[HPforGrownups] More on Justice

[Peg Kerr]

No: HPFGUIDX 5997

Kimberly wrote:

> Coming out of lurkdom momentarily to respond.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
>
> > I would suggest that the Wizard AND Muggle world might have been
> > better off had Lupin and Black killed Peter Pettigrew.
>
> I have to disagree.  Didn't Dumbledore say that Harry did the right
> thing by not letting them kill Pettigrew, and that he might find that
> action on his part to help him out in the future?  From that comment
> I'd say that JK would disagree with you that the world would have
> been
> better off.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> I think here
> > there might be a conflict between the pagan and christian world
> view.
> > The christian world view says that vengeance is the lord's and
> > therefore Lupin and Black would be sinning by killing Peter. The
> > pagan world view suggests that a person is responsible for their
> > actions. Lupin and Black could have therefore made the decision to
> > kill Peter in the best interests of themselves, the Wizard world,
> >and as payback for Lily and James. Because they are both basically
> good
> > people, they probably would have suffered for their action
> (remorse,
> > regret, but they would have paid that price in order to rid the
> world
> > of Peter.
>
> I'm confused about the conflict in these two views as you describe
> them.  I'm a Christian and I fully expect to be responsible for my
> actions.  Yes, vengeance is the Lord's.  This means that payback is a
> bigger B than any of us could manage to exact on our own, even if
> it's
> not immediate.  The only difference I can see is that in Christianity
> there is the opportunity for redemption and change of heart, which
> I'm
> guessing is what Dumbledore's referring to - Pettigrew has the
> opportunity now to change his behaviour and help Harry in response to
> his mercy.  Whether he takes it or not remains to be seen, but he
> certainly wouldn't get the chance if he were dead.  True, his
> survival
> brought about some unpleasant side-effects such as the return of Mr
> Nasty, but Dumbledore seems to be saying Pettigrew could well be more
> useful alive even so.  That would indicate that even without
> questioning the morality of it, killing Pettigrew would have been
> unwise.

I'm delighted -- there has been a lot of response to my justice essay, and
some spirited discussion.  I'm going to respond in general, not always
acknowledging specific messages--it's late, I'm tired, and I've been at the
emergency room for a good part of today with my daughter (high fever, strep
throat.  Great timing, right before Thanksgiving.  Ugh.)

Re: the contrasting between "pagan" and "Christian" concepts of justice:  I
suppose my own personal concept of justice is informed by my Christianity,
but I don't want to live in a theocracy.  (I very much appreciate, for
example, the separation of church and state mandated by the United States
Constitution).  Perhaps pagans, christians, and those of any other faith can
accept the "secular" construct of justice, i.e., when the accused is brought
before the bar, he answers not to the individual he has wronged, but to
society in general, to the code of law.  When punishment is mandated by the
court as codified by the laws of the society, it is not the personal
vengeance of the victim (and therefore, the victim need feel no guilt for
what justice decrees will happen to the criminal, which would not be the
case if the victim indulged in vigilante actions--say, for example, if
Sirius and Lupin took it upon themselves to blow Peter Pettigrew away).

I like the point that someone made (Rita?? Someone else?  Too tired to
check) about Barty Crouch, Sr.'s character--the fact that it was so
important to him that everything be done "by the rules" and yet he broke
them by trading his wife for his son, and disaster and his own death
followed from that.

I didn't go quite enough into the issue of the impropriety of Barty Crouch,
Sr. sitting in judgment over his own son.  He really should have recused
himself--that's the legal term which means, he should formally had himself
removed from the case because he had a personal tie with the defendant and
therefore thinks he would be prejudiced.  Although Barty Crouch Sr.did sit
in judgment over his son, his prejudice was the opposite that one might
expect: he was crueler and more dismissive than a truly dispassionate judge
would be, rather than more sympathetic.

I've actually thought about this issue a bit, since in my last book, I had
something similar, a situation where a man was the judge in a case where his
wife was the accused--again, an obvious case where the judge absolutely
should recuse himself.  But I had to have him remain as her judge (mainly
because I stole Hans Christian Andersen's plot, and that's the way he wrote
it) so I had to do some hard thinking and explaining of why on earth did he
remain as the judge on the case.

Another thought: when doing my original essay on Justice, I also considered
throwing in something about the unjust way Snape treats many of his students
(chiefly Gryffindors) and the problem in the fact that Dumbledore lets him
do it.  But I never got around to adding that thought, and I sent the essay
on its way without it.  Anyway, if anyone wants to discuss it (although I
know we've touched upon it before in other threads) feel free.

Upon further thinking on the subject, I really do think that justice plays
an enormous part in the series, particularly in books 3 and 4, and that the
wizards who are not in league with Voldemort are clearly splitting into two
groups at the end of GoF: 1) those, like Cornelius Fudge who want to keep
the Dementors in charge of Azkaban and who don't want, as I put it in the
justice essay, to know the whole story; and 2) Dumbledore, Harry, and his
friends, who believe that Voldemort has returned and want to work together
to stop him.

I'm sure there was other stuff I wanted to throw in or respond to, but can't
come up with it at the moment.  I AM tired, so I'm going to send this along
without further editing, although I suspect it's rather incoherent.  I'll do
better next time.

Peg