H/H and why it's just wrong

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 2262

Hi --

Well anyone could have guessed that I'd have to reply to this .  . . <g>

First, let me say that I in general agree with Voicelady.  These
characters are teenagers, and even if you buy the assumption that
wizards & witches marry early in life (and I don't necessarily buy this
theory), they are still young teenagers at this point.  I don't
necessarily think they'll find their lifelong partners at Hogwarts.  I
*do* think that their lifelong partners could be people they know at
Hogwarts (especially if Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in Britain
& it's a relatively small population, etc.).  But, Hogwarts probably
isn't the right *time* for pairing up permanently.  Everyone (even
witches & wizards I should imagine) needs to experience life a little
before they can recognize the "right" one.

Okay so on to Kathy's points --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> First off, let me say that I am definitely an H/R shipper although I
> do enjoy well-written H/H.  The thing that really really annoys me
> though is that most people who write H/H fiction seem completely
> unwilling to deal with the Ron issue at all.

I agree with this!  Before we started ASA, I was tossing around some
ideas with Carole for a H/H post-Hogwarts fanfic where Ron does not
die.  We eventually settled on the ASA idea, but I still think it's
quite possible to come up with a believable plot that involves an adult
H & H romance, even if Ron is alive & not evil.  PoU does set up that
possibility too.  Hermione tells Harry that she doesn't believe her
romance with Ron would have survived long once they entered the adult
world.  So . . . I think it *can* be done.

> The fact of the matter is, the obvious romantic tension in the
> canon is between Hermione and Ron.  Several people, particularly
> Penny, have made very good cases for the subtext suggesting that
> Hermione may have feelings for Harry.  Okay, that I can buy.  BUT,
> there is absolutely no evidence that Harry may have feelings for
> Hermione.

I agree that Harry has no evident romantic interest in Hermione.  As far
as the *canon* is concerned, I subscribe most fully to the Farmer in the
Dell Theory.  Even as strongly H/H as I am, there ain't one shred
o'evidence that Harry has any romantic feelings for Hermione in the
canon -- *at this point.*  But, the "obvious" romantic tension between
Ron & Hermione is, IMO, pretty one-sided from what we know at this
point.

> After all, he even says something like "He liked Hermione very much,
> but she just wasn't Ron."

I think you're ignoring the context of this remark.  He wants a male
companion when he makes this remark; he wants someone to hang out with
who understands Quidditch terminology and horses around rather than
doing their homework.  Hermione is a great friend to him at that stage,
but she can't replace Ron's male companionship for Harry.  He's a 14-yr
old boy who misses his male best friend; he's not writing off a future
romantic partner in Hermione.

> AND think about the two major fights we have seen among the Trio; in
> Book 4, when Harry and Ron are fighting, we KNOW that Harry misses
> Ron.  Their argument is at the forefront of everything that happens.
> In Book 3, when Ron and Harry stop speaking to Hermione for what, 4
> months?, Hermione just kind of fades into the background.  You don't
> get the feeling that Harry is all that bothered by not being on
> speaking terms with Hermione.  Ron may be a different story, but we
> don't know that.  And Hermione is clearly upset that they are not
> speaking to her.

See PoA (US Edition) -- pages 250-251 -- Harry is talking to Hermione
quietly while Ron takes the newly-returned Firebolt up to their dorm
room.  He's clearly concerned that she's overworking herself.  My
impression was that Harry was initially angry at Hermione for telling
McGonagall about the Firebolt, but didn't hold any lasting grudge.  I
rather think he was guilty of inaction more than anything else -- he was
probably willing to make up with Hermione weeks ago but Ron was holding
the grudge and Harry's a 13-yr old boy and he just went along without
giving it much thought.  But, at this point in the narrative, he seems
very ready to make up, but then there was the Scabbers incident.

Then see pages 264-265 of PoA.  It's Harry who breaks away from the
crowd to seek out Hermione.  He clearly wants her to join in and he's
wondering if *Ron* is in a good enough mood to bury the hatchet (this
suggests that it isn't Harry who has any problems with Hermione at all
at this point & that he wants their friendship back).  After Hermione
leaves the room in tears, Harry says "Can't you give her a break?"  This
does *not* sound like someone who's unconcerned about his friendship
with Hermione.  I strongly disagree with your assertion that he's
ambivalent about whether Hermione makes it up with he and Ron.  I think
he cares very much.

And, surely by now (end of GoF), he must realize somewhere within him
that Hermione has been the most steadfastly loyal of all his friends.
She's also displayed her loyalty & friendship with Harry most recently.

> The point of this seemingly off-topic ramble is that Harry cares more
> about Ron than he does about Hermione.  (After all, Ron was "the thing
> he would miss the most")  I am not suggesting any sort of homosexual
> pairing here (though who knows?  that really would be unexpected for
> JKR!)  but what I am saying is that so many people who seem determined
> to match up Harry and Hermione are ignoring something fundamental
> about Harry.  Regardless of whether or not he had any feelings for
> Hermione (and the signs indicate he does not), Harry would simply NOT
> go after her knowing that Ron liked her (and the scene after the Yule
> Ball made it pretty clear that Harry is aware of Ron's feelings even
> if Ron is not).   Ron's friendship is simply too important to him.

Well . . . couple of points here.

1.  Ron being the thing he would miss most: (a) Harry doesn't have a
romantic interest (like Fleur) at that point, other than an awkward
crush on Cho; (b) it served the plot well for Harry's 2 best friends to
be at the bottom of the lake (so that there would be that conflict & so
that all 3 main characters would be in the action); and (c) even if
Dumbledore or the judges (or whoever made the call) decided that
Hermione was the person Harry would miss the most, she was also that
person for Krum.  She couldn't very well have served as the hostage for
2 of the 4 champions.  Maybe the decision was: well, Krum's hostage must
be Hermione and Ron and Hermione are equally important to Harry so
Hermione can be Krum's hostage & Ron can be Harry's.

2.  Homosexual pairing -- well, that'll be hard to sell since both Harry
& Ron have evidenced reasonably strong heterosexual tendencies by now.

3.  I agree that Harry won't "go after" Hermione, knowing that Ron has
his heart set on her.  PoU includes a good take on this conflict for
Harry.  But, there are a number of different ways that this could come
about.  Ron & Hermione might date and break up.  Hermione might refuse
to date Ron (whether because she has her heart set on Harry or because
she has no attraction to Ron) and Ron could simply move on with his
life, remaining friends with Hermione.

All in all though, I don't see much likelihood that Harry will date
Hermione in the canon.  But, just because he doesn't have any romantic
interest in her while he's a teenager doesn't mean he never will.  It
happens *all* the time in real-life.  He's only just begun to notice
girls at all.  He's hardly had time to develop the maturity required to
realize that a life-long partner needs to be more than just a pretty
face.  Once he does acquire that maturity level, he might very well look
at Hermione in a much different light.

> And the other thing is: Hermione KNOWS this.  So even if she did have
> feelings for Harry, she would know better than to ever let them show,
> because she is smart enough to realize how important Ron's friendship
> is to Harry.

I don't understand your point here.  Are you saying if Hermione was
"stupid" enough to show her feelings for Harry, she'd lose his
friendship?  That's a bit strong.  Then again, I don't believe your
theory that Harry values his friendship with Ron more than his
friendship with Hermione.

> And, too, aside from the fact that I think there is ample evidence
> that Hermione does indeed have feelings for Ron, I don't think she
> would do that to him either.  Even if she didn't LOVE him, he's still
> her friend and she would realize how much her dating Harry would
> affect him.  She's too compassionate not to realize that. And I think
> that her comments to Harry when he and Ron were fighting show that she
> has thought about Ron's feelings quite a bit.

Haven't you ever heard "All's fair in love & war"?  Seriously . . . .
denying one's romantic feelings for some higher purpose makes for good
fiction sometimes, but it's pretty darn hard to do in real-life.  JKR
has shown a fairly strong interest in keeping things of this nature
"true to life."  And, in real life, these types of jealousies & romantic
entanglements occur with some regularity.

> That's the thing that annoys me: if I read one more H/H fanfic where
> Ron says some variation of "I knew you guys always liked each other,
> I'm so happy for you, I'm glad I got over that little crush in our
> fourth year", I am going to scream!  We all know that even if Ron did
> get over his crush, he would still be jealous of anyone else who went
> out with Hermione.

Why???????  Are you jealous of the current dating
partner/spouse/romantic interest of every person you've ever had a crush
on or dated?  People do get over lost loves.  They don't always retain
the friendship with that person, but when they do retain the friendship,
it's generally because they're able to put their past romantic interest
& subsequent break-up, problems, jealousies, etc. aside.

I'm very happy for some of my former romantic interests . . . . and
there's not even a hint of jealous feeling on my part when I see them
happy with another person.

> And even if he and Hermione dated and then broke up, I don't see him
> being the kind of guy who would let go really easily.

What if *Ron* was the one who did the breaking off?

> I think that PoU is one of the very few H/H romances I have read that
> even deals with Ron's feelings at all, and I think the way Lori
> handles it is very plausible.  Even if Ron did die, it would still
> take both Harry and Hermione, but especially Harry, a long time to
> deal with that baggage.

I agree . . . *if* Hermione & Ron do date & then break up (or if he
dies), it would take awhile for both Harry & Hermione to get over it.
If they don't date in the canon, I don't imagine it will be because Ron
is pining away over Hermione so . . . there wouldn't be any baggage
necessarily under all scenarios.

> Anyway, enough ranting for now.  I am just tired of Ron getting
> shunted aside.

I do think it could be an interesting challenge for a fanfic writer to
come up with a storyline that does appropriately handle Ron's feelings
and leaves him alive.

But, don't forget, I have lots of arguments why I think Ron would be
most "shunted aside" if he did date Hermione.  I think he'd tire pretty
darn quickly of being in her shadow.  I think he should be given the
chance to shine, particularly in his romantic relationship.  I just
don't see that happening with Hermione though.  She's just not the type
to step back into the background.  I completely agree 100% with
Cassandra's post on this particular topic.

BTW, I can't help but wonder why people who are anti H/H always say that
H/H is just "wrong."  That turn of a phrase is used pretty repeatedly by
the anti-H/H types, and it always raises weird connotations in my mind
(like there's some sort of *taboo* against H/H).

Penny
(who's spent entirely too much time with this!)



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