Subject: Quote...
In-Reply-To: <20001130122428.9873.qmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9064tj+5jo7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6240

The other quote I love is from the PoA 

"A bunch of surly security trolls had been hired to guard her. They 
paced the corridor in a menacing group, talking in grunts and 
comparing the size of their clubs." 

I picture JKR in a pub watching a pack of men when she wrote 
this.

Dave




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Nov 30 18:46:56 2000
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:46:56 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The wand order mystery...
References: <90633m+49uv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c05afd$eb1017a0$b72d8cd4@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 6241

> During our discussion on the editorial change relating to the figures
> emerging from Voldemort's wand, I dropped a note to Bloomsbury.  Here
> is the reply:
>
> "Thank you for your e-mail.  It is indeed an error which was spotted
> by our editorial team in July and corrected in subsequent editions.
> The difference in timing of corrections between editions, both our
> own and US, is down to reprint timings.  Hope this helps.
>
Please humor a newbie by telling me if I'm reading right and that there
are two printing mistakes in the first edition of GOF ?

Michelle






From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Nov 30 19:09:14 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:09:14 -0000
Subject: Not quite Hogwarts but...
In-Reply-To: <905qjh+9qds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9068kq+2qr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6242

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Today's LA Times has a story about the efforts of real life British 
> boarding schools to attract American students, capitalizing on the 
> popularity of the HP series.
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20001130/t000114956.html

Before reading this article, I noticed an ad in todays Washington 
Post for a boarding school fair to be held at the Mayflower Hotel; 
the first time Ive seen such an ad, although the above article 
mentions a previous boarding school fair also at the Mayflower.  I 
also read an article a few months back which claimed, somewhat 
opposite to the above article, that within England kids are more 
interested in boarding schools; and that enrollments are increasing 
due to the popularity of HP.

The point being that there seems to be a lot more interest in English 
boarding schools these days, which is ironic as JKR has stated that 
she does not really think boarding schools are a good idea and does 
not advocate children attending them.

So, what do we think about boarding schools, people?  Personally, I 
am fascinated by them, and part of the appeal of the HP books to me 
is the same as the appeal that Tom Browns Schools Day and other books 
about English boarding schools have always had for me.  I think it is 
the idea of kids living (sort of) on their own that has always made 
those books fascinating to me.  On the other hand, I would never want 
to go to any of those schools or send my kids to them.  It is a nice 
fantasy but I think children are better of when they are part of a 
supportive, close family, especially in their teenage years.  Then 
again, if a kid has a crappy, dysfunctional family they might be 
better off at a boarding school.  And I have acquaintances who live 
in a small town who sent their younger daughter to boarding school, 
at her request, because the academic opportunities at the local 
schools were very limited.  (or maybe she is a witch...hmmmmm)

--Joywitch




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Nov 30 19:12:27 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:12:27 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Radio
In-Reply-To: <B64B58EF.89D2%john@walton.to>
References: <20001129164433.9446.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com> <B64B58EF.89D2%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <bc5d2tk0ls6vifqnl2t0p1d6jb5l445pqk@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6243

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:07:59 +0000, John Walton <john at walton.to>
wrote:

>Erm...you can actually get Stephen Fry's audiotape reading of PS and CoS
>from amazon.co.uk -- IMHO they're better than Jim Dale's readings.

I agree. I have them all and Stephen Fry IMHO does a great job. I hope
he will do GoF as well. They are more expensive than the Jim Dale
tapes, but for me they are worth their price.

Monika


--
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From terzarima at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 30 21:05:27 2000
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:05:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not quite Hogwarts but...
References: <9068kq+2qr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A26C117.79A6D861@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 6244



Joywitch wrote:

> Then
> again, if a kid has a crappy, dysfunctional family they might be
> better off at a boarding school.  And I have acquaintances who live
> in a small town who sent their younger daughter to boarding school,
> at her request, because the academic opportunities at the local
> schools were very limited.  (or maybe she is a witch...hmmmmm)

LOL I was certainly a witch!

When I was a kid I BEGGED my parents to let me go to a boarding school
precisely because there was so little happening in our small  town and I
craved the challenge. I was also very independent and eager to participate
in things without having to be perpetually tied to the "No, you can't go! I
don't have time to drive you to theatre rehearsals, art classes, or poetry
readings, and NO you can't use the bus because they are dangerous, and NO
you can't go with friends because I will worry about you...." response to
everything I wanted to do.

I was  from a  pretty dysfunctional and controlling family. I used to do all
my writing late at night because it was the only time anyone left me alone.
Books were my escape, and boarding school felt like a dream to me. When I
was sixteen I finally did manage to get away for a summer to study at a
University, and it was everything I had hoped for. Too bad it was only a
summer.

College was the big release-- I felt as though I had finally gotten out of
prison! I got into Smith College and for the first time got to do all of
things I had been wanting for so long, without anybody sitting on me. I
remember well how that felt. I remember also turning green with envy when my
boarding school friends told me about all of the exciting things they did in
high school. I rememeber thinking "You went to Art museums??! You got to
study Art History??! You actually had classmates who were from different
countries??!" It seemed astonishing to me because I never had such
opportunities.

I think boarding schools get a bad rap. I think for a lot of kids it would
be a great opportunity.

Suzanne





From morine10 at aol.com  Thu Nov 30 21:35:18 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:35:18 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quote...
Message-ID: <de.d0ed401.27582216@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6245

In a message dated 11/30/00 1:07:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
eliasberg at ioc.net writes:


> The other quote I love is from the PoA 
> 
> "A bunch of surly security trolls had been hired to guard her. They 
> paced the corridor in a menacing group, talking in grunts and 
> comparing the size of their clubs." 
> 
> I picture JKR in a pub watching a pack of men when she wrote 
> this.
> 
> Dave
> 

Ooooh, that's a good one!  Can't believe I missed it.  Thanks so much for 
pointing it out!  I just love the fact that JKR is non-PC.  It's refreshing.

-Mo

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Nov 30 21:54:06 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:54:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Suggestions please: Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <90474l+3tld@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130132859.03231a90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6246

At 12:31 AM 11/30/00 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote:
>I put the missing 24 hours in Harry's life on
>November 1, 1981, in that category, as well as the mystery of why
>Lupin didn't transform into a werewolf until the moon actually came
>out from behind some clouds. What other ones should I list?

How about:

-- Is Cornileus Fudge/the MoM elected or a dictatorship?

-- Why does V want the extinction of the Potter line?

-- Why didn't Fred and George ever notice the name "Peter Petiigrew"
      on the Marauder's Map?

-- Moaning Myrtle wears glasses, so why did the Basilisk kill
      instead of just petrifying her?

-- Are there any Slytherins who are decent human beings?

-- Why is the Bloody Baron bloody?

-- How could Crouch make the Triwizard Cup into a portkey
      when Dumbledore has obviously enchanted Hogwarts
      against transportation magic?

-- Why is Harry's-birth-in-1980 accepted as dogma, in spite of the
       evidence (such as Dudley's anachronistic Playstation) against it?



                                                 -- Dave




From morine10 at aol.com  Thu Nov 30 22:04:53 2000
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:04:53 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Muggle World
Message-ID: <c5.b96d107.27582905@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6247

In a message dated 11/29/00 10:55:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
pkerr06 at attglobal.net writes:


> What if the wizards' cover is blown--if the struggle
> going on between Dumbledore and Voldemort blows the secret of magic into 
> the open
> so that the Muggle world becomes so aware of magic that memory charms won't 
> keep
> the truth hidden anymore?  What if the Muggle world really starts 
> interacting with
> the Wizarding world?  

This is exactly what I was thinking.  We already know that the Wizarding 
world is divided.  Manpower will be limited and Ministry workers (those not 
on the Dark Side) are going to have their hands full fighting evil.  There is 
going to be little time for memory charms on Muggles.  

Going off on this....Muggle technology, the equivalent of magic, may have 
some solutions that the Wizarding world could use -- and vise versa.  Maybe 
Muggles have something that could deflect the Avada Kedavra curse.  A united 
front could be a possibility.  

-Mo

"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" - Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and 
the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 30 23:11:45 2000
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (Brandgwen G.)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:11:45 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <9021lc+kpcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <906mrh+su2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6248

Susan wrote:
>I would suggest that it places the students in part based on their 
abilities, in part based on their characters, but that the final 
decision is based on what they truly want. We have been confused 
because Hermione -- obviously an outstanding student who is bright,
is focused and works hard -- is not in Ravenclaw. Well, deep down, 
Hermione values being brave, daring and chivalrous over being smart
-- hence she is in Gryffindor.

Absolutely.  You'll remember, when the hat was sorting Harry, its
main concern was which house would help Harry the most.  While it 
looked closely at his different strengths, its reason for wanting to 
put Harry in Slytherin was the realisation of Harry's potential. 
"You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and 
Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness..."  No matter how 
much natural ability you have, unless you are following the path
which best suits your character, you will never excel.

Ask not what you can do for your house, but what your house can do
for you.

Milz wrote:
>I have the tendency to think that Hermione's "smarts" are acquired 
and not inherent.

I have to disagree.  I think we got the best look at the three's 
natural abilities while they were looking for the Stone.  They 
couldn't have prepared for that - they didn't know what they would be 
facing.  However, Hermione was able to defeat Snape's barrier with 
very little trouble.

This, however, doesn't necessarily mean that cleverness and knowledge 
is what she values most.  Certainly, she studies a great deal, but I 
think that is an easy way for her to distinguish herself.  Goodness 
knows, she shows off about it enough (as much as I love her,
sometimes I wish Ron would just go to the library, borrow "Hogwart's: 
a History", and hit her over the head with it).  However, what she 
values most, as is alluded to in the PS, are courage, loyalty and 
friendship.  It is possible she studies so hard to compensate for
what she sees as her weaknesses.
 
drpam wrote:
>But she's not just book smart, she often uses her knowledge in the 
service of others, to help them, to right wrongs or fight injustice. 
And these are the aspects that she values in herself and how she sees 
herself, so this is why she is in Gryffindor. 

I'm not sure she does see this in herself, particularly toward the 
start of the books.  During the beginning of the PS, she is described 
as a notorious goody-two-shoes.  However, it is said that after the 
incident with the Troll, she becomes far more relaxed about rule 
breaking.  I think that, deep down, she would always have liked to 
have been a reckless rule breaker - someone who stands up for what
she believes in, in spite of the establishment.  However, this isn't 
in her nature.  Recklessness scares her, as is seen by her reaction
to most of Harry and Ron's stupid ideas.  However, having defeated
the Troll and lied about it, she realised that neither God nor 
Dumbledore was going to strike her down, so she let up a bit.

As the series progresses, she continues be become more reckless.  
Hitting Malfoy and walking out on Trelawney were two great examples
of this.  When Ron voices his astonished admiration, she is pleased 
with herself.  I think she is realising that part of her nature she 
had wished to see.  Part of this, I believe, is due to Ron and
Harry's influence.  Nice job, Sorting Hat.

As for putting her in Ravenclaw, what use would Hermione have for a 
bunch of Ravenclaws?  She's smarter than most of them and she doesn't 
need the good influence to help her study.  She has already made the 
most of that part of herself, so, Ravenclaw wouldn't help her in the 
least.

The interesting extension of this, of course, is that the house you 
are placed in really does reflect your personality.  If it were only 
based on ability, your house would be as much a product of your DNA
as your character.
Gwen.





From ABoyko at starchoice.com  Thu Nov 30 23:12:43 2000
From: ABoyko at starchoice.com (ABoyko at starchoice.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:12:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not quite Hogwarts but...
Message-ID: <771412C4D10CD311B09D00902727A97301DEED8E@lincoln.starchoice.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6249

My father was in the Canadian Armed Forces, and from 1977-79, we were
stationed in Moscow, in what was the USSR.

I went to the local Anglo-American school, conducted in English and run by
the British and Americans. (We also shared the building with the Japanese
and Swedish schools).  The school had teachers up to Grade 9. There was a
guided studies programme for teens taking correspondence courses for Grades
10-12, or they went to boarding schools or stayed in their home country with
relatives. I was in Grades 6-7 and hated the school. I was quite the
outcast. If the HP books had been around at that time, I would have
identified with Neville the most.

I desparately wanted to go to boarding school! I hated living in Moscow, and
the family situation was quite dysfunctional, shall we say.

The school library had a strong British influence, and I remember wistfully
reading a lot of novels set in boarding schools. Some of my classmates had
older siblings who got to go to boarding school in Switzerland or England.
Oh, how I would have loved that! I agree with Joywitch that there is the
appeal of kids living away from their families. I am sure I would have
thrived better at a boarding school or if I'd stayed in Canada with my
relatives. Problem was, nobody asked me what I wanted. I may have brought up
the subject of boarding school once, but it wasn't an option.

Angela

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joywitch  [SMTP:joym999 at aol.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, November 30, 2000 3:09 PM
> To:	HPforGrownups at egroups.com
> Subject:	[HPforGrownups] Re: Not quite Hogwarts but...
> 
> So, what do we think about boarding schools, people?  Personally, I 
> am fascinated by them, and part of the appeal of the HP books to me 
> is the same as the appeal that Tom Browns Schools Day and other books 
> about English boarding schools have always had for me.  I think it is 
> the idea of kids living (sort of) on their own that has always made 
> those books fascinating to me.  On the other hand, I would never want 
> to go to any of those schools or send my kids to them.  It is a nice 
> fantasy but I think children are better of when they are part of a 
> supportive, close family, especially in their teenage years.  Then 
> again, if a kid has a crappy, dysfunctional family they might be 
> better off at a boarding school.  And I have acquaintances who live 
> in a small town who sent their younger daughter to boarding school, 
> at her request, because the academic opportunities at the local 
> schools were very limited.  (or maybe she is a witch...hmmmmm)
> 
> --Joywitch
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Thu Nov 30 23:34:12 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:34:12 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129182440.00a921b0@mail.fuuko.com> <004201c05af0$b791a400$a836073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <005401c05b26$20b08ca0$0a8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 6250


----- Original Message -----
From: Alix Petty <bel_imperia at btinternet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw


> But then Remus tells Hermione that she is the cleverest witch of her age
> that he's ever met, which suggests that she is special, it's more than
just
> putting more effort in than the others (although it doesn't hurt), and
that
> she is more academically able than Ron and Harry.
>
> Alix

Yeah, I'd agree with that.  Hermione doesn't just get top marks relative to
the rest of the year, she routinely gets amazing marks along the lines of
112 per cent.  This is down to more than just studying and practicing,
Hermione seems to have genuine magical talent.

Prediction: Hermione to end up as an Animaga.  She's got the talent to do
it, and a mentoring relationship with McGonagall who's been there before
her.

Jinx




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 30 23:35:44 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:35:44 -0000
Subject: Not quite Hogwarts but...
In-Reply-To: <9068kq+2qr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <906o8g+kj72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6251


 Joywitch wrote-
"So, what do we think about boarding schools, people?  Personally, I 
am fascinated by them, and part of the appeal of the HP books to me 
is the same as the appeal that Tom Browns Schools Day and other books 
about English boarding schools have always had for me." 


Well I have to agree that with that. I've always been fascinated by 
them.  As a young child I would tell my Mom to send me off to 
boarding school, though I was usually only joking. However if I 
seriously could go to a boarding school I'm not entirely sure I 
would.  I mean I don't think my parents would be to happy about it.  
The fact does remain that I would love to have more academic 
opportunities than I do, but alas that to seems to be a castle in the 
air, and I'm not holding my breath...As far a educational caliber 
goes university is a light at the end of my high school tunnel.  

Yet from what I've read that has to do with Boarding Schools I would 
think that the major difference isn't just the academics, but the 
atmosphere.  In a boarding school one is with their friends 100% of 
the time and that can be difficult at any age( I'm not an adult but I 
would assume that this is true)- most especially during adolesence 
and the teens...And in another light it would be wonderful and most 
likely builds these children's independence and sense of self in a 
way and period of their lives that could never be duplicated.  

Anyway my guess is that while HP may have sparked interest in 
Boarding Schools it is not (by far) an example of  real boarding 
school life.  (Now I don't attend one so that's speculation).  
However no one can deny that a normal school life (anywhere) is not 
half as exciting as Harry's.

So what am I trying say?  I'm not exactly sure but I do think that 
Boarding Schools could be extremely helpful OR harmful to a child.  
Just as regular day schools can.  It is, in reality not just an 
education but a way of life that, has to fit the person who is living 
it, or it won't benifit them at all.

 

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 30 23:48:54 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:48:54 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter on the Radio
In-Reply-To: <002501c05af1$28944e00$9fdd5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <906p16+h272@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 6252

"...there's always Napster"

Well, I use Napster a lot, but I really don't think that it is 
right.  I did download a chapter of Jim Dale and Stephen Fry's  
readings though, just to see which one I liked better, and therefore 
which one to buy.  IMO I like Stephen Fry better, and now all I need 
to do is actually order the tapes...

Scott