[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape/Lily (was: in love (and Imperio curse)

[Amanda Lewanski]

No: HPFGUIDX 3546

Rita Winston wrote:

> Instead, the idea is that Severus already hated James for having
> everything that Severus wanted and didn't have (popularity, Quidditch
> stardom, the best grades in their year, Head Boy, loving parents,
> praise from Dumbledore, etc) (and hated James' friends for being
> friends with James), and the Whomping Willow prank was just the icing
> on the cake,
>
> And then, on top of all else, James also got the one thing that
> Severus had come to want the most of anything in his life: Lily.

This is pretty much the scenario I had in mind; that the Lily situation,
because of Snape's already hating James, was sort of the "icing on the cake"
thing that cemented that hatred and made it last so many, many years.

> Snape didn't expect Lily to leave James and come to him, but still he
> didn't want Lily to be killed, so when he learned of Voldemort's plan
> to kill the Potter family because of some prophecy that a Potter man
> would be his downfall, Snape demanded that Voldemort spare her.
>
> Snape was a sufficiently valuable servant that V humored him by
> promising not to kill Lily if she didn't get in the way: "instead
> I'll give her to you to do with as you will". That is why Lily was
> the *only* one of V's victims who was offered the chance not to die.

Next to Voldemort just being a b****** in general and toying with a victim,
this is the best explanation for that offer I've heard.

> But Snape knew that Lily would never accept her life at the price of
> her baby's life, so his next attempt to save her was that he warned
> Our Side of Their Side's plot against the Potters. Remember, a spy
> among the Dark Siders was how the Potters knew to go into hiding, and
> protect their hiding place with the Fidelius Charm.
>
> Despite all, V found and killed the Potters. S, now craving nothing
> but vengeance for Lily, walked out on V and over to D, who completely
> trusts S because D knows how implacably S holds grudges. Therefore, V
> knows that S has left him forever and S can no longer act as a double
> agent.

I had postulated something similar, that even if she'd chosen James over
him, Snape didn't want her dead. But didn't Dumbledore say that Snape had
been a spy for the good side for some time, even before the fall of
Voldemort? It can't have been Lily's death that caused him to be a spy. And
after Voldemort's fall, pretty much all the former Death Eaters who could,
went back to their former lives.

I agree, though, that it is a knowledge of Snape's inner workings and
personal loyalties that cause both Dumbledore and Voldemort to be certain
that Snape will not change sides again.

--Amanda

> The grudges that S holds include not only old schoolboy grudges, but
> also an additional grudge against James and a personal (rather than
> inherited) grudge against Harry, because it was Their Fault that Lily
> died,

ooo, good point. The implication is strong, isn't it, that it was Harry that
Voldemort wanted. If he hadn't been born, Lily would still be alive. What a
great additional reason to hate Harry.

> and an additional grudge against Sirius, because he believed it
> was Sirius who had betrayed Lily to her death. It has been pointed
> out that he shows signs of hating Sirius much more than he hates
> James' other friend, Remus.

True. All good observations. But again, Sirius is the one who seemed the
most callous in the werewolf-joke thing, too, When Lupin couldn't help it
and James pulled Snape back, presumably Sirius still thought it was a grand
joke.

> Unfortunately, it has also been pointed out that it is difficult to
> reconcile the ideas that S thinks Sirius was the traitor, that S
> didn't walk out until after L was killed, and V's Death Eaters (both
> S and Peter were marked) knew each other: surely S would have seen
> Peter and not Sirius at DE meetings.

For this to be a problem, we must assume great big state of the union
meetings with no hoods. I think it probably was what has been called a cell
system (or units, like Mary Kay cosmetics does), where you'll know everyone
in your unit and work with them and try to beat the other units, etc., but
you won't necessarily know everyone in other units. Voldemort was probably
aware that it was advantageous to his purposes to keep Snape unaware that
Pettigrew was the leak, if he suspected Snape at all of being an agent. And
I somehow think that Voldemort's the suspicious type.

Thanks for stating this so clearly! It tallies pretty closely with the
scenario I'd had in mind.

--Amanda