From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Sep  1 00:10:23 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 20:10:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
Message-ID: <id.31082000201023.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 657

When the pronunciation issue came up way back in the relative beginning of the club, I posted the correct answer, actually using Hermione Gingold as my reference!
--------------------------------------------------------------
<Doesn't anybody in this group remember Hermione Gingold a British  actress who had a major supporting role in 'Gigi' and well as the  Broadway musical of "A Little Night Music" by Stephan Sondheim???  She was as big in the US as in the UK.  Nobody had trouble with  Hur-MY-oh-nee way back then in the good old days.>



From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 00:10:02 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:10:02 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
Message-ID: <8oms4q+7j7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 658

Hey folks, I know I'm posting unusually often for someone on 
sabbatical, but I couldn't help it.  I have had a lot of free time at 
work recently.
I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of the 
Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie.  So much 
for casting only British unknowns...
~Kaitlin




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Sep  1 00:16:55 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 20:16:55 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Moments & Various Things
Message-ID: <id.31082000201655.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 659

Jim,  Actually if you're serious and if I don't have to go alone, it sounds like a plan.  And maybe my "youthful" appearance along with some well-spoken, prepared statements could be a help, not a hindrance.  And two heads are infinitely better than one!  Send me an email (voicelady at mymailstation.com) and maybe we could actually set something up.
--------------------------------------------------------------
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--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> On Thu, 31 August 2000, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> 
> > And, thanks to Voicelady for her support!!  Now, if I could just  persuade Voicelady & our other NY'ers to go meet face to face with Mr. 
McGrath . .  .
> 
> Actually I would, if there weren't a slight problem with my  appearance.  Not that there's anything wrong with me, but I'm quite  petite and I also look like I'm about half my age.  It's often quite  frustrating, because strangers tend to patronize me and not take me  seriously.  Acting-wise, it's great, because I get all those teenager  parts!  However in real life, well, you get my point... <VBG>
> 
> voicelady
> 
----I'm an hour outside of NYC, I'm older and I'm tall.  We could make 
a team.  Especially if a few others in the area came along.  Actually  I think letter writing is the strongest suit, especially letters  pointing out how ridiculous the Times will look in years to come when  the HP series comes into its own and is recognized for the phenomenon  it is.  But if anyone gets anything together in the way of a  face-to-face I will be happy to add my presence.

Jim 

> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> This email message was sent via MailStation(tm) - a trademark 
> of CIDCO Incorporated.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 00:50:25 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:50:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Moments & Various Things
References: <id.31082000201655.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <39AEFD51.5DECE80E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 660

Hi --

voicelady wrote:

> Jim,  Actually if you're serious and if I don't have to go alone, it
> sounds like a plan.  And maybe my "youthful" appearance along with
> some well-spoken, prepared statements could be a help, not a
> hindrance.  And two heads are infinitely better than one!  Send me an
> email (voicelady at mymailstation.com) and maybe we could actually set
> something up.

Oh, I'll be jumping up & down if you guys do this!  That would be SO
great!  I'll help anyway I can (as I'm sure you know).  <huge delighted
grin all over face>

Voicelady -- I'm short & still look fairly young, although no longer so
young that I look half my age necessarily.  <g>  (I did notice recently
that Bryce still gets carded now & again but it's been ages since I
was!).  Oh well.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep  1 01:02:33 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 18:02:33 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <8omqc6+mj8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKENDCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 661

There was also the wonderful actress Hermione Baddeley, who appeared in such
movies as "Mary Poppins" and "The Unsinkable Molly Brown".  I think also
that ONE of these two (Gingold or Baddeley) appeared in the US sitcom
"Bewitched"?



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Hohman [mailto:jickndim at garden.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 4:40 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation

Doesn't anybody in this group remember Hermione Gingold a British
actress who had a major supporting role in 'Gigi' and well as the
Broadway musical of "A Little Night Music" by Stephan Sondheim???
She was as big in the US as in the UK.  Nobody had trouble with
Hur-MY-oh-nee way back then in the good old days.

Jim





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 01:07:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:07:29 -0400
Subject: Fw: Yahoo! welcomes eGroups Moderators
Message-ID: <001001c013b1$00785880$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 662


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <egroups-moderator-news-help at egroups.com>
To: <egroups-moderator-news at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:29 PM
Subject: Yahoo! welcomes eGroups Moderators


> Yahoo! has completed its acquisition of eGroups, and we're happy to
> officially welcome you to the Yahoo! family. You can learn more about
> the completion of the deal by reading our press release
> (http://www.egroups.com/local/pr/pr083100.html). There is a great deal
> of work ahead as we work to bring eGroups into the Yahoo!  network of
> services, but we're very excited about the future.
> 
> We hope you'll be celebrating with us as we begin expanding our
> ability to help people collaborate, exchange ideas, and build
> relationships around the world.
> 
> Although we're busy working on future plans, it's important to know
> that there will be no immediate changes to either the eGroups or
> Yahoo! Clubs services. All of the current features, policies, and
> services will continue to be supported.
> 
> Users will continue to be governed by the Terms of Service they
> initially agreed to upon registering for either service. In other
> words, the eGroups Terms of Service will continue to apply to eGroups
> users.
> 
> Short term, we'll continue planning for the integrated service, while
> trying our best to anticipate any major issues that might arise. We
> will share news on our progress in the merger discussion group
> (http://www.egroups.com/group/merger), and we encourage you to
> participate in the dialogue by voicing your concerns.
> 
> We understand there will be a lot of questions regarding this
> integration and we'll try to answer them all as best we can. We've
> also created a Help Center (http://help.yahoo.com/help/egroups) on
> Yahoo! to serve as a home for commonly asked questions.
> 
> Thanks for your patience, encouragement, and feedback throughout this
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> 
> All the best,
> 
>    The folks from eGroups and Yahoo!
> 
> 
> 


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 01:23:54 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:23:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mini-me in HP movie
References: <8oms4q+7j7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c013b3$4ee6dbc0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 663

Am I experiencing momentary forgetfulness?  Where is there a ghoul in the first Book?  I know of trolls, ghosts, and a dragon...?

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kaitlin 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 8:10 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mini-me in HP movie



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hey folks, I know I'm posting unusually often for someone on 
  sabbatical, but I couldn't help it.  I have had a lot of free time at 
  work recently.
  I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of the 
  Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie.  So much 
  for casting only British unknowns...
  ~Kaitlin


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 01:27:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:27:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKENDCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c013b3$cc6ad100$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 664

Katie Nana?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 9:02 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  There was also the wonderful actress Hermione Baddeley, who appeared in such
  movies as "Mary Poppins" and "The Unsinkable Molly Brown".  I think also
  that ONE of these two (Gingold or Baddeley) appeared in the US sitcom
  "Bewitched"?



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jim Hohman [mailto:jickndim at garden.net]
  Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 4:40 PM
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation

  Doesn't anybody in this group remember Hermione Gingold a British
  actress who had a major supporting role in 'Gigi' and well as the
  Broadway musical of "A Little Night Music" by Stephan Sondheim???
  She was as big in the US as in the UK.  Nobody had trouble with
  Hur-MY-oh-nee way back then in the good old days.

  Jim



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  1 02:18:21 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 02:18:21 -0000
Subject: DAEMON message
Message-ID: <8on3ld+5dst@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 665

I have had a look at the Mailer-Daemon reply, and I am now virtually 
certian that it is indeed a full mailbox or similar problem with the 
email-address Dee identified earlier.  The reason the member is not 
showing as 'bouncing' (messages, not ferrets) to the Moderators is
that 
the error messages bypass egroups and are sent straight to the "from" 
address on each message, which shows as the person who originates a 
message, not egroups .  So if i send a message to the list, I get the 
notice back from that mailbox, and egroups never knows there is a 
problem with that subscriber.

I recommend the Moderators place that member on NoMail/Web Only
status 
until he/she/it/they discover they are not getting any mail, and ask 
about it.  Alternately the address could be placed on Digest mode  - 
which shows as the group ID (hpforgrownups at egroups.com) in the 'from' 
field in the Digest messages, and which SHOULD trigger a 'bounce' 
detector at egroups. 

-Brooks





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 02:33:53 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 02:33:53 -0000
Subject: Character summary: Ludovic Bagman
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEHLCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8on4ih+pqld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 666

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:

> ========================================
> The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie 
> outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and
> to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it 
> and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent 
> press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes.
> We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and  we dance. Our
> talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property
> of other men.  We are intellectual prostitutes.
> 
> ~ John Swinton,
> the Chief of Staff for the New York Times, 1953

Nonetheless, the Washington POST published the Pentagon Papers.




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 02:43:18 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:43:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DAEMON message
References: <8on3ld+5dst@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39AF17C6.45FE89B5@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 667

Hi --

Brooks R wrote:

> I have had a look at the Mailer-Daemon reply, and I am now virtually
> certian that it is indeed a full mailbox or similar problem with the
> email-address Dee identified earlier.  The reason the member is not
> showing as 'bouncing' (messages, not ferrets) to the Moderators is
> that the error messages bypass egroups and are sent straight to the
> "from" address on each message, which shows as the person who
> originates a message, not egroups .
>
> I recommend the Moderators place that member on NoMail/Web Only
> status until he/she/it/they discover they are not getting any mail,
> and ask about it.  Alternately the address could be placed on Digest
> mode  -
> which shows as the group ID (hpforgrownups at egroups.com) in the 'from'
> field in the Digest messages, and which SHOULD trigger a 'bounce'
> detector at egroups.
>

I think this makes sense, but I haven't received any DAEMON messages
today.  I got 3 or 4 yesterday -- everytime I posted to this group.
But, none so far today.  Is anyone else still having problems with this
or has the problem perhaps been fixed?  If it's not fixed, I can take
the action Brooks suggests (changing that person to webview only).
Although, I need a reminder of which email address is the culprit.

Thanks --

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Sep  1 03:04:44 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:04:44 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation guide online
In-Reply-To: <00be01c013a0$e6f9ce80$8466063e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8on6cc+irkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 668

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> I had a bizarre thought about this today - what if the French 
pronounciation is pretention on the part of Voldemort, and all the 
good guys call him Voldemort (those that are brave enough to say it, 
that is) and all the black hats call him Voldemore, pandering to his 
vanity.  

Reminds me of Young Frankentein:  "It's Frankensteen! Not 
Frankenstine!"  (Phonetically spelled for effect)


Trina




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Sep  1 03:12:47 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:12:47 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <006c01c013b3$cc6ad100$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8on6rf+cemt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 669

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Katie Nana?


Katie Nana was played by Elsa Lancaster aka Bride of Frankenstein.

I have no idea who Hermione Baddely is.

Trina (who, despite swearing off Frankenstein after having to read it 
3 separate times in 3 different college courses, has managed to 
mention him twice in one day!)




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  1 04:11:49 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:11:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
Message-ID: <v02140b80b5d4dcda45b1@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 670

>
>Doesn't anybody in this group remember Hermione Gingold a British
>actress who had a major supporting role in 'Gigi' and well as the
>Broadway musical of "A Little Night Music" by Stephan Sondheim???
>She was as big in the US as in the UK.  Nobody had trouble with
>Hur-MY-oh-nee way back then in the good old days.
>
>Jim
>
That's how I knew how to pronounce Hermione, because of Ms. Gingold...also
very well known from her role as Mrs. Shin in "The Music Man."

"And naturally, I'm reticent...oh yes!  I'm reticent!"

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Sep  1 03:28:25 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:28:25 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <v02140b80b5d4dcda45b1@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8on7op+m45c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 671

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> That's how I knew how to pronounce Hermione, because of Ms. 
Gingold...also very well known from her role as Mrs. Shin in "The 
Music Man."
> 
> "And naturally, I'm reticent...oh yes!  I'm reticent!"
> 
> Lori


Me, too, Lori. One of my favorite movies..."Wonderful, Barney, 
wonderful.."

And while we're on the subject of Ms. Granger's name... I vowed to 
stay above the fray, but apparently the subject is as a veela song to 
me...

I haven't heard the HP tapes by either Jim Dale or Stephen Fry, 
however, as one who deals with articulation on a daily basis (I'm a 
speech therapist y'all) I must weigh in with my own opinion.  I 
peronally think it's more of a dialect difference: a)"Her-mahn-nee" 
vs b)"Her-my-oh-nee" If you say b)version really fast, it sounds like 
a)version.
 
Neither is wrong.  It is just a difference.  And differences should 
be celebrated.(Required social commentary)

Trina (Treena, in case you're wondering)






From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 03:33:16 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:33:16 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <8omqc6+mj8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8on81s+7baj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 672

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
> Doesn't anybody in this group remember Hermione Gingold a British 
> actress who had a major supporting role in 'Gigi' and well as the 
> Broadway musical of "A Little Night Music" by Stephan Sondheim??? 
> She was as big in the US as in the UK.  Nobody had trouble with 
> Hur-MY-oh-nee way back then in the good old days.
> 
> Jim

This was EXACTLY my response to all the How do you pronounce Hermione 
postings.  I guess you and I, Jim, are a little, er, older than most 
of the How to Pronounce Questioners.  (Not that we are old farts or 
anything like that, though, right?)

- Joywitch




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep  1 03:45:56 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:45:56 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
In-Reply-To: <8oms4q+7j7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8on8pk+rav9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 673

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kaitlin " <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:
> I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of the 
> Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie.  So 
much 
> for casting only British unknowns...

Hmm, I always thought that ghouls were tall and skeletally thin.  
Don't know why, just my impression of them.

Vicki




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep  1 03:50:53 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 03:50:53 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation guide online
In-Reply-To: <8on6cc+irkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8on92t+hlj7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 674

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
> wrote:
> > I had a bizarre thought about this today - what if the French 
> pronounciation is pretention on the part of Voldemort, and all the 
> good guys call him Voldemort (those that are brave enough to say 
it, > that is) and all the black hats call him Voldemore, pandering 
to his > vanity.  


Except that he invented the name for himself out of his previous 
muggle name (Tom Darvolo Riddle, so he can pronounce it any way that 
he wants to.

vicki




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 03:55:05 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:55:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DAEMON message
References: <8on3ld+5dst@eGroups.com> <39AF17C6.45FE89B5@hic.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c013c8$6a9042c0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 675

Penny,
I think Melanie figured out the problem, and fixed it.  She sent out an email earlier (this morning) about it... well, a post.  What do you call these things, emails, or posts?  I am sending and receiving emails...  sighs.

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 04:25:15 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:25:15 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 Summary: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <200008290316.e7T3Gpw11357@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8onb3b+r44o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 676

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:
<kathleen at c...> wrote:
> > - thus securing Fred and George a nice payoff for their risky 
> > wager in the last chapter.
> 
> My question is:  How on earth did George and Fred predict such an
> odd event? Knowing them, there was more to this than luck.  
> Spending some time with Professor Trelawney, perhaps?

Personally, I think they made their prediction based on their 
knowledge of all the players on both sides and how they had performed 
in the earlier matches. And the twins have never seemed to me to be 
averse to taking an occasional risk... 




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 04:33:41 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 00:33:41 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione pronunciation
Message-ID: <1e.a336a1c.26e08ba6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 677

Hermione, in Greek mythology, was the only daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus, king of Sparta. Although she was betrothed to Orestes, king of Mycenae, after the Trojan War Hermione married Neoptolemus, the son of the Greek hero Achilles. Orestes later killed Neoptolemus and became Hermione's second husband. 

There was a character named Hermione in the Shakespearean tragedy/comedy/romance "The Winter's Tale". It was probably written in 1611. The first three acts deal with the jealousy of King Leontes and his persecution of his queen, Hermione. His passion brings about her supposed death and the abandonment of her infant daughter. The fourth act, set 16 years later, relates the courtship of this daughter, Perdita, by Prince Florizel of Bohemia, and the flight of the young couple to the kingdom of Leontes. There, in the last act, Perdita is recognized as Leontes's lost child. To make his happiness complete, a statue of his queen comes to life, and Hermione herself forgives him and embraces Perdita. 

Actress Hermione Baddeley was in an episode of "Bewitched". 

In Farenhiet 451, there is a man named Granger, who has a photographic memory that he uses only for memorizing books. 

"Granger" is the first name of a character in a book called "Frindle". Miss Granger is a prim and proper person, who always forces people to obey the rules and play by them. 


More random name meanings at http://www.cornishpixie.cjb.net

Ellie


In a message dated Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:28:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Trina " <lj2d30 at gateway.net> writes:

<< > That's how I knew how to pronounce Hermione, because of Ms. 
Gingold...also very well known from her role as Mrs. Shin in "The 
Music Man."
> 
> "And naturally, I'm reticent...oh yes!  I'm reticent!"
> 
> Lori


Me, too, Lori. One of my favorite movies..."Wonderful, Barney, 
wonderful.."

And while we're on the subject of Ms. Granger's name... I vowed to 
stay above the fray, but apparently the subject is as a veela song to 
me...

I haven't heard the HP tapes by either Jim Dale or Stephen Fry, 
however, as one who deals with articulation on a daily basis (I'm a 
speech therapist y'all) I must weigh in with my own opinion.  I 
peronally think it's more of a dialect difference: a)"Her-mahn-nee" 
vs b)"Her-my-oh-nee" If you say b)version really fast, it sounds like 
a)version.
 
Neither is wrong.  It is just a difference.  And differences should 
be celebrated.(Required social commentary)

Trina (Treena, in case you're wondering)




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 04:37:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:37:26 -0000
Subject: Back to School Wishes for All!
In-Reply-To: <8ohkt2+q2eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8onbq6+n2t7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 678

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" wrote:
> 
> Watch me as I leap into the air with joy at the prospect of another 
> year being dubbed "the brainy one", "the smart girl", and "the 
> Misery Chick" (oh, how I would love to kill the person who wrote 
> that line). 

They call you 'the brainy one' and 'the smart girl' because you ARE 
brainy and smart. Why do they call you 'the Misery Chick'? Is it from 
some song or TV show that is since my time? A couple months ago, I 
stumbled (while Web-searching for something else) on a Web site of 
"What to Name the Baby for Goths" on which Misery was one of the 
suggested names (in fact, Agony, Chaos, Despair, and Misery were 
suggested as nice matching names for anyone planning to have four 
children == as a person who doesn't like children, I find those names 
an excessively accurate description of life with children!)

>  But I'm seriously doubting my classes' ability to 
> differentiate between nouns and verbs. 

The difference between nouns and verbs is an arbitrary artifact of 
Indo-European languages. It doesn't exist as such in Semitic 
languages, and in fact it is a little weak in English: is 'wave' a 
noun or a verb? How about 'smile'? How about 'interface'?

Hang in there! It is a known fact that life gets better after high 
school! Life gets even better after college! Look at me: I'm 42 now, 
with credit-card balance problems and an ever-increasing 
collection of physical aches and pains (I didn't say age was 
PERFECT) and I wouldn't go back to High School for fifty million 
dollars!




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  1 04:45:19 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:45:19 -0500
Subject: Katie Nana
References: <967779202.22967@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39AF3461.85D90FB0@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 679

> Katie Nana was played by Elsa Lancaster aka Bride of Frankenstein.

LanCHESter.



From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 04:56:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:56:05 -0000
Subject: Yearbooks, Neville, Quidditch, Ireland, James
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEJGCHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8onct5+1isp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 680

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" wrote:

> The one that I have just got from college was done more for contact 
> details. We then included a little bit about ourselves and a 
> 'friend' got to write a small bit about us.

I have been told that in American colleges, those are called 'pig 
books' and that fraternities keep a collection of pig books from all 
local colleges and frat brothers who date a girl write comments about 
her on her photo in her class's pig book, such as hints on what 
works to seduce her.
> 
> Catlady wrote: 
> > "But if Hogwarts is the only wizarding school for all the British
> > Isles (more or less equivalent to the political entities UK and 
> > Ireland), all the members of the winning Irish National Team must 
> > have gone to Hogwarts."
> The British Isles is not UK and Ireland. The British Isles is 
> England, Scotland, Wales and some islands. The UK is the British
> Isles and Northern Island, and possibly some more small islands.
> Maybe JKR meant that Hogwarts is the school for the UK and there is
> a separate one for Ireland.

JKR said in an interview that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school 
for students from the UK and Ireland. I assume that she was referring 
to the political entities United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland, 
which I believe combine to cover the physical geography called the 
islands of Britain and Ireland, plus some associated small isles. If 
the two big and numerous small islands are not collectively referred 
to as the British Isles (as in George Orwell's example of a book 
whose title in French was Les oiseaux europeenes and in English it 
was Birds of Europe and the British Isles), please educate me as to 
what they can be called collectively.

I find it very difficult to believe that the wizard folk allow their 
political or national arrangements to be changed by mere Muggles 
changing the position of Muggle political borders, so I hate to refer 
to wizard locations as UK or Republic of Ireland. I would rather 
specify which island!

I had previously believed that Hogwarts was the wizarding school for 
the whole island of Britain (and associated smaller isles), which 
would itself cover the three National Teams of England, Scotland, and 
Wales (and be pretty much the same as the UK minus Northern Ireland). 
So I was disappointed that she specified Ireland. I would have 
preferred there to be another wizarding school for the whole island 
of Ireland, 32 counties, which could if they wished have separate 
National Teams for the ancient Five Quarters of Ireland. 





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  1 05:59:36 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 00:59:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yearbooks, Neville, Quidditch, Ireland, James
Message-ID: <v02140b88b5d4f61d353d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 681

>
>--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" wrote:
>
>> The one that I have just got from college was done more for contact
>> details. We then included a little bit about ourselves and a
>> 'friend' got to write a small bit about us.
>
>I have been told that in American colleges, those are called 'pig
>books' and that fraternities keep a collection of pig books from all
>local colleges and frat brothers who date a girl write comments about
>her on her photo in her class's pig book, such as hints on what
>works to seduce her.

I have never heard of this, and I attend the largest university in the
country!  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:03:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:03:26 -0000
Subject: Ludo Bagman's name
In-Reply-To: <8ojutm+fb0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ondau+dp1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 682

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
> Ludo suggests to me Luddite or ludicrous.

'Ludicrous' is from the Latin 'ludo', 'game' or 'play'. Luddite, a 
person who opposes new technology, is named after some weavers who 
were put out of work by automated looms in the Industrial 
Revolution, and responded by the destroying the automated looms. It 
was a labor action. People said that the saboteurs ('sabotage' is 
named after 'sabot', French for a wooden clog shoe, meaning to 
destroy machinery by throwing a wood shoe into it, which was a 
similar labor action) were followers of one Ned Ludd or Captain Nudd.
There is no evidence that any such person ever existed, but I find it 
interesting that LLUDD Llawarent (Silverhand) was the name of Welsh 
(i.e. British) kind of the gods. You'll find him in the Mabinogion, 
and his name is related to Nudd as in Gwyn ap Nudd king of fairies, 
Nuadhu Argetlam (Silverhand) of the Irish myths, and Nodens of Gaul.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:07:22 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:07:22 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation guide online
In-Reply-To: <000401c01330$b55cf520$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8ondia+mbh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 683

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:

>...so his name means either 'Flight from Death' or 'Flight of Death'

with some hint of also meaning 'theft of death'. A famous pun on the 
French word 'vol' was when Napoleon confiscated the estates of 
surviving nobles of the pre-Revolutionary regime. One of the 
guys whose estate was confiscated said: "C'est le premier vol de 
l'aigle', which normally means 'it is the first flight of the 
eagle' but in this case 'vol' was to be understood as 'theft'.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:15:04 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:15:04 -0000
Subject: Ludo Bagman's name
In-Reply-To: <8olbea+q5mp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8one0o+a8fl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 684

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Pam Scruton" <Pam at b...> wrote:

> I thought that Ludo would be short for Ludovic from the Latin
> 'victor ludorum' winner of the games.

I think JKR may have had that Latin in mind when she named him. 
However, I believe that Ludovic, like Ludwig and Louis and Clovis, 
are all forms of the name Chlothovachus (I erroneously wrote 
Chlothovicus in a previous post) which was the name of Clovis the 
Frank in his own language.

> Ludo is also a board game which will be familiar to most British
> children at least - is it not a game played in the US also?

I don't recall ever having heard of it before the GoF discussions 
began. I have HEARD of a game called Lotto or Lottery Tickets (and I 
don't mean the Lotto 'game' in the California Lottery) but the only 
thing I've ever SEEN of such a name is Loteria: a bingo-like 
game with pictures that can be purchased in Mexican-import stores.
> 
> A bagman, to me anyway, would be one of two things - a tramp or
> hobo who carries all his worldly possession in a bag,

'swagman' in Waltzing Matilda!

> somebody who works for the President of the US who carries the 
> briefcase around containing the wherewithal to start total global
> thermonuclear war. 

The things I didn't know before joining HP e-mail-lists!





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:18:14 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:18:14 -0000
Subject: Fanfic question
In-Reply-To: <200008311433.e7VEX9v17025@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8one6m+kp4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 685

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> (list of cliches, including:)
> Snape and McGonagall fall in love

McGonagall is at least one generation older than Snape.





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:20:36 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:20:36 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
In-Reply-To: <8oms4q+7j7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oneb4+780a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 686

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kaitlin " <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:

> I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of the 
> Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie.

The only ghoul I recall is the one who lives in the Weasley's attic. 
He howls in an annoying manner and bangs on the pipes, but I do not 
recall that he ever makes a visual appearance or has any words in his 
lines.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 05:22:28 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 05:22:28 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <8on81s+7baj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oneek+1pfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 687

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> I guess you and I, Jim, are a little, er, older than most 
> of the How to Pronounce Questioners.  (Not that we are old farts
> or anything like that, though, right?)

Joywitch! Your Yahoo profile said you were 999 years old!




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 06:57:09 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 07:57:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901065709.007126a8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 688

>
>There was also the wonderful actress Hermione Baddeley, who appeared in such
>movies as "Mary Poppins" and "The Unsinkable Molly Brown".  I think also
>that ONE of these two (Gingold or Baddeley) appeared in the US sitcom
>"Bewitched"?

Hermione Baddeley also played Mrs Bridges, the cook in "Upstairs Downstairs".  

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  1 08:11:15 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 03:11:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ludo Bagman's name
Message-ID: <v02140b89b5d515077888@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 689


I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the character of Ludo from Labyrinth,
the huge and dimwitted but good-hearted beastie.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 07:51:56 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 08:51:56 +0100
Subject: UK, Ireland - the boring details (OT)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901075156.006f5184@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 690

>> Catlady wrote: 

>JKR said in an interview that Hogwarts is the only wizarding school 
>for students from the UK and Ireland. I assume that she was referring 
>to the political entities United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland, 
>which I believe combine to cover the physical geography called the 
>islands of Britain and Ireland, plus some associated small isles. If 
>the two big and numerous small islands are not collectively referred 
>to as the British Isles (as in George Orwell's example of a book 
>whose title in French was Les oiseaux europeenes and in English it 
>was Birds of Europe and the British Isles), please educate me as to 
>what they can be called collectively.

****

I wish I could claim to know all the minor details listed below, but I admit
to having checked some points.  Most British people wouldn't know most of
these distinctions and would confuse GB and UK and the associations with
Ireland without thinking. 

Apologies, congratulations and sympathy to those of you who did know all this:-

- 'Great Britain' has referred to the union of England, Scotland and Wales
since 1707.  The term excludes Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man and the
Channel Islands.

- 'Britain' is a more informal term with no official status, and can
sometimes include Northern Ireland (but because no one has defined what it
means, hey, put France and China in there if you like).

- 'The British Isles' is a geographical term encompassing Great Britain,
Northern Ireland and all the surrounding isles, including the aforementioned
ones and Scottish islands, such as the Shetlands, but excluding the Republic
of Ireland.

- 'The United Kingdom is a political term, as Simon said, shorthand for 'The
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.  It does not usually
include the smaller islands.

- 'England' is England.  It's a common mistake among some Americans (in my
experience) to refer to Great Britain or the UK as 'England'.  If you do
this, expect to be glared at by assorted Welsh and Scottish people, not to
mention the Manx islanders and other non-English entities.

- 'The Republic of Ireland (or Eire)' is a separate country and has nothing
to do with the UK, Great Britain, British Isles etc.  The fact that Northern
Ireland is part of the Irish land mass, but politically involved with the
UK, is the reason for the troubles in Northern Ireland.

- 'Ireland' can be used to include Eire and Northern Ireland.

- 'The European Union' includes all of the above, plus the other 14 members
of the economic and political union of European states.  

'Europe or Western Europe' includes the European Union and a number of other
countries.  People would normally say 'mainland Europe' or 'Continental
Europe' to define the main land mass and exclude the UK, Ireland and
Scandinavia.

- 'Lewisham' is the region where I live.  It is a component of London,
England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, the British Isles, the European
Union, Europe, the World, the Earth, the Solar System, the Milky Way, the
Universe.

Aren't you all bored now?

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 07:57:06 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 08:57:06 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione pronunciation
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901075706.00731f7c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 691

At 07:57 09/01/2000 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>
>>There was also the wonderful actress Hermione Baddeley, who appeared in such
>>movies as "Mary Poppins" and "The Unsinkable Molly Brown".  I think also
>>that ONE of these two (Gingold or Baddeley) appeared in the US sitcom
>>"Bewitched"?
>
>Hermione Baddeley also played Mrs Bridges, the cook in "Upstairs Downstairs".  
>
>Neil

Actually, that may have been her sister, Angela Baddeley.  Ignore me.

Neil, arguing with himself, now.

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From jayana at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 11:30:04 2000
From: jayana at yahoo.com (jayana at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:30:04 -0000
Subject: Yearbooks, Neville, Quidditch, Ireland, James
In-Reply-To: <v02140b88b5d4f61d353d@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8oo3vs+clu5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 692


> >I have been told that in American colleges, those are called 'pig
> >books' and that fraternities keep a collection of pig books from 
all
> >local colleges and frat brothers who date a girl write comments 
about
> >her on her photo in her class's pig book, such as hints on what
> >works to seduce her.
> 
> I have never heard of this, and I attend the largest university in 
the
> country!  :-)
> 
> Lori
> 

I haven't heard of this either, at least in college, although in 
middle school we had something similar to it; does anyone remember 
'slam books' where everyone would get a notebook, write a bunch of 
categories and vote for who in the class/group/school best fit them, 
or had a page for each person and people would swap books and write 
their opinions of the peron?  Not always the nicest of activities and 
I'm surprised a college would resort to it....wonder if Hogwarts has 
had/will have anything like that in the future?





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep  1 11:35:46 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 06:35:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mini-me in HP movie
References: <8on8pk+rav9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39AF9492.B96C846D@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 693



Vicki Merriman wrote:

>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kaitlin " <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:
> > I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of the
> > Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie.  So
> much
> > for casting only British unknowns...
>
> Hmm, I always thought that ghouls were tall and skeletally thin.
> Don't know why, just my impression of them.
>
> Vicki

Hogwarts is an equal-opportunity ghoul employer.

Peg




From jickndim at garden.net  Fri Sep  1 12:51:54 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 12:51:54 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
In-Reply-To: <39AF9492.B96C846D@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8oo8pa+sqms@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 694

 I think that Verne Troyer "Mini-me" would make a great Peeves.  I 
wonder if that is the role they are talking about but just didn't 
understand the difference between gouls and poltergeists.  Those 
Hollywood types, Hrmph!

Jim




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 14:09:45 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:09:45 -0000
Subject: yearbooks
Message-ID: <8oodb9+rnb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 695

> >--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" wrote:
> >
> >> The one that I have just got from college was done more for 
contact
> >> details. We then included a little bit about ourselves and a
> >> 'friend' got to write a small bit about us.
> >
> >I have been told that in American colleges, those are called 'pig
> >books' and that fraternities keep a collection of pig books from 
all
> >local colleges and frat brothers who date a girl write comments 
about
> >her on her photo in her class's pig book, such as hints on what
> >works to seduce her.
> 
> I have never heard of this, and I attend the largest university in 
the
> country!  :-)
> 
At my college, freshman year (of course, this was long ago, in 1988), 
the Pig Book was the photo album that showed all the "high school 
yearbook" photos of the incoming freshman and the high schools they 
came from - you could look thru it before classes started to see what 
your roommate looked like, and I and some of the girls on my floor 
flipped thru it a few times to see what cute guys were around, but it 
would be pretty useless for the purpose intimated above, because the 
photos were really small & there would've been no room to write any 
extensive comments.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 14:25:38 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:25:38 -0000
Subject: yearbooks
In-Reply-To: <8oodb9+rnb1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ooe92+csfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 696

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> At my college, freshman year (of course, this was long ago, in 
1988), > the Pig Book was the photo album that showed all the "high 
school > yearbook" photos of the incoming freshman and the high 
schools they > came from - you could look thru it before classes 
started to see what > your roommate looked like, and I and some of 
the girls on my floor > flipped thru it a few times to see what cute 
guys were around, but it > would be pretty useless for the purpose 
intimated above, because the > photos were really small & there 
would've been no room to write any > extensive comments.


Heidi, we had something exactly like what you described when I began 
college just yesterday (in 1995).  It wasn't called a Pig Book, just 
the "New Student Record" and also listed hometown, major, and 
interests next to the picture.  

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 14:29:57 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:29:57 -0000
Subject: the books in German
Message-ID: <8ooeh5+i908@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 697

An article at http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12936.html 
discusses the impatience of german fans of the book.

As the article says:

"This delay was too much for Potter fans, who promptly started 
translating chapters and posting the results on the Internet. The 
first six were up on www.harry-auf-deutsch.de, nine more are on their 
way and the remaining 22 have been distributed to university students 
for translation."

Guys - remember, downloading chapters from that site is a Copyright 
Violation - don't do it! 







From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 14:42:24 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:42:24 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation (and brief Generation rant)
In-Reply-To: <8oneek+1pfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oof8g+laaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 698

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> > I guess you and I, Jim, are a little, er, older than most 
> > of the How to Pronounce Questioners.  (Not that we are old farts
> > or anything like that, though, right?)
> 
> Joywitch! Your Yahoo profile said you were 999 years old!

I noticed that too, Joywitch.  ;)

Actually, if it had not been for the real life Hermione I knew, I 
would have pronounced it correctly at first glance.  Most of those 
female mythological figures have names in which every syllable is 
pronounced and which end with the long e sound:  Antigone, Niobe, 
Persephone, Penelope, Aphrodite, Psyche, etc. all rhyme.  Might I add 
that my own first name is also Greek-derived and follows the same 
pattern.

But upon first introduction, this Hermione was very adamant about her 
name being pronounced Krum fashion.  She would correct you in this 
matter-of-fact voice:  "It's *Hermy-own*, thanks."  Keep in mind that 
at least one boomer named her, so I am guessing they were not 
familiar with the actress you've mentioned.

Since this particular Hermione is *exactly* like what HG would have 
been like if she had been Sorted into Ravenclaw (which is why I 
couldn't stand the character at first), I get a kick thinking about 
the fact that thanks to JKR Miss Perfection's name will forever be 
mispronounced.  Hee, hee, hee.

Speaking of age, I was recently informed that I'm too young to be Gen-
X.  My aunt and uncle, 32 and 35, informed me smugly at our last 
summer barbecue that anyone born after the Bicentennial is definitely 
Gen-Y.  Man, am I ever disappointed that I'm in the same lowly age 
bracket as the HP characters!  <vbg>

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 14:43:37 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:43:37 -0000
Subject: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
Message-ID: <8oofap+a3l1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 699

Warner threatens Harry Potter fan sites
By Graham Lea
Posted: 09/02/2000 at 12:22 GMT 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/9146.html


Warner Brothers is setting the attack dogs on Harry Potter fan Web 
sites. The media giant which has film rights to two Harry Potter 
books, is demanding that Web sites such as harrypotterisawizard.co.uk 
transfer their names to the company. More than 50 Web sites are 
devoted to JK Rowling and her blockbusting Harry Potter books for 
children. But there is little if any evidence of any attempts by the 
site operators to deceive or pass themselves off as the official 
Harry Potter experience, merchandising and all. 
Bloomsbury, Rowling's publisher, confirmed that Warner has 
merchandising rights to the Harry Potter books. This isn't the first 
company which has attempted to round up fan site URLs; other examples 
include Paramount, with Star Trek, the BBC, with Teletubbies, and 
Porsche, with -- er -- Porsche. 
By stomping on the Harry Potter fan sites, Warner may succeed in 
stopping unofficial merchandise sales. The company has the money and 
the firepower to beat the Harry Potter fan sites into submission. 
However, it appears unlikely that Warner can insist on domain name 
transfer, although it could prevail in court if it has the requisite 
intellectual property rights. But, as with the character Jeeves, the 
only protection is for illustrations, since there can be no valid 
copyright in the name of a character. So far Warner has done nothing 
about a Harry Potter Web site other than to direct those who hit 
harrypotter.net to its own consumer Web site. 
Since the purpose of fan sites is promotion, it seems particularly 
silly of Warner to decide against harnessing the enthusiasm, and to 
act in this way. Some Harry Potter fans accuse Warner of trying to 
limit the dissemination of adverse reviews of films, and they see 
putting clamps on Web sites as one way the film company is trying to 
do this. 
They hope that Jo Rowling, who has been informed about developments 
but has not yet reacted, will intervene and sponsor an official site. 
But she may have had to sign away all rights to a website and be 
unable to act. Film contracts are renowned to be some of the thickest 
in the lawyering business. London-based Bloomsbury told the The 
Register that it will re-launch its Web site and include more about 
Harry Potter later this year. Warner had not returned our call at 
press time




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:10:24 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:10:24 -0000
Subject: H/H Cliches (was Lori's Fanfic Question)
In-Reply-To: <200008311433.e7VEX9v17025@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8oogt0+iqid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 700

Been meaning to get to this.  Yes, I read fanfic--all genres, all 
ships, of all levels of writing ability, etc.  It was a summer 
entertainment even better than watching *Survivor*!

I'll just add to Kathleen's list: 
- Ginny confesses her love for Harry/Draco/Neville in her diary
- Harry dates Cho, who cheats on him, leading him to find true love 
in Hermione or Ginny, depending on the author's ship
- Ron, Hermione, and shooting stars (that one I don't get, but it's 
really common!)
- Harry Potter and Survivor (this has been done WAY too often--oh 
wait, once would have been way too often!)
- Snape dances to Britney Spears (also way too common--shudder)
- Snape and McGonagall fall in love
- Harry has a secret twin, also still alive
- Lavendar gives Hermione a makeover
- Hermione goes to another school dance and finds true love
==========
- A new girl (usually from America) plays matchmaker, and whoever 
isn't with Hermione ends up with her
- Hermione undergoes a complete personality change... I've seen her 
written as everything from CA valley girl airhead to school slut
- Harry undergoes a complete personality change, transforming from 
bumbling adolescent to Don Juan
- Plot?  What plot? (about 70% of the content of FFnet)
- *Badly* done stream of consciousness interspersed with bubble gum 
pop lyrics (Hermione identifies with Christina 
Aguilera's "Reflections" and Harry identifies with Britney 
Spears' "Lucky")
- Sirius' long-lost love child becomes an acquaintance of the Three
- Hermione is actually friends with Lavendar or Parvati
- None of the major plot elements are even *mentioned*... nothing of 
the upcoming war
- Major plot elements are horribly bungled, ending with a *horribly* 
written fight sequence... several of these have had me on the floor 
screaming with laughter
- Hermione commits suicide when Harry or Ron tells her they just want 
to be friends
- Hermione sacrifices her life for Harry, Lily-fashion
- Harry goes to live with Sirius, whose name has been cleared
- Harry (or Harry and Ron) goes to visit Hermione over the summer and 
sparks fly
- Hermione saves Harry from the Dark Side after he has joined forces 
with Voldemort
- Harry and Ron/Gred and Forge/other co-conspirator rescue Hermione 
from marrying someone else or being kidnapped by Voldemort
- HP characters visit fanfic writers at home and clarify their 
positions on recurring fanfic plot lines

That's about all I can remember for now... if I think of any more, 
I'll post them.

Forget "Spaceballs" and "Hot Shots".  HP fanfic... now *that's* 
entertainment.

(BTW, all you fanfic writers, this is just about the only plotline I 
haven't seen yet in anything with even a hint of romance:  no one 
likes Hermione and she is perfectly fine with that.  What an original 
idea!)

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:15:14 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:15:14 -0000
Subject: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
In-Reply-To: <8oofap+a3l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ooh62+nibb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 701

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Warner threatens Harry Potter fan sites
> By Graham Lea
> Posted: 09/02/2000 at 12:22 GMT 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/9146.html


Oh, no!  I hope this doesn't shut Jenna down... my students *love* 
her site and she's done so much for the fandom.  She needs some legal 
advice just in case.  Are any of our lawyers in contact with her.

Grr... Warner Brothers, you'd better remember who will *pay* for this 
movie... THE FANS.  Don't bite the hand that feeds you, baby.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:18:25 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:18:25 -0000
Subject: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
In-Reply-To: <8ooh62+nibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oohc1+5tui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 702

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
"Are any of our lawyers in contact with her."

Substitute a ? for the .

I know, I know... as I said in that gargantuan post the other 
day, "teachers make mistakes too".

Ebony AKA AngieJ (whose only spell/grammar checker are her fallible 
eyes)




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 15:19:11 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:19:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yearbooks, Neville, Quidditch, Ireland, James
References: <8oo3vs+clu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c01427$fc0a7e00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 703

I haven't heard of this either, at least in college, although in 
middle school we had something similar to it; does anyone remember 
'slam books' where everyone would get a notebook, write a bunch of 
categories and vote for who in the class/group/school best fit them, 
or had a page for each person and people would swap books and write 
their opinions of the peron?  Not always the nicest of activities and 
I'm surprised a college would resort to it....wonder if Hogwarts has 
had/will have anything like that in the future?

That's what it was called!  I couldn't recall; we used to do those in 5th grade (1977 for those who need it!) and I ran across my old beaten book, obscenities and all (always had at least one person in  class who had to go off in that direction).  I remember favorite song (for the majority) was Cum on Feel the Noize (although the spelling could have been wrong--5th graders spelling, I think they liked it for the title!), by Quiet Riot.

Wow.

Dee
(Thanks!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep  1 15:26:20 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:26:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H Cliches (was Lori's Fanfic Question)
Message-ID: <200009011530.e81FU9v00492@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 704

>- A new girl (usually from America) plays matchmaker, and whoever
>isn't with Hermione ends up with her


Great list Ebony! HOW on earth could I forgotten the new girl (usually a 
transfer student from America) cliche?

Kathy




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 15:41:02 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:41:02 -0500
Subject: Warner Brothers & Jenna's Site
References: <8ooh62+nibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39AFCE0E.D68DD8DF@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 705

Hi --

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> Oh, no!  I hope this doesn't shut Jenna down... my students *love*
> her site and she's done so much for the fandom.  She needs some legal
> advice just in case.  Are any of our lawyers in contact with her.

Heidi & I have both tried to contact her separately.  Neither of us has
ever gotten a reply from her, and it seems to both Heidi and me that
she's relying on what may turn out to not be such great legal advice.
If anyone has personal contact with Jenna, I would suggest that you let
her know that she really should consider getting another legal opinion.
Heidi & I are both dying to know what Stouffer's attorneys said to her a
month or so ago.  But, like I said, we've never gotten any response
(despite Heidi's offer for Jenna to call her collect at her office).  I
think Jenna is being short-sighted.

Mind you, I think Warner Brothers' is being even more short-sighted.
That's a really *stupid* publicity move, don't you think?  The true fans
have enough qualms about the movie as is without the movie studio
playing the Bad Guy with lots of money and stepping all over the little
fans everywhere.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 15:38:19 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:38:19 -0000
Subject: warner & jenna
Message-ID: <8ooihb+nqp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 706

Penny wrote

> Mind you, I think Warner Brothers' is being even more short-sighted.
> That's a really *stupid* publicity move, don't you think?  
> The true fans
> have enough qualms about the movie as is without the movie studio
> playing the Bad Guy with lots of money and stepping all over 
> the little
> fans everywhere.


I second everything penny said about jenna - and would love to talk 
to her about what the Stouffer camp said to her...

I think that if WB is going after fan sites, that's a very short 
sighted move - BUT if they are ONLY going after people who are 
selling "fake" HP merchandise like a clock I saw on Ebay once, or 
other things which are being marketed as official HParaphenalia, I'd 
have to agree with them. And given the law on trademarks & domain 
names, if they don't make an effort to obtain any domain names 
containing "harry potter" then they are putting their trademark 
rights at risk - as long as they don't go after the fan sites 
themselves (i.e. the content)




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:54:46 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:54:46 -0000
Subject: more fanfic cliches  
In-Reply-To: <8oogt0+iqid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oojg6+cuj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 707

I've added a few more at the bottom of this list.  

- Ginny confesses her love for Harry/Draco/Neville in her diary
- Harry dates Cho, who cheats on him, leading him to find true love 
in Hermione or Ginny, depending on the author's ship
- Ron, Hermione, and shooting stars (that one I don't get, but it's 
really common!)
- Harry Potter and Survivor (this has been done WAY too often--oh 
wait, once would have been way too often!)
- Snape dances to Britney Spears (also way too common--shudder)
- Snape and McGonagall fall in love
- Harry has a secret twin, also still alive
- Lavendar gives Hermione a makeover
- Hermione goes to another school dance and finds true love
==========
- A new girl (usually from America) plays matchmaker, and whoever 
isn't with Hermione ends up with her
- Hermione undergoes a complete personality change... I've seen her 
written as everything from CA valley girl airhead to school slut
- Harry undergoes a complete personality change, transforming from 
bumbling adolescent to Don Juan
- Plot? What plot? (about 70% of the content of FFnet)
- *Badly* done stream of consciousness interspersed with bubble gum 
pop lyrics (Hermione identifies with Christina 
Aguilera's "Reflections" and Harry identifies with Britney 
Spears' "Lucky")
- Sirius' long-lost love child becomes an acquaintance of the Three
- Hermione is actually friends with Lavendar or Parvati
- None of the major plot elements are even *mentioned*... nothing of 
the upcoming war
- Major plot elements are horribly bungled, ending with a *horribly* 
written fight sequence... several of these have had me on the floor 
screaming with laughter
- Hermione commits suicide when Harry or Ron tells her they just want 
to be friends
- Hermione sacrifices her life for Harry, Lily-fashion
- Harry goes to live with Sirius, whose name has been cleared
- Harry (or Harry and Ron) goes to visit Hermione over the summer and 
sparks fly
- Hermione saves Harry from the Dark Side after he has joined forces 
with Voldemort
- Harry and Ron/Gred and Forge/other co-conspirator rescue Hermione 
from marrying someone else or being kidnapped by Voldemort
- HP characters visit fanfic writers at home and clarify their 
positions on recurring fanfic plot lines
_____________

Okay, here are a few more.  I've seen just about all of the above 
many times, and am realising exactly why I only write MWPP fanfic.  

-Snape was in love with Lily at school, and the remnants of this love 
provoke him to behave in a uncharacteristically sweet and human way 
instead of being a pain in the neck.  
-Snape lost the person he loved (not necessarily Lily) and therefore 
becomes nasty and twisted.  
-Draco is secretly in love with Hermione, and this forces him to stop 
supporting Voldemort/kill himself/save her life.
-almost any story which ends in a character suicide.    
-a transfer/exchange student (usually female) arrives from America 
and charms everybody with her natural brilliance ... aka Mary Sue.  
-Dumbledore/Voldemort is actually Harry's grandfather.
-James and/or Lily appear to Harry in a dream with helpful advice.    

There is a discouragingly large number of clich?s on this list
now.  
On the bright side, I've seen some of these done really well, 
especially in humorous stories, so don't lose hope.  

~Blaise.            











From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 16:23:40 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:23:40 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <8oneek+1pfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ool6c+bgqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 708

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> > I guess you and I, Jim, are a little, er, older than most 
> > of the How to Pronounce Questioners.  (Not that we are old farts
> > or anything like that, though, right?)
> 
> Joywitch! Your Yahoo profile said you were 999 years old!

And I am feeling it lately, let me tell you....  However, my mental 
age remains at about 12 so I maintain that I am NOT an old fart




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  1 16:37:41 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:37:41 -0000
Subject: Why on earth....
Message-ID: <8oom0l+j0st@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 709

....are some of the various protections along the route to the 
Sorceror's/Philosopher's Stone, puzzles at all?

The Sphynx riddle in the maze in GoF fits in.  The competition SHOULD 
be a puzzle.  But in SS/PS, they are trying to protect something of 
great value and dangerous power.  So why use solvable puzzles?

Is this some inconvenient wizardly honor code?  To a SMALL extent it 
can be explained as a precaution, so someone else can retrieve the 
Stone in case something happens to Dumbledore.  That way some other 
smart good guy can get through them if needed.  It gave lots of 
nice quest/adventure/tension for the climax of the plot for Our 
Heroes.  

But why have puzzles that *bad guys can solve too*?

Think about it!

Fluffy is a reasonable guard - he can be diverted, the only puzzle if 
finding out how.

The snareweed also falls into the category of a perfectly reasonable 
trap.

The Troll too is a dumb guard, and the heroes, conveniently, do not 
have to face him anyway.

The Flying Keys are more of a stretch, but somewhat reasonable.  
Someone could be expected to try all of a large selection of keys 
until they find the right one, if they are just sitting there.  
Eventually even a clumsy wizard might be able to catch the right key.
 
OTOH, what if you made several keys  of different heads still fit,
but 
some of them lock the door more tightly, so that even if you find the
right key you may not know it because you need now to use it more than
once?  

But the chess game?  Why bother?  Why not just transfigure a set of 
statues or something into guards, with some kind of password 
programmed into them?

Similarly, why bother with the logic puzzle of the potions?
Just put a bunch of bottles in there and let someone take their 
chances!  The person who sets it up knows the correct ones; other
than that what does it matter?

On the other hand, Dumbledore is right about the Mirror of Erised. 
It does work nicely as a protection.  Although it is really not clear 
what kind of spell is used to get the stone hidden in it that way.  
Alternately, this may be a not-specific alternate power of the mirror 
itself - perhaps there is a spell to conceal something by placing it 
into a mirror's image, which after all might be a parallel universe.

So of all the protections, two of them seem quite inadequate against
a smart bad guy, and the Flying Key could almost certainly be caught 
eventually.  It seems like the puzzles are counterproductive as 
protections.

Brooks




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 16:42:34 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:42:34 -0000
Subject: Warner Brothers & Jenna's Site
In-Reply-To: <39AFCE0E.D68DD8DF@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8oom9q+hnbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 710

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Mind you, I think Warner Brothers' is being even more short-sighted.
> That's a really *stupid* publicity move, don't you think?  The true 
fans
> have enough qualms about the movie as is without the movie studio
> playing the Bad Guy with lots of money and stepping all over the 
little
> fans everywhere.

[Rant alert]
[Rant alert]
[Rant alert]

<rant/>
I also find the WB attempt to shut down HP-related websites very 
disturbing.  If they persist and actually manage to shut down some 
websites (rather than just stopping merchandise sales thru those 
websites) I think we (collectively, The HP for Grownups group) should 
write to WB threatening to yell, scream, boycott, publicize and 
generally make a big stink about WBs harrassment of HP fans.  Of 
course it hasnt come to that yet, but it might.  This sort of 
irresponsible corporate behavior really pisses me off.  They get huge 
amounts of free publicity from us - I bet that practically every HP 
website and group has links to the WB store - and then they treat us 
like crap.  I often wonder about how these men (yeh, I know, women 
too, but in reality its mostly men) live with themselves; they run 
their corporations like feudal land barons - death to any peasant who 
gets in their way.
</rant>




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  1 18:14:46 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:14:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H Cliches (was Lori's Fanfic Question)
Message-ID: <v02140b8cb5d5a21a9dbe@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 711


>That's about all I can remember for now... if I think of any more,
>I'll post them.
>
>Forget "Spaceballs" and "Hot Shots".  HP fanfic... now *that's*
>entertainment.
>
>(BTW, all you fanfic writers, this is just about the only plotline I
>haven't seen yet in anything with even a hint of romance:  no one
>likes Hermione and she is perfectly fine with that.  What an original
>idea!)
>
Well, that's *kind* of how PoU started out...though she was dating GER-ald.

>Ebony AKA AngieJ

Ebony, thanks for the great list!  This will come in very handy.

I'll tell you why I want it...I'm planning to later write a shortish
humorous installment in my series in which Laura Chant finds herself in a
parallel universe that's entirely rules by fanfiction cliches, and she's
very confused.  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  1 18:16:11 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:16:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H Cliches (was Lori's Fanfic Question)
Message-ID: <v02140b8db5d5a2c9c6cb@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 712

>
>>- A new girl (usually from America) plays matchmaker, and whoever
>>isn't with Hermione ends up with her
>
>
>Great list Ebony! HOW on earth could I forgotten the new girl (usually a
>transfer student from America) cliche?
>
>Kathy
>
You know, I haven't read very much fanfic at all and *I've* seen this like
five times.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From icemousepotter at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  1 17:18:15 2000
From: icemousepotter at hotmail.com (icemousepotter at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:18:15 -0000
Subject: A Warners Warning :Old Story?
In-Reply-To: <8oofap+a3l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ooocn+4pjh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 713

I agree that if Warners were to try and close down Harry Potter sites 
it would be terrible but given that this story was posted at the 
Register on February 9 this year and nothing seems to have happened 
yet, do we need to panic? I remember this all being discussed on 
Jenna's site at the time - as I recall, Fox had started going after 
Buffy sites with script transcripts on them - and a rumour went round 
that Warners would try to do the same thing to HP sites. But then the 
whole thing died down. Is there a more up to date source for the  
story than February?







From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 18:41:51 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:41:51 -0000
Subject: Playstation - I just had to check
Message-ID: <8oot9f+qcnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 714

I was doing some completely unrelated e-commerce law research, and an 
article with some History of Sony Playstation information cropped up 
in my citation list. Since I recall some recent debate saying that 
JKR was "so wrong" (I'm paraphrasing) to include Dudley throwing a 
Playstation out the window in the Summer of 1994, I wanted to see 
just how wrong she was. And the answer, at least for the UK? Between 
2 months and a year.
Why?
In September, 1994, Sony had some prototypes of the PLaystation 
floating around the UK, and there had been prototypes in Japan for 
the entire year. In fact, they were being sold in Japanese stores 
since the summer for 39,800 yen, or about $350. In other words, they 
existed, they could be purchased, they could be shipped from Japan to 
Little Whinging. Not likely, but not a temporal anomaly either.

I found an article from the December 29, 1994 Guardian which said 
that "In September, [in the UK] Sony ... unveiled the powerful 
PlayStation-X home games console."

And if the durselys wanted to keep Dudley happy, then it's possible 
(not probable, but again, not a temporal anomoly) that they spent 
about 300 pounds to buy him the first Playstation on the block by 
June, 1994. 

So there you have it.

(although I'm willing to bet a galleon (wait! I don't have a 
galleon!) that JKR actually did get it wrong, and somehow remembered 
playstations from Around That Time, and decided to mention them 
instead of Sega Genesis or the Nintento NES, which were the BIG 
things in 1994. 

Of course, i still have an atari 2600 with Pitfall, so what do I know 
about gaming? 





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep  1 18:48:14 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:48:14 -0700
Subject: OT - Halloween goodies
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOKCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 715

This is Off Topic, but sorta relevent.... I just got my latest catalog from
the Oriental Trading Company -- and if any of you are looking for a great
source for goodies for a Halloween party for kids OR adults, this is the
place.  Where else can you get a dozen glow-in-the-dark bouncing eyeballs
for only six dollars?  LOL

You can check them out at http://www.oriental.com  but it's really worth the
$2.00 to order a catalog subscription -- they send one out before every
major holiday.  They sell costumes, toys, candy, stickers, party favors,
etc.  Great fun -- almost makes me wish I knew some kids (NOT!).




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 18:50:04 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 19:50:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901185004.00701da0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 716

At 16:37 09/01/2000 -0000, you wrote:
>
>....are some of the various protections along the route to the 
>Sorceror's/Philosopher's Stone, puzzles at all?

A very good point.  

My thought is that retrieving the Philosopher's Stone via all these puzzles
was part of an elaborate plan conceived by Dumbledore, representing the
first of a series of tests for Harry.  Harry was known to have potential as
a nemesis of Voldemort, but Dumbledore would need to toughen him up and test
his skills until he was ready for the big showdown. He needed to stretch
Harry's talents to the limit in order to build him for the bigger trials to
come.  The fact that Harry had the help of Hermione and Ron was an
indication of his ability to utilise, however inadvertently, other people
for the skills in which he is weakest (this happens again in GoF,
particularly with Dobby and the Gillyweed). 

Dumbledore also, presumably, hoped that Harry would be able to retrieve the
stone using the Mirror of Erised - that would confirm his feelings about
Harry's good character.  Earlier, he had made sure the mirror was in the
room Harry wandered into (that was no chance finding), so that Harry would
realise its function later on.  In fact, Harry, only wanting to find the
stone and not use it, successfully relocated it to his pocket. Dumbledore
had proved Harry's resourcefulness in the face of obstacles and had proof of
his lack of greed and willingness to serve others in face of personal danger.

The fact that Voldemort was living on the back of Quirrell's head, right
under Hogwarts' roof was, I assume, not known to Dumbledore in the early
stages.  The two plotlines became intermingled because Voldemort thought he
could use the stone to get his hands on the Elixir of Life.  Dumbledore
could not have anticipated that the very thing against which he was training
Harry was right under his nose and trying to get to the stone as well. He
returned, in the nick of time, to pull Quirrell off Harry, and must have
breathed a huge sigh of relief that he hadn't just thrown his champion to
the lions.    
 
Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 19:13:21 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 20:13:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the books in German
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901191321.007156ac@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 717

At 14:29 09/01/2000 -0000, you wrote:
>
>An article at http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12936.html 
>discusses the impatience of german fans of the book.
>
>As the article says:
>
>"This delay was too much for Potter fans, who promptly started 
>translating chapters and posting the results on the Internet. The 
>first six were up on www.harry-auf-deutsch.de, nine more are on their 
>way and the remaining 22 have been distributed to university students 
>for translation."
>
>Guys - remember, downloading chapters from that site is a Copyright 
>Violation - don't do it! 

Would any of us break the law in such a heinous fashion? ;)

It will be interesting to see how this form of translation-by-committee
compares to the official one, due out in October I think (thanks to Dennis
for that German HP countdown calendar leaflet, but it's on my desk at work).
For example, do they use Hermione's name or continue with Hermine, as in the
previous official translations.

>From what I can gather, the French translations are not so accurate, so
perhaps French University students will do something similar.

Neil  


  


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 19:23:54 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 20:23:54 +0100
Subject: Children's versions?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901192354.006f6c18@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 718

All our talk about darkening and more adult themes in the Harry Potter
books, plus the New York Times' daft decision to put the books on the
children's bestseller list, makes me wonder whether there will be moves to
release children's versions of the future HP books. I'm sure this must have
been done before, but can anyone think of an example of a book or series in
which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to provide a
'children's version'? I think there will be considerable pressure on the
publishers to do something like this, having created such a huge demand
among younger readers, but knowing that the content may be increasingly
adult in flavour.  It's clear that JKR plans to write the books she planned
to write and would not be swayed to tone them down.

I hope this hasn't been raised already - I haven't quite read all the posts
from the last week. 

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep  1 19:27:11 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 19:27:11 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
In-Reply-To: <8oo8pa+sqms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oovuf+2db6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 719

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
>  I think that Verne Troyer "Mini-me" would make a great Peeves.  I 
> wonder if that is the role they are talking about but just didn't 
> understand the difference between gouls and poltergeists.  Those 
> Hollywood types, Hrmph!
> 
> Jim

I have no idea what ghoul they're referring to for Troyer to play, 
either.  I'd hate to think they're 'creating' characters just because 
they want to.  For Peeves, my picture of him is a cross between Uncle 
Albert (Ed Wynn) from Mary Poppins, and The Funky Phantom.  Can 
anyone else see that?  (Thinking of F. Phantom made me remember The 
Drak Pack-- anyone think we may see a vampire in the future books?  
Probably not, just thought since there's a werewolf...)

And, just to throw this in-- I'm part of the group that thought it 
was "Her-mee-own".  I know, I know, but in my defense, when I was 
about twelve I read a book called "Ghosts I Have Been" by Richard 
Peck,  I think.  The teacher in this book was Ms. Hermione Tingly, 
not sure about the last name, but anyhow, looked like Her-mee-own to 
me (I was twelve), I had never heard it pronounced so it never 
occurred to me I was saying it wrong.  Now, when I read I go back and 
forth between my way and the right way.  Bit frustrating, really.

One other thing, pronunciations in general-- does anyone know of any 
books or sites with pronunciations for various words and phrases?  I 
have Brewers Dict. of Phrase and Fable, great BTW, but no 
pronunciations.  I'm thinking of mythological & foreign names, myth. 
& foreign places, foreign phrases & words, all that sort of thing.  
Feel free to email me off-list if you'd rather.  
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  

Thanks everyone, and sorry for such a long post.

Kelley 




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep  1 19:35:58 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:35:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....
In-Reply-To: <8oom0l+j0st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOLCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 720

It's a time-honored tradition in novels of this sort, to have a series of
trials that the hero must go through in order to sharpen his powers.  The
hero (usually a kid) has to solve the mysteries, locate the talismans, fight
off the minor villains, and hone his magical powers before he faces the
Really Big Bad Guy/Creature.  The apprenticeship, then the mastery, then
peering into the lonely future that awaits all superheroes.....



-----Original Message-----
From: Brooks R [mailto:brooksar at indy.net]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 9:38 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....

....are some of the various protections along the route to the
Sorceror's/Philosopher's Stone, puzzles at all?

The Sphynx riddle in the maze in GoF fits in.  The competition SHOULD
be a puzzle.  But in SS/PS, they are trying to protect something of
great value and dangerous power.  So why use solvable puzzles?

Is this some inconvenient wizardly honor code?  To a SMALL extent it
can be explained as a precaution, so someone else can retrieve the
Stone in case something happens to Dumbledore.  That way some other
smart good guy can get through them if needed.  It gave lots of
nice quest/adventure/tension for the climax of the plot for Our
Heroes.

But why have puzzles that *bad guys can solve too*?

Think about it!

Fluffy is a reasonable guard - he can be diverted, the only puzzle if
finding out how.

The snareweed also falls into the category of a perfectly reasonable
trap.

The Troll too is a dumb guard, and the heroes, conveniently, do not
have to face him anyway.

The Flying Keys are more of a stretch, but somewhat reasonable.
Someone could be expected to try all of a large selection of keys
until they find the right one, if they are just sitting there.
Eventually even a clumsy wizard might be able to catch the right key.

OTOH, what if you made several keys  of different heads still fit,
but
some of them lock the door more tightly, so that even if you find the
right key you may not know it because you need now to use it more than
once?

But the chess game?  Why bother?  Why not just transfigure a set of
statues or something into guards, with some kind of password
programmed into them?

Similarly, why bother with the logic puzzle of the potions?
Just put a bunch of bottles in there and let someone take their
chances!  The person who sets it up knows the correct ones; other
than that what does it matter?

On the other hand, Dumbledore is right about the Mirror of Erised.
It does work nicely as a protection.  Although it is really not clear
what kind of spell is used to get the stone hidden in it that way.
Alternately, this may be a not-specific alternate power of the mirror
itself - perhaps there is a spell to conceal something by placing it
into a mirror's image, which after all might be a parallel universe.

So of all the protections, two of them seem quite inadequate against
a smart bad guy, and the Flying Key could almost certainly be caught
eventually.  It seems like the puzzles are counterproductive as
protections.

Brooks


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep  1 19:56:17 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 19:56:17 -0000
Subject: picture books?
Message-ID: <8op1l1+9pp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 721

FFA wrote

> All our talk about darkening and more adult themes in the Harry 
Potter
> books, plus the New York Times' daft decision to put the books on 
the
> children's bestseller list, makes me wonder whether there 
> will be moves to
> release children's versions of the future HP books. I'm sure 
> this must have
> been done before, but can anyone think of an example of a 
> book or series in
> which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to 
provide a
> 'children's version'? I think there will be considerable 
> pressure on the
> publishers to do something like this, having created such a 
> huge demand
> among younger readers, but knowing that the content may be 
> increasingly
> adult in flavour.  

I can remember at least 2 VERY different circumstances where this has 
been done recently.
1. Star Wars Episode 1 The Phanton Menace
	I've seen 24 or so page versions of the podrace scene and the 
Anakin Blowing Up The Robot Control Ship scene, with photos from the 
movie - they're an easy way for littler kids to enjoy the movie 
while, say, in a car or on a plane, and the kids can read them on 
their own, whereas the "adult" version fo the book is about 400 pages 
long, and not as easily transportable.
	Check out 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375800115/ref=sim_books/002-
4807228-4988832 or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-
similarities/0375800271/ref=sim_m_books/002-4807228-4988832 for 
examples.
2. The early Little House on the Prarie books
	They take 3-4 stories from the earlier books (little house in 
the big woods, on the prairie, on the banks of plum creek) and put 
them into illustrated storybook form. I've bought them for my 
husband's cousin, when she was 4, and she really enjoyed the stories, 
but she's probably not going to be ready for one of the chapter book 
versions until she's a late 6 year old.
	Check out 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0064420604/ref=sim_books/002-
4807228-4988832 or 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0064420841/ref=sim_books/002-
4807228-4988832 for examples.

I actually expect them to do something like this for the HP books - 
part of me is thinking, "is there a 5 year old out there who won't 
love to read an illustrated version of one of the Quidditch matches" 
and another part of me is thinking - those quidditch matches can be 
pretty violent - and another scene which, intheory might make for a 
nice picture book thing would be Harry's First Time On A Broomstick - 
but the altercation with Draco, and the circumstrances surrounding 
Neville's injury, might be hard to, um, simplify.

I'm wondering what some of the writers & fanfic-ers here think - is 
there a way to "simple down" one of the scenes without eviscerating 
it like the blast ended skrewts seemed to do to each other?




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 20:15:05 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:15:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEOLCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <005801c01451$51a13600$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 722

Reminds me of Stephen King, the Talisman.  I really liked that book too!

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 3:35 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  It's a time-honored tradition in novels of this sort, to have a series of
  trials that the hero must go through in order to sharpen his powers.  The
  hero (usually a kid) has to solve the mysteries, locate the talismans, fight
  off the minor villains, and hone his magical powers before he faces the
  Really Big Bad Guy/Creature.  The apprenticeship, then the mastery, then
  peering into the lonely future that awaits all superheroes.....



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Brooks R [mailto:brooksar at indy.net]
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 9:38 AM
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....

  ....are some of the various protections along the route to the
  Sorceror's/Philosopher's Stone, puzzles at all?

  The Sphynx riddle in the maze in GoF fits in.  The competition SHOULD
  be a puzzle.  But in SS/PS, they are trying to protect something of
  great value and dangerous power.  So why use solvable puzzles?

  Is this some inconvenient wizardly honor code?  To a SMALL extent it
  can be explained as a precaution, so someone else can retrieve the
  Stone in case something happens to Dumbledore.  That way some other
  smart good guy can get through them if needed.  It gave lots of
  nice quest/adventure/tension for the climax of the plot for Our
  Heroes.

  But why have puzzles that *bad guys can solve too*?

  Think about it!

  Fluffy is a reasonable guard - he can be diverted, the only puzzle if
  finding out how.

  The snareweed also falls into the category of a perfectly reasonable
  trap.

  The Troll too is a dumb guard, and the heroes, conveniently, do not
  have to face him anyway.

  The Flying Keys are more of a stretch, but somewhat reasonable.
  Someone could be expected to try all of a large selection of keys
  until they find the right one, if they are just sitting there.
  Eventually even a clumsy wizard might be able to catch the right key.

  OTOH, what if you made several keys  of different heads still fit,
  but
  some of them lock the door more tightly, so that even if you find the
  right key you may not know it because you need now to use it more than
  once?

  But the chess game?  Why bother?  Why not just transfigure a set of
  statues or something into guards, with some kind of password
  programmed into them?

  Similarly, why bother with the logic puzzle of the potions?
  Just put a bunch of bottles in there and let someone take their
  chances!  The person who sets it up knows the correct ones; other
  than that what does it matter?

  On the other hand, Dumbledore is right about the Mirror of Erised.
  It does work nicely as a protection.  Although it is really not clear
  what kind of spell is used to get the stone hidden in it that way.
  Alternately, this may be a not-specific alternate power of the mirror
  itself - perhaps there is a spell to conceal something by placing it
  into a mirror's image, which after all might be a parallel universe.

  So of all the protections, two of them seem quite inadequate against
  a smart bad guy, and the Flying Key could almost certainly be caught
  eventually.  It seems like the puzzles are counterproductive as
  protections.

  Brooks


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nick at nicmit.com  Fri Sep  1 20:26:57 2000
From: nick at nicmit.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:26:57 +0100
Subject: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
Message-ID: <005b01c01453$01fbe3a0$11987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 723

Hi all

>Warner Brothers is setting the attack dogs on Harry Potter fan Web
>sites. The media giant which has film rights to two Harry Potter
>books, is demanding that Web sites such as harrypotterisawizard.co.uk

Yeah... my site, which once was - Domain now owned by Warner Bros.

So, someone here has found the article on the Register - which I knew
nothing about until a friend of mine saw it and said - hey, isn't that your
site?

An update to the story is this.

Warner Bros has applied for the trademark "Harry Potter".  In doing so, they
are it appears able to seek and recover (read that as destroy) domain names
which infringe their intellectual property rights - ie, which contain the
phrase Harry Potter.

I have been in long legal discussions with David Engle, Warner's Lawyer here
in England regarding this matter... and to cut a long story short, I decided
not to persue it through the courts - thus Warner Bros has the domain
www.harrypotterisawizard.co.uk  (though an interesting note, dispite
transfer paperwork being done back in March - I still have access to the DNS
manager!)

I am not sure what other action Warner are taking against other sites.  I am
aware that David Engle has a Hot List of domains which Warner feel are part
of the Harry Potter Properties (as the rights are known).

Jenna's site - www.harrypotterfans.net is not going to be really very
effected, as the domain name which she registered, is only being used to
pass through visitors - to the site which is hosted by Geocities (and most
if not all visitors know the geocities URL).   However, it is interesting
that Jenna didn't change the site to be under the domain name... maybe
Warner contacted her asking for transfer of domain.

If any lawyer in our mist want's David's email address - please email me off
list.   I'm sure he'll be happy to chat with you regarding what is happening
regarding the Harry Potter Properties.   Don't write to Warner... they
totally ignore mail  (in fact, even WBSTORE.COM are currently ignoring me -
my order 10th Aug, has still not arrived, and I am getting a bit
concerned!).

When I raised this issue with Jo... she was concerned.   She as we know is
not very aware of the internet - at least, not when it comes to domain
registration!  Jo (at least in her last letter to me) said that she would be
concerned if legitimate fan sites were closed, though she did stress that
she is concerned about people making and selling copy-cat merchandise (well
she would be, she gets royalties from the merchandise I expect).

So... that's the latest.

Nick
ex owner of: www.harrypotterisawizard.co.uk
Fragments of old site are at: http://www.dvd-films.freeuk.com/harrypotter/






From estesrandy at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 20:45:39 2000
From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy Estes)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 13:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H Cliches (was Lori's Fanfic Question)
Message-ID: <20000901204539.13281.qmail@web314.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 724


--- summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:
> >
> >>- A new girl (usually from America) plays
> matchmaker, and whoever
> >>isn't with Hermione ends up with her
> >
> >
> >Great list Ebony! HOW on earth could I forgotten
> the new girl (usually a
> >transfer student from America) cliche?
> >
> >Kathy
> >
> You know, I haven't read very much fanfic at all and
> *I've* seen this like
> five times.
> 
> Lori
> 
> 
>
**********************************************************
> Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers
> 
> Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
> Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and
> Messina
> Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
>
***********************************************************
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 20:55:16 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:55:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Playstation - I just had to check
References: <8oot9f+qcnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B017B4.47F07C39@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 725

Hi --

heidi tandy wrote:

> Since I recall some recent debate saying that JKR was "so wrong" (I'm
> paraphrasing) to include Dudley throwing a Playstation out the window
> in the Summer of 1994, I wanted to see just how wrong she was. And the
> answer, at least for the UK? Between 2 months and a year.

> And if the durselys wanted to keep Dudley happy, then it's possible
> (not probable, but again, not a temporal anomoly) that they spent
> about 300 pounds to buy him the first Playstation on the block by
> June, 1994.
>
> (although I'm willing to bet a galleon (wait! I don't have a
> galleon!) that JKR actually did get it wrong, and somehow remembered
> playstations from Around That Time, and decided to mention them
> instead of Sega Genesis or the Nintento NES, which were the BIG
> things in 1994.

I also would be willing to be she just had a vague notion that
Playstations were being distributed *around* the mid-1990s.  I don't
think she's necessarily checking out all the little details (though
we're having fun doing so).

I don't believe that being slightly off in the timeframe of when
Playstations were widely available (since Heidi has confirmed it was
really a matter of being no more than one yr off) undercuts the rest of
the chronology (that is the 1992 date for CoS, which means Harry was
born in 1980).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From particle at urbanet.ch  Fri Sep  1 21:05:29 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 23:05:29 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: more fanfic cliches  
References: <8oojg6+cuj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002801c01458$5ce0fc60$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 726

Guess what! I can add more to the list!!!! Well, that's not too surprising - I am almost 100% positive that I've read more fanfiction than everyone else on this entire list, and then some. Luckily, within the past few months I've come to my senses. Anyway, at the bottom are some more cliches - some of them haven't been used in months, actually...

- Ginny confesses her love for Harry/Draco/Neville in her diary
- Harry dates Cho, who cheats on him, leading him to find true love 
in Hermione or Ginny, depending on the author's ship
- Ron, Hermione, and shooting stars (that one I don't get, but it's 
really common!)
- Harry Potter and Survivor (this has been done WAY too often--oh 
wait, once would have been way too often!)
- Snape dances to Britney Spears (also way too common--shudder)
- Snape and McGonagall fall in love
- Harry has a secret twin, also still alive
- Lavendar gives Hermione a makeover
- Hermione goes to another school dance and finds true love
==========
- A new girl (usually from America) plays matchmaker, and whoever 
isn't with Hermione ends up with her
- Hermione undergoes a complete personality change... I've seen her 
written as everything from CA valley girl airhead to school slut
- Harry undergoes a complete personality change, transforming from 
bumbling adolescent to Don Juan
- Plot? What plot? (about 70% of the content of FFnet)
- *Badly* done stream of consciousness interspersed with bubble gum 
pop lyrics (Hermione identifies with Christina 
Aguilera's "Reflections" and Harry identifies with Britney 
Spears' "Lucky")
- Sirius' long-lost love child becomes an acquaintance of the Three
- Hermione is actually friends with Lavendar or Parvati
- None of the major plot elements are even *mentioned*... nothing of 
the upcoming war
- Major plot elements are horribly bungled, ending with a *horribly* 
written fight sequence... several of these have had me on the floor 
screaming with laughter
- Hermione commits suicide when Harry or Ron tells her they just want 
to be friends
- Hermione sacrifices her life for Harry, Lily-fashion
- Harry goes to live with Sirius, whose name has been cleared
- Harry (or Harry and Ron) goes to visit Hermione over the summer and 
sparks fly
- Hermione saves Harry from the Dark Side after he has joined forces 
with Voldemort
- Harry and Ron/Gred and Forge/other co-conspirator rescue Hermione 
from marrying someone else or being kidnapped by Voldemort
- HP characters visit fanfic writers at home and clarify their 
positions on recurring fanfic plot lines
_____________

Okay, here are a few more.  I've seen just about all of the above 
many times, and am realising exactly why I only write MWPP fanfic.  

-Snape was in love with Lily at school, and the remnants of this love 
provoke him to behave in a uncharacteristically sweet and human way 
instead of being a pain in the neck.  
-Snape lost the person he loved (not necessarily Lily) and therefore 
becomes nasty and twisted.  
-Draco is secretly in love with Hermione, and this forces him to stop 
supporting Voldemort/kill himself/save her life.
-almost any story which ends in a character suicide.    
-a transfer/exchange student (usually female) arrives from America 
and charms everybody with her natural brilliance ... aka Mary Sue.  
-Dumbledore/Voldemort is actually Harry's grandfather.
-James and/or Lily appear to Harry in a dream with helpful advice.    
***
-Snape has falls in love with the new, female, DADA teacher. Naturally, he runs into problems when said DADA teacher turns out to be Voldemort/a Death Eater in disguise.
-Harry has a long-lost relative, who, because they a) are distant explorers who've been lost for the past decade and a half, b) have been too busy chasing down Death Eaters in revenge, or c) didn't know he existed because they were having family problems with James (or sometimes Lily) and so stayed out of contact, haven't showed up until now.
-Above-mentioned relative is Snape. (Okay, this one isn't so common, but still.)
-Lily and/or James is still alive.
-Harry has a twin sister, usually named Rose. Rose also has a lightning scar.
-Harry vanishes/is kidnapped one fine morning. Years later, Hermione finds out that Harry is now Voldie's little stooge, and convinces him to abandon the Dark Side of the F--- er, Dark Magic.
-Four travelers wander into Platform 9 3/4 on Sept. 1st. Their names are Ash, Misty, Brock, and Pikachu.
-Harry becomes an Animagus.
-Harry marries Hermione, and they have a girl. Ron marries Lavender, and they have a boy. Boy and Girl fall in love.
Variations: Harry marries Ginny, Ron marries Hermione. Or, Harry marries Cho, but it doesn't work out and he leaves her.
-Some new student comes into the story, and turns out to be nearly as important in the quest to stop Voldemort as Harry is.
-Harry has two kids, twins, named James and Lily.
-Cho is a...mean person/slut. 
-Lavender/Parvati is a slut, and is now into wearing Muggle clothing, in school and out. Teenybopper Muggle clothing. And she listens to Britney Spears, too...
-Lily spends a lot of time as a spirit watching Harry sleep.
-McGonagall and Snape had unhappy childhoods.
-Draco gets forced into being Voldemort's heir.
-Ron decides he's gay, gets various parts of his body pierced, and has a boyfriend named Nicky. Often in these same stories, Harry 'can't get any', and Hermione is on drugs/has a lot of unsafe sex/has an affair with Dumbledore. (No comment.)
-Hogwarts goes online.
-Voldemort is really a nice guy...
-Fred/George dies, tearjerker ensues. (I was one of the first ones who did this! It wasn't a cliche back then! So there!)
-Harry becomes a recluse from society, and everyone forgets him (except Hermione).
-Dumbledore and McGonagall have an affair, despite Dumbledore's almost certainly being old enough to be McGonagall's father.
-Lily's parents were actually Squibs.
-Mrs. Norris used to be human.

Okay, now we're beginning to get into almost-but-not-quite cliches, so I think I can stop now.

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 21:13:56 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:13:56 -0500
Subject: picture books?
References: <8op1l1+9pp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B01C14.3B86053@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 727

Hi --

heidi tandy wrote:

> 2. The early Little House on the Prarie books
>       They take 3-4 stories from the earlier books (little house in
> the big woods, on the prairie, on the banks of plum creek) and put
> them into illustrated storybook form. I've bought them for my
> husband's cousin, when she was 4, and she really enjoyed the stories,
> but she's probably not going to be ready for one of the chapter book
> versions until she's a late 6 year old.
>

Heidi stole my thunder with that one.  The difference between the above
example & what might need to be done with HP though is thus: they took
chapter books intended for 6-10 yr olds (the 4 earlier Little House
books -- the latter ones are for a slightly older audience in general)
and made them appropriate to read to 2-5 yr old kids.  They're called
"My First Little House" books --mainly illustrations & very very simple
text that takes a single chapter out of the chapter book & greatly
simplifies it.  With HP, on the other hand, I think Neil was asking
whether it's possible to imagine that Scholastic could edit the last 3
(arguably 4) books of the series so that all the material is appropriate
for the 9-12 yr old set.  Right?

That seems more complicated than transforming certain scenes/chapters
into a storybook that could be used by even younger readers.  I don't
know if it will be possible to edit out the darker, more adult themes &
scenes without eviscerating the plot entirely.

That's why I think the HP books present such a unique situation.  It's
hard to think of another series where the books start out aimed at (or
at least appropriate for) a young audience, but get progressively less &
less appropriate for the same audience as it continues.

It also makes the NY Times position more & more & more ludicrous.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 21:42:18 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 22:42:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000901214218.00718e8c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 728

With HP, on the other hand, I think Neil was asking
>whether it's possible to imagine that Scholastic could edit the last 3
>(arguably 4) books of the series so that all the material is appropriate
>for the 9-12 yr old set.  Right?

That is exactly what I meant, and I agree that it would be very difficult to
achieve.  Perhaps there will be a natural decline in interest among the
youngest stratum of readers as we began to see with GoF, I think.  The
publishers may still think of this from a marketing point of view and Warner
Brothers won't want to be losing the younger audience either.   

Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or comic book
version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an alternative
format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  Imagine
what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  

>That's why I think the HP books present such a unique situation.  It's
>hard to think of another series where the books start out aimed at (or
>at least appropriate for) a young audience, but get progressively less &
>less appropriate for the same audience as it continues.

I think the media are largely to blame for misinterpreting the books as
children's books *only* from the outset and failing to take on board the
likely development, given the year-by-year progression through Hogwarts.
Okay, I'm generalising, but even when adults have been mentioned in
articles, it's invariably in the context of 'hey, adults like these books
too!'  With GoF, journalists suddenly found themselves questioning the
suitability for young children, as if the change in tone was a bolt from the
blue.  They could have anticipated it, but they seemed to have largely
ignored JKR's own comments on her intentions for the series.  She pays
attention to her younger readers, but she has always been adamant that she
won't tone things down in the later books.  

If in doubt, blame the press!
 
Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 21:42:11 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:42:11 -0000
Subject: OT - Halloween goodies
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOKCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8op7rj+c26r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 729

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> This is Off Topic, but sorta relevent.... I just got my latest 
catalog from
> the Oriental Trading Company -- and if any of you are looking for a 
great
> source for goodies for a Halloween party for kids OR adults, this 
is the
> place.  Where else can you get a dozen glow-in-the-dark bouncing 
eyeballs
> for only six dollars?  LOL
> 
> You can check them out at http://www.oriental.com  but it's really 
worth the
> $2.00 to order a catalog subscription -- they send one out before 
every
> major holiday.  They sell costumes, toys, candy, stickers, party 
favors,
> etc.  Great fun -- almost makes me wish I knew some kids (NOT!).

Way cool site, Sister M.!  I was wondering where I would get my 
Inflate Smile Face Daisies this year!




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 21:54:29 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:54:29 -0000
Subject: NYTimes Bestseller List Again
Message-ID: <8op8il+sk1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 730

Just a thought - If Scholastic started publishing 2 editions of the 
HP books the way Bloomsbury does (one for adults and one for children 
where the only difference is the cover), would the Times then track 
sales of the adult version on the regular list and the childrens 
version on the childrens list?




From triggjones2 at aol.com  Fri Sep  1 22:36:36 2000
From: triggjones2 at aol.com (triggjones2 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 22:36:36 -0000
Subject: More HP paraphernalia
In-Reply-To: <8om6tk+qbfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8opb1k+t813@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 731

There was also a button from the Republican convention that said the 
exact same thing -- except it was George Bush and Harry Potter, of 
course.  Makes a bit more sense since Al Gore's brand of wizardry is 
supposedly already in the White House. 

Just goes to show that the two parties are virtually interchangeable.

Trigg

-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> Yet another small, fairly irrelevant HP factoid:
> 
> Someone brought me back from the Democratic National Convention a 
> button which says:
> 
> Put Wizardry Back in the White House
> 
> with a picture of Al Gore and Harry Potter.





From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  1 23:05:11 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:05:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?
References: <1.5.4.32.20000901214218.00718e8c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B03627.87352DB0@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 732

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> I think the media are largely to blame for misinterpreting the books
> as
> children's books *only* from the outset and failing to take on board
> the
> likely development, given the year-by-year progression through
> Hogwarts.

It should be no great surprise that I agree with this, but I think the
publishers (both Bloomsbury & Scholastic) have to take their fair share
of the blame.  They've marketed & panned the books as for children from
the get-go, and of all people involved, *they* (her editors in
particular) ought to have been well-aware that the series wouldn't
always be appropriate for 9-12 yr olds.  If they were listening to her I
guess.

In fairness, I suppose Bloomsbury didn't really expect the books to be
as wildly successful as they have been and can be somewhat forgiven for
not having a better long-range vision for marketing.  But, Scholastic
must have had some inkling since they got in a bidding war over the HP
property.

> Okay, I'm generalising, but even when adults have been mentioned in
> articles, it's invariably in the context of 'hey, adults like these
> books
> too!'  With GoF, journalists suddenly found themselves questioning the
>
> suitability for young children, as if the change in tone was a bolt
> from the blue.

Yes -- it's as if they suddenly realized "Hey, wait a minute, she really
meant it when she said she wasn't going to keep those kids in perpetual
pre-pubescence."  I don't understand *how* this could have been a
surprise to anyone who had really been tracking JKR's public statements
on the issue.

>  They could have anticipated it, but they seemed to have largely
> ignored JKR's own comments on her intentions for the series.  She pays
> attention to her younger readers, but she has always been adamant that
> she won't tone things down in the later books.
>

I know we've talked about this before, but I for one am glad we're not
going to get a watered down version of the story she wanted to write (at
least I hope she continues to stick to her guns on that one).

Joywitch -- I *love* your idea about whether the adult *covers* would be
enough to force the NY Times to track them on their bestseller list.
After all, logically, the books with "adult covers" are *intended* for
adults or otherwise they wouldn't exist.  What a brilliant idea.  Anyone
have an email contact for Scholastic?  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  1 23:22:01 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 23:22:01 -0000
Subject: Mini-me in HP movie
In-Reply-To: <8oo8pa+sqms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8opdmp+qht4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 733

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
>  I think that Verne Troyer "Mini-me" would make a great Peeves.  I 
> wonder if that is the role they are talking about but just didn't 
> understand the difference between gouls and poltergeists.  Those 
> Hollywood types, Hrmph!
> 
> Jim

A lot of times these magazines, etc. will mess up and not even know 
it.  I think I have found an error in nearly every HP article I have 
read.  For example, I read something that described Snape as "the 
evil Transfigurations teacher."  They could be using "ghoul" as a 
fancy word for "ghost."
~Kaitlin




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 23:45:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 23:45:05 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000901065709.007126a8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8opf21+hm6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 734

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:

> Hermione Baddeley 

In HP, a student with surname Baddeley would be Sorted into 
Slytherin, as In GoF, a Malcolm Baddock is Sorted into Slytherin. I 
imagine that he is usually called by the nickname Mal, which we 
already said (in connection with the name Malfoy) is French for
'bad'. 




From drmm at Juno.com  Fri Sep  1 23:42:45 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 18:42:45 -0500
Subject: picture books?
Message-ID: <20000901.184300.-160897.0.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 735

From: Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>

>Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or comic
book
>version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
>simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an
alternative
>format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  Imagine
>what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  

eek!  don't call them cartoons.  It's anime.  Anime is *not* cartoons. 
Cartoons are those cheezy things meant entirely for children.  Anime, on
the other hand is full of nasty plot twists, creativity, subjects such as
homosexuality that could *never* be dealed with in a cartoon, and
incredible animation that surpasses any American animation (except,
perhaps Disney).

*cough*  Um, sorry, got totally off-topic there with one of my pet
subjects :)  We Otaku's (anime fans) get that way about anime vs.
cartoons (Pokemon is a *horrible* example of anime).

Anyway, it would be wonderful to have Harry turned into an anime series. 
Japanese anime, when adapted from an original work (especially mangas --
er, graphic novel), treats them better than any American company ever
could.  It would be fun to see :)

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Kodomo no Omocha (untranslated)

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  2 00:46:38 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:46:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mini-me in HP movie
Message-ID: <v02140b97b5d5fe4c4717@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 736


>
>A lot of times these magazines, etc. will mess up and not even know
>it.  I think I have found an error in nearly every HP article I have
>read.  For example, I read something that described Snape as "the
>evil Transfigurations teacher."  They could be using "ghoul" as a
>fancy word for "ghost."
>~Kaitlin
>
>
Yes, and one I saw earlier today about the copyright thing said that the
poltergeist was named Jeeves.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From jickndim at garden.net  Fri Sep  1 23:51:57 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 23:51:57 -0000
Subject: Pig books
In-Reply-To: <v02140b88b5d4f61d353d@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8opfet+ctuc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 737

 
> >I have been told that in American colleges, those are called 'pig
> >books' and that fraternities keep a collection of pig books from 
all
> >local colleges and frat brothers who date a girl write comments 
about
> >her on her photo in her class's pig book, such as hints on what
> >works to seduce her.
> 
 What an ugly and sophomoric concept.  Truly an 'Animal House' 
approach.

Jim





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  1 23:59:31 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 23:59:31 -0000
Subject: UK, Ireland - the boring details (OT)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000901075156.006f5184@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8opft3+a1go@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 738

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:

> - 'Great Britain' has referred to the union of England, Scotland 
> and Wales since 1707.  The term excludes Northern Ireland, the Isle
> of Man and the Channel Islands.
> 
> - 'The British Isles' is a geographical term encompassing Great 
> Britain, Northern Ireland and all the surrounding isles, including
> the aforementioned ones and Scottish islands, such as the 
> Shetlands, but excluding the Republic of Ireland.
>
> - 'The United Kingdom is a political term, as Simon said, shorthand
> for 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.  It
> does not usually include the smaller islands.

Oh, dear! If the political-entity names (Great Britain and United 
Kingdom) don't include the Isle of Man (altho' I've never heard of it 
being ruled by a different government -- I have heard of some Channel 
Islands (a phrase that anywhere else means to me Catalina, San 
Nicolas, and the other Santa Barbara Channel Islands!) still being 
ruled by dictat of their feudal lords), then why isn't Man enough of 
an entity to rate its own National Team for Quidditch (and Muggle 
soccer football, but I think that tailless cats and being named after 
the god Mananaan would lead to a higher porportion of wizard folk in 
the population of Man than in some other places)? 

If I say in future that Hogwarts is the wizarding school for the 
whole islands of Britain and Ireland, are people going to get on 
my case about the little isles?  
> 
> - 'Lewisham' is the region where I live.  It is a component of
> London, England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, the British 
> Isles, the European Union, Europe, the World, the Earth, the Solar
> System, the Milky Way, the Universe.

I gather you've been reading up on James Joyce, who is said by Joseph 
Campbell to have a 'wall' them in FINNEGAN'S WAKE deriving from 
Stephen Dedalus having written his info (as yours above) on the fly 
page of a (primary school?) textbook and then stared at it wondering 
what about the Universe as the final term: does it go on forever or 
does it come to an end; what could be next to the end of the univrse, 
a WALL around it?






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  2 00:09:14 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:09:14 -0000
Subject: Hermione pronunciation (and brief Generation rant)
In-Reply-To: <8oof8g+laaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8opgfa+ekqh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 739

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> Might I add that my own first name is also Greek-derived 

Originally Egyptian. 'Hebeny' was African blackwood.






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  2 00:18:08 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:18:08 -0000
Subject: Playstation - I just had to check
In-Reply-To: <8oot9f+qcnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oph00+lt9k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 740

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" wrote:

> In September, 1994, Sony had some prototypes of the PLaystation 
> floating around the UK, and there had been prototypes in Japan for 
> the entire year.
> 
> ... JKR actually did get it wrong, and somehow remembered 
> playstations from Around That Time, and decided to mention them 
> instead of Sega Genesis or the Nintento NES, which were the BIG 
> things in 1994. 

I've thought all along that it wasn't JKR who put in the Sony 
Playstation, but a copy editor who wanted to name a product that 
*modern* children can relate to.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  2 00:20:47 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:20:47 -0000
Subject: OT - Halloween goodies
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEOKCAAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8oph4v+1hds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 741

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:

> Where else can you get a dozen glow-in-the-dark bouncing eyeballs
> for only six dollars? 

Today we parked our car beside a truck bearing a lot of stickers, 
one depicting an eyeball flying with two golden wings. Tim said: 
"That's a Snitch!" I said: "It should be Gold, not eyeball." Tim: 
"I didn't say a GOLDEN Snitch." "Oh. It's an Eyeball Snitch." 




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 00:24:00 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:24:00 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fanfic_Clich=E9s?=
Message-ID: <8ophb0+806f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 742

Hello:

Well, I've finally wangled time away from homework, practices, and 
angry guidance counselors to catch up on the posts.  I promise that I 
will not rant about how much misery my sophomore year is certain to 
hold-- let it suffice to say that not even a Mommy-ordained schedule 
change from Algebra 2 to Honors Junior Analytical Pre-Calc is enough 
compensation for the sheer volume of morons I must deal with in my 
other classes.  AUUGH!

More clich?s:

Harry and Hermione have a daughter who is the most powerful witch in 
history.

Someone finds deep, hidden meaning in a Britney Spears lyric.

Herm is decribed as "gazing into his incredible emerald eyes".

The Astronomy Tower is mentioned as a hot makeout spot.

The scrappy, plucky American exchange student puts in an appearance.

Two words: Random Dance.

*
--Alicia/Sue "Tongue Planted Firmly in Cheek" Spinnet

"Is that a chicken fry in your pocket, or are you just happy to see 
me?" --good pal Jeff Kowalzek

Last Movie Seen: "The Opposite of Sex"
Discman's Spinning: "You've Come a Long Way, Baby", Fatboy Slim
Current Book: "Honor Among Thieves", Jeffrey Archer
* 





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  2 00:25:47 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 01:25:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: picture books?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000902002547.00660550@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 743

At 18:42 09/01/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>
>From: Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
>
>>Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or comic
>book
>>version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
>>simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an
>alternative
>>format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  Imagine
>>what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  
>
>eek!  don't call them cartoons.  It's anime.  Anime is *not* cartoons. 
>Cartoons are those cheezy things meant entirely for children.  Anime, on
>the other hand is full of nasty plot twists, creativity, subjects such as
>homosexuality that could *never* be dealed with in a cartoon, and
>incredible animation that surpasses any American animation (except,
>perhaps Disney).

Ooops! Terribly sorry, Dr MM.  Actually, I wasn't talking about animation or
anime, I was thinking about illustrated books in the same style, but I
expect I still sinned by calling the artists 'cartoonists'.  You know, I
should have learned my lesson by now, since one of my brothers lectures on
animation and gets rattled when I tell people that he "watches cartoons for
a living" (in my cheeky, big-brotherly way).  

So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the comic book
equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be called
illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime illustrators? 

Continuing this very large OT aside about anime, the Sci-Fi Channel here
just had a whole week of anime features.  I only saw bits, but I loved the
style.  I've also watched the Pokemon cartoons, sorry, ahem - anime - and
they seemed like kids' stuff in comparison.  

On last thing. I was in the Underground the other day and saw a poster for
the new Pokemon movie. There was a boy of about eight standing in front of
it, kissing each of the individual Pokemons in the picture, while his mother
screamed at him that they would miss the train.  The things children do!

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  2 00:28:01 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:28:01 -0000
Subject: more fanfic cliches
In-Reply-To: <002801c01458$5ce0fc60$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8ophih+1rh5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 744

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:

> -Harry has a twin sister, usually named Rose.

Why Rose?

> -Ron decides he's gay, gets various parts of his body pierced, and 
has a boyfriend named Nicky. 

Why Nicky? (btw, LOL.)

> -Dumbledore and McGonagall have an affair, despite Dumbledore's 
> almost certainly being old enough to be McGonagall's father.

They're old enough that a 30 year age difference is a great deal 
less important than being at the same level of health and mental 
acuity.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep  1 23:37:27 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:37:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Children's versions?
References: <1.5.4.32.20000901192354.006f6c18@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B03DB7.96C16C7E@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 745



Neil Ward wrote:.

but can anyone think of an example of a book or series in

> which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to provide a
> 'children's version'?

The very word "Bowdlerize" is derived from the name of an English editor,
Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825) who published an expurgated Shakespeare (i.e., with
the naughty/offensive bits taken out).

Peg




From jickndim at garden.net  Sat Sep  2 00:32:13 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:32:13 -0000
Subject: picture books?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000901214218.00718e8c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8ophqd+n6m2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 746

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> With HP, on the other hand, I think Neil was asking
> >whether it's possible to imagine that Scholastic could edit the 
last 3
> >(arguably 4) books of the series so that all the material is 
appropriate
> >for the 9-12 yr old set.  Right?
> 
> That is exactly what I meant, and I agree that it would be very 
difficult to
> achieve.  Perhaps there will be a natural decline in interest among 
the
> youngest stratum of readers as we began to see with GoF, I think.  
The
> publishers may still think of this from a marketing point of view 
and Warner
> Brothers won't want to be losing the younger audience either.   
> 
> Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or
comic 
book
> version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
> simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an 
alternative
> format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  
Imagine
> what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  
> 
> >That's why I think the HP books present such a unique situation.  
It's
> >hard to think of another series where the books start out aimed at 
(or
> >at least appropriate for) a young audience, but get progressively 
less &
> >less appropriate for the same audience as it continues.
> 
> I think the media are largely to blame for misinterpreting the
books 
as
> children's books *only* from the outset and failing to take on
board 
the
> likely development, given the year-by-year progression through 
Hogwarts.
> Okay, I'm generalising, but even when adults have been mentioned in
> articles, it's invariably in the context of 'hey, adults like these 
books
> too!'  With GoF, journalists suddenly found themselves questioning 
the
> suitability for young children, as if the change in tone was a bolt 
from the
> blue.  They could have anticipated it, but they seemed to have 
largely
> ignored JKR's own comments on her intentions for the series.  She 
pays
> attention to her younger readers, but she has always been adamant 
that she
> won't tone things down in the later books.  
> 
> If in doubt, blame the press!
>  
> Neil
>             Flying-Ford-Anglia
> 
>  *****************************************
> 
>    "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
>    the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
>    its rear lights blazing angrily"
> 
>  [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]
> 
>
  

Again I reveal my antiquity.  Does anybody remember Classic Comics?  
All the major literature in comic book form, including The Iliad, Les 
Miserables, most of RLS, lots of Dickens.  The were the Cliff notes
of their day for high school students.  I have a recent set of comics 
books of Wagner's Ring Cycle which is a lot of fun.  I'm a Wagner fan.

Jim




From jickndim at garden.net  Sat Sep  2 00:44:16 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:44:16 -0000
Subject: Children's versions?
In-Reply-To: <39B03DB7.96C16C7E@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8opih0+p8bq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 747

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Neil Ward wrote:.
> 
> but can anyone think of an example of a book or series in
> 
> > which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to 
provide a
> > 'children's version'?
> 
> The very word "Bowdlerize" is derived from the name of an English 
editor,
> Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825) who published an expurgated Shakespeare 
(i.e., with
> the naughty/offensive bits taken out).
> 
> Peg

OF COURSE!!! Peg, You just reminded me of the most famous book of 
adult material changed to a childrens version.  Charles and Mary 
Lamb's 'Tales From Shakespeare'.   

Jim 




From jickndim at garden.net  Sat Sep  2 00:44:20 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:44:20 -0000
Subject: Children's versions?
In-Reply-To: <39B03DB7.96C16C7E@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8opih4+5mk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 748

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Neil Ward wrote:.
> 
> but can anyone think of an example of a book or series in
> 
> > which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to 
provide a
> > 'children's version'?
> 
> The very word "Bowdlerize" is derived from the name of an English 
editor,
> Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825) who published an expurgated Shakespeare 
(i.e., with
> the naughty/offensive bits taken out).
> 
> Peg

OF COURSE!!! Peg, You just reminded me of the most famous book of 
adult material changed to a childrens version.  Charles and Mary 
Lamb's 'Tales From Shakespeare'.   

Jim 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 00:40:45 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:40:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?
References: <1.5.4.32.20000901214218.00718e8c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <005c01c01476$6ebab480$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 749

After reading Sandman (no idea the author, sorry folks) and other comics of the same dark gendre (I LOVE DEATH!!!not Lady Death), I can see that artist doing an excellent job with creating a graphic (ack, what are they called again?) version of the books.  Not a children's dummied version, but a realistically correct to the source one.

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 5:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  With HP, on the other hand, I think Neil was asking
  >whether it's possible to imagine that Scholastic could edit the last 3
  >(arguably 4) books of the series so that all the material is appropriate
  >for the 9-12 yr old set.  Right?

  That is exactly what I meant, and I agree that it would be very difficult to
  achieve.  Perhaps there will be a natural decline in interest among the
  youngest stratum of readers as we began to see with GoF, I think.  The
  publishers may still think of this from a marketing point of view and Warner
  Brothers won't want to be losing the younger audience either.   

  Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or comic book
  version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
  simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an alternative
  format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  Imagine
  what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  

  >That's why I think the HP books present such a unique situation.  It's
  >hard to think of another series where the books start out aimed at (or
  >at least appropriate for) a young audience, but get progressively less &
  >less appropriate for the same audience as it continues.

  I think the media are largely to blame for misinterpreting the books as
  children's books *only* from the outset and failing to take on board the
  likely development, given the year-by-year progression through Hogwarts.
  Okay, I'm generalising, but even when adults have been mentioned in
  articles, it's invariably in the context of 'hey, adults like these books
  too!'  With GoF, journalists suddenly found themselves questioning the
  suitability for young children, as if the change in tone was a bolt from the
  blue.  They could have anticipated it, but they seemed to have largely
  ignored JKR's own comments on her intentions for the series.  She pays
  attention to her younger readers, but she has always been adamant that she
  won't tone things down in the later books.  

  If in doubt, blame the press!

  Neil
              Flying-Ford-Anglia

  *****************************************

     "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
     the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
     its rear lights blazing angrily"

  [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

  *****************************************




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 00:47:11 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:47:11 -0400
Subject: Book five's release (was LOL~) slightly OT, as it doesn't have to do with PoU
Message-ID: <00a801c01477$55030960$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 750

Oh, I certainly hope that this little bit of info is wrong!!!!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stacy 
To: ParadigmOfUncertainty at egroups.com 
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: [ParadigmOfUncertainty] Book five's release (was LOL~) slightly OT, as it doesn't have to do with PoU



     My Groups | ParadigmOfUncertainty Main Page | Start a new group!  




--- Sister Mary Lunatic <klaatu at primenet.com> wrote:
> Lori, I wouldn't call you verbose -- I don't
> remember any part of PoA where
> I thought to myself, "Gee, I wish she would have cut
> this scene."  -- HA!  I
> was just wishing there was MORE!  You (and Penny &
> Carole) will have to keep
> writing to keep us from going crazy until next
> summer when Book 5 is
> released.
> 

You know, I read somewhere the other day that Book 5
isn't coming out until November of 2001. Because that
way it can coincide with the movie.

Eep.

*sigh* I hope that's wrong, but I have a feeling that
it's a distinct possiblity. They probably wouldn't
sell many more copies of the books, but the movie
might be more successful if they do it that way. But I
don't think it would really matter, and I hope they
realize that the fans want Book 5 out ASAP.

Stacy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  2 00:53:35 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:53:35 -0000
Subject: picture books?
In-Reply-To: <005c01c01476$6ebab480$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8opj2f+45nl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 751

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:

> After reading Sandman (no idea the author, sorry folks)

Neil Gaiman. 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 00:55:23 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0400
Subject: Anime
References: <1.5.4.32.20000902002547.00660550@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e801c01478$79d1d680$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 752

I am a huge fan of anime, in an amateur sort of way.  I own two movies (:() but am seeking more:  Robotech, Starblazers, and The Robot Carnival, or something along those lines as a title.

What do I own?  Akira and Vampire Hunter D, of course--the most commercialized movies!

LOL
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: picture books?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  At 18:42 09/01/2000 -0500, you wrote:
  >
  >From: Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
  >
  >>Since it's been raised, the idea of a picture book version (or comic
  >book
  >>version) of the Harry Potter books is intriguing, not as a means of
  >>simplifying the books or appealing to young children, but as an
  >alternative
  >>format.  Wasn't this done with "Lord of the Rings" for example?  Imagine
  >>what some of those Japanese cartoonists would do with it.  
  >
  >eek!  don't call them cartoons.  It's anime.  Anime is *not* cartoons. 
  >Cartoons are those cheezy things meant entirely for children.  Anime, on
  >the other hand is full of nasty plot twists, creativity, subjects such as
  >homosexuality that could *never* be dealed with in a cartoon, and
  >incredible animation that surpasses any American animation (except,
  >perhaps Disney).

  Ooops! Terribly sorry, Dr MM.  Actually, I wasn't talking about animation or
  anime, I was thinking about illustrated books in the same style, but I
  expect I still sinned by calling the artists 'cartoonists'.  You know, I
  should have learned my lesson by now, since one of my brothers lectures on
  animation and gets rattled when I tell people that he "watches cartoons for
  a living" (in my cheeky, big-brotherly way).  

  So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the comic book
  equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be called
  illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime illustrators? 

  Continuing this very large OT aside about anime, the Sci-Fi Channel here
  just had a whole week of anime features.  I only saw bits, but I loved the
  style.  I've also watched the Pokemon cartoons, sorry, ahem - anime - and
  they seemed like kids' stuff in comparison.  

  On last thing. I was in the Underground the other day and saw a poster for
  the new Pokemon movie. There was a boy of about eight standing in front of
  it, kissing each of the individual Pokemons in the picture, while his mother
  screamed at him that they would miss the train.  The things children do!

  Neil



              Flying-Ford-Anglia

  *****************************************

     "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
     the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
     its rear lights blazing angrily"

  [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

  *****************************************




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 01:05:36 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:05:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Children's versions?
References: <8opih0+p8bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010601c01479$ea1f6be0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 753

My god..... I own a copy of that from the early 1900s.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Hohman 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:44 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Children's versions?



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
  > 
  > 
  > Neil Ward wrote:.
  > 
  > but can anyone think of an example of a book or series in
  > 
  > > which the adult-level content was cut or changed in order to 
  provide a
  > > 'children's version'?
  > 
  > The very word "Bowdlerize" is derived from the name of an English 
  editor,
  > Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825) who published an expurgated Shakespeare 
  (i.e., with
  > the naughty/offensive bits taken out).
  > 
  > Peg

  OF COURSE!!! Peg, You just reminded me of the most famous book of 
  adult material changed to a childrens version.  Charles and Mary 
  Lamb's 'Tales From Shakespeare'.   

  Jim 


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  2 01:11:10 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 02:11:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK, Ireland and now James Joyce! (still OT)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000902011110.007050f8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 754

Catlady, determined to keep me on horribly off-topic topics: 

>Oh, dear! If the political-entity names (Great Britain and United 
>Kingdom) don't include the Isle of Man (altho' I've never heard of it 
>being ruled by a different government -- ... then why isn't Man enough of 
>an entity to rate its own National Team for Quidditch (and Muggle 
>soccer football, but I think that tailless cats and being named after 
>the god Mananaan would lead to a higher porportion of wizard folk in 
>the population of Man than in some other places)?

**************
In fact, the Isle of Man is ruled by its own rather bizarre government, the
Tynwald, and the House of Keys.  As a country, it's certainly odd enough to
be populated entirely by inbred witches and wizards, most of whom would have
three legs under their robes (as the national flag features three legs
joined at the hip).  Manx cats have no tails, as Catlady says, and we might
conclude that these were chopped off as ingredients for some exotic spell or
sold to beefy sailors to make cats-o-ninetails.  I'm not sure there are
enough Manx residents to produce a reasonable Quidditch team. 


Catlady again:

>If I say in future that Hogwarts is the wizarding school for the 
>whole islands of Britain and Ireland, are people going to get on 
>my case about the little isles?  

**************
I think you should list all the islands, right down to Rockall.  Otherwise,
someone, even a seagull in temporary residence on the aforementioned rock,
might take offence.  Clearly, Hogwarts' letters can reach huts on rocks, so
we can assume that the outer islanders are eligible for the school and
included in JKR's mind.


FFA (me) said:

"'Lewisham' is the region where I live.  It is a component of
London, England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, the British 
Isles, the European Union, Europe, the World, the Earth, the Solar
System, the Milky Way, the Universe."

Catlady commented:

>I gather you've been reading up on James Joyce, who is said by Joseph 
>Campbell to have a 'wall' them in FINNEGAN'S WAKE deriving from 
>Stephen Dedalus having written his info (as yours above) on the fly 
>page of a (primary school?) textbook and then stared at it wondering 
>what about the Universe as the final term: does it go on forever or 
>does it come to an end; what could be next to the end of the univrse, 
>a WALL around it?

***************
I did study James Joyce a few years ago and he's a fantastic author if you
consider "Dubliners" and "Portrait of the Artist..."  "Ulysses" is heavy
going.  Finnegan's Wake?  Hell on paper. It was written to be avoided. I
doubt that even James Joyce read "Finnegan's Wake" after he'd penned it. 

I think most children have scribbled something in an exercise book that ends
in "the Universe," without having gone on to consider the limits of the
cosmos - even the boy wizard, Harry Potter (he says, bringing it back on
topic rather uncovincingly). 

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 01:08:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:08:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?
References: <8opj2f+45nl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011c01c0147a$3f154ca0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 755

TY/Bless you!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:53 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: picture books?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:

  > After reading Sandman (no idea the author, sorry folks)

  Neil Gaiman. 


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  2 01:38:55 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:38:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Warners Warning to those with Websites
References: <8oofap+a3l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B05A2F.2E37AE41@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 756



heidi tandy wrote:

> Warner threatens Harry Potter fan sites
> By Graham Lea
> Posted: 09/02/2000 at 12:22 GMT
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/9146.html

I admit to not reading closely! I saw this article today (in the US,
9/1/2000) and I thought - huh! It's supposed to be posted tomorrow! Wonder
why it's up a few hours early?
Not even thinking, even though I know SO well, that it was really posted on
what we in the US call 2/9/2000.
: bangs head against table in shame and disbelief.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 02:11:01 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:11:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why on earth....yahoo rants...(nothing to do with Brooks comments, just liked the Why on earth part!)
References: <8oom0l+j0st@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c01483$0b558840$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 757

EXTREME RANT ALERT!!!!!

Dang that yahell!

Ok.  Logging into yahoo clubs, I hurried my butt in to change a founders' pic in Cakes and Ales, when I discovered yahoo has the bug again.  I am a guest in the club that I am a founder in.  I went immediately to my yahoo clubs main page, and did the "open each club and see thing" to see which clubs I was a guest in and which I still am a member.  Time wasn't a factor this time.  The clubs I have been a member of the longest have me as "guest" while some of the newest clubs have me as "member"...grr.

Final total?  19 clubs have me as guest.  12 have me as member!  I lost 19 clubs!  Half of those I am a founder in!  (BTW, 31 clubs is the yahoo max.)  How can yahoo keep losing me!??  A friend tried to locate me earlier today, and I wasn't thinking--waiting on a ride--when she told me "I wasn't there" anymore in the profile list.  I found that strange, but it's nothing new--I hide on the pager under invisible (so feel free to "IM" me, if I am at the keyboard, I will respond; too many cyberwannabes).  Why does yahoo keep picking on me?  Does this happen to anyone else?  My other accounts don't have this problem (this happens monthly).  Anyone have any ideas why me?

It's beyond annoying now.  It's gotten into irrating, and that's bad.

Grr..
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 03:25:12 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 03:25:12 -0000
Subject: Greek/Egyptian names (was Hermione pronunciation)
In-Reply-To: <8opgfa+ekqh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8opruo+su29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 758

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:
> 
> > Might I add that my own first name is also Greek-derived 
> 
> Originally Egyptian. 'Hebeny' was African blackwood.

<g>  So were many of the other names on my list, but I didn't go 
there.  According to many sources, half of what we now know as 
Hellenistic civilization was originally Egyptian.  But I digress. The 
baby name books have the "Gr." next to my handle, so I go along with 
them.

Ancient Egypt is one of the many historical settings I'd *love* to 
learn more about.  In my junior and senior years of HS, I was an Anne 
Rice fanatic not because of the vampirism, but because of the 
Akasha/Enkil storyline.  I purchased the entire Children of the Lion 
series (by Peter Danielson) from a used bookstore a year ago.  The 
twenty book series collectively is one of the best accounts of 
everyday life in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia that I've ever read.  
And yes, I found a way to incorporate Egypt into the classroom... 
we're doing the unit "Unwrapping Ancient Mysteries" in Jan/Feb.  :)

There's a rumor on Jenna's site about one of the next HP books being 
set partially in ancient Egypt... Gringotts has a branch there 
(someone here said it may be the main bank) and Bill works there so 
it is plausible.  I really, really hope it is true.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 04:04:24 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:04:24 -0000
Subject: HP's Genre Problem
In-Reply-To: <39B03627.87352DB0@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8opu88+c5r8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 759

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> It should be no great surprise that I agree with this, but I think 
the publishers (both Bloomsbury & Scholastic) have to take their fair 
share of the blame.  They've marketed & panned the books as for 
children from the get-go, and of all people involved, *they* (her 
editors in particular) ought to have been well-aware that the series 
wouldn't always be appropriate for 9-12 yr olds.  If they were 
listening to her I guess.

I think I've said this before, but... they probably weren't.

Like I said, it is very difficult for an unknown writer to propose a 
cross-age bracket series.  In '97, '98, and '99 I received area code 
212 phone calls from agents and editors I've queried and sent MSs 
to.  I called everyone in my phone book, purchased champagne... only 
to be given offers that I *had* to refuse.

"I loved the MS.  However, you're going to have to start your series 
out with the characters as adults.  Contemporary African American 
fiction *for adults* is hot right now--not teens.  You don't want to 
mark yourself as a juvenile author."  

"But the book isn't necessarily just for African American teens," I 
always protested.  "It's for anyone who wants to read it."

"Well, Book One is too graphic and complex for a YA novel.  And the 
main characters are too young to appeal to adults.  You'll have to 
cut it--you can use the material in flashbacks."

I have had this conversation three times in as many years.  My 
protests that the collective tale I want to tell *has* to start 
exactly where I began it fall on deaf ears.

Needless to say, I am still not published.

I am sure that JKR may not have wanted to be categorized.  But who 
knew HP would have become a phenomenon?  I am *sure* she didn't slap 
the 9-12 label on her books.  Not if it is true that she originally 
wrote the books "for herself".  But publishers are not writers.  They 
are business people.  When PS was published, someone in marketing 
probably gave the book a glance through, read the summary, noted the 
11 year old protagonist and slapped on the middle grades label.  

I know one thing.  Just like Terry McMillan's *Waiting to Exhale* 
proved that African American women actually bought books, HP proved 
something that publishers never believed before:  adults will read a 
book with protagonists who are not adults.

Thanks to both of them, my climb up the Alpine Path's a little 
easier.  

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep  2 04:05:11 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 23:05:11 -0500
Subject: Gaiman, Potter, Anime
References: <967858829.8264@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B07C77.8F12E90F@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 760

1) Gaiman probably COULD do a Harry potter adaptation - after all, he
did an English language adaptation for Princess Mononoke, part of which
actually survived into the movie.
It would certainly be dejavu for him, what with the Books of Magic and
Tim Hunter discovering he is destined to be a poiwerful magician - if he
chooses. 

2) Neil/FFA or other UK residents, what did you think of _Neverwhere_,
assuming you saw it?  That was Gaiman's writing.

3) Aside from being the push that convinced me to go ahead and get the
first Harry Potter book, it was also Vicki who introdcued me to Gaiman
and his increadible creation,  Morpheus: the Sandman, also known as
Dream - and his Sister, who is everyone's very first friend - and
everyone's last friend as well.  I am forever in Vicki's debt. :-)

4) The comics-on-paper version of Anime is called manga.  Sometimes
manga are created to tie into original anime (and such an anime show
created outright is called an OVA, for Original Video Animation); other
times it is an existing manga story is turned into an anime.

5) In some ways I think the closest Western comic to the idea of manga
is Tintin.  Is anyone else here a Tintin fan?

6) I have to disagree on the idolizing of Anime adaptations though.  The
Anime _Lensman_ was interesting, but only barely resembled the original
novels; it had somewhat more resemblance than the Beast Master movie did
to Andre Norton's _The Beast Master_ novel, but that is about the best
you can say of it.  Further it was a rather serious intellectual
property violation as it was done without permission and without
royalties to Doc Smith's surviving (at that time) daughter who had the estate.

By the way, Dee, it is just _Robot Carnival_, not _The Robot Carnival_ .
I've seen it, some parts are fun.

-Brooks



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 04:07:19 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:07:19 -0000
Subject: more fanfic cliches
In-Reply-To: <8ophih+1rh5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8opudn+maf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 761

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> 
> > -Harry has a twin sister, usually named Rose.
> 
> Why Rose?

You know... Rose... Lily... continuing with the whole flower names 
thing.

Another cliche I just thought of is when Harry's kid has some absurd 
name that neither he nor JKR would ever subject it to.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Sep  2 04:25:03 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:25:03 -0000
Subject: database
Message-ID: <8opvev+ers3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 762

The e-groups database facility works nicely.  I've created a small 
database of names from the French edition (book 2). Anyone who speaks 
french, please amplify any inadequate translations...

JF




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 04:38:31 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:38:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mini-me in HP movie
Message-ID: <20000902043832.3583.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 763

> I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of
> the 
> Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie. 
> So much 
> for casting only British unknowns...
> ~Kaitlin
> 


What? Not as Flitwick?  <g>

Melanie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 05:01:22 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More about Hermione's name
Message-ID: <20000902050122.5368.qmail@web4805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 764

All this Hermione name-talk prompted me to look up her name in
"The Last Word on First Names" by Linda Rosenkrantz and Pamela
Redmond Satran (published in 1995).  Here's how they weighed in
on the name:

     This Greek name of the mythic daughter of Helen of
     Troy might be completely extinct were it not for
     Shakespeare (The Winter's Tale) and the British
     Hermione Gringold.  In any case, it's hardly ever
     been heard in [the United States] and we doubt it
     ever will be.


Famous last words, huh?

Melanie


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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 05:22:41 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:22:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Slambooks at Hogwarts
Message-ID: <20000902052241.20776.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 765

> Does anyone remember 'slam books' where everyone would
> get a notebook, write a bunch of categories and vote
> for who in the class/group/school best fit them, 
> or had a page for each person and people would swap
> books and write their opinions of the peron?  Not always
> the nicest of activities and I'm surprised a college
> would resort to it....wonder if Hogwarts has 
> had/will have anything like that in the future?


I can't see Hogwarts sponsoring slam books (any more than muggle
junior highs, middle schools, or the equivalent).  I can,
however, easily picture someone starting one "unofficially," and
the fad catching on.  A Hogwarts-aged Rita Skeeter immediately
comes to mind.  Or how about Pansy Parkinson, or even Lavender
or Parvati.

I'm trying to picture what magical properties it might have.  A
Truth Pen (forget the tact!) for example.

Hmmm, the possibliites.


Melanie, who remembers a much more benign (if boring) slam book,
including favorite actor/actress, favorite movie, etc.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 05:51:30 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] NYTimes Bestseller List Again
Message-ID: <20000902055130.7717.qmail@web4801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 766


--- Joywitch  <joym999 at aol.com> wrote:
> Just a thought - If Scholastic started publishing 2 editions
> of the 
> HP books the way Bloomsbury does (one for adults and one for
> children 
> where the only difference is the cover), would the Times then
> track 
> sales of the adult version on the regular list and the
> childrens 
> version on the childrens list?
> 


That would be nice, but somehow, I doubt.  They'd probably find
a way to squirm out of it.

Melanie  (My 2 knutes)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From drmm at Juno.com  Sat Sep  2 05:48:52 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:48:52 -0500
Subject: Anime
Message-ID: <20000902.004855.-267441.2.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 767

>From: "Denise" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
>
<<I am a huge fan of anime, in an amateur sort of way.  I own two movies
(:() but am seeking more:  Robotech, Starblazers, and The Robot Carnival,
or something along those lines as a title.>>

If you live in the U.S. there's a wonderful on-line anime store:
www.animenation.com if you're interested in buying comercially released
anime.  If you're looking for fan subtitled anime I reccomend Kodocha
Anime: http://www.animemetropolis.com/kodocha/.  If you live in the UK. .
. . er, can't help there :)

Robotech is going to be re-released on video sometime (from Animeigo
www.animeigo.com I think)...and I think they're doing a Robotech 3000 or
something.  Incidentally, Robotech was spliced together from three
seperate anime series to form a somewhat coherant series in the US.  The
main one was an anime series called Macross.

>What do I own?  Akira and Vampire Hunter D, of course--the most
commercialized >movies!

Hum, I've never seen either of these although I've heard of them and you
know, I'm pretty sure they're doing another Vampire Hunter D movie in
Japan. . . .

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Irresponsible Captain Tyler
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From drmm at Juno.com  Sat Sep  2 05:41:29 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:41:29 -0500
Subject: OT: Anime (Was: Re: Picture Books)
Message-ID: <20000902.004854.-267441.1.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 768

>From: Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
>
>Ooops! Terribly sorry, Dr MM.  Actually, I wasn't talking about
animation or
>anime, I was thinking about illustrated books in the same style, but I
>expect I still sinned by calling the artists 'cartoonists'.  You know, I
>should have learned my lesson by now, since one of my brothers lectures
on
>animation and gets rattled when I tell people that he "watches cartoons
for
>a living" (in my cheeky, big-brotherly way).  

Hehehe, no big deal :)  I just had to say something. . . and btw, I envy
your brother. . . What a fun job that would be :)

>So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the comic
book
>equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be called
>illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime
illustrators? 

The "comic book" equivalents are called "manga".  However, unlike U.S.
comic books they aren't short fifteen page things and are rarely (if
ever) in color.  They're basically graphic novels.  As for what the
creators are called. . . I'm not sure.  I usually call them manga artists
or illustrators or something like that.  They might have a term in
Japanese that I don't know though.

>Continuing this very large OT aside about anime, the Sci-Fi Channel here
>just had a whole week of anime features.  I only saw bits, but I loved
the
>style.  I've also watched the Pokemon cartoons, sorry, ahem - anime -
and
>they seemed like kids' stuff in comparison.  

Pokemon, IMO (and probably in most anime fans opinions), is an inferior
subset of anime, barely worthy to don the name.  But Pokemon *was*
intended for a children's audience in Japan, so in a way, you're right. 
One of the interesting things about anime is there are so many different
genre's of anime.  There's the traditional shonen (guys) / shoujo (girls)
anime distinction, but there's also anime aimed at different age groups. 
Card Captor Sakura (now airing as Cardcaptors -- edited of course -- on
Kids WB) is shoujo but it's also more for children than adults (although,
that doesn't stop adults like me from adoring it).  An anime series like
Marmalade Boy is shoujo, but as it's a high school romance (rather soap
opera-ish) it's more for teenagers than children.  Pokemon is probably
considered shonen, but it's for younger kids, whereas a shonen title like
Ninja Scroll (one of the few anime's I absolutely despised) is for adults
(or maybe older teenage boys).  And then there's the "creators on crack"
type of metaphysical questioning anime's like Evangelion, Serial
Experiments Lain and Ghost in the Shell. . . . 

And of course, I must mention the *master* of Japanese animation: Hayao
Miyazaki.  He's frequently called the Disney of Japan (and his plots are
*far* superior to Disney's IMO) and until recently his work held the
Japanese box office record (inexplicably, Titanic beat it -- although,
Titanic surpassed many far superior works in the US too. . .).  

Blech.  I'm getting terribly long-winded right now so I'll shut up :)  I
tend to go long when talking about my favorite hobby. . . .

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Irresponsible Captain Tyler
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 07:40:55 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 07:40:55 -0000
Subject: database
In-Reply-To: <8opvev+ers3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oqau7+oljt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 769

Jim wrote:

<<The e-groups database facility works nicely.  I've created a small  
database of names from the French edition (book 2). Anyone who speaks 
french, please amplify any inadequate translations...>>

My French is nothing special, but I've added some more names to the 
database, this time from PoA.  Again, there are some gaps in the 
translations for French-speakers to fill in.  

~Blaise.  




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep  2 08:10:38 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:10:38 +0200
Subject: [OT] Potter manga-fied, mangaka, fanfic cliches, etc.
Message-ID: <004401c014b5$48515620$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 770

> -Ron decides he's gay, gets various parts of his body pierced, and 
has a boyfriend named Nicky. 

>Why Nicky? (btw, LOL.)

Er, the first one who did this was FuBar, an author who had a reputation for writing vulgar satire...somehow, she accumulated a bunch of FuBaresque authors who imitated her writing. And they all called Ron's boyfriend 'Nicky'. Oh, well...apparently, FuBar has reformed, but I was on vacation when it happened, so I don't know.

<So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the comic book
equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be called
illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime illustrators? >

<The "comic book" equivalents are called "manga".  However, unlike U.S.
comic books they aren't short fifteen page things and are rarely (if
ever) in color.  They're basically graphic novels.  As for what the
creators are called. . . I'm not sure.  I usually call them manga artists
or illustrators or something like that.  They might have a term in
Japanese that I don't know though.>

Manga (pronounced 'mahn-ga', and there is no plural so don't even try - sorry, touchy subject) are basically small, graphic paperbacks, if you will...200 pages is a good estimate. Each volume has anywhere from 5-7/8 chapters, which generally first come out in weekly installments in an anime magazine - Shounen Jump and Shoujo Jump are the most famous - before being collected into the manga. Manga artists are called Mangaka.

Or at least, they were. Last summer, my brother was manga-shopping in Tokyo (he's an otaku/manga expert even by Japanese standards - scary, no?), and when he asked a clerk where the manga were, the guy gave him a blank look for a second, and said, 'Manga?' in a sort of 'What are you talking about voice?'. Then he smiled, and said, 'Ah, Komiku!' and promptly led my bro to the manga section. 

<One of the interesting things about anime is there are so many different
genre's of anime.  There's the traditional shonen (guys) / shoujo (girls)
anime distinction, but there's also anime aimed at different age groups. 
Card Captor Sakura (now airing as Cardcaptors -- edited of course -- on
Kids WB) is shoujo but it's also more for children than adults (although,
that doesn't stop adults like me from adoring it).  An anime series like
Marmalade Boy is shoujo, but as it's a high school romance (rather soap
opera-ish) it's more for teenagers than children.  Pokemon is probably
considered shonen, but it's for younger kids, whereas a shonen title like
Ninja Scroll (one of the few anime's I absolutely despised) is for adults
(or maybe older teenage boys).  And then there's the "creators on crack"
type of metaphysical questioning anime's like Evangelion, Serial
Experiments Lain and Ghost in the Shell. . . . >

Incidentally, even if 'shounen' is for guys and 'shoujo' is for girls, each genre is perfectly cross-gender - I like both. Incidentally, I happen to be a very big fan of Card Captor Sakura, and it is not just for kids - the series is a lot lighter than, say, X/1999, done by the same mangaka team, and which was very good but very violent - but there are a bunch of homosexual characters from the start, people do get wounded with actual blood, I get the distinct impression that the story is getting progressively darker (I'm on manga volume 4 at the moment, so I'm sort of guessing), etc. Oh, and it has a bunch of rabid college-age fans, from what I can tell. Actually, this is beginning to sound a bit like HP - minus the homosexual part (although that's open to debate...).

<And of course, I must mention the *master* of Japanese animation: Hayao
Miyazaki.  He's frequently called the Disney of Japan (and his plots are
*far* superior to Disney's IMO) and until recently his work held the
Japanese box office record (inexplicably, Titanic beat it -- although,
Titanic surpassed many far superior works in the US too. . .).>

My Neighbor Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, and Princess Mononoke are his most famous movies in the States, I think. Actually, Disney bought the international rights to Mononoke so that they could shelve it for three years - they didn't want the competition.

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep  2 08:12:59 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:12:59 +0200
Subject: [OT] Sorry, forgot about Potter manga-fied
Message-ID: <004d01c014b5$9bbc0300$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 771

Right. Anyway, I think HP manga-fied would be quite interesting, although I hope they won't do it like they did the Star Wars manga (which is horrid). So I'm sort of torn - I wouldn't mind seeing HP in that sort of formatat all, but on the other hand, then all my efforts to draw HP manga-style myself will go to waste...::mock-sniffle::.

~Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  2 08:59:41 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:59:41 +0100
Subject: Manga and comics
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000902085941.0070f5b8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 772

Thanks to all those who responded to my questions about anime.  Just to
confirm my own stupidity on the subject, I had heard of manga [which Brits
would pronounce man-ga], and even knew what it was, but wasn't able to close
that loop in my brain last night.  One of my favourite bands, Urusei
Yatsura, is named after a manga/anime character - a sort of Veela in a
leopard-skin bikini (I just *know* someone is going to correct me on that) -
and it's been quite trendy to wear tight t-shirts with big-eyed manga
characters on the front. Okay, this was obviously a very distant awareness I
had...

For anyone who is interested in manga and comics when in London, I'd suggest
going to Forbidden Planet in New Oxford Street.  It's a science fiction
bookshop, but it has a floor devoted to comics and also deals in sci-fi
paraphernalia, such as 'paint-your-own Yoda' model kits.  Only go there if
you think US$25 is reasonable for a t-shirt. Hmmm, I must see if they've
stretched their genre as far as Harry Potter.

A while back, in our old Y! homestead, we were talking about the fact that
JKR vetted all the Americanisms in the US books and supported these changes
because she wanted everyone (I think she said "every child," cough,
splutter) to have the same experience.  She/the publishers felt that it
might be spoilt if the reader had to stumble over 'dustbins' and
'pavements'.  If this anime/manga phenomenon is *so* huge in Japan, it would
seem a logical vehicle for Harry Potter over there, especially as the
violent scenes, rather than seeming out of place, will seem true to the genre. 

I'm not a comic fan, but I'm now going to check out some manga stuff (and
Sandman).  See what you've done to me?

Neil, who just about resisted a joke about the Isle of Manga.
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Sep  2 09:53:08 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:53:08 -0000
Subject: Phonemics after Midnight
In-Reply-To: <20000902050122.5368.qmail@web4805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8oqim4+he2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 773

I was already very familiar with the name Hermione, from the two 
actresses and from old movies.  I have always heard it 
pronounced "her-mi-nee" (except perhaps in 1930s-era English drawing-
room movies in which the actors all spoke as if they had the Union 
Jack stuck up their a***).  

"Hermione" can said as three syllables instead of four if -io- is 
taken as a dipthong (two pure vowels spoken rapidly together, for 
example: "I" = ah-ee) or a tripthong.  

If the -io- is taken as the tripthong ah-ee-o, the sound could be 
approximated in rapid speech by saying "ah" while closing the lips 
down quickly to an "o" shape.  This may be what Jim Dale is saying on 
the tapes.

Forgive me -- it's very late here.

-JF






From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep  2 09:59:32 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:59:32 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Manga and comics
References: <1.5.4.32.20000902085941.0070f5b8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <005c01c014c4$7e63f740$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 774

Actually, there are plenty of manga that aren't violent at all - it's not a genre thing. Think of it like movie ratings. Although I'm glad to hear that we otaku have intrigued you. ^_^ <== Japanese smiley, btw.

Also, Harry Potter is actually quite popular in Japan - they have an official fan club, I think. Last time I checked, though, the first one was the only one out - that was several months ago, though.

~Firebolt
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:59 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Manga and comics



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Thanks to all those who responded to my questions about anime.  Just to
  confirm my own stupidity on the subject, I had heard of manga [which Brits
  would pronounce man-ga], and even knew what it was, but wasn't able to close
  that loop in my brain last night.  One of my favourite bands, Urusei
  Yatsura, is named after a manga/anime character - a sort of Veela in a
  leopard-skin bikini (I just *know* someone is going to correct me on that) -
  and it's been quite trendy to wear tight t-shirts with big-eyed manga
  characters on the front. Okay, this was obviously a very distant awareness I
  had...

  For anyone who is interested in manga and comics when in London, I'd suggest
  going to Forbidden Planet in New Oxford Street.  It's a science fiction
  bookshop, but it has a floor devoted to comics and also deals in sci-fi
  paraphernalia, such as 'paint-your-own Yoda' model kits.  Only go there if
  you think US$25 is reasonable for a t-shirt. Hmmm, I must see if they've
  stretched their genre as far as Harry Potter.

  A while back, in our old Y! homestead, we were talking about the fact that
  JKR vetted all the Americanisms in the US books and supported these changes
  because she wanted everyone (I think she said "every child," cough,
  splutter) to have the same experience.  She/the publishers felt that it
  might be spoilt if the reader had to stumble over 'dustbins' and
  'pavements'.  If this anime/manga phenomenon is *so* huge in Japan, it would
  seem a logical vehicle for Harry Potter over there, especially as the
  violent scenes, rather than seeming out of place, will seem true to the genre. 

  I'm not a comic fan, but I'm now going to check out some manga stuff (and
  Sandman).  See what you've done to me?

  Neil, who just about resisted a joke about the Isle of Manga.
              Flying-Ford-Anglia

  *****************************************

     "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
     the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
     its rear lights blazing angrily"

  [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

  *****************************************




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  2 11:01:18 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:01:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phonemics after Midnight
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000902110118.00702b98@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 775

At 09:53 09/02/2000 -0000, you wrote:

>I was already very familiar with the name Hermione, from the two 
>actresses and from old movies.  I have always heard it 
>pronounced "her-mi-nee" (except perhaps in 1930s-era English drawing-
>room movies in which the actors all spoke as if they had the Union 
>Jack stuck up their a***).  

Ouch! On that last point, I hope you mean as in 'Her-MY-OH-knee', rather
than 'Her-MYA-knee'?  Otherwise, I have an uncomfortable life ahead of me in
my 1930s drawing-room.

>"Hermione" can said as three syllables instead of four if -io- is 
>taken as a dipthong (two pure vowels spoken rapidly together, for 
>example: "I" = ah-ee) or a tripthong.  
>
>If the -io- is taken as the tripthong ah-ee-o, the sound could be 
>approximated in rapid speech by saying "ah" while closing the lips 
>down quickly to an "o" shape.  This may be what Jim Dale is saying on 
>the tapes.

Thanks for posting that.  The term is actually 'diphthong' (pronounced
diff-thong) and I assume you extrapolated to tripthong, but it sort of
works!  You're absolutely right in your explanation, IMO, and this fits in
with my earlier post about the word medieval and UK/US differences (and all
the rest of the Hermy-One posts back in Yahoo HP4GU). 

It's amazing what I've learned in this club.  Until recently, I had confused
diphthongs with digraphs, the latter being where two letters combine to form
a single sound, e.g. 'ea' in head. What you're proposing for Hermione could
almost count as a 'trigraph' (I guess I made that one up).

Neil, being a total pedant (note: the 'ei' is actually a diphthong but can
be said as a digraph 'ee').

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From warmsley at btinternet.com  Sat Sep  2 11:04:40 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:04:40 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gaiman, Potter, Anime
Message-ID: <01c014cd$9718a5c0$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 776

>5) In some ways I think the closest Western comic to the idea
of manga
>is Tintin.  Is anyone else here a Tintin fan?
>


Yes! I have almost everyone in french - my mum's french - and
they are pretty cool. The French (well, in this case its
belgian, but who cares?) do that sort of thing pretty well -
Lucky Luke is worth checking out too, and there are loads of
other things along the same line.

Jeremy




From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Sep  2 11:58:26 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 07:58:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanfic Clich=?US-ASCII?Q?=82s?=
Message-ID: <200009021202.e82C2Fv03749@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 777

Ooo, you made me think of a couple I had forgotten:

Hermione has "cinnamon" eyes (I blame Mena for the propagation of that one)
Hermione, Lavendar, and Ginny marry Harry Ron, and Draco (why always Draco and 
never Neville?) and each couple has a kid (all the same age of course) The 
three kids go to Hogwarts together and solve mysteries, fight evil, etc.

Kathy


>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at egroups.com =====
>
>Hello:
>
>Well, I've finally wangled time away from homework, practices, and
>angry guidance counselors to catch up on the posts.  I promise that I
>will not rant about how much misery my sophomore year is certain to
>hold-- let it suffice to say that not even a Mommy-ordained schedule
>change from Algebra 2 to Honors Junior Analytical Pre-Calc is enough
>compensation for the sheer volume of morons I must deal with in my
>other classes.  AUUGH!
>
>More clich?s:
>
>Harry and Hermione have a daughter who is the most powerful witch in
>history.
>
>Someone finds deep, hidden meaning in a Britney Spears lyric.
>
>Herm is decribed as "gazing into his incredible emerald eyes".
>
>The Astronomy Tower is mentioned as a hot makeout spot.
>
>The scrappy, plucky American exchange student puts in an appearance.
>
>Two words: Random Dance.
>
>*
>--Alicia/Sue "Tongue Planted Firmly in Cheek" Spinnet
>
>"Is that a chicken fry in your pocket, or are you just happy to see
>me?" --good pal Jeff Kowalzek
>
>Last Movie Seen: "The Opposite of Sex"
>Discman's Spinning: "You've Come a Long Way, Baby", Fatboy Slim
>Current Book: "Honor Among Thieves", Jeffrey Archer
>*
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep  2 12:05:57 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:05:57 +0200
Subject: [OT] Tintin
References: <01c014cd$9718a5c0$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <006201c014d6$27333c80$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 778

Yes, Tintin rocks! I have nearly all the books (in English, we got most of them before anyone besides my mother was capable of actually reading the original French). Lucky Luke is pretty good, I also like Asterix (Asterix is the best!), the Smurfs/Schtroumpfs, and that one which is sort of related to the Smurfs...the one about that tall black haired guy and the really short blond midget...Johan and Pilou? Something like that...oh, well.

~Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Sep  2 12:03:13 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 08:03:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: more fanfic cliches
Message-ID: <200009021207.e82C71v04171@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 779

>Another cliche I just thought of is when Harry's kid has some absurd
>name that neither he nor JKR would ever subject it to.


Yeah! Like Saffron.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  2 13:32:54 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:32:54 -0400
Subject: somewhat OT: Gaiman
References: <967858829.8264@egroups.com> <39B07C77.8F12E90F@indy.net>
Message-ID: <39B10186.8D0D7C87@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 780



"Brooks A. Rowlett" wrote:

> 2) Neil/FFA or other UK residents, what did you think of _Neverwhere_,
> assuming you saw it?  That was Gaiman's writing.

My husband, the seriously obsessive comic book collector, thought he introduced me
to Gaiman, while we were dating, when he started me reading the Sandman series,
but I had actually discovered his first 2 books on my own in high school &
college. Neil Gaiman wrote a book called DON'T PANIC - the authorized story of
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy back in the late 80's, when he was still being a
journalist (in the UK, it's at
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852864117/qid=967901179/sr=1-2/026-4534433-1111615
- not available in the US, but the amazon page on it is at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671664263/qid=967901210/sr=1-8/103-1149154-6478230)

He also wrote a terrifically funny book with Terry Pratchett called Good Omens
about how the son of satan turns out to be a really nice kid - there's some
interesting subplot stuff about witch-finders, Ley Lines (see diagon alLEY) and
the problem with making perfectly accurate predictions hundreds of year ahead of
time (why predict Do Not Buy Beytamacks in the 1600's?) - the US version is at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441003257/qid=967901268/sr=1-1/103-1149154-6478230
and the UK version is at
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0552137030/qid=967901401/sr=1-1/026-4534433-1111615)

Adam, the Son of Satan in the book, is what gives me hope that Draco won't turn
out to be as sociopathic as his father. But then again, I have my own set of
theories about Draco's homelife (none of which constitute a healthy household)
which I may save until Draco Week in the list discussions


I do also recommend Neverwhere (a novel, NOT a graphic novel) for those who like
novels involving magic and the London Underground, and although I didn't
personally like Stardust that much, I know others who did, and if you like the
rest of Gaiman's stuff, it's worth a whirl as well (but if you don't like reading
comic book style books, you can get a "text' version of it which is at least a
worthy read)




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Sep  2 14:24:12 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:24:12 -0000
Subject: Phonemics after Midnight
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000902110118.00702b98@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8or2ic+s2vl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 781

Here's a web site that has good info on triphthongs in English:

www.stir.ac.uk/departments/humansciences/celt/staff/higdox/stephen
/phono/glossar.htm

Be sure to use the full URL.  Click on the term that you are 
interested in.

In the discussion of the term Triphthong, the closest example to 
the  -io- in "Hermione" may be "liar" which has the I-uh (ah-ee-uh) 
sound.

-JF




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  2 14:56:39 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 14:56:39 -0000
Subject: Manga and comics
In-Reply-To: <005c01c014c4$7e63f740$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8or4f7+7728@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 782

I'm sorry if I've missed this point during this thread, but all of a 
sudden there were lots of messages to go through.

Does the phrase Classics Illustrated mean anything to anyone?  Lots 
of years ago I got my introduction to an awful lot of literature 
through this medium - all the Charles Dickens, Jack London, and, of 
course Herman Melville whose Moby Dick I last saw in Classic 
Illustrated form in the film Major League!  

Ladybird Books (mostly catering for pre-school and early school 
readers) also have done versions of adult fiction - we have the 
Ladybird version of Dracula, condenses Bram Stoker's book from the 
size of  Goblet of Fire to about 16 pages half of which are taken up 
by pictures.

However, when I think of the visual images included in television 
news broadcasts - even those around the children's TV slot in the 
afternoon - JKR is going to have to get very dark indeed to match 
that sort of stuff!

Pam




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  2 16:13:14 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:13:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanfic =?iso-8859-1?Q?Clich=C7s?=
Message-ID: <v02140b9db5d6d6f02d5a@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 783

>
>Ooo, you made me think of a couple I had forgotten:
>
>Hermione has "cinnamon" eyes (I blame Mena for the propagation of that one)
>Hermione, Lavendar, and Ginny marry Harry Ron, and Draco (why always Draco and
>never Neville?) and each couple has a kid (all the same age of course) The
>three kids go to Hogwarts together and solve mysteries, fight evil, etc.
>
I blame Mena for a lot of things.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "More Machine Now than Man"  Summers

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "Best of Friends" Loggins and Messina
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From befell at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 15:56:30 2000
From: befell at yahoo.com (befell at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:56:30 -0000
Subject: Books after Harry
Message-ID: <8or7ve+74l3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 784

I was catching up on about 300 posts last night, and noticed you 
talking about books to read after Harry Potter. I was just curious to 
know if anyone has mentioned the Redwall books by Brian Jacques. They 
are actually very well writen, for children's books, and I enjoyed 
them. Also any of the Dragonlance books? They are pretty serious 
fantasy, but I like them. And finally, I can't leve the table without 
mentioning my most favorite book in the world (which, unfortunately, 
has nothing in common with Harry Potter) A Canticle for Leibowitz by 
Walter M. Miller. Wonderful book, though it is more science fiction. 
Well, there is my two cents, enjoy it!

Bri




From recla at magick.net  Sat Sep  2 16:07:00 2000
From: recla at magick.net (Prof.  Dumbledore)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:07:00 -0000
Subject: Manga and comics
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000902085941.0070f5b8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8or8j4+2t7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 785

I stopped by there (Forbidden Planet while wandering around in 
London, looking for a gift for my son (comic addict-he got it from 
Dad).  Didn't see any HP stuff at that time, but as thing become 
available, I'm sure it will show up there. You were right, the prices 
were a little high. (Actually it's around the corner on New Oxford 
from the Leaky Cauldron)

Regarding a HP Comic, I really dont' expect to see one until the 
Movie comes out.  Once the movie is done, there will be some 
characters for the artists to use in the comic.  This tends to be the 
common practice unless there are established characters, like batman, 
or superman.  After the movie or right before will be released the 
short form of the movie produced in a comic book.  It will follow the 
movie and not necessarily the book.  Following that, the comics might 
venture into new territory and stories.  I think this is usually done 
since the movie company dosen't want to conflict with the character 
art and the character in the movie. i.e. comic book is not like the 
movie, and dissapointing to viewers.  



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Thanks to all those who responded to my questions about anime.  > 
For anyone who is interested in manga and comics when in London, I'd 
suggest
> going to Forbidden Planet in New Oxford Street.  It's a science 
fiction
> bookshop, but it has a floor devoted to comics and also deals in 
sci-fi
> paraphernalia, such as 'paint-your-own Yoda' model kits.  Only go 
there if
> you think US$25 is reasonable for a t-shirt. Hmmm, I must see if 
they've
> stretched their genre as far as Harry Potter.




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Sep  2 16:09:39 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:09:39 -0000
Subject: Any Casting News??
Message-ID: <8or8o3+plji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 786

Please post any rumors about HP movie casting that you hear, or the 
URL of any websites that carry such rumors.  Respond in this thread, 
or at least indicate in the subject that the message contains a 
casting rumor.

I'll try to find pictures and put them in a new directory in the 
Files area.  I've just posted four pix of Verne Troyer.

Thanks
JF




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  2 16:53:59 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:53:59 -0000
Subject: Hermione
Message-ID: <8orbb7+g3f0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 787

I don't actually know the song itself, but I am pretty sure there is 
a fairly well-known David Bowie song called "Letters to Hermione."  I 
always think of that when reading about "our" Hermione.
By the way, is it "Her-mee-ow-nee" or "Her-my-ow-nee"?  I knew from 
the beginning that there were four syllables, and I was mentally 
pronouncing it "Her-mee-ow-nee".  But my sister insists it's "Her-my-
ow-nee",




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep  2 17:17:43 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:17:43 -0500
Subject: Musings on loyalty (long)
Message-ID: <39B13637.F5681AF1@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 788

Have been thinking about what the books have to say about loyalty. Quite
a lot, actually.

It occurred to me recently that one reason (among many) that Rowling
included the whole house elf subplot was that it was both a
foreshadowing and an ironic commentary on the scene between Voldemort
and the Deatheaters in the graveyard. Think about it: isn't there
something rather similar between Winky, groveling at the Quidditch match
while Crouch, Sr., says "I have no use for a house elf who disobeys me"
and Wormtail groveling before Voldemort, as Voldemort taunts him that
perhaps he isn't loyal enough.  Loyalty, as demonstrated between Harry,
Ron, Hermione, Sirius, the Weasley family, and Dumbldore is highly
valued--but the house elf plot, like the story of Voldemort and his
followers is included to warn us: "Be careful: if you wish to give your
loyalty to someone, be sure that they deserve it."

What is the difference between loyalty as demonstrated Our Team (Harry
and his friends)
versus as demonstrated by the Other team 1) the house elfs and their
masters (all the masters we've seen are dark wizards and 2) the Other
Team (Voldemort and his followers?)

Well, on Our Team, loyalty is reciprocal (meaning it goes both ways),
and it is flows between people who consider themselves to be equals.
Harry helps Ron and Hermione, knowing that they, in turn will help him.
This is demonstrated perhaps most effectively when Harry recognizes that
since he and Cedric have helped each other, they are equals, and he
acknowledges this by suggesting that they take the Triwizard cup
together. Loyalty is demanded, but not in the nature of a one-up,
one-down relationship, but because people on Our Team are responsible
for each other and look out for one another. Remember Hagrid scolding
Ron and Harry in PoA for snubbing Hermione: "I thought you two would
value your friend more'n broomsticks or rats." And remember what Sirius
said to Wormtail, when Wormtail protested that he had to betray James
and Lily (turn his back on his loyalties) to save himself:

Wormtail: "He would have killed me, Sirius!"

Sirius: "Then you should have died--died rather than betrayed your
friends AS WE WOULD
HAVE DONE FOR YOU."

On the Other Team, however, loyalty is definitely not reciprocal.
Remember in the first book
when Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort left Quirrel to die: "He
shows just as little mercy
to his followers as his enemies." The house elf masters that we have
seen (Malfoy, Crouch)
consider loyalty as something they demand from their servants, but do
not seem to think they
owe anything to their house elves in return. Voldemort, too, when the
death eaters come,
scolds them for how they has let him down, and punish some, cruelly. But
although he gives
Wormtail back a hand, my impression is that everyone understands that
all the giving is going
to flow toward Voldemort, not the other way around--unless he decides to
reward his
follows on a whim. Note, too, that the Deatheaters return this "loyalty"
of Voldemort's with
coin just about as false. They come back to him out of fear, or because
he can offer them
scope for depraved pleasures--not because they think, "By gum, my friend
Voldemort is in a
spot of trouble, and he needs me, and I know he's always stuck up for me
before." Others,
observing the characters of these Death eaters, note that their loyalty
is false. Karkaroff and
Wormtail, for example, both guage their loyalty to Voldemort by
calculating first and foremost
what's in it for them.

Other thoughts: it was something about loyalty, or more specifically,
about choosing sides, that led to the first falling out between Draco
and Harry.  Remember the scene on the train, first year: Draco wanted
Harry to join "his side" and appealed to him to avoid Ron and others of
that ilk.

Draco: "You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better
than others, Potter.  You don't want to go making friends with the wrong
sort.  I can help you there."

Harry: "I think I can tell who are the wrong sort for myself, thanks."

The whole Mudblood story line is also about loyalty: which side will you
stand with?  Purebloods only, or all wizards, including Mudbloods?

Look at how much dramatic mileage Rowling gets out of many characters
like Quirrel, Moody and Krum, Karkaroff, Fudge and Snape, where a big
part of the plot (and the surprises) hinges on: where does this person's
loyalty truly lie?

Think about the implications of the students being sorted into four
houses, and the interhouse competition, and the Triwizard tournament.
Rowling is doing a lot in these books about loyalty, competition, about
assessing who is on your side, trusting, betrayal, etc.

I could go on in this vein but will probably stop here for now.
Comments?




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 17:59:57 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:59:57 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
References: <8ooh62+nibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c01507$9fb0eaa0$9071023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 789

> Oh, no!  I hope this doesn't shut Jenna down... my students *love*
> her site and she's done so much for the fandom.  She needs some legal
> advice just in case.  Are any of our lawyers in contact with her.
>

That reminds me of something important.  Two somethings, actually.  (1)
Jenna mentioned that she needs more "board prefects"--or moderators at the
fan board she runs on her site.  Drop her a line if your interested in
pitching in a hand.  I think she'd appreciate some more grownups in there.
Just think of it as a sort of HP-community service we could do to expiate
some of our less responsible moments in the HP4GU!  (Said by a parson posing
as a goat ... )

(2) Jenna also has a couple of links that earn her two cents per click.  One
of them is http://www.2000freebies.com/?AID=516568&PID=511877 .  I'm not
sure whether this is entirely kosher, but I've entered it as my home page,
so that I visit it every time I fire up iexplorer.  I reckon, if enough
people would do that, she could make a lot of money--which I think she
should.

Jenna's done a remarkable service to us Potterheads.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 18:37:05 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 18:37:05 -0000
Subject: A bit of confusion (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts)
In-Reply-To: <20000902052241.20776.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8orhch+pju0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 790

>>I'm trying to picture what magical properties it might have.  A
>>Truth Pen (forget the tact!) for example.

It would probably be called an "Anti-Lying Quill," knowing how JKR 
names things. :)
Which leads me to the following question:  Why do the people at 
Hogwarts use quills, ink and parchment if they are in the twentieth 
century?  Just curious.

~Kaitlin 





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 18:48:21 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:48:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mini-me in HP movie
References: <20000902043832.3583.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c0150e$5e901440$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 791

Melanie,
That sounds like a good matchup!  Thanks for the idea -- now if Columbus gets the idea too?

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Melanie Moore 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Mini-me in HP movie



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  > I read in Entertainment Weekly that Verne Troyer, "Mini-me" of
  > the 
  > Austin Power movie, will be playing a ghoul in the HP movie. 
  > So much 
  > for casting only British unknowns...
  > ~Kaitlin
  > 


  What? Not as Flitwick?  <g>

  Melanie


  __________________________________________________
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
  http://mail.yahoo.com/

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 19:34:30 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 15:34:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] somewhat OT: Gaiman
References: <967858829.8264@egroups.com> <39B07C77.8F12E90F@indy.net> <39B10186.8D0D7C87@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <014b01c01514$d1057960$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 792

Isn't Neverwhere that BBS series where the underground is literally an underground, and some poor soul in a brown outfit (very ordinary) is "transported" into the other world.  I vaguely recall pieces--PBS didn't continue with it (like Dr. Who :( !!!) --like a Amazon like beautiful black woman with a spear and a torque, and literally drawing a door on a wall and stepping through it?   There was also some sorta of angel?

I will have to seek out the book form, if it is!  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: heidi 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 9:32 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] somewhat OT: Gaiman



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  




  "Brooks A. Rowlett" wrote:

  > 2) Neil/FFA or other UK residents, what did you think of _Neverwhere_,
  > assuming you saw it?  That was Gaiman's writing.

  My husband, the seriously obsessive comic book collector, thought he introduced me
  to Gaiman, while we were dating, when he started me reading the Sandman series,
  but I had actually discovered his first 2 books on my own in high school &
  college. Neil Gaiman wrote a book called DON'T PANIC - the authorized story of
  Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy back in the late 80's, when he was still being a
  journalist (in the UK, it's at
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852864117/qid=967901179/sr=1-2/026-4534433-1111615
  - not available in the US, but the amazon page on it is at
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671664263/qid=967901210/sr=1-8/103-1149154-6478230)

  He also wrote a terrifically funny book with Terry Pratchett called Good Omens
  about how the son of satan turns out to be a really nice kid - there's some
  interesting subplot stuff about witch-finders, Ley Lines (see diagon alLEY) and
  the problem with making perfectly accurate predictions hundreds of year ahead of
  time (why predict Do Not Buy Beytamacks in the 1600's?) - the US version is at
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0441003257/qid=967901268/sr=1-1/103-1149154-6478230
  and the UK version is at
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0552137030/qid=967901401/sr=1-1/026-4534433-1111615)

  Adam, the Son of Satan in the book, is what gives me hope that Draco won't turn
  out to be as sociopathic as his father. But then again, I have my own set of
  theories about Draco's homelife (none of which constitute a healthy household)
  which I may save until Draco Week in the list discussions


  I do also recommend Neverwhere (a novel, NOT a graphic novel) for those who like
  novels involving magic and the London Underground, and although I didn't
  personally like Stardust that much, I know others who did, and if you like the
  rest of Gaiman's stuff, it's worth a whirl as well (but if you don't like reading
  comic book style books, you can get a "text' version of it which is at least a
  worthy read)


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 20:23:24 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:23:24 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
References: <8ooh62+nibb@eGroups.com> <00a501c01507$9fb0eaa0$9071023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <000b01c0151b$a5f570c0$9071023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 793

Hmm--I just noticed that some people have had trouble getting through to
Jenna.  Odd.  She often needs a while (as in two weeks!) but she almost
always answers.  Let me see if I can get a line--she said she was interested
in checking out our club in her last mail--thought it would be fun to talk
with grownups once in a while.

Baaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  2 21:10:20 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:10:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Any Casting News??
Message-ID: <v02140b9fb5d71d0ea692@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 794


I heard today that Richard Harris is not confirmed for Dumbledore, and they
are in fact having some contract issues with him.  He's pulling a Sir Alec
Guinness and asking for a percentage of merchandise grosses in lieu of
salary.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  2 21:11:34 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:11:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione
Message-ID: <v02140ba0b5d71d67bb7b@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 795

>
>I don't actually know the song itself, but I am pretty sure there is
>a fairly well-known David Bowie song called "Letters to Hermione."  I
>always think of that when reading about "our" Hermione.
>By the way, is it "Her-mee-ow-nee" or "Her-my-ow-nee"?  I knew from
>the beginning that there were four syllables, and I was mentally
>pronouncing it "Her-mee-ow-nee".  But my sister insists it's "Her-my-
>ow-nee",
>
Your sister is correct.  It's Her-MY-uh-knee.  The 'o' is more of a schwah.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  2 21:24:02 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:24:02 -0500
Subject: A question for our British friends...
Message-ID: <v02140ba4b5d7200b5a4d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 796


Okay, Brits only please.  This question does have some relevance to something.

Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?  (I'm not asking because I want
to know...I already know...I'm asking because I'm wondering if it's at all
likely that a British citizen would know who he is)

Thanks.
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  2 20:47:31 2000
From: Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com (Katie Bell)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:47:31 -0000
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <8orp13+r3qs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 797

Um, hi.  I'm 'Katie Bell' from FFN - I know some of you go there and 
some of you know who I am.  I joined this list because several of my 
friends are on it and I was looking for intelligent Potter 
discussion.  (Hard to find in many places.)

Anyway, should I read the archives?  I looked at a few things (mostly 
the list of fanfic cliches, which I found very entertaining), but is 
there any real reason to look at them?  I don't ahve as much time as 
I'd like, so if I don't ahve to I probably won't.

Oh, and about me - I'm seventeen, which is 'grownup' in my eyes, and 
attending college.  Ad of course I love Harry Potter.

Katie Bell





From warmsley at btinternet.com  Sat Sep  2 21:41:19 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:41:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question for our British friends...
Message-ID: <01c01526$87e44b00$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 798

>Okay, Brits only please.  This question does have some
relevance to something.
>
>Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?  (I'm not asking
because I want
>to know...I already know...I'm asking because I'm wondering if
it's at all
>likely that a British citizen would know who he is)

Bloke who claimed to have list of 50 people in Senate who were
communists?

Yes, but I don't think many would.

--
Jeremy




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 00:10:33 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:10:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question for our British friends...
References: <v02140ba4b5d7200b5a4d@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <00c301c0153b$6233f580$266e883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 799

This Brit has heard of Joseph McCarthy but she can't remember why or in what
context. Maybe if I hadn't been drinking G & T's I would remember <g>.
Please enlighten me. I'm curious now.

Heather
----- Original Message -----




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 00:18:51 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:18:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unlurking
References: <005b01c01453$01fbe3a0$11987ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00d501c0153c$8a20cb80$266e883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 800

Is unlurking a word. Possibly delurking would be more appropriate. I just
posted my first ever message to the list after lurking for a while, then
realised I had failed to introduce myself.

So here it is. I am a twenty three year old Londoner of questionable sanity,
a drama graduate fram Exeter University and soon to be trainee primary
teacher (I told you my sanity was questionable) at The Institute of
Education.

I read far more childrens books than I should my favourites being  the
Chalet School, Anne's, Abbeys and of course Harry Potter. Consequently I
have yet to begin my reading list for next year and it must be read by the
11th.

I predict a few allnighters coming up.

Heather





From chrisgoetz at home.com  Sun Sep  3 00:37:43 2000
From: chrisgoetz at home.com (chrisgoetz at home.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:37:43 -0000
Subject: Rupert Grint
Message-ID: <8os6gn+bfur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 801

Did anyone else notice what a Rowling-esque name the actor cast as 
Ron has?  Sounds like a Ministry of Magic bureaucrat!

Chris G.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 02:31:01 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:31:01 -0000
Subject: HP in Egypt (was Greek/Egyptian names (was Hermione pronunciation)
In-Reply-To: <8opruo+su29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8osd55+61au@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 802

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> There's a rumor on Jenna's site about one of the next HP books
> being set partially in ancient Egypt... 

I am very scared of this possibility. I am not all that fond of the 
real world (tm) so I am pleased that JKR changes it around, but I am 
very fond of Kemet, and fear that I will be extremely annoyed at JKR 
changing it.

> Gringotts has a branch there (someone here said it may be the main
> bank) and Bill works there so it is plausible.  I really, really 
> hope it is true.

Bill works for Gringotts in Egypt as a cursebreaker. I wonder what a 
cursebreaker DOES for a bank? I was thinking of something like 
removing curses from items that were being offered as collateral for 
loans, or that had been put on foreclosed houses by spiteful debtors, 
but in GoF Bill said something about the boss doesn't care how he 
dresses as long as he brings home plenty of treasure, and that gives 
me a terrible fear that he might be working as a grave robber. How 
dishonorable, and inconsiderate of the dead people.

So I used to think that, as Bill works for Gringotts in Egypt, there 
must be a branch there, but later I realized that he that if he WAS 
robbing graves or something, that would be work out in the field, far 
from any branch, so there wouldn't HAVE to be a branch in Egypt.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 02:36:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:36:44 -0000
Subject: HP's Genre Problem
In-Reply-To: <8opu88+c5r8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8osdfs+s87r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 803

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> "I loved the MS.  However, you're going to have to start your 
> series out with the characters as adults.  Contemporary African
> American fiction *for adults* is hot right now--not teens.  You
> don't want to mark yourself as a juvenile author."  
>   (snip)
> I know one thing.  Just like Terry McMillan's *Waiting to Exhale* 
> proved that African American women actually bought books, HP proved 
> something that publishers never believed before:  adults will read 
> a book with protagonists who are not adults.

I've heard John Cheusse on ATC favorably reviewing some nvoels for 
adults that are about characters who are children. However, they all 
were about abuse of and monstrous evil done by said children, 
sounding to me from his description like LORD OF THE FLIES in 
suburbia, piling further weight on my conviction that I don't want 
anything to do with Literature-capital-L.

> Needless to say, I am still not published.

I am very sorry to hear this.




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep  3 03:37:08 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:37:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question for our British friends...
Message-ID: <v02140ba5b5d7775dde65@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 804

>
>This Brit has heard of Joseph McCarthy but she can't remember why or in what
>context. Maybe if I hadn't been drinking G & T's I would remember <g>.
>Please enlighten me. I'm curious now.
>
>Heather

Senator Joseph McCarthy (from my own home state of Wisconsin, lucky me) was
almost the sole cause of the Red Scare in the 50's in America.  He was
either chair or a member of the Un-American Activities Committee, whose
purpose was almost solely to dig up supposed Communists in the country and
blackball them from here to Christmas.  It eventually spread to Socialists
and even anyone with leftist affiliations.  This lasted well into the 60's
and beyond.

He was a big ole paranoid maniac and largely responsible for the whole
Communism=Evil Incarnate attitude that so long ruled...hey, it's just an
economic philosphy, guys.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep  3 02:48:38 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:48:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP in Egypt (was Greek/Egyptian names (was Hermione pronunciation)
In-Reply-To: <8osd55+61au@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEAKCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 805

I rather got the idea that Bill's job was to break any curses that prevented
UNCLAIMED treasure from being retrieved... OR, to break curses on treasures
that would be used to pay debts to the bank.  For example, if Ludo Bagman
had borrowed money from Gringotts, then told them he was unable to repay,
AND if they learned that he did indeed have treasure stowed away somewhere,
protected by a curse, then the Curse-Breakers would be sent in to confiscate
the treasure to pay back the loan.  Kinda like a repo-man!



-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Winston [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:31 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP in Egypt (was Greek/Egyptian names (was
Hermione pronunciation)

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> There's a rumor on Jenna's site about one of the next HP books
> being set partially in ancient Egypt...

I am very scared of this possibility. I am not all that fond of the
real world (tm) so I am pleased that JKR changes it around, but I am
very fond of Kemet, and fear that I will be extremely annoyed at JKR
changing it.

> Gringotts has a branch there (someone here said it may be the main
> bank) and Bill works there so it is plausible.  I really, really
> hope it is true.

Bill works for Gringotts in Egypt as a cursebreaker. I wonder what a
cursebreaker DOES for a bank? I was thinking of something like
removing curses from items that were being offered as collateral for
loans, or that had been put on foreclosed houses by spiteful debtors,
but in GoF Bill said something about the boss doesn't care how he
dresses as long as he brings home plenty of treasure, and that gives
me a terrible fear that he might be working as a grave robber. How
dishonorable, and inconsiderate of the dead people.

So I used to think that, as Bill works for Gringotts in Egypt, there
must be a branch there, but later I realized that he that if he WAS
robbing graves or something, that would be work out in the field, far
from any branch, so there wouldn't HAVE to be a branch in Egypt.



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 02:48:41 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 02:48:41 -0000
Subject: Slambooks at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <20000902052241.20776.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ose69+68jt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 806

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Melanie Moore <ravenclawlady at y...> 
wrote:

> I can't see Hogwarts sponsoring slam books (any more than muggle
> junior highs, middle schools, or the equivalent).  I can,
> however, easily picture someone starting one "unofficially," and
> the fad catching on. 

I remember neither the term 'slam book' nor the phenomenon described, 
but I can easily imagine that any clique at my high school who knew 
how to read and write might have joined together to produce one copy 
of what they would probably have called a 'parody yearbook' with such 
categories as 'Ugliest' and 'Most Likely to Serve Time in Prison'. At 
Hogwarts, it sounds tremendously like something Draco would start 
with the intention of concentrating the insults on Harry. 

> I'm trying to picture what magical properties it might have.  A
> Truth Pen (forget the tact!) for example.

A Truth Quill might well *ruin* such a project! For example, the 
boy (an alleged friend of mine!) who learned the word 'epitome' in 
English class and promptly invented the sentence 'Rita Winston is the 
epitome of unfemininity' -- while I have the messy hair, loud voice, 
and extreme lack of interest in fashion that once led a certain 
transvestite to tell me that I, unlike him, was not a real girl, I 
lack *some* of the features of unfemininity, such as football. So the 
Truth Quill would not have allowed him to put that sentence in the 
book.   




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 03:00:03 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:00:03 -0000
Subject: Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <8oserj+dslf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 807

I was making making Focaccia today and it made me start thinking 
about Italy.  I love Italy, there is just something- well- magical 
about it.  Maybe that is why I always thought that the country had a 
large enough wizard pop. to support a school.  Why then is the 
nearest school Beauxbatons, (which totally off the topic of this post 
I've always pictured as looking like Chambord in the Loire Valley.)
  
Does that mean that the Italian students would be expected to learn 
French?  If that was the case then the school would also have pupils 
from Spain, and Portugal, and probably  parts of Switzerland.  That's 
well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more schools that 
just the three.  (I'm going to contradict myself but in book four it 
says these are just the main ones right?)

Of course I can't see the Irish going to Hogwarts either....

Scott (who is munching on the the last bits of bread as he types 
this..)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 03:12:46 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:12:46 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty (long)
In-Reply-To: <39B13637.F5681AF1@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8osfje+6bek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 808

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> Voldemort, too, when the  death eaters come, scolds them for how
> they has let him down, and punish some, cruelly. But although he 
> gives Wormtail back a hand, my impression is that everyone 
> understands that all the giving is going to flow toward Voldemort,
> not the other way around--unless he decides to reward his
> followers on a whim. Note, too, that the Deatheaters return this 
> "loyalty" of Voldemort's with coin just about as false. They come
> back to him out of fear, or because he can offer them scope for
> depraved pleasures--not because they think, "By gum, my friend
> Voldemort is in a spot of trouble, and he needs me, and I know he's
> always stuck up for me before." Others, observing the characters of
> these Death eaters, note that their loyalty is false. Karkaroff and
> Wormtail, for example, both guage their loyalty to Voldemort by
> calculating first and foremost what's in it for them.

I have a very strong feeling (which I cannot prove) that SOME of the 
Death Eaters actually ARE loyal to Voldemort -- ones who went to 
Azkaban, scorning to renounce their master -- not because they had 
faith that he would return and triumph in time to save them from 
madness and death and reward them for loyalty, but quite sincerely. 
Certainly none of them thought 'Voldy is my friend', but that is not 
what the samurai dying for his daimyo thinks, and probably not 
what the Christian martyr dying for his/her faith thinks. But this 
leaves me wondering WHY???? would they have that kind of loyalty to 
Voldemort? It isn't something that they were raised up to for 
generations, such as patriotism that leads people to die for their 
country even when their country is very much in the wrong. Presumably 
it is some sort of Nietzschean worship of power, such that they 
believe that it is right and proper that the greatest wizard should 
triumph and it is their proper role and glorious privilege to live 
and die to assist in this triumph.

> Other thoughts: it was something about loyalty, or more 
> specifically, about choosing sides, that led to the first falling 
> out between Draco and Harry.  Remember the scene on the train, 
> first year: Draco wanted Harry to join "his side" and appealed to
> him to avoid Ron and others of that ilk.

Second falling-out. The first was when they ran into each other in 
Madam Malkin's robe shop, and neither of them knew who the other was. 
Draco tried in his own despicable way to make friends with Harry the 
stranger: by boasting of his wealth, lineage, excellent Quidditch 
skills, and by putting down the Muggle-born. This did not inspire 
Harry to warm to Draco.

Then, in the train scene you quoted, after Draco has found out who 
that kid was (Harry), he gave Harry another chance to be his friend, 
if only he let Draco choose his other friends for him. As Harry 
already disliked Draco and didn't want to be friends with him, that 
was an easy offer for him to refuse.

However, I wonder about Draco's motives for giving Harry that second 
chance. Of course, it is because he is the famous Harry Potter. At 
first, I thought Draco was simply after the glory of being friends 
with a celebrity. After GoF, and Draco's explicit pro-V statements, I 
am left wondering if he was working on some plan to entrap Harry and 
turn him over to the Death Eaters, perhaps under excuse of bringing 
him home for a visit.




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 03:28:06 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 20:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slambooks at Hogwarts
Message-ID: <20000903032806.9493.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 809


--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> A Truth Quill might well *ruin* such a project! For example,
> the 
> boy (an alleged friend of mine!) who learned the word
> 'epitome' in 
> English class and promptly invented the sentence 'Rita Winston
> is the 
> epitome of unfemininity' -- while I have the messy hair, loud
> voice, 
> and extreme lack of interest in fashion that once led a
> certain 
> transvestite to tell me that I, unlike him, was not a real
> girl, I 
> lack *some* of the features of unfemininity, such as football.
> So the 
> Truth Quill would not have allowed him to put that sentence in
> the 
> book.   
> 


For someone like that, you have a point.  I was thinking more
along the lines of someone like me writing in it.  I'd try to be
as tactful as I could, in case my subject later came along and
read what I'd written.

But that Truth Quill would force the writing into my *real*
thoughts ("C'mon! Give us the dirt. I know you think so-and-so's
a b----!").  It would then twist my writing into just that, like
Riddle's diary made Harry's writing disappear, and used the ink
to form Tom's writing.

Maybe a Mind Reading Quill would be more accurate.

Melanie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 03:32:09 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:32:09 -0000
Subject: UK, Ireland and now James Joyce! (still OT)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000902011110.007050f8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8osgnp+2aiu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 810

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:

> In fact, the Isle of Man is ruled by its own rather bizarre 
> government, the Tynwald, and the House of Keys.

The things I learn from HP e-mail-lists! This sent me off to 
Metacrawler to search on 'Isle of Man' and learn that it is a 
separate country under the feudal rule of the British monarch as 
represented by a Lieutenant Governor.  






From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 03:33:43 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:33:43 -0000
Subject: A question for our British friends...
In-Reply-To: <v02140ba5b5d7775dde65@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8osgqn+thm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 811

Is anybody here familiar with Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible"?  
Basically it is a retelling of the Salem witch trials in the context 
of the time it was written (the McCarthy era); it's allegorical 
purpose was, I believe, to show how dangerous "witch hunts" like 
Senator McCarthy's were.  Not one of the best things I've ever read, 
in my opinion, but very interesting given its background.
Anyway, it's sort of interesting that we are referecing McCarthy 
while talking about witches, seeing as how Arthur Miller referenced 
witches to talk about McCarthy.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> >
> >This Brit has heard of Joseph McCarthy but she can't remember why 
or in what
> >context. Maybe if I hadn't been drinking G & T's I would remember 
<g>.
> >Please enlighten me. I'm curious now.
> >
> >Heather
> 
> Senator Joseph McCarthy (from my own home state of Wisconsin, lucky 
me) was
> almost the sole cause of the Red Scare in the 50's in America.  He 
was
> either chair or a member of the Un-American Activities Committee, 
whose
> purpose was almost solely to dig up supposed Communists in the 
country and
> blackball them from here to Christmas.  It eventually spread to 
Socialists
> and even anyone with leftist affiliations.  This lasted well into 
the 60's
> and beyond.
> 
> He was a big ole paranoid maniac and largely responsible for the 
whole
> Communism=Evil Incarnate attitude that so long ruled...hey, it's 
just an
> economic philosphy, guys.
> 
> Lori
> 
> 
> **********************************************************
> Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers
> 
>         Reality is for people who can't face drugs.
> 
> Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
> Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
> Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
> ***********************************************************




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 03:35:52 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:35:52 -0000
Subject: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <20000903032806.9493.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8osguo+1lg3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 812

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Melanie Moore <ravenclawlady at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Maybe a Mind Reading Quill would be more accurate.

Oooh! A wizarding version of Truth or Dare! Why isn't THIS a fanfic 
cliche? The small group of friends gathers privately to pass around 
the Truth Quill and write answers to such questions as "With whom 
are you in love?"




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Sep  3 03:57:36 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 03:57:36 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
Message-ID: <8osi7g+26qr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 813

I cannot remember if this has been brought up before since we are 
such a prolific group, but I was wondering about this earlier and 
thought I'd ask y'all's opinion.

Do the Dursley's have *any* idea what happened to Harry with Voldy in 
the graveyard at the end of term? They are always so ugly to him, 
even though lately it has been tempered with fear.  Would Dumledore 
have sent an owl to explain what transpired as well as a command to 
behave themselves around Harry?  By "behaving" I mean being at least 
superficially decent.  After all, Harry survived a situation which 
would have left any of them wetting their britches in terror.  And it 
is apparent that the whole experience will haunt him for a long 
while.  He does have a tendency to brood about things, a trait that 
is understandable given his history.   And his feeling responsible 
for Cedric's death gives him much to brood about. 

Been brooding about this for awhile myself...

Trina




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 04:15:13 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:15:13 -0000
Subject: Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <8oserj+dslf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8osj8h+62hs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 814

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

> Does that mean that the Italian students would be expected to learn 
> French? If that was the case then the school would also have pupils 
> from Spain, and Portugal, and probably  parts of Switzerland. 

On learning languages: I suppose that the wizard folk don't have 
automagic simultaneous interpreters, or Fudge would have used one 
when speaking to the Bulgarian Minister of Magic. However, I suppose 
that they do have potions or charms to make it very much easier and 
faster to learn a new language -- how many languages did Percy said 
that Mr. Crouch spoke, eighty? Maybe as easy as a potion you drink 
and suddenly you speak and understand the specified language -- in 
tales it is usually the language of birds or the language of 
beasts...

Someone, I think it was Ebony, previously suggested that the Iberian 
students go to school at Beauxbatons because the Spanish school was 
destroyed by a joint effort of the Spanish Inquisition and an evil 
wizard. (See, we perceive the JKR universe as being so rich that 
it has much more history and culture than JKR has time to tell us 
about.) If Beauxbatons is located in Andorra, as a few people believe 
after having read some novel about romantic, magical Andorra, it is 
probably geographically closer to the Spanish students than to the 
French ones.   

> That's well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more 
> schools than just the three. (snip) Of course I can't see the Irish
> going to Hogwarts either....

Well, JKR never told us that there isn't an Italian school and an 
Iberian school and a Greek school and a Russian school .... she just 
told us that Hogwarts is THE school for UK and Ireland, and I can't 
see that any more than you can. Even if Hogwarts was big enough and 
had enough students with Irish names, if that fine Irish National 
Team had gone to Hogwarts, someone would have mentioned them.





From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 05:08:38 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:08:38 -0500
Subject: Focaccia and Harry Potter
References: <967952158.25733@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B1DCD7.8B5180D8@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 815

> Maybe that is why I always thought that the country had a 
> large enough wizard pop. to support a school.  Why then is the 
> nearest school Beauxbatons, (which totally off the topic of this post 
> I've always pictured as looking like Chambord in the Loire Valley.)

Actually, I believe you'll find that Durmstrang and Beauxbatons are
described as the LARGEST continental schools, not the ONLY.



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 05:19:23 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 06:19:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question for our British friends...
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000903051923.0070391c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 816

Lori wrote:

>Okay, Brits only please.  This question does have some relevance to something.
>
>Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?  (I'm not asking because I want
>to know...I already know...I'm asking because I'm wondering if it's at all
>likely that a British citizen would know who he is)

For what it's worth, I know who he was and what he did, at least to the
extent of exposing known communists.  In fact, another one of my favourite
bands (I seem to have quite a few of these) was called McCarthy.  They had a
staunchly Marxist viewpoint and, in their heyday, myself and friend, when
chatting on the phone at work, would use the code word 'McCarthy' to
indicate that it was impossible to talk freely.  The only problem was that
dropping the word 'McCarthy' into the conversation wasn't that easy, so we
tended to draw even more attention to ourselves.

As for the average Brit, I'm not sure.  I'd say that most wouldn't have a
clue who he was, but I would expect those in this group would know. 

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep  3 06:17:58 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:17:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <v02140baab5d79d67ce37@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 817


>> That's well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more
>> schools than just the three. (snip) Of course I can't see the Irish
>> going to Hogwarts either....
>
>Well, JKR never told us that there isn't an Italian school and an
>Iberian school and a Greek school and a Russian school .... she just
>told us that Hogwarts is THE school for UK and Ireland, and I can't
>see that any more than you can. Even if Hogwarts was big enough and
>had enough students with Irish names, if that fine Irish National
>Team had gone to Hogwarts, someone would have mentioned them.
>
I had great fun inventing names for American wizarding schools for PoU...I
decided that there should be three in a country as large as the one in
which I now sit.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 05:25:01 2000
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jen Piersol)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 05:25:01 -0000
Subject: Rupert Grint
In-Reply-To: <8os6gn+bfur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8osnbd+n1bt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 818

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, chrisgoetz at h... wrote:
> Did anyone else notice what a Rowling-esque name the actor cast as 
> Ron has?  Sounds like a Ministry of Magic bureaucrat!
> 
> Chris G.

Actually, my first thought on his last name was that his mother and 
father "blended" their last names (my choices?  Green and Flint) - so 
that they wouldn't have a "Rupert Green-Flint" or some other 
hyphenated name.  Either that, or when they got married, instead of 
his mother taking his father's name, they blended the two to make it 
more equal.  Just a theory, as the name Grint doesn't really sound 
like a typical English surname. 

Jen, the linguistics ex-major (I've been decommissioned... hehehe)




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 05:38:03 2000
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jen Piersol)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 05:38:03 -0000
Subject: Rupert Grint
In-Reply-To: <8osnbd+n1bt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oso3r+htls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 819

Um... I just re-read my post and I've decided it wasn't exactly 
clear - I'm pretty tired this evening.  (btw, I'm out of town for 
the weekend, so won't make it to the chat tomorrow 
morning/afternoon)  Anyway, here's what I meant to say:

Grint = blend of "Green and Flint" (my choices), and his mother and 
father kept their "maiden" names...

= blend of same names, but mother and father *both* took this last 
name when they got married so that the mother wouldn't be the only
one taking a new last name and filling out all that ungodly 
paperwork... and so they wouldn't have to deal with hyphens.

Hope that clears it up more.... though I doubt it... and it's not
like it was a "life-or-death-must-clear-it-up-or-someone-will-die" 
type of problem.

As always,
CrazyJen




From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Sun Sep  3 06:28:33 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:28:33 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1576214353.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 820

   hi katie! :) Anyway, I think it's best for me to introduce myself since I'm also new here. My name is Reese, 17, a college freshman and I'm from the Philippines I recently joined this list and I've been reading most of the posts about the fanfic cliches and I found it pretty funny! :)I've read a few in <fanfiction.net> and personally, I think that most of them lack story in them and the endings are so abrupt and predictable. Well, maybe not all the fan fics because I've read a few GOOD ones.....:)   

  I don't know if anyone here had brought this up before in this list or I'm sure maybe some of you might have noticed this, because this has been bothering me for ages. In Harry Potter and the SS, Harry and Ron passed a ghost of a tall witch in a corridor while on their way to the room where the Mirror of Erised was located. Could've that been the Grey Lady? Didn't JKR say one time in an interview that Harry had passed by the Grey Lady at one time? But we just had to figure out when and where it was? 


...hmmm something to ponder on...

-fuelchic-      



>
>Um, hi.  I'm 'Katie Bell' from FFN - I know some of you go there and 
>some of you know who I am.  I joined this list because several of my 
>friends are on it and I was looking for intelligent Potter 
>discussion.  (Hard to find in many places.)
>
>Anyway, should I read the archives?  I looked at a few things (mostly 
>the list of fanfic cliches, which I found very entertaining), but is 
>there any real reason to look at them?  I don't ahve as much time as 
>I'd like, so if I don't ahve to I probably won't.
>
>Oh, and about me - I'm seventeen, which is 'grownup' in my eyes, and 
>attending college.  Ad of course I love Harry Potter.
>
>Katie Bell
>



From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 06:55:36 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 06:55:36 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <8osi7g+26qr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ossl8+lrvk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 821

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> I cannot remember if this has been brought up before since we are 
> such a prolific group, but I was wondering about this earlier and 
> thought I'd ask y'all's opinion.
> 
> Do the Dursley's have *any* idea what happened to Harry with Voldy 
in 
> the graveyard at the end of term? They are always so ugly to him, 
> even though lately it has been tempered with fear.  Would Dumledore 
> have sent an owl to explain what transpired as well as a command to 
> behave themselves around Harry?  By "behaving" I mean being at 
least 
> superficially decent.  After all, Harry survived a situation which 
> would have left any of them wetting their britches in terror.  And 
it 
> is apparent that the whole experience will haunt him for a long 
> while.  He does have a tendency to brood about things, a trait that 
> is understandable given his history.   And his feeling responsible 
> for Cedric's death gives him much to brood about. 
> 
> Been brooding about this for awhile myself...
> 
> Trina

THey don't know and they don't care. Which leads me to wonder how 
come HP is as sane as he is. esentially a very neglected child - yet 
his lanugage and social skills are good. the wonder of books I guess. 
I am intreetested in the idea also that the Witch/Wizarding community 
is hiding from the muggles and yet taking children from Muggle 
families and so on gives constant links to the wider community. why 
doesn't one of these families blow the game - go to the papers? what 
stops them from wanting to take advantage of the magic.

storm




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 07:15:06 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:15:06 -0000
Subject: More questions (was A bit of confusion (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts)
In-Reply-To: <8orhch+pju0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ostpq+o9ps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 822

--- HPforGrownups at egroups.com, 

I;ve wondered this myself, also about the clothes, JKR says that the 
Wesley children were muggle clothes during the chsoolholidays - where 
do they get them from and why? And Also - you know the generic wizard 
on the back of PS, well, he is wearing trousers - so why do the 
students run around in (what essentially are) long dresses. where are 
the pokects? why do they carry back packs (such a modern invention 
and such a contrast to their clothes and pens) and how does Krum sign 
the parchment that Ron hands him at the end of GoF - I've used a 
quill and you really are desk bound (or at least ink pot bound) - Is 
Ron carrying around an ink pot in his pockets too? All these 
questions, so may things. I guess in one way its a testiment to JKR's 
writing that the stories seem so real to me that these details are 
important

snuffles

"Kaitlin " <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:
> >>I'm trying to picture what magical properties it might have.  A
> >>Truth Pen (forget the tact!) for example.
> 
> It would probably be called an "Anti-Lying Quill," knowing how JKR 
> names things. :)
> Which leads me to the following question:  Why do the people at 
> Hogwarts use quills, ink and parchment if they are in the twentieth 
> century?  Just curious.
> 
> ~Kaitlin





From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 07:33:04 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:33:04 -0000
Subject: Pensieve - Just a Thought
In-Reply-To: <002d01c0135e$509b9140$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8osurg+dogj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 823

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> > Theoretically
> > then if Sirius could sieve these thoughts, Harry could then peer 
into
> > the past as he had done so in Dumbledore's office. The problem 
with
> > this is that the sheer trauma of Sirius' time in Azkaban may also 
get
> > siphoned into the Pensieve and Harry, on looking in, would be 
drawn
> > into an unpleasant world, albeit, as an observer.
> >
> 
> No denying that makes sense.  But I don't think it will happen.  
JKR often
> seems to bring in bits of magic that serve a purpose in the tactics 
of a
> single book (or even within a section of a single book) but don't 
serve the
> overall stretgy of the series.  

> About Sirius: It's also possible that the pensieve can collect 
memories only
> within a limited period of time following their formation.  That 
would keep
> anyone from using it to dig up long-lost memories (at least without 
the use
> of a very clever therapist ... )

I think the pensive - My boss and I were only saying on Thusday how 
we wanted one! - can have a limited number of memories, so Sirus 
could sort out only the memories he wanted to show harry - this could 
be a bit optimistic. And Also I suppose you can put the memoires back 
in your own head once you have finished  considering them ..

The Mirror of Erised or the flying Ford are
> two simple examples.  They serve their purposes, then trundleoff 
off over
> the horizon.  (Or into HP4GU, as the case may be ... )

that flying ford will be back - no doubt about it. it is just living 
rough in the forrest before returning tumumphantly!
> 
> Snape's truth serum is a more complex example of these moves: It 
serves the
> tactics of GoF but leaves us wondering why Dumbledore doesn't 
administer a
> spoonful to every prospective Hogwarts teacher.

because that would take an eliment of humanity out of the 
interactions, the point is not to know the truth about something but 
for you to trust the other person is telling the truth - can you 
think what it would do to power relations if you expected ppl to have 
a truth serium as a job prerequist? No, I think the danger of using 
it universaly is so great that it is one of those things best left 
to 'police' kind of powers. 
> 

> 





From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Sep  3 08:22:58 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:22:58 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
References: <8oserj+dslf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004601c01580$2b30f5c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 824

<I love Italy, there is just something- well- magical 
about it.  Maybe that is why I always thought that the country had a 
large enough wizard pop. to support a school.  Why then is the 
nearest school Beauxbatons, (which totally off the topic of this post 
I've always pictured as looking like Chambord in the Loire Valley.)
  
Does that mean that the Italian students would be expected to learn 
French?  If that was the case then the school would also have pupils 
from Spain, and Portugal, and probably  parts of Switzerland.  That's 
well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more schools that 
just the three.  (I'm going to contradict myself but in book four it 
says these are just the main ones right?)

Of course I can't see the Irish going to Hogwarts either....>

In Europe, second languages come into play a lot sooner than in the States. When I started school in Europe in 7th grade, I had to learn French, catch up on several years of German, and start Latin. The next year I continued all those languages and added Greek, then the year after that I changed schools, so I could no longer take the classics, but had Italian for a semester. So it's not such a big deal as all that. I'd imagine that Swiss students would definitely go to Beauxbatons, unless there's a German school and an Italian school, in which case Swiss students would go to the school taught in the language of their region. I have no idea where the Swiss Romansch (sp?) speakers would go - probably into the Italian school. As for Spain and Portugal, they probably have a school as well...it's a question of language. The three most spoken languages in Europe (this is mostly guesswork, here, could someone confirm this?) are probably English, Russian, and French, which corresponds to the Triwizard schools, and those are the largest ones.

<If Beauxbatons is located in Andorra, as a few people believe 
after having read some novel about romantic, magical Andorra, it is 
probably geographically closer to the Spanish students than to the 
French ones.>

Plus, Andorrans don't speak French, they speak Catalan, I think.

<I had great fun inventing names for American wizarding schools for PoU...I
decided that there should be three in a country as large as the one in
which I now sit.>

So there should be multiple ones in Russia, as well, meaning that Durmstrang is the largest and there are a couple of smaller ones elsewhere. Unless Durmstrang is Bulgarian, which I don't believe because Russia is a lot bigger than Bulgaria, so it should have a bigger school somewhere - and anyway it's not such a stretch for Krum to speak Russian.

You know, it comes out to a lot of schools worldwide, if we keep estimating this way...at least 30-something...but I'm sure that in some parts of the world, wizards learn their craft by apprenticeship, or something.

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 10:18:57 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:18:57 -0000
Subject: A question for our British friends...
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000903051923.0070391c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8ot8ih+hc7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 825

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Lori wrote:
> 
> >Okay, Brits only please.  This question does have some relevance 
to something.
> >
> >Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?  (I'm not asking 
because I want
> >to know...I already know...I'm asking because I'm wondering if 
it's at all
> >likely that a British citizen would know who he is)
> 
> For what it's worth, I know who he was and what he did, at least to 
the
> extent of exposing known communists.  

I've always had the impression that the McCarthy 'witch-hunts' for 
communist sympathisers achieved very little except to spread 
suspicion and fear in Hollywood, the universities and other groups. I 
think that quite a lot of Brits - including teenagers - would have 
heard of Joe McCarthy - in some schools they would touch on that era 
for social studies (history, current affairs etc. etc.)

I've just tested my theory on my son (17) and he has heard of 
McCarthyism - but not from school; a general interest in history 
means that he does watch the History Channel quite a lot.

Don't think my daughter (12) has ever heard of him though.

Pam




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep  3 11:25:57 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:25:57 +0100
Subject: Bill's Job and McCarthy
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEENACHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 826

"I rather got the idea that Bill's job was to break any curses that
prevented UNCLAIMED treasure from being retrieved... OR, to break curses on
treasures that would be used to pay debts to the bank."

`Mum, no one at the bank gives a damn how I dress as long as I bring home
plenty of treasure,' [1]
`It's brilliant here in Egypt. Bill's taken us round all the tombs and you
wouldn't believe the curses those old Egyptian wizards put on them.' [2]

I took these to mean that he was involved in obtaining treasure from the
pyramids. The curses that he is breaking are the ones put on the tombs of
the Egyptian pharaohs. [3]

"Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?"

I have heard of him but know very few details. What I do know is from a
friend of mine who has studied American politics in his PPE [4] degree.  It
is odd that the all the Brits on this list at least know the name and are
all saying that they believe that the average person would not. It would
depend on why you wish to use his name Lori. If it is in a fan fiction then
the people on this list are a fair representation of the people likely to
read it and so it is probably ok to mention McCarthy.

Simon

Footnotes
1: Bill to Molly, concerning his ponytail - GoF Ch5
2: Letter from Ron to Harry - PoA Ch1
3: I will let someone else fill in any more details about the Egyptians. I
can remember little from my history lessons (must be over 10 years ago)
about them.
4: Politics, Philosophy and Economics.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep  3 11:29:02 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:29:02 -0400
Subject: Drew Barrymore & Harry Potter
References: <8osd55+61au@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B235FE.D3A8BAA0@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 827


Expect to see an homage to Harry Potter when the long awaited movie version
of Charlie's Angels opens on November 3.

We did an ode to Harry Potter," movie director McG says. "Drew dressed up as
Harry  Potter to go undercover."

 The tribute comes during the movie's opening montage sequence, which shows
Barrymore sneaking through a trapdoor behind a bookcase wearing large,
dark-rimmed glasses.

"She looks like Harry Potter in his wizard robe," he says. "And she pulls a
book out, and the bookcase slides back."

 Apparently Potter is one of Barrymore's favorite reads; she also
entertained the director and others on the set with dramatic readings of the
books. "She's a huge fan," McG says.

What else would you expect from the fairy tale fan/star of Ever
After/producer of Olive The Other Reindeer?





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep  3 11:57:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:57:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
References: <8ossl8+lrvk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B23CC1.71C9F66F@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 828



snuffles wrote:onsor -------------------------~-~>

> THey don't know and they don't care. Which leads me to wonder how
> come HP is as sane as he is. esentially a very neglected child - yet
> his lanugage and social skills are good. the wonder of books I guess.

This response is going to use some personal experience to explain a pet
theory of mine. And just a reminder to all of you - JKR was raising a baby
at the same time as she was finishing Book 1.
I've got a 13 month old son, and have spent a good bit of time over the past
18 months reading "parenting" books, including a very interesting book
called Dream Babies which analyzes parenting books and advice from the
1700's until 1981 (see the year?!?). One thing I've learned is that if you
have an "attached" relationship with your baby in the first year, your baby
is more likely to be a "resiliant child", even if (God Forebid!) s/he
suffers subsequent trauma. If the child is subsequently neglected, as Harry
clearly was, bad psychological things could happen, but not as badly as if
said child had been traumatized from birth.

I assume that for his first 15 months, Harry had a terrificly stable
upbringing, great, loving parents (ok, maybe James spent time away from home
on anti-voldemort things...) and a lot of love at home.
Then, boom, things go wrong.
We next see him almost ten years later, sleeping in a cuboard, but able to
visit the rest of the house.
And he's not horrible. Why?
Is it the whole Cinderella thing, where she's just so inherently good that
the horribleness of her situation doesn't reduce her unfailing goodness?
Possibly - I mean, this part of the story is the closest to traditional
fairy tales (but then again, in the traditional Perrault and Grimm
cinderella stories, she had her father until he was somewhere between 5 and
9) - but there might be another explanation. Or two.
My pet theory? I believe that when the Dursleys found him on their doorstep,
and something in the letter made it very clear to them that they couldn't
drop him off at the nearest orphanage, (a) Grunnings was a very modern
company which had a free childcare service for all its employees, and Vernon
just dropped Harry off every morning at 8 and picked him up at 6:30, and
thereby allowed Petunia to spend all her time with Dudders, (b) even if he
doesn't remember it, Harry's magical abilities allowed him to "improve"
things in the cuboard until his memories of his parents & his prior "life"
started to fade away.
Babies remember things - you spend enough time with a 13 (or, I assume, a
15) month old, and you see that even if they haven't done something or
played with a toy or seen a book for 2, 3, even 4 months, they'll remember
it when they see it. They're generally walking and talking, and unless
Hagrid gave him a little sleeping draught, Harry was a pretty good sleeper
at 15 months.  And if they have the personality for it, babies play on their
own better than they play with others. And if you're a wizard baby, and
you're spending every night in a crib in a dark room, you'll amuse yourself
by making the nightlight flash on & off, by sending your blanket flying
around the room, by climbing out ofthe crib (yes, at that age, they do!) and
going into the box of old toys of Dudley's and playing with them.
And psychologists have found that while a 5 year old can't remember things
from when he was 2, a 3 year old can remember things from when he was 1.
Even if 10 year old harry has no memories of his parents, 3, and maybe even
4 year old Harry did - and that probably helped a lot with keeping him on a
more even keel than he would've been if his parents had been killed when he
was, say, 3 months old.
The other conclusion I'm reaching in all of this is, even though Harry was
clearly neglected, and even though he was clearly hit on occasion (well,
more frequently than that), some of the things that occur in serious child
abuse situations don't seem to be done by the Durselys - it says in the book
that he was never "actually starved", when Petunia flings the frying pan at
him, it doesn't get more extreme than that, Harry, in the scene with Aunt
Marge, seems actually a little surprised by the idea of a cane, etc.
Obviously child neglect is a very very serious problem for the growth and
development of a baby and child, but given a certain set of circumstances,
it's not going to automatically turn that child into a complete ruin of a
person.

Enough baby-book-based child psychology. Back to the fiction!




From warmsley at btinternet.com  Sun Sep  3 12:26:24 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:26:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bill's Job and McCarthy
Message-ID: <01c015a2$2c7934c0$36ad01d5@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 829

>"Do any of you know who Joseph McCarthy is?"
>
>I have heard of him but know very few details. What I do know
is from a
>friend of mine who has studied American politics in his PPE [4]
degree.  It
>is odd that the all the Brits on this list at least know the
name and are
>all saying that they believe that the average person would not.
It would
>depend on why you wish to use his name Lori. If it is in a fan
fiction then
>the people on this list are a fair representation of the people
likely to
>read it and so it is probably ok to mention McCarthy.
>


I rather suspect she plans to have someone British talk about
him in a piece - if thats the case, well, for instance, Hermione
would know, Harry almost certainly wouldnt (raised in a
cupboard, after all), and Ron definitley wouldn't.

Jeremy




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 12:58:01 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:58:01 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi
Message-ID: <c4.8b63039.26e3a4da@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 830

Welcome, Katie and Reese! I might as well introduce myself, too, because I joined a few days ago. My name is Ellie Rosenthal, and I'm a Freshman in high school. Yes, that makes me 15. I joined HP4GU because I wanted to have *educated* discussion.

I have a website dedicated to the word etymology in the books (spells, names, etc.) which I've already mentioned here. In case you missed it, the address is http://www.cornishpixie.cjb.net

I'm a fledgeling Fan Fiction writer, only finishing one story and kind of drowning in a massive MWPP undertaking. It's not even close to being finished, but when it is, I think it'll be great. If you want to read my stupid Chamber of Secrets Percy fic (that was completely messed up by descriptions of Bill and Charlie in GoF!), my ff.n alias is Cornish Pixie.

That's about it.

Ellie
"My secret? Well let's just say that every serious evil dark Lord starts their day with Cheerios."

In a message dated Sun, 3 Sep 2000  2:25:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "ReEse" <fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph> writes:


   hi katie! :) Anyway, I think it's best for me to introduce myself since I'm also new here. My name is Reese, 17, a college freshman and I'm from the Philippines I recently joined this list and I've been reading most of the posts about the fanfic cliches and I found it pretty funny! :)I've read a few in <fanfiction.net> and personally, I think that most of them lack story in them and the endings are so abrupt and predictable. Well, maybe not all the fan fics because I've read a few GOOD ones.....:)   

  I don't know if anyone here had brought this up before in this list or I'm sure maybe some of you might have noticed this, because this has been bothering me for ages. In Harry Potter and the SS, Harry and Ron passed a ghost of a tall witch in a corridor while on their way to the room where the Mirror of Erised was located. Could've that been the Grey Lady? Didn't JKR say one time in an interview that Harry had passed by the Grey Lady at one time? But we just had to figure out when and where it was? 


..hmmm something to ponder on...

-fuelchic-      



>
>Um, hi.  I'm 'Katie Bell' from FFN - I know some of you go there and 
>some of you know who I am.  I joined this list because several of my 
>friends are on it and I was looking for intelligent Potter 
>discussion.  (Hard to find in many places.)
>
>Anyway, should I read the archives?  I looked at a few things (mostly 
>the list of fanfic cliches, which I found very entertaining), but is 
>there any real reason to look at them?  I don't ahve as much time as 
>I'd like, so if I don't ahve to I probably won't.
>
>Oh, and about me - I'm seventeen, which is 'grownup' in my eyes, and 
>attending college.  Ad of course I love Harry Potter.
>
>Katie Bell
>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 13:06:24 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 09:06:24 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <11.8b5256a.26e3a6d1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 831

People keep overlooking this, and I've begun to find it a bit irritating. Durmstrang is NOT in Russia or Bulgaria. It's somewhere in Europe. Remember when Hermione was talking about "An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe", and Durmstrang was mentioned as having a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts? Geez, if I see one more MWPP fic that mentions Durmstrang in the USSR...

Ellie
"Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunatedly, fulfill neither requirement." --Uncle Voldie 

In a message dated Sun, 3 Sep 2000  4:24:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Firebolt" <particle at urbanet.ch> writes:


<I love Italy, there is just something- well- magical 
about it.  Maybe that is why I always thought that the country had a 
large enough wizard pop. to support a school.  Why then is the 
nearest school Beauxbatons, (which totally off the topic of this post 
I've always pictured as looking like Chambord in the Loire Valley.)
  
Does that mean that the Italian students would be expected to learn 
French?  If that was the case then the school would also have pupils 
from Spain, and Portugal, and probably  parts of Switzerland.  That's 
well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more schools that 
just the three.  (I'm going to contradict myself but in book four it 
says these are just the main ones right?)

Of course I can't see the Irish going to Hogwarts either....>

In Europe, second languages come into play a lot sooner than in the States. When I started school in Europe in 7th grade, I had to learn French, catch up on several years of German, and start Latin. The next year I continued all those languages and added Greek, then the year after that I changed schools, so I could no longer take the classics, but had Italian for a semester. So it's not such a big deal as all that. I'd imagine that Swiss students would definitely go to Beauxbatons, unless there's a German school and an Italian school, in which case Swiss students would go to the school taught in the language of their region. I have no idea where the Swiss Romansch (sp?) speakers would go - probably into the Italian school. As for Spain and Portugal, they probably have a school as well...it's a question of language. The three most spoken languages in Europe (this is mostly guesswork, here, could someone confirm this?) are probably English, Russian, and French, which corresponds!
 to the Triwizard schools, and those are the largest ones.

<If Beauxbatons is located in Andorra, as a few people believe 
after having read some novel about romantic, magical Andorra, it is 
probably geographically closer to the Spanish students than to the 
French ones.>

Plus, Andorrans don't speak French, they speak Catalan, I think.

<I had great fun inventing names for American wizarding schools for PoU...I
decided that there should be three in a country as large as the one in
which I now sit.>

So there should be multiple ones in Russia, as well, meaning that Durmstrang is the largest and there are a couple of smaller ones elsewhere. Unless Durmstrang is Bulgarian, which I don't believe because Russia is a lot bigger than Bulgaria, so it should have a bigger school somewhere - and anyway it's not such a stretch for Krum to speak Russian.

You know, it comes out to a lot of schools worldwide, if we keep estimating this way...at least 30-something...but I'm sure that in some parts of the world, wizards learn their craft by apprenticeship, or something.

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Sep  3 13:14:03 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:14:03 +0200
Subject: The Location of Dumstrang (Was: Re: Focaccia and Harry Potter)
References: <11.8b5256a.26e3a6d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001601c015a8$d5b0d9c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 832

Russia straddles two continents, Europe and Asia. The boundary is approximately over a mountain range...the Urals or Ourals, er - it starts with a vowel, in any case.

~Firebolt
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ellimist15 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  People keep overlooking this, and I've begun to find it a bit irritating. Durmstrang is NOT in Russia or Bulgaria. It's somewhere in Europe. Remember when Hermione was talking about "An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe", and Durmstrang was mentioned as having a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts? Geez, if I see one more MWPP fic that mentions Durmstrang in the USSR...

  Ellie
  "Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunatedly, fulfill neither requirement." --Uncle Voldie 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 13:27:01 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:27:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
References: <11.8b5256a.26e3a6d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012801c015aa$a565a6e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 833

With the descript Krum gives during the Yule Ball, could it be somewhere in Sweden, or the nearby companies?  (Never can spell that main name, so didn't want to chance it--scand something.)    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ellimist15 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  People keep overlooking this, and I've begun to find it a bit irritating. Durmstrang is NOT in Russia or Bulgaria. It's somewhere in Europe. Remember when Hermione was talking about "An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe", and Durmstrang was mentioned as having a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts? Geez, if I see one more MWPP fic that mentions Durmstrang in the USSR...

  Ellie
  "Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunatedly, fulfill neither requirement." --Uncle Voldie 

  In a message dated Sun, 3 Sep 2000  4:24:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Firebolt" <particle at urbanet.ch> writes:


  <I love Italy, there is just something- well- magical 
  about it.  Maybe that is why I always thought that the country had a 
  large enough wizard pop. to support a school.  Why then is the 
  nearest school Beauxbatons, (which totally off the topic of this post 
  I've always pictured as looking like Chambord in the Loire Valley.)
    
  Does that mean that the Italian students would be expected to learn 
  French?  If that was the case then the school would also have pupils 
  from Spain, and Portugal, and probably  parts of Switzerland.  That's 
  well and good but I don't buy it. There HAS to be more schools that 
  just the three.  (I'm going to contradict myself but in book four it 
  says these are just the main ones right?)

  Of course I can't see the Irish going to Hogwarts either....>

  In Europe, second languages come into play a lot sooner than in the States. When I started school in Europe in 7th grade, I had to learn French, catch up on several years of German, and start Latin. The next year I continued all those languages and added Greek, then the year after that I changed schools, so I could no longer take the classics, but had Italian for a semester. So it's not such a big deal as all that. I'd imagine that Swiss students would definitely go to Beauxbatons, unless there's a German school and an Italian school, in which case Swiss students would go to the school taught in the language of their region. I have no idea where the Swiss Romansch (sp?) speakers would go - probably into the Italian school. As for Spain and Portugal, they probably have a school as well...it's a question of language. The three most spoken languages in Europe (this is mostly guesswork, here, could someone confirm this?) are probably English, Russian, and French, which corresponds!
  to the Triwizard schools, and those are the largest ones.

  <If Beauxbatons is located in Andorra, as a few people believe 
  after having read some novel about romantic, magical Andorra, it is 
  probably geographically closer to the Spanish students than to the 
  French ones.>

  Plus, Andorrans don't speak French, they speak Catalan, I think.

  <I had great fun inventing names for American wizarding schools for PoU...I
  decided that there should be three in a country as large as the one in
  which I now sit.>

  So there should be multiple ones in Russia, as well, meaning that Durmstrang is the largest and there are a couple of smaller ones elsewhere. Unless Durmstrang is Bulgarian, which I don't believe because Russia is a lot bigger than Bulgaria, so it should have a bigger school somewhere - and anyway it's not such a stretch for Krum to speak Russian.

  You know, it comes out to a lot of schools worldwide, if we keep estimating this way...at least 30-something...but I'm sure that in some parts of the world, wizards learn their craft by apprenticeship, or something.

  ~Firebolt



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



  >>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 13:06:50 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:06:50 -0500
Subject: Site with cast photos
Message-ID: <39B24CEA.2C2F28F5@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 834

Someone asked, awhile ago, where to find cast photos.  Here's a site,
with pictures of rumored and confirmed cast members, as well as casting
suggestions:

http://www.dprophet.com/campaign.html

I really like their suggestions of Ralph Fiennes for Lupin and Rufus
Sewell (ooo, now he IS drop dead sexy.  See the picture--he looks so
menacing in this one, and yet I remember how charming he was in
Middlemarch.  Anyone see him in that one?)

Here are the pages of confirmed cast members:

http://www.dprophet.com/gallery.html

and

http://www.dprophet.com/gallery2.html

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 13:09:19 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:09:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts
References: <8osguo+1lg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B24D7F.B81E330D@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 835



Rita Winston wrote:

>
> > Maybe a Mind Reading Quill would be more accurate.
>
> Oooh! A wizarding version of Truth or Dare! Why isn't THIS a fanfic
> cliche? The small group of friends gathers privately to pass around
> the Truth Quill and write answers to such questions as "With whom
> are you in love?"
>

That's a pretty good idea, Rita (why don't you write it?)

Peg





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 13:15:37 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:15:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
References: <8osi7g+26qr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B24EF9.EE875663@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 836



Trina wrote:

I cannot remember if this has been brought up before since we are

> such a prolific group, but I was wondering about this earlier and
> thought I'd ask y'all's opinion.
>
> Do the Dursley's have *any* idea what happened to Harry with Voldy in
> the graveyard at the end of term? They are always so ugly to him,
> even though lately it has been tempered with fear.  Would Dumledore
> have sent an owl to explain what transpired as well as a command to
> behave themselves around Harry?  By "behaving" I mean being at least
> superficially decent.  After all, Harry survived a situation which
> would have left any of them wetting their britches in terror.  And it
> is apparent that the whole experience will haunt him for a long
> while.  He does have a tendency to brood about things, a trait that
> is understandable given his history.   And his feeling responsible
> for Cedric's death gives him much to brood about.
>
> Been brooding about this for awhile myself...
>
> Trina
>

I've been thinking about this, too, Trina, and I can't help that this summer
is going to be different for Harry.  Specifically, I think that what
happened to Harry has aged him, and that after facing Voldemort, I think he
will act less like a child who obeys than an adult who says coldly, "No, I
don't think so," when Uncle Vernon tells him how high to jump.  After what
he's been through, I just see him putting up with much from the Dursleys.

What also has really struck me is how different Draco's summer holiday might
be.  I think Draco might really be at a similar turning point.  Cornelius
Fudge might not believe it, but Lucius Malfoy has really gone back to
Voldemort, now.  Draco might have sneered at H, R and Hr about Cedric's
death, but when he goes back home, he's going to be facing parents (or at
least a father) who are working actively to promote the dark powers.  Will
what he sees this summer shake him up a little?  Will he start having second
thoughts about his loyalties?  Will Daddy maybe have a little less time to
pay attention to Dudley because he's started murdering people?  How will
that make Draco feel?

And what will Draco be like when HE comes back to Hogworts?  Even more
swaggering and sneering?  Or . . . maybe, a bit thoughtful and quieter, and
not so quick to sneer?

Comments?






From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep  3 13:55:17 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:55:17 -0500
Subject: Harry's Resilience & Parenting Theories
Message-ID: <39B25844.F23017D4@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 837

Hi --

Thanks to Heidi for the post about parenting attachment theories.  I'd
always wondered if there was *any* reasonable explanation for how Harry
could have turned out to be a good, grounded person, despite the
emotional abuse of years of living with the Dursleys.  I suspect his
insecurity & independence are characteristics that he developed as a
result of his Dursley years, and he probably will always have some
measure of those traits (Lori uses both of them to great effect in
PoU).  But, it's good to know that his parents' love may have imbued him
with some resilience to survive those years before Hogwarts.  I was
laughing at Heidi's theories about the ways that toddler Harry might
have amused himself alone in his dark crib at night.

Trina -- I suspect that Dumbledore minimizes his contact with the
Dursleys re: Harry.  I would bet that Harry will brood, and I doubt that
even if the Dursleys were aware of the tragedy of his previous school
year, they would do anything to try & alleviate his brooding thoughts.
I can't imagine them showing him any sympathy or kindness.  He might
actually be better off if things continued as always at the Dursleys --
it might force him to think of ways to torment Dudley rather than
focusing exclusively on his problems & thoughts (as would be the case if
Dumbledore instructed the Dursleys to "leave him in peace" so to speak).

I wonder if Book 5 will open with someone other than Harry as in Book 4
- that was a nice change.

Penny




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 14:12:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Resilience & Parenting Theories
References: <39B25844.F23017D4@hic.net>
Message-ID: <018001c015b1$005159e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 838

think of ways to torment Dudley 


I can't really see Harry tormenting Dudley, especially after what he has been through.  I think that human life is a bit more precious to him now, and even if he hates Dudley, tormenting him would be evil; and we don't want an evil Harry, now, do we?

Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 14:20:28 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:20:28 -0000
Subject: more fanfic cliches
In-Reply-To: <8opudn+maf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8otmnc+jfkl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 839

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > > -Harry has a twin sister, usually named Rose.
> > 
> > Why Rose?
> 
> You know... Rose... Lily... continuing with the whole flower names 
> thing.
> 
> Another cliche I just thought of is when Harry's kid has some
absurd 
> name that neither he nor JKR would ever subject it to.
> 
> Ebony AKA AngieJ

Sounds more like 'Keeping Up Appearances"  Where's Violet and 
Hyacinth??  Jim the Smartass




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 14:28:45 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:28:45 -0000
Subject: OT: Anime (Was: Re: Picture Books)
In-Reply-To: <20000902.004854.-267441.1.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <8otn6t+95ug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 840

You probably know this already but Princess Mononoke (Sp?)came out on 
video last week.   Jim



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dr M M <drmm at J...> wrote:
> >From: Neil Ward <neilward at d...>
> >
> >Ooops! Terribly sorry, Dr MM.  Actually, I wasn't talking about
> animation or
> >anime, I was thinking about illustrated books in the same style, 
but I
> >expect I still sinned by calling the artists 'cartoonists'.  You 
know, I
> >should have learned my lesson by now, since one of my brothers 
lectures
> on
> >animation and gets rattled when I tell people that he "watches 
cartoons
> for
> >a living" (in my cheeky, big-brotherly way).  
> 
> Hehehe, no big deal :)  I just had to say something. . . and btw, I 
envy
> your brother. . . What a fun job that would be :)
> 
> >So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the 
comic
> book
> >equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be 
called
> >illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime
> illustrators? 
> 
> The "comic book" equivalents are called "manga".  However, unlike 
U.S.
> comic books they aren't short fifteen page things and are rarely (if
> ever) in color.  They're basically graphic novels.  As for what the
> creators are called. . . I'm not sure.  I usually call them manga 
artists
> or illustrators or something like that.  They might have a term in
> Japanese that I don't know though.
> 
> >Continuing this very large OT aside about anime, the Sci-Fi
Channel 
here
> >just had a whole week of anime features.  I only saw bits, but I 
loved
> the
> >style.  I've also watched the Pokemon cartoons, sorry, ahem -
anime 
-
> and
> >they seemed like kids' stuff in comparison.  
> 
> Pokemon, IMO (and probably in most anime fans opinions), is an 
inferior
> subset of anime, barely worthy to don the name.  But Pokemon *was*
> intended for a children's audience in Japan, so in a way, you're 
right. 
> One of the interesting things about anime is there are so many 
different
> genre's of anime.  There's the traditional shonen (guys) / shoujo 
(girls)
> anime distinction, but there's also anime aimed at different age 
groups. 
> Card Captor Sakura (now airing as Cardcaptors -- edited of course
-- 
on
> Kids WB) is shoujo but it's also more for children than adults 
(although,
> that doesn't stop adults like me from adoring it).  An anime series 
like
> Marmalade Boy is shoujo, but as it's a high school romance (rather 
soap
> opera-ish) it's more for teenagers than children.  Pokemon is 
probably
> considered shonen, but it's for younger kids, whereas a shonen
title 
like
> Ninja Scroll (one of the few anime's I absolutely despised) is for 
adults
> (or maybe older teenage boys).  And then there's the "creators on 
crack"
> type of metaphysical questioning anime's like Evangelion, Serial
> Experiments Lain and Ghost in the Shell. . . . 
> 
> And of course, I must mention the *master* of Japanese animation: 
Hayao
> Miyazaki.  He's frequently called the Disney of Japan (and his
plots 
are
> *far* superior to Disney's IMO) and until recently his work held the
> Japanese box office record (inexplicably, Titanic beat it -- 
although,
> Titanic surpassed many far superior works in the US too. . .).  
> 
> Blech.  I'm getting terribly long-winded right now so I'll shut up 
:)  I
> tend to go long when talking about my favorite hobby. . . .
> 
> *~*~*~*~*~*~*
> DrMM can be reached at drmm at j... or #9689360 on ICQ
> The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
> Most Recent Anime: Irresponsible Captain Tyler
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 14:35:40 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:35:40 -0000
Subject: Manga and comics
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000902085941.0070f5b8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8otnjs+l4am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 841

For those interested and in the area or just passing through, there
is 
a 'Forbidden Planet" in NYC as well.  It is located at 12th (or 
13th)Street and 4th Avenue.   Jim


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Thanks to all those who responded to my questions about anime. 
Just 
to
> confirm my own stupidity on the subject, I had heard of manga
[which 
Brits
> would pronounce man-ga], and even knew what it was, but wasn't able 
to close
> that loop in my brain last night.  One of my favourite bands, Urusei
> Yatsura, is named after a manga/anime character - a sort of Veela
in 
a
> leopard-skin bikini (I just *know* someone is going to correct me
on 
that) -
> and it's been quite trendy to wear tight t-shirts with big-eyed 
manga
> characters on the front. Okay, this was obviously a very distant 
awareness I
> had...
> 
> For anyone who is interested in manga and comics when in London,
I'd 
suggest
> going to Forbidden Planet in New Oxford Street.  It's a science 
fiction
> bookshop, but it has a floor devoted to comics and also deals in 
sci-fi
> paraphernalia, such as 'paint-your-own Yoda' model kits.  Only go 
there if
> you think US$25 is reasonable for a t-shirt. Hmmm, I must see if 
they've
> stretched their genre as far as Harry Potter.
> 
> A while back, in our old Y! homestead, we were talking about the 
fact that
> JKR vetted all the Americanisms in the US books and supported these 
changes
> because she wanted everyone (I think she said "every child," cough,
> splutter) to have the same experience.  She/the publishers felt
that 
it
> might be spoilt if the reader had to stumble over 'dustbins' and
> 'pavements'.  If this anime/manga phenomenon is *so* huge in Japan, 
it would
> seem a logical vehicle for Harry Potter over there, especially as 
the
> violent scenes, rather than seeming out of place, will seem true to 
the genre. 
> 
> I'm not a comic fan, but I'm now going to check out some manga
stuff 
(and
> Sandman).  See what you've done to me?
> 
> Neil, who just about resisted a joke about the Isle of Manga.
>             Flying-Ford-Anglia
> 
>  *****************************************
> 
>    "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
>    the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
>    its rear lights blazing angrily"
> 
>  [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]
> 
>  *****************************************




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Sep  3 14:45:18 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:45:18 -0000
Subject: Harry's Resilience & Parenting Theories
In-Reply-To: <018001c015b1$005159e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8oto5u+bivu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 842

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> think of ways to torment Dudley 
> 
> 
> I can't really see Harry tormenting Dudley, especially after what 
he has been through.  

Well, maybe not out and out tormenting him.  I can see him offering 
Dudders a Chocolate Frog or two and casually mentioning it's from one 
of the twins...

"You remember, Dudley, one of fellows who came to take me to the 
Quidditch World Cup last summer?"

Dudley pales and waddles quickly from the room...

Trina




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 14:49:15 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:49:15 -0000
Subject: Classics Illustrated
In-Reply-To: <8or4f7+7728@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8otodb+e7io@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 843

 Pam, 
I had mentioned Classic 'Comics" and the same authors earlier but had 
forgotten that they were actually titled Classics Illustrated.  We 
always called them C Comics which I think was an earlier name that 
they used.  Great minds etc....    Jim




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Pam Scruton" <Pam at b...> wrote:
> I'm sorry if I've missed this point during this thread, but all of
a 
> sudden there were lots of messages to go through.
> 
> Does the phrase Classics Illustrated mean anything to anyone?  Lots 
> of years ago I got my introduction to an awful lot of literature 
> through this medium - all the Charles Dickens, Jack London, and, of 
> course Herman Melville whose Moby Dick I last saw in Classic 
> Illustrated form in the film Major League!  
> 
> Ladybird Books (mostly catering for pre-school and early school 
> readers) also have done versions of adult fiction - we have the 
> Ladybird version of Dracula, condenses Bram Stoker's book from the 
> size of  Goblet of Fire to about 16 pages half of which are taken
up 
> by pictures.
> 
> However, when I think of the visual images included in television 
> news broadcasts - even those around the children's TV slot in the 
> afternoon - JKR is going to have to get very dark indeed to match 
> that sort of stuff!
> 
> Pam




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep  3 14:44:38 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 09:44:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Resilience & Parenting Theories
References: <39B25844.F23017D4@hic.net> <018001c015b1$005159e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39B263D6.59B76AF0@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 844

Hi --

Denise wrote:

> think of ways to torment Dudley
>
> I can't really see Harry tormenting Dudley, especially after what he
> has been through.  I think that human life is a bit more precious to
> him now, and even if he hates Dudley, tormenting him would be evil;
> and we don't want an evil Harry, now, do we?

Okay, maybe "torment" isn't the right word.  But, finding ways to
distract himself from his own thoughts may be necessary to his
recovery.  I was thinking more of jokes (ala Fred & George style) or
just amusing himself with witty retorts & sarcasm that go above Dudley's
head.  He gives the money to Fred & George for their joke shop with the
words "I could use a good laugh now & then.  We could *all* use a good
laugh now & then."  That's more what I was driving at --  I certainly
was in no way insinuating that Harry should or could turn evil.
Goodness.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 14:56:45 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:56:45 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
Message-ID: <8otord+9ktc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 845

Peg loved your long piece on loyalty.  Oh, that the corporate world 
had some understanding of the concept as you expound.  Your piece 
should be required reading for executives.

Jim






From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep  3 16:16:03 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:16:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bill's Job and McCarthy
Message-ID: <v02140bacb5d82984b9b3@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 846


>I rather suspect she plans to have someone British talk about
>him in a piece - if thats the case, well, for instance, Hermione
>would know, Harry almost certainly wouldnt (raised in a
>cupboard, after all), and Ron definitley wouldn't.
>
>Jeremy
>
Well, Ron's dead in this scenario so it wouldn't matter, but what I in fact
am doing is putting in a bit character named Joe McCarthy and Harry makes a
comment about it.  I just wanted to know if it were at all plausible that a
26 year old British citizen would have heard of Joseph McCarthy.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 15:19:10 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 15:19:10 -0000
Subject: McCarthy
Message-ID: <8otq5e+t36n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 847

Small pedantic point.  Senator McCarthy was obviously a member of the 
Senate or the upper legislative chamber.  The un-American Activities 
Committee was better known as the HOUSE un-American Activities 
Committee (known commonly as HUAC)and was part of the lower 
legislative chamber.  But ole Joe did start the ball rolling and kept 
it rolling until he was discredited.  He had his own set of hearings .

It was an expression of the sudden blooming of the Cold War on the 
heels of WWII and the recognition of Stalinism for what it was.  Many 
lives were ruined because of personal beliefs and the American First 
Amendment to the Constitution was buried for a while.  A dark day in 
American history but I think,(hope that the First Amendment has since 
been given greater reverence as a result.

And yes, Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible' was a parable of the McCarthy 
hearings.

Jim




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 15:34:14 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:34:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000903153414.00748bd8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 848

At 09:06 09/03/2000 EDT, you wrote:

>People keep overlooking this, and I've begun to find it a bit irritating.
Durmstrang is NOT in Russia or Bulgaria. It's somewhere in Europe. Remember
when Hermione was talking about "An Appraisal of Magical Education in
Europe", and Durmstrang was mentioned as having a lot of emphasis on the
Dark Arts? Geez, if I see one more MWPP fic that mentions Durmstrang in the
USSR...
>
>Ellie

In GoF, Viktor Krum says that Durmstrang gets very little daylight in the
winter, which, to my mind, places it somewhere near the Arctic Circle.
Scandinavian countries such as Norway and Iceland are known for their very
dark winters (at least in the north) and they are also cold enough to
account for the fur-clad clothing of the Durmstrang party. 

It's incorrect to say Durmstrang is "NOT in Russia".  Durmstrang *could* be
in Russia, part of which, as Firebolt said, is in Europe.  Murmansk, for
example, in northern Russia, is just west of the northern tips of Norway and
Finland (in the vicinity of Lappland).  Also, Viktor describes flying over
lakes and mountains, and south of Murmansk, just near the White Sea, is a
region very heavy in lakes.  I still favour a location in Norway, but Russia
is a strong possibility.  

The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, so the USSR no longer exists.  Any
fanfic writers placing Durmstrang in the USSR are, therefore, a little
behind the times.

It is very unlikely that Durmstrang is in Bulgaria, as it's too far south in
Europe to suffer from very dark winters.  The same applies to Germany,
although the name Durmstrang, as we've noted before, is a play on the phrase
'Sturm und Drang' (Storm and Stress), describing a German literary movement
championed by Goethe, among others.  

The European borders we recognise are part of the political and cultural
divisions of the Muggle world, but they may be different or even
non-existent in the Wizarding world.  I think the best we can say is that
Durmstrang is located in a place which is not defined in terms of a Muggle
country, but just in the far north of Europe, bordering the Arctic Circle.  

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 15:36:52 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:36:52 +0100
Subject: Location of Durmstrang
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000903153652.00742830@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 849

Sorry folks, I meant to change that focaccia heading to something more
suitable in that last post of mine - it was all about Dumstrang with no
mention of Italian bread whatsoever.  

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 15:31:44 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:31:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Musings on loyalty
References: <8otord+9ktc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B26EE0.2AE98991@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 850

Jim Hohman wrote:

Peg loved your long piece on loyalty.  Oh, that the corporate world

> had some understanding of the concept as you expound.  Your piece
> should be required reading for executives.
>
> Jim

Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses, and I was
just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really fell with a thud.)

Peg




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep  3 16:46:02 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:46:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <v02140baeb5d830404ec4@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 851


>It's incorrect to say Durmstrang is "NOT in Russia".  Durmstrang *could* be
>in Russia, part of which, as Firebolt said, is in Europe.  Murmansk, for
>example, in northern Russia, is just west of the northern tips of Norway and
>Finland (in the vicinity of Lappland).  Also, Viktor describes flying over
>lakes and mountains, and south of Murmansk, just near the White Sea, is a
>region very heavy in lakes.  I still favour a location in Norway, but Russia
>is a strong possibility.
>
>The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, so the USSR no longer exists.  Any
>fanfic writers placing Durmstrang in the USSR are, therefore, a little
>behind the times.
>
But if you're writing a MWPP fanfiction, the USSR would be correct since
they'd be taking place probably in the early 70's or late 60's.

I think that the wizarding world must use the same political boundaries
that Muggles use, or else they wouldn't be talking about England and
Scotland and Ireland.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep  3 15:51:12 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:51:12 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Durmstrang
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000903155112.00756ba8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 852

At 11:46 09/03/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>It's incorrect to say Durmstrang is "NOT in Russia".  Durmstrang *could* be
>>in Russia, part of which, as Firebolt said, is in Europe.  Murmansk, for
>>example, in northern Russia, is just west of the northern tips of Norway and
>>Finland (in the vicinity of Lappland).  Also, Viktor describes flying over
>>lakes and mountains, and south of Murmansk, just near the White Sea, is a
>>region very heavy in lakes.  I still favour a location in Norway, but Russia
>>is a strong possibility.
>>
>>The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, so the USSR no longer exists.  Any
>>fanfic writers placing Durmstrang in the USSR are, therefore, a little
>>behind the times.
>>
>But if you're writing a MWPP fanfiction, the USSR would be correct since
>they'd be taking place probably in the early 70's or late 60's.

Good point! I take that back.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:01:28 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:01:28 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <39B24EF9.EE875663@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8otsko+hemv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 853

I think I have very similar thoughts about Draco's character changing 
a lot in the next book; I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about 
it back at Yahoo.  Basically, I think we have seen depressingly 
little indication that Draco will "reform" but I think if he is ever 
going to improve as a person, the turning point will be *now*.
In my opinion, Lucius might not dare come home at all, for fear that 
Dumbledore will come after him, and without his father's influence or 
protection, Draco is almost definitely going to have to clean up his 
act.  If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well known, I doubt 
Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at Hogwarts, especially 
if people make the connection between him and Cedric's death.  I can 
even foresee people openly hating and/or harrassing Draco, Crabbe, 
Goyle, and any other children of Death Eaters (taste of their own 
medicine after the whole "mudblood" thing), and this, if anything, 
might teach Draco some humility.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Trina wrote:
> 
> I cannot remember if this has been brought up before since we are
> 
> > such a prolific group, but I was wondering about this earlier and
> > thought I'd ask y'all's opinion.
> >
> > Do the Dursley's have *any* idea what happened to Harry with 
Voldy in
> > the graveyard at the end of term? They are always so ugly to him,
> > even though lately it has been tempered with fear.  Would 
Dumledore
> > have sent an owl to explain what transpired as well as a command 
to
> > behave themselves around Harry?  By "behaving" I mean being at 
least
> > superficially decent.  After all, Harry survived a situation which
> > would have left any of them wetting their britches in terror.  
And it
> > is apparent that the whole experience will haunt him for a long
> > while.  He does have a tendency to brood about things, a trait 
that
> > is understandable given his history.   And his feeling responsible
> > for Cedric's death gives him much to brood about.
> >
> > Been brooding about this for awhile myself...
> >
> > Trina
> >
> 
> I've been thinking about this, too, Trina, and I can't help that 
this summer
> is going to be different for Harry.  Specifically, I think that what
> happened to Harry has aged him, and that after facing Voldemort, I 
think he
> will act less like a child who obeys than an adult who says 
coldly, "No, I
> don't think so," when Uncle Vernon tells him how high to jump.  
After what
> he's been through, I just see him putting up with much from the 
Dursleys.
> 
> What also has really struck me is how different Draco's summer 
holiday might
> be.  I think Draco might really be at a similar turning point.  
Cornelius
> Fudge might not believe it, but Lucius Malfoy has really gone back 
to
> Voldemort, now.  Draco might have sneered at H, R and Hr about 
Cedric's
> death, but when he goes back home, he's going to be facing parents 
(or at
> least a father) who are working actively to promote the dark 
powers.  Will
> what he sees this summer shake him up a little?  Will he start 
having second
> thoughts about his loyalties?  Will Daddy maybe have a little less 
time to
> pay attention to Dudley because he's started murdering people?  How 
will
> that make Draco feel?
> 
> And what will Draco be like when HE comes back to Hogworts?  Even 
more
> swaggering and sneering?  Or . . . maybe, a bit thoughtful and 
quieter, and
> not so quick to sneer?
> 
> Comments?




From warmsley at btinternet.com  Sun Sep  3 15:59:11 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:59:11 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bill's Job and McCarthy
Message-ID: <01c015bf$e663a240$36ad01d5@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 854

>>I rather suspect she plans to have someone British talk about
>>him in a piece - if thats the case, well, for instance,
Hermione
>>would know, Harry almost certainly wouldnt (raised in a
>>cupboard, after all), and Ron definitley wouldn't.
>>
>>Jeremy
>>
>Well, Ron's dead in this scenario so it wouldn't matter, but
what I in fact
>am doing is putting in a bit character named Joe McCarthy and
Harry makes a
>comment about it.  I just wanted to know if it were at all
plausible that a
>26 year old British citizen would have heard of Joseph
McCarthy.
>

The average one wouldn't, but I think that the Harry that
Harry's turned out to be in PoU would, if you see what I mean
;-). So you should be OK there.

Jeremy




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep  3 16:08:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:08:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Location of Dumstrang (Was: Re: Focaccia and  Harry Potter)
References: <11.8b5256a.26e3a6d1@aol.com> <001601c015a8$d5b0d9c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <39B2777C.3596032B@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 855

>

Bulgaria is also very definitely part of Europe - on the Black Sea, between Albania & Greece


>
>   From: Ellimist15 at aol.com
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Focaccia and Harry Potter
>
>        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!
>
>   People keep overlooking this, and I've begun to find it a bit irritating. Durmstrang is NOT in Russia or Bulgaria. It's somewhere in Europe. Remember when Hermione was talking about "An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe", and Durmstrang was mentioned as having a lot of emphasis on the Dark Arts? Geez, if I see one more MWPP fic that mentions Durmstrang in the USSR...
>
>   Ellie
>   "Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunatedly, fulfill neither requirement." --Uncle Voldie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 14:28:02 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:28:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Anime (Was: Re: Picture Books)
References: <8otn6t+95ug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ae01c015b3$2bd9d7c0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 856

kewl!  Any gifts would be appreciated?  Hint hint... lol.

I guess I will have to put the word in and wait until Christmas.

;P
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Hohman 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:28 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Anime (Was: Re: Picture Books)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  You probably know this already but Princess Mononoke (Sp?)came out on 
  video last week.   Jim



  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dr M M <drmm at J...> wrote:
  > >From: Neil Ward <neilward at d...>
  > >
  > >Ooops! Terribly sorry, Dr MM.  Actually, I wasn't talking about
  > animation or
  > >anime, I was thinking about illustrated books in the same style, 
  but I
  > >expect I still sinned by calling the artists 'cartoonists'.  You 
  know, I
  > >should have learned my lesson by now, since one of my brothers 
  lectures
  > on
  > >animation and gets rattled when I tell people that he "watches 
  cartoons
  > for
  > >a living" (in my cheeky, big-brotherly way).  
  > 
  > Hehehe, no big deal :)  I just had to say something. . . and btw, I 
  envy
  > your brother. . . What a fun job that would be :)
  > 
  > >So, fill me in: anime is the Japanese animation, but what is the 
  comic
  > book
  > >equivalent called?  Is that also called anime?  Shouldn't it be 
  called
  > >illustre? What are the artists called?  Animartists?  Anime
  > illustrators? 
  > 
  > The "comic book" equivalents are called "manga".  However, unlike 
  U.S.
  > comic books they aren't short fifteen page things and are rarely (if
  > ever) in color.  They're basically graphic novels.  As for what the
  > creators are called. . . I'm not sure.  I usually call them manga 
  artists
  > or illustrators or something like that.  They might have a term in
  > Japanese that I don't know though.
  > 
  > >Continuing this very large OT aside about anime, the Sci-Fi
  Channel 
  here
  > >just had a whole week of anime features.  I only saw bits, but I 
  loved
  > the
  > >style.  I've also watched the Pokemon cartoons, sorry, ahem -
  anime 
  -
  > and
  > >they seemed like kids' stuff in comparison.  
  > 
  > Pokemon, IMO (and probably in most anime fans opinions), is an 
  inferior
  > subset of anime, barely worthy to don the name.  But Pokemon *was*
  > intended for a children's audience in Japan, so in a way, you're 
  right. 
  > One of the interesting things about anime is there are so many 
  different
  > genre's of anime.  There's the traditional shonen (guys) / shoujo 
  (girls)
  > anime distinction, but there's also anime aimed at different age 
  groups. 
  > Card Captor Sakura (now airing as Cardcaptors -- edited of course
  -- 
  on
  > Kids WB) is shoujo but it's also more for children than adults 
  (although,
  > that doesn't stop adults like me from adoring it).  An anime series 
  like
  > Marmalade Boy is shoujo, but as it's a high school romance (rather 
  soap
  > opera-ish) it's more for teenagers than children.  Pokemon is 
  probably
  > considered shonen, but it's for younger kids, whereas a shonen
  title 
  like
  > Ninja Scroll (one of the few anime's I absolutely despised) is for 
  adults
  > (or maybe older teenage boys).  And then there's the "creators on 
  crack"
  > type of metaphysical questioning anime's like Evangelion, Serial
  > Experiments Lain and Ghost in the Shell. . . . 
  > 
  > And of course, I must mention the *master* of Japanese animation: 
  Hayao
  > Miyazaki.  He's frequently called the Disney of Japan (and his
  plots 
  are
  > *far* superior to Disney's IMO) and until recently his work held the
  > Japanese box office record (inexplicably, Titanic beat it -- 
  although,
  > Titanic surpassed many far superior works in the US too. . .).  
  > 
  > Blech.  I'm getting terribly long-winded right now so I'll shut up 
  :)  I
  > tend to go long when talking about my favorite hobby. . . .
  > 
  > *~*~*~*~*~*~*
  > DrMM can be reached at drmm at j... or #9689360 on ICQ
  > The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
  > Most Recent Anime: Irresponsible Captain Tyler
  > ________________________________________________________________
  > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
  > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
  > Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
  > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 16:30:51 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 11:30:51 -0500
Subject: Mystified
References: <1.5.4.32.20000903155112.00756ba8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B27CBB.ADC223EB@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 857

>
> >But if you're writing a MWPP fanfiction . . .

Ok, I've waited, trying to figure it out, but I finally have to ask.  What does
the acronym MWPP stand for?  (And I'm sure I'll feel pretty stupid when someone
takes pity and explains it to me.)

Peg




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:30:43 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:30:43 -0000
Subject: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts)
In-Reply-To: <8osguo+1lg3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8otubj+iu2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 858

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Melanie Moore 
<ravenclawlady at y...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > Maybe a Mind Reading Quill would be more accurate.
> 
> Oooh! A wizarding version of Truth or Dare! Why isn't THIS a fanfic 
> cliche? The small group of friends gathers privately to pass around 
> the Truth Quill and write answers to such questions as "With whom 
> are you in love?"

Actually, Rita, it is.  :-)  I've seen it in at least five different 
fics.  One of which I've recommended here is about Sirius in MWPP 
days traveling forward in time to a 21st dystopian wizarding world.  

Another, of less stellar writing quality but hilarious nonetheless, 
is about a HLP (Hermione, Lavendar, Parvati) Truth or Dare game that 
is the cause of Miss Granger's rep being dragged through the mud.  
(Deja vu--didn't that happen in GoF?)

Thanks for your condolences about my MSs, BTW.  They make wonderful 
drawer paper... as do the rejection slips.  ;)

Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will check out Peg Kerr's work as soon as she 
has two nickels to rub together)




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:34:06 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:34:06 -0000
Subject: Mystified
In-Reply-To: <39B27CBB.ADC223EB@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8otuhu+6ag3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 859

Peg wrote:  

<< Ok, I've waited, trying to figure it out, but I finally have to 
ask.  What does the acronym MWPP stand for?  (And I'm sure I'll feel 
pretty stupid when someone takes pity and explains it to me.)>>

You're not the first to have been puzzled by this, don't worry.  It 
stands for Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.  An MWPP fanfiction 
would feature one of those as the main character.  It also suggests 
the generation of Harry's parents in general.    

~Blaise.  





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:52:10 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:52:10 -0000
Subject: PoU
Message-ID: <8otvjq+6jm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 860

I know I probably should have paid more attention, but can someone 
just tell me where I can find Paradigm of Uncertainty?  I had 
thought it would be on fanfiction.net but I guess not.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:52:24 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:52:24 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
In-Reply-To: <39B26EE0.2AE98991@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8otvk8+cfbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 861

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Jim Hohman wrote:
> 
> Peg loved your long piece on loyalty.  Oh, that the corporate world
> 
> > had some understanding of the concept as you expound.  Your piece
> > should be required reading for executives.
> >
> > Jim
> 
> Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses, 
and I was
> just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really fell with a 
thud.)
> 
> Peg

I'm posting just to say that it didn't, Peg... loyalty vs. betrayal 
is a central theme of these stories and your musings were on target.  
Who the traitors in the upcoming novels will be is a matter of fun 
speculation.

I'm trying my darndest not to be swayed by the Running Weasel 
theorists (150+ English/Language and Drama students included, minus 
about 10-15 who could care less).  However plausible the arguments 
might be, I don't think it's in Ron's character to betray a kid who's 
been like a brother to him, jealousy notwithstanding.  For God's 
sake, he's a *Weasley*, a member of the coolest family in this 
particular universe.  Like certain weird ships, I'd have to see JKR 
write it to believe it.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 16:59:47 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:59:47 -0000
Subject: Draco at Hogwarts (was Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy)
In-Reply-To: <8otsko+hemv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou023+b6m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 862

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well known, I doubt 
> Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at Hogwarts, 
especially 
> if people make the connection between him and Cedric's death.  I 
can 
> even foresee people openly hating and/or harrassing Draco, Crabbe, 
> Goyle, and any other children of Death Eaters (taste of their own 
> medicine after the whole "mudblood" thing), and this, if anything, 
> might teach Draco some humility.


Do you really think this is what will happen?  I tend to think that 
the opposite will occur... when Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle's fathers' 
Death Eatership becomes common knowledge, their sons will become 
hated and feared.  Not harassed.  Not by kids whose parents still 
say "You Know Who" a decade and a half after Voldemort got blasted at 
Godric's Hollow.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep  3 18:04:58 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:04:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoU
Message-ID: <v02140bb3b5d84326bf7d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 863

>
>I know I probably should have paid more attention, but can someone
>just tell me where I can find Paradigm of Uncertainty?  I had
>thought it would be on fanfiction.net but I guess not.
>
Nope, it's there.  Do a search for the word "paradigm" and you'll find
it...14 chapters.

Or search for my name, I just go by Lori on ff.net.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:06:41 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:06:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Musings on loyalty
References: <8otord+9ktc@eGroups.com> <39B26EE0.2AE98991@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c015c9$58d77960$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 864

Peg,
I loved it too, just was speechless!
Grins.
Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 11:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] RE: Musings on loyalty



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Jim Hohman wrote:

  Peg loved your long piece on loyalty.  Oh, that the corporate world

  > had some understanding of the concept as you expound.  Your piece
  > should be required reading for executives.
  >
  > Jim

  Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses, and I was
  just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really fell with a thud.)

  Peg


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:11:58 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:11:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mystified
References: <1.5.4.32.20000903155112.00756ba8@popmail.dircon.co.uk> <39B27CBB.ADC223EB@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <005101c015ca$11a6e020$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 865

The four Marauders=Moonie, Wormtail, Prongs and Padfoot.

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:30 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mystified



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  >
  > >But if you're writing a MWPP fanfiction . . .

  Ok, I've waited, trying to figure it out, but I finally have to ask.  What does
  the acronym MWPP stand for?  (And I'm sure I'll feel pretty stupid when someone
  takes pity and explains it to me.)

  Peg


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:15:58 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:15:58 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <39B24EF9.EE875663@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ou10e+p8nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 866

Peg,

I don't see the Durselys treating Harry any better this summer than 
last, when they at least left him alone for fear of Sirius Black.

I get  bothered sometimes by how, in the wizarding world, some bad 
things are allowed to happen.  A lot of schools wouldn't tolerate 
Snape's behavior towards some students, nor would they tolerate 
teaching as poor as Gilderoy Lockhart's was.  Back on the point, 
though, I'd have to guess Dumbledore wouldn't have contacted the 
Dursleys and attempted to change their behavior.

Peg Kerr wrote,
> What also has really struck me is how different Draco's summer 
holiday might  be.  I think Draco might really be at a similar
turning point.  Cornelius Fudge might not believe it, but Lucius 
Malfoy has really gone back to Voldemort, now.  Draco might have 
sneered at H, R and Hr about Cedric's  death, but when he goes back 
home, he's going to be facing parents (or at least a father) who are 
working actively to promote the dark powers.  Will what he sees this 
summer shake him up a little?  Will he start having second thoughts 
about his loyalties?  Will Daddy maybe have a little less time to  pay
attention to Dudley [you meant Draco, I'm sure] because he's started 
murdering people?  How will that make Draco feel? And what will Draco 
be like when HE comes back to Hogworts?  Even more  swaggering and 
sneering?Or . . . maybe, a bit thoughtful and quieter, and not so 
quick to sneer?
>

Good thoughts.  It ties in with my notions of of one of the things
JKR is trying to do in these books.  Among other things, she wants
her 
young readers to realize that bad is *bad*. 

I don't know how many messages I've seen on boards frequented by 
younger readers that say "wouldn't it be cool if Harry went to the 
Dark Side?" "I think the Dark stuff is cool!"  That kind of thing. 
These kids have grown up on cartoon-funny Scooby-Doo villains and 
moved on to the cooler than the good guy Disney villains and the
World 
Wrestling Federation [their HQ is about 600 feet from where I'm 
sitting].  Heck, a lot of us grew up watching the bumbling funny Nazi 
guards on Hogan's Heroes, a program I found offensive.  

Your point is that Draco is going to have to come to grips with what 
it means to be Dark, the same journey I hope some of the readers
take. 
It's the same journey Snape made and still struggles with. Will it 
come out the same way?




From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 17:25:32 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:25:32 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
In-Reply-To: <39B26EE0.2AE98991@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ou1ic+cka1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 867

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote 
replying to 
tbat Jim Hohman wrote:
> 
> Peg loved your long piece on loyalty. >.....

as follows

> Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses,
and I was
> just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really fell with a
thud.)

Yeah, but those of us who grew up on Usenet know that it is generally 
considered  waste of bandwidth to post simple "You're right" or "I 
agree'" messages, if we don't have something else constructive to
add.  
So there are probably a lot of people like me who nodded thoughtfully 
at that and went on.

-Brooks





From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 17:26:00 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:26:00 -0000
Subject: Draco at Hogwarts (was Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy)
In-Reply-To: <8ou023+b6m3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou1j8+m357@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 868

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
 
> Do you really think this is what will happen?  I tend to think that 
> the opposite will occur... when Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle's fathers' 
> Death Eatership becomes common knowledge, their sons will become 
> hated and feared.  Not harassed.  Not by kids whose parents still 
> say "You Know Who" a decade and a half after Voldemort got blasted 
at  Godric's Hollow.

Ebony, Lucius Malfoy's identity as a Death Eater may not become
widely 
known among the student body.  I'm not sure Harry will tell it
widely, 
and I don't think Dumbledore will publicize it either. Of couse the 
MoM won't.  

Draco is going to have to come to grips with what it means to be a 
Death Eater, won't he? He might have to make the same journey Snape 
made. With the same results?





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 17:40:38 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:40:38 -0000
Subject: Chat Schedule Ramblings
Message-ID: <8ou2em+rm4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 869

Hi:

When exactly do we chat on Sundays?  I'm always either too early or 
too late to join in for the full time.  Also, what happened with the 
egroups chat experiment last week?  I'm not sure if the results were 
posted here or not.  I don't want to keep the Yahoo! address in my 
Favorites list if we're not going to be there anymore.

I won't be able to chat today... I shouldn't even be online now b/c I 
have a ton of things that are SCREAMING at me right now to do and a 
gaggle of hands coming to help me finish moving.  :(  It's the first 
chat I've missed since I've joined HP4GU.  Have lots of fun, you 
regulars, and let us know what you talked about via summary!

I'm also now wondering if there isn't an alternate day of the week 
for those who can't make Sunday chats.  Sunday afternoons, as all you 
teachers out there know, are Last Minute Lesson Plan and Paper Trail 
Catch-Up Days.  My church also claims miscellaneous Sundays for 
various events, programs, and services September-June.  Also I'll be 
cooking Sunday dinner for my family quite often after Labor Day, and 
there's no way AOL will let me stay on while I mash potatoes.  :) 

Do we have enough who'd be willing to chat on another day during the 
week... if not now, once we get over the hump of the winter holidays 
and draw closer to Book 5's release?  I'd be willing to pitch in to 
make it work.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:05:37 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:05:37 -0000
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <8ou3th+c7pr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 870

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "ReEse" <fuelchic at e...> wrote:
>    hi katie! :) Anyway, I think it's best for me to introduce 
> myself since I'm also new here. My name is Reese,

Hi, Reese!

> I've read a few in <fanfiction.net> and personally, I think that
> most of them lack story in them

I understand why people would complain about bad writing styles and 
out-of-character behaviour, but not why people do complain about lack 
of plot (story). People watch travelogues on TV, listen to interviews 
with celebrities, write letters to their friends : all little 
snapshots of a piece of daily life of someone (or somewhere) 
interesting rather than a story with a plot.

> In Harry Potter and the SS, Harry and Ron passed a ghost of a tall
> witch in a corridor while on their way to the room where the Mirror
> of Erised was located. Could've that been the Grey Lady? Didn't JKR
> say one time in an interview that Harry had passed by the Grey Lady
> at one time?

Yes and yes.




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 18:09:11 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chat Schedule Ramblings
Message-ID: <20000903180911.23010.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 871


--- Ebony Elizabeth <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Do we have enough who'd be willing to chat on another day
> during the 
> week... if not now, once we get over the hump of the winter
> holidays 
> and draw closer to Book 5's release?  I'd be willing to pitch
> in to 
> make it work.
> 
> Ebony AKA AngieJ
> 
> 


Now that we have a built-in poll function, why don't I set one
up to find out?  I did try that months ago (using a separate
site), but so many people were happy with the Sunday time, that
it didn't get much response.  I could easily try it again,
however.

Melanie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:16:22 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:16:22 -0000
Subject: Durmstrang (was: Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <004601c01580$2b30f5c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8ou4hm+3961@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 872

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> The three most spoken languages in Europe (this is mostly 
> guesswork, here, could someone confirm this?) are probably English,
> Russian, and French, which corresponds to the Triwizard schools, 
> and those are the largest ones.
>   (snip)
> So there should be multiple ones in Russia, as well, meaning that
> Durmstrang is the largest and there are a couple of smaller ones 
> elsewhere. Unless Durmstrang is Bulgarian, which I don't believe 
> because Russia is a lot bigger than Bulgaria, so it should have a
> bigger school somewhere - and anyway it's not such a stretch for 
> Krum to speak Russian.

Durmstrang can't be in Bulgaria and can't even be in the southern 
half of Norway, according to Tigerlily from Norway who was in one of 
these e-mail-lists and said that the shortness of daylight of 
Durmstrang as described by Krum was further north than where she 
lives in Norway.

I believe that Durmstrang is in Latvia (which is in Europe and was in 
the former USSR) and its language of instruction is German: for a 
couple of centuries, there were a LOT of Germans living in Latvia. 
The students whose first language is something Slavic wouldn't be any 
worse off than all medieval students whose schools taught in Latin!

I believe that the locations of the greatest wizarding schools is 
less related to the current location of Muggle national borders than 
to the location of said Muggle borders 1000 years ago when the 
schools were founded. Okay, I really am thinking less than 1000 
years when I suggest Beauxbatons as the school of the Bourbon 
Empire (and Mme. Maxime telling Dumbledore that her giant flying 
horses only drink single-malt whisky is a pun on Bourbon whisky) 
and Durmstrang as the school of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. 





From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Sun Sep  3 18:18:23 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 3 Sep 2000 18:18:23 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968005103.641@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 873


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


For those of you who can't make the 
Sunday chat (or just want to chat twice 
a week), what day(s) would be best for 
you for a second weekly chat? 

  o Monday 
  o Tuesday 
  o Wednesday 
  o Thursday 
  o Friday 
  o Satuday 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:20:46 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:20:46 -0000
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <c4.8b63039.26e3a4da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ou4pu+ok9i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 874

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> My name is Ellie Rosenthal,(snip)

Hi, Ellie.

> I have a website dedicated to the word etymology in the books 
> (spells, names, etc.) which I've already mentioned here.

I've tried out your site. While I very much admire the amount of work 
that went into it, I found that enough of the information is not 
very accurate that I stopped using the site. Sorry. 






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:24:35 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:24:35 -0000
Subject: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <39B24D7F.B81E330D@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ou513+sab2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 875

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> That's a pretty good idea, Rita (why don't you write it?)

I discovered DECADES ago that I am as unable to write fiction as I am 
to fly by flapping my arms. Essays are my thing. But all you people 
in these e-mail-lists have seduced me into trying yet again -- I 
have produced more dreadful beginnings of dreadful fanfics in the
last three months than in the past 15 years!




From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 18:25:33 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:25:33 -0000
Subject: McCarthy -  was: A question for our British friends...
In-Reply-To: <01c01526$87e44b00$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <8ou52t+ffil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 876

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Warmsley" <warmsley at b...> wrote:
> >Okay, Brits only please.  This question does have some
> relevance to something.


> >...
> 
> Bloke who claimed to have list of 50 people in Senate who were
> communists?


Actually it was in the State Department, not the Senate.  


Some people aren't going to like this, because  McCarthy was a
clearly a b*****d, a horrendous bully, and doing this solely for 
political gain - but since the fall of the Soviet Union we have found 
out that he was basically right.

  Around 1995 the US started declassifying the VENONA transcripts, 
which was a code-name for the program where we had found, intercepted
 - and decoded  - the messages sent by the NKVD guy who ran Soviet 
intelligence operations in the US from late in WWII through the early 
1950's.  Because we were actually reading the Russian Spymaster's
mail, we know that there really *were* a surprisingly large number of
people in the State Department and other areas of the US government
who 
were providing information to Soviet intelligence.  There was even an 
Undersecretary of the Treasury, one of the guys who participated in
the Bretton Woods conference which laid out post WWII international 
economic policy for a generation, who was also in the pay of the
Soviet government. It has been impossible to identify most of these 
people, because even in the encoded messages, those people who had
been 
recruited and were providing reports, were referred to by code names.
 
There was an occasional slip-up though.....

Even stranger, Omar Bradley, post- WWII chairman of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff, refused to pass this information up to President Truman, who
as a result believed that some of the people who were accused of
things 
were simply political targets.  In fact there was proof that they
were guilty, but to have put that evidence in court would have
exposed 
the intercept operation and the ability to read the code - which would
have cut off the value of the intelligence we got from reading it.

With the information obtained from the FSU itself, and the
transcripts of these messages, a lot of history books are having to be
re-written.  
Some things that it has been popular for 40 years to write off as 
"anti-communist paranoia' turns out to have been quite literally
true.  
And while communism itself may be 'just an economic theory', I doubt 
that that viewpoint would get much sympathy from the 15 million
Russian 
and especially Ukrainian people who starved to death in the 1930's
from 
forced collectivization, or the unknown number of students and others 
who died at Tienanmen Square.  Those governments that claimed to have 
espoused it created one of the two nastiest politcal systems the
world 
has ever seen.  They are among the true Dark Wizards of our times.


-Brooks A Rowlett





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:29:02 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:29:02 -0000
Subject: European Borders (was:Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000903153414.00748bd8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8ou59e+mg8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 877

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:

> The European borders we recognise are part of the political and
> cultural divisions of the Muggle world, but they may be different
> or even non-existent in the Wizarding world

Hear, hear!




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:31:20 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:31:20 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
In-Reply-To: <39B26EE0.2AE98991@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ou5do+n8bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 878

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses,
> and I was  just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really
> fell with a thud.)

If YOUR post, with all those replies, fell with a thud, then what did 
my post (#808) replying to your post, and getting no replies at all 
to its questions about Death Eater loyalty and Draco's motives in re 
Harry, do?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:38:23 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:38:23 -0000
Subject: Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <v02140baeb5d830404ec4@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8ou5qv+upme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 879

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> 
> I think that the wizarding world must use the same political
> boundaries that Muggles use, or else they wouldn't be talking about
> England and Scotland and Ireland.

Those could be language-region boundaries English and Scots Gaelic 
and Irish Gaelic. Do you think the wizarding boundaries change 
whenever the Muggle boundaries do? England and Scotland were 
separate countries, often at war, until James I added the English 
throne to the Scotch throne he already had in 1603, and I'm not 
sure when Great Britain conquered Ireland but I remember that neither 
John Lackland's nor Elizabeth I's nor Cromwell's conquests of Ireland 
lasted very long. But at the beginning of this century, the whole 
island of Ireland belonged to the United Kingdom, but then part of 
the island became independent as the Republic of Ireland. Did the 
wizards change their country every time the Muggles play those 
games?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:44:30 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:44:30 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
In-Reply-To: <8otvk8+cfbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou66e+e65u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 880

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> I'm trying my darndest not to be swayed by the Running Weasel 
> theorists (150+ English/Language and Drama students included, minus 
> about 10-15 who could care less).  However plausible the arguments 
> might be, I don't think it's in Ron's character to betray a kid 
> who's  been like a brother to him, jealousy notwithstanding. 

My friend Lee, the ABD in English Literature, studied a lot about the 
matiere de Bretagne (which starts with Welsh sources like the 
Mabinogion and the Triads) in preparation for writing her unpublished 
novel about Morgaine le Fay. 

So I asked Lee if there was any reason to believe that there could 
have been an ancient British tale of a strategist named Running 
Weasel. She doesn't believe that there was actually such a tale 
any more than I do.

Altho' I keep wondering why that family is named WEASELy rather than 
BUNNY...  




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep  3 18:46:42 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:46:42 -0700
Subject: Bad is bad
In-Reply-To: <8ou10e+p8nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEBLCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 881

Speaking of this, our co-member Blaise has started a new fanfic about
Snape's experiences as a Death-Eater, and the conflicts with his
conscience -- good stuff.  It's called "A Second Chance" and can be found on
http://www.fanfiction.net



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Ferer [mailto:jferer at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:16 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy

Good thoughts.  It ties in with my notions of of one of the things
JKR is trying to do in these books.  Among other things, she wants
her young readers to realize that bad is *bad*. ....

....Your point is that Draco is going to have to come to grips with what
it means to be Dark, the same journey I hope some of the readers
take.
It's the same journey Snape made and still struggles with. Will it
come out the same way?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 18:50:54 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:50:54 -0000
Subject: Bad Things Happen (was: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <8ou10e+p8nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou6ie+86q4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 882

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Ferer"  wrote:

> I get  bothered sometimes by how, in the wizarding world, some bad 
> things are allowed to happen.  A lot of schools wouldn't tolerate 
> Snape's behavior towards some students, nor would they tolerate 
> teaching as poor as Gilderoy Lockhart's was.  Back on the point, 
> though, I'd have to guess Dumbledore wouldn't have contacted the 
> Dursleys and attempted to change their behavior.

One of the reviewers praised JKR for writing in the worldview of 
middle school kids. Who, among other things, perceive themselves 
as surrounded by bad things that are allowed to happen, such as 
cruel, unfair teachers and parents. I'm no longer a middle school 
kid, but still have that perception. Thus, I was surprised to hear 
"A lot of schools wouldn't tolerate Snape's behavior towards 
some students."




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 18:55:14 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:55:14 -0000
Subject: Draco at Hogwarts (was Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy)
In-Reply-To: <8ou023+b6m3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou6qi+se8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 883

Well, maybe "harrassed" is the wrong word; maybe I mean "ostracized"--
I suspect even many of the other Slytherins are not going to want to 
associate with Draco.  It will be at this point that he wil discover 
that any "friends" he made because of his money, influence (via daddy 
Malfoy), or scheming might not want anything more to do with him.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
> wrote:
> If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well known, I doubt 
> > Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at Hogwarts, 
> especially 
> > if people make the connection between him and Cedric's death.  I 
> can 
> > even foresee people openly hating and/or harrassing Draco, 
Crabbe, 
> > Goyle, and any other children of Death Eaters (taste of their own 
> > medicine after the whole "mudblood" thing), and this, if 
anything, 
> > might teach Draco some humility.
> 
> 
> Do you really think this is what will happen?  I tend to think that 
> the opposite will occur... when Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle's fathers' 
> Death Eatership becomes common knowledge, their sons will become 
> hated and feared.  Not harassed.  Not by kids whose parents still 
> say "You Know Who" a decade and a half after Voldemort got blasted 
at 
> Godric's Hollow.
> 
> Ebony AKA AngieJ




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 19:01:08 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:01:08 -0400
Subject: Fanfic
Message-ID: <000c01c015d9$51a49140$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 884

OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!

Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only one so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" version, and something about people in closets that was too confusing.

:@
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Sep  3 19:12:54 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 15:12:54 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwar
Message-ID: <id.03092000151254.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 885

Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will check out Peg Kerr's work as soon as she  has two nickels to rub together)

Ebony, I finished both of Peg's books.  The first was very enjoyable, so I rushed right out for her "The Wild Swans."  Now, I really liked her first - "Emerald House Rising," but the second was absolutely INCREDIBLE!  I was riding Amtrak, on my way to visit my parents, and there were moments when I was literally weeping, and not especially caring what the other commuters were thinking.  So for anyone who is in need of some very good reads, I highly recommend Peg's books.



From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 19:12:48 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:12:48 -0000
Subject: Durmstrang (was: Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <8ou4hm+3961@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ou7rg+9o6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 886

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> 
> Durmstrang can't be in Bulgaria and can't even be in the southern 
> half of Norway, according to Tigerlily from Norway who was in one
of 
> these e-mail-lists and said that the shortness of daylight of 
> Durmstrang as described by Krum was further north than where she 
> lives in Norway.


Actually i don't think that is a clear disproval.  Someone who grew
up 
in southern Norway would think the night lengths in winter she was
used 
to, were perfectly normal.  But someone who grew up in Bulgaria would 
think that even southern Norway's winter nights were depressingly
long.
Bulgaria is about the same latitude as New York City, but Southern 
Norway is at the same latitude as the southern Alaska or the middle
of 
Hudson's Bay or the south tip of Greenland.

-Brooks





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 19:38:59 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:38:59 +0200
Subject: Latin Noises & Remus' Name
References: <8omgsd+pu31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a301c015de$9d214460$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 887

> Of course Lupin's name is derived from latin, but I'm confused w/ the
> pronunction of Remus - is it RAY-mus or REE-mus ?

I'm three days late on this, but just wanted to add my salt: as a kid in
Italy, I was taught  learned to pronounce that kind of "e" the same as a
modern Italian "e."  To wit, a bit longer than the "e" in egg but a bit
shorter than the "ay" above.    Hence, more of a RAY-mus.  To get "REE-mus"
you would have had to write "Rimus."

Caveat Lector: But that's just applying modern Italian prononciation to
Latin, which proves nothing.  As far as I know, no one really knows how
those old guys talked.

Caveat Mike: My old Latin teacher would have me dragged in a spiked barrel
behind a bounding chariot for saying that.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 19:25:23 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 15:25:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hi
Message-ID: <5a.a43e670.26e3ffa3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 888

What info isn't accurate? I'll adjust it immediately! I had practically everything backed up by Encyclopedia Mythica, Encarta, and a list of Latin Words. Please tell me!

Ellie

In a message dated Sun, 3 Sep 2000  2:21:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net> writes:


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> My name is Ellie Rosenthal,(snip)

Hi, Ellie.

> I have a website dedicated to the word etymology in the books 
> (spells, names, etc.) which I've already mentioned here.

I've tried out your site. While I very much admire the amount of work 
that went into it, I found that enough of the information is not 
very accurate that I stopped using the site. Sorry. 




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 19:36:01 2000
From: Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com (Katie Bell)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:36:01 -0000
Subject: Loyalty and Harry's Upbringing
Message-ID: <8ou971+fcu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 889

Ok, my first real post, let's stick my neck out here...

Pat, I like your 'deep thoughts' on loyalty.  Reminds me of a few 
conversations I've had now and then, and it brought something to 
mind.  Perhaps this is the reason why Snape turned back to the 'good 
side' (is there an official name for that?).  As you said, Voldemort 
hardly inspires real loyality -fear, yes, but loyalty like Harry, 
Hermione and Ron have?  Of course not.  That's something that the 
good guys have.  Could Snape have seen this and realized what 
Voldemort's side really was?  Just my idea...

And about why Harry turned out ok: I have two ideas.  One is that he 
would have turned out ok regardless, just because he had good 
parents, and nevermind the outside circumstances.  I don't think this 
one is right; J.K. has been pretty specific with lines like "It's not 
who you're born it's who you become" and such.  My other theory is 
rather bizarre: snce Lily died to protect him, does the protection 
have to be just against evil people?  Or could it somehow have kept 
him 'on the straight and narrow'?  Does anyone have any ideas about 
this?

Katie Bell




From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 19:36:14 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:36:14 -0000
Subject: Hugos - best novel is not PoA, sorry
Message-ID: <8ou97e+3jhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 890

Just checked the Worldcon website <http://www.chicon.org>.  The Hugos 
were awarded last night.  Prisoner of Azkaban was fourth in
nominating 
votes.  The winner was Vernor Vinge's _A deepness in the Sky_.  Oh
wel. 
- even being nominated is an honor. :-)

-Brooks





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 19:36:59 2000
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jen Piersol)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:36:59 -0000
Subject: A Question about Wheezes...
Message-ID: <8ou98r+oiqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 891

Hi all.  Neil told me a (long) while ago what a Knickerbocker Glory 
was... and now I have another question for the British members of
our club... does the word "wheezes" mean something specific in
British English?  I have a vague memory of seeing it somewhere other
than GoF, so it makes me suspect that it's not just a madeup word -
I hope I'm not looking incredibly stupid for asking... and I hope
I'm not the only American who's never heard of whatever wheezes 
are.... that is, if they actually do exist.

Jen




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 20:02:53 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:02:53 +0200
Subject: Linguistic oddities / OT
References: <8onbq6+n2t7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c015e1$f24050a0$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 892

>
> The difference between nouns and verbs is an arbitrary artifact of
> Indo-European languages. It doesn't exist as such in Semitic
> languages, and in fact it is a little weak in English: is 'wave' a
> noun or a verb? How about 'smile'? How about 'interface'?

Come again?  I only know classical Hebrew & Aramaic.  (Or put honestly, I've
only forgotten classical Hebrew & Aramaic... )  But I have very vivid
memories of learning to do very weird things with both verbs and nouns.  Or
has my memory so badly deteriorated that I'm remembering things I never
learned?

Could it be that goats turn senile at 28 ... ?

Oink! Oink!

Aberforth's, Aberforth's ... um ... um  (a.k.a. Mark Smith)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Sep  3 19:37:04 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:37:04 -0400
Subject: Fanfic cliches
Message-ID: <200009031941.e83JfMv17900@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 893

I just realized that I forgot to add one of the most obvious to the list: 
Colin Creevey grows up to become a photographer for the Daily Prophet

Kathy




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 19:41:27 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:41:27 -0000
Subject: Fanfic
In-Reply-To: <000c01c015d9$51a49140$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ou9h7+5qsd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 894

Hello:

*sheepishly raises hand*

I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet story.  
Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self upside 
head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!

Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst fics 
possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, Blaise, 
Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
morrigan, and many others.

One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra Claire-
- I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most dramatic, 
and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of genius.

If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling through 
my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  ^_^

*
--Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

"Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
*


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
> 
> Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only one 
so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
version, and something about people in closets that was too confusing.
> 
> :@
> Dee
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 20:11:04 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:11:04 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation guide online
References: <8ondia+mbh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c015e3$17e95120$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 895

> >...so his name means either 'Flight from Death' or 'Flight of Death'
>
> with some hint of also meaning 'theft of death'. A famous pun on the
> French word 'vol' was when Napoleon confiscated the estates of
> surviving nobles of the pre-Revolutionary regime. One of the
> guys whose estate was confiscated said: "C'est le premier vol de
> l'aigle', which normally means 'it is the first flight of the
> eagle' but in this case 'vol' was to be understood as 'theft'.

I don't know any French at all, so pardon the fool--but I had always assumed
the "Vol" in Voldy was connected to some form of the latinate volo (to wish)
instead of volo (to fly).  Thus wish of death, or something of that ilk.
Voldemort = Death wish.  Sounds rather nice, what?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From MsGail61 at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 20:00:00 2000
From: MsGail61 at aol.com (MsGail61 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:00:00 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 39
Message-ID: <9.a2c2122.26e407c0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 896

In a message dated 9/3/2000 3:06:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
HPforGrownups at egroups.com writes:

<< Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  >>

There's a long but beautiful one posted yesterday about how Lily and James 
fell in love in their seventh year of Hogwarts.



From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 20:00:55 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:00:55 -0000
Subject: Evil Parallels
Message-ID: <8oualn+t1i5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 897

Hello:

I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but when I 
was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 50's 
("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my brain 
jarred.

Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following based on 
promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those who join 
his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards those who 
aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and Muggle-
borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the popularity 
of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the evil 
mastermind behind the concentration camps.

Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and non-fictional, 
or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?

Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be all that 
surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are probably 
better educated than I am in the area of history) think?

Just my two Knuts--

*
--Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

"Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
*






From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 20:17:02 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:17:02 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty
In-Reply-To: <8ou1ic+cka1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oubju+mfpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 898

But since we don't have to worry about bandwidth isn't nice to be
able 
to complement someone onsome really good thoughts.  It's something I 
consider very,very important.  Jim




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote 
> replying to 
> tbat Jim Hohman wrote:
> > 
> > Peg loved your long piece on loyalty. >.....
> 
> as follows
> 
> > Thanks!  Glad you enjoyed it.  (There hadn't been many responses,
> and I was
> > just thinking, boy, I put that out there, and it really fell with 
a
> thud.)
> 
> Yeah, but those of us who grew up on Usenet know that it is 
generally 
> considered  waste of bandwidth to post simple "You're right" or "I 
> agree'" messages, if we don't have something else constructive to
> add.  
> So there are probably a lot of people like me who nodded 
thoughtfully 
> at that and went on.
> 
> -Brooks




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Sep  3 20:29:06 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:29:06 -0000
Subject: Mystified
In-Reply-To: <39B27CBB.ADC223EB@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8oucai+2oun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 899

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> >
> > >But if you're writing a MWPP fanfiction . . .
> 
> Ok, I've waited, trying to figure it out, but I finally have to 
ask.  What does the acronym MWPP stand for?  (And I'm sure I'll feel 
pretty stupid when someone takes pity and explains it to me.)
> 
> Peg

I started laughing when I read your post, Peg.  I was minutes away 
from writing the same one myself.  I thought I would eventually 
figure it out myself, too, but it didn't happen.  "Marauder World Pre-
Potter"?  no... "Marauders, Wizards, Prefects and Poltergeists"?  
no...  "Mysterious World (of) Percy and Penelope"?  aaargh...

Thanks for demystifying things for us guys.  My brain was starting to 
cramp.

Kelley    




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 20:33:12 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:33:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Durmstrang (was: Focaccia and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <75.92cd5bb.26e40f88@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 900

In a message dated 9/3/2000 12:16:52 PM CST, catlady at wicca.net writes:

<< I believe that the locations of the greatest wizarding schools is 
 less related to the current location of Muggle national borders than 
 to the location of said Muggle borders 1000 years ago when the 
 schools were founded. Okay, I really am thinking less than 1000 
 years when I suggest Beauxbatons as the school of the Bourbon 
 Empire (and Mme. Maxime telling Dumbledore that her giant flying 
 horses only drink single-malt whisky is a pun on Bourbon whisky) 
 and Durmstrang as the school of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. 
 
  >>

JKR seems to have numerous historical themes running through her books!  
During my last round of re-reading I concentrated on picking out references 
to the wars of the roses! <g>  Thanks for alerting me to this theme!

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*



From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 20:34:06 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:34:06 -0000
Subject: Durmstrang (was: Focaccia and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <8ou7rg+9o6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oucju+pvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 901

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Durmstrang can't be in Bulgaria and can't even be in the southern 
> > half of Norway, according to Tigerlily from Norway who was in one
> of 
> > these e-mail-lists and said that the shortness of daylight of 
> > Durmstrang as described by Krum was further north than where she 
> > lives in Norway.
> 
> 
> Actually i don't think that is a clear disproval.  Someone who grew
> up 
> in southern Norway would think the night lengths in winter she was
> used 
> to, were perfectly normal.  But someone who grew up in Bulgaria 
would 
> think that even southern Norway's winter nights were depressingly
> long.
> Bulgaria is about the same latitude as New York City, but Southern 
> Norway is at the same latitude as the southern Alaska or the middle
> of 
> Hudson's Bay or the south tip of Greenland.
> 
> -Brooks

Add my voice to Brooks.  I have a good friend who grew up in 
Copenhagen, Denmark.  She always talked about going to grammer school 
in the dark and coming home in the dark.  It didn't get light until 
ten in the moarning and got dark again at three in the afternoon.  
That isn't much daylight IMHO.   As is, I find the short days in the 
middle of winter here in the outskirts of NYC very depressing.  

Jim  




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 20:39:10 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:39:10 -0000
Subject: Latin Noises & Remus' Name
In-Reply-To: <00a301c015de$9d214460$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8oucte+83o9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 902

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> > Of course Lupin's name is derived from latin, but I'm confused w/ 
the
> > pronunction of Remus - is it RAY-mus or REE-mus ?
> 
> I'm three days late on this, but just wanted to add my salt: as a 
kid in
> Italy, I was taught  learned to pronounce that kind of "e" the same 
as a
> modern Italian "e."  To wit, a bit longer than the "e" in egg but a 
bit
> shorter than the "ay" above.    Hence, more of a RAY-mus.  To get 
"REE-mus"
> you would have had to write "Rimus."
> 
> Caveat Lector: But that's just applying modern Italian
prononciation 
to
> Latin, which proves nothing.  As far as I know, no one really knows 
how
> those old guys talked.
> 
> Caveat Mike: My old Latin teacher would have me dragged in a spiked 
barrel
> behind a bounding chariot for saying that.
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat

I could have a discussion about Latin pronunciation (in a word I 
believe there has been undo influence by German scholars)

BUT. . . I think in English usage Remus is pronounced REE-mus.  
Remember the Uncle Remus stories which my southern mother tells to
her 
grandchildren still.  Have you ever seen the old Disney movie' Song
of 
the South'???

Jim




From andy.scott666 at ntlworld.com  Sun Sep  3 20:46:24 2000
From: andy.scott666 at ntlworld.com (Andy Scott)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:46:24 +0100
Subject: Hi 
Message-ID: <090201c015e8$070f19c0$ec68fc3e@andy>

No: HPFGUIDX 903

Im not right sure how all this works yet.
Ive joined here through a psot in Harry Potter website.
I recently discoverd Harry Potter in the last few months and have now read all the book.
-------
Andy Scott
I laugh in the face of danger! 
Then I hide till it goes away
ICQ number 74624471



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jickndim at garden.net  Sun Sep  3 20:49:55 2000
From: jickndim at garden.net (Jim Hohman)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:49:55 -0000
Subject: Evil Parallels
In-Reply-To: <8oualn+t1i5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8oudhj+ck4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 904

I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the Rings" 
tetrology was a reference to WWII.   

Jim


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" 
<AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but when I 
> was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 50's 
> ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my brain 
> jarred.
> 
> Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following based 
on 
> promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those who
join 
> his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards those who 
> aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and Muggle-
> borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the 
popularity 
> of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the evil 
> mastermind behind the concentration camps.
> 
> Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
non-fictional, 
> or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
> 
> Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be all 
that 
> surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are 
probably 
> better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
> 
> Just my two Knuts--
> 
> *
> --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
> 
> "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
> Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
> 
> Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
> Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
> Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
> *




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 21:26:18 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:26:18 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Warners Warning to those with Websites
References: <005b01c01453$01fbe3a0$11987ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00e801c015ed$9a5ea420$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 905

> When I raised this issue with Jo... she was concerned.   She as we know is
> not very aware of the internet - at least, not when it comes to domain
> registration!  Jo (at least in her last letter to me) said that she would
be
> concerned if legitimate fan sites were closed, though she did stress that
> she is concerned about people making and selling copy-cat merchandise
(well
> she would be, she gets royalties from the merchandise I expect).

I sit in awe and wonder.  I'm acually writing an email to someone who
corresponds with JKR.  Can this be true?  Do such people inhabit this earth?
How did you get to know her??

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, and trying not to seem ironic--I
actually felt dizzy reading your post!)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From astrothena at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 21:03:24 2000
From: astrothena at yahoo.com (Belinda Susan Rodrigues)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000903210324.5407.qmail@web214.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 906

Emerging out of lurkdom to make a few comments...

So far, we've seen that the most loyal Death Eaters
have been the Lestranges, the married couple that's
being held in Azkaban. They're the only ones that have
gone to Azkaban rather than deny their involvement
with Voldemort. I suspect (althought JKR might prove
me wrong in a later book) that the Lestranges were
part of the group along with Crouch Jr. that tortured
the Longbottoms and plotted to restore Voldemort. Read
that scene in the Pensieve again. At the trial, one of
the defendents, a woman, starts shouting that
Voldemort will return and they will wait in Azkanban
until he returns for his faithful followers. I'm
willing to bet that's Mrs. Lestrange right there and
that we'll see her again.

Also, some small fact that bothers me is what happened
to Marauder's Map at the end of Book 4? Harry loans it
to Crouch-posing-as-Moody. At the end when Moody is
revealed to be an imposter, he mentions the map in his
confession witnessed by Dumbledore, Snape, McGonnagal
and Harry. In fact, Dumbledore knew nothing of the map
and had to ask what map Crouch was talking about.
After that, there is no mention of the map being
returned to Harry. What happened to it?  

BTW, Peg, are you the same Peg Kerr who wrote The Wild
Swans?

Thena

=====
Quote of the Day from #alt-mmpr: 
<Aneht> what does Pikachu evolve into anyway?
<Mitsou> it evolves into a dust collector in someones 
closet of old fads
More Crazy Quotes at http://www.geocities.com/astrothena/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Sep  3 21:18:55 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:18:55 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <8otsko+hemv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ouf7v+2kq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 907

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> I think I have very similar thoughts about Draco's character 
changing a lot in the next book.  Basically, I think we have seen 
depressingly little indication that Draco will "reform" but I think 
if he is ever going to improve as a person, the turning point will be 
*now*. In my opinion, Lucius might not dare come home at all, for 
fear that Dumbledore will come after him, and without his father's 
influence or protection, Draco is almost definitely going to have to 
clean up his act.  If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well 
known, I doubt Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at 
Hogwarts, especially if people make the connection between him and 
Cedric's death.  I can even foresee people openly hating and/or 
harrassing Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and any other children of Death 
Eaters (taste of their own medicine after the whole "mudblood" 
thing), and this, if anything, might teach Draco some humility.
> 
 
You have a point about Lucius about having to be on the lookout for 
Dumble., but my thoughts are that he'll feel Dumble. won't be a match 
for the big V.  I can't see him afraid to come home, at least not in 
book 5, maybe 6, more likely not til 7.  And, if there will ever be a 
situation for Draco to fight on the good side, it will take a 
dramatic event to get him there.  I see the Malfoys like a KKK 
family; the children are raised with the parents despicable beliefs, 
so they learn to believe it too.  They may grow up to learn 
the 'wrongness' of those beliefs and change on their own, or just 
grow up to be adult versions of their parents.  Probably a number of 
Slyth. students are children of DEs, so D, C & G, will have a bit of 
company.  The other students -- Gryf., Huff., Rave. -- may dislike 
them more (the Slyths.), and probably even fear them, but the 
harassing seems more like something the Slyths. would do.  Their big 
hero is on the rise again.  Take that, you sissy Dumble. 
supporters.      

Anyway, just my thoughts...

Kelley




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 21:35:12 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:35:12 -0000
Subject: Hi
In-Reply-To: <5a.a43e670.26e3ffa3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8oug6g+nupt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 908

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> What info isn't accurate? I'll adjust it immediately! 

I don't remember -- I'll go back to your site when Chat is over, take 
notes, and e-mail my findings to you. Maybe I will find that nothing 
is wrong, you having fixed the ones I noticed before.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 21:49:52 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:49:52 -0000
Subject: Linguistic oddities / OT
In-Reply-To: <00c701c015e1$f24050a0$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8ouh20+m2ko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 909

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforth's Goat" wrote:
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:

> Come again?  I only know classical Hebrew & Aramaic.  (Or put 
> honestly, I've only forgotten classical Hebrew & Aramaic... ) 

I am sure you know more Hebrew than I do, and I never learned 
anything of other Semitic languages except when the Hebrew teacher 
gave an example of Arabic to show how much easier Hebrew is.

But I was enough struck by the three-letter stems to remember them. 
The three-letter stem gives rise to words without much caring whether 
those words are nouns or verbs. A very important word is DBR, 
because the only sentence I really know is Ani lo m'dabberit 
ivrit. Ani is the pronoun 'I', also the verb 'I am'. M'dabber(it) 
is the verb 'I speak' but also the noun 'speaker'. In another 
discussion long ago (actually, it was about what 'mujihaddin' means) 
I spoke of the M in front of the three-letter stem as 'reflective' 
(example I think it is Vav Resh Alef that is the root, 'to learn', or 
Torah 'the Teaching' and Moray, 'teacher') and people got on my case 
about a noun can't be reflective. But Moray is 'I teach' (reflective: 
I make learning) as well as 'teacher'.

And Mujihaddin are people who are making jihad. I would translate 
that as 'holy warriors' rather than 'freedom fighters', myself.
   




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Sep  3 21:52:28 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:52:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hi
Message-ID: <f5.26f538e.26e4221c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 910

Thanks! It's a great help.

Ellie

In a message dated Sun, 3 Sep 2000  5:37:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net> writes:


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> What info isn't accurate? I'll adjust it immediately! 

I don't remember -- I'll go back to your site when Chat is over, take 
notes, and e-mail my findings to you. Maybe I will find that nothing 
is wrong, you having fixed the ones I noticed before.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  3 21:53:42 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:53:42 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 39
In-Reply-To: <9.a2c2122.26e407c0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ouh96+lv8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 911

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, MsGail61 at a... wrote:

> There's a long but beautiful one posted yesterday about how Lily 
> and James fell in love in their seventh year of Hogwarts.

Please do me a favor and mention the title (and author) of the 
good stories you find on ff.net, so I can look them up.




From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Sun Sep  3 21:51:18 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 05:51:18 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hi
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1576214354.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 912

Well, I also understand that the majority looks into the writing styles of a story and also most of the time the characters in the story since they can relate with their experiences and it makes the story more real to them. And I'm not disregarding that factors because they are also important in order give life to the story. But for me, I find the essence of the story much more important then the characters or the style of writing. Since, a good plot itself has everything on it, the characters are carefully placed and written for a specific purpose with their own specific tasks and the style of writing greatly depends on the author's view or perspective on how the story should be written. If a story has a bad plot then all the rest of the factors would fall because everything is based on the plot. Don't you think?  


>I understand why people would complain about bad writing styles and 
>out-of-character behaviour, but not why people do complain about lack 
>of plot (story). People watch travelogues on TV, listen to interviews 
>with celebrities, write letters to their friends : all little 
>snapshots of a piece of daily life of someone (or somewhere) 
>interesting rather than a story with a plot.
>
>> In Harry Potter and the SS, Harry and Ron passed a ghost of a tall
>> witch in a corridor while on their way to the room where the Mirror
>> of Erised was located. Could've that been the Grey Lady? Didn't JKR
>> say one time in an interview that Harry had passed by the Grey Lady
>> at one time?
>
>Yes and yes.

 owkie! MUCH DANKE :) Thanks for your reply. I just needed to clarify that. :) Now, back to my lurking :>

-fuelchic- 

"This could be the last time you will stand by my side. But I could feel my soul, its bleeding. Would u fly with me this evening?






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:22 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:22 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Location of Dumstrang (Was: Re: Focaccia and Harry Potter)
References: <11.8b5256a.26e3a6d1@aol.com> <001601c015a8$d5b0d9c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <017201c015f5$93c1db20$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 913

I've just always assumed that Durmstrang is in the northern wastelands of
Russia.  I mean everybody who grew up in the 80's ought to know that tough,
cold & cynical bad-guys almost always come from Russia.  Germany would ahve
the resonances, but it's not cold enough.  (Neil said that too.)

Notice also the presence of a Bulgarian student (Krum) and one other student
with a slavic name: this reinforces the eastern block image.  It seems to me
as though JKR drew up a wizarding parallel to the old east-west stereotypes
(note the French as the arrogant independents!), then pierced it by having
Krum and (presumably) many of his fellow students turn out to be nice kids.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:27 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:27 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pensieve - Just a Thought
References: <8osurg+dogj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017801c015f5$94e6d320$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 914

> because that would take an eliment of humanity out of the
> interactions, the point is not to know the truth about something but
> for you to trust the other person is telling the truth - can you
> think what it would do to power relations if you expected ppl to have
> a truth serium as a job prerequist? No, I think the danger of using
> it universaly is so great that it is one of those things best left
> to 'police' kind of powers.

Well thought.  I think the principle of freedom and dignity gives the most
satisfying answer to questions about all the varieties of magic Dumbledore
could be using to protect Harry and Hogwarts.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat







From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:30 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:30 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP in Egypt (was Greek/Egyptian names (was Hermione pronunciation)
References: <8osd55+61au@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017d01c015f5$96f6c760$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 915

and that gives
> me a terrible fear that he might be working as a grave robber. How
> dishonorable, and inconsiderate of the dead people.

But what if the pyramids aren't graves at all?  Ron mentioned all the weird
things muggle intruders were turned into--could that include the mummies?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:34 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:34 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Musings on loyalty (long)
References: <39B13637.F5681AF1@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <018201c015f5$98f5f2c0$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 916

> Have been thinking about what the books have to say about loyalty. Quite
> a lot, actually.

Thanks for that post Peg.  We talk so much about JKR's magic (and it's an
aweful lot of fun, too!), but the stories aren't really about magic.  If
they were, I wouldn't be writing emails about them.

They're about people.  The force behind JKR's plot isn't the magic; it's
values like loyalty, bravery, friendship and honesty that give the stories
their drive.  The creativity and humor are phenomenal of course, but I don't
think they're at the heart of the way JKR sees the world.

I think that's something relgious right types would realize, if they'd
bother to read the books.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:36 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:36 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK, Ireland and now James Joyce! (still OT)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000902011110.007050f8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <018801c015f5$9abb2260$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 917


> Finnegan's Wake?  Hell on paper. It was written to be avoided.

Off topic, but very consoling.  Good to know I'm not the only at least
semi-literate person out there who doesn't appreciate good litereature.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:23:39 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:23:39 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the books in German
References: <1.5.4.32.20000901191321.007156ac@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <018e01c015f5$9c559880$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 918

http://www.harry-auf-deutsch.de/ is an interesting site.  Some pretty wild
forum action.  But they've already had to drop the downloadable translation
project.  Which I think is a pity.  I know it's illegal, but I'd love to
have compared them to the official translations.

And while I'm being illegal: is there somewhere I could hear a short
*sample* of Stephan Fry reading any one of the HP books?  I just couldn't
take to Jim ??'s reading.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat






From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 22:07:49 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:07:49 -0000
Subject: UK, Ireland and now James Joyce! (still OT)
In-Reply-To: <018801c015f5$9abb2260$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8oui3l+l7fp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 919

Hello:

I remember writing something a while back on the Yahoo! Club about 
how much so-called "Great Literature" can really, really suck.  ^_^  
Glad to see that there are adults out there that feel exactly the 
same way!

*
--Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

"Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
*
 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> 
> > Finnegan's Wake?  Hell on paper. It was written to be avoided.
> 
> Off topic, but very consoling.  Good to know I'm not the only at 
least
> semi-literate person out there who doesn't appreciate good 
litereature.
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep  3 22:23:06 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:23:06 -0500
Subject: Evil Parallels
References: <968017811.17970@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B2CF4A.A93027B7@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 920

Alicia - and other people have remarked on how Fudge suddenly reminds
them of Neville  Chamberlain.

I have reason to think - and write that there is a connection beyond
parallelism between Voldy and Nazi Germany.  More anon.

-Brooks



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep  3 22:31:46 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:31:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
References: <20000903210324.5407.qmail@web214.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39B2D152.7F2CA742@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 921



Belinda Susan Rodrigues wrote:

BTW, Peg, are you the same Peg Kerr who wrote The Wild

> Swans?
>
> Thena

Yes, I am.  I have not been writing much lately.  I spent a year being
obsessed with Jane Austen, and now I'm obsessed with Harry Potter.
Obsession with other people's ficiton puts a cramp in my own writing.  I did
start on a sequel to Emerald House Rising, but although it seemed pretty
good to me, I got stuck on page 65, and so I've abandoned it for the time
being.

I started reading the HP books because my mother-in-law sent a copy of the
first to my daughter for her birthday.  I started studying Rowling
obsessively because she's a fantasy writer, like me, and I like what she has
to say about her creative process.  I listened to an interview in which she
was asked "did you write your books for kids or for adults?" and she replied
"I wrote them for myself.  I wanted to write something that I would enjoy
reading."  I like that answer, and I think it's part of the reason she seems
so centered.

I guess I haven't been writing much lately because I have been enjoying
reading . . . other people's fiction.  Plus, The Wild Swans really burned me
out.  As voicelady indicated, it's a pretty emotional book.

Not to mention that I have a full time job and two young kids.  Ack.

I've thought about writing fan fiction, and I'm sure I would enjoy it and
would be pretty good at it, but I think I won't because if I have time and
the urge to write, I'd be better off prioritizing my time professionally by
trying to get my own stuff off the ground.  Somehow.  *Sigh*

I will write again.  Someday.

Peg




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Sun Sep  3 22:43:01 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 3 Sep 2000 22:43:01 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968020981.14981@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 922


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Chatscripts/9-3-00 only half due to being kicked out of cheeta 
  Uploaded by : gypsycaine at yahoo.com 
  Description : I am sorry folks.  That's what I get for dling off Nick using CC file transfer! 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Chatscripts/9-3-00+only+half+due+to+being+kicked+out+of+cheeta 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

gypsycaine at yahoo.com
 






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:39:50 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:39:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups 
References: <968005103.641@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c015f7$dfbbb4e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 923

Don't know?  Is that an option?  I haven't been employed yet, so I am available many days, but when I am this will change... LOL    
Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 2:18 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups 



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  



  Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
  group:


  For those of you who can't make the 
  Sunday chat (or just want to chat twice 
  a week), what day(s) would be best for 
  you for a second weekly chat? 

    o Monday 
    o Tuesday 
    o Wednesday 
    o Thursday 
    o Friday 
    o Satuday 


  To vote, please visit the following web page:

  http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

  Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
  not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
  web site listed above.

  Thanks!






  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:41:44 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:41:44 -0400
Subject: Rita, about the Heathcliff/Sirius plot..
References: <8ou52t+ffil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c015f8$2334a7e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 924

You had better write, and post that and soon!  It sounded just sooo good!  Grins.

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:46:15 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:46:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic
References: <8ou9h7+5qsd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c015f8$c529d660$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 925

My god, Sue, does that mean you wrote the one about the poodle and Draco as well?


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:41 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hello:

  *sheepishly raises hand*

  I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet story.  
  Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self upside 
  head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!

  Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst fics 
  possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
  cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
  enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, Blaise, 
  Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
  morrigan, and many others.

  One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra Claire-
  - I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most dramatic, 
  and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of genius.

  If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling through 
  my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  ^_^

  *
  --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

  "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
  Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

  Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  *


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
  Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
  > 
  > Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only one 
  so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
  version, and something about people in closets that was too confusing.
  > 
  > :@
  > Dee
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  3 22:54:18 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:54:18 -0000
Subject: Fanfic
In-Reply-To: <005f01c015f8$c529d660$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 926

Hello:

Draco and a poodle... no, can't say I have, maybe I should keep that 
in mind.  ^_^

But there's one in my Word file that's about Draco falling for a 
dementor...

I did write a fic with "Storage Closets" in the title, though.

BTW, my stuff's under Alicia Spinnet on ff.n, just so you don't get 
confused.  ^_^

*
--Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

"Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
*




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> My god, Sue, does that mean you wrote the one about the poodle and 
Draco as well?
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:41 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic
> 
> 
> 
>        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
> 
> 
>   Hello:
> 
>   *sheepishly raises hand*
> 
>   I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet 
story.  
>   Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self 
upside 
>   head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!
> 
>   Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst 
fics 
>   possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
>   cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
>   enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, 
Blaise, 
>   Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
>   morrigan, and many others.
> 
>   One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra 
Claire-
>   - I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most 
dramatic, 
>   and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of 
genius.
> 
>   If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling 
through 
>   my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  
^_^
> 
>   *
>   --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
> 
>   "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
get?" --
>   Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
> 
>   Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
>   Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
>   Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
>   *
> 
> 
>   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
>   > OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
>   Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
>   > 
>   > Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only 
one 
>   so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
>   version, and something about people in closets that was too 
confusing.
>   > 
>   > :@
>   > Dee
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 22:58:30 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:58:30 -0400
Subject: Opinion of People if you wouldn't mind?  RPG subject...
References: <005b01c01453$01fbe3a0$11987ed4@oemcomputer> <00e801c015ed$9a5ea420$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <00b401c015fa$7b7d7240$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 927

This was posted in one of my RPG clubs.  Does it sound familiar, or am I nuts?

      New Tremere in Town  _Gaelic_Goddess_
      (130/F/Tremere Antitribu)  9/3/00 5:25 pm 
      Upon arriving in Omega City, Tamara Malvoro Riddle, a young tenth generation Tremere sets up a mystic's circle in her Haven and performs the Rite of Introduction, communicating telepathically with all the city's Tremere Inhabitants:

      "My name is Tamara, and I look forward to meeting all of you and working with you very closely in our pursuit of magical knowledge. I am an ardent follower of Meerlinda, from whose blood came my sire and her sire before her and so on. I have studied in Latvia, and New York, where I gained some notoriety for creating my own Path of Blood Magic. Again, I look forward to meeting you all, and hope to be contacted soon by my knowledgeable Regent."

      Following the Rite of Introduction, TMR leaves her Haven to present herself to the Prince....

      [OOC: For specs on TMR, out of character knowledge mainly, but some physical knowledge, go to www.geocities.com/flaming_queen . Her character sheet can be found there.]  




:)
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:06:39 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:06:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic Draco and the Poodle
References: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011701c015fb$9ea28700$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 928

Here's the link  (Rated R!)
http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=12612
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hello:

  Draco and a poodle... no, can't say I have, maybe I should keep that 
  in mind.  ^_^

  But there's one in my Word file that's about Draco falling for a 
  dementor...

  I did write a fic with "Storage Closets" in the title, though.

  BTW, my stuff's under Alicia Spinnet on ff.n, just so you don't get 
  confused.  ^_^

  *
  --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

  "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
  Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

  Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  *




  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > My god, Sue, does that mean you wrote the one about the poodle and 
  Draco as well?
  > 
  > 
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:41 PM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
  > 
  > 
  >   Hello:
  > 
  >   *sheepishly raises hand*
  > 
  >   I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet 
  story.  
  >   Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self 
  upside 
  >   head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!
  > 
  >   Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst 
  fics 
  >   possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
  >   cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
  >   enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, 
  Blaise, 
  >   Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
  >   morrigan, and many others.
  > 
  >   One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra 
  Claire-
  >   - I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most 
  dramatic, 
  >   and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of 
  genius.
  > 
  >   If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling 
  through 
  >   my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  
  ^_^
  > 
  >   *
  >   --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  > 
  >   "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
  get?" --
  >   Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  > 
  >   Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  >   Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  >   Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  >   *
  > 
  > 
  >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> 
  wrote:
  >   > OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
  >   Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
  >   > 
  >   > Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only 
  one 
  >   so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
  >   version, and something about people in closets that was too 
  confusing.
  >   > 
  >   > :@
  >   > Dee
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:09:17 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:09:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic HP meets Brittany Spears
References: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011f01c015fb$fcb0e580$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 929

And here's that link:  (Warning, don't read if you are asthmatic, you might have problems breathing--you're laughing so hard!)

http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=16369
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hello:

  Draco and a poodle... no, can't say I have, maybe I should keep that 
  in mind.  ^_^

  But there's one in my Word file that's about Draco falling for a 
  dementor...

  I did write a fic with "Storage Closets" in the title, though.

  BTW, my stuff's under Alicia Spinnet on ff.n, just so you don't get 
  confused.  ^_^

  *
  --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

  "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
  Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

  Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  *




  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > My god, Sue, does that mean you wrote the one about the poodle and 
  Draco as well?
  > 
  > 
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:41 PM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
  > 
  > 
  >   Hello:
  > 
  >   *sheepishly raises hand*
  > 
  >   I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet 
  story.  
  >   Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self 
  upside 
  >   head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!
  > 
  >   Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst 
  fics 
  >   possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
  >   cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
  >   enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, 
  Blaise, 
  >   Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
  >   morrigan, and many others.
  > 
  >   One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra 
  Claire-
  >   - I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most 
  dramatic, 
  >   and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of 
  genius.
  > 
  >   If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling 
  through 
  >   my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  
  ^_^
  > 
  >   *
  >   --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  > 
  >   "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
  get?" --
  >   Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  > 
  >   Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  >   Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  >   Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  >   *
  > 
  > 
  >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> 
  wrote:
  >   > OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
  >   Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
  >   > 
  >   > Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only 
  one 
  >   so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
  >   version, and something about people in closets that was too 
  confusing.
  >   > 
  >   > :@
  >   > Dee
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:11:37 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:11:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic  Closets
References: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012701c015fc$50233380$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 930

And here's the closet.  Warning, this is extremely graphic hence the rating R.  But it is odd.

And Sue, I didn't think you wrote this stuff!  Grins.

http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=58745
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hello:

  Draco and a poodle... no, can't say I have, maybe I should keep that 
  in mind.  ^_^

  But there's one in my Word file that's about Draco falling for a 
  dementor...

  I did write a fic with "Storage Closets" in the title, though.

  BTW, my stuff's under Alicia Spinnet on ff.n, just so you don't get 
  confused.  ^_^

  *
  --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet

  "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't get?" --
  Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"

  Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  *




  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > My god, Sue, does that mean you wrote the one about the poodle and 
  Draco as well?
  > 
  > 
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:41 PM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
  > 
  > 
  >   Hello:
  > 
  >   *sheepishly raises hand*
  > 
  >   I'm afraid I'm the author of that terribly confusing closet 
  story.  
  >   Dammit, I *had* to go and write that, didn't I?  *smacks self 
  upside 
  >   head*  Time for an actual plot, Suze!
  > 
  >   Actually, most of my ff.n amusement involves finding the worst 
  fics 
  >   possible and MiSTing them in my mind.  Or in MS Word, but I'm not 
  >   cruel enough to actually post those.  ^_^  But, if you dig far 
  >   enough, you can find some excellent material by WolfieTwins, 
  Blaise, 
  >   Hyphen, Moon, CLS, Katie Bell, masoumi, Meritre, Princess Kate, 
  >   morrigan, and many others.
  > 
  >   One I *definitely* recommend is "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra 
  Claire-
  >   - I swear to God, this is one of the most humorous, most 
  dramatic, 
  >   and most poignant fics up there, and C.C. must be some sort of 
  genius.
  > 
  >   If you fall into a serious pit of ennui, you can try muddling 
  through 
  >   my sorry attempts at fanfic-- but don't say I didn't warn you.  
  ^_^
  > 
  >   *
  >   --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  > 
  >   "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
  get?" --
  >   Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  > 
  >   Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  >   Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  >   Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  >   *
  > 
  > 
  >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> 
  wrote:
  >   > OMG!  I am still rolling on the floor about Harry Potter meets 
  >   Brittany Spears!  That is one horrid ff; I loved it!
  >   > 
  >   > Are all these as bad, or is there a good one in here?  The only 
  one 
  >   so far I have run across is PoU, and a "choose your adventure" 
  >   version, and something about people in closets that was too 
  confusing.
  >   > 
  >   > :@
  >   > Dee
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:14:09 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:14:09 -0400
Subject: Fanfic 
References: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com> <011f01c015fb$fcb0e580$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <013301c015fc$aa7f8680$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 931

This one was good!  It's called the first time, and is under the R rating.

http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=35523

Grins, wickedly, having read the whole thing through...
Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  3 23:19:49 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:19:49 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic (No URLS here, promise.)
References: <8oukqq+s6na@eGroups.com> <011f01c015fb$fcb0e580$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com> <013301c015fc$aa7f8680$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <016901c015fd$75f6ed80$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 932

I hope folks don't mind me posting those.  Some of those are just hilarious!  If you are interested in a certain rating, like G, only fanfic, don't forget to arrange the sorting "via censor" on the bar.  Of course, I had to see the horrible examples of R!  Grins.

Dee


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 7:14 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic 



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  This one was good!  It's called the first time, and is under the R rating.

  http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=35523

  Grins, wickedly, having read the whole thing through...
  Dee


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep  4 00:11:56 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:11:56 -0500
Subject: Just for fun: Expecto Patronum
Message-ID: <39B2E8CC.935AB410@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 933

A nice piece of artwork (not mine) entitled: "Expecto Patronum."

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/e/a/eagle/expecto_patronum.jpg.html

Peg




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 00:54:32 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 00:54:32 -0000
Subject: Evil Parallels
In-Reply-To: <8oudhj+ck4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ours8+f182@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 934

As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I 
apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy, not 
a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of the 
series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" should 
really be considered one long work divided into three volumes, but 
still separate from The Hobbit.
More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a 
fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions of 
people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think 
Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started writing 
LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even then 
of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a* war 
doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed him 
more than people who continued to insist otherwise.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
> I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the 
Rings" 
> tetrology was a reference to WWII.   
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" 
> <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
> > Hello:
> > 
> > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but when 
I 
> > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 50's 
> > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my 
brain 
> > jarred.
> > 
> > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following 
based 
> on 
> > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those who
> join 
> > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards those 
who 
> > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and Muggle-
> > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the 
> popularity 
> > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the evil 
> > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
> > 
> > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
> non-fictional, 
> > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
> > 
> > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be all 
> that 
> > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are 
> probably 
> > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
> > 
> > Just my two Knuts--
> > 
> > *
> > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
> > 
> > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
get?" --
> > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
> > 
> > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
> > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
> > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
> > *




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 00:57:16 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:57:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
References: <8ours8+f182@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01f201c0160b$18a212a0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 935

Now, one good example of a "pic" of WW2 is the movie WIZARDS, and I am not spelling Ralph's last name--same man who did the Hobbit--for fear of murdering it terribly.  I have his COOL WORLD, but am still hoping to grab up a copy of his WIZARDS.  It's a rather interesting rental, if you locate it.  I can see similarities between Dumbledore and the lead good wizard (ack, I NEED THAT COPY!  I can recall Eleanor (prolly due to the lack of clothing) but A~~~ is all I grab from my head for the wizard.  And of course "Fritz!  They killed Fritz!" years before anyone had even dreamt of the certain show on the Comedy Central for adults only on Wed at 10...  Yes, I know the name, but the show has degraded to the fact that only one decent part remains, Salty Chocolate Balls!)

I also have the RPG series created that is based on the Movie.  It's an interesting read, trust me!

;D
Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Bates 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I 
  apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy, not 
  a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of the 
  series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" should 
  really be considered one long work divided into three volumes, but 
  still separate from The Hobbit.
  More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a 
  fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions of 
  people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think 
  Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started writing 
  LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even then 
  of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a* war 
  doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed him 
  more than people who continued to insist otherwise.

  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> wrote:
  > I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the 
  Rings" 
  > tetrology was a reference to WWII.   
  > 
  > Jim
  > 
  > 
  > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" 
  > <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
  > > Hello:
  > > 
  > > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but when 
  I 
  > > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 50's 
  > > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my 
  brain 
  > > jarred.
  > > 
  > > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following 
  based 
  > on 
  > > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those who
  > join 
  > > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards those 
  who 
  > > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and Muggle-
  > > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the 
  > popularity 
  > > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the evil 
  > > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
  > > 
  > > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
  > non-fictional, 
  > > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
  > > 
  > > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be all 
  > that 
  > > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are 
  > probably 
  > > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
  > > 
  > > Just my two Knuts--
  > > 
  > > *
  > > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  > > 
  > > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
  get?" --
  > > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  > > 
  > > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  > > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  > > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  > > *


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 01:01:39 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 01:01:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <8ouf7v+2kq6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ous9j+7eq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 936

I agree that Lucius probably believes Voldy is more than a match for 
Dumbly.  But Voldy is not stupid--he will want to put off an overt 
fight with Dumbly until he can consolidate his power and allies.  So 
I expect he'll do something like order his Death Eaters to lie low 
and avoid a confontation with Dumbly.  And there's a good chance that 
will mean staying away from home for anyone who has a kid in Hogwarts-
-Dumbly will know where they live.  On the other hand, I wonder if 
Lucius and the other Death EaterpParents might take their kids out of 
Hogwarts entirely--perhaps to let Voldy take over their training?

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
> wrote:
> > I think I have very similar thoughts about Draco's character 
> changing a lot in the next book.  Basically, I think we have seen 
> depressingly little indication that Draco will "reform" but I think 
> if he is ever going to improve as a person, the turning point will 
be 
> *now*. In my opinion, Lucius might not dare come home at all, for 
> fear that Dumbledore will come after him, and without his father's 
> influence or protection, Draco is almost definitely going to have 
to 
> clean up his act.  If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well 
> known, I doubt Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at 
> Hogwarts, especially if people make the connection between him and 
> Cedric's death.  I can even foresee people openly hating and/or 
> harrassing Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and any other children of Death 
> Eaters (taste of their own medicine after the whole "mudblood" 
> thing), and this, if anything, might teach Draco some humility.
> > 
>  
> You have a point about Lucius about having to be on the lookout for 
> Dumble., but my thoughts are that he'll feel Dumble. won't be a 
match 
> for the big V.  I can't see him afraid to come home, at least not 
in 
> book 5, maybe 6, more likely not til 7.  And, if there will ever be 
a 
> situation for Draco to fight on the good side, it will take a 
> dramatic event to get him there.  I see the Malfoys like a KKK 
> family; the children are raised with the parents despicable 
beliefs, 
> so they learn to believe it too.  They may grow up to learn 
> the 'wrongness' of those beliefs and change on their own, or just 
> grow up to be adult versions of their parents.  Probably a number 
of 
> Slyth. students are children of DEs, so D, C & G, will have a bit 
of 
> company.  The other students -- Gryf., Huff., Rave. -- may dislike 
> them more (the Slyths.), and probably even fear them, but the 
> harassing seems more like something the Slyths. would do.  Their 
big 
> hero is on the rise again.  Take that, you sissy Dumble. 
> supporters.      
> 
> Anyway, just my thoughts...
> 
> Kelley




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 01:04:19 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 01:04:19 -0000
Subject: Evil Parallels
In-Reply-To: <01f201c0160b$18a212a0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ousej+usii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 937

Wasn't it Bakshi? Ralph Bakshi?

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Now, one good example of a "pic" of WW2 is the movie WIZARDS, and I 
am not spelling Ralph's last name--same man who did the Hobbit--for 
fear of murdering it terribly.  I have his COOL WORLD, but am still 
hoping to grab up a copy of his WIZARDS.  It's a rather interesting 
rental, if you locate it.  I can see similarities between Dumbledore 
and the lead good wizard (ack, I NEED THAT COPY!  I can recall 
Eleanor (prolly due to the lack of clothing) but A~~~ is all I grab 
from my head for the wizard.  And of course "Fritz!  They killed 
Fritz!" years before anyone had even dreamt of the certain show on 
the Comedy Central for adults only on Wed at 10...  Yes, I know the 
name, but the show has degraded to the fact that only one decent part 
remains, Salty Chocolate Balls!)
> 
> I also have the RPG series created that is based on the Movie.  
It's an interesting read, trust me!
> 
> ;D
> Dee
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Steve Bates 
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:54 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
> 
> 
> 
>        
>        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
> 
> 
>   As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I 
>   apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy, 
not 
>   a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of 
the 
>   series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" 
should 
>   really be considered one long work divided into three volumes, 
but 
>   still separate from The Hobbit.
>   More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a 
>   fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions 
of 
>   people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think 
>   Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started 
writing 
>   LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even 
then 
>   of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a* 
war 
>   doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed 
him 
>   more than people who continued to insist otherwise.
> 
>   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> 
wrote:
>   > I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the 
>   Rings" 
>   > tetrology was a reference to WWII.   
>   > 
>   > Jim
>   > 
>   > 
>   > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" 
>   > <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
>   > > Hello:
>   > > 
>   > > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but 
when 
>   I 
>   > > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 
50's 
>   > > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my 
>   brain 
>   > > jarred.
>   > > 
>   > > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following 
>   based 
>   > on 
>   > > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those 
who
>   > join 
>   > > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards 
those 
>   who 
>   > > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and 
Muggle-
>   > > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the 
>   > popularity 
>   > > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the 
evil 
>   > > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
>   > > 
>   > > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
>   > non-fictional, 
>   > > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
>   > > 
>   > > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be 
all 
>   > that 
>   > > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are 
>   > probably 
>   > > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
>   > > 
>   > > Just my two Knuts--
>   > > 
>   > > *
>   > > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
>   > > 
>   > > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
>   get?" --
>   > > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
>   > > 
>   > > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
>   > > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
>   > > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
>   > > *
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 01:09:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:09:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
References: <8ousej+usii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <020a01c0160c$b97d7740$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 938

Bless you, yes, that's it.  Now all I need is the wizard!
:D
Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Bates 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:04 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Wasn't it Bakshi? Ralph Bakshi?

  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > Now, one good example of a "pic" of WW2 is the movie WIZARDS, and I 
  am not spelling Ralph's last name--same man who did the Hobbit--for 
  fear of murdering it terribly.  I have his COOL WORLD, but am still 
  hoping to grab up a copy of his WIZARDS.  It's a rather interesting 
  rental, if you locate it.  I can see similarities between Dumbledore 
  and the lead good wizard (ack, I NEED THAT COPY!  I can recall 
  Eleanor (prolly due to the lack of clothing) but A~~~ is all I grab 
  from my head for the wizard.  And of course "Fritz!  They killed 
  Fritz!" years before anyone had even dreamt of the certain show on 
  the Comedy Central for adults only on Wed at 10...  Yes, I know the 
  name, but the show has degraded to the fact that only one decent part 
  remains, Salty Chocolate Balls!)
  > 
  > I also have the RPG series created that is based on the Movie.  
  It's an interesting read, trust me!
  > 
  > ;D
  > Dee
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Steve Bates 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:54 PM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >        
  >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
  > 
  > 
  >   As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I 
  >   apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy, 
  not 
  >   a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of 
  the 
  >   series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" 
  should 
  >   really be considered one long work divided into three volumes, 
  but 
  >   still separate from The Hobbit.
  >   More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a 
  >   fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions 
  of 
  >   people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think 
  >   Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started 
  writing 
  >   LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even 
  then 
  >   of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a* 
  war 
  >   doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed 
  him 
  >   more than people who continued to insist otherwise.
  > 
  >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...> 
  wrote:
  >   > I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the 
  >   Rings" 
  >   > tetrology was a reference to WWII.   
  >   > 
  >   > Jim
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet" 
  >   > <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
  >   > > Hello:
  >   > > 
  >   > > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but 
  when 
  >   I 
  >   > > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the 
  50's 
  >   > > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my 
  >   brain 
  >   > > jarred.
  >   > > 
  >   > > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following 
  >   based 
  >   > on 
  >   > > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those 
  who
  >   > join 
  >   > > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards 
  those 
  >   who 
  >   > > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and 
  Muggle-
  >   > > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the 
  >   > popularity 
  >   > > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the 
  evil 
  >   > > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
  >   > > 
  >   > > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
  >   > non-fictional, 
  >   > > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
  >   > > 
  >   > > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be 
  all 
  >   > that 
  >   > > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are 
  >   > probably 
  >   > > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
  >   > > 
  >   > > Just my two Knuts--
  >   > > 
  >   > > *
  >   > > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  >   > > 
  >   > > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't 
  >   get?" --
  >   > > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  >   > > 
  >   > > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  >   > > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  >   > > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  >   > > *
  > 
  > 
  >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 01:10:54 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:10:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
References: <8ous9j+7eq1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021601c0160c$fca27de0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 939

Steve, 
that is an idea.  Any of the Deatheaters (egotistically, of course) are just as capable (ahem) as Dumbledore of teaching the boys and girls the fine arts of the Curses, etc.... poison potions, etc...  I think you get the idea.  They seem very proud.

Dee    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Bates 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:01 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  I agree that Lucius probably believes Voldy is more than a match for 
  Dumbly.  But Voldy is not stupid--he will want to put off an overt 
  fight with Dumbly until he can consolidate his power and allies.  So 
  I expect he'll do something like order his Death Eaters to lie low 
  and avoid a confontation with Dumbly.  And there's a good chance that 
  will mean staying away from home for anyone who has a kid in Hogwarts-
  -Dumbly will know where they live.  On the other hand, I wonder if 
  Lucius and the other Death EaterpParents might take their kids out of 
  Hogwarts entirely--perhaps to let Voldy take over their training?

  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
  > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
  > wrote:
  > > I think I have very similar thoughts about Draco's character 
  > changing a lot in the next book.  Basically, I think we have seen 
  > depressingly little indication that Draco will "reform" but I think 
  > if he is ever going to improve as a person, the turning point will 
  be 
  > *now*. In my opinion, Lucius might not dare come home at all, for 
  > fear that Dumbledore will come after him, and without his father's 
  > influence or protection, Draco is almost definitely going to have 
  to 
  > clean up his act.  If Lucius's support of Voldemort becomes well 
  > known, I doubt Draco is going to be liked or even tolerated at 
  > Hogwarts, especially if people make the connection between him and 
  > Cedric's death.  I can even foresee people openly hating and/or 
  > harrassing Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and any other children of Death 
  > Eaters (taste of their own medicine after the whole "mudblood" 
  > thing), and this, if anything, might teach Draco some humility.
  > > 
  >  
  > You have a point about Lucius about having to be on the lookout for 
  > Dumble., but my thoughts are that he'll feel Dumble. won't be a 
  match 
  > for the big V.  I can't see him afraid to come home, at least not 
  in 
  > book 5, maybe 6, more likely not til 7.  And, if there will ever be 
  a 
  > situation for Draco to fight on the good side, it will take a 
  > dramatic event to get him there.  I see the Malfoys like a KKK 
  > family; the children are raised with the parents despicable 
  beliefs, 
  > so they learn to believe it too.  They may grow up to learn 
  > the 'wrongness' of those beliefs and change on their own, or just 
  > grow up to be adult versions of their parents.  Probably a number 
  of 
  > Slyth. students are children of DEs, so D, C & G, will have a bit 
  of 
  > company.  The other students -- Gryf., Huff., Rave. -- may dislike 
  > them more (the Slyths.), and probably even fear them, but the 
  > harassing seems more like something the Slyths. would do.  Their 
  big 
  > hero is on the rise again.  Take that, you sissy Dumble. 
  > supporters.      
  > 
  > Anyway, just my thoughts...
  > 
  > Kelley


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 02:08:55 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:08:55 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
In-Reply-To: <020a01c0160c$b97d7740$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAECHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 940

Fans gave it 4 stars out of 5, but the reviewers don't like it.  (So what's
new?)

Amazon.com
Far from the masterful treatment that groundbreaking animator Ralph Bakshi
gave the similarly
themed The Lord of the Rings just a year later, Wizards feels amateurish. A
simplistic
distillation of fantasy tropes, the scenario is millions of years after
nuclear war wipes out
civilization. Middle Earth fairies, elves, and magic emerge from the "good
lands," while
dimwitted mutants with poor comic timing emerge from the nuclear wastes. In
the ultimate
confrontation between good and evil, a hippie-ish wizard named Avatar
defends his utopia
against the technological and neo-Nazi revival of his bad-seed twin,
Blackwolf. With volleys of jokes that couldn't hit a barn door, elves with
Brooklyn accents, and the dubious climax that sees the kindly old wizard
using one of the hated machines of war to triumph over evil,
Wizards is one of fantasy animation's least successful examples. --Alan E.
Rapp



-----Original Message-----
From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:09 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels


Bless you, yes, that's it.  Now all I need is the wizard!
:D
Dee
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Bates
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:04 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!


  Wasn't it Bakshi? Ralph Bakshi?

  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > Now, one good example of a "pic" of WW2 is the movie WIZARDS, and I
  am not spelling Ralph's last name--same man who did the Hobbit--for
  fear of murdering it terribly.  I have his COOL WORLD, but am still
  hoping to grab up a copy of his WIZARDS.  It's a rather interesting
  rental, if you locate it.  I can see similarities between Dumbledore
  and the lead good wizard (ack, I NEED THAT COPY!  I can recall
  Eleanor (prolly due to the lack of clothing) but A~~~ is all I grab
  from my head for the wizard.  And of course "Fritz!  They killed
  Fritz!" years before anyone had even dreamt of the certain show on
  the Comedy Central for adults only on Wed at 10...  Yes, I know the
  name, but the show has degraded to the fact that only one decent part
  remains, Salty Chocolate Balls!)
  >
  > I also have the RPG series created that is based on the Movie.
  It's an interesting read, trust me!
  >
  > ;D
  > Dee
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Steve Bates
  >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:54 PM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!
  >
  >
  >   As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I
  >   apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy,
  not
  >   a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of
  the
  >   series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy"
  should
  >   really be considered one long work divided into three volumes,
  but
  >   still separate from The Hobbit.
  >   More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a
  >   fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions
  of
  >   people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think
  >   Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started
  writing
  >   LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even
  then
  >   of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a*
  war
  >   doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed
  him
  >   more than people who continued to insist otherwise.
  >
  >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...>
  wrote:
  >   > I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the
  >   Rings"
  >   > tetrology was a reference to WWII.
  >   >
  >   > Jim
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet"
  >   > <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
  >   > > Hello:
  >   > >
  >   > > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but
  when
  >   I
  >   > > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the
  50's
  >   > > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my
  >   brain
  >   > > jarred.
  >   > >
  >   > > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following
  >   based
  >   > on
  >   > > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those
  who
  >   > join
  >   > > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards
  those
  >   who
  >   > > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and
  Muggle-
  >   > > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the
  >   > popularity
  >   > > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the
  evil
  >   > > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
  >   > >
  >   > > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
  >   > non-fictional,
  >   > > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
  >   > >
  >   > > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be
  all
  >   > that
  >   > > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are
  >   > probably
  >   > > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
  >   > >
  >   > > Just my two Knuts--
  >   > >
  >   > > *
  >   > > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
  >   > >
  >   > > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't
  >   get?" --
  >   > > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
  >   > >
  >   > > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
  >   > > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
  >   > > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
  >   > > *
  >
  >
  >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 02:07:26 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:07:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAECHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <026301c01614$e20e0320$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 941

Thanks. So Amazon is selling it now?  When I checked in last, when thinking about it, it was oop.

Sighs.

Dee    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:08 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Fans gave it 4 stars out of 5, but the reviewers don't like it.  (So what's
  new?)

  Amazon.com
  Far from the masterful treatment that groundbreaking animator Ralph Bakshi
  gave the similarly
  themed The Lord of the Rings just a year later, Wizards feels amateurish. A
  simplistic
  distillation of fantasy tropes, the scenario is millions of years after
  nuclear war wipes out
  civilization. Middle Earth fairies, elves, and magic emerge from the "good
  lands," while
  dimwitted mutants with poor comic timing emerge from the nuclear wastes. In
  the ultimate
  confrontation between good and evil, a hippie-ish wizard named Avatar
  defends his utopia
  against the technological and neo-Nazi revival of his bad-seed twin,
  Blackwolf. With volleys of jokes that couldn't hit a barn door, elves with
  Brooklyn accents, and the dubious climax that sees the kindly old wizard
  using one of the hated machines of war to triumph over evil,
  Wizards is one of fantasy animation's least successful examples. --Alan E.
  Rapp



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 6:09 PM
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels


  Bless you, yes, that's it.  Now all I need is the wizard!
  :D
  Dee
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Steve Bates
    To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
    Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:04 PM
    Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels



         My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!


    Wasn't it Bakshi? Ralph Bakshi?

    --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
    > Now, one good example of a "pic" of WW2 is the movie WIZARDS, and I
    am not spelling Ralph's last name--same man who did the Hobbit--for
    fear of murdering it terribly.  I have his COOL WORLD, but am still
    hoping to grab up a copy of his WIZARDS.  It's a rather interesting
    rental, if you locate it.  I can see similarities between Dumbledore
    and the lead good wizard (ack, I NEED THAT COPY!  I can recall
    Eleanor (prolly due to the lack of clothing) but A~~~ is all I grab
    from my head for the wizard.  And of course "Fritz!  They killed
    Fritz!" years before anyone had even dreamt of the certain show on
    the Comedy Central for adults only on Wed at 10...  Yes, I know the
    name, but the show has degraded to the fact that only one decent part
    remains, Salty Chocolate Balls!)
    >
    > I also have the RPG series created that is based on the Movie.
    It's an interesting read, trust me!
    >
    > ;D
    > Dee
    >   ----- Original Message -----
    >   From: Steve Bates
    >   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
    >   Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:54 PM
    >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Parallels
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!
    >
    >
    >   As a big Lord of the Rings fan I have to correct you here; I
    >   apologize if it seems pedantic.  First of all, LOTR is a trilogy,
    not
    >   a tetralogy.  The Hobbit is a prequel to LOTR and is not part of
    the
    >   series.  If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy"
    should
    >   really be considered one long work divided into three volumes,
    but
    >   still separate from The Hobbit.
    >   More importantly though, Tolkien repeatedly denied that LOTR is a
    >   fantasy version of WWII.  And of course, there have been millions
    of
    >   people who don't believe that at all.  But I really don't think
    >   Tolkien intended to be writing about World War II: he started
    writing
    >   LOTR well before the War started and had a pretty good idea even
    then
    >   of where he was going with it.  Just because he wrote about *a*
    war
    >   doesn't mean he was writing about *that* war.  Nothing annoyed
    him
    >   more than people who continued to insist otherwise.
    >
    >   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jim Hohman" <jickndim at g...>
    wrote:
    >   > I don't know about Harry Potter but certainly the 'Lord of the
    >   Rings"
    >   > tetrology was a reference to WWII.
    >   >
    >   > Jim
    >   >
    >   >
    >   > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alicia/Sue Spinnet"
    >   > <AliciaSpinnet at h...> wrote:
    >   > > Hello:
    >   > >
    >   > > I think I've seen this topic somewhere-- probably here-- but
    when
    >   I
    >   > > was reading the last line of a post on McCarthyism in the
    50's
    >   > > ("...the true Dark Wizards of our times..."), something in my
    >   brain
    >   > > jarred.
    >   > >
    >   > > Voldemort strives for world domination, attracts a following
    >   based
    >   > on
    >   > > promises of wealth and power (and fear on the part of those
    who
    >   > join
    >   > > his ranks), and possesses a disgusting prejudice towards
    those
    >   who
    >   > > aren't pureblooded, going as far to kill half-bloods and
    Muggle-
    >   > > borns.  Adolf Hitler almost took over Europe, built up the
    >   > popularity
    >   > > of the Third Reich through promises and fear, and was the
    evil
    >   > > mastermind behind the concentration camps.
    >   > >
    >   > > Is this merely a comparison between the fictional and
    >   > non-fictional,
    >   > > or a portrayal of evil villains throughout history in general?
    >   > >
    >   > > Knowing J.K.'s propensity for social messages, I wouldn't be
    all
    >   > that
    >   > > surprised if it was the former, but what do you all (who are
    >   > probably
    >   > > better educated than I am in the area of history) think?
    >   > >
    >   > > Just my two Knuts--
    >   > >
    >   > > *
    >   > > --Alicia/Sue "Distressed Panda" Spinnet
    >   > >
    >   > > "Is this something I'll regret?  Why do I want what I can't
    >   get?" --
    >   > > Blink-182, "Wendy Clear"
    >   > >
    >   > > Last Movie Seen: "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"
    >   > > Discman's Spinning: "Pack Up the Cats", Local H
    >   > > Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
    >   > > *
    >
    >
    >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    >   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 02:25:50 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:25:50 -0700
Subject: New Database
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMECHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 942

Hi gang!  I've created a database for Recommended Reading, since we're
always having to re-recommend good books to fill in the long wait between HP
novels.  Just click on the DATABASE link on the left side of our e-groups
home page, or go to http://www.egroups.com/database/HPforGrownups and click
on "Recommended Reading".  Any member of the club can add new records with a
click of the mouse, and the list automatically alphabetizes itself according
to author's name.  I've put in a few of the standard books to get us
started.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 02:23:56 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:23:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Database
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMECHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <027501c01617$312c0040$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 943

Is there a way to add movies to view too?  Grins.  Might as well.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: X - HP for Grownups 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:25 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Database



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Hi gang!  I've created a database for Recommended Reading, since we're
  always having to re-recommend good books to fill in the long wait between HP
  novels.  Just click on the DATABASE link on the left side of our e-groups
  home page, or go to http://www.egroups.com/database/HPforGrownups and click
  on "Recommended Reading".  Any member of the club can add new records with a
  click of the mouse, and the list automatically alphabetizes itself according
  to author's name.  I've put in a few of the standard books to get us
  started.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep  4 03:54:05 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:54:05 -0500
Subject: FF.net Ratings
Message-ID: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 944


The mention of ratings on ff.net brings up something I've been thinking
about lately, to wit, how one should rate one's work.

When I began posting Paradigm of Uncertainty, I rated it R.  It's still
rated R.  The content doesn't really justify this rating.  There's no
explicit sex (I usually cut away, though there has been a bit of feeling-up
recently), no horrible swearing, and the violence isn't very graphic except
perhaps when various people get stabbed.  I didn't rate it R because I
thought it contained objectionable content, I rated it R to communicate
that the story was intended for grownups to read and wasn't really suitable
for 11-year-olds, to whom PG-13 is fair game.

I'm wondering if I should change the rating to PG-13.  I've gotten a few
mildly irate emails from teenagers who think I'm saying they can't handle
this subject material.  Not really the point.

I recently had a bit of a heated email exchange with a young woman who
wanted to join my mailing list, but couldn't because the parental controls
locked her out (the list is indicated to be for grownups).  She wanted me
to subscribe her myself, I refused.  I told her that if her parents didn't
want her reading stuff for adults then it wasn't my place to contradict
them.  While I doubt that anything on the list or in the story would give
them problems, that's not my decision to make.  As an author and a list
administrator, I think it's better to err on the side of caution and rate
the story perhaps more severely than it merits on its face.

Any thoughts on this rating system and its implications?
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From MsGail61 at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 03:03:11 2000
From: MsGail61 at aol.com (MsGail61 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:03:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 41
Message-ID: <56.36b14a.26e46aef@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 945

In a message dated 9/3/2000 9:02:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
HPforGrownups at egroups.com writes:

<< > There's a long but beautiful one posted yesterday about how Lily 
 > and James fell in love in their seventh year of Hogwarts.
 
 Please do me a favor and mention the title (and author) of the 
 good stories you find on ff.net, so I can look them up. >>

It was called "Lily's Story" by Maya.

Gail



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 03:02:32 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:02:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Songs for the Movie
References: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <028901c0161c$9305cc60$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 946

Ok, slam me for this idea.  Listening to my son's Tigger Movie (like I watch them, lol?  Grins, and nods!), I am hearing a beautiful song about Tigger.  To listen http://www.geocities.com/gypsycaine/yourheartwillleadyouhome.MP3  I used it on a webpage but I didn't stop to think.  What about perhaps one pop-style song by Kenny for the HP movie?  Would it be that bad?  I own Return to Pooh Corner, and the sequel that includes Your...Home (which is where I got it from--I uploaded it from the album as a midi), and he covers an awful lot of movie songs (The Last Unicorn, The Muppet Movie, WillyWonka (a mix), and a few others that I know are from movies, but I don't know which).

I am not suggesting Brittany Spears, but with his calmer tones, perhaps he wouldn't be as questionable as say Elton John was when someone else brought him up.

':)
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 03:24:08 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:24:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF.net Ratings
References: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <02a501c0161f$98e33c00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 947

Lori,
are you happy with the Rating you gave your work?  Not if any/everyone else is; are you?  If you feel the subject matter is not up to an eleven years' reading, then yes, you are within your rights to make it R rated.  My own novel has some of your fade-out type scenes, where they are throwing nightgowns, etc. around and getting into bed.  If I put this on the web, I would rate it R (Also for the horror-aspect and the violence, such as that of the Haunting of Hill house horror).  It is an author's view of what her audience should be.  Jo wrote the book(s) for herself, not for children, not for adults (as an audience).  If that's how she wrote them, then we as an audience should not complain when the dark tones move away from the cutesy children ones and onto more adult ones--they are still being wrote (written?) for her!  She makes the call.  (I pray that for Book 5, this is still the fact and not the publishers!)

You make the call as well.  I feel that some of the issues you bring up the pre-teen age (11, etc.. until at least 15-16) might not be ready to face.  It's a personal view, though, as a parent.  Other parents, if they think differently can do exactly as you say--assist their children in obtaining copies/joining the egroup, etc.... Don't change your values just because someone else questions them.  Stand firm for what you believe is right.

Dee    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: summers.65 at osu.edu 
  To: hpforgrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 11:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF.net Ratings



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  



  The mention of ratings on ff.net brings up something I've been thinking
  about lately, to wit, how one should rate one's work.

  When I began posting Paradigm of Uncertainty, I rated it R.  It's still
  rated R.  The content doesn't really justify this rating.  There's no
  explicit sex (I usually cut away, though there has been a bit of feeling-up
  recently), no horrible swearing, and the violence isn't very graphic except
  perhaps when various people get stabbed.  I didn't rate it R because I
  thought it contained objectionable content, I rated it R to communicate
  that the story was intended for grownups to read and wasn't really suitable
  for 11-year-olds, to whom PG-13 is fair game.

  I'm wondering if I should change the rating to PG-13.  I've gotten a few
  mildly irate emails from teenagers who think I'm saying they can't handle
  this subject material.  Not really the point.

  I recently had a bit of a heated email exchange with a young woman who
  wanted to join my mailing list, but couldn't because the parental controls
  locked her out (the list is indicated to be for grownups).  She wanted me
  to subscribe her myself, I refused.  I told her that if her parents didn't
  want her reading stuff for adults then it wasn't my place to contradict
  them.  While I doubt that anything on the list or in the story would give
  them problems, that's not my decision to make.  As an author and a list
  administrator, I think it's better to err on the side of caution and rate
  the story perhaps more severely than it merits on its face.

  Any thoughts on this rating system and its implications?
  Lori


  **********************************************************
  Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

          Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

  Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
  Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
  Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
  ***********************************************************



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep  4 03:50:08 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:50:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF.net Ratings
References: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <39B31BF0.D05BF2B1@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 948

Hi --

summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:

> I didn't rate it R because I thought it contained objectionable
> content, I rated it R to communicate that the story was intended for
> grownups to read and wasn't really suitable for 11-year-olds, to whom
> PG-13 is fair game.
>
> I'm wondering if I should change the rating to PG-13.  I've gotten a
> few
> mildly irate emails from teenagers who think I'm saying they can't
> handle
> this subject material.  Not really the point.

Carole & I are getting the same irate emails from teenagers.  I think
the R rating for PoU is still appropriate for the reasons you've given
-- AND you're explicit about the reasons for the rating in the summary
of each chapter on fanfiction.net.  Even if the content isn't explicitly
"R" material, it *is* written by an adult with an intended audience of
adults.  It's *perfectly* reasonable for you to reinforce that the
intended audience is for adults by putting a "R" rating on the story.

We will be sticking by our R rating (ASA will probably have more
objectionable content than PoU though).  I also think you appropriately
handled the situation with the teenager who couldn't join the list due
to parental controls.  The last thing you want is an irate mother on
your hands (or worse, a litigious mother!).

> As an author and a list administrator, I think it's better to err on
> the side of caution and rate the story perhaps more severely than it
> merits on its face.

I agree completely.  I'm still not entirely convinced that some upcoming
chapters of ASA don't merit the NC-17 rating personally, erring on the
side of conservatism.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 03:41:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:41:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF.net Ratings
References: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]> <39B31BF0.D05BF2B1@hic.net>
Message-ID: <02b901c01622$04c82aa0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 949

<<I'm still not entirely convinced that some upcoming
chapters of ASA don't merit the NC-17 rating personally, erring on the
side of conservatism.>>
Penny,
I didn't see that option in the FF?  Is there a place to "dial" to see if there is NC-17 fic?  I find it fascinating that folks can take a 14 year old, and make him having sex already....  it's a sad thought, though in today's world, but some of the stories are downright remarkable (like that closet,,,,groans!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep  4 05:20:56 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 00:20:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF.net Ratings
Message-ID: <v02140bb7b5d8e17ff39c@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 950

>
><<I'm still not entirely convinced that some upcoming
>chapters of ASA don't merit the NC-17 rating personally, erring on the
>side of conservatism.>>
>Penny,
>I didn't see that option in the FF?  Is there a place to "dial" to see if
>there is NC-17 fic?  I find it fascinating that folks can take a 14 year
>old, and make him having sex already....  it's a sad thought, though in
>today's world, but some of the stories are downright remarkable (like that
>closet,,,,groans!)
>
Well, both Penny/Carole and I have superannuated the characters to age 26
in my case and age 21 in theirs.  No 14 year olds having sex here...though
there are plenty of examples of that on ff.net.  I do allude to Hermione
losing her virginity at age 16, but I don't think that's too out of line.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers

        Reality is for people who can't face drugs.

Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 05:01:49 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 05:01:49 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the Rat, Map
In-Reply-To: <8oaguo+dgv4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ovabt+1qjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 951

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "snuffles " <msmacgoo at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "badgers' kin" <dorband at u...> 
wrote:
> >  
> > > We are told that Percy used to own Scabbers, right?  And Fred 
and  George had the map for ages.  On Lupin's desk, the map revealed 
> > Peter's real name, not Scabbers.  Wouldn't F&G have noticed this 
> > before, and knew something wasn't right?  I really don't think 
> they'd let that mystery go without investigating?
> > > 
> > > Just a thought.
> > > :)
> 
> I think that what they had memorized is all the secret exits to 
> Hogwarts. Maybe they didn;t relaise the significance of Peter, 
after > all there must be 200+ ppl at Hogwarts, + house elves etc so 
maybe  > they didn;t really notice.
> 
> sorry to pour cold water on your they made a better one theory ...


The Maurauder's Map is quite significant, isn't it? I just finished 
rereading the Prisoner of Azkaban, and it was hilarious how the map 
insulted Snape. 

When Dumbledore requires that all students sleep in the hall, he 
creates "hundreds" of purple sleeping bags (I know the # of students 
at Hogwarts has been a source of contention).

But, I want to agree, Fred and George just did not notice "Peter 
Pettigrew" among hundreds of names. The name didn't have the 
significance to them that it did to Lupin, Sirius, etc. 

And it's wild that the Map said that "Barty Crouch" was in Snape's 
office..IT saw through the fake Alastor Moody......can't wait to see 
the real Mad Eye Moony in action........






From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep  4 06:37:54 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 06:37:54 -0000
Subject: Fanfic  Closets
In-Reply-To: <012701c015fc$50233380$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ovg02+mphg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 952

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> And here's the closet.  Warning, this is extremely graphic hence 
> the rating R.  But it is odd.
http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=58745

I read it, and am blushing, and laughing, and ... never mind how else 
I'm reacting, other than wondering how could anyone have found this 
confusing? It's quite clear, not to mention explicit, what is going 
on in it!

And I found the 'poodle' story flawed by a reference to Draco's 
feet as 'rather large'. I am sure he has quite small feet -- 
like one of my boyfriends in high school who wore the same size 
shoes as I did (for me, a female, they are alas not 'quite small'! 
size 7 1/2 W in those days, 8WW now!).




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 06:39:36 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 02:39:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic  Closets
References: <8ovg02+mphg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c0163a$e5e554a0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 953

Perhaps confusing wasn't the proper word, but I have to keep my language to a more PG level, so.... lol.    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 2:37 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanfic Closets



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > And here's the closet.  Warning, this is extremely graphic hence 
  > the rating R.  But it is odd.
  http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=58745

  I read it, and am blushing, and laughing, and ... never mind how else 
  I'm reacting, other than wondering how could anyone have found this 
  confusing? It's quite clear, not to mention explicit, what is going 
  on in it!

  And I found the 'poodle' story flawed by a reference to Draco's 
  feet as 'rather large'. I am sure he has quite small feet -- 
  like one of my boyfriends in high school who wore the same size 
  shoes as I did (for me, a female, they are alas not 'quite small'! 
  size 7 1/2 W in those days, 8WW now!).


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep  4 07:14:10 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 07:14:10 -0000
Subject: Apology!!
Message-ID: <8ovi42+pf3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 954

I owe ELLIMIST an APOLOGY!!! about her site, "What's in a Name" at 
http://www.geocities.com/cornishpixie7/harryp/

I just read all through the definitions from A to Z and didn't find 
any old inaccuracies! (except that I have my doubts about there 
having been a previous giant named Hagrid) She seems to be 
continually updating it! I will re-commence using this site!




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep  4 07:49:38 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 07:49:38 -0000
Subject: Harry's Summer Holidays Post Voldy
In-Reply-To: <8ous9j+7eq1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ovk6i+24pq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 955

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> I agree that Lucius probably believes Voldy is more than a match 
for Dumbly.  But Voldy is not stupid--he will want to put off an overt
> fight with Dumbly until he can consolidate his power and allies. 

Agreed.

> So I expect he'll do something like order his Death Eaters to lie 
low and avoid a confrontation with Dumbly.  And there's a good chance 
that will mean staying away from home for anyone who has a kid in 
Hogwarts--Dumbly will know where they live.  On the other hand, I 
wonder if Lucius and the other Death EaterpParents might take their 
kids out of Hogwarts entirely--perhaps to let Voldy take over their 
training?
> 

Good point, Steve.  I hadn't considered how the Malfoys, and the rest 
of the DEs, would feel now that V is coming back and their kids are 
at a school run by D, leader of the good guys.  I wouldn't expect JKR 
to take the DE kids out of HW, though.  Draco will probably play an 
even bigger part in books to come.

Kelley




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 12:35:09 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:35:09 -0000
Subject: FF.net Ratings
In-Reply-To: <v02140bb6b5d8cc0ae8d9@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8p04tt+tvt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 956

Hello:

Bizarrely enough, I can relate; I write mostly in the PG-13 range on 
ff.n.  However, I wrote a story once, and since there was a 
considerably amount on innuendo and language in it, I slapped the 
good ol' R-rating on it.  

(While it may seem a bit odd that a 15-year-old's writing can surface 
to the R-range, keep in mind that most teens today live in the NC-17 
real world.  I think I'm keeping myself pretty innocent... ^_^)

You wouldn't believe the e-mails and 'reviews' I got telling me that 
the rating was unjustified!  I finally wound up changing a few 
naughty words around and re-rating it PG-13, not to mention changing 
the title.  (I'm sorry, I still like "Salsa, Sex, and Storage 
Closets" better.  *shrugs*)

I figure: if the f-bomb can show up once in a PG-13 movie, I can 
write it once in a PG-13 fic.

Lori, I think you made the right decision with the reader who wanted 
you to subscribe her; in doing that, she was expressly going against 
her parents' wishes.  As one of those weird girls who actually gets 
along with her parents, I can't imagine doing that; it would be 
disrespectful.  It's nice to see that there are people out there who 
are willing to make the right decision, no matter how much it 
irritates us precociously annoying teenagers!  ^_^

*
--Alicia/Sue "Bitch v2.7" Spinnet

"Edible roaches DON'T CRAWL!" --Jay Sherman

Last Movie Seen: "Rocky Horror Picture Show"
Discman's Spinning: "Becoming X", Sneaker Pimps
Current Book: "A Long Fatal Love Chase", Louisa May Alcott
*



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> 
> The mention of ratings on ff.net brings up something I've been 
thinking
> about lately, to wit, how one should rate one's work.
> 
> When I began posting Paradigm of Uncertainty, I rated it R.  It's 
still
> rated R.  The content doesn't really justify this rating.  There's 
no
> explicit sex (I usually cut away, though there has been a bit of 
feeling-up
> recently), no horrible swearing, and the violence isn't very 
graphic except
> perhaps when various people get stabbed.  I didn't rate it R 
because I
> thought it contained objectionable content, I rated it R to 
communicate
> that the story was intended for grownups to read and wasn't really 
suitable
> for 11-year-olds, to whom PG-13 is fair game.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should change the rating to PG-13.  I've gotten 
a few
> mildly irate emails from teenagers who think I'm saying they can't 
handle
> this subject material.  Not really the point.
> 
> I recently had a bit of a heated email exchange with a young woman 
who
> wanted to join my mailing list, but couldn't because the parental 
controls
> locked her out (the list is indicated to be for grownups).  She 
wanted me
> to subscribe her myself, I refused.  I told her that if her parents 
didn't
> want her reading stuff for adults then it wasn't my place to 
contradict
> them.  While I doubt that anything on the list or in the story 
would give
> them problems, that's not my decision to make.  As an author and a 
list
> administrator, I think it's better to err on the side of caution 
and rate
> the story perhaps more severely than it merits on its face.
> 
> Any thoughts on this rating system and its implications?
> Lori
> 
> 
> **********************************************************
> Lori   "Scrambled Eggs Super"  Summers
> 
>         Reality is for people who can't face drugs.
> 
> Last movie seen:  "X-Men" (most excellent)
> Reigning car-CD:  "This Time Around"  Hanson (shaddap, you)
> Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
> ***********************************************************




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep  4 14:19:59 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:19:59 -0500
Subject: Secrets (Long)
Message-ID: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 957

Another long-winded essay-post.

The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their essence,
the unfolding of a
mystery, and what that mystery means to our main character. The seminal
scene which sets  the
series in motion is that fatal night when James and Lily were killed
and, paradoxically,  Harry
thwarted Voldemort. And the central engine of the series is our drive to
find out,  slowly, book by book, what happened that night? What was that
all about? How and why?  As we learn more, we, along with Harry,
discover other mysteries and secrets. Who is Sirius, and what is his
role in all this? What about Peter Pettigrew? Or Snape? As Harry
understands more and more (and we do, too, as his audience), Harry comes
to understand  himself and his relation to others more clearly.  When he
understands all in the 7th book, he  will be fully an adult.

Speaking metaphorically, discovering the truth is, for Harry, in a way,
the drawing of a map depicting his personal world and his relationship
to it. As  he gets more information, the map becomes more accurate
until, presumably, in the 7th book, the map will be close enough to the
truth to carry him into adulthood. Put another way, as  Harry slowly
pierces the layer of mystery and secrets surrounding himself, it's as if
he is chiseling away at the marble surrounding the statue of himself
buried in a stone. When all the  veils are brushed away, he will see
himself, and his relation to the world, the way he truly is.

Now let's look at secrets, as handled by Our Team vs. the Other Team.

Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are
best kept until they are
"ripe," but they must told when the time is right. Significantly, they
must be told by the person
who the secret belongs to. Examples: Dumbledore knows that Harry has
secrets, and  encourages him to open up about them ("is there anything
you'd like to tell me, Harry?  Anything at all?"), but doesn't force
Harry to tell before he is ready. When Harry  inadvertently stumbles
upon Neville's secret, Dumbledore tells him to keep the secret until
Neville is ready to tell it himself.

Hermione does the same for Lupin, concealing that he is a werewolf,
reasoning that it is not  her
secret to tell.

Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. (Incidentally,
the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of Snape's secret,
whatever it is, is one of the most effective arguments to me that Snape
is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the powers of light,  as surly as he
is.)

When events change, Dumbledore will prod people to disclose their
secrets because
circumstances make it necessary--but still, he will give them control by
allowing them to reveal
it themselves. Note, for example, in the hospital wing at the end of
GoF: he says, "It is time for
two of us to recognize each other for what they are." (This is the
key--revealing a secret for
Dumbledore means revealing the true self.) Then he says, "Sirius, if you
could resume your
usual form." He doesn't come out and say, "Snape, that dog is Sirius."
Instead, he lets Sirius
reveal it himself.

All of these revelations serve to reveal progressive layers of truth to
Harry, each layer as he
grows mature enough to handle it, which in turn reveals to him what his
relationships are to
other people. At the end of PoA, he learns that Sirius isn't a murderer,
but his godfather, his
surrogate parent, and he is strengthened and encouraged and more firmly
anchored by learning
the truth.

Now let's look at the Other Team in contrast:

1) members of the Other Team reveal secrets before they are ripe, (and
not their own secrets,
either). They also betray secrets entrusted to them. Exhibit 1: Rita
Skeeter. Exhibit 2:  Wormtail, betraying James and Lily to Voldemort.
Here you see how secrets and how they  are handled (or betrayed) touches
upon issues of loyalty, which I wrote about in one of my  previous
posts.

2) when revealing another person's secret, members of the Other Team
will put as negative  an
interpretation on it as possible. Again, Rita Skeeter is a good example,
putting as much
insinuation as possible into her stories about Hagrid, Hermione and
Harry.  Draco Malfoy is another, who usually worms out what Harry would
like to have remain private and puts as embarrassing an interpretation
on it as possible (e.g., the faintness Harry feels around dementors).

3) conversely, the Other Team keeps secrets PAST the point that they
should be revealed.  Barty Crouch, Sr. is an example, as are the Death
eaters, hiding their loyalty to Voldemort.  Winky and Dobby, too, while
under the Other team's influence, make the mistake of keeping  secrets
that should be told, out of a kind of mistaken loyalty.

4) secrets are used to plot, to trick, to trap, to wriggle out of
consequences for one's own
behavior. Examples: Barty Crouch, Jr., Wormtail, Voldemort, Lucius
Malfoy.   (H, R and Hr offer a contrasting example: they keep the secret
about Hagrid keeping an  illegal dragon. But when caught coming down
from the tower, they do not lie. They simply  accept their punishment
stoically. Malfoy, I think, would have lied.)

Yes, on the other hand, I will admit, Our Team sometimes lies, too,
including Harry.  But, I
think, Harrys attitude about this type of lie is changing, as a result
of his moral education.
Remember, for example, the time Harry was almost caught by Snape when he
snuck out to
Hogsmeade in PoA. He did lie there, and Ron and Lupin covered for him.
Lupin scolded  Harry severely, though, in a way that I'm sure Harry will
never forget. Lupin was telling him  here, "If you're going to keep a
secret, make sure it's a moral secret, one that's worth  keeping.)   We
later discover a whole other ironic layer to this interchange, when
Lupin admits that he has been lying, too, to Dumbledore, by not
revealing that his friends had learned to became animagi, and helped him
escape from the shrieking shack when he was a werewolf.  Note the
interplay of secrets and trust here--Lupin had been afraid to admit his
secret because he couldn't bear to admit how he had violated
Dumbledore's trust.  Note, too, that Lupin himself eventually reveals
this secret when it becomes ripe, i.e., when he has to explain to H, R
and Hr about Sirius role, and why they really REALLY needs to see Rons
rat.

So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping secrets,
discovering secrets,
protecting secrets and betraying secrets teaches Harry about himself,
and teaches all of us  about character and morality.

Afterthought, related: It has been commented by many critics of the
series that Harry is a bad
example, evil, etc., because he lies. That's probably a whole other
post, but I'll just say that  Harry's moral education is being
demonstrated by the way he is learning about how to handle secrets and
how to trust. He has come from a situation  (in the Dursley household)
where he couldn't share anything about himself. Now, he is beginning to
trust and to build true, strong relationships, with teachers
(Dumbledore) parent figures (Sirius and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley) and
friends. He has to figure out as he goes how much to reveal and how much
to keep to himself in all of these relationships, and he finds figuring
out the balancing line rather confusing. See, for example, in the GoF
the interesting bit about his uncertainty about whether he should have
revealed to Sirius that his scar was hurting. He struggles to figure out
who he should entrust with this secret. When he hits upon Sirius as the
best person to confide in, he is relieved--but then he becomes angry at
himself and tries to "take the secret back" (my scar really didn't hurt)
when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously and reacts as a parent would,
by coming north. Learning how to handle secrets properly is a long,
complicated learning process, and a very important part of growing up.

Comments?

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 14:47:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:47:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)
References: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <006601c0167f$17725380$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 958

Comments?

Peg

How about applause?  I now see exactly why the others are going off about your books.  That was one of the best posts I have read, and explains the series very perfectly.  I am going to save this one!

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 10:19 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Another long-winded essay-post.

  The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their essence,
  the unfolding of a
  mystery, and what that mystery means to our main character. The seminal
  scene which sets  the
  series in motion is that fatal night when James and Lily were killed
  and, paradoxically,  Harry
  thwarted Voldemort. And the central engine of the series is our drive to
  find out,  slowly, book by book, what happened that night? What was that
  all about? How and why?  As we learn more, we, along with Harry,
  discover other mysteries and secrets. Who is Sirius, and what is his
  role in all this? What about Peter Pettigrew? Or Snape? As Harry
  understands more and more (and we do, too, as his audience), Harry comes
  to understand  himself and his relation to others more clearly.  When he
  understands all in the 7th book, he  will be fully an adult.

  Speaking metaphorically, discovering the truth is, for Harry, in a way,
  the drawing of a map depicting his personal world and his relationship
  to it. As  he gets more information, the map becomes more accurate
  until, presumably, in the 7th book, the map will be close enough to the
  truth to carry him into adulthood. Put another way, as  Harry slowly
  pierces the layer of mystery and secrets surrounding himself, it's as if
  he is chiseling away at the marble surrounding the statue of himself
  buried in a stone. When all the  veils are brushed away, he will see
  himself, and his relation to the world, the way he truly is.

  Now let's look at secrets, as handled by Our Team vs. the Other Team.

  Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are
  best kept until they are
  "ripe," but they must told when the time is right. Significantly, they
  must be told by the person
  who the secret belongs to. Examples: Dumbledore knows that Harry has
  secrets, and  encourages him to open up about them ("is there anything
  you'd like to tell me, Harry?  Anything at all?"), but doesn't force
  Harry to tell before he is ready. When Harry  inadvertently stumbles
  upon Neville's secret, Dumbledore tells him to keep the secret until
  Neville is ready to tell it himself.

  Hermione does the same for Lupin, concealing that he is a werewolf,
  reasoning that it is not  her
  secret to tell.

  Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. (Incidentally,
  the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of Snape's secret,
  whatever it is, is one of the most effective arguments to me that Snape
  is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the powers of light,  as surly as he
  is.)

  When events change, Dumbledore will prod people to disclose their
  secrets because
  circumstances make it necessary--but still, he will give them control by
  allowing them to reveal
  it themselves. Note, for example, in the hospital wing at the end of
  GoF: he says, "It is time for
  two of us to recognize each other for what they are." (This is the
  key--revealing a secret for
  Dumbledore means revealing the true self.) Then he says, "Sirius, if you
  could resume your
  usual form." He doesn't come out and say, "Snape, that dog is Sirius."
  Instead, he lets Sirius
  reveal it himself.

  All of these revelations serve to reveal progressive layers of truth to
  Harry, each layer as he
  grows mature enough to handle it, which in turn reveals to him what his
  relationships are to
  other people. At the end of PoA, he learns that Sirius isn't a murderer,
  but his godfather, his
  surrogate parent, and he is strengthened and encouraged and more firmly
  anchored by learning
  the truth.

  Now let's look at the Other Team in contrast:

  1) members of the Other Team reveal secrets before they are ripe, (and
  not their own secrets,
  either). They also betray secrets entrusted to them. Exhibit 1: Rita
  Skeeter. Exhibit 2:  Wormtail, betraying James and Lily to Voldemort.
  Here you see how secrets and how they  are handled (or betrayed) touches
  upon issues of loyalty, which I wrote about in one of my  previous
  posts.

  2) when revealing another person's secret, members of the Other Team
  will put as negative  an
  interpretation on it as possible. Again, Rita Skeeter is a good example,
  putting as much
  insinuation as possible into her stories about Hagrid, Hermione and
  Harry.  Draco Malfoy is another, who usually worms out what Harry would
  like to have remain private and puts as embarrassing an interpretation
  on it as possible (e.g., the faintness Harry feels around dementors).

  3) conversely, the Other Team keeps secrets PAST the point that they
  should be revealed.  Barty Crouch, Sr. is an example, as are the Death
  eaters, hiding their loyalty to Voldemort.  Winky and Dobby, too, while
  under the Other team's influence, make the mistake of keeping  secrets
  that should be told, out of a kind of mistaken loyalty.

  4) secrets are used to plot, to trick, to trap, to wriggle out of
  consequences for one's own
  behavior. Examples: Barty Crouch, Jr., Wormtail, Voldemort, Lucius
  Malfoy.   (H, R and Hr offer a contrasting example: they keep the secret
  about Hagrid keeping an  illegal dragon. But when caught coming down
  from the tower, they do not lie. They simply  accept their punishment
  stoically. Malfoy, I think, would have lied.)

  Yes, on the other hand, I will admit, Our Team sometimes lies, too,
  including Harry.  But, I
  think, Harry's attitude about this type of lie is changing, as a result
  of his moral education.
  Remember, for example, the time Harry was almost caught by Snape when he
  snuck out to
  Hogsmeade in PoA. He did lie there, and Ron and Lupin covered for him.
  Lupin scolded  Harry severely, though, in a way that I'm sure Harry will
  never forget. Lupin was telling him  here, "If you're going to keep a
  secret, make sure it's a moral secret, one that's worth  keeping.)   We
  later discover a whole other ironic layer to this interchange, when
  Lupin admits that he has been lying, too, to Dumbledore, by not
  revealing that his friends had learned to became animagi, and helped him
  escape from the shrieking shack when he was a werewolf.  Note the
  interplay of secrets and trust here--Lupin had been afraid to admit his
  secret because he couldn't bear to admit how he had violated
  Dumbledore's trust.  Note, too, that Lupin himself eventually reveals
  this secret when it "becomes ripe," i.e., when he has to explain to H, R
  and Hr about Sirius' role, and why they really REALLY needs to see Ron's
  rat.

  So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping secrets,
  discovering secrets,
  protecting secrets and betraying secrets teaches Harry about himself,
  and teaches all of us  about character and morality.

  Afterthought, related: It has been commented by many critics of the
  series that Harry is a bad
  example, evil, etc., because he lies. That's probably a whole other
  post, but I'll just say that  Harry's moral education is being
  demonstrated by the way he is learning about how to handle secrets and
  how to trust. He has come from a situation  (in the Dursley household)
  where he couldn't share anything about himself. Now, he is beginning to
  trust and to build true, strong relationships, with teachers
  (Dumbledore) parent figures (Sirius and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley) and
  friends. He has to figure out as he goes how much to reveal and how much
  to keep to himself in all of these relationships, and he finds figuring
  out the balancing line rather confusing. See, for example, in the GoF
  the interesting bit about his uncertainty about whether he should have
  revealed to Sirius that his scar was hurting. He struggles to figure out
  who he should entrust with this secret. When he hits upon Sirius as the
  best person to confide in, he is relieved--but then he becomes angry at
  himself and tries to "take the secret back" (my scar really didn't hurt)
  when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously and reacts as a parent would,
  by coming north. Learning how to handle secrets properly is a long,
  complicated learning process, and a very important part of growing up.

  Comments?

  Peg


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 14:55:00 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:55:00 -0400
Subject: What to Read After Harry Potter 
Message-ID: <008b01c01680$197cad00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 959

Monday September 4 8:01 AM ET
What to Read After Harry Potter 

By Ellen Freilich 

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A month after the release of J.K. Rowling's ``Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire,'' any Potter fan worth his salt has finished the 734-page book, an international publishing phenomenon and the fourth volume about the plucky young wizard's apprentice. 

So what can a youthful book-lover read in August? 

Plenty, it turns out. Books about nature and summer itself seem particularly apt for the season. But the key element of a good summer book is for the reader be drawn in so completely that he doesn't want to come up for air until the last page is finished. 

One such tale is Gary Blackwood's ``The Shakespeare Stealer'' (Puffin Books). Set in Elizabethan England, the Shakespeare stealer is a young apprentice, Widge, who is ordered by his master, an angry former member of Shakespeare's acting company, to sneak into the Globe Theater and copy down the words of ''Hamlet'' so it can be performed by his rival acting company. 

In the process of carrying out his master's orders, Widge is drawn into the company of the Globe players, who begin to train him as an actor and treat him as a friend. Widge's predicament of being charged to steal from his newfound friends keeps the reader in suspense while giving us a taste of what it might have been like to work at the Globe with the Bard himself present. 

``Mary, Bloody Mary'' by Carolyn Meyer (Gulliver Books, Harcourt, Brace & Company) is set in a slightly earlier historical period, during the reign of King Henry VIII. Mary ascended to the throne of England six years after her father's death, and after her death she was succeeded by her younger sister, Elizabeth. 

Mary, Mayans And Monday 

History has accorded Mary an unflattering nickname, but this book is most sympathetic to a young girl and woman who was treated by her father, Henry VIII, as nothing more than a high-priced piece of property and a pawn in the king's bitter fight with her mother, Catherine of Aragon. 

A Mayan city in the 9th century provides the setting for Chris Eboch's ``The Well of Sacrifice'' (Clarion Books). Eveningstar Macaw lives in a Mayan city that appears prosperous until its king dies and is succeeded by the High Priest. The priest orders the sacrifice of Eveningstar's beloved brother, along with many other young male nobles. 

Eveningstar's attempt to rescue her brother puts her own life in jeopardy and she must escape the city to save her life and rescue her family. This fast-paced tale, narrated by its heroine, is rich with details of 9th-century Mayan life. 

Eleven-year-old Monday de Groot is the protagonist of Sharon Dennis Wyeth's ``Once on This River'' (Knopf), set in colonial New York. Monday has known nothing of slavery all her life until she leaves the safety of Madagascar and sets sail with her mother for America, where her mother hopes to rescue Monday's uncle, a free man who has been illegally enslaved by a wealthy Dutch family in New York. 

Wyeth repopulates downtown New York with the people who inhabited the city in the mid-1700s, including a community of free blacks who lived there at the same time enslaved Africans were being sold at a place called the Meal Market. 

Pioneers, Settlers And Soldiers 

Joseph Bruchac's ``Sacajawea'' (Silver Whistle/Harcourt Inc.) is set half a century later, in the early 1800s, during the carefully recorded expedition of Lewis and Clark, two explorers who were authorized by President Thomas Jefferson to explore the land from the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean. 

The story is told from alternating points of view -- the diaries of William Clark and the fictionalized voice of a young Shoshone woman, Sacajawea, who at age 16 served as translator, peacemaker, caretaker and guide for Lewis and Clark on their historic explorations. 

In 1870, on the flat, open prairie of America, the two pioneer sisters of Frances Arrington's ``Bluestem'' (Philomel Books) must survive without their parents when, with their father away, their mother falls strangely silent, unable to cope with the loneliness of the prairie and the loss of her baby during the winter. 

Although frightened, 9-year-old Jessie and 11-year-old Polly manage to ward off the intrusions of an unsympathetic neighboring family who would be happy to grab their land, and the girls survive until, at last, their father returns. ''Bluestem'' effectively portrays both the emptiness and the beauty of the prairie. 

In Sara Harrell Banks' ``Abraham's Battle: A Novel of Gettysburg'' (Atheneum Books for Young Readers), Abraham Small, a free black man and the caretaker of a Gettysburg estate, meets Lamar Cooper, a poor, white Confederate soldier who has never known a slave, before the historic battle ensues. 

Their paths cross during the battle, Abraham now a member of a Union ambulance corps and Lamar a critically wounded soldier. It's a juncture that forces Abraham, and the readers of this novel, to discern when people's common humanity supersedes their differences. 

Marisa, a Polish Jew whose blond hair and blue eyes allow her to pass as a Christian, is the heroine of Carol Matas' ``In My Enemy's House'' (Simon & Schuster Books for Young Readers). With her family either scattered or dead, Marisa makes her way to Germany, hoping to survive the war as a Polish worker. There she finds work in the household of a high-ranking Nazi and is befriended by his daughter, all as she hides in plain sight in her enemy's house. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 15:12:32 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:12:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)
Message-ID: <7b.92ba0a8.26e515e6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 960

::applauds:: Wow. Fantastic interpretation. Excellent job, Peg!

Ellie

In a message dated Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:17:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at attglobal.net> writes:


Another long-winded essay-post.

The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their essence,
the unfolding of a
mystery, and what that mystery means to our main character. The seminal
scene which sets  the
series in motion is that fatal night when James and Lily were killed
and, paradoxically,  Harry
thwarted Voldemort. And the central engine of the series is our drive to
find out,  slowly, book by book, what happened that night? What was that
all about? How and why?  As we learn more, we, along with Harry,
discover other mysteries and secrets. Who is Sirius, and what is his
role in all this? What about Peter Pettigrew? Or Snape? As Harry
understands more and more (and we do, too, as his audience), Harry comes
to understand  himself and his relation to others more clearly.  When he
understands all in the 7th book, he  will be fully an adult.

Speaking metaphorically, discovering the truth is, for Harry, in a way,
the drawing of a map depicting his personal world and his relationship
to it. As  he gets more information, the map becomes more accurate
until, presumably, in the 7th book, the map will be close enough to the
truth to carry him into adulthood. Put another way, as  Harry slowly
pierces the layer of mystery and secrets surrounding himself, it's as if
he is chiseling away at the marble surrounding the statue of himself
buried in a stone. When all the  veils are brushed away, he will see
himself, and his relation to the world, the way he truly is.

Now let's look at secrets, as handled by Our Team vs. the Other Team.

Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are
best kept until they are
"ripe," but they must told when the time is right. Significantly, they
must be told by the person
who the secret belongs to. Examples: Dumbledore knows that Harry has
secrets, and  encourages him to open up about them ("is there anything
you'd like to tell me, Harry?  Anything at all?"), but doesn't force
Harry to tell before he is ready. When Harry  inadvertently stumbles
upon Neville's secret, Dumbledore tells him to keep the secret until
Neville is ready to tell it himself.

Hermione does the same for Lupin, concealing that he is a werewolf,
reasoning that it is not  her
secret to tell.

Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. (Incidentally,
the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of Snape's secret,
whatever it is, is one of the most effective arguments to me that Snape
is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the powers of light,  as surly as he
is.)

When events change, Dumbledore will prod people to disclose their
secrets because
circumstances make it necessary--but still, he will give them control by
allowing them to reveal
it themselves. Note, for example, in the hospital wing at the end of
GoF: he says, "It is time for
two of us to recognize each other for what they are." (This is the
key--revealing a secret for
Dumbledore means revealing the true self.) Then he says, "Sirius, if you
could resume your
usual form." He doesn't come out and say, "Snape, that dog is Sirius."
Instead, he lets Sirius
reveal it himself.

All of these revelations serve to reveal progressive layers of truth to
Harry, each layer as he
grows mature enough to handle it, which in turn reveals to him what his
relationships are to
other people. At the end of PoA, he learns that Sirius isn't a murderer,
but his godfather, his
surrogate parent, and he is strengthened and encouraged and more firmly
anchored by learning
the truth.

Now let's look at the Other Team in contrast:

1) members of the Other Team reveal secrets before they are ripe, (and
not their own secrets,
either). They also betray secrets entrusted to them. Exhibit 1: Rita
Skeeter. Exhibit 2:  Wormtail, betraying James and Lily to Voldemort.
Here you see how secrets and how they  are handled (or betrayed) touches
upon issues of loyalty, which I wrote about in one of my  previous
posts.

2) when revealing another person's secret, members of the Other Team
will put as negative  an
interpretation on it as possible. Again, Rita Skeeter is a good example,
putting as much
insinuation as possible into her stories about Hagrid, Hermione and
Harry.  Draco Malfoy is another, who usually worms out what Harry would
like to have remain private and puts as embarrassing an interpretation
on it as possible (e.g., the faintness Harry feels around dementors).

3) conversely, the Other Team keeps secrets PAST the point that they
should be revealed.  Barty Crouch, Sr. is an example, as are the Death
eaters, hiding their loyalty to Voldemort.  Winky and Dobby, too, while
under the Other team's influence, make the mistake of keeping  secrets
that should be told, out of a kind of mistaken loyalty.

4) secrets are used to plot, to trick, to trap, to wriggle out of
consequences for one's own
behavior. Examples: Barty Crouch, Jr., Wormtail, Voldemort, Lucius
Malfoy.   (H, R and Hr offer a contrasting example: they keep the secret
about Hagrid keeping an  illegal dragon. But when caught coming down
from the tower, they do not lie. They simply  accept their punishment
stoically. Malfoy, I think, would have lied.)

Yes, on the other hand, I will admit, Our Team sometimes lies, too,
including Harry.  But, I
think, Harrys attitude about this type of lie is changing, as a result
of his moral education.
Remember, for example, the time Harry was almost caught by Snape when he
snuck out to
Hogsmeade in PoA. He did lie there, and Ron and Lupin covered for him.
Lupin scolded  Harry severely, though, in a way that I'm sure Harry will
never forget. Lupin was telling him  here, "If you're going to keep a
secret, make sure it's a moral secret, one that's worth  keeping.)   We
later discover a whole other ironic layer to this interchange, when
Lupin admits that he has been lying, too, to Dumbledore, by not
revealing that his friends had learned to became animagi, and helped him
escape from the shrieking shack when he was a werewolf.  Note the
interplay of secrets and trust here--Lupin had been afraid to admit his
secret because he couldn't bear to admit how he had violated
Dumbledore's trust.  Note, too, that Lupin himself eventually reveals
this secret when it becomes ripe, i.e., when he has to explain to H, R
and Hr about Sirius role, and why they really REALLY needs to see Rons
rat.

So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping secrets,
discovering secrets,
protecting secrets and betraying secrets teaches Harry about himself,
and teaches all of us  about character and morality.

Afterthought, related: It has been commented by many critics of the
series that Harry is a bad
example, evil, etc., because he lies. That's probably a whole other
post, but I'll just say that  Harry's moral education is being
demonstrated by the way he is learning about how to handle secrets and
how to trust. He has come from a situation  (in the Dursley household)
where he couldn't share anything about himself. Now, he is beginning to
trust and to build true, strong relationships, with teachers
(Dumbledore) parent figures (Sirius and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley) and
friends. He has to figure out as he goes how much to reveal and how much
to keep to himself in all of these relationships, and he finds figuring
out the balancing line rather confusing. See, for example, in the GoF
the interesting bit about his uncertainty about whether he should have
revealed to Sirius that his scar was hurting. He struggles to figure out
who he should entrust with this secret. When he hits upon Sirius as the
best person to confide in, he is relieved--but then he becomes angry at
himself and tries to "take the secret back" (my scar really didn't hurt)
when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously and reacts as a parent would,
by coming north. Learning how to handle secrets properly is a long,
complicated learning process, and a very important part of growing up.

Comments?

Peg


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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 >>





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 15:36:35 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 15:36:35 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p0fi3+m7ao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 961

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Another long-winded essay-post.

Length is not the issue, m'dear.  It's quality.  Like Dee, I am 
saving your posts... I will find a way to work HP into an upcoming 
paper this semester and IMO your ideas are gold.

>  Comments?

Just that you've hit the nail on the head yet again.  It's one of the 
themes I told my ex about as he hammered miscellaneous things 
together around my apartment.  I've convinced him to read HP--he'll 
get my copy SS today.  Mwahahaha!  My first victim.  :)

Do you have a website, Peg?  If you've already posted it I'd love to 
have the URL again.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 15:50:09 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 15:50:09 -0000
Subject: FF.net Ratings, etc.
In-Reply-To: <v02140bb7b5d8e17ff39c@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8p0gbh+2jkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 962

I agree with Denise... please keep PoU, ASA, and all other stories 
intended for an adult audience rated R.  Most of the content over 
there is G and PG-13, though I find that many authors do not know how 
to rate their work appropriately.  This is how I found PoU in the 
first place, IIRC.

I've mentioned here before that the NC-17 HP fic that I've read is 
for the most part VERY badly written.  I usually skip over it these 
days.  Rate ASA however you want to, Penny, but the R rating nowadays 
leaves a *lot* of leeway without the stigma.  To me, NC-17 is the PC 
way of rating something X.  <g>

As for the general quality of HP fic:  I haven't had nearly as much 
time lately to dig over there, but for some reason the quality seems 
to be sinking as more novice writers find the FFnet site and upload 
like crazy.  But quality *is* there.  "Seek and ye shall find, knock 
and the door shall be opened, ask and it shall be given to you."

I do hope Rita and some of the others here who are toying with the 
idea begin to write fic in earnest, and would like to read more from 
Jim AKA Dadgrid.  Peg, writing short fic will be a good way of 
keeping your skills sharp between MSs... that is, if you can find the 
time.  :) 

My adventures over there during the past six months have convinced me 
of one thing:  the only way to improve the quality of HP fic is to 
write it.  A million thanks to all those fanfic authors here who 
contribute to that.  :)

Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will NOT write fanfic herself, but is one of 
the best beta readers-boosters-pop reviewers a writer could ever ask 
for)




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep  4 16:03:05 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:03:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secrets (Long)
References: <8p0fi3+m7ao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B3C7B8.6852084F@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 963



Ebony Elizabeth wrote:
Length is not the issue, m'dear.  It's quality.  Like Dee, I am

> saving your posts... I will find a way to work HP into an upcoming
> paper this semester and IMO your ideas are gold.
>

Um . . . no offense, but I really have to say this: (speaking as a
recovering academic who sometimes had to bust students for plagiarism) I'm
sure you'll be using your own ideas, too, hmm?

> Just that you've hit the nail on the head yet again.  It's one of the
> themes I told my ex about as he hammered miscellaneous things
> together around my apartment.  I've convinced him to read HP--he'll
> get my copy SS today.  Mwahahaha!  My first victim.  :)
>

It's really fun to convince others to read the books and then talk with them
about it after they've finished.  I love creating converts.

> Do you have a website, Peg?  If you've already posted it I'd love to
> have the URL again.

This is maintained by a friend for me:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/PegKerrBibliog.html

Peg




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 16:05:47 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 16:05:47 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <8p0fi3+m7ao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p0h8r+2g2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 964

Please stop wondering why you don't seem to get many replies to your 
posts.  It is because you tie up the loose ends and develop your 
topic and and in short there is nothing else to add!!

I enjoy your post, they are some of the best and most well-thought-
out I've read.  I plan on reading your books when I can find the 
time.  

Hurrah!

Scott




From kathleen at carr.org  Mon Sep  4 16:03:12 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:03:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF.net Ratings, etc.
Message-ID: <200009041607.e84G7wv22413@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 965

I know a lot of the fanfic over there is dreadful, but what really surprises 
me is how much of it is *really* good.  Maybe I am just getting better at 
wading through it, but it amazes me that with over 5000 items posted, even 
most of the poorly written stuff tends to have a good premise.  But I have 
been finding it encouraging how much of the stuff I have been reading is 
actually well written.

Kathy


>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at egroups.com =====
>
>I agree with Denise... please keep PoU, ASA, and all other stories
>intended for an adult audience rated R.  Most of the content over
>there is G and PG-13, though I find that many authors do not know how
>to rate their work appropriately.  This is how I found PoU in the
>first place, IIRC.
>
>I've mentioned here before that the NC-17 HP fic that I've read is
>for the most part VERY badly written.  I usually skip over it these
>days.  Rate ASA however you want to, Penny, but the R rating nowadays
>leaves a *lot* of leeway without the stigma.  To me, NC-17 is the PC
>way of rating something X.  <g>
>
>As for the general quality of HP fic:  I haven't had nearly as much
>time lately to dig over there, but for some reason the quality seems
>to be sinking as more novice writers find the FFnet site and upload
>like crazy.  But quality *is* there.  "Seek and ye shall find, knock
>and the door shall be opened, ask and it shall be given to you."
>
>I do hope Rita and some of the others here who are toying with the
>idea begin to write fic in earnest, and would like to read more from
>Jim AKA Dadgrid.  Peg, writing short fic will be a good way of
>keeping your skills sharp between MSs... that is, if you can find the
>time.  :)
>
>My adventures over there during the past six months have convinced me
>of one thing:  the only way to improve the quality of HP fic is to
>write it.  A million thanks to all those fanfic authors here who
>contribute to that.  :)
>
>Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will NOT write fanfic herself, but is one of
>the best beta readers-boosters-pop reviewers a writer could ever ask
>for)
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 16:13:07 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:13:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMECOCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 966

Peg, this was brilliant!  You go on being as "long-winded" as you like, I
will go on reading everything you write.

The agony for us, as readers, is that we have to wait YEARS to learn what
JKR already knows.  She's pretty dang good at keeping secrets herself.  :)
But then that's one reason why we all have been stricken with Potter fever.
Another three years of speculation and agony until we KNOW!



-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:20 AM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)

Another long-winded essay-post.

......

Comments?

Peg




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 16:21:34 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:21:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What to Read After Harry Potter 
In-Reply-To: <008b01c01680$197cad00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEECPCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 967

This is the oddest list of "what to read after HP" books I've ever come
across.  These are all historical novels -- what do they have to do with a
fantasy like Harry Potter?  Most of these kinds of lists recommend books
that are at least in the same genre as HP.  Strange.


-----Original Message-----
From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:55 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What to Read After Harry Potter

Monday September 4 8:01 AM ET
What to Read After Harry Potter

By Ellen Freilich

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A month after the release of J.K. Rowling's ``Harry
Potter and the Goblet of Fire,'' any Potter fan worth his salt has finished
the 734-page book, an international publishing phenomenon and the fourth
volume about the plucky young wizard's apprentice.

So what can a youthful book-lover read in August?

Plenty, it turns out. Books about nature and summer itself seem particularly
apt for the season. But the key element of a good summer book is for the
reader be drawn in so completely that he doesn't want to come up for air
until the last page is finished.

One such tale is Gary Blackwood's ``The Shakespeare Stealer'' (Puffin
Books). Set in Elizabethan England, the Shakespeare stealer is a young
apprentice, Widge, who is ordered by his master, an angry former member of
Shakespeare's acting company, to sneak into the Globe Theater and copy down
the words of ''Hamlet'' so it can be performed by his rival acting company.

In the process of carrying out his master's orders, Widge is drawn into the
company of the Globe players, who begin to train him as an actor and treat
him as a friend. Widge's predicament of being charged to steal from his
newfound friends keeps the reader in suspense while giving us a taste of
what it might have been like to work at the Globe with the Bard himself
present.

``Mary, Bloody Mary'' by Carolyn Meyer (Gulliver Books, Harcourt, Brace &
Company) is set in a slightly earlier historical period, during the reign of
King Henry VIII. Mary ascended to the throne of England six years after her
father's death, and after her death she was succeeded by her younger sister,
Elizabeth.

Mary, Mayans And Monday

History has accorded Mary an unflattering nickname, but this book is most
sympathetic to a young girl and woman who was treated by her father, Henry
VIII, as nothing more than a high-priced piece of property and a pawn in the
king's bitter fight with her mother, Catherine of Aragon.

A Mayan city in the 9th century provides the setting for Chris Eboch's ``The
Well of Sacrifice'' (Clarion Books). Eveningstar Macaw lives in a Mayan city
that appears prosperous until its king dies and is succeeded by the High
Priest. The priest orders the sacrifice of Eveningstar's beloved brother,
along with many other young male nobles.

Eveningstar's attempt to rescue her brother puts her own life in jeopardy
and she must escape the city to save her life and rescue her family. This
fast-paced tale, narrated by its heroine, is rich with details of
9th-century Mayan life.

Eleven-year-old Monday de Groot is the protagonist of Sharon Dennis Wyeth's
``Once on This River'' (Knopf), set in colonial New York. Monday has known
nothing of slavery all her life until she leaves the safety of Madagascar
and sets sail with her mother for America, where her mother hopes to rescue
Monday's uncle, a free man who has been illegally enslaved by a wealthy
Dutch family in New York.

Wyeth repopulates downtown New York with the people who inhabited the city
in the mid-1700s, including a community of free blacks who lived there at
the same time enslaved Africans were being sold at a place called the Meal
Market.

Pioneers, Settlers And Soldiers

Joseph Bruchac's ``Sacajawea'' (Silver Whistle/Harcourt Inc.) is set half a
century later, in the early 1800s, during the carefully recorded expedition
of Lewis and Clark, two explorers who were authorized by President Thomas
Jefferson to explore the land from the Mississippi River to the Pacific
Ocean.

The story is told from alternating points of view -- the diaries of William
Clark and the fictionalized voice of a young Shoshone woman, Sacajawea, who
at age 16 served as translator, peacemaker, caretaker and guide for Lewis
and Clark on their historic explorations.

In 1870, on the flat, open prairie of America, the two pioneer sisters of
Frances Arrington's ``Bluestem'' (Philomel Books) must survive without their
parents when, with their father away, their mother falls strangely silent,
unable to cope with the loneliness of the prairie and the loss of her baby
during the winter.

Although frightened, 9-year-old Jessie and 11-year-old Polly manage to ward
off the intrusions of an unsympathetic neighboring family who would be happy
to grab their land, and the girls survive until, at last, their father
returns. ''Bluestem'' effectively portrays both the emptiness and the beauty
of the prairie.

In Sara Harrell Banks' ``Abraham's Battle: A Novel of Gettysburg'' (Atheneum
Books for Young Readers), Abraham Small, a free black man and the caretaker
of a Gettysburg estate, meets Lamar Cooper, a poor, white Confederate
soldier who has never known a slave, before the historic battle ensues.

Their paths cross during the battle, Abraham now a member of a Union
ambulance corps and Lamar a critically wounded soldier. It's a juncture that
forces Abraham, and the readers of this novel, to discern when people's
common humanity supersedes their differences.

Marisa, a Polish Jew whose blond hair and blue eyes allow her to pass as a
Christian, is the heroine of Carol Matas' ``In My Enemy's House'' (Simon &
Schuster Books for Young Readers). With her family either scattered or dead,
Marisa makes her way to Germany, hoping to survive the war as a Polish
worker. There she finds work in the household of a high-ranking Nazi and is
befriended by his daughter, all as she hides in plain sight in her enemy's
house.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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From kathleen at carr.org  Mon Sep  4 16:18:17 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:18:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)
Message-ID: <200009041623.e84GN3v24263@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 968

Oh, Peg, that was beautiful.  I am glad you chose to wrote this because I have 
been thinking a lot about secrets in HP since the first time I read PoA.  
There is a huge relationship between this and your previous post on loyalty, I 
think.  Not only with Pettigrew betraying Lily and James, but I can think of 
several examples involving Hermione as well.  Aside from keeping Lupin's 
secret, she kept the secret of the Time turner (and again, Dumbledore allowed 
her to reveal that when the time was right).  But she appeared to betray Ron 
and Harry by telling Professor McGonagall about the Firebolt.  So she appeared 
to be disloyal, when actually she was being very loyal by trying to protect 
Harry (a nice parallel, on a small scale, to Sirius' situation, and Lupin's as 
well, come to think of it).

Another, small example: when Ginny refuses to tell Ron who Hermione is going 
to the Yule Ball with: "I'm not telling you; it's her business."  And another 
example, maybe a stretch, is that both Harry and Hermione clearly realize that 
Ron has feelings for Hermione, but sort of allow him to keep his secret until 
he's ready to tell it.  In fact, when Hermione gets angry and mentions it 
("Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last 
resort!"), she later seems to regret pushing it, and she and Ron sort of 
pretend it didn't happen.  Your musings on secrets gave me a clearer 
understanding of why they both reacted that way.

Also, does anyone else have the feeling that Hermione knows, or at least 
suspects, about Neville's parents?  I can't help thinking she would have read 
about it in "The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts" or one of her other books.  
Or that Neville might even have told her, although that's much less likely.  
(I have a feeling if he were to tell anyone it would be her.)  The way she was 
so concerned about him when they learned about the Cruciatus curse makes me 
think that she at least suspects.  She's always sort of watched out for 
Neville.  (Incidentally, off topic, I had always wondered why Neville had been 
pale and shaking like Ginny when the Dementor came on the train in PoA--now we 
know.)

Another thought: what do you make of the fact that Hagrid, though on Our Team, 
doesn't seema as capable of keeping secrets?  Remember, he was the one who 
spilled the beans about Fluffy in PS/SS.  Do you think that will be important 
later too?

Okay, I have rambled enough.  Thatnks for giving us all such great food for 
thought Peg!

Kathy




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 16:30:53 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:30:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF.net Ratings, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200009041607.e84G7wv22413@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOECPCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 969

I have a way that I "sniff" out a story on fanfiction.net before deciding to
invest time reading it.  I just scroll rapidly through the file.  If it
looks like nothing but a series of one-sentence statements by the
characters, it's pretty safe to give it a miss.

Example:

"Blah blah blah," said Harry.

"Blah blah blah," Ron mumbled.

"Blah blah Blah," Hermione remarked.

"Blah blah blah," Ron mumbled.

"Blah blah Blah," Hermione answered.

"Blah blah blah," said Harry.


But if the page resembles an actual novel (long paragraphs, short
paragraphs, descriptions interspersed with realistic conversations), then
it's worth a second look.





From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 16:46:15 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 16:46:15 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p0jkn+7ec9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 970

You ask for comments, Peg, but you leave so few loopholes and so few 
elements untouched that I am always struggling to find anything to 
add.  But I've given it a shot.  

Peg wrote:  

<<The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their 
essence, the unfolding of a mystery, and what that mystery means to 
our main character. The seminal scene which sets the series in motion 
is that fatal night when James and Lily were killed and, 
paradoxically, Harry thwarted Voldemort. And the central engine of 
the series is our drive to find out, slowly, book by book, what 
happened that night? What was that all about? How and why?  As we 
learn more, we, along with Harry discover other mysteries and 
secrets. Who is Sirius, and what is his role in all this? What about 
Peter Pettigrew? Or Snape? As Harry understands more and more (and we 
do, too, as his audience), Harry comes to understand  himself and his 
relation to others more clearly.  When he understands all in the 7th 
book, he  will be fully an adult.>>

Also, it is Harry finding out about his ancestry and his birth, the 
way orphan children in books always do.  He is discovering the 
secrets about himself.      

An image that I'd like to add here is that of the Mirror of Erised, 
which, in a way, reveals a person's secrets to themselves.  Speaking 
of the Mirror, it was interesting that Dumbledore would not tell 
Harry what he saw in it (unless you believe he was telling the truth 
about the socks, but I don't).    


<<Hermione does the same for Lupin, concealing that he is a werewolf, 
reasoning that it is not her secret to tell.>>

But she does tell it when she thinks that this information she is 
keeping is of vital importance to her friends.  An example of keeping 
a secret until it is right to tell.  Hermione does not show 
Dumbledore's tact in letting Remus reveal his own secrets.  I wonder 
whether he would have said anything if she hadn't forced his hand.  


<<Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. 
(Incidentally, the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of 
Snape's secret, whatever it is, is one of the most effective 
arguments to me that Snape is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the 
powers of light,  as surly as he is.)>>

Yes, most definitely.  By keeping his secret, Dumbledore shows trust 
in Snape, and as long as Snape is who he claims to be (i.e. not 
taking Polyjuice Potion), I think Snape is on Our Team.  I like that 
there are people on Our Team who are unpleasant.  

<<All of these revelations serve to reveal progressive layers of 
truth to Harry, each layer as he grows mature enough to handle it, 
which in turn reveals to him what his relationships are to other 
people. At the end of PoA, he learns that Sirius isn't a murderer, 
but his godfather, his surrogate parent, and he is strengthened and 
encouraged and more firmly anchored by learning the truth.>>

For me, this is one of the reasons (the other being the presence of 
Professor Lupin!) that I liked PoA best of all the books.  In GoF, 
Harry does not learn the same sort of lessons about who he is.    

<<Now let's look at the Other Team in contrast:
1) members of the Other Team reveal secrets before they are ripe, 
(and not their own secrets, either). They also betray secrets 
entrusted to them. Exhibit 1: Rita Skeeter. Exhibit 2:  Wormtail, 
betraying James and Lily to Voldemort. Here you see how secrets and 
how they  are handled (or betrayed) touches upon issues of loyalty, 
which I wrote about in one of my  previous posts.>>

Does this mean you think Rita Skeeter is working for Voldemort?  I 
have wondered about this.  We were told to be prepared to meet a new 
female character who was evil in Book 4, and Rita Skeeter is the only 
real possibility, to my mind.  I wonder which side she belongs on, if 
you divide things into Dumbledore's side and Voldemort's side.  From 
the way she handles secrets, it would seem that she belongs on 
Voldemort's side.  

<<So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping 
secrets, discovering secrets, protecting secrets and betraying 
secrets teaches Harry about himself, and teaches all of us  about 
character and morality.>>

And that's why we love HP so much!    

~Blaise.  





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 17:00:43 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:00:43 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <7b.92ba0a8.26e515e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8p0kfs+g5sd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 971

This is great; I really loved your post, too, Peg!
The way JKR reveals more and more about the night Harry's parents 
died (often through Harry's reliving that night in some form) reminds 
me of the technique used in Catch-22 with the Avignon bombing.  I had 
to read Catch-22 last spring for English class, and though I found it 
immensely frustrating to read in some ways, the continual repetition 
of the Avignon scene --with a little more revealed each time--was one 
aspect of the book I loved.
That JKR is using techniques like this that are usually associated 
with so called "Great Lit'rature" is yet another indication (as if we 
needed one!) that she is not just writing a simple children's series.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ellimist15 at a... wrote:
> ::applauds:: Wow. Fantastic interpretation. Excellent job, Peg!
> 
> Ellie
> 
> In a message dated Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:17:35 AM Eastern Daylight 
Time, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> writes:
> 
> 
> Another long-winded essay-post.
> 
> The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their 
essence,
> the unfolding of a
> mystery, and what that mystery means to our main character. The 
seminal
> scene which sets  the
> series in motion is that fatal night when James and Lily were killed
> and, paradoxically,  Harry
> thwarted Voldemort. And the central engine of the series is our 
drive to
> find out,  slowly, book by book, what happened that night? What was 
that
> all about? How and why?  As we learn more, we, along with Harry,
> discover other mysteries and secrets. Who is Sirius, and what is his
> role in all this? What about Peter Pettigrew? Or Snape? As Harry
> understands more and more (and we do, too, as his audience), Harry 
comes
> to understand  himself and his relation to others more clearly.  
When he
> understands all in the 7th book, he  will be fully an adult.
> 
> Speaking metaphorically, discovering the truth is, for Harry, in a 
way,
> the drawing of a map depicting his personal world and his 
relationship
> to it. As  he gets more information, the map becomes more accurate
> until, presumably, in the 7th book, the map will be close enough to 
the
> truth to carry him into adulthood. Put another way, as  Harry slowly
> pierces the layer of mystery and secrets surrounding himself, it's 
as if
> he is chiseling away at the marble surrounding the statue of himself
> buried in a stone. When all the  veils are brushed away, he will see
> himself, and his relation to the world, the way he truly is.
> 
> Now let's look at secrets, as handled by Our Team vs. the Other 
Team.
> 
> Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are
> best kept until they are
> "ripe," but they must told when the time is right. Significantly, 
they
> must be told by the person
> who the secret belongs to. Examples: Dumbledore knows that Harry has
> secrets, and  encourages him to open up about them ("is there 
anything
> you'd like to tell me, Harry?  Anything at all?"), but doesn't force
> Harry to tell before he is ready. When Harry  inadvertently stumbles
> upon Neville's secret, Dumbledore tells him to keep the secret until
> Neville is ready to tell it himself.
> 
> Hermione does the same for Lupin, concealing that he is a werewolf,
> reasoning that it is not  her
> secret to tell.
> 
> Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. 
(Incidentally,
> the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of Snape's secret,
> whatever it is, is one of the most effective arguments to me that 
Snape
> is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the powers of light,  as surly 
as he
> is.)
> 
> When events change, Dumbledore will prod people to disclose their
> secrets because
> circumstances make it necessary--but still, he will give them 
control by
> allowing them to reveal
> it themselves. Note, for example, in the hospital wing at the end of
> GoF: he says, "It is time for
> two of us to recognize each other for what they are." (This is the
> key--revealing a secret for
> Dumbledore means revealing the true self.) Then he says, "Sirius, 
if you
> could resume your
> usual form." He doesn't come out and say, "Snape, that dog is 
Sirius."
> Instead, he lets Sirius
> reveal it himself.
> 
> All of these revelations serve to reveal progressive layers of 
truth to
> Harry, each layer as he
> grows mature enough to handle it, which in turn reveals to him what 
his
> relationships are to
> other people. At the end of PoA, he learns that Sirius isn't a 
murderer,
> but his godfather, his
> surrogate parent, and he is strengthened and encouraged and more 
firmly
> anchored by learning
> the truth.
> 
> Now let's look at the Other Team in contrast:
> 
> 1) members of the Other Team reveal secrets before they are ripe, 
(and
> not their own secrets,
> either). They also betray secrets entrusted to them. Exhibit 1: Rita
> Skeeter. Exhibit 2:  Wormtail, betraying James and Lily to 
Voldemort.
> Here you see how secrets and how they  are handled (or betrayed) 
touches
> upon issues of loyalty, which I wrote about in one of my  previous
> posts.
> 
> 2) when revealing another person's secret, members of the Other Team
> will put as negative  an
> interpretation on it as possible. Again, Rita Skeeter is a good 
example,
> putting as much
> insinuation as possible into her stories about Hagrid, Hermione and
> Harry.  Draco Malfoy is another, who usually worms out what Harry 
would
> like to have remain private and puts as embarrassing an 
interpretation
> on it as possible (e.g., the faintness Harry feels around 
dementors).
> 
> 3) conversely, the Other Team keeps secrets PAST the point that they
> should be revealed.  Barty Crouch, Sr. is an example, as are the 
Death
> eaters, hiding their loyalty to Voldemort.  Winky and Dobby, too, 
while
> under the Other team's influence, make the mistake of keeping  
secrets
> that should be told, out of a kind of mistaken loyalty.
> 
> 4) secrets are used to plot, to trick, to trap, to wriggle out of
> consequences for one's own
> behavior. Examples: Barty Crouch, Jr., Wormtail, Voldemort, Lucius
> Malfoy.   (H, R and Hr offer a contrasting example: they keep the 
secret
> about Hagrid keeping an  illegal dragon. But when caught coming down
> from the tower, they do not lie. They simply  accept their 
punishment
> stoically. Malfoy, I think, would have lied.)
> 
> Yes, on the other hand, I will admit, Our Team sometimes lies, too,
> including Harry.  But, I
> think, Harrys attitude about this type of lie is changing, 
as a result
> of his moral education.
> Remember, for example, the time Harry was almost caught by Snape 
when he
> snuck out to
> Hogsmeade in PoA. He did lie there, and Ron and Lupin covered for 
him.
> Lupin scolded  Harry severely, though, in a way that I'm sure Harry 
will
> never forget. Lupin was telling him  here, "If you're going to keep 
a
> secret, make sure it's a moral secret, one that's worth  
keeping.)   We
> later discover a whole other ironic layer to this interchange, when
> Lupin admits that he has been lying, too, to Dumbledore, by not
> revealing that his friends had learned to became animagi, and 
helped him
> escape from the shrieking shack when he was a werewolf.  Note the
> interplay of secrets and trust here--Lupin had been afraid to admit 
his
> secret because he couldn't bear to admit how he had violated
> Dumbledore's trust.  Note, too, that Lupin himself eventually 
reveals
> this secret when it becomes ripe, i.e., when he has 
to explain to H, R
> and Hr about Sirius role, and why they really REALLY needs 
to see Rons
> rat.
> 
> So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping 
secrets,
> discovering secrets,
> protecting secrets and betraying secrets teaches Harry about 
himself,
> and teaches all of us  about character and morality.
> 
> Afterthought, related: It has been commented by many critics of the
> series that Harry is a bad
> example, evil, etc., because he lies. That's probably a whole other
> post, but I'll just say that  Harry's moral education is being
> demonstrated by the way he is learning about how to handle secrets 
and
> how to trust. He has come from a situation  (in the Dursley 
household)
> where he couldn't share anything about himself. Now, he is 
beginning to
> trust and to build true, strong relationships, with teachers
> (Dumbledore) parent figures (Sirius and Mr. and Mrs. Weasley) and
> friends. He has to figure out as he goes how much to reveal and how 
much
> to keep to himself in all of these relationships, and he finds 
figuring
> out the balancing line rather confusing. See, for example, in the 
GoF
> the interesting bit about his uncertainty about whether he should 
have
> revealed to Sirius that his scar was hurting. He struggles to 
figure out
> who he should entrust with this secret. When he hits upon Sirius as 
the
> best person to confide in, he is relieved--but then he becomes 
angry at
> himself and tries to "take the secret back" (my scar really didn't 
hurt)
> when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously and reacts as a parent 
would,
> by coming north. Learning how to handle secrets properly is a long,
> complicated learning process, and a very important part of growing 
up.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Peg
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
>  >>




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep  4 17:47:16 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:47:16 -0700
Subject: Evil Women (was: Secrets (Long))
In-Reply-To: <8p0jkn+7ec9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEDBCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 972

Blaise wrote:
>>>>We were told to be prepared to meet a new female character who was evil
in Book 4, and Rita Skeeter is the only real possibility, to my mind. <<<<<


I think we can be said to have "met" Mrs. LeStrange (the woman on trial in
the Pensieve). I think that Dumbledore's prediction will come true, that the
Dementors will go over to Voldemort in Book 5, and that the Azkaban
prisoners loyal to Voldemort will be released to inflict havoc.  Mrs.
LeStrange is probably another of those characters like Sirius, that we hear
about offhand in one book, who turn out to be very important in one of the
later books.




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep  4 17:57:50 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:57:50 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Truth Quill (was: Slambooks at Hogwar
In-Reply-To: <id.03092000151254.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <8p0nqu+2vue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 973

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will check out Peg Kerr's work as soon as 
she  has two nickels to rub together)
> 
> Ebony, I finished both of Peg's books.  The first was very 
enjoyable, so I rushed right out for her "The Wild Swans."  Now, I 
really liked her first - "Emerald House Rising," but the second was 
absolutely INCREDIBLE!  I was riding Amtrak, on my way to visit my 
parents, and there were moments when I was literally weeping, and not 
especially caring what the other commuters were thinking.  So for 
anyone who is in need of some very good reads, I highly recommend 
Peg's books.

I have to add my support here.  I started Emerald House Rising last 
night and while I have only read a few chapters, I love it!  (I read 
a lot of sci-fi/fantasy and unfortunately much of it is badly written 
and full of cliche, but this is neither.)  Emerald House Rising is so 
good in fact, that it will take all my will power to get some work 
done today - I would so much rather keep reading it.

-- Joywitch




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 18:28:11 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:28:11 +0100
Subject: A Question about Wheezes..
References: <968079537.14158@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B3E9BB.69B2D2DC@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 975

This is my first post. Just been catching up with digests.

  On Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:36:59 -0000 "Jen Piersol" <jenP_97 at yahoo.com>
asked:

>Hi all.  Neil told me a (long) while ago what a Knickerbocker Glory
>was... and now I have another question for the British members of
>our club... does the word "wheezes" mean something specific in
>British English?  I have a vague memory of seeing it somewhere other
>than GoF, so it makes me suspect that it's not just a madeup word -
>I hope I'm not looking incredibly stupid for asking... and I hope
>I'm not the only American who's never heard of whatever wheezes
>are.... that is, if they actually do exist.

As no one seems to have answered this - the COED defines a wheeze (noun colloq. British) as  'a clever scheme'.


Vivienne





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep  4 18:46:37 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:46:37 -0000
Subject: Question regarding Secrets
Message-ID: <8p0qmd+cfv1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 976

Hello everyone--

Peg, your posts are immensely interesting.  They've definitely added 
a new layer to my understanding of and appreciation for these books.  
There's a question I've had regarding an example you gave.  Regarding 
Dumble asking Harry in each(?) book, "Is there anything you'd like to 
tell me?  Anything at all?"  Harry always says no, yet each book has 
an instance of Harry noting how safe he feels with Dumble.  I can 
understand early in the series, Harry doesn't feel comfortable for 
whatever reasons, telling Dum. certain things.  By GoF, however, it's 
getting more difficult to accept these 'reasons'.  Perhaps this will 
no longer be the case in future books, since this turning point has 
occurred.  However, by the time we reached PoA, I had a hard time 
accepting those reasons that Harry had for keeping info from Dumble.  

I realize this is a literary device to keep the story going, so Harry 
can 'do it on his own', at the same time, reinforcing that Dumble is 
there for Harry, yet Harry's "I talk to snakes, they'll think I'm 
crazy" or "My scar's hurting, they'll think I'm a wimp" are starting 
to wear thin.  Considering how the stakes have been raised by GoF, 
it'll be interesting to see how this situation changes.  It was 
just starting to seem too implausible that Harry would ~still~ be 
so relucant to confide in Dumble.  These thoughts have me wondering, 
Peg, how does 'trust' factor in with your thoughts on 'loyalty'  
and 'secrets'?

Kelley  






From karob_7 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 18:58:05 2000
From: karob_7 at yahoo.com (Karin )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:58:05 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p0rbt+r80m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 977

Whew!  Lots of food for thought.  The discussion of secrets and the 
way they are handled reminded me of something in a Moral Development 
class I took several years ago.  

Peg wrote: 
> The Harry Potter books are, when you boil them down to their 
> essence, the unfolding of a mystery, and what that mystery means to 
> our main character....
> As Harry understands more and more (and we do, too, as his 
> audience), Harry comes to understand  himself and his relation to 
> others more clearly.  When he understands all in the 7th book, he  
> will be fully an adult.

To quote the back of the book we were discussing in that class 
(Secrets, by Paul Tournier), "Keeping a secret is the first step in 
becoming an individual.  But sharing it, the second step, is even
more 
important if an individual is to become a person, linked by common 
humanity to others."   

Living with the Dursleys, Harry was forced to begin keeping secrets 
very early.  Being an outcast in the house, he probably began to 
develop as his individuality quite early.  When he begins to learn
the 
secrets surrounding him (that he is a wizard, how his parents died, 
that he was the downfall of Voldemort), he understands more clearly 
why he didn't fit in with the Dursleys.  Though he is glad to find
out 
he is a wizard, and though he feels quite at home at Hogwarts, he 
stands out there as well.  His individuality and separateness is 
thereby reinforced.   It will be very interesting to watch as the 
secrets unfold, to see how Harry fits into (or stands out from) the 
world around him, to see how he relates to others as he continues to 
grow up.

> So: Lots to think about here, about secrets and what keeping 
> secrets, discovering secrets, protecting secrets and betraying 
> secrets teaches Harry about himself, and teaches all of us about 
> character and morality.
> Harry's moral education is being demonstrated by the way he is 
> learning about how to handle secrets and how to trust.... He has to 
> figure out as he goes how much to reveal and how much
> to keep to himself in all of these relationships, and he finds 
> figuring out the balancing line rather confusing.

Exactly... I think one reason we like Harry so well is that he is so 
often unsure of himself, but even in those times, he exhibits so much 
courage.

Another quote from the Tournier book, "Children who do not know how
to 
keep a secret, chatterboxes, men or women who don't know where to 
stop, or cannot, are powerless to establish with others a proper 
person-to-person relationship.  They cannot resist the vain pleasure 
of telling all sorts of secrets that they are proud to know, and 
because of their lack of inner freedom fall under the subjection of 
others.  But close beings, incapable of expressing anything truly 
personal, are condemned to the prison of their mental solitude" (pp. 
33-34).  

I think we see lots of examples of both in the Harry Potter books.  
Someone mentioned Hagrid as unable to keep secrets.  On the other 
hand, Lupin seems to be one who struggles with opening up to others 
(with definite cause).  Harry, so used to secrecy, seems to have some 
trouble with this as well, but he is still very young, and he is 
learning.  I don't *think* we will see Harry become more and more 
isolated as the secrets are revealed throughout the upcoming books, 
though that is a possible outcome.  

Peg, your posts are so insightful.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts 
with us!

Karin




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep  4 19:12:45 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:12:45 -0000
Subject: reply to Blaise
Message-ID: <8p0s7d+fr03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 978

Blaise--

There was supposed to have been another 'evil' female character named 
Icicle it was rumored.

Taken from Entertainment Weekly, #553, Aug. 4, interview with JKR, 
part 1:

Q: Was this the hardest book you've had to write so far?
A: Easily.
Q: Why?
A: The first three books, my plan never failed me.  But I should have 
put that plot under a microscope.  I wrote what I thought was half 
the book, and "Ack!"  Huge gaping hole in the middle of the plot.  I 
missed my deadline by two months.  And the whole profile of the books 
got so much higher since the third book; there was an edge of 
external pressure.
Q: And what exactly was that gaping hole all about?
A: I had to pull a character.  There you go:  "the phantom character 
of Harry Potter."  She was a Weasley cousin.  She served the same 
function that Rita Skeeter now serves.  Rita was always going to be 
in the book, but I built her up, because I needed a kind of conduit 
for information outside the school. Originally, this girl fulfilled 
this purpose. 

This was too bad, I would've liked an evil female Weasley cousin.

Kelley




From particle at urbanet.ch  Mon Sep  4 19:20:44 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:20:44 +0200
Subject: Argh...huge apologies!
Message-ID: <00b301c016a5$3ef78e40$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 979

I am such an idiot...I'm on another HP ML which has almost the same e-mail address as this one, and I accidentally sent an e-mail destined to that one here. Reeeeaaaaally sorry, folks. Um, Penny and ravenclawlady (you guys are the moderators, right? Sorry if I got that wrong, things have been pretty hectic lately), could you remove that e-mail from me? 

Sorry again!

A very very embarrassed Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 20:22:28 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:22:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What to Read After Harry Potter 
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEECPCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <011b01c016ad$db103680$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 980

It showed up in my mail box via Yahoo News Alerts, and I thought I would share it.  Actually, I don't recall ever hearing of these books before!

(Of course, I only skimmed the list quickly, and didn't read for details--perhaps I skipped one or two)

Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 12:21 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] What to Read After Harry Potter 



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  This is the oddest list of "what to read after HP" books I've ever come
  across.  These are all historical novels -- what do they have to do with a
  fantasy like Harry Potter?  Most of these kinds of lists recommend books
  that are at least in the same genre as HP.  Strange.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:55 AM
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] What to Read After Harry Potter

  Monday September 4 8:01 AM ET
  What to Read After Harry Potter

  By Ellen Freilich

  NEW YORK (Reuters) - A month after the release of J.K. Rowling's ``Harry
  Potter and the Goblet of Fire,'' any Potter fan worth his salt has finished
  the 734-page book, an international publishing phenomenon and the fourth
  volume about the plucky young wizard's apprentice.

  So what can a youthful book-lover read in August?

  Plenty, it turns out. Books about nature and summer itself seem particularly
  apt for the season. But the key element of a good summer book is for the
  reader be drawn in so completely that he doesn't want to come up for air
  until the last page is finished.

  One such tale is Gary Blackwood's ``The Shakespeare Stealer'' (Puffin
  Books). Set in Elizabethan England, the Shakespeare stealer is a young
  apprentice, Widge, who is ordered by his master, an angry former member of
  Shakespeare's acting company, to sneak into the Globe Theater and copy down
  the words of ''Hamlet'' so it can be performed by his rival acting company.

  In the process of carrying out his master's orders, Widge is drawn into the
  company of the Globe players, who begin to train him as an actor and treat
  him as a friend. Widge's predicament of being charged to steal from his
  newfound friends keeps the reader in suspense while giving us a taste of
  what it might have been like to work at the Globe with the Bard himself
  present.

  ``Mary, Bloody Mary'' by Carolyn Meyer (Gulliver Books, Harcourt, Brace &
  Company) is set in a slightly earlier historical period, during the reign of
  King Henry VIII. Mary ascended to the throne of England six years after her
  father's death, and after her death she was succeeded by her younger sister,
  Elizabeth.

  Mary, Mayans And Monday

  History has accorded Mary an unflattering nickname, but this book is most
  sympathetic to a young girl and woman who was treated by her father, Henry
  VIII, as nothing more than a high-priced piece of property and a pawn in the
  king's bitter fight with her mother, Catherine of Aragon.

  A Mayan city in the 9th century provides the setting for Chris Eboch's ``The
  Well of Sacrifice'' (Clarion Books). Eveningstar Macaw lives in a Mayan city
  that appears prosperous until its king dies and is succeeded by the High
  Priest. The priest orders the sacrifice of Eveningstar's beloved brother,
  along with many other young male nobles.

  Eveningstar's attempt to rescue her brother puts her own life in jeopardy
  and she must escape the city to save her life and rescue her family. This
  fast-paced tale, narrated by its heroine, is rich with details of
  9th-century Mayan life.

  Eleven-year-old Monday de Groot is the protagonist of Sharon Dennis Wyeth's
  ``Once on This River'' (Knopf), set in colonial New York. Monday has known
  nothing of slavery all her life until she leaves the safety of Madagascar
  and sets sail with her mother for America, where her mother hopes to rescue
  Monday's uncle, a free man who has been illegally enslaved by a wealthy
  Dutch family in New York.

  Wyeth repopulates downtown New York with the people who inhabited the city
  in the mid-1700s, including a community of free blacks who lived there at
  the same time enslaved Africans were being sold at a place called the Meal
  Market.

  Pioneers, Settlers And Soldiers

  Joseph Bruchac's ``Sacajawea'' (Silver Whistle/Harcourt Inc.) is set half a
  century later, in the early 1800s, during the carefully recorded expedition
  of Lewis and Clark, two explorers who were authorized by President Thomas
  Jefferson to explore the land from the Mississippi River to the Pacific
  Ocean.

  The story is told from alternating points of view -- the diaries of William
  Clark and the fictionalized voice of a young Shoshone woman, Sacajawea, who
  at age 16 served as translator, peacemaker, caretaker and guide for Lewis
  and Clark on their historic explorations.

  In 1870, on the flat, open prairie of America, the two pioneer sisters of
  Frances Arrington's ``Bluestem'' (Philomel Books) must survive without their
  parents when, with their father away, their mother falls strangely silent,
  unable to cope with the loneliness of the prairie and the loss of her baby
  during the winter.

  Although frightened, 9-year-old Jessie and 11-year-old Polly manage to ward
  off the intrusions of an unsympathetic neighboring family who would be happy
  to grab their land, and the girls survive until, at last, their father
  returns. ''Bluestem'' effectively portrays both the emptiness and the beauty
  of the prairie.

  In Sara Harrell Banks' ``Abraham's Battle: A Novel of Gettysburg'' (Atheneum
  Books for Young Readers), Abraham Small, a free black man and the caretaker
  of a Gettysburg estate, meets Lamar Cooper, a poor, white Confederate
  soldier who has never known a slave, before the historic battle ensues.

  Their paths cross during the battle, Abraham now a member of a Union
  ambulance corps and Lamar a critically wounded soldier. It's a juncture that
  forces Abraham, and the readers of this novel, to discern when people's
  common humanity supersedes their differences.

  Marisa, a Polish Jew whose blond hair and blue eyes allow her to pass as a
  Christian, is the heroine of Carol Matas' ``In My Enemy's House'' (Simon &
  Schuster Books for Young Readers). With her family either scattered or dead,
  Marisa makes her way to Germany, hoping to survive the war as a Polish
  worker. There she finds work in the household of a high-ranking Nazi and is
  befriended by his daughter, all as she hides in plain sight in her enemy's
  house.



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Sep  4 20:37:59 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:37:59 +0100
Subject: Ratings, wheeze, LOTR, secrets
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEOICHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 981

What is an R rating?

In the UK, for movies, we have U (universal - suitable for all), PG
(Parental Guidance - your guess is as good as mine as to what this really
means), 12 (suitable for 12+), 15 (suitable for 15+), 18 (suitable for 18+)
and some sort of 18+ rating. I am assuming the R rating is something that
has been converted from the movie scene as a rough guideline for content of
fan fiction.

"As no one seems to have answered this - the COED defines a wheeze (noun
colloq. British) as  'a clever scheme'."

So describing it as breathe with a hoarse whistling sound is not required
here! Do people think the chapter name was done on purpose to make the
initials www?

"If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" should really be
considered one long work divided into three volumes, but still separate from
The Hobbit."

>From the preface of my edition of the novel: The Lord of the Rings is often
erroneously called a trilogy, when it is in fact a single novel, consisting
of six books plus appendices, sometimes published in three volumes.

Earlier today Peg posted a long message about secrets. Quite a few people
replied to this. If you do reply to messages such as this (which are quite
long), especially if you just wish to say it was amazing or that you agree
with the points raised, then do not send the entire original post back
again.

"Hermione does not show Dumbledore's tact in letting Remus reveal his own
secrets. I wonder whether he would have said anything if she hadn't forced
his hand."

Yes I think he would have done so. I got he impression that when Lupin
arrived he was going to make sure everything was explained to Harry before
any action was taken against Peter. To do this Lupin would have been forced
to reveal his secret.
In Hermione's reaction we were seeing a typical wizard reaction to a
werewolf (cf Ron's reaction to Lupin in response to this declaration). I got
the impression that she blurted it out because she thinks it explains
Lupin's actions.

"When he hits upon Sirius as the best person to confide in, he is
relieved--but then he becomes angry at himself and tries to "take the secret
back" (my scar really didn't hurt) when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously
and reacts as a parent would, by coming north."

I was amazed at how quickly Harry was prepared to accept Sirius into his
life. By Sirius' own admission he was responsible for the deaths of James
and Lily. Will we be seeing a similar forgiveness shown by Cho? Harry blames
himself for this death. If I were forced to make a choice then I would pick
Cho to be Harry's girl (well there is of course my other idea - yahoo
message: 5445)

Simon






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Sep  4 21:03:53 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 22:03:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ratings, wheeze, LOTR, secrets
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000904210353.007050f8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 982

At 21:37 09/04/2000 +0100, Simon wrote:

>What is an R rating?

I'd assume it means 'Restricted', but it could easily mean 'Rude', 'Raunchy'
or perhaps 'Rumpy-Pumpy - Read It Here!'

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 21:06:58 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:06:58 -0000
Subject: Where has Harry Potter Changed my life?
Message-ID: <8p12ti+498m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 983

A week or two ago someone gave a link to a CNN story on a "How has 
Harry Potter changed my Life?" contest.  It was for those under 18 so 
I fully planned to enter.  

BUT- I cannot find the info on how to to enter, where to send my 
entry or, for that matter, any information at all.

Does anybody have any info on this contest because I would hate to 
miss the deadlie!!!

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  4 21:14:37 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:14:37 -0000
Subject: Fan-fiction
Message-ID: <8p13bt+kv9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 984

Well I did it, I've entered the realm of FF, err nervously, to say 
the least. The story is about Hermione mostly and while it wasn't 
MEANT to be a romance as a total H/Hr shipper I can't really help it.

I'm asking all of you to please read my fancfic. My, wholesome, full 
of plot holes, fanfic.  I really wouldn't say it is my best writing 
and it is smathered w/ grammatical mistakes but everyone can just 
accept that.  

After you read it I will welcome any constructive critiscism.....

Go to "Hermione- Untitled" at...
http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=68926

Thanks so much in Advance!!!

Scott





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon Sep  4 21:42:00 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:42:00 -0000
Subject: Question regarding Secrets
In-Reply-To: <8p0qmd+cfv1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p14v8+g6ot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 985

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
>...each book has an instance of Harry noting how safe he feels with 
Dumble.  I can understand early in the series, Harry doesn't feel 
comfortable for whatever reasons, telling Dum. certain things.  By 
GoF, however, it's getting more difficult to accept these 'reasons'.  
Perhaps this will no longer be the case in future books, since this 
turning point has occurred.  However, by the time we reached PoA, I 
had a hard time accepting those reasons that Harry had for keeping 
info from Dumble.  
> 
...yet Harry's "I talk to snakes, they'll think I'm 
> crazy" or "My scar's hurting, they'll think I'm a wimp" are 
starting to wear thin.  Considering how the stakes have been raised 
by GoF, it'll be interesting to see how this situation changes.  It 
was just starting to seem too implausible that Harry would ~still~ be 
> so relucant to confide in Dumble>

********
What we have to remember is that Harry does not come from a 
background where trusting adults comes easily.  It's stay in the 
background, be quiet, don't ask questions. Do it it on your own.

Harry has come a long way in trusting adults since the 1st book now 
that he has good adult role models with Dubledore, McGonagall, the 
Weasley parents, Sirius, and Lupin.  Yes, he still has a tendency to 
keep things from them. Is this because of 10 years of never being 
believed about anything he says, or simply an adolescent keeping his 
own counsel? And in GoF he *does* go to trustworthy adults when he is 
worried -- he wrote Sirius regarding his scar pain and ran to 
Dumbledore when he and Krum found Mr. Crouch wandering the Hogwarts 
grounds. Yeah, after writing Sirius he had doubts "Was I totally 
paranoid or what?"  But hasn't everyone here done the same thing?  
Appearing the paranoid fool is a natural fear. 

Also there still many adults in positions of authority in his new 
world that *never* believe him--Snape, Fudge.  Harry doesn't have a 
good track record with trust, outside of Ron and Hermione. 

I think in the future he will be more willing to go to adults in time 
of need.  He has finally realized the enormity of Voldemort's 
malevolence, having seen it firsthand (since he has no easily 
recalled memories of the first run-in, I'm not counting it) and knows 
he cannot face what may come alone.  He will need to trust others 
outside of his close circle of friends.

Just my 2 Galleons

Trina




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep  4 22:24:34 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:24:34 -0500
Subject: Housekeeping
Message-ID: <39B42122.D1E0853D@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 986

Hi --

Hope all the Americans on this list had a great Labor Day weekend.  I
wanted to address (or reiterate) a few housekeeping matters:

1.  REPLYING

Simon is right -- PLEASE don't just hit "Reply" to a long post & fail to
delete portions you're not directly responding to.   Handy guidelines
for replying (as opposed to composing a brand new post):

    a.  Check the subject Heading -- does it still make sense?  Can it
be shortened?
    b.  Delete all the egroups banners & ads at the top.  Delete all the
egroups info at the bottom.
    c.  Now -- what portions of the actual message are you replying to?
Delete everything you're not replying to.  Leave things that you are
replying to in quotes, so as to distinguish your thoughts from those of
the person you're replying to.

2.  COMBINE REPLIES INTO ONE POST WHENEVER POSSIBLE

If you have several posts where you really don't want to say much more
than 1-3 lines about each one of them, consider combining them in a
whole new post.  Simon does this effectively quite a bit.  This is
especially important if all you're going to say is "I agree" or "LOL!"
about several different posts.  In general, I think most of us would
prefer to avoid the latter ("I agree" & "LOL" type posts) altogether
though.

Even if you've got a fair bit of substance to add to several topics, it
may still be worthwhile to consider combining.  I've done this and I
know several others do as well.

The reason for my bringing this up is that I received 110 emails in a
period of about 8 hrs yesterday.  While these aren't problems for me,
many of us are dealing with slow modems, limited inbox space and/or
expensive phone charges.  My problem is simply becoming lack of time.  I
can forsee that the volume of email I'm currently receiving could
potentially become quite overwhelming if the pace continues.  So  . . .
. I certainly don't want to discourage all the active discussions we've
been having.  But, if there's a way for you to combine several replies
into one post, do it!  Please.

3.  SUBJECT HEADINGS

I know I sound like a broken record on this topic but . . . . we had
about 8 bezillion posts over the last few days that read "Re: HP &
Foccacia Bread."  Right now -- I read all the posts that go through this
list.  If the time should come when I might need to be more picky about
what I choose to read & what I choose to delete unread, I assure you
that all the "HP & Foccacia Bread" posts would have fallen into the
latter category.  Please be accurate & descriptive in your subject
headings.  Oh, Scott (I'm pretty sure it was Scott?) -- your original
post re: the Foccacia Bread was fine.  I simply object to the continued
"Re: HP & Foccacia Bread" business -- especially when the replies veered
off significantly from your original topic.

Thanks if you're still listening --

Penny




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep  4 23:16:56 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:16:56 -0500
Subject: Draco; Marauders' Map; WWII; Forgiveness; Peg's Posts
Message-ID: <39B42D68.836D8F0E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 987

Hi --

Practicing what I preach so to speak --

DARKNESS IN HP --

Jim wrote:

> It ties in with my notions of of one of the things JKR is trying to do in these books.  Among other things, she wants
> her young readers to realize that bad is *bad*.
> I don't know how many messages I've seen on boards frequented by younger readers that say "wouldn't it be cool if Harry went to the Dark Side?" "I think the Dark stuff is cool!"  That kind of thing.
> These kids have grown up on cartoon-funny Scooby-Doo villains and moved on to the cooler than the good guy Disney villains and the
> World Wrestling Federation [their HQ is about 600 feet from where I'm
> sitting].  Heck, a lot of us grew up watching the bumbling funny Nazi
> guards on Hogan's Heroes, a program I found offensive.
>
> Your point is that Draco is going to have to come to grips with what
> it means to be Dark, the same journey I hope some of the readers
> take. It's the same journey Snape made and still struggles with. Will it
> come out the same way?
>
I'm with Jim -- I hope these younger readers really learn what evil is
all about through HP.  That's yet another reason I hope she & her
publishers won't succumb to any pressures to "tone it down."  There are
important lessons to be learned, and right now, JKR has the bully pulpit
at her disposal.

As for Draco & whether he might turn down Snape's path (presuming that
Snape really is on Our Side) -- well, I'm not entirely convinced.  I
know there are some Draco "fans" out there and maybe they can convince
me otherwise.  I just don't see any evidence of any redeeming
characteristics or any hint that Draco might renounce his father and the
Dark Side.  There are certainly plot devices that could change all of
that -- he might well have his eyes opened at some later point.  But, as
for how things stand right now, I just don't see him becoming a good guy
in the end.  The *only* thing about Draco that gives me pause is that
apparently his father gives him a hard time & isn't very "fatherly" (I'm
thinking of the harsh words Harry overheard Lucius exchanging about
Draco in the store in Knockturn Alley -- CoS).

MARAUDERS' MAP -- Where is it at the end of GoF?  Well, the invisibility
cloak keeps getting returned to Harry, and I would imagine we'll see
Harry get his hands on the map again (or hear how it came back into his
possession) fairly early on in Book 5.  Of course, now Dumbledore knows
about the Map.  But then, he's the one who gave Harry the invisibility
cloak.

WORLD WAR II PARALLELS -- Brooks, I'd love to hear more thoughts from
you on this subject.  I was thinking about that some more today.  I'm a
bit of a WWII buff, so I may try to write a "Peg Kerr" thesis on the
subject and post it soon.

WHAT TO READ RECOMMENDATIONS -- Someone was surprised that the list
contained so many non-fantasy type books.  <vbg>  I suspect that's why
that particular list caught my eye & why I printed it out.  HP is so far
the only fantasy series I've enjoyed (and I've never read any sci-fi).
I prefer historical fiction & non-fiction in general.  I didn't even
notice that it didn't really contain "fantasy" recommendations.  I just
kept saying "ooh, that might be good" -- better print this out.

FORGIVENESS -- Simon expressed some surprise that Harry accepted Sirius
into his life so readily since Sirius admitted to being "responsible"
for the deaths of James & Lily.  I would say that his "responsibility"
is really fairly "indirect."  It's not as though he changed Secret
Keepers with any sort of nefarious motive.  He did so because he thought
it was maximizing the potential for the safety of the Potter family.  He
was devastated by their deaths (and his own indirect role in bringing
those deaths about), and I think the depth of his emotions was clear to
Harry.  It didn't seem strained or unnatural to me that Harry would,
once he believed Sirius' story, take him into his life.  Sirius also
spent that summer showing parental-like concern for Harry (2 letters, a
birthday cake).

PEG -- great posts on loyalty & secrets!  I may have thoughts to add
later, but for now, I'll just echo what others have said.  Wonderful
insights -- keep posting.  BTW, I know you're a fairly new member & you
probably don't know many of us that well yet.  But, I feel I should step
in to Ebony's defense -- from my own judgment of Ebony, I'd say she's
about the last person who might plagiarize anything.  I don't think she
had any intention of taking your words & thoughts verbatim & passing
them off as her own.  I know you said "no offense" & I take you at your
word on that, but, in all honesty, the remark probably would have
offended me if it had been directed at me.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From johanna at hal-pc.org  Mon Sep  4 23:07:20 2000
From: johanna at hal-pc.org (Johanna B. Laite)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:07:20 -0500
Subject: authors Gaiman,Pratchett, & HP religion etc.
References: <967904665.716@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B42B28.C6D01711@hal-pc.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 988

heidi  wrote:
Subject: somewhat OT: Gaiman

> He also wrote a terrifically funny book with Terry Pratchett called
> Good Omens

Finally sone else here has mentioned MY favorite author, Terry
Pratchett.  I read all of Pratchett first - LOL on every book - then
Gaiman - Good Omens is terrific.  All that wizard stuff led me to HP. 
And BTW,  Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman is NOT funny like Good Omens.  I
didn't really "like" it at the time I read it, but nevertheless I
couldn't put Neverwhere down.  :-)  I need to read all of Pratchett
again because I can't answer half the stuff on the trivia quizzes on
those E-groups.  

If you enjoy seeing religion satirized and pretty well chewed up and
spit out along with delightful magical powers, try Parke Godwin's 
"Waiting for the Galactic Bus" and the small sequel "The Snake Oil Wars
(or Scheherazade Ginzberg Strikes Again)".  Yes, that's really the
title.  Had to get out the book to spell that!  Earth's Heaven and Hell
are called Topside and Below Stairs and are the creation of a couple of
intergalactic teenage brothers who are part of a race of immortals. 
They miss the "bus" to take them back to school after a holiday on
prehistoric Earth and give Earth's current simians a bit of a boost. 
:-).  Pratchett's best book to tear up religion is "Small Gods"  he
leaves no religion untouched.  You can find a parallel to almost any
religion on Earth in there somewhere.

Along the lines of religion, this was probably discussed by those on the
list way back, it is interesting to me to note that neither religion nor
any form of church has  been even hinted at to my knowledge.  If there
was a good discussion of this on earlier E-mails (more than the last
couple of weeks) point me to which Month or which list and I'll read
that first.  I'm on ALL the adult HP lists, I think but just starting to
catch up with current posts.

Johanna Laite

-- 
"Oh, you patronise the opera?"
"Lady Esmerelda patronises everything," said Nanny Ogg stoutly.

                                  Terry Pratchett -  Maskerade



From johanna at hal-pc.org  Mon Sep  4 23:12:35 2000
From: johanna at hal-pc.org (Johanna B. Laite)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:12:35 -0500
Subject: DIGEST QUESTION
References: <967904665.716@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B42C63.FE894DDC@hal-pc.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 989

Folks in the know:

I chose digest form because I thought I would only get one a day.  Why,
OH why, am I getting several?  Why do I have Digest nunbers 37,38,39,40
and 41 all on Sunday????

I have other E-groups that I REALLY need to get as separate posts and
I'm trying to geep my total volume down to 50 a day.  Sob.  Help me.

Johanna Laite

-- 
"Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly.
"Mind you,  my first name is Bad."  
    
                Terry Pratchett -   Interesting Times



From warmsley at btinternet.com  Mon Sep  4 23:37:46 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:37:46 +0100
Subject: authors Gaiman,Pratchett, & HP religion etc.
Message-ID: <01c016c9$20e9ba80$103363c3@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 990

>Finally sone else here has mentioned MY favorite author, Terry
>Pratchett.  I read all of Pratchett first - LOL on every book -
then
>Gaiman - Good Omens is terrific.  All that wizard stuff led me
to HP.
>And BTW,  Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman is NOT funny like Good
Omens.  I
>didn't really "like" it at the time I read it, but nevertheless
I
>couldn't put Neverwhere down.  :-)  I need to read all of
Pratchett
>again because I can't answer half the stuff on the trivia
quizzes on
>those E-groups.
>
>Pratchett's best book to tear up religion is "Small Gods"  he
>leaves no religion untouched.  You can find a parallel to
almost any
>religion on Earth in there somewhere.
>

Oh, its brilliant, isn't it? I re-read it the other day... the
first time I read it it was just a story (and in fact I didn't
enjoy it that much) but this time... wow.

<shameless plug> On the subject of Pratchett, myself, Morrigan
(who is also a listee, albeit a currently absent one) and NS
(who isn't) wrote & I recorded a version of the Hedgehog Song
that is alluded to in the Witch books... it's downloadable from
www.fanfiction.net - do a search for Morrigan and one the things
turned up will be a Hedgehog song. (And whilst we're on the
subject, Morrigan has some *excellent* HP fanfics floating
about, and they're thoroughly worth checking out too).

>Along the lines of religion, this was probably discussed by
those on the
>list way back, it is interesting to me to note that neither
religion nor
>any form of church has  been even hinted at to my knowledge.

In Britain, the vast majority of people are apathetic when it
comes to religion - I think maybe 4% of the population are
regular church/mosque/synagogue/whatever-goers. So that may be a
factor. Additionally, well, they're wizards, and a lot of of the
big religions tend to frown on that sort of thing.  So those are
probably the two most pertinent reasons for the absence of
religion in the HP books.
The wizards do celebrate Christmas, but it seems to me to be the
Santa Claus christmas rather than the Jesus one.
Oh, and the wizards don't seem to be "pagans" either - I know
very little about wicca etc (although I understand that there
are a few on the list, perhaps they'll be more illuminating) -
not religious ceremonies of any sort, really.

Jeremy

Jeremy




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  4 23:39:25 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 23:39:25 -0000
Subject: WWII parallel
Message-ID: <8p1brd+omv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 991

When I read in Dumbledore's short bio in SS that he "defeated the 
dark wizard Grindlewold in 1945" (sorry if I didn't get the quote 
right--I am at college now and do not have the books at hand) I 
immediately thought of the parallel event happening in the Muggle 
world that same year--the defeat of Hitler.  Is it too much of a 
conclusion to jump to that WWII might have spilled over into the 
wizard world?  Perhaps Grindlewold [sp?] was aiding Hitler somehow--
didn't I hear somwhere that Hitler was very interested in the 
supernatural?
I don't know if JKR has given any kind of additional back story about 
this.  But at the very least, my idea would make an interesting 
starting point for a fanfic.




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Sep  4 23:56:14 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 23:56:14 -0000
Subject: Housekeeping
In-Reply-To: <39B42122.D1E0853D@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8p1cqu+6c7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 992

Here are a few more thoughts on housekeeping:

Be aware of storage requirements when you post files.  E-groups gives 
us 20Mb for storage.  We have used 40% of our quota in less than a 
month.  One of the files (a chat transcript) takes up 4.5Mb by 
itself. 

Avoid double posting long items -- post as a message or in the Files 
area, but not both.

Use a well-compressed JPEG or GIF format for photos and keep the size 
down so that they take up no more than half a 640x480 screen. At an 
average of 20Kb each, we could store a thousand such pictures without 
exceeding our disk quota; however, a single bitmapped graphic "hot 
off the scanner" can easily exceed 1Mb by itself.

Consider linking to other sites for photos and other large files 
rather than including them in the Club Files area. 

-Jim Flanagan
(President, Argus Filch fan club)

"Filth! Mess and muck everywhere! ...Dung, great sizzling dragon 
bogies... frog brains... rat intestines... I've had enough of it..."




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep  5 00:09:46 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:09:46 -0500
Subject: Housekeeping
References: <8p1cqu+6c7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B439CA.A6772C57@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 993

Hi --

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> Here are a few more thoughts on housekeeping:
>
> Be aware of storage requirements when you post files.  E-groups gives
> us 20Mb for storage.  We have used 40% of our quota in less than a
> month.  One of the files (a chat transcript) takes up 4.5Mb by
> itself.

Yikes!!!  We need to eliminate some files it sounds like.  I think we
should not store chat transcripts -- what do others think?

I agree with your other suggestions Jim -- thanks.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep  5 01:18:39 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:18:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fan-fiction
Message-ID: <v02140bbfb5d9fa50edbf@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 994


>
>After you read it I will welcome any constructive critiscism.....
>
>Go to "Hermione- Untitled" at...
>http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=story-read&storyid=68926
>
>Thanks so much in Advance!!!
>
>Scott
>
Scott...I'd like to read it.  But I have no web access at the moment.
Could you email it ot me please?  summers.65 at osu.edu

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        "English history has always fascinated me;  Cromwell,
          Robin Hood, Jack the Ripper..."  --Tracy Lord Haven

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep  5 01:23:23 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:23:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DIGEST QUESTION
Message-ID: <v02140bc0b5d9fb7231f6@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 995

>
>Folks in the know:
>
>I chose digest form because I thought I would only get one a day.  Why,
>OH why, am I getting several?  Why do I have Digest nunbers 37,38,39,40
>and 41 all on Sunday????
>
>I have other E-groups that I REALLY need to get as separate posts and
>I'm trying to geep my total volume down to 50 a day.  Sob.  Help me.
>
>Johanna Laite
>
One digest = 25 messages.  If there are more than 25 messages per day, you
get more than one digest.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        "English history has always fascinated me;  Cromwell,
          Robin Hood, Jack the Ripper..."  --Tracy Lord Haven

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep  5 00:23:20 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:23:20 -0400
Subject: marauder's map - where does it work?
References: <8ovabt+1qjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B43CF8.924B9A44@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 996



Susan McGee wrote:

> The Maurauder's Map is quite significant, isn't it? I just finished
> rereading the Prisoner of Azkaban, and it was hilarious how the map
> insulted Snape.

I was rereading the begining of GoF this afternoon, and realized that the
Marauder's Map must only work while at Hogwarts.
Otherwise, when Harry's scar hurts & he's wondering where dumbledore is &
how to reach him, if the map worked while off campus, so to speak, then he
would be able to look at the map & know at least if he was at Hogwarts at
that moment.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 00:38:25 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:38:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] . . . Peg's Posts
References: <39B42D68.836D8F0E@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39B44081.F243352C@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 997

> PEG -- great posts <snip>  BTW, I know you're a fairly new member & you
> probably don't know many of us that well yet.  But, I feel I should step
> in to Ebony's defense -- from my own judgment of Ebony, I'd say she's
> about the last person who might plagiarize anything.  I don't think she
> had any intention of taking your words & thoughts verbatim & passing
> them off as her own.  I know you said "no offense" & I take you at your
> word on that, but, in all honesty, the remark probably would have
> offended me if it had been directed at me.

Ouch.  Oh, dear, oh dear, I was afraid of that.  You're right, I'm new, but in the time (less than a week) I've been posting here, I've picked up enough of an impression of Ebony to think she wouldn't
plagiarize either--I gather she's involved in academia herself.   I rewrote what I said a couple of times, trying for the right tone.  I'm sure she didn't mean to sound as if she intended to plagiarize
and so I tried to reflect that back to her (I'm sure you intend to use your own ideas, don't you?)  And yet I feel strongly about plagiarism/copyright issues (as someone who has worked in academe and
makes part of my living from writing) and so I felt I ought to say something.  Sometimes, gentle irony just doesn't come across very well on email, does it?  For  any clumsiness in what I said (despite my
best attempts), I do apologize.

(I do hope this will help avoid hard feelings--and anyway, Ebony, if you do write a HP paper, I'd love to see it, ok?)  Thanks for the comment, Penny.

Peg




From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 00:53:20 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin M. Walsh)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: chapter discussions
Message-ID: <20000905005320.29144.qmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 998

Penny, Melanie:
May I please do chapter 16, "The Goblet of Fire,"
along with the discussion of Fleur and Viktor?

~Kaitlin


=====
Thought for the day:
"If there is an Exit sign I always have to go into it because there might be a mattress in there and I can lie down on it and get some rest so I can carry on for Lords sake" 
~Eloise (charge it please and thank you very much)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 01:03:39 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 01:03:39 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3C7B8.6852084F@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p1gpb+s4aa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 999

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Ebony Elizabeth wrote:
> Length is not the issue, m'dear.  It's quality.  Like Dee, I am
> 
> > saving your posts... I will find a way to work HP into an upcoming
> > paper this semester and IMO your ideas are gold.
> >
> 
> Um . . . no offense, but I really have to say this: (speaking as a
> recovering academic who sometimes had to bust students for 
plagiarism) I'm
> sure you'll be using your own ideas, too, hmm?

Peg, I meant the post as a compliment to your thought process, not to 
insinuate that I was going to "steal" any of your work.  I'm an 
English teacher myself not to mention a writer.  No offense taken, 
but *really*.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 01:20:16 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 01:20:16 -0000
Subject: . . . Peg's Posts
In-Reply-To: <39B44081.F243352C@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p1hog+eo9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1000

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Sometimes, gentle irony just doesn't come across very ell on email, 
does it?  For  any clumsiness in what I said (despite my
> best attempts), I do apologize.

No apology needed.  I got this message after I posted a response to 
it (which I hope wasn't offensive either).  

For those of us who are men and women of letters, plagiarism is what 
horse theft was to the settlers of the Old West.  It's a sin I 
despise in my students, in my colleagues, and in fellow writers.  As 
I didn't phrase myself very well in the original post, I can see 
where it could have been misconstrued.

Ah, well, such is the nature of e-mail.  Virtual interaction has its 
pluses as well as its pitfalls.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 01:28:41 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 01:28:41 -0000
Subject: marauder's map - where does it work?
In-Reply-To: <39B43CF8.924B9A44@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8p1i89+hf4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1001

But it's very very possible that Harry just didn't think of that, 
isn't it?
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Susan McGee wrote:
> 
> > The Maurauder's Map is quite significant, isn't it? I just 
finished
> > rereading the Prisoner of Azkaban, and it was hilarious how the 
map
> > insulted Snape.
> 
> I was rereading the begining of GoF this afternoon, and realized 
that the
> Marauder's Map must only work while at Hogwarts.
> Otherwise, when Harry's scar hurts & he's wondering where 
dumbledore is &
> how to reach him, if the map worked while off campus, so to speak, 
then he
> would be able to look at the map & know at least if he was at 
Hogwarts at
> that moment.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 00:51:32 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:51:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Secrets (Long)
References: <200009041623.e84GN3v24263@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <39B44394.8BC2BC55@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1002



Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

>
> Oh, Peg, that was beautiful.  I am glad you chose to wrote this because I have
> been thinking a lot about secrets in HP since the first time I read PoA.
> There is a huge relationship between this and your previous post on loyalty, I
> think.  Not only with Pettigrew betraying Lily and James, but I can think of
> several examples involving Hermione as well.  <snip>

> Another, small example: when Ginny refuses to tell Ron who Hermione is going
> to the Yule Ball with: "I'm not telling you; it's her business."  And another
> example, maybe a stretch, is that both Harry and Hermione clearly realize that
> Ron has feelings for Hermione, but sort of allow him to keep his secret until
> he's ready to tell it.

Yes, more good examples.

> Also, does anyone else have the feeling that Hermione knows, or at least
> suspects, about Neville's parents?

Yes, I have the very strong impression she knows something up with Neville and is
keeping an eye on him, just as she figured out something was going on with Lupin.
It's a testimony to her powers of observation.

> Another thought: what do you make of the fact that Hagrid, though on Our Team,
> doesn't seema as capable of keeping secrets?  Remember, he was the one who
> spilled the beans about Fluffy in PS/SS.  Do you think that will be important
> later too?

Now that hadn't occurred to me, but you're right; good point.  Hagrid has . . .
how to say this . . . sort of a problem with proportion.  He doesn't always read
social cues correctly.  That is why Dumbledore will trust him to some extent (I'm
pretty sure he's being sent as an emissary to the Giants, with Madame Maxine) but
he's not one of the inner core who Dumbledore trusted enought to learn in the
hospital wing about Sirius' true identity at the end of GoF.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 00:58:20 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:58:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secrets (Long)
References: <8p0jkn+7ec9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B4452C.2002D0E1@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1003



Blaise wrote:

>
> An image that I'd like to add here is that of the Mirror of Erised,
> which, in a way, reveals a person's secrets to themselves.

Good insight.  I do think that this is a part of education--self-discovery
as well as discovery about the world around you.  Significant that
self-discovery starts in the very first book.

>  I like that there are people on Our Team who are unpleasant.

That is actually a pretty sophisticated approach on Rowling's part--and I'm
speaking as a writer here.  It is FASCINATING to have a hero (and I presume
Snape at least has the opportunity to be a hero) who is also has an utterly
nasty personality.  Apparently Rowling based Snape on one of her own
teachers, whom she loathed.

>
> Does this mean you think Rita Skeeter is working for Voldemort?  I
> have wondered about this.

No, I didn't mean to suggest that--I was just speaking in a bit too sweeping
of a manner by lumping Rita in with the Other Team.  I think Rita's loyalty
is only to herself--to her rush to the "scoop."

Yet, it is true that those who are only out for themselves can be
manipulated by those who act out of nefarious purposes.

Peg





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 01:47:16 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:47:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: . . . Peg's Posts
References: <8p1hog+eo9t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B450A4.B4EDB7BC@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1004



Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

"Ah, well, such is the nature of e-mail.  Virtual interaction has its pluses
as well as its pitfalls."

Exactly.  We'll just chalk the whole thing up to experience and move on.
Thanks, Ebony.

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 02:12:04 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:12:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ratings, wheeze, LOTR, secrets
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEOICHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <001501c016de$b38718a0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1005

R = under 17 not admitted, in movie talk--which will definitively NOT be the rating for HP!    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Simon Branford 
  To: HPforGU 
  Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 4:37 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ratings, wheeze, LOTR, secrets



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  What is an R rating?

  In the UK, for movies, we have U (universal - suitable for all), PG
  (Parental Guidance - your guess is as good as mine as to what this really
  means), 12 (suitable for 12+), 15 (suitable for 15+), 18 (suitable for 18+)
  and some sort of 18+ rating. I am assuming the R rating is something that
  has been converted from the movie scene as a rough guideline for content of
  fan fiction.

  "As no one seems to have answered this - the COED defines a wheeze (noun
  colloq. British) as  'a clever scheme'."

  So describing it as breathe with a hoarse whistling sound is not required
  here! Do people think the chapter name was done on purpose to make the
  initials www?

  "If you want to get even more technical, the "trilogy" should really be
  considered one long work divided into three volumes, but still separate from
  The Hobbit."

  From the preface of my edition of the novel: The Lord of the Rings is often
  erroneously called a trilogy, when it is in fact a single novel, consisting
  of six books plus appendices, sometimes published in three volumes.

  Earlier today Peg posted a long message about secrets. Quite a few people
  replied to this. If you do reply to messages such as this (which are quite
  long), especially if you just wish to say it was amazing or that you agree
  with the points raised, then do not send the entire original post back
  again.

  "Hermione does not show Dumbledore's tact in letting Remus reveal his own
  secrets. I wonder whether he would have said anything if she hadn't forced
  his hand."

  Yes I think he would have done so. I got he impression that when Lupin
  arrived he was going to make sure everything was explained to Harry before
  any action was taken against Peter. To do this Lupin would have been forced
  to reveal his secret.
  In Hermione's reaction we were seeing a typical wizard reaction to a
  werewolf (cf Ron's reaction to Lupin in response to this declaration). I got
  the impression that she blurted it out because she thinks it explains
  Lupin's actions.

  "When he hits upon Sirius as the best person to confide in, he is
  relieved--but then he becomes angry at himself and tries to "take the secret
  back" (my scar really didn't hurt) when Sirius takes Harry's news seriously
  and reacts as a parent would, by coming north."

  I was amazed at how quickly Harry was prepared to accept Sirius into his
  life. By Sirius' own admission he was responsible for the deaths of James
  and Lily. Will we be seeing a similar forgiveness shown by Cho? Harry blames
  himself for this death. If I were forced to make a choice then I would pick
  Cho to be Harry's girl (well there is of course my other idea - yahoo
  message: 5445)

  Simon




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From astrothena at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 02:25:38 2000
From: astrothena at yahoo.com (Belinda Susan Rodrigues)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Secrets
Message-ID: <20000905022538.3555.qmail@web207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1006


Very interesting ideas about secrets, Peg. I've also
paid a lot of attention to Harry's ability to trust
other people. My parents weren't exactly the Dursleys
but I still grew up in rather rough circumstances and
as a adult, I'm going through the same process that
Harry does in learning how to trust others. To anyone
else, it would have been perfectly acceptable Book 2
to mention to Dumbledore, "You know, I'm hearing
voices and it's starting to freak me out." But Harry
isn't quite sure who he can trust. Again, Harry is
very careful to keep his identity to himself when he
meets Draco at Madam Malkin's, most likely because
he's not sure if he can trust him.

But as Harry learns to trust, he's dealt a pretty
strong blow when he places his trust in Mad Eye Moody
only to learn that he's an imposter. Based on my own
behavior, I'd expect to see Harry withdraw back into
his own secrets in the next book and be less willing
to trust... which would be sad.

Thena


=====
Quote of the Day from #alt-mmpr: 
<Aneht> what does Pikachu evolve into anyway?
<Mitsou> it evolves into a dust collector in someones 
closet of old fads
More Crazy Quotes at http://www.geocities.com/astrothena/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep  5 03:04:08 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 03:04:08 -0000
Subject: Question regarding Secrets
In-Reply-To: <8p14v8+g6ot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p1nr8+208d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1007

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> What we have to remember is that Harry does not come from a 
> background where trusting adults comes easily.  It's stay in the 
> background, be quiet, don't ask questions. Do it it on your own.
>  Harry has come a long way in trusting adults since the 1st book now
> that he has good adult role models with Dubledore, McGonagall, the 
> Weasley parents, Sirius, and Lupin.  Yes, he still has a tendency 
>to keep things from them. Is this because of 10 years of never being 
> believed about anything he says, or simply an adolescent keeping his
> own counsel? 

Maybe I'm not seeing the symptoms of his life with the Dursleys.  'Do 
it on your own' seems to be the 'lone hero' quality in Harry.  Yes, 
he does seem to have made some progress in trusting adults...

> And in GoF he *does* go to trustworthy adults when he is worried -- 
> he wrote Sirius regarding his scar pain and ran to  Dumbledore when 
> he and Krum found Mr. Crouch wandering the Hogwarts grounds. 

I was really thinking of Dumble specifically.  There's always a scene 
where Dum asks Harry if there's something he'd like to tell him.  
And, finding Crouch Sr. was really a different circumstance than not 
wanting to tell Dum he can talk to snakes or saw a grim or whatever...

> Yeah, after writing Sirius he had doubts "Was I totally paranoid or 
>what?"  But hasn't everyone here done the same thing?  Appearing the 
>paranoid fool is a natural fear.

Well, certainly, he doesn't want to appear paranoid, a fool, a 
hypochondriac, whatever.  But, I'm not suggesting he tell everyone, 
just Dumble.  He's learned by now that Dumble won't treat him like a 
fool.  He has respect for Harry, doesn't patronize him.

> Also there still many adults in positions of authority in his new 
>world that *never* believe him--Snape, Fudge.

Well, Snape, that's the last person who's made himself out to be 
someone Harry can trust, next to Vold, wouldn't you say?  And, Fudge--
he's a whole new can of worms, now.  These people haven't shown 
themselves to be worthy of Harry's trust like Dumble has.

> Harry doesn't have a good track record with trust, outside of Ron 
>and Hermione.  I think in the future he will be more willing to go 
>to adults in time of need.

True.  R & H have proven themselves as true friends to Harry, even 
with the spats.  I do think he'll come around with Dumble in the next 
books, otherwise it wouldn't make sense. 

> He has finally realized the enormity of Voldemort's malevolence, 
>having seen it firsthand (since he has no easily recalled memories 
>of the first run-in, I'm not counting it) and knows he cannot face 
>what may come alone.  He will need to trust others outside of his 
>close circle of friends.
> 
> Trina

Yes.  And, he may not remember what happened the first time, but he's 
had to live with the repercussions-- life with the Dursleys, who hate 
him, not with his parents who love him.  He will have to trust others 
(adults) now, like he hasn't before.  I'm looking forward to it.  
Will he be part of a team, or will he still try to do it all 
himself?  Of course, he'll remain the 'hero', but he needs to use his 
team.

Kelley  




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Sep  5 03:15:31 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 04:15:31 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Housekeeping (long response)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000905031531.0071fff8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1008

Re: Penny's Housekeeping Post

A few comments...

***

I agree with everything Penny said about relevance of subject headings and
snipping irrelevant material from the original posts.  It took me a while to
decide on the neatest way to present a reply to a message, and, frankly, I'm
still working on that one <g>.  It's so much easier for messages to look
cluttered now we have a reply feature which presents the original post in
its entirety, so it's worth thinking about readability.   

Penny, I'm glad you mentioned combining messages, as Simon did, because you
posted something requesting exactly the opposite in the old Yahoo club (in
relation to relevance of headings, I think).  Here, it makes more sense to
combine, but only if the poster takes the trouble to list all the topics
covered in the post, not fogetting the limited length of the heading field.

Re: that focaccia thread.  I could see that discussion veering off-topic
once we were into 'where is Durmstrang?'  I could kick myself for posting a
lengthy piece on Durmstrang under 'focaccia' (when I'd meant to change the
title before hitting 'send') and *then* cluttering up your e-mail boxes with
another message, to redirect the topic.  And *now*, here's this ramble about
my own failings - doh! I'm digging my own grave aren't I?

One point to note is that when posting the e-mail system, you don't get that
'are you sure you want to post this crap?' moment, whereas online, there's a
prompt for edits which double checks.  Obviously, it's sensible to check
e-mails before sending them (famous last words), but still, it's useful to
have that external voice saying 'are you sure?'

For a number of reasons I've posted less since we moved house.  One reason
for that is that I am now receiving messages by e-mail and, concurring with
Penny's comment, find the sheer volume each day a bit much.  I don't have
the time to read them all properly, and that tends to affect what I might
say in return.  I don't want to add to the logjam myself and I think this
has put a psychological block on what, and when, I post.  Despite the
facilities here, I think I'm less keen on eGroups. It's odd, because some
people who were very quiet in the Yahoo club have suddenly found a voice here.  

Hmmm.  I wonder who has the berposter crown now?  Dee - I'd get your
acceptance speech ready, if I were you ;)

Neil (thinks Peg Kerr's essay posts are great too, and feels safe sneaking a
"me too!" in here)

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 03:41:28 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:41:28 -0400
Subject: religion wicca(n)
References: <967904665.716@egroups.com> <39B42B28.C6D01711@hal-pc.org>
Message-ID: <00ac01c016eb$2ce7faa0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1009

"Along the lines of religion, this was probably discussed by those on the
list way back, it is interesting to me to note that neither religion nor
any form of church has  been even hinted at to my knowledge.  If there
was a good discussion of this on earlier E-mails (more than the last
couple of weeks) point me to which Month or which list and I'll read
that first.  I'm on ALL the adult HP lists, I think but just starting to
catch up with current posts.

Johanna Laite"

 
      Wicca(n)
     219; 220; 221; 222; 223; 224; 225; 226; 227 
     



In the 0-350 postings which I dissected for whoever is doing the facts (and aside, Penny, I think I will take you up on that offer, if it's still open--my topics are listed as Topics 0-350), I ran across a rather delightful discussion on Wiccanism.  The posts are those above:  219-27.  If Simon would be so kind as to post that url for the completed archive again, or if the researcher wants to visit HP4GU on yahoo, there's the numbers.... 

Btw, for those "newer" comers, I am a wiccan.

:)
BB
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 03:45:23 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:45:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Housekeeping
References: <8p1cqu+6c7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c016eb$bb303c00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1010

Jim, about "One of the files (a chat transcript) takes up 4.5Mb by 
itself", feel free to delete that post if you can, "founders"  I didn't know about the storage part, so I didn't think.  I uploaded the same thing as a file, so it's there actually twice (actually both chats are), and that's just a bit extra.

Thanks Penny and Melanie ahead of time!

Dee






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 04:11:24 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 04:11:24 -0000
Subject: You know you're from Ohio if... (Aside humour...)
Message-ID: <8p1rpc+1hbh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1011

You know you're from Ohio if...

1.  "Vacation" means spending a day at Cedar Point or King's Island.
2.  You measure distance in minutes.
3.  Down south to you means Kentucky.
4.  Your school classes were canceled because of cold.
5.  Your school classes were canceled because of heat.
6.  You've ridden the school bus for an hour each way.
7.  You've ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day.
8.  You know what's knee-high by the Fourth of July.
9.  You end your sentences with an unnecessary preposition. Example: 
Where's my coat at?
10. You install security lights on your house and garage and leave 
both unlocked.
11. You think of the major four food groups as beef, pork, beer, and
Jell-O salad with marshmallows.
12. You carry jumper cables in your car.
13. You know what pop is.
14. You design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit.
15. Driving is better in the winter because the potholes are filled 
with snow.
16. You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie.
17. The local paper covers national and international headlines on one
page but requires 6 pages for sports.
18. You think that deer season is a national holiday.
19. You know which leaves make good toilet paper.
20. You thought that the Michael Stanley Band was the most popular 
band in the country.
21. You find -20 degrees F "a little chilly".
22. You know all 4 seasons: Almost Winter, Winter, Still Winter, and 
Construction.
23. You know if another Ohioian is from southern, middle or northern 
Ohio as soon as they open their mouth.
24. You can spell words like Cuyahoga and Tuscarawas.
25. You actually get these jokes and forward them to all your Ohio 
friends. 





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep  5 05:16:53 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:16:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] You know you're from Ohio if... (Aside humour...)
Message-ID: <v02140bc6b5da32150801@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1012


Are you from Ohio, Denise?  I live in Columbus.

Frankly, these sound more like You Know You're from Wisconsin, which I am.
We don't really get horrible winters here, not like the ones I'm used to,
anyway.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        "Are there any other comic-book trashy-romance-novel
                clich?s you'd care to invoke at this time?"  --Harry Potter

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 04:29:41 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:29:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Housekeeping 
References: <1.5.4.32.20000905031531.0071fff8@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <017f01c016f1$e96c6b60$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1013

(Btw, to erase the old message, just hit Shift-control-end-delete, lol.  Works like a charm, and reduces those paragraph after paragraph.  I started using it this week, lol!)


Hmmm.  I wonder who has the ?berposter crown now?  Dee - I'd get your
acceptance speech ready, if I were you ;)
Thanks Neil.  I will try to tone down the one-liners, and make a paragraph at least out of the posts I answer, if that helps?  I don't want folks getting mad at me; messing up about the chats is bad enough!! LOL!

:)
Dee
@--'---


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 04:58:45 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:58:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OT) Housekeeping - short answer
Message-ID: <52.4051dc.26e5d785@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1014

Hi All,

In a message dated 9/4/2000 9:15:12 PM CST, neilward at dircon.co.uk writes:

<< Despite the facilities here, I think I'm less keen on eGroups. It's odd, 
because some people who were very quiet in the Yahoo club have suddenly found 
a voice here.    >>
Speaking only for myself - in my case I never posted on yahoo and do 
occasionally post to this list on egroups.  The difference is that I am 
already used to answering mails from egroups mailing lists.  Also, my home 
computer has developed some "issues" and will no longer use the internet, so 
I haven't been able to get to the yahoo site for quite a while, and thus, I 
was unable to reply to the yahoo club emails.

Love & Light,
Elizabeth



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 04:57:32 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:57:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ohio One liner, sorry folks!.. (Aside humour...)
References: <v02140bc6b5da32150801@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <01c701c016f5$cfe71380$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1015


  Are you from Ohio, Denise?  I live in Columbus.

  Frankly, these sound more like You Know You're from Wisconsin, which I am.
  We don't really get horrible winters here, not like the ones I'm used to,
  anyway.

  Lori    





  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

  Yes!  Canton Ohio.  Went to Akron for awhile, and moved back in 98.  It's a nice place, in a sorta mayberry way... LOL.



  Sorry folks for the one liner!

  Dee





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 06:50:09 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:50:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chat transcripts: Possible alternative
Message-ID: <20000905065009.10876.qmail@web4803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1016


--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Jim Flanagan wrote:
> 
> > Here are a few more thoughts on housekeeping:
> >
> > Be aware of storage requirements when you post files. 
> E-groups gives
> > us 20Mb for storage.  We have used 40% of our quota in less
> than a
> > month.  One of the files (a chat transcript) takes up 4.5Mb
> by
> > itself.
> 
> Yikes!!!  We need to eliminate some files it sounds like.  I
> think we
> should not store chat transcripts -- what do others think?
> 


I agree, only because they'll add up quickly.  I do have a
couple of possible alternatives, however.

1)  Store them, but delete each after a month

2) Set up a new e-group for those who are interested in the
transcripts.  It can be set up as a "newletter" group, instead
of a "discussion" one.  That is, where only the moderator can
post.  Each week, Dee can send the chat transcript to those on
that list.  Or, if you're not comfortable with it, Dee, e-mail
me those transcripts privately, and I can do it.

Thoughts, anyone?

Melanie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 06:52:57 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:52:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] chapter discussions
Message-ID: <20000905065257.11615.qmail@web4805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1017


--- "Kaitlin M. Walsh" <ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Penny, Melanie:
> May I please do chapter 16, "The Goblet of Fire,"
> along with the discussion of Fleur and Viktor?
> 
> ~Kaitlin


Absolutely.  I'll add you to the page right now, while I'm
thinking about it.

Melanie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Sep  5 07:21:56 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 07:21:56 -0000
Subject: Old Thread (was: religion wicca(n)) Plus Fanfic 
In-Reply-To: <00ac01c016eb$2ce7faa0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8p26uk+9991@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1018

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> In the 0-350 postings which I dissected (snip) I ran across a 
> rather delightful discussion on Wiccanism.  The posts are those 
> above:  219-27.  If Simon would be so kind as to post that url for
> the completed archive again, or if the researcher wants to visit
> HP4GU on yahoo, there's the numbers.... 

Saturday, Sunday, and today I have visited our old home on Yahoo. 
The home page is there, and the chat room is there, but any attempt 
to get at the messages, archived or from the latest five on the home 
page, gets an error message about this club not existing. Was there 
some saintly person working on a project to convert our old Yahoo 
message archive to e-groups? Not that I like e-groups, but at least 
it still exists so far!!!

As a person who reads and replies to posts on the website (and I 
never had any problem quoted the part I was replying to when we were 
on Yahoo), in order to combine topics in one post as Penny just 
requested (in another group, someone was sulking about that because 
they wanted their e-mail client to tell them which thread was which), 
I am experimenting with having two browser windows open at the same 
time, one for the REPLY window of one post, the other for viewing 
another post so I can copy & paste the part I want to reply to.

In the post most excellently numbered 969, Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
> I have a way that I "sniff" out a story on fanfiction.net before
> deciding to invest time reading it.  I just scroll rapidly through
> the file.  If it  looks like nothing but a series of one-sentence
> statements by the characters, it's pretty safe to give it a miss.

In that case, you are not going to like the fic that I am most likely 
to finish (all I need now is a great literary sentence or two of 
foreshadowing the events of the novels, and the tedious mechanics of 
closing it). In fact, I find the 'So-and-so said:' or 'stated' or 
'screeched', etc, to be very boring, and just want to write the 
words I hear them saying. 

Btw, it was someone else in chat who was writing about Sirius as 
Heathcliff: I am merely writing about Sirius as a teen-ager.









From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue Sep  5 12:06:56 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:06:56 -0000
Subject: Chat transcripts: Possible alternative
In-Reply-To: <20000905065009.10876.qmail@web4803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8p2nl0+gpmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1019

I like the idea of having someone responsible for maintaining chat 
transcripts and other extra-large files, possibly on a moderated e-
group set up for that purpose.  Note that e-mailing large transcript 
files could be a problem for some people.  

Personally, I found the 4.5Mb transcript very difficult to handle.  
It took forever to download and yet more time for Word to open it.  I 
don't know what formats Cheeta is capable of -- plain ASCII would 
reduce storage, but the text colors would be lost. Is there an option 
to preserve the colors, but without all the graphics?

-Jim Flanagan

> > Yikes!!!  We need to eliminate some files it sounds like.  I
> > think we
> > should not store chat transcripts -- what do others think?
> > 
> 
> 
> I agree, only because they'll add up quickly.  I do have a
> couple of possible alternatives, however.
> 
> 1)  Store them, but delete each after a month
> 
> 2) Set up a new e-group for those who are interested in the
> transcripts.  It can be set up as a "newletter" group, instead
> of a "discussion" one.  That is, where only the moderator can
> post.  Each week, Dee can send the chat transcript to those on
> that list.  Or, if you're not comfortable with it, Dee, e-mail
> me those transcripts privately, and I can do it.





From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 12:26:24 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 07:26:24 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore and the Rat, Map; also: WWII parallel
References: <968079537.14158@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B4E66F.3462E42A@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1020

This is in response to two different people's comments:

> But, I want to agree, Fred and George just did not notice "Peter 
> Pettigrew" among hundreds of names. The name didn't have the 
> significance to them that it did to Lupin, Sirius, etc. 

Except we know that at some point RON had been told by his dad about
Pettigrew, because the day after Harry learns in 3 Broomsticks about
Pettigrew and Sirius (at least the known version) it is Ron who tells
Harry that all Pettigrew's mother got was the Order of Merlin and the finger.


> When I read in Dumbledore's short bio in SS that he "defeated the 
> dark wizard Grindlewold in 1945" .... I 
> immediately thought of the parallel event happening in the Muggle 
> world that same year--the defeat of Hitler.  Is it too much of a 
> conclusion to jump to that WWII might have spilled over into the 
> wizard world?  Perhaps Grindlewold [sp?] was aiding Hitler somehow--
> didn't I hear somwhere that Hitler was very interested in the 
> supernatural?.....  But at the very least, my idea would make an interesting 
> starting point for a fanfic.

Uhm - if anybody else is doing this, fine, but I actually have three and
a half chapters of this done (time to confess that, for the first time
in years, I am inspired to try my hand at a bit of fan fiction).  I
spent part of this weekend reading _The Occult History of the Third
Reich_.  I'm waiting to get more done and have someone do a proofread &
sanity check for e before i sent it to anyone else.

-Brooks



From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 12:39:44 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 07:39:44 -0500
Subject: semi-OT - Movie Ratings
References: <968118208.19864@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B4E98F.CA020186@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1021

The ORIGINAL US movie rating scheme when introduced was:

G - General Audiences
M- Mature Audiences
R- Restricted - non-one under 18 unless accompanied by parent or guardian
X- No one under 18 admitted at all.
   True pornography quickly adopted an unofficial "Triple X" rating.  A
few serious movies with heavy sexual content in their plots were also
given X ratings;_Midnight Cowboy_ and _Last Tango in Paris_ being
examples (At least the former has been re-released re-rated 'R' with no
edits, indicating how standads have relaxd in recent years)

Note this made an easy set of letters, GMRX, which could easily be a
Pontiac brand autombile. :-)

Within only a few years of the creation of the systems, M was felt to be
unclear, and PG for "Parental Guidance Suggested" was substituted. 
_Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom_ was given a PG rating but was
felt to be really intense for pre-teens and was a key to splitting the
PG rating into PG and PG-13 which is never enforced as a restriction in
the theater that I have seen, only as a piece of information for parents.

Finally, there was pressure for some 'serious and artisitic but very
sexual and very much rude language without having explicit sex' to get
something other than an X rating.  X was a box office 'kiss of death' as
many theaters would, as a matter of policy, never show an 'X'.  So the
NC-17  - No Children under 17 - rating was created.

So now the system is
G / PG / PG-13 / R / NC-17 / X / (XXX unofficial)

Easy, right?  Yeah sure.

-Brooks



From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep  5 15:55:10 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:55:10 -0500
Subject: Archives Available
Message-ID: <39B5175E.A3C10936@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1022

Hi --

Just wanted to announce that Paul (Smitster) has completed the task of
transferring all the old Yahoo Club messages (copies that is) to an
egroups Archive.  You can still access the Yahoo Club if you were a
member, but, of course, Yahoo had & has no search function.  To answer
Rita's question about the old Club -- I didn't have any trouble
accessing the messages this morning when I checked.  I posted yet
another "Reminder -- We've Moved" message without incident also.
Strangely, it seems that the Yahoo Club is still getting new members
(even though noone is posting much).  Why would you join a Club where
the Club description leads off with "This Club has moved to egroups
(URL)"?

Anyway, we will now be able to search our old messages, using the
egroups search feature.  My many many thanks to Paul for doing this.
Here's the URL --

http://www.egroups.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

You will need to join as a Member in order to view the Messages
Archive.  The group is set up so that its only function is to allow
members to view & search Messages.  You cannot post messages to this
group.  You cannot download files, chat or anything else.  But, it will
be a very handy tool & I do need to figure out how to best advertise it
on our new homepage.

Penny




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 15:52:12 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:52:12 -0000
Subject: Fanfic (again)
Message-ID: <8p34rc+hsdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1023

I know Rita wanted this URL, and perhaps there are some other people 
who want something to read.  This link will take you to morrigan's 
fanfic.  It's rather different from anything else I've seen 
recommended here - it's highly symbolic in places, it reads almost 
like poetry in others, it's hilarious and touching and I enjoy it 
immensely.  Here's the link:    

http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-
AuthorProfile&UserID=6363

Of the fics there, I most strongly recommend 'The Other Side,' 'Dream 
On' and 'Draco's Days of Darkness' (that last one is especially for 
all the R/H people!).

Happy reading, and to anyone out there who's interested, I've put up 
chapter 5 of 'A Second Chance'!  Comments, as always, are very 
welcome.    

~Blaise.  

    




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 15:55:32 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:55:32 +0100
Subject: Fanfic (again) with a working link
Message-ID: <OE26z5b6KZmcK8r6beU000013a2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1024

That link didn't seem to work properly.  Let me try again:  

http://blue.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=6363

Hopefully that link will take you to morrigan's profile.  

~Blaise.  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep  5 16:16:36 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 11:16:36 -0500
Subject: FAQs Update
Message-ID: <39B51C64.A38A6375@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1025

Hi:

I wanted to keep everyone in the loop (this might be new information to
some of our new members also).  We are in the process of creating a set
of about 60 "FAQs" (Frequently Asked Questions).  These FAQs will deal
with substantive recurring themes or topics that the group has discussed
at various points.  Examples: Animal Characters, Sirius Black, Book
Banning, Casting, Fanfiction, Hogwarts, Inconsistencies & Mysteries:
each of the 4 books, Stouffer Lawsuit, Mythology & Magical Creatures,
Other Recommended Reading, Predictions: Book 5, Racial Diversity & HP,
Religion & HP, Potential Romance Pairings, Wizarding World: Government,
Wizarding World: Economy, etc.  This is just a sampling.  All major
characters will have a FAQ.

We have now all but completed the daunting task of categorizing all 8000
Yahoo messages.  We had about 15 people who helped with this task.  Now
our FAQs Committee (me, Melanie, Neil, Simon, Heidi, Carole & Ebony) is
getting down to work on these FAQs.  They will hopefully be largely
completed & available for viewing by sometime in October.  We will then
probably be soliciting some help with keeping them current so keep that
in mind for later.

So, Johanna's question about Religion & HP -- you can search the Message
Archives for now, but at some point in about a month, you'll be able to
go to that particular topical FAQ and read what's been discussed so far.

Penny




From kippesp at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 16:30:51 2000
From: kippesp at yahoo.com (Paul Kippes)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Off loaded storage
Message-ID: <20000905163051.23262.qmail@web2106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1026

--- Jim Flanagan <jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> I like the idea of having someone responsible for
> maintaining chat 
> transcripts and other extra-large files, possibly on
> a moderated e-
> group set up for that purpose.  Note that e-mailing
> large transcript 
> files could be a problem for some people.  

It sounds like we basically need a large file
repository.  The 20 MB that eGroups provides probably
won't serve our needs while still being able to share
what we want to share.  (This is mainly photos and
chat transcripts.  Love the London pictures, BTW.)

Despite their inconsistent web page, I-Drive
(http://www.idrive.com) says that they provide
unlimited space.  (Which is what we probably need.)  I
haven't used it to check the speed but this is what I
do know:
 - Unlimited space (A must!)
 - Acts like a drive (with client software)
 - Doesn't require client software (won't act like a
drive)
 - Simple, web interface (A must)
 - Sharing allowed (what we need)
 - Streaming of MP3s (for all those interviews)

If one of our ranks knows about this service or
similar services, please let us know.  But I can also
look into it to see if it is easy to use (or even fits
our needs).  (I have used freedrive, but find it slow
and limited to 50 MB or so.)

If we choose to go this route, we should probably do
as Melanie alluded to and have single access (or
limited access).  Otherwise, we could find deleted
things caused by other
voldermort-will-kill-harry-potter people.

Also, we probably have people using Mac or other
non-IBM computers, so file formats should be limited
to using transportable types.  Which means I may have
to forgo .ZIP/.EXE files (poo!).

I think that's enough for this off-topic post.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From kippesp at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  5 16:40:22 2000
From: kippesp at yahoo.com (Paul Kippes)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Archives Available
Message-ID: <20000905164022.4631.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1027

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net>
wrote:
> You will need to join as a Member in order to view
> the Messages
> Archive.  The group is set up so that its only
> function is to allow
> members to view & search Messages.  You cannot post
> messages to this
> group.  You cannot download files, chat or anything
> else.  But, it will
> be a very handy tool & I do need to figure out how
> to best advertise it
> on our new homepage.

I neglected to inform Penny that I've placed the files
located on the Xoom.com site in the Files section of
our HPforGrownups-Archive eGroup which members can
grab.  The available file formats are .EXE & .ZIP
(both compressed archives) and .TXT.

The Xoom.com site is now no longer needed and will
soon be discontinued.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep  5 17:01:51 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:01:51 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Archives Available
In-Reply-To: <20000905164022.4631.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEEACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1028

Thanks so much for all the hard work that went into saving, cleaning up, and
uploading these files for us.  Now I have the files on my hard drive and can
use Windows "Find Files" feature and search the messages offline with a snap
of the finger.  Great job!



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kippes [mailto:kippesp at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:40 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Archives Available


--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net>
wrote:
> You will need to join as a Member in order to view
> the Messages
> Archive.  The group is set up so that its only
> function is to allow
> members to view & search Messages.  You cannot post
> messages to this
> group.  You cannot download files, chat or anything
> else.  But, it will
> be a very handy tool & I do need to figure out how
> to best advertise it
> on our new homepage.

I neglected to inform Penny that I've placed the files
located on the Xoom.com site in the Files section of
our HPforGrownups-Archive eGroup which members can
grab.  The available file formats are .EXE & .ZIP
(both compressed archives) and .TXT.

The Xoom.com site is now no longer needed and will
soon be discontinued.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  5 18:01:59 2000
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:01:59 -0400
Subject: Ratings
Message-ID: <003701c01763$64558020$0100000a@joywelan>

No: HPFGUIDX 1029

Simon wrote:
What is an R rating?

Technically, it means people under 17 aren't admitted.  But, I just turned
17, and have been able to get into R-rated movies with my friends for years
without anyone raising an eyebrow.  So, it basically means that there are
significant sexual themes and/or violence.

~Joy~




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 18:27:03 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:27:03 -0000
Subject: Off loaded storage
In-Reply-To: <20000905163051.23262.qmail@web2106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8p3dtn+a646@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1030

-
> 
> Also, we probably have people using Mac or other
> non-IBM computers, so file formats should be limited
> to using transportable types.  Which means I may have
> to forgo .ZIP/.EXE files (poo!).

.zip files are OK for Mac and Linux/Unix.  There are many Mac 
translators of .zip files, including some zip only applications, 
Stuffit Expander (which usually came with the system), and MacLink 
Plus, the most popular file translators/decompressor.  If a Mac user 
has Maclink Plus, he/she can translate practically any word
processing 
document to any other format, including one PC format to another 
format.  There are likewise one or two UNIX/Linux 
translater/decompressors I have seen.

.exe, including self-extracting zips, are not universally OK.  But 
plain .zip files should work just fine, if you want to save space on 
archives.

As for file formats, text or .rtf format can be read by practically 
any machine of any flavor or religious persuasion.

-Brooks





From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep  5 18:55:05 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:55:05 -0500
Subject: Chapter & Character Discussions
Message-ID: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1031

Hi:

Just a quick reminder of upcoming assignments re: our ongoing Chapter &
Character Discussions --

This week -- Heidi -- Chapter 9 -- Mr. Filch & Mrs. Norris
Next week -- Mike Gray --- Chapter 10 -- Resident Ghosts
Week after -- Anna -- Chapter 11 -- Minor Professors
Then -- Dennis & Diann -- Chapter 12 -- Dursleys

There are still some chapter & character discussions open.  You can see
what's still available by looking at:

http://www.geocities.com/ravenclawlady/discussion.html

For those who don't know what's involved, it's really just a matter of
(a) summarizing the relevant chapter & raising a few questions, comments
or discussion points, and (b) in a separate email, doing a brief
character sketch, drawing from all 4 books.  Jen Piersol did Chapter 8 &
Ludo Bagman last week -- if you check the Message Archives, you'll see a
good example of what we're striving to do.

Penny




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 19:29:57 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:29:57 -0000
Subject: WWII parallel and Ratings
In-Reply-To: <39B4E66F.3462E42A@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8p3hjl+6j57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1032

> > When I read in Dumbledore's short bio in SS that he "defeated the 
> > dark wizard Grindlewold in 1945" .... I 
> > immediately thought of the parallel event happening in the Muggle 
> > world that same year--the defeat of Hitler.  Is it too much of a 
> > conclusion to jump to that WWII might have spilled over into the 
> > wizard world?  Perhaps Grindlewold [sp?] was aiding Hitler 
somehow--
> > didn't I hear somwhere that Hitler was very interested in the 
> > supernatural?.....  But at the very least, my idea would make an 
interesting 
> > starting point for a fanfic.
> 
> Uhm - if anybody else is doing this, fine, but I actually have 
three and
> a half chapters of this done (time to confess that, for the first 
time
> in years, I am inspired to try my hand at a bit of fan fiction).  I
> spent part of this weekend reading _The Occult History of the Third
> Reich_.  I'm waiting to get more done and have someone do a 
proofread &
> sanity check for e before i sent it to anyone else.
> 
> -Brooks

I wasn't actually planning to write any kind of fanfic about this (I 
am too lazy and don't have enough time), but I'm very interested to 
see what you are doing with the premise, Brooks.  Good luck.
Brooks also seems to have desbribed the ratings system in a nutshell; 
it is an important point that children under 17 *can* see an R rated 
movie if their parents choose to bring them; it is somewhat 
distressing to see six year olds watching something like a Lethal 
Weapon movie.  As for what Joy says about being able to easily get 
into R movies when she was under 17, this really depends on the 
whether the theater goes to the trouble of "carding" the kids.  I 
look old enough that I wasn't carded after I turned 16, but I hear 
they have been cracking down more in my area in the last year or so.





From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 21:49:15 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:49:15 -0000
Subject: Grindlewald, WWII parallel 
In-Reply-To: <8p3hjl+6j57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p3por+6muv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1033

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 

> > > dark wizard Grindlewold in 1945" .... 

By the way, Grindlewald turns out to be a town in Switzerland, near 
the Eiger.....

-Brooks





From nick at nicmit.com  Tue Sep  5 22:10:27 2000
From: nick at nicmit.com (Rainbow Play Systems)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:10:27 +0100
Subject: Ratings
Message-ID: <006001c01786$1e06ea00$73977ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1034

>Simon wrote:
>What is an R rating?

For us Brits... incase Joy's message did not make it clear enough, the US
movie rating R is very similar to our 18 rating.

For those interested here are some comparisons between the US and UK
ratings:

US: G     UK: U
US: PG    UK: PG
US: PG-13   UK: PG-12 / 15   (US don't seem to have something which compares
with the UK 15 rating)
US: R    UK: 18


And Canada has things slightly different again...   Pokemon The First Movie
for example, is G in the US, and PG in Canada.   Anyone in Canada know how
the canadian system matches with the above?   Seems like it may vary
depending what part of Canada you are in.

Links:
www.bbfc.co.uk - British Board of Film Classification
http://www.media-awareness.ca/eng/indus/filmvid/film1.htm - Details on
Canadian Film Classification
Sorry, can't find a link to any info on the US system.


And just to get this back on topic... what classification do you think the
Harry Potter movie should have?   Should it be G/U, PG or PG-13  (or
something higher!) ?

Nick




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 22:21:32 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:21:32 -0000
Subject: Ratings
In-Reply-To: <006001c01786$1e06ea00$73977ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8p3rlc+e27i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1035

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rainbow Play Systems" <nick at n...> 
wrote:
 
> And Canada has things slightly different again...   Pokemon The 
First Movie
> for example, is G in the US, and PG in Canada.   

Because each country's appropriate board assigns the ratings for that 
country, most likely.


> 
> And just to get this back on topic... what classification do you 
think the
> Harry Potter movie should have?   Should it be G/U, PG or PG-13  (or
> something higher!) ?


In US terms PG or PG-13, I'd bet ("Mild violence", <- rating would 
depend on degree - probably no offensive language)  And note the 
violence would be along the lines of the chesspiece knocking out Ron, 
and the final fight between Harry and Quirrel/Voldy.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep  5 22:27:27 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:27:27 -0000
Subject: LOTR & WWII
Message-ID: <8p3s0f+cp8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1036

Can't find the message that applies to this so posting it direct 
rather than as a reply.  LOTR is clearly not a retelling of WWII, and 
Tolkien said as much,  but I believe he also admitted that some
scenes in it were influenced by WWII experiences/events - not of the 
grand sweep of the war, but of things he experienced on the home 
front.  Things so influenced included descriptions of Mordor, and the 
chapter "The Scouring of the Shire".

-Brooks




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 22:56:12 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:56:12 -0000
Subject: Housekeeping
In-Reply-To: <39B42122.D1E0853D@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8p3tmc+eusm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1037

I just want to address another housekeeping matter.  Others may not 
agree, but given the overwhelming volume of messages here I think we 
should also try to cut back on the number of off-topic posts.  There 
have been way too many OT (although, admittedly, sometimes 
interesting) posts lately.  (I will add right here that I realize 
that I have been guilty of this sin on occasion, as I have also been 
guilty of not checking to see if my subject heading is accurate, and 
I sincerely repent and swear to turn over a new leaf.)  

Examples: Lori s quest to find out what the average Brit knows about 
Joseph McCarthy so that she can work it into a fanfic is reasonable, 
but diatribes about how McCarthy was really right about communism are 
IMHO not only off the wall but WAY off topic.  Posts about how 
an HP anime movie would be cool are appropriate, posts about anime 
movies that HP fans might like are also I think appropriate, posts 
about how your favorite anime feature is now out on videotape and 
which artists you like best are (again only IMO) not appropriate.  
And completely OT posts that do things like make fun of Ohio, while 
funny, are, well.....ok, this is a hard one because I tend to let 
people get away with anything as long as it is funny, but maybe we 
could all just try to be relevant.  Just so that we dont all get 
buried under an avalanche.  OK, go ahead and disagree with me.  Thats 
what Im here for.

- Joywitch




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep  5 23:47:45 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:47:45 -0500
Subject: Off-Topic Posts -- Housekeeping
References: <8p3tmc+eusm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B58621.E8C0CD13@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1038

Hi --

Joywitch wrote:

I am breaking housekeeping rule # 1 by mainly writing to say that I
agree completely with Joywitch's thoughts on off-topic posts.  Most of
us would be indulgently forgiving of off-topic posts if this were a
group with low or moderate activity.  It is not.  It is very very
active, and many of us are fighting to keep up (although today's been
rather slow I must say).

Joy's examples are great.  The main thing to do is use good judgment.
Does your post relate in some way to HP (preferably a reasonably
relevant relation can be made to the books or the movie or the
merchandise or other recommended reading or fanfic)?  If it's a stretch
at best, I'd prefer you err on the side of not sharing it with us.
Again, when things are only moderately on topic -- please don't veer
wildly off-topic with your response (Joy's example of the McCarthy posts
is a good one.  Lori's original question was perfectly fine -- several
of the responses toed the line at best).

Thanks!!

Penny




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 00:21:49 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:21:49 -0000
Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate
Message-ID: <8p42mt+g8k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1039

I know I am way behind everyone else on this, but I finally read 
Paradigm of Uncertainty and, well, wow!!  The only reservations I 
have are a couple of minor inconsistencies and my belief that Cho 
gets too much of a bad rap as it is.  But the writing is excellent 
and the romance angle, which could so easily have become cliche, is 
handled perfectly.  I've never read fanfic before and I know I am 
going to be spoiled now and have over-high expectations for anything 
else I read (but hopefully ASA can fulfill those expectations).
PoU did get me thinking on exactly how Voldemort is to be defeated by 
Book 7.  It has been stated, implicitly and explicitly, that Voldy 
has become something other than a physical human and cannot be 
killed.  So if Voldy is killed, it will be no more than a half-
victory--Voldy will be no more defeated at the end of the series than 
he was at the beginning.  So if you can kill Voldy's body but not his 
spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his spirit as well.  
And, of course, JKR has already introduced something that can destroy 
a spirit, or "soul": a dementor.  Might it turn out that the only way 
to permanently get rid of Voldy is to have a dementor kiss him?  If 
so, how to turn the dementors against Voldy?




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 00:29:11 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:29:11 -0400
Subject: Ot's....(Chat scripts)
References: <8p3tmc+eusm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013401c01799$7b217800$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1040

And completely OT posts that do things like make fun of Ohio, while 
funny, are, well.....ok, this is a hard one because I tend to let 
people get away with anything as long as it is funny, but maybe we 
could all just try to be relevant.  Just so that we dont all get 
buried under an avalanche.  OK, go ahead and disagree with me.  Thats 
what Im here for.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I want to apologize to everyone for that one!  I meant it as humor, like I used to post in the club at times (like those lists people used to have "You know you were born in the 80, 90, 70's...")

Penny has approached me, and asked me not to post those kind of things any longer.

As for chatroom scripts, I have started a new egroup for them specifically.  If you are interested
here's the link for that one!  

2) Go to the eGroups site at 
   http://www.egroups.com/invite/HPforGrownupsChatScripts 
   and click the "JOIN" button



Thanks folks!  I am sorry again, if I upset folks--it just seemed so funny at the time, I had to share.

(Looks sheepish...and slinks away...)    





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 00:44:04 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:44:04 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B44394.8BC2BC55@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p440k+3rju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1041

I just want to say that I loved Peg s thoughtful essay on secrets, 
although I do also have to add that from a completely selfish point 
of view I would really prefer it if Peg would stop thinking about 
Harry Potter, get off the Internet, quit her job, and give away her 
children so that she would have time to write a sequel to Emerald 
House Rising.

I did also have some specific comments.  One is about Rita Skeeter.  
I do not see her as being a member of the other team (the Voldies?). 
I know Peg has explained that she was not really saying this, but I 
want to also put forth my belief that when the time comes for picking 
sides, Rita will actually choose the right team (The Dumblies?).  
However, Peg s depiction of her bevavior is accurate; I agree that 
one of the characteristics of the Bad Guys, as well as the Badly 
Behaved But Deep In Their Hearts Good Guys (Snape, Crouch Sr., 
Skeeter, Bagman) is their inability to judge how, who and when to 
trust others.

> > Another thought: what do you make of the fact that Hagrid, though 
on Our Team,
> > doesn't seema as capable of keeping secrets?  Remember, he was 
the one who
> > spilled the beans about Fluffy in PS/SS.  Do you think that will 
be important
> > later too?
> 
> Now that hadn't occurred to me, but you're right; good point.  
Hagrid has . . .
> how to say this . . . sort of a problem with proportion.  He 
doesn't always read
> social cues correctly.  That is why Dumbledore will trust him to 
some extent (I'm
> pretty sure he's being sent as an emissary to the Giants, with 
Madame Maxine) but
> he's not one of the inner core who Dumbledore trusted enought to 
learn in the
> hospital wing about Sirius' true identity at the end of GoF.

I saw the fact that Hagrid was excluded more as a reflection of the 
fact that he is not a fully certified wizard, and therefore can only 
play a limited role in the upcoming battle.  After all, you dont 
invite the privates to the strategy sessions with the generals.

In a related vein, did anyone else find the scene in the hospital 
room at the end of GoF a little odd?  Didnt Dumbledore seem to be 
including the kids in on some very grownup matters?  This is one of 
the few significant scenes in GoF that we have not analyzed to shreds 
but it seems to me that it has some interesting implications.




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 00:46:48 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:46:48 -0000
Subject: Ratings
In-Reply-To: <006001c01786$1e06ea00$73977ed4@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8p445o+s62s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1042

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rainbow Play Systems" <nick at n...> 
wrote:
> And just to get this back on topic... what classification do you 
think the
> Harry Potter movie should have?   Should it be G/U, PG or PG-13  (or
> something higher!) ?


Personally, I am hoping that the HP movie has an NC-17 rating so that 
I wont have to watch it with a million screaming children, but I 
guess thats not very likely.

- Joy the evil witch (who boils little children in her cauldron)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 01:00:48 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:00:48 -0400
Subject: Chapter Nine - Summary
References: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39B59740.C1CDF8DE@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1043

(sorry it's a day late - blame labor day!)
The chapter begins on a perfectly chipper note, with the exuberant Ireland
supporters and other spectators returning to their campsites.
Then, things get mad, bad, and dangerous to know about.
Evil masked Death Eaters make sport out of Mr Roberts (the campsite manager)
and his family, several tents get set afire, the Ministry (and the older
Weasley boys) go after the Death Eaters, almost halfheartedly, as Harry,
Hermione and the younger Weasleys are sent to wait it out in the woods.
There, they run into Draco, who acts like a prejudiced git, get separated
from the twins & Ginny, have their first meeting with a Beauxbatons student
(and see some older boys and Veelas), see Winky, the Crouch House Elf
fleeing, notice Ludo Bagman looking very stressed and out of the loop, and
realize that Harry has lost his wand.
Then, the Dark Mark illuminates the sky for the first time in over a decade,
causing mass hysteria. And Harry's wand was used to do it. And after Harry
is briefly accused of being the one to conjure it, Winky is blamed, as she
was found holding Harry's wand
Amos Diggory, Cedric's father, interrogates her, and she claims she found it
in the trees and picked it up right before being Stunned. Mr Crouch, upset
that a member of his household is associated, publicly, with the Dark Mark,
tells Winky that she will be fired (he says he will give her clothes, and as
we remember from Book II, a house elf who has been given clothes is freed);
she is very upset about this.
The group disperses, the Weasleys, Harry & Hermione return to the campsite.
Percy sticks up for Mr Crouch, Hermione becomes evangellical on the subject
of Elf Rights, and we get a little history of the Death Eaters and the Dark
Mark.
The Chapter ends with Harry thinking about the pain in his scar, only three
days before.

THOUGHTS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Is this chapter written Rashamon-style, so that in rereading it, after
reading Chapter Thirty Five, the dialogue and actions of Mr Crouch and Winky
made a lot more sense?
2. Do you think that Draco quite understands what it means to be evil and a
Death Eater, or is he just meandering down a path his father has created
without thinking about where that path really leads?
3. Does Percy really think the way he speaks, or is he a big phony?
4. Guys, what would you say to get a Veela to go out with you?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 01:10:43 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:10:43 -0400
Subject: Filch: A Character Study
References: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net> <39B59740.C1CDF8DE@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <39B59993.58C50B44@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1044

Argus Filch:
We are introduced to Filch in Book 1; he is in charge of the inside of the
castle, in a similar manner to how Hagrid is in charge of the outside, but with
very different results.
He is a squib - a person born to a magical family who has no wizarding powers,
although he seems to be able to use certain magical things and devices to
accomplish certain tasks (probably in the same way that Muggles like Hermione's
parents can enjoy tooth flossing stringmints).
He bullies the students (in Book IV, reduces some first year girls to tears when
they mess up one of the floors), would love to return to the days when
misbehaving students are hung from their wrists, and has files on the
troublemakers, with special attention paid at present to the Weasley Twins, and
in the past to Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.
He knows all but 3 of the secret passages out of Hogwarts, into Hogsmeade.
And he has a cat named Mrs Norris (see my next post)


Topics for Discussion
1. I don't have the first 3 books by my side now - does Filch attend any of the
Christmas dinners in those books? I don't remember seeing him there; where would
he go, otherwise?
2. What, exactly, is his relationship with Mrs Norris
3. Who would he go after first if he was allowed to re-introduce chaining
troublemakers from the ceiling?
4. Is there any chance that he could be corrupted by the Death Eaters, or is the
fact that he's a Squib enough of a reason for them to avoid using him, and his
access to the castle's secrets, either with his complicity or against his will?




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Wed Sep  6 04:02:01 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:02:01 -0700
Subject: Ratings, etc.
References: <8ovabt+1qjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B5C1B9.57F2991@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1045

     Hi, I'm new to this group.  I've really been enjoying the discussions
of HP and am especially glad to have met a group of adults who also
appreciate what a great fun and serious read the HP books are.  My 7 year
old gave me the first book to read in July when I went to the hospital to
have our youngest; I read it straight through and ordered the others from
Amazon as soon as I got home!

    The current discussions are wonderful; I hope to join in on a regular
basis as time goes on.  For now, this thread about fanfic ratings got me to
thinking about movie ratings.  What do you think the rating for the film
will finally be?  Granted, Book One has less of the heavy material that is
found in GoF (a spectacular book IMHO), but US audiences tend to like their
"kid flicks" rated G.  The HP movie would have to be a PG or even a PG-13 to
really get it right.  But would that effect box office and subsequently any
future movies?

Just thinking....
drpam











From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep  6 01:14:00 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 18:14:00 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoU and Voldemort's fate
In-Reply-To: <8p42mt+g8k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEEHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1046

There's no guarantee that Voldemort will be destroyed in any way by the end
of book 7.  I wonder if JKR is going to forswear sweetness and light and
happy endings.  Or Voldemort may personally be vanquished, but his evil
ideas will continue to plague the wizarding world.  There's always SOME
tyrant waiting in the wings to try his or her hand at Domination.  It will
be interesting to see what JKR has in store.  Knowing her writing, it will
probably take us all by surprise.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Bates [mailto:spicoli323 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:22 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoU and Voldemort's fate

I know I am way behind everyone else on this, but I finally read
Paradigm of Uncertainty and, well, wow!!  The only reservations I
have are a couple of minor inconsistencies and my belief that Cho
gets too much of a bad rap as it is.  But the writing is excellent
and the romance angle, which could so easily have become cliche, is
handled perfectly.  I've never read fanfic before and I know I am
going to be spoiled now and have over-high expectations for anything
else I read (but hopefully ASA can fulfill those expectations).
PoU did get me thinking on exactly how Voldemort is to be defeated by
Book 7.  It has been stated, implicitly and explicitly, that Voldy
has become something other than a physical human and cannot be
killed.  So if Voldy is killed, it will be no more than a half-
victory--Voldy will be no more defeated at the end of the series than
he was at the beginning.  So if you can kill Voldy's body but not his
spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his spirit as well.
And, of course, JKR has already introduced something that can destroy
a spirit, or "soul": a dementor.  Might it turn out that the only way
to permanently get rid of Voldy is to have a dementor kiss him?  If
so, how to turn the dementors against Voldy?


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 01:11:42 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:11:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Nine - Summary
References: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net> <39B59740.C1CDF8DE@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <021a01c0179f$6b852260$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1047

Please, Heidi, will you explain the meaningof the words below?  I haven't seen them before, and always like to know (helps me develop my vocabulary!).

Thanks!
Dee

. Is this chapter written Rashamon-style, so that in rereading it, after
reading Chapter Thirty Five, the dialogue and actions of Mr Crouch and Winky
made a lot more sense?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 01:15:10 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:15:10 -0400
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
References: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net> <39B59740.C1CDF8DE@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <39B59A9E.4508BBC3@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1048

Mrs Norris:
We are introduced to Mrs Norris in Book 1; she is, we believe, Filch's cat, and
she helps him in catching mischief-makers in and around the castle.
She is probably able to "notice" Harry when he's under the invisibility cloak.
She appears on the Marauder's Map, listed as "Mrs Norris".

Topics for discussion:
1. Is she really a cat? We've met so many other unregistered Animagi - how do we
know she isn't one as well?
2. Why is she the only animal to appear on the Marauder's Map?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 01:19:47 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:19:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Nine - Summary
References: <39B54189.73DCE580@hic.net> <39B59740.C1CDF8DE@the-beach.net> <021a01c0179f$6b852260$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39B59BB3.576050E6@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1049



Dee wrote:

> --Please, Heidi, will you explain the meaningof the words below?  I haven't seen them before, and always like to know (helps me develop my vocabulary!).
>
> . Is this chapter written Rashamon-style, so that in rereading it, after
> reading Chapter Thirty Five, the dialogue and actions of Mr Crouch and Winky
> made a lot more sense?

Rashamon is a story that demonstrates that no point of views are ever alike. In the story, the killer, the witnesses and the dead himself all testify to
what 'really' happened. Of course, in such an incident, no one has any story that seems equal to anothers. Reality, as demonstrated, is subjective due by
the fact that no one has an all-seeing point of view. I believe Kurosawa did a film version of it at some point.




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Sep  6 02:06:19 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 02:06:19 -0000
Subject: What ever happened to our old pictures?
Message-ID: <8p48qr+1stv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1050

Before Yahoo's file system crashed and burned we had some interesting 
photos of King's Cross Station, Rowling's Hogwarts Express tour, 
etc.  If anyone still has copies of these, could you please re-post?

Also, in the spirit of combining posts, does anyone know where I can 
buy a couple of tickets to the London premier of Philosopher's 
Stone? :)

-JF




From berry at wolfenet.com  Wed Sep  6 02:12:29 2000
From: berry at wolfenet.com (Kent Berry)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:12:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <39B59A9E.4508BBC3@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLHDGACAJKELPBKBPGEHPDLAA.berry@wolfenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1051


> Mrs Norris:
> We are introduced to Mrs Norris in Book 1; she is, we believe,
> Filch's cat, and
> she helps him in catching mischief-makers in and around the castle.
> She is probably able to "notice" Harry when he's under the
> invisibility cloak.
> She appears on the Marauder's Map, listed as "Mrs Norris".
>
> Topics for discussion:
> 1. Is she really a cat? We've met so many other unregistered
> Animagi - how do we
> know she isn't one as well?

I don't think she's an Animagus.  Wormtail is the only Animagus that stays
transformed, and he did that for obvious reasons.  Why would one choose to
be a human in a cat's body?

On another note, does the consensus hold that Mrs. Norris is named for Jane
Austen's Mrs. Norris from Mansfield Park?

Julie B.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 02:15:30 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:15:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What ever happened to our old pictures?
References: <8p48qr+1stv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02c201c017a8$5777fdc0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1052

Jim,
First, I know that it was Nick (wasn't it?) who left us a link to a whole page they made out of those pics.  Since yahoo's Daemons decided pictures needed eaten and not viewed, we of course lost ours.

Second, would you mind explaining the second part?  Tickets to the PS?

Thanks !

VEEEEEERY BLONDE TONITE~

(Fixing mother's computer ~that's the reason for the slowness of the club--haven't been home to post all day, lol! and it's fighting me tooth and nail.  I keep getting something that labels itself as "I/O 2F8" error when it's through scanning memory in the first page (the press DEL to enter Bios page), and then of course, since I already did the C:FORMAT C, it's telling me that there isn't a Cdrom to install Windows 95 back onto the system.  Dang it Jim, I'm a programmer not a technician.....sighs.  BBBBIIIIG Headache, though, tonight.


@   @
   ^
~~~~

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Flanagan 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:06 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] What ever happened to our old pictures?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Before Yahoo's file system crashed and burned we had some interesting 
  photos of King's Cross Station, Rowling's Hogwarts Express tour, 
  etc.  If anyone still has copies of these, could you please re-post?

  Also, in the spirit of combining posts, does anyone know where I can 
  buy a couple of tickets to the London premier of Philosopher's 
  Stone? :)

  -JF


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 02:18:34 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:18:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study
References: <LOBBLHDGACAJKELPBKBPGEHPDLAA.berry@wolfenet.com>
Message-ID: <02cc01c017a8$c3d47840$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1053

Never read the book.  I am leaving the post I am responding to below to include all points.  As far as being Animagus, I am not certain.  There is something in me, though that believes that if they are not related, then Crookshanks and Mrs. Norris are at least the same breed of cat (like fae cat, perhaps? Do the fae exist here in HP?  Elves do?), since alot of their habits seem to run parallel to each other.

I can't give comment very well on Mrs. Norris being Mrs. Norris, but knowing how well read Jo was, perhaps it is a distinct possibility!

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kent Berry 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:12 PM
  Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  



  > Mrs Norris:
  > We are introduced to Mrs Norris in Book 1; she is, we believe,
  > Filch's cat, and
  > she helps him in catching mischief-makers in and around the castle.
  > She is probably able to "notice" Harry when he's under the
  > invisibility cloak.
  > She appears on the Marauder's Map, listed as "Mrs Norris".
  >
  > Topics for discussion:
  > 1. Is she really a cat? We've met so many other unregistered
  > Animagi - how do we
  > know she isn't one as well?

  I don't think she's an Animagus.  Wormtail is the only Animagus that stays
  transformed, and he did that for obvious reasons.  Why would one choose to
  be a human in a cat's body?

  On another note, does the consensus hold that Mrs. Norris is named for Jane
  Austen's Mrs. Norris from Mansfield Park?

  Julie B.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 02:27:21 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 02:27:21 -0000
Subject: Music, is it important in HP?
Message-ID: <8p4a29+39oc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1054

I believe that I posted this before, and I didn't get any replies...I 
don't think.  Ok I'll try it again and maybe somebody will actually 
give their input.

In PS/SS after the students have sung the Hogwarts Anthem (which I 
can't wait to see how they adapt to film! errr anyhow...) Dumbledore 
says something to the effect of (I don't have SS w/ me now.) "Ah, 
music, a magic beyond all we do here."  Now there are a lot of ways 
that this could be interpreted.  Here are a few...

1)Dumbledore is simply making a general statement about how music can 
move a person.  Specifically a headmaster listening to his school 
song.  If this is true then please disregard this whole message.

2)On the other hand, knowing Jo's love of small hints being important 
later on I would interpret it as something like this...Dumbledore 
seems to know that music is a powerful type of magic (?) (I guess 
really wouldn't even be considered magic though).  Examples- In CoS 
Harry seems to be in a situation that is not very hopeful until the 
arrival of the Pheonix, AND the Pheonix Song.  This same "music" is 
heard in the cemetary in GoF.  Is it possible that I could have 
something here!?!?

I guess that I'm probably over-reading in this case but one of my 
favorite pet theories is that Voldy's ultimate downfall would be to 
the tune of- "Oops I did it again" (JUST KIDDING! Though that was a 
very funny fanfic....) 

Comments?

Scott  




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 02:36:49 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:36:49 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music, is it important in HP?
References: <8p4a29+39oc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02ea01c017ab$4fada380$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1055

That was a fanfic?  Ack!  Please, no more Brittany Spears.. .The one I mentioned was enough.

Seriously BOS (Back on Subject):

Isn't the "mer-song" of the egg music too in a way?  This might work into the theory you are sporting, and I do see where you are taking this.

I also believe, on Fawkes, that he and his song will be important as the series progresses.  He's been in three out of four of the books now...

Dee    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:27 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music, is it important in HP?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  I believe that I posted this before, and I didn't get any replies...I 
  don't think.  Ok I'll try it again and maybe somebody will actually 
  give their input.

  In PS/SS after the students have sung the Hogwarts Anthem (which I 
  can't wait to see how they adapt to film! errr anyhow...) Dumbledore 
  says something to the effect of (I don't have SS w/ me now.) "Ah, 
  music, a magic beyond all we do here."  Now there are a lot of ways 
  that this could be interpreted.  Here are a few...

  1)Dumbledore is simply making a general statement about how music can 
  move a person.  Specifically a headmaster listening to his school 
  song.  If this is true then please disregard this whole message.

  2)On the other hand, knowing Jo's love of small hints being important 
  later on I would interpret it as something like this...Dumbledore 
  seems to know that music is a powerful type of magic (?) (I guess 
  really wouldn't even be considered magic though).  Examples- In CoS 
  Harry seems to be in a situation that is not very hopeful until the 
  arrival of the Pheonix, AND the Pheonix Song.  This same "music" is 
  heard in the cemetary in GoF.  Is it possible that I could have 
  something here!?!?

  I guess that I'm probably over-reading in this case but one of my 
  favorite pet theories is that Voldy's ultimate downfall would be to 
  the tune of- "Oops I did it again" (JUST KIDDING! Though that was a 
  very funny fanfic....) 

  Comments?

  Scott  


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Sep  6 02:56:08 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 02:56:08 -0000
Subject: London Opening - Advance Travel Planning (was "What ever happened. . .")
In-Reply-To: <02c201c017a8$5777fdc0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8p4bo8+kbh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1056

>>. . . does anyone know where I can buy a couple of tickets to the 
>>London premier of Philosopher's Stone? :) 

> . . .would you mind explaining the second part?  Tickets to the PS?

Well, although the request for tickets in my original post was 
intended as a joke (the smiley was a clue), I really would fly to the 
UK to attend the opening of Philosopher's (not Sorcerer's) Stone. The 
last time I visited London was around Thanksgiving (US). The weather 
was still tolerable and off-season pricing was in effect. I wouldn't 
mind going again in November, 2001.  Any travel agents in the Group?

-JF




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep  6 03:25:29 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:25:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOTR & WWII
References: <8p3s0f+cp8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B5B929.B7526D31@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1057



Brooks R wrote:.

> LOTR is clearly not a retelling of WWII, and
> Tolkien said as much,  but I believe he also admitted that some
> scenes in it were influenced by WWII experiences/events - not of the
> grand sweep of the war, but of things he experienced on the home
> front.

Tolkien actually fought on the battleline in WWI, which may have been an
even greater influence than being on the home front in WWII.  He was great
friends with three other friends the same age (rather like MWPP--see, I know
what the acronym stands for now!) and two of them died in battle, which
affected him greatly.  He himself became sick from trench fever and was
subsequently sent home from the front.

I recommend Humphrey Carpenter's Tolkien: A Biography.  I believe it does
discuss the influence of the World Wars on his fiction.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep  6 03:31:39 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:31:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secrets (Long)
References: <8p440k+3rju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B5BA9B.A5EA6191@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1058



Joywitch wrote:

> I just want to say that I loved Peg s thoughtful essay on secrets,
> although I do also have to add that from a completely selfish point
> of view I would really prefer it if Peg would stop thinking about
> Harry Potter, get off the Internet, quit her job, and give away her
> children so that she would have time to write a sequel to Emerald
> House Rising.

Thanks--I needed a bellylaugh today.

> In a related vein, did anyone else find the scene in the hospital
> room at the end of GoF a little odd?  Didnt Dumbledore seem to be
> including the kids in on some very grownup matters?

It was in the scene right before this one that Harry told his story to
Dumbledore and Sirius, and Dumbledore tells him: "You have shown bravery
equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers.  You
have shouldered a grown wizard's burden and found yourself equal to it."  I
think he believes Harry has earned the right to be in on the discussion
about what should be done. And as for Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore knows
that they work with Harry as a team--and this team has already thwarted
Voldemort several times.  Dumbledore says, too, at the leaving feast that
although the students are children, they have the right to know what they
are facing.  Presumably he agrees with (the faux) Moody: "You got to know."

Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep  6 03:35:21 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:35:21 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <39B59A9E.4508BBC3@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8p4e1p+53so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1059

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi wrote:
> Mrs Norris:
> 2. Why is she the only animal to appear on the Marauder's Map?

DO we KNOW that she is the only animal to appear on the Marauder's 
Map? Do we know that Crookshanks doesn't appear, that Hedwig doesn't 
appear, that Pigwidgeon doesn't appear? We never saw Harry LOOK 
on the map for Crookshanks or Hedwig or Pigwidgeon! As for rats and 
cockroaches hiding inside the walls, I imagine that only animals 
who have been given names by people appear on the map.




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Wed Sep  6 04:46:17 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:46:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoU and Voldemort's fate
Message-ID: <v02140bc8b5db7c69a42d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1060


>I know I am way behind everyone else on this, but I finally read
>Paradigm of Uncertainty and, well, wow!!  The only reservations I
>have are a couple of minor inconsistencies and my belief that Cho
>gets too much of a bad rap as it is.

Well...gimme a break, I wrote it before GoF came out.  :-)  And I tried not
to make Cho too bad, she's basically a nice person with a few issues.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Sep  6 03:46:44 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:46:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study
Message-ID: <200009060353.e863rYv20211@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1061

>2. Why is she the only animal to appear on the Marauder's Map?
>


Actually she's not.  I can't remember exactly where this reference is, but I 
am positive that at some point in PoA, Harry saw a small dot labelled "Neville 
Longbottom" chasing another dot labelled "Trevor".  (I think it might be right 
before the second time Harry sneaks into Hogsmeade?)

Kathy




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 04:03:40 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 00:03:40 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study
Message-ID: <c6.a50ddd0.26e71c21@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1062

In a message dated Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:15:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Kent Berry" <berry at wolfenet.com> writes:

<< On another note, does the consensus hold that Mrs. Norris is named for Jane
Austen's Mrs. Norris from Mansfield Park?

Julie B. >>

Yes, JKR once said in an interview that she was named for a character in one of Jane Austen's books, and the Mansfield Park Mrs. Norris is the only one I know of.

Ellie




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 04:25:28 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 04:25:28 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLHDGACAJKELPBKBPGEHPDLAA.berry@wolfenet.com>
Message-ID: <8p4gvo+7dal@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1063

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kent Berry" <berry at w...> wrote:
> 
> On another note, does the consensus hold that Mrs. Norris is named 
for Jane
> Austen's Mrs. Norris from Mansfield Park?
> 

I, personally, am convinced of it.  I recently read Mansfield Park.  
At the beginning of the book, I found Mrs. Norris to be annoying and 
noted the HP connection.  By the end of the book I hated Mrs. Norris 
with a passion.  Jane Austen is such an exceedingly skillful author; 
she manages to paint a complete and intimate portrait of her 
characters so that you feel you have known them all your life.  I 
never wanted to smack a character in a book as badly as I wanted to 
smack Mrs. Norris when she is nasty to Fanny.  I suspect JKR is 
getting her revenge on Mrs. Norris by giving her name to a nasty 
little cat who everyone hates.

-- Joywitch




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep  6 04:50:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 04:50:44 -0000
Subject: Music, is it important in HP?
In-Reply-To: <8p4a29+39oc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p4if4+tsps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1064

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

> ...Dumbledore seems to know that music is a powerful type of magic 
> Examples- In CoS Harry seems to be in a situation that is not very
> hopeful until the arrival of the Pheonix, AND the Pheonix Song.  

As far as the magic of music, I'll just sit back and let JKR surprise 
me. She always does, even when I try to figure out what is going on.

But I keep saying (and Ron keeps not hearing me!) that the best way 
for Ron to solve his problem of wanting to succeed at something 
that his brothers haven't done yet is for him to take up either music 
or drawing. And playing a portable instrument while singing does 
more for one's popularity as a guest at parties than sketching quick 
life-like portraits of the other guests.

The Weird Sisters play 'a set of drums, several guitars, a lute, a 
cello and some bagpipes.' They are 'all extremely hairy, and dressed 
in black robes that had been artfullu ripped and torn.' Species and 
gender of the musicians? Genre of the music?

I might as well repeat my dislike of the wizarding broadcasting 
service calling itself Wizarding Wireless Network. Radio is only 
called wireless because it came after telegraph, which used wires. 
Wizarding broadcasting (what would it be called, as it isn't radio?) 
presumably came after spellegraph, but spellegraph does not use wires 
(as the inventory of spellegraph, I feel strongly about this!). It 
originally used ley lines, but soon was improved to do without them.




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 04:51:56 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 04:51:56 -0000
Subject: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
In-Reply-To: <8p4e1p+53so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p4ihc+68du@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1065

<As for rats and cockroaches hiding inside the walls, I imagine that 
only animals who have been given names by people appear on the map.>

If that is true, it might help explain why the Weasley twins never 
noticed "Peter Pettigrew" on the map.  Peter had been 
named "Scabbers" as a rat, and that is as valid a name as "Peter 
Pettigrew" in my mind.  So when he was in rat form he might appear 
as "Scabbers".  Sirius and Rita Skeeter, on the other hand, never got 
named as animals, so the map would just revert to their human names 
even while they were in animal form.




From dogspoon at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 05:01:04 2000
From: dogspoon at yahoo.com (Shawn Cowan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:01:04 -0000
Subject: Fan Art
Message-ID: <8p4j2g+qkni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1066

I just posted my pics in the Fan Art folder.  I want to encourage 
other fans to do the same so that we can all experience what visions 
JKR has stuck in your heads.  




From dogspoon at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 05:05:05 2000
From: dogspoon at yahoo.com (Shawn Cowan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:05:05 -0000
Subject: PoU and Voldemort's fate
In-Reply-To: <8p42mt+g8k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p4ja1+pjb2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1067

Who says that Voldemort gets defeated anyway.  Maybe he sees the 
error of his ways or maybe he entices Harry to come over to the dark 
side.  "Harry, I am your father"  Nah, he's gonna eat dirt.




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 05:09:04 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:09:04 -0000
Subject: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
In-Reply-To: <8p4ihc+68du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p4jhg+uhdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1068

I just saw the weakness in my argument and a way to explain it away.  
Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew's name on the Map even while he was in rat 
form.  But I guess it's still possible that the map shows the name 
that the person using the map has for each person.  So, since Lupin 
knew Wormtail as Peter Pettigrew, the map showed him "Peter 
Pettigrew" but since the twins knew Wormtail as Scabbers, the map 
showed them "Scabbers".




From dogspoon at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 05:10:05 2000
From: dogspoon at yahoo.com (Shawn Cowan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 05:10:05 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <39B59A9E.4508BBC3@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8p4jjd+9d9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1069

Have you guys ever seen Sabrina: Teenage Witch?  The cat on that show 
is a man that has been punished for whatever reason and cursed to 
live as a cat.  Maybe this is the case for Mrs. Norris.  Maybe not.  
I don't know, I'm just looking for a reason to run my mouth.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 05:07:38 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 01:07:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
References: <8p4ihc+68du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03ec01c017c0$60cbc2e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1070

That wouldn't work, though, Steve, because Lupin looked at the map, and saw Peter's name on it....

PoA.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Bates 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 12:51 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  <As for rats and cockroaches hiding inside the walls, I imagine that 
  only animals who have been given names by people appear on the map.>

  If that is true, it might help explain why the Weasley twins never 
  noticed "Peter Pettigrew" on the map.  Peter had been 
  named "Scabbers" as a rat, and that is as valid a name as "Peter 
  Pettigrew" in my mind.  So when he was in rat form he might appear 
  as "Scabbers".  Sirius and Rita Skeeter, on the other hand, never got 
  named as animals, so the map would just revert to their human names 
  even while they were in animal form.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep  6 06:12:04 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:12:04 -0700
Subject: OT - Ley Lines (was "Music...)
In-Reply-To: <8p4if4+tsps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEEOCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1071


-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Winston

>>>> It originally used ley lines, but soon was improved to do without
them.<<<<


You ever get one of those flurries of synchronicity?  This is the third time
in less than 48 hours that I have read about ley lines, which I'd never
heard of before.  I'm including a definition below in case anyone is
wondering...

"Briefly, the idea, first propounded by Alfred Watkins,
a Herefordshire amateur archaeologist in the
early 1920's, holds that the early inhabitants of
Britain deliberately placed mounds, camps and
standing stones across the landscape in straight
lines. As time went by later structures were added to
these sites. Some Roman roads followed the leys,
Christian churches were built on what had been ley
markers in order to take advantage of the age and
sanctity already attached to them, and the keeps of
mediaeval castles were sited on mounds that had
marked leys millennia before. As a result it is still
possible to trace these alignments on maps."






From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep  6 06:23:19 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 01:23:19 -0500
Subject: PoU and Voldemorts fate
References: <968210560.16664@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B5E2D9.7B40791@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1072

> It has been stated, implicitly and explicitly, that Voldy
> has become something other than a physical human and cannot be
> killed.  So if Voldy is killed, it will be no more than a half-
> victory--Voldy will be no more defeated at the end of the series than
> he was at the beginning.  So if you can kill Voldy's body but not his
> spirit, you'd need something that can destroy his spirit as well.

Except at end of GoF doesn't Voldy say he is willing to rest regaining
at least some mortality because  it is best he can do at present and
perhaps good enough?  I had the distinct impression he might be
intending to then try to recreate some of the spells which gave him this
immortality in the first place - another reason for my suggestion he
might choose to lie low for the most part in Book 5, with the principal
conflict being with his minions instead.

-Brooks



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 06:23:54 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 02:23:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Ley Lines (Wiccanism, Magick, and other magickal OT subjects)
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEEOCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <005601c017cb$09314e00$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1073

(Dead tired, forgive typos)

For those subjects that have a hint of magick, wiccanism, or the like, here's a club that will help you discuss it, to move it off list.  :)

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ancientcauldroncoven

It's been around for a long time, and I hope this helps.  

So next time that sound says that's an OT Wicca subject, they can say take that to ACC (Ancient Cauldron Coven).  I have been a member there for almost three years now.  We've discussed so many things my head's swam to recall!

Hope this helps those who was seeking Wiccan/Magick subjects in a further depth than HP gives it!

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sister Mary Lunatic 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:12 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Ley Lines (was "Music...)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  



  -----Original Message-----
  From: Rita Winston

  >>>> It originally used ley lines, but soon was improved to do without
  them.<<<<


  You ever get one of those flurries of synchronicity?  This is the third time
  in less than 48 hours that I have read about ley lines, which I'd never
  heard of before.  I'm including a definition below in case anyone is
  wondering...

  "Briefly, the idea, first propounded by Alfred Watkins,
  a Herefordshire amateur archaeologist in the
  early 1920's, holds that the early inhabitants of
  Britain deliberately placed mounds, camps and
  standing stones across the landscape in straight
  lines. As time went by later structures were added to
  these sites. Some Roman roads followed the leys,
  Christian churches were built on what had been ley
  markers in order to take advantage of the age and
  sanctity already attached to them, and the keeps of
  mediaeval castles were sited on mounds that had
  marked leys millennia before. As a result it is still
  possible to trace these alignments on maps."




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep  6 07:03:34 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:03:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <39B59A9E.4508BBC3@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEFACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1074

>>>She is probably able to "notice" Harry when he's under the invisibility
cloak.<<<<

This is something that makes me wonder.  Harry always thinks that Mrs.
Norris is looking right at him when he's invisible, and yet the cat never
goes up to him and performs any action that would reveal his presence.  She
just stares at the space where he is.  Since she seems to aid Filch in
catching delinquent students, why is she not attempting to bring Filch's
attention to the invisible Harry?



=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.anewlife.org/
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "If you want to fight, find another enemy." (Vernon Howard)
=============================================




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 13:26:26 2000
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend-Ings)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:26:26 -0000
Subject: Storing chats and other topics
Message-ID: <8p5gm2+2vap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1075

I like the idea of having the chats available, but owing to space 
limitations I agree with making them available for a limited time (I 
believe one month was mentioned). I think if I, personally, don't 
access the last chat before the next one arrives, I'm not likely to 
go back that far. My e-mail objects strenuously to very large 
messages, so accessing chats here is my best option.

OUR TEAM VS. THEIR TEAM: Thanks for your insight Peg! I suspect there 
isn't much left to add on that topic - at least nothing my brain can 
arrive at without sufficient amounts of caffeine this morning. I will 
be out looking to see how available your books are in the Canadian 
public library system.

Sheryll




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 15:10:12 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:10:12 -0500
Subject: Romance Pairings
Message-ID: <39B65E54.B57BB548@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1076

Hi --

As I mentioned yesterday, a group of us are hard at work writing the
topical FAQs.  I'm writing "Potential Romantic Pairings," and I have
some rather gaping holes to fill.

Calling all those in favor of Ron/Herm, Harry/Ginny, Harry/Cho and/or
Herm/Krum -- I need your arguments in support of these pairings.  So
far, all I have is that these romantic pairings are the personal
preference of some of our members (personal preference but no real
reasons given why the pairing is a match made in heaven so to speak).
With Ron/Herm, I have a bit more -- but mainly just "they fight alot so
they must like each other."

So far, all I have are the arguments *against* the above pairings.  If
you'd like to chime in, please do so.  You can feel free to email me
privately if you'd rather (linsenma at hic.net).

We've decided that some holes in the FAQs will just be left to serve as
discussion points for the group, but given my strong (and vocal) H/H
leaning, I don't want to be accused of bias in favor of the H/H pairing
in this particular FAQ.  So, if you can be creative & help me out, I'd
appreciate it.  Thanks.

Penny




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep  6 15:11:47 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:11:47 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEFACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8p5mrj+cq5c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1077

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> >>>She is probably able to "notice" Harry when he's under the 
invisibility
> cloak.<<<<
> 
> This is something that makes me wonder.  Harry always thinks that 
Mrs.
> Norris is looking right at him when he's invisible, and yet the cat 
never
> goes up to him and performs any action that would reveal his 
presence.  She
> just stares at the space where he is.  Since she seems to aid Filch 
in
> catching delinquent students, why is she not attempting to bring 
Filch's
> attention to the invisible Harry?


One possible answer - with all the ghosts around, she thinks that 
something in an invisibility cloak is just another one of those,
which might be interesting to watch, but are clearly *not* in the
supervised students category.  

Almost everyone with experience with a cat, and many people with 
experience with a dog, have noticed that sometimes the critter seems 
to be intently watching something moving that the human cannot see. 
I call those "Cobblies" (Cobbly, singular) after one of the stories
that make up Clifford D. Simak's _City_ . (Wherein men leave the
Earth and a civilization of talking dogs they created, and left 
behind, takes over. The 'Cobbly worlds' in the story are alternate 
dimensions very near to our own, which animals can sometimes see into 
when we can't, so that is what they are watching.  In the story, 
something unpleasant from one of the Cobbly worlds breaks the 
interdimensional barrier and arrives in this one.  But anyway, i
think Mrs. Norris assumes that the something she sees is an unusual 
ghost, or else one of whatever cats really are seeing when we can't 
see what they are watching.

-Brooks




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 15:29:02 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:29:02 -0000
Subject: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
In-Reply-To: <8p4ihc+68du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p5nru+hjtv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1078

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> <As for rats and cockroaches hiding inside the walls, I imagine 
that 
> only animals who have been given names by people appear on the map.>
> 
> If that is true, it might help explain why the Weasley twins never 
> noticed "Peter Pettigrew" on the map.  Peter had been 
> named "Scabbers" as a rat, and that is as valid a name as "Peter 
> Pettigrew" in my mind.  So when he was in rat form he might appear 
> as "Scabbers".  Sirius and Rita Skeeter, on the other hand, never 
got 
> named as animals, so the map would just revert to their human names 
> even while they were in animal form.

Except that the whole reason why Lupin follows Harry, Hermione, Ron 
and Sirius to the shrieking shack (in PoA) is because he notices the 
name Peter Pettigrew on the Marauders Map.  Pettigrew is still in rat 
form at that point, so the map obviously does not say Scabbers, at 
least when Lupin is looking at it.  I suppose it is possible that 
when OTHER people (ones who are acquainted with only Scabbers the rat 
and not Pettigrew the man) look at the map it says Scabbers, but this 
seems unlikely.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 15:53:52 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:53:52 -0000
Subject: animals on marauder's map
Message-ID: <8p5pag+dsdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1079

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
> wrote:
> > <As for rats and cockroaches hiding inside the walls, I imagine 
> that 
> > only animals who have been given names by people appear on the 
map.>
> > 
> > If that is true, it might help explain why the Weasley twins 
never 
> > noticed "Peter Pettigrew" on the map.  Peter had been 
> > named "Scabbers" as a rat, and that is as valid a name as "Peter 
> > Pettigrew" in my mind.  So when he was in rat form he might 
appear 
> > as "Scabbers".  Sirius and Rita Skeeter, on the other hand, never 
> got 
> > named as animals, so the map would just revert to their human 
names 
> > even while they were in animal form.
> 
> Except that the whole reason why Lupin follows Harry, Hermione, Ron 
> and Sirius to the shrieking shack (in PoA) is because he notices 
the 
> name Peter Pettigrew on the Marauders Map.  Pettigrew is still in 
rat 
> form at that point, so the map obviously does not say Scabbers, at 
> least when Lupin is looking at it.  I suppose it is possible that 
> when OTHER people (ones who are acquainted with only Scabbers the 
rat 
> and not Pettigrew the man) look at the map it says Scabbers, but 
this 
> seems unlikely.

And Sirius was named as an animal (or some of us think - Snuffles 
couldn't've come from nowhere: )
The reason I thought that no other animals were "mapped" is because 
Lupin said (and I don't have book 3 with me so it's paraphrase) that 
he saw Sirius drag "two of you" under the willow, and then saw "the 
other two" follow (i.e. Harry & Hermione, not Harry, Hermione & 
Crookshanks, because that would be three).
Also, I agree that it's unlikely that when you look at the map you 
see people for who you think them to be (i.e. if you know scabbers 
the rat & not peter the man, you see "scabbers") because if that was 
the case, Harry would've seen "Moody" and not "Crouch" on the map 
that fateful Night of the Egg.




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep  6 17:09:33 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:09:33 -0000
Subject: Casting suggestion: Flitwick
Message-ID: <8p5tod+dceh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1080

If someone in the early days made this one, apologies for duplication 
-  but it struck me at lunch that Wallace Shawn would make a good 
Flitwick (Vizzini the Sicilian, in _The Princess Bride_.)

Alternately, he would also make a good Quirrel.

-Brooks




From warmsley at btinternet.com  Wed Sep  6 15:43:51 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:43:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
Message-ID: <01c01819$41333d60$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1081

>I just saw the weakness in my argument and a way to explain it
away.
>Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew's name on the Map even while he was
in rat
>form.  But I guess it's still possible that the map shows the
name
>that the person using the map has for each person.  So, since
Lupin
>knew Wormtail as Peter Pettigrew, the map showed him "Peter
>Pettigrew" but since the twins knew Wormtail as Scabbers, the
map
>showed them "Scabbers".
>


Nope, that doesn't work either, sadly - Harry saw Moody as Barty
Crouch, remember?

Jeremy




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Sep  6 16:55:51 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:55:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Casting suggestion: Flitwick
References: <8p5tod+dceh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008801c01823$52f53ee0$3b43ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1082

>
> If someone in the early days made this one, apologies for duplication
> -  but it struck me at lunch that Wallace Shawn would make a good
> Flitwick (Vizzini the Sicilian, in _The Princess Bride_.)
>
> Alternately, he would also make a good Quirrel.
>
> -Brooks

I just saw that movie over the weekend and I was thinking Peter Pettigrew
the entire time Wallace Shawn was on sceen.

I picture Flitwick rather oddly....has anyone seen the Pixar short "Gerald's
Game" that is included before "A Bugs Life" video...I picture Flitwick as
the little old man in that short.  He was also the toy repair guy in Toy
Story 2!  Entirely computer generated of course...so not a real possibility
for a live action movie.

carole







From particle at urbanet.ch  Wed Sep  6 17:28:30 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:28:30 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Romance Pairings...Harry/Cho
References: <39B65E54.B57BB548@hic.net>
Message-ID: <007901c01827$e16297a0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1083

Well, I think that Harry/Cho is mostly based on Cho's potential growth, more than what we actually know of her. But then you need reasons for the potential growth...

To start with, she's a Ravenclaw. This is already a plus, because it breaks free of the 'Gryffindors Forever!' rule - so far, all of the well-developped characters, with the exception of the Professors and other staff, and Draco Malfoy, have been Gryffs...

Then there are the qualities we see in her interactions, on the Quidditch field or off, with Harry. She has a good sense of Quidditch tactics - she knew that Harry had a better broom, but found a way to foil that which almost worked. She's sometimes his rival, and sometimes his ally, and is a good winner. To counterbalance that almost-voer-niceness, she also shows hints of a mischievous streak - she's grinning while she's bugging Harry during the match in PoA. 

Most of this is extrapolation, obviously, but I hope that helps (it probably didn't, though).

~Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 17:42:51 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:42:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A  Character Study)
References: <01c01819$41333d60$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <39B6821B.8CA9B887@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1084

Hi --

Warmsley wrote:

> Nope, that doesn't work either, sadly - Harry saw Moody as Barty
> Crouch, remember?

Actually, just a technical correction -- he saw "Bartemius Crouch."  Had
to point that out since it's the prime evidence that Harry is just Harry
(not Harold or Henry).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 17:38:50 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:38:50 -0000
Subject: Romance Pairings...Harry/Cho
In-Reply-To: <007901c01827$e16297a0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8p5vfa+htls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1085

I also look to her reaction when Harry asked her to the dance in GoF: 
she seemed genuinely torn by the fact that she was already committed 
to going with Cedric.  I think Cedric and Cho's relationship became a 
lot deeper by the end of the year, but at that point she probably 
would have gone out with either one of them; Cedric just asked 
first.  Cedric's death complicates things, but because of the way 
Cedric and Harry managed to bond during the tournament, Cedric's 
death was a loss to Harry as well as to Cho, and they might be able 
to help each other get over their shared grief.




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 17:51:23 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:51:23 -0000
Subject: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
In-Reply-To: <01c01819$41333d60$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <8p606r+986k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1086

 > Nope, that doesn't work either, sadly - Harry saw Moody as Barty
> Crouch, remember?
> 
> Jeremy

Don't worry, I have an answer for that too :-).  It has to do with 
the exact nature of names.  Don't ask me for specifics, but I believe 
names have a lot of special significance in some cultures, even a 
magical significance; I am thinking mainly of Native American and 
African cultures, but maybe the Wiccans reading this could tell me if 
a person's name has a special significance in the Wiccan religion.
It can be said of a name that it is a "gift" from the parents to the 
child; in Harry's case his name is one of the few connections he has 
with his parents.  In a magical sense, then, only a name that is 
given has significance.  Barty Crouch stole Moody's identity, and 
thus his name, but since the name was taken, not given, the Map just 
wouldn't recognize the change.  Crouch's change of name is 
not "true".  But Wormtail's situation is different.  As a rat, he was 
adopted into the Weasley family and *given*, freely given, the name 
Scabbers.  In at least some sense, the Weasleys were his adopted 
parents, so the name they gave him would have the same significance 
as his other given name.  So it would be possible for the map to show 
either name for Wormtail, depending on who was using the map.




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 17:57:10 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:57:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Romance Pairings...Harry/Cho
References: <8p5vfa+htls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B68575.A290209E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1087

Hi --

Steve Bates wrote:

> I also look to her reaction when Harry asked her to the dance in GoF:
> she seemed genuinely torn by the fact that she was already committed
> to going with Cedric.

Well, I will certainly add in this point, although I do disagree.  If
she was so torn, why did she continue to date Cedric for the remainder
of the school year?  We also don't know but what they weren't dating
before the Ball.  I had the distinct impression that she is a nice
person who felt bad turning Harry down -- he was so clearly
uncomfortable & she could tell it had been hard for him to screw up the
courage to ask her in the first place.  But, I didn't have the
impression that she was thinking "oh drat it all!  I wish he'd asked me
before I said I'd go with Cedric."

But, thanks for the thoughts -- it does give me something to add in the
"Pro H/Cho" column.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Wed Sep  6 18:56:10 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:56:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A  Character Study)
Message-ID: <v02140bd0b5dc437d6a21@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1088

>
>Hi --
>
>Warmsley wrote:
>
>> Nope, that doesn't work either, sadly - Harry saw Moody as Barty
>> Crouch, remember?
>
>Actually, just a technical correction -- he saw "Bartemius Crouch."  Had
>to point that out since it's the prime evidence that Harry is just Harry
>(not Harold or Henry).
>
>Penny
>
>
Oh, Penny.  You're relentless.  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Sep  6 17:59:45 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 6 Sep 2000 10:59:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animals on Marauder's Map (Was: Mrs Norris: A Character Study)
Message-ID: <20000906175945.18207.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1089

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From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 18:05:09 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:05:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Romance Pairings...Harry/Cho
References: <39B65E54.B57BB548@hic.net> <007901c01827$e16297a0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <39B68755.A9766F86@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1090

Hi --

Firebolt wrote:

> Then there are the qualities we see in her interactions, on the
> Quidditch field or off, with Harry. She has a good sense of Quidditch
> tactics - she knew that Harry had a better broom, but found a way to
> foil that which almost worked. She's sometimes his rival, and
> sometimes his ally, and is a good winner. To counterbalance that
> almost-voer-niceness, she also shows hints of a mischievous streak -
> she's grinning while she's bugging Harry during the match in PoA.

All of these are excellent points, and I've worked them in to the FAQ
already.  Thanks!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep  6 18:04:39 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:04:39 -0700
Subject: FW: Your Boggart
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEFJCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1091

I asked this over on HogwartsAdultSchool, and Penny asked me to raise the
topic here as well, so here's the message:

In Prisoner of Azkaban, the boggart turns into whatever each student fears
most.  In all cases, it was either a person or a creature, or an object
representing the fear (such as in Prof. Lupin's 'crystal ball' moon).  I
spent a bit of time trying to imagine what my boggart would look like when
it came out of the box.  I can't think of any person or creature (real or
imaginary) that I'm truly terrified of.  What if you're afraid of something
without physical form?  Suppose that Fear of Poverty was your biggest
concern.  Would the boggart simply turn into an image of yourself starving
in rags?  Would that actually strike FEAR into your heart at the sight, or
would you rush forward in pity to help yourself?  Weird.  I never could come
up with a satisfactory image that would succeed in frightening me, as the
boggart would mean to do.

What would YOUR boggart look like?


=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.anewlife.org/
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "If you want to fight, find another enemy." (Vernon Howard)
=============================================




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Sep  6 18:09:10 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 6 Sep 2000 11:09:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: Your Boggart
Message-ID: <20000906180910.18458.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1092

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From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 18:19:03 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:19:03 -0500
Subject: New Fanfic Uploaded
Message-ID: <39B68A97.8889B60D@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1093

Hi --

Just an announcement a new fanfic (2 out of 3 planned installments) has
been uploaded to our files section.  I uploaded it because the author
wishes to remain anonymous for the time being.  It's titled "Harry
Potter and the Birthday Present."  Since there are multiple chapters, I
set it up as a folder labelled "HP & the Birthday Present."

The author is using the pen name "PennyT115 at aol.com."  I SWEAR it is
*not* me.  I have no problem openly publishing my fanfic, which is
strictly limited to A Sirius Affair at the moment.  Plus, I hate aol
with a passion.  <g>  The author has good reasons why they adopted that
particular pen name, and maybe he/she will share those reasons at some
later time.  But, despite the coincidence, it's not me.

Anyway, I am anxiously awaiting the 3rd installment of this piece, and I
do recommend it!

BTW, speaking of fanfic being uploaded to our files.  I can delete "A
Sirius Affair" if we are running short on space.  I uploaded it there,
but it does exist on the Paradigm homepage and on fanfiction.net.  So,
I'll be all too happy to free up our space.  I wasn't aware of how much
allocated space we'd used when I uploaded those files last week.

Penny




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Sep  6 18:19:35 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:19:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: Your Boggart
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEFJCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <002501c0182f$085cc180$0c43ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1094


>
> What would YOUR boggart look like?
>

Penny and I had this discussion once....My bogart is an out of control
semi-truck hurtling towards me in an intersection at which I can't
stop....Maybe its a mechanimagus bogart...its not a living breathing thing,
but it is the image that frightens me the most.  Aren't you all glad I put
that lovely image out there today!

carole






From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 19:30:19 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:30:19 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Boggart
In-Reply-To: <002501c0182f$085cc180$0c43ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8p660b+tgh6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1095

At the risk of being unoriginal, I really sympathize with Ron and his 
fear of spiders--my greatest physical fear is of any giant bug, but 
especially a spider; the way a spider's face looks is just terrifying 
and revolting to me.




From sarvalsha at dellnet.com  Wed Sep  6 19:52:45 2000
From: sarvalsha at dellnet.com (sarvalsha at dellnet.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:52:45 -0000
Subject: Your Boggart
In-Reply-To: <002501c0182f$085cc180$0c43ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8p67ad+i21j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1096

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "lrcjestes" <lrcjestes at m...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > What would YOUR boggart look like?
> >
> 

My immediate reaction was a dementor. It's that wretched, frightening 
appearance linked to an even more frightening ability to suck every 
source of joy from a person's life that I find scary. But when 
someone else mentioned the fear of poverty, my mind ran to things 
like fear of looking stupid, fear of failure, and the related fear of 
success. But I think I will stick with the dementor. Being denied my 
memories, happy or otherwise, is a very frightening thought. 

Does anyone else remember a Warren Beatty movie called Heaven Can 
Wait? I absolutely loved that movie . . . right up until the end when 
they put the character into his permanent substitute body . . . 
without any memory of who he was. Totally spoiled the movie for me. 
But at least that character had the opportunity to build new happy 
memories. 

In any case, having the dementor as your boggart doesn't necessarily 
mean the dementor itself is your worst fear. Remember how Lupin 
reacted when Harry told him he had thought of the dementors instead 
of Voldemort. Lupin didn't take it to mean that Harry was afraid of 
the dementor, but that he was afraid of his own fear of the dementor. 

Another equally interesting question is 'If you looked in the Mirror 
of Erised, what would you see?'. For me a totally unexpected answer 
came unbidden while I was trying to think of an answer logically. 

This is one of the reasons I have become hooked on these books. If 
you read them with intent and intelligence, you end up thinking about 
your own life in new ways. I recommended the first book to someone at 
work whom I didn't know very well. She read it, then told me 'I read 
a lot of fantasy and am used to something more sophisticated'; I 
couldn't help thinking that if she didn't think SS was sophisticated, 
she wasn't paying attention.



Margaret




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 20:03:57 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:03:57 -0500
Subject: Boggart
Message-ID: <39B6A32D.15E00E90@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1097

Hi --

I'll give the same answer I gave when Sister Mary brought up this topic
on HogwartsAdultSchool --

The boggart question is easy for me: it would turn into a palmetto bug,
which is a large (2-3 inches) flying cockroach common to the Gulf States
in southeastern U.S.  They honestly have a wing span that would remind
you of a small bird, and they are the foulest creatures on this earth as
far as I'm concerned.  They are *huge* and very erratic &
unpredictable.  My husband swears that my "I've just seen a roach"
scream is very similar to someone's "I'm about to be murdered" scream.
It's a lifelong fear, and interestingly, my sister had the same
immediate response when I posed the "what would a boggart turn into if
it saw you" question to her.

I agree with Margaret -- anyone who thought SS wasn't sophisticated
didn't read very closely.  The Mirror of Erised question is tougher (and
perhaps more personal to many).  I'll give it some thought.

Penny




From the-robelady at home.com  Wed Sep  6 20:03:39 2000
From: the-robelady at home.com (Lisa Miles)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:03:39 -0700
Subject: I need your help
Message-ID: <004701c0183d$8d1243b0$c9710118@almda1.sfba.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1098

This off-topic but my daughter LOVES Harry Potter and I LOVE my daughter.

My daughter is 12. Her name is M.E. She started an egroup for
 Harry_Potter_Lover's. Everything was fine until egroups joined with yahoo
 and decided members, even established members must be 13 or have parental
 permission. It's obvious she does since she made me the owner. And if she
 didn't lie about her age she wouldn't lie about parental consent.

 I need you to email eGroups Customer Support on M.E. Miles' behalf to let
 them know their NEW policy is wrong.

 Their solution is for me to print out a consent form and fax it to them. I
 don't have a fax machine and it's difficult for a homebound, wheelchair
 person, the parent, to go pay to send a fax.The point is they are wrong!

 Below is my letter I sent and if I can get as many people as possible to
 email egroups on behalf of M.E. I'd appreciate it! Anybody you can get to
 help email egroups, feel free to pass this letter on. I sent it to
suggestion at egroups.co

 Thanks,

 Lisa Miles

> My daughter and I started the Harry Potter_lover's egroup so that she
could
> be involved in a "chat" room type of setting only with my involvement. I
am
> the owner and moderator for her group and everything meets with my
approval
> before being posted.
>
> My daughter could easily have misinformed you of her birthday but she
> didn't. Instead of rewarding her for not misrepresenting herself you are
> punishing her by taking away her egroup privileges. Are you aware of my
> daughter's being a straight A student, IN 8th grade, high school algebra
and
> her test scores show that NATIONALLY she is in the 90% above average range
> in all areas? Yet YOU who don't know my daughter have decide to restrict
> privileges which is a form of punishment.
>
> When yahoo changed their age policy, my daughter lost her email account
and
> went to GO in lieu of my using a credit card to keep her account open.
Now,
> there is no simple alternative. I am disabled, don't work and don't own a
> fax machine. Your solution is an inconvenience. It is wrong for you to
> decide what is best for my daughter and whether or not she needs to have
her
> privileges revoked. My daughter has never abused her privileges with
egroups
> and is an upstanding human being; for you to place restrictions on her
after
> the fact is wrong. She already had accounts with egroups and yahoo
> established and then YOU decide to change your rules. She shouldn't be
> affected by a NEW rule it should be a new policy for newcomers.
>
> Her address at yahoo was mem_05 at yahoo.com
> Her address now is nameno at go.com
> The egroup YOU banned her from is Harry_Potter_Lovers
>   Founded July 21, 2000
>
> A response to me, Lisa, (her mother) will be appreciated and an
explanation
> as to what she did wrong.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lisa Miles
>
> the-robelady at home.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 21:09:42 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:09:42 -0000
Subject: Christmas at Hogwarts.
Message-ID: <8p6bqm+5q87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1099

I think it was a few days ago that someone again brought up the issue 
of religion.  It is my opinion that they are Anglican but this is 
pure speculation. 

I was however looking through the sections of GoF that dealed w/ 
Christmas, and while it was true that most of the celebrations are 
not religiously defined I did come across this passage.

"...and the suits of armour that all been bewitched to sing carols 
whenever anyone passed them.  It was quite something to hear "O Come 
All Ye Faithful" sung by an empty helmeet that only knew half the 
words..."

I know this is a miniscule detail but there are many secular 
Christmas carols that she could have used instead.  Possibly this is 
simply one of her favourites....

Scott 




From larryj_39330 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 21:10:29 2000
From: larryj_39330 at yahoo.com (Larry Jones)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry Potter Petition
Message-ID: <20000906211029.19544.qmail@web4107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1100


I have started a Harry Potter Petition, to show
support to JK Rowling during upcoming lawsuit against
her, by MS N.K. Stouffer, who claims JK Rowling stole
the word Muggle from her.  If you would like to show
your support please sign the petition at 

http://www.i-charity.net/ptn/105

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep  6 21:21:56 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:21:56 -0500
Subject: WWII & HP
Message-ID: <39B6B574.310B0486@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1101

Hi everyone --

A friend of mine (who lurks on this list & is on vacation right now in
any case) was asking me about something she remembered reading in the
Archives about the witches & wizards of Britain "casting spells" against
Hitler during WWII.  She mentioned this to her daughter, and now her
daughter's social studies teacher is interested in her doing more
research on this topic.  Given our recent discussions, my curiosity was
piqued.  I started searching our new Archives and didn't find anything.
Since my friend & I also belong to hpanonymous, I searched those
Archives.  Bingo.

31 July 1940 is allegedly the date that the witches & wizards of Britain
raised a "cone of power" that "stopped" Hitler's planned invasion of
England.  My memory is that Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion sometime
in Sept 1940, when it became clear that the Luftwaffe would be unable to
achieve air superiority in time for a viable crossing of the English
Channel that year.  Sea Lion was never revived for a variety of
reasons.  Nonetheless, I'm very very intrigued by this "cone of power"
business.  The person later responded that her source for this
information was Llewellyn's Witches' Datebook  for 2000 (presumably the
31 July entry).  She says there's also a fictional account of the
raising of the "cone of power" entitled "Lammas Night" -- she couldn't
recall the author.  I just searched amazon, and the author is Katherine
Kurtz (1987) but the book is out of print.  I may see if I can find it
though, as I'm quite interested.

BTW, Brooks I'd be more than happy to beta-read your fanfic if you want
some comments.

Penny




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep  6 21:38:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:38:26 -0000
Subject: WWII & HP
In-Reply-To: <39B6B574.310B0486@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8p6dgi+luoq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1102

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:

> 31 July 1940 is allegedly the date that the witches & wizards of 
Britain
> raised a "cone of power" that "stopped" Hitler's planned invasion of
> England.  My memory is that Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion 
sometime
> in Sept 1940, when it became clear that the Luftwaffe would be 
unable to
> achieve air superiority in time for a viable crossing of the English
> Channel that year.  Sea Lion was never revived for a variety of
> reasons.  Nonetheless, I'm very very intrigued by this "cone of 
power"
> business.  The person later responded that her source for this
> information was Llewellyn's Witches' Datebook  for 2000 (presumably 
the
> 31 July entry). 

You might have a look at this particular page of the RAF's website 
commemorating the 60th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/phase2.html

> BTW, Brooks I'd be more than happy to beta-read your fanfic if you 
want
> some comments.

Eventually. :-)




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  6 21:39:30 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:39:30 -0000
Subject: FW: Your Boggart
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEFJCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8p6dii+d34f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1103

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> 
> In Prisoner of Azkaban, the boggart turns into whatever each 
student fears
> most.   [snip] What if you're afraid of something
> without physical form?  Suppose that Fear of Poverty was your 
biggest
> concern.  Would the boggart simply turn into an image of yourself 
starving
> in rags?  Would that actually strike FEAR into your heart at the 
sight, or
> would you rush forward in pity to help yourself?  Weird.  I never 
could come
> up with a satisfactory image that would succeed in frightening me, 
as the
> boggart would mean to do.


During the final exams in PoA, Hermiones boggart (IIRC) turns into 
Prof. McGonagal telling her that she has failed everything.  This, 
IMO, presents a solution to the above question, since Hermione is not 
afraid of McGonagal, rather of failing.  The boggart takes a form 
that communicates your fear directly or indirectly.  So if your 
greatest fear was of poverty, your boggart might turn into yourself 
in rags, as Sister M. suggested, or it might be a bill collector 
banging down your turn, or your landlord turning you out, or your 
children hungry and in rags, etc.
> 
> What would YOUR boggart look like?

Thats easy.  Like most PhD students, my greatest fear is that I will 
be working on this !@#)*&% dissertation until I die.  My boggart 
would be myself, age 90, in a wheelchair, working on the 317th draft 
of my dissertation at a desk in the old age home.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Sep  6 22:09:12 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:09:12 +0100
Subject: Archive, ratings and movie, and something off topic on mathematics
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEPLCHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1104

Denise wrote: "If Simon would be so kind as to post that url for the
completed archive again"

I believe you mean Paul (smitster). The url for the archive e-group is:
http://www.egroups.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

Joywitch wrote: "Personally, I am hoping that the HP movie has an NC-17
rating so that I wont have to watch it with a million screaming children,
but I guess thats not very likely."

I find that going to last showing of the day (usually 8pm for such movies)
means there are less little kids around. Having said that 10am and the
cinema is nearly empty! The last few kiddies' movies that I have seen (Toy
Story 2 and Stuart Little) were all with people in their late teens and
early twenties.

The PoU and SA rating problem would easily be solved by the UK 15 rating. I
am surprised that the US has no clear equivalent to this.

I have heard a rumour that Stephen Gateley (from Boyzone - Irish boy band)
is lined up for some cameo in the movie. I like the sound of this movie less
by the day! There was a letter in the Daily Mail today with some kid
complaining about the auditions process. His main complaint seemed to centre
on the fact that Daniel does not really like the books!

Here comes something off topic about mathematics, from the Daily Mail of a
few days ago (probably a quote from The Number Devil by Professor
Enzensberger as this is the books that is being discussed in the article).
"Maths is an art not a science. Each number has a set of special
characteristics equivalent to a personality. Once you start to mix numbers
you are working with something akin to an artist's palette."

Simon
--
Last Movie Seen:  Stuart Little
Current Book:     Small Gods by Terry Pratchett
Current CD:       Automatic for the People by REM
Current HP Quote: "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep  6 22:27:37 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:27:37 -0400
Subject: oddly disturbing merchandise
References: <968210560.16664@egroups.com> <39B5E2D9.7B40791@indy.net>
Message-ID: <39B6C4D9.38AE8465@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1105

http://www.bigstar.com/search/index.cfm/?fa=qt&titleid=1099182&shell=kid&banid=57977

The Magical World of Harry Potter: The Unauthorized Story of J.K. Rowling
"Ms. Rowling was an unknown before she became one of the best selling
authors in history, but
                she can hardly be called an overnight success. She wrote the
first Harry Potter book while
                unemployed, and outlined the stories of all the characters
in the Potter universe, mapping out in
                advance each book she planned to write. Several publishers
turned down her novel, all of whom
                currently butt their heads against the wall each time a new
Potter book hits the best seller list.
                This unauthorized documentary tracks the genesis of
Rowling's popular hero, as well as the
                personal turmoil that accompanied her rise to fame"

I dunno. Feels vaguely stalkerish to me.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep  6 23:16:08 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:16:08 -0500
Subject: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire
Message-ID: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1106

What I'm chewing over at the moment:

Here's a tip from one of my writing teachers, the most excellent Tim
Powers (author of, among other things, _The Anubis Gates_, _Stress of
Her Regard_, _On Stranger Tides_, _Last Call_, etc.) taught me:  Drama
is conflict. To get a novel moving, figure out what your hero wants the
most and what he fears the most. And then set it up so that he can't get
one without facing the other.  That drives your plot and develops your
characterizations, and you'll usually find several nifty themes along
the way.

A beautiful example of the way Rowling applies this principle is found
in _Prisoner of Azkaban_.  Harry wants to help win the House Cup, which
he can do by playing Quidditch, BUT he fears the dementors which have
already showed up at one Quidditch game.  He can't accomplish his goal
without facing his fear.  This leads to his lessons with Lupin ("That
suggests that what you fear the most is . . . fear.  Very wise"),
confronting the boggart, his consideration that he might not be able to
produce a patronus because he WANTS to hear his mother's voice, the plot
which follows re: Sirius' escape and how Harry must rescue him from the
dementors, etc., etc.  See, in other words, how the dramatic
confrontation between desire and fear which Rowling has set up leads to
plot, characterization, theme, and a whole lot of other yeasty stuff, as
my writing group says.

So I ask you, as we look at the series as a whole: what do you think
Harry wants the most? Oh, that's easy, you say--we saw it in the first
book. He saw what he wanted most in the Mirror of Erised: his family.
Yes, but his family is dead now, and Dumbledore warned him not to get
stuck dwelling on that desire.  He is developing familial ties of
another sort, but, after all, he will be weaning himself from them by
the end of the series: at seventeen, he is SUPPOSED to leave the nest.
What will he want the most, by the 7th book, as he grows up?  That the
people he is beginning to love and trust (his adopted family) will stay
safe, even as he is growing away from them? (aside: this is a big plot
point in PoU).  A clearer understanding of his own path (career? Love?
anything else???)  Or???

And what does he fear the most? Dementors, say the readers of Prisoner
of Azkaban--or
perhaps more generally, all the forces of evil that ally with Voldemort
(not to mention
Voldemort himself, particularly after the last chapters of GoF).

So, looking at the series as a whole, what do you think Harry wants the
most, and what does he fear the most?  And how do you think (or hope!)
Rowling will make those two things collide, and what will happen when
they do?

Peg

P.S. Extra points for anyone who wants to tackle these questions for any
other characters, too.  What does Snape fear the most v. want the most?
Ron?  Hermione?  Voldemort?  Etc.




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  6 23:47:21 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:47:21 -0000
Subject: Personal Boggarts
Message-ID: <8p6l29+69jd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1107

Hello:

My two Knuts...

If I ever were to run afoul of a boggart, it would immediately CRACK! 
and disappear-- I'm afraid of so many things...

--reptiles

--algebraic equations

--B's

--anything dead

--pimples

--tubas (being short sucks; sometimes, your six-foot-tall friends 
find it amusing to stick you in cases!)

--Britney Spears

--my Honors Biology teacher

--death

--the number 10

--flute trills

--tractor-trailers

--pep rallies

I really, really hope that boggarts are unable to turn into pep 
rallies, though...

--Alicia/Sue "Socionervous Breakdown" Spinnet 





From vjmerri at iquest.net  Wed Sep  6 23:58:29 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:58:29 -0000
Subject: Secrets (Long)
In-Reply-To: <39B3AF8F.C0604D34@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p6ln5+uev2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1108

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Another long-winded essay-post.
> Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret. 
(Incidentally, > the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of 
Snape's secret, > whatever it is, is one of the most effective 
arguments to me that Snape > is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the 
powers of light,  as surly as he > is.)

I agree that he is "allied with the powers of light" but do not agree 
that that necessarily makes him "Our Man Snape."   What Snape does 
goes way beyond surliness.  I'm not sure when you starting reading 
posts so I'll try to summarize shortly.  1) Snape is not just mean to 
Harry, he uses his power as a professor to do some really 
unconscionable things.  2)  when he gave Neville a detention for a 
mistake (melting a cauldron) he made Neville pickle frogs.  Now we 
all know, as does Snape, that Neville has a toad.  To have to pickle 
creatures so close to your own pet is just horrible.  3) he is 
fixated on a childish grudge, as when he went almost literally insane 
over catching Black and completely refusing to consider any other 
result.  he was essentially irrational.  4) he is constantly taking 
absurd point deductions from Griffindor out of nothing but spite   
5)  When Hermione got the long teeth in GoF, he sneered "I don't see 
any difference."  This to me is one of the worst, if not the worst, 
thing he has ever done.  He used his power as a teacher to step on a 
vulnerable 14 year old girl and then punished Ron and Harry when they 
defended her.  Oh and don't forget that he took ten points each from 
Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff in GoF because a young couple were necking 
in the bushes during the ball.  Naturally he wouldn't simply break 
them up or gently suggest that return to the dance floor.  He broke 
them apart with his wand and gave them point losses.

Snape may not be allied with the forces of evil, but his behavior is 
unconscionable and I don't forgive him for it, even if supposedly 
some of it is to make him look believable as a spy. He's a nasty ugly 
piece of work, and I mean ugly on the inside, not the outside.

Brooks said it best when quoting Churchill (which I'll probably 
mangle) "If Hitler was storming the gates of hell I'd have something 
good to say about Satan."  About all is said and done the best we may 
be able to say about Snape is that he doesn't want Voldemort to win.  
But that still makes him a pretty horrible character in my book.

Vicki






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Sep  7 00:03:56 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:03:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christmas at Hogwarts.
In-Reply-To: <8p6bqm+5q87@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000906165703.022f79d0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1109

At 09:09 PM 9/6/00 +0000, Scott wrote:
>I know this is a miniscule detail but there are many secular
>Christmas carols that she could have used instead.  Possibly this is
>simply one of her favourites....

Isn't part of the joke that "O Come All Ye Faithful" is sort of the
"Star Spangled Banner" of Christmas Carols, in that while many people
love it, few actually know all the words?




                                                 -- Dave




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 00:18:27 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:18:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WWII & HP  (*Lammas Night*)
References: <39B6B574.310B0486@hic.net>
Message-ID: <014401c01861$30c9cdc0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1110

It's a wonderful book, and I too am seeking it.  I read it once via the library, and my mouth dropped open.  It's very well down, but then again, I am a big fan of Katherine Kurtz (Deryni) anyway!

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Sep  7 00:49:21 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:49:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Archive, ratings and movie, and something off topic on mathematics
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEPLCHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac .uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000906173326.0219ccd0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1111

At 11:09 PM 9/6/00 +0100, Simon Branford wrote:
>I have heard a rumour that Stephen Gateley (from Boyzone - Irish boy band)
>is lined up for some cameo in the movie. I like the sound of this movie less
>by the day!

Is Rosie O'Donnell still up for Molly Weasley?  -- I still vote for Pauline
Collins (_Shirley Valentine_, _No Honestly!_) as Molly, and maybe even
real-life hubby John Alderton (if he's still around) as Arthur!

>There was a letter in the Daily Mail today with some kid
>complaining about the auditions process. His main complaint seemed to centre
>on the fact that Daniel does not really like the books!

Well on the one hand, between Shirley Temple and Judy Garland, Shirley
was far and away the more passionate Oz fan; yet there seems little doubt
which of them was the right one to play Dorothy.

On the other hand, I do get the feeling that Daniel was "anointed"
from the first, so maybe the auditions were not what they should have
been...

>"Maths is an art not a science. Each number has a set of special
>characteristics equivalent to a personality. Once you start to mix numbers
>you are working with something akin to an artist's palette."

Well, Math certainly isn't a science.  Science depends on empirical
observation and inductive reasoning.  Math is all abstractions.
That's why I think the attempts by some physicists to find the
long sought-after "Theory of Everything" using pure mathematics
is probably a blind alley.



                                                 -- Dave




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 00:55:38 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:55:38 -0400
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name (Dealing with the power of names in wicca religion)
References: <8p606r+986k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01de01c01866$6425bee0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1112

**but maybe the Wiccans reading this could tell me if 
a person's name has a special significance in the Wiccan religion.**



Ted Andrews, in a book  entitled The Sacred Power in Your Name, says:

    "Our names are much more than a label by which people can identify and stereotype us.  Our individual names contain much poerw and subconscious significance.  They are our most intimate energy signatures, and if used properly, they can lead us to spiritual knowledge, heightened consciousness, and higher initiation.

    "Our names trigger energy patterns that we have come to unfold, expand, develop, and overcome witin this lifetime.  Each soul comes into the world to learn certain lessons and to achieve certain goals to propel its environment.  Our name and all of its elements serve as a catalyst for specific energies to play upon us throughout this incarnation..." and it goes on to tell what the book teaches you to do, using the techniques shown...  It also has a Dictionary of Names containing 196 names and their meanings, each with an affirmation and meditation.

I will now look up and type about Harry!


Grins.


(and it's not listed, just Harold and Henry... sighs.  Ted Andews though is alive and tours New-Age/Metaphysical bookstores adn societies here in US--perhaps someone can approach him to ask about Harry's meaning?)

Oh well!
Dee
(Who is listed, as is my son Ian!)

For more info, send me email!  gypsycaine at yahoo.com . Amazon should sell this, if not I have a link to the store where I got it--they do mail order as well!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 02:32:15 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 02:32:15 -0000
Subject: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire
In-Reply-To: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p6unf+gope@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1113

This is interesting, and for once I can think of something to say in 
reply to your post! :-)

What is Harry's desire? IMO, it is much the same as the rest of us.  
He is seeking validation and even more importantly than that he wants 
to be seen for what he does and not just who he is.  People often 
look at celeberities or other public figures and think "Gee I wish I 
had your life."  I would say that while the glamour is well- 
glamourous, it would be a significant strain to continually live up 
to your name.  Make no mistake about, noteriety comes at a price and 
Harry is paying it as he will continue to do.  

(Back to the topic...)  I think Harry's greatest desire would be to 
be normal. Normal in a sense that he isn't judged by the 
circumstances of his past, as these are things he has no control over.
I think he really wants people to accept him as "enough".

So what is his greatest fear?  Well one could say that a person's 
greatest fear is the opposite of their desire-i.e. Harry is afraid 
that nobody will ever understand that he isn't "Famous Harry" but 
just "Harry." I really don't think this is the case.  I would 
probably venture to say that Harry's biggest fear is the uncertainty 
that has overshadowed his life.  He's never been able to confide in 
anyone and he grew up in an unloving household. During the "Dursely 
years" he was in a sense living a lie.  Then at eleven he goes to 
Hogwarts and finds out many overwhelming truths. There are all of the 
issues that Peg brought up about loyalty and secrets...and these 
things must be pretty difficult for Harry to face.  He doesn't know 
what the future holds and he still's not sure about the past...that 
would be a very hard thing to digest.

Now as far as the others I'm not really sure....I do think that Ron's 
greatest desire is opposite of Harry's.  All of his life he has been 
over shadowed by those that have done greater things or have been 
more successful.  That is true not only in his family but in his 
friends as well.  He is striving for the fame that Harry would 
eagerly shed.   (Trelawny mood coming on...) Look for conflicts in 
later books to reflect this!

Overall I think that our true fears and desires are not physical but 
come from inside of ourselves...though often we only relise them 
through physical manisfestations.  Maybe that is what Harry was 
seeing in the mirror of Erised during PS/SS, not  only that he wanted 
to see his family but that he wanted the love of a family to embrace 
him in times of trouble (something he is now getting w/ the Weasely's)

Well that's my take on things.  I would continue to tell about the 
other characters but I'm sure that you're tired of this post. 

Scott 




--------------------
 
 And what does he fear the most? Dementors, say the readers of 
Prisoner of Azkaban--or perhaps more generally, all the forces of 
evil that ally with Voldemort (not to mention> Voldemort himself, 
particularly after the last chapters of GoF).
 
So, looking at the series as a whole, what do you think Harry wants 
the most, and what does he fear the most?  And how do you think (or 
hope!) Rowling will make those two things collide, and what will 
happen when they do?

 Peg
 
 P.S. Extra points for anyone who wants to tackle these questions for 
any other characters, too.  What does Snape fear the most v. want the 
most? Ron?  Hermione?  Voldemort?  Etc.




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Sep  7 02:56:42 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:56:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Romance Pairings
Message-ID: <200009070306.e8736ov06940@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1114

OKay, you may have gotten more for Ron/Hermione by now but here's my 2 Knuts:

In CoS, EVERY single time Draco Malfoy says a wrod about Hermione, it's RON 
who goes after him (there are at least 3 examples of this, including the 
slug-belching incident)

In CoS, the sight of Hermione's empty chair in Potions is what gets Ron to 
agree to going to follow the spiders.

Ron and Hermione are in constant owl contact throughout the summers, even when 
neither of them can get in touch with Harry.

In GoF, there are 2 instances where Fleur kisses Ron and Hermione is described 
as "looking furious" both times.

Ron's obvious jealousy of Krum's relationship with Hermione

Hermione's reluctance to talk about Krum in front of Ron

Ron rushes to Hermione's aid when Draco's spell hits her teeth

In GoF, while Harry and Ron are fighting, Harry assumes that Hermione would 
rather go to Hogsmeade with Ron.



I had some other ones, but they've flown out of my mind, so I guess that's it 
for now.

Kathy
(who will read any H/H fic but is still an ardent R/H shipper!)




From recla at magick.net  Thu Sep  7 03:18:39 2000
From: recla at magick.net (Prof.  Dumbledore)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 03:18:39 -0000
Subject: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire
In-Reply-To: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p71ef+73ft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1115

> So, looking at the series as a whole, what do you think Harry wants 
the most, and what does he fear the most?  

Whew! good question Peg, and a variety of answers that could be 
presented, but what does he want the most.... Scott talked about 
being normal, but he was normal until he found out he was a wizard. 
It's only been a few years that he was something special to everyone 
else.
 
My impression is what Harry wants the most is family, that special 
bond that he has never gotten all his life since his mother was 
killed protecting him with her love. The ultimate sacrifice a family 
or parent can offer their child.  The Dursleys have never provided 
that special bond offered by family. In the mirror not only does he 
see his mother and father but his whole family all those people who 
were once part of his very early life but are no longer there.  I 
think this is why he has bonded so well with Sirius, he is the 
closest thing to family.. a god father.  

I sometimes think that Harry lack of a paralyzing real fear of 
Voldamort is that if he does die, in some way he will be joined with 
his family.  You will note the dementors cause him more real fear, 
because they force him to remember his family and how so very much he 
misses them.  Fortunately now he can banish them, with what might 
also be considered to be "family".. Prongs or his own version of his 
fathers. He is not looking for it but he is not afraid of death, he 
has been so close to it on several occasions.

But what does he fear.. whew !!  Even harder question.  
I guess I would say, not having his new family around him. He was so 
concerned about Sirius coming back, plus I'm sure he is growing 
closer to the Weasleys, Dumbledore, Hermonie and other friends. He 
risked his life to go find Ginny....   He would fear loosing any of 
them.  Not a good answer, but that is a hard one Peg. He's also still 
in that time of life when there are not alot of things you do fear.

Oh, well that's my 2 knuts worth.. 

Dennis







From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep  7 04:24:01 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 04:24:01 -0000
Subject: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
Message-ID: <8p7591+k3cg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1116

As has been discussed before, while the HP books fit into the 
categories of *childrens literature* and *fantasy* they also have 
elements of being a mystery novel.  JKR has said that she developed 
an outline for the entire series before she started writing the 
books; so we know that she has a general idea of where the plot is 
going.  Obviously there is some big mystery about James and Lily and 
why Voldy wanted to kill them; also JKR seems to be preparing us for 
a major good vs. evil epic battle.  Solving the mystery and deciding 
the battle seem to be two big unanswered questions of the series.  
JKR generally seems to using all the standard myths and the legendary 
plotlines, but what if she decided to go against the grain - what if 
she has decided to defy every convention of literature and cinema and 
allow the BAD guys to win in the end?  Yep, thats all folks - 
Dumbledore, Harry, the Weasleys, all the good guys dead - Voldemort 
takes over the world, Lucious Malfoy is Minister of Magic, we all 
live unhappily ever after.  I think there would be rioting in the 
streets if she did that, but what other author could get away with 
it?  I doubt she will, but it is interesting to think about.  It 
seems to be a basic human instinct to want the good guys to win - I 
know I still cheer every time the Death Star blows up even though I 
have seen it 100s of times.  Would we be able to stand having the rug 
pulled out from under us?

OK, its unlikely that JKR will allow evil to prevail, but it seems to 
me she is preparing us for some sort of major surprise, so it must 
have something to do with the Potters death.  Is it my imagination 
that we are being set up for a Book 7 bombshell?




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 04:43:50 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 04:43:50 -0000
Subject: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
In-Reply-To: <8p7591+k3cg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p76e6+4u3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1117

Oh, I think "bombshell" will barely begin to describe it.  She has 
already dropped bombshells (starting with Quirrell in SS) at least 
once a book; book 7 will likely end in the equivalent of a nuclear 
explosion.
Killing off a major character in GoF was a major turning point; you 
just do not do that in 99% of children's literature.  Interesting 
that Cedric's death seems to be totally senseless and arbitrary; it 
did not serve either Voldemort or GoF's plot.  If senseless cruelty 
is now a part of the HP world, almost anything goes in the future.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 07:12:30 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 08:12:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: Your Boggart
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000907071230.009ca56c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1118

Sister Mary Lunatic asked about Boggarts and Penny mentioned the Mirror of
Erised, which was presumably raised by someone else along the way, but I'm
still ambling through today's messages. I'm going to risk cutting in here
with my comments.

***

I agree with SML's point about symbolic Boggarts not being frightening in
themselves.  Similarly, my greatest fears and desires cannot easily be
represented by recognisable images [everyone choruses "Boo!!! Another cop
out!"].  

I realise that with Boggarts the whole point is to distil a fear of the
unknown, death or failure into a physical object or situation, but my waking
brain cannot come up with something that represents and elicits such
feelings. If I chose, say, fear of public speaking (which might be a fear of
failure), how on earth would that manifest itself as a Boggart?  It's really
difficult to encapsulate a phobia like that. In a dream state, I would
probably have no trouble coming up with something recognisable, but it would
be symbolic rather than literal and, as SML said, not necessarily
frightening. Taking this a little further, I would argue that an irrational
fear of spiders or snakes, for example, is not a fear of the creatures
themselves but a fear response as a conduit for a more deep-seated fear.  

When it comes to seeing your greatest desire in the Mirror of Erised, I'm
sure many people would picture some wild, personal sexual fantasy rather
than something mundane or altruistic, such as a new sports car or a symbolic
representation of 'an end to starvation'. I'm sure that when Dumbledore said
he saw socks in the mirror, that was just his way of avoiding exposing his
steamy masturbatory fantasies to a pre-pubescent boy in a dark room.  Or
maybe the old mage really is a sock fetishist.

Anyway, when it comes to my inner thoughts, I'm not telling ;)

Neil
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 10:51:35 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:51:35 +0100
Subject: Boggart
References: <968271476.8020@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B77337.D38CD2E6@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1119

> On  Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:03:57 -0500 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net> wrote

>
> >The boggart question is easy for me: it would turn into a palmetto bug,
> >which is a large (2-3 inches) flying cockroach common to the Gulf States
> >in southeastern U.S.

I am right with you on that one! When I lived in Florida they were an ongoing horror for me so
much so that even the sight of large cockroaches on TV can make me almost sick. Is this a
specific phobia as with spiders?

I had heard that cockroaches have a secretion that some people are extremely allergic to and
that creates the fear reaction (some revolting experiment I read about).

One vivid memory I have from when I'd been in London about 5 years was of waking from a
really bad daymare of a cockroach being in the room with me (I'd fallen asleep during an afternoon).
going out into the kitchen to make a cup of tea to find a somewhat sleepy but very real large
roach in the hallway. We though afterwards it may have been imported in some
fruit - came home with the shopping though heard that area of London did have some
problems with large roaches that had escaped from university lab or the zoo or something.

This may have been urban myth though in that specific neighbourhood I did have a few roach encounters
which were never repeated in other areas of London.


Vivienne







From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Sep  7 12:14:57 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 07:14:57 -0500
Subject: Our Man Snape (was Re: Secrets (Long))
References: <8p6ln5+uev2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B786C1.81DAF96C@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1120



Vicki Merriman wrote:..

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> > Another long-winded essay-post.
> > Dumbledore also keeps Snape's secret, and Lupin's secret.
> (Incidentally, > the fact that  Dumbledore respects the integrity of
> Snape's secret, > whatever it is, is one of the most effective
> arguments to me that Snape > is Our Man Snape, truly allied with the
> powers of light,  as surly as he > is.)
>
> I agree that he is "allied with the powers of light" but do not agree
> that that necessarily makes him "Our Man Snape."   What Snape does
> goes way beyond surliness.  I'm not sure when you starting reading
> posts so I'll try to summarize shortly.

Oh, I agree absolutely.  In fact, just this week, I wrote almost exactly the
same thing to another person on another board who said in passing that Snape
was an "excellent" teacher.  As a former teacher myself, I brindled at
that.  He's a horrible teacher--knows his stuff but is brutal to the
students--and he's a rotten skunk, and I really wish he'd do something about
his halitosis.

The point I was making, and I'll try to explain it again (briefly; I gotta
get to work) is that as a writer I am really intrigued by what Rowling is
doing here: I can't think of another fictional character who occupies this
same fictional niche: Snape somehow or other made a decision that allied him
with the good--and Dumbledore, our moral compass vouches for him--but just
about everything else in his nature seems to ally him with evil.  How can
that one decision--and we don't yet know what it is--outweigh all his
horribleness?  How horrible can you be and still be a hero, as long as
you've got your feet set firmly on one true/good decision?  This is the
reason why Snape has become such an intriguing character to me.

(Can anyone else think of fictional characters in other books who are in a
similar position?  I really can't, or at least I can't at this time of the
morning.)

> Snape may not be allied with the forces of evil, but his behavior is
> unconscionable and I don't forgive him for it, even if supposedly
> some of it is to make him look believable as a spy. He's a nasty ugly
> piece of work, and I mean ugly on the inside, not the outside.
>
> Brooks said it best when quoting Churchill (which I'll probably
> mangle) "If Hitler was storming the gates of hell I'd have something
> good to say about Satan."

Another line which comes to mind is "He may be a sonofabitch, but he's OUR
sonofabitch."

I think that is about exactly what I meant when I called him "Our Man
Snape."  Again, as I've said before, irony doesn't always come across very
well on email.  (I never learn, I keep trying to use it.)

Gotta run

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 13:57:57 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:57:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: Your Boggart
References: <1.5.4.32.20000907071230.009ca56c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <003901c018d3$a4cdf120$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1121

I think my worst fear is something happening to Ian.  I would prolly see him dying if I met a boggart, and I think any parent would understand this fear.

As for the mirror?  My desire is to be able to support Ian and I, have a good house, and a nice car (maybe a Saturn SL-1?), money for his college education, plenty of food since I spent a time without food, and enough money to buy what I want without having to worry if I am robbing the electric bill or the like.  Prolly represented by myself and Ian standing in front of said house, with a suit on, and the car in the driveway beside me.

(BTW, that's my goal in going to school like I did--getting a great paycheck in order to provide for him.)

:)
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 14:10:46 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:10:46 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape (was Re: Secrets (Long))
In-Reply-To: <39B786C1.81DAF96C@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p87l6+ute7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1122

Oh, yes, I agree absolutely that Snape is just an utter bastard.  But 
his being Our Man Snape comes down to a little more than one decision 
in the far-off past.  As impure as his motives might have been, he 
did work to save Harry's life in PS.
He apparently did some very dangerous spy work the first time Voldy 
was around.
And in GoF he proved to be unswervingly loyal to Dumbledore in what 
was and is a very dificult situation.  He could have returned to 
Voldy like the other Death Eaters or just run away like Karkaroff.
I am of the opinion that he should be cut at least a little slack, 
after what he has probably been through.  Still doesn't make the way 
he treats the kids right, but makes things a little more 
understandable.




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep  7 14:14:55 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:14:55 -0000
Subject: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
In-Reply-To: <8p7591+k3cg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p87sv+eeju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1123

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
 
> JKR generally seems to using all the standard myths and the 
legendary 
> plotlines, but what if she decided to go against the grain - what
if 
> she has decided to defy every convention of literature and cinema 
and 
> allow the BAD guys to win in the end?  Yep, thats all folks - 
.....
>  I think there would be rioting in the 
> streets if she did that, but what other author could get away with 
> it?  

Warning: Spoiler for a comic book series:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
.
S
P
A
C
E

Alan Moore : _Watchmen_.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep  7 14:23:01 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:23:01 -0000
Subject: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
In-Reply-To: <8p7591+k3cg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p88c5+jv4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1124

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

> OK, its unlikely that JKR will allow evil to prevail, but it seems 
to 
> me she is preparing us for some sort of major surprise, so it must 
> have something to do with the Potters death.  Is it my imagination 
> that we are being set up for a Book 7 bombshell?

I was wondering today if maybe Book 7 might end with a trick out of 
Diane Duane's wizard books - get a VERY LARGE NUMBER OF WIZARDS 
TOGETHER who go up against Voldy united.  He can't Kedavra them all.

Actually, of course, Voldy cannot hold a candle to the ultimate enemy 
in the Duane books - in _High Wizardy_, when the heroes are 
teleporting from extra-solar planet to extra-solar planet, in 
pursuit of a missing wizard, the Adversary blows up the star of one
of the planets they land on, to try to kill them before they work out
the parameters for their next jump..... 

-Brooks




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 14:26:50 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:26:50 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape  
In-Reply-To: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1125

Peg wrote: 

<<P.S. Extra points for anyone who wants to tackle these questions 
for any other characters, too.  What does Snape fear the most v. want 
the most? Ron?  Hermione?  Voldemort?  Etc.>>

As I'm making my feeble attempt to understand Snape through writing 
fanfiction, I think I'll try for extra points here.  Harry, Ron and 
Hermione are all mysteries to me, but I do have some idea about 
Snape.  At least, I'll try for his greatest fear.        

I think Snape's greatest fear is one a lot of people have - the fear 
of failing.  The fear of being wrong.  The fear of being mocked.  A 
great many of Snape's actions are specifically to eliminate the 
possibility of any of these things happening.  

So he always has to get in first with the insult, before anyone can 
insult him.  He mocks other people who fail, like Neville, to make 
sure people know he is better than Neville.  He puts down Hermione 
whenever he can, because she is a real rival.  He cannot ever seem to 
get the better of her in a battle of wits (as we see in the very 
first Potions lesson), so he uses his other weapons to hurt her, like 
his comment about her teeth.  He is exerting all his power to prevent 
anyone from appearing better, in his mind, than he is. 

He's hyper-critical.  Every flaw, every failing, he points out.  I 
cannot imagine that Snape is not equally critical of himself, and 
this is one of the causes of his fear of failing.  It is a vicious 
circle.  

I'm not Snape's apologist, and I don't believe that any of this 
exonerates him.  I'm just trying to pick out what I think are the 
reasons behind his behaviour.  

But he's working for Dumbledore.  Dumbledore does not seem to 
interfere with the way Snape runs his lessons (though we do hear of 
him stepping in to prevent Snape from failing Harry in Potions), he 
does not show any signs of disliking Snape, and he TRUSTS Snape.  

Therefore, there must be things about Snape which we don't yet know, 
things that make Dumbledore trust him.  

One thing I'd like to pick up is Snape's sense of duty and 
responsibility.  Why would anyone lacking in a very powerful sense of 
duty try to protect Harry for the reasons Dumbledore explained?  
Somewhere, in some twisted way, Snape has a sense of honour and 
duty.  In other words, he knows what the right thing to do is, and 
he's going to do it.  What he does to people along the way is not 
part of his duty.  He does not live by Dumbledore's moral codes, but 
he supports them against Voldemort.  

I think that we will find that Snape feels it is his duty to support 
Dumbledore, and Dumbledore understands this.  The action that 
precipitated this feeling, I don't know.  Dumbledore treats it as a 
private matter in GoF ('That, Harry, is a matter between Professor 
Snape and myself.')  Incidentally, this is what I'm trying to guess 
in my fanfic.  

A side question, and one thing that makes me feel some doubt towards 
Snape, is why he is so fond of Draco Malfoy, and why he reacted when 
Harry mentioned that Lucius Malfoy was a Death Eater.  There seems to 
be some tie between Snape and the Malfoys.  Possibly this is another 
duty Snape owes, perhaps to Lucius Malfoy.  Any theories on this?

And a second question.  Does Snape share the prejudices which seem 
common to Slytherins?  Is he prejudiced against Muggle-borns, 
werewolves and giants?  I haven't ever noticed him being prejudiced 
against Muggle-born students, or against Hagrid and the giants.  His 
hatred of werewolves is understandable, having been attacked by one.  

That's probably enough of my ramblings.  I'd love to know what other 
explanations people have for Snape's behaviour and Dumbledore's trust 
in him.  

~Blaise.  

        





From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep  7 14:32:35 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:32:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p88u3+dmsh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1126

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
wrote:

(etc.)

Good analysis Blaise - let me add one more thought  - a pet theory of 
mine is that it was Snape who got the word to Dumbledore that Voldy 
was on his way to the Potters, but it was too late to help.

-Brooks




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 16:12:09 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:12:09 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8eop+5013@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1127

<<> And a second question.  Does Snape share the prejudices which 
seem 
> common to Slytherins?  Is he prejudiced against Muggle-borns, 
> werewolves and giants?  I haven't ever noticed him being prejudiced 
> against Muggle-born students, or against Hagrid and the giants.>>

I have always thought that Snape, at least, doesn't share the 
prejudice against the Muggle-born, since he never seems to have used 
Hermione's parentage against her in an argument.  You can bet that he 
would have brought it up at some point as a jab to her if he had 
anything against Muggle-born wizards.




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 16:21:00 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:21:00 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p8eop+5013@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8f9c+rddh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1128

And as a postscript to that, isn't it interesting that the reason 
Snape gives for hating Our Heroes are at least based in reality, at 
some point.  He claims to hate Harry because he is a show-off and 
thinks the rules don't apply to him, and to hate Hermione because she 
is an annoying know-it-all.  Well, these are exaggerations, and even 
if they weren't they wouldn't justify the way Snape treats them.  But 
there is at least a grain of truth in what he says (no, I am not 
implying that Harry is a show off in the sense that he craves 
attention, but that he always feels like he has to take too much on 
himself.  This *is* a character flaw of his,)
I would feel better about Snape if he were equally critical of the 
Slytherin students.  Since I think that Snape favors Malfoy because 
he is/was friends with his father, and that friendship will almost 
certainly end after the events at the end of GoF, I am looking 
forward to possibly seeing Draco get a rude awakening in Book 5 when 
Snape starts treating him the same way he treats Harry, Ron, and 
Hermione.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Sep  7 16:25:10 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:25:10 -0700
Subject: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire
Message-ID: <39B7C15C.E9292065@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1129


	I'm new here, but if I can stick my two knuts in, I would say,judging
from the glitter in Snape's eye at the end of GoF, that what he wants
most is to hurt Voldy and his greatest fear is that that snot Potter is
going to screw things up.



From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Sep  7 18:05:46 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:05:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Our Man Snape (was Re: Secrets (Long))
Message-ID: <v02140bddb5dd892eef95@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1130


>(Can anyone else think of fictional characters in other books who are in a
>similar position?  I really can't, or at least I can't at this time of the
>morning.)
>
One that comes to mind, Peg, is Quark on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.  He's
a swindler, almost a pimp, a criminal...and yet he's a good guy.  It helps
that he's nowhere NEAR as personally hostile as Snape is.

I can't think of anyone who's as horrible as Snape and yet a good guy.
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep  7 17:29:01 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 17:29:01 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p8f9c+rddh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8j8t+2rar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1131

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> And as a postscript to that, isn't it interesting that the reason 
> Snape gives for hating Our Heroes are at least based in reality, at 
> some point.  He claims to hate Harry because he is a show-off and 
> thinks the rules don't apply to him, .....  Well, these are 
>exaggerations, and even 
> if they weren't they wouldn't justify the way Snape treats them.  
>But 
> there is at least a grain of truth in what he says (no, I am not 
> implying that Harry is a show off in the sense that he craves 
> attention, but that he always feels like he has to take too much on 
> himself.  This *is* a character flaw of his,)


As I have remarked before, I think Harry should have gone to Snape at 
some point and thanked him for working to protect his life in the 
first Quidditch match and apologized for suspecting him instead of 
Quirrel.  That might have done wonders for their relationship.

-BR




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 18:16:54 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:16:54 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8m2m+tfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1132

Blaise wrote, about Snape:

> But he's working for Dumbledore.  Dumbledore does not seem to 
> interfere with the way Snape runs his lessons (though we do hear of 
> him stepping in to prevent Snape from failing Harry in Potions), he 
> does not show any signs of disliking Snape, and he TRUSTS Snape.  
 
> Therefore, there must be things about Snape which we don't yet 
know, things that make Dumbledore trust him.  

The fact that Dumbledore likes and trusts Snape may appear to be a 
contradiction, but only if we assume that Dumbledore is a complete 
force for good - I'm not convinced that he is so benign.  

We learned a lesson about Snape (and about JK Rowling) in '...the 
Philosopher's Stone'.  All the way through the story, Snape was being 
signalled as the baddie and at the eleventh hour it was revealed that 
he had been trying to stop the real villain of the piece. My 
conclusion (today, at least) is that Dumbledore is portrayed as being 
so good that he must be bad (or at least have an evil streak). 
Theoretically, he's the last person we'd expect to be the baddie, but 
his story arcs over all seven books, rather than just the one.  JKR 
might this very minute be soaking in her bath, thinking: 'HA! How 
about that for a surprise denouement?!'  

I won't repeat my previous theory about Snape in its entirety, but I 
said something akin to Snape being jealous of Harry because he had 
usurped him from his position as 'first officer' to Dumbledore.  
Harry is Dumbledore's proteg? and Snape resents that, because he 
wanted to show his mettle in the fight against Voldemort (Brooks 
seems to concur on this point).  IMO, Snape's behaviour is borne 
mostly out of bitterness and envy, with a touch of residual 
resentment towards James Potter.        

Neil





From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep  7 18:28:40 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:28:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Your Boggart
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000907071230.009ca56c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEGOCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1133

I think the thing that trips me up when thinking about what my personal
boggart would look like is the definition that it becomes "What you fear
most."  If you took away that imperative, then the boggart could turn into
any number of frightening "things" that I would only fear if I happened to
be face to face with them.  For example: a swarm of killer bees coming at
me, or an 18-wheel semi truck headed straight for me on the highway, or me
drowning or seeing my family perishing in a fire.  That's scary stuff, but
not something I think about when I wake up at 3 a.m.  It's those
middle-of-the-night cold-sweat dream bogies that really make you uneasy.



=============================================
Link of the Day:  http://208.50.132.14/Reflections/are_you_afraid.htm
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "It takes a truly moral man or woman to simply leave other people
alone."                          Cosmic Command, #981 (Vernon Howard)
=============================================





From Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 18:28:16 2000
From: Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com (Katie Bell)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Secrets and Boggarts
Message-ID: <20000907182816.26563.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1134

This was inspired by Peg's wonderful discussion of
secrets, which made me lie awake for hours, thinking.

The boggart and the Mirror of Erised are opposites,
yes, and there's something that came to my mind; the
Mirror reveals things only to you, and you can choose
who to tell. (Harry tells Ron what he sees; Dumbledore
doesn't tell, IMO, the truth.)  But the Boggart is
different. Anyone who's there can see what you fear
the most, even if you might not want them to. I don't
think Remus really would want the students to realize
that his greatest fear was the full moon, after all.

Is there something in this?  Is it that fears are
something that we should face and conquer, and others
can help us with that, while our deepest desires are
often quite personal?  I know very well that I would
never tell anyone except perhaps a close friend what I
would see in the Mirror, not because it's shameful, as
someone suggested, but because it's personal. 

Or might it be that the Mirror is 'good' magic and so
won't reveal others' secrets, and Boggarts are 'evil'
creatures?  That sort of ties in with what Peg said. 
Any thoughts on that?

And one unrelated note: Thinking about LOTR.  Does it
seem to anyone else that there could be a similarity
between Wormtail, our old pal, and Wormtongue,
Theoden's corrupt advisor, who joined Sauruman?  If
so, might this indicate that perhaps Harry won't kill
Voldie... but Peter just might stab his master in the
back.  Or am I reaching *way* too far?

Katie Bell

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 19:17:52 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:17:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
References: <8p8m2m+tfa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01e501c01900$520186a0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1135


The fact that Dumbledore likes and trusts Snape may appear to be a 
contradiction, but only if we assume that Dumbledore is a complete 
force for good - I'm not convinced that he is so benign.  

We know that Snape knows his subject very well.  That doesn't always translate to a nice teacher, but let me give this example, please bear with me.

In school these last two years two teachers shared an office.  I (and my fellow classmates) had both teachers.  Among the majority, Mr. B was considered a horrible teacher, and Mr. T, a sweetheart.  Mr. T was very easy going, and his coursework was very professional (RPG), but he didn't make the class challenging (It was like being handed the answers).  Don't get me wrong, I love Mr. T!  He's a wonderful, Gilderoy without the egotisticalness person!  Mr. B made things very tough for the class.  He wasn't a grumpy person, like Snape on occasion, but just like Snape he didn't stand for any goofing off in his class (unlike Mr. T).  You HAD to attend each class, or give account of your whereabouts.  The assignment was due on time, or you got points off (He gave extra points for being earlier, though).  If you sat programming (COBOL, btw, grins!) and ran into problems, don't go to him.  His answer?  It's in your books and notes.  Go find it.  Everyone hated him.  Most of the class got horrible grades (I did B & C, COBOL I & II), and over half the class dropped.  For a further example, we started COBOL one with 30 + people.  By the end of COBOL 2, we had 3.  (We also had him for SQL/ORACLE 7)

Where am I heading with this?  If today, I was to get a job with the programming language of my choice guess which one it would be?  COBOL.  I can still recall what I learned.  He made it over the top hard, and I learned via that.  His methods might not have been popular, but the end-result is that those of us (the 3) who survived learned a hell of alot about the language, and will be able to survive in the real world programming it need be.  I barely recall RPG (AS400), and am hoping if I get a job, they'll help me alot the first few weeks!  Which was the better teacher, Mr. T or Mr. B?

We learned a lesson about Snape (and about JK Rowling) in '...the 
Philosopher's Stone'.  All the way through the story, Snape was being 
signalled as the baddie and at the eleventh hour it was revealed that 
he had been trying to stop the real villain of the piece. My 
conclusion (today, at least) is that Dumbledore is portrayed as being 
so good that he must be bad (or at least have an evil streak). 
Theoretically, he's the last person we'd expect to be the baddie, but 
his story arcs over all seven books, rather than just the one.  JKR 
might this very minute be soaking in her bath, thinking: 'HA! How 
about that for a surprise denouement?!'  

Neil

How about this idea for Dumbledore' s dark side?  You know all those socks that the "washing machine ate?"  Dumbledore's out there, hoarding them, because you can never have enough socks.  When the student's clothes come back from the elves (that is assuming that they are the laundress/ers), at least one sock disappears, and makes its way into Dumbledore's dresser door.  How's that for evil?  (If you have ever searched for a missing sock to your favorite pair, you will understand just how evil this can be!)

;D
Dee



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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep  7 19:25:47 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:25:47 -0000
Subject: From September 6, 2000 USA Today
Message-ID: <8p8q3r+koq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1136

Regarding banning books - this was the "Pro banning books" editorial.
What do you all think of this woman's perspective? Especially 
Paragraph 5, last sentence...

Protect our kids 
By Linda Harvey


The first duty of every parent is to keep a child out of harm's way. 
Some parents, particularly Christians, view the Harry Potter series 
as potentially harmful because witchcraft is portrayed as endearing 
and innocuous. But others disagree. So how do public schools choose 
on-site material?

One option is to include ''everything''; another is to choose wisely, 
according to pre-established guidelines. Many schools, however, 
actually apply standards subjectively.

No school includes everything. Few public schools would accept books 
advocating drunken driving, bulimia or rape. And it's rare to find 
novels in school libraries about teens who proclaim salvation through 
Jesus Christ.

Too often, written policies are discreetly violated by schools behind 
the scenes. Often, traditional Christian or conservative viewpoints 
get the stealth censorship ax. Clear codes applied consistently would 
forestall unrealistic expectations.

In America, we used to have such a code, though largely unwritten. 
Judeo-Christian standards were tacitly agreed upon by most parents 
and school staff. But as biblical morality vanishes, chaos becomes 
its substitute. It's called by another name -- ''tolerance''-- but 
confusion and dishonesty are the actual results. Witchcraft is being 
pitched to our kids on TV shows, on the Internet, in teen novels. 
There are numerous how-to manuals on rituals and initiation rites, so 
curiosity can quickly become practice. And Harry Potter may stimulate 
occultic interest, along with other questionable values.

In Harry Potter, children are frequently the authority figures. 
Traditional values (read: ''anti-sorcery'') are ignorant, even evil. 
Revenge is sometimes justified. So if 12-year-olds go from reading 
Harry Potter to heightened rebellion and spell casting, that's 
perfectly acceptable to most parents, right?

Maybe it's time for an honest debate about where we are heading 
without biblical values. Do we really want our kids involved in some 
of these alternatives? Sure, we want children to read, but the Harry 
Potter phenomenon presents us with a crucial choice. We can choose to 
honor commandment No. 1 -- the one about having no other gods -- or 
we can take the road more often traveled these days and thumb our 
nose at our gracious creator. Let's hope U.S. schools adopt standards 
that don't dishonor the one who invented words in the first place.


Linda Harvey is president of Mission: America.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep  7 19:27:35 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:27:35 -0000
Subject: Also from September 6, 2000 USA Today
Message-ID: <8p8q77+fcjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1137

This is the "Against Book Banning" editorial - (also, are all of you 
members of Muggles for Harry Potter yet?)

Harry Potter faces biggest foe yet in book censors 

School's open, and Harry Potter is under attack -- again.

This time the enemy is not the fictitious forces of evil whom the 
young apprentice-wizard fights off in the wildly popular books by 
J.K. Rowling. It's the very real forces of self-appointed censors who 
want to tell other people's children what they can read.

In just the opening days of the school year, the American Library 
Association already has received reports from Texas, South Carolina 
and Illinois of new efforts to purge Harry and his friends from 
schools.

It may sound strange to the millions of children and adults who 
embrace the Potter stories for their imaginative charm, but some 
object to Harry and his friends at Hogwarts School on grounds they 
may draw youngsters into the occult. In addition to being No. 1 on 
best-seller lists for months, the Potter books also were the No. 1 
target last year of efforts to pressure libraries and schools into 
making the books difficult or impossible to get. But Harry is in good 
company.

Of the Modern Library's 100 best novels of the 20th century, one-
third have been removed or threatened with removal from bookstores, 
libraries and schools at some point. Among the 10 most-challenged 
books of 1999, Harry Potter edged out such perennial targets as the 
works of Judy Blume, Margaret Atwood, Maya Angelou and John Steinbeck.

And the assaults on freedom to read don't come just from those whose 
mission is to spare the world from thinking about sex or coarse 
language. Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn remains one of 
the most-challenged books of the decade because of attacks from the 
politically correct espousing an ostrichlike attitude toward the 
abuse experienced by blacks in the 19th century.

The Library Association counted 500 formal protests and demands for 
withdrawal of books erupting in more than half the states last year. 
The good news is that in most communities there is resistance.

In Zeeland, Mich., the schools panicked in front of criticism, barred 
all classroom reading of Harry Potter books last year and removed 
them from open shelves of the libraries. But parents, students and 
teachers, seizing the word for the non-magical ordinary people in 
Rowling's books, organized ''Muggles for Harry Potter.'' 

They circulated a petition, spoke up at school board meetings and 
held protests. The superintendent backed down, removing most of his 
restrictions. Muggles is now a nationwide movement, with more than 
13,000 members as of last week. And the youngsters involved are 
getting a valuable civic lesson: that access to books is not 
automatic and must be fought for.

As plucky Harry surely knows, a triumph for freedom today doesn't 
mean there won't have to be another battle tomorrow.Today's debate: 
Back-to-school censorship Groups across country renew efforts to ban 
books from schools. 





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 19:29:59 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:29:59 -0000
Subject: Secrets and Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <20000907182816.26563.qmail@web3702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8p8qbn+3s19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1138

<<> And one unrelated note: Thinking about LOTR.  Does it
> seem to anyone else that there could be a similarity
> between Wormtail, our old pal, and Wormtongue,
> Theoden's corrupt advisor, who joined Sauruman?  If
> so, might this indicate that perhaps Harry won't kill
> Voldie... but Peter just might stab his master in the
> back.  Or am I reaching *way* too far?>>

I could waste several posts talking about just LOTR, but I will try 
to keep it to just this one.  I wonder if the Wormtail/Wormtongue 
name similarity might be deliberate.  There are some very interesting 
similarities between the two characters, now that I think of it: both 
were spies for a much bigger baddie, and when finally confronted 
about this, both try to talk their way out of it at first but then 
run back to their master.
Then again, the way Wormtail was spared and the foreshadowing that 
some good would come of taking pity on him sounds more like what 
happened with Gollum, and in his case the foreshadowing was 
fulfilled.  I haven't noticed much else in the way of similarities 
between JKR and LOTR (significant to me because these are the only 
two fantasy books I've read and enjoyed, unless you count the 
wonderful Narnia books), except for those spiders in CoS; I was 
amused to no end at how JKR seems to have lifted them straight from 
The Hobbit.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep  7 19:55:14 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:55:14 -0000
Subject: contest entry
Message-ID: <8p8rr2+2khl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1139

This is my son's entry for the Harry Potter Changed My Life contest:

My parents tell me that the first Harry Potter book came out in the 
US the month I began growing in my mummy's tummy. While I grew,
they 
read the books to me. I first learned what their voices sounded like 
through words like "Quidditch", "Dumbledore" and
"Dobby", although I 
didn't know what those words meant. 
When my mummy went into labor on July 31, 1999, she brought the first 
Harry Potter book to the hospital, and she read to me between 
contractions, although I was too busy moving around to pay much 
attention. Once we went home, she began reading the three books to me 
while I ate. It took about two months to finish all of the books; by 
the end of Azkaban, I was pushing onto my hands while lying on my 
belly, to watch her read.
I am probably the first baby in the world to have a Harry Potter 
inspired bedroom. My parents have hung framed posters showing the 
book covers on some of the walls; the other walls have designs of 
dragons and bright stars on them. I wish they sparkled and moved like 
the ones in the books, but my nightlight makes them shine.
And I am probably the one of the first babies in the world whose name 
was inspired by the book. Harry Potter didn't change my life, but
it 
has shaped parts of it, and I can't wait until I am old enough to 
read the books to myself.





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 20:00:35 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:00:35 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape 
In-Reply-To: <8p87l6+ute7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8s53+1n0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1140

I really have to agree w/ Peg on the fact that just because he is on 
"Our team" doesn't make him a great person.  He takes his authority 
and uses it to hurt those who aren't in his favour.  IMO that is just 
wrong no matter where your loyalties lie.

As far as the whole "Well he did save Harry in PS" arguement- I never 
really bought it that much.  I mean I know that he muttered a 
countercurse but anyone could have done that.  And another thing- It 
was Quirrell who said that Snape was muttering a countercurse, right?

Everyone will probably hate me for this but it really is possible 
that Snape is NOT on our team.  I mean Quirell could easily lie, and 
Dumbledore has trusted those, like Quirell, who he probably shouldn't 
have.  He might be our "moral compass", but he's not perfect.  
Another thing is if Snape is working as a spy for Dumble and Voldy 
suspects  nothing isn't it possible that the opposite could be true...

I know that none of the above is likely but hey we are talking about 
JKR here and ANYTHING is possible...

Scott
 

> Oh, yes, I agree absolutely that Snape is just an utter bastard.  
But 
> his being Our Man Snape comes down to a little more than one 
decision 
> in the far-off past.  As impure as his motives might have been, he 
> did work to save Harry's life in PS.
> He apparently did some very dangerous spy work the first time Voldy 
> was around.
> And in GoF he proved to be unswervingly loyal to Dumbledore in what 
> was and is a very dificult situation.  He could have returned to 
> Voldy like the other Death Eaters or just run away like Karkaroff.
> I am of the opinion that he should be cut at least a little slack, 
> after what he has probably been through.  Still doesn't make the 
way 
> he treats the kids right, but makes things a little more 
> understandable.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 20:12:05 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:12:05 -0000
Subject: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
In-Reply-To: <8p88c5+jv4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8sql+rlmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1141

I also have wondered about whether or not Harry will not be the only 
one to help defeat Voldy (If as others have raised he is defeated at 
all).  I seriously think that unity will emerge from the throng as 
one of the leading themes in later books.  It all sort of goes back 
to what Peg was saying about loyalty.  Voldy has followers but not 
companionship, and the latter is a far stronger bond, maybe strong 
enough to destroy V...

Scott



> 
> I was wondering today if maybe Book 7 might end with a trick out of 
> Diane Duane's wizard books - get a VERY LARGE NUMBER OF WIZARDS 
> TOGETHER who go up against Voldy united.  He can't Kedavra them all.
> 
> 




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Thu Sep  7 20:42:18 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:42:18 -0000
Subject: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire
In-Reply-To: <8p6unf+gope@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p8uja+8kie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1142

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
  
>  And what does he fear the most? Dementors, say the readers of 
> Prisoner of Azkaban--or perhaps more generally, all the forces of 
> evil that ally with Voldemort (not to mention> Voldemort himself, 
> particularly after the last chapters of GoF).

I agree.  The Boggart is supposed to show you your greatest fear.  
Before the end of GoF it appeared as Dementors.  However, Harry can 
control a dementor.  He created a full blown patronus which drove off 
the dementors at the end of PoA.  Now, most people lose their fear of 
something once they can control it, so the boggart in the maze should 
have appeared as something else, IMO.

Certainly after GoF, Harry should fear Voldy more than he fears the 
dementors.  After all, he knows what the dementors can do, but he can 
protect himself and his friends from them.  Voldemort, on the other 
hand, has friends known and unknown, and Harry doesn't know 
everything that he is capable of doing.

As a person faces his fears, the boggart should change also.

Vicki

P.s.  I got a kick out of the person who said they were their own 
class full of fears, and pictured the boggart shifting constantly in 
front of the same person.  Actually, I suspect that the Boggart can 
read a person sufficiently that it discovers our greatest fear 
whether or not we are aware of it ourselves.  So the boggart sifts 
through the group of possiblities and instinctively selects the worst 
one.

I'm not sure what my worst fear would be.  Possibly cockroaches.  
Either that or some psychological fear, maybe that I'll die alone and 
friendless.  I would expect a boggart to display more psychological 
fears from people than physical fears, such as spiders, roaches, etc.
  
> So, looking at the series as a whole, what do you think Harry wants 
> the most, and what does he fear the most?  And how do you think (or 
> hope!) Rowling will make those two things collide, and what will 
> happen when they do?

You already stated what Harry wants the most.  He wants to be 
normal.  He wants to be "Harry" and not "Famous Harry Potter with the 
scar."  He wants to have parents and a family, and certainly seems to 
value parental units more than the average teenager I know :-)  

What does he fear the most?  Two possibles.  On one level he fears 
that Voldemort will get back in control and that his parents will 
have died in vain.  However, on an entirely different level, I think 
that Harry fears the opposite of what he wants, i.e., that he will 
always be Famous Harry Potter and never just Harry, employed wizard, 
normal husband and, eventually, father.

Vicki





From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 20:49:36 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin M. Walsh)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: KAITLIN HAS RETURNED FROM SABBATICAL
Message-ID: <20000907204936.7576.qmail@web804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1143

Hello folks, my brief sabbatical has officially ended,
therefore I will now begin to catch up on reading the
messages.  I know that I posted an awful lot for
someone on sabbatical, but I couldn't resist.
A question:  Are the chats still in the Yahoo chat
room, or are they in Egroups?

~Kaitlin

=====
Thought for the day:
"Somewhere out in this audience may even be someone who will one day follow in my footsteps and preside over the White House as the Presidents spouse. I wish him well." ~Barbara Bush

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From pt4ever at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 20:50:38 2000
From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:50:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Personal Boggarts
Message-ID: <20000907205039.13713.qmail@web119.yahoomail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1144

      My Boggart would probably be one of two things:

1.  A really large, disgusting snake (probably a basilisk) because I
have this absolute, terrifying, deathly fear of snakes, or --

2.  My parents telling me they don't love me anymore.  That was a huge
fear (totally unfounded) of mine back in seventh grade when they were
divorcing, and even though I'm a happy, well-adjusted college
sophomore, it still lingers in the back of my mind despite attempts to
squelch it.  

      I'll just leave now that you've found more than you ever wanted
to about me... :)  

=====
~JoAnna~

"Miracles occur naturally as expressions of love. The real miracle is the love that inspires them. In this sense everything that comes from love is a miracle."
 
-- Marianne Williamson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From dorband at uwp.edu  Thu Sep  7 21:27:10 2000
From: dorband at uwp.edu (Brian  Dorband)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:27:10 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p8m2m+tfa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p917e+d1l0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1145

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Flying Ford Anglia"
<neilward at d...> 
wrote:
.  
> 
> The fact that Dumbledore likes and trusts Snape may appear to be a 
> contradiction, but only if we assume that Dumbledore is a complete 
> force for good - I'm not convinced that he is so benign.  
> 

Anybody else not entirely satisfied with the cursory explanation
given by Dumbledore regarding the Philosopher's Stone?  This great
and 
powerful thing - the pursuit of all alchemists - was just 
destroyed?!?!  I think not.  Dumbledore is holding out big-time with 
this one.  Dumbledore confronted a weakened Voldemort (with Quirrel), 
and the only explanation is that V. got away and the Stone was 
destroyed.  It seems that with V., in as weak a condition as he's
ever 
been, Dumbledore woulda, coulda, shoulda done something more.  We 
don't even know what little happened between them as JKR doesn't 
reveal much (intentionally).  But what a scene it could have been...


Brian




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep  7 21:59:42 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:59:42 -0000
Subject: Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p917e+d1l0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p934e+d7jg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1146

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian  Dorband" <dorband at u...> 
wrote:
> 
>  Dumbledore confronted a weakened Voldemort (with 
Quirrel), 
> and the only explanation is that V. got away and the Stone was 
> destroyed.  It seems that with V., in as weak a condition as he's
> ever 
> been, Dumbledore woulda, coulda, shoulda done something more.  We 
> don't even know what little happened between them as JKR doesn't 
> reveal much (intentionally).  But what a scene it could have been...


Yeah, but this is fairly easily explained - Voldy dropped his 
possession of Quirrel and essentially reverted to pure (evil) spirit
- and given everyone's astonishment at Nearly Headless Nick's 
paralysis by the basilisk, it is highly probable that wizards don't 
have a whole lot they can do against ghosts or other disembodied 
spirits, granting the exception of what Lupin did to Peeves with the 
gum (but of course Peeves isn't strictly a ghost, they also take
pains to say).  In fact i suspect that when Voldy perceived that his 
'host' was under physical attack by AD, he dispossessed Quirrel right 
there (& Q. probably expired within moments of that) precisely
because he knew that while connected to Quirrel he could be hurt by
AD but as a disembodied form, he was immune.

-Brooks




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  7 22:46:35 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 22:46:35 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's mean streak.
Message-ID: <8p95sb+upgt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1147

Someone (I think it was Neil) suggested that Dumbly most likely has 
some type of "badness" in him.  Ok, how on Earth can we say that 
Snape is essentially good despite his nastiness and yet think that 
Dumbly could be bad!?!?

I do think that he most likely has some weakness (Was it Dee who said 
stealing socks?).  Well that's probably not it, though maybe an 
affinity for House Elves...hmmmm

Despite what weakness "mean streaks" Dumbly may have I don't think 
that they would necessarily make him allied w/ Voldemort.  After all 
we all have flaws and theat doesn't makes us automatically Evil...

Scott




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 22:45:02 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 23:45:02 +0100
Subject: WWII & HP
Message-ID: <39B81A6E.8D88AAB0@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1148

On Wed. 6th September Penny <linsenma at hic.net> wrote:

>Hi everyone --

>A friend of mine (who lurks on this list & is on vacation right now in
>any case) was asking me about something she remembered reading in the
>Archives about the witches & wizards of Britain "casting spells"
against
>Hitler during WWII.  She mentioned this to her daughter, and now her
>daughter's social studies teacher is interested in her doing more
>research on this topic.  Given our recent discussions, my curiosity was

>piqued.  I started searching our new Archives and didn't find anything.

>Since my friend & I also belong to hpanonymous, I searched those
>Archives.  Bingo.

>31 July 1940 is allegedly the date that the witches & wizards of
Britain
>raised a "cone of power" that "stopped" Hitler's planned invasion of
>England.

Possibly the original recount of this appeared in Illustrated Magazine
in an article entitled 'Witchcraft in Britain' (27 September 1952) by 
Cecil Williamson, who set up and ran the Museum of Magic and
Witchcraft Museum on the Isle of Man.

His report was that 17 witches (male & female) had gathered on Lammas
Eve to raise a 'cone of power' to prevent Hitler crossing the Channel. 
Basically to raise bad weather. It is also said that one or more of the
elderly participants died from exposure following this ritual.

Katherine's 'Lammas Night' was fiction but drew on this as well as on
other sources (including oral) about the way in which the magical
community 'did its bit' for the war effort. Another recently 
published source is 'The Magical Battle for Britain', 1993, based on 
the letters of Dion Fortune to the scattered membership of her Order: 
the Fraternity of the Inner Light which co-ordinated magical work from 
1939 onward  They accessed the deeply powerful Arthurian and Grail 
traditions, the positive side of the forces that Hitler and his people 
were also seeking to access.

Writing in October 1941:

"There are two schools of thought in the entourage of the Fuehrer -
those who believe in the invincibility of physical force and rely on
mundane  =plan organization to achieve their ends; and the relatively
small and apparently obscure group of those who realize that there are 
subtle forces that can be enlisted to serve their ends. Hitler himself 
uses both as his instruments. It is difficult to see how far he has an 
accurate knowledge of technical occultism and how far, as in military 
matters, he avails himself of experts. In any case, he himself is a 
natural occultist'.
p.60

Perhaps in citing Dumbledore as having defeated the dark wizard
Grindelwald in 1945, Rowling is accessing some of this lore, which
does find its way into popular writings on the occult, about the idea
battles between subtle forces as well as those upon the mundane plane.



Vivienne





From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep  7 22:45:57 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 23:45:57 +0100
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
Message-ID: <39B81AA5.ED19F4F4@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1149

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:55:38 -0400 :  "Denise" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
asked:

>**but maybe the Wiccans reading this could tell me if
>a person's name has a special significance in the Wiccan religion.**

Names have significance in many spiritual traditions. In Wicca, for
example a new witch takes or is given a magical name, which is only
known to other coven members and will be a great source of their power.
Magicians also will take magical names to distinguish between their
mundane and magical lives and to serve as signifcators of their 
aspiration.  The taking of a new name is often part of initiation 
ceremonies, including those within Christianity.

Birth names tend to be considered less so unless given with awareness by
the parents but as Ted A outlines they can also be very powerful 
indicators in themselves.

>Ted Andrews, in a book  entitled The Sacred Power in Your Name, says:

<snipped>

>I will now look up and type about Harry!

>and it's not listed, just Harold and Henry... sighs.

Harry will be the same as Harold. Harry is the shortened form for
Harold.



Vivienne




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep  7 22:52:11 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:52:11 -0700
Subject: Biblical Values (was ...USA Today)
In-Reply-To: <8p8q3r+koq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEHBCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1150


>>>>Maybe it's time for an honest debate about
where we are heading without biblical values.<<<<

Whenever I see someone touting "biblical values,"  I think of this humor
piece that was a rebuttal to that Dr. Laura who is on the radio, I think.  I
posted it quite a while ago, but it might amuse some of you who haven't seen
it before...

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as
many people as I can.
When someone tries to defend homosexuality, for example, I will simply
remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws in
Leviticus and Exodus and how to best follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7.
In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how
can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are
around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him
myself?

6. A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination
(Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't
agree. Can you settle this?

7. Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have
a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? I know you have
studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.anewlife.org/
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "It takes a truly moral man or woman to simply leave other people
alone."                          Cosmic Command, #981 (Vernon Howard)
=============================================


-----Original Message-----
From: heidi tandy [mailto:heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:26 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] From September 6, 2000 USA Today

Regarding banning books - this was the "Pro banning books" editorial.
What do you all think of this woman's perspective? Especially
Paragraph 5, last sentence...

Protect our kids
By Linda Harvey

Maybe it's time for an honest debate about where we are heading
without biblical values. Do we really want our kids involved in some
of these alternatives? Sure, we want children to read, but the Harry
Potter phenomenon presents us with a crucial choice. We can choose to
honor commandment No. 1 -- the one about having no other gods -- or
we can take the road more often traveled these days and thumb our
nose at our gracious creator. Let's hope U.S. schools adopt standards
that don't dishonor the one who invented words in the first place.


Linda Harvey is president of Mission: America.




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep  7 23:23:27 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:23:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sacred Power in your name
References: <39B81AA5.ED19F4F4@caersidi.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B8236F.2DC8D075@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1151

Hi --

Vivienne O'Regan wrote:

> Harry will be the same as Harold. Harry is the shortened form for
> Harold.

Nope!  It's not.  It can be a short form of Henry, but is virtually
never a short form for Harold.  The more common short form of Harold is
Hal.  Harry is actually most typically a name unto itself, both in the
US and in the UK.  It enjoys considerable popularity in the UK, even
before Prince Harry & HP.  And, it is always listed in name polls as
"Harry."  The same polls may also list Henry further down the list --
refuting the notion that a "nickname" has been put into the polls.  Here
are the meanings --

Harry -- "Warrior" (English)  -- originated as the Anglicised version of
the French "Henri."  Can be a short form of Henry or Harrison.  More
often a name by itself.

Harold -- "One who Proclaims" (German) -- nicknames Harrell & Hal

Henry -- "Ruler of the House" (German) -- nicknames Hank & Harry.


Penny (whose 2 hot buttons seem to the NY Times & the name Harry)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sybylla at netscape.net  Fri Sep  8 01:24:43 2000
From: sybylla at netscape.net (Elizabeth Doherty)
Date: 7 Sep 00 18:24:43 PDT
Subject: ? of the Antihero
Message-ID: <20000908012443.27713.qmail@www0k.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1152

Evening all,

I've been lurking for a while, but thought I would offer a response to the
question of what other Snape-like characters are out there (ie, really nasty
piece of work but still on the right side).  I actually had two or three of
these, but they flew out of my head when I began to type.  So, my lone
offering is:

Thomas Covenant.

I admit, I have not read the entire series, so I don't know if he might not
have improved as a character by the end of it, but I did read the first book. 
I cannot think of any other character off the top of my head (even Mrs. Norris
or Mrs. Elton) that I have actively LOATHED to that degree. Donaldson set out
to create an antihero for his series...IMO, he did too good a job of it.

Take care, all
Elizabeth

"If your god hates the same people you do, then it is a sure sign you have
created god in your own image."
		--Anonymous (if anyone knows the source, please help me out)

::Relurking::

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  8 01:47:59 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:47:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ? of the Antihero T. Covenant
References: <20000908012443.27713.qmail@www0k.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <009b01c01936$d49c10e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1153

I have read (and own) the whole series.  At first, my friend was reading these, and she gave me a brief plot synopsis, which upon I decided that I would avoid the series like the plague.  Then, I kept seeing her reading more and more (the hardback, library versions, which have veeeeery unique covers).  I decided to borrow the paperbacks she began buying--if she found them this interesting, then there must be something to this (she's a librarian, btw, now in SW Ohio near Columbus), and WOW!  Yes, I hated Thomas.  In fact, while I read the first three, I couldn't even call him Thomas, it was just his last name.  He only deserved it.  In the second series, he does mellow somewhat, but the underlying person is still the person from the first series, just older, and a hint wiser about the Land than the first series.  If you don't mind very heavy reading (and I rate it alongside LOTR as level of density), then this is the series to wade into.

And you're right.  Snape and Thomas could be brothers....        

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  8 02:08:18 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:08:18 -0000
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
In-Reply-To: <39B81AA5.ED19F4F4@caersidi.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8p9hmi+ormc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1154

<<> Names have significance in many spiritual traditions. . . . The 
taking of a new name is often part of initiation 
> ceremonies, including those within Christianity.>>

Of course :-).  As a Catholic, I can't believe I momentarily forgot 
the significance of names in Baptism and Confirmation ceremonies, as 
well as the Catholic tradition of invoking saints by name.  (I just 
had a surreal moment as I realized that Voodoo has a superficially 
similar tradition).  But anyway, the reason I asked about Wicca 
specifically was its relevance to witchcraft, and through that, Harry 
Potter.




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Fri Sep  8 02:11:16 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 8 Sep 2000 02:11:16 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968379076.20448@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1155


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Do you think that J.K. Rowling stole 
the Word Muggle, and other ideas for 
her Harry Potter Series from Ms. 
Stouffer?  

  o Yes  
  o No 
  o Undecided 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From waghorne at ma.ultranet.com  Fri Sep  8 03:09:35 2000
From: waghorne at ma.ultranet.com (Ken Waghorne)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:09:35 -500
Subject: Your Boggart and Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000907071230.009ca56c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200009080218.WAA31268@antiochus-fe0.ultra.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1156

Flying-Ford-Anglia wrote:
> 
> I realise that with Boggarts the whole point is to distil a fear of the
> unknown, death or failure into a physical object or situation, but my waking
> brain cannot come up with something that represents and elicits such
> feelings. If I chose, say, fear of public speaking (which might be a fear of
> failure), how on earth would that manifest itself as a Boggart?  It's really
> difficult to encapsulate a phobia like that. 

That one's easy -- a podium with a microphone on it!  That used to 
be one of my most dreaded things. Currently, my boggart would 
probably be a policeman showing up at my door to deliver some 
devastating news about the kids. I'll have to think up a good 
ridikulus (sp?) charm to use on that one. 

As far as the Mirror, I'd probably see a clutter free house -- ahh, 
that would be wonderful to have, just can't see getting there 
anytime soon! 

A quick change of subject, in order to reduce some of the volume 
of posts (it took over a week for me to catch up on the group after 
taking a three day holiday last week!):

Scott wrote:

> Everyone will probably hate me for this but it really is possible 
> that Snape is NOT on our team.  I mean Quirell could easily lie, 
and 
> Dumbledore has trusted those, like Quirell, who he probably 
shouldn't 
> have.  He might be our "moral compass", but he's not perfect.  
> Another thing is if Snape is working as a spy for Dumble and 
Voldy 
> suspects  nothing isn't it possible that the opposite could be 
true...
> 
> I know that none of the above is likely but hey we are talking 
about 
> JKR here and ANYTHING is possible...

I could see that as well.  I've read quite a few spy novels, and 
there's nothing quite as frustrating as a double agent, since you 
can never figure out exactly where their loyalties lie. Snape could 
be "ours" or he could be "V's", but my guess is he's probably 
somewhere in between.  It will definitely be exciting to watch the 
development of this character in the remaining books. 

Hound (as in grey) Fan
aka
Boston...
aka
Ken






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Fri Sep  8 02:31:06 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 8 Sep 2000 02:31:06 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968380266.17750@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1157


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


What about Cornelius Fudge? 

  o He is shallow and ambitious, but not really evil 
  o Lucius Malfoy is controlling him with the Imperius Curse 
  o He is in league with Lord Voldemort 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Fri Sep  8 02:33:15 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 8 Sep 2000 02:33:15 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968380395.13457@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1158


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Albus Dumbledore 

  o will die heroically in the last book 
  o will live forever 
  o will be killed by Lord Voldemort 
  o will be betrayed by Snape 
  o is an unregistered animagus 
  o will select Ron Weasley as the next headmaster 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  8 02:35:29 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:35:29 -0000
Subject: From September 6, 2000 USA Today
In-Reply-To: <8p8q3r+koq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p9j9h+jv3v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1159

Interesting USA Today article.

You never know *what* will offend parents.  This week I've been 
dealing with parents who want to opt out of this theme's Challenge 
Reading Selection, *Shabanu: Daughter of the Wind*.  It's about a 
Pakistani 11 year old whose marriage is being arranged.  Shabanu 
resents being forced to leave childhood before she is ready.  
Although this book is a Newberry Award Winner, suitable for ages 11 
and up, and there is nothing graphic or profane about it, I've 
received two parent "opt-out notes".  The rationale?  "I don't want 
my child being exposed to this."  Interesting note:  the few parents 
who are opting out are all educators.

As if that wasn't enough, the first parent who objected thought it 
her duty to warn me that a local suburban school district has banned 
all Harry Potter books.  I told her with a smile that the suburb in 
question wasn't the gritty inner city.  Our school district is much 
more concerned with getting kids to read than restricting their 
access to good books.  To show you how uncensored we were, I didn't 
even know there *was* a Banned Books List/Week until college.  

You don't ban books in places where children's reality is a lot 
bleaker than anything they could ever read on the printed page.

I know one thing.  I don't mind opt-outs, but until DPS bans HP, I am 
doing HP in the classroom.  Period.  I've seen too many children's 
reading habits changed because of the series to drop it from my unit 
plans.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 02:50:44 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:50:44 -0000
Subject: Musings on loyalty (long)
In-Reply-To: <39B13637.F5681AF1@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8p9k64+p239@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1160

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Have been thinking about what the books have to say about loyalty. 
Quite
> a lot, actually.
> 
> It occurred to me recently that one reason (among many) that Rowling
> included the whole house elf subplot was that it was both a
> foreshadowing and an ironic commentary on the scene between 
Voldemort
> and the Deatheaters in the graveyard. Think about it: isn't there
> something rather similar between Winky, groveling at the Quidditch 
match
> while Crouch, Sr., says "I have no use for a house elf who disobeys 
me"
> and Wormtail groveling before Voldemort, as Voldemort taunts him 
that
> perhaps he isn't loyal enough.  Loyalty, as demonstrated between 
Harry,
> Ron, Hermione, Sirius, the Weasley family, and Dumbldore is highly
> valued--but the house elf plot, like the story of Voldemort and his
> followers is included to warn us: "Be careful: if you wish to give 
your
> loyalty to someone, be sure that they deserve it."
> 
> What is the difference between loyalty as demonstrated Our Team 
(Harry
> and his friends)
> versus as demonstrated by the Other team 1) the house elfs and their
> masters (all the masters we've seen are dark wizards and 2) the 
Other
> Team (Voldemort and his followers?)
> 
> Well, on Our Team, loyalty is reciprocal (meaning it goes both 
ways),
> and it is flows between people who consider themselves to be equals.
> Harry helps Ron and Hermione, knowing that they, in turn will help 
him.
> This is demonstrated perhaps most effectively when Harry recognizes 
that
> since he and Cedric have helped each other, they are equals, and he
> acknowledges this by suggesting that they take the Triwizard cup
> together. Loyalty is demanded, but not in the nature of a one-up,
> one-down relationship, but because people on Our Team are 
responsible
> for each other and look out for one another. Remember Hagrid 
scolding
> Ron and Harry in PoA for snubbing Hermione: "I thought you two would
> value your friend more'n broomsticks or rats." And remember what 
Sirius
> said to Wormtail, when Wormtail protested that he had to betray 
James
> and Lily (turn his back on his loyalties) to save himself:
> 
> Wormtail: "He would have killed me, Sirius!"
> 
> Sirius: "Then you should have died--died rather than betrayed your
> friends AS WE WOULD
> HAVE DONE FOR YOU."
> 
> On the Other Team, however, loyalty is definitely not reciprocal.
> Remember in the first book
> when Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort left Quirrel to die: "He
> shows just as little mercy
> to his followers as his enemies." The house elf masters that we have
> seen (Malfoy, Crouch)
> consider loyalty as something they demand from their servants, but 
do
> not seem to think they
> owe anything to their house elves in return. Voldemort, too, when 
the
> death eaters come,
> scolds them for how they has let him down, and punish some, 
cruelly. But
> although he gives
> Wormtail back a hand, my impression is that everyone understands 
that
> all the giving is going
> to flow toward Voldemort, not the other way around--unless he 
decides to
> reward his
> follows on a whim. Note, too, that the Deatheaters return 
this "loyalty"
> of Voldemort's with
> coin just about as false. They come back to him out of fear, or 
because
> he can offer them
> scope for depraved pleasures--not because they think, "By gum, my 
friend
> Voldemort is in a
> spot of trouble, and he needs me, and I know he's always stuck up 
for me
> before." Others,
> observing the characters of these Death eaters, note that their 
loyalty
> is false. Karkaroff and
> Wormtail, for example, both guage their loyalty to Voldemort by
> calculating first and foremost
> what's in it for them.
> 
> Other thoughts: it was something about loyalty, or more 
specifically,
> about choosing sides, that led to the first falling out between 
Draco
> and Harry.  Remember the scene on the train, first year: Draco 
wanted
> Harry to join "his side" and appealed to him to avoid Ron and 
others of
> that ilk.
> 
> Draco: "You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better
> than others, Potter.  You don't want to go making friends with the 
wrong
> sort.  I can help you there."
> 
> Harry: "I think I can tell who are the wrong sort for myself, 
thanks."
> 
> The whole Mudblood story line is also about loyalty: which side 
will you
> stand with?  Purebloods only, or all wizards, including Mudbloods?
> 
> Look at how much dramatic mileage Rowling gets out of many 
characters
> like Quirrel, Moody and Krum, Karkaroff, Fudge and Snape, where a 
big
> part of the plot (and the surprises) hinges on: where does this 
person's
> loyalty truly lie?
> 
> Think about the implications of the students being sorted into four
> houses, and the interhouse competition, and the Triwizard 
tournament.
> Rowling is doing a lot in these books about loyalty, competition, 
about
> assessing who is on your side, trusting, betrayal, etc.
> 
> I could go on in this vein but will probably stop here for now.
> Comments?


Among "equals" (and I put this word in quotes because certainly there 
are great gaps of ability among the good witches and wizards) loyalty 
is voluntary, and offered out of love and admiration. Among the evil, 
loyalty is compelled. 

It is true that folks like Crouch or the Lestranges seem to offer
voluntary loyalty to Voldemort. This is because they are enraged, and 
bent on malicious revenage. Voldemort and Crouch's obsessions are 
with how badly they were treated by their fathers. They get revenge 
on their fathers, and then on all the rest of the world. (In contrast 
with someone like Harry who is treated badly by the Dursleys, but 
instead makes the choice to ally himself with good. As Professor 
Dumbledore says (paraphrase) it is our choices rather than our 
abilities that define us.

Dumbledore also makes the point in Book IV to Cornelius Fudge that he 
is against no one but Voldemort. His loyalty lies with anyone who 
will oppose evil.

It is a contrast between the politician who stays bought and the 
person who supports another because of their integrity.






From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 03:11:59 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 03:11:59 -0000
Subject: WWII & HP
In-Reply-To: <39B6B574.310B0486@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8p9ldv+64fo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1161

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> A friend of mine (who lurks on this list & is on vacation right now 
in
> any case) was asking me about something she remembered reading in 
the
> Archives about the witches & wizards of Britain "casting spells" 
against
> Hitler during WWII.  She mentioned this to her daughter, and now her
> daughter's social studies teacher is interested in her doing more
> research on this topic.  Given our recent discussions, my curiosity 
was
> piqued.  I started searching our new Archives and didn't find 
anything.
> Since my friend & I also belong to hpanonymous, I searched those
> Archives.  Bingo.
> 
> 31 July 1940 is allegedly the date that the witches & wizards of 
Britain
> raised a "cone of power" that "stopped" Hitler's planned invasion of
> England.  My memory is that Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion 
sometime
> in Sept 1940, when it became clear that the Luftwaffe would be 
unable to
> achieve air superiority in time for a viable crossing of the English
> Channel that year.  Sea Lion was never revived for a variety of
> reasons.  Nonetheless, I'm very very intrigued by this "cone of 
power"
> business.  The person later responded that her source for this
> information was Llewellyn's Witches' Datebook  for 2000 (presumably 
the
> 31 July entry).  She says there's also a fictional account of the
> raising of the "cone of power" entitled "Lammas Night" -- she 
couldn't
> recall the author.  I just searched amazon, and the author is 
Katherine
> Kurtz (1987) but the book is out of print.  I may see if I can find 
it
> though, as I'm quite interested.
> 
> BTW, Brooks I'd be more than happy to beta-read your fanfic if you 
want
> some comments.
> 
> Penny


Hi, I'm a witch (a real one) or wiccan and can shed some light on 
this.

Modern witchcraft was revived in the 20th century through the work of 
Gerald Gardner, and friends.....it of course is a nature based 
religion, and has nothing to do with Satan, evil or worshipping Satan.

There is a tradition in England among witches that a grand coven
did a spell that helped turn back the Spanish Armada, and one that 
came together to turn back Hitler's invasion of Britain.

In all seriousness, there is a good chance that such a 
gathering/coven did occur. My personal belief is that magic (real 
magic)is defined as energy affecting matter..that our thoughts and 
energy can affect the real world (many Christians I know would agree -
- that prayer can make real change). However, magic doesn't usually 
make things happen -- it pushes the probabilities.

In the tradition cited above, at least one person died during each 
ritual -- it is considered akin to the royal sacrifice, that the King 
or Queen will voluntarily give their life for their people (Obi Wan 
does it in Star Wars). Mary Renault talks about it in the "King Must 
Die". 

Lammas Night is indeed about this event.

Susan




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 03:23:59 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 04:23:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's mean streak.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000908032359.009a893c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1162

Scott said:
>Someone (I think it was Neil) suggested that Dumbly most likely has 
>some type of "badness" in him.  Ok, how on Earth can we say that 
>Snape is essentially good despite his nastiness and yet think that 
>Dumbly could be bad!?!?

***
'Twas me. You said yourself, recently, that ANYTHING is possible.  I was
trying to play devil's advocate to some extent and remove the implicit
assumption that Dumbledore represents 'the good wizard' against Voldemort's
'the wicked wizard' and that that should be the reference point for Snape's
behaviour.  Dumbledore's character still carries a bit of mystery, so let's
not treat it as some sort of moral anchor. I wasn't suggesting that
Dumbledore is allied to Voldemort or that he is evil in the same way, just
that perhaps he isn't as pure as the driven snow.  

Making black/white assumptions about JKR's characters is the easiest way to
fall into another of her traps and we need to think about that grey area. 

Scott added:
>I do think that he most likely has some weakness (Was it Dee who said 
>stealing socks?).  Well that's probably not it, though maybe an 
>affinity for House Elves...hmmmm

***
Well, you're right - a weakness or failing in Dumbledore's character is more
likely than his being a demonically-cackling maniac, but sometimes a small
failing can have big repercussions. Someone implied that he might have
sneaked off with the Philosopher's Stone (probably hid it in a sock under
his pillow) for example, and I've suggested that his use of the Pensieve
might at least have addled his brain.  And don't forget my even more
ridiculous theory that Peeves is Dumbledore's 'Id', based on that fact that
'Pensieve' is an anagram of 'In Peeves' (... and you thought I was joking
about that?  Would I jest?).  What better way to keep an eye on things?   

Neil, who is not always as lucid as he could be.
            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 03:26:14 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 03:26:14 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <8p8s53+1n0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p9m8m+4rg9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1163

NEVER INSULT ALBUS DUMBLEDORE IN FRONT OF ME

Whew..having said that....

Someone posted a very eloquent and scholarly post on one
of the Harry Potter lists about how fiction works..the author
must inviegle us into the fantasy world and help us suspend
our disbelief...but to do that has to be internally consistent.

Look at the characters who love and revere Dumbledore: James and Lily 
Potter, Remus Lupin, Rubeus Hagrid, Sirius Black, Arabella Figg (she 
couldn't be the same one as the Dursleys used to leave Harry with 
could she?), Minevera McGonagall, Arthur and Molly Weasley....etc.
This is significant. These are people who have known him throughout 
the last battles against Voldemort when no one was safe in their 
homes. (I just love the scene when the older Weasley brother 
immediately says "I'll go to Dad".....)

Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. He is the great opponent of Lord 
Voldemort, just as Gandalf is the Enemy of Sauron.

Suggesting he is not is akin to the folks who are saying "wouldn't it 
be COOL if Harry went over to the dark side". I echo those who 
suggest that this is a symptom of naivety at best....I take HP 
seriously as I took LOTR's seriously, which are both of the series 
great strengths. the Dark Side? Kill someone's parents? Torture the 
Longbottom's? Behave like Draco Malfoy? Never!

However.....I have been very upset with Professor Dumbledore when I 
think about how Snape treats his students. His vitriol and abuse 
towards Neville and Harry..his favoritism...are really not okay. 
Dumbledore should intervene.

However, perhaps he is too busy. He is not superhuman. He makes 
MISTAKES. this is the genius of Rowlings (and Tolkien). People are 
complex. Even the greatest and most wonderful of people have made bad 
choices, make mistakes and are not perfect. 

It is unclear if Severus Snape is a mistake or not...We'll find out

susan




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 04:06:45 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 04:06:45 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <968379076.20448@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p9okl+1536@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1164

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, HPforGrownups at egroups.com wrote:
> 
> Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the 
HPforGrownups 
> group:
> 
> 
> Do you think that J.K. Rowling stole 
> the Word Muggle, and other ideas for 
> her Harry Potter Series from Ms. 
> Stouffer?  
> 
>   o Yes  
>   o No 
>   o Undecided 

This is stupid.  Obviously everyone on this group is going to vote 
No, if they bother voting.  What is the point of this poll?




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 04:23:57 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 04:23:57 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <8p9m8m+4rg9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8p9pkt+oda3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1165

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> NEVER INSULT ALBUS DUMBLEDORE IN FRONT OF ME
> 
> Look at the characters who love and revere Dumbledore: James and 
Lily 
> Potter, Remus Lupin, Rubeus Hagrid, Sirius Black, Arabella Figg 
(she 
> couldn't be the same one as the Dursleys used to leave Harry with 
> could she?), Minevera McGonagall, Arthur and Molly Weasley....etc.
> This is significant. These are people who have known him throughout 
> the last battles against Voldemort when no one was safe in their 
> homes. (I just love the scene when the older Weasley brother 
> immediately says "I'll go to Dad".....)
> 
> Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. 

I am with Susan on this one.  If Neil, Scott and anyone else continue 
to say that Dumbledore is evil I will turn them into pigs with a wave 
of my pink umbrella.

Seriously though, the thought of Dumbledore being a bad guy is just 
too disturbing to contemplate.  I realize that I am the one that 
suggested that perhaps evil would triumph in the end (i.e. Book 7) 
but NOT THAT WAY!!!!!!

It is odd, though, how Snape gets away with being so incredibly 
unfair.  How could it be possible that Dumbledore doesnt notice, or 
care?  I could see that maybe he thinks being treated unfairly will 
toughen them (Harry & co.) up, but what about Neville?  The way Snape 
treats Neville is just cruel.  It really is hard to understand why 
Dumbledore never intervenes.  But I REFUSE to believe that it is 
because he is a bad guy.

-- Joywitch




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 04:34:04 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 05:34:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1166

Susan said:

>>>>>NEVER INSULT ALBUS DUMBLEDORE IN FRONT OF ME

I'm sorry Susan, I'll try not to get in front of you.  I love Dumbledore
too, but as the old saying goes: 'The show ain't over 'til the fat lady sings'. 

>>>>>Someone posted a very eloquent and scholarly post on one of the Harry
Potter lists about how fiction works..

Good for them.  They should get a Nobel prize if they can define "how
fiction works". In my opinion, fiction is about imagination and there should
be no rule book. Why not break moulds and challenge conventions?  I do agree
that there has to be some integrity to the characters and plot, however, and
that we have to trust the portrayal of Harry Potter at least.  With the
other characters there are most likely secrets to be unearthed: some good,
some bad. 

>>>>>>Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. He is the great opponent of Lord 
>Voldemort, just as Gandalf is the Enemy of Sauron.

Hmmmm.  That's rather a bald statement given that we're only on Book IV in
the series. I'd say you're almost certainly right, but you're not certainly
right.  

Why does everyone keep mentioning "Lord of the Rings"?  JK Rowling has said
herself that she was not much of a reader of fantasy, so there is no reason
to assume that LOTR was a major influence [correct me if I'm wrong] any more
than there is to assume she has followed a 'how to write fantasy and these
are the rules' guide book.

Neil (a scientist - what did you expect?)   


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 04:44:54 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 05:44:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000908044454.009b0810@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1167

At 04:23 09/08/2000 -0000, Joywitch wrote:

>> Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. 
>
>I am with Susan on this one.  If Neil, Scott and anyone else continue 
>to say that Dumbledore is evil I will turn them into pigs with a wave 
>of my pink umbrella.

No!!! Help!!!!  I've reconsidered.  Here is my latest theory:

Dumbledore is totally good.  He is not bad or flawed in any way.  We should
not question his goodness.  He is divine.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  8 05:05:45 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:05:45 -0400
Subject: The Divine (as in Deity) Dumbledore
References: <1.5.4.32.20000908044454.009b0810@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01b201c01952$7457d5e0$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1168

Hasn't this too been done?  A big addle-brained mage and a sidekick kender?
(Fizban, yes I know his name, lol.  I loved that character best)

Dee


No!!! Help!!!!  I've reconsidered.  Here is my latest theory:

Dumbledore is totally good.  He is not bad or flawed in any way.  We should
not question his goodness.  He is divine.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

*****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

[Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

*****************************************




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  8 06:18:20 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:18:20 -0500
Subject: New HP book
Message-ID: <v02140be3b5de34cb4183@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1169


As I've said I work in a Borders here in Columbus, and today I saw a new
book about HP.  It's called "Teaching Harry Potter" and I don't recall the
author...perhaps someone could jump on over to Amazon and find it...ahem, I
mean Borders.com.

It was basically a big scholarly treatise on various themes, resources and
interpretations of HP.  It only went up through PoA so I'm assuming it was
written before July.

It was a rather large, nice hardcover.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep  8 05:21:36 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:21:36 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908044454.009b0810@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEHMCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1170

Perhaps Dumbledore allows the behavior of teachers like Snape or Trelawney,
or incompetents like Quirrell and Lockhart, because he simply has so little
in the way of professors to choose from.  It has been suggested that the
ranks of competent adult wizards have been thinned considerably in the years
preceding Voldemort's downfall, and we've seen even more decimation of the
troops as Voldemort struggles to return to power.  With all the world-wide
wizarding schools competing for personnel, Dumbledore may have to take
whatever he can get and hope for the best.



=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.anewlife.org/
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "It takes a truly moral man or woman to simply leave other people
alone."                          Cosmic Command, #981 (Vernon Howard)
=============================================





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  8 06:04:51 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:04:51 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEFACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8p9vi3+2iun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1171

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:
> 
> This is something that makes me wonder.  Harry always thinks that
> Mrs. Norris is looking right at him when he's invisible, and yet
> the cat never goes up to him and performs any action that would 
> reveal his presence.  She just stares at the space where he is.
> Since she seems to aid Filch in catching delinquent students, why 
> is she not attempting to bring Filch's attention to the invisible
> Harry?

Before I read the post in which someone very wisely suggested that 
Mrs. Norris thinks the invisible person is just another ghost or 
other invisible being that it is not her job to report to Filch, 
I thought:

Cats are designed to specialize in hearing: a huge amount of their 
brain is auditory cortex, and they have those dish-antenna ears 
that swivel to focus the sound. They have a better sense of smell 
than humans. And they have lousy eyesight. Mrs. Norris probably 
'notices' Harry by the sound of his breathing and heartbeat and the 
smell of his nervousness, and stares 'at' him in some confusion 
trying to see the Big Blob that is supposed to accompany that sound 
and that smell.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  8 07:19:15 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:19:15 -0000
Subject: Snape//also COBOL
In-Reply-To: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pa3tj+3cj7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1172

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " wrote about Snape.

A few days ago, I posted quite a long essay on Snape on Harry Potter 
Anonymous (where no one replied) and Hogwarts Adult School (where a 
couple of people replied). (Both those are more e-groups.) Here I
will repeat SOME of what I said there, with SOME new points.  

> One thing I'd like to pick up is Snape's sense of duty and 
> responsibility.  Why would anyone lacking in a very powerful sense 
> of duty try to protect Harry for the reasons Dumbledore explained?  

I believe that Snape protects Harry's life because Snape is (or is 
pretending to be: someone made the good point about double agents) on 
the side that wants to destroy Voldemort, and Snape (and all 'the old 
gang') know (altho' Harry does not) that only the future, grown-up 
Harry can destroy Voldemort (Voldemort can be destroyed, at least now 
that he has made himself mortal again, even tho' evil cannot be 
destroyed and new evil beings will arise in the future). Thus, Snape 
finds it necessary to keep Harry alive in order to meet Snape's 
(shared) goal. Feeling a sense of obligation about James having 
saved his life is only the smallest part of it! 

It must be at least that small part, or else Dumbledore would have 
been lying to Harry after affirming that he would not lie, a scenario 
which I reject until proven otherwise, which causes me to believe 
that Socks really were what he saw in the Mirror of Erised. Maybe his 
old mother used to knit him socks as his present every Christmas and 
seeing his aged self holding a new pair of Mama's Xmas socks really 
means wishing that his mother were still alive. 

Snape hates Harry despite having to keep him alive -- I believe that 
the Marauders' 'practical joke' is nothing but frosting on that cake. 
He hated James and Sirius long before that, for reasons consisting 
largely of envy (you got him *exactly right* in the scene where they 
get their NEWT results!) and Remus from the moment of learning that 
he was a werewolf out of sheer bigotry. He hates Harry as the heir of 
all three (and the spitting image of the most hated one), and also 
hates Harry for being famous and getting special treatment -- special 
treatment like having Hagrid fetch him to Diagon Alley, which was not 
a piece of favoritism, but the result of being a wizard-born child 
raised by cruel Muggles. I mentioned that for an adult to hate a 
child out of envy is NOT a sign of good mental health, but does 
happen. 

> I think Snape's greatest fear is one a lot of people have - the 
> fear of failing.  (snip) So he always has to get in first with the 
> insult, before anyone can insult him.

Peg's question and your answer widens the topic, to why does Snape 
hate almost everyone? That can also be chalked up to envy. I had a 
high school math teacher who was exceedingly nasty to students. We 
figured he was crabby because of being hung-over most of the time 
because of being a drunk, but I also got the feeling that he was 
angry about being a failure in life and resented us teen-agers 
because we still had potential in front of us, the chance to be not a 
failure in life. I keep wanting to apply that to Snape, altho' it 
doesn't totally match: being a professor at Hogwarts is not a career 
failure, but a prestigeous job that I believe is well paid. 

So my second string theory is that he was never loved as a child, and 
therefore resents all the people who have family or even friends. 
(This would even explain his blatant favoritism to Slytherin, 
such as when refereeing Quidditch -- his Slytherins are his babies, 
the only family he ever had.) 

Which does not contradict my totally off-the-wall suggestion that 
Snape was Voldemort's child by some obedient female Death Eater, not 
merely raised but even begotten on purpose to serve Voldemort's 
schemes. That would explain why he, as a child, arrived at school 
with no social skills, an interest in the Dark Arts, and much 
knowledge of curses, why he became a Death Eater -- and even why he 
turned against the Dark Side: adolescent rebellion. 

(Somehow, while I wasn't looking, I have gotten so old that I don't 
remember if young people resent things being attributed to 
'adolescent rebellion' or find it funny. I do remember that we 
resented being called young people.)

> A side question, and one thing that makes me feel some doubt 
> towards Snape, is why he is so fond of Draco Malfoy, and why he 
> reacted when Harry mentioned that Lucius Malfoy was a Death Eater.

I keep asking that question. People keep telling me that it is 
because Snape and Lucius were friends at school, but when Sirius says 
that Snape hung out with a gang of Slytherins who all turned out to
be Death Eaters, he mentions Wilkes and Rosier (dead), the Lestranges
(in Azkaban), and Avery (got off -- and is in the DE circle in the 
graveyard) -- he doesn't mention Malfoy. 

Someone on HAS suggested, in that case, maybe Lucius started at 
Hogwarts when Snape was like a seventh-year and Snape made him into a 
protege, but I replied that then there would have had to be a LOT of 
years between James, Sirius, Remus, Severus graduating (yeah, 
American phrase) and Harry and Draco being born at roughly the same 
time.

(Incidentally, I have a theory on Harry, Draco, Vincent Crabbe, 
Gregory Goyle, and the Nott who was sorted in Book 1 all being the 
same age -- there was a prophecy about a child born on a certain day, 
and Voldemort ordered all his Death Eaters to try to have children 
for that day -- Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott fathers are all in 
that DE circle.) 

Lee thinks that Draco being Snape's teacher's pet should be explained 
by a Snape/Draco slashfic, but it seems that Snape favored Draco from 
the beginning and he doesn't seem the love at first sight type. 
Unless it was Draco's strong family resemblance to Lucius awakening 
old feelings about Lucius...

I'm trying to limit the number of e-mails, so here also my 
reflections on Dee's post about the two teachers. First of all, 
having worked for pay as a pgmmer (mainly COBOL) since 1978, it has 
always been my experience that when you start the job, you only need 
to know as much of the specified computer language as it takes to 
pass the job interview. The actual language, using it to do what you 
want, with fluency, develops quickly as you do your first real 
assignment, with constant checking of the manual, much trial and 
error, and usually a lot of cussing. 

More important, there's a big difference between the merely strict 
and stern teacher whom Dee described, and the cruel and unfair Snape. 
Lee's uncle was at Harvard Law when the real life (tm) prototype of 
Kingsbery was teaching there, and he told her that he was quite 
unable to watch the PAPER CHASE tv show because the real Kingsbery 
had been so much worse, so totally evil that he still got nauseated 
thinking about him, and the uncle did not believe he had been any 
kind of good teacher, even tho' some people argue that law students 
should be treated harshly with cruelty and unkindness in order to 
toughen them up for courtroom battle. Programmers and potion makers, 
unlike lawyers and Marines, do not have combat as part of the job. 





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  8 07:33:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:33:05 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and PS(was:Snape's greatest fear; Our Man Snape
In-Reply-To: <8p917e+d1l0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pa4nh+ntvi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1173

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian  Dorband" <dorband at u...> 
wrote:

> Anybody else not entirely satisfied with the cursory explanation
> given by Dumbledore regarding the Philosopher's Stone?  This great
> and  powerful thing - the pursuit of all alchemists - was just 
> destroyed?!?!  I think not. 

A thought occured to me on the bus this morning: in GoF, there are a 
number of references to Harry noticing for the first time Dumbledore 
looking old. It could be Harry is now looking more closely. It could 
that Dumbledore is suffering from stress. It could be that Dumbledore 
has reached the point in one's life where one starts going downhill 
rapidly. 

OR it could be that he had previously been using a little of Flamel's 
Elixir of Life to slow down his aging, and now its absence is 
catching up with him -- which would be an indication that the Stone 
really was destroyed.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep  8 07:43:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:43:44 -0000
Subject: Wicca
Message-ID: <8pa5bg+piui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1174

While the religion named Wicca is also called Witchcraft, it has 
NOTHING to do with the 'witchcraft' in HP. If only JKR had called the 
females wizardesses instead of witches, she could have skipped the 
word 'witchcraft' altogether. I cannot emphasis enough how wildly 
different it is for a person to do magic by praying to the gods and 
building a strong mental concentration on a set of symbols, than for 
a person to do magic because they have a rare inborn magic power 
and a wand with a realio-trulio dragon heartstring! 

Therefore, what Wiccans believe about names is basically irrelevant 
to HP. What mattters is what JKR believes about names.

However, for the record, while individual Wiccans are welcome to 
believe in numerology and so on, the most common idea about names in 
Wicca is that your birth name doesn't particularly matter at all, 
except for legal documents, and your self-chosen name matters only as 
much as you make it matter. Some people have been given new names by 
the gods, which is a whole 'nother story.




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 08:29:42 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:29:42 -0000
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
In-Reply-To: <39B8236F.2DC8D075@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8pa81m+75mr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1175

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Vivienne O'Regan wrote:
> 
> > Harry will be the same as Harold. Harry is the shortened form for
> > Harold.
> 
> Nope!  It's not.  It can be a short form of Henry, but is virtually
> never a short form for Harold.  The more common short form of 
Harold is
> Hal.  

Oh well, I must be an incredibly lucky person then if it is virtually 
never a short form for Harold because I personally know six of them, 
one of whom is 85 years old.  I also personally know two Henrys, one 
of whom is known as Harry and the other is known as Rocky.  (Both of 
whom were born around the same time as Prince Henry who is known as 
Harry.)  I don't personally know anybody known as Hal at all 
(although I do know *of* one and I do personally know a horse of that 
name - owner is a Shakespeare fan and the Hal isn't short for 
anything).

My experience as a Brit living in various parts of the UK at some 
time or another but currently in Scotland is that Harry can be, and 
often is, short for both Harold and Henry.  Sometimes a short name 
may be used for several different names - you wouldn't know, for 
example, if a Bert were actually a Robert, or Bertram, or Cuthbert, 
or Albert (must be others I think) - perfectly valid for all 
of them - somebody might even be named Bert and it isn't short for 
anything.

Anyway - a person's name is that by which they are known and if all 
the Harolds want to be known as Harrys who are we to say they are 
wrong?

Cheers for now

Pam






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep  8 11:39:35 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:39:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
References: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39B8CFF7.AEEF9936@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1176



Neil Ward wrote:

Good for them.  They should get a Nobel prize if they can define "how

> fiction works". In my opinion, fiction is about imagination and there should
> be no rule book.

Well, it's fun to try to do new things, but readers like the tried and true, too.
Heros win.  Villains are defeated.  Characters are most interesting when they face
moral dilemmas and change.  And it's a lot easier for the writer if they have some
idea of what to do, rather than putting words down on the page at random.

BTW, has anyone here read John Gardner's _On Moral Fiction_?

> Why not break moulds and challenge conventions?  I do agree
> that there has to be some integrity to the characters and plot, however, and
> that we have to trust the portrayal of Harry Potter at least.  With the
> other characters there are most likely secrets to be unearthed: some good,
> some bad.
>

No disagreement there.

Why does everyone keep mentioning "Lord of the Rings"?  JK Rowling has said

> herself that she was not much of a reader of fantasy, so there is no reason
> to assume that LOTR was a major influence [correct me if I'm wrong] any more
> than there is to assume she has followed a 'how to write fantasy and these
> are the rules' guide book.

Because LOTR is THE seminal fantasy book that was ever written; it is, in fact, the
book the started "Fantasy" as a separate marketing genre.  And so many fantasy
books get compared to it.  (Haven't you ever seen those stupid publishing blurbs on
fantasy novels: "In the tradition of Lord of the Rings," etc.)

Tolkien was especially good at world-building, which I think is a strong talent of
Rowling's, too, which is probably another reason for the comparison.  In addition,
both books are about the struggle of good vs. evil.  Yeah, yeah, lots of books
are--but maybe fantasy is a lot more specific/explicit about it, and I won't go
into my standard riff here about the nature of fantasy.  And, as someone else
pointed out, there are echos between the two books ("The pity of Bilbo may rule the
fate of many") and certain characters (Wormtongue/Wormtail).

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep  8 11:41:46 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:41:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New HP book
References: <v02140be3b5de34cb4183@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <39B8D07A.7BD24BB3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1177

I believe I've mentioned this website before, which includes website info for
teachers:

http://tlc.ai.org/rowling.htm

Peg

summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>
> As I've said I work in a Borders here in Columbus, and today I saw a new
> book about HP.  It's called "Teaching Harry Potter" <snip>




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  8 13:15:46 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:15:46 -0500
Subject: 'Dumbledore actually a bad guy' theories
References: <968401821.12530@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B8E681.662A5F8C@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1178

I fall in the group that says that Dumbledore is a good guy. Currently.

However, I have also seen stories where characters who really were
'good' early in stories, succumb to some kind of temptation - including
temptations to do things that they think are necessary to fight the
enemy in the story, but which actually put the good character more in
line with the enemy than opposed to the enemy.

So it is at least possible that if things go really bad, Dumbledore
might lose the nobility McGonagall ascribes to him in the first chapter
of the first book (remember all the way back to that?  That's why I
think he is indeed totally good at present) and in desparation adopt
some dark magic practice to fight Voldy, which in fact tempts him to the
dark side.
(And Vader is not just Luke's father -- Luke is actually a clone of
Anakin - that' s my theory - remember the Clone Wars?  That's why the
face in the mask on Dagobah looked like himself, in Luke's vision)

At any rate, although it does make for good drama in the story, I think
we need more foreshadowing than we have had if JKR is going to swing
this way.  So for now I am on the side of AD being good, and I will be
disappointed if this is what she has up her sleeve.

-Brooks



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 13:18:21 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:18:21 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <39B8CFF7.AEEF9936@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8paout+dfdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1179

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

>>> Well, it's fun to try to do new things, but readers like the 
tried and true, too. Heros win.  Villains are defeated.  Characters 
are most interesting when they face moral dilemmas and change.  And 
it's a lot easier for the writer if they have some idea of what to 
do, rather than putting words down on the page at random.

...Hey! We're back to Finnegan's Wake again.  There is a limit, I 
guess.

Being realistic, I wouldn't advocate just throwing something together 
with no rhyme or reason. It's just refreshing, sometimes, when a 
writer doesn't write something "In the tradition of..." (as you said, 
in relation to LOTR).  

The fantasy genre seems very rigid to me (not knowing too much about 
it), to the extent that Diana Wynne Jones could find enough
clich?s 
to write the very funny "Tough Guide to Fantasyland".  I recall that 
JKR said she didn't set out to write within the fantasy genre, but 
realised, when she was mentioning centaurs, that she was writing a 
fantasy book.  This suggests to me that she may not follow accepted 
conventions in this genre.   

Neil




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  8 13:18:32 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:18:32 -0500
Subject: Mrs. Norris: A Character Study
References: <968401821.12530@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B8E728.8C1F2EB9@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1180

Catlady writes:

> Cats are designed to specialize in hearing: a huge amount of their 
> brain is auditory cortex, and they have those dish-antenna ears 
> that swivel to focus the sound. They have a better sense of smell 
> than humans. And they have lousy eyesight. Mrs. Norris probably 
> 'notices' Harry by the sound of his breathing and heartbeat and the 
> smell of his nervousness, and stares 'at' him in some confusion 
> trying to see the Big Blob that is supposed to accompany that sound 
> and that smell.


This is actually just as good as mine.  But that leads to an interesting
question as well:
Coould Hedwig find Harry in the cloak?  Owls are even more
auditory-adapted than cats, since they are specialized to hunt at night.

-Brooks



From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  8 13:35:41 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:35:41 -0500
Subject: Names
References: <8pa81m+75mr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B8EB2D.47008960@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1181

Hi --


> > Nope!  It's not.  It can be a short form of Henry, but is virtually
> > never a short form for Harold.  The more common short form of
> Harold is Hal.
>
> Oh well, I must be an incredibly lucky person then if it is virtually
> never a short form for Harold because I personally know six of them,
> one of whom is 85 years old.

Ah, well --- that's why I said *virtually* never (never say never).  The
only Harold I know is called Hal.

> My experience as a Brit living in various parts of the UK at some
> time or another but currently in Scotland is that Harry can be, and
> often is, short for both Harold and Henry.

True enough.  But, I still think it's more often a name that isn't a
short-form or a nickname.  It does have a separate entry in most name
meaning books (and the ones I happen to have don't actually list Harry
as a nickname for Harold).  It also is listed as just Harry in naming
polls.  It's in the Top 10 or Top 20 in the UK & has been for some time
(based on internet research).  IMO, people must be naming their sons
just Harry or the poll would reflect Henry or Harold (as the info is
gleaned from official birth records).  Otherwise, the poll would show
Joey instead of Joseph, Bill instead of William, etc.

In the US, the name Harry hasn't been used much since the 1920s.  But, I
was looking at those name polls by decade a while back, and Harry was
listed in the polls from the 1880s - 1920s.  The name Henry often popped
up in the same polls.  So, if Harry were most often a nickname of Henry,
it would seem that the pollsters would have just lumped all the Harrys
into the listing for Henry, rather than having 2 separate entries.  The
Harrys in my husband's genealogy are also just Harry.

Anyway . . . . the main point is that *our* Harry -- the Harry in
question -- seems from all evidence to be named just Harry.  He shows up
as Harry Potter on the Marauders Map, and even when professors have
addressed Ron as Ronald, they always call Harry, just Harry.  So . . . .
that's why I don't think it much matters for our purposes what the name
Harold means.  It does have a separate meaning from Harry after all.  I
like that Harry means "warrior" or "ruler."  Seems quite appropriate.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  8 13:28:03 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:28:03 -0500
Subject: WB Merchandise
References: <968401821.12530@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B8E962.9B4ADB6@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1182

I made it to my local WB store last night for the first time since July
and found that they in fact had in stock a very large selection of
children's size shirts, backpacks, gym bags with Quidditch logos, a
picture frame, temporary tatoos, and information on a $100 print that
showed a boat powerlessly gliding to the distant castle, with the Heroes
in it, seen from behind.  I did get myself an adult sized Hogwarts'
crest shirt.  I found somewhat disturbing the floating-eye-region
Voldemort shirts, and also the fact that this was a decoration inside
the notebooks that had "Harry Potter" and the lightning flash on the
front.  Too much pandering to kids who say "wouldn't it be cool if Harry
went dark?".

Not remembering where it was that had the golden snitch key fobs, I was
searching among those various WB characters key rings, and was suddenly
struck with a vision which might be an out-take from the movie - - Harry
on broom goes zooming towards the yellow thing bobbing along on
undersized wings, and suddenly diverts at the last second as the
hovering yellow things turns around in mid air and says "I tawt I taw a
Quidditch match!" -it turns out to be Tweetie instead of the golden snitch.....


-Brooks



From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep  8 14:12:09 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:12:09 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
References: <8paout+dfdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B8F3B9.6071ED33@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1183

Hi

Flying Ford Anglia wrote:

> The fantasy genre seems very rigid to me (not knowing too much about
> it), to the extent that Diana Wynne Jones could find enough
> clich?s to write the very funny "Tough Guide to Fantasyland".  I
> recall that JKR said she didn't set out to write within the fantasy
> genre, but
> realised, when she was mentioning centaurs, that she was writing a
> fantasy book.  This suggests to me that she may not follow accepted
> conventions in this genre.

I admittedly have no experience with the fantasy genre either.  I do
know that I recall reading the same thing that Neil does -- although I
thought it was when she saw unicorns rather than the centaurs.  In any
case, I don't think she set out with the idea that HP was fantasy
(likewise, I maintain she didn't set out with the idea that it was a
childrens' series either).  I agree with Neil that there's every reason
to believe that she may not be (probably isn't?) following accepted
fantasy lit conventions.  I also seem to remember reading that she
admitted she hadn't read much "fantasy lit" & I could swear she went on
to say that she never cared much for Tolkien.  I could be making that
last part up though -- maybe something to do with I can't seem to get
into Tolkien myself.

Dumbledore -- I'm afraid I agree with Neil & Scott to some extent.  I
don't necessarily have any reason to think Dumbledore is on the bad/dark
side.  Like Brooks, I'm inclined to believe he is not at all on the dark
side at the moment.  But, I do think he's got the potential to be much
more multi-dimensional, with some shades of gray.  I also think JKR is
masterful at creating surprises & unexpected plot twists.  I don't
necessarily think she'll let the Bad Guys win or that Dumbledore will be
revealed to have been a baddie all along.  But, I suspect she'll
introduce more "gray" shades into our characters.  Snape is truly
multi-dimensional at the moment.  I think there are other characters who
have the potential to become so -- Dumbledore among them (Ron is another
prime suspect).

As for why he lets Snape get away with being so cruel to certain
students --  well, my guess is that he doesn't really concern himself
with the minute details of what happens in all the classes.  We don't
really know that Dumbledore prevented Snape from failing Harry in
potions that one year after all.  We just have Harry's thoughts that
Snape was giving him a "zero" & his later thoughts/suspicions that
Dumbledore must have intervened to prevent him from receiving a failing
grade.  It might just as easily have been McGonagall to intervene.  She
is head of Gryffindor & might have gotten advance notice of the final
grades of the students in her house.  My guess is that Dumbledore really
just doesn't know about Snape's specific conduct -- he probably has a
general idea (but I doubt that specific instances of abuse have reached
his ears).  Maybe there is a shortage of qualified teachers.  And,
there's definitely more to the Dumbledore-Snape relationship than we
know at this point.  And, he probably does think that having a "nasty"
teacher or two can't help but build character.  I sort of imagine that
the other profs have a pretty good idea of how nasty he is to students,
but they too may be short on the specifics.

BTW, I *do* think Snape is entirely out of line in how he runs his
classes -- no doubt he's a ill-tempered bitter man.  None of the above
is meant to excuse his behavior to some of the students.  I just think
Dumbledore likely doesn't know the specifics.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep  8 14:21:01 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:21:01 -0000
Subject: Henry/Harry
Message-ID: <8paskd+osee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1184

I keep thinking of the largest warship of Henry VIII's navy, the 
_Henry Grace a Dieu_ (sorry, don't know how to put the accents and 
etc. that go in there when i am not on my Mac) which was called the 
"Great Harry" for short.

-Brooks




From eliasheldon at ivillage.com  Fri Sep  8 14:31:17 2000
From: eliasheldon at ivillage.com (eliasheldon at ivillage.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:31:17 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEHMCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pat7l+6rlq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1185

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> Perhaps Dumbledore allows the behavior of teachers like Snape or 
Trelawney,
> or incompetents like Quirrell and Lockhart, because he simply has 
so little
> in the way of professors to choose from.  It has been suggested 
that the
> ranks of competent adult wizards have been thinned considerably in 
the years
> preceding Voldemort's downfall, and we've seen even more decimation 
of the
> troops as Voldemort struggles to return to power.  With all the 
world-wide
> wizarding schools competing for personnel, Dumbledore may have to 
take
> whatever he can get and hope for the best.
> 

IMHO, perhaps Dumbledore wants to expose the children to the 
realities of life through their experiences with these not-so-perfect 
teachers.  How many times have you looked back on a difficult teacher 
and realized that you learned a lot from them about yourself, about 
people, about life?  Difficult teachers prepare you for difficulties 
that you will encounter throughout your life.  With experiences as 
the Snape Dungeon to draw on, Harry will be better prepared for the 
difficult and sometimes evil people, situations, and challenges that 
he enounters later in life.

In fact, Rowling seems to be using the Dumbledore character to teach 
Harry the lessons of life that he will need to understand and learn 
in order to be a successful wizard.  The Mirror of Erised lesson, the 
sorting hat lesson, the difference between right and just in the 
pensieve, etc., are just a few examples of how the Dumbledore 
chracter is used to teach or reinforce some basic human truths. 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep  8 17:52:19 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:52:19 -0000
Subject: Really socks? (was Snape//COBOL)
Message-ID: <8pb90j+ma4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1186

	I assume Dumbledore really saw socks in the Mirror of Erised. 
However...
	Dumbledore's condition could be similar to that of the 
wizards of Earthsea and Discworld, ie.  his ability to fantasize  has 
been suppressed or at least distorted. 
So, much as  Dumbledore would like to get his hands on something warm 
and fuzzy,he, being a mature and magically powerful wizard, just
can't seem to get any, er,  socks...;). 
	 JKR is not just winking at us over Harry's shoulder here, I 
notice that people keep twitting Arthur Weasley about the size 
of his family, that most pure bloods seem to have one child at most, 
and that the really powerful wizards  seem to be single, with the 
exception of Crouch Sr., whose family life was a disaster.
	In GoF Percy Weasley has clearly put Penelope Clearwater right out 
of his mind, perhaps in an attempt to persuade his bosses at the MOM 
that he has proper wizarding pride. Also Ron says something in CoS 
about if "we hadn't married Muggles we'd have died out".
	This could be related to what somebody said earlier about the 
Death Eaters wanting to gain immortality...it could be they need a
way of perpetuating themselves without having to sully their heritage.
Just MHO.

	 





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep  8 19:13:42 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:13:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New HP book
Message-ID: <v02140bebb5deeac903e4@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1187

>
>I believe I've mentioned this website before, which includes website info for
>teachers:
>
>http://tlc.ai.org/rowling.htm
>
>Peg
>
Oops, sorry.  May have been before my time.  It's the first time we've had
in our store, I'm pretty sure.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep  8 18:30:30 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:30:30 -0000
Subject: Snape//COBOL
Message-ID: <8pbb86+rnsh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1188

There could be an additional explanation for Snapes' behaviour, not 
that I'm disagreeing with any of the others. He could be part Vampire!
I am new and apologize if this has come up before, but ...
	It would account for his rotten disposition, as a result of being 
forced to keep what to him are unnatural hours, he's always prowling 
around the schood at night, people keep comparing him to a bat, he 
bears a resemblance to Viktor Krum, who comes from Eastern Europe and 
has extraordinary flying abilities (yes, I think Vicky's one too, 
Hermione is in for a shock!) but back to Snape, it would explain all 
that business about Quirrel and the garlic, and give him a really
deep-seated ancestral reason to hate werewolves, and a nice
motivation for hating Harry and James, because, as he says somewhere, 
Potter does as he pleases. . Snape, IMHO, has instincts he dare not 
indulge...at least at Hogwart's anyway.





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  8 19:13:17 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:13:17 -0000
Subject: Not Henry, Harold, or Harrison
Message-ID: <8pbdod+j9mh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1189

I just want to throw in my two knuts: I am pretty convinced of what 
voicelady keeps saying: Harry's name is just Harry and not short for 
anything.




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  8 19:23:24 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:23:24 -0000
Subject: JKR and JRR
Message-ID: <8pbebc+q59e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1190

"I don't really like fantasy. It's not so much that I don't like it, 
I haven't really read a lot of it. I have read Lord of the Rings, 
though. I read that when I was about 14. I didn't read The Hobbit 
until I was in my 20s--much later. I'd started Harry Potter by then, 
and someone gave it to me, and I thought, Yeah, I really should read 
this, because people kept saying, 'You've read The Hobbit, 
obviously?' And I was saying, 'Um, no.' So I thought, Well, I will, 
and I did, and it was wonderful. [Sheepish smile]"


J.K. Rowling
quoted from an interview in Newsweek, July 10, 2000





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Sep  8 19:39:40 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 8 Sep 2000 12:39:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not Henry, Harold, or Harrison
Message-ID: <20000908193940.9604.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1191

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000908/eac09525/attachment.ksh>

From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep  8 20:08:43 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:08:43 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <8p9pkt+oda3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pbh0b+u4d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1192

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> 
wrote:
> > NEVER INSULT ALBUS DUMBLEDORE IN FRONT OF ME
> > 
> > Look at the characters who love and revere Dumbledore: James and 
> Lily 
> > Potter, Remus Lupin, Rubeus Hagrid, Sirius Black, Arabella Figg 
> (she 
> > couldn't be the same one as the Dursleys used to leave Harry with 
> > could she?), Minevera McGonagall, Arthur and Molly Weasley....etc.
> > This is significant. These are people who have known him 
throughout 
> > the last battles against Voldemort when no one was safe in their 
> > homes. (I just love the scene when the older Weasley brother 
> > immediately says "I'll go to Dad".....)
> > 
> > Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. 
> 
> I am with Susan on this one.  If Neil, Scott and anyone else 
continue 
> to say that Dumbledore is evil I will turn them into pigs with a 
wave 
> of my pink umbrella.
> 
> Seriously though, the thought of Dumbledore being a bad guy is just 
> too disturbing to contemplate.  I realize that I am the one that 
> suggested that perhaps evil would triumph in the end (i.e. Book 7) 
> but NOT THAT WAY!!!!!!
> 
> It is odd, though, how Snape gets away with being so incredibly 
> unfair.  How could it be possible that Dumbledore doesnt notice, or 
> care?  I could see that maybe he thinks being treated unfairly will 
> toughen them (Harry & co.) up, but what about Neville?  The way 
Snape 
> treats Neville is just cruel.  It really is hard to understand why 
> Dumbledore never intervenes.  But I REFUSE to believe that it is 
> because he is a bad guy.
> 
> -- Joywitch




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  8 21:31:07 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:31:07 -0000
Subject: Not Henry, Harold, or Harrison
In-Reply-To: <20000908193940.9604.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8pblqr+9d2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1193

D'oh!!  I feel stupid now.  Meant to mention Penny too but don't know 
why I didn't.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep  8 23:29:06 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:29:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape//also COBOL
In-Reply-To: <8pa3tj+3cj7@eGroups.com>
References: <8p88ja+8gqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000908162026.02a9f5e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1194

At 07:19 AM 9/8/00 +0000, Rita Winston wrote:
>Snape hates Harry despite having to keep him alive ... I mentioned that 
>for an adult to
>hate a child out of envy is NOT a sign of good mental health, but does
>happen.

I agree with all the above.

>I keep wanting to apply that to Snape, altho' it
>doesn't totally match: being a professor at Hogwarts is not a career
>failure, but a prestigeous job that I believe is well paid.

It's been my observation that there are many teachers who regard
teaching as a dead end career-wise, no matter what prestige might
be involved.  My high-school geology teacher made no bones about
her hatred of teaching -- she so clearly wanted to be a field
researcher.  Snape probably would much rather be in the lab working
his way toward being the Jonas Salk of Wizard Potions than being
stuck at Hogwarts "teaching dunderheads".

>Someone on HAS suggested, in that case, maybe Lucius started at
>Hogwarts when Snape was like a seventh-year...

My impression has been that Lucius is older than Snape.  Of course,
that may be because I keep seeing the silver screen actor Henry Daniel
("Garbage", Hinkle's right-hand man in Charlie Chaplin's _The Great
Dictator_) as Lucius Malfoy.



                                                 -- Dave




From egroups at pottershop.co.uk  Fri Sep  8 23:50:41 2000
From: egroups at pottershop.co.uk (The Harry Potter Store)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:50:41 +0100
Subject: Launch of The Harry Potter Shop
Message-ID: <013401c019ef$9da3a6c0$f0e693c3@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1195

Dear everyone,

Just a brief message to announce the launch of 'The Harry Potter Shop' at
www.pottershop.co.uk. I hope it's something all you fans out there may find
useful.

It could be great for newcomers, dedicated reader or hardcore collectors. We
have assembled a huge collection of Harry Potter books, tapes, gifts and other
items from around the world - all at bargain prices, and fully categorised.

Choose from over a hundred editions... we have the full Harry Potter series from
the USA, UK, France, Germany and Spain, with big savings. We also list
audio-books, teachers' classroom resources, biographies of J.K. Rowling,
calendars and more.

Plus, there are braille and largeprint editions and - for the real fans -
special cloth-bound editions, box sets and stocking fillers.

Thanks for your time... I hope this is of some use.

--
Editor, The Harry Potter Shop
http://www.pottershop.co.uk




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 01:13:08 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:13:08 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc2r4+li7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1196

Neil,

My reason for believing that Dumbledore cannot be evil is that there 
it would be a terrible betrayal on JKR's part to do so. Instead of
the Hero story of good and evil, the books would serve instead to 
teach their readers that 1) the world is no d*** good; 2)No one is to 
be trusted, ever; and 3) good is illusory. I would regret very much 
that my daughters ever read them. It would be about the worst things
a 
writer of young people's books ever did. There's enough cynicism as
it is. I don't believe for an instant that JKR is doing it.

You are right, I don't know for certain that Dumbledore
isn't going to turn out to be Dark. I do have a strong belief.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 01:33:57 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:33:57 -0400
Subject: OT/Handbook for writing sf.
References: <8pbdod+j9mh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00eb01c019fe$0665db20$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1197

Handbook for writing sf?    Just a bit more about a dead subject, and then I will leave it alone.  Here's a link to an auction running... Grins.

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/34228083

Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 01:55:14 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:55:14 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc5a2+dlhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1198

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Susan said:
> 
> >>>>>NEVER INSULT ALBUS DUMBLEDORE IN FRONT OF ME
> 
> I'm sorry Susan, I'll try not to get in front of you.  I love 
Dumbledore
> too, 

Oh, my goodness, how difficult email is. I was quoting Hagrid in the 
first book. 

I was not saying that you shouldn't get physically in front of me.
That phrase is usually meant to mean "in my presence", in this case, 
in my cyber presence, but also is a statement meant to display 
loyalty. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 01:59:28 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:59:28 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc5i0+p916@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1199

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Susan said:
> 
> > 
Someone posted a very eloquent and scholarly post on one of the Harry
> Potter lists about how fiction works..
> 

The response:
> Good for them.  They should get a Nobel prize if they can 
define "how  fiction works". In my opinion, fiction is about 
imagination and there should
> be no rule book. Why not break moulds and challenge conventions?  I 
do agree > that there has to be some integrity to the characters and 
plot, however, and
> that we have to trust the portrayal of Harry Potter at least.  With 
the > other characters there are most likely secrets to be unearthed: 
some good, > some bad. 
> 


I wish I had saved the post. The original poster was not talking 
about "rules" in the sense that I might have inadvertantly implied.
S/he was discussing why great literature "works". S/he was saying 
that great literature has integrity. There's a lot of fan fiction, 
for example, that in my opinion ignores this "rule", and is just too 
far fetched to be any fun (to me). For example, Dumbledore and 
McGonagall having a secret affair or the examples Rowlings herself 
cites --- if she had Hermione get pregnant(does anyone else remember 
this interview), the characters would not be true to themselves.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 02:01:08 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:01:08 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908043404.009c6598@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc5l4+2egk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1200

> 
> Why does everyone keep mentioning "Lord of the Rings"?  JK Rowling 
has said herself that she was not much of a reader of fantasy, so 
there is no reason  to assume that LOTR was a major influence 
[correct me if I'm wrong] any more  than there is to assume she has 
followed a 'how to write fantasy and these  are the rules' guide book.
> 
> Neil (a scientist - what did you expect?)   
> 
> 

But I don't assume anything of the kind. Have you read LOTR, Neil? If 
you have, you'll know that these analogies just jump out at 
you.......There are dozens of similarities.....

Susan            




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 02:02:50 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:02:50 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908044454.009b0810@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc5oa+b3d0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1201

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> At 04:23 09/08/2000 -0000, Joywitch wrote:
> 
> >> Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. 
> >
> >I am with Susan on this one.  If Neil, Scott and anyone else 
continue 
> >to say that Dumbledore is evil I will turn them into pigs with a 
wave 
> >of my pink umbrella.
> 
> No!!! Help!!!!  I've reconsidered.  Here is my latest theory:
> 
> Dumbledore is totally good.  He is not bad or flawed in any way.  
We should
> not question his goodness.  He is divine.
> 
> Neil
> 


And just when we were having such a good argument! Neil, did you
miss it when I said that people were complex, and that Dumbledore
has made mistakes? (Well, you must have or you wouldn't have posted 
this!) Please -- I know I'm eloquent -- but don't give up your 
arguments yet!

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 02:03:02 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:03:02 -0000
Subject: Our Man Snape and Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000908044454.009b0810@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8pc5om+5uif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1202

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
> At 04:23 09/08/2000 -0000, Joywitch wrote:
> 
> >> Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. 
> >
> >I am with Susan on this one.  If Neil, Scott and anyone else 
continue 
> >to say that Dumbledore is evil I will turn them into pigs with a 
wave 
> >of my pink umbrella.
> 
> No!!! Help!!!!  I've reconsidered.  Here is my latest theory:
> 
> Dumbledore is totally good.  He is not bad or flawed in any way.  
We should
> not question his goodness.  He is divine.
> 
> Neil
> 


And just when we were having such a good argument! Neil, did you
miss it when I said that people were complex, and that Dumbledore
has made mistakes? (Well, you must have or you wouldn't have posted 
this!) Please -- I know I'm eloquent -- but don't give up your 
arguments yet!

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 02:09:44 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:09:44 -0000
Subject: echoes of LOTR was  Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
In-Reply-To: <39B8CFF7.AEEF9936@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8pc658+g2pb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1203

And, as someone else
> pointed out, there are echos between the two books ("The pity of 
Bilbo may rule the fate of many") and certain characters 
(Wormtongue/Wormtail).
> 
> Peg

yes, I immediately thought of Gollum when Dumbledore told
Harry that it wasn't necessarily a mistake for him to have
spared Peter Pettigrew -- that saving a life created a bond
between those two wizards...

It reminded me of Frodo saying that Gollum deserved to die and
Gandalf saying that many deserved to live who had died - could Frodo 
give them life? and of course, it was Gollum who saved Frodo at the 
end....

I was thinking this morning about Boromir's betrayal, and wondering 
if in fact Ron will betray Harry

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 02:15:50 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:15:50 -0000
Subject: JKR and JRR
In-Reply-To: <8pbebc+q59e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pc6gm+pipc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1204

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> "I don't really like fantasy. It's not so much that I don't like 
it, 
> I haven't really read a lot of it. I have read Lord of the Rings, 
> though. I read that when I was about 14. I didn't read The Hobbit 
> until I was in my 20s--much later. I'd started Harry Potter by 
then, > and someone gave it to me, and I thought, Yeah, I really 
should read   this, because people kept saying, 'You've read The 
Hobbit,  obviously?' And I was saying, 'Um, no.' So I thought, Well, 
I will,  and I did, and it was wonderful. [Sheepish smile]"
> 
> 
> J.K. Rowling
> quoted from an interview in Newsweek, July 10, 2000

Well, in my opinion, you can't read the Lord of the Rings and not be 
influenced by it, especially if you read it at 14. Like Rowlings, it 
sinks deep into the imagination.

I'm puzzled that those who haven't read much fantasy are anti-
fantasy..it almost seems equivalent to those who haven't read Harry 
Potter slamming it for devil worship....

Susan




From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep  9 02:48:09 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:48:09 -0500
Subject: Anti-Fantasy?
References: <8pc6gm+pipc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39B9A4E9.E0AB3CA6@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1205

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> I'm puzzled that those who haven't read much fantasy are anti-
> fantasy..it almost seems equivalent to those who haven't read Harry
> Potter slamming it for devil worship....

Susan -- not sure if I'm included in the above.  I did make the
statement that, like Neil, I'm not that familiar with the fantasy genre
as a whole.  I certainly never said I was *anti-fantasy.*  I just said
I'd not read much of it - so it's hard for me to judge if JKR is
adhering to or departing from traditional fantasy conventions.  I loved
Watership Down in high school.  I love HP (indisputably &
unconditionally).  I decided that maybe I hadn't given the genre a fair
chance so I picked up The Hobbit & LOTR.  Finished The Hobbit but didn't
much care for it.  But, I thought "Well, LOTR is supposedly his
masterpiece.  I'll give that a go."  I'm about 1/3 through with the
first one in the trilogy & haven't been the least tempted to pick it
back up.

JKR herself is the one who is quoted as saying that she doesn't much
like fantasy (and then corrects herself to say that it's not so much
that she dislikes it as she hasn't read much of it).

So far though -- I don't think anyone on this list has said "I've not
read much fantasy but I'm against that genre."  I'm not at all sure
where you picked up this idea.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 02:51:38 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 02:51:38 -0000
Subject: HP Stickers, Snape, Dumbledore, etc.
Message-ID: <8pc8jq+ou47@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1206

(This is my attempt to comply with the founders' command to combine 
replies into a single post.)

HOUSE PENNANT STICKERS

One of my former fifth graders found HP merchandise this summer 
during a trip to either Virginia or West Virginia.  She and her mom  
purchased an item for me--a set of HP House "Pennant" stickers.  
Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw are all rendered 
with mascot and in the appropriate colors.  I'm not sure where to 
purchase them, but as a Quidditch fan thought I would mention it.  :)

SNAPE AND TEACHING

I'm much too weary to get on my K-12 teaching soap box today.  At 
this point I am convinced that American education will fail if public 
perception/training/compensation of the teaching force does not 
change.  This country will need 2 million teachers in the next 5-10 
years.  Common sense should reveal to the American public that 
telling its brightest and best that "those who can, do; those who 
can't, teach" is self-defeating to say the least.  IMO it is rather 
like shooting ourselves in the collective foot. 

While Snape is not my favorite character, I am not shocked by his 
negative teaching style.  Anyone who seeks to condemn him should 
spend a day or two teaching an overcrowded room of adolescents.  
Every teacher has Snapish moments.  We're not perfect, and neither 
are the kids we teach.

DUMBLEDORE AND FICTION RULES

Yes, there are rules in fiction.  Most successfully published writers 
follow the rules to a fault and produce the mass of material on store 
bookshelves--it is known as "category fiction" in publishing.  We 
enjoy their books and then we go on with our lives not noticeably 
altered.  

However, there are rare authors who are masters of the craft.  They 
transcend genre.  They don't follow rules.  They create their own.  
Their stories speak not just to their contemporaries but to all 
generations.  Their tales are not just for a particular reading 
preference group.  They are for everyone.

Having said that, I think I will reserve final judgment on 
Dumbledore's character until we know more about where the main plot 
is headed.  Not knowing is fun sometimes.

HARRY NAME DEBATE

I'm still not convinced that Harry's name is just Harry if his middle 
name is James.  JKR has a knack for getting character names just 
right.  As I ranted on the PoU list last week, Harry James Potter 
doesn't seem *just right* for several reasons.  (No, Penny, I am 
*not* trying to annoy you--we do agree on most other issues.  Today 
while listening to GoF I found another small H/H support I don't 
think anyone's mentioned yet... so don't argue me down! :))  

TEACHING HP and LIT ANALYSIS

Will look up the Teaching HP book next time I head to Borders... 
thanks, Lori, for the recommendation.  I do hope the information is 
not repetitive or impractical like many similar teacher's guides.  
And with the length/depth of some of the posts here lately, I'm glad 
that I signed up for a 7000 Lit Theory course this semester.  Perhaps 
all the essays and discourses will help strengthen my positions re: 
the recurring topics here.  

(NOTICE:  Will upload to FORT soon as I catch some z's, FAQers--don't 
fuss at me for posting here and not working, please!  I've been 
working all day.  Cut me some slack!  :)

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Sep  9 02:41:38 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:41:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Stickers, Snape, Dumbledore, etc.
Message-ID: <200009090309.e8939Vv20243@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1207

>Today
>while listening to GoF I found another small H/H support I don't
>think anyone's mentioned yet... so don't argue me down! :))


Ebony, don't tease!  What is it?

Kathy




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep  9 04:16:34 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:16:34 -0700
Subject: Guides to Harry Potter
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEILCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1208

I checked Amazon for the book mentioned by Lori ("Teaching Harry Potter")
and found similar titles, but not an exact match.  The literature guides
seem a bit pricey, since they are all less than 20 pages long, but they
sound fairly interesting.

 In Stock/Readily Available
 1.
     Harry Potter Literature Guide: Chamber of Secrets
     Paperback (July 2000)
     Our Price:$5.35
     You Save: $0.60 (10%)

 2.
     Harry Potter Literature Guide: Prisoner of Azkaban
     Paperback (July 2000)
     Our Price:$5.35
     You Save: $0.60 (10%)

 3.
     Harry Potter Literature Guide: Sorcerer's Stone
     Paperback (July 2000)
     Our Price:$5.35
     You Save: $0.60 (10%)

 On Order/Not Yet Published
 4.
     Beacham's Sourcebook For Teaching Young Adult Fiction: Exploring
     Harry Potter
     by Elizabeth D. Schafer. Hardcover (September 15, 2000)
     Our Price:$19.96
     You Save: $4.99 (20%)

 5.
     Harry Potter Literature Guide: Goblet of Fire
     Paperback (September 2000)
     Our Price:$5.35
     You Save: $0.60 (10%)




=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.anewlife.org/
Current Book:   "The Quickening" by Stuart Wilde
Quote:  "It takes a truly moral man or woman to simply leave other people
alone."                          Cosmic Command, #981 (Vernon Howard)
=============================================





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep  9 04:14:12 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:14:12 -0500
Subject: Courtesy and ambition
Message-ID: <39B9B914.22E1435B@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1209

Peg's chew toys for the day: Courtesy and ambition.

Courtesy. I note that Rowling often signals that someone is on Our Team
by making them
courteous. Lupin is a particularly good example of this, as is
Dumbledore, who is always able
to say something tactful to smooth out spats between staff, students,
and members of the
Ministry of Magic.

We perhaps should have been suspicious of the faux Mad-Eye Moody from
the very beginning,
starting when he turned Draco into the amazing bouncing ferret. How
rude! (Even though it
WAS funny.)

The Dursleys and the Malfoys show the opposite tendency. They are as
rude as they can
possibly be--remember how Mr. Weasley chided the Dursleys because they
wouldn't say
good-bye to Harry? (Contrast that behavior with Mr. Weasley's in the
same scene, who
apologized for the mess he made of the Dursley's living room, and tried
to make polite
conversation with Dudley.) And remember when Mr. Weasley got into the
brawl with Lucius
Malfoy (and yes, Lucius Malfoy started it). Mrs. Weasley brought Mr.
Weasley to his senses
by an appeal to courtesy ("What will the Grangers think?").

Side note: then what do we make of Snape, who is incredibly nasty and
rude (such as his sneering comment when Malfoy hexed Hermione's teeth,
making them grow? "I see no
difference.") His nastiness in book 1 was part of the reason Harry, Ron
and Hermione were
so surprised when they discovered that Snape was actually guarding
Harry's life, rather than
threatening it. Snape's lack of courtesy is one technique Rowling uses
to hide her cards about
what's really going on with him. If he's Our Man Snape (i.e., on Our
team), why is he so nasty? I think this characteristic of Snape is one
of the ways Rowling keeps us off balance as to knowing whether he's
really to be trusted or not.

Ambition. Ambition is one of the primary markers of the House of
Slytherin. It creates a
weak spot for characters that can lead them to turn them to evil. (This
is the primary reason I
worry about Percy's future in particular.)

Ambition brought down both Barty Crouch Sr. (who aspired to be the
Minister of Magic)
and Jr. (who aspired to be Voldemort's right hand man).

Dumbledore identifies ambition as the primary reason that Fudge is not
doing his job and
seizing the moment to do what he has to do to stop Voldemort.

Again, Rowling uses ambition as part of the reason we don't trust Snape:
he is lusting after the
Defense Against the Dark Arts Job.

And yet . . . it's not quite so simple, is it?  (With Rowling, it never
is.) Harry is ambitious, too: he wants to win at Quidditch, which makes
him search out an answer to manage his fear of Dementors in PoA.  And
although he didn't enter the Tri-Wizard Tournament, once his name comes
out of the goblet, he wants to win it. He realized from the beginning
that whoever had put his name in might very well have nefarious
motivations, but he didn't struggle very hard to get out of competing.
Was that because he believed Dumbledore and the faux Moody, that he had
no choice to compete--or did his own ambition make him swallow
Voldemort's bait, even though he had his eyes open to the danger?

And then, to compound the complexity of it all, Rowling took one of
Harry's noblest moments, his decision to conquer his personal ambition
and instead share the Tournament win and the glory with Cedric--and that
decision sealed Cedric's doom.  Now THAT's irony--take your hero's
noblest decision and have it lead directly to a terrible, tragic
disaster. (As a writer, I found myself hopping up and down with a
combination of joy and envy of her skill when I read that--oh, damn,
JKR: what a twist!)

Further comments?

"Cromwell, I charge thee, fling away ambition:
By that sin fell the angels . . ."

Shakespeare, Henry VIII

Peg
Who really does try to be polite and isn't feeling particularly
ambitious at the moment.




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  9 05:26:22 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:26:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Courtesy and ambition
Message-ID: <v02140bf0b5df79a49413@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1210


Ambition, in the history of literature, is always a sticking point.  It is
something that is valued in the real world and yet always seems to signal a
fictional character's doom.

I think it is not the ambition that is the crucial point, but rather what
the ambition makes the person do.  If ambition leads you to study hard and
apply yourself, your rewards are just.  If ambition leads you to cheat,
trample on others and do anything to get to your goal then any victory you
achieve will be Pyrrhic at best...more often than not no victory is
achieved at all.

Snape's ambition to be the DaDA professor turned him bitter and leads him
to cut down those who get the job.  Harry's ambition led him to expand his
knowledge, engage in teamwork with his friends, and test his own limits.

Ambition is nothing without means to achieves its ends.  Those means are
what distinguishes the characters.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  9 05:28:09 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:28:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Guides to Harry Potter
Message-ID: <v02140bf1b5df7a90cba3@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1211


> On Order/Not Yet Published
> 4.
>     Beacham's Sourcebook For Teaching Young Adult Fiction: Exploring
>     Harry Potter
>     by Elizabeth D. Schafer. Hardcover (September 15, 2000)
>     Our Price:$19.96
>     You Save: $4.99 (20%)
>
This is it.  I remember the author's name.

It's definitely published.  I had a copy in my hands yesterday.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Cider House Rules"
Reigning car-CD:  "Strictly Ballroom" soundtrack
Current book: "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson
***********************************************************





From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Sep  9 04:36:28 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:36:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Courtesy and ambition
Message-ID: <200009090505.e8955Kv08101@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1212

>Snape's ambition to be the DaDA professor turned him bitter and leads him
>to cut down those who get the job.


Just a side-note: does anyone else think it's weird that "Snape really wants 
the Dark Arts job" BUT in CoS, Lockhart gets it because no one else wants it?  
(supposedly, anyway).  Of course, Dumbledore may have his own reasons for not 
giving Snape the job.


Kathy




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 06:02:12 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:02:12 +0100
Subject: Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good (Far too long)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000909060212.013b6d78@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1213

Susan, thanks for responding to all my posts!  If the other members will
indulge me, I'll respond to you in one Hagrid-sized effort, and I'll quite
understand if you all nod off.

First of all, as most established members of this club would know, I'm not
always serious in the comments I make.  I'm also prone to throwing up wild
theories and then having other members point out something really obvious
from one of the books that negates them.  I play Harry to their Hermione,
and they walk away shaking their heads at my careless lack of research.
Just so you know 

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     "I was not saying that you shouldn't get physically in front of me.
     That phrase is usually meant to mean "in my presence", in this case, 
     in my cyber presence, but also is a statement meant to display 
     loyalty. Sorry I wasn't more clear."
     **

You were clear and now you're stunning me with your lexicological prowess.
For the record, I did appreciate the origin and intention of the statement.
I seemed to have incurred your wrath with my Dumbledore comments and was
trying to imply, using a play on words, that I should keep out of your way
in case you trampled me under your massive hobnailed boots.  Perhaps, I
should have written <VBG> after it.   <VBG>

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     "I wish I had saved the post. The original poster was not talking 
     about "rules" in the sense that I might have inadvertantly implied.
     S/he was discussing why great literature "works". S/he was saying 
     that great literature has integrity."
     **

Someone here (Ebony, I think) has made reference to the essay you mentioned
and will hopefully spring up and tell us what it was and who wrote it.  I'd
like to see it.

There is a difference between the phrases "how fiction works" and "why great
fiction works" but I was being a little obtuse in my response to you.   Many
writers follow literary rules to good effect and with great fiction there is
often a 'je ne sais quoi' that makes it stand out from the rest.  

If in mentioning integrity, it was implied that conventions are not
challenged, I'd disagree that integrity is necessarily the mark of great
literature.  An element of surprise and originality can lie in the fact that
the reader's expectations are dashed on the rocks, and these can be
expectations of the structure as much as the plot of a book.  

A unique twist in the imagination of the writer may be the indefinable
element that makes something great.  Integrity of the characters is more
important, I agree.  This has to extend to fan fiction for it to have any
credence, but it appears that a subset of fanfic just has fun with 'what
if...?' scenarios and that's okay too.         
 
     **
     SUSAN SAID (Re. Lord of the Rings - why do people keep mentioning it?):
     "Have you read LOTR, Neil? If you have, you'll know that these
analogies        just jump out at you.......There are dozens of
similarities....."
     **

No, I haven't read "Lord of the Rings".  Exactly like Penny, I've read "The
Hobbit" and I have a bookmark stuck about a third of the way through my copy
of LOTR, left there when I was about 20. Just shoot me!

It just struck me that there had been a series of comments made about
similarities between LOTR and the Harry Potter books [quite interesting, but
not evidence of anything], and suddenly this seminal work was being used to
support the supposition that JKR was bound to a similar balance of Good
against Evil.  The quote that Brooks dug out indicates that JKR read LOTR
when she was 14, but it obviously didn't change her life.

     **
     SUSAN SAID: (In response to my joke response to Joywitch): 
     "And just when we were having such a good argument! Neil, did you
     miss it when I said that people were complex, and that Dumbledore
     has made mistakes? (Well, you must have or you wouldn't have posted 
     this!) Please -- I know I'm eloquent -- but don't give up your 
     arguments yet!"
     **

I read and understood your eloquent comments on Dumbledore being complex and
I agree with them.  I was responding to your primary statement, following
your evidence of Dumbledore's past battles against the Dark side:
"Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. He is the great opponent of Lord
Voldemort, just as Gandalf is the Enemy of Sauron."  

I don't want to be labelled as 'Neil - that fool who thinks Dumbledore is
evil'.  My original intention was to try to explain why Dumbledore overlooks
Snape's unpleasant behaviour, by suggesting that this would not present such
a dilemma if Dumbledore were not automatically assumed to be the force for
good.  
Dumbledore is flawed, he is fallible and there may be some darker secrets
within him.  I threw up the idea that he might turn out to be the 'baddie'
in a startling denouement, but, deep down,  I don't really think he is evil.
I agree that he probably is a force for good, but I remain suspicious of his
motives and I don't trust him.  

In previous posts, I've also mentioned Dumbledore's mental state and
decline, as I think some of his later behaviour may fall outside his
currently accepted persona.   

There are three more books in this series and the chances are that none of
us will be able to predict what JKR has in store for Albus Dumbledore.
Personally, I see the overriding story arc turning into a power struggle,
rather than one of merely Good vs Evil.  You can string me up later, when
I'm proved wrong <g>. 

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     I'm puzzled that those who haven't read much fantasy are anti-
     fantasy..it almost seems equivalent to those who haven't read Harry 
     Potter slamming it for devil worship....
     **

Uh? Well, Penny has already said it, but I'll add that I am not on an
anti-fantasy crusade either.  I think I said the genre seems quite rigid to
me, and I suppose I should have specified that I mean the LOTR-type stuff.
I enjoy fantasy literature and I can thank JK Rowling for having inspired my
research in this domain and opened up new possibilities for my already
groaning bookshelves. 

I may even attempt LOTR again one day.

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 09:40:26 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:40:26 +0100
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
Message-ID: <39BA058A.BF83408@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1214

 "Pam Scruton" <Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Penny Linsenmayer  <linsenma at h...> wrote:
>
>> Nope!  It's not.  It can be a short form of Henry, but is virtually
>> never a short form for Harold.  The more common short form of
>>Harold is  Hal.

>Oh well, I must be an incredibly lucky person then if it is virtually
>never a short form for Harold because I personally know six of them,
>one of whom is 85 years old.  I also personally know two Henrys, one
>of whom is known as Harry and the other is known as Rocky.  (Both of
>whom were born around the same time as Prince Henry who is known as
>Harry.)  I don't personally know anybody known as Hal at all
>(although I do know *of* one and I do personally know a horse of that
>name - owner is a Shakespeare fan and the Hal isn't short for
>anything).

>My experience as a Brit living in various parts of the UK at some
>time or another but currently in Scotland is that Harry can be, and
>often is, short for both Harold and Henry.

This is my experience as well. IMHO, very few kids would want to be
named either, and a shortened form is more appropriate.

I grew up with two grandfathers, both christened Harold, both
known as Harry. Looking it up on a number of baby name lists
(example: http://www.babynames.com/) also gives this and the meaning
for Harry which is synonymous with that of Harold.  I found it
interesting that the meaning of Hedwig - battling - related to this
meaning as well. Penny referred to Harry as anglicized 'Henri'. This
suggests post-1066 - remembering the last Anglo-Saxon
king was named Harold.

I would also agree that some people now are just named 'Harry', 
just as you find people with birth names such as Ray, Debbie or 
Judy, which in times past would have been nicknames for more 
formal sounding name.

As to why 'Harry' might have been chosen. Rowling does appear to enjoy
the sounds of names. . Both Harry & Potter strike me as very English and
down-to-earth names with a pleasant sound.


Vivienne



From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 09:41:45 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:41:45 +0100
Subject: Wicca
Message-ID: <39BA05D9.87559907@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1215

On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:43:44 -0000 "Rita Winston" <catlady at wicca.net>
wrote:

>While the religion named Wicca is also called Witchcraft, it has
>NOTHING to do with the 'witchcraft' in HP. If only JKR had called the
>females wizardesses instead of witches, she could have skipped the
>word 'witchcraft' altogether. I cannot emphasis enough how wildly
>different it is for a person to do magic by praying to the gods and
>building a strong mental concentration on a set of symbols, than for
>a person to do magic because they have a rare inborn magic power
>and a wand with a realio-trulio dragon heartstring!

It's important to keep in mind that JKR is writing fantasy and unlikely
from a perspective that has any real awareness of 'Wicca' as a
religion, which in the terms you put it appears to have little to do
with magic and spellcraft. She is drawing from popular lore as well
as a good imagination. I doubt anyone except a few strange Christians
think there is anything more to it.

If anything, what she is writing about links more to traditional
witchcraft, where the notion that a child can be born
with an innate talent for magic remains.

However, the idea of a wand or other magical tool (and they are
tools in the Harry Potter books as well) being suited to the
individual, is so. Certainly within the British magical
community there are a number of tool-makers who learnt their
skills from traditional sources and they stress the
importance of there being resonance between tool and user.

(as someone with a fondness for dragons the idea of a wand
with a dragon heartstring is most upsetting. One would hope that
any bits of magical creatures within wands would be given willingly
by the creature.)

>Therefore, what Wiccans believe about names is basically irrelevant
>to HP. What matters is what JKR believes about names.

>However, for the record, while individual Wiccans are welcome to
>believe in numerology and so on, the most common idea about names in
>Wicca is that your birth name doesn't particularly matter at all,
>except for legal documents, and your self-chosen name matters only as
>much as you make it matter. Some people have been given new names by
>the gods, which is a whole 'nother story.

I think this echoes somewhat my posting about the spiritual significance
of names and not only from a numerological point of view. A name can 
have power in itself whether conferred by parents, (in some instances 
creating a link with an ancestor), taken with self-consciousness or 
conferred from another source.



Vivienne



From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 10:57:01 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:57:01 -0000
Subject: OT Re: You know you're from Ohio if... (Aside humour...)
In-Reply-To: <8p1rpc+1hbh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pd51t+h5ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1216

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Dee (Denise) R" <gypsycaine at y...> 
wrote:
> You know you're from Ohio if...
> 12. You carry jumper cables in your car.

doesn't everyone have jumper leads in thier car? I thought this was 
just a sensible precaution (Mind you I also have towels, food, water, 
tourch and a varity of other things so maybe I'm a bit over sensible)

> 17. The local paper covers national and international headlines on 
one page but requires 6 pages for sports.
HAH local paper - what about major city daily? (the Sydeny morning 
heald has just changed it's format for much the worse)
.




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 11:30:24 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:30:24 -0000
Subject: Family for Harry (was Re: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire)
In-Reply-To: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8pd70g+gujv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1217

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> So I ask you, as we look at the series as a whole: what do you think
> Harry wants the most? Oh, that's easy, you say--we saw it in the 
first
> book. He saw what he wanted most in the Mirror of Erised: his 
family.
> Yes, but his family is dead now, and Dumbledore warned him not to 
get
> stuck dwelling on that desire.  

But is his family dead? Just because his paternal family (who appear 
in the Mirror) are not around doesn't mean he doesn't have some 
distant cousin out there. AND more to the point, what about his 
maternal family? Where are they? Can it be that James was the only 
child of only children and Lily one of two silblings of two only 
children? I think we may see them come back in some shape or form - 
after all Aunt Pet is pretty estranged from her family (seeing them 
as favouring Lily) so maybe they are around somewhere

(I hope) snuffles




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 12:15:57 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 13:15:57 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sacred Power in your name
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000909121557.00aebd28@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1218

At the risk of pressing one of Penny's buttons, I have to agree that, as
well as being a name in its own right, Harry is a shortened form of both
Harold and Henry, at least in the UK.

Without leafing through 'Meanings of Names' books, I'd suggest that Harry is
an 'official', established shortening of Henry, because it isn't immediately
obvious - a bit like shortening Richard to Dick or William to Bill. You
couldn't guess at those nicknames they weren't commonly used.  

Harry and Hal are both shortened forms of Harold in a more colloquial sense,
arising from the fact that people - especially those with certain dialects -
often shorten names to one syllable or extend them with a 'y' as indicator
of familiarity.  I used to work with this guy who was such a trueblood
Cockney that he never ceased to remind us all that he was "born within the
sound of Bow Bells".  He would call myself and my colleagues thus:
Sheila=She, Maureen=More, Peter=Pete, Bradley=Brad, Ivan=Ive, Hilary=Hill,
Neil=Nee.  Sometimes he would call me Neily, and Mark would get called
Marky, Ann would be Anny and Dick would be Dicky (or Richard).  It was in
his nature to change our given names in some way to indicate that we were
his friends, that we had built up a rapport.  His own name was Ted, short
for Edward. 

Another point to mention on the name Harry is that the word 'harry' means
"to ravage or despoil" or "to harrass or worry" and is derived from the old
English 'here', meaning "army".  Don't worry I'm not brewing up a 'Harry is
evil' theory, but if we turn those phrases against Voldemort, I think it's
safe to say that he was ravaged or destroyed by the infant Harry.  All the
evidence suggests that Harry is a powerful wizard, with the capability to do
great damage, but with the morality to control that potential.

The word 'potter', apart from meaning someone who makes pots, is the
equivalent of the US word 'putter', meaning to dabble in something, dawdle,
fritter one's time or amble about, amiably, doing something.  I won't
attempt to read much into that, but record it here for posterity.

My final point is that I agree with Penny: our Harry is just 'Harry'.  He's
not a Harold or a Henry or a Harrison or a Hare Krishna disciple.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 12:36:46 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (snuffles )
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 12:36:46 -0000
Subject: Dumbleodre and Snape
Message-ID: <8pdasu+tv8t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1219

It has taken me more than 2 hours to catch up the weeks' posts - WOW!

but to Dumbelodre and Snape. Dumbledore could MAKE Snape be nice - 
but he won't. Because Snape is going to have to come to curtisy 
(thank you Peg - great post)on his own time. Having been a Slytherin 
and a DE it seems he has a long way to come from. 

But what about the damage he does in the interum, Why doesn't 
dumbledore stop this? Well, I think because part of growing up is 
experanceing challenges and surving them. What Snape does is 
emotinally damaging (think Hermoine's teeth, taking points unfairly, 
forcing Nevelle to pickele frogs)but despite Snape's many threats to 
posion or phycically hurt Harry he hasn't actually done it, and when 
aceidents do happen in the class they seem to happen equally to the 
Slytherins and the Griffs (eg the swelling potion). 

Which leads me to another point, the Harry and co don't seem like 
children, they do seem more emotionally robust like uni age kids. I 
mean that they have the potienal (and are) changing and evolving but 
they are so together! This comment is limited by:
1. by the fact that I don't actually know any children, only dogs 
(fortuately the two are not the same). 
2. I know uni kids are not all that emotionally stable - having been 
one - but it was better than being 11, 12 etc.
 
Also maybe I am more comfortable with Dumbeldore's failure to 
intervine if I see Harry and co as older than their stated ages.

I'm not trying to defend Snape, but I am interested to consider why 
Dumbeldore does not interviene. I don't want to beleive either that 
he is bad or loosing it due to age and infermity. (when someone 
suggested that Dumbeldore might go over to Voldy's side I just 
wanted  to cry - NNNNOOOOO!) I want him to be really good. but it is 
hard to reconcile this need with his behaviour towards Snape.

SO - what do you think?







From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep  9 14:47:49 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:47:49 -0500
Subject: Ambition
Message-ID: <39BA4D95.A8793CB@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1220

Hi --

As always Peg has given us lots to chew on.  I thought I'd jump into the
fray this time -- previously all my thoughts were stated by others
before I joined the debate.  So . . . .

AMBITION -- Ambition is definitely a prime characteristic of Slytherins,
and how interesting that it seems so often to lead the Slytherins down a
dark path (we as yet haven't been introduced to any Slytherins whose
ambition leads to good or noble ends, although surely they must exist).
I think JKR has lots to say about ambition if we think about it (and
probably tons more to come).

Percy is a prime example.  We the readers have picked up on Percy's
driving ambition since Book One.  It seems to me that Ron mentioned
Percy's ambition at least once in every book.  Of course, his ambitious
career goals are outlined quite noticeably in GoF.  But, we all knew
Percy was ambitious prior to GoF.  But, is his ambition truly the
hallmark of Percy's character?  It is the thing that most immediately
comes to my mind when I think of Percy, and yet, he ended up in
Gryffindor rather than Slytherin.  One wonders if (a) he asked the
Sorting Hat to be in Gryffindor since the rest of his family had been
(much like Harry does) or (b) if the Sorting Hat recognized that
ambition is not the whole nature of Percy after all.

I suspect it might be the latter.  We've been led to believe that his
ambition is the driving force behind everything he does and everything
he is.  Ron suggests in GoF that Percy would choose his ambitious goals
over his family, and Hermione immediately takes Ron to task for that
insinuation.  If I had to guess, I'd say (to quote Sirius) that Hermione
has got the better measure of the man than Ron.  I think if Percy is
forced to make difficult choices, he will, in the end, choose his
family.  I also think that Percy will struggle with the decision but
choose to abandon upward mobility in Fudge's MoM in favor of family
loyalty.

The other interesting thing about ambition & the Weasleys is that we
learn in GoF that Percy is *not* the only Weasley with high ambition.
Fred & George -- who'd have guessed it -- have their own ambitions &
goals & plans.  It seems that they've had their plan in motion for a
good long while prior to GoF too (Ginny comments that they'd been
inventing things for years).  Though it might have started out as simply
goofing around for fun, eventually it turned into a business plan.
They're mature enough to have thought through that they need capital & a
plan of action.

And, of course, there's Ron.  I think Ron has far more ambition than he
even realizes.  We see his envy of others & dislike of his own poverty
(together with its attendant growing ambitions on his part) becoming
more & more pronounced in GoF.  I think this trend will only continue.
I know others will disagree, but I see Ron as being far more likely to
be seduced (unwittingly) by the dark side as a result of his ambitions
than any of the other Weasleys.

I would guess that Bill, Charlie & Ginny have their own ambitions as
well, but we haven't seen much of it yet.

Harry's ambition -- Peg touched on some things.  Think back to the
Sorting Hat again -- it notes that Harry has "a nice thirst to prove"
himself.  "Proving himself" can be a form of ambition.  It can also be a
means of overcoming his fundamental insecurity (that is proving himself
"worthy").  The Sorting Hat also told him that he could be "great" and
that Slytherin could help him on his path to greatness.  Was the Sorting
Hat appealing to Harry's ambitious side?  Harry didn't succumb, and of
course, this is largely because he thinks he'd turn out to be "dark" if
he were in Slytherin.  He doesn't know too much more than hearsay about
the Slytherin House at that point.  But, it seems that nobility
outweighed ambition for Harry in the final choice.  As Dumbledore said
in CoS, Harry's choices were more determinative than who he might
otherwise be (making him far different than Tom Riddle).

Harry is clearly very ambitious and competitive.  I would say that he's
competitive on the Quidditch field.  But, he's ambitious when it comes
to winning the Quidditch Cup and the House Cup each year.  As Peg
pointed out, he was clearly ambitious with respect to the TriWizard
Tournament.  He wishes on different occasions that he'd never been
entered into the Tournament, but yet, as Peg points out, he didn't try
very hard to get out of it.  And, he can't help imagining himself as the
Champion, despite all his protestations and the dangers that he knows
must be lurking.

Like Peg, I'm in awe that JKR took one of  Harry's noblest decisions and
turned it into tragedy.  I think it's worth noting though that his
actions in the 2nd Task might be arguably more freely noble than his
actions in the 3rd Task.  He's a bit reluctant & disgruntled about
sharing the Cup -- he *knows* it's the right thing to do, but I think he
has some doubts and some irritation that one of them didn't win it
outright.

Is Harry's streak of pride and independence (as Moody noted) the result
of his ambition (wanting to go it alone so as not to share the glory)?
Or (more likely in my mind) are these characteristics personal failings
that may come into conflict for him or cause him problems later?

Snape -- his ambition for the DADA job is really hearsay.  Everyone says
he's out for the job but why hasn't Dumbledore offered it to him if he
truly wants it?  We've seen that Snape has no real trepidation about
asking Dumbledore for what he wants (typically punishment for Harry or
acknowledgment that Lupin could have been helping his old pal Sirius).
I have a hard time believing that he hasn't asked for it if he truly
wants it.  So . . . if he's asked for it, Dumbledore must have reasons
for denying him the job.  Or, maybe it was all just hearsay and Snape
doesn't want (and hasn't asked for) the DADA position.  Why would the
DADA job be more prestigious than Potions Master?

Okay, I'm starting to ramble so I'll shut up now.

Penny




From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep  9 14:59:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:59:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sacred Power in your name
References: <1.5.4.32.20000909121557.00aebd28@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <39BA5055.128836AC@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1221

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> At the risk of pressing one of Penny's buttons, I have to agree that,
> as
> well as being a name in its own right, Harry is a shortened form of
> both
> Harold and Henry, at least in the UK.

Well, I didn't actually say it couldn't be a short-form or a nickname.
I think when Henry is shortened, it is probably most often shortened to
Harry.  I'm still not convinced that it's common for Harold to be
shortened to Harry.  But, I thought I should set the record straight --
I wasn't arguing that Harry isn't or can't be a nickname for both
names.  It is.

My argument is that it must be more often a name in its own right than a
nickname.  My reasoning is that recent name polls in the UK list the
name Harry.  These polls are compiled by the Office of National
Statistics.  It seems to me that the Office of Nat'l Statistics is
simply doing some sort of computerized search of the official birth
records to compile these lists.  They're not likely to be calling
parents and saying, "You've named your son Harold.  Will you be calling
him Harold or Harry or Hal?"  Nah -- they're going by what name is
listed on the birth certificate.  So . . . . one can deduce by logic
that the name Harry is far more often given as the given name than
Harold or Henry.  Neither Harold nor Henry shows up in these same polls.

> My final point is that I agree with Penny: our Harry is just 'Harry'.
> He's not a Harold or a Henry or a Harrison or a Hare Krishna disciple.

That's really my main point after all.  Glad you agree!!!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Sep  9 14:49:56 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 14:49:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbleodre and Snape
In-Reply-To: <8pdasu+tv8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pdimk+mm9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1222

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "snuffles " <msmacgoo at h...> wrote:

> 
> I'm not trying to defend Snape, but I am interested to consider why 
> Dumbeldore does not interviene. I don't want to beleive either that 
> he is bad or loosing it due to age and infermity. (when someone 
> suggested that Dumbeldore might go over to Voldy's side I just 
> wanted  to cry - NNNNOOOOO!) I want him to be really good. but it
is 
> hard to reconcile this need with his behaviour towards Snape.
> 
> SO - what do you think?
	As a sometimes pointy-haired boss, I'll try to answer that one. 
The world is full of people who are extraordinarily good at some
aspect of their jobs but have difficult personalities...every 
organization I've ever been involved with had someone like that in
it. 
Dumble can't intervene too often without undermining Snape, in which 
case Snape would quit. Happy day for Harry, but...
	
  Learning to deal with people like Snape is essential if you're
going to be a leader as Harry seems destined to be. Harry is learning 
that while he can't control Snape's behaviour he can control his 
reaction to it. He doesn't have to let Snape, or Vernon, or Malfoy
push 
his buttons. 





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 14:52:35 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:52:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbleodre and Snape
References: <8pdasu+tv8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a701c01a6d$97a4eee0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1223

Dumbledore is human.  All humans make mistakes, even if they are the greatest/goodest folks in the world.  Don't tell me Gandhi (Sp?) didn't make mistakes.  So a: either Snape's behavior is a mistake, or b:AD's ignoring it has a purpose in Harry and the other G's lives (Snape seems to pick on G's the worst, any ideas theres?).

Now, I seem to think there's more along B than A.

There's still that matter of the socks.  I like my premises that he's stealing them.  It sorta gives him a flaw, which he's got somewhere anyway!

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 14:54:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:54:03 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter Translations Sought 
Message-ID: <00b801c01a6d$cd993060$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1224

Saturday September 9 1:12 AM ET
Harry Potter Translations Sought 

By BURT HERMAN, Associated Press Writer 

BERLIN (AP) - It doesn't take any magic to conjure up the latest book about Harry Potter in a store just about anywhere these days. Fans of the young wizard are clamoring to get their hands on it in countries around the world - even before it's translated. 

Potter-mania has struck from Denmark to Thailand, sending ``Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire'' flying off the shelves. The English version even made it to No. 1 on German online bookstore buecher.de. 

Some German fans got a bit overeager waiting for the translation that hits the market here next month. One fan Web site proposed a translation contest from English of the fourth book in the series, drawing threats of legal action by the Potter books' German publishers, Hamburg-based Carlsen. 

But even the English versions are hot items. In the Dussmann bookstore in central Berlin, the English-language version of ``Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire'' is the only foreign-language book to be showcased in the children's section. 

``I've read the first three books in German already and I'm thinking about reading the new one if my English is good enough,'' said one Potter fan, Susanne Volkmuth, 39, of Mainz, who was perusing the aisles at Dussmann. 

In Denmark, where a Danish translation will be released in the fall, the English version of the book is also moving fast. 

``We have been selling thousands of copies of the English version both to young and old people,'' said Kjeld Bonderup, head of Gad, Denmark's largest chain of booksellers. 

``It's the greatest children's book success in recent years,'' he said, but refused to give an exact sales figure because of company policy. 

At Finland's largest bookstore, Academic Bookstore in Helsinki, managers ordered several hundred copies of the English version but only 100 arrived - all of which sold out immediately. 

The English versions of the fourth ``Harry Potter'' book also sold well in Thailand, helping the translated copy of the first book to make it to No. 1 on the best-seller list within two weeks of its release last month. 

Bloomsbury Publishing in London, publisher of the U.K. editions, did not respond to repeated queries about sales figures for the English-language version in non-English-speaking countries. 

But the German publisher Carlsen said it's sold more than 2 million copies of the German-language Harry Potter books since the first one went on sale in fall 1998 - with a boost coming most recently when the fourth book came out in English. 

Spokeswoman Cornelia Berger said that while on tour with author J.K. Rowling through Germany in March, at least 10 to 20 percent of books Potter fans asked the author to sign were English versions. 

Educators in the western German state of Saarland have even said they would stock the English version in school libraries to help students learn the language. But they won't be able to take the book home: Because of the novel's popularity, readers will only be allowed to read it during library hours. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  9 15:09:06 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:09:06 -0000
Subject: Hedwig (Was: Mrs. Norris: A Character Study
In-Reply-To: <39B8E728.8C1F2EB9@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8pdjqi+kamq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1225

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" wrote:

> But that leads to an interesting  question as well:
> Coould Hedwig find Harry in the cloak?  Owls are even more
> auditory-adapted than cats, since they are specialized to hunt 
> at night.

I expect that Hedwig can find Harry in the Cloak, but we still won't 
know whether she found him by sound or by owl-magic. Remember that 
owls always find the addressee of the letter, even if the sender 
doesn't know the address, even if the addressee is in hiding. Surely 
they do it by owl-magic. And surely they fly via another dimension or 
some other magic trick that makes them impossible to for human 
wizards to follow, or else (as people suggested months ago) MoM would 
just owl a letter to Sirius and follow the owl to find him.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  9 15:20:59 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:20:59 -0000
Subject: Family for Harry (was Re: Dramatic Engine: Fear v. Desire)
In-Reply-To: <8pd70g+gujv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pdkgr+hg7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1226

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "snuffles " <msmacgoo at h...> wrote:

> But is his family dead? Just because his paternal family (who 
> appear in the Mirror)

The description of the people who appear in the Mirror includes green 
eyes like his. The green eyes come from his mother's side, so it is 
implied that the family shown in the Mirror includes people from the 
maternal / Muggle side. I don't think it is certain that the family 
members shown in the Mirror are all dead -- but I also don't think it 
certain that they ever existed as individuals. The Mirror showed 
Ron himself as Quidditch hero and Head Boy, and there is no reason 
to believe that to be a true vision, so Harry's vision of his 
relatives could also have been a false vision.

> what about his maternal family? Where are they? Can it be that 
> James was the only  child of only children and Lily one of two
> siblings of two only children? 

As for James, it seems that wizard folk tend to have small families 
so it is possible that he WAS an only child. However, it is also 
possible that he had a sibling or two and they and the parents 
were all killed by Voldemort. Especially if Voldemort had a 
'crusade' against Potters.

As for Lily, Dumbledore said in Chapter 1 of Book 1 that the 
Dursleys are Harry's only relatives now. That strongly implies that 
Lily and Petunia's parents are dead. I don't have any problem 
believing that Lily and Petunia's parents had only two children, 
wwhich is a pretty frequent number of children per family, but I do 
wonder what happened to Harry and Dudley's grandparents. Did Petunia 
murder her own parents out of sibling rivalry? 




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 15:53:31 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:53:31 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sacred Power in your name
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000909155331.00842890@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1227

At 09:59 09/09/2000 -0500, Penny wrote:

>My argument is that it must be more often a name in its own right than a
>nickname.  My reasoning is that recent name polls in the UK list the
>name Harry.  

Yes, that's exactly as I see it.  

Your point, I realised, does not relate to what is shortened to what, but
what is common.  Harold has not been a common baby name in the UK for
decades, but if it were, it would get shortened to Harry.  Without checking,
I'm sure someone else here has mentioned the fact that Harold is an old
man's name (at least, people have given examples of octagenarians called
Harry). I wouldn't expect many boys of 10, 11, 12 to be called Harold.
Henry, on the other hand, is rather an upper middle-class name and may well
be the name on the birth certificate of some young Harrys (such as Prince
Harry).  Harry is a current, popular name just as it is, and further
evidence for this is the fact there has been a trend for nicknames to take
on 'given name' status in recent years, with other examples such as Charlie,
Jamie and Billy being common. 

My point, in the last post, was really to look at the derivation of the name
Harry, regardless of the previous debate. We do tend to go in circles on
this one!

Neil 


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From farrago at msn.com  Sat Sep  9 16:16:57 2000
From: farrago at msn.com (MSN)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:16:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction
References: <8paout+dfdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c01a79$60c3e5f0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>

No: HPFGUIDX 1228

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying Ford Anglia" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 08:18
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and the 'rules' of fiction


[...]
...Hey! We're back to Finnegan's Wake again.  There is a limit, I
guess.
[...]

If you're going to refer to that, please refer to it properly - it's
"Finnegans Wake".  Note, there's no apostrophe.






From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep  9 16:44:27 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:44:27 -0500
Subject: Finnegans Wake & OT responses in general
References: <8paout+dfdu@eGroups.com> <00a201c01a79$60c3e5f0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>
Message-ID: <39BA68EB.D7307405@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1229

Hi --

MSN wrote:

> [...] ...Hey! We're back to Finnegan's Wake again.  There is a limit,
> I
> guess. [...]
>
> If you're going to refer to that, please refer to it properly - it's
> "Finnegans Wake".  Note, there's no apostrophe.

I assume you're a James Joyce fan MSN?

Perhaps I've misinterpreted your tone, but it seems a bit rude to me.
And completely pointless.  Is that correction *really* necessary given
that this is a HP listserve?  I think correcting things such as this
ought to probably be limited to HP corrections.  Or, if you were sending
a substantive post, and you wanted to say "BTW Neil -- it's actually
Finnegans Wake (no apostrope)" -- that would have been fine.

I do think we should all strive to keep completely off-topic (OT) posts
*and* OT responses to a minimum.

Thanks --

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 17:59:40 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:59:40 -0000
Subject: Wizard porn (not quite OT but very random and tasteless)
Message-ID: <8pdtqc+c5so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1230

The thought hit me out of the blue the other day that if wizards have 
porn magazines, they are probably better than the Muggle version, if 
only for the fact that the pictures move.  As an added plus, with the 
aid of an Engorgement Charm, theoretically anyone could become 
qualified to be a porn star.  Also, the differences in daily wizard 
and Muggle life would breathe some life in to the cliches that 
earmark porn and add an interesting flavor. ("Oh, Albus, what a big 
wand you have!"  "Hey, honey, do you want to see my Golden Snitch?")

Steve, with apolgies for the crudity and a promise never to refer to 
this subject again.




From estesrandy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 18:25:27 2000
From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Arthur Weasley)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:25:27 -0000
Subject: Snape's Predicament
Message-ID: <8pdvan+tchp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1231

I thought I posted this a week ago, but somehow it never made it.

Anyway, I was reading book one again and thought about Professor 
Snape.  Quirrell ( who has Voldemort in back of his head) tells Harry 
that Snape was preventing him from finding the Sorcerer's Stone and 
knocking Harry off the broomstick in the Quidditch match.  Since 
Voldemort hears this conversation between Quirrell and Harry, he must 
know that Snape is no longer a loyal Death Eater.  How on earth is 
Snape supposed to be an undercover spy in Voldemort's camp if 
Voldemort already knows about this?  Snape was not present for this 
conversation in book one and may not know anything about it.  Snape 
appears to be in one heck of a predicament.

My other thought on the matter is that Snape has polyjuice potion in 
his office, so he must be able to become other people quite easily if 
he needs to.  Perhaps this is part of his prior service to Dumbledore.

P.S. I think Ludo Bagman will turn out to be a bad guy in the end.




From estesrandy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 18:46:32 2000
From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Arthur Weasley)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:46:32 -0000
Subject: Wizard Ethics
Message-ID: <8pe0i8+prum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1232

The previous discussion of wizard charms and spells to change things 
for somewhat dubious purposes (ie. engorgement charm) makes me wonder 
about the ethics classes needed to prevent all kinds of abuses in the 
Wizard world.  

If the date doesn't turn out so well, they might just use the old 
memory loss charm to remove all the bad thoughts.  One could easily 
cover up one's actions with this method.  Time turners could make it 
hard to convict people of crimes because they can be at two places at 
the same time.  Why not make everyone believe you are wealthier than 
you are with just the wave of the old wand?  For that matter, change 
your appearance with polyjuice potion and have the time of your life 
with the beautiful people while pretending you are one of them.  The 
possibilities are endless.  There must be some strict rules of 
conduct needed to keep everyone on the up and up.  We're not even 
talking about murder and heavy crimes; just the everyday misdemeanors 
by all those young wizards fresh out of school!






From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Sep  9 18:52:47 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:52:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ambition
Message-ID: <200009091929.e89JTHv29526@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1233

I am finding this ambition thread fascinating.  Just some thoughts:


>I think if Percy is
>forced to make difficult choices, he will, in the end, choose his
>family.  I also think that Percy will struggle with the decision but
>choose to abandon upward mobility in Fudge's MoM in favor of family
>loyalty.

I agree with you here.  Hermione sees this, even if Ron doesn't.  I think the 
thing that makes me absolutely sure of Percy is his reaction when Harry pulls 
Ron out of the water at the Second Task--he comes running over, white-faced 
and worried.  (Surely a foolish looking reaction for a Ministry official--but 
Percy doesn't care, as he is too worried about his brother.)  Also, it has 
been stated that Hermione gets along better with Percy than Ron and Harry do, 
so it makes sense that she would understand this about him more than they 
would.

Speaking of Hermione, I think part of the reason she understands this about 
Percy is that she has it too.  We have been talking about Ron, Harry, Snape, 
Percy in relation to ambition, but let's not forget who is the top of her 
class and even resorted to time travel to take all those classes!  Although 
her ambitions take a different form, it is pretty clear that Hermione is just 
as ambitious in her own way.  (Her tenacity involving S.P.E.W. comes 
immediately to mind.)  I think the difference is, Hermione has a more 
pronounced streak of compassion than the others we have discussed, which maybe 
obscures her ambitions a little.  But they're there.


Kathy




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 19:45:55 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:45:55 -0400
Subject: Maleficent....(OT, but don't want people to get the wrong idea...) and Voldemorts wives
Message-ID: <004a01c01a96$926b5c60$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1234

http://members.xoom.com/Izenberg/EEmpress.htm
That pic is from the movie Snow White, not the Sleeping Beauty series.  

This is a photo of Malificent:  http://www.vegalleries.com/dis-misc/etchmalif.gif

and this is the queen:  
http://www.vegalleries.com/dis-misc/etchqueen.gif

Either, however, would be a great wife for Voldemort.  I wonder, if in the case of the person who mentioned Snape as Voldemort's love child, who would have been the mother?  The LeStranges?  Anyone have ideas of this?  If Voldemort was told that a child born a certain day would destroy him/etc... wouldn't he too have been trying to get women pregnant?  Or was Tom Riddle not able to do this?  

(Perhaps he had to resort to the magazines previously mentioned?)

Tom sounds like in CoS he was a rather handsome kid.  Did the evilness eat away at his good looks?  (Sounds actually like Harry in some ways, but not going there!  He had sex with Lily and then chased the family due to the prophecy?  Sounds like a horrible fanfic~)

Just sounds ramblings.  I am trying to cut down my postings (Don't want to be an uberposter) and not fill everyone's mailbox, with a groan, when they see my name!

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  9 20:09:24 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:09:24 -0000
Subject: Wizard Ethics
In-Reply-To: <8pe0i8+prum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pe5dk+j5vi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1235

I assume that the Ministry of Magic has a probably very large section 
devoted to regulating the use of magic among wizards (i.e. probably 
there are laws governing the practice of magic beyond those designed 
to keep wizards from discovery by Muggles).  If Fudge is an 
indication of the way the Ministry is run, you have to wonder how 
effective they are at totally stamping out magical abuse, though.  
But they probably do some good, and as in the Muggle world, it is 
impossible to completely stop people from breaking the law anyway.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep  9 20:27:07 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:27:07 -0700
Subject: Voldemort's Looks (was  Maleficent....and Voldemorts wives)
In-Reply-To: <004a01c01a96$926b5c60$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEJHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1236

I think somewhere in Chamber of Secrets, Tom Riddle says that after leaving
Hogwarts, he went away and went through a whole bunch of magical
transformations to gain power and immortality.  They apparently left his
face resembling a snake's, although he still seems to have a humanoid-type
body.  He said that no one would ever have recognized him as the former Tom
Riddle.


-----Original Message-----
From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 12:46 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Maleficent....(OT, but don't want people to get
the wrong idea...) and Voldemorts wives


Tom sounds like in CoS he was a rather handsome kid.  Did the evilness eat
away at his good looks?  (Sounds actually like Harry in some ways, but not
going there!  He had sex with Lily and then chased the family due to the
prophecy?  Sounds like a horrible fanfic~)

Dee





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  9 21:27:37 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:27:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard porn (not quite OT but very random and tasteless)
Message-ID: <v02140bf5b5e05b9eabd5@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1237

>
>The thought hit me out of the blue the other day that if wizards have
>porn magazines, they are probably better than the Muggle version, if
>only for the fact that the pictures move.  As an added plus, with the
>aid of an Engorgement Charm, theoretically anyone could become
>qualified to be a porn star.  Also, the differences in daily wizard
>and Muggle life would breathe some life in to the cliches that
>earmark porn and add an interesting flavor. ("Oh, Albus, what a big
>wand you have!"  "Hey, honey, do you want to see my Golden Snitch?")
>
>Steve, with apolgies for the crudity and a promise never to refer to
>this subject again.
>
We've covered this quite a bit over at the PoU list.  Penny and Carole
deserve credit for coming up with a great series of broomstick-rides-as-sex
metaphors.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep  9 20:35:28 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:35:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Predicament
In-Reply-To: <8pdvan+tchp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEJICBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1238

One thing we can be sure of is to expect the unexpected.  Whatever Snape is
doing for Dumbledore, it's probably NOT what we imagine.  However, using
Polyjuice Potion to pose as someone else sounds reasonable.  Whatever Snape
is doing, he was back at Hogwarts immediately afterwards -- he left the
infirmary to do whatever it was, and he was present at the Farewell Dinner
the next week.  I wonder if we'll have to wait for another 3 books to find
out...


-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Weasley [mailto:estesrandy at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 11:25 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Predicament

I thought I posted this a week ago, but somehow it never made it.

Anyway, I was reading book one again and thought about Professor
Snape.  Quirrell ( who has Voldemort in back of his head) tells Harry
that Snape was preventing him from finding the Sorcerer's Stone and
knocking Harry off the broomstick in the Quidditch match.  Since
Voldemort hears this conversation between Quirrell and Harry, he must
know that Snape is no longer a loyal Death Eater.  How on earth is
Snape supposed to be an undercover spy in Voldemort's camp if
Voldemort already knows about this?  Snape was not present for this
conversation in book one and may not know anything about it.  Snape
appears to be in one heck of a predicament.

My other thought on the matter is that Snape has polyjuice potion in
his office, so he must be able to become other people quite easily if
he needs to.  Perhaps this is part of his prior service to Dumbledore.

P.S. I think Ludo Bagman will turn out to be a bad guy in the end.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep  9 21:33:45 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:33:45 -0500
Subject: More tidbits from Borders
Message-ID: <v02140bf8b5e05ceffaf8@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1239


At my Borders, you can now pre-order the Harry Potter 2001 Calendars.
There are two, a wall calendar and a page-a-day calendar.  I'm planning to
get both.  :-)

I also learned that there will be some merchandise exclusive to Borders,
mugs and the like.

No, this it not an ad.  Just wanted y'all to know abut the calendars!  :-)
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Could Have Had a V-8"  Summers

        I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass.
        And I'm all out of bubble gum.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sat Sep  9 20:47:29 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:47:29 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Predicament
Message-ID: <f3.28d9f65.26ebfbe1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1240

Is Voldemort aware that Crouch Jr. was captured and killed (well, soul-less)? Perhaps Snape is returning to Voldemort pretending to be Barty Crouch. Knowing that Voldie now considers Barty to be the most faithful of his death eaters, he would probably trust him with some of the top-secret information he wouldn't entrust to any of the others.

Ellie, who intends on writing a little post-GoF fanfic

In a message dated Sat, 9 Sep 2000  4:34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com> writes:

<< One thing we can be sure of is to expect the unexpected.  Whatever Snape is
doing for Dumbledore, it's probably NOT what we imagine.  However, using
Polyjuice Potion to pose as someone else sounds reasonable.  Whatever Snape
is doing, he was back at Hogwarts immediately afterwards -- he left the
infirmary to do whatever it was, and he was present at the Farewell Dinner
the next week.  I wonder if we'll have to wait for another 3 books to find
out...


-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Weasley [mailto:estesrandy at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 11:25 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Predicament

I thought I posted this a week ago, but somehow it never made it.

Anyway, I was reading book one again and thought about Professor
Snape.  Quirrell ( who has Voldemort in back of his head) tells Harry
that Snape was preventing him from finding the Sorcerer's Stone and
knocking Harry off the broomstick in the Quidditch match.  Since
Voldemort hears this conversation between Quirrell and Harry, he must
know that Snape is no longer a loyal Death Eater.  How on earth is
Snape supposed to be an undercover spy in Voldemort's camp if
Voldemort already knows about this?  Snape was not present for this
conversation in book one and may not know anything about it.  Snape
appears to be in one heck of a predicament.

My other thought on the matter is that Snape has polyjuice potion in
his office, so he must be able to become other people quite easily if
he needs to.  Perhaps this is part of his prior service to Dumbledore.

P.S. I think Ludo Bagman will turn out to be a bad guy in the end.
 >>





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  9 20:56:39 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:56:39 -0000
Subject: Voldemorts wives
In-Reply-To: <004a01c01a96$926b5c60$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pe867+1dui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1241

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
>
> Tom sounds like in CoS he was a rather handsome kid.  Did the 
> evilness eat away at his good looks? 

I imagine that Tom Riddle remained quite a handsome man until he did 
whichever of his immortality spells turned him into a snake 'morph. 
(Snake anthromorph: anthropomorphic snake: man who is unnaturally 
thin, covered with scales, completely hairless, no nose, no lids to 
his eyes with slit-shaped pupils: those are snake traits).

> If Voldemort was told that a child born a certain day would destroy
> him/etc... 

I imagine the prophecy was not that the child born under a certain 
conjunction would destroy him, but rather that it would have powerful 
magic to change history for good or ill. That would be enough for V 
to want such a child on his side.

> wouldn't he too have been trying to get women pregnant? Or was Tom 
> Riddle not able to do this?  

I figure that Tom Riddle had relatively normal human fertility, 
but V the snake 'morph couldn't reproduce with a human, at least 
because of being a different species, and possibly because fertility 
and maybe even sex were lost as a cost of the spell. Any child 
fathered by TR/V would be at least a generation older than Harry...

> I wonder, if in the case of the person who mentioned Snape as 
> Voldemort's love child, who would have been the mother?

I shouldn't have used the phrase 'love child', as I (possibly unlike 
the person I swiped the phrase from) didn't mean that TR/V ever loved 
anyone or even had affairs for simple pleasure. I was suggesting that 
he wanted a son as heir or loyal servant or possibly an ingredient in 
a spell, therefore ordered some of his female followers to provide 
him with one. The female followers in question would have been of the 
generation of Harry's GRANDPARENTS or great-grandparents, and the 
child would have been in the generation of Harry's parents or even 
older. While I ramble on the keyboard, it occurs to me: we were told 
that Dumbledore had at least one brother, could the mother of TR/V's 
hypothetical child be Dumbledore's youngest sister, either turned 
evil or captured and put under Imperius Curse? Then, if the child
were Snape, Snape would be Dumbledore's nephew, a literal example of 
nepotism.

Oh, when I said he might want a son as an ingredient in a spell, that 
doesn't necessarily mean that the spell requires that the son be 
killed or at least lose his right hand, it might only require that 
a father and his son say the magic words in unison. But how it feel 
for a young teen-ager to learn that his unloving parents were 
actually plan to kill him on his 21st birthday? That's that kind of 
thing that might make a person bitter. 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  9 21:13:21 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:13:21 -0000
Subject: Wizard porn (not quite OT but very random and tasteless)
In-Reply-To: <v02140bf5b5e05b9eabd5@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8pe95h+kfr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1242

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:

> We've covered this quite a bit over at the PoU list.  Penny and 
> Carole deserve credit for coming up with a great series of 
> broomstick-rides-as-sex metaphors.

Besides all the awful things that Aberforth's Goat has said since we 
came to e-groups, people with Web browsers can access the wonderful 
searchable archive someone made for us at:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/HPforGrownups-Archives
and search for the string 'Ladies and Broomsticks' and get good leads 
to the previous group of messages on the subject of, un, Sirius's 
broomstick.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 21:24:24 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:24:24 -0400
Subject: Looks like a snake, acts like a "ahem" snake
References: <8pe95h+kfr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c01aa4$541820c0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1243

How do  we know that Voldie tho, is sterile?  Couldn't his "ahem" snake-like qualities extend as well to the latter regions of his anatomy?  Isn't going to go there due to the pg-13, but those who understand know who they are.

Also, it isn't completely impossible that a man as old as Voldie--64 have a child Snape's or even Harry's age.  I have seen several men that despite outward appearances, are very virile at that age.  We also cannot discount scientific methods, because that would have been something available (like sperm banks) around Harry's birthday.

Or am I getting a bit too caught up this subject, and need to just drop it?

:O

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drmm at Juno.com  Sat Sep  9 23:03:42 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:03:42 -0500
Subject: Snape's Predicament
Message-ID: <20000909.180344.-973139.0.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1244

From: "Arthur Weasley" <estesrandy at yahoo.com>

>Anyway, I was reading book one again and thought about Professor 
>Snape.  Quirrell ( who has Voldemort in back of his head) tells Harry 
>that Snape was preventing him from finding the Sorcerer's Stone and 
>knocking Harry off the broomstick in the Quidditch match.  Since 
>Voldemort hears this conversation between Quirrell and Harry, he must 
>know that Snape is no longer a loyal Death Eater.  How on earth is 
>Snape supposed to be an undercover spy in Voldemort's camp if 
>Voldemort already knows about this?  Snape was not present for this 
>conversation in book one and may not know anything about it.  Snape 
>appears to be in one heck of a predicament.

I've thought about this one too :)  In the first place, I'm quite sure
that Dumbledore would have told Snape about it, so Snape would have had
time to come up with an explination, but even so, I'm sure Snape would be
able to come up with this explaination ;)

My theory is this: Snape can explain away his actions by saying he was
doing it to look good in front of Dumbledore.  He wanted Dumbedore to
trust him even more than he did already.  He obviously knew Quirrel was
evil but wasn't there on the pivetol night when Quirrel went into the
tunnel.  He also did his best to ensure that Harry didn't go into the
tunnel after Quirrel to stop him.  And to explain for his attempts to
save Harry he could say it was to repay his debt to James.

I can see Voldemort believing this.  What little we've seen of him has
implied to me that Voldemort has a bit of an ego.  I don't think
Voldemort could believe someone would consciously betray him *while* he
was at his full strength.  I suspect Voldemort will punish Snape (quite
painfully) as he did some of the other "fallen" Death Eaters and then let
him back in.  And I also think Lucius Malfoy would support Snape, which
could partially explain why Snape shows such blatant favoritism for
Draco.  I'm convinced both he and Dumbledore were planning on the
possibilty that Voldemort would return one day.

Now, to write my long dissertation on Snape I've been planning on writing
due to the interesting Snape conversations going on lately :)

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Jungle de Ikou (very bizzare)

________________________________________________________________
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From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 23:51:47 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 23:51:47 -0000
Subject: Boggart
In-Reply-To: <39B6A32D.15E00E90@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8peiej+njm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1245

My boggart would be CHRISTINA AGUILERA singing "What a Girl Wants"!
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!  <runs away screaming>
~Kaitlin

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I'll give the same answer I gave when Sister Mary brought up this 
topic
> on HogwartsAdultSchool --
> 
> The boggart question is easy for me: it would turn into a palmetto 
bug,
> which is a large (2-3 inches) flying cockroach common to the Gulf 
States
> in southeastern U.S.  They honestly have a wing span that would 
remind
> you of a small bird, and they are the foulest creatures on this 
earth as
> far as I'm concerned.  They are *huge* and very erratic &
> unpredictable.  My husband swears that my "I've just seen a roach"
> scream is very similar to someone's "I'm about to be murdered" 
scream.
> It's a lifelong fear, and interestingly, my sister had the same
> immediate response when I posed the "what would a boggart turn into 
if
> it saw you" question to her.
> 
> I agree with Margaret -- anyone who thought SS wasn't sophisticated
> didn't read very closely.  The Mirror of Erised question is tougher 
(and
> perhaps more personal to many).  I'll give it some thought.
> 
> Penny




From brooksar at indy.net  Sun Sep 10 00:08:47 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:08:47 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore good or bad
References: <968527350.10012@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39BAD10F.2AA07E9E@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1246

>  The quote that Brooks dug out indicates that JKR read LOTR
> when she was 14, but it obviously didn't change her life.

No that wasn't me.....

It was Steve Bates in this message

http://www.egroups.com/message/HPforGrownups/1190

-Brooks



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 02:21:21 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 02:21:21 -0000
Subject: Disney Villains
Message-ID: <8per71+kldp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1247

Someone mentioned Malecifent (sp?) in an earliar post though not in 
this context.  I know most of you don't really like Disney films, or 
at least seemed opposed to their taking on HP, but I did grow up on 
Disney and I can't help but have a certain affinity for it.  

In saying that the animated films don't really give an accurate 
potrayal of evil one would IMO be correct.  This is to say that some 
of my favourite Disney Characters are the "Bad Guys".  Voldemort OTOH 
I can't see as being anyone's favourite.  Another thing about 
Disney's stock of villains is that the females have always been more 
demensional and sometimes meanacing than the males.

I know that Rita Skeeter was supposed to be BAD and she certainly was 
but I would like to see an evil female in later books.

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 02:33:19 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 02:33:19 -0000
Subject: Unregistered Animagi
Message-ID: <8pertf+hu1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1248

This came up in my head when I mentioned Rita Skeeter in my last post.
I'm *sure* that we've had this topic before but I can't remember it.

As far as Animagi go we know that Minerva Mcgon. is one (registered) 
and there was maybe four other registered ones...I think.  Ok, now 
lets count the unregistered ones....1)James Potter 2)Sirius Black 3)
Peter Pettigrew 4)Rita Skeeter...Now if a bunch of "kids" can do it, 
and an annoying journalist can do it, and NONE of them bother to 
register then who's to say that half of the Wizarding pop. aren't 
unreg. Animagi????

Some have suggested that Crookshanks is one, (I COULD believe this) 
and that Hedwig is one (honestly!) but in all likelihood couldn't we 
say that Dumbledore might be one...or even Snape....

It makes me wonder why M.M. bothered to register at all.

Scott




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep 10 04:54:13 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 23:54:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Disney Villains
Message-ID: <v02140bfcb5e0c45445d5@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1249

>
>Someone mentioned Malecifent (sp?) in an earliar post though not in
>this context.  I know most of you don't really like Disney films, or
>at least seemed opposed to their taking on HP, but I did grow up on
>Disney and I can't help but have a certain affinity for it.
>
I *love* Disney films.  My favorite is Hunchback, though I also thought
Tarzan was fantastic.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From kippesp at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 05:23:56 2000
From: kippesp at yahoo.com (Paul Kippes)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:23:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Predicament/Task
Message-ID: <20000910052356.12385.qmail@web2104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1250

--- Arthur Weasley [mailto:estesrandy at yahoo.com]
> My other thought on the matter is that Snape has
> polyjuice potion in his office, so he must be able
> to become other people quite easily if he needs to.

--- Ellimist15 at aol.com:
> Perhaps Snape is returning to Voldemort pretending
> to be Barty Crouch.

IMO, secretly becoming another person's twin using a
Polyjuice potion seems rather complex.  Some how the
subject's tissue/hair/cells need(s) to be secretly
acquired and the subject needs to be out of the way,
so to speak.  Of course acquiring samples of Mr. B.
Crouch and replacing him would be simple enough.

Also, by Dumbledore's communicating to Snape his task
without any private conversation between them that
evening seems to me that Snape's task could have been
done at any time before that evening (but possibly
requiring some physical or mental preparation).  Of
course, this task probably wouldn't have had any
meaning until V. "rebirth."

Like Danemead said.  We probably must wait until a
future book.  (Who's making the JKR interview question
list?)

<><><><><><><>  Topic change!  <><><><><><><>

I checked the front page of a bookstore's GoF this
evening to see which printing Scholastic is up to--7th
printing!  But I didn't check to see about some of the
typos.  Darn!




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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From ashley1591284 at cs.com  Sun Sep 10 05:35:33 2000
From: ashley1591284 at cs.com (ashley1591284 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:35:33 EDT
Subject: Snape's Predicament
Message-ID: <a2.94ca9e5.26ec77a5@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1251

In a message dated 9/9/00 3:22:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
HPforGrownups at egroups.com writes:

<< Anyway, I was reading book one again and thought about Professor 
 Snape.  Quirrell ( who has Voldemort in back of his head) tells Harry 
 that Snape was preventing him from finding the Sorcerer's Stone and 
 knocking Harry off the broomstick in the Quidditch match.  Since 
 Voldemort hears this conversation between Quirrell and Harry, he must 
 know that Snape is no longer a loyal Death Eater. >>

But wouldn't he have known that Snape was no longer a loyal Death Eater 
before that?  I mean, he must've found out that Snape had redeemed himself 
and was now working for Dumbledore early on.  And he obviously knew that 
Snape was trying to prevent Quirrel from retrieving the sorcerer's stone.  I 
don't see how Snape could feign ongoing loyalty to Voldemort after all that.  
So I think it's pretty unlikely that Dumbledore sent him back to Voldemort 
and the Death Eaters, lest that be a suicide mission.  But then again, JKR is 
absolutely wonderful at working out plot twists and details, so I'm confident 
that she could make it work.  It'll be interesting to see how it all plays 
out.



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 05:57:11 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 06:57:11 +0100
Subject: McGonagall (was unreg. animagi) /2x OT apologies
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000910055711.0071e484@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1252

At 02:33 09/10/2000 -0000, Scott wrote:

"As far as Animagi go we know that Minerva Mcgon. is one (registered) 
and there was maybe four other registered ones...I think."  


***
I think it was said, somewhere, that there are seven registered Animagi.
Hermione had looked it up.  

You made a good point about the number of unregistered Animagi roaming
about.  Maybe the unregistered ones aren't doing anything illegal as such,
but the few who are registered have, or had, a specific purpose.  Minerva
McGonagall teaches Transiguration to children, for example, which may be
enough to require her registration, but she may have another, less public,
role. Perhaps she also works for the Ministry of Magic in some capacity?  

When Dumbledore arrives in Privet Drive to deliver baby Harry to the
Dursleys he finds McGonagall, as a cat, sitting outside their house.  Yet,
when he reveals that he is there to deliver Harry Potter to No. 4, she seems
outraged that he would be leaving him with the Dursleys and says: "I've been
watching them all day".  Why was she watching the Dursleys' house if she had
no inkling that they were Harry's relatives?  If she planned to intercept
Dumbledore to find out if the Potters were dead, she must have known that he
was going to be at Privet Drive. An alternative conclusion is that she was
watching the Dursleys' house for another reason. Someone, ages ago,
suggested that the Dursleys House might be under a Fidelius charm and that
MM might be the Secret Keeper.  

I think I've mentioned before that it seemed odd that McGonagall was
surprised when Dumbledore recognised her Animagus, sitting on the wall.
Since she is his deputy at Hogwarts - regularly turning into a cat in front
of her students - *and* a registered Animagus, it was surely not that
strange for Dumbledore to have recognised her as a tabby cat.  Considering
their roles, Dumbledore and McGonagall don't seem to communicate too well,
do they?  

Neil

_______________________

PS - a couple of quick apologies...

1. I mistakenly assigned a quote posted by Steve Bates to Brooks Rowlett -
apologies to both.

2. I put an apostrophe in "Finnegans Wake" and MSN got upset. Aaaaargh!  It
did cross my mind that the title didn't have an apostrophe (in fact, I knew
it once, but I'd obviously forgotten). I didn't mind being corrected, but it
was a bit much to be corrected so bluntly by someone who, to my knowledge,
has never posted anything on Harry Potter.  Anyway, consider me shamed. 

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Sep 10 05:30:37 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:30:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall
Message-ID: <200009100612.e8A6Cgv14131@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1253

>When Dumbledore arrives in Privet Drive to deliver baby Harry to the
>Dursleys he finds McGonagall, as a cat, sitting outside their house.  Yet,
>when he reveals that he is there to deliver Harry Potter to No. 4, she seems
>outraged that he would be leaving him with the Dursleys and says: "I've been
>watching them all day".  Why was she watching the Dursleys' house if she had
>no inkling that they were Harry's relatives?  If she planned to intercept
>Dumbledore to find out if the Potters were dead, she must have known that he
>was going to be at Privet Drive.

MM herself says that Hagrid told her Dumbledore would be coming to the 
Dursley's house.  I assumed that was why she was watching them, even if she 
didn't know they were Harry's relatives.

Kathy




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 06:40:17 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:40:17 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000910064017.0096e7c4@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1254

At 01:30 09/10/2000 -0400, Kathy wrote:

"MM herself says that Hagrid told her Dumbledore 
would be coming to the Dursley's house.  I 
assumed that was why she was watching them, 
even if she didn't know they were Harry's 
relatives".

Point taken, although she didn't say it, she confirmed Dumbledore's
assumption:  When he says "I suppose it was [Hagrid] who told you I'd be
here, by the way?" McGonagall says "Yes" and then changes the subject.
Could she have been covering up her real reason for being there?

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep  9 11:42:04 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:42:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Norris: A Character Study
References: <8p9vi3+2iun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c01b10$94105960$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1255



> Cats are designed to specialize in hearing: a huge amount of their
> brain is auditory cortex, and they have those dish-antenna ears
> that swivel to focus the sound. They have a better sense of smell
> than humans. And they have lousy eyesight. Mrs. Norris probably
> 'notices' Harry by the sound of his breathing and heartbeat and the
> smell of his nervousness, and stares 'at' him in some confusion
> trying to see the Big Blob that is supposed to accompany that sound
> and that smell.

Actually, cats' eyesight's quite good.  They've got huge eyes relative to
their face, and there's been studies showing that they use their vision a
fair bit.  They seem to see things pretty much as we do, except they've got
far better night vision and peripheral vision, and aren't so good on colour
vision.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep  9 12:00:58 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:00:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: echoes of LOTR 
References: <8pc658+g2pb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004601c01b10$95600ae0$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1256


> yes, I immediately thought of Gollum when Dumbledore told
> Harry that it wasn't necessarily a mistake for him to have
> spared Peter Pettigrew -- that saving a life created a bond
> between those two wizards...
>
> It reminded me of Frodo saying that Gollum deserved to die and
> Gandalf saying that many deserved to live who had died - could Frodo
> give them life? and of course, it was Gollum who saved Frodo at the
> end....

Exactly, the similarity is too obvious for JKR to have done that
accidentally.  Also the Wormtongue/Wormtail similarities - hadn't occurred
to me before, but they are obvious (although Saruman is no Voldemort - more
of a Lucius Malfoy figure).

> I was thinking this morning about Boromir's betrayal, and wondering
> if in fact Ron will betray Harry

He might be tempted.  He might even become estranged from Harry.  But when
it comes right down to it, I don't think he would make a conscious decision
to go over to Voldemort.  It's just not in character.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep  9 12:07:45 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:07:45 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Really socks? 
References: <8pb90j+ma4b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004701c01b10$96a694a0$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1257


----- Original Message -----
From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:52 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Really socks? (was Snape//COBOL)


> I assume Dumbledore really saw socks in the Mirror of Erised.
> However...
> Dumbledore's condition could be similar to that of the
> wizards of Earthsea and Discworld, ie.  his ability to fantasize  has
> been suppressed or at least distorted.
> So, much as  Dumbledore would like to get his hands on something warm
> and fuzzy,he, being a mature and magically powerful wizard, just
> can't seem to get any, er,  socks...;).
> JKR is not just winking at us over Harry's shoulder here, I
> notice that people keep twitting Arthur Weasley about the size
> of his family, that most pure bloods seem to have one child at most,
> and that the really powerful wizards  seem to be single, with the
> exception of Crouch Sr., whose family life was a disaster.

No mention of Draco having any siblings.  Harry has none, but he may have
done if his parents had lived long enough.  Also, have you noticed that the
Hogwarts Professors all appear to be single?  At Christmas in PoA, we have
Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall and various others all at the dinner table.
Now granted, some staff need to be there over Christmas to look after the
kids who are staying, but given the handful of pupils there on that
occasion, I find it hard to believe that more than one or two staff would
have been required, and certainly not the Headmaster and Deputy Head.  So...
why aren't they spending the day with their families?  The obvious answer
is, there are none.  Fudge doesn't appear to have any either (no wife or
kids at the Quidditch World Cup).

Jinx





From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep  9 12:28:02 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:28:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good (Far too long)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000909060212.013b6d78@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004801c01b10$97ed1e60$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1258



>      **
>      SUSAN SAID (Re. Lord of the Rings - why do people keep mentioning
it?):
>      "Have you read LOTR, Neil? If you have, you'll know that these
> analogies        just jump out at you.......There are dozens of
> similarities....."
>      **
>
> No, I haven't read "Lord of the Rings".  Exactly like Penny, I've read
"The
> Hobbit" and I have a bookmark stuck about a third of the way through my
copy
> of LOTR, left there when I was about 20. Just shoot me!
>
> It just struck me that there had been a series of comments made about
> similarities between LOTR and the Harry Potter books [quite interesting,
but
> not evidence of anything], and suddenly this seminal work was being used
to
> support the supposition that JKR was bound to a similar balance of Good
> against Evil.  The quote that Brooks dug out indicates that JKR read LOTR
> when she was 14, but it obviously didn't change her life.

It need not have changed her life.  The HP books are funnier and better
written for a start.  But there are similarities in characterisation and
plot, and I don't think its' a coincidence.  Even if JKR only read it once
and didn't fall in love, it's not impossible that certain plot devices were
retained by her subconscious and later resurfaced while she was writing
HP...


> I don't want to be labelled as 'Neil - that fool who thinks Dumbledore is
> evil'.  My original intention was to try to explain why Dumbledore
overlooks
> Snape's unpleasant behaviour, by suggesting that this would not present
such
> a dilemma if Dumbledore were not automatically assumed to be the force for
> good.
> Dumbledore is flawed, he is fallible and there may be some darker secrets
> within him.  I threw up the idea that he might turn out to be the 'baddie'
> in a startling denouement, but, deep down,  I don't really think he is
evil.
> I agree that he probably is a force for good, but I remain suspicious of
his
> motives and I don't trust him.

Of course Dumbledore's not perfect.  He merely appears so because it is
Harry telling the story, and when you are Harry's age, adults appear very
archetypal in nature.  Thus he sees Dumbledore as the ultimate benevolent
father deity who can do anything and is perfect.  As he matures, this
changes as the archetypal projection gets withdrawn and he becomes aware of
Dumbledore's fallibility.  We will follow the same process to a certain
extent as we read the books.  However, because we are older and more
cynical, we're also aware of the adult characters' flaws and ambiguities.
We don't revere them to the extent Harry does and we're more aware of their
humanity.  However, this does not make Dumbledore a secret undercover
servant of Voldemort.  To distrust someone merely because he does not live
up to godlike standards is the mark of an immature mind.

> In previous posts, I've also mentioned Dumbledore's mental state and
> decline, as I think some of his later behaviour may fall outside his
> currently accepted persona.
>
> There are three more books in this series and the chances are that none of
> us will be able to predict what JKR has in store for Albus Dumbledore.
> Personally, I see the overriding story arc turning into a power struggle,
> rather than one of merely Good vs Evil.  You can string me up later, when
> I'm proved wrong <g>.

I personally think that Dumbledore will remain as he is until the last.
However, that will come sooner than expected.  My theory is that AD will
snuff it of old age at a really inopportune moment and leave HP to cope with
Voldy without him.  Followed by Snape taking over as Hogwarts Head.  : )

> Uh? Well, Penny has already said it, but I'll add that I am not on an
> anti-fantasy crusade either.  I think I said the genre seems quite rigid
to
> me, and I suppose I should have specified that I mean the LOTR-type stuff.
> I enjoy fantasy literature and I can thank JK Rowling for having inspired
my
> research in this domain and opened up new possibilities for my already
> groaning bookshelves.
>
> I may even attempt LOTR again. one day.

Some fantasy is really good.  Some of it sticks with the same
Elves/Men/Orcs/Dwarves mould with virtually interchangeable characters from
book to book and never really evolves beyond swords and sorcery LOTR fanfic.
It's like action flicks with magic involved.  You have to be careful with
these things.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 10 10:01:41 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:01:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Mystery of Harry Potter; Good vs. Evil
References: <8p76e6+4u3r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004901c01b10$996602c0$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1259


> Killing off a major character in GoF was a major turning point; you
> just do not do that in 99% of children's literature.  Interesting
> that Cedric's death seems to be totally senseless and arbitrary; it
> did not serve either Voldemort or GoF's plot.  If senseless cruelty
> is now a part of the HP world, almost anything goes in the future.

Well, it may not have been totally senseless.  It could prepare the way for
a future plot development.  For example, Harry could be set up in Book 5 and
wind up being accused of having killed Cedric himself, especially if there's
no sign of Voldemort coming back.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 10 10:18:14 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:18:14 +0100
Subject: Our Man Snape 
References: <8p6ln5+uev2@eGroups.com> <39B786C1.81DAF96C@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c01b10$9ab5b440$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1260


> > I agree that he is "allied with the powers of light" but do not agree
> > that that necessarily makes him "Our Man Snape."   What Snape does
> > goes way beyond surliness.  I'm not sure when you starting reading
> > posts so I'll try to summarize shortly.
>
> Oh, I agree absolutely.  In fact, just this week, I wrote almost exactly
the
> same thing to another person on another board who said in passing that
Snape
> was an "excellent" teacher.  As a former teacher myself, I brindled at
> that.  He's a horrible teacher--knows his stuff but is brutal to the
> students--and he's a rotten skunk, and I really wish he'd do something
about
> his halitosis.
>
> The point I was making, and I'll try to explain it again (briefly; I gotta
> get to work) is that as a writer I am really intrigued by what Rowling is
> doing here: I can't think of another fictional character who occupies this
> same fictional niche: Snape somehow or other made a decision that allied
him
> with the good--and Dumbledore, our moral compass vouches for him--but just
> about everything else in his nature seems to ally him with evil.  How can
> that one decision--and we don't yet know what it is--outweigh all his
> horribleness?  How horrible can you be and still be a hero, as long as
> you've got your feet set firmly on one true/good decision?  This is the
> reason why Snape has become such an intriguing character to me.
>
> (Can anyone else think of fictional characters in other books who are in a
> similar position?  I really can't, or at least I can't at this time of the
> morning.)

This is why I like Snape so much - he's so ambiguous and intriguing!  Most
of the other characters, while well developed, are fairly predictable - you
know where you are with them.  Not so Snape.  He's an evil bastard who
appears to be on the side of good, and he's very complex as a character.

"And as a postscript to that, isn't it interesting that the reason
Snape gives for hating Our Heroes are at least based in reality, at
some point.  He claims to hate Harry because he is a show-off and
thinks the rules don't apply to him, and to hate Hermione because she
is an annoying know-it-all.  Well, these are exaggerations, and even
if they weren't they wouldn't justify the way Snape treats them.  But
there is at least a grain of truth in what he says (no, I am not
implying that Harry is a show off in the sense that he craves
attention, but that he always feels like he has to take too much on
himself.  This *is* a character flaw of his,)"

Snape does seem to have a point though - Harry does have a sense that rules
don't apply to him - if you look at him in an unbiased way, he breaks far
more rules than Malfoy does, and gets caught more often.  While Hermione is
very eager to show off her knowledge.  Maybe Snape feels that because the
other teachers all think Harry and his friends are wonderful, and because
Harry is famous, it's his job to make sure Harry doesn't get too full of
himself.

Doesn't excuse Snape's extreme cruelty to Neville though...

I personally think that Snape is on the side of good, despite being a right
bastard.  I also think that there'll be some kind of redemption for Snape
before the end of the series.  Maybe he will save Harry's life, Harry will
save his, Snape will die saving someone's life, or fighting Voldemort, Snape
will fall in love and become nicer for it, or Harry and Snape will find
themselves trapped in some dangerous situation and have to work together to
escape.  Whatever, Snape, or at least his reputation will be improved
somehow.

Jinx





From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 10 14:29:06 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:29:06 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore
Message-ID: <39BB9AB2.F34A704B@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1261

Hi all --

Heidi -- I've been meaning to comment that I *loved* your son's contest
entry -- very clever.  I hope he wins, and I assume his age will require
that they allow one or both parents to attend the dinner with him.  Said
parent(s) can then engage in asking all our most pressing questions.
Did anyone else from this group enter the contest (Alicia/Sue, Scott,
Jeremy)???

Vivienne - thanks for your thoughts on the Lammas Night WWII issue.
Unfortunately, both the "Magical Battle for Britain" and the fictional
account by Kurtz ("Lammas Night") are both out of print.  I will
continue to search on ebay, alibris.com, etc.  But, in the meantime, I
decided to request inter-library loans.  Interesting issue.

DUMBLEDORE

I agree with Jim that it would be a betrayal of sorts if JKR made
Dumbledore evil at some point in the series.  It would undercut a number
of messages that she seems to be making (or attempting to convey)
through the books.

On the other hand, I don't know that I view any of the characters as
completely black or white.  I think this is basically Neil's point.  If
we approach it as continuum with pure white at the furtherest left point
of the line & pure black at the furtherest right point, where do the
characters fall?  Voldemort may well be pure black, but it's also likely
that there's just a spot or 2 of white somewhere in his character that
would place him just to the left of pure black on the continuum.
Possible.  It's also possible that he belongs in pure black -- hard to
know at this point.

The good guys -- are they really pure white?  Or, are they fallible
human beings, despite being magical?  I think the latter makes more
sense.  That's not to say that they're to the right of the mid-point or
even at the mid-point.  They are all probably much more white than
black.  But, isn't it likely that there is *some* gray area there?
Having failings or a weak spot or 2 in your character doesn't make you
*evil.*  I think that even though one of the over-arching themes of the
books seems to be the classic "good v evil" conflict, the characters
probably aren't quite so rigidly defined.

Don't most of us believe that Harry's moral compass will be tested at
some point in the books?  So far he makes the *right* decisions.  But, I
would be surprised if our hero doesn't experience any inner conflict or
turmoil at some point in this epic.  Dumbledore may well have resolved
his own conflicts in favor of the "good side" but it's just as likely
that he'll continue to confront new personal, moral challenges
throughout his life.

<<<We don't revere them to the extent Harry does and we're more aware of
their humanity.  However, this does not make Dumbledore a secret
undercover servant of Voldemort.  To distrust someone merely because he
does not live up to godlike standards is the mark of an immature
mind.>>>

I liked everything you said up until that last sentence Jinx.  I don't
think anyone who has expressed doubts about the pure goodness of
Dumbledore has done so because he falls short of "godlike standards."
It's because he is fallible (as you pointed out) that we adult readers
have reason to believe that he may not be *pure* white.  But, I don't
think any of us are holding him to "godlike standards."  And, when
you're dealing with JKR's fiction (where's she known to pull all sorts
of surprising plot twists on her readers) -- I don't know that distrust
isn't a bit deserved (rather than the "mark of an immature mind").

Like Neil -- I doubt any of us can accurately predict what JKR has in
store for Albus Dumbledore in the remaining 3 books.  It's fun to guess
but it's just that -- a guess.  Speculation.

Penny




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 10 13:44:39 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:44:39 -0500
Subject: If you're in Minnesota in December . . .
Message-ID: <39BB9047.FA13A7AA@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1262

I have some good news for you.

My sister is a buyer for Dayton's department store, and she gave me a
call yesterday to tell me that Dayton's has choosen to do Harry Potter
for their December holiday show.  You all know Dayton's if you've ever
seen a Mary Tyler Moore re-run--it's the department store in the
background when Mary Richards throws up her cap, right behind the lady
with the scarf on her head and the perplexed expression.

Every year for the month of December, Dayton's puts on an moving
figurine exhibit in their 12,000 square foot auditorium on the 12th
floor.  It's an extension of their decorated window display for
Christmas.  Nearly half a million people attend the holiday show each
year (yes, you read that figure correctly) because they are truly
spectacular.  And this year, they received the exclusive world-wide
rights to do Harry Potter.

Cindy mentioned that they're a bit worried about crowd control.  Because
of the popularity of Harry Potter, they think this might be their
largest crowd ever, so much so that they're considering extending the
show into January.

So, if you happen to be in the Midwest this holiday season, this will be
worth seeing.  Something to tide us all over until the movie comes out.

Peg




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Sep 10 15:38:16 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:38:16 -0000
Subject: LOTR, Snape, Dumbledore, & Kidlit deaths
In-Reply-To: <004901c01b10$996602c0$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8pg9t8+8aln@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1263

> > Killing off a major character in GoF was a major turning point; 
you just do not do that in 99% of children's literature<<

I don't know what books y'all read as children, but in my favorite 
series of books as a youn'un, major characters did die, leaving me in 
a wretched predicament if I happened to be reading during silent 
reading period at school.  It's very difficult to indulge in tears of 
grief if you're sitting at a school desk. (Unexpected tears at 
Matthew's death in _Anne of Green Gables_ in the 7th grade comes to 
mind.) But then again, I liked to read novels from a previous age, 
one in which people died from diseases in childhood.  Therefore, the 
authors wrote of death as a natural part of life (which it is) 
without considering what "damage" it may cause the delicate young 
psyches of the readers.  I hope I'm making sense here.  Please let me 
know if I am not.

As yet another HP addict who has not read LOTR, let me add that all 
the discussion of parallels between the two series is flying clear 
over my head.  I read the Hobbit in High School and enjoyed it.  Went 
to read one of the others and felt as if someone had picked me up and 
dropped me in darkest Africa, I was so lost.  Said book is now unread 
in a box in my spare room closet.  Perhaps I'll give it another go 
now, since its virtues are being extolled with such vehemence here.

As for Snape and Dumbledore.  I think neither is as good or as bad as 
we have been lead to believe. Snape is inexplicably cruel to students 
not in Slytherin, as we all know.  I'd love to know why. Jealousy out 
of being stuck in Slytherin house himself, maybe?  Being thwarted at 
every turn by others when something he desires comes up? I don't 
know. Dumbledore I have to trust. I don't know exactly why.  Perhaps 
because he has a sense of humor?  He certainly hasn't done anything 
to make suspect he is working for the Dark side.  He knows more than 
he lets on , that is true.  Does he know the future?  Does he have 
plan to defeat Voldemort only he knows?  We shall see.  I like the 
ambiguities floating around and the shades of grey in the 
background.  They add dimensions and facets to the series.

Trina (who has lately been lurking, but always present in spirit) 




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 10 16:09:08 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:09:08 -0500
Subject: Changing Email Address -- Egroups (Technical Question)
References: <39BB9AB2.F34A704B@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39BBB224.82240C13@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1264

Hi

Does anyone know if there are serious consequences if I (as this group's
"owner" & co-moderator) change my primary email address?  I've surfed
around the Help section of egroups without finding anything that assures
me one way or another.

I've recently obtained the equipment & software for a DSL connection
through swbell.  I haven't opened anything up yet, but I know from
talking to the sales rep that I will now have a swbell email address
(and will cancel with my current local ISP once the DSL is up &
running).

If anyone can tell me whether there are any problems I should be aware
of (and how & when to change my email over to swbell (i.e., once I have
the DSL installed or before?), I'd appreciate it.  I consider this to be
on-topic since I'm wondering if my actions might somehow affect the
group (as it does over at Yahoo when a sole Club Founder leaves the
Club).  But, you can email me privately if you have suggestions so we
don't tie up the whole group (linsenma at hic.net).

Thanks!!!

Penny




From nick at broomsticks.org  Sun Sep 10 16:00:23 2000
From: nick at broomsticks.org (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:00:23 +0100
Subject: OT: Problems with WBSTORE.COM
Message-ID: <003301c01b40$3cf32b00$91987ed4@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1265

Hi All

Quick question... has anyone else found that WBSTORE has not provided the
goods you ordered?

I place an order back in very early August... WBSTORE says it was dispatched
Aug 6th on a 5 to 7 Business Day delivery.   It is now 10th September, and
no sight of the goods.  Anyone else had this problem?

Thanks

Nick.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 15:38:01 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:38:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good (Far too long)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000909060212.013b6d78@popmail.dircon.co.uk> <004801c01b10$97ed1e60$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <007801c01b40$6011a580$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1266

Could this also be the reason for Snape's being "So" bad?  He is seen as over the top "baddie" professor?  It's an interesting thought, and I am very thankful for you Jinx for bringing it up!  Gives me something to think about.

Thanks again!
:)
Dee




Of course Dumbledore's not perfect.  He merely appears so because it is
Harry telling the story, and when you are Harry's age, adults appear very
archetypal in nature.  Thus he sees Dumbledore as the ultimate benevolent
father deity who can do anything and is perfect.  As he matures, this
changes as the archetypal projection gets withdrawn and he becomes aware of
Dumbledore's fallibility.  We will follow the same process to a certain
extent as we read the books.  However, because we are older and more
cynical, we're also aware of the adult characters' flaws and ambiguities.
We don't revere them to the extent Harry does and we're more aware of their
humanity.  However, this does not make Dumbledore a secret undercover
servant of Voldemort.  To distrust someone merely because he does not live
up to godlike standards is the mark of an immature mind.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 16:03:15 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:03:15 -0400
Subject: OMG!  I want it! I want it!
Message-ID: <008601c01b40$a4d8c360$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1267

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/39786105

I am in love?  Anyone interested in getting me an early Christmas present, or a late Birthday?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 16:13:44 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:13:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Our Man Snape 
References: <8p6ln5+uev2@eGroups.com> <39B786C1.81DAF96C@ibm.net> <004a01c01b10$9ab5b440$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <009901c01b42$1896c760$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1268


Doesn't excuse Snape's extreme cruelty to Neville though...

How about this idea, then?  Perhaps Snape was best friends with the folks who "destroyed" Neville's parents, and he is upset over their being "gaoled".  He hence takes out the loss of his friends on the son of those responsible--if Neville's parents wouldn't have been so (fill in the blank), the friends would still be around/alive/sane, whatever.

Just an idea.

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 17:08:05 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:08:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good 
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000910170805.007156c0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1269

Jinx said:

"Of course Dumbledore's not perfect.  He merely appears so because it is
Harry telling the story, and when you are Harry's age, adults appear very
archetypal in nature.  Thus he sees Dumbledore as the ultimate benevolent
father deity who can do anything and is perfect.  As he matures, this
changes as the archetypal projection gets withdrawn and he becomes aware of
Dumbledore's fallibility.  We will follow the same process to a certain
extent as we read the books.  However, because we are older and more
cynical, we're also aware of the adult characters' flaws and ambiguities.
We don't revere them to the extent Harry does and we're more aware of their
humanity.  However, this does not make Dumbledore a secret undercover
servant of Voldemort.  To distrust someone merely because he does not live
up to godlike standards is the mark of an immature mind."

***
I agree with you for the most part.  The idea that we are viewing the other
characters mostly through the eyes of Harry Potter and the other children
has been raised before and it does help to explain the rather polarised
interpretations of Dumbledore and Snape.  The fact that we are adults who
are "aware of characters' flaws and ambiguities" is precisely why I
challenge the popular characterisation of Dumbledore. I'm not suggesting
that he will be unveiled as Voldemort's sidekick - far from it! I'm just
questioning, trying to open up the debate (well, looks like I succeeded there). 

Reading your last sentence, I guess I could have taken offence, except for
the fact that unquestioning trust is the more the mark of an immature mind
and it's distrust that tends to kick in as we get older.      

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Sep 10 17:38:18 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:38:18 EDT
Subject: Lammas Night (was: Dumbledore)
Message-ID: <id.10092000133818.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 1270

<Vivienne - thanks for your thoughts on the Lammas Night WWII issue. Unfortunately, both the "Magical Battle for Britain" and the fictional account by Kurtz ("Lammas Night") are both out of print.  I will continue to search on ebay, alibris.com, etc.  But, in the meantime, I decided to request inter-library loans.  Interesting issue.>

Penny - interestingly enough, I actually bought a second-hand copy of "Lammas Night" from a street vendor about 3 weeks ago.  You know, one of those 3 for $5 deals.  Anywho, if you want to email me your address, I'll send it to you if you like.  It was a good book.

voicelady



From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 17:45:40 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:45:40 EDT
Subject: Advice please.... 
Message-ID: <e1.97f1a11.26ed22c4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1271

I am tining of buyingoine, or BOTH, of these books, but what would be the 
difference between the first one marked "adult" and the second one? 
Profanity???!!! 

Also, how much does this convert out to be in American money?

Most Sincerely, 
Pamela


  Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Adult)
Narrated by actor Stephen Fry.
Cover to Cover Cassettes Ltd.
Dispatch: 24 hours.
MC: ?19.79 (save ?2.20) Oct 1999
 
  Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
Narrated by actor Stephen Fry.
Cover to Cover Cassettes Ltd.
Dispatch: 24 hours.
CD: ?34.19 (save ?3.80) Apr 2000



From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 17:45:58 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:45:58 EDT
Subject: Advice please.... 
Message-ID: <70.2e45305.26ed22d6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1272

I am thinking of buying one, or BOTH, of these books, but what would be the 
difference between the first one marked "adult" and the second one? 
Profanity???!!! 

Also, how much does this convert out to be in American money?

Most Sincerely, 
Pamela


  Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Adult)
Narrated by actor Stephen Fry.
Cover to Cover Cassettes Ltd.
Dispatch: 24 hours.
MC: ?19.79 (save ?2.20) Oct 1999
 
  Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
Narrated by actor Stephen Fry.
Cover to Cover Cassettes Ltd.
Dispatch: 24 hours.
CD: ?34.19 (save ?3.80) Apr 2000



From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 17:53:57 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:53:57 EDT
Subject: Salutations!!
Message-ID: <ab.60480c.26ed24b5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1273

Some of the groups receiving this letter know me by my business addy of 
UniqueOriginals. I decided to unsub under that name and resub under this one 
as my Harry Potter addiction has created a massive increase in e-mail! LOL! 
As for the new groups I am just joining, please read on:

Thanks for the welcome! 

I am here as a fan but I am also a retailer. Don't get me wrong, I am not 
here 
to make a sales pitch, I assure you! I LOVE Harry Potter! Grew up reading 
Tolkien and Piers Anthony, so I am a big fantasy fan, but now I also make a 
living selling these types of things, among other collectibles as well, and I 
am fairly new to Harry Potter. Am now in the almost finished with the 3rd 
book and have 
decided to begin the Audio tapes, too! Its so different listening to Jim Dale 
and realizing I was pronouncing things wrong! (grin)

Thanks again, and I am looking forward to being a member!

Sincerely, 
Pamela
www.UniqueOriginals.net



From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 18:15:12 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:15:12 EDT
Subject: Muggles For Harry Potter pins
Message-ID: <37.a066909.26ed29b0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1274

From:   hazel-rah7 at juno.com (Amanda A Rhea)

<< too, on Fairview Drive. Sorry, I just have a little obcession/fixation
 with Oklahoma.  Don't mind me.  Did you go to Red Earth this summer? Aw,
 I miss that so much.  Haven't seen Bricktown either, or the memorial. >>

Amanda, I LOVE going to all the places you just mentioned! As a matter of 
fact, last night we went to the German Fest in Choctaw, OK. Vunderbaugh!! 
(grin) Have you ever been?? Say, can we send attachments thru this group? We 
took tons of pics while we were there!

Did you say you were from Oklahoma? You should go to my web site. Right smack 
dab in the middle of the main page is a photo of O'Kay'Cie, the Oklahoma 
Memorial Bombing Bear. She islimited to 10,000 produced & only $9.00. Part of 
the proceeds go to the Memorial Fund. This is a project I hold very dear to 
my heart, so please pass the word on. Its for a very good cause....       
www.UniqueOriginals.net

And my address is below for those Muggles For Harry Potter Pins you wanted. 
Again, they are $1.50 each for e-group members and they are no longer 
printing them, so once I am out I will have no more! 

Most Sincerely,
Pamela

Unique Originals
2417 S.W. 101st
OKC, OK.  73159



From robusdin at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 18:25:30 2000
From: robusdin at hotmail.com (Rob Usdin)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:25:30 -0400
Subject: OT: D&D Anyone?
References: <37.a066909.26ed29b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE30Wdjid0g8qoj33op00002e66@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1275

Just curious -

Anyone on the list a D&D (or other role playing game) player?  I would think that RPG players would be attracted partcularly to Harry Potter.  Anyone?  Personally - I am in a 1st edition AD&D campaign with a group of friends I have known ince college/high school.  This is the only RPG I play, but I have played others int he past.  We are considering switching to the newly-released 3rd edition of D&D.

Seems to me the this renewed interest in D&D is partially fueled by the Harry Potter craze.  My little brother (I am in the Big Brother program) is 9 and has taken more than a passing interest in my D&D past time, as well as getting into Magic: The Gathering Card game.  Seems like Pokemon is tsarting to take a backseat to it in fact!

Anyone?  Experiences?

--*Rob



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 18:26:50 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:26:50 EDT
Subject: OMG!!!!
Message-ID: <62.70c138f.26ed2c6a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1276

I AM SOOOOOOOO SORRY!! (Pamela, face flaming red!) 

I didn't mean to send the post to Amanda to the whole group!! 

A thousand apologies....I think I'll go now.......sigh........

Most Sincerely,
Pamela



From potterheads at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 18:26:59 2000
From: potterheads at aol.com (potterheads at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:26:59 EDT
Subject: Shippers?
Message-ID: <81.7693fe.26ed2c73@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1277

I am thining of joining this group but have no idea what "shippers" means!! 
Help!

Most Sincerely,
Pamela

<<  harrypotter4bigkids 
 We are a group of X-Files fans who also happen to enjoy reading and 
discussing the Harry Potter series. Also, we might write some XF-Harry 
crossover fanfic. (Hey, haven't YOU ever wondered what Mulder did while he 
was at Oxford?;) Please note that we are mostly 'shippers, and that there 
WILL be discussion of these elements in both XF and HP, as well as a few 
spoilers of Books 1-4  >>





From Kellywazd at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 18:40:04 2000
From: Kellywazd at aol.com (Kellywazd at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:40:04 EDT
Subject: HI, I have a question
Message-ID: <26.a8661e2.26ed2f84@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1278

HI Everyone,
Ok in GOF, Voldemort said that three were killed in his service. Sirius names 
two. Who was the third if it was not Pro. Quirrell? Because....Quirrell was 
never a Death Eater. He was brainwashed by Voldemort when he was a teacher.
Thanks
Kelly



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep 10 18:54:31 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:54:31 +0100
Subject: Names, that mirror, snape and teaching(OT)
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEECBCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1279

Hello all;

Penny wrote: "He shows up as Harry Potter on the Marauders Map, and even
when professors have addressed Ron as Ronald"

As Ron is Ronald does that mean that Bill is William, Charlie is Charles and
Fred is Frederick?

Rita wrote: "The Mirror showed Ron himself as Quidditch hero and Head Boy,
and there is no reason to believe that to be a true vision"

It shows what Ron wanted most. Which was to be more successful than his
brothers who overshadow him. It is not a false vision; it is something that
may happen (but I doubt it will).

Rita wrote: "so Harry's vision of his relatives could also have been a false
vision."

If it had been a false vision then I am sure some comment would have been
made as Harry gets the photo album. Which definitely contains photos of his
parents and maybe also of his grandparents.

Ebony wrote: "While Snape is not my favorite character, I am not shocked by
his negative teaching style.  Anyone who seeks to condemn him should spend a
day or two teaching an overcrowded room of adolescents. Every teacher has
Snapish moments.  We're not perfect, and neither are the kids we teach."

What worries me more about Snape's teaching is that he seems to favour
Slytherin and be against Gryffindor before they have even got into the
class. I can understand him snapping at students that misbehave but it is
some of his other actions that disturb me.

Ebony wrote: "Common sense should reveal to the American public that telling
its brightest and best that "those who can, do; those who can't, teach" is
self-defeating to say the least.  IMO it is rather like shooting ourselves
in the collective foot."

In the UK we are suffering from a teacher shortage. Part time or temporary
teachers have filled many posts. It has been worked out that if half of the
mathematics undergraduates that finished their course in June went into
teaching then all the mathematic vacancies in schools will be filled. I will
not be going into teaching and I know few others who want too. I will leave
others to work if the problem will get better or worse!

Simon

--
Last Movie Seen:  Stuart Little
Current Book:     The Monster Book of Comic Fantasy
Current CD:       Automatic for the People by REM
Current HP Quote: "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 19:18:17 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:18:17 -0000
Subject: Names, that mirror, snape and teaching(OT)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEECBCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8pgmpp+h86a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1280

> In the UK we are suffering from a teacher shortage. Part time or 
temporary
> teachers have filled many posts. It has been worked out that if 
half of the
> mathematics undergraduates that finished their course in June went 
into
> teaching then all the mathematic vacancies in schools will be 
filled. I will
> not be going into teaching and I know few others who want too. I 
will leave
> others to work if the problem will get better or worse!

I am a great believer in economics as a solution many problems, and 
it is obvious that that what is needed to solve a teacher shortage is 
to raise teacher salaries to induce more people to enter into this 
profession.  Of course, hopefully they wouldn't be in it for just the 
money :-)
If there is truly a shortage of teachers at Hogwarts, they ought to 
raise teacher salaries there.  But thinking about this brings up a 
couple questions:
1) If there is a teacher shortage, esecially for the DADA job, why 
doesn't Dumbledore give Snape the DADA job, since he supposedly wants 
it?  I think Dumbly has some specific reason for not giving Snape the 
job; perhaps Snape is the only really good Potions teacher 
available.  On the other hand, Dubly might not want to let Snape do 
too much studying in the Dark Arts, since studying them too closely 
is what led to the corruption of Quirell.  (note: a similar thing 
happened to Saruman in LOTR).
2) where exactly does Hogwarts get its money?  I don't recall Harry 
having to get money for tuition from his Gringott's vault when he 
went there with Hagrid in Book 1.  So is it the wizard form of a 
public school (which would mean that wizards would have to be taxed 
somehow too), or do they raise money through other funds, such as 
alumni contributions? Or perhaps Harry got some sort of scholarship, 
or perhaps Dumbly paid the money out of his own pocket?  I guess any 
of those are possible.




From davidgluck at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 19:19:28 2000
From: davidgluck at hotmail.com (davidgluck at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:19:28 -0000
Subject: Does Harry Have a middle name
Message-ID: <8pgms0+1ccd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1281

I was going to a website and they asked what Harry's middle name was 
as a quiz.  I do not remember him having a middle name but I could be 
wrong.  Do you know what it is.  I also couldn't find were the Grey 
Lady passed Harry in the books.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 08:39:02 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:39:02 +0200
Subject: Comparing Tolkein & JKR
References: <39BB9047.FA13A7AA@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <00e001c01bcb$bd3ee2a0$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1282

[LONG POST]

There's been some Tolkein talk recently, and I thought I'd revise a post I
sent to a different forum some time back.  I've tried to formulate a few
thoughts about how The Hobbit, LOTR, and the Harry Potter books compare in
terms of language, protagonists and plot.

CAVEAT LECTOR: I'm coming at the question both as a raving Potterhead and
the sort of old Middle Earth hand who can't imagine how anyone with a taste
for good books could need more than three days to finish LOTR.  (BTW, Neil:
I've noticed that people who think they're cars are often a little
book-challenged.  Besides, you yourself have also admitted to not liking
Phynigan's Whack [hey MSN, is that better??], which proves a fundamental
aesthetic deficit.)

HP & the Hobbit:

I think HP is on par as an example of classical and compelling (and
nominally children's) literature. They both inhabit a world that's REAL.
Middle Earth and Hogwarts are tangible, full-orbed places that are no less
real than Bronx--even if they are "unplottable." You simply know that you
could step out of the story and go for a walk without bonking (err, banging)
into stage props.

They're very different, of course. Tolkein's language is much more complex.
My wife, who is a German speaker, had a lot of trouble wading through the
Hobbit but consumes HP almost as fast as I do. I happen to love Tolkein's
language--it's relaxed, almost avuncular, yet has the controlled and
polished tone only a Cambridge Lit. professor can get. But that's who JRRT
was. JRK is a different person. I think JRK writes prose that perfectly fits
the person she is and the story she's telling--and JRRT did the same. I
might add that though you chuckle with JRRT, you ROTL with JRK.  I think the
Hobbit is more carefully polished, though.  (Of course, it's shorter.)

As far as protagonists go, I find both heroes very compelling. They're
exciting & charismatic, yet ordinary, too. But I find Bilbo more so. He's
more complex: there's a deeper tension between his flaws (he really does
start out boring and he really is a little dishonest) and his virtues (he
really is brave, resourceful, and generous). His transformation through the
book locks into that tension and makes for one thick plot. Harry (at *this*
point in the story--but we're only half way through!) doesn't seem to have
that same level of complexity. Yes, he's got the ordinary side, and
sometimes he's scared and makes unwise choices--but where are the clearly
delineated character *faults* that he needs to face to become a complete
person? (I think that may be coming, tho. I thought his fight with Ron in
GoF was the most emotionally moving part of the book.)  At this point in ths
HP series, Snape is the only person showing a really compelling inner
dynamic.

But HP has a more complex story line than the Hobbit. I mean--we're talking
6 books to 1, and those 6 books are telling a single story. Of course, the
Hobbit is part of a bigger story--but in terms of its significance to LOTR,
it's just a sort pastoral prologue.

HP & Lord of the Rings:

LOTR has a very different tone from the H. I miss the light-heartedness of
either the Hobbit or HP. There isn't much chuckling left (at least following
the first section), and I don't find it as polished, either. LOTR has a BIG
story to tell, and does so. But I miss the leisurely pace. BTW, I thought
GoF was also less leisurely than HP's 1-3--although the humour is still
brilliant.

Protagonists: I like Harry better than Frodo. For some reason, in all my 6
or so readings of LTOR, I never managed to find Frodo inspiring. I care
about him, and I recognize the depth of his struggle, but he just doesn't
have the pluck and luck--the charisma--that either Harry or Bilbo have.
(Maybe that's my fault, but so be it.)

Plot: Well they're both very complex. But LOTR has an undertone of sorrow
and loss that effects me more deeply than the HP series (so far!) With each
step Frodo takes towards the chasm, the beauty and glory and wealth and
magic of Middle Earth are a little closer to their death. And yet, that
death is their only hope. That's a plot that hits you in the gut, inspires
you--makes you a better man. HP hasn't (yet) plowed into that kind of
tension. He may. I not sure whether I hope so or not--because I don't want
to see either Harry or Hogwarts or the whole magical world face the depth of
sacrifice that Frodo, the elves, and Middle Earth faced. And yet ... and yet
...

Anyway, that's a few thoughts. Comments?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 08:44:53 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:44:53 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard porn (not quite OT but very random and tasteless)
References: <8pe95h+kfr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e601c01bcc$8ff2b460$8e71023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1283

> Besides all the awful things that Aberforth's Goat has said since we
> came to e-groups

O dear.  And I thought myself a very well-mannered goat indeed.  <sigh>
Genius reviled, that's what it is!

Bleeet!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Sep 10 19:43:00 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:43:00 -0000
Subject: Dumble., Playstation, Muggles for HP pins
Message-ID: <8pgo84+f060@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1284

Hi everyone--

Some thoughts I had...

I can't say whether Playstation will date the books or not, but what 
I like about JKR mentioning them is this:  the character who likes 
videogames is one that kids most likely hate--Dudley, the mean, 
hateful, spoiled bully.  I'm pleased that the main characters--Harry, 
Ron, and Hermione-- aren't dying to play videogames, they don't even 
mention them.  To me, these games are overall just a big waste of 
time, not to mention money.  Less redeeming qualities than most TV 
and movies.

Dumbledore

Isn't the theme of an evil character owing his life to a good 
character rather common?  I've never read any Tolkien books either, 
but this theme of a bad char.'s indebtedness to a good char. seems to 
occur quite frequently in literature, movies, comics, etc.

If Dumble. did see socks in Erised, what I got from this is that at 
that point Dumble wants for nothing.  Vold isn't as powerful any 
more, and Dumble is as happy as he can be.  All is well in his life.  
He has no big *wants*, so socks would be a little pleasure for him...

Perhaps Dumble isn't 'pure white' and Vold isn't 'pure black', but 
they seem to be the closest to it in this world.  I agree that Dumble 
is our moral compass, and for him to exhibit any Vold qualities would 
be a type of betrayal.  Dumble needs to be the concept of good, as 
Vold is the concept of evil.  There has to be that balance.  Remember 
the scene in GoF when Moody/Crouch is about to kill Harry, and 
Dumble, McG, and Snape come in?  Dumble zapped the tar out of Moody, 
and Harry notices the look on Dumble's face.  The look was "...more 
terrible than Harry could have ever imagined.  There was no benign 
smile upon Dumble's face, no twinkle in the eyes behind the 
spectacles.  There was cold fury in every line of the ancient face; a 
sense of power radiated from Dumble as though he were giving off 
burning heat."  ~This~ is the type of darkness we'll see from Dumble 
in the future.  (What I think, anyway.)  He's always so serene, but 
now we'll get to see why Dumble's the only wizard Vold ever feared.  
We'll see his toughness, hardness, power, strength.  I hope so, at 
any rate.  This is a side of Dumble I long to see.

Kelley 

P.S.  Pamela, are personal checks okay, or do you need money orders 
for the pins?




From misfonts at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 20:17:12 2000
From: misfonts at aol.com (Jenna )
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:17:12 -0000
Subject: Does Harry Have a middle name
In-Reply-To: <8pgms0+1ccd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pgq88+1p45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1285

JK Rowling said in an online chat that Harry's name was James.  HTH 
(hope that helps) :o)




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, davidgluck at h... wrote:
> I was going to a website and they asked what Harry's middle name
was 
> as a quiz.  I do not remember him having a middle name but I could 
be 
> wrong.  Do you know what it is.  I also couldn't find were the Grey 
> Lady passed Harry in the books.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 10 20:32:50 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:32:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names, that mirror, snape and teaching(OT)
References: <8pgmpp+h86a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39BBEFF2.42F15A81@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1286



Steve Bates wrote:

> 2) where exactly does Hogwarts get its money?  I don't recall Harry
> having to get money for tuition from his Gringott's vault when he
> went there with Hagrid in Book 1.  So is it the wizard form of a
> public school (which would mean that wizards would have to be taxed
> somehow too), or do they raise money through other funds, such as
> alumni contributions? Or perhaps Harry got some sort of scholarship,
> or perhaps Dumbly paid the money out of his own pocket?  I guess any
> of those are possible.

Don't worry.  As soon as Harry, Ron and Hermione graduate, they'll get put
on the mailing list, and they'll be hit up by an owl from the alumni
committee every quarter, begging for money for the endowment fund.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 10 21:08:32 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:08:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Facile fantasy (was: Dumbledore the  not-necessarily-good (Far too long))
References: <1.5.4.32.20000909060212.013b6d78@popmail.dircon.co.uk> <004801c01b10$97ed1e60$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <39BBF850.649ACD60@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1287

Jinx wrote: <snip>

Some fantasy is really good.  Some of it sticks with the same

> Elves/Men/Orcs/Dwarves mould with virtually interchangeable characters from
> book to book and never really evolves beyond swords and sorcery LOTR fanfic.
> It's like action flicks with magic involved.  You have to be careful with
> these things.
>
> Jinx

Tappan King, a fantasy/sf editor refers to that sort of book as "elfy-welfy
books."  Which I have always found rather hilarious.

[<OT:>  I also think the most devastating comment I ever heard about a fantasy
novel was that it was "too derivative of Terry Brooks' _Sword of Shannara_.

Having said that, I'll add that I've never read _Sword of Shannara_ myself, and
I was surprised to discover that I liked his Magic Kingdom for Sale series,
mostly because I was vastly amused by his depiction of an attorney from our
world who becomes the king of a fantasy world--and yet he STILL KEEPS THINKING
LIKE AN ATTORNEY.  As a woman who is married to an attorney and pays the
mortgage by working as a legal secretary, I found it to be a lot of fun, despite
all the cliches. </OT:>]

I don't particularly hear anyone accusing JKR of writing facile fantasy (well,
except for Harold Bloom, of course).  And although JKR does use some familiar
fantasy tropes, I haven't heard of anyone (other than Nancy Stouffer) accusing
her of lazily/blatantly ripping anyone off.

I wonder what Harold Bloom would say about Nancy Stouffer's work?  ;-)

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 10 21:22:47 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:22:47 -0500
Subject: Free Will
Message-ID: <39BBFBA7.EFEE4B9C@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1288

Observation du jour: free will.

It all comes back to one of the seminal statements in the series,
something that Dumbledore
says in Book 2: "It is our choices, Harry, that make us who we are, much
more than our
abilities." Voldemort's followers try to diminish free will (everything
from the Imperius curse
down to the leg locker spell Draco puts on Neville). Barty Crouch Jr.
and Sr. were both
intimately involved with the Imperius curse. The point of Voldemort's
dark mark was to
COMPEL his followers to apparate to his side instantly whenever he
touched it on anyone of
them--and then do whatever he bid them. They follow him out of fear AND
out of the desire
for power over others.

Whatever motivates Harry and his friends, it isn't power, and isn't the
desire to be controlled,
nor to control others. Harry is growing up and coming into his own by
learning when to "go
along" with the rules--but understanding that there are times he may
have to break the rules to
do what is right. (i.e, going through the trap door in book 1, rescuing
Buckbeak to save Sirius
in Book 3). And as he grows further, he must learn to fight attempts to
control and manipulate
him. He saved himself in Book 4 by refusing to kneel at Voldemort's
feet--he stood up and
defended himself and as a result, managed to escape in the end.

What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of his own
destiny; he must not
accept being controlled by others. Sometimes rules must be followed, but
they must not be
followed blindly. Harry's moral education is meant to teach him how to
tell the difference.

Comments?

Peg




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 10 20:52:18 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:52:18 +0100
Subject: Magical Battle for Britain
Message-ID: <39BBF482.EFE187A0@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1289

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net> wrote:

>Vivienne - thanks for your thoughts on the Lammas Night WWII issue.
>Unfortunately, both the "Magical Battle for Britain" and the fictional
>account by Kurtz ("Lammas Night") are both out of print.  I will
>continue to search on ebay, alibris.com, etc.  But, in the meantime, I
>decided to request inter-library loans.  Interesting issue.

If you try advanced book exchange they have a few copies of this one at
least.

http://www.abebooks.com/


Vivienne






From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Sun Sep 10 22:18:41 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:18:41 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Stickers
Message-ID: <49.a1cc47.26ed62c1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1290

In a message dated 9/8/2000 8:52:53 PM CST, ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:

<< HOUSE PENNANT STICKERS
 
 One of my former fifth graders found HP merchandise this summer 
 during a trip to either Virginia or West Virginia.  She and her mom  
 purchased an item for me--a set of HP House "Pennant" stickers.  
 Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw are all rendered 
 with mascot and in the appropriate colors.  I'm not sure where to 
 purchase them, but as a Quidditch fan thought I would mention it.  :) >>

I must have a set of these stickers!!!!  Is there anything written on the 
back that would indicate who produces them?  With that information, I can 
probably locate a set. 

Many thanks, and
Love & Light
Elizabeth



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 22:30:10 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:30:10 -0000
Subject: (OT)  Facile fantasy (was: Dumbledore the  not-necessarily-good (Far too long))
In-Reply-To: <39BBF850.649ACD60@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ph21i+3sus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1291

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> [<OT:>  I also think the most devastating comment I ever heard 
about a fantasy
> novel was that it was "too derivative of Terry Brooks' _Sword of 
Shannara_.
> 
> Having said that, I'll add that I've never read _Sword of Shannara_ 
myself, and
> I was surprised to discover that I liked his Magic Kingdom for Sale 
series,
> mostly because I was vastly amused by his depiction of an attorney 
from our
> world who becomes the king of a fantasy world--and yet he STILL 
KEEPS THINKING
> LIKE AN ATTORNEY.  As a woman who is married to an attorney and 
pays the
> mortgage by working as a legal secretary, I found it to be a lot of 
fun, despite
> all the cliches. </OT:>]

I think I'll check this one out, Peg.  I read the Shannara series as 
a young teen, but never picked up another Brooks novel once I moved 
on to other genres.

Right now I have a "to buy/to check out" list two feet long from this 
mailing list alone.  Stop recommending books, you guys.  :)

Ebony AKA AngieJ (waiting for her movers and getting her last e-mails 
in before she packs up the computer)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 22:36:05 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:36:05 -0000
Subject: Free Will
In-Reply-To: <39BBFBA7.EFEE4B9C@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8ph2cl+t02g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1292

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Observation du jour: free will.

<snip>

> What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of his own
> destiny; he must not > accept being controlled by others. Sometimes 
rules must be followed, but> they must not be > followed blindly. 
Harry's moral education is meant to teach him how to> tell the 
difference.
> 
> Comments?

I don't have anything really profound to say about this, except that 
this is the theme that most resonated with me upon first reading 
these books.  My faith teaches me that free will is the #1 aspect of 
our humanity, and these stories affirm that.  What is right is not 
always what is expedient, and vice versa--Harry learns that in every 
single book so far.  

Keep the thoughtful posts coming.  The discussions they prompt have 
been quite insightful!

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 10 22:38:47 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:38:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: D&D Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <OE30Wdjid0g8qoj33op00002e66@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCELACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1293

I don't play any RPG's, but I just started collecting cards from "Magic: The
Gathering" -- I have about 430 original cards, plus another 500+ in mint
condition that I'm willing to trade, if anyone out there is interested.  I'm
only collecting, so I only want one of each card, preferably also in
excellent condition.

Sorry for the Off Topic.

By the way, Rob -- do you prefer RPG's in person or online?  Which do you
like better?



-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Usdin [mailto:robusdin at hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 11:26 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: D&D Anyone?
Just curious -

Anyone on the list a D&D (or other role playing game) player?  I would think
that RPG players would be attracted partcularly to Harry Potter.  Anyone?
Personally - I am in a 1st edition AD&D campaign with a group of friends I
have known ince college/high school.  This is the only RPG I play, but I
have played others int he past.  We are considering switching to the
newly-released 3rd edition of D&D.

Seems to me the this renewed interest in D&D is partially fueled by the
Harry Potter craze.  My little brother (I am in the Big Brother program) is
9 and has taken more than a passing interest in my D&D past time, as well as
getting into Magic: The Gathering Card game.  Seems like Pokemon is tsarting
to take a backseat to it in fact!

Anyone?  Experiences?

--*Rob



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 22:43:31 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:43:31 -0000
Subject: HP Stickers and Kathy's H/H Evidence Request
In-Reply-To: <49.a1cc47.26ed62c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8ph2qj+3vp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1294

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> I must have a set of these stickers!!!!  Is there anything written 
on the 
> back that would indicate who produces them?  With that information, 
I can 
> probably locate a set. 

I'm not sure, Elizabeth--in any case, I will check at school 
tomorrow.  If all goes well, I'll be back on tomorrow night after 
class and will post any information I find.

Kathy--I wasn't ignoring your request; it's just that I've been 
behind with the posts and my own e-mails for the past 4-5 days.  I 
sent my observations to Penny just to make sure that I wasn't being 
redundant.  I think she knows just about every shred of H/H evidence 
in existence.  :)  If I find out that this hasn't been brought up, 
I'll post it. 

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep 10 22:47:45 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:47:45 +0100
Subject: Tolkein and JKR compared
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAECJCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1295

"I'm coming at the question both as a raving Potterhead and the sort of old
Middle Earth hand who can't imagine how anyone with a taste for good books
could need more than three days to finish LOTR."

I can see this applying to the end of the series but I found the start too
slow. As I got further into the novel I read more and more at a time. I
guess it was not the best of novels to pick to read while revising!

"I happen to love Tolkein's language--it's relaxed, almost avuncular, yet
has the controlled and polished tone only a Cambridge Lit. professor can
get"

But he was educated in a far better place (Exeter and Merton colleges,
Oxford University)!

"I might add that though you chuckle with JRRT, you ROTL with JRK"

Who is JRK? (So now I am just being pedantic!)

"As far as protagonists go, I find both heroes very compelling. They're
exciting & charismatic, yet ordinary, too. But I find Bilbo more so. He's
more complex:"

This could be that Bilbo is fairly old but Harry is just a kid. Children are
usually less complex.

"With each step Frodo takes towards the chasm, the beauty and glory and
wealth and magic of Middle Earth are a little closer to their death. And
yet, that death is their only hope. That's a plot that hits you in the gut,
inspires you--makes you a better man."

This is what makes LOTR such an amazing book. The whole quest that is set
out on is one that will destroy many things but is done to preserve some
things. For Harry would the same thing be for the wizard world to be
discovered but Voldemort to die.

Someone mentioned about the similarities between Boromir and Ron. Asking if
Ron could betray Harry in the same way Boromir does to Frodo. This is an
interesting idea. This betrayal would put them, and others, at risk but then
Ron would try and do something to redeem himself and then die. Another nail
in Ron's coffin and one more for the H/H shippers, even if most people use
this to mean Harry/Hermione and not the infinitely more probable
Harry/Hedwig.

Simon




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 10 23:05:12 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:05:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Facile fantasy 
In-Reply-To: <39BBF850.649ACD60@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGELACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1296

If JKR has borrowed certain elements from previous fantasy fiction, I will
say that she has taken those elements and combined them in a way that no
other author has ever done before.  There's never been a phenomenon like the
Harry Potter books - they appeal to all ages, all nationalities, all types
of kids and adults.  It's like the difference between a good cook and a bad
cook.  They can take the exact same ingredients and produce a masterpiece or
a garbage-disposal disaster.



-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:09 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Facile fantasy (was: Dumbledore the
not-necessarily-good (Far too long))

I don't particularly hear anyone accusing JKR of writing facile fantasy
(well,
except for Harold Bloom, of course).  And although JKR does use some
familiar
fantasy tropes, I haven't heard of anyone (other than Nancy Stouffer)
accusing
her of lazily/blatantly ripping anyone off.

Peg





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 23:13:20 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:13:20 -0000
Subject: Chat Scripts
Message-ID: <8ph4ig+ba56@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1297

http://www.egroups.com/settings/HPforGrownupsChatScripts?

This is where to find the chat scripts.  :)

I will be moving the others there too (thought I had 
already...strange).

Dee





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 10 23:17:49 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:17:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will
In-Reply-To: <39BBFBA7.EFEE4B9C@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOELBCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1298

What interests me is how often Dumbledore aids Harry in breaking the rules.
He gives him the  Invisibility Cloak, and then when Harry loses it while
breaking quite a number of rules (such as being out of dorm after hours,
sneaking illegal dragons out of the country, etc), Dumbledore returns the
cloak to Harry without punishment or verbal cautions.  He also encourages
Harry and Hermione to use the Time Turner to help both Buckbeak and Sirius
escape, even though both are condemned by official laws and regulations.
Yes, Harry IS getting special treatment from the Headmaster, because
Dumbledore knows something about Harry and Voldemort that the rest of us
don't know yet -- and he's guiding Harry along a path that will allow Harry
to do whatever it is he's going to end up doing by Book 7 (successfully, or
not).


-----Original Message-----
From: Peg Kerr [mailto:pkerr06 at attglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 2:23 PM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will

Observation du jour: free will.

What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of his own destiny;
he must not accept being controlled by others. Sometimes rules must be
followed, but they must not be followed blindly. Harry's moral education is
meant to teach him how to tell the difference.

Comments?

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 23:12:27 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:12:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Stickers
References: <49.a1cc47.26ed62c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c01b7c$9c5b55e0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1299

These stickers are running currently on YahooAuctions for a .25.  That's not too bad a price (that's per sheet).  There is a minor shipping and handling fee.

Hope this helps?

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 6:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] HP Stickers



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  In a message dated 9/8/2000 8:52:53 PM CST, ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:

  << HOUSE PENNANT STICKERS

  One of my former fifth graders found HP merchandise this summer 
  during a trip to either Virginia or West Virginia.  She and her mom  
  purchased an item for me--a set of HP House "Pennant" stickers.  
  Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Slytherin, and Ravenclaw are all rendered 
  with mascot and in the appropriate colors.  I'm not sure where to 
  purchase them, but as a Quidditch fan thought I would mention it.  :) >>

  I must have a set of these stickers!!!!  Is there anything written on the 
  back that would indicate who produces them?  With that information, I can 
  probably locate a set. 

  Many thanks, and
  Love & Light
  Elizabeth

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 10 23:14:07 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:14:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Free Will
References: <8ph2cl+t02g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004101c01b7c$d349d5e0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1300

Hey, Ebony, along these lines, I would be interested in hearing what you used in that email you talked about ic, about the one child at school's parents, to convince them towards HP.

Thanks!
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ebony Elizabeth 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 6:36 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Free Will



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
  > Observation du jour: free will.

  <snip>

  > What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of his own
  > destiny; he must not > accept being controlled by others. Sometimes 
  rules must be followed, but> they must not be > followed blindly. 
  Harry's moral education is meant to teach him how to> tell the 
  difference.
  > 
  > Comments?

  I don't have anything really profound to say about this, except that 
  this is the theme that most resonated with me upon first reading 
  these books.  My faith teaches me that free will is the #1 aspect of 
  our humanity, and these stories affirm that.  What is right is not 
  always what is expedient, and vice versa--Harry learns that in every 
  single book so far.  

  Keep the thoughtful posts coming.  The discussions they prompt have 
  been quite insightful!

  Ebony AKA AngieJ


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From robusdin at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 10 23:21:31 2000
From: robusdin at hotmail.com (Rob Usdin)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:21:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: D&D Anyone?
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCELACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <OE45iHxzr901u2tIDjo0000363b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1301

>>do you prefer RPG's in person or online?<<

I much prefer them in person - I think it adds to the realism. Online, just typing, you are limited just as you are in any online thing I like to see people's expressions, tone of voice, and such.  It adds so much more to the experience.  Not to mention that we use minitatures to "plan out" things that will happen, and show the ways htings are positioned in combat and such.  We use a Dry erase transparent plexiglass, and we actually draw a room, or a location, so that we can see more or less where we are or how things can play out.

--*Rob



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Mon Sep 11 00:26:59 2000
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:26:59 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Sacred Power in your name
Message-ID: <70.2e34ff8.26ed80d3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1302

Hi all!

In a message dated 9/9/2000 3:41:47 AM CST, vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk 
writes:

<< As to why 'Harry' might have been chosen. Rowling does appear to enjoy
 the sounds of names. . Both Harry & Potter strike me as very English and
 down-to-earth names with a pleasant sound.
  >>

There is a former President of the R3 Society, who happens to have also been 
published, named Jeremy Potter.  Silly coincidence, I know.. but considering 
all the other WOR/R3 references in the books, well, it's a fun theory to hold 
that JKR at least considered that when naming her hero! <g>

Ok, ok, I admitted it was silly - please don't throw things! <g>

Love & Light,
*E*l*i*z*a*b*e*t*h*



From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 11 01:10:21 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:10:21 -0000
Subject: Changing Email Address -- Egroups (Technical Question)
In-Reply-To: <39BBB224.82240C13@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8phbdt+mnam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1303

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <
linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Does anyone know if there are serious consequences if I (as this
group's
> "owner" & co-moderator) change my primary email address?  


As a moderator. you can change the status of any other email address
on the list, including making them a moderator.  However, having just 
checked a private group I created, it appears that even a listowner 
cannot designate another member as listowner; only as a fully 
privileged moderator.  I am not sure if that is totally adequate. 

To designate an alternate address as a listowner probably requires
an Egroups technical intervention.

-Brooks





From kathleen at carr.org  Mon Sep 11 00:50:29 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:50:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will and Time travel
Message-ID: <200009110142.e8B1g4v08915@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1304

>> What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of his own
>> destiny;

This is an interesting comment in light of something I have been thinking 
about regarding the time travel in Book 3.  I was watching "Early Edition" the 
other day and I was struck by the fact that there seem to be two approaches to 
time travel:  the "one person can make a difference" approach shown through 
Early Edition, and Quantum Leap, and then what I call the "Prime Directive 
approach" (i.e. we can't change the past, because it will have all kinds of 
unwanted repurcussions, and if we do meddle with the past, it should only be 
to change the damage we have done by meddling with it in the first place.  
This second one seems to be pretty common, though the only example I can think 
of right away is "Back to the Future".  When I first started thinking about 
this, I felt that PoA falls into the first camp, because obviously H&H are 
setting out to change the previous course of events.  (thus fitting in with 
what has been said about free will and our actions defining us).  BUT both 
Hermione and Dumbledore realize the repurcussions of this course of action and 
try to minimize its effect.  So maybe it's really somewhere in between.

Just as an aside, I remain astounded by JKR's use of time travel in PoA, which 
is still my favorite HP book, although I loved the other three.  I have read 
or listened to PoA at least 15 or 16 times, and the scene with the Patronus at 
the lake STILL give me chills.


Kathy




From kathleen at carr.org  Mon Sep 11 00:56:45 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:56:45 -0400
Subject: Kathy's H/H Evidence Request
Message-ID: <200009110148.e8B1mPv09814@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1305

>Kathy--I wasn't ignoring your request; it's just that I've been
>behind with the posts and my own e-mails for the past 4-5 days.  I
>sent my observations to Penny just to make sure that I wasn't being
>redundant.  I think she knows just about every shred of H/H evidence
>in existence.  :)  If I find out that this hasn't been brought up,
>I'll post it.
>
>Ebony AKA AngieJ


Ebony:

Well, ok...but I am still dying of curiosity here!

Kathy




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 01:48:26 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:48:26 -0000
Subject: (Contest Entry) Was Dumbledore...
In-Reply-To: <39BB9AB2.F34A704B@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8phdla+32bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1306


> Did anyone else from this group enter the contest (Alicia/Sue, 
Scott,
> 

Yes, actually I am finalizing my entry now and I will mail it 
tomorrow....but sorry to say I wont share it w/ you.

Scott




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep 11 05:08:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 05:08:05 -0000
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
In-Reply-To: <70.2e34ff8.26ed80d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8phpbl+uvsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1307

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:

> considering all the other WOR/R3 references in the books

My brain must be sound asleep: I can't think at all what is 
WOR and R3????




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 07:57:29 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:57:29 +1000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <OE15M9B4RThriq1KIvQ00003cc2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1308




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 11 15:13:31 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:13:31 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <200009110142.e8B1g4v08915@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8pisqr+bhtf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1309

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan 
<kathleen at c...> wrote:

> .... and then what I call the "Prime 
Directive 
> approach" (i.e. we can't change the past, because it will have all 
kinds of 
> unwanted repurcussions, and if we do meddle with the past, it
should 
only be 
> to change the damage we have done by meddling with it in the first 
place.  
> This second one seems to be pretty common, though the only example
I 
can think 
> of right away is "Back to the Future".  

The _Superman_ comics actually took a slightly different approach
than 
that - ANY attempt to alter history is foredoomed, as the universe 
itself will intervene in some way to keep you from making a real 
change; if you come from the future, 'history' is predestined.  

(Probably first expressed in a classic Superboy story where Superboy 
decides to try to prevent the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, only 
to be frozen in place by a device wielded by Lex Luthor, who has gone 
into hiding in the past - coincidentally in Washington DC in the 
spring of 1865.  When Superboy shows up, Luthor thinks that Superboy 
is after him, and only after witnessing Lincoln being carried from 
Ford's Theater does he realize that there was perhaps another 
explanation for Superboy's presence in that time, and is stricken
with  
a fit of conscience (this is the 1950's-written teenage Lex Luthor).
This approach actually seems to be used in the majority of the _Star 
Trek_ writings; time travel by any means other than "the Guardian of 
Forever" puts you in a past that no matter what you do, it is in fact 
what did happen and history has already recorded it.  _Star Trek: 
First Contact_ is less clear on whether they were sticking with the 
Predestination rule they seem to have had in Trek Classic.

There is also Niven's hypothesis - If a time machine can be created 
in a universe, and a traveller to the past can change history, then a 
time machine will NOT be created in that universe.  The reason for 
this is that at some point a time traveller will alter the past in 
such a way that the time machine is never invented, at which point 
there is no further push to change the past, so the universe reaches
a 
path of stability and stays on that - because a change to allow a
time 
machine to be invented can no longer be made, as there is no further 
possibility of a time traveller to make it!

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 11 15:14:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:14:26 -0000
Subject: The Sacred Power in your name
In-Reply-To: <8phpbl+uvsa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pissi+5mi3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1310

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> 
> > considering all the other WOR/R3 references in the books
> 
> My brain must be sound asleep: I can't think at all what is 
> WOR and R3????

I bet it is War of the Roses and Richard III....




From farrago at msn.com  Mon Sep 11 17:04:29 2000
From: farrago at msn.com (Steve Wilson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:04:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Free Will and Time travel
References: <8pisqr+bhtf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007701c01c12$594e0bd0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>

No: HPFGUIDX 1311

There is another interesting fictional time travel theory - that espoused by
Dean R. Koontz in his book "Lightning": time travel is only possible going
to the future, not going to the past.  Thus any changes that you make don't
affect your time line, only the future timelines.






From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Sep 11 18:55:08 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:55:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore
References: <39BB9AB2.F34A704B@hic.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c01c21$d0e15260$c28e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1312


But, I don't
> think any of us are holding him to "godlike standards."  And, when
> you're dealing with JKR's fiction (where's she known to pull all sorts
> of surprising plot twists on her readers) -- I don't know that distrust
> isn't a bit deserved (rather than the "mark of an immature mind").

OK, maybe that bit was a bit strong.  :)  But I don't think he will be
revealed as evil.  Yes, I know there have been twists involving good
characters turning bad (Quirrell, Moody), but neither was a long-standing
character like Dumbledore.  I don't think he'll go over to Voldemort, it
would just be completely wrong.  He might, however, be removed from the
action at a really inconvenient time, or go the Crouch Sr. route and become
as bad as Voldemort in trying to fight him.

Jinx




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 19:20:09 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:20:09 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <007701c01c12$594e0bd0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>
Message-ID: <8pjb99+h7lr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1313

Actually, this isn't fiction: as far as contemporary physics knows 
now, time travel to the future but not back is definitely possible.  
The only limitation to this type of time travel is its current 
technological impossibility.  But it is known that if you travel 
close enough to the speed of light, you could go as far into the 
future as you want; there is just no proven way of returning to your 
present.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Wilson" <farrago at m...> wrote:
> There is another interesting fictional time travel theory - that 
espoused by
> Dean R. Koontz in his book "Lightning": time travel is only 
possible going
> to the future, not going to the past.  Thus any changes that you 
make don't
> affect your time line, only the future timelines.




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Sep 11 19:19:18 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:19:18 +0100
Subject: LOTR, Snape, Dumbledore, & Kidlit deaths
References: <8pg9t8+8aln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c01c26$ac24c600$c28e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1314


> As yet another HP addict who has not read LOTR, let me add that all
> the discussion of parallels between the two series is flying clear
> over my head.  I read the Hobbit in High School and enjoyed it.  Went
> to read one of the others and felt as if someone had picked me up and
> dropped me in darkest Africa, I was so lost.  Said book is now unread
> in a box in my spare room closet.  Perhaps I'll give it another go
> now, since its virtues are being extolled with such vehemence here.

LOTR's nothing like the Hobbit, I must admit.  The Hobbit is a children's
adventure story.  LOTR is an epic fantasy novel for adults, and obsessive
ones at that.

> As for Snape and Dumbledore.  I think neither is as good or as bad as
> we have been lead to believe. Snape is inexplicably cruel to students
> not in Slytherin, as we all know.  I'd love to know why. Jealousy out
> of being stuck in Slytherin house himself, maybe?

No, he seems too nice to the Slytherins for that.  And I don't think he's
too resentful at being in Slytherin either.  Would he really have wanted to
be Head of a House he despised?  And if you're sorted into the right house,
I don't think you're really resentful about it.  I think Snape's the
ultimate Slytherin, and has never really regretted being Sorted there.

Being thwarted at
> every turn by others when something he desires comes up? I don't
> know.

Maybe.  Filch hated students because he couldn't do magic and was envious.
I think Snape's envious of them too.  Maybe because they're young and
carefree, while he's so weighed down by his sense of duty and responsibility
and his fear of looking silly, he can't let himself go.  This would explain
why the Gryffindors in particular come in for so much grief - as the courage
house, they're the most daring and reckless ones, are not afraid of
risk-taking and possible humiliation, and appear to be the most up for a
good party. :)  In other words, they're everything Snape isn't.  Which is
why he hates them.

I like the
> ambiguities floating around and the shades of grey in the
> background.  They add dimensions and facets to the series.

Oh absolutely, it makes them so much more human!  And therefore likeable, or
at least, interesting.  I really can't imagine Sauron or Darth Vader
generating as much discussion as Snape does...

Jinx




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Sep 11 19:24:29 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 11 Sep 2000 12:24:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Free Will and Time travel
Message-ID: <20000911192429.4266.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1315

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000911/e83e5bf8/attachment.ksh>

From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Sep 11 19:29:55 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:29:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good (Far too long)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000909060212.013b6d78@popmail.dircon.co.uk> <004801c01b10$97ed1e60$3e8f7ed4@johnmitt> <007801c01b40$6011a580$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <008001c01c26$ad5a86e0$c28e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1316


> Could this also be the reason for Snape's being "So" bad?  He is seen as
over the top "baddie" professor?  It's an interesting thought, and I am very
thankful for you Jinx for bringing it up!  Gives me something to think
about.

Partly.  But some of Snape's behaviour really is pretty evil, even so.

Jinx




From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 19:28:43 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:28:43 -0000
Subject: JKR's originality
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGELACBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pjbpb+dmd7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1317

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
"If JKR has borrowed certain elements from previous fantasy fiction, 
I will say that she has taken those elements and combined them in a 
way that no  other author has ever done before.  There's never been a 
phenomenon like the Harry Potter books - they appeal to all ages, all 
nationalities, all types of kids and adults.  It's like the 
difference between a good cook and a bad  cook.  They can take the 
exact same ingredients and produce a masterpiece or  a garbage-
disposal disaster."

I like the good cook/bad cook analogy.  Tolkien himself borrowed 
mythic elements from all over for The Lord of the Rings. 
Shakespeare used old stories for much of his work. JKR has taken 
whatever elements she used and combined them brilliantly into 
wonderfully entertaining stories that have real themes.

Every one of us is a bundle of influences and cultural heritage. It's 
what we do with it that makes us original or not.

I see very little influence of fantasy fiction in JKR's work.  The 
parallels with Tolkien are inevitable: at their elemental levels, JKR 
and JRRT are talking about good versus evil; the evolution of a hero; 
and the price that heroes pay. They have done it each in a wonderful 
way that makes them transcend genre.





From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 11 19:31:22 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:31:22 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <20000911192429.4266.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8pjbua+34bb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1318

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> On Mon, 11 September 2000, "Steve Bates" wrote:
> 
> ....  Once he came out, it was the future - 30 seconds into the 
future.  Of course, he was amazed at how different everything had 
become...


Reminds me of the 1 paragraph SF story, I do not remember by who, 
which went something like this:

Professor Smith had been working on his time machine for many years.
"And I have solved it", he told his neice one afternoon, "It is
ready.  When I press this button, time will begin to flow backwards 
flow to begin will time, button this press I when.  Ready it is."  
Afternoon one neice his told he, "It solved have I and." Years many 
for machine time his on working been had Smith Professor.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 08:44:50 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:44:50 +0200
Subject: Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
References: <OE15M9B4RThriq1KIvQ00003cc2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c01c95$b9717820$9171023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1319

INTRODUCTORY NOTES
(1) Apologies in advance: my English spell-checker's on the blink!  My
spelling's always been creative, so brace yourself.
(2) For Tomorrow: Character Sketch of Resident Non-Corporeal Persons,
Excepting Pictures, Intelligent Animals, and Semi-animate Suites of Armor.
(A.k.a., "Ghosts & Peeves")

* * * * * * * * * *

PLACE IN THE PLOT
This chapter closes the events of the Quidditch World Cup (QWC) Final and
gets the plot moving back toward Hogwarts.  It also introduces us to four
realities that will play important roles in the rest of the book: Rita's
journalism, the twins' secret, Ron's frustration, and expantions in the
social life of Hogwarts 4th years.

OUTLINE
The chapter covers the final week of the Hogwarts summer holidays, spent at
the Burrow.

We begin with the trip home from the QWC, in a scene of general panic.  Back
at the Burrow, we find that Mrs. Weasley has read a sensationalized account
of the incidents at the QWC and is in an agony of fear (for everyone) and
conscience pangs (for brow beating Fred and George before they left).  Mr.
Weasley breaks off his holiday to help the MOM work through the aftermath of
Rita's article; Percy follows suite.  Meanwhile, Harry tells Ron and
Hermione about his forehead and dream. They are worried, and wonder why they
haven't received any news from Sirius.

Shfting to the final days of the summer holidays, JKR treats us to a glimpse
of home life at the Burrow.  Percy is exceeding even his normal pomposity
quotient.  The twins, caught at some mysterious work presumably connected to
the Weasleys'Wizard Weases, use Mrs. Weasley's lingering bad conscience to
good effect.  (Actually, the twins have realized that Bagmann has given them
fake gold and are probably writing a first letter of protest.)  At the end
of the chapter, Mrs. Weasley brings Ron and Harry dress robes, which they
will need for the first time this year.  Ron is dismayed at Mrs. Weasley's
secondhand purchase, threatens to go "starkers", and complains bitterly
about being poor.

COMMENTS & QUESTIONS
In this chapter, JKR snaps a second chance to dispell fans' rumours that
Harry is stingy: facing Ron's outburst, she writes, "Harry looked away. He
would willingly have split all the money in his Gringotts with the Weasleys,
but he knew they would never take it."  Some people have insinuated that
she's laying it on a little thick. I would point out that this statement
gives a background to his decision to give his thousand galleons to the
twins at the end of the story.

About Rita Skeeter: (1) You'd have to be nuts to say JKR's own interactions
with the press didn't flesh her out a little.  Even IF JKR has stated in
several interviews that Skeeter wasn't conceived as a vendetta.  (2) Also:
Rita is apparently a late addition to the book.  JKR had meant to employ a
cousin of the Weasley sibs as the book's bad gal and as a source of leaks
from Hogwarts.  For some reason, this lead to plot problems so serious that
JKR exised the cousin, invented Rita, and rewrote the book.  So the rewrite
probably starts here.

Molly (Mrs. Weasley) is quite a lady.  First she's harsh, then she's bear
hugging.  She and Aurthur don't seem passionate (notwithstanding their
erstwhile feats of procreation), but when Percy criticizes Dad, Molly goes
ballistic.  She can be very sensitive, but she tosses Ron an outfit
practically designed to torture fourteen-year-olds--without so much as a
warning.  Very interesting.  Don't wizards have anything for menopause?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 11 19:54:17 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:54:17 -0700
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <8pjb99+h7lr@eGroups.com>
References: <007701c01c12$594e0bd0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000911124805.021a7430@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1320

At 07:20 PM 9/11/00 +0000, Steve Bates wrote:
>But it is known that if you travel
>close enough to the speed of light, you could go as far into the
>future as you want; there is just no proven way of returning to your
>present.

All the theoretical research by Black Hole/Space-Time Warp expert
Kip Thorne seems to indicate that while backward time travel is
*theoretically* possible -- by making a four-dimensional tunnel thru space-time
(a "wormhole") and then using near-lightspeed accelertion to send one mouth
of the tunnel into the distant future -- any attempt to use this "time tunnell"
will always cause it to self-distruct and prevent the journey into the
past.



                                                 -- Dave




From warmsley at btinternet.com  Mon Sep 11 17:55:10 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:55:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will and Time travel
Message-ID: <01c01c19$6d626920$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1321

>>> What Dumbledore must teach Harry is that he is the agent of
his own
>>> destiny;
>
>This is an interesting comment in light of something I have
been thinking
>about regarding the time travel in Book 3.  I was watching
"Early Edition" the
>other day and I was struck by the fact that there seem to be
two approaches to
>time travel:  the "one person can make a difference" approach
shown through
>Early Edition, and Quantum Leap, and then what I call the
"Prime Directive
>approach" (i.e. we can't change the past, because it will have
all kinds of
>unwanted repurcussions, and if we do meddle with the past, it
should only be
>to change the damage we have done by meddling with it in the
first place.
>This second one seems to be pretty common, though the only
example I can think
>of right away is "Back to the Future".  When I first started
thinking about
>this, I felt that PoA falls into the first camp, because
obviously H&H are
>setting out to change the previous course of events.  (thus
fitting in with
>what has been said about free will and our actions defining
us).  BUT both
>Hermione and Dumbledore realize the repurcussions of this
course of action and
>try to minimize its effect.  So maybe it's really somewhere in
between.
>

I think JKRs use of time travel is the most coherent I've ever
seen in fiction; none of this parallel universe malarkey; they
either go back in time or they don't, and the things that happen
to them in the past as a result of them going back in the future
actually do happen - i.e., the past is secure, so if someone
were to go back and kill Harry whilst he was a baby they'd fail.


BUT! On the other hand, that has some interesting repercussions
for "free will" - certainly, there is predestination in JKR's
world (remember, Divination, even if it never does turn out as
you expect) - and this sort of time travel means it's hard to
escape from your destiny... if they were to use the Time Turner
to go a couple of years into the future and find out what
happens with Voldemort, then... hmm...

Perhaps it's like Schrodinger's Cat - undecided till observed.


>> Did anyone else from this group enter the contest
(Alicia/Sue,
>>Scott, Jeremy


Nope. US residents only. :( Katie?

Jeremy






From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Mon Sep 11 20:43:43 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:43:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will and Time travel
References: <200009110142.e8B1g4v08915@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <012601c01c31$c7277140$c28e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1322


 I was struck by the fact that there seem to be two approaches to
> time travel:  the "one person can make a difference" approach shown
through
> Early Edition, and Quantum Leap, and then what I call the "Prime Directive
> approach" (i.e. we can't change the past, because it will have all kinds
of
> unwanted repurcussions, and if we do meddle with the past, it should only
be
> to change the damage we have done by meddling with it in the first place.
> This second one seems to be pretty common, though the only example I can
think
> of right away is "Back to the Future".  When I first started thinking
about
> this, I felt that PoA falls into the first camp, because obviously H&H are
> setting out to change the previous course of events.  (thus fitting in
with
> what has been said about free will and our actions defining us).  BUT both
> Hermione and Dumbledore realize the repurcussions of this course of action
and
> try to minimize its effect.  So maybe it's really somewhere in between.

Actually, I think HP falls more into the second category.  Remember
Hermione's insistence that she and Harry can't change time - they can only
do what really did happen in their past reality.  Thus they can steal
Buckbeak and rescue Sirius, because that happened before they travelled
back.  Also Harry can produce that Patronus because his past self had
already seen it happen.  BUT they can't take back the Invisibility Cloak and
stop Snape going to the Shrieking Shack because they've seen him go there
already and preventing it would screw time up.

Are you still with me?

Jinx




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 20:56:30 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:56:30 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <01c01c19$6d626920$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <8pjgtu+3meu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1323

<<if they were to use the Time Turner
> to go a couple of years into the future and find out what
> happens with Voldemort, then... hmm...
> 
> Perhaps it's like Schrodinger's Cat - undecided till observed.>>

I wrote an essay last year in which I used Schrodinger's Cat as a 
starting point for discussing why fate and free will are not mutually 
exclusive.
About using the Time Turner to go into the future, though, do we even 
know that's possible?  Maybe it can only go into the past, and 
despite the evidence back at Yahoo that someone took a Time Turner 
back to 1969 to mess with us, it might have a limited range into the 
past at that (maybe only a couple days or so).   I wonder if the Time 
Turner is going to pop up again or if it's going to be specific to 
one book like the Mirror of Erised.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 21:06:20 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:06:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
References: <OE15M9B4RThriq1KIvQ00003cc2@hotmail.com> <001a01c01c95$b9717820$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <008201c01c34$26f5e460$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1324

Mike said alot of things that I agree with, and the one in particular that I just did not get about this chapter is the dress robe.  She's a mom, right?  Isn't there a way, if she can use her wand to cook with, she could've "spruced" up the second robe to look better?  (At least anti-lace it so it didn't look so frayed like when Ron did it?)

My own mother has bought clothes for me, though, that I absolutely hate, and that's at 30~so I guess it's a parent thing?

Molly (Mrs. Weasley) is quite a lady.  First she's harsh, then she's bear
hugging.  She and Aurthur don't seem passionate (notwithstanding their
erstwhile feats of procreation), but when Percy criticizes Dad, Molly goes
ballistic.  She can be very sensitive, but she tosses Ron an outfit
practically designed to torture fourteen-year-olds--without so much as a
warning.  Very interesting.  Don't wizards have anything for menopause?

:)
Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 21:12:56 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:12:56 -0400
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat 
References: <8pjgtu+3meu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009001c01c35$0fba83e0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1325

Schrodinger's Cat 

Could you explain what this is?

Thanks!

Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep 11 22:24:06 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:24:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schrodinger's Cat
Message-ID: <v02140b0db5e30bad5456@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1326

>
>Schrodinger's Cat
>
>Could you explain what this is?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Dee
>
Schrodinger's Cat is an illustration used to illustrate principles in
quantum mechanics.  I would attemtp to explain it but I'd probably end up
talking about wavefunctions and orbital mechanics.

Basically, at the subatomic level, the Uncertainty Principle says that you
can never know everything about a particle with complete accuracy, because
the act of observation alters the state of the particle.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Sep 11 21:31:00 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:31:00 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore/Goats and Cars (OT)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000911213100.007077d0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1327

Jinx wrote [on Dumbledore]:

OK, maybe that bit was a bit strong.  :)  But I don't think he will be
revealed as evil.  Yes, I know there have been twists involving good
characters turning bad (Quirrell, Moody), but neither was a long-standing
character like Dumbledore.  I don't think he'll go over to Voldemort, it
would just be completely wrong.  He might, however, be removed from the
action at a really inconvenient time, or go the Crouch Sr. route and become
as bad as Voldemort in trying to fight him."

****
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I agree with most of that, but then
that was the thrust of my original point about Dumbledore: not that he might
"go over to Voldemort" - which just reinforces the bizarre idea that
Voldemort has the monopoly on 'badness' - but that he might not turn out to
be such a paragon of virtue.  

One slight correction: Moody didn't turn bad; it was Crouch junior
masquerading as Moody.  

________________

Aberforth's Goat wrote [before comparing JKR with JRRT]:

"(BTW, Neil: I've noticed that people who think they're cars are often a little
book-challenged.  Besides, you yourself have also admitted to not liking
Phynigan's Whack [hey MSN, is that better??], which proves a fundamental
aesthetic deficit.)"

This from a theologian who poses as a goat?  

But, you are correct, Mike -  my preferred reading is "The Highway Code",
"The Road Atlas of Great Britain" and "40 Ways to Entertain the Kids on Long
Car Journeys".   

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 11 21:37:05 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:37:05 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <009001c01c35$0fba83e0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pjja1+gkso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1328

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Schrodinger's Cat 
> 
> Could you explain what this is?
> 
> Thanks!


You need to hire a good Quantum mechanic for that.

Seriously, Schrodinger proposed this thought experiment in an attempt 
to explain how Quantum phenomena are statistical in nature and to 
demonstrate one implication of uncertainty.

The basic postulate is you have a box, in which is a single atom of a 
radioactive isotope, with a half-life of exactly one hour.  This
means 
that there is a 50-50 chance that the particle will decay within that 
one hour.  You surround the particle with a perfect detector such
that 
if it decays, that fact will be detected.  You then make the detector 
trip a switch if the decay is detected, which will open a valve that 
will release cyanide into the box.  

You put a cat in the box.

Assuming you cannot hear or feel the cat moving around, meowing, or
in 
any other way detect the state of the cat, and that you have no 
external indicator as to whether the detector was activated or 
not, you wait an hour and then open the box.  Did the particle decay 
or did it not?  Did the cat die or did it not?  The answer is that it 
is impossible to know until you open the box.  Is the cat alive or 
dead?  It is both at the same time, because both are states of the 
universe that co-exist *until an observation is made*.   This is 
called "superimposed states".  When you make an observation, the 
superimposed states collapse leaving only one result as the 
"winner".  At the mathematical descriptions of elementary particles 
level the universe really does seem to work that way.  The thought 
experiment is an attempt to show an effect at a macroscopic level of
a 
quantum mechanics reality:  at the quantum level the universe
operates 
by blind statistics.

(The experiment as described is technically impossible because at the 
time it was invented, there was no way to put in a single radioactive 
atom, although there is now; and there will probably never be a 
perfect detector).

-Brooks




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 21:53:52 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:53:52 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <8pjja1+gkso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pjk9g+h5ou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1329

Wow, Brooks, that was an excellent explanation.  I was going to post 
the original description of the experiment according to Schrodinger, 
and I still am, but you pretty much covered everything:

"One can even set up quite ridiculous cases.  A cat is penned up in a 
steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must 
be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger 
counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that 
perhaps in the course of one hour one of the atoms decays, but also, 
with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube 
discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a 
small flask of hydrocyanic acid.  If one has left this entire system 
to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if 
meanwhile no atom has decayed.  The first atomic decay would have 
poisoned it.  The Psi function for the entire system would express 
this by having in it the living and the dead cat (pardon the 
expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts."




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 22:03:54 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:03:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schrodinger's Cat
References: <v02140b0db5e30bad5456@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <00e201c01c3c$2fbb6680$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1330

Sorta like the psychology principle that people watched act differently, eh?

On last question, OT, and I will leave it alone.  Is this in anyway related to that Cat that Ben Holiday met up with in his adventure of being "NOT" king of Landover?  (In a sequel of the series that started with MAGIC KINGDOM FOR SALE, SOLD")    

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: summers.65 at osu.edu 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Schrodinger's Cat



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  >
  >Schrodinger's Cat
  >
  >Could you explain what this is?
  >
  >Thanks!
  >
  >Dee
  >
  Schrodinger's Cat is an illustration used to illustrate principles in
  quantum mechanics.  I would attemtp to explain it but I'd probably end up
  talking about wavefunctions and orbital mechanics.

  Basically, at the subatomic level, the Uncertainty Principle says that you
  can never know everything about a particle with complete accuracy, because
  the act of observation alters the state of the particle.

  Lori


  **********************************************************
  Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

          I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

  Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
  Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
  Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                                 "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
  ***********************************************************



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 22:06:04 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:06:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schrodinger's Cat
References: <8pjja1+gkso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c01c3c$7d534ac0$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1331

Thanks Brooks.  I now recall hearing something about that experiment, but not certain where.

It sounds, Lori, though that it is part and particle (LOL) to POU?  Winks.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brooks R 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 5:37 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schrodinger's Cat



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > Schrodinger's Cat 
  > 
  > Could you explain what this is?
  > 
  > Thanks!


  You need to hire a good Quantum mechanic for that.

  Seriously, Schrodinger proposed this thought experiment in an attempt 
  to explain how Quantum phenomena are statistical in nature and to 
  demonstrate one implication of uncertainty.

  The basic postulate is you have a box, in which is a single atom of a 
  radioactive isotope, with a half-life of exactly one hour.  This
  means 
  that there is a 50-50 chance that the particle will decay within that 
  one hour.  You surround the particle with a perfect detector such
  that 
  if it decays, that fact will be detected.  You then make the detector 
  trip a switch if the decay is detected, which will open a valve that 
  will release cyanide into the box.  

  You put a cat in the box.

  Assuming you cannot hear or feel the cat moving around, meowing, or
  in 
  any other way detect the state of the cat, and that you have no 
  external indicator as to whether the detector was activated or 
  not, you wait an hour and then open the box.  Did the particle decay 
  or did it not?  Did the cat die or did it not?  The answer is that it 
  is impossible to know until you open the box.  Is the cat alive or 
  dead?  It is both at the same time, because both are states of the 
  universe that co-exist *until an observation is made*.   This is 
  called "superimposed states".  When you make an observation, the 
  superimposed states collapse leaving only one result as the 
  "winner".  At the mathematical descriptions of elementary particles 
  level the universe really does seem to work that way.  The thought 
  experiment is an attempt to show an effect at a macroscopic level of
  a 
  quantum mechanics reality:  at the quantum level the universe
  operates 
  by blind statistics.

  (The experiment as described is technically impossible because at the 
  time it was invented, there was no way to put in a single radioactive 
  atom, although there is now; and there will probably never be a 
  perfect detector).

  -Brooks


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep 11 23:01:26 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:01:26 -0700
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <8pjja1+gkso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEMECBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1332

LOL!  Has anyone here ever read Isaac Asimov's short story, entitled "The
Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline"?  It's pretty funny.

Asimov wrote it when he was a graduate student, as a joke on the convoluted
language and theories of quantum science.  In it, the experimenter proved
that a certain compound had (more or less) gained the ability to read the
mind of the experimenter, so to speak, and to dissolve, or not to dissolve,
depending on whether the experimenter REALLY planned to add water to it, or
was just standing over the beaker with a glass of water waiting for the
chemical to dissolve on its own.  This thread on Heisenberg and Schrodinger
reminds me of it.  Here's a short synopsis:

Thiotimoline is a crystal with the unique property that it dissolves just
before you add water to it. Isaac Asimov invented Thiotimoline for his first
published short story, but only discovered its true power years later when
defending his doctoral thesis. A stony-faced examiner suddenly asked him to
explain the nature of thiotimoline. Asimov nearly panicked trying to decide
whether the examiner understood that thiotimoline was a joke. As you
probably know, Asimov did get his Ph.D.







From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Sep 11 22:58:09 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:58:09 +0100
Subject: Chapter 10 and that cat
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEDECIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1333

"Meanwhile, Harry tells Ron and Hermione about his forehead and dream. They
are worried, and wonder why they haven't received any news from Sirius."

This misses the important point that Harry has learnt a lot about Ron and
Hermione. The predictions he makes of how they would react if he told them
about his scar are proved to be correct.

If only he had applied this understanding later in the book then his fight
with Ron would have been solved very quickly.

"Schrodinger's Cat - Could you explain what this is?"

I could, but brooks got in with an explanation first. I will just say that
it is a stupid area of mathematics and gets even more complicated when you
try to extend the analogy. You can then get a dead cat being brought back to
life and vice versa!

It also misses the Terry Pratchett answer (I cannot remember exactly which
book it is), in which it is pointed out that the cat may just be a little
annoyed at being kept in the box for so long.
Or another possible answer being that the cat would be dead as it ran out of
air a long time ago.

Simon

--
Last Movie Seen:  Stuart Little
Current Book:     The Monster Book of Comic Fantasy
Current CD:       Automatic for the People by REM
Current HP Quote: "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 11 23:05:18 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:05:18 -0700
Subject: Dumbledore, goats, and government vouchers to go to Hogwarts? :)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000911213100.007077d0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000911154252.01f09ae0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1334

At 10:31 PM 9/11/00 +0100, Neil Ward wrote:
>OK, maybe that bit was a bit strong.  :)  But I don't think he will be
>revealed as evil.  Yes, I know there have been twists involving good
>characters turning bad (Quirrell, Moody), but neither was a long-standing
>character like Dumbledore.

I agree... JKR throws us surprises within a single book, but she wouldn't
have someone established over several books turn out to be totally different.

>He might, however, be removed from the action at a really inconvenient time...

This is just wild speculation of course, but I'm wondering if Dumbledore
will get sacked in Book 5 ( and we'll say hello to Headmaster Malfoy!! :O )...

>... or go the Crouch Sr. route and become as bad as Voldemort in trying to 
>fight him."

No, he's too wise to let himself get corrupted...

>One slight correction: Moody didn't turn bad; it was Crouch junior
>masquerading as Moody.

BTW, has anyone else seen that kids magazine that talked about
"Mad-Eye Moony (sic.)"?  Grrrrr....

On the subject of goats, I notice that Dumbledore talked about his
brother who hexed goats, and now the recent (Sun., August 27, 2000)
editorial in the San Jose Mercury News by Mark Purdy that goes
against school vouchers because they could subsidize "witch
schools" that teach kids to sacrifice goats.  Understandably
real-life witches are angered by the misrepresentation and I
feel the same way, but I wonder if his remarks were meant as a
tongue-in-cheek though badly worded nod to JKR...



                                                 -- Dave




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 23:16:00 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:16:00 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat (getting way OT now)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEDECIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8pjp3g+ajov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1335

<<> It also misses the Terry Pratchett answer (I cannot remember 
exactly which
> book it is), in which it is pointed out that the cat may just be a 
little
> annoyed at being kept in the box for so long.
> Or another possible answer being that the cat would be dead as it 
ran out of
> air a long time ago.>>

I like Douglas Adams's take on the whole thing: simply get a psychic 
to figure out of the cat is alive or not by reading its mind.  It 
would probably be very amusing to set up the experiment with 
Professor Trelawney's involvement and have her try to *predict* 
whether the cat will be alive or not when the box is opened.




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 11 23:43:39 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:43:39 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schrodinger's Cat
Message-ID: <F128Ki3s1wsXZZTHfyQ0000f206@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1336

great explination - but what about the cat?


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at hotmail.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schrodinger's Cat
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:53:52 -0000

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Sep 12 01:35:50 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:35:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Free Will and Time travel
Message-ID: <200009120139.e8C1dwv01976@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1337

>The _Superman_ comics actually took a slightly different approach
>than
>that - ANY attempt to alter history is foredoomed, as the universe
>itself will intervene in some way to keep you from making a real
>change; if you come from the future, 'history' is predestined.


Actually now that I think about it, Harry and Hermione weren't really changing 
the past, because everything happened the way it did while it was happening.  
(OKay, that didn't make any sense but if you think real hard I think you will 
get what I am saying.  Maybe. (:  )

>The reason for
>this is that at some point a time traveller will alter the past in
>such a way that the time machine is never invented, at which point
>there is no further push to change the past, so the universe reaches
>a
>path of stability and stays on that - because a change to allow a
>time
>machine to be invented can no longer be made, as there is no further
>possibility of a time traveller to make it!


Whoa.  You're blowing my mind here Brooks...


Kathy, wandering off to contemplate the mysteries of time travel




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 12 02:07:37 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:07:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OMG!  I want it! I want it!
References: <008601c01b40$a4d8c360$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39BD8FE9.E44D42B1@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1338



Denise wrote:

> http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/39786105
>
> I am in love?  Anyone interested in getting me an early Christmas present, or a late Birthday?

do NOT buy this in the auction unless you live outside the US and are worried about buying via
Warner Bros. Either call a local WB store, visit one, or call the NYC Flagship Store (57th & 5th
avenue) and buy it from them. I saw it this weekend, it was, I think, 30$. Very cool but not worth
paying more than that for it from an auction!




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 12 02:09:04 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:09:04 -0000
Subject: .... and that cat
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEDECIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8pk380+bal9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1339

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" <
simon.branford at h...> wrote:

> Or another possible answer being that the cat would be dead as it
ran out of
> air a long time ago.

Actually there was a science fiction story in the "Probability Zero" 
category of _Analog_ a few years ago where a spaceship is damaged and 
has only slightly more than half the air needed to get home.  To save 
the day a large number of the crew are put in a Schrodinger box,
poison 
and all, with the 50/50 chance of them dying, with the box to be
opened 
upon return to Earth.  Naturally, when they get home, the box is
opened 
and it is discovered that the coin toss was successful and everybody 
survived, but because during the voyage there was only a 50/50 chance 
of them being alive at the end, they only consumed half as much 
air..... (no, it could not work that way in real life)....

As for annoying the cat, it could always be sedated before being put
in 
the box.

-BR





From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Sep 12 02:06:16 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:06:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Free Will and Time travel
Message-ID: <200009120210.e8C2AOv06494@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1340

>Actually, I think HP falls more into the second category.  Remember
>Hermione's insistence that she and Harry can't change time - they can only
>do what really did happen in their past reality.  Thus they can steal
>Buckbeak and rescue Sirius, because that happened before they travelled
>back.  Also Harry can produce that Patronus because his past self had
>already seen it happen.  BUT they can't take back the Invisibility Cloak and
>stop Snape going to the Shrieking Shack because they've seen him go there
>already and preventing it would screw time up.


Yes, but they don't KNOW that those things happened because they travelled 
back.  Remember, they think that Buckbeak was really executed and that they 
heard Hagrid crying out of misery.  They don't realize until they see it fron 
the other perspective that nothing changed.  (I feel like I am talking in 
circles--this is hard to contemplate!).  And the only reason they couldn't 
take back the INvisibility Cloak is because they didn't.  It's not that they 
COULDN'T, it just didn't happen that way because they didn't do it.  Because 
the two time-scenes are happening at the same time; we just see them from 
different perspectives at different points in the narrative.  They actually 
didn't CHANGE anything.  They just determined the course of events from the 
beginning.  Which was the point I was trying to make about free will (I 
think).  There was no time when they weren't there, because they were there 
both time.  OKay, I am getting really incoherent now!  All I can do is 
fervently quote Harry:
"This is the weirdest thing we have ever done!"

That about sums it up for me!

Kathy




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 02:06:47 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:06:47 -0000
Subject: What's in a name?  Dumbledore....
Message-ID: <8pk33n+hggu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1341

Ok, I know this subject is, well- dead, but anyway here is my take on 
it. 
 
NAME- Albus Dumbledore

Dumbledore...As we all know this means "Bumblebee". My personal take 
on this is that Dumbly, like a bee, is quiet and goes about his work 
diligently, except when anger is aroused, in which case we see his 
powerful "sting" and the full extent of his anger.

Albus...Ok that's not hard, it means white in latin.  White? The 
theories that I've heard previously usually consist of "well his 
beard is white...".  Now if I know JKR, (which BTW I don't) she had 
more up her sleeve that just the colour of his hair, but the question 
was what.

It was only when reading Penny's post about the characters being not 
just black and white, but gray (BTW many have posted this widely used 
analogy but it was Penny's post that made me think).  Ok 
so I was thinking maybe the "white" in Dumbly's name means that he 
really is completly good. Brilliant Huh? Nah!

Well anyhow this theory goes against my earliar post which was in 
agreement with Neil (the one about D. being bad) so that I now agree 
with Neil (the post about D. being good).  

Scott (who, after that last paragraph is wondering whether he agrees 
w/ Neil or not...)






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 02:17:09 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:17:09 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <200009120139.e8C1dwv01976@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8pk3n5+kio3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1342

-In all the books that I've read which involved time travel most left 
my brain totally muddled and with a million questions.  With that 
said I will now attempt to confuse all of you with my thoughts on the 
matter.

In PoA Harry n' Hermione couldn't have gone back and changed the 
course of events (i.e. stolen the cloak from Snape etc...) because 
then they would ALREADY of felt the reprecussions of it. I've read 
books where the people go back and change the past which then in turn 
(when they return to the present) changes the present. But JKR's 
ideas make much more sense because if you did it in the past then the 
changes would of taken effect then and not after you finished doing 
them because in reality you'd already be finished doing it before you 
knew you were going to start....

Sorry! As I read over this it makes very little sense.  Don't you 
wish you had a time turner so you never had to read this post!

Scott






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep 12 02:21:04 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:21:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schrodinger's Cat
References: <8pjja1+gkso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39BD9310.2EEA1A81@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1343



Brooks R wrote:.

>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> > Schrodinger's Cat
> >
> > Could you explain what this is?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> You need to hire a good Quantum mechanic for that.

To read good fictional treatments of the paradox of Schrodinger's cat, read:

"Schrodinger's Kitten" by George Alec Effinger (winner of Nebula Best
Novelette 1988)
 "At the Rialto" by Connie Willis (winner of Nebula Best Novelette 1989)
and
"Schrodinger's Cathouse" by Kij Johnson







From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Sep 12 02:23:33 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:23:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's jealousy and why Dumbledore is cool
Message-ID: <200009120227.e8C2Rgv08980@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1344

>Molly (Mrs. Weasley) is quite a lady.  First she's harsh, then she's bear
>hugging.


I know the comment has been made before about Mrs. Weasley becoming a 
mother-figure to Harry and how this probably won't help Ron's jealousy thing.  
But I was listening to the end of GoF again today (for like the 12th time--I 
really need to buy it and stop keeping out the library's copy!) and noticed 
that when Bill left to go to Mr. Weasley, he "clapped a hand on Harry's 
shoulder, kissed his mother on the cheek, pulled on his cloak, and strode 
quickly from the room."  Not even acknowledging his own brother!  Man if even 
his own family forgets him, maybe Ron has reason to be mad!


Anyway, another thing I always like about this scene is that Dumbledore 
remembers Winky.  (I mean, honestly, did YOU remember about Winky? I 
didn't--and it would have been very easy for him to forget about a lowly 
house-elf in all this.)  This proved to me that he couldn't go all evil.

Kathy

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan               (410) 386-4460 Ext. 628
Children's Services Supervisor         Fax: (410) 386-4466
Eldersburg Branch                      email: kathleen at ccpl.carr.org
Carroll County Public Library
Eldersburg, MD 21784


"'But why's she got to go to the library?'
'Because that's what Hermione does,' said Ron, shrugging. 'When in doubt, go to the library.'"
         -from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets by J.K. Rowling
                                 




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 12 02:38:25 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 02:38:25 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: .... and that cat
Message-ID: <F221OSQeSOzNCWbzwWJ00000517@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1345


ok I feel better now
storm

----Original Message Follows----

As for annoying the cat, it could always be sedated before being put
in
the box.

-BR



_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 12 03:23:05 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:23:05 -0000
Subject: Childhood Wizards
Message-ID: <8pk7ip+2mkj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1346

Hogwarts is obviously THE school for wizards, but only after they're 
eleven. What do wizard children (that is, children of wizarding 
families) do before then? Are there special wizarding 
primary/elementary schools for younger tots? They can't go to a 
Muggle school because wizard children are often using basic magic 
from a very young age (eg, Fred and George turned Ron's teddy bear 
into a giant spider... which, when thinking back to Transfiguration 
doesn't seem a very basic magic at all, given that turning a turtle 
into a teapot is fourth year [?] stuff). It is more or less implied 
that Hogwarts is the only school for wizard children in the UK, so 
before the eleventh year children of wizarding they must be home 
schooled... I can see Draco having a tutor, but I can't see Mrs 
Weasley teaching her children how to read and write...

On another note, we're told (mostly in the first book) that the first 
indication a child is a wizard is some strange, reality-defying act 
of random magic (such as bouncing down from the roof, or growing all 
your hair back in one night). I feel sorry for the children of Muggle-
borns... imagine what their Muggle parents must think, having what 
they thought was an ordinary child doing some extraordinary things!

Anyway, just some of my ponderences (sp?... is that even a word?!) on 
the universe of HP.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 03:50:24 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:50:24 -0000
Subject: Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <008201c01c34$26f5e460$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pk961+n74r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1347

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Mike said alot of things that I agree with, and the one in 
particular that I just did not get about this chapter is the dress 
robe.  She's a mom, right?  Isn't there a way, if she can use her 
wand to cook with, she could've "spruced" up the second robe to look 
better?  (At least anti-lace it so it didn't look so frayed like when 
Ron did it?)
> 

Of course she could have done something about the dress robe, but
it's in there to underline Ron's poverty and the fact that he's
really unhappy about it. 

I really think that someone will try to seduce Ron into betraying 
Harry by promising him fame, success and money.

susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 03:52:30 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:52:30 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <00e201c01c3c$2fbb6680$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pk99u+2ujn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1348

Great explanations..can I hire y'all to explain this stuff to my kids?

I personally have always been worried about the cat




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 03:46:47 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:46:47 -0000
Subject: Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <001a01c01c95$b9717820$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8pk8v7+l63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1349

> 
> Molly (Mrs. Weasley) is quite a lady.  First she's harsh, then 
she's bear  hugging.  She and Aurthur don't seem passionate 
(notwithstanding their  erstwhile feats of procreation), but when 
Percy criticizes Dad, Molly goes  ballistic.  She can be very 
sensitive, but she tosses Ron an outfit
> practically designed to torture fourteen-year-olds--without so much 
as a  warning.  Very interesting.  Don't wizards have anything for 
menopause?
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
> http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat

Oh, my goodness, Mike..I'm very concerned with this post.

Don't wizards have anything for menopause..is unfortunately very 
sexist about older women and terribly unfair to Molly Weasley.

Molly is the quintessential amazing mother....strongwilled and 
kind..she will read her kids the riot act (all mothers know that they 
are doing their kids no favors by letting them get away with 
misbehavior)...but loves them dearly and they all know it. Is it a 
coincidence that Harry loves being at their home? Molly is furious at 
the Dursleys for mistreating Harry, and is clearly focused on loving 
and caring for him. 

She tosses Ron an outfit, etc.? Have you ever been poor? Of course, 
she feels awful to give Ron such an outfit, but money only stretches 
so far....

Of course Molly and Arthur don't display their passion in front of 
their children, but everyone knows that parents are capable of 
tremendous eroticism when the doors are closed and the children are 
in bed. They are obviously a devoted couple and supportive partners 
to each other.

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Sep 12 03:56:22 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:56:22 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <8pk3n5+kio3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pk9h6+2lgi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1350

Of course Heinlein did a ton of stuff about this in his Future
History books




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 12 06:28:35 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 06:28:35 -0000
Subject: What's in a name?  Dumbledore....
In-Reply-To: <8pk33n+hggu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pkiej+v4b7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1351

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

<<NAME- Albus Dumbledore>>
 
<<Dumbledore...As we all know this means "Bumblebee". My personal 
take on this is that Dumbly, like a bee, is quiet and goes about his 
work diligently, except when anger is aroused, in which case we see 
his powerful "sting" and the full extent of his anger.>>

JKR says in one of the many interviews that it's because he goes 
around humming music to himself like a big bumblebee.  

And speaking of stings, isn't it true that a bee dies once it uses 
its sting?  I wonder what will happen to Dumbledore...

~Blaise.  
 





From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 06:16:09 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:16:09 +0100
Subject: Schrodinger's Car
Message-ID: <39BDCA29.BD87B27B@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1352

On Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:43:39 GMT "Snuffles Macgoo"
<msmacgoo at hotmail.com> wrote:

>great explination - but what about the cat?

Indeed! I'll break out the 'Free the  Schrodinger One' buttons.

(At this time in the morning, cannot think of a slogan as good as
Hermione's 'S.P.E.W.').


Vivienne







From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 06:31:26 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:31:26 +0100
Subject: Dumbledore, goats, and government vouchers to go to Hogwarts? :)
Message-ID: <39BDCDBE.9434B711@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1353

On: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:05:18 -0700 Dave Hardenbrook
<DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
wrote:

>On the subject of goats, I notice that Dumbledore talked about his
>brother who hexed goats, and now the recent (Sun., August 27, 2000)
>editorial in the San Jose Mercury News by Mark Purdy that goes
>against school vouchers because they could subsidize "witch
>schools" that teach kids to sacrifice goats.  Understandably
>real-life witches are angered by the misrepresentation and I
>feel the same way, but I wonder if his remarks were meant as a
>tongue-in-cheek though badly worded nod to JKR...

That sounds a little too obscure a reference. (Also, a defect in this
sort of thinking if he is seeking to continue the witchcraft=devil
worship connection - given the popular image of the devil as a goat
 - why would 'devil worshipers' wish to sacrifice goats?)

The goat sacrificing remark and the West Coast connection sounds
if anything rational as more a dig in the direction of some of the Afro
Caribbean and South American magical religions in which animal sacrifice
is still utilized.


Vivienne




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 21:38:42 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:38:42 +0200
Subject: The Middle Age of Molly?
References: <8pk8v7+l63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007501c01d01$d4045380$9171023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1354

> Don't wizards have anything for menopause..is unfortunately very
> sexist about older women and terribly unfair to Molly Weasley.

Sorry Susan--didn't mean to get anyone's goat on that one .... but it was
terribly hard to write a *completely* straight post without being
irresponsible somewhere!  I *wouldn't* call Molly "older", though--it might
be taken as ageist. <g,d&r>

In (somewhat questionable) defense of my wisecracks:

Molly is a good mum (and a grand human being, too).  I think I'd like her.
But that doesn't stop JKR from ragging her a little.  She has a crush on
Lockhart.  She believes everything the Daily Prophet prints about Hermione.
She *does* have some pretty quick mood swings.  She's the only one who takes
Percy almost as seriously as Percy does.  I don't think it'd be all that bad
if something could steady up a little.

> She tosses Ron an outfit, etc.? Have you ever been poor? Of course,
> she feels awful to give Ron such an outfit, but money only stretches
> so far....

Ouch!  Let's just say that my kids get new clothes only when we can't snag
hand-me-downs.  But I can't imagine giving an insecure fourteen-year-old
something that looks like his kid sister's party frock, without having a
private talk about it!  But I'll grant that when you're hard up and stressed
out, things like that can happen.

> Of course Molly and Arthur don't display their passion in front of
> their children, but everyone knows that parents are capable of
> tremendous eroticism when the doors are closed and the children are
> in bed. They are obviously a devoted couple and supportive partners
> to each other.

Amen to that!  I just wish my own kids where old enough to sleep the nights
through.  If there's anything that'll drive a normally decent guy to goatish
behavior on Harry Potter boards, it's two toddlers!  (C'mon Dee, back me
up!)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 21:38:45 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:38:45 +0200
Subject: Goats and Cars (Extremely OT)
References: <1.5.4.32.20000911213100.007077d0@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <007601c01d01$d4b3cd60$9171023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1355

<<This from a theologian who poses as a goat?  >>

That's not proof of a fundamental aesthetic deficit.  It's the definition.
(Of that and a few other things, too, I fear.)

<<But, you are correct, Mike -  my preferred reading is "The Highway Code",
"The Road Atlas of Great Britain" and "40 Ways to Entertain the Kids on Long
Car Journeys".   >>

Particularly the highway code and the Road Atlas.  Heck, you here in CH you
could resell those for good money.  As for Fillagain's Island, my copy
doesn't even pass muster as a bookstop.

But you really ought to give Tolkein another chance.  That's good stuff,
that is.  He, as the twins would put it, KNOWS.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 09:30:54 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:30:54 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <39BD9310.2EEA1A81@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8pkt4e+svqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1356

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> To read good fictional treatments of the paradox of Schrodinger's 
cat, read:
> 
> "Schrodinger's Kitten" by George Alec Effinger (winner of Nebula 
Best
> Novelette 1988)
>  "At the Rialto" by Connie Willis (winner of Nebula Best Novelette 
1989)
> and
> "Schrodinger's Cathouse" by Kij Johnson

May I also add "The Strange Case of Mrs Hudson's Cat or Sherlock 
Holmes solves the Einstein Mysteries" by Colin Bruce.  A dozen or 
so 'Sherlock Holmes' stories applying the principles of quantum 
physics, relativity, rotation of the earth and various other things 
to solve mysteries.  Fan fiction of a superior kind.

Pam




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 09:59:22 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:59:22 -0000
Subject: Childhood Wizards
In-Reply-To: <8pk7ip+2mkj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pkupq+p75h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1357

I've had a whole flight of fancy along the lines of how muggles deal 
with muggle-born witchlings (and wizardlings? or does one word 
encompass both?).  I imagined Grangers being really worried about 
some of the things that Hermione did as a tiny wee tot and being 
unable to discuss it with anyone because they didn't want their girl 
to be treated like a freak.  I even thought they might get involved 
in tracing their family history to see if there were any other odd 
people in the bloodline.  And, of course, they may have decided not 
to have any more children just in case they had another strange one. 
My children did some amazingly scary things when they were small - 
one of them, at age six, climbed 30ft high scaffolding when his 
father's back was turned for just three minutes.  He climbed down 
very carefully but Hermione might just have jumped! 

I imagine that the Grangers would have felt enormous relief when 
somebody came to visit them to discuss their child's future - perhaps 
encouraging Hermione to demonstrate what she was already capable of. 
I have imagined that it would be an undercover witch working in 
Hermione's primary school - somebody placed there to protect young 
witches and wizards from discovery and to try to help them to control 
their abilities without anyone, including the children, realising 
what was going on.  (I'm pretty sure I know who it is in my 
daughter's primary school!)

Then there would be the invitation to visit the school and an 
interview with Dumbledore and he would make even the most 
recalcitrant parent understand that there really is no choice - 
somebody with magical abilities has to be educated in a particular 
way.  

I understand that JKR has said in an interview that Hogwarts is the 
only magical school in the UK - if that is true, then there must be 
undcover witches and wizards in muggle schools to supervise the 
education of those children who don't get to Hogwarts (I'm sure that 
more than one character has said at some time or another that they 
weren't sure that they were good enough to get into Hogwarts).  

One of the things I've loved from the start of the Harry Potter books 
is that we are presented with a wizarding world that actually works - 
with an economy, and educational system, a transport system etc.  
Speculating on the detail of this society and where it interfaces 
with Muggle society gives me endless amusement.

Pam




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 14:46:24 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:46:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Middle Age of Molly?
References: <8pk8v7+l63@eGroups.com> <007501c01d01$d4045380$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <003701c01cc8$39b56500$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1358

Mike, as for backing you up, I agree with the age, but as far as a supportive other, I am not lucky, like the rest of you.  I am totally single (and celibate, sighs).  There are times, though, that I do miss the "ahem" sheet-action.  (Or should I steal some of Lori's Laura's lines during a breakfast?

Winks....


Amen to that!  I just wish my own kids where old enough to sleep the nights
through.  If there's anything that'll drive a normally decent guy to goatish
behavior on Harry Potter boards, it's two toddlers!  (C'mon Dee, back me
up!)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 14:54:45 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:54:45 -0400
Subject: New, unauthorized video biography.
Message-ID: <005601c01cc9$6436efa0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1359

It's amazing the things they are dredging up to make money.  Check this out~!


http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/39942230


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep 12 16:35:52 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:35:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, goats, and government vouchers to go to Hogwarts? :)
In-Reply-To: <39BDCDBE.9434B711@caersidi.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOENBCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1360

<sarcasm>
Sacrificing goats?  They got a nerve criticizing something that Jesus Christ
himself did (well... it was a lamb, not a goat, that they took to the
Temple, but it amounts to the same thing).  Still sounds like kids in a
Bible class might well learn to sacrifice animals if they take the bible
literally.
</sarcasm>


=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.higherawareness.com/
Current Book:   "Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" by Amanda Foreman
Quote:  There may be a hundred things you know about a person -- all of them
bad. But there may be just one thing you don't know, which if you did know,
would completely change your opinion.
=============================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Vivienne O'Regan [mailto:vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:31 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, goats, and government vouchers to
go to Hogwarts? :)

>On the subject of goats, I notice that Dumbledore talked about his
>brother who hexed goats, and now the recent (Sun., August 27, 2000)
>editorial in the San Jose Mercury News by Mark Purdy that goes
>against school vouchers because they could subsidize "witch
>schools" that teach kids to sacrifice goats.  Understandably
>real-life witches are angered by the misrepresentation and I
>feel the same way, but I wonder if his remarks were meant as a
>tongue-in-cheek though badly worded nod to JKR...

That sounds a little too obscure a reference. (Also, a defect in this
sort of thinking if he is seeking to continue the witchcraft=devil
worship connection - given the popular image of the devil as a goat
 - why would 'devil worshipers' wish to sacrifice goats?)

The goat sacrificing remark and the West Coast connection sounds
if anything rational as more a dig in the direction of some of the Afro
Caribbean and South American magical religions in which animal sacrifice
is still utilized.


Vivienne




From Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 12 17:07:28 2000
From: Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com (Katie Bell)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Schroedinger's Cat - recommended reading and a query
Message-ID: <20000912170728.18639.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1361

Time travel is something that truly interests me; I've
read a great deal of sci-fi stories, including the
Asimov Thiotimaline story and a sequel which really is
a story.  

That was a good description of the cat; for another,
read "The Coming of the Quantum Cats" by Fred Pohl. 
This is only for hard sci-fi buffs and may be out of
print, but does a great job with parallel universes. 
Also, "Paths to Otherwhere" by James P. Hogan is an
excellent multiverse story that even not sci-fi buffs
like.  But I think JK does a masterful job at time
travel; as many times as I've read that sequence I can
find no errors - much better than Star Trek, which has
more time travel paradoxes than you can shake a cat
at...

But what I wanted to ask is if anyone can point me to
a website of science fact abot time travel, multiple
universes, ect, on a layman's level.  Does anyone have
such a link?

And one note: I too have entered the essay contest;
for once I'm glad to be not yet 18!  If I win I shall
be sure to ask the burning questions we've all got...
and no doubt annoy JK no end.

Katie Bell

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 12 12:55:05 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:55:05 -0000
Subject: National Post Story
Message-ID: <007582519170c90JABBA@sendmail.canada.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1362

Dear HPforGrownups at egroups.com,

Your friend heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu thought you might be interested in this National Post story:

School board puts limits on Harry Potter books due to 'magic'
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?f=/stories/20000909/394885.html

Not only US schools restrict HP books - here's a story about an attempt to restrict access in Canada (Ebony - you reading this?)

_______________________________________
This is a free service courtesy of 
National Post Online (http://www.nationalpost.com)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 12 17:28:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:28:53 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter series draws on dark themes (MSNBC article)
Message-ID: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8AF@FTLEXC1>

No: HPFGUIDX 1363

Without actually mentioning the issue, the "expert" quoted towards the end
regarding the insufficiency of "moral guidance" in the HP books reminds me
of those who think "wouldn't it be COOL if Harry (or Dumbledore, or Ron, or
Hermione) went over to th edark side?!?!?" (which, of course, it wouldn't!)
Also, I know these experts keep saying that teens/kids today have novels to
read which deal with *bleaker subjects than ever before*, but I certainly
read my own share of angst literature when I was a preteen & teenager - and
some of them certainly were a lot more depressing and void of "moralization"
than the HP books - and others, like a bunch of the Lois Duncan books which
I still have in my bookshelves dealt with the supernatural at least as
openly as the HP books do - honestly, I didn't pay any attention to
bookbanning issues when I was reading those books so for all I know they
were banned or restricted in some places (although those original Bobsey
Twins & Nancy Drew books, which were incredibly racist (if you think the
House Elf dialogue in Book IV is problematic, you should check out the
1930's Bobsey Twins books!) weren't, because that was "accepted" in those
days).



Anyhow, enough musincs. Here's the article:

Fear of monsters in the closet, fear of the dark, fear of dying: These vivid
childhood anxieties are often the strongest and most enduring of a lifetime.
The instinct to shield kids from such fears is powerful, and yet some of
today's most popular children's literature confronts death, violence and
evil.
THE HARRY POTTER series by J.K. Rowling is no exception. In Rowling's fourth
book, "The Goblet of Fire," 14-year-old Harry (an orphan and no stranger to
tragedy) witnesses the murder of one of his peers. Even though the book is a
fantasy set in a magical world, Harry's feelings of grief, guilt and shock
are real enough to hit home for young readers. Still, it's nothing new. In
fact, it's characteristic of a long tradition of dark themes running through
literature for children and young adults, a tradition that may be getting
increasingly darker.
       The earliest stories written for children were teaching tools:
moralizing little tales with built-in lessons. Children's literature as a
genre didn't come of age until the 19th century, when improved printing
technology joined forces with a growing middle class and an emerging
consumer culture.
       
DRAWING ON FOLK TALES
       Many of the new children's books drew on folk tales for inspiration.
These traditional stories, many of them gory, had been passed down through
hundreds of generations by adults, for adults. 

         In the first quarter of the 19th century, English translations of
"Grimms' Fairy Tales" and "The Arabian Nights" were printed. Before long,
publishers repackaged the tales in sanitized versions as the popularity of
children's books increased.
       The stories were still scary, but toned down. In early versions of
some popular fairy tales, Cinderella's sisters get their feet chopped off,
Sleeping Beauty is raped and the Little Mermaid dies.
 The originals may seem a far cry from cartoon Disney versions familiar
today, but no matter how dismal, they nearly always spelled out a moral.
However, Lewis Carroll's "Alice in Wonderland" broke that mold.
       Published during the Victorian Age, this tale used nonsense to parody
the preachy tone of conventional children's stories and told those stories
in the language of children. Despite its ascent to classic status, Carroll's
book was unusual in that it broke from society's idea that children's
literature should be educational.
Debates over morals aside, tragedy has always played a part in the most
enduring children's stories. 
As does the Harry Potter series, they characteristically feature orphans,
villains, deaths of loved ones and epic battles against evil. From Peter
Pan's assertion that age 2 is the beginning of the end to a spider heroine's
lonely death in "Charlotte's Web," children's books play off kids' fears to
help them deal with life's realities.
       "I think it's human nature," said Elizabeth Campbell, an associate
professor of English at Oregon State University.
       "You're born with a sense that there is suffering," Campbell said.
"Children begin their lives crying. They have desires and fears, and they
are unformed fears when children are young, like the monster under their
bed. But they soon begin to take shape as real fears, like the loss of a
parent or a sibling. The moment that happens and they need to have some
answers, that's the moment literature becomes necessary and it becomes a way
of working that fear out."
       
FEELING THEY'RE NOT ALONE
       Today the themes found in children's literature have expanded to even
gloomier topics, ranging from divorce to sexual abuse to explicit violence.
The shift to more reality-based subjects is most obvious in the
ever-expanding realm of young adult literature, which emerged in the 1960s
and '70s for the "12 and up" crowd. 
In 1974, Robert Cormier's groundbreaking book "The Chocolate War" hit the
young adult market with a story about a boy who fights the bullies and
loses. The book's unhappy ending left many critics searching for a moral.
Wasn't the underdog supposed to win? Wasn't the story too depressing for
kids?
       The award-winning book, which was originally rejected by seven
publishers, has been used in classrooms since the mid-1970s, generating both
controversy and praise. Cormier said he believes many adults underestimate
kids' ability to handle books with mature material.
       "I think kids are stronger and more resilient than people give them
credit for being," he said.
       Cormier said he gets letters from young readers who tell him they are
grateful his stories reflect their own lives and make them feel that they're
not alone.
       "Kids say, 'You should see what's going on in our school,"' he said.
       The key, Cormier said, is to write for dramatic effect and not
exploitation. Never talk down to kids, and always write the truth, even if
it's complicated or upsetting.
       
EVEN DARKER THEMES
       Books published in the past five years have delved even deeper into
dark themes. In "The Facts Speak for Themselves," author Brock Cole
describes a 13-year-old girl whose unstable life includes neglect, rape and
an affair with an older man. 
In "What Jamie Saw" by Caroline Colman, an 8-year-old boy sees his mother's
boyfriend abuse his baby sister. Walter Dean Myers' "Monster" follows the
emotions of a teen jailed for murder.
       These novels are only a few examples of literature dealing more
frankly with bleak subjects than ever before, said Eliza T. Dresang,
associate professor of information studies at Florida State University and
author of "Radical Change: Books for Youth in a Digital Age."
       The mass media broke down barriers through the years so topics once
thought taboo now are fair game, she said. Kids are more exposed than ever
to life's problems thanks to television, newspapers and the Internet.
       "Generally there is more respect of what young people can do, how
sophisticated they are, what they can handle, and that's being reflected in
their books," Dresang said. "Children in this Net generation need to be
looked at as capable and needing connections, rather than innocent and
needing protection or depraved and needing to be redeemed."
       
OFFERING HOPE 
But not everyone is a fan of exposing kids to life's harsh reality through
literature. Bleak books with no clear uplifting messages can be just as
negative for children as a steady diet of violence and sexuality in
television and movies, said Karen Shanor, a clinical psychologist in
Washington, D.C., and author of "The Emerging Mind."
       "We know the best way to raise a child is to raise an optimistic
child: not with a Pollyanna view of the world, but knowing if there's a
difficulty, a problem in the world, you can solve it," said Shanor, who said
even the Harry Potter series doesn't provide enough moral guidance to
counteract its dark side.   
           "When we don't offer hope, or we offer overwhelming
fear-provoking feelings, then what the child does is they disassociate,"
Shanor said. "They pull away and kind of numb themselves, and that's very
destructive."
       Parents aren't holding the line, and the result is not group therapy
but more cynical kids, she said.
       But 11-year-old Geneva Walmer Hooten of Portland, Ore., disagrees.
Geneva contends that the sad and scary books she reads are good for her and
that talking the stories over with her mom helps her sort out her feelings.
       "It kind of lets you know how other people's lives are so you can
appreciate yours and know how to help them," she said. "Each book has its
own kind of happiness."


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Sep 12 18:31:09 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:31:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <001a01c01c95$b9717820$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8plspd+m574@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1364

Aberforth's Goat wrote:

"Molly (Mrs. Weasley) is quite a lady.  First she's harsh, then she's 
bear hugging.  She and Aurthur don't seem passionate (notwithstanding 
their erstwhile feats of procreation), but when Percy criticizes Dad, 
Molly goes ballistic.  She can be very sensitive, but she tosses Ron 
an outfit practically designed to torture fourteen-year-olds--without 
so much as a warning.  Very interesting.  Don't wizards have anything 
for menopause?"

******

I think Molly tries to compensate for Arthur's soft-heartedness by 
veering between 'good cop' and 'bad cop', while he tinkers with his 
battery collection and chuckles at the gnomes digging up the back 
garden (or puts the wizworld to rights at the MoM).  She puts up a 
pretence of his being in charge of the household ("wait til you 
father gets home!"), but we rarely see any evidence of that.  She is 
a very strong character, capable of love, support and - albeit 
through screaming at the rest of the family - guidance.

We've never seen Molly and Arthur being passionate with each other, 
but we've not seen much passion on display anywhere else either.  
When I was a child, I didn't need to see my parents ravaging each 
other to guess that they were a happy, loving couple and if I saw 
them kiss each other, my reaction was usually something 
like "Yeauuch!!"  Fortunately, they followed the 'not in front of the 
children' rule for their moments of passion.

As for the dress robe, I suppose Molly could have conjured up 
something more suitable for her No.6 son, but maybe she feels he 
needs to learn a lesson about the use of magic in same way that 
Muggle children should be taught the value of money.  If you give 
children everything on a plate, they'll grow up expecting everything 
to be done for them (like Dudley Dursley).  Apart from that 
possibility, JKR keeps reinforcing the fact that the Weasleys are 
poor, and I guess this is her way of illustrating that magic isn't a 
panacea.

Neil  

       





From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 12 18:42:05 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:42:05 -0000
Subject: "Publisher bringing Harry Potter to China"
Message-ID: <8pltdt+6o6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1365

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/12/china.harrypotter.ap/index.ht
ml

Make sure to get the whole URL in the location window of your brower, 
if it gets interrupted by a linebreak when it gets posted.....

-Brooks




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 12 20:06:10 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:06:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More HP paraphernalia  
Message-ID: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8B4@FTLEXC1>

No: HPFGUIDX 1366

Amazon seems to no longer be carrying the 2001 Daily Calendar - does anyone
know if it'll exist at all? 
- here's the notice they just sent to me:

Hello from Amazon.com. 

We're sorry to report that we have contacted our supplier and learned
that we will not be able to obtain "Harry Potter 2001 Day-To-Day Calendar."
 
This unavailable item has been cancelled from your order, and your
credit card has not been charged for it.

I apologize for this inconvenience.  Until recently we still hoped to
be able to obtain this item.
 
We expend significant effort keeping abreast of prices and
availabilities, but our reliance on our suppliers for information
about the items they offer guarantees that, occasionally, our database
will not reflect all changes.


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& Russell, P.A.



From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Wed Sep 13 00:04:16 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 00:04:16 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <968803456.27217@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1367


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


What is Snape? 

  o A spy for Dumbledore posing as Voldemort's ally. 
  o A spy for Voldemort posing as Dumbledore's ally. 
  o Unknown: JKR will keep teasing us about his loyalties until the final book. 
  o In need of a really good mouth wash. 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 13 00:22:34 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:22:34 -0500
Subject: Time travel
References: <200009110142.e8B1g4v08915@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <39BEC8CA.1A81B8C8@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1368

Hi --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> Just as an aside, I remain astounded by JKR's use of time travel in
> PoA, which is still my favorite HP book, although I loved the other
> three.  I have read or listened to PoA at least 15 or 16 times, and
> the scene with the Patronus at the lake STILL give me chills.

Me too!  Me too!  Some days I feel that GoF is my favorite HP book
because the characters are older, it's HUGE (more HP bang for the buck),
plot is becoming more complex and dark, etc.  Other days, I still love
PoA so very much, and like Kathy, I too *still* get chills when reading
that scene with his Patronus at the lake. They darn well better get that
done *right* in the movie -- if done correctly, I would imagine there
wouldn't be a dry eye in the place.

Neil wrote --

<<<At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I agree with most of that, but
then that was the thrust of my original point about Dumbledore: not that
he might "go over to Voldemort" - which just reinforces the bizarre idea
that Voldemort has the monopoly on 'badness' - but that he might not
turn out to
be such a paragon of virtue.>>>

I know -- I said one shouldn't engage in "me too" posts very often but I
have to again say "Me too."

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep 13 01:20:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:20:53 -0400
Subject: names of moons & heraldic colors
References: <39B6D038.BCE0812@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39BED675.43C1EA49@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1369

I was hunting for a list of When Full Moons Were In 1980 and 1981 for a
fanfic thing, and found something interesting about moons.
In Midieval England, Full Moons had names - one of the websites I saw said
that this was commonly done before the months had the names that they
currently do.
Anyhow, the Full Moon in January is called the WOLF MOON, the Full Moon in
March is the WORM MOON and the full moon in July is the BUCK MOON. No dog
moon, in midieval english, although the colonial & algonquin August Moon is
the DOG MOON (siriusly!)
I would guess this means nothing, but I found it a little interesting.

Then, when doublechecking the difference between a buck & a stag, for
obvious reasons (there's no difference according to m-w.com - a buck is a
deer & a stag is a deer) I came across a list of heraldic colors (see below)
and symbols (check out http://digiserve.com/heraldry/symbols.htm for the
list of animal symbols) and it made me pause - Slytherin colors symbolizing
Hope & Joy? Huh? :

Or, yellow or gold - Generosity.

 Argent, white or silver - Peace and sincerity.

 Sable or black - Constancy, sometimes grief.

 Azure or blue - Loyalty and truth.

 Gules or red - Military fortitude and magnanimity.

 Vert or green - Hope, joy and sometimes loyalty in love.

 Purpure, purple - Royal majesty, sovereignty and justice.

 Tenne or tawney - Worthy ambition.

And if you do need to find out what phase the moon was on a particular day,
check out http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/vphase.html - they can give it to you
for any date & time, from 1800 to 2199AD.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 02:27:45 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:27:45 -0000
Subject: The Middle Age of Molly?
In-Reply-To: <007501c01d01$d4045380$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8pmon1+36d8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1370

.
> 
> > Of course Molly and Arthur don't display their passion in front of
> > their children, but everyone knows that parents are capable of
> > tremendous eroticism when the doors are closed and the children 
are
> > in bed. They are obviously a devoted couple and supportive 
partners
> > to each other.
> 
> Amen to that!  I just wish my own kids where old enough to sleep 
the nights through.  If there's anything that'll drive a normally 
decent guy to goatish  behavior on Harry Potter boards, it's two 
toddlers!  (C'mon Dee, back me
> up!)
> 

Okay, we NOW agree. I ALSO have two kids just turned 3 and 1, and I 
would REALLY like a little OPPORTUNITY to indulge my capacity for 
tremendous eroticism. Oh, yes.......

Susan




From angelx_ph at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 13 02:41:27 2000
From: angelx_ph at yahoo.com (angelx_ph at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:41:27 -0000
Subject: Mini-Me will be Peeves
Message-ID: <8pmpgn+lp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1371

Here's what I got from the IMDb:

Little Star Lands Big Role

Verne Troyer (best known as Mini-Me) has landed a role in the eagerly 
awaited Harry Potter movie. The pint sized actor will play Peeves the 
poltergeist in the screen adaptation of J.K. Rowling's best seller, 
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001). A Hollywood insider 
says, "Verne's delighted he's got the role. He's a huge Harry Potter 
fan." The 31-year-old actor, who will next appear alongside Jim
Carrey 
in the How the Grinch Stole Christmas (2000), joins British stars 
Robbie Coltrane, Alan Rickman and Dame Maggie Smith in the cast for 
the eagerly awaited flick. 






From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 02:41:29 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:41:29 -0000
Subject: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogworts...
Message-ID: <8pmpgp+o99f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1372

Has anyone else noticed (or am I wrong) that all the Hogwarts 
professors seem to be single (or divorced or widowed?)..none of them
have a visible partner...? and none of them have kids.....!

Is that a requirement for teaching? Is that why Professor Dumbledore 
has such a hard time recruiting faculty......or are the 
partners/lovers stashed away somewhere. 

Re fantasy influence: I just read an article that said that Rowlings 
cited the Chronicles of Narnia as an influence on her work.

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 02:42:22 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:42:22 -0000
Subject: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogwarts...
Message-ID: <8pmpie+fr0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1373

Has anyone else noticed (or am I wrong) that all the Hogwarts 
professors seem to be single (or divorced or widowed?)..none of them
have a visible partner...? and none of them have kids.....!

Is that a requirement for teaching? Is that why Professor Dumbledore 
has such a hard time recruiting faculty......or are the 
partners/lovers stashed away somewhere. 

Re fantasy influence: I just read an article that said that Rowlings 
cited the Chronicles of Narnia as an influence on her work.

Susan






From Kellywazd at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 02:58:45 2000
From: Kellywazd at aol.com (Kellywazd at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:58:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Harry Have a middle name
Message-ID: <b5.76887d.26f04765@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1374

What grey lady are you talking about?
Kelly



From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 03:08:55 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:08:55 -0000
Subject: Narnia.  Was: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogwarts...
In-Reply-To: <8pmpie+fr0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pmr47+co3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1375

For better or worse, you may have opened up a floodgate now for 
people who want to start talking about connections between the 
Chronicles of Narnia and Harry Potter.  My two knuts: the stargazing, 
fortunetelling centaurs from PS are a lot like the stargazing, 
fortunetelling centaur (I believe his name was Roonwit?) from the 
seventh Narnia book, The Last Battle.  For those who know more about 
mythology than I do, is there any kind of traditional connection in 
folklore to centaurs and astrology?




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 03:03:37 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:03:37 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <200009120210.e8C2AOv06494@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8pmqq9+ujoc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1376

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> both time.  OKay, I am getting really incoherent now!  All I can do 
> is fervently quote Harry:
> "This is the weirdest thing we have ever done!"

The other day, I was riding in the car with Tim when the cassette 
reached that scene. As Harry failed to understand that they were 
going to time travel the first time Hermione told him so, and still 
didn't understand the second time she told him, and kept being 
confused about the whole thing, Tim commented: "Harry is a mundane." 
No insult intended to my fellow HP fans, but 'mundane' is what sf 
fans call people who don't read sf. Any sf fan would be familiar 
with the idea of time travel and its associated paradoxes.




From seekaybee at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 03:28:08 2000
From: seekaybee at aol.com (seekaybee at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:28:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogwarts...
Message-ID: <74.2f2fbc3.26f04e48@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1377

I think we don't read much about the partners of the teachers because the 
children, Harry and his friends are the focus of the books.  I certainly hope 
being single isn't a requirement of teaching, if so I'm there!!!



From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 03:35:33 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:35:33 -0000
Subject: clothes (was:Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <008201c01c34$26f5e460$45d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pmsm5+82sq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1378

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> [Ron's] dress robe.  She's a mom, right?  Isn't there a way, if she
> can use her wand to cook with, she could've "spruced" up the 
> second robe to look better?  (At least anti-lace it so it didn't 
> look so frayed like when Ron did it?)

1) I wondered why Ron had to use a Severing Spell instead of just 
using a scissors.

2) Apparently they can't magic up wizard clothes. They buy their 
Hogwarts robes at Madam Malkin's shop --  where Madam Malkin and her 
shop assistant witches pin up the hems the same way that Muggles do! 
(So how were the robes that Mrs. Weasley bought for the kids hemmed
to the right length?) She should be able to just tap the robe with 
her wand (okay, tap it on a point that is the right length) and make 
it hem itself! I think we saw her measuring with a tape measure: her 
tape measure should measure on its own like Mr. Ollivander's -- 
and automagically shrink or stretch the fabric it measures so that 
the garment fits right without a human having to cut and sew to make 
alterations.

Apparently they can't even 'spruce up' wizard clothes by magic: 
remember Lupin's patched robes, and early in GoF Harry reflects that 
he has never seen the adult Weasleys wearing anything but long robes 
in various states of shabbiness (even while dropping the kids off at 
KIng's Cross?)    

Apparently there are a LOT of things that magic can't do. I was 
thinking on the bus this morning that Hagrid's explanation of wizard 
secrecy <<if they knew we existed, everyone would be bothering us for 
magic solutions to all their problems>> becomes very implausible when 
one sees how the wizard folk are unable to use magic to solve their 
own problems. By 'their own problems', I don't just mean Voldemort -- 
I mean, lots of them are fat, lots of them are homely, some of them 
need eyeglasses. The Weasleys are poor, Neville is a klutz and has a 
terrible memory, Stan Shunpike has godawful acne (and so did Moaning 
Myrtle when she was alive). All of those are problems that SEEM a lot 
easier to fix than changing a desk into a pig or doing the Summoning 
Charm or Apparating.  




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 03:41:00 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:41:00 -0000
Subject: What's in a name?  Dumbledore....
In-Reply-To: <8pk33n+hggu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pmt0c+dgri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1379

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

> Albus...Ok that's not hard, it means white in latin. 

In Latin, "white" meant "clean" and "pure". Our words "candidate" 
and "candid" (a connection that assumes a LOT) come from another 
Latin word for white, "candidus". He could have been Candidus and 
reminded us all of the naive but honorable young man who believed his 
tutor who taught that everything that happens is for the best.

I believe the reason that "Albus" sounds like "Albion" is that 
Albion, an old poetic name for the island of Britain, was named after 
the White Cliffs of Dover.

  






From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 03:53:38 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:53:38 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Harry Have a middle name
Message-ID: <F232j7AIf4pBCcWxkAA0000a512@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1380

What grey lady are you talking about?
Kelly

The ghost for Ravenclaw, who appears (apparently, we haven't checked) in 
book 1 when H and R are going to see the Mirror of Erised

storm and lily


----Original Message Follows----
From: Kellywazd at aol.com
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Does Harry Have a middle name
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:58:45 EDT



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From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 03:57:20 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:57:20 -0000
Subject: Childhood Wizards  (added: Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <8pk7ip+2mkj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pmtv0+ohru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1381

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at h...> wrote:
> Hogwarts is obviously THE school for wizards, but only after
> they're  eleven. What do wizard children (that is, children of
> wizarding families) do before then? Are there special wizarding 
> primary/elementary schools for younger tots? 

I believe that there are wizarding primary schools.

> They can't go to a Muggle school because wizard children are often
> using basic magic from a very young age (eg, Fred and George turned
> Ron's teddy bear into a giant spider... 

I forget which twin it was, but he turned Ron's teddy into a giant 
spider in a fit of rage after Ron broke his toy broomstick, just as 
Harry flew to the roof of the school cafeteria while running away 
from Dudley's gang, and turned his teacher's wig blue. If Muggle 
schools can tolerate this from Muggle-born wizard kids, they can 
tolerate it from wizard-born kids. I imagine that most wizard parents 
would scorn to send their children to Muggle school, but some, 
Muggle-born themselves and/or unable to afford to send their child to 
wizard primary school, would send them to Muggle schools.

> It is more or less implied  that Hogwarts is the only school for 
> wizard children in the UK, so before the eleventh year children of
> wizarding they must be home schooled

I believe JKR meant: the only SECONDARY school for wizard children. 
HOWEVER: if Hogwarts is the only wizard secondary school, and there 
are only as many students at Hogwarts as JKR indicates (around 280), 
and the average lifespan of wizards is 100 years (as opposed to the 
Muggle average of 75 years), then the wizard population cannot be 
large enough to support the wizarding economy and society that JKR 
shows. One of those axioms must be false. 

FURTHER, even if we fix up a way for the population to be as big as 
JKR shows (maybe by assuming that the average wizarding lifespan is 
300 years and Dumbledore is actually 380 rather than 80), I still 
don't see how that population is large enough to support the number 
of professional Quidditch teams depicted, or to supply enough 
adequately-skilled players for that many teams. A partial solution 
would be that the teams are at best semi-pro; their gate receipts, 
refreshment sales, and government subsidy barely keeps them in 
broomsticks, uniforms, and enchanted balls, and the players have to 
support themselves from family money, other work, etc. 

> imagine what their Muggle parents must think, having what 
> they thought was an ordinary child doing some extraordinary things!

Didn't Colin Creevey say something about his parents having been 
relieved to learn that all those strange things he did were 'only' 
magic? 





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 04:07:21 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:07:21 -0000
Subject: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogworts...
In-Reply-To: <8pmpgp+o99f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pmuhp+ano1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1382

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed (or am I wrong) that all the Hogwarts 
> professors seem to be single (or divorced or widowed?)..none of them
> have a visible partner...? and none of them have kids.....!

People keep noticing that and offering it as proof that the wizard 
folk have low sex drive leading to serious population decline. I 
think it is not true that all of the teachers are single: I think 
McGonagall and Hooch have been a couple since they were in their 
early 20s (and that they used to have a series of pet cats 
all named Tommy until Minnie became an Animagus and Hoochie got 
irrationally jealous that Minnie and Tommy might be talking behind 
her back in Cat --- which I suggested long before someone else 
suggested that Crookshanks might be McGonagall's lovechild!). I think 
Madam Pomfrey is a grandma and spends the summers with her husband; 
just because she doesn't visit any of her grandchildren at Christmas 
doesn't prove she doesn't have grandchildren -- maybe they're just 
all migrated to different countries.





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 04:07:21 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:07:21 -0000
Subject: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogworts...
In-Reply-To: <8pmpgp+o99f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pmuhp+oigf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1383

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed (or am I wrong) that all the Hogwarts 
> professors seem to be single (or divorced or widowed?)..none of them
> have a visible partner...? and none of them have kids.....!

People keep noticing that and offering it as proof that the wizard 
folk have low sex drive leading to serious population decline. I 
think it is not true that all of the teachers are single: I think 
McGonagall and Hooch have been a couple since they were in their 
early 20s (and that they used to have a series of pet cats 
all named Tommy until Minnie became an Animagus and Hoochie got 
irrationally jealous that Minnie and Tommy might be talking behind 
her back in Cat --- which I suggested long before someone else 
suggested that Crookshanks might be McGonagall's lovechild!). I think 
Madam Pomfrey is a grandma and spends the summers with her husband; 
just because she doesn't visit any of her grandchildren at Christmas 
doesn't prove she doesn't have grandchildren -- maybe they're just 
all migrated to different countries.





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 04:11:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:11:26 -0000
Subject: Ghosts/Houses/Mascots (was:Does Harry Have a middle name
In-Reply-To: <b5.76887d.26f04765@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8pmupe+8l6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1384

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Kellywazd at a... wrote:
> What grey lady are you talking about?

The official ghost of each Hogwarts House:
Gryffindor: Nearly Headless Nick
Slytherin: the Bloody Baron
Hufflepuff: the Fat Friar
Ravenclaw: the Grey Lady

It is unlikely that the ghosts are the actual founders, unless Godric 
Gryffindor over one thousand years ago was also Sir Nicholas de 
Mimsey-Porpington 500 years ago.

Which reminds me, has anyone mentioned that, on the Hogwarts shield 
of arms, the Gryffindor lion and Slytherin serpent are 
punching at each other while the Ravenclaw eagle and Hufflepuff 
badger watch?




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Wed Sep 13 06:04:50 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:04:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More HP paraphernalia
Message-ID: <v02140b15b5e4c9660d35@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1385


Well, as far as I know, Borders is still going to carry it along with a lot
of other HP merchandise.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Grammy nominees 2000 compilation
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 13 05:09:45 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 05:09:45 -0000
Subject: Grey Lady etc (was:*Does Harry Have a middle name
In-Reply-To: <F232j7AIf4pBCcWxkAA0000a512@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8pn26p+3ogn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1386

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Snuffles Macgoo" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:

> The ghost for Ravenclaw, who appears (apparently, we haven't 
> checked) in  book 1 when H and R are going to see the Mirror of
> Erised

Chapter 12, "The Mirror of Erised", page 210 of American paperback: 
"They passed the ghost of a tall witch gliding in the opposite 
direction, but saw no one else."

Meanwhile: Chapter 7, "The Sorting Hat", page 115 of American 
paperback: "My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he 
deserves? He gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really 
even a ghost --- "

And also: I just posted my first HP fic in the Fan Fiction folder of 
the Files section of this e-group. It has no plot, so people who only 
like stories with a plot shouldn't even bother. I know I need help 
with the words and stuff -- I asked my friend for her advice and she 
merely corrected my grammar. It isn't MY grammar, it's young Sirius's 
grammar. Like Catlady twenty years ago (Kittenlady?), he deliberately 
uses bad grammar when being wicked.




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 06:38:12 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:38:12 -0000
Subject: stars, Lily and James, Nearly Headless Nick, and the guy on the back
Message-ID: <8pn7ck+19h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1387

I've just finished reading HP#1 (for the third time in six months, 
which is a record for me!) and I've got a few thoughts about it, most 
of which have probably cropped up already!

In the Forbidden Forest, Harry meets the centaurs who, instead of 
giving an sort of straight answer, repeat 'Mars is bright tonight' - 
like Hagrid I found this very annoying! I was wondering if anyone 
knew the astrological significance of Mars being bright or in 
prominence. My own theory was that Mars was named after the Roman god 
of war, so perhaps it symbolises the oncoming war between Good and 
Evil (or at least Our Side and Their Side).

Secondly, Voldemort states explicity at the end 'I killed your 
father, and then your mother' (although of course not EXACTLY like 
that, but the words are to the effect. This, as we all know, 
contradicts to the Priori Incantatem (sp?) thingey at the end of GoF. 
So... 1) This is all part of some incredible plot twist JKR is 
setting up, 2) James and Lily were killed in such quick succession 
that the order of them coming out of the wand was 'blurred', or 3) 
JKR has made a royal mistake! I hope it's 1), althought I find myself 
leaning towards 3)!

Thirdly Nearly Headless Nick (a character who I feel embodies JKR's 
sense of humour and originality) says 'I haven't eaten for nearly 
four hundred years', which contradicts his 500th Deathday Party in 
CoS. Personally I feel that this proves 'Harry Potter' is not set to 
any sort of 'real' chronology... Nick probably lied about his age to 
the Headless Society (or whatever they were) in order to make himself 
sound more noble, or something to that effect.

Fourthly, I have the British edition, and on the back cover of PS 
there's a picture of a young, bearded man holding a book. Which 
character is this supposed to be?! It doesn't match the description 
of any in the book, or at least any of the characters I've thought 
about! 




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 13 08:02:56 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:02:56 -0000
Subject: stars, Lily and James, Nearly Headless Nick, and the guy on the back
In-Reply-To: <8pn7ck+19h5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pncbg+peul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1388

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" 

> Secondly, Voldemort states explicity at the end 'I killed your 
> father, and then your mother' 

Actually I've never thought it necessary to believe *anything* 
Voldemort says and certainly would not believe *everything*.  There 
may have been no point in his lying to Harry but in Voldemort we have 
an amoral, psychopathic baddie who may lie so habitually that truth 
and falsehood have absolutely no significance for him.  He is also 
intentionally cruel and plays with his 'kill' feeding off their 
distress - he may have thought that Harry would find it more 
upsetting to think his mother watched his father die.  Harry hears 
his mother's screams but I'm not sure he actually sees his parents' 
death clearly and unambiguously.  


> Thirdly Nearly Headless Nick 

Yea - I agree - we've all exaggerated for effect on occasion I'm 
sure.  

> Fourthly, I have the British edition, and on the back cover of PS 
> there's a picture of a young, bearded man holding a book. 

I think when Bloomsbury were asked about this they said it was 
a 'generic wizard'  and obviously someone had told the artist about 
Dumbledore's striped trousers.  A later edition of the UK paperback 
shows Dumbledore - complete with long grey hair and beard tucked into 
belt and striped trousers and the put-outer.  




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 13 13:39:58 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:39:58 -0400
Subject: Amazing world we live in... sighs.
Message-ID: <00b701c01d88$1c47d000$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1389

      News Alert for "Harry Potter News Alert"  
                   

           
      Reuters Entertainment News Summary  (Reuters) 
      Director Altman Blames Media for Cult of Celebrity 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Alaska mayor works magic on Harry Potter contest  (Reuters) 
      Harry Potter's magic touch will extend to all 50 U.S. states thanks to complaints from an Alaska mayor irate about his state's exclusion from a contest for fans of the fictional wizard. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Harry Potter Contest Rules Changed  (Associated Press) 
      The mayor of Ketchikan and schoolchildren around Alaska have forced Scholastic Inc. to change the rules for its Harry Potter writing contest - after comparing Scholastic to ``Voldemort,'' the evil wizard that is Harry's rival. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Library Stops Harry Potter Gimmick  (Associated Press) 
      A library has stopped giving Harry Potter fans a certificate from the fictional boy's wizardry school because parents and churches complained the gimmick exposed children to witchcraft.  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 12:08:14 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:08:14 -0000
Subject: Do the British have a different version of the books than the Americans?
Message-ID: <8pnqne+hcq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1390

I am new here, so excuse me for asking a question that may have 
already been answered in the past...
While reading the first and second book, which I bought in the US,  I 
noticed that the author uses the word, "Soccer", to describe a sport. 
The British use the word, "Football" to describe the same sport, so I 
am just wondering if the wording was changed for an American version 
of the books? Or did she write these books with American readers in 
mind?
Thanks for the help!
Helena




From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 11:48:56 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (helena giammarco)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:48:56 GMT
Subject: Messages
Message-ID: <F85HfyQgeDKvPEkGhAj00007435@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1391

I would like to start sending messages to the group. Thank you.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 13 14:08:42 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:08:42 -0000
Subject: Interesting storylines.  The world is an interesteding place in HP
Message-ID: <8po1pa+eaj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1392

News Alert for "Harry Potter News Alert"  
   

 
Reuters Entertainment News Summary  (Reuters) 
Director Altman Blames Media for Cult of Celebrity 

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000912/en/entertainment-
summary_1695.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Alaska mayor works magic on Harry Potter contest  (Reuters) 
Harry Potter's magic touch will extend to all 50 U.S. states thanks 
to complaints from an Alaska mayor irate about his state's exclusion 
from a contest for fans of the fictional wizard. 

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000912/en/culture-potter_1.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Harry Potter Contest Rules Changed  (Associated Press) 
The mayor of Ketchikan and schoolchildren around Alaska have forced 
Scholastic Inc. to change the rules for its Harry Potter writing 
contest - after comparing Scholastic to ``Voldemort,'' the evil 
wizard that is Harry's rival. 

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20000912/us/harry_potter_contest_1.htm
l

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Library Stops Harry Potter Gimmick  (Associated Press) 
A library has stopped giving Harry Potter fans a certificate from the 
fictional boy's wizardry school because parents and churches 
complained the gimmick exposed children to witchcraft.
 
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20000912/us/harry_potter_witchcraft_1.
html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
 





From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 14:57:11 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:57:11 -0000
Subject: names of moons & heraldic colors
In-Reply-To: <39BED675.43C1EA49@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8po4k7+qts6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1393

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:

> In Midieval England, Full Moons had names - one of the websites I 
saw said
> that this was commonly done before the months had the names that 
they
> currently do.

Japanese 'moons' had names too, and therefore classic Japanese names 
of months had lunar derivations. Several of the MUTZUKI class 
destroyers built in the early 1920's carried these names.  These 
translations came into English by way of German, so they probably
have some problems, but on the whole give an idea:

Satsuki: "Month of First Buds"
Kisarigi: "Second Month"
Yayoi: "Month of Growing Plants"
Mutsuki: "Month (moon) of First Rice-Sowing"
Uzuki: "Month of Blooming Makinos"
Fumizuki: "Month of Rice Ears"
Kikuzuki: "Month of Chrysanthemum Blooms"
Minazuki: "Sixth Month"
Mikazuki: "Sickle Moon"
Nagatsuki: "Month of Long Moonlight"
Yuzuki: "Evening Moon"
Mochizuki: "Full Moon"

more of these very poetic ship names can be found here:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnnames.htm





From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 14:50:36 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:50:36 -0000
Subject: HP 48th on list of most banning requests....
Message-ID: <8po47s+b6ik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1394

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/bannedbooks000913.html




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Sep 13 09:08:48 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:08:48 +0100
Subject: buck\stag, house colours, hogwarts crest, quiz
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEDOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1395

"The difference between a buck & a stag"

There are two possibilities for the difference and I am unsure which is
correct.

Stag: Male of red deer or of other large kinds of dear
Buck: Male of fallow-deer, reindeer, chamois and antelope (and several other
animals)

Stag: Fully grown male deer
Buck: male deer

The definitions come from The Concise Oxford Dictionary (1960's edition) and
The Oxford Mini-Dictionary (1991 edition) respectively. I unfortunately do
not have access to the complete OED to settle this matter.

"Green - Hope, joy and sometimes loyalty in love." And "silver - Peace and
sincerity"

Hope, joy, peace and sincerity? This seems to be a perfect description of
Slytherin! The 'loyalty in love' adds weight to the Snape loved Lily
argument. This being the reason he changed from bad to good.

"Which reminds me, has anyone mentioned that, on the Hogwarts shield of
arms, the Gryffindor lion and Slytherin serpent are punching at each other
while the Ravenclaw eagle and Hufflepuff badger watch?"

It is a good indication of inter-house relationships in the school.
Gryffindor and Slytherin at each other's throats with the other two
carefully saying out of the way.

This talk of the crest has reminded me of the following. Last night Harry
Potter came up on a quiz show (The Syndicate). I think there were 10
questions in the round of which the six I can remember I have listed below.

1: Name Harry's parents.
2: What is Sirius' childhood nickname?
3: Name the Hogsmeade Joke shop.
4: What is the English translation of the Hogwarts motto?
5: What is the name of the deputy head of Hogwarts?
6: What is the name of Hermione's cat?

Simon




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Sep 13 19:59:29 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:59:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do the British have a different version of the books than the Americans?
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000913195929.0070f58c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1396

At 12:08 09/13/2000 -0000, Helena wrote:

>I am new here, so excuse me for asking a question that may have 
>already been answered in the past...
>While reading the first and second book, which I bought in the US,  I 
>noticed that the author uses the word, "Soccer", to describe a sport. 
>The British use the word, "Football" to describe the same sport, so I 
>am just wondering if the wording was changed for an American version 
>of the books? Or did she write these books with American readers in 
>mind?

Welcome to the club, Helena.

The short answer to your question is 'yes'. 

The American publishers, Scholastic, changed some of the words and phrases
so that they would be more easily understood by readers in the US.  Not
everyone (especially adult readers) thinks that was necessary, but JK
Rowling reportedly approved all the changes herself.  She is said to have
wanted everyone to have a similar 'experience' of the books and the logic
behind the changes was that some younger US readers might stumble over the
British words and phrases.

Arguably, the worst offence was changing the title of the first book to
"...Sorcerer's Stone," because it deals specifically with the Philosopher's
Stone (Nicolas Flamel, the French alchemist, was a real person, who was
involved in search for the Philosopher's Stone).  

Some have commented that there were fewer UK to US changes in the fourth
book, and this was probably because the US version was released at the same
time as the Bloomsbury (UK) edition, leaving less time to make the changes.

Neil








            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 19:40:23 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:40:23 -0000
Subject: Do the British have a different version of the books than the Americans?
In-Reply-To: <8pnqne+hcq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pol77+2rtq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1397

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, hgiammarco at h... wrote:
<<I am new here, so excuse me for asking a question that may have  
already been answered in the past...  While reading the first and 
second book, which I bought in the US,  I noticed that the author 
uses the word, "Soccer", to describe a sport.  The British use the 
word, "Football" to describe the same sport, so I am just wondering 
if the wording was changed for an American version of the books? Or 
did she write these books with American readers in mind?>>

The books have been 'translated' for American readers, as for readers 
in other countries.  They were originally written in British English, 
but the copies published in the USA have had a few words changed, 
such as the example you cited, to make the books easier to 
comprehend.  The most noticeable example is that the title of the 
first book, 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' in England, 
was changed to 'Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone' in America.  

Welcome to the list! 

~Blaise.      





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Sep 13 20:34:22 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:34:22 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] buck\stag & that Schrdinger thing (a bit OT)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000913203422.00726940@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1398

At 10:08 09/13/2000 +0100, Simon wrote:

>"The difference between a buck & a stag"

***

I have the Oxford Enclyclopedic English Dictionary and it confirms the
second of your definitions.  Stag usually (but not necessarily) refers to an
adult deer with antlers. Buck is the male of a number of animals, including
deer. 

Could I just add, in song: "Doe, a deer, a female deer, ray, a drop of
golden sun.  Me, a name I call myself, far, a long, long way to run, etc".

Aren't song lyrics hilarious?

________________

Turning time:

I'm amazed at the knowledge of this club's members.  There was a mention of
Schrdinger's Cat and suddenly half our members were revealing convincing
expertise in quantum mechanics.  Not only am I easily confused by that sort
of stuff, I must be a 'mundane' as well, as I was thrown by the time-turner
scenario (evidence lies in a post I made in the old Yahoo club). My brain
just stops working if it gets more complicated than that thing about
accidentally killing your own grandfather.  Imagine me thinking I could
understand the Star Trek universe...

Neil

  

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From davidgluck at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 20:53:02 2000
From: davidgluck at hotmail.com (David Gluck)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:53:02 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Harry Have a middle name
Message-ID: <F86C7lAhj16tFKHZgdO0000fa6c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1399

The Ravenclaw Ghost
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 10:19:19 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:19:19 +0200
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
References: <8pmupe+8l6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c01e35$40215480$9171023e@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1400

Well, I'm back again.  Meant to write up my ghosts yesterday, but I'd
forgotten a bored (sic) meeting.  Talk about spending an evening with a
wardrobe full of boggarts .... Anyway, here we go.  BTW, my English spell
checker is still out to lunch,
and I'm sleepy, too ... be warned!

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
In muggle vernacular, ghosts; more specifically, the ghosts living at
Hogwarts.  But enlightened muggles like ourselves know better, since there
are some ghost who aren't ghosts after all.  Peeves the Poltergeist is one:
to quote the Gray Lady: "he's not really even a ghost" (PS, ch. 7--I think
JKR said that was the GL talking).  There are two connected terms in the HP
lexicon: poltergeists (like Peeves) and ghouls (such as the Weasley's have
in their attic).

If I were going to stick to sound (common-sense) linguistics, I'd just grant
"ghost" two semantic domains (the first as a general term for the whole lot,
the seond as a specific designation for one of at least three kinds of
ghosts).  But "resident non-embodied persons" (RENEPs) has a pithiness to it
that makes a word like "ghost" sound boring.  Of course that raises the
question of whether the portaits also evince non-embodied personalities, so
just to keep things clear, I'll ammend that to resident non-embodied
persons, excepting portraits, or RENEPEP's.  Which is a very satisfying term
indeed.  It's not only politically correct; it's peppy.

[Thanks to the Sunday Chat gang for helping me get properly muddled about
this.]

WHO THEY ARE
In PS Ch. 7 we read that "about twenty ghosts had just streamed through the
back wall," so there are quite a few more Hogwarts ghosts than we've had the
pleasure of meeting.

The ghosts representing each of the four houses are Nearly Headless Nick
(Griffyndor), the Fat Friar (Hufflepuf), the Grey Lady (Ravenclaw), and The
Bloody Baron (Slytherin).  We've seen least of the Grey Lady.  In various
interviews (including 60 Minutes), JKR has assured us that the GL showed up
in the PS, only we weren't told her name.  The other three (partciularly
NHN) are introduced in the PS and put in regular appearances thereafter. The
Fat Friar comes across as sweet and dumb (he's the one for forgiving Peeves
at the beginning of the PS), and hence as a caricature of Hufflepuff
students. Why the Blood Baron is bloody, nobody wants to know, but he also
fits the Slytherin image of violent menace.

NHN doesn't embody the Hogwarts bravery as obviously as the FF and the BB,
although he is generous about helping Harry escape Filch in CoS.  As for his
personal history, he was not quite beheaded either 350+ or 499 years before
Harry enrolled at Hogwarts.  He is particularly prominent in CoS, where he
invites Harry, Ron and Hermione to his 500th deathday party and is later
petrified by the basilisk.  He would have died at the sight, if he hadn't
already been dead.

We know three other RENEPEP's who are not connected to any particular house:

Moaning Myrtel is pimple-afflicted and a victim of the basilisk's first
frisk through Hogwarts.  She shows up in CoS, where we learn her story, and
again in GoF, where she visits Harry in the prefects' bathroom and shows
evidence of a marked interest in naked prefects.

Prof. Binns of the Hogwarts history dept. is the only teaching ghost
(although one can question whether his students are actually taught anything
by him).  He's certainly the only soporific ghost.  Despite his own lack of
tangibility, Binns also is a stickler for good, hard facts: he soundly
denies the old stories about the Chamber of Secrets for lack of solid proof.
One curiosity about Binns: JKR has said that ghosts are unhappy people, and
most of them appear to have suffered violent deaths.  All but Binns: he just
died one night and went right on teaching the next day, sans body.  Could
the violence here be that he bored himself to death?

Peeves, as already pointed out, isn't a proper ghost but a poltergeist.  The
word means "mischeivous spirit", which is Peeves to a T.  The only person in
the castle who makes any real impression on him is the Bloody Baron. As
opposed to the other ghosts, he  comes in technicolor, rather than the
standard pearly-gray. He's also funny--Peeves filling in the gaps in the
singing armor's Christmas Carrols is one of GoF's funnier moments.  However,
Peeves has a sub-human personality: he delights in any evil events in the
castle (the petrifyings in CoS, the terror caused by Sirius Black in PoA)
and yet he is not exactly evil.  He's just not human enough to require moral
evaluation.  Hence, my guess is that he isn't a former human and prbably
belongs to an entirely different taxonomy as the proper ghosts.

WHAT WE'D LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT THEM
In one of her interviews, JKR said we'll learn why certain people become
ghosts in HP 7.  Does this mean the definitive answer will have some
particular
significance for the entire series?

There are a couple of ghost-related inconsistencies.  For instance, why does
Nearly Headless Nick have a his 500th deathday party in CoS after telling
Harry he hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years in PS?  (I think it's just a minor
inconsistency, but I've seen theories that range from believable to
hallucinatory.)  Another one: If ghosts can't eat or drink, how did they
administer the Mandrake Potion to Nearly Headless Nick?

Where do Poltergeists come from?

Baaaaaasta!  Any more ghosts and I'll end up one myself.

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat






From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 21:45:27 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:45:27 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <006c01c01e35$40215480$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8poshn+fmgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1401

>  Another one: If ghosts can't eat or drink, how did 
they
> administer the Mandrake Potion to Nearly Headless Nick?


They put it in an atomizer and sprayed it through him?

> Where do Poltergeists come from?

To quote one of my own theories posted earlier, poltergeists  (I
think 
it is literally 'noisy ghost' in German) are generally not associated 
with a visible manifestation, such as Peeves, but as uncontrolled 
'tossing things about' -perhaps even unconscious telekinesis, since 
poltergeists are primarily, if not entirely, associated with 
households containing children in the throes of adolescence.  I 
hypothesize that with so many generations of magically-talented 
adolescent wizards going through Hogwarts, that Peeves is a psychic 
amalgamation of all this into a sentient spirit form (which is why he 
is not really a ghost - he's more an elemental spirit).  Thus, while 
the answer to the question "Who was Casper before he became a ghost - 
was there a Casper the Friendly Dead Kid?",  the answer to the 
question "Who was Peeves before he died?" is that there was no 'live 
person' Peeves: Like Topsy (claims she did, anyway), he 'just
growed', 
albeit in non-material instead of human form.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 21:52:48 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:52:48 -0000
Subject: Do the British have a different version of the books than the Americans?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000913195929.0070f58c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8posvg+in2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1402

I was gonna write this up for the FAQ (for Book one, anyway) but 
haven't got 'round to it yet.  But to summarize some I remember off 
the top of my head:

Chapter 1 - Dumbledore is eating lemon drops in US version, lemon 
something else in British.  

I believe some of the various candy/sweets mention in the book get 
renamed between versions as well.

Note that a 'Knickerbocker Glory', however, which they get at the
zoo, 
is referred to in the US version as well, but it is not a recipe 
familiar to most US readers.

Mrs Dursley refuses to 'hoover' in Harry's room, instead of 'vacuum' 
in the US version, after he gets Hedwig.

In the US version the Weasleys get 'sweaters' at Christmas, as
opposed 
to 'jumpers' in the UK version (Jumper being a synonym for a sweater 
in the UK, but referring to a kind of girl's dress in the US!)

When preparing for finals in the US version the trio 'studies'; in
the 
UK version they 'revise'.

I need to finish that list, along with several other postponed 
self-appointed tasks....

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 21:55:09 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:55:09 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <8poshn+fmgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pot3t+orr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1403

I wrote:

>  Thus, while 
> the answer to the question "Who was Casper before he became a ghost 
- 
> was there a Casper the Friendly Dead Kid?", * the answer to the 


*  - insert the words "is unknown"

 -Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 13 22:01:20 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:01:20 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_buck\stag_&_that_Schr=F6dinger_thing_(a_bit_OT)?=
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000913203422.00726940@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8potfg+6nna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1404

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Neil Ward <neilward at d...> wrote:
 
> I'm amazed at the knowledge of this club's members.  There was a 
mention of
> Schr?dinger's Cat and suddenly half our members were revealing 
convincing
> expertise in quantum mechanics.  


In my case, I'd _better_ be able to remember and explain it, as I
have 
a postgraduate degree in engineering physics, and a lifetime of 
reading science fact and fiction!  

'No brag, just fact'*, but OTOH I am indeed ashamed of all the other 
things that I _can't_ remember anymore. :-(

-Brooks


*Stock phrase of Walter Brennan's character, 'Grandpa' Sonnet in 
_The Guns of Will Sonnet_, US television, late 1960's)




From farrago at msn.com  Wed Sep 13 22:07:18 2000
From: farrago at msn.com (Steve Wilson)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:07:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: RENEPEP's
References: <8pmupe+8l6c@eGroups.com> <006c01c01e35$40215480$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <007301c01dce$fb961780$bce2c69d@Wilsons>

No: HPFGUIDX 1405

> [...]
> and I'm sleepy, too ... be warned!
>
> WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
> In muggle vernacular, ghosts; more specifically, the ghosts living at
> Hogwarts.  [...]

Ghosts "living" at Hogwarts?  Residing would have been a better choice, but,
as you said, you were sleepy ...

Sorry, I couldn't resist.   *:^)





From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep 13 22:09:06 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:09:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <006c01c01e35$40215480$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEODCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1406

Outstanding summary, Mike ...err, Mr. Goat!  I laughed all the way through
it.

I also have a small addition/question -- can we consider the "forms" of
Voldemort's victims as ghosts, as well?  They certainly are the embodiments
of dead persons, even if only temporarily manifested.

And what about Harry's Patronus?  How did he manage to produce a patronus
that was the spitting image "ghost" of his dead father as the Stag Animagus?



=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.higherawareness.com/
Current Book:   "Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" by Amanda Foreman
Quote:  There may be a hundred things you know about a person -- all of them
bad. But there may be just one thing you don't know, which if you did know,
would completely change your opinion.
=============================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Aberforth's Goat [mailto:Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 3:19 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: RENEPEP's





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 23:05:36 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:05:36 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEODCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pp180+3ljf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1407

<<can we consider the "forms" of
> Voldemort's victims as ghosts, as well?  They certainly are the 
embodiments
> of dead persons, even if only temporarily manifested.
>>
> And what about Harry's Patronus?  How did he manage to produce a 
patronus
> that was the spitting image "ghost" of his dead father as the Stag 
Animagus?

I would say no to both of these questions.  The Patronus is 
definitely not a ghost; it doesn't have any personality or control of 
its own, and it disappears rather quickly if left to itself.  It is 
really a part of Harry, a projection of his positive emotions.  The 
fact that Harry's Patronus takes a stag form is just a result of 
Harry's genetic and emotional connection to his father.
As for the Priori Incantetum phantoms, I don't have GoF in front of 
me, but I remember Dumbledore specifically saying that these were not 
Harry's parents returned from the dead.  I don't think these phantoms 
have any life of their own; they just appear to by saying and doing 
what James and Lily *would* say and do if they were there.  It is a 
subtle difference, but, I think, an important one.  I would say the 
phantoms are merely preserved "memories" of Lily and James.  They are 
sinmilar to wizard photographs: they do things that appear to give 
them personality, but they are not truly sentient.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 00:30:55 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:30:55 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEODCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pp67v+co7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1408


> 
> I also have a small addition/question -- can we consider the 
"forms" of
> Voldemort's victims as ghosts, as well?  They certainly are the 
embodiments
> of dead persons, even if only temporarily manifested.
>
I would say that these are merely "shadows" of the fomer beings, not 
ghosts.  Though they do seem to be fully aware of their surroundings 
and their past. (i.e. the Frank Bryce (is that his name?) said 
something to the effect of "...so he is a wizard!  He killed me, that 
one, you get him boy.")  So while we are sure that they aren't ghosts 
we really don't know what they are.



> And what about Harry's Patronus?  How did he manage to produce a 
patronus
> that was the spitting image "ghost" of his dead father as the Stag 
Animagus?

This, as the previous post says, is a part of Harry that manifests 
itself as the memory of his dead father because that (though Harry 
doesn't realise it) is the memories of his parents which are really 
that happiest he has. 

(OT) I really can't picture that what's-his-name as being peeves, I 
was sort of thinkig that the supernatural beings would all be 
computer animated.

Scott




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Sep 14 00:39:15 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:39:15 +0100
Subject: Hart, knowledge and RENEPEP's
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEECCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1409

"I have the Oxford Encyclopaedic English Dictionary and it confirms the
second of your definitions.  Stag usually (but not necessarily) refers to an
adult deer with antlers. Buck is the male of a number of animals, including
deer."

In giving out these deer definitions I forgot the most important one of the
lot to me.

Hart: Male deer - usually referring to a male red deer of 5 or more years.

"I'm amazed at the knowledge of this club's members.  There was a mention of
Schrdinger's Cat and suddenly half our members were revealing convincing
expertise in quantum mechanics."

It never ceases to amaze me the knowledge known by people in this group.
When I have a question there always seems to be plenty of people able to
answer.

"Why the Blood Baron is bloody, nobody wants to know, but he also fits the
Slytherin image of violent menace."

It is not that people do not want to know; it is that no one is willing to
ask. Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington says that he has never asked (PS Ch7),
in reply to a question from Seamus.

"For instance, why does Nearly Headless Nick have a his 500th deathday party
in CoS after telling Harry he hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years in PS?"

I think the most convincing argument that I have seen is that the can eat
but have no need to. This fits with the comments Sir Nicholas de
Mimsy-Porpington makes at the first feast. Which solves the mystery of the
administration of the Mandrake Potion to Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington.

Simon

PS: And when will we get petrol again?

PPS: Has anyone worked out the significance of the definition of hart?




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 00:59:02 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:59:02 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <8pp180+3ljf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pp7sm+p44i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1410

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...>  
wrote: 

"can we consider the "forms" of Voldemort's victims as ghosts, as 
well?  They certainly are the   embodiments   of dead persons, even
if 
only temporarily manifested.  And what about Harry's Patronus?  How 
did he manage to produce a   patronus   that was the spitting image 
"ghost" of his dead father as the Stag   Animagus?  As for the Priori 
Incantetum phantoms, I don't have GoF in front of   me, but I
remember 
Dumbledore specifically saying that these were   not   Harry's
parents 
returned from the dead.  I don't think these   phantoms   have any 
life of their own; they just appear to by saying and doing   what 
James and Lily *would* say and do if they were there.  It is a   
subtle difference, but, I think, an important one.  I would say the   
phantoms are merely preserved "memories" of Lily and James.  They   
are   similar to wizard photographs: they do things that appear to 
give   them personality, but they are not truly sentient."

Dumbledore described them as "echos" of the persons killed, similar
to 
a memory. This could mean they have similarities to the "memory" or 
"echo" that Tom Riddle put into the diary in Chamber of Secrets.
Could 
these memories have been stored more permanently in some way the way 
Riddle's was? 

I believe that Lupin told Harry that a Patronus was positive energy 
that took a form unique to its creator.




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Thu Sep 14 01:02:11 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:02:11 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem
Message-ID: <8pp82j+cac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1411

All this talk about the echoes of the priori incantatem triggered a 
question that I don't believe has ever been mentioned.  If the echoes 
of last spells cast by Voldy's wand came out, shouldn't there have  
*some* sort of echo of the aveda kedavra he tried to use on Harry? It 
would have been after Bertha Jorkin's echo and just before James' 
echo.  Or is it only successful spells that remain in the wand?  
Since it failed abysmally, would it not count towards the priori?  

My own personal belief in the seemingly reverse order of James and 
Lily in the priori can be expained by Harry himself. "And now another 
head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand...and Harry knew 
when he saw it who it would be...(snip) because the man appearing was 
the one *he'd thought of more than any other tonight*...

We all know how Harry's innate magic makes things happen unexpectedly 
during times of great emotional stress.  Well, of all the stressful 
events in Harry's life, going face to face with Voldy after 
witnessing him cold-bloodedly kill Cedric has to be the most 
stressful.  My belief is that Harry needed to see his Dad first and 
unknowingly caused him to emerge before Lily. 

Just my 2 knuts

Trina
   




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 01:16:43 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:16:43 -0000
Subject: sex and the faculty recruitment problem at Hogworts...
In-Reply-To: <8pmuhp+ano1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pp8tr+1va7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1412

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
I 
> think it is not true that all of the teachers are single: I think 
> McGonagall and Hooch have been a couple since they were in their 
> early 20s (and that they used to have a series of pet cats 
> all named Tommy until Minnie became an Animagus and Hoochie got 
> irrationally jealous that Minnie and Tommy might be talking behind 
> her back in Cat --- which I suggested long before someone else 
> suggested that Crookshanks might be McGonagall's lovechild!).

It's an original theory, Rita, I'll say that.

We just don't know. JKR has modeled Hogwarts in most ways on the 
English private school system, which for many of the teachers was 
historically a monastic lifestyle. ("Goodbye Mr. Chips" type folks)

If the advocates of a 300 member student body are right, or even if 
I'm (450-500) right, there is a great deal of room in the castle for 
teacher's apartments. Any teacher with a family can stroll down to 
Hogsmeade to his little cottage or even Apparate from there, outside 
the grounds.  

There's a zillion ways teachers could have families, we just haven't 
been told. JKR condenses a year of Harry's life into 300+ or 700+ 
pages, and of necessity leaves out more than she puts in.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 01:28:52 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:28:52 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8pp82j+cac@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pp9kk+5784@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1413

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g... wrote:
 "And now another  head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's 
wand...and Harry knew   when he saw it who it would be...(snip) 
because the man appearing   was   the one *he'd thought of more than 
any other tonight*...    We all know how Harry's innate magic makes 
things happen   unexpectedly   during times of great emotional
stress. 
 Well, of all the stressful   events in Harry's life, going face to 
face with Voldy after   witnessing him cold-bloodedly kill Cedric has 
to be the most   stressful.  My belief is that Harry needed to see
his 
Dad first and   unknowingly caused him to emerge before Lily.    
Just 
my 2 knuts   "
That's a reasonable theory. Harry would want to see his father at a 
time like that.

Voldemort said explicitly in PS/SS that he killed James first. 
Voldemort didn't have much motivation to lie at the time so he 
probably was telling the truth as he believed it.  If James wasn't 
killed first, how could it have happened? Voldemort may not have used 
Avada Kedavra on James for some reason, (died when the house blew up) 
or maybe James was actually the first person to survive it, at least 
for a while. There's holes in that idea: if James survived it, even 
for a moment, the spell should have backfired at least a little and 
Voldemort would have known it.  OTOH, I can't come up with a 
reasonable objection to your theory.




From open2uandu at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 01:39:42 2000
From: open2uandu at aol.com (open2uandu at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:39:42 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do the British have a different version of the books ...
Message-ID: <47.c45f41.26f1865e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1414

In a message dated 9/13/00 5:44:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
brooksar at indy.net writes:

<< I was gonna write this up for the FAQ (for Book one, anyway) but 
 haven't got 'round to it yet.  But to summarize some I remember off 
 the top of my head: >>

Thanks!  I love this kind of stuff.

Nan



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Sep 14 01:46:50 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:46:50 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8pp82j+cac@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ppama+t521@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1415

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
 shouldn't there have  been
> *some* sort of echo of the aveda kedavra he tried to use on Harry?

How do we know that the shade Harry takes for James Potter is James 
Potter? Harry assumes that it is, but couldn't he be making the same 
mistake he made at the end of PoA? My theory is, what Harry is seeing 
is the echo of the failed aveda kedavra curse, and what appears is 
Harry as a grown up, because that's who Voldemort was trying to 
eliminate. Or alternatively, he sees himself in the form of James 
because >>Your father is alive in you, Harry,and shows himself most 
plainly when you have need of him.<< Hope this is not too confusing.





From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Thu Sep 14 01:42:38 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:42:38 -0400
Subject: Daemons in Egroups?  Or is it yahoo's escaping?
References: <8poshn+fmgr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003501c01ded$1997b040$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1416

Hi.  Wonder if anyone else has seen this today?  Alot of the egroup messages I am getting, including my own(!), are arriving 6 hours late!  This is also occurring over on the clubs side of Yahoo.  Is there a correlation, perhaps?  Or am I the only one caught in the "let's annoy our members" trap again?  (LOL.  J/K, btw, but it is annoying...)

Thanks for answering.  This is part of the reason we came to egroups -- to avoid the daemons!

:&

Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 01:47:55 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:47:55 -0000
Subject: HP School Update
Message-ID: <8ppaob+1j6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1417

Thanks Heidi for the link to the articles about schools that are 
restricting HP.  

Dee, to answer your question from about 100 posts ago (I've been 
offline), this is what has happened.

One parent has expressed concern.  I've e-mailed her and talked to 
the child.  I haven't heard anything back, but from the contact I 
believe she is of a similar mindset to one of my evangelical parents 
from last year.  The parents actually read SS after my chat with her 
(hmm, there's an idea!) and OKed the novel.

The name of the game in public education is CYA--if you don't know 
what that acronym stands for, e-mail me.  :)  Normally censorship and 
other such issues were luxuries that districts much more priveliged 
than ours had to deal with.  But as our school is in a bit of legal 
trouble right now (no, I'm not directly involved--at least not yet), 
I'll issue permission slips mid-October for the HP unit.

I haven't had any major problems so far with doing novels in class.  
Nevertheless, an older colleague told me she stopped doing novels in 
class after a local suburban kids committed suicide and the novel he 
was reading in English class was blamed.  I could get on my soapbox 
about the unfairness of teachers being blamed for underage society's 
ills (e.g. Why don't doctors get blamed because they haven't found a 
cure for death yet?--etc.), but this isn't my computer.  :)

Just keep me and HP in your thoughts and prayers.  I'd really like to 
do this unit again but don't want to walk into a land mine field.  
And in defense of the parents who hate HP--they're not killjoys, just 
people who love their kids the best way they know how.  They 
genuinely believe that these books will do their kids harm.  Since 
they and I share a common faith, and I can "speak their language", 
most of the disgrunted parents so far see that my aim in presenting 
this unit is not proselytization.  HP fits *very* well into the 
overarching bimonthly thematic unit in November-December.  And 
besides, it's just plain fun to teach.

Hope this helps any lurking teacher out there considering bringing HP 
into the classroom.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 02:25:36 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:25:36 -0000
Subject: HP School Update
In-Reply-To: <8ppaob+1j6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ppcv0+qo4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1418

-Hurrah Ebony!
 
 I must say that I really commend you.  Anyway I'm glad that you wont 
give in to the pressures that may be Anti-Harry because if the book 
can instill in just one kid a life long love of reading then it will 
all be worth it.  Keep trying and things will work out- they always 
do.  I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers, not only because I 
want those kids to read HP but because I *know * that you would make 
the unit LOTS of fun and I wish I could be in your class.  

BTW, can you tell me what the kids whose parents will not allow them 
read to the books during the HP series will do?  


Scott




From jciesla at madbbs.com  Thu Sep 14 03:47:50 2000
From: jciesla at madbbs.com (Julia L. Ciesla)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:47:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP School Update
In-Reply-To: <8ppcv0+qo4h@eGroups.com>
References: <8ppaob+1j6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000913234750.007bbb10@mail.madbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1419

Hello!

First time I believe I've posted.  So hello everyone :-)  I've really
enjoyed the series of posts so far.  Helps me remember the series!

Anywho, the teaching thread is what led me to post.  My mother teaches in a
Catholic School and HP SS is now a highly anticipated book.  Of course,
most of her kids have read it out of shear verocity for the series.. but
now they get to learn it.  No complaints.. no threatening parents telling
her she's teaching their kids to be Satan-incarnate.. and it's at a
Religious school!  Hmmmmm... of course it could be all due to the fact that
she's a teacher in NY state.  No offense to the Southern States.. but there
does seem to be more frequency in the Bible belt for banning books.  My 2
cents.

But it's nice to be on this list.  Quite lovely!

Julia




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 04:07:13 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:07:13 GMT
Subject: Post of many subjects (take two)
Message-ID: <F14993ogKOWBVzNm0H90000c1f6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1420


1. [ot] hallo from sunny but insane sydney - the torch has aquired a 
personality and it feted everywhere (urgh!)

2. in the uk edition dumbledore eats sherbet lemon. Which is different to 
lemon drops as it is fuzzy (sp?) rather than a boiled sweet

3. I didn't know that Jumpers were a type of girls' dress - Amazing. In Aust 
they are also sometimes a kind of all over suit for babies. But mostly they 
are pullovers

4. I think that the atomiser would be the right way to get NHN back on his 
feet again (em). Rememeber prof McGonnagall (sp) wafting him to sick bay in 
front of a fan?

5. In all my readings of british boarding stories I nevr remember any of the 
teachers being married - when they married they left the school. on the 
other hand when I was a kid at school I didn't know or care whether the 
teachers were married, had kids or blue two legged ponies for pets. I was 
only interested in them for me. As JKR writes from the child's prespective 
maybe lack on interest (on the part of Harry and his friends) in sex (so 
far) has limited our view of Hogwarts.

6. Lori and co - Just real ASA and POU - congratulations. they were great.

7. Mike, Mr Goat - Love your post ('me too, me too')

back to the work

storm
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From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Sep 14 05:09:56 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:09:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Post of many subjects (take two)
Message-ID: <v02140b1eb5e60df84f0b@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1421


>6. Lori and co - Just real ASA and POU - congratulations. they were great.
>
I'm glad you liked them.  Congratulate Penny and Carole for their great
work on ASA...I'm sure they'd prefer not to be known as my "co"!  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Bonnie Tyler
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep 14 04:17:29 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:17:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Daemons in Egroups? / Harts
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000914041729.00712d9c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1422

At 21:42 09/13/2000 -0400, Dee wrote:

"Hi.  Wonder if anyone else has seen this today?  Alot of the egroup
messages I am getting, including my own(!), are arriving 6 hours late!  This
is also occurring over on the clubs side of Yahoo.  Is there a correlation,
perhaps?  Or am I the only one caught in the "let's annoy our members" trap
again?  (LOL.  J/K, btw, but it is annoying...)"

****

There could be a connection with the Yahoo system problems, since the two
are merging.

When I checked on ParadigmOfUncertainty during the day, it told me the
messages weren't available.  It was okay later on. 

On a few occasions, when accessing from my workplace, I have been unable to
access egroups - it just hangs - but I put that down to a problem with my
computer.

In this club, I posted a reply concerning UK/US books which then appeared in
the e-mail list. A while later I received a similar message posted by
Blaise.  Even allowing for the fact that she has her system set to GMT and I
have mine in BST, she still posted her message before mine, but mine
appeared to reach the list first (I know, because I checked to see if anyone
had already answered Helena's post). I concluded that Blaise must have a
time-turner.

_____________________

Simon was getting into defining deer, and mentioned that the definition of
'hart' was significant.  Assuming he meant in reference to HP, the only
things I can think of is that a hart is a red deer and red is in the
Gryffindor colours and that Harry will be in his fifth year at Hogwarts next
year, but that's probably not what he was getting at.  BTW, my dictionary
says that hart is a male deer (especially a red deer). I dunno Simon -
what's the answer?

Talking of my dictionary, it refers to itself as "Encyclopedic".  I'm
assuming that Simon's spellchecker had corrected it to "Encyclopaedic".
Most references on English usage say that the former of these spellings is
taking precedence. I wonder if this is due to the American influence or a
natural tendency to modernisation of British English?  

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 04:50:57 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:50:57 -0000
Subject: interviews on AOL?
Message-ID: <8pplfh+irgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1423

Anyone else seen the interviews on AOL with JKR?

She talks about the incredible bravery of Harry in rescuing Cedric's 
body and that it was inspired by the Hektor/Akhilles scene in the 
Iliad...

She says that she is in fact a left winger, but not a Wiccan.


that she waffled about the title of Book IV -- Doomspell Tournament 
became Triwizard Tournament......in the end she preferred Goblet of 
Fire because it's got that kind of cup of destiny feel about it, 
which is the heme of the book...

Susan McGee,
Ann Arbor, Michigan




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 05:21:56 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:21:56 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Post of many subjects (take two)
Message-ID: <F166KZmcK8r6beUzmRf0000bda8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1424


sorry Penny and Carole - who are not co at all - I can't access that site 
from work and couldn't remember who had written what

storm

----Original Message Follows----
From: summers.65 at osu.edu
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Post of many subjects (take two)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:09:56 -0500


 >6. Lori and co - Just read ASA and POU - congratulations. they were great.
 >
I'm glad you liked them.  Congratulate Penny and Carole for their great
work on ASA...I'm sure they'd prefer not to be known as my "co"!  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

         I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Bonnie Tyler
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                                "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry 
Jenkins
***********************************************************



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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Sep 14 06:24:01 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:24:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] interviews on AOL?
Message-ID: <v02140b21b5e61f48605d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1425


>that she waffled about the title of Book IV -- Doomspell Tournament
>became Triwizard Tournament......in the end she preferred Goblet of
>Fire because it's got that kind of cup of destiny feel about it,
>which is the heme of the book...
>
>Susan McGee,
>Ann Arbor, Michigan
>
Yes, but I've always maintained that it was dumb to name the book after
such a small and almost incidental object.  It's like having named the
first book "Harry Potter and the Mirror of Erised."

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Bonnie Tyler
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 02:10:21 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:10:21 GMT
Subject: everything - sex, jumpers, NHN and lemons sheret etc
Message-ID: <F60WYOLU2RnXlBMupu10000c3b9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1426


1. [ot] Hallo to everyone from manic syndey - 'the torch' (has become a 
person) passed by my work this morning to the great joy of almost everyone. 
scary stuff.
2. Mr Goat - Love the summary ('me too, me too!')
3. It's Shebet Lemon in the British edition (my train reading this am)
which is actually a different kind of sweet to a lemon drop. sherbet being 
the stuff that fizzes (sp?) and the lemon drop being more like a boiled 
sweet (IMHO)
4. Is a jumper really a girl's dress? How fabulous! In Australia jumpers can 
also be baby suits - those all over covering things. But mostly they are for 
jumpers (sweaters)
5. I love the theory about the atomiser and NHN - and I think it is right. 
after all NHN must have some substance as to get him to sick bay McGonagall 
ordered that he be wafted in front of a fan
6. I would be surprised if James had every transformed into Prongs in front 
of baby Harry (after all it was a few months after H's first birthday that J 
and L died). More likely a connection of another kind rather than a direct 
memory
7. sex and the single teacher - in those wonderful/terrible 50's english 
girls baording school stories - of which I read many - the teachers are 
always single and leave to go off and get married. OTOH it could be that 
because the story is written from the children's persepctive that detail 
doesn't appear as relevant. At least I don't remember being at all 
interested in the lives of my teachers outside thier connection with me
8. (really the end) Lori and/or the other authours.   I finally read ASA and 
POU and loved them, stayed up far too late and read them off the computer 
screen

storm



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From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 10:52:24 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:52:24 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
Message-ID: <8pqal8+rujo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1427

Just looking around today, and I noticed quite a few religious 
affiliated Potter hate groups. Can anyone tell me what people of 
religious groups find so threatening about the series? I went into 
some of the sights to find out, but they were basically pulling at 
threads. I am still at a loss, I'm afraid.
Helena




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 11:32:58 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 06:32:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem
References: <8ppama+t521@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C0B76A.89022995@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1428

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Trina " <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
>  How do we know that the shade Harry takes for James Potter is James
> Potter? Harry assumes that it is, but couldn't he be making the same
> mistake he made at the end of PoA?

Interesting idea, but I don't find it convincing, specifically because the
shade says "Your mother is coming."  That to me argues that the source is
James.  Somehow.

Peg




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 13:15:29 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 13:15:29 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)  
Message-ID: <8pqj1h+svfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1429

On another egroup that I belong to (hpslash), someone who was at the 
Edinburgh Book Festival posted a message about some of the things JKR 
said about the books, and I thought you might be rather interested...

<<Oh you won't believe this cos it's taken me so long to tell you all 
but I actually met JK Rowling about a month ago. I went up to 
Edinburgh for the book festival and went to one of her readings!  
Luckily I wasn't the only semi grown up there otherwise it could've 
been quite embarrassing... here's some possible spoilers that she let 
slip...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

*
*
*
*
*
*
*

 - Mrs Figg is a squib.  Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is 
gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole thing with Harry's 
eyes!  She says Snape could still turn out to be either bad or good 
but she's not telling us which.  The really big death comes in book 
five.  She has already written the very final chapter of the whole 
series.  The Dark Mark chapter in the GoF was a killer for her to 
write - she rewrote it about 9 times and ended up thinking she'd 
never be able to finish it.>>

Isn't that interesting?  A really big death in 5 - Lupin?  (please 
no!) Ron?  Dumbledore?  Sirius?  I wonder whether whoever it is will 
hang around as a ghost (tying this in with our discussion of the 
week).  

And what is there to know about Godric's Hollow except that the 
Potters used to live there?  Godric Gryffindor ... could Harry be a 
descendent?  

Could Mrs Figg be the person who manages to do magic in desperate 
circumstances?  And what about Arabella Figg ... this would suggest 
that Mrs Figg is a relative rather than being Arabella, though I 
suppose Dumbledore might have a Squib in his League for his own 
reasons.  

And just to let you know, I've now completed 'A Second Chance,' and 
you can read it at http://www.fanfiction.net if you do a search for 
the title.  

~Blaise.  






From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 14 14:27:22 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:27:22 -0000
Subject: Egroups problems
Message-ID: <8pqn8a+dhfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1430

Several of my other lists (which are all under one owner) forwarded a 
message from egroups last night which states in essence that egroups' 
ISP had two power failures in the space of a few hours, and when they 
finally got the system back up, one of the servers which had some 
portion of the member lists was corrupted.  That had to be restored 
from backup, so there was a several hour period where egroups had a 
variety of problems, and was un-responsive.  I suspect that 
particular listowner had sent a query, and received that message, 
rather than it being automatically sent to all listowners.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 14 15:52:27 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:52:27 -0000
Subject: Chamber of Secrets finally published in Japan(ese)
Message-ID: <8pqs7r+9a9o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1431

http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center_story.html?FRONTID=ASIA&STORYID=APIS7
70B8NO0




From particle at urbanet.ch  Thu Sep 14 16:19:31 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:19:31 +0200
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEECCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <006d01c01e67$911dfbe0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1432

> I think the most convincing argument that I have seen is that the can eat
> but have no need to. This fits with the comments Sir Nicholas de
> Mimsy-Porpington makes at the first feast. Which solves the mystery of the
> administration of the Mandrake Potion to Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington.

But then, wouldn't the ghosts at his Deathday Party be eating and drinking,
instead of just trying to?

<Voldemort said explicitly in PS/SS that he killed James first.
Voldemort didn't have much motivation to lie at the time so he
probably was telling the truth as he believed it.  If James wasn't
killed first, how could it have happened? Voldemort may not have used
Avada Kedavra on James for some reason, (died when the house blew up)
or maybe James was actually the first person to survive it, at least
for a while. There's holes in that idea: if James survived it, even
for a moment, the spell should have backfired at least a little and
Voldemort would have known it.  OTOH, I can't come up with a
reasonable objection to your theory.>

GoF, The Parting of the Ways, Dumbledore:

"If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...<snip>
One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has
performed - in reverse."

Even if James didn't die immediately, since the spell that eventually killed
him (we think) came before the Killing Curse that killed Lily, shouldn't he
still emerge after she did?

~Firebolt





From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 16:50:27 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:50:27 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
In-Reply-To: <006d01c01e67$911dfbe0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8pqvkj+8s43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1433


> 
> Even if James didn't die immediately, since the spell that
eventually killed
> him (we think) came before the Killing Curse that killed Lily,
shouldn't he
> still emerge after she did?
> 
> ~Firebolt

That seems right; even if James somehow managed to linger on in a not-
quite-dead state after Voldemort performed the Avada Kedavra curse on 
him, the wand still regurgitates spells in-the-order-performed, 
ergo...Lily first, then James. I'm only saying this because I've
heard 
the not-quite-dead-James arguement before and thought "that doesn't 
work."--cassandra





From warmsley at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 14 16:02:03 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:02:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary: RENEPEP's
Message-ID: <01c01e65$1fd421a0$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1434

>There are a couple of ghost-related inconsistencies.  For
instance, why does
>Nearly Headless Nick have a his 500th deathday party in CoS
after telling
>Harry he hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years in PS?  (I think it's
just a minor
>inconsistency, but I've seen theories that range from
believable to
>hallucinatory.)

Perhaps he lived to a very old age? It'd fit in with my theory
(back me up, Blaise!) that wizards live to a longer age than
Muggles...

Jeremy




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 14 19:54:41 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:54:41 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <01c01e65$1fd421a0$0100007f@warmsley>
Message-ID: <8prae1+kraf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1435

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Warmsley" <warmsley at b...> wrote:
> >There are a couple of ghost-related inconsistencies.  For
> instance, why does
> >Nearly Headless Nick have a his 500th deathday party in CoS
> after telling
> >Harry he hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years in PS?  (I think it's
> just a minor
> >inconsistency, but I've seen theories that range from
> believable to
> >hallucinatory.)
> 
> Perhaps he lived to a very old age? It'd fit in with my theory
> (back me up, Blaise!) that wizards live to a longer age than
> Muggles...
> 
> Jeremy

I was thinking maybe one year to a human would be equivalent to a 
hundred years for a ghost.  However, if we follow this, by CoS, NHN 
would have been dead only five years, and this doesn't fit with his 
Shakespearean clothes.  So, just a minor inconsistency, right?  I 
can't imagine how this could be a clue for later...

Kelley




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 20:07:12 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:07:12 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8pqj1h+svfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prb5g+3oig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1436

--That is really interesting! I am suprised though that JKR would let 
that much slip!  

DEATHS: Biggest death that I think could happen would be Harry but 
that really can't happen in book 5 (for obvious reasons...).  Here's 
a thought- What if Voldemort dies in book 5.  I mean that would be a 
major death wouldn't it...This however is a VERY unfounded theory 
which I fully expect to be pulled apart.

GODRIC'S HOLLOW: What significance does this have...Now come on 
"siriusly" it MUST be the home of Gryffindor himself.  ((OF) from 
this post but did everyone relise that not only did Harry pull 
Gryf.'s sword out of the sorting hat but that the Hat itself was 
Gryf.'s...) Otherwise we know that Harry's parents lived their...Who 
knows maybe one of the books will be set here.  I would love to see 
that!

MISS FIGG, SNAPE AND GHOSTS: Well this does prove that miss Figg 
isn't an accidental character. (But JKR doesn't really have any of 
those does she?)...I'm still thinking that Snape will turn out to be 
evil, then possibly do a switch-a-roo in the end and be good once 
more, or vice versa...and the ONLY way the death of a loved character 
(i.e. Ron, Gred, Forge, Dumbledore etc.) could NOT crucify JKR is if 
they came back as a ghost and were able to help Harry in a big way 
because of it...I'm not looking for this to happen because they don't 
seem to be in a bad way which most ghosts were in life. (And if you 
said that ghosts come back to help, the unfinished work deal, then 
James and Lily would surely of come back...)

EYES: Green seems to be the colour of evil and it is also the colour 
of Lily and now Harry's eyes...look for more importance

MEETING JKR: Aren't you lucky! I entered the contest and I'm doing a 
REALLY big fingers crossed that I might- in a million years, probably 
not I wouldn't bet anything on it- win and get to meet her I would 
REALLY LOVE THAT!!!!

Ah, well I've bored y'all long enough....

Scott

Blaise wrote-
 Mrs Figg is a squib.  Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is 
gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole thing with 
Harry's eyes!  She says Snape could still turn out to be either bad 
or good  but she's not telling us which.  The really big death comes 
in book five.  She has already written the very final chapter of the 
whole series.  The Dark Mark chapter in the GoF was a killer for her 
to write - she rewrote it about 9 times and ended up thinking she'd 
 never be able to finish it.
 Isn't that interesting?  A really big death in 5 - Lupin?  (please 
 no!) Ron?  Dumbledore?  Sirius?  I wonder whether whoever it is 
will  hang around as a ghost (tying this in with our discussion of 
the  week).  

And what is there to know about Godric's Hollow except that the 
Potters used to live there?  Godric Gryffindor ... could Harry be a 
 descendent?  
 





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 14 20:10:59 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:10:59 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <8pqal8+rujo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1437

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, hgiammarco at h... wrote:
> Just looking around today, and I noticed quite a few religious 
> affiliated Potter hate groups. Can anyone tell me what people of 
> religious groups find so threatening about the series? I went into 
> some of the sights to find out, but they were basically pulling at 
> threads. I am still at a loss, I'm afraid.
> Helena

The best I can figure, people have the image of witches, etc., in the 
old-fashioned sense.  Dark, evil, eating children, fairy-tale stuff.  
They lump this image in with devil-worship, voodoo, vampirism, and so 
forth.  All they see is:  BAD.  They don't have first hand knowledge 
of this, just folklore and pop culture ideas.  This carries over into 
the popularity of Goth, and goth music, which I can't say I really 
find very pleasant.  Then, of course there's Columbine.  These kids 
supposedly listened to goth music.  There's a lot to be scared of out 
there, especially for our kids.  To these people it's all just 
wrong.  Belief in God is very important to these people, and 
witchcraft is counter to that, they believe.  Bottom line, I think 
it's just big worry about their kids.  I can absolutely understand 
that, but I don't think HP is leading us on the path to hell.  ;o]

Kelley




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 14 20:28:55 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:28:55 -0500
Subject: Kathy's H/H Evidence Request
References: <8ph2qj+3vp6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C13507.5D084597@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1438

Hi --

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> Kathy--I wasn't ignoring your request; it's just that I've been
> behind with the posts and my own e-mails for the past 4-5 days.  I
> sent my observations to Penny just to make sure that I wasn't being
> redundant.  I think she knows just about every shred of H/H evidence
> in existence.  :)  If I find out that this hasn't been brought up,
> I'll post it.

Oops!  I just now was cleaning out old emails, and it looks as though
Ebony was looking to me to say that her new evidence had or had not
already been discussed.  It has not.  But, since I know Ebony has 10
million things going on, I'll take a stab at repeating what she sent to
me last week.  Sorry for the delay Kathy!  <g>

Ebony was pointing to Harry's behavior in the 2nd task.  She pointed out
Harry's train of thought & priorities when he arrived at the hostage
scene at the bottom of the lake -

1.  He first wanted to complete the task.  He cut Ron loose.  He looked
around and didn't see any of the other 3 champions . . . .

2.  What he didn't do next -- he didn't take Ron to the surface & save
him before returning to be the noble hero; he didn't start chopping away
at Cho's bindings, which "to me would have been the logical thing for
him to do *if* he was so infatuated with her.  His rescue of Cho would
have been the perfect way to undercut a boy who at this point in the
novel he is very competitive with."  (Quotes are from Ebony's email to
me).

3.  What he did -- instinctively, reflexively he turns to Hermione.  His
friendship & feelings for her overrode "the desire to win, the desire to
bring Ron back up to the surface, and his longing for Cho."

Ebony also points to Hermione's reaction after they all get out of the
lake.  Krum continues to try & get her attention ("Hey!  Look at me -- I
just *saved* you!"), but the only person she wants to talk to is Harry.
<g>

While I don't find the above to be the most compelling H/H evidence
there is, it is interesting & noteworthy, especially when combined with
all the other H/H evidence in the books.  And, speaking of which, you'll
all soon be able to see all that evidence & more in our handy dandy
FAQs.  The FAQs Committee is hard at work at the 60 some-odd substantive
FAQs that will hopefully be posted sometime in early to mid October.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 21:03:17 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:03:17 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
In-Reply-To: <8pqvkj+8s43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8preel+pm2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1439

<<I've
> heard 
> the not-quite-dead-James arguement before and thought "that doesn't 
> work."--cassandra>>

I agree completely; most of the explanations I have heard for the 
order that the Potters came out of the wand involve either James 
being hit by some kind of spell that didn't kill him immediately (and 
I don't think there is such a spell, otherwise it would be one of the 
Unforgiveable Curses), or James being first incapacitated by 
Voldermort somehow, then Lily being killed, then Voldemort finishing 
off James, then trying to kill Harry.  This is much too convoluted.  
Voldy would have had no possible reason for temporarily 
incapacitating James if he was going to kill him anyway.  Either he 
killed Lily first or then James, or James and then Lily.  I would 
favor the first two of these possibilities for several reasons.
First, there is evidence that Voldemort was after James and Harry, 
and not Lily.  He even said himself that he only killed Lily because 
she was defending Harry, although he may have been lying.  But if he 
was telling the truth, it would fit in nicely with the "Harry and 
James are Gryffindor's heirs" theory, which I like but am not sure is 
100% correct.
Second, it would have made sense for James to try to hold Voldy off 
while his wife and child tried to get away, which would mean Voldy 
killed James first and then attacked Harry and Lily.  In the interest 
of gender equality, I guess I should at least consider the 
possibility that Lily held Voldy off while James went off with the 
baby, but James is the better wizard, making him more qualified to go 
mano a mano with Voldy, and if part of the reason Harry survived was 
that his mother died trying to protect him, it is implied that she 
was actually physically standing in Voldy's way as he tried to get to 
Harry.  So Lily being the one to take Harry and run/hide is more 
likely.
Thirdly, Voldy himself said that he killed James first.  He could 
have been lying, but he has no motive that we know of, and Harry's 
own recollections of the event, though probably faulty, corroborate 
what Voldy said.
Although the order Lily and James came out of the wand implies that 
Lily died first, I think that the order was just reversed somehow, 
and the explanation for that is Harry himself.  But I'll leave my 
theories on how Harry could have influened the order for another 
post, while I try to collect my thoughts on the matter.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Sep 14 20:59:09 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:59:09 +0100
Subject: ghost food, godric's hollow, death in book 5,  hart and spelling
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEEHCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1440

"But then, wouldn't the ghosts at his Deathday Party be eating and drinking,
instead of just trying to?"

Just because they eat the food does mean they can actually taste it. They
pass through the rotten food in CoS to try and get some taste of it. The
idea being that 'dead' food has some sort of ghost existence.

"Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is gonna be very important"

Does this mean that Harry also owns a broken down old house and some land in
Wales? No one has mentioned what happened to the house after Harry was taken
from it.

"A really big death in 5 - Lupin?  (please no!) Ron?  Dumbledore?  Sirius?"

We can all go back to speculating on who is going to die in the next book.
We got it so totally wrong for book 4 that there is little chance of us
doing any better this time round! Shall I for completeness say now that it
will be George Weasley (he was my predication for book 4)?

"Simon was getting into defining deer, and mentioned that the definition of
'hart' was significant.  Assuming he meant in reference to HP ... I dunno
Simon - what's the answer?"

Ah! A slight mistake was made in the assumption. This has nothing to do with
HP.
I am studying at Hertford College and the college crest is a Hart on a red
background.

"Talking of my dictionary, it refers to itself as "Encyclopedic".  I'm
assuming that Simon's spellchecker had corrected it to "Encyclopaedic". Most
references on English usage say that the former of these spellings is taking
precedence. I wonder if this is due to the American influence or a natural
tendency to modernisation of British English?"

I have my spell checker set up to correct before sending and I would
normally only correct bits that I have written. This must have got past
while I was not concentrating. I personally would normally use encyclopaedic
and other British spellings. The main inconsistency I have is in the use of
ize/ise. I use both, sometimes in the same sentence, and am never sure which
is which.

Simon

PS: The Olympics starts soon. Now to sort out a sleeping pattern that means
I can watch all the action. This may even give me some quality computer time
to get to some serious work on the FAQ's.




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 21:50:41 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:50:41 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <8pjb99+h7lr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prh7h+cho6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1441

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> Actually, this isn't fiction: as far as contemporary physics knows 
> now, time travel to the future but not back is definitely 
possible.  
> The only limitation to this type of time travel is its current 
> technological impossibility.  But it is known that if you travel 
> close enough to the speed of light, you could go as far into the 
> future as you want; there is just no proven way of returning to 
your 
> present.

I dont think this is entirely accurate; if you travel close to the 
speed of light your time reference is different so that what to you 
is one hour (for example) will be several hours to someone else who 
is standing still.  Therefore, the person standing still will age 
much faster than you.  In other words, if you are traveling close to 
the speed of light you will age very slowly as compared to a person 
who is not moving, therefore you will live much longer and be able to 
experience more of the future than the person who will have a shorter 
life span.  This is not really the same as traveling into the future, 
but perhaps in some metaphysical sense it is the same thing.  And, as 
Steve says, there is no way to return to the present; as far as 
contemporary physics knows, time travels in only one direction.




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Thu Sep 14 22:10:01 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:10:01 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8pqj1h+svfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pribp+pueu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1442

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> been quite embarrassing... here's some possible spoilers that she 
let 
> slip...
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> 
>  - Mrs Figg is a squib.  Godric's Hollow (where is that again?) is 
> gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole thing with 
Harry's 
> eyes!  She says Snape could still turn out to be either bad or good 
> but she's not telling us which.

Mrs. Figg is a squib!  Well whats the point of her baby sitting Harry 
if she didn't have any magic to protect him from Voldemort or his 
revengeful death eaters?  I thought the whole point was that he was 
under magic protection when the Dursleys weren't with him.  What a 
surprise.  Maybe her house has special protections built into it by 
other magicians, and maybe she could use an "anyone can invoke it" 
spell or something to call for help.  That's the only explanation I 
can think of.

Godric's Hollow definitely has to be where GG came from 1000 years 
ago, and it seems inevitable (unless JKR pulls the rug out from under 
us) that Harry is a descendant of Godric Griffindor.  Perhaps a 
descendant's magic would be heightened when physically in the Hollow, 
even though it didn't help James or Lily.

so the eyes ARE important.  That's really interesting also.  How 
about this.  James was a descendant of Griffindor and Lily was a 
descendant of Slytherin, thus making Harry the joint descendant of 
both, the one to end the feud. That must be a fairly common theory on 
the list.  Over the years I am sure that there are lots of muggle 
descendants of magicians.  Wouldn't Petunia croak.

Re Snape - He may flip flop a time or two in the course of the next 
books, but it seems almost too obvious for him to truly be evil.  Its 
like a gimme.

> Isn't that interesting?  A really big death in 5 - Lupin?  (please 
> no!) Ron?  Dumbledore?  Sirius?  I wonder whether whoever it is 
will > hang around as a ghost (tying this in with our discussion of 
the > week).  

I don't think JKR would have the dead person remain as a ghost, 
because ghosts are so real and present in her universe that it would 
almost be as though the person didn't die at all.  If she is aiming 
for the impact that she seems to be, the person will die and that 
will be that.

It probably won't be Ron because, again, that's too obvious.  If 
there is a big death in five we're stuck with Dumbledore, one of the 
twins, or Mr. or Mrs. Weasley.  I don't think she'll go for Sirius or 
Lupin in five.  I'm inclined to think it will be a Weasley, either 
one of the twins or one of the parents.  That would be really hard. 
Do you remember that clock that JKR made pains in GoF to tell us 
about, the one which has a hand for each weasley and a space around 
the face for "mortal peril?"  It seems to me that she wouldn't have 
invented the clock and specifically told us about the "mortal peril" 
bit unless one of the Weasleys was going to be there shortly.

Vicki





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 14 22:22:20 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:22:20 -0000
Subject: Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
Message-ID: <8prj2s+na0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1443

I have been reading the endless threads on the topic of why Snape is 
so badly behaved, how he can get away with it, why doesnt Dumbledore 
DO SOMETHING about it, etc. etc. and a thought struck me:

Why are we (HP fanatics, that is) willing to accept the improbably 
bad behavior of the Dursleys, but not of Snape?  After all, the 
Dursleys, who live in a middle class suburban area, send their nephew 
to school in broken glasses and clothes that dont fit.  All the kids 
in Harrys primary school were so afraid of Dursley that they wouldnt 
even talk to Harry.  Is it likely that this would go unnoticed for so 
many years by all the teachers and administrators in a typical middle 
class school?  Probably not.  The reason why, IMHO, the Dursleys get 
away with this bad behavior is because the HP books are a work of 
fiction, and JKR is not trying to accurately portray reality.  I 
think that the Dursleys are a caricature and therefore an 
exaggeration of a certain type of person.  IMHO the Dursleys are 
something of a tribute to Roald Dahl, whose books often contain 
characters who represent unrealistic extremes, like the really 
horrible parents in Matilda (who are a lot like the Dursleys), the 
extremely poor family in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (and the 
extremely feeble grandparents) and probably others.

But what is so interesting to me is that while we put up with the 
Dursleys, we can not seem to accept the improbably bad teacher - 
Snape.  Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about 
anywhere these days, could get away with treating students as bad as 
Snape does.  And also, of course, Snapes true nature is of great 
importance to the storyline, so the endless speculation is natural. 
But why should Snape be more realistic than the Dursleys?  This is 
JKRs universe and it doesnt work the same as ours, after all. It is 
full of magic, unlike our mundane little muggle universe (sigh).

I think part of the charm of the HP books is that it includes such 
creeps as Snape and the Dursleys - it is full of the little 
injustices that make life so hard.  Many, many unfair things happen 
in the HP books.  Authority figures are not only NOT infallible but 
often idiots.  And just about anyone, including all of our intrepid 
heros, can unwittingly participate in the perpetuation of an 
injustice by their willingness to believe what is popularly perceived 
to be the truth, rather than questioning other peoples assumptions.  
For example, look at how EVERYONE believes that Sirius Black is 
guilty until the end of PoA, how so many people believe the lies that 
Rita Skeeter tells, etc.

I think part of what JKR is trying to teach us is to always QUESTION 
AUTHORITY, QUESTION OUR ASSUMPTIONS, and always be vigilant about 
SEEKING THE TRUTH.




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 14 22:30:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:30:26 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8pribp+pueu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prji2+umgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1444

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > been quite embarrassing... here's some possible spoilers that she 
> let 
> > slip...
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > 
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > 
> >  - Mrs Figg is a squib.  
> 
> Mrs. Figg is a squib!  Well whats the point of her baby sitting 
Harry 
> if she didn't have any magic to protect him from Voldemort or his 
> revengeful death eaters?  I thought the whole point was that he was 
> under magic protection when the Dursleys weren't with him.  What a 
> surprise.  Maybe her house has special protections built into it by 
> other magicians, and maybe she could use an "anyone can invoke it" 
> spell or something to call for help.  That's the only explanation I 
> can think of.

Well, if the Dursley's themselves are protection ('Harry unreachable 
while in care of blood relatives', according to Voldy in Book IV), it 
is OK if she is a Squib, because that still puts him under the extra 
eyes of someone who is familiar with the magic world; and having a 
'summon help NOW' device is conceivable.

But this also means something interesting - Vernon is presumably not
a 
'blood' relative, but Petunia and Dudley are.  Can you imagine
Harry's 
mixed feelings if THEY are suddenly in mortal peril!  Voldy probably 
wouldn't think of hiring a non-magical hit man to rub out the 
blood-relative Dursleys to open Harry to attack....
 
> I don't think JKR would have the dead person remain as a ghost, 
> because ghosts are so real and present in her universe that it
would 
> almost be as though the person didn't die at all.  If she is aiming 
> for the impact that she seems to be, the person will die and that 
> will be that.


Agree on this logic.  Although they aren't necessarily *too* much 
present - Myrtle fulfilled her function in Book Two, was only barely 
mentioned in III, and given a token function again in IV....

> It probably won't be Ron because, again, that's too obvious. 

And because  - or in spite of - everybody always begging her not to 
kill Ron, which she finds annoying (interview shown on CBS "No-one 
ever begs me not to kill Hermione!!")

> If 
> there is a big death in five we're stuck with Dumbledore, one of
the 
> twins, or Mr. or Mrs. Weasley.  .....(snip)...
> Do you remember that clock that JKR made pains in GoF to tell us 
> about, the one which has a hand for each weasley and a space around 
> the face for "mortal peril?"  It seems to me that she wouldn't have 
> invented the clock and specifically told us about the "mortal
peril" 
> bit unless one of the Weasleys was going to be there shortly.

Also good logic - although there is also McGonagall - or Cho.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 14 22:46:20 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:46:20 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
In-Reply-To: <8preel+pm2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prkfs+svjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1445

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:

>  In the 
interest 
> of gender equality, I guess I should at least consider the 
> possibility that Lily held Voldy off while James went off with the 
> baby, but James is the better wizard, making him more qualified to 
go 
> mano a mano with Voldy

How do we know James is the better wizard?  In Book I, Ollivander 
seems to imply that they might just have different specialties, 
although IIRC he does also imply that James was pretty powerful.  

IIRC James' specialty would be transfigurations, as Ollivander says,  
- especially since he was able to do the animagus transfiguration on 
himself; and note that two wizards we also respect are probably
pretty 
good at transfigurations - McGonagall who is animagus and teaches the 
subject - and Dumbledore who formerly taught the subject.  And back
to 
specialties, Ollivander indcates that Lily specialized in charms, as 
that's the kind of wand she got.  But who is to say that someone 
strong in charms is not equally as good a wizard as someone in 
transfigurarations?   The charms  (and their reverse, hexes) seem to 
be used an awful lot - everyday magic, but rather important - and
more 
than transfigurations, although those are often rather 'showy'.

Brooks

PS.  Joke.
Lovesick man goes to see a woman with local reputation as witch.  He 
wants a love potion to use on the object of his desires.  The woman 
tells him the newly adopted Withes' Ethics Code, and general wisdom, 
means that they no longer supply love potions to be given internally, 
and no, she is not bribable, thank you.  However, there is a new 
procedure he can try.  She gives him a bottle of pills and tells him 
to go bury one pill in the lawn of his love-object's dwelling, every 
night for a month, and see what happens.  He takes the bottle, pays 
her, and goes forth and does so.  Sure enough, after a month she 
decides that he is a very talented and attractive guy and is most 
interested in pursuing a relationship.  He goes to see the witch to 
ask just why this worked.  She tells him: 

"Nothin' says lovin' like something from the coven and Pills Buried 
says it best".
.
.
.
Note: if you do NOT get this joke, the advertising slogan it puns is:
"Nothin' says lovin' like something from the oven, and Pillsbury says 
it best".




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 00:31:01 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:31:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com>
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310189b5e71e1abf42@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1446

At 8:10 PM +0000 9/14/00, Kelley wrote:
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, hgiammarco at h... wrote:
>>  Just looking around today, and I noticed quite a few religious
>>  affiliated Potter hate groups. Can anyone tell me what people of
>>  religious groups find so threatening about the series? I went into
>>  some of the sights to find out, but they were basically pulling at
>>  threads. I am still at a loss, I'm afraid.
>>  Helena
>
>The best I can figure, people have the image of witches, etc., in the
>old-fashioned sense.  Dark, evil, eating children, fairy-tale stuff. 
>They lump this image in with devil-worship, voodoo, vampirism, and so
>forth.  All they see is:  BAD.  They don't have first hand knowledge
>of this, just folklore and pop culture ideas.


"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly 
what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in 
there. Probably Leviticus.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 14 23:41:17 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:41:17 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
In-Reply-To: <8prkfs+svjt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prnmt+5d4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1447

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
> wrote:
> 
> >  In the 
> interest 
> > of gender equality, I guess I should at least consider the 
> > possibility that Lily held Voldy off while James went off with
the 
> > baby, but James is the better wizard, making him more qualified
to 
> go 
> > mano a mano with Voldy
> 
> How do we know James is the better wizard?  In Book I, Ollivander 
> seems to imply that they might just have different specialties, 
> although IIRC he does also imply that James was pretty powerful.  
> 
> IIRC James' specialty would be transfigurations, as Ollivander
says,  
> - especially since he was able to do the animagus transfiguration
on 
> himself; and note that two wizards we also respect are probably
> pretty 
> good at transfigurations - McGonagall who is animagus and teaches
the 
> subject - and Dumbledore who formerly taught the subject.  And back
> to 
> specialties, Ollivander indcates that Lily specialized in charms,
as 
> that's the kind of wand she got.  But who is to say that someone 
> strong in charms is not equally as good a wizard as someone in 
> transfigurarations?   The charms  (and their reverse, hexes) seem
to 
> be used an awful lot - everyday magic, but rather important - and
> more 
> than transfigurations, although those are often rather 'showy'.
> 
> Brooks
> 
In PoA, when Harry hears his father, James is telling Lily to take 
Harry and run, right? In which case it would be James who went forth 
to go mano-a-mano with Voldemort. Not that that makes him necessarily 
the better wizard. And I've always heard that the fact that Llily's 
wand was 'a good one for charms' will wind up being integral to the 
plot later on.





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 00:11:20 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:11:20 -0000
Subject: Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <8prj2s+na0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prpf8+js5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1448

<<Why are we (HP fanatics, that is) willing to accept the improbably 
bad behavior of the Dursleys, but not of Snape?>>

We don't expect the Dursleys to be realistic because of the neat 
trick JKR has done by creating such lifelike worlds and characters: 
we see the world of wizards, witches, dragons, and elves as the "real 
world" while the mundane, ordinary world seems like fiction.  It is 
the wizard world that is the center of Harry Potter, while the Muggle 
world is on the fringe.  So we don't expect the Muggle world to have 
many interesting people or events.  We recognize that the Dursleys 
don't add much to Harry's life, and they are just *so* one 
dimensional that we know they are a lost cause.  But in the three 
dimensional wizard world, we expect characters to behave more 
realistically; hence our surprise that Snape gets away with as much 
as he does.  But Dubledore probably knows what he is doing, and there 
is much more to his relationship with Snape than we know, so he 
probably has his reasons for not doing anything about the situation.  
Or else, he intended to do something about Snape years ago, but put 
his thoughts about the Potions master in the Pensieve and never got 
around to fishing them out again.




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 00:10:41 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:10:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
References: <8prji2+umgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013101c01ea9$64d8a5c0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1449

Ok, a few questions.

First, what happens to a wizard's wand when he dies?

Second, Ok, she stated that no one ever asks her not to kill Hermione.  What if it is Hermione in B5?  Imagine what that would do to the poor fanfic writers!

Grins.

Dee    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 00:23:23 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:23:23 -0000
Subject: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8prnmt+5d4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prq5r+obh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1450

James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he?  I know that 
doesn't automatically make him the best wizard, but it is some 
evidence.  And he sounded like such an overachiever at everything 
else, that it makes sense that he was the best wizard as well, 
although "best wizard" is a pretty subjective term.  But I don't 
think a talent for charms is any better than a talent for 
transfiguration in a duel with a big, nasty, evil wizard.  What you 
need is a certain degree of courage and some measure of a daredevil, 
which James definitely had.  Not that Lily was timid or defenseless 
(I imagine her as having just as much a sense of adventure and 
mischief as James) but it just makes sense to me that James would be 
the one to stay and fight--it fits what we know of his personality 
very well.




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 01:14:17 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:14:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <013101c01ea9$64d8a5c0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
References: <8prji2+umgq@eGroups.com> <013101c01ea9$64d8a5c0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <p04310103b5e727c30438@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1451

At 8:10 PM -0400 9/14/00, Denise wrote:
>First, what happens to a wizard's wand when he dies?

I would guess . . . nothing in particular. We know that wands can be 
passed from one person to another without a particular problem; 
remember that Ron's original wand belonged to his brother Charlie 
(before it broke in Book 2 and was replaced in Book 3). The wand just 
may not work as well for another person. I imagine it's like other 
families -- if something is useful, they may pass it on to someone 
else, or they might just get rid of it. (Can you imagine a wizarding 
yard sale?)

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From waghorne at ma.ultranet.com  Fri Sep 15 01:37:22 2000
From: waghorne at ma.ultranet.com (Ken Waghorne)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:37:22 -500
Subject: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
Message-ID: <200009150036.UAA22018@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1452

cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com wrote:  
>   
> That seems right; even if James somehow managed to linger on  
in a not-  
> quite-dead state after Voldemort performed the Avada Kedavra  
curse on   
> him, the wand still regurgitates spells in-the-order-performed,   
> ergo...Lily first, then James. I'm only saying this because I've  
> heard   
> the not-quite-dead-James arguement before and thought "that  
doesn't   
> work."  

Maybe James was protecting Harry while in the not-quite-dead  
stage somehow.  Then he could have been finished off in the curse  
that was directed at Harry, explaining why he emerged from V's  
wand out of the anticipated order.  The energy it took to send  
James to the quite-dead stage somehow altered V's spell and 
when combined with Lilly's protection led to the rebound onto V.  It  
also wiped out the house at the same time.    

OK, those are reaches, but will work for me until HP5 arrives.   


Ken



------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Waghorne
waghorne at ma.ultranet.com



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 15 00:43:20 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:43:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com>
References: <8pqal8+rujo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000914172422.022e6e60@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1453

At 08:10 PM 9/14/00 +0000, Kelley wrote:
>The best I can figure, people have the image of witches, etc., in the
>old-fashioned sense.  Dark, evil, eating children, fairy-tale stuff.
>They lump this image in with devil-worship, voodoo, vampirism, and so
>forth.  All they see is:  BAD.  They don't have first hand knowledge
>of this, just folklore and pop culture ideas.  This carries over into
>the popularity of Goth, and goth music, which I can't say I really
>find very pleasant.  Then, of course there's Columbine.

I think you're partly right -- I've heard at least one religious leader
blame Columbine on Harry.  They need a scapegoat, a whipping boy,
and Harry is the current whipping boy.  (I guess at least Filch is happy.)

But more than that, I think Fundamentalists are scared by the
increasing interest in "Witchcraft" in the context of Pagan religions.
Growing numbers of people are drawn to a faith that worships a
nurturing, gentle Goddess, reveres and respects nature, and has
no iron-cast dogma that one must follow to the letter or go to hell.
And the Fundies who want to control how we think and how we
live don't like it one bit.  And again, Harry has become the scapegoat, though
to paraphrase what someone on another forum said, saying Harry Potter
encourages kids to become Witches is like saying Gilbert and Sullivan's
_H.M.S. Pinafore_ encourages people to enlist in the Navy.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 15 00:52:10 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:52:10 -0700
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <p04310189b5e71e1abf42@[24.24.42.142]>
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1454

At 07:31 PM 9/14/00 -0500, B.C. French wrote:
>"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly
>what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in
>there. Probably Leviticus.

Exodus 22:18.  And it's an "accidental" mistranslation... The original text
says "poisoner", not witch.



                                                 -- Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 01:17:25 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:17:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible  spoilers)
References: <8pribp+pueu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C178A5.AA0AC8DA@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1455



Vicki Merriman wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...>

> wrote:
> >
> > been quite embarrassing... here's some possible spoilers that she
> let
> > slip...
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> >
> Do you remember that clock that JKR made pains in GoF to tell us
> about, the one which has a hand for each weasley and a space around
> the face for "mortal peril?"  It seems to me that she wouldn't have
> invented the clock and specifically told us about the "mortal peril"
> bit unless one of the Weasleys was going to be there shortly.

Wondering what the clock was doing (or who was looking at it) while Ginny
was in the Chamber of Secrets...




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 01:22:42 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:22:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
References: <8pqal8+rujo@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000914172422.022e6e60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39C179E2.8AB599D1@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1456



Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

>
> I think you're partly right -- I've heard at least one religious leader
> blame Columbine on Harry.  They need a scapegoat, a whipping boy,
> and Harry is the current whipping boy.  (I guess at least Filch is happy.)

This makes no sense, as Columbine was in spring 1999, and the first book had only
been out for a few months before that, and it was clear from the diaries they
wrote that they'd been planning their attack before Book 1 was ever released.
Whatever.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 15 01:29:27 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:29:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEPHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1457

And besides, what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?  Those two statements in the
Bible are in conflict.

>>>>>>>>>>
At 07:31 PM 9/14/00 -0500, B.C. French wrote:
>"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly
>what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in
>there. Probably Leviticus.

Exodus 22:18.  And it's an "accidental" mistranslation... The original text
says "poisoner", not witch.   -- Dave
<<<<<<<<<<




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 01:26:46 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:26:46 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8pribp+pueu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8prtsm+7cr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1458

> Do you remember that clock that JKR made pains in GoF to tell us 
> about, the one which has a hand for each weasley and a space around 
> the face for "mortal peril?"  It seems to me that she wouldn't have 
> invented the clock and specifically told us about the "mortal 
peril" 
> bit unless one of the Weasleys was going to be there shortly.
> 
> Vicki

when i read that in GOF i had a vision of a scene in a future book 
that goes something like this...

(Harry is at the Weasley's)
Harry wondered where Ron could be. 'Where's Ron?' he asked Mrs 
Weasley.
'I don't know,' said Mrs Weasley. 'Look at our clock.'
Harry looked at the clock and was alarmed to see Ron's hand pointing 
to 'mortal peril'.

Of course the scene would be much better written than that, though!

Also, what would happen the hand on the clock if one of the weasley's 
did die? there's no 'time' that says death (like there are 'times' 
for work and school). would the hand of that family member just drop 
off?




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 01:35:00 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:35:00 -0000
Subject: Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <8prj2s+na0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pruc4+3u6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1459

> For example, look at how EVERYONE believes that Sirius Black is 
> guilty until the end of PoA.

ive lent my copies of HP out to a few of my friends and we discuss 
the books avidly. it's very difficult when someone is halfway through 
POA not to spoil the ending, which was a HUGE surprise!




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 01:35:07 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:35:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <004001c01eb5$36dde700$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1460

Thanks Dave!  I didn't want to pipe up first on that one--it is one of the disputes I have with those men who wrote the Bible (aka King James).  They added/changed/and otherwise made the words fit the pattern--which was as follows:

The midwives in England were causing the "lordly" physics alot of pain (in the neck, lol), because the people trusted them more than the physics who liked leeches too much for me--I would've went to the midwives too!  They used herbal methods, and were gentle.  The physics told the women it was God's will that the labor be painful, and refused to give any pain remedy (hence killing many children and mothers) where the midwives gave natural herbs to ease the pain.  The physics did something along the lines of lobbyists nowadays, and got the king (James) to re-write the Bible, anti-witch, including the phrase that you corrected ever so nicely Dave!  This way they could get the village magistrates to prosecute (and many were killed, yes) these so-called witches (midwives) in order to get people to turn to them!

A rather diabolical movement, one of which I think is still in effect today--but I shan't go there or we'll turn this into a nice little argument instead of being on-topic.  

This is sorta on-topic--Snape would have probably been spared (aka a man, urgh), but Hermione would have been (hanged, wasn't it?) right away!

We also shan't go into Professor T--who knows what they'd think of her then!

:)
Dee    

  ----- 
  From: Dave Hardenbrook 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 8:52 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  At 07:31 PM 9/14/00 -0500, B.C. French wrote:
  >"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly
  >what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in
  >there. Probably Leviticus.

  Exodus 22:18.  And it's an "accidental" mistranslation... The original text
  says "poisoner", not witch.



                                                   -- Dave


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 15 01:44:34 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:44:34 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEPHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pruu2+q49v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1461

Yes there are many contradictary statements in the Bible, and no I 
can't explain that.  I am a Christian and while I disagree with many 
people's beliefs I, unlike many far older than me, have the decency 
to respect those people, and to pray for them as well as other 
Christians that we may all find purpose and meaning in our lives as 
we serch for connections with God.  I do not think that Harry Potter 
is evil or I wouldn't read it...I think that those people who are 
unclear need to make decisions for themselves and not listen 
exclusively to the ones who want to use Harry as a scapegoat.

Scott




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep 15 03:14:32 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:14:32 -0500
Subject: Hermione vs. Ron Death
Message-ID: <v02140b27b5e744583b49@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1462


As for JKR wondering why no one ever begs her not to kill off
Hermione...well, it's not because we'd rather see Hermione dead than Ron.
It's because we don't get that inexplicable air of doom from Hermione that
we get from Ron.  Hermione doesn't feel like she's not long for this world,
whereas Ron has always felt that way to me.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Answer Unclear, Ask Again Later"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "The Exorcist"
Reigning car-CD:  Bonnie Tyler
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins
***********************************************************





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 02:58:33 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 02:58:33 -0000
Subject: Nearly Headless Nick's last meal (was: Character Summary: RENEPEP's
In-Reply-To: <8prae1+kraf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ps38p+kki6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1463

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Warmsley" <warmsley at b...> wrote:
> > >Nearly Headless Nick have a his 500th deathday party in CoS
> > > after telling Harry he hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years in PS? 
> > 
> > Perhaps he lived to a very old age?

> I can't imagine how this could be a clue for later...

As he had his 500th deathday party in Book 2, than he had been dead 
for 499 years in Book 1. If he was 499 years old and last ate food 
400 years ago, he last ate food when he had been dead for 99 years. 
I've always thought it was an auctorial error: she meant to have 
written that he said he hadn't eaten in 500 years (a slight, 
excusable round-off upwards exageration), so I never before wondered 
how it could be a clue for later. Now speculation: is there a way a 
ghost can get his body back for 24 hours, and Nick did so when he was 
99 years dead?

If he was 499 years old and last ate food 400 years ago, he last ate 
food when he had been dead for 99 years. What would that have to do 
with whether he lived to be 40, 100, or 599 years old BEFORE he died?
 




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 03:03:13 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:03:13 -0000
Subject: Hart (was: ghost food, godric's hollow, death in book 5,  hart and spelling
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEEHCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8ps3hh+th1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1464

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" wrote:

> I am studying at Hertford College and the college crest is a Hart 
> on a red background.

The best holiday spot in the world was a 'rustic resort' in the 
Redwood Forest named Hartsook's, but a someone bought it and took it 
private. Its symbol was an antlered deer critter leaping across a 
multi-colored heart. The resort was only open in the non-snowy 
season, so when someone said that one of the American wizarding 
schools should be the Redwood Forest, I asked whether that was 
what Hartsook's did from mid-September to April.  




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 03:13:15 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:13:15 -0000
Subject: Anti-HP and Re: Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <8prj2s+na0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ps44b+i1aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1465

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

> the Dursleys, who live in a middle class suburban area, send their
> nephew to school in broken glasses and clothes that dont fit.  All
> the kids in Harrys primary school were so afraid of Dursley that
> they wouldnt even talk to Harry.  Is it likely that this would go
> unnoticed for so many years by all the teachers and administrators 
> in a typical middle class school?  Probably not.  

I say, probably yes. I am prejudiced on the subject because I went to 
a (public) primary school in a very properous, upper-middle-class, 
white suburb, where all the other children hated me and beat up on 
me, and the teachers couldn't think of anything to do about it/me 
except to give me various mild punishments (such as standing in the 
corner) for my offenses such as daydreaming during class and reading 
when I was supposed to be playing with the other kids during recess. 

> Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about anywhere 
> these days, could get away with treating students as bad as Snape 
> does.  

See above.

> I think part of what JKR is trying to teach us is to always 
> QUESTION AUTHORITY, QUESTION OUR ASSUMPTIONS, and always be 
> vigilant about SEEKING THE TRUTH.

Some people on some of these HP lists have posted a few anti-HP 
Letters to the Editor which specifically stated that one of the 
reasons HP should be banned is that it teaches chilldren to question 
authority.  




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 03:52:46 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:52:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04310101b5e74d7c0b90@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1466

At 5:52 PM -0700 9/14/00, Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>
>At 07:31 PM 9/14/00 -0500, B.C. French wrote:
>>"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly
>>what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in
>>there. Probably Leviticus.
>
>Exodus 22:18.  And it's an "accidental" mistranslation... The original text
>says "poisoner", not witch.


There are lots of "accidental" mistranslations. Genesis is full of 'em.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 15 02:35:03 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:35:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
References: <8prj2s+na0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C18AD7.4B3A4BEE@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1467



Joywitch wrote:

> Why are we (HP fanatics, that is) willing to accept the improbably
> bad behavior of the Dursleys, but not of Snape?

> <snip>

> The reason why, IMHO, the Dursleys get
> away with this bad behavior is because the HP books are a work of
> fiction, and JKR is not trying to accurately portray reality.  I
> think that the Dursleys are a caricature and therefore an
> exaggeration of a certain type of person. <snip>
>
> But what is so interesting to me is that while we put up with the
> Dursleys, we can not seem to accept the improbably bad teacher -
> Snape.  Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about
> anywhere these days, could get away with treating students as bad as
> Snape does.  And also, of course, Snapes true nature is of great
> importance to the storyline, so the endless speculation is natural.
> But why should Snape be more realistic than the Dursleys?

This is very intriguing, and I think you're really on to something.

One distinction writers use is the distinction between flat characters and
rounded characters, a metaphoric expression of a useful idea.  The Dursleys
are flat; Snape is rounded.  In fact, Snape has depth that we can't see, and
we won't until future books.  And because the Dursleys are flat, we have the
feeling that we know them, just as we know the spear-carriers in
Shakespeare's plays, and so we know what we expect of them.  Snape is more
like Richard III.  Do we admire him, pity him, loathe him?  All of the
above--and the combination makes him riveting to watch.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 15 02:37:02 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:37:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39C18B4E.FAC0721A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1468



Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

>
> At 07:31 PM 9/14/00 -0500, B.C. French wrote:
> >"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." I don't remember exactly
> >what chapter and verse of the Bible that comes from, but it's in
> >there. Probably Leviticus.
>
> Exodus 22:18.  And it's an "accidental" mistranslation... The original text
> says "poisoner", not witch.
>

Fascinating--this was actually a huge plot point in my last book.
Mistranslation from what--the Greek?

Peg





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 03:27:30 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:27:30 -0000
Subject: First in class (was: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8prq5r+obh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ps4v2+tg2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1469

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he?

I don't remember if James was first in his class, but I do remember 
that he was Head Boy, and that Remus told Harry that James and Sirius 
were the two cleverest students in their year. I imagine that Remus 
omitted to mention himself out of modesty, and omitted to mention 
the other particularly clever students to avoid cluttering up the 
dramatic confession. I imagine that James was the first in his class, 
with possibly Severus second and Remus third (with Severus hating 
James for edging him out of first place as well all the other things 
he envied him for), and Sirius fourth because he never bothered to 
study, just coasted on native talent and intelligence (like Fred and 
George). But if Lily was in the same year as the Marauders rather 
than the next year, where did she rank in those standings?




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 03:33:15 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:33:15 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEPHCBAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8ps59r+biqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1470

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:
> And besides, what about "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? 

Actually, that's another mistranslation. The Hebrew says 'Thou shalt 
not murder'. Killing people who have been properly condemned by a 
court for having broken a law is not 'murder'.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 03:41:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:41:44 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <004001c01eb5$36dde700$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ps5po+k79d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1471

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <drohlede at n...> wrote:

> The physics told the women it was God's will that the labor be 
> painful,

As Church of England (and other) preachers did in the Victorian era 
when modern anesthestia was first invented (as ether). Victoria 
herself knew better. Altho' I suspect that the entire 'natural 
childbirth' movement is just a more effective lie to achieve the 
same goal.

> The physics did something along the lines of lobbyists nowadays, 
> and got the king (James) to re-write the Bible, anti-witch,

As I understand it, James' scholars did not have to be lobbied by 
physics to know that James had long had an obsession / phobia of 
witches, whom he blamed for all his problems including headaches.

> Snape would have probably been spared (aka a man, urgh), but 
> Hermione would have been (hanged, wasn't it?) right away

Men were executed for 'witchcraft' same as women. Except the ones who 
were useful to the monarch in power (such as Elizabeth's Dr. Dee) who 
became court magicians and were declared to achieve their effects by 
knowledge of science rather than by occult powers, as occult powers 
are always gifts from the Devil: which is one of the reasons some 
people hate HP: HP shows people using magic powers without going to 
Hell for having accepted a gift from the Devil.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep 15 03:51:16 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:51:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)  
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000915035116.0085432c@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1472

>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E
>
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>*
>
<<Mrs Figg is a squib.>>

That fact that Mrs Figg is a squib really surprised me too, especially as
JKR seemed to have been hinting at some pretty big secrets with the other
things she mentioned.  

If we assume that Mrs Figg is the Arabella Figg of Dumbledore's old gang,
perhaps we should now be asking 'who was Mr Figg?'  Presumably, he was a
wizard, as the Figgs would logically have been part of Dumbledore's A-Team
as a couple.  Otherwise, perhaps Arabella - a witch - is the daughter of the
Figgs?  

The next question that springs to mind is 'what was Mrs Figg's name before
she married?' We can speculate wildly about her being someone's sister or
other relative.  Is it possible that Mrs Figg is a distant Potter relative,
for example?  If so, it might explain why Harry is protected when he is at
her house and why she doesn't need her own magic to protect him.  The
Dursleys would know of distant relatives from Lily's family, but perhaps not
from the Potter side. 

Harry believes the Dursleys are his only living relatives, but that may just
be what they have told him.  In CoS, it says Harry "didn't know anything
about his father's family, after all. The Dursleys had always forbidden
questions about his wizarding relatives."  In PS, Dumbledore tells
McGonagall: "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the
only family he has left now."  Note, he uses the word "family" rather than
"relatives" - a subtle difference.  

Fig-leaf - "A device for concealing something, esp. the genitals" (Oxford
Encyclopedic Dictionary)

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 15 04:07:03 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:07:03 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags?
Message-ID: <8ps797+hj8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1473

DO WIZARDS USE TEABAGS??? That is, I am reading Blaise's Second 
Chance Chapter Seven (because I read the post on-list that said 
she had posted Ch 7) and Snape makes Dumbledore's cup of tea with a 
teabag. Even among Muggles, a number of snobs refuse to use teabags, 
and wizard folk seem to cling more to old ways than us Muggles -- 
maybe every cup of tea is made in a proper teapot with loose tea that 
is mostly kept out of the cup by the seive in the spout of the pot. 
Yeah, yeah, I seem to recall in the Canon that Hagrid makes tea with 
teapots (IIRC after he smashed his teapot in his distress over 
Buckbeak's execution order), but I doubted it then, too.

-- 
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((






From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 05:56:32 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 05:56:32 -0000
Subject: JKR's cleverness
Message-ID: <8psdmg+ulbj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1474

Well, the subject line sort of points out a very obvious fact about 
JKR, but I'm referring to her cleverness regarding the smaller 
details, or to be more specific, the titles of Harry's school books.

Just in the past week I've reread PS/SS and PoA (skipping CoS because 
my younger brother is reading it) and one of the details I picked up 
was the references in the names of Harry's schoolbooks. From PS/SS:

'A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration' by Emeric Switch... switch is 
of course an early clue to the nature of transfiguration!
'One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi' by Phyllida Spore... spores 
being an integral part of fungi!
(i don't know about you, but little 'quirks' like this bring me 
endless delight!)
There are more, but my favourite by far is 'Unfogging the Future' by 
Cassandra Vablatsky, Cassandra being a soothsayer of classical 
mythology. 

Unfortunately in GoF there were no books mentioned (except for the 
next installment of 'the Standard Book of Spells' by Miranda 
Goshawk), but I look forward to what JKR will delight us (well, me at 
least!) with in HP#5.




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 06:48:31 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 01:48:31 -0500
Subject: James: the better wizard?/Biblical mistranslations, & Levitical  rules
References: <968988491.10007@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C1C640.ECC2A986@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1475

> James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he? 

Welll.....what we know is that James was Head Boy but remember Lily was
Head Girl, which also means something!   And 'cleverest' student isn't
the same as 'best wizard'.   More below after a diversion....

I am given to understand that the Commandment which we generally read as
"Thou shalt not kill" actually would be more accurately translated into
English as "Thou shalt not murder" which implies that there is *not* a
restriction, or contradiction of that commandment, and a government
(including a theocracy such as the Mosaic Hebrews) employing capital
punishment.  Murder is *unlawful taking of life*.

The translation would be from Hebrew or even Aramaic.


By the way, the posting the other day on the 'Old Testament'
(specifically Leviticus) 'rules' and how obviously we don't follow them
today, yet 'God's law is unchanging' - in fact most of the examples
cited are indeed overturned in the New Testament. These include the
unclean food constraints; possibly by extension of that one, the ritual
female impurity; certainly animal sacrifice, and the constraint on
priests and impurity approaching the alter/presence of God.  Also, with
reference to the Sabbath observation and the 'kill' commandment,
execution is reserved to the government, not to individuals.  So that
one is also countered.  

The remaining ones are slavery, which is not overturned in the New
Testament.  But on the other hand, Mediterranean civilizations' slavery
was not the same as Arab, or Western hemisphere slavery that most
immediately comes to our minds - for one thing, Mediterranean slaves,
unlike US blacks, were not forbidden to be taught to read and write:
indeed slaves generally were considered more valuable if they could do
so.  For another, slaves in at least some of the Mediterranean
civilizations were entitled to handle masters' or even possess their own
money, and could save theiss and eventually buy their freedom.  

At any rate, those Levitical examples make the uninformed look at Faith
as ridiculous.  Which is probably their intent.  Which is a pity, as
they are taken out of context.  Of course, someone who has studied, can
demolish that misinformation, by pointing out exactly where those
Levitical rules are overturned and made obsolete, in the Gospels and the
Book of Acts.  I make no claim to this degree of study - I just remember
enough to know that Christians are generally taught to look at Leviticus
as mostly historical, since the New Testament clearly and even
specifically overturns a large majority of those rules (and makes life
much simpler)!   There are real Biblical inconsistencies, but the
'shalt-not-kill' commandment is not one of them, because of the
translation; and those Levitical rules are indeed changed later.  A God
Who cannot change WOULD be dead.

And this response is no more off topic than the original post, or the
related thread, to which it responds..... and if that great fantasy
writer CS Lewis can also be a Christian apologist, and argue points
about theology with Tolkien, I have some Inkling (nudge, nudge) that
this list can indulge that a bit....especially in the case of pointing
out mis-statements or inaccuracies.  I am myself intrigued to see the
'poisoner' bit, because although I knew it I had forgotten it.  Here's
another one to ponder - the word translated in Genesis 1 as "day" can
also mean "an (unspecified) period of time."


To get back ON topic, I also do not see James' reaction to Voldy's
attack (he's the one who faces Voldy & tells Lily to take Harry and run)
to be indicative of anything other than good old fashioned male 'protect
the woman and child' instinct - possibly not at all affected by taking
any time to reflect on whether he or she is the better wizard.  I hope I
would move to place myself between a female and a threat, even if I
*know* she has a black belt in some martial art whereas i am an
overweight wimp with a bad knee.  That is a HUMAN trait, a valuable one
(protecting the females and young, especially one's own, is an
evolutionary positive for the species and the individual, even if the
protector must sacrifice himself) and it is highly doubtful it would be
bred out of wizards.


> As for JKR wondering why no one ever begs her not to kill off
> Hermione..


No, she is COMPLAINING/exasperated that no-one ever begs her not to kill
off Hermione (because Hermione is based on her, she also said....).  And
by the way, *I* certainly get no sense of impending doom hanging around
Ron..... even accounting for all the fates he cooks up to satisfy
Trelawney's homework assignments!! 

 For that matter, a 'doom' in  older usage is a *fate*, (and not
necessarily a deadly fate).  There is clearly a Doom around Harry, in
that older sense!

-Brooks



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 15 07:18:30 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:18:30 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter AND Horse's Mouth
Message-ID: <8psig6+t620@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1476

Everyone who has posted on the topic of Anti-Potter groups has made 
some outstanding points.  I know that's not adding anything to the 
conversation, but I wanted to say that.  In this vein, may I ask 
everyone something?  OT, but this group seems the best to ask.  Can 
anyone recommend a bible that's translated from the original 
Aramaic?  I absolutely don't want a King James version, that big old 
chauvinist (not just midwives, ALL women, grrr).  I once had a book 
catalog, maybe B&N, that had bibles like this, but I didn't buy one 
then, and can't recall the title, translator, etc.  Anyone?

I've been figuring the 'big' death will be Dumble.  The hints about 
how 'old' he's been looking seems to be leading to this.  Of course, 
that could be JKR diverting us, as usual.  How about Arthur Weasley?  
That would be devastating for the Weasley's, taking away the family's 
father and breadwinner.  Would his death 'half-crucify' JKR, though?  
Probably not.  I'm sticking with Dumble.

I'm going to gather my thoughts about Harry's lineage now, and post 
again. ;o]

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 15 08:21:49 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:21:49 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8pqj1h+svfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8psm6t+pt5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1477

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> *
> *
> *
Godric's Hollow is gonna be very important as is Snape and the whole 
thing with Harry's eyes!  She says Snape could still turn out to be 
either bad or good but she's not telling us which.  The really big 
death comes in book five.
Godric Gryffindor ... could Harry be a 
> descendent?  
> 
> Could Mrs Figg be the person who manages to do magic in desperate 
> circumstances?   

I hope Snape turns out good, but is still a creep.  I think Arabella 
Figg ~is~ Mrs. Figg, not a relative.  A squib would be less 
conspicuous in the muggle world, but she can easily get word to 
Dumble.  As long as Vold. was not a threat, all she had to do was 
keep watch.  He's coming back now, so Dumble sent for her, needs to 
get word to her.  

Okay, I think JKR confirming that G's Hollow is important, really 
convinces me that Harry's Gryffindor's descedant.  All the hints, 
James and Lily living in G's H, Harry's wand making the red and gold 
sparks, Harry pulling Gryff's sword out of the sorting hat and what 
Dumble tells Harry afterward, the sorting hat putting Harry in Gryff--
when Harry thinks to the hat he doesn't want to be in Slyth the hat 
says "better be Gryffindor" why not one of the other houses?  (Okay, 
I know I'm reaching <g>).  Now, I know there's a popular theory that 
Lily has Slyth blood, but why not James?  Does everybody feel that 
the many times JKR's mentioned how much Harry, Tom Riddle, and James 
all resemble each other is just a red herring?  I just can't let this 
go.  Couldn't Lily be descended from Gryff?  Maybe she turned up on 
Petunia's parents doorstep the way Harry ended up with the Dursleys.  
Petunia's parents raised her as their own, and Petunia never knew; or 
maybe she did.  Maybe Godric Gryffindor has emerald green eyes.  
Everyone just assumed Lily was muggle-born.  Couldn't Harry be 
descended from both Slyth and Gryff?  It was Gryff and Slyth who had 
the big blow out all those years ago; Harry being descended from both 
would be a great twist.

Okay, tell me what you all think...

Kelley  





From caliburn at ukonline.co.uk  Fri Sep 15 08:28:32 2000
From: caliburn at ukonline.co.uk (Simon James Anderson)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:28:32 +0100
Subject: Egroups problems
Message-ID: <000201c01eee$efe536c0$5bc828c3@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1478


>From: "Brooks R" <brooksar at indy.net>
>Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:27:22
>
>Several of my other lists (which are all under one owner) forwarded a
>message from egroups last night which states in essence that egroups'
>ISP had two power failures in the space of a few hours, and when they
>finally got the system back up, one of the servers which had some
>portion of the member lists was corrupted.  That had to be restored
>from backup, so there was a several hour period where egroups had a
>variety of problems, and was un-responsive.  I suspect that
>particular listowner had sent a query, and received that message,
>rather than it being automatically sent to all listowners.
>
>-Brooks
>

It sounds like your listowner is signed up to the egroups-status list, which is where this
information was posted by egroups staff.  IIRC, you don't need to be a listowner or moderator
to sign up for the list.


Simon.

'...London is not loved by its inhabitants for what it is, but for its vivid existence in their
imagination.'   (J. Diski)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lindsey Davis discussion group at:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Marcus_Didius_Falco
Susan Cooper discussion group at:
http://www.egroups.com/group/susancooper







From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 15 08:45:38 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:45:38 -0000
Subject: Chapter 10 Summary: Mayhem at the Ministry
In-Reply-To: <001a01c01c95$b9717820$9171023e@cablecom.ch>
Message-ID: <8psnji+2kuu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1479

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> COMMENTS & QUESTIONS
> In this chapter, JKR snaps a second chance to dispell fans' rumours 
> that Harry is stingy

I never thought of Harry as stingy, but perhaps thoughtless.
 
> About Rita Skeeter: (2) Rita is apparently a late addition to the 
>book.  JKR had meant to employ a cousin of the Weasley sibs as the 
>book's bad gal and as a source of leaks from Hogwarts.  For some 
>reason, this lead to plot problems so serious that JKR exised the 
>cousin, invented Rita, and rewrote the book.  So the rewrite
> probably starts here.
 
Actually, in an interview JKR says Skeeter was always going to be 
there, but JKR discovered a big plot hole about halfway through and 
ended up dropping the evil Weasley cousin (Icicle?) and reworking and 
enlarging Skeeter's role.

Kelley 




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 15 09:44:00 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:44:00 +0100
Subject: teabags/tealeaves, hermione, james and lily
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEFECIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1480

"DO WIZARDS USE TEABAGS??? That is, I am reading Blaise's Second Chance
Chapter Seven (because I read the post on-list that said she had posted Ch
7) and Snape makes Dumbledore's cup of tea with a teabag. Even among
Muggles, a number of snobs refuse to use teabags, and wizard folk seem to
cling more to old ways than us Muggles -- maybe every cup of tea is made in
a proper teapot with loose tea that is mostly kept out of the cup by the
seive in the spout of the pot. Yeah, yeah, I seem to recall in the Canon
that Hagrid makes tea with teapots (IIRC after he smashed his teapot in his
distress over Buckbeak's execution order), but I doubted it then, too."

Yes. Lupin makes Harry a cup of tea in PoA using teabags (Ch8). This is
after the tealeaf reading incident with Professor Trelawney and he makes
some comment about Harry preferring teabags after that. His comment does
suggest that wizards would normally use tealeaves.

Just because someone uses a teapot it does not mean they have used teabags
or vice versa. It is perfectly possible to make a single cup of tea using
tealeaves, and takes no longer than making one using teabags.

I will ignore the comment you made about snobs. I use tealeaves, but will
happily drink tea made by teabags as well. There is no difference in using
tealeaves in preference to teabags to using ground coffee beans instead of
instant coffee. There are many more varieties of tea in leaf form and they
do make a better cup of tea. One of the best I have found is one that makes
quite a sweet flavoured cup of tea. I serve this to people who would
normally have sugar in their tea and they are happy to drink it without.
Thus being better for their health.

I will just add that I do not drink coffee, which is why I use leaf tea.
This meaning I can have many different varieties of the drink I love.

"As for JKR wondering why no one ever begs her not to kill off Hermione."

This would leave the story very short of important female characters. It
would also leave a big hole in the triad, especially as there would be no
one doing the bookwork. They need to get all their information from
somewhere.

"Welll.....what we know is that James was Head Boy but remember Lily was
Head Girl, which also means something!   And 'cleverest' student isn't the
same as 'best wizard'."

Hermione and Harry demonstrate this very well. Hermione is top of the year
but by her own admission Harry is the better wizard. He possesses many other
necessary attributes needed to be a great wizard.

Simon




From nick at broomsticks.org  Fri Sep 15 11:21:47 2000
From: nick at broomsticks.org (Rainbow Play Systems Ltd.)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:21:47 +0100
Subject: Help - HP merchandise in Chicago
Message-ID: <01c01f07$23077fa0$0100007f@localhost>

No: HPFGUIDX 1481

Hi all

As some of you may know... I am visiting the US in November for a business
trip.  However my plans have been changed - and I am no longer going to be
able to visit The Mall Of America, and thus will not be able to visit the
Dept56 store to collect Harry Potter merchandise.

I therefore would like your help.   My flight is due to arrive at Chicago
O'Hare airport 10.30am on 16th Nov.  I am only in Chicago for one day, and
do not know how much time I will get for shopping.   Therefore, if you know
the Chicago area well, please can you let me know what stores there are
which sell Harry Potter merchandise.

To save everyone having to hear about my shopping plans - please email me
off list:  nick at rainbowplay.co.uk or nick at broomsticks.org

Thanks

Nick.





From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 11:44:12 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:44:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's cleverness
Message-ID: <8e.a8dbbe4.26f3658d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1482

Here is the reasoning behind the book authors:

Adalbert Waffling - author of History of Magic and Magical Theory 
Adalbert is one of many saints mentioned in the HP books. He was a Bohemian churchman, known as the Apostle of the Prussians. "Waffling" is debating both for Yes and for No, which makes a good name for a theorist.

Arsenius Jigger - wrote Magical Drafts and Potions 
Arsenic is a poison.
A "jigger" is a small measure for liquor, usually holding 11/2 oz.

Cassandra Vablatsky - author of "Unfogging the Future" 
"Vablatsky" comes from Madame Blavatsky, who is a famous spiritist who founded the Occult Theosophical Society in 1875. (Thanks to The Harry Potter Lexicon)
"Cassandra" was the most beautiful daughter of Priam and Hecuba, the king and queen of Troy. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, who wished to seduce her; when she accepted his gift but refused his sexual advances, he deprived her prophecies of the power to persuade. Her name in Greek means "She who entangles men". At the end of the Trojan War, Cassandra foresaw the danger posed by the Trojan horse; the people of Troy ignored her warnings and the Greek soldiers hiding inside the horse were able to capture the city. During the sack of Troy, Cassandra was raped by the Locrian (or "lesser") Ajax, and was then given as a war prize to Agamemnon. She returned to Greece with Agamemnon, and tried to warn him of the danger which awaited him there; once again her prophecy was ignored, and both she and Agamemnon were murdered by Clytemnestra and Aegisthus. (From Encyclopedia Mythica)

Emeric Switch - author of "A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration" 
This is kind of a stretch, but Emeric Pressburger wrote the film "The Boy Who Turned Yellow", and that's tranfiguration in my book!
A switch is a change or shift from one thing to another. 

Vindictus Viridian - author of Bewitch Your Friends and Befuddle Your Enemies with the Latest Revenges...(etc) 
"Vindicta" is Latin for "to avenge" or "punish". "Viridis" is Latin for "green" (go figure...)

And, as always, I got this stuff from my name etymology website. In case you want to know more about the origins of different characters' names, the URL is:

http://www.cornishpixie.cjb.net


Ellie

In a message dated Fri, 15 Sep 2000  1:58:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at hotmail.com> writes:

<< Well, the subject line sort of points out a very obvious fact about 
JKR, but I'm referring to her cleverness regarding the smaller 
details, or to be more specific, the titles of Harry's school books.

Just in the past week I've reread PS/SS and PoA (skipping CoS because 
my younger brother is reading it) and one of the details I picked up 
was the references in the names of Harry's schoolbooks. From PS/SS:

'A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration' by Emeric Switch... switch is 
of course an early clue to the nature of transfiguration!
'One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi' by Phyllida Spore... spores 
being an integral part of fungi!
(i don't know about you, but little 'quirks' like this bring me 
endless delight!)
There are more, but my favourite by far is 'Unfogging the Future' by 
Cassandra Vablatsky, Cassandra being a soothsayer of classical 
mythology. 

Unfortunately in GoF there were no books mentioned (except for the 
next installment of 'the Standard Book of Spells' by Miranda 
Goshawk), but I look forward to what JKR will delight us (well, me at 
least!) with in HP#5. >>





From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 12:34:17 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:34:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Anti-Potter AND Horse's Mouth
In-Reply-To: <8psig6+t620@eGroups.com>
References: <8psig6+t620@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310100b5e7c63e6aeb@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1483

At 7:18 AM +0000 9/15/00, Kelley wrote:
>
>Everyone who has posted on the topic of Anti-Potter groups has made
>some outstanding points.  I know that's not adding anything to the
>conversation, but I wanted to say that.  In this vein, may I ask
>everyone something?  OT, but this group seems the best to ask.  Can
>anyone recommend a bible that's translated from the original
>Aramaic?


Well, most of the original wasn't written in Aramaic -- there was a 
lot written in Greek and Hebrew.  Also, there are a lot of "versions" 
out there that differ slightly from one another.

Anything after the Vulgate (St. Jerome's translation) is tainted 
beyond redemption, IMHO. I studied medieval church history at 
Vanderbilt University on the graduate level (before I decided to 
pursue a career that would actually make money -- I'm now an 
instructional designer and webmaster) and one of my professors was 
Jane Barry, a delightful elderly English lady who made a linguistic 
study of Jerome's translations. Using the same texts he is reported 
to have used, Mrs. Barry discovered many errors in his translations, 
and when she charted them, she found 98% of the errors were in 
passages about women, and fell into two categories: gross 
mistranslations of verbs and errors of editorialism -- Jerome 
actually added editorial comments. Write me privately if interested.

If you're interested primarily in New Testament, buy a copy of the 
Koinonia, an original Greek "version" with both Greek and English 
translation. I have a copy with Greek on one side and English on the 
other. Anything by the Jesus Convention is also fascinating reading.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 12:45:12 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:45:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <8ps5po+k79d@eGroups.com>
References: <8ps5po+k79d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310101b5e7c7eacf7b@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1484

At 3:41 AM +0000 9/15/00, Rita Winston wrote:
>  > The physics did something along the lines of lobbyists nowadays,
>>  and got the king (James) to re-write the Bible, anti-witch,
>
>As I understand it, James' scholars did not have to be lobbied by
>physics to know that James had long had an obsession / phobia of
>witches, whom he blamed for all his problems including headaches.

This is the truth. James also "flowered up" the language and added 
some of his own editorializing. Amazing how often that happened.

A lot of the anti-female stuff. particularly editorializing, in the 
Bible can be traced back to Jerome and the Vulgate, but it goes back 
a lot farther than that -- Paul, Augustine, Chrysostom.

(I hope nobody thinks I'm anti-male by any of these writings. I love 
men. I'm married to one (smile). I'm just pointing out some 
historical facts here).

>  > Snape would have probably been spared (aka a man, urgh), but
>>  Hermione would have been (hanged, wasn't it?) right away
>
>Men were executed for 'witchcraft' same as women.

In some areas of Europe, men were actually persecuted more than women 
were. I've read some accounts of so-called "witch hunters" who stated 
that while women were tempted by the Devil in greater numbers, the 
men were actually more dangerous because, of course, they're smarter 
and can do more damage. Some could occasionally find shelter in 
courts as "alchemists", something women could not generally resort to.

And yes, although the movies like to show witches being burned (how 
many movies about Salem have you seen about this? Of course no one 
burned in Salem -- eighteen or nineteen were hanged and one 
unfortunate was pressed to death) hanging was more commonly practiced 
by secular authorities. Burning was a more common fate of heretics 
persecuted by the Church, particularly the infamous Spanish 
Inquisition (which, BTW, was originally formed to root out heretics, 
particularly the Cathars and Albigensians), although witches were 
certainly heretics and that whole thing got caught up in the entire 
mess. The reason the Church favored burning is that they were 
forbidden to spill blood, and, taking the idea literally rather than 
figuratively, decidede burning someone would be a way to get around 
the prohibition. Go figure.

...Barb

-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 12:46:21 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:46:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First in class (was: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8ps4v2+tg2h@eGroups.com>
References: <8ps4v2+tg2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310102b5e7ca8f6e59@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1485

At 3:27 AM +0000 9/15/00, Rita Winston wrote:
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...>
>wrote:
>>  James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he?
>
>I don't remember if James was first in his class, but I do remember
>that he was Head Boy, and that Remus told Harry that James and Sirius
>were the two cleverest students in their year. I imagine that Remus
>omitted to mention himself out of modesty, and omitted to mention
>the other particularly clever students to avoid cluttering up the
>dramatic confession. I imagine that James was the first in his class,
>with possibly Severus second and Remus third (with Severus hating
>James for edging him out of first place as well all the other things
>he envied him for), and Sirius fourth because he never bothered to
>study, just coasted on native talent and intelligence (like Fred and
>George). But if Lily was in the same year as the Marauders rather
>than the next year, where did she rank in those standings?


She was Head Girl. Hagrid mentioned it in Book 1.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From lrcjestes at msn.com  Fri Sep 15 12:34:13 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:34:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT Bible versions and deaths
References: <8psig6+t620@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009601c01f12$a5c075e0$9b8fd6ce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1486

>In this vein, may I ask
> everyone something?  OT, but this group seems the best to ask.  Can
> anyone recommend a bible that's translated from the original
> Aramaic?  I absolutely don't want a King James version, that big old
> chauvinist (not just midwives, ALL women, grrr).  I once had a book
> catalog, maybe B&N, that had bibles like this, but I didn't buy one
> then, and can't recall the title, translator, etc.  Anyone?
>

If you are wanting somethin that is easy to find, The New International
Version (abbreviated NIV) was translated in the 1970's
to early 1980's I think from the greek and hebrew texts and is a much easier
read than the King James as it is more modern english.  If you get a study
bible it also has a lot of footnotes for possible alternative translations
and further clarifications of the language.

> I've been figuring the 'big' death will be Dumble.  The hints about
> how 'old' he's been looking seems to be leading to this.  Of course,
> that could be JKR diverting us, as usual.  How about Arthur Weasley?
> That would be devastating for the Weasley's, taking away the family's
> father and breadwinner.  Would his death 'half-crucify' JKR, though?
> Probably not.  I'm sticking with Dumble.

That would be my guess....but I was thinking that that would be
later...Lupin and Sirius are always possible...although the loss of Sirius
would be devastating to me....alternatively...I'd watch out for Bill
Weasley, who took on a bigger role in GoF

carole








From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Thu Sep 14 05:15:14 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:15:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hart, knowledge and RENEPEP's (MAINLY DAEMONS~Rant ahead!)
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEECCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <00a801c01e0a$c9e35900$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1487

<RANT>
Ok, that does it~  Neil, I received a very nice post about you responding to someone's definition of HART, but I just now got the post with the definition!  They are pouring in out of order entirely (by hours!).

Arrrrrgh!  I am tired of filling out feedback forms.

Dee
</RANT>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 15 13:46:52 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:46:52 CDT
Subject: Hermione & Important Death
Message-ID: <F35AV8Dt5zt47jO9ljL00008514@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1488

Hi

<<<"As for JKR wondering why no one ever begs her not to kill off 
Hermione.">>>

Simon said: <<<This would leave the story very short of important female 
characters. It would also leave a big hole in the triad, especially as there 
would be no one doing the bookwork. They need to get all their information 
from somewhere.>>>

I also think it's unlikely that Hermione would die and for some of the 
reasons already mentioned, plus others.  As Simon said, it leaves the Triad 
unbalanced.  If one of them dies, it's far more likely to be Ron.  Lori & I 
have talked about this before, and I seem to remember that her argument was 
that it was so unlikely in conventional literature that the heroine (or 
strongest female character if one doesn't believe Hermione is the heroine) 
would be killed off, leaving 2 male characters.  Now, I'm the person always 
saying that JKR doesn't always subscribe to conventionality, so that theory 
could be a bit off-base.  But, Hermione is based on JKR herself.  Does that 
mean Hermione would be the death that would half-crucify her (JKR)?  I still 
don't think so.

I'm not as convinced as Lori that Ron has an aura of doom & gloom around 
him, although I certainly think his eventual death (particularly in a 
triangle/betrayal scenario) wouldn't be a complete shock.

As for the death that will half-crucify JKR (allegedly in Book 5) - I think 
Hagrid, Lupin, Dumbledore or Sirius fits this bill.  She has said that Lupin 
is *her* favorite character, so I suppose he remains a top target in my mind 
for that reason.  However, I do think she's particularly fond of Hagrid (as 
are most all of the HP fans) -- so his death could be enough to cause her 
emotional anguish.  I think most of us are very fond of Dumbledore, but I'm 
not sure his death is the one that would affect JKR in that manner.  I also 
am not convinced he'll die so early (then again, I'd never have predicted 
that Voldemort would rise again in Book 4).

Much to my dismay, someone has made some rather convincing arguments that 
the important death of the series could well be Sirius.  I can't remember 
who argued this awhile back, but their point was that while Lupin might be 
JKR's favorite character, Sirius is clearly the death that would affect 
*Harry* the most.  The anguish his death would cause Harry might well be 
enough to half-crucify JKR (and I would guess she's quite fond of Sirius 
herself in any case, even if he isn't necessarily her favorite).

For now though . . . . I will avoid thinking about Sirius dying in Book 5 & 
continue to write ASA.  <g>

<<<"Welll.....what we know is that James was Head Boy but remember Lily was 
Head Girl, which also means something!   And 'cleverest' student isn't the 
same as 'best wizard'.">>>

Simon said: <<<Hermione and Harry demonstrate this very well. Hermione is 
top of the year but by her own admission Harry is the better wizard. He 
possesses many other necessary attributes needed to be a great wizard.>>>>

I agree with Simon btw.  It squares nicely with my balance arguments ---that 
is, the talents/skills of Harry and Hermione are far more balanced than the 
talents/skills of Ron and Hermione (or Harry and Ron for that matter).

Back to the Marauders' generation -- top graduates = those who received top 
marks, right?  Book smarts will only get you so far at Hogwarts though, 
right?  I mean Hermione clearly has more book smarts than anyone else, but 
she must have the natural talent/inherent magical abilities to go with it, 
or she couldn't handle the practical aspects of their assignments.  She 
can't just know the theory behind the summoning charms; she also needs to 
perform them satisfactorily to achieve full marks.

So, James & Sirius are said to be the cleverest in their year.  But, they 
might not necessarily have had the most natural talent, so there's no way of 
knowing for sure how they ranked at the end of their Hogwarts education.  
The fact that James was Head Boy & Quidditch star might indicate that he was 
top in his year, but then again, neither of those honors necessarily signal 
natural magical abilities.

Penny




>From: "Simon Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>To: "HPforGU" <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] teabags/tealeaves, hermione, james and lily
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:44:00 +0100
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 13:57:25 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:57:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kathy's H/H Evidence Request
Message-ID: <200009151414.e8FEEno06611@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1489

Penny:

Thanks for posting that!  The curiosity was killing me!

Kathy




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 14:10:04 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:10:04 -0400
Subject: Squibs...
References: <8psm6t+pt5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c01f1e$a8380f20$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1490

How much (less?) magic does a person have until he classifies as a squib?  Could you have only one ability or two (like one or two spells?) and still be squib, or is it an all or nothing thing?

Thanks for answering!
Dee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 14:05:36 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:05:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
Message-ID: <200009151423.e8FEN4o08110@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1491

>
>I don't think JKR would have the dead person remain as a ghost,
>because ghosts are so real and present in her universe that it would
>almost be as though the person didn't die at all.  If she is aiming
>for the impact that she seems to be, the person will die and that
>will be that.
>
>It probably won't be Ron because, again, that's too obvious.


I agree that the dead person probably won't hang around.  It definitely 
wouldn't have the emotional impact, and it would ring as false as if Lily and 
James came back from the dead at the end of the series and Harry lived happily 
ever after.

As for the death, I just know it's going to be Ron.  I'm not saying I WANT it 
to be, but I am bracing myself for the worst.  Man, now I get to go through 
this whole anxiety for Ron thing again for a whole year, just like I did 
before Book 4.  (The first time I read GoF, I did it all in one sitting 
because I HAD to make sure Ron got through it okay.  I was even afriad for him 
up to the very end, even after Cedric dies, because I was afraid he would get 
run over by the Hogwart's Express or something.)  Is it natural to feel this 
much anxiety for a fictional character?

Kathy  




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 14:07:13 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:07:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bad Behavior, Fairness, Snape and the Dursleys
Message-ID: <200009151424.e8FEOfo08453@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1492

>I think part of what JKR is trying to teach us is to always QUESTION
>AUTHORITY, QUESTION OUR ASSUMPTIONS, and always be vigilant about
>SEEKING THE TRUTH.


In other words, "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!"  (:




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 14:51:40 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:51:40 -0000
Subject: Egroups problems
In-Reply-To: <000201c01eee$efe536c0$5bc828c3@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8ptd1s+2l9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1493

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon James Anderson" 
<caliburn at u...> wrote:

> It sounds like your listowner is signed up to the egroups-status 
list, which is where this
> information was posted by egroups staff.  IIRC, you don't need to
be 
a listowner or moderator
> to sign up for the list.

I was going to say I was signed to that list too, but that is not the 
case - that seems to be a separate list from the egroups MODERATORS 
list which I *am* signed to - and I did not get that message on it.

-Brooks




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 15 14:54:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:54:33 CDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
Message-ID: <F88Pniy0wUHZPqxv2r300008384@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1494

Hi:

<<<As for the death, I just know it's going to be Ron.  I'm not saying I 
WANT it to be, but I am bracing myself for the worst.  Man, now I get to go 
through this whole anxiety for Ron thing again for a whole year, just like I 
did before Book 4.  (The first time I read GoF, I did it all in one sitting 
because I HAD to make sure Ron got through it okay.  I was even afriad for 
him up to the very end, even after Cedric dies, because I was afraid he 
would get run over by the Hogwart's Express or something.)  Is it natural to 
feel this much anxiety for a fictional character?>>>

LOL!  I did the same thing (read GoF in one sitting) but because I HAD to be 
sure that Sirius was going to live.  I was so afraid to turn the pages once 
I learned a dementor had been brought into the castle to administer the Kiss 
to Barty Crouch Jr.  I just *knew* that when I turned the page, the Dementor 
would have cornered Sirius.  Talk about a high anxiety level as I read those 
last pages . . . . I was biting my nails and muttering "No. No .... No . . 
." the whole time.  I had a hard time believing at that point that Cedric's 
death was the only death that the readers would care about.

So, in answer to your question, I think it might not be unusual (not saying 
whether it's normal or not) to feel a high degree of anxiety about a 
fictional character.  <g>

I sometimes wish JKR just wasn't saying anything about deaths in each of the 
books.  You're right -- now we'll all read Book 5 in one sitting so as to be 
sure that our personal favorite(s) live through it.  The rumors have already 
started -- are we all sure that the Book 5 death is the one that JKR said 
has/will "half-crucify" her?

Penny




>From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at carr.org>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... 
>(possible spoilers)
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:05:36 -0400
>

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From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 15:25:48 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:25:48 -0000
Subject: "best wizard" - academically
Message-ID: <8ptf1s+qfkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1495

Ya know though, that despite the studies bit, with students having to 
write essays, most of the 'final exams' seem to be practical magic 
demonstrations.  Charms and transfigurations especially; DADA under 
Lupin; Potions at least part of the time, Trelawney's one-on-ones.  
So there is more than just Hermione's studiousness that should enter 
into it - and the grades.

(Does it ever occur to anyone that Potions resembles the kind of 
college chemistry labs one has nightmares about?  I just got this 
vision that 7th year Potions will consist of being given an unknown 
potion and having to work out its ingredients and process BACKWARDS, 
from the potion itself.) 

(Yes , I hated qualitative analysis.)

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 15:27:09 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:27:09 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags?
In-Reply-To: <8ps797+hj8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptf4d+jaki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1496

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> DO WIZARDS USE TEABAGS??? 


Yes, but they roll their own, with parchment.  :-)

-Brooks




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 15:49:30 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:49:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)  
Message-ID: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8CB@FTLEXC1>

No: HPFGUIDX 1497

Neil wrote
> 
> >S
> >P
> >O
> >I
> >L
> >E
> >R
> >
> >S
> >P
> >A
> >C
> >E
> >
> >*
> >*
> >*
> >*
> >*
> >*
> >*
> >
> Is it possible that Mrs Figg is a distant 
> Potter relative,
> for example?  If so, it might explain why Harry is protected 
> when he is at
> her house and why she doesn't need her own magic to protect him.  The
> Dursleys would know of distant relatives from Lily's family, 
> but perhaps not
> from the Potter side. 
> 
> Harry believes the Dursleys are his only living relatives, 
> but that may just
> be what they have told him.  In CoS, it says Harry "didn't 
> know anything
> about his father's family, after all. The Dursleys had always 
> forbidden
> questions about his wizarding relatives."  In PS, Dumbledore tells
> McGonagall: "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. 
> They're the
> only family he has left now."  Note, he uses the word 
> "family" rather than
> "relatives" - a subtle difference.  

It depends on how you define it - on the merriam-webster dictionary site,
FAMILY is defined both as 1 : a group of individuals living under one roof
and usually under one head : HOUSEHOLD AND 2 a : a group of persons of
common ancestry 
RELATIVE is defined as 3 a : a person connected with another by blood or
affinity 

You sort of have to go for the second FAMILY definition for dumbledore's
usage, because to Harry that November day, the Durselys were not yet
"family" under definition 1, but they were under definition 2, and under
"relatives" definition 3a


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 15:50:54 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:50:54 -0400
Subject: jkr  books - reviews
Message-ID: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8CC@FTLEXC1>

No: HPFGUIDX 1498

To view this entire article, go to
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6623-2000Sep14.html

On the Potter Bandwagon


So, you've finally read all 734 pages of "Harry Potter and the Goblet of
Fire." Now what? Publishers have plenty of suggestions. Several books about
Harry Potter and his creator, J.K. Rowling, have appeared in bookstores.
They range from transparent attempts to make money off Pottermania to smart
examinations of Rowling's work--so be sure to shop critically.



"We Love Harry Potter!"

By Sharon Moore (1999, St. Martin's Griffin, $5.99)

Disclaimer on the cover: "This book has not been authorized or endorsed by
J.K. Rowling or the publishers of the Harry Potter books."

You could buy this book--or you could just talk to your friends. Almost all
of "We Love Harry Potter!" is direct quotations from kids about the books.
Comments such as "I wish I could go to wizard school, too" don't exactly
make for, um, spellbinding reading. 

The rest of the book is a hodgepodge of word games, praise for the books
from parents and teachers, and dorky conversations with kids about how they
tr!
ied to make butterbeer at home or play Quidditch in the back yard. Although
this book is for and largely by kids, the author's generalizations about
young people are patronizing: "Owls are creatures that fascinate children."
Yuck. This book is unlikely to fascinate children.



"J.K. Rowling: The Wizard Behind Harry Potter"

By Marc Shapiro (2000, St. Martin's Griffin, $4.99)

Disclaimer on the cover: "An unauthorized biography."

An unauthorized biography means it was written without the help or
permission of the person it's about. If you've read many magazine or
newspaper stories about Rowling, you've pretty much already read this book;
that's where the information in it came from. 

This kind of biography is sometimes called "fictionalized." That means the
author imagines things he hasn't actually seen, as in this description of
Rowling at work: "A smile crosses her face. Her already expressive eyes,
framed by long wavy hair, grow even wider. Her pen slashes across the pape!
r like a lightning bolt." 

This author tries to buddy up with young readers by repeatedly claiming that
"we" do this or that. "We all fantasize about being able to fly and lift
buildings off the ground," for example. Which is one of the reasons "we" can
do without this book.



"Exploring Harry Potter"

By Elizabeth D. Schafer (2000, Beacham Publishing, $24.95)

Disclaimer on the cover: "Not approved by J.K. Rowling."

This book isn't about the phenomenon of Pottermania or about J.K. Rowling
herself, although it includes sections on both topics. Instead, it's about
the Harry Potter books themselves. 

If you like books and think you might want to study them one day, this is a
good introduction to the way teachers and critics think and talk about
literature. (Does the Chamber of Secrets represent a womb?) It's also filled
with interesting background information, like the fact that Nicholas Flamel,
a name from the Potter books, was a real person (a 14th-century alchemist).

The!
 book has chapters about a wide range of things, from the history of
witchcraft to the geography of the British Isles, as well as lists of
characters and chapter-by-chapter summaries of the books followed by
school-style questions such as "Why is the wizard candy significant?" 

Even if you don't answer them, you can't help learning something from this
book.

For more on Harry Potter, including stories and quizzes KidsPost has
published in the past, visit our Web site: www.washingtonpost.com/kidspost.


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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 15 16:28:11 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:28:11 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <013101c01ea9$64d8a5c0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ptimr+ocle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1499

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <drohlede at n...> wrote:

> First, what happens to a wizard's wand when he dies?

	I was reading about the funeral of a stage magician, and they 
snapped his wand in two and put in in the coffin. I don't know if JKR 
plans to incorporate this bit of lore into her universe, but I think 
it's really a powerful image.





From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 16:41:02 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:41:02 -0000
Subject: Free Will and Time travel
In-Reply-To: <8pk9h6+2lgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptjeu+scu5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1500

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Of course Heinlein did a ton of stuff about this in his Future
> History books

Including one book in which the main character goes back in time and 
has sex with his mother (paging Dr. Freud!) so maybe Heinlein isnt 
the best authority.  Although, personally I love his juvenile books, 
but the books he wrote for adults always have a main character who is 
a fat, bald middle-aged to elderly man who is inexplicably attractive 
to dozens of young, beautiful female characters.  Talk about 
unbelievable plot twists!

But enough ranting about sexist old sci-fi authors...

The problems inherent in time travel have been explored at length by 
Heinlein and many, many other sci-fi authors. Personally, I agree 
with Starship Voyager Captain Janeway who says something to the 
effect that when she joined Starfleet she promised herself that she 
would never get involved in those messy time travel paradoxes.  Plots 
with time travel in them always raise zillions of impossible 
contradictions, and after reading and seeing hundreds of them they 
have started driving me nuts, so much so that I really hope JKR stays 
away from them in the future.

Besides which, as Arthur C. Clarke points out, time travel (at least 
to the past) is clearly impossible, because if it werent we would be 
bumping into time travelers from the future right now.  Unless the 
people from the future were somehow unable to say anything about the 
future, or for some reason we couldnt communicate with them, or 
else............OH NO NOW I HAVE STARTED SPECULATING ABOUT TIME 
TRAVEL PARADOXES...SOMEONE STOP ME!!!!!!

--Joywitch




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 15 17:00:13 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:00:13 -0000
Subject: Lily
Message-ID: <8ptkit+cjd7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1501

Where in the books does it say that Lily was Head Girl? I must have 
missed that.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 17:06:30 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:06:30 -0000
Subject: Lily
Message-ID: <8ptkum+87kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1502

Cassandra asked:
<Where in the books does it say that Lily was Head Girl? 

In Book 1, Hagrid tells Harry they were (paraphrasing) 'head boy an' 
girl at Hogwarts in their time...'

Of course, nobody's ever said they were the same age - for all we 
know, Lily was 1 or 2 years older than James...




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 15 17:03:33 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:03:33 -0000
Subject: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8prji2+umgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptkp5+sibp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1503

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
> wrote:
> > > slip...
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > 
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > themselves are protection ('Harry unreachable 
> while in care of blood relatives', according to Voldy in Book IV), 
it 

> But this also means something interesting - Vernon is presumably not
> a > 'blood' relative, but Petunia and Dudley are.  Can you imagine
> Harry's > mixed feelings if THEY are suddenly in mortal peril!  
Voldy probably 
> wouldn't think of hiring a non-magical hit man to rub out the 
> blood-relative Dursleys to open Harry to attack....

Yes, but I suspect that the Dursleys may be protected in some magical 
way that THEY are not aware of.  Also, while Voldy would have no 
problem hiring a muggle hit man, there doesn't seem to be a lot of 
interaction between muggle and magical universes, and Voldy has not 
been able to interact in much of either one until the end of GoF.  He 
has been fairly non corporeal, or at least really physically 
disabled, as we don't really know WHAT that was in GoF.

> > If > > there is a big death in five we're stuck with Dumbledore, 
one of > the  > > twins, or Mr. or Mrs. Weasley.  .....(snip)...
> 
> Also good logic - although there is also McGonagall - or Cho.

Cho or Professor McGonagall, especially Cho, IMO, would not fit the 
expressed reaction that it "killed" her to write the death.  I stick 
to my prediction it will be a twin or Mr. or Mrs. Weasley.  Possibly 
Dumbledore, but he's an outside contender for book five in my 
thoughts.

Vicki






From warmsley at btinternet.com  Fri Sep 15 15:49:53 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:49:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
Message-ID: <01c01f2c$96a82d40$0100007f@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1504


>Maybe James was protecting Harry while in the not-quite-dead
>stage somehow.  Then he could have been finished off in the
curse
>that was directed at Harry, explaining why he emerged from V's
>wand out of the anticipated order.  The energy it took to send
>James to the quite-dead stage somehow altered V's spell and
>when combined with Lilly's protection led to the rebound onto
V.  It
>also wiped out the house at the same time.
>
>OK, those are reaches, but will work for me until HP5 arrives.
>

My take on it is that it *has* to be something big, a plot thing
that we know nothing about, yet... but I can't see for the life
of me what it is :)

Jeremy




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 15 17:24:14 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:24:14 -0000
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <39C179E2.8AB599D1@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8ptlvu+1pnu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1505

--- In Hnups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> 
I've heard at least one religious leader> > blame Columbine on 
Harry.  

> This makes no sense, as Columbine was in spring 1999, and the first 
book had only > been out for a few months before that, and it was 
clear from the diaries they > wrote that they'd been planning their 
attack before Book 1 was ever released.

There's your first mistake.  That people with such irrational fears 
and hatred will make sense.  Don't confuse those people with truly 
religious people who show a love of God by demonstrating love and 
tolerance to their fellow human beings.

Vicki




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 17:31:20 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:31:20 -0000
Subject: Lily
In-Reply-To: <8ptkit+cjd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptmd8+rsse@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1506

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, cassandraclaire73 at y... wrote:
> Where in the books does it say that Lily was Head Girl? I must have 
> missed that.

Book I (SS/PS) when Hagrid is telling Harry about his parents.  "Head 
Boy and Head Girl in their day" or something like that.

Note - JKR was Head Girl at her school.

-Brooks




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep 15 17:46:43 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Flying Ford Anglia)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:46:43 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8CB@FTLEXC1>
Message-ID: <8ptna3+pa8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1507

--- Heidi wrote:
> > >S
> > >P
> > >O
> > >I
> > >L
> > >E
> > >R
> > >
> > >S
> > >P
> > >A
> > >C
> > >E
> > >
> > >*
> > >*
> > >*
> > >*
> > >*
> > >*
> > >*
> > >

Neil said:

<<<<In PS, Dumbledore tells McGonagall: "I've come to bring Harry to 
his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now."  Note, 
he uses the word "family" rather than "relatives" - a subtle 
difference.>>>>  

Heidi said:

<<It depends on how you define it - on the merriam-webster dictionary 
site, FAMILY is defined both as 1 : a group of individuals living 
under one roof and usually under one head : HOUSEHOLD AND 2 a : a 
group of persons of common ancestry RELATIVE is defined as 3 a : a 
person connected with another by blood or affinity 
 
You sort of have to go for the second FAMILY definition for 
dumbledore's usage, because to Harry that November day, the Durselys 
were not yet "family" under definition 1, but they were under 
definition 2, and under "relatives" definition 3a.>>

***

Neil again:

I agree that he probably meant Harry's "only living relatives", but 
his use of the word "family" left a sliver of a glimmer of a 
possibility that there might be another living relative who is, 
perhaps, completely mad, totally unsuitable for parenting and living 
in a cave on Easter Island... or who is Mrs Figg.  No?  Okay then.

Neil 

Hrrrm - do they have caves on Easter Island? Please don't tell me 
they don't.






From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 15 17:55:17 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:55:17 -0000
Subject: Lily
In-Reply-To: <8ptkum+87kf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptnq5+d2lv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1508

Thanks, Heidi! (And hi, by the way.) I had forgotten.It always rather 
surprised me that James managed to be Head Boy, given his apparent 
rule-breaking personality. Of course, I know very little about what 
actually goes in to choosing a Head Boy ? grades, behavior, 
attendance? Quidditch skills?




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" <
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Cassandra asked:
> <Where in the books does it say that Lily was Head Girl? 
> 
> In Book 1, Hagrid tells Harry they were (paraphrasing) 'head boy
an' 
> girl at Hogwarts in their time...'
> 
> Of course, nobody's ever said they were the same age - for all we 
> know, Lily was 1 or 2 years older than James...





From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 18:00:50 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:00:50 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8ptna3+pa8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pto4i+8nc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1509

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Flying Ford Anglia"
<neilward at d...> 
wrote:

> 
> Hrrrm - do they have caves on Easter Island? Please don't tell me 
> they don't.

They do indeed: Thor Heyerdahl's _Aku-Aku_ describes a ceremony he 
attends that is held in one.

-Brooks
(Who knows more about Quantum mechanics than anthropology but has
read 
a *lot* of varied things over the years...)




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 17:58:48 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:58:48 -0000
Subject: Dursley protection, was Straight from the horse's mouth... 
In-Reply-To: <8ptkp5+sibp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pto0o+hmef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1510

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
wrote:

This is no longer really tying into JKR-on-book-5, so I can omit the 
spoiler space.

> > But this also means something interesting - Vernon is presumably 
not
> > a > 'blood' relative, but Petunia and Dudley are.  Can you imagine
> > Harry's > mixed feelings if THEY are suddenly in mortal peril!  
> Voldy probably 
> > wouldn't think of hiring a non-magical hit man to rub out the 
> > blood-relative Dursleys to open Harry to attack....
> 
> Yes, but I suspect that the Dursleys may be protected in some 
magical 
> way that THEY are not aware of.  Also, while Voldy would have no 
> problem hiring a muggle hit man, there doesn't seem to be a lot of 
> interaction between muggle and magical universes, and Voldy has not 
> been able to interact in much of either one until the end of GoF.  
He 
> has been fairly non corporeal, or at least really physically 
> disabled, as we don't really know WHAT that was in GoF.


The latter points are fine for the past, but this is a future threat 
we are talking about.  However, in practice, it seems to be a 
limitation of many wizards, and especially for the 'racist wizards' 
such as many Slytherins, Malfoys, Riddle, that they cannot think that 
maybe MUGGLE technology could assist THEM - even the 'good guys' like 
Arthur Weasley cannot totally muddle through how to use Muggle 
technology.  Even though Riddle grew up in the Muggle orphanage.  I 
talked about this with my ex* last night, and we agreed that even if 
it *did* occur to Voldy to hire a Muggle hit man to take out the 
Dursleys, he would probably be handicapped by 'racist wizard' pride, 
and it is *that* which would prevent him from doing so.  However, the 
Dursley 'other protection' had also occurred to us.  

I still think "WHAT that was in GoF" (meaning corporate but weak 
mini-Voldy) was a Voldy-Homunculus.

-Brooks

*She was telling me about what she was reading, about this Jesuit 
scientist-priest (Teilhard de Chardin) who was searching for fossils 
in China, and was involved in the discovery of the Peking Man 
fossil (but also the Piltdown man hoax).....




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 15 17:54:31 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:54:31 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8ps797+hj8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptnon+qaun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1511

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> DO WIZARDS USE TEABAGS??? That is, I am reading Blaise's Second 
> Chance Chapter Seven (because I read the post on-list that said 
> she had posted Ch 7) and Snape makes Dumbledore's cup of tea with a 
> teabag. Even among Muggles, a number of snobs refuse to use 
teabags, > and wizard folk seem to cling more to old ways than us 
Muggles -- 


This seemed strange to me also.  I remember Lupin making Harry a cup 
of tea with a teabag and then apologized saying "I imagine you'd had 
enough of tea leaves anyway."

The tea listserv I am on had several posts on Dobby in book four, 
when he is wearing a tea cozy on his head, with the suggestion that 
perhaps more americans will try tea because of HP.  We also noticed 
that Mrs. Weasley's response to a problem is to make a cup of tea.

I am one of those persons (not quite sure I'm a muggle, probably half 
and half, as my mother has already stated authoritatively that "she 
is no muggle, thank you very much" while my dad is muggle through and 
through).  That, however, is really for another post.

At any rate, I take my tea very seriously, and haven't used a teabag 
for years, except once or twice on vacation in London this past 
July.  I have special heating pots and teapots to make looseleaf at 
the office, and am even on a tea of the month club, which sends 5 one 
ounce samples of fine teas every month.

Until this list starting sucking up my spare time, I spent most of it 
on a really good tea listserv.

I wouldn't have anything to do with most teabags, and find it strange 
that the wizarding world would.  They must have teapots that 
automatically strain the leaves.  Even assuming the bags are better 
than yucky american teabags, why would they use teabags?  I think it 
is just something that made a cute line (Lupin's comment) and that 
JKR didn't really think about too much.  Given the way she has 
created her magical universe, with the implications that wizarding 
folk are not into muggle inventions, I think they'd really have stuck 
to tea leaves.

However, appropos of "not into muggle inventions", they seem to add 
things after muggles invent them.  After all, they have cameras that 
create moving pictures.  But I got the impression in book two that 
the camera was an ordinary muggle one and it was the way they 
developed the film that made the difference.  They also couldn't have 
had the Hogwarts Express until the train was invented in the early 
1820s.  I wonder how students got to Hogwarts before that?  Flue 
powder perhaps, if that existed?  Regular horses that were magicked 
so they never tired?  Flying carpets before the ban?

Vicki




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 18:42:36 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:42:36 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8ptnon+qaun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ptqis+utl2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1512

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
wrote:

> However, appropos of "not into muggle inventions", they seem to add 
> things after muggles invent them.  After all, they have cameras
that 
> create moving pictures.  But I got the impression in book two that 
> the camera was an ordinary muggle one and it was the way they 
> developed the film that made the difference.  They also couldn't 
have 
> had the Hogwarts Express until the train was invented in the early 
> 1820s.  I wonder how students got to Hogwarts before that?  Flue 
> powder perhaps, if that existed?  Regular horses that were magicked 
> so they never tired?  Flying carpets before the ban?

In the old days a major means of transport around the UK in some
areas 
was canals and towboats, similar to the Erie Canal in the US (and 
several canals in Indiana and Ohio as well.  In southern Indiana
there 
is still a town which maintains a mile or two of its transport canal 
as a tourist attraction).  Areas of the UK without such had to rely
on 
the coach-and-four of Regency Romance fame.  

Horatio Hornblower takes a trip on one of the canal boats with his 
first wife and child, in one of the middle Hornblower books, and I
saw 
an episode on _Mystery_ lately where Inspector Frost was trying to 
solve a century-old murder while on vacation, which was set on such a 
canal tow-boat.

I wonder if there is a disused canal near Hogwarts - perhaps the 
students traveled, in the 18th & 19th centuries, on self-propelled 
canal boats, and the present use of the small boats to cross the lake 
for first years is a tip-o-the-wizards'-hat to that tradition.  I
like 
that idea so much that I think I will include it in my fanfic (where
I 
already have a throw-away line that gives the origin of the current 
steam engine of the Express....)

-Brooks




From particle at urbanet.ch  Fri Sep 15 18:56:18 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:56:18 +0200
Subject: Too many things for this subject line...spoilers
References: <8ph2qj+3vp6@eGroups.com> <39C13507.5D084597@hic.net>
Message-ID: <00ec01c01f46$a297c100$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1513

> 2.  What he didn't do next -- he didn't take Ron to the surface & save
> him before returning to be the noble hero; he didn't start chopping away
> at Cho's bindings, which "to me would have been the logical thing for
> him to do *if* he was so infatuated with her.  His rescue of Cho would
> have been the perfect way to undercut a boy who at this point in the
> novel he is very competitive with."  (Quotes are from Ebony's email to
> me).

On the other hand, he might be sort of...how to put it - 'getting back at
Cho'. You know, subconciously, he feels that Cho has rejected him for
another guy, so even though he still likes her, he's not really in the set
of mind to want to help her - know what I mean?

> Ebony also points to Hermione's reaction after they all get out of the
> lake.  Krum continues to try & get her attention ("Hey!  Look at me -- I
> just *saved* you!"), but the only person she wants to talk to is Harry.
> <g>

This might simply mean that right at that moment she'd rather talk to Harry,
her best friend for four years, who's just come out of the water, then her
comparatively new boyfriend who is clearly fine. At this point, while
they've got hormones coming, I don't think that Harry-tachi are mature
enough for love or even extreme fondness of that sort yet.

I just know I'm making no sense whatsoever.

<In the interest
of gender equality, I guess I should at least consider the
possibility that Lily held Voldy off while James went off with the
baby, but James is the better wizard, making him more qualified to go
mano a mano with Voldy, and if part of the reason Harry survived was
that his mother died trying to protect him, it is implied that she
was actually physically standing in Voldy's way as he tried to get to
Harry.  So Lily being the one to take Harry and run/hide is more
likely.>

Ahem. We have no proof that James is a better wizard, do we? I mean, Lily
*was* Head Girl, and while McGonagall said that James and Sirius were
'exceptionally bright', she was talking specifically about the two of them
and their relationship, so that doesn't mean that there weren't other
exceptionally bright students. Also, she mentions Remus only indirectly as a
tag-along, when to hear it from Sirius and Remus he certainly was not - and
there's a good chance that Remus was closer to Sirius than Lily.

<Now, I know there's a popular theory that
Lily has Slyth blood, but why not James?  Does everybody feel that
the many times JKR's mentioned how much Harry, Tom Riddle, and James
all resemble each other is just a red herring?  I just can't let this
go.  Couldn't Lily be descended from Gryff?  Maybe she turned up on
Petunia's parents doorstep the way Harry ended up with the Dursleys.
Petunia's parents raised her as their own, and Petunia never knew; or
maybe she did.  Maybe Godric Gryffindor has emerald green eyes.
Everyone just assumed Lily was muggle-born.  Couldn't Harry be
descended from both Slyth and Gryff?  It was Gryff and Slyth who had
the big blow out all those years ago; Harry being descended from both
would be a great twist.>

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing about James and Lily's ancestry.
Another plausible way for Lily to be the descendant of Gryff (or any famous
wizard, for that matter) is if one of both of her parents was descended
from/is a squib...

<So, in answer to your question, I think it might not be unusual (not saying
whether it's normal or not) to feel a high degree of anxiety about a
fictional character.  <g>>

When I read the part about Harry getting mad over Sirius's insistence that
he stay inside and be careful, I immediately assumed that Sirius was going
to die, and formed this whole little scenario where Sirius dies trying to
save Harry from some sort of mischief he's gotten himself into by
disregarding his orders later in the book, so that Harry gets all angsty and
blames his godfather's death on himself. I was *frantic* about it (almost in
tears, believe it or not - Sirius isn't my favorite character, but still!),
and since I was at summer camp (my friend was a saint! she let me read her
copy before she did!), I couldn't read it in one sitting, so naturally I was
going mad.

~Firebolt




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 19:38:41 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:38:41 -0000
Subject: Head Boy/ Girl, Lily Slytherin, and Mrs. Figg
Message-ID: <8ptts1+bajh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1514

On Mrs. Figg: I am really starting to be bothered by not having any 
of the books in front of me, but if I remember correctly, it is 
implied that the "old gang" in which Dumbledore includes both Lupin 
and Arabella Figg is made up of witches and wizards.  And judging 
from Harry's memories of Mrs. Figg, she doesn't seem like much of a 
witch.  So I think it's likely that there are two Figgs that are 
related; Mrs. Figg being a Muggle and Arabella being her witch 
daughter seems likely.
On Lily having Slytherin blood:  When I hear people repeat this 
theory, I know how Hermione feels when people keep talking about 
apparating into Hogwarts.  In CoS Dumbeldore specifically says that 
Tom Riddle was the last heir of Slytherin.  Since he is one of the 
few wizards who knows that the Heir of Slytherin, Tom Riddle, and 
Voldemort are the same person, I would think he's done a lot of 
research into this matter, including Tom Riddle's family tree, so if 
anyone would know this, it would be him.  JKR has thrown more than a 
few curve balls before, but having Harry be descended from Slytherin 
on either side would directly contradict something she already said.  
I think the resemblance between Tom Riddle and Harry and James *is* 
just a red herring, as well as a thematice device (Voldy and Harry 
are two sides of the same coin, or something like that).  Harry's 
Slytherin-like qualities (i.e. Parseltongue and the Hat wanting to 
sort him into Slytherin House) can be explained by Dumbledore's 
theory that Voldy unwittingly transferred some of his power to Harry
On the other hand, I do subscribe to the theory that Harry is the 
heir of Gryffindor (possibly through Lily but almost definitely 
through James) and because of the Slytherin qualities he got from 
Voldy, is a sort of reconciliation of the two, which I think will be 
very important in the end.
On which of Harry's parents was the better wizard: Okay, I give up! 
There isn't enough evidence to say which was the better wizard, 
although I still personally believe that it was James.  But paternal/ 
maternal instincts, and Harry's own recollection of the event 
(i.e. "Lily take the boy and run!" or whatever the exact quote was) 
still strongly support my theory that James tried to hold Voldy off 
while Lily tried to get Harry to safety.





From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 19:38:14 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:38:14 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags?
In-Reply-To: <8ps797+hj8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pttr6+akg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1515

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
<<DO WIZARDS USE TEABAGS??? That is, I am reading Blaise's Second 
Chance Chapter Seven (because I read the post on-list that said she 
had posted Ch 7) and Snape makes Dumbledore's cup of tea with a  
teabag. Even among Muggles, a number of snobs refuse to use teabags,  
and wizard folk seem to cling more to old ways than us Muggles --  
maybe every cup of tea is made in a proper teapot with loose tea that 
is mostly kept out of the cup by the sieve in the spout of the pot.>>

Actually, it was chapter 6 ... I hope you liked it.  

Anyhow, I don't think that Tom Unwin would have kept tea leaves and a 
strainer in his cupboard, so it had to be tea bags in the story.  

On the wider question, someone else has already mentioned that Lupin 
used a teabag for Harry in PoA.  I would imagine that the situation 
is the same for the magical world as for Muggles, with some snobs and 
a majority of people who aren't so fussy.    

I don't think Dumbledore would be snobbish about his tea, and whilst 
there is a faint possibility that Snape, with his regard for perfect 
potions, might be, he probably wouldn't have cared about it when he 
was 18.  

~Blaise.     




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 15 19:51:06 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:51:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8ptnon+qaun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1516

What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in JKR's wizard
world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should Hogwarts, built
over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly modern, even luxurious
(prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and yet have no electricity?  The
plumbing must have existed in some form from the beginning, as the pipe
leading to the Chamber of Secrets was supposedly only known to Salazar
Slytherin, unless he had a devoted and silent minion who was around when
they installed the plumbing in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom.

Or why Arthur Weasley, who is in daily contact with "muggle artifacts,"
should be so hopeless inept when trying to interact with the Muggle world.

Or, as Vicki said, why do they use a Muggle-type train running from a hub of
the Muggle railway transportation system?

Or, as someone pointed out previously, why does Madame Malkin use pins to
hem up the robes of her customers?

Are we being a little obsessive?  Yeah... but it's fun!





=============================================
Website of the Week: http://www.higherawareness.com/
Current Book:   "Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" by Amanda Foreman
Quote:  There may be a hundred things you know about a person -- all of them
bad. But there may be just one thing you don't know, which if you did know,
would completely change your opinion.
=============================================





From lbuethe1 at home.com  Fri Sep 15 20:06:10 2000
From: lbuethe1 at home.com (Lana Buethe)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:06:10 -0700
Subject: Changes in my egroup
Message-ID: <00ad01c01f50$647afb80$03d50618@fedwy1.wa.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1517

I can't seem to figure out how to set up my egroup so that everyone's messages don't come to my e-mail address.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 19:38:35 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem and ghost food
Message-ID: <200009151958.e8FJwgo09331@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1518

and note that two wizards we also respect are probably
>pretty
>good at transfigurations - McGonagall who is animagus and teaches the
>subject - and Dumbledore who formerly taught the subject.

And Hermione is also really good at Transfiguration (then again, she's good at 
everything, but there are several very specific examles given of times when 
she is able to transfigure things the rest of the class can't).

Kathy




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 19:41:26 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:41:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible spoilers)
Message-ID: <200009152001.e8FK1Zo09943@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1519

>Second, Ok, she stated that no one ever asks her not to kill Hermione.  What 
if it is Hermione in B5?  Imagine what that would do to the poor fanfic 
writers!


Except, hasn't she already said in several interviews that it won't be Hagrid 
or Hermione?  I thought that was why everyone was so fixated on Ron, since she 
never said it WOULDN'T be him.

Kathy (who is already knocking wood, avoiding stepping on cracks, and doing 
any other superstitious thing she can to try to protect poor Ron!)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 20:04:01 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:04:01 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8ptvbh+skmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1520

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in JKR's 
wizard
> world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should Hogwarts, 
built
> over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly modern, even luxurious
> (prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and yet have no electricity?  
The
> plumbing must have existed in some form from the beginning, as the 
pipe
> leading to the Chamber of Secrets was supposedly only known to 
Salazar
> Slytherin, unless he had a devoted and silent minion who was around 
when
> they installed the plumbing in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom.



Sister Mary Lunatic [mailto:klaatu at primenet.com] wrote:

> What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in 
> JKR's wizard
> world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should 
> Hogwarts, built
> over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly modern, even luxurious
> (prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and yet have no 
> electricity?  The
> plumbing must have existed in some form from the beginning, 
> as the pipe
> leading to the Chamber of Secrets was supposedly only known to 
Salazar
> Slytherin, unless he had a devoted and silent minion who was 
> around when
> they installed the plumbing in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom.

Good thought - and here's a possible explanation:
The Chamber of Secrets is a real place in Hogwarts. When the plumbing 
was installed in the castle a few hundred years ago, it inadvertantly 
tapped into the Chamber, or came close enough to the plumbing that an 
heir of Slytherin (say, Tom Riddle) could enter the chamber from some 
other method, and magically create a tube from the Chamber to the 
Pipes, which would give the Bassilik a way out of the Chamber into 
the pipes. 
Until this point, presume that the entrance to the Chamber was far 
removed from the "heart" of the school, and as no apparating was 
possible, it would've taken Tom a while to reach it when he wanted 
to. So, to make it easier and quicker for him to get into the 
Chamber, he created an enterance in Myrtle's bathroom (tom as the 
devoted & silent minion of slytherin) to the Chamber - an entrance 
only a parseltongue could use (and at that point, he's the only 
parseltongue in school)
We know from what Harry hears that the Bassilik has basically been in 
hibernation for the prior 50 years (did Tom put it to sleep? and 
after becoming Voldemort, why didn't he Imperius someone at Hogwarts 
to release the Bassilik into the Great Hall while it was filled with 
people? great way to conquer the school!)
My big question is, how did Ginny, who isn't a Parselmouth, open the 
chamber? Was Tom, at those points, speaking through her?

The other explanation is, the plumbing has always existed in the 
school, and is actually based on ancient roman indoor plumbing, which 
did exist, and which predates the founding of the school.




From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 19:49:04 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:49:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Straight from the horse's mouth... (possible  spoilers)
Message-ID: <200009152009.e8FK9Io11210@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1521

>Wondering what the clock was doing (or who was looking at it) while Ginny
>was in the Chamber of Secrets...


...or while Ron was going after the Sorceror's Stone with Harry and 
Hermione...or when he was attacked by Peter Pettigrew...




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep 15 21:24:55 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:24:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changes in my egroup
Message-ID: <v02140b32b5e844044d26@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1522

>
>I can't seem to figure out how to set up my egroup so that everyone's
>messages don't come to my e-mail address.
>
>
Umm...you can't do that.  That's sort of the point of a mailing list, that
any message that anyone sends to the group comes to you.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 15 20:29:30 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:29:30 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8pu0ra+hdem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1523

Blaise wrote:
On the wider question, someone else has already mentioned that Lupin 
used a teabag for Harry in PoA.  I would imagine that the situation 
is the same for the magical world as for Muggles, with some snobs and 
a majority of people who aren't so fussy.    
-----------------------------------

Harumph schmumph :-)  preferring properly made tea doesn't 
necessarily make one a snob.  Plain old good quality looseleaf black 
tea is a heck of a lot cheaper than teabags.  And in the wizarding 
world, it just makes sense to me that most people wouldn't have gone 
the teabag route, simply because they don't seem to add a lot of 
muggle inventions to their repetoire, and because they seem to have 
simple spells for cooking and cleaning up that would take care of any 
tealeaf fuss.  The only thing I can say is that perhaps they get much 
of their food supplies from muggle suppliers, and since even in the 
UK many/most people have gone to teabags, that is what the wizarding 
world is reduced to buying.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in JKR's 
wizard> world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should 
Hogwarts, built > over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly 
modern, even luxurious > (prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and 
yet have no electricity?  The > plumbing must have existed in some 
form from the beginning, as the pipe > leading to the Chamber of 
Secrets was supposedly only known to Salazar > Slytherin,

Yeah - I think some of this falls under the "I'm just writing a 
book / not proving the general theory of relativity and anything 
within reason that makes the story better will go in even if there 
are slight inconsistencies with a previous one liner" explanation.

However, trying to come up with intra universe (as I call them) 
explanations can be a lot of fun.  How about this.  Remember that 
piping and indoor plumbing has actually been around since Roman 
times.  Perhaps the wizarding world never lost those abilities and so 
when Hogwarts was built, it was built with some effective but 
somewhat crude plumbing and that this has simply been kept up and 
modernized as time went on.  Naturally, Salazar knew the existence of 
the plumbing as built and then Tom Riddle explored the modernized 
pipes when he was at school 50 years ago and opened the Chamber of 
Secrets then.

> Or why Arthur Weasley, who is in daily contact with "muggle 
artifacts,"> should be so hopeless inept when trying to interact with 
the Muggle world.


My favorite explanation is from the lister who explained it about a 
month ago "that's because he works for government."

Vicki




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 15 20:33:05 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:33:05 -0000
Subject: Changes in my egroup
In-Reply-To: <v02140b32b5e844044d26@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <8pu121+sve3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1524


Sorry to be correcting Lori, but on egroups lists, you can set it so 
you just read the posts on the web. Just go to 
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/HPforGrownups?referer=1 and click on 
the button in front of "Don't send me email, I'll read the messages 
at the Web site" 

The original post was a little confusing - I assume that the sender 
doesn't want to unsubscribe totally?

> >
> >I can't seem to figure out how to set up my egroup so that 
everyone's
> >messages don't come to my e-mail address.
> >
> >
> Umm...you can't do that.  That's sort of the point of a 
> mailing list, that
> any message that anyone sends to the group comes to you.
> 
> Lori






From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 15 20:23:45 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:23:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating
Message-ID: <200009152044.e8FKiIo17078@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1525

>On Lily having Slytherin blood:  When I hear people repeat this
>theory, I know how Hermione feels when people keep talking about
>apparating into Hogwarts.

Speaking of this, does anyone else have a feeling that this will be important 
later?  I can't imagine how, but the fact that Hermione has mentioned this 
about 4000 times must mean something!

Another aside: this makes me think of a funny moment from "Draco Dormiens" on 
ff.net (if you haven't read it yet, do.  It's one of the more believable 
Draco-turns-good-guy fics out there).  Anyway, Draco mentions to Hermione that 
he has read Hogwarts: A History.  (I just love picturing the look on 
Hermione's face at this.) OK, it sounds dumb, but it's a very funny scene, so 
just go read it!

Kathy




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 15 20:56:45 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:56:45 +0100
Subject: Still on death, the triad and the marauders
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEFJCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1526

"As for the death that will half-crucify JKR (allegedly in Book 5)"

Is this that the death will half-crucify JKR to write? Or is it that her
fans will crucify her when they find out who it is? Or is it both of these?

"I agree with Simon btw.  It squares nicely with my balance arguments ---
that is, the talents/skills of Harry and Hermione are far more balanced than
the talents/skills of Ron and Hermione (or Harry and Ron for that matter)."

Doh! I gave support to the Harry/Hermione camp. I must watch I write in
future.

"The fact that James was Head Boy & Quidditch star might indicate that he
was top in his year, but then again, neither of those honors necessarily
signal natural magical abilities."

I have always supposed that prefects and then head boy and girl are mainly
given due to academic performance.  This can be seen as Charlie was great at
Quidditch but was not head boy. This must make James the perfect person!
Great at sport and brilliant grades.

I would guess that natural magical skill may be easier to see before they go
to Hogwarts. It would be interesting to see which spells they could work out
how to do.

Simon





From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 21:26:29 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:26:29 -0000
Subject: .... and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8pu0ra+hdem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pu466+lok4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1527


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" 
<klaatu at p...> 
> wrote:
> > What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in
JKR's 
> wizard> world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should 
> Hogwarts, built > over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly 
> modern, even luxurious > (prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and 
> yet have no electricity?  

Plumbing is a luxury that could be got from the Muggles, and from a 
sanitation/aesthetic quality of life standpoint is a desirable
upgrade 
-  - plus, the Roman system is a good thought.  Modern plumbing is 
MUCH nicer, and more comfortable than open hole privies or outhouses.
And the sanitation benefits, given a modern form of sewage, are very 
good at reducing diseases.  If sewage does discharge into the lake,
as 
we have discusses, I'd bet there is a magical transfiguration system 
of sewage into non-offensive fertilizer that the mer-people use on 
their aquaculture farms!

  Electricity is less relevant, less of an necessary upgrade, and is 
an actual aesthetic loss.  If your candles are magically bright,
never 
burn out, are never a fire hazard, and you have house elves to do all 
the cooking  - and they probably prefer flame-based cooking as well - 
electricity is not a worthwile improvement - you don't even need 
computers, as you can work out advanced math with an enchanted
abacus; 
you don't need electric-eye sensors when magic eyes will do, and you 
don't need anything particularly motor-driven when you can magically 
animate most things.

In short, there are valid wizardly reasons to go to modern plumbing, 
but not to bother with "ecleckticity".

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 15 21:28:18 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:28:18 -0000
Subject: .... and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8pu466+lok4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pu49i+v549@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1528

I wrote:

> And the sanitation benefits, given a modern form of sewage *, are 
very 
> good at reducing diseases.  


*Insert the word 'treatment' here.

-Brooks




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Fri Sep 15 22:29:24 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:29:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <p04310100b5e850f50220@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1529

>Or why Arthur Weasley, who is in daily contact with "muggle artifacts,"
>should be so hopeless inept when trying to interact with the Muggle world.

Having contact with things doesn't necessarily mean that you 
understand them, understand their context in the world, or know how 
to use them. Having worked computer technical support, I can 
certainly state under no uncertain terms that this happens to 
Muggles, too.

>Or, as Vicki said, why do they use a Muggle-type train running from a hub of
>the Muggle railway transportation system?

It simplifies the logistics of getting several hundred students to 
one place at one time. Remember the whole problem with getting 
several thousand to the World Cup using portkeys? Imagine having to 
come up with a whole new set of portkeys every year.

>Or, as someone pointed out previously, why does Madame Malkin use pins to
>hem up the robes of her customers?
>
>Are we being a little obsessive?  Yeah... but it's fun!

There are varying levels of wizarding practicality. You can point out 
that Madame Malkin uses pins but Ron apparently doesn't know how to 
use scissors to remove lace from a robe. I would guess that different 
wizards adopt different things. Sometimes simple is better -- Madame 
Malkin may know a "Stitch Witchery" spell (for those of you who don't 
sew, Stitch Witchery is an actual product -- it's basically dried 
cloth glue) to make cloth stick to itself instead of  using pins, but 
may find that it can be a touchy spell that may damage fabric or 
cause it to fuse prematurely. Also, perhaps they are enchanted pins 
that do the sewing themselves. The book only mentions that Madame 
Malkin was pinning up Harry's robes, but no mention was ever made of 
the hems being sewed. Perhaps she puts the pins in place that, when 
adjusted to her taste, do the sewing for her.

So, how do we explain that Ron was using a severing spell instead of 
scissors? Well, it may be that over the centuries, wizards never had 
to bother adopting Muggle technology because they could do better 
with magic. Therefore, use of Muggle artifacts fell into overall 
disuse. This may have led, as time goes on, to wizards doing things 
in an impractical way that is actually more complicated than using a 
tool, but either (a) they like to show off and do it the magical way, 
or (b) they are simply ignorant of Muggle tools and don't know how 
else to do it.

I am sure there are no hard and fast rules. Just because something is 
the most efficient way doesn't mean it is always adopted, and 
sometimes just because something is "slicker" doesn't mean it's the 
best way to do it. A spell can be used for pinning robes, but maybe 
Madame Malkin just likes to use pins. Maybe Ron has never seen 
scissors.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Fri Sep 15 22:24:37 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (skywalker1 at ibm.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:24:37 -0000
Subject: Theory about Priori Encantatem discrepancy
Message-ID: <8pu7j5+dhac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1530

Hello all,
   I've only recently joined and wanted to introduce myself.  As an 
adult and a huge Harry Potter fan, this site is just what the doctor 
ordered.
   Anyway, I also have been puzzled by the order Voldy's victims 
emerged from his wand.  Well, it suddenly occurred to me today that 
perhaps Lilly and James knew that Voldy was after Harry and took some 
extra last minute precautions to protect him.  What if James gave 
Harry a polyjuice potion so he looked like James and then James drank 
one himself to look like Harry?  That way Harry would be protected 
since Voldy wasn't after James.  The way I envision it, Lilly and 
James are interrupted before they can hide Harry and Voldy attacks 
Harry (whom he believes is James) seeing him as his biggest 
obstacle.  Lilly (knowing it's really Harry) tries to protect him 
(the reason for the screams that Harry hears when the dementors are 
near in PoA) but the spell hits Harry and is reflected by the charm 
of his mother's love.  The force of Love from the reflected spell 
builds inside Voldemort and, like matter and anti-matter, explodes 
killing Lilly and James and nearly killing Voldy himself (Harry being 
still protected by the charm).  So Voldy thinks he killed James first 
but, assuming Lilly was near Harry trying to protect him, she is 
closer to the blast and is killed first (admittedly by a split 
second).
   Now I realize this theory has a hole or two in it.  This is all I 
could work out after about 30 minutes thought.  Anyway, I'd like to 
hear what you all think.  





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 15 22:41:26 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:41:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changes in my egroup
In-Reply-To: <8pu121+sve3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEAPCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1531

Alternatively, you can go to the Main Page of the club, and at the top
should be a link that says "MY GROUPS" -- click on that and it will list all
the egroups you belong to, and what your delivery options are set to.



-----Original Message-----
From: heidi tandy [mailto:heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 1:33 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changes in my egroup

Sorry to be correcting Lori, but on egroups lists, you can set it so
you just read the posts on the web. Just go to
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/HPforGrownups?referer=1 and click on
the button in front of "Don't send me email, I'll read the messages
at the Web site"

The original post was a little confusing - I assume that the sender
doesn't want to unsubscribe totally?

> >
> >I can't seem to figure out how to set up my egroup so that
everyone's
> >messages don't come to my e-mail address.
> >
> >
> Umm...you can't do that.  That's sort of the point of a
> mailing list, that
> any message that anyone sends to the group comes to you.
>
> Lori




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 15 23:05:36 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:05:36 -0000
Subject: Head Boy/ Girl, Lily Slytherin, and Mrs. Figg
In-Reply-To: <8ptts1+bajh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pua00+9ech@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1532

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> > On Lily having Slytherin blood:  When I hear people repeat this 
> theory, I know how Hermione feels when people keep talking about 
> apparating into Hogwarts.  In CoS Dumbeldore specifically says that 
> Tom Riddle was the last heir of Slytherin.  Since he is one of the 
> few wizards who knows that the Heir of Slytherin, Tom Riddle, and 
> Voldemort are the same person, I would think he's done a lot of 
> research into this matter, including Tom Riddle's family tree, so 
if 
> anyone would know this, it would be him.  JKR has thrown more than 
a 
> few curve balls before, but having Harry be descended from 
Slytherin 
> on either side would directly contradict something she already 
said.  
> I think the resemblance between Tom Riddle and Harry and James *is* 
> just a red herring, as well as a thematice device (Voldy and Harry 
> are two sides of the same coin, or something like that).  Harry's 
> Slytherin-like qualities (i.e. Parseltongue and the Hat wanting to 
> sort him into Slytherin House) can be explained by Dumbledore's 
> theory that Voldy unwittingly transferred some of his power to Harry
> On the other hand, I do subscribe to the theory that Harry is the 
> heir of Gryffindor (possibly through Lily but almost definitely 
> through James) and because of the Slytherin qualities he got from 
> Voldy, is a sort of reconciliation of the two, which I think will 
be 
> very important in the end.

--------------
Okay, just found this, have to throw it in.

My Webster's American Dictionary, College Edition, 1997, defines Heir 
as:  2b--(in civil law) a person who succeeds to the place of a 
deceased person and assumes the rights and obligations of the 
deceased.  3-- a personwho inherits or is entitled to inherit the 
rank, title, or position of another, 4-- a person or group considered 
as inheriting the tradition, talent, etc., of a predecessor.
 1 and 2a are both about inheriting property, etc., like from a will.
Nowhere does it say anything about an heir being descendant from a 
person, bloodline, lineage, etc.  Only the legality of being an 
heir.  Sort of a passing of the baton.  can anyone else find a 
definition of heir that includes ancestry?

And, yes, chances are vey good that the physical resemblances (I 
didn't mean parseltongue) are just a red herring to throw us on the 
wrong track.

Kelley 





From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep 16 00:08:43 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:08:43 CDT
Subject: Theory about Priori Incantatum discrepancy
Message-ID: <F138LaqSOc7wo95EFk2000088b8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1533

Hi:

<<<Well, it suddenly occurred to me today that perhaps Lilly and James knew 
that Voldy was after Harry and took some extra last minute precautions to 
protect him.  What if James gave Harry a polyjuice potion so he looked like 
James and then James drank one himself to look like Harry?  That way Harry 
would be protected since Voldy wasn't after James.>>>

Welcome to the Club Skywalker.  The problems I see with your theory are:

1.  It would seem that Voldemort took the Potters by surprise. They knew he 
was after them (or after the male Potters or after just Harry), but they 
believed they were protected by the fidelius charm.  You say Voldemort 
wasn't after James, but we don't know that.  All we know is that he wasn't 
after Lily ("she needn't have died").  Some believe that Voldemort was after 
both male Potters.  Others, like me, think Harry was his main or sole target 
even.  But, point is -- we don't know whether he wanted to kill James Potter 
or not.

Anyway, the Potters had the fidelius charm on their secret house in Godric's 
Hollow.  They probably knew that a spy had been informing Voldemort of their 
movements (Dumbledore knew this, as did Remus & Sirius).  But, as far as 
they knew, the fidelius charm was keeping them safe.  James' words (that we 
hear through Harry in PoA) sound panicked to me -- they don't strike me as 
the words of a man who has some polyjuice handy and a plan at the ready.

2.  Polyjuice potion, from what we remember from CoS, takes a long time to 
brew.  And, it has some rather complicated and hard-to-come-by ingredients.  
I don't imagine the Potters had a batch just stewing there. I rather think 
they thought they were safe and were taken completely by surprise.

I personally like Trina's theory the best so far - she's the one who said 
that maybe the discrepancy can be explained because Harry, wanting 
desperately to see his father that night in the graveyard, somehow made the 
figures reverse before coming out of the wand (Harry using his abilities to 
"make things happen" with innate magical power).

But, we should keep theorizing I suppose.  Skywalker's theory is original -- 
I've not heard anyone mention the polyjuice theory before.

Penny
_________________________________________________________________________
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 16 00:15:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:15:53 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Update from wbstore.com!]
Message-ID: <39C2BBB9.ABA3AFD@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1534


                   [Image][Image]
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   An owl for heidi!
   The Harry Potter collection of official gifts and
   collectibles at wbstore.com has expanded! Follow this
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   Know other Harry Potter fans? Please forward this news
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   Also check out our Daffy Days clearance going on now!
   Save 50% off the markdown price.

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From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 01:47:39 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:47:39 -0000
Subject: FAQ status
In-Reply-To: <39C13507.5D084597@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8pujfr+trvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1535

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> The FAQs Committee is hard at work at the 60 some-odd substantive
> FAQs that will hopefully be posted sometime in early to mid October.
> 

This is probably an unreasonable request considering that I did not 
volunteer to help write the FAQ, but would it be possible to post a 
list of the 60 FAQs? (Just the questions, I mean.)  Just so that the 
rest of us could think of even more questions, thus adding more work 
for the FAQ-writers.  Hmmm....now that I have read what I just wrote, 
I can understand it if you decline my request.  But I have been 
thinking lately about how the same questions pop up over and over and 
over and over again, and it sure would be nice to be sure that next 
time someone asks about that same old tired topic we will just be 
able to say -- FAQ #37 (or whatever).

- Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 02:02:09 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 02:02:09 -0000
Subject: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8prq5r+obh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pukb1+c3od@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1536

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he?  I know that 
> doesn't automatically make him the best wizard, but it is some 
> evidence.  [snip] Not that Lily was timid or defenseless 
> (I imagine her as having just as much a sense of adventure and 
> mischief as James) but it just makes sense to me that James would 
be 
> the one to stay and fight--it fits what we know of his personality 
> very well.

Actually, it is pretty clearly stated (by Hagrid in PS/SS, IIRC) that 
James and Lily were Head Boy AND Head Girl, implying that they were 
both very skilled at magic.  We know more about James that we do 
about Lily, but to assume that therefore he is more likely to fight 
Voldy than Lily is simply not logical.  In fact, it seems to me to be 
a fairly sexist assumption.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 02:34:41 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 02:34:41 -0000
Subject: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8pukb1+c3od@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pum81+16ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1537


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
> wrote:
> > James was first in his class at Hogwarts, wasn't he?  I know that 
> > doesn't automatically make him the best wizard, but it is some 
> > evidence.  [snip] 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> Actually, it is pretty clearly stated (by Hagrid in PS/SS, IIRC) 
that > James and Lily were Head Boy AND Head Girl, implying that they 
were > both very skilled at magic.  We know more about James that we 
do > about Lily, but to assume that therefore he is more likely to 
fight > Voldy than Lily is simply not logical.  In fact, it seems to 
me to be > a fairly sexist assumption.

For some strange reason, I think that it has been fairly well implied 
that if there was any imbalance in the Potters' wizarding abilities, 
Lily would have come out on top.

Ebony (dropping the AngieJ b/c it's confusing)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 02:59:39 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 02:59:39 -0000
Subject: First in class (was: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <p04310102b5e7ca8f6e59@[24.24.42.142]>
Message-ID: <8punms+iipv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1538

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "B.C. French" <bcfrench at r...> wrote:
> At 3:27 AM +0000 9/15/00, Rita Winston wrote:
> > [A theory that James graduated first in his year, Severus second, 
> > Remus third, and Sirius fourth.]
> > But if Lily was in the same year as the Marauders rather
> > than the next year, where did she rank in those standings?
 
> She was Head Girl. Hagrid mentioned it in Book 1.

Barbara, I see from your sig that you are a breeder of pedigreed cats 
(long-haired Aby's). Don't Cat Shows choose Best and Best Opposite 
Sex (sometimes abbreviated BOX, which confused the hell out of me)in 
each category? Similarly, it could be that the girl with the best 
grades (and other admirable traits) graduated first in her class but 
the boy with the best grades (etc) graduated only 30th in the class, 
as the top 29 students all were girls.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 03:05:39 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:05:39 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8ptna3+pa8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8puo23+ih4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1539

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Flying Ford Anglia"
<neilward at d...> 
wrote:

> I agree that he probably meant Harry's "only living relatives", but 
> his use of the word "family" left a sliver of a glimmer of a 
> possibility that there might be another living relative who is, 
> perhaps, completely mad, totally unsuitable for parenting and
living 
> in a cave on Easter Island... or who is Mrs Figg.  No?  Okay then.

Actually, I thought you might be hinting at a blood relative who had 
gone over to Voldemort and thus divorced his/her family.

As for Mrs. Figg, it is not clear that she is less suitable for 
parenting than the Dursleys. 




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 03:11:14 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:11:14 -0000
Subject: Canal Boats (was:Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8ptqis+utl2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8puoci+sn3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1540

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> In the old days a major means of transport around the UK in some
> areas was canals and towboats(snip)  

This spring (I *think* it was March) SMITHSONIAN magazine had a 
pretty photo essay on narrowboats (the British canal boats) and the 
people who have revived them. 

One of whom (altho' not in the article) was at that time on an HP 
e-mail-list. His boat's web site is www.grannybuttons.com




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Sep 16 04:16:38 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:16:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changes in my egroup
Message-ID: <v02140b34b5e8a484f94b@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1541

>
>
>Sorry to be correcting Lori, but on egroups lists, you can set it so
>you just read the posts on the web. Just go to
>http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/HPforGrownups?referer=1 and click on
>the button in front of "Don't send me email, I'll read the messages
>at the Web site"
>
Oh yes, I'm sorry, you're right of course, Heidi.  I almost forget that
there is  No Mail option, I never use mine.  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 03:36:04 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:36:04 -0000
Subject: Plumbing. Electricity.
Message-ID: <8pupr4+cqjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1542

IIRC Hermione told Harry in GoF (in reference to 'bugging') 
that electricity and electronics cannot work around Hogwarts 
because the magical field is too intense. (OH!!! Perhaps that, rather 
than nostalgia, is why the Hogwarts Express is a steam train? 
Boiling its water with magic rather than with coal?)

The Muggle Studies homework essay "Why do Muggles need electricity?" 
suggests that the wizard folk believe that Muggles have to invent 
ways to imitate the things wizards do by magic and therefore invented 
electricity, internal combustion engine, gas light, steam power, wind 
mills, water mills, because Muggles don't have candles and hearths 
that burn without fuel and can't make an object move without using 
some kind of energy from a power source (muscle power, etc) and so 
on. (Does magic violate the Laws of Thermodynamics? BROOKS???)

According to that theory, the wizards might have had flush toilets 
and baths with hot and cold running water since Atlantis, and both 
Roman and modern plumbing are attempts by Muggles to imitate what a 
Muggle visitor saw in a wizard home, just as gas light was a way to 
imitate the wall-sconce candles that light automatically when an 
authorized user enters the room, and bicycles and automobiles are 
attempts to imitate self-moving carts or chairs which we readers 
haven't actually seen.

On another tentacle, my vague understanding of plumbing is that, 
except for heating the hot water, it's all done by storing the water 
in a high enough tank that gravity is what moves the water through 
the system, and physical plugs that are mechanically put in place and 
removed are what stops it from moving. No magic is needed except to 
heat the hot water, refill those prefects' bathroom taps with their 
sweet lotions, and elevate the water into the storage tank. 

So it didn't need wizards to invent it. Actually, I kind of think  
that if wizards HAD invented wizard plumbing, it wouldn't have pipes 
running through the walls, it would have either creation  of water at 
the tap end and destruction of water at the drain end (why not create 
water at the tap end? Just change a never-empty pitcher of wine 
into a never-empty pitcher of hot water! A known technology!) or the 
water would move through the system by teleportation rather than by 
hydraulics.

Which suggests that the wizards copied their plumbing from Muggles, 
not until after Muggles had invented it, and just added a few fancy 
touches. As they presumably did with with steam trains and 
photographs and clocks. Perhaps they just aren't very good at 
inventing anything really NEW.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 16 03:41:17 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:41:17 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem, and Harry's brand of  Magic
Message-ID: <8puq4t+q75o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1543

There seems to have been a lot of new theories on the reverse order 
lately (or at least more posts on the matter). I thought the one 
about polyjuice was interesting but I don't buy it (no offence).  I 
have to agree w/ Penny that the Potters didn't know what was coming. 
I also argree with Penny in that Harry himself made his father come 
first.  After all it was only by Harry's will that ANYTHING came out 
of Voldemort's wand, if V. had had the stronger will Harry's wand 
would have been the wand spitting up spells, right?

???-Another question that this brings up is if Harry had been able to 
force EVERY spell from V's wand what would have happened...I sort of 
thought that the wand would explode and that could have killed 
Voldemort as well.  Any ideas of what else might of happened?

Last of all there is Harry's own brand of magic, i.e. Blowing up Aunt 
Marge, making V's and regurgitate spells, the disappearing glass of 
the boa's cage etc....So can most wizards do this type of spontaneous 
magic?  I don't remember any specific evidence though there may be 
some (small wizards that don't need wands, did we see this in GoF?) 
of these that we don't know and that I simply can't remember and am 
to lazy to search for examples...

Well now, comments?

Scott 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 03:41:51 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:41:51 -0000
Subject: Teaching, HP and C.S. Lewis (long)
In-Reply-To: <8ps44b+i1aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8puq5v+nv31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1544

Hello, everyone!  TGIF!

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> > I say, probably yes. I am prejudiced on the subject because I 
went to > a (public) primary school in a very properous, upper-middle-
class, > white suburb, where all the other children hated me and beat 
up on > me, and the teachers couldn't think of anything to do about 
it/me > except to give me various mild punishments (such as standing 
in the> corner) for my offenses such as daydreaming during class and 
reading > when I was supposed to be playing with the other kids 
during recess. 

This is probably why I don't see any of Our Heroes teaching at 
Hogwarts after all is said and done.  Not only would that be 
anticlimatic, it is a research proven fact that most elementary and 
secondary educators had very positive K-12 school experiences.  I am 
a teacher today because the majority of my K-12 teachers were 
*awesome*.  Snape doesn't exactly inspire bright young minds to 
follow in his footsteps. 

(BTW, Brooks, I hated QA too.  And for some strange reason, *every* 
science teacher I had from middle school through college could 
outSnape Snape.)

> > Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about anywhere 
> > these days, could get away with treating students as bad as Snape 
> > does.  
> 
> See above.

Amen.  There is a teacher on our fifth grade team who I am going to 
have to speak to soon re: recurring allegations of verbal abuse.  Now 
I'm not trying to defend his behavior.  The man is going through 
a personal situation that is beyond his control.  Unlike office 
workers, when we have a bad day we not only get upbraided by the 
boss, but we also have the wrath of parents and the disdain of 
students to face.  

You are always on stage--even when you're outside of school--I see my 
students and their parents *everywhere*. Needless to say, you have to 
watch yourself.  People have lost their licensure for being caught in 
all kinds of compromising situations--outside of school!  Many of you 
on this list, tolerant as you are, do not want your child's 
kindergarten teacher being ______, engaging in _______, or seen at 
_____.

It takes everything you have physically, emotionally, mentally, and 
spiritually to do this job--and you run the risk that even when you 
invest 110%, there's no guarantee that you'll ever see the return.  
It gets to be a little much sometimes.

And even then, you still get blamed.  Yesterday a parent with a Ph.D 
(he made sure that we knew *that*) attacked me during Orientation for 
not doing literature with mainly American characters--he disagreed 
very loudly and publicly with my multicultural/world lit focus this 
school year.  Last year he complained about our teaching staff not 
having M.A./Ed.S. degrees.  I'm bracing myself for a minor headache 
this school year as his daughter is in my homeroom.  There's at least 
one in every bunch.  :)

> > I think part of what JKR is trying to teach us is to always 
> > QUESTION AUTHORITY, QUESTION OUR ASSUMPTIONS, and always be 
> > vigilant about SEEKING THE TRUTH.
> 
> Some people on some of these HP lists have posted a few anti-HP 
> Letters to the Editor which specifically stated that one of the 
> reasons HP should be banned is that it teaches chilldren to 
question authority.

I tell my students the exact opposite.  Never have I told a 
child, "Because I'm the teacher and I said so."  My generation 
questions *everything*--our boomer parents, our beleaguered school 
systems, our employers, the state of the world we live in, even dusty 
societal dogma.  

This is what the opposition among Christians re: Harry Potter boils 
down to.  There are some Christians who feel that they are to have 
unquestioning obedience to an earthly authority.  Most of these 
Muggles have not read the books or even know much about them.  What 
has happened is that they received misinformation from their pastor 
or their paranoid friend and jumped to conclusions.  They are not bad 
people--they just believe that their salvation depends on total 
obedience to the line of "Do not allow your little ones to be 
corrupted by this Harry Potter garbage!"

I, Ebony, hold that the Bible is the unerring, infallible Word of 
God.  Yet I read Harry Potter enthusiastically.  This may seem like a 
huge contradiction to some, but to me it makes perfect sense.  This 
is because I make it a point to study the Bible for myself and not 
just rely on my pastor for information.  I have many parallel 
versions, commentaries, etc. for serious study.  For devotional 
reading I use the NIV (Carole's recommendation). 

Christians who believe that one should not question authority or God 
must not be reading the same Bible that I've read.  You can count on 
the Bible greats for asking questions of man and Creator.  Jesus 
Himself lead the pack--like any good teacher, He was a master the 
Socratic method.  In the NT, for instance, the Berean church was 
commended for checking *everything* that Paul said to them with study 
of the Scripture.  Automatons aren't of much use in Biblical 
Christianity.

Christianity is not all church and religious dogma.  It's not all 
fluffy pink bunnies and rainbows and smiles either.  The person who 
explains it best to those who do not share our beliefs IMO is C.S. 
Lewis in his *Mere Christianity*.  He, like I, converted to 
Christianity after personal searching and study of many other belief 
systems.  We weren't born to it.  Sometimes I think that helps.  :)

Also IMO--if Lewis (a friend of Tolkien) were alive today, I am sure 
that he would enjoy Harry Potter.  Probably have some interesting 
conversations with Brooks about his World War II parallel theories.

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 03:41:44 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:41:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily
References: <8ptnq5+d2lv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f201c01f90$0d0113e0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1545

That's something I wondered, too.  Everyone's saying how Harry will end up as Head Boy.  The problem with that, I think someone else might be getting better grades than he (he's passing.  That doesn't mean his top of the class).  How do we know that he will end up HB?  If Snape has his way, of couse, Harry won't last that long at Hogwarts!  (He keeps threatening to expel him!)    


Grins!
Dee






Thanks, Heidi! (And hi, by the way.) I had forgotten.It always rather 
surprised me that James managed to be Head Boy, given his apparent 
rule-breaking personality. Of course, I know very little about what 
actually goes in to choosing a Head Boy - grades, behavior, 
attendance? Quidditch skills?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 03:45:10 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:45:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursley protection, was Straight from the horse's mouth... 
References: <8pto0o+hmef@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f901c01f90$85efa280$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1546

Brooks,
You mentioned ( I still think "WHAT that was in GoF" (meaning corporate but weak 
mini-Voldy) was a Voldy-Homunculus.)  What exactly is that?  I vaguely recall seeing the word in my AD&D, but it's been too long since I opened that book (and I really need to--have to create a character sheet for my ffrpg character!)

Thanks ahead of time!

(And thanks for the CAT!  To everyone--I filed all the answers under Theory of Relativity in the folders section--I was reminded a bit of my friend's husband's comments of E=mc^y *** don't ask.  If you want to know more about that, I'll send you HIS email!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 03:57:40 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:57:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
References: <8ptvbh+skmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015f01c01f92$42b02420$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1547

Heidi,
This is exactly what I thought.  That prefect bathroom sounds like something Roman!  Grins.

Dee.

The other explanation is, the plumbing has always existed in the 
school, and is actually based on ancient roman indoor plumbing, which 
did exist, and which predates the founding of the school.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 04:17:34 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:17:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's brand of  Magic
In-Reply-To: <8puq4t+q75o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8pus8u+g30s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1548

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Last of all there is Harry's own brand of magic, i.e. Blowing up
> Aunt Marge, making V's and regurgitate spells, the disappearing 
> glass of the boa's cage etc....So can most wizards do this type of
> spontaneous magic? 

Book 1. Hagrid appears and tells Harry that he's a wizard. Harry says 
there must be some mistake; he doesn't have magic powers. Hagrid 
grins and asks him if strange things ever happen around him when he 
is angry or upset. And indeed they had, like flying to the roof of 
the school cafeteria while running away from Dudley's gang. Hagrid 
said it as if this normally happen with little wizards, not unique 
to Harry.

Book 2. Ron confesses his phobia of spiders and attributes it to (I 
forget which twin) having turned his teddy into a spider 'just 
because I broke his toy broomstick' when Ron was three. If Ron was 
three, the twin was five, and I doubt he was using a wand at five.

When did we meet Colin Creevey? He tells Harry that when he got the 
letter from Hogwarts, his parents were terribly relieved to find that 
there was an explanation (magic) for all those strange things he 
could do.




From drohlede at neo.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 04:15:08 2000
From: drohlede at neo.rr.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:15:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canal Boats (was:Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
References: <8puoci+sn3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02a101c01f94$b333a120$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1549

Rita. Brook, and others,

Am I right that there used to be an entire class of people--watergypsies, who lived on canal in UK like the caravans of gypsies do/did on land?  I thought someone mentioned these folks back when we were discussing homeschooling?

Dee, trying to remember, but tooo many posts!


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 11:11 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canal Boats (was:Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
  > In the old days a major means of transport around the UK in some
  > areas was canals and towboats(snip)  

  This spring (I *think* it was March) SMITHSONIAN magazine had a 
  pretty photo essay on narrowboats (the British canal boats) and the 
  people who have revived them. 

  One of whom (altho' not in the article) was at that time on an HP 
  e-mail-list. His boat's web site is www.grannybuttons.com


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 04:23:17 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:23:17 -0000
Subject: Head Boy (was:Lily
In-Reply-To: <00f201c01f90$0d0113e0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8pusjl+hp5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1550

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <drohlede at n...> wrote:
> That's something I wondered, too.  Everyone's saying how Harry will 
> end up as Head Boy.  The problem with that, I think someone else
> might be getting better grades than he 

I think they take multiple factors into consideration when 
selecting the Head Boy and Head Girl. The ideal Head Boy or Head Girl 
would be first in the class by grades, a perfect example of good 
behavior, admired by the other students, and liked by the other 
students. Percy had good grades and good behavior, and he was not 
hated by his classmates, but I can't imagine he was tremendously 
popular. James had good grades and was popular and admired, but was a 
rotten example of behavior. 






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 16 03:59:45 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:59:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plumbing. Electricity.
References: <8pupr4+cqjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C2F031.EDD44938@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1551



Rita Winston wrote:

IIRC Hermione told Harry in GoF (in reference to 'bugging')

> that electricity and electronics cannot work around Hogwarts
> because the magical field is too intense. (OH!!! Perhaps that, rather
> than nostalgia, is why the Hogwarts Express is a steam train?
> Boiling its water with magic rather than with coal?)
>
> The Muggle Studies homework essay "Why do Muggles need electricity?"
> suggests that the wizard folk believe that Muggles have to invent
> ways to imitate the things wizards do by magic and therefore invented
> electricity, internal combustion engine, gas light, steam power, wind
> mills, water mills, because Muggles don't have candles and hearths
> that burn without fuel and can't make an object move without using
> some kind of energy from a power source (muscle power, etc) and so
> on.

This relates to the very interesting article I've mentioned before by a
Professor Alan Jacobs at

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0001/reviews/jacobs.html

who argues (as a reassurance to nervous Christians who worry that Harry
Potter promotes evil/satanism/occult) that magic in the HP books is in
actuality simply a different kind of technology, with its own rules and
quirks, which needs to be taught to students and mastered.  Here's a
extended snippet from it:

"People today, and this includes many Christians, tend to hold two views
about witches:
first, that real witches dont exist, and second, that they arent as bad as
the evil
masterminds of the Salem witch trials made them out to be. These are
obviously
incompatible beliefs. As C. S. Lewis has pointed out, there is no virtue in
being tolerant of
witches if you think that witchcraft is impossible, that is, that witches
dont really exist. But
if there are such things as witches, and they do indeed invoke supernatural
or unnatural
forces to bring harm to good people, then it would be neither wise nor good
to tolerate
them. So the issue is an important one, and worthy of serious reflection.

It is tempting to say, in response to these concerns, that Harry Potter is
not that kind of
wizard, that he doesnt do harm to anyone, except those who are manifestly
evil and
trying to do harm to him. And these are significant points. But an answer to
our question
must begin elsewhere.

The place to begin is to invoke one of the great achievements of
twentiethcentury
historical scholarship: the eight volumes Lynn Thorndike published between
1929 and
1941 under the collective title A History of Magic and Experimental Science.
And it is
primarily the title that I wish to reflect upon here. In the thinking of
most modern people,
there should be two histories here: after all, are not magic and
experimental science
opposites? Is not magic governed by superstition, ignorance, and wishful
thinking, while
experimental science is rigorous, selfcritical, and methodological? While
it may be true
that the two paths have diverged to the point that they no longer have any
point of
contact, for much of their existenceand this is Lynn Thorndikes chief
pointthey
constituted a single path with a single history. For both magic and
experimental science
are means of controlling and directing our natural environment (and people
insofar as they
are part of that environment). C. S. Lewis has made the same assertion:

                        [Francis Bacons] endeavor is no doubt contrasted in
our minds with that of
                        the magicians: but contrasted only in the light of
the event, only because we
                        know that science succeeded and magic failed. That
event was then still
                        uncertain. Stripping off our knowledge of it, we see
at once that Bacon and
                        the magicians have the closest possible affinity. .
. . Nor would Bacon
                        himself deny the affinity: he thought the aim of the
magicians was "noble."

It was not obvious in advance that science would succeed and magic fail: in
fact, several
centuries of dedicated scientific experiment would have to pass before it
was clear to
anyone that the "scientific" physician could do more to cure illness than
the old woman of
the village with her herbs and potions and muttered charms. In the
Renaissance,
alchemists were divided between those who sought to solve problemsthe
achievement
of the philosophers stone, for example (or should I say the sorcerers
stone?)primarily
through the use of what we would call mixtures of chemicals and those who
relied more
heavily on incantations, the drawing of mystical patterns, and the
invocation of spirits.

At least, it seems to us that the alchemists can be so divided. But thats
because we know
that one approach developed into chemistry, while the other became pure
magic. The
division may not have been nearly so evident at the time, when (to adapt
Webers famous
phrase) the world had not yet become disenchanted. As Keith Thomas has
shown, it was
"the triumph of the mechanical philosophy" of nature that "meant the end of
the animistic
conception of the universe which had constituted the basic rationale for
magical thinking."
Even after powerful work of the mechanistic scientists like Gassendi the
change was not
easily completed: Isaac Newton, whose name is associated more than any other
with
physical mechanics, dabbled frequently in alchemy.

This history provides a key to understanding the role of magic in Joanne
Rowlings books,
for she begins by positing a counterfactual history, a history in which
magic was not a false
and incompetent discipline, but rather a means of controlling the physical
world at least as
potent as experimental science. In Harry Potters world, scientists think of
magic in
precisely the same way they do in our world, but they are wrong. The
counterfactual
"secondary world" that Rowling creates is one in which magic simply works,
and works
as reliably, in the hands of a trained wizard, as the technology that makes
airplanes fly and
refrigerators chill the airthose products of applied science being, by the
way, sufficiently
inscrutable to the people who use them that they might as well be the
products of
wizardry. As Arthur C. Clarke once wrote, "Any smoothly functioning
technology gives
the appearance of magic."

The fundamental moral framework of the Harry Potter books, then, is a
familiar one to all
of us: it is the problem of technology. (As Jacques Ellul wrote, "Magic may
even be the
origin of techniques.") Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is in the
business of
teaching people how to harness and employ certain powersthat they are
powers
unrecognized by science is really beside the pointbut cannot insure that
people will use
those powers wisely, responsibly, and for the common good. It is a choice,
as the thinkers
of the Renaissance would have put it, between magia and goetia: "high magic"
(like the
wisdom possessed by the magi in Christian legend) and "dark magic."

>>>

According to this understanding of the novels, then, the Muggle world and
the wizarding world are marked by two different types of technology (and
perhaps two different understandings of technology), one of which (the
muggle world) is mostly unaware of the other (the wizarding world).  And yet
there must be some occasional overlaps and cross-fertilization.

Peg






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 16 04:11:14 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:11:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teaching, HP and C.S. Lewis (long)
References: <8puq5v+nv31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C2F2E2.BA2FA6E2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1552

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> This is probably why I don't see any of Our Heroes teaching at
> Hogwarts after all is said and done.  Not only would that be
> anticlimatic, it is a research proven fact that most elementary and
> secondary educators had very positive K-12 school experiences.  I am
> a teacher today because the majority of my K-12 teachers were
> *awesome*.  Snape doesn't exactly inspire bright young minds to
> follow in his footsteps.
>

I'm still rooting for Neville to teach Herbology.  I get the impression it's
the one area in his life where he's gotten positive feedback.  I think I
heard in one JR interview somewhere that one person in Harry's class will
end up teaching, and for some reason, I have a gut feeling that it'll be
him.  Of course, this means that something's going to happen to Sprout . . .

> This is what the opposition among Christians re: Harry Potter boils
> down to.  There are some Christians who feel that they are to have
> unquestioning obedience to an earthly authority.  Most of these
> Muggles have not read the books or even know much about them.  What
> has happened is that they received misinformation from their pastor
> or their paranoid friend and jumped to conclusions.  They are not bad
> people--they just believe that their salvation depends on total
> obedience to the line of "Do not allow your little ones to be
> corrupted by this Harry Potter garbage!"

I've just had a conversation with my seven year old daughter, who has been
catching some flack from other kids in her class room, apparently children
of the Some Christians in your paragraph above, and she's puzzled by these
comments.  I've thought about what to say to those Some Christians, but it
was a bit more difficult to think of what to say to my daughter when she is
confused by the comments of these Some Christians.  Any other parents out
there have this experience?  How do you explain to your children the nature
of the argument over the suitability of the Harry Potter books?  I found the
conversation a bit challenging; I felt as if I was simply baffling her
further as I tried to explain.

> I, Ebony, hold that the Bible is the unerring, infallible Word of
> God.  Yet I read Harry Potter enthusiastically.  This may seem like a
> huge contradiction to some, but to me it makes perfect sense. <snip>
> Christians who believe that one should not question authority or God
> must not be reading the same Bible that I've read.

This is my orientation, too, and it's the orientation I want my children to
have, too.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 16 04:28:22 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:28:22 -0500
Subject: Pride
Message-ID: <39C2F6E6.C81A2880@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1553

I ran across a passing reference to the 7 deadly sins today and thought,
hey, if the Harry Potter books are a story about a moral education, what
do they have to say about each of these?

In a way, I already covered pride in my earlier post about ambition,
but, here are some more things to think about.

Harry: Living with the Dursleys, Harry grew up thinking he didn't have
anything to be proud about, until he got the letter from Hogwarts.  He's
developed his Quidditch skills, discovered he has a certain flair for
magic in some of this classes (but not potions!)

Draco offered Harry his first temptation: will Harry reject certain
people who could be friends because they are poor (Ron) or could be
considered odd or oafish (Hagrid) or because they are muggle-born
(Hermione).

Gilderoy Lockhart tempts Harry to succumb to self-conceit, and Harry,
happily, rejects that temptation, too.  I wonder if his experience with
the Dursleys had something to do with this.  After years living with
Dudley, Harry is acutely sensitive to the ridiculousness of people who
have overly inflated opinions about their self-worth.  It's probably a
reason he is also pretty good at resisting the blandishments of Rita
Skeeter in GoF.

I've written in a previous message about how Harry's pride affects his
performance in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.  His pride makes him resist
accepting help (which almost leads to disaster with the second task--he
finally accepts Dobby's help because he has literally run out of time to
try to figure the answer out on his own).  He is ambitious enough to
want to try to win the tournament, which makes him tackle the tasks,
despite the fact that he is aware someone may be trying to kill him.
Pride/ambition (and overcoming it) is a big part of what happens in the
maze at the third task, so that Harry offers to share the cup with
Cedric.

Who strikes me as really proud?  Snape, who seems to need to feel
superior.  Draco and his father.  Voldemort, of course.  Ron, to some
extent, who is touchy about his poverty, and who is too proud to
apologize to Harry for a long time in GoF, leading to their painful
estrangement.

Who strikes me as humble?  Hagrid, Dumbledore, Neville, and oddly
enough, Hermione, who never seems to use her mental superiority to lord
it over others.  By this I mean that yes, she is sometimes accused of
being a know-it-all; she'll correct others when they don't know the
subject.  But she never preens herself because she has the best grades;
she is unfailingly kind to Neville, an often hopeless student, and she
is humble enough to think that she can't coast; she is always trying to
study harder.

Feel free to jump in with other comments, anyone.

Peg




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 16 04:35:43 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:35:43 -0000
Subject: Canal Boats - still OT
In-Reply-To: <02a101c01f94$b333a120$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8putav+g01o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1554

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <drohlede at n...> wrote:
> Rita. Brook, and others,
> 
> Am I right that there used to be an entire class of people  -- 
> watergypsies, who lived on canal in UK like the caravans of 
> gypsies do/did on land?  

According to the article in SMITHSONIAN, there did use to be an 
entire class of people who lived and raised their families on the 
narrowboats. I forget what they were called. They differed from 
gypsies in that they had a central role in the nation's economy, at 
least at first, being the main way of transporting bulk goods (like 
coal to the iron foundries and iron goods away). They made their 
living from the payment for transporting things. As time passed, two 
trends went hand in hand: the boat people became more in-bred, 
socially isolated from the land people, and kept wearing their early 
Victorian styles while everyone else's fashions changed, and the land 
people became more and more scornful of the boat people and said that 
they were thieves and mentally retarded.

This is not totally unrelated to the wizarding world: when I read 
the SMITHSONIAN article, my first reaction was to search for it 
on the Web (sorry, didn't find it) in hope of posting its URL 
on HP e-mail-lists, because the narrowboat revival has the same 
kind of charm that made adults fall in love with the first couple 
of HP books.





From Tallonclaw at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 05:19:22 2000
From: Tallonclaw at aol.com (Tallonclaw at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:19:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Head Boy/ Girl, Lily Slytherin, and Mrs. Figg
Message-ID: <70.3126734.26f45cda@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1555

In a message dated 9/15/00 4:06:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com writes:

<<  3-- a personwho inherits or is entitled to inherit the 
 rank, title, or position of another, >>
 Yes and wasn't it true that women couldn't be the heirs to their 
father/husbands title, land, or the like?



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 16 07:27:14 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:27:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQ status
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916072714.008581bc@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1556

Joywitch wrote:

<<<This is probably an unreasonable request considering that I did not 
volunteer to help write the FAQ, but would it be possible to post a 
list of the 60 FAQs? (Just the questions, I mean.)>>>

***

I'm not sure what the other FAQ-compilers think on this, but all we have at
the moment is category titles, which would not be be of much use to you as
they are fairly broad and obvious, e.g. "Spells and Charms", "Hermione
Granger", "Wizarding World: Government".  

Identifying the questions that will go into each FAQ represents a fair part
of the work involved, since we are being led by questions that have been
asked by members rather than those we think should be answered (if that
makes sense). Most of us are still at that stage in the process, so please
bear with us!

Neil



            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 16 07:58:27 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:58:27 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916075827.008615bc@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1557

"Flying Ford Anglia" wrote:

>>>> I agree that he probably meant Harry's "only living relatives", but 
>>>> his use of the word "family" left a sliver of a glimmer of a 
>>>> possibility that there might be another living relative who is, 
>>>> perhaps, completely mad, totally unsuitable for parenting and
>>>>living in a cave on Easter Island... or who is Mrs Figg.  No?  Okay then.

Catlady replied:

>>Actually, I thought you might be hinting at a blood relative who had 
>>gone over to Voldemort and thus divorced his/her family.

>>As for Mrs. Figg, it is not clear that she is less suitable for 
>>parenting than the Dursleys. 

***
Spoiler space, just in case
p
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I suppose I could have been hinting at that rather intriguing 'divorced
relative' theory, but I wasn't. I was, originally, getting excited about Mrs
Figg possibly being ne Potter, and then trying to imagine how the Dursleys
could be thought to be Harry's only "family" if a Potter-born relative was
living virtually next door to them.  I got onto Easter Island somehow.

There's clearly some reason for Harry being sent to Mrs Figg's house,
especially as she's been revealed as being more than just an old lady in the
'hood with a few cats and limited baking skills. It would be interesting to
know why the Dursleys tend to deposit Harry with Mrs Figg when they need a
child-sitter.  Did Dumbledore suggest they do that in his letter or did he
charm them into doing it?  Did the Dursleys know Mrs Figg before Harry was
left on their doorstep?  Was Mrs Figg even living in Privet Drive before
Harry arrived there?

Neil  


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 11:52:05 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:52:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First in class (was: James: the better wizard?
In-Reply-To: <8punms+iipv@eGroups.com>
References: <8punms+iipv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310102b5e90ec70f2c@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1558

At 2:59 AM +0000 9/16/00, Rita Winston wrote:
>Barbara, I see from your sig that you are a breeder of pedigreed cats
>(long-haired Aby's). Don't Cat Shows choose Best and Best Opposite
>Sex (sometimes abbreviated BOX, which confused the hell out of me)in
>each category?

Not in the association I show in, but it's reasonably similar:

Cats are given awards based in this order:

- within their title, gender, and color (first, second, or third)
- within their color, both genders and all titles (Best of Color)
- within their breed (Best of Breed)

Then, the top 10 cats of all breeds are called for an allbreed final, 
or the top 10 cats of their division (longhaired or shorthaired) are 
called for a longhaired or shorthaired final.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Sat Sep 16 11:54:34 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:54:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Harry's brand of  Magic
In-Reply-To: <8pus8u+g30s@eGroups.com>
References: <8pus8u+g30s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p04310103b5e90fbc48b7@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1559

At 4:17 AM +0000 9/16/00, Rita Winston wrote:
>Book 2. Ron confesses his phobia of spiders and attributes it to (I
>forget which twin) having turned his teddy into a spider 'just
>because I broke his toy broomstick' when Ron was three. If Ron was
>three, the twin was five, and I doubt he was using a wand at five.

Well, certainly not their OWN wand. But would you put it past Fred OR 
George to "borrow" someone else's wand to do it, even at age five? 
Sure, they'd get in a lot of trouble, but that's hardly news.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From elfnorc at voyager.net  Sat Sep 16 14:41:52 2000
From: elfnorc at voyager.net (Elf and Orc)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:41:52 -0400
Subject: New To The List
References: <8punms+iipv@eGroups.com> <p04310102b5e90ec70f2c@[24.24.42.142]>
Message-ID: <39C386B0.242B@voyager.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1560

Greetings;  I have just joined the list and have been enjoying the
discussions but haven't had a chance to post until now.  My name is Tina
and our email address "Elfnor" is actually short for elf and orc.  Long
time LOTR fans live here.  I am 44 and got hooked on Harry this past
summer.  It seemed like every time I was in a book store there would be
kids with their parents discussing the books and my curiousity won out.
I listened to CoS on audio cassette and then read PS and went from
there.  Sigh.  

Tina



From elfnorc at voyager.net  Sat Sep 16 14:47:03 2000
From: elfnorc at voyager.net (Elf and Orc)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:47:03 -0400
Subject: First in class  (Long explanation of dog showing)
References: <8punms+iipv@eGroups.com> <p04310102b5e90ec70f2c@[24.24.42.142]>
Message-ID: <39C387E7.1DEA@voyager.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1561

Greetings;  Could you be thinking about dog shows?  We first judge all
the male and then female non-champions to awards a winners dog and
bitch.  (I hope that was appropriate, I am always hesitanted to use
bitch with non-dog showing people.) Then those two and all the champions
in a breed are judged and awarded Best of Breed (BOB) for the best
overall and then Best of Opposite Sex (BOS) for the best animal of the
other gender.  There is also an award for Best of Winners (BOW) which is
best of either the winners dog or winners bitch.  From there, the breed
winner goes on to compete at the group level and then possibly for best
in show.  

Tina 
The Animal Friend Elf

> At 2:59 AM +0000 9/16/00, Rita Winston wrote:
> >Barbara, I see from your sig that you are a breeder of pedigreed cats
> >(long-haired Aby's). Don't Cat Shows choose Best and Best Opposite
> >Sex (sometimes abbreviated BOX, which confused the hell out of me)in
> >each category?
> 
> Not in the association I show in, but it's reasonably similar:



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sat Sep 16 15:18:04 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:18:04 -0000
Subject: Warwick Davis cast as Flitwick
Message-ID: <8q02vc+dqhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1562

I've just posted a picture of Warwick Davis under:
    Files / Cast Photos / Davis1.jpg

-JamesF




From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep 16 16:15:14 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:15:14 CDT
Subject: Heir v Descendant
Message-ID: <F181chk65xc9HibTmjG00008b17@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1563

Hi:

Someone was inquiring recently about the definition of Heir (that it has 
solely legal connotations in their dictionary).  Sorry I can't remember who 
raised this -- I seem to have deleted the original message.

Anyway, I seem to remember that it was raised originally in the context of 
wondering whether Harry could be descended from both Gryffindor & Slytherin. 
  I think it was Steve who correctly pointed out (in great Hermione fashion) 
that Dumbledore specifically says that Voldemort is the last heir of 
Slytherin in CoS.

I'm not sure if this was specifically addressed by Steve or not, but don't 
forget that Dumbledore doesn't actually use the word "heir."  He uses the 
word "descendant" (actually he uses the word "ancestor" in earliest versions 
of CoS but that's another discussion altogether).  Descendant (forgive me, 
I'm out of town & have no access to any dictionary) means something very 
specific in a genealogical sense.  If Voldemort is the last remaining 
descendant of Slytherin, then there are *no* other Slytherin descendants 
then living. The emphasis on the word "remaining" might be significant (one 
might argue that Lily was a descendent of Slytherin but is no longer living 
but for the fact that Harry, a descendant of Lily, would then be a living 
descendant of Slytherin as well). So . . . that said, I think it's safe to 
say that Voldemort has no children or grandchildren then living.

Now, back to this ancestor v descendant business -- AAGGGH!  I bought a 
paperback version of CoS recently to mark-up, underline -- my "reading 
copy."  I brought it with me out of town to work on the FAQs.  I just 
checked that reference in this paperback version and Scholastic has now 
reverted *back* to using "ancestor" again!!!  What the heck does that mean?

For those of you not familiar with the issue, here's a brief recap:

1.  In the earliest hardback versions of CoS, I noticed that Dumbledore says 
Voldemort is the "last remaining ancestor" of Slytherin.  This leapt off the 
page at me because of my genealogical interests.  How could Voldemort be 
Slytherin's *ancestor* I puzzled.  This was in the UK Deluxe edition that I 
noticed it.  I went back to my original US (Scholastic) version of CoS, 
which was a later printing (22nd or so).  It had been changed to read "last 
remaining descendant."  Relieved that I hadn't missed something so obvious 
on my first read of CoS, I started questioning whether Scholastic changed 
something that should never have been changed.  How could the Bloomsbury 
editors let something so obvious slip past them?  Maybe they raised it with 
JKR and she insisted that they leave it as it was -- "ancestor."

2.  I then acquired a first US printing of CoS and gave away my later 
printing.  It seems that the first printings by Scholastic also had the 
"ancestor" reference.  So, I decided it was something that must have been 
changed by the Scholastic editors at some point when doing later printings. 
I never have determined if the later Bloomsbury editions of CoS ever changed 
it to "descendant."  Does anyone know?

3.  Now I find that the paperback version is back to using "ancestor" 
instead of "descendant." Did they "set" the paperback version from one of 
the earliest hardback versions where that "error" was still in place?  Or, 
did JKR and/or Bloomsbury tell Scholastic to change it back to "ancestor"???

Thoughts?????

A very puzzled Penny (who is really thinking she should write the Scholastic 
editors at this point)


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 16 17:05:48 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:05:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir v Descendant
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000916170548.00839e48@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1564

Penny wrote, re ancestor vs descendant:

>3.  Now I find that the paperback version is back to using "ancestor" 
>instead of "descendant." Did they "set" the paperback version from one of 
>the earliest hardback versions where that "error" was still in place?  Or, 
>did JKR and/or Bloomsbury tell Scholastic to change it back to "ancestor"???

To my mind the reference to ancestor has to have been an error.  The
theories required to explain it otherwise would just be too bizarre (even by
my standards) and, even if there was a plausible reason for saying ancestor,
wouldn't Harry have said to Dumbledore: "Last remaining ANCESTOR?  How can
that be?"  Also, for JKR, it would have been underplaying a rather
mind-blowing revelation.

Now, the reason for the error being repeated may have something to do with
where the books were printed.  I'm sure Nick posted something about
Bloomsbury's "Goblet of Fire" containing errors (missing words) in some
printings  - not editions - because two different printers were used in the
UK.  In the case of CoS, perhaps some US reprintings were done at a printer
that still had a master with the word 'ancestor' and hadn't changed it.
Mind you, it beggars belief that this error hasn't been corrected, since it
has been one of the most discussed puzzles among HP fans and I think it's
highly likely that someone has already told Scholastic and Bloomsbury about it.

My paperback Bloomsbury CoS, 20th printing, by Clays of St Ives, has the
word ancestor.

Neil

            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 10:07:22 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:07:22 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily
References: <8ptnq5+d2lv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE47Hprp5yLZ86BSqEM00000986@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1565

From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com 
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 3:55 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily

cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com wrote:
.. It always rather surprised me that James managed to be Head Boy, given his apparent 
rule-breaking personality. Of course, I know very little about what 
actually goes in to choosing a Head Boy - grades, behavior, 
attendance? Quidditch skills?

A couple of things on this
1.  I noticed today that Percy was 'elected' head boy in CoS. - so pupular electon by the student body may be part of it. However (since I can't see Percy being widley popular). there must be more to it than that.
In Real Life. teachers 'fiddle' the results somewhat so that they get the outcome they want. I do recall my mother telling me she was madea  prefect becuase she was a dilitory and unruly student and this was a con to get her to behave. Dunno that Dumbledore would do this, or that such manipulations would extend to Head Boy-ness. 


storm





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From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep 16 19:02:20 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:02:20 -0500
Subject: Homunculi, Thermodynamics, CS Lewis, gypsies, Canal Boats
References: <969114590.25707@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C3C3BC.201011FC@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1566

  Homunculi are in magically created miniature human-shaped creatures
more or less conjured out of inaminate ingredients, usually depicted as
2 feet tall or less - and are sometimes mis-shapen or misformed and not
fully functional; this belief was possibly inspired by some birth
defects, or cases of severe dwarfism.  They sometimes winding up being
possessed by some wandering spirit/elemental/demon.  

  Thus I suggest that Pettigrew conjured up a homonculus possibly using
some ingredient that had been directly associated with Voldemort in past
(there is the mystery of where Voldy's wand has been all these years for
example?); and this made it a natural host for the previously wandering
spirit/consciousness of Voldy.  It is also possible that Voldy had done
something like the classic magician's trick of removing one's heart from
one's body so one cannot be killed (most recent example probably Mad
Hettie in Sandman), and that Pettigrew retrived it from the hiding place
and used it as an organic component of the homunculus spell.  Or it
might not be the heart, yet the anti-death transformations Voldy
underwent may also have involved removing some part of portion of his flesh.

The magic in Harry Potter APPEARS to contradict the laws of
thermodynamics (which might be one definition of magic!), but perhaps
does not- there is really insufficient data.  JKR has not tried to
explain where the energy that powers certain things comes from.  For
example, the energy of the magic may actually be being drained from some
alternate dimension.  Or there could be magical energy stored at the
string level of the universe....

I really like reading CS Lewis essays - they are great reading for deep
thinking about theological and'real world' issues.

It should be remembered that 'Gypsies' are not just a random set of
people who wander, but a specific ethnic group that oroginated in
Northwest India centuries ago.  Their name for themselves is Roma or
Rom, their language called Romany, and it is often forgotten that they
too were targeted for containment, isolation and extermination by Nazi
Germany.  Probably 100,000 Gypsies at a minimum died in the
concentration camps as well.  In fact my draft story has a Roma wizard.....

One of my friends, to whom I described my idea of canal boats as the
pre-Hogwarts Express transport, with the boat across the lake as a
tradition honoring that old method, liked that very much and thought it
was very clever, so i am going to use it. She also liked my explanation
for the origin of the Hogwarts locomotive, which ties in to Dumbledore's
London Underground scar, so I will definitely keep that in as well.  Now
if I can just find time to write some more, i might actually put those
chapters up for comment....


-Brooks



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 16 20:31:25 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:31:25 -0000
Subject: OT Bible versions and deaths
In-Reply-To: <009601c01f12$a5c075e0$9b8fd6ce@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8q0lat+5hit@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1567

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "lrcjestes" <lrcjestes at m...> wrote:
> If you are wanting somethin that is easy to find, The New 
International
> Version (abbreviated NIV) was translated in the 1970's
> to early 1980's I think from the greek and hebrew texts and is a 
much easier
> read than the King James as it is more modern english.  If you get 
a study
> bible it also has a lot of footnotes for possible alternative 
translations
> and further clarifications of the language.
> 
> carole

Carole--

Thanks for the reply.  Yes, easy to read would be helpful. :o]  I'll 
check that one out.  Ebony mentioned that she likes it as well.  I'm 
also interested in the one Barbara posted.  I'm looking for a bible 
that is the most accurately translated from the original.  I'll start 
checking out different sources and see what I can find.  Thanks for 
the info.

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 16 21:01:10 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:01:10 -0000
Subject: Heir v Descendant
In-Reply-To: <F181chk65xc9HibTmjG00008b17@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8q0n2m+s31f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1568

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Penny Linsenmayer" <linsenma at h...> 
wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> Someone was inquiring recently about the definition of Heir (that 
it has 
> solely legal connotations in their dictionary).  Sorry I can't 
remember who 
> raised this -- I seem to have deleted the original message.
> 
> Anyway, I seem to remember that it was raised originally in the 
context of 
> wondering whether Harry could be descended from both Gryffindor & 
Slytherin. 
>   I think it was Steve who correctly pointed out (in great Hermione 
fashion) 
> that Dumbledore specifically says that Voldemort is the last heir 
of 
> Slytherin in CoS.
> 
> I'm not sure if this was specifically addressed by Steve or not, 
but don't 
> forget that Dumbledore doesn't actually use the word "heir."  He 
uses the 
> word "descendant" (actually he uses the word "ancestor" in earliest 
versions 
> of CoS but that's another discussion altogether).  Descendant 
(forgive me, 
> I'm out of town & have no access to any dictionary) means something 
very 
> specific in a genealogical sense.  If Voldemort is the last 
remaining 
> descendant of Slytherin, then there are *no* other Slytherin 
descendants 
> then living. The emphasis on the word "remaining" might be 
significant (one 
> might argue that Lily was a descendent of Slytherin but is no 
longer living 
> but for the fact that Harry, a descendant of Lily, would then be a 
living 
> descendant of Slytherin as well). So . . . that said, I think it's 
safe to 
> say that Voldemort has no children or grandchildren then living.
> A very puzzled Penny (who is really thinking she should write the 
Scholastic 
> editors at this point)

Hi Penny, that was me.  You're right, Dumble does say Vold is the 
last.  Dang, I really thought I found something there.  My copy of 
CoS says 'ancestor' BTW.  I guess I was thinking of the whole "Heir 
of Slytherin" thing, that maybe Vold is just the one to take up 
Slyth's cause, to be the new S. Slyth., in a symbolic sort of way.  
So, do you think the physical resemblances between Harry, James, and 
TRJ are just red herrings? 
Isn't there somewhere in one of the books that Dumble is wrong about 
something?  Something small maybe, but a point where he says 
something about 'well, I've been wrong before,' or something to that 
effect.  What am I thinking of?  This is really bugging me...

Kelley 





From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep 16 21:11:46 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:11:46 +0200
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
References: <8q0n2m+s31f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c02022$d1867240$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1569

> Isn't there somewhere in one of the books that Dumble is wrong about
> something?  Something small maybe, but a point where he says
> something about 'well, I've been wrong before,' or something to that
> effect.  What am I thinking of?  This is really bugging me...

Yes...in CoS, after they've brought back Ginny, he tells Harry and Ron that
he took back what he said earlier about being forced to expel them if they
flaunted the rules the way they did when they flew the car into the Willow
at the beginning of the year. Or something like that. Sorry, don't have the
books with me at the moment.

~Firebolt




From open2uandu at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 21:13:51 2000
From: open2uandu at aol.com (open2uandu at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:13:51 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's cleverness
Message-ID: <af.a65b62.26f53c8f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1570

In a message dated 9/14/00 10:58:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
find_sam at hotmail.com writes:

<< Cassandra Vablatsky, Cassandra being a soothsayer of classical 
 mythology.  >>

And, of course, Madam Blavatsky who was a famous psychic!

Nan



From open2uandu at aol.com  Sat Sep 16 21:34:28 2000
From: open2uandu at aol.com (open2uandu at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:34:28 EDT
Subject: Gotta unsubscribe :(
Message-ID: <d9.9b24e3a.26f54164@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1571

I have realized, after reading tons of email from this wonderful group, that 
I really don't care to speculate much on the future of the Harry Potter 
books!  I'm just going to read them and see what happens and enjoy them 
without picking them apart.  :)

This is not an attack on the group, by the way!

Thank you for having me.

Nan



From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep 16 22:22:43 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:22:43 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT Bible versions
In-Reply-To: <8q0lat+5hit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCECBCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1572

If you go to http://bible.gospelcom.net/ you can compare nine different
versions of the bible, plus read the bible in ten different languages
(including Tagalog!).

It's called The Bible Gateway



======================================================
"I will not be put off by the Hero's rebuffs of my
sensual advances. If he doesn't succumb to me, I will
not fly into a jealous rage. Instead, I'll shrug my
shoulders, send him on his way, and have him picked
off as he exits the fortress."
---Guidelines For Evil Empresses (#8)
======================================================






From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 16 23:00:53 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:00:53 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
In-Reply-To: <002501c02022$d1867240$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8q0u35+7fl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1573

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> Yes...in CoS, after they've brought back Ginny, he tells Harry and 
Ron that
> he took back what he said earlier about being forced to expel them 
if they
> flaunted the rules the way they did when they flew the car into the 
Willow
> at the beginning of the year. Or something like that. Sorry, don't 
have the
> books with me at the moment.
> 
> ~Firebolt

That must've been it.  I guess that's not really the same as being 
wrong about something.  I can't really think of anything else Dumble 
has said that's been incorrect or even partly incorrect.  So, when 
Dumble says Vold ~is~ the last remaining *ancestor* of Salazar 
Slytherin, is that it?  That's all there is to it?  It would 
certainly make sense that the last descendant of Slyth would have to 
battle the last descendant of Gryff, but I can't shake the feeling 
there's more to it than that.  Anyway, thanks for helping me out with 
that.

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 16 23:04:25 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:04:25 -0000
Subject: OT Bible versions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCECBCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8q0u9p+28ea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1574

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> If you go to http://bible.gospelcom.net/ you can compare nine 
different
> versions of the bible, plus read the bible in ten different 
languages
> (including Tagalog!).
> 
> It's called The Bible Gateway

Sister M.L.--

Thanks for the link.  Sounds interesting, I'll make sure to go there.

Kelley




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 23:29:00 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:29:00 -0000
Subject: James/Head Boy
Message-ID: <8q0vns+8rt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1575

Hi all-- it's Alicia/Sue again, who's finally found time away from 
her horrendous academic and extracurricular workload to get back 
online.

I can only intelligently comment on one thing-- the James/Head Boy 
thing.  

Although some have disputed the logic of James being both Head Boy 
and a troublemaker, I find it fairly plausible, based on my own 
experiences.  Sorry for using myself as an example *yet again*, but 
it does sometimes work out that the top student is one of the top 
troublemakers.  

You know how kids that were generally "bad" in elementary school 
faded into the background as they grew older and matured?  I'm the 
exact opposite-- every year, as I mature and gather more knowledge, I 
find more ways to cause mischief with my friends-- and we're 
relatively well-known for it.  I think that perhaps the same happened 
with James-- he was probably somewhat serious and straitlaced before 
falling in with the Marauders, but his grades throughout were high 
enough to guarantee him the spot as Head Boy.

*
--Alicia/Sue "Piccolo Percy" Spinnet, who has surprisingly enough 
only recieved one detention in her life for mischief

"The First Commandment: Thou shalt not get caught."

Last Movie Seen: "Bring It On"
Discman's Spinning: "Sgt. Pepper", The Beatles
Current Book: "The Long Walk", Stephen King
*





From warmsley at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 16 23:47:56 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:47:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James/Head Boy
Message-ID: <01c02038$89c943e0$da4b073e@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1576

>I can only intelligently comment on one thing-- the James/Head
Boy
>thing.


I myself go to a public school in Britain and the Head Boy thign
isn't really to do with best grades, although whoever is made it
does tend to have very good grades. He (its all-boys, sadly)
tends to be fairly popular but will do whatever the teachers
tell him to.

But in fact, thinking about it, the head boy really does very
little of any importance - just tell sus to stand up and sit
down at assembly and organises the prefects.

Here, if we had someone like James, he probably wouldn't be a
head boy... but then our headmaster is a lot less cool than
Dumbledore :)

Jeremy




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Sep 17 00:14:14 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:14:14 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
In-Reply-To: <8q0u35+7fl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q12cm+orsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1577

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> > Yes...in CoS, after they've brought back Ginny, he tells Harry 
and 
> Ron that
> > he took back what he said earlier about being forced to expel 
them 
> if they
> > flaunted the rules the way they did when they flew the car into 
the 
> Willow
> > at the beginning of the year. Or something like that. Sorry, 
don't 
> have the
> > books with me at the moment.
> > 
> > ~Firebolt
> 
> That must've been it.  I guess that's not really the same as being 
> wrong about something.  I can't really think of anything else 
Dumble 
> has said that's been incorrect or even partly incorrect.  So, when 
> Dumble says Vold ~is~ the last remaining *ancestor* of Salazar 
> Slytherin, is that it?  That's all there is to it?  It would 
> certainly make sense that the last descendant of Slyth would have 
to 
> battle the last descendant of Gryff, but I can't shake the feeling 
> there's more to it than that.  Anyway, thanks for helping me out 
with 
> that.
> 
> Kelley

Dumbledore was wrong about "Moody" in Book 4. Crouch Jr. was able to 
fool Dumbledore the ENTIRE school year.






From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Sep 17 00:21:58 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:21:58 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8q12r6+263b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1578

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> What I find interesting are the contradictions that exist in JKR's 
wizard
> world/muggle world interfaces.  For instance, why should Hogwarts, 
built
> over a thousand years ago, have a thoroughly modern, even luxurious
> (prefects' bathroom) plumbing system, and yet have no electricity?  

Actually, as a professional in the energy field I have to blather a 
bit in response to the above (please forgive me). It makes sense to 
me that Hogwarts would have plumbing but not electricity.  Plumbing 
is actually a very ancient invention; the Romans had basic plumbing 
over 2000 years ago.  Pipes, aqueducts, most drainage systems, and 
even relatively modern inventions such as showers and toilets are all 
mechanical devices and require only a source of water and place to 
dump sewage (hopefully not the same place).  It is completely 
feasible that Hogwarts could run its own plumbing system with no 
connection to the muggle world.  They would need a few plumbers to 
install things, but there may well be wizard or witch plumbers (or 
maybe they use muggle plumbers and give them a memory charm 
afterwards).  Electricity (at least until the last 25 or so years 
since the invention of small renewable systems) requires large power 
plants, and transmission and distribution grids; and therefore would 
require constant interaction with the local electric company.  

What we usually call modern civilization is characterized by the 
replacement of human and animal labor by modern forms of energy 
consumption such as electricity and fossil fuel combustion.  We pay a 
very, very large price for our energy-intensive life style -- we 
cause tremendous amounts of destruction to the air, water, land, 
plants and animals and may well be destroying the ability of many 
species (including our own) to live on this planet.  It is clear from 
reading the Harry Potter books that one of the great advantages of 
magic is that it is an energy source.  A wizard or witch can use 
magic to create light, heat and motion, which we muggles mostly 
create using non-renewable resources such as fossil and wood fuels.  
Hence, we have yet another advantage of the wizarding world -- it is 
much more environmentally sustainable than the muggle world.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 01:18:59 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:18:59 -0000
Subject: James, Head Boy/Girl, and Prefects
Message-ID: <8q1663+dv1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1579

Ok, I was thinking about the Prefect situation and was wondering what 
it would be compatible to in the US, Student Government Association 
perhaps?  In my school the SGA is based on the class voting and a lot 
of posters that are smathered around the school, but in all reality 
it does boil down to a popularity contest. 

The things that I would guess would be different w/ the Hogwarts 
system would be that there would probably some grade requirements 
and, like the teachers might have to approve them...The biggest hole 
in this is that they would have elections at the end of the school 
year for positions in the upcoming one.  Though there were no 
elections at the end of GoF that could have easily of been because of 
Voldemort coming back and the Death of Cedric.

We know that Percy was a Prefect and then Head Boy but everyone seems 
to come to the conclusion that he wasn't very popular, are there 
specific examples of his unpopularity, otherwise how do we know?  
Hermione may or may not be considered popular so will she be a 
prefect or not? My guess yes... and another question, how many 
prefects are there??? 

Last of all James.  My guess is that James was the perfect student, 
friend and Quidditch player.  After all the most popular at my school 
aren't the best at following rules.  Everyone loved him and without 
the whole trick on Snape thing this would be enough to make Snape 
jealous of James.  

Scott

  




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 01:23:32 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:23:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James, Head Boy/Girl, and Prefects
References: <8q1663+dv1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c02045$f2911300$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1580

This is something I have wondered.  In my high school/jr. high, we had Hall Monitors.  Is this along the lines of the duties of the prefects, or is there more to it than that?  (Same role as that of the Resident Advisor in college?)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 9:18 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] James, Head Boy/Girl, and Prefects



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Ok, I was thinking about the Prefect situation and was wondering what 
  it would be compatible to in the US, Student Government Association 
  perhaps?  In my school the SGA is based on the class voting and a lot 
  of posters that are smathered around the school, but in all reality 
  it does boil down to a popularity contest. 

  The things that I would guess would be different w/ the Hogwarts 
  system would be that there would probably some grade requirements 
  and, like the teachers might have to approve them...The biggest hole 
  in this is that they would have elections at the end of the school 
  year for positions in the upcoming one.  Though there were no 
  elections at the end of GoF that could have easily of been because of 
  Voldemort coming back and the Death of Cedric.

  We know that Percy was a Prefect and then Head Boy but everyone seems 
  to come to the conclusion that he wasn't very popular, are there 
  specific examples of his unpopularity, otherwise how do we know?  
  Hermione may or may not be considered popular so will she be a 
  prefect or not? My guess yes... and another question, how many 
  prefects are there??? 

  Last of all James.  My guess is that James was the perfect student, 
  friend and Quidditch player.  After all the most popular at my school 
  aren't the best at following rules.  Everyone loved him and without 
  the whole trick on Snape thing this would be enough to make Snape 
  jealous of James.  

  Scott

    


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 12:00:01 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:00:01 +1000
Subject: Trivia about Wagga Wagga
Message-ID: <OE43wY6YHkidcDjoYAP000009c8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1581

The place of Gilroy Lockhart's Werewolf -

It is a town in NSW (that is not very exciting) and means in the local
indigenous people's languge 'place of many crows' (I think) The repatition
indicates the multilicity.

storm




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 10:50:20 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:50:20 +1000
Subject: Mortal Peril and a few other things
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <p04310100b5e850f50220@[24.24.42.142]>
Message-ID: <OE17z5b6KZmcK8r6beU000007f7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1582

> Do you remember that clock that JKR made pains in GoF to tell us 
> about, the one which has a hand for each weasley and a space around 
> the face for "mortal peril?"  It seems to me that she wouldn't have 
> invented the clock and specifically told us about the "mortal 
peril" 
> bit unless one of the Weasleys was going to be there shortly.
> 
> Vicki

when i read that in GOF i had a vision of a scene in a future book 
that goes something like this...

(Harry is at the Weasley's)
Harry wondered where Ron could be. 'Where's Ron?' he asked Mrs 
Weasley.
'I don't know,' said Mrs Weasley. 'Look at our clock.'
Harry looked at the clock and was alarmed to see Ron's hand pointing 
to 'mortal peril'.

I was wondering about this in relation to the Quidditch World Cup. You remember bow distressed molly was? But it shouldhave been clear to her that her family were in fact ok (or at least no in mortal Peril). At first I wondered why she didn't just apperate in to see them but then I thought, maybe wizards are some kind of protcol to make sure that this does happen (same logic as not allowing ppl to rubberneck at accidents - just makes this harder). then I thought why didn't Mr W go home and at least let her know they were ok. Bill, Charlie and Percy could have stayed and made sure Harry, Ron et were ok.

I was reading PS yesterday and thinking about Dumbldore's watch - showing the 12 hands with the planets, moving around - wondering if his watch showed the position of 12 ppl - if so which ones? Or maybe it is completely different to the Wesley's clock - that wizards took the watch/clock idea from Muggles and have completly adapeted in in a number of different and unrealted way

Always more questions ...

> the Dursleys, who live in a middle class suburban area, send their
> nephew to school in broken glasses and clothes that dont fit.  All
> the kids in Harrys primary school were so afraid of Dursley that
> they wouldnt even talk to Harry.  Is it likely that this would go
> unnoticed for so many years by all the teachers and administrators 
> in a typical middle class school?  Probably not.  

I say, probably yes. I am prejudiced on the subject because I went to 
a (public) primary school in a very properous, upper-middle-class, 
white suburb, where all the other children hated me and beat up on 
me, and the teachers couldn't think of anything to do about it/me 
except to give me various mild punishments (such as standing in the 
corner) for my offenses such as daydreaming during class and reading 
when I was supposed to be playing with the other kids during recess. 

> Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about anywhere 
> these days, could get away with treating students as bad as Snape 
> does.  

See above.
sadly 'me too'

Barb wrote:  Having contact with things doesn't necessarily mean that you 
understand them, understand their context in the world, or know how 
to use them. Having worked computer technical support, I can 
certainly state under no uncertain terms that this happens to 
Muggles, too.

hear hear!
storm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 17 02:52:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:52:24 -0500
Subject: Hello, and a question
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <p04310100b5e850f50220@[24.24.42.142]> <OE17z5b6KZmcK8r6beU000007f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39C431E8.4DB2C23D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1583

Greeting to the list. I'm new, and I've been group-hopping trying to find the level of discussion I'd like, and you seem to be it. I hope I can contribute items of interest, too.

A question---in all the groups I've observed, nobody's talking about Snape. Can I get your thoughts on him? He seems to be such a complex character---any theories (I've got a few) on *why* he stays with the good guys? Why Dumbledore trusts him?

Just wondering if you were pondering what I was pondering,

Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 03:09:30 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:09:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mortal Peril and a few other things
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEALCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <p04310100b5e850f50220@[24.24.42.142]> <OE17z5b6KZmcK8r6beU000007f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <011101c02054$b5559380$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1584

I was the geeky little kid who got beat up by the middle school kids on the way to school.  My parents couldn't understand why I kept breaking my glasses--it really wasn't me!  The other kids did it.  All through school, until I reached Edison (Jr. High), I was picked on horridly.  I was always an outsider--didn't fit in real well with any of the cliques.  I wasn't a true Geek (wasn't in AV, lol, anyone reading Foxtrot?), nor was I preppie or Jock.  I was an outsider completely.  My books and I were good friends.  The teachers couldn't complain about grades, except in Ohio history--got my first D in there!  (A's, one or two B's--no one would play with me, so I studied).  I hated the Snape in there!  He's principal of that school now.....ooooooh!  Mr. Jones.  Educators like him are evil!  Mom came in to butt heads with him.  She came in alot, usually about kids beating me up on the bus, or getting phone calls from the bus drivers about me (too noisy, but hey, it hurts to be beat up, so you make noise!), and the Vp's would call her in for a "conference" about the situation. She ended up with those at least once to six times a year.  It finally stopped in Edison Gym class when I had had enough, and some girl (Tonya, but she changed her name to her middle name, or vice versa in HS) made a comment to me and I slugged her!  Ms. Peoples had to call in mom, of course, and give me detention, but she told me, who later told me, that she really didn't want to have to punish me.  She was glad to see I standing up for myself at last!  That was the last time anyone physical touched me in school.  I also enjoyed that detention--since I never had homework, I used the time to write a story (no novels allowed, sighs), my first.  I was twelve.  A fanfic, actually!  Grins.  It figures.  School just couldn't get the kids to stop--no matter what they did, and it kept happening, so they began to ignore it.  I wonder if that's why Draco's behavior is allowed?  That and the fact of the $$/position of his father?

Just thinking, and sharing.

Dee





> the Dursleys, who live in a middle class suburban area, send their
> nephew to school in broken glasses and clothes that dont fit.  All
> the kids in Harrys primary school were so afraid of Dursley that
> they wouldnt even talk to Harry.  Is it likely that this would go
> unnoticed for so many years by all the teachers and administrators 
> in a typical middle class school?  Probably not.  

I say, probably yes. I am prejudiced on the subject because I went to 
a (public) primary school in a very properous, upper-middle-class, 
white suburb, where all the other children hated me and beat up on 
me, and the teachers couldn't think of anything to do about it/me 
except to give me various mild punishments (such as standing in the 
corner) for my offenses such as daydreaming during class and reading 
when I was supposed to be playing with the other kids during recess. 

> Of course it is not likely that a teacher, just about anywhere 
> these days, could get away with treating students as bad as Snape 
> does.  

See above.
sadly 'me too'

Barb wrote:  Having contact with things doesn't necessarily mean that you 
understand them, understand their context in the world, or know how 
to use them. Having worked computer technical support, I can 
certainly state under no uncertain terms that this happens to 
Muggles, too.

hear hear!
storm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Sep 17 03:16:01 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:16:01 -0000
Subject: Hello, and a question
In-Reply-To: <39C431E8.4DB2C23D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8q1d1h+o1oi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1585

Welcome, Amanda -- There have been a number of discussion threads 
about Snape -- just use the search feature to find them.  Also take a 
look at the archived messages from the Yahoo incarnation of this 
group.  We moved from Yahoo to e-groups last month.

There's also a poll about Snape that's only been going a couple of 
days.  You can vote for one of the answers already given, or you can 
start your own poll.  

IMHO, the only truth about Snape lies in JKR's brain.  He could go 
any direction that she wants him to (while remaining true to the HP 
universe). Other possibilities (other universes?) can be found in fan 
fiction -- there's a good fanfic site under "Links."

Again, welcome,
-Jim Flanagan


> A question---in all the groups I've observed, nobody's talking 
about Snape. Can I get your thoughts on him? He seems to be such a 
complex character---any theories (I've got a few) on *why* he stays 
with the good guys? Why Dumbledore trusts him?
> 
> Just wondering if you were pondering what I was pondering,
> 
> Amanda




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 17 03:50:54 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:50:54 -0000
Subject: Geekishness-- OT (was Mortal Peril and a few other things)
In-Reply-To: <011101c02054$b5559380$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8q1f2u+bgvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1586

Aloha--

Dee, I completely relate.  All through middle school, I was the 
chubby braniac who always had a smartass remark to make.  Of course, 
the giggling members of the social hierachy didn't take well to that, 
so I was ostracized something terrible!  I had no allies in my grade, 
all of my friends being a year older and therefore separated from 
me.  

However, it all changed once I hit 8th grade and the high school.  
Well, the "the skanky popular people avoid me like white pants after 
Labor Day and shirts with more than a square inch of material in 
them" scenario hasn't changed much *lol*, but I managed to "play the 
game" and get myself into the Varsity Club for field hockey.  Of 
course, all social strides I've made are canceled out by my supreme 
band geekishness.  :)  

Being the only sophomore girl in a close-knit group of junior boys 
also raises eyebrows...

And yes, I read Foxtrot... "A!  B!  A!  A!  B!"  *lol*  The sad thing 
is, I'm the only girl on the squad, earning me the nickname "AV 
Chick".

Some strains of geekishness never change.  :)

*
--Alicia/Sue "Piccolo Percy" Spinnet

"People like you are the reason people like me vomit."

Last Movie Seen: "Bring It On"
Discman's Spinning: "Big Ones", Aerosmith
Current Book: "The Long Walk", Stephen King
*       







From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 17 04:05:07 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:05:07 EDT
Subject: anti Harry Potter
Message-ID: <ad.a6aaa2.26f59cf3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1587

Of course there are contradictory elements in the Bible, and it has long been
known by scholars that there was a mistranslation in the Bible (not witches, 
poisoners). 

I also deeply respect any other person's spiritual beliefs, although I may 
not agree with them, and many Christians find inspiration in the 
Bible....there are always inconsistences in any holy book.......

I think that a lot of Christian people who oppose Harry Potter believe that 
witchcraft is a tool of Satan, who is purposely and deliberately working evil 
in the world. Satan, they believe, is manipulative and creates things that 
are attractive and seductive to entrap people. They see Harry Potter as such 
a trap.

I don't believe in Satan, but I do believe in evil. There are people who are 
deliberately hurt, and torture others, and they are evil.

Many Christians notice that Harry Potter is not evil, but rather is the 
antithesis of evil, and find that the lessons of love, friendship, loyalty, 
fighting against injustice are God's fight and therefore moral, and therefore 
appropriate for children.

Here's where things get tricky.

Harry Potter's world is neither Christian or pagan.

I'm a pagan, and a witch. A real one. I don't work evil, I don't hurt people, 
I don't torture or maim or sacrifice, and I don't work evil magic.

There are pagan groups throughout the world. We are peaceful, and love nature.
(http://www.witchvox.com for those interested). We do not worship Satan. We 
don't recognize Satan as being real. We are not evil.

Unfortunately, there are some Christians who think pagans are also evil. They 
think Harry Potter is a pagan -- he's not.

Hogwarts celebrates Christmas as a secular holiday as do many in the world (I 
do).
The origins of Christmas/Yule were of course pagan as are all the Christian 
holidays. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate any holidays for this reason, 
except the  death of Christ on good Friday. (problem is that the dying and 
resurrecting 
god is very pagan, also).

Hogwarts also celebrates Halloween as a secular holiday. It's not the pagan 
holiday of Samhain/Hallowmas, but rather the holiday that is about tricks or 
treats, etc.

Hope to hear some reactions from this post.

Susan



From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 17 04:06:30 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:06:30 EDT
Subject: Dursley behavior towards Harry and kids getting beat up at school
Message-ID: <d0.b25a461.26f59d46@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1588

Oh, my....

I don't remember who said that the behavior of the Dursleys towards Harry was 
improbable or that what happened to Harry would be ignored at a middle class 
school.

The Dursleys are classic child abusers. It is the hardest part for me to read 
because their abuse of Harry is so realistic. Locking him in the cupboard, 
not giving him food,  constant belittlement, scapegoating (treating Dudley so 
much better),   pictures of Dudley but none of Harry, making him do all the 
work, making him wear hand me down clothes, etc....

It's all so realistic it's very disgusting to me. I assume that Rowlings 
either was herself abused as a kid, or knows someone very well who was abused.

In addition, I'm afraid children are beat up, called names, and hurt every 
day in middle class, and upper class schools. 

Susan McGee
formerly executive director of the Child Abuse and Neglect Council in 
Jackson, MI
now director of the Domestic Violence Project in Ann Arbor, Michigan 
(http://comnet.org/dvp)




From sislab2 at rad.net.id  Sun Sep 17 04:29:39 2000
From: sislab2 at rad.net.id (Debba Robinson)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:29:39 +0700
Subject: Abusive behavior
In-Reply-To: <d0.b25a461.26f59d46@aol.com>
Message-ID: <v04011705b5e9f648cc9d@[202.154.60.117]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1589

Susan, (as well as everyone else)

First of all, I need to say hello to everyone - I just joined the group
last night and though I don't know that I'll have time to write often, I
felt compelled to say something after reading Susan's letter.

I can't agree with you more!  I am a former foster mother and the children
I had were kept in their home WAY too long!  Although I was unable to keep
'my' two girls after 3 months (I became too ill to care for them properly)
I have stayed in contact with them over the years (they've never been
returned to their birth parents) and now, as chance would have it, have
full custody of one of them - though not through foster care.  ANYWAY, what
brings me to write is that, as an elementary school teacher, I have seen
abuse that goes well beyond anything the Dursleys did to Harry - so I find
it absurd to think that anyone really believes that things like that don't
go on.

If anyone wants to read some books that present some VERY vivid
descriptions of some unbelievable forms of abuse, here are a few titles:

No Language But a Cry
A Child Called 'IT'
Little Lost Boy

The last two were written by the abused child - after he struggled to cope
in a world that failed to see his pain for an incredibly long long time -
and then how he got shuttled through the system.  I certainly began to have
a much clearer understanding of the things 'my' child has said and done
over the years.  She's 17 now but still holds out hope that her real
parents will love her and do the right thing.

With each description of Harry's living situation I cried out for someone
to save him.  The Dursleys ARE classic, unfortunately.  And I have to agree
with your assessment of how JKR is able to write so vividly about this
problem.

Debba Robinson



>I don't remember who said that the behavior of the Dursleys towards Harry was
>improbable or that what happened to Harry would be ignored at a middle class
>school.
>
>The Dursleys are classic child abusers. It is the hardest part for me to read
>because their abuse of Harry is so realistic. Locking him in the cupboard,
>not giving him food,  constant belittlement, scapegoating (treating Dudley so
>much better),   pictures of Dudley but none of Harry, making him do all the
>work, making him wear hand me down clothes, etc....
>
>It's all so realistic it's very disgusting to me. I assume that Rowlings
>either was herself abused as a kid, or knows someone very well who was abused.
>
>In addition, I'm afraid children are beat up, called names, and hurt every
>day in middle class, and upper class schools.
>
>Susan McGee
>formerly executive director of the Child Abuse and Neglect Council in
>Jackson, MI
>now director of the Domestic Violence Project in Ann Arbor, Michigan
>(http://comnet.org/dvp)
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 17 04:47:29 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:47:29 -0000
Subject: anti Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <ad.a6aaa2.26f59cf3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8q1id1+o4n2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1590

Susan,
	Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I would just like to comment 
that some of the people who are trying to ban the Potter books 
because they're uptight about magic keep trying to ban science also. 
 
Truth to tell, in our local schools here in rural California  its a
lot easier to discuss Potter than evolution. 
Pippin (aka foxmoth) 





From linsenma at hic.net  Sat Sep 16 13:45:20 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:45:20 CDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAQ status
Message-ID: <F176eLeLKtNPmnPSsYF000066e9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1591

Hi:

Joywitch wrote:

<<<This is probably an unreasonable request considering that I did not
volunteer to help write the FAQ, but would it be possible to post a
list of the 60 FAQs? (Just the questions, I mean.)>>>

***

Neil wrote:

<<<I'm not sure what the other FAQ-compilers think on this, but all we have 
at the moment is category titles, which would not be be of much use to you 
as they are fairly broad and obvious, e.g. "Spells and Charms", "Hermione 
Granger", "Wizarding World: Government".>>>

Neil is right -- I could post the list of the categories we're writing at 
the moment.  But, I'm anxious to avoid the "Why don't you write a FAQ on 
______ or _______?" type questions.  I'm afraid our FAQs Committee might 
just mutiny if everyone started suggesting other topics for FAQs.  We're all 
in the thick of writing them at the moment, and it might be better to wait 
and let the general members comment once we've completed the rather daunting 
task of getting these 60-some odd FAQs written.

We hope to post at least the majority of them for general viewing sometime 
in early to mid-October.  Our goal is for everyone to have written the bulk 
of their FAQs by the end of this month if possible, but I expect it will 
take Melanie awhile to get them all converted to HTML and get the formatting 
of the webpages organized, etc.  As Neil said, bear with us.  In any case, 
there's nothing to refer the newbies to at the moment as all the FAQs are 
just drafts on 7 different individual computers at the moment.  <g>

Penny




>From: Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] FAQ status
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:27:14 +0100
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 17 12:56:11 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 07:56:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A writer's power of imagination (was: Abusive  behavior)
References: <v04011705b5e9f648cc9d@[202.154.60.117]>
Message-ID: <39C4BF6B.E91BAE27@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1592



Debba Robinson wrote:

"And I have to agree with your assessment of how JKR is able to write so vividly
about this problem."

> Debba Robinson
>

responding to Susan McGee, who wrote:

"It's all so realistic it's very disgusting to me. I assume that Rowlings
either was herself abused as a kid, or knows someone very well who was abused."
>>>

This is something I feel rather strongly about.  Please, please, please.  It may
very well be possible, but don't make that assumption.  You are denying a fiction
writer's power of imagination when you do that.

This is a common problem for fiction writers who write about painful subjects,
particularly, say, incest or child abuse.  How can you write about something if you
haven't experienced it, or if you haven't known/loved someone who has experienced
it?  You do it by doing your research carefully, and by using your imagination.
And then you have to correct everyone who says, "I assume you've gone through this
yourself." As Nicola Griffith said in the author's afterward of _Slow River_, who
wrote a gripping book about incest: "I'm a fiction writer; I made it up."

My last book was about AIDS.  I do not have AIDS, no one in my family has ever had
AIDS, I do not have any friends with AIDS or even any acquaintences, to my
knowledge.  And yet I run into this assumption all the time.  "You can't have
written about this so well if you hadn't experienced this personally."

I assure you, that a good writer can.

Peg





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 17 16:20:53 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:20:53 -0000
Subject: Harry--the Heir of Gryffindor?
Message-ID: <8q2r15+ra2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1593

I like the idea that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor and that this is 
why Voldemort tried to kill him.  This has yet to be established by 
JKR, of course, and I don't think the theory is totally complete: 
obviously there is a lot more to the story.  But if Harry is 
descended from Gryffindor through James, and Voldemort was trying to 
kill both Harry and James because they were heirs of Gryffindor, this 
might explain what happened to Harry's paternal grandparents. One or 
both of James's parents had to be an heir of Gryffindor too, so maybe 
Voldemort finished them off before going after James, and this is 
what gave James the warning that Voldy was after him and caused the 
Potters to try to go into hiding.




From sislab2 at rad.net.id  Sun Sep 17 17:00:26 2000
From: sislab2 at rad.net.id (Debba Robinson)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:00:26 +0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A writer's power of imagination (was: Abusive behavior)
In-Reply-To: <39C4BF6B.E91BAE27@ibm.net>
References: <v04011705b5e9f648cc9d@[202.154.60.117]>
Message-ID: <v04011700b5eaa87bbc73@[202.154.60.104]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1594

Peg - I agree with you, as well.  But, since I know that she is a teacher I
guess I felt I could make a few assumptions.  In the 25+ years I've been in
the education field I have seen far more than I ever dreamed possible.
But, YES - and a BIG, POWERFUL YES - good writers can certainly do their
homework and produce a very realistic portrayal of just about anything.

Thank you for adding in the information that I omitted.

Debba


>Debba Robinson wrote:
>
>"And I have to agree with your assessment of how JKR is able to write so
>vividly
>about this problem."
>
>> Debba Robinson
>>
>
>responding to Susan McGee, who wrote:
>
>"It's all so realistic it's very disgusting to me. I assume that Rowlings
>either was herself abused as a kid, or knows someone very well who was
>abused."
>>>>
>
>This is something I feel rather strongly about.  Please, please, please.
>It may
>very well be possible, but don't make that assumption.  You are denying a
>fiction
>writer's power of imagination when you do that.
>
>This is a common problem for fiction writers who write about painful subjects,
>particularly, say, incest or child abuse.  How can you write about
>something if you
>haven't experienced it, or if you haven't known/loved someone who has
>experienced
>it?  You do it by doing your research carefully, and by using your
>imagination.
>And then you have to correct everyone who says, "I assume you've gone
>through this
>yourself." As Nicola Griffith said in the author's afterward of _Slow
>River_, who
>wrote a gripping book about incest: "I'm a fiction writer; I made it up."
>
>My last book was about AIDS.  I do not have AIDS, no one in my family has
>ever had
>AIDS, I do not have any friends with AIDS or even any acquaintences, to my
>knowledge.  And yet I run into this assumption all the time.  "You can't have
>written about this so well if you hadn't experienced this personally."
>
>I assure you, that a good writer can.
>
>Peg
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Sep 17 17:08:14 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:08:14 -0700
Subject: Anti-Potter groups
In-Reply-To: <004001c01eb5$36dde700$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
References: <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <8prbcj+pttc@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000914174432.02383100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000917094701.02028940@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1595

At 09:35 PM 9/14/00 -0400, Denise wrote:
>Thanks Dave!  I didn't want to pipe up first on that one--it is one of the 
>disputes I have with those men who wrote the Bible (aka King James).

Yes, we "owe" King James a lot, along with others like Saint Augustine.

I've often wondered how much of the witch persecutions over the centuries
has been veiled misogyny.  As far as I can tell, they went after Johannas 
Kepler's
mum basically because she was outspoken and strong-minded.  (For that reason I
think Hermione would have been in trouble, though Fleur could probably have 
charmed
her way into a cushy job at court.)



                                                 -- Dave




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 17 17:11:13 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:11:13 -0000
Subject: Plumbing, Electricity, Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
In-Reply-To: <8q12r6+263b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q2tvh+g8c4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1596

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

> reading the Harry Potter books that one of the great advantages of 
> magic is that it is an energy source.  A wizard or witch can use 
> magic to create light, heat and motion, which we muggles mostly 
> create using non-renewable resources such as fossil and wood fuels. 
 
> Hence, we have yet another advantage of the wizarding world -- it
> is much more environmentally sustainable than the muggle world.

Maybe it ISN'T environmentally sustainable. Larry Niven has written 
some sort-of-sword-&-sorcery stories in a universe in which magic 
works by consuming a natural energy source named 'mana'. Mana, like 
many natural resources, seems to come from the earth and is located 
in geographical places. If wizards do enough magic in one place, all 
the mana there will be used us, and magic will no longer work there. 
Magic no longer works in our world because the wizards of previous 
ages used up all the mana that ever was on Earth.

(Didn't I say all the same things about plumbing and electricity that 
you just said?)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 17 17:15:00 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:15:00 -0000
Subject: James, Head Boy/Girl, and Prefects
In-Reply-To: <8q1663+dv1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q2u6k+upe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1597

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Ok, I was thinking about the Prefect situation and was wondering 
> what it would be compatible to in the US,

In HarryPotterAnonymous (that's another e-group) at 
http://www.egroups.com/message/harrypotteranonymous/2444

John Walton posted a lot of detailed information about prefects and 
Head Boys, starting with message #2444. Good followers in the 
thread include #2465, 2472, 2478, and 2483 -- that last is more 
info from John Walton.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep 17 17:47:28 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:47:28 -0400
Subject: Fromt he Washington Post's Style Invitational
References: <d0.b25a461.26f59d46@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39C503B0.367A919A@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1598

How do I describe the Style Invitational?
I really can't, except to say that it's a very funny , weekly column in the
Washington Post
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/style/columns/styleinvitational/A12162-2000Sep15.html)
which allows readers to use humor to comment on headlines of the day.
Today's contest has the following "sample" entry:
A line we will not find in the next Harry Potter book: "Don't Bogart that joint,
Hermione."

The contest this week is pretty simple. Come up with a line that surely will not
appear in an upcoming work.






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 17:53:39 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:53:39 -0000
Subject: When is the "How has HP changed my life" contest over...
Message-ID: <8q30f3+s61k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1599

Firstly I was wondering if anyone besides me entered, and of course 
Heidi for her son.  What about Alicia/Sue?  Secondly I was wondering 
whether the dates for the contest entries have been changed, or maybe 
I'm just going daffy...probably the latter.  

I mailed my entry on the 11th of September and was under the 
impression at the time that it was the last day. As of last night 
however the scholastic said that entries must be postmarked by the 
18th.  Winners were supposed to be noified by the 18th but now it is 
the 25th...did it really change or am I really going crazy?  If it 
did change then why, possibly they didn't get enough entries???


Scott




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Sep 17 18:43:11 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:43:11 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] anti Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <ad.a6aaa2.26f59cf3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000917100933.020293a0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1600

At 12:05 AM 9/17/00 -0400, Schlobin at aol.com wrote:
>Many Christians notice that Harry Potter is not evil, but rather is the
>antithesis of evil, and find that the lessons of love, friendship, loyalty,
>fighting against injustice are God's fight and therefore moral, and therefore
>appropriate for children.

The Harry-haters can't see the wood for the trees -- It's a little like
Louisa May Alcott -- Goddess bless her! -- censuring Huck Finn because
he smoked, sweared, and didn't go to church, and not seeing that he is
a brave hero, in his own way fighting one of the things she most loathed --
slavery.

>I'm a pagan, and a witch. A real one. I don't work evil, I don't hurt people,
>I don't torture or maim or sacrifice, and I don't work evil magic.

I'm a Pagan as well, and I am learning how hard it is to fight other people's
prejudices... And the media is no help at all, with _Blair Witch Project_
most recently, and such movie "classics" as _Rosemary's Baby_, possibly the
worst movie ever made (Even _Attack of the Killer Tomatos_ isn't a two-hour
orgy of lies about an entire religious group!)...

>The origins of Christmas/Yule were of course pagan as are all the Christian
>holidays. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate any holidays for this reason...

I once knew a Jehovah's Witness, and I wondered why she wouldn't
celebrate Christmas...

Blessed Be!



                                                 -- Dave




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Sep 17 19:36:03 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:36:03 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000916075827.008615bc@popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8q36f3+7gmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1601


> 
> There's clearly some reason for Harry being sent to Mrs Figg's 
house,
> especially as she's been revealed as being more than just an old 
lady in the
> 'hood with a few cats and limited baking skills. It would be 
interesting to
> know why the Dursleys tend to deposit Harry with Mrs Figg when they 
need a
> child-sitter.  Did Dumbledore suggest they do that in his letter or 
did he
> charm them into doing it?  Did the Dursleys know Mrs Figg before 
Harry was
> left on their doorstep?  Was Mrs Figg even living in Privet Drive 
before
> Harry arrived there?

Mrs. Figg doesn't live in Privet Drive, actually; she lives two 
streets away. While this seems like an insignificant point, it does 
set up several interesting moments: Mrs. Figg is wandering around 
Privet Drive on her crutches after breaking her leg, and Dudley 
knocks her over. What in the world was she DOING there with a broken 
leg? Trying to find out what happened to Harry, who was in the middle 
of his longest punishment ever, locked for weeks under the stairs? 
Also, two streets away is where Harry ends up after running away from 
home, and where the Knight Bus picks him up -- but how could he call 
the Knight Bus when he didn't even know it existed? Did someone ELSE, 
maybe Mrs. Figg, call the bus for him? I discuss this entire question 
in the Lexicon (read that page and let me know what you think...click 
on "Help/About" and find the "Puzzles, Red Herrings, Mysteries, etc." 
link.)

As for why the Dursleys sent Harry to Mrs Figg's house, I am more and 
more convinced that Petunia is Lily's squib sister. She, like Filch, 
resents all this magic rubbish and fights against it as one who has 
been rejected by it. But she is keenly aware of the magical world 
from the point of view of one who grew up in it, and even though she 
is doing her best to reject that world since she never fit in, she 
does recognize the danger Lord Voldemort poses even to her adopted 
Muggle world and that Harry must be protected. Petunia barely ever 
speaks with fear and hatred of the magical world--that's Vernon's 
role. She does fear and hate it, but for very different reasons, and 
that fear and hatred do not keep her from realizing the way things 
really are.

And hey, Figg is yet another plant name. Maybe she's an aunt or 
something in Lily and Petunia's family!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 17 19:52:39 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:52:39 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg (possible spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <8q36f3+7gmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q37e7+g2d2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1602

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" wrote:
> 
> And hey, Figg is yet another plant name. Maybe she's an aunt or 
> something in Lily and Petunia's family!

*IF* Mrs. Figg is Arabella Figg, Arabella is not another plant name.

By the way, WHAT IS a warlock in HP universe!!!!




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep 17 21:14:31 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:14:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plumbing, Electricity, Wizarding Teabags? and muggle inventions
Message-ID: <v02140b40b5eae4704935@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1603


>Maybe it ISN'T environmentally sustainable. Larry Niven has written
>some sort-of-sword-&-sorcery stories in a universe in which magic
>works by consuming a natural energy source named 'mana'. Mana, like
>many natural resources, seems to come from the earth and is located
>in geographical places. If wizards do enough magic in one place, all
>the mana there will be used us, and magic will no longer work there.
>Magic no longer works in our world because the wizards of previous
>ages used up all the mana that ever was on Earth.
>
>(Didn't I say all the same things about plumbing and electricity that
>you just said?)
>
This is off the subject, but I had a very frustrating conversation with
someone recently who was very concerned that we were using up all the water
on the planet.  I attempted to explain to him that the amount of water on
this planet essentially does not change, but he wouldn't believe me.

Don't they teach science in high school anymore?

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Sep 17 20:23:46 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:23:46 -0000
Subject: Mini-Me will be Peeves
In-Reply-To: <8pmpgn+lp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q398i+im3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1604

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, angelx_ph at y... wrote:
> Verne Troyer (best known as Mini-Me) has landed a role in the 
eagerly awaited Harry Potter movie. The pint sized actor will play 
Peeves the poltergeist in the screen adaptation of J.K. Rowling's 
best seller, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001. The 31-year-
old actor joins British stars Robbie Coltrane, Alan Rickman and Dame 
Maggie Smith in the cast for the eagerly awaited flick.

-----------------

Well, he might be terrific.  Doesn't seem as old as I picture 
Peeves.  I always see Peeves as a cross between Uncle Albert in the 
movie Mary Poppins, and the old cartoon character 'The Funky 
Phantom'.  But, for an actor to play Peeves, I thought of Simon 
Callow, Gareth in "Four Weddings and a Funeral", (the one who died).  
Guess it doesn't matter now.

Kelley




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 17 21:55:37 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:55:37 -0500
Subject: When is the "How has HP changed my life" contest over...
References: <8q30f3+s61k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C53DD8.9FBFF2C9@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1605

Hi:

Scott wrote:

> Secondly I was wondering whether the dates for the contest entries
> have been changed, or maybe I'm just going daffy...probably the
> latter.
>
> I mailed my entry on the 11th of September and was under the
> impression at the time that it was the last day. As of last night
> however the scholastic said that entries must be postmarked by the
> 18th.  Winners were supposed to be noified by the 18th but now it is
> the 25th...did it really change or am I really going crazy?  If it
> did change then why, possibly they didn't get enough entries???

Someone posted something to one of the HP lists this past week regarding
the problem of Alaska & Hawaii.  Apparently, Scholastic had initially
limited participation to residents of one of the 48 contiguous states,
and students from Alaska & Hawaii raised such a storm of protest, that
Scholastic was forced to change their rules & extend the entry
deadline.  I'm not sure why they excluded AL & HI in the first place --
what a weird restriction.  Limiting it to U.S. residents makes some
sense, but why the 48 contiguous states?  I was very surprised when I
read the article discussing the protests from AL residents.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 17 21:50:58 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:50:58 CDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A writer's power of imagination (was: Abusive behavior)
Message-ID: <F81vJ1xKjtgZe0J64TB000068f9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1606

Hi:

I have to agree with Peg.  I've read nothing to suggest that JKR had 
anything other than a happy childhood.  That's not to say that she *wasn't* 
abused, but every indication is that she was not.  She's a powerful writer, 
and I don't think it's necessarily true that she would have needed to 
experience child abuse first-hand in order to write about it effectively.  
There are a number of explanations that run the gamut from (a) she *was* an 
abused child herself (most extreme); (b) she had friends or close relatives 
who lived through this experience; (c) she worked with abused children in 
some capacity at some time in her life; (d) she read extensively on the 
subject as Peg suggests is possible, conducted interviews, etc.; or (e) she 
has no more than general knowledge of this problem but was able to translate 
it effectively into her books nonetheless (the other extreme).  There are 
probably a number of other options between my (a) & (e).

While I think there *are* possibly some experiences that are best conveyed 
by an author if they have some personal experience with the matter, I don't 
think this is one of them.

Penny

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 17 22:13:25 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:13:25 -0700
Subject: 1.Fudge, 2.Hogwarts Founders
Message-ID: <39C54204.2B181950@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1607

First let me inflict a scrap of chat on you-uns:
jferer says, Microsoft tactic: FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt)
catlady_de_los_angeles says, The first 3 letters of FUDge
catlady_de_los_angeles says, is G greed?
jferer says, FUDge? Coincidence? I think not...
gypsycaine says, empty headed = e
catlady_de_los_angeles says, Envy
catlady_de_los_angeles says, Elitism
catlady_de_los_angeles says, Egotism

Now, to the point (which also appeared repeatedly in the chat)

I think the surnames of the Founders are not family names, as family
names hadn't been invented yet (for example, Harry's history textbook
told of a witch who was burned 47 times: Wendilyn the Weird, not
Wendilyn Weisenheimer). Instead, they were epithets, nicknames ('surnom'
in French) given to them by their associates.

1. Gryffindor

I just figured out a few days ago that the name Gryffindor is a merger
of GRUFFYDD (Griffith) and GLYNDWR (glendower). Both are Welsh names. (I
posted that on hpa but no one responded).

If he's Gruffydd Glyndwr rather than Godric Gryphon d'Or, then he's
Welsh rather than Norman, which is much more suitable for someone
founding a wizarding school in Britain circa 990 CE ('more than a
thousand years ago'), considering that the Norman Conquest was 1066.

Ffor Gruffydd Glyndwr to have allowed his name to be changed to Godric
Gryffindor, he must have been excessively tolerant of the Sassenachs who
can't
pronounce a decent language....

My friend Lee thinks that Gryffindor is pronounced Gryffinder (as Jim
Dale does) and originated as Griffin Finder.

2. Hufflepuff

Helga was named Hufflepuff by her childhood 'friends' because of the way
she huffed and puffed after doing all her family's heavy housework
before her mother even woke (hard work is a Hufflepuff trait).

3. Slytherin

Salazar was given that name, indicating his slipperiness and slimiyess,
by people who had done business with him. They made have been the lucky
ones: they were still alive.

4. Ravenclaw

I didn't know why Rowena was called Ravenclaw, but Dee suggested she had
been a raven Anigmagus, perhaps the one who pestered Poe. I agree that
perching on a bust of Pallas Athena (whose Roman name is Minerva) in a
library fits with her scholarliness. Perhaps she was trying to chase Poe
from the room so that she could turn back into human and read the book
she'd come looking for.




--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 22:40:42 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:40:42 -0400
Subject: Water supply, ot.
References: <v02140b40b5eae4704935@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <006f01c020f8$5272b000$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1608

Lori,
It's not that we are using up the water, it's that the water supply is being contaminated at an alarming rate.

That's the scary part.

Dee


This is off the subject, but I had a very frustrating conversation with
someone recently who was very concerned that we were using up all the water
on the planet.  I attempted to explain to him that the amount of water on
this planet essentially does not change, but he wouldn't believe me.

Don't they teach science in high school anymore?

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 23:48:07 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:48:07 -0000
Subject: too bad he couldn't be cast...(plus other stuff)
Message-ID: <8q3l7n+akv7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1609

Hello folks, and sorry for yet another casting post.
I finally received my HP stuff that I ordered from the WB store 
website.  I got a Hogwarts tshirt and the pen set.  Anyway, I was 
looking at the pictures of the characters, and I realized that Hagrid 
looks like the late Jerry Garcia!  It's a shame he's not around to be 
given the role...
Another thing...with all this school, I have fallen extremely behind 
on the messages.  How far back do you think I should read to be able 
to catch up to the latest conversation?  I do not receive the 
messages via email because my mailbox clogs up fast.
Auf Wiedersehen,
Kaitlin

PS to Alicia/Sue:  The quote at the end of your last message 
was "People like you are the reason people like me vomit."  Did this 
by any chance come from the show "Daria"?

Thought for the day: "No te preocupes porque nada es imposible." 
(Ricky Martin)

Last Movie Seen: "Autumn in New York"
Discman's Spinning: "M?s," Alejandro Sanz
Current Book: "Amor es m?s laberinto," Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 00:17:57 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:17:57 -0000
Subject: Does JKR's Narration Fit The Mold?
Message-ID: <8q3mvl+7rvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1610

Hello, everyone!

Veering off my twin pet fave subjects of teaching and religion for 
the time being.  :)  I've been meaning to share the following for 
almost a week now.

The other night in class, we had a semi-heated debate about the 
functions of dramatis personae (characters) in folklore.  There were 
several interesting points made.  I brought up the fact that Propp's 
theory could only be applied to the subgenre of the fairy tale--
trickster tales do not fit this mold.  Some of my classmates as well 
as the professor felt that the functions are archetypal, or so 
embedded in our collective subconscious that they are common to all 
humankind.

My question is this.  Does HP?  Peg led a very interesting discussion 
the other week about the rules of fiction.  Is there a pattern for 
fictional success?  Here's Propp's version--the good prof here 
implied that Harry Potter conforms to these rules in some way.  I 
rejected this theory and did my weekly paper on another essay, but I 
was *very* curious to see what the opinions here were.

THE FUNCTIONS OF DRAMATIS PERSONAE

Initial theses:
1)  Functions of characters serve as stable, constant elements in a 
tale, independent of how and by whom they are fulfilled.  They 
constitute the fundamental elements of a tale.
2)  The number of functions known is limited.
3)  The sequence of functions is *always* identical.
4)  All tales are of one type in regard to their structure.

A tale usually begins with some sort of initial situation.

After the initial situation, there follow functions:
1)  One of the members of a family absents himself from home.
2)  An interdiction is addressed to the hero.
3)  The interdiction is violated.
4)  The villain makes an attempt at reconnaissance.
5)  The villain receives information about his victim.
6)  The villain attempts to deceive his victim in order to take 
possession of him or of his belongings.
7)  The victim unknowingly helps the villain by being deceived or 
influenced by the villain.
8)  The villain harms a member of the family or a member of the 
family lacks or desires something.
9)  This lack or misfortune is made known; the hero is given a quest 
or command, and he goes or is sent on a mission/quest.
10)  The seeker (often the hero) plans action against the villain.
11)  The hero leaves home.
12)  The hero is tested, attacked, interrogated, and receives either 
a magical agent or helper.
13)  The hero reacts to the actions of the future donor.
14)  The hero uses the magical agent.
15)  The hero is transferred to the general location of the object of 
his mission/quest.
16)  The hero and villain join in direct combat.
17)  The hero is branded.
18)  The villain is defeated.
19)  The initial misfortune or lack is set right.
20)  The hero returns home.
21)  The hero is pursued.
22)  The hero is rescued from pursuit.
23)  The hero arrives home or elsewhere and is not recognized.
24)  A false hero makes false claims.
25)  A difficult task is set for the hero.
26)  The task is accomplished.
27)  The hero is recognized.
28)  The false hero/villain is exposed.
29)  The false hero is transformed.
30)  The villain is punished.
31)  The hero is married and crowned.

While this paint-by-numbers view of fiction and of storytelling in 
general may work for some, I reject it as being myopic and 
exclusionary.  (Think that's what I said last week... can't remember 
my whole argument though.)  I also think that to apply this theory to 
the Harry Potter novels is an attack on JKR's unique voice and 
arresting narrative style, although some of my classmates do not 
agree.  The general feeling I got when it was brought up is that HP 
is "not great literature"--direct quote from a classmate who *is* a 
Ph.D. student in kidlit.  Nice girl who has two master's degrees in 
English already, but her statement *really* ticked me off.

What do you think?

Ebony




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 18 00:40:27 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:40:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A writer's power of imagination (was: Abusive  behavior)
References: <F81vJ1xKjtgZe0J64TB000068f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39C5647B.7FC760F3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1611



Penny Linsenmayer wrote:

> I have to agree with Peg.  I've read nothing to suggest that JKR had
> anything other than a happy childhood.  That's not to say that she *wasn't*
> abused, but every indication is that she was not.  She's a powerful writer,
> and I don't think it's necessarily true that she would have needed to
> experience child abuse first-hand in order to write about it effectively.

Afterthought to my previous message: when you think about it, it's really
strange for us to assume that JK Rowling, of all people, would have to had
experienced ANYTHING in order to write about it.  I mean, JK Rowling?  How many
Quidditch matches do you suppose has she actually played in?  How many students
did she turn into ferrets when she was a teacher?  How many hippograffs has she
met?  How many dragons has she fought?

I think it has already been established that this is a woman with a vivid
imagination.

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 01:04:44 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:04:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] anti Harry Potter
References: <ad.a6aaa2.26f59cf3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006101c0210c$71782fc0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1612

I love this phrase!  Permission to steal it, please?

Dee


I don't believe in Satan, but I do believe in evil. There are people who are 
deliberately hurt, and torture others, and they are evil.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 01:27:04 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:27:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Abusive behavior and water quality
References: <F81vJ1xKjtgZe0J64TB000068f9@hotmail.com> <39C5647B.7FC760F3@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c0210f$94136920$a48fd6ce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1613


> Penny Linsenmayer wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with Peg.  I've read nothing to suggest that JKR had
> > anything other than a happy childhood.  That's not to say that she
*wasn't*
> > abused, but every indication is that she was not.  She's a powerful
writer,
> > and I don't think it's necessarily true that she would have needed to
> > experience child abuse first-hand in order to write about it
effectively.
>
> Afterthought to my previous message: when you think about it, it's really
> strange for us to assume that JK Rowling, of all people, would have to had
> experienced ANYTHING in order to write about it.  I mean, JK Rowling?  How
many
> Quidditch matches do you suppose has she actually played in?  How many
students
> did she turn into ferrets when she was a teacher?  How many hippograffs
has she
> met?  How many dragons has she fought?
>
> I think it has already been established that this is a woman with a vivid
> imagination.

I agree with the above that Harry's treatment by the Dursleys was wild
imagination and intended to be so horrible as to be a bit charicature.  I
hope this comes across right and not disrespectful of those who have
actually suffered abuse like this...but my point is coming from a "normal"
childhood, could JKR have thought she was relating something so horrific
that people would surely take it as not possible....What I'm trying to say
is that I don't think the Dursleys treatment of Harry is intended as
documentary and therefore would not require first hand experience to write
about.

Plus her descriptions of the Dursleys are intended as cartoonish, and while
I don't doubt that there really are children in as horrible circumstances as
Harry was at the beginning of SS, and not to take their plight lightly,
Harry's abuse, I believe was intended as exagerated.....intended to provide
the reader with a sense of relief that Harry is escaping from them.  If they
had been a warm loving family it would not have provided that counterpoint.
The Dursleys abuse also gives Harry an empathy that counters his fame, once
he learns about it.  He knows what it feels like to be bullied, alone and
definitely *not* special...which helps him deal better as he learns just how
special he is.

Hope this makes sense...its been so long since I posted, as I have been in
awe of the depth of discussion (re: character traits...pride, ambition,
etc....not to mention the quantum mechanics and what-his-names cat...and I
thought I had a good scientific education...went to a science and
engineering college...but never ran across the cat...I was in oceanography
however, so the cat would have drowned)  am I rambling tonight or what!  And
don't get me started on water quality issues...I was a environmental
consultant (told companies how to clean up their groundwater problems) for
10 years.

carole

PS.  I am laughing as I write this comment on the Dursleys, not about the
subject matter (abuse)  as it is very serious, but my very first post to the
Yahoo board (#1012...April 8) was on this very subject....I happened to come
across it the other day doing research fro the FAQ on Sirius.






From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep 18 03:09:24 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:09:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Water supply, ot.
Message-ID: <v02140b42b5eb37bcdb4d@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1614

>
>Lori,
>It's not that we are using up the water, it's that the water supply is
>being contaminated at an alarming rate.
>
>That's the scary part.
>
>Dee
>
Yes, I know this.  The water is still*there,* however.  This guy thought it
was being physically used up.  Theoretically it could all be cleaned up.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From kippesp at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 02:27:29 2000
From: kippesp at yahoo.com (smitster )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:27:29 -0000
Subject: Songs for the Movie
In-Reply-To: <028901c0161c$9305cc60$a6cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8q3uih+geor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1615

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Ok, slam me for this idea.  Listening to my son's Tigger Movie 
(like I watch them, lol?  Grins, and nods!), I am hearing a beautiful 
song about Tigger.  To listen 
http://www.geocities.com/gypsycaine/yourheartwillleadyouhome.MP3

Well I won't slam you.  But I won't admit to listening to _ALL_ of 
it. :)

Actually, while listening to it I imagined it fitting into to the 
scene in PoA when Harry is on the Night Bus when he literally has no 
place to go.  But, alas, my teeth grit when I hear these sappy songs 
and I hit FF when available.  It's the same feeling after 
recommending a film to someone and while watching it (with them) 
something like this starts up and I think, "Damn...I forgot about 
this."

Trailing by seven days...
Paul








From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 02:49:46 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:49:46 -0400
Subject: Chats.
References: <8q3uih+geor@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c0211b$2012a3e0$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1616

I missed alot of you during the chat today.  Please feel free to check out the "other" egroup for copies of any chats you have missed!  I uploaded the chats to the main posting areas (Not like anyone actually posts messages over there, lol!), to make them easier for folks.  Rita was having a problem opening the files in netscape, hence the "improvement?"  

Thanks for checking it out.  Now, I suppose you want the url, right?

Or else, you want me to shut up, and go to sleep!

LOL
Dee
http://www.egroups.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 18 03:01:34 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:01:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plumbing, Electricity, Wizarding Teabags? and  muggle inventions
References: <v02140b40b5eae4704935@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <39C5858D.1F32364E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1617

summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:

> This is off the subject, but I had a very frustrating conversation with
> someone recently who was very concerned that we were using up all the water
> on the planet.  I attempted to explain to him that the amount of water on
> this planet essentially does not change, but he wouldn't believe me.

Sounds like this is right up there with my great-grandmother, who thought it
was a tremendous waste of alcohol to put it in beer.

--Amanda




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 03:18:55 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:18:55 -0000
Subject: Water/ alcohol conservation (muy OT)
In-Reply-To: <39C5858D.1F32364E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8q41iv+7ef0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1618

Actually, as a college student, I can say unequivocally that it is a 
tremendous waste of alcohol *not* to put it in beer.




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Mon Sep 18 03:24:01 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:24:01 -0000
Subject: FAQ status and the same old same old
In-Reply-To: <8pujfr+trvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q41sh+cjcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1619

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
>But I have been > thinking lately about how the same questions pop 
>up over and over and > over and over again, and it sure would be 
>nice to be sure that next > time someone asks about that same old 
>tired topic we will just be > able to say -- FAQ #37


I still maintain that the best way to not stifle free discussion and 
thought is to simply ignore any question that one has seen over and 
over again.  There may be others on the list who want to enjoy 
rethinking and re-evaluating.

Vicki






From vjmerri at iquest.net  Mon Sep 18 03:35:50 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:35:50 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem, and Harry's brand of  Magic
In-Reply-To: <8puq4t+q75o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q42im+t97o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1620

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:

> I also argree with Penny in that Harry himself made his father come 
> first.  After all it was only by Harry's will that ANYTHING came 
out 
> of Voldemort's wand, if V. had had the stronger will Harry's wand 
> would have been the wand spitting up spells, right?
 

Yes, but I don't agree that Harry caused the "reversal."  Harry 
didn't actually cause the wand to regurgitate spells.  That was an 
effect of his holding his own in the fight, caused by his magical 
strength, perhaps, but not caused BY him.  i.e.  because the wands 
were brothers, it was tough to make them fight each other and that is 
what caused the regurgitation.  Dumbledore specifically stated that 
the reversal was a rare BUT KNOWN effect caused by the relationship 
of the wands.  It wasn't caused by harry's will at all.

I think James died after Lily, and that that may be important in a 
later book.  NOw why everyone, including apparently Voldemort, thinks 
James died first is a question I don't know the answer to, but it 
seems more likely to me that Voldemort is either lying or simply 
wrong, and that James died last.

Vicki




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Mon Sep 18 03:45:06 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:45:06 -0000
Subject: Head Boy (was:Lily
In-Reply-To: <8pusjl+hp5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q4342+3l8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1621

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> popular. James had good grades and was popular and admired, but was 
a > rotten example of behavior.

Not really.  Remember that he and the others weren't caught very 
often.  He was smart.  Dumbledore said that the invisibility cloak 
was mainly used for stealing (nicking) extra food from the kitchens.  
he knew about the incident with Severus and young Remus, but thought 
that all James had done was rush to Severus' rescue.  He and the rest 
of the professors never knew about the animagus or the marauder's map 
or any number of other escapades that we don't know about yet.

So there would be no reason not to select him as head boy.

Vicki




From shellymoos at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 03:48:40 2000
From: shellymoos at hotmail.com (Shelly )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 03:48:40 -0000
Subject: Abuse in HP
Message-ID: <8q43ao+ui35@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1622

Hi all.  I finally got caught up with all my messages since the move, 
and have enjoyed them.  But one has touched me a little more than 
others.
Regarding the abuse to Harry.  I happen to agree with Peg.  I think 
because she is such a good writer JKR was able to do such a great job 
with this area of the books.  As Penny says there is no evidence to 
show she was an abused child, this is just a product of her great 
imagination.  Besides I know first hand how hard it is to write about 
something like this.
Growing up I lived in an abusive home.  My mother was an alcoholic 
and a nasty abusive person when she was drunk, which was a lot of the 
time.  And though the abuse in my home was mostly physical, unlike 
Harry whose is emotional, the end result is often the same.  I was 
lucky in the respect that I got out when I was fourteen.  I went to 
live with my father.  My mother had denied contact with him since 
their divorce when I was four.  He did everything he could to help 
erase the ten years of abuse, but it will always be with me to a 
certain extent.  I was always the quiet child, with my nose in a 
book, doing what I was told and staying out of trouble.  Books have 
always been my salvation and in someways that is probably one of the 
reasons I love these books.  When I was in college I had to write a 
paper about child abuse and realized I just couldn't.  It was alittle 
to close to home.  This was about the same time I lost my mother so I 
was just a little bit of a basket case.  But looking back on 
everything now as an adult I realize my mother probably was raised 
the same way I was and just didn't know any better.  Her parents 
drank a lot also, so this probably is the case.  And I suppose that 
is one reason why I never drink.  I wanted to break the cycle and am 
happy to say I think I am.  At least my three aren't growing up like 
I did.  In fact I think I over compensate sometimes which isn't great 
but at least they don't know the fear that I did as a child.  The 
point to all this I guess is just that it is probably just as easy to 
write about if you are a good writer.  In some ways it just might be 
harder for some one who has been through it.  I know it would be for 
me.  And even though I am 35 now and see things through the eyes of 
am adult, there is always that little girl in me that wonders why.  I 
also have to agree with Carole.  For us to be happy to see Harry 
leave the Dursleys and face what is ahead of him I believe JKR wrote 
them to the extreme.  You really hate the Dursleys and that is the 
whole point.  And anyway isn't that what any good writer is supposed 
to make us do,  Feel for the characters?  Okay enough for now.  I 
have to go tuck the kids into bed.  I'm reading them  the first book 
and they are hounding me for another chapter.  Later all   Shelly  




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 03:55:15 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:55:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Head Boy (was:Lily
Message-ID: <d0.b2e2a51.26f6ec23@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1623

No. In the conversation at the Three Broomsticks, it's stated that Sirius and James caused more trouble than the Weasley Twins.

Ellie

In a message dated Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:46:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at iquest.net> writes:

<< In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> popular. James had good grades and was popular and admired, but was 
a > rotten example of behavior.

Not really.  Remember that he and the others weren't caught very 
often.  He was smart.  Dumbledore said that the invisibility cloak 
was mainly used for stealing (nicking) extra food from the kitchens.  
he knew about the incident with Severus and young Remus, but thought 
that all James had done was rush to Severus' rescue.  He and the rest 
of the professors never knew about the animagus or the marauder's map 
or any number of other escapades that we don't know about yet.

So there would be no reason not to select him as head boy.

Vicki


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com



 >>





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 05:28:30 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:28:30 EDT
Subject: a writer's power of imagination (was abusive behavior)
Message-ID: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1624

It's really not important to me that you agree that Rowlings probably 
experienced abuse or knew someone who did...what's important to me is that 
you realize that what Harry experiences at the Dursleys, is what children go 
through who are being 
abused in their homes. It's extremely realistic.

The dynamics of child and partner abuse are not very well known outside of 
their fields, and those who have been there, and the situation with the 
Dursleys is too
real to have been imagined.

It's one thing to "make up" Quidditch; it's another thing to describe so 
precisely the dynamics of a very specific sub set of human behavior. If she 
didn't experience it or know someone, then she did interviews or research.

Susan



From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 05:35:21 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:35:21 EDT
Subject: not a caricature; nothing wrong with having been abused
Message-ID: <2b.adac5f9.26f70399@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1625

Let me say (again) that the Dursleys treatment of Harry is NOT a caricature,
but a very accurate example of child abuse. It, in fact, is a less SERIOUS 
example
of child abuse because although he gets beat up by the kids at school, and 
punched
continuously by Dudley and friends, he does not end up in the hospital with 
broken
bones. 

I have no clue whether the author was herself abused as a child, but ya' 
know, it's not to her discredit if she had been...it would be to her credit 
that she survived so well, and is such an outstanding person....People 
jumping to deny that possibility feel to me as if they are saying that 
there's something wrong with the person who was abused.

Susan



From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 06:01:31 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:01:31 -0500
Subject: WB
References: <969255335.4703@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C5AFBB.912867E3@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1626

Went by the WB store again Sunday....
Additional merchandise, not there 1+ week ago:

*Snow globe, with Harry, Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore around a cauldron.

*Rather well made stufed snowy owl with a gold collar, and suprisingly
good price US$16 to be as big as it was (probably 8 inches tall or more)

*2 coffee mugs with paintings of Harry and Hermione on brooms on one,
Harry on broom and Hedwig in close up on the other

*3 additional pattterns of shirt I didn't remember.

They also said that the Harry-on-broomstick and another Christmas
ornament were in the stockroom, but she was not sure when they wre
allowed to move them up front and start selling yet.  The former was
going to be US$10.

-Brooks



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 06:38:00 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:38:00 -0000
Subject: Too many things for this subject line...spoilers
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c01f46$a297c100$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8q4d88+alkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1627

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
Kelley wrote:
> <Now, I know there's a popular theory that
> Lily has Slyth blood, but why not James?  Does everybody feel that
> the many times JKR's mentioned how much Harry, Tom Riddle, and James
> all resemble each other is just a red herring?  I just can't let 
this
> go.  Couldn't Lily be descended from Gryff?  Maybe she turned up on
> Petunia's parents doorstep the way Harry ended up with the Dursleys.
> Petunia's parents raised her as their own, and Petunia never knew; 
or
> maybe she did.  Maybe Godric Gryffindor has emerald green eyes.
> Everyone just assumed Lily was muggle-born.  Couldn't Harry be
> descended from both Slyth and Gryff?  It was Gryff and Slyth who had
> the big blow out all those years ago; Harry being descended from 
both
> would be a great twist.>

Firebolt wrote: 
> Thank you! I was thinking the same thing about James and Lily's 
ancestry.
> Another plausible way for Lily to be the descendant of Gryff (or 
any famous
> wizard, for that matter) is if one of both of her parents was 
descended
> from/is a squib...
> 
> ~Firebolt

Kelley again:
Thank you, Firebolt, I'm so glad I'm not alone!  Either there is some 
relation between Harry, James, and TRJ, -OR- JKR wants us to think 
that's where she's going, so she can throw another curveball at us.  
If Vold was only after James and Harry, it makes a lot of sense for 
them to be descended from Gryff., but there may very well be 
something like this in Lily's background too.  Your idea that her 
parents might be squibs is a good one.  Someone else posted somewhere 
that Petunia might be a squib, explaining why she's so jealous of 
Lily, which makes a lot of sense too.  Has Dumble ever mentioned that 
Lily is muggle-born, or is it only Hagrid?  

Too many questions...

Kelley




From particle at urbanet.ch  Mon Sep 18 07:18:50 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:18:50 +0200
Subject: Hogwarts Founders and James' Ancestry
References: <39C54204.2B181950@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <004001c02140$b2810f80$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1628

> If he's Gruffydd Glyndwr rather than Godric Gryphon d'Or, then he's
> Welsh rather than Norman, which is much more suitable for someone
> founding a wizarding school in Britain circa 990 CE ('more than a
> thousand years ago'), considering that the Norman Conquest was 1066.

How does one go about finding the origins of a specific name, anyway? I am
planning to write a founder fic at one point, so any advice/suggestions in
that area would be most greatfully accepted...^_^;;;. I did manage to come
up with Godric Gryphon d'Or, but then, it'd have been a bit embarrassing if
I hadn't, seeing as I've had at least three years of schooling in French...

> Salazar was given that name, indicating his slipperiness and slimiyess,
> by people who had done business with him. They made have been the lucky
> ones: they were still alive.

Wasn't Salazar the name of a Portuguese dictator earlier this century?

~Firebolt




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 07:37:03 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:37:03 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
In-Reply-To: <8q12cm+orsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q4gmv+rj7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1629

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Dumbledore was wrong about "Moody" in Book 4. Crouch Jr. was able 
to 
> fool Dumbledore the ENTIRE school year.

Ha!  That's true, I wasn't even thinking about that.  So, would you 
think this could mean there might be something in James' or Lily's 
past that he doesn't know about?  It certainly seems possible...

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 07:57:54 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:57:54 -0000
Subject: anti Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000917100933.020293a0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8q4hu2+afkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1630

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
> >The origins of Christmas/Yule were of course pagan as are all the 
Christian
> >holidays. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate any holidays for 
this reason...
> 
> I once knew a Jehovah's Witness, and I wondered why she wouldn't
> celebrate Christmas...
> 
> Blessed Be!
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

I know Jehovah's Witnesses also do not celebrate birthdays, and as 
Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth, this is another 
reason they don't celebrate it.  Something about, in the bible, every 
time there was some celebration for a birthday, something bad would 
happen, and this was a sign from God that birthdays should not be 
celebrated.  That's the gist of it, anyway. 

Kelley




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 11:17:46 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:17:46 +1000
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
References: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1631

For what it's worth - I think the description of the abuse is very realistic but the effect on Harry is not ie for that level of emotional abuse he just doesn't seem *that* damaged. he still has a strong sence of self and a sence that he is not deserving of this kind of treatment. If he didn't then he wouldn't have been able to 'set' the boa on Dudders.

someone said on this group a while ago that Harry could have a strong sence of self through his early experances with Lily and James. I don't think that 16 months (July 1980 - October 1981) of care, even at that crutial time, would be able to combat 9.5 years in a cupboard.

storm

btw - where did I get the 1980 date from? It's very clear in my mind but from where?

 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Schlobin at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 3:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a writer's power of imagination (was abusive behavior)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  It's really not important to me that you agree that Rowlings probably 
  experienced abuse or knew someone who did...what's important to me is that 
  you realize that what Harry experiences at the Dursleys, is what children go 
  through who are being 
  abused in their homes. It's extremely realistic.

  The dynamics of child and partner abuse are not very well known outside of 
  their fields, and those who have been there, and the situation with the 
  Dursleys is too
  real to have been imagined.

  It's one thing to "make up" Quidditch; it's another thing to describe so 
  precisely the dynamics of a very specific sub set of human behavior. If she 
  didn't experience it or know someone, then she did interviews or research.

  Susan

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 10:53:47 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:53:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] not a caricature; nothing wrong with having been abused
References: <2b.adac5f9.26f70399@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002101c0215e$bb0fef40$4e6a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1632

> Let me say (again) that the Dursleys treatment of Harry is NOT a
caricature,
> but a very accurate example of child abuse. It, in fact, is a less SERIOUS
> example
> of child abuse because although he gets beat up by the kids at school, and
> punched
> continuously by Dudley and friends, he does not end up in the hospital
with
> broken
> bones.

> I have no clue whether the author was herself abused as a child, but ya'
> know, it's not to her discredit if she had been...it would be to her
credit
> that she survived so well, and is such an outstanding person....People
> jumping to deny that possibility feel to me as if they are saying that
> there's something wrong with the person who was abused.

Absolutely not, and I in no way meant to imply this, and I in no way think
that it would be a discredit for her to have been abused.  I have no idea if
she was abused, but in the few interviews that she has mentioned her
childhood she gives no indication that is was anything less than "typical".

That said I also really don't think, and this is strictly my opinion, that
she did extensive research on child abuse before writing the Dursley scenes.
I think she sat down and said how can I make these people seem truly
horrible and wrote from there.  Unfortunately I think it did come across as
a too accurate portrayal of realistic abuse (maybe more accurate than most
of us realize), but given the other descriptions of the Dursleys (which seem
extreme in most aspects) this situation seems to be intended as "unreal"
which makes the magic world seem more "real" once its encountered.

Maybe I was being blind and JKR really is trying to infuse us with a bit of
social concious raising in that part of the book and stir us to action
(which would be a good thing), but IMO it was portrayed as it was to give a
strong counterpoint to the magic world.

carole








From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 11:37:01 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:37:01 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
Message-ID: <60.6fc2708.26f7585e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1633

In a message dated Mon, 18 Sep 2000  6:11:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at hotmail.com> writes:

<< For what it's worth - I think the description of the abuse is very realistic but the effect on Harry is not ie for that level of emotional abuse he just doesn't seem *that* damaged. he still has a strong sence of self and a sence that he is not deserving of this kind of treatment. If he didn't then he wouldn't have been able to 'set' the boa on Dudders.

someone said on this group a while ago that Harry could have a strong sence of self through his early experances with Lily and James. I don't think that 16 months (July 1980 - October 1981) of care, even at that crutial time, would be able to combat 9.5 years in a cupboard.

storm

btw - where did I get the 1980 date from? It's very clear in my mind but from where? >>

It's based on Nearly-Headless Nick's deathday, October 31, 1492. If Harry was 12 at the 500th deathday, he must have been born in 1980.

Ellie

 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Schlobin at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 3:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a writer's power of imagination (was abusive behavior)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  It's really not important to me that you agree that Rowlings probably 
  experienced abuse or knew someone who did...what's important to me is that 
  you realize that what Harry experiences at the Dursleys, is what children go 
  through who are being 
  abused in their homes. It's extremely realistic.

  The dynamics of child and partner abuse are not very well known outside of 
  their fields, and those who have been there, and the situation with the 
  Dursleys is too
  real to have been imagined.

  It's one thing to "make up" Quidditch; it's another thing to describe so 
  precisely the dynamics of a very specific sub set of human behavior. If she 
  didn't experience it or know someone, then she did interviews or research.

  Susan >>





From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 12:03:37 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:03:37 -0000
Subject: Potions - can Muggles make them?  
Message-ID: <8q50ap+gkno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1634

I've been wondering about this vaguely for a while, and I would like 
to see what other people think about it.  

What exactly is magical about potions?  Obviously the ingredients are 
not from normal Muggle plants and animals, but if a Muggle had all 
the ingredients, could he make a potion?  Where does the magic come 
into potions?  

I notice that Neville often gets his potions wrong, but this seems to 
be from following the instructions wrongly rather than any innate 
lack of magic.  I don't really understand how making a potion uses 
magic.  Can anyone help me?  

~Blaise.  




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Mon Sep 18 13:48:41 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:48:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: WB
In-Reply-To: <39C5AFBB.912867E3@indy.net>
References: <969255335.4703@egroups.com> <39C5AFBB.912867E3@indy.net>
Message-ID: <p04310100b5ebcd61783f@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1635

At 1:01 AM -0500 9/18/00, Brooks A. Rowlett wrote:
>
>*3 additional pattterns of shirt I didn't remember.

I was disappointed that the Ravenclaw shirt was only in children's 
sizes. I ordered a general Hogwarts T for myself, but I wanted a 
Ravenclaw. I think if I had been at Hogwarts, that's where I would 
have been. It seems to be the bookworm, over-achiever type house.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Mon Sep 18 13:57:19 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:57:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
In-Reply-To: <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com>
References: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com> <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04310101b5ebce019dc0@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1636

At 9:17 PM +1000 9/18/00, storm stanford wrote:
>For what it's worth - I think the description of the abuse is very 
>realistic but the effect on Harry is not ie for that level of 
>emotional abuse he just doesn't seem *that* damaged. he still has a 
>strong sence of self and a sence that he is not deserving of this 
>kind of treatment. If he didn't then he wouldn't have been able to 
>'set' the boa on Dudders.

Having been through an abusive childhood myself (not from parents, 
but from another family member) and having worked for three years 
running a crisis hotline, I can tell you that individual personality, 
apart from upbringing, plays a huge role in how a person reacts to a 
crisis situation. It has never failed to amaze me how one person can 
go through five years of repeated sexual abuse (my case) and come out 
the other end fine, and how another person can experience a single 
date-rape situation and be destroyed emotionally by it. What is very 
interesting about my case is that my sister went through a similar 
experience and we didn't discover it until we were both adults. We 
went through EXACTLY the same mental process: we both realized almost 
immediately when it started happening that it was our relative who 
was the sick puppy, that it had nothing to do with us personally 
(that we happened to be the right age and the right gender), and that 
we could choose how we responded to it emotionally. Big stuff for an 
eight-year-old, but somehow I knew it even then. However, in typical 
kid logic, we also both suffered through it because we felt that we 
were protecting the other -- if he goes for me, he won't go after my 
sister -- which was really stupid in my case because my sister was 
older. But kid logic doesn't necessarily follow reality, and at least 
my heart was in the right place.

But I see people who have gone through similar experiences -- indeed, 
even experiences not nearly as bad as what I went through -- and be 
emotionally and mentally destroyed by them. This very well may be one 
of the reasons Harry is in Gryffindor -- he certainly displayed a lot 
of ongoing courage to keep his sense of self and to realize -- even 
if he does not articulate it in this fashion -- that the problem is 
the Dursleys, not with himself.

>btw - where did I get the 1980 date from? It's very clear in my mind 
>but from where?


It had to be 1980. Nearly Headless Nick's 500th deathday party was in 
1992 (he was executed on October 31, 1492) when Harry was twelve 
(CoS).

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 18 13:28:36 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:28:36 -0500
Subject: FAQ status and the same old same old
References: <8q41sh+cjcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C61884.302B8D5D@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1637

Hi:

Vicki Merriman wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> >But I have been > thinking lately about how the same questions pop
> >up over and over and > over and over again, and it sure would be
> >nice to be sure that next > time someone asks about that same old
> >tired topic we will just be > able to say -- FAQ #37
>
>
> Vicki said: I still maintain that the best way to not stifle free
> discussion and thought is to simply ignore any question that one has
> seen over and over again.  There may be others on the list who want to
> enjoy
> rethinking and re-evaluating.

Vicki & others --

The last thing I want to do is stifle free discussion.  Here's how I see
the purpose of the FAQs that we're creating.  First, they can be a
resource for new members to see what's already been discussed about a
particular topic.  This may stimulate them to think of new angles or
theories.  Seeing our collective discussions to date on a given topic
summarized in one neat place may also stimulate our long-standing
members to do the same thing.  Second, it can be a convenient place to
send members who have a very specific question.  The URL to the FAQs
will be in the introductory message that new members receive (yeah, I
know I still need to write that, even though there are no FAQs at the
moment).

I don't think that just "ignoring" a new member who poses a question
that's been discussed over & over & over again is very friendly really
-- not if everyone just ignores that person anyway.  It seems to me that
it would overall be more friendly & welcoming to post the URL to the
relevant FAQ that would answer their question rather than ignoring
them.  Then, as I said above, they can come back to the main group &
perhaps pose a completely new twist on our old discussions.

I absolutely agree that raising similar questions can give all our
members a chance to rethink & re-evaluate the arguments & theories, but
having the FAQs available puts *everyone* on equal footing (those who've
been around since the day the Club was founded and those who just joined
yesterday).

But, I did want to emphasize that I at least am completely against
stifling free discussion (as long as it's ON-TOPIC that is).
Discussions that devolve into completely off-topic discussions should
continue to be taken off-list.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 13:24:38 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:24:38 -0000
Subject: Petunia as a Squib??
Message-ID: <8q552m+amps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1638

I do not think that theory, interesting though it is, will work. 
There 
was just too much emphasis put in the 'Lily as wizard-capable off-
spring of Muggle parents' in Book Two, too much emphasis on Harry as
a 
good wizard and a good guy, descendant of such a reverse-of-a-squib,
to 
cheapen this theme by revealing that the 'truth' was different.

It also occurs to me that in a way, JKR is defending mixed marriages 
and her daughter in the mixed-wizard-muggle theme, not just having a 
general tolerance theme.  While a Portuguese man is obviously still a 
Caucasian European, (unless descended from someone who had returned
to 
Portugal from Brazil, posibly even with some 'slave' blood) there are 
'regional' ethnic characteristics that may can come through in 
appearance and heredity.  Even if JKR's marriage ended in divorce,
she 
may be defending her right to have entered into such a mixed marriage 
and having such a child!  Has anyone ever seen a pic of her daughter?

-Brooks





From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 18 13:37:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:37:33 -0500
Subject: Priori Incantatem, and Harry's brand of  Magic
References: <8q42im+t97o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C61A9D.C1347BE0@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1639

Hi:

Vicki Merriman wrote:

> I think James died after Lily, and that that may be important in a
> later book.  NOw why everyone, including apparently Voldemort, thinks
> James died first is a question I don't know the answer to, but it
> seems more likely to me that Voldemort is either lying or simply
> wrong, and that James died last.
>

But, Priori Incantatum is supposed to be the reverse order of the
*spells* cast, not the order of who died first.  I at first had
theorized various ways in which James could have died after Lily,
thereby explaining why he comes out of V's wand first.  But, then
someone pointed out that it's the reverse order of the spells cast, not
the order of death.  So .  . . . I don't see how the spell that killed
James could have been cast *after* the spell that killed Lily.  Not
unless Voldemort has just never mentioned in his conversations with
Harry that his father tried to shield him after his mother died.

Under Harry's dementor memories, it certainly *appears* that Voldemort
encountered James first.  Maybe the spell he cast at that point didn't
work.  He moves on to Lily who is shielding Harry.  He orders her to
step aside & she refuses.  He casts the spell that kills her.  The next
logical thing to happen would be for Voldemort to turn his attention to
Harry.  He tries to curse Harry, it rebounds & leaves him without his
powers.  So, at that point, he's in no position to curse James if James
were still lingering.  So, it seems to me that the only way it could
work for James to have been cursed later than Lily is if James shook off
an earlier curse & then interposed himself between Voldemort & Harry
immediately after Lily died, before Voldemort could focus on Harry.

Possible I suppose, but . . . . I still like Trina's original theory
that James was cursed before Lily but when the spells start
regurgitating, it's Harry's strong desire to see his father first that
caused James & Lily to change order somehow within the wand.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 18 13:48:46 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:48:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
References: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com> <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39C61D3E.756FD61A@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1640

Hi --

storm stanford wrote:

> For what it's worth - I think the description of the abuse is very
> realistic but the effect on Harry is not ie for that level of
> emotional abuse he just doesn't seem *that* damaged.

That's what I've always thought, and why I would tend to agree that
JKR's purpose may be more along the lines of what Carole has argued -- a
caricature.  Like Carole, I'll emphasize that I'm not saying that this
type of abuse doesn't exist.  I'm certain that it does and that it can
be considerably worse than what Harry experiences.  But, I'm not sure I
believe that Harry could have come out of that situation as unscathed as
he appears to be in real-life.

I did enjoy Heidi's parenting attachment theories that she posted awhile
back (that the love he received early on from James & Lily would have
given him some measure of protection and self-worth during his years
with the Dursleys), but I do think any child who had lived through what
the Dursleys have done to him (especially since he also has no outside
friends or family) would be considerably less sociable, moral & centered
than Harry is.  Harry has no siblings, no friends & no family members
other than the Dursleys.  His only contact with the outside world is to
go to school (where he has no friends) or to Mrs. Figg (which he
dislikes).  Where on earth would he learn to interact socially & what it
means to make the "right" choices (Ron over Malfoy, etc.)?  He didn't
even have a library card we're told -- so it's not as though he escaped
with books & learned about life through reading.

I agree with Storm -- the abusive situation itself is probably described
with some measure of reality but the effects on Harry are not realistic
in my mind.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tattsbaby at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 13:39:00 2000
From: tattsbaby at hotmail.com (Julie )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:39:00 -0000
Subject: Brother and Sister??
Message-ID: <8q55tk+j50o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1641


It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if he 
is actually her brother or half-brother? That would make a little 
sense because he said she didn't have to die.  But he had killed a 
lot of people so why bother telling her she didn't have to die? 
Voldy's mom died during his birth, but what if Lily was born before 
Voldy........




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 18 13:41:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:41:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Order; Snape
References: <8q42im+t97o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C61B8C.70F57209@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1642

<spoiler warning---book 4 details discussed, amongst other things>

Vicki Merriman wrote:

> I think James died after Lily, and that that may be important in a
> later book.  NOw why everyone, including apparently Voldemort, thinks
> James died first is a question I don't know the answer to, but it
> seems more likely to me that Voldemort is either lying or simply
> wrong, and that James died last.

Aha! Aha! I might have an idea on this. Harry was protected from the Avra
Kedavra spell because Lily's love was "imprinted" on him. Perhaps Lily's
love also protected James, just a little, so that he did not die
immediately---but because he was not blood kin like her son, he did not
survive. And I think her bloodline might be very important.

There's been precious little mention of Lily in the books, as compared to
James. I think there's something special about her that's not been covered
yet. I've been wondering why Tom Riddle looked a bit like Harry. There's
some connection there---why did Dumbledore have a flash of triumph in his
eyes after finding out Voldemort had been raised via Harry's blood?

On a related line, I've also thought that one reason for the dedicated
potentcy of Snape's dislike for Harry may have been that Snape loved Lily,
too. And James, whom he already didn't like, got her. Even if someone like
Snape were let down easy, rather than dumped or snubbed, he's gonna carry a
grudge. Every time he looks at Harry, he not only sees James (whom Harry
really resembles), but Lily's eyes, which would remind him of humiliation.
That could help explain the complexity and durability of his intense
dislike. And could help explain why Snape stays with the good guys, even
though.

Any thoughts?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 18 14:00:58 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:00:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Brother and Sister??
References: <8q55tk+j50o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6201A.68FA35EC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1643

Julie wrote:

> It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if he
> is actually her brother or half-brother?

Well, Tom Riddle the teenager showed up to kill his parents fifty years
before the start of book 4; the groundskeeper who beat the rap was a recent
veteran of WWII. [This makes Hagrid, who was a few years behind Tom in
school, older than I'd imagined, but Hagrid does remember James et al. at
school, after all]. And Dumbledore was a professor at Hogwarts when Tom and
Hagrid were there, but was headmaster when James and Lily were. So I'm
thinking we definitely have two different generations, here. Probably
someone else has worked out the chronology better.

> But he had killed a lot of people so why bother telling her she didn't
> have to die?

Because he was *EVIL*, the type of person who'd love saying that to a woman,
killing her son in front of her, and then killing her anyway. He's a tad
warped. Harry was the goal at the moment.

--Amanda




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep 18 14:26:10 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:26:10 -0000
Subject: Chronology
Message-ID: <8q58m2+1evi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1644

Hi--
	Has any one put together a chronology of the books? I would love 
to do this but  don't want to reinvent the wheel. Or do people think 
this would unearth contradictions and spoil the magic.
Pippin





From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 18 15:05:54 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:05:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chronology
References: <8q58m2+1evi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C62F52.D12230EF@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1645

Hi:

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Has any one put together a chronology of the books? I would love
> to do this but  don't want to reinvent the wheel. Or do people think
> this would unearth contradictions and spoil the magic.

Pippin -- the Timeline/Chronology theories are being done as one of the
FAQs.  Melanie is working on this one.  I'm sure she'd be happy to have
your input, but we have had various theories about the timeline &
chronology developed when we were a Yahoo Club.  You may want to wait &
see what the FAQ says before going through all the books on this point
(unless, of course, you just want to go through them yourself).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 14:56:12 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:56:12 -0000
Subject: Brother and Sister??
In-Reply-To: <39C6201A.68FA35EC@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8q5aec+mtru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1646

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Julie wrote:

> Well, Tom Riddle the teenager showed up to kill his parents fifty 
years
> before the start of book 4; 

Not quite - his father and GRANDParents.

-Brooks




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 14:30:43 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:30:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chronology
References: <8q58m2+1evi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c0217d$0da1a5a0$836a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1647

>
> Hi--
> Has any one put together a chronology of the books? I would love
> to do this but  don't want to reinvent the wheel. Or do people think
> this would unearth contradictions and spoil the magic.
> Pippin
>

I think Steve's site has a timeline:

try:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/index.html

carole






From particle at urbanet.ch  Mon Sep 18 13:56:07 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:56:07 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
References: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com> <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com> <39C61D3E.756FD61A@hic.net>
Message-ID: <000001c02182$596302e0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1648

> I did enjoy Heidi's parenting attachment theories that she posted awhile
> back (that the love he received early on from James & Lily would have
> given him some measure of protection and self-worth during his years
> with the Dursleys), but I do think any child who had lived through what
> the Dursleys have done to him (especially since he also has no outside
> friends or family) would be considerably less sociable, moral & centered
> than Harry is.  Harry has no siblings, no friends & no family members
> other than the Dursleys.  His only contact with the outside world is to
> go to school (where he has no friends) or to Mrs. Figg (which he
> dislikes).  Where on earth would he learn to interact socially & what it
> means to make the "right" choices (Ron over Malfoy, etc.)?  He didn't
> even have a library card we're told -- so it's not as though he escaped
> with books & learned about life through reading.

I agree with you on this count, but I thought I'd point out that we know
Harry is quite observant - it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's managed to
glean what he knows about being social and friendship from watching the soap
operas Petunia was staring mindlessly at, or the books they read in school,
or just watching what how the other kids act in school. That still doesn't
explain how he can still be pretty well adjusted, but it does sort of
explain how he can compare Draco to Dudley early on and see his offer for
what it really is.

<It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if he
is actually her brother or half-brother? That would make a little
sense because he said she didn't have to die.  But he had killed a
lot of people so why bother telling her she didn't have to die?
Voldy's mom died during his birth, but what if Lily was born before
Voldy........>

Um, in 1942, Voldemort was in his 5th year, making him 15 or 16, so he was
born back in 1926 or 27 (Hagrid being born in 1929). That would make him 68
years old by GoF...if Lily were his half-sibling, the only possible way
would be if Tom Riddle Sr. had another child somewhere around 30 years or
more after he got Voldie's mother pregnant. And of course, by then, Tom Sr.
would be dead, because we know from GoF chapter 1 that Voldemort killed the
Riddles as a teenager.

<There's been precious little mention of Lily in the books, as compared to
James. I think there's something special about her that's not been covered
yet. I've been wondering why Tom Riddle looked a bit like Harry. There's
some connection there---why did Dumbledore have a flash of triumph in his
eyes after finding out Voldemort had been raised via Harry's blood?>

The rumor mills say that JK Rowling is going to reveal a big secret about
Lily later in the series.

~Firebolt




From shellymoos at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 18 15:18:23 2000
From: shellymoos at hotmail.com (Shelly )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:18:23 -0000
Subject: Witch Movie-sort of OT
Message-ID: <8q5bnv+h2sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1649

Hi all.  Has anyone ever seen the movie "Bell, Book and Candle".  I 
have always loved that movie and even had a cat once named Piewacket. 
It has Jimmy Stewart and Kim Novak in it.  I was watching it this 
morning and noticed some similarities and differences between this 
witch world and Harry's.  Kim Novak is the witch and she gets Jimmy 
Stewart to fall in love with her with a spell.  Of course all this 
comes for naught and everything turns upside down.  The scene where 
she tells him she is a witch made me think of the scene in ASA where 
Siruis has to tell Cordelia.  Kim Novak tells her brother that she is 
renouncing when she agrees to marry Stewart.  I guess in this world 
you can marry a Muggle but have to give up your powers.  And there 
are no wands, she does her magic through her "familiar"  Piewacket.  
He reminds me of Crookshanks.  One very smart cat.  Well have to get 
the kids to school.  If anyone else has seen it let me know if you 
liked it.   Later  Shelly




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 15:20:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:20:26 -0000
Subject: Brother and Sister??
In-Reply-To: <8q55tk+j50o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q5brq+nnf4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1650

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Julie " <tattsbaby at h...> wrote:
> 
> It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if
he 
> is actually her brother or half-brother? That would make a little 
> sense because he said she didn't have to die.  But he had killed a 
> lot of people so why bother telling her she didn't have to die? 
> Voldy's mom died during his birth, but what if Lily was born before 
> Voldy........

This clearly does not work, generation-wise.

Based on NHN's death-day, CoS occurs during 92-93 school year.
CoS being opened exactly 50 years before, means that was the 42-43 
school year (high points of WWII), and Tom Riddle was 16 then IIRC, a 
prefect, a 6th year; and Hagrid, age 13.  That makes Hagrid born 
~1930, Tom born ~1927.  Riddle would have graduated then in 1944, 
dropped out of sight soon after.   We'll return to Riddle below.

We seem to agree that Lily and James were APPROXIMATELY in the same 
year as each other, +/- 2-3 years. Sirius & Lupin chronologically
seem 
to be about in their early 30's in Books III-IV, maybe are really in 
late 30's or early 40's if wizard talent slows aging process or at 
least provides more energy/greater ability of body to hold itself 
together and function at advanced ages.  They are classmates,
probably 
same-year classmates, as James, so he would be around that age. 

At any rate, the NHN death date makes Harry to have turned 11 in July 
1991, making him born 1980, and making parents' death 1981; if
parents 
are in the range of 25-30 when he was born, as opposed to fresh out
of 
school (after all they had time to accumulate considerable wealth, 
based on Gringott's, and we know from JKR hints that (1) their 
occupation will be important, (2) it will explain their wealth
source, 
and (3) eventually be revealed) it is further likely that if Lily was 
around 27-30 or less when Harry was born, they graduated around the 
period 1967-70.  If she graduated around 1967-70 at around age 
seventeen, she was born around 1950-1954.  Thus, unless a time-turner 
was involved, it becomes very difficult for Lily to be Riddle's older 
half-sister - she should instead be about 23-27 years YOUNGER than
he, 
or else James, who should likewise be born around say 1948-1956,  
would be marrying a woman 20 years *older* than he.

-Brooks




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Sep 18 15:25:52 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 08:25:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witch Movie-sort of OT
Message-ID: <20000918152552.29960.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1651

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000918/01c6d35b/attachment.ksh>

From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep 18 18:24:22 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:24:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Order; Snape
Message-ID: <v02140b46b5ec0bcfaed1@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1652


>Aha! Aha! I might have an idea on this. Harry was protected from the Avra
>Kedavra spell because Lily's love was "imprinted" on him.

I've said this before and I'll say it again...I DO NOT buy the whole
"protected by the love" argument.  You cannot tell me that in all the
people Moldy Voldy killed that no one had ever died to protect someone else
before that.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep 18 17:39:02 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:39:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witch Movie-sort of OT
In-Reply-To: <8q5bnv+h2sf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEDLCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1653

I love that film (Bell, Book and Candle)!  I own a copy.  In that film,
witches can't cry, and they lose their powers if they fall in love.  Also
one of the few films to show male witches (Jack Lemmon plays Kim Novak's
brother).  They refer to him as a warlock, although according to the Wiccans
on the list, "warlock" is a derogatory term, no?  I really enjoyed Kim
Novak's "revenge" on Jimmy Stewart's original fiance, who was an old school
enemy of hers.  Very funny and sweet movie, including a priceless scene
where Jimmy Stewart tries to drink a potion to rid himself of Kim's love
enchantment.




======================================================
"I will not be put off by the Hero's rebuffs of my
sensual advances. If he doesn't succumb to me, I will
not fly into a jealous rage. Instead, I'll shrug my
shoulders, send him on his way, and have him picked
off as he exits the fortress."
---Guidelines For Evil Empresses (#8)
======================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Shelly [mailto:shellymoos at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 8:18 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Witch Movie-sort of OT


Hi all.  Has anyone ever seen the movie "Bell, Book and Candle".  I
have always loved that movie and even had a cat once named Piewacket.
It has Jimmy Stewart and Kim Novak in it.  I was watching it this
morning and noticed some similarities and differences between this
witch world and Harry's.  Kim Novak is the witch and she gets Jimmy
Stewart to fall in love with her with a spell.  Of course all this
comes for naught and everything turns upside down.  The scene where
she tells him she is a witch made me think of the scene in ASA where
Siruis has to tell Cordelia.  Kim Novak tells her brother that she is
renouncing when she agrees to marry Stewart.  I guess in this world
you can marry a Muggle but have to give up your powers.  And there
are no wands, she does her magic through her "familiar"  Piewacket.
He reminds me of Crookshanks.  One very smart cat.  Well have to get
the kids to school.  If anyone else has seen it let me know if you
liked it.   Later  Shelly


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From Ina.Franken at frankens.de  Mon Sep 18 18:09:23 2000
From: Ina.Franken at frankens.de (Ina Franken)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:09:23 +0200
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
References: <22.b53b3f6.26f701fe@aol.com> <OE21hZDnrasn3c6xpwW00000bb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39C65A53.D734ADEE@frankens.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1654

Hi,

this is my first post, so I should introduce myself. My name is Ina and
I am from Germany. I discovered the books last year shortly before
Christmas. I was curious because of all the attention they got and
bought the first two and got the third for Christmas. I read them a
"few" times since then. :-)

I have only read the british version and little bits and pieces of the
german translation of book one, because I read it a bit to my nephew.

I don't know that much about child abuse, but I find Harry's situation
very much Cinderella-like. I believe that such abusive situations as
described really exist, but JKR could easily follow the Cinderella
pattern without much experience or research. 

Ina



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep 18 18:45:27 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:45:27 -0000
Subject: well, yes and no. plus, she's a little egomaniacal.
Message-ID: <8q5ns7+86dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1655

No, not JKR : )
A woman named Elizabeth D. Schafer, whose "Exploring Harry Potter" is 
the lead title in a new series called "Beacham's Sourcebooks for 
Teaching Young Adult Fiction."
First, let me suggest that the teachers on this list go right now to 
www.beachampublishing.com The site contains her analysis of Book 
IV, "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," which was published after 
the sourcebook went to press, including a bunch of questions and 
projects which teachers can propose to their classes of all grade 
levels - and they're free. Of course, there's little, if anything, up 
there which I read that hasn't been proposed here already, and I know 
Ebony has come up with questions for her class which are more 
insightful than some of the ones Ms Schafer has proposed, but they're 
not bad. The one proposition which I haven't heard before concerns 
names. SHe hypothesizes that VOLDEMORT may also derive from King 
Vortigern, an overlord who, according to Arthurian legend, arrested 
Merlin when he was a child. 
Second, I'm not going to send the whole article to the list - it's at 
http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/books/pott14.shtml and anyone else who 
wants it, email me. 
Third, does this concept make sense to anyone, or is it just me?
"In the Potter series, magic represents imagination and connection 
with adult mentors who help students achieve maturity and insights 
not available to other children."
I thought it was an energy force! : )
Fourth, I had forgotten, but the article reminded me - Rowling worked 
for Amnesty International in college. This makes it highly likely 
that even without doing extensive book-specific research on abuse, 
she has at least a grounding in abuse/torture issues.


Oh, and my yes, no and egomaniac comments from the subject? 
Yes & No means yes, there are probably some interesting nuggets in 
the book, No, I can't imagine there's much in there which hasn't come 
up on this list at one time or another.
The egomaniac part is because the author of the article says 
that "Schafer said she apparently is the first to notice that Harry's 
tenure at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry begins in 1991, 
which makes him an adult in present time. She bases that conclusion 
on Book II's Halloween Deathday Party to commemorate the 500th 
anniversary of Nearly Headless Nick's semi-beheading in 1492. Schafer 
extrapolates from this and other clues that Harry's birth date is 
July 31, 1980."

Um, personally, I concluded that somewhere around November, 1998. Any 
brits conclude it even earlier than that?

Of course, my believing that ms schafer really said that to the 
article's author may be leading me into the trap that snares rita 
skeeter's readers, so I'll refrain from letting it prevent me from 
buying the book anyway.




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 19:01:03 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:01:03 -0000
Subject: Witch Movie-sort of OT
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEDLCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8q5opf+ksu7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1656

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:

> brother).  They refer to him as a warlock, although according to
the 
Wiccans
> on the list, "warlock" is a derogatory term, no?  

Of course the male witches on "bewitched" are refered to as warlocks 
as well.

Niven attempts to explain the origin of the term in _The Magic Goes 
Away_.  His wizard, who discovered 'mana' could be exhausted, goes by 
the name Warlock - which he started calling himself because being a 
very powerful magician, and an intellectual, he used his powers to 
stop wars in the region where he dwelt.  The real terror of having
the 
magic go away is that when all the magic is used up, there will be 
nobody left to stop the stupid barbarians and their swords and their 
wars, and they will win in the end after all.....

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 18 19:14:00 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:14:00 -0000
Subject: Potions - can Muggles make them?
In-Reply-To: <8q50ap+gkno@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q5pho+jfun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1657

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
wrote:
> I've been wondering about this vaguely for a while, and I would
like 
> to see what other people think about it.  
> 
> What exactly is magical about potions?  Obviously the ingredients 
are 
> not from normal Muggle plants and animals, but if a Muggle had all 
> the ingredients, could he make a potion?  Where does the magic come 
> into potions?  
> 
> I notice that Neville often gets his potions wrong, but this seems 
to 
> be from following the instructions wrongly rather than any innate 
> lack of magic.  I don't really understand how making a potion uses 
> magic.  Can anyone help me?
  

I've wondered about that too, and that is a good observation on 
Neville.  Snape clearly says in his class intro in Book I that wands 
are rarely needed.  

I have a theory that the inherent magic of wizards (as shown by kids 
who can do things even before they get their wands) causes changes in 
(most) potions during their processing & preparation, which MAKES
them 
magical, and functional.  

It is also clear that there are certain plants or animals with magic 
inherent in their being, which muggles do not perceive.  I think that 
MOST potions would not work if made by muggles, UNLESS they happened 
to get hold of some of the ingredient made from magical plants or 
parts of magical animals.  However, I think a couple of Snape's 
examples in Book I, will in fact work in the 'real world' even if not 
to the extent he implies.   I also think they are the "don't try this 
at home" variety!  I am NOT condoning trying to make a sleeping 
draught!  Bezoars are real and have indeed been reputed in folklore
to 
be a proof against poison; there might even be a basis for this, as
it 
is possible that some of the examples are highly absorbent, like 
activated charcoal (which is given as an countermeasure for some 
poisons in the real world). 

 Neville is not entirely a squib, despite what he says: even if his 
magic may work at self-protection and herb lore better than anything 
else.  Thus he may have enough of an 'inherent magic field' that 
potions he brews do still work, when he does it right.  

-Brooks




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Mon Sep 18 19:29:31 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:29:31 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem, and Harry's brand of  Magic
In-Reply-To: <8q42im+t97o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q5qer+l2rn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1658


> Yes, but I don't agree that Harry caused the "reversal."  Harry 
> didn't actually cause the wand to regurgitate spells.  That was an 
> effect of his holding his own in the fight, caused by his magical 
> strength, perhaps, but not caused BY him.  i.e.  because the wands 
> were brothers, it was tough to make them fight each other and that 
is 
> what caused the regurgitation.  Dumbledore specifically stated that 
> the reversal was a rare BUT KNOWN effect caused by the relationship 
> of the wands.  It wasn't caused by harry's will at all.
> 
> I think James died after Lily, and that that may be important in a 
> later book.  NOw why everyone, including apparently Voldemort, 
thinks 
> James died first is a question I don't know the answer to, but it 
> seems more likely to me that Voldemort is either lying or simply 
> wrong, and that James died last.
> 
> Vicki

Thank you Vicki,
    I whole-heartedly agree.  Harry willing a spell to perform in a 
manner counter to it's intent is just not supported by the magical 
universe that JKR has set down or by any precedence.  I put forth a 
theory back on post 1530 that may admittedly have some holes but I 
think you might find interesting if you haven't read it already.  
Anyway, it's good to know I'm not the only one anymore.
                                          Thanks, Brian





From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 18 19:19:09 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:19:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Order; Snape
References: <v02140b46b5ec0bcfaed1@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <39C66AAC.100DA5A4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1659

<spoiler warning, end of book 4 stuff>

summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:

> I've said this before and I'll say it again...I DO NOT buy the whole
> "protected by the love" argument.  You cannot tell me that in all the
> people Moldy Voldy killed that no one had ever died to protect someone else
> before that.

No, no, the whole point was that *Lily* was doing the protecting in this case.
There's no question that others died in defense of their loved ones, and it
yielded them nothing. But I think there's something special about Lily that we
haven't been told yet. In book 1, Dumbledore was clearly not telling Harry
everything, but what he *did* tell him was true---I think she did exactly what
Dumbledore said she did, protected him (*something* did, since Quirrell
couldn't even *touch* him), but I think Dumbledore left out a whole lot about
exactly how, simplified it for Harry. And why was Voldemort so insistent that
it be Harry's blood that revived him? to incorporate/bypass the protection, the
"old magic" that has not been explained?

My new thought had been, now that I've been listening to the whole "death
order" debate, that she might have shielded James just a bit, too. But since
James was not a blood relative, it didn't save him. Harry is of her line; it
was more potent there. And we do not yet know what "it" is.

--Amanda




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Mon Sep 18 20:23:24 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:23:24 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Magical=20Potions?=
Message-ID: <1e.ad84f4a.26f7d3bc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1660


In a message dated 9/18/00 7:15:10 AM, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Potions - can Muggles make them?   writes:


>
>What exactly is magical about potions?  Obviously the ingredients are 
>not from normal Muggle plants and animals, but if a Muggle had all 
>the ingredients, could he make a potion?  Where does the magic come 
>into potions?


Absolutely Muggles can make them; not all the herbalists and flower essence 
practitioners, aromatherapists and homeopaths are magical-I've known several  
Muggle ones....perhaps they were Squibs? Machelle Wright Small of Perelandra 
and the Findhorn folks have written about co-creation, communication with 
Nature Spirits that aid them in the growing of plants and the preparation of 
remedies (read "Potions").  Patricia Kaminisky and Richard Katz have a superb 
Flower Essence Repetory. This summer, I spent over a week in the Sierra 
Nevadas with the founders of the Flower Essence Society and 29 other 
"healers" (medical doctor, acupuncturist, veterinarian, biodynamic farmer, 
chiropractor, psychologist, etc) researching and experiencing the signatures 
of plants and their effects as essences.  (The therapy I do works with Chi 
(Qi) to release trauma and emotions held in the body, so I've been following 
the abuse thread with much interest, as well). The  Flower Essence Training 
began July 9 -My Goblet of Fire arrived-thank you Amazon.com! -in time to be 
read on the plane and ended up going home on-loan with the acupuncturist; I 
knew I had another copy coming from England when I landed back in San 
Diego-gave me much more space in my suitcase to buy out the store - but 
that's another story.

When I make a remedy, there is a level of communication both conceptual and 
energetic with the ingredients that vitalizes and invigorates them.  (I'm 
stretching for English words to describe the sensations and the 
phenomena-there may be a term for it in Chinese or Tibetan- but my vocabulary 
in those languages isn't large enough).  This communication could be 
construed as analagous to magic. It probably follows that the more talented 
the wizard, or alchemist, or witch, the more potent her/his brew. The ingredie
nts themselves, being alive, carry their own chi, or spirit medicine, or 
potency. Where they grow, when they are harvested, HOW they are harvested all 
affect the chi (vitality) and shen (spirit) of the material and thus the 
effectiveness of the final potion. This would be true whether they are 
animal, vegetable or mineral ingredients. It's then understandable why Snape 
keeps his ingredients locked up- probably notjust because they are dangerous 
or rare.  So the fundamentals and techniques of potion making are scientific, 
replicable and can be learned by anyone, even muggles, And are: pharmacies, 
and so forth. However, like music or art, the final result will be affected 
by the interaction (skill/talent/magic) of the practitioner.  Hermione excels 
at potions- she has the technical knowledge as well as a superb magical 
talent (witness her Charms working even before she took her first class).

Aylihael


? We are the ones who chase pixies,
Run with the unicorns, Dance with the faeries,
Sing with the sirens, Soar with the phoenixes,
And swim with the mermaids.
We are the ones who  believe in the Unbelievable.
We are the ones who dare to dream.?
~author unknown



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 20:37:50 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:37:50 -0000
Subject: Timeline
Message-ID: <8q5ueu+ed5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1661

Hi everyone--

For all those interested, Steve has a great HP info page with a very 
comprehensive timeline.  Here's the URL:  
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/
But, for now, in CoS, the image of Tom Riddle Harry sees is sixteen 
years old, and we know that that was fifty years ago.  So, in CoS,  
Vold would be sixty-six years old.  Now, we don't have any solid info 
on James' and Lily's ages, but we know Lupin was 'young' and 
prematurely gray.  And, once Harry sees Sirius cleaned up, he looks 
much the way he did in James' and Lily's wedding picture.  My hunch 
is that JKR made the Marauder generation about her own age-- mid-
thirties or so.  Just a hunch, though.

Kelley 




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Mon Sep 18 21:43:10 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:43:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Order; Snape
Message-ID: <v02140b4bb5ec3cd23298@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1662

>
><spoiler warning, end of book 4 stuff>
>
>summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:
>
>> I've said this before and I'll say it again...I DO NOT buy the whole
>> "protected by the love" argument.  You cannot tell me that in all the
>> people Moldy Voldy killed that no one had ever died to protect someone else
>> before that.
>
>No, no, the whole point was that *Lily* was doing the protecting in this case.
>There's no question that others died in defense of their loved ones, and it
>yielded them nothing. But I think there's something special about Lily that we
>haven't been told yet.

I still think it's something special about *Harry* that we haven't been
told yet.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Mon Sep 18 21:21:25 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:21:25 -0000
Subject: Crabbe and Goyle ??
Message-ID: <8q610l+qrm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1663

Hello,
   I'm pretty sure I'm just imagining things but it occurred to me 
recently that there seems to be something strange around the 
characters of Crabbe and Goyle.  It was after finishing GoF for the 
second time that the Deatheater scene made me think something was up. 
As Voldy is walking around recognizing his minions, he passes two 
people he refers to as Crabbe and Goyle.  The first time I read this, 
I just assumed they were each a parent of Draco's pals.  I guess what 
got me wondering the second time is that Voldy greets them as Crabbe 
and Goyle rather than the Crabbe's and the Goyle's.  Is it reasonable 
that only one parent would follow Voldy and not the other?  Maybe so 
as it appeared that Lucius' wife wasn't there either.  Anyway, I 
thought what if this Crabbe and Goyle were the same as the ones 
attending Hogwarts!  I know, this is a little far-fetched but at the 
time I also realized that I didn't know either of their first names.  
I have since discovered them at the Encyclopaedia Potterica but still 
have not found them in the books.  I imagine the names are there 
somewhere but it still got me thinking could these two be something 
other than they appear.  Well, I know it's pretty hair-brained but I 
haven't been able to get it out of my head.  Any thoughts?

Brian




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 21:49:04 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:49:04 -0000
Subject: Crabbe and Goyle ??
In-Reply-To: <8q610l+qrm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q62kg+rt3s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1664

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:
Is it reasonable 
> that only one parent would follow Voldy and not the other?  Maybe 
so 
> as it appeared that Lucius' wife wasn't there either.  Anyway, I 
> thought what if this Crabbe and Goyle were the same as the ones 
> attending Hogwarts!  I know, this is a little far-fetched but at 
the 
> time I also realized that I didn't know either of their first 
names.  
> Brian

Do you mean the first names of Malfoy's friends?  They're Vincent 
Crabbe and Gregory Goyle.  I figured the ones in the DE chapter are 
the fathers of C & G.  But, you do make an interesting point that the 
mothers don't show up.  Of the DE's we've heard of, there are just a 
few women, aren't there?  Maybe the ones who showed up are considered 
the heads of their own little group, the 'heads' of their 
households?  Hmm.  Interesting...

Kelley




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 22:48:02 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:48:02 -0000
Subject: female Death Eaters
Message-ID: <8q6632+ou7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1665

In that scene in the graveyard at the end of GoF I was imagining all 
the Death Eaters who were standing around Voldemort as men. I think 
the only example we've been given of a female Death Eater would be
the 
wife half of the Lestrange couple that we saw in Dumbledore's 
memories. Perhaps the Death Eaters are a bit of a boys' club. I don't 
really picture Narcissa Malfoy going out and Death Eating (?) with 
Lucius...I think she stays home. It seems the wizarding world is a
bit 
feudal that way, at least for families like the Malfoys.





From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Mon Sep 18 23:12:02 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:12:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q5ns7+86dk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c021c5$db2542a0$af09893e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 1666

Having been lurking for a long time I am emerging from my corner of the UK
to ask for help with something that is puzzling me. I have worked on
creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon etc for the Weasley
family. According to my amateur calculations based on Charlie Weasley being
18 when he left school and that being the year Gryffyndor won the Quidditch
Championship.IIRC (I've lent my copy - stupid) it says in HP & PS circa 1991
it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has won. Therefore Charlie Weasley
must have been born in 1966, with Bill sometime previously. The next Weasley
is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at 18 in PoA 1994 must have been born 1976.

Why the ten year gap in the Weasley family? Were Arthur & Molly estranged
(unlikely IMHO)? Was Arthur away on Ministry business? Did it just not
happen, then Percy was a miracle baby followed by several more? Did they not
want more children because of the rise of Voldemort although this seems
implausible as Percy, Fred, George and Ron would have been born before his
fall.

I am puzzled. Please help put me out of my misery so I can concentrate on
studying for my PGCE which is what I should be doing now. I'm teacher
training and love the work in the classroom but I'm not so keen on the
theory, however necessary.

Heather




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 18 23:18:58 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:18:58 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
Message-ID: <8q67t2+cmqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1667

Okay, here goes--

I think Vold went to kill Harry, not specifically James and Lily, 
probably due to Trelawney's first correct prediction.  J & L were 
killed as a by-product of V wanting to kill H.  They of course tried 
to protect him, so they needed to be eliminated.  I think James was 
cursed by Vold first, but he was able to fend it off, the way Harry 
is able to throw off the Imperius curse, (and perhaps AK, at least 
the first time).  Vold, unaware that James still lived, went on to 
kill Lily, who was trying to protect Harry.  I'm supposing that Lily 
was killed and Vold then throws the curse to kill Harry.  At the same 
time, James throws his own curse.  The two curses colliding(?) are 
what destroys the house.  The house falling in kills James.(?)  So, 
the first curse Vold throws at James doesn't kill him, the curse he 
throws at Lily does kill her, then James is killed by the next 
curse.  So, James is cursed again after Lily (the curse to kill 
Harry) therefore he would come out of the wand before Lily.  I 
believe Lily, who was so good at charms, placed some sort of 
protective/love/"good" charm on Harry, maybe having something to do 
with blood like someone said.  Perhaps this protected Harry, both 
from Vold's curse and the falling house.  This is also what gave 
Harry protection in SS so Vold/Quirrell couldn't touch him, and why 
Vold wanted Harry's blood in GoF.  If James could throw curses the 
way Harry can, this could explain why Moody/Crouch brings up the 
unforgivable curses in the first place.  He wanted to see how they 
affected Harry, at least the Imperius, he obviously couldn't try the 
other two without making Dumble suspicious.  Perhaps he wanted to 
learn if Harry could throw the curses, which could explain why Vold 
still hasn't managed to kill Harry.  Vold still doesn't know all the 
reasons he can't kill Harry.  Crouch Jr. wanted to help discover 
these reasons.   

Okay, I think that's it...tell me what you guys think.

Kelley  




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 18 23:46:19 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:46:19 -0000
Subject: The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <004b01c021c5$db2542a0$af09893e@default>
Message-ID: <8q69gb+erm8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1668

In Book 4, Bill says it's been 5 years since he was at Hogwarts. So 
in Book 4, Bill was at least 23 years old (IF the last time he was at 
Hogwarts was when he was a student)

In Book 3, it was the first time in 7 years that Gryffindor won the 
House Quidditch Cup. So it would have been Bill Weasley would have 
been at least in 4th year at Hogwarts. Since Harry is the youngest 
Quidditch player in 100 years (according to book 1), Charlie Weasley 
had to be at the very least a 2nd year when they won the Quidditch 
Cup. Therefore, Charlie Weasley is at least 2 years younger than Bill.

So the Weasley ages as of Book 4 are
Bill = 23 years old
Charlie = at least 21 years old
Percy =18 to 19 years old
The Twins= 16-17 years old
Ron= 14 years old
Ginny= 13 years old

:-) 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heather Edmonds" <Heather at h...> 
wrote:
> Having been lurking for a long time I am emerging from my corner of 
the UK
> to ask for help with something that is puzzling me. I have worked on
> creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon etc for 
the Weasley
> family. According to my amateur calculations based on Charlie 
Weasley being
> 18 when he left school and that being the year Gryffyndor won the 
Quidditch
> Championship.IIRC (I've lent my copy - stupid) it says in HP & PS 
circa 1991
> it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has won. Therefore Charlie 
Weasley
> must have been born in 1966, with Bill sometime previously. The 
next Weasley
> is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at 18 in PoA 1994 must have been 
born 1976.
> 
> Why the ten year gap in the Weasley family? Were Arthur & Molly 
estranged
> (unlikely IMHO)? Was Arthur away on Ministry business? Did it just 
not
> happen, then Percy was a miracle baby followed by several more? Did 
they not
> want more children because of the rise of Voldemort although this 
seems
> implausible as Percy, Fred, George and Ron would have been born 
before his
> fall.
> 
> I am puzzled. Please help put me out of my misery so I can 
concentrate on
> studying for my PGCE which is what I should be doing now. I'm 
teacher
> training and love the work in the classroom but I'm not so keen on 
the
> theory, however necessary.
> 
> Heather




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 18 23:55:42 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:55:42 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
In-Reply-To: <8q4gmv+rj7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6a1u+a11i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1669

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > Dumbledore was wrong about "Moody" in Book 4. Crouch Jr. was able 
> to 
> > fool Dumbledore the ENTIRE school year.
> 
> Ha!  That's true, I wasn't even thinking about that.  So, would you 
> think this could mean there might be something in James' or Lily's 
> past that he doesn't know about?  It certainly seems possible...
> 
> Kelley

There could be something about James and/or Lily that Dumbledore 
doesn't know about or hasn't told Harry. I have a tendency to think 
the Potters and the McKinnons were killed for a specific reason. The 
McKinnons were mentioned twice (first time in Book 1 by Hagrid and 
the second time in Book 4 by Sirius Black). Maybe Lily and James were 
working on some top secret project??

Milz




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Sep 18 23:55:46 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:55:46 +0100
Subject: Weasley's and that age gap.
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEHICIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1670

"Having been lurking for a long time I am emerging from my corner of the UK
to ask for help with something that is puzzling me."

Welcome, from an already emerged UK person. At the moment I am involved in
the process of writing the FAQ's based on the Yahoo group message archive.
As I have the Weasley FAQ, excluding Ron, to write I should know something
about this.

"I have worked on creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon
etc for the Weasley family. According to my amateur calculations based on
Charlie Weasley being 18 when he left school and that being the year
Gryffyndor won the Quidditch Championship. IIRC (I've lent my copy - stupid)
it says in HP & PS circa 1991 it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has
won. Therefore Charlie Weasley must have been born in 1966, with Bill
sometime previously. The next Weasley is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at 18
in PoA 1994 must have been born 1976.

A couple of corrections are needed in here. In PS (Ch13) it is said that it
is seven years since Gryffindor have won the House Cup. It is in PoA that it
is said that it is seven years since they have won the Quidditch Cup (PoA
Chs12 & 15). This means that the ages of Charlie, and therefore also Bill,
can be reduced by 2 years. This gives the age of Charlie as 26 in GoF
(corresponding to being born in 1968). This corresponds to an age gap of
eight years. These eight years would then be 1968 to 1976.

This period would correspond to the some of the time when Voldemort was
gaining power, but interestingly still leaves Percy, Fred, George and Ron
being born while Voldemort was still gaining power. With Ginny being born
around the time of his downfall.

So did the Weasley's at first only want two kids and then decided to have
more. Or were there a few miscarriages, or other problems, in-between.

"I am puzzled. Please help put me out of my misery so I can concentrate on
studying for my PGCE which is what I should be doing now. I'm teacher
training and love the work in the classroom but I'm not so keen on the
theory, however necessary."

Oh dear - this may not happen. When a discussion starts around here it can
go on and on and then metamorphosis into many other different topics.

Simon (who needs to get back to writing these FAQ's)




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 00:01:08 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:01:08 -0000
Subject: House Elf Magic
Message-ID: <8q6ac4+259t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1671

How powerful are House Elves? Dobby was able to knock Mr. Malfoy down 
the stairs in Book 2 and Malfoy backed off when Dobby waved his 
finger at him. AND Dobby was able to apparate into Hogwarts in Book 2 
(which is something wizards and witches aren't able to do)! Then in 
Book 4, Winky was able to bind Crouch Jr. Also 
they perform magic without a wand.

Are House Elves more powerful than the wizarding folk and that's the 
reason why they are regulated? If they are powerful, then wouldn't it 
make sense for Voldemort to try to get the House Elves on his side?




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 00:03:09 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:03:09 -0000
Subject: alternative theory to my last post
Message-ID: <8q6aft+r5pi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1672

I've been thinking some more, here's a slight alternative to my last 
theory:

Harry is Vold's primary target.  Instead of Vold trying to kill 
James, he throws the cruciatus curse at him to get him out of the 
way.  James is unable to throw this one, same as Harry.  Vold offers 
to spare Lily's life if she'll surrender Harry, she refuses, he kills 
her.  When he curses Harry, whatever Harry's special power is 
rebounds the curse on Vold, and the force of this destroys the house, 
killing James.  Still the same, James gets hit by this third curse.  
Perhaps the fact that they are in Godric's Hollow at the time (and 
Harry is Gryff's descendant--the Heir of Gryffindor?) is what gives 
Harry this 'special power' that saves him and rebounds the curse onto 
Vold.-- the Heir of Slyth. and Gryff's enemy.

How about that?

Kelley  




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 00:16:59 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:16:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q69gb+erm8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6B07B.8ABADABB@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1673

Hi:

milz wrote:

> In Book 4, Bill says it's been 5 years since he was at Hogwarts. So
> in Book 4, Bill was at least 23 years old (IF the last time he was at
> Hogwarts was when he was a student)

I think he's been there since he was a student because I think he's more
like 25-27 in GoF.

> In Book 3, it was the first time in 7 years that Gryffindor won the
> House Quidditch Cup.

This then means Charlie has been gone 4 yrs by the start of SS at a
minimum.  So, he's 5 yrs out of Hogwarts in GoF, which makes him at
least 22, maybe 23 (if he left Hogwarts when 17 or 18).  That makes Bill
24-25 & possibly a bit older even.

> Since Harry is the youngest Quidditch player in 100 years (according
> to book 1), Charlie Weasley had to be at the very least a 2nd year
> when they won the Quidditch Cup.

I'm not sure if that matters -- his winning it as a 2nd year that is.  I
have the impression that Charlie gave Gryffindor the Quidditch Cup
several years running, and the *last* time they won it before PoA was
Charlie's final year at Hogwarts.

> Therefore, Charlie Weasley is at least 2 years younger than Bill.

I wasn't sure how you got there logically.  Oh, you're basing that on
the fact that Bill said he hadn't been at Hogwarts in 5 yrs.  I still
think he came to some alumni event most likely.

The Weasley ages are puzzling though.  I do think there's a fairly
sizeable gap between Charlie & Percy, when you consider how the younger
5 children are spaced.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 00:14:19 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:19 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q67t2+cmqa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6b4r+9mai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1674

Wow! I am amazed.  This is one of the most interesting theories I 
have ever heard, and the only convincing "James was cursed before 
Lily but died after" theory I've seen yet.  The only hole I can find 
is that Avada Kedavra kills instantly and cannot be blocked, so I 
still don't see how James was "able to fend it off" when Voldy cursed 
him the first time.  I guess it is possible that Voldy used something 
else, but I can't hazard a guess as to what or why.
I still tend to think that Harry himself somehow caused the change in 
the Priori Incantetem order, but I have to admit that the alternate 
explanation that Lily actually died first is just as possible.
I had been wondering what motive Crouch could have had for putting 
the Imperius Curse on Harry, since it would just prepare him to face 
it in the future and make him stronger.  But your idea that he was 
testing Harry is a very good and satisfying one.

P.S.  I think from what I've been reading that some people are 
assuming that "Steve's Lexicon" is somehow connected to me.  It 
isn't.  Just wanted to set the record straight.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Okay, here goes--
> 
> I think Vold went to kill Harry, not specifically James and Lily, 
> probably due to Trelawney's first correct prediction.  J & L were 
> killed as a by-product of V wanting to kill H.  They of course 
tried 
> to protect him, so they needed to be eliminated.  I think James was 
> cursed by Vold first, but he was able to fend it off, the way Harry 
> is able to throw off the Imperius curse, (and perhaps AK, at least 
> the first time).  Vold, unaware that James still lived, went on to 
> kill Lily, who was trying to protect Harry.  I'm supposing that 
Lily 
> was killed and Vold then throws the curse to kill Harry.  At the 
same 
> time, James throws his own curse.  The two curses colliding(?) are 
> what destroys the house.  The house falling in kills James.(?)  So, 
> the first curse Vold throws at James doesn't kill him, the curse he 
> throws at Lily does kill her, then James is killed by the next 
> curse.  So, James is cursed again after Lily (the curse to kill 
> Harry) therefore he would come out of the wand before Lily.  I 
> believe Lily, who was so good at charms, placed some sort of 
> protective/love/"good" charm on Harry, maybe having something to do 
> with blood like someone said.  Perhaps this protected Harry, both 
> from Vold's curse and the falling house.  This is also what gave 
> Harry protection in SS so Vold/Quirrell couldn't touch him, and why 
> Vold wanted Harry's blood in GoF.  If James could throw curses the 
> way Harry can, this could explain why Moody/Crouch brings up the 
> unforgivable curses in the first place.  He wanted to see how they 
> affected Harry, at least the Imperius, he obviously couldn't try 
the 
> other two without making Dumble suspicious.  Perhaps he wanted to 
> learn if Harry could throw the curses, which could explain why Vold 
> still hasn't managed to kill Harry.  Vold still doesn't know all 
the 
> reasons he can't kill Harry.  Crouch Jr. wanted to help discover 
> these reasons.   
> 
> Okay, I think that's it...tell me what you guys think.
> 
> Kelley




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 00:20:12 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:20:12 -0000
Subject: The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <39C6B07B.8ABADABB@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8q6bfs+nv5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1675

Harry being the youngest Quiddtich player in the last 100 years is 
very important because first years aren't generally allowed to be on 
the Quidditch teams. So, Charlie HAD to have been at least a second 
year when he began playing on the team.

Bill is the eldest Weasley son. Charlie is the second eldest. So if 
the last time Bill was at Hogwarts was when he was a student (17-18 
years old) and if that was "five years ago", then Bill would be 22-23 
in Book 4.

In Book 3, Bill would have been 21-22 years old AND the last time 
Gryffindor won the House Quidditch Cup was 7 years ago. So Bill would 
have been 14 to 15 years old when the Quidditch Cup was won (21-22 - 
7 years = 14-15 years). Since Charlie had to be at least in his 
second year to be eligible to play on the Quidditch Team, Charlie HAS 
to be at the most 2 years younger than Bill.

But you're right it is very confusing. I guess in the non-Muggle 
world after going through a school like Hogwarts, one is prepared for 
the job world.

Milz
 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> milz wrote:
> 
> > In Book 4, Bill says it's been 5 years since he was at Hogwarts. 
So
> > in Book 4, Bill was at least 23 years old (IF the last time he 
was at
> > Hogwarts was when he was a student)
> 
> I think he's been there since he was a student because I think he's 
more
> like 25-27 in GoF.
> 
> > In Book 3, it was the first time in 7 years that Gryffindor won 
the
> > House Quidditch Cup.
> 
> This then means Charlie has been gone 4 yrs by the start of SS at a
> minimum.  So, he's 5 yrs out of Hogwarts in GoF, which makes him at
> least 22, maybe 23 (if he left Hogwarts when 17 or 18).  That makes 
Bill
> 24-25 & possibly a bit older even.
> 
> > Since Harry is the youngest Quidditch player in 100 years 
(according
> > to book 1), Charlie Weasley had to be at the very least a 2nd year
> > when they won the Quidditch Cup.
> 
> I'm not sure if that matters -- his winning it as a 2nd year that 
is.  I
> have the impression that Charlie gave Gryffindor the Quidditch Cup
> several years running, and the *last* time they won it before PoA 
was
> Charlie's final year at Hogwarts.
> 
> > Therefore, Charlie Weasley is at least 2 years younger than Bill.
> 
> I wasn't sure how you got there logically.  Oh, you're basing that 
on
> the fact that Bill said he hadn't been at Hogwarts in 5 yrs.  I 
still
> think he came to some alumni event most likely.
> 
> The Weasley ages are puzzling though.  I do think there's a fairly
> sizeable gap between Charlie & Percy, when you consider how the 
younger
> 5 children are spaced.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 00:28:52 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:28:52 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order
In-Reply-To: <8q6aft+r5pi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6c04+9i6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1676

Okay, that explains my objection in my previous post.  Still, it is 
tough to believe that Voldy wouldn't take the path of least 
resistance and just *kill* James to get him out of the way.  I don't 
think it's beyond Voldy to cause a little pointless suffering, but if 
his primary goal was Harry, he should have gotten *everyone* that 
stood between him and Harry out of the way as completely as possible; 
i.e. he shouldn't have put James in any position that he could 
possibly recover from and screw Voldy up at an inopportune time.
Then again, if the reason Voldy was after Harry was because he was 
Gryffindor's heir (which I believe was part of the reason), Harry 
wouldn't have been Voldy's only primary target.  If Harry was a 
descendent of Gryffindor, either James (or, less likely but still 
possible, Lily) would have to be a descendent of Gryffindor, too, 
which would mean that Voldy would be after him (or her) as well.
Didn't someone a while ago bring up the possibility that the shade 
that came from Voldy's wand that Harry thought was James wasn't James 
at all but Harry himself?  So that phantom would actually represent 
the failed spell that attempted to kill Harry, while the next one was 
the spell that killed Lily, and James never actually got to appear at 
all.  I don't have a clue at the moment as to why the Harry phantom 
would be in the form of an adult, though.  Still, I think this has as 
much potential as the other two main theories for explaining the 
order the phantoms came out of the wand.
 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> I've been thinking some more, here's a slight alternative to my 
last 
> theory:
> 
> Harry is Vold's primary target.  Instead of Vold trying to kill 
> James, he throws the cruciatus curse at him to get him out of the 
> way.  James is unable to throw this one, same as Harry.  Vold 
offers 
> to spare Lily's life if she'll surrender Harry, she refuses, he 
kills 
> her.  When he curses Harry, whatever Harry's special power is 
> rebounds the curse on Vold, and the force of this destroys the 
house, 
> killing James.  Still the same, James gets hit by this third 
curse.  
> Perhaps the fact that they are in Godric's Hollow at the time (and 
> Harry is Gryff's descendant--the Heir of Gryffindor?) is what gives 
> Harry this 'special power' that saves him and rebounds the curse 
onto 
> Vold.-- the Heir of Slyth. and Gryff's enemy.
> 
> How about that?
> 
> Kelley




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 00:34:55 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:34:55 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order
In-Reply-To: <8q6c04+9i6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6cbf+hck1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1677

Good points from everyone. But I have my own spin on that "JAmes " 
shadow...I sort of think it was Tom Marvolo Riddle. 

Hagrid alluded that V. wasn't human anymore. And Dumbledore said that 
Tom Riddle underwent so many transformations to become V. that people 
forgot he was Tom M. Riddle. So what if the Avada Kedavra bounced off 
Harry, hit V. and killed V.'s human part...Tom Marvolo Riddle?

After all in Book 2., Harry said that Tom M. Riddle looked like 
him..dark hair, thin, etc.

Milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> Okay, that explains my objection in my previous post.  Still, it is 
> tough to believe that Voldy wouldn't take the path of least 
> resistance and just *kill* James to get him out of the way.  I 
don't 
> think it's beyond Voldy to cause a little pointless suffering, but 
if 
> his primary goal was Harry, he should have gotten *everyone* that 
> stood between him and Harry out of the way as completely as 
possible; 
> i.e. he shouldn't have put James in any position that he could 
> possibly recover from and screw Voldy up at an inopportune time.
> Then again, if the reason Voldy was after Harry was because he was 
> Gryffindor's heir (which I believe was part of the reason), Harry 
> wouldn't have been Voldy's only primary target.  If Harry was a 
> descendent of Gryffindor, either James (or, less likely but still 
> possible, Lily) would have to be a descendent of Gryffindor, too, 
> which would mean that Voldy would be after him (or her) as well.
> Didn't someone a while ago bring up the possibility that the shade 
> that came from Voldy's wand that Harry thought was James wasn't 
James 
> at all but Harry himself?  So that phantom would actually represent 
> the failed spell that attempted to kill Harry, while the next one 
was 
> the spell that killed Lily, and James never actually got to appear 
at 
> all.  I don't have a clue at the moment as to why the Harry phantom 
> would be in the form of an adult, though.  Still, I think this has 
as 
> much potential as the other two main theories for explaining the 
> order the phantoms came out of the wand.
>  
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> 
wrote:
> > I've been thinking some more, here's a slight alternative to my 
> last 
> > theory:
> > 
> > Harry is Vold's primary target.  Instead of Vold trying to kill 
> > James, he throws the cruciatus curse at him to get him out of the 
> > way.  James is unable to throw this one, same as Harry.  Vold 
> offers 
> > to spare Lily's life if she'll surrender Harry, she refuses, he 
> kills 
> > her.  When he curses Harry, whatever Harry's special power is 
> > rebounds the curse on Vold, and the force of this destroys the 
> house, 
> > killing James.  Still the same, James gets hit by this third 
> curse.  
> > Perhaps the fact that they are in Godric's Hollow at the time 
(and 
> > Harry is Gryff's descendant--the Heir of Gryffindor?) is what 
gives 
> > Harry this 'special power' that saves him and rebounds the curse 
> onto 
> > Vold.-- the Heir of Slyth. and Gryff's enemy.
> > 
> > How about that?
> > 
> > Kelley




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 00:38:24 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:38:24 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys' abusive behaviour
In-Reply-To: <39C65A53.D734ADEE@frankens.de>
Message-ID: <8q6ci0+g4qn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1678

Hi!

Without a doubt, the Dursleys neglect and emotionally abuse Harry.
It's pretty sad if you think about it. And it's pretty sad that there 
are real children in similar family environments.

-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Ina Franken <Ina.Franken at f...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> this is my first post, so I should introduce myself. My name is Ina 
and
> I am from Germany. I discovered the books last year shortly before
> Christmas. I was curious because of all the attention they got and
> bought the first two and got the third for Christmas. I read them a
> "few" times since then. :-)
> 
> I have only read the british version and little bits and pieces of 
the
> german translation of book one, because I read it a bit to my 
nephew.
> 
> I don't know that much about child abuse, but I find Harry's 
situation
> very much Cinderella-like. I believe that such abusive situations as
> described really exist, but JKR could easily follow the Cinderella
> pattern without much experience or research. 
> 
> Ina




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 00:43:56 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:43:56 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q6b4r+9mai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6csc+pk7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1679

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> Wow! I am amazed.  This is one of the most interesting theories I 
> have ever heard, and the only convincing "James was cursed before 
> Lily but died after" theory I've seen yet. 

Wow, thanks Steve!

 The only hole I can find 
> is that Avada Kedavra kills instantly and cannot be blocked, so I 
> still don't see how James was "able to fend it off" when Voldy 
cursed 
> him the first time.  I guess it is possible that Voldy used 
something 
> else, but I can't hazard a guess as to what or why.

Yeah, I think you're right.  But, I was thinking about when Moody 
tells the class that the only person to ever survive it was Harry, and
(I thought) that perhaps James was able to do this also, though 
whatever happened when Vold tried and failed to curse (kill) Harry, 
killed James instead.  Did that make sense? <g>

> I still tend to think that Harry himself somehow caused the change 
in 
> the Priori Incantetem order, but I have to admit that the alternate 
> explanation that Lily actually died first is just as possible.

I was going by this also, but Penny (I think, I'm sorry if I'm wrong) 
pointed out that Harry's wand forced Vold's to regurgitate the last 
~spells~ it performed, not the order in which his victims died.  So, 
there is a possibility that James was cursed again after Lily.  Does 
Vold specifically say that James died ~before~ Lily though?   Because 
that would blow my theory out of the water, if it's true... 

> I had been wondering what motive Crouch could have had for putting 
> the Imperius Curse on Harry, since it would just prepare him to 
face 
> it in the future and make him stronger.  But your idea that he was 
> testing Harry is a very good and satisfying one.

Thanks, again.

Kelley






From hagrid at hagridshut.com  Tue Sep 19 01:17:43 2000
From: hagrid at hagridshut.com (Hagrid Rubeus)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:17:43 -0400
Subject: Welcome to HPforGrownups 
References: <969281824.14977@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c021d7$6a4eac80$d83bfea9@shift>

No: HPFGUIDX 1680


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "HPforGrownups Moderator" <HPforGrownups-owner at egroups.com>
To: <hagrid at hagridshut.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 8:57 AM
Subject: Welcome to HPforGrownups 


> 
> Hello,
> 
> Welcome to the HPforGrownups group at eGroups, a 
> free, easy-to-use email group service.  Please 
> take a moment to review this message.
> 
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> simply send email to 
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> 
> Regards,
> 
> Moderator, HPforGrownups
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 19 01:18:49 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:18:49 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q5ns7+86dk@eGroups.com> <004b01c021c5$db2542a0$af09893e@default>
Message-ID: <39C6BEF9.39AA7E48@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1681



Heather Edmonds wrote:

> I have worked on
> creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon etc for the Weasley
> family. According to my amateur calculations based on Charlie Weasley being
> 18 when he left school and that being the year Gryffyndor won the Quidditch
> Championship.IIRC (I've lent my copy - stupid) it says in HP & PS circa 1991
> it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has won. Therefore Charlie Weasley
> must have been born in 1966, with Bill sometime previously. The next Weasley
> is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at 18 in PoA 1994 must have been born 1976.

I'm no help on answering the question, but it does give me an opening for a
pondering of my own.
Assuming that the Marauders generation (James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail,
etc.) would be, during the time frame of the books (those alive, at least)
somewhere in their 30's, why didn't Bill (who was probably born somewhere in
1965/64ish) say something in Book 4 like "I was a first year when your dad (or
mum) was head boy (or girl)" - I mean, look at the math - and make a few
assumptions. Assuming Bill is 3 grades ahead of Charlie, if Sirius & Lupin were
anything below 35 or so in 1994 (when book 4 took place) (which would mean that
James (and possibly lily as well) were 20 when Harry was born, and 2 years out
of school) AND assuming that Bill started at Hogwarts at 11 (the normal time to
do so) then Bill would've been a very young student when the Marauders were
6/7th years.
IMHO, this is pretty good evidence that James & Lily were a little older than
"just out of school" when Harry was born, and that Remus & Sirius are more
likely in their late 30's or even early 40s.
Or I made a subtraction error, which is entirely possible!




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 01:33:18 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:33:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q6bfs+nv5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6C25E.192F025A@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1682

Hi --

milz wrote:

> Harry being the youngest Quiddtich player in the last 100 years is
> very important because first years aren't generally allowed to be on
> the Quidditch teams. So, Charlie HAD to have been at least a second
> year when he began playing on the team.

I agree with that much.  <g>

> Bill is the eldest Weasley son. Charlie is the second eldest. So if
> the last time Bill was at Hogwarts was when he was a student (17-18
> years old) and if that was "five years ago", then Bill would be 22-23
> in Book 4.

This is where we start to diverge I think.  I don't think it's wise to
assume that Bill *must* have been a student when he was there 5 yrs
earlier.  In fact, that *can't* work now that I think about it more.  If
he was there as a *student* 5 yrs before GoF, that's *one* year prior to
SS (PS).  That doesn't work because Charlie is said to be younger than
Bill.  So, Charlie would have still been at Hogwarts in SS if Bill had
only been gone one year.  Let's see . . . . 5 yrs prior to spring of GoF
(1995) is 1990.  So, if Bill left Hogwarts in 1990, Charlie could
theoretically have left in the spring of 1991, with Ron & Harry starting
Hogwarts in the fall of 1991.

*But,* that sure doesn't square with the chronology of Gryffindor not
having won the Quidditch Cup in 7 yrs (which is since Charlie left).

I also think that it's not wise to think that Bill must have been a
student when he was last at Hogwarts (5 yrs prior to GoF) since he's
obviously there as an alumnus in GoF.  So, if 5 yrs after GoF, he goes
back & comments "I haven't seen this place in 5 yrs," it would surely be
a mistake to assume he'd last been a student in 1995 when he was there
for the 3rd Task.  See what I mean?

> In Book 3, Bill would have been 21-22 years old AND the last time
> Gryffindor won the House Quidditch Cup was 7 years ago. So Bill would
> have been 14 to 15 years old when the Quidditch Cup was won (21-22 -
> 7 years = 14-15 years). Since Charlie had to be at least in his
> second year to be eligible to play on the Quidditch Team, Charlie HAS
> to be at the most 2 years younger than Bill.

So, under this logic, Charlie helped them win the Quidditch Cup as a 2nd
or 3rd year, but then didn't win the Quidditch Cup for his last 4-5 yrs
at Hogwarts.  This doesn't make much sense to me, considering that it's
said in several places that they haven't won the Quidditch Cup since
Charlie left, which surely implies very strongly that they last won the
Cup during his *final* year at Hogwarts.  If he was only good enough to
help them win the Cup that one year, then why is he touted as such a
great Quidditch player, a player who could have played for England if he
hadn't gone off chasing dragons?  I think this means that they last won
the Cup in 1987, which was Charlie's 7th year at Hogwarts.  This makes
him about 24-25 in GoF.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 01:35:31 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:35:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
References: <8q6cbf+hck1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6C2E3.F5A4B627@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1683

Hi:

milz wrote:

> Good points from everyone. But I have my own spin on that "JAmes "
> shadow...I sort of think it was Tom Marvolo Riddle.
>
> Hagrid alluded that V. wasn't human anymore. And Dumbledore said that
> Tom Riddle underwent so many transformations to become V. that people
> forgot he was Tom M. Riddle. So what if the Avada Kedavra bounced off
> Harry, hit V. and killed V.'s human part...Tom Marvolo Riddle?

Hmmmm . . . yeah, but Harry has seen his father in the Mirror of Erised
and in the pictures that Hagrid collected for him.  He's also seen Tom
Riddle Jr. in the Chamber of Secrets.  It would seem to me that he'd
know the difference.  Also, why would Tom Riddle's shadow seek to help
Harry?  Interesting theory though.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 01:48:27 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:48:27 -0000
Subject: anti Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <8q4hu2+afkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6glb+c3km@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1684

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> > I know Jehovah's Witnesses also do not celebrate birthdays, and as
> Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth, this is another 
> reason they don't celebrate it.  Something about, in the bible, 
every time there was some celebration for a birthday, something bad 
would happen, and this was a sign from God that birthdays should not 
be celebrated.  That's the gist of it, anyway. 

Hi Kelley and all:

I was Jehovah's Witness for four years growing up (the exact grades 
of middle school I'm now teaching, come to think of it), and there's 
a lot more behind the prohibition of certain celebrations than that.  
Basically it all boils down to the fact that JW's object to the pagan 
origins of the holidays in question (i.e. secular Christmas 
corresponds to Saturnalia; the only birthday celebration in the Bible 
involved John the Baptizer's head being sliced off and presented on a 
platter).

I reserve comment on these issues, as I and my family am no longer 
affiliated with the Watchtower.  I do realize that this is a 
potentially touchy subject.  Just wanted to clarify the above a bit.  
And no, JWs wouldn't consider Harry Potter their cup of tea.

--Ebony




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 02:05:56 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:05:56 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order
In-Reply-To: <8q6c04+9i6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6hm4+5q8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1685

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> Okay, that explains my objection in my previous post.  Still, it is 
> tough to believe that Voldy wouldn't take the path of least 
> resistance and just *kill* James to get him out of the way.  I 
don't 
> think it's beyond Voldy to cause a little pointless suffering, but 
if 
> his primary goal was Harry, he should have gotten *everyone* that 
> stood between him and Harry out of the way as completely as 
possible; 
> i.e. he shouldn't have put James in any position that he could 
> possibly recover from and screw Voldy up at an inopportune time.

Yes, I see exactly what you mean.  Logically, I can't think of any 
reason Vold wouldn't just kill James to just get him out of the 
way.  Maybe that would seem too anti-climactic?  I don't know... 

> Then again, if the reason Voldy was after Harry was because he was 
> Gryffindor's heir (which I believe was part of the reason), Harry 
> wouldn't have been Voldy's only primary target.  If Harry was a 
> descendent of Gryffindor, either James (or, less likely but still 
> possible, Lily) would have to be a descendent of Gryffindor, too, 
> which would mean that Voldy would be after him (or her) as well.

Right.  Well, maybe Trelawney's first correct prediction was that 
Harry would be Vold's downfall.  Lily and James kind of wouldn't 
matter in this scenario.  (Only that they would try to prevent Vold 
from killing Harry.  Which brings us back to 'Why didn't he kill 
James right at the start?'  Oy.)  

> Didn't someone a while ago bring up the possibility that the shade 
> that came from Voldy's wand that Harry thought was James wasn't 
James 
> at all but Harry himself?  So that phantom would actually represent 
> the failed spell that attempted to kill Harry, while the next one 
was 
> the spell that killed Lily, and James never actually got to appear 
at 
> all.  I don't have a clue at the moment as to why the Harry phantom 
> would be in the form of an adult, though.  Still, I think this has 
as 
> much potential as the other two main theories for explaining the 
> order the phantoms came out of the wand.

Well, maybe, but Harry "looked back into the ghostley face of his 
father."  Who then tells him his mother's coming, she wants to see 
him.  Sounds like it really is James to me.  And, if Harry ~makes~ 
James come out first, why?  Look back at what James says to Harry 
when he comes out of the wand, and at what Lily says.  If you reverse 
what they say to Harry, e.g.-- "Your father wants to see you," etc., 
it doesn't really seem to make any difference.  When James comes out 
of the wand, and Harry realizes who it is, the book says "the man 
appearing was the one he thought of more than any other tonight."  If 
Harry's most vivid images (from the Dementors) are of his mother 
screaming/being killed, why wouldn't she be more on his mind than his 
father?  All he 'hears' is James yelling "Take Harry and run," or 
something like that.  Why was he thinking of James more than Lily 
that night?

Kelley 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 02:06:16 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:06:16 -0000
Subject: Ron's Birthday (was: The gap in the Weasley family)
In-Reply-To: <8q69gb+erm8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6hmo+rnkd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1686

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> So the Weasley ages as of Book 4 are
> Bill = 23 years old
> Charlie = at least 21 years old
> Percy =18 to 19 years old
> The Twins= 16-17 years old
> Ron= 14 years old
> Ginny= 13 years old

Speaking of JWs and No Birthdays Allowed:

What month was Ron born in?  We've seen several other characters 
mention their birthdays: Harry, Nearly Headless Nick (OK, his 
deathday--still important IMO :)), and Hermione.  Any theories about 
when Ron was born?  And if it isn't in early July, how come we've 
never heard any mention of it being celebrated or acknowledged?

I think Ron was born in March or early May myself, for some reason.  
I'm not into astrology, but there's something about those March/May 
folks I've known that reminds me of him.

Sidebar:  This is why Ron needs to be onstage more in Books 5-6, 
perhaps even having a subplot of his own.  Hermione's had at least 
two that echoed into the main plot (the Time-Turner and S.P.E.W.), 
and all we know about the inner workings of Ronald Weasley is that 
he's a wizarding chess wiz, a great friend, sarcastic yet funny, and 
kind of insecure due to the nature of sib order.  The kid needs his 
chance to shine so that the Triad will be more balanced.

--Ebony





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 02:11:44 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:11:44 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve 
Message-ID: <8q6i10+ghn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1687

I'm not sure if this is a FAQ or not, but I just finished listening 
to the chapter on the Pensieve and was fascinated by something.  

Don't have the text of GoF in front of me, but from what I remember 
at the end of the chapter Harry's face changed into Snape's in the 
Pensieve.  Then Dumbledore says something to the effect of "a 
connection I could have made without assistance."  Remember one of 
the stated purposes of the Pensieve is so that the user/owner can 
study patterns and connections between events.  

I wonder if this has any significance.  I am almost positive it has 
been mentioned by someone here who is much more detail-oriented than 
I am.

--Ebony




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep 19 02:15:49 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:15:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <39C6BEF9.39AA7E48@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEEECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1688

It's possible that there WERE children born in the gap between Charlie and
Percy, but they died young.  It could be something the parent Weasleys
prefer not to discuss because it is too painful.




======================================================
"I will not be put off by the Hero's rebuffs of my
sensual advances. If he doesn't succumb to me, I will
not fly into a jealous rage. Instead, I'll shrug my
shoulders, send him on his way, and have him picked
off as he exits the fortress."
---Guidelines For Evil Empresses (#8)
======================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: heidi [mailto:heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 6:19 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The gap in the Weasley family





Heather Edmonds wrote:

> I have worked on
> creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon etc for the
Weasley
> family. According to my amateur calculations based on Charlie Weasley
being
> 18 when he left school and that being the year Gryffyndor won the
Quidditch
> Championship.IIRC (I've lent my copy - stupid) it says in HP & PS circa
1991
> it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has won. Therefore Charlie
Weasley
> must have been born in 1966, with Bill sometime previously. The next
Weasley
> is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at 18 in PoA 1994 must have been born
1976.

I'm no help on answering the question, but it does give me an opening for a
pondering of my own.
Assuming that the Marauders generation (James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin,
Wormtail,
etc.) would be, during the time frame of the books (those alive, at least)
somewhere in their 30's, why didn't Bill (who was probably born somewhere in
1965/64ish) say something in Book 4 like "I was a first year when your dad
(or
mum) was head boy (or girl)" - I mean, look at the math - and make a few
assumptions. Assuming Bill is 3 grades ahead of Charlie, if Sirius & Lupin
were
anything below 35 or so in 1994 (when book 4 took place) (which would mean
that
James (and possibly lily as well) were 20 when Harry was born, and 2 years
out
of school) AND assuming that Bill started at Hogwarts at 11 (the normal time
to
do so) then Bill would've been a very young student when the Marauders were
6/7th years.
IMHO, this is pretty good evidence that James & Lily were a little older
than
"just out of school" when Harry was born, and that Remus & Sirius are more
likely in their late 30's or even early 40s.
Or I made a subtraction error, which is entirely possible!


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From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 02:16:19 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:16:19 -0000
Subject: Crabbe and Goyle ??
In-Reply-To: <8q610l+qrm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6i9j+9d61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1689

 
> I thought what if this Crabbe and Goyle were the same as the ones 
> attending Hogwarts!  

The students Crabbe and Goyle can't possibly be the Death Eaters 
Crabbe and Goyle because, in order to get to Voldemort, they would 
have had to Apparate to him... and it's impossible to Apparate or 
Disapparate within Hogwarts. Unless they weren't at Hogwarts that 
night, which is unlikely, because they would have been watching the 
Third Task (probably to see if Harry lost!)




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep 19 02:21:54 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:21:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q67t2+cmqa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEEFCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1690

>>>>The house falling in kills James.(?) <<<<<

I've always wondered why the destruction of the house did not harm Harry.
All he has to show for being cursed and blown up, is a scar on his forehead.
Lily's body MAY have been covering  him after she was dead, but then
wouldn't Lord V have pushed it aside to get to Harry?



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelley [mailto:SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com]
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 4:19 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My theory on Priori Incantatem



Okay, here goes--

I think Vold went to kill Harry, not specifically James and Lily,
probably due to Trelawney's first correct prediction.  J & L were
killed as a by-product of V wanting to kill H.  They of course tried
to protect him, so they needed to be eliminated.  I think James was
cursed by Vold first, but he was able to fend it off, the way Harry
is able to throw off the Imperius curse, (and perhaps AK, at least
the first time).  Vold, unaware that James still lived, went on to
kill Lily, who was trying to protect Harry.  I'm supposing that Lily
was killed and Vold then throws the curse to kill Harry.  At the same
time, James throws his own curse.  The two curses colliding(?) are
what destroys the house.  The house falling in kills James.(?)  So,
the first curse Vold throws at James doesn't kill him, the curse he
throws at Lily does kill her, then James is killed by the next
curse.  So, James is cursed again after Lily (the curse to kill
Harry) therefore he would come out of the wand before Lily.  I
believe Lily, who was so good at charms, placed some sort of
protective/love/"good" charm on Harry, maybe having something to do
with blood like someone said.  Perhaps this protected Harry, both
from Vold's curse and the falling house.  This is also what gave
Harry protection in SS so Vold/Quirrell couldn't touch him, and why
Vold wanted Harry's blood in GoF.  If James could throw curses the
way Harry can, this could explain why Moody/Crouch brings up the
unforgivable curses in the first place.  He wanted to see how they
affected Harry, at least the Imperius, he obviously couldn't try the
other two without making Dumble suspicious.  Perhaps he wanted to
learn if Harry could throw the curses, which could explain why Vold
still hasn't managed to kill Harry.  Vold still doesn't know all the
reasons he can't kill Harry.  Crouch Jr. wanted to help discover
these reasons.

Okay, I think that's it...tell me what you guys think.

Kelley


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From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 02:38:40 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:38:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
References: <8q6hm4+5q8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D1B0.6A07571B@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1691

Hi --

Kelley wrote:

> Well, maybe, but Harry "looked back into the ghostley face of his
> father."  Who then tells him his mother's coming, she wants to see
> him.  Sounds like it really is James to me.  And, if Harry ~makes~
> James come out first, why?  Look back at what James says to Harry
> when he comes out of the wand, and at what Lily says.  If you reverse
> what they say to Harry, e.g.-- "Your father wants to see you," etc.,
> it doesn't really seem to make any difference.  When James comes out
> of the wand, and Harry realizes who it is, the book says "the man
> appearing was the one he thought of more than any other tonight."  If
> Harry's most vivid images (from the Dementors) are of his mother
> screaming/being killed, why wouldn't she be more on his mind than his
> father?  All he 'hears' is James yelling "Take Harry and run," or
> something like that.  Why was he thinking of James more than Lily
> that night?

I think he feels a closer connection to his father in many ways (perhaps
partly because Harry has learned more about his father & father's
friends than he has about his mum).  His Patronus is a very strong
example of his emotional connection with his father.  In PoA, he seems
especially keen to see his father.  He is said to look exactly like his
father.   Also, when he hears his father's voice in the Dementor
Memories, this moves him to tears.  He hadn't cried earlier when hearing
his mother's pleading screams.

Voldemort had just been taunting him with how his father had faced
Voldemort bravely, and Harry had just been thinking that he wasn't going
to die crouching behind a tombstone but rather standing upright & brave
as his father had.  So . . . . it doesn't seem strange to me that his
father was more on his mind then.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 02:45:20 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:45:20 -0500
Subject: Ron's Birthday 
References: <8q6hmo+rnkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D340.91F97CF6@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1692

Hi

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> What month was Ron born in?  We've seen several other characters
> mention their birthdays: Harry, Nearly Headless Nick (OK, his
> deathday--still important IMO :)), and Hermione.  Any theories about
> when Ron was born?  And if it isn't in early July, how come we've
> never heard any mention of it being celebrated or acknowledged?

I do think it's a bit odd that it hasn't been mentioned.  We know the
twins were born in April.

> I think Ron was born in March or early May myself, for some reason.
> I'm not into astrology, but there's something about those March/May
> folks I've known that reminds me of him.

Well, since I was completely in love with a red-headed boy in jr high
with a May birthday, I'd second the notion that Ron might be a May
child.  He's also got that Taurus stubbornness.  He might also be a June
birthday -- right after they leave Hogwarts for the summer holiday (and
since we never see much of the summer holiday until 31 July, that could
explain it not being mentioned so far).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 02:40:16 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:40:16 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crabbe and Goyle ??
Message-ID: <ea.ae988ce.26f82c10@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1693

Actually, they mention Crabbe and Goyle's names early on. Either in PS or CoS. Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle.

Ellie

In a message dated Mon, 18 Sep 2000  5:24:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Brian " <skywalker1 at ibm.net> writes:

<< Hello,
   I'm pretty sure I'm just imagining things but it occurred to me 
recently that there seems to be something strange around the 
characters of Crabbe and Goyle.  It was after finishing GoF for the 
second time that the Deatheater scene made me think something was up. 
As Voldy is walking around recognizing his minions, he passes two 
people he refers to as Crabbe and Goyle.  The first time I read this, 
I just assumed they were each a parent of Draco's pals.  I guess what 
got me wondering the second time is that Voldy greets them as Crabbe 
and Goyle rather than the Crabbe's and the Goyle's.  Is it reasonable 
that only one parent would follow Voldy and not the other?  Maybe so 
as it appeared that Lucius' wife wasn't there either.  Anyway, I 
thought what if this Crabbe and Goyle were the same as the ones 
attending Hogwarts!  I know, this is a little far-fetched but at the 
time I also realized that I didn't know either of their first names.  
I have since discovered them at the Encyclopaedia Potterica but still 
have not found them in the books.  I imagine the names are there 
somewhere but it still got me thinking could these two be something 
other than they appear.  Well, I know it's pretty hair-brained but I 
haven't been able to get it out of my head.  Any thoughts?

Brian


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 >>





From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 02:37:47 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:37:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q69gb+erm8@eGroups.com> <39C6B07B.8ABADABB@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39C6D17A.C2C2178C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1694

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> The Weasley ages are puzzling though.  I do think there's a fairly
> sizeable gap between Charlie & Percy, when you consider how the younger
> 5 children are spaced.

Well, there *could* have been more Weasleys, not yet mentioned, who fell to
Voldemort, couldn't there? Wasn't it Arthur Weasley who explained the Dark
Mark's significance to Harry, saying you'd come home to see it over your
house, knowing what you're about to find inside? Perhaps he spoke from
experience. Just a thought.

--Amanda




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 02:40:41 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:40:41 -0000
Subject: anti Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <8q6glb+c3km@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6jn9+7d5c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1695

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Hi Kelley and all:
> 
> I was Jehovah's Witness for four years growing up (the exact grades 
> of middle school I'm now teaching, come to think of it), and 
there's 
> a lot more behind the prohibition of certain celebrations than 
that.  
> Basically it all boils down to the fact that JW's object to the 
pagan 
> origins of the holidays in question (i.e. secular Christmas 
> corresponds to Saturnalia; the only birthday celebration in the 
Bible 
> involved John the Baptizer's head being sliced off and presented on 
a 
> platter).
> 
> I reserve comment on these issues, as I and my family am no longer 
> affiliated with the Watchtower.  I do realize that this is a 
> potentially touchy subject.  Just wanted to clarify the above a 
bit.  
> And no, JWs wouldn't consider Harry Potter their cup of tea.
> 
> --Ebony

Hi Ebony--

Thanks for straightening that out.  I knew I was leaving something 
out, had some details wrong, something. ;o]  BTW, to comment on 
another post of yours, I agree about Ron.  I'd like to see him get 
something more to do than be jealous of Harry and angry over his 
poverty.  But, now that I think about it, he got to go at least part 
way with Harry in CoS while Hermione was in the infirmary.  And, he 
was Harry's "Wheezy".  So, their first adventure, all three went, 
second-- Ron went, third-- Hermione went, fourth-- Harry went the 
last round on his own, unless you count James and Lily helping out 
in "Priori Incantatem".  I've never thought about that before.

Kelley




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 02:54:28 2000
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:54:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
Message-ID: <c1.7070c5d.26f82f64@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1696

There's always the possibility that one (or more) of the Weasley children could have been killed in Voldie's previous reign of terror. That could account for the gap of ages.

Ellie

In a message dated Mon, 18 Sep 2000  8:39:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "milz " <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> writes:

<< Harry being the youngest Quiddtich player in the last 100 years is 
very important because first years aren't generally allowed to be on 
the Quidditch teams. So, Charlie HAD to have been at least a second 
year when he began playing on the team.

Bill is the eldest Weasley son. Charlie is the second eldest. So if 
the last time Bill was at Hogwarts was when he was a student (17-18 
years old) and if that was "five years ago", then Bill would be 22-23 
in Book 4.

In Book 3, Bill would have been 21-22 years old AND the last time 
Gryffindor won the House Quidditch Cup was 7 years ago. So Bill would 
have been 14 to 15 years old when the Quidditch Cup was won (21-22 - 
7 years = 14-15 years). Since Charlie had to be at least in his 
second year to be eligible to play on the Quidditch Team, Charlie HAS 
to be at the most 2 years younger than Bill.

But you're right it is very confusing. I guess in the non-Muggle 
world after going through a school like Hogwarts, one is prepared for 
the job world.

Milz
 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> milz wrote:
> 
> > In Book 4, Bill says it's been 5 years since he was at Hogwarts. 
So
> > in Book 4, Bill was at least 23 years old (IF the last time he 
was at
> > Hogwarts was when he was a student)
> 
> I think he's been there since he was a student because I think he's 
more
> like 25-27 in GoF.
> 
> > In Book 3, it was the first time in 7 years that Gryffindor won 
the
> > House Quidditch Cup.
> 
> This then means Charlie has been gone 4 yrs by the start of SS at a
> minimum.  So, he's 5 yrs out of Hogwarts in GoF, which makes him at
> least 22, maybe 23 (if he left Hogwarts when 17 or 18).  That makes 
Bill
> 24-25 & possibly a bit older even.
> 
> > Since Harry is the youngest Quidditch player in 100 years 
(according
> > to book 1), Charlie Weasley had to be at the very least a 2nd year
> > when they won the Quidditch Cup.
> 
> I'm not sure if that matters -- his winning it as a 2nd year that 
is.  I
> have the impression that Charlie gave Gryffindor the Quidditch Cup
> several years running, and the *last* time they won it before PoA 
was
> Charlie's final year at Hogwarts.
> 
> > Therefore, Charlie Weasley is at least 2 years younger than Bill.
> 
> I wasn't sure how you got there logically.  Oh, you're basing that 
on
> the fact that Bill said he hadn't been at Hogwarts in 5 yrs.  I 
still
> think he came to some alumni event most likely.
> 
> The Weasley ages are puzzling though.  I do think there's a fairly
> sizeable gap between Charlie & Percy, when you consider how the 
younger
> 5 children are spaced.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> >>





From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 02:52:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:52:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
References: <8q6hm4+5q8p@eGroups.com> <39C6D1B0.6A07571B@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39C6D4F0.489693E0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1697

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Voldemort had just been taunting him with how his father had faced
> Voldemort bravely, and Harry had just been thinking that he wasn't going
> to die crouching behind a tombstone but rather standing upright & brave
> as his father had.  So . . . . it doesn't seem strange to me that his
> father was more on his mind then.

I'm new to the list, so this has probably been long ago considered and
discarded, but....authors *do* screw up sometimes. Maybe JKR just was caught
up in the drama of the moment? Has she verified in any interviews or
anything that the order was deliberate, not just a snafu? Things do slip by,
like the editors forgetting to change "sherbet lemon" to "lemon drop" in the
American version of b4 (Dumbledore's password); Harry's guesses of other
candy types don't make much sense unless you know sherbet lemon is British
for lemon drop. Like sweaters are jumpers. Etc.

Okay, I'll stand back so I'll be a good, clear target now.

--Amanda




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 02:55:53 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 02:55:53 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order
In-Reply-To: <39C6D1B0.6A07571B@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8q6kjp+eq54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1698

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> I think he feels a closer connection to his father in many ways 
(perhaps
> partly because Harry has learned more about his father & father's
> friends than he has about his mum).  His Patronus is a very strong
> example of his emotional connection with his father.  In PoA, he 
seems
> especially keen to see his father.  He is said to look exactly like 
his
> father.   Also, when he hears his father's voice in the Dementor
> Memories, this moves him to tears.  He hadn't cried earlier when 
hearing
> his mother's pleading screams.
> 
> Voldemort had just been taunting him with how his father had faced
> Voldemort bravely, and Harry had just been thinking that he wasn't 
going
> to die crouching behind a tombstone but rather standing upright & 
brave
> as his father had.  So . . . . it doesn't seem strange to me that 
his
> father was more on his mind then.
> 
> Penny

Wow, those are really good points, Penny.  That makes a lot of 
sense.  So, do you think this could be part of Harry ~making~ James 
come out first?  Wouldn't it have a stronger effect if Lily came out 
first, said his father was coming, then James came out and told Harry 
what to do?  James being last would seem more emotionally powerful 
and poignant, plus it would seem more in keeping with James being so 
much on Harry's mind that night.  Any thoughts?

Kelley  




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep 19 02:57:30 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:57:30 -0500
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Envy (long)
Message-ID: <39C6D61A.160B2006@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1699

How does JK Rowling use the concept of envy in the HP books?  I see a
lot of connections to my last post on this subject of how the 7 deadly
sins are explored in the series (the post on pride).

I think I've made this point before, and of course, it's obvious, but
one of Harry's most important character-shaping experiences as it
relates to envy was living with the Dursleys.  Perhaps he had a good,
stable foundation with his parents for a year and a quarter, but from
that point on, he was stuck in a total unequal situation.  Dudley got
everything; Harry got nothing.  Dumbledore told Prof. McGonagall that
Harry should live with the Dursleys because there he could live a normal
life, and not grow up being warped by the knowledge he was famous.
Things didn't turn out quite the way Dumbledore perhaps intended it--I
don't think (I hope) that Dumbledore knew that the Dursleys would treat
Harry as dreadfully as they did.  But in one respect, Harry's life with
the Dursleys helped him understand deep in his bones the nature of
inequality that leads to envy.  I think, for example, it helped him to
understand Ron's jealousy and envy in book 4--although that
understanding doesn't entirely help Harry to handle the situation with
total grace (i.e., throwing the button at Ron and snarling that maybe
Ron will have a scar, which is what he always wanted).

Yet, I don't think that Harry exactly envied Dudley.  He saw Dudley's
privileges, but I don't get the impression that he exactly wanted
anything that Dudley had, other than regular food and a sense of
belonging (and perhaps an occasional trip to the zoo).  He didn't seem
to long for love from his aunt and uncle, probably because it was so
clear to him that they were such awful people, that being loved by them
wasn't much of a prize.  Moreover, he saw clearly that the indulgence
that Dudley's parents gave their son turned him into something of a
monster.  Dudley is a loathsome person--a glutton, someone who is not
particularly bright, a cruel, sadistic, selfish bully, and so Harry
doesn't exactly look at him and think, "I wish I could be just like
him."

His envy toward Cedric, in contrast, is more personal and more real.
Cedric is not a loathsome person but a good person, and Harry can see
that, and so the feeling, "I want to be like him" is more of a
temptation.  Moreover, Cedric has things that Harry really does want: a
more developed physique, the admiration of Cho, social ease, the
undisputed right to compete in the Triwizard Tournament, the acceptance
of the other students of his right to be called a Hogwarts champion.
This envy of Cedric (as well as Harry's pride--see the Pride post) shape
Harry's response to the temptation to claim the cup alone at the end of
the third task.  Harry overcomes both pride and envy and invites Cedric
to share the cup instead.  (And as I have said before, what an
incredible irony that JK Rowling takes one of Harry's noblest moments
and turns into the cause of a tragedy).

Other characters suffering from envy:  Snape and Draco.

We don't know exactly what Snape's problem is (although the speculation
has been fun), but we do get the impression that envy is at least part
of it.  He was jealous of James--he speaks bitterly of James' position
as head boy and Quidditch hero--and several of us have suspected that he
might have envied James' relationship with Lily.  (We need more
information on this, which hopefully will be coming in forthcoming
books).  Questions that remain are: why, exactly, does Snape's hatred of
James transfer to James' son, and conversely, why does Snape overcome
that hate/envy to save Harry's life in the first book?

Draco seems envious of both Harry and Hermione (Ron he merely seems to
scorn).  He considers Hermione to be an academic rival, and as for
Harry, Draco seems to resent Harry's fame, Quidditch success and general
alpha male niche in the school social order.

This message has run on pretty long, and the only thing I'll add is a
question to our UK members.  Is the picture of Hogwarts being set up to
run on interhouse rivalry an accurate picture of British schools?  Upon
thinking about it, I wonder at Dumbledore a little for running a school
structure that seems so fraught with the potential for causing
envy/competitiveness/competition to ferment into bad feeling.  Among
other problems, it would seem to be a structure calculated to aggravate
the worst traits of the Slytherins.  If you have a bunch of students
whose main characteristic is scheming and ambition, wouldn't you be
better off stressing teamwork and cooperation rather than competition,
if you want to keep them from succumbing to envy?  (I suppose the
reasoning is that members of each house cooperate, working as a team, in
order to answer the needs of competition.  But still . . . )

I don't feel that this is one of my most coherent posts, but I've spent
enough time on it, and so I'm sending it along.  If anyone wants to add
any further comments/observations about envy in the books, feel free to
add them to the hopper.

Peg

>>>>

"No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably Cooperative
Attitude."




From waghorne at ma.ultranet.com  Tue Sep 19 04:01:55 2000
From: waghorne at ma.ultranet.com (Ken Waghorne)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:01:55 -500
Subject: Priori Incantatem & House Elf Magic
In-Reply-To: <8q42im+t97o@eGroups.com>
References: <8puq4t+q75o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <200009190301.XAA20413@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1700

I'll try to cover two topics here to reduce clutter.

Vicki Merriman wrote:
> 
> Yes, but I don't agree that Harry caused the "reversal."  Harry 
> didn't actually cause the wand to regurgitate spells.  That was an 
> effect of his holding his own in the fight, caused by his magical 
> strength, perhaps, but not caused BY him.  i.e.  because the wands 
> were brothers, it was tough to make them fight each other and that is 
> what caused the regurgitation.  Dumbledore specifically stated that 
> the reversal was a rare BUT KNOWN effect caused by the relationship 
> of the wands.  It wasn't caused by harry's will at all.

But it was V's wand that regurgitated spells instead of Harry's.  I 
think you have to give Harry some credit for that, since he did force 
that ball of light (I forget the exact description, and the books are 
loaned out) away from his wand and back down V's.  I have to 
wonder what the Death Eaters thought while they were watching 
that.  First Harry threw off the imperious curse and then that! 

milz wrote:
> 
> Are House Elves more powerful than the wizarding folk and that's 
the 
> reason why they are regulated? If they are powerful, then wouldn't 
it 
> make sense for Voldemort to try to get the House Elves on his 
side?

My guess would be that V only sees House Elves as servants, and 
doesn't think they could be of any possible use to him.  He does 
seem to let quite a few things slip his mind in his quest for power. If 
so, he'll be in for a shock when the HELF sends their forces over to 
the good side just in the knick of time -- led by Dobby and Winky. 




Ken
aka
Hound Fan
aka
Boston...



From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 02:59:52 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:59:52 -0500
Subject: Oh, nothing really
References: <8q69gb+erm8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D6A7.A0288B80@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1701

By the way, thank you to everyone! I'm having the most marvelous time with
this group. I only had one other adult friend who'd read the books, and
she's not into in-depth detail stuff (she can't be, she teaches fifth grade
and has no mind left). Just wanted to let you guys know while I was thinking
about it.

Oh, yeah, I bet Ron's birthday's in the first part of the summer, too, and
thus Harry can do nothing about/for it (at least so far), so we haven't
heard much.

--Amanda




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 19 03:12:16 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:12:16 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore's mistake; Crabbe & Goyle; James & Lily vs V: the duel;  Weasley chronology
References: <969331235.12626@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D992.F5511899@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1702

>There could be something about James and/or Lily that Dumbledore 
>doesn't know about or hasn't told Harry.

There clearly IS something that Dubmledore knows about HARRY that he has
nottold Harry yet; he says as much in denouement of SS/PS.


Crabb & Goyle's first names are divulged on the train in Book III i believe.


On James & Lily's final duel with V I have previously suggested that the
house was destroyed when James tried to slow V down by collapsing part
of it on him. 

It also occurs to me that JKR just made a mistake when she had James
emerge form wand before Lily and she too is frantically trying to come
up with an explanation. :-)


I also am intrigued by the analysis that the Weasley's had fewer kids
during the reign of Voldy,  or the suggestion they may have even lost
some in that period.  I had previously proposed a general wizard low
birth rate during The Bad Years, but didn't detail analyze the age/date clues.

-Brooks



From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 03:10:23 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:10:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] British schools
References: <39C6D61A.160B2006@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39C6D91E.C737C62F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1703

Peg Kerr wrote:

> This message has run on pretty long, and the only thing I'll add is a
> question to our UK members.  Is the picture of Hogwarts being set up to
> run on interhouse rivalry an accurate picture of British schools?  Upon
> thinking about it, I wonder at Dumbledore a little for running a school
> structure that seems so fraught with the potential for causing
> envy/competitiveness/competition to ferment into bad feeling.

Okay. I will preface this with I Am Not British. I've never lived there. But
I've always gotten the feeling that the British are much less hung up than
Americans on the belief that life's gonna (gotta) be fair. And they allow
their children to experience this truth, that life happens and it sometimes
sucks, a little earlier than Americans do (if Americans ever get around to
telling their children this at all). The "hands off" approach to operating
Hogwarts is one way of giving its students a measure of Life Studies, as it
were, with the teachers there as moderators rather than enforcers.

This agrees with the European attitudes toward children and alcohol, too.
Kids who have never been allowed near alcohol often find it alluring and are
bowled over by their first experiences with it. And kids who have never been
allowed to understand that sometimes you get stood on and that's just the
way it is, are often bowled over by their first experience of the real
world.

This, from an overprotective mom. Sigh. Knowing what's intelligent and doing
it are so very different sometimes.

Anyway, that's my thought.

--Amanda




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Sep 19 02:44:25 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:44:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
Message-ID: <200009190337.e8J3b1o17122@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1704

>I'm new to the list, so this has probably been long ago considered and
>discarded, but....authors *do* screw up sometimes. Maybe JKR just was caught
>up in the drama of the moment?


Several people have said this, but I for one just don't but this theory.  A) 
JKR does not screw up on the big stuff, and this is pretty big stuff, and more 
importantly B) the fact that the Priori Incantatem spell regurgitates the last 
spells it performed IN REVERSE ORDER is emphasized 4 or 5 times--a little too 
emphatically, I think, for it all to be a mistake.  (And even if it is a 
mistake, JKR better find a way to incorporate it into the plot pronto or deal 
with mobs of angry fans!)  But seriously, in rereading GoF, the number of 
times this was emphasized really stood out for me--almost like she was begging 
us to notice that something was amiss.

Kathy
who is still mulling over Peg's post on envy and trying tocome up with 
something intelligent to add!




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep 19 03:08:38 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:08:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
References: <8q6kjp+eq54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C6D8B5.2EA50C8D@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1705



Kelley wrote:

Wouldn't it have a stronger effect if Lily came out

> first, said his father was coming, then James came out and told Harry
> what to do?  James being last would seem more emotionally powerful
> and poignant, plus it would seem more in keeping with James being so
> much on Harry's mind that night.  Any thoughts?

The poignant thing for me about the scene as it was written was the Lily,
the last to appear, was the one who told Harry what he had to do to escape,
and so that it was, in a sense, Lily who saved him again in this chapter,
just as she gave her life to save him when she died.

BTW, can't remember if I've mentioned it before here or only on some of the
other boards I've been on.  Has anyone the very strong resemblance between
the wand scene here and the scene in Shakespeare's Richard III, where all of
Richard's murdered victims appear to him, telling him to "despair and die,"
and then offer encouragement to Richard's rival, Richmond, telling him to be
strong, that he will win the battle.  I thought of that scene immediately
when I read the Priori Incantatem chapter.

Peg

>>>>

"No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably Cooperative
Attitude."




From shellymoos at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 04:06:13 2000
From: shellymoos at hotmail.com (Shelly )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:06:13 -0000
Subject: Harry's thoughts that night
Message-ID: <8q6onl+qjvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1706

Hi all, I was just thinking about Kelley's post.  One of the reasons 
I think Harry was probably thinking more of James is the simple fact 
he is a boy.  When boys are teenagers they seem to need their fathers 
a lot more.  And he has also come to care for Siruis a great deal who 
was a friend of his fathers.  Not that he wasn't a friend of Lily's 
but Sirius and James were two of the marauders.  I just think that it 
probably does have something to do with the fact he is a boy.  
Watching my own son and husband I see this.  My son loves me but he 
always has a need to be with Daddy.  And since this was something 
that Harry grew up without it is probably the one thing he would want 
most in the world (Mirror of Erised).  Guys just need that male 
bonding thing there.  This would also explain why he seems closer to 
Arthur than Molly.  Not that he doesn't care for Molly but he needs 
that male role model even more.   Later  Shelly




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 19 05:03:27 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 05:03:27 -0000
Subject: Timeline
In-Reply-To: <8q5ueu+ed5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1707

In the timeline for the Lexicon, I put the Marauders and their 
contemporaries down generally in the 1970s, but since it's impossible 
to nail things down to specific years, I created a "relative time 
line" for them. It's built on a couple of completely unsupported 
assumptions--James and Lily married right out of school and Harry was 
born two years after their wedding--but the result is a consistent 
picture of how those years MIGHT fit into the whole. 

I still think there's something weird going on with time in these 
books. I think Harry is somehow the focal point of a whole lot of 
things coming together. He's a conglomeration of so many other 
people: his mother's eyes, James and Tom's hair, various attributes 
of Voldemort, etc. And there's that odd comment about Voldemort being 
Salazar Slytherin's "ancestor" that we're all just assuming is an 
editorial error...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


> But, for now, in CoS, the image of Tom Riddle Harry sees is sixteen 
> years old, and we know that that was fifty years ago.  So, in CoS,  
> Vold would be sixty-six years old.  Now, we don't have any solid 
info 
> on James' and Lily's ages, but we know Lupin was 'young' and 
> prematurely gray.  And, once Harry sees Sirius cleaned up, he looks 
> much the way he did in James' and Lily's wedding picture.  My hunch 
> is that JKR made the Marauder generation about her own age-- mid-
> thirties or so.  Just a hunch, though.




From drmm at Juno.com  Tue Sep 19 05:16:34 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:16:34 -0500
Subject: why Harry survived. . .
Message-ID: <20000919.001637.-894855.0.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1708

Some recent comments on how Harry was saved from the Adava Kedavra (btw,
am I the only one who's noticed how much like abracadabra that sounds?)
since obviously Lily wasn't the only one who died trying to protect
someone she loved and I've decided to throw out my personal theory as to
why he was saved.

One of the very few things we know about Lily is that she's good at
charms.  It seems to have been her specialty.  And in GoF Crouch-as-Moody
says that there's no way to defend against an Adava Kedavra curse. 
However, what if there's only no *known* way to defend against it.  In
the magical world spells and potions, etc. are constantly being invented.
 Lupin says that the potion which makes him keep his mind when he
transforms didn't exist when he was a boy . . .  This leads me to think
that no one has invented one against the AK curse yet.

I suspect Lily invented a charm that can defend against the Adava Kedavra
curse and performed it on Harry just before she died.  Perhaps Voldemort
even knew what she was trying to do and *that's* why he killed her.  So,
when he cursed Harry, Harry was protected by Lily's newly invented charm
and that's why Harry survived.

And while I'm on the subject . . . I'm going to guess that the charm
sealed the curse in Harry's scar somehow, which would explain why
Dumbledore in the first book comments on how scars can come in handy. 
Perhaps Voldemort will accidently release the curse in the last book and
it'll rebound and kill him . . . >:)  Of course, this is just wild
speculation on my part. ;)

BTW, to whoever commented earlier today about the possibilty of Snape
being in love with Lily. . . I'm firmly convinced of that (well, perhaps
90% convinced anyway) and one of these days I'm going to write a long
commentary on how I believe most of Snape's behavior coincides perfectly
with this theory. . . . Of course, there is this nasty thing called
school...

DrMM (suffering from a nasty, sneezy cold at the moment)

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Fancy Lala
________________________________________________________________
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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 07:01:32 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:01:32 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEEFCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8q730c+838a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1709

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> >>>>The house falling in kills James.(?) <<<<<
> 
> I've always wondered why the destruction of the house did not harm 
Harry.
> All he has to show for being cursed and blown up, is a scar on his 
forehead.
> Lily's body MAY have been covering  him after she was dead, but then
> wouldn't Lord V have pushed it aside to get to Harry?
---------

Yes, that's something I can't figure out either.  The best I could 
come up with is Lily's charm, and that's a bit weak.  Maybe it has 
something to do with them being in G's Hollow?  If Harry is descended 
from G. Gryff.?  Don't know... 

Kelley




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 07:06:37 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:06:37 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley's and that age gap.
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEHICIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <000901c02208$29b53c80$0966883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 1710

Sorry I have got really muddled this is what happens when a) you lend your
books and try to work from memory and b) try to write the email explaining
it after a hard day observing in school, then writing up 5 pages of
observations and 10 of lecture notes all on 5hrs sleep argh.  Thank you
everyone will try to read, digest absorb all you said when I am more awake
yet again I've only had 5hrs sleep.

Heather.

NB: to all UK dwellers do not think PGCE is an easy option. Basically you do
tyhe 4yrs of a  BEd compressed into one.  It's killing me.
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Branford <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: HPforGU <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 12:55 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley's and that age gap.


>
> "Having been lurking for a long time I am emerging from my corner of the
UK
> to ask for help with something that is puzzling me."
>
> Welcome, from an already emerged UK person. At the moment I am involved in
> the process of writing the FAQ's based on the Yahoo group message archive.
> As I have the Weasley FAQ, excluding Ron, to write I should know something
> about this.
>
> "I have worked on creating a timeline using the books, Steve Bates lexicon
> etc for the Weasley family. According to my amateur calculations based on
> Charlie Weasley being 18 when he left school and that being the year
> Gryffyndor won the Quidditch Championship. IIRC (I've lent my copy -
stupid)
> it says in HP & PS circa 1991 it has been seven years since Gryffyndor has
> won. Therefore Charlie Weasley must have been born in 1966, with Bill
> sometime previously. The next Weasley is Percy who if he left Hogwarts at
18
> in PoA 1994 must have been born 1976.
>
> A couple of corrections are needed in here. In PS (Ch13) it is said that
it
> is seven years since Gryffindor have won the House Cup. It is in PoA that
it
> is said that it is seven years since they have won the Quidditch Cup (PoA
> Chs12 & 15). This means that the ages of Charlie, and therefore also Bill,
> can be reduced by 2 years. This gives the age of Charlie as 26 in GoF
> (corresponding to being born in 1968). This corresponds to an age gap of
> eight years. These eight years would then be 1968 to 1976.
>
> This period would correspond to the some of the time when Voldemort was
> gaining power, but interestingly still leaves Percy, Fred, George and Ron
> being born while Voldemort was still gaining power. With Ginny being born
> around the time of his downfall.
>
> So did the Weasley's at first only want two kids and then decided to have
> more. Or were there a few miscarriages, or other problems, in-between.
>
> "I am puzzled. Please help put me out of my misery so I can concentrate on
> studying for my PGCE which is what I should be doing now. I'm teacher
> training and love the work in the classroom but I'm not so keen on the
> theory, however necessary."
>
> Oh dear - this may not happen. When a discussion starts around here it can
> go on and on and then metamorphosis into many other different topics.
>
> Simon (who needs to get back to writing these FAQ's)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 07:24:30 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:24:30 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Mistake
In-Reply-To: <8q6a1u+a11i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q74be+7rv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1711

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> There could be something about James and/or Lily that Dumbledore 
> doesn't know about or hasn't told Harry. I have a tendency to think 
> the Potters and the McKinnons were killed for a specific reason. 
The 
> McKinnons were mentioned twice (first time in Book 1 by Hagrid and 
> the second time in Book 4 by Sirius Black). Maybe Lily and James 
were 
> working on some top secret project??
> 
> Milz

----------

I didn't notice that about the McKinnons.  And, didn't JKR say the 
revelation of Lily's and James' "jobs" would be important?  More so 
than just why does Harry have so much money, anyway.  That's quite a 
good point.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the Department of 
Mysteries?  Isn't that what it's called?  Someone in GoF was supposed 
to have worked here, and no one knew what he did, or what this 
department even does, right? 

Hmmm, more to ponder...

Kelley




From Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 13:11:27 2000
From: Katie_Bell_Chaser at yahoo.com (Katie Bell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Gap in Weasley family
Message-ID: <20000919131127.20851.qmail@web3704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1712

Ok, my two cents:

We already know that wizards live longer than Muggles,
right?  (I'm sure JK said this in a chat when asked
about Dumbledore's age.)  So my idea is this; what if
wizards age slower?  Therefore, in general, you might
think a fifty year old wizard is thirty.  Look at
Hagrid; does he look as if he's more than sixty?  I
know, he has giant blood and that could have something
to do with it, but maybe not.  What if witches can
bear children for longer than Muggle women?  She could
have been quite young when Bill and Charlie were born,
and then the other five came along a while later. 
Actually, this would be good family planning - have
older children to help out with the younger ones!  (It
works that way in my family).  Since we know that the
Weasleys (Arthur and Molly) are at least seven years
older than the Marauders (Molly left before the Willow
was planted, which happened when Remus started the
school) they have to be around fifty anyway... I have
a visual image of Bill as around 27, myself, and his
mother nagging him to 'settle down with some nice
witch and raise a family', hence her obsession with
cutting his hair. 

Hope that doesn't cause more confusion.

Katie Bell

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/



From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Tue Sep 19 13:30:00 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:30:00 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] anti Harry Potter
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1576214359.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1713




>
>Harry Potter's world is neither Christian or pagan.
>
>I'm a pagan, and a witch. A real one. I don't work evil, I don't hurt people, 
>I don't torture or maim or sacrifice, and I don't work evil magic.
>
>There are pagan groups throughout the world. We are peaceful, and love nature.
>(http://www.witchvox.com for those interested). We do not worship Satan. We 
>don't recognize Satan as being real. We are not evil.Unfortunately, there are some Christians who think pagans are also evil. They 
>think Harry Potter is a pagan -- he's not.


Yes, sadly it's true there are really some christians who generalize that all pagans are supposedly "evil" and therefore they aren't worthy of life eternal even though they seem to be doing no harm to anyone. I think that this is a very,very traditional way of thinking, that christians base from the holy bible.Maybe it's about time to start and question the bible and its deeper meanings. Like, someone in this list said awhile back, the bible has a lot of misinterpretations and wrong messages. I'm not saying that the bible is wrong. It's just probably that the people who interpreted the bible way back made a mistake after all were just human. We should understand first what it means before taking it in and judging someone. 




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 14:22:41 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:22:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Gap in Weasley family
References: <20000919131127.20851.qmail@web3704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39C776B1.3CA34B58@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1714

Hi --

Katie Bell wrote:

> She could have been quite young when Bill and Charlie were born,
> and then the other five came along a while later.

I think this is fairly probable.  And, like Sister Mary pointed out,
there's a decent chance that there was one or more Weasley children in
between Charlie & Percy -- miscarriages, stillborns, early infant
deaths.  Or, the gap could be just as you suggested and nothing more
than they could only truly afford the 2 kids for awhile there & then
decided to go ahead & have the large family they'd always wanted.

> Since we know that the Weasleys (Arthur and Molly) are at least seven
> years older than the Marauders (Molly left before the Willow
> was planted, which happened when Remus started the school) they have
> to be around fifty anyway... I have a visual image of Bill as around
> 27, myself, and his mother nagging him to 'settle down with some nice
> witch and raise a family', hence her obsession with cutting his hair.

Yep -- that's my image too.  I think Bill is 26/27 in GoF and Charlie is
about 24/25.  And, since the Weasleys are at least 7 yrs older than the
Marauders, it doesn't seem likely to me that Bill is much less than 26
or 27.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 14:37:59 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:37:59 -0000
Subject: The Sin of Envy (also long)
In-Reply-To: <39C6D61A.160B2006@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8q7to7+1bme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1715

My dear La Belle Dame, in the hope your attitude is trending 
reasonable today:

Dear Peg:

A nice essay. JKR is teaching good moral lessons throughout her
books, 
about friendship, teamwork, and the nature of good and evil. You have 
touched on others.  You might say she has been addressing gluttony
all 
along with Dudley; some of the others we have yet to see.

Speaking of Dudley and the Dursleys, there is a really glaring
example 
of envy there: Aunt Petunia's envy of her late sister. Eleven years 
after her sister's death, it still rankles Petunia that Lily was 
special and treated special, at least in Petunia's eyes.  The
jealousy 
helped turn her to hostility towards Lily's son. What happened to 
Petunia is the kind of thing that we don't want to happen to Ron.

We can't talk about envy without dealing with Ron. Ron's feelings are 
more complex than just envy.  He's trying to develop self-esteem in
an 
environment where it must seem everybody else does better: Two Head 
Boys and a quidditch star for brothers and an academic superstar and 
dead-lock on for Head Girl for a friend and possible girlfriend (who 
rubs salt in the wound by going out with a world-class Quidditch 
star). Just to top it off,his best friend is the most famous wizard
of 
his generation.  I'm not proud of it, but if I had been in Ron's
shoes 
I don't think I could have handled it.  I think that kind of envy is
a 
different quality than mere envy of toys and possessions. It cuts 
right to your worth as a human being. It turns some people to
jealousy 
and hostility and others to depression and anxiety. What saves Ron,
at 
least for now, are his friends and his loving family. BTW, we have to 
give Harry a pass for his behavior toward Ron -- tremendous stress, 
and nobody likes it when people don't believe them. But what is Ron's 
future?

I think what Cedric had that Harry really envied was peace. Cedric
was 
popular without the burden of notoriety.  He had a little fame but
not 
too much.  People looked at Cedric without their eyes flicking up to 
his forehead.  Cedric doesn't appear to have a lot of self-doubt, 
either. Harry knows somewhere Cho would have gone with him if he'd 
gotten up his nerve to ask first.  We haven't seen anything to
suggest 
Harry envies Cedric his looks or physique too much.

Look forward to the rest of your series! Keep writing them, and don't 
worry about how long they are!




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 14:39:45 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:39:45 -0000
Subject: British Schools - competition 
In-Reply-To: <39C6D61A.160B2006@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8q7trh+tvs9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1716

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> This message has run on pretty long, and the only thing I'll add is 
a
> question to our UK members.  Is the picture of Hogwarts being set 
up to
> run on interhouse rivalry an accurate picture of British schools?  
Upon
> thinking about it, I wonder at Dumbledore a little for running a 
school
> structure that seems so fraught with the potential for causing
> envy/competitiveness/competition to ferment into bad feeling

An interesting question.  At the risk of repeating myself (again!) 
one has to be a bit careful in talking about 'British' schools - 
apart from the fact that Scotland has a separate education system 
from England and Wales, there are many different types of British 
school.  Hogwarts is not typical of state schools - mostly state 
schools are not boarding schools.  However most boarding schools and 
some state schools do operate on a house system.  In some boarding 
schools it means much as described in Hogwarts - children in the same 
house live together.  I do not know of any schools that organise 
teaching in separate houses but that doesn't mean there aren't any.  

If the children participate in competitive games (and any game that 
has a system of scoring points is by definition a competitive game - 
else why bother to score?) then the house system is a convenient way 
to organise tournaments.  Then there is the behavioural control side 
of it - systems of rewards and punishments - which enables all 
children (whether good at games or not) to earn merit for their 
house.  It is this aspect of houses that some state schools have 
taken up - the convenience of organising competitions - sports, 
chess, cooking, in fact anything - internally.  This has its good 
points and its bad.  Encouragement of competition is not always a 
good thing but, many children who could not hope to represent their 
school in their chosen sport or interest (whether it be chess or 
swimming or whatever) do get an opportunity to represent their house 
and sports or other coaching at house level may give children more 
individual attention than even the regular year group class teaching.

Where the house system of Hogwarts seems to be quite at odds with any 
house system I've ever come across is the idea that personality has 
any bearing on the house to which one is allocated.  When I was at 
school (a state school) I asked to be in a particular house because 
all the members of my family who had attended that school had been in 
that particular house (Clare House: motto - Semper Fidelis; house 
colour -  bottle green; house song -  He who would valiant be).  If 
there were no family connections to a particular house children were 
allocated on a random basis.  I think this would have been the method 
in most schools operating a house system.

Interestingly enough, about half way through my school career the 
school had grown to the extent that it was decided to form two new 
houses and the rules were changed at the same time.  Clearly it was 
felt that there was something wrong with putting members of the same 
family in the same house - possibly because there were a couple of 
families, each with two or three children at the school at the same 
time, where sporting talent ran in the family.  It was possibly also 
felt that children have to put up with their siblings at home - there 
is no need for them to have to put up with them at school as well!

That being said, I believe the great majority of state schools in 
Britain are like the one attended by my children - it gets along 
perfectly well with no house system at all and no other system of 
internal competition.  This really bothers some people who believe 
that Britain is the poorer for the demise of competitive games at 
school.  Some people who feel this way seem to think that the UK's 
worth is determined by how many medals are won at the Olympics and 
whether or not England, Scotland or Wales qualify for the football 
world cup.  This is clearly rubbish - the UK's worth is quite 
obviously determined by the performance the England Cricket team! 
<big grin>.








From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Sep 19 16:40:20 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:40:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Timeline & apology.
References: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 1717

First apologies to Steve Vander Ark for getting him  mixed up with Steve
Bates in attributing the lexicon. I can only blame lack of sleep and VDU
eyes especially as it was written down in front of me.  I wish I could say
I'd caught up on the sleep but I'm afraid I've only OD'd on caffeine.

I have thought more on the subject, borrowed my sisters books ( well
technically I took them without consent as she was still at school but I did
leave a note.) and read all the responses and I'm still convinced Charlie
must have left school in 1984. Thus giving him an aproximate birthdate of
1969.

I don't think money can have been the reason the Weasleys waited after all
they are still financially insolvent. It is possible there are some missing
Weasleys but umless there were miscarriges surely Ron would know, as even if
his parents didn't talk about it Bill and Charlie would know. If older
Weasley kids died rather than neonates surely it would also have been common
knowledge in the wizarding world.

Although I'm going to contadict myself slightly here as I know siblings
don't always talk about the death of siblings. Certainly my brother and
sister are unaware of the baby that died between them and I never mention it
to them because my father doesn't like it mentioned, only Mum and I ever
talk about it.

I was wondering if maybe Molly was somehow involved in the fight against
Voldemort and so deliberately postponed babies, then Percy happened
accidentally. Once she was at home with one baby there may not have been any
reason not to have anymore. Just a suggestion.

Heather




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 16:46:29 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:46:29 -0400
Subject: Molly's babies
References: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com> <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default>
Message-ID: <01a201c02259$37a0e960$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1718

I don't know.  I think that the idea of the Death Mark, and the loved ones inside hit close to home when Arthur described it.

How's this for an idea:

Arthur's mom and dad (who we never heard of yet) had the babies (2, 3?) and Voldemort went after them, killing everyone in the house.  (My son stays the night at age 3 with his grandmother on occasion, or she just "steals him" for a day sometimes).  Arthur is thus very upset over Dark Arts magic items, or the like because they are used by DE's (including Lucius).  Maybe even a DE gave one of the babies a "toy" that was more like a time bomb, instead of actually using spells?  

This would account for Arthur's campaign against the items, the lack of grandparents being mentioned, and like Neville's parents, some things are just not discussed among the kids--especially if it occurred before Percy was conceived---that was 20 years (almost) ago, at least, and this would have been earlier than that!

</Rambling>
Dee    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 17:09:04 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:09:04 -0000
Subject: The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <39C6C25E.192F025A@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8q86jg+m51t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1719

The whole thing about their ages is this. We don't know for sure 
about it.

Is it possible for Charlie to lead the Quidditch Team to victory one 
year and not the rest? Yes! If the non-championship teams had players 
who weren't as good as the championship team. The Gryffindor Team 
before Harry joined needed a good Seeker, which means (to me) that 
the other players were good and the Seeker position was what was 
holding them back. So when the Twins, Katie, and Angelina graduate 
and are replaced by players who aren't as good, it's quite possible 
that Harry won't be able to carry the team. Maybe the same thing 
happened to Charlie. OR maybe Charlie was injured and couldn't play 
Quidditch anymore. That would make sense because he could have had a 
promising professional career, but instead he's studying dragons in 
Romania. Another thing is that we don't know what year Charlie was 
when he won the Quidditch House Cup (the books only say it was 7 
years ago when Charlie was the Seeker)
he could have won it
anywhere 
from his second year to his seventh year. All we know is that he won 
it seven years before Book 3 happened. If Charlie won it in his 7th 
year, then Percy would have been starting Hogwarts at that time. So 
Percy is about seven years younger than Charlie IF Charlie won the 
House Cup in his seventh year. 

Again, these are big IFs.

Another thing...Ron and Ginny are one year apart age-wise...who's to 
say that Bill and Charlie aren't either?

;-) Milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> milz wrote:
> 
> > Harry being the youngest Quiddtich player in the last 100 years is
> > very important because first years aren't generally allowed to be 
on
> > the Quidditch teams. So, Charlie HAD to have been at least a 
second
> > year when he began playing on the team.
> 
> I agree with that much.  <g>
> 
> > Bill is the eldest Weasley son. Charlie is the second eldest. So 
if
> > the last time Bill was at Hogwarts was when he was a student (17-
18
> > years old) and if that was "five years ago", then Bill would be 
22-23
> > in Book 4.
> 
> This is where we start to diverge I think.  I don't think it's wise 
to
> assume that Bill *must* have been a student when he was there 5 yrs
> earlier.  In fact, that *can't* work now that I think about it 
more.  If
> he was there as a *student* 5 yrs before GoF, that's *one* year 
prior to
> SS (PS).  That doesn't work because Charlie is said to be younger 
than
> Bill.  So, Charlie would have still been at Hogwarts in SS if Bill 
had
> only been gone one year.  Let's see . . . . 5 yrs prior to spring 
of GoF
> (1995) is 1990.  So, if Bill left Hogwarts in 1990, Charlie could
> theoretically have left in the spring of 1991, with Ron & Harry 
starting
> Hogwarts in the fall of 1991.
> 
> *But,* that sure doesn't square with the chronology of Gryffindor 
not
> having won the Quidditch Cup in 7 yrs (which is since Charlie left).
> 
> I also think that it's not wise to think that Bill must have been a
> student when he was last at Hogwarts (5 yrs prior to GoF) since he's
> obviously there as an alumnus in GoF.  So, if 5 yrs after GoF, he 
goes
> back & comments "I haven't seen this place in 5 yrs," it would 
surely be
> a mistake to assume he'd last been a student in 1995 when he was 
there
> for the 3rd Task.  See what I mean?
> 
> > In Book 3, Bill would have been 21-22 years old AND the last time
> > Gryffindor won the House Quidditch Cup was 7 years ago. So Bill 
would
> > have been 14 to 15 years old when the Quidditch Cup was won (21-
22 -
> > 7 years = 14-15 years). Since Charlie had to be at least in his
> > second year to be eligible to play on the Quidditch Team, Charlie 
HAS
> > to be at the most 2 years younger than Bill.
> 
> So, under this logic, Charlie helped them win the Quidditch Cup as 
a 2nd
> or 3rd year, but then didn't win the Quidditch Cup for his last 4-5 
yrs
> at Hogwarts.  This doesn't make much sense to me, considering that 
it's
> said in several places that they haven't won the Quidditch Cup since
> Charlie left, which surely implies very strongly that they last won 
the
> Cup during his *final* year at Hogwarts.  If he was only good 
enough to
> help them win the Cup that one year, then why is he touted as such a
> great Quidditch player, a player who could have played for England 
if he
> hadn't gone off chasing dragons?  I think this means that they last 
won
> the Cup in 1987, which was Charlie's 7th year at Hogwarts.  This 
makes
> him about 24-25 in GoF.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Tue Sep 19 17:30:42 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:30:42 -0000
Subject: The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <39C6D17A.C2C2178C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8q87s2+83rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1720

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Well, there *could* have been more Weasleys, not yet mentioned, who 
fell to
> Voldemort, couldn't there? Wasn't it Arthur Weasley who explained 

However, if there were more Weasleys, then I think Molly and the kids 
would mention them.  The Weasleys are a close family, and they 
wouldn't forget siblings just because they were dead.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 19 17:32:54 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:32:54 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem & House Elf Magic
In-Reply-To: <200009190301.XAA20413@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>
Message-ID: <8q8806+adv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1721

Ken, 

I wonder what kind of powers Giants have that V. wants them on his 
side. Okay, okay, they're big and strong but there's probably some 
kind of curse that could stop them. 

House elves still make more sense to me to have on my side. They have 
their own brand of magic and the Ministry regulates them. The mere 
fact that the Ministry regulates them makes me suspect that House Elf 
magic is almost as powerful as or more powerful than wizarding folk 
magic, if they weren't they wouldn't be regulated, in my opinion.

Milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ken Waghorne" <waghorne at m...> 
wrote:
> I'll try to cover two topics here to reduce clutter.
> 
> Vicki Merriman wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, but I don't agree that Harry caused the "reversal."  Harry 
> > didn't actually cause the wand to regurgitate spells.  That was 
an 
> > effect of his holding his own in the fight, caused by his magical 
> > strength, perhaps, but not caused BY him.  i.e.  because the 
wands 
> > were brothers, it was tough to make them fight each other and 
that is 
> > what caused the regurgitation.  Dumbledore specifically stated 
that 
> > the reversal was a rare BUT KNOWN effect caused by the 
relationship 
> > of the wands.  It wasn't caused by harry's will at all.
> 
> But it was V's wand that regurgitated spells instead of Harry's.  I 
> think you have to give Harry some credit for that, since he did 
force 
> that ball of light (I forget the exact description, and the books 
are 
> loaned out) away from his wand and back down V's.  I have to 
> wonder what the Death Eaters thought while they were watching 
> that.  First Harry threw off the imperious curse and then that! 
> 
> milz wrote:
> > 
> > Are House Elves more powerful than the wizarding folk and that's 
> the 
> > reason why they are regulated? If they are powerful, then 
wouldn't 
> it 
> > make sense for Voldemort to try to get the House Elves on his 
> side?
> 
> My guess would be that V only sees House Elves as servants, and 
> doesn't think they could be of any possible use to him.  He does 
> seem to let quite a few things slip his mind in his quest for 
power. If 
> so, he'll be in for a shock when the HELF sends their forces over 
to 
> the good side just in the knick of time -- led by Dobby and Winky. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ken
> aka
> Hound Fan
> aka
> Boston...




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep 19 17:34:51 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:34:51 -0700
Subject: priori incantatem order
Message-ID: <39C7A30E.9EEBE75B@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1722

Hi--
	Thanks to everyone whose commented on my "it's actually not  phantom
James, it's  phantom Harry theory." I kind of like the phantom Voldy
theory too -- as to why it would help Harry, well, maybe Voldy's human
part contains Voldy's long-buried potential to be good. Okay, I admit
that's far-fetched.
	I don't think we can be sure it's James just because the narrative says
"his father" We're seeing him described from Harry's point of view, just
as we saw the false Moody.
.
One thing I don't believe is that it's just an author's mistake...I
believe JKR has indeed stated that there is a *very important clue* on
that page of GOF. 
	(Dobby cuts in here) "It was a clue, sir -- was giving you a clue!"
	In addition to all the stress laid on the way priori incantatem works
there are also internal clues that we should be paying attention to the
order of the attacks... (all references are American hardcover)
	SS chapter 15 p. 253  "Always the innocent are the first victims"
[Ronan, referring to the unicorn]
	SS chapter 17 p. 294 "I killed your father first" [Voldemort]
	GOF chapter 14, p. 216 >How Voldemort had killed Harry's father first.
	GOF chapter 37 p. 729 "They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's
back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- second -- Diggory was
the f--" [Malfoy]

	Notice that the description of the dead unicorn in SS is carefully
drawn to parallel and foreshadow the death of  Cedric in GOF,  and
Cedric, we are told, has unicorn hair in his wand -- and  (oh no!) so
does Ron (oh dear!)  No not Ron, PLEASE not Ron, I'll do anything...
Pippin



From vjmerri at iquest.net  Tue Sep 19 17:37:26 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:37:26 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem & House Elf Magic
In-Reply-To: <200009190301.XAA20413@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>
Message-ID: <8q888m+a0j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1723

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ken Waghorne" <waghorne at m...> > 
> Vicki Merriman wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, but I don't agree that Harry caused the "reversal."  Harry 
> > didn't actually cause the wand to regurgitate spells.  That was 
an 
> > effect of his holding his own in the fight, caused by his magical 
> > strength, perhaps, but not caused BY him.  i.e.  because the .
> 
> But it was V's wand that regurgitated spells instead of Harry's.  I 
> think you have to give Harry some credit for that, since he did 
force 

That's what I mean by "the effect of his holding his own, his magical 
strength."  It was V's wand that did it because Harry was stronger 
than he expected.  I absolutely give Harry credit for that, but that 
doesn't mean that Harry had any choice (conscious subconscious or 
otherwise) in which order the spells came out.  he just caused them 
to come out.

Vicki






From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 19 18:23:23 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:23:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British Schools - competition 
References: <8q7trh+tvs9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006401c02266$b350cf00$dd3b073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1724


----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Scruton <Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 3:39 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British Schools - competition
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> > This message has run on pretty long, and the only thing I'll add is
> a
> > question to our UK members.  Is the picture of Hogwarts being set
> up to
> > run on interhouse rivalry an accurate picture of British schools?

Absolutely...we had four houses, funnily enough named after the founders,
and it was murder between Collins and Johnson (the other two were kind of
the Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff houses) particularly since Johnson were arty
and Collins were sporty, so Collins always lagged slightly until the summer
term, when with all the athletics etc., they regularly took the lead and won
the house cup...

> In some boarding
> schools it means much as described in Hogwarts - children in the same
> house live together.  I do not know of any schools that organise
> teaching in separate houses but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

Mine did - for the first year all classes were taught in the house groups,
and apart from streamed classes, all subjects were taught in house groups
until GCSE set time - every year, you'd suddenly discover at least one
person whom you thought were new until some other, more observant person
would tell you that they'd been there since the year dot.  There were people
whose names I was uncertain of and didn't even have a conversation with
until sixth form...

Alix




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep 19 19:03:39 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:03:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
In-Reply-To: <8q87s2+83rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEFFCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1725

>>>>they wouldn't forget siblings just because they were dead.<<<<

Not necessarily FORGET, but the parents may find it too painful to speak of.
Anyone remember the "Waltons" TV show?  They had an episode where one of the
youngest kids learned he had a twin brother who died at birth.  This was so
traumatic for the mom that no one in the family had ever mentioned it
before, and since this was in the 1920's, no one had known she was expecting
twins.  She just came home from the hospital with one new baby, and nothing
more was said.



-----Original Message-----
From: Vicki Merriman [mailto:vjmerri at iquest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 10:31 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Well, there *could* have been more Weasleys, not yet mentioned, who
fell to
> Voldemort, couldn't there? Wasn't it Arthur Weasley who explained

However, if there were more Weasleys, then I think Molly and the kids
would mention them.  The Weasleys are a close family, and they
wouldn't forget siblings just because they were dead.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 19 20:20:24 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:20:24 -0500
Subject: Charlie's Age
References: <8q86jg+m51t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C7CA88.9B339C4C@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1726

Hi:

milz wrote:

> Is it possible for Charlie to lead the Quidditch Team to victory one
> year and not the rest? Yes! <snip> So when the Twins, Katie, and
> Angelina graduate and are replaced by players who aren't as good, it's
> quite possible that Harry won't be able to carry the team. Maybe the
> same thing happened to Charlie. OR maybe Charlie was injured and
> couldn't play
> Quidditch anymore. That would make sense because he could have had a
> promising professional career, but instead he's studying dragons in
> Romania. Another thing is that we don't know what year Charlie was
> when he won the Quidditch House Cup (the books only say it was 7
> years ago when Charlie was the Seeker)
he could have won it
> anywhere from his second year to his seventh year. All we know is that
> he won it seven years before Book 3 happened.

I agree that injuries or a bad lineup of other players could cause
Charlie some problems.  But, my point is that he wouldn't have had *any*
promise of a professional Quidditch career if he'd only helped his team
win the Quidditch Cup in his 2nd year.  IMO.  I just have a very hard
time imagining that professional Quidditch scouts would have looked at
Charlie and said "Oh Yeah, he's good enough for the national team -- he
won one season five years ago."

I think it's strongly implied that Gryffindo *at least* won the
Quidditch Cup in Charlie's last year (and probably several other years
in there too, maybe all of them from his 2nd to 7th year for all we
know).  "We haven't won the Quidditch Cup *since* Charlie left."  If it
wasn't his final year, wouldn't they have said something more like,
Gryffindor hasn't won since Charlie Weasley had such a good team and was
Seeker in his 2nd year.  In fact, a long-running successful amateur
career seems to me to be minimally required for someone to be considered
for a national team.  He just seems to be touted as an outstanding
Quidditch player -- Oliver Wood says Harry *might* turn out to be better
than Charlie.  Oliver also says that Charlie could have played for
England *if* he hadn't gone off chasing dragons.  That pretty strongly
says that it was Charlie's choice to forgo a professional Quidditch
career to go study dragons (rather than being forced to accept something
lesser because injuries had prevented him from a Quidditch career).

In any case, with all the other evidence, I still think Charlie left
Hogwarts sometime in the mid to late 1980s and is about 24-25 in GoF.

> If Charlie won it in his 7th year, then Percy would have been starting
> Hogwarts at that time. So Percy is about seven years younger than
> Charlie IF Charlie won the House Cup in his seventh year.

Yep.  That's about right --- Charlie is 24/25 in GoF and Percy is 18.

> Another thing...Ron and Ginny are one year apart age-wise...who's to
> say that Bill and Charlie aren't either?

That's actually exactly what I think, but I thought you were the one
making the argument yesterday that Charlie had to be at least 2 years
younger than Bill.  Maybe that was someone else.  I think it's pretty
likely that Bill & Charlie are somewhere between 1-2 yrs apart.  I think
Bill is 26/27, Charlie is 24/25 and Percy is 18  (GoF ages).

Look at all this discussion for you Simon!  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 20:30:49 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:30:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Timeline & apology.
References: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com> <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default>
Message-ID: <39C7CCF8.99AC5844@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1727

Heather Edmonds wrote:

> If older
> Weasley kids died rather than neonates surely it would also have been common
> knowledge in the wizarding world.

Well, presumably what happened to the Longbottoms was common knowledge, too, and
Harry didn't know about that. Ron may not, either. The Voldemort years are not
discussed a lot. And the younger Weasleys might not have been told yet.

> Once she was at home with one baby there may not have been any reason not to
> have anymore.

Um, Heather, do you have kids? Being at home with one baby is the BEST reason
not to have any more......[I am *kidding*, guys, I have threeeeeeeee]

--Amanda, irreverent parent




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 19 20:42:18 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:42:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q87s2+83rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C7CFAA.3E1D34C5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1728

Vicki Merriman wrote:

> However, if there were more Weasleys, then I think Molly and the kids
> would mention them.  The Weasleys are a close family, and they
> wouldn't forget siblings just because they were dead.

Forget, no. But discuss often, also no. It may be because they *are* close
that they don't discuss them--out of consideration for feelings, because the
ground's been covered, out of consideration for the guest who also lost so
much to Voldemort. Or because the younger ones have not yet been told.

I'm just saying it's a possibility. Given Arthur's graphic and emotional
description of the meaning of the Dark Mark, and the fact that there's a
"mortal peril" option (odd thing to have) on the clock but that Molly didn't
check it during the hoo-ha at the World Cup (didn't want to know? seen it
before?). In my family, I'd probably mention my brother to a friend, but
it's not something I bring out as idle chat. The moment might not have come
up. Harry's a *boy,* Ron's a *boy.* We all know men don't delve like women
do---how many men, when they get a phone call about a birth in the family,
remember to get the length, weight, or even name and date? And what's the
first thing women ask? I'm just saying this is a plausible explanation.

The Voldemort years are evidently too recent for History of Magic, and too
painful for casual conversation.

Incidentally, is there any corresponding wave of discord (for lack of a
better word) going on in England about the presumed time of Voldemort? Any
basis in actuality, on a period of turmoil? Since Muggles were murdered,
too..... Just wondering.

--Amanda




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 21:05:30 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:05:30 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q6b4r+9mai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q8keq+v0ml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1729

-I have been wondering if James could have tried to Avada Kedavra 
Voldy at the same time that V did it to him, thus destroying the 
house....BUT sorry to say that Kelly's theory doesn't work because 
the Prioi Incantatem is (as Penny said-) the reverse of spells cast 
and not necessarily the order of death.  

If you say that James was killed by the house falling in, then he 
wouldn't have come out of the wand at all because his death wouldn't 
be the direct cause of a Voldy curse....

Does this make sense or am I way off? (I'm saying this in assuming 
that a curse can only effect One person, therefore the curse of V. on 
Harry couldn't have bounced back on James, and James' death still 
wouldn't be caused by the curse...)

Scott



> > kill Lily, who was trying to protect Harry.  I'm supposing that 
> Lily 
> > was killed and Vold then throws the curse to kill Harry.  At the 
> same 
> > time, James throws his own curse.  The two curses colliding(?) 
are 
> > what destroys the house.  The house falling in kills James.(?)  
So, 
> > the first curse Vold throws at James doesn't kill him, the curse 
he 
> > throws at Lily does kill her, then James is killed by the next 
> > curse.  So, James is cursed again after Lily (the curse to kill 
> > Harry) therefore he would come out of the wand before Lily.  I 
> > believe Lily, who was so good at charms, placed some sort of 
> > protective/love/"good" charm on Harry, maybe having something to 
do 
> > with blood like someone said.  Perhaps this protected Harry, both 
> > from Vold's curse and the falling house.  This is also what gave 
> > Harry protection in SS so Vold/Quirrell couldn't touch him, and 
why 
> > Vold wanted Harry's blood in GoF.  If James could throw curses 
the 
> > way Harry can, this could explain why Moody/Crouch brings up the 
> > unforgivable curses in the first place.  He wanted to see how 
they 
> > affected Harry, at least the Imperius, he obviously couldn't try 
> the 
> > other two without making Dumble suspicious.  Perhaps he wanted to 
> > learn if Harry could throw the curses, which could explain why 
Vold 
> > still hasn't managed to kill Harry.  Vold still doesn't know all 
> the 
> > reasons he can't kill Harry.  Crouch Jr. wanted to help discover 
> > these reasons.   
> > 
> > Okay, I think that's it...tell me what you guys think.
> > 
> > Kelley




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Sep 19 21:19:38 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:19:38 +0100
Subject: Weasley Kids, Crabbe and Goyle, schools, olympics, PCGE
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEICCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1730

"I also am intrigued by the analysis that the Weasley's had fewer kids
during the reign of Voldy, or the suggestion they may have even lost some in
that period.  I had previously proposed a general wizard low birth rate
during The Bad Years, but didn't detail analyze the age/date clues."

As I pointed out in my post yesterday, it seems that Arthur and Molly had
more kids during the reign of Voldemort. Percy, Fred, George and Ron were
definitely born during the period when he was gaining most support. Also,
depending on when she was born, Ginny was probably conceived during this
period- maybe even born during the reign of terror.

Maybe, due to quite a few wizarding families being killed off, the Weasley's
decided to embark on a one family repopulation of the wizarding world. Or
maybe all the kids are adopted, with the one constraint that Arthur and
Molly put on adoption being that the kids must have red hair.

Have I made enough silly suggestions, or should I aim for a few more?

"Crabb & Goyle's first names are divulged on the train in Book III i
believe."

PoA Chapter 5. Vincent and Gregory.

"That being said, I believe the great majority of state schools in Britain
are like the one attended by my children - it gets along perfectly well with
no house system at all and no other system of internal competition."

The Upper school (13+) that I went to did not have a house system but
grouped classes together for sports day (one class from each year group).
This meant that it was really hard to cheer for others in your team, as the
likely hood was that you did not know them very well.

"Some people who feel this way seem to think that the UK's worth is
determined by how many medals are won at the Olympics and whether or not
England, Scotland or Wales qualify for the football world cup.  This is
clearly rubbish - the UK's worth is quite obviously determined by the
performance the England Cricket team!"

Well we have won as many gold medals as last time (an amazing total of one)
so this Olympics is a fabulous success following on the back of the
cricketers performance this summer. We must be the best sporting country in
the world. This is probably bar Equatorial Guinea with their swimmer Eric, I
hope you all saw (or heard about the race) in question.

"NB: to all UK dwellers do not think PGCE is an easy option. Basically you
do tyhe 4yrs of a BEd compressed into one.  It's killing me."

Good luck for the rest of the course. I know a few people doing the course
and they have also commented on how hard it is.

Simon




From warmsley at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 19 21:50:54 2000
From: warmsley at btinternet.com (Warmsley)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:50:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] British schools
Message-ID: <01c02283$af301d00$421e7bd5@warmsley>

No: HPFGUIDX 1731

>> This message has run on pretty long, and the only thing I'll
add is a
>> question to our UK members.  Is the picture of Hogwarts being
set up to
>> run on interhouse rivalry an accurate picture of British
schools?  Upon
>> thinking about it, I wonder at Dumbledore a little for
running a school
>> structure that seems so fraught with the potential for
causing
>> envy/competitiveness/competition to ferment into bad feeling.
>
>Okay. I will preface this with I Am Not British. I've never
lived there. But
>I've always gotten the feeling that the British are much less
hung up than
>Americans on the belief that life's gonna (gotta) be fair. And
they allow
>their children to experience this truth, that life happens and
it sometimes
>sucks, a little earlier than Americans do (if Americans ever
get around to
>telling their children this at all). The "hands off" approach
to operating
>Hogwarts is one way of giving its students a measure of Life
Studies, as it
>were, with the teachers there as moderators rather than
enforcers.
>

I know that at my british public (a quick explanation: public =
private, state = public. brits, eh?)
school, no-one gives a damn about house stuff. Maybe fifty years
ago...
Amusingly, my house, Kingsley, is named after Charles Kingsley,
an Old Boy of the school that wrote "Onwards Christian Soldiers"
(the hymn) and is quoted in my RS book as an example of how
racism was considered perfectly normal by most people a century
or two ago (something along the lines of brains being smaller,
or some similar tosh).


>This agrees with the European attitudes toward children and
alcohol, too.
>Kids who have never been allowed near alcohol often find it
alluring and are
>bowled over by their first experiences with it. And kids who
have never been
>allowed to understand that sometimes you get stood on and
that's just the
>way it is, are often bowled over by their first experience of
the real
>world.
>

That's very true. But it's more of a continental attitude. Here,
most (young) people drink to get drunk. And it's spreading to
Europe too.

>This, from an overprotective mom. Sigh. Knowing what's
intelligent and doing
>it are so very different sometimes.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

Jeremy





From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 22:05:09 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:05:09 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem/ Weasley kids
In-Reply-To: <8q8keq+v0ml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q8nul+872g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1732

>> Does this make sense or am I way off? (I'm saying this in 
assuming  that a curse can only effect One person, therefore the 
curse of V. on Harry couldn't have bounced back on James, and James' 
death still  wouldn't be caused by the curse...)>>

I am not sure if you could even assume that a curse could effect only 
one person even under *normal* conditions--I can't think of any 
reason why it couldn't.  But in any case, any "rules" of magic 
probably went out the window when Voldy tried to kill Harry.  
Remember, there has to be some explanation for the destruction of the 
house as well, which wouldn't normally be caused by Avada Kedavra.  
Whatever was going on was definitely out of the ordinary.  So it is 
entirely possible that when Voldy's curse rebounded on him, it killed 
James as well, as a side effect.  (That, assuming that James was stil 
alive to be killed, which I still personally don't think was the case-
-I'm just saying that the theory that James really died after Lily is 
feasible).
As far as the Weasley childbirth gap goes, who says there has to be 
an explanation at all? Even if Arthur and Molly were shaggging like 
rabbits, whether or not Molly gets pregnant is pretty much a matter 
of chance.  And when you're dealing with a statistically low number 
of children such as the Weasleys have (You have to hit 30 or so 
before the number can be considered large by a statistician), it is 
not unlikely that the distribution of their ages seems clumped; it 
could be just entirely due to luck.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 19 22:11:38 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:11:38 -0000
Subject: Dept. of Mysteries (was Re: Dumbledore's Mistake)
In-Reply-To: <8q74be+7rv2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q8oaq+pput@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1733

>
Hmmm, lets guess what the dept. of Mysteries does...well it's 
probably a mystery! This is a great coincedence because I was JUST 
reading this in GoF, (Looking for the part that Ebony was asking 
about, someone looking like Snape, and I didn't see it...).  Anywho 
this dept of Mysteries (DoM), could it be where James and Lily 
worked? 

What do we know about the DoM? Not much. We know that Augustus 
Rookwood was working for Voldemort from inside this dept, and that is 
is a part of the ministry of magic.
 
There are two basic interpretations of what the DoM might do.  1) 
Nobody knows...that's why it is a mystery  2)  They department works 
on solving and discovering ancient mysteries, this could be like any 
profession from Archeologist to Historian...(Maybe the Author of 
"Hogworts: A History" worked in this dept...

Scott

KELLEY WROTE
>
>I didn't notice that about the McKinnons.  And, didn't JKR say the 
> revelation of Lily's and James' "jobs" would be important?  More so 
> than just why does Harry have so much money, anyway.  That's quite 
a 
> good point.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the Department 
of 
> Mysteries?  Isn't that what it's called?  Someone in GoF was 
supposed 
> to have worked here, and no one knew what he did, or what this 
> department even does, right? 





From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 19 22:18:59 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:18:59 -0000
Subject: World War Parallels
Message-ID: <8q8ooj+ords@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1734

I've been meaning to post (since I had earlier mentioned a couple or 
three mild parallels) a rather different thought I had over the last 
few days:  Try this one for parallels.

"Vold War I"  - ended when he disappeared upon attacking Harry

"Vold War II" - the one that is coming in the remaining books.....

What we have read so far is the "Between the Wars" period, with 
Voldemort (enemy) rearming and recovering the power that was knocked 
down, but not destroyed, as originally thought, at the end of the 
First Vold War/First World War.   Other people than I have remarked 
that we thought of Neville Chamberlain in character, in the portrait 
of Fudge we get at the end of GoF (I was not even the first person to 
say it on the list, although I certainly thought it when I read GoF). 
(By the way, I have acquired an interesting analytic book lately that 
suggests Chamberlain pretty much *had* to appease, to buy time for 
Britain to re-arm).

The previously thought-of WWII parallels, of course, include the
"Pure Blood"/Aryan kind of thing exemplified by Draco Malfoy's 
attitude (and hair color).  

-Brooks




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 19 22:27:08 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:27:08 -0000
Subject: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q8keq+v0ml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8q8p7s+69il@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1735

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> -I have been wondering if James could have tried to Avada Kedavra 
> Voldy at the same time that V did it to him, thus destroying the 
> house....BUT sorry to say that Kelly's theory doesn't work because 
> the Prioi Incantatem is (as Penny said-) the reverse of spells cast 
> and not necessarily the order of death.  

That's right, (see my post #1679), but I still believe James was 
cursed a second time which causes the order they come out of the 
wand, not that Harry causes the change in order. 
 
> If you say that James was killed by the house falling in, then he 
> wouldn't have come out of the wand at all because his death 
wouldn't 
> be the direct cause of a Voldy curse....

This is true.  If Vold was deliberately cursing Harry, something must 
have occurred either right then or right before for V to curse James 
instead.
 
> Does this make sense or am I way off? (I'm saying this in assuming 
> that a curse can only effect One person, therefore the curse of V. 
on 
> Harry couldn't have bounced back on James, and James' death still 
> wouldn't be caused by the curse...)
> 
> Scott

I'm not sure if this could be, since Pettigrew killed what? 13 people 
with a curse.  And, even if the curse were intended for a certain 
individual, we've seen evidence that it can affect someone else.  
(When Malfoy makes Herm's teeth bigger, he was aiming for Harry, 
right?  And Ron, when he tried to curse Malfoy when M called Herm a 
mugblood, and Ron instead ended up spitting up slugs.)  Suppose Vold 
actually kills James with the first curse, then kills Lily with his 
second curse.  Then when he's about to curse Harry, Harry's Patronus, 
(James as Prongs) gets in the way to protect Harry (like in PoA), and 
because of this the curse rebounds onto V, which destroys the house.  
James as Patronus takes the full blow of the curse the way NH Nick 
takes the biggest blow from the basilisk, and Justin doesn't die from 
it in CoS.  This third curse would hit James and he would still be 
cursed a second time, thus coming out of the wand before Lily.  
However it happened, I think JKR will use a device we've already seen 
to make it so.  Or may add a new device in the next books, but I 
really believe she'll refer back to something to explain this event. 

Kelley




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 19 22:37:05 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:37:05 -0000
Subject: Potter restriction lifted by Toronto area school board
Message-ID: <8q8pqh+2and@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1736

http://news.excite.com/news/r/000919/15/odd-potter-dc




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 18:50:18 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:50:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Childhood Wizards
References: <8pkupq+p75h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03a601c0228a$f07c8ee0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1737


----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Scruton <Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 10:59 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Childhood Wizards


> I understand that JKR has said in an interview that Hogwarts is the
> only magical school in the UK - if that is true, then there must be
> undcover witches and wizards in muggle schools to supervise the
> education of those children who don't get to Hogwarts (I'm sure that
> more than one character has said at some time or another that they
> weren't sure that they were good enough to get into Hogwarts).

I don't know about that - if a child has any magical powers at all, I think
Hogwarts would want to have them.  They can't risk untrained witches and
wizards creating havoc in the Muggle world after all.  As for the "not sure
about getting in to Hogwart's comments", it's only kids who make them, I
think.  I can imagine witch/wizardlings worrying that they might not get in
and have to suffer the indignity of being a Squib.  But as for Muggle
children... I can't imagine any Muggle child with magical abilities being
ignored.  They may never be top of the class, but they'll certainly need
some training, no matter how bad they are.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 19:03:08 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:03:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] stars, Lily and James, Nearly Headless Nick, and the guy on the back
References: <8pn7ck+19h5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03a701c0228a$f1e63100$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1738


----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Brown <find_sam at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 7:38 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] stars, Lily and James, Nearly Headless Nick, and
the guy on the back


> In the Forbidden Forest, Harry meets the centaurs who, instead of
> giving an sort of straight answer, repeat 'Mars is bright tonight' -
> like Hagrid I found this very annoying! I was wondering if anyone
> knew the astrological significance of Mars being bright or in
> prominence. My own theory was that Mars was named after the Roman god
> of war, so perhaps it symbolises the oncoming war between Good and
> Evil (or at least Our Side and Their Side).

Mars symbolises, among other things, aggression and violence.  I believe it
represented the attack on the unicorn that night, but may also have referred
to the forthcoming Harry/Quirrell battle.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 19:31:07 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:31:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's cleverness
References: <8psdmg+ulbj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03a801c0228a$f3345be0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1739


----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Brown <find_sam at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 6:56 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's cleverness


> There are more, but my favourite by far is 'Unfogging the Future' by
> Cassandra Vablatsky, Cassandra being a soothsayer of classical
> mythology.

Cleverer than you realise!  There was a well-known Trelawney-esque
medium/occultist in the 19th century called Helena Blavatsky.  Which is
where the surname came from.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 19:40:18 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:40:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs...
References: <8psm6t+pt5a@eGroups.com> <006c01c01f1e$a8380f20$49d9d2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <03a901c0228a$f47c6c40$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1740


----- Original Message -----
From: Denise <drohlede at neo.rr.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:10 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs...


> How much (less?) magic does a person have until he classifies as a squib?
Could you have only one ability or two (like one or two spells?) and still
be squib, or is it an all or nothing thing?

I think it's an all-or-nothing thing as far as magic goes.  If you can do
any kind of magic, you're a witch/wizard.  You may not be up to the advanced
stuff or you may be better at some things than others, but you'll be able to
do the basics reasonably well.  Squibs and Muggles, OTOH, can't do magic at
all.  I don't think there's anything in between the two.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 19:50:16 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:50:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changes in my egroup
References: <v02140b32b5e844044d26@[140.254.113.101]>
Message-ID: <03aa01c0228a$f5db6000$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1741

> >I can't seem to figure out how to set up my egroup so that everyone's
> >messages don't come to my e-mail address.

Either unsubscribe, or log in at the egroups website and set this list to
the web only/no mail option.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 20:25:33 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:25:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily
References: <8ptnq5+d2lv@eGroups.com> <OE47Hprp5yLZ86BSqEM00000986@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <03ab01c0228a$f7544460$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1742


> In Real Life. teachers 'fiddle' the results somewhat so that they get the
outcome they want. I do recall my mother telling me she was madea  prefect
becuase she was a dilitory and unruly student and this was a con to get her
to behave. Dunno that Dumbledore would do this, or that such manipulations
would extend to Head Boy-ness.

Highly unlikely they would take that risk with the Head Kids.  Anyhow, I
think the Head Boy and Girl need to have been prefects first, and they'd
hardly put someone who couldn't cope with that in charge.  However, it is
possible that James got made a prefect in an attempt to make him more
responsible, and it worked.  Also bear in mind that it was James who saved
Snape's life after Sirius sent him down the Whomping Willow passageway to
Lupin-as-werewolf.  Meaning he can't have been that badly behaved to begin
with.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 21:06:49 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:06:49 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A writer's power of imagination (was: Abusive behavior)
References: <F81vJ1xKjtgZe0J64TB000068f9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <03ac01c0228a$f89c54c0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1743


> I have to agree with Peg.  I've read nothing to suggest that JKR had
> anything other than a happy childhood.  That's not to say that she
*wasn't*
> abused, but every indication is that she was not.  She's a powerful
writer,
> and I don't think it's necessarily true that she would have needed to
> experience child abuse first-hand in order to write about it effectively.
> There are a number of explanations that run the gamut from (a) she *was*
an
> abused child herself (most extreme); (b) she had friends or close
relatives
> who lived through this experience; (c) she worked with abused children in
> some capacity at some time in her life; (d) she read extensively on the
> subject as Peg suggests is possible, conducted interviews, etc.; or (e)
she
> has no more than general knowledge of this problem but was able to
translate
> it effectively into her books nonetheless (the other extreme).  There are
> probably a number of other options between my (a) & (e).
>
> While I think there *are* possibly some experiences that are best conveyed
> by an author if they have some personal experience with the matter, I
don't
> think this is one of them.

You know, this is probably going to get me called all sorts of things but
nevertheless...

I do not think that the Dursley's treatment of Harry was derived from actual
research into child abuse.  Yes, it almost certainly qualifies as such.  BUT
Harry spends 99% of his time during the books at Hogwarts.  And once he has
some magic up his sleeve, he manages to use all sorts of devious tricks to
get the Dursleys behaving nicely to him.  Their behaviour is not a central
part of the books, the fight against Voldy is.  And I think that the
Dursleys were lifted, not from abuse accounts, but from Roald Dahl (in
particular, Matilda).  They and their actions are just too comical to be
taken seriously.  I've heard real accounts of child abuse and the two don't
tally that closely.  It's a good plot device, and a classic theme, to have
an ill-treated child discover their true identity and come into their power
as a result.  It doesn't necessarily follow that JKR had to study abuse
accounts to do it.  I don't think she intended it to be a gritty depiction
of child abuse, more a good plot device and way of establishing sympathy for
Harry from the outset.

As for how it went unnoticed at school...

My favourite theory is that Vernon is a Freemason and is using his contacts
to keep Social Services off his back.  : )  Let's face it, he's the type to
have joined them.

(Sorry to offend any real life masons on the list, but you've got to admit -
that sort of thing does occur from time to time.)

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 21:13:42 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:13:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 1.Fudge, 2.Hogwarts Founders
References: <39C54204.2B181950@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <03ad01c0228a$fa0c1160$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1744


> I think the surnames of the Founders are not family names, as family
> names hadn't been invented yet (for example, Harry's history textbook
> told of a witch who was burned 47 times: Wendilyn the Weird, not
> Wendilyn Weisenheimer). Instead, they were epithets, nicknames ('surnom'
> in French) given to them by their associates.

I don't know, I think the nobility had family names back then.

> 1. Gryffindor
>
> I just figured out a few days ago that the name Gryffindor is a merger
> of GRUFFYDD (Griffith) and GLYNDWR (glendower). Both are Welsh names. (I
> posted that on hpa but no one responded).
>
> If he's Gruffydd Glyndwr rather than Godric Gryphon d'Or, then he's
> Welsh rather than Norman, which is much more suitable for someone
> founding a wizarding school in Britain circa 990 CE ('more than a
> thousand years ago'), considering that the Norman Conquest was 1066.

Yes, but if Welsh, where does Godric come from?  It sounds like a Saxon name
to me.  Maybe he's the son of a Welsh father (inheriting the Gryffindor
surname) and an English mother (who gave him an Anglo-Saxon first name).

> Ffor Gruffydd Glyndwr to have allowed his name to be changed to Godric
> Gryffindor, he must have been excessively tolerant of the Sassenachs who
> can't
> pronounce a decent language....

The Welsh call us Sais, not Sassenachs.  Although I think both words mean
"Saxon".



Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 21:33:50 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:33:50 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Brother and Sister??
References: <8q55tk+j50o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03ae01c0228a$fb636400$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1745


> It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if he
> is actually her brother or half-brother? That would make a little
> sense because he said she didn't have to die.  But he had killed a
> lot of people so why bother telling her she didn't have to die?
> Voldy's mom died during his birth, but what if Lily was born before
> Voldy........

Several reasons why this ain't so.

1) The age gap - Voldy was at Hogwarts fifty years before Harry in Book 2,
so must have been born in 1927.  Lily is therefore unlikely to be older, and
can't be younger unless she's only a half-sister.

2) If she's a daughter of Voldy's father, her parents could not possibly
have approved of her witch powers, yet we are told they did.

3) Voldy killed his father while only a teenager, not long after WWII.  Lily
could therefore only have been a baby at the time, and this is assuming she
had Harry relatively late.  I don't believe this is the case, as Sirius,
Remus and Snape don't seem more than forty at most, making all that crowd
born in the fifties at the earliest.

4) From what Petunia tells us, Lily and herself were not orphaned and knew
their parents.  Given the age ranges possible for them to be in their
childbearing years in 1980, they can't have been born much before 1950.


Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 21:58:36 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:58:36 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chronology
References: <8q58m2+1evi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03af01c0228a$fcbc3d40$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1746


> Hi--
> Has any one put together a chronology of the books? I would love
> to do this but  don't want to reinvent the wheel. Or do people think
> this would unearth contradictions and spoil the magic.
> Pippin

I think it's a good idea, myself.  It may unearth contradictions, but JKR
almost certainly has one figured out herself, given that so much of the
books' narrative depends on past events.  And I think she expects readers to
devise one eventually.  I don't think it'll spoil the magic, especially as
it can only concern events we already know about.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 22:10:47 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:10:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potions - can Muggles make them?
References: <8q5pho+jfun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03b101c0228b$001a5c60$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1747


>  Neville is not entirely a squib, despite what he says: even if his
> magic may work at self-protection and herb lore better than anything
> else.  Thus he may have enough of an 'inherent magic field' that
> potions he brews do still work, when he does it right.


I think Neville's awfulness at Potions is more down to Snape picking on him
and his resultant terror as soon Snape enters the room than a lack of
magical power.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 19 22:07:03 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:07:03 +0100
Subject: Chronology (was Brother and Sister??)
References: <8q55tk+j50o@eGroups.com> <39C6201A.68FA35EC@texas.net>
Message-ID: <03b001c0228a$feaa9fc0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1748

WARNING:  This email contains an HP chronology with lots of spoilers for CoS
and GoF.  Don't read unless you've read all the books so far!

> > It has been sugested that Voldy may be Lily's father, but what if he
> > is actually her brother or half-brother?
>
> Well, Tom Riddle the teenager showed up to kill his parents fifty years
> before the start of book 4; the groundskeeper who beat the rap was a
recent
> veteran of WWII. [This makes Hagrid, who was a few years behind Tom in
> school, older than I'd imagined, but Hagrid does remember James et al. at
> school, after all]. And Dumbledore was a professor at Hogwarts when Tom
and
> Hagrid were there, but was headmaster when James and Lily were. So I'm
> thinking we definitely have two different generations, here. Probably
> someone else has worked out the chronology better.

Here's mine:


1927 - Voldemort born.

1930 - Hagrid born.

1943 - Chamber of Secrets opened and Hagrid expelled.

1945 - Voldemort graduates

1946/7  Voldemort kills his father's family.

1950 - 1955  Snape, Lily, James, Petunia, Lupin, Wormtail and Sirius all
born.

1961 - 66 Marauders (this includes Snape and Lily for convenience, even
though they
weren't) start school.

1970 - 1981 The Voldemort Years.

1967 - 73 The Marauders leave school.  Lily and James marry not
long afterwards.

July 1980 - Dudley Dursley and Harry Potter born.

1981 - The Potters go into hiding.  Wormtail betrays them to Voldemort who
goes after them with the results we all know of.  Wormtail also frames
Sirius for the betrayal, and for his own murder.  Sirius ends up in Azkaban,
Harry with the Dursleys.  Jury still out on who got the worst deal.  : )

1983 - 5  Group of Death Eaters, including Barty Coruch Jnr, attempt to
revive Voldemort and torture the Longbottoms for info.  They get sent to
Azkaban.

1984 - 6 Barty Crouch Snr frees his son from Azkaban but keeps him prisoner
until GoF.

1991 - Harry starts Hogwarts.  PS/SS takes place.

1992/3 - CoS

1993/4 - PoA

1994/5 - GoF

1998 - Harry due to graduate.  Voldemort presumably meets a sticky end.


I'm open to comments and sugestions for imrpoving it.  I know a lot of the
dates are pretty vague, but I believe the timescale is about right.  It
would also help if I knew how old Harry's parents were when he was born, as
that would sort out the dates of their schooldays and birthdates.

Jinx






From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 19 22:36:10 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:36:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family
References: <8q87s2+83rj@eGroups.com> <39C7CFAA.3E1D34C5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00b601c0228a$03c2c060$dd3b073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1749


----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The gap in the Weasley family

> Incidentally, is there any corresponding wave of discord (for lack of a
> better word) going on in England about the presumed time of Voldemort? Any
> basis in actuality, on a period of turmoil? Since Muggles were murdered,
> too..... Just wondering.

Not that I presume to make a link between the two things, but the 1970s and
80s were when the Troubles in Northern Ireland really became obvious - this
was when the PTA came in, British troops were sent out there, Bloody Sunday,
miscarriages of justice when people were wrongly imprisoned for crimes they
didn't commit in witchhunts where the most important thing was not to find
the perp but just to prosecute anyone, deaths, bombings, political
assassinations...fairly tumultuous times.

Alix




From gypsycaine at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 22:52:36 2000
From: gypsycaine at hotmail.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:52:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dept. of Mysteries (was Re: Dumbledore's Mistake)
References: <8q8oaq+pput@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE49qDCZx4FR0rmTIVv00000885@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1750

I sorta like the idea of PoU and think of the DoM as something along those lines...

Sorta a M-6 section!

Dee



There are two basic interpretations of what the DoM might do.  1) 
Nobody knows...that's why it is a mystery  2)  They department works 
on solving and discovering ancient mysteries, this could be like any 
profession from Archeologist to Historian...(Maybe the Author of 
"Hogworts: A History" worked in this dept...

Scott




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Sep 19 23:32:36 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:32:36 -0700
Subject: Potions and Neville (was: Potions - can Muggles make them?)
In-Reply-To: <8q50ap+gkno@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000919155059.02103140@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1751

At 12:03 PM 9/18/00 +0000, Blaise wrote:
>What exactly is magical about potions?  Obviously the ingredients are
>not from normal Muggle plants and animals, but if a Muggle had all
>the ingredients, could he make a potion?  Where does the magic come
>into potions?

I'm guessing the cauldron must be heated by a magical flame.

>I notice that Neville often gets his potions wrong, but this seems to
>be from following the instructions wrongly rather than any innate
>lack of magic.

If I may "import" a thread from alt.fan.harry-potter, does anyone
here think that Neville may have trouble remebering things because
someone altered his memory, a la Bertha Jorkins, and maybe once
the curse is broken he'll go on to great things?



                                                 -- Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 23:42:52 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:42:52 -0000
Subject: Chronology (was Brother and Sister??)
In-Reply-To: <03b001c0228a$feaa9fc0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8q8tls+3dtl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1752

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jinx" <jinxster at c...> wrote:
an HP chronology 
> July 1980 - Dudley Dursley and Harry Potter born.
> 
Nice chronology.  The only problem I can find is that Dudley is a few 
months older than Harry, IIRC.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 00:34:17 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:34:17 -0000
Subject: My Post for today....House Elf Magic and Ron among other things...
Message-ID: <8q90m9+3fmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1753

Trying to condense my this information into one posts so that I don't 
bore you all to much.  Here it goes...

RON  (AND ENVY, SORT OF): Great post Peg! Of all the envy in the 
books I would say the worst would be Ron's.  I don't think I could 
deal with it, that is being constantly overshadowed by others...I am 
still (sadly) in the camp for Ron possibly betraying Harry and his 
family, (at least he is far more likely to betray the Weasely's than 
Percy).  Now to make y'all hate me more I even think that it COULD 
lead to Ron's death...

Wait; before you totally ostracize me I have reasons.  I make good 
grades and I set high academic standards, but if I don't live up to 
them I only have to answer to myself.  There are others that I know 
that have older siblings and always try to live up to that legacy.  
("If older brother always made A's in Chemistry then I HAVE too.")  
Now more times than not this can come from parents, and while I just 
don't see the Weaselys as judging one child by another I think Ron 
probably does this to himself.

While some might say that going over to "Their Team" isn't in Ron's 
character then I'm asking what books you read!! I don't think that 
Ron would willingly be a Voldemort supporter but I do think that in 
his quest for some type of noteriety he might compromise his values 
in a way that could help out the big V.

Yes, I think that Ron has a lot of Envy inside of him and not just 
for his siblings but for Harry and Hermione too.

KILLING HERMIONE?: Someone posted that JKR wanted to know why no one 
ever asked her to kill Hermione....Well here's my anwser.  "Hermione 
is just to much of a logical thinker, and yet she has both common AND 
book sense, she isn't as "wishy washy" as Ron and even MORE 
importantly if I actually got the chance to talk to JKR I wouldn't 
waste my time asking about Hermione...

HOUSE ELF MAGIC: I too agree that the HE's have a magic all their 
own...and one that is at LEAST as powerful as wizards.  Firstly they 
can do magic without wands and there are precious few things that 
wizards don't need wands for.  Secondly- They KNOW.  That is as 
simple as I can put it, but they know things that could save or 
destroy wizarding families....such as the Malfoys for the latter.
Thirdly, in CoS Lucius is thrown down the steps "by" Dobby but more 
importantly he then leaves, as if Dobby could do "sirius" harm to him.

I really like the HE's and I hope that Dumbledore does get them on 
his side they would be a powerful and loyal ally. (oh and fourthly 
they are probably the most sentient creatures after humans in the 
series...)


Hmmm, looking back I feel I may of Ramble a bit much, but as always 
please comment!

Scott







From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Sep 20 01:14:53 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:14:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Timeline & apology.
References: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com> <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default> <39C7CCF8.99AC5844@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002101c022a0$5c1585c0$a6af20cc@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1754

> Um, Heather, do you have kids? Being at home with one baby is the BEST
reason
> not to have any more......[I am *kidding*, guys, I have threeeeeeeee]
>
> --Amanda, irreverent parent

Just had to agree with this.....(I have three as well, but spaced 3 years
apart...)

carole






From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 01:43:46 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:43:46 -0000
Subject: Chronology (was Brother and Sister??)
In-Reply-To: <03b001c0228a$feaa9fc0$108f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8q94oi+mq6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1755

Good chronology.  It fits with how I had been thinking of things 
(i.e. I had always figured Voldy was at Hogwarts circa WWII).  Now 
how can we work in our estimates of the Weasleys' ages?




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 02:11:45 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:11:45 -0000
Subject: Dept. of Mysteries (was Re: Dumbledore's Mistake)
In-Reply-To: <OE49qDCZx4FR0rmTIVv00000885@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8q96d1+j0e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1756

Denise,

the Dept. of Mysteries may be archaeologists and historians, but, as 
secretive as they are, they are probably dealing with some dangerous 
ancient mysteries, mysteries with serious magical implications -- 
ancient, dangerous knowledge, old, powerful curses, or old and 
forgotten magical objects.  That's one branch. the other might be 
involved in the "black" work. (Do wizards drink martinis that are 
shaken, not stirred? Does Walther make wands? Does Aston-Martin make 
broomsticks?)




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Sep 20 02:20:03 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:20:03 -0000
Subject: Chronology - Please Help!
Message-ID: <8q96sj+16rb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1757

There is a chronology started in the Database section. Thanks to Jinx 
for supplying a lot of the starting materials. Please add new info 
whenever you figure something out!

Anyone in the group can post new records, but only the group managers 
and I can edit or delete. Don't be afraid to post corrections in the 
data base itself -- I'll come in occasionally and tidy it up.

Thanks
Jim Flanagan




From gypsycaine at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 03:07:56 2000
From: gypsycaine at hotmail.com (Denise)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:07:56 -0400
Subject: Just in case I am right with the DE's and Molly's children.
Message-ID: <001601c022af$fc3189a0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1758

I found this in my email, and thought it might be fitting as it's sorta on topic of what I posted earlier tonight, about Molly and Arthur not talking about the murdered "in-between" children that I speculated about.

Odd how life works, eh?

Dee


DEAR ABBY:

My youngest daughter was murdered 10 years ago. I carry a
poem that I found in a newsletter published by the Kansas
City Chapter of Parents of Murdered Children. When the
situation arises, I show it to people. It speaks for itself,
and has been a godsend for me.

Abby, do you think it would comfort others who have lost
loved ones and feel alone? -- MARYANNE HUGHES, COLUMBUS,
OHIO

DEAR MARYANNE:

I offer my sympathy for the tragic loss of your daughter.
Thank you for sending the poem. Printing it may help people
to realize that it's not hurtful to talk about a loved one
who died -- it's comforting. Read on:

PLEASE ASK

by Barbara Taylor Hudson

Someone asked me about you today.
It's been so long since anyone has done that.
It felt so good to talk about you,
To share my memories of you,
To simply say your name out loud.
She asked me if I minded talking about
What happened to you ...
Or would it be too painful to speak of it.
I told her I think of it every day
And speaking about it helps me to release
The tormented thoughts whirling around in my head.
She said she never realized the pain
Would last this long ...
She apologized for not asking sooner.
I told her, "Thanks for asking."
I don't know if it was curiosity
Or concern that made her ask,
But told her, "Please do it again sometime ...
Soon."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 20 03:16:27 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 03:16:27 -0000
Subject: Timeline & apology and Lexicon updates
In-Reply-To: <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default>
Message-ID: <8q9a6b+17h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1759

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Heather Edmonds" <Heather at h...> 
wrote:
> First apologies to Steve Vander Ark for getting him  mixed up with 
Steve
> Bates in attributing the lexicon

LOL! Heather, I had to go back and read messages I'd missed to find 
out what you were even talking about. 

I don't care if you know my name...I just want you to like the web 
site :)

BTW, I added the first of what will be (I hope) a large selection of 
fan artwork to the Lexicon tonight. Shawn Cowan has kindly given me 
permission to include some of his excellent drawings and may be 
creating new ones specifically for the Lexicon. If you haven't seen 
his depiction of Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, you need to drop on by 
and have a look. It's on the Malfoy family page (Wizarding World => 
Wizard Folk => the Malfoy Family).

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 20 04:26:09 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:26:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potions and Neville (was: Potions - can Muggles make  them?)
References: <4.2.0.58.20000919155059.02103140@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39C83C60.AE8A878@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1760

<teeny spoiler potential for book 4>

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> If I may "import" a thread from alt.fan.harry-potter, does anyone
> here think that Neville may have trouble remebering things because
> someone altered his memory, a la Bertha Jorkins, and maybe once
> the curse is broken he'll go on to great things?

I don't think you need to look for a magical source for Neville's
clumsiness. Probably he's doing some internal number on himself, maybe
subconsciously (or consciously) afraid to be good, since he might connect
being an accomplished witch or wizard with what happened to his parents. We
know under the influence of the Imperius Curse, he was much more coordinated
than when he was himself.

--Amanda




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Sep 20 04:44:42 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:44:42 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Scott's=20theory=20on=20Priori=20Incantatem?=
Message-ID: <3b.a1e4946.26f99aba@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1761

From: "Scott " <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: My theory on Priori Incantatem

If you say that James was killed by the house falling in, then he 

wouldn't have come out of the wand at all because his death wouldn't 

be the direct cause of a Voldy curse....

Ah, Scott, but Priori Incantatem  causes SPELLS to appear in reverse order; 
not just DEATHS. The first thing to appear was  the shade of Wormtail's new 
silver hand. If Voldy used his wand to curse James, and James didn't die from 
the curse, but from something else (deflecting or trying to deflect a killing 
curse from Harry /Lily, house falling on him, etc) James would still have 
appeared as a result of  Voldy using his wand against James.  I can't see a 
reason why Voldy would tell Harry his father was killed first, though, if 
James wasn't. V seems to enjoy torturing with stories of his actual doings. 
And I am puzzled as to the reason why V was willing to spare Lily ("She 
needn't have died....") when full scale devastation is apparently his m.o. I 
do believe time will tell, and have an equal suspicion that the reverse order 
is not an accident.
Aylihael
"Time has a wonderful way of weeding out the trivial".

Richard Ben Sapir



From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Sep 20 12:03:00 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:03:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] NOT RON!
Message-ID: <200009201207.e8KC7Io05835@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1762

>	Notice that the description of the dead unicorn in SS is carefully
>drawn to parallel and foreshadow the death of  Cedric in GOF,  and
>Cedric, we are told, has unicorn hair in his wand -- and  (oh no!) so
>does Ron (oh dear!)  No not Ron, PLEASE not Ron, I'll do anything...
>Pippin


Ooooo, what a great observation!  I hadn't caught that one at all.  And I am 
with you here--not RON!  Anyone but Ron! (Okay,anyone but Hermione).  I feel 
like I should be DOING something, instead of just sitting here for the next 
year, waiting to see if Ron will die.  Let's see, hunger strike?  No, that 
won't work.  Leaflet campaign?  OK, that's it, I'm founding SPUHTOBR (Society 
for the Prevention of Undue Harm to Our Beloved Ron).  2 sickles to join!

Kathy




From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 12:28:49 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:28:49 -0000
Subject: Garment Shop and Hermione...
Message-ID: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1763

I live in Austria, and there is a particular store that sells 
traditional 'folk' clothing from the region. This stuff is amazing, 
and some of it looks like it came right out of a HP book! They have 
these amazing capes and cloaks...I will try to take some pictures and 
scan them in to you guys. Bare with me - this may take a while 'cause 
I don't have a scanner. 

Another topic: A friend and I were discussing Harry's possibilities 
for a future partner. She thinks that JKR has Harry's future pinned
in 
with Hermione... I am leaning towards the idea that Harry is
careening 
towards single-hood, much like Dumbledore. Hermione just seems a 
little too close to become a future romance. They are best friends. 
And then where would that leave Ron?

Any thoughts?

Helena




From gypsycaine at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 13:42:31 2000
From: gypsycaine at hotmail.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:42:31 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
Message-ID: <00ce01c02308$a2157680$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1764

Tuesday September 19 3:57 PM ET
Harry Potter Wins Round Against 'Muggles' 

TORONTO (Reuters) - It's one point for Harry and zero for the Muggles -- those pesky non-magical people -- after a Canadian school board agreed to remove restrictions on the wildly popular Harry Potter series of books. 

The Durham Region School Board, near Toronto, had required parents to sign a consent form before allowing the internationally best selling books to be read in classrooms after complaints from parents and a board trustee that the J. K. Rowling books glorified witchcraft. 

But the board narrowly decided to remove the restrictions after a heated debate on Monday from parents on both sides of the issue on the books about Potter, the wizard in training who was adopted by humans, or Muggles. 

``It's not the normal way we do business,'' said Doug Ross, chairman of the board on Tuesday. ``If their only intention is to see the books banned then they'll never be happy, because we're not in the business of banning books or censoring material.'' 

Ross said he read his first Harry Potter book over the weekend in preparation for the school board meeting on Monday. ''I think it's a silly book. I had a hard time getting through it to be honest with you, but my wife likes them.'' 

Ross said the parental approval restriction created problems because it overshadowed the board's existing learning materials selection policy requiring parents to file a written complaint form if they were not satisfied with the school's decision. 

***********************

Sourcebook reveals some of the wizardry behind the 'Harry Potter' books 


Thursday, September 14, 2000 

By CECELIA GOODNOW
SEATTLE-POST INTELLIGENCER REPORTER 





Scratch the surface of J.K. Rowling's entertaining "Harry Potter" tales and you'll find classical and mythical allusions, historical references and wordplay that many of Rowling's 35 million-plus readers have yet to discover, says the author of the first comprehensive sourcebook on the boy wizard. 

"Her books are so exciting. There's just so much there," says Elizabeth D. Schafer, whose "Exploring Harry Potter" is the lead title in a new series called "Beacham's Sourcebooks for Teaching Young Adult Fiction." 

Schafer believes Rowling, a former teacher and classics major, knew exactly what she was doing when she laced her stories with character names and plot devices that draw on classical themes. 

"There's a sense of fun," Schafer said in an interview, "like she put (this dimension) in the text and hoped readers would discover it." 

"Exploring Harry Potter" (Beacham Publishing, 479 pages, $24.95) is due in bookstores tomorrow. Like the "Potter" series itself, it became a best seller weeks ahead of its release. By early August, 600,000 copies were on advance order. 

"Initially," said publisher Walton Beacham, "we thought it would be great if we sold 50,000 copies." 

Added company publicist Jim Miller, "You cannot overestimate the interest in 'Harry Potter.'" 

Margin decorations and small drop-in illustrations give the book an inviting look, but it's essentially a straightforward reference tool for kids, parents and teachers. 

"I would not imagine kids reading it cover to cover," Schafer said. 

Upcoming installments will focus on C.S. Lewis' "Narnia" series and L. Frank Baum's "The Wizard of Oz." 

Schafer, incidentally, sees parallels between "Harry Potter" and the "Oz" series, which was the publishing phenomenon of the early 20th century. She notes that Baum opened each tale with a letter thanking children for their loyal readership and their many cards and notes. 

The Potter sourcebook includes a biographical sketch of Rowling and detailed discussion of virtually all aspects of the novels, from their emphasis on food and sports to the allegation -- which Schafer disputes -- that the books promote witchcraft. 

"What Rowling says, and I agree, is that the books are very moral," Schafer said, "and good does prevail over evil." 

The first thing we learn is that Schafer's tome is "NOT Approved by J.K. Rowling." Publicist Miller said the above-the-title disclaimer grew out of negotiations with Scholastic Inc., Rowling's American publisher. 

"We reached an agreement that we can publish this book (with the disclaimer) and they won't try to sue us," Miller said. 

Search the Web and you'll find a grab bag of sites devoted to amateur analysis of the "Harry Potter" books, complete with literary allusions and online links. But the Beacham guide gains credibility from Schafer's credentials -- a doctorate in the history of science and technology and a graduate-studies award for critical scholarship of children's literature. 

Schafer, who lives near Auburn, Ala., says the strength of "Exploring Harry Potter" is its comprehensiveness. 

"I hit a wide variety of topics, and I hit it all in one place," she said. 

Schafer will analyze future Potter books on the Beacham Web site, www.beachampublishing.com The site contains her analysis of Book IV, "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," which was published after the sourcebook went to press. 

Although Schafer's critique of the series is overwhelmingly favorable, she does pick a few bones, though she doesn't go as far as Yale professor Harold Bloom. His scathing essay in the July 11 Wall Street Journal said the books lack an authentic imaginative vision, are heavy on cliche and make no demands on readers. 

Much as Schafer admires the Potter series, she, too, faults Rowling's tendency to cover well-trod ground. 

"It is derivative, and it is (full of) stereotyped cliches," Schafer said. 

In particular, she mentioned Rowling's continuing focus on obesity as a defining characteristic of Harry's disagreeable cousin Dudley. 

She added that Harry's friend, Hermione, has strong academic skills and a highly developed sense of right and wrong, but her behavior in the first three books also "perpetuates stereotypical images of females being moody, fickle and unreliable." 

Schafer was especially disappointed that Hermione, who took a leading role in brewing the Polyjuice Potion and solving part of the mystery in Book II ("Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban"), was sidelined from further adventure by being turned into a cat and then petrified like Sleeping Beauty. 

"It did upset me when Hermione was absent during the whole adventure," she said. "Hermione could be such a good role model for girls, and it is frustrating to see her not be a part of everything and solve problems." 

And, while social themes such as racism and fair treatment are an important element of the books -- Rowling worked for Amnesty International in college as a researcher on human rights in Africa -- her characterizations do tend to reinforce ethnic stereotypes, Schafer said. 

In "Goblet of Fire," for instance, Rowling describes the Bulgarian quidditch champ as surly and heavy-browed, and she portrays the French wizardry students as snobbish. 

"To me, it doesn't kill the stories, but I wish she could have developed the characterizations without having to rely on those descriptions or those cliches," Schafer said. 

One of the sourcebook's most intriguing features is a historical timeline in which Schafer shows what was happening in the real world as the novels' fictional events unfolded. For instance, sandwiched between the death of King James II during the siege of Roxburgh Castle (Aug. 3, 1460) and the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition (1478), is the entry: "1473: World Cup Quidditch match in which all 700 fouls occurred." Asterisks indicate which entries are fictional. 

Schafer said she apparently is the first to notice that Harry's tenure at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry begins in 1991, which makes him an adult in present time. She bases that conclusion on Book II's Halloween Deathday Party to commemorate the 500th anniversary of Nearly Headless Nick's semi-beheading in 1492. Schafer extrapolates from this and other clues that Harry's birth date is July 31, 1980. 

The book's final section includes a teaching guide with plot summaries, discussion questions and suggested activities. Example: "Discuss the roles of scars and physical markings, both permanent and temporary, in literature." 

When best-selling, escapist fun turns into homework, can disillusionment be far behind? 

Schafer said she doubts school assignments will break the series' spell, since many kids already write lengthy Internet analyses of "Harry Potter." Despite a few flaws, she said the saga enchants through its use of humor, mystery, intricate plot twists and archetypal themes. 

"They're just really good reads," Schafer said. "I didn't want to bash the books, because if kids are so excited about them, maybe it'll open up doors and lead them to other things. If I had to sum up the books, I'd say they're fun more than anything else." 

But, she added, "I hope people are open to realizing just because a book's popular and published, doesn't mean it's perfect." 


Sample wisdom
Want to sound deep and well-read? Try sprinkling your conversations with these nuggets from Elizabeth D. Schafer's "Exploring Harry Potter": 

Character names: Classical allusions abound in character names. Professor Minerva McGonagall, one of the wisest people Harry knows, is named for the Roman goddess of wisdom and war. The name of Harry's nemesis, Draco Malfoy, suggests the ancient Athenian lawyer, Draco, and his Draconian or harsh code of law. "Voldemort," the name of the evil lord, is French for "flight of death." The name may also derive from King Vortigern, an overlord who, according to Arthurian legend, arrested Merlin when he was a child. 

Games: The magical game Quidditch, played on flying broomsticks, has its historical origins in soccer, which was first played at English boarding schools (the inspiration for Hogwarts) in the early 19th century. In the Middle Ages, people played shinty, using a stick to hit a ball in a game somewhat like a land version of Quidditch. 

Geography: Harry was born in England and grew up near London in Little Whinging, a fictional town set in the real county of Surrey. He attends wizard school in northern Scotland. 

Stones' significance: Stones are central to legends of many cultures. The Greeks and Romans worshipped them. Stone slabs such as Stonehenge were used in Druid rituals. The legendary Stone of Destiny in Scotland was said to recognize the true king. And alchemist Nicholas Flamel tried to produce a "philosopher's stone" in the 14th century to convert substances into precious metals. That explains the British title "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone," which became "Sorcerer's Stone" in the U.S. edition. 

Historical allusions: The self-punishing behavior of Dobby, the house elf, mimics medieval religious flagellation, and his garment is like a gallery slave's tunic. 

Hogwarts itself was built as a medieval castle. 

Seen through the prism of modern history, the Chamber of Secrets resembles the underground caverns where prisoners were forced to labor on German munitions during World War II. Salazar Slytherin's initials, S.S., suggest Nazi storm troopers, and the name Ravenclaw is similar to the name of the Ravensbrueck concentration camp. 

Witch hunts through time: In A.D. 367, the Roman emperor Valerian began the first recorded witch hunt. In 1541, witchcraft became a felony under British common law. One hundred women were accused of witchcraft and murdered in South Africa in 1994. 

The meaning of magic: In the Potter series, magic represents imagination and connection with adult mentors who help students achieve maturity and insights not available to other children. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P-I reporter Cecelia Goodnow can be reached at 206-448-8353 or ceceliagoodnow at seattle-pi.com

************************

      
         
     

     
      Church to lure young with Harry Potter 


      BY RUTH GLEDHILL, RELIGION CORRESPONDENT 

      A VICAR in the Church of England is to hold a special "Harry Potter" family service this weekend, complete with wizards, pointy hats, broomsticks and a game of quidditch. 
      The Hogwarts liturgy, posted on an Internet discussion site, was welcomed by other clergy who wish to adapt it for their churches as well. The service has aroused horror among evangelicals, who condemned it as "importing evil symbols into the Church". 

      A banner featuring a serpent, representing the House of Slytherin in the best-selling books by J.K. Rowling, will adorn the 1960s church of All Saints in Guildford, Surrey, this Sunday. Banners of the other three Hogwarts houses will also be displayed. 

      The church door will be re-ordered as the gateway to "platform 9*", the magical platform at King's Cross Station where children at the Hogwarts school of wizardry catch the Hogwarts Express. 

      The Rev Brian Coleman, Vicar of All Saints, will don wizard's robes and hat to play the Hogwarts headmaster Albus Dumbledore to lead the special "service of the word". 

      Mike Truman, a lay member of the parish who is about to qualify as a reader and who has drawn up the new Harry Potter liturgy, a variation on an authorised Church of England service in the new Common Worship service book, will play a teacher at Hogwarts. His 11-year-old son, Mark, will play Harry Potter. A "sorting hat" will be used to enact a drama in which four new teachers are sorted into houses. The service will feature "Muggle songs" (hymns), and will end with a game of quidditch, in which worshippers will compete to capture a "snitch", a yellow rubber ball. 

      This Sunday has been chosen because the New Testament reading in the liturgical calendar, James 1:17-27, is considered particularly appropriate to the themes of Harry Potter. A broomstick, an "invisibility cloak" and "ton-tongue toffees" will be used to illustrate verse 17, about generous gifts coming from God. 

      Mr Coleman conceded that the service might not receive universal approbation. "But if you look at the Narnia chronicles by C.S. Lewis, these are books that also use magic as the background to a story." 

      He insisted that the Harry Potter books were highly moral. "They are about loyalty, standing up for friends, standing up for good against evil. That is exactly what the passage in James is about. Young folk are all very much into Harry Potter. We are using this interest." 

      The service has dismayed the Evangelical Alliance, the umbrella group for evangelical Christians. The Rev Paul Harris, an Anglican clergyman who convenes the alliance's panel on cults and new spiritualities, said: "We do encourage clergy to connect with contemporary culture. But it is going too far to use images from Harry Potter. There is a risk that children are going to be very confused by the use of symbols associated with evil." 
     


  TIMES BACKGROUND 

  PICTURES OF HARRY AROUND THE WORLD 

  France 

  Germany 

  Iceland 

  Italy 

  Spain 

  UK 

  Picture gallery 

  INTERNET LINKS 

  The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club 

  Fan site packed with all sorts of goodies 

  Official Harry Potter site (US) 

  Bloomsbury Publishers 

  Play Quidditch online 

  Webring 

  List of foreign publishers 

  Harry Potter Movie site 

  Lesson plans using Harry Potter 

  Hogwarts Online 

  Australian website 

  The "essential" Harry Potter site 

 
*************************

Tuesday September 19 9:29 PM ET
Harry Potter casts spell on Scholastic results 

By Ilaina Jonas 

NEW YORK, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Scholastic Corp., U.S. publisher of the smash hit ``Harry Potter'' books, Tuesday reported a much smaller first-quarter loss than Wall Street expected as the frenzy over the broom-flying pupil at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry helped slash its traditional first-quarter loss from a year ago. 

``Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire,'' the fourth in the series of best-selling ``Harry Potter'' books by British author J.K. Rowling, had the largest initial print run in publishing history -- 3.8 million copies -- when it was released on July 8, Scholastic said. 

The book's release inspired bookstores across the nation to open at midnight on July 8, which happened to be a Saturday, and stage wizard parties to greet young ``Harry Potter'' fans and parents eager to get their hands on ``the Goblet of Fire'' tale. A week later, the trade magazine Publishers Weekly dubbed the book the fastest selling in history. And The New York Times responded to the ``Harry Potter'' phenomenon by creating a best-seller list for children's books. 

The New York-based children's book publisher and multimedia concern said its net loss in the period ended Aug. 31 shrank to $10.6 million, or 62 cents per share, from $23.6 million, or $1.43 per share, a year earlier. 

Wall Street analysts had expected Scholastic to report a loss of $1.11 per share, according to research firm First Call/Thomson Financial. 

Scholastic, which also publishes the popular ``Baby-Sitters Club'' series and is the top U.S. operator of school book clubs and fairs, traditionally reports a loss in its fiscal first quarter because school is not in session and revenues ebb to their lowest point during the year. 

Revenue in the first quarter rose 100 percent to $362.1 million, compared with $182.5 million a year ago. That included children's publisher Grolier, acquired from France's Lagardere S.C.A. in June, which contributed $65.8 million in revenue. 

``This was an excellent quarter across the board,'' Richard Robinson, Scholastic chairman, president and chief executive, said in a statement. 

The company said that based on its strong first- quarter results, it boosted its earnings-per-share target before one-time charges for fiscal year 2001 to $4.10-$4.25. Analysts had expected the company to earn $3.77 a share for the year, according to First Call. In fiscal 2000, it earned $3.25 a share. 

The ``Harry Potter'' series was one of the main contributors to the first-quarter results, Scholastic said. Fuelled by the release of ``Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire'' in hardcover and ``Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets'' in paperback, the saga of the boy with the magical powers generated more than $90 million in revenues, compared with $15 million in the year-ago quarter. 

Based on continuing demand, Scholastic said it expects ``Harry Potter'' sales, including related bookmark and journal publishing, to account for between 8 percent to 10 percent of total fiscal 2001 revenues. That compares with about 5 percent to 6 percent in fiscal 2000. 

Its core curriculum revenues jumped nearly 50 percent, due to the success of Scholastic Literacy Place 2000 used in the Texas Reading Adoption program and in sales of Read 180, a help program for below-grade-level readers. 

The company's $15 million cost-cutting plan also contributed to its results, Scholastic said. The company expects to save $20 million by fiscal 2002 through the integration of Grolier, which operates direct mail and online book clubs for kids, online and print children's reference books and significant publishing operations in the United Kingdom, Canada and Southeast Asia. 

Scholastic stock ended down 1/2 at $63-3/4 Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange. The stock's 52-week high was $70-3/4, its low $43-1/2. 

Reuters/Variety REUTERS 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 20 14:43:14 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:43:14 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c02308$a2157680$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qaie2+i75r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1765

  Not to single out Denise, but on several lists I am on, we have had 
to find some compromise on the issue of copyrighted material in
posts. 

 It may be less of an issue on an 'archives for members only' group, 
such as this one, but I suggest that it both saves bandwidth and 
reduces the risks of copyright complaint, to simply post the URL to 
the story (as I had already done on the first story quoted.....).  
That is 100% legal, and therefore safe.  It also reduces the size of 
messages  - and digests.   (Remembering to only quote key parts of a 
replied-to message also reduces digest size.)

  Plus, I want to remind US members that many people outside the US 
still have to pay-per-minute for internet & telephone time (most US 
ISP's, and local telephone service, is flat rate).  Sending just the 
title and maybe first line of a story with the URL, will let someone 
decide if they want to read the whole thing.  That is another reason 
to not be too profligate with message size.


  On to content for a moment....

  Anyone notice a strange, probable misspelling, in the last article, 
about Dobby's clothing being reminiscent of a "gallery slave"?  That 
should probably be "galley slave", a la _Ben Hur_.  Otherwise I just 
have this image of sad-faced people in chains walking around, moving 
paintings from on wall to another in an art gallery.....

-Brooks




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep 20 16:03:19 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:03:19 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c02308$a2157680$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEGMCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1766

>>>>the name Ravenclaw is similar to the name of the Ravensbrueck
concentration camp. <<<<<<

This woke me up and made me say "HUH?????"  How'd she make such a bizarre
connection?  I haven't heard any tales of starvation or a crematorium in the
Ravenclaw Common Room.  This is just plain bizarre.




======================================================
When I am an Evil Overlord....
#218. I will not pick up a glowing ancient artifact
and shout "Its power is now mine!!!" Instead I will
grab some tongs, transfer it to a hazardous materials
container, and transport it back to my lab for study.
======================================================




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Wed Sep 20 16:07:21 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:07:21 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8q8p7s+69il@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qanbq+prr5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1767

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
>  
> > If you say that James was killed by the house falling in, then he 
> > wouldn't have come out of the wand at all because his death 
> wouldn't 
> > be the direct cause of a Voldy curse....
> 

Hello everyone,
   I have one question regarding the idea that the house collapsing 
may have caused James' death.  There are two mentions of wizards 
being resistant to death by conventional means (I'm not saying they 
are immortal, just "resistant).  The first was Hagrid's astonishment 
at the Dursley's contention that Lilly and James could have been 
killed by a car crash (as violent as a house falling I'd say).   The 
second was Neville being dropped from a second story window and 
simply bouncing down the street.  Possibly a strong curse went off 
and it both destroyed the house and killed James.

   Speaking of a curse, I have another idea that occurred to me the 
other day regarding Snape's hatred toward Harry.  It sounds like the 
common belief is that Snape was in love with Lilly and hates Harry as 
a by-product of hating James out of jealousy.  What if his hatred is 
instead strictly for Harry because of something he did.  I contend 
that Snape was working for Dumbledore and the Ministry to bring down 
Voldy (something we as much already know).  Suppose the night Voldy 
went to kill the Potters, Snape was there.  Perhaps he was Voldy's 
Lietenant or something (he could even have asked to come along 
because of his well-known animosity toward James).  Anyway, he wanted 
to kill or at catch Voldy and may have even cast the curse I 
mentioned above.  Now he was the one who tracked down Voldy, he was 
the one who was going to save Lilly's son, he was going to be the 
hero to every wizard and witch and all of the credit for Voldy's 
downfall ends up going to Harry.  Once again he has been bested by a 
Potter and this time he's an infant.   Note: this would also explain 
Dumbledore's unwavering trust in Snape.
   Anyway, I get these weird ideas every now and then like 
the "Crabbe and Goyle" theory and the "James took Polyjuice" solution 
so I would appreciate any thoughts.
                                            Brian




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 20 16:16:06 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:16:06 -0000
Subject: The cause of Neville 's poor memory--theory
Message-ID: <8qans6+9ht9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1768

Neville has a notoriously poor memory. Could he be under a powerful 
Memory Charm? In GoF, we find out that Neville's parents were 
attacked by Death Eaters. First, his father was put under the 
Cruciatus Curse, then his mother. I believe Dumbledore said that the 
attack on the Longbottoms occurred long after V.'s disappearance. Did 
a two year old Neville witness this? And if he did, did his well-
meaning Grandmother put a Memory Charm on him to help him forget, but 
also managed to mess up his memory in general? Afterall, two year 
olds can be scared by scary movies, sounds and people. 






From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 20 16:18:10 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:18:10 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve
In-Reply-To: <8q6i10+ghn6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qao02+54p6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1769

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> Don't have the text of GoF in front of me, but from what I remember 
> at the end of the chapter Harry's face changed into Snape's in the 
> Pensieve.  Then Dumbledore says something to the effect of "a 
> connection I could have made without assistance

Harry's face telling Dumbledore that his scar hurts turns into Snape 
telling Dumbledore that "it" is getting clearer all the time.

On first reading, the meaning was was a mystery: WHAT is getting 
clearer, what does Snape have to do with Harry's scar? On second 
reading, it is *clear* that the connection between these two pieces 
of information is that Harry's scar hurts because of Voldemort, and 
that Snape was telling Dumbledore that the Dark Mark is getting 
darker on his arm and Karkaroff's arm, and that the connection is 
that both are signs that V is getting stronger or more active.

Am I the only weirdo who is reminded by the Dark Mark on their arms 
of Nazi concentration camp ID tattooes? How about being reminded of 
the Mark of the Beast?




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 20 16:26:06 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:26:06 -0000
Subject: Harry, Snape, and the Pensieve
In-Reply-To: <8qao02+54p6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qaoeu+smcr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1770

Good call on the Death Mark and tatoos.

The NAZI's Gestapo officers used to tatoo their ID numbers on their 
armpit. 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:
> 
> > Don't have the text of GoF in front of me, but from what I 
remember 
> > at the end of the chapter Harry's face changed into Snape's in 
the 
> > Pensieve.  Then Dumbledore says something to the effect of "a 
> > connection I could have made without assistance
> 
> Harry's face telling Dumbledore that his scar hurts turns into 
Snape 
> telling Dumbledore that "it" is getting clearer all the time.
> 
> On first reading, the meaning was was a mystery: WHAT is getting 
> clearer, what does Snape have to do with Harry's scar? On second 
> reading, it is *clear* that the connection between these two pieces 
> of information is that Harry's scar hurts because of Voldemort, and 
> that Snape was telling Dumbledore that the Dark Mark is getting 
> darker on his arm and Karkaroff's arm, and that the connection is 
> that both are signs that V is getting stronger or more active.
> 
> Am I the only weirdo who is reminded by the Dark Mark on their arms 
> of Nazi concentration camp ID tattooes? How about being reminded of 
> the Mark of the Beast?




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 20 16:06:37 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:06:37 -0000
Subject: World War Parallels
In-Reply-To: <8q8ooj+ords@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qanad+n9rl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1771

Funny you mention this because dumbledore defeated the Dark Wizard, 
Grindelwald (sounds sort of Teutonic doesn't it) in 1945...Maybe The 
Axis had a Dark Wizard working on their side?

Also, the description of Bartemus Crouch Sr..."severely parted hair" 
and a "toothbrush moustache"...was reminiscent of Adolf Hitler.

milz

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> I've been meaning to post (since I had earlier mentioned a couple 
or 
> three mild parallels) a rather different thought I had over the 
last 
> few days:  Try this one for parallels.
> 
> "Vold War I"  - ended when he disappeared upon attacking Harry
> 
> "Vold War II" - the one that is coming in the remaining books.....
> 
> What we have read so far is the "Between the Wars" period, with 
> Voldemort (enemy) rearming and recovering the power that was 
knocked 
> down, but not destroyed, as originally thought, at the end of the 
> First Vold War/First World War.   Other people than I have remarked 
> that we thought of Neville Chamberlain in character, in the 
portrait 
> of Fudge we get at the end of GoF (I was not even the first person 
to 
> say it on the list, although I certainly thought it when I read 
GoF). 
> (By the way, I have acquired an interesting analytic book lately 
that 
> suggests Chamberlain pretty much *had* to appease, to buy time for 
> Britain to re-arm).
> 
> The previously thought-of WWII parallels, of course, include the
> "Pure Blood"/Aryan kind of thing exemplified by Draco Malfoy's 
> attitude (and hair color).  
> 
> -Brooks




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Wed Sep 20 16:54:13 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry / Hermione
References: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c02323$6e093aa0$d56a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1773


> Another topic: A friend and I were discussing Harry's possibilities
> for a future partner. She thinks that JKR has Harry's future pinned
> in
> with Hermione... I am leaning towards the idea that Harry is
> careening
> towards single-hood, much like Dumbledore. Hermione just seems a
> little too close to become a future romance. They are best friends.
> And then where would that leave Ron?
>
> Any thoughts?
>

My what an innocent question that has stirred up reams of commentary on this
subject....(oh for our FAQ's).  Penny is the expert on this subject and is
writing up the FAQ on the various (probably thousand or so) posts on this
issue.  Its interesting that your friend would pick up on a Harry and
Hermione pairing....she will be popular with Penny.  Most people see strong
Hermione / Ron pairing in the books.  There have been reams of fanfiction
written about every conceivable pairing...the most popular being :

Harry / Hermione
Ron / Hermione
Harry / Ginny
Harry / Cho

Some of the more bizarre are:

Hermione / Draco
and one advanced by our own Simon:    Harry / Hedwig  (Harry as an Animagus,
of course)

My personal opinion was shaped strongly by a piece of fanfiction that a lot
of us on this board have read called Paradigm of Uncertainty (link at bottom
of message).  The premise of that is that in the Hogwarts years Ron and
Hermione hook up,  Harry and Cho dated.  After Hogwarts Harry and Ginny date
for a bit (see prequel to Paradigm....blatant self promotion here...chapter
8 just posted) then in Paradigm Harry and Hermione finally find each other
as soul mates.

I do see Harry and Hermione as destined for one another, but in the context
of Paradigm, not during the Hogwarts years.

Here's the link:

http://www.egroups.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

You don't need to sign up for the egroup list in order to read the
chapters....they are posted in the files section of the homepage, but now
that we are in egroups anyway, you can simply add it to you list of
egroups...and enjoy the discussion.

carole









From 100akerwood at sprint.ca  Wed Sep 20 17:13:58 2000
From: 100akerwood at sprint.ca (B.)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:13:58 -0400
Subject: hello and a question about HP in schools
Message-ID: <200009201717.NAA08953@hme0.mailrouter04.sprint.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 1774

Hi,
 I've been lurking here and enjoying the debates, that wand order has
really got me wondering, interesting theory that Harry really saw himself
and mistook him for his father (sorry forget who said that, so many e-mails
:) )

My question is about teaching HP in schools, specifically about Dudley. The
books are so fun and imaginative, but I found the description of Dudley's
weight jarring, and for a fat child to be sitting in a classroom while
Dudley's fatness is equated with being an unpleasant person, and set up for
ridicule, must be very upsetting. I think the HP books can be a very good
opportunity to discuss the prejudice against people who look different
(also Snapes with his big nose, maybe the fact that he was made fun is part
of the reason for his mean behavior) Would like to hear the opinions about
this subject from everyone.

B.





From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 20 17:30:59 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:30:59 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8qanbq+prr5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qas8j+7j4g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1775

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:

>  Perhaps he was Voldy's 
> Lietenant or something (he could even have asked to come along 
> because of his well-known animosity toward James).  Anyway, he 
wanted 
> to kill or at catch Voldy and may have even cast the curse I 
> mentioned above.  Now he was the one who tracked down Voldy, he was 
> the one who was going to save Lilly's son, he was going to be the 
> hero to every wizard and witch and all of the credit for Voldy's 
> downfall ends up going to Harry.  Once again he has been bested by
a 
> Potter and this time he's an infant.   Note: this would also
explain 
> Dumbledore's unwavering trust in Snape.
>    Anyway, I get these weird ideas every now and then like 
> the "Crabbe and Goyle" theory and the "James took Polyjuice" 
solution 
> so I would appreciate any thoughts.


Actually I suggested something similar to this back on the Yahoo
list, 
around the second week of August.  Not posting a 'prior claim' here; 
instead I am intrigued that someone else came to a similar theory.

-Brooks




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 20 17:29:54 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:29:54 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c02308$a2157680$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qas6i+6142@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1776

I just HAD to make some comments on Schafers book.  While it sounds 
like a mixture of interesting literary analysis and obvious 
observations, some of the excerpts were striking to me:

>Elizabeth D. Schafer, whose "Exploring Harry Potter" is the lead 
title in a new series called "Beacham's Sourcebooks for Teaching 
Young Adult Fiction." 
>
> Much as Schafer admires the Potter series, she, too, faults 
Rowling's tendency to cover well-trod ground. 
> 
> "It is derivative, and it is (full of) stereotyped cliches," 
Schafer said. 
> 
> In particular, she mentioned Rowling's continuing focus on obesity 
as a defining characteristic of Harry's disagreeable cousin Dudley. 
> 
> And, while social themes such as racism and fair treatment are an 
important element of the books -- Rowling worked for Amnesty 
International in college as a researcher on human rights in Africa -- 
her characterizations do tend to reinforce ethnic stereotypes, 
Schafer said. 
> 
> In "Goblet of Fire," for instance, Rowling describes the Bulgarian 
quidditch champ as surly and heavy-browed, and she portrays the 
French wizardry students as snobbish. 
> 

IMHO this is a very interesting observation, similar to the 
observation made in the New Yorker article on Harry Potter (sometime 
in July, great article), in which the author said something to the 
effect that s/he felt uncomfortable with some of JKRs 
characterizations:  Snape is too much like a Shakespearean Shylock-
type Jewish stereotype; and Quirrell seems like a gay stereotype.


> Schafer said she apparently is the first to notice that Harry's 
tenure at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry begins in 1991, 
which makes him an adult in present time. 
> 

The first to notice? Hardly.  IMHO, people with PhDs need to be 
slapped upside the head every now and then to remind them to be 
humble.  [If (oh no, wait, I mean when) I ever finish my 
dissertation, I swear I will never say anything that arrogant.]


> Seen through the prism of modern history, the Chamber of Secrets 
resembles the underground caverns where prisoners were forced to 
labor on German munitions during World War II. Salazar Slytherin's 
initials, S.S., suggest Nazi storm troopers, and the name Ravenclaw 
is similar to the name of the Ravensbrueck concentration camp. 
> 

Am I the only one who thinks that this is really pushing it?

--Joywitch




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 20 17:33:16 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:33:16 -0000
Subject: World War Parallels
In-Reply-To: <8qanad+n9rl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qascs+dqc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1777

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Funny you mention this because dumbledore defeated the Dark Wizard, 
> Grindelwald (sounds sort of Teutonic doesn't it) in 1945...Maybe
The 
> Axis had a Dark Wizard working on their side?
> 
> Also, the description of Bartemus Crouch Sr..."severely parted
hair" 
> and a "toothbrush moustache"...was reminiscent of Adolf Hitler.


Grindlewald is actually a village in the Swiss Alps, near the Eiger.
As for Crouch description, I thought more of Chamberlain's appearance 
- (despite seeing Fudge's character as more Chamberlain-like later.)

-Brooks




From Tallonclaw at aol.com  Wed Sep 20 17:34:35 2000
From: Tallonclaw at aol.com (Tallonclaw at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:34:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
Message-ID: <21.11dbeff.26fa4f2b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1778

In a message dated 9/18/00 8:38:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kathleen at carr.org writes:
<snip> 
<< the fact that the Priori Incantatem spell regurgitates the last 
 spells it performed IN REVERSE ORDER is emphasized 4 or 5 times--a little 
too 
 emphatically, I think, for it all to be a mistake. >>

I remember someone saying something about the Polyjuice potion and since the 
Priori Incantatem spell *was* emphasized so much I was thinking, what if 
James and Lily had taken the potion and turned into each other, and when 
Voldemort came and shot the spell at psudo-James it was really Lily whom he 
killed, and then James as psudo-Lily whom was protecting Harry was killed 
next. I don't know why they would do this but it might tie in with the whole 
Gryffindor heir thing. 

Nikki 



From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 20 17:41:34 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:41:34 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
In-Reply-To: <8qas6i+6142@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qasse+eoop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1779

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:

>  and Quirrell seems like a gay stereotype.

I thought he was a COWARD stereotype.  He isn't mincing, he is 
tremulous!

 
> > Schafer said she apparently is the first to notice that Harry's 
> tenure at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry begins in
1991, 
> which makes him an adult in present time. 
> > 
> 
> The first to notice? Hardly.  IMHO, people with PhDs need to be 
> slapped upside the head every now and then to remind them to be 
> humble.  

Good  observation. :-)

> > Seen through the prism of modern history, the Chamber of Secrets 
> resembles the underground caverns where prisoners were forced to 
> labor on German munitions during World War II. Salazar Slytherin's 
> initials, S.S., suggest Nazi storm troopers, and the name Ravenclaw 
> is similar to the name of the Ravensbrueck concentration camp. 
> > 
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks that this is really pushing it?

Nope.  The Chamber of Secrets sounds more like the classical dragon's 
lair.  And all the Hogwarts founders have alliterative names.


Apropos of banning efforts, in today's _Fax Daily_ (a free newsletter 
sent to local business fax machines, with jokes and polls)

"Expelliarmus!.... A Florida library has stopped a Harry Potter 
promotion becuase parents and churches complained the book exposes 
children to witchcraft.   Uhmmm, _I Dream of Jeannie_, _Bewitched_, 
_Mary Poppins_, _Sleeping Beauty_, _Macbeth_, _Jack and the 
Beanstalk_, _Cinderella_, _The Hobbit_, _Rumplestiltskin_, _Casper
the 
Friendly Ghost_, _Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs_, _Scooby Doo_, 
_Fantasia_.  Have I made my point yet?"

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 20 17:43:00 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:43:00 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order
In-Reply-To: <21.11dbeff.26fa4f2b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qasv4+25js@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1780

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Tallonclaw at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/18/00 8:38:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> kathleen at c... writes:
> <snip> 
> << the fact that the Priori Incantatem spell regurgitates the last 
>  spells it performed IN REVERSE ORDER is emphasized 4 or 5 times--a 
little 
> too 
>  emphatically, I think, for it all to be a mistake. >>
> 
> I remember someone saying something about the Polyjuice potion and 
since the 
> Priori Incantatem spell *was* emphasized so much I was thinking, 
what if 
> James and Lily had taken the potion and turned into each other, and 
 

What if they had just swapped brains?  (Or consciousnesses)?

-Brooks




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Wed Sep 20 17:47:10 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:47:10 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Babies an NOT easy option.
References: <8q6s2v+9uaj@eGroups.com> <00e201c02258$a34d6a40$1b7d883e@default> <39C7CCF8.99AC5844@texas.net> <002101c022a0$5c1585c0$a6af20cc@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <006301c0232a$ce04e600$8776883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 1781

No I don't. I am just a trainee teacher who is only too grateful to leave at
3:10. I think my theory was not that having a baby is an easy option. Babies
and children are bloody hard work I know I once babysat a four month baby
for a whole w/e! <g> As I've also said I'm teacher training no illusions
where sprogs are concerned. I think I meant that if Mollie had had to give
up whatever she was doing then there was less reason to avoid having
children. (This is excellent contraception and  anyone with teenage children
might note it. Leave them in charge of a baby for a  w/e and they won't
produce their own)

Heather, who only likes other peoples children.




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Sep 20 18:06:45 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2000 11:06:45 -0700
Subject: Schafer (was: Harry Potter News (Cut and pasted)
Message-ID: <20000920180645.1696.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1782

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000920/526c1f68/attachment.ksh>

From shellymoos at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 18:09:59 2000
From: shellymoos at hotmail.com (Shelly )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:09:59 -0000
Subject: Schafer's Book
Message-ID: <8qauhn+lq99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1783

Reading the info on her book made me think "Couldn't we just have 
published our list of FAQ's and done the same thing?"   Seems like 
everything that she has "discovered" or "come to the conclusion of"  
is something we have already discussed on this list.  Glad she's the 
only one who could come up with all that    Later  Shelly
"  




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 18:23:42 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (hilary_tamar at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:23:42 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8qanbq+prr5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qavbe+i61o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1784

Leaving Lurk Mode to ask:
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> 
wrote:
>It sounds like the 
> common belief is that Snape was in love with Lilly and hates Harry 
as 
> a by-product of hating James out of jealousy.  

I just have to ask -- and I hope this doesn't come across as rude or 
anything -- but where are people getting that idea? 

We've been told Snape hated James, and we've seen that he hates 
Sirius, but how do you figure Lilly into all this?

Back into Lurk Mode...

ht




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 20 18:38:35 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:38:35 -0500
Subject: WWII Parallels
References: <8qasse+eoop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C9042A.25AC8D9D@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1785

Hi --

> > > Seen through the prism of modern history, the Chamber of Secrets
> > resembles the underground caverns where prisoners were forced to
> > labor on German munitions during World War II. Salazar Slytherin's
> > initials, S.S., suggest Nazi storm troopers, and the name Ravenclaw
> > is similar to the name of the Ravensbrueck concentration camp.
> > >
> >
> > Am I the only one who thinks that this is really pushing it?

No -- I see several WWII parallels in the series, but the above is not
one.  That is really far-fetched in my mind (particularly the equation
of Ravenclaw with a notorious concentration camp).  In addition to the
WWII parallels that Brooks posted yesterday, I thought of more (and some
potential ones) --

It seems to me that as there are some similarities between Fudge &
Chamberlain, there are also at least some superficial similarities
between Dumbledore & Churchill (both a bit eccentric, both criticized
even within their own "party," strong sense of patriotism/country so to
speak, etc.).  Those same parallels might be more applicable if Arthur
Weasley assumes a greater role at the MoM.

Wondering if Beaux Batons will be "occupied" by the Voldemort forces and
if Hogwarts will find itself under siege & potential "invasion"?  Will
an American school be introduced?

Also wondering if sending emissaries to the Giants might be somewhat
analogous to the Anglo-American alliance with the Soviet Union (assuming
the Giants agree to ally themselves with the Dumbledore forces)?

I'm sure I can think of more . . . . give me time.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From icemousepotter at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 18:31:35 2000
From: icemousepotter at hotmail.com (icemousepotter at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:31:35 -0000
Subject: Schafer's Book
In-Reply-To: <8qauhn+lq99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qavq7+u165@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1786

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Shelly " <shellymoos at h...> wrote:
> Reading the info on her book made me think "Couldn't we just have 
> published our list of FAQ's and done the same thing?"   Seems like 
> everything that she has "discovered" or "come to the conclusion 
of"  
> is something we have already discussed on this list.  Glad she's 
the 
> only one who could come up with all that    Later  Shelly
> "

Absolutely agree.I went and read her "critique" of GoF on the 
publisher's site. I couldn't find a single interesting observation 
that hadn't already been discussed on this and other sites over the 
last couple of months. The rest was  ridiculous, forced attempts at 
insight e.g. JKR describes Frank as "pottering" around the gardens in 
the opening chapter to show that Harry Potter is omnipresent in the 
books - I ask you.I can't help feeling that what we have here is a 
bad case of the intellectual disease that can't accept that any book 
is worth reading until some academic maggot has crawled over it and 
pronounced. 




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 20 18:49:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:49:33 -0500
Subject: Schafer 
References: <20000920180645.1696.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <39C906BD.5EB4610E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1787

Hi --

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> On Wed, 20 September 2000, "Joywitch " wrote:
>
> > I just HAD to make some comments on Schafers book.
>
> So, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a striking similarity
> between Schafer and Nancy Stouffer?  Two pseudo-leterary types (in
> their own minds, anyway) who are dealing with someone else's success
> in rather pompous ways?

Hmmm . . . . and I was just thinking of adding the Schafer book to my
Amazon "Wish List."  Maybe not.  Were those excerpts from a review
Joywitch or have you read the book itself?  Has anyone read it that
would care to add commentary?  It's sounding more & more like something
I might want to avoid (but a more expensive mistake than the Shapiro
unauthorized bio that was terrible but only cost me $5).

I think it far more likely that someone in this group was the first
person to notice the indirect way to compute Harry's birthdate and
construct a chronology.  In fact . . . . it could be said that virtually
anyone who reads CoS can make that leap.  <g>  It's not all *that* hard
after all.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Wed Sep 20 18:45:59 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:45:59 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8qavbe+i61o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qb0l7+tqe0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1788

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, hilary_tamar at h... wrote:
> Leaving Lurk Mode to ask:

> I just have to ask -- and I hope this doesn't come across as rude 
or 
> anything -- but where are people getting that idea? 
> 
> We've been told Snape hated James, and we've seen that he hates 
> Sirius, but how do you figure Lilly into all this?
> 
> Back into Lurk Mode...
> 
> ht

HT,
   I'm still pretty new here but I think the Severus/Lilly link is 
just a suspicion that's only basis is in Snape's all-consuming hatred 
for James.  I don't think there is any direct evidence either way but 
I think for some it just kind of "feels right" based on what little 
there is to go on.
   I don't know, does anyone know of a more concrete reason for 
believing in this relationship?
                                    Brian




From 100akerwood at sprint.ca  Wed Sep 20 18:46:10 2000
From: 100akerwood at sprint.ca (B.)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:46:10 -0400
Subject: my last message
Message-ID: <200009201848.OAA19300@hme0.mailrouter01.sprint.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 1789

Hello again,
 I hope my last message didn't come across as too negative or as
harry-bashing, I really do love the books... I guess it's just my own
issue, but it does seem that it could be a good tool to teach children not
too judge people by their appearances, Gilderoy Lockhart is a prime example
of that :)
 B.



From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 20 19:11:54 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:11:54 -0500
Subject: Harry/Hermione 
References: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C90BF9.781BDBBA@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1790

Hi:

hgiammarco at hotmail.com wrote:

> Another topic: A friend and I were discussing Harry's possibilities
> for a future partner. She thinks that JKR has Harry's future pinned
> in with Hermione... I am leaning towards the idea that Harry is
> careening towards single-hood, much like Dumbledore. Hermione just
> seems a little too close to become a future romance. They are best
> friends.
> And then where would that leave Ron?

Well, as Carole already intimated -- this is one of my favorite
subjects.  First, I don't know that we can make the presumption that
Dumbledore has always been single & uninvolved romantically (he might
even be now for all we know).  None of the teachers seemingly have
spouses, partners or dates . . . . which is perhaps a bit unrealistic.
In any case, Dumbledore is old enough that he might well be widowed.

Back to Harry/Hermione romantic possibilities (H/H) -- I've never posted
all my H/H evidence & theories to this group in one lump posting before
so . . .  here goes.  Mind you, it created a firestorm of controversy on
hpanonymous, which is why I've been reluctant to post it all here
before.  But, it's all in the FAQ to be posted for this group (along
with arguments against H/H & arguments for & against the other possible
pairings).  This is the simplified version of the Arguments For H/H from
my FAQ draft --

1.  Balance -- Harry and Hermione are more balanced as a couple than Ron
and Hermione.  Harry's bravery and standout magical abilities are
balanced by Hermione's intellect and natural magical abilities;
therefore, neither party would be the dominant partner in a romantic
relationship.  She's a strong enough person to "hold her own" and be a
realistic love interest of the hero.

2.   JKR's Favorite Characters: One member has created some strong
arguments that Harry is JKR's favorite character in the series and that
because he is the story's hero, he is in effect her hero as well.
Hermione is indisputably JKR's "surrogate" in the books.  JKR has
admitted that Hermione reflects many aspects of her own personality.

3.   Hermione's Interest:  It can be argued that Hermione has shown more
interest in Harry than in Ron.  She bought him an expensive broomstick
servicing kit for his birthday in PoA (indicating that she gave the
matter enough thought to buy him a present he'd enjoy rather than what
he expected her to buy, a book).  At the Quidditch World Cup in GoF,
it's Harry that she pulls back into his seat when the boys are all
entranced by the veela.

When Harry and Ron are fighting during GoF, she chose to spend the all
or most of her time with Harry rather than Ron.  We the readers are left
with the impression that Harry and Hermione go to classes together, sit
together in classes, leave class together, eat all their meals together,
spend all their time in the common room together and take several long
walks together.  While we have the impression that Hermione believes
both Harry and Ron are being stubborn, she's taken sides to some extent
by spending all or most of her time with Harry during this time period.
When they go to Hogsmeade and Harry is in his invisibility cloak,
Hermione was, from the viewpoint of the other students, alone. Ron
didn't make any attempt to invite her to join him and his group or even
approach her.

It's Harry who is the recipient of Krum's jealousy rather than Ron.
Krum says that Hermione talks about Harry "very often."  Although he
might have had the same conversation with Ron, it is implied that he
doesn't regard Ron as a rival for her affections.

She kisses Harry at the end of GoF.  We don't know if she also kissed
Ron and/or Krum, but the fact that she kissed Harry is subtly emphasized
(and might or might not be significant).

4.   Subtle Subtext: Most readers who favor this pairing argue that the
subtext for a romantic relationship between these two is subtly apparent
in the books.  While Ron's attraction to Hermione is apparent to even
the most obtuse of readers, one needs to look a bit below the surface to
see the Harry/Hermione subtext.  Additionally, the books are written
from Harry's point of view, and he is clearly aware of Ron's feelings
for Hermione.

There's also the Farmer in the Dell Theory --

1. Ron has romantic interest in Hermione;
2. Hermione has romantic interest in Harry; and
3. Harry has romantic interest in someone outside the Trio or in no one.

As Carole pointed out, many of the firm H/H "shippers" were converted
(or at least partially converted) by the Paradigm of Uncertainty fanfic
(written by member Lori Summers).  Many of us also believe that the
Farmer in the Dell Theory is far more likely to play out in the 7 books
while the characters are at Hogwarts.  Or, as Carole said, many of us
also believe it's likely that Ron & Hermione could date during the books
but still not be the "right" person for each other (with H/H being each
other's eventual "destiny").

Okay -- long enough for now.  Hopefully that satisfied Helena's
curiosity and won't inspire a huge circle of arguments.  <g>

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From particle at urbanet.ch  Wed Sep 20 19:29:37 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:29:37 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Hermione 
References: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com> <39C90BF9.781BDBBA@hic.net>
Message-ID: <00ba01c02339$1dbce2c0$53ebcac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1791

While we're at it, some of the H/H counter-arguments - hope this doesn't
offend the H/H shippers out there, I've got nothing against it per se...

<1.  Balance -- Harry and Hermione are more balanced as a couple than Ron
and Hermione.  Harry's bravery and standout magical abilities are
balanced by Hermione's intellect and natural magical abilities;
therefore, neither party would be the dominant partner in a romantic
relationship.  She's a strong enough person to "hold her own" and be a
realistic love interest of the hero.>

Even assuming that H and H would be more balanced together, which is not a
point I quite agree with, the Trio as a whole would be far more imbalanced
that a Ron/Hermione situation - Harry, being the main character, would be
able to stand on his own if the other two were involed. In an H/H situation,
Ron would not.

<3.   Hermione's Interest:  It can be argued that Hermione has shown more
interest in Harry than in Ron.  She bought him an expensive broomstick
servicing kit for his birthday in PoA (indicating that she gave the
matter enough thought to buy him a present he'd enjoy rather than what
he expected her to buy, a book).  At the Quidditch World Cup in GoF,
it's Harry that she pulls back into his seat when the boys are all
entranced by the veela.>

We don't really know what Hermione gives Ron for Christmas and for his
birthdays, do we? Maybe in one of the first books, but then, Hermione gave
Harry candy that first year. As for the Quidditch World Cup, the seating is
never specified - if Harry is between Ron and Hermione, Hermione wouldn't
have been able to reach Ron, so she just pulled down Harry.

<We the readers are left
with the impression that Harry and Hermione go to classes together, sit
together in classes, leave class together, eat all their meals together,
spend all their time in the common room together and take several long
walks together.  While we have the impression that Hermione believes
both Harry and Ron are being stubborn, she's taken sides to some extent
by spending all or most of her time with Harry during this time period.>

Ron is monopolizing Harry's other close friends, i.e. the other fourth-year
Gryff guys, leaving Harry pretty much on his own. So it would make more
sense for Hermione to spend time with Harry, rather then hanging out with
Ron who has other people to hang out with.

<It's Harry who is the recipient of Krum's jealousy rather than Ron.
Krum says that Hermione talks about Harry "very often."  Although he
might have had the same conversation with Ron, it is implied that he
doesn't regard Ron as a rival for her affections.>

Harry is a rival on Krum's turf - he's internationally famous, and he's very
good at Quidditch for his age group. And a competitor in the Triwizard
Tournament. Whereas Ron is, as far as Krum's concerned, a rather ordinary
sort of guy in comparison (no offense, Ron, Krum just hasn't gotten to know
you yet!).  So Harry would be more of a threat in Krum's eyes.

<She kisses Harry at the end of GoF.  We don't know if she also kissed
Ron and/or Krum, but the fact that she kissed Harry is subtly emphasized
(and might or might not be significant).>

Here in continental Europe, platonic friends kiss all the time as a regular
form of greeting. In fact, I believe the number of kisses varies
country-to-country, and all that. No idea what the custom is in England,
though.

Just offering an alternative point of view - although *my* preferred pairing
(Harry/Cho) has even less evidence than H/H...

~Firebolt




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 20 19:34:29 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:34:29 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8qb0l7+tqe0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qb3g5+frfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1792

The books never mention any hints about a Snape-Lily infatuation. 
Although Snape does have a couple of hang-ups with James...one being 
that James was a good Quidditch player and the other was the Whomping 
Willow incident.

But I have a feeling there's something else involved. Jealousy is one 
thing but to blame James for Sirius' joke is pretty, well, stupid.

milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, hilary_tamar at h... wrote:
> > Leaving Lurk Mode to ask:
> 
> > I just have to ask -- and I hope this doesn't come across as rude 
> or 
> > anything -- but where are people getting that idea? 
> > 
> > We've been told Snape hated James, and we've seen that he hates 
> > Sirius, but how do you figure Lilly into all this?
> > 
> > Back into Lurk Mode...
> > 
> > ht
> 
> HT,
>    I'm still pretty new here but I think the Severus/Lilly link is 
> just a suspicion that's only basis is in Snape's all-consuming 
hatred 
> for James.  I don't think there is any direct evidence either way 
but 
> I think for some it just kind of "feels right" based on what little 
> there is to go on.
>    I don't know, does anyone know of a more concrete reason for 
> believing in this relationship?
>                                     Brian




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 20 19:57:34 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:57:34 -0700
Subject: SS and the functions of dramatis personae (was JKR and narration)
Message-ID: <39C91691.83A7546D@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1793

Hi -- This is Ebony's list of character functions, with examples from
the Sorceror's Stone. I have had to simplify  horribly. Please let me
know what you think. I am not saying that JKR or any author works with
this list in front of her, just that all the traditional elements are present.

1)One of the members of a family absents himself from home. 
	Harry goes to Hogwarts
2)An interdiction is addressed to the hero.
	The third floor corridor is out of bounds
3)The interdiction is violated.
	Filch finds Ron and Harry  trying to force their way through the door  
4)The villain makes an attempt at reconnaissance.
	Quirrel lets in the troll and tries to find out what's guarding the stone
5) The villain receives information about his victim.
	Quirrel discovers Fluffy 
6) The villain attempts to deceive his victim in order to take
possession of him or of his belongings.
	Quirrel tries to trick Hagrid into revealing how to get past Fluffy in
order to get the stone
7) The victim unknowingly helps the villain by being deceived or
influenced by the villain.
	Hagrid talks
8) The villain harms a member of the family or a member of the family
lacks or desires something.
	The stone is endangered/Hagrid receives the dragon egg
9) This lack or misfortune is made known; the hero is given a quest or
command, and he goes or is sent on a mission/quest.
	Harry decides to help Hagrid get rid of the dragon
10) The seeker (often the hero) plans action against the villain.
	Harry decides to get the dragon to  Charlie
11) The hero leaves home.
	Harry leaves Gryffindor tower
12) The hero is tested, attacked, interrogated, and receives either a
magical agent or helper.
	The astronomy tower and  forbidden forest adventures.  The invisibility
 cloak is returned
13) The hero reacts to the actions of the future donor.
	Harry feels certain theres something hes supposed to do. He figures
out that Fluffy has been compromised.
14) The hero uses the magical agent.
	Harry uses the cloak  to leave Gryffindor tower
15) The hero is transferred to the general location of the object of his mission/quest.
       Harry goes through the trap door
 16) The hero and villain join in direct combat.
	Harry vs. Quirrel
17) The hero is branded.
	Harry already has the scar  its significance becomes clear
18) The villain is defeated.
	Quirrel cant get the stone
19) The initial misfortune or lack is set right.
	Harry retrieves the stone, making up for Hagrid's mistake
20) The hero returns home.
	Harry starts to leave
21) The hero is pursued.
	Voldemort/Quirrel tries to stop him	
22) The hero is rescued from pursuit.
	Harry is rescued by Dumbledore
23) The hero arrives home or elsewhere and is not recognized.
	Harry arrives at the leaving feast; no one is quite sure what he's done.
24) A false hero makes false claims.
	Slytherin is about to win the house cup
25) A difficult task is set for the hero.
	Gryffindor is behind by  160 points
26) The task is accomplished.
	Dumble awards the points
27) The hero is recognized.
	Everybody cheers for Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville
28) The false hero/villain is exposed. 
	The Slytherins are stunned
29) The false hero is transformed.
	The wall hangings are changed from Slytherin to Gryffindor
30) The villain is punished.
	The Slytherins lose, Quirrel has died -- but Voldemort gets away and
our story is ...
31) The hero is married and crowned.
	To be continued



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 20 20:01:18 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:01:18 -0700
Subject: Does JKR's Narration Fit The Mold? (long)
Message-ID: <39C9176E.59DEA1E9@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1794

	Sorry it took me so long to respond to thisI had to get my thoughts in
order. What strikes me is how many conventional elements JKR actually
uses. I dont think there is anything wrong with this. Conventional is
just another way to say classic. The only difference with trickster
stories is that a secondary character is married and crowned instead of
the central protagonist, who rides off into the sunset (or the sequel). 
	If you want academic respect for heroic fantasy adventure stories you are
facing an uphill battle. Classically trained professors are (or were)
taught to regard anything later than Homer as derivative and sad endings
as superior to happy ones.   Tolkien had a lot to say on this subject,
read "On Fairy Stories" and "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics"
	What * is * unconventional about JKRs plots is the timing. In a
conventional /classic plot theres a midpoint -- exactly half way
through the story something happens which fundamentally changes the
heros perception of the problem and puts the hero on course to confront
the villain. This is step thirteen in Ebony's list.  For example, in Return
of the Jedi, it is just halfway through the film that Luke finds out for
certain that Darth is his father, Leia is his sister, and "It is I who
must face Vader"
	What JKR does is push this point almost to the end of the story. The
turning point in SS is Harrys realization that Hagrid has betrayed
Fluffys secret and the stone is in peril. "And Im going out of here
tonight and Im going to try and get to the Stone first."  That doesnt
happen till a week before the end of term and about forty pages from the
end. JKRs artistry consists in maintaining our interest over an
unusually long arc, then rushing events to their conclusion, which is
why the final chapters of her books are so intense.  
	The method has some drawbacks. Events pile up so furiously at the end
that its hard to follow the action. I had to read the conclusions of
all the books several times before I felt I understood what was
happening.  Also, the delays dont always seem logical. Why didnt
Quirrel decoy Dumble out of the way and go after the stone as soon as
hed found out how to get past Fluffy (9 weeks before!), why didnt
Pettigrew flee Hogwarts as soon as he realized Black was in the area,
why didnt the false Moody arrange to give Harry a portkey as part of
one of the earlier tasks? CoS seems to have the best handle on this,
with the intervals resulting from Riddle having to wait till someone
writes in the diary. On the other hand, Voldemort and his minions
needn't behave like human beings --  a long period of inactivity
preceding a sudden, violent strike is very snake like.  
		Pippin



From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 20 20:30:29 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:30:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hello and a question about HP in schools
References: <200009201717.NAA08953@hme0.mailrouter04.sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39C91E65.F205B15B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1795

"B." wrote:

> I found the description of Dudley's
> weight jarring, and for a fat child to be sitting in a classroom while
> Dudley's fatness is equated with being an unpleasant person, and set up for
> ridicule, must be very upsetting.

I think Dudley is presented as an unpleasant person who is fat, not a fat
person who is unpleasant, if you get my drift. His being fat is a by-product,
not a cause, and as a fat kid myself, I think I would have picked that up.
Anybody who identifies with Dudley has lots more problems than being fat....

--Amanda, whose three pregnancies didn't help me slim down a bit




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 20 20:34:25 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:34:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
References: <8qanbq+prr5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C91F51.8E86A390@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1796

Brian wrote:

> What if his hatred is
> instead strictly for Harry because of something he did.  I contend
> that Snape was working for Dumbledore and the Ministry to bring down
> Voldy (something we as much already know).  Suppose the night Voldy
> went to kill the Potters, Snape was there.  Perhaps he was Voldy's
> Lietenant or something (he could even have asked to come along
> because of his well-known animosity toward James).  Anyway, he wanted
> to kill or at catch Voldy and may have even cast the curse I
> mentioned above.  Now he was the one who tracked down Voldy, he was
> the one who was going to save Lilly's son, he was going to be the
> hero to every wizard and witch and all of the credit for Voldy's
> downfall ends up going to Harry.  Once again he has been bested by a
> Potter and this time he's an infant.

Cool take. But if Snape was there, wouldn't he have been the one to pick up
Voldemort's wand? So wouldn't the good guys later have it? How does everyone
think Voldemort got his wand back?

>  Note: this would also explain
> Dumbledore's unwavering trust in Snape.

How? It's a good theory, but I don't follow you here. Because Voldemort now
clearly knows Snape was a traitor to him?

--Amanda




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Wed Sep 20 21:16:46 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:16:46 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <39C91F51.8E86A390@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qb9fu+spmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1797

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> >  Note: this would also explain
> > Dumbledore's unwavering trust in Snape.
> 
> How? It's a good theory, but I don't follow you here. Because 
Voldemort now
> clearly knows Snape was a traitor to him?
> 
> --Amanda

Amanda,
   I guess I saw it as Snape must be serious about supporting 
Dumbledore to even consider spying on Voldy and if he followed Voldy 
to the Potters' and attacked him, he's pretty much burned that bridge 
down to the cinders.
                                  Brian




From 100akerwood at sprint.ca  Wed Sep 20 21:18:38 2000
From: 100akerwood at sprint.ca (B.)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:18:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hello and a question about HP in schools
Message-ID: <200009202120.RAA24623@LE0-1.webtst1.sprint.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 1798


> From: Amanda Lewanski > 
> I think Dudley is presented as an unpleasant person who is fat, not a fat
> person who is unpleasant, if you get my drift. His being fat is a
by-product,
> not a cause, and as a fat kid myself, I think I would have picked that
up.
> Anybody who identifies with Dudley has lots more problems than being
fat....
> 
> --Amanda, whose three pregnancies didn't help me slim down a bit

Ok, that makes me feel much better. Was worried about fat children being
uncomfortable and being teased (as they were when I went to school), but
maybe I wasn't giving kids enough credit.  Would like to see Dudley redeem
himself, and feel bad for the harm he caused Harry, Vernon and Petunia did
him no favors by raising him they way they did.
  B.


> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 20 21:56:47 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:56:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chronology (was Brother and Sister??)
References: <8q94oi+mq6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c0234e$1e76d760$ad2978d5@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1799


> Good chronology.  It fits with how I had been thinking of things
> (i.e. I had always figured Voldy was at Hogwarts circa WWII).  Now
> how can we work in our estimates of the Weasleys' ages?

Well, we know Ron is Harry's age, and Ginny a year younger, the twins two
years older than Ron and Percy two years older than them so...

1976 Percy born
1978 Fred and George born
1980 Ron born
1981 Ginny born

Don't know where Bill and Charlie would fit in though.

Jinx




From pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 22:30:15 2000
From: pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com (Pogonia the Harry Potter fan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:30:15 EDT
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
Message-ID: <F281j03oHMwVN7miR9O000001fd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1800

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000  "Brooks R" <brooksar at indy.net> wrote:

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:

>>Perhaps he was Voldy's Lietenant or something (he could even have asked 
>>to come along because of his well-known animosity toward James). Anyway, 
>>he wanted to kill or at catch Voldy and may have even cast the curse I 
>>mentioned above. Now he was the one who tracked down Voldy, he was the 
>>one who was going to save Lilly's son, he was going to be the hero to 
>>every wizard and witch and all of the credit for Voldy's downfall ends up 
>>going to Harry. Once again he has been bested by a Potter and this time 
>>he's an infant.Note: this would also explain Dumbledore's unwavering 
>>trust in Snape.
>
>
>> Anyway, I get these weird ideas every now and then like
>>the "Crabbe and Goyle" theory and the "James took Polyjuice"
>>solution so I would appreciate any thoughts.
>
>Actually I suggested something similar to this back on the Yahoo
>list, around the second week of August. Not posting a 'prior claim' here; 
>instead I am intrigued that someone else came to a similar theory.
>
>-Brooks

::delurking:: It's been done in fanfic too, Harry Potter and the Doomspell 
Potion,   http://home.att.net/~sognirjari/
Email me for the last two chapters, which have been delayed for
several weeks due to web-woes.

Pogonia ::re-lurking::
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Sep 20 22:29:22 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:29:22 +0100
Subject: Harry and someone (romance pairings) and narration
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1801

Penny wrote: "As Carole pointed out, many of the firm H/H "shippers" were
converted (or at least partially converted) by the Paradigm of Uncertainty
fanfic (written by member Lori Summers)."
Firebolt wrote: "the Trio as a whole would be far more imbalanced"

I am only convinced at this outcome if it occurs as it does in PoU. By this
I mean that for Harry and Hermione to happen then Ron will die first. Are
the poll results in for this question (was it here or on PoU that the
question was asked?)?

Penny wrote: "1.  Balance"

Does a couple need to be so totally balanced?

Penny wrote: "2.   JKR's Favorite Characters"

This is the reason why I see Harry and Hermione getting together. As
Hermione is JKR I could see her writing it so that she gets her man!

Penny wrote: "3.   Hermione's Interest:  It can be argued that Hermione has
shown more interest in Harry than in Ron.  She bought him an expensive
broomstick servicing kit for his birthday in PoA (indicating that she gave
the matter enough thought to buy him a present he'd enjoy rather than what
he expected her to buy, a book)."

This could be summed up as indicating the difference between teenage boys
and girls (or maybe the difference between the sexes). Women generally do
spend more time, and put more interest, in the buying of presents (I do not
really want to get into a battle of the sexes debate but I guess most will
know what I mean).

Penny wrote: "When they go to Hogsmeade and Harry is in his invisibility
cloak, Hermione was, from the viewpoint of the other students, alone. Ron
didn't make any attempt to invite her to join him and his group or even
approach her."

But Ron knows about the cloak and probably has a good idea what to look for
to recognise if Harry is there. Also as Ron is unhappy at Harry he may also
be unhappy at Hermione for seeming to be supporting Harry, maybe even share
in his 'fame', and so ignoring her for this reason.

Penny wrote: "and won't inspire a huge circle of arguments."

Having had lots of comments made for one of my FAQ's, I can now see if I can
develop some messages for everyone else FAQ's!

Carole wrote: "Hermione / Draco and one advanced by our own Simon: Harry /
Hedwig  (Harry as an Animagus, of course)"

I have advanced both of these theories. What is it with me and picking some
of the more unusual ideas?

Firebolt wrote: "Here in continental Europe, platonic friends kiss all the
time as a regular form of greeting. In fact, I believe the number of kisses
varies country-to-country, and all that. No idea what the custom is in
England, though."

It is unusual to greet, or say bye to people, in this way in the UK. The
influence of Europe is growing in the UK and so this type of greeting is
becoming more common.

Firebolt wrote: "Just offering an alternative point of view - although *my*
preferred pairing (Harry/Cho) has even less evidence than H/H..."

If I were in a sensible mode then Harry/Cho would be the pairing that I
would say to be my favourite. I think there is definite evidence for Harry
liking Cho. The evidence in the other direction is about as strong as that
for Harry / Hermione. Of course this all has seemingly changed after the
ending of GoF.

"What * is * unconventional about JKR's plots is the timing. In a
conventional /classic plot there's a midpoint -- exactly half way through
the story something happens which fundamentally changes the hero's
perception of the problem and puts the hero on course to confront the
villain. This is step thirteen in Ebony's list.  For example, in Return of
the Jedi, it is just halfway through the film that Luke finds out for
certain that Darth is his father, Leia is his sister, and "It is I who must
face Vader""

This depends on point of view. If you consider the story as being the seven
books (Return of the Jedi is the middle film in a trilogy and so the
revelation is in the middle of the trilogy) then GoF is the middle of the
story and the rebirth (? What word is best to describe what happened) of
Voldemort is the event that causes the fundamental change in Harry's
perceptions.

Simon





From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 20 23:11:16 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:11:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hello and a question about HP in schools
References: <200009202120.RAA24623@LE0-1.webtst1.sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39C94414.34A5143B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1802

"B." wrote:

> Would like to see Dudley redeem
> himself, and feel bad for the harm he caused Harry

I'd like world peace and a lottery win. I wouldn't be holding my breath.

--Amanda




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 20 23:32:43 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:32:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Garment Shop
References: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C9491B.E1801257@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1803



hgiammarco at hotmail.com wrote:

I live in Austria, and there is a particular store that sells

> traditional 'folk' clothing from the region. This stuff is amazing,
> and some of it looks like it came right out of a HP book! They have
> these amazing capes and cloaks..

For people in the U.S., I just bought a cloak that pleased me very much from
these people:

http://www.hmoon.com/

Expensive, but worth it, I think.  I got it at a local Renaissance Festival,
but as you can see, you can order over the Internet.  The one I got was the
Rectangular Yoke Cloak.

Peg





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep 20 23:48:57 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:48:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hello and a question about HP in schools
References: <200009201717.NAA08953@hme0.mailrouter04.sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39C94CE9.147FEC31@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1804



"B." wrote:

> My question is about teaching HP in schools, specifically about Dudley. The
> books are so fun and imaginative, but I found the description of Dudley's
> weight jarring, and for a fat child to be sitting in a classroom while
> Dudley's fatness is equated with being an unpleasant person, and set up for
> ridicule, must be very upsetting.

Oh, possibly, but I really hope not. I mean, Ernie MacMillan is described as a
pudgy in Book 2, and Mrs Weasley is described as, well, more or less padded -
and the Weasley Twins are described as "like a pair of bludgers" and "stocky"
at different points in the books.
I would hope (and I say this as someone who was a little on the padded side
when younger (and teased mericlessly for it at summer camp)) that it doesn't
happen - of course, knowing how evil 9 to 14 year olds can be.....




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 21 00:00:45 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:00:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order
References: <21.11dbeff.26fa4f2b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39C94FAD.256DC1C5@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1805



Tallonclaw at aol.com wrote:

> I remember someone saying something about the Polyjuice potion and since the
> Priori Incantatem spell *was* emphasized so much I was thinking, what if
> James and Lily had taken the potion and turned into each other, and when
> Voldemort came and shot the spell at psudo-James it was really Lily whom he
> killed, and then James as psudo-Lily whom was protecting Harry was killed
> next. I don't know why they would do this but it might tie in with the whole
> Gryffindor heir thing.

Intriguing theory; I was quite taken with it for a few minutes. The one thing
that bothers me about it, however, is that Voldemort reported (and Harry's
memory seems to agree) that Lily "pleaded for Harry's life."  According to this
theory, that would have actually been James--and I have a hard time picturing
James pleading with Voldemort for the life of his son: he'd try to fight
Voldemort instead, even disguised as Lily.

Peg




From drmm at Juno.com  Thu Sep 21 00:01:05 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:01:05 -0500
Subject: Snape/Lily and why it makes sense . . . (at least to me) -- part 1
Message-ID: <20000920.190110.-95567.0.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1806

As promised, here comes my longwinded analysis of why I think Snape was
in love with Lily.  And of course, after explaining that Snape's actions
are best explained by this belief . . . attempt to convert you to this
belief >:) And in rather good timing considering some of the recent
posts. . . 

First off, I'm going to give a brief explanation of how I see Snape's
personality as much of what I think is based on my judgement . . . 

Snape is an intensely emotional person.  While he doesn't want to show
the emotions all his actions are dependent on them.  However, his
emotions tend to be less moderated than most peoples.  I see him as
having two emotions, intense hate and intense love.  There's no in
between for him.  And although he might not have many loyalties he would
do anything for the people whom he is loyal too.

Now. . . on with the show. :)

1) Snape's hatred of James

We all know that Snape hated James.  What's not evident in the books so
far is *why.*  Lupin says that it's because Snape was envious of James'
Quidditch skills.  Quite frankly, I can't buy it.  I'm quite sure that
Snape couldn't stand James as a person and James probably was quite
tormenting as a child (in the ever annoying cruel child way).  However, I
can't see either of these reasons as reasoning for the intense loathing
of James that Snape has displayed.  That and plain dislike (as I see
Draco disliking Harry) are two different things.  But if Snape had fallen
in love with Lily this dislike could easily turn to hatred.  Imagine that
the woman you loved fell for and married the man whom you most despised
in the world.  Wouldn't that make you hate the man even more?  And not
only can't Snape regulate his emotions like most people, his loyalties
are so few that this would be even harder.  So, while most people would
have given up this hatred over the years Snape has been unable too.

2) Snape's interactions with Harry

Snape's actions toward Harry seem frequently contradictory, and IMO, seem
much more explainable by the Snape/Lily theory.  If Snape loved Lily and
hated James wouldn't it make sense that he couldn't *stand* to see the
byproduct (ugh, that sounds clinical) of their love walking around.  And
since it's frequently stated how much Harry looks acts like James it
would be an even bigger slap in the face.  I can't imagine anyone, and
especially Snape, who could see a mini-version of the man you hated with
the eyes of the woman without pain.  Snape, being the type of person he
is, he gets a perverse pleasure out of tormenting Harry as much as
possible.  Making Harry somewhat unhappy is the only way he can deal with
it.  That doesn't make it any more right -- just more understandable IMO.

And as I'm sure there are people going, "But if Snape loved Lily wouldn't
he care about her child even if it was also the child of a man he hated"
I'm going to say that his hatred isn't the only emotion he's going by. 
In the first book, despite the fact that Snape can't stand Harry, he
saves Harry's life.  While he may have owed James a debt by that time
(IMO) that debt has been paid by telling Dumbledore that V. is after them
(more on this later). In PoA, when Harry's life is "put in danger" by his
foolishness in going to Hogsemede he's visibly infuriated (which can be
explained both because he wants Harry to live and that Harry was
squandering his mothers sacrifice).  Again, in GoF, when Harry gets to
participate in the tournament, Snape is also upset because of the danger
that Harry could be in (and the annoyance about breaking rules can't be
the only reason).  Throughout the books Snape seems to be attempting to
protect Harry from his own foolishness.  Harry's escapades, besides
breaking countless rules, put his life in danger.  These contradictions
are best explained by Snape's love of Lily (IMO of course).

blech....That's enough out of me for the moment.  I'll post more (Snape
as a spy and Snape and Sirius) later in a part 2.

And remember, all of this is just my opinion.  I could be wrong or right
so I don't know or claim to know for sure.  I just know I like the idea.
:)

And Penny, if you want to use any of this in a Snape/Lily supporting FAQ,
go ahead ;)  I'll probably be the most vocal supporter of the idea on
this list, that's for sure.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Kiki's Delivery Service
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From JandLComm at aol.com  Thu Sep 21 00:43:21 2000
From: JandLComm at aol.com (JandLComm at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:43:21 -0000
Subject: Schafer's Book (long)
Message-ID: <8qblj9+hpc1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1807

Hello!

I have also been listening in and enjoying the commentary for the 
past several weeks, but I decided I really needed to make some 
comments about this new sourcebook.

I teach seventh grade, and Harry Potter dovetails beautifully with 
our curriculum (which places emphasis on comparative mythology and 
archetypal heroes).  I read about the sourcebook, and I thought it 
might be helpful, so I bought it and read it.

After reading this book, I have to agree with the folks who posted 
responses based on the article or Beacham's web site.  Although there 
are a few interesting ideas included and a helpful list of characters 
from the books, I was rather disappointed overall.  Most of what I 
read either echoed thoughts I already had myself or read on HP fan 
sites -- or they seemed completely forced, often downright absurd.  I 
would be more receptive, perhaps, to some of the bigger stretches, if 
the whole thing didn't have a tone of superiority and finality about 
it.  (i.e. "So you have been wondering about Harry Potter?  Let me 
explain it all to you.  I've figured it all out." Ugh.) I certainly 
hope people do not read this and think of it as the final word on 
interpreting Rowling's work.

A few examples of Schafer's ideas:

History:  Lily Potter might be Eleanor of Aquitaine; the chambers 
(she uses the plural) are like the Minotaur's maze; Neville is a 
court jester; Dobby mimics religious flagellants; Harry, Ron, and 
Hermione are all Joan of Arc; Slytherin's initials (S.S.) suggest 
Nazi stormtroopers; Harry and his friends are like hidden Jewish 
children during WWII; Harry, Hermione and Sirius fly on Buckbeak like 
WWII glider pilots; etc.

Myth: James and Lily Potter are Vulcan and Venus; Vernon Dursley is 
Hades; Percy and his girlfriend are Odysseus and Penelope; the 
Chambers beneath Hogwarts are Pandora's Box; Hogwarts is like Mount 
Olympus; etc.

Bible: Harry Potter includes "numerous" retellings and/or allusions 
to Biblical stories -- Harry's scar is a stigmata or maybe a sign of 
shame like Cain received; Harry is a Christ figure with Ron and 
Hermione as his disciples; Harry is the prodigal son; Harry is like 
Joseph because he has dreams; Harry is lie Moses since Hagrid brought 
him to the Dursleys wrapped in a bundle of blankets, which also 
resemble "swaddling clothes"; The Marauder's Map and the Invisibility 
Cloak are like the forbidden fruit, resulting in transporting Harry 
closer to evil; the Invisibility Coak is like the "Shroud of Turin"; 
Harry is a pious pilgrim; Sirius Black is like Job; Hogwarts is like 
a monestary; etc, etc, etc.  She spends pages and pages on Biblical 
images, but never spends any real time on serpent images.

I could go on.  Elizabeth Schafer certainly did.  She even included 
an entire chapter on food: the students at Hogwarts like to eat and 
they don't ever seem to have to worry about food. 

I'm not sorry I bought the book; there are some useful parts, and the 
fact that it's all gathered together is certainly convenient.  Still, 
overall it seemed to me that she offered far too many implausible 
theories and very little depth on any of the ideas put forth.  I was 
hoping for a resource book that I could use as a desk refernce, but 
instead I found 500 pages of "maybes" and few concrete details to 
support the thoughts.  

Am I the only one who thinks some of those ideas seem a bit 
contrived?  I don't mean to suggest that all of her ideas are "out 
there."  Some were great. In fact, most of the ideas would have merit 
as "food for thought," but the tone of the book does not feel 
like "food for thought."  It's more like "eat your broccoli." Even 
so, I'm not sure "sourcebook" is the best word for 
this.  "Brainstorming book" is more like it.

What do you think?

Linda







From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 21 01:42:06 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:42:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and someone (romance pairings) and narration
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <39C9676E.EE645E96@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1808

Hi --

Simon Branford wrote:

> I am only convinced at this outcome if it occurs as it does in PoU. By
> this I mean that for Harry and Hermione to happen then Ron will die
> first. Are the poll results in for this question (was it here or on
> PoU that the question was asked?)?

It was asked on PoU -- only about 11% of the members have voted but
maybe that's the final outcome.  Low voter turnout.  The results thus
far are 47% favor H/H no matter what, 30% favor H/H as long as Ron is
dead and 9% still favor R/H.

> Penny wrote: "1.  Balance"
>
> Does a couple need to be so totally balanced?

No.  Not always.  This argument makes alot more sense when combined with
the arguments *against* R/H -- that they are too imbalanced.  Ron has
always been overshadowed in all spheres of his life so it seems.  He's
the 6th boy in a family of successful over-achievers, and he's keenly
aware of the what he thinks he needs to live up to for his family.  He
doesn't come out ahead when matched up against his best friend, Harry.
He doesn't come out ahead when matched against his friend Hermione.

I would imagine that when he chooses a romantic partner, he probably
won't want to play second-fiddle in yet another aspect of his life.  He
may not want to necessarily be a *dominant* partner but he probably at
least would want there to be some semblance of equal footing.  I don't
see that happening in any romantic relationship between Ron & Hermione.
Their fighting & squabbling, which looks so cute & Spencer
Tracy/Katherine Hepburn-esque to so many people right now, would, IMO,
degenerate into some really ugly arguments & jealousies on Ron's part.

We've talked alot over the last couple of weeks about Ron's
jealousy/envy, pride, insecurities, etc.  I think any romantic
relationship where those aspects of his personality are triggered on a
routine basis is doomed to fail.

This does *not* mean that *every* romantic relationship must be
perfectly balanced.  But, in Ron's particular case, I think it probably
ought to be.  So . . . . saying that Ron & Hermione are imbalanced
doesn't necessarily mean that Harry & Hermione are perfect for each
other.  But, she's clearly capable of holding her own with him, and he
could rely on her book smarts & common sense.

I'm also not arguing balance vis-a-vis the Trio itself.  Clearly, if
Harry & Hermione were to have a romantic relationship, this would
*unbalance* the Trio is some very fundamental ways.  I agree that Ron &
Hermione dating probably wouldn't have the same devastating effects.
But . . . . my balance argument doesn't relate to this aspect at all.
<g>

> Penny wrote: "and won't inspire a huge circle of arguments."
>
> Having had lots of comments made for one of my FAQ's, I can now see if
> I can develop some messages for everyone else FAQ's!

Fair enough!  <g>

> Firebolt wrote: "Here in continental Europe, platonic friends kiss all
> the time as a regular form of greeting. In fact, I believe the number
> of kisses varies country-to-country, and all that. No idea what the
> custom is in England, though."
>
> It is unusual to greet, or say bye to people, in this way in the UK.
> The
> influence of Europe is growing in the UK and so this type of greeting
> is
> becoming more common.

It strikes me that it would be a bit unusual to do this in the UK
(basing this on the stereotypical reserved Englishman).  In any case,
JKR says it's something Hermione had never done before.  Yeah -- it
could be platonic.  But, as far as we the readers are concerned, Ron
didn't even get a platonic kiss good-bye.  My feeling was just that
there was some subtle emphasis there on JKR's part, and it will be Book
5 or later before we know for sure if meant something or nothing at
all.  And, in any case, the final tally so far is one kiss for H/H and 0
kisses for R/H.  <g>  Sorry, couldn't resist.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 02:18:13 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:18:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and someone (romance pairings) and narration
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39C9676E.EE645E96@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39C96FE5.302A3E27@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1809

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Ron has
> always been overshadowed in all spheres of his life so it seems.  He's
> the 6th boy in a family of successful over-achievers,

He's the 6th boy? Wow, what if there was another Weasley son who
died....Ron'd be a seventh son. Hmmmm. I know, who knows about Arthur's
family, but I always thought it was interesting that there was such a large
run of sons in the Weasley crew....

--Amanda, trying to remember what was supposed to be special about the
seventh son of a seventh son....




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep 21 02:27:20 2000
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:27:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kissing
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000921022720.009a6b64@popmail.dircon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1810

Penny said - on kissing:

>It strikes me that it would be a bit unusual to do this in the UK
>(basing this on the stereotypical reserved Englishman).  In any case,
>JKR says it's something Hermione had never done before.  Yeah -- it
>could be platonic.  But, as far as we the readers are concerned, Ron
>didn't even get a platonic kiss good-bye.  My feeling was just that
>there was some subtle emphasis there on JKR's part, and it will be Book
>5 or later before we know for sure if meant something or nothing at
>all.  And, in any case, the final tally so far is one kiss for H/H and 0
>kisses for R/H.  <g>  Sorry, couldn't resist.

I just dropped in, briefly, to comment on this major debate:

Many British people have a ten-yard exclusion zone when it comes to being
tactile, but it's not a universal trait.  I'm a reserved Englishman and I
kiss people all the time, sometimes on the lips but usually on one cheek.
However, I'm also inclined to shake hands or wave 'hello/goodbye' from
across the room if I don't like the look of the person.  Most other
Europeans go for two or three kisses on alternate cheeks and it comes more
naturally to them, I guess (I remember the first time I visited Germany: I
was quite taken aback at being hugged and kissed by friends of my friends -
I think I'd been expecting them to be really stiff and aloof, possibly
bowing formally and clicking their heels together).    

If Harry and Hermione were 25, a kiss on the cheek could mean nothing at
all, but as young teenagers there is much more significance to it.  A kiss
on the cheek is pretty much 'first base' when you're that age.  Perhaps JKR
was putting old heads on young shoulders though; it would be quite easy to
forget how young these characters are and write in a kiss on the cheek
without thinking about the likelihood of it.

Neil, vanishes again, in a puff of green smoke.  


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

 *****************************************

   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

 *****************************************






From 100akerwood at sprint.ca  Thu Sep 21 02:22:30 2000
From: 100akerwood at sprint.ca (B.)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:22:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hello and a question about HP in schools
Message-ID: <200009210227.WAA29402@hme0.mailrouter03.sprint.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 1811


> From: heidi 

> Oh, possibly, but I really hope not. I mean, Ernie MacMillan is described
as a
> pudgy in Book 2, and Mrs Weasley is described as, well, more or less
padded -
> and the Weasley Twins are described as "like a pair of bludgers" and
"stocky"
> at different points in the books.
> I would hope (and I say this as someone who was a little on the padded
side
> when younger (and teased mericlessly for it at summer camp)) that it
doesn't
> happen - of course, knowing how evil 9 to 14 year olds can be.....

I really hope not too...What exactly does " like a pair of bludgers" mean?
Can't
find where the twins are described except for their red hair, but was
pleased to see that Mrs Weasley who is plump is kind and caring. I wasn't
heavy when I was a kid, but was beaten up for being different, not fun at
all...




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 02:30:50 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:30:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Lily and why it makes sense . . . (at least to  me) -- part 1
References: <20000920.190110.-95567.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39C972DA.D6A17A51@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1812

Dr M M wrote:

<a lot of rather good analysis which states my instinctive "take" much better
than I could, but I think one more supporting point has been missed>

> As promised, here comes my longwinded analysis of why I think Snape was
> in love with Lily.

> I see him as having two emotions, intense hate and intense love.  There's
> no in
> between for him.

I, in fact, have a devoted, bitter enemy who was once a devoted admirer,
whose life was going to end if I didn't love him back. The type does exist.

> 1) Snape's hatred of James

<lots of snippage>

> 2) Snape's interactions with Harry

<more snips>

Now, I add #)  Dumbledore's faith in Snape.

Dumbledore seems, without a stated reason and apparently foolishly,
completely certain that Snape will never revert to being a Death Eater. It
might be that's because Voldemort would kill Snape as soon as he could, for
Snape's perfidy. But that's an external threat, and Snape seems to operate on
internals, those strong emotions. It's my considered opinion that, whatever
the original reason Snape became a spy in Voldemort's camp, Voldemort damned
himself in Snape's eyes when he killed Lily. No matter who she chose, no
matter if Snape had been humiliated, he had loved her and Voldemort made her
dead. In this light, Dumbledore's certainty, and his refusal to elaborate on
that certainty to Harry, both make sense.

>  I just know I like the idea.

Oh, me too. It was one of those "eureka" things that seemed to make lots of
sense. Probably because I've known that Snapelike person (who also idolized
my husband, way before we were married, and now hates him with unreasoning
passion).




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 02:32:46 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:32:46 -0400
Subject: 7th son of 7th son...
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39C9676E.EE645E96@hic.net> <39C96FE5.302A3E27@texas.net>
Message-ID: <01a801c02374$3c5a4020$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1813

Psst.  Orson Scott Card.    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda Lewanski 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry and someone (romance pairings) and narration



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

  > Ron has
  > always been overshadowed in all spheres of his life so it seems.  He's
  > the 6th boy in a family of successful over-achievers,

  He's the 6th boy? Wow, what if there was another Weasley son who
  died....Ron'd be a seventh son. Hmmmm. I know, who knows about Arthur's
  family, but I always thought it was interesting that there was such a large
  run of sons in the Weasley crew....

  --Amanda, trying to remember what was supposed to be special about the
  seventh son of a seventh son....


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bcfrench at rochester.rr.com  Thu Sep 21 03:40:17 2000
From: bcfrench at rochester.rr.com (B.C. French)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:40:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and someone (romance pairings) and narration
In-Reply-To: <39C96FE5.302A3E27@texas.net>
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39C9676E.EE645E96@hic.net> <39C96FE5.302A3E27@texas.net>
Message-ID: <p04310101b5ef338918dc@[24.24.42.142]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1814

At 9:18 PM -0500 9/20/00, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>
>Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>
>>  Ron has
>>  always been overshadowed in all spheres of his life so it seems.  He's
>>  the 6th boy in a family of successful over-achievers,
>
>He's the 6th boy? Wow, what if there was another Weasley son who
>died....Ron'd be a seventh son. Hmmmm. I know, who knows about Arthur's
>family, but I always thought it was interesting that there was such a large
>run of sons in the Weasley crew....
>
>--Amanda, trying to remember what was supposed to be special about the
>seventh son of a seventh son....


It's supposed to be a recipe for someone with particularly strong 
powers. Read Orson Scott Card's THE SEVENTH SON.

...Barb
-- 
Barbara French
bcfrench at rochester.rr.com
-------------------------------
"Never confuse wisdom with luck." -- Rule of Acquisition #44
-------------------------------
Tarantara Somalis: http://www.somalicat.com/tarantara
Fanciers Breeder Referral List: http://www.breedlist.com



From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 02:41:10 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:41:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape/Lily and why it makes sense . . . (at least  to  me) -- part 1
References: <20000920.190110.-95567.0.drmm@juno.com> <39C972DA.D6A17A51@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39C97545.B86611E9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1815

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Now, I add #)  Dumbledore's faith in Snape.

Whoops, I forgot the corollary, Voldemort's equal certainty about "One, who I
believe has left me forever." Why's he so sure? Unless he knows Snape's
character, and understands that all external law and motivation aside, in Snape's
eyes he [V] is guilty of something unforgivable, so that even considering he
might rejoin is wasted thought.

Did I do good, Dr. M M?

--Amanda, hopeless romantic, who notes that torches borne long, in pain or anger,
are still torches borne....




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 02:44:18 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:44:18 -0500
Subject: Seventh sons
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEIOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39C9676E.EE645E96@hic.net> <39C96FE5.302A3E27@texas.net> <p04310101b5ef338918dc@[24.24.42.142]>
Message-ID: <39C97602.9F4DB285@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1816

"B.C. French" wrote:

> It's supposed to be a recipe for someone with particularly strong
> powers. Read Orson Scott Card's THE SEVENTH SON.

No, I mean in traditional folklore. There's a varying host of attributes, some
good and some bad.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 03:03:05 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:03:05 -0500
Subject: 7th/7th sons
References: <20000920.190110.-95567.0.drmm@juno.com> <39C972DA.D6A17A51@texas.net> <39C97545.B86611E9@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39C97A69.230B32F4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1817

I was intrigued, and irritated that I couldn't find my books (note: not surprised;
we've been moving my office and I can't find anything), so I did a quick web search
on the folklore of seventh sons. Ron is, so far as we know, a sixth, but in light of
the interesting speculation that there might have been other Weasleys, here's what I
found.

In most of the Old World, there's something special about 7th sons of 7th sons. It
can be good or bad. In the British Isles, the attributes of a 7th/7th are beneficial.
Off a few sites:

"Healing powers: Some aspects of folk medicine were performed by specific people
known for their healing powers. Some examples of these include:  the clergy, the
seventh son of the seventh son, persons born breech, etc."  (Scotland)

"In Irish folk medicine, a seventh son is credited with the power to heal many
diseases; as proof of his power, it is said that he kills worms by touching them. I
well remember when, as a young boy, I went digging for worms I was told that it was
unwise to have a seventh son help to pick the worms because if he touched them they
would all die."

"DOCTOR: Name given to the seventh son of a seventh son, who is said to have healing
powers." (Irish name list)

However, in Europe being a 7/7 predisposed you to vampirism/werewolfery:

"Locality: RUMANIA (contd.)
 Species: Norferat
 How It Becomes a Vampire: natural causes: by being the illegitimate son of two
 illegitimate parents, or by being the seventh son of a seventh son.
 Special Activities: Makes husbands impotent. "

I assume this belief got to Argentina via Portuguese or Spanish folklore (?):
"In Argentina, people believe that the seventh son of a seventh son turns into the
Lobizon at midnight on the night of the full moon, particularly if this occurs on a
Friday. Col. Juan Domingo Peron, who was president of Argentina from 1943 to 1955,
ordered that all "seventh sons" be baptized in public ceremonies as a means of
stamping out this superstition. "

Now, it's not like JKR to spring stuff on us like this; she always leaves litttle
bread-crumb trails of hints. What my husband calls a "fair" mystery, where you are
given all the clues and have a chance of working them out. But I also think there's
more to Ron than we know yet.

Hope my cursory scan was of interest. Oh, nothing about spiders, sorry. [I hate them
too, Ron....]

--Amanda




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 03:27:30 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:27:30 -0000
Subject: Harry/Hermione
In-Reply-To: <39C90BF9.781BDBBA@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qbv72+p1d1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1818

> None of the teachers seemingly have
> spouses, partners or dates . . . . which is perhaps a bit  
> unrealistic.

I thought the fact that Ron and Harry (along with some other 
students) were allowed to sit at the head table for Xmas in PoA 
implied that some of the teachers had left to visit their families 
for Xmas. After all, there are twelve seats at the head table and if 
there are seats spare some teachers must have left. It's a bit of a 
generalisation to say that NONE of the teachers are involved 
romantically, etc, just because Harry's 'main' teachers (Dumbledore, 
McGonagall, Snape, Hagrid, etc) appear to be alone. Who knows about 
the private lives of 'unknown' professors such as Vector or Sinistra?





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 03:33:37 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:33:37 -0000
Subject: hello and a question about HP in schools
In-Reply-To: <200009210227.WAA29402@hme0.mailrouter03.sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <8qbvih+lmhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1819

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "B." <100akerwood at s...> wrote:
> I really hope not too...What exactly does " like a pair of 
bludgers" mean?
> Can't
> find where the twins are described except for their red hair, but 
was
> pleased to see that Mrs Weasley who is plump is kind and caring. I 
wasn't
> heavy when I was a kid, but was beaten up for being different, not 
fun at
> all...

Oliver Woods describes the twins as human bludgers when he's teaching 
Harry about Quidditch in the chapter "Halloween" in book one.  I took 
this to mean they're energetic, restless, unpredictable, maybe a 
little dangerous.  They're described as stocky in GoF, when Harry 
meets Charlie for the first time, he sees Charlie is "built like the 
twins, shorter and stockier than Ron and Percy, who were both long 
and lanky."  I always picture them as taller than Ron for some 
reason, and of an average build.  Oh, well...

Kelley




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 21 03:50:30 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:50:30 -0000
Subject: Schafer
In-Reply-To: <39C906BD.5EB4610E@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qc0i6+lj3m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1820

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 

<Were those excerpts from a review
> Joywitch or have you read the book itself

I must tell the truth and admit that I have not actually read the 
book, only the review.  Based on the review, I have determined that 
Schafers book sounds like it is worth the price of a drink in the 
bookstore cafe while I browse thru it but not worth the price of 
taking it home.  A less cheap and more thorough HP fanatic, however, 
would probably buy it and read it from cover to cover.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 21 04:05:48 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:05:48 -0000
Subject: Schafer's Book (long)
In-Reply-To: <8qblj9+hpc1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qc1es+3h4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1821

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, JandLComm at a... wrote:

> What do you think? (about the schafer book)

Linda, your comments are very interesting and complete.  I am glad to 
hear from someone who has actually read the book that many of our 
impressions, based on the reviews, were accurate.  After reading all 
the postings on this book, it struck me that we, collectively (the HP 
for grownups newsgroup members, that is) could write a better book.  
Then, it struck me, why dont we?  Seriously, lets take the FAQ and 
turn it into something a publisher would print.  I know there are a 
zillion legal and practical issues, but I think we could do it.  
After all, we are clearly better at analyzing HP than this Schafer 
phony. [And then, lets announce that it is targeted at adults so as 
to force the NY Times to put it on the bestseller list, on the off-
chance that lots of people buy it.]

--Joywitch
 





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 04:28:57 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:28:57 -0000
Subject: Weasley's and that age gap.
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEHICIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8qc2q9+t40m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1822

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" 
> A couple of corrections are needed in here. In PS (Ch13) it is said 
that it
> is seven years since Gryffindor have won the House Cup. It is in 
PoA that it
> is said that it is seven years since they have won the Quidditch 
Cup (PoA
> Chs12 & 15). 

> Simon (who needs to get back to writing these FAQ's)

Simon, and anyone else who's interested--

When you said it was seven years since Gryff won the House Cup in SS, 
I was thinking Quid Cup too.  So, I went back through SS to check, 
and I can't find Quid Cup mentioned anywhere.  When McG confronts 
Harry, Herm, and Neville when they get caught coming  from the tower 
to give Norbert to Charlie's friends (well, Harry and Herm were in 
the tower, Nev was out of bed), McG takes fifty points apiece from 
Gryff to punish them.  (Along with the Forbidden Forest.)  Harry's 
upset because this meant they lost the lead for the HOUSE Cup, the 
lead they'd gotten when Harry won the last Quid match.  If there's a 
Quid Cup as well as a House Cup, winning a Quid match wouldn't affect 
their chances for the House cup would it?  The Quid Cup isn't 
mentioned until CoS, Ch. 7 "Mudbloods and Murmurs", p. 108 Am 
version.  Really, go back through SS, Quid Cup is never mentioned.  
Do you think JKR realized how old it would make Bill and Charlie if 
it had been seven years before SS that they'd gotten out of school?  
Then decided to create and add in the Quid cup so she could say it'd 
been seven years (by PoA) since they'd won the Quid Cup, seven years 
since Charlie was there?  Hope this wasn't too confusing...

Kelley




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Sep 21 06:06:41 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:06:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7th son of 7th son...
Message-ID: <v02140b61b5ef55aa79d9@[140.254.113.101]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1823

>
>Psst.  Orson Scott Card.
>
Don't get me started on the book "Wyrms."  It's the only science fiction
novel that I can tolerate, and I love it to pieces.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "I Am Tiger Woods"  Summers

        I am Dyslexic of Borg.  Prepare to have your Ass Laminated.

Last movie seen:  "Fight Club"
Reigning car-CD:  Enya "Shepherd Moons"
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 05:38:53 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 05:38:53 -0000
Subject: Dept. of Mysteries (was Re: Dumbledore's Mistake)
In-Reply-To: <8q8oaq+pput@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qc6td+se9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1824

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> >
this dept of Mysteries (DoM), could it be where James and Lily 
> worked? 
>> What do we know about the DoM? Not much. We know that Augustus 
> Rookwood was working for Voldemort from inside this dept, and that  
>is a part of the ministry of magic.
>  
> There are two basic interpretations of what the DoM might do.  1) 
> Nobody knows...that's why it is a mystery  2)  They department 
works  on solving and discovering ancient mysteries, this could be 
like any profession from Archeologist to Historian...(Maybe the 
Author of  "Hogworts: A History" worked in this dept...
> 
> Scott

So perhaps James and Lily did work for this Dept.  Since we know so 
little about it, and them, it's certainly a possibility.  What would 
it mean if the author of "Hogwarts: A History"  worked there?  Do we 
even know who the author is?  This made me think of something else-- 
was Salazar Slytherin not always evil?  I say this because apparently 
Gryff, Huffle, and Raven, are 'good' and 'noble', and if this is so, 
why would these three found a school with an evil guy?  Did he turn 
evil after he and Gryff disagreed over allowing muggle-borns in?  Any 
ideas?

Kelley




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Thu Sep 21 06:17:52 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 06:17:52 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem and Snape's Anger
In-Reply-To: <8qas8j+7j4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qc96g+q7nd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1825

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brian " <skywalker1 at i...> wrote:
> 
> >  Perhaps he was Voldy's 
> > Lietenant or something (he could even have asked to come along 
> > because of his well-known animosity toward James).  Anyway, he 
> wanted 
> > to kill or at catch Voldy and may have even cast the curse I 
> > mentioned above.  Now he was the one who tracked down Voldy, he 
was 
> > the one who was going to save Lilly's son, he was going to be the 
> > hero to every wizard and witch and all of the credit for Voldy's 
> > downfall ends up going to Harry.  

> 
> Actually I suggested something similar to this back on the Yahoo
> list, 
> around the second week of August.  Not posting a 'prior claim' 
here; 
> instead I am intrigued that someone else came to a similar theory.
> 
> -Brooks

Brooks,
   I also am heartened to know that someone had the same line of 
thought.  I was discussing this with a friend today and we came up 
with a further theory along these lines.  Assuming Snape was there, 
he could have picked up Voldemort's wand and killed James with it.  
Taking this one step further, maybe he kept the wand until PS/SS 
where it was retrieved by Quirrel/Voldy.  Granted, this doesn't 
explain Voldy's belief that he killed James first unless you consider 
the 'Polyjuice solution' or the 'Cruciatus or Imperius rather than AK 
Curse' solution.
   Sorry if this was also part of your previous post but this Priori 
Encantatum thing really has my curiosity on over-drive.
                                              Brian




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 21 06:34:20 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:34:20 -0500
Subject: 7th Son and Department 56
References: <969504122.1449@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C9ABEC.B2DC4A34@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1826

Actually the max powers are in the case of 7th son of a 7th son born
under a caul - and those are supposed to be capable fortune tellers, not
necessarily powerful at active magic.

I tonight again stopped in at the local store which carries Dept/ 56
mechandise.  They were now at least able to tell me that they expected
to have the Potter stuff in in November.
I think I am going to have to get at least Hermione on the stack of
books - I'm in love with the picture.

-Brooks



From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 09:47:36 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:47:36 +1000
Subject: setting the cat down
References: <8qaai1+7cf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE3A91E9GQvnbEG10Ga00000454@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1827

I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy buddies who care for each other very much (face it, it's another reason for Dumbeldore to put up with Sanpe's atrotios - opps, can't spell, very bad behaviour. It was this love that brought Snape back from the Death Eaters in the first place, love redemed his soul.

Right, I can stop now :-)

btw what is IIRC? usually I'm pretty quick but that has me stumped!

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Garment Shop and Hermione...



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  I live in Austria, and there is a particular store that sells 
  traditional 'folk' clothing from the region. This stuff is amazing, 
  and some of it looks like it came right out of a HP book! They have 
  these amazing capes and cloaks...I will try to take some pictures and 
  scan them in to you guys. Bare with me - this may take a while 'cause 
  I don't have a scanner. 

  Another topic: A friend and I were discussing Harry's possibilities 
  for a future partner. She thinks that JKR has Harry's future pinned
  in 
  with Hermione... I am leaning towards the idea that Harry is
  careening 
  towards single-hood, much like Dumbledore. Hermione just seems a 
  little too close to become a future romance. They are best friends. 
  And then where would that leave Ron?

  Any thoughts?

  Helena


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 10:23:34 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:23:34 +1000
Subject: House Cup and Quid Cup
References: <8qc2q9+t40m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE8wsXZZTHfyQgeDKvP00000488@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1828

Kelly said - 

When you said it was seven years since Gryff won the House Cup in SS, 
I was thinking Quid Cup too.  So, I went back through SS to check, 
and I can't find Quid Cup mentioned anywhere.  When McG confronts 
Harry, Herm, and Neville when they get caught coming  from the tower 
to give Norbert to Charlie's friends (well, Harry and Herm were in 
the tower, Nev was out of bed), McG takes fifty points apiece from 
Gryff to punish them.  (Along with the Forbidden Forest.)  Harry's 
upset because this meant they lost the lead for the HOUSE Cup, the 
lead they'd gotten when Harry won the last Quid match.  If there's a 
Quid Cup as well as a House Cup, winning a Quid match wouldn't affect 
their chances for the House cup would it?  The Quid Cup isn't 
mentioned until CoS, Ch. 7 "Mudbloods and Murmurs", p. 108 Am 
version.  Really, go back through SS, Quid Cup is never mentioned.  
Do you think JKR realized how old it would make Bill and Charlie if 
it had been seven years before SS that they'd gotten out of school?  
Then decided to create and add in the Quid cup so she could say it'd 
been seven years (by PoA) since they'd won the Quid Cup, seven years 
since Charlie was there?  Hope this wasn't too confusing...


I think (thou I've no evidence to support it) that the Quid Cup is a sub set of the house cup - that mostly the house who wins at Quid (as main point scoring activity ) will win the house cup - but not always (eg the end of PS/SS).

As I said, no evidence - do any of the Brits know how these things work in UK schools?

storm

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kelley 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 2:28 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley's and that age gap.



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Simon Branford" 
  > A couple of corrections are needed in here. In PS (Ch13) it is said 
  that it
  > is seven years since Gryffindor have won the House Cup. It is in 
  PoA that it
  > is said that it is seven years since they have won the Quidditch 
  Cup (PoA
  > Chs12 & 15). 

  > Simon (who needs to get back to writing these FAQ's)

  Simon, and anyone else who's interested--

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Thu Sep 21 12:15:14 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:15:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
References: <21.11dbeff.26fa4f2b@aol.com> <39C94FAD.256DC1C5@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000921131514.F53.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1829


Hallo all,

I joined the list a short while ago and I very much enjoy reading
your insights. 

The Priori Incantatem Order is odd. I don't think either that Rowling
just made a mistake. My favorite theory is that it has something do
with Lily herself. Mr. Ollivander's remark about her wand seems to
indicate that charms were her specialty. I think that's the real
reason why she was the one to take Harry and run while James stood
his ground with Voldemort. She was the one who could do the charm
that was the only chance for Harry to survive, with motherly love
being a key ingredient. 

As for the Polyjuice Potion theory, there's another point that
doesn't fit the picture. Even if there was a strong enough reason to
keep the heirs of Gryffindor alive (assuming that James and Harry are
his descendants) to make James trade places and appearance with his
wife and put her up as Voldemorts prime target, did he really have
reason to think Voldemort would let Lily live, given his hatred of
muggle-born wizards?

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 21 11:53:13 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 06:53:13 -0500
Subject: Quidditch Cup & House Cup
References: <8qc2q9+t40m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39C9F6A9.41D6BE39@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1830

Hi --

Kelley wrote:

> When you said it was seven years since Gryff won the House Cup in SS,
> I was thinking Quid Cup too.  So, I went back through SS to check,
> and I can't find Quid Cup mentioned anywhere.

Chapter 10 (PS) -- Oliver Wood tells Harry that the Quidditch Cup will
have their name on it this year.  We aren't told who won the Quidditch
Cup since Harry missed the last match, but it would have been whoever
was behind Gryffindor in Quidditch matches.  Probably Slytherin since
they were ahead in terms of House points in the race for House Cup &
winning the Quidditch Cup yields a high number of points for the House
who wins it (not sure if it's ever said exactly how many).

> If there's a Quid Cup as well as a House Cup, winning a Quid match
> wouldn't affect their chances for the House cup would it?

Yeah -- the House that wins it gets more points (either because there's
a set # of points awarded for winning the Quidditch Cup or because each
win at a Quidditch match yields a certain # of points (50?) and it
stands to reason then that the team that wins the most matches, would
get the most points toward the House Cup.

> Do you think JKR realized how old it would make Bill and Charlie if
> it had been seven years before SS that they'd gotten out of school?
> Then decided to create and add in the Quid cup so she could say it'd
> been seven years (by PoA) since they'd won the Quid Cup, seven years
> since Charlie was there?  Hope this wasn't too confusing...

I'm not sure she's even yet cognizant of how confused we are all about
Bill & Charlie's ages.  Maybe it will be clearly spelled out in Book 5.
In any case, she didn't make up the Quidditch Cup to try & rectify the
age gap question since the Quidditch Cup is mentioned in PS (Ch 10).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Sep 21 13:08:35 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 21 Sep 2000 06:08:35 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7th son of 7th son...
Message-ID: <20000921130835.21163.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1831

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000921/4b379334/attachment.ksh>

From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 13:04:47 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:04:47 -0400
Subject: Ha-li-Bo-te (Harry Potter in Chinese)
Message-ID: <006401c023cc$84ee8aa0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1832

Here's the story link:

http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2569961553-5bc


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 21 14:38:12 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:38:12 -0000
Subject: in the meantime
Message-ID: <8qd6gk+j6v7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1833


Bedina wrote
> >I have particularly enjoyed fiction by Cassandra Claire and 
> by Blaise on the fanfiction.net.  Search for those author 
> names.  Other people have recommended Hyphen and Wolfie Twins >
> 
> Hmmmm, don't these authors primarily write early stuff 
> (James, Lily, Remus, etc)? That's great, but what about good 
> stories about Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Harry Potter and the 
> Doomspell Tournament is a very good alternate of book IV 
> http://home.att.net/~sognirjari/), but it would be nice to 
> have
> other rec's for good HP & friends stories.  
> 

Cassandra's two stories (Draco Dormiens (finished) and Draco Sinister 
(only up to ch. 2 so far) are both about HP & Co. in and after their 
6th year.




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 14:46:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:46:24 -0500
Subject: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qc6td+se9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CA1F3F.88220E02@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1834

Kelley wrote:

> This made me think of something else--
> was Salazar Slytherin not always evil?  I say this because apparently
> Gryff, Huffle, and Raven, are 'good' and 'noble', and if this is so,
> why would these three found a school with an evil guy?

I don't think he started evil--nobody does. But the characteristics that he
valued--ambition, etc.--are those which can most easily lead to
conscienceless actions and evil. I don't think that House attracts evil
people, so much as it contains people whose personalities and values
predispose them to fall to the lure of evil means to an end.

Did that make sense?

--Amanda




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 21 15:05:06 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:05:06 -0000
Subject: usa today transcript
Message-ID: <8qd832+gfqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1835

I am posting this because I've never seen it mentioned here before- 
right before Boook IV came out, Arthur Levine, publisher of the 
books, did a live chat on USA TODAY - the transcript is at 
http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat/0628levine.htm - nothing 
earthshaking (unless reading that the "K" stands for Kathleen) but a 
good quick read nonetheless.




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 21 15:43:37 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:43:37 -0000
Subject: IIRC and other internet shorthand; Snape's relation to V and Harry
In-Reply-To: <OE3A91E9GQvnbEG10Ga00000454@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qdab9+spps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1836

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:

> btw what is IIRC? usually I'm pretty quick but that has me stumped!

BTW of course being "By the way".... IIRC is in the same category: 

"If I remember* correctly".  *or recall.

These are the other most common ones:

LOL - laugh out loud  (implied that this is in response to a joke 
someone made, or I am laughing as I am saying something)
ROFL or ROTFL  - Rolling on the floor laughing
ROFLMAO  or ROTFLMAO - Rolling on the floor laughing my a** (or a***, 
if you're British) off.
IMO - in my opinion
IMHO  - in my humble opinion
imhotep - an Egyptian Pharaoh, not an internet shortcut!
IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
<g> grin - a different version of the 'smiley' :-)
(snip)  - not an abbreviation, but an indication that some quoted 
material is removed, as less relevant to the reply.

There are others, but these seem by far the most common.

On Snape's relation to Voldy and Harry, you've actually taken my 
theory further by speculating that Snape had gone with him to the 
house.

This is from a backchannel discussion I had with Vicki, before we 
separated these back out and posted them as notes on the Yahoo list 
circa 11 August.  Mine are the >'s, Vicki's the plain.

> This made me think of a possible different motivation for Snape's 
attitude
> toward Harry as well.
>  - What would Snape have done if Harry had been put in Slytherin?  
Would
> he
> have accepted Harry more?  I wonder if some of Snape's attitude may 
just
> be
> favoritism toward his own house.  What must he think of  Malfoy, 
Crabb &
> Goyle, too, knowing of their parents?  (Plus, what must the parents 
think
> of
> their kids being under Snape, if they know he was the spy in *their*
> midst?)
> 
        Yes, Snape definitely seems to favor his house but the 
animosity
towards Harry goes much MUCH deeper than house rivalry.  He lets 
Malfoy 
get
away with murder and seems, just my thoughts, to favor him even over 
other
Slytherins.  Maybe this is to lull Lucious into a false sense of
commaraderie or maybe its just the house.  The problem is that Snape 
is 
not
just a little against Harry.  He is grossly amazingly unfair in the 
points
situation.   (snip)

        Plus, I know that some people are starting to see Snape as the
secret hidden, dark hero, but to me he is still slime, even if he is 
not on
Voldy's side.  For all he dislikes and is hard on Harry, IMO, nothing 
makes
up for what he did to Hermione.  "I don't see any difference."  That 
is
horrible and completely inexcusable from a professor and I just can't
forgive him for that completely unnecessary hateful remark to a 14 
year
girl.  He could have let Malfoy get away with his curses without
deliberately stomping on a 14 year girl at a vulnerable moment.

> heads, but.... consider this scenario.  What if Snape was not just 
the spy
> in Lord V's camp, but was in fact considering moving against him - 
maybe
> working on a potion that would confer (even temporary) immunity to 
the A.
> K.
> curse, just to toss out an idea - and was lining up plans for the
> challenge,
> when Lord V. went after Harry & the Potters, and was defeated, so 
Snape
> never had his chance - after all, what a hero he would have been if 
he had
> defeated V from within the ranks, turned over the other DE's, said
- 
"I
> believed him at first but I came to see that he was wrong, there is 
not
> just
> power, there really is good and evil and Lord V. was evil".  But 
Harry,
> albeit innocently, by surviving and making V. discorporate, foiled 
Snape's
> plan for his spectacular rehabilitation and heroism.  Boy, that 
would 
be
> frustrating!
> (This also ties into disappointment at not catching Black in Book 
III - that might have been seen as a further chance to rehabilitate 
himself in wizarding public's eye too, but was also foiled by Harry.)


Interesting theory.  I kind of like it.  Dont know that I agree with 
it, but
I like it.

END QUOTED MATERIAL
SO you can see we had similar ideas, but the variation of Snape
having 
even gone with Voldy to the Potter's house is interesting.  I 
hypothesized instead that Snape had been the one to warn Dumbledore 
that Voldy was on the way, but it had turned out to be too late.  In 
fact, there is probably a nice little bit of fanfic one might write, 
if one took that tack, on what happened to *make* it too late.  Also 
interesting someone had suggested Lily was working on an anti-AK 
charmm, whereas I had suggested (and forgot) that Snape may have been 
working on an AK-vaccine potion.

-Brooks







From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 10:32:02 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:32:02 +1000
Subject: evil Slytherin
References: <8qc6td+se9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE20gr3SU0hXCRQcqmS00000413@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1837

Slytherin is not inheretly evil - It/He is about ambition - now if that's your primary thing you are *likely* to get in to trouble - but not always. some ambious ppl turn out to be good folk (no examples, sorry). I think JKR overplays the horrible nature of the Slytherins in the physical descriptions (but I love them). thinking of Snape, he is not *all* bad, (though it appears he had a go at it being a death eater).

excess of anything (even bravery or cleverness) can be unpleasant and lead one into dark ways.

anyway I'm tired so I don't know that i'm making any sence but READ THE SORTING HAT'S SONGS (opps shouting, sorry.) I've lent my copy of PS to a friend but we had this very self same argument last night!

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kelley 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 3:38 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dept. of Mysteries (was Re: Dumbledore's Mistake)



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
  wrote:
  > >
  this dept of Mysteries (DoM), could it be where James and Lily 
  > worked? 
  >> What do we know about the DoM? Not much. We know that Augustus 
  > Rookwood was working for Voldemort from inside this dept, and that  
  >is a part of the ministry of magic.
  >  
  > There are two basic interpretations of what the DoM might do.  1) 
  > Nobody knows...that's why it is a mystery  2)  They department 
  works  on solving and discovering ancient mysteries, this could be 
  like any profession from Archeologist to Historian...(Maybe the 
  Author of  "Hogworts: A History" worked in this dept...
  > 
  > Scott

  So perhaps James and Lily did work for this Dept.  Since we know so 
  little about it, and them, it's certainly a possibility.  What would 
  it mean if the author of "Hogwarts: A History"  worked there?  Do we 
  even know who the author is?  This made me think of something else-- 
  was Salazar Slytherin not always evil?  I say this because apparently 
  Gryff, Huffle, and Raven, are 'good' and 'noble', and if this is so, 
  why would these three found a school with an evil guy?  Did he turn 
  evil after he and Gryff disagreed over allowing muggle-borns in?  Any 
  ideas?

  Kelley


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Sep 21 16:29:31 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:29:31 -0000
Subject: IIRC and other internet shorthand, then almost OT
In-Reply-To: <8qdab9+spps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qdd1b+5ec5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1838


> IMHO  - in my humble opinion
> imhotep - an Egyptian Pharaoh, not an internet shortcut!
> IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion

Actually, Imhotep wasn't a pharoah. He was a physician and architect. 
He designed the first Egyptian pyramid for Zoser (Djoser), which was 
of the step design, part way between a ziggurat and the more typical 
flat-faced pyramid. (The librarian in me rears its ugly head...)

But hey, I'm not off topic, not if you figure that good old Imhotep 
may be responsible for some of those funky curses Ron's brother 
spends his time trying to break for Gringotts!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 21 16:40:25 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:40:25 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <39CA1F3F.88220E02@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qddlp+35ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1839

It makes sense Kelley. It all has to do with choices. The books state 
that Slytherin put out the most Dark wizards (that means to me the 
other houses put out a number of their own too!). That means there 
were some Slytherins who probably chose not to ally themselves with V.

As for Salazar Slytherin, he split from the group over disagreements 
with Muggle-borns being admitted to Hogwarts. I don't think you can 
call that "evil" per se, but definitely how his views were 
interpreted by V was evil.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Kelley wrote:
> 
> > This made me think of something else--
> > was Salazar Slytherin not always evil?  I say this because 
apparently
> > Gryff, Huffle, and Raven, are 'good' and 'noble', and if this is 
so,
> > why would these three found a school with an evil guy?
> 
> I don't think he started evil--nobody does. But the characteristics 
that he
> valued--ambition, etc.--are those which can most easily lead to
> conscienceless actions and evil. I don't think that House attracts 
evil
> people, so much as it contains people whose personalities and values
> predispose them to fall to the lure of evil means to an end.
> 
> Did that make sense?
> 
> --Amanda




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 21 17:11:51 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:11:51 -0000
Subject: IIRC and other internet shorthand, then almost OT
In-Reply-To: <8qdd1b+5ec5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qdfgn+103i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1840

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
> 
> > IMHO  - in my humble opinion
> > imhotep - an Egyptian Pharaoh, not an internet shortcut!
> > IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
> 
> Actually, Imhotep wasn't a pharoah. He was a physician and 
architect. 
 (snip)

Whoa, good catch!   My apologies and thanks for the correction!

-Brooks




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Sep 21 17:52:24 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:52:24 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My theory on Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <8q8nul+872g@eGroups.com>
References: <8q8keq+v0ml@eGroups.com> <8q8nul+872g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bibkss0q5fa1kp1be8cp7aigvhprtjhp5l@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1841

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:05:09 -0000, Steves Bates wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this list, I have been lurking for about three weeks now,
waiting patiently for something to comment. :)

>Remember, there has to be some explanation for the destruction of the 
>house as well, which wouldn't normally be caused by Avada Kedavra.  

I think it happened because the AK curse *backfired*. If I remember
well, in CoS the ceiling of the tunnel that led to the chamber broke
down when Lockhart took the blast of his own Memory Charm, caused by
Ron's broken wand. If a failed Memory Charm can do this, the blast
from an AK curse would be even more powerful, wouldn't it? 

Greetings,
Monika



--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 18:04:50 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (hilary_tamar at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:04:50 -0000
Subject: Snape/Lily and why it makes sense . . . (at least to me) -- part 1
In-Reply-To: <20000920.190110.-95567.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <8qdik2+u15d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1842

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dr M M <drmm at J...> wrote:
> Snape is an intensely emotional person.  While he doesn't want to 
>show the emotions all his actions are dependent on them.  However, 
>his emotions tend to be less moderated than most peoples.  I see him 
>as having two emotions, intense hate and intense love.  There's no in
> between for him.  And although he might not have many loyalties he 
>would do anything for the people whom he is loyal too.

I agree with you on the matter of loyalty. Not sure I'd peg him as 
having only those two emotions, though he can get ... intense about 
things.

He's also REAL good at holding a grudge.

> We all know that Snape hated James.  What's not evident in the 
>books so far is *why.*  Lupin says that it's because Snape was 
>envious of James' Quidditch skills.  Quite frankly, I can't buy it.  

Neither can I. 

>But if Snape had fallen
> in love with Lily this dislike could easily turn to hatred.  

I'm going to offer an alternate theory that still fits in with your 
theory of Snape's emotions. What if it wasn't Lily Snape was in love 
with, but James? 

Consider handsome, smart, athletic, popular James Potter -- a 
crush could develop quite easily. It may not even have been 
homoerotic, though that would be a really interesting twist -- it 
could have been plain hero-worship. Think Colin Creavy, only more so.

It would make him predisposed to hate Sirius, too, out of jealousy.

Then when Sirius pulled that vicious prank on Snape, and James went 
along with it until the last minute, well, how would you feel? 

I'd be pissed. Especially if James reacted to Snape's love/crush 
(platonic or otherwise) with disdain or derision. 

And yes, I know they were in different houses, but that wouldn't stop 
an attachment from growing, especially since Slytherin and Gryffindor 
have classes together.

> Snape's actions toward Harry seem frequently contradictory, and 
>IMO, seem much more explainable by the Snape/Lily theory. 
 
Or by seeing James physically reborn in Harry. They seem to have 
similar personality traits, too.

> Making Harry somewhat unhappy is the only way he can deal with
> it.  That doesn't make it any more right -- just more 
>understandable IMO.

While I can hold a grudge as long as the next person, Snape's strikes 
me as too obsessive. I do worry about him.

> And remember, all of this is just my opinion.  I could be wrong or 
right
> so I don't know or claim to know for sure.  

Ditto on this being my opinion. 

>I just know I like the idea.

So do many other people, I guess. Takes all kinds. <grin, duck & run>

Another objection I have to the Snape/Lily thing is that it's just 
too sappy for words. Way too romance novel for my tastes. Not to 
mention very convenient. And if JKR DOES use it as the raison d'etre 
for Snape's actions, I shall be physically ill. <g>

I'm re-reading PoA now (The British ediion. Three cheers for Canadian 
bookstores!) and hope to develop my theory further after I'm done 
with it.

ht





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 18:42:15 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:42:15 -0000
Subject: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <OE3A91E9GQvnbEG10Ga00000454@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qdkq7+ivmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1843

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
> I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy 
buddies who care for each other very much (face it, it's another 
reason for Dumbeldore to put up with Sanpe's atrotios - opps, can't 
spell, very bad behaviour. It was this love that brought Snape back 
from the Death Eaters in the first place, love redemed his soul.
> 
> Right, I can stop now :-)
> 
> btw what is IIRC? usually I'm pretty quick but that has me stumped!
> 
> storm

Storm--

IIRC-- If I Remember/Recall Correctly

Kelley




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Sep 21 18:51:50 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:51:50 -0000
Subject: beware the little guys
In-Reply-To: <8qdik2+u15d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qdlc6+3qg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1844


> 
> Consider handsome, smart, athletic, popular James Potter -- a 
> crush could develop quite easily. It may not even have been 
> homoerotic, though that would be a really interesting twist -- it 
> could have been plain hero-worship. Think Colin Creavy, only more 
so.
> 

It's always the ones that seem so insignificant...

I have always said that the most dangerous persons to Harry aren't 
Malfoy and his cronies, it's Colin and Dennis. Harry constantly 
brushes them off, "nearly flattens the little Creavey brothers" on 
several occasions, and generally treats them as if they don't exist. 
There's a frightening potential there for something to crack. 

And the most potential for good? The house elves. When Dumbledore 
figures out how to harness their powers and turn them on Voldemort, 
it will be...well, it will be kind of like the Ewoks in Return of the 
Jedi. 

Sort of.

Okay, now I'm mixing up my modern day mythologies...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 19:03:17 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:03:17 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Cup & House Cup
In-Reply-To: <39C9F6A9.41D6BE39@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qdm1l+hc8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1845

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Chapter 10 (PS) -- Oliver Wood tells Harry that the Quidditch Cup 
will have their name on it this year.  We aren't told who won the 
Quidditch Cup since Harry missed the last match, but it would have 
been whoever was behind Gryffindor in Quidditch matches.  Probably 
Slytherin since they were ahead in terms of House points in the race 
for House Cup & winning the Quidditch Cup yields a high number of 
points for the House who wins it (not sure if it's ever said exactly 
how many).

Aargh!  You're right Penny.  I found it just where you said.  Well, 
so much for that theory. ;o] 
 
the House that wins it gets more points (either because there's
> a set # of points awarded for winning the Quidditch Cup or because 
each win at a Quidditch match yields a certain # of points (50?) and 
it stands to reason then that the team that wins the most matches, 
would get the most points toward the House Cup.

Okay, I see.  Actually McG tells the kids she's gong to deduct 50 pts.
from Gryff., Harry thinks "We'll lose the lead for the House Cup that 
I just won in the last quid match,"  Then McG says 50 points apiece.  
So, maybe the winning team gets the amount of points they get in the 
game added to their house points.
 
> I'm not sure she's even yet cognizant of how confused we are all 
about Bill & Charlie's ages.  Maybe it will be clearly spelled out in 
Book 5. In any case, she didn't make up the Quidditch Cup to try & 
rectify the age gap question since the Quidditch Cup is mentioned in 
PS (Ch 10).
> 
> Penny

Yeah, you're probably right (about JKR not seeing the age gap).  I 
hope she does address this.  Too bad we can't get in touch with her--
she probably gets tons of letters, she can't read them all.  Maybe 
she checks out this site from time to time--Ha!

Thanks for straightening me out.

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 19:14:24 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:14:24 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <39CA1F3F.88220E02@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qdmmg+sp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1846

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I don't think he started evil--nobody does. But the characteristics 
that he
> valued--ambition, etc.--are those which can most easily lead to
> conscienceless actions and evil. I don't think that House attracts 
evil
> people, so much as it contains people whose personalities and values
> predispose them to fall to the lure of evil means to an end.
> 
> Did that make sense?
> 
> --Amanda

Amanda--

That makes a lot of sense, very well put.  So, would you think 
something happened after Slyth's fight w/ Gryff to send Slyth down 
the evil road?  Or was it the fight itself?  It seems this is 
something else to wonder about, maybe this has something to do with 
what James and Lily were doing for a living, finding out what 
happened / was going on with Slyth?  Maybe I'm reaching?

Thanks for the reply.

Kelley 




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Sep 21 19:36:06 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:36:06 -0000
Subject: cool book from Scholastic
Message-ID: <8qdnv6+snk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1847

My son just came home with a very cool book he ordered from the 
Scholastic Book Order. It's called Harry Potter Coloring Fun Book and 
it has some VERY nice artwork in it. The one of Snape glaring over 
Harry's shoulder in Potions is wonderful. You can only get this 
through the school orders, so if you don't have kids, you might have 
to call Scholastic and whine a little. I plan to order one of these 
for myself, since my son didn't take to the idea of not coloring in 
his. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 20:10:50 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:10:50 -0000
Subject: evil Slytherin
In-Reply-To: <OE20gr3SU0hXCRQcqmS00000413@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qdq0a+1gkf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1848

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
> Slytherin is not inheretly evil - It/He is about ambition - now if 
that's your primary thing you are *likely* to get in to trouble - but 
not always. some ambious ppl turn out to be good folk (no examples, 
sorry). I think JKR overplays the horrible nature of the Slytherins 
in the physical descriptions (but I love them). thinking of Snape, he 
is not *all* bad, (though it appears he had a go at it being a death 
eater).
> 
> excess of anything (even bravery or cleverness) can be unpleasant 
and lead one into dark ways.
> 
> anyway I'm tired so I don't know that i'm making any sence but READ 
THE SORTING HAT'S SONGS (opps shouting, sorry.) I've lent my copy of 
PS to a friend but we had this very self same argument last night!
> 
> storm

Oh, you're right, I completely agree, the Slyth House is not looking 
for 'evil' qualities in its students, I was thinking specifically
of Salazar Slytherin himself.  When he, Godric, Helga, and Rowena 
founded HW, he (Slyth) must not have been evil at the time, but at 
some point after his falling out with Gryff, turned evil.  Why?  Just 
because he wanted only 'pure-bloods' and the rest (GG, HH, RR) wanted 
to allow muggle-borns too?  Could that be all there was to it?

Kelley




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep 21 20:14:40 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:14:40 -0700
Subject: JKR answers our questions....
In-Reply-To: <8qdm1l+hc8o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEIICCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1849

You wrote:
>>>>>Yeah, you're probably right (about JKR not seeing the age gap).  I hope
she does address this.  Too bad we can't get in touch with her-- she
probably gets tons of letters, she can't read them all.  Maybe  she checks
out this site from time to time--Ha!<<<<<<<


Someone must be monitoring fan discussions and passing on some of the major
concerns to Ms. Rowling.  She specifically answered several minor points of
dispute or curiosity.  Two instances that spring to mind:

1.  The pronunciation of Hermione's name -- taken care of in Goblet of Fire

2.  Harry's stinginess/generosity in the matter of gifts -- also
specifically shown in GoF when Harry's gifts to Ron and Hermione were
featured.
(I don't consider Harry's handing-over of the thousand Galleons to Fred &
George as an act of generosity.  It was really a good solution for what to
do with the prize money he didn't want and didn't feel he deserved.}

I think that if JKR is aware of these points, she'll find a way to work in
the answers to other questions we have, as long as the answers don't
interfere with the natural flow of her pre-planned story lines for Books 5,
6, and 7.


======================================================
When I am an Evil Overlord....
#218. I will not pick up a glowing ancient artifact
and shout "Its power is now mine!!!" Instead I will
grab some tongs, transfer it to a hazardous materials
container, and transport it back to my lab for study.
======================================================





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 20:25:34 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:25:34 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <8qddlp+35ho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qdqru+v5rr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1850

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
milz:  > It makes sense Kelley. It all has to do with choices. The 
books state that Slytherin put out the most Dark wizards (that means 
to me the other houses put out a number of their own too!). That 
means there were some Slytherins who probably chose not to ally 
themselves with V. 

Kelley:  That's true, not all people who were in the house Slyth 
became dark.  Interesting.  There is one point, I think in SS, that 
Hagrid says that there were no wizards that went dark that ~weren't~ 
in Slyth, so I took this to mean that no one from the other houses 
followed Vold, but then wouldn't this mean that Pettigrew must have 
been in Slyth?  Maybe Pettigrew and the rest of the Marauders were in 
Slyth when they were at HW.  And Lily was in Gryff (because she was 
descended from Gryff-- AAAAH! Here I go...!).

> As for Salazar Slytherin, he split from the group over disagreements
> with Muggle-borns being admitted to Hogwarts. I don't think you can 
> call that "evil" per se, but definitely how his views were 
> interpreted by V was evil.
 
So, do you think this disagreement with the other three is what made 
Slyth turn evil?

Kelley--who's really enjoying all this discussion




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 20:35:32 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:35:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: evil Slytherin
References: <8qdq0a+1gkf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CA7113.2F29A8F0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1851

Kelley wrote:

> Why?  Just
> because he wanted only 'pure-bloods' and the rest (GG, HH, RR) wanted
> to allow muggle-borns too?  Could that be all there was to it?

That's a hell of an "all." That's pretty much all there ever is to all the
various attempts at genocide. It involves a very basic human tribal pattern,
Us/Them, and a very, very basic human personal pattern, Power To Me. When
those ingrained thought/behavior patters get intertwined, they become Power
To Us---which all too often becomes Non-Power [or worse] to Them. And
because of the Us/Them psychological thing, those who disagree, even if they
once were friends, eventually are perceived as threats, enemies, danger.
Defend Us! (how? with Power To Me/Us, via removing it from Them) it's an
icky spiral.

--Amanda





From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 21 20:47:10 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:47:10 -0000
Subject: Ha-li-Bo-te (Harry Potter in Chinese)
In-Reply-To: <006401c023cc$84ee8aa0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qds4e+pp6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1852

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Here's the story link:
> 
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2569961553-5bc


This CNN link has the same story text, but adds a couple of photos.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/21/china.peddling.potter.ap/inde
x.html

(be sure to copy & past the entire URL, it looks like it may wrap 
lines....wait a minute.  What if I uncheck the wrap words box on the 
egroups post page? We'll see....

-Brooks




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 21 20:49:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:49:53 -0000
Subject: slytherin/evil dichotomy
Message-ID: <8qds9h+u18v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1853

Kelly wrote
> That's true, not all people who were in the house Slyth 
> became dark.  Interesting.  There is one point, I think in SS, that 
> Hagrid says that there were no wizards that went dark that 
~weren't~ 
> in Slyth, so I took this to mean that no one from the other houses 
> followed Vold, but then wouldn't this mean that Pettigrew must have 
> been in Slyth?  Maybe Pettigrew and the rest of the Marauders were 
in 
> Slyth when they were at HW.  And Lily was in Gryff (because she was 
> descended from Gryff-- AAAAH! Here I go...!).

Well, he said this when everyone thought Pettigrew was dead - if he 
was really meant "every" and wasn't exagerating for effect, then he 
meant Sirius Black, who, to be honest, is way too cool (or do I mean 
hot, in some people's estimation?) to be a Slytherin.

And given what sirius says about snape in Book IV (to paraphrase, 
something like Slimy Slytherin WHo Came To School Knowing More Dark 
Arts Than Advanced 7th Years), can you really believe that JKR has 
the two of them as dorm-mates/house-mates?

I'm sure JKR will prove me wrong & put all the marauders in 
Slytherin, but I think Hagrid was exagerating when he said all the 
dark wizards were slytherins




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:08:53 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:08:53 -0000
Subject: Department 56
In-Reply-To: <39C9ABEC.B2DC4A34@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8qdtd5+patt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1854

Brooks wrote-
> I think I am going to have to get at least Hermione on the stack of
> books - I'm in love with the picture.

Excuse me but did you say Picture!?!?!  If so where is a link?  I 
love Dept. 56 and can't wait to buy the pieces but in the latest 
catalogue there was no pictures and so I'm a bit confused.

Please Help.

Scott





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:08:02 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:08:02 -0400
Subject: OT/Witches/Onions
Message-ID: <004001c02410$0d7dd180$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1855

I ran across this site in a club, and started cracking up laughing.  I highly recommend this!  LOL!

http://www.geocities.com/ravengil2/babywitch.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 21 21:12:41 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:12:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Department 56
References: <8qdtd5+patt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CA79C9.B09A684A@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1856

Hi --

Scott wrote:

> Brooks wrote-
> > I think I am going to have to get at least Hermione on the stack of
> > books - I'm in love with the picture.
>
> Excuse me but did you say Picture!?!?!  If so where is a link?  I
> love Dept. 56 and can't wait to buy the pieces but in the latest
> catalogue there was no pictures and so I'm a bit confused.

My local Hallmark store had a copy of a brochure (slick purple paper)
from Dept 56 that showed pictures of the 6 figurines they'll be
distributing this fall.  There are as yet no brochures relating to the
other Dept 56 items to come in Jan 2001 (lighted houses??!!).  Anyway .
. . . I haven't found anything online myself, and my store only had the
one copy of this brochure (so naturally they were reluctant for me to
leave with it).  You might check your local Hallmark (or other store
that carries the Dept 56 merchandise that is) -- they should have at
least one brochure.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 21:17:45 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (hilary_tamar at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:17:45 -0000
Subject: beware the little guys
In-Reply-To: <8qdlc6+3qg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qdttp+e9bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1857

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
> I have always said that the most dangerous persons to Harry aren't 
> Malfoy and his cronies, it's Colin and Dennis. 

I can see someone from the Dark Side working on them by either 1) 
getting them to resent Harry for brushing them off all the time, or 
2) dangling "you can be as famous as Harry" in front of them or 3) 
enticing them with "if you do this, he'll be sure to notice you."

Nothing against the Creavy boys, but boy howdy! turning them into 
agents of Voldy would be wicked kewl.
 
> And the most potential for good? The house elves. ... it will be 
>kind of like the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi. 

Hopefully with less egregious cuteness! <g>


ht






From lrcjestes at msn.com  Thu Sep 21 21:09:32 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:09:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] cool book from Scholastic
References: <8qdnv6+snk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c02410$4464b060$dc6a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1858

> My son just came home with a very cool book he ordered from the
> Scholastic Book Order. It's called Harry Potter Coloring Fun Book and
> it has some VERY nice artwork in it. The one of Snape glaring over
> Harry's shoulder in Potions is wonderful. You can only get this
> through the school orders, so if you don't have kids, you might have
> to call Scholastic and whine a little. I plan to order one of these
> for myself, since my son didn't take to the idea of not coloring in
> his.
>
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>

Oooooo good to hear that its good...I just ordered it for my 7yo

carole






From vjmerri at iquest.net  Thu Sep 21 21:30:59 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:30:59 -0000
Subject: WB
In-Reply-To: <39C5AFBB.912867E3@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8qdumj+otqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1859

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
wrote:
> Went by the WB store again Sunday....

The X-mas ornaments are out.  I didn't like Harry's expression in 
either the ornament or the the coffee mugs.  He appears to be showing 
his front teeth too much, as though HE had the large teeth instead of 
Hermione.  Bought them anyway.

The second ornament was Hedwig with jeweled collar carrying a large 
envelope addressed to H. Potter, Cupboard under the stairs, etc. with 
a seal that says H (for Hogwarts no doubt.)  Guess they didn't want 
to try to duplicate the real seal in miniature, although I wish they 
had.  She was $8, Harry as ornament is $10.  The mugs are $8 each.

At this point I now own the pen set, the book cover set, both coffee 
mugs and both X-mas ornaments.  I tried to resist but decided that if 
I didn't buy them now, I would probably wind up buying them later, 
especially ornaments if they are like Hallmarks and only come out one 
year.  I also asked about the snitch keychain, but they were still 
out.  *sigh*  WB must be making money like they were the US Mint.  
JKR better be getting a decent royalty on all of this stuff. 

Vicki






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:37:16 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:37:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: setting the cat down
References: <8qdkq7+ivmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013701c02414$234f0160$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1860

(Did I post/send this yesterday, or was that when my son started acting up?  If it's a repeat, forgive me!)



In a IM to Penny, I mentioned this idea.  Perhaps the only reason AD keeps Professor T around is because they are having a relationship!   I mean, come on, now, isn't she just a bit too wacky for a teacher?  Snape could properly teach the course saner.

Just a thought!
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kelley 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 2:42 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: setting the cat down



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
  wrote:
  > I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy 
  buddies who care for each other very much (face it, it's another 
  reason for Dumbeldore to put up with Sanpe's atrotios - opps, can't 
  spell, very bad behaviour. It was this love that brought Snape back 
  from the Death Eaters in the first place, love redemed his soul.
  > 
  > Right, I can stop now :-)
  > 
  > btw what is IIRC? usually I'm pretty quick but that has me stumped!
  > 
  > storm

  Storm--

  IIRC-- If I Remember/Recall Correctly

  Kelley


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 21 21:46:58 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:46:58 -0500
Subject: Chapter 11 Discussion this Week??  Anna?
Message-ID: <39CA81D1.8ADBB016@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1861

Hi --

Skimmel just asked me when his chapter discussion was scheduled & I
suddenly realized that we have had no chapter & character discussions
this week.  Anna, you're on the schedule for this week.

Just a reminder of upcoming weeks --

    Next week (25 Sept) -- Ch 12 & the Dursleys --- Dennis & Diann
    Oct 2 - 8   --- Ch 13 & Cornelius Fudge -- Skimmel
    Oct 9 - 15 -- Ch 14 & House Elves -- Trina
    Oct 16 - 23 -- Ch 15 & Cedric/Cho -- Scott

I'll try not to let reminders slip until Thursday too!

Penny




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:44:36 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:44:36 -0400
Subject: Don't color!
References: <8qdnv6+snk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <016901c02415$238c8a20$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1862

How about this idea?  I used to take my coloring books to Kinkos to make "colorable" copies.  Hope this helps?      

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Vander Ark 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 3:36 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] cool book from Scholastic



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  My son just came home with a very cool book he ordered from the 
  Scholastic Book Order. It's called Harry Potter Coloring Fun Book and 
  it has some VERY nice artwork in it. The one of Snape glaring over 
  Harry's shoulder in Potions is wonderful. You can only get this 
  through the school orders, so if you don't have kids, you might have 
  to call Scholastic and whine a little. I plan to order one of these 
  for myself, since my son didn't take to the idea of not coloring in 
  his. 

  Steve Vander Ark
  The Harry Potter Lexicon
  http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 21:51:35 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:51:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil--Pettigrew's house
References: <8qdqru+v5rr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018701c02416$1d1575c0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1863

Ok, here's a thought on this.  Hagrid didn't know that Scabbers was Peter, that he was still alive, and that HE was the one who betrayed the Potters--everyone thought (and still does, except our Trio, and AD) that Sirius did it!  (Except Peter, of course)


  I think in SS, that 
  Hagrid says that there were no wizards that went dark that ~weren't~ 
  in Slyth, so I took this to mean that no one from the other houses 
  followed Vold, but then wouldn't this mean that Pettigrew must have 
  been in Slyth?  Maybe Pettigrew and the rest of the Marauders were in 
  Slyth when they were at HW.  And Lily was in Gryff (because she was 
  descended from Gryff-- AAAAH! Here I go...!).





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Sep 21 21:58:20 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:58:20 -0000
Subject: Don't color!
In-Reply-To: <016901c02415$238c8a20$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qe09s+3t1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1864

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> How about this idea?  I used to take my coloring books to Kinkos to 
make "colorable" copies.  Hope this helps

Yeah, except that I'm a school library media specialist and a 
freelance writer, which means I'm a fanatic about copyright and all 
that. I don't copy anything unless I'm sure it's okay, and I get all 
cranky when my staff just copies things willy-nilly. 

I'm kind of like Madam Pince, I guess...

*sigh*


Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon







From jillfigueroa at home.com  Thu Sep 21 22:13:01 2000
From: jillfigueroa at home.com (jillfigueroa at home.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:13:01 -0000
Subject: #5
Message-ID: <8qe15d+6qqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1865

Does anyone know when we can start advance ordering HP#5?




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 22:09:16 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:09:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't color!  Steve, please?
References: <8qe09s+3t1j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01df01c02418$956ae6c0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1866

Steve, 
even when you are only making one or two copies to preserve the original creation, to color on them, which is what the artist had in mind when they made the book?

Thanks for the answer.
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Vander Ark 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 5:58 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't color!



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
  > How about this idea?  I used to take my coloring books to Kinkos to 
  make "colorable" copies.  Hope this helps

  Yeah, except that I'm a school library media specialist and a 
  freelance writer, which means I'm a fanatic about copyright and all 
  that. I don't copy anything unless I'm sure it's okay, and I get all 
  cranky when my staff just copies 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 22:18:54 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:18:54 -0500
Subject: Anagrams for fun
Message-ID: <39CA894D.E29A848A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1867

In trying to weed the myriad bookmarks I've accumulated, I came across
an anagram site. It reminded me that Voldemort's name had been made this
way, and for grinsies I submitted some names from the HP books. The free
service gives you 200, and most of them are nonsense, but I weeded out
some that might be amusing.

--Amanda

"Tom Marvolo Riddle"

Immortal, odd lover.
Mad or droll motive.
Voted immoral lord.
Loved mid moral rot.
Am droll vomit doer.
I'm mad lover to lord.
Voted, I'm moral lord.

"Albus Dumbledore"

Measured, old bulb.
Mad blue boulders.
Blame rude, bold us.
Mad, rude blue slob.
Bored amused bull.
Rub double damsel. (!)
Bomb sure alluded.
Abused rolled bum.
A bulbous meddler.
Re-use oddball bum.
Modular blue beds.

"Harry Potter"

Part try hero.
Try pro earth.
Try pro heart.
Thy pat error.
Rotary Perth.
Err tory path.
Trophy rater.
Try rapt hero.
O! try her part.





From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 21 22:26:17 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:26:17 -0000
Subject: Department 56
In-Reply-To: <39CA79C9.B09A684A@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qe1u9+1vjq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1868

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Scott wrote:
> 
> > Brooks wrote-
> > > I think I am going to have to get at least Hermione on the
stack 
of
> > > books - I'm in love with the picture.
> >
> > Excuse me but did you say Picture!?!?!  If so where is a link?  I
> > love Dept. 56 and can't wait to buy the pieces but in the latest
> > catalogue there was no pictures and so I'm a bit confused.
> 
> My local Hallmark store had a copy of a brochure (slick purple 
paper)
> from Dept 56 that showed pictures of the 6 figurines they'll be
> distributing this fall.   (snip)

> . . . I haven't found anything online myself, and my store only had 
the
> one copy of this brochure (so naturally they were reluctant for me 
to
> leave with it). 


Sounds like exactly what I saw.  For the one big item, with three 
figures and a background, they had covered over the price and just
had 
a note about taking advance reserve orders.  And indeed they had only 
the one copy which was in a Lucite display thing on the counter.

I have no idea if the store I go to to see this is a national chain
or 
not; it is called Graham's Crackers.  Half of it is full of Christmas 
decorations of various quality and expense, 1/6 or so of it is the 
Department 56 houses; and various other seasonal and decorative stuff 
fills the rest. 

My nearest-to-work Hallmark store (which is also a bookstore of 
the Bookland chain) still has the gap in the middle of the ornament 
display which looks like the HP stuff may go there.  I have a feeling 
I am going to be buying an unusually large number of ornaments this 
year, because the Seven of Nine and Maleficent ornaments look so
cool, 
as well as GI Joe in the Spacesuit, and a few more.....

-Brooks




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 21 22:33:55 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:33:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't color!  Steve, please?
References: <8qe09s+3t1j@eGroups.com> <01df01c02418$956ae6c0$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39CA8CD3.8E507892@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1869

Denise wrote:

>
> even when you are only making one or two copies to preserve the original creation, to color on them, which is what the artist had in mind when they made the book?

Usually stuff that may be copied for further uses is clearly marked as such, someplace. Like books of clip-art that schools use and stuff like that. Copyright is
inherent---unless the waiver in stated, in writing, it should be assumed the work is copyrighted.

--Amanda




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Sep 21 23:00:01 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:00:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't color!
In-Reply-To: <8qe09s+3t1j@eGroups.com>
References: <016901c02415$238c8a20$39dc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000921155751.00d226c0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1870

At 09:58 PM 9/21/00 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote:
>Yeah, except that I'm a school library media specialist and a
>freelance writer, which means I'm a fanatic about copyright and all
>that. I don't copy anything unless I'm sure it's okay, and I get all
>cranky when my staff just copies things willy-nilly.

Then I won't ask you how you feel on the MP3 issue...  :)

                   -- Dave, who is guilty of the heinous crime of recording 
his CD's
                         to cassette so he can listen to them in his car's 
tape player  :)





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Sep 21 23:38:03 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:38:03 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <8qddlp+35ho@eGroups.com>
References: <39CA1F3F.88220E02@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000921163704.028c5680@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1871

At 04:40 PM 9/21/00 +0000, milz wrote:
>As for Salazar Slytherin, he split from the group over disagreements
>with Muggle-borns being admitted to Hogwarts. I don't think you can
>call that "evil" per se...

But he *did* put the killer Basillisk in the Chamber of Secrets --
*That* was evil!



                                                 -- Dave




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 21 23:37:32 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:37:32 -0000
Subject: in the meantime
In-Reply-To: <8qd6gk+j6v7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qe63s+520m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1872

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "heidi tandy" <
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> Bedina wrote
> > >I have particularly enjoyed fiction by Cassandra Claire and 
> > by Blaise on the fanfiction.net.  Search for those author 
> > names.  Other people have recommended Hyphen and Wolfie Twins >
> > 
> > Hmmmm, don't these authors primarily write early stuff 
> > (James, Lily, Remus, etc)? That's great, but what about good 
> > stories about Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Harry Potter and the 
> > Doomspell Tournament is a very good alternate of book IV 
> > http://home.att.net/~sognirjari/), but it would be nice to 
> > have
> > other rec's for good HP & friends stories.  
> > 
> 
> Cassandra's two stories (Draco Dormiens (finished) and Draco
Sinister 
> (only up to ch. 2 so far) are both about HP & Co. in and after
their 
> 6th year.

Hi Heidi! Thanks for the mention of DD and DS. I just wanted to say 
that my favorite author on ff.net, Morrigan, has written some great 
stories about Harry, Ron, Hermione and co. OK, you may already all 
have read her stuff, but if not, do...it's great and done with a nice 
light touch.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 22 00:28:17 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:28:17 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000921163704.028c5680@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8qe931+a83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1873

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...>
se...
> 
> But he *did* put the killer Basillisk in the Chamber of Secrets --
> *That* was evil!
	The basilisk can't have been that big when he put it in there, and 
there's been some speculation that it can't originally have had
access to the school (because the bathroom must be modern).  Maybe the
chamber was originally built as a sort of initiation rite for 
Slytherins and  its true purpose was forgotten and the legend of the 
monster took its place. Then Riddle believed the legend and set about 
making it come true.
Pippin
	(Who has a hard time believing that Dumble would continue to use 
the sorting hat if he thought Salazar Slytherin had been a dark wizard 
at the time the hat was created.)





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 22 01:04:44 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 02:04:44 +0100
Subject: Patnerships
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEJOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1874

Penny wrote: "> I am only convinced at this outcome if it occurs as it does
in PoU. By this I mean that for Harry and Hermione to happen then Ron will
die first. Are the poll results in for this question (was it here or on PoU
that the question was asked?)?

It was asked on PoU -- only about 11% of the members have voted but maybe
that's the final outcome.  Low voter turnout.  The results thus far are 47%
favor H/H no matter what, 30% favor H/H as long as Ron is dead and 9% still
favor R/H."

There are two polls open there at the moment and the other has 43% for R/H
and 25% H/H (no conditions used in this poll).

These statistics will be skewed, since people can vote in both, but I would
guess if combined would give about equal for H/H and R/H.

Of course you decided to leave off my option, so I decided to vote H/Cho.

Simon




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 22 01:21:48 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:21:48 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <8qdqru+v5rr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qec7c+57br@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1875

> but then wouldn't this mean that Pettigrew must have 
> been in Slyth?  

Not necessarily, as we are only getting this information from Hagrid, 
who is not aware that Pettigrew was a spy. However the hole in that 
theory is that Hagrid thought Sirius Black was a dark wizard, which 
implies that Sirius was a Slytherin. Hmmm...

> Maybe Pettigrew and the rest of the Marauders were in 
> Slyth when they were at HW.

Despite what I just said it seems extremely unlikely that Sirius, 
James, Lupin, etc, were all in Slytherin. Wouldn't that make them 
friends with Snape and not enemies? I always got the impression that 
James was in Gryff (because of the whole familes/house thing, eg the 
Weasleys, altho in GoF there IS evidence to the contrary), and that 
therefore the rest of the Marauders were Gryffs too, simply because 
we haven't really hear much about interhouse friendships in Hogwarts. 





From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 22 01:58:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:58:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEJOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <39CABCC9.2777C5FB@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1876

Hi --

Simon Branford wrote:

> Simon originally wrote: "> I am only convinced at this outcome if it
> occurs as it does in PoU. By this I mean that for Harry and Hermione
> to happen then Ron will die first. Are the poll results in for this
> question (was it here or on PoU that the question was asked?)?
>
> Penny wrote: "It was asked on PoU -- only about 11% of the members
> have voted but maybe that's the final outcome.  Low voter turnout.
> The results thus far are 47% favor H/H no matter what, 30% favor H/H
> as long as Ron is dead and 9% still favor R/H."
>
> Simon then said: There are two polls open there at the moment and the
> other has 43% for R/H and 25% H/H (no conditions used in this poll).

The first poll asks what pairing people favored *prior* to reading PoU.
This is the one where 43% said R/H.  *I* voted for R/H in that poll for
example.  <g>  Prior to PoU, I was ambivalent about romantic pairings at
best and mildly thinking that Ron sure had the beginnings of a crush on
Hermione.

The second poll queries what pairing people favor *after* they've read
PoU.  This is the one that I quoted last night since Simon originally
seemed to be saying that he thinks H/H is only plausible in the PoU
context (and only if Ron was dead).  I think that's what he was saying
anyway.  I feel certain he'll step in & correct me if I'm wrong.

The purpose of the polls was really to get a general idea how many
people were converted by PoU.  It seems that PoU converted a high
percentage of the poll respondents.  My guess is that people who remain
convinced that H/H is "wrong" in all circumstances haven't responded to
the poll.

> Of course you decided to leave off my option, so I decided to vote
> H/Cho.

Silly me!  It just seemed that those favoring the alternative H/H
pairing that Simon proposes might be a rather statistically small
sampling of PoU readers.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep 22 03:26:51 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 03:26:51 -0000
Subject: Don't color!
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000921155751.00d226c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8qejhr+qbl4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1877

>cranky when my staff just copies things willy-nilly.
> 
> Then I won't ask you how you feel on the MP3 issue...  :)
> 
>                    -- Dave, who is guilty of the heinous crime of 
recording 
> his CD's
>                          to cassette so he can listen to them in 
his car's 
> tape player  :)

Yeah, I've done that too. But only with CDs I actually own, never 
with ones, say, from the library or borrowed from friends. I like to 
find those comfortable gray areas.

But let's just kind of let this topic drop. This whole copyright 
thing gets people upset. And none of you are on my staff and 
therefore my responsibility, therefore I don't give a hoot what you 
do with your CDs. It's not for me to impose my black, white, and gray 
areas on anyone else.

That said, I would care if you cut and pasted things from my website, 
the Harry Potter Lexicon, maybe the timeline, for example, and posted 
it here or added it to your own website or whatever. That's what I 
mean about getting cranky. If you take an article I've written for a 
magazine and make copies, that bothers me. So maybe I should be 
consistent and protect EVERYONE'S creative output. 

Oh well. Maybe I'll just go to bed... :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 22 03:40:48 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:40:48 -0500
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
Message-ID: <39CAD4BF.98B8B466@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1878

I'll bet you all think I'm going to talk about Dudley, aren't you?

Well, true, but I have a few other points to make besides the obvious.

Someone else on the list this week mentioned their discomfort with the
fact that JK Rowling seemed to be setting up Dudley as someone to
despise because he is overweight (Snape's stereotypical Semite features
were mentioned, too, i.e., hooked nose, etc.)

This has crossed my mind, too, and has made me uneasy, too.  That's why
I was particularly careful in my last 7 deadly sin message (on envy) to
describe Dudley not as overweight, but as a glutton.  One
description--overweight--is, I hope, a neutral description (although our
culture tries to load it up with all sorts of moralistic baggage).  But
Dudley is more than overweight; he is a glutton, and as such, is
depicted as a contemptible character.

His gluttony leads him to sloth (hey, coming up!  Sin No. 7!) and
selfishness, almost a kind of solipsism.  Dudley basically believes that
the world revolves around him and his appetites, to the extent that
nothing MATTERS to him unless it has to do with getting his needs met.
Remember when Vernon took the family and fled at the beginning of the
first book when the letter(s) from Hogwarts started arriving?  It didn't
occur to Dudley to wonder much about this strange adventure the family
was embarking upon--he couldn't think past the fact that he was hungry
and had missed five of his favorite TV shows.

Note how Dudley's gluttony has totally skewed the relationships in his
family.  Dudley's parents totally indulge him, and in doing so, they
abdicate their parental roles.  Vernon's attitude is fondly indulgent
("Little tyke!") which leads him down the slippery slope of overlooking
his son's other faults, i.e., his sadistic bullying.  Petunia caters
slavishly to Dudley's every whim.  Indulging Dudley's gluttony
eventually leads to Vernon and Petunia loss of their grip on reality.
They can't SEE the extra pounds, just as they can't see that their son
isn't applying himself in school, and his terrible social relationships.

And Harry?  Well, to him, Dudley is a warning.  In my post about envy I
mentioned that Harry might have started out envying Dudley, but Dudley
has made such a monster of himself that the idea of indulging one's
appetites eventually comes to seem quite unappealing to Harry.  (Which
is good, as it may close off one avenue of temptation that Voldemort
might have tried to use to seduce him: "Want to indulge your appetites
Harry?  Want money?  Power?  All the coke you can stuff up your nose?"
"No thanks.  I saw what that sort of thing did for my cousin.  Yuck.")

Once I started thinking about gluttony this way, I found that Dudley has
several spiritual "twins," if you will, characters with a ravenous
capacity, who suffer all the attendant troubles (selfishness, skewed
relationships, inability to recognize that they're not the center of the
world).

The first, of course, is Voldemort.

The second I didn't see right away, but once I did, I realized he fits
the profile, too.  The other great glutton in the series is Gilderoy
Lockhart.

What Voldemort wants to devour is power.  This, obviously, has given him
a rather inflated view of his self worth, has skewed his relationships,
and made him distressingly selfish.

The type of gluttony he indulges him makes him, of course, particularly
dangerous, for where do you get power from?  You get it from other
people, specifically, by bullying and browbeating your underlings
(Imperius), by causing pain (Crucio), and by killing (Avada Kedavra).

What Lockhart craves is adulation.  Again, note how his sense of reality
is warped (he twists everything fit his world view that he is
universally admired, and that everyone wants to become close to him and
imitate him.)  The proper balance in relationships is disrupted:
Gilderoy is so hypnotized by his faux-celebrity that he cannot properly
teach.  He does not do as a proper teacher should and focus his
attention on the student; instead, he continually tries to yank
attention to himself.  Again, the results are disastrous: starting from
the point where Lockhart releases the pixies until the point where he
tries to turn Ron's wand on Harry and Ron, Lockhart blows it again and
again.

Now, if the series is about Harry's moral education, what does it have
to say about how to deal with a glutton?

Harry actually does quite well.  He learned what to do and what NOT to
do by observing the Dursleys.  And it's this: Don't feed a glutton.
Just don't.  If you do, they want more.  And so Harry does all he can to
keep from feeding Lockhart's ego.  He avoids him, he protests that he
didn't intend to get a photograph of Lockhart, ask for his autograph,
etc.  (Too bad Lockhart is unable to hear what Harry is trying to tell
him.)

More importantly, he does all he can to keep Voldemort from feeding on
power.  Harry resists the Imperius curse; he dodges the Crucio curse.
He comes back to Hogwarts, determined to help Dumbledore and the rest,
to stop the rise of the Dark Lord and his Deatheaters.

What is Rowling doing with this theme of gluttony?  The counter for
gluttony (which is/leads to selfishness), is selflessness.  Harry has
one egregiously self-indulgent episode of gluttony in the series.  He
broke the rules and left Hogwarts in order to sneak into Honeydukes to
buy sweets.  Remember how it ended?  Lupin saved him from Snape--and
then scolded him for it, asking him whether he thinks that Lily's
self-sacrifice for him should be jeopardized for such a selfish reason.

It was the selfless love of his mother, giving her life for him, that
has set Harry upon his present path, and that, perhaps, is the best
inoculation against gluttony that he could have, once Lupin pointed it
out to him. Harry seems to have learned that lesson well.  Unlike
Voldemort, who acts selfishly, Harry acts with a selfless concern for
others (i.e., helping Cedric with the first task, trying to rescue other
hostages with the second task, sharing the cup with Cedric on the third
task--and then bringing his body back).

This is spinning out of control, so I'll stop here.  Comments?  Other
characters you'd like to discuss re: gluttony?

Peg




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 22 04:53:17 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 04:53:17 -0000
Subject: OT: Garment Shop
In-Reply-To: <39C9491B.E1801257@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qeojt+u6i9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1879

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> I live in Austria, and there is a particular store that sells
>  traditional 'folk' clothing from the region. This stuff is amazing,
>  and some of it looks like it came right out of a HP book! They have
>  these amazing capes and cloaks..
> 
> For people in the U.S., I just bought a cloak that pleased me very 
much from these people:
> 
> http://www.hmoon.com/
> 
> Expensive, but worth it, I think.  I got it at a local Renaissance 
Festival, but as you can see, you can order over the Internet.  The 
one I got was the Rectangular Yoke Cloak.
> 
> Peg

Peg--

I went to this site, and Wow!  The cloak you have is gorgeous!  What 
color is it in?  I'd love to get one, if I had $350, and if I lived 
somewhere that winter lasted longer than 5 minutes.  (I live in San 
Antonio.)  Oh, were that these were common winter wear.  Was there a 
site posted for the Austrian shop?  I'd love to see their merchandise 
as well.

Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 22 06:59:55 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:59:55 -0000
Subject: JKR answers our questions....
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOCEIICCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qf01b+6crl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1880

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> Someone must be monitoring fan discussions and passing on some of 
the major concerns to Ms. Rowling.  She specifically answered several 
minor points of dispute or curiosity.  Two instances that spring to 
mind: 
> 1.  The pronunciation of Hermione's name -- taken care of in Goblet 
of Fire
> 2.  Harry's stinginess/generosity in the matter of gifts -- also
> specifically shown in GoF when Harry's gifts to Ron and Hermione 
were
> featured.
> (I don't consider Harry's handing-over of the thousand Galleons to 
Fred & George as an act of generosity.  It was really a good solution 
for what to do with the prize money he didn't want and didn't feel he 
deserved.} 
> I think that if JKR is aware of these points, she'll find a way to 
work in the answers to other questions we have, as long as the 
answers don't interfere with the natural flow of her pre-planned 
story lines for Books 5, 6, and 7.

Yes, either someone is monitoring websites, or JKR has some 
assistants reading her fan mail.  Some physical descriptions of 
characters was something else fans were asking for.  I'm very hopeful 
that your last paragraph is what the case will be.  Or, at least if 
she will answer our questions in ~some~ way.

 Kelley






From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 22 07:27:02 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:27:02 -0000
Subject: Harry in Chinese?
Message-ID: <8qf1k6+9isa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1881

Can anyone tell me where I can buy a Harry Potter book translated in 
Chinese? Is there a web site or something with the "Amazon.com"
style? 
Help! I want to buy the first book for a friend of mine who comes
from 
Taiwan. Thanks to anyone who can help!
Helena




From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 22 07:40:02 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:40:02 -0000
Subject: Harry and Hermione and Garment Shops (Cloaks)
Message-ID: <8qf2ci+qque@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1882

Thank you to Carol, Penny, Simon, Neil, Firebolt, Sam and everyone 
else who wrote a response to my queries about the pairing. That's
what 
I love about this group...the healthy and intelligent discussions.
Although I still vote H&H (even after GOF), the Hedgwig and Harry 
thing got me thinking. How imaginative! Hedgwig as the animagus, of 
course!
 
Peg, that web site is simply amazing! I am definitely going to place 
an order for a cloak after the next paycheck. Your Rectangular Yoke 
Cloak...is that 2 pieces or one? It looks like 2, but I wasn't sure 
whether you had to order the dress underneath separate.

About the garment shop here in Austria...I don't think they have a 
website, but I will go in and ask...it really is a little hole in the 
wall-called Rollet. After seeing Peg's website, though, I am 
personally going with that one.

Helena




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 22 10:30:37 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 05:30:37 -0500
Subject: Tapes/copyright (semi-OT)
References: <969608410.1450@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CB34D1.8D816906@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1883

> 
>... guilty of the heinous crime of recording 
> his CD's  to cassette so he can listen to them in his car's 
> tape player  :)

Actually that sort of thing was explicitly allowed by the copyright law;
which is one reason that one of the music servers thought they could put
the disks online and allow someone who proves they own the disk to
listen to it.  And SvA's answer was strictly to the law, IIRC, on
library tapes. 
 
Moreover, there is also a 'fair use' provision in the law, to cover a
researcher making a copy of a paper or article out of a research journal
for example - one personal copy for fair use.  Thus while I suspect that
while the coloring book people would prefer you bought two copies, you
can clearly legally make a single photocopy of a page, to color.  

But best ask a real copyright attorney, or  at least check some of the
websites that offer copyright law guidance.

That's also the point of my posting URL's instead of article text - that
clearly avoids an internet copyright problem.

-Brooks



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 22 11:20:30 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:20:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Garment Shop
References: <8qeojt+u6i9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CB407E.3072AA32@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1884



Kelley wrote:

> > For people in the U.S., I just bought a cloak that pleased me very
> much from these people:
> >
> > http://www.hmoon.com/
> >
> > Expensive, but worth it, I think.  I got it at a local Renaissance
> Festival, but as you can see, you can order over the Internet.  The
> one I got was the Rectangular Yoke Cloak.
> >
> > Peg
>
> Peg--
>
> I went to this site, and Wow!  The cloak you have is gorgeous!  What
> color is it in?  I'd love to get one, if I had $350, and if I lived
> somewhere that winter lasted longer than 5 minutes.  (I live in San
> Antonio.)  Oh, were that these were common winter wear.  Was there a
> site posted for the Austrian shop?  I'd love to see their merchandise
> as well.
>
> Kelley

Well, yes, it was horribly expensive, and I was rather appalled at myself
for doing it.  But I saw the cloak at the Renaissance Festival and thought
about it, hard, for a month.  One of the things I liked about it is that it
isn't lined with acetate, which in my experience, just rips out of coats.
I've had to replace my last three winter coats because the lining ripped out
(we wear our winter coats HARD in Minnesota).  I figured if I am replacing a
$100 - $150 coat every two to three winters, I could get something for
$350.00 that might last ten to fifteen years.  Finally, one night I had a
dream about it, and that decided me.  If I was dreaming about it, I had to
have it.

So I went back to get it.  They have the cloaks in all sorts of colors (see
the website), but I got mine in black.  I absolutely feel like a wizard when
I wear it.  It's extremely heavy, and so voluminous that  I can wrap it
around both my kids when we're waiting for the bus together.

No dry cleaning--you want to preserve the lanolin in the wool.  If something
gets on it, you just blast it with a garden hose and then let it dry.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 22 11:32:14 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:32:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Hermione and Garment Shops (Cloaks)
References: <8qf2ci+qque@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CB433D.F8919A24@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1885



hgiammarco at hotmail.com wrote:

>
> Peg, that web site is simply amazing! I am definitely going to place
> an order for a cloak after the next paycheck. Your Rectangular Yoke
> Cloak...is that 2 pieces or one? It looks like 2, but I wasn't sure
> whether you had to order the dress underneath separate.
>

Helena.  The Traveler's yoke cloak is sewn together.  It's a heavy cloak,
with arm slits, with a separate piece of material, a yoke, which is sewn to
the main cloak.  So the yoke protects your arms when they're outside the
armslits.  The pockets are nicely deep.  It has one button, and I worried
about that.  Would it be warm enough, although it was so heavy--wouldn't
wind creep underneath if it was closed only with one button?  (Our winds are
brutal here in January).  The vendor answered my questions to my
satisfaction. They had tried designing it with two buttons, but decided that
pulled at the wool too much, and so went back to one.  It is so heavy that
the wind can't stir it much, and if you put your hands in the pockets and
sort of cross your hands in front of yourself, that helps holds the cloak
closed. The vendor told me he has a friend who wears hers in Minnesota in
the worst weather in January and finds it warm enough.

Another thing I worried about was whether it could be worn while driving,
wearing a shoulder lap belt.  I talked with the vendor about that, too.
Apparently, it just takes a bit of practice--you just ruck it up a little in
back and accordion it in front, so that you have enough freedom of
movement--I found that the arms, put through the arm slits, have enough
freedom of movement--and then you simply lift the yoke up over the belt over
your lap so that it doesn't constrain you.

The traveller's cloak, which I didn't get, is actually two separate pieces
which you can wear separately or together. I was intrigued by that one,
too.  More expensive.  See the pictures at the website.

The people who were selling the cloaks were very nice and willingly answered
all my questions.  If you buy one, let me know how you like it!

Peg




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 11:59:47 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:59:47 -0400
Subject: Arthur and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <000c01c0248c$9cb4f460$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1886

Watching the television this morning with my son, I enjoyed seeing (a repeat) an episode of Arthur that reminded me of Harry Potter.  The children were enthused about reading, something that many of the parents found amazing (again, like HP!).  A few parents got together, though, and created an Anti-"Scare Your Pants off book" group called PAWS (Parents against Weird Stories), and had the books banned from the library.  The episode went on to explain why the books were a good thing, and the lead parent in the group hadn't even read the series, so the author, who was revealed, read him one of the book.  The basic "moral" of the show was don't condemn something you haven't read.  I wonder if we could make this show required reading for the HP banners?

Just a thought.

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 22 13:12:04 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:12:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qec7c+57br@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000922141204.15DE.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1887

On 22.09.2000 at 01:21:48 Sam  Brown wrote:

>Not necessarily, as we are only getting this information from
>Hagrid, 
>who is not aware that Pettigrew was a spy. However the hole in that 
>theory is that Hagrid thought Sirius Black was a dark wizard, which 
>implies that Sirius was a Slytherin. Hmmm...

Hagrid is a simple soul who sees the world in black and white. He got
expelled because a Slytherin framed him. Present day Slytherins (at
least Malfoy and his set) look down on him as a servant and don't
respect him as a teacher. He has no reason to like or trust the
Slytherins, and I'm sure his distrust is as absolute as his trust.
That doesn't make him a very reliable source on the origin of dark
wizards.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 13:05:14 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:05:14 -0400
Subject: Seminar to focus on HP
Message-ID: <012101c02495$c2129a60$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1888

http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2569988191-a4e


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Fri Sep 22 13:34:07 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:34:07 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000921131514.F53.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8qfn4f+77jo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1889

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
> 
> Hallo all,
> 
> I joined the list a short while ago and I very much enjoy reading
> your insights. 
> 
> As for the Polyjuice Potion theory, there's another point that
> doesn't fit the picture. Even if there was a strong enough reason to
> keep the heirs of Gryffindor alive (assuming that James and Harry 
are
> his descendants) to make James trade places and appearance with his
> wife and put her up as Voldemorts prime target, did he really have
> reason to think Voldemort would let Lily live, given his hatred of
> muggle-born wizards?
> 
> Greetings
> Christina


Christina,
   Your right that it doesn't make much sense for James and Lilly to 
swith places.  But in post 1530 (I think) I proposed a scanario where 
James and Harry switched.  I admit it has holes and I'm not exactly a 
big proponent of it but I do think it explains things as well as 
anything that's been thought up so far.  Although the idea that Snape 
killed James with Voldy's wand after the attempt to kill Harry makes 
a certain amount of sense too.
                                        Brian




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 22 13:49:38 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:49:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEJOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39CABCC9.2777C5FB@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39CB6372.C8DC3382@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1890

Okay, I can't stand it. I can't figure this one out: "PoU"? It's not a book
title, at least not an American one. Is it a site?

--Amanda




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Sep 22 13:58:56 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 22 Sep 2000 06:58:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships
Message-ID: <20000922135856.6404.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1891

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000922/4a01ae3a/attachment.ksh>

From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 22 13:57:47 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:57:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
References: <39CAD4BF.98B8B466@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39CB655B.D84B511B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1892

Peg Kerr wrote:

> This is spinning out of control, so I'll stop here.  Comments?  Other
> characters you'd like to discuss re: gluttony?

Just one comment: you seem to have stated pretty well what I thought about
Dudley, and tried to say---that his size is not the focus, it's a by-product
of his character. The despicable thing about him is why/how he got that way,
not the simple fact that he *is* fat. I still think any little overweight
kids who read the book will understand that Dudley is awful because he's
Dudley, not because he's fat.

Oh, and anyone else think Val Kilmer would have been a great Lockhart? Alas,
he's not British.

--Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 13:54:48 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:54:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships Amanda
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEJOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <39CABCC9.2777C5FB@hic.net> <39CB6372.C8DC3382@texas.net>
Message-ID: <01d301c0249c$b76324c0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1893

PoU is a fanfic that is excellent!  Lori is writing the last chapter of it, and I believe that the link for the story is here:  (It's in the files section)  http://www.egroups.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

Hope this helps?

Great story.  It's set in the future, after Hogwarts is a bunch of memories for Harry and Hermione.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda Lewanski 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 9:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  Okay, I can't stand it. I can't figure this one out: "PoU"? It's not a book
  title, at least not an American one. Is it a site?

  --Amanda


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 22 13:59:35 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:59:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Garment Shop
References: <8qeojt+u6i9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CB65C7.679AB600@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1894

Oh, for Pete's sake, guys, find a seamstress, go pick a pattern, and buy the
material. That plus the labor, for a cloak, won't be anywhere near the
prices on this site. Cloaks aren't that complicated.

--Amanda




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 22 15:16:23 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:16:23 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <8qdqru+v5rr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qft47+tsgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1895

> > As for Salazar Slytherin, he split from the group over 
disagreements
> > with Muggle-borns being admitted to Hogwarts. I don't think you 
can 
> > call that "evil" per se, but definitely how his views were 
> > interpreted by V was evil.
>  
> So, do you think this disagreement with the other three is what 
made 
> Slyth turn evil?
> 
> Kelley--who's really enjoying all this discussion

I think Slytherin had definite goals for Hogwarts. We really don't 
know why he was against Muggle-borns, though V.'s interpretation 
leads us to believe it was a type of *racial* prejudice. Maybe 
Slytherin felt that Muggle-borns would *dumb-down* the curriculum 
because the classes would have to include the rudimentary of 
rudimentary elements. Harry, himself, was intimidated/apprehensive 
when he started Hogwarts because he was raised in a wizarding 
household and was "behind" some of his schoolmates.

Whatever the case, V. interpreted and used Slytherin's views to 
support and propel his own Anti-Muggle agenda. It's like how people 
manipulate religious scriptures and texts or philosophical treatises 
to support and legitimize their agendas. So until, we learn the 
*real* reason behind Slytherin's views, we really can't label him as 
*evil*. 


--Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 22 15:22:35 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:22:35 -0000
Subject: Tapes/copyright (semi-OT)
In-Reply-To: <39CB34D1.8D816906@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8qftfr+poe3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1896

In the United States, you can make copies for educational 
and personal use legally. In other words, you can't copy the book 
then sell the copies.


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
wrote:
> > 
> >... guilty of the heinous crime of recording 
> > his CD's  to cassette so he can listen to them in his car's 
> > tape player  :)
> 
> Actually that sort of thing was explicitly allowed by the copyright 
law;
> which is one reason that one of the music servers thought they 
could put
> the disks online and allow someone who proves they own the disk to
> listen to it.  And SvA's answer was strictly to the law, IIRC, on
> library tapes. 
>  
> Moreover, there is also a 'fair use' provision in the law, to cover 
a
> researcher making a copy of a paper or article out of a research 
journal
> for example - one personal copy for fair use.  Thus while I suspect 
that
> while the coloring book people would prefer you bought two copies, 
you
> can clearly legally make a single photocopy of a page, to color.  
> 
> But best ask a real copyright attorney, or  at least check some of 
the
> websites that offer copyright law guidance.
> 
> That's also the point of my posting URL's instead of article text - 
that
> clearly avoids an internet copyright problem.
> 
> -Brooks




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 22 15:25:06 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:25:06 -0000
Subject: Arthur and Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <000c01c0248c$9cb4f460$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qftki+lrvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1897

I think that episode was a directly indirect reference to the Goose 
Bumps" book series. But it applies to Harry Potter, Huckleberry Finn 
and other such *controversial* books.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Watching the television this morning with my son, I enjoyed seeing 
(a repeat) an episode of Arthur that reminded me of Harry Potter.  
The children were enthused about reading, something that many of the 
parents found amazing (again, like HP!).  A few parents got together, 
though, and created an Anti-"Scare Your Pants off book" group called 
PAWS (Parents against Weird Stories), and had the books banned from 
the library.  The episode went on to explain why the books were a 
good thing, and the lead parent in the group hadn't even read the 
series, so the author, who was revealed, read him one of the book.  
The basic "moral" of the show was don't condemn something you haven't 
read.  I wonder if we could make this show required reading for the 
HP banners?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Dee
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 21:10:29 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:10:29 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: IIRC and other internet shorthand; 
Message-ID: <F298ByqiAnKy44kwVj7000012ff@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1898


Thanks Brooke and others for that - I had got stuck on "I imagine ..." 
'nother question - I went to the web site last night and it was down. Is 
this just me or is it still down. I went to PoU ok (read ASA Chap 8 v. good 
:)Penny and carole - hope I've got the authors right this time - keep 
writing!)

storm
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Brooks R" <brooksar at indy.net>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: IIRC and other internet shorthand; Snape's 
relation to V and Harry
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:43:37 -0000

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...>
wrote:

 > btw what is IIRC? usually I'm pretty quick but that has me stumped!

BTW of course being "By the way".... IIRC is in the same category:

"If I remember* correctly".  *or recall.

These are the other most common ones:

LOL - laugh out loud  (implied that this is in response to a joke
someone made, or I am laughing as I am saying something)
ROFL or ROTFL  - Rolling on the floor laughing
ROFLMAO  or ROTFLMAO - Rolling on the floor laughing my a** (or a***,
if you're British) off.
IMO - in my opinion
IMHO  - in my humble opinion
imhotep - an Egyptian Pharaoh, not an internet shortcut!
IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
<g> grin - a different version of the 'smiley' :-)
(snip)  - not an abbreviation, but an indication that some quoted
material is removed, as less relevant to the reply.


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 22 15:31:34 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:31:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Tapes/copyright (semi-OT)
Message-ID: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8F6@FTLEXC1>

No: HPFGUIDX 1899

A lot of people have made interesting comments on copyright and Brooks &
Steve have provided a lot of good information about fair use - so here's my
I Am A Copyright Lawyer comment on the issues:
1. Yes, you can make a very limited number of copies for educational
purposes, but you can't make copies for everyone in your office or class
even if you think everyone will "learn something" from it. The rules on fair
use are very situation-specific and they're very easy to cross. 
2. You can make one copy of any computer program for archival purposes (in
other words, if your computer crashes, you've got a copy to load onto your
system without rebuying it)
3. You can make a copy of a cd or tape or record for your OWN use, but
cannot give that copy to someone else. I once read an article where a
commentator argued that you can't even play that copy if someone elss is in
the car but I think that's stretching it.
4. If someone gives you a license to make copies, you can make as many
copies as the license allows. And if a website allows you to put in an email
address to send a copy of the article to that address, and they don't say
that you cannot put in an address which goes to a mailing list, then there's
nothing wrong with sending an entire article to a whole mailing list that
way. And if someone says on the bottom of their email, "Feel free to send
this to anyone", then you can send it to anyone (but they still own the
copyright in it and you can't sell it & keep the profits)

> -------_->
> 
> In the United States, you can make copies for educational 
> and personal use legally. In other words, you can't copy the book 
> then sell the copies.
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
> wrote:
> > > 
> > >... guilty of the heinous crime of recording 
> > > his CD's  to cassette so he can listen to them in his car's 
> > > tape player  :)
> > 
> > Actually that sort of thing was explicitly allowed by the copyright 
> law;
> > which is one reason that one of the music servers thought they 
> could put
> > the disks online and allow someone who proves they own the disk to
> > listen to it.  And SvA's answer was strictly to the law, IIRC, on
> > library tapes. 
> >  
> > Moreover, there is also a 'fair use' provision in the law, to cover 
> a
> > researcher making a copy of a paper or article out of a research 
> journal
> > for example - one personal copy for fair use.  Thus while I suspect 
> that
> > while the coloring book people would prefer you bought two copies, 
> you
> > can clearly legally make a single photocopy of a page, to color.  
> > 
> > But best ask a real copyright attorney, or  at least check some of 
> the
> > websites that offer copyright law guidance.
> > 
> > That's also the point of my posting URL's instead of article text - 
> that
> > clearly avoids an internet copyright problem.
> > 
> > -Brooks


NOTICE: This e-mail message and any attachment to this e-mail message
contains confidential information that may be legally privileged. If you are
not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, convert to hard
copy, copy, use or disseminate this e-mail or any attachments to it. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return
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that if this e-mail message contains a forwarded message or is a reply to a
prior message, some or all of the contents of this message or any
attachments may not have been produced by Ruden, McClosky, Smith, Schuster,
& Russell, P.A.



From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 22 15:35:26 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:35:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Tapes/copyright (semi-OT)
References: <8qftfr+poe3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CB7C3E.78A2FE27@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1900

Hi --

milz wrote:

> In the United States, you can make copies for educational
> and personal use legally. In other words, you can't copy the book
> then sell the copies.

Well, it's a "bit" more complicated than that.  Fair Use -- as I
understand it -- is fairly narrow and prone to misinterpretation &
abuse.  Perhaps our resident IP lawyer (Heidi) could weigh in with some
layman-friendly guidelines.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 22 15:48:40 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:48:40 -0000
Subject: Tapes/copyright (semi-OT)
In-Reply-To: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8F6@FTLEXC1>
Message-ID: <8qfv0o+h0nr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1901

Thank you for clearing that up Heidi as people are unaware of the 
legalities in making copies of copywritten material for educational 
and personal usage.

:-)

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Tandy, Heidi" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> A lot of people have made interesting comments on copyright and 
Brooks &
> Steve have provided a lot of good information about fair use - so 
here's my
> I Am A Copyright Lawyer comment on the issues:
> 1. Yes, you can make a very limited number of copies for educational
> purposes, but you can't make copies for everyone in your office or 
class
> even if you think everyone will "learn something" from it. The 
rules on fair
> use are very situation-specific and they're very easy to cross. 
> 2. You can make one copy of any computer program for archival 
purposes (in
> other words, if your computer crashes, you've got a copy to load 
onto your
> system without rebuying it)
> 3. You can make a copy of a cd or tape or record for your OWN use, 
but
> cannot give that copy to someone else. I once read an article where 
a
> commentator argued that you can't even play that copy if someone 
elss is in
> the car but I think that's stretching it.
> 4. If someone gives you a license to make copies, you can make as 
many
> copies as the license allows. And if a website allows you to put in 
an email
> address to send a copy of the article to that address, and they 
don't say
> that you cannot put in an address which goes to a mailing list, 
then there's
> nothing wrong with sending an entire article to a whole mailing 
list that
> way. And if someone says on the bottom of their email, "Feel free 
to send
> this to anyone", then you can send it to anyone (but they still own 
the
> copyright in it and you can't sell it & keep the profits)
> 
> > -------_->
> > 
> > In the United States, you can make copies for educational 
> > and personal use legally. In other words, you can't copy the book 
> > then sell the copies.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" 
<brooksar at i...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >... guilty of the heinous crime of recording 
> > > > his CD's  to cassette so he can listen to them in his car's 
> > > > tape player  :)
> > > 
> > > Actually that sort of thing was explicitly allowed by the 
copyright 
> > law;
> > > which is one reason that one of the music servers thought they 
> > could put
> > > the disks online and allow someone who proves they own the disk 
to
> > > listen to it.  And SvA's answer was strictly to the law, IIRC, 
on
> > > library tapes. 
> > >  
> > > Moreover, there is also a 'fair use' provision in the law, to 
cover 
> > a
> > > researcher making a copy of a paper or article out of a 
research 
> > journal
> > > for example - one personal copy for fair use.  Thus while I 
suspect 
> > that
> > > while the coloring book people would prefer you bought two 
copies, 
> > you
> > > can clearly legally make a single photocopy of a page, to 
color.  
> > > 
> > > But best ask a real copyright attorney, or  at least check some 
of 
> > the
> > > websites that offer copyright law guidance.
> > > 
> > > That's also the point of my posting URL's instead of article 
text - 
> > that
> > > clearly avoids an internet copyright problem.
> > > 
> > > -Brooks
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This e-mail message and any attachment to this e-mail 
message
> contains confidential information that may be legally privileged. 
If you are
> not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, 
convert to hard
> copy, copy, use or disseminate this e-mail or any attachments to 
it. If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by 
return
> e-mail or by telephone at 954-764-6660 and delete this message. 
Please note
> that if this e-mail message contains a forwarded message or is a 
reply to a
> prior message, some or all of the contents of this message or any
> attachments may not have been produced by Ruden, McClosky, Smith, 
Schuster,
> & Russell, P.A.




From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Fri Sep 22 16:25:52 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 22 Sep 2000 16:25:52 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <969639952.31603@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1902


Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the HPforGrownups 
group:


Did your parents, other relatives, or 
teachers read fiction to you regularly 
during your childhood? 

  o YES 
  o NO, I learned to love books on my own. 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://www.egroups.com/polls/HPforGrownups 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 22 16:35:57 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:35:57 -0700
Subject: POLL: Early Reading Influences
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEJICCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1903

I've created a poll out of curiosity -- please pop over to the polls section
of this e-group and vote.  The question is:

     "Did your parents, other relatives, or teachers
      read to you regularly as a child?"

One of the most vivid memories I have as a child is my father sitting in a
chair reading (children's versions of) stories like "Tales of King Arthur,"
"The Count of Monte Cristo" and "Three Musketeers."  I can remember being
overjoyed in grade school when I discovered the unabridged versions of these
stories and could re-read them as if they were new experiences.

It seems that most of us here are avid readers, and I was curious to know if
this trait was developed in early childhood, by others reading to us, or by
our discovering books on our own.

So please take 30 second and vote -- it's the poll on the bottom of the list
(I think).

Thanks
S.M. Lunatic




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 22 16:45:43 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:45:43 -0000
Subject: cool book from Scholastic
In-Reply-To: <8qdnv6+snk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qg2bn+buqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1904

Are these Mary Grandpre's artwork or is it completely different?

Also, what is the Item Number for the book? 

Thanks,
Milz

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:
> My son just came home with a very cool book he ordered from the 
> Scholastic Book Order. It's called Harry Potter Coloring Fun Book 
and 
> it has some VERY nice artwork in it. The one of Snape glaring over 
> Harry's shoulder in Potions is wonderful. You can only get this 
> through the school orders, so if you don't have kids, you might 
have 
> to call Scholastic and whine a little. I plan to order one of these 
> for myself, since my son didn't take to the idea of not coloring in 
> his. 
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 22 18:50:48 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:50:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qft47+tsgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000922195048.36.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1905

On 22.09.2000 at 15:16:23 milz  wrote:

>I think Slytherin had definite goals for Hogwarts. We really don't 
>know why he was against Muggle-borns, though V.'s interpretation 
>leads us to believe it was a type of *racial* prejudice.

IIRC Slytherin thought that Muggles could not be trusted. When
muggle-born wizards came to Hogwarts their families would know about
it and about the existence of Wizards. In present days one of the
most important task of the Ministry of Magic is to keep the existence
of Wizards from the Muggles. Hagrid says it's to prevent Muggles from
harrassing Wizards with their problems, but things like the Muggle
Protection Act Mr. Weasley is working on suggest that this is not the
only reason. Witch hunt and inquisition may not have been so
effective, but must have been problematic anyway.

I wonder how this can work today. With all the muggle-born Wizards,
isn't it likely that some Muggle parents would rather drag their kid
through the talk shows than let him or her go to Hogwarts?

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep 22 19:08:34 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:08:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partnerships
Message-ID: <v02140b01b5f15e9bad8c@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 1906

>
>On Fri, 22 September 2000, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>
>> Okay, I can't stand it. I can't figure this one out: "PoU"? It's not a
>>book title, at least not an American one. Is it a site?
>>
>> --Amanda
>
>Amanda,
>
>It stands for Paradigm of Uncertainty.  It is an adult Harry Potter fanfic
>by Lori Summers, and it is one of the best on the web.  It takes place 9
>years after graduation, and a Harry/Hermione relationship is emphasized.
>
"Adult" in the for-grownups sense, not "adult" in the porn-movie sense.  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From sarvalsha at dellnet.com  Fri Sep 22 20:07:01 2000
From: sarvalsha at dellnet.com (sarvalsha at dellnet.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:07:01 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
In-Reply-To: <39CAD4BF.98B8B466@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qge55+947n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1907

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> I'll bet you all think I'm going to talk about Dudley, aren't you?
> 
(snip)
> 
> Once I started thinking about gluttony this way, I found that 
Dudley has
> several spiritual "twins," if you will, characters with a ravenous
> capacity, who suffer all the attendant troubles (selfishness, skewed
> relationships, inability to recognize that they're not the center 
of the
> world).
> 
> The first, of course, is Voldemort.
> 
> The second I didn't see right away, but once I did, I realized he 
fits
> the profile, too.  The other great glutton in the series is Gilderoy
> Lockhart.
> 
(snip)
> 
> Peg


Interesting that you mentioned Lockhart. One of the amazing things 
about Lockhart for me is that on some level he seems to believe he is 
who he tells the world he is. He's not totally delusional; he tells 
Ron and Harry that he didn't really do the things in his books. But 
he operates his life as if he had. 

Most people in his position would I think avoid circumstances which 
would blow their cover. Yet Lockhart actively seeks out opportunities 
which end up making him look foolish. He attemps to give advice and 
instruction to other professors. He sets up the dueling club. He 
tries to fix Harry's arm. 

He fails at each one but continues as if he hasn't. He actually seems 
to think that he is well-liked and well-respected. 

The only moments of self-awareness come after he has been blasted by 
the Memory Charm gone wrong. When someone mentions he is a professor, 
he says he must be hopeless at it. He also defers to other people, 
saying for instance, that he doesn't have a sword but Harry does (or 
somthing like that, I don't have the book handy). In general, I find 
him an incredibly annoying person, one of the reasons CoS is my least 
favorite of the books. But I actually like him at this point. 

Recently, it struck me that Trelawney seems to share some of 
Lockhart's delusions. Like Lockhart, there are some people who almost 
idolize her. But the overall perception that is presented is that she 
is a fraud. And like Lockhart she believes the fraud. One of the 
things that stands out in my mind, is when Harry has the dream in her 
class and she says that it is because he is influenced by the 
atmosphere she creates there. The power of her presence. 

Yet we know because Dumbledore tells us so, that she has only made 
two real predictions in her entire career. And the one she makes in 
our presence she is not aware of and denies to Harry. Yet she goes on 
living her life and conducting her classes as if she is an actual 
talented seer. Ironic isn't it that the seer is blind to her own true 
nature?

This I think is part of the power of these books. They are populated 
with diverse characters who invoke a myriad of emotions in readers. 
They force us to think not only about what we admire and what we 
don't but also what we should admire and what we should't and what 
the difference is between those things. There is so much to the books 
if you are paying attention. 

Yet the rest of the power comes I think from the sheer fun. Every 
time I get to any part that is 'serious' about 'Sirius', I have to 
giggle. The books manage to appeal to the kid in me at the same time 
it appeals to the adult. It's MAGIC. 


Margaret




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Fri Sep 22 19:56:54 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:56:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qdqru+v5rr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011a01c024d4$02001380$d78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1908


> Kelley:  That's true, not all people who were in the house Slyth
> became dark.  Interesting.  There is one point, I think in SS, that
> Hagrid says that there were no wizards that went dark that ~weren't~
> in Slyth, so I took this to mean that no one from the other houses
> followed Vold, but then wouldn't this mean that Pettigrew must have
> been in Slyth?  Maybe Pettigrew and the rest of the Marauders were in
> Slyth when they were at HW.  And Lily was in Gryff (because she was
> descended from Gryff-- AAAAH! Here I go...!).

I'm 100% certain Lily was in Gryffindor - to die for your child like she did
is a supreme act of courage.  Pettigrew - who knows?  Probably a Slyth,
you're quite right.  But I don't think the other three Marauders were.  They
seem more Gryffindor types to me.
James showed Gryff courage in trying to hold off Voldy, Sirius and James
seemed pretty courageous in breaking the law to become Animagi simply to
keep their friend happy, and then there's Sirius and Lupin telling Wormtail
in PoA "Then you should have been willing to die for us, as we would have
done for you."  These are not the actions of Slytherins.  Also, had Harry
been put in a different house to the Marauders (and the arch-rival one at
that) relations between them would probably not have run as smoothly as they
have done.

Jinx




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 22 20:55:50 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:55:50 -0000
Subject: Tapes/copyright (semi-OT) and the joy of HP on Audio
In-Reply-To: <1AB004C24D4CD311A19D0008C75F90EF0107A8F6@FTLEXC1>
Message-ID: <8qgh0m+apba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1909

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Tandy, Heidi" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:

use - so here's my > I Am A Copyright Lawyer comment on the issues:> 
3. You can make a copy of a cd or tape or record for your OWN use, but
> cannot give that copy to someone else. I once read an article where 

So it sounds as though I could take my HP cassette tapes and get a 
friend to burn them onto CDs so that I could continue to play them in 
my new car which will have a CD player but no cassette player without 
having to reinvest in all four books on CD.

HOWEVER, I could not then give or sell the cassettes legally to 
anyone else.  I have to keep them as an archival form.  sorry Brooks.

On the other hand, another friend pointed out that a cassette to CD 
transfer would take time, money for the writable CDs and produce a 
product with a fair amount of hiss.  Plus, unless cd players now come 
with a memory of where on the CD you are, I would need to relocate 
the place each time I started the car or babysit the transfer 
creating my own CD sections.  Hmm, when all is said and done, it 
might not be worth the time, expense etc.

If the CDs were available at Sams or another store as a discount as 
good as the discount on the cassettes, I would just reinvest in them 
on CD.  Thus far, however, neither Brooks nor I have found any great 
discounts on the CDs.  They are definitely harder to find and more 
expensive.

I am going to have to do something, as I love listening to the tapes 
in the car.  Jim Dale does such a great job as a dramatic reading and 
really adds to the book.  When book five comes out, I will definitely 
buy it both in book and CD form and would highly recommend them to 
anyone who spends much time in their car by themselves.

There was a brief discussion several weeks ago on Jim Dale v. the 
English reader of the tapes, and I have to say now that, IMO, Jim 
Dale wins hands down.  My Dad bought books one and two on tape in 
England (which is astonishing in and of itself) and that is how I had 
the English book one to listen to on tape.  The English reader is 
decent, even good at some characters, but his female voices are very 
bad and overall Jim Dale does a much better dramatic rendition of the 
books.  The one thing the English version has is the correct title of 
the book (IMO) and the correct pronunciation of Hermione.  The 
English reader is easy for an american ear to understand; there is no 
accent problem at all, but he just doesn't do it as well as Jim Dale 
did it.  If you are given a choice, I recommend you buy the Jim Dale 
audio tapes over the English audio tapes.


Vicki





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 21:05:11 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:05:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Tapes/copyright (semi-OT) and the joy of HP on Audio
References: <8qgh0m+apba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006501c024d8$d333d820$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1910

Why not buy a "plugable" tape player for the car?  There are several now that may help you listen as you go!  (I plan to buy, upgrade to a dual system if I get the chance--both cd and tape player deck evidently!)    

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Vicki Merriman 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:55 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Tapes/copyright (semi-OT) and the joy of HP on Audio



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Tandy, Heidi" 
  <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:

  use - so here's my > I Am A Copyright Lawyer comment on the issues:> 
  3. You can make a copy of a cd or tape or record for your OWN use, but
  > cannot give that copy to someone else. I once read an article where 

  So it sounds as though I could take my HP cassette tapes and get a 
  friend to burn them onto CDs so that I could continue to play them in 
  my new car which will have a CD player but no cassette player without 
  having to reinvest in all four books on CD.

  HOWEVER, I could not then give or sell the cassettes legally to 
  anyone else.  I have to keep them as an archival form.  sorry Brooks.

  On the other hand, another friend pointed out that a cassette to CD 
  transfer would take time, money for the writable CDs and produce a 
  product with a fair amount of hiss.  Plus, unless cd players now come 
  with a memory of where on the CD you are, I would need to relocate 
  the place each time I started the car or babysit the transfer 
  creating my own CD sections.  Hmm, when all is said and done, it 
  might not be worth the time, expense etc.

  If the CDs were available at Sams or another store as a discount as 
  good as the discount on the cassettes, I would just reinvest in them 
  on CD.  Thus far, however, neither Brooks nor I have found any great 
  discounts on the CDs.  They are definitely harder to find and more 
  expensive.

  I am going to have to do something, as I love listening to the tapes 
  in the car.  Jim Dale does such a great job as a dramatic reading and 
  really adds to the book.  When book five comes out, I will definitely 
  buy it both in book and CD form and would highly recommend them to 
  anyone who spends much time in their car by themselves.

  There was a brief discussion several weeks ago on Jim Dale v. the 
  English reader of the tapes, and I have to say now that, IMO, Jim 
  Dale wins hands down.  My Dad bought books one and two on tape in 
  England (which is astonishing in and of itself) and that is how I had 
  the English book one to listen to on tape.  The English reader is 
  decent, even good at some characters, but his female voices are very 
  bad and overall Jim Dale does a much better dramatic rendition of the 
  books.  The one thing the English version has is the correct title of 
  the book (IMO) and the correct pronunciation of Hermione.  The 
  English reader is easy for an american ear to understand; there is no 
  accent problem at all, but he just doesn't do it as well as Jim Dale 
  did it.  If you are given a choice, I recommend you buy the Jim Dale 
  audio tapes over the English audio tapes.


  Vicki



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep 22 21:11:19 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:11:19 -0000
Subject: Tapes/copyright (semi-OT) and the joy of HP on Audio
In-Reply-To: <8qgh0m+apba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qghtn+9e4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1911

re: Jim Dale's renditions

> bad and overall Jim Dale does a much better dramatic rendition of 
the 
> books.  The one thing the English version has is the correct title 
of 
> the book (IMO) and the correct pronunciation of Hermione.  

I'm not sure what you mean here. I've listened to the first three 
books on tape and I am half way through GF and I have yet to hear Jim 
Dale mispronounce Hermione's name. I've heard a few other minor 
errors but not that one. Could you clarify?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 22 21:16:08 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:16:08 -0000
Subject: POLL: Early Reading Influences
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEJICCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qgi6o+esdr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1912

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> I've created a poll out of curiosity -- please pop over to the 
polls section
> of this e-group and vote. 

The polls are great.  I recommend everyone go vote.  The more the 
merrier.


 The question is:
> 
>      "Did your parents, other relatives, or teachers
>       read to you regularly as a child?"
> 
> One of the most vivid memories I have as a child is my father 
sitting in a > chair reading 

> It seems that most of us here are avid readers, and I was curious 
to know if> this trait was developed in early childhood, by others 
reading to us, or by> our discovering books on our own.

I wasn't sure which way to jump on this poll and finally went 
with "read to by parents."  My parents read bedtime stories when I 
was small, but didn't do much reading to me or my sister aside from 
that.  My dad had some bedtime stories he knew by heart (Stone soup 
was one of them.)  

However, we both read a lot from the time we could read because there 
were always books of various levels (from children's to adult)in our 
house and because our parents read a lot.  So while I would have to 
say that once I knew how to read my parents didn't read to me a lot 
except for some bedtime stories, I DEFINITELY think that I developed 
a love of books from my parents.  Sort of a combination of being read 
to while quite small but also from the example they set.  In our 
house, people read, if that explanation makes sense.

You might want to expand the number of answer choices, if that is 
possible once the poll has started.

Vicki




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Sep 22 21:18:31 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:18:31 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <011a01c024d4$02001380$d78f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8qgib7+c6ev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1913

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jinx" <jinxster at c...> wrote:
> I'm 100% certain Lily was in Gryffindor - to die for your child 
like she did is a supreme act of courage.  Pettigrew - who knows?  
Probably a Slyth, you're quite right.  But I don't think the other 
three Marauders were.  They seem more Gryffindor types to me.
> James showed Gryff courage in trying to hold off Voldy, Sirius and 
James seemed pretty courageous in breaking the law to become Animagi 
simply to keep their friend happy, and then there's Sirius and Lupin 
telling Wormtail in PoA "Then you should have been willing to die for 
us, as we would have done for you."  These are not the actions of 
Slytherins.  Also, had Harry been put in a different house to the 
Marauders (and the arch-rival one at that) relations between them 
would probably not have run as smoothly as they have done.
> 
> Jinx

Jinx--  I know you didn't mention this, I'm not sure who did, but I 
want to include it here.  It was mentioned that Hagrid might not be 
the most reliable source when he says that "there wasn't a wizard who 
went bad who wasn't in Slyth."  Perhaps, but this sounds like a clue 
to me.  And, at this point Hagrid knows about Sirius, even if we 
don't.  (This was in SS)  So, is Hagrid including Sirius in this 
categorization?  I agree, if I had to guess what House the Marauders 
were in, I'd guess Gryff--don't know about Pettigrew.  Lupin seems 
like he would fit in with Raven., too.  James certainly seems Gryff 
all the way.  Lily, too, or maybe Raven.  Knowing what we now know 
about Pettigrew, we'd probably want to put him in Slyth, but who 
knows?  They could all be in different Houses, but we haven't seen 
much evidence for friendships between students of different houses.  
Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.  I'm wondering however, would JKR be 
so obvious?  If we find out the Marauders were all in Gryff, people 
would think "Well, DUH."  Plus, "if they're all in Gryff, like we 
thought, why make it such a big secret?"  It seems that the reason we 
haven't learned this, that no character has even mentioned it, it 
must be a surprise.  That's certainly JKR's style, pulling the rug 
out 
from under us.  Look how many times she's done it so far.  The 
climax/denouement of each book so far, and many little tidbits 
throughout.  And, just to throw this in, Cedric seemed very 'heroic' 
and he was Mr. Hufflepuff.

Just my thoughts.

Kelley 




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 22 21:22:19 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:22:19 -0500
Subject: Joy of HP on Audio
References: <8qghtn+9e4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CBCD8B.B3ACAF5D@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1914

Hi --

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> re: Jim Dale's renditions
>
> > bad and overall Jim Dale does a much better dramatic rendition of
> the books.  The one thing the English version has is the correct title
>
> of the book (IMO) and the correct pronunciation of Hermione.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here. I've listened to the first three
> books on tape and I am half way through GF and I have yet to hear Jim
> Dale mispronounce Hermione's name. I've heard a few other minor
> errors but not that one. Could you clarify?

I can!  Hermione *should* be pronounced Her-My-Uh-Knee (4 syllables).
Jim Dale's pronounciation *sounds* like Har-mon-ie (or Her-ma-knee) to
me.  Someone on another listserve who has *only* listened to the books
on audio & not read them kept spelling her name Harmonie in fact.  So, I
know I'm not the only one who hears it like that.  I understand from
some that Dale is glossing the two middle syllables together with a
schwa sound -- but the end result is that her name sounds wrong to me.
And, what I don't understand is how he can keep repeating that when he
clearly enunciates all 4 syllables & pronounces it properly in the 2-3
places in GoF where Hermione is pronounced for someone else's benefit.

Then again -- supposedly Dale consults with JKR on quite a bit, so maybe
she's approved this pronounciation.

I will second Vicki's recommendation of the audio versions -- definitely
worth it for anyone who spends any amount of time in their car.  I've
listened to nothing but HP in my car in 7 mths.  They've been loaned out
to various friends and played over & over & over . . . .they are great
(although Dale's pronounciation of Hermione AND his voice for her
character really bug me -- she comes off sounding whiny & shrill.  While
that might be appropriate in the beginning of PS, she's changed quite a
bit in the later books).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 22 21:36:51 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:36:51 -0000
Subject: Ear differences from Jim Dale's audio tapes
In-Reply-To: <8qghtn+9e4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qgjdj+eves@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1915

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> 
wrote:

> I'm not sure what you mean here. I've listened to the first three 
> books on tape and I am half way through GF and I have yet to hear 
Jim 
> Dale mispronounce Hermione's name. I've heard a few other minor 
> errors but not that one. Could you clarify?

Hmmm, maybe its an ear difference.  Interesting.  When I listen to 
Jim Dale, I hear "Her Mah Nee" as a three syllable word (accent on 
Mah - rhymes with "say 'ah' for the doctor") instead of "Her My O 
Nee" as a four syllable word (accent on My, half accent on O.)

By contrast, to my ears, the english reader spoke a clear "Her My O 
Nee."

What do you hear?

Vicki




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Fri Sep 22 21:55:06 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:55:06 -0000
Subject: Joy of HP on Audio
In-Reply-To: <39CBCD8B.B3ACAF5D@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qgkfq+6i3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1916

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer -Knee (4 
syllables).
> clearly enunciates all 4 syllables & pronounces it properly in the 
2-3
> places in GoF where Hermione is pronounced for someone else's 
benefit.

It is SO ODD.  He clearly states "Her My Uh Nee" in the paragraph and 
promptly returns to Her mah nee.

> Then again -- supposedly Dale consults with JKR on quite a bit, so 
maybe> she's approved this pronounciation.

May be.  Perhaps book one was virtually finished and everyone just 
decided to keep it that way for consistency's sake, but I agree that 
it just sounds wrong to me.

They've been loaned out
> to various friends and played over & over & over . . . .they are 
great

My mother is in the middle of book two. She and Dad listened to book 
one on a lengthy road trip and I suggested that there was no reason 
she couldn't listen in the car going to and from work. On the first 
day she started book two she actually called me at work in the middle 
of the morning to tell me that "I hadn't told her it would be 
difficult to leave her car once she got to work."  Such a thing is 
unheard of in my experience.  For my mother to actually interrupt her 
day to call is a really strong recommendation of both the books and 
audio tapes (she's an attorney and very dedicated.  Type A 
personality)

And some people still maintain these are "children's books."

> (although Dale's pronounciation of Hermione AND his voice for her
> character really bug me -- she comes off sounding whiny & shrill.  
While> that might be appropriate in the beginning of PS, she's 
changed quite a > bit in the later books).

He should definitely adjust it.  If he has email, or even a snail 
mail address, you could write and tell him that Hermione will be 15 
or thereabouts in book five, and that it really is time for him to 
readjust her "voice."  From what I've read, Jim Dale works hard to 
figure out the characters voices, and he should be amenable to such a 
suggestion.

Frankly, I also think he got the Beauxbatons headmistress wrong.  JKR 
said that she had a deep voice, but Jim Dale gave her a voice deeper 
than most of his male characters.  Her voice may be deep, but its not 
a baritone.  If a listener wasn't told she was a woman, I am sure he 
would think the character was male.  No one's perfect.

Vicki






From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 22 22:04:23 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:04:23 -0000
Subject: Ear differences from Jim Dale's audio tapes
In-Reply-To: <8qgjdj+eves@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qgl17+kkf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1917

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
wrote:

> Hmmm, maybe its an ear difference.  Interesting.  When I listen to 
> Jim Dale, I hear "Her Mah Nee" as a three syllable word (accent on 
> Mah - rhymes with "say 'ah' for the doctor") instead of "Her My O 
> Nee" as a four syllable word (accent on My, half accent on O.)

> What do you hear?

Actually Vicki, I meant to listen to yours again Real Soon Now.  I 
(who tend to have a pretty good ear for sounds if I can get them 
isolated) think that the other day, when I was listening to your 
tapes, I was hearing a diphthong as someone mentioned earlier.  I 
could almost imagine he was saying it as a slurred "Her-My-Owe-Nee" 
instead of "Her-MAH-Nee" - as if it was "Her Mya Nee".   

-Brooks




From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 22 22:12:48 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:12:48 -0700
Subject: Poll
In-Reply-To: <8qgi6o+esdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEJNCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1918

Well, RATZ!  I thought you had a good idea here, Vicki, so I went and edited
the poll to include a third choice.  Unfortunately it wiped out all the
votes that were already there.  I apologize to those who were kind enough to
vote, and now must either re-vote or sneer at me and turn away....


>>>>You might want to expand the number of answer choices, if that is
possible once the poll has started.
Vicki<<<<<<<




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 22 22:18:59 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:18:59 -0000
Subject: POLL: Early Reading Influences
In-Reply-To: <8qgi6o+esdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qglsj+h885@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1919

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
wrote:

> I wasn't sure which way to jump on this poll and finally went 
> with "read to by parents."  My parents read bedtime stories when I 
> was small, but didn't do much reading to me or my sister aside from 
> that.

 (snip)
 
>I DEFINITELY think that I developed 
> a love of books from my parents.  Sort of a combination of being 
read 
> to while quite small but also from the example they set.  In our 
> house, people read, if that explanation makes sense.


I kow I was read to when I was pre-kindergarten - but I DON'T
REMEMBER IT.  Primarily by my mother, who read a lot.  But once I 
learned to read in first grade, I outpaced everyone else in my class; 
and after proving my ability in the different school I went to in 
second grade, got special dispensation (when the 1st and 2nd graders 
were restricted to a limited section of the school library with the 
'early readers' books) to be able to go to the section open for all 
older students - I still remember trying to phonetically pronounce 
'rendezvous' in English, from a 6th grade-level 'future of space 
flight' book (when there was still a possibility that the Gemini 
capsules would land on the ground with a Rogallo Wing parachute 
instead of water splashdowns)..... 

And speaking of space flight - a moment of silence please in honor of 
the second human in space, Gherman Titov, who had been the last 
survivor of the four men, two US and two Russian, of the 1961 space 
flights..... 

I read _The Martian Chronicles_ in third grade.

Anyway - and then I won a 'number of books read' contest in 7th grade.
But I didn't read Narnia till I was in college and my fiance told me 
what I had missed; although I read LOTR as a freshman in high school 
and loved it.  (Didn't read _Peter Pan_ until I was in college 
either).  And I have only ever read the first Oz book.  I didn't read 
any Raggedy Anne's until I was in my thirties!  (Of course they had 
been out of print for a while by then).

-Brooks




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Sep 22 22:32:56 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:32:56 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ear differences from Jim Dale's audio tap
Message-ID: <id.22092000183256.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 1920

Vicki said:  <Hmmm, maybe its an ear difference.  Interesting.  When I listen to  Jim Dale, I hear "Her Mah Nee" as a three syllable word (accent on  Mah - rhymes with "say 'ah' for the doctor") instead of "Her My O  Nee" as a four syllable word (accent on My, half accent on O.)

By contrast, to my ears, the english reader spoke a clear "Her My O  Nee."

What do you hear?>

When I listen to Jim Dale's versions, I hear a definite Her My uh knee - run quickly together, of course.  But you also have to take into consideration that this is what I do for a living as a voiceover actor.  Trust me, people, he's saying it correctly.

voicelady


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 22 23:39:32 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:39:32 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
References: <8qfn4f+77jo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE487xBNWep4CMxfqcl00000810@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1921

Brian said:
   Your right that it doesn't make much sense for James and Lilly to 
swith places.  But in post 1530 (I think) I proposed a scanario where 
James and Harry switched.  I admit it has holes and I'm not exactly a 
big proponent of it but I do think it explains things as well as 
anything that's been thought up so far.  Although the idea that Snape 
killed James with Voldy's wand after the attempt to kill Harry makes 
a certain amount of sense too.
                                       

I don't think that Harry and James could have swapped placed - this would have left a small 14 month old baby in a body that the could not control. Remember the polyjuice potion just gives you the phsycal (sp) charictoristics (sp) of the person/cat you transform into - not access to there skills/memories etc

storm



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:34 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
  wrote:
  > 
  > Hallo all,
  > 
  > I joined the list a short while ago and I very much enjoy reading
  > your insights. 
  > 
  > As for the Polyjuice Potion theory, there's another point that
  > doesn't fit the picture. Even if there was a strong enough reason to
  > keep the heirs of Gryffindor alive (assuming that James and Harry 
  are
  > his descendants) to make James trade places and appearance with his
  > wife and put her up as Voldemorts prime target, did he really have
  > reason to think Voldemort would let Lily live, given his hatred of
  > muggle-born wizards?
  > 
  > Greetings
  > Christina


  Christina,
     Your right that it doesn't make much sense for James and Lilly to 
  swith places.  But in post 1530 (I think) I proposed a scanario where 
  James and Harry switched.  I admit it has holes and I'm not exactly a 
  big proponent of it but I do think it explains things as well as 
  anything that's been thought up so far.  Although the idea that Snape 
  killed James with Voldy's wand after the attempt to kill Harry makes 
  a certain amount of sense too.
                                          Brian


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 22 22:47:40 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:47:40 -0000
Subject: Snape; AK in Harry's future?; AvEda Kedavra
Message-ID: <8qgnic+276v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1922

A friend who is now reading my GoF has suggested Snape needs sort of 
the converse of Vicki's suggestion as to what Remus needs.  (which 
was "A good meal, a good rest, and to get laid").  The suggestion is 
that SNAPE needs to be gotten drunk, some good shampoo, and to be 
taken to a bordello, which might dramatically improve HIS attitude.  
Failing that, at least get him some chocolate every day!

Here is a potential conundrum for Harry - what if he winds up (say in 
book VII) feeling that HE has to try to use the Avada Kedavra curse* 
on Voldemort before Voldy can do him?  Would he be able to get off on 
a self-defense plea? ("Automatic life sentence in Azkaban for anyone 
who uses one of those curses on another human.")

And then there is the AvEda Kedavra curse, which not only kills you, 
it also coats your face with expensive cosmetics.

http://www.aveda.com/

-Brooks




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 22 22:57:44 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:57:44 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
In-Reply-To: <8qge55+947n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qgo58+pko1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1923

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, sarvalsha at d... wrote:
> Interesting that you mentioned Lockhart. One of the amazing things 
> about Lockhart for me is that on some level he seems to believe he 
is 
> who he tells the world he is. He's not totally delusional; he tells 
> Ron and Harry that he didn't really do the things in his books. But 
> he operates his life as if he had. 
> 
> Most people in his position would I think avoid circumstances which 
> would blow their cover. Yet Lockhart actively seeks out 
opportunities 
> which end up making him look foolish. He attemps to give advice and 
> instruction to other professors. He sets up the dueling club. He 
> tries to fix Harry's arm. 
> 
> He fails at each one but continues as if he hasn't. He actually 
seems 
> to think that he is well-liked and well-respected. 

Good analysis of Lockhart - It makes me wonder who he is based on, 
since JKR has said in an interview that the only character she 
actually based on someone she knew was Lockhart.  My guess is her ex-
husband.  Partially because, in my experience, there is no jerk in 
the world as jerky as the jerk you used to be in love with; also 
because ex-spouse bashing is a lot more socially acceptable (and 
understandable) than bashing of a random person who you just dont 
like.  Also, I understand that some London tabloid dug up ex-hubby 
somewhere in Portugal and interviewed him, and he claimed to have 
influenced the HP books (which JKR started writing AFTER the 
divorce).  I just love JKRs response, that her ex had about as much 
input into HP as she had into The Tale of Two Cities.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 22 23:06:37 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:06:37 -0000
Subject: Joy of HP on Audio
In-Reply-To: <39CBCD8B.B3ACAF5D@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qgolt+kn91@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1924

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> 
[snip]
> (although Dale's pronounciation of Hermione AND his voice for her
> character really bug me -- she comes off sounding whiny & shrill.  
While
> that might be appropriate in the beginning of PS, she's changed 
quite a
> bit in the later books).

I agree with Penny about the above, however where Penny mostly seems 
to enjoy Dales rendition I really dont.  I have listened to only half 
of PoA on tape, but I found his voice to be so whiny, especially when 
he does Hermione, that it got on my nerves. A lot.  The way small 
children do.  But I guess that is why I am an evil Joywitch, the kind 
that boils little children in her black cauldron when the little 
whiners wander into her cave.

--Joywitch, who has to go out and get some more firewood now




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 22 23:14:34 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:14:34 -0400
Subject: The fun of yahoo....  Beta style. OT completely!
References: <8qgolt+kn91@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013901c024ea$e2df3500$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1925

Ok, this is completely ot.  Yahoo has decided to issue a new version of the messenger.

Here's the link>  http://messenger.yahoo.com/messenger/download/beta/index.html

The one problem I have discovered so far is that the old skins are NOT compatible.  I don't really mind tho.  The best advantage so far?  YOU CAN FADE!!!!!!!! YOUR TEXT!

Now, if you know me in chat, you know this makes me cheer!!!!

Grins.

For those who wish to fade in chat, http://www.cheetachat.com 

and, no, I don't get commission.

Dee    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From farrago at msn.com  Fri Sep 22 23:26:13 2000
From: farrago at msn.com (Steve Wilson)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:26:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
References: <8qgo58+pko1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009001c024ec$7fadc3f0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>

No: HPFGUIDX 1926

> > He fails at each one but continues as if he hasn't. He actually 
> seems 
> > to think that he is well-liked and well-respected. 
> 
> Good analysis of Lockhart - It makes me wonder who he is based on, 
> since JKR has said in an interview that the only character she 
> actually based on someone she knew was Lockhart.  My guess is her ex-
> husband

I think it's Bill Clinton.






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 23 00:45:55 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:45:55 -0400
Subject: so I got Elizabeth Schafter's book...
References: <8qgo58+pko1@eGroups.com> <009001c024ec$7fadc3f0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>
Message-ID: <39CBFD43.8890EB2@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1927

and while I haven't read every single word of it, I've given it a pretty
good overview - this post is part review (part A) and part Plan To Allow
Many Listies To Read It Without Violating Copyrights (part B)...


Part A
Apart from the fact that in places, the grammar is terrible ("...such as
William Wallace known as Braveheart whose physique and daring somewhat
resembles Hagrid, the school's gamekeeper.") and for some reason the really
long list of mythical creatures includes Achilles, Sartyrs and the MInotaur,
but don't include Phoenixes, the information is fine in some places (the
discussion of magic through the ages, starting in ancient Egypt, is brief
but interesting), unsupported in others (her statement on Page 92 about
"house membership as revealed in books 1-3 and their characteristics
according to the sorting hat" places Dumbledore and all 3 potters in
Gryffndor, even though there is no concrete evidence to support that), and
really really weird in other places (she claims that Hagrid is like Poseiden
because of his mastery of the water (is she refering to the fact that he
brings 1st years to the school in boats, because I can't find ANYTHING
else).
Oh, and she states unequivocally that there are 280 students in the school.
Unequivocally - right!
Some of the activities for students are clever or at least interesting -
write a report on how garlic has been used as a magic potion throughout
history - but others are kind of dippy, even for little kids- polish AND
paint a stone to look like your idea of the Philosopher's/Sorcerer/s Stone.
But the vocabulary lists in each of the chapter discussions would be great
for teachers of mid-elementary school students, if they want an easy way to
put them together for vocab or spelling tests without reading each chapter
with a fine toothed comb.
Overall, a very mixed bag (I've scribbled comments throughout) - but I want
to hear what more of you have to say, which is why we have....
Part B.
I am sending it to Penny on Monday. She is also going to scribble her
comments in it, and then will send it on to another listie, who will do the
same, and so on and so on. When everyone who wants to read it has had the
chance, it gets sent back to me, so I can put it into a time capsule, to be
opened one month after Book VII comes out -so we can laugh at what we
thought about characters & what we predicted would happen.
If you want to be on the list, send me an email - and put SCHAFER in the
title - otherwise, it won't go into the correct filter - the first 25 people
who send me their names will be on the list to get the book - don't sign up
if you won't be able to cover the postage to send it to someone else in your
country. ANd I'm going to have to limit it to the US, Canada and the British
Isles for now - if you live elsewhere but want to be on the list, let me
know & I'll see what we can do.




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Sep 23 01:25:34 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:25:34 EDT
Subject: SCHAFER.
Message-ID: <id.22092000212534.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 1928

Heidi - I don't have a browser, and therefore, can't see your email address. but I'd love to be added to the list please!  I'm at voicelady at mymailstation.com if you'd like to email me back.  Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------
<If you want to be on the list, send me an email - and put SCHAFER in the title - otherwise, it won't go into the correct filter - the first 25 people who send me their names will be on the list to get the book>



From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 23 01:54:02 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 01:54:02 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew in Slytherin?
Message-ID: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1929

There is good evidence, IMO, to put all of the Marauders as well as 
Lily in Gryffindor. Pettigrew might be considered evil and seem a 
likely candidate for Slytherin, but think about the reasons he turned 
evil.  The defining characteristic of Slytherins is strong ambition, 
which can often lead to evil.  But Wormtail turned evil out of fear, 
not out of ambition.  But while his cowardice might seem to rule him 
out of Gryffindor as well, he does show some occasional sparks of 
bravery.  When I mentioned my opinions on this subject before, 
someone mentioned that it would have taken physical courage for 
Pettigrew to cut off his hand for Voldermort.  There his also his 
attacking Draco on the train in PS when he was bothering Harry.  This 
scene, when considered in light of Scabbers being revealed as 
Pettigrew, raises all sorts of interesting questions on Pettigrew's 
motivation for doing that: was it out of some grudge against Draco's 
father from when they were Death Eaters, or a manifestation of a last 
shred of loyalty to James?




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 23 02:16:57 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:16:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Joy of HP on Audio
References: <8qgolt+kn91@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CC1299.1005FAED@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1930

Joywitch wrote:

> But I guess that is why I am an evil Joywitch, the kind
> that boils little children in her black cauldron when the little
> whiners wander into her cave.

Do you have an established source for whiners, or would you like one of
mine? I'll throw in some mesquite chips....

--Amanda, who's had a *really* hard day with the 5-year-old attitude with
feet





From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 23 02:18:21 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:18:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 7 Deadly Sins: Gluttony
References: <8qgo58+pko1@eGroups.com> <009001c024ec$7fadc3f0$bce2c69d@Wilsons>
Message-ID: <39CC12ED.83BE01A9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1931

Steve Wilson wrote:

> > actually based on someone she knew was Lockhart.  My guess is her ex-
> > husband
>
> I think it's Bill Clinton.

Oh, thank you, I really needed a good laugh!

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 23 02:29:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:29:20 -0500
Subject: Lily's House
Message-ID: <39CC157F.62A9E2E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1932

Hi, everyone. For no reason I can put my finger on, it suddenly occurred
to me that Lily would have been a good Ravenclaw. I guess it's that
charms seem to require a bit upstairs to get right, and she was
evidently fast on her feet when confronted with a crisis, to get Harry
both physically out of the way and protected. Any thoughts?

--Amanda




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 23 03:49:23 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:49:23 -0000
Subject: Lily's House
In-Reply-To: <39CC157F.62A9E2E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qh983+qhdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1933

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Hi, everyone. For no reason I can put my finger on, it suddenly 
occurred
> to me that Lily would have been a good Ravenclaw. I guess it's that
> charms seem to require a bit upstairs to get right, and she was
> evidently fast on her feet when confronted with a crisis, to get 
Harry
> both physically out of the way and protected. Any thoughts?
> 
> --Amanda

I think so too, Amanda.  We know she must have been brave to face 
Vold and protect Harry.  But, I can't help thinking it's been 
mentioned more that she was quite smart.  (Plus, it kind of makes it 
hard to hang on to my "Lily is Gryff's descendant" theory.)  Lupin 
seems a good candidate for Raven also.  He really knew his DADA 
stuff.  This keeps making me wonder, though, why didn't Hermione get 
sorted into Raven?  Of course she's brave, but if any character is 
considered super-smart, it's her.  She aces everything, the other 
students consider her a brainiac, don't they?  She got McG's help 
getting the time-turner so she could take more classes because she's 
such an exceptional student.  I guess bravery is her dominating 
characteristic?  But, heck, Cho's in Raven, it would be hard to 
believe she's smarter than Hermione.  Maybe intellect is Cho's 
dominant quality.  Is that supposed to be how it works? 

Kelley




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 03:59:50 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:59:50 -0000
Subject: Something I noticed in PS/SS today...
Message-ID: <8qh9rm+kjtg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1934

I was rereading the end of PS/SS today and I notice a miniscule 
detail which I will now bore you with...

After Hermione leaves Harry to drink the potion and advance to the 
next room she was to get Ron and immediately send an owl to 
Dumbledore. Ok, so then Harry fights Quirrell, yadda, yadda, yadda 
and now we are at Harry and Dumbly's talk.  

"...I arrived in time to prevent that, although you were doing very 
well on your own, I must say."
"You got there?  You got Hermione's owl?"
"We must of crossed in midair.  No sooner had I reached London than 
it became clear to me that the place I shoule be was the one I had 
just left..."

Flash forward to Harry, Ron and Hermione's talk in the Hospital wing.

"...So what happened to you two?" said Harry.
"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round- 
that took awhile- and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact 
Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance-he already knew-he just 
said, 'Harry's gon after him hasn't he?' and hurtled off to the third 
floor..."


ARGH! This is now offically driving me crazy.  Dumbly has just told 
Harry that he will not lie to him. He doesn't specfically say that he 
got he Hermione's owl but it is certainly Implied.  However Hermione 
never sends the owl so who does, or how does he find out?????


Scott






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 04:03:29 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 04:03:29 -0000
Subject: Lily's House
In-Reply-To: <8qh983+qhdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qha2h+oimb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1935

I've always pictured Lily as in Hufflepuff.  I'm not really sure why 
but probably since she did show a lot of loyalty to Harry and to her 
family on the ill fated night of her death.  

Scott




> 
> I think so too, Amanda.  We know she must have been brave to face 
> Vold and protect Harry.  But, I can't help thinking it's been 
> mentioned more that she was quite smart.  





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 04:26:05 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 04:26:05 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Envy (long)
In-Reply-To: <39C6D61A.160B2006@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qhbct+qe7o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1936

I love the 7 deadly sins category.....

Not too much on lust, yet.....

in one of the books, Harry says that it's very hard not to
envy Ron when he sees his house and family....

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 04:55:55 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 04:55:55 -0000
Subject: POLL: Early Reading Influences
In-Reply-To: <8qglsj+h885@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qhd4r+hqrd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1937

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Vicki Merriman" <vjmerri at i...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I wasn't sure which way to jump on this poll and finally went 
> > with "read to by parents."  My parents read bedtime stories when 
I 
> > was small, but didn't do much reading to me or my sister aside 
from 
> > that.
> 
>  (snip)
>  
> >I DEFINITELY think that I developed 
> > a love of books from my parents.  Sort of a combination of being 
> read 
> > to while quite small but also from the example they set.  In our 
> > house, people read, if that explanation makes sense.
> 
> 
Interesting poll. 

I am a voracious reader, my house is crammed with thousands of books, 
and both my ex husband and current partner are the same. At three, my 
son is already sounding out words, and starting to read. 

My parents read to me until I could read myself but not after that.
I read everything I could lay my hands on, I tried to read all the 
books starting with A, and I loved biography and history. In first 
grade, I was tested at a sixth grade reading level, but can't 
remember the rest of my tests.

Susan




> I kow I was read to when I was pre-kindergarten - but I DON'T
> REMEMBER IT.  Primarily by my mother, who read a lot.  But once I 
> learned to read in first grade, I outpaced everyone else in my 
class; 
> and after proving my ability in the different school I went to in 
> second grade, got special dispensation (when the 1st and 2nd 
graders 
> were restricted to a limited section of the school library with the 
> 'early readers' books) to be able to go to the section open for all 
> older students - I still remember trying to phonetically pronounce 
> 'rendezvous' in English, from a 6th grade-level 'future of space 
> flight' book (when there was still a possibility that the Gemini 
> capsules would land on the ground with a Rogallo Wing parachute 
> instead of water splashdowns)..... 
> 
> And speaking of space flight - a moment of silence please in honor 
of 
> the second human in space, Gherman Titov, who had been the last 
> survivor of the four men, two US and two Russian, of the 1961 space 
> flights..... 
> 
> I read _The Martian Chronicles_ in third grade.
> 
> Anyway - and then I won a 'number of books read' contest in 7th 
grade.
> But I didn't read Narnia till I was in college and my fiance told 
me 
> what I had missed; although I read LOTR as a freshman in high 
school 
> and loved it.  (Didn't read _Peter Pan_ until I was in college 
> either).  And I have only ever read the first Oz book.  I didn't 
read 
> any Raggedy Anne's until I was in my thirties!  (Of course they had 
> been out of print for a while by then).
> 
> -Brooks




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 04:59:09 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 04:59:09 -0000
Subject: Joy of HP on Audio
In-Reply-To: <39CBCD8B.B3ACAF5D@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qhdat+ukt6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1938

I third or fourth the motion --- Jim Dale's rendition of HP is
absolutely wonderful -- he learned 99 new voices for this?
It's extraordinary........

One of the few things I don't like is his Voldemort voice -- but pure 
evil is always tough without caricature.......

I can't stop listening to them......makes my commute a delight....




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 06:01:37 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:01:37 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew in Slytherin?
In-Reply-To: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qhh01+id4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1939


> There is good evidence, IMO, to put all of the Marauders as well as 
> Lily in Gryffindor. Pettigrew might be considered evil and seem a 
> likely candidate for Slytherin, but think about the reasons he 
turned  evil.  The defining characteristic of Slytherins is strong 
ambition, which can often lead to evil.  But Wormtail turned evil out 
of fear,  not out of ambition.  But while his cowardice might seem to 
rule him out of Gryffindor as well, he does show some occasional 
sparks of bravery.  When I mentioned my opinions on this subject 
before, someone mentioned that it would have taken physical courage 
for Pettigrew to cut off his hand for Voldermort.  There his also his 
 attacking Draco on the train in PS when he was bothering Harry.  
This scene, when considered in light of Scabbers being revealed as 
> Pettigrew, raises all sorts of interesting questions on Pettigrew's 
> motivation for doing that: was it out of some grudge against 
Draco's father from when they were Death Eaters, or a manifestation 
of a last shred of loyalty to James?

It's Goyle he attacks, not Draco, isn't it? Not that that affects the 
argument much either way. I'd be surprised if it turned out that all 
the Marauders, including Pettigrew, weren't in Gryffindor. I can't 
take Hagrid's assertion that there was never a wizard that went bad 
that wasn't in Slytherin at face value, any more than I can take the 
assertion that Snape wants the Defense Against the Dark Arts position 
as gospel. (JKR has often said she's a fan of Jane Austen, and in 
Austen's books it's never safe to take hearsay at face value.)
Pettigrew seems neither ambitious nor clever enough to be in 
Slytherin -- he's neither a manipulator nor a careerist, really, just 
out to save his own skin.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Sep 23 06:09:28 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:09:28 -0000
Subject: Semi-Colons & John Grisham 
Message-ID: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1940

I'm sure we all know folks who - without having read any of the 
books - dismiss the Harry Potter series as children books. (A Muggles 
co-worker told me that she "knew" that Harry Potter was written at a 
first-grade level so American children can read the story without 
help). Meanwhile, my adult friends demonstrate their *gravitas* by 
reading the ouevre of John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall and Tom Clancy.

Now, I'm sure JK Rowling will never include a sex scene to equal the 
stunning prose of Grisham, but aside from that, Rowling is in every 
respect stylistically more complex than her best-selling compatriots. 
Just one example: I've skimmed through several volumes of Grisham, 
Cornwall in search of a semi-colon.  I've yet to find one.  Grisham 
and Cornwall write a tedious series of short, declarative sentences 
that might(ignoring content) fit right in to The Weekly Reader or The 
Berenstein Bears. Rowling OTOH rejoices in the beauty of the English 
language, and fully exploits its dramatic potential in her dialogue - 
take any page at random in any of her books, and we find an array 
ofhyphens, ellipses and semi-colons. That in itself does not make a 
writer superior, yet I  think anyone who compares Rowling with the 
aforementioned authors can only agree that she has created by far the 
more morally complex and ambiguous universe, as compared to the 
simplistic good guys/bad guys of The Firm (The protagonists in 
Grisham are forever evading their adult responsiblities, and the 
author clearly expects us to accordingly applaud them when they 
finally escape them - when has Harry given into doubt, and refused 
the duties Destiny has thrust upon him?)

 A cartoonist in The Washington Post recently had a child exclaim "Do 
you doubt the superiority of childhood to maturity? Kids are reading 
the dense, multi-volume Harry Potter adeventures. Adults are reading 
Who Moved My Cheese," a vapid fable of money-grubbing managerial 
mice!"

    - CMC
. 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 23 06:36:23 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:36:23 -0000
Subject: The cause of Neville 's poor memory--theory
In-Reply-To: <8qans6+9ht9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qhj17+66fb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1941

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Neville has a notoriously poor memory. Could he be under a powerful 
> Memory Charm? In GoF, we find out that Neville's parents were 
> attacked by Death Eaters. First, his father was put under the 
> Cruciatus Curse, then his mother. I believe Dumbledore said that 
the 
> attack on the Longbottoms occurred long after V.'s disappearance. 
Did 
> a two year old Neville witness this? And if he did, did his well-
> meaning Grandmother put a Memory Charm on him to help him forget, 
but 
> also managed to mess up his memory in general? Afterall, two year 
> olds can be scared by scary movies, sounds and people.

Milz--  I know this was practically 200 posts ago, but I've really 
been wanting to comment here.  I think this is a great idea.  He gets 
so shaken up about the Cruciatus curse, it sure seems like he might 
have witnessed it being performed on his parents.  If he didn't see 
it, someone must have told him about it in graphic detail.  And, I 
can certainly imagine his grandmother using a memory charm on him so 
he doesn't have to live with those memories every day.  But, when he 
was in class and gave the Cruciatus curse answer, he sure seemed to 
have some memories of something.  And, I looked in GoF, and Dumble 
just says the attacks on the Longbottoms occurred after Vold's 
downfall.  I couldn't find any other clues about when this might have 
happened.  Well, no question Neville will figure more prominently in 
the future, guess we'll learn his story then.

Kelley 




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 06:42:59 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:42:59 -0000
Subject: Whiny Children (OT)
In-Reply-To: <39CC1299.1005FAED@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qhjdj+ntf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1942

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> > But I guess that is why I am an evil Joywitch, the kind
> > that boils little children in her black cauldron when the little
> > whiners wander into her cave.
> 
> Do you have an established source for whiners, or would you like 
one of
> mine? I'll throw in some mesquite chips....
> 
> --Amanda, who's had a *really* hard day with the 5-year-old 
attitude with
> feet

Just tell your little darling to keep whining and Joywitch will send 
her pet ogre to take Junior on a little trip.  

[Seriously, my sympathies, Amanda, its a tough job youve got.  When I 
was a kid I decided that when I grew up and had kids of my own I 
would let them do whatever they wanted.  Then I grew up.  I spent 
some time taking care of (other peoples) kids, and decided that if I 
had kids of my own I would send them to military school by age 3.  
Its probably a good thing that I dont have kids, huh?  (except for 
the ones in the cauldron, of course.)]

--Joywitch




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 23 08:01:50 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 08:01:50 -0000
Subject: OT: Garment Shop
In-Reply-To: <39CB407E.3072AA32@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qho1e+jfua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1943

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Well, yes, it was horribly expensive, and I was rather appalled at 
myself for doing it.  But I saw the cloak at the Renaissance Festival 
and thought about it, hard, for a month.  One of the things I liked 
about it is that it isn't lined with acetate, which in my experience, 
just rips out of coats.
> I've had to replace my last three winter coats because the lining 
ripped out (we wear our winter coats HARD in Minnesota).  I figured 
if I am replacing a $100 - $150 coat every two to three winters, I 
could get something for $350.00 that might last ten to fifteen 
years.  Finally, one night I had a dream about it, and that decided 
me.  If I was dreaming about it, I had to have it.

Well, goodness, for all the use you'll get from your cloak, it's 
seems like a wise investment for you.  Living in Minnesota, you'll 
get to wear it, what? Eight months a year? ;o] 

> So I went back to get it.  They have the cloaks in all sorts of 
colors (see the website), but I got mine in black.  I absolutely feel 
like a wizard when I wear it.  It's extremely heavy, and so 
voluminous that I can wrap it around both my kids when we're waiting 
for the bus together.

I bet it's beautiful.  I did go to the website, they have some 
absolutely lovely pieces.  I'd love to have one myslef, but for where 
I live, that would be a frivolous purchase to the nth degree.  Our 
winters here have been surprisingly warm the last several years.  In 
Jan. '85 we got about a foot and a half of snow, and it's still 
talked about as "our big snow storm". <G>  Maybe by the end of Oct. 
our leaves will start to turn.

> 
> No dry cleaning--you want to preserve the lanolin in the wool.  If 
something gets on it, you just blast it with a garden hose and then 
let it dry.
> 
> Peg

The garden hose?  Really?  LOL!  That's great!  I would so love to 
see lots of people out and about dressed in cloaks.  Pre-HP, I 
probably would have felt like Vernon Dursley at the beginning of SS.  
Now, however, I'd want to join in.

Kelley




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 23 09:15:40 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:15:40 +0100
Subject: OT: Garment Shop
Message-ID: <39CC74BC.F9AA9669@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1944


This site does seem a little pricey, though the garments look quite
substantial. 

Mainly if I want clothing like this I tend to shop at pagan and magical
events where inevitably there are stalls and a few folk producing
cloaks, robes and 'fantasy' clothing at fairly modest prices. Often
willing to take commissions if nothing suitable.  

The Renaissance Fair people do have a guide to a number of suitable
commercial cloak patterns, which can be found on:

http://www.renfaire.com/Costume/cloak.html



Vivienne




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sat Sep 23 12:00:58 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:00:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ear differences from Jim Dale's audio tapes
References: <8qgl17+kkf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000923130058.4FD.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1945

On 22.09.2000 at 22:04:23 Brooks R wrote:

>Actually Vicki, I meant to listen to yours again Real Soon Now.  I 
>(who tend to have a pretty good ear for sounds if I can get them 
>isolated) think that the other day, when I was listening to your 
>tapes, I was hearing a diphthong as someone mentioned earlier.  I 
>could almost imagine he was saying it as a slurred "Her-My-Owe-Nee" 
>instead of "Her-MAH-Nee" - as if it was "Her Mya Nee".   

Actually, that is consistent with the phonetic shift from British to
American English, but please don't ask me to elaborate. I threw out
my Phonetics notes the day after my graduation and don't remember
anything else. ;-)

I just finished listening to PS read by Stephen Fry and loved the way
he does it.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sat Sep 23 12:00:58 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:00:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Something I noticed in PS/SS today...
References: <8qh9rm+kjtg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000923130058.11DA.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1946

On 23.09.2000 at 03:59:50 Scott  wrote:

>ARGH! This is now offically driving me crazy.  Dumbly has just told 
>Harry that he will not lie to him. He doesn't specfically say that
>he 
>got he Hermione's owl but it is certainly Implied.  However Hermione 
>never sends the owl so who does, or how does he find out?????

Dumbledore arrives in London and discovers that nobody there actually
asked for him. Of course he figures out immediately that it was a
scam to lure him away from Hogwarts. So he turns on his heel and
rushes back. Then Harry asked him if he got Hermione's owl.
Dumbledore didn't get an owl, but assumes that Hermione sent one
because he had no chance to check with her and there was no need for
her to tell him, because he already knew why they needed him.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sat Sep 23 12:00:58 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:00:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 1947


If you take a close look at it, the Sorting is a very fishy thing.
For all we know Hermione would have made a good Ravenclaw and Neville
would have been quite comfortable in Hufflepuff. I think they all
ended up in Gryffindor because inter-house friendships are very rare.
For the same reason I believe the Marauders were all in the same
house. Maybe Lily was in a different house, probably Ravenclaw,
because she doesn't seem to have had a major part in the Marauder's
school adventures. Percy's friend Penelope Clearwater is also from a
different house, but they share being prefects. 

Speaking of Percy, he would have made a good example for a non-evil
Slytherin. Is anybody else getting tired of their portrayal? There
must be some decent people in the house.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep 23 11:41:17 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:41:17 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <000a01c02553$30ba4180$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1948

<If you take a close look at it, the Sorting is a very fishy thing.
For all we know Hermione would have made a good Ravenclaw and Neville
would have been quite comfortable in Hufflepuff. I think they all
ended up in Gryffindor because inter-house friendships are very rare.
For the same reason I believe the Marauders were all in the same
house. Maybe Lily was in a different house, probably Ravenclaw,
because she doesn't seem to have had a major part in the Marauder's
school adventures. Percy's friend Penelope Clearwater is also from a
different house, but they share being prefects.>

Of my two favorite fan portrayals of Lily, one had her as a Slytherin (yes,
there was a logical explanation for why a Muggle-born would be in a
supposedly anti-Muggle House), the other as a Hufflepuff. I sort of liked
the Slytherin one more, but in both cases the Marauders really weren't
following the 'Inter-House friendships only' rule. The first story is Cub
Scout by Moon, the second is all the fanfiction by Kay Willow.

~Firebolt




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 12:41:56 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:41:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbly's title...
Message-ID: <8qi8ek+brdv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1949

I thought this was interesting (to me at least).  Anywho, this is the 
title given for Dumbledore 's title on Harry's Hogwarts school letter 
in PS/SS....

Headmaster: ALBUS DUMBLEDORE
(Order of Merlin, First class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme 
Mugwump, International Confed. of Wizwards)

...Hmmm, most these are pretty self- expalatory except for 
Mugwump...Any Ideas what this could be?

Scott




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 13:16:18 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:16:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] abbreviations...
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c02560$7703cdc0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1950

Help.  A new abbreviation!  Grins...


Rowling OTOH rejoices 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Sat Sep 23 14:21:56 2000
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (Brian )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:21:56 -0000
Subject: Clandestined meetings
Message-ID: <8qiea4+sqv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1951

Hello all,
  This just hit me this morning as I was listening to SS in the car 
on the way to work.  I was at the part where the students are 
boarding the train for their first trip to Hogwarts.  Now, I've read 
each book twice and listened to the first 2 books on CD several 
times. But when I got the parts this morning where Ron and Harry 
first meet and where they both meet Hermione, it made me feel like I 
was witnessing one of those clandestined moments.  Anyway, I was just 
wonder if any of you have had a similar experiance.
                                                 Brian




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Sep 23 14:32:53 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:32:53 +0100
Subject: Mugwump and test
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEKPCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 1952

Scott Wrote: "I thought this was interesting (to me at least).  Anywho, this
is the title given for Dumbledore 's title on Harry's Hogwarts school letter
in PS/SS....

Headmaster: ALBUS DUMBLEDORE
(Order of Merlin, First class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme Mugwump,
International Confed. of Wizwards)

...Hmmm, most these are pretty self- expalatory except for Mugwump...Any
Ideas what this could be?"

Mugwump - Jocular term for a great man. What Hagrid calls him all the time!

This came up in Yahoo message 1755 and a few messages leading from that
discuss the use of chief warlock (message in a similar area with titles like
warlock, wizard and mugwump).

Simon

PS: This is a test since I sent two messages yesterday to different e-groups
and neither has arrived yet!




From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep 23 15:14:02 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:14:02 -0500
Subject: Ex's
References: <969684974.23650@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CCC8BB.7B3816B9@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1953

> Partially because, in my experience, there is no jerk in 
> the world as jerky as the jerk you used to be in love with; also 
> because ex-spouse bashing is a lot more socially acceptable (and 
> understandable) than bashing of a random person who you just dont 
> like.

Have to say I'm the exception, almost unnaturally so.  My ex and i
talked on phone at least weekly after she moved to a different state, so
that I could stay in touch with my son (who spent summers with me - we
thought the schools were better in Virginia than Indiana, else he might
have stayed with me during school year) - and lately, our discussion,
when not about Alan, have been about Harry Potter, and book banning, and
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and X-Men, and Unitarianism, and who's read
what lately, and her dog Krypto's death (but her cat Streaky is still
going strong:  toothless, deaf, and sedentary for most part, she still
put the new dog in its place within two days!)  

We get along so well I once dreamed that we appeared on a Jerry
Springer-like show and everybody thought we were fakes, because no one
could believe we got on so well.


My son's opinion of HP is kind of interesting, in that he is such a
voracious F&SF reader that he liked them just fine, but they don't stand
out head and shoulders above a lot of his other recent reading, to him. 
He was complaining that the one William Gibson book his Science Fiction
Literature teacher assigned was one *without* slam-bang action, when
Gibson was such a good action writer.  And he agreed with me that _On
the Beach_ was rather silly.

-Brooks
You might be a candidate for Jerry Springer if......you let your 12 year
old daughter smoke at the dinner table in front of her kids.



From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep 23 16:10:29 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:10:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] abbreviations...
In-Reply-To: <003c01c02560$7703cdc0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEKLCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1954

OTOH = On The Other Hand




======================================================
When I am an Evil Overlord....
#218. I will not pick up a glowing ancient artifact
and shout "Its power is now mine!!!" Instead I will
grab some tongs, transfer it to a hazardous materials
container, and transport it back to my lab for study.
======================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Denise [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 6:16 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] abbreviations...



Help.  A new abbreviation!  Grins...


Rowling OTOH rejoices



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 16:15:25 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:15:25 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <OE3A91E9GQvnbEG10Ga00000454@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1955

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
> I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy 
buddies who care for each other very much 

I very much doubt that Snape and Dumbledore are a couple, because 
Snape (whom, we all know, doesn't bother to conceal his feelings) 
is never seen fawning on Dumbledore. He is, however, often seen 
fawning on Draco (which is the S/D I could believe in). We don't 
really know why Snape makes such a pet of Draco, whether simply 
because he is a Slytherin who is good at Potions, or in order to 
curry favor with Lucius, or because he hates Harry, or my friend Lee 
urged me to write an S/D to explain this favoritism. I believe that 
is not a complete explanation: Draco is a handsome blond, but when he 
first arrives at school, he is *only eleven* -- not hardly grown 
enough to fall in love with him for  his looks! Except, since he 
looks like little Lucius, if it were a side-effect of being in love 
with Lucius.

For political correctness, I don't want to make Snape gay, because he 
is such a nasty guy, a bad image, but for literary correctness, his 
nastiness could result ffrom his bitterness and his bitterness COULD 
result from being a gay person with intense internalized homophobia 
-- while the variant of the Snape-loved-James theory that attributes 
Snape's hostility to James having rebuffed Snape's tentative and 
inept advances is just fine, another variant attributes Snape's 
hostility to James making him feel lusts that he is trying very hard 
not to feel. An affair with Draco (a few years ahead, when Draco is 
older) might turn both of them into nicer people.

Mention has been made of the fanfic 'Draco Dormiens', which I enjoyed 
very much. The author not only came up with an unusually plausible 
way to turn Draco to the Light Side, but the reformed Draco (the 
characters are all age 16 in this story) is, if not the sexiest thing 
on two legs, at any rate sexier than anyone under the age of consent 
(which is 18 here is California) has any right to be. Blond good 
looks, vicious tongue, strong ability to conceal his true emotions, 
and far more insight into what make people tick psychologically 
than *I* had at 16! Are any of the older 'girls' on this list
reminded of Ilya Kuryakin?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 16:21:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:21:26 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000921163704.028c5680@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8qila6+oige@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1956

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> At 04:40 PM 9/21/00 +0000, milz wrote:
> >As for Salazar Slytherin, he split from the group over
> >disagreements with Muggle-borns being admitted to Hogwarts. I 
> >don't think you can call that "evil" per se...
> 
> But he *did* put the killer Basillisk in the Chamber of Secrets --
> *That* was evil!

I think he built the Chamber of Secrets and put the Basilisk in it 
AFTER he fell out with the other Founders about admitting 
Muggle-borns, and BEFORE the other Founders got rid of him 
(killed him? caged him up at the bottom of the lake until Harry finds 
him in a future book? kicked him 1000-odd years into the future where 
he found that young Tom Riddle was a perfect servant? moved his mind 
into Tom Riddle's body at some point in the immortality spells that 
made Riddle/Voldemort's body no longer human?)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 16:25:44 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:25:44 -0000
Subject: Snape; AK in Harry's future?; AvEda Kedavra
In-Reply-To: <8qgnic+276v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qili8+gd48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1957

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:

> that SNAPE needs to be gotten drunk, some good shampoo, and to be 
> taken to a bordello, which might dramatically improve HIS attitude. 
 
Tim told me that he saw a cartoon of Snape with his hair frizzed out 
and up a yard around like Medusa's snakes ('like a cross between 
Albert Einstein and Phyllis Diller, but frizzy'), saying "Aren't you 
glad that I don't wash my hair more often?'




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 16:30:47 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:30:47 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Envy (long)
In-Reply-To: <8qhbct+qe7o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qilrn+gbh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1958

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:

> in one of the books, Harry says that it's very hard not to
> envy Ron when he sees his house and family....

My late mother used to distinguish between envy and jealousy as 
follows: Envy is seeing that someone else has something nice and 
wanting to have the same thing, and Jealousy is seeing that someone 
else has something and wishing they didn't have it. 




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 23 16:36:02 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:36:02 -0000
Subject: Dirty Harry
Message-ID: <8qim5i+tere@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1959

Harry, Ron, and Hermione do not have their wands when they encounter 
Malfoy and his two brainless bodyguards. Seeing vulnerability he 
starts to threaten and insult them. Harry calmly walks forward until 
he's just inches from Malfoy's face and with an air of quite 
confidence says:
"When we were in the first year you challenged me to a wizard's duel, 
but you never showed up Malfoy. Let's finish it, right here right 
now."
Malfoy was so surprised by this remark he didn't say anything.
"Why do you hesitate Malfoy, it's a perfect time for you, I'm 
completely defenseless. Well 
, not completely, because you see,
SOME CURSES NEED NO WAND, or hasn't your little buddy Tommy Riddle 
taughtyou that yet."
Looking even paler than normal Malfoy said "You're bluffing".
In a low menacing voice Harry growled "Well maybe I am and maybe I'm 
not, but seeing as how I'm talking about the guillotinious curse, one 
of the most powerful in the world that would slice your head clean 
off you have to ask yourself one question. Do you feel lucky today?"
Malfoy, his eyes the size of saucers was speechless. With a evil grin 
on his face that made him look just a bit insane Harry leaned even 
closer, looked him straight in the eye, and whispered very 
slowly "Well do you punk?"
Paralyzed with indecision Malfoy looked down at his wand just inches 
from his trembling hand. Then in a voice so loud it almost sounded 
like it had been magically amplified Harry shouted into Malfoy's ear
"DO IT! MAKE MY DAY!"  
Malfoy staggered back his ears ringing with pain, and then without 
another word he turned around and walked away.

As she watched them go Hermione muttered under her breath
"Dirty Harry".
"What?" said Ron in surprise "Harry's not dirty."
"Brilliant!" Said Hermione "You really should get an Oscar for that 
Harry"
"Who's Oscar?" said Ron.
"Thanks Hermione" said Harry quietly still looking at Malfoy's 
back "If this wizard thing doesn't work out maybe I could get a job 
with Mr. Eastwood".
"Will somebody please tell me who Oscar Eastwood is!" Said Ron 
getting exasperated.
"Clint" said Harry in a monotone, his attention still on the tiny 
figure of Malfoy retreating in the distance.
"What!?" said Ron now completely confused.
Then Hermione and Harry started to laugh.
"Huh?" said Ron "What's funny?" But they were laughing too hard to 
answer.
Ron looked at one then the other and shook his head "You've both gone 
mental"   
 





From lrcjestes at msn.com  Sat Sep 23 16:48:28 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:48:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco fanfic
References: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c0257e$27911360$5e43ddcf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 1960


> Mention has been made of the fanfic 'Draco Dormiens', which I enjoyed
> very much. The author not only came up with an unusually plausible
> way to turn Draco to the Light Side, but the reformed Draco (the
> characters are all age 16 in this story) is, if not the sexiest thing
> on two legs, at any rate sexier than anyone under the age of consent
> (which is 18 here is California) has any right to be. Blond good
> looks, vicious tongue, strong ability to conceal his true emotions,
> and far more insight into what make people tick psychologically
> than *I* had at 16! Are any of the older 'girls' on this list
> reminded of Ilya Kuryakin?

I'll second this description of this fic. I generally avoid Draco fics...as
I don't want to waste time reading about someone I think is slime...I avoid
Snape fics as well because of this, but I got hooked on this fic yesterday
(I've been meaning to write a review or comment on the PoU list as the story
has come up there as well).....well, I read all 11 parts yesterday, ignored
the kids and the dinner and the dishes....and I might go reread it today.
Its well written and as Rita said a rather plausible way of turning Draco
into a sexy good guy....you almost want Hermione to end up with him....never
thought I'd say that!

Great job cassandra....and I'm headed to ff.net to read the sequel.

carole






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 16:50:35 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:50:35 -0000
Subject: Dumbly's title...
In-Reply-To: <8qi8ek+brdv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qin0r+88gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1961

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Headmaster: ALBUS DUMBLEDORE
> (Order of Merlin, First class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme 
> Mugwump, International Confed. of Wizards)
> 
> ...Hmmm, most these are pretty self- explanatory except for 
> Mugwump...Any Ideas what this could be?

In this context, 'mugwump' means 'big shot'. 

In the first half of the Nineteenth Century in USA, there was a 
political secret society named The Indian Lodge of Chief Mugwump 
whose agenda was to compromise the slavery/abolition question. A 
famous cartoonist at the time drew a cartoon with the caption: "It's 
a Mugwump: his Mug on one side of the fence and his Wump is on the 
other."  In elementary school I was taught that they were named for 
that cartoon, but later I learned that the cartoon was based on the 
name of their club. Tim just now looked in our 1987 Random House 
nabridged Dictionary and found that 'mugwump' in the name of the 
political club was based on the Algonquin Indian word for 'war 
chief': mugquomp, syncopated from muggum-quomp. 

I'm confused as to HOW MANY different titles are on that letterhead: 
that is, is Order of Merlin, First class, Grand Sorceror all one 
title and does Chief Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International 
Confederation of Wizards means Chief Warlock and Supreme Mugwump of 
the International Confederation of Wizards, and is the Supreme 
Mugwump of the Int'l Confederation of Wizards more like the 
Secretary-General of the UN, the President of USA, or the President 
of the Archaeological Institute of America or the American Chemical 
Society?

And what is WARLOCK? Dumbledore is Chief Warlock (of something), in 
PoA, a group of rowdy warlocks are getting at a table in The Three 
Broomsticks, etc. It's not just another word for male magic users: 
they are always called 'wizards'. Until JKR tells us, my current 
theory is that 'warlock' is M.P. -- an elected representative to the 
wizard parliament, which is called Warlocks' Convention: "Dragon 
breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709, everyone 
knows that." (quote from Ron in Book 1). I was always told that 
'warlock' originated as a Saxon word meaning 'oath breaker', which 
many people would say refers to campaign promises.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 17:00:02 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:00:02 -0000
Subject: Dirty Harry
In-Reply-To: <8qim5i+tere@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qinii+8479@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1962

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote [a VERY funny 
story]

ROTFLMAO!!! I'm sorry about wasting bandwidth and mailbox space on 
this nothing post, but stories like THAT deserve positive 
reinforcement!!!




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 23 17:07:44 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:07:44 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <8qio10+nlee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1963

Do you think Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7? Rowling has 
already said she doesn't plan to continue the series after 7 so at 
that point she really won't have any further use for him. I bet she 
bumps him off. She doesn't seem too squeamish to do so, when they 
make the movie of Goblet of Fire they'll have to tone down that 
ending or it'll get a R rating, or worse. She'll probably have him 
produce Harry Potter junior first, just in case, that way if she 
changes her mind in a decade or two she can still write about a 
magical little boy named Harry Potter. Arthur Conan Doyle didn't make 
any precautions when he killed off Sherlock Holmes and a few years 
later when he decided it was a big mistake he had to write an awkward 
saved by a miracle story. 

Would this be a good idea, should Harry Potter die? I think so, a 
tragic hero gives stories a grandeur they wouldn't otherwise have, at 
least that's what the ancient Greeks thought. I'll tell you one 
thing, somebody important is going to die, if it's not Harry then Ron 
is a dead man. 

I'm betting that in book 5 Sirius Black and Ron's dad the new 
Minister of Magic Arthur Weasley will die, in book 6, Neville 
Longbottom, and Dumbledore will die, Harry's owl will die too but 
Dumbledore gives Harry his Phoenix in his will. In book 7 I think 
Harry Potter will die, Voldamore too. Rowling has already said there 
will be more deaths and the next books might be even darker than 
Goblet of fire, and that's pretty dark.

      





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 17:09:09 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:09:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qila6+oige@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005501c02581$0d1eb8e0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1964




Good grief!  If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a plug/etc.. about Raistlin!



I think he built the Chamber of Secrets and put the Basilisk in it 
AFTER he fell out with the other Founders about admitting 
Muggle-borns, and BEFORE the other Founders got rid of him 
(killed him? caged him up at the bottom of the lake until Harry finds 
him in a future book? kicked him 1000-odd years into the future where 
he found that young Tom Riddle was a perfect servant? moved his mind 
into Tom Riddle's body at some point in the immortality spells that 
made Riddle/Voldemort's body no longer human?)


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 17:11:38 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:11:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dirty Harry
References: <8qim5i+tere@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006101c02581$580e1260$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1965

APPPPPPPPLLLLLLAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDDSSSSSS!  Lol.  Almost as good as bouncing ferrets!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 12:36 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dirty Harry



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  Harry, Ron, and Hermione do not have their wands when they encounter 
  Malfoy and his two brainless bodyguards. Seeing vulnerability he 
  starts to threaten and insult them. Harry calmly walks forward until 
  he's just inches from Malfoy's face and with an air of quite 
  confidence says:
  "When we were in the first year you challenged me to a wizard's duel, 
  but you never showed up Malfoy. Let's finish it, right here right 
  now."
  Malfoy was so surprised by this remark he didn't say anything.
  "Why do you hesitate Malfoy, it's a perfect time for you, I'm 
  completely defenseless. Well ., not completely, because you see,
  SOME CURSES NEED NO WAND, or hasn't your little buddy Tommy Riddle 
  taughtyou that yet."
  Looking even paler than normal Malfoy said "You're bluffing".
  In a low menacing voice Harry growled "Well maybe I am and maybe I'm 
  not, but seeing as how I'm talking about the guillotinious curse, one 
  of the most powerful in the world that would slice your head clean 
  off you have to ask yourself one question. Do you feel lucky today?"
  Malfoy, his eyes the size of saucers was speechless. With a evil grin 
  on his face that made him look just a bit insane Harry leaned even 
  closer, looked him straight in the eye, and whispered very 
  slowly "Well do you punk?"
  Paralyzed with indecision Malfoy looked down at his wand just inches 
  from his trembling hand. Then in a voice so loud it almost sounded 
  like it had been magically amplified Harry shouted into Malfoy's ear
  "DO IT! MAKE MY DAY!"  
  Malfoy staggered back his ears ringing with pain, and then without 
  another word he turned around and walked away.

  As she watched them go Hermione muttered under her breath
  "Dirty Harry".
  "What?" said Ron in surprise "Harry's not dirty."
  "Brilliant!" Said Hermione "You really should get an Oscar for that 
  Harry"
  "Who's Oscar?" said Ron.
  "Thanks Hermione" said Harry quietly still looking at Malfoy's 
  back "If this wizard thing doesn't work out maybe I could get a job 
  with Mr. Eastwood".
  "Will somebody please tell me who Oscar Eastwood is!" Said Ron 
  getting exasperated.
  "Clint" said Harry in a monotone, his attention still on the tiny 
  figure of Malfoy retreating in the distance.
  "What!?" said Ron now completely confused.
  Then Hermione and Harry started to laugh.
  "Huh?" said Ron "What's funny?" But they were laughing too hard to 
  answer.
  Ron looked at one then the other and shook his head "You've both gone 
  mental"   




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From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 23 17:21:28 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:21:28 -0000
Subject: Sorting
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1966

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
> 
> If you take a close look at it, the Sorting is a very fishy thing.
> For all we know Hermione would have made a good Ravenclaw and 
Neville
> would have been quite comfortable in Hufflepuff. I think they all
> ended up in Gryffindor because inter-house friendships are very 
rare.
> For the same reason I believe the Marauders were all in the same
> house. Maybe Lily was in a different house, probably Ravenclaw,
> because she doesn't seem to have had a major part in the Marauder's
> school adventures. Percy's friend Penelope Clearwater is also from a
> different house, but they share being prefects. 

I am convinced that the 4 Marauders were in Slytherin.  The major 
argument for this has been because of Hagrids statement about all the 
Voldy supporters coming from Slytherin, implying that Sirius Black 
was a Slytherin (since at that time everyone is convinced that SB is 
Voldys main man), and also the cultural patterns of friendship at 
Hogwarts indicate that if Sirius was a Slytherin then all of his 
Marauder friends were too.  But another argument for this is that it 
just seems like the sort of nasty little surprise JKR would love to 
spring on all of us, including Harry.  Cant you just hear Harry 
saying *My father was in Slytherin?*

-- Joywitch




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Sep 23 17:19:37 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:19:37 -0700
Subject: Snape's hair and Draco
Message-ID: <39CCE55E.772B2091@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1967

> that SNAPE needs to be gotten drunk, some good shampoo, and to be 
                 > taken to a bordello, which might dramatically improve
HIS attitude. 

                 Tim told me that he saw a cartoon of Snape with his
hair frizzed out 
                 and up a yard around like Medusa's snakes ('like a
cross between 
                 Albert Einstein and Phyllis Diller, but frizzy'),
saying "Aren't you 
                 glad that I don't wash my hair more often?'

Snape keeps his hair greased down so no one will notice the distinctive
widow's peak vampire hairline. Oh and of course he never drinks...wine. 
There is a good discussion of all the vampire clues over at the fandom site.
http://messageboard.fandom.com/harrypotter/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000563.html

Pippin



From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Sep 23 17:29:14 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:29:14 -0000
Subject: Dumbly's title...
In-Reply-To: <8qin0r+88gd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qip9a+e0bl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1968


> In this context, 'mugwump' means 'big shot'. 

Possibly. But the Lexicon Webster Dictionary (no connection to my 
website) defines it somewhat differently, and this may just be 
important. Here's what it says:


"mug-wump, n. (Algonquian mugquomp, leader) 

A Republican at the time of the presidential campaign of 1884 who 
refused to support the party nominee, James C. Blaine; 

any independent voter, who may or may not be a member of a regular 
party; 

one who espouses both sides of a controversial question; 

a fence-straddler; 

one with pretensions of political superiority."


There are some nuances here which might tell us something about the 
way JKR sees Dumbledore's character. Taken positively, it could 
suggest an open mind, or at least one who doesn't prejudge or jump to 
conclusions without all the facts. This certainly sounds like our 
man. There is an element of independence as well which we see in his 
allowing Moody to teach things which the Ministry didn't think 
appropriate (the curses). He lets Lupin come to Hogwarts and later 
hires him to teach, he gives Hagrid a second chance and eventually 
makes him a teacher as well, etc. Also, Dumbledore doesn't follow the 
accepted Ministry ideas or ways to do things, which is what makes him 
ultimately able to see what's happening and take steps to fight back. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon 




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Sep 23 17:54:42 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:54:42 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Semi-Colons & John Grisham 
In-Reply-To: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i0lpsskbp8q95rd6spteq97bu7uj056gra@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1969

On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:09:28 -0000, CMC wrote:

>yet I  think anyone who compares Rowling with the 
>aforementioned authors can only agree that she has created by far the 
>more morally complex and ambiguous universe, as compared to the 
>simplistic good guys/bad guys of The Firm (The protagonists in 
>Grisham are forever evading their adult responsiblities, and the 
>author clearly expects us to accordingly applaud them when they 
>finally escape them - when has Harry given into doubt, and refused 
>the duties Destiny has thrust upon him?)

I have to agree with you. After reading four books by Grisham (haven't
tried Patricia Cornwell or Tom Clancy so far) I got intensely bored.
Grisham's books all follow a repetitive pattern, there is always a
young, dynamic lawyer (of course goodlooking) fighting to get started
in his profession. Once you've read one Grisham, it seems you have
read them all. "A Time to Kill" nearly put me to sleep and I shouldn't
have finished it because it was a complete waste of time. I don't
think there would be anything to discuss that could keep a list like
the present one alive. Rowling's writing might not be very "literary"
in an academic sense, but it is vivid and keeps you interested from
the first to the last page. It's been a *very* long time since I have
read a book twice in only three months, and that has happenend with
all four HP books, even if I think the first is the weakest in the
series. And I think that Rowling's characters are much more complex; I
can't remember ever getting attached to one of Grisham's characters.

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Sep 23 18:30:16 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:30:16 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting
In-Reply-To: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com>
References: <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0srpss486058sm2dh7caa5c8qa333547st@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1970

On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:21:28 -0000, Joywitch wrote:

>I am convinced that the 4 Marauders were in Slytherin.  The major 
>argument for this has been because of Hagrids statement about all the 
>Voldy supporters coming from Slytherin, implying that Sirius Black 
>was a Slytherin (since at that time everyone is convinced that SB is 
>Voldys main man)

I cannot believe that Sirius was a Slytherin, the description the
Sorting Hat gives us (powerhungry, ambitious) just does not fit him.
And as Christina has said earlier, we haven't met any nice Slytherins
so far. To me they all look like a very unpleasant lot. 

And I don't think that Hagrid would have borrowed Sirius' motorbike if
he had been a Slytherin, do you? In my opinion Hagrid just doesn't
like Slytherins, after all he was in school with Tom Riddle, and it is
very improbable that he would have *comforted* a Slytherin. Remember
that this was what he did when he met Sirius at the Potter's house.

I cannot even see Wormtail in Slytherin because he is such a coward.

Just my 2 cents.

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 19:09:05 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:09:05 -0400
Subject: Flying.
References: <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <0srpss486058sm2dh7caa5c8qa333547st@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c02591$c18246c0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1971

This is a quote:  "... 
Harry followed Hagrid out onto the rock. The sky was quite clear now and the sea gleamed in the sunlight. The boat Uncle Vernon had hired was still there, with a lot of water in the bottom after the storm.

 

"How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around for another boat.

"Flew," said Hagrid.

 

"Flew?"

 

"Yeah -- but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter use magic now I've got yeh."

 

They settled down in the boat, Harry still staring at Hagrid, trying to imagine him flying..."



How exactly did Hagrid fly to the island?  Something like Mary Poppins?



(Perfect question for faqs folks, if it's a repeat...!)



Dee    





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From donnadr at gte.net  Sat Sep 23 19:13:59 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:13:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qio10+nlee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003301c02592$6e2a6920$1e66193f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 1972

I'm sorry, I disagree.  Seven years to become a wizard and then he dies?  No, I don't think so....I don't really think readers would react positively to that.  I know I wouldn't.

This is only IMO...

Donna Rae
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 1:07 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  Do you think Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7? Rowling has 
  already said she doesn't plan to continue the series after 7 so at 
  that point she really won't have any further use for him. I bet she 
  bumps him off. She doesn't seem too squeamish to do so, when they 
  make the movie of Goblet of Fire they'll have to tone down that 
  ending or it'll get a R rating, or worse. She'll probably have him 
  produce Harry Potter junior first, just in case, that way if she 
  changes her mind in a decade or two she can still write about a 
  magical little boy named Harry Potter. Arthur Conan Doyle didn't make 
  any precautions when he killed off Sherlock Holmes and a few years 
  later when he decided it was a big mistake he had to write an awkward 
  saved by a miracle story. 

  Would this be a good idea, should Harry Potter die? I think so, a 
  tragic hero gives stories a grandeur they wouldn't otherwise have, at 
  least that's what the ancient Greeks thought. I'll tell you one 
  thing, somebody important is going to die, if it's not Harry then Ron 
  is a dead man. 

  I'm betting that in book 5 Sirius Black and Ron's dad the new 
  Minister of Magic Arthur Weasley will die, in book 6, Neville 
  Longbottom, and Dumbledore will die, Harry's owl will die too but 
  Dumbledore gives Harry his Phoenix in his will. In book 7 I think 
  Harry Potter will die, Voldamore too. Rowling has already said there 
  will be more deaths and the next books might be even darker than 
  Goblet of fire, and that's pretty dark.

        



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  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep 23 19:32:53 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:32:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Something I noticed in PS/SS today...
References: <8qh9rm+kjtg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005401c02595$93bbff20$848e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1973


> I was rereading the end of PS/SS today and I notice a miniscule
> detail which I will now bore you with...
>
> After Hermione leaves Harry to drink the potion and advance to the
> next room she was to get Ron and immediately send an owl to
> Dumbledore. Ok, so then Harry fights Quirrell, yadda, yadda, yadda
> and now we are at Harry and Dumbly's talk.
>
> "...I arrived in time to prevent that, although you were doing very
> well on your own, I must say."
> "You got there?  You got Hermione's owl?"
> "We must of crossed in midair.  No sooner had I reached London than
> it became clear to me that the place I shoule be was the one I had
> just left..."
>
> Flash forward to Harry, Ron and Hermione's talk in the Hospital wing.
>
> "...So what happened to you two?" said Harry.
> "Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round-
> that took awhile- and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact
> Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance-he already knew-he just
> said, 'Harry's gon after him hasn't he?' and hurtled off to the third
> floor..."
>
>
> ARGH! This is now offically driving me crazy.  Dumbly has just told
> Harry that he will not lie to him. He doesn't specfically say that he
> got he Hermione's owl but it is certainly Implied.  However Hermione
> never sends the owl so who does, or how does he find out?????

Well, how he found out is a mystery.  My guess is that he got to the
Ministry, asked what they wanted him for, was told "we never sent for you,
what are you doing here?"
and realised someone wanted him out of the way at Hogwarts so rushed back.

The owl thing is far simpler to explain.  Dumbledore says nothing to
indicate that he ever got an owl from Hermione and Ron.  When Harry asks, he
says "we must have crossed in the air", indicating that he was already in
transit when the owl set off and it passed him without ever reaching him.  I
don't see any implication there that he got an owl.

(Yes I know HG and RW never sent one in the first place.  I was talking
hypothetically.  The point is, AD says nothing to indicate he received an
owl from Hogwarts.)

Jinx




From donnadr at gte.net  Sat Sep 23 19:18:40 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:18:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 1974

Hello, my name is Donna Rae and I'm new on the list.  So if this has already been discussed, forgive the post.  But...didn't the sorting hat suggest that Harry should be a Slytherin?

Donna Rae
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joywitch 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 1:21 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
  wrote:
  > 
  > If you take a close look at it, the Sorting is a very fishy thing.
  > For all we know Hermione would have made a good Ravenclaw and 
  Neville
  > would have been quite comfortable in Hufflepuff. I think they all
  > ended up in Gryffindor because inter-house friendships are very 
  rare.
  > For the same reason I believe the Marauders were all in the same
  > house. Maybe Lily was in a different house, probably Ravenclaw,
  > because she doesn't seem to have had a major part in the Marauder's
  > school adventures. Percy's friend Penelope Clearwater is also from a
  > different house, but they share being prefects. 

  I am convinced that the 4 Marauders were in Slytherin.  The major 
  argument for this has been because of Hagrids statement about all the 
  Voldy supporters coming from Slytherin, implying that Sirius Black 
  was a Slytherin (since at that time everyone is convinced that SB is 
  Voldys main man), and also the cultural patterns of friendship at 
  Hogwarts indicate that if Sirius was a Slytherin then all of his 
  Marauder friends were too.  But another argument for this is that it 
  just seems like the sort of nasty little surprise JKR would love to 
  spring on all of us, including Harry.  Cant you just hear Harry 
  saying *My father was in Slytherin?*

  -- Joywitch


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep 23 20:10:46 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:10:46 +0100
Subject: Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier>
Message-ID: <009101c0259a$5da59d60$848e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1975


> Hello, my name is Donna Rae and I'm new on the list.  So if this has
already been discussed, forgive the post.  But...didn't the sorting hat
suggest that Harry should be a Slytherin?

It did.  But Harry chose otherwise.  And there's been too much comparing of
Harry to James for them to be in different houses, and for that not to have
been mentioned.  I don't know, James just doesn't seem Slyth material to me,
he seems much more of a Gryff.  I do think Lily and James's houses will be
important, as there's been no mention of them yet.  But I think that all the
Marauders except Wormtail were probably in Gryff.  Lily may also have been
in a different house.  In fact, maybe she was a Slyth and that's why Voldy
said she didn't have to die.  Also if she was a Slyth, she'd have known
Snape quite well, giving weight to the Snape being in love with Lily theory.

It would also explain why the hat wanted to make Harry a Slyth, if his
mother was one, and he's inherited those qualities.  But if his father was a
Gryff, and Harry identified more with that side of himself, then that's why
the hat put that down as the next choice.

It'd make a great twist, wouldn't it?  Harry seeing the Slyths as the source
of all things evil, then finding out his mother was one.  Imagine the effect
on Harry.

An even better one would be to find out that Lily was not just a Slyth, but
a closet Death Eater, but the only evidence I can find for that is Voldy
saying she needn't have died...

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sat Sep 23 20:15:03 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:15:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flying.
References: <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <0srpss486058sm2dh7caa5c8qa333547st@4ax.com> <001f01c02591$c18246c0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <009601c0259a$f70587e0$848e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 1976


> This is a quote:  "...
> Harry followed Hagrid out onto the rock. The sky was quite clear now and
the sea gleamed in the sunlight. The boat Uncle Vernon had hired was still
there, with a lot of water in the bottom after the storm.
>
>
>
> "How did you get here?" Harry asked, looking around for another boat.
>
> "Flew," said Hagrid.
>
>
>
> "Flew?"
>
>
>
> "Yeah -- but we'll go back in this. Not s'pposed ter use magic now I've
got yeh."
>
>
>
> They settled down in the boat, Harry still staring at Hagrid, trying to
imagine him flying..."
>
>
>
> How exactly did Hagrid fly to the island?  Something like Mary Poppins?
>
>
>
> (Perfect question for faqs folks, if it's a repeat...!)

He could have apparated, but then I remembered that Hagrid isn't a full
wizard, so won't be allowed to do that (not legally at any rate).  Also no
evidence he had a broom with him.

Could be a pun on Floo powder but he never appeared in the fireplace, did
he?

Which leaves option D.  Buckbeak.  Hagrid flew over on Beaky, dismounted and
sent him back to Hogwarts.  It was during the night when he arrived so there
was plenty of time for the Hippogriff to fly there and back without
detection.  An Invisibility Charm may also have been used.

Jinx





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 20:21:51 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:21:51 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qio10+nlee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qj3cv+kkn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1977

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Do you think Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7? Rowling
has 
> already said she doesn't plan to continue the series after 7 so at 
> that point she really won't have any further use for him.

It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the 
prophecy, which everyone but him knows about, that the only way 
Voldemort can be killed (Voldemort CAN be killed, altho' evil will 
continue to exist) is if Harry (and it has to be Harry, not only 
because of his pedigree and horoscope, but all those parallelisms of 
both being orphans, both Parseltongues, V now containing H's blood, 
etc) dies in the act of killing him. Part of what makes it so 
literary is that it has overtones of the basic Christian story, which 
is of course one of the main archetypal stories in Western culture. 
Also, it would explain why Rowling has a fair degree of confidence 
that she is not going to write about Harry's life after Hogwarts.

It would also explain why Snape is determined to keep Harry alive 
despite hating Harry. Snape clearly has no desire to protect Harry 
from humiliation, hurt feelings, bad grades, and so on, but 
repeatedly protects him from death. Of course at the end of Book 1 it 
is revealed that Snape was taking the curse off Harry's broomstick, 
not putting it on. In Book 3, Snape rakes him over the coals for 
having sneaked out to Hogmeade. Snape does so with anger and hatred 
and gives the appearance that his motive is spite, but he's really 
the saying the same thing as Lupin: Is going out to drink butterbeer 
worth getting killed for, and disappointing all the people who are 
trying to keep you alive? Snape is one the people trying to keep 
Harry alive, not for any fondness for Harry, but for the sake of 
getting Voldemort killed.







From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep 23 20:24:29 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:24:29 -0500
Subject: Order of Merlin
References: <969737410.2032@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD1182.2D368177@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1978

It seems pretty clear from two other things that Order of Merlin is some
kind of (British) Wizard award, probably like the George Cross for
extrordinary heroism by a civilian.  (As opposed to Victoria's Cross
which is for extraoridinary heroism by a British military person).

*Pettigrew got one posthumously for trying to arrest Sirius

*Fudge told Snape he ought to expect at least a Second Class for
actually capturing Sirius.

The US has no military awards that are broken into classes like that;
the British have few if any; but  at least the Chinese, French, Russian,
Japanese and WWII Germans had classes of awards.  I don't know if there
were classes of Iron Cross in WWI, or the Franco-Prussian War.

I have therefore presumed that Dumbledore has his OM1C for the defeat of Grindelwald.

-Brooks



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 20:27:36 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:27:36 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <005501c02581$0d1eb8e0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qj3no+fu7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1979

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
 
> Good grief!  If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a plug/etc..
> about Raistlin!

Okay, I'll bite. What is Raistlin?




From donnadr at gte.net  Sat Sep 23 20:22:23 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:22:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier> <009101c0259a$5da59d60$848e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <007801c0259b$fc434700$1e66193f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 1980

Boy, you guys have really discussed this one.  I wasn't even aware that we didn't know the houses that James and Lily were in.  I've only read the series once, I should probably reread it again.  I think I'll read through the archives a little also to catch up.

This is a great list.  I know I'm going to learn a lot.

Donna Rae
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jinx 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 4:10 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  



  > Hello, my name is Donna Rae and I'm new on the list.  So if this has
  already been discussed, forgive the post.  But...didn't the sorting hat
  suggest that Harry should be a Slytherin?

  It did.  But Harry chose otherwise.  And there's been too much comparing of
  Harry to James for them to be in different houses, and for that not to have
  been mentioned.  I don't know, James just doesn't seem Slyth material to me,
  he seems much more of a Gryff.  I do think Lily and James's houses will be
  important, as there's been no mention of them yet.  But I think that all the
  Marauders except Wormtail were probably in Gryff.  Lily may also have been
  in a different house.  In fact, maybe she was a Slyth and that's why Voldy
  said she didn't have to die.  Also if she was a Slyth, she'd have known
  Snape quite well, giving weight to the Snape being in love with Lily theory.

  It would also explain why the hat wanted to make Harry a Slyth, if his
  mother was one, and he's inherited those qualities.  But if his father was a
  Gryff, and Harry identified more with that side of himself, then that's why
  the hat put that down as the next choice.

  It'd make a great twist, wouldn't it?  Harry seeing the Slyths as the source
  of all things evil, then finding out his mother was one.  Imagine the effect
  on Harry.

  An even better one would be to find out that Lily was not just a Slyth, but
  a closet Death Eater, but the only evidence I can find for that is Voldy
  saying she needn't have died...

  Jinx


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 23 20:36:30 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:36:30 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qj3cv+kkn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qj48e+n8v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1981

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the 
> prophecy, which all the Old Gang knows about but he doesn't, that 
> the only way Voldemort can be killed is if Harry dies in the act of
> killing him.

If my brain were working, I would included this in the big post, 
instead of of burdening everyone with two posts:

We can guess how Snape feels about having to keep Harry alive long 
enough for Harry to die killing Voldemort -- resentful of having to 
keep Harry alive, and unreservedly eager for that final double death.

But how do the good guys such as Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lupin, Black 
feel about raising up the child in their care, who also is the image 
of James whom they all loved, to be a real good kid of whom they're 
proud, all the time knowing that they're going to send him to die 
like a turkey at Thanksgiving (or, I guess, a goose at Xmas for the 
Brits)? 




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep 23 20:47:33 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:47:33 +0200
Subject: Raistlin
References: <8qj3no+fu7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006801c0259f$8055ac60$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 1982

<Okay, I'll bite. What is Raistlin?>

He's an extremely powerful wizard/sorcerer, who lets his younger brother
Caimon (a nice, but none too brainy warrior type) 'protect him' (not that he
needs it) because he's become rather frail from his magic. He is also an
anti-hero to the extreme. He's a character from Tracy Hickman and Margaret
Weis's Dragonlance series, and gets mentioned once in the same author team's
Death Gate Cycle.

To anyone else who's read those books, I read them only once a few years
back...do I have my facts straight?

~Firebolt




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Sep 23 21:25:53 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:25:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <003301c02592$6e2a6920$1e66193f@donnadozier>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEELCCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1983


In the usual sort of legendary tales, the hero with magical power ends up
more-or-less like Dumbledore -- the wise old man who appears to be a
doddering old fool, but is actually more powerful than everyone else.  I
rather think Harry will fall into this category, but of course he has
decades more experience to acquire.  If Dumbledore dies and leaves Harry to
carry on in his place (not as Headmaster, but as the Lord of the Wizards), I
would expect that Harry would drop out of the mainstream of life for years,
spending time learning from other old masters.  Of course, that's only if
JKR is following the established formula for the standard "Old Mentor helps
Young World Savior to Accept His Purpose in Life."  And eventually, of
course, Harry would eventually guide HIS successor to take his place when
Harry's life is over.







From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 23 21:30:03 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:30:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Garment Shop
References: <8qho1e+jfua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD20DA.89D357D8@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1984



Kelley wrote:

>
>
>  I would so love to see lots of people out and about dressed in cloaks.
> Pre-HP, I
> probably would have felt like Vernon Dursley at the beginning of SS.
> Now, however, I'd want to join in.
>

I'm actually looking forward to the first day I'll be wearing it to the
office (I work at a law firm).  I mean, it is so much NOT firm legal wear,
which is part of the reason I like it.  At times I really chafe over having
to work where I do, just to pay the mortgage.  So I wear funky clothes, I
get a hair wrap once in a while, just to push the envelope.

And ahem, yes, Amanda, I suppose you could say I was a fool to spend so much
money on it.  Couldn't make it myself--don't have a sewing machine or to the
time.  And, yeah, I could have hired a seamstress, but I didn't.  I chose to
do it and I'm not sorry.  Once in a while, I firmly believe, you have to be
a fool with your own money.  Not often, just occasionally.  I have to be
responsible in so many areas of my life (Mom, chief breadwinner, full-time
extremely mundane job), that sometimes, I just have to do something
absolutely crazy once in a while.  Like buy an expensive cloak.  Or rob
hours from my own sleep, writing essays about the seven deadly sins and the
HP books.  Or write fantasy novels.

Sometimes, I really get tired of being a responsible muggle.  So I pretend
I'm something else.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 23 21:34:36 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:34:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <39CD21EC.F2FCD6C2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1985



Christina Gross wrote:

>
> Speaking of Percy, he would have made a good example for a non-evil
> Slytherin. Is anybody else getting tired of their portrayal? There
> must be some decent people in the house.

I think it would be interesting to meet a Slytherin that you could count on,
utterly.  I just don't like the idea of all the Slytherins being nasty.
Seems too simplistic, and I don't think Rowling's a simplistic writer.  And
really, if all the Slytherins HAVE to be nasty and evil, would Dumbledore
let the Slytherin house continue?  Would parents be willing to keep sending
their kids there? (Other than the Deatheaters, of course).

Peg
Who holds out hope for some nobility in the Slytherins, somewhere (even
Draco).




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 23:04:27 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:04:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raistlin SPOILER WARNING FOR DRAGONLANCE~
References: <8qj3no+fu7c@eGroups.com> <006801c0259f$8055ac60$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <003501c025b2$a3d31520$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1986

You've got the basics, but here's a bit more.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
(Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Winter's Night (?), and Spring's Dawn)
Raistlin wasn't well liked by the group who worked with him, and mainly tolerated due to his talents (He DID become one of the "AD" level magus in Dragonlance) and due to his brother.  He evidently abandoned his adventuring group, and studied to help himself rather than any cause.  An elder mage (help me with spelling, please!  That's why I didn't correct Caramon, cause I can't be sure that's right!) named Fistadontalis was a spirit only due to something that happened centuries before, and took Raistlin's body to inhabit during what is Dragonlance's version of OWLS--a huge test to determine what the strengths and weaknesses of the mage are, and if they are qualified to proceed.  There is something that happened, and the next time the group encounters him in the books, he is wearing black robes (meaning serving the dark-moon of magic, as opposed to red robes or white robes), and seems to be more powerful.  There are many similarities between Raistlin and Snape, however.  One wonders throughout the whole six books if Raistlin is going to be totally evil, or is going to be redeemed somewhere down the line.  He appears briefly in the newer books written about the next generation, but I am not too clear on those, so I am not going to comment further.  I also am not going into details beyond the first few books, due to not wanting to spoil anyone's enjoyment of rabbits.  That's my favorite scene, btw!

Dee

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Firebolt 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 4:47 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raistlin



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  <Okay, I'll bite. What is Raistlin?>

  He's an extremely powerful wizard/sorcerer, who lets his younger brother
  Caimon (a nice, but none too brainy warrior type) 'protect him' (not that he
  needs it) because he's become rather frail from his magic. He is also an
  anti-hero to the extreme. He's a character from Tracy Hickman and Margaret
  Weis's Dragonlance series, and gets mentioned once in the same author team's
  Death Gate Cycle.

  To anyone else who's read those books, I read them only once a few years
  back...do I have my facts straight?

  ~Firebolt


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Sep 23 23:15:12 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:15:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Garment Shop
Message-ID: <id.23092000191512.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 1987

<Not often, just occasionally.  I have to be responsible in so many areas of my life (Mom, chief breadwinner, full-time extremely mundane job), that sometimes, I just have to do something absolutely crazy once in a while.  Like buy an expensive cloak.  Or rob hours from my own sleep, writing essays about the seven deadly sins and the HP books.  Or write fantasy novels.

Sometimes, I really get tired of being a responsible muggle.  So I pretend I'm something else.>

I totally agree that it's necessary every once in a while to do something completely out of character.  It keeps you young, and it's good for your soul.

voicelady



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 23 23:34:16 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:34:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raistlin SPOILER WARNING FOR DRAGONLANCE~
References: <8qj3no+fu7c@eGroups.com> <006801c0259f$8055ac60$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch> <003501c025b2$a3d31520$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001601c025b6$ca46ff60$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1988

http://www.tkb.com/raistlin/why_raistlin.htm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Denise 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 7:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Raistlin SPOILER WARNING FOR DRAGONLANCE~



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  You've got the basics, but here's a bit more.

  S
  P
  O
  I
  L
  E
  R
  (Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Winter's Night (?), and Spring's Dawn)
  Raistlin wasn't well liked by the group who worked with him, and mainly tolerated due to his talents (He DID become one of the "AD" level magus in Dragonlance) and due to his brother.  He evidently abandoned his adventuring group, and studied to help himself rather than any cause.  An elder mage (help me with spelling, please!  That's why I didn't correct Caramon, cause I can't be sure that's right!) named Fistadontalis was a spirit only due to something that happened centuries before, and took Raistlin's body to inhabit during what is Dragonlance's version of OWLS--a huge test to determine what the strengths and weaknesses of the mage are, and if they are qualified to proceed.  There is something that happened, and the next time the group encounters him in the books, he is wearing black robes (meaning serving the dark-moon of magic, as opposed to red robes or white robes), and seems to be more powerful.  There are many similarities between Raistlin and Snape, however.  One wonders throughout the whole six books if Raistlin is going to be totally evil, or is going to be redeemed somewhere down the line.  He appears briefly in the newer books written about the next generation, but I am not too clear on those, so I am not going to comment further.  I also am not going into details beyond the first few books, due to not wanting to spoil anyone's enjoyment of rabbits.  That's my favorite scene, btw!

  Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Firebolt 
    To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 4:47 PM
    Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raistlin



         My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


    <Okay, I'll bite. What is Raistlin?>

    He's an extremely powerful wizard/sorcerer, who lets his younger brother
    Caimon (a nice, but none too brainy warrior type) 'protect him' (not that he
    needs it) because he's become rather frail from his magic. He is also an
    anti-hero to the extreme. He's a character from Tracy Hickman and Margaret
    Weis's Dragonlance series, and gets mentioned once in the same author team's
    Death Gate Cycle.

    To anyone else who's read those books, I read them only once a few years
    back...do I have my facts straight?

    ~Firebolt


    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From waghorne at ma.ultranet.com  Sun Sep 24 01:06:36 2000
From: waghorne at ma.ultranet.com (Ken Waghorne)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:06:36 -500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
In-Reply-To: <39CD21EC.F2FCD6C2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <200009240005.UAA26790@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1989

Peg Kerr wrote:
> 
> I think it would be interesting to meet a Slytherin that you could count on,
> utterly.  I just don't like the idea of all the Slytherins being nasty.
> Seems too simplistic, and I don't think Rowling's a simplistic writer.  And
> really, if all the Slytherins HAVE to be nasty and evil, would Dumbledore
> let the Slytherin house continue?  

The supposition that Lily was a Slytherin might just fit in very well 
here.  It would both provide a good Slytherin character, and also be 
a surprise to most readers.  Maybe this is the hint from the 
continued reference to Lily's green eyes.  


Ken



------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Waghorne
waghorne at ma.ultranet.com



From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Sep 24 00:33:42 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:33:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur and Harry Potter
Message-ID: <200009240038.e8O0cRo05231@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1990

>Watching the television this morning with my son, I enjoyed seeing (a repeat) 
an episode of Arthur that reminded me of Harry Potter.  The children were 
enthused about reading, something that many of the parents found amazing 
(again, like HP!).  A
>few parents got together, though, and created an Anti-"Scare Your Pants off 
book" group called PAWS (Parents against Weird Stories), and had the books 
banned from the library.  The episode went on to explain why the books were a 
good thing, and the
>lead parent in the group hadn't even read the series, so the author, who was 
revealed, read him one of the book.  The basic "moral" of the show was don't 
condemn something you haven't read.  I wonder if we could make this show 
required reading for
>the HP banners?


I know this is extremely unrelated, but involves Arthur and HP too, and I have 
been lurking too much lately, so here goes!

I knew I was too HP-obsessed when I was reading one of the "Arthur" chapter 
books (I'm a children's librarian, it's part of my job!) and noticed how the 
interplay between Arthur and Buster is very similar to that between Harry and 
Ron.  I shared this observation with another librarian, who merely shook her 
head and walked away.


Kathy




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 00:40:57 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:40:57 -0000
Subject: Lily in Slytherin
Message-ID: <8qjiip+rg6j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1991

The more I think about this theory, the more I like it.  The green 
eyes and Voldemort saying he could have spared her fit, and the fact 
is, we still know next to nothing about Lily's personality.  We think 
of her defining characteristic as bravery because of the way she 
sacrificed her life for Harry, but maybe she had ambition, too, and 
that characteristic defined her more strongly.  Lily being in 
Slytherin also fits in with the theory of Snape being in love with 
her; on the other hand, I would suspect that most of the other 
Slytherins would have resented her, because she was Muggle born, 
while the majority of them would have come from old, pureblooded 
wizarding families.  If so, it would have made sense for her to seek 
out friends from other houses, which might have helped lead to her 
meeting and eventually falling in love with James.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 01:05:52 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 01:05:52 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qj3cv+kkn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjk1g+s38v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1992

Harry might die to defeat Voldemort; his fate and Voldemort's are 
bound together by the blood Voldemort took from Harry.  This is the 
source of Dumbledore's transient look of triumph, which faded,
perhaps 
when he realized some of the other implications. but I don't think 
Harry will die to defeat Voldemort.  What is likely to happen -- and
I 
didn't think of it first, by any stretch -- is that Harry will have
to 
give up something very big, perhaps his magical powers, to defeat 
Voldemort.  Think of that; his magical powers saved him from Hell
with 
the Durseleys and gave him an identity and a place in the world, and 
now, he has to give it up. It would actually be a bigger sacrifice.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the 
> prophecy, which everyone but him knows about, that the only way 
> Voldemort can be killed (Voldemort CAN be killed, altho' evil will 
> continue to exist) is if Harry (and it has to be Harry, not only 
> because of his pedigree and horoscope, but all those parallelisms
of 
> both being orphans, both Parseltongues, V now containing H's blood, 
> etc) dies in the act of killing him. Part of what makes it so 
> literary is that it has overtones of the basic Christian story, 
which 
> is of course one of the main archetypal stories in Western culture. 
> Also, it would explain why Rowling has a fair degree of confidence 
> that she is not going to write about Harry's life after Hogwarts.





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 01:30:24 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 01:30:24 -0000
Subject: Semi-Colons & John Grisham
In-Reply-To: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjlfg+kebr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1993

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, coriolan at w... wrote:
> I'm sure we all know folks who - without having read any of the 
> books - dismiss the Harry Potter series as children books. (A 
Muggles 
> co-worker told me that she "knew" that Harry Potter was written at 
a 
> first-grade level so American children can read the story without 
> help). Meanwhile, my adult friends demonstrate their *gravitas* by 
> reading the ouevre of John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall and Tom 
Clancy.
> 

I know no one who reads John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall or Tom 
Clancy...it was somewhat exciting for me to be au courant with 
popular culture through reading HP...

my friends are reading Gecko Tails and Blanche Cook's bio of Eleanor 
Roosevelt (Vol II).......




From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Sep 24 01:29:27 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:29:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <200009240134.e8O1YEo11799@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 1994

>Harry might die to defeat Voldemort; his fate and Voldemort's are
>bound together by the blood Voldemort took from Harry.  This is the
>source of Dumbledore's transient look of triumph, which faded,
>perhaps
>when he realized some of the other implications. but I don't think
>Harry will die to defeat Voldemort.  What is likely to happen -- and
>I
>didn't think of it first, by any stretch -- is that Harry will have
>to
>give up something very big, perhaps his magical powers, to defeat
>Voldemort.


Or "the thing he would miss the most"...I still think Ron will not make 
through Book 7 alive.  Perhaps the sacrifice will be his.  This goes along 
with the theory that he might betray Harry and ultimate turn back to him, 
sacrificing himself in the process.  So maybe the prophecy or whatever is that 
Harry will die defeating Voldemort, but Ron will take his place.


Kathy
(who is keeping all her crossable parts crossed that Ron lives a long healthy 
life and winds up an old man sitting on the porch with Hermione)




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 01:38:05 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 01:38:05 -0000
Subject: The cause of Neville 's poor memory--theory
In-Reply-To: <8qhj17+66fb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjltt+koq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1995

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kelley " <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > Neville has a notoriously poor memory. Could he be under a 
powerful 
> > Memory Charm? In GoF, we find out that Neville's parents were 
> > attacked by Death Eaters. First, his father was put under the 
> > Cruciatus Curse, then his mother. I believe Dumbledore said that 
> the 
> > attack on the Longbottoms occurred long after V.'s disappearance. 
> Did 
> > a two year old Neville witness this? And if he did, did his well-
> > meaning Grandmother put a Memory Charm on him to help him forget, 
> but 
> > also managed to mess up his memory in general? Afterall, two year 
> > olds can be scared by scary movies, sounds and people.
> 
> Milz--  I know this was practically 200 posts ago, but I've really 
> been wanting to comment here.  I think this is a great idea.  He 
gets 
> so shaken up about the Cruciatus curse, it sure seems like he might 
> have witnessed it being performed on his parents.  If he didn't see 
> it, someone must have told him about it in graphic detail.  And, I 
> can certainly imagine his grandmother using a memory charm on him 
so 
> he doesn't have to live with those memories every day.  But, when 
he 
> was in class and gave the Cruciatus curse answer, he sure seemed to 
> have some memories of something.  And, I looked in GoF, and Dumble 
> just says the attacks on the Longbottoms occurred after Vold's 
> downfall.  I couldn't find any other clues about when this might 
have 
> happened.  Well, no question Neville will figure more prominently 
in 
> the future, guess we'll learn his story then.
> 
> Kelley

Interesting..I think Neville might be suffering from some post 
traumatic stress, whether he witnessed the torture of his parents (I 
think he probably did) or just witnessed the result (remember he 
visits them in the asylum for the incurably insane and they don't 
recognize him).

My best guess is that he is repressing his magical abilities, because
he thinks that if he's a wizard, the fate that befell his parents 
will befall him (kind of like Regis Hastur who is repressing his 
laran because it's associated with his attraction to men.  Remember 
that his relatives kept trying to "surprise" the magic in him and all 
failed until a relative was hanging him by his ankles out of the 
window (don't have book in front of me), and accidentally let him go.
He could have been killed, but he bounced.

He consciously thinks that he wants to be a competent wizard, but his 
unconscious is determined to keep him safe. Also, has anyone else 
noticed that when one is under a ton of stress, it's hard to remember 
ordinary things?

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 01:45:58 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 01:45:58 -0000
Subject: Ex's
In-Reply-To: <39CCC8BB.7B3816B9@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8qjmcm+njq8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1996

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
wrote:
> > Partially because, in my experience, there is no jerk in 
> > the world as jerky as the jerk you used to be in love with; also 
> > because ex-spouse bashing is a lot more socially acceptable (and 
> > understandable) than bashing of a random person who you just dont 
> > like.
> 
> Have to say I'm the exception, almost unnaturally so.  My ex and i
> talked on phone at least weekly after she moved to a different 
state, so
> that I could stay in touch with my son (who spent summers with me - 
we
> thought the schools were better in Virginia than Indiana, else he 
might
> have stayed with me during school year) - and lately, our 
discussion,
> when not about Alan, have been about Harry Potter, and book 
banning, and
> Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and X-Men, and Unitarianism, and who's 
read
> what lately, and her dog Krypto's death (but her cat Streaky is 
still
> going strong:  toothless, deaf, and sedentary for most part, she 
still
> put the new dog in its place within two days!)  
> 
> We get along so well I once dreamed that we appeared on a Jerry
> Springer-like show and everybody thought we were fakes, because no 
one
> could believe we got on so well.
> 
> 
> My son's opinion of HP is kind of interesting, in that he is such a
> voracious F&SF reader that he liked them just fine, but they don't 
stand
> out head and shoulders above a lot of his other recent reading, to 
him. 
> He was complaining that the one William Gibson book his Science 
Fiction
> Literature teacher assigned was one *without* slam-bang action, when
> Gibson was such a good action writer.  And he agreed with me that 
_On
> the Beach_ was rather silly.
> 
> -Brooks
> You might be a candidate for Jerry Springer if......you let your 12 
year
> old daughter smoke at the dinner table in front of her kids.



Well, I'm another exception, I respect and like my former husband who 
is a good guy (if he hadn't been, why did I get involved with him)?, 
and I can't think of a former lover that I don't think well of......
Seriously, otherwise, what did I see in them in the first place?
(Unreasoned lust only lasts until they open their mouths..for me)

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 02:08:31 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 02:08:31 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjnmv+empn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1997

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
> wrote:
> > I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy 
> buddies who care for each other very much 
> 
> I very much doubt that Snape and Dumbledore are a couple, because 
> Snape (whom, we all know, doesn't bother to conceal his feelings) 
> is never seen fawning on Dumbledore. He is, however, often seen 
> fawning on Draco (which is the S/D I could believe in). We don't 
> really know why Snape makes such a pet of Draco, whether simply 
> because he is a Slytherin who is good at Potions, or in order to 
> curry favor with Lucius, or because he hates Harry, or my friend 
Lee 
> urged me to write an S/D to explain this favoritism. I believe that 
> is not a complete explanation: Draco is a handsome blond, but when 
he 
> first arrives at school, he is *only eleven* -- not hardly grown 
> enough to fall in love with him for  his looks! Except, since he 
> looks like little Lucius, if it were a side-effect of being in love 
> with Lucius.
> 
> For political correctness, I don't want to make Snape gay, because 
he 
> is such a nasty guy, a bad image, but for literary correctness, his 
> nastiness could result ffrom his bitterness and his bitterness 
COULD 
> result from being a gay person with intense internalized homophobia 
> -- while the variant of the Snape-loved-James theory that 
attributes 
> Snape's hostility to James having rebuffed Snape's tentative and 
> inept advances is just fine, another variant attributes Snape's 
> hostility to James making him feel lusts that he is trying very 
hard 
> not to feel. An affair with Draco (a few years ahead, when Draco is 
> older) might turn both of them into nicer people.
> 
> Mention has been made of the fanfic 'Draco Dormiens', which I 
enjoyed 
> very much. The author not only came up with an unusually plausible 
> way to turn Draco to the Light Side, but the reformed Draco (the 
> characters are all age 16 in this story) is, if not the sexiest 
thing 
> on two legs, at any rate sexier than anyone under the age of 
consent 
> (which is 18 here is California) has any right to be. Blond good 
> looks, vicious tongue, strong ability to conceal his true emotions, 
> and far more insight into what make people tick psychologically 
> than *I* had at 16! Are any of the older 'girls' on this list
> reminded of Ilya Kuryakin?


Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same 
gender relationships, so I doubt that Snape and Dumbledore are 
intimate. 

I also would not like to see Snape as a gay man since he is so 
nasty...(although I have to admit that having Gilderoy Lockhart turn 
out to be gay would be amusing, given all the women who fawned over 
him). Snape COULD be someone who doesn't acknowledge his own 
orientation, and is therefore bitter.....OR James and Sirius could 
have had a school boy affair and Snape could have been jealous!

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 02:17:19 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 02:17:19 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qj3cv+kkn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjo7f+40g1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 1998

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> > 
> It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the 
> prophecy, which everyone but him knows about, that the only way 
> Voldemort can be killed (Voldemort CAN be killed, altho' evil will 
> continue to exist) is if Harry (and it has to be Harry, not only 
> because of his pedigree and horoscope, but all those parallelisms 
of 
> both being orphans, both Parseltongues, V now containing H's blood, 
> etc) dies in the act of killing him. Part of what makes it so 
> literary is that it has overtones of the basic Christian story, 
which 
> is of course one of the main archetypal stories in Western culture. 
> 

Yes, the sacrifice of the sacred king is one of the archtypal 
Christian stories, but it comes from paganism (read Mary Renault, or
The White Goddess)




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:18:17 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:18:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The cause of Neville 's poor memory--theory
References: <8qjltt+koq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD6469.A8730C39@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 1999

Susan McGee wrote:

> My best guess is that he is repressing his magical abilities, because
> he thinks that if he's a wizard, the fate that befell his parents
> will befall him (kind of like Regis Hastur who is repressing his
> laran because it's associated with his attraction to men.  Remember
> that his relatives kept trying to "surprise" the magic in him and all
> failed until a relative was hanging him by his ankles out of the
> window (don't have book in front of me), and accidentally let him go.
> He could have been killed, but he bounced.

Yeah, that's what I had said, too. Remember he was coordinated and capable when told to do things under the Imperius Curse, as opposed to his usual, self-conscious clumsiness. He's got the
ability, but he's scared to realize it.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:19:51 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:19:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily in Slytherin
References: <8qjiip+rg6j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD64C7.F66608B6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2000

Steve Bates wrote:

> The more I think about this theory, the more I like it.  The green
> eyes

What's with green eyes being a Slytherin thing?

> of her defining characteristic as bravery because of the way she
> sacrificed her life for Harry, but maybe she had ambition, too, and
> that characteristic defined her more strongly.

Well, judging from her sister, I don't blame Lily for wanting to achieve something more, eh?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:26:52 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:26:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qj3cv+kkn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD666C.2F45A0F1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2001

Rita Winston wrote:

> It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the
> prophecy, which everyone but him knows about, that the only way
> Voldemort can be killed (Voldemort CAN be killed, altho' evil will
> continue to exist) is if Harry (and it has to be Harry, not only
> because of his pedigree and horoscope, but all those parallelisms of
> both being orphans, both Parseltongues, V now containing H's blood,
> etc) dies in the act of killing him.

Um, must have missed something here. Where did we get this prophecy? I don't
remember it.

> Also, it would explain why Rowling has a fair degree of confidence
> that she is not going to write about Harry's life after Hogwarts.

You know, authors *can* decide that enough is enough in good taste, while
their characters are still living. Just like TV series can end before they
meander endlessly and their characters morph completely away from their
original conceptions. It's rare, but it does happen.

> Snape is determined to keep Harry alive
> despite hating Harry. Snape clearly has no desire to protect Harry
> from humiliation, hurt feelings, bad grades, and so on, but
> repeatedly protects him from death.

Snape is on the staff at Hogwarts and despite his constant bad temper is
(reputedly) one of the good guys. As a professor, he's going to want to
protect any and all students from death. Harry just seems to be in death's
way more often, and after all, the book's about him, so that's what we as
readers are shown. I'm betting there's lots of duels and stuff in the
Slytherin common room that he cleans up, too. It's part of a professor's job
not to let the students expire.

--Amanda





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 24 02:35:29 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:35:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The cause of Neville 's poor memory--theory
References: <8qjltt+koq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD6871.8C399FBE@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2002



Susan McGee wrote:

>
> Interesting..I think Neville might be suffering from some post
> traumatic stress, whether he witnessed the torture of his parents (I
> think he probably did) or just witnessed the result (remember he
> visits them in the asylum for the incurably insane and they don't
> recognize him).

I actually wondered for a while whether he might have actually been damaged because he was in utero at the time.  That doesn't work out datewise, does it?  Lessee--Harry was fifteen months old
when James and Lily died and Voldemort disappeared, and presumably the Longbottoms were tortured after that, so presumably Neville was already born when his parents suffered the Crucio curse.
So, best guess is he didn't experience it in utero; instead he might have seen it and has a dim memory--or perhaps a magically enhanced memory, like Harry's.

I wonder what the Crucio curse (or Imperius Curse) would do to a baby if it's performed on a pregnant woman.

Ick.

Peg




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 24 02:34:07 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 02:34:07 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qjnmv+empn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2003

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:

> snip
> Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same 
> gender relationships
> 
> snip
	I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in 
PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast 
forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and 
parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I 
reading too much into it? 
Pippin





From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:35:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:35:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <39CD6858.C4DEFDBA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2004

Christina Gross wrote:

> Speaking of Percy, he would have made a good example for a non-evil
> Slytherin. Is anybody else getting tired of their portrayal? There
> must be some decent people in the house.

I'm sure there are, but they're probably not as fun to read about. Draco is
the anti-Harry, and he's pretty dedicatedly nasty, and he and his clique are
the ones we confront the most. But remember, the mention that Draco and many
Slytherins declined to rise and toast Harry at the end of book 4 is an
indirect means of sayting the rest of them *did.* Honor and ambition can
coexist.

Repeatedly portraying Slytherins as unquestionedly nasty is the sort of
lulling thing that authors set up so they can "gotcha" you later. I'm
expecting some redeeming qualities or characters to appear. Or maybe not.
Its original intended audience *was* children/young adults, and they like
some things to be black/white.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:39:57 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:39:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CD697D.9E4C3E3B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2005

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

>         I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
> PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
> forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
> parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
> reading too much into it?

I thought Lupin didn't want to touch Harry because he didn't want to cause a proud boy to break down at a very vulnerable moment. Teenage boys, in my experience, don't like to cry in front of
people, especially ones they think highly of. I thought he had to leave the school because parents would withdraw their children if a werewolf were there--it's dangerous. I am amazed at the
amount of sexual undertones people have found here, and I don't know that they're necessary to explain or justify the love.

--Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 02:43:17 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:43:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39CD6858.C4DEFDBA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c025d1$3279a780$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2006

That's the point about JKR, she said she didn't create these books to be geared towards the younger kids--she wrote them for herself.  We as adults don't think of things as black and white (trust me, a couple of ex's myself who are rainbowed! in my viewpoint--good points, bad points, and a mixture of both to give an overall profile), and I think these books are written to that effect, that there is grey in life, and we just have to deal with it.

Its original intended audience *was* children/young adults, and they like
some things to be black/white.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 02:46:12 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:46:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39CD6858.C4DEFDBA@texas.net> <001f01c025d1$3279a780$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39CD6AF4.7E8B2D28@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2007

Denise wrote:That's the point about JKR, she said she didn't create these books to be geared towards the younger kids--she wrote them for herself.  We as adults don't think of things as black and white

Remind me to introduce you to my husband.....  But that's what I was saying. That the Slytherins have been thus far portrayed as pretty much all bad is a stereotype in its truest form, and I'm expecting it to be ameliorated somewhere along the way. JKR has a good grasp of timing, in that she answers or addresses things just as they begin to stand out to her readers (much like the superb timing of sight gags in Wallace & Gromit, where the viewer is
given just that tiny, necessary beat to realize or comprehend, before the action continues). That we're noticing it means to me that it'll be addressed soon.

--Amanda




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Sep 24 02:57:28 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:57:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <id.23092000225728.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 2008

<Yes, the sacrifice of the sacred king is one of the archtypal  Christian stories, but it comes from paganism (read Mary Renault, or The White Goddess)>

Or also, once again, "Lammas Night" by Katherine Kurtz.  (How's THAT for a refer-back?) <G>

voicelady



From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 03:05:17 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:05:17 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qjr1d+u00k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2009

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> urged me to write an S/D to explain this favoritism. I believe that 
> is not a complete explanation: Draco is a handsome blond, but when 
>he first arrives at school, he is *only eleven* -- not hardly grown 
> enough to fall in love with him for  his looks! Except, since he 
> looks like little Lucius, if it were a side-effect of being in love 
> with Lucius.

You could hypothesize Lucius and Snape being lovers, and Lucius acts 
as Snape's introduction into the Death Eaters. (I somehow see Lucius 
as older than the Snape/James/etc. group.) Or Snape joins the DEs and 
meets Lucius that way. Either way, there's some good speculation 
fodder there -- not to mention the fanfic.

>his nastiness could result ffrom his bitterness and his bitterness 
>COULD result from being a gay person with intense internalized 
>homophobia <snip> another variant attributes Snape's hostility to 
>James making him feel lusts that he is trying very hard not to feel. 

Especially if the wizarding world's attitudes are anything like the 
larger Muggle society's. Who knows what kind of problems Snape would 
face if he were out of the closet?

>An affair with Draco (a few years ahead, when Draco is older) might 
>turn both of them into nicer people.
Nah. No chance. <g>

ht




From lmrourke at snet.net  Sun Sep 24 03:12:04 2000
From: lmrourke at snet.net (lmrourke at snet.net)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:12:04 -0000
Subject: Snape theory
Message-ID: <8qjre4+5m57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2010

Hi. I just joined a short while ago and have enjoyed reading all the 
messages and interesting discussions and theories being put forth.  I 
just wondered if anyone else have ever thought that perhaps Snape is 
an unregistered Animagus too?  What made me think of this was what 
Dumbledore says in GoF when he is in the hospital room (with Harry, 
Sirius in dog form, Snape, Ron, Hermione and Mrs. Weasley). He 
says "And now, it is time for two of our number to recognize each 
other for what they are.  Sirius...if you could resume your usual 
form."  WHAT they are?   Maybe this is how Snape was/will be able to 
spy on Voldemort again.  Just a thought.




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 03:53:52 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:53:52 -0000
Subject: Draco fanfic
In-Reply-To: <003101c0257e$27911360$5e43ddcf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8qjtsg+ngli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2011

Mention has been made of the fanfic 'Draco Dormiens', which I enjoyed
> very much. The author not only came up with an unusually plausible
> way to turn Draco to the Light Side, but the reformed Draco (the
> characters are all age 16 in this story) is, if not the sexiest 
thing
> on two legs, at any rate sexier than anyone under the age of consent
> (which is 18 here is California) has any right to be. Blond good
> looks, vicious tongue, strong ability to conceal his true emotions,
> and far more insight into what make people tick psychologically
> than *I* had at 16! Are any of the older 'girls' on this list
> reminded of Ilya Kuryakin?

Okay, I'm going to bite (and I have a right, since that's my Draco 
you're talking about!)--who's Ilya Kuryakin? I should know, shouldn't 
I? Anyway, I'm delighted you think my Draco is sexy -- underage jail 
bait though he may be. Judging by the amount of email I get every day 
begging me to either a) put Draco in leather pants or b) even worse 
things that I refuse to mention, others feel the same way. Of course, 
I am of the opinion that had JKR made Draco fat and short, there 
would be NO Draco fics. It is down to the fact that she made him 
rich, blond and cranky. (IMHO) Maybe I'll age him up for the next 
series...




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 04:36:56 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 04:36:56 -0000
Subject: How Book 5 should start
Message-ID: <8qk0d8+mclk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2012

After Harry's friend is murdered right before his eyes, after being 
threatened with death and stabbed, after being tied to a tombstone 
and tortured so badly he wants to die, poor Harry is suffering from 
something like post traumatic stress disorder. Harry is like a shell 
shocked soldier at the start of book 5. A month after his horrible 
encounter with the dark lord he's at the Durseleys and he's still 
having nightmares, his hand shakes, he's lost a lot weight, he isn't 
sleeping or eating much and he just doesn't look good. His friends 
are worried about him so he spends the last month of the vacation 
with Ron and Hermione at the Weasleys home. He regains his health and 
starts to cheer up largely because of Ginny Weasley, Harry falls in 
love with Ron's sister.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 24 04:51:54 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 04:51:54 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <39CD697D.9E4C3E3B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qk19a+ri67@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2013

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> I thought Lupin didn't want to touch Harry because he didn't want
to cause a proud boy to break down at a very vulnerable moment.
Teenage boys, in my experience, don't like to cry in front of
> people, especially ones they think highly of. I thought he had to
leave the school because parents would withdraw their children if a
werewolf were there--it's dangerous. I am amazed at the
> amount of sexual undertones people have found here, and I don't
know that they're necessary to explain or justify the love.
> 
> --Amanda
Amanda, in the context of the story you are absolutely right..I was 
seeing it as a metaphor -- 
Pippin





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 24 05:11:06 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 05:11:06 -0000
Subject: 1: ~sognirjari/  2: prophecy   3: Ilya Kuryakin  4: S/L 
In-Reply-To: <F281j03oHMwVN7miR9O000001fd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qk2da+qeoh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2014

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Pogonia the Harry Potter fan" 
<pogoniamalfoy at h...> wrote:

> ::delurking:: It's been done in fanfic too, Harry Potter and the 
> Doomspell Potion,   http://home.att.net/~sognirjari/

1. I bookmarked that URL, and it was there this morning, but when I 
finally had time to read fiction this afternoon, it isn't there any 
more!

2. It's a hypothetical prophecy: that's why no (or very very few) 
people remember reading it in the Canon.

3. Ilya Kuryakin was a Good Guy, and I don't remember his mouth being 
*as* nasty as Draco's, altho' he could be relied on for sarcasm  .... 
Ilya was Napoleon Solo's partner in "the Man from UNCLE" TV show (and 
spin-off books) back in the '60s. Altho' the character was stated to 
be Russian, he was played by non-Russian blond actor David McCallum, 
and all little girls who watched the show were in love with him. (We 
who are now old middle-aged ladies in our 40s were little girls back 
then.) 

4. I, too, believe that Lucius is older than MWPP-Lily-Snape. In GoF, 
Sirius mentions that Severus used to hang out with a bunch of 
Slytherins who all became Death Eaters: Wilkes and Rozier, Avery, 
the Lestranges... He didn't mention Lucius Malfoy.

I imagine that young Severus became friends with a  clique of his 
Housemates (I imagine that it was the second-rate clique, because I 
imagine that the first-rate clique was too snobby to admit him), 
who at first merely tolerated him because he was useful to them, to 
help with their homework (or do it for them), help them cram for 
exams, make Potions for them (weight-loss, acne-removal, temporary 
memory-enhancement for exams, teaching them Curses to use on people 
they don't like), 

but, as they got used to having him around (familiarity breeds 
affection more often than contempt), decided that his vicious tongue 
was wittiness (when the insults are aimed at someone outside their 
clique, they all laugh in enjoyment, when they're aimed at someone in 
the clique, they resolutely say: "That Severus, he has such a sense 
of humor, always saying funny things, ha-ha!") and his totally inept 
absolute lack of social skills (something to which I can relate!) was 
not nerdiness but justified arrogance: "Our Severus, he doesn't suck 
up to *anybody*". 

And he liked them because they like him, the first people who ever 
did.

I imagine that first they left school and were at the beginning of 
their adult lives, then they joined the Death Eaters, then Severus 
met Lucius through the Death Eater connection.

I imagine that the Death Eaters don't have a PO Box to which to mail 
one's application for membership: one must be recruited by someone 
who is already a member. When I try to imagine how this lot were 
recruited, partly it depends on just how loathsome is Severus: if he 
enjoys venting some of his endless rage against the world by helping 
his friend beat some old Muggle to death, I can't even think about 
this story, so I have to think that he has *some* conscience.   

So I was thinking, maybe Rozier and Wilkes got to know Crabbe pere 
and Goyle pere, and one time they have a few drinks together (a few 
too many drinks) and the four of 'em ended up beating a frail elderly 
wizard or gang-raping a pretty young witch, in a scenario that begins 
with the four louts heckling the old man/pretty girl, who tells them 
that they're a bunch of drunken louts. They became quite angry at 
having been so insulted by a Mudblood and start in with the violence. 
When finished with the violence, they realize that their victim could 
testify against them, causing them to be convicted of assault and 
battery or rape, so they kill the victim to prevent testimony.

Not that they've gone anything to clear the scene of their finger 
prints, thought prints, warm scarves with nametags sewn in, etc. But 
there are Death Eaters among the trusted employees of the Department 
of Magical Law Enforcement, who can destroy evidence and lose paper 
trails that point to Death Eaters -- or sometimes create evidence and 
paper trails to point to Light Side activists -- which leads to a 
Death Eater recruiting agent approaching Wilkes and Rozier: "It could 
be arranged for the Ministry to forget that it knows all about that 
old man / girl you killed... but only if you swear total and eternal 
obedience to Lord Voldemort..." 

They might hesitate and ask questions: "What is You-Kno -- I mean, 
his Lordship, going to make us do, like is he going to order us to 
give up drinking?" but the answer is "What does it matter? You 
can't drink in Azkaban." They figure they really have no choice, but 
once they're in, they quite enjoy it. They enjoy killing people, and 
Death Eating is the only way they would ever get invited into Malfoy 
Manor. They recruit their whole clique, except the whole clique is a 
little nervous about approaching Severus on the subject, but they 
realise that his intelligence and Potions would be a valuable asset. 
In fact, he is a valuable asset even without being recruited, as 
they ask him questions about Curses and other aspects of Dark Arts. 
He is glad to lecture on a subject in which he is so interested, 
he is glad to have his friends actually listen to him, he is 
glad that they say Thank You to him, he never stops to wonder why 
they want to know. 

Lucius tells them to bring Severus to one of the meetings that Lucius 
runs, without telling him what it is a meeting of. Lucius turns on 
the charm and engages Severus in a discussion of Dark Arts. Severus 
completely falls in love with 1) Lucius's library, and 2) Lucius (who 
has good looks, elegance, self-confidence, high social standing). 
Lucius seduces Severus into the Death Eaters by smiling at him a few 
times and letting him run loose in that library. No sex occurs, no 
sex is spoken of, Severus never admits to himself that there is 
anything sexual in his feelings about Lucius, Lucius knows perfectly 
well what buttons he is pushing to manipulate this boy. Thus, Severus 
joins the Death Eaters (and get marked) without realizing what he's 
doing until he participates in his first murder. Which disgusts him 
at the time and gives him nightmares ever after (altho' soldiers get 
used to it!), so he turns himself in.

This is of course an entirely different plot line from the one in 
which he was raised from birth (or earlier) to serve Lord V.





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 06:06:06 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 06:06:06 -0000
Subject: S/L and other MWPP matters
In-Reply-To: <8qk2da+qeoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qk5ke+b05i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2015

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> This is of course an entirely different plot line from the one in 
> which he was raised from birth (or earlier) to serve Lord V.

What a fascinating theory, Rita!  I was thinking the above, since it 
was stated that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more about the Dark 
Arts than many seventh years did.  Your scenario was believable, not 
to mention an enjoyable read.

I feel certain that all of the Marauders were in Gryffindor.  I'm 
sure there'll be enough rug-pulling elsewhere without jerking that 
one from under our feet.  Having said that, I agree that Lily could 
have been a Slytherin.

The Prior Incantatem debate was rather interesting.  I have no 
opinion--I think it's a "wait and see" matter.  I'm not sure if it 
will have huge plot significance, though.  I noted it while reading 
GoF for the first time but it didn't jar me much because it seemed to 
fit nicely into the context of the scene.

--Ebony




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 06:42:55 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 06:42:55 -0000
Subject: Follow-up to "Functions" post and brief S.O.S.
Message-ID: <8qk7pf+atks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2016

Thanks, Rosemary, for your response to my *long* rant.  I'm saving 
your list of events so that I can sit down with it and my copy of SS.

In response to my classmates' assertion that JKR is not writing great 
literature, I've decided this weekend to do my Lit Crit term paper on 
Harry Potter.  If all goes well and my prof sponsors it (not a 
problem), I plan to submit the paper to a conference or two... the 
spring NCTE one comes to mind.  The more English studies 
professionals that write about JKR without being nasty or 
condenscending, the better.

This is where I need help.  I e-mailed Penny this summer with some 
overall thoughts about looking at the series via psychoanalytic 
criticism and some hypothetical conclusions that might be drawn as a 
result.  For the purposes this paper, I'll be focusing on the last 6-
7 chapters of PoA.  However, in order for my reasoning to be 
effective, I need 1) an *authenticated* biographical source for JKR 
and 2) to do a *whole* lot of reading that I may not have time for.

My S.O.S.--

1)  The only JKR bio I have is the Shapiro one, which we have 
determined is not worth the paper it is printed on.  Where can I find 
good background info *off-line*?  Most English types do not trust 
online sources--my undergrad and grad profs frown/frowned on these.

2)  I need to find an author or two whose work is similar to JKRs, 
but whose work has been looked at from the psychoanalytic 
perspective.  I thought of DWJ, but doubt that she'd fit the bill.  
Fantasy readers:  any suggestions?  If not, I'll either have to go 
with Tolkien or Lewis, who are both canonical, but whose bios do not 
parallel JKR's.

Writing the paper is the least of my worries.  :)  It's the little 
foxes that ruin the vineyard... and the critique will be worthless if 
I don't have the source material.  Please e-mail me privately if you 
can help.  Especially if you are a psychologist by trade...

--Ebony




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 07:01:15 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 07:01:15 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qk8rr+g0o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2017

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:

<<I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in 
> PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then 
(fast 
> forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and 
> parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am 
I reading too much into it?>>

That's something I've never thought of.  But I think that Remus 
doesn't touch Harry because he doesn't like showing his emotions 
rather than because he was afraid of any misinterpretations of his 
actions.  

However, I can see a lot in the notion of a teacher having to leave a 
school to forestall parental outrage, because it has happened at my 
old school many times, and many times the students have been furious 
about it.  JKR's handling of this was extremely moving and sensitive, 
as perhaps we might expect from a former teacher.

~Blaise.  





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 07:19:35 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 07:19:35 -0000
Subject: Sept. 7 JKR Interview
Message-ID: <8qk9u7+1bsl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2018

Here's *another* link to *another* interview with JKR, taken from 
Entertainment Weekly, Sept. 7--

http://www.ew.com/ew/daily/0,2514,3590,jkrowlingexplainswhy.html

Some of the usual, some new information (at least for me it was).  If 
this has already been sent, I apologize.  

--Ebony




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Sep 24 07:16:50 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:16:50 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape theory
In-Reply-To: <8qjre4+5m57@eGroups.com>
References: <8qjre4+5m57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <eg7rsscipldfgbjq7s43gabcgoiaspfub6@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2019

On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 03:12:04 -0000,  lmrourke at snet.net wrote:

> "And now, it is time for two of our number to recognize each 
>other for what they are.  Sirius...if you could resume your usual 
>form."  WHAT they are?   Maybe this is how Snape was/will be able to 
>spy on Voldemort again.  Just a thought.

I think he meant they should recognize each other for two people
fighting for the same goal, that is saving the wizarding world from
Voldemort. Snape still thinks that Sirius betrayed the Potters and
Sirius thinks that Snape can hardly be loyal to Dumbledore because he
was a Death Eater. He doesn't know that Snape had changed sides before
Voldemort's downfall.

Has anyone else the feeling that it could get Dumbledore into trouble
forcing them to work together?

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 24 09:08:19 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:08:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily in Slytherin
References: <8qjiip+rg6j@eGroups.com> <39CD64C7.F66608B6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002601c02607$10a43f40$eb8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2020


> What's with green eyes being a Slytherin thing?

Green's a Slytherin colour (along with silver).  Could be a clue, although
I'm not suggesting all, or even most, of the Slyths have green eyes.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 24 09:14:23 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:14:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com> <39CD697D.9E4C3E3B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003101c02607$da71ede0$eb8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2021


> I thought Lupin didn't want to touch Harry because he didn't want to cause
a proud boy to break down at a very vulnerable moment. Teenage boys, in my
experience, don't like to cry in front of
> people, especially ones they think highly of. I thought he had to leave
the school because parents would withdraw their children if a werewolf were
there--it's dangerous. I am amazed at the
> amount of sexual undertones people have found here, and I don't know that
they're necessary to explain or justify the love.


I have to say, I didn't pick up any gay undertones - Lupin had to leave
because of the werewolf thing.  I don't know if it's strictly necessary to
read too much into it.  Yes, it's a metaphor for prejudice and being an
outcast, but does not necessarily equate to homosexuality, IMHO.

Jinx




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 10:49:55 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:49:55 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier> <009101c0259a$5da59d60$848e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <OE6y4cp51dyZSdA6kvA00000520@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2022

> Hello, my name is Donna Rae and I'm new on the list.  So if this has
already been discussed, forgive the post.  But...didn't the sorting hat
suggest that Harry should be a Slytherin?

yes it did but, but remember Dumbledore said that Volde had put some of himself, his skills, in to Harry when he cursed Harry (which is why he is a parseltounge amougst other things) sorry I don't have the book so I don't have the referance. so - I don't think that Lily necessaryily was a slytherin though I maintain they can't *all* be bad.

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jinx 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:10 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  




  It did.  But Harry chose otherwise.  And there's been too much comparing of
  Harry to James for them to be in different houses, and for that not to have
  been mentioned.  I don't know, James just doesn't seem Slyth material to me,
  he seems much more of a Gryff.  I do think Lily and James's houses will be
  important, as there's been no mention of them yet.  But I think that all the
  Marauders except Wormtail were probably in Gryff.  Lily may also have been
  in a different house.  In fact, maybe she was a Slyth and that's why Voldy
  said she didn't have to die.  Also if she was a Slyth, she'd have known
  Snape quite well, giving weight to the Snape being in love with Lily theory.

  It would also explain why the hat wanted to make Harry a Slyth, if his
  mother was one, and he's inherited those qualities.  But if his father was a
  Gryff, and Harry identified more with that side of himself, then that's why
  the hat put that down as the next choice.

  It'd make a great twist, wouldn't it?  Harry seeing the Slyths as the source
  of all things evil, then finding out his mother was one.  Imagine the effect
  on Harry.

  An even better one would be to find out that Lily was not just a Slyth, but
  a closet Death Eater, but the only evidence I can find for that is Voldy
  saying she needn't have died...

  Jinx


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 11:26:15 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:26:15 -0000
Subject: Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
In-Reply-To: <OE6y4cp51dyZSdA6kvA00000520@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qkocn+m6ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2023

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:

> yes it did but, but remember Dumbledore said that Volde had put
some 
of himself, his skills, in to Harry when he cursed Harry (which is
why 
he is a parseltounge amougst other things) sorry I don't have the
book 
so I don't have the referance. so - I don't think that Lily 
necessaryily was a slytherin though I maintain they can't *all* be 
bad.
 
storm

You are absolutely right, IMO. For some reason this explanation is
too 
simple and straightforward, so there are many flights of fancy 
surrounding the Hat considering Harry for Slytherin and Lily's House, 
etc.  The Hat saw in Harry many of the qualities Salazar Slytherin 
looked for in his handpicked students (Dumbledore told Harry 
exactly that in CoS).  

We know nothing to support putting Lily in any particular House.  She 
was a Head Girl, obviously an excellent student, so she could have 
been a brilliant Ravenclaw. She was courageous before she gave up her 
life for her infant son, just by staying with her husband in hiding 
and resisting Voldemort, so she was great Gryffindor material. She
was 
loyal to her family and to the cause of good, a hallmark of a 
Hufflepuff. We don't know of her ambition, so we don't know about 
Slytherin.

Remember the rule of logic called Occam's Razor: The simplest 
explanation that covers the facts is to be preferred. When we build 
these spun-sugar castles of fancy that has Lily as a closet Death 
Eater or whatever, we're almost certainly going down the wrong path.





From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 11:37:00 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:37:00 -0000
Subject: How Book 5 should start
In-Reply-To: <8qk0d8+mclk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qkp0s+bg40@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2024

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> After Harry's friend is murdered right before his eyes, after being 
> threatened with death and stabbed, after being tied to a tombstone 
> and tortured so badly he wants to die, poor Harry is suffering from 
> something like post traumatic stress disorder. Harry is like a
shell 
> shocked soldier at the start of book 5. A month after his horrible 
> encounter with the dark lord he's at the Durseleys and he's still 
> having nightmares, his hand shakes, he's lost a lot weight, he
isn't 
> sleeping or eating much and he just doesn't look good. His friends 
> are worried about him so he spends the last month of the vacation 
> with Ron and Hermione at the Weasleys home. He regains his health 
and 
> starts to cheer up largely because of Ginny Weasley, Harry falls in 
> love with Ron's sister.

Eggplant,

That's interesting.  He certainly will get less than nothing from the 
Dursleys, who'll make things worse if anything.  The loving Weasley 
house is just right to help. Harry could turn to Ginny for comfort, 
and I've always favored her because I think her loving background 
bodes well for her as a mate. OTOH, Ginny may not have the emotional 
wherewithal at her age to deal with Harry in the state he's in, and 
I'd hate to see their future ruined that way. I only disagree with
you 
to the extent that I don't think Harry can fall in love right now.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 11:57:37 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:57:37 -0000
Subject: Sept. 7 JKR Interview
In-Reply-To: <8qk9u7+1bsl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qkq7h+14gg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2025

You're up early! 5:19am your time?

JKR is showing again the integrity she's bringing to her story. It's
a 
significant part of her success.  Great literature never came from 
catering to any certain audience. She's writing the book she wants to 
write.

She says she's like Hermione, but she's a lot like Dumbledore as
well. 
She always chooses to tell and show the truth, about evil, about 
bigotry, and about friendship.  That's what makes these stories so 
moral.
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Here's *another* link to *another* interview with JKR, taken from 
> Entertainment Weekly, Sept. 7--
> 
> http://www.ew.com/ew/daily/0,2514,3590,jkrowlingexplainswhy.html
> 
> Some of the usual, some new information (at least for me it was).  
If 
> this has already been sent, I apologize.  
> 
> --Ebony




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sun Sep 24 14:17:51 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:17:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sorting
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier>
Message-ID: <Q.20000924151751.14B4.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2026

On 23.09.2000 at 15:18:40 Donna Rae wrote:

>Hello, my name is Donna Rae and I'm new on the list.  So if this has
>already been discussed, forgive the post.  But...didn't the sorting
>hat suggest that Harry should be a Slytherin?
>

The Sorting Hat noticed Harry's eagerness to prove himself. But Harry
didn't want to go to Slytherin, and as Dumbledore told him later the
choices he made were even more important than character traits like
ambition and courage. 

Besides, Harry also has something of Voldemort in him so that may
have played into it as well.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Sun Sep 24 14:17:51 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:17:51 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
References: <8qioqo+cjav@eGroups.com> <003c01c02593$17208000$1e66193f@donnadozier> <009101c0259a$5da59d60$848e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <Q.20000924151751.F5C.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2027

On 23.09.2000 at 21:10:46 Jinx wrote:
>Lily may also
>have been
>in a different house.  In fact, maybe she was a Slyth and that's why
>Voldy
>said she didn't have to die.  

That doesn't make sense to me. Why should Voldemort show mercy for a
woman from his own house who betrayed him by joining the
Potter/Dumbledore crowd? 

>It'd make a great twist, wouldn't it?  Harry seeing the Slyths as
>the source
>of all things evil, then finding out his mother was one.  Imagine
>the effect
>on Harry.

That would be interesting. And very much like Rowling to lull her
readers into believing one thing about a group of people and then
hitting them over the head with contradictory facts.

>An even better one would be to find out that Lily was not just a
>Slyth, but
>a closet Death Eater, but the only evidence I can find for that is
>Voldy
>saying she needn't have died...

If Lily was a Death Eater why did Voldemort need Wormtail to get to
her husband? I think he lied when he told Harry his mother needn't
have died. He wanted to torture Harry by making him feel responsible
for her death.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Sep 24 13:25:43 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:25:43 -0000
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
Message-ID: <8qkvcn+n2tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2028

Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have been 
reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a 
special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or 
academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer, 
with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.

I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his 
9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in high 
school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what 
would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer 
group reading now (after HP)?

Thanks
Jim Flanagan






From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 24 13:41:36 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:41:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com> <39CD697D.9E4C3E3B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39CE0490.456BCDF2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2029



Amanda Lewanski wrote:

>
> foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
>
> >         I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
> > PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
> > forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
> > parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
> > reading too much into it?
>
> I thought Lupin didn't want to touch Harry because he didn't want to cause a proud boy to break down at a very vulnerable moment. Teenage boys, in my experience, don't like to cry in front of
> people, especially ones they think highly of. I thought he had to leave the school because parents would withdraw their children if a werewolf were there--it's dangerous.

I think both interpretations can reasonably be brought to the text, depending on the reader..  The interpretation you propose, Amanda, seems correct to me--and it is very moving, that Lupin is
that sensitive to nuance that he does just the right thing at the moment.  The other interpretation is something that, to me, isn't what the story is ABOUT.  But it is something that the reader
might think of, saying, this scene reminds me of this situation, and that gloss adds a depth to the reader's appreciation of the scene.

That's one thing I've discovered as a writer.  I'll write something, and then a reader will approach me, saying, "When you wrote this, it made me think of this" and I'll say--I never thought of
that--but you're right!  That interpretation can fit, too, and it actually complements the themes I was trying to create.

Peg





From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 13:45:56 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:45:56 -0500
Subject: Sorting/Houses
References: <8qh983+qhdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE0594.B01A2045@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2030

Hi --

Kelley wrote:

> This keeps making me wonder, though, why didn't Hermione get
> sorted into Raven?  Of course she's brave, but if any character is
> considered super-smart, it's her.  She aces everything, the other
> students consider her a brainiac, don't they?  She got McG's help
> getting the time-turner so she could take more classes because she's
> such an exceptional student.  I guess bravery is her dominating
> characteristic?  But, heck, Cho's in Raven, it would be hard to
> believe she's smarter than Hermione.  Maybe intellect is Cho's
> dominant quality.  Is that supposed to be how it works?

I think the Sorting is considerably more complicated than the Sorting
Hat song(s) would suggest.  Everyone has a number of "sides" or
dimensions to their character.  In the case of Hermione, I have several
thoughts.  It's certainly possible that she *asked* to be put in
Gryffindor as well (or, like Harry, asked not to go in Ravenclaw) -- she
said on the Hogwarts Express that she really hoped she made it into
Gryffindor because she'd heard it was the best House.  I don't think Cho
or all the Ravenclaws are necessarily the *smartest* students.  I think
it means that their defining characteristic is reliance on their
intellect to solve problems, approach life, etc.  Hermione does use her
intellect in this manner, but there's obviously alot more to her than
just the intellect.  I personally still love the twist that Lori puts on
this in PoU -- she thinks that the intellectual pursuits aren't, in the
final analysis, *enough* for Hermione, who also enjoys the daring
escapades that she gets into with Harry & Ron in the books.  She has
Harry tell Hermione that perhaps the Sorting Hat purposefully put her in
Gryffindor so she would eventually recognize that side of her
personality.

As for the Marauders & Lily -- I also don't think we know enough about
them yet.  It's fun to guess, but I'm wagering it's not as simple as
picking the defining characteristic that we know about their personality
& sorting them into the appropriate House ourselves.  We haven't as yet
seen much in the way of inter-House friendships so . . . . .all in all,
I'd still guess that they were all in the same House.  Since James &
Lily were both Head Boy & Head Girl, they must have both been prefects.
So, I think it's utterly plausible that Lily was in a different House
than the Marauders & that she got to know James as they were both
prefects.  I must say I do see some merit in the Lily could have been in
Slytherin arguments -- it does explain the Snape was in love with Lily
theory, the fact that Lily was seemingly not part of the Marauders'
exploits, etc.  But, she could also have been in any of the other 3
houses just as easily.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 13:49:37 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:49:37 -0500
Subject: POLL: Early Reading Influences
References: <8qhd4r+hqrd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE0671.654BF0AF@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2031

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> I am a voracious reader, my house is crammed with thousands of books,
> <snip>
>
> My parents read to me until I could read myself but not after that.
> I read everything I could lay my hands on, I tried to read all the
> books starting with A, and I loved biography and history. In first
> grade, I was tested at a sixth grade reading level, but can't
> remember the rest of my tests.

I could have written all the above word for word (even down to the 6th
grade reading level in 1st grade).  <g>   My parents are not (and were
not) readers themselves (the only books in my parents room were the
Bible, Dr. Spock's baby care & a Methodist hymnal).  But, they did
believe it was important to read to their children so they read to me
from a very early age.  I could read for myself largely by age 3, and I
don't have any conscious memories of my parents reading to me after that
time.  I do remember being the complete & quintessential bookworm my
entire life though.

Need to go vote in that poll!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 13:55:46 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 08:55:46 -0500
Subject: Semi-Colons & John Grisham: Literary Merit; NY Times
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE07E2.A2B66E5@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2032

Hi -

coriolan at worldnet.att.net wrote:

> Now, I'm sure JK Rowling will never include a sex scene to equal the
> stunning prose of Grisham, but aside from that, Rowling is in every
> respect stylistically more complex than her best-selling compatriots.
> Just one example: I've skimmed through several volumes of Grisham,
> Cornwall in search of a semi-colon.  I've yet to find one.  Grisham
> and Cornwall write a tedious series of short, declarative sentences
> that might(ignoring content) fit right in to The Weekly Reader or The
> Berenstein Bears. Rowling OTOH rejoices in the beauty of the English
> language, and fully exploits its dramatic potential in her dialogue -
> take any page at random in any of her books, and we find an array
> ofhyphens, ellipses and semi-colons. That in itself does not make a
> writer superior, yet I  think anyone who compares Rowling with the
> aforementioned authors can only agree that she has created by far the
> more morally complex and ambiguous universe, as compared to the
> simplistic good guys/bad guys of The Firm (The protagonists in
> Grisham are forever evading their adult responsiblities, and the
> author clearly expects us to accordingly applaud them when they
> finally escape them - when has Harry given into doubt, and refused
> the duties Destiny has thrust upon him?)
>
> A cartoonist in The Washington Post recently had a child exclaim "Do
> you doubt the superiority of childhood to maturity? Kids are reading
> the dense, multi-volume Harry Potter adeventures. Adults are reading
> Who Moved My Cheese," a vapid fable of money-grubbing managerial
> mice!"

I'm breaking my own rule against largely "Me too" & "I agree" posts to
say -- can I send this verbatim to the NY Times?  <g>  I *love* it!

Speaking of our friend the NY Times -- did anything ever come of Jim &
Voicelady's plans to possibly visit the NY Times Book Review offices in
person?  I'm still holding out hope . . . .

Amanda wrote: <<<<Its original intended audience *was* children/young
adults, and they like
some things to be black/white.>>>>>

(Penny assumes best Hermione-like voice): No, no, no, no  . . .
no!!!!!  JKR has said repeatedly that she wrote the books for herself &
that she never set out to write a childrens' series.  The first volumes
happen to feature a pre-adolescent boy as the protagonist, but that does
not make them a childrens' series or make their intended audience
entirely children.  Besides, I have a very hard time believing that JKR
is writing any of this to be black & white.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 24 13:58:28 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:58:28 -0000
Subject: Flying
In-Reply-To: <001f01c02591$c18246c0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ql1a4+g1nr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2033

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:


> 
> How exactly did Hagrid fly to the island?  Something like Mary
Poppins?

	Wouldn't Mary Poppins have been at Hogwarts about the same time as 
Hagrid and Riddle? Where did Hagrid's umbrella come from anyway? I 
smell a fanfic here
Pippin





From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 14:02:41 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:02:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39CD21EC.F2FCD6C2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39CE0981.57EC5EFF@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2034

Hi

Peg Kerr wrote:

> I think it would be interesting to meet a Slytherin that you could
> count on, utterly.  I just don't like the idea of all the Slytherins
> being nasty.  Seems too simplistic, and I don't think Rowling's a
> simplistic writer.  And really, if all the Slytherins HAVE to be nasty
> and evil, would Dumbledore let the Slytherin house continue?  Would
> parents be willing to keep sending their kids there? (Other than the
> Deatheaters, of course).

This belonged in my earlier post on Sorting I suppose -- sorry.  I agree
with this fully.  My husband (whose Myers/Briggs results put him
squarely in Slytherin under *any* definitition -- <g>) has always asked
this question.  Why would there *be* a Slytherin House if they were all
completely unredeemable & worthless human beings?  I still maintain that
ambition is probably their defining characteristic, and ambition can be
used to further both good & evil ends.  I think we just haven't met any
of the worthwhile Slytherins as yet.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 14:12:10 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:12:10 -0500
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qj48e+n8v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE0BBA.701BDBED@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2035

Hi ---

Rita Winston wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
>
> > It would certainly be very literary if Harry carries out the
> > prophecy, which all the Old Gang knows about but he doesn't, that
> > the only way Voldemort can be killed is if Harry dies in the act of
> > killing him.
>
> If my brain were working, I would included this in the big post,
> instead of of burdening everyone with two posts:
>
> We can guess how Snape feels about having to keep Harry alive long
> enough for Harry to die killing Voldemort -- resentful of having to
> keep Harry alive, and unreservedly eager for that final double death.
>
> But how do the good guys such as Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lupin, Black
> feel about raising up the child in their care, who also is the image
> of James whom they all loved, to be a real good kid of whom they're
> proud, all the time knowing that they're going to send him to die
> like a turkey at Thanksgiving (or, I guess, a goose at Xmas for the
> Brits)?

I think the above paragraph is an excellent argument why Harry isn't
necessarily destined to die.  He is clearly destined to have a final
showdown with Voldemort at some point, but I don't think it's
necessarily ordained that he will die in the process.  I very much doubt
that Dumbledore could be mentoring him through his training just so that
he can be the sacrificial lamb in the end.  He's obviously mentoring him
in the hope that he'll have the strength, power, knowledge & so forth to
wage an effective final battle & triumph.  I was an early adherent to
the HP books as Christian allegory view, but in the final analysis, I
don't want Harry to die (not even to vindicate my theories).  And, I
don't think JKR wants him to die either. I really don't think that's her
intent in the end.

She hasn't necessarily ruled out writing books after HP 7 -- she has
only said that she never intended to do this but that she never says
never anymore (since she then inevitably ends up doing whatever it was
she swore she'd never do).  She has also joked when asked about
post-Hogwarts books and said "So, you're sure I won't kill Harry off at
the end of Book 7?"  I think she's just joking in this context.  I think
there is a possibility that she *could* do more books, but if she does,
I suspect it will be after a respite, perhaps even writing something
completely different & coming back to HP later.

Whoever proposed the theory (Jim?) that perhaps Harry will have to
sacrifice his magical powers to defeat Voldemort could be on the right
track.  That's a very interesting twist to consider.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 14:27:10 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:27:10 -0500
Subject: Ebony's S.O.S.
References: <8qk7pf+atks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE0F3E.FEFD5175@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2036

Hi --

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> Thanks, Rosemary, for your response to my *long* rant.  I'm saving
> your list of events so that I can sit down with it and my copy of SS.

Rosemary -- I liked your post too.  Very insightful.

> In response to my classmates' assertion that JKR is not writing great
> literature, I've decided this weekend to do my Lit Crit term paper on
> Harry Potter.

Yay!!  Give 'em hell Ebony!  I really despise literary snobbishness!

> If all goes well and my prof sponsors it (not a
> problem), I plan to submit the paper to a conference or two... the
> spring NCTE one comes to mind.  The more English studies professionals
> that write about JKR without being nasty or condenscending, the
> better.

I couldn't agree more.  I've seen this with other literature that I
follow a fair bit.  English prof types always seem to feel that critical
analysis necessitates that they be *critical* & pick *every* detail
apart.  If you're reading this Nancy, you know what I'm referring to!!
The Schafer book appears, from what others have said, to fall into this
category.

> My S.O.S.--
>
> 1)  The only JKR bio I have is the Shapiro one, which we have
> determined is not worth the paper it is printed on.  Where can I find
> good background info *off-line*?  Most English types do not trust
> online sources--my undergrad and grad profs frown/frowned on these.

When I see you next week Ebony, I will be happy to bring copies of the
following if you don't have them: (1) Book magazine spread on JKR
(May/June 2000); Newsweek interview with JKR (July 2000); (3) Times (UK)
interview with her (June 30, 2000); and miscellaneous other interviews.
You will be forced to rely solely on interviews in magazines &
newspapers because there isn't a reliable biography on the market at
this time.  The other thing you could do is request a personal interview
with JKR but . . . . well, this seems unlikely.  <g>

But, all of the ones I can provide you are not solely online sources.  I
would think your profs can't object to using the only secondary sources
available.  I would gather that their objection to online sources is
probably with someone using something like the FAQ on JKR that I'm
writing.  It's gleaned from a variety of different sources, but may or
may not be all that reliable (since your profs have no way of knowing
how reliable or unreliable I, the author of said FAQ, might be).

These interviews that I'm referring to are about as reliable as you're
going to find (short of a personal interview with JKR) -- in each case,
the interviewer spoke directly to JKR (except Book's article but it
squares with all other sources).  The problem with the Shapiro book is
that he didn't take the time to resolve inconsistencies & it appears to
be replete with errors that he or his publishers ignored or didn't
recognize.  Her birthdate is a glaring example -- I've *never* seen an
interview where it's given as anything other than 31 July 1965.  The
fact that he was a year off suggests that he was very very sloppy.  It's
not as though he can say, well the Times interview says 1966.  No.  The
only reason for that particular error was carelessness, rushing to the
printer & shoddy work.

I'm very familiar with all the JKR interviews & such as I have just gone
through them all to make notes for my FAQ.  I do think the 3 I mentioned
are the best sources available & they all agree with one another as to
the basic details & facts.

I wouldn't cite the Shapiro book for *anything* though.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Sep 24 14:51:53 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:51:53 -0000
Subject: Where are FAQs posted?
Message-ID: <8ql4e9+c9fu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2037

Sorry if this is redundant, obvious, etc. -- I sometimes can't see 
the ketsup bottle when it is standing on the refrigerator shelf right 
in front of me -- but where are the FAQs posted?  Could someone add a 
pointer in the Links section?

Thanx
Jim Flanagan




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 14:56:02 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:56:02 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <39CD697D.9E4C3E3B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8ql4m2+533k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2038

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> I thought Lupin didn't want to touch Harry because he didn't want
to 
cause a proud boy to break down at a very vulnerable moment. Teenage 
boys, in my experience, don't like to cry in front of
> people, especially ones they think highly of. I thought he had to 
leave the school because parents would withdraw their children if a 
werewolf were there--it's dangerous. I am amazed at the
> amount of sexual undertones people have found here, and I don't
know 
that they're necessary to explain or justify the love.
> 
> --Amanda

I am also amazed at the sexual undertones we're all finding. What a 
hung-up society we are! Perhaps we're pre-conditioned by other forms 
of pop entertainment to see it everywhere. The amount of sex in real 
life has been greatly exaggerated as well, BTW. We've had proposed 
numerous homosexual couplings without a shred of evidence for any of 
them. For some reason, we don't see as many hetero couplings put 
forward.

I think you're right. Lupin is feeling a lot himself, given his old 
friendship with James and how much Harry is like James.  The
prejudice 
parents feel against Lupin can be compared to prejudice against gays 
or many other groups, but I'm not sure.  JKR's themes are so
universal 
and applicable readers see their own situation in them. It's an 
indicator how well JKR is doing her work.




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 15:09:03 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:09:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are FAQs posted?
References: <8ql4e9+c9fu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE190F.C78726E2@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2039

Hi

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> Sorry if this is redundant, obvious, etc. -- I sometimes can't see
> the ketsup bottle when it is standing on the refrigerator shelf right
> in front of me -- but where are the FAQs posted?  Could someone add a
> pointer in the Links section?
>

They aren't posted yet.  There will be a huge announcement & lots of
hurrahs once we're done.  Most of us writing the FAQs have 1-3 of our 10
completed.  We're still shooting for having them up & running sometime
in October (or at least the majority of them).  Stay posted . . . .

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 15:11:41 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:11:41 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <39CE0BBA.701BDBED@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8ql5jd+c3ck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2040

> She hasn't necessarily ruled out writing books after HP 7

She said she might write a Harry Potter encycplodia after book 7, and 
I think she might even write about Harry Potter JR. I predict Harry 
Potter senior will die on his 19'th birthday one month after he 
marries Ginny; He probably gets bitten by a snake. I seems I recall 
her saying book 7 would cover Harry's last year at school and perhaps 
one year after.   






From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Sun Sep 24 15:13:50 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:13:50 -0000
Subject: Sorting  & Myers/Briggs
Message-ID: <8ql5ne+ht6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2041

Is it possible to relate the 16 Myers/Briggs categories to the four 
houses?  With four independent dimensions, the MB has more than 
enough precision to specify four houses, but I sense that there may 
be something missing -- maybe selfishness/generosity, or even 
good/evil.  

Here are some thoughts on a possible mapping:

iNtuitive/Sensing:
 Gr, Sl: N
 Hu, Ra: S

Introvert/Extravert
 Hu: I
 Gr, Sl, Ra: either

Thinking/Feeling:
 Ra: T
 Gr, Sl, Hu: either

Judging/Perceiving
 Gr: J
 Sl: P
 Hu, Ra: either

-Jim Flanagan (INTP)




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 15:16:13 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:16:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <8qkvcn+n2tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c0263a$611ca600$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2042

NARNIA!  Smiles.  The Hobbit is a great book, but the Lewis tales still hold a dear part in my heart, and I started reading them at age 8 (due to a recommendation in the Reading book in third grade).  They appeal, like HP, to both adults and children.  (Tolkien is good, but just a little bit heavier in my opinion.)
:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Flanagan 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:25 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have been 
  reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a 
  special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or 
  academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer, 
  with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.

  I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his 
  9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in high 
  school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what 
  would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer 
  group reading now (after HP)?

  Thanks
  Jim Flanagan




  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 15:20:38 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:20:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting  & Myers/Briggs
References: <8ql5ne+ht6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE1BC6.8B45113A@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2043

Hi --

Jim Flanagan wrote:

> Is it possible to relate the 16 Myers/Briggs categories to the four
> houses?

See HPforGrownups-Archives at egroups.com -- Message 1435.  There were also
numerous other messages relating to this, but Melanie summarized it all
in message 1435.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 15:26:48 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:26:48 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8ql5jd+c3ck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ql6fo+fua7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2044

Just one month after his marriage to Ginny Harry finds Voldemore and 
has a duel one on one with him. After a titanic struggle he kills 
Voldemore at last, but in the process is bitten by his snake. Harry 
knows that even Phoenix tears can't cure him this time. Ron Hermione 
and Ginny rush to his side, Harry struggles to say something but his 
voice is too weak for them to understand. And then Harry Potter dies, 
it's his nineteenth birthday.

On the last page of the last book it's exactly one year later. Ginny 
can hear the sounds of celebration in the distance, it's Potter day, 
a time for wizards all over the world to honor the memory of a hero. 
She looks down into the brilliant green eyes of her infant son 
cradled in her arms and kisses Harry Potter on the forehead. She sees 
no scar.        





From linsenma at hic.net  Sun Sep 24 15:25:53 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:25:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8ql5jd+c3ck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE1D01.2280591A@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2045

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> She said she might write a Harry Potter encycplodia after book 7,

She's said she's pretty well definitely doing the Encyclopedia.  But,
she also flatly *refuses* to say that she will or will not write any
more HP books after HP 7.  She's holding that card close to her vest.

> and I think she might even write about Harry Potter JR. I predict
> Harry
> Potter senior will die on his 19'th birthday one month after he
> marries Ginny;

Blech!  I can't imagine JKR doing something like leaving either a
teenaged Ginny or Hermione (or any other female character) carrying
Harry's unborn child after his tragic death.

Plus -- I see *no* future for HP & Ginny.  She's a background character.

> I seems I recall her saying book 7 would cover Harry's last year at
> school and perhaps one year after.

I've never heard the "one year after" business.  I've always heard that
the 7 HP books will cover Harry's 7 yrs at Hogwarts, his coming of age
in the wizard world.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 24 15:41:30 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:41:30 -0000
Subject: 1) Lupin 2) Pairings  3) Thanx Ebony1 (was: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qk8rr+g0o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ql7ba+6cmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2046

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " wrote:

> That's something I've never thought of.  But I think that Remus 
> doesn't touch Harry because he doesn't like showing his emotions 
> rather than because he was afraid of any misinterpretations of his 
> actions.  

1. My impression was that Remus has firmly trained himself not to 
touch people uninvited, and he was so moved by Harry's situation that 
the training slipped just a little. Reason for not touching people 
uninvited: remember Ron's reaction to Remus trying to help him with 
the broken leg: "Get off of me, werewolf!" Of course, not touching 
people is just one little part of a huge complex of things he has 
firmly trained himself not to do, such as reveal enough information 
about himself that listeners could guess he's a werewolf, express 
anger, feel pain of being rejected...

2. I don't feel that there is any shortage of heterosexual pairings 
("mixed doubles", I like to say) being proposed by fans (and 
sometimes resulting in flame wars). Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, 
Harry/Cho, Harry/Fleur, Harry/Mary-Sue. Ron/Hermione, Ron/Fleur. 
Hermione/Viktor, Hermione/Neville, Hermione/Draco. Ginny/Neville, 
Ginny/Draco. Dumbledore/McGonagall, Dumbledore/Pomfrey, 
Dumbledore/Mrs. Figg. McGonagall/Hagrid, McGonagall/Snape.

(Some of those suggestions are kind of ridiculous, such as 
McGonagall/Snape and Harry/Fleur. Some get ruled out by later books, 
like McGonagall/Hagrid. Some are based on a great deal of guesswork, 
especially Dumbledore/Mrs. Figg. "Mary-Sue" is the new character who 
is the fanfic author's wish fulfillment self.)

3. Ebony, thank you for saying you liked my S/L ramblings! I typed 
it late at night and didn't realise how long it was until I had 
posted it, and then went to bed worrying that people would be upset 
that it was so long. 




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 15:46:49 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:46:49 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8ql6fo+fua7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ql7l9+btd8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2047

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Just one month after his marriage to Ginny Harry finds Voldemore 
and > has a duel one on one with him. After a titanic struggle he 
kills > Voldemore at last, but in the process is bitten by his snake. 
Harry > knows that even Phoenix tears can't cure him this time. Ron 
Hermione > and Ginny rush to his side, Harry struggles to say 
something but his > voice is too weak for them to understand. And 
then Harry Potter dies, > it's his nineteenth birthday.
> > On the last page of the last book it's exactly one year later. 
Ginny > can hear the sounds of celebration in the distance, it's 
Potter day, > a time for wizards all over the world to honor the 
memory of a hero. > She looks down into the brilliant green eyes of 
her infant son > cradled in her arms and kisses Harry Potter on the 
forehead. She sees > no scar.

Um. I just really can't see JKR doing anything quite so melodramatic 
as all that. Killing off Harry at the age of 19 would be a ghastly 
enough thing to do, and a pregnant 18-year old Ginny? Yikes! One of 
the things I love about the HP books (anyone else?) is their 
avoidance of melodrama -- not that they aren't touching, but they 
tend to avoid large, operatic scenes. The emotion is in the small 
details-- the ghost of Harry's father says "Your mother's coming. She 
wants to see you." Nice short declarative sentences. He doesn't fall 
all over Harry, sobbing "My son!" or anything like that. Thankfully. 
And it works much better that way.
I must say I hope that if JKR ever puts Harry with Ginny, she spends 
some time developing her as a character first. As she is now, she is 
simply not very interesting.




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 24 16:04:52 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:04:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sept. 7 JKR Interview
In-Reply-To: <8qk9u7+1bsl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEMBCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2048

This was a fantastic interview!  I'd never seen it before.  There's lots of
good stuff there, but I think this is my favorite paragraph:

"Harry's horizons are literally
and metaphorically widening as he grows
older. But also there are places in the world
that I've been planning for so long and
thinking about for so long that we haven't yet
explored, and it's great fun. That will happen
in book 5, too; we go into a whole new area,
physically, an area you've never seen before,
a magical world. "


YIPPEEEEEE!!!!  Can't wait, but MUST wait, another ten agonizing months at
least.....

SML


-----Original Message-----
From: Ebony Elizabeth [mailto:ebonyink at hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 12:20 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sept. 7 JKR Interview



Here's *another* link to *another* interview with JKR, taken from
Entertainment Weekly, Sept. 7--

http://www.ew.com/ew/daily/0,2514,3590,jkrowlingexplainswhy.html

Some of the usual, some new information (at least for me it was).  If
this has already been sent, I apologize.

--Ebony


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 24 16:04:26 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:04:26 -0000
Subject: Should HP msrry GW and die?
In-Reply-To: <8ql6fo+fua7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ql8ma+85to@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2049

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Just one month after his marriage to Ginny Harry finds Voldemort
> and has a duel one on one with him. (snip)
> She looks down into the brilliant green eyes of her infant son 
> cradled in her arms and kisses Harry Potter on the forehead. She
> sees no scar.

Combining this post with your other post that describes H falling in 
love with G at the beginning of Book 5, you have written a clear and 
entertaining explanation of your plot, and ended it with the word 
that we have been told will end the series. I don't think it is an 
accurate prediction of what JKR is going to do, partly because I just 
don't believe that she would be so cynical as to create a Harry 
Potter Junior just in case she wants to cash in on some more books. 
Sure, it can be argued that for the hero to die gloriously but leave 
behind a child to comfort the reader that life goes on is both an 
archetypal story and an example of real life (tm), in which human 
beings die but the human species goes on. However, my intuition is 
that JKR's epic is following some other archetype.

Why did you pick Ginny rather than Hermione (or Mary-Sue)? Is it that 
you perceive Ginny as having a great big loving heart with no 
ambition to be distracted by, and thus more able to swamp Harry in an 
ocean of unconditional love, or that you're sure that Hermione 
belongs with Ron (or Viktor)?




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep 24 17:22:37 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:22:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
Message-ID: <v02140b0db5f3e791267e@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2050

>
>Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have been
>reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a
>special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or
>academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer,
>with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.
>
>I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
>9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in high
>school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what
>would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
>group reading now (after HP)?
>
>Thanks
>Jim Flanagan
>
Jim, I'm a bookseller at a Borders Books & Music so I'm an expert at
answering this question.

First, there's the Diane Duane series that begins with "So You Want to Be a
Wizard."  There are I believe three more in the series including "Deep
Wizardy" and "High Wizardry."

Also, "Holes" by Louis Sachar is a popular after-Potter book.  I also
recommend John Bellairs who wrote a series of stories about a young boy
names Lewis Barnevelt who went to live with his Uncle Jonathan who, along
with his across-the-street neighbor Mrs. Zimmerman, is a wizard.  Lewis'
best friend Rose Rita Pottinger also figures largely.  It starts with "The
House with a Clock in Its Walls" and goes on to "A Figure in the Shadows"
and "The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring."

These are all classified as Intermediate fiction, which is usually the 9-12
slot.  None of them are as complex and creative as the Potter books...the
Bellairs series are simpler but creepier and the Duanes are more
fantasy-oriented, Holes isn't really fantasy at all...but they're good.

Never too early for Narnia.  A lot of kids who are a little older, like 12
and up, are reading the Brian Jacques books, which I'm not familiar with
but appear to be a fantasy series something like Terry Goodkind or Robert
Jordan are for adults.  If he's a good reader for his age they might be
okay.  I can't speak to the suitability of the content.

If you can find him any Margert Mahy, rejoice.  She now writes young kids'
books but she used to write really cool young adult supernatural type
books.  PoU readers will be familiar with "The Changeover," I also
recommend "The Tricksters" and "The Catalogue of the Universe," though all
three have romantic elements that may turn off boys and are intended for
slightly older readers.

Hope this helps.
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book: "I'm a Stranger Here Myself" by Bill Bryson
                               "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep 24 16:26:01 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:26:01 -0000
Subject: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
Message-ID: <8ql9up+2d9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2051

I am having a bit of a nitmare at the moment. Messages I am sending 
are not getting through. I think the problem is with my ISP. So I 
apologise in advance if this arrives more than once.

As the chapter 11 discussions have still not commenced I have 
contacted Penny and agreed to do the summary. So here goes on another 
interesting and varied discussion. Yet again the chapter I am 
commenting on is short (11 pages this time), but this time it is much 
more interesting (last time I did chapter 2).


Chapter 11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express

This chapter starts with the triad (I do not like the word 
triumvirate to describe Harry, Ron and Hermione) at the Burrow in the 
aftermath of the Quidditch World Cup and the ensuing chaos. It is 
time for them to go back to school. That, of course, means another 
trip on the Hogwarts Express - the sixth time for Harry and Ron and 
the ninth for Hermione (Hermione goes home for Christmas in the first 
year - I am assuming by the Hogwarts Express. Harry and Ron had a 
slight problem causing them to miss the train in their second year).

We start however with the boys (Harry, Ron and the twins) arriving 
for breakfast to see Amos Diggory on the wizard equivalent of a 
telephone. There is a dual reason for this. On the one hand it is to 
introduce us to this form of communication, which we see used by 
Harry and Sirius shortly before the first task. It is also to give us 
an indication that something has happened to Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody.

In the description of this incident we learn a little about the 
character that is Mad-Eye Moody. We are told that he 'was a great 
wizard' but has 'been getting paranoid in his old age'. We are also 
told of Arthur's plug collection (just had to put this comment in), 
who then rushes off to help out his friend.

It could be argued that this meeting with Amos is an indication that 
Cedric is going to be the one to die at the end of the book. This is 
the second meeting with some of the Diggory family and it is this 
that is turning Cedric into the 'character we care for'. We are 
seeing how his father reacts to help an old friend and extend this 
characteristic to be one that Cedric also possess.

This brings us to the travel to London and the Hogwarts Express. We 
see how little Molly knows about muggles, as she is surprised that 
the taxi drivers seem unhappy at the party they are transporting.

This time Harry, Ron and Hermione pick a carriage in the middle of 
the train. Charlie then gives us a tantalising indication that 
something important is going to be happening that year at Hogwarts 
but will give no details.

Having had an indication of the Beauxbatons school in chapter 9 we 
now learn, from overhearing Draco in a nearby compartment, of 
Durmstrang. We hear that Lucuis contemplated sending Draco to this 
school, as he knows the Headmaster.

Following this Seamus, Dean, Neville and several others drop by to 
say hello. Unfortunately Dean and Seamus have left the door ajar and 
Draco has noticed their presence and come to try and wind them up.

He taunts Ron over his dress robes, which are covering Pigwidgeon's 
cage to shut him up. He then follows up by talking about the 
Triwizard tournament, which Lucius has told him about, but gives away 
few details.

They arrive at Hogsmeade, which is in the middle of a torrential 
downpour, and transfer to one of the carriages to head up towards 
Hogwarts.

Questions and comments (at least those I could think of at 2am while 
watching the Olympics):
Am I making too much of the meeting with Amos pointing towards 
Cedric's death?
Where do the Weasley's live? Most indication and comments, based on 
the first three books, has been that they live in the Devon area but 
suddenly they are using taxis to travel, if the hypothesis is 
correct, a journey of 200 miles. Did someone else pay for the journey?
Are we given enough indication of Mad-Eye's character to work out 
what has occurred? This is when he was replaced and yet are we told 
enough here to work it out? 
Compare the actions of the triad in this chapter with that of 
previous books. They take a more prominent position in the train 
(nearer the front). Is this an indication that Harry is getting more 
used to his fame? Is he less worried and happy that he is going to 
have a 'quiet year'?
Compare the actions of the triad in this chapter with their actions 
on the train home. Ron gets very close to taking action against Draco 
for the taunts. Does this give us an indication of the events of the 
journey home? 


Have I started to sound like a schoolteacher? If so I am off to panic.

Simon





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Sep 24 16:35:05 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:35:05 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Semi-Colons & John Grisham: Literary 
Message-ID: <id.24092000123505.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 2052

Well, I've emailed him, but never heard anything back - so Jim, I'm still here if you want to team up!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of our friend the NY Times -- did anything ever come of Jim & Voicelady's plans to possibly visit the NY Times Book Review offices in person?  I'm still holding out hope . . . .




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 24 16:33:24 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:33:24 -0000
Subject: Sorting/Houses
In-Reply-To: <39CE0594.B01A2045@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qlack+9ddv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2053

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny Linsenmayer wrote: 

> We haven't as yet seen much in the way of inter-House friendships

That's because we're looking from Harry's PoV. Harry and Ron, having 
met on the train, would be friends even if one of them had been 
sorted into Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, but they fortunately got sorted 
into the same house. Harry is so busy with Quidditch practise (and 
the Tournament in book 4) that he doesn't join any clubs, so all the 
reader is told about clubs at Hogwarts is when a notice is put on the 
bulletin board that a Dueling Club is being started. Students from 
all Houses showed up at the first meeting of the Dueling Club. I 
think there are many clubs at Hogwarts, that putting a notice on the 
Bulletin Board is the normal way to found a club or to start it up 
again after summer break, and that clubs that last longer than the 
first meeting lead to inter-house friendships.




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Sep 24 16:36:44 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:36:44 +0200
Subject: Redwall
References: <v02140b0db5f3e791267e@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <002601c02645$a1048200$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2054

> Never too early for Narnia.  A lot of kids who are a little older, like 12
> and up, are reading the Brian Jacques books, which I'm not familiar with
> but appear to be a fantasy series something like Terry Goodkind or Robert
> Jordan are for adults.  If he's a good reader for his age they might be
> okay.  I can't speak to the suitability of the content.

Oh, Redwall if fine for a fourth-grader - I started the series then, and
could have read it earlier if I'd known about it. ::Grins:: Our teacher was
reading 'Mossflower' (a prequel to Redwall) aloud in class, and I loved it
so much I went and bought the book and finished it myself.

~Firebolt




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 16:43:02 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:43:02 -0000
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0db5f3e791267e@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <8qlaum+m8sq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2055

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> >
> >Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have 
been
> >reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a
> >special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or
> >academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer,
> >with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.
> >
> >I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
> >9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in 
high
> >school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what
> >would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
> >group reading now (after HP)?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Jim Flanagan
> >
> First, there's the Diane Duane series that begins with "So You Want 
to Be a
> Wizard."  There are I believe three more in the series 
including "Deep
> Wizardy" and "High Wizardry."
> 
> Also, "Holes" by Louis Sachar is a popular after-Potter book.  I 
also
> recommend John Bellairs who wrote a series of stories about a young 
boy
> names Lewis Barnevelt who went to live with his Uncle Jonathan who, 
along
> with his across-the-street neighbor Mrs. Zimmerman, is a wizard.  


I'd agree with all Lori's recommendations and add one author: Diana 
Wynne Jones. I've given her books to all my little cousins who loved 
Harry Potter and they've been huge successes. She's British, like 
JKR, so while her books might be a bit harder to find than others, 
they have a very British/HP charm and a spectacular sense of humor -- 
they absolutely make you laugh out loud. They're classified as 
intermediate as well. She wrote a fabulous series about a boy who 
discovers he has nine lives and is therefore a powerful wizard 
called "The Lives of Christopher Chant" as well as some other 
favorites ... "Howl's Moving Castle" about a charming dark wizard who 
turns out to be not as bad as everyone thinks, and "Archer's Goon" 
which is impossible to describe but so funny that I must have read it 
a dozen times. I know you can get her books off amazon.co.uk...I've 
got them all.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 17:32:21 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:32:21 -0000
Subject: Slytherins (was Sorting)
In-Reply-To: <39CD21EC.F2FCD6C2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qldr5+ji02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2056

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
[snip]
> I just don't like the idea of all the Slytherins being nasty.
> Seems too simplistic, and I don't think Rowling's a simplistic 
writer.  And
> really, if all the Slytherins HAVE to be nasty and evil, would 
Dumbledore
> let the Slytherin house continue?  Would parents be willing to keep 
sending
> their kids there? (Other than the Deatheaters, of course).
> 
> Peg
> Who holds out hope for some nobility in the Slytherins, somewhere 
(even
> Draco).

Good point, Peg.  This also, IMHO, adds to my argument that the 
Marauders were Slytherins.  I think that the Slytherins have gotten 
their bad reputation in recent years since the rise of Voldy (since 
so many Slyths were associated with him), but that previously (and 
perhaps still, to some degree) it was just the house of the more 
ambitious and cunning, but not necessarily evil or nasty, types.  
There is much speculation that James was an Auror; clearly he made a 
lot of money (OK, he MAY have inherited it).  Wouldnt ambition and 
cunning be good qualities for an Auror, not to mention for someone to 
make a lot of money?  Pettigrew is clearly ambitious; his problem is 
that he threw his lot in with the wrong side.  And although Lupin is 
clearly a very nice guy, he is ALSO a wolf, and wolves are certainly 
cunning.  And becoming unregistered Animagi right under Dumbledores 
nose, without Dumbly tumbling to it, shows a helluva lot of cunning 
and ambition.  Also, it sounds as if the 4 Marauders, when they were 
younger, were not exactly the most sensitive guys in the world.  
Remember in PoA Lupin says something about how, even though running 
around as a wolf was dangerous - he could have killed someone 
accidently - that the 4 of them were so taken with themselves and 
their cleverness that they didnt really think about the dangers to 
other people?

The Sorting Hat knows that Harry has Slytherin-like qualities; maybe 
he doesnt ONLY get his Slytherin-like characteristics from 
his encounter with Voldy.

The only real argument against the marauders being Slytherins is that 
you would think Draco would lord it over Harry: *You think you 
Gryffindors are so superior - but your famous father was in MY 
house.*  Of course, maybe Draco doesnt mention it because he is 
embarassed.   Or maybe he doesnt know, because Lucius and the other 
older Slytherins are too embarrassed, or angry, to talk about it.

-- Joywitch




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 17:35:37 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:35:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 1) Lupin 2) Pairings  3) Thanx Ebony1 (was: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8ql7ba+6cmt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c0264d$dabc88a0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2057

You forgot my favorite, lol.  Harry/Ron!  Grins, or Harry/Draco, or Ron/Draco...  Why do people always forget the non-hetro-relationships?  I am not saying that they will occur, but if you through in Harry/Ginny, you have to also include the other even if they are more outrageous!

Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, 
Harry/Cho, Harry/Fleur, Harry/Mary-Sue. Ron/Hermione, Ron/Fleur. 
Hermione/Viktor, Hermione/Neville, Hermione/Draco. Ginny/Neville, 
Ginny/Draco. Dumbledore/McGonagall, Dumbledore/Pomfrey, 
Dumbledore/Mrs. Figg. McGonagall/Hagrid, McGonagall/Snape.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Sep 24 17:46:15 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:46:15 -0000
Subject: Semi-Colons & John Grisham
In-Reply-To: <8qjlfg+kebr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qlel7+qt2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2058

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, coriolan at w... wrote:
> > I'm sure we all know folks who - without having read any of the 
> > books - dismiss the Harry Potter series as children books. (A 
> Muggles 
> > co-worker told me that she "knew" that Harry Potter was written 
at 
> a 
> > first-grade level so American children can read the story without 
> > help). Meanwhile, my adult friends demonstrate their *gravitas* 
by 
> > reading the ouevre of John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall and Tom 
> Clancy.
> > 
> 
> I know no one who reads John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall or Tom 
> Clancy...it was somewhat exciting for me to be au courant with 
> popular culture through reading HP...
> 
> my friends are reading Gecko Tails and Blanche Cook's bio of 
Eleanor 
> Roosevelt (Vol II).......

Susan, I dont mean to offend, but I find the above remark uncalled 
for.  The person you responded to was expressing anger at people who 
put down HP books for their supposed questionable literary merit when 
their reading tastes consist of books with clearly questionable 
literary merit.  This, IMHO, is reasonable - those people are being 
hypocritical.  Your comment, however, was a somewhat snobby put-down 
of all people (whether hypocrits or not) who happen to like to read 
books with clearly questionable literary merit.  This is unfair; 
people who read Grisham, etc. arent inferior to your friends who read 
biographies. Sorry to go off on a rant here, but I hate snobbery, and 
yes I sometimes read books with clearly questionable literary merit, 
and other times I even read biographies.

-- Joywitch




From particle at urbanet.ch  Sun Sep 24 18:14:36 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:14:36 +0200
Subject: Non-hetero Pairings (Was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: 1) Lupin 2) Pairings 3) Thanx Ebony1)
References: <8ql7ba+6cmt@eGroups.com> <001d01c0264d$dabc88a0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c02653$4c880ea0$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2059

So, our list of slash pairings:

Harry/Draco, Harry/Ron, Harry/Cedric, Harry/Sirius (is it just me, or is
that quasi-incestuous?), Ron/Draco, Sirius/Remus, Snape/Remus,
Dumbledore/Snape, Dumbledore/Sirius.

And those are only the more common ones. There are many more (often more
outrageous) pairings.

~Firebolt

> You forgot my favorite, lol.  Harry/Ron!  Grins, or Harry/Draco, or
Ron/Draco...  Why do people always forget the non-hetro-relationships?  I am
not saying that they will occur, but if you through in Harry/Ginny, you have
to also include the other even if they are more outrageous!
>
> Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny,
> Harry/Cho, Harry/Fleur, Harry/Mary-Sue. Ron/Hermione, Ron/Fleur.
> Hermione/Viktor, Hermione/Neville, Hermione/Draco. Ginny/Neville,
> Ginny/Draco. Dumbledore/McGonagall, Dumbledore/Pomfrey,
> Dumbledore/Mrs. Figg. McGonagall/Hagrid, McGonagall/Snape.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 19:23:59 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:23:59 -0400
Subject: CHAT!
Message-ID: <000c01c0265c$ffe1aac0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2060

I seemed to be missing alot of folks here in chat!  The room is open, the scroll is going, and Brooksindy and I are in, but only Dennis (whom I missed, by that (pinches) much!) has popped in.

Come and join us.  I am assuming the discussion is Simon's essay on ch. 11!    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep 24 14:58:26 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:58:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are FAQs posted?
In-Reply-To: <8ql4e9+c9fu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGELOCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2061

"Sorry if this is redundant, obvious, etc. -- I sometimes can't see the
ketsup bottle when it is standing on the refrigerator shelf right in front
of me -- but where are the FAQs posted?  Could someone add a pointer in the
Links section?"

At the moment a group of us are still in the process of writing the FAQ's.
There is some general group information located at:
http://www.geocities.com/ravenclawlady/grownups.html and this is where the
FAQ's will be when they are finished (or so I believe).

Simon




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Sep 24 14:55:21 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:55:21 +0100
Subject: GoF Ch11 Discussion
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMELNCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2062

As the chapter 11 discussions have still not commenced I have contacted
Penny and agreed to do the summary. So here goes on another interesting and
varied discussion. Yet again the chapter I am commenting on is short (11
pages this time), but this time it is much more interesting (last time I did
chapter 2).


Chapter 11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express

This chapter starts with the triad (I do not like the word triumvirate to
describe Harry, Ron and Hermione) at the Burrow in the aftermath of the
Quidditch World Cup and the ensuing chaos. It is time for them to go back to
school. That, of course, means another trip on the Hogwarts Express - the
sixth time for Harry and Ron and the ninth for Hermione (Hermione goes home
for Christmas in the first year - I am assuming by the Hogwarts Express.
Harry and Ron had a slight problem causing them to miss the train in their
second year).

We start however with the boys (Harry, Ron and the twins) arriving for
breakfast to see Amos Diggory on the wizard equivalent of a telephone. There
is a dual reason for this. On the one hand it is to introduce us to this
form of communication, which we see used by Harry and Sirius shortly before
the first task. It is also to give us an indication that something has
happened to Alastor 'Mad-Eye' Moody.

In the description of this incident we learn a little about the character
that is Mad-Eye Moody. We are told that he 'was a great wizard' but has
'been getting paranoid in his old age'. We are also told of Arthur's plug
collection (just had to put this comment in), who then rushes off to help
out his friend.

It could be argued that this meeting with Amos is an indication that Cedric
is going to be the one to die at the end of the book. This is the second
meeting with some of the Diggory family and it is this that is turning
Cedric into the 'character we care for'. We are seeing how his father reacts
to help an old friend and extend this characteristic to be one that Cedric
also possess.

This brings us to the travel to London and the Hogwarts Express. We see how
little Molly knows about muggles, as she is surprised that the taxi drivers
seem unhappy at the party they are transporting.

This time Harry, Ron and Hermione pick a carriage in the middle of the
train. Charlie then gives us a tantalising indication that something
important is going to be happening that year at Hogwarts but will give no
details.

Having had an indication of the Beauxbatons school in chapter 9 we now
learn, from overhearing Draco in a nearby compartment, of Durmstrang. We
hear that Lucuis contemplated sending Draco to this school, as he knows the
Headmaster.

Following this Seamus, Dean, Neville and several others drop by to say
hello. Unfortunately Dean and Seamus have left the door ajar and Draco has
noticed their presence and come to try and wind them up.

He taunts Ron over his dress robes, which are covering Pigwidgeon's cage to
shut him up. He then follows up by talking about the Triwizard tournament,
which Lucius has told him about, but gives away few details.

They arrive at Hogsmeade, which is in the middle of a torrential downpour,
and transfer to one of the carriages to head up towards Hogwarts.

Questions and comments (at least those I could think of at 2am while
watching the Olympics):
Am I making too much of the meeting with Amos pointing towards Cedric's
death?
Where do the Weasley's live? Most indication and comments, based on the
first three books, has been that they live in the Devon area but suddenly
they are using taxis to travel, if the hypothesis is correct, a journey of
200 miles. Did someone else pay for the journey?
Are we given enough indication of Mad-Eye's character to work out what has
occurred? This is when he was replaced and yet are we told enough here to
work it out?
Compare the actions of the triad in this chapter with that of previous
books. They take a more prominent position in the train (nearer the front).
Is this an indication that Harry is getting more used to his fame? Is he
less worried and happy that he is going to have a 'quiet year'?
Compare the actions of the triad in this chapter with their actions on the
train home. Ron gets very close to taking action against Draco for the
taunts. Does this give us an indication of the events of the journey home?


Have I started to sound like a schoolteacher? If so I am off to panic.

Simon




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 19:34:22 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:34:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qk19a+ri67@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE573E.7CA630A4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2063

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Amanda, in the context of the story you are absolutely right..I was
> seeing it as a metaphor --

Ah.

--Amanda




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 24 19:40:54 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:40:54 -0700
Subject: Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <8qldr5+ji02@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2064


What's amazing is that neither Harry nor Hermione has ever shown any
indication of investigating James and Lily's school or life history.  I know
Harry has had curiosity drummed out of him by the Dursleys, but you'd think
that four years in a nurturing environment like Hogwarts would lead to a
LITTLE curiosity about his parents' lives.  Hermione would be more the type
to do the research, but you'd think she'd pass on any startling news (such
as one or both of his parents being Slytherins) to him by now.  We do know
that Harry has never discussed his near-assignment to Slytherin House by the
Sorting Hat with anyone but Dumbledore.

Such a lack of curiosity almost defies belief.  We know he spends time
looking at the photo album that Hagrid assembled for him.  Why wouldn't he
want to read the details of what happened the night his mortal enemy,
Voldemort, killed his parents?

Could JKR really be sitting on some bombshell and expect us to take the news
without questioning why it was withheld for so many years?  I dunno.....



-----Original Message-----
From: Joywitch [mailto:joym999 at aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 10:32 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins (was Sorting)

Good point, Peg.  This also, IMHO, adds to my argument that the
Marauders were Slytherins.
-- Joywitch




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:39:37 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:39:37 -0000
Subject: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
In-Reply-To: <8ql9up+2d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qll9p+hm7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2065

<<Am I making too much of the meeting with Amos pointing towards 
Cedric's death?>>
No, not at all.  This scene is important in letting us get to know 
Amos, as well as in developing his character.  It is interesting to 
compare his friendly attitude in this scene with the way he acts 
towards Harry after Harry becomes the fourth champion, and then in 
the way his manner changes again after Cedric's death.  It is 
important for us to get to know both Amos and Cedric for Cedric's 
death to have the proper impact, and JKR does an excellent job of 
introducing them, considering that at the beginning of GoF Cedric was 
no more than a name heard once or twice, while at the end, he seemed 
like an old friend.
In the very interesting JKR interview of a few weeks ago (post 2018) 
she mentions in passing that she absolutely *hated* killing Cedric.  
So why did she do it?  I've noticed before that he could have been 
kept alive with only minimal plot changes; there would be some subtle 
but important shifts in theme and the effects on Harry, but I think 
there must be some greater reason for killing Cedric than we've seen 
yet.  What kind of possible repurcussions could the death have in 
Book 5?




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 19:39:26 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:39:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  S/L and other MWPP matters
References: <8qk5ke+b05i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE586E.3911D717@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2066

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> > This is of course an entirely different plot line from the one in
> > which he was raised from birth (or earlier) to serve Lord V.
>
> What a fascinating theory, Rita!  I was thinking the above, since it
> was stated that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more about the Dark
> Arts than many seventh years did.  Your scenario was believable, not
> to mention an enjoyable read.

I'll second that---good thinking, there. Snape seems to have more than a trace of the classic "little man" syndrome, where someone's been picked on so much they almost assume any attention is
derogatory. That fits with your scenario. Very well done.

--Amanda




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep 24 19:43:16 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:43:16 -0000
Subject: Snape theory
In-Reply-To: <8qjre4+5m57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qllgk+g11h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2067

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, lmrourke at s... wrote:

> just wondered if anyone else have ever thought that perhaps Snape
is 
> an unregistered Animagus too?  What made me think of this was what 
> Dumbledore says in GoF when he is in the hospital room (with Harry, 
> Sirius in dog form, Snape, Ron, Hermione and Mrs. Weasley). He 
> says "And now, it is time for two of our number to recognize each 
> other for what they are.  Sirius...if you could resume your usual 
> form."  WHAT they are?   Maybe this is how Snape was/will be able
to 
> spy on Voldemort again.  Just a thought.

I took that to mean, Sirius has to recognize Snape as On The Side Of 
The Good Guys, which is certainly *not* something that would've 
occured to Sirius in the previous year.




From pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:46:01 2000
From: pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com (Pogonia the Harry Potter fan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:46:01 EDT
Subject: 1) /~sognirjari  2) Lily's House and Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <F242dk4RA59w1PAylAQ000036ec@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2068

First, about the Doomspell Potion fic and the /~sognirjari site: The page is 
being moved to http://home.att.net/~Doomspell/ and rebuilt to accommodate 
the last two chapters of DP and the forthcoming illustrations by Morwen.  
Last time I checked there was a message to that effect at the site.

Re Lily's house and the logical processes we should use to deduce it:  
Whereas in real life the simplest explanation fitting the facts is generally 
the best explanation (Occam's razor), it doesn't work that way in "mystery" 
fiction since the author always sets up the readers to ignore or discount 
some essential fact.  If Lily turns out to have been a Slytherin, fans 
everywhere will nod knowingly and claim that her green eyes were an obvious 
foreshadowing.  BTW, does anyone know if Tom Riddle's eye color was ever 
specified in CoS?

Best regards,
Pogonia
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 19:46:11 2000
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforths_Goat)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:46:11 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT!
References: <000c01c0265c$ffe1aac0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c02660$17960f00$f300a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2069

Just wanted to say hi!

I'm going through a very rough patch at work and don't have the time and
energy to drop by much just now.  But have a great chat, and I hope to be
back and bleeting within short order.

Baaaaack soon!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
http://profiles.yahoo.com/aberforths_goat





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:46:26 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:46:26 -0000
Subject: Narnia/JKR Parallel (was Recommended Book for 4th Grader)
In-Reply-To: <00c601c0263a$611ca600$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qllmi+julj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2070

I second Dee's vote for the Narnia series.  I've just thought of 
something--the main character of the prequel to *The Lion, The Witch, 
and the Wardrobe* was named Digory.  I'm now wondering if there are 
any parallels or contrasts between the star of *The Magician's 
Nephew* and Cedric Diggory of GoF fame.

BTW, Jim, I had what L.M. Montgomery's Emily termed "a white night" 
in which I didn't sleep at all.  Went to bed around 7:30 a.m., slept 
through both church services (horrors!) and am having a *very* 
difficult time getting started on my errands/dinner/wash/1000 things 
to do.

--Ebony 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> NARNIA!  Smiles.  The Hobbit is a great book, but the Lewis tales 
still hold a dear part in my heart, and I started reading them at age 
8 (due to a recommendation in the Reading book in third grade).  They 
appeal, like HP, to both adults and children.  (Tolkien is good, but 
just a little bit heavier in my opinion.)
> :)
> Dee
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jim Flanagan 
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:25 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
> 
> 
> 
>        
>        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  
> 
> 
>   Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have 
been 
>   reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a 
>   special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or 
>   academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer, 
>   with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.
> 
>   I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for 
his 
>   9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in 
high 
>   school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me 
what 
>   would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer 
>   group reading now (after HP)?
> 
>   Thanks
>   Jim Flanagan
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 19:48:15 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:48:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying
References: <8ql1a4+g1nr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE5A7E.348053E5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2071

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

>         Wouldn't Mary Poppins have been at Hogwarts about the same time as
> Hagrid and Riddle? Where did Hagrid's umbrella come from anyway? I
> smell a fanfic here

Nope, Mary Poppins was an adult woman in 1910, when she wafted into Jane and
Michael's lives. Riddle was a teenager in the 1940s. Sorry.

--Amanda, who's seen just about enough Disney movies now to last her seven
lifetimes




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:55:14 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:55:14 -0000
Subject: Redwall (recommended fantasy reads for fourth graders)
In-Reply-To: <002601c02645$a1048200$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8qlm72+v6vj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2072

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> > Oh, Redwall if fine for a fourth-grader - I started the series 
then, and
> could have read it earlier if I'd known about it. ::Grins:: Our 
teacher was
> reading 'Mossflower' (a prequel to Redwall) aloud in class, and I 
loved it
> so much I went and bought the book and finished it myself.

One of my students brought me *Redwall* the other week.  He's in 
fifth grade.  He did so because he said he knew of a series that was 
much better than Harry Potter, which was "kid stuff".

He'll change his tune by the time our class gets finished with 
him.  :-)  Especially since the recent firing of one of my colleagues 
(bad) left me with several HP-crazed sixth grade teacher's aides who 
are anxious to make the Hogwarts month even more fun than it was for 
them last year via decorations, games and more (good).

BTW, has anyone seen any HP Halloween stuff yet?  I haven't.  And all 
I want for Christmas 2000 and 2001 are HP porcelain dolls.  Can't 
wait until Danbury or one of the other dollmakers start rolling 'em 
out.  ;)

--Ebony





From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 19:53:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 14:53:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.
References: <8qk7pf+atks@eGroups.com> <39CE0F3E.FEFD5175@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39CE5BB4.A6480732@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2073

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> The other thing you could do is request a personal interview
> with JKR but . . . . well, this seems unlikely.  <g>

Ebony, it never hurts to ask. I'd query the publisher about the likelihood
of any sort of quick phone interview. Explain what you're writing and where
you got the idea, offer to show them a copy before you turn it in if you
want, and see what they say. I've had doors opened before that I expected to
be firmly slammed---give it a whirl.

--Amanda




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 24 18:35:20 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:35:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8ql6fo+fua7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2074

Wow, poor Harry - you certainly seem to see a gloomy future for him! *g*
You're not Sybill Trelawney in disguise are you?

I find all this hypothesis fascinating, but I have to agree with Penny and
Cassandra (great fics, BTW Cassandra - I'm a new reader of your Draco
series' and I can't wait for a new chapter - you made me LOL so many
times...and Penny, also looking forward hugely to the next episode of yours
and Carole's opus) I can't see JKR being quite so melodramatic...quite apart
from Cassandra's point that her most touching moments are the most
understated (quite aside from James and Lily's appearance in GoF, I always
get really teary in PoA when Dumbledore tells Harry that he did see his
father, as Prongs rode again...) she deliberately deflates the most
melodramatic and OTT situations and characters (Professor Trelawney,
Professor Lockhart) and most of the characters seem to have lessons to learn
along the way.  Personally, I think Harry will make it to the end of the
series alive, but it will have been a tough journey, with plenty of
heartache, soulsearching and loss along the way - we've already heard as
much from JKR - right now, I'm not prepared to put money on anyone else
making it to the end alive, knowing the way JKR can pull the rug from under
our feet (though I think one of the least likely to cark it is Hermione) but
I think Harry will be there for sure.   I kind of see it in the manner of a
Shakespearean comedy or romance - there has to be real loss or serious
threat of loss to make the victory at the end really mean something - and I
think there will be an unequivocal victory for Harry at the end, even if it
is a bittersweet one.  I've spent a few tortuous hours trying to work who is
going to die that upsets JKR to even think about - I was always convinced it
would be Dumbledore, but recent discussion has had me very worried about
Ron...

Alix

----- Original Message -----
From: <eggplant88 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 4:26 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?


>
> Just one month after his marriage to Ginny Harry finds Voldemore and
> has a duel one on one with him. After a titanic struggle he kills
> Voldemore at last, but in the process is bitten by his snake. Harry
> knows that even Phoenix tears can't cure him this time. Ron Hermione
> and Ginny rush to his side, Harry struggles to say something but his
> voice is too weak for them to understand. And then Harry Potter dies,
> it's his nineteenth birthday.
>
> On the last page of the last book it's exactly one year later. Ginny
> can hear the sounds of celebration in the distance, it's Potter day,
> a time for wizards all over the world to honor the memory of a hero.
> She looks down into the brilliant green eyes of her infant son
> cradled in her arms and kisses Harry Potter on the forehead. She sees
> no scar.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 24 20:10:53 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:10:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
References: <8qkocn+m6ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c02663$94a912a0$3d8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2075


>
> Remember the rule of logic called Occam's Razor: The simplest
> explanation that covers the facts is to be preferred. When we build
> these spun-sugar castles of fancy that has Lily as a closet Death
> Eater or whatever, we're almost certainly going down the wrong path.

Ah, where's the fun in that? ;)  The off-the-wall suggestions are the most
fun to come up with.  However, while I admit that the closet Death Eater one
is highly unlikely, the Lily Slytherin one would make a plausible and
satisfying one in terms of plot development.  Everyone's been talking about
the redemption of Slytherin and how it could occur, and Lily being a member
would provide a very good avenue for it.  Don't rule it out just yet.

Jinx




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 20:04:14 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:04:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Semi-Colons & John Grisham
References: <8qlel7+qt2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE5E3D.267E045B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2076

Joywitch wrote:

> Sorry to go off on a rant here, but I hate snobbery, and
> yes I sometimes read books with clearly questionable literary merit,
> and other times I even read biographies.

Heck, some of my best friends read bodice-rippers......

--Amanda, who wishes she had the time anymore




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:08:40 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:08:40 -0000
Subject: More Pairings
In-Reply-To: <001d01c0264d$dabc88a0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qln08+rkug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2077

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:

"You forgot my favorite, lol.  Harry/Ron!  Grins, or Harry/Draco, or 
Ron/Draco...  Why do people always forget the non-hetro-
relationships?  I am not saying that they will occur, but if you 
through in Harry/Ginny, you have to also include the other even if 
they are more outrageous!" 

There's a new Marauders slash fic up at ff.net.  The first I've ever 
seen that wasn't too outrageous, too graphic, or too poorly written 
for words.  It's a Remus/Sirius fic, and within hours of posting it 
had more than 30+ reviews.  (This is yet another good way of 
determining whether a fic is worth a look.)  Slash is generally not 
my cup of tea (though I do think that in some fandoms, like Xena, it 
is the most plausible pairing), but this one is well written.  The 
author has Sirius' character *down*, and while Remus is slightly OOC, 
it's not jarring.  Can't recall the author or the title at the 
moment... if any of the other regular fic readers know, please post 
the link.  Thanks.

BTW, my fave non-H/H pairing is becoming Draco/Ginny.  Cassandra's 
Draco and Lori's Ginny are a match made in heaven.  Talk about 
fireworks!  Lucius and Arthur would disown them both on the spot... 
Ron and Harry would contemplate murder... Narcissa would sniff with 
contempt.  Hermione might understand eventually, but not at first.  
As for the two of them, the pairing would scorch the page (or the 
computer screen, depending on your medium of choice).  The 
possibilities!

--Ebony




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 20:06:32 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:06:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <8qkvcn+n2tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE5EC8.FBD476CC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2078

I'd vote for Narnia, as a wonderful detailed tapestry of a world, which has
engaging characters, good moral texture, dovetails into our world, and is
packaged in nice easy-to-read volumes. But nobody's mentioned Lloyd
Alexander, whose Chronicles of Prydain were wonderful (and not *near* done
justice to by Disney in The Black Cauldron).

--Amanda




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Sun Sep 24 20:20:18 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:20:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Semi-Colons & John Grisham: Literary Merit; NY Times
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com> <39CE07E2.A2B66E5@hic.net>
Message-ID: <002101c02664$ed97af60$3d8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2079


> (Penny assumes best Hermione-like voice): No, no, no, no  . . .
> no!!!!!  JKR has said repeatedly that she wrote the books for herself &
> that she never set out to write a childrens' series.  The first volumes
> happen to feature a pre-adolescent boy as the protagonist, but that does
> not make them a childrens' series or make their intended audience
> entirely children.  Besides, I have a very hard time believing that JKR
> is writing any of this to be black & white.

I can see the first two as being aimed at kids and young people.  But PoA
and GoF?
No way.  Not just at kids anyway.  The last two are just far too "adult" (in
a non-sexual sense) in my view.  HP may have started out relatively black
and white, but things are getting ever greyer by the book.


Jinx




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:14:43 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:14:43 -0000
Subject: Snape; AK in Harry's future?; AvEda Kedavra
In-Reply-To: <8qgnic+276v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qlnbj+6ush@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2080

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> A friend who is now reading my GoF has suggested Snape needs sort 
>of the converse of Vicki's suggestion as to what Remus needs. (which 
> was "A good meal, a good rest, and to get laid").  The suggestion 
>is that SNAPE needs to be gotten drunk, some good shampoo, and to be 
> taken to a bordello, which might dramatically improve HIS 
>attitude.  

Not to degrade the tone of this message board <g>, but I volunteer to 
supply the single-malt Scotch, Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Shampoo, 
and ... the rest. 

I'd even throw in some chocolate.

OK, I'll stop fantasizing now...

ht




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 20:15:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:15:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <39CE60D8.D1E3AA6C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2081

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> What's amazing is that neither Harry nor Hermione has ever shown any
> indication of investigating James and Lily's school or life history.  I know
> Harry has had curiosity drummed out of him by the Dursleys, but you'd think
> that four years in a nurturing environment like Hogwarts would lead to a
> LITTLE curiosity about his parents' lives.

They may have, like so many of us, simply assumed they knew. Or one or both may,
in fact, know, and the information has not yet been passed on to us, the
readers. A bombshell isn't always a bombshell to the characters involved, but it
always is to the readers.

I always get the feeling that Harry holds his mental construct of his parents
delicately, like a piece of jewelry one treasures and doesn't wear so it won't
get hurt. And he's still adjusting to the parts he *does* know. He still has
only known the truth about them for four years, and it's been a pretty busy four
years, and the only time he's not busy is when he's at the Dursleys', when
investigation is pretty much out of the question. Nor has he had a lot of
quality time with the best source for most of this sort of intimate information,
Sirius. I'm betting this kind of thing will be a lot more developed in the later
books.

--Amanda





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:20:55 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:20:55 -0000
Subject: Ebony's S.O.S.
In-Reply-To: <39CE5BB4.A6480732@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qlnn7+kv9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2082

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> 
> > The other thing you could do is request a personal interview
> > with JKR but . . . . well, this seems unlikely.  <g>
> 
> Ebony, it never hurts to ask. I'd query the publisher about the 
likelihood
> of any sort of quick phone interview. Explain what you're writing 
and where
> you got the idea, offer to show them a copy before you turn it in 
if you
> want, and see what they say. I've had doors opened before that I 
expected to
> be firmly slammed---give it a whirl.
> 
> --Amanda

So have I.  It's just that I don't have the time right now that such 
persistence would require.  That's why I'll save the more outrageous 
aspects of this reading for another time.  The tone of my draft is 
quite complimentary... psychoanalytic criticism by nature is both 
probing and reaching.  It'll be hard to do, but by using only the 
essentials from Freud and relying heavily on Lacan's theories, I'm 
trying to avoid any offensive conclusions re: any sexual implications 
inherent in PoA's ending.  Again, hard to do--if you know Freud, you 
know sex is *everything*--"the rest is just details".  As a fan-
critic, I really am toeing the line in order not to offend.

And you say you've watched enough Disney movies for several 
lifetimes?  Oh, no!  You can never tire of Disney.  It's all sappy 
and sentimental corruption of archetypal fairy tales, true, but what 
I'm learning this semester is that every culture takes myths 
inherited from elsewhere and interprets/alters them according to 
their needs.  (For instance, *Oedipus Rex* is *not* the original 
version.  Neither are the Grimm fairy tales.)  Sometimes we all need 
a break from the cynicism and pace of the adult world. 

Take a vacation from it, but always, always find your way back to the 
Magic Kingdom!  

--Ebony (AKA Mouseketeer for life)




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 20:23:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:23:04 -0500
Subject: Snape's holiday
References: <8qlnbj+6ush@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE62A7.F6D2383@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2083

ht wrote:

> Not to degrade the tone of this message board <g>, but I volunteer to
> supply the single-malt Scotch, Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Shampoo,
> and ... the rest.
>
> I'd even throw in some chocolate.

Especially if Snape *does* turn out to remarkably resemble Alan Rickman...

--Amanda, who's kidding herself, her hormones are all off doing Mom-things




From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 20:24:48 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:24:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.
References: <8qlnn7+kv9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE6310.9FF36F5B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2084

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> The tone of my draft is
> quite complimentary... psychoanalytic criticism by nature is both
> probing and reaching.  It'll be hard to do, but by using only the
> essentials from Freud and relying heavily on Lacan's theories, I'm
> trying to avoid any offensive conclusions re: any sexual implications
> inherent in PoA's ending.  Again, hard to do--if you know Freud, you
> know sex is *everything*--"the rest is just details".

Okay, but remember, sometimes a wand is just a wand.

--Amanda




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:30:06 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:30:06 -0000
Subject: 1: ~sognirjari/  2: prophecy   3: Ilya Kuryakin  4: S/L
In-Reply-To: <8qk2da+qeoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qlo8e+j4vr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2085

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Thus, Severus 
> joins the Death Eaters (and get marked) without realizing what he's 
> doing until he participates in his first murder. Which disgusts him 
> at the time and gives him nightmares ever after (altho' soldiers 
>get used to it!), so he turns himself in.

Rita, I really like your theory. I've been playing with a similar 
one, in which Snape has been going along with Muggle- and Mudblood-
torture, but when the DEs he's with bring in a pureblood wizard who's 
been working against Voldemort (to really make it nasty, what if it 
was someone who was at school with him?), he starts to question what 
he's doing.

Just my $.02, and that's overpriced.

ht




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:38:29 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:38:29 -0000
Subject: OT In Defense of Ripping Bodices (was Semi-Colons & John Grisham)
In-Reply-To: <39CE5E3D.267E045B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qloo5+g3pd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2086

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> > Sorry to go off on a rant here, but I hate snobbery, and
> > yes I sometimes read books with clearly questionable literary 
merit,
> > and other times I even read biographies.
> 
> Heck, some of my best friends read bodice-rippers......

--Amanda, who wishes she had the time anymore

I wish I did too, but then I'd have to unsub from AOL.  Priorities 
are priorities, eh?

My bodice-rippers are all by two authors:  Virginia Henley 
(specializes in Plantagenet intrigue) and Beverly Jenkins 
(specializes in African-American historicals).  They're stacked 
neatly on a shelf of their own right under the Gary Jennings/Orson 
Scott Card/Ursula LeGuin shelf (where my extra HP copies also reside) 
and right above the paperback editions of my classics.

I learned more history from my friends' "romance novel trading club" 
in middle school and ninth grade than I did in any history class 
until AP American.  Some are pointless, but some of these women do 
more research in their chosen period than many field experts.  The 
fact that they *are* women causes their work to sometimes be devalued 
and unfairly pidgeonholed.  For instance, Jennings' "Aztec" is 
historical romance IMO, but he is not categorized as such.  Then 
again, his unusual pairings (you name the "alternative" sexuality--
it's in his books--my belief is that he does this for the shock 
value) and exotic cultural settings may be the reason for this.

My AP English teacher put it best.  I was afraid of my mind 
being "poisoned" by reading books that were not good literature at 
the time, and felt that this would affect my AP test scores.  To 
which she laughed and said, "Read *everything*.  Sometimes you need 
peas and carrots, sometimes you need a hot fudge sundae."  I've kept 
that in mind as I build my collection.  My reading preferences are 
Christian theology, African-American lit, and kidlit, but I read in 
every category without regarding genre or critical esteem.

To date, neither Card nor Austen nor Tolstoy have objected to the 
company.  All of the books in my personal library are great friends 
with one another.  :-)

--Ebony (whose favorite Card by far is *Pastwatch:  The Redemption of 
Christopher Columbus*.  Whoever thought a sci-fi author could make me 
cry?  ;))




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 20:47:01 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:47:01 -0000
Subject: More Pairings
In-Reply-To: <8qln08+rkug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qlp85+94dv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2087

> 
> There's a new Marauders slash fic up at ff.net.  The first I've 
ever 
> seen that wasn't too outrageous, too graphic, or too poorly written 
> for words.  It's a Remus/Sirius fic, and within hours of posting it 
> had more than 30+ reviews.  (This is yet another good way of 
> determining whether a fic is worth a look.)  Slash is generally not 
> my cup of tea (though I do think that in some fandoms, like Xena, 
it is the most plausible pairing), but this one is well written.  The 
> author has Sirius' character *down*, and while Remus is slightly 
OOC,  it's not jarring.  Can't recall the author or the title at the 
> moment... if any of the other regular fic readers know, please post 
> the link.  Thanks.
> 
> BTW, my fave non-H/H pairing is becoming Draco/Ginny.  Cassandra's 
> Draco and Lori's Ginny are a match made in heaven.  Talk about 
> fireworks!  Lucius and Arthur would disown them both on the spot... 
> Ron and Harry would contemplate murder... Narcissa would sniff with 
> contempt.  Hermione might understand eventually, but not at first.  
> As for the two of them, the pairing would scorch the page (or the 
> computer screen, depending on your medium of choice).  The 
> possibilities!
> 

I'm liking Draco/Ginny myself at the moment. Although I'm not sure 
Ron could cope; might be the end of him. "Ginny! How could you!" 
IIRC, the Maurauders slash fic you are talking about is 
called "Enough" and is by a writer called Rebecca. (There's a sequel, 
too, called "Moonlight.") I can't get on 
fff.net at the moment, or I would post the link. A title search 
should do it. It's Remus/Sirius and quite cute and sweet. (I 
thought.) There's also one up which involves Remus and Sirius going 
on an, er, camping trip together but that one was a bit much for me. 
They were so young in it...Rebecca's, I think, are set post-Azkaban.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 20:49:35 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:49:35 -0000
Subject: Wands/Brooms and Chat (was Ebony's S.O.S.)
In-Reply-To: <39CE6310.9FF36F5B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qlpcv+g5a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2088

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Ebony Elizabeth wrote:
> 
> > The tone of my draft is
> > quite complimentary... psychoanalytic criticism by nature is both
> > probing and reaching.  It'll be hard to do, but by using only the
> > essentials from Freud and relying heavily on Lacan's theories, I'm
> > trying to avoid any offensive conclusions re: any sexual 
implications
> > inherent in PoA's ending.  Again, hard to do--if you know Freud, 
you
> > know sex is *everything*--"the rest is just details".
> 
> Okay, but remember, sometimes a wand is just a wand.
> 
> --Amanda

LOL!  You went there, I didn't.

But I can just *see* my professor writing in the margins, "What about 
that broomstick?"  Liberal English types who haven't even read the 
books would pick up on that.  I'm also positive that when I read the 
paper out loud in class a couple of months from now, *someone* will 
try to throw a monkey wrench into my argument by pointing out every 
single phallic symbol I missed.  That's why I'll be using Lacan 
instead of Freud for my theoretical basis.

As for me, I've been told that I tend to be very obtuse about that 
sort of thing in real life.  Until I found groups like this online, I 
guess I subconsciously thought everyone in the HP novels save the 
parents were monks.  I can easily skirt around the "s" word by 
focusing on displacement and wish-fulfillment, both of which are 
present in PoA's ending.  

All the same, it would have really helped if I hadn't joined the PoU 
list and been utterly, totally corrupted.  :-)

I was really, really trying to make chat today, but if I don't leave 
the house now, I never will.  Have lots of fun, and as usual, let us 
know any interesting topics discussed so that we can continue on list.

--Ebony




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Sep 24 22:01:38 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:01:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands/Brooms and Chat (was Ebony's S.O.S.)
Message-ID: <v02140b10b5f42a25caf5@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2089


>All the same, it would have really helped if I hadn't joined the PoU
>list and been utterly, totally corrupted.  :-)
>
Ah, my work here is done.  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 24 21:12:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:12:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <39CE60D8.D1E3AA6C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00c501c0266c$172e2f00$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2090

This is an idea, but I also cannot believe, that once, in the photo album, there isn't a celebration picture, or a graduation pic (I know, I know, it's not graduation!) or something with the house logo on it (like we do for National Honor Society over here?) to let Harry know.  Perhaps that's the reason he knows, and we readers haven't learned.

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda Lewanski 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 4:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

  > What's amazing is that neither Harry nor Hermione has ever shown any
  > indication of investigating James and Lily's school or life history.  I know
  > Harry has had curiosity drummed out of him by the Dursleys, but you'd think
  > that four years in a nurturing environment like Hogwarts would lead to a
  > LITTLE curiosity about his parents' lives.

  They may have, like so many of us, simply assumed they knew. Or one or both may,
  in fact, know, and the information has not yet been passed on to us, the
  readers. A bombshell isn't always a bombshell to the characters involved, but it
  always is to the readers.

  I always get the feeling that Harry holds his mental construct of his parents
  delicately, like a piece of jewelry one treasures and doesn't wear so it won't
  get hurt. And he's still adjusting to the parts he *does* know. He still has
  only known the truth about them for four years, and it's been a pretty busy four
  years, and the only time he's not busy is when he's at the Dursleys', when
  investigation is pretty much out of the question. Nor has he had a lot of
  quality time with the best source for most of this sort of intimate information,
  Sirius. I'm betting this kind of thing will be a lot more developed in the later
  books.

  --Amanda



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Sep 24 22:00:41 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:00:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
In-Reply-To: <8qll9p+hm7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMKCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2091

JKR said she HAD to kill nice people to show how evil Voldemort is.  It's
not just that he killed good people in the past (like the Potters), but that
he is killing good and innocent people, even children, right NOW.  People
that Harry knows personally.

That's how it is in "real life" -- good people are senselessly murdered all
the time.  The only reason is that the murderer is a sociopath who has no
idea that other people are in the same species as the sociopath is.

She even shows him inflicting indescribable pain on a young teen (Harry)
just for his own amusement and to show off to his followers.  Sick sick sick



-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Bates [mailto:spicoli323 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 12:40 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion

In the very interesting JKR interview of a few weeks ago (post 2018)
she mentions in passing that she absolutely *hated* killing Cedric.
So why did she do it?  I've noticed before that he could have been
kept alive with only minimal plot changes; there would be some subtle
but important shifts in theme and the effects on Harry, but I think
there must be some greater reason for killing Cedric than we've seen
yet.  What kind of possible repurcussions could the death have in
Book 5?





From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 24 22:06:31 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:06:31 +0100
Subject: GoF - A comment and a supposition
Message-ID: <003a01c02673$b33d2fc0$264401d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2092

Stop me if these have been mentioned before, I've not been around for that long but:

Snape and McGonagall are there for Barty Crouch Jr's explanation of events and naturally Pettigrew plays a big part in the narrative.  Crouch always calls him 'Wormtail' and as I was re-reading GoF tonight, I suddenly thought it was weird that they didn't ask who Wormtail was.  I know, I know, compared to Voldemort's return and Cedric's death, the identity of a Death Eater is pretty small potatos, but I just thought they might have asked, as they were getting all the other details and they certainly would have been familiar with the names of suspected and convicted Death Eaters through trials after Voldemort's fall.  Although perhaps Dumbledore might explain to them off-page, so to speak, as Snape certainly has heard that Pettigrew is alive, and as Deputy Head, so might've McGonagall if she heard the circumstances regarding Sirius' capture in PoA, I would've thought this was pretty crucial, especially as it would make Sirius' to-ing and fro-ing from Hogwarts a bit easier.  I know Dumbledore gets Snape and Sirius to meet later on, I just thought it was a bit weird not to let McGonagall in on it, especially as Molly Weasley has seen Sirius now.  Oh well, we may get to book 5 and learn that Dumbledore has filled some people in off-page.

The other thing that occurred to me was that Arabella Figg, who is mentioned as one of the old crowd, may well be related to the Mrs Figg who used to look after Harry.  And this got me thinking, what if Mrs Figg was a witch who had decided to live as a muggle during or after the period when Voldemort was in power.  She's surrounded by cats, traditional familiars of witches, and although we know Harry doesn't like her, it seems that his dislike stems from the fact that she's a bit old and batty and smelly, not because she's actually nasty in anyway.  So Arabella could be her daughter or even grand-daughter, depending on the age gaps, and possibly be keeping discreet tabs on Harry's welfare that way?  Or, possibly Mrs Figg is a genuine muggle (more likely since we know the Dursley's horror of anything remotely magic) and Arabella is a muggle-born witch, or half-blood.  Possibly, if Mrs Figg is a genuine muggle she could have had the same prejudices as the Dursley's and disowned her daughter, which could be another reason why they trust her with Harry.  JKR's normally careful of her details and let's face it, Figg's not exactly a common name, so it is at least likely that this or some other relationship could be the case.  OK, OK, the evidence is slim, I know, but when have we ever let that get in the way of a good hypothesis?

Alix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 24 22:52:50 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:52:50 -0000
Subject: Flying
In-Reply-To: <39CE5A7E.348053E5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qm0k2+rvvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2093

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Nope, Mary Poppins was an adult woman in 1910, when she wafted into
Jane and
> Michael's lives. Riddle was a teenager in the 1940s. Sorry.
> 
> --Amanda, who's seen just about enough Disney movies now to last
her seven
> lifetimes
	The books by PL Travers, (an author Ebony might consider in her 
researches) were written from 1935 on...I can't recall if the setting 
of the books is so definitely Edwardian, my Poppins books having long 
since passed to the next generation.  (I too am old enough to
remember Ilya)...
Mary could have been teaching though, even if we accept the 
Disney chronology. Maybe she's Minerva McGonnagal's mom! (The Mary 
Poppins of the books, for those who haven't read them, is a far less 
sacharine creation than the one Disney made for the screen...I have a 
feeling the hat would want her in Slytherin
Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Sep 24 22:54:34 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:54:34 -0000
Subject: Other fantasy for a fourth grader
In-Reply-To: <002601c02645$a1048200$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8qm0na+ntsh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2094

I recommend the Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper
Pippin





From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 24 22:56:42 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:56:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Other fantasy for a fourth grader
References: <8qm0na+ntsh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE86AA.9AB0DA09@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2095

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> I recommend the Dark is Rising sequence by Susan Cooper
> Pippin

Whoa, yeah, forgot about that one. Me too.

--Amanda




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 23:18:09 2000
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (Alicia/Sue Spinnet)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:18:09 -0000
Subject: More Pairings
In-Reply-To: <8qln08+rkug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qm23h+a765@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2096


*delurks*

All I can say is, ditto.  It's such an unlikely pairing, that there 
are so many possibilities...

--Alicia/Sue "High Priestess of Weaseldom" Spinnet






From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 00:00:43 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:00:43 -0500
Subject: Mary Poppins (from Hagrid flying)
References: <969812603.28515@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE95AD.E126A373@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2097

Having been a devoted Mary Poppins fan at one point in my life, there is
CLEARLY something about Mary Poppins that is different from our wizards.
 In fact, I think there might be a good case that she is a hidden member
of the Endless, perhaps even an unknown aspect of Death.  

If you check one of the later books, you will discover that she can
communicate with babies.....

-Brooks



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 00:01:55 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:01:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying
References: <8qm0k2+rvvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005701c02683$d1698a60$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2098

I don't know about Mary as a Slytherin.  I think she'd make a grand Gryf!  :)

She's such a perfectionist, and wants everything just so--  dang.  What group would that be?  (I also wonder if she's not a distance relative to Hermione!)

:)
Dee    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: foxmoth at qnet.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:52 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying



       
       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

  > Nope, Mary Poppins was an adult woman in 1910, when she wafted into
  Jane and
  > Michael's lives. Riddle was a teenager in the 1940s. Sorry.
  > 
  > --Amanda, who's seen just about enough Disney movies now to last
  her seven
  > lifetimes
        The books by PL Travers, (an author Ebony might consider in her 
  researches) were written from 1935 on...I can't recall if the setting 
  of the books is so definitely Edwardian, my Poppins books having long 
  since passed to the next generation.  (I too am old enough to
  remember Ilya)...
  Mary could have been teaching though, even if we accept the 
  Disney chronology. Maybe she's Minerva McGonnagal's mom! (The Mary 
  Poppins of the books, for those who haven't read them, is a far less 
  sacharine creation than the one Disney made for the screen...I have a 
  feeling the hat would want her in Slytherin
  Pippin



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






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From Yaz at good.co.uk  Mon Sep 25 00:02:59 2000
From: Yaz at good.co.uk (Yaz)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:02:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying
References: <8qm0k2+rvvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c02683$f7e49d60$c14901d5@merchantbtinternet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2099

Hi all,

time to delurk, I think...

> > Nope, Mary Poppins was an adult woman in 1910, when she wafted into
> Jane and
> > Michael's lives. Riddle was a teenager in the 1940s. Sorry.
> >
> > --Amanda, who's seen just about enough Disney movies now to last
> her seven
> > lifetimes

> I can't recall if the setting of the books is so definitely Edwardian

Yep, definitely, Mrs Banks is a suffragette :-)

Yaz

P.S. Now that I've finally got round to delurking, you'll probably not be
able to shut me up at all ;-)





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 00:07:07 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:07:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mary Poppins (from Hagrid flying)
References: <969812603.28515@egroups.com> <39CE95AD.E126A373@indy.net>
Message-ID: <008c01c02684$8b564800$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2100

Brooks,
The Endless?  Please explain further!

:)
Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brooks A. Rowlett 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:00 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mary Poppins (from Hagrid flying)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  Having been a devoted Mary Poppins fan at one point in my life, there is
  CLEARLY something about Mary Poppins that is different from our wizards.
  In fact, I think there might be a good case that she is a hidden member
  of the Endless, perhaps even an unknown aspect of Death.  

  If you check one of the later books, you will discover that she can
  communicate with babies.....

  -Brooks

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 25 00:18:44 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 17:18:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying
In-Reply-To: <00d301c02683$f7e49d60$c14901d5@merchantbtinternet.com>
References: <8qm0k2+rvvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000924171755.0294a3f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2101

At 01:02 AM 9/25/00 +0100, Yaz wrote:
>Yep, definitely, Mrs Banks is a suffragette :-)

This is the Disney movie... The books (much better IMHO) were
written in the 1930's and presumably take place in that period.





                                                 -- Dave




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 00:10:41 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:10:41 -0500
Subject: Hobbit
References: <969825869.19658@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CE9803.D0E91480@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2102

Suggestion  - if you can afford it, get the wonderful boxed green
leather bound special edition of _The Hobbit_.  Visually imnpress on the
child that there is something special about books in general and that
one in particular.

-Brooks, who got himself the special green  leather Hobbit and special
boxed red leather LOTR while he was doing co-operative internship during college



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 00:21:50 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:21:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying
References: <8qm0k2+rvvl@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20000924171755.0294a3f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01c02686$99f642a0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2103

Dave,
the artwork from the books (while are sitting all four in my milk crates that are being a bookshelf in my bedroom) is the same as the costumes designed for the movie.  Being a clothes person (does that sound right?), I know that the outfits for woman changed drastically due to the 20's influence, and became a bit free-er, with the corsets going by the wayside.  I would place Mary Poppins in the same time frame as Anne of Green Gables, Laura Wilder, or the like.  Somewhere from 1880-ww1.

Of course, that's just my opinion!  Grins.

Dee

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Hardenbrook 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com ; HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flying



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  At 01:02 AM 9/25/00 +0100, Yaz wrote:
  >Yep, definitely, Mrs Banks is a suffragette :-)

  This is the Disney movie... The books (much better IMHO) were
  written in the 1930's and presumably take place in that period.





                                                   -- Dave


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 01:03:14 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:03:14 -0500
Subject: "Whoever thought a sci-fi author could make me cry?" ;))
References: <969840481.15706@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CEA453.B2C9590B@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2104

Ebony - and anybody else  - go find _The Best of Eric Frank Russell_ and
read "I am Nothing".

Unfortunately, this will be hard to find.

-Broolks



From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 01:09:29 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:09:29 -0500
Subject: Mary Poppins
References: <969840481.15706@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CEA5CA.7A2811CE@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2105

> 
> Brooks,
> The Endless?  Please explain further!


cf. _Sandman_, Neil Gaiman's magnificent comic book series that not only
transcends, but transforms the genre.  Something like the New york Times
creating the childrens' books category for  the best seller list, after
the Sandman special issue of _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ won the World
Fantasy Award one year, the rules were changed to clearly forbid a comic
book from winning.  Now THAT'S snobbery.

Go to your comic store and buy volume one of the bound reprints.  It's
the *least* good in some ways, and yet you will still 'boggle' when you
see Dream go to Hell and win - and when you meet his older sister.  She
is everybody's first friend - and last.

And what is really interesting is how Sandman is like Arabian Nights- it
is full of stories within the great story that it itself is.

-Brooks



From sybylla at netscape.net  Mon Sep 25 01:26:51 2000
From: sybylla at netscape.net (Elizabeth Doherty)
Date: 24 Sep 00 18:26:51 PDT
Subject: Mary Poppins (from Hagrid flying)--OT, sorry
Message-ID: <20000925012651.10311.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2106

>The Endless?  Please explain further!
>
>:)
>Dee

OK, so this wasn't directed at me, but since any mention of Sandman causes me
to jump up and down and around and around (although I don't bear any other
resemblance to Delirium, I promise) I thought I would respond.  The Endless
are "anthropomorphic personifications"...there are seven of them and they have
been around since the beginning of the universe...Going from oldest to
youngest there are Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Desire & Despair (the
twins), and Delirium.  (Although I think Gaiman contradicts himself in the
relative ages of Destiny and Death.)  They're from Neil Gaiman's wonderful
wonderful wonderful _Sandman_ books.  (Comic books or graphic novels, take
your pick.)

Death is this ultra-cool, funny, sweet, sensible, just-all-around-great little
gothette in the series.  The trade paperbacks are in most comic stores and a
lot of music stores (at least in this area)...HIGHLY recommended.  (Although
I'm rather a Gaiman fanatic, so bear that in mind.)  In addition to some other
good/great novels and short story collections, Gaiman collaborated with Terry
Pratchett on the book Good Omens.

Sorry to take up bandwidth on this...I guess the excitement of it all got to
be too much for me.

Take care, all
Elizabeth

"If your god hates the same people that you do, it is a sure sign you have
created god in your own image."
		--Source unknown, please help

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 01:28:20 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:28:20 -0000
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
In-Reply-To: <8qkvcn+n2tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qm9nk+86hd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2107

Hi, IMO, I would recommend the Narnia books over the LOTR and the 
Hobbit, which would probably be over his head.  I read Narnia, or at 
least "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" in the 5th grade and he 
might could handle these....I really don't know how adavaced he is 
tho'.  Also maybe the Susan Cooper Books. 

I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in high 
> school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what 
> would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer 
> group reading now (after HP)?
> 





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 01:42:54 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:42:54 -0000
Subject: Flying
In-Reply-To: <8ql1a4+g1nr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmaiu+g6ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2108

Actually no, Mary Poppin's takes place during the reign of King 
Edward, and therefore sometime around the beggining of the 20th 
century, during the Edwardian Era, and way before Hagrid was thought 
of....

That is assuming that Mary Poppins would have attended Hogwarts...I 
do like the Idea that this is where JKR got the umbrella thing 
though...

Hope this doesn't sound to admonishing, but Mary Poppins is probably 
one of my favourite movies of all time, and I'm pretty sure I've got 
me dates right.

"Just a Spoon full of sugar helps the medicene go down, the medicene 
go down...."

ah hmmm
Sorry!

Scott








> 
> 	Wouldn't Mary Poppins have been at Hogwarts about the same 
time as 
> Hagrid and Riddle? Where did Hagrid's umbrella come from anyway? I 
> smell a fanfic here





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 01:55:39 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:55:39 -0000
Subject: The HP companion (was should Harry Potter Die...)
In-Reply-To: <8ql5jd+c3ck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmbar+auv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2109

If she writes a companion book she ABSOULUTELY HAS TO WITHOUT A DOUBT 
title it "Hogwarts, a History", or else I will start a picket line 
outside Scholastic!  Ok, ok, maybe I won't be that drastic but it is 
the perfect title...



Scott


> 
> She said she might write a Harry Potter encycplodia after book 7 





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 02:11:12 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:11:12 -0000
Subject: Redwall books...
In-Reply-To: <v02140b0db5f3e791267e@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <8qmc80+heoq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2110

-This may have been covered in others reading recommendations but I 
haven't cought up on all the messages yet....

I read the book "Redwall" in the sixth grade for a reading list and 
my teacher read it to the class in the third grade.  I found the 
books to be a bit too violent for my taste.




> 
> Never too early for Narnia.  A lot of kids who are a little older, 
like 12
> and up, are reading the Brian Jacques books, which I'm not familiar 
with
> but appear to be a fantasy series something like Terry Goodkind or 
Robert
> Jordan are for adults.  If he's a good reader for his age they 
might be
> okay.  I can't speak to the suitability of the content.
> 
> If you can find him any Margert Mahy, rejoice.  She now writes 
young kids'
> books but she used to write really cool young adult supernatural 
type
> books.  PoU readers will be familiar with "The Changeover," I also
> recommend "The Tricksters" and "The Catalogue of the Universe," 
though all
> three have romantic elements that may turn off boys and are 
intended for
> slightly older readers.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Lori
> 
> 




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 24 11:19:33 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:19:33 +1000
Subject: snape and dumbledore
References: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE21XvpFVjCRGryWtII00000517@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2111

> I don't think dumbledore is single.I think he and snape are cosy 
buddies who care for each other very much 

when I first advanced this theory I was just joking. But in the last few days I have come to be attatched to it. so here is a half assed attempt to defend it.

Rita said "I very much doubt that Snape and Dumbledore are a couple, because 
Snape (whom, we all know, doesn't bother to conceal his feelings)"

Snape doesn't bother to conceal some of his feelings, this doesn't mean all of them, or even that he is portaying his real feelings (remember when he ref'ed the Quiditch match and all the teachers thought it was because he wanted Gryffindor to lose - maybe ppls assumtions about his behaviour/motives mean they read things that are not there) 

"For political correctness, I don't want to make Snape gay, because he 
is such a nasty guy, a bad image, but for literary correctness, his 
nastiness could result ffrom his bitterness and his bitterness COULD 
result from being a gay person with intense internalized homophobia"

I'm a dyke - I never thought of this. Gay ppl can be nasty too internalised homophiobia or not (of course, I'm one of the nice ones!)

susan said "Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same 
gender relationships, so I doubt that Snape and Dumbledore are intimate."

I would argue that JKR is writing a book aimed at both children and adults and that I can't see any realisitc adult realtionships in this book - remember our discussion about Molly's passion or otherwise for Aurthur (and vice versa I hope).  We don't see those things because the adult relationships are 1. window dressing to the main action - Harry and his friends.
and 2. difficult to portray in a way that keeps them suitable for the under 12s.

"although I have to admit that having Gilderoy Lockhart turn  out to be gay would be amusing, given all the women who fawned over him"

yes, that would be funny, and so true to life - I'm thinking Rock Hudson, Peter Allen and so on

Now I think that its clear from what Dumbledore has said that he formed an adult (not sex, a more equal vs teacher relationship) with Lily and James and some of their peers. As we have also discussed JKR has not given any of the teachers a visible personal life (which makes the Hooch/Macgonagall theory advanced by someone a long time ago just as likely as Hooch/Flint). 

It strikes me that Dumbledore would one of the few ppl who would not want to control every aspect of his partner's personality - or to see his partner's actions as automatically a reflection on himself. Thus I can see him being able to appreciate Severious's qualities and be able to be accepting of Servious's more horrid actions

as for how Servious treats Draco. Well I hope they are not going to have an affair - this does *not* do it for me. I see it more that ppl do often have blind spots, favoruites that appear at odds with other aspects of their personalities so I guess I just put it in to that. (can't think of another RL example here and I'm tired so off to bed)

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 2:15 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
  wrote:



  is never seen fawning on Dumbledore. He is, however, often seen 
  fawning on Draco (which is the S/D I could believe in). We don't 
  really know why Snape makes such a pet of Draco, whether simply 
  because he is a Slytherin who is good at Potions, or in order to 
  curry favor with Lucius, or because he hates Harry, or my friend Lee 
  urged me to write an S/D to explain this favoritism. I believe that 
  is not a complete explanation: Draco is a handsome blond, but when he 
  first arrives at school, he is *only eleven* -- not hardly grown 
  enough to fall in love with him for  his looks! Except, since he 
  looks like little Lucius, if it were a side-effect of being in love 
  with Lucius.


  -- while the variant of the Snape-loved-James theory that attributes 
  Snape's hostility to James having rebuffed Snape's tentative and 
  inept advances is just fine, another variant attributes Snape's 
  hostility to James making him feel lusts that he is trying very hard 
  not to feel. An affair with Draco (a few years ahead, when Draco is 
  older) might turn both of them into nicer people.

  Mention has been made of the fanfic 'Draco Dormiens', which I enjoyed 
  very much. The author not only came up with an unusually plausible 
  way to turn Draco to the Light Side, but the reformed Draco (the 
  characters are all age 16 in this story) is, if not the sexiest thing 
  on two legs, at any rate sexier than anyone under the age of consent 
  (which is 18 here is California) has any right to be. Blond good 
  looks, vicious tongue, strong ability to conceal his true emotions, 
  and far more insight into what make people tick psychologically 
  than *I* had at 16! Are any of the older 'girls' on this list
  reminded of Ilya Kuryakin?


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 02:27:16 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:27:16 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8qmd64+mq3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2112

 I can't see JKR being quite so melodramatic...quite apart
> from Cassandra's point that her most touching moments are the most
> understated (quite aside from James and Lily's appearance in GoF, I 
always > get really teary in PoA when Dumbledore tells Harry that he 
did see his father, as Prongs rode again...) she deliberately 
deflates the most
> melodramatic and OTT situations and characters (Professor Trelawney,
> Professor Lockhart) and most of the characters seem to have lessons 
to learn
> along the way.  Personally, I think Harry will make it to the end 
of the
> series alive, but it will have been a tough journey, with plenty of
> heartache, soulsearching and loss along the way - we've already 
heard as
> much from JKR - right now, I'm not prepared to put money on anyone 
else
> making it to the end alive, knowing the way JKR can pull the rug 
from under
> our feet (though I think one of the least likely to cark it is 
Hermione) but
> I think Harry will be there for sure.   I kind of see it in the 
manner of a
> Shakespearean comedy or romance - there has to be real loss or 
serious
> threat of loss to make the victory at the end really mean 
something - and I
> think there will be an unequivocal victory for Harry at the end, 
even if it
> is a bittersweet one.  I've spent a few tortuous hours trying to 
work who is
> going to die that upsets JKR to even think about - I was always 
convinced it
> would be Dumbledore, but recent discussion has had me very worried 
about
> Ron...
> 
> Alix
> 


WILL HARRY DIE?

I don't think so at all. I still think it will be Dumbledore, which 
will be terrible enough. But after all, he is old, and to the well 
organized mind death is but the next adventure (yrghhh, I will have a 
VERY hard time as I LOVE Dumbledore).

WILL RON DIE?

I have been convinced by this discussion that Ron will be in danger 
of death. I think he will be tempted by the dark side.

WILL HARRY MARRY?

I don't think so. I foresee Ron and Hermione (who had become oddly 
formal with each other in Book IV)as being married, and Harry being 
the single one of the triangle, just as his godfather was.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 02:33:36 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:33:36 -0000
Subject: Semi-Colons & John Grisham
In-Reply-To: <8qlel7+qt2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmdi0+kjar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2113

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> 
wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, coriolan at w... wrote:
> > > I'm sure we all know folks who - without having read any of the 
> > > books - dismiss the Harry Potter series as children books. (A 
> > Muggles 
> > > co-worker told me that she "knew" that Harry Potter was written 
> at 
> > a 
> > > first-grade level so American children can read the story 
without 
> > > help). Meanwhile, my adult friends demonstrate their *gravitas* 
> by 
> > > reading the ouevre of John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall and Tom 
> > Clancy.
> > > 
> > 
> > I know no one who reads John Grisham, Patricia Cornwall or Tom 
> > Clancy...it was somewhat exciting for me to be au courant with 
> > popular culture through reading HP...
> > 
> > my friends are reading Gecko Tails and Blanche Cook's bio of 
> Eleanor 
> > Roosevelt (Vol II).......
> 
> Susan, I dont mean to offend, but I find the above remark uncalled 
> for.  The person you responded to was expressing anger at people 
who 
> put down HP books for their supposed questionable literary merit 
when 
> their reading tastes consist of books with clearly questionable 
> literary merit.  This, IMHO, is reasonable - those people are being 
> hypocritical.  Your comment, however, was a somewhat snobby put-
down 
> of all people (whether hypocrits or not) who happen to like to read 
> books with clearly questionable literary merit.  This is unfair; 
> people who read Grisham, etc. arent inferior to your friends who 
read 
> biographies. Sorry to go off on a rant here, but I hate snobbery, 
and 
> yes I sometimes read books with clearly questionable literary 
merit, 
> and other times I even read biographies.
> 
> -- Joywitch

Joy, you misread my comments. I was just describing my life, and that
it was quite nice to be among the majority for a change. Sorry that I 
don't know anyone who reads Grisham, etc. I'm sure I read stuff with 
questionable literary merit, but I don't really pay attention to what 
people think has merit? Except about Tolkien and HP, because people
seem determined to prove that it's not literature. 

Susan




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 02:38:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:38:43 -0400
Subject: The Endless
References: <20000925012651.10311.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <002101c02699$b97554a0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2114

Thanks.  I never knew they were called "The Endless."  I do have a fascination with the "Death", I still want her watch, lol, but I also have her poster, her AIDS flyer, and her series "The High Cost of Living".  I adore her!  It's been awhile since I grabbed a Sandman, perhaps it's time to dig one up again?  At least a graphic novel?  I liked the convention and the Barbie dolls.  They were quite odd, but appealing!

Now, back to the topic at hand...    

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Elizabeth Doherty 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:26 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: Mary Poppins (from Hagrid flying)--OT, sorry



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  >The Endless?  Please explain further!
  >
  >:)
  >Dee

  OK, so this wasn't directed at me, but since any mention of Sandman causes me
  to jump up and down and around and around (although I don't bear any other
  resemblance to Delirium, I promise) I thought I would respond.  The Endless
  are "anthropomorphic personifications"...there are seven of them and they have
  been around since the beginning of the universe...Going from oldest to
  youngest there are Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Desire & Despair (the
  twins), and Delirium.  (Although I think Gaiman contradicts himself in the
  relative ages of Destiny and Death.)  They're from Neil Gaiman's wonderful
  wonderful wonderful _Sandman_ books.  (Comic books or graphic novels, take
  your pick.)

  Death is this ultra-cool, funny, sweet, sensible, just-all-around-great little
  gothette in the series.  The trade paperbacks are in most comic stores and a
  lot of music stores (at least in this area)...HIGHLY recommended.  (Although
  I'm rather a Gaiman fanatic, so bear that in mind.)  In addition to some other
  good/great novels and short story collections, Gaiman collaborated with Terry
  Pratchett on the book Good Omens.

  Sorry to take up bandwidth on this...I guess the excitement of it all got to
  be too much for me.

  Take care, all
  Elizabeth

  "If your god hates the same people that you do, it is a sure sign you have
  created god in your own image."
              --Source unknown, please help

  ____________________________________________________________________
  Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 02:46:28 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:46:28 -0000
Subject: Miss Figg (Was a comment....)
In-Reply-To: <003a01c02673$b33d2fc0$264401d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8qmea4+n05s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2115

-Miss. Figg is a Squib actually (JKR told this to Blaise I think, 
errr maybe not specifically to her but..) We disscussed this last 
week I think.  But in my Opinon Arabella is probably a daughter or 
something but the two are most likely not one and the same.

Scott

Alix wrote
> The other thing that occurred to me was that Arabella Figg, who is 
mentioned as one of the old crowd, may well be related to the Mrs 
Figg who used to look after Harry.  And this got me thinking, what if 
Mrs Figg was a witch who had decided to live as a muggle during or 
after the period when Voldemort was in power.  She's surrounded by 
cats, traditional familiars of witches, and although we know Harry 
doesn't like her, it seems that his dislike stems from the fact that 
she's a bit old and batty and smelly, not because she's actually 
nasty in anyway.  So Arabella could be her daughter or even grand-
daughter, depending on the age gaps, and possibly be keeping discreet 
tabs on Harry's welfare that way?  Or, possibly Mrs Figg is a genuine 
muggle (more likely since we know the Dursley's horror of anything 
remotely magic) and Arabella is a muggle-born witch, or half-blood.  
Possibly, if Mrs Figg is a genuine muggle she could have had the same 
prejudices as the Dursley's and disowned her daughter, which could be 
another reason why they trust her with Harry.  JKR's normally careful 
of her details and let's face it, Figg's not exactly a common name, 
so it is at least likely that this or some other relationship could 
be the case.  OK, OK, the evidence is slim, I know, but when have we 
ever let that get in the way of a good hypothesis?
> 
> Alix
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 02:53:51 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:53:51 -0000
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
In-Reply-To: <8qm9nk+86hd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmenv+9ljb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2116

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Hi, IMO, I would recommend the Narnia books over the LOTR and the 
> Hobbit, which would probably be over his head.  I read Narnia, or 
at 
> least "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" in the 5th grade and he 
> might could handle these....I really don't know how adavaced he is 
> tho'.  Also maybe the Susan Cooper Books. 
> 


Ooooh, glad someone mentioned Susan Cooper (also based in the U.K. 
England and then Wales. Under Sea, Under Stone is the first one in 
the series and is geared for younger children. I do think I read the
Dark is Rising as an adult..When the Dark comes rising, six shall 
turn it back, three from the circle, three from the track; wood, 
bronze, iron; water, fire, stone; Five will return and one go alone.
Wonderful, outstanding stuff (but I have no idea if it has literary 
merit).

The Narnia Chronicles are wonderful and I believe that we must give 
them to our kids early so that they are not too old to be totally 
enraptured by them. My son (aged 3) enjoys having the simplified 
versions read to him, and has watched the video. We've now gotten 
through the first three chapters (one at a time) of the Lion, the 
Witch and the Wardrobe, adult version, and he just loves them.
(We just started reading the PS to him....he already loves "Harry 
Powder" from listening to snatches on the tape, and hearing us talk 
and chose HP to be at Halloween instead of Zorro, and Robin Hood..his 
other two favorites)

The Hobbitt is actually one of my least favorites...whereas the LOTR 
is one of my most favorites!

Also, no one has yet mentioned Patricia Wrede's Magician's Ward, etc.
Light, but fun...

Also, don't neglect Robert Heinlein's juveniles (Citizen of the 
Galaxy or Starman Jones) or Andre Norton's juveniles.

My best suggestion is: find a second hand store and get him a bunch 
of books! 

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 02:59:58 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:59:58 -0000
Subject: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
In-Reply-To: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmf3e+32o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2117

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> > snip
> > Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about 
same 
> > gender relationships
> > 
> > snip
> 	I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the 
situation in 
> PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then 
(fast 
> forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and 
> parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am 
I 
> reading too much into it? 
> Pippin


Hmmmm...well, I'd like to think you aren't...
I love JKR and don't want this to be seen as critical...
But she shows no sign that she even recognizes same gender
relationships as possible, as an alternative. I've written her a 
letter talking
about the high suicide rate among teenagers who are lesbian and gay, 
and how positive role models go a long way.

Susan




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 25 03:11:45 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:11:45 -0500
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
Message-ID: <39CEC271.AA7B28F7@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2118

Hoo boy.

Well, I could cop out totally and start out by saying, first of all,
that there's nothing at all about lust in these books--if you're
thinking about lust in the strictly sexual sense.  The kids, best as we
can tell, are all virgins, the teachers don't seem to be involved in
sexual relationships (or else they're EXTREMELY discreet).  And Arthur
and Molly, judging from the number of their children, seem to have had
an active sex life, but they don't seem to do a lot of on-stage
snogging.  (Pause.  I love that term, snogging.)

(So???  Is that all, Peg?  Do we just end it here and go out for
coffee?)

Well, perhaps not entirely.  First of all, we're starting to detect at
least the glimmerings of lust--or at least awareness of the opposite
sex, in GoF.  Exhibit 1 is Harry's uneasiness/excitement around Cho;
Exhibit 2 is the peculiar strained conversations swirling around between
Hermione and Ron (especially about the Yule Ball) and even between
Viktor and Harry, again about Hermione.  Hormones are starting to wake
up, and our trio is becoming uneasily aware of it.  It seems to be a
mixed blessing at this point.  I think Rowling handles this beautifully
and realistically.  Harry is suddenly aware that there are a lot of
girls at Hogwarts.  Lots and lots of girls (and all moving in packs, he
thinks fretfully).  It's as if his sexual antennae are starting to
twitch.  We'll have to see what will develops with this in future books.

What troubles could the sin of lust create for Harry and the rest, if it
really becomes a problem in future books?  Well, all discussion must be
very tentative at this point, but perhaps we've seen at least one
effect, in his conversation with Cho about the Yule Ball.  He has
difficulty talking to Cho; he feels incredibly stupid around her.  If
one effect of gluttony is selfishness, then perhaps an equivalent effect
of lust is a certain, well, brainlessness, if you will.  Loss of
judgment.  Ron, for example, seems to be suffering a certain disorder in
his thinking about Hermione and Viktor going to the Yule Ball together
(see, for example, the argument between Ron and Hermione at the end of
Chapter 23, and Harry's thought that Ron seems to be the one "missing
the point").

Lust can also lead to strain, and even betrayal, of relationships.  We
can all see how budding sexual feelings are causing tension between Ron
and Hermione in particular.

Lust, like gluttony, can be thought of in more general terms.  I checked
my dictionary definitions; lust is defined first as an overwhelming
drive to satisfy sexual desire, and secondly, as an overwhelming drive
to satisfy any other desire in general.  I tried to apply a more general
definition to gluttony in my last post, besides the first definition of
feeding gastronomic desire.  The secondary definitions for these two
words explain gluttony as "an increased capacity" (including for things
other than food) and lust as "an overwhelming drive" (including things
other than sex).  Upon rereading these definitions more carefully, I
think perhaps I should have applied the discussion about Voldemort and
Lockhart to this message about lust rather than the last message about
gluttony: i.e., Voldemort can be said to have a lust for power, and
Lockhart for adulation.  (Alas, if I muddle around with these secondary
definitions even more, gluttony and lust will become indistinguishable,
and I'll only end up confusing everybody).

But if we stick to my original tentative hypothesis, that gluttony leads
to selfishness and lust to loss of judgment, then the star character of
this post that I'd like to talk about with respect to lust (in the more
general sense) is Remus Lupin.

Once a month, a kind of madness seizes Lupin (literally, blood lust)
coupled with the total loss of all human reason.  He has a strong drive
to bite other people, the danger being that he could infect them.  Now,
as far as simply BEING a werewolf goes, Remus suffers all the prejudice
of the wizarding world "blaming him" for being a werewolf, but Rowling
clearly indicates, and the reader believes, that initially Remus is
innocent of "sin" here.  He did not ask to be bitten and he tries to
protect other people from his malady.

Where Remus goes over the line from innocent victim to someone who
commits the sin of lust is when he agrees to let his friends become
animagi so that they can release him to run free during his
transformations.  By doing so, Remus is removing all the restraints that
are meant to protect himself and other people during the times that he
has no judgment.  THAT is his sin.  And for that, he must pay--casting
himself out, if you will, from his own personal Garden of Eden--Hogwarts
where he has been so happy, and has been gainfully employed for the
first time in his life, because he has violated the trust of others,
most importantly, Dumbledore.  For that he must go.

Passing mention of two subjects:

The Mirror of Erised, which shows you your heart's desire (what your
heart lusts after the most, if you will).  It is useful to know what you
desire the most, Dumbledore says, but remember that it may not be
attainable or even possible--and thus, you shouldn't let yourself obsess
over it, to the exclusion of all else in your life.

Secondly, many have suggested that one engine driving the plot might be
feelings that Snape had for Lily, whether love or lust--but of course,
it's all speculation at this point.

Comments?

Peg




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 03:12:11 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:12:11 -0000
Subject: Lily a Slytherin? (was Sorting)
In-Reply-To: <8qkocn+m6ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmfqb+p97r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2119

> 
> Remember the rule of logic called Occam's Razor: The simplest 
> explanation that covers the facts is to be preferred. When we build 
> these spun-sugar castles of fancy that has Lily as a closet Death 
> Eater or whatever, we're almost certainly going down the wrong path.


The idea that Lily could be a closet Death Eater upsets me -- it's 
almost like other HP lists where people say "oh, wouldn't it be cool 
if Harry turned to the dark side." 

In some ways, how effective an author is depends on how much we 
invest in her or his universe -- and I am very invested in the HP
universe. 

In that universe, death eaters are evil. They torture and kill the 
innocent. Can you imagine coming home to find Voldemort's sign above
your house and go in to find your family dead? That's evil. Lily, who 
sacrificed herself for her son, is not evil.

Snape was once a death eater, but changed. JKR obviously believes in 
personal transformation, like Dumbledore who believes in giving 
people second chances -- all kinds of people, giants, werewolves, etc.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 25 03:16:59 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:16:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <8qmenv+9ljb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CEC3AB.CC4FE185@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2120



Susan McGee wrote:

> Also, no one has yet mentioned Patricia Wrede's Magician's Ward, etc.
> Light, but fun...

Hey, I was in Patricia Wrede's writing group at the time and critiqued that book in manuscript.  That was fun.  I've critiqued several of her books in the draft stage.

Peg




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 03:23:14 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:23:14 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
In-Reply-To: <39CEC271.AA7B28F7@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qmgf2+6ppn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2121

I think the effect the veela seem to have on guys is some kind of 
embodiment of lust, though not the most interesting because the 
results of the "veela effect" are mostly benign and played for comic 
relief (e.g. the Bulgarian mascots at the World Cup, and Fleur's 
effect on Ron and half the boys at Hogwarts.)  I can't see Fleur as 
some kind of evil temptress; she seems likeable and not dangerous in 
any way (I would still love to see Harry/Fleur in Book 5, but that's 
a different post.)
Still, I can't help but wonder about the potential the veela have for 
evil.  Are all veela as benign as Fleur, or are pure-blood veela more 
like sexual vampires, feeding off lust?  I have some vague idea that 
there are mythological precedents for this kind of creature, and I 
wonder if Voldy might be able to use some corrupt veela to his 
advantage.  If our theories about Dumbledore being a bachelor who 
hasn't been getting any are true, maybe the veela would be his 
Achilles heel ;-).




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 25 03:29:53 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:29:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
References: <8qmgf2+6ppn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CEC6B1.8FDA60FC@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2122



Steve Bates wrote:

>
> I think the effect the veela seem to have on guys is some kind of
> embodiment of lust . . .

Good lord, I'm embarrassed.  The veela, how could I forget the veela?  Insert Steve's discussion of veela in my original message. Thanks, Steve.

Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 25 03:36:32 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:36:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
References: <8qmgf2+6ppn@eGroups.com> <39CEC6B1.8FDA60FC@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39CEC840.571010C2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2123



Peg Kerr wrote:

>
> Good lord, I'm embarrassed.  The veela, how could I forget the veela?

I also forgot about Hagrid and Madame Maxime.  That's the first possible teacher relationship we've seen.  I'll open that one up to out-sourcing: feel free to jump in with your comments about
Hagrid and Madame.  I'm bushed and I'm going to turn in for the night.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 03:40:00 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:40:00 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
In-Reply-To: <39CEC271.AA7B28F7@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qmheg+q21v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2124

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Hoo boy.
> 
> Well, I could cop out totally and start out by saying, first of all,
> that there's nothing at all about lust in these books--if you're
> thinking about lust in the strictly sexual sense.  The kids, best 
as we
> can tell, are all virgins, the teachers don't seem to be involved in
> sexual relationships (or else they're EXTREMELY discreet).  And 
Arthur
> and Molly, judging from the number of their children, seem to have 
had
> an active sex life, but they don't seem to do a lot of on-stage
> snogging.  (Pause.  I love that term, snogging.)

What is snogging?



> 
> (So???  Is that all, Peg?  Do we just end it here and go out for
> coffee?)
> 
> Well, perhaps not entirely.  First of all, we're starting to detect 
at
> least the glimmerings of lust--or at least awareness of the opposite
> sex, in GoF.  snip  I think Rowling handles this beautifully
> and realistically.  Harry is suddenly aware that there are a lot of
> girls at Hogwarts.  Lots and lots of girls (and all moving in 
packs, he
> thinks fretfully).  It's as if his sexual antennae are starting to
> twitch.  We'll have to see what will develops with this in future 
books.


Re: Lust

No one has mentioned the Veela..... (or have I missed it?)
Ron and Harry lose it at the Quidditch World Cups...and then Ron is 
affected by the part-Veela Beauxbatons girl/young woman (forget her 
name)
This is lust personified.
Then part-Veela girl is obviously lusting after the older Weasley 
boy...(hope HE is gay) 





From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 03:42:11 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:42:11 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)
In-Reply-To: <39CEC840.571010C2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qmhij+qblu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2125

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Peg Kerr wrote:
> 
> >
> > Good lord, I'm embarrassed.  The veela, how could I forget the 
veela?
> 
> I also forgot about Hagrid and Madame Maxime.  That's the first 
possible teacher relationship we've seen.  I'll open that one up to 
out-sourcing: feel free to jump in with your comments about
> Hagrid and Madame.  I'm bushed and I'm going to turn in for the 
night.

Obviously, I wrote about Fleur and the Veela before I read the 
messages immediately preceding mine.

Hagrid and Madame Maxine are very sweet. I love it.




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 03:54:15 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:54:15 -0500
Subject: Books for kids, and Ilya
References: <969853345.5341@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CECC66.6D4ECABC@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2126

Amen to Susan's mention of Andre Norton books for kids.  The ultimate
book for a kid who feels out of place in his own world is Norton's _The
X Factor_.  Norton remains the only SF author I ever wrote a fan letter
to (and her reply included these neat Bast bookmarks).
Heinlein's juveniles are also pretty cool, but I grew up on Norton and I
am a Norton completist - I have just about everything she has written OR
edited, and multiple editions of a few items.


-Brooks

PS   - on Ilya Kuryakin - see if you can _Sapphire and Steel_ on tape. 
(easier in the UK than in the US).



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep 25 04:25:05 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 04:25:05 -0000
Subject: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
In-Reply-To: <8qll9p+hm7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmk31+ou16@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2127

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at h...> 
wrote:
> <<Am I making too much of the meeting with Amos pointing towards 
> Cedric's death?>>
> No, not at all.  This scene is important in letting us get to know 
> Amos, as well as in developing his character.  It is interesting to 
> compare his friendly attitude in this scene with the way he acts 
> towards Harry after Harry becomes the fourth champion,

The way Amos acts towards Harry after Harry becomes the fourth 
champion is the same way he acted towards Harry when meeting him 
on the way to Portkey to World Cup. Remember, he was going on about 
Harry is supposed to be such a great Quidditch player but Cedric beat 
him last year. Cedric was embarrassed by his father's behavior and 
tried to shut him up. That reminded us that Cedric wanted to replay 
the match because he only won because Harry fell off his broom 
because of the Dementors (but there is nothing in the Quidditch rules 
about replaying a game just because of one side's bad luck), a first 
reminder of what a nice guy Cedric is.

Amos is proud of his wonderful son, boasts about him, and is 
defensive of him (when he doesn't want to be defended). I wonder a 
lot where Amos's feelings about his son fit, on a scale from, at one 
end, he loves his son just for being his son and would be proud of 
him even if he were very ordinary, to, at the other end, loving his 
son only for being splendid enough to be worth boasting about, and 
wouldn't love him if he were merely ordinary, would instead always 
criticize him for not getting on the House team, for not getting top 
grades, for not getting this and not getting that.




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 04:29:55 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 04:29:55 -0000
Subject: Should HP msrry GW and die?
In-Reply-To: <8ql8ma+85to@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmkc3+hual@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2128

"Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> 

>  Why did you pick Ginny rather than Hermione

The chemistry between Ron an Hermione is right, it's already obvious 
that something is going on. To Harry Hermione is a close friend and 
brilliant colleague but any romantic interest would bring Harry into 
serious conflict with Ron, and I don't see that happening. Ron has 
played second fiddle to Harry lots of times but enough is enough.    




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep 25 04:34:56 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 04:34:56 -0000
Subject: More Pairings
In-Reply-To: <8qln08+rkug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmklg+g7qp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2129

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" wrote:

> There's a new Marauders slash fic up at ff.net.  The first I've 
> ever seen that wasn't too outrageous, too graphic, or too poorly
> written for words.  It's a Remus/Sirius fic,

I'll have to go look at it (fortunately, someone later in the thread 
mentions the author's name). Meanwhile, a while back Gillian on hpa 
announced her R/S, at 
http://www.corplink.com.au/~gillianm/HarryPotterSlash.htm 
and I like it a great deal, gushy and sentimental and all that.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 22 19:29:00 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 20:29:00 +0100
Subject: Romance, statistics and gluttony
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEKBCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2130

Helena wrote: "Thank you to Carol, Penny, Simon, Neil, Firebolt, Sam and
everyone else who wrote a response to my queries about the pairing. That's
what I love about this group...the healthy and intelligent discussions.
Although I still vote H&H (even after GOF), the Hedgwig and Harry thing got
me thinking. How imaginative! Hedgwig as the animagus, of course!"

This is interesting. When I first posted this idea I suggested that Harry
would become an animagus. He would be an owl with those fantastic emerald
green eyes. Since then a few people have commented and suggested that Hedwig
may be an animagus, and even possibly having some connection to Lily and
James.

Penny wrote: "The first poll asks what pairing people favored *prior* to
reading PoU. This is the one where 43% said R/H.  *I* voted for R/H in that
poll for example.  <g>  Prior to PoU, I was ambivalent about romantic
pairings at best and mildly thinking that Ron sure had the beginnings of a
crush on Hermione."

Maybe I should have read the questions more carefully! I can only see the
Harry / Hermione partnership if Ron was to die but I am becoming
increasingly convinced that this will not happen.

Penny wrote: "I feel certain he'll step in & correct me if I'm wrong."

No you seem to have read my mind. I'll just step in and comment anyway!

Penny wrote: "The purpose of the polls was really to get a general idea how
many people were converted by PoU.  It seems that PoU converted a high
percentage of the poll respondents.  My guess is that people who remain
convinced that H/H is "wrong" in all circumstances haven't responded to the
poll."

It is not that clear, due to low turn out, as to which pairing people really
support. If others have misread the question, like I have done, then this
may be the reason why there has been little support for some over others.

Penny wrote: "Silly me!  It just seemed that those favoring the alternative
H/H pairing that Simon proposes might be a rather statistically small
sampling of PoU readers.  <g>"

Well as about 50 people have voted I would only have to find a couple of
people to support me to get greater than 5% support for this partnership. In
statistics 5% is the usual significant level. Now all I need to get is a
couple of people to agree with me.

As everyone I am sure knows, 88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Also there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
You may have guessed by know that statistics is not a favourite of mine.

Peg wrote: "This is spinning out of control, so I'll stop here.  Comments?
Other characters you'd like to discuss re: gluttony?"

Another possibility is Percy. The way he acts when prefect and head boy
could be described as such. He is always looking for ways of using and
getting more power. He is far too officious at times. So maybe I am
stretching this a little.

Simon (8 hours until that Olympic rowing event happens - probably a lot less
by the time I actually send this)




From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Mon Sep 25 05:04:09 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 05:04:09 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qmd64+mq3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmmc9+i7da@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2131

Susan wrote:
> 
> 
> WILL RON DIE?
> 
> I have been convinced by this discussion that Ron will be in danger 
> of death. I think he will be tempted by the dark side.
> 
> 
My response:

It's been on my mind that Ron will be Harry's "weak link" because 
whilst he is a loyal friend, he is emotionally more explosive and 
less stable. It only takes a few snide remarks from Malfoy about his 
poverty to get him going. Also, it has been shown that he does enjoy 
being in the limelight (example in PoA telling his story about the 
night with Black), sensitive about his lack of money and always 
getting hand-me-downs from his brothers, how long he harboured the 
grudge with Hermione over his rat, initial resentment towards Harry 
in GoF after the tournament participants were announced...

Seems there are enough "buttons" to push, to tempt him to the dark 
side, like you said. Between the two, Hermione seems to be made of 
sterner stuff where it comes to right and wrong. Except for 
the "there's no wood" episode, her clear logical mind and loyalty 
seem to come through well enough each time.

Someone mentioned the possibility of Dumbledore being killed off. Oh 
dear, I certainly do hope not. He has always turned up at all the 
right moments - saving Harry from Quirrell, handing over the 
Invisibility Cloak, the Mirror of Erised matter all in PS/SS,advising 
Hermione and Harry about the time turner in PoA and arriving in time 
to save Harry from Crouch Jr in GoF.... Also, he has yet to tell 
Harry "when the time is right" as to why Voldy wanted to kill him 
(Dumbledore said this in Book 1, he will only tell him when he is 
older)and that I presume, may not be revealed till towards the end. 

By the way, just a side question...does anyone know if there is going 
to be a BBC interview with JKR this week ? Someone told me that he 
thought he heard it on the news.

Thanks
Gen








From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Mon Sep 25 05:23:21 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 05:23:21 -0000
Subject: The HP companion (was should Harry Potter Die...)
In-Reply-To: <8qmbar+auv2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qmng9+i5gc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2132

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> If she writes a companion book she ABSOULUTELY HAS TO WITHOUT A 
DOUBT 
> title it "Hogwarts, a History", or else I will start a picket line 
> outside Scholastic!  Ok, ok, maybe I won't be that drastic but it 
is 
> the perfect title...
> 
> 
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> > 
> > She said she might write a Harry Potter encycplodia after book 7

My response:

My apologies if this has been mentioned before as I've been out of 
touch for a few weeks...I sincerely hope that after Book 7, JKR goes 
on to the prequels...preHarry, back to Tom Riddle's days at Hogwarts 
which will involve James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin, maybe even 
Dumbledore's good old days, his defeat of the dark wizard, or perhaps 
the story of the 4 founders and how Hogwarts was founded, back to the 
days when students were punished by being hung in chains as Filch so 
gleefully pointed out in PS/SS etc etc... there's loads....Just like 
David Eddings'Belgarath in addition to his other series. 

I don't want the magic to end...!!!

Gen







From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 05:24:32 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 05:24:32 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
Message-ID: <8qmnig+j6cd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2133

For a long time it's been obvious to Dumbledore and most of the 
faculty at Hogwarts that an educated and trained Harry Potter was the 
only real hope of defeating Voldamore, and it was equally obvious 
that the chance of Harry surviving such a confrontation was almost 
zero. That's why the mixture of triumph and despair (or was it 
guilt?) flashed over Dumbledore's face at the end of book 4. Most 
thought of this as a necessary evil but not Snape for Snape was a 
moral man. I don't mean he's a nice cuddly person or anything, he's 
cold, calculating, ambitious and perfectly willing to take advantage 
of the weakness in others to get his way, I just mean that for Snape 
morality is something you have to take very seriously. Snape felt 
that training a child to go on a kamikaze mission without even 
telling him what was going on was morally wrong, even if he didn't 
happen to like the child involved, and he certainly didn't like 
Harry. Snape wanted to get Harry expelled, he enjoyed making him 
miserable hoping he'll quite, but never did he do anything to put him 
in physical danger, in fact he protected him.   

When Snape was a kid he was a cheerful boy who's driving ambition was 
to learn all the magic there was to learn. His first course at 
Hogwarts was "charms", they were learning love potions. The students 
teamed up to give charms to each other, by pure chance Snape's 
partner was Lilly Riddle, Harry's future mother. Normally this is 
harmless, the sort of charm a kid could make would only last a few 
minutes at best, and even the charm made by a adult wizard could be 
reversed without much difficulty. However Lilly was a magical genius, 
an absolute powerhouse especially in the area of charms, at the time 
nobody understood this, least of all Lilly. The charm caused Snape to 
fall madly in love with Lilly and the effect was permanent and 
irreversible. Lilly always felt very guilty about this, after they 
graduated Lilly even offered to marry Snape but he knew she did not 
love him and so would be unhappy, Snape could not stand the thought 
of her being unhappy. Lilly married James Potter instead.

Snape couldn't hate Lilly but he could hate James, Harry looks like 
his father so Snape hates him too. Snape finds that the charm makes 
him incapable of loving anybody else and is embittered, he becomes a 
death eater. Lilly has developed a charm that she thinks will counter 
Voldamore's Avadra Kedavra death curse, that's why he wants to kill 
her. So far she's only made enough for one person so she gives it to 
Harry. When Snape finds out that Voldemore is trying to kill Lilly he 
switches sides and becomes a spy for Dumbledore, that's why he trusts 
him so much, Snape hates Voldemore as much as harry does. Snape 
fought courageously to save Lilly but failed. By the end of book 6 
Harry and Snape don't become friends exactly but at least learn to 
respect each other, after all, Harry has his mother's eyes.







From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 25 07:29:59 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:29:59 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <OE487xBNWep4CMxfqcl00000810@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qmutn+mbne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2135

My own belief is that Voldemort does not in fact have his original 
wand; in any event I haven't found anything plausible to explain how 
he could have retained it or retrieved it following his disastrous 
visit to Godric's Hollow; nor have I seen anything to cause me to 
believe he could have carried it around during the eleven years that 
he had no body.

If Voldemort is, in fact, using a ringer wand, the implication is
that Harry is already a lot more powerful than anyone has yet 
suspected (being able to actuate the Priori Incantatem effect without 
even having the actual wand that shares his own wand's core).  In
fact we already KNOW that Harry is exceptionally powerful; he won a 
wizard's duel against Voldemort, fair and square.  This level of 
potential, when demonstrated unwittingly by a half-trained
adolescent, would seem to give Voldemort a strong incentive for 
wanting to kill Harry as an infant.  There may be something in his 
genes that Voldemort was able to anticipate as a future threat.

I wonder what Lily and Petunia's maiden name was?

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
> Brian said:
>    Your right that it doesn't make much sense for James and Lilly
to 
> swith places.  But in post 1530 (I think) I proposed a scanario 
where 
> James and Harry switched.  I admit it has holes and I'm not exactly 
a 
> big proponent of it but I do think it explains things as well as 
> anything that's been thought up so far.  Although the idea that 
Snape 
> killed James with Voldy's wand after the attempt to kill Harry
makes 
> a certain amount of sense too.
>                                        
> 
> I don't think that Harry and James could have swapped placed - this 
would have left a small 14 month old baby in a body that the could
not 
control. Remember the polyjuice potion just gives you the phsycal
(sp) 
charictoristics (sp) of the person/cat you transform into - not
access 
to there skills/memories etc
> 
> storm
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Brian 
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:34 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice 
Potion
> 
> 
> 
>        My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page | Start a new group!  
> 
> 
>   --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross 
<Changeling at d...> 
>   wrote:
>   > 
>   > Hallo all,
>   > 
>   > I joined the list a short while ago and I very much enjoy 
reading
>   > your insights. 
>   > 
>   > As for the Polyjuice Potion theory, there's another point that
>   > doesn't fit the picture. Even if there was a strong enough 
reason to
>   > keep the heirs of Gryffindor alive (assuming that James and 
Harry 
>   are
>   > his descendants) to make James trade places and appearance with 
his
>   > wife and put her up as Voldemorts prime target, did he really 
have
>   > reason to think Voldemort would let Lily live, given his hatred 
of
>   > muggle-born wizards?
>   > 
>   > Greetings
>   > Christina
> 
> 
>   Christina,
>      Your right that it doesn't make much sense for James and Lilly 
to 
>   swith places.  But in post 1530 (I think) I proposed a scanario 
where 
>   James and Harry switched.  I admit it has holes and I'm not 
exactly a 
>   big proponent of it but I do think it explains things as well as 
>   anything that's been thought up so far.  Although the idea that 
Snape 
>   killed James with Voldy's wand after the attempt to kill Harry 
makes 
>   a certain amount of sense too.
>                                           Brian
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 07:51:53 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:51:53 +1000
Subject: snogging
References: <8qmheg+q21v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE6ig41UjdSkleUBUhr00000b44@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2136

Susan! what's snogging indeed?! kissing of course (in its most harmless manifistation)

And as for Percy - now there's a sterotype. Ms Clearwater is (poor thing) *just* a cover

btw my posts seem to be taking at least a day to come up so sorry if I seem behind the times 

storm
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Susan McGee 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:40 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 7 Deadly Sins: Lust (long)



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
  > Hoo boy.
  Arthur
  > and Molly, judging from the number of their children, seem to have 
  had
  > an active sex life, but they don't seem to do a lot of on-stage
  > snogging.  (Pause.  I love that term, snogging.)

  What is snogging?


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 08:08:30 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:08:30 +1000
Subject: will anyone marry? (was will Harry die?)
References: <8qmd64+mq3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE43LoygXLsxpTljBOh00000bfd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2137

Susan said - WILL HARRY MARRY?

I don't think so. I foresee Ron and Hermione (who had become oddly 
formal with each other in Book IV)as being married, and Harry being 
the single one of the triangle, just as his godfather was.

I think it is unlikely any of the trio will marry (hmm, clumsey) they will only be 18 at the end of Book 7 - surely that's a little young espically if Wizards/Witches live longer than muggles. I think the emphsising of Lily and James young marrage is a device to make it clear how romantic and how perfect it is. (now, cynic taking over I can imagine - no personal experance here - that lots of early marrages don't stand the test - but they died so we will never know ohhh - they might have gone on for ever)

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Susan McGee 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 12:27 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?



       My Groups | HPforGrownups Main Page  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hgiammarco at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 08:54:35 2000
From: hgiammarco at hotmail.com (hgiammarco at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:54:35 -0000
Subject: OT: Garment Shop-Peg's reply
In-Reply-To: <39CD20DA.89D357D8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qn3sb+sv64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2138

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

 > And ahem, yes, Amanda, I suppose you could say I was a fool to 
spend 
so much
> money on it.  Couldn't make it myself--don't have a sewing machine 
or to the
> time.  And, yeah, I could have hired a seamstress, but I didn't.  I 
chose to
> do it and I'm not sorry.  Once in a while, I firmly believe, you 
have to be
> a fool with your own money.  Not often, just occasionally.  I have 
to be
> responsible in so many areas of my life (Mom, chief breadwinner, 
full-time
> extremely mundane job), that sometimes, I just have to do something
> absolutely crazy once in a while.  Like buy an expensive cloak.  Or 
rob
> hours from my own sleep, writing essays about the seven deadly sins 
and the
> HP books.  Or write fantasy novels.
> 
> Sometimes, I really get tired of being a responsible muggle.  So I 
pretend
> I'm something else.
> 
> Peg

Three cheers, Peg. I'm with you on that one. Brava. 
Helena




From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Mon Sep 25 10:01:12 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:01:12 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <8qmnig+j6cd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qn7p8+g2s7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2139

> 
> When Snape was a kid he was a cheerful boy who's driving ambition 
was 
> to learn all the magic there was to learn. His first course at 
> Hogwarts was "charms", they were learning love potions. The 
students 
> teamed up to give charms to each other, by pure chance Snape's 
> partner was Lilly Riddle, Harry's future mother. Normally this is 
> harmless, the sort of charm a kid could make would only last a few 
> minutes at best, and even the charm made by a adult wizard could be 
> reversed without much difficulty. However Lilly was a magical 
genius, 
> an absolute powerhouse especially in the area of charms, at the 
time 
> nobody understood this, least of all Lilly. The charm caused Snape 
to 
> fall madly in love with Lilly and the effect was permanent and 
> irreversible. Lilly always felt very guilty about this, after they 
> graduated Lilly even offered to marry Snape but he knew she did not 
> love him and so would be unhappy, Snape could not stand the thought 
> of her being unhappy. Lilly married James Potter instead.
> 
> Snape couldn't hate Lilly but he could hate James, Harry looks like 
> his father so Snape hates him too. Snape finds that the charm makes 
> him incapable of loving anybody else and is embittered, he becomes 
a 
> death eater. Lilly has developed a charm that she thinks will 
counter 
> Voldamore's Avadra Kedavra death curse, that's why he wants to kill 
> her. So far she's only made enough for one person so she gives it 
to 
> Harry. When Snape finds out that Voldemore is trying to kill Lilly 
he 
> switches sides and becomes a spy for Dumbledore, that's why he 
trusts 
> him so much, Snape hates Voldemore as much as harry does. Snape 
> fought courageously to save Lilly but failed. By the end of book 6 
> Harry and Snape don't become friends exactly but at least learn to 
> respect each other, after all, Harry has his mother's eyes.

My thoughts:

I like your theory...I think somewhere many moons ago this topic was 
discussed in the Yahoo chatgroup messages...for the life of me, I 
can't remember the other reasons that were discussed as to why it 
can't be this "love Lily" reason. 

I tend to subscribe to the Snape/Lily love theory as well because I 
believe it had to be something extremely emotional that struck Snape 
right to the core that has flamed his hatred all through the years. 
Maybe he swore his undying love for Lily which was an irreversible 
spell. I'm not sure about the bewitching charm which you said Lily 
could have performed but I feel fairly certain that Snape hated Harry 
from the beginning because as you say, he is the spitting image of 
James and Snape hates James we know because the latter was popular 
and Lily simply has to be a big factor here. To rub salt into the 
wound as it were, Harry has his mom's eyes which perpetually reminds 
Snape of the love he had lost. It's like, Harry could have been his! 
(Urgh...just picture this..Harry with green eyes and GREASY hair like 
Snape's...yuck!!!). 

To add to your theory, maybe, just maybe he in fact HELPED Lily 
create the potion that can throw off the AK curse. After all, he is 
the Potions Master. He must have been gifted at this in school as 
well. Maybe it was a special potion that needed both of them to do it.

Another point - may have been raised before - why do you think  
Voldemort told Harry that "your mother needn't have died" ? Seems far 
fetched that V had any soft spot for Lily as he appears to be 
incapable/devoid of any positive emotion. He may have asked Lily to 
switch to the Dark Side and she refused but I can't see Voldemort 
being the sort to be merciful and giving people a choice actually.

If Snape actually openly fought to save Lily from V, then it's going 
to be tough for him to do whatever it is Dumbledore intends for him 
to do in Book 5. It would appear from Dumbledore's words in GoF that 
Snape must somehow be seen to be with V, continue to be a spy for 
Dumbledore. I can't imagine V trusting him....as he is close to 
Dumbledore. Another thought - could it even be conceivable that 
Snape's hatred for Harry is a cover up , although from the many 
instances in all four books so far, his hatred is genuine enough. 
Maybe that's why Dumbledore doesn't seem to stop Snape from being 
nasty to him. Could Lily have somehow secretly made Snape Harry's 
second godfather ?

Gen






From find_sam at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 10:50:11 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:50:11 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <8qn7p8+g2s7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnal3+t0j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2140

> Another point - may have been raised before - why do you think  
> Voldemort told Harry that "your mother needn't have died" ? 

I doubt that when Voldemort came after the Potters he had any 
intention of allowing Lily to live even if she came up Harry. It's 
likely to be V's way of torturing Harry. I don't have the book on 
hand but I believe that in PoA Harry had a memory of V saying to 
Lily 'you don't need to die' or some such line. Again, this is V's 
way of torturing his victims. Gosh, he's so evil!!!




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 25 12:26:06 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:26:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should HP msrry GW and die?
References: <8qmkc3+hual@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CF445E.3AC7394F@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2141

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...>
>
> >  Why did you pick Ginny rather than Hermione
>
> The chemistry between Ron an Hermione is right, it's already obvious
> that something is going on.

Ah  . . . . something is going on from *Ron's* end.  It's alot less
clear whether Hermione has any feelings for Ron in return though.  I can
argue point-for-point that Hermione doesn't return his feelings at all
in fact (or doesn't *necessarily* return his feelings; it can be said to
be ambiguous in the instances that most people cite to support that Ron
& Hermione belong together).  I think she has her eye on Harry.  It's
the Farmer in the Dell Theory that we've discussed before (Ron likes
Hermione; Hermione likes Harry; Harry likes noone or someone outside the
Trio (like Cho in Bk 4)).

I also disagree that the chemistry between Ron & Hermione is "right."

> To Harry Hermione is a close friend and
> brilliant colleague but any romantic interest would bring Harry into
> serious conflict with Ron, and I don't see that happening. Ron has
> played second fiddle to Harry lots of times but enough is enough.

Yes, it would bring him into conflict with Ron.  Ron might well be
motivated to betray Harry at some point because of this  . . . .

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Mon Sep 25 14:05:07 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:05:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT!
References: <000c01c0265c$ffe1aac0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000925150507.2615.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2142

On 24.09.2000 at 15:23:59 Denise wrote:

>I seemed to be missing alot of folks here in chat!  The room is
>open, the scroll is going, and Brooksindy and I are in, but only
>Dennis (whom I missed, by that (pinches) much!) has popped in.
>
>Come and join us.  I am assuming the discussion is Simon's essay on
>ch. 11!    
>

Is there a fixed time for a chat? When and where? 

Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Mon Sep 25 14:05:07 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:05:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Miss Figg (Was a comment....)
References: <8qmea4+n05s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000925150507.B81.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2143

On 25.09.2000 at 02:46:28 Scott  wrote:

>-Miss. Figg is a Squib actually (JKR told this to Blaise I think, 
>errr maybe not specifically to her but..) We disscussed this last 
>week I think.  But in my Opinon Arabella is probably a daughter or 
>something but the two are most likely not one and the same.

Why not? It makes sense for Dumbledore to place somebody from his
inner circle near Harry to keep an eye on him. She could have
instructions never to use magic so the Dursleys wouldn't find out
about her. If they thought her connected with "those people" they
would never let Harry near her. 

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 13:04:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:04:43 -0400
Subject: Has anyone obtained this?  Is this legit?
Message-ID: <009e01c026f1$2ec04420$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2144

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/40827761

I saw this, but haven't heard of it until today.  Anyone have any comments as to if this is legit?

Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 14:06:55 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:06:55 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Chinese Pirates
Message-ID: <8qnm5v+e2jd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2145

http://news.excite.com/news/r/000925/08/odd-potter-dc

There is more to the story of the Chinese version of HP than we 
thought.




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 14:15:38 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:15:38 -0000
Subject: Lily and Petunia Riddle
In-Reply-To: <8qmutn+mbne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2146

jazzman4 at e... wrote:

> I wonder what Lily and Petunia's maiden name was?

Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before 
his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant, 
she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father, 
Lilly did not.  







From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 14:37:16 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:37:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] snape and dumbledore
References: <8qikut+h2ab@eGroups.com> <OE21XvpFVjCRGryWtII00000517@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39CF631C.87627CFA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2147

storm stanford wrote:

> I would argue that JKR is writing a book aimed at both children and adults and that I can't see any realisitc adult realtionships in this book - remember our discussion about Molly's passion or otherwise for Aurthur (and vice versa I hope).  We don't see those things because the adult relationships are 1. window dressing to the main action - Harry and his friends.
> and 2. difficult to portray in a way that keeps them suitable for the under 12s.

No, I think we don't see adult relationships much (yet) because these books are written from Harry's viewpoint and awareness. Sex, much less adult versions and relationships, is not much in his viewfinder yet, although it's dawning. JKR has done a splendid job so far of matching the issues addressed to the emotional and moral "age" of Harry; the books are darker and more
complex because Harry is both growing up and can perceive and process the complexity, and because Harry is constantly learning more about his past. As other parts of his psyche mature as well, I think he'll become more aware of those aspects of adults, as well.

To a degree, trying to figure out adult relationships from the books we've seen so far is a lot like asking your little brother about his English teacher's boyfriend. That's not what he's really paying much attention to yet (but, maybe the English teacher's *car*.....)

Did that make sense?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 14:40:49 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:40:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Riddle
References: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CF63F0.D62917F3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2148

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before
> his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant,
> she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father,
> Lilly did not.

But why was Tom senior apparently living with his parents? If he'd been
widowed, the kids would be there, too... he seems to have been pretty much a
snob, and surely being a witch is not the only reason he could drop someone.
I'm betting Lily and Petunia are his granddaughters via another by-blow,
after Tom senior dumped Voldemort's mom. If I have my ages right.

--Amanda




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 25 14:57:00 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:57:00 -0000
Subject: Miss Figg (Was a comment....)
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000925150507.B81.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8qnp3s+flvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2149

> >week I think.  But in my Opinon Arabella is probably a daughter or 
> >something but the two are most likely not one and the same.
> 
> Why not? It makes sense for Dumbledore to place somebody from his
> inner circle near Harry to keep an eye on him. She could have
> instructions never to use magic so the Dursleys wouldn't find out
> about her. If they thought her connected with "those people" they
> would never let Harry near her. 

The whole Mrs. Figg question is one of my favorite HP mysteries. 
Check out the Puzzles, Red Herrings, and Mysteries page of the Harry 
Potter Lexicon for a list of comments and talking points about her, 
including some of those supposedly insignificant lines about her that 
could suggest something very significant indeed. 

I would LOVE to add to that page, by the way. Someone suggested that 
the whole Crookshanks question is worth a mention and I heartily 
agree. I do plan to add our favorite pseudo-cat soon. Any other 
suggestions?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep 25 15:19:22 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:19:22 -0000
Subject: Has anyone obtained this?  Is this legit?
In-Reply-To: <009e01c026f1$2ec04420$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qnqdq+fdtd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2150

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/40827761
> 
> I saw this, but haven't heard of it until today.  Anyone have any 
comments as to if this is legit?

I have one- it is legit - WH Smith is a british bookseller & they 
gave these out on July 8 to the first customers of Book IV. It's 
pretty neat!




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep 25 15:21:35 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:21:35 -0000
Subject: Lily and Petunia Riddle
In-Reply-To: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnqhv+oc3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2151

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> 
> > I wonder what Lily and Petunia's maiden name was?
> 
> Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before 
> his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant, 
> she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father, 
> Lilly did not.

Not temporally feasible. If Tom RIddle Sr was the father of both 
girls then they were in their late 30's/early 40's when Dudley & 
Harry were born, and Sirius & Remus would've been in their 60s in 
Book III, which doesn't match with the "description" info we have 
(that remus has a young looking face, or that the LIly who came out 
of the wand was a young woman).




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 25 15:34:55 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:34:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Riddle
References: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com> <39CF63F0.D62917F3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002101c02706$2d34dca0$d4af20cc@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2152


>
> eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before
> > his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant,
> > she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father,
> > Lilly did not.
>
> But why was Tom senior apparently living with his parents? If he'd been
> widowed, the kids would be there, too... he seems to have been pretty much
a
> snob, and surely being a witch is not the only reason he could drop
someone.
> I'm betting Lily and Petunia are his granddaughters via another by-blow,
> after Tom senior dumped Voldemort's mom. If I have my ages right.
>

Yeah the ages just don't work for TR Sr. to be Lily's Dad....

Harry's born in 1980.
CoS took place in 1992.
TR Jr was at hogwarts 50 years before in 1942 and was 16 at the time of his
diary episode with Harry.
TR Sr killed in 1944

If Lily was TRSr daughter she would have been at least 37 when she had
Harry.  While thats not unheard of it doesn't seem likely.  In SS Sirius is
described as "young"  He is a Lily contemporary, so I doubt the maruader's
were that old when Harry was born...more likely mid twenties.

Grandaughter is much more likely...but still pretty far fetched...IMHO.

carole






From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 15:41:46 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:41:46 -0000
Subject: Draco fanfic (sort of OT)
In-Reply-To: <8qjtsg+ngli@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnrnq+kt6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2153

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, cassandraclaire73 at y... wrote:
> Okay, I'm going to bite (and I have a right, since that's my Draco 
> you're talking about!)--who's Ilya Kuryakin

Ilya Kuryakin was the Russian (good) spy, played by David McCallum, 
in the 60s TV show *The Man from U.N.C.L.E.*  His partner was an 
American spy named Napoleon Solo, played by Robert Vaughn (?).  They 
were both VERY sexy and worked for U.N.C.L.E., the good intelligence 
agency, which was run by the actor who played Topper, I think.  IIRC, 
their big enemy was SPECTRE, the evil intelligence agency.  Only 
people older than, er, a certain age would remember this show, which 
IMHO was one of TVs best, especially for those of us whose adolescent 
or pre-adolescent hormones were just starting to stir.  Personally, I 
find it hard to see Draco Malfoy and Ilya Kuryakin in the same 
universe, but admittedly I havent read the fanfic in question.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 16:01:08 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:01:08 -0000
Subject: HP and "The Witches"
Message-ID: <8qnss4+7bal@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2154

Of all the Roald Dahl books "The Witches" is probably my favourite, 
and so I was flipping through it (BTW, I was thinking to recommend 
this as reading for a 9yr. old, at least one who hasn't already read 
it!)  when I came across this passage-

"Soon after my seventh birthday, my parents took me as usual to spend 
Christmas with my grandmother in Norway.  And it was over there, 
while my father and mother and I were driving in icy weather just 
north of Oslo, that our car skidded off the road and went tumbling 
down into a rocky ravine.  My parents were killed.  I was firmly 
strapped into the back seat and received only a scratch on the 
forehead."

Now, this CANNOT be an accident, sorry but it just can't...the 
Dursely's have obviously been reading too much Dahl (despite the fact 
I don't take them as being the literary type). But seriously this 
must be where JKR got the "your parents died in a car crash" thing 
from -OR- The other highly probably idea, I am reading far to much 
into everything....


Scott




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 16:06:45 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:06:45 -0000
Subject: Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qnt6l+rg79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2155

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> 
> What's amazing is that neither Harry nor Hermione has ever shown any
> indication of investigating James and Lily's school or life 
history.  I know
> Harry has had curiosity drummed out of him by the Dursleys, but 
you'd think
> that four years in a nurturing environment like Hogwarts would lead 
to a
> LITTLE curiosity about his parents' lives.  Hermione would be more 
the type
> to do the research, but you'd think she'd pass on any startling 
news (such
> as one or both of his parents being Slytherins) to him by now.  We 
do know
> that Harry has never discussed his near-assignment to Slytherin 
House by the
> Sorting Hat with anyone but Dumbledore.
> 
> Such a lack of curiosity almost defies belief.  We know he spends 
time
> looking at the photo album that Hagrid assembled for him.  Why 
wouldn't he
> want to read the details of what happened the night his mortal 
enemy,
> Voldemort, killed his parents?
> 
> Could JKR really be sitting on some bombshell and expect us to take 
the news
> without questioning why it was withheld for so many years?  I 
dunno.....
> 

Ouch!  Sister M has punched a major hole into my theory that the 
Marauders were Slytherins.  I will crawl back into my cave now.

-- Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 16:21:15 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:21:15 -0000
Subject: OT In Defense of Ripping Bodices (was Semi-Colons & John Grisham)
In-Reply-To: <8qloo5+g3pd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnu1r+svh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2156

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:

> To date, neither Card nor Austen nor Tolstoy have objected to the 
> company.  All of the books in my personal library are great friends 
> with one another.  :-)

I agree entirely with your sentiments, Ebony.  I have many, many 
books in my house - from Grisham to Agatha Christie to Dickens to 
stacks of textbooks and back again.  They all get along pretty well, 
except for J.D. Salinger, who tends to snarl at everyone, especially 
the younger authors.

-- Joywitch




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 25 16:36:54 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:36:54 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <005501c02581$0d1eb8e0$6adc5d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8qnuv6+hev8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2157

About the Basilisk...it was meant to be a *servant* of the Heir of 
Slytherin. In other words, the Heir could use it for what ever he/she 
wanted. Tom Riddle chose to use it for *evil*. I, frankly, think a 
Basilisk could come in handy when fighting Dark Wizards :-)


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Denise" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief!  If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a plug/etc.. 
about Raistlin!
> 
> 
> 
> I think he built the Chamber of Secrets and put the Basilisk in it 
> AFTER he fell out with the other Founders about admitting 
> Muggle-borns, and BEFORE the other Founders got rid of him 
> (killed him? caged him up at the bottom of the lake until Harry 
finds 
> him in a future book? kicked him 1000-odd years into the future 
where 
> he found that young Tom Riddle was a perfect servant? moved his 
mind 
> into Tom Riddle's body at some point in the immortality spells that 
> made Riddle/Voldemort's body no longer human?)
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 25 16:50:45 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:50:45 -0000
Subject: HP and "The Witches"
In-Reply-To: <8qnss4+7bal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qnvp5+g2ud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2158

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Of all the Roald Dahl books "The Witches" is probably my favourite, 
> and so I was flipping through it (BTW, I was thinking to recommend 
> this as reading for a 9yr. old, at least one who hasn't already 
read 
> it!)  when I came across this passage-
> 
> "Soon after my seventh birthday, my parents took me as usual to 
spend 
> Christmas with my grandmother in Norway.  And it was over there, 
> while my father and mother and I were driving in icy weather just 
> north of Oslo, that our car skidded off the road and went tumbling 
> down into a rocky ravine.  My parents were killed.  I was firmly 
> strapped into the back seat and received only a scratch on the 
> forehead."
> 
> Now, this CANNOT be an accident, sorry but it just can't...the 
> Dursely's have obviously been reading too much Dahl (despite the 
fact 
> I don't take them as being the literary type). But seriously this 
> must be where JKR got the "your parents died in a car crash" thing 
> from -OR- The other highly probably idea, I am reading far to much 
> into everything....

Yes, Scott, I entirely agree.  I have said MANY times (several 
members of the group are rolling their eyes) that Roald Dahl CLEARLY 
inspired JKR.  The Dursleys, especially, are clearly Dahl-type 
characters (like the parents in Matilda, or the aunts in James and 
the Giant Peach), and I think the whole car accident scene you quote, 
Scott, is absolutely NOT a coincidence.  There is another character 
in The Witches, another little boy who gets turned into a mouse, who 
is a lot like Dudley Dursley.  Harry s story has some parallels to 
Charlie s (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory).  I could go on, but I 
suspect you would all be happier if I didnt.

-- Joywitch




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Sep 25 17:33:27 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:33:27 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <8qmutn+mbne@eGroups.com>
References: <OE487xBNWep4CMxfqcl00000810@hotmail.com> <8qmutn+mbne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <jjuuss46gtf4pe4rn7s66sap5rjc568vhd@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2159

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:29:59 -0000, jazzman4 at earthlink.net wrote:

>My own belief is that Voldemort does not in fact have his original 
>wand; in any event I haven't found anything plausible to explain how 
>he could have retained it or retrieved it following his disastrous 
>visit to Godric's Hollow; nor have I seen anything to cause me to 
>believe he could have carried it around during the eleven years that 
>he had no body.

The Priori Incantatem would not have been possible if he hadn't had
his original wand. The wands would not have connected and the curses
would not have been regurgitated. Remember how we first learned about
this effect at the Quidditch match after Harry's wand had been used by
Crouch Jr. to conjure the Dark Mark. So why did Voldemort still have
his original wand? Perhaps he wasn't alone when he killed the Potters
but was accompanied by one (or several) of his Death Eaters. In any
case, he would not have been able to leave the place on his own after
the AK curse he had used on Harry backfired at him. Someone must have
been there to help him and this someone probably also took his wand
and hid it in a safe place for later use.

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 25 17:33:53 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:33:53 -0000
Subject: Lily: the Death Eater
Message-ID: <8qo2a1+rlmg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2160

Here's a new spin.
What if Lily was a Death Eater? Maybe she knew V. would kill James 
that night, but she wasn't counting on V. trying to kill Harry. 

In the first book, V. tells Harry that he killed Lily because she was 
protecting Harry. In PoA, Harry hears Lily begging V. not to kill 
Harry and V. telling the "foolish girl" to get out of the way. If 
V.'s goal was to kill the Potters (meaning James and Lily), I don't 
think he would have wasted his time telling Lily to get out of the 
way
I think he would have just killed her without much ado.
Lily would also make a *perfect* Death Eater-spy
no one would
suspect that she was working for V. especially since she was "muggle-
born". 
Also, Hagrid and others say that you could never tell who was on V.'s 
side and who wasn't. In fact, that was why they were all so shocked 
about Sirius Black "betraying" the Potters and why it was conceivable 
for Lupin to believe Sirius went over.
Just a thought ;-)






From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep 25 17:46:02 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:46:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Riddle
In-Reply-To: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOENLCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2161

Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason besides age....

Petunia told Harry that her parents were PROUD of having a witch (Lily) in
the family.  Tom Riddle senior shunned his wife and son for being witches.




======================================================
Tips for the Evil Overlord's Accountant:
#4. Keep a fourth set of books, listing the locations
and passwords for the bulk of the Evil Overlord's loot,
including the Plundered Crown Jewels. Use this information
to bargain for your miserable cowardly life when the Hero
defeats the Evil Overlord.

http://users.erols.com/vansickl/scifi.htm
======================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com [mailto:eggplant88 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:16 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Riddle


jazzman4 at e... wrote:

> I wonder what Lily and Petunia's maiden name was?

Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before
his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant,
she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father,
Lilly did not.





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From vjmerri at iquest.net  Mon Sep 25 18:37:26 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:37:26 -0000
Subject: Lily and Petunia Riddle
In-Reply-To: <8qnqhv+oc3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qo616+orft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2162

--- In " <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> --- :
> > jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> > 
> > Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family 
before > > his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so 
unpleasant, > > she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from 
her father, > > Lilly did not.
> 
> Not temporally feasible. 

Agreed.  Besides, I don't think there is any tangible evidence that 
Lily and Petunia were related directly to the Riddles.  Plus there is 
a strong piece of evidence against it.

Tom Riddle Sr. strongly disliked and was afraid of witches/wizards.  
I mean, he _married_ this woman, got her pregnant and then left her 
because she was witch.  He didn't just knock her up without marriage 
and then leave on general principles.  

Petunia specifically states that her parents were proud of Lily, 
thought she was great, and that only _Petunia_ saw her as a freak.

Even without the strong temporal conflicts, the evidence in the book 
doesn't indicate it could be the same person.

There simply isn't any evidence to tie Tom Riddle and Lily and 
Petunia together.  Now JKR may put something in the future books, but 
right now there is no evidence.

Vicki




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 25 18:51:03 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:51:03 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <jjuuss46gtf4pe4rn7s66sap5rjc568vhd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8qo6qn+o7gn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2163

Sorry Monika, I ain't buyin' that one yet.  My thesis is that Harry's 
innate power caused an effect that was largely indistinguishable from 
Priori Incantatem.

Dumbledore's been wrong before, you know.
-
-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:29:59 -0000, jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> 
> >My own belief is that Voldemort does not in fact have his original 
> >wand; in any event I haven't found anything plausible to explain 
how 
> >he could have retained it or retrieved it following his disastrous 
> >visit to Godric's Hollow; nor have I seen anything to cause me to 
> >believe he could have carried it around during the eleven years 
that 
> >he had no body.
> 
> The Priori Incantatem would not have been possible if he hadn't had
> his original wand. The wands would not have connected and the curses
> would not have been regurgitated. Remember how we first learned 
about
> this effect at the Quidditch match after Harry's wand had been used 
by
> Crouch Jr. to conjure the Dark Mark. So why did Voldemort still have
> his original wand? Perhaps he wasn't alone when he killed the 
Potters
> but was accompanied by one (or several) of his Death Eaters. In any
> case, he would not have been able to leave the place on his own 
after
> the AK curse he had used on Harry backfired at him. Someone must 
have
> been there to help him and this someone probably also took his wand
> and hid it in a safe place for later use.
> 
> Monika
> 
> 
> --
> Books and Movies
> http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Sep 25 19:14:28 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:14:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <8qnt6l+rg79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKENNCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2164

No harm intended!  It may please you to know that I am absolutely the WORST
for predicting future events, in books or in real life.  But that's what
this lovely list is all about -- there is so much hidden meaning and
possibilities in the Potter books that even after we've finished the last
sentence of Book 7, I imagine we'll still spend months discussing our ideas
and theories about the events.  And if there wasn't so much mystery, we
wouldn't have anything to hang our theories upon!


-----Original Message-----
From: Joywitch [mailto:joym999 at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 9:07 AM
To: HPforGrownups at eGroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins

Ouch!  Sister M has punched a major hole into my theory that the
Marauders were Slytherins.  I will crawl back into my cave now.

-- Joywitch




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 19:17:20 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:17:20 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <8qo8c0+sr2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2165

J K Rowling can't just come right out and say that it would be 
absolutely impossible to write an 8'th book in the series because 
then she'd be giving the entire game away, but in a recent biography 
of her by Marc Shapiro she comes about as close as you can get to 
saying that Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7 without 
actually saying so.

 "Although she would occasionally tease about never saying never when 
asked if she would follow Harry off to college the author has 
remained adamant that Harry Potter will end with book number seven. 
She admitted to feeling sad at the idea that Harry Potter will end 
someday and feels there will be a "bereavement" when she has written 
the last line on the final page but she insists that "There will be 
no Harry Potter midlife crisis or Harry Potter as an old wizard."

I stand by my prediction, poor Harry will not live past his 19'th 
birthday.





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 19:28:53 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:28:53 -0000
Subject: Lily (WHO IS NOT ): the Death Eater
In-Reply-To: <8qo2a1+rlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qo91l+klnv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2166

Firstly, if my mind serves me correctly, which it probably doesn't, 
Voldemort said Lily needn't of died.  Not that he was going to spare 
her life, just that she didn't HAVE to die, but how many of Voly's 
victims HAD to die, even in Voldy's eyes?

Secondly, I would be REALLY disappointed in JKR if she was to make 
Lily a death eater, though not so much so if she turned out to be a 
Slytherin.  As far as we know it was simple pure and unfettered love 
that saved Harry.  Now that may, or may not be the whole story, but 
despite, Lily still gave her life for Harry and in doing so defied 
all that evil, and therefore Voldemort, stands for.  Now I just 
can't, or at least I won't accept that Lily could be bad and yet 
still have that amount of love.  After all Dumbledore does say that 
the one thing Voldemort cannot understand is love.

Thirdly, if Lily was a death eater then why didn't she kill Harry, or 
at least James herself?  Why would Voldemort have bothered at 
all...After all as a death eater she wouldn't have cared much for her 
family, just for power (remember: There is only power and those to 
weak to seek it.)  But the power of Voldemort is superficial because, 
for reasons we've already disscussed, namely it is siphoned out of 
his followers by fear...True power comes from unity, from faith in 
each other, and from love.

If JKR decides to make Lily a death Eater I, for one, will be very 
upset.  That really would undermine the basic priciples that the 
books are based on. Also, OT but the green Eyes don't make me think 
of Sytherin  but of the unforgivable curses...Maybe Lily survived AK 
as a baby and the green eyes are her mark to prove it...just 
pondering.

Scott 




> Here's a new spin.
> What if Lily was a Death Eater? Maybe she knew V. would kill James 
> that night, but she wasn't counting on V. trying to kill Harry. 





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 25 19:50:18 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:50:18 -0000
Subject: Lily: the Death Eater
In-Reply-To: <8qo91l+klnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qoa9q+u9fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2167

Well, IF Lily was a Death Eater, it doesn't necessarily means she was 
as corrupt as V (since V. is about as corrupt as you can get, IMO). 
Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are Death Eaters with 
children and while we really don't know the extent of their parental 
love it seems that there is some.

It would be a blow to Death Eater Lily that V. double crossed her
 and went after Harry once he had killed James ("No not 
Harry!")especially if it was her understanding that V. would only 
kill James. V.'s command for the "foolish girl" to stand aside is 
revealing his lack of understanding love. Maybe he thinks her to be 
foolish because she is choosing love (for Harry) over power? Maybe at 
the moment she realized V. was going to kill Harry, she had a change 
of heart and her sacrifice was the only fitting way to redeem
herself? 
Afterall, Snape managed to see the light and un-Death Eater'd
himself. 
could Lily have had that kind of revelation when V. double crossed 
her?

BTW, I would be kind of disappointed if Lily was a Death Eater 
too...but it's an interesting thought.
;-) 


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Firstly, if my mind serves me correctly, which it probably doesn't, 
> Voldemort said Lily needn't of died.  Not that he was going to
spare 
> her life, just that she didn't HAVE to die, but how many of Voly's 
> victims HAD to die, even in Voldy's eyes?
> 
> Secondly, I would be REALLY disappointed in JKR if she was to make 
> Lily a death eater, though not so much so if she turned out to be a 
> Slytherin.  As far as we know it was simple pure and unfettered
love 
> that saved Harry.  Now that may, or may not be the whole story, but 
> despite, Lily still gave her life for Harry and in doing so defied 
> all that evil, and therefore Voldemort, stands for.  Now I just 
> can't, or at least I won't accept that Lily could be bad and yet 
> still have that amount of love.  After all Dumbledore does say that 
> the one thing Voldemort cannot understand is love.
> 
> Thirdly, if Lily was a death eater then why didn't she kill Harry, 
or 
> at least James herself?  Why would Voldemort have bothered at 
> all...After all as a death eater she wouldn't have cared much for 
her 
> family, just for power (remember: There is only power and those to 
> weak to seek it.)  But the power of Voldemort is superficial 
because, 
> for reasons we've already disscussed, namely it is siphoned out of 
> his followers by fear...True power comes from unity, from faith in 
> each other, and from love.
> 
> If JKR decides to make Lily a death Eater I, for one, will be very 
> upset.  That really would undermine the basic priciples that the 
> books are based on. Also, OT but the green Eyes don't make me think 
> of Sytherin  but of the unforgivable curses...Maybe Lily survived
AK 
> as a baby and the green eyes are her mark to prove it...just 
> pondering.
> 
> Scott 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Here's a new spin.
> > What if Lily was a Death Eater? Maybe she knew V. would kill
James 
> > that night, but she wasn't counting on V. trying to kill Harry.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 19:52:57 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:52:57 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qo8c0+sr2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qoaep+o6o5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2168

Eggplant,
I think that we have all collectively agreed that the book to which 
you are refering is not worth the paper on which it is printed.  I 
myself have not read read the book but have discredited it based on 
numerous accounts of people in this group ( though I admit that this 
is as bad as saying that the Harry Potter Books are evil based on the 
advice of a friend...)

As to whether Harry Potter should die...I think that this more so 
that anyone else is the death that would be most likely to crucify 
JKR.  However, I think that if any writer could handle killing off 
the protagonist she could.  But on second thought I wonder how she 
could handle it...After all by the time the last book comes around 
she will of been eating, sleeping and breathing Harry Potter for 
close to 13 yrs.  I don't know if I, in her place, could kill Harry 
without feeling that I had murdered my own child, (mind I'm not in 
JKR's place.)

Do I think Harry Potter will die? I still am undecided but really 
can't see it Happening...I think that if it comes down to it Ron will 
take Harry's placeand die to protect him...Oh and by the way, I 
really don't think that JKR is planning to write about Harry when he 
is 19  (one book for each yr and Hogwarts equalis the end will be 
around his 18th brithday) so your prediction doesn't work... and as 
much as no one wants HP to end, I believe that in the end by keeping 
the number of books to the original seven she will be able to 
maintain the integrity of the work and secure its place for posterity.



Scott



J K Rowling can't just come right out and say that it would be 
> absolutely impossible to write an 8'th book in the series because 
> then she'd be giving the entire game away, but in a recent 
biography 
> of her by Marc Shapiro she comes about as close as you can get to 
> saying that Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7 without 
> actually saying so.
> 
>  "Although she would occasionally tease about never saying never 
when 
> asked if she would follow Harry off to college the author has 
> remained adamant that Harry Potter will end with book number seven. 
> She admitted to feeling sad at the idea that Harry Potter will end 
> someday and feels there will be a "bereavement" when she has 
written 
> the last line on the final page but she insists that "There will be 
> no Harry Potter midlife crisis or Harry Potter as an old wizard."
> 
> I stand by my prediction, poor Harry will not live past his 19'th 
> birthday.




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 19:53:33 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:53:33 -0000
Subject: Lily and Petunia Riddle
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOENLCCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qoaft+t3m4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2169

"Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:

> Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason besides 
age

Huh? why is age a problem?

>Petunia told Harry that her parents were PROUD of having a witch 
(Lily) in the family.  Tom Riddle senior shunned his wife and son for 
being witches.

He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known he had 
a son. And I can imagine a man intimidated by a wife who is a 
powerful witch and at the same time proud of his precocious daughter 
who is also a witch.





From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 20:05:59 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:05:59 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qoaep+o6o5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qob77+ng10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2170

"Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:

> I really don't think that JKR is planning to write about Harry when 
he is 19  (one book for each yr and Hogwarts equalis the end will be 
around his 18th brithday) so your prediction doesn't work


Everybody seems to assume this is a basic law of nature that can 
never be broken, but I don't recall Rowling ever saying that the last 
page of the last book can only be Harry's graduation day. Nope, I 
think you'll see his 19'th birthday, but no more.





From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 25 20:05:19 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:05:19 -0500
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qo8c0+sr2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFAFFF.3718526C@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2171

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> J K Rowling can't just come right out and say that it would be
> absolutely impossible to write an 8'th book in the series because
> then she'd be giving the entire game away, but in a recent biography
> of her by Marc Shapiro she comes about as close as you can get to
> saying that Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7 without
> actually saying so.

Well . . . .I do agree with you that she certainly can't say anything
definitive.  However, because she's not being definite does not mean
that Harry will die.  I think she's joked about it, and she sure wants
to keep the mystery going.  There are certain things she could say that
*would* indicate Harry will likely die or that *would* indicate that she
just flat-out has no interest in continuing the series past Book 7.
But, she really hasn't said any of those things.  My personal take on it
is that she planned out 7 books and hasn't had the time or energy to
truly focus on whether she'd have interest in writing more (or writing
prequels as someone suggested).  So, she's tried to keep her options
reasonably open but at the same time, avoid leaving her fans with any
expectations that the books might continue.

As for the Shapiro book -- it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
For starters, it's an *unauthorized* biography -- these are *never*
reliable.  But, even if you discount that huge initial strike against it
& buy it anyway (as I did), anyone who knows anything about JKR is
immediately appalled.  Not only is it replete with typos & grammatical
errors (and it's geared for the 9-12 yr old set in any case), but it's
also full of internal inconsistencies & flat-out mistakes.  These
inconsistencies & errors are the type of things that the author should
never have missed if he'd been careful & cared about his subject.  But,
even if *he* wasn't taking the time to do a good job, any editor worth
his/her salt should have caught the more glaring errors.  He couldn't
even be bothered to get the birthdate of his subject correct so . . . .
the end result is I sure wouldn't trust a word this book says.  You're
far better off reading the interviews that he based the book on (and the
others that have come out since the book was released) -- they're better
written & tell a consistent tale.

> I stand by my prediction, poor Harry will not live past his 19'th
> birthday.

Nah!  As someone else suggested, he'll be battered & bruised & war-weary
(and will have suffered some losses along the way), but he'll still be
standing when the series ends I imagine.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:05:01 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:05:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qo8c0+sr2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFAFEC.6E9B33BD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2172

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> I stand by my prediction, poor Harry will not live past his 19'th
> birthday.

And I stand by mine, that some authors, JKR included, have enough internal fortitude to end a series and leave it ended, without killing the character as insurance against temptation. She's using
"Harry Potter" in your quote as the collective work, not the character, talking about ending it.

--Amanda, who has inherited Dad's Edgar Rice Burroughs collection and is simply *amazed* at how long Tarzan was around.....





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 25 20:12:07 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:12:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qo8c0+sr2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000925131105.026a7c50@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2173

At 07:17 PM 9/25/00 +0000, eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:
>... but in a recent biography
>of her by Marc Shapiro she comes about as close as you can get to
>saying that Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7 without
>actually saying so.

But I gather this book is not only "unauthorized", but contains more
errors than Neville's last Potions exam...





                                                 -- Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep 25 20:13:53 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:13:53 -0000
Subject: Lily: the Death Eater
In-Reply-To: <8qoa9q+u9fv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qobm1+q8f2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2174

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Well, IF Lily was a Death Eater, it doesn't necessarily means she 
was 
> as corrupt as V (since V. is about as corrupt as you can get, IMO). 
> Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are Death Eaters with 
> children and while we really don't know the extent of their 
parental 
> love it seems that there is some.

Oh, not necessarily for them, as people. I have my suspicions that 
Draco is just another of his parents' posessions, like a slightly 
interesting suit of armor, or alternatively, as a piece of modeling 
clay which they can make into something useful. 




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:12:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:12:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily: the Death Eater
References: <8qoa9q+u9fv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB1A8.F180AE9E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2175

milz wrote:

> Well, IF Lily was a Death Eater, it doesn't necessarily means she was
> as corrupt as V (since V. is about as corrupt as you can get, IMO).
> Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are Death Eaters with
> children and while we really don't know the extent of their parental
> love it seems that there is some.

Plenty of things successfully reproduce without parental love. Frogs,
snakes, sea turtles. Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle act pretty much as I'd expect
coming from households with a pronounced lack of love in any form.

--Amanda




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 25 20:13:34 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:13:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle
References: <8qoaft+t3m4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB1ED.84619F19@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2176

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
>
> > Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason besides
> age
>
> Huh? why is age a problem?

Because Tom Riddle Sr. was killed in roughly 1943.  If Lily was alive in
1943, she had Harry at age 37.   This doesn't *really* square with the
"young" woman who came out of the wand in GoF.  I don't subscribe to the
theory that James & Lily definitely had Harry within a year or two after
leaving Hogwarts themselves.  I think they had this important occupation
(whatever it was) for several years at least.  I would peg them as being
mid to late 20s when they had Harry.

> He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known he had
> a son.

He said in CoS that his father abandoned his mother before he was even
born -- because she was a witch.  You could be right - he might not know
he had a son.  But, if he sired another "witch" (Lily), he *sure*
wouldn't be proud of her.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 25 20:15:31 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:15:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qob77+ng10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB263.DC3F2157@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2177

Hi

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Everybody seems to assume this is a basic law of nature that can
> never be broken, but I don't recall Rowling ever saying that the last
> page of the last book can only be Harry's graduation day. Nope, I
> think you'll see his 19'th birthday, but no more.

She's said the series will end with Harry's final year at Hogwarts.  I
think she's been very clear about that actually -- one book for each
year at Hogwarts. I don't think we'll even necessarily see his 18th
birthday which will occur 1.5 mths after he "leaves" Hogwarts (they
don't really have graduations in the UK from that level of school from
what our UK members have said).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:15:56 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:15:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily: the Death Eater
References: <8qo2a1+rlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB27B.28563AAE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2178

milz wrote:

> In the first book, V. tells Harry that he killed Lily because she was
> protecting Harry.

More precisely, because she was in the way. And the line to Harry that "she
needn't have died." But is anyone suggesting Voldemort would have *spared*
her? Let her walk away? I think he had other ideas for her. Her death might
have been fortuitous, at least for her.

--Amanda




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Sep 25 20:26:23 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:26:23 -0700
Subject: A pet peeve about Sirius-like men in literature (was: Should Harry Potter die?)
In-Reply-To: <8qmd64+mq3n@eGroups.com>
References: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000925131326.02640ad0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2179

Not to diverge from the current discussion but...

At 02:27 AM 9/25/00 +0000, Susan McGee wrote:
>I don't think so. I foresee Ron and Hermione (who had become oddly
>formal with each other in Book IV)as being married, and Harry being
>the single one of the triangle, just as his godfather was.

At the risk of sounding like a male chauvinist pig, has anyone else
noticed how often woman authors take their most sexual male character
and put them through just as much hell as they can devise?  Charlotte Bronte
did it with Rochester (_Jane Eyre_), Louisa May Alcott with Dan (_Jo's Boys_),
and now JKR with Sirius.

I only hope Sirius in the end is offered some consolation and peace of mind,
like Rochester and unlike Dan.

(At least Jane Austen -- the Goddess bless her! -- Didn't do that sort of
  thing: The worst torture Mr. Knightley has to endure is the impertinence
  of  Mrs. Elton.)



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:21:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:21:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qnuv6+hev8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB3C4.C3EE96C2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2180

milz wrote:

> About the Basilisk...it was meant to be a *servant* of the Heir of
> Slytherin. In other words, the Heir could use it for what ever he/she
> wanted. Tom Riddle chose to use it for *evil*.

A trap many have fallen into, characters in many works of fiction and sometimes in real life---a strong enough character will be able to use something innately evil toward an ultimately good end.
I, for one, don't think it's possible.

And yes, in most European cultures snakes are Bad Things, and the Cockatrice and Basilisk both are big-news bad by nature. Their breath kills, their glance kills. Death hangs about them.
Slytherin might have gotten a bum deal, with an innate ability to speak to snakes, leading to the logical use of the king of serpents as a servant, and then being warped gradually by association.
Hmmm.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:28:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:28:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily: the Death Eater
References: <8qobm1+q8f2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB568.B8907123@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2181

heidi tandy wrote:

> I have my suspicions that
> Draco is just another of his parents' posessions, like a slightly
> interesting suit of armor, or alternatively, as a piece of modeling
> clay which they can make into something useful.

Ooooo, creepy, accurate image! And even worse, in my opinion, than parents who try to "live" through their kids.

Has anyone done a Draco/Dudley comparison? They have the same role in Harry's life, one at home and one at school.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:35:26 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:35:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A pet peeve about Sirius-like men in literature  (was: Should Harry Potter die?)
References: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer> <4.2.0.58.20000925131326.02640ad0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39CFB70D.4461C58B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2182

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> At the risk of sounding like a male chauvinist pig, has anyone else
> noticed how often woman authors take their most sexual male character
> and put them through just as much hell as they can devise?

You and my husband should get together. He's advanced the theory that women test the staying power of their men, regularly, before and during marriage. Perhaps some woman authors do the same to
their characters. They want to see a man with the ability to survive (life, and them), and a fictional one (in this respect) is better than reality. At least for us.

We won't get into *his* little foibles. But that folded laundry is *still* on the chair downstairs.

--Amanda "tote that barge! lift that bale! kill that scorpion!"




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Mon Sep 25 17:19:37 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:19:37 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone obtained this?  Is this legit?
References: <8qnqdq+fdtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c02731$6086c660$bfe3883e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 2183

I haven't managed to check the link (ISP being a pain) but if they are the
magic block cube things its not worth buying them at auction. Many WHSmiths
are still giving them out with any HP purchase and to be frank they aren't
worth much although they are sweet. Ditto the I Love Harry Potter book which
was free with advance orders.

Heather who still favours the local bookseller




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 20:48:35 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:48:35 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <39CFAFEC.6E9B33BD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qodn3+fait@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2184

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> 
> --Amanda, who has inherited Dad's Edgar Rice Burroughs collection 
and is simply *amazed* at how long Tarzan was around.....

But the survival of all for a long time is explained in one of them - 
_Tarzan's Quest_, isn't it?

-Brooks




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 25 20:51:07 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:51:07 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <39CFB263.DC3F2157@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qodrr+ic9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2185

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > 

>She's said the series will end with Harry's final year at Hogwarts. 

I don't think she's even said that.





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Sep 25 20:53:45 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:53:45 -0000
Subject: Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <8qnt6l+rg79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qoe0p+63ak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2186

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" wrote:
> > What's amazing is that neither Harry nor Hermione has ever shown 
any> > indication of investigating James and Lily's school or life 
> history.  > you'd think > that four years in a nurturing 
environment like Hogwarts would lead > to a> > LITTLE curiosity about 
his parents' lives.  Hermione would be more> the type> > to do the 
research, but you'd think she'd pass on any startling > news (such
> > as one or both of his parents being Slytherins) to him by now.  
We > do know> > that Harry has never discussed his near-assignment to 
Slytherin> House by the> > Sorting Hat with anyone but Dumbledore.> 
>Such a lack of curiosity almost defies belief.

Do we know there's someplace that lists all the students that have 
ever been at HW and which houses they were in?  I can't recall ever 
hearing about any such book or whatever.  Do you mean "Hogwarts: A 
History"?  Since Herm's read it, she would have mentioned it, I 
think.  As for a lack of curiosity, Harry's been pretty overwhelmed 
by eveything he's learned, all the changes in his life (pre-HW), 
and , each year at HW, he's been pretty busy w/ whatever's been going 
on to have many idle moments to ponder it.  If he ever has thought of 
it, he probably assumes his parents were in Gryff.  Or Huff or Raven, 
but How could it occur to him that J & L could ever have been in 
Slyth?  Perhaps it never occurred to him to wonder about it (which I 
think is more likely), the way it never occurred to him to wonder why 
Nev was raised by his grandmother.  
 
> >We know he spends time> > looking at the photo album that Hagrid 
assembled for him.  Why> wouldn't he> > want to read the details of 
what happened the night his mortal > enemy,> > Voldemort, killed his 
parents?

Supposedly, what happened that night is a big mystery.  No one knows 
the details, no one alive anyway, except Vold.  Harry was only 15 
mos. old, I wouldn't expect he'd have memories, and only Vold is 
left, unless he had someone with him when he killed J & L.

 
> > Could JKR really be sitting on some bombshell and expect us to 
take > the news> > without questioning why it was withheld for so 
many years?  I > dunno.....

I think she's absolutely sitting on a bombshell, and she has to know 
we're questioning why and what it is.  I said this earlier in a post, 
but I'll say it again:  Because the 'what house were the marauders  
et al, in' info has been kept from us (and Harry), it has to be a 
bombshell.  If we finally learn they were in Gryff, people will 
think, "Well, Duh..." and "If they were all in Gryff, why was it such 
a big secret?"  Plus in SS Hagrid says "Suppose the big myst'ry is 
why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before..."  It 
could be inferred they were in Slyth from this-- Slyths were Vold 
biggest supporters, so he wanted them all, esp. J & L, as they were 
so talented, powerful, etc.  ~Is~ a possibility.

> Ouch!  Sister M has punched a major hole into my theory that the 
> Marauders were Slytherins.  I will crawl back into my cave now.
> 
> -- Joywitch

Not at all.  I think this is as plausible as anything else we've seen 
in this series...

Kelley




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:52:07 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:52:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qodn3+fait@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFBAF7.8460240C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2187

Brooks R wrote:

>
> > --Amanda, who has inherited Dad's Edgar Rice Burroughs collection
> and is simply *amazed* at how long Tarzan was around.....
>
> But the survival of all for a long time is explained in one of them -
> _Tarzan's Quest_, isn't it?

Well, I've only gotten through the first seventeen so far. I'll let you
know.

--Amanda, lover of true pulp fiction




From editor at texas.net  Mon Sep 25 20:53:20 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:53:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qodrr+ic9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFBB40.9E5C68B3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2188

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> >She's said the series will end with Harry's final year at Hogwarts.
>
> I don't think she's even said that.

Well, I saw a couple of TV appearances where she said that; one was on Rosie, but I don't remember the other.

--Amanda




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 25 20:55:48 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:55:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's upbringing (was Lily the death Eater)
References: <8qobm1+q8f2@eGroups.com> <39CFB568.B8907123@texas.net>
Message-ID: <005201c02733$082483c0$396a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2189


>
> heidi tandy wrote:
>
> > I have my suspicions that
> > Draco is just another of his parents' posessions, like a slightly
> > interesting suit of armor, or alternatively, as a piece of modeling
> > clay which they can make into something useful.
>
> Ooooo, creepy, accurate image! And even worse, in my opinion, than parents
who try to "live" through their kids.
>

Ah, the answer to all the unanswerable questions....fanfiction....Cassandra
Claire's take on Draco's upbringing in "Draco Dormiens" rings pretty true to
me and is a lot like what heidi described above....(see www.fanfiction.net)

carole






From lrcjestes at msn.com  Mon Sep 25 21:05:18 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (lrcjestes)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:05:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A pet peeve about Sirius-like men in literature (was: Should Harry Potter die?)
References: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer> <4.2.0.58.20000925131326.02640ad0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <005301c02734$52ff0040$396a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2190

> At 02:27 AM 9/25/00 +0000, Susan McGee wrote:
> >I don't think so. I foresee Ron and Hermione (who had become oddly
> >formal with each other in Book IV)as being married, and Harry being
> >the single one of the triangle, just as his godfather was.
>
> At the risk of sounding like a male chauvinist pig, has anyone else
> noticed how often woman authors take their most sexual male character
> and put them through just as much hell as they can devise?  Charlotte
Bronte
> did it with Rochester (_Jane Eyre_), Louisa May Alcott with Dan (_Jo's
Boys_),
> and now JKR with Sirius.

Really, why can't wormtail be the one to lay down his life for Harry, it'd
be a lot kinder to all us Sirius fans out here....who will we all drool and
fantasize over, if Sirius is gone before book 7?


> I only hope Sirius in the end is offered some consolation and peace of
mind,
> like Rochester and unlike Dan.
>

At the risk of a "me too" post.....me too.  Although he's another character
that seems to be a favorite of those predicting deaths in future
books...giving up his life to save Harry as any decent godfather would.  I
dearly hope not as it crush me and taint the books in my esteem....He just
has to live through book 7 and a few years after...meet Cordelia, settle
down...have a couple kids and live the rest of his days in peace...then I'll
be happy!

carole




> (At least Jane Austen -- the Goddess bless her! -- Didn't do that sort of
>   thing: The worst torture Mr. Knightley has to endure is the impertinence
>   of  Mrs. Elton.)
>
>
>
>                                                  -- Dave
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>






From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Sep 25 21:18:53 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:18:53 +0100
Subject: Wands and Animagi
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEENDCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2191

It seems fairly obvious that animagi can transform from human to animal form
at will, and without the need for a wand. This is demonstrated by the fact
that Sirius transformed while in Azkaban but I can see absolutely no reason
why he would have his wand. In fact in PoA, chapter 19, Sirius says "I had
no hope of driving them [Dementors] away from me without a wand ...". So it
can safely be assumed that no wand is needed for the animagus
transformation.

However I get the impression that it is possible for an animagus to keep
their wand on them when they have transformed. Their physical features and
glasses are transformed in some way (c.f. Skeeter and McGonagall) and in the
process the size of these objects is reduced. I think the same can therefore
happen for the wands.

My theory is that Peter was at the Potters' the night that all the action
took place. When Voldemort was reduced to nearly nothing he then popped in,
took the wand, and then went after Sirius.

"The Priori Incantatem would not have been possible if he hadn't had his
original wand. The wands would not have connected and the curses would not
have been regurgitated."

JKR said that something that was mentioned in PS would be very important to
the ending of GoF. This clearly is the wand being brothers and the effect
that then happens in GoF. There would be no point for us to have been told
about the wands in PS and then for the effect that occurs in GoF to have
been caused by Harry. This effect could also be, and I think will be,
important in the later books.

Simon (who should stop making predictions for future books, if for no other
reason then that is one of my FAQ's)





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 25 21:55:08 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:55:08 -0000
Subject: Wands and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEENDCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8qohjs+dmek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2192

Well firstly the House Elves, who IMO are the group most likely to be 
developed in furture books (but thats another post), don't need wands 
to do their magic either.  OT but I wanted to point that out.

Secondly, (I've said this before, and I'm saying it again)...When the 
PI first took place it was Harry's wand to which the light thing was 
traveling, and therefore it would have been Harry's wand to 
regurgitate spells. But it didn't.  V.'s wand was the one to spit 
back its spells, not Harry's and this was caused by-?  One might 
venture to say that Harry was a more powerful wizard but I really 
don't think so, at least not yet. The best explanation is that Harry 
had a stronger will.  If his will could change the course of the PI 
then IMHO in could also affect the order of the PI, though that to is 
another post.

Scott

> There would be no point for us to have been told
> about the wands in PS and then for the effect that occurs in GoF to 
have
> been caused by Harry. This effect could also be, and I think will 
be,
> important in the later books.
> 
> Simon (who should stop making predictions for future books, if for 
no other
> reason then that is one of my FAQ's)




From linsenma at hic.net  Mon Sep 25 22:03:20 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:03:20 -0500
Subject: Time Period in Book 7
References: <8qodrr+ic9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFCBA8.35CEFDC7@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2193

Hi

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer >
>
> >She's said the series will end with Harry's final year at Hogwarts.
>
> I don't think she's even said that.

Oh?  You might want to read the following interviews:

1.  JKR AOL Chat -- 4 May 2000 -- (Link on the Unofficial Harry Potter
Fan Club page)
    Q: "How many HP books do you envision writing before the series
ends, and how will he and his friends get?"
    A: "There will be seven books.  One for each of his years at
Hogwarts and he'll turn 17 at the start of book 7."

Straight from the horse's mouth . . . .

2.  "Harry and Me," The Times -- 30 June 2000.  Exclusive interview with
Ann Treneman.
        "She came up with the idea for Harry Potter on a delayed train
and knew from the beginning there would be seven books -- one for every
year he is at boarding school . . . . "

        The narration in this one is interspersed with direct quotes
from JKR -- I would imagine the above is just a paraphrase of what JKR
said (keeping some things in text rather than just a string of quotes to
make it more readable).

3.  Transcript of her interview on "60 Minutes" -- 12 Sept 1999.
        Stahl says in voiceover: "Long before she was published, Rowling
had 7 HP books meticulously plotted out on grids; one for each year
Harry spends at wizard school . . . . "

By contrast, I've never seen any references to Book 7 extending beyond
the end of his final year at Hogwarts (and certainly not to his 19th
birthday).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vjmerri at iquest.net  Mon Sep 25 22:12:54 2000
From: vjmerri at iquest.net (Vicki Merriman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:12:54 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
In-Reply-To: <8qodrr+ic9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qoil6+o07a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2194

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > 
> 
> >She's said the series will end with Harry's final year at 
Hogwarts. 
> 
> I don't think she's even said that.

Yes, I think she did.  I can't quote specifics, but each book is 
labelled year one, year two, etc.  She has adamantly stated that she 
will be writing no more than 7 books.  Now of course she could change 
her mind, as others have done based on outrageous advance offers, but 
right now she truly has no intention of writing past book seven, and 
I think she has stated in an interview that each book covers one year 
of Harry's life, so while book seven might at the MOST go a month or 
two past graduation, year seven, graduation year, will be the final 
book.

With four out of seven books written, they ALL end, without 
exception, at the Kings Cross train station as the friends separate 
for the summer.  Book seven might go off that rule a tad, but I think 
she will maintain her current habits.

Remember, she has written the last paragraph and the last sentence 
ends with the word "scar", I'm thinking that somewhere between 5 and 
seven after the final fight with Voldemort, the scar will magically 
disappear, and that the last line ends with "the boy without a 
scar."  or perhaps "young man..." or even "Harry Potter took comfort 
in knowing that he was no longer 'the boy with the scar.'"   Remember 
that Dumbledore is always going on about how useful a scar can be.  
So I think the scar contains some residual magic that will be used to 
help defeat Voldemort, and then will disappear.

By the way, I don't think she has any intention of killing off Harry.

Vicki




From brooksar at indy.net  Mon Sep 25 22:18:15 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:18:15 -0000
Subject: 'Muggles for Harry Potter' honored
Message-ID: <8qoiv7+ftnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2195

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/bannedbooks000925.html




From eliasheldon at ivillage.com  Mon Sep 25 23:12:49 2000
From: eliasheldon at ivillage.com (eliasheldon at ivillage.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:12:49 -0000
Subject: James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
In-Reply-To: <39CFB1ED.84619F19@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qom5h+du6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2196

Hey - here's an interesting theory that just occured to me:

What if Tom Riddle (Voldy) is the father of James Potter?

 - wait, this couldn't happen, one might argue, and point out the 
dates and ages
 - but - one thing we must remember is something that was said in 
PoA, and I am paraphrasing:  many witches and wizards have messed up 
their lives with time manipulation.  Perhaps Tom Riddle was one of 
them!
 - Tom, James, and Harry all have that jet black hair - perhaps that 
is one of the reasons JKR pointed that out....
 - we know nothing of James' or Lily's parentage, so this is a theory 
about how James' could have been affected by time manipulation
 - this would give us a good sense as to the motivation of Voldy to 
kill Harry - maybe the Trelawny prophesy was that Voldy's grandson 
would be his undoing?

This whole time manipulation thing will probably come up again....

Thoughts?

 - E

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> 
> > "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> >
> > > Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason 
besides
> > age
> >
> > Huh? why is age a problem?
> 
> Because Tom Riddle Sr. was killed in roughly 1943.  If Lily was 
alive in
> 1943, she had Harry at age 37.   This doesn't *really* square with 
the
> "young" woman who came out of the wand in GoF.  I don't subscribe 
to the
> theory that James & Lily definitely had Harry within a year or two 
after
> leaving Hogwarts themselves.  I think they had this important 
occupation
> (whatever it was) for several years at least.  I would peg them as 
being
> mid to late 20s when they had Harry.
> 
> > He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known he 
had
> > a son.
> 
> He said in CoS that his father abandoned his mother before he was 
even
> born -- because she was a witch.  You could be right - he might not 
know
> he had a son.  But, if he sired another "witch" (Lily), he *sure*
> wouldn't be proud of her.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep 26 00:48:34 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:48:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <v02140b12b5f5a29f3eea@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2197


> "Although she would occasionally tease about never saying never when
>asked if she would follow Harry off to college the author has
>remained adamant that Harry Potter will end with book number seven.
>She admitted to feeling sad at the idea that Harry Potter will end
>someday and feels there will be a "bereavement" when she has written
>the last line on the final page but she insists that "There will be
>no Harry Potter midlife crisis or Harry Potter as an old wizard."
>
>I stand by my prediction, poor Harry will not live past his 19'th
>birthday.
>
The above quote means nothing.  As a writer, I go through a bereavement
period every time I finish something.  I'm sorry that i can't go on, but
there's a point where you just can't go on.  She, and us, will go through a
mourning period about the *books being over.*

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "She's Come Undone" by Wally Lamb
***********************************************************





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 00:38:03 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:38:03 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's evil
In-Reply-To: <39CFB3C4.C3EE96C2@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qor5b+nv3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2198

Frankly I think there's a duality in most things. For example, 
acetamenophen (Tylenol) is a poison if it is taken in large 
quantities. On the other hand, if used judiciously and wisely, it is 
a pretty good medicine for headaches, fevers and muscle pains. 
Likewise a pair of scissors can be used judiciously and wisely to cut 
a piece of paper or it can be used to stab someone. These examples, 
like the Basilisk, are defined as "good" or "evil" by their usage. 
Their usage, of course, depends upon the intent of the user. And that 
depends upon the choices of the user, just as Dumbledore told 
Harry in CoS and told the entire school in GoF.
;-)
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> milz wrote:
> 
> > About the Basilisk...it was meant to be a *servant* of the Heir of
> > Slytherin. In other words, the Heir could use it for what ever 
he/she
> > wanted. Tom Riddle chose to use it for *evil*.
> 
> A trap many have fallen into, characters in many works of fiction 
and sometimes in real life---a strong enough character will be able 
to use something innately evil toward an ultimately good end.
> I, for one, don't think it's possible.
> 
> And yes, in most European cultures snakes are Bad Things, and the 
Cockatrice and Basilisk both are big-news bad by nature. Their breath 
kills, their glance kills. Death hangs about them.
> Slytherin might have gotten a bum deal, with an innate ability to 
speak to snakes, leading to the logical use of the king of serpents 
as a servant, and then being warped gradually by association.
> Hmmm.
> 
> --Amanda




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 00:46:56 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:46:56 -0000
Subject: Wands and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <8qohjs+dmek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qorm0+hq06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2199

Go House Elves, Go! (I'm partial to those magical creatures myself 
and secretly wish they really existed 'cause I really need one at 
home!)

I've always questioned the necessity of wands. Harry was clearly able 
to do spells without a wand...the boa constrictor incident, the Aunt 
Marge incident. That leads me to believe wands just provide a fixed 
outlet for the magical power/energies of wizarding folk. 
;-)

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Well firstly the House Elves, who IMO are the group most likely to 
be 
> developed in furture books (but thats another post), don't need 
wands 
> to do their magic either.  OT but I wanted to point that out.
> 
> Secondly, (I've said this before, and I'm saying it again)...When 
the 
> PI first took place it was Harry's wand to which the light thing 
was 
> traveling, and therefore it would have been Harry's wand to 
> regurgitate spells. But it didn't.  V.'s wand was the one to spit 
> back its spells, not Harry's and this was caused by-?  One might 
> venture to say that Harry was a more powerful wizard but I really 
> don't think so, at least not yet. The best explanation is that 
Harry 
> had a stronger will.  If his will could change the course of the PI 
> then IMHO in could also affect the order of the PI, though that to 
is 
> another post.
> 
> Scott
> 
> > There would be no point for us to have been told
> > about the wands in PS and then for the effect that occurs in GoF 
to 
> have
> > been caused by Harry. This effect could also be, and I think will 
> be,
> > important in the later books.
> > 
> > Simon (who should stop making predictions for future books, if 
for 
> no other
> > reason then that is one of my FAQ's)




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 01:18:37 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:18:37 -0000
Subject: James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
In-Reply-To: <8qom5h+du6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qothd+dqep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2200

Incredibly short post coming....

Then wouldn't Harry of seen Grandaddy V. in the Mirror of Erised?  

Scott  


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasheldon at i... wrote:
> Hey - here's an interesting theory that just occured to me:
> 
> What if Tom Riddle (Voldy) is the father of James Potter?
> 
>  - wait, this couldn't happen, one might argue, and point out the 
> dates and ages
>  - but - one thing we must remember is something that was said in 
> PoA, and I am paraphrasing:  many witches and wizards have messed 
up 
> their lives with time manipulation.  Perhaps Tom Riddle was one of 
> them!
>  - Tom, James, and Harry all have that jet black hair - perhaps 
that 
> is one of the reasons JKR pointed that out....
>  - we know nothing of James' or Lily's parentage, so this is a 
theory 
> about how James' could have been affected by time manipulation
>  - this would give us a good sense as to the motivation of Voldy to 
> kill Harry - maybe the Trelawny prophesy was that Voldy's grandson 
> would be his undoing?
> 
> This whole time manipulation thing will probably come up again....
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
>  - E
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
> <linsenma at h...> wrote:
> > Hi --
> > 
> > eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> > 
> > > "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason 
> besides
> > > age
> > >
> > > Huh? why is age a problem?
> > 
> > Because Tom Riddle Sr. was killed in roughly 1943.  If Lily was 
> alive in
> > 1943, she had Harry at age 37.   This doesn't *really* square 
with 
> the
> > "young" woman who came out of the wand in GoF.  I don't subscribe 
> to the
> > theory that James & Lily definitely had Harry within a year or 
two 
> after
> > leaving Hogwarts themselves.  I think they had this important 
> occupation
> > (whatever it was) for several years at least.  I would peg them 
as 
> being
> > mid to late 20s when they had Harry.
> > 
> > > He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known 
he 
> had
> > > a son.
> > 
> > He said in CoS that his father abandoned his mother before he was 
> even
> > born -- because she was a witch.  You could be right - he might 
not 
> know
> > he had a son.  But, if he sired another "witch" (Lily), he *sure*
> > wouldn't be proud of her.
> > 
> > Penny
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 26 01:08:35 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:08:35 -0400
Subject: Slytherins
References: <8qor5b+nv3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39CFF713.D0F85D70@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2201

Kelley wrote:

>   As for a lack of curiosity, Harry's been pretty overwhelmed
> by eveything he's learned, all the changes in his life (pre-HW),
> and , each year at HW, he's been pretty busy w/ whatever's been going
> on to have many idle moments to ponder it.  If he ever has thought of
> it, he probably assumes his parents were in Gryff.  Or Huff or Raven,
> but How could it occur to him that J & L could ever have been in
> Slyth?  Perhaps it never occurred to him to wonder about it ...

I would be surprised if there are no pictures in that photo album Hagrid
gave him of his dad in his quidditch robes, which would clearly indicate
which house James was in.
Can't  you see it?
"My dad wasn't in Slytherin! I've got photos of him in his Quidditch robes,
and they're scarlet coloured, not green!" Harry pulled the photo album
Hagrid had made for him during his first year at Hogwarts out of his bag and
opened it to one of the early pages.
"But Harry," Draco drawled, "That photo was taken at the Halloween party.
He's obviosly dressed in a silly little costume. Your father was the
Slytherin Seeker.  I know because I've got his old locker in the changing
rooms."







From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 01:21:42 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:21:42 -0000
Subject: James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
In-Reply-To: <8qothd+dqep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qotn6+avvq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2202

In the first book, it mentions that Harry saw one of his grandfathers 
sitting in a chair (or something like that) while looking at the 
Mirror of Erised.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Incredibly short post coming....
> 
> Then wouldn't Harry of seen Grandaddy V. in the Mirror of Erised?  
> 
> Scott  
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasheldon at i... wrote:
> > Hey - here's an interesting theory that just occured to me:
> > 
> > What if Tom Riddle (Voldy) is the father of James Potter?
> > 
> >  - wait, this couldn't happen, one might argue, and point out the 
> > dates and ages
> >  - but - one thing we must remember is something that was said in 
> > PoA, and I am paraphrasing:  many witches and wizards have messed 
> up 
> > their lives with time manipulation.  Perhaps Tom Riddle was one
of 
> > them!
> >  - Tom, James, and Harry all have that jet black hair - perhaps 
> that 
> > is one of the reasons JKR pointed that out....
> >  - we know nothing of James' or Lily's parentage, so this is a 
> theory 
> > about how James' could have been affected by time manipulation
> >  - this would give us a good sense as to the motivation of Voldy 
to 
> > kill Harry - maybe the Trelawny prophesy was that Voldy's
grandson 
> > would be his undoing?
> > 
> > This whole time manipulation thing will probably come up again....
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > 
> >  - E
> > 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
> > <linsenma at h...> wrote:
> > > Hi --
> > > 
> > > eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> > > 
> > > > "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason 
> > besides
> > > > age
> > > >
> > > > Huh? why is age a problem?
> > > 
> > > Because Tom Riddle Sr. was killed in roughly 1943.  If Lily was 
> > alive in
> > > 1943, she had Harry at age 37.   This doesn't *really* square 
> with 
> > the
> > > "young" woman who came out of the wand in GoF.  I don't 
subscribe 
> > to the
> > > theory that James & Lily definitely had Harry within a year or 
> two 
> > after
> > > leaving Hogwarts themselves.  I think they had this important 
> > occupation
> > > (whatever it was) for several years at least.  I would peg them 
> as 
> > being
> > > mid to late 20s when they had Harry.
> > > 
> > > > He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known 
> he 
> > had
> > > > a son.
> > > 
> > > He said in CoS that his father abandoned his mother before he 
was 
> > even
> > > born -- because she was a witch.  You could be right - he might 
> not 
> > know
> > > he had a son.  But, if he sired another "witch" (Lily), he 
*sure*
> > > wouldn't be proud of her.
> > > 
> > > Penny
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 01:24:54 2000
From: ReinaKata02 at yahoo.com (Kaitlin )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:24:54 -0000
Subject: 'Muggles for Harry Potter' honored
In-Reply-To: <8qoiv7+ftnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qott6+7524@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2203

Are the "Muggles for Harry Potter" pins still available?  There are 
no bookstores in my area that sell them--can I get one online?
~Kaitlin




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 01:33:54 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:33:54 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
Message-ID: <F69NzFiPNl4iZWw8gRz00004b17@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2204


but what you see is your heart's desire - not the truth (what ever that is) 
I don't think Harry's fantseys include Vodemort/Tom Riddle Snr/Riddle Family 
as close family members

Or at least I hope not :-)

storm

----Original Message Follows----
From: "milz " <absinthe at mad.scientist.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:21:42 -0000

In the first book, it mentions that Harry saw one of his grandfathers
sitting in a chair (or something like that) while looking at the
Mirror of Erised.

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...>
wrote:
 > Incredibly short post coming....
 >
 > Then wouldn't Harry of seen Grandaddy V. in the Mirror of Erised?
 >
 > Scott
 >
 >
 > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eliasheldon at i... wrote:
 > > Hey - here's an interesting theory that just occured to me:
 > >
 > > What if Tom Riddle (Voldy) is the father of James Potter?
 > >
 > >  - wait, this couldn't happen, one might argue, and point out the
 > > dates and ages
 > >  - but - one thing we must remember is something that was said in
 > > PoA, and I am paraphrasing:  many witches and wizards have messed
 > up
 > > their lives with time manipulation.  Perhaps Tom Riddle was one
of
 > > them!
 > >  - Tom, James, and Harry all have that jet black hair - perhaps
 > that
 > > is one of the reasons JKR pointed that out....
 > >  - we know nothing of James' or Lily's parentage, so this is a
 > theory
 > > about how James' could have been affected by time manipulation
 > >  - this would give us a good sense as to the motivation of Voldy
to
 > > kill Harry - maybe the Trelawny prophesy was that Voldy's
grandson
 > > would be his undoing?
 > >
 > > This whole time manipulation thing will probably come up again....
 > >
 > > Thoughts?
 > >
 > >  - E
 > >
 > > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer
 > > <linsenma at h...> wrote:
 > > > Hi --
 > > >
 > > > eggplant88 at h... wrote:
 > > >
 > > > > "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
 > > > >
 > > > > > Lily and Petunia Riddle?  Not feasible for another reason
 > > besides
 > > > > age
 > > > >
 > > > > Huh? why is age a problem?
 > > >
 > > > Because Tom Riddle Sr. was killed in roughly 1943.  If Lily was
 > > alive in
 > > > 1943, she had Harry at age 37.   This doesn't *really* square
 > with
 > > the
 > > > "young" woman who came out of the wand in GoF.  I don't
subscribe
 > > to the
 > > > theory that James & Lily definitely had Harry within a year or
 > two
 > > after
 > > > leaving Hogwarts themselves.  I think they had this important
 > > occupation
 > > > (whatever it was) for several years at least.  I would peg them
 > as
 > > being
 > > > mid to late 20s when they had Harry.
 > > >
 > > > > He shunned his wife not his son, he might not even have known
 > he
 > > had
 > > > > a son.
 > > >
 > > > He said in CoS that his father abandoned his mother before he
was
 > > even
 > > > born -- because she was a witch.  You could be right - he might
 > not
 > > know
 > > > he had a son.  But, if he sired another "witch" (Lily), he
*sure*
 > > > wouldn't be proud of her.
 > > >
 > > > Penny
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 01:43:21 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:43:21 -0000
Subject: The Harry Stuff...and a query.
Message-ID: <8qouvp+fslc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2205

I was at the Warner Bros. store on Sat. and I, along with everyone 
from toddlers, to grandparents could not wait to check out the Harry 
Potter stuff.

I saw a lot of the same things and some new stuff too.  I got a set 
of pens, a flipbook w/ the Crest and some pretend Harry glasses (Ok 
the latter isn't very practical but I couldn't resist and they were 
only $4).  Among the new things there was a nice picture frame and 
some coffee cups, a more shirts hats etc., a nice kids Gryffindor 
book sack, a quidditch Gym bag, and a notebook w/ Harry Potter 
emblazoned on the front and on the inside a pic of eyes in a cloud of 
green smoke and and the words You-Know-Who, or as one lady put it, 
Moldy-Voldy. 

They had the Costume too, which I didn't like.  However I an dying to 
dress up as Harry for Halloween, not to go trick or treating 
but....anywho I s'pose I must find someone to make my robes for me if 
I 
do and I can't decide whether they should have an open front or be 
more like the style of a choir robe...any ideas?

Scott




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 01:43:36 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:43:36 -0000
Subject: 'Muggles for Harry Potter' honored
In-Reply-To: <8qott6+7524@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qov08+ngrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2206

Go to the ABFFE web site ( http://www.abffe.com ) in their store you 
can purchase a single Muggle button...I think it's like $3.00 or 
something.
Milz
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Kaitlin " <ReinaKata02 at y...> wrote:
> Are the "Muggles for Harry Potter" pins still available?  There are 
> no bookstores in my area that sell them--can I get one online?
> ~Kaitlin






From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 01:49:59 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:49:59 -0000
Subject: The Harry Stuff...and a query.
In-Reply-To: <8qouvp+fslc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qovc7+2srj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2207

Hmmm...that's a interesting thing you brought up about the robes. I 
would think they look like choir robes or academic robes since 
Hogwarts is a school. Anyhow, I always thought academic robes 
(especially the Masters robes with the scrolly looking sleeve cuff) 
looked pretty wizardly.

I guess you can always rent out an academic robe for Halloween (or
you 
might be able to purchase one from a supplier).

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> I was at the Warner Bros. store on Sat. and I, along with everyone 
> from toddlers, to grandparents could not wait to check out the
Harry 
> Potter stuff.
> 
> I saw a lot of the same things and some new stuff too.  I got a set 
> of pens, a flipbook w/ the Crest and some pretend Harry glasses (Ok 
> the latter isn't very practical but I couldn't resist and they were 
> only $4).  Among the new things there was a nice picture frame and 
> some coffee cups, a more shirts hats etc., a nice kids Gryffindor 
> book sack, a quidditch Gym bag, and a notebook w/ Harry Potter 
> emblazoned on the front and on the inside a pic of eyes in a cloud 
of 
> green smoke and and the words You-Know-Who, or as one lady put it, 
> Moldy-Voldy. 
> 
> They had the Costume too, which I didn't like.  However I an dying 
to 
> dress up as Harry for Halloween, not to go trick or treating 
> but....anywho I s'pose I must find someone to make my robes for me 
if 
> I 
> do and I can't decide whether they should have an open front or be 
> more like the style of a choir robe...any ideas?
> 
> Scott




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Sep 26 02:04:17 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:04:17 -0000
Subject: Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <39CFF713.D0F85D70@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8qp071+gekm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2208

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> I would be surprised if there are no pictures in that photo album 
Hagrid gave him of his dad in his quidditch robes, which would 
clearly indicate> which house James was in.
> Can't  you see it?> "My dad wasn't in Slytherin! I've got photos of 
him in his Quidditch robes,> and they're scarlet coloured, not 
green!" Harry pulled the photo album> Hagrid had made for him during 
his first year at Hogwarts out of his bag and> opened it to one of 
the early pages.> "But Harry," Draco drawled, "That photo was taken 
at the Halloween party.> He's obviosly dressed in a silly little 
costume. Your father was the> Slytherin Seeker.  I know because I've 
got his old locker in the changing> rooms."

Ha!  Good one, Heidi.  Your reply made me wonder, is it stated that 
there are pictures from J & L's days at HW, or just from after?  All 
I can specifically remember is that some of the pictures are from 
their wedding.

To comment on "Wands and Animagi":  maybe it's just certain types of 
magic one can do without a wand...

And to comment on "James' father":  The ages make it possible for 
Vold to be James' father.  V's about thirty years older than J.  I 
thought of this in response to the info that TR, J, and Harry all 
have the jet-black hair.  Also, V could be Lily's 'real' father 
(going with my "Lily was left on her parents' doorstep just like 
Harry" theory).  Lots of people have said the V as J's father theory 
is too cliche, too "I am your father, Luke", but JKR's not beyond 
using a cliche or two.  I give equal weight to V NOT being J's father 
because it could be JKR intentionally misleading us.  She's going to 
zig when we thought she was gonna zag.

Okay, that's all for now...

Kelley 




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Tue Sep 26 02:15:54 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:15:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A pet peeve about Sirius-like men in literature  (was: Should Harry Potter die?)
References: <00c301c02661$f7474460$d34601d5@oemcomputer> <4.2.0.58.20000925131326.02640ad0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <39D006DA.F68F7D78@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2209



Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

>
> Not to diverge from the current discussion but...
>
> At the risk of sounding like a male chauvinist pig, has anyone else
> noticed how often woman authors take their most sexual male character
> and put them through just as much hell as they can devise?  Charlotte Bronte
> did it with Rochester (_Jane Eyre_), Louisa May Alcott with Dan (_Jo's Boys_),
> and now JKR with Sirius.
>

Ahem.  Actually, the writer I can think of who does this the MOST is a man, Tim Powers.  Ever read _Dinner at Deviant's Palace_, or _Last Call_, or _Anubis Gates_ or _Stress of Her Regard_?  I
used to tease him about doing character development by dismemberment.  A fine writer, but hoo boy, I sure wouldn't want to be one of his male protagonists.  They arrive at the end of the books
much better people.  But along with their friends, their innocence, and their illusions, they've usually lost an eye or several fingers or their lower jaw or something else along the way.

Peg




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:16:01 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:16:01 -0000
Subject: Hi Brooks...
In-Reply-To: <39CEA453.B2C9590B@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8qp0t1+cop7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2210

Hi Brooks:

I *still* am awed by the first chapter of *Wartime* (I like that 
title).  I want to do a close line edit... give me less than a week.  
I still owe several e-mails and the beginning of the week is my 
busiest time.  :-)

BTW, thanks for the recommendation!

--Ebony (who is currently avoiding her theory textbook by re-reading 
the Children of the Lion series  :-))






--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
wrote:
> Ebony - and anybody else  - go find _The Best of Eric Frank 
Russell_ and
> read "I am Nothing".
> 
> Unfortunately, this will be hard to find.
> 
> -Broolks




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:26:04 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:26:04 -0000
Subject: Wands and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEENDCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8qp1fs+t45s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2211

The difference between an animal transfiguration and being a true 
animagus has got something to do with will... Sirius in PoA says 
something to the effect of 'I could transform into a dog at will', 
which implies that Animagi can transform without a wand just by 
willing themselves to do it. Personally I don't really see the 
difference between Animagi who are 'true' and animagi who use a wand, 
and I agree with what Simon said:

> I get the impression that it is possible for an animagus to keep
> their wand on them when they have transformed. Their physical      
> features and glasses are transformed in some way (c.f. Skeeter and 
> McGonagall) and in the process the size of these objects is        
> reduced. I think the same can therefore happen for the wands.

If wands are transformed along with your clothes, glasses, etc, 
anyway, then there's really not that great a difference 
between 'true' animagi and 'wand' animagi. Perhaps 'wand' animagi are 
at a greater risk of stuffing things up, eg, Krum's shark 
transformation for the second task went all wrong. Are animagi who 
use a wand not animagi? are they just ordinary wizards doing an 
animal transfiguration? the complexities of the Animagi issue have me 
all the muddle!
 
 




From mousecarcass at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:38:22 2000
From: mousecarcass at hotmail.com (M.C. Pandora)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:38:22 GMT
Subject: D/G; mixing stories in Subreality
Message-ID: <F1694lcFAcYNpGZl6um000041e3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2212

Thinking of Ebony's post, regarding Cassandra's Draco and Lori's Ginny... 
(and bare with me for being behind, you all post like wildfire.)

http://www.subreality.com/sc.htm

For those without a browser, Subreality is something like a place for fan 
fiction characters to interact beyond their writer's creation. This is 
mostly done in the context of 'the [Subreality] Cafe', though there are 
certain themed Cafes/lounges/huts all over Subreality.

While there is enough HP fanfic out there to justify a 'Three Broomsticks' 
in Subreality, the idea of Draco and Ginny meeting at the Subreality Cafe is 
quite intriguing. I'm sure broom closets are easy enough to arrange 
anywhere. The age difference is a bit worrying, but an older Ginny would 
better match Draco.

I have some ideas along these lines, it came to me in a flash of inspiration 
last night and didn't let me sleep. D/G cliches in HP fanfic, even D/? and 
G/? are being avidly sought--probably directly to me rather than the list.

All this is assuming I'd have Cassandra and Lori's permission, of course.

(I wouldn't mind seeing Cassandra's Ginny and Draco together, the bedroom 
scene in 'Draco Sinister' was welcome humour after the nightmare.)

shorah,
MC




_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 02:48:13 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:48:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Harry Stuff...and a query.
References: <8qouvp+fslc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D00E6C.D17159BF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2213

Scott wrote:

> I can't decide whether they should have an open front or be
> more like the style of a choir robe...any ideas?

Well, with all the time they spend reaching into their robes, I imagine if
they don't open in the front they at least have a *really* deep neck.

--Amanda




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:52:43 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:52:43 -0000
Subject: Idiot Me and Validation
In-Reply-To: <8qp0t1+cop7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qp31r+s9l0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2214

Had to happen sometime, didn't it?  The post for Brooks was *not* 
meant to go to the entire list.  I can't blame my computer for this 
one--instead of hitting "reply to", I left it as "reply to all".  I'm 
*so* sorry!  

(All you folks who I owe e-mails and FAQ work, know that I'm not 
sitting around twiddling my thumbs and reading B-novels... I 
*usually* have to read myself to sleep... the COTL series is for that 
purpose.  Although it might be argued that the theory textbook would 
be a more suitable bedmate...  :-))

Paper update--tonight I ran my topic idea by a classmate who is a TA  
and Ph.D. candidate in children's lit.  She was *really* intrigued by 
my abstract and has offered to provide advising and guidance for the 
paper.  Yes!

--Ebony




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 02:53:23 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:53:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Animagi
References: <8qp1fs+t45s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D00FA3.8BCE725B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2215

Sam Brown wrote:

> The difference between an animal transfiguration and being a true
> animagus has got something to do with will... Sirius in PoA says
> something to the effect of 'I could transform into a dog at will',
> which implies that Animagi can transform without a wand just by
> willing themselves to do it.

I get the impression that magic without a wand is much more dangerous and
uncontrollable. Look at what happens to Harry---freeing the snake, blowing
up his aunt, etc. These are all things along the lines of what he was
feeling, but very undirected. Becoming an Animagus is supposed to be both
hard *and* dangerous, and I figure it's because you have to learn to shape
the magic, un-wanded, and you're shaping yourself.

--Amanda




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:58:39 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:58:39 -0000
Subject: Prioro Incantatem or Possible Cover-Up?
In-Reply-To: <8qo6qn+o7gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qp3cv+h0b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2216

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> Sorry Monika, I ain't buyin' that one yet.  My thesis is that 
Harry's 
> innate power caused an effect that was largely indistinguishable 
from 
> Priori Incantatem.
> 
> Dumbledore's been wrong before, you know.

I may be wrong.  But it makes sense that the *biggest* thing 
Dumbledore is sitting on has to do with Harry specifically.  All the 
best theorists and writers I've met over the past few months have 
come up with some pretty plausible scenarios.

Then again, we could *all* be wrong.  Perhaps Harry is really a Squib 
turned magic by some wizard Frankenstein.

I'm kidding.  Really.

--Ebony (who has been wading through everyone's opinion on Mary 
Shelley these days)




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 02:58:47 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:58:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin's evil
References: <8qor5b+nv3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D010E7.5CCD813D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2217

milz wrote:

> Frankly I think there's a duality in most things. For example,
> acetamenophen (Tylenol) is a poison if it is taken in large
> quantities. On the other hand, if used judiciously and wisely, it is
> a pretty good medicine for headaches, fevers and muscle pains.
> Likewise a pair of scissors can be used judiciously and wisely to cut
> a piece of paper or it can be used to stab someone. These examples,
> like the Basilisk, are defined as "good" or "evil" by their usage.

Nope, must disagree. Acetominaphen and scissors (at least Muggle scissors)
have no life and no innate nature. Living creatures are a horse of a
different color; they will have "bents." JKR does freely invent creatures,
but they tend to be based on folkloric themes, and nowhere that the
Cockatrice or the Basilisk are found are they anywhere near good. The
folklore of plain ol' snakes does vary, but in European folklore they're not
real desirable, either. One can argue that it was not the choice of how to
use the basilisk, but the choice to use it at all, that shows Slytherin (or
Riddle) was inclined to evil.

--Amanda




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 03:09:41 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:09:41 -0000
Subject: Austen, JKR, and Sirius
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000925131326.02640ad0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8qp41l+br8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2218

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
>  I only hope Sirius in the end is offered some consolation and 
peace of mind, like Rochester and unlike Dan.
> 
> (At least Jane Austen -- the Goddess bless her! -- Didn't do that 
sort of
>   thing: The worst torture Mr. Knightley has to endure is the 
impertinence
>   of  Mrs. Elton.)

In my outline for the paper, I've already made a note to explore 
something along these lines.  Reading PoA via psychoanalysis, the 
Sirius in the dream-content of the culminating chapters is a 
condensed symbol of JKR's Austen-influenced dream-thoughts.  

Of course, this is all still in hypothesis stage.  

--Ebony (who thanks heaven that there is *plenty* of Austen criticism 
floating around the library)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 03:16:36 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:16:36 -0000
Subject: Robes (was The Harry Stuff...and a query...)
In-Reply-To: <39D00E6C.D17159BF@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qp4ek+dccf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2219

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Scott wrote:
> 
> > I can't decide whether they should have an open front or be
> > more like the style of a choir robe...any ideas?
> 
> Well, with all the time they spend reaching into their robes, I 
imagine if
> they don't open in the front they at least have a *really* deep 
neck.
> 
> --Amanda


I used to imagine their regular class robes were like informal lab 
coats until I joined this forum in July.  The best example I can give 
is from the chapter illustration in the American edition of GoF, 
Chapter 17, "The Four Champions".  Underneath his robe, Harry is 
*clearly* wearing regular Muggle clothing.

However, someone pointed out to me that there is indication that 
these robes could be worn without street clothing underneath.  

Since all these wizards wear are robes, can't there be several 
styles?  We've seen dress robes and Quidditch robes as two possible 
variations.

My best unsolicited advice is this, Scott--use your imagination.

--Ebony




From xerxes909 at excite.com  Tue Sep 26 03:37:38 2000
From: xerxes909 at excite.com (xerxes)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GoF timing...
Message-ID: <19393667.969939458764.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2220

</lurk mode>

Hello

I'm new to the list and must say that I am thoroughly enjoying reading all
the different theories being put forth about the characters and situations. 

I have a question about the timing during the last tournament event in GoF.
How long does everyone think the last challenge took, and how long was Harry
gone from the Hogwarts grounds in the clutches of Voldy?

I'm just curious as to whether Harry and Cedric were missed at all. Did
Dumbledore get worried at the length of time they were in the maze ? Did he
suspect that Harry had been kidnapped at all? Or was the first inkling that
something was wrong happen when Harry tumbled in out of nowhere with
Cedric's body and the trophy?

And then how long did it take Dumbledore to realize that Harry had been
carted off by the fake Moody? To me it doesn't seem like this whole last bit
of Voldy and then Moody could have taken much longer than half an hour.
Perhaps 3/4 hour. 

Opinions?

judy 

<lurk mode>





***
Press: What do you call that hairstyle?
George Harrison: Arthur
Press: How do you stand in the draft?
John Lennon: About 5'11"





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 03:50:51 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:50:51 -0000
Subject: Time Period in Book 7
In-Reply-To: <39CFCBA8.35CEFDC7@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qp6er+3t7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2221

 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <> 

>JKR: "There will be seven books.  One for each of his years at
> Hogwarts and he'll turn 17 at the start of book 7."

Yes but how old will he be at the end of book 7? There is no way I 
can interpret the above to mean that the end of the last book 
absolutely positively most be on graduation day and not one bit 
later. Why would she wish to impose such a restriction on herself? I 
can't see her forcing a plot line to an unnatural premature ending 
just so last book covers only one year like the previous 6. Obviously 
book 7 being the last will have things about it that are different 
from the other 6. 







From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 03:57:24 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:57:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Period in Book 7
References: <8qp6er+3t7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D01EA4.6A2DF3B1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2222

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

>  Yes but how old will he be at the end of book 7? There is no way I
> can interpret the above to mean that the end of the last book
> absolutely positively most be on graduation day and not one bit
> later. Why would she wish to impose such a restriction on herself? I
> can't see her forcing a plot line to an unnatural premature ending
> just so last book covers only one year like the previous 6.

Why do you consider that any ending, regardless of where it falls in the
timeline of the story, developed with thought and carefully worked toward
according to plan, would be "premature"? She's "restricting" herself, as you
put it, to writing the book series she planned to write, no more. That's
called discipline.

--Amanda




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep 26 05:05:42 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:05:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Period in Book 7
Message-ID: <v02140b18b5f5dec6610c@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2223

> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <>
>
>>JKR: "There will be seven books.  One for each of his years at
>> Hogwarts and he'll turn 17 at the start of book 7."
>
>Yes but how old will he be at the end of book 7? There is no way I
>can interpret the above to mean that the end of the last book
>absolutely positively most be on graduation day and not one bit
>later. Why would she wish to impose such a restriction on herself? I
>can't see her forcing a plot line to an unnatural premature ending
>just so last book covers only one year like the previous 6. Obviously
>book 7 being the last will have things about it that are different
>from the other 6.
>
>
I don't know why it being the last book means it will necessarily
different.  I also don't know why you're so invested in this 19-year-old
figure, it seems only equally as likely or unlikely as any other theory
that has been proposed.  If anything a little less likely, as I don't think
JKR will wish to deviate from her format.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
***********************************************************





From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 04:06:25 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:06:25 -0000
Subject: D/G; mixing stories in Subreality
In-Reply-To: <F1694lcFAcYNpGZl6um000041e3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qp7c1+4pqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2224

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "M.C. Pandora" <mousecarcass at h...> 
wrote:
> Thinking of Ebony's post, regarding Cassandra's Draco and Lori's 
Ginny... 
> While there is enough HP fanfic out there to justify a 'Three 
Broomsticks' 
> in Subreality, the idea of Draco and Ginny meeting at the 
Subreality Cafe is 
> quite intriguing. I'm sure broom closets are easy enough to arrange 
> anywhere. The age difference is a bit worrying, but an older Ginny 
would 
> better match Draco.
> 
> I have some ideas along these lines, it came to me in a flash of 
inspiration 
> last night and didn't let me sleep. D/G cliches in HP fanfic, even 
D/? and 
> G/? are being avidly sought--probably directly to me rather than 
the list.
> 
> All this is assuming I'd have Cassandra and Lori's permission, of 
course.
> 
> (I wouldn't mind seeing Cassandra's Ginny and Draco together, the 
bedroom 
> scene in 'Draco Sinister' was welcome humour after the nightmare.)
> 
> shorah,
> MC

> 
Is there that much of an age difference between Ginny and Draco? Just 
a year, I thought. Or do you mean the difference in age between my 
Draco and Lori's Ginny who is...in her twenties? That might be a tad 
scary. My Draco's only sixteen, you know. *grins* He's just a baby!




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 04:13:11 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:13:11 -0000
Subject: GoF timing
In-Reply-To: <19393667.969939458764.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>
Message-ID: <8qp7on+bvij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2225

Judy said: And then how long did it take Dumbledore to realize that 
Harry had been carted off by the fake Moody? To me it doesn't seem 
like this whole last bit of Voldy and then Moody could have taken 
much longer than half an hour. Perhaps 3/4 hour.

Dumbledore realised that Moody was an impostor as soon as he 
(Dumbledore) saw Moody take Harry away. Dumbledore explained to Harry 
something along the lines of : 'I knew he was fake when he took you 
away from the crowds, which were safe' or something like that. The 
time it took for Moody to 'reveal' himself to Harry was probably 
Dumbledore rounding up Snape and McGonagall (as all three of them 
appeared in the Foe-Glass).

Judy, you also pose an interesting question: DID anyone know anything 
was wrong before Harry returned with Cedric's dead body? I don't have 
GoF on hand so I can't check, but I believe that when Harry returned 
there was a definite atmosphere of unsettlement at Hogwarts. People 
knew something had gone wrong, but they didn't realise quite how 
wrong things had gone. Remember when Harry returned with Cedric dead 
people were absolutely shocked, as you would be.

Remember that Sirius had been expecting something like this to 
happen, so although the nature of Harry's kidnap and return was a 
shock to him, the fact that Harry was temporarily kidnapped was not. 
So the moment Harry disappeared Dumbledore (being in contact with 
Sirius) probably would have gotten worried.





From summers.65 at osu.edu  Tue Sep 26 05:48:02 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:48:02 -0500
Subject: OT:  Another British question...
Message-ID: <v02140b1bb5f5e84f9e67@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2226


Can someone tell me how many counties are in England?  I've been trying to
name them all...Middlesex, Kent, York, Hertfordshire, Derbyshire...I know
I'm missing some.  All of those may not even be counties for all I know.
I'm mostly relying on my Jane Austen to guide me.

Thanks,
Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
***********************************************************





From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 04:53:57 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:53:57 -0000
Subject: Time Period in Book 7
In-Reply-To: <v02140b18b5f5dec6610c@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <8qpa55+5okn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2227

> I don't know why it being the last book means it will necessarily
> different. 

Well for one thing he won't be going back to the Durseleys at the end 
of book 7 as he did in the other 6, he won't be tied to rhythms of 
the school year.



 




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 26 06:39:01 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:39:01 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <jjuuss46gtf4pe4rn7s66sap5rjc568vhd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8qpga5+bhop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2228

Sorry again, Monika, but upon a repeated read of your suggestion, I 
must raise another cavil.

If Voldemort is accompanied to Godric's Hollow by a cadre of Death 
Eaters, one of whom retrieves his wand, there is no need for the Gang 
of Five (Bartemius Crouch, Junior, et al) to try to coax information 
on the Dark Lord's whereabouts from Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom.

Consider.  Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce are both killed with 
Voldemort's wand.  Before any of the deep cover Death Eaters knows
for 
certain that a re-embodiment is in the works.  This leaves Peter 
Pettigrew and Professor Quirrel as the only ones who could have 
had the opportunity to return the wand to Voldemort.  I feel we can 
dismiss Quirrel as a candidate by virtue of the face that Quirrel's 
death in Volume One leaves Voldemort in the same fix he found himself 
in in 1981. i.e., bodiless and unable to hold a wand.  So, we examine 
Peter Pettigrew's opportunities.

We know that an Animagus transforms not only his/her body, but also 
his personal effects when making the switch to and from human form.  
Otherwise, we are faced with the somewhat disturbing image of Peter 
and Sirius showing up buck nekkid whenever they revert to human form, 
and the no-less-disturbing image of a nude Professor McGonnagal 
chatting with Albus Dumbledore in the wee, small hours of All Saints 
Day in Privet Drive.  Presumably, anything in pockets also makes the 
transition with the Animagus, so a wand is possible, theoretically.  
So Scabbers the Rat could have been carrying Voldemort's wand around 
in his gall bladder or some such place for twelve years, at which
time 
Lupin and Black force him to resume his human form, in which...well, 
I'll be switched.  Peter is entirely wandless in the Shrieking Shack! 
(Else, why did he have to steal Ron's wand to make his bid for
rat-dom 
 once again?)

So we have two plausible candidates for the title of Custodian of the 
Wand.  But both of them need to overcome too many logical
restrictions 
to actually be the custodian.  I suspect that Ms Rowling will have 
thought up the solution to this particular little mystery, and it
will 
turn out to be entirely different from anything we hve seen here.
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Monika Huebner <monika at d...> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:29:59 -0000, jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> 
> >My own belief is that Voldemort does not in fact have his original 
> >wand; in any event I haven't found anything plausible to explain 
how 
> >he could have retained it or retrieved it following his disastrous 
> >visit to Godric's Hollow; nor have I seen anything to cause me to 
> >believe he could have carried it around during the eleven years 
that 
> >he had no body.
> 
> The Priori Incantatem would not have been possible if he hadn't had
> his original wand. The wands would not have connected and the curses
> would not have been regurgitated. Remember how we first learned 
about
> this effect at the Quidditch match after Harry's wand had been used 
by
> Crouch Jr. to conjure the Dark Mark. So why did Voldemort still have
> his original wand? Perhaps he wasn't alone when he killed the 
Potters
> but was accompanied by one (or several) of his Death Eaters. In any
> case, he would not have been able to leave the place on his own 
after
> the AK curse he had used on Harry backfired at him. Someone must 
have
> been there to help him and this someone probably also took his wand
> and hid it in a safe place for later use.
> 
> Monika
> 
> 
> --
> Books and Movies
> http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 26 12:02:57 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:02:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Period in Book 7
References: <8qp6er+3t7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D09070.63CDDCBE@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2229

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <>
>
> >JKR: "There will be seven books.  One for each of his years at
> > Hogwarts and he'll turn 17 at the start of book 7."
>
> Eggplant said: <<<Yes but how old will he be at the end of book 7?
> There is no way I can interpret the above to mean that the end of the
> last book absolutely positively most be on graduation day and not one
> bit
> later.>>>

Let's take it one phrase at a time.  7 books -- surely we're agreed on
that point.  Each book will cover "one of his years at Hogwarts."
That's what she has said.  The 7th book will *start* with Harry at age
17.  If his birthday is as we all assume on 31 July 1980, and if the
Hogwarts school year ends in early to mid-June as it does in all the
previous 6 books, then it can be inferred that logically the 7th book
will end while Harry is still 17.

In any case -- I don't know why she would cover close to 2 yrs in the
7th volume, with the last year being entirely away from Hogwarts.  That
just doesn't square with the notion that each book represents one of his
years at Hogwarts.  She has said somewhere else (I can find the cite if
pressed) that Harry will have "come of age" in the wizarding world at
the end of the series.  Is there any evidence that the "adult age" or
"age of consent" in the wizarding world is 19??

You pointed out in a later message that Book 7 will be different in that
Harry won't be returning to the Dursleys.  That is presumably correct.
But, I don't know that there's a shred of evidence that suggests that
she'll extend the 7th book 15 mths beyond the time when it might
normally be thought to conclude.  I could see her extending it out to
include his 18th birthday, perhaps even letting us know what adult Harry
is initially planning to do with his life . . . . but the 19th birthday
seems completely implausible to me based on JKR's public statements of
her intentions for the series.

> <<<Why would she wish to impose such a restriction on herself? I
> can't see her forcing a plot line to an unnatural premature ending
> just so last book covers only one year like the previous 6. Obviously
> book 7 being the last will have things about it that are different
> from the other 6.>>>

I don't know why you think ending it in one month or so prior to his
18th birthday is an "unnatural premature ending."  I agree with Amanda
-- why is any ending that doesn't conclude the way you've worked out
(with Harry dying at age 19 one month after a marriage to Ginny &
leaving a little Harry Jr. on the way) "premature" and "restrictive"???
I definitely do not believe that JKR will end the series one whit before
she intends to -- nor do I think she will give her fans a "premature"
ending.

It seems to me that you're the one with the "restrictive" view of how
the series must end.  His dying at age 17 wouldn't work too well for
your theory about him leaving a pregnant wife (Ginny), would it?  She'd
only be 16, and JKR has certainly said she won't tackle teenage
pregnancy in the HP series.  She's only plausibly an adult if Harry
survives to be 19.

Like Lori, I can't otherwise discern *why* you're so invested in this
theory that Book 7 will cover 23 months (nearly 2 yrs).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 26 12:08:45 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:08:45 -0500
Subject: Multiple topics
References: <969968959.26238@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D091CF.4D31DF10@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2230

>  But it makes sense that the *biggest* thing 
> Dumbledore is sitting on has to do with Harry specifically.  (Ebony)

This is even clearly stated in Book I where Dumbledore tells Harry that
he cannot yet tell harry why Voldemort was after him at Godric's Hollow
in the first place.

No problem with posting that bit meant for me to the list, Ebony; it's
now open that I have three chapters of the Dumbledore-Grindelwald duel
done.  Penny has sent me corrections on
chapters 2 & 3 which reminded me how long it has been since I have
written dialogue.... 
but I am still going to save the title "Wartime" for a Time-of-Voldy
fanfic, rather than use it on this.  I have sent you chaps. 2 & 3 with
Penny's corrections, not incorporated but appended.  (And VM, I still
would like more comments from you if you have time)

On ths subject of the robes.  FWIW, (For what it's worth) one of the
game magazines that was talking about the forthcoming Harry Potter
collectible card game had pics of him on broomstick on cover for 2-3
months )(I'd like them if they didn't make him look like young Clark
Kent with a scar) (and speak of possible comparison for Harry!  Now
THERE is a subject for a compare-and-contrast essay!) the robes are
gaping open showing muggle clothes under.  Ditto, I think, the Christmas ornament.

There ought to be an online map that shows counties in England - try
searching for some of the genealogy websites; I'm almost certain I've
seen one there. 

Has anybody noticed that some posts recently have spelled Voldemort
'Voldamore' or 'Voldemore'?  I suspect those are people who have been
listening to the tapes, not reading the books.  Interesting.

Totally off topic, but for any other WWII history buffs out there, I've
just learned that Saburo Sakai, the top surviving Japanese fighter ace,
died last week of a heart attack, age 84.  A very interesting guy, as
anyone who read his autobioraphy can attest; and he was in the news
again recently, outspoken, telling the Japanese public they had better
learn to accept the fact that they were aggressors, not victims, in WWII.

Staying in the Pacific for a moment:

To my surprise, Olympic coverage has brought out something interesting
related to HP.  If I heard it right, the Aussie word of the day I heard
during the coverage just now was "Bludger", meaning a goldbricker
(that's an old US Army term) - someone who hangs around and appears to
be working but is not pulling his/her weight - a do-nothing.  The
bludgers of course are the balls that run around and try to knock people
off their brooms in Quidditch; it is the function of the players known
as Beaters to intercept these and try to knock them at the opposing
team.  Is there any list member from Oz aboard who can confirim that I
heard this right?

-Brooks



From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 26 12:07:38 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:07:38 -0500
Subject: OT:  Another British question...
References: <v02140b1bb5f5e84f9e67@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <39D0918A.38BE68CD@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2231

Hi --

summers.65 at osu.edu wrote:

> Can someone tell me how many counties are in England?  I've been
> trying to name them all...Middlesex, Kent, York, Hertfordshire,
> Derbyshire...I know I'm missing some.  All of those may not even be
> counties for all I know.  I'm mostly relying on my Jane Austen to
> guide me.

There are quite a few -- I'm going to the genealogy library this morning
& can copy them out of a reference book there if you want.  Cornwall,
Devon, Somersetshire, Essex, Nottingham, -- these I know off the top of
my head.  I'm happy to copy them down & email them later today unless
some Brit can name them off the top of his/her head before I leave.  <g>

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 26 12:59:43 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:59:43 -0500
Subject: England Counties for Lori
Message-ID: <39D09DBE.A91503AF@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2232

Hi --

Just realized I have a British Genealogy sourcebook on my bookshelf --
duh!

Bedfordshire
Berkshire
Buckinghamshire
Cambridgeshire
Cheshire
Cornwall
Cumbria
Derbyshire
Devon
Dorset
Durham
Essex
Gloucestershire
Hampshire
Hereford
Hertfordshire
Kent
Lancashire
Leicestershire
Lincolnshire
London
Manchester
Merseyside
Midlands, West (hard to tell if this is a county or just an archives)
Norfolk
Northhamptonshire
Northumberland
Nottinghamshire
Oxfordshire
Rutland
Shropshire
Somerset
Staffordshire
Suffolk
Surrey
Sussex
Warwickshire
Wiltshire
Worcestershire
Yorkshire

Hope that helps Lori (I know you have no browser for visiting genealogy
websites) --

Penny





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Sep 26 13:03:23 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 06:03:23 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A pet peeve about Sirius-like men in literature  (was: Should Harry Potter die?)
Message-ID: <20000926130323.22102.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2233

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From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 14:07:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:07:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
References: <8qpga5+bhop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D0AD88.E03D369F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2234

jazzman4 at earthlink.net wrote:

> So Scabbers the Rat could have been carrying Voldemort's wand around
> in his gall bladder or some such place for twelve years, at which
> time Lupin and Black force him to resume his human form, in which...well,
> I'll be switched.  Peter is entirely wandless in the Shrieking Shack!

Well, presumably there was time before Peter-as-rat got attached to the
Weasleys, that he could have stashed the wand someplace. In fact, assuming
Peter is the one who held onto the wand, wouldn't he have *had* to stash it?
The curse that did in all the Muggles, that destroyed the street, that
Sirius got blamed for, didn't come out of Voldemort's wand in book 4, so it
must have been Peter's own wand that did it. So he either had two at the
time, and stashed them both prior to becoming a Weasley familiar, or I'm
missing something.

--Amanda





From xerxes909 at excite.com  Tue Sep 26 14:34:34 2000
From: xerxes909 at excite.com (xerxes909 at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:34:34 -0000
Subject: GoF timing
In-Reply-To: <8qp7on+bvij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qqc5q+v18s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2235

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sam  Brown" <find_sam at h...> wrote:
> <<And then how long did it take Dumbledore to realize that 
> Harry had been carted off by the fake Moody? To me it doesn't seem 
> like this whole last bit of Voldy and then Moody could have taken 
> much longer than half an hour. Perhaps 3/4 hour.>>
> 
> Dumbledore realised that Moody was an impostor as soon as he 
> (Dumbledore) saw Moody take Harry away. Dumbledore explained to 
Harry 
> something along the lines of : 'I knew he was fake when he took you 
> away from the crowds, which were safe' or something like that. The 
> time it took for Moody to 'reveal' himself to Harry was probably 
> Dumbledore rounding up Snape and McGonagall (as all three of them 
> appeared in the Foe-Glass).


Hmmmm....I'm not certain I'd agree with that completely. I'll have to 
go back and re-read the section again, but the way I interpreted the 
events was...Harry comes back in a terrible state with Cedric's body. 
Dumbledore gets distracted by Fudge regarding Cedric's body and 
Cedric's parents, but he insists that Harry stay where he is when 
Moody talks about taking him to the hospital wing. Moody then takes 
Harry anyway behind Dumbledore's back. When Dumbledore turns around 
again, he sees Harry and Moody gone...finally realises what must have 
happened...whereupon he quickly grabs Snape and McGonagall to assist 
him and makes his way back to the castle after Harry. Therefore he 
only knows what's happening AFTER Harry and Moody have gone missing.



> 
> Judy, you also pose an interesting question: DID anyone know 
anything 
> was wrong before Harry returned with Cedric's dead body? I don't 
have 
> GoF on hand so I can't check, but I believe that when Harry 
returned 
> there was a definite atmosphere of unsettlement at Hogwarts. 


There was unsettlement, but was it happening prior to Harry's 
arrival, or _due to_ Harry's arrival?


> People 
> knew something had gone wrong, but they didn't realise quite how 
> wrong things had gone. Remember when Harry returned with Cedric 
dead 
> people were absolutely shocked, as you would be.
> 
> Remember that Sirius had been expecting something like this to 
> happen, so although the nature of Harry's kidnap and return was a 
> shock to him, the fact that Harry was temporarily kidnapped was 
not. 
> So the moment Harry disappeared Dumbledore (being in contact with 
> Sirius) probably would have gotten worried.


I agree that both Sirius and Dumbledore had been expecting something 
to happen, but I'm still not certain as to whether Harry was known to 
be missing at that point or not. The whole Voldy incident couldn't 
have taken longer than 20-30 minutes. 

Now signals had been sent up a couple of times prior to that for 
assistance IIRC. Perhaps that had alerted Dumbledore?

judy











From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Sep 26 14:31:39 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:31:39 -0400
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong
Message-ID: <200009261440.e8QEejo22054@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2236

Okay, so maybe that subject line is a little over the top but I have been 
sitting on some comments and they must come out!

First off, let me say that I am definitely an H/R shipper although I do enjoy 
well-written H/H.  The thing that really really annoys me though is that most 
people who write H/H fiction seem completely unwilling to deal with the Ron 
issue at all.  The fact of the matter is, the obvious romantic tension in the 
canon is between Hermione and Ron.  Several people, particularly Penny, have 
made very good cases for the subtext suggesting that Hermione may have 
feelings for Harry.  Okay, that I can buy.  BUT, there is absolutely no 
evidence that Harry may have feelings for Hermione.  After all, he even says 
something like "He liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't Ron."  AND 
think about the two major fights we have seen among the Trio; in Book 4, when 
Harry and Ron are fighting, we KNOW that Harry misses Ron.  Their argument is 
at the forefront of everything that happens. In Book 3, when Ron and Harry 
stop speaking to Hermione for what, 4 months?, Hermione just kind of fades 
into the background.  You don't get the feeling that Harry is all that 
bothered by not being on speaking terms with Hermione.  Ron may be a different 
story, but we don't know that.  And Hermione is clearly upset that they are 
not speaking to her.

The point of this seemingly off-topic ramble is that Harry cares more about 
Ron than he does about Hermione.  (After all, Ron was "the thing he would miss 
the most")  I am not suggesting any sort of homosexual pairing here (though 
who knows?  that really would be unexpected for JKR!)  but what I am saying is 
that so many people who seem determined to match up Harry and Hermione are 
ignoring something fundamental about Harry.  Regardless of whether or not he 
had any feelings for Hermione (and the signs indicate he does not), Harry 
would simply NOT go after her knowing that Ron liked her (and the scene after 
the Yule Ball made it pretty clear that Harry is aware of Ron's feelings even 
if Ron is not).   Ron's friendship is simply too important to him.  And the 
other thing is: Hermione KNOWS this.  So even if she did have feelings for 
Harry, she would know better than to ever let them show, because she is smart 
enough to realize how important Ron's friendship is to Harry.  And, too, aside 
from the fact that I think there is ample evidence that Hermione does indeed 
have feelings for Ron, I don't think she would do that to him either.  Even if 
she didn't LOVE him, he's still her friend and she would realize how much her 
dating Harry would affect him.  She's too compassionate not to realize that.  
And I think that her comments to Harry when he and Ron were fighting show that 
she has thought about Ron's feelings quite a bit.

That's the thing that annoys me: if I read one more H/H fanfic where Ron says 
some variation of "I knew you guys always liked each other, I'm so happy for 
you, I'm glad I got over that little crush in our fourth year", I am going to 
scream!  We all know that even if Ron did get over his crush, he would still 
be jealous of anyone else who went out with Hermione.  And even if he and 
Hermione dated and then broke up, I don't see him being the kind of guy who 
would let go really easily.  And if Harry were the one who came next...well, 
let's just say that defecting-to-the-dark-side theory would come in about 
here.

I think that PoU is one of the very few H/H romances I have read that even 
deals with Ron's feelings at all, and I think the way Lori handles it is very 
plausible.  Even if Ron did die, it would still take both Harry and Hermione, 
but especially Harry, a long time to deal with that baggage.  This 
lack-of-dealing-with-Ron was my one complaint about "Draco Dormiens" too, but 
from the hints she has dropped in the early chapters of "Draco Sinister", it 
looks like Cassandra Claire will deal with this somehow.


Anyway, enough ranting for now.  I am just tired of Ron getting shunted aside.


Whew, I feel better now!

Kathy




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Sep 26 14:57:17 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 07:57:17 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H and why it's just wrong
Message-ID: <20000926145717.24087.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2237

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From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 26 16:01:49 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:01:49 -0000
Subject: Tim Powers, was A pet peeve 
In-Reply-To: <20000926130323.22102.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8qqh9d+ocuk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2238

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> On Mon, 25 September 2000, Peg Kerr wrote:
> 
> > Ahem.  Actually, the writer I can think of who does this the MOST 
is a man, Tim Powers.  Ever read _Dinner at Deviant's Palace_, or 
_Last Call_, or _Anubis Gates_ or _Stress of Her Regard_?  I used to 
tease...[snip]

It is a common observation of Powers as to how the lead male suffers 
physically - even in his first published novel, one of the old Lancer 
books - he ends the book crippled for life, I think.  

_Anubis Gates_, however,has to take the cake as one of the most 
incredibly tangled plots (that all makes sense in the end) ever 
written.  Of course, when your plot involves several times jumps it
is easy to get tangled.....

And I am still intrigued by his suggestion (which of course none of 
the regular 17th century characters get), in the one with the
Fountain of Youth and Blackbeard, that magic doesn't work well on
cold iron because iron is the last thing stars make!  Whoa.....

-Brooks




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Sep 26 16:23:01 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:23:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF timing
In-Reply-To: <8qqc5q+v18s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEPACCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2239

Regarding the Triwizard Tournament -- I am still bothered by the nature of
the 2nd and 3rd tasks in relation to the watching crowds.  It hardly seems
exciting that the entire school would come out to the stands in Task 2,
merely to stare at the lake for an hour waiting for someone to emerge, not
knowing what, if anything, was happening below the surface.  Same thing for
Task 3... I just can't see the excitement of staring at a bunch of bushes
for an hour waiting to see who comes out at the end.  If I was cheering for
someone in a tournament, I'd want to SEE them performing the tasks, as
everyone got to do in Task 1 with the dragons.  Otherwise, it's like waiting
outside the Olympic stadiums to see which athletes come out with the medals,
without knowing how or why they won.

How wonderful it would have been, on the other hand, for the entire school
to witness the final scenes before Harry and Cedric decided to share the
Triwizard Cup.  Even if they couldn't HEAR what was being said, they would
have been able to figure out what was going on.  The tension in the crowd
would have been unbearable, waiting to see who won.  Then, of course, the
pandemonium that would have ensued when both champions vanished from the
spot.





From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 16:19:52 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:19:52 -0000
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong
In-Reply-To: <200009261440.e8QEejo22054@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <8qqib8+s9r7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2240

That's the thing that annoys me: if I read one more H/H fanfic where 
Ron says  some variation of "I knew you guys always liked each other, 
I'm so happy for  you, I'm glad I got over that little crush in our 
fourth year", I am going to   scream!  We all know that even if Ron 
did get over his crush, he would still   be jealous of anyone else
who 
went out with Hermione.  And even if he and   Hermione dated and then 
broke up, I don't see him being the kind of guy who 
  would let go really easily.  And if Harry were the one who came 
next...well,  let's just say that defecting-to-the-dark-side theory 
would come in about  here.

              I think that PoU is one of the very few H/H romances I 
have read that even  deals with Ron's feelings at all, and I think
the 
way Lori handles it is very  plausible.  Even if Ron did die, it
would 
still take both Harry and Hermione,    but especially Harry, a long 
time to deal with that baggage.  This  lack-of-dealing-with-Ron was
my 
one complaint about "Draco Dormiens" too, but   from the hints she
has 
dropped in the early chapters of "Draco Sinister", it looks like 
Cassandra Claire will deal with this somehow.

Ah, you picked up on that? *grins* Nobody else did...I agree that Ron 
often gets shunted aside in fanfic by people racing to pair up Harry 
and Hermione; I'm certainly guilty of that, too. (Although my
original 
intention was to pair up Hermione and Draco, but that just didn't
work 
out.) I think it can work, however, without having to make Ron either 
dead or terminally evil as a result. The main problem with a Harry/
Hermione relationship vis-a-vis Ron, in my opinion (and it's just my 
opinion) is not his jealousy over Hermione per se, but his resentment 
over being suddenly a third wheel. He already has issues about being 
in Harry's shadow, as we all know, and being part of this very strong 
trio of friends is a large part of his identity. If he felt shut out 
by Harry and Hermione, I can certainly see that being the end of
their 
joint friendship. IMHO,  what Ron needs is something that will make 
him stand out, as Harry's standout Quidditch skills and general fame 
do for him, and Hermione intelligence does for her. If Ron had an 
arena in which he could excel, I think the whole Harry/Hermione
pairup 
(which I don't think will happen in the books, anyway) would be less 
of a threat to him. I suppose he might still be jealous, but not 
jealous enough to turn to the Dark Side or jump off Gryffindor Tower. 
(Heck, I can't even remember the name of the guy I had a crush on
when 
I was fourteen. These things do pass quickly.)





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 16:44:44 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:44:44 -0000
Subject: Pair or Unpair (Re: H/H and why it's just wrong)
In-Reply-To: <20000926145717.24087.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8qqjps+7lgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2241

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, voicelady at m... wrote:
> Along the same lines, I'm finding it amusing that we even feel the 
need to pair up people at all. Reading Paradigm of Uncertainty, I'm 
enjoying it greatly, but I think that's because they are older and 
more mature, but the whole speculation about pairings in the canon, 
well, it's really rather unnecessary, isn't it?  Or is it just me?
> 
> (Now let's see if I just opened a whole new can of worms. <G>)
> 
> voicelady - who wasn't even looking and didn't find her soulmate 
until she was in her 30's.

That's very interesting...As of Book 4 they are about 14-15 years 
old. I remember having crushes at that age but no "heavy-duty" type 
dating. And 
the crushes were typically on guys who were a year or two older than 
on the ones who were in my own peer group.  

But in terms of dating in the Harry Potter books, Percy had a 
girlfriend when he was in his 6th year  during CoS. Fred and George 
don't seem to be involved in any romantic relationships (too busy 
developing joke wands and joke candy I guess). Although in GoF, Snape 
did 
give demerits to a couple during his Yule Ball rose bush rampage. 
None of Harry's peers are dating anyone. So maybe dating hasn't in 
Harry's peer group hasn't reared its head? BTW, when I say "dating" I 
mean relationship-type dating, not the take-me-to-the-dance-so-I-
don't-have-to go-stag type dating. ;-)

Maybe Rowling will address dating in the next book or two. It's bound 
to happen since relationships are a part of "coming of age".

--Milz *prodding the worms out of the can*




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 16:55:47 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:55:47 -0000
Subject: And now for something really depressing 
In-Reply-To: <39CF445E.3AC7394F@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qqkej+thnb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2242

 
>> To Harry Hermione is a close friend and brilliant colleague but 
any romantic interest would bring Harry into  serious conflict with 
Ron, and I don't see that happening.
 
> Yes, it would bring him into conflict with Ron.  Ron might well be
> motivated to betray Harry at some point because of this  . . . .


Gee, and people say my scenario for the last book is too dark! I find 
the idea of Ron betraying Harry far more depressing than our hero 
going out in a blaze of glory at the end of book 7. 




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 26 17:40:26 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:40:26 -0000
Subject: And now for something really depressing
In-Reply-To: <8qqkej+thnb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qqn2a+bnqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2243

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
>  
> >> To Harry Hermione is a close friend and brilliant colleague but 
> any romantic interest would bring Harry into  serious conflict with 
> Ron, and I don't see that happening.
>  
> > Yes, it would bring him into conflict with Ron.  Ron might well be
> > motivated to betray Harry at some point because of this  . . . .
> 
> 
> Gee, and people say my scenario for the last book is too dark! I 
find 
> the idea of Ron betraying Harry far more depressing than our hero 
> going out in a blaze of glory at the end of book 7.

Oh I'm almost expecting someone close to Harry betraying him. It's a 
very old theme...very "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" ;-) But I think 
Ron would be the too obvious choice. In the two books, we've seen Ron 
as the focus of inter-trio discontent...first it was Ron vs.
Hermione, 
then it was Ron vs. Harry and Ron vs. Hermione again. It'll be too 
obvious if Ron betrays Harry..not much of a surprize, IMO.




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue Sep 26 18:02:42 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:02:42 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <8qo6qn+o7gn@eGroups.com>
References: <jjuuss46gtf4pe4rn7s66sap5rjc568vhd@4ax.com> <8qo6qn+o7gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <iph1tssrnh72rtdha49mothpe2v5aeeqib@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2244

On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:51:03 -0000, jazzman4 at earthlink.net wrote:

>Sorry Monika, I ain't buyin' that one yet.  My thesis is that Harry's 
>innate power caused an effect that was largely indistinguishable from 
>Priori Incantatem.
>
>Dumbledore's been wrong before, you know.

Yes, but this was a rare but known effect. Sirius knew about it, too.
And Ollivander told Harry that Fawkes had only given two feathers, so
Voldemort must have had his original wand or the two wands would not
have connected. 

I hope that Rowling will come up with a satisfying solution for this
problem, but for now I can't buy your theory, sorry.

Monika



--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue Sep 26 18:02:43 2000
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:02:43 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
In-Reply-To: <8qpga5+bhop@eGroups.com>
References: <jjuuss46gtf4pe4rn7s66sap5rjc568vhd@4ax.com> <8qpga5+bhop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <i7n1tsovt4djo0dtbpshrsfiqdugge5is0@4ax.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2245

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:39:01 -0000, jazzman4 at earthlink.net wrote:

>This leaves Peter 
>Pettigrew and Professor Quirrel as the only ones who could have 
>had the opportunity to return the wand to Voldemort.

I assume it was Pettigrew himself. Perhaps he was with Voldemort the
night the Potters died, and perhaps there weren't other Death Eaters
present.

>We know that an Animagus transforms not only his/her body, but also 
>his personal effects when making the switch to and from human form.  

I have always wondered how they do this. ;) 

>So Scabbers the Rat could have been carrying Voldemort's wand around 
>in his gall bladder or some such place for twelve years, 

I don't think so. If it was him who retrieved Voldemort's wand, he
must have hidden it somewhere in a safe place. As for his own wand,
I'm sure he lost it when he chose to become a rat. He did not have a
wand in the Shrieking Shack (as you have pointed out), and he hasn't
got one _now_, since he committed all his crimes with Voldemort's
wand.

>(Else, why did he have to steal Ron's wand to make his bid for
>rat-dom 
> once again?)

You don't need a wand for the Animagus transformation. We see Sirius
do it all the time, and he definitely does not have a wand. He took
Ron's wand in the Shrieking Shack to disarm Harry, and later he used
Snape's wand to force Pettigrew to show himself. The Animagus
transformation is the only magic we see him do since, because he has
_no_ wand.

>I suspect that Ms Rowling will have 
>thought up the solution to this particular little mystery, and it
>will 
>turn out to be entirely different from anything we hve seen here.

I'm with you here, and I hope her solution will be better than
anything that has been said so far. ;)

Monika


--
Books and Movies
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html



From HPforGrownups at egroups.com  Tue Sep 26 18:06:18 2000
From: HPforGrownups at egroups.com (HPforGrownups at egroups.com)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 18:06:18 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <969991578.2932@egroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2246


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Art/1goons.jpg 
  Uploaded by : dogspoon at yahoo.com 
  Description : Slytherin Goons 

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/HPforGrownups/Fan+Art/1goons%2Ejpg 

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html


Regards,

dogspoon at yahoo.com
 






From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 18:06:14 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:06:14 -0000
Subject: various small HP factoids
Message-ID: <8qqoim+pfc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2247

1.  Has anyone else who lives in the DC area noticed that for the 
last few weeks, the Harry Potter books have mysteriously disappeared 
from the Washington Post Book World Best Seller list?  They have not, 
as far as I can see, started a separate childrens list the way the NY 
Times did - the books are simply gone.  Since it is unlikely that 
people in the DC area have suddently stopped buying HP books, 
something odd seems to be going on.

2.  There have been a number of Harry Potter-related references in 
various comics lately.  The only really funny one that I have seen 
lately is the one in this weeks New Yorker - a little girl is sitting 
next to a bed containing her bleary-eyed and half-asleep parents.  
She is reading out loud from GoF: *Dumbledores eyes twinkled...*

3.  On a recent plane trip to the West Coast, someone in the row 
behind me AND someone in the row in front of me were reading HP 
books.  Both were adults.  (We are everywhere!)

-- Joywitch




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Tue Sep 26 18:11:26 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 11:11:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
Message-ID: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2248

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000926/eecf782d/attachment.ksh>

From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 26 19:01:47 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:01:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Riddle
References: <8qnmma+7vs6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c027ec$ded5e9e0$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2249


> Riddle. Tom Riddle senior had 18 years to start a new family before
> his son killed him. It also explains why Petunia is so unpleasant,
> she was unlucky enough to inherit the nasty gene from her father,
> Lilly did not.

Bear in mind both Lily and Petunia need to be relatively young in 1980 as
they both had kids then.  They couldn't have been born much before 1945
meaning if they were Tom Riddle Sr.'s kids, they'd have been rendered
fatherless quite young.  Petunia's spoken of both parents approving of Lily,
so that evidently wasn't the case.

I don't think you should be stating this as fact just yet...

Jinx




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 19:18:56 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:18:56 -0000
Subject: Quick fanfic recommendation
Message-ID: <8qqsr0+77rj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2250

This one should please both those who like funny fluff and those who 
like angsty stories.  WARNING - the story is not for anyone who is 
fundamentally opposed to slash (homosexual relationships between 
characters, in this case Remus and Sirius) nor for those who don't 
like rolling around laughing.  

It's called 'Boy's Own Camping Adventure' and is by GrimSlasher, and 
I loved it.  Well written and well executed and generally brilliant.  
As always, it can be found at: http://www.fanfiction.net

Happy reading!  Oh, and if you liked that one you'll probably like 'A 
Marriage of True Minds?' by Quill, who should be added to the 'good 
author' list.  That's not slash, but it is a little bit 'adult.'  
Quill's 'A Tale of Two Letters' is even better and funnier.  Both are 
MWPP and excellent.  

-Blaise.    

    




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 19:18:50 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:18:50 EDT
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20=20Digest#104=20/Triwizard=20Tourney?=
Message-ID: <64.6da0d5e.2702509a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2251

Plenty of spoilers below for GOF:
 Re: Judy's question:
>I have a question about the timing during the last tournament event in
>GoF.
>How long does everyone think the last challenge took, and how long was
>Harry
>gone from the Hogwarts grounds in the clutches of Voldy?
>
I have a different wondering: In each challenge of the TriWiz tournament, 
spectators trouped into stands to watch the challenges. The first challenge, 
everyone could see the action.  The second & third ??? The second one took 
place under water, and the third in the maze. No mention was made of play by 
play Screens, commentators or magical glasses. Did the spectators just watch 
the clock, read Witch Weekly or play wizard chess until the end of the hour? 
Seems a more interesting spectator sport, albeit 4 ring circus, to watch the 
champions deal with the challenges. Heck, even muggles have cameras along 
obstacle and game courses. If folks were watching magically, they would see 
what Harry did with the merfolk & captives in challenge 2, and in challenge 
3, Krum's seeming betrayal, Harry and Cedric's disappearance, and perhaps 
even Crouch/Moody's negating some of Harry's obstacles. 

Now perhaps spectators could view the events (only logical in my estimation). 
In challenge # 2, they could see Harry's actions, but not hear or understand 
what was said in the interactions with the merfolk (tho the pantomine seems 
pretty straightforward to me).  Hence the consultation with the merfolk 
Chieftess at the end of the challenge. In challenge #3, Harry's and Cedric's 
disappearance WAS noted - and took place in real time - the judges were 
exploring the parameters around the disappearance, and perhaps how not to 
panic the crowd. When Harry, cup, and CD's body appeared, the judges were on 
the alert and came running. Crouch camoflaged himself during the 
challenge(he'd used Harry's
cloak before, or perhaps some mass Confundus charm while he sabotaged the 
challenges. Dumbledore mentioned in book one that there are more ways to 
become invisible than using a cloak. Actually what he said was that HE didn't 
need a cloak to become invisible, I'm extrapolating that there are other ways 
to achieve invisibility besides personal high wizardry talent)....Again, 
anyone else have ideas or comments?
Aylihael
:::sigh:::Seen on button: "Sleep is for wimps. Health, happy, well-rested 
wimps, but wimps none the less"



From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 26 19:23:03 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:23:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
References: <8qothd+dqep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c027ef$e3081a80$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2252


> Incredibly short post coming....
>
> Then wouldn't Harry of seen Grandaddy V. in the Mirror of Erised?

No, b/c the Mirror only shows what you desire.  Harry has never at any time
desired to be related to Voldemort.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 26 19:26:13 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:26:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' Father - was (Re: Lily and Petunia Riddle)
References: <8qom5h+du6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c027ef$e457cc00$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2253


> Hey - here's an interesting theory that just occured to me:
>
> What if Tom Riddle (Voldy) is the father of James Potter?
>
>  - wait, this couldn't happen, one might argue, and point out the
> dates and ages
>  - but - one thing we must remember is something that was said in
> PoA, and I am paraphrasing:  many witches and wizards have messed up
> their lives with time manipulation.  Perhaps Tom Riddle was one of
> them!

Time manipulation need have nothing to do with it.  Tom Riddle Jr. (ie.
Voldemort) is perfectly aged to be the father of James, at least.  However,
he would have to have been conceived in the late 40's, before Voldy
underwent all his changes.  Plus Voldy couldn't have known about James, or
he'd have taunted Harry with it before now.

Jinx




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 26 19:18:44 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:18:44 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
References: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <007a01c027ee$97c147a0$fd66073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2254


----- Original Message -----
From: <voicelady at mymailstation.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids


> On Tue, 26 September 2000, "Joywitch " wrote:
>
> > 3.  On a recent plane trip to the West Coast, someone in the row behind
me AND someone in the row in front of me were reading HP books.  Both were
adults.  (We are everywhere!)
>
> Riding home on the subway yesterday, I noticed seven different people
reading the books - 4 people had the hardbacks (all four were represented),
1 had the paperback of Sorcerer's Stone and 2 had the recent paperback of
Chamber of Secrets.  And yes, they were all adults.  I always take the time
to actively look now!

Just to add my two knuts, when I was at the Sanctuary last week, reclining
decadently while I re-read GoF, along one wall of the lounge there was a
full house of HP readers...

Alix




From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 26 19:28:06 2000
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam Scruton)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:28:06 -0000
Subject: OT:  Another British question...
In-Reply-To: <v02140b1bb5f5e84f9e67@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <8qqtc6+gf41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2255

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, summers.65 at o... wrote:
> 
> Can someone tell me how many counties are in England?  I've been 
trying to
> name them all...Middlesex, Kent, York, Hertfordshire, 
Derbyshire...I know
> I'm missing some.  

And probably gained one or two that don't exist any more - if you 
mean 'traditional' counties you are going to have to specify 
when, 'cos it has changed a few times since Jane Austen was around.


http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~stogyman/gk1/files/county.html

tells you what happened in 1974 and we'd just about got used to that 
when 

http://www.local.doe.gov.uk/struct/reorg.htm#unitary

tells you a bit about what has happened over the past few years.  
Scotland has been equally unfortunate with counties coming and going 
and I can't keep up with that either.  

'Tis a favourite occupation of British governments to reorganise and 
rename counties every 20 - 25 years.   (Sometimes they may even 
decide to drown one - Rutland became Empingham Reservoir in the 
seventies but was eventually renamed Rutland Water.)  At one time I 
believe Wales was supposed to hand over a county to England every 100 
years but I think that stopped when Monmouth was supposed to be 
handed over and never actually was. 

There, aren't you glad you asked?

Pam





From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 26 19:29:43 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:29:43 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2256

And Vicki M. was the final push to get me to buy and read them, and 
now another friend has finished my GoF, and wants to borrow it back 
again as soon as my cubemate at work finishes it.... the cubemate
just started it at lunch.  If HP is a disease, we're all vectors!

Funny - we had a smoke alert/fire team response at our cafeteria this 
morning, and it was the employee appreciation free lunch day - sure 
enough, the burgers were perhaps a bit TOO well done.....

I think, as one of the people who originally posted the "What
happened to Voldy's wand?"  question,  also I am now leaning towards
a theory that Voldy's wand disappeared with him when he was 
discorporated in the attempt to kill Baby Harry.  And when Wormtail 
did the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh 
Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.  Here's a
thought - maybe Voldy, in the attack, was blasted into the wherever 
you are - 'between', a Pern reader might say - when you are 
apparating, and you are neither at your departure point or your 
destination.  There he could not physically exist/get out, because of 
all the changes he had undergone - the wand went with him - whatever 
popped back out when Pettigrew re-created a body for him, brought the 
wand with him.  

Kind of like the space where the alternate bodies float, in Alan 
Moore's _Miracleman_ revival comic (I think it was _Marvelman_ in the 
UK).

-Brooks




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 26 19:55:43 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:55:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF timing
References: <8qqc5q+v18s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c027f4$f4509880$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2257


> Now signals had been sent up a couple of times prior to that for
> assistance IIRC. Perhaps that had alerted Dumbledore?

But they were sent up by Fleur and Krum (well, Cedric on Krum's behalf) who
needed rescuing from the maze.  That was expected, that not all the
champions would complete the task.  I doubt that in itself would cause much
concern.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Tue Sep 26 20:03:25 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:03:25 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
References: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <00fb01c027f4$f5b8b400$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2258


> > 3.  On a recent plane trip to the West Coast, someone in the row behind
me AND someone in the row in front of me were reading HP books.  Both were
adults.  (We are everywhere!)
>
> Riding home on the subway yesterday, I noticed seven different people
reading the books - 4 people had the hardbacks (all four were represented),
1 had the paperback of Sorcerer's Stone and 2 had the recent paperback of
Chamber of Secrets.  And yes, they were all adults.  I always take the time
to actively look now!

Over the last few months, travelling to work on the train, I've seen more
people than I can mention reading HP books.  THe overwhelming majority
appear to be the children's Bloomsbury paperbacks (in the case of 1 - 3) and
hardback in the case of GoF.  All were youngish adults, with no kids in
sight.

Jinx




From particle at urbanet.ch  Tue Sep 26 20:11:00 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:11:00 +0200
Subject: James' father, and one eensy pointless HP factoid.
References: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <007a01c027ee$97c147a0$fd66073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <011101c027f5$e4dc7da0$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2259

<Time manipulation need have nothing to do with it.  Tom Riddle Jr. (ie.
Voldemort) is perfectly aged to be the father of James, at least.  However,
he would have to have been conceived in the late 40's, before Voldy
underwent all his changes.  Plus Voldy couldn't have known about James, or
he'd have taunted Harry with it before now.>

I don't believe it ever says *when* Voldie underwent those changes...the
Reign of Terror was from c. 1970 to 1981, as Dumbledore says in chapter one
of PS that the wizard folk have had precious little to celebrate for 11
years. So James could have been conceived as late as 1960 or a bit earlier,
and still be Voldemort's son and Harry's father.

As for the taunting, Voldie could have his reasons for keeping quiet...I
have a little pet theory to explain it all, but I need to go through it to
find any plot holes first (I definitely need too if I want to write a long
and angst-filled fic about it : P).

*My* little HP factoid is that within the past three weeks of school I've
managed to get a hole of GoF for one friend, got another started on PS and
then CoS, brought two friends together so that one could lend the other her
copy of PoA, and chose my seat in English class because it was right next to
the HP decorated part of the classroom. One of my favorite parts of it is
the drawing with the caption 'He Who Must Not Be Named (Voldemort)'. Cheers
me up immensely.

~Firebolt




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 20:21:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:21:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: And now for something really depressing
References: <8qqn2a+bnqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D1054C.E874A20A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2260

milz wrote:

> Oh I'm almost expecting someone close to Harry betraying him. It's a
> very old theme...very "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" ;-) But I think
> Ron would be the too obvious choice. In the two books, we've seen Ron
> as the focus of inter-trio discontent...first it was Ron vs.
> Hermione, then it was Ron vs. Harry and Ron vs. Hermione again. It'll be
> too
> obvious if Ron betrays Harry..not much of a surprize, IMO.

I think whoever betrays Harry will be themselves betrayed---in other words,
they will have genuinely believed, up until a moment of revelation, that
they were helping him. Kind of like Dobby protecting him to death, but with
an epiphany at the end. Preferably before serious damage is done.....

That seems very Voldemort's style, and also relieves JKR of having to turn
such so-far-noble-at-heart characters into petty little people.

--Amanda




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Tue Sep 26 20:34:12 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:34:12 -0000
Subject: Spectator sports (was Re: GoF Timong)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEPACCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qr184+4sbs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2261

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
> "Regarding the Triwizard Tournament -- I am still bothered by the 
nature of the 2nd and 3rd tasks in relation to the watching crowds.  
It hardly seems exciting that the entire school would come out to the 
stands in Task 2, merely to stare at the lake for an hour waiting for 
someone to emerge, not knowing what, if anything, was happening below 
the surface.  Same thing for Task 3... I just can't see the 
excitement of staring at a bunch of bushes for an hour waiting to see 
who comes out at the end.  If I was cheering for someone in a 
tournament, I'd want to SEE them performing the tasks..." He's 

I always assumed (a dangerous pastime, I know) that somehow the Lake 
task was broadcast like a radio show, with someone (Bagman, perhaps) 
magically witnessing the contest and describing it for the rest of 
the crowds. 

"And here comes Harry Potter, the first of the champions to reach the 
merpeople's lair! He gets a sharp rock and frees Ron Weasley and will 
now go to the sur--Wait he's going back!Harry Potter will not leave 
the other hostages behind!  What an unexpected turn of events!" 

That way everyone knows what's going on and enjoys the task.

Now the Third task was held on the quidditch field and (at risk of 
sounding very Hermione-esque) the stands *are* raised in the air so 
that people can see what's going on in the game.  Therefore, they 
should be able to look down into the maze and watch the task, which 
was *very* exciting. And I'm sure Bagman was doing the play by play 
as well.

Trina  




From linsenma at hic.net  Tue Sep 26 20:32:09 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:32:09 -0500
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong
References: <200009261440.e8QEejo22054@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <39D107C9.DA0CE496@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2262

Hi --

Well anyone could have guessed that I'd have to reply to this .  . . <g>

First, let me say that I in general agree with Voicelady.  These
characters are teenagers, and even if you buy the assumption that
wizards & witches marry early in life (and I don't necessarily buy this
theory), they are still young teenagers at this point.  I don't
necessarily think they'll find their lifelong partners at Hogwarts.  I
*do* think that their lifelong partners could be people they know at
Hogwarts (especially if Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain
& it's a relatively small population, etc.).  But, Hogwarts probably
isn't the right *time* for pairing up permanently.  Everyone (even
witches & wizards I should imagine) needs to experience life a little
before they can recognize the "right" one.

Okay so on to Kathy's points --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> First off, let me say that I am definitely an H/R shipper although I
> do enjoy well-written H/H.  The thing that really really annoys me
> though is that most people who write H/H fiction seem completely
> unwilling to deal with the Ron issue at all.

I agree with this!  Before we started ASA, I was tossing around some
ideas with Carole for a H/H post-Hogwarts fanfic where Ron does not
die.  We eventually settled on the ASA idea, but I still think it's
quite possible to come up with a believable plot that involves an adult
H & H romance, even if Ron is alive & not evil.  PoU does set up that
possibility too.  Hermione tells Harry that she doesn't believe her
romance with Ron would have survived long once they entered the adult
world.  So . . . I think it *can* be done.

> The fact of the matter is, the obvious romantic tension in the
> canon is between Hermione and Ron.  Several people, particularly
> Penny, have made very good cases for the subtext suggesting that
> Hermione may have feelings for Harry.  Okay, that I can buy.  BUT,
> there is absolutely no evidence that Harry may have feelings for
> Hermione.

I agree that Harry has no evident romantic interest in Hermione.  As far
as the *canon* is concerned, I subscribe most fully to the Farmer in the
Dell Theory.  Even as strongly H/H as I am, there ain't one shred
o'evidence that Harry has any romantic feelings for Hermione in the
canon -- *at this point.*  But, the "obvious" romantic tension between
Ron & Hermione is, IMO, pretty one-sided from what we know at this
point.

> After all, he even says something like "He liked Hermione very much,
> but she just wasn't Ron."

I think you're ignoring the context of this remark.  He wants a male
companion when he makes this remark; he wants someone to hang out with
who understands Quidditch terminology and horses around rather than
doing their homework.  Hermione is a great friend to him at that stage,
but she can't replace Ron's male companionship for Harry.  He's a 14-yr
old boy who misses his male best friend; he's not writing off a future
romantic partner in Hermione.

> AND think about the two major fights we have seen among the Trio; in
> Book 4, when Harry and Ron are fighting, we KNOW that Harry misses
> Ron.  Their argument is at the forefront of everything that happens.
> In Book 3, when Ron and Harry stop speaking to Hermione for what, 4
> months?, Hermione just kind of fades into the background.  You don't
> get the feeling that Harry is all that bothered by not being on
> speaking terms with Hermione.  Ron may be a different story, but we
> don't know that.  And Hermione is clearly upset that they are not
> speaking to her.

See PoA (US Edition) -- pages 250-251 -- Harry is talking to Hermione
quietly while Ron takes the newly-returned Firebolt up to their dorm
room.  He's clearly concerned that she's overworking herself.  My
impression was that Harry was initially angry at Hermione for telling
McGonagall about the Firebolt, but didn't hold any lasting grudge.  I
rather think he was guilty of inaction more than anything else -- he was
probably willing to make up with Hermione weeks ago but Ron was holding
the grudge and Harry's a 13-yr old boy and he just went along without
giving it much thought.  But, at this point in the narrative, he seems
very ready to make up, but then there was the Scabbers incident.

Then see pages 264-265 of PoA.  It's Harry who breaks away from the
crowd to seek out Hermione.  He clearly wants her to join in and he's
wondering if *Ron* is in a good enough mood to bury the hatchet (this
suggests that it isn't Harry who has any problems with Hermione at all
at this point & that he wants their friendship back).  After Hermione
leaves the room in tears, Harry says "Can't you give her a break?"  This
does *not* sound like someone who's unconcerned about his friendship
with Hermione.  I strongly disagree with your assertion that he's
ambivalent about whether Hermione makes it up with he and Ron.  I think
he cares very much.

And, surely by now (end of GoF), he must realize somewhere within him
that Hermione has been the most steadfastly loyal of all his friends.
She's also displayed her loyalty & friendship with Harry most recently.

> The point of this seemingly off-topic ramble is that Harry cares more
> about Ron than he does about Hermione.  (After all, Ron was "the thing
> he would miss the most")  I am not suggesting any sort of homosexual
> pairing here (though who knows?  that really would be unexpected for
> JKR!)  but what I am saying is that so many people who seem determined
> to match up Harry and Hermione are ignoring something fundamental
> about Harry.  Regardless of whether or not he had any feelings for
> Hermione (and the signs indicate he does not), Harry would simply NOT
> go after her knowing that Ron liked her (and the scene after the Yule
> Ball made it pretty clear that Harry is aware of Ron's feelings even
> if Ron is not).   Ron's friendship is simply too important to him.

Well . . . couple of points here.

1.  Ron being the thing he would miss most: (a) Harry doesn't have a
romantic interest (like Fleur) at that point, other than an awkward
crush on Cho; (b) it served the plot well for Harry's 2 best friends to
be at the bottom of the lake (so that there would be that conflict & so
that all 3 main characters would be in the action); and (c) even if
Dumbledore or the judges (or whoever made the call) decided that
Hermione was the person Harry would miss the most, she was also that
person for Krum.  She couldn't very well have served as the hostage for
2 of the 4 champions.  Maybe the decision was: well, Krum's hostage must
be Hermione and Ron and Hermione are equally important to Harry so
Hermione can be Krum's hostage & Ron can be Harry's.

2.  Homosexual pairing -- well, that'll be hard to sell since both Harry
& Ron have evidenced reasonably strong heterosexual tendencies by now.

3.  I agree that Harry won't "go after" Hermione, knowing that Ron has
his heart set on her.  PoU includes a good take on this conflict for
Harry.  But, there are a number of different ways that this could come
about.  Ron & Hermione might date and break up.  Hermione might refuse
to date Ron (whether because she has her heart set on Harry or because
she has no attraction to Ron) and Ron could simply move on with his
life, remaining friends with Hermione.

All in all though, I don't see much likelihood that Harry will date
Hermione in the canon.  But, just because he doesn't have any romantic
interest in her while he's a teenager doesn't mean he never will.  It
happens *all* the time in real-life.  He's only just begun to notice
girls at all.  He's hardly had time to develop the maturity required to
realize that a life-long partner needs to be more than just a pretty
face.  Once he does acquire that maturity level, he might very well look
at Hermione in a much different light.

> And the other thing is: Hermione KNOWS this.  So even if she did have
> feelings for Harry, she would know better than to ever let them show,
> because she is smart enough to realize how important Ron's friendship
> is to Harry.

I don't understand your point here.  Are you saying if Hermione was
"stupid" enough to show her feelings for Harry, she'd lose his
friendship?  That's a bit strong.  Then again, I don't believe your
theory that Harry values his friendship with Ron more than his
friendship with Hermione.

> And, too, aside from the fact that I think there is ample evidence
> that Hermione does indeed have feelings for Ron, I don't think she
> would do that to him either.  Even if she didn't LOVE him, he's still
> her friend and she would realize how much her dating Harry would
> affect him.  She's too compassionate not to realize that. And I think
> that her comments to Harry when he and Ron were fighting show that she
> has thought about Ron's feelings quite a bit.

Haven't you ever heard "All's fair in love & war"?  Seriously . . . .
denying one's romantic feelings for some higher purpose makes for good
fiction sometimes, but it's pretty darn hard to do in real-life.  JKR
has shown a fairly strong interest in keeping things of this nature
"true to life."  And, in real life, these types of jealousies & romantic
entanglements occur with some regularity.

> That's the thing that annoys me: if I read one more H/H fanfic where
> Ron says some variation of "I knew you guys always liked each other,
> I'm so happy for you, I'm glad I got over that little crush in our
> fourth year", I am going to scream!  We all know that even if Ron did
> get over his crush, he would still be jealous of anyone else who went
> out with Hermione.

Why???????  Are you jealous of the current dating
partner/spouse/romantic interest of every person you've ever had a crush
on or dated?  People do get over lost loves.  They don't always retain
the friendship with that person, but when they do retain the friendship,
it's generally because they're able to put their past romantic interest
& subsequent break-up, problems, jealousies, etc. aside.

I'm very happy for some of my former romantic interests . . . . and
there's not even a hint of jealous feeling on my part when I see them
happy with another person.

> And even if he and Hermione dated and then broke up, I don't see him
> being the kind of guy who would let go really easily.

What if *Ron* was the one who did the breaking off?

> I think that PoU is one of the very few H/H romances I have read that
> even deals with Ron's feelings at all, and I think the way Lori
> handles it is very plausible.  Even if Ron did die, it would still
> take both Harry and Hermione, but especially Harry, a long time to
> deal with that baggage.

I agree . . . *if* Hermione & Ron do date & then break up (or if he
dies), it would take awhile for both Harry & Hermione to get over it.
If they don't date in the canon, I don't imagine it will be because Ron
is pining away over Hermione so . . . there wouldn't be any baggage
necessarily under all scenarios.

> Anyway, enough ranting for now.  I am just tired of Ron getting
> shunted aside.

I do think it could be an interesting challenge for a fanfic writer to
come up with a storyline that does appropriately handle Ron's feelings
and leaves him alive.

But, don't forget, I have lots of arguments why I think Ron would be
most "shunted aside" if he did date Hermione.  I think he'd tire pretty
darn quickly of being in her shadow.  I think he should be given the
chance to shine, particularly in his romantic relationship.  I just
don't see that happening with Hermione though.  She's just not the type
to step back into the background.  I completely agree 100% with
Cassandra's post on this particular topic.

BTW, I can't help but wonder why people who are anti H/H always say that
H/H is just "wrong."  That turn of a phrase is used pretty repeatedly by
the anti-H/H types, and it always raises weird connotations in my mind
(like there's some sort of *taboo* against H/H).

Penny
(who's spent entirely too much time with this!)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 20:46:04 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:46:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
References: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2263

Brooks R wrote:

> And when Wormtail
> did the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh
> Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.

Do you mean the spell to make him the little baby-size gross thing that
drank venom, or the spell that brought him back? Because the wand was around
before the re-raising, because it killed Frank Bryce, the Muggle caretaker
of Riddle House.

And in scanning the end of book 4 to make sure it was a spell performed by
Wormtail that got the first icky little body, I saw that Voldemort says the
protection Lily gave Harry in defending him was "unwitting":

<begin quote, Voldemort is speaking>
His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him
with a protection I admit I had not forseen . . . I could not touch the
boy...
<slight snip>
his mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice . . . This is old
magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . . .
<end quote>

This seems to undermine our theories that Lily worked up some sort of charm,
doesn't it? If what she did was not a conscious act on her part, but is
recognized for what it was (whatever it was) by both Voldemort and
Dumbledore, maybe we're back to the love/blood kin thing.

And *somewhere* in book 4 is a mention of why Dumbledore keeps sending Harry
back to the Dursleys--some sort of "do you know how well protected he is
there" or something, that I dimly remember mentions old magic too---I
couldn't find it on a quick scan, anyone know what I'm talking about?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 20:48:13 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:48:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's Readin', was Factoids
References: <20000926181126.27588.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <00fb01c027f4$f5b8b400$4a8e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <39D10B8D.BBC9944B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2264

I have actually seen a child reading book 4, in the dentist's office waiting
room. He and his dad were discussing dementors; he was about 100 pages in. He
was about 11.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 20:53:35 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:53:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
References: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com> <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D10CCF.F6528FE8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2265

AAAAAGGH! I'm so sorry! Apologies to the list, I got all caught up in looking
for something in the book and not finding it and I completely forgot the spoiler
warning! Please nobody come get me! Sorry, sorry.

--Amanda











Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Brooks R wrote:
>
> > And when Wormtail
> > did the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh
> > Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.
>
> Do you mean the spell to make him the little baby-size gross thing that
> drank venom, or the spell that brought him back? Because the wand was around
> before the re-raising, because it killed Frank Bryce, the Muggle caretaker
> of Riddle House.
>
> And in scanning the end of book 4 to make sure it was a spell performed by
> Wormtail that got the first icky little body, I saw that Voldemort says the
> protection Lily gave Harry in defending him was "unwitting":
>
> <begin quote, Voldemort is speaking>
> His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him
> with a protection I admit I had not forseen . . . I could not touch the
> boy...
> <slight snip>
> his mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice . . . This is old
> magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . . .
> <end quote>
>
> This seems to undermine our theories that Lily worked up some sort of charm,
> doesn't it? If what she did was not a conscious act on her part, but is
> recognized for what it was (whatever it was) by both Voldemort and
> Dumbledore, maybe we're back to the love/blood kin thing.
>
> And *somewhere* in book 4 is a mention of why Dumbledore keeps sending Harry
> back to the Dursleys--some sort of "do you know how well protected he is
> there" or something, that I dimly remember mentions old magic too---I
> couldn't find it on a quick scan, anyone know what I'm talking about?
>
> --Amanda
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep 26 21:04:50 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:04:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Digest#104 /Triwizard Tourney
References: <64.6da0d5e.2702509a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39D10F72.F9D3CB27@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2266

SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:

> Plenty of spoilers below for GOF:

SHE remembers. Sorry again. And yes, look out below!







> The second & third ??? The second one took
> place under water, and the third in the maze. No mention was made of play by
> play Screens, commentators or magical glasses. Did the spectators just watch
> the clock, read Witch Weekly or play wizard chess until the end of the hour?

I sort of figured, on the basis of absolutely nothing, that during the wait the
audience was given some detailed explanation of what the task being undertaken
was, and what the champions were having to deal with, etc. Otherwise, nobody
would have known what was going on at all---else why would they have cheered when
wet Champions started reappearing with other people in tow?

And I thought that probably some version of the spell that produced the
Marauder's Map might have been in private use on the maze during the task, for
surely the judges realized that in some situations the champions might not have
time to send up sparks? Or, if they have, as an aid to knowing where in the maze
the party in trouble was?

Sorry, haven't read it in a while, these may be wildly unfounded.

--Amanda, spoiler queen




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Sep 26 21:15:31 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:15:31 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] And now for something really depressing 
In-Reply-To: <8qqkej+thnb@eGroups.com>
References: <39CF445E.3AC7394F@hic.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000926141200.027985c0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2267

At 04:55 PM 9/26/00 +0000, eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:
>Gee, and people say my scenario for the last book is too dark! I find
>the idea of Ron betraying Harry far more depressing than our hero
>going out in a blaze of glory at the end of book 7.

Yes, that's a good point.  Of course the other scenario that's cropped up
(based on that story about the chess player that was killed by a rat) is
that Ron will try to murder Harry and Wormtail will kill Ron (and *that's*
how he'll save Harry).  I find that one *really* depressing.



                                                 -- Dave




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Sep 26 21:26:03 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:26:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] England Counties for Lori
In-Reply-To: <39D09DBE.A91503AF@hic.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEOBCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2268

Sorry to post on just one topic but have not had chance to read all the
messages yet.

Yes. West Midlands is a county.
Hereford and Worcester is I believe two counties but has been one in its
past (i.e. in the map I am using).
Yorkshire is in fact 3 counties - North, South and West Yorkshire.
Those were the only mistakes that I spotted.

Simon






From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Sep 26 21:30:52 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:30:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEODCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2269

Brooks R wrote:

> And when Wormtail
> did the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh
> Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.

In GoF Bertha (I think that is the write person) is taken hostage before
Wormtail has got to Voldemort. Voldemort gets some sort of body back after
this has occurred. SO the wand must have existed here as Bertha is one of
the wand echoes.

Simon

PS: We aren't using spoiler space are we?




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 26 21:33:54 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:33:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
References: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com> <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00d001c02801$79695b40$fd66073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2270

> And *somewhere* in book 4 is a mention of why Dumbledore keeps sending
Harry
> back to the Dursleys--some sort of "do you know how well protected he is
> there" or something, that I dimly remember mentions old magic too---I
> couldn't find it on a quick scan, anyone know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, apparently Harry can't be touched while he's with blood relatives, and
in order to bring that about, old magic was invoked.  Which could possibly
be another reason why Voldemort couldn't seriously injure him when he was
with his parents, quite apart from Lily's sacrifice.

Don't know about anyone else, but I was strongly reminded of the Deeper
Magic from before the Dawn of Time, which saves Aslan in The Lion, The Witch
and The Wardrobe - I was also thinking of this regarding Lily's sacrifice.
In both books innocent parties willingly sacrifice their lives to save
another, although in Aslan's case the magic works because he was sacrificed
in the stead of a traitor, and he returns to life, whereas Lily dies trying
to protect her innocent son, and isn't even aware of the protection she
bestows on Harry.

Alix




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 21:50:53 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:50:53 GMT
Subject: Bludgers (was Multiple topics)
Message-ID: <F248VrPm5QuG6kpaNms00005d4a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2271

"Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at indy.net>

"To my surprise, Olympic coverage has brought out something interesting
related to HP."

I'm surprised that the Olymics has brought anything interesting full stop. 
(writing as I am from 'the olympic city')

"If I heard it right, the Aussie word of the day I heard
during the coverage just now was "Bludger", meaning a goldbricker
(that's an old US Army term) - someone who hangs around and appears to
be working but is not pulling his/her weight - a do-nothing."

you hear right. the pollies like to though it around as 'dole bludger' 
(person on social security)and it can also be used to describe an 
undemanding task 'that was a bit of a bludge'

"The bludgers of course are the balls that run around and try to knock 
people
off their brooms in Quidditch; it is the function of the players known
as Beaters to intercept these and try to knock them at the opposing
team. "

In this context (and possibly in my mind only) it has a thug connatation. I 
suppose that (reaching here) it could be that ppl who can bludge are those 
who can intimidate others into doing the work or not challedging the bludger 
for not working

ANway, like all words if you say them frequently enought 'bludger' is now 
beginning to sound like a nonsence word in my head so I should stop here.

storm



----Original Message Follows----
From: Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Multiple topics
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:08:45 -0500

 >  But it makes sense that the *biggest* thing
 > Dumbledore is sitting on has to do with Harry specifically.  (Ebony)

This is even clearly stated in Book I where Dumbledore tells Harry that
he cannot yet tell harry why Voldemort was after him at Godric's Hollow
in the first place.

No problem with posting that bit meant for me to the list, Ebony; it's
now open that I have three chapters of the Dumbledore-Grindelwald duel
done.  Penny has sent me corrections on
chapters 2 & 3 which reminded me how long it has been since I have
written dialogue....
but I am still going to save the title "Wartime" for a Time-of-Voldy
fanfic, rather than use it on this.  I have sent you chaps. 2 & 3 with
Penny's corrections, not incorporated but appended.  (And VM, I still
would like more comments from you if you have time)

On ths subject of the robes.  FWIW, (For what it's worth) one of the
game magazines that was talking about the forthcoming Harry Potter
collectible card game had pics of him on broomstick on cover for 2-3
months )(I'd like them if they didn't make him look like young Clark
Kent with a scar) (and speak of possible comparison for Harry!  Now
THERE is a subject for a compare-and-contrast essay!) the robes are
gaping open showing muggle clothes under.  Ditto, I think, the Christmas 
ornament.

There ought to be an online map that shows counties in England - try
searching for some of the genealogy websites; I'm almost certain I've
seen one there.

Has anybody noticed that some posts recently have spelled Voldemort
'Voldamore' or 'Voldemore'?  I suspect those are people who have been
listening to the tapes, not reading the books.  Interesting.

Totally off topic, but for any other WWII history buffs out there, I've
just learned that Saburo Sakai, the top surviving Japanese fighter ace,
died last week of a heart attack, age 84.  A very interesting guy, as
anyone who read his autobioraphy can attest; and he was in the news
again recently, outspoken, telling the Japanese public they had better
learn to accept the fact that they were aggressors, not victims, in WWII.

Staying in the Pacific for a moment:


-Brooks

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From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 26 21:53:54 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:53:54 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qr5ti+k3ju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2272

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Brooks R wrote:
> 
> > And when Wormtail
> > did the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh
> > Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.
> 
> Do you mean the spell to make him the little baby-size gross thing 
that
> drank venom, 

yep.


> And *somewhere* in book 4 is a mention of why Dumbledore keeps 
sending Harry
> back to the Dursleys--some sort of "do you know how well protected 
he is
> there" or something, that I dimly remember mentions old magic 
too---I
> couldn't find it on a quick scan, anyone know what I'm talking 
about?

yep, that is also in Voldy's Exposition (violating one of the Evil 
Overlord resolutions....) - Dumbledore did something to protect Harry 
while he is in care of blood relatives.  Which is why I suggested a 
couple of weeks ago that Voldy just put a conventional contract out
on Petunia and Dudley.  But he wouldn't stoop to having Muggle 
criminals do such a thing, because they are, well, Muggles.

-Brooks




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Sep 26 21:06:43 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:06:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT:  Another British question. - Middlesex
References: <v02140b1bb5f5e84f9e67@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <000201c02804$e17511e0$0208893e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 2273

I hate to be pedantic but Middlesex where incidentally I live is no longer a
county, as it is not a political or administrative region only a postal
address (Good old Royal Mail won't change for anyone) as it has been
swallowed up by Greater London. I can't tell you when this happened, but if
for some reason you wish to use "Miserable Middx" there's still a cricket
team and a hospital so theres enough precedent.






From brooksar at indy.net  Tue Sep 26 22:01:07 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:01:07 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <00d001c02801$79695b40$fd66073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8qr6b3+se4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2274

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> > And *somewhere* in book 4 ....that I dimly remember mentions old 
magic 
too---I

(snip)
> 
> Don't know about anyone else, but I was strongly reminded of the 
Deeper
> Magic from before the Dawn of Time, which saves Aslan in The Lion, 
The Witch
> and The Wardrobe - 


Yep, I thought of PRECISELY that same thing - Deep Magic from before 
the Dawn of Time, from L,W&W.

By the way, let's ask another question  - relating Narnia 
(specifically, _The Magician's Nephew_), and the world as described
in Tolkien's _The Silmarillion_.  Anybody else notice that both
worlds come to be, in the same way - their Creator SINGS them into 
existence?

-Brooks




From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 26 22:14:45 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:14:45 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <8qmnig+j6cd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qr74l+nri1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2275

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> When Snape was a kid he was a cheerful boy who's driving ambition 
>was to learn all the magic there was to learn. 

Which is why Sirius described him as a (pardon me, I don't have my 
copy of GOF w/me) "slimy, greasy, oily kid ... who knew more curses 
when he got here than half the 7th year students." Or words to that 
effect.

>His first course at 
> Hogwarts was "charms", they were learning love potions. 

Somewhere in the books it's mentioned that love potions aren't 
allowed at Hogwarts. Sorry, but I'm feeling nit-picky today. <g>

What's wrong with Snape being a SOB just because he's a SOB? There's 
plenty of them out there. I'm sure most of us have worked with/for a 
few of them. <g>

Let Snape be Snape! 

ht

(can you tell it's been a rough day @work?)






From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 26 22:29:36 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:29:36 +0100
Subject: OT: L, W & W (Was pushing HP)
References: <8qr6b3+se4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010401c02809$416db760$fd66073e@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2276


----- Original Message -----
From: Brooks R <brooksar at indy.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...>
> wrote:
> > > And *somewhere* in book 4 ....that I dimly remember mentions old
> magic
> too---I
>
> (snip)
> >
> > Don't know about anyone else, but I was strongly reminded of the
> Deeper
> > Magic from before the Dawn of Time, which saves Aslan in The Lion,
> The Witch
> > and The Wardrobe -
>
>
> Yep, I thought of PRECISELY that same thing - Deep Magic from before
> the Dawn of Time, from L,W&W.
>
> By the way, let's ask another question  - relating Narnia
> (specifically, _The Magician's Nephew_), and the world as described
> in Tolkien's _The Silmarillion_.  Anybody else notice that both
> worlds come to be, in the same way - their Creator SINGS them into
> existence?

Well, Tolkien and Lewis were friends at Oxford - maybe it was an in-joke
between writer friends!

Alix




From JandLComm at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 22:47:53 2000
From: JandLComm at aol.com (JandLComm at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:47:53 -0000
Subject: GoF timing
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEPACCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qr92q+qsos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2277

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
.  Same thing for
> Task 3... I just can't see the excitement of staring at a bunch of 
bushes
> for an hour waiting to see who comes out at the end.  If I was 
cheering for
> someone in a tournament, I'd want to SEE them performing the tasks, 
as
> everyone got to do in Task 1 with the dragons.  Otherwise, it's 
like waiting
> outside the Olympic stadiums to see which athletes come out with 
the medals,
> without knowing how or why they won.

I could be mixed-up, here, but I think they COULD see.  The maze was 
in the quidditch field, wasn't it?  In that case, the stands were 
built up high.  In SS the quidditch stands are described, "Hundreds 
of seats were raised in stands around the field so that the 
spectators were high enough to see what was going on." And the goal 
posts were like "the little plastic sticks Muggle children blew 
bubbles through, except that they were fifty feet high."  Surely 
stands built high enough to see activity around fifty foot goal posts 
would be high enough to see down into a maze.  How high were the 
shrubs? Twenty feet?
> 
> How wonderful it would have been, on the other hand, for the entire 
school
> to witness the final scenes before Harry and Cedric decided to 
share the
> Triwizard Cup.  Even if they couldn't HEAR what was being said, 
they would
> have been able to figure out what was going on.  The tension in the 
crowd
> would have been unbearable, waiting to see who won.  Then, of 
course, the
> pandemonium that would have ensued when both champions vanished 
from the
> spot.




From drmm at Juno.com  Tue Sep 26 22:40:07 2000
From: drmm at Juno.com (Dr M M)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:40:07 -0500
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong
Message-ID: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2278

I have to say I agree with a lot of the things you said.  One of the
things I've thought for quite a while now is that people underestimate
Ron.  Because he doesn't seem to have the "smarts" that Hermione does or
Harry's Quidditch skills and scar and isn't the focus of the books,
people always assume that he's weaker than either one of them.  While I'm
not claiming that Ron's the most powerful wizard in existance, I do think
that he's quite powerful in his own way.  I mean, it's stated that he and
Harry do quite well on their exams even though we *know* they never
study.  If he didn't have ability he would be a more Neville-like
character.  Ron is insecure, but he's a teenage boy with legends for
older siblings to compete with.  I think his insecurity is
understandable.  I also think Hermione is just as insecure as he is.  If
she wasn't would she really be bragging about her knowledge in class the
way she does?  I think, that given time, both of them will mature and
gain self -esteem.  Ron won't feel the need to compete with his brothers
and Hermione won't be so desperate about showing off. . . . (note: this
is why I can never buy the whole "Harry and Hermione are more equal"
argument)

I'm not anti-H/H.  I just think R/H is just as right (more IMO) as an H/H
pairing would be.  

My main complaint with the H/H idea is (besides the Ron issue) that the
books would turn into the Harry and Hermione Show (tm).  I mean, even PoU
(the best H/H work I've read) places such significance on the
relationship that Hermione gets as much, if not more, screen time as
Harry.  The books are about Harry, and, to a lesser degree, his
friendship with Ron and Hermione.  If he and Hermione got together, I
can't think of any way it would be possible to keep this structure
intact.  Ron would be shoved off to the side and Harry and Hermione would
have the entire stage to themselves.  That's why I'm more in favor of a
Harry/ other pairing (H/G being my favorite).  A secondary character can
be important but could never steal screen time away from Harry or Ron and
Hermione.

Although actually . . . I still think it's silly to try and see what
person is the destined love of a 14 year old kids life ;)

That's my opinion.  Feel free to have yours ;)

*~*~*~*~*~*~*
DrMM can be reached at drmm at juno.com or #9689360 on ICQ
The Many Worlds of DrMM at http://drmm.simplenet.com/
Most Recent Anime: Kiki's Delivery Service
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 26 23:09:43 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:09:43 -0400
Subject: reviews of the various books created to cash in on the HP phenom
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39D12CB7.5E9B8626@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2279

by which I mean books about HP & JKR, not other books which are recommended
to fans of the books  - the article is at
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/daily/detail/0,1136,35000000000118772,00.html

To quote a line fromt he article: This kind of biography is sometimes called
"fictionalized." That  means the author imagines things he hasn't actually
seen, as in this description of Rowling at work: "A smile crosses her face.
Her  already expressive eyes, framed by long wavy hair, grow even   wider.
Her pen slashes across the paper like a lightning bolt."




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Sep 26 23:40:43 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:40:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H/H and why it's just wrong (or maybe not), the triad and chapter numbers
In-Reply-To: <39D107C9.DA0CE496@hic.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEODCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2280

Sorry to start with a complaint.

Can I ask for people to post chapter number for quotes and comments and not
page numbers? Please remember that the British edition is different to the
American one and one of the main differences is in length. It gets annoying
having to try and work out where these quotes are.

Now to deal with the subject in hand. I better say in advance that I am a
Harry / Cho person myself (if I am giving a sensible idea - if not then it
is Harry / Hedwig). So in some ways I must be the closest to an impartial
voice as you could get in this discussion, or maybe not!

Penny Wrote: "Then see pages 264-265 of PoA.  It's Harry who breaks away
from the crowd to seek out Hermione.  He clearly wants her to join in and
he's wondering if *Ron* is in a good enough mood to bury the hatchet (this
suggests that it isn't Harry who has any problems with Hermione at all at
this point & that he wants their friendship back).  After Hermione leaves
the room in tears, Harry says "Can't you give her a break?"  This does *not*
sound like someone who's unconcerned about his friendship with Hermione.  I
strongly disagree with your assertion that he's ambivalent about whether
Hermione makes it up with he and Ron.  I think he cares very much."

Ron is Harry's best friend. He is also the person who has been friends with
Harry the longest (I am looking at Harry's peer group so I can ignore Hagrid
in my comments). We see in GoF the reaction Harry has when Ron is not
talking to him. He goes back into his shell (there is slightly more than the
bust up to blame for this but it is one of the most important reasons behind
it - see GoF Chapter 18) during this time. He needs Ron to help him through
life in the wizarding world and I think that Harry knows this. I got the
impression during PoA that he was making sure he kept Ron as a friend and in
doing so not putting the effort he should have done to get Ron and Hermione
talking.

In fact we could compare the actions of Hermione and Harry when members of
the triad are not talking. Which brings the question of what would Ron do if
Hermione and Harry had a bust up. I know that I am ignoring the full
situation of the PoA bust up but I get the impression that Harry did not
really hold any lasting grudge against Hermione.

"BTW, I can't help but wonder why people who are anti H/H always say that
H/H is just "wrong."  That turn of a phrase is used pretty repeatedly by the
anti-H/H types, and it always raises weird connotations in my mind (like
there's some sort of *taboo* against H/H)."

I think this is because that, even though Harry is the star of the show,
people identify more closely with and like Ron more (a statement that is
bound to provoke lots of comments). There always seems to be more of a
reaction if people suggest Ron will die during the series than if it is
suggested that Harry will end up kicking the bucket (this could be that
people do not think that JKR could get away with killing Harry but Ron is a
different issue). Due to this, especially when looking at all the things Ron
does not have (no money, family pressures for him to succeed at school and
Quidditch and I think the list could be even longer), people feel that Ron
should have Hermione. This is the main reason I am against Harry / Hermione.
It is that I feel Ron would be really hurt by the other two getting together
and that again he would have come second to Harry.

"Penny
(who's spent entirely too much time with this!)"

Likewise. I really have far too many other things to do as well. Packing is
just so much fun (does anyone notice a hint of irony?)!

Simon





From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 00:21:24 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:21:24 -0000
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong (or maybe not), the triad and chapter numbers
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEODCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8qrei4+aucq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2281

-I think this is because that, even though Harry is the star of the 
show,  people identify more closely with and like Ron more (a 
statement that is bound to provoke lots of comments). There always 
seems to be more of a reaction if people suggest Ron will die during 
the series than if it is suggested that Harry will end up kicking the 
bucket (this could be that people do not think that JKR could get
away 
with killing Harry but Ron is a  different issue). Due to this, 
especially when looking at all the things Ron  does not have (no 
money, family pressures for him to succeed at school and  Quidditch 
and I think the list could be even longer), people feel that Ron 
should have Hermione. This is the main reason I am against Harry / 
Hermione. It is that I feel Ron would be really hurt by the other two 
getting together and that again he would have come second to Harry.

I think it depends what angle one is approaching the whole pairings 
thing from. If one identifies with Hermione (as I think a lot of 
female readers do, since, as has been discussed before, there isn't 
anyone else to identify with -- we know next to nothing about Cho 
aside from the fact that she's pretty (yawn) and Ginny is alas, none 
too interesting either), Ron, well....he's not much of a romantic 
hero, like him though we may. (And I, for one, like Harry better. As
a character, not as a possible love interest for Hermione.) And I
hate 
the thought "Well, he's got no money, no Quidditch skills, and an 
inferiority complex -- let's give him Hermione to balance it out!" I 
think I may already have said this, so pardon the repetition, but I 
don't think the solution to Ron's problems is Hermione for a 
girlfriend. I think he'd be much better off given some arena to shine 
in, be it chess (he is good at chess)...or some kind of sport...or 
perhaps he will turn out to be fabulous at Arithmancy...or SOMETHING. 
Something that would firmly remove him from the shadows cast by his 
older siblings, which dating Hermione, frankly, wouldn't. Aside from 
the fact that his insecurities and jealousies make him unappealing 
boyfriend material.
I am no die-hard H/H person, but I would venture to say that many of 
them don't see a Harry/Hermione relationship while they're all at 
Hogwarts anyway; they see it many years down the road, when they're 
all grown up a bit and Ron will be much less (if at all) hurt by 
it.Just my 2 knutes...
 





From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 01:18:21 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:18:21 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
Message-ID: <F821WE9ql2RkeS8Ykda00005d61@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2282

From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
2.  There have been a number of Harry Potter-related references in
various comics lately.  The only really funny one that I have seen
lately is the one in this weeks New Yorker - a little girl is sitting
next to a bed containing her bleary-eyed and half-asleep parents.
She is reading out loud from GoF: *Dumbledores eyes twinkled...*

I was reading "Dykes to watch out for" last night had Alison B has had HP 
going several episondes now - including the PC parents giving in to Raffi 
and taking him to the bookshop first thing in the morning after pressure 
from another child

storm
----Original Message Follows----

Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:06:14 -0000

1.  Has anyone else who lives in the DC area noticed that for the
last few weeks, the Harry Potter books have mysteriously disappeared
from the Washington Post Book World Best Seller list?  They have not,
as far as I can see, started a separate childrens list the way the NY
Times did - the books are simply gone.  Since it is unlikely that
people in the DC area have suddently stopped buying HP books,
something odd seems to be going on.

2.  There have been a number of Harry Potter-related references in
various comics lately.  The only really funny one that I have seen
lately is the one in this weeks New Yorker - a little girl is sitting
next to a bed containing her bleary-eyed and half-asleep parents.
She is reading out loud from GoF: *Dumbledores eyes twinkled...*

3.  On a recent plane trip to the West Coast, someone in the row
behind me AND someone in the row in front of me were reading HP
books.  Both were adults.  (We are everywhere!)

-- Joywitch


_________________________________________________________________________
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From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 01:34:17 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:34:17 -0000
Subject: various small HP factoids
In-Reply-To: <F821WE9ql2RkeS8Ykda00005d61@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qriqp+ju6g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2283

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Snuffles Macgoo" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
> I was reading "Dykes to watch out for" last night had Alison B has 
had HP 
> going several episondes now - including the PC parents giving in to 
Raffi 
> and taking him to the bookshop first thing in the morning after 
pressure 
> from another child

In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at 
MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the Gargantuan 
Royalty Check*.  Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal favorite 
cartoonists.

-- Joywitch




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 01:46:01 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:46:01 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: various small HP factoids
Message-ID: <F26620lbhsKd6QR7j1H00006154@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2284

yeah, she's pretty good (but not synidicated in Aust - never mind.) In the 
story I was referring to the other kid is getting his book in the morning 
because he was the 2,500,000,000 (or something) reader to order from a 
certain web site ...  *Slightly* subversive.

storm


----Original Message Follows----
From: "Joywitch " <joym999 at aol.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: various small HP factoids
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:34:17 -0000

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Snuffles Macgoo" <msmacgoo at h...>
wrote:
 > I was reading "Dykes to watch out for" last night had Alison B has
had HP
 > going several episondes now - including the PC parents giving in to
Raffi
 > and taking him to the bookshop first thing in the morning after
pressure
 > from another child

In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at
MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the Gargantuan
Royalty Check*.  Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal favorite
cartoonists.

-- Joywitch


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 27 02:01:41 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:01:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tim Powers (was: A pet peeve about Sirius-like men.  . .)
References: <20000926130323.22102.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <39D15505.28301186@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2285

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> On Mon, 25 September 2000, Peg Kerr wrote:
>
> Oh my goodness. <snip> You know Tim Powers, too?

Yeah.  I know LOTS of writers, but I met Tim because he was one of my teachers when I went to the Clarion Science Fiction Workshop in 1988--he was the best of the six teachers I had.  A very gracious gentleman and a
wonderful mentor.  We've kept in touch sporadically since.

When I was in graduate school, I interviewed him about the writing of _On Stranger Tide_ for one of my papers for my masters degree.  (It was during that interview that I teased him about character development by
dismemberment.)  Fascinating experience to interview him--and the paper was fun to write, too.  I have a copy of that interview on tape somewhere around here. . .

I do really recommend his fiction.

Peg




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 02:02:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:02:26 -0500
Subject: Narnia/Silmarillion
References: <970009271.27300@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D15532.780A75E6@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2286

> >
> > By the way, let's ask another question  - relating Narnia
> > (specifically, _The Magician's Nephew_), and the world as described
> > in Tolkien's _The Silmarillion_.  Anybody else notice that both
> > worlds come to be, in the same way - their Creator SINGS them into
> > existence?
> 
> Well, Tolkien and Lewis were friends at Oxford - maybe it was an in-joke
> between writer friends!
> 
> Alix

In fact I rather think that Lewis was inspired by Tolkien here (_The
Silmarillion_ was written long before it was ever published, so it could
easily have been written before _The Magician's Nephew_).  Not just an
in - joke, but that he liked the imagery so much he went ahead and used
it, figuring that _The Silmarillion_ would never actually be published.

-Brooks



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 27 02:10:46 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:10:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron needs a niche: (was re: H/H and why it's just  wrong)
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39D15725.DF7C5EC2@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2287



Dr M M wrote:

> I have to say I agree with a lot of the things you said.  One of the
> things I've thought for quite a while now is that people underestimate
> Ron.  Because he doesn't seem to have the "smarts" that Hermione does or
> Harry's Quidditch skills and scar and isn't the focus of the books,
> people always assume that he's weaker than either one of them.  While I'm
> not claiming that Ron's the most powerful wizard in existance, I do think
> that he's quite powerful in his own way.

This is really an interesting thread.

One thing I've been wondering: could Ron have some kind of area where he
could shine that he just hasn't discovered yet?  For example, how would he do
at Quidditch if someone gave him a Firebolt?  Could he join the team next
year?  The problem, as you point out, is that all the areas he can think of
where he could shine, his brothers have gotten there first, and the best he
might hope for is "you're a Quidditch star, just like Charlie" or "you're as
good at curse-breaking as Bill" or "great job on the test, Ron--if you keep
up the work, you'll shine at your studies as much as Percy did!"

What areas COULD he excel in that he hasn't tried yet?  I think it would
really help if he could find something (the way that Neville, for example, in
GoF realized that he is really is good at herbology--this discovery gave him
a desperately needed boost.)  Or is Ron doomed to stay in the shadow
forever?  He certainly has the thirst to distinguish himself (remember his
vision in the mirror of Erised?), to the extent that I wonder whether the
sorting hat might have offered him a place in Slytherin, too!

Wondering . . .
Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 27 02:11:34 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:11:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/H and why it's just wrong
References: <20000926145717.24087.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <39D15756.47ABCC33@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2288


voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> Along the same lines, I'm finding it amusing that we even feel the need to pair up people at all.  Reading Paradigm of Uncertainty, I'm enjoying it greatly, but I think that's because they are older and more mature, but the whole speculation about pairings in the canon, well, it's really rather unnecessary, isn't it?

Maybe . . . but it sure is fun!

Peg




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 02:09:38 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:09:38 -0000
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong
In-Reply-To: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <8qrkt2+dcbv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2289

 
> Although actually . . . I still think it's silly to try and see what
> person is the destined love of a 14 year old kids life ;)

Righto! They ARE kids. I think Rowling realizes that her characters 
are still *kids* and that's why she hasn't committed any of them into 
romantic relationships as of GoF. 

You made a VERY good point about Hermione's insecurity. 
  




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 02:13:55 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:13:55 -0000
Subject: something REALLY depressing
In-Reply-To: <8qqkej+thnb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qrl53+kpim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2290

But the MOST depressing thing of all is that we have to wait what 
seems like uncountable months until HP#5, and years and years until 
the end of the HP series. I don't think I can wait that long! I want 
to know what happens right NOW!!! ;o)




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 02:19:30 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:19:30 -0000
Subject: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
Message-ID: <8qrlfi+flq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2291

First of all I know that many of you will completly hate me after 
this post, but before I am completely ostracized please "hear" my 
opinion.

Trelawny Mode coming on...Ron lovers beware I spare neither the blade 
nor the blood...

Firstly I do not think Ron will die.

However I predict something far worse happening to Ron. Yes, you 
guessed it, the one thing worse than death.

Voldemort is everywhere and to protect Harry, Ron has become his 
secret keeper. After all who does Harry trust more?  Ron is sick of 
being overshadowed by his family and is friends.  Then, because Harry 
is in hiding he gets the chance to become seeker for the Gryf. 
Quidditch team (or something to this effect.)  Everything is going 
fine for Ron,(finally getting some attention) and someone that he 
trusts wants to know where the location of Harry.  

Ron is reluctant to give this info but, after all it IS a person that 
he trusts...It is only after it is to late that he relises that he 
has betrayed Harry. 

Unable to accept that he has betrayed Harry he rushes to his side, 
which (and this is stretching it) is in (hmmm) Dumbledore's office. 
To get there he uses a special floo powder and only has enough to get 
there and leave once, and for one person.  

When he arrives the Dementors are closing in on Harry, enveloping him 
in their power and Harry is at the time Wandless (Now that is REALLY 
stretching it but please keep reading), Ron tries desperately to 
create a patronus but his efforts are in vain.  Unable to think of 
another solution he throws the floo powder to Harry and tells him to 
leave. Harry doesn't know what to do but Ron reaffirms that Harry 
must leave, and therefore Ron takes the kiss that was meant for 
Harry, the ultimate sacrifice of friendship....

*sniff*,*sniff* oh, maybe this won't happen, just the thought makes 
you choked up (or at least it makes me that way).

Comments?

Scott




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 02:21:36 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:21:36 -0500
Subject: Tim Powers and other brief OT notes
References: <970009271.27300@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D159B0.389E9324@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2292

Speaking of Tim:

Forthcoming:
Powers, Tim o Night Moves and Other Stories o (Subterranean Press, cln, hc)

Also for those who are fans of "Chicks in Chainmail":

Forthcoming:
Friesner, Esther M., & Martin H. Greenberg, eds. o The Chick is in the
Mail o 
(Baen, anth)

More new book information is available at http//www.locusmag.com

Some movie news:

Elfquest has received the green light, a commitment from the studio to
make 
the film.  It will be animated and Wendi Pini is listed as co-screen
writer 
and production designer.  The company is exploring the use of CGI but
the 
exact form of animation has not been determined.  Release is scheduled
for 
2002.

-Brooks
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.



From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 27 02:26:52 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:26:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H/H and why it's just wrong
References: <8qqib8+s9r7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D15AEC.13AE2A82@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2293

cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com wrote:

> That's the thing that annoys me: if I read one more H/H fanfic where
> Ron says  some variation of "I knew you guys always liked each other,
> I'm so happy for  you, I'm glad I got over that little crush in our
> fourth year", I am going to   scream!  We all know that even if Ron
> did get over his crush, he would still   be jealous of anyone else
> who
> went out with Hermione.

<snip?>

> Ah, you picked up on that? *grins* Nobody else did...I agree that Ron
> often gets shunted aside in fanfic by people racing to pair up Harry
> and Hermione; I'm certainly guilty of that, too. (Although my
> original
> intention was to pair up Hermione and Draco, but that just didn't
> work
> out.) I think it can work, however, without having to make Ron either
> dead or terminally evil as a result. The main problem with a Harry/
> Hermione relationship vis-a-vis Ron, in my opinion (and it's just my
> opinion) is not his jealousy over Hermione per se, but his resentment
> over being suddenly a third wheel. He already has issues about being
> in Harry's shadow, as we all know, and being part of this very strong
> trio of friends is a large part of his identity. If he felt shut out
> by Harry and Hermione, I can certainly see that being the end of
> their
> joint friendship.

Off topic, but not really: there's a pretty good movie that deals with
exactly this situation: Keeping the Faith (see
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0171433 on the Internet Movie Database).  Three
kids, two boys and a girl, grow up together and have a fantastically close
friendship.  One of the boys becomes a priest and the other a rabbi.
Everything changes when the girl comes back into their lives and falls in
love with one of them--but which one?  Everyone is a decent person, and they
all really care for each other, and that's what makes it all the more
fascinating/heartbreaking.  I think the way the relationships all change
(between the two men as as as between the woman and each of the men) is
handled thoughtfully, sensitively and honestly.

Those interested in H/Hr and R/Hr relationships might want to take a look at
this movie for some insight into the way the dynamics might play out between
three people who really care for each other as they grow up, who start
realizing that developing romantic tension is going to change things
forever.

Peg




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 03:04:18 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:04:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yet another Snape Theory
References: <8qr74l+nri1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D163B2.C8B0C715@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2294

ht wrote:

> >His first course at
> > Hogwarts was "charms", they were learning love potions.
>
> Somewhere in the books it's mentioned that love potions aren't
> allowed at Hogwarts. Sorry, but I'm feeling nit-picky today. <g>

Me, too....why would you learn a potion in a charms class?

> What's wrong with Snape being a SOB just because he's a SOB? There's
> plenty of them out there.

His SOB-ness doesn't really interfere with most of our theories,
either....even SOBs fall in love, and their nature often makes the goal
unattainable.

> Let Snape be Snape!

To be sure, but he's so deliciously, deceptively complex-under-simple. It's
like a Rubik's cube, ya gotta fool with it.

> (can you tell it's been a rough day @work?)

Yep. Long day here, too.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 03:22:52 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:22:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: various small HP factoids
References: <8qriqp+ju6g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D1680C.FDB5E0CB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2295

Joywitch wrote:

> In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at
> MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the Gargantuan
> Royalty Check*.

Is this where Dave Barry got the one of the spoof titles he used in his
amazing funny column about Harry Potter? The next one was "Harry Potter Buys
Microsoft."

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 03:28:14 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:28:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron needs a niche: (was re: H/H and why it's just   wrong)
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com> <39D15725.DF7C5EC2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <39D1694E.865B0119@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2296

Peg Kerr wrote:

> One thing I've been wondering: could Ron have some kind of area where he
> could shine that he just hasn't discovered yet?

Well, in the thread about possible older Weasley kids, if there was another son,
he'd be a seventh son, which is an opening for unusual skills at healing. It's
reaching, his dad would have to have been a seventh, too, but I've been thinking
along your general lines, as well.

--Amanda, who never learned the guitar because she couldn't instantly do it as
well as her brothers already did....




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 03:31:45 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:31:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
References: <8qrlfi+flq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D16A21.8B8D9E82@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2297

Scott wrote:

> *sniff*,*sniff* oh, maybe this won't happen, just the thought makes
> you choked up (or at least it makes me that way).

Ugh, I hope not, but plausible. I do think that if betrayal of Harry is
involved, it will be doubly bitter because the betrayer won't realize what
he/she has done. For a bit.

Where did this whole "betrayal" proposition come from, anyway? It was around
as a fully developed discussion when I joined.

--Amanda




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:38:43 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:38:43 -0000
Subject: H/H and why it's just wrong and it IS wrong
In-Reply-To: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <8qrq43+2qtg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2298

It's just wrong. Those of us who know that have good instincts about 
this stuff (if I used emoticons, I would use one that indicated that 
this was a little joke, not meant seriously at all).

It is true that people who are friends later become lovers.

I think that there are all kinds of indicators that Ron and Hermione 
will have a relationship. As I said before, I have the feeling that 
Harry will be the third person in the same way Sirius was the best 
man for Harry and Lily.

I DO think Hermione has indicated feelings for Ron. She finally
confronts his jealousy by suggesting he ask her out more quickly next 
time. She is QUITE annoyed when he succumbs to the Fleur/veela allure.

Harry indicates STRONGLY that Hermione is NOT his girlfriend. There 
is NO indication that he will change his feelings, yet there are lots 
of indicators that both Hermione and Ron are already interested in 
each other. Harry cares for Hermione as a good friend, but it's 
his "wheezy" who he would miss the most.

Hermione is flattered by Viktor and likes him, but is obviously not 
romantically interested in him the way he is in her.

Ron and Hermione have always spatted in the tradition of adolescent 
crushes  -- from the first book --- are you a witch or what?  (and by 
the way, I remember the name of every single one of my adolescent 
crushes from Helen Sanford, the camp bugler at Camp Teata when I was 
12 to George Thom my social studies teacher in West Hempstead, New 
York when I was 14, etc. etc. etc.)

But most tellingly, they become "oddly formal" with each other.

I can't wait for the next book to watch their blossoming romance 
continue....

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:46:19 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:46:19 -0000
Subject: various small HP factoids
In-Reply-To: <8qriqp+ju6g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qrqib+qjeq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2299

> 
> In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at 
> MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the 
Gargantuan 
> Royalty Check*.  Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal 
favorite 
> cartoonists.
> 
> -- Joywitch

Yeah, well, she used to be one of mine until she persisted in 
keeping Moe and Sydney together and did not realize that Moe should 
get reinvolved with her ex

Susan




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:46:54 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:46:54 -0000
Subject: various small HP factoids
In-Reply-To: <39D1680C.FDB5E0CB@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qrqje+q6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2300

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> > In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at
> > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the 
Gargantuan
> > Royalty Check*.
> 
> Is this where Dave Barry got the one of the spoof titles he used in 
his
> amazing funny column about Harry Potter? The next one was "Harry 
Potter Buys
> Microsoft."
> 
> --Amanda

I noticed that too.  Dave Barry is a very funny guy, but I wouldnt 
put it past him to steal a line from someone else.  Then again, I 
guess it is sort of an obvious joke.




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:49:40 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:49:40 -0000
Subject: was Re: various small HP factoids (OT)
In-Reply-To: <8qrqib+qjeq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qrqok+sd34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2301

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> > 
> > In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at 
> > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the 
> Gargantuan 
> > Royalty Check*.  Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal 
> favorite 
> > cartoonists.
> > 
> > -- Joywitch
> 
> Yeah, well, she used to be one of mine until she persisted in 
> keeping Moe and Sydney together and did not realize that Moe should 
> get reinvolved with her ex
> 
> Susan

This is completely OT but I can not resist - dont you just HATE 
Sydney?




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:53:44 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:53:44 -0000
Subject: fantasizing about prequels
In-Reply-To: <F248VrPm5QuG6kpaNms00005d4a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qrr08+mvrm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2302

Wouldn't it be fascinating if JKR decided to do a prequel about
the Marauders at Hogwarts?




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 03:58:30 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 03:58:30 -0000
Subject: Ron needs a niche: (was re: H/H and why it's just  wrong)
In-Reply-To: <39D15725.DF7C5EC2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8qrr96+clil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2303

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dr M M wrote:
> 
> > I have to say I agree with a lot of the things you said.  One of 
the
> > things I've thought for quite a while now is that people 
underestimate
> > Ron.  Because he doesn't seem to have the "smarts" that Hermione 
does or
> > Harry's Quidditch skills and scar and isn't the focus of the 
books,
> > people always assume that he's weaker than either one of them.  
While I'm
> > not claiming that Ron's the most powerful wizard in existance, I 
do think
> > that he's quite powerful in his own way.
> 
> This is really an interesting thread.
> 
> One thing I've been wondering: could Ron have some kind of area 
where he
> could shine that he just hasn't discovered yet?  For example, how 
would he do
> at Quidditch if someone gave him a Firebolt?  Could he join the 
team next
> year?  The problem, as you point out, is that all the areas he can 
think of
> where he could shine, his brothers have gotten there first, and the 
best he
> might hope for is "you're a Quidditch star, just like Charlie" 
or "you're as
> good at curse-breaking as Bill" or "great job on the test, Ron--if 
you keep
> up the work, you'll shine at your studies as much as Percy did!"
> 
> What areas COULD he excel in that he hasn't tried yet?  I think it 
would
> really help if he could find something (the way that Neville, for 
example, in
> GoF realized that he is really is good at herbology--this discovery 
gave him
> a desperately needed boost.)  Or is Ron doomed to stay in the shadow
> forever?  He certainly has the thirst to distinguish himself 
(remember his
> vision in the mirror of Erised?), to the extent that I wonder 
whether the
> sorting hat might have offered him a place in Slytherin, too!
> 
> Wondering . . .
> Peg



Hmmmm...fascinating...

Remember that Ron is a chess player in the CoS that is his special 
strength...

Given that all the good wizards and witches are about to embark on a 
major struggle against Voldemort, Malfoy et aliae, perhaps Ron will
become the strategist/general of the effort?

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 04:02:04 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 04:02:04 -0000
Subject: DTWOF COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC was Re: various small HP factoids (OT)
In-Reply-To: <8qrqok+sd34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qrrfs+6v5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2304

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> 
wrote:
> > > 
> > > In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at 
> > > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the 
> > Gargantuan 
> > > Royalty Check*.  Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal 
> > favorite 
> > > cartoonists.
> > > 
> > > -- Joywitch
> > 
> > Yeah, well, she used to be one of mine until she persisted in 
> > keeping Moe and Sydney together and did not realize that Moe 
should 
> > get reinvolved with her ex
> > 
> > Susan
> 
> This is completely OT but I can not resist - dont you just HATE 
> Sydney?

Goodness, yes! I just canNOT see the attraction......selling their
computer sex transcripts to Penthouse? Keeping the money? What a 
slime creature..






From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 04:12:26 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 04:12:26 GMT
Subject: (OT) comic strip
Message-ID: <F189wViaaskjeo4lB4B00000654@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2305

Alison Bechdel (sp?) is one of my personal
 > favorite
 > > cartoonists.
 > >
 > > -- Joywitch
 >
 > Yeah, well, she used to be one of mine until she persisted in
 > keeping Moe and Sydney together and did not realize that Moe should
 > get reinvolved with her ex
 >
 > Susan

This is completely OT but I can not resist - dont you just HATE
Sydney?

YES Of course, how could anyone not! I don't know that Mo should have got 
back with whats her name, bit cosy but she could have just stayed home with 
the pointer twins.  also ot I was dissapointeds to find out (in my 
meanderings last night) that there is no new Hothead Paisan [:(].

storm


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From drecla at msn.com  Wed Sep 27 04:12:46 2000
From: drecla at msn.com (Diann Recla)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:12:46 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch12  Discussion
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMELNCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJKEMLCHAA.DRecla@msn.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2306

The chapter opens with our heroes' arrival at Hogwarts.  They are already
wet when Peeves starts throwing water balloons.  Professor McGonagall comes
in to chase him off and hurry the students in to the Great Hall for the
sorting and the feast.

Muggle born Colin Creevey greets them with the news that his younger
brother, Dennis, will be joining him this year.  In the discussion of the
chances of Dennis being in Gryffindor we learn that Parvati Patil's twin
sister is in Ravenclaw.  It appears that members of the same family are not
always in the same house.

Harry notices a few vacant spots at the head table.  Where is the new DADA
teacher?  Is there a new DADA teacher?  Most of the old teachers are at the
table.  Harry notices Dumbledore looking at the ceiling above and realizes
that it has taken on the appearance of the storm outside.  The new students
appear in the hall to be sorted.  All appear to be terrified except for the
smallest who looks at Colin Creevey and mouths "I fell in the lake," he
seems to very happy about it.  The sorting hat sings its song and we
discover that the song is different every year.  Dennis joins Gryffindor.

The sorting is finally finished and the feast begins much to the delight of
Ron and Harry who are starving.  Nearly Headless Nick informs them that
Peeves had caused trouble in the kitchen almost causing the feast not to
take place.  It seemed that Peeves had "wreaked havoc and mayhem" and
"terrified the house-elves."  When Hermione learns that there is "the
largest number in any dwelling in Britain," she wants to know if they are
being paid and other benefits.   On learning that they do not she refuses to
eat any more of the feast.

After the feast Professor Dumbledore makes his announcements.  We first
learn of 3 new items banned from the castle (there are a total of 437 banned
items).  We next learn that there will be no House Quidditch Cup this year
to the dismay of the students.  Before we can learn what Percy has hinted at
all summer; what will take place at Hogwarts this year, a new arrival
interrupts.  It is a scarred individual with an eye that seems to move at
will - up, down, side to side, to the back of his head.  Dumbledore
introduces the new DADA teacher, Professor Moody - Mad-Eye Moody.
Dumbledore continues with the announcement of the first Triwizard Tournament
to take place in over 100 years.  It will take place at Hogwarts and
students from Beauxbatons and Durmstarang will also participate.  The
Tournament had been discontinued because of the high death toll.  Only
students who are of age (17) will be allowed to participate.  Of course
younger students immediately plan to try to enter.  The students from
Beauxbatons and Durmstarang will be arriving in October and the drawing for
school Champion (one from each school) will be on Halloween.  George, Fred,
Ron, and Harry all think about entering.

Questions
How old is Peeves?  Most of his actions appear to be that of a child.
Colin and Dennis are Muggle born brothers, is this fact important?
How did Moody arrive at Hogwarts?
Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating in activities
they can not legally do?






From xerxes909 at excite.com  Wed Sep 27 03:57:43 2000
From: xerxes909 at excite.com (xerxes)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Triwizard Tourney
Message-ID: <1762086.970027063394.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2307


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:04:50 -0500, HPforGrownups at egroups.com wrote:

>  SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:
>  
>  > Plenty of spoilers below for GOF:
>  
>  SHE remembers. Sorry again. And yes, look out below!
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  > The second & third ??? The second one took
>  > place under water, and the third in the maze. No mention was made of
play by
>  > play Screens, commentators or magical glasses. Did the spectators just
watch
>  > the clock, read Witch Weekly or play wizard chess until the end of the
hour?
>  
>  I sort of figured, on the basis of absolutely nothing, that during the
wait the
>  audience was given some detailed explanation of what the task being
undertaken
>  was, and what the champions were having to deal with, etc. Otherwise,
nobody
>  would have known what was going on at all---else why would they have
cheered when
>  wet Champions started reappearing with other people in tow?


I kind of like that explanation for the crowds...it makes more sense than
actually viewing the proceedings somehow by magic.


>  
>  And I thought that probably some version of the spell that produced the
>  Marauder's Map might have been in private use on the maze during the
task, for
>  surely the judges realized that in some situations the champions might
not have
>  time to send up sparks? Or, if they have, as an aid to knowing where in
the maze
>  the party in trouble was?
>  
>  Sorry, haven't read it in a while, these may be wildly unfounded.
>  
>  --Amanda, spoiler queen
>  


I don't think so, the reason being the fake Moody who was wandering around
the maze helping out Harry and hindering the other champions. The judges
would have seen him, even if he were invisible since the Marauder's Map
magic also shows invisible people.

judy



Press: What do you call that hairstyle?
George Harrison: Arthur
Press: How do you stand in the draft?
John Lennon: About 5'11"





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From xerxes909 at excite.com  Wed Sep 27 03:49:46 2000
From: xerxes909 at excite.com (xerxes)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF timing
Message-ID: <14543519.970026586249.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2308


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:55:43 +0100, HPforGrownups at egroups.com wrote:

>  
>  > Now signals had been sent up a couple of times prior to that for
>  > assistance IIRC. Perhaps that had alerted Dumbledore?
>  
>  But they were sent up by Fleur and Krum (well, Cedric on Krum's behalf)
who
>  needed rescuing from the maze.  That was expected, that not all the
>  champions would complete the task.  I doubt that in itself would cause
much
>  concern.
>  
>  Jinx
>  

True...I agree.
Now that would argue against the audience and/or judges viewing the
proceeding magically somehow. Why would a signal have to be sent up if the
judges presumably could see something was wrong?
So therefore I still think that Harry and Cedric weren't missed, unless
Dumbledore thought the tournament was taking an unusually long time to
finish and a champion to appear.

judy

Press: What do you call that hairstyle?
George Harrison: Arthur
Press: How do you stand in the draft?
John Lennon: About 5'11"





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From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 04:32:18 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 04:32:18 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <8qr74l+nri1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qrt8i+afau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2309

-ht " <hilary_tamar at h...> wrote:

>>When Snape was a kid he was a cheerful boy who's driving ambition 
>>was to learn all the magic there was to learn. 
 
> Which is why Sirius described him as a (pardon me, I don't have my 
> copy of GOF w/me) "slimy, greasy, oily kid

I did mention that this unfortunate incident happened on Snape's very 
first day at school.

>who knew more curses  when he got here than half the 7th year 
>students." 

I did mention that he was ambitious to learn all the magic there was 
to learn.

>>His first course at  Hogwarts was "charms", they were learning love 
potions. 
 
> Somewhere in the books it's mentioned that love potions aren't 
> allowed at Hogwarts.

That's true, love potions aren't allowed at Hogwarts, not now. And 
now you know why. An accident like that would certainly make people 
rethink what is taught and how.  

>What's wrong with Snape being a SOB just because he's a SOB? 

Because he wouldn't be very interesting then.

>There's plenty of them out there.

True, but I don't want to read about them.

 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 05:06:14 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:06:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantatem Order/Polyjuice Potion
References: <8qpga5+bhop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <039201c02846$e7a2c5c0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2310

Lupin and Black force him to resume his human form, in which...well, 
I'll be switched.  Peter is entirely wandless in the Shrieking Shack! 
(Else, why did he have to steal Ron's wand to make his bid for
rat-dom 
once again?)



How about this idea?  Being Voldy's wand, any other wizard who uses it is in for a shock!  or something (sorta a protection spell--cause of all that stuff Voldy did with it?  That comment about using someone else's wand in B1, Voldy's is at least 50+ years old minus 11 years, the amount of time he bonded with it.  Ron's bonded with his wand for what, ten months max?  

I think the idea is there, but the words are muffled.  After 450 emails, I think I have lost my mind... (Wrote zeros to my harddrive, and restored everything fresh.)    


Dee
who needssssssssssss sleep    


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep 27 05:05:45 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:05:45 -0700
Subject: Dragons - Symbolism
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEAACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2311

Having an interesting discussion on another e-group about dragon symbolism.
Here's an offering from one of the other members that is interesting in
light of the first task of the Triwizard Tournament. Although Harry turned
out to be the best at OUTWITTING the dragon rather than 'overcoming' it,
this meaning below still offers some interesting food for thought :


"The hero and dragon is an archetypal theme of the ego's triumph over
regressive trends. It is the dark or negative side of our personality. It is
the shadow aspect, that the hero must realize exists, so he can draw
strength from it. He must come to terms with his destructive powers if he is
to become sufficiently terrible to overcome the dragon. i.e., before the ego
can triumph, it must master and assimilate the shadow. In ancient times the
dragon was a symbol of great wealth of knowledge that was hidden in the
unconscious."

http://www.egroups.com/group/SpiritualAlchemy




From gchua at spicerspaperasia.com  Wed Sep 27 05:34:45 2000
From: gchua at spicerspaperasia.com (Gen )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 05:34:45 -0000
Subject: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
In-Reply-To: <8qrlfi+flq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qs0tl+2bd6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2312

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Firstly I do not think Ron will die.
> 
> However I predict something far worse happening to Ron. Yes, you 
> guessed it, the one thing worse than death.
> 
> Voldemort is everywhere and to protect Harry, Ron has become his 
> secret keeper. After all who does Harry trust more?  Ron is sick of 
> being overshadowed by his family and is friends.  Then, because 
Harry 
> is in hiding he gets the chance to become seeker for the Gryf. 
> Quidditch team (or something to this effect.)  Everything is going 
> fine for Ron,(finally getting some attention) and someone that he 
> trusts wants to know where the location of Harry.  
> 
> Ron is reluctant to give this info but, after all it IS a person 
that 
> he trusts...It is only after it is to late that he relises that he 
> has betrayed Harry. 
> 
> Unable to accept that he has betrayed Harry he rushes to his side, 
> which (and this is stretching it) is in (hmmm) Dumbledore's office. 
> To get there he uses a special floo powder and only has enough to 
get 
> there and leave once, and for one person.  
> 
> When he arrives the Dementors are closing in on Harry, enveloping 
him 
> in their power and Harry is at the time Wandless (Now that is 
REALLY 
> stretching it but please keep reading), Ron tries desperately to 
> create a patronus but his efforts are in vain.  Unable to think of 
> another solution he throws the floo powder to Harry and tells him 
to 
> leave. Harry doesn't know what to do but Ron reaffirms that Harry 
> must leave, and therefore Ron takes the kiss that was meant for 
> Harry, the ultimate sacrifice of friendship....
> 
> *sniff*,*sniff* oh, maybe this won't happen, just the thought makes 
> you choked up (or at least it makes me that way).
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Scott


I don't think Ron will be made a secret keeper. Too obvious. He would 
be one of 2 persons the Dark Side would stalk first, the other of 
course being Hermione. And I've said before, he is loyal no doubt but 
Ron's emotionally not very stable, prone to outbursts, many sensitive 
areas... 

It would seem logical that if need be, the secret keeper should be 
none other than Dumbledore whom You-Know-Who's scared off. In fact, 
did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility 
Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he 
consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?

Gen






From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 05:59:07 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (Snuffles Macgoo)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 05:59:07 GMT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF timing
Message-ID: <F17s49W3MoPwU1PChTY000062ba@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2313


 >  But they were sent up by Fleur and Krum (well, Cedric on Krum's behalf)
who
 >  needed rescuing from the maze

True...I agree.
Now that would argue against the audience and/or judges viewing the
proceeding magically somehow. Why would a signal have to be sent up if the
judges presumably could see something was wrong?
So therefore I still think that Harry and Cedric weren't missed, unless
Dumbledore thought the tournament was taking an unusually long time to
finish and a champion to appear.

judy

No, reaching a bit, but why not? - surely it was up to the Champions to 
decide when they needed resucing, its a test of mettle amoungst other things 
- and so there would be no interferance until help was requested - and - 
this lends wait to the 'they could see what was going on theory' because if 
they got really badly hurt (unconsious or dead) they woun't have been able 
to send up sparkes but they still would have needed rescuing. I can't see in 
the new improved safer triwizard championship that this would not have been 
considered. Which leads me to wonder about how faux Moody got away with 
lurking - hiding under the 12 ft hedge I guess.


storm

Press: What do you call that hairstyle?
George Harrison: Arthur
Press: How do you stand in the draft?
John Lennon: About 5'11"





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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Sep 27 06:03:55 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:03:55 -0000
Subject: artwork
Message-ID: <8qs2kb+pks6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2314

Hey Shawn (dogspoon)--

You're quite an artist.  Very nicely done.  Your interpretations of 
the characters are intriguing.  I don't think Snape could look more 
evil, and that dementor-- wonderfully creepy.  Good work!

Kelley




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 07:42:57 2000
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam  Brown)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:57 -0000
Subject: GoF timing
In-Reply-To: <F17s49W3MoPwU1PChTY000062ba@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8qs8e1+r9oq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2315

> Which leads me to wonder about how faux Moody got away with 
> lurking - hiding under the 12 ft hedge I guess.

Faux Moody was never actually in the maze (at least, not the way I 
interpreted it). He said something like he was prowling along the 
outside using his magic eye to see through the hedges and send curses 
etc to eliminate Cedric, Fleur and Krum.

Does the 'see-through' eye give anyone else the heebie-jeebies, btw? 
After all we know that the eye can see through clothes. I think that 
Lavender/Parvati (can't remember which) is spot on when she says she 
thinks the eye is creepy. I agree with her!





From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Wed Sep 27 12:32:54 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:32:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
References: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com> <39D10B0B.7BDC319B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000927133254.1A61.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2316

On 26.09.2000 at 15:46:04 Amanda Lewanski wrote:

><begin quote, Voldemort is speaking>
>His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly
provided him
>with a protection I admit I had not forseen . . . I could not touch
the
>boy...
><slight snip>
>his mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice . . . This is
old
>magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . .
.
><end quote>
>
>This seems to undermine our theories that Lily worked up some sort
of charm,
>doesn't it? If what she did was not a conscious act on her part, but
is
>recognized for what it was (whatever it was) by both Voldemort and
>Dumbledore, maybe we're back to the love/blood kin thing.

Possible, or maybe Voldemort just couldn't admit to himself that he
was outsmarted by a young muggle-born witch. 

Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Wed Sep 27 12:32:54 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:32:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Miss Figg (Was a comment....)
References: <8qnp3s+flvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000927133254.17A9.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2317

On 25.09.2000 at 14:57:00 Steve Vander Ark wrote:

>The whole Mrs. Figg question is one of my favorite HP mysteries. 
>Check out the Puzzles, Red Herrings, and Mysteries page of the Harry 
>Potter Lexicon for a list of comments and talking points about her, 
>including some of those supposedly insignificant lines about her
>that 
>could suggest something very significant indeed. 

A great website for people like me who start to forget the details
ten minutes after putting down the books. 
There's one insignificant fact that stuck in my mind, though. When
Harry explores Diagon Alley on his own in the beginning of PoA he
notices that the wizard apothecary smell like cabbage, just like Mrs.
Figgs house. Perhaps she is a witch who specializes in potions.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 12:02:17 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:02:17 EDT
Subject: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
Message-ID: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2318


In a message dated 9/27/00 4:48:41 AM, 

>From: xerxes <xerxes909 at excite.com>


>Now that would argue against the audience and/or judges viewing the
>proceeding magically somehow. Why would a signal have to be sent up if
>the
>judges presumably could see something was wrong?

>judy


One possibility, an arguement for viewing,  is that a champion could LOOK or 
even BE in trouble, and might still pull off a last-minute save. The judges 
would not interfere unless the champion signaled for help, or perhaps was 
obviously unconscious and in immediate danger. 
Aylihael



From SHENmagic at aol.com  Wed Sep 27 12:06:31 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:06:31 EDT
Subject: URL for HP Lexicon
Message-ID: <e0.a3874ad.27033cc7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2319


In a message dated  25.09.2000 at 14:57:00 Steve Vander Ark wrote:
>
>>The whole Mrs. Figg question is one of my favorite HP mysteries. 
>>Check out the Puzzles, Red Herrings, and Mysteries page of the Harry 
>>Potter Lexicon for a list of comments and talking points about her, 

URL, please?



From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 27 12:05:20 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:05:20 -0500
Subject: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
References: <8qrq43+2qtg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D1E280.7AE96F36@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2320

Hi --

Susan McGee wrote:

> I DO think Hermione has indicated feelings for Ron. She finally
> confronts his jealousy by suggesting he ask her out more quickly next
> time.

We don't know what Ron said to her before Harry entered the common
room.  We're limited by Harry's POV.  Depending on what Ron said, it
could make her reply take on several different meanings.  If he said to
her what he did at the Ball -- "By going with Krum, you betrayed
Hogwarts & Harry in particular," then her response of "Well, if you
don't like it, you should have asked me before someone else & not as a
last resort" takes on a far less personal meaning.  In that case, she's
saying, "Fine.  If you think it's betrayal of Hogwarts, then great.  You
should have asked me earlier yourself.  You only asked me as a last
resort yourself you know."

I'll also point out that just because she's angry at his confrontation
of her does NOT mean she likes him back.


> She is QUITE annoyed when he succumbs to the Fleur/veela allure.

She's just annoyed because Ron is exhibiting rather boorish typical
adolescent boy behavior.  She'd have the same response if she saw
Neville swooning over Fleur.  She's furious in a general feminist sort
of way.  IMO, this is not necessarily personal.

> Harry indicates STRONGLY that Hermione is NOT his girlfriend. There
> is NO indication that he will change his feelings,

True enough that he has no feelings yet.  But, he's ONLY 14.  As I said
yesterday, he's only recently discovered girls are pretty.  He doesn't
know enough yet to know that being pretty might not be enough to base a
lifetime commitment on.  He's got plenty of time yet to think about
Hermione.  JKR herself said this in an interview (something about him
not dating Ginny or Hermione in Book 4, but he's only 14 so he's got
plenty of time left to change his mind).

> yet there are lots of indicators that both Hermione and Ron are
> already interested in each other.

Lots of indicators Ron is interested in Hermione.  Not so many
indicators she's interested in Ron (IMO).

> Harry cares for Hermione as a good friend, but it's
> his "wheezy" who he would miss the most.

I will NEVER buy the argument that Harry cares for Ron more than
Hermione.  That completely undermines the Trio's friendship if you start
down that path.  And, there is simply NO evidence that he cares less for
her.  He feels a special male bond with Ron, but he's only 14.  He's
probably already realized the worth of Hermione's loyalty by the end of
GoF.  *She* was the only one to stick by him in a rough spot, and I
don't doubt that he knows that.

> Ron and Hermione have always spatted in the tradition of adolescent
> crushes

I've never understood why this is supposed to indicate that they will
have the perfect romantic relationship.  Those "cute endearing little
spats" could turn into some very ugly & bitter arguments that won't be
the least bit cute when Ron's insecurities & jealousies are triggered by
Hermione's successes.

> But most tellingly, they become "oddly formal" with each other.

Of course, they do.  Lots of people do this immediately after they've
had a fight with someone.  It takes a bit of time to reestablish
friendly ground again.

> I can't wait for the next book to watch their blossoming romance
> continue....

Farmer in the Dell, Farmer in the Dell . . . heigh ho the derry o, the
Farmer in the Dell.  . . . .

I agree with Cassandra's post last night about why Hermione is just not
right for Ron.  There's just no way she can be the right partner for
him.  She is not a background figure.  If *anyone* needs a rather meek &
background figure as a romantic partner, it's Ron (not Harry as in
H/G).  Ron's personality has been sketched out enough for us to know him
as a very jealous person with tons of insecurities & sensitivities &
prone to outbursts.  Does this really sound like a match made in heaven
when you stack up what we know about his personality with what we know
about Hermione's personality?  I just don't see the basis for a
long-term relationship.  Even if they do date, I don't know *why*
everyone assumes it *will* last once they get together.

I still think people are focusing on the obvious surface-level text of
Ron's crush on Hermione & (a) transferring reciprocal feelings back to
Hermione, and (b) ignoring the fact that they are fundamentally
incompatible in the long-run.

And, it would be way too obvious for JKR to do a Ron/Herm romance.  Does
she ever do the expected?  That's why I still think it's Farmer in the
Dell as far as the canon is concerned.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 14:06:55 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:06:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H/H and why it's just wrong
References: <200009261440.e8QEejo22054@ccpl.carr.org> <39D107C9.DA0CE496@hic.net>
Message-ID: <001801c0288c$32145660$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2321

Why???????  Are you jealous of the current dating
partner/spouse/romantic interest of every person you've ever had a crush
on or dated?  People do get over lost loves.  They don't always retain
the friendship with that person, but when they do retain the friendship,
it's generally because they're able to put their past romantic interest
& subsequent break-up, problems, jealousies, etc. aside.

I'm very happy for some of my former romantic interests . . . . and
there's not even a hint of jealous feeling on my part when I see them
happy with another person.


This is my experience as well, Penny.  There are several of my x's out there, one of which I will discuss.  I was with the man three years, quite seriously.  We started running into some major relationship conflicts (one of which was I was placed on Paxil, which messed ME up, another was he had amnesia due to a succession of seizures in November), and the engagement died out in May.  In June through September, we had a strained relationship due to outside forces (the father of my son, his (soon-to-be wife) whom Bear loved, etc... pure Days of our Lives things).  When I discovered my pregnancy, and Bear finally got with Angel (two things about 4 monthes apart, Bear became on of the best friends I could have had.  We are still friends over three years later--and he is still with Angel, (Mike's wife from the above sentence).  Btw, Mike and Angel AREN'T friends!  Bear on the other hand is the godfather of my son.

It does work that way sometimes.  (And, if this has confused you, don't worry.  Those of us who lived it are confused too!)

LOL
Dee



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep 27 13:51:51 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi tandy)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:51:51 -0000
Subject: slytherin evil
Message-ID: <8qsu1n+fh0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2322

In the car on the way to work this morning, I was listening to GoF - 
the first At Hogwarts chapter (and oh, how I LOVE Jim Dale's song!) - 
and was struck by one of the lines, in light of the recent discussion 
of Hagrid's comment in Book 1 that all the dark wizards came from 
Slytherin.
In GoF, Harry thinks to himself, as the first Slytherin is sorted, 
something like "Wonder if he knows that Slytherin has produced more 
dark witches and wizards than any other house..." which makes me 
think that yes, other houses produced dark witches & wizards and 
Harry knows it, despite what Hagrid said that day so many years 
before...






From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:01:47 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:01:47 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <8qrt8i+afau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qsukb+ro92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2323

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> >What's wrong with Snape being a SOB just because he's a SOB? 
> 
> Because he wouldn't be very interesting then.

I must respectfully disagree. You don't get many characters like 
Snape -- a throughly nasty person who's (as far as we know) on the 
side of the Light; a "good guy" who's not "good."

ht

P.S. I haven't read any of the Dragonlance books, so I can't compare 
him to that Raistlin (sp?) character people were talking about.






From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 14:15:37 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:15:37 -0000
Subject: GoF Ch12  Discussion
In-Reply-To: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJKEMLCHAA.DRecla@msn.com>
Message-ID: <8qsve9+6lk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2324


> Questions
> How old is Peeves?  Most of his actions appear to be that of a 
child.

Peeves is a poltergeist. Poltergeists are noisy spirits that throw 
things, hide things, takes things, disturb peoplem, etc. and Peeves 
excels at that. Among the paranormal experts, poltergeists are not 
considered "ghosts". 

> Colin and Dennis are Muggle born brothers, is this fact important?

Probably. 

> How did Moody arrive at Hogwarts?

I guess he arrived via broomstick or perhaps he apparated in 
Hogsmeade and walked to the school, since you can't apparate inside 
the grounds of Hogswart.

> Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating in 
activities
> they can not legally do?

Hee hee hee, I remember being 4 or 5 years old and sitting in my 
cardboard box "car" complete with a cardboard steering wheel and a 
sponge acelerator pedal. ;-)




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 14:13:44 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:13:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2325

S
P
O
I
L
E
R


SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:

> One possibility, an arguement for viewing,  is that a champion could LOOK or
> even BE in trouble, and might still pull off a last-minute save. The judges
> would not interfere unless the champion signaled for help, or perhaps was
> obviously unconscious and in immediate danger.

This is what I had thought. They did say that extra security measures were in
place at this tournament to avoid the high death toll. I imagine not everyone
was magically "watching", just one or more judges, and that they were not to
interfere unless it was just this sort of situation, where a champion in peril
could not signal.

I base this on the rapidity with which people were there after Harry and Cedric
reappeared. Yes, a judge would have come in for Fleur and Viktor, but not the
crowd of folks that were apparently there when Harry and Cedric got back. I
don't think they had enough time to search the whole maze and realize that they
were missing. I think something alerted them the minute Harry and Cedric
disappeared, and a whole mess of people consquently went in immediately. Who
couldn't do anything *but* wait, since there would have been no trace of where
they'd gone.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 14:20:32 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:20:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
References: <8qs0tl+2bd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2022F.3BE5137F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2326

Gen wrote:

> did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility
> Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he
> consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?

Dumbledore offered. In book 3, ch 10, McGonagall says she remembers that
Dumbledore offered, because he was sure someone close to the Potters was a
Voldmort informant, but that James insisted on using Sirius, and "told
Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were."

--Amanda




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:25:09 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:25:09 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man 
Message-ID: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2327

Somebody asked why just before Lilly Potter was killed Voldemore 
yelled "get out of the way" when she tried to protect Harry? Why 
didn't he just blast everyone in sight? Why did he later say that she 
didn't have to die? It's pure speculation on my part but perhaps the 
reason is that even Voldemore would hesitate just a bit before he 
murdered his own daughter. The reason he never said anything about 
this in Goblet Of Fire is that he didn't want his death eaters to 
know that Harry Potter was his grandson, he probably wasn't very 
proud of having a daughter who's a mudblood either. Yes I know, both 
of Lilly's parents are supposed to be muggles, but a line or two 
about a foster father would fix that little difficulty.  




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 14:25:38 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:25:38 -0000
Subject: fantasizing about prequels
In-Reply-To: <8qrr08+mvrm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt012+f16g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2328

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
> Wouldn't it be fascinating if JKR decided to do a prequel about
> the Marauders at Hogwarts?

That would be interesting but something tells me the Marauders will 
be discussed more in the coming books. 




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 27 14:26:22 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:26:22 -0000
Subject: URL for HP Lexicon
In-Reply-To: <e0.a3874ad.27033cc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qt02e+qhks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2329

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, SHENmagic at a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated  25.09.2000 at 14:57:00 Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> >
> >>The whole Mrs. Figg question is one of my favorite HP mysteries. 
> >>Check out the Puzzles, Red Herrings, and Mysteries page of the 
Harry 
> >>Potter Lexicon for a list of comments and talking points about 
her, 
> 
> URL, please?

Sorry, the URL is always in my tag line, so I didn't repeat it. Also, 
I give the URL for the main page, not internal pages, so you register 
on my hit counter, and I show that to my wife as a way of justifying 
all the time I put into it  :)

You'll find the Lexicon at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon.

BTW, I'm working over the Hogwarts section, the lists of people, and 
adding pages for specific characters right now. Shawn has given me 
permission to include his artwork on my pages, too. There's always 
something new...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 14:31:03 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:31:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yet another Snape Theory
References: <8qrt8i+afau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D204A7.3AE3D1D7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2330

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> >What's wrong with Snape being a SOB just because he's a SOB?
>
> Because he wouldn't be very interesting then.

Au contraire. "Bad guys," by which I mean "black" or "gray" characters,
usually with a capital-P Past, are almost always the most interesting and
developed characters. They're more complex and less predictable. I'm tired,
I'm not stating this very well, but even from the start of literature as we
know it, characters with complex moral shading and diverse motives are lots
more fun to read (and write) about, and quite a lot of the time they're
SOBs. Even in Milton, Satan and his motivation and reasoning are the most
interesting to analyze, and I doubt anyone would dispute *he* was an SOB....

--Amanda




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 27 14:39:35 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:39:35 -0000
Subject: URL for HP Lexicon
In-Reply-To: <e0.a3874ad.27033cc7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qt0r7+4pds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2331

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, SHENmagic at a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated  25.09.2000 at 14:57:00 Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> >
> >>The whole Mrs. Figg question is one of my favorite HP mysteries. 
> >>Check out the Puzzles, Red Herrings, and Mysteries page of the 
Harry 
> >>Potter Lexicon for a list of comments and talking points about 
her, 
> 
> URL, please?

Sorry, the URL is always in my tag line, so I didn't repeat it. Also, 
I give the URL for the main page, not internal pages, so you register 
on my hit counter, and I show that to my wife as a way of justifying 
all the time I put into it  :)

You'll find the Lexicon at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon.

BTW, I'm working over the Hogwarts section, the lists of people, and 
adding pages for specific characters right now. Shawn has given me 
permission to include his artwork on my pages, too. There's always 
something new...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 14:40:11 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:40:11 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt0sb+4ose@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2332

See if V. was Harry's grandpa, I think he would have rubbed it in 
Harry's face by now...especially in CoS when Harry was having doubts 
of his Gryffindorness. Also, Dumbledore told Harry that V. was the 
last relative of Slytherin. If Harry is V's grandson, that would mean 
either Dumbledore is lying to Harry (which is something that he 
hasn't done yet) or Dumbledore is plain clueless.

Although it would be very reminicent of the Greek Myth, Perseus if V 
was Harry's grandpa. Perseus' grandfather heard a prophecy that his 
grandson would kill him so he tossed his daughter into the sea to 
kill her (I'm really summarizing this). Anyway, daughter survies and 
Persues becomes a hero. One day he is throwing a discus and it hits 
an old man..yep, his grandpa...killing him.


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> Somebody asked why just before Lilly Potter was killed Voldemore 
> yelled "get out of the way" when she tried to protect Harry? Why 
> didn't he just blast everyone in sight? Why did he later say that 
she 
> didn't have to die? It's pure speculation on my part but perhaps 
the 
> reason is that even Voldemore would hesitate just a bit before he 
> murdered his own daughter. The reason he never said anything about 
> this in Goblet Of Fire is that he didn't want his death eaters to 
> know that Harry Potter was his grandson, he probably wasn't very 
> proud of having a daughter who's a mudblood either. Yes I know, 
both 
> of Lilly's parents are supposed to be muggles, but a line or two 
> about a foster father would fix that little difficulty.




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 14:39:57 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:39:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch12  Discussion
References: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJKEMLCHAA.DRecla@msn.com>
Message-ID: <39D206BC.C8EB8BC8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2333

Diann Recla wrote:

> How old is Peeves?  Most of his actions appear to be that of a child.

I presume this question means "how old was Peeves when he died." But this brings
up a related question---to take a page from Dumbledore, is "poltergeist" what
you are or what you choose to be? Can any irritating ghost be a poltergeist, or
are they a separate class of spirits? Was Peeves once a living person named
Peeves, or are poltergeists *not* standard "afterlife issue" ghosts? And is this
point relevant (I've no idea)?

> How did Moody arrive at Hogwarts?

My guess is he Apparated to the boundaries of Hogwarts, and walked the rest of
the way. Yeah, he was dry, but maybe he was late because he had to do the magic
equivalent of change clothes (dryspell?) or something.

> Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating in activities
> they can not legally do?

Do you have children?

--Amanda




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Sep 27 14:42:58 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 27 Sep 2000 07:42:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yet another Snape Theory
Message-ID: <20000927144258.18887.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2334

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20000927/a1ad99ed/attachment.ksh>

From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 27 14:50:20 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:50:20 -0000
Subject: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
In-Reply-To: <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qt1fc+b170@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2335

re: nobody really sees what's going on...

And for that, they gave up an entire year of Quidditch. *sigh*

As an teacher myself, I find Hogwarts to be sorely lacking in quality 
of education. Dumbledore is a nice guy and all, but he doesn't know 
how to run a school...

OTOH, it's supposed to be something of a commentary on stereotypical 
English boarding school life, right? ;)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 14:51:59 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:51:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemore the family man
References: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2098E.85FBD3C6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2336

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Somebody asked why just before Lilly Potter was killed Voldemore
> yelled "get out of the way" when she tried to protect Harry? Why
> didn't he just blast everyone in sight?

Oh, probably because by that time, the fact that anyone would oppose him
face-to-face was probably a novelty, and made him mad. It's part of crushing
your enemies to make them do what you say, before (or sometimes whether) you
kill them.

> Why did he later say that she didn't have to die?

I'm in the "because he's evil and said it to be mean to Harry" school, so
far.

> It's pure speculation on my part but perhaps the
> reason is that even Voldemore would hesitate just a bit before he
> murdered his own daughter.

I doubt that, even if she were his daughter (which I also doubt). I'm
putting Voldemort in the class of Shaka Zulu (in the movie, don't know if
this is fact), who killed his son to keep him from ever taking the throne
away from himself.

> The reason he never said anything about
> this in Goblet Of Fire is that he didn't want his death eaters to
> know that Harry Potter was his grandson, he probably wasn't very
> proud of having a daughter who's a mudblood either.

But if she's his daughter, she's not a mudblood. Clearly, for wizard-world
purposes, it's heredity over environment.

*And* I just thought that Voldemort's ego is such that he'd trumpet the
relationship to the skies, as an explanation---the only thing strong enough
to overcome me, was my own blood! See how potent it is? Etc., you get the
idea. Not even counting how much fun it would be to torment Harry with the
relationship.

--Amanda




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 27 15:08:09 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:08:09 -0500
Subject: Voldemort as Father/Grandfather of one of the Potters
Message-ID: <39D20D59.88B263D2@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2337

Hi --

I've been meaning to weigh in on this topic.  Amanda's post earlier
reminded me --

Voldemort cannot be the father or grandfather of any of the Potters.
Voldemort has no descendants according to Dumbledore.  In CoS, he told
Harry that "Voldemort is the last remaining descendant of Slytherin."
Putting aside age differences & the chronology, it simply isn't possible
for him to have fathered any children who survived if we believe
Dumbledore.  That raises the whole ancestor v descendent debate -- was
the reference to "last remaining ancestor" in some versions of CoS a
mistake?  An editorial goof?  But, *if* you assume that it was an
editorial goof and that Dumbledore did intend to say that Voldemort is
the last remaining *descendant* of Slytherin, then it's obvious that
Voldemort has no descendants himself.  Even if you think about
"remaining" and say that well, Lily & James are dead & so he could have
fathered either of them & still be the last remaining descendant of
Slytherin, you have to account for Harry (who would then be the a
remaining descendant as well).  So . . . Voldemort has no children &
certainly can't be the father or grandfather of any of the Potters.

Penny




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 15:12:51 2000
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:12:51 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
In-Reply-To: <39D1E280.7AE96F36@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qt2pj+7g63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2338

I know I'm running the risk of a *me too* post here, but...> 
> 
> > She is QUITE annoyed when he succumbs to the Fleur/veela allure.

> She's just annoyed because Ron is exhibiting rather boorish typical
> adolescent boy behavior.  She'd have the same response if she saw
> Neville swooning over Fleur.  She's furious in a general feminist 
sort of way.  IMO, this is not necessarily personal.

I agree. It's Harry she yanks back into his chair during the World 
Quidditch cup when the veela induce him to try to jump out, not Ron. 
She looks furious after the second task when Fleur kisses Ron--and 
Harry. I'm not using this as evidence to bolster any particular 
theory that she likes Harry, just that she she has a tendency to get 
annoyed when either of her two best friends, who happen to be male, 
exhibit typical adolescent boy behavior around Fleur. 

> 
> > Harry cares for Hermione as a good friend, but it's
> > his "wheezy" who he would miss the most.
> 
> I will NEVER buy the argument that Harry cares for Ron more than
> Hermione.  

Me neither. (There, that wasn't a 'me too'! that was a 'me neither!')
I will certainly buy that Harry appreciates Ron and Hermione in 
different ways, but not that he cares for one of them more than the 
other. That would invalidate, in my opinion, what we know of their 
friendship.
> 
> > Ron and Hermione have always spatted in the tradition of 
adolescent crushes
> 
> I've never understood why this is supposed to indicate that they 
will  have the perfect romantic relationship.  Those "cute endearing 
little  spats" could turn into some very ugly & bitter arguments that 
won't be  the least bit cute when Ron's insecurities & jealousies are 
triggered by  Hermione's successes.

They aren't even all that cute and endearing at the moment. At one 
point in GoF, Harry takes refuge in the empty owlery just to get away 
from Ron and Hermione's sniping. To me, that just sounds depressing 
and is an indicator of why their relationship wouldn't work. I stick 
to my original point that if a Ron/Hermione relationship is ever 
going to succeed, Ron needs to be given some area in which he can 
excel, stand out, and feel proud first. Be it Quidditch or chess (as 
Peg and I both suggested earlier); it hardly matters. At the moment 
he's a tightly-wound ball of insecurities living in the shadow of his 
famous brothers and friend. A girlfriend who is brilliant, sucessful, 
and Head Girl (just guessing here)would just compound the problem.

cassie




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 15:30:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:30:26 -0000
Subject: GoF Ch12  Discussion
In-Reply-To: <39D206BC.C8EB8BC8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qt3qi+9cff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2339

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
iun response to what Diann Recla wrote:
> 
> > How old is Peeves?  Most of his actions appear to be that of a 
child.

> Can any irritating ghost be a 
poltergeist, or
> are they a separate class of spirits? Was Peeves once a living 
person named
> Peeves, or are poltergeists *not* standard "afterlife issue"
ghosts? 
And is this
> point relevant (I've no idea)?

Poltergeists are 'noisy ghosts' but ghosts in this sense are
'spirits' 
and not necessarily among the 'spirits of the departed'.  I.e. they 
could be 'denizens of the spirit realm' who are already there.


> > How did Moody arrive at Hogwarts?
> 
> My guess is he Apparated to the boundaries of Hogwarts, and walked 
the rest of
> the way. Yeah, he was dry, but maybe he was late because he had to 
do the magic
> equivalent of change clothes (dryspell?) or something.

Well, ISTR a water-repelling charm somewhere as a typical wizard 
development - not necessarily in HP, but it would fit.  The rain kind 
of slides past you without actually hitting you.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 15:35:29 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:35:29 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
In-Reply-To: <8qt2pj+7g63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt441+e94q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2340

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, cassandraclaire73 at y... wrote:

> > > Ron and Hermione have always spatted in the tradition of 
> adolescent crushes
> > 
> > I've never understood why this is supposed to indicate that they 
> will  have the perfect romantic relationship.  Those "cute
endearing 
> little  spats" could turn into some very ugly & bitter arguments 


On the other hand, I keep thinking of Shasta and the Calormen girl in 
_The Horse and His Boy_, who 'continued to argue as they grew up and 
eventually got married so as to be able do so more conveniently'.  I 
even know a real-life couple whom I sometimes think did that.....

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 15:37:24 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:37:24 -0000
Subject: DTWOF COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC was Re: various small HP factoids (OT)
In-Reply-To: <8qrrfs+6v5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt47k+f98b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2341

>>>In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books 
at 
> > > > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the 
> > > Gargantuan 
> > > > Royalty Check*.  

Hmmm - was this before or after Dave Barry had essentially the same 
thing?




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 16:11:57 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:11:57 -0000
Subject: Exclusive Movie Set Pics
Message-ID: <8qt68d+p461@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2342

Just got this from a friend.

http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?story=2568

-Milz




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 16:13:30 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:13:30 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <8qt0sb+4ose@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt6ba+3964@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2343

"milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:

>See if V. was Harry's grandpa, I think he would have rubbed it in 
>Harry's face by now...especially in CoS when Harry was having 
>doubts of his Gryffindorness.

Impossible. In Chamber of Secrets we were dealing with a 16 year old 
Tom Riddle, or the memory of him, the only things Tom knew about 
Harry is what Ginny told him in the diary. 

>Also, Dumbledore told Harry that V. was the  last relative of 
>Slytherin. If Harry is V's grandson, that would mean either 
>Dumbledore is lying to Harry (which is something that he 
>hasn't done yet)

How do you know? And it would be a lot to lay on a little boy who 
already has more than enough to worry about. Remember he's still only 
14!

>or Dumbledore is plain clueless.

Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, he's
Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school. 
 





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 16:45:46 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:45:46 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <8qt6ba+3964@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qt87q+4e6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2344

Perhaps not in CoS, but maybe in GoF, V. would have rubbed it in 
Harry's face. It would be a big blow to Harry to find out the V. was 
his grandpa. Perhaps maybe big enough that Harry would not want to 
kill V. in a confrontation? Perhaps it would be a big enough blow to 
Harry that he would stop his wizarding studies so he wouldn't have 
the skills if he were tempted to follow in grandpa's footsteps? 

As for Dumbledore being truthful with Harry, Dumbledore does answer 
Harry's questions truthfully. He was forthcoming in regards to his 
answers about Snape in GoF. I think that if V. was Harry's grandpa, 
it would be revelant enough and important enough for Dumbldore to 
inform Harry. Moreover in GoF, Dumbledore was the one who over-ruled 
McGonagall's wishes that Harry not hear Barty Crouch's 
confession...Dumbledore basically told her Harry had to be told. It 
seems odd to me that Dumbledore would let Harry hear Barty Crouch's 
confession and his falling out with Fudge, then would still hide that 
V. is his grandpa. It doesn't fit the pattern. And he could have 
prevented Harry from hearing the Fudge fall-out but simply asking 
Fudge to go to his office.

Perhaps Dumbledore is clueless about Lily's or even James' family 
history. But in the years since the Potters' deaths and Harry's 
survival, I would think that Dumbldore has tried to figure out WHY 
Harry survived and WHY  V. would want to kill Harry along with his 
parents. In the first book, Dumbledore lets on that when Harry is 
older he'll understand why V. wanted to kill him too. That makes me 
think Dumbledore has already figured out the reason. Again, with 
Voldemort on the loose again, it makes no sense for Dumbldore to hide 
that V and Harry are related if that is the case.

But then...I could be completely wrong because I'm not the author ;-) 
and I 'm clueless as to what she has planned for the next books. But 
it's fun speculating isn't it?
 

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> >See if V. was Harry's grandpa, I think he would have rubbed it in 
> >Harry's face by now...especially in CoS when Harry was having 
> >doubts of his Gryffindorness.
> 
> Impossible. In Chamber of Secrets we were dealing with a 16 year 
old 
> Tom Riddle, or the memory of him, the only things Tom knew about 
> Harry is what Ginny told him in the diary. 
> 
> >Also, Dumbledore told Harry that V. was the  last relative of 
> >Slytherin. If Harry is V's grandson, that would mean either 
> >Dumbledore is lying to Harry (which is something that he 
> >hasn't done yet)
> 
> How do you know? And it would be a lot to lay on a little boy who 
> already has more than enough to worry about. Remember he's still 
only 
> 14!
> 
> >or Dumbledore is plain clueless.
> 
> Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, 
he's
> Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school.




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:25:20 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:25:20 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <8qt87q+4e6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qtai0+u5ut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2345

"milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:

> Perhaps not in CoS, but maybe in GoF, V. would have rubbed it in 
> Harry's face. It would be a big blow to Harry to find out the V.   
> was his grandpa.

But an even larger blow to the Death Eaters. And it might be 
embarrassing to publicly admit to all his followers that Lilly's 
mother was a muggle and that he had a mudblood daughter. 







From hilary_tamar at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:36:49 2000
From: hilary_tamar at hotmail.com (ht )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:36:49 -0000
Subject: Yet another Snape Theory
In-Reply-To: <39D204A7.3AE3D1D7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qtb7h+rip7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2346

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Au contraire. "Bad guys," by which I mean "black" or "gray" 
characters,
> usually with a capital-P Past, are almost always the most 
interesting and
> developed characters. They're more complex and less predictable. 
I'm tired,
> I'm not stating this very well, but even from the start of 
literature as we
> know it, characters with complex moral shading and diverse motives 
are lots
> more fun to read (and write) about, and quite a lot of the time 
they're
> SOBs. Even in Milton, Satan and his motivation and reasoning are 
the most
> interesting to analyze, and I doubt anyone would dispute *he* was 
an SOB....
> 
Which is what I was trying to say, except Amanda is much more 
articulate.

To reduce it to a simple phrase, "Moral ambiguity rules OK." <g>

ht




From linsenma at hic.net  Wed Sep 27 17:43:12 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:43:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemore the family man
References: <8qtai0+u5ut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D231B0.93E4855E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2347

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> But an even larger blow to the Death Eaters. And it might be
> embarrassing to publicly admit to all his followers that Lilly's
> mother was a muggle and that he had a mudblood daughter.

He cannot have a mudblood son or daughter -- he doesn't have any living
descendants.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 16:45:40 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:45:40 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline ( Was Voldemore the family man)
References: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com> <39D2098E.85FBD3C6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <013801c028ab$596b5960$9c3963c3@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2348


----- Original Message -----
Eggplant and Amanda said:

> > The reason he never said anything about
> > this in Goblet Of Fire is that he didn't want his death eaters to
> > know that Harry Potter was his grandson, he probably wasn't very
> > proud of having a daughter who's a mudblood either.
>
> But if she's his daughter, she's not a mudblood. Clearly, for wizard-world
> purposes, it's heredity over environment.

Amanda's just prompted me to ask something that's been bugging me for ages
about how purity of blood is judged.  Obviously, there are the three
categories that we've heard of: muggle born (not mudblood, please! ;-) ),
half-blood and pure-blood, which I understand, but would there be degrees of
half-bloodedness?

If your parents are, at the most basic level, a witch and a wizard,
regardless of birth, does that make you a pure-blood?  Harry's parents are a
muggle-born witch, and, AFAWK, a pure-blood wizard, whereas Seamus is
definitely half and half because he says so, despite being a wizard, as his
father is a muggle; does this make Harry a pure blood, being descended from
a witch and wizard, or something like, say, a 3 quarter blood?  Not that
purity of blood matters in itself, but if Harry was not considered to have
sufficient wizarding ancestors to make himself a pure-blood, surely that
would put Voldemort on shaky ground with his own policies of purity of the
gene pool?

Alix




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 18:06:08 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:06:08 -0000
Subject: More Banned books stories
Message-ID: <8qtcug+u1vh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2349

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/26/banned.books/index.html

To me, one of the most peculiar past book banning attempts was a 
request in the 1930's or 1940's to ban the Tarzan books from a 
library on the basis that Tarzan and Jane were not married, but 
'living in sin'.  Sorry - the wedding is in the last chapter of the 
second book, _The Return of Tarzan_.

-Brooks




From particle at urbanet.ch  Wed Sep 27 18:17:33 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:17:33 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline ( Was Voldemore the family man)
References: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com> <39D2098E.85FBD3C6@texas.net> <013801c028ab$596b5960$9c3963c3@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00c701c028af$35300060$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2350

> If your parents are, at the most basic level, a witch and a wizard,
> regardless of birth, does that make you a pure-blood?  Harry's parents are
a
> muggle-born witch, and, AFAWK, a pure-blood wizard, whereas Seamus is
> definitely half and half because he says so, despite being a wizard, as
his
> father is a muggle; does this make Harry a pure blood, being descended
from
> a witch and wizard, or something like, say, a 3 quarter blood?  Not that
> purity of blood matters in itself, but if Harry was not considered to have
> sufficient wizarding ancestors to make himself a pure-blood, surely that
> would put Voldemort on shaky ground with his own policies of purity of the
> gene pool?

Hitler was a short, ugly, brown-haired, brown-eyed man who claimed that
tall, handsome, blue-eyed blond people were the superior human race. But he
had charisma. Thus, we had World War II.

It's perfectly possible that Voldemort has enough of a hold upon his
followers that they wouldn't care...

On the other hand, while I can't really say how loyal Hitler's closest
advisors and the like were (someone more learned than me lend a helping
hand, please? ^_^), Voldemort's minions obviously aren't as loyal as he
wants them to be, so it's *also* possible that Voldemort never mentioned his
own purity of blood. So he could be hiding the truth about Harry's lineage
for his own protection. This would be assuming that Dumbledore is either
wrong or pulling an Obi-Wan on Harry...('Well, Voldemort's son [if one of
Harry's parents is a Riddle descendant, it would be James, IMHO], your
father, didn't uphold the Dark Lord's ideals, he rejected them and his true
parentage...so from a certain point of view, Harry, Voldemort *is* the last
living descendant of Slytherin.')

~Firebolt




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 27 18:49:33 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:49:33 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <8qqtf7+b8of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qtfft+tnjc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2351

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh 
> Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.  Here's a
> thought - maybe Voldy, in the attack, was blasted into the wherever 
> you are - 'between', a Pern reader might say - when you are 
> apparating, and you are neither at your departure point or your 
> destination.  There he could not physically exist/get out, because 
of 
> all the changes he had undergone - the wand went with him - 
whatever 
> popped back out when Pettigrew re-created a body for him, brought 
the 
> wand with him.  


And why didn't Voldemort's clothes get brought back?




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 19:05:43 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:05:43 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <8qtfft+tnjc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qtge7+d7ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2352

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, jazzman4 at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> the whatever - homunculus, by my theory - spell to re-flesh 
> > Voldemort originally, the wand re-manifested itself.  Here's a
> > thought - maybe Voldy, in the attack, was blasted into the 

.....(snip)

.  There he could not physically exist/get out, because 
> of 
> > all the changes he had undergone - the wand went with him - 
> whatever 
> > popped back out when Pettigrew re-created a body for him, brought 
> the 
> > wand with him.  
> 
> 
> And why didn't Voldemort's clothes get brought back?

Remember, this is not the 'restore to full old body' at end of GoF, 
this is Voldy's-spirit-goes-to-Homunculus body ( or whatever, Hom. is 
just my theory) - at any rate, the creation of the 'Mini-Voldy' body, 
which Voldy is in, with wand, at the beginning of GoF, & which 
event therefore took place between PoA and GoF.  The clothes may well 
have popped back, but been (a) damaged in the blast where he 
disappeared, and (b) in any case, been much too large for the 
'Mini-Voldy' body.  For that matter, what Wormtail puts on him when
V. says "Robe me", may have indeed been those original clothes,which 
they kept around after he reincorporated as 'Mini-Voldy', if they 
were intact.  In practice, there is insufficient data to conclude one 
way or the other, just as we really cannot be sure what happened to 
Voldy's wand while he was non-corporeal - My theory now is that it 
discorporated with him and re-corporated when he was (as 'Mini-V'), 
versus the theory that the current wand is not his at all,which I 
think is stretching too far and makes things all the way back in Book 
I become red herrings.

-Brooks

-Brooks




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Wed Sep 27 19:14:56 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:14:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline ( Was Voldemore the family man)
References: <8qt005+4hq9@eGroups.com> <39D2098E.85FBD3C6@texas.net> <013801c028ab$596b5960$9c3963c3@oemcomputer> <00c701c028af$35300060$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <001201c028b7$39fa3900$955201d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2353


----- Original Message -----
From: Firebolt <particle at urbanet.ch>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline ( Was Voldemore the family
man)


> > If your parents are, at the most basic level, a witch and a wizard,
> > regardless of birth, does that make you a pure-blood?   Not that
> > purity of blood matters in itself, but if Harry was not considered to
have
> > sufficient wizarding ancestors to make himself a pure-blood, surely that
> > would put Voldemort on shaky ground with his own policies of purity of
the
> > gene pool?

> On the other hand, while I can't really say how loyal Hitler's closest
> advisors and the like were (someone more learned than me lend a helping
> hand, please? ^_^), Voldemort's minions obviously aren't as loyal as he
> wants them to be, so it's *also* possible that Voldemort never mentioned
his
> own purity of blood. So he could be hiding the truth about Harry's lineage
> for his own protection. This would be assuming that Dumbledore is either
> wrong or pulling an Obi-Wan on Harry...('Well, Voldemort's son [if one of
> Harry's parents is a Riddle descendant, it would be James, IMHO], your
> father, didn't uphold the Dark Lord's ideals, he rejected them and his
true
> parentage...so from a certain point of view, Harry, Voldemort *is* the
last
> living descendant of Slytherin.')

LOL - I could almost hear Sir Alec as I was reading.  Actually, the point I
was making wasn't one about Harry and Voldemort's lineage being linked (I
*knew* it wasn't a well worded message...), but a general question about how
far back muggle blood has to be in your family tree to be considered
pure-blood; Ernie Macmillan says that he can trace his wizarding ancestry
back 9 generations, suggesting that prior to that there was some muggle
ancestry, maybe?  The bit that really triggered my curiosity was in CoS
where Riddle is comparing the similarities between himself and Harry and he
calls them both halfbloods.  With a witch mother and a muggle father,
Voldemort is unequivocably a half-blood, but Harry has a witch, albeit
muggle born, mother, and a wizard father.  Not that it matters a jot, of
course, it's who you are, not what you are, that's important; just idle
curiosity.  I take your point about Hitler though...just one of the many
WWII parallels that run through these books...

Alix





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 27 19:43:40 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:43:40 -0000
Subject: Purity of Bloodline ( Was Voldemore the family man)
In-Reply-To: <001201c028b7$39fa3900$955201d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8qtilc+n4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2354


> ancestry, maybe?  The bit that really triggered my curiosity was in 
CoS
> where Riddle is comparing the similarities between himself and 
Harry and he
> calls them both halfbloods.  With a witch mother and a muggle 
father,
> Voldemort is unequivocably a half-blood, but Harry has a witch, 
albeit
> muggle born, mother, and a wizard father.  Not that it matters a 
jot, of
> course, it's who you are, not what you are, that's important; just 
idle
> curiosity.

Hagrid also confirmed that Harry is NOT considered a pure-blood when 
he said that he hoped Harry would win the Triwizard T. so that it 
would prove that you didn't have to be a pure-blood to be the best 
(or something like that...I don't have the books here with me). I was 
a bit surprised at that since I figured that if you have wizards for 
parents, you were NOT considered half-blood or whatever. But that 
shows what I know.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 27 19:46:36 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:46:36 -0000
Subject: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges (long)
In-Reply-To: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8qtiqs+28gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2355

Well, the problem seems to be, if people could see inside the maze, why 
didn't they know Harry was missing, or that Krum had used an illegal 
curse. And if they couldn't see inside the maze why in heck would they 
be out there watching? Of course we could just say it's poor plotting, 
but where's the fun in that? It could work like this.
	Hagrid, McGonagall, Moody and Flitwick patrol outside  the maze. 
ch. 31  p. 620
Moody uses his magical eye  (and probably the marauders map) to track 
the champions and make sure Harry reaches the cup first.  ch. 35 p. 627
There is a one hundred yard sightline to the Triwizard cup ch. 31, p. 
631 
(Presumably the judges and the people in the stands can see what is 
happening to it.)
 Ludo is doing commentary, which no one inside the maze can hear. ch. 
31, p.621
Cedric sends up sparks to get help for Krum. ch. 31 p.  627
Now to speculate:
when the sparks fly,
Moody and the other patrollers enter the maze. They discover that  
Fleur and Krum have been attacked, evidently by Harry and/or Cedric. 
The attacks themselves were concealed by the hedges.  The patrollers 
notify the judges, decoying Dumbledore, Maxime and Karkaroff away from 
the judges box, leaving Fudge and Bagman on their own.
	Then Moody slips away on some pretext, puts on the invisibility 
cloak and sneaks out of the maze, still monitoring Harry's progress 
with the map. When Harry and Cedric vanish,  Moody puts the confundus 
curse on  Fudge and Bagman to keep them  from realizing that anything 
is amiss. Ludo's commentary  to the crowd accounts for Harry and 
Cedric's absence. ("They'll be joining us here shortly.")
	When the  resurrected Voldemort summons the death eaters, 
Karkaroff, Moody, and Snape all feel the dark mark burn.  Snape rushes 
to find  Dumbledore and report. At that point Dumbledore realizes that 
the dragon dung has seriously hit the windmill, but he does not yet 
know that Harry is missing.
	Dumbledore's first move is, as it has been in the past, to 
evacuate the students. As he  returns to the judges' box to arrange 
this,  Karkaroff makes his escape. Madame Maxime sees to  Fleur and her 
other students.  Moody, watching on the map, takes  the confundus curse 
off Fudge and Bagman just before Dumbledor arrives. Moody then 
reappears and calmly awaits developments, expecting no doubt the 
imminent arrival of Lord V. and the DEs (could be a good band name). 
Just as Fudge, Dumbledore and Bagman come to the horrified realization 
that Harry and Cedric are missing, Harry and Cedric return. JKR takes 
it from there.
Please feel free to pick holes in this!
	Pippin, who has spent way too much time working this out.





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep 27 19:50:41 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:50:41 -0000
Subject: The Marauders Map (Re: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges (long))
In-Reply-To: <8qtiqs+28gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qtj2h+rc2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2356

Speaking of the map, what happened to it? Did Harry get it back? Or 
is it safely in Dumbledore's office. 

-Milz

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Well, the problem seems to be, if people could see inside the maze, 
why 
> didn't they know Harry was missing, or that Krum had used an 
illegal 
> curse. And if they couldn't see inside the maze why in heck would 
they 
> be out there watching? Of course we could just say it's poor 
plotting, 
> but where's the fun in that? It could work like this.
> 	Hagrid, McGonagall, Moody and Flitwick patrol outside  the 
maze. 
> ch. 31  p. 620
> Moody uses his magical eye  (and probably the marauders map) to 
track 
> the champions and make sure Harry reaches the cup first.  ch. 35 p. 
627
> There is a one hundred yard sightline to the Triwizard cup ch. 31, 
p. 
> 631 
> (Presumably the judges and the people in the stands can see what is 
> happening to it.)
>  Ludo is doing commentary, which no one inside the maze can hear. 
ch. 
> 31, p.621
> Cedric sends up sparks to get help for Krum. ch. 31 p.  627
> Now to speculate:
> when the sparks fly,
> Moody and the other patrollers enter the maze. They discover that  
> Fleur and Krum have been attacked, evidently by Harry and/or 
Cedric. 
> The attacks themselves were concealed by the hedges.  The 
patrollers 
> notify the judges, decoying Dumbledore, Maxime and Karkaroff away 
from 
> the judges box, leaving Fudge and Bagman on their own.
> 	Then Moody slips away on some pretext, puts on the 
invisibility 
> cloak and sneaks out of the maze, still monitoring Harry's progress 
> with the map. When Harry and Cedric vanish,  Moody puts the 
confundus 
> curse on  Fudge and Bagman to keep them  from realizing that 
anything 
> is amiss. Ludo's commentary  to the crowd accounts for Harry and 
> Cedric's absence. ("They'll be joining us here shortly.")
> 	When the  resurrected Voldemort summons the death eaters, 
> Karkaroff, Moody, and Snape all feel the dark mark burn.  Snape 
rushes 
> to find  Dumbledore and report. At that point Dumbledore realizes 
that 
> the dragon dung has seriously hit the windmill, but he does not yet 
> know that Harry is missing.
> 	Dumbledore's first move is, as it has been in the past, to 
> evacuate the students. As he  returns to the judges' box to arrange 
> this,  Karkaroff makes his escape. Madame Maxime sees to  Fleur and 
her 
> other students.  Moody, watching on the map, takes  the confundus 
curse 
> off Fudge and Bagman just before Dumbledor arrives. Moody then 
> reappears and calmly awaits developments, expecting no doubt the 
> imminent arrival of Lord V. and the DEs (could be a good band 
name). 
> Just as Fudge, Dumbledore and Bagman come to the horrified 
realization 
> that Harry and Cedric are missing, Harry and Cedric return. JKR 
takes 
> it from there.
> Please feel free to pick holes in this!
> 	Pippin, who has spent way too much time working this out.




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 20:06:51 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:06:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DTWOF COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC was Re: various small HP  factoids (OT)
References: <8qt47k+f98b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2535A.257EFEC8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2357

Brooks R wrote:

> >>>In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books
> at
> > > > > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the
> > > > Gargantuan
> > > > > Royalty Check*.
>
> Hmmm - was this before or after Dave Barry had essentially the same
> thing?

I already asked that; since Dave Barry's column was so recent, we kind of
concluded he borrowed the title and added another.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 20:13:40 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:13:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Exclusive Movie Set Pics
References: <8qt68d+p461@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D254F4.F65DB215@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2358

milz wrote:

> Just got this from a friend.
>
> http://www.empireonline.co.uk/news/news.asp?story=2568

Well, I think they must have been doing test flights for angles with a
different owl, because I'll bet the house that's a barn owl. (A) not white
(B) big ol' round feather-disk areas around the eyes (term escapes me,
sorry). We see a lot of the North American variety around here--they're
smaller, but same conformation. I think even immature snowy owls are, well,
snowy.

I don't think this is supposed to be Hedwig at all. She's not *at* Privet
Drive in book 1, is she? I bet this is part of the owl flurry, all over
England, at the start of the book. Because even Harry's first letter from
Hogwarts comes by Muggle post.

--Amanda




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed Sep 27 20:36:44 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:36:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline 
In-Reply-To: <013801c028ab$596b5960$9c3963c3@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEBACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2359

Alix wrote:
>>>>if Harry was not considered to have sufficient wizarding ancestors to
make himself a pure-blood, surely that would put Voldemort on shaky ground
with his own policies of purity of the gene pool?<<<<<<

AHA!  Perhaps this is the source of Dumbledore's "look of triumph" in GoF.
I would say that since Harry has SOME muggle blood from his maternal
grandparents, then the blood of muggles now flows through Voldemort's veins
as a result of his use of Harry's blood during the "re-birth" ceremony.
Voldemort may have unwittingly made himself part-muggle.  Good joke on him,
if so.

 We know from Hagrid that Lily was muggle-born.  He makes a point of saying
so when the whole "mudblood" prejudice concept was first introduced.  So we
can't argue that Lily & Petunia's parents were magic, and that Petunia is
just a squib, unless we learn sometime in the future that Lily and/or
Petunia were secretly adopted by muggles when they were children.  I don't
see this happening, because it would negate the whole effect that JKR seems
to be presenting, about the mistaken belief that purebloods are the only
"right" sort of magical folk.  We're harking back to parallels with Nazi
Germany and Hitler's pure Aryan blood policy, which of course proved utterly
wrong about the superiority of pure breeding.  Although selective breeding
seems to work for improvement in other animal species, in humans it seems to
have the wrong effect more often than an improvement.  Two brilliant
scientists are just as likely to produce a numbskull or a psychopath, as
they are to produce brilliant functional offspring.  And those two original
brilliant scientists are just as likely to have come from ordinary
parents -- the genius factor in humans is a very strange and random thing.
(whew!  sorry for rambling).

Of course, Harry's blood may NOT be flowing thru V's veins after all.  It
could be that the blood was simply an ingredient to be applied to the
external bath in the cauldron, and that the "thing" that was the embryonic
Lord V did not actually INGEST any of the cauldron's contents.  {{{sigh}}}}

As far as your last question goes, Alix (about how far back Muggle blood is
traced) -- bigotry varies according to region and upbringing.  There are
some areas of the USA where you are considered to be of the Negro race if
even ONE of your great-grandparents had Negro blood.  This is not considered
a good thing in those areas of the country.  Bigotry, pure and simple and
wrong.  On the other hand, many people BRAG about being 1/16th American
Indian ancestry.  Why it is considered intriguing to have a tiny bit of
Native American blood and NOT intriguing to have a tiny bit of
African-American blood is one of the great puzzles of the untutored brain.





From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 20:37:19 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:37:19 -0500
Subject: More Wand stuff
References: <8qtge7+d7ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D25A7E.BB29BF8E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2360

Brooks R wrote:

> My theory now is that it
> discorporated with him and re-corporated when he was (as 'Mini-V'),
> versus the theory that the current wand is not his at all,which I
> think is stretching too far and makes things all the way back in Book
> I become red herrings.

Who has proposed the latter? That the current wand isn't his? That's surely
the one thing we *can* be certain isn't right, since the wand he uses in the
duel with Harry spits out Harry's parents. I thought the other idea, besides
the 'went incorporate with its master' theory, was that some flunky of
Voldemort's (current favorite is Peter Pettigrew, right?) retrieved it from
the Potter house and stored it somehow or other. But however he got it, the
wand he's using does have to be his original one.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 20:46:56 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:46:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEBACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <39D25CBF.8C25F56A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2361

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> AHA!  Perhaps this is the source of Dumbledore's "look of triumph" in GoF.
> I would say that since Harry has SOME muggle blood from his maternal
> grandparents, then the blood of muggles now flows through Voldemort's veins
> as a result of his use of Harry's blood during the "re-birth" ceremony.
> Voldemort may have unwittingly made himself part-muggle.  Good joke on him,
> if so.

He's already half-Muggle, his father was a Muggle. He knows it.

--Amanda




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 21:03:04 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:03:04 -0000
Subject: Exclusive Movie Set Pics
In-Reply-To: <39D254F4.F65DB215@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qtna8+7u2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2362

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> milz wrote:

> I don't think this is supposed to be Hedwig at all. She's not *at* 
Privet
> Drive in book 1, is she? I bet this is part of the owl flurry, all 
over
> England, at the start of the book. 


Could be, because IIRC barn owls are specifically mentioned in the 
'owl flurry'.  However, Hedwig IS at Privet, for a bit in Book 
I, because Harry gets her for his birthday present from Hagrid when 
they go to Diagon Alley, and he lets her out at night to hunt,
because the reason Petunia doesn't want to come into Harry's (new) 
bedroom even to hoover/vacuum is her presence, and the remains of her 
meals.

-Brooks




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 21:10:16 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:10:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Exclusive Movie Set Pics
References: <8qtna8+7u2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D26238.361CFEE0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2363

Brooks R wrote:

> Could be, because IIRC barn owls are specifically mentioned in the
> 'owl flurry'.  However, Hedwig IS at Privet, for a bit in Book
> I, because Harry gets her for his birthday present from Hagrid when
> they go to Diagon Alley, and he lets her out at night to hunt,
> because the reason Petunia doesn't want to come into Harry's (new)
> bedroom even to hoover/vacuum is her presence, and the remains of her
> meals.

Whoops, yer right. But it still doesn't seem a large enough thing to be
filming; I bet they're not filming Hedwig, but generic owls.

--Amanda




From brooksar at indy.net  Wed Sep 27 21:13:26 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:13:26 -0000
Subject: More Wand stuff
In-Reply-To: <39D25A7E.BB29BF8E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qtntm+f3lg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2364

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Brooks R wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> > versus the theory that the current wand is not his at all,which I
> > think is stretching too far and makes things all the way back in 
Book
> > I become red herrings.
> 
> Who has proposed the latter? That the current wand isn't his? 

It's in a recent thread.

My cubemate, who is partway through GoF,  came up with an alternate 
explanation when I pointed this out this puzzle to her.  

She suggested that the wand might have been left at the Potter's 
house, picked up by the good guys (i.e. the cleanup crew who probably 
made the wreckage appear to be from a Muggle gas line explosion or 
somesuch), and put into safekeeping - perhaps even at Hogwarts.  
Quirrel might, under Voldy's possession, have got permission to 
examine it, and hid it somewhere to reclaim later,but was defeated; 
later, Pettigrew did reclaim it from hiding when Voldy told 
him where it was.  Of course, there is no evidence for this 
hypothesis either, but it works at least as well as the wand going 
into limbo with Voldy's spirit and coming back when he 
re-incorporated as 'Mini-Voldy'.

-Brooks




From editor at texas.net  Wed Sep 27 21:51:58 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:51:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Cup Seating
References: <8qt2pj+7g63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D26BFE.620E7D20@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2365

cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com wrote:

> I agree. It's Harry she yanks back into his chair during the World
> Quidditch cup when the veela induce him to try to jump out, not Ron.

I have now heard this particular incident mentioned enough that I looked
into it. Here's what I think, and it has nothing to do with preference and
everything to do with seating.

The party at the World Cup consisted of Arthur Weasley, his sons Ron, Percy,
Fred, George, and guests Harry and Hermione. They sat in the front row in
the Top Box, which contained two rows of about 20 chairs. Here's a seating
order I worked out (looking from above)

(row 1) Hm   Ha   Rn   AW   F/G  F/G   PW

(row 2) BC   Wi   M?   DM  M?  x   x   ....   LB  CF  officials

Hm--Hermione
Ha--Harry
Rn--Ron
AW--Arthur Weasley
F/G--Fred or George
PW--Percy Weasley
BC--Barty Crouch (invisible)
Wi--Winky
M?---a Malfoy parent
DM---Draco
x--a seat, who knows
LD--Ludo Bagman
CF--Cornelius Fudge

Okay. Here goes.

Start with Winky; her seat is stated. Winky was sitting in the second to
last seat at the end of the row behind them. I assume she's sitting next to
the invisible Barty Crouch, and I assume he's in the end seat, which just
makes more sense to me than having her in seat 2 and him in 3. The end of
the row, and Winky, "bracket" Barty so it's less likely someone will sit on
him by mistake, before Winky says she's saving the seat.

Ron and Hermione "spun around in their seats to get a better look," but
clearly the conversation is carried on from their seats. So she's pretty
close to them.

At the end of the book, when Barty's talking under the Veritaserum, he says
"I saw, in front of me, a wand sticking out of a boy's pocket." Remember
they're all dressed as Muggles, still; it was Harry's jacket pockets he
searched when he realized it was missing. Winky is tiny and has her eyes
covered up, anyway, since she's so scared; it would be easy for him to reach
over to a seat beside the one just in front of him.

The Malfoys sat in "three empty seats right behind Mr. Weasley," and Draco
sat in the middle. (however, as they "continued down the line to their
seats", they might be farther down).

After the veela dance, and Harry "wakes up", it says "Next to him, Ron was
frozen in an attitude...." , so Ron was next to Harry.

When Ron was absently shredding the shamrocks on his hat, again in the veela
aftermath, Mr. Weasley, "smiling slightly, leaned over to Ron and tugged the
hat out of his hands." So I put Mr. Weasley on Ron's other side. There's
only two rows, and the exchange with the Malfoys clearly puts Mr.Weasley on
the front one, so he's not leaning over from the back.

If we have an order of   [Ha] [Rn] [AW], the only logical place for Hermione
is on Harry's other side, so that Harry is sitting between them. And she is
next to Harry, for when Krum pulls the Wronski defensive feint, we see "
'They're going to crash!' screamed Hermione next to Harry."

I also put her at the end because it makes more sense for Arthur Weasley to
sit amongst his sons. He's already next to Ron, so I put Fred and George on
his other side, with Percy on the other end. Aside from Percy probably
wanting to be on the end of the line to shmooze, having him there to act as
the other "bracket" to the irrepressible twins is a good idea. It felt right
for Arthur to yell "And that, boys, is why you should never go for looks
alone!", when he was, in fact, pretty much surrounded by his boys.

So here, now, is the actual point I wanted to make. "She reached up and
pulled Harry back into his seat." Hermione didn't rise to get Harry, she
pulled him back as she was sitting. He was next to her. Ron was on Harry's
other side. She couldn't *reach* him. It had nothing to do with whom she
liked better. She's practical, Harry needed re-seating, and whoever was on
the other side of Ron (probably Arthur) would get Ron.

But just for fun, I went ahead and tried to work out the rest. Lucky you.

An alternate back row is

BC   Wi   x   BM   CF   M?   DM   M?   LB

With x an anonymous foreign official and BM the Bulgarian Minister, since
the Malfoys do "continue down the row" to their seats and Harry hears the
"gloomy voice" of the Bulgarian Minister behind him. But anybody's going to
sound "behind him" if a row is only 10 seats long.

Ludo Bagman's in back, someplace, because Fred and George scramble over
their seats to stand in front of him and demand payment.

Now wasn't that fun? Loads better than folding the load of laundry that's
probably done by now....

--Amanda




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:05:37 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:05:37 +0100
Subject: Ron
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEODCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <003501c028cf$1a05c160$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2366


> I think this is because that, even though Harry is the star of the show,
> people identify more closely with and like Ron more (a statement that is
> bound to provoke lots of comments). There always seems to be more of a
> reaction if people suggest Ron will die during the series than if it is
> suggested that Harry will end up kicking the bucket (this could be that
> people do not think that JKR could get away with killing Harry but Ron is
a
> different issue).

I never really warmed to Ron myself.  I mean, he's nice enough and very
sweet, but not my favourite character.  I prefer Hermione myself, even
though she's not so emotionally appealing.  I guess I identify with her,
plus she's the only really major female character so I feel I have to
support her.  And I've always favoured Mind over Heart.  Let's face it,
that's what Hermione and Ron represent in the triad.  Hermione is the
intellectual part, Ron is the emotional bit.  Don't know what Harry is, Soul
maybe.

Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:07:36 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:07:36 +0100
Subject: Ron
Message-ID: <003b01c028cf$613b6e40$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2367


> I never really warmed to Ron myself.  I mean, he's nice enough and very
> sweet, but not my favourite character.  I prefer Hermione myself, even
> though she's not so emotionally appealing.  I guess I identify with her,
> plus she's the only really major female character so I feel I have to
> support her.  And I've always favoured Mind over Heart.  Let's face it,
> that's what Hermione and Ron represent in the triad.  Hermione is the
> intellectual part, Ron is the emotional bit.  Don't know what Harry is,
Soul
> maybe.

This is also why I favour R/H as a relationship - Heart and Mind balance
each other out far more than Mind and Soul would.

Jinx




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 27 22:08:59 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:08:59 -0000
Subject: A bunch of misellaneous stuff
Message-ID: <8qtr5s+hhvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2368

I think Pippin's discussion of the line of sight in the hedges (2355) 
is about as complete and correct as we are going to get.  I agree 
that it would make sense for the cup itself to be in plain view of 
the crowd, but much of the rest of the maze ought to be hidden, 
otherwise 1) it would be too difficult for Crouch to sneak around and 
get rid of many of the obstacles, and 2) If Krum was seen using 
Cruciatus the judges would have intervened sooner.

<<But in the years since the Potters' deaths and Harry's 
survival, I would think that Dumbldore has tried to figure out WHY 
Harry survived and WHY  V. would want to kill Harry along with his 
parents>>  <<Voldemort cannot be the father or grandfather of any of 
the Potters. Voldemort has no descendants according to Dumbledore. In 
CoS, he told Harry that "Voldemort is the last remaining descendant 
of Slytherin." Putting aside age differences & the chronology, it 
simply isn't possible for him to have fathered any children who 
survived if we believe Dumbledore.>>
This is what I keep saying! It is virtually impossible that 
Dumbledore is lying about this, and almost as unlikely that he is 
just simply wrong, since he is probably the world's foremost expert 
on Voldemort.  He would have found out if Voldemort had had kids.
 
About what happened to Voldy's wand: I think we have established that 
he had to have had the wand when he killed Bertha Jorkins (since she 
was regurgitated along with Bryce and the Potters), so it can't have 
been reconstituted with him when Wormtail brought him back (I am 
talking about the first time, when he was in that snake/baby form).  
Wormtail was the only companion of Voldy's at this time, so it must 
have been Wormtail that brought it to him after escaping Hogwarts.  
But Wormtail could not have been carrying Voldy's wand with him in 
Animagus form for all these years (although I think it would have 
been physically possible for him to do so) or he would not have had 
to steal Ron's wand at the time he made said escape.  So, the wand 
had to have been hidden somewhere, and Wormtail would have had to 
retrieve it before meeting Voldy.  The only theories advanced so far 
that fit all the facts are: 1) Wormtail retrieved the wand from the 
Potters' house, hid it somewhere while he spent twelve years with the 
Weasleys, and then retrieved it after fleeing Hogwarts, or 2) Brooks' 
theory (2364) that the wand was being kept by the "good guys" but was 
stolen by Quirrell and hidden, then retrieved by Wormtail after Voldy 
told him where to look.

And now a new topic: what, exactly, is Arithmancy?  It's been 
mentioned a lot, but I don't remeber actually seeing what goes on in 
an Arithmancy class.  What do they study? Magical number theory?




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:22:17 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:22:17 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Ch12  Discussion
References: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJKEMLCHAA.DRecla@msn.com>
Message-ID: <007001c028d1$692ce640$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2369


> Colin and Dennis are Muggle born brothers, is this fact important?

It seems unusual for a Muggle family to produce two wizard sons.  Which
leads to my theory that they're not really true Muggle borns.

Think back to when Colin first arrives at Hogwarts in CoS and talks to
Harry.  He mentions his dad being relieved that all the odd things he does
are really magic.  He never at any stage mentions his mum.

My theory is that while Mr Creevey is a Muggle milkman, Mrs Creevey is a
witch.  Or rather, was.  I believe she may have died after Dennis was born,
and never told her husband what she was.  Hence both boys being wizards.

> Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating in
activities
> they can not legally do?

What sort of question is that??  Of course it is, when have underage
individuals NOT dreamed of being able to do stuff they're not allowed to do?
I know I did.  :)

Jinx





From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:27:47 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:27:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF timing
References: <14543519.970026586249.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>
Message-ID: <007701c028d2$2c2a8080$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2370


> Now that would argue against the audience and/or judges viewing the
> proceeding magically somehow. Why would a signal have to be sent up if the
> judges presumably could see something was wrong?

Another reason is that fake Moody was not sneaking around helping Harry, he
was an official at the task, keeping an eye on all the students and going in
to rescue anyone in trouble, along with Hagrid, McGonagall and Snape.  Hence
the judges would have been keeping an eye on him and would surely have
noticed him blasting obstacles out of the way unless he went about it very
very quietly.  Which is an option, I suppose.


Jinx




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Sep 27 22:11:35 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:11:35 +0100
Subject: Ron, chapter 12 (rule breaking) and JKR comments
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPFCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2371

Susan wrote: "Remember that Ron is a chess player in the CoS that is his
special strength...

Given that all the good wizards and witches are about to embark on a major
struggle against Voldemort, Malfoy et aliae, perhaps Ron will become the
strategist/general of the effort?"

I could never see Ron in this kind of role. I do not think he would have the
confidence to deal with people in the same way that he moves the chess
pieces around. I would see him more involved in the actual fight, instead of
trying to direct other people around.

Diann wrote: "Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating
in activities they can not legally do?"

The moment someone imposes rules concerning the actions of students in
schools (or people in general life) there will be some who will try and work
out how to try and get round or break the rules. I could also list things
such as underage drinking, going to see movies whose ratings you are not old
enough for and many other activities.


The following is from the BBC's online news pages.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_944000/944728.stm

The author of the phenomenally popular Harry Potter books has said she feels
some of her writing is unsuitable for young children.
In an exclusive interview with the BBC, she said the subject matter of the
books may be uncomfortable for six-year-olds.
She told BBC Radio Gloucestershire's Nigel Ballard: "I do think that, on
occasion, the material is not suitable for six-year-olds. But you can't stop
them reading it.
"I read things when I was very young that disturbed me but I don't think
that was a terribly bad thing.
"My parents never censored what I read so I wouldn't say don't read them to
a six-year-old, just be aware some of it does get uncomfortable."
Harry is young wizard who finds he has magical powers after his parents are
killed by a "dark wizard" called Voldemort.
She added: "I am dealing with evil - I am trying to examine what happens to
this community when a maniac tries to take over".

'Moral obligation'
Her books also deal with the "reality of how evil it is to take a human
life".
She said: "If you are going to write about those kinds of things you have a
moral obligation to show what that involves, not to prettify it or to
minimise it."
Her description of the books seem a long way from the cosy world of magic
and myths which many parents associate with the Harry Potter tales.
Her fame has brought problems as well as the many millions she is reputedly
now worth.
"When people start searching through your bins it is horrible. It feels like
such an invasion.
"I am not a politician, I am not an entertainer and I never expected this
much interest in my life."

Hollywood film
The books have sold in their millions world-wide, and the first book, Harry
Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, is now being made into a Hollywood film.
Many people have complimented Rowling for getting inside the mind of a
child, but this is something she denies.
"I sat down to write something I knew I would enjoy reading. I do not try to
analyse it and I don't write to a formula.
"I always find it quite patronising - 'what do children want?' - as if they
are a separate species. I do not write with an imaginary focus group of
eight year olds in mind."
Rowling, who grew up in Winterbourne, south Gloucestershire plans seven
Potter books in total and then wants to write something completely
different.
"Maybe I'll write something about an obscure medieval monk," she said.

JK Rowling is interviewed on BBC Radio Gloucestershire on Wednesday and
Thursday at 1430BST.
The full interview will be available on BBC News Online on Thursday.




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:33:38 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:33:38 +0100
Subject: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
References: <8qs0tl+2bd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008401c028d3$045eb520$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2372


> It would seem logical that if need be, the secret keeper should be
> none other than Dumbledore whom You-Know-Who's scared off. In fact,
> did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility
> Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he
> consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?

Reason one: again, he's too obvious.

Reason two: maybe he asked him, but Dumbledore refused to do it.

Reason three: maybe Dumbledore was the one performing the charm, because
he's best at performing them and trustworthy.  If so, he may not be able to
be Secret Keeper as well.


Jinx




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:46:18 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:46:18 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com> <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00bf01c028d4$c9b16d80$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2373


----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges


> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
>
> SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:
> I base this on the rapidity with which people were there after Harry and
Cedric
> reappeared. Yes, a judge would have come in for Fleur and Viktor, but not
the
> crowd of folks that were apparently there when Harry and Cedric got back.
I
> don't think they had enough time to search the whole maze and realize that
they
> were missing. I think something alerted them the minute Harry and Cedric
> disappeared, and a whole mess of people consquently went in immediately.
Who
> couldn't do anything *but* wait, since there would have been no trace of
where
> they'd gone.


OTOH it's never said that Harry and Cedric reappeared in the maze.  They
could have appeared outside it, in full view of the crowds.  Also remember
that once Cedric and Harry grasped the cup, the task ended and anyone could
enter the maze.  Maybe the whole maze disappeared when the cup was touched
or something.

Jinx





From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 22:53:53 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:53:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Ch12  Discussion
References: <8qt3qi+9cff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e001c028d5$d17625a0$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2374


> Well, ISTR a water-repelling charm somewhere as a typical wizard
> development - not necessarily in HP, but it would fit.  The rain kind
> of slides past you without actually hitting you.

Yes, it's in PoA.  Hermione uses it on Harry's glasses while he's trying to
play the Slytherins in the rain.

Jinx




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 27 22:54:40 2000
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:54:40 -0000
Subject: Purity of Bloodline
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEBACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qttrg+msr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2375

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
"AHA!  Perhaps this is the source of Dumbledore's "look of triumph" 
in GoF. I would say that since Harry has SOME muggle blood from his 
maternal grandparents, then the blood of muggles now flows through 
Voldemort's veins as a result of his use of Harry's blood during the 
"re-birth" ceremony.  Voldemort may have unwittingly made himself 
part-muggle.  Good joke on him, if so."

==============

That can't be it, Mary. He's already one-half muggle from day one 
through his hated father; Harry's blood was "purer" than Voldemort's 
already.  And if having a witch mother and wizard father doesn't make 
you pureblood, what does?  Are we into the wizarding version of the 
South African race laws, US Jim Crow laws, and Nazi Aryan laws? How 
far back must you go?

I think, though, that *somehow* Voldemort made his ultimate mistake 
when he took Harry's blood. Are their destinies bound together now? I 
hope not, for it could mean Harry is to die if Voldemort is to be 
killed. But somehow Voldemort took in the seeds of his final defeat 
with Harry's blood.





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Sep 27 23:15:33 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:15:33 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Cup Seating
Message-ID: <id.27092000191533.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 2376

I'm guessing it's a pretty safe bet that you enjoy and are rather good at logic puzzles, aren't you?

I have to admit that it makes perfect sense.  It also makes sense to have Harry in the middle bookended by Ron & Herm since he IS the focal point, after all.
--------------------------------------------------------------




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Sep 27 23:15:12 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:15:12 -0000
Subject: Voldy, the family man
Message-ID: <8qtv20+8s5r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2377

What about this guys?

We don't know if TR Sr. knew his wife was preg when he left her.  
Perhaps TR Jr. (or Vold) left a preg woman w/o knowing it too.  He 
would have been about thirty, and we don't know when he *became* 
Voldemort.  If so, this child could be James (possibly Lily).  So in 
theory Vold may not know he ever had a child, and thus, grandchild.  
Chances are excellent that Dumble wouldn't know this either.  So 
Dumble may have been telling Harry the truth, ~as he knew it~.  So 
far as he knew* Vold ~is~ Slyth's last heir.  James' mother would be 
the only one who knows the truth, and we have no idea about her.  
Then in CoS, when TR Jr comments about the likenesses between him and 
Harry, he's noticing this, but has no idea there's a reason for it.  
Can anyone think of any holes I'm missing here?  It would seem 
strange for JKR to mention the likenesses and not go anywhere with it.

Kelley 




From jinxster at cyberlass.com  Wed Sep 27 23:31:29 2000
From: jinxster at cyberlass.com (Jinx)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:31:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline 
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEBACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <010901c028db$130027a0$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>

No: HPFGUIDX 2378


> AHA!  Perhaps this is the source of Dumbledore's "look of triumph" in GoF.
> I would say that since Harry has SOME muggle blood from his maternal
> grandparents, then the blood of muggles now flows through Voldemort's
veins
> as a result of his use of Harry's blood during the "re-birth" ceremony.
> Voldemort may have unwittingly made himself part-muggle.  Good joke on
him,
> if so.

Voldemort already had muggle blood - his father was one.  Nothing new there.

Jinx




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 27 23:35:09 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:35:09 -0000
Subject: Harry's blood and Dumbledore's triumph
Message-ID: <8qu07d+37dp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2379

If the reincarnation spell requires "the flesh of a servant" and "the 
blood of an enemy", what happens if Pettigrew rebels and Harry gives up 
his hate?
Just wondering
Pippin





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 28 00:15:02 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:15:02 -0400
Subject: the most wonderful book
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39D28D86.901FD6E7@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2380

My husband & I both (separately) took English classes in college which dealt
with foldtales, fairy tales & myths - I mainly studdied Greek, Roman & Norse
mythology, whereas he ended up with a collection of books about folktales &
fairy tales from Russia, China, Scandinavia, Japan, India, Native American
tribes, Africa and of course Britain (we also have a Celt Folktales book too)
and today I finally took the time to flip thru the British Folktales book -
it was written by Katherine Briggs and even tho it's out of print you can
find it at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394739930/qid=970099713/sr=1-9/102-2076998-4651356
(sort of)

And here's what it talks about:
Big black dogs the size of bears (and shape shifting devil dogs)
Boggarts
Pixies
Dragons (in Linton, Longwitton and Wantley (are these places still around &
if so where?)
The Hand of Glory (remember Draco's shopping trip to Knockturn Alley?)
and a story about a witch who, when she died, was wrapped in a Stag's skin to
save her soul from the devil.
It certainly has more relevance to the HP books than Ms Schaffer's extensive
discourse on Greek & Roman mythology, and on a glance the stories are very
interesting - soem of Amazon's "Z" Shops seem to carry it for between 20 &
25$US, in case anyone else wants it.
And I am definitely incorporating some of this into the Magical Creatures FAQ
which I am currently working on...




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Sep 28 00:35:29 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:35:29 -0000
Subject: the most wonderful book
In-Reply-To: <39D28D86.901FD6E7@the-beach.net>
Message-ID: <8qu3oh+64mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2381

I can also recommend An Encyclopedia of Fairies,Hobgoblins, Brownies, 
Bogies and other Supernatural Creatures by Katherine Briggs, and for 
checking out the places, Albion, A Guide to Legendary Britain by 
Jennifer Westwood. Both of these are also out of print, alas





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:03:07 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:03:07 -0000
Subject: Secret keepers and cloaks, and bears, oh my...
In-Reply-To: <8qs0tl+2bd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qu5cb+sgor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2382

Why did James give him the cloak in the first place?  AND the safe 
key?  Did someone give the little family advance warning--Voldie's 
coming tonite, etc, and he sent them via Owl to AD?  In this muggle 
frame of thinking running parallel, would you have someone the 
checkbook out of your desk, even if you trusted them, if you thought 
you'd need it again later that week?


(Sorry if this sounds funny.  Writing zeros was sooo fun--I lost 
almost 200 posts and am reading them online since it's easier.... my 
mailbox hit 550 in two days of not getting online (not all due to 
computer).  My brain is 'jello'ing.)


:)
Dee

(Or is it 8-X)

> 
> It would seem logical that if need be, the secret keeper should be 
> none other than Dumbledore whom You-Know-Who's scared off. In fact, 
> did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility 
> Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he 
> consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?
> 
> Gen




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:10:39 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:10:39 -0000
Subject: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
In-Reply-To: <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qu5qf+btfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2383

Amanda, 
Why are you using the spoiler warnings?  I greatly appreciated them 
around July and August (THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!), but I must be a bit 
mentally slow tonite as to why use them now?

Thanks for answering this!
Dee




--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> 




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep 28 01:32:29 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:32:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges (long)
In-Reply-To: <8qtiqs+28gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEBBCDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2384

>>>the dragon dung has seriously hit the windmill<<<<

LOL!  This is a great line, Pippin!  







From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:30:46 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:30:46 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <8qt87q+4e6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qu706+7d8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2385

Ok, throwing in two galleons (inflation due to the inflated ego, lol)

Not that I aspire to this theory (below), but here's a way it could 
still fit in the storyline.  

Tom leaves school, entering the world of muggles/wizards as a horny 
teenager.  Seeing a woman who is hot, they go off, and (CENSORED).  
He and she go off in separate directions.  She discovers, gasp, I'm 
pregnant!  She of course approaches Tom, who snickers (trust me, seen 
enough of these types in my friends' relationships!) and says "Deal 
with it yourself," or something.  She's muggle, of course.  Another 
man comes along, and offers to marry her to avoid (insert current war 
here, was Korea happening in UK like it was in USA?  Or, if this 
happens in WW2, it fits too!) the draft!  (Don't joke--this happened 
to my family during Vietnam!)  She takes him up on it, the child 
carries the new-guy family name, and she has another daughter not 
long after (like 10-12 mos. apart, maybe?) after: Lily and Petunia.  
They continue to live their lives....as muggles.

Now, Mr. Tom, knowing that this child is his (say, Mommy was a 
virgin, maybe?), keeps tabs on the family from afar....(He still 
hates muggles, tho!)

Does this explain the situation?

:)
Dee









-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Perhaps not in CoS, but maybe in GoF, V. would have rubbed it in 
> Harry's face. It would be a big blow to Harry to find out the V. 
was 
> his grandpa. Perhaps maybe big enough that Harry would not want to 
> kill V. in a confrontation? Perhaps it would be a big enough blow 
to 
> Harry that he would stop his wizarding studies so he wouldn't have 
> the skills if he were tempted to follow in grandpa's footsteps? 
> 
> As for Dumbledore being truthful with Harry, Dumbledore does answer 
> Harry's questions truthfully. He was forthcoming in regards to his 
> answers about Snape in GoF. I think that if V. was Harry's grandpa, 
> it would be revelant enough and important enough for Dumbldore to 
> inform Harry. Moreover in GoF, Dumbledore was the one who over-
ruled 
> McGonagall's wishes that Harry not hear Barty Crouch's 
> confession...Dumbledore basically told her Harry had to be told. It 
> seems odd to me that Dumbledore would let Harry hear Barty Crouch's 
> confession and his falling out with Fudge, then would still hide 
that 
> V. is his grandpa. It doesn't fit the pattern. And he could have 
> prevented Harry from hearing the Fudge fall-out but simply asking 
> Fudge to go to his office.
> 
> Perhaps Dumbledore is clueless about Lily's or even James' family 
> history. But in the years since the Potters' deaths and Harry's 
> survival, I would think that Dumbldore has tried to figure out WHY 
> Harry survived and WHY  V. would want to kill Harry along with his 
> parents. In the first book, Dumbledore lets on that when Harry is 
> older he'll understand why V. wanted to kill him too. That makes me 
> think Dumbledore has already figured out the reason. Again, with 
> Voldemort on the loose again, it makes no sense for Dumbldore to 
hide 
> that V and Harry are related if that is the case.
> 
> But then...I could be completely wrong because I'm not the author ;-
) 
> and I 'm clueless as to what she has planned for the next books. 
But 
> it's fun speculating isn't it?
>  
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> > "milz " <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > >See if V. was Harry's grandpa, I think he would have rubbed it 
in 
> > >Harry's face by now...especially in CoS when Harry was having 
> > >doubts of his Gryffindorness.
> > 
> > Impossible. In Chamber of Secrets we were dealing with a 16 year 
> old 
> > Tom Riddle, or the memory of him, the only things Tom knew about 
> > Harry is what Ginny told him in the diary. 
> > 
> > >Also, Dumbledore told Harry that V. was the  last relative of 
> > >Slytherin. If Harry is V's grandson, that would mean either 
> > >Dumbledore is lying to Harry (which is something that he 
> > >hasn't done yet)
> > 
> > How do you know? And it would be a lot to lay on a little boy who 
> > already has more than enough to worry about. Remember he's still 
> only 
> > 14!
> > 
> > >or Dumbledore is plain clueless.
> > 
> > Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, 
> he's
> > Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school.




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 28 01:30:27 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:30:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Cup Seating
References: <8qt2pj+7g63@eGroups.com> <39D26BFE.620E7D20@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D29F33.C2043D05@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2386

Hi --

Wow Amanda!  I'm so impressed with your rendition of the World Cup
seating arrangements!  I felt like I was doing law school admission test
logic games again trying to follow your analysis (those were never my
strong suit), but I'm duly impressed.

I do agree with the seating arrangements you worked out -- it all seems
to fit, and you've certainly supported the seating with all the GoF
evidence.

> So here, now, is the actual point I wanted to make. "She reached up
> and
> pulled Harry back into his seat." Hermione didn't rise to get Harry,
> she
> pulled him back as she was sitting. He was next to her. Ron was on
> Harry's other side. She couldn't *reach* him. It had nothing to do
> with whom she liked better. She's practical, Harry needed re-seating,
> and whoever was on the other side of Ron (probably Arthur) would get
> Ron.

Well, you could be right here.  But, it's also possible in my mind that
she could have reached both boys if she wanted to.  Ron wouldn't have
been as out of reach as say the twins.  But, of course, she could remain
seated & yank Harry back down though -- as you said.  So, maybe it was
just laziness (or practicality as you said) on her part.  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:34:15 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:34:15 -0000
Subject: Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <39D231B0.93E4855E@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8qu76n+mec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2387

Penny, I am just adding two more galleons... Don't pillow-hit me?

Originally, you said the word was ancestor?  Now, if Voldie is 
grandpa, and the oldest of the chain, that would make him the oldest 
ancestor, right?  (Don't have book in front of me for quote from CoS)

That's assuming it isn't a typo--which if you use my theory--it 
isn't!  Harry would be the last descendant, but Tom would be the last 
ancestor!

Just a few more cents that I can ill afford!

Dee


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<linsenma at h...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> 
> > But an even larger blow to the Death Eaters. And it might be
> > embarrassing to publicly admit to all his followers that Lilly's
> > mother was a muggle and that he had a mudblood daughter.
> 
> He cannot have a mudblood son or daughter -- he doesn't have any 
living
> descendants.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 01:37:03 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Dee (Denise) R)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:37:03 -0000
Subject: Was Voldemore the family man
In-Reply-To: <00c701c028af$35300060$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8qu7bv+dg5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2388

Ack, I forgot to include the comments about AD!  Like I said the 
children both have the muggle father's last name, and perhaps AD 
wasn't Head at the time of birth?  He just didn't know!  Only three 
people knew--Mommy, Daddy, and Father.  To the rest of the world, 
Lily was Lily Muggle.







>This would be assuming that Dumbledore is either
> wrong or pulling an Obi-Wan on Harry...('Well, Voldemort's son [if 
one of
> Harry's parents is a Riddle descendant, it would be James, IMHO], 
your
> father, didn't uphold the Dark Lord's ideals, he rejected them and 
his true
> parentage...so from a certain point of view, Harry, Voldemort *is* 
the last
> living descendant of Slytherin.')
> 
> ~Firebolt




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep 28 01:46:31 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:46:31 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline
In-Reply-To: <39D25CBF.8C25F56A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEBICDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2389

Well, DUH on me!  You're absolutely right.  It's even MORE Hitler-like, with
the leaders of the pureblood movement, like Lucius Malfoy, are
servants/slaves to a leader who is half-Muggle.  Thanks Amanda, for the
poke -- sometimes I am so duuuuuumb!


-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Lewanski [mailto:editor at texas.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:47 PM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Purity of Bloodline


Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> AHA!  Perhaps this is the source of Dumbledore's "look of triumph" in GoF.
> I would say that since Harry has SOME muggle blood from his maternal
> grandparents, then the blood of muggles now flows through Voldemort's
veins
> as a result of his use of Harry's blood during the "re-birth" ceremony.
> Voldemort may have unwittingly made himself part-muggle.  Good joke on
him,
> if so.

He's already half-Muggle, his father was a Muggle. He knows it.

--Amanda



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 28 02:12:59 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:12:59 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter und der Feuerkelch !
Message-ID: <39D2A92B.9E56FD80@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2390

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3551551936/ref=gw_hp_rt_1_2/028-9911057-7644529



From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 02:24:56 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:24:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] World Cup Seating
References: <id.27092000191533.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <39D2ABF7.4FC631ED@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2391

voicelady wrote:

> I'm guessing it's a pretty safe bet that you enjoy and are rather good at logic puzzles, aren't you?

Actually, no. My nearest and dearest pretty unanimously consider me logically challenged. I'm never good at them and my brain freezes up--for instance, I
experienced MEGO in book 1 when Harry and Hermione got to Snape's barrier, with all the potions. [MEGO = My Eyes Glaze Over]. This was a fluke. I guess because
JKR wasn't trying to conceal anything, so it wasn't hard.

> I have to admit that it makes perfect sense.  It also makes sense to have Harry in the middle bookended by Ron & Herm since he IS the focal point, after all.

Well, yeah, and I thought Ron would probably sit by his dad, since they're a close family, and Harry would want to sit by Ron, which put Hermione on the other
side. I was actually finding support for a theory, more than working it out as a logic puzzle. But thank you for the compliment!

--Amanda "you can fool some of the people...."





From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 28 02:29:53 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:29:53 -0500
Subject: Voldemore the family man
References: <8qu76n+mec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2AD21.71DAF449@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2392

Hi --

"Dee (Denise) R" wrote:

> Originally, you said the word was ancestor?  Now, if Voldie is
> grandpa, and the oldest of the chain, that would make him the oldest
> ancestor, right?  (Don't have book in front of me for quote from
> CoS).  That's assuming it isn't a typo--which if you use my theory--it
>
> isn't!  Harry would be the last descendant, but Tom would be the last
> ancestor!

Actually, Dumbledore says in most CoS versions that Voldy is the last
remaining ancestor of Slytherin.  If true, this would mean that
Slytherin is Voldy's child, grandchild or great-grandchild, etc.  It
doesn't have anything to do with the relationship of Voldy to Harry.
It's only referencing the relationship between Voldy & Slytherin.

It makes far more sense for Voldy to be the last remaining *descendent*
of Salazar Slytherin.  Things will be very complicated if Voldy is
somehow Slytherin's ancestor.  You are right that if Voldy is
Slytherin's *ancestor,* then it is possible that Harry (and/or either of
his parents) *could* be a descendent of Slytherin (and thus Voldy).
But, there's not necessarily any evidence of a relationship between
Slytherin & either Lily or the male Potters.  It would just be plausible
if Voldy were somehow Slytherin's ancestor.

The "ancestor" reference is most likely a typo, although I do remain
disturbed by the way in which the "error" gets corrected & then
resurfaces in & out of various printings & versions of CoS.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 02:43:46 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:43:46 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore, Snape observations
Message-ID: <8qub92+nvra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2393

My 2 knuts on various recent threads.

I think that the reason why Dumbledore wasnt the Potters secretkeeper 
is that the good guys knew that Voldy was likely to go after the 
secretkeeper and torture him.  Sirius Black was willing to die to 
save his friends; he thought (mistakenly, of course) that Peter 
Pettigrew was too.  Dumbledore was too valuable a person, as head of 
the anti-Voldy army, to risk.

I think that the reason Snape hates Harry so much, aside from the 
fact that he hated James Potter, is because of Trewlaneys first 
prediction.  I have always thought that Trewlawneys first prediction 
was that Harry Potter would bring about Voldys downfall.  Snape 
really wanted to redeem himself by being the one to do this; he 
wanted the glory, the Order or Merlin First Class, the recognition 
that goes with being a hero.  Instead, he has to help the son of his 
least favorite person, who is famous while still a baby, stay alive 
long enough to destroy Voldy and become a far greater hero than Snape 
could ever hope to be.  (In addition I like the *he hated James 
because he was in love with and rejected by Lily* theory; it fits in 
well with my theory.)

-- Joywitch




From recla at magick.net  Thu Sep 28 02:43:43 2000
From: recla at magick.net (Diann Recla)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:43:43 -0700
Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_The_Dursley's?=
In-Reply-To: <001901c0217d$0da1a5a0$836a5ecf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJCENHCHAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2394

Uncle Vernon is the director of a drill manufacturing company.  He is an
over indulgent father who considers that his son is perfect.  He does not
like anything that is not what he considers normal.  He does not want anyone
to know that some of his wife's relatives are definitely not considered
normal.  He is also afraid of the witches and wizards - he bought a gun for
protection when they are hiding from the letters from Hogwarts.  Vernon
likes to think that he is important and feels the need to impress others.
His son is his blind spot.  He wants to blame Harry for everything that goes
wrong at home.
Why is Vernon so scared of the magic community?  Is it possible that Vernon
was related to the Riddles?

Aunt Marge is Vernon's sister.  She lives in the country breeding bulldogs.
There is no reason to believe that she was ever married.  She also indulges
Dudley while antagonizing Harry.  She does not stay with the Dursley's long
not wanting to leave her dogs.  She does bring her favorite (Ripper) with
her.  Ripper does not like Harry either.  Aunt Marge makes the mistake of
not only putting Harry down, but his parents also.  At this point Harry
turns Marge into a balloon.


 I don't know that Marge is a real factor in the series; she does show how
unpleasant and mean the family can be.

 Aunt Petunia is married to Vernon; she was Lily's sister (Harry's mother).
She is a nosy neighbor who wants to know everything the neighbors would like
to hide.  She is everything going on except in her own house.  There she
only sees what she wants to see.  She believes that Dudley is only large not
obese, that he is strong not a bully, that he is highly intelligent not
slow.  All these years later she is still mad that Lily went to Hogwarts.
She has said that Lily came back from that school doing all sorts of spells;
yet she pretends that she knows nothing about the world of magic.  We do not
know is she was the bossy older sister or the baby of the family who was no
longer the pet after Lily was found to be a witch.

 Who was older, Lily of Petunia?
How much knowledge does Petunia have of the magic world?

 Dudley Dursley is Vernon and Petunia's son, Harry's cousin.  He is obese, a
bully, and not very smart (remember in the first book when he counts his
presents then cannot add 2 more and know the total).   Dudley is allowed to
do whatever he wants while Harry is the unpaid help.


Is the overindulgence of his parents a form of abuse?  Dudley appears to
believe that he should always get his way.
Did Dudley learn anything from eating candy from Fred and George?



I am sure that there are many more questions to be answered.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Sep 28 02:56:22 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:56:22 -0000
Subject: Chronology
In-Reply-To: <8q58m2+1evi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8quc0m+6fv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2395

There's a basic chronology in the Club's Database area.  Feel free to 
contribute.


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Hi--
> 	Has any one put together a chronology of the books? I would 
love 
> to do this but  don't want to reinvent the wheel. Or do people 
think 
> this would unearth contradictions and spoil the magic.
> Pippin




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 28 03:03:21 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:03:21 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore as Headmaster
Message-ID: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2396

Here are a couple of recent list comments about Dumbledore:

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, he's
> Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> As an teacher myself, I find Hogwarts to be sorely lacking in quality
> of education. Dumbledore is a nice guy and all, but he doesn't know
> how to run a school...

Ya know, you're right, and it's bothering me.  Throughout the series,
Dumbledore is portrayed as wise, as knowing what's going on--although he
seems to let events sort of progress on their own rather than actively
shaping them.  We know Voldemort fears him, that Dumbledore has a good
deal of input with the Ministry of Magic.  And yet, yeah, there's stuff
going on at the school that doesn't seem right.  Is there some kind of
balance he's trying to maintain that we're only dimly aware of, which
forces him to make compromises we don't know about?  (e.g., in order to
keep the Slytherin house under control, he is forced by some obscure
magical rule to let someone teach potions who has a hooked nose.  Or
something).

I believe that Dumbledore is wise, and that he is earned the respect he
is given by the wizarding world (and the thwarted snarls behind his back
he gets from the Deatheaters).  So what's up with his bad faculty
picks?  Well, I suppose he can't be blamed for Barty Crouch, Jr.--he
hired someone else, after all.  But Gilderoy Lockhart?  Trelawney?
Snape?  Bad luck, distraction, or some other mysterious design?

Or maybe the teachers who are so terrible (Snape, Trelawney) were hired
by his predecessor and have tenure and he can't get rid of them?

(Do English/Scottish schools HAVE tenure?)

Peg




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 28 03:06:54 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:06:54 -0000
Subject: And now for something really depressing
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000926141200.027985c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <8qucke+1k37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2397

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> 
wrote:
Of course the other scenario that's cropped up
> (based on that story about the chess player that was killed by a 
rat) is> that Ron will try to murder Harry and Wormtail will kill Ron 
(and *that's*> how he'll save Harry).  I find that one *really* 
depressing.
>                                                  -- Dave

Does anyone know if there's a link where I can read this story?  
Where does it originate from?

Thanks,
Kelley




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 28 03:11:42 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:11:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
References: <8qt2pj+7g63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2B6EE.D48C9D51@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2398

I suppose this point has been made before, but I'll say it again.

They are FOURTEEN YEARS OLD.

I think it's just too early to make bets on whether Hermione will end up
with Harry or Ron.  I could find either pairing believable; as things stand
now, I might give a mild edge toward Ron.

But I think back to the way I was when I was 14.  I didn't fall in love the
first time until I was 18, and I was a TOTALLY different person by then.
(And alas, it didn't work out anyway--he was in love with somebody else, but
that's another story).

Their characters are still forming.  Yes, Ron is jealous and sometimes so
clueless that he needs to be hit on the head with a big brick.  Still, he
might be very different by the time he's 18.  Ditto Harry--he doesn't seem
to be focused on guy/girl relationships yet.  He's awkward and tongue-tied
around girls.  He's too young--but at 18, it might be a very different
story.

And Hermione might be prickly and moody and impatient now, but at 18--who
knows?

IT'S TOO SOON TO TELL.  Speculation is fun, but at this point, that's all it
is--speculation.

IMHO.

Peg




From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 28 03:19:24 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:19:24 -0500
Subject: Hand of Glory, and James' cloak and key
References: <970108284.1573@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D2B8BB.B73F2360@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2399

> The Hand of Glory (remember Draco's shopping trip to Knockturn Alley?)

Hands of Glory are uncommon but useful (dark) magical items; there is a
Hand of Glory story by Seabury Quinn, which I *think* is in one of his
Jules de Grandin stories (de Grandin is essentially a general-purpose
Abraham van Helsing/Private investigator, helping people who have run
into trouble with the supernatural.  They were published in _Weird
Tales_, i think, and I am rather fond of them).  (Quinn also wrote one
of the most moving, marvelous  stories that ever appeared in print,
called simply _Roads_, which was republished as a book by Arkham House
and is one of the most wonderful Christmas presents I ever received....
I need to find someone to read it aloud to, at some future Christmas.....)

Also, there is no need to assume James Potter *gave* Dumbledore the
Gringott's vault key; again that could have been something found in the
wreck of the house that Dumbledore took for safekeeping.  As for the
invisibility cloak, I suspect that James gave that to Dumbledore because
he no longer needed it, having perhaps himself learned the
self-invisibility spell.

-Brooks



From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Sep 28 04:55:28 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:55:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron
Message-ID: <v02140b1eb5f87f96747e@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2400


>I never really warmed to Ron myself.  I mean, he's nice enough and very
>sweet, but not my favourite character.  I prefer Hermione myself, even
>though she's not so emotionally appealing.  I guess I identify with her,
>plus she's the only really major female character so I feel I have to
>support her.  And I've always favoured Mind over Heart.  Let's face it,
>that's what Hermione and Ron represent in the triad.  Hermione is the
>intellectual part, Ron is the emotional bit.  Don't know what Harry is, Soul
>maybe.
>
>Jinx
>
I think in a lot of mythology that triad is often Heart, Head and Sword.
Soul works too.

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
***********************************************************





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 04:39:39 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:39:39 -0000
Subject: (OT) Creation Songs (was Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand)
In-Reply-To: <8qr6b3+se4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8qui2b+6cv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2401

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> > By the way, let's ask another question  - relating Narnia 
> (specifically, _The Magician's Nephew_), and the world as described
> in Tolkien's _The Silmarillion_.  Anybody else notice that both
> worlds come to be, in the same way - their Creator SINGS them into 
> existence?
> 
> -Brooks

Very good observation.  We've discussed the recurrence of phoenix 
song at climatic moments of the plot.  I'm too sleepy to think of the 
specific refs right now--but is anything *created* when any of this 
happens?

On a more personal level, my favorite metaphor for creation *is* a 
symphony, with a certain Master composer.  We often underestimate the 
power of music, don't we?

--Ebony (whose students unfortunate enough to have Muggle parents 
will read Lewis' *The Magician's Nephew* as a replacement)




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 04:49:59 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:49:59 EDT
Subject: Purity of Bloodline
Message-ID: <cc.a98633a.270427f7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2402


In a message dated Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:17:33 +0200
 "Firebolt" <particle at urbanet.ch>
writes:

>This would be assuming that Dumbledore is either
>wrong or pulling an Obi-Wan on Harry...('Well, Voldemort's son [if one
>of
>Harry's parents is a Riddle descendant, it would be James, IMHO],
>~Firebolt

James descended from Voldy makes the most sense, Firebolt, IMHO. JKR  has 
emphasized how much Harry physically resembles James, and similarities 
physically between Tom Riddle and Harry.  Been thinking about Harry and 
Lily's  green eyes, and the green light of the Avra Kadavra curse and 
wondering if there is a connection....



From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 04:56:51 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:56:51 -0000
Subject: Rowling's a slippery wench, or The Search for Voldemort's Wand
Message-ID: <8quj2j+22hf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2403

I've just re-read "Flesh, Blood and Bone," "The Death Eaters," and 
"Priori Incantatem" (chapters thirty-two through thirty-four, for 
those of you playing along at home), and I can't find anything more 
than circumstantial evidence to support my contention that the Priori 
Incantatem effect in Harry and Voldemort's duel was not the same 
phenomenon described by Dumbledore.  Dang it.

Well, I'm going to present what I've got anyway.

As you may recall, I've been espousing a theory for the last few
days, 
to the effect that it was Harry's innate power that caused the 
regurgitation of spells from Voldemort's wand, rather than the fact 
that two "brother" wands were being forced to duel (as described by 
Albus).  This theory has not been accorded the universal acclaim and 
acceptance that I've grown used to receiving whenever I bother to 
post. ;-)  Perhaps I should just try an Imperius curse on y'all. 
Double ;-)

Anyway, we see Wormtail using a wand a great deal from the time the 
Portkey arrives in the graveyard until Voldemort steps out of the 
cauldron.  He kills Cedric.  He conjures bonds onto Harry.  He lights 
a fire.  He disinters some bone dust from Tom Riddle's grave.  One 
presumes that he does some fancy wand twiddling while reciting his 
incantations, but this is not essential for establishing that
Wormtail is in possession of a wand.  Slippery Ms. Rowling never 
specifically shows us Wormtail with a wand again, so I can anticipate 
the argument that the same wand might have been Voldemort's.  I
agree, 
it MIGHT have been.  But the wand Voldemort duelled against Harry
with 
was the one he pulled out of a deep pocket of the robes Wormtail 
dressed him in.

Why would poor one-handed Peter Pettigrew go to the trouble of
putting the wand deep into the pocket of the robes he was about to 
place upon his resurrected master?  The text doesn't say he didn't, 
but neither does it say he did.  For that matter, HOW would he 
accomplish such a feat?  Once again, the text is silent on this
point, 
but I do note that the little wuss is in such agony over the loss of 
his appendage that he never makes a single move that has not been 
commanded by the Dark Lord.  I can't see him mustering the initiative 
to take the wand he's been using all night (which he knows Voldemort 
is going to be calling for), and shove it into the pocket of the 
robes.

If it can be established that Wormtail was not using the wand that 
Voldemort duelled against Harry with, then several other facts become 
apparent, chiefly this: Cedric Diggory's ghost had no business being 
Priori Incantatemed (to coin a phrase) from any wand but Wormtail's.  
Even if Voldemort has somehow had his original wand restored to him 
(by some mechanism I haven't been able to figure out), the presence
of Cedric's ghost in the detritus of the duel argues strongly against 
this being the Priori Incantatem effect as described in Chapter 
thirty-six.  Harry's power is perhaps causing the effect against 
Voldemort's master plan.

Of course, it could all turn out to be a meaningless oversight on J. 
K. Rowling's part...




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 05:17:42 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:17:42 -0000
Subject: More Wand stuff
In-Reply-To: <39D25A7E.BB29BF8E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8quk9m+929j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2404

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Brooks R wrote:
> 
> > My theory now is that it
> > discorporated with him and re-corporated when he was (as 
'Mini-V'),
> > versus the theory that the current wand is not his at all,which I
> > think is stretching too far and makes things all the way back in 
Book
> > I become red herrings.
> 
> Who has proposed the latter? That the current wand isn't his? 
> --Amanda

That would be me, Amanda.  I'm just not satisfied with any of the 
proposed theories as to how the wand got back into Voldemort's hands. 
 I could be wrong about this, of course, but I've also come up with 
another line of thinking to support Harry's power generating what 
looks like Priori Incantatem (but isn't), and this one does not
depend 
on Voldemort having a ringer wand.  See "Rowling's a Slippery Wench," 
 message 2403.

Yes, this is a double post, referencing the correct message this time.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 06:17:11 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:17:11 -0000
Subject: Purity of Bloodline
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEBACDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <8qunp7+n472@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2405

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> 
wrote:
"As far as your last question goes, Alix (about how far back Muggle 
blood is traced) -- bigotry varies according to region and 
upbringing.  There are some areas of the USA where you are considered 
to be of the Negro race if even ONE of your great-grandparents had 
Negro blood.  This is not considered a good thing in those areas of 
the country.  Bigotry, pure and simple and wrong.  On the other hand, 
many people BRAG about being 1/16th American Indian ancestry.  Why it 
is considered intriguing to have a tiny bit of Native American blood 
and NOT intriguing to have a tiny bit of African-American blood is 
one of the great puzzles of the untutored brain."

Good observation, Sister Mary.  One of the major themes in early 
African-American literature is the notion of "passing" into the 
dominant culture.  This occurred due to the negative implications of 
having African ancestry that continue to this day.  Not too long ago 
I dated another young colleague who is African American but looks 
Italian--interesting experience.  He told me that several of his 
family members are passing as "white".  In America.  In the year 2000.

The reasons for the prevalence of the "tragic mulatto" theme in these 
early writings are obvious.  Until a couple of generations ago, most 
members of the privileged class of African-American society had more 
European or Native American ancestry than African.  I'm not a 
sociologist, but I've noted from informal study that you see this 
theme in many postcolonial societies the world over that have dealt 
with the sociocultural obstacles inherent in integrating a class of  
persons who were systematically enslaved and subjugated into 
mainstream society.  Not a culture on this planet has fully overcome 
these obstacles yet.  Not even America.

This discussion of "purity of bloodlines" always brings to mind two 
questions with corresponding observations.  1)  Almost all of the 
normal blood I've ever seen is a shade of red--no matter who it comes 
from.  What exactly *is* pure blood?  3)  The notion of race is a 
relatively modern construct invented for a specific purpose.  What 
*is* race?

*This* is why I appreciate Orson Scott Card's novel *Pastwatch* so 
much.  He scratches the surface of an area of speculative fiction 
that has been largely ignored and does so with a sincerity *and* 
empathy that is rarely seen within the dominant culture.  Most of my 
own creative writing is either historical fiction or speculative 
fiction that negotiates these same questions.  I've *known* about the 
implications of race and culture all my life--my passion ever since I 
can remember has been a binary search for origins of and logical 
predictions regarding the above questions.

*This* is also why I'm not a Slytherin sympathizer.  Snape and Draco 
are fascinating to me from a writer's POV.  However, I must say that 
the canonical Draco is not one of my top five favorite HP 
characters.  I don't care *what* his reasons--by the end of GoF, he 
is 14/15 and still determined to follow in his father's bigoted 
footsteps.  My students do an excellent job juxtaposing Draco's anti-
Mudblood stance and their own cultural experiences.  The fact that 
they'll be doing HP this year right after *Number the Stars* should 
only heighten this effect.

--Ebony




From vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 28 05:44:24 2000
From: vivienne at caersidi.demon.co.uk (Vivienne O'Regan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:44:24 +0100
Subject: England Counties for Lori
Message-ID: <39D2DAB8.60910A52@caersidi.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2406

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:26:03 +0100 "Simon Branford"
<simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

>Yes. West Midlands is a county.
>Hereford and Worcester is I believe two counties but has been one 
>in its past (i.e. in the map I am using).
>Yorkshire is in fact 3 counties - North, South and West Yorkshire.
>Those were the only mistakes that I spotted.


As Pam Scruton has said the boundaries of English counties are moved
about seemingly on whim. Sussex is also designated as East & West.

West Midlands is where the city of Birmingham is located.

At some point in the past Coventry, was designated as being in West
Midlands making a rather odd sensation when you exit and enter
Warwickshire on entering and exiting Coventry.

However, this sort of government map redrawing is never particularly
welcomed by people living in such areas and colloquial names for 
regions, such as the 'Black Country' tend to stick. Plus, of course 
the motorway signs 'The Midlands', 'The North', 'The South', 'The 
South West'.

And lets not forget post codes much more confusing than America zip
codes. For example, Coventry, West Midlands and its surrounding
Warwickshire towns have 'CV' prefixed postcodes. However, other
Warwickshire & Staffordshire towns have a 'B' for Birmingham prefix 
code.


Vivienne




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 05:42:00 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:42:00 -0000
Subject: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
In-Reply-To: <008401c028d3$045eb520$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <8quln8+c5n7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2407

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jinx" <jinxster at c...> wrote:
> 
> > It would seem logical that if need be, the secret keeper should be
> > none other than Dumbledore whom You-Know-Who's scared off. In 
fact,
> > did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility
> > Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he
> > consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?
> 
> Reason one: again, he's too obvious.
> 
> Reason two: maybe he asked him, but Dumbledore refused to do it.
> 
> Reason three: maybe Dumbledore was the one performing the charm, 
because
> he's best at performing them and trustworthy.  If so, he may not be 
able to
> be Secret Keeper as well.

> Jinx

You may wish to reconsider reason three, with Dumbledore performing 
the charm, how would he not know about the last minute change in 
Secret Keepers?

I do agree, though, that Dumbledore would be spreading himself a bit 
thin to take on this responsibility, along with handling his other 
duties.  Besides, the plan was to have the Secret Keeper go into 
hiding, an option Dumbledore did not have.




From jazzman4 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 28 05:15:32 2000
From: jazzman4 at earthlink.net (jazzman4 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:15:32 -0000
Subject: More Wand stuff
In-Reply-To: <39D25A7E.BB29BF8E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8quk5k+13hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2408

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Brooks R wrote:
> 
> > My theory now is that it
> > discorporated with him and re-corporated when he was (as 
'Mini-V'),
> > versus the theory that the current wand is not his at all,which I
> > think is stretching too far and makes things all the way back in 
Book
> > I become red herrings.
> 
> Who has proposed the latter? That the current wand isn't his? 
> --Amanda

That would be me, Amanda.  I'm just not satisfied with any of the 
proposed theories as to how the wand got back into Voldemort's hands. 
 I could be wrong about this, of course, but I've also come up with 
another line of thinking to support Harry's power generating what 
looks like Priori Incantatem (but isn't), and this one does not
depend 
on Voldemort having a ringer wand.  See "Rowling's a Slippery Wench," 
 message 2043.




From xerxes909 at excite.com  Wed Sep 27 20:26:04 2000
From: xerxes909 at excite.com (xerxes)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges
Message-ID: <19769959.970086364268.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2409


>  
>  S
>  P
>  O
>  I
>  L
>  E
>  R
>  
>  
>  SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:
>  
>  > One possibility, an arguement for viewing,  is that a champion could
LOOK or
>  > even BE in trouble, and might still pull off a last-minute save. The
judges
>  > would not interfere unless the champion signaled for help, or perhaps
was
>  > obviously unconscious and in immediate danger.
>  
>  This is what I had thought. They did say that extra security measures
were in
>  place at this tournament to avoid the high death toll. I imagine not
everyone
>  was magically "watching", just one or more judges, and that they were not
to
>  interfere unless it was just this sort of situation, where a champion in
peril
>  could not signal.
>  
>  I base this on the rapidity with which people were there after Harry and
Cedric
>  reappeared. Yes, a judge would have come in for Fleur and Viktor, but not
the
>  crowd of folks that were apparently there when Harry and Cedric got back.
I
>  don't think they had enough time to search the whole maze and realize
that they
>  were missing. I think something alerted them the minute Harry and Cedric
>  disappeared, and a whole mess of people consquently went in immediately.
Who
>  couldn't do anything *but* wait, since there would have been no trace of
where
>  they'd gone.
>  
>  --Amanda


OK - that is logical. The reaction to Harry's reappearance WAS quite rapid
IIRC. Dumbledore seemed to be right there to turn Harry over.

Poor Dumbledore must have been beside himself with worry.

judy

  
  

***
Press: What do you call that hairstyle?
George Harrison: Arthur
Press: How do you stand in the draft?
John Lennon: About 5'11"





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html




From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 08:35:52 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Age/Tri-wizard tournament
Message-ID: <20000928083552.439.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2410

I'm back!  I finally gave up on catching up completely, and
deleted about 600 messages.  But in the past couple of days, I
have seen a few I wanted to answer.  This is the first.

Melanie the Ravenclawlady

--- Diann Recla <drecla at msn.com> wrote:

> Is it natural for underage students to dream of participating
> in activities they can not legally do?

Absolutely!  How many teens do everything they can (fake IDs
etc) to buy alcohol or sneak into adults-only clubs?  By the
time they are 21, it's same-old-same-old.

For Fred and George, it must've been doubly frustrating.  Ron
and Harry were far from their 17th birthdays, but F&G were
almost there.  In fact, they turned 17 in the course of the
tournament.

But, even without the forbidden fruit aspect, I think it
frustrated them to know that this would probably be the only
Tri-Wizard tournament during their time at Hogwarts. There isn't
"always next year," as there is for annual events, and it won't
"always be there" like alcohol or R-and-up-rated movies.

OK, it's late, but I hope this analogy makes sense.  I'd say the
closest muggle equivalent (to the Tri-Wizard tournament) these
days is the show "Survivor".  The other day, I was reading the
requirements to apply as a contestent (just out of curiosity;
I'd be *way* out of my element there!).  One of them was that
the applicant must be 21 as of a certain day.  Can you imagine
the frustration of someone whose 21st birthday is the day after,
or even a few month after that deadline?  Even someone who
normally wouldn't be interested might be attracted to the
forbidden fruit, or just angry at the principle of being barred
due to age.  And can you just see a muggle Fred or George trying
to get around that age barrier (especially if they were 20 and a
half as of the deadline)?

Of course, those people would be elgible for Survivor II, and
any subsequent ones they make.  But when they were taking
applicants for the first one, no one knew whether there'd be
enough demand for any more.

Melanie (who's been spending too much time on "Survivor" lately)

__________________________________________________
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From ravenclawlady at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 28 09:02:07 2000
From: ravenclawlady at yahoo.com (Melanie Moore)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort as Father/Grandfather of one of the Potters
Message-ID: <20000928090207.13405.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2411

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at hic.net> wrote:

> Hi --
> 
> I've been meaning to weigh in on this topic.

Me too, with almost exactly the same argument.

 
> Voldemort cannot be the father or grandfather of any of the
> Potters.
> Voldemort has no descendants according to Dumbledore.


Took the words right out of my keyboard!  But I would like to
add a few things.  I do think the resemblance between Voldemort,
James and Harry will be significant, but because of the "last
remaining descendant" quote, I don't believe Voldie fathered
James or Harry.  They could be related otherwise, however, and
I'd like to present a few possibilities.  I'm not trying to
argue that any of these DEFINITELY happened, but only to show
how he could be related to the Potters without being their
ancestor.


1) Voldemort is James' or Lily's half-uncle.  If Voldie is
Slytherin's last remaining descendant, that means he had no
siblings who lived to reproduce (because those siblings and
their issue would also have been SS's descendants).  He could,
however have had a half sibling (sharing one bio parent) by his
non-Slytherin parent (most likely TR Sr).  James or Lily could
be the child of that sibling.  Now, I think this is the least
likely of the three scenarios, because the little we heard about
TR Jr's parents don't leave much room for their having other
children.

2) Voldemort is Lily's cousin once removed.  Maybe, unknown to
TR Jr, TR Sr had a sister who left town as soon as she reached
adulthood, and went on to become Lily and Petunia's grandmother.
 If Voldemort's Slytherin descent was through his mother's side
(as I think likely), then anyone born on his father's side of
the family would be out of the Slytherin-descendant loop.

3) Voldemort is James' second cousin once removed.  As I've said
before, I think Voldie's mother is more likely the Slytherin
descendant, than his father.  But only one of her parents needs
to be SS-descended.  For the sake of argument, I'll say her
father (Voldie's maternal grandfather).  In that case, maybe
Voldie's maternal grandmother had a brother (Voldie's great
uncle), who went on to become James' great-grandfather.

Of the three theories, I think 3 is most likely, since James,
rather than Lily, shares the resemblance between V and Harry.

They are, however, only ideas.  Feel free to pick them apart.

Melanie the Ravenclawlady

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
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From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 10:39:41 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:39:41 +1000
Subject: Where were they when they got back from Moldy Volde's rebirth? and Portakey
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com> <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net> <00bf01c028d4$c9b16d80$a78f7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <OE546uPDVniSnRMWuLn00003369@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2412


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jinx 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
  To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 3:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Viewing the Tri Wizard challenges


  > S
  > P
  > O
  > I
  > L
  > E
  > R
  >
  OTOH it's never said that Harry and Cedric reappeared in the maze.  They
  could have appeared outside it, in full view of the crowds.  Also remember
  that once Cedric and Harry grasped the cup, the task ended and anyone could
  enter the maze.  Maybe the whole maze disappeared when the cup was touched
  or something.

  Now I have wondered about this a few times, and also about the portakey. It seemes that portakeys only work at spcific times (the 7 past 5 from stoadshead) and remember how they are all standing around while Mr W or Mr D (forget who) counts to second down to 7 past 5. And, given that at the World cup they were being thrown away once they had been used at the world cup they do seem like a single ticket. that aside it must have been a deluxe portakey to work at any old time (like an all day ticket) ok I've convinced myself (if no one else). 

  back to wondering about location of cedric and Harry when they return I've read that section a number of times because it bothers me and I've never come up with "the maze dissapepears when the cup is touched" but Jinx - I think you've got it. I'm a believer!

  storm



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From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:08:11 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:08:11 +1000
Subject: OT - for Lori
References: <v02140b1eb5f87f96747e@[140.254.112.150]>
Message-ID: <OE246PYzDabigPasSmz0000080a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2413


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: summers.65 at osu.edu 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron


  **********************************************************
  Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

          "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                  two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

  Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
  Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
  Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
  ***********************************************************

  What's "animal dreams" like? It's been on my "as yet unread" shelf for a number of years .... Also what was the Bill Bryson you were reading, "I'm a stranger here myself"? I've not seen that one out here yet (not that I go to bookshops, only the library, the former being Place of Poverty)

  storm

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





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From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:14:45 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:14:45 +1000
Subject: Harry's blood in Voldemort
References: <8qttrg+msr2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE17SrdUWhn65DWG6tA00000866@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2414


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Ferer 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:54 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline


  Jim said - "I think, though, that *somehow* Voldemort made his ultimate mistake when he took Harry's blood. Are their destinies bound together now? I hope not, for it could mean Harry is to die if Voldemort is to be killed. But somehow Voldemort took in the seeds of his final defeat with Harry's blood."

  yes I think he has (at least I hope he has) I wonder if it is similar to PP/Wormtail. Remember how Dumbledore tells HP that he has sent Voldemort a deuputy that is in Harry's debt? (POA) AND how the spell for re-emboiment was Voldemort's on invention (duuno the ref, think that there is two ref's one in the first chapter and one later on) - if it hasn't been done before Maybe Voldemort's made some error (I hope so)

  Storm

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From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Thu Sep 28 11:43:56 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:43:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
References: <8qrq43+2qtg@eGroups.com> <39D1E280.7AE96F36@hic.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000928124356.D0A.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2415

On 27.09.2000 at 07:05:20 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

>We don't know what Ron said to her before Harry entered the common
>room.  We're limited by Harry's POV.  Depending on what Ron said, it
>could make her reply take on several different meanings.  If he said
>to
>her what he did at the Ball -- "By going with Krum, you betrayed
>Hogwarts & Harry in particular," then her response of "Well, if you
>don't like it, you should have asked me before someone else & not as
>a
>last resort" takes on a far less personal meaning. In that case,
>she's
>saying, "Fine.  If you think it's betrayal of Hogwarts, then great.
>You
>should have asked me earlier yourself.  You only asked me as a last
>resort yourself you know."

But it's being Ron's last resort that hurts her feelings. I don't
think there's any way to put a non-personal twist on that. He takes
her for granted and assumes that nobody else could be interested in
her. If it was just about betraying Harry and Hogwarts (which I think
Ron only said because he didn't want to admit to the real reason for
his disappointment), she could have wiped that away without bringing
the personal note into it. Something along the lines of "That's the
stupidest thing I've ever heard and it's none of your business who
I'm going to the ball with."

>I will NEVER buy the argument that Harry cares for Ron more than
>Hermione.  That completely undermines the Trio's friendship if you
>start
>down that path.  

I agree. Harry cares for Hermione differently but not more or less.  

>Farmer in the Dell, Farmer in the Dell . . . heigh ho the derry o,
>the
>Farmer in the Dell.  . . . .

Can somebody please bridge the cultural gap and tell me what this
means? 

>I agree with Cassandra's post last night about why Hermione is just
>not
>right for Ron.  There's just no way she can be the right partner for
>him.  She is not a background figure.  If *anyone* needs a rather
>meek &
>background figure as a romantic partner, it's Ron 

So Ron's way out of his identity crisis is a little woman who sits at
his feet looking up at him with adoration? If he can't work out his
problems for himself I doubt that is going to work. He needs to find
an area he can excell in and learn to respect himself. 

Greetings
Christina



 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Thu Sep 28 11:43:56 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:43:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Voldy, the family man
References: <8qtv20+8s5r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000928124356.1967.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2416

On 27.09.2000 at 23:15:12 Kelley  wrote:
>What about this guys?
>
>We don't know if TR Sr. knew his wife was preg when he left her.  
>Perhaps TR Jr. (or Vold) left a preg woman w/o knowing it too. 

I find it highly unlikely that Voldemort/Tom Riddle would get
involved with a Muggle woman in the first place. He hated Muggles
when he was at Hogwarts and the first thing he did out of school was
to extinguish the Muggle side of the family tree. 

> He 
>would have been about thirty, and we don't know when he *became* 
>Voldemort.

In CoS Tom Riddle states that he began calling himself Voldemort and
gathering supporters while still at Hogwarts. 

>  If so, this child could be James (possibly Lily).  So in 
>theory Vold may not know he ever had a child, and thus, grandchild.  

He might have a child he doesn't know about, but I don't believe it's
either James or Lily. JKR seems to set up James as the heir of Godric
Gryffindor, and Lily is muggle-born, which seems very important to
JKR. The acceptance of muggle-borns is a major theme of the books.
Besides, immortality is one of Voldemort's major goals and having
children is one of the ways to achieve it. I can't see him "spreading
his seed" carelessly.
 
>Then in CoS, when TR Jr comments about the likenesses between him
>and 
>Harry, he's noticing this, but has no idea there's a reason for it.  
>Can anyone think of any holes I'm missing here?  It would seem 
>strange for JKR to mention the likenesses and not go anywhere with
>it.

I'm sure JKR is going somewhere with it, but so far I have no idea
where that could be. 

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Thu Sep 28 11:43:57 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:43:57 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000928124357.1EBB.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2417

Dumbledore leaves running Hogwarts the School to Professor McGonagal
and concentrates on running Hogwarts the Center of Resistance against
Evil. Hagrid says that during Voldemort's reign Hogwarts was the only
safe place there was. From what is known about the Marauders we learn
that Dumbledore uses his position to groom and recruit fighters
against Evil from among his students. Being headmaster of the most
prestigious school of wizardry at least in Britain also gives him the
opportunity to keep an eye on the next generation of possible Death
Eaters and to evaluate there skills.

As for picking faculty members, according to Hagrid Gilderoy Lockhart
was the only applicant for the position of DADA teacher that year and
Dumbledore had no choice. I think it's possible that he keeps Sybil
Trelawney on his staff because she does make true and valuable
predictions from time to time and he wants to be there to hear them
and not let her fall into his enemies' hands. Snape is an awful
teacher, but obviously plays an important part in the fight against
Voldemort. So maybe Dumbledore lets him run on a long leash. He seems
a very laid-back kind of leader anyway. 

So far the only teachers we got to know more about are the ones
somehow involved in fighting Voldemort. The quality of the others'
lessons is unknown. 
What bothered me was the way Professor McGonagal stood by and let
Hermione wear herself out by taking on more subjects than she could
handle in PoA. From an educational point of view that was
irresponsible. 

Greetings
Christina


 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:54:53 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:54:53 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dursley's
References: <NCBBJOIAEKCEFEMJIAOJCENHCHAA.recla@magick.net>
Message-ID: <OE35ysbcq31f1Lgki9B00001351@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2418


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diann Recla 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:43 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dursley's


  <snip>
  He is also afraid of the witches and wizards - he bought a gun for protection when they are hiding from the letters from Hogwarts.

  And this isn't the appropriate response to threat <g>

  Why is Vernon so scared of the magic community?  Is it possible that Vernon was related to the Riddles?

  because he is a bully and he does not recognise/is not able to catororise the magic community, thus what he can not control he is afriad of.

  I don't know that Marge is a real factor in the series; she does show how unpleasant and mean the family can be.

  And anyone who breeeds bulldogs has got to be a bit funny (sorry ppl with short snouted dogs.) and she is a characture of a certain english sterotype. I don't think she is there to show how mean family can be - she is too Ronald Dahl (SP?) to be scary. Or at least I find the daily reality of Petunia making HP work all day and then giving him a cheese sandwich for dinner much more threatening.

  Who was older, Lily of Petunia?
  How much knowledge does Petunia have of the magic world?
  probably not very much - remember students are forbidden to do magic on holidays. And by the time Lily had left school I feel they were pretty estranged. Maybe - like Harry bluffed the Dursley's - Lily bluffed her sister. The stuff she talks about - turning tea cups into toads, is not that difficult to pick up if Lily was talking about exams or whatever.

  Is the overindulgence of his parents a form of abuse?  Dudley appears to believe that he should always get his way.
  Of course it is - but we have long discussed the abusive nature of the Dursleys (admittedly usually in the context of their behviour towards Harry). I've done a lot of dog discussion today (in other forums) so drawing on that - they are creating an immature and uncertain child by "promoting" him in the family structure to controling adult status before he is ready for it. You see it a lot in dogs (the small dominant ones who have been over indulged. they almost invariably end up fat and nippy - a bit like Ripper in some ways - now there is a ll I hadn't seen before)

  Did Dudley learn anything from eating candy from Fred and George?
   And No, he will learn nothing but to fear what he does not understand/can not control from his experance with Feorge and Gred.

  I am sure that there are many more questions to be answered.

  yes, but I shall doom and gloom my as-straight-forward-explinations-as-I-can-make-it off to bed now and you will have to consider them without my pesimistic outlook

  Storm (feeling more Eyore than ususal)stomp, stomp, stomp ...



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From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 11:57:08 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:57:08 +1000
Subject: URL for Draco
References: <8qqib8+s9r7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE39Vc4Iu1B6gVs1tIz000002ef@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2419

Cassie - 

Whats the URL for the Draco fic?

storm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 13:04:06 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:04:06 -0000
Subject: Voldemort as Father/Grandfather of one of the Potters
In-Reply-To: <20000928090207.13405.qmail@web4802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8qvfk6+mj1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2420

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <linsenma at h...> wrote:
 
>  Voldemort has no descendants according to Dumbledore.

No descendant that he knows of, but how would Dumbledore know if Tom 
Riddle had an illegitimate kid, or 10 for that matter?  


 





From brooksar at indy.net  Thu Sep 28 13:33:51 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:33:51 -0500
Subject: Parents
Message-ID: <39D348C0.5C1E7AC7@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2421

We keep talking about Harry seemingly not as curious as we would expect
about finding out more about his parents.

Unless the Dursleys or someone at Hogwarts told him they were cremated,
wouldn't you think he might also want to know where they are buried?

-Brooks  - wondering what other obvious things we have overlooked.



From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 14:59:38 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:59:38 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <8qvmcq+p3ub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2422

You can listen to an interview of JKR at 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/djs/mayo.shtml

The interviewer say that obviously we can assume Ron Hermione and 
Harry to still be around in book 7 she says "no, you can't assume 
that at all" 
When asked why stop at 7 books she says " I'm not saying I won't 
write another book about the world" note: she does not say about 
harry potter "but only if I have a burning desire to do so in 10 
years time. I've always had my story planed and 7 is where the
story ends, Harry dies obviously" long pause "I'm joking" 
even longer pause "or am I?"






From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 15:33:35 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:33:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, Snape observations
References: <8qub92+nvra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D364CE.42590657@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2423

Joywitch wrote:

> I think that the reason why Dumbledore wasnt the Potters secretkeeper
> is that the good guys knew that Voldy was likely to go after the
> secretkeeper and torture him.  Sirius Black was willing to die to
> save his friends; he thought (mistakenly, of course) that Peter
> Pettigrew was too.  Dumbledore was too valuable a person, as head of
> the anti-Voldy army, to risk.

On the other hand, as the only person Voldemort feared, Dumbledore was an
excellent choice. But to lift from an earlier post of mine,

Gen wrote:

> did you ever wonder why if James could hand over the Invisibility
> Cloak and Gringotts safe key over to Dumbledore, why didn't he
> consider Dumbledore as secret keeper ?

Dumbledore offered. In book 3, ch 10, McGonagall says she remembers that
Dumbledore offered, because he was sure someone close to the Potters was a
Voldmort informant, but that James insisted on using Sirius, and "told
Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were."

The reason Dumbledore wasn't was that James said no.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 15:40:44 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:40:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
References: <cc.a98633a.270427f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39D3667C.724CE61F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2424

SHENmagic at aol.com wrote:

> Been thinking about Harry and
> Lily's  green eyes, and the green light of the Avra Kadavra curse and
> wondering if there is a connection....

What's with green, anyway? I always remember the serpent/witch that killed
Tirian's mother in The Silver Chair was "green as poison," and in Eyes of the
Dragon, a Steven King book lurking in our bathroom, I noticed the Dragon Sand
poison makes green smoke. Why is green so often associated with evil/poison?
Why are we green with envy (which is where Shakespeare went to make his
green-eyed monster green-eyed)? or with jealousy?

Can it really be as simple as this, that it's the opposite of red, color of
health? Or because so many poisons are plant-derived? Do any other
non-European cultures associate green with poison?

Simply having green eyes has no bad connotations of which I am aware (except
the occasional flash when the green-eyed monster rears its ugly head), but it
might be a little tinkling bell, here (or JKR might think green eyes are
really pretty with dark hair, as I do...).

---Amanda

>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 15:43:40 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:43:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Trelawny mode coming...) Ron
References: <8quln8+c5n7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D3672B.66B59047@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2425

jazzman4 at earthlink.net wrote:

> I do agree, though, that Dumbledore would be spreading himself a bit
> thin to take on this responsibility, along with handling his other
> duties.  Besides, the plan was to have the Secret Keeper go into
> hiding, an option Dumbledore did not have.

Dumbledore the Secret-Keeper wouldn't have *had* to hide, Voldemort was
afraid of him. The plan was to have Sirius Black the Secret-Keeper, hide.
And Dumbledore wasn't the secret keeper because James Wanted Sirius. Because
James trusted Sirius more than anyone else on the planet. Even though
Dumbledore offered.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 15:55:34 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:55:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
References: <8qunp7+n472@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D369F6.3E1079A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2426

Ebony Elizabeth wrote:

> This discussion of "purity of bloodlines" always brings to mind two
> questions with corresponding observations.  1)  Almost all of the
> normal blood I've ever seen is a shade of red--no matter who it comes
> from.  What exactly *is* pure blood?

It has nothing to do with actual blood. Back in the dim dark days before
people had any clue just exactly what in the man's semen made the woman
pregnant, they assumed it was some component of his blood that combined with
hers (I'm really over-simplifying here, but it's been many zillions of years
since I read those old Biology texts that explained the usage of "blood" for
heredity). The usage was ingrained in our language way before we understood
genetics or DNA. Hence, we get "bloodlines" for lines of descent, "blood
kin" for someone we are related to by birth, etc.. A "pure" blood is one
whose descent can be documented as being all from a certain type, as in a
pureblooded dog or horse. For legal purposes, a set number of generations
can be specified that must be documented, to be "pure." For a new dog breed,
it also has to breed true, etc.

3)  The notion of race is a relatively modern construct invented for a
specific purpose.  What *is* race?

Biologically, it's a subcomponent of a species. In  _Homo sapiens sapiens_,
we are the race _sapiens_. Recent placement of Neanderthals as _Homo sapiens
neanderthalensis_ would make the Neanderthals another race. But that's a
biological definition.

These days "race" seems to mean a visual difference. At least in the U.S.
But I've read old hiring guides from the 19th century that tell you that
Italians are too volatile for supervisory jobs, and too physically frail for
heavy labor jobs, Slavs are good for heavy work, but not too bright, etc.
I'm not joking. We are actually *much* less "racial" today.

The term "race" has been overlaid onto a psychological component of humans,
that ol' tribal Us/Them, and in that light is not new at all. Why do you
think it's a modern construct?

Anyway, I have to go feed the munchkins now. By the way, their dad, whose
grandparents came from Poland, is a "pure blooded" Pole, and resents having
to choose "Anglo" as a racial choice when he has no Anglo blood at all. And
just to muck with the census, I listed his and the children's ethnicity as
Polish-American. Ha.

--Amanda





From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 16:00:00 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:00:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where were they when they got back from Moldy  Volde's rebirth? and Portakey
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com> <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net> <00bf01c028d4$c9b16d80$a78f7ed4@johnmitt> <OE546uPDVniSnRMWuLn00003369@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39D36B00.56CC5075@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2427

storm stanford wrote:

>     Now I have wondered about this a few times, and also about the portakey. It seemes that portakeys only work at spcific times (the 7 past 5 from stoadshead) and remember how they are all standing around while Mr W or Mr D (forget who) counts to second down to 7 past 5. And, given that at the World cup they were being thrown away once they had been used at the world cup they do seem like a single ticket. that aside it must have been a deluxe portakey to work at any old time (like an all day ticket)

Okay, I can help you here, because this bugged me too. In Barty Crouch's confession under the Veritaserum, he says he had to "turn the cup into a portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master." I presume it's a variant of the portkey spell. I also presume that built into the portkey spell is the return. Remember, the World Cup portkeys also took everyone home, presumably at a specific time. So the function of the spell is "Take/Return", but you can specify the details--time, touch, etc. The Triwizard Cup was set to
"Take/Return" at a touch, didn't matter whose. And I believe somewhere it says it was supposed to return Voldemort to Hogwarts, newly raised and rarin' to go.

--Amanda




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Sep 28 16:52:18 2000
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:52:18 -0000
Subject: Purity of Bloodline
In-Reply-To: <39D3667C.724CE61F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <8qvt02+9a9k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2428


> 
> What's with green, anyway

And what's with red hair? The Weasleys, of course, but also Lily and 
Dumbledore have red hair (Albus' has turned silver, but it used to be 
red). Just makes you wonder...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From particle at urbanet.ch  Thu Sep 28 17:10:46 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:10:46 +0200
Subject: Slytherin descendants and logic puzzles
Message-ID: <00a301c0296f$0b1f8e60$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2429

Question: We know that Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the last descendant of Slytherin (I'm putting aside the ancestor/descendant debate for now). So, if Harry was Voldemort's direct descendant from either side, Dumbledore would know, seeing as he's probably done a lot of Vodie-research. But Voldemort isn't an idiot either...how do we know he hasn't destroyed all legal records of himself? It would make it harder for people other than his supporters to find out that he was Tom Riddle and get information on him, and would also be a convienient way to kill two birds with one stone if, say, he had a child who he wasn't proud of (i.e. someone who didn't follow his ideals - sort of embarrassing if you want to take over the world and can't keep hold of your own child).

<Actually, no. My nearest and dearest pretty unanimously consider me logically challenged. I'm never good at them and my brain freezes up--for instance, I
experienced MEGO in book 1 when Harry and Hermione got to Snape's barrier, with all the potions. [MEGO = My Eyes Glaze Over]. This was a fluke. I guess because
JKR wasn't trying to conceal anything, so it wasn't hard.>

You couldn't have worked it out without seeing the bottles, anyway. Some of the clues are size/shape based, and since we don't have a bottle-by-bottle description...

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbarhug at tidalwave.net  Thu Sep 28 18:34:24 2000
From: pbarhug at tidalwave.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:34:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net> <Q.20000928124357.1EBB.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <39D38F30.72A3778F@tidalwave.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2430



Christina Gross wrote:

> Dumbledore leaves running Hogwarts the School to Professor McGonagal
> and concentrates on running Hogwarts the Center of Resistance against
> Evil. Hagrid says that during Voldemort's reign Hogwarts was the only
> safe place there was. From what is known about the Marauders we learn
> that Dumbledore uses his position to groom and recruit fighters
> against Evil from among his students. Being headmaster of the most
> prestigious school of wizardry at least in Britain also gives him the
> opportunity to keep an eye on the next generation of possible Death
> Eaters and to evaluate there skills.

That's a very good point.  And, given the state of things during the reign
of terror and the times of uncertainty that followed, it is extremly
important to have Dumbledore in the position where he can watch over the
upcoming generations of witches and wizards, not only to keep an eye out for
standouts at either end of the specturm (good-evil), but to shape the
thoughts and attitiudes of those more "average" candidiates--sort of trying
to keep the pendulum on the good side.

Which brings me to a tangentially related question: if those who complete
Hogwarts then become fully qualified wizards, what about those who do not
get into Hogwarts?  Is there some other way to achieve qualified status in
the magical world?  Clearly there has to be a fairly large subset of
individuals who do not get into Hogwarts (think of Neville's concern that he
might not have been magic enough to get in).  People like Tom, who runs the
Leaky Cauldron, Stan from the Knight Bus and Madam Rosemerta.  Where and how
do they receive their magical education?  Or are their skills innate and
simply honed through a system of practical everyday learning?

>
>
> As for picking faculty members, according to Hagrid Gilderoy Lockhart
> was the only applicant for the position of DADA teacher that year and
> Dumbledore had no choice. I think it's possible that he keeps Sybil
> Trelawney on his staff because she does make true and valuable
> predictions from time to time and he wants to be there to hear them
> and not let her fall into his enemies' hands. Snape is an awful
> teacher, but obviously plays an important part in the fight against
> Voldemort. So maybe Dumbledore lets him run on a long leash. He seems
> a very laid-back kind of leader anyway.

Actually, I don't think Snape is a bad teacher.  He's just a very tough
teacher with a bad attitude.  He's certainly a bad teacher for some
students, but in terms of knowing his stuff and passing his techniques on,
he's pretty good.

>
>
> So far the only teachers we got to know more about are the ones
> somehow involved in fighting Voldemort. The quality of the others'
> lessons is unknown.
> What bothered me was the way Professor McGonagal stood by and let
> Hermione wear herself out by taking on more subjects than she could
> handle in PoA. From an educational point of view that was
> irresponsible.
>

Both Lockhart and Hermione's overwork serve as object lessons for the
student's at Hogwarts.  By  allowing Lockhart to teach and thereby expose
his lack of skills, Dumbledore was able to debunk a false hero in the
wizarding world and to teach the students to be careful of imposters.  The
reason that the lack of a good and consistent DADA teacher is not that
serious of a blow to the Hogwarts curriculum is that the students are
learning about the Dark Arts, their danger and how to resist them, simply as
part of their over all education at the school (see my earlier comment).

As for Hermione, the only way for her to learn about her limitations was for
her to try it her way and live with the consequences.  She would not have
responded well to hearing that she couldn't take that course load because
the teachers felt it too much, she need to learn it for herself.

drpam




From bel_imperia at btinternet.com  Thu Sep 28 18:55:58 2000
From: bel_imperia at btinternet.com (Alix Petty)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:55:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
References: <8qunp7+n472@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c0297d$be61b8a0$66367bd5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2431


----- Original Message -----
From: Ebony Elizabeth <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:17 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline


> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...>
> wrote:
> "As far as your last question goes, Alix (about how far back Muggle
> blood is traced) -- bigotry varies according to region and
> upbringing.  There are some areas of the USA where you are considered
> to be of the Negro race if even ONE of your great-grandparents had
> Negro blood.  This is not considered a good thing in those areas of
> the country.  Bigotry, pure and simple and wrong.  On the other hand,
> many people BRAG about being 1/16th American Indian ancestry.  Why it
> is considered intriguing to have a tiny bit of Native American blood
> and NOT intriguing to have a tiny bit of African-American blood is
> one of the great puzzles of the untutored brain."

Sorry to have snipped Ebony's interesting answer to Sister Mary, but I just
wanted to say that my original mail and questions weren't born of bigotry or
intended to be read as such and I'd like to apologise to anyone who thought
so, 'specially Ebony and Sister Mary.  It was a genuine enquiry, as I, as
someone else mentioned, would've thought that, knowing how wizarding folk
are categorised, having a wizard and a witch would have made you a
pureblood, and was puzzled, knowing Harry's parentage, to hear him described
as a halfblood.  And I'd like to reiterate what I said in one of my other
mails on this subject, that it is 'who' you are as a person that is
important, not 'what' society superficially pigeonholes you as being.  As
true for the wizarding world as it is for ours...

Alix




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 28 19:10:39 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:10:39 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as Headmaster
In-Reply-To: <39D38F30.72A3778F@tidalwave.net>
Message-ID: <8r053f+7ga0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2432

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Pam Hugonnet <pbarhug at t...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Which brings me to a tangentially related question: if those who 
complete
> Hogwarts then become fully qualified wizards, what about those who 
do not
> get into Hogwarts?  Is there some other way to achieve qualified 
status in
> the magical world?  Clearly there has to be a fairly large subset of
> individuals who do not get into Hogwarts (think of Neville's 
concern that he
> might not have been magic enough to get in).  People like Tom, who 
runs the
> Leaky Cauldron, Stan from the Knight Bus and Madam Rosemerta.  
Where and how
> do they receive their magical education

I think maybe you are making too many assumptions here.  Why couldnt 
Tom, Stan or Madam Rosmerta have gone to Hogwarts?  Who says that 
fully-qualified wizards dont work at blue-collar jobs?  Maybe being a 
fully qualified wizard entitles you to do magic, but not necessarily 
any particular job.  Or maybe it is the wizard equivalent of having a 
high school education in the muggle world - it enables you to get 
many low-skilled jobs, but you need more training or a high level of 
ability to do higher-skilled jobs.

JKR said in a interview that there is a magic quill at Hogwarts which 
writes down the names in a magic book of all babies born with magic 
abilities, and then letters are sent to them when they turn 11.  
However, just because the magic quill knows who has magic, that 
doesnt mean that their magical abilities are obvious to their 
families, or that anyone from Hogwarts makes a habit of checking the 
magic book and informing the families before they turn 11.  Nevilles 
family may have had no way to check the magic book, so they just 
didnt know if he was a wizard or a squib until he was forced to show 
his talents.

-- Joywitch




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep 28 20:18:29 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:18:29 -0700
Subject: Purity of Bloodline
In-Reply-To: <00d301c0297d$be61b8a0$66367bd5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGECMCDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2433

Alix, I didn't take offense.  The only time I've ever felt a target is when
people will insist on telling me lame "blonde" jokes.  Yeah, I'm a blonde
Scotch-Irish loony-tune, and proud of it, LOL!  (see my flower-child photo
in the FILES/Group Members folder -- I'm older now, but still look EXACTLY
the same) </white lie>.

SM Loony

-----Original Message-----
From: Alix Petty [mailto:bel_imperia at btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:56 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline

Sorry to have snipped Ebony's interesting answer to Sister Mary, but I just
wanted to say that my original mail and questions weren't born of bigotry or
intended to be read as such and I'd like to apologise to anyone who thought
so, 'specially Ebony and Sister Mary.  It was a genuine enquiry, as I, as
someone else mentioned, would've thought that, knowing how wizarding folk
are categorised, having a wizard and a witch would have made you a
pureblood, and was puzzled, knowing Harry's parentage, to hear him described
as a halfblood.  And I'd like to reiterate what I said in one of my other
mails on this subject, that it is 'who' you are as a person that is
important, not 'what' society superficially pigeonholes you as being.  As
true for the wizarding world as it is for ours...

Alix




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 20:35:22 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:35:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net> <Q.20000928124357.1EBB.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39D38F30.72A3778F@tidalwave.net>
Message-ID: <39D3AB8A.FAACD620@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2434

Pam Hugonnet wrote:

> Actually, I don't think Snape is a bad teacher.  He's just a very tough
> teacher with a bad attitude.  He's certainly a bad teacher for some
> students, but in terms of knowing his stuff and passing his techniques on,
> he's pretty good.

I was going to post something of this nature. Snape is, in fact, probably better
than average at getting the information across, because the students (well, most
of 'em) are afraid of getting it wrong and being ridiculed or some such. In
this, he does Draco and his buds no favors. I took it as a measure of Snape's
teaching abilities, as well as Hermione's know-how, that she was able to brew
the Polyjuice Potion correctly.

> As for Hermione, the only way for her to learn about her limitations was for
> her to try it her way and live with the consequences.  She would not have
> responded well to hearing that she couldn't take that course load because
> the teachers felt it too much, she need to learn it for herself.

This is what I was saying, about philosophies of education. The students at
Hogwarts are allowed to experience life's oddities and inequalities, to learn
how to handle it, in a controlled environment. This way they'll be better
equipped to handle it later, in an uncontrolled one. The teachers are not
enforcers, they are moderators. This is not the philosophy most Americans seem
to have about education. So far as I've observed.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 20:35:50 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:35:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
References: <8qvt02+9a9k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D3ABA5.74E76825@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2435

Lily had red hair?

--Amanda

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> >
> > What's with green, anyway
>
> And what's with red hair? The Weasleys, of course, but also Lily and
> Dumbledore have red hair (Albus' has turned silver, but it used to be
> red). Just makes you wonder...
>
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Sep 28 20:40:15 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:40:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Parents
References: <39D348C0.5C1E7AC7@indy.net>
Message-ID: <39D3ACAE.9E9EC524@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2436

"Brooks A. Rowlett" wrote:

> We keep talking about Harry seemingly not as curious as we would expect
> about finding out more about his parents.
>
> Unless the Dursleys or someone at Hogwarts told him they were cremated,
> wouldn't you think he might also want to know where they are buried?

Interesting question. I started thinking about it. Harry has no living
relatives but the Dursleys, which I take to mean no living Potter side
either. So probably Petunia got the job of disposing of the bodies, no?
She's her sister's only family. I understand cremation's cheaper, so they
probably were, but even if they were buried I can't see the Dursleys taking
Harry to the graves. They lied about the car crash, they could have lied
about other things. He might know, or believe he knows, where they lie. Or
perhaps this is one of the things he simply hasn't got to yet, in the flurry
of new stuff and the busy-ness of the school year.

--Amanda




From linsenma at hic.net  Thu Sep 28 20:53:37 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:53:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
References: <8qvt02+9a9k@eGroups.com> <39D3ABA5.74E76825@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D3AFD1.DCF2F6E5@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2437

Hi --

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Lily had red hair?
>

Yeah --- see the Mirror of Erised chapter in SS -- she's described as
having dark auburn hair.  Not quite the flaming red of the Weasleys but
red all the same.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Sep 28 21:03:44 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:03:44 -0000
Subject: Voldy, the family man
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000928124356.1967.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8r0bng+jnrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2438

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
> I find it highly unlikely that Voldemort/Tom Riddle would get
> involved with a Muggle woman in the first place. He hated Muggles
> when he was at Hogwarts and the first thing he did out of school was
> to extinguish the Muggle side of the family tree. 

Thanks for the reply, Christina.  As to the above, I wasn't really 
thinking a muggle woman, but I guess it could be possible.  I suppose 
JKR could find ~some~ way to work that out.
 
> In CoS Tom Riddle states that he began calling himself Voldemort and
> gathering supporters while still at Hogwarts.

True, but I was meaning when he underwent the changes that made him 
unrecognizable as TR.  I would have no idea if Vold would be capable 
of fathering children after all those changes.  Maybe. 
 
> He might have a child he doesn't know about, but I don't believe 
it's> either James or Lily. JKR seems to set up James as the heir of 
Godric> Gryffindor, and Lily is muggle-born, which seems very 
important to> JKR. The acceptance of muggle-borns is a major theme of 
the books.> Besides, immortality is one of Voldemort's major goals 
and having> children is one of the ways to achieve it. I can't see 
him "spreading> his seed" carelessly.

Maybe instead of the "muggle-born" thing being a 'statement', it's 
just the set-up to some big twist.  As for Vold, I could see him 
wanting immortality through an offspring, but I can just as easily 
see him being self-centered and wanting to be the only powerful one, 
not wanting to share this even with his own son. 
  
> I'm sure JKR is going somewhere with it, but so far I have no idea
> where that could be. 
> 
> Greetings
> Christina

Same here.  Could be just a big coincidence--doubt it, or of course, 
the evil 'red herring'.

Kelley




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 10:57:05 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:57:05 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <OE9vN3qljWwY0VnkB4l000002c7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2439

Here are a couple of recent list comments about Dumbledore:

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, he's
> Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> As an teacher myself, I find Hogwarts to be sorely lacking in quality
> of education. Dumbledore is a nice guy and all, but he doesn't know
> how to run a school...

Penny said  - Ya know, you're right, and it's bothering me.  Throughout the series,
Dumbledore is portrayed as wise, as knowing what's going on--although he
seems to let events sort of progress on their own rather than actively
shaping them.  

storm says - I think that he has to let events progress, you know how we were talking about the truth serium and I said that you just couldn't use it all the time because what about trust? Well (for those of you who accepted that argument) I think this is much the same. Dumbledore knows most of what goes on (ok, not faux moody and maybe Rita - "Dumbledore, who after all did not have a magical eye ..:) but most of it. remember in HP1 when he met HP at the Mirror (I am not going to name it - I can barely spell the right way around) He's incredibly powerful - but if he used it to full extent he could make things go *just so* and everything would be perfect - but who learns anything? and what a sterile world. I'm having an echo of some kids book here - anyone know whick one? (not the just so bit)

He has to let ppl (all of them) make the mistakes they are going to make and see if they can grow from it. now to complete my argument I need an example when he has picked someone up after they have fallen - but I can't think of one. I've lent all the books to a friend in a supreme act of niceness (and they've had them for 10 days -I'm in withdrawl) and so that's it.

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups 
  Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 1:03 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster


  We know Voldemort fears him, that Dumbledore has a good
  deal of input with the Ministry of Magic.  And yet, yeah, there's stuff
  going on at the school that doesn't seem right.  Is there some kind of
  balance he's trying to maintain that we're only dimly aware of, which
  forces him to make compromises we don't know about?  (e.g., in order to
  keep the Slytherin house under control, he is forced by some obscure
  magical rule to let someone teach potions who has a hooked nose.  Or
  something).

  I believe that Dumbledore is wise, and that he is earned the respect he
  is given by the wizarding world (and the thwarted snarls behind his back
  he gets from the Deatheaters).  So what's up with his bad faculty
  picks?  Well, I suppose he can't be blamed for Barty Crouch, Jr.--he
  hired someone else, after all.  But Gilderoy Lockhart?  Trelawney?
  Snape?  Bad luck, distraction, or some other mysterious design?

  Or maybe the teachers who are so terrible (Snape, Trelawney) were hired
  by his predecessor and have tenure and he can't get rid of them?

  (Do English/Scottish schools HAVE tenure?)

  Peg


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 28 07:59:36 2000
From: pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com (Pogonia the Harry Potter fan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:59:36 EDT
Subject: the Katherine Briggs books
Message-ID: <F185hRDT6Z3LstPGtPr00007242@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2440

Re the out of print books on fairy tales and folklore:

You may do better to check your local university library, or

http://www.bestbookbuys.com/

a site which searches through a large number of online booksellers to find 
the best price (with shipping and tax information). I haven't used it for 
HP-related reading yet, but have found some good science/tech books there at 
good discounts.

Best wishes,
Pogonia
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 29 00:58:56 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:58:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore as Headmaster
In-Reply-To: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8r0pgh+blt3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2441

I think Dumbledore hired Snape sometime after he was cleared of his 
Death Eater charges. Quite possibly Snape is at Hogwarts because he
is 
under Dumbledore's protection since he betrayed V. by spying on him.
We saw how scared Karkaroff was of potential V retaliation in GoF, so 
scared that he fled from Hogwarts when the Dark Mark burned. But
Snape 
chose to stay. He even told Karkaroff during the Yule Ball that he 
wouldn't leave. I think it has more to do with Dumbledore's
protection 
than it has to do with pure loyality.

As for Trelawney, (any educators here please don't hate me for this) 
maybe the people who are *good* at Divination are in the private 
sector and not in teaching due to monetary purposes (Hogwarts might 
not be well-paying for all we know). But Dumbledore in PoA did say 
that Trelawney has been correct before.

As for the DADA teaching position, Dumbledore has had bad luck. I 
really can't say if Quirrell was a competent teacher or not. On the 
other hand, I view the Lockhart debacle as an adult cautionary tale: 
an impressive curriculum vitae does not an impressive worker make. 
Lupin and even "Moody"/Crouch were good teachers, in my opinion. 

>From a learning point of view, I would be concerned about the DADA 
course. Harry and his classmates essentially wasted an entire year of 
DADA under Lockhart. Though they probably caught up under Lupin and 
"Moody"/Crouch, I think that hole in their education will catch up 
with them.



--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> Here are a couple of recent list comments about Dumbledore:
> 
> eggplant88 at h... wrote:
> 
> > Well it wouldn't be the first time Dumbledore is plain clueless, 
he's
> > Certainly not very good at picking faculty members for his school.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> 
> > As an teacher myself, I find Hogwarts to be sorely lacking in 
quality
> > of education. Dumbledore is a nice guy and all, but he doesn't 
know
> > how to run a school...
> 
> Ya know, you're right, and it's bothering me.  Throughout the 
series,
> Dumbledore is portrayed as wise, as knowing what's going 
on--although he
> seems to let events sort of progress on their own rather than 
actively
> shaping them.  We know Voldemort fears him, that Dumbledore has a 
good
> deal of input with the Ministry of Magic.  And yet, yeah, there's 
stuff
> going on at the school that doesn't seem right.  Is there some kind 
of
> balance he's trying to maintain that we're only dimly aware of, 
which
> forces him to make compromises we don't know about?  (e.g., in
order 
to
> keep the Slytherin house under control, he is forced by some obscure
> magical rule to let someone teach potions who has a hooked nose.  Or
> something).
> 
> I believe that Dumbledore is wise, and that he is earned the
respect 
he
> is given by the wizarding world (and the thwarted snarls behind his 
back
> he gets from the Deatheaters).  So what's up with his bad faculty
> picks?  Well, I suppose he can't be blamed for Barty Crouch, Jr.--he
> hired someone else, after all.  But Gilderoy Lockhart?  Trelawney?
> Snape?  Bad luck, distraction, or some other mysterious design?
> 
> Or maybe the teachers who are so terrible (Snape, Trelawney) were 
hired
> by his predecessor and have tenure and he can't get rid of them?
> 
> (Do English/Scottish schools HAVE tenure?)
> 
> Peg




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 29 01:10:12 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:10:12 -0000
Subject: Parents
In-Reply-To: <39D348C0.5C1E7AC7@indy.net>
Message-ID: <8r0q5k+vov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2442

As naive as this may sound, maybe the thought hasn't crossed Harry's 
mind. He's an abused child. The Dursley's admitted in the first book 
that they did everything they could to squash the magic out of him. 
Some of the curiosity about his parents were squashed by Vernon and 
Petunia too, for example the irritated manner in which they *remind* 
Harry how he got his scar. If all his questions about his parents
were 
answered with an underlying hostility, Harry would learn not to ask 
any questions at all. 


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks A. Rowlett" <brooksar at i...> 
wrote:
> We keep talking about Harry seemingly not as curious as we would 
expect
> about finding out more about his parents.
> 
> Unless the Dursleys or someone at Hogwarts told him they were 
cremated,
> wouldn't you think he might also want to know where they are buried?
> 
> -Brooks  - wondering what other obvious things we have overlooked.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 29 01:19:06 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:19:06 -0000
Subject: Slytherin descendants and logic puzzles
In-Reply-To: <00a301c0296f$0b1f8e60$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <8r0qma+6e4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2443

Good points, but V. hated his father for abandoning his mother when
he 
found out she was a witch. I think V.'s anger stems more from his 
father's abandonment than from his father's muggle-ness. If so 
wouldn't he try to be a better father than his own? By abandoning a 
child, he would be doing the same thing that his own father did. 
Considering V.'s sheer hatred for Muggles and Muggle-borns, I doubt 
that he would father a child of a Muggle lady.

On the other hand, V could be one of those people who continue the 
cycle of dysfunction within a family....

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Firebolt" <particle at u...> wrote:
> Question: We know that Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the last 
descendant of Slytherin (I'm putting aside the ancestor/descendant 
debate for now). So, if Harry was Voldemort's direct descendant from 
either side, Dumbledore would know, seeing as he's probably done a
lot 
of Vodie-research. But Voldemort isn't an idiot either...how do we 
know he hasn't destroyed all legal records of himself? It would make 
it harder for people other than his supporters to find out that he
was 
Tom Riddle and get information on him, and would also be a
convienient 
way to kill two birds with one stone if, say, he had a child who he 
wasn't proud of (i.e. someone who didn't follow his ideals - sort of 
embarrassing if you want to take over the world and can't keep hold
of 
your own child).
> 
> <Actually, no. My nearest and dearest pretty unanimously consider
me 
logically challenged. I'm never good at them and my brain freezes 
up--for instance, I
> experienced MEGO in book 1 when Harry and Hermione got to Snape's 
barrier, with all the potions. [MEGO = My Eyes Glaze Over]. This was
a 
fluke. I guess because
> JKR wasn't trying to conceal anything, so it wasn't hard.>
> 
> You couldn't have worked it out without seeing the bottles, anyway. 
Some of the clues are size/shape based, and since we don't have a 
bottle-by-bottle description...
> 
> ~Firebolt
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Sep 29 01:31:39 2000
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:31:39 -0000
Subject: Rowling's a slippery wench, or The Search for Voldemort's Wand
In-Reply-To: <8quj2j+22hf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r0rdr+dfcd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2444

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, jazzman4 at e... wrote:
 
 "As you may recall, I've been espousing a theory for the last few
 days, to the effect that it was Harry's innate power that caused the 
 regurgitation of spells from Voldemort's wand, rather than the fact 
 that two "brother" wands were being forced to duel (as described by 
 Albus).  This theory has not been accorded the universal acclaim and 
 acceptance that I've grown used to.." 

Your theory is very similiar to mine, which is that Harry's innate 
magic CHANGED the order of the Priori Incantatum.  I do think it was 
a true PI, but because Harry was thinking of his dad "more than any 
other tonight" (GoF, Ch 34) it changed from Lily 1st to James 1st out 
of the wand.  

Trina




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 29 01:56:39 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:56:39 -0000
Subject: More Comments about Dumbledore as Headmaster
Message-ID: <8r0ssn+fjuv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2445

While I pretty much agree with Steve that it seems like Dumbledore is 
perhaps not the best Headmaster ever, it is possible that his control 
may be limited.  After all, the school is officially run by a Board 
of Governors, who if you remember from CoS have the power to fire 
Dumbledore.  Perhaps they dictate all hiring/firing of faculty and 
arrange curriculum and other details of running the school.

-- Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 29 02:13:53 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:13:53 -0000
Subject: I guess Harry didn't change my life after all....
Message-ID: <8r0tt1+kmqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2446

I know, as I knew from the start, that I had no real hope of winning 
the "How has HP Changed My Life Contest" ut that didn't stop me from 
imagining.  For those of you that don't know, I'm not a full fledged 
Grown-up just sixteen.  

So, below you will find my entry. I  would have posted it previously 
but I was thinking rather superstitously that if y'all loved it I 
would be jinxed and if you hated it I wuoldn't have a real hope of 
winning....so now that those fears are out of the way tell me what 
you think-

How Harry Potter Has Changed My Life.

>From the first page of Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone to the 
last of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, the story of the young 
wizard has intrigued me.  J.K. Rowling has woven her words into a 
magical tapestry of action, suspense, emotions and much more.  But 
how has Harry Potter changed my life?  Ever since I first saw this 
question it has gotten me thinking.  I would love to say that the 
books have instilled upon me a life long love for reading except
I've 
always loved to read.  It would be great to proclaim that the books 
have made me want to write but I've always enjoyed that as well. 
No, 
I really can't say that Harry has changed my life but I can say
that 
he has made me look at life differently, even on my most Snape-ish 
days.  What house would I be in, Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw or 
Slytherin?  Which qualities describe me most and which qualities do I 
most wish to obtain?  The reasons why I love Harry Potter are nothing 
more than because it is a good story.  One whose themes of virtue, 
honesty, loyalty, and trust have made me examine those things in my 
own life and made me see how as I grow and change I can, like Harry, 
make right decisions. In the words of Dumbledore "It is our
choices 
that show who we really are, far more than our abilities."  



Well?  Also does anyone know if I can find a list of the winners???  
(just curious)


Scott





From oalburquerque at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 02:26:17 2000
From: oalburquerque at hotmail.com (Odile Alburquerque)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:26:17 -0000
Subject: Various replies...
Message-ID: <8r0uk9+mlha@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2447

I'm new to this club, and I signed up to get the messages by
email, 
here the lot of them are posted in one huge email. I have a couple of 
replies for them, but I can't remember all of their topics, so,
bear 
with me, if you're reading. 


I believe that the color green is not only associated with jealousy, 
but also with sickness. I remember one assignment in college (where I 
study advertising) in which we were to redesign a logo for a clinic, 
and green was automatically discarded because of its association with 
illness, as well as the color yellow. This could be an explanation to 
the green light of the death spell, Avada Kedavra, but not to Harry 
and his mother's green eyes (which I agree to whoever posted this
and 
said that JK Rowling probably thought green eyes and black hair was 
really striking).

There's this other post that talks about why Voldemort
doesn't 
destroy the legal records of him being known as Tom Riddle. I think 
that since Voldemort isn't that old and some people still
remember 
him when he was at Hogwarts, he's have to more than just destroy 
evidence, but also erase a whole lot of people's memories.

Another post of Dumbledore being able to recruit people into 
Hogwarts
 I think that every kid who has demonstrated the
capability 
to perform magic is allowed into the school. I mean, its not just 
kids from wizarding families, but also `muggles'.  If it were
up to 
Dumbledore to reject kids from Hogwarts, then I don't think Draco 
Malfoy would've been accepted, him or his cronies, whose families
had 
been Death-Eaters.

Okay, now there is a piece of the puzzle in book 4 that troubles me.  
If you all recall to chapter 36, page 696, 1st paragraph (hardcover), 
Harry was talking about how Voldemort no longer felt pain when he 
touched Harry's face. Right there, in the 2nd paragraph, it 
says, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of 
somewhat like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second,
Harry 
was sure he imagined it
" what is this supposed to mean? Are we
going 
to find out in book 5, 6 or 7 that Dumbledore is actually evil??

odile




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 03:18:38 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:18:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qio10+nlee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c029c3$f6cd8700$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2448


----- Original Message -----
From: <eggplant88 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 12:07 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?


>
> Do you think Harry Potter will die at the end of book 7? Rowling has
> already said she doesn't plan to continue the series after 7 so at
> that point she really won't have any further use for him. I bet she
> bumps him off.

Of course, after Book 7, she will no longer have further use for *any* of
the HP characters.  Will she therefore kill everyone in the series?


> Would this be a good idea, should Harry Potter die? I think so, a
> tragic hero gives stories a grandeur they wouldn't otherwise have, at
> least that's what the ancient Greeks thought. I'll tell you one
> thing, somebody important is going to die, if it's not Harry then Ron
> is a dead man.

Don't forget Voldemort - just as Shakespeare was compelled to finish off
Claudius at the end of Hamlet, there's no way Voldy - or his allies in the
Malfoy clan - will survive Book Seven.  It could be that JKR is planning a
final bloodbath of Elizabethan dimensions which will require the sacrifice
of several "good" characters.  The increasingly uncanny parallels between
Harry and Voldy seemingly point to some shared linkage of their common
destinies, and Harry may have to do a John 3:14 to rid the Wizard World of
Voldemort's evil.

At the same time, to me Harry seems more a Prince Harry (aka Prince Hal,
later Henry V) than a Hamlet; while the series could end with his death, my
guess is that he'll be there at the end of Book 7, on the threshhold of
aduthood, to deliver a powerful eulogy about those (Sirius Black, Lupin,
Snape, Dumbledore, Ron?, Pettigrew??, [switching sides], Hagrid?), who gave
their last full measure of devotion.

    - CMC




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Sep 29 03:25:12 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:25:12 -0000
Subject: New Japanese Cover Art Now in Files Area
Message-ID: <8r122o+hkg5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2449

To see the unique cover art from the Japanese version of "Chamber," 
go to the Files area and look under <<Book Covers and Graphics>>, 
then under <<Covers from other lands...>>.  The two available 
Japanese covers are near the bottom of the list of files.  Please 
take a look at other covers from around the world while you're there.

The Japanese covers are among my favorites, along with the Italian 
and Swedish.  The Finnish covers are worth a look, as are those for 
the new French hardback versions.

Oddly, the Israeli covers use the GrandPr? artwork, but have been 
mirror-imaged. I know that Hebrew is written from right to left, but 
why mirror the artwork too?

-Jim Flanagan




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 03:22:29 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:22:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various replies...
References: <8r0uk9+mlha@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D40AF5.12D34BFC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2450

Welcome, Odile, from another fairly-new-comer. Cool name.

Odile Alburquerque wrote:

> IThere's this other post that talks about why Voldemort
> doesn't destroy the legal records of him being known as Tom Riddle. I
> think
> that since Voldemort isn't that old and some people still
> remember him when he was at Hogwarts, he's have to more than just destroy
> evidence, but also erase a whole lot of people's memories.

Well, he's in his sixties. At least, it's been sixty-odd years since he was
born--I doubt human age-keeping applies to him anymore. But it leads to
another question--what sort of "legal records" are we speaking of, here?
Legal Muggle records? If so, would there necessarily be any, save birth? And
if we're talking legal magic records, do we even know what they are?

> Another post of Dumbledore being able to recruit people into
> Hogwarts I think that every kid who has demonstrated the
> capability to perform magic is allowed into the school. I mean, its not
> just
> kids from wizarding families, but also `muggles'.  If it were
> up to Dumbledore to reject kids from Hogwarts, then I don't think Draco
> Malfoy would've been accepted, him or his cronies, whose families
> had been Death-Eaters.

Ah, but the point someone else made....what an excellent vantage point to
observe the next generation of up-and-comers, see their tendencies, monitor
their development, and learn their characters!

> Okay, now there is a piece of the puzzle in book 4 that troubles me.
> If you all recall to chapter 36, page 696, 1st paragraph (hardcover),
> Harry was talking about how Voldemort no longer felt pain when he
> touched Harry's face. Right there, in the 2nd paragraph, it
> says, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of
> somewhat like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second,
> Harry was sure he imagined it" what is this supposed to mean? Are we
> going to find out in book 5, 6 or 7 that Dumbledore is actually evil??

Well, I'm sure we'll find out what it's about, but I seriously doubt
Dumbledore is evil. Dumbledore is the balance for Voldemort--the closest
character to pure good, as Voldemort is the closest to pure evil. We damned
well *better* find out; it's tantalizing. Deliberately so. AAAAGH! Months
and months and months....

sorry

--Amanda




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 03:43:57 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:43:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <8qh2fq+4tjg@eGroups.com> <Q.20000923130058.1CDD.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39CD21EC.F2FCD6C2@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <00fc01c029c7$7fa62700$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2451


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Sorting



>
> I think it would be interesting to meet a Slytherin that you could count
on,
> utterly.  I just don't like the idea of all the Slytherins being nasty.
> Seems too simplistic, and I don't think Rowling's a simplistic writer.
And
> really, if all the Slytherins HAVE to be nasty and evil, would Dumbledore
> let the Slytherin house continue?  Would parents be willing to keep
sending
> their kids there? (Other than the Deatheaters, of course).
>
> Peg
> Who holds out hope for some nobility in the Slytherins, somewhere (even
> Draco).

I agree with you regarding Slytherins as a whole (see Dumbledore's praise of
the Slytherin character in HP-CS, p. 333), but IMHO Draco is, alas, a wholly
owned subsidiary of Voldemort, Inc. See p. 729 of HP-GF ("You picked the
wrong side, Potter!...I told you not to hang around with riffraff like this
[i.e., "mudbloods" like Hermione]....Too late now, Potter! They'll be the
first to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first!
Well -second - Diggory was the f-"..

At this point several others who also doubt Draco's nobility intervene to
halt his tirade.

    - CMC






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 03:49:39 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:49:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting
References: <200009240005.UAA26790@ligarius-fe0.ultra.net>
Message-ID: <011101c029c8$4b824340$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2452


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Waghorne" <waghorne at ma.ultranet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Sorting


 The supposition that Lily was a Slytherin might just fit in very well
> here.  It would both provide a good Slytherin character, and also be
> a surprise to most readers.  Maybe this is the hint from the
> continued reference to Lily's green eyes.
>
>
> Ken

In books 2-3, we learned a great deal about James Potter, but we still know
virtually nothing about Lily, save her heroic defense of her infant son
Harry. I've the feeling that Books Five-Six will reveal to us a great deal
more biographical information about Lily - it may even to delivered to us
through the auspices of her sister Petunia (which would at least justify the
presence of the increasingly tiresome Dursleys.  Like, we get the point
about how obtuse mere Muggles are!)

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 03:58:01 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:58:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014401c029c9$76b4ce60$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2453


----- Original Message -----
From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down


>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
>
> > snip
> > Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same
> > gender relationships
> >
> > snip
> I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
> PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
> forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
> parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
> reading too much into it?
> Pippin
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com
>
>
>
>




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 29 03:55:05 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:55:05 -0000
Subject: Sorting
In-Reply-To: <00fc01c029c7$7fa62700$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8r13qp+eaom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2454

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> 
wrote:


> I agree with you regarding Slytherins as a whole (see Dumbledore's praise of
> the Slytherin character in HP-CS, p. 333), but IMHO Draco is, alas, a wholly
> owned subsidiary of Voldemort, Inc.
	
	Hey! Draco's only fourteen. I would hate to write off any kid, 
real or imaginary at that age...and, yes, I know it happens all the 
time, but that doesn't make it right. 
	And remember, the one time that Draco was actually confronted with 
Voldemort's evil (the unicorn scene in SS) he fled screaming.
	Pippin





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 04:00:35 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:00:35 -0000
Subject: (OT) Purity of Bloodlines
Message-ID: <8r1453+jcai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2455

Hi, everyone!

Alix--heavens no, I wasn't offended.  :)  To be quite honest, I can't 
even recall what you wrote that led to Sis. Mary's reply.  I just 
thought Sister Mary's observation was apt and posted on it as it is a 
subject of interest.  It also relates to the way I read and teach 
certain aspects of Harry Potter.

Amanda--I followed your reasoning with interest.  It was quite 
familiar.  The points that you raised are what *all* of us learned in 
high school and college--categorizations such as Negroid, Mongoloid, 
Caucasoid, etc. and the accompanying physical phenotypic features are 
what designate "race".

The reason why I *know* (not think) race is a modern psychosocial 
construct is because I could see the holes in the textbook definition 
even when I was a young child.  While seemingly inherent in our 
species, the us/them hierarchical tendencies of humanity prior to the 
rise of Western civilization were not primarily based upon the 
aforementioned characteristics until a number of historical events 
occurred, quite a few of them predating the age of European 
expansion.  

A very fascinating study is to examine world history (not just 
through the usual lens of history with entire continents footnoted) 
from the decline of the Roman Empire until 1492.  We know a lot about 
the Middle Ages in Europe.  What was everyone else doing during this 
particular millennium?  What were the contemporary views on race, and 
how did the rise of Christendom influence these?  Who was first to 
use the term "pure blood"?

(Sidenote:  Card thought of some of these questions as he did 
background research for *Pastwatch*.  He cites Tzvetan Todorov's *The 
Conquest of America* (translated from the French by Richard Howard) 
as "the book that made me want to do this novel".  The inspiration 
for the more scholarly bent to my search for "truth" is controversial 
anthropologist Ivan Van Sertima.  I met him as a college freshman.  
He is no pseudoscientist, yet his research articles have to have 10 
times the normal amount of citations b/c what he is finding in the 
gaps challenges what is in the textbooks.)

I could go on and on--but I won't.  E-mail me off list to discuss 
further.  I don't mind discourse about this topic at all--indeed, it 
is welcomed!

When all is said and done, I *still* maintain that the validity of 
any pure blood theory in HP and in real life is questionable.  I 
become very concerned when pure blood theories are justified by 
science.  After the categorization is over and everyone is neatly 
pidgeonholed, then the ranking begins.  Remember, we humans tend to 
be hierarchical by nature--our Achilles' heel, according to the 
Oankali (aliens in Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis sci-fi series).  
Which one is best?  

This rating system has *very* uncomfortable historical echoes--some 
of them very recent, some of which parallel the pureblood/Mudblood 
theme in Harry Potter.

The idea of ethnic genocide is no sociological Athena.  It did not 
spring up fully grown.  It, like the modern concept of race, evolved.

Again, I'd love to continue this discussion off list if anyone is 
interested.  Perhaps this is fairly OT, but as some of this relates 
to one of my FAQs, I wanted to address it.  

--Ebony (whose classes will begin reading *Number the Stars* and 
delving into a unit on World War II and the Holocaust next week)




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 04:07:49 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:07:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c029ca$d554a200$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2456


----- Original Message -----
From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down


>
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
>
> > snip
> > Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same
> > gender relationships
> >
> > snip
> I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
> PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
> forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
> parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
> reading too much into it?


In real life I provide therapy to emotionally disturbed and
physically/sexually abused children - if I thought for one second that JKR
condoned  any kind of adult-child sexual relationship - which has scarred,
perhaps permanently, so many of the kids I work with - I'd join up with the
most hardcore fundamentalist group I could find to get HP banned.

I do think you're reading "too much" (i.e., your own little fantasies) into
it.  Adult sexual designs upon children are invariably depraved. Lupin does
not want to jump Harry's bones. Lupin's departure is clearly motivated by
societal prejudice against werewolves.

    Send those flames to:

        - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 04:33:56 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:33:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Book 5 should start
References: <8qk0d8+mclk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017501c029ce$7b15c540$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2457


----- Original Message -----
From: <eggplant88 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:36 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Book 5 should start


>
> After Harry's friend is murdered right before his eyes, after being
> threatened with death and stabbed, after being tied to a tombstone
> and tortured so badly he wants to die, poor Harry is suffering from
> something like post traumatic stress disorder. Harry is like a shell
> shocked soldier at the start of book 5. A month after his horrible
> encounter with the dark lord he's at the Durseleys and he's still
> having nightmares, his hand shakes, he's lost a lot weight, he isn't
> sleeping or eating much and he just doesn't look good. His friends
> are worried about him so he spends the last month of the vacation
> with Ron and Hermione at the Weasleys home.

And then he appears on Oprah and Jerry Springer.......

Sorry: your plot synopsis sounds like pop psychology at its most trivial.
Surely part of the point of the otherwise tedious return to the Dursleys is
that the utter banality of their existence helps Harry to regain his
equilibrium, and set his cosmic struggles with his Destiny in a more
humorous (and therefore human) context.  And the beginning of Book Four
shows that the story is not just about Harry anymore......

How about this for a Book Five starter:

Cornelius Fudge appears as the keynote speaker at some very important
official wizardly function.  After praising the accomplishments of the
present administration, he pooh-poohs the recent rumors - including those
spread by a man they might otherwise considered reliable, Albus Dumbeldore -
about the return of the Dark Lord.  As he recites the reasons why Voldy's
return is impossible, Lord V. makes some dramatic demonstration of his
power: the lights go out, things explode, Corny shrinks to a nine-inch
height, etc. One or more of the Weasley family is among the missing. Panic
grips the Wizard world - Harry, ensconced in deepest Suburbia, once more
departs from the Dursley's under conditions of maximum discord to assist
those he loves (hey,  that's how heroes operate - they care about others,
they don't obsess over their little maladies).

    - CMC





From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Sep 29 04:43:43 2000
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:43:43 -0000
Subject: Schafer
In-Reply-To: <8qc0i6+lj3m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r16lv+krm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2458

I bought Schafer's book over eBay and received it yesterday.  Ugh!  
The prose is choppy and frequently ungrammatical, but even worse are 
the numerous mistakes of fact. It made me wonder if she had even read 
the books; she certainly hadn't taken the time to re-check her 
statements or to proofread the manuscript.

One thing that I did enjoy were the belly laughs she unintentionally 
provides with howlers such as: "Pettigrew's missing finger symbolizes 
his inability to make his point effectively."  (p. 66)

I'd be very careful about using this book as a teaching resource 
because of the numerous errors and the extremely poor writing.  Even 
the youngest HP fans will notice the factual mistakes, and I'm sure 
that more than a few 6th graders can write better prose than is 
evidenced here.

-Jim Flanagan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 04:51:50 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:51:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <8qkvcn+n2tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c029d0$fbd5c0c0$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2459


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:25 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader


>
> Like millions of other kids this past summer, my grandkids have been
> reading Harry Potter.  Nick, who is going into 4th grade was a
> special surprise.  He never showed much interest in reading or
> academics in general, but he devoured all four books this summer,
> with some help from his mother and Jim Dale.
>
> I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
> 9th birthday. I'm considering either The Hobbit, which I read in high
> school, or Narina, which I have not read.  Can anyone tell me what
> would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
> group reading now (after HP)?


In addition to the books you've named, in terms of approrpriate, give him a
set of EA Poe's short stories (which I have found invariably warm the
cockles of any red-blooded American boy), some of the Sherlock Holmes short
stories, ER Burroughs' Mars or Venus or Pellucidor series (which as Arthur
C. Clarke noted, one must read before one is 17), and Richard Adams'
neo-Homeric bunny rabbit epic Watership Down.

In terms of what his peers are reading, would you believe the politically
correct Berenstein Bears (popular with the more sentimental sort of social
worker) and the dismal Goosebumps series, Stephen King deep-discounted for
kiddies.

    - CMC








From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 04:59:51 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:59:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
References: <8ql9up+2d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008501c029d2$1a331440$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2460


----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Branford" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 11:26 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Chapter 11 Discussion


> Chapter 11: Aboard the Hogwarts Express
>
> This chapter starts with the triad (I do not like the word
> triumvirate

OK I'll bite - why don't you  like this perfectly servicable English
language word?

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 05:11:28 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:11:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <00e401c029d3$b9f8c320$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2461


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 2:40 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherins


>
>

> Such a lack of curiosity almost defies belief.  We know he spends time
> looking at the photo album that Hagrid assembled for him.  Why wouldn't he
> want to read the details of what happened the night his mortal enemy,
> Voldemort, killed his parents?
>
> Could JKR really be sitting on some bombshell and expect us to take the
news
> without questioning why it was withheld for so many years?  I dunno.....


I'm reminded of GeneWilder's nightmare in Young Frankenstein  - "Destiny!
Destiny! No escaping Destiny!" - by not immediately looking up his maternal
archives HP is perhaps avoiding what is his inevitable destiny - and
besides, JKR has masterfully hooked us in as readers by leaving massive
chunks of the story's background unclear, and then only gradually revealing
it to us.

As for the details of his parents' death - who knew, save James, Lily and
Voldy? Voldy was certainly eager to give his side of the story as soon as it
became feasible.

    - CMC

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 05:16:30 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:16:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
References: <8qll9p+hm7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f701c029d4$6d61b7a0$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2462


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bates" <spicoli323 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 2:39 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion



> In the very interesting JKR interview of a few weeks ago (post 2018)
> she mentions in passing that she absolutely *hated* killing Cedric.
> So why did she do it?  I've noticed before that he could have been
> kept alive with only minimal plot changes; there would be some subtle
> but important shifts in theme and the effects on Harry, but I think
> there must be some greater reason for killing Cedric than we've seen
> yet.  What kind of possible repurcussions could the death have in
> Book 5?

Cedric is the first genuine death in the unfolding narrative - this makes it
easier to set up the dramatic conflicts which will, in the later books, kill
off some of the more important characters (just as the first death in Hamlet
is garrulous ineffective Polonius, or the first death in Lear is a nameless
servant defending Gloucester).

    - CMC







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 05:22:01 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:22:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Semi-Colons & John Grisham: Literary Merit; NY Times
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com> <39CE07E2.A2B66E5@hic.net> <002101c02664$ed97af60$3d8e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <011e01c029d5$32ba0ac0$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2463


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jinx" <jinxster at cyberlass.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Semi-Colons & John Grisham: Literary Merit;
NY Times


>
> I can see the first two as being aimed at kids and young people.  But PoA
> and GoF?
> No way.  Not just at kids anyway.  The last two are just far too "adult"
(in
> a non-sexual sense) in my view.  HP may have started out relatively black
> and white, but things are getting ever greyer by the book.
>

Exactly: as HP gets older, he is compelled to deal with a greater degree of
moral complexity (e.g., showing mercy to Pettigrew will ultimately prove to
be a good thing, although by the end of Book IV, it seems to have only
resulted in several deaths, and the restroration of Voldy to a corporeal
state.

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 05:46:32 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:46:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.
References: <8qlnn7+kv9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013101c029d8$9f739200$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2464


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.



> >
> > if you know Freud, you
> know sex is *everything*--"the rest is just details".

If you "know" Freud - Oh, if only it were that simple! - as was once said of
Mozart, Freud is too easy for beginners, and too complicated for
professionals.  Hans Zinnser once noted that "Freud's high explosives have
been reworked into firecrackers for the simple-minded to burn their
fingers."

    - CMC

"Over and over again when psychoanalysis has regarded something happening in
the mind as an expression of the sexual instincts, indignant protests have
been raised to the effect that other instincts and other interests exist in
mental life beside the sexual, that one should not derive everything from
sexuality, and so on.  Well, it is a real pleasure for once to be in
agreement with one's opponents. Psycho-analysis has never forgotten that
non-sexual instincts also exist; it has built up a sharp distinction between
sexual instincts and ego-instincts; and in the face of all opposition it has
insisted, not that they arise from sexuality, but that the neuroses owe
their origin to a conflict between ego and sexuality........"

    - Freud, General Introduction to Psycho-Analysis, Chapter 22






From pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 05:55:17 2000
From: pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com (Pogonia the Harry Potter fan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:55:17 EDT
Subject: Logic puzzles in Digest Number 114
Message-ID: <F281pcRbAjXLgE6fYsj0000886a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2465

Right, the puzzle of the bottles outside the Chamber of Secrets. Even on the 
basis of the poem alone, it is possible to determine the position of both 
key bottles.  The only thing you have to assume is that there are no more 
extra-large or extra-small size bottles than are mentioned in the verse.

It was interesting at the time, and three books later is even more 
interesting, to realize that Snape was the one to develop the puzzle and 
presumably to write the instructions accompanying it.  But why didn't he 
write the directions in terse prose, or in some horribly mocking tone?. The 
fact that he invested the extra time to write a verse, and used civil 
language in it instead of insults and sarcasm, indicates that he must have 
sincerely enjoyed doing the project.
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 06:09:42 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:09:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something REALLY depressing
References: <8qrl53+kpim@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c029db$dc504a80$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2466


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Brown" <find_sam at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 9:13 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something REALLY depressing


> But the MOST depressing thing of all is that we have to wait what
> seems like uncountable months until HP#5, and years and years until
> the end of the HP series. I don't think I can wait that long! I want
> to know what happens right NOW!!! ;o)

During the Victorian era, novels were usually serialized a few chapters at a
time over a period of months or years.  Charles Dickens first novel The
Pickwick Papers, appeared in this manner.  It was tremendously popular with
the general populace, and it was said that the period between 1836-1837 was
an extended series of anxious intervals as the public awaited the next
installment of Pickwick

Should it not be a cause for rejoicing that we can replicate this excitement
at the dawn of the 21st Century?

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 06:11:34 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:11:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: various small HP factoids
References: <8qriqp+ju6g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c029dc$1eceff00$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2467



> In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at 
> MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the Gargantuan 
> Royalty Check

Was that a rip-off from Dave Barry, or did Barry steal it from her?

    - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 29 06:22:17 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:22:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's blood in Voldemort
References: <8qttrg+msr2@eGroups.com> <OE17SrdUWhn65DWG6tA00000866@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c029dd$9e0ae800$79c54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2468


----- Original Message -----
From: "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:14 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's blood in Voldemort


>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jim Ferer
>   To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:54 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Purity of Bloodline
>
>
>   Jim said - "I think, though, that *somehow* Voldemort made his ultimate
mistake when he took Harry's blood.

This is directly stated in HP-GF, p. 8-9.  Apparently any opponent of Voldy
would suffice to restore his corporeal state; but the V-man insists that it
has to be Harry (unwisely confident in his ability to defeat him).


Are their destinies bound together now?

Definitely - but they always have been (see Tom Riddle's speech in HP-CS, p.
317).  This is, IMO, the reason for Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" (p. 696,
HP-GF) - Voldy has unwisely chosen to mix his blood with HP, which can only
lead to his demise (see what Dumbledore has to say about HP's mercy toward
Wormtail in HP-PA, p. 426-27)

    - CMC




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Fri Sep 29 07:24:51 2000
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:24:51 EDT
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
Message-ID: <c9.8e53af4.27059dc3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2469


In a message dated Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:25 AM, Jim Flanagan" 
<jamesf at alumni.caltech.eduwrites:

>> I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
>
>> 9th birthday.   Can anyone tell me what
>
>> would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
>
>> group reading now (after HP)?

I'd try him on Diane Duane's marvelous: So You Want To Be a Wizard, which has 
2 sequels.




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 09:15:44 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:15:44 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com> <014c01c029ca$d554a200$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <OE25NwRC6HixqDCZx4F00000266@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2470

  --- Original Message ----- 
  From: Caius Marcius 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 2:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
  To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:34 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down


  >
  > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Susan McGee" <Schlobin at a...> wrote:
  >
  > > snip
  > > Interesting. It's pretty clear that JKR has a blind spot about same
  > > gender relationships
  > >
  > > snip
  > I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
  > PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
  > forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
  > parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
  > reading too much into it?


  In real life I provide therapy to emotionally disturbed and
  physically/sexually abused children - if I thought for one second that JKR
  condoned  any kind of adult-child sexual relationship - which has scarred,
  perhaps permanently, so many of the kids I work with - I'd join up with the
  most hardcore fundamentalist group I could find to get HP banned.

  I do think you're reading "too much" (i.e., your own little fantasies) into
  it.  Adult sexual designs upon children are invariably depraved. Lupin does
  not want to jump Harry's bones. Lupin's departure is clearly motivated by
  societal prejudice against werewolves.

      Send those flames to:

          - CMC

  Caius, I think you're misreading Susan (and I can, of course speak for her) the point is not that Lupin wants to assult HP, but the reluctance that many adults have to touch any children - even their own. the parrell is the scandal about alledged sexual abuse and scandal about Lupin being (poor bugger) a werewolf.

  have a look at some of the back posts on child abuse - we've discussed it alot because it is so central to Harry's experance between 15 months and 11 years old.

  storm



  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 09:30:32 2000
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:30:32 -0000
Subject: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
In-Reply-To: <F281pcRbAjXLgE6fYsj0000886a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8r1nfo+4igh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2471

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Pogonia the Harry Potter fan" 
<pogoniamalfoy at h...> wrote:

> It was interesting at the time, and three books later is even more 
> interesting, to realize that Snape was the one to develop the 
puzzle and 
> presumably to write the instructions accompanying it.  But why 
didn't he 
> write the directions in terse prose, or in some horribly mocking 
tone?. The 
> fact that he invested the extra time to write a verse, and used 
civil 
> language in it instead of insults and sarcasm, indicates that he 
must have 
> sincerely enjoyed doing the project.
> 

I've always wondered about Snape's poetic side.  I can't help 
thinking of his very first entry, where he talks about brewing fame 
and glory and stoppering death.  Lovely lyrical stuff!    

Snape does have a way with words, which he uses more often than not 
as weapons and as tools for manipulating people.  But perhaps he's a 
frustrated poet too?    

I found it interesting as well that Snape is the teacher Rowling 
chooses to write the logic puzzle.  Quite revealing of how his mind 
works.  Do you suppose he thought it would be logical to join with 
Dumbledore?  

-Blaise, who's been thinking too much about Snape lately.    






From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 29 11:40:55 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:40:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net> <Q.20000928124357.1EBB.3.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39D38F30.72A3778F@tidalwave.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000929124055.265B.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2472

On 28.09.2000 at 14:34:24 Pam Hugonnet wrote:

>Which brings me to a tangentially related question: if those who
>complete
>Hogwarts then become fully qualified wizards, what about those who
>do not
>get into Hogwarts?  

The way I understood it if you don't get into Hogwarts it means that
you don't have the magical potential to become a fully qualified
wizard. The only example we have met in person so far in the books is
Argus Filch. Others seem to make their way in the Muggle world like
the Weasley uncle who became an accountant.
Was it said in the books that Stan Shunpike, Tom or Madam Rosmerta
have never been to Hogwarts? I took them only as examples that not
all the Hogwarts alumni go on to work for the Ministry or Gringotts.

>Actually, I don't think Snape is a bad teacher.  He's just a very
>tough
>teacher with a bad attitude.  He's certainly a bad teacher for some
>students, but in terms of knowing his stuff and passing his
>techniques on,
>he's pretty good.

He sure knows his stuff. As for passing on his techniques I'm not so
sure about that. Hermione was an excellent student from day one. She
certainly profits from Snape's lessons, but she doesn't give him much
opportunity to put her down. Neville would certainly have a thing or
two to say about Snape's abilities as a teacher. You don't learn much
if your teacher does nothing but humiliate you and the mere thought
of him makes you sick with fear like the thought of my math teacher
in 8th grade, may he rot in a dark and deep place. 

>Both Lockhart and Hermione's overwork serve as object lessons for the
>student's at Hogwarts.  By  allowing Lockhart to teach and thereby
>expose
>his lack of skills, Dumbledore was able to debunk a false hero in the
>wizarding world and to teach the students to be careful of
>imposters.  

That seemed to be a welcome by-product, but I doubt that was what he
was hired for. The students learned a lesson for life, but also had a
lot of catching up to do with Lupin and Moody.

>As for Hermione, the only way for her to learn about her limitations
>was for
>her to try it her way and live with the consequences.  She would not
>have
>responded well to hearing that she couldn't take that course load
>because
>the teachers felt it too much, she need to learn it for herself.

You have a point here. Still I think Hogwarts goes a bit far in their
"If it doesn't kill the students it will make them stronger" approach.

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 29 11:40:55 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:40:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldy, the family man
References: <8r0bng+jnrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Q.20000929124055.9AC.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2473

On 28.09.2000 at 21:03:44 Kelley  wrote:

>True, but I was meaning when he underwent the changes that made him 
>unrecognizable as TR.  I would have no idea if Vold would be capable 
>of fathering children after all those changes.  Maybe. 

I doubt it. There's nothing human left in him. What I meant was that
even before he completely shed his Tom-Riddle-persona he was a man
with a mission who didn't just idle around after school trying to
sort out what he was going to do with his life, sowing his wild oats
without consideration. 

>Maybe instead of the "muggle-born" thing being a 'statement', it's 
>just the set-up to some big twist.  As for Vold, I could see him 
>wanting immortality through an offspring, but I can just as easily 
>see him being self-centered and wanting to be the only powerful one, 
>not wanting to share this even with his own son. 

Wanting to be the Number One and Only sounds very much like
Voldemort. That's why I think he would be careful not to father a
rival.
  
>> I'm sure JKR is going somewhere with it, but so far I have no idea
>> where that could be. 
>> 

>Same here.  Could be just a big coincidence--doubt it, or of course, 
>the evil 'red herring'.

That's what makes the series so great. :-)

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From rusdin at optonline.net  Fri Sep 29 10:58:10 2000
From: rusdin at optonline.net (Rob Usdin)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:58:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
In-Reply-To: <c9.8e53af4.27059dc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJEIEMLIEMFHEDGEGGEMPCAAA.rusdin@optonline.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2474

Try:

The Neverending Story by Michael Ende
The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster
A Wrinkle in Time (and its sequels) my Madeline L'Engle
Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis (you can get the whole set of paper backs
for like $20)
Holes by Louis Sachar

None of them "hip" books (well Holes is still relativly new) - but all
classics that are right at his reading level if he's finished the HP books.
If he found the HP books HARD also try:

Tales Of A 4th Grade nothing (and its sequels) by Judy Blume

--*Rob



-----Original Message-----
From: SHENmagic at aol.com [mailto:SHENmagic at aol.com]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:25 AM
To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader



In a message dated Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:25 AM, Jim Flanagan"
<jamesf at alumni.caltech.eduwrites:

>> I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
>
>> 9th birthday.   Can anyone tell me what
>
>> would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
>
>> group reading now (after HP)?

I'd try him on Diane Duane's marvelous: So You Want To Be a Wizard, which
has
2 sequels.



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com







From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 11:24:53 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:24:53 -0500
Subject: GoF Chapter 11 Discussion
References: <8ql9up+2d9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D47C05.919B136F@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2475

Hi

Simon Branford wrote:

> It could be argued that this meeting with Amos is an indication that
> Cedric is going to be the one to die at the end of the book. This is
> the second meeting with some of the Diggory family and it is this
> that is turning Cedric into the 'character we care for'. We are
> seeing how his father reacts to help an old friend and extend this
> characteristic to be one that Cedric also possess.

Yeah . . . hindsight is 20/20 as they say.  In going back through GoF,
it's clear to most of us that JKR was subtly (or perhaps not so subtly)
developing Cedric's character more, even by use of introducing his
father into the narrative more.  I do think that Amos' character
highlights Cedric's good traits (Amos seemed intent on building up his
son at Harry's expense earlier -- this serves as a contrast to Cedric's
humility).

> This time Harry, Ron and Hermione pick a carriage in the middle of
> the train.

This was interesting, eh?  I think it could be an indication that he's a
little more used to his fame & settled into Hogwarts more.  It could
also be that they all arrived with a bit of time to spare, didn't they?
In the past, it seems they're rushing to get on the train with only 2-3
minutes to board.

> Where do the Weasley's live? Most indication and comments, based on
> the first three books, has been that they live in the Devon area but
> suddenly they are using taxis to travel, if the hypothesis is
> correct, a journey of 200 miles. Did someone else pay for the journey?

I wonder if this is just a JKR slip-up.  All other indications seem to
be that she was basing the Burrow more in the Exeter area.  It may be
that she simply didn't take taxi costs into account.  Obviously, they
should have travelled by Brit-Rail.  They would have probably been less
conspicuous on BritRail too.

Penny (making a vain attempt to "catch up" on this weeks' emails before
leaving town)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 29 11:30:04 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:30:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S/D (Was: setting the cat down
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com> <014c01c029ca$d554a200$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39D47D3C.33E22FB3@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2476



Caius Marcius wrote:

>
> > I am wondering why you would say this...I thought the situation in
> > PoA where Lupin seems to be afraid to even touch Harry and then (fast
> > forward)has to leave the school because of  potential scandal and
> > parental outrage was sensitive and  subtle and very moving...Or am I
> > reading too much into it?
>
>
> I do think you're reading "too much" (i.e., your own little fantasies) into
> it.  Adult sexual designs upon children are invariably depraved. Lupin does
> not want to jump Harry's bones. Lupin's departure is clearly motivated by
> societal prejudice against werewolves.

I agree with you in rejecting the idea of acceptability of sexual relationships
between adults and children but that's not the way I interpreted Pippin's
remark (who I believe made the original remark that Susan responded to).
Pippin may correct me if I'm interpreting the intent of the original remark
incorrectly, but what I saw in that scene was that Lupin wanted to comfort
Harry, yes, but restrained himself for several reasons.  One was that, as
someone said (Amanda maybe?) he knows that Harry is a proud boy, and the last
thing he wants to do is to break down in front of someone he respects.
Secondly, Lupin is a werewolf and has trained himself, perhaps, to restrain his
own impulse toward physical interactions with people.

But thirdly, Lupin is a teacher.  And teachers have to be sensitive to parental
fears that if they touch the kids their teach, they're some kind of perverts
who are coming on to their kids.  (Maybe Ebony could speak to this a little?)
Maybe it's more an issue in America, where there have been several scandals
about teachers who did cross the line with their students, making everyone
paranoid and gun-shy about litigation.

So Lupin was perhaps concerned, to some extent, about "what people might
think."  He's trained himself that way, as a werewolf in hiding.  And despite
everything, despite the fact that he is a wonderful teacher who was doing his
best, his cover was blown and he had to leave school because, among other
things, of "what people might think."  And that, to me, IS sensitive and subtle
and very moving.

IMHO.

Peg




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 11:30:16 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:30:16 -0500
Subject: Harry's Family History
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEMECCAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <39CE60D8.D1E3AA6C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D47D48.EFB958F6@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2477

Hi

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> I always get the feeling that Harry holds his mental construct of his
> parents delicately, like a piece of jewelry one treasures and doesn't
> wear so it won't get hurt. And he's still adjusting to the parts he
> *does* know.

Well said.

> He still has only known the truth about them for four years, and it's
> been a pretty busy four years, and the only time he's not busy is when
> he's at the Dursleys', when investigation is pretty much out of the
> question.

I still find it hard to believe that Hermione hasn't done some digging
around.  But, it does serve the plot for us all to be in the dark along
with Harry so . . .

> Nor has he had a lot of quality time with the best source for most of
> this sort of intimate information, Sirius. I'm betting this kind of
> thing will be a lot more developed in the later books.

I think that is *exactly* why Harry won't live with (or spend a
tremendous amount of time with) Sirius in the next book or 2.  It would
be completely implausible for him to live with Sirius & *not* find out
all sorts of information that JKR doesn't want him or us knowing just
yet.  Sirius knew his parents best and probably has as good an idea as
anyone other than those who were there as to what happened that
Halloween night in 1981.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From donnadr at gte.net  Fri Sep 29 11:30:57 2000
From: donnadr at gte.net (Donna Rae)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:30:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something REALLY depressing
References: <8qrl53+kpim@eGroups.com> <002601c029db$dc504a80$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <007701c02a08$bd7f10a0$e99c0b3f@donnadozier>

No: HPFGUIDX 2478

As an avid reader of both Stephen King and Anne Rice, 'anxious intervals' are my world.  I've anxiously waited through The Vampire Chronicles, The Mayfair Witches, and one of the worst is Stephen's Dark Tower series (six years between two of the books).  Waiting for the next book does have it's good points.  It almost forces you to reread the previous stories as the author approaches the release of the next book.  

Donna Rae
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Caius Marcius 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 2:09 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] something REALLY depressing



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Sam Brown" <find_sam at hotmail.com>
  To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 9:13 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] something REALLY depressing


  > But the MOST depressing thing of all is that we have to wait what
  > seems like uncountable months until HP#5, and years and years until
  > the end of the HP series. I don't think I can wait that long! I want
  > to know what happens right NOW!!! ;o)

  During the Victorian era, novels were usually serialized a few chapters at a
  time over a period of months or years.  Charles Dickens first novel The
  Pickwick Papers, appeared in this manner.  It was tremendously popular with
  the general populace, and it was said that the period between 1836-1837 was
  an extended series of anxious intervals as the public awaited the next
  installment of Pickwick

  Should it not be a cause for rejoicing that we can replicate this excitement
  at the dawn of the 21st Century?

      - CMC


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 11:47:50 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:47:50 -0500
Subject: Insecurity & Hermione
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39D48166.578B6C36@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2479

Hi --

Dr M M wrote:

> I also think Hermione is just as insecure as he is.  If she wasn't
> would she really be bragging about her knowledge in class the way she
> does?

I don't have the perception that Hermione "brags" about her smarts, in
class or out of class.  She's always all too happy to volunteer the
right answers, in class & out of class.  But, in my mind, that's not
quite the same thing as "bragging."  We know Snape thinks she's a
"show-off," but the other profs don't seem to share that view.

I'd be very interested in any specific examples of this behavior.  I'm
doing the Hermione character description later (and the Hermione
character FAQ now).  She's my 2nd favorite character and perhaps I'm
biased in her favor to some extent.  I do agree that she has her own
insecurities, but I don't have the impression that one of her faults is
being a braggart per se.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 11:59:06 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:59:06 -0500
Subject: Ron
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEODCIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <39D48409.35CB877F@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2480

Hi

Simon Branford wrote:

> Can I ask for people to post chapter number for quotes and comments
> and not page numbers?

Aggh -- sorry.  *I* should have said chapter references.  Sorry Simon.

> Ron is Harry's best friend.

I think Hermione is also Harry's best friend.  I think Ron would say
that his best friends are Harry and Hermione.  I think Hermione would
say her best friends are Harry and Ron.  I don't see there being a
greater bond between Harry and Ron.  There is certainly a *different*
bond because they're both male and they're still adolescent boys at this
point.  But, the notion that Hermione is a lesser member of the Trio
somehow is just . . . wrong.  BTW, I'm not directing that comment
specifically at Simon -- just making a point from some recent
discussions this week.

> Due to this, especially when looking at all the things Ron
> does not have (no money, family pressures for him to succeed at school
> and Quidditch and I think the list could be even longer), people feel
> that Ron should have Hermione. This is the main reason I am against
> Harry / Hermione. It is that I feel Ron would be really hurt by the
> other two getting together and that again he would have come second to
> Harry.

What I object to here is the idea that people think Hermione should be
Ron's consolation prize.  Do her feelings count for nothing in the
equation?  I'm not saying I'm absolutely right and that she *does* care
for Harry and not Ron.  But, what if she does?  I've seen several spins
on this same basic point that really left me feeling that people
believed that because Ron has "chosen" Hermione, they should be
together.  End of story.  No care whatever for what her feelings might
be.

Okay, made my point(s) for the day.

BTW, because I will be computer-less for the next 4 days, I'm changing
my settings to webview only to avoid a full to bursting inbox when I
return.  I'll make a valiant effort to catch up again when I return.  A
few more messages in my inbox & then I must get ready --

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 12:13:14 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:13:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qvmcq+p3ub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D4875A.C27DD407@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2481

Hi --

eggplant88 at hotmail.com wrote:

> You can listen to an interview of JKR at
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/djs/mayo.shtml
>
> The interviewer say that obviously we can assume Ron Hermione and
> Harry to still be around in book 7 she says "no, you can't assume
> that at all" When asked why stop at 7 books she says " I'm not saying
> I won't write another book about the world" note: she does not say
> about
> harry potter "but only if I have a burning desire to do so in 10
> years time. I've always had my story planed and 7 is where the
> story ends, Harry dies obviously" long pause "I'm joking"
> even longer pause "or am I?"

Well . . . *of course* she's not going to tell anyone whether or not one
or more of the 3 main characters will die before the end of the series.
I had seen that interview as well.  I think Simon did a synopsis of it
back at Yahoo. Of course she would joke around about it.

I still don't think she'll kill off Harry at the end of Book 7 though.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 12:19:33 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:19:33 -0500
Subject: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
References: <8qrq43+2qtg@eGroups.com> <39D1E280.7AE96F36@hic.net> <Q.20000928124356.D0A.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <39D488D5.EF195749@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2482

Hi --

Christina Gross wrote:

> But it's being Ron's last resort that hurts her feelings. I don't
> think there's any way to put a non-personal twist on that. He takes
> her for granted and assumes that nobody else could be interested in
> her.

She'd have probably been personally hurt if *anyone* used her as a last
resort, Ron or Harry or anyone else.  I think she was pissed off that he
thought he could try to find a prettier date & then when he couldn't
that he could just ask good old Hermione, waiting in the wings.  She'd
have had the same reaction if Harry treated her that way.  Ron just
exhibited more boorish behavior than Harry.

> >Farmer in the Dell, Farmer in the Dell . . . heigh ho the derry o,
> >the >Farmer in the Dell.  . . . .
>
> Can somebody please bridge the cultural gap and tell me what this
> means?

The Farmer in the Dell Theory (mine -- dubbed so by Ebony & her
students) is that Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and Harry
likes either noone or someone outside the Trio.

> So Ron's way out of his identity crisis is a little woman who sits at
> his feet looking up at him with adoration? If he can't work out his
> problems for himself I doubt that is going to work. He needs to find
> an area he can excell in and learn to respect himself.

Agreed that he needs to find an area to excel in.  Is he really going to
do that if his romantic interest is constantly outshining him &
triggering his jealous insecurities at every turn?  No - I don't think
Ron needs an "adoring little woman."  But, I think his romantic partner
shouldn't be a clear superstar.  I think he should have a romance where
he & his partner are on more or less even footing.  To be second fiddle
in yet another area of his life is clearly not what Ron needs.  Or . . .
he needs to work through his problems FIRST and then try to have a
romance with a strong successful person like Hermione.  But, it won't
work unless & until he sorts things out within himself.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linsenma at hic.net  Fri Sep 29 12:24:12 2000
From: linsenma at hic.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:24:12 -0500
Subject: Serialization & Anticipation
References: <8qrl53+kpim@eGroups.com> <002601c029db$dc504a80$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39D489EC.7319351E@hic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2483

Hi

Caius Marcius wrote:

> During the Victorian era, novels were usually serialized a few
> chapters at a time over a period of months or years.  Charles Dickens
> first novel The Pickwick Papers, appeared in this manner.  It was
> tremendously popular with the general populace, and it was said that
> the period between 1836-1837 was an extended series of anxious
> intervals as the public awaited the next installment of Pickwick
>
> Should it not be a cause for rejoicing that we can replicate this
> excitement at the dawn of the 21st Century?

I think it's just wonderful!  I'm really thrilled to be reading these as
they come out.  I got in on the game a bit late -- having read all of
the first 3 within a week in January, but am glad I can savor all the
fanfare & anticipation for the last 4 volumes.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 13:29:24 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:29:24 -0500
Subject: Vokdy's age
References: <970208197.13978@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D49934.F21D65EA@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2484

> that since Voldemort isn't that old and some people still
> > remember him when he was at Hogwarts, ...
> 
> Well, he's in his sixties. 

Ahem - if Voldy is 16 in 1942, which is 50 years before CoS, he is
technically 76 in 1992, although granted he would be, say, 65 when
discorporated.  He could also be effectively physically younger if (1)
wizards age slower than Muggles as has been suggested and (2) his
anti-death spells are also anti-aging (and woudln't it be a bummer for
him if they WEREN'T?)

-Brooks



From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 13:32:05 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:32:05 -0500
Subject: Cedric
References: <970208197.13978@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D499D6.D146C0C@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2485

>Cedric is the first genuine death in the unfolding narrative 

Ummm - what about the groundskeeper?  What about Moaning Myrtle?  What
about Harry's parents, and even Quirrel?  Cedric is the first death of
somebody *on stage* whom we have had several chapters to grow fond of.



From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 13:43:08 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:43:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Logic puzzles in Digest Number 114
References: <F281pcRbAjXLgE6fYsj0000886a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39D49C6C.D03BF75B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2486

Pogonia the Harry Potter fan wrote:

> It was interesting at the time, and three books later is even more
> interesting, to realize that Snape was the one to develop the puzzle and
> presumably to write the instructions accompanying it.  But why didn't he
> write the directions in terse prose, or in some horribly mocking tone?. The
> fact that he invested the extra time to write a verse, and used civil
> language in it instead of insults and sarcasm, indicates that he must have
> sincerely enjoyed doing the project.

Snape doesn't breathe insults and sarcasm a la "Toads and Diamonds." He's a
bitter man, holds grudges for eons, and treats those he dislikes badly with
dedicated intensity, but he's also clearly intelligent, focused, and very good
at what he does. I also get the feeling he doesn't waste time or energy.
Creating this barrier put him against a 'virtual' opponent, one he did not
necessarily dislike, and let him focus on the details of his task. And it
probably was enjoyable to put together---potions are *about* details. I bet
potions people are as anal as editors. As readers, remember, we have not yet
been shown Snape in a non-turbulent situation among people he does *not*
dislike.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 13:44:55 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:44:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: various small HP factoids
References: <8qriqp+ju6g@eGroups.com> <003b01c029dc$1eceff00$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39D49CD7.DE0A4C61@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2487

Caius Marcius wrote:

> > In an older episode, she had a display of Harry Potter books at
> > MadWimmin books where the title was *Harry Potter and the Gargantuan
> > Royalty Check
>
> Was that a rip-off from Dave Barry, or did Barry steal it from her?

I think the consensus was that Dave Barry came afterwards. His column was
fairly recent. And I don't consider it so much a theft, as a nod at a fellow
biting wit.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 13:47:12 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:47:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's blood in Voldemort
References: <8qttrg+msr2@eGroups.com> <OE17SrdUWhn65DWG6tA00000866@hotmail.com> <00ba01c029dd$9e0ae800$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39D49D60.E3405973@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2488

Caius Marcius wrote:

> This is directly stated in HP-GF, p. 8-9.

Caius, I don't think you were around for the post requesting book and chapter,
not page reference. A lot of the editions differ as to page. And at least with
book 1, even the titles differ, so I tend to identify it as Book X rather than
use the abbreviation.

By the way, welcome to the list.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 13:55:32 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:55:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's blood in Voldemort
References: <8qttrg+msr2@eGroups.com> <OE17SrdUWhn65DWG6tA00000866@hotmail.com> <00ba01c029dd$9e0ae800$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <39D49F53.C5C15F37@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2489

Caius Marcius wrote:

> >   Jim said - "I think, though, that *somehow* Voldemort made his ultimate
> mistake when he took Harry's blood.
>
> This is directly stated in HP-GF, p. 8-9.  Apparently any opponent of Voldy
> would suffice to restore his corporeal state; but the V-man insists that it
> has to be Harry (unwisely confident in his ability to defeat him).

His insistence on Harry, for whatever reason, does not constitute a direct
statement that this is an ultimate mistake on his part. Think about it---why
would Voldemort directly state that this is his ultimate mistake? All he says is
that he has his reasons for using the boy. I think those reasons have to do with
removing whatever protection Lily imparted, by incorporating part of Harry into
himself, and thereby coming to share part of whatever makes Harry a threat to
him. I think his ultimate mistake is rather underestimating Harry himself; were
Harry a lesser opponent, Voldemort's strategy of taking his blood might well be
effective.Are their destinies bound together now?

> Definitely - but they always have been (see Tom Riddle's speech in HP-CS, p.
> 317).  This is, IMO, the reason for Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" (p. 696,
> HP-GF) - Voldy has unwisely chosen to mix his blood with HP, which can only
> lead to his demise (see what Dumbledore has to say about HP's mercy toward
> Wormtail in HP-PA, p. 426-27)

Again, I think you jump to conclusions. It will most probably lead to his
demise, but I don't think it could *only* do so. I think Dumbledore's gleam is
because the taking of Harry's blood opens the door of possibility. But it is
merely a flash, of "something like triumph," gone very quickly, and Dumbledore
then looks older and wearier than Harry's seen him---implying that there's still
quite a struggle yet to come.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 14:03:39 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:03:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Insecurity & Hermione
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com> <39D48166.578B6C36@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39D4A13B.DA0103EA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2490

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> I do agree that she has her own
> insecurities, but I don't have the impression that one of her faults is
> being a braggart per se.

Actually, she reminds me of my father, who was also very intelligent.
Lacking a bit in common sense, but very intelligent. He'd go on about stuff,
but he had an abiding belief that everyone wanted to know stuff in the depth
he did. I think she just likes to *know* things. The corollary is using and
sharing the information, which I know firsthand can get irritating, but the
motivation is the *knowing,* not the sharing.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 14:07:38 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:07:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <NEBBJEIEMLIEMFHEDGEGGEMPCAAA.rusdin@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <39D4A22A.74AE0B57@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2491

Rob Usdin wrote:

> The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster

OOOO I forgot about that one. Yes, yes, that one. And read it yourself, too.

--Amanda




From jciesla at madbbs.com  Fri Sep 29 14:58:56 2000
From: jciesla at madbbs.com (Julia L. Ciesla)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:58:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] series/growing up
In-Reply-To: <011e01c029d5$32ba0ac0$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
References: <8qhheo+i4bu@eGroups.com> <39CE07E2.A2B66E5@hic.net> <002101c02664$ed97af60$3d8e7ed4@johnmitt>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000929105856.007bb820@mail.madbbs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2492

/lurk mode

Hello All!

I posted once before I believe... awhile ago. This is such a fantastic
discussion group!  I don't post more because I actually don't have time to
re-read all the HP books. But I do remember so much from the first time
around that I'm tremendously enjoying everyone's thoughts! 

I was getting itchy about reading Book 5 as well.. that was a great
observation about the Pickwick Papers.  One thought I had:  the series is
now at a book a year.  Maybe it's intentional, maybe not.. but if the
series is getting darker book by book.. the original target audience would
be getting older as the books come out.. and therefore, would be mature
enough to handle the details.  (Sorry about grammar).  One thing that gets
in the way of this is that the books are thought to be more aimed at the
11-13 year old set.. right? Although, by many observations.. it's the
grown-ups who are enthralled!

I just think that if I was 10 when the first book came out (1995?)...was
still interested.. I would be 15 when I read GoF.. so while Cedric's death
would be a blow.. it wouldn't have the same devastating effect than if I
was that 1o year old reading it.  So the kids that were 10 when the first
book came out (and assuming a book a year is published), would be 17 when
book 7 comes out.  I wonder how many kids read HP when it first came out
and are still interested?  I think most of the fans today got ahold of the
books after SS and CS came out... maybe even after PA was released.  

That's my rambling thought.  LOL.. pick it apart.

Julia 


>> I can see the first two as being aimed at kids and young people.  But PoA
>> and GoF?
>> No way.  Not just at kids anyway.  The last two are just far too "adult"
>(in
>> a non-sexual sense) in my view.  HP may have started out relatively black
>> and white, but things are getting ever greyer by the book.
>>
>
>Exactly: as HP gets older, he is compelled to deal with a greater degree of
>moral complexity (e.g., showing mercy to Pettigrew will ultimately prove to
>be a good thing, although by the end of Book IV, it seems to have only
>resulted in several deaths, and the restroration of Voldy to a corporeal
>state.
>
>    - CMC





From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 29 15:27:41 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:27:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron
Message-ID: <200009291606.e8TG6eo07139@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2493

Let's face it,
>>that's what Hermione and Ron represent in the triad.  Hermione is the
>>intellectual part, Ron is the emotional bit.  Don't know what Harry is, Soul
>>maybe.
>>
>>Jinx
>>
>I think in a lot of mythology that triad is often Heart, Head and Sword.
>Soul works too.
>
>Lori


I've always thought of them as Id, Superego, and Ego myself.




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 16:09:45 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:09:45 -0000
Subject: Borders
Message-ID: <8r2es9+7np8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2494

1) Borders bookstores ( for those overseas, a major US chain)
has a new 'gift certificate' card, $20 denomination, with the US GoF 
cover portion showing Harry's (and Cedric's) faces.

2) Borders September flyer also says 'prepay for a Harry Potter 2001 
calendar and get a coupon for 15% off any other 2001 calendar' - not 
available online - also not repeated in the October flyer.

3) Borders also has entry forms for a 'Create your own World of 
Narnia' Art contest, sponsored by HarperCollins Children's Books and 
Chick-fil-A, benefitting Boys & Girls Clubs of America, open to
anyone under 18.  This is in celebration of the 50th anniversary of 
_The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe'.

4) Finally, at least my bigger local Borders cafe's drink for October 
is a 'Pumpkin Smoothie' and the 'Valos coffee of the month' is 
'Pumpkin Spice', for those who thought the Pumpkin drink in the books 
was interesting.

Note - all trademarked names are property of their registered owners.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 16:12:04 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:12:04 -0000
Subject: Recommended Book for 4th Grader
In-Reply-To: <c9.8e53af4.27059dc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8r2f0k+fm42@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2495

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, SHENmagic at a... wrote:

> I'd try him on Diane Duane's marvelous: So You Want To Be a Wizard, 
which has 
> 2 sequels.

3 actually counting _A Wizard Abroad_, plus _The Book of Night With 
Moon_ where the kids make a cameo, and its sequel _To Visit the
Queen_  
- the last two are about Cat wizards.

-Brooks




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 16:14:15 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:14:15 -0000
Subject: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
In-Reply-To: <8r1nfo+4igh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r2f4n+4a2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2496

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
wrote:

> I found it interesting as well that Snape is the teacher Rowling 
> chooses to write the logic puzzle.  Quite revealing of how his mind 
> works.  Do you suppose he thought it would be logical to join with 
> Dumbledore?  


Ummm.  Actually we have no hint at all that it was SNAPE who wrote
the puzzle/poem - he could have just done the potions - Dumbledore 
might have made the puzzle.  Insufficient data to state one way or
the other.

-Brooks




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep 29 17:18:20 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:18:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Borders
Message-ID: <v02140b36b5fa7e386d98@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2497


This is your friendly neighborhood Borders employee speaking.

>1) Borders bookstores ( for those overseas, a major US chain)
>has a new 'gift certificate' card, $20 denomination, with the US GoF
>cover portion showing Harry's (and Cedric's) faces.
>
These have been around for almost a month.  The gift cards are wonderfully
conveninient, much more so than a paper gift certificate.  They're usable
at any Borders or at borders.com and retain the unused balance.

>2) Borders September flyer also says 'prepay for a Harry Potter 2001
>calendar and get a coupon for 15% off any other 2001 calendar' - not
>available online - also not repeated in the October flyer.
>
The HP calendars should be coming in, I'm told, sometimes in mid October.
I already have mine reserved.  There are two, a wall calendar and a
day-to-day cube calendar.  The deal is, reserve one now, and *when you pick
it up and pay for it* you'll receive a coupon for 10% off your next
purchase, whatever it is.  I'm told that Borders will also be getting other
HP merchandise exclusive to us, like mugs and pennants and such.

>4) Finally, at least my bigger local Borders cafe's drink for October
>is a 'Pumpkin Smoothie' and the 'Valos coffee of the month' is
>'Pumpkin Spice', for those who thought the Pumpkin drink in the books
>was interesting.
>
Actually the Pumpkin Spice coffee (which is really good) was our coffee of
the month for September.

I might also note that the following books are coming out soon, like in the
next month or so:

"Writing: A Memoir" by Stephen King
"The Last Precinct" by Patricia Cornwell
"The Prodigal Summer" by Barbara Kingsolver

Lori, bookstore goddess




**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
***********************************************************





From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Sep 29 15:56:09 2000
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:56:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Schafer
Message-ID: <200009291635.e8TGZdo11528@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2498

>One thing that I did enjoy were the belly laughs she unintentionally
>provides with howlers such as: "Pettigrew's missing finger symbolizes
>his inability to make his point effectively."  (p. 66)

My personal favorite is where she says the McGonagall is the "fairy godmother 
figure".  Has she even read the books?

Kathy




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 29 16:50:17 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:50:17 -0000
Subject: Lupin and physical contact
In-Reply-To: <39D47D3C.33E22FB3@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8r2h89+ambf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2499

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
[snip]
>what I saw in that scene was that Lupin wanted to comfort
> Harry, yes, but restrained himself for several reasons.  One was 
that, as
> someone said (Amanda maybe?) he knows that Harry is a proud boy, 
and the last
> thing he wants to do is to break down in front of someone he 
respects.
> Secondly, Lupin is a werewolf and has trained himself, perhaps, to 
restrain his
> own impulse toward physical interactions with people.
> 
> But thirdly, Lupin is a teacher.  And teachers have to be sensitive 
to parental
> fears that if they touch the kids their teach, they're some kind of 
perverts
> who are coming on to their kids.  (Maybe Ebony could speak to this 
a little?)
> Maybe it's more an issue in America, where there have been several 
scandals
> about teachers who did cross the line with their students, making 
everyone
> paranoid and gun-shy about litigation.

I agree with Peg.  When I first read that passage, it made me think 
of the whole British *keep a stiff upper lip* attitude.  For a 
teenage boy to cry, and/or be physically comforted by an adult, in 
many cultures is seen (at least by teenage boys) as a sign of 
weakness.  My impressions of British culture is that it is simply not 
socially acceptable for men to cry - of course that is true, but I 
think to a somewhat lesser degree, here in the U.S. too.  Of course, 
my ideas about social and cultural mores in Britian come mostly from 
the novels I read, most of which are old.  But I am curious about the 
cultural differences between the U.S. and Britian and how they 
influence our (people on this group I mean) understanding of the 
books.  I think that probably the majority of us are from the U.S., 
with a large minority from Britian and Canada and a few from other 
English-speaking countries and a few English-speaking Germans, etc.  
Therefore the dominate trend in these discussions will be the 
American interpretation.

Another example of differing interpretations is peoples attitudes 
towards the harshness of Snape and the bullying of Draco.  Most of 
the Americans seem appalled that this sort of behavior would be 
allowed.  While that sort of behavior IS certainly appalling, it is 
possible that it is simply more acceptable in Britian than in the 
U.S.  It is certainly the type of behavior commonly depicted in 
novels about British boarding schools.  Also, there were some posts 
from people saying that Hermione should not have been allowed to take 
so many classes in PoA, but that attitude seems to reflect a very 
American attitude towards education (where we treat kids like idiots, 
spoon feed them garbage that they regurgitate on standardized tests, 
and then we are shocked when they dont know how to read).  Of course 
that is an exaggeration, but the traditional British attitude seems 
to lean more towards *force them to study themselves to death or 
theyll never learn a thing*.

So, my friends from across the pond out there -- am I right in saying 
that us Americans are misinterpreting some of the characters 
motivations due our different cultural perspective, or is my 
understanding of British culture hopelessly out-of-date?

-- Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 29 16:57:50 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:57:50 -0000
Subject: Harry's Family History
In-Reply-To: <39D47D48.EFB958F6@hic.net>
Message-ID: <8r2hme+nl7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2500

Harry may not want to know more about his parents - he may find it 
too painful to think about.  In SS/PS, he drags himself away from the 
visions of his family in the Mirror of Erised by telling himself that 
if he wants to help win the Quidditch cup he cant think about the 
past.  When he takes out the photo album (in PoA) to look at the 
pictures of Sirius, it is implied that he hasnt looked at it in 
awhile.  Maybe he is purposely avoiding learning or even thinking 
about his past, because it is so painful to think about that it would 
interfere with his life at Hogwarts.  Maybe when Hermione comes to 
him and says *I just read The History of the Dark Years by Portenia 
Forebodius and it says that your parents.....*  Harry tells her to 
shut up.

-- Joywitch




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 29 17:58:51 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:58:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader
References: <c9.8e53af4.27059dc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <025c01c02a3e$edb56180$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2501

Hmmm.  That book is being auctioned currently, here on yahoo, with the 3-1 setting (all three of the books in one volume).  Perhaps that might not be a bad buy!

Onto stories, I adored the rec about Neverwhere--picked it up, and after reading it, realized the only reason I was a bit confused watching the series was the fact I must've missed the beginning of it!  All the other elements fell into place as the book unveiled them--so in my mind, I saw the actors in the places of the characters (wonder if that's going to happen with HP?) as I read.  The doorway, Jess, etc, all were patterned after the BBC series.  Wonder if you get a copy of that somewhere, hmm?


Just a thought.

:)

Currently re-reading SS and making post it notes in it for things that catch my eye.  Have about 25 now at chapter six~will post them all in one big post, in case anyone else wants to dissect them or ignore them!

Dee    


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: SHENmagic at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 2:24 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Recommended Book for 4th Grader



  In a message dated Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:25 AM, Jim Flanagan" 
  <jamesf at alumni.caltech.eduwrites:

  >> I'm wondering what would be an appropriate book to get him for his
  >
  >> 9th birthday.   Can anyone tell me what
  >
  >> would be more appropriate?  What other books are kids in his peer
  >
  >> group reading now (after HP)?

  I'd try him on Diane Duane's marvelous: So You Want To Be a Wizard, which has 
  2 sequels.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 09:23:55 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:23:55 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <39D2B4F9.20177728@ibm.net> <OE9vN3qljWwY0VnkB4l000002c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE2623ey8REzOuMHw8l00001389@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2502

   He's incredibly powerful - but if he used it to full extent he could make things go *just so* and everything would be perfect - but who learns anything? and what a sterile world. I'm having an echo of some kids book here - anyone know whick one? (not the just so bit

  ok, so I remember which book it is - its the end of "the dark is rising" sequence, the speech Merriman give to Will, the bad news is that you are going to have to take my word for it because I can't find it to quote. I swear someone is coming in to my house and stealing my books - first "chewing gum rescue" and now this!

  storm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 08:42:46 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:42:46 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where were they when they got back from Moldy  Volde's rebirth? and Portakey
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com> <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net> <00bf01c028d4$c9b16d80$a78f7ed4@johnmitt> <OE546uPDVniSnRMWuLn00003369@hotmail.com> <39D36B00.56CC5075@texas.net>
Message-ID: <OE17FRJrzdDW6lCPx33000002b5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2503

thanks for that Amanda - will have to re-read whenI get my books back. I coun't work out why it took him back but that makes sence. Imagine if Voldemort had turned up at the school - how truely terrifing

storm
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda Lewanski 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 2:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Where were they when they got back from Moldy Volde's rebirth? and Portakey


  storm stanford wrote:

  >     Now I have wondered about this a few times, and also about the portakey. It seemes that portakeys only work at spcific times (the 7 past 5 from stoadshead) and remember how they are all standing around while Mr W or Mr D (forget who) counts to second down to 7 past 5. And, given that at the World cup they were being thrown away once they had been used at the world cup they do seem like a single ticket. that aside it must have been a deluxe portakey to work at any old time (like an all day ticket)

  Okay, I can help you here, because this bugged me too. In Barty Crouch's confession under the Veritaserum, he says he had to "turn the cup into a portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master." I presume it's a variant of the portkey spell. I also presume that built into the portkey spell is the return. Remember, the World Cup portkeys also took everyone home, presumably at a specific time. So the function of the spell is "Take/Return", but you can specify the details--time, touch, etc. The Triwizard Cup was set to
  "Take/Return" at a touch, didn't matter whose. And I believe somewhere it says it was supposed to return Voldemort to Hogwarts, newly raised and rarin' to go.

  --Amanda


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 29 19:09:09 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:09:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Insecurity & Hermione
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com> <39D48166.578B6C36@hic.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000929200909.584.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2504

On 29.09.2000 at 06:47:50 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

>I don't have the perception that Hermione "brags" about her smarts,
>in
>class or out of class.  She's always all too happy to volunteer the
>right answers, in class & out of class.  But, in my mind, that's not
>quite the same thing as "bragging."  We know Snape thinks she's a
>"show-off," but the other profs don't seem to share that view.

I don't think either that bragging is the right word for what
Hermione does. She is insecure and hides behind a bossy attitude,
especially in SS/PS. She grew up knowing that she was somehow
different from everybody else. When the letter from Hogwarts arrived
she finally found a place where she fits in, but many of her fellow
students have an eleven year headstart on her. If you find a place
you belong after not quite fitting in all your life the last thing
you want is being an outsider again because of lack of skill or
knowledge. 

Hermione is probably the only student of her year who has read all
the books on her school list before she ever boards the Hogwarts
Express, not to mention 'Hogwarts - A History'. When she is always
the first to raise her hand in class she tells the teachers "Yes, I
know how to do this and therefore I belong here." I also found the
reason interesting she gave for taking Muggle studies. She wants to
look at her "old world" from the point of view of her "new people".

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From Changeling at darcy.inka.de  Fri Sep 29 19:09:09 2000
From: Changeling at darcy.inka.de (Christina Gross)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:09:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
References: <8qrq43+2qtg@eGroups.com> <39D1E280.7AE96F36@hic.net> <Q.20000928124356.D0A.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de> <39D488D5.EF195749@hic.net>
Message-ID: <Q.20000929200909.102.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 2505

On 29.09.2000 at 07:19:33 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>  I think she was pissed off
>that he
>thought he could try to find a prettier date & then when he couldn't
>that he could just ask good old Hermione, waiting in the wings.
>She'd
>have had the same reaction if Harry treated her that way.  Ron just
>exhibited more boorish behavior than Harry.

True, as long as it was somebody she cared about who snubbed her like
this. I am not eager to fix Hermione up with Ron at all cost. At this
point in the story everything is still possible, nobody heads
single-mindedly into a certain relationship, and I like it that way
because it is more realistic. But there is a budding awareness of a
different level of relationships.

>The Farmer in the Dell Theory (mine -- dubbed so by Ebony & her
>students) is that Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and Harry
>likes either noone or someone outside the Trio.

That much I figured out by myself, but I'd like to know why it was
dubbed that and thus add another tidbit to my huge store of useless
details that clogg up my brain and don't leave room for more useful
knowledge. ;-)
Is this some kind of poem or song?

>Agreed that he needs to find an area to excel in.  Is he really
>going to
>do that if his romantic interest is constantly outshining him &
>triggering his jealous insecurities at every turn?  No - I don't
>think
>Ron needs an "adoring little woman."  But, I think his romantic
>partner
>shouldn't be a clear superstar.  I think he should have a romance
>where
>he & his partner are on more or less even footing.  To be second
>fiddle
>in yet another area of his life is clearly not what Ron needs. 

Certainly not. But I don't think Ron is able to pick a partner with
that in mind, steer his feelings in this way, any more than he can
give up his dream of being head boy and Quidditch star as seen in the
Mirror of Erised and instead go for a brilliant career in wizard
chess, which just isn't as prestigious as Quidditch and can't give
him the same kind of satisfaction. I can't think of a better way to
put it. 

Greetings
Christina

 "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
 and get back to you later." - Mary Bly

Book and movie reviews in German and English
http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From brooksar at indy.net  Fri Sep 29 18:34:23 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:34:23 -0000
Subject: Insecurity & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000929200909.584.1.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8r2nbg+mhjc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2506

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:

I think Christina has a good analysis of Hermione here.   

To answer a question, "Farmer in the Dell" is a nursery rhyme -  "Hi 
ho the merry-o" and it has 'The cheese stands alone' as a concluding 
bit of the verse,; it is along the lines of 'A affects B which in
turn affects C which affects D which affects etc. etc. etc'.  This 
forms a conceptual chain similar to the 'Ron likes Hermione, Hermione 
likes Harry, Harry likes Cho' chain.

I also saw a strong likeness to myself in Amanda's description of her 
father - see me, passing on information and insight above, and in 
general on this discussion group. :-)  Surely facts and knowledge 
themselves are interesting - and putting them together makes patterns 
that are even more interesting.

-Brooks




From spicoli323 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 18:50:58 2000
From: spicoli323 at hotmail.com (Steve Bates)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:50:58 -0000
Subject: Another PoU plug
Message-ID: <8r2oai+ncov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2507

I finally read the final chapter (15) of "Harry Potter and the 
Paradigm of Uncertainty" last night and am in even more awe than 
before.  Lori, you are incredibly gifted writer.  I would never have 
thought that fan fiction could actually bring tears to my eyes.  For 
anyone who hasn't read this already, it is at fanfiction.net, and 
should be at the top of your list of what to read while the wait for 
Book 5 continues.




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Fri Sep 29 19:59:03 2000
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:59:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another PoU plug
Message-ID: <v02140b39b5faa4b778dd@[140.254.112.150]>

No: HPFGUIDX 2508

>I finally read the final chapter (15) of "Harry Potter and the
>Paradigm of Uncertainty" last night and am in even more awe than
>before.  Lori, you are incredibly gifted writer.  I would never have
>thought that fan fiction could actually bring tears to my eyes.  For
>anyone who hasn't read this already, it is at fanfiction.net, and
>should be at the top of your list of what to read while the wait for
>Book 5 continues.
>
>
Aw, Steve.  *sniff sniff*  Thanks.  Reviews like this bring tears to *my*
eyes.  :-)

Ooh, I'm so loving the first chapter of the sequel.  It's practically
writing itself.  Yay!  I love it when I don't have to any of the really
hard work!  :-)

Lori


**********************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

        "I always say you can get further with a kind word and a
                two-by-four than just a kind word."  -Marcus

Last movie seen:  "Satyricon"
Reigning car-CD:  Austin Powers soundtrack
Current book:  "Animal Dreams" by Barbara Kingsolver
***********************************************************





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Sep 29 19:13:07 2000
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:13:07 -0700
Subject: OT - Farmer in the Dell
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEEICDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2509

http://members.tripod.com/~ESL4Kids/songs/farmer.html  (includes the music!)

The Farmer in the Dell 

The farmer in the dell,
The farmer in the dell
Hi, ho the derry-o,
The farmer in the dell

The farmer takes a wife,
The farmer takes a wife
Hi, ho the derry-o,
the farmer takes a wife

The wife takes a child...

The child takes a nurse...

The nurse takes a dog...

The dog takes a cat...

The cat takes a rat...

The rat takes the cheese...

The cheese stands alone...



From particle at urbanet.ch  Fri Sep 29 19:16:19 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:16:19 +0200
Subject: Fic to recommend...
Message-ID: <003601c02a49$bfb40880$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2510

It's called Boys' Own Camping Adventure, by GrimSlasher. A couple of other people have already recommended it, but I thought I'd add my name to the list of positive comments. It has got to be one of the better romance fics I've read, touching but still silly, and it's original, which is refreshing on FFN.

Warning: It is a slash (male/male relationship, for those who don't know) fic, so if that makes you uncomfortable, don't read it.

The link: http://www.fanfiction.net/master.cfm?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=19801

~Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 19:40:34 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:40:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cultural differences
References: <8r2h89+ambf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D4F031.507FEC4F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2511

Joywitch wrote:

> But I am curious about the
> cultural differences between the U.S. and Britian and how they
> influence our (people on this group I mean) understanding of the
> books.  I think that probably the majority of us are from the U.S.,
> with a large minority from Britian and Canada and a few from other
> English-speaking countries and a few English-speaking Germans, etc.
> Therefore the dominate trend in these discussions will be the
> American interpretation.

Yaay! This is what I tried to say, and didn't get it phrased right, when I
was talking about how we all are applying American judgements, based on
American ideas of how to educate kids, to what's going on at Hogwarts. I,
too, would like to know what any British members of the list think--do
"American attitudes" dominate? Are there any "American attitudes" per se?
Blatant stereotyping hereby allowed. At least by me.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 29 19:46:54 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:46:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkey spell
References: <7d.ad75ead.27033bc9@aol.com> <39D20098.60B59DC6@texas.net> <00bf01c028d4$c9b16d80$a78f7ed4@johnmitt> <OE546uPDVniSnRMWuLn00003369@hotmail.com> <39D36B00.56CC5075@texas.net> <OE17FRJrzdDW6lCPx33000002b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39D4F1AE.844F023C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2512

storm stanford wrote:

> thanks for that Amanda - will have to re-read whenI get my books back. I coun't work out why it took him back but that makes sence.

I thought of a better way to put it---the Portkey spell has two components, function and trigger. The function is whatever I called it, From/To or something, and the trigger is what activates it. Moody/Barty just changed the trigger.

> Imagine if Voldemort had turned up at the school - how truely terrifing

Well, that was the general idea, I expect.

--Amanda




From lrcjestes at msn.com  Fri Sep 29 20:38:19 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (Carole Estes)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:38:19 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another PoU plug
In-Reply-To: <8r2oai+ncov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c02a55$33b28c60$2e8fd6ce@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2513



> For
> anyone who hasn't read this already, it is at fanfiction.net, and
> should be at the top of your list of what to read while the wait for
> Book 5 continues.

I've also put a link in the links / fanfiction section of this groups home
page to the PoU egroups home page.

and here it is again:

http://www.egroups.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

carole





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 29 22:07:43 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:07:43 +0100
Subject: Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEBICJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2514

"As naive as this may sound, maybe the thought hasn't crossed Harry's mind.
He's an abused child. The Dursley's admitted in the first book that they did
everything they could to squash the magic out of him."

I think saying he was abused is taking it a bit far. He was reasonably well
fed, had a room of his own (maybe a little small but still his), had plenty
of clothes to wear (even if they were second hand and did not fit him) and
did have some toys to play with.
Yes he could have been treated a lot better, but I cannot remember any
instance where we are told he was hit by Petunia or Vernon.

Penny wrote: "But, the notion that Hermione is a lesser member of the Trio
somehow is just . . . wrong.  BTW, I'm not directing that comment
specifically at Simon -- just making a point from some recent discussions
this week."

I think that they are all equally important, but in very different ways.
Hermione is the brains of the operation and brings a calming influence to
the other two (apart from when she hits Draco - having said that this stops
the other two getting involved in a fight).

I wrote "This chapter starts with the triad (I do not like the word
triumvirate"

And Caius asked "OK I'll bite - why don't you like this perfectly servicable
English language word?"

It is not that I do not like the word triumvirate. It is that I dislike the
use of it to describe the triad of Harry, Ron and Hermione. This discussion
came up on the PoU group (see message #1231) and a little while ago (started
by me as I wished to know why so many people used it). Triumvirate means:
Government or control by a group of three males. My dislike come from the
fact that Hermione is not male and that, IMO, they have control of nothing.
Due to these points it is an impropriate word in the circumstances.

PoU is found at: http://www.egroups.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty

Simon




From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 29 08:54:25 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:54:25 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldy, the family man
References: <8r0bng+jnrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE55t3hqAdeibzMx62P00001407@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2515


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kelley 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:03 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldy, the family man


  --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
  wrote:
  Besides, immortality is one of Voldemort's major goals 
  and having> children is one of the ways to achieve it. I can't see 
  him "spreading> his seed" carelessly.

  I agree with Kelly - I don't think that Voldemort has any intention of NOT ensuring his own imortality - a child would just be competition (thought possbly useful for spare parts)

  storm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 29 22:59:57 2000
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:59:57 -0000
Subject: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
In-Reply-To: <8r2f4n+4a2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r36td+qabf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2516

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Blaise " <blaise_writer at h...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I found it interesting as well that Snape is the teacher Rowling 
> > chooses to write the logic puzzle.  Quite revealing of how his
mind 
> > works.  Do you suppose he thought it would be logical to join
with 
> > Dumbledore?  
> 
> 
> Ummm.  Actually we have no hint at all that it was SNAPE who wrote
> the puzzle/poem - he could have just done the potions - Dumbledore 
> might have made the puzzle.  Insufficient data to state one way or
> the other.
> 
> -Brooks
	 The poem is written on a piece of *paper* (not parchment). This 
is a  studied insult which would affect only one who has a Muggle past  
and is sensitive about it: a very Snape thing to do IMHO...unless this 
is another one of those 'ancestor/descendant' type oversights.
Pippin





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 00:12:07 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:12:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEBICJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <017401c02a73$12e24c00$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2517

<<I think saying he was abused is taking it a bit far. He was reasonably well fed, had a room of his own (maybe a little small but still his), had plenty of clothes to wear (even if they were second hand and did not fit him) and did have some toys to play with. Yes he could have been treated a lot better, but I cannot remember any instance where we are told he was hit by Petunia or Vernon.>>

I DISAGREE!!!  (Sorry Simon!)  I know what emotional abuse is like, and if sleeping under the stairs in a cupboard surrounded by spiders ("Harry was used to spiders, because the cupboard under the stairs was full of them, and that was where he slept...") didn't cause more mental damage (aka Ron's!), it's only due to the flexibility and stability of Harry's own mind).  I think ignoring that a person exists IS a form of abuse!  Not one picture in the house of Harry, he never got to go anywhere but Figgs, school and home, he DIDN'T even have a library card ("...he didn't belong to the library, pg 34 of Ch 3 SS, American version when discussing the first letter that came through the doorslot) so he must have only read what he got in school, or in Vernon's discarded newspapers.  It does state that Vernon, etc.. tried to smother the imagination (see my next post--partial list of things I discovered reading SS that I either want to comment on, or ask about!).

On page 41, american, Ch 3, it stated how Vernon beat Dusley about the head for holding them up trying to pack his computer, etc when they were escaping the envelopes.  Now, perhaps others might not feel like this, but if I was to beat my son about the head,  "I" would call it abuse!  A behind, possibly acceptable, depending on circumstances, and personal beliefs.  The head, never!  And this was Dusley, not Harry?  We don't know that if he could his his darling "little tyke" he wouldn't as easily hit Harry!

Sorry about the rant.  I used to work in childcare, and in a seminar, saw the bodies of children cemented in trash cans, and other forms of abuse.  Then they went on to discuss emotional abuse, which in some cases is worst.  Neglect is not only of items (food, clothes, etc), it's also of love.  As far as that, Harry is the one of most neglected ten year olds!

Dee





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 29 23:19:28 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:19:28 -0700
Subject: Little Lord Faunt-Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <8r2h89+ambf@eGroups.com>
References: <39D47D3C.33E22FB3@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000929161527.0204a3d0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2518

At 04:50 PM 9/29/00 +0000, Joywitch wrote:
>Another example of differing interpretations is peoples attitudes
>towards the harshness of Snape and the bullying of Draco.  Most of
>the Americans seem appalled that this sort of behavior would be
>allowed.

Compared to the bullies *I* had to contend with in (American) grammer
school, Draco is Little Lord Fauntleroy.



                                                 -- Dave




From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Fri Sep 29 23:26:51 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:26:51 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
Message-ID: <mailman.3.1576214365.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2519



>   He's incredibly powerful - but if he used it to full extent he could make things go *just so* and everything would be perfect - but who learns anything? and what a sterile world. I'm having an echo of some kids book here - anyone know whick one? (not the just so bit
>
>  ok, so I remember which book it is - its the end of "the dark is rising" sequence, the speech Merriman give to Will, the bad news is that you are going to have to take my word for it because I can't find it to quote. I swear someone is coming in to my house and stealing my books - first "chewing gum rescue" and now this!
>
>  storm
*******************************************************************

storm, it's on "Silver on the tree"( oh, god I love that book! :))
I think that the quote you meant was this:

"For Drake is no longer in his hammock, children, nor is Arthur somewhere sleeping, and you may not lie idly expecting the second coming of anybody now, because the world is yours and it is up to you. Now especially since man has the strength to destroy this world, it is the responsibility of man to keep it alive, in all its beauty and marvelous joy,,,,and the world will still be imperfect, because men are imperfect. Good men will still be killed by bad, or sometimes by other good men, and there will still be pain and disease and famine, anger and hate. But if you work and care and are watchful, as we have tried to be for you, then in the long run the worse will never, ever, triumph over the better...."


(whew...! That was a long one!) I'm pretty sure that was what you meant. This just goes to show how men/women's actions can have a great effect on others and the world. Imagine how powerful Dumbledore really is, and remember Dumbledore is the only person that Voldemort fears. I wonder why that is? Any ideas? Could it be that he displays so much goodness and love that the sight of him makes Voldemort uneasy because he doesn't understand fully what *love is, and he doesn't want to be associated with it? I think love is a very powerful magic if you think about it. 



   Dumbledore as  a headmaster......hmmm....this got me thinking. I find Dumbledore to be a really wise and knowledgeble person. And his method of running hogwarts may be for some(like Fudge) well, not normal.And imagine the reaction of some parents when he hired Snape for the potions professor and Hagrid as a care for magical creatures teacher.Dumbledore's ways aren't traditional and he likes to do what he thinks is best for the students even though sometimes he doesn't abide with the regulations. And that's what makes him an independent thinker and a great headmaster. 


 Come to think of it, he could have gotten any job because of his reputation of defeating Grindelwald and god knows what else. Why do u think he opt to become a headmaster of a school?  
    



Reese :)

*(who is half excited and nervous for tomorrow, because she will be having her examinations in taekwondo)*




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 29 23:56:48 2000
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:56:48 -0700
Subject: Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.
In-Reply-To: <017401c02a73$12e24c00$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEBICJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000929165354.02e27a70@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2520

There is no doubt in my mind that Harry was abused.

If there's any reason why I don't want Harry to die in the last book
it's that I want to see him free from the Dursleys at last!!!



                                                 -- Dave




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Sep 29 23:53:22 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:53:22 +0100
Subject: Cultural Differences and examinations. Also a mention of bouncing ferrets. This post is long.
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEBJCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2521

Joywitch wrote: "Also, there were some posts from people saying that
Hermione should not have been allowed to take so many classes in PoA, but
that attitude seems to reflect a very American attitude towards education
(where we treat kids like idiots, spoon feed them garbage that they
regurgitate on standardized tests, and then we are shocked when they dont
know how to read). Of course that is an exaggeration, but the traditional
British attitude seems to lean more towards *force them to study themselves
to death or theyll never learn a thing*."

I am not sure that I agree the comments about Hermione. She chose to do the
subjects and was not forced by anyone else. I think that it taught Hermione
a very important lesson about biting off more than you can chew. If someone
had just said that she couldn't do it then she would not have believed him
or her but this way taught her large amounts about her own limitations.

Following on from this it is the word 'force' that I object to in your
statement. The British education system tries to help those who want to help
themselves. If, as a student, you want to do nothing then the teachers quite
often give up on you and move onto someone who appreciates the help they are
being given.

IMO the English system is moving too much towards the standardised
regurgitate all you know type of tests. How much someone knows is not all
that is important, seeing how they can apply what they know to an entirely
unknown situation needs to be examined more. This is basically how my
university examinations (I am reading mathematics) are structured. A few
marks go towards reciting some learnt information, a few more to applying it
in an already seen situation and then the bulk of the marks on applying it
some unexpected way. Also very important is knowing how the different areas
interlink. Too many sections within a subject are taught separately.

I got by in A-level physics with a very good memory and producing a piece of
coursework of massive length (I think the two pieces ran to over 100 pages)
but no real substance. I understood little of what I was being asked to do
but was able to do well as I could remember all the formulae and then apply
them perfectly. This, IMO, is not what exams are about. When in the real
world would you not be able to go over and pick up a textbook to find a
formula that you needed?

How this applies to other subjects I am not too sure! Some problems are
definitely caused by trying to teach subjects in a scientific manor. Books
and poems should not be analysed in a step-by-step approach. English
literature (as a subject) is an art and as such should be about how you
react and the emotions felt.

Joywitch wrote: "Another example of differing interpretations is peoples
attitudes towards the harshness of Snape and the bullying of Draco. Most of
the Americans seem appalled that this sort of behavior would be allowed.
While that sort of behavior IS certainly appalling, it is possible that it
is simply more acceptable in Britian than in the U.S. It is certainly the
type of behavior commonly depicted in novels about British boarding
schools."

This type of behaviour (I am talking about Snape to begin with), as long as
it does not go too far, does a lot more good than harm. It teaches someone
how to stand up to, but react entirely in an appropriate manor, towards a
superior. If it is really a big problem to Harry then why has he not
complained, especially in the many instances he has had to talk to
Dumbledore by himself?

The bullying of Draco is quite easy to explain. Has Harry, Ron or Hermione
ever complained to a teacher (apart from Snape)? I think the answer to this
is no. If the triad does nothing about informing the teachers then these
teachers could quite easily have never seen anything that they could take
action about. Also we have seen how it has taught Harry, Ron and Hermione
how to stand up for themselves. Draco seems to be quite careful never to do
anything in front of the teachers that could get him into trouble, except of
course for the bouncing ferret incident (I could not resist putting in a
mention of this).
There has only really been a small amount of insults thrown by Draco at
Harry and co. There have been a few tricks played on them but they have done
just as many back. To my mind this is just typical school children stuff.
Maybe this answers the question - as I find it perfectly acceptable!

Peg wrote: "But thirdly, Lupin is a teacher. And teachers have to be
sensitive to parental fears that if they touch the kids their teach, they're
some kind of perverts who are coming on to their kids. Maybe it's more an
issue in America, where there have been several scandals about teachers who
did cross the line with their students, making everyone paranoid and gun-shy
about litigation."

This is not quite about the same thing but there is a major case going
through the legal system at the moment concerning appropriate and
inappropriate restraint of children in schools by the teaching staff. This
is quite clearly very important as it has major implications to the whole
teaching profession. The original case concerned an allegation of the head
teacher (female) slapping a pupil who was stopped from going on a swimming
trip due to misbehaviour. She was found guilty as first but then went to
appeal. At appeal the judge said that none of the prosecution witnesses (one
of whom is a teacher at the same school) where reliable and cleared her.
Since then various other allegations have emerged. It says something when in
these case the parents of the children who the offences have allegedly been
committed against say the head teacher has done nothing wrong.

If the head teacher is found guilty then there, quite obviously, will be
hundreds of allegations based on the smallest action by a teacher. My
concern about this case is because my dad is a teacher and has only a few
years until he retires.

Amanda wrote: "... when I was talking about how we all are applying American
judgements, based on American ideas of how to educate kids, to what's going
on at Hogwarts. I, too, would like to know what any British members of the
list think-do "American attitudes" dominate? Are there any "American
attitudes" per se?"

Comments like do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes
spring to mind.
America is a big place and IMO there is no such thing as an "American
attitude". I think it is more down to the differences between the people
writing the messages than necessarily the differences caused by being
brought up in a different country. After all we have all had different
upbringings.
I have found little difficulty making my feelings known in this group. Part
of the joy of being a member of this group is arguing why you think your
point is correct.

Simon




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 00:11:14 2000
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:11:14 -0000
Subject: Ebony's S.O.S.
In-Reply-To: <013101c029d8$9f739200$79c54b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8r3b32+i23m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2522

One thing that I am finding as I delve into Freud is that a modern 
feminist would *cringe* at some of his theories.  Yes, he has more to 
say than just "repression civilizes the id and makes society 
possible", but still, there *is* the matter of the pesky id to deal 
with.

Please, if you have a good handle on this stuff, e-mail me off list 
so we can chat.  I'm beginning to see some of the limitations of 
applying this theory to HP... and wouldn't mind advice.

--Ebony





--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> 
wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at h...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 3:20 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.
> 
> 
> 
> > >
> > > if you know Freud, you
> > know sex is *everything*--"the rest is just details".
> 
> If you "know" Freud - Oh, if only it were that simple! - as was 
once said of
> Mozart, Freud is too easy for beginners, and too complicated for
> professionals.  Hans Zinnser once noted that "Freud's high 
explosives have
> been reworked into firecrackers for the simple-minded to burn their
> fingers."
> 
>     - CMC
> 
> "Over and over again when psychoanalysis has regarded something 
happening in
> the mind as an expression of the sexual instincts, indignant 
protests have
> been raised to the effect that other instincts and other interests 
exist in
> mental life beside the sexual, that one should not derive 
everything from
> sexuality, and so on.  Well, it is a real pleasure for once to be in
> agreement with one's opponents. Psycho-analysis has never forgotten 
that
> non-sexual instincts also exist; it has built up a sharp 
distinction between
> sexual instincts and ego-instincts; and in the face of all 
opposition it has
> insisted, not that they arise from sexuality, but that the neuroses 
owe
> their origin to a conflict between ego and sexuality........"
> 
>     - Freud, General Introduction to Psycho-Analysis, Chapter 22




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 01:29:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:29:43 -0500
Subject: Ok.  Questions, comment, and altogether musing brought out of SS!
Message-ID: <01ad01c02a7d$e97966e0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2523

All pages in this page refer to the American version (not certain printing #~!), and the book is always the Sorcerer's Stone!        


Here goes!  The first few chapters worth (good for a few months discussion!  Where are the FAQ's when you need them?  Grins, and ducks Simon, Neil, Penny, and the other's pillows!)

Chapter One
pg. 2  *None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the window.*  Could this be a part of the movie scene, with the brown-colored owl?  I am not certain what color tawny refers to exactly!

pg. 3  The word through out this chapter is "cloaks" never robes.  Are they just wearing cloaks, else why the term?  Of course McG mentions not a on changed to Muggle clothing later!

pg. 5  *...hoping he was imagining things, which he had never hoped beforfe, because he didn't approve of imagination.*
Hence his rigidity!

pg. 8  *...as though it(nose) had been broken at least twice.*  Why mention this?  Is this related to the famous battle during WW2?  (Or, lol Mike, could the goat have kicked him?)

pg. 11 *..."I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."...*  Why this comment?  Of course, in the next four years, we haven't even seen him wearing a scarf, let alone earmuffs?  Or is this a sexual innuendo?

(Yes, I did allllot of thinking while reading!  Hindsight, you know!)

pg. 12  *...dabbed at her eyes beneath her spectacles...*  Why is McG upset and in tears, on this page about Lily and James?  Is is a clue to the fact that they WERE in her house, hence the closer association?  Or is it only the bond of teacher and taught?  (Ebony, here's one for you to field, lol!)  She commented ..."the Potter's son, Harry"... and that is a bit contrary.

pg. 14 *...Young Sirius...* Young due to ration of Hagrid's age and his, or due to his being only 19 or 20?

pg. 15 *scars...map of underground...*  This brings to mind Neverwhere, again.  When I opened the book, it had a map of the underground in it, including those now-defunct stops (stations, what are they called, anyway?).  If this is what AD has on his leg, then that is a very intricate scar!  How did he get it (already discussed! LOL), but mainly why is it so detailed?

ENTIRE CHAPTER> During all the transfiguration/animagi and the apparation, we never see a wand being used once, the whole chapter!  Don't you need a wand to apparate?

Chapter Two
pg. 19  *...under the bed...*  There must be enough room in that cupboard for a bed, and did they just plop the trunk on top of it in CoS?  It never says the bed got moved!

(also on this page, that spider remark--again, I am reminded of Dahl!  Not just because of Harry cooking the family's breakfast, and Matilda's helping HER family, but James and HIS spider!)

pg. 20  (description of Harry)  Ian was watching Aladdin last night when I read this, and I was drawn by two facts--one the resemble between the drawn Aladdin, and the voice of Jafar.  The physical, clothing aside, of course.  I couldn't see the parallels, though between Jasmine as a DID and Hermione!  I do feel, though, that the soft, drawling sadistic tones of who-ever it was who played Jafar, would make a great voice for Voldie!

pg. 22  *..."Mrs. Figg's broken her leg." (tripping over a cat, we learn later)...*  Alright again with the Figg discussion, I know!  But if Figg is the Figg at the end of GoF, then couldn't she had used the same spell (or had someone in the "force" of wizards) that Gilderoy tried to do to Harry in CoS?  Or, is she a bit of a seerer, and knew Harry needed to meet the snake, hence making a "story" of breaking her leg?

pg. 23  *..."Majorca...*  Where is this place?  First Neverwhere, and now HP?  

pg. 25 *...roof...*  Harry self-apparated?

pg. 25 *...MUSTACHE...*  (aside to the person who asked!)

Chapter Three
pg. 32  *...Smelting...*  I can't help but think of Smeghead with this!

pg. 38  *...kitchen...second bedroom...*  Vernon DOES tell Dudley NO at least this first time (unless we count the zoo) in both "get out of the kitchen" and giving Harry the bedroom.  HE knew that they were abusing the child, and didn't want to get into trouble with the wizards!

pg. 40  *...got out a hammer and nails and boarded up the cracks around the front..*  Does Vernon seem an obsessive compulsive here?

pg.  41  *...letters still slamming into the room, bouncing off the walls and floor...*  Besides being my absolute favorite scene of the whole series so far, I have to ask?  Are all those letters still there to wade through when the Dursleys return home from the shack?

pg.42  *...Railview Hotel, Cokeworth...*  Where is Surrey and Cokeworth in relation to each other?

Chapter Four
pg. 48  *...green icing...*  (Along with a few other points from other parts, throughout... Green writing on the envelope, Green smoke when Harry's vault was opened, and of course, Hagrid looked a little green.  Three out of four good green things?

(entire chapter, and book in general) Does anyone else here Jim Dale's voice when you are just reading the book, without any noise in the background but your own thoughts?  Especially in Hagrid's accent?

pg. 53  *...frog spawn...*  Did Lily have a toad at Hogswart?  

pg. 54  *...about 20 years ago now...*  This was Voldie's official rise to power!  :)

pg. 55 *..."Didn't dare try takin' the school, not jus' then, anyway."...*  Did Voldie try that we haven't heard about within the time of his Terror Reign?

pg. 56  *..."McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts"...*  Was there any children there who survived?  And, in another thought, could one of these be Molly's parents? (along the lines of my grandparents babysitting theory?)

Chapter Five
pg. 62 *...peppermint humbugs...*  What are they?

pg. 63  *...The boat that Uncle Vernon had hired...*  THEY TOOK THE ONLY BOAT!  That means they left the Dursleys stranded on that piece of rock!  LOL  How did they get home?

pg.  65  *...knitting...canary-yellow circus tent...*  What is it?  We don't see it later in the book?

pg. 66 (the letter)   *...3 sets of plain work robes...*  A throw forward to those hideous dress robes in GoF?

pg. 69 *...Dedalus Diggle...*  This is the second time by name, and third time by mention (unless he was the one mentioned as running into Vernon in a violet cloak?) of this man, the first being the pg. 10, chapter one mention of fireworks (shooting stars).  Have we heard this man again since?

pg.  71  *...took a year off...*  It sounds like Quirrel might have actually been at Hogwarts for more than the one fateful year!

pg. 72  *...Eeylops...*  Ok. I will bite, is this Greek to me?  (Ducks the pillows) Or is there another meaning that I don't recall with this spelling?

pg. 77 *..."mother's up the street looking at wands"...*  How can Draco get a wand when he isn't present for it?  Of course, I can assume, his father being who he is, perhaps he already had his wand since toddler-hood, and this was a replacement for his mother?

pg.78  *..."That's you done, my dear."...*  Why did Draco's robes take longer than Harry's?  Was he more particular, or is it a "associate" thing, were the Madam works faster than her help?  Of course, if this is the case, with his "snooty-ness", why didn't Draco (and family) DEMAND the Madam be the only one to wait on the dark darling?

pg. 83  *...his pink umbrella...*  How long are English umbrella handles, possibly 16 inches long?  Winks...

pg. 84/85  *...holly...yew...*  Is there any connection or opposition of these trees in history, or etc?  We know the feathers are the same.  Just looking for a connection with the wood!

pg. 87  *...Hagrid had gone...*  Did Hagrid apparate?

Chapter Six
pg. 90  *..."ruddy tail"...*  Why didn't MoM interfere in this, especially now since it appears that a muggle doctor will also be involved?  They could have sent a "reversal" person in...

pg. 103  *Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberic Grunnion, ...Paracelsus,...Cliodna...*  Who ARE these people?  Anyone in real life?

pg. 109  *..."you'll go the same way as your parents..."...Scabbers the rat was hanging...*  Moments before the attack, Draco was going off about Harry's parents.  We know that Scabbers is Pettigrew.  Could Draco have hit a sore point with the comments of Lily and James, and that's what invoked the attack?

pg. 110  *..took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes...*  It makes no mention of clothing, just sneakers.  (Muggle or Wizard sneakers?  Air Jordans really fly?)  Also a comment on pockets... I think I read in the other books about pockets in robes, right?  Or are they referring to jeans, sweaters, sweatshirts, etc, pockets?

That's it, so far.  I have post-its still in the book, but they aren't written on yet--my appointments are done for this week!  Grins.  Can't tell when I have doctor's appointments, and laundry days at Mother's can you?  Chuckles...

Now, hopefully, I don't just get slack jaws, there are some things in there that I do wonder about!  (If there is anything in the half-finished FAQs just tell me!  I know a few subjects are in there, such as Hagrid's umbrella, but I am trying for a different angle.  

Off to read the 60 emails that have flooded into my account while I wrote this!

:D
Dee





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Sep 30 00:33:50 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:33:50 +0100
Subject: Abuse
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEBKCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2524

Dee wrote: "I DISAGREE!!!  (Sorry Simon!)"

I would have been more upset if it had not promoted a reaction. It is quite
an important issue to the books.

Dee wrote: "On page 41, american, Ch 3, it stated how Vernon beat Dusley
about the head"

Exact quote is: "...his father had hit him round the head for holding them
up..."
It depends on what is meant by this. If it is a clip round the ear hole then
there is nothing wrong with it. There is a large amount of ambiguity in the
statement and I took it to be a more symbolic action against Dudley rather
than any massive fists flying action. We are told of some of the actions the
Dursley's take against Harry. If they did hit him then I am sure we would
know about it.

Dee wrote: "Neglect is not only of items (food, clothes, etc), it's also of
love.  As far as that, Harry is the one of most neglected ten year olds!"

He has had an advantage that many never had. He had 15 months of total love
from his parents (I think this is a logical assumption) at the beginning of
his life. Things may have gone downhill from there but I still do not think
it was that serious.

Simon







From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 02:05:25 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:05:25 -0000
Subject: Education and Complaints....(Re: Cultural Differences and examinations.) 
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEBJCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <8r3hp5+m1e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2525

EDUCATION

Simon Wrote-"The British education system tries to help those who 
want to help themselves. If, as a student, you want to do nothing 
then the teachers quite often give up on you and move onto someone 
who appreciates the help they are being given."

Simon Also wrote-"This type of behaviour (I am talking about Snape to 
begin with), as long as it does not go too far, does a lot more good 
than harm. It teaches someone how to stand up to, but react entirely 
in an appropriate manor, towards a superior."

Well, that certainly isn't quite so in the US. Example: Last year I 
had a teacher (the subject was band) who began to exclude certain 
members of the organisation simply to allow more room for the new 
kids who were favoured by his wife.  A lot of the people, I being one 
of the ostracized ones, were very upset.  There was in reality no 
reason to exclude certain groups. Immediately there were some parents 
that went to complain to the school board and to the principal about 
the alleged injustice.  I however specifically asked that my parents 
NOT complain.  After all the row that was going on was between us 
(the students) and the teacher, who was in no way invading personal 
boundries, both physical and emotional (though the latter could be 
argued) had technically done nothing wrong.  The parents were simply 
upset at the prinicple that their child was being told they were "not 
good enough". 

Now don't get me wrong, but even if you SHOULDN'T say/imply this idea 
to people it does not mean that it won't happen.  That is life, 
people are going to stab you in the back, lie to you, degrade you, 
and undermine your personal values and beliefs....We CANNOT  stop 
this but IMO we can counter act this by caring about others, and 
building people up, not cutting them down.  That is what is so great 
about the HP books, JKR make them honest, there ARE people like Snape 
and guess what- that isn't going to change because somebody complains 
about it....

Simon Wrote "IMO the English system is moving too much towards the 
standardised regurgitate all you know type of tests. How much someone 
knows is not all that is important, seeing how they can apply what 
they know to an entirely unknown situation needs to be examined more."
All I can say is- Hurrah Simon! I loathe standarised tests with a 
fiery passion that bubbles in the depths of my soul....

So to tie this horribly OT post back into HP, and maybe Simon, Neil 
(BTW, where has he been lately???) and our other UK members can help 
me out, is to ask can you see the parents of people (ie, Molly 
Weasley, Neville's Grandmother, or Hermione's Mum and Dad etc.) 
complaining about the behaviour of Snape? That is if they were aware 
of it. I understand that mostly it would not be a great issue, but I 
could see complaining about making Neville pickle toads(and after all 
he's been through!).

Scott

Who hopes he doesn't sound to terribly "American"









From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 02:33:55 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:33:55 -0000
Subject: Ok.  Questions, comment, and altogether musing brought out of SS!
In-Reply-To: <01ad01c02a7d$e97966e0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8r3jej+snnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2526

Wow! That was a long list! Some of the questions I answered some of 
them I didn't, but I'm sure others will ;-)

> 
> Chapter One
> pg. 2  *None of them noticed a large, tawny owl flutter past the 

window.*  Could this be a part of the movie scene, with the 

brown-colored owl?  I am not certain what color tawny refers to 

exactly!
> 
> pg. 3  The word through out this chapter is "cloaks" never robes.  

Are they just wearing cloaks, else why the term?  Of course McG 

mentions not a on changed to Muggle clothing later!>


That could be the scene the pics from empireonline.com since the owl 
they had was brown.

Cloaks are outer wear. I guess the wizarding equivalent to jackets
and 
coats. Vernon saw folks walking about with cloaks on as he went to 
work that morning.


> pg. 11 *..."I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me 

she liked my new earmuffs."...*  Why this comment?  Of course, in the 

next four years, we haven't even seen him wearing a scarf, let alone 

earmuffs?  Or is this a sexual innuendo?
> 
> (Yes, I did allllot of thinking while reading!  Hindsight, you 

know!)
> 

LOL!!! 

> pg. 12  *...dabbed at her eyes beneath her spectacles...*  Why is 

McG upset and in tears, on this page about Lily and James?  Is is a 

clue to the fact that they WERE in her house, hence the closer 

association?  Or is it only the bond of teacher and taught?  (Ebony, 

here's one for you to field, lol!)  She commented ..."the Potter's 

son, Harry"... and that is a bit contrary.
>

Maybe Lily and James were McGonagall's favorite students and fondly 
remember them from that time?
 
> pg. 14 *...Young Sirius...* Young due to ration of Hagrid's age and 

his, or due to his being only 19 or 20?
> 

I can't prove it but my gut feeling is that the Potters were in their 
early 20's when they died. V. called Lily a "silly girl" as she stood 
protecting Harry. IT maybe just a matter of colloqu1alism (sp?) or it 
could be taken literally. Moreover, Hagrid states that he had to 
RETURN the flying motorbike to Sirius. Yet in PoA, Hagrid recounts 
that Sirius GAVE him the motorbike at Godric's Hollow adding that he 
(Sirius) wouldn't be needing the motorbike anymore. Was this possibly 
a mistake by Rowling?


> ENTIRE CHAPTER> During all the transfiguration/animagi and the 

apparation, we never see a wand being used once, the whole chapter!  

Don't you need a wand to apparate?
> 

I don't think a wand is an absolute neccesity. Perhaps it
concentrates 
or focuses the wizarding power? Afterall, Harry was able to free the 
boa constrictor and blow up Aunt Marge sans wand.

> pg. 23  *..."Majorca...*  Where is this place?  First Neverwhere, 

and now HP?  
> 

Majorca is an island off the coast of Spain. It's a resort area if
I'm 
not mistaken.


> pg. 32  *...Smelting...*  I can't help but think of Smeghead with 

this!
> 

I think "smelt" has something to do with refining metal ore. IF so, 
then maybe "Smelting" is a place where one is supposed to be 
"refined", as in a finishing school?

> pg. 54  *...about 20 years ago now...*  This was Voldie's official 

rise to power!  :)
> 
> pg. 55 *..."Didn't dare try takin' the school, not jus' then, 

anyway."...*  Did Voldie try that we haven't heard about within the 

time of his Terror Reign?
> 

EXACTLY (regarding V's rise to power)!!!! Perhaps V was planning on 
attacking Hogwarts. And maybe the mishap at Godric's Hollow put a 
crimp on those plans.


> pg. 56  *..."McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts"...*  Was there any 

children there who survived?  And, in another thought, could one of 

these be Molly's parents? (along the lines of my grandparents 

babysitting theory?)
>
 
In one of the Sorting Ceremonies, there is a mention of a "Bones" 
being sorted.

> pg. 62 *...peppermint humbugs...*  What are they?

They are a mint flavored candy. 


> pg. 69 *...Dedalus Diggle...*  This is the second time by name, and 

third time by mention (unless he was the one mentioned as running
into 

Vernon in a violet cloak?) of this man, the first being the pg. 10, 

chapter one mention of fireworks (shooting stars).  Have we heard
this 

man again since?
> 

Nope. After setting off the shooting stars, bowing to HArry in a
shop, 
and shaking hands with Harry in the Leaky Cauldron. DD hasn't been 
mentioned in the later books.


> pg.  71  *...took a year off...*  It sounds like Quirrel might have 

actually been at Hogwarts for more than the one fateful year!
> 

I had the same impression when I read that.


> pg. 84/85  *...holly...yew...*  Is there any connection or 

opposition of these trees in history, or etc?  We know the feathers 

are the same.  Just looking for a connection with the wood!
> 

There is folklore connected with these woods. I have to look it up
but 
I seem to recall that one of them either attracts or repells "the
evil 
eye".


> pg. 103  *Hengist of Woodcroft, Alberic Grunnion, 

...Paracelsus,...Cliodna...*  Who ARE these people?  Anyone in real 

life?
> 

Paracelsus was a chemist(alchemist) during the middle ages.


> pg. 109  *..."you'll go the same way as your parents..."...Scabbers 

the rat was hanging...*  Moments before the attack, Draco was going 

off about Harry's parents.  We know that Scabbers is Pettigrew. 
Could 

Draco have hit a sore point with the comments of Lily and James, and 

that's what invoked the attack?
> 

Good point!








From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 02:50:10 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:50:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Insecurity & Hermione
References: <20000926.174303.-30051.0.drmm@juno.com> <39D48166.578B6C36@hic.net>
Message-ID: <39D554E2.E79129D8@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2527



Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Hi --
>
> Dr M M wrote:
>
> > I also think Hermione is just as insecure as he is.  If she wasn't
> > would she really be bragging about her knowledge in class the way she
> > does?
>
> I don't have the perception that Hermione "brags" about her smarts, in
> class or out of class.  She's always all too happy to volunteer the
> right answers, in class & out of class.  But, in my mind, that's not
> quite the same thing as "bragging."

You both have a point.  Hermione does have insecurities about her studies
(remember what her boggart appeared as during Lupin's obstacle course/final
exam?)  She overstudies and worries a great deal about upcoming tests.

But I also agree that she doesn't brag.  She never crows about her test
results, and she although she can be tsk-tsky toward Ron and Harry when she
thinks they aren't studying enough (or when they don't know something she
thinks they should know--usually something from _Hogwarts, a History_), she
is unfailingly kind to Neville in Potions class, always doing her best to
protect him from Snape's bullying rather than agreeing with him that Neville
is hopeless.

She's a smart student but not the most obnoxious kind.

Just the mildly obnoxious kind.

Peg




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 02:50:41 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:50:41 -0000
Subject: Fudge, Muggles and School Governors.
Message-ID: <8r3ke1+jeg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2528

Is it just me or did it seem strange to go back and read that in PoA, 
Harry is reading an article from the "Daily Prophet" and it says that 
Fudge notified the Muggle authorities on the matter of Sirius's 
escape..."I had to, don't you know"...Of course Sirius wasn't very 
dangerous but-

Now maybe this has been discussed in the thousands of messages I 
never caught up on when I joined the group, but is it possible that 
the Muggle Government it fully aware of the magical world? 

Also on the same note, I remember reading something about a fanfic in 
which Lucius Malfoy becomes Headmaster, beg pardon but wasn't he 
sacked in CoS?  I would think that McGonagall would become 
Headmistress, wouldn't she?  Also D. says to LM that the other 11(?) 
governors all seemed to think he was the best person for the job and 
were threatened if they didn't go along w/ LM's plan to sack D.  So 
that means that the rest aren't dark wizards...also who took LM's 
place? And is a board of governors the typical way to run an English 
boarding school, or an American one for that matter (I attend public 
schools, in the American sense of that word...)

Scott




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 02:59:40 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:59:40 -0000
Subject: Fudge, Muggles and School Governors.
In-Reply-To: <8r3ke1+jeg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r3kus+jorb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2529

I think the Muggle Government is very aware of the Wizarding 
population. The truth is out there. <insert spooky "X-Files" music 
here>

I'm an American who attended public school, then was fortunate enough 
to attend a private one. The private school I attended (run by 
Catholic nuns) had a "Board of Trustees". The principal ran 
the school, she ultimately answered to the Board. 
 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Scott " <harry_potter00 at y...> 
wrote:
> Is it just me or did it seem strange to go back and read that in 
PoA, 
> Harry is reading an article from the "Daily Prophet" and it says 
that 
> Fudge notified the Muggle authorities on the matter of Sirius's 
> escape..."I had to, don't you know"...Of course Sirius wasn't very 
> dangerous but-
> 
> Now maybe this has been discussed in the thousands of messages I 
> never caught up on when I joined the group, but is it possible that 
> the Muggle Government it fully aware of the magical world? 
> 
> Also on the same note, I remember reading something about a fanfic 
in 
> which Lucius Malfoy becomes Headmaster, beg pardon but wasn't he 
> sacked in CoS?  I would think that McGonagall would become 
> Headmistress, wouldn't she?  Also D. says to LM that the other
11(?) 
> governors all seemed to think he was the best person for the job
and 
> were threatened if they didn't go along w/ LM's plan to sack D.  So 
> that means that the rest aren't dark wizards...also who took LM's 
> place? And is a board of governors the typical way to run an
English 
> boarding school, or an American one for that matter (I attend
public 
> schools, in the American sense of that word...)
> 
> Scott




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 03:11:58 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:11:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
References: <8r1nfo+4igh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D559FE.4B51C8F8@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2530



Blaise wrote:

> I've always wondered about Snape's poetic side.  I can't help
> thinking of his very first entry, where he talks about brewing fame
> and glory and stoppering death.  Lovely lyrical stuff!
>
> Snape does have a way with words, which he uses more often than not
> as weapons and as tools for manipulating people.  But perhaps he's a
> frustrated poet too?

This is intriguing, a new way of looking at Snape.  Maybe . . . Snape has
always seemed to me to be a character who is terribly frustrated.  And we're
not quite what it is that he's frustrated about.  What is it about Harry
that gets his knickers in such a twist?  Perhaps he does want the DADA job,
perhaps not-- as several have pointed out, it's just a rumor.

But it makes me wonder--if life had turned out exactly the way Snape had
wanted it to, what kind of life would he have?  If he wasn't so frustrated,
what would make him happy?  Maybe he'd rather be a research chemist, with no
teaching duties (no dunderheads to deal with), writing poetry on the side?
Do you understand what I mean?  Does he want a different job?  A different
childhood?  A large cafe latte?

What would Snape see in the Mirror of Erised?

Peg

> -Blaise, who's been thinking too much about Snape lately.

That's all right, Blaise--we all have.

>>>

No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably Cooperative
Attitude.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Sep 30 03:17:18 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:17:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.
References: <8r3b32+i23m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c02a8c$f158f1a0$47c64b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2531


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ebony Elizabeth" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:11 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ebony's S.O.S.


> One thing that I am finding as I delve into Freud is that a modern
> feminist would *cringe* at some of his theories.

Not necessarily: see Juliet Mitchell, who surely sees herself as a modern
feminist, champion Freud in Psychoanalysis and Feminism (1974).  She draws a
sharp distinction between the crudities of popularized Freudianism and the
complexities of Freud himself.

Given Freud's strong Anglo-phile leanings - he enthusiastically read
everything from Shakespeare to Agatha Christie in the original English -
I've the feeling he would have rather enjoyed JKR.

    - CMC




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 03:25:14 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:25:14 -0000
Subject: Ebony's S.O.S.
In-Reply-To: <003101c02a8c$f158f1a0$47c64b0c@cq5wu>
Message-ID: <8r3meq+7ka0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2532

> Given Freud's strong Anglo-phile leanings - he enthusiastically read
> everything from Shakespeare to Agatha Christie in the original 
English -
> I've the feeling he would have rather enjoyed JKR.

That's interesting to know, I'm an Anglophile too, or at least an 
Anglophebe (sp?)....

Scott






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 04:25:25 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:25:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
References: <8r1nfo+4igh@eGroups.com> <39D559FE.4B51C8F8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <013601c02a96$76363960$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2533

Interesting theory Peg.  I couldn't help but feel sorry for Snape, though, when CoS stated Ron and Harry looking into the great hall, and making those remarks about him.  What teacher wouldn't be displeased to hear his students say those type of things, and perhaps even hold them against the students even further?

Dee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)




  Blaise wrote:

  > I've always wondered about Snape's poetic side.  I can't help
  > thinking of his very first entry, where he talks about brewing fame
  > and glory and stoppering death.  Lovely lyrical stuff!
  >
  > Snape does have a way with words, which he uses more often than not
  > as weapons and as tools for manipulating people.  But perhaps he's a
  > frustrated poet too?

  This is intriguing, a new way of looking at Snape.  Maybe . . . Snape has
  always seemed to me to be a character who is terribly frustrated.  And we're
  not quite what it is that he's frustrated about.  What is it about Harry
  that gets his knickers in such a twist?  Perhaps he does want the DADA job,
  perhaps not-- as several have pointed out, it's just a rumor.

  But it makes me wonder--if life had turned out exactly the way Snape had
  wanted it to, what kind of life would he have?  If he wasn't so frustrated,
  what would make him happy?  Maybe he'd rather be a research chemist, with no
  teaching duties (no dunderheads to deal with), writing poetry on the side?
  Do you understand what I mean?  Does he want a different job?  A different
  childhood?  A large cafe latte?

  What would Snape see in the Mirror of Erised?

  Peg

  > -Blaise, who's been thinking too much about Snape lately.

  That's all right, Blaise--we all have.

  >>>

  No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably Cooperative
  Attitude.


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 03:32:41 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:32:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
References: <md5:D53A4A035FB425F7A3C757B1837CAAE6>
Message-ID: <39D55ED9.43BDEE1A@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2534



ReEse wrote:

> >   He's incredibly powerful - but if he used it to full extent he could make things go *just so* and everything would be perfect - but who learns anything? and what a sterile world. I'm having an echo of some kids book here - anyone know whick one? (not the just so bit
> >
> >  ok, so I remember which book it is - its the end of "the dark is rising" sequence, the speech Merriman give to Will, the bad news is that you are going to have to take my word for it because I can't find it to quote. I swear someone is coming in to my house and stealing my books - first "chewing gum rescue" and now this!
> >
> >  storm
> *******************************************************************
>
> storm, it's on "Silver on the tree"( oh, god I love that book! :))
> I think that the quote you meant was this:
>
> "For Drake is no longer in his hammock, children, nor is Arthur somewhere sleeping, and you may not lie idly expecting the second coming of anybody now, because the world is yours and it is up to you. Now especially since man has the strength to destroy this world, it is the responsibility of man to keep it alive, in all its beauty and marvelous joy,,,,and the world will still be imperfect, because men are imperfect. Good men will still be killed by bad, or sometimes by other good men, and there will still be pain and disease and famine, anger and hate. But if you work and care and are watchful, as we have tried to be for you, then in the long run the worse will never, ever, triumph over the better...."

This is almost EXACTLY what Rowling says in that most recent interview  when asked what was her seminal philosophy underpinning the books.

For those of you who haven't listened to it yet, go to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/djs/mayo.shtml

Peg

(Good luck on your taekwondo examinations.  If this was theater, we would say, "Break a leg," but I imagine that's not what you say to wish someone luck in taekwondo examinations.  So I won't.)





From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 03:30:32 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:30:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEBICJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <39D55E57.299A1A42@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2535

Simon Branford wrote:

> Yes he could have been treated a lot better, but I cannot remember any
> instance where we are told he was hit by Petunia or Vernon.

I am not a pro in the field, but I believe it's a common misconception that
abuse must be physical. The constant belittling, if taken to enough of an
extreme, would qualify. However, I also believe that part of being abused is
accepting it, and in my opinion Harry is not abused because within himself he
has not "bought" any of the brainwashing the Dursleys are attempting.

--Amanda, hope I made sense, it's very late and today was my son's 4th
birthday...




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 03:35:24 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:35:24 -0000
Subject: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
In-Reply-To: <39D559FE.4B51C8F8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8r3n1s+ccv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2536

Poor Snape is the poster child for the Frustrated isn't he? I really 
felt Madame Pomphrey should have given him a Valium in PoA during his 
big yelling scene in the hospital wing.

Perhaps teaching isn't his desired vocation. I have speculated that 
Snape is only at Hogwarts because he is under Dumbledore's protection 
since he betrayed V by becoming a spy for Dumbledore. 

Maybe if Snape were to look in the Mirror of Erised he would be on a 
beach somewhere, sipping a cool drink and working on his tan (and 
finally wash his greasy hair!)

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Blaise wrote:
> 
> > I've always wondered about Snape's poetic side.  I can't help
> > thinking of his very first entry, where he talks about brewing 
fame
> > and glory and stoppering death.  Lovely lyrical stuff!
> >
> > Snape does have a way with words, which he uses more often than 
not
> > as weapons and as tools for manipulating people.  But perhaps
he's 
a
> > frustrated poet too?
> 
> This is intriguing, a new way of looking at Snape.  Maybe . . . 
Snape has
> always seemed to me to be a character who is terribly frustrated.  
And we're
> not quite what it is that he's frustrated about.  What is it about 
Harry
> that gets his knickers in such a twist?  Perhaps he does want the 
DADA job,
> perhaps not-- as several have pointed out, it's just a rumor.
> 
> But it makes me wonder--if life had turned out exactly the way
Snape 
had
> wanted it to, what kind of life would he have?  If he wasn't so 
frustrated,
> what would make him happy?  Maybe he'd rather be a research
chemist, 
with no
> teaching duties (no dunderheads to deal with), writing poetry on
the 
side?
> Do you understand what I mean?  Does he want a different job?  A 
different
> childhood?  A large cafe latte?
> 
> What would Snape see in the Mirror of Erised?
> 
> Peg
> 
> > -Blaise, who's been thinking too much about Snape lately.
> 
> That's all right, Blaise--we all have.
> 
> >>>
> 
> No, that's my sister.  I'm La Belle Dame Sans a Reasonably 
Cooperative
> Attitude.




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 03:33:06 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:33:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
References: <8r36td+qabf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D55EF2.D2C023E8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2537

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

>          The poem is written on a piece of *paper* (not parchment). This
> is a  studied insult which would affect only one who has a Muggle past
> and is sensitive about it: a very Snape thing to do IMHO...unless this
> is another one of those 'ancestor/descendant' type oversights.

I'm a bit slow tonight, sorry, but even if it was paper rather than
parchment, why would this be construed as an insult? And why would Snape
bother with such a tiny subtle thing, when it's an all-purpose barrier
designed as a cog in a system to stop Whoever Tries (Muggle or not)?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 03:36:33 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:36:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Tae kwon do
References: <200009292323.SAA27436@mw4.texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D55FC0.B6C842D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2538

ReEse wrote:

> *(who is half excited and nervous for tomorrow, because she will be having her examinations in taekwondo)*

And best of luck to you! My husband learned tae kwon do in Korea, zillions of years ago, and used to have a school.

--Amanda




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 03:44:42 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:44:42 -0000
Subject: Pushing HP, was factoids; PS: Voldy's wand
In-Reply-To: <00d001c02801$79695b40$fd66073e@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8r3nja+i8vp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2539

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Alix Petty" <bel_imperia at b...> 
wrote:
> > And *somewhere* in book 4 is a mention of why Dumbledore keeps 
sending
> Harry
> > back to the Dursleys--some sort of "do you know how well 
protected he is
> > there" or something, that I dimly remember mentions old magic too-
--I
> > couldn't find it on a quick scan, anyone know what I'm talking 
about?
> 
> Yeah, apparently Harry can't be touched while he's with blood 
relatives, and
> in order to bring that about, old magic was invoked.  Which could 
possibly
 be another reason why Voldemort couldn't seriously 
injure him when he was
 with his parents, quite apart from Lily's sacrifice.
  Don't know about anyone else, but I was strongly reminded 
of the Deeper Magic from before the Dawn of Time, which
 saves Aslan  in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe - 
I was also thinking of this regarding Lily's sacrifice.
 In both books innocent parties willingly sacrifice 
their lives to save  another, although in Aslan's
 case the magic works because he was sacrificed
>in the stead of a traitor, and he returns to life,
 whereas Lily dies trying  to protect her innocent son,
 and isn't even aware of the protection she
> bestows on Harry.
> 
> Alix

JKR has stated that the the Narnia chronicles were an influence
on her, so it's not surprising that there is a parallel.

There seems to be a ton of magic, and magical spells. We know very 
little about how house elf magic works, or goblin magic, or giant 
magic! So, it's very plausible that there is magic that Voldemort
overlooked or has forgotten.

It definitely states that Harry is safe with the Dursleys (which DOES 
provide SOME reason that Professor Dumbledore left him there!)

Re: blood magic. The letting of blood always releases power. The 
intention in letting it has profound implications on what happens to 
the power that is released. Voldemort forcibly taking blood from 
Harry and coercing it from Peter Pettigrew -- that spell is just not 
going to be as efficacious as Lily protecting her son.








From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 03:44:09 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:44:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cultural Differences and examinations. Also a  mention of bouncing ferrets. This post is long.
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEBJCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <39D56188.CBB6C5CF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2540

Just a quick note on exams for Simon. My father went to Rice in Houston, back
when it was the Rice Institute, and he told me his best, worst exam. It was in
human parasitology (whatever the real term is). They'd spent all semester
learning what you could pick up, how, where, etc., but writing no papers, taking
no tests. The final exam was the whole grade, and consisted of one question,
something along the lines of, "You're in Central Mexico (or someplace) in
September. What parasites should you worry about picking up and how would you
get them? Discuss."

---Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 04:02:40 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:02:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ok.  Questions, comment, and altogether musing  brought out of SS!
References: <01ad01c02a7d$e97966e0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <39D565DF.A4F9BBC5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2541

Denise, just a quick note. Paracelsus, at least, was an historical figure widely reputed to have been an alchemist. If you want details, I must email my old friend who was into the whole alchemy phenomenon of the Middle Ages.

I'll look at the rest later.

--Amanda





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 04:14:17 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 04:14:17 -0000
Subject: Why Hermione Doesn't Like Ron
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000929200909.102.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8r3pap+u8al@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2542

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
> On 29.09.2000 at 07:19:33 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> >  I think she was pissed off
> >that he
> >thought he could try to find a prettier date & then when he 
couldn't
> >that he could just ask good old Hermione, waiting in the wings.
> >She'd
> >have had the same reaction if Harry treated her that way.  Ron just
> >exhibited more boorish behavior than Harry.
> 
> True, as long as it was somebody she cared about who snubbed her 
like
> this. I am not eager to fix Hermione up with Ron at all cost. At 
this
> point in the story everything is still possible, nobody heads
> single-mindedly into a certain relationship, and I like it that way
> because it is more realistic. But there is a budding awareness of a
> different level of relationships.
> 
> >The Farmer in the Dell Theory (mine -- dubbed so by Ebony & her
> >students) is that Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and 
Harry
> >likes either noone or someone outside the Trio.
> 
> That much I figured out by myself, but I'd like to know why it was
> dubbed that and thus add another tidbit to my huge store of useless
> details that clogg up my brain and don't leave room for more useful
> knowledge. ;-)
> Is this some kind of poem or song?

It's an insipid and sexist nursery rime here in the States. It's 
sexist because it assumes farmers are all men.

1) It is true that the relationships that begin as adolescent 
bickerings sometimes end up as relationships where people fight 
bitterly with each other. This is NOT, however, an argument against
there being an incipient relationship. Hermione and Ron seem much more
invested in each other than Hermione and Harry are --- Harry kind of
checks out of some of their arguments. 

2) So, we agree that Ron is infatuated with Hermione.

3) There is no evidence that Harry is infatuated with Hermione. None.

4) I suggest that people do NOT become "oddly formal" with each other 
and that that (of all the lines) indicates that Hermione and Ron will 
end up dating/having a relationship. 

I wonder if people who insist that Hermione do not like Ron -- don't 
like Ron themselves? I like Ron quite a bit, and I think he is quite
equal to Hermione and that he will not be intimidated by her being 
prefect and/or Head Girl. Who knows? He may intellectually blossom
and become Head Boy. He certainly has the ability, just not the 
desire.

I maintain that he will become the strategist in the war against 
Voldemort and will find a place in the world different from all his 
brothers but quite outstanding.

Susan




> 
> >Agreed that he needs to find an area to excel in.  Is he really
> >going to
> >do that if his romantic interest is constantly outshining him &
> >triggering his jealous insecurities at every turn?  No - I don't
> >think
> >Ron needs an "adoring little woman."  But, I think his romantic
> >partner
> >shouldn't be a clear superstar.  I think he should have a romance
> >where
> >he & his partner are on more or less even footing.  To be second
> >fiddle
> >in yet another area of his life is clearly not what Ron needs. 
> 
> Certainly not. But I don't think Ron is able to pick a partner with
> that in mind, steer his feelings in this way, any more than he can
> give up his dream of being head boy and Quidditch star as seen in 
the
> Mirror of Erised and instead go for a brilliant career in wizard
> chess, which just isn't as prestigious as Quidditch and can't give
> him the same kind of satisfaction. I can't think of a better way to
> put it. 
> 
> Greetings
> Christina
> 
>  "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message
>  and get back to you later." - Mary Bly
> 
> Book and movie reviews in German and English
> http://sites.inka.de/darwin




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 04:15:31 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:15:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ok.  Questions, comment, and altogether musing  brought out of SS!
References: <8r3jej+snnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D568E2.DADDAA8E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2543

milz wrote:

> I think "smelt" has something to do with refining metal ore. IF so,
> then maybe "Smelting" is a place where one is supposed to be
> "refined", as in a finishing school?

Well, I finally looked it up. As I thought I recalled, a smelt (noun) is
"any of certain small food fishes which closely resemble the trout in
general structure. To smelt (verb) is to melt or fuse, as ore, usually to
separate the metal. And it's the past and past participle of "to smell," at
least in Britain where their strong verbs are not fading so rapidly as in
American English. So I suspect that with the fish and smelly connotations,
JKR picked it because having such a ridiculous word being treated with such
reverence by the Dursleys is funny.

--Amanda




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 04:19:57 2000
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Susan McGee)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 04:19:57 -0000
Subject: Neville
In-Reply-To: <013801c028ab$596b5960$9c3963c3@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <8r3pld+qsn5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2544

I've been thinking about Neville and the role he will play.

Will he die? Will he betray Harry? Will he become the
unexpected hero?




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 04:31:24 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:31:24 -0500
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Anger
Message-ID: <39D56C9C.660A3877@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2545

I think about writing about anger in relation to Rowling's work, and the
prospect is almost overwhelming.  I mean, think about it--EVERYONE gets
angry in this series at one time or another, heroes and villains both.
Dumbledore, Voldemort, McGonnagall, Snape (of course), Harry, Ron,
Hermione, Sirius, Lupin, Draco (of course), Lucius Malfoy, Cornelius
Fudge, Amos Diggory, Madame Pomfrey, Madame Hooch--and the list goes on
and on.  Heck, just about everyone gets the chance to flail themselves
into a good tantrum or two.  (As a writer, I understand this.  Tantrums
can be a lot of fun to write.)

So, rather than evaluating every individual hissy fit, which would run
on ad infinitum (until everyone would get bored and delete the email
without reading all the way until the end) I want to take a look at
anger in general--what functions does it serve?

Well, anger splinters relationships, causing division and conflict
between allies--and conflict, of course, is the engine of plot.  Think
of the fight between Hermione and Ron over Crookshanks and the
Firebolt.  Think of how Snape's anger over the trick Sirius played on
him affected the events in the Shrieking Shack in PoA--he wasn't willing
to listen to Lupin and Sirius because he was still nursing that old
grudge--look at all the consequences that followed.  Remember how
Dumbledore chided Snape and Sirius to put their anger aside so that the
group as a whole can fight Voldemort.

Anger tests judgment.  If you know the difference between right and
wrong, the test of whether you will stick to your principles often comes
when you are really, really angry.  Will you do the right thing even
when you've lost your temper?  Think of all the times Ron slugs Draco
because Draco has really pissed him off, even though, logically, he
knows Draco's just yanking his chain.  Remember how Harry's rage at Aunt
Marge made him lose control of himself and break the rules governing
minors' use of magic.  Think of Snape baiting Harry, threatening him
with the Veritaserum, and how hard Harry works to control his anger in
this scene, knowing that if he loses his temper here, he'll blow
everything, getting Hermione and Dobby into trouble.  A more serious
example is how Sirius is tempted by his anger to murder Pettigrew out of
cold blood, rather than turn him over to the proper authorities.

Anger can be exploited by the enemy.  One quick example: Lucius Malfoy
used the confusion resulting after he baited Arthur Weasley's anger
(getting Arthur to explode) to plant Tom Riddle's diary on Ginny.

Anger comes when you're backed up against the wall, when you have to
decide what's really important to you, what side you stand on when the
chips are down.  (Remember Harry's anger when he declared to Ron and
Hermione, "I'm going through that trap door tonight and nothing you can
say is going to stop me!  Voldemort killed my parents, remember?")

Anger when channeled correctly, gives power and determination, helps
strengthen wavering courage in times of danger (think of Dumbledore's
anger when confronting the false Mad-Eye Moody, or Hermione resolving to
uncover how Rita Skeeter is spying on them, simply because she is so
angry over the Daily Prophet stories).

Okay, that's what I come up with off the top of my head.  Other comments
re: functions that anger serves in Rowling's books?

Peg




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 05:02:59 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:02:59 -0000
Subject: Should Harry Potter die?
Message-ID: <8r3s63+kgf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2546

Dear Editor

I note that in the pages of The Daily Profit there is much 
speculation and disagreement over exactly what Harry Potter's last 
words were. From his first year at Hogwarts Mr. Potter always thought 
of me as a second father, so nothing could please me more than to 
inflate his already considerable legend by confirming some of the 
profound and moving dying words attributed to him. However I feel it 
is my duty to history to set the record straight. I was as close to 
Mr. Potter as anyone when he expired and although his voice was weak 
I could understand him well enough and I can tell you that Harry 
Potter said absolutely nothing of the slightest importance, he just 
said goodbye.

Professor Severus Snape






From elowyl at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 05:25:14 2000
From: elowyl at yahoo.com (Eunice )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:25:14 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Anger
In-Reply-To: <39D56C9C.660A3877@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8r3tfq+12fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2547

I figure it really is human to feel anger... without the numerous 
outbursts, i think everything would just seem too perfect, and we'd 
never be able to relate to the characters coz they'd be so far 
fetched - which person has never ever been pushed over the edge? Even 
the calmest person is liable to lose his/her cool at times! 

And it is scary if one actually starts holding his anger within... 
the anger would be pratically eating him from within - the prospect 
is kinda scary! Imagine if Ron witheld his frustrations with Harry in 
GoF... we'd never know when all that restrained anger would just turn 
to hate for Harry.... at least with that big outburst, it cleared the 
air, establishing them stronger as friends.

Eu




From elowyl at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 06:06:19 2000
From: elowyl at yahoo.com (Eunice )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:06:19 -0000
Subject: Chocolate
Message-ID: <8r3vsr+sln8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2548

Just wondering... why is chocolate used to restore one's wamth after 
a chilly encounter with the Dementors?? Why not something else? My 
friend suggested that eating chocolate was perhaps like a joy to many 
and thus the use of it... But what if one doesn't particularly favour 
chocolate? Suggestions?

Eu




From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Sat Sep 30 00:21:35 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:21:35 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] various small HP factoids
Message-ID: <mailman.4.1576214366.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2549

I'd like to add one! A few weeks ago I went to powerbooks and there were about 2 people(adults) reading HP 1. And I saw this girl who went over to the counter and placed down HP 1,2,3 and 4(all hardcover). I think that was pretty cool. :)

Reese :) 




>On Tue, 26 September 2000, "Joywitch " wrote:
>
>> 3.  On a recent plane trip to the West Coast, someone in the row behind me AND someone in the row in front of me were reading HP books.  Both were adults.  (We are everywhere!)
>



>Riding home on the subway yesterday, I noticed seven different people reading the books - 4 people had the hardbacks (all four were represented), 1 had the paperback of Sorcerer's Stone and 2 had the recent paperback of Chamber of Secrets.  And yes, they were all adults.  I always take the time to actively look now!
>
>voicelady
>




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 06:31:59 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:31:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chocolate
References: <8r3vsr+sln8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D588DF.601C24C8@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2550

Eunice wrote:

> Just wondering... why is chocolate used to restore one's wamth after
> a chilly encounter with the Dementors?? Why not something else? My
> friend suggested that eating chocolate was perhaps like a joy to many
> and thus the use of it... But what if one doesn't particularly favour
> chocolate? Suggestions?
>
> Eu

As I understand it, and I don't remember where I picked up this information
(some interview or other), Rowling's invention of the dementors was based on
her own experience with clinical depression, right after coming back to
London, after her divorce.  When the dementors approach you, you are left
with only the worst experiences of your life, until you collapse.  You can't
think, you feel cold and despairing.  THAT's depression.

And it is true the chocolate is helpful for people suffering from
depression, for chemical reasons.  Again, I can't remember where I read
this, but some research has been done into the reasons why depressed people
crave and are helped by chocolate.  It has to do with the seratonin uptake
spots in the brain--something chemical in chocolate affect the same parts of
the brain which processes the chemicals that regulate mood.

(Help me out with the explanation, somebody; I never took biochemistry).

Anyway, I'm guessing that Rowling put that detail in because she found
eating chocolate helpful when she was depressed.

Peg




From fluctuation at rocketmail.com  Sat Sep 30 06:37:43 2000
From: fluctuation at rocketmail.com (fluctuation at rocketmail.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:37:43 -0000
Subject: Chocolate
In-Reply-To: <8r3vsr+sln8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r41nn+a0s3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2551

Well, it is probably a whimsical invention of Miss Rowling's, after 
all, many women have an affinity towards chocolate especially after 
menstrual peroids or times of hightened hormonal changes. Could be 
that she thinks chocolate makes people happy and thus banishes the 
sadness that dementors incite. 






From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep 30 06:48:17 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks A. Rowlett)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:48:17 -0500
Subject: Wands & apparating, Majorca, Chocolate and dementors
References: <970293989.18935@egroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D58CB1.D595935D@indy.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2552

1) I think it is pretty well demonstrated that wands are NOT something
needed for apparating.  We don't see anybody apparate and then stow
his/her wand in the robe after arrival.  I contend that it is an
'internally spoken' spell, one you just *think* to make happen.
Sirius may not apparate because he is one of the wizards who cannot, or
else doesn't like it.

2) Majorca is one of the Balearic islands in the Mediterranean, due
south of Barcelona.  Other islands include Minorca ('Major' and 'minor',
get it?) and Ibiza; IIRC, Ibiza is considered the most upscale of the
resorts.  Majorca is indeed a popular European vacation spot.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/sp-map.jpg  <----map alone

3) Chocolate is good for Dementor effects because it is good for you.
:-)  

Seriously, chocolate is known to cause a slight increase in endorphins -
 brain chemicals which give some sense of pleasure and well-being, and
also some suppression of pain.  Since the effect of Dementor gaze is in
essence identical to major depression, anything which enhances a state
of wellbeing helps recovery.  Note that while commercial chocolate
produdcts tend to have too much fat or sugar for health, chocolate
itself (think of it as a spice that is used to flavor other things -
so-called 'white chocolate' is in fact the other things without the
spice) has recently been demonstrated to have some arterial
anti-blocking properties, and it provides a general sense of
pleasantness and well-being without the consequences of some other drugs!

Supposedly, the endorphin stimulation of chocolate is insufficient to
make a noticeable difference in a human brain, but other research now
shows that the craving and sense of deprivation in many people who are
denied chocolate actually does appear to have some physical, not just
psychological cause - some 2/3rds of women and 1/3 of men have chocolate
cravings, which is interesting since women are also twice as likely as
men to be diagnosed with depression 

-Brooks A Rowlett



From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph  Sat Sep 30 07:00:39 2000
From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (ReEse)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:00:39 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
Message-ID: <mailman.5.1576214366.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 2553


"Susan McGee" wrote:>I've been thinking about Neville and the role he will play.>Will he die? Will he betray Harry? Will he become the unexpected hero?>


Hmmm...so many questions! :) I've always wondered why Neville ended up in Gryffindor. He seems to be more of a Hufflepuff to me. Maybe he does have some *big* role to play in the future books. I find it highly possible. I mean, his parents did die because of Voldemort and his deatheaters. Maybe someday he will take revenge and help out Harry. But I don't think he's the type of person to do that, to take revenge I mean.. Who knows? I also don't think he will betray Harry. He can't! I won't accept it!!! 

Reese :)



From msmacgoo at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 10:22:52 2000
From: msmacgoo at hotmail.com (storm stanford)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:22:52 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster
Message-ID: <OE7FRaqbC8wSA1XvpFV00001a14@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2554

yes ReEse you've got it exsactly! thank you

hope you went well/go well with your exam

storm

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ReEse 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 9:26 AM
  Subject: Re: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore as Headmaster




  >   He's incredibly powerful - but if he used it to full extent he could make things go *just so* and everything would be perfect - but who learns anything? and what a sterile world. I'm having an echo of some kids book here - anyone know whick one? (not the just so bit
  >
  >  ok, so I remember which book it is - its the end of "the dark is rising" sequence, the speech Merriman give to Will, the bad news is that you are going to have to take my word for it because I can't find it to quote. I swear someone is coming in to my house and stealing my books - first "chewing gum rescue" and now this!
  >
  >  storm
  *******************************************************************

  storm, it's on "Silver on the tree"( oh, god I love that book! :))
  I think that the quote you meant was this:

  "For Drake is no longer in his hammock, children, nor is Arthur somewhere sleeping, and you may not lie idly expecting the second coming of anybody now, because the world is yours and it is up to you. Now especially since man has the strength to destroy this world, it is the responsibility of man to keep it alive, in all its beauty and marvelous joy,,,,and the world will still be imperfect, because men are imperfect. Good men will still be killed by bad, or sometimes by other good men, and there will still be pain and disease and famine, anger and hate. But if you work and care and are watchful, as we have tried to be for you, then in the long run the worse will never, ever, triumph over the better...."


  (whew...! That was a long one!) I'm pretty sure that was what you meant. This just goes to show how men/women's actions can have a great effect on others and the world. Imagine how powerful Dumbledore really is, and remember Dumbledore is the only person that Voldemort fears. I wonder why that is? Any ideas? Could it be that he displays so much goodness and love that the sight of him makes Voldemort uneasy because he doesn't understand fully what *love is, and he doesn't want to be associated with it? I think love is a very powerful magic if you think about it. 



     Dumbledore as  a headmaster......hmmm....this got me thinking. I find Dumbledore to be a really wise and knowledgeble person. And his method of running hogwarts may be for some(like Fudge) well, not normal.And imagine the reaction of some parents when he hired Snape for the potions professor and Hagrid as a care for magical creatures teacher.Dumbledore's ways aren't traditional and he likes to do what he thinks is best for the students even though sometimes he doesn't abide with the regulations. And that's what makes him an independent thinker and a great headmaster. 


  Come to think of it, he could have gotten any job because of his reputation of defeating Grindelwald and god knows what else. Why do u think he opt to become a headmaster of a school?  
      



  Reese :)

  *(who is half excited and nervous for tomorrow, because she will be having her examinations in taekwondo)*


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 30 10:37:45 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:37:45 -0700
Subject: Several topics
Message-ID: <39D5C278.F0E0BF8F@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2555

1. If the audience, or even the judges, could see Task 3, why didn't
they see "Moody" interfering? If the audience couldn't see Task 3, why
did the Champions' families come all the way there to watch?

2. I keep saying that Ron needs to seek his glory in a field that none
of his brothers have. It has to be a field that supplies glory, not one
which is merely vitally useful like healing or strategy. I keep
recommending music, pop music, on a portable instrument like guitar or
Celtic harp, since it is a skill people always gather around to admire.
The example of the Weird Sisters indicates that some people even make a
living at it. If Ron survives long enough to finish school, perhaps he
will become a bigger celebrity than Harry and all children will dye
their hair bright but natural-type red to be like him. With so much
speculation on-list about the magical value and importance of music, it
might not even be a digression from fighting the Dark Side.

3. Thank you, Blaise, for the fanfic recommendations; I laughed my head
off at "Marriage of True Minds".

4. Dumbledore could not have been the one performing the Fidelius Charm,
or he would know that Peter had become the secret-keeper.

5. Actually, we don't KNOW that Tom Riddle, Sr, ever MARRIED Tom Marvolo
Riddle's mother. Suppose young Mirella Magicker  (I made up all these
names except Marvolo) lived in Little Hangleton in the 1920s with her
elderly (Victorian) parents Marvolo and Mercy Magicker, and Mirella fell
in love with young Master Tom, the son of the big house. She was
convinced that he loved her reciprocally, and that she knew better than
her old-fashioned parents about everything, and, in the name of free
love, she let her beloved seduce her into an hot sexual affair of
adolescent physical passion (I remember!) behind hedges and haystacks,
until she noticed she was pregnant. She told her beloved, confident that
he would respond by marrying her, and was quite shocked when he told her
that she's an emancipated modern girl who doesn't need a man to take
care of her, so she can just take care of this problem herself. She then
turned to her parents, who said "I told you so" but arranged the
old-fashioned remedy of elderly mother and adult daughter go on vacation
together and come back with a baby that they tell everyone was birthed
by elderly mother. The parents disapproved very much of giving the baby
the surname Riddle -- does she want to whole village to know whose
bastard the boy is? -- but when she died in childbirth, they named him
as she had wished because they viewed it as her last wish. When the
child was old enough to ask questions like "You're my grandma and
grandpa, where are my mum and dad?", they didn't tell him he was a
by-blow, but rather made up the story that Master Tom had married his
mother, and then divorced her because she was a witch. Not until they
died of old age (or of baby TMR's uncontrolled magical anger at some
normal piece of parenting) was TMR sent to a Muggle orphanage.

6. **IF** there is a certain physical resemblance between Harry and Tom
Marvolo Riddle and **IF** the resemblance means that they're related,
the relationship would have to be through James, not Lily, because Harry
so much resembles James. I don't think the resemblance means that
they're related, but only that JKR automatically thinks of a tall, thin,
man with messy black hair whenever she thinks of a charming man.
Charming young Tom Marvolo Riddle, charming young James Potter, and to
some extent also charming young Sirius Black (tho' I have the impression
that his black hair is somewhat less messy and his build is somewhat
less scrawny). If they ARE related, it could be that TMR inherited his
looks from his biological father and that James's mother was yet another
by-blow of Master Tom's (by a different mother), tall, skinny and
black-haired herself. Altho' for V to be Harry's grand-uncle on the
Muggle side wouldn't be such a great dramatic revelation....

7. Yew is the tree of death, depicted on Victorian mourning cameos
showing a woman weeping at a gravestone next to a tree. I know that yew
berries are poisonous and that yew wood is the natural composite that
made the English longbow so deadly, and TEX AND MOLLY IN THE AFTERLIFE
says that yews are planted in graveyards because they 'thrive on
corruption' i.e. eat rotting corpses.

While holly  has much more life-oriented associations. It is a symbol of
Christmas, which is not only the birth of their Savior for Christians,
but the time when the amount of sunlight in the day starts to lengthen.
Holly, ivy, and pine got that Xmas gig because, as evergreens, they are
among the few plants still green and visibly alive in the snow. My
friend showed me a medieval Tristan and Iseult tale in which King Mark
makes a compromise with Tristan: one will have her when the trees are
green and the other will have her when the trees are bare. King Mark
chooses when the trees are bare, since then the nights are longer, more
time for bed fun with his reluctant wife, but Tristan triumphantly
points out that Mark NEVER gets her, since the holly and the ivy are
NEVER bare.

8. I never understand why people who have Web browsers ask the e-group
questions that they would get faster answers if they asked a good search
engine. I remember that I saw that Cliodna is an Irish Celtic goddess on
a page of Celtic gods and goddesses that I found millennia ago when I
was looking up something else. I did a Web search just now and found
wide disagreement: Cliodna is goddess of beauty and/or the afterlife, a
minor sea goddess who was drowned by her father the sea god Manaanan Mac
Lir, the banshee of a couple of different named clans, the daughter of
the last High Druid before St Patrick.....

9. Pegg Kerr wrote: "Think of how Snape's anger over the trick Sirius
played on   him affected the events in the Shrieking Shack in PoA--he
wasn't willing to listen to Lupin and Sirius because he was still
nursing that old grudge--" I believe that the 'practical joke' was the
least of it: Severus already hated James and Sirius a great deal, and
probably hated Remus a lesser amount for being their friend, before that
happened. Sirius wouldn't have sent Severus off to be killed by a
werewolf if he hadn't had an on-going emnity with Severus, also known by
the grown-up Sirius's remarks about what an unpleasant child Severus had
been.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 14:56:28 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:56:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chocolate
References: <8r3vsr+sln8@eGroups.com> <39D588DF.601C24C8@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <00bb01c02aee$9d1bc600$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2556

Peg,
you've got the right idea.  It deals with the body's inability to regulate seratonin.  I am classified as a maniac-depressant, or bio-polar, meaning that this IS me!  Grins.  My body has a problem with both insulin and seratonin.  Unlike my personal experience with having too much insulin (hence, the need for more sugar), the seratonin is replaced (from what I hear from the psy.) via chocolate.  Sex and Paxil do the same thing, I was told.  I cannot make enough natural seratonin to keep up with the uptake, and have radical mood swings because of it.  I have sorta stabilized since I had Ian, for some reason, but I still get hit with depression at times....but it only lasts a few days now, rather than the months and months before the pregnancy.  Of course, my choice of cure, over paxil (which scared me when I was on it--I really had a reaction in my social relationships!) is chocolate!  Sex I don't care about as much ... lol.

If anyone can explain the chemical side, I will keep my fingers crossed for this answer!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peg Kerr 
  To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 1:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Chocolate


  Eunice wrote:

  > Just wondering... why is chocolate used to restore one's wamth after
  > a chilly encounter with the Dementors?? Why not something else? My
  > friend suggested that eating chocolate was perhaps like a joy to many
  > and thus the use of it... But what if one doesn't particularly favour
  > chocolate? Suggestions?
  >
  > Eu

  As I understand it, and I don't remember where I picked up this information
  (some interview or other), Rowling's invention of the dementors was based on
  her own experience with clinical depression, right after coming back to
  London, after her divorce.  When the dementors approach you, you are left
  with only the worst experiences of your life, until you collapse.  You can't
  think, you feel cold and despairing.  THAT's depression.

  And it is true the chocolate is helpful for people suffering from
  depression, for chemical reasons.  Again, I can't remember where I read
  this, but some research has been done into the reasons why depressed people
  crave and are helped by chocolate.  It has to do with the seratonin uptake
  spots in the brain--something chemical in chocolate affect the same parts of
  the brain which processes the chemicals that regulate mood.

  (Help me out with the explanation, somebody; I never took biochemistry).

  Anyway, I'm guessing that Rowling put that detail in because she found
  eating chocolate helpful when she was depressed.

  Peg


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Sep 30 14:04:15 2000
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:04:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
Message-ID: <id.30092000100415.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 2557

I love Neville.  He's my favorite character.  And while I don't think he'll become THE hero, I've a pretty strong feeling that he will be A hero, as soon as he starts liking and having cnfidence in himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I've been thinking about Neville and the role he will play.

Will he die? Will he betray Harry? Will he become the
unexpected hero?



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 14:59:43 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:59:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands & apparating, Majorca, Chocolate and dementors
References: <970293989.18935@egroups.com> <39D58CB1.D595935D@indy.net>
Message-ID: <00e501c02aef$12045cc0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2558

Ok, Brooks, you keep using abbreviations that I am not familiar with--  can you please spell this one out?  

IIRC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Sep 30 00:25:57 2000
From: Heather at hedmonds.fsnet.co.uk (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:25:57 +0100
Subject: Lupin - Physical Contact with Harry
References: <8qjp6v+4msm@eGroups.com> <014c01c029ca$d554a200$79c54b0c@cq5wu> <39D47D3C.33E22FB3@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <000401c02aeb$38b2d8a0$fd48893e@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 2559

> But thirdly, Lupin is a teacher.  And teachers have to be sensitive to
parental
> fears that if they touch the kids their teach, they're some kind of
perverts
> who are coming on to their kids.  (Maybe Ebony could speak to this a
little?)
> Maybe it's more an issue in America, where there have been several
scandals
> about teachers who did cross the line with their students, making everyone
> paranoid and gun-shy about litigation.

I am currently doing teacher trainning in the UK and one of the first things
we are taught is that we must never ever touch a child unless it is for
their own, another pupil or our safety then we may use "reasonable force".
Eg. I can separate two children involving in fisticuffs but I should not
pick up a crying nursery child to comfort it. If we don't follow these
guidelines we are laying ourselves open to assualt charges. Incidentally the
only man in my tutor group has also been told not only must he never touch a
child he must ensure he's never alone in a room with one. Sad world isn't
it.

Heather




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 15:34:55 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:34:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Several topics
References: <39D5C278.F0E0BF8F@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <019201c02af3$fcbc6b00$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2560

Thanks for this info, Rita!  I knew I was on the right track with that thought!

7. Yew is the tree of death, depicted on Victorian mourning cameos
showing a woman weeping at a gravestone next to a tree. I know that yew
berries are poisonous and that yew wood is the natural composite that
made the English longbow so deadly, and TEX AND MOLLY IN THE AFTERLIFE
says that yews are planted in graveyards because they 'thrive on
corruption' i.e. eat rotting corpses.

While holly  has much more life-oriented associations. It is a symbol of
Christmas, which is not only the birth of their Savior for Christians,
but the time when the amount of sunlight in the day starts to lengthen.
Holly, ivy, and pine got that Xmas gig because, as evergreens, they are
among the few plants still green and visibly alive in the snow. My
friend showed me a medieval Tristan and Iseult tale in which King Mark
makes a compromise with Tristan: one will have her when the trees are
green and the other will have her when the trees are bare. King Mark
chooses when the trees are bare, since then the nights are longer, more
time for bed fun with his reluctant wife, but Tristan triumphantly
points out that Mark NEVER gets her, since the holly and the ivy are
NEVER bare.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 14:47:15 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:47:15 -0000
Subject: Holly
In-Reply-To: <39D5C278.F0E0BF8F@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <8r4udj+p1e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2561

Well of course! 

"The Holly and the Ivy,
When they are both well grown,
Of all the trees in the wood, 
The Holly bears the crown...."

Not the most-sung Christmas song but certainly quite well known, I'm 
suprised I din't pick up on this Idea of Holly before...

Scott


> While holly  has much more life-oriented associations. It is a 
symbol of
> Christmas, which is not only the birth of their Savior for 
Christians,
> but the time when the amount of sunlight in the day starts to 
lengthen.
> Holly, ivy, and pine got that Xmas gig because, as evergreens, they 
are
> among the few plants still green and visibly alive in the snow. My
> friend showed me a medieval Tristan and Iseult tale in which King 
Mark
> makes a compromise with Tristan: one will have her when the trees 
are
> green and the other will have her when the trees are bare. King Mark
> chooses when the trees are bare, since then the nights are longer, 
more
> time for bed fun with his reluctant wife, but Tristan triumphantly
> points out that Mark NEVER gets her, since the holly and the ivy are
> NEVER bare.
> 





From geirsmith at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 14:49:47 2000
From: geirsmith at aol.com (geirsmith at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:49:47 -0000
Subject: e-mail
Message-ID: <8r4uib+s6nj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2562

Hi, I've cancelled e-mail from HP for grown-ups. I'm submerged. I 
also cancelled news e-mail from my other group. Could you check if 
that is going to happen, somebody? Most thankful Geir Smith




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 15:07:01 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:07:01 -0000
Subject: e-mail
In-Reply-To: <8r4uib+s6nj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r4vil+3uf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2563

If you don'trecieve anymore E-mails then you cancelled it 
correctly...anyway, I just read the messages on the site as I have 
unlimited internet access, but some people pay by the minute and 
therefore need the E-mail option....

Scott


-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, geirsmith at a... wrote:
> Hi, I've cancelled e-mail from HP for grown-ups. I'm submerged. I 
> also cancelled news e-mail from my other group. Could you check if 
> that is going to happen, somebody? Most thankful Geir Smith




From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 15:36:47 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:36:47 -0000
Subject: The worst possible ending
Message-ID: <8r51af+kl1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2564

I don't have the ability to write the perfect ending for the Harry 
Potter saga but I've done the next best thing. I believe I've come up 
with the worst possible way to end it. I challenge anyone to come up 
with a last page of book 7 that is more disappointing, more artless, 
more joy destroying, more stupid, than this. If Rowling were to 
actually write something of this sort she would be hunted down and 
lynched by an angry mob of torch wielding fans. I'd be happy to bring 
the rope.


The applause every student and teacher at Hogwarts was giving Harry 
for his heroic defeat of Voldemore seemed like it would never end. 
Draco Malfoy gave him a sincere handshake and begged to be forgiven 
for all the terrible things he said about him. There were tears in 
the eyes of Snape as he hugged Harry like a brother. Dumbledore 
beamed at him with pride, put his hand on Harry's shoulder and 
said "Get up you lazy stupid brat! Why can't you be more like Dudly, 
he's such a sweet boy."
"What?" said Harry groggily as he looked around. He was in the 
Durseley's tiny closet under the stairs. "You heard me, wake up!" 
bellowed Uncle Vernon "You can't be late for your first day at work 
at the toothpaste factory. I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the 
time, you've graduated from high school now and your freeloading days 
are over, you're going to have to start pulling your weight around 
here. And no breakfast today, Dudly's on a diet." Harry got up, he 
wished it was real, he wished he really was a wizard, but he knew 
there was nothing special about him except that he was the only one 
at school who got picked on every day for having such a silly looking 
scar.        

THE END






From lrcjestes at msn.com  Sat Sep 30 15:48:40 2000
From: lrcjestes at msn.com (Carole Estes)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:48:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7 Deadly Sins: Anger
In-Reply-To: <39D56C9C.660A3877@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <000001c02af5$e7a9e880$f76a5ecf@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 2565

> Anger tests judgment.  If you know the difference between right and
> wrong, the test of whether you will stick to your principles often comes
> when you are really, really angry.  Will you do the right thing even
> when you've lost your temper?  Think of all the times Ron slugs Draco
> because Draco has really pissed him off, even though, logically, he
> knows Draco's just yanking his chain.  Remember how Harry's rage at Aunt
> Marge made him lose control of himself and break the rules governing
> minors' use of magic.


When Harry blows up Aunt Marge is one of my favorite parts of PoA.  It shows
a realistic reaction to the abuse Aunt Marge is giving Harry and it shows
him maturing in his self-confidence.  He is finally able to get angry at the
Dursleys abuse rather than just taking it.  I saw it as a realistic and
subtle way of showing that Harry is growing up...that he is not the 11 year
old in the cupboard anymore.  I like how his interactions with the Durseleys
get bolder each year.

I think it is a good thing for JKR to show the *hero* getting irrationally
angry sometimes, its a flaw and would be unexpected in a story where the
Hero was always good and pure and always knew just the right thing to do.
Harry's is such a good guy, but he's human and has limits to his *goodness*
...does that make sense.

I really enjoy your treatises on the 7 deadly sins in relation to these
books...it brings a depth to the discussions....

carole





From eggplant88 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 16:18:52 2000
From: eggplant88 at hotmail.com (eggplant88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:18:52 -0000
Subject: The worst possible ending
Message-ID: <8r53pc+famc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2566

Well ok, I'll tack on a happy ending.


Harry was working on the assembly line, doing what he always did, 
putting 41 caps on 41 tubes of toothpaste for every minute of his 8 
hour shift, when the idea occurred to him. He may not be a wizard but 
it's not everyone who can have a dream that detailed. Maybe he should 
write it all down, maybe he should write a book, maybe he could even 
sell a copy or two. But on further reflection he concluded that 
nobody would want to read such nonsense. Besides in 6 or 7 years he 
hoped to work his way up to 48 caps a minute and then he'd get a 2% 
raise, even better, when he was 65 the company would give him a solid 
gold toothpaste cap. With that happy thought Harry decided to 
concentrate on his lifelong career.       





From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 16:43:27 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:43:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chocolate
References: <8r41nn+a0s3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D6182E.A058B491@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2567

fluctuation at rocketmail.com wrote:

> Could be that she thinks chocolate makes people happy

It do, it do!

And in response to the person who asked, "what if you don't like chocolate?"
I'd say, lots of medicines/remedies I've had to take tasted awful, and after
dealing with a dementor, I'd eat *gasp* mushrooms or onions to feel better.
You do what you gotta do. Chocolate is prescribed.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 16:47:27 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:47:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands & apparating, Majorca, Chocolate and  dementors
References: <970293989.18935@egroups.com> <39D58CB1.D595935D@indy.net>
Message-ID: <39D6191F.CE7ECCCB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2568

"Brooks A. Rowlett" wrote:

> 1) I think it is pretty well demonstrated that wands are NOT something
> needed for apparating.  We don't see anybody apparate and then stow
> his/her wand in the robe after arrival.  I contend that it is an
> 'internally spoken' spell, one you just *think* to make happen.
> Sirius may not apparate because he is one of the wizards who cannot, or
> else doesn't like it.

That one must test to be allowed to Apparate, just as one must be a registered
Animagus, fits with my theory that magic sans wands is possible, but much more
dangerous. Other works involving magic that I've read have tended to interpret
the wand as a "focuser" of the force manipulated by the wielder's will, and as
such, give a measure of control. Like a pointer. Magic which is done without a
wand takes longer to learn and is much more dangerous, hence all the regulations
and approvals and testing.

Sound right?

--Amanda, who thought women got more depressed because they were home with only
five-year-olds for conversation more...where was that Hershey bar...?




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 16:49:50 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:49:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
References: <200009300657.BAA28467@mw5.texas.net>
Message-ID: <39D619AD.3D9B86AF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2569

ReEse wrote:

> Hmmm...so many questions! :) I've always wondered why Neville ended up in Gryffindor. He seems to be more of a Hufflepuff to me. Maybe he does have some *big* role to play in the future books. I find it highly possible. I mean, his parents did die because of Voldemort and his deatheaters.

By the way, did anyone notice in book 4 that just after Harry opened the gold egg for the first time, in the Gryffindor common room, Neville's reaction to the skreeky singing was that someone was being tortured with the Cruciatus Curse? I hadn't remembered that, found it the other day flipping through. Maybe he *did* witness the torture of his parents, and/or has had his memory supposedly benevolently altered. If so, I think Dumbledore's work-through-it as he used with Harry is a much better therapy, yes?

--Amanda




From brooksar at indy.net  Sat Sep 30 16:54:22 2000
From: brooksar at indy.net (Brooks R)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:54:22 -0000
Subject: Holly and Yew
Message-ID: <8r55ru+b3ot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2570

Hmmm, I found something rather different for yew - and more of
interest besides....

The other night at my local Half Price Books outlet (wonderful place, 
as Vicki says: "Our cars know the way there") I picked up a
children's book (I love modern children's books with some fanciful or 
historical tale which have really romantic or stylish  illustrations)
: 
_The Unicorn Alphabet_, by Marianna Mayer, pictures by Michael Hague.
Several of the entries were noteworthy - spookily so.    "There are
no coincidences."

Here are the relevant ones:

H (Harry's wand is holly) "The holly tree was once a talisman and,
like the unicorn's horn, a weapon against evil. Wih its pointed green
leaves and bright red berries, holly was planted during the Middle
Ages to protect agaiinst evil magic."

Y (Voldemort's wand is yew) "The yearling unicorn sleeps beneath the  
shelter of the yew tree.  Like the unicorn, the yew is a symol of 
immortaility.  One ancient and revered yew tree is believed to have 
survived for 2,000 years."

Another one to note: S " The serpent was the enemy of the unicorn. 
In medieval myth the serpent lives near a lake where the animals come 
to drink,  If not for the protection of the unicorn, the animals would
be prey to the wily serpent."

Lily.  In the appendix in the back, which deals with flowers
ilustrated in the border but not part of the text of the alphabetical 
entry:

"A fragrant and beautiful flower, the lily is the symbol of 
faithfulness in love and marriage.  The lily, like so many other 
flowers associated with the unicorn, was used against poisonous 
serpents."

MOST interesting.

-Brooks





From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 30 16:53:05 2000
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:53:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Holly
References: <8r4udj+p1e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D61A70.163D64C3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2571

Yeah, I'd asked whoever keeps up the lexicon---sorry, whoever, I'm lousy
with names---about the various traditional connotations of the many woods
that are mentioned that wands are made of. He has a list of the woods and
whose wand; it'd be neat to have the "properties" of each wood listed, too.
I know holly was positive, but for what, I don't recall.

--Amanda

Scott wrote:

> Well of course!
>
> "The Holly and the Ivy,
> When they are both well grown,
> Of all the trees in the wood,
> The Holly bears the crown...."
>
> Not the most-sung Christmas song but certainly quite well known, I'm
> suprised I din't pick up on this Idea of Holly before...
>
> Scott
>
> > While holly  has much more life-oriented associations. It is a
> symbol of
> > Christmas, which is not only the birth of their Savior for
> Christians,
> > but the time when the amount of sunlight in the day starts to
> lengthen.
> > Holly, ivy, and pine got that Xmas gig because, as evergreens, they
> are
> > among the few plants still green and visibly alive in the snow. My
> > friend showed me a medieval Tristan and Iseult tale in which King
> Mark
> > makes a compromise with Tristan: one will have her when the trees
> are
> > green and the other will have her when the trees are bare. King Mark
> > chooses when the trees are bare, since then the nights are longer,
> more
> > time for bed fun with his reluctant wife, but Tristan triumphantly
> > points out that Mark NEVER gets her, since the holly and the ivy are
> > NEVER bare.
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 30 17:13:40 2000
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:13:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 7 Deadly Sins: Anger
References: <000001c02af5$e7a9e880$f76a5ecf@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <39D61F44.E867C798@ibm.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2572



Carole Estes wrote:

> I really enjoy your treatises on the 7 deadly sins in relation to these
> books...it brings a depth to the discussions....
>
> carole

Thanks, Carole.  I appreciate the kudos--don't want to be boring people.

Peg




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 30 17:34:38 2000
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:38 -0000
Subject: 7 Deadly Sins: Anger
In-Reply-To: <39D56C9C.660A3877@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <8r587e+b8kh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2573

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at a...> wrote:

> A more serious
> example is how Sirius is tempted by his anger to murder Pettigrew 
out of
> cold blood, rather than turn him over to the proper authorities.
> 

Interesting post, as always, Peg.  I would argue, however, that the 
above is possibly not a good example.  I think that while Sirius was 
certainly driven partially by anger, he was also being logical.  
After all, the proper authorities are a bunch of inept idiots led by 
Cornelius Fudge, who let Sirius take the blame for a crime he didnt 
commit by jailing him without a trial.  It seems like common sense, 
in that case, to take the law into your hands.  Sirius knew he would 
be caught, he was risking his life to go after and kill Pettigrew so 
as to keep Harry save.  IMHO he was trying to do the right thing, but 
it is true that he also wanted to murder the #$*)&@# in cold blood.

-- Joywitch




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 30 17:46:08 2000
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:46:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chocolate
References: <8r41nn+a0s3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <39D626E0.9D1FAD89@the-beach.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2574

This is from WebMD.com:
(I apologize for the formatting)

> Your friend IS on a drug, and it's probably
>                    chocolate. Chocolate is an herbal medicinal, like
>                    coffee, tea and other herbal medicines. Just
>                    because it's a common part of our culture does
>                    not mean that it can't have real medicinal
>                    properties. This ancient native Central
>                    American delicacy was considered by the
>                    Mayas, Incas and Aztecs as a "gift of the gods,"
>                    touted for its stimulant and aphrodisiac qualities.
>                    But as with many things in life, chocolate is
>                    neither a god nor a devil. I'll give you all the
>                    details. Stick with me, this one is chock full of
>                    factoids.
>
>                           Various preparations of the Mexican cacao tree
>                    (Theobroma cacao) bean have been enjoyed for at
>                    least 1,000 years. It was only for the very wealthy in
>                    Aztec society, and cocoa beans were as close as they
>                    ever got to having a currency. In 1828, a Dutch food
>                    chemist perfected the technique of mixing cocoa
>                    powder with cocoa butter, so it would melt in your
>                    mouth. In 1878, the Swiss added milk to make our
>                    modern milk chocolate. The average American
>                    consumes 11.5 pounds of chocolate per year,
>                    whereas the Swiss consume twice this amount.
>                    Chocolate is by far the most craved substance in our
>                    culture, with 40 percent of women and 15 percent of
>                    men admitting to regular chocolate cravings.
>                           Now, researchers have taken this "addictive"
>                    quality of chocolate quite seriously. It turns out that
>                    there are a number of substances in chocolate that
>                    can affect our brain chemistry -- genuine
>                    pharmacological agents. Over 400 discrete
>                    compounds have been found in this stuff, and many of
>                    them can affect how you feel. A couple of
>                    compounds, called biogenic amines, are chemically
>                    related to adrenaline and amphetamine and show the
>                    ability to regulate mood and depression. Addicts
>                    weaned from the abuse drug "ecstasy" (MDMA)
>                    have been shown to develop strong chocolate
>                    cravings in response to getting clean.
>                           The sweet and fat in chocolate may directly
>                    stimulate brain opiate receptors, the same brain cells
>                    that respond to heroin and morphine. If that weren't
>                    bad enough, certain fatty acids in chocolate have
>                    been shown to activate the same receptors in the
>                    brain that are affected by marijuana. This compound,
>                    called anandamine, may activate the parts of the brain
>                    that respond to both cannabis and opiates, enhancing
>                    possible mood changes after a chocolate bar.
>                           The sugar in chocolate is usually table sugar,
>                    which isn't as bad as the high fructose corn syrup that
>                    sweetens almost everything else in our grocery stores.
>                    And the fat in chocolate does not seem to increase
>                    cholesterol levels. According to one report, it may
>                    actually raise the good form of cholesterol (HDL) and
>                    drop a bad form of fat (triglycerides) due to the high
>                    content of stearic acid in the cocoa butter.
>                           There is caffeine in chocolate, but only about 10
>                    milligrams per average 1.65-ounce bar, compared to
>                    about 80 mg in a cup of coffee. I wouldn't worry
>                    about this amount keeping you up all night. But there
>                    is a chemically related compound called theobromine
>                    as well, and this may enhance the caffeine effect.
>                           So, why do so many women crave chocolate
>                    just before their menstrual cycle? Now this gets
>                    interesting. It turns out that hormonal fluctuations can
>                    change a woman's brain chemistry, fat stores and
>                    appetite. She may crave sweet, high-fat foods at this
>                    time, so chocolate is a perfect choice. This
>                    carbohydrate-and-fat jolt can increase brain
>                    serotonin, the chemical responsible for depression
>                    and mood. In addition, chocolate is very high in
>                    magnesium, which has been shown to help with
>                    premenstrual symptoms. Experience teaches her that
>                    it's a perfect PMS food.
>                           What about chocolate being good for
>                    you? Well, it's not quite a health food, but it
>                    may be better for you than many other
>                    vices. Cocoa is packed full of a surprising number of
>                    antioxidants (compounds that can protect living tissue
>                    from chemical damage). A major one, called
>                    catechin, may help protect you from cardiovascular
>                    disease and cancer. It is also found in tea, but there
>                    are four times the levels of catechins in chocolate
>                    compared to black tea. The flavonoids in cocoa may
>                    thin your blood slightly and act as a mild
>                    anti-inflammatory. Chocolate's procyanidins have the
>                    ability to relax blood vessels, possibly decreasing
>                    internal arterial wall damage. And one average
>                    chocolate bar has the same level of the antioxidant
>                    phenols found in a glass of red wine.
>                           Now that you're all ready to run out and stock
>                    up on chocolate bars, let me remind you of the
>                    downside. Chocolate can increase stomach acid
>                    reflux and irritable bowel symptoms and cause
>                    allergic reactions, skin outbreaks, weight gain and
>                    dental cavities. Some patients say that chocolate can
>                    trigger a migraine headache. Though it does contain
>                    some tyramine, a common migraine trigger, a
>                    well-controlled study from the University of
>                    Pittsburgh in 1997 did not show chocolate to cause
>                    headaches.
>                           So what's the bottom line? Chocolate clearly has
>                    many properties of an herbal medicine and an unusual
>                    food. It is not the great evil that many people thought,
>                    and may actually be better for us than we ever
>                    realized. Of course, exercise is still the best mood
>                    enhancer I know of, and your daily diet shouldn't
>                    treat chocolate as one of the major food groups. But
>                    occasional to regular indulgence in moderate amounts
>                    is probably not a big deal. Our other cultural vices
>                    cause much illness and injury. Drug and alcohol abuse
>                    are rampant. So if you're going to be stepping up to a
>                    bar, you may want to make it a chocolate bar.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 19:10:19 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rohleder)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:10:19 -0500
Subject: Dobby/Tooth Fairies
Message-ID: <003501c02b12$13b971e0$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2575

Watching the Tenth Kingdom, I am reminded of Dobby, as I see the scene with the Tooth Fairy.

:)  

I wonder if that's the makeup they'll use in CoS?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 18:20:08 2000
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 18:20:08 -0000
Subject: The worst  ending & pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <8r51af+kl1g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8r5aso+odgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2576


Ok, I actually agree w/ you here. I would rename her Joanne 
"Voldemort" Rowling if she made the whole thing a dream.  I wouldn't 
put ANTTHING past her, but I really don't think that she would do 
such a thing.

Also, have you READ the books or just listened to them on tape?  Your 
spelling of Voldemort is phonetically correct, but the word is 
correctly spelled with a "T" on the end, you just don't hear it.

Another question- Why do you think that Harry would work at a 
toothpaste factory? That is if he doesn't die on his 19th birthday, 
as you have reiterated...

Scott   

> Eggplant wrote-
>>>>>>>>
> The applause every student and teacher at Hogwarts was giving Harry 
> for his heroic defeat of Voldemore seemed like it would never end. 
> Draco Malfoy gave him a sincere handshake and begged to be forgiven 
> for all the terrible things he said about him. There were tears in 
> the eyes of Snape as he hugged Harry like a brother. Dumbledore 
> beamed at him with pride, put his hand on Harry's shoulder and 
> said "Get up you lazy stupid brat! Why can't you be more like 
Dudly, 
> he's such a sweet boy."
> "What?" said Harry groggily as he looked around. He was in the 
> Durseley's tiny closet under the stairs. "You heard me, wake up!" 
> bellowed Uncle Vernon "You can't be late for your first day at work 
> at the toothpaste factory. I'm tired of being Mr. Nice Guy all the 
> time, you've graduated from high school now and your freeloading 
days 
> are over, you're going to have to start pulling your weight around 
> here. And no breakfast today, Dudly's on a diet." Harry got up, he 
> wished it was real, he wished he really was a wizard, but he knew 
> there was nothing special about him except that he was the only one 
> at school who got picked on every day for having such a silly 
looking 
> scar.        
> 
> THE END
>>>>>>>




From pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 30 19:57:07 2000
From: pogoniamalfoy at hotmail.com (Pogonia the Harry Potter fan)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:57:07 EDT
Subject: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
Message-ID: <F239NhXWitnXeRgSrIy00004224@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2577

On  Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:11:58  Peg Kerr <pkerr06 at attglobal.net> wrote:

>Blaise wrote:

>>I've always wondered about Snape's poetic side. I can't help
>>thinking of his very first entry, where he talks about brewing fame
>>and glory and stoppering death. Lovely lyrical stuff!
>>
>>Snape does have a way with words, which he uses more often than not
>>as weapons and as tools for manipulating people. But perhaps he's a 
>>frustrated poet too?
>
>This is intriguing, a new way of looking at Snape. Maybe . . . Snape has 
>always seemed to me to be a character who is terribly frustrated.
>And we're not quite what it is that he's frustrated about. What is it 
>about Harry that gets his knickers in such a twist?

LOL!  What an expression!  Snape with a wedgie!

IMHO it's clear that Snape wants two things: fame, and recognition of
his alliance to the Bright.  What does he rag on Harry about?  His
undeserved celebrity and his penchant for rule-breaking. The first
is because Snape wants some of that glory for himself (and perhaps
JKR will show us later that some of it truly does belong to him)
and the second is (a bit of a stretch perhaps) that Snape hates
the Dark side intensely and associates rule-breaking with the kind
of casual carelessness that can give the Dark an opening.

>Perhaps he does want the DADA job, perhaps not-- as several have pointed 
>out, it's just a rumor.

I think he doesn't, and that it's a red herring.

>But it makes me wonder--if life had turned out exactly the way Snape had 
>wanted it to, what kind of life would he have?If he wasn't so frustrated, 
>what would make him happy? Maybe he'd rather be a research chemist, with 
>no teaching duties (no dunderheads to deal with), writing poetry on the 
>side?

Good grief, he wants to be Roald Hoffman? or Carl Djerassi?

Actually, I agree with you but would add one thing: he also wants to
be head of a thriving research laboratory.  This would give him the
opportunity to supervise (control!) others as well as enjoying the
day to day rewards and challenges of his research.

>What would Snape see in the Mirror of Erised?

Himself accepting the Order of Merlin, first class, after speeches by
Dumbledore and Harry in which both acknowledge that Snape was
indirectly responsible for Voldemort's 1981 disappearance and directly
responsible for the Dark Lord's recent final defeat and the
surrender of all the Death Eaters.

Or maybe himself, refusing whatever decision in his past led to the
anger and bitterness that now consume him.

Best wishes,
Pogonia
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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Sep 30 20:34:40 2000
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon Branford)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:34:40 +0100
Subject: governors, examinations, punishments and then Dee's SS questions.
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMECHCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 2578

Scott wrote: "And is a board of governors the typical way to run an English
boarding school, or an American one for that matter (I attend public
schools, in the American sense of that word...)"

Most UK schools (public or state) have a board of Governors. They are
involved with the appointment of teachers at the school and are usually a
representation of the local community and parents with children at the
school. I am not really sure exactly what they are there for!

Amanda wrote: <<<The final exam was the whole grade, and consisted of one
question, something along the lines of, "You're in Central Mexico (or
someplace) in September. What parasites should you worry about picking up
and how would you get them? Discuss.">>>

This reminds me of a Philosophy Finals Examination question that I have
heard of. The question was 'What is confidence?' and the top mark went to
the student who gave the answer 'This is.'.

Scott wrote: "So to tie this horribly OT post back into HP, and maybe Simon,
Neil (BTW, where has he been lately???) and our other UK members can help me
out, is to ask can you see the parents of people (i.e., Molly Weasley,
Neville's Grandmother, or Hermione's Mum and Dad etc.) complaining about the
behaviour of Snape? That is if they were aware of it. I understand that
mostly it would not be a great issue, but I could see complaining about
making Neville pickle toads(and after all he's been through!)."

Neil has been at busy at work recently and is also busy with the work on the
FAQ's. I am sure he will be back posting again soon.

Again, the parents of the Hogwarts children can only complain if they know
there is something wrong that they need to complain about. Being at boarding
school the children do not have much opportunity to tell parents of problems
(this is much easier and believable face to face) and when returning home
for a holiday there probably seems little point in then doing so.

The punishment of Neville is no worse, and probably can be considered
better, than the Forbidden Forest incident. Hagrid tells Draco that he must
do it and that Lucifer would be perfectly happy that he is involved in such
a punishment. This implies that the punishment fits the crime. Maybe Neville
did nothing to deserve the pickling toads task and for reason the incident
could warrant a complaint.

Now onto some SS (or more correctly PS) points and questions raised by Dee.

"I am not certain what color tawny refers to exactly!"

Orange-brown.

"The word through out this chapter is "cloaks" never robes.  Are they just
wearing cloaks, else why the term?  Of course McG mentions not a on changed
to Muggle clothing later!"

I am beginning to think that the robes are a school uniform and that the
wizards wear fairly normal clothes underneath these. The cloaks are then
worn, like coats, on top of these clothes. A lot of the wizards do jobs
that, IMO, would involve them wearing smart clothes. I would assume that a
set of robes is equivalent to a suit and tie.

"There must be enough room in that cupboard for a bed, and did they just
plop the trunk on top of it in CoS?  It never says the bed got moved!"

This is basically what I was trying to say in connection with the bit on
abuse. I think cupboard makes it sound a lot smaller than it actually is.
Maybe it is just referring to the fact that there is no window to the room.
I basically think that Harry was not half as badly treated as I first felt.
He just lacked someone showing interest and love towards him.

"*..."Majorca...*  Where is this place?"

Majorca, or Mallorca, is one of the Balearic Islands. It is too be found in
the Mediterranean sea, west of Spain and north of Algeria.

"*...MUSTACHE...*  (aside to the person who asked!)"

That was me, but on the PoU group. Of course it is spelt differently in the
UK edition.

"*...Railview Hotel, Cokeworth...*  Where is Surrey and Cokeworth in
relation to each other?"

I have been unable to find such a place in the atlas I have in my room. I
will look for more information tomorrow, when I am back in Oxford and have
more resources at my disposal.

"*..."McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts"...*"

There is a Susan Bones mentioned during the sorting. She gets put in
Hufflepuff.

"*...peppermint humbugs...*  What are they?"

Sweets. Or should I write candy? Interestingly my dictionary defines humbugs
as being peppermint boiled sweets, making the flavour description pointless.

"*..."mother's up the street looking at wands"...*  How can Draco get a wand
when he isn't present for it?  Of course, I can assume, his father being who
he is, perhaps he already had his wand since toddler-hood, and this was a
replacement for his mother?"

Just because she was looking at them does not mean she was buying him one.
Or maybe all Malfoy's use a certain type of wand, regardless of how good it
is for them. Or maybe they do not have as much money as people make out.

"*..."That's you done, my dear."...*  Why did Draco's robes take longer than
Harry's?  Was he more particular, or is it a "associate" thing, were the
Madam works faster than her help?  Of course, if this is the case, with his
"snooty-ness", why didn't Draco (and family) DEMAND the Madam be the only
one to wait on the dark darling?"

As the Malfoy's are important people in the wizarding world it is possible
that Draco goes to lots of parties with his parents. Due to this he may also
have been being fitted for a set of dress robes at the same time.

"Is there any connection or opposition of these trees in history, or etc?
We know the feathers are the same.  Just looking for a connection with the
wood!"

Read Yahoo message #1283. It has a description of yew, holly, oak and
willow. The information will be included in the wand FAQ - I just have to
write it first!

Simon (I hope some of the above is helpful)





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 30 20:53:14 2000
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:14 -0700
Subject: Long, OT, Re: Abbreviation, Holly, Lily, Chocolate, Truffles
Message-ID: <39D652B9.95F6DED6@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 2579

IIRC is If I Recall (or Remember) Correctly, a vital abbreviation to
those of us who have widely forever and don't always remember in which
book we found a specific fact..

Some of these folklore books call holly 'male holly' and ivy 'female
holly' and one folklore 'expert' on the radio a few Xmases ago said that
the song, The Holly and the Ivy, started as a competitive song between
the boys singing why holly is the best and the girls singing why ivy is
the best, but only the holly verses were preserved since it was written
down by monks who were all male (I guess he means they had learned only
the boy verses back when they were children). The 'holly' after which
Hollywood is partially named is really toyon, a local plant.

The lily flower, being a symbol of purity,  is a symbol of the Virgin
Mary as virgin, while the rose is a symbol of her as mother. The lily
flower is also a symbol of Easter. In modern times, lilies have also
become a symbol of funerals. Am I the only weird person who ever thinks
of Potter's Field (traditional name of the municipal graveyard of
unclaimed bodies) in connection with the name Potter?

A little less than twenty years ago, it was all over the media that
chocolate contains an amphetamine-like chemical which is also found in
the brains of people in love. I've been trying all 'night' (a sleep
period from 4AM when I finished with the e-mail last night to 11AM when
I awoke) to remember the name of that chemical, and finally succeeded.
Phenylethylalanine. So I web-searched on it, and the very first hit was
a page on foods reputed to be
aphrodisiacs:http://www.dummies.com/tips/nutrition/sex.html

but that page says that oysters, mushrooms, and truffles originally got
that reputation from looking like female sex organs -- I have always
believed that those foodstuffs were supposed to resemble MALE sex organs
(e.g. oysters and 'prairie oysters'). I always BELIEVE that the word
'truffle' SHOULD be related to 'trove', because it is a treasured fungus
that must be *found*, but dictionaries always say it comes from a Latin
word for swelling, same root as 'tumescent': "Etymology: modification of
Middle French truffe, from Old Provenal trufa, from (assumed) Vulgar
Latin tufera; akin to Latin tuber swelling, truffle" (from
Merriam-Webster on-line, www.m-w.com/home.htm)

The truffle-hunter's trained pig or dog finds truffles by their smell,
which is supposed to co-incidentally contain some sex pheromones.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From particle at urbanet.ch  Sat Sep 30 20:55:09 2000
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:55:09 +0200
Subject: Exam Questions [OT]
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMECHCJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <005301c02b20$b8969cc0$c4e8cac3@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 2580

> This reminds me of a Philosophy Finals Examination question that I have
> heard of. The question was 'What is confidence?' and the top mark went to
> the student who gave the answer 'This is.'.

I once heard a story about a physics or chemistry (at least, I think it was
one of those) final exam that asked the exam-taker to explain whether Hell
is exothermic or endothermic, and why. The exam-taker in question said that
if it was endothermic, Hell would eventually freeze over, and if it was
exothermic, all Hell would break loose. He then went on to say that it was
exothermic, and one piece of evidence he cited was that his love interest of
a few years before had said that she'd go out with him when Hell froze over.
Since absolutely no progress had been made with her, Hell had to be
exothermic.

While we're at it, there was this story at my brother's high school (not
mine; we moved before I left middle school) about this kid who'd gone
overtime on his SATs. When he handed it in to the supervisor, the latter
said, 'Congratulations, you've failed the SAT.' So the student said, 'Do you
know who I am?' The supervisor answered, 'No.' 'Good,' the student replied.
Then, covering up his name on his answer form, he slid it at random into the
stack of forms on the supervisor's desk, and left.

BTW, Simon, I'm writing up a page of interesting/funny quotes and anecdotes
for my school newspaper - can I mention that Philosophy Finals question?
Please?

~Firebolt




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 30 21:07:28 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:07:28 -0000
Subject: Voldy, the family man
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000929124055.9AC.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8r5kmg+mok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2581

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
Kelley  wrote:
> > I would have no idea if Vold would be capable 
> >of fathering children after all those changes.  Maybe. 

Christina wrote: 
> I doubt it. There's nothing human left in him.

Kelley:  Exactly what I was thinking.

Christina:
> What I meant was that
> even before he completely shed his Tom-Riddle-persona he was a man
> with a mission who didn't just idle around after school trying to
> sort out what he was going to do with his life, sowing his wild oats
> without consideration. 

Kelley:
I don't know about 'sowing wild oats', but I totally agree about him 
being a 'man with a mission'.  I was sort of thinking of a one-time 
thing, or maybe a female DE wanted to produce a child for him.  Or 
wanted to have his child and he didn't know about it...  

Christina:
> Wanting to be the Number One and Only sounds very much like
> Voldemort. That's why I think he would be careful not to father a
> rival.

Kelley:
Yes, this makes just as much sense to me as Vold wanting a child to 
carry on for him.
   
> That's what makes the series so great. :-)--------- Absolutely!

--Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 30 21:08:28 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:08:28 -0000
Subject: Voldy, the family man
In-Reply-To: <Q.20000929124055.9AC.2.DAD@mail.rlz.inka.de>
Message-ID: <8r5koc+4ulm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2582

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, Christina Gross <Changeling at d...> 
wrote:
Kelley  wrote:
> > I would have no idea if Vold would be capable 
> >of fathering children after all those changes.  Maybe. 

Christina wrote: 
> I doubt it. There's nothing human left in him.

Kelley:  Exactly what I was thinking.

Christina:
> What I meant was that
> even before he completely shed his Tom-Riddle-persona he was a man
> with a mission who didn't just idle around after school trying to
> sort out what he was going to do with his life, sowing his wild oats
> without consideration. 

Kelley:
I don't know about 'sowing wild oats', but I totally agree about him 
being a 'man with a mission'.  I was sort of thinking of a one-time 
thing, or maybe a female DE wanted to produce a child for him.  Or 
wanted to have his child and he didn't know about it...  

Christina:
> Wanting to be the Number One and Only sounds very much like
> Voldemort. That's why I think he would be careful not to father a
> rival.

Kelley:
Yes, this makes just as much sense to me as Vold wanting a child to 
carry on for him.
   
> That's what makes the series so great. :-)--------- Absolutely!

--Kelley




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 30 21:18:49 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:18:49 -0000
Subject: Voldy, the family man
In-Reply-To: <OE55t3hqAdeibzMx62P00001407@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <8r5lbp+o9qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2583

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "storm stanford" <msmacgoo at h...> 
wrote:
>   I agree with Kelly - I don't think that Voldemort has any 
intention of NOT ensuring his own imortality - a child would just be 
competition (thought possbly useful for spare parts)
> 
>   storm

LOL!  Thanks storm, that was hilarious.  I love this list, everyone's 
so smart and funny...
If Vold becomes immortal, he won't need a child for that, right?  
And, if Draco's parents see him as a possession, or a lump of clay, 
imagine how Vold would view his own child... talk about scary.

Kelley





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Sep 30 21:21:46 2000
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:21:46 -0000
Subject: Oops!
Message-ID: <8r5lha+j1p8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2584

Sorry for that double post, guys.  I thought it told me it didn't 
send the first time.

Kelley




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Sep 30 21:30:43 2000
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:30:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?
References: <8qmmc9+i7da@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001001c02b25$b0f7fb80$1cc44b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 2585


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gen " <gchua at spicerspaperasia.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 12:04 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should Harry Potter die?


>
> Susan wrote

> Someone mentioned the possibility of Dumbledore being killed off. Oh
> dear, I certainly do hope not.

My guess is that this will happen, but not until late in Book Seven, with
Dumbledore's death  connected to Voldy's final send-off.

    - CMC




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 30 22:26:19 2000
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise Rogers)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:26:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: Snape the poet (was: logic puzzles...)
References: <F239NhXWitnXeRgSrIy00004224@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701c02b2d$84ac9740$f4cdd2cc@neo.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2586

How about this idealogy, then?  Because, cough, Sirius was always breaking
the rules, he went over to the darkside, and killed the other man who broke
the rules...both ending in bad situations.

IMHO it's clear that Snape wants two things: fame, and recognition of
his alliance to the Bright.  What does he rag on Harry about?  His
undeserved celebrity and his penchant for rule-breaking. The first
is because Snape wants some of that glory for himself (and perhaps
JKR will show us later that some of it truly does belong to him)
and the second is (a bit of a stretch perhaps) that Snape hates
the Dark side intensely and associates rule-breaking with the kind
of casual carelessness that can give the Dark an opening.


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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 30 22:31:23 2000
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milz )
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:31:23 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville
In-Reply-To: <id.30092000100415.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <8r5pjr+bihu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 2587

I think Neville has been under-used as a character. In book 1, he 
single-handedly took on Crabbe and Goyle during the Quidditch Match. 
Granted he was knocked unconscious, the main thing was is that he
took 
on two bigger kids. That takes either courage or foolhardiness or 
both.

As for Snape disliking Neville, I'm beginning to suspect Snape 
dislikes any student whose family was on the Ministry's side during 
the V. years such as Ron, Harry, and Neville. I'm sure if Neville's 
gran ever got a hold of Snape she'd whack him with that big red 
handbag of hers.
 
--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> I love Neville.  He's my favorite character.  And while I don't 
think he'll become THE hero, I've a pretty strong feeling that he
will 
be A hero, as soon as he starts liking and having cnfidence in 
himself.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> I've been thinking about Neville and the role he will play.
> 
> Will he die? Will he betray Harry? Will he become the
> unexpected hero?