From williamhause2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 00:23:24 2001
From: williamhause2000 at yahoo.com (williamhause2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 00:23:24 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV?
In-Reply-To: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a5sds+14qo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15679

I think you are correct that the POV argument is bogus.  If the story 
was told from Harry's POV then Harry would be in every scene.  E.g. 
is the first chapter of GOF told from Harry's POV?  Obviously not as 
he is unaware of what took place there.

-Billy

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been reading quite a few posts explaining things (away, 
mostly) 
> on the basis of the Harry's POV premise ("oh, well, the stories are 
> told from Harry's POV, so possibly ... the Slytherins are really 
nice 
> fellas, the basilisk is shorter, the number of tables in at the 
ball 
> is smaller.." etc.) 
> 
> I have a problem with this type of argument, but before going off 
the 
> deep end, I wanted to ask, is there evidence that the stories are 
> *coloured* by Harry's POV? 
> 
> Just to make clear what I mean by "colouring", I'll give an example 
> of how the narrative *could* have been coloured by Harry's POV:
> After Harry learned that Cho was going to the ball with Cedric, he 
> "suddenly realised that Cedric was in fact a useless pretty-boy who 
> didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup." (347; Brit) If our 
> perception of Cedric was coloured by Harry's perception of him, we 
> would at this point have had a bad opinion of him, only finding out 
> later (with Harry) that he is really an exceptionally decent guy. 
> But that is not the case. The way we are told of Harry's view of 
> Cedric makes it very clear that it *is* Harry's point of view (and 
> that it's the outcome of jealousy, not clear judgement), so it 
> doesn't colour *our* perception of Cedric as a decent guy. 
> 
> So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I 
couldn't 
> think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can come 
up 
> with examples?
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Naama




From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Apr  1 00:42:15 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:42:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
Message-ID: <00d801c0ba44$9968d260$f13eabac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15680

Billy wrote:

<<If the story 
was told from Harry's POV then Harry would be in every scene.  E.g. 
is the first chapter of GOF told from Harry's POV?  Obviously not as 
he is unaware of what took place there>>

Well, chapter one in both S/PS and GoF are framing chapters, setting up the rest of the book. But, the difference is that GoF's was also Harry's dream. He wasn't there, but I thought it was rather clear that the vivid dream that woke him suddenly was the scene with Frank, showing Harry and Voldemort's connection. 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 00:44:48 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 00:44:48 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV?
In-Reply-To: <9a5sds+14qo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a5tm0+f00i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15681

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., williamhause2000 at y... wrote:
> I think you are correct that the POV argument is bogus.  If the 
story 
> was told from Harry's POV then Harry would be in every scene.  E.g. 
> is the first chapter of GOF told from Harry's POV?  Obviously not 
as 
> he is unaware of what took place there.
> 

Yes, but that is covered under the POV argument....that the first 
chapters of GoF and P/SS are under third person omnescient rather 
than third person limited. For all the rest of the series, Harry is 
in every scene. In fact, that contributes to the POV argument, 
because this change in perspective is so noticable. 

Anyway, I think the POV argument can be sometimes a bit stretched, 
but in general it explains some things well enough for it not to be 
"bogus." 


 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I've been reading quite a few posts explaining things (away, 
> mostly) 
> > on the basis of the Harry's POV premise ("oh, well, the stories 
are 
> > told from Harry's POV, so possibly ... the Slytherins are really 
> nice 
> > fellas, the basilisk is shorter, the number of tables in at the 
> ball 
> > is smaller.." etc.) \

What do you mean "explaining away?" The idea that the # of tables is 
smaller and that the basilisk is shorter are really about 
eggageration in the narrative voice, which is not explicitly POV, but 
style. 

As for the Slytherin arguement, that just argues that there may be 
Slytherins who aren't jerks, but that they don't appear in the story. 

> > Just to make clear what I mean by "colouring", I'll give an 
example 
> > of how the narrative *could* have been coloured by Harry's POV:
> > After Harry learned that Cho was going to the ball with Cedric, 
he 
> > "suddenly realised that Cedric was in fact a useless pretty-boy 
who 
> > didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup." (347; Brit) If our 
> > perception of Cedric was coloured by Harry's perception of him, 
we 
> > would at this point have had a bad opinion of him, only finding 
out 
> > later (with Harry) that he is really an exceptionally decent guy. 
> > But that is not the case. The way we are told of Harry's view of 
> > Cedric makes it very clear that it *is* Harry's point of view 
(and 
> > that it's the outcome of jealousy, not clear judgement), so it 
> > doesn't colour *our* perception of Cedric as a decent guy. 
> > 
> > So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I 
> couldn't 
> > think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can come 
> up 
> > with examples?

Not coloring explicitly, but the way I see it is that we are always 
basing things on Harry's assumptions, and what he happens to notice. 
Sometimes these assumptions are clearly false, or can be seen 
through, as in your example. Sometimes Harry just doesn't have enough 
information, and we are misled. (you know, all those nice surprises 
at the end of the books.)

Charmian




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr  1 01:01:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 02:01:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
References: <9a5sds+14qo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006801c0ba47$69ac0760$bc3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15682

Billy said:

<<I think you are correct that the POV argument is bogus.  If the story  was
told from Harry's POV then Harry would be in every scene.  E.g. is the first
chapter of GOF told from Harry's POV?  Obviously not as he is unaware of
what took place there.>>

I think we've established that the first chapters of PS and GoF are
exceptions and that the first chapter of GoF could, arguably, have been a
dream sequence in Harry's head.  Harry is clearly the focal point of all the
other chapters.

Going back to Naama's point about colouring, a while back we discussed
examples of overheard discussions that would at least not be coloured by
being reactive to or in direct reference to Harry.  These include the scenes
where Harry, unseen, overhears conversations between other characters and
the one scene where he is disguised by the Polyjuice Potion and talking to
Draco.  It seems that Harry is being shielded from some information, so what
we learn from these eavesdroppings is usually important. Often, Harry gets
to hear what people really think of him rather than what they would want him
to hear, and JKR may have introduced the invisibility cloak in particular to
allow us to hear exchanges and facts that we couldn't possibly hear in third
person limited.

I have a feeling that we will see more scenes without Harry in them in the
next three books.   I think several characters have been developed/prepared
sufficiently to take on primary POV (i.e. perspective) status, particularly
Hagrid and Snape, and it would be a shame if that isn't utilised.  I don't
think we'll ever see things from Hermione's or Ron's POV though. <g>

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sun Apr  1 02:23:59 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:23:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <20010401022359.3E2052742@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15683

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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sun Apr  1 02:44:40 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:44:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The snake Harry set free.....
Message-ID: <20010401024441.01A1B36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15684

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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sun Apr  1 03:16:28 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:16:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
Message-ID: <20010401031628.34E092753@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15685

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From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr  1 03:26:39 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:26:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
References: <9a5dkh+2c8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC69FEF.3B974283@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15686

Kelley wrote:

> > I have a problem with this type of argument, but before going off
> the deep end, I wanted to ask, is there evidence that the stories are
> *coloured* by Harry's POV?
> > <snip>
>
> > So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I
> couldn't think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can
> come up with examples?
> >
> > Naama
>
> I love where you're going with this, Naama, as this has never sat well
> with me, either.  Like Magda, Snape is the best I can come up with,
> and this doesn't really seem to fit your criteria of 'colouring' on
> Harry's part.  We're mislead in book 1, thinking that Snape is the
> 'bad guy' when it turns out to be Quirrell, though, at least thus far,
> Harry's belief that Snape hates him does seem to be correct.

<snip>

> As far as quantifying descriptions go, the "Harry's POV" argument
> holds no weight with me.  I have always taken any information we
> receive in this manner as straight from JKR,
> without any colouring or exaggeration from Harry.

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you have in mind, Naama et
al., but here's my take. I don't think you will be able to "prove"
coloring by Harry's viewpoint, simply because JKR doesn't step out of
his "eyes" much for any objective measure, at least of the things
Harry's seeing. The only time she's altered that were scenes where we as
readers needed information that Harry would not know or could not
supply.

I think Harry's interpretation of what he's experiencing *must* affect
how we interpret it. I think it's supposed to; we're learning about the
wizarding world and his past along with him. And one person's
interpretation can be valid, but still wrong or incomplete. For
example--totally off-topic--my husband. After we were married, he (whose
house had always been spotless) suddenly ceased doing anything around
the house. This was very irritating to me, to say the least, because I
resented him suddenly dumping it all on me and expecting me to take care
of everything.

Turns out, his father was a career Marine, who was gone for long periods
of time (WWII, Korea, Vietnam), and who, when he came home, had the
sense not to mess with the status quo of his wife's running everything.
And besides the fact that he didn't want to sail in, pat her on the
head, and do the "I'll take it from here, honey" dismissal number on
her, my husband's father considered the home and its decisions and
running to be the rightful domain of the woman of the house. My husband
had yielded control of his household to me out of respect and in
recognition of my status as his wife; he was taken aback that I had seen
it as him dodging his responsibilities. [We've since established a happy
medium.]

The point here is that Harry's interpretations of what he perceives may
be valid, and still not correct (or not entirely correct). It has been
demonstrated to us as readers many times, that things, connections, and
knowledge which are common as dirt to "native" wizards are often totally
missed by Harry. There's a big window for "coloring" right there, but it
will be invisible to us as readers until a character corrects Harry,
updating his point of view.

Knowing me, I thought of Snape's character, which is probably very
colored by Harry's viewpoint. I don't think there's any argument that
Snape hates Harry. But as I've pointed out before, if you ignore the
manner in which Snape does things, much of the actual actions he takes
are protective of Harry. His actions in many instances can be
interpreted as rising from several motivations, but Harry sees only one,
considers only one--Snape hates him and would love to get him in
trouble. Here's a situation where Harry's point of view and
interpretation are necessarily limited--Snape's not into explaining his
actions, and we don't know anything about Snape that Harry doesn't. So
clearly our view of Snape is colored by Harry's view.

I'm sort of rambling, I hope that made some kind of sense.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 04:00:30 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:00:30 -0500
Subject: Funniest stuff
Message-ID: <F266ZPAvw3WLmcwuqvI0000633b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15687



>
>Funniest scene in the entire series so far: Mr. Weasley trying to
>connect with Uncle Vernon after crashing through the fireplace at the
>Dursley's: "I collect plugs.  And batteries.  My wife thinks I'm mad
>but there you are."
>

My favorite scene from the books so far was in the first book during 
Christmas.  Percy, Fred and George came into Ron and Harry's room just after 
they had all gotten their sweaters.  The image of Percy jammed into his 
sweater with the arms flailing out, being frog-marched down to breakfast was 
a wonderful visual.

What was everyone's favorite scene?
(apologies if this has been run through before - giving us newbies a chance 
to throw our own 2 cents in *smiles* )
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  1 04:15:56 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:15:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do we explain Moody's actions knowing he is actuall Crouch?
In-Reply-To: <20010331180304.87478.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9a53jk+32s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010331201036.033c3140@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15688

At 10:03 AM 3/31/01 -0800, Magda Grantwich wrote:
>My immediate impression is that this book is a little more ragged
>than the first three; might be the length as she had to cram so much
>backstory into it.

And she was fighting the clock.  I think that's why she's said not
to expect the next book until next year... She wants to do a
meticulous, boo-boo-free job this time.

>Funniest scene in the entire series so far: Mr. Weasley trying to
>connect with Uncle Vernon after crashing through the fireplace at the
>Dursley's: "I collect plugs.  And batteries.  My wife thinks I'm mad
>but there you are."

This is my favorite means so far by which Harry escapes the
Dursleys.  The only thing I think that could top it is if Mad-Eye
shows up at Privet Drive at the start of Book 5!

This is also one reason why I think John Alderton (if he's still
acting) should play Arthur, even if his wife Pauline Collins
won't be Molly.  I can just hear him saying, "My wife thinks
I'm mad, but there you are."



                                                 -- Dave




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 04:29:05 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:29:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Funniest stuff
References: <F266ZPAvw3WLmcwuqvI0000633b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501c0ba64$4c4d3c80$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15689

Nothing will ever replace the laughter that I had when I read all the
envelopes that came down out through the fireplace!  I still laugh when I
read that.  It's my all-time favorite scene in all 4 books....

:D
            ~Dee~
**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "crystal white" <jellycrys at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Funniest stuff


>
>
> >
> >Funniest scene in the entire series so far: Mr. Weasley trying to
> >connect with Uncle Vernon after crashing through the fireplace at the
> >Dursley's: "I collect plugs.  And batteries.  My wife thinks I'm mad
> >but there you are."
> >
>
> My favorite scene from the books so far was in the first book during
> Christmas.  Percy, Fred and George came into Ron and Harry's room just
after
> they had all gotten their sweaters.  The image of Percy jammed into his
> sweater with the arms flailing out, being frog-marched down to breakfast
was
> a wonderful visual.
>
> What was everyone's favorite scene?
> (apologies if this has been run through before - giving us newbies a
chance
> to throw our own 2 cents in *smiles* )
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 04:53:58 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:53:58 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Funniest stuff
Message-ID: <50.13964dcc.27f80e66@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15690

It's not a funny scene, but my favorite scene is when Hagrid gives Harry the 
album with pictures of Lily and James.. It's made me cry every time I've read 
it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.to  Sun Apr  1 05:00:59 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 00:00:59 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
Message-ID: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 15691

Dear Listmembers,

I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. As Penny,
the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-natal
breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this information to
the group.

Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of Warner Bros.,
who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and several
other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, ParadigmOfUncertainty,
HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe Warner's
copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this and have
served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 midnight
Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all its
HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from Yahoo
services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.

The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few options. If you
have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send them to our
address at HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com (which will only be working
for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at walton.to) as a
contact.

Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 2001.

Sincerely,

--John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team

> From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> To: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: [deleted]
> Subject: Deletion of your group
> 
> Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> 
> we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your HPforGrownups
> group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry Potter", and
> has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. Yahoo! is bound
> by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove all such
> content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group will be
> deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> 
> thank you for using YahooGroups!
> 
> Sheena G.
> Technical Executive
> Yahoo!, Inc.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr  1 04:44:41 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 22:44:41 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Questions to the Moderators
Message-ID: <3AC6B239.CA793183@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15692

Hi everyone --

I wanted to remind everyone that I will not be checking email all that
frequently for the next few months -- or at least I won't be checking it
several times a day like I do now.  My baby could arrive any day now.

I'm still getting the occasional question about the group directed to me
personally rather than to the Moderators as a group.  The home page has
the email that should be used if you have a question for the Moderators
(me, Jim Flanagan, John Walton & Neil Ward).

HPforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Jim, John or Neil will be the ones most likely replying to specific
questions that you may have.  You can feel free to email me personally,
but I don't recommend this if you need a quick response.  :--)

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 05:19:05 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:19:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Questions to the Moderators
References: <3AC6B239.CA793183@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <007501c0ba6b$53086520$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15693

Penny, I know this is OT, but for ALL the folks on all lists----WHAT'S YOUR
DUE DATE AGAIN?


:)
            ~Dee~
**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 11:44 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Questions to the Moderators


> Hi everyone --
>
> I wanted to remind everyone that I will not be checking email all that
> frequently for the next few months -- or at least I won't be checking it
> several times a day like I do now.  My baby could arrive any day now.
>
> I'm still getting the occasional question about the group directed to me
> personally rather than to the Moderators as a group.  The home page has
> the email that should be used if you have a question for the Moderators
> (me, Jim Flanagan, John Walton & Neil Ward).
>
> HPforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com
>
> Jim, John or Neil will be the ones most likely replying to specific
> questions that you may have.  You can feel free to email me personally,
> but I don't recommend this if you need a quick response.  :--)
>
> Thanks --
>
> Penny
> The Moderator Team
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 05:22:28 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:22:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <008301c0ba6b$cde6dce0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15694

John,

Why haven't the other lists received notification?  (Aka Chatscripts, Food,
etc...)  As owner of those I would have gotten the notice immediately.

They're slacking, eh.

What a stinging blow!


            ~Dee~
**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walton" <john at walton.to>
To: <Hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com>; <hpfgu-announcements at yahoogroups.com>;
<hpfgu-otchatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down


> Dear Listmembers,
>
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. As
Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this information
to
> the group.
>
> Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of Warner
Bros.,
> who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and several
> other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe
Warner's
> copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this and
have
> served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 midnight
> Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all its
> HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from Yahoo
> services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
>
> The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few options. If
you
> have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send them to
our
> address at HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com (which will only be working
> for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at walton.to) as a
> contact.
>
> Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 2001.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
>
> > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > To: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: [deleted]
> > Subject: Deletion of your group
> >
> > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> >
> > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your
HPforGrownups
> > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry Potter",
and
> > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. Yahoo! is
bound
> > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove all such
> > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group will be
> > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> >
> > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> >
> > Sheena G.
> > Technical Executive
> > Yahoo!, Inc.
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 05:30:49 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 05:30:49 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9a6ee9+7ip8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15695

Umm, is this a joke?  I know it's April's fool but still YOU CAN 
CAUSE HEART ATTACK by sending messages like this.
Anyway, HAHAHAHAHA.  It did look pretty authentic at first glance.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Dear Listmembers,
> 
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. 
As Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-
natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this 
information to
> the group.
> 
> Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of 
Warner Bros.,
> who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and 
several
> other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, 
ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe 
Warner's
> copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this 
and have
> served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 
midnight
> Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all 
its
> HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from 
Yahoo
> services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
> 
> The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few 
options. If you
> have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send 
them to our
> address at HPforGrownups-Owner at y... (which will only be working
> for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at w...) as a
> contact.
> 
> Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 
2001.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
> 
> > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > To: HPforGrownups-owner at y...
> > Cc: [deleted]
> > Subject: Deletion of your group
> > 
> > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> > 
> > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your 
HPforGrownups
> > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry 
Potter", and
> > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. 
Yahoo! is bound
> > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove 
all such
> > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group 
will be
> > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> > 
> > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> > 
> > Sheena G.
> > Technical Executive
> > Yahoo!, Inc.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 05:35:56 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:35:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <9a6ee9+7ip8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c0ba6d$a0ad7de0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15696

My G~wd, I certainly hope this is a Fool's joke.

I hadn't even thought of it yet, since I haven't gone to bed, and it's not
Apr 1st in all the sections that we as a club service (it's still only 9:35,
iirc, in California).

Crosses fingers.  Thanks MM for giving me hope!

            ~Dee~
**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: <MMMfanfic at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:30 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down


> Umm, is this a joke?  I know it's April's fool but still YOU CAN
> CAUSE HEART ATTACK by sending messages like this.
> Anyway, HAHAHAHAHA.  It did look pretty authentic at first glance.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> > Dear Listmembers,
> >
> > I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me.
> As Penny,
> > the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-
> natal
> > breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this
> information to
> > the group.
> >
> > Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> > cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of
> Warner Bros.,
> > who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and
> several
> > other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction,
> ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> > HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe
> Warner's
> > copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this
> and have
> > served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12
> midnight
> > Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all
> its
> > HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from
> Yahoo
> > services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
> >
> > The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few
> options. If you
> > have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send
> them to our
> > address at HPforGrownups-Owner at y... (which will only be working
> > for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at w...) as a
> > contact.
> >
> > Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> > HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st,
> 2001.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
> >
> > > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > > To: HPforGrownups-owner at y...
> > > Cc: [deleted]
> > > Subject: Deletion of your group
> > >
> > > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> > >
> > > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your
> HPforGrownups
> > > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry
> Potter", and
> > > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner.
> Yahoo! is bound
> > > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove
> all such
> > > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group
> will be
> > > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> > >
> > > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> > >
> > > Sheena G.
> > > Technical Executive
> > > Yahoo!, Inc.
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 05:37:56 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:37:56 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
Message-ID: <87.902be23.27f818b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15697

This IS a joke, right?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Apr  1 05:36:29 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:36:29 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <9a6ee9+7ip8@eGroups.com> <009f01c0ba6d$a0ad7de0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <066c01c0ba6d$b47bfcc0$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15698

OMG, please let this be a joke....or not considering I feel like a complete and utter ass if it were so.
~~~~~
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition. 
Where there's a will, I want to be in it. 
OK, who stopped payment on my reality check? 
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. 
Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. 
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sun Apr  1 05:43:32 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:43:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <000401c0ba6e$b0c45680$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15699

Here's hoping that this is an April Fool's Day prank...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Last Movie Seen:  "The Mexican" - 4 out of 5 stars
Current Book:  "From the Corner of his Eye" by Dean Koontz
------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walton" <john at walton.to>
To: <Hpforgrownups at yahoogroups.com>; <hpfgu-announcements at yahoogroups.com>;
<hpfgu-otchatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down


> Dear Listmembers,
>
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. As
Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this information
to
> the group.
>
> Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of Warner
Bros.,
> who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and several
> other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe
Warner's
> copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this and
have
> served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 midnight
> Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all its
> HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from Yahoo
> services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
>
> The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few options. If
you
> have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send them to
our
> address at HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com (which will only be working
> for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at walton.to) as a
> contact.
>
> Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 2001.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
>
> > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > To: HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: [deleted]
> > Subject: Deletion of your group
> >
> > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> >
> > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your
HPforGrownups
> > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry Potter",
and
> > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. Yahoo! is
bound
> > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove all such
> > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group will be
> > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> >
> > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> >
> > Sheena G.
> > Technical Executive
> > Yahoo!, Inc.
>
>
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Apr  1 05:37:46 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 00:37:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <9a6ee9+7ip8@eGroups.com> <009f01c0ba6d$a0ad7de0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net> <066c01c0ba6d$b47bfcc0$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3AC6BEAA.FFC72B21@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15700

It's a joke. A good one. But a joke...

Jamieson

...who looks up to the sky, says "right?" very quietly, and walks off stage left....

Saitaina wrote:

> OMG, please let this be a joke....or not considering I feel like a complete and utter ass if it were so.
> ~~~~~
> Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
> Where there's a will, I want to be in it.
> OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?
> Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
> Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.
> Consciousness: That annoying time between naps
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From jekkal at juno.com  Sun Apr  1 05:45:59 2001
From: jekkal at juno.com (Rachel)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 05:45:59 -0000
Subject: If it is a joke, great...
Message-ID: <9a6fan+uko6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15701

If it is not a joke, then crap....

I am an online columnist who works on copyright issues, and I was 
informed by a source wishing to remain anonymous of your groups' 
deletion. I do not approve of AOL-Time Warner's actions (they don't 
have a legal leg to stand on), and would like to help you. 

Topica (http://www.topica.com) has a nice mailing list that can be 
used to salvage your group.

Also, please visit PotterWar, at www.potterwar.co.uk, and Defense of 
the Dark Arts, at http://dprophet.com/dada. They are currently 
working on domain issues for HP fans, but I do not think anyone will 
mind championing this cause as well if it is true.

I am currently working with PotterWar, and the group thought that AOL-
TimeWarner was finally backing down... guess not, eh?

Rachel
Who hopes her membership will last longer than 24 hours




From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Apr  1 05:46:18 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:46:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
Message-ID: <010c01c0ba6f$12f5aac0$f13eabac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15702

Dee wrote:

<<I hadn't even thought of it yet, since I haven't gone to bed, and it's not
Apr 1st in all the sections that we as a club service (it's still only 9:35,
iirc, in California).>>

That does make sense. <g> Of course, I've been up since <thinks really hard>, uh, 9 am? Friday, so nothing *really* makes sense, even me. But still. <g>

I think it's time for bed now. ::glares at Bible paper::

Rina
Happily living the life of a college student/procrastinator
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 05:56:36 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:56:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <010c01c0ba6f$12f5aac0$f13eabac@shelley>
Message-ID: <001e01c0ba70$92ff9220$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15703

John,

If this is a joke, let us know soon, ok?  Don't cause Penny to go into labor
early!


            ~Dee~
**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rina Stewart" <rina at love-productions.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down


> Dee wrote:
>
> <<I hadn't even thought of it yet, since I haven't gone to bed, and it's
not
> Apr 1st in all the sections that we as a club service (it's still only
9:35,
> iirc, in California).>>
>
> That does make sense. <g> Of course, I've been up since <thinks really
hard>, uh, 9 am? Friday, so nothing *really* makes sense, even me. But
still. <g>
>
> I think it's time for bed now. ::glares at Bible paper::
>
> Rina
> Happily living the life of a college student/procrastinator
> ********************************
> "Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect
from
> others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who
> doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
> --Gillian Anderson
>
> "Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
> --Eleanor Roosevelt
>
> Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
> Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Apr  1 06:02:10 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:02:10 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <009f01c0ba6d$a0ad7de0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9a6g92+ikpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15704

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> My G~wd, I certainly hope this is a Fool's joke.
> 
> I hadn't even thought of it yet, since I haven't gone to bed, and 
it's not
> Apr 1st in all the sections that we as a club service (it's still 
only 9:35,
> iirc, in California).
> 
> Crosses fingers.  Thanks MM for giving me hope!
> 
>             ~Dee~

HA!  Well, he certainly got me.  I had already gone into 'fight' mode 
and was working on some subversive plans.  This is the first April 
Fool's that anyone's gotten me with in years.  Well done, John!

Kelley--deleting emails-- ;oP




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 06:09:13 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:09:13 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <9a6g92+ikpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a6gm9+9hfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15705

Well, I hope it is a joke...

In two minutes I had already made plans for a  lawsuit (where are the 
lawyers on this list?)

a media campaign....can you imagine what 1100 irate HP grownups could 
do?

a switch to another server...

I panicked...what about my Ron Weasley character sketch?




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sun Apr  1 06:10:17 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:10:17 -0500
Subject: List deletion
Message-ID: <v02140b76b6ec769157eb@[140.254.113.166]>

No: HPFGUIDX 15706


It's a joke.  PoU list is included in their bad-lists and I've received no
such notification from Yahoo!Groups.

Lori
PoU listowner


**************************************************
Lori   "Leroy W. DeShavela"  Summers

       "Go sell crazy somewhere else.  We're all
        stocked up here."       --Melvin Udall

Last movie seen:  "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"
Discman's spinning:  Ramones "Ramones Mania"
Nighttable:  "Dreamcatcher" by Stephen King
***************************************************





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Apr  1 06:08:27 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 22:08:27 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <9a6gm9+9hfr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <06ea01c0ba72$2c4177e0$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15707

I created a whole new list that's now just sitting there empty so I feel completely like an idiot.

~~~~~
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition. 
Where there's a will, I want to be in it. 
OK, who stopped payment on my reality check? 
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. 
Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. 
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jekkal at juno.com  Sun Apr  1 06:19:49 2001
From: jekkal at juno.com (Rachel)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 06:19:49 -0000
Subject: Well... now don't I feel like an idiot...
Message-ID: <9a6ha5+4m5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15708

John, I want my hour of sleep back.

Anyway, if anyone is still interested, I'll toss out those links to 
Potterwar and Defense Against the Dark Arts yet again, who are 
tracking the REAL war against AOL-TimeWarner:

http://www.potterwar.com
http://www.dprophet.com/dada

Now, good night. And no more April Fool's jokes? I got my websites 
deleted on April 1 two years ago by Geo, so I am quite sensitive to 
this sort of thing...

Rachel





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr  1 07:35:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:35:35 -0600
Subject: Voldemort & Wormtail
Message-ID: <002501c0ba7e$5859ce20$0c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15709

Clear Day*****************
I am on my second reading of GoF and when I read this next line, it amused me. I was just wondering if everyone else noticed it when they read GoF.

Voldemort tells Wormtail, "I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform ...." 

Doreen
*****************




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 06:46:47 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:46:47 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort & Wormtail
Message-ID: <a4.1230298c.27f828d7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15710

In a message dated 3/31/01 10:36:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:


> Clear Day*****************
> I am on my second reading of GoF and when I read this next line, it amused 
> me. I was just wondering if everyone else noticed it when they read GoF.
> 
> Voldemort tells Wormtail, "I will allow you to perform an essential task 
> for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to 
> perform ...." 
> 
> Doreen
> *****************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

hehe.. yep, that's cracked me up ever since my second reading


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr  1 07:58:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 01:58:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Funniest stuff
References: <F266ZPAvw3WLmcwuqvI0000633b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301c0ba81$8104d920$0c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15711

>Funniest scene in the entire series so far: Mr. Weasley trying to
>connect with Uncle Vernon after crashing through the fireplace at the
>Dursley's: "I collect plugs.  And batteries.  My wife thinks I'm mad
>but there you are."
>

My favorite scene from the books so far was in the first book during
Christmas.  Percy, Fred and George came into Ron and Harry's room just after
they had all gotten their sweaters.  The image of Percy jammed into his
sweater with the arms flailing out, being frog-marched down to breakfast was
a wonderful visual.
_______________
My favorite scene was when the Weasleys left the Dursleys and F & G were
discussing whether or not Dudley had eaten the toffee... and then when they
told their dad they didnt do it because he was a muggle, but because he was
a great bullying git.
Doreen
_______________

What was everyone's favorite scene?
(apologies if this has been run through before - giving us newbies a chance
to throw our own 2 cents in *smiles* )
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com



_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
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From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 07:36:17 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael_pou at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 07:36:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9a6lph+5kt1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15712

John,

Next time you're planning such an April's fools' joke, share it with 
other lists' moderators. It would've had much more effect if we'd 
have sent similar messages to *all* the lists mentioned in the post.

Signing it 'Sincerely,' was a nice touch :)

yael *wondering if she's too evil*





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  1 08:40:33 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 08:40:33 -0000
Subject: Funniest stuff
In-Reply-To: <50.13964dcc.27f80e66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a6pi1+s5m5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15713

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> It's not a funny scene, but my favorite scene is when Hagrid gives 
Harry the 
> album with pictures of Lily and James.. It's made me cry every time 
I've read 
> it.

My favourite scene isn't funny either.  I am in floods of tears 
everytime I read the scene when Sirius asks Harry to go and live with 
him, and Harry thinks that he doesn't have to go back to the 
Dursleys, and then it all goes horribly wrong...

(Sob, just thinking about it chokes me up!)
Catherine




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Apr  1 08:43:41 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 18:43:41 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
Message-ID: <01C0BADB.B17653E0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15714

John

You are an evil bastard!!! No leather pants for you. I 'got' all the media 
pranks today but this one caught me right off guard! Straight to panic mode 
with no stops anywhere.

Rachael, nice that you have joined us, hope you stay.

And, to Mecki who said 'Forgive my spelling'

Mecki, I'm a native English speaker and, as the *entire* list can attest I do 
not spell as well as you do. <g>

storm





From sinead at bu.edu  Sun Apr  1 09:04:15 2001
From: sinead at bu.edu (Sinead Clements)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 09:04:15 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9a6quf+659d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15715

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Dear Listmembers,
> 
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with 
me. As Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer 
(pre-natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this 
information to
> the group.

Um... poorly timed... as Penny posted 5 seconds after you.... 

I *know* this is a joke! 

Sinead




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 09:14:11 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 09:14:11 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <20010331091012.B6DB836FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9a6rh3+golg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15716

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> This is sort of along to the same theory...
> Would it be possible that Snape's task is to go and impersonate a 
Dementor, using Polyjuice potion?(if they have hair, lol) If so, I 
think that would make sense. There are tons of them so it's easy to 
fit in, and would be hard to test each and every one of them for 
polyjuice. 
> Just a thought...
> ~Echo

That's an original idea -- never thought of that one.
I always wonder what Dumbledore is going to do with the Dementors 
situation.
But can Dementor be classified as 'human'?  What if you can't change 
back (like Hermione in CoS)?  I do hope the Potions Master checked 
that one first.
> _____________________________________________________________
> Get your free mail --> http://www.gundamwing.org
> Comprehensive GW info, official info, galleries, translations,
> doujinshi, fanfics, multimedia, music and much much more!




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Apr  1 09:46:27 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 1 Apr 2001 09:46:27 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <986118387.1382.18381.ae@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15717


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Confectionery.htm 
  Uploaded by : NicMitUK at aol.com 
  Description : Shortcut to Harry Potter Confectionery Graphics 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Confectionery.htm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

NicMitUK at aol.com
 







From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Apr  1 10:09:19 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 20:09:19 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and Quirrel (was Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <01C0BAE8.61CEDDA0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15718


>Except that Voldemort was already attached to Quirrel when Harry saw him in
>The Leaky Cauldron, wasn't he?

I believe so, but did Quirrel/Voldemort see Harry then? It's been a while since 
I've read PS/SS, and it's borrowed out to a friend right now or else I'd read 
back.
~Echo

I don't think so (remember Quirrel met Harry in the Leaky Cauldron on the 31 
July, the day of the break in at Gringotts)- Quirrel says "When I failed to 
steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me ... 
decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me ...' (pg 211 PS, Aust ed).

I believe that this is when Moldy Volde 'attached' himself to Quirrel.

Storm (still not forgiven that sneaky John, I know, it's not his computer that 
is Draco but him and its CANNON Draco!)




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Apr  1 10:41:34 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 10:41:34 -0000
Subject: Voldemort & Wormtail
In-Reply-To: <002501c0ba7e$5859ce20$0c14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9a70ku+6ed4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15719

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Clear Day*****************
> I am on my second reading of GoF and when I read this next line, it 
amused me. I was just wondering if everyone else noticed it when they 
read GoF.
> 
> Voldemort tells Wormtail, "I will allow you to perform an essential 
task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right 
hands to perform ...." 
> 
> Doreen
> *****************

Yeah, I noticed it.  Not the first time around, though.  She does 
that quite a bit, doesn't she?  Sneaks something like that in, almost 
as an afterthought, then it becomes important later on, and you're 
reading it going, 'now *why* didn't I pick up on that earlier?'  
She's the kind of writer I want to be when I grow up. 

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun Apr  1 11:21:53 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:21:53 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <01C0BADB.B17653E0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <9a730h+jgh5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15720

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Snuffles MacGoo <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:
> John
> 
> You are an evil bastard!!! No leather pants for you. I 'got' all the 
media 
> pranks today but this one caught me right off guard! Straight to 
panic mode 
> with no stops anywhere.

I just looked through the mails and nearly got a heart- attack, thank 
you very much. My husband tried to fool me this morning, but failed, 
so I guess I got my attention a bit too low. As Moody would say 
"constant vigilance"!! I should have known!!
 
> Rachael, nice that you have joined us, hope you stay.

Be careful Rachel, I'm only in this group since last tuesday, and 
already have great problems leaving the computer long enough to take 
care of the kids and the household ;)

> And, to Mecki who said 'Forgive my spelling'
> 
> Mecki, I'm a native English speaker and, as the *entire* list can 
attest I do 
> not spell as well as you do. <g>
> 
> storm

Thanks a lot for the compliments. I think I probably take three times 
as long for one letter, but if I stay in this group for longer ( and 
I'm already obsessed!!) it must be easier every time <g>

Mecki




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr  1 12:18:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 05:18:47 -0700
Subject: Killing Harry - Snape & the DEs - Mundungus - Ghosts - Shipping -  Magical College -Werewolf Bites - More
Message-ID: <3AC71CA5.6EEFDE84@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15721

I was in class all week, which was fun but hard, so I had no time to
check e-mail, so I had 500+ posts from just this list (and I'm on other
lists as well) to catch up on. Now I'm caught up, but it is 3:19am --
even without DST it would be 2:19am -- so i am probably irrational and
cranky, and probably going to be late for this afternoon's chat, so I
hope someone else will be recording at least the beginning.

Margaret Dean wrote on Tuesday:
> Doreen wrote:
> > She's bothered by the fact that no one seems to concerned
> >  about whether Hermione will die or not.  Everyone just assumes
> > she'll be fine.
> At the risk of starting up the gender-equality discussion all
> over again, I suspect this is because  Hermione is female.

Naw, it's because Hermione is JKR's self-insertion, and only very warped
people kill their self-insertions.

Amanda wrote on Tuesday:
> Lee Hillman wrote
> > I feel it's entirely likely that Snape will face a great deal of
pain
> > and tribulation getting back into the DE's good graces,
> It's not their good graces he has to worry about. It's Voldemort's.

In my opinion, V's good graces won't protect Snape against DEs who want
vengeance on S for him having gotten them or their loved ones into
Azkaban or for something else, unless Snape gets So Far into V's good
graces that V specifically orders the DEs not to damage Snape, or shows
so much affection to S that the DEs get the idea that V might want to
avenge the death of S. I mean, I feel sure that a lot of DEs kill or
torture other DEs for personal motives such as vengeance, romantic
rivalry, profit...

The DEs will want vengeance on S for putting them in Azkaban only if
they know it was him. I think in real life, they must know, since we saw
in the Pensieve, in the Karkaroff hearing, that Dumbledore stated in
open court that Snape had turned against the Dark Lord while he was
still in power and had been a useful spy for Our Side. Probably Rita
Skeeter wasn't the only journalist covering the trials, and even if some
information were withheld from the newspapers because of 'national
security', it would still spread by word of mouth.

tobeybickle wrote on Wednesday:
> I came here to discuss things like Ashwinders and Centaurs
> and Mundungus Fletcher,

I suppose Ashwinders are the reason why a fire that seems to be out can
burn down a house or a forest (except doesn't JKR say that Ashwinders
only come from magical fires?).

Mundungus Fletcher is named by Dumbledore at end of GoF as a member of
the old gang whom Sirius is to fetch, but near the beginning (ha!) of
GoF, after the riot at the World Cup, Percy tells us that Mundungus
Fletcher put in a claim for losing a twelve-room tent with built-in
Jacuzzi, when he was really sleeping under a cloak propped up on sticks.
We heard the name before in CoS, when Mr. Weasley comes homes from work
and says: "What a night! Nine raids. Nine! And old Mundungus Fletcher
tried to put a hex on me when I had my back turned ......" That all
makes him sound like not an entirely helpful member of the anti-Voldie
team. I looked up 'mundungus' and the dictionary said it means
low-quality, very bad smelling pipe tobacco. Fletcher is an arrow-maker.
I can't imagine what those names could be a clue about.

What about Centaurs?

april gc wrote on wednesday:
> In chapter 13 of PS/SS  (p220 US), one of the things they do
> in DADA is study the "different ways of treating werewolf bites".
> I tend to agree that you have to be treated right after the bite,
> but that you can be cured (otherwise it would be no different
> than treating any dog bite, I would think, and not a subject for
DADA).

I think that werewolf bites differ from dog bites not only in that they
pass on lycanthropy, but that contain werewolf spit, which could well
have magical harmful property, such as reducing healing, weakening the
immune system, or making the person go mad. Such that people are less
likely to heal and more likely to die from a werewolf bite than from a
normal wolf back. So what they learn in DADA could just be to save the
victim's life by magically removing the effects of werewolf spit, altho'
some victims would surely prefer to have been allowed to die rather than
be forced to live as werewolves. This was depicted in the fanfic Call of
the Wild, btw.

I was saddened that FB's section on werewolves says nothing about
whether lycanthropy is contagious when the werewolf is in human form. If
a human who happens to be a werewolf bites you, do you become a
werewolf? How about if he just slobbers on you?

Joywitch wrote on Friday:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed and I somehow missed it, but
> why is Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on Harry's booklist
> for his first year?  Isn't it the textbook for Care of Magical
> Creatures, which Harry doesn't start until his third year?

Maybe FB was supposed to be part of his first-year DADA class. After
all, it includes Pixies, Grindylows, Redcaps, Kappas -- the first of
which was in Lockhart's DADA course and the rest were in Lupin's, but
perhaps they were supposed to be briefly introduced during first year
and covered in more detail second year and kids should have been on to a
new area by third year.

Mecki asked on Wednesday:
> Why do some people change into ghosts when they die and
> others don't? We know Myrtle and Nick died by force, but
> Prof.Binns just fell asleep in his Armchair.

As someone has already mentioned, in an on-line chat, someone asked JKR
why some people become ghosts, and JKR's answer was something like:
"I'll give you a hint. The ghosts are not the happiest people."

> Myrtle and Binns died in Hogwarts, but I don't think
> Nick was executed there, so why has he, and some of the other
> House-Ghosts come to Hogwarts after their death?

We know that Dumbledore invited two homeless House Elves to live (and
work) at Hogwarts, and perhaps employing Filch the Squib was an act of
charity to someone otherwise unemployable (because of bigotry) in the
wizarding world. Maybe Dumbledore was far from the first Headmaster to
provide Hogwarts as a shelter for homeless magical beings.... I have
thought that ghosts might come from all over the UK to 'live' at
Hogwarts when they have been evicted from their previous homes, and
perhaps a number of the living paintings were given to Hogwarts by
wizarding families who could  no longer stand that nagging Violet or mad
Sir Cadogan.

Crystal wrote on Friday:
> Peeves is a bit different because he's a poltergeist.  Anyone know
> the theoretical difference?

In SS/PS, when the ghosts glide through the Great Hall while Harry is
waiting to be Sorted, the Fat Friar is saying Let's give Peeves a second
chance, and Nearly Headless Nick replies: " He gives us all a bad name
and you know, he's not really even a ghost -"

Jim Ferer wrote on Wednesday:
> It all depends on what kind of woman you think is right for Harry.

Why does it have to be a woman?
I seriously believe that Harry, whose Dursley upbringing left him
tamping down his emotions and avoiding getting close to people, does not
yet HAVE a sexual orientation, and when eventually he does, it might not
be women that he fancies.

Personally, I like Harry/Ron rather than Harry/Draco (except maybe H/D
as a fling). Someone in this conversation mentioned Harry/Cedric, which
had previously never struck me as anything but a joke (one person says
Harry can't be gay because he's never noticed if a male looks good, and
the other replies with quotations showing that Harry noticed that Cedric
was handsome. Ha Ha).

little Alex wrote on Wednesday:
> Oh, the problems with being a slasher...  The first time I've read
> this, I thought it was Hermione/Ginny!

I like Hermione/Ginny. I liked Hermione/Viktor (except that, having
shown that he is a good guy despite his name, JKR will surely kill him
off in the next book, which kind of rules him out) until I read Andrea
from Brazil's fic...

Heidi wrote on Wednesday:
>  (She's obviously with Draco :)
> Ok, those of you who haven't read Surfeit of Kisses won't get it,
> and  if you're R/H, you probably are avoiding it and me like the
> "toadstools" we are

How could they mean 'toadstool' in a nice way? Surfeit of KISSES? Is
that a comment on shipping debates?

Amy Z wrote on (finally!) Thursday:
>  Ron seems to [know about Harry's crush on Cho], though there's
> no mention of Harry telling anyone at all.

At the Welcoming Feast for the other schools, Ron sees Fleur and says
enthusiastically "they don't make them like that at Hogwarts". Harry
automatically looks at Cho while replying "they make them just fine at
Hogwarts". Ron must be pretty dim if he didn't get the message.

little Alex wrote on Wednesday:
> Also, anyone know if there are *any* magical colleges?

As people have said already, JKR has said repeatedly that there is no
university for wizards. I am not the only person who finds it difficult
to believe that such traditionally scholarly and learned folk as wizards
don't have any higher education, and I have formed a theory that there
actually are scholarly guilds (collegium is just the Latin word for
'guild'), research institutes, and at least one Museum.

The scholarly guilds would teach scholars in an apprenticeship system
and award the Degrees of journeyman (Bachelor of Sorcery), master
(Master of Sorcery), and doctor (Th.D, th for 'thaumaturgy'), and they
would have libraries and lecture halls for the use of their members.
Earning the Th.D. must require having one's dissertation accepted by a
committee of senior doctors of the guild, and surviving a public
dissertation defense that lasts -- probably 24 hours. Any people could
come and watch for a while and line up to ask difficult questions and
heckle or cheer.....

The research institutes and the Museum(s) would provide grants (that
cover basic living expenses as well as research expenses) and labs or
offices for researchers as well as libraries and artifact collections. I
imagine there are also guilds and apprenticeship systems for more
practical professions, such as Healers like Madam Pomfrey.

Ed gerstin wrote on Wednesday:
> I hope this hasn't been addressed before: Does anyone have
> a theory about how Voldemort got his wand back at the end
> of GoF? OK, yes, he received it from Wormtail, but how did
> Wormtail get a hold of it?

It has been discussed before. I like the theory that Peter guided V to
the Potter house in person, so he was there when V was knocked down.
Being there in person, it could have been panicky instinct rather than
presence of mind that led him to pick up V's wand and take it with him
as he fled. Soon, he had enough presence of mind to decided either in
advance or very quickly what to do when Sirius caught up with him. I
imagine that he had both his own wand and V's wand with him all those
years as a rat. Someone has pointed out that the animagi don't lose
their clothes when they transform into animals and back again. I think
they keep their clothes, jewelry, wands, eyeglasses, wristwatches, and
all the normal stuff in pockets with them in magical form while they are
animals and it turns back when they do.  I have asserted that this is
one reason it is better to be an animagus than a werewolf, because all
that will transform with a werewolf is clothes, eyeglasses, and wedding
rings. Everything else falls off and gets lost or damaged.

Chained by Freedom wrote (still on Wednesday):
>  Harry grew up in a wealthy household, yet had very little in
> the way of materialistic objects. Therefor, he puts very little
> value on such things, and is generous with the small fortune
> his parents left him.

1. NOT 'therefore'. DESPITE or NONETHELESS
2. Wealthy? The Dursleys? In their little house and owning only one car?
I think they are very middle-middle.
3. Small fortune? Maybe it is a large fortune -- JKR said in a chat that
James had inherited enough money that he and Lily didn't need to work
for a living. They worked for a good cause instead.

tobeybickle wrote on Friday(!):
> And no amount of spiritual conviction on your part allows
> you to dictate morality for others.

I agree with everything you wrote in that post, but feel compelled to
play Devil's Advocate (Lee says it's because I have Jupiter in Libra):
Dictating morality for others is EXACTLY what we do when we post
security guards to prevent differently-ethical individuals from shooting
us with guns or clubbing us over the head in order to rob from our dead
bodies.

Rebecca wrote on Friday:
> An interesting question though is what happens if a muggle
> family with attitudes like the Dursley's produces offspring
> with magical powers

I suppose that Dursleys whose offspring was magic would make life
difficult for that offspring. Rather than adoring himer and spoiling
himer rotten like Dudley, they would scold and spank him for acting
weird. Heesh might be as eager to escape the Dursley house as Harry was.
Perhaps the wizarding world has some legal mechanism to declare parents
unfit and abusive and free the child to be placed with a foster home.
The unfit and abusive  Muggle parents could be provided with a false
memory of their child dying or being institutionalized.

Now it is 5:14am. As soon as the spellchecker finishes, I'm going to
bed. I  hope someone else is recording the chat.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sun Apr  1 13:02:34 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:02:34 -0000
Subject: John-Draco? (was Re: Voldemort and Quirrel )
In-Reply-To: <01C0BAE8.61CEDDA0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <9a78ta+7u1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15723

> Storm:

 (still not forgiven that sneaky John, I know, it's not his computer 
that 
> is Draco but him and its CANNON Draco!)

Eh? Such an inside comment. I?d like to have it explained..if 
possible :)

/Jennifer




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr  1 13:20:42 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 08:20:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
References: <9a6lph+5kt1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001701c0baae$8e860ec0$1b14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15724

John,
I wonder what it is like to have to watch your back when you have 1,000+
people layin' for ya?

My mother will crack up when she hears that her April Fool's Master daughter
has been duped ... hook, line, & sinker! My father had to have fallen off of
his cloud laughing!! He was my yearly target. (and he loved it)

Doreen, deleting all of her WB hate mail and placing her Hagrid and bookends
back on her shelf, and glaring in the direction of UK
********************
John,

Next time you're planning such an April's fools' joke, share it with
other lists' moderators. It would've had much more effect if we'd
have sent similar messages to *all* the lists mentioned in the post.

Signing it 'Sincerely,' was a nice touch :)

yael *wondering if she's too evil*




_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 13:29:01 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 06:29:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV? - Snape
In-Reply-To: <3AC69FEF.3B974283@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010401132901.91987.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15725

> Knowing me, I thought of Snape's character, which is probably very
> colored by Harry's viewpoint. I don't think there's any argument
> that Snape hates Harry. But as I've pointed out before, if you 
> ignore the manner in which Snape does things, much of the actual 
> actions he takes are protective of Harry. 

Snape reminds me of a boy who's been ordered to look after his baby
brother while mom's at the store.  "What!  ME!!! What if someone sees
me?!?!"  He glares angrily at the object of his disgust but does rush
over when the baby plays with matches.

I think Dumbledore gave Snape the responsibility (after PS/SS) of
keeping Harry safe and although he resents the job he does it because
it was Dumbledore who asked.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From joanne_rowling2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr  1 13:53:50 2001
From: joanne_rowling2001 at yahoo.co.uk (joanne_rowling2001 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:53:50 -0000
Subject: Newbie Introduction
Message-ID: <9a7bte+7q80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15726

Hello


I have been talking to several authors recently and found out that 
being able to discuss a series of books directly with the fans 
provides an invaluable resource. As you may have noted the most 
recent of the series, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, had a 
small mistake in it and hopefully by being here to talk with adult 
fans, such as yourselves, similar mistakes will not crop up in the 
future.


I guess most of you already know a lot about me. If not there are 
several good websites available with a biography of my life.


--Joanne




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sun Apr  1 13:54:57 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 06:54:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Killing Harry - Snape & the DEs - Mundungus - Ghosts - Shipping -  Magical College -Werewolf Bites - More
Message-ID: <20010401135458.03EAC36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15727

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010401/7e9ac58d/attachment.ksh>

From NicMitUK at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 14:00:50 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:00:50 -0000
Subject: Newbie Introduction
In-Reply-To: <9a7bte+7q80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a7cai+l3fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15728

Hello Jo... or not as the case may be ;-)

>If not there are several good websites available with a biography of 
my life.

You forgot to mention the books - especially the one you hate... you 
know the one don't you.

Nick

PS. Why aren't you using your real email address, you know the one 
with your ISP - the one you chat to me using.





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 14:07:45 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 07:07:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newbie Introduction
In-Reply-To: <9a7bte+7q80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010401140745.93838.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15729


--- joanne_rowling2001 at yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Hello

You forgot your middle initial.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 14:25:49 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:25:49 -0000
Subject: Funniest stuff
In-Reply-To: <F266ZPAvw3WLmcwuqvI0000633b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a7dpd+lgdf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15730

Crystal wrote: 
> My favorite scene from the books so far was in the first book 
during Christmas.  Percy, Fred and George came into Ron and Harry's 
room just after they had all gotten their sweaters.  The image of 
Percy jammed into his sweater with the arms flailing out, being 
frog-marched down to breakfast was a wonderful visual.

My funniest (and favourite) scene is also a Christmas one - the feast 
in PoA.  McGonagall and Trelawney crack me up!

"'...Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise 
will be the first to die!'

'We'll risk it, Sybill,'"

Gwen.

> What was everyone's favorite scene?
> (apologies if this has been run through before - giving us newbies 
a chance to throw our own 2 cents in *smiles* )





From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 14:50:37 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 10:50:37 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Funniest stuff
Message-ID: <d3.12b37bc8.27f89a3d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15731

In a message dated 4/1/01 10:26:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
brandgwen at hotmail.com writes:


> "'...Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise 
> will be the first to die!'
> 
> 'We'll risk it, Sybill,'"
> 
> 

  My favorite is this....."Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender? said 
Ron.
This makes me crack up
          Tessie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 14:51:28 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:51:28 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
In-Reply-To: <20010330070816.29212.qmail@web512.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9a7f9g+fktp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15732

Raven wrote: 
> Lupin tells Harry in the Shreiking Shack that he saw him and 
Hermione on the Marauder's Map going to visit Hagrid and then going 
into the Whomping Willow.  Why, then, didn't he see the OTHER Harry 
and Hermione in the Forbidden Forest, too?  We know from Harry's 
Crouch Sr. experience in GOF that the map covers at least the 
outskirts of the forest.  Any theories?

No theories, sorry.  Instead another question.  Lupin said he saw 
Harry, Ron and Hermione not just go to Hagrids, but enter the hut.  
This suggests to me that the hut is on the map.

If this is the case, why don't people inside the hut show up on the 
map?  People inside the castle do.  However, Lupin speaks of the three 
coming and going, but not what they do in the mean time.  Further, 
Harry never noticed Pettigrew's dot on the map, between his 
disappearance and recovery.

Could it be that the mapmakers didn't plot the interior of Hagrid's 
hut and garden?  Wouldn't it, then, make a wonderful hiding place for 
miscellaneous miscreants to hide?

Pettigrew (PoA) and Sirius (GoF) both used it, so why not?
Cheers,
Gwen.




From andrea_richland at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 14:52:47 2001
From: andrea_richland at hotmail.com (andrea_richland at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:52:47 -0000
Subject: good slash fics/slash authors?
Message-ID: <9a7fbv+pkn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15733


Hi,

I'm rather new here, and I was wondering if any of you could 
volunteer recs for slash fiction... Harry/Draco in particular? That 
is the pairing that strikes me most even from the books.

Who are the best slash author(s) in this fandom? Any stories that are 
universally regarded as very good? if anyone could offer some recs, 
I'll be greatly obliged!


thanks!

Andrea R.




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Apr  1 14:57:13 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 07:57:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] good slash fics/slash authors?
References: <9a7fbv+pkn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0ac701c0babc$45847320$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15734

On my FFN author page are some of the best Harry/Draco slash writers and stories I have found.  I am very partial to what I put up there though some bad ones may have snuck in at 4 am.  I hope this helps.  And you might read my own "This Used to Be My Playground" It's said by many to be one of my best H/D fics.

Saitaina
(just type Saitaina into the search and I'm the only one that'll come up)
~~~~~
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition. 
Where there's a will, I want to be in it. 
OK, who stopped payment on my reality check? 
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. 
Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. 
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr  1 15:08:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 10:08:07 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Questions to the Moderators
References: <3AC6B239.CA793183@swbell.net> <007501c0ba6b$53086520$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3AC74456.71A32D4F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15735

Hi --

Denise R wrote:

> Penny, I know this is OT, but for ALL the folks on all lists----WHAT'S
> YOUR DUE DATE AGAIN?

April 15th.

To make the message more on-topic:

FANFIC:  All fanfic discussions, requests for recommendations, etc.
belong on OT-Chatter.  Thanks!!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Apr  1 16:37:03 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:37:03 -0000
Subject: Funniest stuff
In-Reply-To: <F266ZPAvw3WLmcwuqvI0000633b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a7lff+4a3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15736

My favorite scenes are as follows:

In P/SS when HH&R are in the Devil's Snare.  Hermione freaking 
out, "But there isn't any wood!"  And Ron's outraged reply, "HAVE YOU 
GONE MAD! ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"  Makes me giggle every time I read 
it and if they change it in any way in the movie, you will all be 
able to hear my outraged scream of horror!

In GoF when the Weasleys use Floo Powder to come to Privet Drive to 
pick up Harry.  The mental picture I have just slays me.

Trina, still recovering from John's April Fool's joke.    




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 16:49:17 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:49:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down-- An Idea
In-Reply-To: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9a7m6d+esec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15737


I have not read any of the otehr replies to this, but I know how to set up a private listserve using majordomo.

There is no reason why we should have to lose our precious community. All we need to do is continue our conversations in private. The listserve can be advertised so that people will know how to join.

Let's talk about this.... Let's not give up!!


Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Dear Listmembers,
> 
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. As Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this information to
> the group.
> 
> Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of Warner Bros.,
> who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and several
> other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe Warner's
> copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this and have
> served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 midnight
> Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all its
> HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from Yahoo
> services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
> 
> The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few options. If you
> have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send them to our
> address at HPforGrownups-Owner at y... (which will only be working
> for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at w...) as a
> contact.
> 
> Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 2001.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
> 
> > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > To: HPforGrownups-owner at y...
> > Cc: [deleted]
> > Subject: Deletion of your group
> > 
> > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> > 
> > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your HPforGrownups
> > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry Potter", and
> > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. Yahoo! is bound
> > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove all such
> > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group will be
> > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> > 
> > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> > 
> > Sheena G.
> > Technical Executive
> > Yahoo!, Inc.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 16:52:03 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:52:03 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <001701c0baae$8e860ec0$1b14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9a7mbj+nba9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15738


If this is an April Fool's joke, Jon, I am quite the fool.

*dopeslap*

Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> John,
> I wonder what it is like to have to watch your back when you have 1,000+
> people layin' for ya?
> 
> My mother will crack up when she hears that her April Fool's Master daughter
> has been duped ... hook, line, & sinker! My father had to have fallen off of
> his cloud laughing!! He was my yearly target. (and he loved it)
> 
> Doreen, deleting all of her WB hate mail and placing her Hagrid and bookends
> back on her shelf, and glaring in the direction of UK
> ********************
> John,
> 
> Next time you're planning such an April's fools' joke, share it with
> other lists' moderators. It would've had much more effect if we'd
> have sent similar messages to *all* the lists mentioned in the post.
> 
> Signing it 'Sincerely,' was a nice touch :)
> 
> yael *wondering if she's too evil*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
> HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
> the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
> cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
> now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...)
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  1 16:54:21 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 16:54:21 -0000
Subject: Funniest stuff
In-Reply-To: <9a7lff+4a3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a7mft+44o3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15739

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:

Her favourite scenes which I snipped :)

My favourite scenes:

PS/SS:
Hagrid getting motion sickness on the Gringotts mining cars.  And the 
fact that this giant man carries a pink brolly always strike me as 
funny. 


CoS:
The very beginning where Harry has the Dursleys cowed because they 
don't know yet he's not allowed to practice magic -- and he scares 
Dudley by saying things like "Jiggery pokery!" 

PoA
Harry's first view of the Knight Bus. 

GoF: 
The Quidditch Championships, and the displays by the Veela and the 
Leprechauns every time their team did something spectacular. And the 
fact that even boys who are just beginning to reach the stage where 
girls are interesting -- feel like making ridiculous displays for the 
Veela. 

Harry in the bathroom, discovering he has Myrtle as an audience. 






From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Apr  1 16:51:53 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 12:51:53 -0400
Subject: Stouffer Article...
References: <20010329052422.7383F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3AC75CA7.51367741@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15740

--heidit at netbox.com wrote:
<snip>
Penny- something else for us to get VERY pissy with the prats at teh
times about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/01/business/01BOOK.html
Discussion of this article will be on the regular list.
<snip>

I just went and read the article. I actually drew my partners attention to it, and he has raised an interesting point....one that even I hadn't thought of before. Go figure.

Perhaps the reason no one has heard of Stouffers books is because they never existed until now.

I mean, think about it...has ANYONE heard of her? I certainly haven't, and I read A LOT of childrens fiction. I even took a course with it in univeristy, and they had some of the most obscure books for children, and she was nowhere in existence.

And the whole thing with her not coming out with it "until she had a good enough case to go forward" (I don't know which article this was from, but I read it somewhere) is a bunch of poopy. She wanted to wait until JK Rowling had gotten enough exposure, IMO.

But I'm getting away from the topic...state it again, perhaps the reason no one has heard of Stouffers books is because they never existed until now.

What does everyone else think about that?

Hugs to all,
Jamieson
*who, after reading the article, shakes his head wearily, looking at the picture of Stouffer, and thinks 'wow, she could use a make over'....and saunters down to stage centre to stand in a spotlight, does a groundshaking rendition of 'These Boots were made for Walking" and exits stage left amongst resounding applause.*
--
"....dream harder, dream true..."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Apr  1 17:08:33 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:08:33 -0000
Subject: M&S chocolate frog cards
Message-ID: <9a7nah+l63v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15741

Hi just wondered if anyone was collecting the frog cards from M & S. 
I have a the set plus some extras and think they are really good. 
Just in case anyone is planning to send some abroad I was at the 
airport on friday and there were big warnings posted saying that a 
number of countries are now banning british choclates from being 
bought in (re: foot and mouth)!!!!
regards Niamh 
ps no this is not an april fool I really read it




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sun Apr  1 17:47:49 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:47:49 -0400
Subject: Confectionary
References: <986118387.1382.18381.ae@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c0bad3$ded15360$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15742

Those are adorable!!!  I want to collect the cards. <grins>  Are they
available in the US too?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Last Movie Seen:  "The Mexican" - 4 out of 5 stars
Current Book:  "From the Corner of his Eye" by Dean Koontz
------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 5:46 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New file uploaded to HPforGrownups


>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
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>
>   File        : /Confectionery.htm
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>
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>
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>
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From john at walton.to  Sun Apr  1 17:50:45 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:50:45 -0000
Subject: Happy April Fool's Day!
Message-ID: <9a7ppl+mi2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15743

::walks onto stage in leather trousers, maimed and with imprint 
of modem on his forehead::

As it's now past 12 noon on April Fool's Day, the shutdown joke 
is now officially over. I'm terribly impressed with how quickly you 
caught on ::evil look at Cassie:: but I do hope nobody sent 
emails to AOL or Yahoo! telling them how naughty they are.

But a few of you fell for it, hook, line and sinker, going so far as to 
send us naughty Moderators email. Let's have a look...but for 
your dignity, you'll remain anonymous (but feel free to blush):

==
If you need it, I currently have a list space (meaning I have a lit 
but no one's there) for HJPforGrownups.  Same list just one 
letter changed which means they cannot close it down to my 
knowledge.  If this is un-suitable for you it is understandable and 
it will go back to being an un-used rpg list so it's no sweat off my 
back if you don't want it.  
==
Hey, guys. I am just furious at AOL/WB for pulling a stunt like this. 
I'll spare you my rant (Even Ron would blush at how much I can 
swear when I get angry like this <g>), and just give you some 
suggestions. Well, a suggestion, anyway. Only thing I can think 
of is to move the group elsewhere, which is what I'm doing for 
granger-weasley. Topica (www.topica.com 
<http://www.topica.com> ) is a really great free service that, I 
believe, allows you to move members from another group. It's a 
smaller service than Yahoo, and probably will sail right under 
AOL's radar. I assume that their part in all of this is that they want 
to be exlusive content holder for HP, but they're such idiots they 
probably don't know what they're doing half the time. Moving 
would be an incredible hassle with so many members, but I 
don't think I could bear losing this group....
==
John, I'm stunned.  What about the Chatter group?  Can we 
rename our 
group in such a way that HP isn't part of the title?  Or just start a 
new group with a less conspicuous name?  Call it the Mod 
Squad group 
or something, and let the members know?  I'd be happy to start 
private emailing the list right now, if we can do something like 
this.  It was just our title that got us in trouble, wasn't it?
==

Thanks to all of you for taking part. See you again next time on 
April Fool's Day, 2002! ::evil laugh::

--John, April Fool 2001





From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 18:06:42 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:06:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
Message-ID: <F228GkQ6mBySsxVY60m00006f90@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15744

>>I don't think there's any argument that Snape hates Harry. But as >>I've 
>>pointed out before, if you ignore the manner in which Snape >>does things, 
>>much of the actual actions he takes are protective of >>Harry.


I agree that we've seen Snape be protective of Harry (such as at the 
Quidditch match in PS/SS), but we have also seen a lot of Snape taking House 
Points away and humiliating Harry in class.  Granted, Snape does this to all 
the Gryffindors, but I don't think that protecting Harry is what most 
motivates Snape's actions towards him.

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sun Apr  1 18:21:50 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 18:21:50 -0000
Subject: John-Draco? (FF)
In-Reply-To: <9a78ta+7u1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a7rju+684t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15746




Storm: (still not forgiven that sneaky John, I know, it's not his 
computer  that  is Draco but him and its CANON Draco!)

Jennifer: Eh? Such an inside comment. I?d like to have it 
explained..if  possible :)


John has a computer named Draco. (I cannot make fun of him because I 
have a cat named Draco; we are both mad.) And due to his AF joke, 
Storm was comparing him to Draco Malfoy, but drawing a distincting 
between "canon" Draco, who is the nasty, villanous Draco from the 
books, and "fanon" Draco, who is the creation of fanfiction writers, 
and a very popular and beloved little tyke (believe it or not) as 
well as something of a sex symbol. I think she wanted to make quite 
sure that John realized it was an insult. :)

Cassie





From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr  1 19:18:02 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:18:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy April Fool's Day!
References: <9a7ppl+mi2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC77EE9.89063565@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15748

John Walton wrote:

> ::walks onto stage in leather trousers, maimed and with imprint of
> modem on his forehead::

You can still *walk*? Somebody's not doing his job.

> As it's now past 12 noon on April Fool's Day, the shutdown joke is now
> officially over. I'm terribly impressed with how quickly you caught on
> ::evil look at Cassie:: but I do hope nobody sent emails to AOL or
> Yahoo! telling them how naughty they are.

You're lucky I read my emails first. I had a suspicion that you might be
pulling our collective leg, so I checked the mail before I took any
action. After the Great Tripod Shutdown Debacle, who could tell? I read
on the Alan Rickman Guestbook last week or so, that several people's
Rickman sites, product of devoted years of collecting, and quite
conscious of copyright issues, were unceremoniously yanked with no
warning at all. They lost their content.

I am, however, mightily upset with you for not attempting to avoid blame
by casting all the responsibility on to your Draco. It's just the sort
of thing he'd do, to all of us Potter-lovers. Serves you right for
naming him that.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 19:21:26 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 15:21:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape protecting Harry
Message-ID: <F260QtgTIFprhMOgRGk00012802@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15749



>Why does it have to be Snape who saves Harrys life under the
>Quidditchmatch in the first year? Is he the only teacher at the field
>to notice what sort of a spell that was thrown over Harrys bromstick?
>
>/Jennifer



I believe it was later in that same book where the canon reveals that Snape 
was trying to *save* Harry, not knock him off as previously thought by H,H 
and R.  (Someone who has a book at their disposal -- can you please back me 
up/prove me wrong on this one?)
_________________________________________________________________
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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  1 19:21:32 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 19:21:32 -0000
Subject: Happy April Fool's Day!
In-Reply-To: <9a7ppl+mi2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a7v3s+reee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15750

Feeling especially bright today for recongising the joke.
Let's get some advance planning done for next year and have the news 
sent out through all lists -- How about this for a breaking news?  
JKR falls ill to some mysterious illness (or car crash etc.) and 
unable to finish the series -- that will be funny.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "John Walton" <john at w...> wrote:
> ::walks onto stage in leather trousers, maimed and with imprint 
> of modem on his forehead::
> 
> As it's now past 12 noon on April Fool's Day, the shutdown joke 
> is now officially over. I'm terribly impressed with how quickly you 
> caught on ::evil look at Cassie:: but I do hope nobody sent 
> emails to AOL or Yahoo! telling them how naughty they are.
> 
> But a few of you fell for it, hook, line and sinker, going so far 
as to 
> send us naughty Moderators email. Let's have a look...but for 
> your dignity, you'll remain anonymous (but feel free to blush):
> 
> ==
> If you need it, I currently have a list space (meaning I have a lit 
> but no one's there) for HJPforGrownups.  Same list just one 
> letter changed which means they cannot close it down to my 
> knowledge.  If this is un-suitable for you it is understandable and 
> it will go back to being an un-used rpg list so it's no sweat off 
my 
> back if you don't want it.  
> ==
> Hey, guys. I am just furious at AOL/WB for pulling a stunt like 
this. 
> I'll spare you my rant (Even Ron would blush at how much I can 
> swear when I get angry like this <g>), and just give you some 
> suggestions. Well, a suggestion, anyway. Only thing I can think 
> of is to move the group elsewhere, which is what I'm doing for 
> granger-weasley. Topica (www.topica.com 
> <http://www.topica.com> ) is a really great free service that, I 
> believe, allows you to move members from another group. It's a 
> smaller service than Yahoo, and probably will sail right under 
> AOL's radar. I assume that their part in all of this is that they 
want 
> to be exlusive content holder for HP, but they're such idiots they 
> probably don't know what they're doing half the time. Moving 
> would be an incredible hassle with so many members, but I 
> don't think I could bear losing this group....
> ==
> John, I'm stunned.  What about the Chatter group?  Can we 
> rename our 
> group in such a way that HP isn't part of the title?  Or just start 
a 
> new group with a less conspicuous name?  Call it the Mod 
> Squad group 
> or something, and let the members know?  I'd be happy to start 
> private emailing the list right now, if we can do something like 
> this.  It was just our title that got us in trouble, wasn't it?
> ==
> 
> Thanks to all of you for taking part. See you again next time on 
> April Fool's Day, 2002! ::evil laugh::
> 
> --John, April Fool 2001




From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr  1 19:22:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:22:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape protecting Harry
References: <9a7ruo+75ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC77FE4.7C9C6323@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15751

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> Why does it have to be Snape who saves Harrys life under the
> Quidditchmatch in the first year? Is he the only teacher at the field
> to notice what sort of a spell that was thrown over Harrys bromstick?

I think it was because he knew Quirrell's secret and had been keeping an
eye on Quirrell for just such an action (hexing Harry's broom). Since he
knew who was doing it, and how, he could take action; everyone else in
the crowd, teachers included, just knew something was wrong.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr  1 19:26:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:26:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
References: <F228GkQ6mBySsxVY60m00006f90@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AC780CA.74197C3A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15752

crystal white wrote:

> I agree that we've seen Snape be protective of Harry (such as at the
> Quidditch match in PS/SS), but we have also seen a lot of Snape taking
> House Points away and humiliating Harry in class.  Granted, Snape does
> this to all the Gryffindors, but I don't think that protecting Harry
> is what most motivates Snape's actions towards him.

I never said it was; I postulated that it *might* be *part* of it. The
whole point was that we *don't* know. The original thread was about
whether or not Harry's point of view is really coloring what we, as
readers, see and understand about the action and the characters. I think
it does, and Snape was my example--Harry's interpretation of his
motivations and actions are valid, but probably far from complete, but
since we as readers only share Harry's interpretation, our view of Snape
is colored.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 20:25:27 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 20:25:27 -0000
Subject: M&S chocolate frog cards
In-Reply-To: <9a7nah+l63v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a82rn+k407@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15753

Hi Niamh and all

> Hi just wondered if anyone was collecting the frog cards from M & 
S. 

I didn't know they were different... how many are there in total?

Nick




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 20:30:36 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 20:30:36 -0000
Subject: M&S chocolate frog cards
In-Reply-To: <9a82rn+k407@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a835c+jkqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15754

Oh I am stupid - must read the box more closely...

There are 8 different cards... can someone with all 8, post what they 
are, thanks.

Must go shopping at M&S tomorrow to get some more Chocolate Frogs - 
I've only got 2 cards so far.

Nick





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  1 20:40:38 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:40:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape protecting Harry
In-Reply-To: <9a7ruo+75ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010401133838.00c282e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15755

At 06:27 PM 4/1/01 +0000, jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:
>Why does it have to be Snape who saves Harrys life under the
>Quidditchmatch in the first year? Is he the only teacher at the field
>to notice what sort of a spell that was thrown over Harrys bromstick?

Quirrell points out that "He needn't have bothered -- I couldn't do
anything with Dumbledore there."  So I think Albus is right that
Snape is motivated largely by a desire to even the score with
Harry father.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  1 21:25:32 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:25:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stouffer Article...
In-Reply-To: <3AC75CA7.51367741@sympatico.ca>
References: <20010329052422.7383F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010401141142.02fe9af0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15756

At 12:51 PM 4/1/01 -0400, Jamieson wrote:
>But I'm getting away from the topic...state it again, perhaps the reason 
>no one has heard of Stouffers books is because they never existed until now.
>
>What does everyone else think about that?

I'm not quite ready to pillory her for *that*, but I do think it more than 
likely that she's
entirely rewriting her books to insert new "evidence of 
plagiarism"...  When her books
are "re"-published in May, I am wholly expecting to see characters with 
names like
Nalbus Fumblefore, Sniveris Grape, Don Weatherby, and Procyon Blackbox.

I also suspect that Larry Potter's having glasses was an _a posteriori_ 
modification to
increase the resemblence to Harry.  (Three more weeks, and she'll quietly 
sneak in
the scar... and then claim that it was always there!)

>Hugs to all,
>Jamieson
>*who, after reading the article, shakes his head wearily, looking at the 
>picture of Stouffer, and thinks 'wow, she could use a make over'....

Nah... A makeover would only *increase* her resemblence to Bette Davis in 
_What Ever Happened
to Baby Jane?_.  :>



                                                 -- Dave




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr  1 21:41:00 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:41:00 -0700
Subject: Hermitage Ghost - John/Draco - Nitpicking
Message-ID: <3AC7A06B.1A4DAD7B@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15757

My before-nap post somehow left out:
Milz wrote:
> http://www.fife.50megs.com/haunted_buckholm_tower.html
> Scroll down a bit to Hermitage Castle. It tells of William de Soulis,
> a Scottish baron. He was killed in a a big pot of molten lead. I
> remember the Bloody Baron's description that he had splotches of
> silvery blood stains. What if the stains aren't blood and really
>  molten lead?

I ventured over to that website and found that the first ghost was "a
former laird of Buckholm, a man called Pringle".

Pringle! Like Appollyon Pringle, who was Filch's predecessor in Molly's
schooldays... "His favorite past-time was tracking down  covenanters
with his two ferocious hounds...   shrewdly guessing the exact location
where the religious dissenters were most likely  to be, [he]  led the
Dragoons to the exact spot ... A loud scream came from the woman as she
saw, hanging from hooks  attached to the old oak beam," Sounds like
someone with a personality just like Filch! This story COULD be where
JKR got that name.

"the bodies of her two menfolk ...  The wicked laird looked down upon
her, calling her an old witch. The old woman slowly dragged herself to
her feet, her eyes burning with hatred. She faced the drunken laird and
cursed him for what he had done."  Sounds like he was right that she was
a witch.

Jennifer K asked:
> Storm wrote:
> > (still not forgiven that sneaky John, I know, it's not his computer
> > that is Draco but him and its CANNON Draco!)
>  Eh? Such an inside comment. Id like to have it explained..if possible
:)

John very recently announced that he has got a new computer and he named
it Draco. Thus "not his computer that is Draco, but him"

There is constant discussion about fanon Draco being different than
canon Draco. Canon Draco ('canon' is what JKR herself wrote or said) is
a nasty little Nazi, possibly not too intelligent. Fanon Draco ('fanon'
appears to be a made-up altho' frequently used word meaning 'what fanfic
writers tend to agree about') is handsome and sexy and intelligent and
very wittily sarcastic.  Thus, "it is CANNON Draco".

Chained by Freedom wrote:
> First off, I meant to say therefore. I've known people that grew up
with very
> little in regards to materialistic, and they learn to do without those
things,
> and not to place value on them

I've known people who grew up in materially deprived circumstances, but
hungering after the material things they saw other people have, and as
grown-ups in more prosperous circumstances, they went kind of crazy on
the expensive toys -- big TV, big stereo, Ford Excursion, lots of
clothes -- the one among them to whom I am closest got way overextended
on credit cards and other things and declared bankruptcy and got way
overextended again, but bankruptcy is only allowed once per seven years,
so she attempted suicide.... I stand by NONETHELESS.

> Just curious, why are you nitpicking every single word I say?

Stick around for a while. You'll eventually see me nitpick EVERYONE.

Btw, nitpicking is named after a disgusting medieval custom: when people
liked each other, they would take turns picking lice out of each other's
hair and searching for lice eggs (called nits) to remove. We do this
nowdays to our cats and dogs with Flea Combs (very fine-toothed combs).
As a digression from a digression, the reason that lap dogs were
invented is so fleas would prefer to be on dogs & therefore jump OFF the
humans and onto the dog on the human's lap. Returning from
sub-digression, altho' the people the most intimately affectionate to
each other can have one lie down with head in the other's lap to be
nitpicked, the usual method of sitting side by side or front to back is
still affectionate and our ancestors did it back to our common ancestor
with monkey (more distant than our common ancestor with apes), because
hominids, monkeys, and apes ALL show friendship by nitpicking each other
(called 'grooming behavior').
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From clugo at ukonline.co.uk  Sun Apr  1 22:35:08 2001
From: clugo at ukonline.co.uk (clugo at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 22:35:08 -0000
Subject: Funniest stuff (and hi) and H/G
In-Reply-To: <9a7mft+44o3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a8aes+6rna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15758

Hi, 
this is my first ever post to a discussion group despite the fact 
that I have lurked on many.  For a long time I believed that joining 
a group as a posting member involved wrestling with a troll, I am 
relieved to find that this is not the case (it isn't is it ?).

Several members have recently written about funniest/favourite 
moments.
My favourite comic bits in all the books involve F.& G.Weasley 
especially when they are puncturing Percy's pomposity.  For example: 
changing his badge to Pinhead Boy; shaking their mother by hand and 
exclaiming, "How ARE you mother".

For the record, I firmly believe that a relationship between Harry & 
Ginny is inevitable and am suprised to find this seems to be a 
minority opinion.  I thought it was obvious this was going to happen 
so I am re-reading to find out why I had gained this impression.

Chris

 




From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 22:48:12 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:48:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: poor john
In-Reply-To: <986157040.3116.27390.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010401224812.55560.qmail@web9106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15759

Dears, I have been viewing the Orb, and I'm afraid...yes, I fear that's a
Grim stalking about John's home....the Inner Eye can be such a
burden...April is an unlucky month for some, and for John in
particular...it's never wise to tempt the Fates...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 23:19:28 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 01:19:28 +0200
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <985966728.671.43369.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010402002105.00a167e0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15760


I've been thinking about the comments many list members made on the exact 
nature of the Snape's task. I believe [primarily for the reasons Amanda and 
Koinonia gave] that he returned to Voldemort as himself, and that ,yes, he 
placed  himself in some danger by doing so.

However, I've just realized that there could be another way for Snape to 
avoid punishment. What if his defection to Dumbledore's side was in fact 
authorized by Voldemort [or some high level DE]. They could have provided 
Snape with some information to establish himself as an useful spy and gain 
Dumbledore's trust.  If Snape had a true change of heart during that period 
[too much exposure to good], Voldemort would not know about it, and 
Dumbelore's remark at the Karkaroff's trial could still be explained in 
terms of the original mission thus giving Snape room for maneuver.

Sorry if this does not make much sense --it's syntax and not spelling I'm 
worried about.


Vlatka


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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  1 23:34:22 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 16:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010402002105.00a167e0@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <20010401233422.23179.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15761

> I've been thinking about the comments many list members made on the
> exact nature of the Snape's task. I believe [primarily for the 
> reasons Amanda and Koinonia gave] that he returned to Voldemort as 
> himself, and that he placed  himself in some danger by doing so.


I think that's an understatement; he's been close to Dumbledore for
twelve years, V. obviously knows he's gone and declares he must be
killed.  There are just too many people around who know where he's
been.  Going back to V. means he's dragon kibble in very short order.

And look at it from V's point of view.  He's got to make an example
of somebody so the other DE's get the message.  What better way to do
it than by torturing Snape?

Here's a challenge: what OTHER task is it possible for Snape to
undertake that does NOT include going back to V?  

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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sun Apr  1 23:39:30 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:39:30 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
Message-ID: <93.90ea741.27f91632@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15762

In a message dated 4/1/01 4:35:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mgrantwich at yahoo.com writes:


> I think that's an understatement; he's been close to Dumbledore for
> twelve years, V. obviously knows he's gone and declares he must be
> killed.  There are just too many people around who know where he's
> been.  

You're taking the bait and assuming he's the DE Voldemort was talking about.. 
I think Voldemort was refering to someone else.. JKR made sure he didn't say 
the name of who he was refering to, and I think there's a surprise there.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 00:28:11 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 00:28:11 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
Message-ID: <LAW2-F66KuTcPXxYoCT00007039@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15763

This is my first posting, so excuse any ignorance/crassness etc, but I think 
an important dynamic would be missing if Dumbledore was female - a mother, 
or grandmother, figure would be less likely to back off and give Harry his 
chance to deal with Voldemort.  It would also weaken the impact of the scene 
where Mrs Weasley gives Harry his first experience of a motherly embrace - 
one I find very moving.  Other than that, I agree with Liz.  I don't think 
JKR is sexist, but maybe I am, in thinking that, much as I love HP, JKR took 
a whole sub-genre - witch-school, flying on broomsticks etc, [e.g. Worst 
Witch stories among many others] that used to be a little-known girl-thing, 
and made it accessible to boys.  And boys, in HP, as in life, tend to take 
over.  Sure, there are strong female character, but the male characters 
initiate most of the action, and the wizarding world is clearly as 
male-dominated as the real world.  Given JKR's influence, I wonder if it 
will still be possible, as it was in the past, to write about a 
female-dominated, witch-world.  Would love to know what other people's 
thoughts are on this.

Fionngheala


>From: "Elizabeth Clayton" <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:59:07 +1000
>
>
>
>
> >From: Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu>
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
> >Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:46:01 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high positions
> > > ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as many
> > > people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by
> > > women?  Just like people are reluctant to vote for a woman for a high
> > > ranking position, people tend to be more interested in men's sports,
> > > in men as heros, in men with power, and women with looks.
> >
> >The question of Fudge or Dumbledore as a woman is an entirely different
> >one, in a way, from the question of Harry as a girl.  While I think
> >girl-Harry may indeed have reduced popularity (certainly initially) by
> >casuing the publisher to label the series as 'girls' books' rather than
> >'children's books', I don't think having a Cornelia Fudge nor an Alba
> >Dumbledore would've been detrimental to the series' popularity nor in
> >any way unbelievable. We already have Minerva MacGonagall as deputy
> >headmistress, and I doubt that in 2001 anyone's head would've exploded
> >at the notion that she was the actual headmistress instead.  And as for
> >the MoM -- Britain, unlike the US, has elected a woman to serve as its
> >chief executive.
> >
> >(Reminds me of that joke from around the time that Major succeeded
> >Thatcher, about the little girl saying, "But he can't be prime
> >minister; only girls can be prime minister.")
> >
>And remember, when Harry is in Dumbledores office, he notices there are
>portraits of former headmasters AND headmistresses. So obviously there have
>been female leaders of Hogwarts in the past. It just happens that there's a
>male now.
>
>Liz
>-----
>'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
>'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's
>an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
>-----
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  2 00:32:12 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 20:32:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Wormtail
Message-ID: <000301c0bb11$96464680$10f44e0c@m3s2j0>

No: HPFGUIDX 15764

Yes I thought it was a good play on words! I'm reading it for the second
time too. My boys and I are on chapter 34 and they seemed to handle the
horrors of chapter 32 very well. They were very shocked about Cedric's
death. I just wanted to let you know what I thought of those words too.
>From Witchwanda2002
-----Original Message-----
From: pbnesbit at msn.com <pbnesbit at msn.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, April 01, 2001 6:41 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort & Wormtail


>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
>> Clear Day*****************
>> I am on my second reading of GoF and when I read this next line, it
>amused me. I was just wondering if everyone else noticed it when they
>read GoF.
>>
>> Voldemort tells Wormtail, "I will allow you to perform an essential
>task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right
>hands to perform ...."
>>
>> Doreen
>> *****************
>
>Yeah, I noticed it.  Not the first time around, though.  She does
>that quite a bit, doesn't she?  Sneaks something like that in, almost
>as an afterthought, then it becomes important later on, and you're
>reading it going, 'now *why* didn't I pick up on that earlier?'
>She's the kind of writer I want to be when I grow up.
>
>Peace & Plenty,
>
>Parker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Mon Apr  2 02:02:13 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:02:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermitage Ghost - John/Draco - Nitpicking
Message-ID: <20010402020214.08BEE274A@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15765

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 02:37:13 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:37:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] poor john
References: <20010401224812.55560.qmail@web9106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00e201c0bb1d$d4340ac0$d707173f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15767

One can only hope he wasn't the first to get up from a table of 13
...., but then .... *eg*


> Dears, I have been viewing the Orb, and I'm afraid...yes, I fear
that's a
> Grim stalking about John's home....the Inner Eye can be such a
> burden...April is an unlucky month for some, and for John in
> particular...it's never wise to tempt the Fates...
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
point your cyberbroomstick at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more
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>
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>





From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr  1 23:41:51 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 19:41:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <93.90ea741.27f91632@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010401194151.009e0e90@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15768


Hi - newbie here =). I picked up the 'Prisoner of Azkaban' (my favourite
book in the series) for a quick 5-minute read two nights ago, and decided
that I just had to reread the whole thing. After a day of relative
obsession, I ended up here =). Now on to the topic at hand ...

>> I think that's an understatement; he's been close to Dumbledore for
>> twelve years, V. obviously knows he's gone and declares he must be
>> killed.  There are just too many people around who know where he's
>> been.  
>
>You're taking the bait and assuming he's the DE Voldemort was talking
about.. 
>I think Voldemort was refering to someone else.. JKR made sure he didn't say 
>the name of who he was refering to, and I think there's a surprise there.

It may very well be bait, but a very devious one at that. From the text, I
would assume that there are two, and only two, free Death Eaters missing:
one coward and one apostate, most probably Karkaroff and Snape
respectively. I don't have 'The Goblet of Fire' with me, but if my memory
serves, Karkaroff hadn't been revealed as a Death Eater yet, nor did the
reader know for sure that both had the Dark Mark on their arms, so it
wouldn't be surprising that the names were omitted. Oh, and a third absent
Death Eater wasn't named as well, since Crouch Jr. hadn't been revealed
either. Personally, I think the surprise factor in that passage was meant
to cover unknown elements within the book.

Snape does say later that when the Dark Mark glows (or burns or whatever),
the Death Eaters (or at least those who have the Mark?) are expected to
apparate to their Master's side, implying that both he and Karkaroff were
supposed to do so. It would be reasonable to assume that their absence was
noted by Voldemort as the two who were missing. 

Samaporn



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Mon Apr  2 03:01:36 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 03:01:36 -0000
Subject: John-Draco? (FF)
In-Reply-To: <9a7rju+684t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a8q2g+odeb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15769

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Storm: (still not forgiven that sneaky John, I know, it's not his 
> computer  that  is Draco but him and its CANON Draco!)
> 
> Jennifer: Eh? Such an inside comment. I?d like to have it 
> explained..if  possible :)
> 
> 
> John has a computer named Draco. (I cannot make fun of him because 
I 
> have a cat named Draco; we are both mad.) And due to his AF joke, 
> Storm was comparing him to Draco Malfoy, but drawing a distincting 
> between "canon" Draco, who is the nasty, villanous Draco from the 
> books, and "fanon" Draco, who is the creation of fanfiction 
writers, 
> and a very popular and beloved little tyke (believe it or not) as 
> well as something of a sex symbol. I think she wanted to make quite 
> sure that John realized it was an insult. :)
> 
> Cassie

thank you cassie, you said it perfectly. I like fanfic draco. I DON'T 
like John (today, but maybe I'll be over it soon <bg>)

Storm (no, really John, you are a very naughty boy)




From john at walton.to  Mon Apr  2 03:49:42 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 23:49:42 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Netiquette -- be nice...
Message-ID: <B6ED6F16.1F8%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 15770

Yes, I know. Bit rich of me to be posting another ADMIN message so soon.
::chortle:: But this time I'm serious. ::flexes wand::

FFA's car thermometer is probably registering a bit of a cold spell right
now -- the list seems to be growing a tad icy and people seem to be taking
each other a bit literally.

TIME OUT!

Let's remember that this is a friendly group, containing people from all
sorts of backgrounds and with all sorts of life experiences. One of the
wonders of the World Wide Web is that we get to correspond with people who
we might ordinarily never 'talk' to in real life. One of the effects of this
is that other people's attitudes and mannerisms in conversation may be
different. 

However, one of the drawbacks is that we are communicating via text, where
there is no room for subtle nuance, no body language like a friendly wink to
show "just kidding", or "but you know I don't really mean that". Most of us
have taken to putting some sort of flag up (like "</rant>"), or signing off
with our mood "--John, tongue planted in cheek", that kind of thing.

Let's all take a bit of a chill pill and remember that if we're going to be
sending an email, we should check it. Not just for misspellings and typoes
(although that's certainly important) but for possible misconstruances,
mistaken meanings etc. We should also be vigilant for these when *reading*
messages -- what at first sounds like a dire insult might just be somebody's
normal way of speaking, which doesn't translate to text well.

Basically, be nice. And now I'll return to my modem-bashed, baby-sitting,
being-drawn-and-quartered-by-turtles (!?) state.

--John, Moderator With Rock #47




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Mon Apr  2 04:31:14 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 00:31:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: M&S chocolate frog cards
References: <9a835c+jkqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC80091.1151F265@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15771

Silly question...can you actually buy Chocolate Frogs?

Jamieson
*who is very tired, and just worked eight hours to come home to 98 emails, and is wimpering quietly as to not wake the cats...*

Nick Mitchell wrote:

> Oh I am stupid - must read the box more closely...
>
> There are 8 different cards... can someone with all 8, post what they
> are, thanks.
>
> Must go shopping at M&S tomorrow to get some more Chocolate Frogs -
> I've only got 2 cards so far.
>
> Nick
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
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>
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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 04:55:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 05:55:46 +0100
Subject: ADMIN Re: Nitpicking/Yes, it's another 'be nice' post
References: <20010402020214.08BEE274A@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <00c401c0bb31$4311b740$713570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15772

Oooooh!    Two ADMIN posts from different moderators in one night?  Don't
say we never give you anything.<g>

****

Echo wrote:

"Harry grew up in a wealthy household, yet had very little in the way of
materialistic objects. Therefor, he puts very little
value on such things, and is generous with the small fortune his parents
left him."

Catlady replied:

"1 NOT 'therefore'. DESPITE or NONETHELESS
2. Wealthy? The Dursleys? In their little house and owning only one car? I
think they are very middle-middle.
3. Small fortune? Maybe it is a large fortune -- JKR said in a chat that
James had inherited enough money that he and Lily didn't need to work for a
living. They worked for a good cause instead."

Echo, perhaps understandably, took offence to Catlady's nitpicking on point
1 (and let's face it, Rita plays Kicker for the San Francisco Nitpickers).

Echo, a belated welcome to the group and thanks for some interesting
thoughts.   My moderating hairnet was giving off sparks, which not only
threatened to set fire to my new hairdo, but warned me that the heat was
rising somewhere.

Hmmmm.  Perhaps Rita could have phrased her response in point 1, above, a
*little* more gently.  As John has just said, text can't always put across
the nuances of speech, so we need to phrase things very carefully when
writing messages.  We should, of course, bear in mind the same restrictions
when reading what others have said.

Part of our netiquette file reads thus:

"***BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER MEMBERS' FEELINGS:  If you disagree with
someone's message, no matter how strongly, remember to respect the other
person's right to his or her own opinion. If you do wish to refute the post,
do so gently, by building up your own case, rather than just knocking down
the other person's. And never attack your fellow club members (name calling,
personal remarks, etc). "

All members should take note of this.

It's also important, as we've said before, that people indicate when they
are stating their own opinion, as it is then implicit that other opinions
are possible.  Otherwise, we could end up with more situations where one
member feels they are being corrected, in unqualified fashion, by another.

Whether we choose 'therefore' or 'nonetheless' in the case of Harry's
apparent lack of materialism, we can only offer an opinion, based on his
behaviour and our own experiences.  It is possible to debate this question
(not for the first time) without attacking each other and it would be
interesting to hear other views.

Okay, now I have to work out how I can feel cold and heat at the same
time...

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 05:14:52 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 05:14:52 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
Message-ID: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15773

Hello all, I am not new to Harry Potter, although I am new to this 
board.  My screen name was Haggridd on another message board.  I am a 
52 year old OBGYN, reared in NewYork City, and now practicing in 
Louisiana.  I will review as many of the older posts as I can, but as 
for now...

Regarding Snape:
Has anyone considered that the only way for Snape to complete his 
mission would be to use polyjuice potion to disguise himself as Barty 
Crouch, Jr.?  There doesn't seem to be any other reason for the 
author to have kept him alive.  Voldemort can detect all lies.  Snape 
may not, therefore, represent himself as a double-turncoat. 
Voldemort knows Severus's history; he would be caught out.  He must 
find a situation where he would be accepted, and not asked any 
embarassing questions.  The Crouch, Jr. scenario satisfies those 
conditions. None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.  Even 
Karkaroff, were he to rejoin the Death Eaters, wouldn't have known 
that Crouch, Jr. had impersonated Mad-Eye Moody, let alone that Crouch 
had been the victim of the Dementor's Kiss.

Well I hope that I haven't resurrected some theory already thoroughly 
chewed over.  
Best wishes,
Haggridd




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 05:19:01 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 05:19:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
In-Reply-To: <20010330070816.29212.qmail@web512.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9a9245+n0it@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15774

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Seattle de Taeloure <pandora_lily at y...> 
wrote:
> Lupin tells Harry in
> the Shreiking Shack that he saw him and Hermione on
> the Marauder's Map going to visit Hagrid and then
> going into the Whomping Willow.  Why, then, didn't he
> see the OTHER Harry and Hermione in the Forbidden
> Forest, too?  
> 
> Raven
> 
> __________________________________________________


I have some issues with the Marauder's Map too. The answer to your 
question may create more questions. Lupin could not have seen the 
second set of Harry and Hermione because they were not there yet. The 
first time line did not contain two of each. The Lupin in the second 
time line may have chosen not to notice. He would have trusted they 
were there for a reason. 

Now what about the three Hermiones going to three classes at once. 
That would have been more noticeable. Especially because they kept 
wondering where she went and then she would pop up from a different 
hallway. If she was gaining an extra 5-6 hours a day [1 hour example 
per class] wouldn't her hair and nails grow faster? That had to be 
noticeable too.

Bugg 





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Apr  2 05:24:58 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 05:24:58 -0000
Subject: Three MIssing Death Eaters and Sirius (was Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010401194151.009e0e90@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9a92fa+e0ur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15775

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:

> It may very well be bait, but a very devious one at that. From the
> text, I would assume that there are two, and only two, free Death
> Eaters missing: one coward and one apostate, most probably
> Karkaroff and Snape respectively. (snip)

The first time I read GoF, and of course I didn't know about Crouch 
Jr yet, I beat my brain over who were the three: one coward who will 
be punished, one who "I believe" has left us forever (he will be 
died, of course), and one is loyally serving V at Hogwarts. I was 
thinking that Snape, Karkaroff, and Bagman were the three (I don't 
remember if this was before or after the Pensieve, but we heard of 
Karkaroff being involved with Dark Arts from the time Draco mentioned 
Durmstrang on the Hogwarts Express). I was thinking that Bagman must 
be the coward, as he was acting so scared, and that it was Karkaroff 
who was the one who had left forever (as he showed signs of wanting 
to get away), but I sure didn't want it to be Snape was still serving 
Voldemort. Could it be that Crouch Sr had fooled everyone all his 
life and really was a Death Eater? Or Bagman serving loyally and 
Snape as coward? ... my brain spinning...

Then I finished the book, understood the mystery plot, and realized 
(going back to the Death Circle scene to confirm) that it was obvious 
that Karkaroff was the coward, Snape the one who had left forever, 
and Crouch Jr the loyal servant. I had believed that Crouch Jr was 
dead! If JKR had made V say, here are [three] missing Death Eaters, 
Snape who has left us forever and will be killed, Karkaroff who is
too cowardly to join us and will be punished, and young Crouch who
is loyally serving V at Hogwarts, that would have given away the info 
that young Crouch was still alive and alerted to me to search where 
he could be hidden or disguised, which might have ruined the surprise 
ending. Even if the names he had stated were Snape, Karkaroff 'and 
one other', that would reduce a lot of the suspense of worrying about 
Snape's loyalty and worrying what danger was posed by Karkaroff. Or 
Bagman. 

On another tentacle, as Susan's sig line says, "The trouble is, just 
because it's obvious doesn't mean it's true." I suppose we can't know 
that Bagman wasn't a Death Eater too cowardly to return just because 
he was EVEN MORE SCARED of goblin creditors... JKR said there were 
many vacancies in the circle and V did not speak of all of them: one 
COULD have been Bagman rather than a dead man or Azkaban prisoner.

> Snape does say later that when the Dark Mark glows (or burns or
> whatever), the Death Eaters (or at least those who have the Mark?) 
> are expected to apparate to their Master's side, implying that both
> he and Karkaroff were supposed to do so. It would be reasonable to
> assume that their absence was noted by Voldemort as the two who
> were missing. 

But Voldemort knows that you can't Disapparate from Hogwarts. Snape 
and Karkaroff couldn't come to the meeting any more than Crouch Jr 
could. He must have known which were disloyal not merely by their 
absence, but by having received reports from Crouch Jr or some other 
informant, or by distant viewing or divination or some information 
spell connected to their Dark Marks, or Snape might have gone public 
with his conversion before V was overthrown.

But here is a real puzzle to me: how could Death Eaters, the marked 
ones anyway, not know each others' identities if they all must come
to the meeting and stand in their appointed places? And be called by 
name by their Lord? Peter was marked, so he must have had his 
appointed place in the circle. The Death Eaters in Azkaban knew that 
Peter was the informant of the Potters' location, based on Sirius's 
evidence about them cursing his name in their nightmares. NONE of 
them (convicted or exonerated) revealed at their trials that it was 
really Peter, not Sirius?

Snape didn't know it was Peter and believed it was Sirius. If he'd 
been seeing Peter at Death Eater meetings right along (and not seeing 
Sirius, but perhaps that could be explained away), how could he have 
believed the cover story that Peter had tried to attack Sirius to get 
vengeance for the deaths of... the Dark Lord's enemies? What kind of 
Death Eater is so attached to someone killed by the Dark Lord that he 
seeks vengeance for their deaths? It seems more and more likely to me 
that Snape had gone public with his change of allegiance before Peter 
was marked and joined the circle.

I think it works out on the time-line. Snape as spy warned Dumbledore 
that V put a high priority on killing J, L, and H, so the Potters 
went into hiding. Snape as spy warned Dumbledore that V was getting 
very busy with Fnding Charms to find the Potters, so D suggested a 
Fidelius Charm. Snape as spy warned Dumbledore that V had assigned 
many people to search for Sirius, assumed to be the hidden Secret 
Keeper. So Sirius must have been in hiding as well as Peter being in 
hiding. Interesting kind of hiding that lets him come out in the open 
to check on Peter. Then Snape came in out of the cold in the months 
before Peter turned traitor and was marked. 

In that hypothesis, Snape, as publicly exposed traitor to the Dark 
Lord, has to stay at Hogwarts the rest of life to be safe from 
vengeance by Death Eaters who walked free, AND he can't get another 
job because so many people know he WAS a Death Eater and give him no 
credit for being a spy. AND Peter turned traitor only at the last 
moment, possibly even under Imperius curse, but he knew he'd never be 
safe among the Light Side again even if it WASN'T his fault... 





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 05:28:51 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 05:28:51 -0000
Subject: More nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <9a35ds+bshp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a92mj+mave@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15776

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed and I somehow missed it, but 
> why is Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on Harry's booklist 
> for his first year?  Isn't it the textbook for Care of Magical 
> Creatures, which Harry doesn't start until his third year?
> 
> 
>       ^
>      / \
>     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
>    /     \
> __/       \__
> 
> 
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
> 


Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them seems to be more of a 
classroom book. It could have been used as an introducion to magical 
creatures. After two years of bookwork students are ready to learn 
how to care for them. 

Bugg 






From starling823 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 05:40:57 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:40:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission
References: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006801c0bb37$7e6c5c40$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15777

I'm not sure if this polyjuice potion thing could work.  
After all, one needs something (ie hair) from the person in order for the polyjuice potion to work.  I agree that that sending Snape as Barty jr. would probably be the best cover, but can you make polyjuice potion from a dead person?  After all, Barty kept our dear friend Mad-eye alive to make the potion, or this is the implication i got from the text anyway:
GoF, ch. 35, Veritaserum

"Dumbledore climed into the trunk. lowered himself, and fell lightly onto the floor beside the sleeping Moody.  He bent over him. 
'Stunned --  controlled by the Imperius curse -- very weak,' he said.  'Of course, the would have needed to keep him alive.' 
<snip!>
'The imposter needed, of course, to keep the real Moody close by, so that he could continue to keep making the potion.  You see his hair...' Dumbledore looked down on the Moody in the trunk.  'The imposter has been cutting it off all year, see where it is uneven?' "

To me, this means that one must be alive for a Polyjuice potion to work -- if not, why didn't Barty just chop off all of Moody's hair and just be rid of him?  
I dunno if Snape's mission is to go straight back to You Know Who...he's too valuable to send off on a mission like that.  Knowing JKR's sneaky tendancy to pull tricks, I bet that she'll pull a nice white rabbit out of her hat and surprise us all.  I just have the feeling she wouldn't make it that obivous.

Just my 2 knuts...

Abbie
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Haggridd 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, 02 April, 2001 1:14 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission


  Hello all, I am not new to Harry Potter, although I am new to this 
  board.  My screen name was Haggridd on another message board.  I am a 
  52 year old OBGYN, reared in NewYork City, and now practicing in 
  Louisiana.  I will review as many of the older posts as I can, but as 
  for now...

  Regarding Snape:
  Has anyone considered that the only way for Snape to complete his 
  mission would be to use polyjuice potion to disguise himself as Barty 
  Crouch, Jr.?  There doesn't seem to be any other reason for the 
  author to have kept him alive.  Voldemort can detect all lies.  Snape 
  may not, therefore, represent himself as a double-turncoat. 
  Voldemort knows Severus's history; he would be caught out.  He must 
  find a situation where he would be accepted, and not asked any 
  embarassing questions.  The Crouch, Jr. scenario satisfies those 
  conditions. None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.  Even 
  Karkaroff, were he to rejoin the Death Eaters, wouldn't have known 
  that Crouch, Jr. had impersonated Mad-Eye Moody, let alone that Crouch 
  had been the victim of the Dementor's Kiss.

  Well I hope that I haven't resurrected some theory already thoroughly 
  chewed over.  
  Best wishes,
  Haggridd


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From find_sam at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 06:45:27 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 06:45:27 -0000
Subject: Question about First Feast?
In-Reply-To: <20010331100909.D88CF36FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9a9767+ulsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15778

Echo wrote: When Harry looked over at Snape, he felt his scar burn 
with pain for a moment. Why is this?

I don't have my copy of PS/SS on hand at the minute (it's loaned out 
to friends too cheap to buy their own!), so I can't verify this, but 
doesn't Quirrel turn away from Harry, so that Voldemort is facing 
Harry directly for the first time? Voldemort, in the back of 
Quirrel's head, is what gives Harry the pain, not Snape - who just 
happened to look at Harry at the wrong time and thus get the blame.

In the trailer, when Snape (or, more correctly, Alan Rickman *as* 
Snape) glares at Harry, we can see Quirrel's turban bouncing away 
happily next to him, ie, Voldemort facing Harry.

--> Sam    





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 06:51:35 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 06:51:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission
Message-ID: <9a97hn+ils0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15779

As I said before, Crouch, Jr. is not dead; he is alive, but his soul 
has been sucked out by the Dementor's kiss.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 08:24:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:24:26 -0000
Subject: Ginny - birthdates - boa - joining - Snapetask
Message-ID: <9a9cvq+huht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15780

Kimberly wrote:

>In CoS, we get the 'Victim Ginny' that people don't 
>really like, but her one really big mistake was trusting the diary.  
>Normally that's not something you'd expect to result in mind control 
>and attempted mass murder. 

Also, gutsy, savvy, Imperius-resisting Harry makes the same mistake.

Penny wrote:

>She did say in at least one pre-GoF interview or chat that all the
>characters would fall for the wrong people.  <snip>
>  Under this logic, I suppose there's not much hope for my
>Neville/Ginny theory, which I quite like.  :--)

There's still hope!  I wouldn't say that Neville falls for Ginny or 
vice versa in GoF.  He asks her as a second choice (I don't even know 
that he's "fallen for" Hermione for that matter) and she says yes as a 
last resort.  Not exactly raging hormones.  

Tobeybickle (any relation to Travis?) wrote:

>Those dates are all from interviews with Rowling, and they're 
supported with 
>astrolgical evidence from the books-- Hermione being named after a 
moon of 
>Jupiter, Neptune's odd angle with Mars before Harry passes out, etc.

This is intriguing, but Hermione isn't one of Jupiter's moons.  It 
would be a more likely name for the moons of Uranus, which are all 
named after Shakespearean characters, mostly women (Hermione is the 
queen in The Winter's Tale), but it isn't one of those either.

I know, I have way too much time on my hands.

Pippin wrote:

> she was asked if
>there was anything about the earlier books she wished she could go 
back
>and change. She replied that she had thought when she wrote PS/SS 
that
>boa constrictors were poisonous, and had since learned that they
>aren't.
 >       Does anyone else remember seeing this?

No, but in any case, why is this bothering her?  I know that boas 
aren't poisonous, and if anything in PS/SS hinted that the snake was 
supposed to be, I would've noticed.  It does snap its jaws at Dudley 
(or is it Piers?), but that's something a boa, as well as a poisonous 
snake, might do; they swallow their prey whole.  I'd like to see it 
try it with Dudley.

Hmmm
is JKR fretting because she's spoiled a later plot point by 
making the zoo snake nonpoisonous?  Does this mean we're going to see 
it again?

Chris wrote:

>For a long time I believed that joining 
>a group as a posting member involved wrestling with a troll, I am 
>relieved to find that this is not the case (it isn't is it ?).

No, but you do have to try on the hat.  Those who emerge as Slytherins 
are required to wear leather pants and chant daily, "Millicent 
Bulstrode is a foxy lady!"  And no trying 10 times 'til you get put in 
Gryffindor!

As an alternative to trying on the hat, you may seek out and kill John 
Walton.  We have taken up a little collection and are offering a 
bounty of $25,000 US plus bail.  Welcome!

Magda wrote:

>Here's a challenge: what OTHER task is it possible for Snape to
>undertake that does NOT include going back to V?  

Cleaning out the owlery.  That'd make anyone go pale.

Rita wrote:

>If [Snape had] 
>been seeing Peter at Death Eater meetings right along (and not seeing 
>Sirius, but perhaps that could be explained away), how could he have 
>believed the cover story

I don't think the DEs get together for a meeting too often, nor does V 
usually identify them (they do come in masks, suggesting that secrecy 
among themselves is the norm).  V's rebirthing party is a special 
occasion and an exception.  Karkaroff was probably telling the truth 
when he said they each only knew a few of the others-a time-honored 
way to manage an underground movement.
 
Amy Z
who fell for the April Fool's joke completely and almost cried





From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 08:30:52 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:30:52 +0200
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <986194298.2100.53021.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010402100224.00a101d0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15781


I wrote:

 > I've been thinking about the comments many list members made on the
 > exact nature of the Snape's task. I believe [primarily for the
 > reasons Amanda and Koinonia gave] that he returned to Voldemort as
 > himself, and that he placed  himself in some danger by doing so.


Magda wrote:

>I think that's an understatement; he's been close to Dumbledore for
>twelve years, V. obviously knows he's gone and declares he must be
>killed.  There are just too many people around who know where he's
>been.  Going back to V. means he's dragon kibble in very short order.
>
>And look at it from V's point of view.  He's got to make an example
>of somebody so the other DE's get the message.  What better way to do
>it than by torturing Snape?

In the second part of my original post I tried to convey an idea [but 
obviously not very well, sorry] that Snape was in fact still a Voldemort's 
agent when he originally became a spy for Dumbledore [what is the term for 
that-- a double/triple agent??]. So, even if he did have a true  change of 
heart before Voldemort's downfall [and warned Dumbledore about the Potters, 
for instance], he could still return to the DE assembly and say something 
like: "Master, our plan worked, the trusting old fool has taken me into his 
confidence."
That could explain, IMVHO,  why Dumbledore vouched for Snape during the 
trials, and why Voldemort interprets Snape's absence as merely cowardice.
Granted, Snape still has some explaining to do about the Philosopher's 
Stone incident and a couple Cruciatus curses will probably be headed his way.

Hopefully I've managed to make my thoughts intelligible this time :)

Vlatka





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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 08:33:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:33:51 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV - scar hurting - werewolves - funniest moments
Message-ID: <9a9dhf+l717@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15782

Harry's POV:

I'm still not clear what you mean by "coloured," Naama, but IMO the 
matter of Harry's POV is mostly a subtle and pervasive thing.  Others 
have spoken to the effects on plot and what we learn; I'd like to 
point out the obvious but important fact that it also has the 
cumulative effect of giving us an insider's view of Harry himself.  
Whatever we might be encountering is frequently described as Harry 
sees it:  "Harry had never seen the Great Hall looking so 
magnificent."  (That's not verbatim, but it's as specific as I can get 
without the books and at 3 a.m.)  There is nothing dramatic or 
important to the plot about that particular observation, but it's the 
way Harry is seeing things, and as such it .  I wish I could come up 
with a better example, such as Harry's observations of other 
people
there are dozens in every chapter.

So why not use third person omniscient so we can get an inside look at 
Hermione, Ron, et alia?  As a reader, to make a very gross 
generalization, I find third person limited more powerful than 
omniscient narration.  Perhaps it's because it requires the writer to 
do a little less telling ("Hermione felt embarrassed") and a little 
more showing ("Hermione flushed") (again, an obvious example, but more 
subtle ones abound), and as another very general rule, showing is more 
powerful than telling.  Many writers go along with character A's POV 
for a long time-say, most of a chapter-and the effect when they switch 
is made stronger by the fact that we aren't used to seeing things from 
character B's POV all the time.  Draco Sinister is a good example 
(*kissing up to Cassie, she knows why*--but I mean it).  Strong Poison 
by Dorothy Sayers comes to mind as another; she uses POV shifts very 
effectively both within and between chapters, e.g., when Lord Peter 
solves the mystery the narration shifts suddenly to Bunter's POV, 
taking us into the mind of someone who (like us) doesn't know how it 
was done yet, but (unlike us, or at least unlike me) figures it out 
before our eyes.  It gives us one final hint, takes us one step closer 
to the inner circle, before the entire explanation is revealed.

Billy wrote:

<<If the story was told from Harry's POV then Harry would be in every 
scene.  E.g.
is the first chapter of GOF told from Harry's POV?  Obviously not as
he is unaware of what took place there>>

Rina wrote:

>But, the difference is that GoF's was also Harry's dream. He wasn't
>there, but I thought it was rather clear that the vivid dream that 
woke him
>suddenly was the scene with Frank, showing Harry and Voldemort's 
connection.

And the reason he's unaware of what took place is not that he didn't 
witness it--it seems clear that he did--but that it vanishes as he 
wakes up as dreams are wont to do, leaving him with only vague 
impressions.  Still, the chapter is not from Harry's POV.  It is quite 
clearly third person limited to Frank Bryce's POV. 

Neil wrote:

> I find him a little *too* dense when it
>comes to discovering details.  For example, at the beginning of CoS 
he has
>no idea why Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts in his third year, 
although
>this can't have been much of a secret, and - hey presto - it turns 
out to be
>key to a later part of the story. 
<stuff on curiosity about his parents snipped>

Harry does ask him about it when they first meet and gets the clear 
message that it's an unwelcome topic.  It can't have been much of a 
secret in Hagrid's day, but he is 60+, and who in his generation is 
likely to pass old gossip along to Harry?

Harry's lack of curiosity about his parents may be one place where 
plot is driving character.  JKR needs to keep certain things from 
Harry for the sake of the unfolding plot, but what ends up coming 
through to us is that he is simply not that curious about these 
things.  I can buy that he wouldn't ask Dumbledore about them-only in 
GoF is he really getting bold about asking Dumbledore most of the 
questions that are on his mind-and I can even buy that he wouldn't ask 
Lupin or Hagrid, though I wonder about that.  I would have thought 
that by the end of GoF you'd think he'd have owled a few lists of 
questions to Sirius; since he doesn't, I think we have to take that as 
a sign that he doesn't feel comfortable enough with Sirius to ask 
questions that are so personal for both of them.  

Another avenue he chooses not to take is to look them up in the 
library.  I am trying to trust JKR's artistic integrity and take all 
these points not as plot devices but as true indications of Harry's 
character.  I.e. this is someone who, although he is curious about his 
parents up to a point, decides against reading about their deaths (and 
whatever he might learn about their lives) in The Top Twenty Events of 
the Twentieth Century or what have you.  This is hard for me to relate 
to--I find reading third-person accounts of my family events, some of 
which have unfortunately been the kinds of things that get written up 
in the papers, a very helpful way to assimilate them--but I guess it's 
believable.

Doreen wrote:

>How does Dumbledore know about Harry's scar pain "when Voldemort is 
feeling
>particularly murderous?"  Can anyone quote me the lines where it says 
that
>Harry told him this?

You're right, he doesn't know for sure; it's just a theory.  In GoF he 
knows it hurts when Harry dreams of V in Trelawney's class, and that 
plus the earlier dream make a pattern of it hurting when V is 
torturing or killing someone, and also when he's just talked about 
killing Harry (now that raises a question-AD seems to know more about 
the first dream than Harry actually told Sirius.  All Harry says in 
his letter is that his scar hurt that morning-not "after a dream about 
V" nor "it woke me up").  

Rita wrote:

>I was saddened that FB's section on werewolves says nothing about
>whether lycanthropy is contagious when the werewolf is in human form. 
If
>a human who happens to be a werewolf bites you, do you become a
>werewolf? How about if he just slobbers on you?

Or kisses you deeply for hours and hours? 

IMO, and I don't think this is just wishful thinking ;-), it's only 
contagious when the werewolf is in wolf form.  It seems to fit best 
with the dramatic split between wolf-personality (or rather, 
werewolf-wolf-personality, since true wolves are not very aggressive 
towards humans) and human-personality.  

Gwen's funniest moment:

>"'...Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise 
>will be the first to die!'
>
>'We'll risk it, Sybill,'"

And we can't forget "Tripe, Sybil?" and "They went out into the 
entrance hall, which was completely devoid of mad axe-men."  JKR was 
divinely inspired when she wrote that chapter.

Amy Z

(A sig for Magda:)
--------------------------------------------------
   "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
 Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
   "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
 said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
 "Birds of a feather."
                     -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 08:41:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:41:33 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV erratum
In-Reply-To: <9a9dhf+l717@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a9dvt+p286@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15783

Whoops, forgot to finish a sentence.

>There is nothing dramatic or important to the plot about that 
>particular observation, but it's the way Harry is seeing things, and 
>as such it and comments like it are crucial in creating character. 

AZ




From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se  Mon Apr  2 08:50:23 2001
From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:50:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: FBWFT in first year, was More nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <9a92mj+mave@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104021045360.20547-100000@caliondo.dd.chalmers.se>

No: HPFGUIDX 15784


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> > Forgive me if this has been discussed and I somehow missed it, but 
> > why is Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on Harry's booklist 
> > for his first year?  Isn't it the textbook for Care of Magical 
> > Creatures, which Harry doesn't start until his third year?
> 
>On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Bugg wrote:
> 
> Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them seems to be more of a 
> classroom book. It could have been used as an introducion to magical 
> creatures. After two years of bookwork students are ready to learn 
> how to care for them. 

I think they used it in DADA. We know they learnt about Kappas etc. there.
The book for Care of Magical Creatures was The Monster Book of Monsters.

-- 
// Lea

===================================
f95lean at dd.chalmers.se
http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lean/
===================================





From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  2 10:04:02 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 06:04:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stouffer Article...
Message-ID: <002e01c0bb5c$43c8eac0$bfc84e0c@m3s2j0>

No: HPFGUIDX 15785

Hi Jamieson,this is Witchwanda in Revere,Ma. You brought me up to date on
that person awhile ago because I never heard of her and was totally confused
by that bit of news!  No, never heard of this women or any of her books! She
seems to be out for fast cash!
Witchwanda2002
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamieson <crowswolf at sympatico.ca>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:58 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stouffer Article...


>--heidit at netbox.com wrote:
><snip>
>Penny- something else for us to get VERY pissy with the prats at teh
>times about:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/01/business/01BOOK.html
>Discussion of this article will be on the regular list.
><snip>
>
>I just went and read the article. I actually drew my partners attention to
it, and he has raised an interesting point....one that even I hadn't thought
of before. Go figure.
>
>Perhaps the reason no one has heard of Stouffers books is because they
never existed until now.
>
>I mean, think about it...has ANYONE heard of her? I certainly haven't, and
I read A LOT of childrens fiction. I even took a course with it in
univeristy, and they had some of the most obscure books for children, and
she was nowhere in existence.
>
>And the whole thing with her not coming out with it "until she had a good
enough case to go forward" (I don't know which article this was from, but I
read it somewhere) is a bunch of poopy. She wanted to wait until JK Rowling
had gotten enough exposure, IMO.
>
>But I'm getting away from the topic...state it again, perhaps the reason no
one has heard of Stouffers books is because they never existed until now.
>
>What does everyone else think about that?
>
>Hugs to all,
>Jamieson
>*who, after reading the article, shakes his head wearily, looking at the
picture of Stouffer, and thinks 'wow, she could use a make over'....and
saunters down to stage centre to stand in a spotlight, does a groundshaking
rendition of 'These Boots were made for Walking" and exits stage left
amongst resounding applause.*
>--
>"....dream harder, dream true..."
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Apr  2 11:20:28 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 07:20:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
References: <9a9245+n0it@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c0bb66$ed08a940$a3eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 15786


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bugg 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 1:19 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and the Marauder's Map

  Bugg wrote:
  I have some issues with the Marauder's Map too. The answer to your 
  question may create more questions. Lupin could not have seen the 
  second set of Harry and Hermione because they were not there yet. The 
  first time line did not contain two of each. The Lupin in the second 
  time line may have chosen not to notice. He would have trusted they 
  were there for a reason. 

  Actually there is evidence that the second Harry and Hermione were indeed there during the first "run-through."  The most obvious bit being Harry seeing himself across the lake welcoming back his patronus.  The second bit takes place as the threesome are hiding in an empty chamber after dinner, waiting for the entrance hall to clear so they can go visit Hagrid:
      "They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall and a door slamming."
                  PoA p.327 (Amer.)


  Then later, when Harry and Hermione go back in time and find themselves again in the entrance hall:
      "'In here!'  Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of a broom closet...then slammed the door behind them."
              PoA p.394 (Amer.)

  It seems to me a little more than coincidence. 

  Ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  2 11:20:23 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (wr7238 at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 07:20:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: You have a postcard!
Message-ID: <200104021120.f32BKNL10154@host3.webby.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15787

Confidential! For Penny only!

Witchwanda2002 has sent you a postcard from Aaardvarks Ark Card Shop,
one of the best cardshops on the internet.  When you stop by, make sure
you "bookmark us" and come and visit us again. Also, check out the site
and sign our guestbook.  We hope that you enjoy our site.

You may pick it up from the postbox located at

http://www.aaardvarksark.com/platinum5/magiccard.cgi?0402072023101521

***********
If you are using AOL mail - <a
href="http://www.aaardvarksark.com/platinum5/magiccard.cgi?0402072023101521">just
click here</a>.


 




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr  2 12:30:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 07:30:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission
References: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC870D2.7B4C06B8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15788

Haggridd wrote:

> Regarding Snape:
> Has anyone considered that the only way for Snape to complete his
> mission would be to use polyjuice potion to disguise himself as Barty
> Crouch, Jr.?  There doesn't seem to be any other reason for the author
> to have kept him alive.

Greeting! Interestingly, we've just been discussing this. Great minds,
eh? Rather than rehash everything, I found you some message numbers, if
you want to go tiptoe thru the archives.

Message 15518 poses this very question. Then, skipping responses that
don't add major stuff to the argument, there's
15584 talking about how easy it is to detect Polyjuice;
15586 addressing the main question, and why I don't think it'll fly, on
a couple of levels;
15591 agreeing with me; and
15594 not.

In fact, I meant to respond to 15594, and haven't gotten around to it.

>  Voldemort can detect all lies.

And you think this because....? He's been fooled at least once, in a big
way, by Snape spying.

>  Snape may not, therefore, represent himself as a double-turncoat.
> Voldemort knows Severus's history; he would be caught out.

Unless he can concoct a plausible story. Voldemort is tolerant of those
who have denied him, it seems, when they have denied him as a ruse to
stay free to continue serving him. If Snape can convince Voldemort that,
whatever Snape was doing, it was to Voldemort's ultimate end, I think
he'll be in.

>  He must find a situation where he would be accepted, and not asked
> any embarassing questions.  The Crouch, Jr. scenario satisfies those
> conditions. None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.

Wormtail does. In detail.

> Well I hope that I haven't resurrected some theory already thoroughly
> chewed over.

No, no, we're still chewing this one.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr  2 13:00:37 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:00:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <9a2aib+kv3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC877F5.C3905DC7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15789

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > > Although this is an excellent idea, I have a problem with it.
> Nobody knows that Moody is a polyjuiced Crouch Jr. until that whole
> confession scene, right after Dumbledore, Snape, & McGonagall come
> bustin' in and rescue Harry. After Crouch Jr. finishes talking,
> Dumbledore sends Snape and McGonagall away on errands; Snape goes to
> get Fudge, while McGonagall guards Crouch. < <

> Not quite: Dumbledore tells Snape to get Madame Pomfrey first. We
> don't know how long that took. It's possible that Dumbledore had a
> chance to talk to Snape again after he left the hospital wing and
> before Snape went to get Fudge.

Okay, I looked at the whole sequence again. I'm operating on the theory
that Snape *and* Dumbledore have to be out of the readers' "view," with
their whereabouts unaccounted for, at the same time. They have to have
time to talk together to alter whatever plan they had made, to now
include the knowledge that Crouch Jr. was alive and the idea to use
polyjuice as a long-term disguise.

Snape is out of our eyes the longest--he is sent by Dumbledore to send
Madam Pomfrey down for the real Moody, and then to go out to the
grounds, find Fudge, and bring him to the office where Crouch is, in
case he [Fudge] wants to question Crouch himself. Snape leaves.

But Dumbledore stays in our "vision," taking Harry up to his office and
going over the events of the night with him. Then he & Sirius take Harry
down to the hospital wing. Dumbledore says he'll be back as soon as he
meets with Fudge, but I'm not sure where he went at this point, because
he does not, apparently, head down to the office where Crouch
is---Fudge, McGonagall, and Snape come looking for him in the hospital
wing after the Kiss. Maybe he went to his office for some pensieve time,
but this, to me, is the only unaccounted-for Dumbledore time, and the
only possible candidate for any plan-changing time.

But, after Fudge, McGonagall, and Snape storm up to the wing, in the
argument about the Kiss, it surely sounds like Snape was with Fudge all
the time. Snape is the one who relates Fudge's reaction: "When we told
Mr. Fudge that we had caught the Death Eater responsible for tonight's
events," said Snape in a low voice," he seemed to feel his personal
safety ws in question. He insisted on summoning a dementor to accompany
him into the castle. He brought it up to the office where Barty Crouch
---"

This sounds to me like the summation of someone who heard it firsthand.
So in my interpretation, Snape went to Pomfrey, sent her down to Moody,
went and found Fudge, and went with him and the dementor to see Crouch
Jr. I don't think he'd have taken any time to meet Dumbledore before
he'd carried out Dumbledore's errands.

Fudge's comments also indicate that Snape was with him--"From what
Minerva and Severus have told me, he seems to have thought he was doing
it all on You-Know-Who's instructions!"

Since McGonagall was standing guard over Crouch Jr., and as soon as the
dementor came in the room it Kissed him, and as soon as that happened
she flew into her rage, I doubt she was doing much of the detailing on
this. I think this is another indicator that Snape was with Fudge, and
filled him in before taking him to the office.

So to me, it reads that while Dumbledore was out of our view and
unaccounted for (since he didn't go to meet Fudge), Snape, while not
under our eyes, *was* accounted for--he was with Fudge. So I still don't
think there was any time that Dumbledore and Snape were absent *and*
unaccounted for in the narrative, that would have given them the time to
take the new information--that Crouch Jr. was alive--into account and
change their plan.

> I think that polyjuice will show up again; it's far too useful a plot
> device to be ignored.

Yes, I think it'll show up again. I just don't think it'll be a major
device any time soon; we have to have time to forget about it again.
Right now, it's at the forefront of everyone's mind--the characters,
inside the book, and the readers, outside the book. All of us need to be
distracted from it, before it can be an effective plot device again. So
using it so soon would not be a good move.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr  2 13:04:28 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:04:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought I had about  Dumbledore and Voldemort
References: <9a2c2t+7odb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC878DC.EAF281CB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15790

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> (I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's
> mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a
> Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)

Has JKR said in a chat or someplace that Dumbledore was a Gryffindor?

And the houses are just that, houses at a school. It doesn't dictate all
your social interactions in the future. Intermarrying does happen, and
there can be members of more than one house in one family.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Apr  2 13:42:15 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 13:42:15 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Article...
In-Reply-To: <3AC75CA7.51367741@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9a9vjn+fe8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15791

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> --heidit at n... wrote:
> <snip>
> Penny- something else for us to get VERY pissy with the prats at teh
> times about:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/01/business/01BOOK.html

Was I the only one who thought that (a) the article really was 
MISSING SOMETHING - namely EITHER a quote from someone at Scholastic 
or WB, OR AT LEAST a statement that they had refused to comment? and 
(b) the article seemed unnaturally cut off? 
Also, in the Intellectual Property law bar, the Gone WIth The Wind 
case from last week has been causing a stir - *that* should've been 
the focus of the article, since it's a published book which has been 
enjoined from distribution, and which covers issues of parody and 
free speech, and has *nothing* whatsoever to do with the alleged 
issues that Stouffer is bringing up - which involve, specifically, 
access to copyrighted works and things like trademark abandonment 
(generally, as a matter of law, nonuse for *7* years is more than 
what's necessary for a mark to've been abandoned). 

Also, on the Things In Article Which Are Flat Out Wrong front, 
Stouffer doesn't have a registration for her marks - (1) she has 2 
pending applications which have been given preliminary refusals due 
to likelihood of confusion with other, registered marks; (2) Stouffer 
may be accusing the other parties of selling goods with the term 
MUGGLES on them - but, um, they AREN'T!

Jamison wrote 
> I mean, think about it...has ANYONE heard of her? I certainly 
> haven't, and I read A LOT of childrens fiction. I even took a 
> course with it in univeristy, and they had some of the most obscure 
> books for children, and she was nowhere in existence.

That's because it seems, as indicated in the articles, that they're 
not "books" of the kind one reads - they're activity books, with 
things to color in. The kind of junk they sell at drugstores & gas 
stations which people pick up before VERY VERY long car trips to 
throw into the back seat at cranky children in hopes that something, 
ANYTHING, will get them to stop throwing things at each other. 


Someone else asked, who sued who? WB & Scholastic & I think JKR too 
sued Stouffer in NYC in November, 1999 in what's called a 
Declaractory Judgment suit - they want the court to *declare* that 
they aren't infringing. She then sued them in Pennsylvania (case 
dismissed) AND filed counterclaims in the NYC case, so at this point, 
yes, she *is* suing them, but they *did* sue her first. 





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 13:44:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 13:44:09 -0000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about  Dumbledore and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3AC878DC.EAF281CB@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9a9vn9+ovp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15792

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > (I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's
> > mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a
> > Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)
> 
> Has JKR said in a chat or someplace that Dumbledore was a 
Gryffindor?
> 
> And the houses are just that, houses at a school. It doesn't 
dictate all
> your social interactions in the future. Intermarrying does happen, 
and
> there can be members of more than one house in one family.
> 
> --Amanda

I had thought that I had read that Dumbledore was Head of Gryffindor 
before he became Headmaster (in CoS I think) but I could be wrong, as 
I can't find the reference now.  Can anyone else? (before I start to 
think I'm going mad!).
I also realise that I assumed this because of the loyalty Harry shows 
Dumbledore in the CoS brought him Fawkes and the sorting hat - not 
thinking that Harry was able to pull the sword out of the hat because 
he is a Gryffindor, not just loyal to Dumbledore.  My mistake!
Catherine




From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 13:44:25 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 13:44:25 -0000
Subject: M&S chocolate frog cards
In-Reply-To: <9a835c+jkqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a9vnp+9rfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15793

here goes the 8 cards are...
hedwig
gringotts
hogwarts castle
hogwarts badges (gryfindor and slytherin)
norbert
scabbers
mrs norris
fluffy
i'm just glad i have four children to eat the frogs with or i would 
soon be being "rescued" by jerry springer from my house.
regards Niamh
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nick Mitchell" <NicMitUK at a...> wrote:
> Oh I am stupid - must read the box more closely...
> 
> There are 8 different cards... can someone with all 8, post what 
they 
> are, thanks.
> 
> Must go shopping at M&S tomorrow to get some more Chocolate Frogs - 
> I've only got 2 cards so far.
> 
> Nick




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 14:08:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 14:08:14 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <3AC870D2.7B4C06B8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9aa14e+amvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15794

Haggridd wrote:

> >  He must find a situation where he would be accepted, and not 
asked
> > any embarassing questions.  The Crouch, Jr. scenario satisfies 
those
> > conditions. None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.

Amanda wrote:

> Wormtail does. In detail.

I think Haggridd meant his fate at the end of GoF, not his fate over 
the previous 12-odd years.  No one in V's camp knows he's been found 
out by Dumbledore, forced to tell the story, and Kissed--unless 
there's a spy at Hogwarts. (cue ominous music)

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 14:14:36 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 14:14:36 -0000
Subject: (Almost) evidence AD was in Gryffindor
In-Reply-To: <9a9vn9+ovp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aa1gc+pnh1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15795

Amanda:
> > 
> > Has JKR said in a chat or someplace that Dumbledore was a 
> Gryffindor?
> > 

It comes up on the train in PS/SS.  Hermione, rattling on about what 
house she'd like to be in, says she's heard Dumbledore himself was in 
Gryffindor (a fact that doesn't seem to cheer up the fated Gryffindor 
Ron).  She could be misinformed.

Catherine:

> I had thought that I had read that Dumbledore was Head of Gryffindor 
> before he became Headmaster (in CoS I think) but I could be wrong, 
as 
> I can't find the reference now.  

This I don't recall.  Maybe you're thinking that because in CoS we 
learn he was the Transfiguration professor in Riddle's time, so you're 
making the association with McGonagall?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville.  "I don't think
 you should be breaking any more rules!  And you were the one
 who told me to stand up to people!"
   "Yes, but not to =us=," said Ron in exasperation.
                             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  2 14:25:35 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 14:25:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <006801c0bb37$7e6c5c40$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9aa24v+v5vh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15796

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> I'm not sure if this polyjuice potion thing could work.  
> After all, one needs something (ie hair) from the person in order 
for the polyjuice potion to work.  I agree that that sending Snape as 
Barty jr. would probably be the best cover, but can you make 
polyjuice potion from a dead person?

A kiss-victim, despite having their soul sucked out, is still alive 
at some level, if only an elementary biological one. Is that 
sufficient for Polyjuice purposes?  Time will tell.

   - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  2 15:05:09 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:05:09 -0000
Subject: Three (filk)
Message-ID: <9aa4f5+10r1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15797

Three  (From GoF, Ch. 14)

(To the tune of One, From A Chorus Line)

Dedicated to Ebony

(The Scene: Professor's MOODY'S classroom. He is introducing the 
topic of the Unforgivable Curses to a classroom of Gryffindor 
students)

MOODY
Three 
Curses Unforgiven 
Ev'ry single time they're cast
One 
Life sentence is given 
To get you to Azkaban fast
One solitary Dementor keeps guard on you
When we think that you've been an agent for You-Know-Who

One
Curse of will will rob you
You can't act on your own accord 
And the curse that's second's stored
With plain pain
The third 
Is one that's sure to chill ya 
It's the one they use to kill ya
Then
..you're...done!

CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS
One 
Encyclopedic Auror 
Knows magic chapter and verse
Three 
Hexes he has shown us 
That can't be any worse

The things he showed in class shocked us through and through 
He saw it all in his battles with You-Know-Who

Won 
The struggle for us last time
Let's hope he helps fight the next
Dark wizards get highly vexed
When Aurors roar!
When you 
See the spiders dancing
Just start Constant Vigilancing
Trust....no...one!

   - CMC





From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 15:35:46 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:35:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's mission
Message-ID: <F183iKjJiW9EdZrr34E00007af0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15798



>
>A kiss-victim, despite having their soul sucked out, is still alive
>at some level, if only an elementary biological one. Is that
>sufficient for Polyjuice purposes?  Time will tell.




I always thought that Polyjuice turned you into the person that they were at 
that moment.  So if Snape was to use the Polyjuice and turn into  crouch jr 
now, he would turn into the soul less shell....  It makes sense, just like 
if you turned yourself into Dumbledore, you would turn into Dumbledore as he 
is now, not as he was 25 years ago...

I also agree with whoever it was that said that Polyjuice is used up as a 
plot device... It seems to me that JK will come up with a new way to decive 
us, everyone will be looking for Polyjuice now.

-Rachel-
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 15:45:20 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:45:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Feeling his pain
Message-ID: <F128lKy8VBDUfdfdhNz000080a1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15799




>>
>How does Dumbledore know about Harry's scar pain "when Voldemort is feeling
>particularly murderous>Doreen
>******************
>

Along the same lines of topic... does anyone else remember how in PS/SS 
Dumbledore said that scars come in handy or something of the like?  Perhaps 
this is more forshadowing on the authors part.

Does anyone else wonder how these kids are going to go to school next year 
with a giant wizard war ensueing?  And how is Harry going to be protected 24 
hours a day?  Also, everyone says that Dumbledore is the greatest wizard 
ever, i really want Harry to be able to see him in action, not just these 
parlor tricks....

-Rachel-
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 16:20:39 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (john kusalavage)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010402100224.00a101d0@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <20010402162039.88182.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15801

Please see what I have said concerning this matter in
my post "Snape's Mission".  I have a different
perspective on it from you. Thanks.

Haggridd 
--- zora_djevojka at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> 
>  > I've been thinking about the comments many list
> members made on the
>  > exact nature of the Snape's task. I believe
> [primarily for the
>  > reasons Amanda and Koinonia gave] that he
> returned to Voldemort as
>  > himself, and that he placed  himself in some
> danger by doing so.
> 
> 
> Magda wrote:
> 
> >I think that's an understatement; he's been close
> to Dumbledore for
> >twelve years, V. obviously knows he's gone and
> declares he must be
> >killed.  There are just too many people around who
> know where he's
> >been.  Going back to V. means he's dragon kibble in
> very short order.
> >
> >And look at it from V's point of view.  He's got to
> make an example
> >of somebody so the other DE's get the message. 
> What better way to do
> >it than by torturing Snape?
> 
> In the second part of my original post I tried to
> convey an idea [but 
> obviously not very well, sorry] that Snape was in
> fact still a Voldemort's 
> agent when he originally became a spy for Dumbledore
> [what is the term for 
> that-- a double/triple agent??]. So, even if he did
> have a true  change of 
> heart before Voldemort's downfall [and warned
> Dumbledore about the Potters, 
> for instance], he could still return to the DE
> assembly and say something 
> like: "Master, our plan worked, the trusting old
> fool has taken me into his 
> confidence."
> That could explain, IMVHO,  why Dumbledore vouched
> for Snape during the 
> trials, and why Voldemort interprets Snape's absence
> as merely cowardice.
> Granted, Snape still has some explaining to do about
> the Philosopher's 
> Stone incident and a couple Cruciatus curses will
> probably be headed his way.
> 
> Hopefully I've managed to make my thoughts
> intelligible this time :)
> 
> Vlatka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From heymynameisabird at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 16:31:03 2001
From: heymynameisabird at hotmail.com (Helen N)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:31:03 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Funniest stuff
Message-ID: <LAW2-F17gZIz4opHM9B0000a482@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15802



Trina: My favorite scenes are as follows:

In P/SS when HH&R are in the Devil's Snare.  Hermione freaking
out, "But there isn't any wood!"  And Ron's outraged reply, "HAVE YOU
GONE MAD! ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"  Makes me giggle every time I read
it and if they change it in any way in the movie, you will all be
able to hear my outraged scream of horror!

I love that scene too! And my other favourite is the really corny one at the 
end of PS/SS when they win the house cup - but it's not because of HH&R, 
it's because of Neville....
"It take's a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies" Said 
Dumbledore, smiling "but just as much to stand up to our friends. I 
therefore award ten points to Mr Neville Longbottom."
I'm a sucker for happy endings, and I love Neville, so it's great that he 
gets to win it for them all!


Helen
_________________________________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 16:32:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:32:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newbie Introduction
References: <9a7bte+7q80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015201c0bb92$7dea4ba0$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15803

Sorry ... good try ... E for effort ... but John got to us first.

Ever-Analytical Doreen

----- Original Message -----
From: <joanne_rowling2001 at yahoo.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 8:53 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newbie Introduction


Hello


I have been talking to several authors recently and found out that
being able to discuss a series of books directly with the fans
provides an invaluable resource. As you may have noted the most
recent of the series, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, had a
small mistake in it and hopefully by being here to talk with adult
fans, such as yourselves, similar mistakes will not crop up in the
future.


I guess most of you already know a lot about me. If not there are
several good websites available with a biography of my life.


--Joanne



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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 16:36:35 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:36:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <F183iKjJiW9EdZrr34E00007af0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9aa9qj+9qkf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15804

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Taylor" <LavenderChic at h...> wrote:
> 
> I also agree with whoever it was that said that Polyjuice is used 
up as a 
> plot device... It seems to me that JK will come up with a new way 
to decive 
> us, everyone will be looking for Polyjuice now.


I want JK to deceive us.  I don't want to see the Polyjuice used so 
soon.  Especially where Snape is concerned.  I want to see *Snape* in 
action as *himself*, not pretending to be someone else. 

I just don't see how Snape and Dumbledore had time to change their 
plans.  There was no time.  How long would it even take to make 
Polyjuice Potion?  Whatever it was that Dumbledore asked Snape to do, 
Snape was ready at that moment.  He wasn't going off to the dungeons 
to prepare Polyjuice, at least not in my opinion.  Also, I have a 
feeling that whatever plan Dumbledore and Snape came up with, it was 
better than using Polyjuice.

I am sure we will see the potion again.  Dumbledore  refers to it as 
simple and brilliant.  I just hope we don't see it any time soon.

Koinonia  





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 16:44:26 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:44:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Funniest stuff (and hi) and H/G
References: <9a8aes+6rna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017601c0bb94$2ec6ac60$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15805


Chris wrote:

Hi, 
this is my first ever post to a discussion group despite the fact 
that I have lurked on many.  For a long time I believed that joining 
a group as a posting member involved wrestling with a troll, I am 
relieved to find that this is not the case (it isn't is it ?).
###########
Doreen wrote:
You obviously have not met our resident troll, John.
:))
##########





From margdean at erols.com  Mon Apr  2 16:09:44 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:09:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's mission
References: <F183iKjJiW9EdZrr34E00007af0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AC8A448.DD4C914C@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15806

Rachel Taylor wrote:

> >A kiss-victim, despite having their soul sucked out, is still alive
> >at some level, if only an elementary biological one. Is that
> >sufficient for Polyjuice purposes?  Time will tell.
> 
> I always thought that Polyjuice turned you into the person that they were at
> that moment.  So if Snape was to use the Polyjuice and turn into  crouch jr
> now, he would turn into the soul less shell....  It makes sense, just like
> if you turned yourself into Dumbledore, you would turn into Dumbledore as he
> is now, not as he was 25 years ago...

Wouldn't that have meant Harry and Ron turning into an
unconscious, potion-drugged Crabbe and Goyle?  Or Barty Jr.
turning into an unconscious Moody, for that matter.  At the very
least, there has to be some wiggle room, temporally.
 
> I also agree with whoever it was that said that Polyjuice is used up as a
> plot device... It seems to me that JK will come up with a new way to decive
> us, everyone will be looking for Polyjuice now.

That, I agree with.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr  2 16:56:38 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:56:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's mission
References: <9aa9qj+9qkf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC8AF46.3D42285@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15807

koinonia02 at yahoo.com wrote:

> I want JK to deceive us.  I don't want to see the Polyjuice used so
> soon.  Especially where Snape is concerned.  I want to see *Snape* in
> action as *himself*, not pretending to be someone else.

Yes! Me too.

> I just don't see how Snape and Dumbledore had time to change their
> plans.  There was no time.  How long would it even take to make
> Polyjuice Potion?

This is the best argument for there being no grounds for the
"Impersonate Crouch" theory. It took Hermione a month to make the
Polyjuice Potion. The bits of the other person are added just at the
end, so I'm presuming that for a long-term gig like Crouch Jr. did, you
have a cauldron of "ready to add the last ingredient" simmering and
ready. There's no way that Snape and Dumbledore would have had time to
make the potion, once they realized Crouch was alive.

>  Whatever it was that Dumbledore asked Snape to do, Snape was ready at
> that moment. He wasn't going off to the dungeons to prepare Polyjuice,
> at least not in my opinion.

Mine either. Again, this is the best argument so far against Snape's
using polyjuice to be Crouch. My anal, detailed timelines included.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 17:03:42 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:03:42 -0000
Subject: Godric's Hollow -- Name / Other orphans
Message-ID: <9aabde+10dd2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15808

Following the Mrs. Figg conversation, I picked up SS and started 
reading, and of course, find myself now in the middle of CH. 10 of 
PoA...  As I read this time I find myself noticing connections in the 
naming of people I've never noticed before, always on the lookout for 
another Mrs. Figg I guess.  Two things I noticed:

1)I just relized that Godric's Hollow is probably named for Godric 
Gryffindor.  Could Godric's Hollow not be a town, like Hogsmede, but 
a place where Gryffindor's go for protection?

2)I SS, when Hagrid first arrives on the island and tells Harry the 
brief version of Harry's Bio; Hagrid mentions several other families 
who were murdered by Vold./DEs.  One such family is the Bones'(p. 56, 
Amer. pbk), later we see a Susan Bones (p. 119) sorted into 
Hufflepuff (in Harry's year).  If she's from the same family, that 
means there are others, like Harry and Neville, at Hogwarts who come 
from families destroyed by The Dark Lord.  Do we ever see this girl 
again?  (I didn't catch her in CoS or PoA so far.)  Has anybody 
noticed any other kids who might be in a similar situation to Harry 
and Neville?

If you've already talked about this stuff, just point me to the 
archive...
Stephanie






From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 17:12:34 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:12:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
References: <20010401233422.23179.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <017e01c0bb98$1c8e8820$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15809

Here's a challenge: what OTHER task is it possible for Snape to
undertake that does NOT include going back to V?

##################

MY idea >>>>> Is it possible that Snape's task is not to go to Voldemort,
but rather has something to do with Azkaban?

Sirius is taking on the task of alerting the "old crowd"
Molly, Arthur, Bill, and *probably Percy Weasley, IMO* will take care of any
problems in the MOM.
Hagrid and Madam Maxime are setting off to speak to the Giants.

The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. Voldemort has been
underestimating Harry and Dumbledore up to now. I think that is soon to end.
I think he is going to be ever vigilant from now on.

Snape is no fool. I do not think that he would attempt to fool Voldemort
with any disguise or weak story of "playing spy for him for twelve years,
rather than looking for him to help him."

>>>>MY IDEA IS >>>> Snape has some sort of task which involves the Dementors
and those prisoners which are being held there in Azkaban. I believe that
Dumbledore is getting all of his ducks in line. In order to defeat
Voldemort, the smartest strategy would be to weaken him by first attacking
and defeating Voldemort's allies.... either defeating them or rendering them
powerless or at the very least, less powerful.

I am wondering in what capacity Snape is going to approach Azkaban....
Would it be possible for him to trade places with Barty Crouch Jr.? Crouch
is "worse than dead" (GoF) but not dead.  Did it say in GoF what happened to
Crouch's body *after the kiss*? Is it possible that Snape would have time to
change places with Crouch *before* the Dementors drag him off to Azkaban?
Once inside Azkaban, as Crouch... shortly before Voldemort descends on
Azkaban to *release his loyal followers*... would Snape then be able to be
more convincing as Crouch Jr.?<<<<<

I love these books ... so many ideas to toss around til book five!!
Doreen







From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Mon Apr  2 17:22:59 2001
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:22:59 -0000
Subject: More nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <9a92mj+mave@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aachj+l21f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15810

 
> Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them seems to be more of a 
> classroom book. It could have been used as an introducion to 
magical 
> creatures. After two years of bookwork students are ready to learn 
> how to care for them. 
> 
> Bugg

And then Hagrid put them to the real test by having them buy Monster 
Book of Monsters. How many people besides me would be heading out to 
buy that book, if we got the chance.
It was not only a classroom book, but it was mentioned to be a book 
owned by most wizarding households. I gues they used it at Hogwats 
and kept them close by afterwards.
~ Circe (off to lurk some more, and draw more of the beasts)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 17:28:56 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:28:56 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <20010402162039.88182.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9aacso+dpot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15811

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., john kusalavage <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Please see what I have said concerning this matter in
> my post "Snape's Mission".  I have a different
> perspective on it from you. Thanks.
> 
> Haggridd 
> --- zora_djevojka at y... wrote:
> > 
> > I wrote:
> > 
> >  > I've been thinking about the comments many list
> > members made on the
> >  > exact nature of the Snape's task. I believe
> > [primarily for the
> >  > reasons Amanda and Koinonia gave] that he
> > returned to Voldemort as
> >  > himself, and that he placed  himself in some
> > danger by doing so.
> > 
I've already gone through this is a previous mail, as well, but can't 
find it, so here goes again.  I agree with you - it is most likely 
that Snape returned to Voldemort as himself, and bearing in mind the 
comments Barty Crouch (as Moody) made to Harry, is seems clear that 
Karkarof is the DE who has left for ever. (Crouch says that Voldy 
will track him down and kill him, as he is merciless to his enemies.)
That means that Snape is most likely candidate for the one who is too 
cowardly to return.  

The main problem with this seems to be Snape's role in PS/SS when he 
stops Quirrel from killing Harry.  However, there is no indication 
from Quirrel that he thought Snape knew of his connection with 
Voldemort, only that he was trying to prevent Quirrel from stealing 
the Philosopher's Stone.  (Unless I have missed something, yet again, 
in rereading).

Anyway, as I've said before, Snape can easily explain his tardiness 
to Voldemort, because he can't apparate and disapparate inside the 
castle.  Therefore the delay is natural - he has to get away from the 
Tournament and the school grounds first.  Or, he could say that he 
got caught up in what happened on Harry's return and could report 
back to Voldemort on Crouch (although this could be dangerous - 
shooting the messenger and all).

I still don't think that it is out of the  question that Snape went 
to Voldemort that night.  It is possible that Voldy knew that 
Dumbledore was going to vouch for Snape when the Death Eaters were 
originally being rounded up - Voldy may have thought that Snape was 
spying for him, and that Dumbledore had fallen for it enough to trust 
Snape.  The coward remark could be to do with the fact that Voldy 
thinks that Snape is too cowardly to betray Dumbledore and start 
spying for Voldy again.

I don't want to believe that Snape is going to end up a supporter of 
Voldemort.  In my experience, it is often the most unlikely people 
who do the most heroic things, and with that in mind I would be very 
surprised if Snape doesn't have an important, heroic role in 
Voldemort's ultimate downfall.

Catherine 
> _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 17:31:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:31:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission
References: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com> <006801c0bb37$7e6c5c40$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <019801c0bb9a$c7b41740$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15812


Starling wrote:

I'm not sure if this polyjuice potion thing could work.
After all, one needs something (ie hair) from the person in order for the
polyjuice potion to work.  I agree that that sending Snape as Barty jr.
would probably be the best cover, but can you make polyjuice potion from a
dead person?
**************
Doreen wrote:
GoF chapter 36 "Harry felt a chill in his stomach as Professor McGonagall
struggled to find words to describe what had happened. He did not need her
to finish her sentence. He knew what the dementor must have done. It had
administered its fatal kiss to Barty Crouch. It had sucked his soul out
through his mouth. He was worse than dead."
*******  "worse than dead" ... but *not* dead.
Also, I just noticed ... "He knew what the dementor *must have done*
Hmmmmmm ... *must have done* .... but not definitely done.... Is this
another JKR mind trap? Have we all just assumed on the basis of Harry
thinking that it *must have done* ???

Is there any reference that states *exactly* what happened to Barty Crouch
Jr.? Is there any reference to what happened to his soul-less body *if* the
dementor, indeed, did suck out his soul? In other mentions of the dementors,
JKR has them dragging the body happily off to Azkaban. I am still looking
for what happened to Crouch's body ... perhaps I shall find it and answer my
own question ... perhaps not.

Doreen
************




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 17:50:50 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:50:50 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <017e01c0bb98$1c8e8820$1e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9aae5q+9uhf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15813

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> Molly, Arthur, Bill, and *probably Percy Weasley, IMO* will take 
care of any
> problems in the MOM.
> Hagrid and Madam Maxime are setting off to speak to the Giants.


I see Arthur taking care of problems in the MoM, but I see Bill and 
Charlie helping in their areas of expertise.  Charlie works with 
dragons and Bill is in Egypt.  Percy will.....well, who knows?



> 
> The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. > 


That doesn't mean it is the only group left.  Voldemort is going to 
open up Azkaban and get the dementors to join him.  He is going to 
recall the banished giants.  "I shall have all my devoted servants 
returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear...." Is 
the 'army of creatures' only the dementors and giants?  In my opinion 
we are going to see 'creatures' we haven't seen yet.  Voldemort spent 
many years traveling far and wide in his search for immortality.  I 
believe he has more up his sleeve then just dementors and giants.

  
> Snape is no fool. I do not think that he would attempt to fool 
Voldemort
> with any disguise or weak story of "playing spy for him for twelve 
years,
> rather than looking for him to help him."


I guess it's possible for Snape to go back to V. and get in V's good 
graces.  I think Snape is the one who Voldemort *believes* has left  
forever.  That statement leaves me to believe Voldemort has left an 
opening for this servant to come back.  If anyone can do it, surely 
it would be Snape.  I wouldn't mind seeing Snape working as a spy 
again but I just don't see that happening.  I am going to trust JK to 
make Snape's job very exciting, dangerous, and something none of us 
have thought about yet.


 
> >>>>MY IDEA IS >>>> Snape has some sort of task which involves the 
Dementors
> and those prisoners which are being held there in Azkaban.


I get the impression that Dumbledore knows that Voldemort's most 
faithful followers in Azkaban are going to remain just that:  
faithful to Voldemort.

  
 
> Dumbledore is getting all of his ducks in line. In order to defeat
> Voldemort, the smartest strategy would be to weaken him by first 
attacking
> and defeating Voldemort's allies.... either defeating them or 
rendering them
> powerless or at the very least, less powerful.



I think that is exactly what Dumbledore is doing.  But I think we are 
just touching the tip of the iceberg with the giants and dementors.

  
 
> I am wondering in what capacity Snape is going to approach 
Azkaban....
> Would it be possible for him to trade places with Barty Crouch Jr.? 


I guess I just don't see what Snape could accomplish as Barty Crouch 
Jr.  There would surely be no way that Snape could masquarade as Jr. 
and continue to teach at Hogwarts.  Also, Fudge knows about the fate 
of Barty Crouch Jr.  I think we are glossing over that fact.  Don't 
forget about what Fudge knows.  Dumbledore does not seem very 
trusting of Fudge.  Would Dumbledore take the chance of having Snape 
walk around as Crouch when no one knows what Fudge will do?  It would 
surely get back to Fudge that Jr. was walking around.  Fudge would 
know it couldn't be Jr.  At this point we are not even sure which 
side Fudge is on.


> I love these books ... so many ideas to toss around til book five!!
> Doreen


Me, too!  So many ideas - it seems strange that we are reading the 
same books but each of us see things in a different way.  

Koinonia




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr  2 17:58:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:58:41 -0500
Subject: Goblins (was Snape's Task)
References: <9aae5q+9uhf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC8BDD0.80AB4D8A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15814

koinonia02 at yahoo.com wrote:

> > The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. >
>
> That doesn't mean it is the only group left.  Voldemort is going to
> open up Azkaban and get the dementors to join him.  He is going to
> recall the banished giants.  "I shall have all my devoted servants
> returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear...." Is the
> 'army of creatures' only the dementors and giants?  In my opinion we
> are going to see 'creatures' we haven't seen yet.  Voldemort spent
> many years traveling far and wide in his search for immortality.  I
> believe he has more up his sleeve then just dementors and giants.

What about the goblins? I'm so disappointed that nobody commented on my
brilliant and profound insights about third parties bringing about
Voldemort's downfall and how we have all been quietly conditioned by the
device of Professor Binns to think of goblin wars and goblins as a
danger as a Thing of The Past. I still think that if Voldemort courts
the goblins, he can wreak havoc on the wizarding world
economically--they control all the gold in the only bank we've heard of.

--Amanda, taking credit for her husband's thought about the goblins
maybe being the agents of Voldemort's destruction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 18:12:43 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:12:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <9aacso+dpot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aafer+c6o0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15815

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
 I agree with you - it is most likely 
> that Snape returned to Voldemort as himself, and bearing in mind 
the 
> comments Barty Crouch (as Moody) made to Harry, is seems clear that 
> Karkarof is the DE who has left for ever. (Crouch says that Voldy 
> will track him down and kill him, as he is merciless to his 
enemies.)
> That means that Snape is most likely candidate for the one who is 
too 
> cowardly to return.


It would seem from Snape's comments that it is Karkaroff who is the 
coward.  "Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight?....He betrayed too 
many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the 
fold."  Karkaroff was always following Snape around during the school 
year, asking for advice.  He is a coward and I think Voldemort knows 
that.  It doesn't appear, though, that Voldemort is out to kill the 
coward.  Just make him suffer a bit.  

It is my understanding that JK identified Snape as the one to be 
killed in a reading she did in Canada.  I have never actually read, 
word for word, everything that went on at that reading.  That is why 
I hesitate to bring this up.  I noticed someone else mentioned this 
in an old message.  Supposedly JK said not to worry, Snape was 
tough.  Unless we can find someone who was actually there to verify 
this is true, I would just file this little bit of info as a rumor. 
That said, I don't usually pay any attention to rumors!


  
> I don't want to believe that Snape is going to end up a supporter 
of 
> Voldemort


I don't want to believe that either.  JK has said each character is 
going to have to make a choice.  I just wonder if Snape will again be 
tempted by the dark side.  I seriously doubt it.  

Koinonia




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 18:15:42 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:15:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission
References: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com> <3AC870D2.7B4C06B8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <01d201c0bba0$ee9b71e0$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15816

>  He must find a situation where he would be accepted, and not asked
> any embarassing questions.  The Crouch, Jr. scenario satisfies those
> conditions. None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.

Wormtail does. In detail.

******************
I must have slept through this one ... help!
How does Wormtail know Crouch, Jr.'s fate?
Doreen
*****************






From williamhause2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 18:19:35 2001
From: williamhause2000 at yahoo.com (williamhause2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:19:35 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
In-Reply-To: <001601c0bb66$ed08a940$a3eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9aafrn+isr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15817

I think with 300 or more people running around that map, Lupin just 
didn't notice them.

-Billy

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Bugg 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 1:19 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
> 
>   Bugg wrote:
>   I have some issues with the Marauder's Map too. The answer to 
your 
>   question may create more questions. Lupin could not have seen the 
>   second set of Harry and Hermione because they were not there yet. 
The 
>   first time line did not contain two of each. The Lupin in the 
second 
>   time line may have chosen not to notice. He would have trusted 
they 
>   were there for a reason. 
> 
>   Actually there is evidence that the second Harry and Hermione 
were indeed there during the first "run-through."  The most obvious 
bit being Harry seeing himself across the lake welcoming back his 
patronus.  The second bit takes place as the threesome are hiding in 
an empty chamber after dinner, waiting for the entrance hall to clear 
so they can go visit Hagrid:
>       "They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall 
and a door slamming."
>                   PoA p.327 (Amer.)
> 
> 
>   Then later, when Harry and Hermione go back in time and find 
themselves again in the entrance hall:
>       "'In here!'  Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him 
across the hall to the door of a broom closet...then slammed the door 
behind them."
>               PoA p.394 (Amer.)
> 
>   It seems to me a little more than coincidence. 
> 
>   Ender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 18:21:06 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:21:06 -0000
Subject: Goblins (was Snape's Task)
In-Reply-To: <3AC8BDD0.80AB4D8A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9aafui+gvpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15818

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> What about the goblins? I'm so disappointed that nobody commented 
on my
> brilliant and profound insights about third parties bringing about
> Voldemort's downfall > 
> --Amanda, taking credit for her husband's thought about the goblins
> maybe being the agents of Voldemort's destruction


I did intend to comment on that very important theory.  This is the 
first day in quite a while that I have any free time.

I did read previous posts about whether Harry will kill Voldemort if 
given the opportunity.  I do believe JK will make some political 
point on this but I am not going to get into that.

I can definitely see Voldemort's destruction coming about by a third 
party or from within.  I do believe we are going to see the goblins 
come into play.  They do seem to be a rather violent group.  Is 
anyone/any creature going to be able to remain neutral in this 
battle?  Does not Voldemort's plans affect everyone:  human, beast, 
and creature? 

Koinonia 





From OldTownLtd at aol.com  Mon Apr  2 18:27:42 2001
From: OldTownLtd at aol.com (OldTownLtd at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:27:42 EDT
Subject: M & S and Choc Frogs
Message-ID: <d0.13c2f98a.27fa1e9e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15819

I must be behind on this thread. Is M & S a store in the UK or the 
manufacturer?  Is there any way someone in the US can order some of these 
cards? What do they look like? I am picturing something like baseball 
collector cards but surely the frogs aren't flat like the bubble gum that 
comes with baseball cards so I must be wrong.  How much do they cost? 

Debra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 18:32:32 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:32:32 -0000
Subject: Name / Other orphans/Families Destroyed
In-Reply-To: <9aabde+10dd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aagk0+tv4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15820

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:

 Hagrid mentions several other families 
> who were murdered by Vold./DEs.  One such family is the Bones'(p. 
56, 
> Amer. pbk), later we see a Susan Bones (p. 119) sorted into 
> Hufflepuff (in Harry's year).  If she's from the same family, that 
> means there are others, like Harry and Neville, at Hogwarts who 
come 
> from families destroyed by The Dark Lord.  


When Dumbledore is addressing the students and staff, he mentions 
that some in the Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of 
Voldemort.  Families have been torn asunder.  I don't believe 
Dumbledore was just referring to students and their families.  I 
believe there are teachers that have suffered and had their families 
taken from them.  We now know that some of the professors have been 
married. Who is to say they didn't lose their spouses during V's 
first reign?  The question now is which professors were married?

Koinonia

 




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr  2 18:36:39 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 18:36:39 -0000
Subject: John is a bad, bad boy
Message-ID: <9aagrn+619a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15821

Was I the only one struck by the irony of this statement in John's 
last post:

>Let's all take a bit of a chill pill and remember that if we're 
going to be sending an email, we should check it...[snip]...for 
possible misconstruances, mistaken meanings etc. 


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  2 18:45:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:45:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <9a2aib+kv3k@eGroups.com> <3AC877F5.C3905DC7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <01d801c0bba5$1aeb4c80$1e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15822

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> I think that polyjuice will show up again; it's far too useful a plot
> device to be ignored.
<big chunks of stuff snipped>
*********************************
>>>>>>IMO We have working together, two of the most powerful characters in
the book, Dumbledore and Snape. (not trying to slight Sirius, but he is off
doing his thing)

Severus Snape, Potions Master and ex-Death Eater, which gives him much
knowledge of Voldemort and his strengths, as well as his weaknesses. And,
IMHO, his following around the Marauders but no mention of Snape ever being
an animagi, has been downplayed. (has this ever been considered?)

Albus Dumbeldore, "widely considered to be the greatest wizard of the
current age, famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for
discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, (and btw ... what *are* the
twelve uses of dragon's blood? Is this something that we will find out in
5,6, &7?) and for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas Flamel."

>>>>IMO Between the alchemy and the potions knowledge, could it be possible
that the two of them come up with a potion that is not temporary, like the
polyjuice potion is? Or a potion or spell that allows Snape to trade places
with Nagini, sort of in the way that people trade places using a portkey?

>>>>Nagini has slunk sort of into the background, now that it is no longer
necessary to milk it to keep Voldemort alive ... Would Voldemort pay any
attention to Nagini slithering in and out of the camp? Or whether or not it
was really Nagini or Severus Snake?>>>>>>>>>>

Doreen, whose mind works overtime some days.
******************************************************





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 19:25:05 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:25:05 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission
Message-ID: <9aajmh+a33u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15823

Irrespective of the relative desirability of polyjuice potion as a 
plot device, I think that it is plausible that Crouch, Jr. had stocks 
of the precursors of the potion ready for the final step: in his
case, 
the addition of Mad-Eye's hair.  Could Dumbledore and Snape not make 
use of these prepared stocks in order to quickly turn Snape into 
Crouch, Jr.?  If anyone has a plot device that can get around 
Voldemort's ability to detect any lies, I would happily accept
another mechanism for Snape's mission

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 19:39:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:39:03 -0000
Subject: Goblins (was Snape's Task)
In-Reply-To: <3AC8BDD0.80AB4D8A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9aakgn+sgb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15824

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> 
> > > The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. >
> >
> > That doesn't mean it is the only group left.  Voldemort is going 
to
> > open up Azkaban and get the dementors to join him.  He is going to
> > recall the banished giants.  "I shall have all my devoted servants
> > returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear...." Is the
> > 'army of creatures' only the dementors and giants?  In my opinion 
we
> > are going to see 'creatures' we haven't seen yet.  Voldemort spent
> > many years traveling far and wide in his search for immortality.  
I
> > believe he has more up his sleeve then just dementors and giants.
> 
> What about the goblins? I'm so disappointed that nobody commented 
on my
> brilliant and profound insights about third parties bringing about
> Voldemort's downfall and how we have all been quietly conditioned 
by the
> device of Professor Binns to think of goblin wars and goblins as a
> danger as a Thing of The Past. I still think that if Voldemort 
courts
> the goblins, he can wreak havoc on the wizarding world
> economically--they control all the gold in the only bank we've 
heard of.
> 
> --Amanda, taking credit for her husband's thought about the goblins
> maybe being the agents of Voldemort's destruction
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amanda, I did think about your goblin comments, and forgot to mail a 
reply.  I wanted to differentiate between goblin "wars" - the way 
everyone has been descibing them in mails, and goblin "rebellions" 
which is how Professor Binns describes them and how they are taught 
at Hogwarts.
I agree, we don't know whether they are now an autonomous third 
party, because we don't know the outcome of the rebellions, but it 
seems that by the mere fact of them being rebellions, the goblins 
used to be under some kind of control of the Wizarding community and 
the MoM (or whatever came before it - can't remember) and tried to 
become independent.
That means, that either they are now independent, and therefore have 
no loyalty, duty towards the "good" wizards/witches and could easily 
turn, if offered better terms, or they are still monitored and 
controlled by the MoM, but, looking at the precedents, are likely to 
try again for independence and ally themselves with Voldemort.  Who 
knows?

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 19:44:11 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:44:11 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <9aafer+c6o0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aakqb+fa6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15825

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>  I agree with you - it is most likely 
> > that Snape returned to Voldemort as himself, and bearing in mind 
> the 
> > comments Barty Crouch (as Moody) made to Harry, is seems clear 
that 
> > Karkarof is the DE who has left for ever. (Crouch says that Voldy 
> > will track him down and kill him, as he is merciless to his 
> enemies.)
> > That means that Snape is most likely candidate for the one who is 
> too 
> > cowardly to return.
> 
> 
> It would seem from Snape's comments that it is Karkaroff who is the 
> coward.  "Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight?....He betrayed 
too 
> many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into 
the 
> fold."  Karkaroff was always following Snape around during the 
school 
> year, asking for advice.  He is a coward and I think Voldemort 
knows 
> that.  It doesn't appear, though, that Voldemort is out to kill the 
> coward.  Just make him suffer a bit.  

Then why does Barty Crouch, who we now know to be Voldemort's most 
faithful and trusted servant, say the following?:
"Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn upon his 
arm.  He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark Lord to 
wish to meet them...but I doubt he will get far.  The Dark Lord has 
ways of tracking his enemies."

That seem pretty unambiguous to me, particularly when put in the 
context of V. saying that the one who has left forever will be 
killed "ofcourse".

Therefore I think there is pretty strong canon evidence that 
Karkaroff is indeed the one who has left forever and Snape is the 
coward.

Catherine
> 





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 20:46:40 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:46:40 -0000
Subject: Goblins (was Snape's Task)
In-Reply-To: <3AC8BDD0.80AB4D8A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9aaofg+j0el@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15826

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

<snip>

> What about the goblins? I'm so disappointed that nobody commented on 
my
> brilliant and profound insights about third parties bringing about
> Voldemort's downfall and how we have all been quietly conditioned by 
the
> device of Professor Binns to think of goblin wars and goblins as a
> danger as a Thing of The Past.

<snip>

Ahem.

Amanda, my dear, I commented on it. :)  Of course, half of it was a 
joke, so I suppose you won't count it as a full reply, huh?  Anyway, 
if you missed it, (and posts from invisible people tend to become 
invisible themselves) it's message #15468.

Jen (who hopes that redirecting someone to a previous post won't be 
considered off-topic)




From clugo at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 20:57:19 2001
From: clugo at ukonline.co.uk (clugo at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:57:19 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <01d801c0bba5$1aeb4c80$1e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9aap3f+o2fh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15827

Cripes this is difficult! - lots of people wrote lots of things and I 
want to comment on some of them but I don't quite know how to get 
quotes from several posts into one reply so apologies for any wrongly 
contributed quotes.

>foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> I think that polyjuice will show up again; it's far too useful a 
plot device to be ignored.> 
 
I actually hope it doesn't show up again, it reminds me too much of 
the Star Trek transporter in that if you are not careful it is 
necessary to explain in every plot why it can't be used to solve the 
current problems "too much floo powder in the ionosphere for the use 
of polyjuice captain" (Apologies to non Star-Trekkers)


Doreen <nera at r...> wrote:
> IMHO, his following around the Marauders but no mention of Snape 
ever being an animagi, has been downplayed. (has this ever been 
considered?)>

I have wondered this too and also if Dumbledore was one as he was 
Transfiguration teacher - but then just how many unregistered animagi 
are there ? But this and the suggestion that Snape might use 
some "super" polyjuice to be come a snake doesn't tie in with my 
feeling that the exchange between Dumbledore & Snape refers to a long 
standing contingency plan that is coming into play.  

As to Snape returning to Voldemorte/Deatheaters as either long time 
double agent or penitent.  I think the fact that Harry muses (Chp 
37)  "Had he (Snape)made contact with the Death Eaters perhpas? 
Pretended that he had never really gone over to Dumbledore..." 
probably makes this unlikely - I don't find it likely that JKR would 
spell out Snape's task like this.

koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> 
> > > The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. >

Although I am inclined to think the "third party" thing is possible I 
don't know what could be achieved with the Dementors - they aren't 
portrayed as beings that can be reasoned with. Only bribing them with 
souls would seem to have any sway and I don't imagine Dumbledore 
doing this.

>>Amanda Lewansk i <editor at t...> wrote: What about the goblins?<<

I have been meaning to read the things Binns said about the Goblin 
rebellion because this kind of seemingly throw away information does 
seem to surface as important later on.  So I do think the Goblins are 
a possibility.

And finally

<< "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote
Here's a challenge: what OTHER task is it possible for Snape to
undertake that does NOT include going back to V?>>

I thought Snape might be setting himself up as bait for a trap that 
Dumbledore has already planned - for example booking a parent/teacher 
evening with Lucius Malfoy outside of Hogwarts (or something a bit 
more subtle than that).

Chris







From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Mon Apr  2 21:05:09 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:05:09 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <9aa9qj+9qkf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aapi5+n1qo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15828

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Taylor" <LavenderChic at h...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > I also agree with whoever it was that said that Polyjuice is used 
> up as a 
> > plot device... It seems to me that JK will come up with a new way 
> to decive 
> > us, everyone will be looking for Polyjuice now.
> 
> 
> I want JK to deceive us.  I don't want to see the Polyjuice used so 
> soon.  Especially where Snape is concerned.  I want to see *Snape* 
in 
> action as *himself*, not pretending to be someone else.

I wish, but that also leads to the Snape-is-toast hypothesis, because 
he is too well-known to escape damage. I am just imagining all the 
DEs who will be out for his head after the second rise of Voldemort.

> I just don't see how Snape and Dumbledore had time to change their 
> plans.  There was no time.  How long would it even take to make 
> Polyjuice Potion?  Whatever it was that Dumbledore asked Snape to 
do, 
> Snape was ready at that moment.  He wasn't going off to the 
dungeons 
> to prepare Polyjuice, at least not in my opinion.  Also, I have a 
> feeling that whatever plan Dumbledore and Snape came up with, it 
was 
> better than using Polyjuice.

I've had a theory for a while, based on something mentioned in CoS. I 
don't have the book anywhere near me at this time, so I can't give 
exact references, but here goes: doesn't Dumbledore mention something 
about the disappearance of Tom Riddle after leaving Hogwarts, and 
that he had changed himself into something quite unrecognizable 
between then and the rise of "Lord Voldemort"?

Perhaps the plan is for Snape to disappear also, and to become 
someone else entirely--not change into a known person, like with a 
Polyjuice transformation, but into someone who is unknown. I'm 
projecting that this person would take over the now-vacant potions 
position, the ever-vacant DADA position, or serve as a spy.

My belief is that this sort of transformation is irreversible, and 
thus Snape's reaction to being told to perform his task is quite 
understandable: he is to lose his identity, permanently.

Meril
(BTW: this is my first post, I hope it isn't off-topic, if there is 
something wrong w/post, please tell me so I don't screw up again.)
 





From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Apr  2 21:34:28 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:34:28 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <008601c0ba2f$3de019e0$8e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9aar94+nq2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15829

Dumbledore could have heard about Harry's scar hurting from Sirius, 
who we know he is in contact with. At the end of PoA or early in GoF, 
didn't Sirius tell Harry to go to Dumbledore immediately when the 
scar started to hurt? I deduce from this that Sirius had probably 
already told Dumbledore that he might hear from Harry when it started 
hurting.

In addition, Dumbledore probably understands something about how the 
scar was created and how it functions, so it is not too far-fetched 
that he could deduce this conclusion.

-JF

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Milz wrote,
> 
> > Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> > whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous 
the
> > scar hurts.
> 
> ******************
> This line bothered me when I read it ... I was going to ask about 
it then. I
> must have gotten sidetracked ... so easily done in this group.
> 
> How does Dumbledore know about Harry's scar pain "when Voldemort is 
feeling
> particularly murderous?"  Can anyone quote me the lines where it 
says that
> Harry told him this?
> 
> Doreen
> ******************




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 21:50:32 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:50:32 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <9aap3f+o2fh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aas78+nahu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15830

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clugo at u... wrote:
> Cripes this is difficult! so apologies for any wrongly 
> contributed quotes.

> koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> > 
> > > > The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. >


I will accept your apology as I didn't write that ;)  (I won't even 
attempt to try to post quotes from more than one person in one post!)
I still think there are many 'groups' out there. We just haven't seen 
them yet.


 
>  I 
> don't know what could be achieved with the Dementors - they aren't 
> portrayed as beings that can be reasoned with. Only bribing them 
with 
> souls would seem to have any sway and I don't imagine Dumbledore 
> doing this.


Exactly!


>
> I thought Snape might be setting himself up as bait for a trap that 
> Dumbledore has already planned 


I had not thought of that type of plan.  It would sure be enough to 
make a person a bit nervous.

Koinonia




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 22:07:35 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:07:35 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <9aar94+nq2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aat77+q0qj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15831

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Dumbledore could have heard about Harry's scar hurting from Sirius, 
> who we know he is in contact with. At the end of PoA or early in 
GoF, 
> didn't Sirius tell Harry to go to Dumbledore immediately when the 
> scar started to hurt? I deduce from this that Sirius had probably 
> already told Dumbledore that he might hear from Harry when it 
started 
> hurting.
> 
> In addition, Dumbledore probably understands something about how 
the 
> scar was created and how it functions, so it is not too far-fetched 
> that he could deduce this conclusion.
> 
> -JF
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Milz wrote,
> > 
> > > Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> > > whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous 
> the
> > > scar hurts.
> > 
> > ******************
> > This line bothered me when I read it ... I was going to ask about 
> it then. I
> > must have gotten sidetracked ... so easily done in this group.
> > 
> > How does Dumbledore know about Harry's scar pain "when Voldemort 
is 
> feeling
> > particularly murderous?"  Can anyone quote me the lines where it 
> says that
> > Harry told him this?
> > 
> > Doreen
> > ******************

Pg 521, English edition, Chapter 30: The Pensieve
harry speaking: "Then he did the Cruciatus curse on Wormtail - and my 
scar hurt," said Harry.  "It woke me up, it hurt so badly."
<snip>
"I see," said Dumbledore quietly. "I see. Now, has your scar hurt at 
any other time this year, excepting the time it woke you up over the 
summer?"
"No, I - how did you know it wokeme up over the summer? said Harry, 
astonished.
"You are not Sirius' only correspondent," said Dumbledore.
<snip>
"I have a theory, no more than that... It is my belief that your scar 
hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is felling a 
particularly stong surge of hatred."

Does that answer your question?
BTW: Does anyone find it strange that Dumbledore calls Voldemort: 
Lord Voldemort, instead of just Voldemort - It is a honourary term in 
his case, after all, and I would have thought that Dumbledore would 
have been one of the last people to use it.  Any thoughts?

Catherine




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Apr  2 22:20:37 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:20:37 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <9aa14e+amvo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aatvl+vgbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15832

I suspect that V already knows that Crouch jr is dead:  

1. A dementor administered the kiss, and they are listed as among V's 
natural allies. I don't know how dementors communicate, but it's 
possible that they can feed information to V now that he's back.

2. Maybe V can remotely sense that the "aura" (or whatever) of one of 
his supporters is gone. Auras aren't really supported by canon 
(except Trelawney), but JKR has been known to pull stranger stuff out 
of her, uh, hat.

3. Consider Fudge as a possible conduit of information (wittingly or 
otherwise). The Minister seems very hinky at the end of both POA and 
GOF, so he *could* be a spy.  If he's not a spy, then he probably 
wrote a detailed report the minute he got back to the MOM, since he's 
obviously a big Hufflepuff who follows rules.  And of course, the MOM 
is probably as leaky as a sieve -- wouldn't McNair, the 
MOM's "executioner" be told about Crouch jr's fate?

4. There was a lot of shouting and carrying on after Dumbledore found 
out that Crouch had been smooched by the dementor. Anyone could have 
overheard what they were saying. Could Rita Skeeter have been 
listening in? One of the students who happened to be in the infirmary 
recovering from a skint elbow? What about M Pomfrey -- what do we 
*really* know about her?

5. Finally, whatever communications there were between V and Crouch 
would stop abruptly.  If contacts were infrequent, then it might take 
V some time to notice, but he surely would miss them by the start of 
the Fall term.

In short, I wouldn't bet my life on Voldemort's ignorance.

-JF


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

<snip>
No one in V's camp knows he's been found 
out by Dumbledore, forced to tell the story, and Kissed--unless 
there's a spy at Hogwarts. (cue ominous music)

Amy Z





From katie at vquill.com  Mon Apr  2 23:25:56 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:25:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <9aat77+q0qj@eGroups.com>
References: <9aar94+nq2f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010402152453.00bc8900@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15833

At 10:07 PM 4/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>BTW: Does anyone find it strange that Dumbledore calls Voldemort:
>Lord Voldemort, instead of just Voldemort - It is a honourary term in
>his case, after all, and I would have thought that Dumbledore would
>have been one of the last people to use it.  Any thoughts?
>
>Catherine


Maybe he knows where the name came from and it sort of reminds him that 
this horrible evil person is really just little Tom Riddle -- just a bit 
mixed up....

-Katie





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  2 22:47:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 22:47:53 -0000
Subject: John is a bad, bad boy - Goblins, Polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <9aagrn+619a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aavip+q1e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15834

Joywitch wrote:
> Was I the only one struck by the irony of this statement in John's 
> last post:
> 
> >Let's all take a bit of a chill pill and remember that if we're 
> going to be sending an email, we should check it...[snip]...for 
> possible misconstruances, mistaken meanings etc. 
> 

Right.  We should check it carefully and make sure that it is 
chock-full of possible misconstruances, mistaken meanings, outright 
lies, dangerous rumors, etc.

Amanda:  Yes, I noticed your goblin theory and I wholeheartedly 
endorse it.  While I'm on the subject of Wise Things Amanda Has Said, 
I agree that JKR shouldn't use Polyjuice Potion again.  It would be 
okay for our side to use it 'cause the readers would know about it, 
but we'll be alert for another undercover DE, so I think it would be a 
weak plot device used a second time.

My thoughts on a rapidly aging post:

Amanda wrote:

>Sirius did use owl-order of some kind; in his
>letter to Harry at the end of PoA, he says "Crookshanks took the 
order
>to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the
>gold from my own Gringotts vault."
>
>Which leads to the interesting question of why the goblins would 
allow
>access to anyone's vault who was not the owner, unless the owner
>authorized it. And if Sirius authorized it, why was this contact not
>reported to the authorities during the whole (pardon the expression)
>witch hunt for him? 

I find the latter not too hard to accept; as others have pointed out, 
Swiss banks are happy to hand funds over to clients who are known 
criminals, so why not goblin banks?  Add a long and hostile 
relationship between goblins and wizards, and I can see the goblins 
not caring a whit whether big bad Sirius Black uses his Galleons to 
escape, kills a lot more wizards and Muggles, whatever.  "It's a 
business transaction
what he does with his money is not our concern."

The former, however, is either incomprehensible or perhaps, raises 
some intriguing possibilities.  What bank would allow a child to take 
hundreds of Galleons (or whatever a Firebolt costs) from his 
godfather's vault?  UNLESS
Sirius specifically left instructions, when 
he was hustled off to Azkaban, that Harry should have access to that 
money.  I can see him doing that; he probably thought he would be dead 
within a few years, and we know he held himself responsible for 
destroying Harry's family.  I can definitely imagine Sirius thinking 
that the least he could do was turn his money over to Harry.  Crouch 
and Co. would just see it as a cynical bid for mercy-the man's just 
murdered the child's parents and now he wants to bequeath him his 
money?  Sick.

But this would mean that the MOM passed the information on to 
Gringott's but not to Harry.  Maybe they (the MOM) would have told him 
in time, when they deemed him old enough to hear the story?

This limb's getting kind of shaky.  I blame JKR . . . she's the one 
who wrote that weird sentence to begin with.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
   "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry
 said furiously.  "Look at the Dursleys!"
   "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------------




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Apr  2 23:11:38 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 23:11:38 -0000
Subject: M & S and Choc Frogs
In-Reply-To: <d0.13c2f98a.27fa1e9e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ab0va+nc0l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15835

>Is M & S a store in the UK or the manufacturer?

M&S is a UK retailer of Food and Clothes.  They also have a limited 
number of stores outside of the UK.

>Is there any way someone in the US can order some of these cards?

Not easily... noticed there were a few eBay auctions.

>What do they look like?

They are made of thin plastic.  They are the same size as a credit 
card, but only about half the thickness.

On one side it shows a logo of a frog, and the Harry Potter(tm) logo.
On the other side it shows an image from The World of Harry Potter.  
The image changes when you move the card... there are two images in 
total.

There is a set of 8 cards.

>I am picturing something like baseball collector cards

Picture a Pokemon card, and you are not far off.

> but surely the frogs aren't flat like the bubble gum that 
> comes with baseball cards so I must be wrong.

The frogs themselves are quite flat.

>How much do they cost? 

1.49 GBP... so about $2.20 ish.
 
Nick





From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 23:32:49 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 23:32:49 -0000
Subject: Question for those who have the book Fantastic Beasts
Message-ID: <9ab271+3of9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15836

First off, I must take this oppurtunity to scold John Walton severely 
for his April Fools joke and admit that it almost gave her a heart 
attack. Bad, bad John. -_-;; (hehe j/k) *thinks it funny that she, a 
fifteen-year-old, is scolding someone who is likely way older than 
her* Role reversal!

Anyway, on to the question- sorry if this has been asked before, but 
has anyone...

*thinks maybe she should include a spoiler space for those who don't 
have Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them*
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
... has anyone ever thought that maybe Crookshanks is a Kneazle? I 
don't think Crookshanks is Mrs. Figg... I was under the impression 
that Animagi transformed into animals of the same sex, but... 

JKR indicates that Kneazles can crossbreed with cats, so maybe the 
fact that he doesn't have markings is due to the fact that his family 
line has been crossed so much with normal cats. That may also explain 
why he wasn't wanted, and why he stayed so long in the pet shop- maybe 
pure-bred Kneazles are much more desirable than those whose blood has 
been so diluted that they appear to resemble cats more than Kneazles.

Kneazles are also said to have the ability to sense unsavoury or 
suspicious characters... Crookshanks certainly didn't like Pettigrew. 
Kneazles are also extremely intelligent and loyal- Crookshanks could 
communicate with Sirius and understand what Sirius wanted, and when 
Sirius was threatened, Crookshanks protected Sirius with his body. 
"Occasionally aggressive" also fits Crookshanks quite well- he doesn't 
hesitate to sink his claws into Harry when the need arises.

Kneazles have tails like a lion's... is this what a bottlebrush tail 
would look like? Or perhaps the bottlebrush is the result of breeding 
with cats.

The fact that owners of Kneazles must get licenses was never mentioned 
by Hermione... maybe Crookshanks looked enough like a normal cat that 
they didn't need one?

- Celeste Chang




From clugo at ukonline.co.uk  Mon Apr  2 23:43:30 2001
From: clugo at ukonline.co.uk (clugo at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 23:43:30 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <9aat77+q0qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ab2r2+8fk4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15837

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> BTW: Does anyone find it strange that Dumbledore calls Voldemort: 
> Lord Voldemort, instead of just Voldemort - It is a honourary term 
in his case, after all, and I would have thought that Dumbledore 
would have been one of the last people to use it.  Any thoughts?
 
Well he calls him 'Voldemort' when talking to Harry beside the 
penseive in GoF but then Harry doesn't have the inhibition that the 
rest of the wizarding world do about the name.  Maybe he is trying to 
get people used to using/hearing the name and Lord Voldemort will be 
easier to swallow as a first step than plain old Voldemort ?

Chris




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 23:45:28 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:45:28 +0200
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <986232733.32653.53120.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010403005912.00a120b0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15838


Haggridd wrote:

>Please see what I have said concerning this matter in my post "Snape's 
>Mission".  I have a different perspective on it from you. Thanks.

My objections against the Polyjuice scenario are pretty much the same as 
those mentioned [most recently in Digest 737] by  Amanda, Koinonia and 
Catherine.

In the end it depends on what you find more intriguing. Perhaps it is Snape 
going as Crouch and facing dangers that involve maintaining this disguise, 
eg.  erroneously addressing Peter as Wormtail or vice versa. In this case 
Snape knows that if he is discovered he will be killed and that is the 
ultimate challenge he faces.
Or it is Snape going as himself and facing  Voldemort and the DE but also, 
the way I see it, demons from his past. He was a DE once, too, will he 
manage to pretend that he has never ceased to be one? How much of his act 
will be pretence and how much real Snape? Does he have the strength of will 
to carry out his mission, especially if Voldemort starts wining? All this 
difficult issues worthy of the complex man I envision him to be.

Catherine wrote:

>I don't want to believe that Snape is going to end up a supporter of
>Voldemort.  In my experience, it is often the most unlikely people
>who do the most heroic things, and with that in mind I would be very
>surprised if Snape doesn't have an important, heroic role in
>Voldemort's ultimate downfall.


I believe that he too will be one of the those tempted. Most importantly, I 
hope that he will not lose faith in his own redeemability and ability to do 
good.

Vlatka--suddenly feeling sad



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 22:55:13 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:55:13 +0200
Subject: school in OoP
In-Reply-To: <986232733.32653.53120.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010403001432.00a0eec0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15839

Rachel wrote:

>Does anyone else wonder how these kids are going to go to school next year
>with a giant wizard war ensueing?

This is something  I've been wondering about as well. First of all, I do 
believe that in the first couple of months nothing much will happen. Public 
opinion on what actually happened will remain divided as Fudge attempts to 
explain the Triwizard events  as the work of lunatic who acted alone and 
tries to shift the blame to both Crouches. DE will maintain low profile and 
try to collect as many followers and infiltrate as many Ministry 
departments etc.

However, even if Voldemort declares himself openly, I believe that the 
school will remain in session. Hogwarts, while obviously a target for the 
DE, did remain open during the VWI [the Marauders went to school during 
most of that time], primarily because, IMO, it is such an important 
institution in the wizarding world and to close it down would be to give 
into chaos and admit defeat.

What I'm wondering about are the reactions of Muggle-born kids and their 
parents.  Personally, if I found out that my (hypothetical) children were 
targeted by a hate group that was gaining power, I'd try to insure their 
[yes, yes I know, relative] safety, or in this case transfer them to the 
local schools. Lily's parents either did not have such qualms or were 
persuaded [by Dumbledore, MoM, Lily herself?] to allow their daughter to 
remain at Hogwarts,  and I'm curios to find out what  Hermione's parents 
will do in this situation.

Vlatka


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  2 23:55:40 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <9aas78+nahu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010402235540.57747.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15840

> I thought Snape might be setting himself up as bait for a trap
> that Dumbledore has already planned 


Whatever the task is/was, it has to be sustained over the course of
three more books - books that will have similar endings to GoF in
that evil is repulsed without being completely defeated.

So we should be looking at a longer term task.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 00:36:28 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:36:28 -0500
Subject: Voldemort's Lie Detector (was Snape's Mission)
References: <9aajmh+a33u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC91B0C.4074A58D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15841

Haggridd wrote:

> If anyone has a plot device that can get around Voldemort's ability to
> detect any lies, I would happily accept another mechanism for Snape's
> mission

This is the second time you've said this. I *still* want to know why you
think Voldemort can do this. I think he's just as fool-able as the next
Evil Overlord. Is it in canon someplace that I'm forgetting?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:38:38 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:38:38 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
Message-ID: <9ab62e+8vpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15842

Vlatka wrote about whether it would be a more satisfying read for 
Snape to pose as himself returned to the Death Eater fold, rather
than for him to use the polyjuice potion and face the difficulties 
that this path may encounter. There also seems to be a general 
distaste for polyjuice potion-- no pun intended-- as a plot device.  

Were Snape to return as Snape, he would have to confront his old 
master, and Voldemort has the ability to detect all lies.  As Crouch, 
Jr. he would have to avoid such ticklish questions, but he would be 
more likely to do so.  I have to rule out Snape as Snape for this 
reason, unless you would have him be slipperier than Bill Clinton at
a Grand Jury-- "It depends on your definition of what 'traitor' is, 
Master".  I don't think that this can be sustained in a future book, 
but of course, I could be mistaken.

Haggridd




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 00:40:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:40:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
References: <9aakqb+fa6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC91BEB.A08371A7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15843

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Therefore I think there is pretty strong canon evidence that Karkaroff
> is indeed the one who has left forever and Snape is the coward.

Alas, there is good canon evidence for both viewpoints. And probably a
few more. JKR's *good* at this, wonder if that's why she gets the money?
Maddening, how ambiguous she can be, and amazing, how clear it always is
in retrospect. Why doesn't someone do a counter-down for Book 5, like
they have for the movie..?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From perenelle13 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:42:51 2001
From: perenelle13 at yahoo.com (perenelle13 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:42:51 -0000
Subject: school in OoP
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010403001432.00a0eec0@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <9ab6ab+9a7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15844

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., zora_djevojka at y... wrote:

> What I'm wondering about are the reactions of Muggle-born kids and 
> their parents.  Personally, if I found out that my (hypothetical) 
> children were targeted by a hate group that was gaining power, I'd 
> try to insure their [yes, yes I know, relative] safety, or in this 
> case transfer them to the local schools. Lily's parents either did 
> not have such qualms or were persuaded [by Dumbledore, MoM, Lily 
> herself?] to allow their daughter to remain at Hogwarts,  and I'm 
> curios to find out what  Hermione's parents will do in this 
> situation.

hmm.  good point... but (assuming that this hasn't been discussed to 
death already; i'm fairly new here!) i'd be interestes in 
hearing some thoughts on how well-acquainted Muggle parents of wizard 
children are with the whole Voldemort and dark magic scenario.  i'm 
sure that kids talk with their parents at least somewhat about the 
goings-on in the wizarding world, but how much do they really share 
about everything?  (hey, how much does *any* kid really tell their 
parents about "what happened at school today"? ;> ).  would they be 
inclined to describe in morbid detail all about the dark forces 
maligned against their entire community?  if they did, wouldn't any 
reasonable Muggle parent be scared half out of her mind and pull 
her child out of school faster than you can say "Voldemort"?  how 
much do the kids that, unlike our three heroes, are somewhat removed 
from the evil-fighting racket think about Voldie's return to power?  
i have a feeling that public opinion isn't necessarily going to be 
swayed towards Dumbledore et. al., as people are wont to be in denial 
about BadThings, despite staring them in the face.

mm.  this is getting a bit too stream-of-consciousness, so i think 
i'll leave off here.  thoughts? 

-cyn
[hoping this hasn't already been hashed and re-hashed, but i can only 
lurk and dig through old posts for so long!]  :>




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:38:37 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:38:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
References: <20010401233422.23179.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> <017e01c0bb98$1c8e8820$1e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <003a01c0bbd6$6de9acc0$be481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15845

How about providing evidence to the ministry that Sirius Black did not
kill Wormtail?

Rena


> Here's a challenge: what OTHER task is it possible for Snape to
> undertake that does NOT include going back to V?
>
> ##################
>
> MY idea >>>>> Is it possible that Snape's task is not to go to
Voldemort,
> but rather has something to do with Azkaban?
>
> Sirius is taking on the task of alerting the "old crowd"
> Molly, Arthur, Bill, and *probably Percy Weasley, IMO* will take
care of any
> problems in the MOM.
> Hagrid and Madam Maxime are setting off to speak to the Giants.
>
> The only group left, in my mind, is the Dementors. Voldemort has
been
> underestimating Harry and Dumbledore up to now. I think that is soon
to end.
> I think he is going to be ever vigilant from now on.
>
> Snape is no fool. I do not think that he would attempt to fool
Voldemort
> with any disguise or weak story of "playing spy for him for twelve
years,
> rather than looking for him to help him."
>
> >>>>MY IDEA IS >>>> Snape has some sort of task which involves the
Dementors
> and those prisoners which are being held there in Azkaban. I believe
that
> Dumbledore is getting all of his ducks in line. In order to defeat
> Voldemort, the smartest strategy would be to weaken him by first
attacking
> and defeating Voldemort's allies.... either defeating them or
rendering them
> powerless or at the very least, less powerful.
>
> I am wondering in what capacity Snape is going to approach
Azkaban....
> Would it be possible for him to trade places with Barty Crouch Jr.?
Crouch
> is "worse than dead" (GoF) but not dead.  Did it say in GoF what
happened to
> Crouch's body *after the kiss*? Is it possible that Snape would have
time to
> change places with Crouch *before* the Dementors drag him off to
Azkaban?
> Once inside Azkaban, as Crouch... shortly before Voldemort descends
on
> Azkaban to *release his loyal followers*... would Snape then be able
to be
> more convincing as Crouch Jr.?<<<<<
>
> I love these books ... so many ideas to toss around til book five!!
> Doreen
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
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>
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:44:19 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:44:19 -0000
Subject: Voldie's Lie Detector (formerly Snape's Mission)
Message-ID: <9ab6d3+v66s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15846

Amanda, it is in the canon that Snape can detect lies.  He does so
and he asserts the power explicitly with Harry in Book I, and with 
Bryce in Book IV.  I believe that there are other instances, but they 
do not come to mind right now.  Of course, Snape himself might be 
lying, but he did detect the lies in those two instances, at least.

Haggridd




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 00:52:30 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:52:30 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task (with a nod to Voldie's Lie Detector)
Message-ID: <9ab6se+u51h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15847

I like what Doreen speculates as to Snape's task.  It finesses the 
question of Voldemort's ability to detect lies.  It does however 
return us to the prospect of making and imbibing polyjuice potion.  I 
personally think that the plot device is not yet spent, but others 
seem to feel differently.

Haggridd




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 01:00:29 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:00:29 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Harry=92s_Curious_Lack_of_Curiousity?=
Message-ID: <9ab7bd+14mr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15848

Yes, my little brain is just full of thoughts today.  I hope this has 
not been mentioned -- I have been skipping a lot of posts lately -- 
but I have been thinking about the whole question of why Harry does 
not seem to be very interested in learning about his past.

Maybe it is because, in the wizarding world, there are many more (and 
more intense) reminders of the dead than there are in the muggle 
world.  Harry has "met" his parents in the Mirror of Erised, in the 
moving pictures in the album Hagrid gave him, and the shadow versions 
that come out of the wand in GoF, and seen James (sort of) in 
Patronus form.  The wizarding world also has ghosts as well as 
thinking, talking, interactive shadows such as the one of himself 
that Tom Riddle put in his diary.  Maybe Harry feels, after the whole 
Mirror of Erised incident, that he needs to avoid any reminders of 
his parents so as to be able to lead his own life.  Maybe he worries 
that if he starts reading all the books that mention what happened on 
Halloween 1981 in Godric's Hollow that he will become obsessed like 
he did with the Mirror of Erised.

Isn't there a scene in PoA where Harry tells himself that if he wants 
to win the next Quidditch match he has to get it together and stop 
brooding about his parent's death?


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr  3 00:21:44 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:21:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Feeling his pain
References: <9aar94+nq2f@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010402152453.00bc8900@vquill.com>
Message-ID: <3AC91798.EDC48205@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15849

Katie Kearns wrote:
> 
> At 10:07 PM 4/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >BTW: Does anyone find it strange that Dumbledore calls Voldemort:
> >Lord Voldemort, instead of just Voldemort - It is a honourary term in
> >his case, after all, and I would have thought that Dumbledore would
> >have been one of the last people to use it.  Any thoughts?
> >
> >Catherine
> 
> Maybe he knows where the name came from and it sort of reminds him that
> this horrible evil person is really just little Tom Riddle -- just a bit
> mixed up....

Something like that occurred to me too, but more in the context
of "if you know someone's true name, you have power over that
person" (common folkloric belief); that might be a reason for
Dumbledore to use a fuller version of the name.  (Going around
calling V. "I-Am-Lord-Voldemort" might be both cumbersome and
confusing!)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 01:08:35 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:08:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission
References: <9a91sc+g89c@eGroups.com> <3AC870D2.7B4C06B8@texas.net> <01d201c0bba0$ee9b71e0$1e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AC92292.397E92A6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15850

Doreen wrote:

>  None of the Death Eaters knows Crouch, Jr.'s fate.
>
> Wormtail does. In detail.
>
> ******************
> I must have slept through this one ... help!
> How does Wormtail know Crouch, Jr.'s fate?

Clarification: At the point in the original message where I responded
with "Wormtail does," he has only mentioned Crouch Jr.'s still being
alive and the faithful servant at Hogwarts. Voldemort never *names* him
to the assembled DeathEaters, but Wormtail knows that it's Crouch Jr.
and what ploy has been used to ensconce him at Hogwarts.

The next line of the original post then elaborated that none of them
knew Crouch Jr. had been Kissed, and I agreed. This, even Wormtail does
not know (that we are aware of).

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr  3 00:23:16 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:23:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's Hollow - Ancestries
In-Reply-To: <9aabde+10dd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010402202316.0076e4a4@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15851

At 05:03 PM 4/2/01 -0000, you wrote:

>1)I just relized that Godric's Hollow is probably named for Godric 
>Gryffindor.  Could Godric's Hollow not be a town, like Hogsmede, but 
>a place where Gryffindor's go for protection?

I was thinking that perhaps the Potters are descendents of Godric...

That brings me to the question about Voldemort being 'the last remaining
ancestor of Slytherin'. I noted that as an error in word use, but then I
recently found a web page saying that, although the word was corrected in
some editions, later ones have the word 'ancestor' put back. Can someone
confirm this? Also, was someone speaking at the time or was it the narrator?

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 01:25:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:25:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Goblins (was Snape's Task)
References: <9aaofg+j0el@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC9269C.1C201E75@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15852

Jennifer Piersol wrote:

> Ahem.
> Amanda, my dear, I commented on it. :)

Whoops. Here you go...

I am so disappointed that nobody, <Insert Text> save one amazingly
insightful, perspicacious, and highly intelligent person <End Insert
Text>, commented on my brilliant and profound insights about third
parties bringing about
Voldemort's downfall and how we have all been quietly conditioned by
the device of Professor Binns to think of goblin wars and goblins as a
danger as a Thing of The Past.

> (and posts from invisible people tend to become invisible themselves)
> it's message #15468.

You're not invisible, where'd you get that idea? You just don't talk as
much as I do. Nobody talks as much as I do. Here's what you said:

I really like the idea that the goblins are going to be Voldy's
downfall.  Especially if it echoes Bagman's downfall... you know,
Voldy's aware of how the goblins love money, all that stuff... and then
he doesn't take them seriously when they start asking for their
paychecks for working in his service...
<snip>
--------
This is exactly the scenario I'd envisioned. Didn't Fred or George
mention something about how goblins only care about gold, or something,
in GoF (when they finally explain what they've been doing), or didn't
Hagrid or someone mention this when he first takes Harry to Gringott's?

I just suddenly got suspicious, the way goblin rebellions and conflicts
have always been in the "background noise," in Every Single Book, seems
like (I'll have to go look), and now they seem just totally ignored and
it's taken for granted that they're safe. To the extent that they seem
to control all the money.

And house-elves having their own kind of magic made me think that
perhaps goblins do too--and I wondered if the species were related at
all...? Will Dobby be important as a goblin liaison of some kind...?

Reeling into speculation, and with dishes calling me from downstairs,
Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 01:31:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:31:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] school in OoP
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010403001432.00a0eec0@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <3AC9280A.3C775259@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15853

zora_djevojka at yahoo.com wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
>
> >Does anyone else wonder how these kids are going to go to school next
> year
> >with a giant wizard war ensueing?
>
> This is something  I've been wondering about as well. First of all, I
> do believe that in the first couple of months nothing much will
> happen.

<snip of scenarios of nothing happening and why>
Also, I think it's going to take Voldemort a bit of regrouping to
restore his Death Eaters' confidence in him. But given his personality
and egomania, it may mean laying low, but it just as easily could mean a
pre-emptive strike.

> However, even if Voldemort declares himself openly, I believe that the
> school will remain in session. Hogwarts, while obviously a target for
> the DE, did remain open during the VWI [the Marauders went to school
> during most of that time], primarily because, IMO, it is such an
> important
> institution in the wizarding world and to close it down would be to
> give into chaos and admit defeat.

More importantly, it's probably regarded as a very safe place for the
next generation to be. Dumbledore is regarded as the most powerful
wizard in the world, isn't he? Hogwarts has all kinds of defenses, too.
I'd sure want my kids there if there was Major Danger on the horizon,
rather than here at home in my not-as-well-defended house, where only my
husband and I can defend them if the need arises.

> What I'm wondering about are the reactions of Muggle-born kids and
> their parents.

Probably would depend on how much they knew about the previous war, and
Dumbledore.

> I'm curios to find out what  Hermione's parents will do in this
> situation.

You raise a good point. I'm curious now, too. Because either choice on
their part could be worked into the plot.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 01:48:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:48:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <3AC92292.397E92A6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010403014850.62489.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15854

I got it.  It just came to me.

It's so simple it's perfect.

Of course.  There's no other explanation.

The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up
a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
a decoy for Voldemort.

No wonder he went pale.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 01:58:19 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:58:19 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <20010403014850.62489.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9abanr+4l64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15855

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
he is to brew up
> a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
> a decoy for Voldemort.
> 
> No wonder he went pale.


My young child was sitting next to me as I read the above.  His 
response:  that would be bad for Snape!

I think you have figured it out!  ;)

Koinonia




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 02:10:35 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 02:10:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9ab62e+8vpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9abber+k9h1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15856

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> Were Snape to return as Snape, he would have to confront his old 
> master, and Voldemort has the ability to detect all lies.  As 
Crouch, 
> Jr. he would have to avoid such ticklish questions, but he would be 
> more likely to do so.  I have to rule out Snape as Snape for this 
> reason


The problem I have with this is that you are not giving any thought 
to Snape doing anything but going back to the DE's.  I don't believe 
that is what his task is.  

I don't think Voldemort can detect *all* lies.  No one can do that. 
How in the world could Snape have fooled V in the first place?  

I will feel very silly if it ends up that Snape was taking that 
Polyjuice Potion!

Koinonia 




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 02:11:27 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 02:11:27 -0000
Subject: Gred & Forge
Message-ID: <9abbgf+4d4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15857

I am entertaining an idea that Fred & George Weasley will become 
Unspeakables in the Department of Mysteries of the Ministry of Magic. 
Consider:  They will have graduated from Hogwarts at the end of Book 
V; they have to do something; they are tempermentally and by 
experience well suited to undercover work (resouceful, rule-breaking, 
Marauder's Map); I refuse to believe that they will go bad; the joke 
shoppe could be their cover.

Haggridd




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 02:23:33 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 02:23:33 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task/Mission
Message-ID: <9abc75+l31r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15858

Koinonia, I agree with you that I hadn't considered other 
possibilities than Snape's returning to spy on Voldemort.  Your idea 
of his becoming Harry as a decoy is superb.  Doreen's idea of a 
mission to the Dementors also strikes me as necessary and plausible.  
 
I maintain, however, that JKR has imbued Voldemort witht the power to 
detect all lies, perhaps in order to make situations as we are 
discussing now not to be trivial in solution.  It is documented in 
several instances in the canon:  at the end of Philosopher's Stone 
with Harry; at the beginning of Goblet of Fire with Bryce and, I 
believe, with Wormtail. What is even more compelling is that
Voldemort 
himself asserted this as his power; he didn't simply deduce that the 
others were lying.

Haggridd




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr  3 01:42:30 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:42:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <20010403014850.62489.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3AC92292.397E92A6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010402214230.009c0328@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15859

At 06:48 PM 4/2/01 -0700, you wrote:
>I got it.  It just came to me.
>
>It's so simple it's perfect.
>
>Of course.  There's no other explanation.
>
>The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up
>a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
>a decoy for Voldemort.
>
>No wonder he went pale.

Hey ... that is brilliant =). Heh, I was going to suggest that he was going
to go out, as himself, as a bait for the Death Eaters and possibly
Voldemort himself, but I think your suggestion is much more simple, direct
and interesting.

Then the question becomes, however: why? To tackle Voldemort by himself? To
let Dumbledore take him on? Surely Voldemort won't be shy about facing his
enemies. Would the element of surprise be sufficient?

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr  3 01:53:44 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:53:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as Animagus/Dragon's blood
In-Reply-To: <01d801c0bba5$1aeb4c80$1e14a3d1@doreen>
References: <9a2aib+kv3k@eGroups.com> <3AC877F5.C3905DC7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010402215344.007714b4@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15860

At 01:45 PM 4/2/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Severus Snape, Potions Master and ex-Death Eater, which gives him much
>knowledge of Voldemort and his strengths, as well as his weaknesses. And,
>IMHO, his following around the Marauders but no mention of Snape ever being
>an animagi, has been downplayed. (has this ever been considered?)

Hmm ... I've never thought of that. However, it appears to me that the
process of becoming an animagus is fairly dangerous, and I hardly think
Snape would have had a very strong motivation to become one. I assume that
James Potter and his gang learned how to transform in secret, although
certainly nothing rules that option out.

>(and btw ... what *are* the
>twelve uses of dragon's blood? Is this something that we will find out in
>5,6, &7?) 

I don't know. But I believe the answer is already available in the
'Fantastic Beasts' book.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 02:57:46 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 02:57:46 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Harry=92s_Curious_Lack_of_Curiousity?=
In-Reply-To: <9ab7bd+14mr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9abe7a+pmvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15861


Hi you guys. We seem to have gained several new members over the past 
few days. Welcome!

Joywitch wrote:
"Maybe it is because, in the wizarding world, there are many more (and
more intense) reminders of the dead than there are in the muggle 
world.  Harry has "met" his parents in the Mirror of Erised, in the 
moving pictures in the album Hagrid gave him, and the shadow versions 
that come out of the wand in GoF, and seen James (sort of) in 
Patronus form.  The wizarding world also has ghosts as well as 
thinking, talking, interactive shadows such as the one of himself 
that Tom Riddle put in his diary.  Maybe Harry feels, after the whole 
Mirror of Erised incident, that he needs to avoid any reminders of 
his parents so as to be able to lead his own life.  Maybe he worries  
that if he starts reading all the books that mention what happened on 
Halloween 1981 in Godric's Hollow that he will become obsessed like 
he did with the Mirror of Erised."

--Right. We say that Harry isn't very interested in his past (i.e. 
his parents) but we seem to be forgetting the Mirror of Erised in 
PS/SS. He was very interested in them then. It was all he could think 
about, and likely would have it Dumbledore hadn't informed him about 
the mirror. I think that maybe after that incident Harry decided to 
live and not dwell on his parents death. An internal pact, or 
something. He could also be afraid of facing the memories of his 
parents b/c he feels guilty that they died trying to save him.(?) I 
dunno what I'd do if I was Harry's position, but he know's enough 
about Quidditch that you'd think he'd like to know about his own past 
and even more so when other people (Hermione) do.

Scott




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 03:08:58 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 03:08:58 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <20010403014850.62489.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9abesa+go8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15862

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> I got it.  It just came to me.
> 
> It's so simple it's perfect.
> 
> Of course.  There's no other explanation.
> 
> The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew 
up
> a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
> a decoy for Voldemort.

IknowIknowIknow, yeah, and *Harry's* task will eventually include 
using Polyjuice Potion to become Snape--I can just see Dumbledore 
putting Snape and Harry together as fighting partners, as it were.  

I can see Snape and Harry, each looking like the other, having a 
battle royal about how to act next in Dumbledore's plan.

Snape-looking-like-Harry:  I mean it now, *you* will go that way and 
*I* will go this way--

Harry-looking-like-Snape:  You can't tell me what to do, we're not 
*at* Hogwarts right now!

Snape-looking-like-Harry:  I can still *make you*, you little git!

<giggling>

Lisa




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 03:24:36 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 03:24:36 -0000
Subject: Amanda is Brilliant! (was Re: Goblins)  --and V's downfall--
In-Reply-To: <3AC9269C.1C201E75@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9abfpk+n5mb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15863

Jennifer Piersol wrote:
Ahem.
Amanda, my dear, I commented on it. :)> I really like the idea that 
the goblins are going to be Voldy's
> downfall.  Especially if it echoes Bagman's downfall... you know,
> Voldy's aware of how the goblins love money, all that stuff... and 

Whoops. Here you go...
> 

then
> he doesn't take them seriously when they start asking for their
> paychecks for working in his service...
> <snip>
> --------
"This is exactly the scenario I'd envisioned. Didn't Fred or George
mention something about how goblins only care about gold, or 
something, in GoF (when they finally explain what they've been 
doing), or didn't Hagrid or someone mention this when he first takes 
Harry to Gringott's?"

--Hmmm, Can I comment on it now? I think the Goblins will possibly be 
important in future books, but I don't think that they'll cause 
Voldy's downfall (now wait before you pelt me with British Pizza, let 
me explain!).

I personally think that the House Elves will be the third party to 
cause V's downfall. I just get the feeling that they will, because 
they obviously have powerful magic and they have been opressed for a 
long time...(but let's not get into that!)


However I can see the Goblin's playing an increasingly important role 
in upcoming books. They do after all control the monetary system 
(from what we've seen) and therefore in a sense the economy.  If the 
Goblins were to go over to V, and thereby close off the ecomomy to 
all but DE's what would happen. Anarchy would reign supreme. But then 
if they weren't paid, and decided to change sides and...hey I do see 
where you're going with this!

"I just suddenly got suspicious, the way goblin rebellions and 
conflicts have always been in the "background noise," in Every Single 
Book, seems like (I'll have to go look), and now they seem just 
totally ignored and it's taken for granted that they're safe. To the 
extent that they seem to control all the money."

--I thought the Goblin rebellions were just in all the book because 
they sound so completely boring, and because it's the only "ghost-
book" prof. Binns can handle!?! (I don't know)

"And house-elves having their own kind of magic made me think that
perhaps goblins do too--and I wondered if the species were related at
all...? Will Dobby be important as a goblin liaison of some kind...?"

--This might work, and then we could both be right!

"Reeling into speculation, and with dishes calling me from downstairs"

--Don't you have John to do that?


"Amanda"
--What a great idea! (There. Do you feel better?) 

Scott 
Who could grovel at your feet in an attempt to say "Yes your idea was 
good!" but thinks that this also John is job.






From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Tue Apr  3 03:55:41 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:55:41 -0300
Subject: Snape's mission
Message-ID: <3AC949BB.95BD2B3C@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15864

First Meril hypothesized:

Perhaps the plan is for Snape to disappear also, and to become 
someone else entirely--not change into a known person, like with a 
Polyjuice transformation, but into someone who is unknown. I'm 
projecting that this person would take over the now vacant potions 
position, the ever vacant DADA position, or serve as a spy.

My belief is that this sort of transformation is irreversible, and 
thus Snape's reaction to being told to perform his task is quite 
understandable: he is to lose his identity, permanently.

<><><><>

I *like* this idea! Snape returning as himself to Moldy Voldy just seems
too obvious for JKR. It would be so awesome if he transformed himself
into the persona of the new DADA professor.

Theory:  is it possible for Snape to transform himself into a goblin?
Then he could help negotiate with them to turn away from Voldy.

<><><><>

Then Magda suggested:

The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up
a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
a decoy for Voldemort.

No wonder he went pale.

<><><><>

Bwa ha ha! He'd have to be nice to the Gryffindors!

Angela

-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Tue Apr  3 04:12:04 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:12:04 -0000
Subject: Godric's Hollow - Ancestries
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010402202316.0076e4a4@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9abiik+bv23@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:

> That brings me to the question about Voldemort being 'the last 
remaining
> ancestor of Slytherin'. I noted that as an error in word use, but 
then I
> recently found a web page saying that, although the word was 
corrected in
> some editions, later ones have the word 'ancestor' put back. Can 
someone
> confirm this? Also, was someone speaking at the time or was it the 
narrator?
> 
> Samaporn

Ah - there has been much debate about this 'flint' (or is it?) If you 
do a seach in the old e-groups messages for 'ancestor' or 'decendent' 
you will have more information that you know what to do with

storm




From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 04:15:37 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:15:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's mission
Message-ID: <F268yWtIIZS2TRqf69a00000002@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15866

Magda suggested:
>
>The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up
>a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
>a decoy for Voldemort.


But remember, the Dementers are on Voldies side.... and they won't be 
tricked by disguises.  Or even invisability cloaks...

So if the dementors are with Voldie, wouldn't they see right through Snapes 
disguise?

-Rachel-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 04:18:16 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:18:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's Hollow -- Name / Other orphans
Message-ID: <F524g3Sv0YKpDS7hx2700000299@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15867



>2)I SS, when Hagrid first arrives on the island and tells Harry the
>brief version of Harry's Bio; Hagrid mentions several other families
>who were murdered by Vold./DEs.  One such family is the Bones'(p. 56,
>Amer. pbk), later we see a Susan Bones (p. 119) sorted into
>Hufflepuff (in Harry's year).  If she's from the same family, that
>means there are others, like Harry and Neville, at Hogwarts who come
>from families destroyed by The Dark Lord.  Do we ever see this girl
>again?  (I didn't catch her in CoS or PoA so far.)  Has anybody
>noticed any other kids who might be in a similar situation to Harry
>and Neville?


JK said in an interview, i think it was the AOL one last fall, that Susan's 
Grandparents were killed....

No, we don't see her again, but that doesn't mean that we won't :)


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Tue Apr  3 04:27:33 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:27:33 -0000
Subject: Voldie's Lie Detector (formerly Snape's Mission)
In-Reply-To: <9ab6d3+v66s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9abjfl+vddr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15868

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Amanda, it is in the canon that Snape can detect lies.  He does so
> and he asserts the power explicitly with Harry in Book I, and with 
> Bryce in Book IV.  I believe that there are other instances, but 
they 
> do not come to mind right now.  Of course, Snape himself might be 
> lying, but he did detect the lies in those two instances, at least.
> 
> Haggridd

Opps! I think you mean Moldy Volde, not our hero Snape! careful now, 
legions of Snape fans will be after your blood. <g>

I see what you mean, but I don't know that this proves that Voldemort 
has some kind of magic ability to see through lies or read minds: I 
think it might be just that he is a very powerful manipulator, good 
at detecting hesitation etc.

still who knows? all may (or may not) be revealed in due course

storm




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 04:33:31 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:33:31 -0000
Subject: 12 Uses of Dragons Blood
Message-ID: <9abjqr+31ql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15869

Someone asked recently what the 12 uses of dragons blood are.  It is 
not mentioned anywhere, even in Fantastic Beasts (IIRC) but awhile 
back there was an interview with the guy who is writing the movie 
screenplay.  He said that one of the 12 uses of dragons blood was 
oven cleaner.  While it is possible that he just made that up 
himself, it does sound a lot like JKRs sense of humor.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 04:39:25 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 04:39:25 -0000
Subject: Voldie's Lie Detector
Message-ID: <9abk5t+tf5i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15870

Snuffles Magoo is indeed correct.  I mispoke.  I meant to say that 
Voldemort might have been lying.  I do believe that Voldemort has a 
power superior to that simply of a perceptive listener.  How Ordinary!

Haggridd




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr  3 03:43:18 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 23:43:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 12 Uses of Dragons Blood
In-Reply-To: <9abjqr+31ql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010402234318.00a0241c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15871

At 04:33 AM 4/3/01 -0000, you wrote:
>Someone asked recently what the 12 uses of dragons blood are.  It is 
>not mentioned anywhere, even in Fantastic Beasts (IIRC) 

Oh =P. (Hmm ... what does IIRC stand for again?) For some reason I thought
I read it on either the Bloomsbury or Comic Relief page that the answer was
in the Fantastic Beasts book...

>He said that one of the 12 uses of dragons blood was 
>oven cleaner.  While it is possible that he just made that up 
>himself, it does sound a lot like JKRs sense of humor.

Hehe, I read that too, although I had the impression that Rowling said it.
I think these late nights are taking their toll on me. As you say though,
it certainly sounds like her brand of humour - and most certainly
Dumbledore's too =).

Samaporn



From yumeno at mindspring.com  Tue Apr  3 04:53:22 2001
From: yumeno at mindspring.com (yumeno at mindspring.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:53:22 -0400
Subject: Random musings from a lurker
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.986273602.0.05858300@www.springmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15872


*comes out of lurkdom a tad shyly*

Hi, everyone. I've been lurking on this list for a month or two..or three. I don't quite remember. ^^; I'm Tavichan, and I just had a few random thoughts on the books that I hope haven't been covered before, so not as to bore everyone to death. *grins* Sooo..

1. Thought that popped into my head, though I don't know if it's been brought up. It's speculated in the books that Snape might have hated James because of his Quidditch talent. So, did Snape play Quidditch himself? (I have a really hard time picturing Snape playing Quidditch, however>

2. I woke up this morning with Arthur Weasley's comment about how many ways Muggles have found to live without magic ringing in my head. 
That started me thinking on just why many wizards consider themselves superior to Muggles just because they can do magic. But magic, in Harry's world, seems to depend almost entirely on using wands. Deprive a wizard of their wand and they lose their power and become no different from a Muggle. Broomsticks are enchanted to fly-Muggles might be able to fly them just as well as wizards. And I can only think of one wand-free spell that might not even be one-Lupin's handful of fire in the train scene in PoA. Not only that, but the wands themselves all contain parts of some magical creature-unicorns, dragons, phoenixes, etc. How much of the magic is from the wizard-and how much from the wand?
Thinking about Arthur's comment also made me wonder if perhaps in the future, the wizarding world might find themselves deprived of magic in some way and have to learn new ways of doing things. Maybe that's also part of why Dumbledore wanted Harry to stay with the Dursleys-so he has a Muggle upbringing, learns how to do things without using magic and isn't totally dependent on magic to do everything.

Any thoughts? ^-^

Tavichan



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 05:03:29 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 05:03:29 -0000
Subject: 12 Uses for Dragon's Blood
Message-ID: <9ablj1+68fr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15873

The oven cleaner use is definitely in the books, though I cannot 
remember exactly where.  I seem to recall that Hermione said it.

Haggridd




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 05:17:56 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 05:17:56 -0000
Subject: Class Schedules 
Message-ID: <9abme4+vcuc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15874

Class Schedules: 
Rereading POA I noticed that they do not go to each class everyday.  
The first day Harry and Ron went to two classes then lunch, and only 
two more were mentioned that day. Another day Potions and DADA were 
mentioned as first classes.  

Bugg  





From LynnP333 at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 06:07:38 2001
From: LynnP333 at aol.com (LynnP333 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:07:38 EDT
Subject: Snape's Task
Message-ID: <2f.133af2f7.27fac2aa@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15875

Hi everyone :-)
I've been reading this board for sometime, but this is my first post.  All of 
you are so thorough... there's not many unturned stones around this place! 

I hope I haven't forgotten some blatantly obvious reason why this theory 
would never pan out but... here's my latest thought on what Snape's task may 
be ... 
Although Snape's return to V's side (either willingly or as a spy) seems the 
most plausible to me ... what if Snape's task was to blackmail Lucius Malfoy 
and get to V that way?  It would still be just as dangerous to Snape if 
Malfoy didn't give in to the threats or betrayed him later.  Of course, this 
in no way ties into what we've read so far, I believe (beyond what Harry 
found out while he was under the invisibility cloak listening in when L. 
Malfoy was getting rid of some evidence with Mr. Borgen in the shop on 
Knockturn Alley [COS]), but it would be one way to bring in the past/secrets 
of the Marauder's and their contemporaries.  It would also allow Snape to 
continue teaching potions without worrying about being summoned by V.  His 
only worry would be if Malfoy betrayed him.  I just keep thinking that there 
are secrets from the past and "tangled webs" from the Marauder's generation 
that we haven't heard yet that could help or hinder the downfall of V.  Also, 
I believe Moody (aka. Barty Jr., but he was speaking of Moody's own past) 
said he was an old friend of both Snape and L. Malfoy.  More connections and 
possible avenues for infiltrating V using his own DE, L. Malfoy? 
Anyway... just throwing yet another theory among the pots of Polyjuice 
potion. <g!>

Also, I always wondered what happened after Moody dragged Draco down to see 
Snape after the bouncing ferret incident.  Did Snape actually bother with 
giving Draco any detention?  If Moody was a friend of both Snape *and* Lucius 
Malfoy, it must have put Snape in an awkward position.  Then again... I think 
it's really just Draco's wishful thinking that his father would really care 
if he was treated unfairly... kind of sad, actually.

Lynn  



From tobeybickle at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 06:10:14 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:10:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
Message-ID: <a1.136e318f.27fac346@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15876

In a message dated 4/2/01 11:08:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LynnP333 at aol.com 
writes:


> Although Snape's return to V's side (either willingly or as a spy) seems the 
> most plausible to me ... what if Snape's task was to blackmail Lucius 
> Malfoy 
> and get to V that way?  

And maybe use MacNair, too.. MOM has access to both of them! Although I'm not 
sure Snape would be the one to do this, it's certainly a nice idea.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr  3 05:22:15 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:22:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <2f.133af2f7.27fac2aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010403012215.00a0325c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15877

At 02:07 AM 4/3/01 EDT, you wrote:
 
>I believe Moody (aka. Barty Jr., but he was speaking of Moody's own past) 
>said he was an old friend of both Snape and L. Malfoy.  

I saw that as a multilayered statement. As Moody, I believe it was meant to
be an expression of barely-veiled antagonism that others were supposed to
perceive as arising from Moody's intense hatred of the Death Eaters.
Obviously, this is not too difficult for Crouch Jr. to act out, as he
certainly is disgusted by Malfoy's rejection of Voldemort after his
downfall, and in that vein, Snape as well. Hmm ... going back to the Snape
as a Death Eater spy topic ... it would seem that Snape's betrayal is not
secret. Or maybe he had a double-agent role, as someone suggested earlier,
that only Voldemort and a select few knew about. 

Ai ... it is late and this is making my head hurt =P.

Samaporn



From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr  3 06:49:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 01:49:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Feeling his pain
References: <9aat77+q0qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c0bc0a$4c071000$5614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15878




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Dumbledore could have heard about Harry's scar hurting from Sirius,
> -JF
***************
I had already checked this one out ... and although Harry did tell Sirius
about his scar hurting... he did not tell him about his dream of Voldemort.
***************

> > Milz wrote,
> >
> > > Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> > > whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous
> the
> > > scar hurts.
> >
> > ******************
 Can anyone quote me the lines where it says that Harry told him this?
Doreen
******************
Pg 521, English edition, Chapter 30: The Pensieve
harry speaking: "Then he did the Cruciatus curse on Wormtail - and my
scar hurt," said Harry.  "It woke me up, it hurt so badly."
<snip>
"I see," said Dumbledore quietly. "I see. Now, has your scar hurt at
any other time this year, excepting the time it woke you up over the
summer?"
"No, I - how did you know it wokeme up over the summer? said Harry,
astonished.
"You are not Sirius' only correspondent," said Dumbledore.
<snip>
"I have a theory, no more than that... It is my belief that your scar
hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is felling a
particularly stong surge of hatred."

Does that answer your question?
Catherine
**********************
Yes!!! Thank you!!! I guess I have just not read GoF enough times.
Doreen
**********************






From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 07:28:51 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 03:28:51 -0400
Subject: QTA
Message-ID: <001101c0bc0f$c13e70c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15879

I found it rather humorous to read the intro by AD.  Thief's Curse :)

A bookstore in Akron that I frequently talked about something along the same
lines--if you shoplifted, "shadow-creatures" would follow you out the store,
and into your life until you had righted the wrong.  I believed it was true.
I knew Gary.  It was also an occult bookshop.

A thought did occur to me, and I don't know if this was mentioned--I've been
avoiding all SPOILER posts.

I recall some of you talking about summer-school, due to the library return
list on the inside cover.  Couldn't Hedwig very easily brought said book
back to the school, and handed it (well...grins...winged it to) our dear
Librarian?  Who said the kids had to return?

If this has been discussed, please just give me a quick OL-email, and I'll
shut up!

Dee

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************


_________________________________________________________
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From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 08:25:04 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:25:04 -0000
Subject: Merchandise sneak preview
Message-ID: <9ac1d0+quin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15880

OhhhBoy!
I work at Kmart international headquarters, and later today, there is 
a Sneak Preview of Harry Potter Merchandise for all us lucky 
employees!
The Vendors who are going to be here are:
Bachman Trains (I know they are doing a Hogworts Express Train Set- 
my husband is a big model train fan.)
Trendmasters
Tiger Electronics (Hasbro)
Computer Expressions
Mattel
Lego Systems
Tri Coastal
Elmer's Products
Hallmark
Fab Acessories
Scolastic
Cedco Publishing
All Night Media
Johnson and Johnson
Intercontinental Art
P J Kids
Urban Station
Mead/ At a Glance
Wilton Industries
Enesco
Tak designs (?I'm not cure I wrote this correctly.)
Fetco International

I'll do the rounds, and report later on what I see- No way I'll get 
pictures, but I'll try to make note of anything exciting I see!

Ellen







From tobeybickle at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 09:36:17 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 05:36:17 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Quick=20questions=20=B4bo?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ut=20Hair?=
Message-ID: <fc.4323be1.27faf391@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15882

In a message dated 4/3/01 2:21:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jennifer.k at lycos.com writes:


> So, question # 1: is there ever said that Lee Jordan has black hair?
> 
> Question # 2: What?s the color of Vernons hair? I know he is said to 
> have black mustaches, but I think it?s stated somewhere that Dudley 
> inherited his blond hair as well. Is that so? It would otherwise be 
> understandable if he (dudley) got it from Petunia.
> 
> 

I don't believe Lee's hair color is ever stated. They just say he has dreds.

Dudley is blond, as is Petunia and Draco, and Vernon is supposed to have 
darkish grey hair, I believe. Hope that helps!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Apr  3 09:39:12 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:39:12 -0000
Subject: Questions about Hair
Message-ID: <9ac5o0+d0k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15883


 I?m working on this swedish Harry Potter site and there?s two 
questions I?d like someone to help me out with (for the character-
pages). If you know the answers, I?ll be ever so happy. :)

What color is Lee Jordans hair? Is there ever stated that it is 
black? I guess some of you know of the little colorful 
HarryPotterfigures one can adopt from... a certain page - I cannot 
remeber the namn! - to one?s own. The twins, Draco, Sirius for 
example. Le Jordan is one of these figures, and he is portrayed with 
black dreadlocks. 
 And in the trailer, at the end when Harry smile towards the camera, 
there?s a boy standing behind him with his back turned, having 
black dreds as well. I guessed he must be Lee.
So - is there ever said that Lee Jordan has black hair?

And: What?s the color of Vernons hair? I know he is said to 
have black mustaches, but I think it?s stated somewhere that Dudley 
inherited his blond hair as well (I cannot find it, which is driving 
me slightly crazy). Is that so? It would otherwise be 
understandable if he (dudley) got it from Petunia.

Beforehand thanks :) 

/Jennifer





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 11:03:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:03:43 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Voldie's_lie_detector_-_Harry=92s_Curious_Lack_of_Curiousity?=
Message-ID: <9acamf+4cjo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15884

Haggrid wrote:

>Amanda, it is in the canon that Snape can detect lies.  He does so
>and he asserts the power explicitly with Harry in Book I, and with 
>Bryce in Book IV.

You mean Voldemort, right?  Watch out--there are some passionate Snape 
lovers on this list, and typing "Snape" for "Voldemort" could prove as 
dangerous as running out your Polyjuice hour during a meeting with the 
Master!

He does assert it explicitly, but he's bluffing, IMHO.  We know the 
DEs have been successfully infiltrated in the past, so people do 
sometimes lie to V and get away with it.  His knowledge that Harry is 
lying about what he sees in the Mirror and that Frank is lying about 
someone at home knowing where he is are attributable to good 
old-fashioned, possibly magic-enhanced, intuition.  Dumbledore is very 
hard to lie too, also--that doesn't mean he can literally read every 
thought and know every falsehood.

BTW, welcome aboard, Haggridd!

Joywitch wrote:

>Isn't there a scene in PoA where Harry tells himself that if he wants 
>to win the next Quidditch match he has to get it together and stop 
>brooding about his parent's death?

Yes, after his first Patronus lesson.  Something like:  They're dead, 
he told himself, and listening to echoes of them isn't going to bring 
them back.  What a kid.  I love that bit.

I think your explanation fits what we know of Harry very well.  You 
aren't a psychotherapist by any chance, are you?  I wonder if there is 
a tension inside him between wanting to pump people for stories and 
not wanting to get lost in wishes.

Katie wrote:

>"little Tom Riddle"

Sounds like a rock song.  "Good Golly, Miss Molly."  Filk, anyone?

Off to wash the dishes with PoA on the Walkman,
Amy Z

---------------------------------------
 If only the hat had mentioned a house 
 for people who felt a bit queasy, 
 that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 11:10:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:10:29 -0000
Subject: Questions about Hair
In-Reply-To: <9ac5o0+d0k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9acb35+vko0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15885

JenniferK wrote:
 
>  I?m working on this swedish Harry Potter site 

Cool!  Post the URL to Announcements when it's up!

> 
> What color is Lee Jordans hair? Is there ever stated that it is 
> black? I guess some of you know of the little colorful 
> HarryPotterfigures one can adopt from... a certain page - I cannot 
> remeber the namn! - to one?s own. The twins, Draco, Sirius for 
> example. Le Jordan is one of these figures, and he is portrayed with 
> black dreadlocks. 
>  And in the trailer, at the end when Harry smile towards the camera, 
> there?s a boy standing behind him with his back turned, having 
> black dreds as well. I guessed he must be Lee.
> So - is there ever said that Lee Jordan has black hair?

I am 99% sure it doesn't say.  A lot of readers, myself included, 
picture him as black (-skinned, as in African descent), but that's 
just because of the dreadlocks.  He could be any race with any skin 
and hair color.

> And: What?s the color of Vernons hair? I know he is said to 
> have black mustaches, but I think it?s stated somewhere that Dudley 
> inherited his blond hair as well (I cannot find it, which is driving 
> me slightly crazy). 

Don't think so.  Dudley must've gotten his blond hair from Petunia 
(actually from both of them, to be precise, if I'm remembering my 
genetics correctly).

Amy Z
who wishes she could get dreads without looking silly

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
 "Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
 "Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 11:42:06 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 04:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <F268yWtIIZS2TRqf69a00000002@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010403114206.45679.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15886

> But remember, the Dementers are on Voldies side.... and they won't
> be tricked by disguises.  Or even invisability cloaks...
> So if the dementors are with Voldie, wouldn't they see right
> through Snapes disguise?

If memory serves, this is from Dumbledore's instructions to the
students in PoA not to wander outside the school after dark as the
Dementors would get them.  But I took it to mean that they would go
after anything they sensed was human, no matter who it was;
invisibility cloaks don't disguise your essential humanity, after
all.

Against this you have to put the Dementors' inability to figure out
that Sirius Black was transforming into a dog in Azkaban.  He says he
did it a number of times and they didn't tumble to it because they
couldn't read the vibes or whatever you want to call them.  If they
can't discover that a prisoner is turning into an animal practically
in front of them, I think Snape can risk it.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr  3 11:51:01 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:51:01 -0000
Subject: Questions about Hair
In-Reply-To: <9ac5o0+d0k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9acdf5+5fev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15887

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> 
> What color is Lee Jordans hair? Is there ever stated that it is 
> black? I guess some of you know of the little colorful 
> HarryPotterfigures one can adopt from... a certain page - I cannot 
> remeber the namn! - to one?s own. The twins, Draco, Sirius for 
> example. Le Jordan is one of these figures, and he is portrayed 
with 
> black dreadlocks. 
>  And in the trailer, at the end when Harry smile towards the 
camera, 
> there?s a boy standing behind him with his back turned, having 
> black dreds as well. I guessed he must be Lee.
> So - is there ever said that Lee Jordan has black hair?

Like another person who posted, I'm inclined to think Lee is of 
African or West-Indian descent, and therefore darkskinned.  I don't 
recall seeing an instance so far (I'm only on my first reread of book 
2, having finished book 1 twice) that indicates what color Lee's hair 
is. 

I know Angelina's black.  JKR actually comes right out and says that. 

Indigo
who has dreadlocks, is black, but has *brown* hair...going to grey.




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr  3 11:58:51 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:58:51 -0000
Subject: Wands and Magic : was Random Musings from a lurker
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.986273602.0.05858300@www.springmail.com>
Message-ID: <9acdtr+pphu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15888

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., yumeno at m... wrote:
> 
> *comes out of lurkdom a tad shyly*
> 
2. I woke up this morning with Arthur Weasley's comment about how 
many ways Muggles have found to live without magic ringing in my 
head. 
 That started me thinking on just why many wizards consider 
themselves superior to Muggles just because they can do magic. But 
magic, in Harry's world, seems to depend almost entirely on using 
wands. Deprive a wizard of their wand and they lose their power and 
become no different from a Muggle. 

Not entirely true.

Harry had several occasions had magickal things happen before he ever 
set foot in Hogwarts.

Ending up on the roof when he jumped to attempt a beating from Dudley 
and his bully boys.

Turning a teacher's wig blue.

His hair growing back overnight after Petunia cut it to this horrible 
near-bald state.  

Letting the snake out so he could see Brazil (after Dudley had hit 
Harry)

Neville also had various minor dangers thrust upon him by relatives 
attempting to force the magic out of him.  The one that worked 
without Neville nearly getting injured was when his uncle dropped him 
upside down out a window and Neville bounced. 

Plus, having a wand doesn't necessarily mean your magic is all that 
good. Gilderoy Lockhart (feh!) turned Harry's arm boneless and 
rubbery and at least once the wand got all wobbly and jumped out of 
his grip or was dropped.  

Broomsticks are enchanted to fly-Muggles might be able to fly them 
just as well as wizards. And I can only think of one wand-free spell 
that might not even be one-Lupin's handful of fire in the train scene 
in PoA. Not only that, but the wands themselves all contain parts of 
some magical creature-unicorns, dragons, phoenixes, etc. How much of 
the magic is from the wizard-and how much from the wand?

There's also a bunch of enchanted stuff.  Arthur Weasley's job is to 
make sure wizardstuff that could be Muggle stuff doesn't get into 
Muggle hands...like the tea-set that went berserk and the shrinking 
keys.

Indigo






From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 12:10:58 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:10:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 Uses for Dragon's Blood
References: <9ablj1+68fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC9BDD2.11AE28AC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15889

Haggridd wrote:

> The oven cleaner use is definitely in the books, though I cannot
> remember exactly where.  I seem to recall that Hermione said it.

I really think I'd have remembered that---please, please give pages, or
at least chapters, or at the very least which book, if at all possible,
when you reference canon!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 12:32:25 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:32:25 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task/Mission
In-Reply-To: <9abc75+l31r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9acfsp+c3sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15890

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Koinonia, I agree with you that I hadn't considered other 
> possibilities than Snape's returning to spy on Voldemort.  Your 
idea 
> of his becoming Harry as a decoy is superb.  Doreen's idea of a 
> mission to the Dementors also strikes me as necessary and 
plausible.  
>  
> I maintain, however, that JKR has imbued Voldemort witht the power 
to 
> detect all lies, perhaps in order to make situations as we are 
> discussing now not to be trivial in solution.  It is documented in 
> several instances in the canon:  at the end of Philosopher's Stone 
> with Harry; at the beginning of Goblet of Fire with Bryce and, I 
> believe, with Wormtail. What is even more compelling is that
> Voldemort 
> himself asserted this as his power; he didn't simply deduce that 
the 
> others were lying.
> 

Well, we know of one instance when Voldy did *not* detect a lie - 
when he took Snape to be loyal to him while Snape was spying for the 
good side. 
Voldy no doubt has great powers and great insight. In some 
situations, confronting certain people, he (I almost wrote "He"; soon 
I'll be referring to him as "You Know Who") does sense lies and 
evasions. That doesn't mean that in all situations, confronting all 
people, he will always detect lies. 

Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 12:37:22 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:37:22 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <20010403114206.45679.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9acg62+34hr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15891

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > But remember, the Dementers are on Voldies side.... and they won't
> > be tricked by disguises.  Or even invisability cloaks...
> > So if the dementors are with Voldie, wouldn't they see right
> > through Snapes disguise?
> 
> If memory serves, this is from Dumbledore's instructions to the
> students in PoA not to wander outside the school after dark as the
> Dementors would get them.  But I took it to mean that they would go
> after anything they sensed was human, no matter who it was;
> invisibility cloaks don't disguise your essential humanity, after
> all.
> 
> Against this you have to put the Dementors' inability to figure out
> that Sirius Black was transforming into a dog in Azkaban.  He says 
he
> did it a number of times and they didn't tumble to it because they
> couldn't read the vibes or whatever you want to call them.  If they
> can't discover that a prisoner is turning into an animal practically
> in front of them, I think Snape can risk it.
> 

Not to mention them being fooled by polyjuice transformation - when 
BC Jr. was replaced by his mother in Azkaban.

Naama




From donna.swope at amd.com  Tue Apr  3 13:00:13 2001
From: donna.swope at amd.com (donna.swope at amd.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:00:13 -0500
Subject: HP merchandise
Message-ID: <6FB0FE3EBD53D211A94E00805F1958E901D746A0@txexmta4.amd.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15892

FYI, my daughter was in Sears yesterday and called me to say they have a
line of sheets, pillowcases, comforters and towels with Harry themes.






From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 13:14:25 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:14:25 -0000
Subject: Class Schedules
In-Reply-To: <9abme4+vcuc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9acibh+44tk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15893

In GoF Ron also expressed frustration over the fact that they did not 
have DADA until Thursday and would have to wait to experience Moody's 
teaching. This would make for a much more reasonable schedule.

--S


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Class Schedules: 
> Rereading POA I noticed that they do not go to each class 
everyday.  
> The first day Harry and Ron went to two classes then lunch, and 
only 
> two more were mentioned that day. Another day Potions and DADA were 
> mentioned as first classes.  
> 
> Bugg




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr  3 14:57:52 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:57:52 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission
In-Reply-To: <9acg62+34hr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9acodg+4m2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15894

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > Against this you have to put the Dementors' inability to figure 
out
> > that Sirius Black was transforming into a dog in Azkaban.  He 
says 
> he
> > did it a number of times and they didn't tumble to it because they
> > couldn't read the vibes or whatever you want to call them.  If 
they
> > can't discover that a prisoner is turning into an animal 
practically
> > in front of them, I think Snape can risk it.
> > 
> 
> Not to mention them being fooled by polyjuice transformation - when 
> BC Jr. was replaced by his mother in Azkaban.
> 
> Naama

It was probably easier for Mrs. Crouch to fool the Dementors.  She 
remained human and was having no small amount of despair herself.  
Her son, although she'd talked her husband into trading their places, 
was a convicted Death Eater. Her husband was horrified that their son 
had gone so astray.  And she was dying.  

The Dementors probably got a lovely bit of nasty sad vibes off her 
anyway.  

As I recall, Sirius' advantage was that a dog's mind is different 
enough from a human's that the Dementors couldn't read him.  

And I daresay the background noise of the other prisoners depression 
and despair made a good cover for our dead sexy Sirius. 

Indigo 
Sirius Fangirl. Woof! 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 15:47:21 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:47:21 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Snape=92s_task_(Harry,_Moody,_Dementors)_-_Wands?=
Message-ID: <9acra9+ms7o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15895

Magda suggested:

>The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up
>a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry as
>a decoy for Voldemort.

>No wonder he went pale.

Angela cackled:

>Bwa ha ha! He'd have to be nice to the Gryffindors!

But he'd finally get his day on the Quidditch field!  (Read in a 
Snapelike sneer:) Take that, James Bigshot Potter!

Lynn wrote:

>I believe Moody (aka. Barty Jr., but he was speaking of Moody's own 
past) 
>said he was an old friend of both Snape and L. Malfoy.

I think he was being sarcastic, though Harry & Co. might not pick up 
on the sarcasm about Snape because they don't know at that point that 
he was a DE.  "An old friend" = "one of those people I used to hunt 
down."  The double meaning is that as Moody he's being facetious, 
while as Crouch Jr. he means it literally.  (Well, both Moody and 
Crouch Jr. would hate Snape, for opposite reasons-?Moody because 
Snape was a DE, and Crouch because Snape stopped being one.  
Switching sides makes life very difficult.)

Magda wrote:

> Against this you have to put the Dementors' inability to figure out
> that Sirius Black was transforming into a dog in Azkaban. 

Naama added:

>Not to mention them being fooled by polyjuice transformation - when
>BC Jr. was replaced by his mother in Azkaban.

Good points.  What =do= Dementors sense?  JKR's left it vague enough 
for her to get away with a plot that involves sneaking by them in 
lots of ways we haven't seen yet.

One thing I took from their obliviousness to Sirius's transformations 
and Jr./Mom Crouch's switch is that they are not at all good guards 
in the way we generally expect of a prison guard.  In a Muggle 
prison, every prisoner is supposed to be accounted for by name a 
couple of times a day.  The Dementors don't seem able to identify a 
particular person?they let Crouch Jr. out because he seemed the same 
to them as the person who came in, simply because he was very ill.  
Their methods are so powerful that this little quirk doesn't 
matter...most of the time.

They did know when Sirius escaped, so they must have some kind of 
head count or way of sensing when someone has left the island.  There 
might be human guards to keep track.  I bet that once Sirius's story 
is known, they'll run all future prisoners through an Animagus test.  
(Rita could've escaped easily from a prison that thought bars and 
water were a barrier.  They'd have to put her in a tiny glass cell.)

Tavichan delurked to speculate:

>But magic, in Harry's world, seems to
>depend almost entirely on using wands. Deprive a wizard of their 
wand and they
>lose their power and become no different from a Muggle. Broomsticks 
are
>enchanted to fly-Muggles might be able to fly them just as well as 
wizards. And
>I can only think of one wand-free spell that might not even be one-
Lupin's
>handful of fire in the train scene in PoA. Not only that, but the 
wands
>themselves all contain parts of some magical creature-unicorns, 
dragons,
>phoenixes, etc. How much of the magic is from the wizard-and how 
much from the
>wand?

There are some ways of doing magic that don't seem to involve a 
wand:  divination, potions, Animagus transfigurations (Sirius didn't 
need his wand to transform back and forth in Azkaban).  Some, like 
these, are full-fledged wandless magic, while others, like Harry's 
breaking Marge's wineglass and inflating Marge herself, are the kind 
of uncontrolled magic that JKR recently referred to in the Comic 
Relief chat, I believe it was; she was asked whether you can do magic 
without a wand, and she said yes, but it generally takes a wand to 
focus and control it. 

These cases, plus the background knowledge that there is some kind of 
qualitative difference between wizards and Muggles/Squibs (as seen in 
the case of young wizards who do magic without knowing how, or even 
that it exists, e.g. Harry and Colin), show that it's not all the 
wand?it's partly the witch or wizard.  How much of each?  I wouldn't 
venture to guess, but the magic definitely isn't all in the wand.

Some magical objects do their thing even in the hands of Muggles, 
e.g. the dangerous spouting teapot that caused Arthur's office 
trouble on one occasion (CoS).  It seems likely that not all of them 
do, however.  A Muggle might pick up a wand or a broomstick and have 
nothing whatsoever happen.  A broomstick is different from a wand; 
it's basically just wood that's been charmed.  It might be possible 
to charm it in such a way that it takes magical ability on the user's 
part to activate it; if this is possible, I would think that if the 
Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office would insist on it so that an 
innocent Muggle doesn't pick up a Firebolt and find herself going 150 
mph within 10 seconds . . .

Still hoping I'll pick up an innocent-looking piece of wood one day 
and it'll send out sparks,
Amy Z






From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr  3 16:36:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:36:53 -0500
Subject: Lucius' response (was Snape's Task)
References: <2f.133af2f7.27fac2aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AC9FC25.FCCB8330@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15896

LynnP333 at aol.com wrote:

> I think it's really just Draco's wishful thinking that his father
> would really care if he was treated unfairly... kind of sad, actually.

In my opinion, Lucius would be much more concerned that a member of the
Malfoy family had been humiliated, especially by Moody. By that, I mean
the family status would be his first concern. He'd probably care that it
had been Draco, but that would come a beat later in his reaction. I bet.

Unless he likes ferrets.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr  3 17:44:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:44:27 -0000
Subject: 12 Uses for Dragon's Blood
In-Reply-To: <3AC9BDD2.11AE28AC@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ad25r+ik7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15897

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > The oven cleaner use is definitely in the books, though I cannot
> > remember exactly where.  I seem to recall that Hermione said it.
> 
> I really think I'd have remembered that---please, please give 
pages, or
> at least chapters, or at the very least which book, if at all 
possible,
> when you reference canon!
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
I second Amandas request, and would add that it applies to all of 
us.  There have been several posts lately where people have INSISTED 
that it says something or other in the canon, but have not said 
where.  If you say that something appears in the books, but you cant 
say where and no one else remembers it, people are not going to take 
your posts very seriously.

Also, there have been a number of posts lately along the lines of 
"Thanks for the info, snape341293," and "LOL, goodweasley300."  
PLEASE remember that if you have something to say to ONLY ONE OR TWO 
people that you can email them directly instead of posting to the 
whole group.

And, yes, I know I do not have the authority to post these sorts of 
ADMIN-type messages, but although I am not a moderator, I play one on 
TV (and sometimes on Wizarding Wireless Radio).


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 17:45:57 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:45:57 -0000
Subject: Merchandise sneak preview
In-Reply-To: <9ac1d0+quin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15898

Ohg Boy! I'm still geeked from seeinga ll the wonderfull merchandise 
that is going to be out there in september.

I can't, for proprietorial reasons, go into details, but suffice it 
to say that you will be able to outfit your kds from the skin out 
completely in Harry Potter merchandise.

Soaps and shampoos, underwear, socks, shirts, coats, gloves, hats 
purses, backpacks, jewelry, stationary, stickers, stamps, boxes, 
picture frames, Sleeping Bags, pillows, sheets, mouse pads, binders, 
Cosumes and accessories and of course, lots and lots of wonderfull 
toys! (Just wait till you see the Lego stuff!)  Yippeee!  And it all 
looked nicely done to me.  Nothing cheap or shoddy.  

There is plenty of new artwork being used too- not all the same stuff 
that we are seeing used over and over on everything now.  Some of it 
has a very clean, sleek look that I like a lot! (I am not all that 
fond of the calendar and poster artwork that is being used now.)  
Oh!  there was some mechandise with Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw emblems 
on it too- not nearly as much as Gryf and Slyth, but it was there!

The most exciting part was an extended version of the trailer that 
showed a very clear view of Privet drive, with the mail- owl flying 
up and landing, and slightly longer shots of each of the scenes in 
the movie trailer- easier to get a good look at the details in the 
scenes that they show in the longer takes on a large screen.

There was also a room full of stills from the movie- including wider 
shots of some of the scenes in the trailer- here is what caught my 
eye....

In the scene with Hermione floating the feather, Flitwick is standing 
off to the left, on top of his desk, coaching the class.  Flitwick is 
bald, with full muttonchop whiskers- very distictive looking.  He 
reminds me of an illustration I once saw of an aged Bilbo Baggins.

I can also say that Wands, in the movie, have definate handles.  
Hermiones handle is lighter colored than the shaft of the wand, 
shaped slightly, and with a ridge where it joins onto the handle.  

Each house has, as part of it's uniform, a tie in it's own colors.  
The red and gold ones (Griffindor) are fairly easy to spot in the 
trailer, but in the pictures of the flying class, some students 
seemed to be wearing different colored ties.  I started examining the 
ties in each still, and in one, showing Ron, Harry, Hermione and 
Draco in the Forbidden forest (Yes, Hermione, not Neville!)  Draco 
was clearly wearing a Green and silver striped tie.  

There was a lovely shot of Ron, seated in the train, with Scabbers on 
his lap.  Next to him was a pile of sweets, and there were several 
long, multicolored Gummie Worms laid across his leg- This must be 
Jelly Slugs!  They were very long, and thin, like Gummi Nitecrawlers, 
not shaped like I think of slugs as being shaped. 

There was also a still of all the students gathered in the great 
hall, wearing their pointed wizard hats.  I think this is from the 
scene in the trailer where the hats are thrown into the air.  VEry 
neat to see all the pointe hats actually being worn.  They are not 
pervectly cone shaped, but rather crumples, with twisted or crooked 
points.   Very Cool.  None of the other pictures showed students 
wearing hats.

The rat playing Scabbers is definately a male rat- I figured they 
would probably use a female rat, since they are more photogenic, but 
the rat in the picture is definately a male, if neutered. - Well they 
<had> to compromise there- male rats have very, um , 
obvoius  "jellybeans"  which are not in evidence.  

In the Flying Lessons picture, thre was a great shot of Madame Hooch- 
I love her costume!  Under her open fronted robes, she wears a tudor 
inspired jumper over a button down collared shirt with tie, and a 
simply bodacious pair of high leather boots and Gauntlets.  A very 
strong looking lady!

One thing I searched for, and couldn't spot in any picture, was a 
shot showing any hint of Harry's scar- It's always hidden by his 
bangs!  I imagine it's intentional, keeping it under wraps and all, 
but I really wonder how they end up portraying it...  In the books, 
after all, it is usually the first thing anyone notices about him- 
his identifying mark.  If anyone comes up with a picture showing it, 
please share, I'm dying to see....

So, I think we are all going to be overwhelmed by all the mechandise 
coming out in September.  Kmart is going to be mechandising it 
heavily, and I imagine other stores will be doing the same.  I just 
hope we don't get overloaded.....

Ellen




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Apr  3 17:55:24 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:55:24 -0000
Subject: Questions about Hair
In-Reply-To: <9ac5o0+d0k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ad2qc+pcb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15899

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> What color is Lee Jordans hair? Is there ever stated that it is 
> black? I guess some of you know of the little colorful 
> HarryPotterfigures one can adopt from... a certain page - I cannot 
> remeber the namn! - to one?s own. The twins, Draco, Sirius for 
> example. Le Jordan is one of these figures, and he is portrayed 
with 
> black dreadlocks. 
>  And in the trailer, at the end when Harry smile towards the 
camera, 
> there?s a boy standing behind him with his back turned, having 
> black dreds as well. I guessed he must be Lee.
> So - is there ever said that Lee Jordan has black hair?

His hair colour is never mentioned. In PS, "The Journey from Platform 
nine and three quarters," he is described as having dreadlocks, but 
that's all.



Dai




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Tue Apr  3 18:16:03 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:16:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Merchandise sneak preview
In-Reply-To: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com>
References: <9ac1d0+quin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010403141033.050250b0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15900

At 05:45 PM 04/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>In the scene with Hermione floating the feather, Flitwick is standing
>off to the left, on top of his desk, coaching the class.  Flitwick is
>bald, with full muttonchop whiskers- very distictive looking.  He
>reminds me of an illustration I once saw of an aged Bilbo Baggins.

Let me guess - this is what he looked like:
http://www.hollywood-costumes.com/pics/flitwick.jpg

>I can also say that Wands, in the movie, have definate handles.
>Hermiones handle is lighter colored than the shaft of the wand,
>shaped slightly, and with a ridge where it joins onto the handle.

Again, like this?
http://www.hollywood-costumes.com/pics/wands.jpg
(left-to-right - Harry's, Ron's, and Hermione's)

For anyone who's wondering WHAT the above are, Rubies Costumes is doing the 
entire Harry Potter line of costumes this season:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_03_18_archive.html#2856793

According to various reports, there are more masks to come including the 
troll, Snape, goblins etc. I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed with the 
detail.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.
http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com     Herb.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr  3 18:29:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:29:20 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Merchandise Postings belong on HPFGU-Announcements
Message-ID: <3ACA1680.9AC1C470@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15901

Hi everyone --

Just a reminder that merchandise updates do belong on the Announcements
list, rather than the main group.  If you haven't joined our sister
group, Announcements, now is a *wonderful* time to do so!  Details at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

You can also review/read about what goes where (what goes to
Announcements & what goes to OT-Chatter) in the Files section of this
group.

Just a reminder that the goals are (a) keep the message volume
manageable for our large group of members, and (b) attempt to confine
discussions on the main group to "canon" discussions (threads relating
to the books).  Tangentially-related topics such as merchandise, fanfic,
news links, etc. have been farmed off to Announcements and/or
OT-Chatter.

Thanks for your cooperation!

Penny
The Mod Squad




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr  3 18:26:52 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:26:52 -0400
Subject: Magical Objects
References: <9acra9+ms7o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACA15EC.746608D8@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15902

Amy Z wrote:

> Some magical objects do their thing even in the hands of Muggles,
> e.g. the dangerous spouting teapot that caused Arthur's office
> trouble on one occasion (CoS).  It seems likely that not all of them
> do, however.  A Muggle might pick up a wand or a broomstick and have
> nothing whatsoever happen.  A broomstick is different from a wand;
> it's basically just wood that's been charmed.  It might be possible
> to charm it in such a way that it takes magical ability on the user's
> part to activate it; if this is possible, I would think that if the
> Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office would insist on it so that an
> innocent Muggle doesn't pick up a Firebolt and find herself going 150
> mph within 10 seconds . . .

I tend to think that you =do= have to have magical ability in
order to fly a broomstick; or at least, that natural ability
counts for something.  Otherwise you wouldn't have such big
differences in how well the students could fly in their very
first class.

A wizard/witch's wand appears to act as a focus and possibly an
amplifier for magic.  JKR said in one of her recent interviews
that a witch or wizard can do magic without a wand, but not as
well.  And of course, as has already been pointed out, some forms
of magic (such as potions) don't use wands at all.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 20:08:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 20:08:19 -0000
Subject: Rat anatomy ( was Merchandise sneak preview)
In-Reply-To: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9adajj+fftg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15903

Ellen wrote:

> The rat playing Scabbers is definately a male rat- I figured they 
> would probably use a female rat, since they are more photogenic, 
but 
> the rat in the picture is definately a male, if neutered. - Well 
they 
> <had> to compromise there- male rats have very, um , 
> obvoius  "jellybeans"  which are not in evidence.  

Well, fortunately this fact will escape most fans, because even 
diehard HP nitpickers won't necessarily know enough about rat anatomy 
to pick up on the, uh, omission.  I'm sure I would never have 
noticed.  But now that we know . . .

. . . does this mean Peter has had a similar operation?  After all, 
when the man Peter cut off his finger, the rat Wormtail lost his too.

Maybe it's a Death Eater initiation rite.

Amy Z




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 20:12:59 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:12:59 -0400
Subject: Male Scabbers... or not?
References: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0bc7a$7ad53900$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15904

<<The rat playing Scabbers is definately a male rat- I figured they
would probably use a female rat, since they are more photogenic, but
the rat in the picture is definately a male, if neutered. - Well they
<had> to compromise there- male rats have very, um ,
obvoius  "jellybeans"  which are not in evidence.  >>

Would a wizard family neuter their pets?  Hence the "ahem" disappearance in
the movie of any indications?

Couldn't you just picture poor Peter now, with Percy taking him to Diagon
Alley, and saying, Ok, Mr. Vet, I want to fix him.  And he's unable to
transform back to stop it or he'll be in some very horrid trouble!

Dee
:)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 20:22:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 20:22:27 -0000
Subject: Male Scabbers... or not?
In-Reply-To: <002701c0bc7a$7ad53900$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9adbe3+p0t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15905

Dee wrote:

> Would a wizard family neuter their pets?  Hence the "ahem" 
disappearance in
> the movie of any indications?
> 
> Couldn't you just picture poor Peter now, with Percy taking him to 
Diagon
> Alley, and saying, Ok, Mr. Vet, I want to fix him.  And he's unable 
to
> transform back to stop it or he'll be in some very horrid trouble!

Does it say something about this list that the first two responses to 
Ellen's long post, which was filled with luscious details about Jelly 
Slugs and Flitwick's sideburns and scar invisibility, both zeroed in 
on Scabbers' genitalia?

Dee, the image of Peter at the vet is too precious.  Much better than 
explaining it via a Death Eater initiation.

Amy Z




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 21:02:06 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:02:06 -0400
Subject: Dai, the name and questions of lineage--coincidence?
References: <9ad7kj+8sdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003901c0bc81$57eb10c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15906

OH, Dai, It was nice to see your name in Quidditch!  Is it a popular name in
England?  (See About the Author) :)

Also noted on page 14 (USA) is that Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow
invented the snitch.  Coincidence?  Or a relative of that famous Seeker?

Is it literally in his blood?

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  3 22:12:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:12:43 -0000
Subject: 12 Uses of Dragon's Bolood & Voldie's Lie Detector
Message-ID: <9adhsr+1s3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15907

I will look up the page citation for the use of Dragon's blood for 
oven cleaner.  I was without my books at the time of that post--and 
now, as well.

Naama wrote that Voldemort had not detected when Snape had spied on 
him previously, and deduced therefrom that Voldemort could not detect 
all lies.  In response, I would say that it would depend on whether 
LV had asked Snape a direct incriminating question, and received a 
lying answer.  It is not suggested that LV can detect all deceptive 
actions.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  3 22:20:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:20:06 -0000
Subject: 12 Uses of Dragon's Bolood & Voldie's Lie Detector
In-Reply-To: <9adhsr+1s3o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9adiam+iqnf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15908

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I will look up the page citation for the use of Dragon's blood for 
> oven cleaner.  I was without my books at the time of that post--and 
> now, as well.

Didn't someone on this list use to have "The 12th use of dragon blood 
is oven cleaner" as their sig?  If so, speak now and tell us where it 
came from!  I would bet the farm that it isn't in canon.  Luckily for 
me this is no risk, as I don't own a farm.

> 
> Naama wrote that Voldemort had not detected when Snape had spied on 
> him previously, and deduced therefrom that Voldemort could not 
detect 
> all lies.  In response, I would say that it would depend on whether 
> LV had asked Snape a direct incriminating question, and received a 
> lying answer.  It is not suggested that LV can detect all deceptive 
> actions.

Still, sooner or later if you're a spy, you're going to lie outright, 
because so much of what you do each day has to remain secret.  
LV: "Where are you going?"  (Snape thinks:  "I'm going to Hogwarts to 
give Dumbledore the latest news, you scumsucking creep.")  Snape 
says:  "I'm going to Aberdeen to torture some Muggles, Master."

Amy Z




From clugo at ukonline.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 00:56:10 2001
From: clugo at ukonline.co.uk (clugo at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 00:56:10 -0000
Subject: Wizard War - was : Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9abber+k9h1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9adrfa+r44h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15909

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:

> I will feel very silly if it ends up that Snape was taking that 
> Polyjuice Potion!
> 
> Koinonia

(Wanted to say sorry to Koinonia for the mis-attribution yesterday 
and thanks for being gracious about it :) and that I would bet my new 
HP folder&notebook that polyjuice won't recurr at least for a while)

I am wondering about the full scale Wizard Wizard war (WWII ?) 
pitching Voldemorteers against Dumblore etc that it seems is expected 
to ensue in Book 5.  Is the finale of the books going to be the 
defeat of Voldmorte - as in will the war last for three books? I had 
wondered if Voldemorte might actually be defeated in book 5, maybe 
revealing an older or entirely different enemy.  On the other hand I 
suppose it took 11 years to defeat him last time so maybe he can last 
for 3 books.  I think I just don't want all out fighting for the rest 
of the series - I much prefer quidditch :)

Chris 






From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Apr  4 01:16:36 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:16:36 EDT
Subject: HP News from NASA!
Message-ID: <31.12c22ae4.27fbcff4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15910

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010401.html

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Apr  4 01:18:46 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:18:46 EDT
Subject: oops!
Message-ID: <fd.4411124.27fbd076@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15911

my bad, seriously!

I clicked on the wrong line of my address book.  Please don't beat me ... or 
at least do it gently and make an example of me so no one else commits the 
same transgression!  I promise to send myself to bed early.

I sincerely apologize for the original transgression and for adding even more 
to your email inboxes by having to apologize!

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys~



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr  4 01:12:11 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 01:12:11 -0000
Subject: Male Scabbers... or not?
In-Reply-To: <002701c0bc7a$7ad53900$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9adsdb+pl19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15912

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:

> 
> Couldn't you just picture poor Peter now, with Percy taking him to 
Diagon
> Alley, and saying, Ok, Mr. Vet, I want to fix him.  And he's unable 
to
> transform back to stop it or he'll be in some very horrid trouble!
> 

"Voldemort raised his wand and whirled it through the air. A streak 
of what looked like molten silver hung shining in the wand's 
wake..Momentarily shapeless, it writhed and then formed itself into a 
gleaming replica of a human **************'
My Lord," Wormtail whispered. "Master...it is beautiful...thank 
you....thank you...."

  - GoF, the Unexpurgated Edition 




From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 04:20:16 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 04:20:16 -0000
Subject: Rat anatomy 
In-Reply-To: <9adajj+fftg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ae7e0+k3uj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15913

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Well, fortunately this fact will escape most fans, because even 
> diehard HP nitpickers won't necessarily know enough about rat 
anatomy 
> to pick up on the, uh, omission.  I'm sure I would never have 
> noticed.  But now that we know . . .
> 
> . . . does this mean Peter has had a similar operation?  After all, 
> when the man Peter cut off his finger, the rat Wormtail lost his 
too.
> 
> Maybe it's a Death Eater initiation rite.
> 
Yeah, I was kind of hinting at this, but I didn't have the guts to 
come right out and say; "This confirms my suspicion that Peter 
Pettigrew has no balls!."  but of course, I'd never say that, nope! 
not me!

Ellen




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 04:27:30 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 04:27:30 -0000
Subject: Department of Mysteries
Message-ID: <9ae7ri+avmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15914

I don't know if this has already been brought up, but I was listening 
to the audio version of GoF in my car today, and I picked up on the 
mention of a Department of Mysteries at the MoM. Its employees are 
known as "Unspeakables."

Now, I'm guessing that we're not talking about mysteries as in "What 
IS in spam, anyway?" So what is the Department of Mysteries? I'm 
guessing that at some point we'll find out, because there's this 
mention, and also a mention in FBWFT. Is it like the wizarding CIA? 
Is it a bit like the ID in Lori's PoU? And if it IS similar to the 
CIA, what will its role in the war against Voldemort be? What was it 
the first time around? How much control does Fudge have over this 
particular division? Does it operate more independently than some of 
the other departments?

What's everyone's thoughts on this topic?

Stacy




From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 04:35:52 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 04:35:52 -0000
Subject: More Details/ was Male Scabbers... or not?
In-Reply-To: <9adbe3+p0t1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ae8b8+hu3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15915

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Does it say something about this list that the first two responses 
to 
> Ellen's long post, which was filled with luscious details about 
Jelly 
> Slugs and Flitwick's sideburns and scar invisibility, both zeroed 
in 
> on Scabbers' genitalia?
> 
> Dee, the image of Peter at the vet is too precious.  Much better 
than 
> explaining it via a Death Eater initiation.
> 
> Amy Z

Oh, some more things I forgot to mention, in my rush to type out my 
first impressions:

The impression I got of Madame Hooch's cosume is that it is very 
similar to some Illuminations I have seen of Tudor Falconeers 
(Handlers of hunting Hawks- I don't know if I spelled it right.)  The 
knee length jumper, as well as her over-robe, are very similar to 
Male Tudor fashions.  The high boots and the Leather gauntlets, 
well!  She's definately one tough lady!

Harry's hair Just didn't look messy in any of the pictures I studied- 
messier perhaps than the slicked and gelled fashions worn by his 
cousin, and by Draco, but not what I'd call unruly.

Another image that keeps popping into my head is the picture they had 
of Harry and Neville, both loooking a little singed, just after 
Neville destroys his feather in charms class.  The Subtitle was 
something like "Um, professor, I think we need another feather.."  
Neville was to the right of Harry in the picture.  (Harry's left hand 
side.)  So I think we can probably assume that Neville is seated next 
to Harry in Potions Class.  I'd have to look at the pictures from the 
trailer again to confirm this tho.  I't won't be easy for me to to 
identify Neville from this still because he was thoroughly singed and 
be-sooted.  

Well, gotta run, If any more tantalizing details pop into my head, 
I'll try to pass them along. 

I'm still bouncing off the walls- I came into work tonight, and my co-
workers had left me four of the Mylar baloons that were used to 
decorate the displays- I have two Griffindor/Harry grabbing the 
snitch, and two of Hogwart Crest/ arriving by Boat!  Yippee!  I love 
my co-workers- they know what a nut I am!

Ellen




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  4 05:02:45 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:02:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard War - was : Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9adrfa+r44h@eGroups.com>
References: <9abber+k9h1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010403215743.0301bc80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15916

At 12:56 AM 4/4/01 +0000, clugo at ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>On the other hand I
>suppose it took 11 years to defeat him last time so maybe he can last
>for 3 books.  I think I just don't want all out fighting for the rest
>of the series - I much prefer quidditch :)

Yeah, I know what you mean -- I'm afraid of how dark the last 3 books
may be... Will there be no more of Quidditch, new creatures of Hagrid's
or other lighter, fun things?

My hope is that V may suffer a short-term defeat in Book 5, then Book 6
will be a "breather" while V and the DE's lick their wounds, and then we'll
have the Final Battle in Book 7.



                                                 -- Dave




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr  4 06:15:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 01:15:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Male Scabbers... or not?
References: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com> <002701c0bc7a$7ad53900$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <00d301c0bcce$b21ffea0$1b14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15917

Would a wizard family neuter their pets?  Hence the "ahem" disappearance in
the movie of any indications?

Couldn't you just picture poor Peter now, with Percy taking him to Diagon
Alley, and saying, Ok, Mr. Vet, I want to fix him.  And he's unable to
transform back to stop it or he'll be in some very horrid trouble!

Dee
:)
****************
The little rat deserves to be neutered!  I think less of him than I do
Malfoy.
Doreen
****************


_________________________________________________________
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From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:03:21 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:03:21 -0000
Subject: Merchandise sneak preview
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010403141033.050250b0@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9aekg9+momd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15918

Well, yes, those are the costumes I saw yesterday- since they are out 
on the web, I guess I can say more about them!

The costume sets look pretty nice- tho the wands and broomsticks look 
way too chunky and cartoonish for my tastes.  The real props for the 
movie look very "real", but the costume versions do accurately 
reflect a cartoon version of the actual prop.  Hermiones wand has the 
light colored handle, Ron's wand is suitably ragged and worn looking, 
looking, the third wand there depicts Harrys, if I recall correctly.

The mask is a good depiction of what Flitwick looks like- I didn't 
see the actual flitwick mask, but that picture looks much like the 
still from the movie.  I did get to see the Hagrid Mask, and it looks 
much beter than the flitwick mask, in my opinion.  If the production 
masks and costumes look as good as the pre-production samples, you 
are all going to be thrilled!

I wasn't impresses by the pictures of McGonnagal robes (A funny 
looking print pattern) Dumbledores robes (Again, a print is a poor 
substitute for the rich brocade of the actual costume) but the Hagrid 
costumes wure Ok, and the Snape, Hermione, and Harry stuff was pretty 
good for "off the shelf" costumes. (Speaking as an avid costumer!)

The accessories were what I thought was the best- Robe clasps 
with "H"' on each side, and Broomsticks and wands, that while chunky 
and cartoonish (Probably for safety- I can just hear some mom 
yelling "You'll put your eye out with that thing!")  the detail is 
really nice. Masks and/or wigs are also available to go with each 
costume- even Hermione's bushy hair!  

I guess that's what impressed me about most of the merchandise- 
Detail!  everything had a lot more detail in it than you usually see 
in merchandise of this type.  Lots of attention to detail, even to 
getting the colors of things correct. Lots of little details and 
accessories with the toys- I wish I could say more!

I didn't see any pictures of Troll or goblin costumes- Can't help 
there!

Ellen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> At 05:45 PM 04/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >In the scene with Hermione floating the feather, Flitwick is 
standing
> >off to the left, on top of his desk, coaching the class.  Flitwick 
is
> >bald, with full muttonchop whiskers- very distictive looking.  He
> >reminds me of an illustration I once saw of an aged Bilbo Baggins.
> 
> Let me guess - this is what he looked like:
> http://www.hollywood-costumes.com/pics/flitwick.jpg
> 
> >I can also say that Wands, in the movie, have definate handles.
> >Hermiones handle is lighter colored than the shaft of the wand,
> >shaped slightly, and with a ridge where it joins onto the handle.
> 
> Again, like this?
> http://www.hollywood-costumes.com/pics/wands.jpg
> (left-to-right - Harry's, Ron's, and Hermione's)
> 
> For anyone who's wondering WHAT the above are, Rubies Costumes is 
doing the 
> entire Harry Potter line of costumes this season:
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_03_18_archive.html#2856793
> 
> According to various reports, there are more masks to come 
including the 
> troll, Snape, goblins etc. I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed 
with the 
> detail.
> 
> --
> B.K. DeLong
> bkdelong at p...
> 617.877.3271
> 
> http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
> http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
> http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.
> http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com     Herb.




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:21:06 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:21:06 -0000
Subject: Department of Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9ae7ri+avmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aelhi+t1jq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15919

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> I was listening to the audio version of GoF in my car today,
> and I picked up on the mention of a Department of Mysteries 
> at the MoM. Its employees are known as "Unspeakables."
> 
> Stacy 


In PoA Fudge talked about the Magical Law Enforcement Squad.
Employees were referred to as "Trained Hit Wizards." [pg 208] 
We may hear of even more groups in book5. 

Bugg 






From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 09:15:55 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:15:55 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGrownups to shut down
In-Reply-To: <B6EC203B.100%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9aeoob+isg5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15920

*delurks*

Ha. Ha. Ha.

By the time I realised this HAD to be fake (where were the e-mails to 
PoU and HP_Paradise? Why hadn't the groups been deleted from Yahoo! 
Groups?) I had already started having a heartattack (I'm only 13! YOU 
SHALL PAY *glares evilly*), planning a lawsuit (we were only 
discussing the books...), planning a "letter" to WB (in the loosest 
sense of the word) and was about to e-mail with lots of capital 
letters to anyone I could think of to get saving archives and such 
(even though it's now April 4 here... where was *I* when the brains 
were handed out?). I was in full battle mode, and now all I've got is 
a sense of emptiness and severe stomach pains...

And I thought I was safe this year, that no one would get ME with a 
practical joke, how wrong was I?

Though I have to applaud you for the excellent prank now that I'm 
*almost* over it!

*goes right back into lurk mode*

========
~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed With Harry Potter
(* ) Chaser ( *)
Proud Ravenclaw

GROW YOUR OWN DOPE --- PLANT A MAN

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Dear Listmembers,
> 
> I've got some unfortunate news to impart, but please bear with me. 
As Penny,
> the list Founder, is currently unable to get to her computer (pre-
natal
> breathing classes, I think), she has asked me to convey this 
information to
> the group.
> 
> Yahoo, host of the YahooGroups service, has been served with a
> cease-and-desist order from AOL-TimeWarner (parent company of 
Warner Bros.,
> who own the movie rights to SS/PS and CoS) for HPforGrownups and 
several
> other Harry Potter groups, including HP_Fanfiction, 
ParadigmOfUncertainty,
> HP_Paradise, SnapeFans and HPslash, on the basis that they infringe 
Warner's
> copyright for the HP mark. Yahoo have agreed to go along with this 
and have
> served the Moderators with a 24-hour closedown period. As of 12 
midnight
> Eastern Time tomorrow, the HPforGrownups community, as well as all 
its
> HPFGU-based lists, will cease functioning. I enclose an email from 
Yahoo
> services informing us of the action, with the sender obscured.
> 
> The Moderators deeply regret this, but we are left with few 
options. If you
> have any suggestions at all, we'd be very grateful if you'd send 
them to our
> address at HPforGrownups-Owner at y... (which will only be working
> for a day). After tomorrow, please use my email (john at w...) as a
> contact.
> 
> Please be patient during this very trying time for us all. Again,
> HPforGrownups will be discontinued as of midnight on April 1st, 
2001.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> --John, for the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
> 
> > From: Sheena G. ([deleted]@yahoo-inc.com)
> > To: HPforGrownups-owner at y...
> > Cc: [deleted]
> > Subject: Deletion of your group
> > 
> > Dear HPforGrownups Moderator,
> > 
> > we at Yahoo! have been notified by AOL-TimeWarner that your 
HPforGrownups
> > group contains several violations of their copyright on "Harry 
Potter", and
> > has been served a Cease-And-Desist letter by AOL-TimeWarner. 
Yahoo! is bound
> > by law in the State of California, which requires us to remove 
all such
> > content within 48 hours. we therefore inform you that your group 
will be
> > deleted at 9PM tomorrow.
> > 
> > thank you for using YahooGroups!
> > 
> > Sheena G.
> > Technical Executive
> > Yahoo!, Inc.




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 10:09:16 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 12:09:16 +0200
Subject: Department of Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <986360668.2243.58229.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010404112150.00a04e20@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15921

Stacy wrote:

>  So what is the Department of Mysteries? I'm
>guessing that at some point we'll find out, because there's this
>mention, and also a mention in FBWFT. Is it like the wizarding CIA?
>Is it a bit like the ID in Lori's PoU? And if it IS similar to the
>CIA, what will its role in the war against Voldemort be? What was it
>the first time around?

IIRC, Augustus Rookwood (sp?), one of the DE betrayed by Karkaroff (and the 
only one whose name had any value), worked for this Department.  Still, it 
seems to me that there is no particular stigma associated with 
them.  Arthur explains quite cheerfully (GoF) that nobody knows what they do.

>How much control does Fudge have over this
>particular division? Does it operate more independently than some of
>the other departments?


It would be fitting for a spy to be most successful in the organization 
that has some degree of independence within the Ministry. However, my 
impression (from the entire series) is that entire Ministry is poorly run 
and that neither Fudge nor his predecessors had much control over anything. 
It was probably transparent to Voldemort during VWI, and it was no big 
surprise (unfortunately) that Crouch's methods were welcomed by the wizard 
community. I wonder if any of Voldermort's followers had purely political 
motives (with no anti-Muggle slant), and were annoyed by the current state 
of affaires so much that they would be willing to trade it for a dictatorship.

Vlatka


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr  4 11:18:28 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:18:28 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
Message-ID: <9aevu4+pajr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15922

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it. I haven't seen it in the month 
and change I've been lurking and perusing; kindly forgive the last  
vestiges of lingering newbiecluelessness if this has been discussed 
already. 

There's a school of thought that Gilderoy *spit* Lockhart sent the 
singing Valentine to Harry.

There's a school of thought that Ginny did it. 

My thought, though is that Riddle did it during one of the periods 
while he was "driving" Ginny and she had no recollection of what she 
was doing.  After all, dear sweet Tom Riddle knew that Ginny was mad 
for Harry. And it's Voldemort's cruelty even at sixteen to mortify 
and humiliate the girl to amuse himself because he's had to endure 
her boring 11 year old girlprattle in order to further his own 
ambitions. 

That also explains why the dwarf was so insistent on Harry *getting* 
said Valentine.  Riddle might've threatened, persuaded, or bribed the 
dwarf in question to make sure Harry's Valentine was read to him, 
especially in front of Ginny and/or a crowd for maximum 
embarrassment.  To my recollection, though other Valentines 
circulated  Hogwarts, none were delivered by *quite* so persistent a 
dwarf as the one that told Harry his eyes are as green as a fresh-
pickled toad.


Indigo
[who finished CoS for the second time during a bout of insomnia last 
night] 








From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 11:53:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 11:53:03 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9aevu4+pajr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9af1uv+pccb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15923

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it. I haven't seen it in the month 
> and change I've been lurking and perusing; kindly forgive the last  
> vestiges of lingering newbiecluelessness if this has been discussed 
> already. 
> 
> There's a school of thought that Gilderoy *spit* Lockhart sent the 
> singing Valentine to Harry.
> 
> There's a school of thought that Ginny did it. 
> 
> My thought, though is that Riddle did it during one of the periods 
> while he was "driving" Ginny and she had no recollection of what 
she 
> was doing.  After all, dear sweet Tom Riddle knew that Ginny was 
mad 
> for Harry. And it's Voldemort's cruelty even at sixteen to mortify 
> and humiliate the girl to amuse himself because he's had to endure 
> her boring 11 year old girlprattle in order to further his own 
> ambitions. 
> 
> That also explains why the dwarf was so insistent on Harry 
*getting* 
> said Valentine.  Riddle might've threatened, persuaded, or bribed 
the 
> dwarf in question to make sure Harry's Valentine was read to him, 
> especially in front of Ginny and/or a crowd for maximum 
> embarrassment.  To my recollection, though other Valentines 
> circulated  Hogwarts, none were delivered by *quite* so persistent 
a 
> dwarf as the one that told Harry his eyes are as green as a fresh-
> pickled toad.
> 
> 
> Indigo
> [who finished CoS for the second time during a bout of insomnia 
last 
> night]

I think that what you are saying is possible - I just have a query 
over the persistent dwarf.
You say that Riddle may have threatened the dwarf - How?  Riddle is 
controlling Ginny's actions, and forcing her to kill cockerells, 
paint warnings on walls etc. but he doesn't actually take on solid 
form until the end of the book, when he is able to do so by sapping 
all of Ginny's energy, and in the process killing her.

If he was threatening him though Ginny, and miserable old dwarf is 
hardly going to take notice of a small girl (ferocious as she can be 
at times).
Secondly, (just a minor point) it's the dratted Harry POV again. We 
don't actually hear anything much specific about how the other 
valentines are delivered, but I seem to remember that the teachers 
were annoyed because the dwarfs were delivering in lessons.  I think 
this is probably just as embarrassing, as the dwarf would have the 
undivided attention of the whole class!

Catherine




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Apr  4 07:22:52 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:22:52 +1000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore  and Voldemort
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010404172252.007d79d0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15924

Barbara wrote in reply to my theor of a relationship between Dumbledore and
Voldemort.

>Well, it's a nice theory, but while they might be related in another
>way, he's definitely not V's father.  In GoF they have to use "bone of
>the father" for the flesh, blood, and bone spell and they definitely
>take it from Tom Riddle's grave, so he is V's father.

That's very true, I'd forgotten that. I still think there's something more
to their relationship. It's just a feeling I get. Maybe it's my habit of
looking for subtext *shrug*.

Joanne.



From joannec at lisp.com.au  Wed Apr  4 07:27:11 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:27:11 +1000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore and Voldemort
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010404172711.007d7100@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15925

>I don't think the father/son thing is possible.  Voldemort needed the 
>bones of a member of his family in the resurrection spell, and used 
>those of his father, Tom Riddle.   If he hadn't been his father, 
>wouldn't the spell have failed?

It's a pity...it's a fun theory. Oh, well *sigh*.

>The brother thing I think is also unlikely.  Dumbledore is 150, 
>acccording to JKR recently, 

Where was this?

>and if Voldemort was 15/16 50 years ago, 
>that would make him in his 60s.  As Voldemort's parents were 
>obviously quite young when they got together, (gleaned from 
>descriptions of the dead bodies etc, and that she was young enough to 
>have children) I don't think that this is physically possible.

Half brothers? Dumbledore's mother was a 'bit on the side'? Riddle and
Dumbledore's mother had one encounter and she didn't tell him? Dumbledore's
mother was Riddle's first?

Or there's the option of Dumbledore's parents being related to Voldemort's...

>(I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's 
>mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a 
>Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)

Not impossible, though...

Joanne.



From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Apr  4 14:19:14 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:19:14 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task
In-Reply-To: <2f.133af2f7.27fac2aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9afah2+sfjp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15926

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., LynnP333 at a... wrote:
> 
> Also, I always wondered what happened after Moody dragged Draco 
down to see 
> Snape after the bouncing ferret incident.  Did Snape actually 
bother with 
> giving Draco any detention?  If Moody was a friend of both Snape 
*and* Lucius 
> Malfoy, it must have put Snape in an awkward position.  Then 
again... I think 
> it's really just Draco's wishful thinking that his father would 
really care 
> if he was treated unfairly... kind of sad, actually.

For one take on what happened after, you can read my fanfic, A 
Surfeit of Curses, at http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?
action=story-read&storyid=96654&chapter=6 - you can read the begining 
of that chapter and it will make sense, but you'll miss some of the 
other interactions.

To tie this back to canon, even before I started writing fanfic, I 
believed that Moody had made Draco's year a living hell in DaDA 
class, in revenge against Lucius Malfoy, who he hates because not 
only is Lucius a death eater, walking free, but he's still in 
positions of power, whereas Crouch's father lost his power due to 
Barty's own association with the death eaters. I don't think Barty 
cared about this because he *cared* about his father as a person 
anymore - I think he was bitter because if Crouch, Senior had 
continued on his fast track to minister of magic, Barty would now be 
better able to manipulate the system for Voldemort's benefit, and his 
loss of power 13ish years before prevented that. 
I think Lucius would care if Draco was being treated unfairly, again 
not out of any consideration for his son as a person, but because 
such unfair treatment could be considered an embarrassment to the 
Malfoy family, a showing of weakness before an auror.
Of course, I also believe that when Draco learns that Moody wasn't 
Moody, during the summer before fifth year...he's going to have a few 
changes in his beliefs. 
And I do agree with the other people who posted - I think moody was 
being sarcastic when he said that Lucius and Severus were his *old 
friends*.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 14:43:28 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:43:28 -0000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010404172711.007d7100@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <9afbug+gg6v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15927

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:
> >I don't think the father/son thing is possible.  Voldemort needed 
the 
> >bones of a member of his family in the resurrection spell, and 
used 
> >those of his father, Tom Riddle.   If he hadn't been his father, 
> >wouldn't the spell have failed?
> 
> It's a pity...it's a fun theory. Oh, well *sigh*.
> 
> >The brother thing I think is also unlikely.  Dumbledore is 150, 
> >acccording to JKR recently, 
> 
> Where was this?

It was in the Comic Relief online chat which can be found at 
comicrelief.org.uk 

Catherine




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 15:08:54 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:08:54 -0000
Subject: Wizard Internet: A Nice Tidbit to Ponder
Message-ID: <9afde6+89e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15928

I found this in a JKR chat and it intrigued me:

Q: Has Harry ever used the Internet? 

A: No. He's not allowed near Dudley's computer and Dudley's the only 
one who's got a computer. He gets beaten up if he goes too near the 
keyboard. So no, he's never used the Internet. I use it a lot but not 
Harry. Wizards don't really need to use the Internet but that's 
something that you'll find out later on in the series. They have a 
means of finding out what goes on in the outside world that I think 
is more fun than the Internet. Could anything be more fun than the 
Internet? Yes! 

Oh Jo!! I love it when you toss these "You will find out why later in 
the series..." into the air! So what do people think? How do Wizards 
surf? Maybe since they get their mail by owl or Parrot or whatnot 
there is a little network of sparrows and doves flying and fetching 
other info??






From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Apr  4 10:05:59 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:05:59 EST5EDT
Subject: Snacks of Doom  (was: Spam)
Message-ID: <8F4C853D4A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15929

Denise!!!  I LOVE pickle and peanut butter sandwiches!!!!!!!!

Glad to see someone else does, too!



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr  4 15:13:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:13:38 -0000
Subject: McGonga (filk)
Message-ID: <9afdn2+97fq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15930

McGonga 

(To the tune of Conga, from Leonard Bernstein's Wonderful Town)

Dedicated to Cassandra

(The Scene: Common area of Gryffindor, late one weekend night.  
HERMIONE, having had a few butterbeers too many, leads the house in a 
raucous celebration of nothing in particular. NOTE: The name of 
McGonagall is used here for purely prosodic purposes) 

HERMIONE
What do you think about powdered floo?
Pettigrew?
Potion brew?
What's your opinion `bout You-Know-Who?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!

HERMIONE
What do you think about Zonko's japes?
Black's escape?
Boggart shapes?
Enjoying a class with Severus Snape?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!
La, la la la la la la la la la, etc

HERMIONE
Professor Professor Professor McGonagall
If she heard us singing she'd think it ironical

What do you think about Slytherin?
The Weasley twins?
Professor Binns?
Don't you just love Harry's next-of-kin?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!

HERMIONE
What do you think about Filch's prowls?
Lupin's howls?
Quidditch fouls?
How do you like getting letters from owls?
What do you think about


ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!
La, la la la la la la la la la, etc

HERMIONE
Professor Professor Professor McGonagall
Let's give her a headline in the Daily Chronicle

HERMIONE
What do you think about Crookshanks Cat?
The Sorting Hat?
The Lady Fat?
How about that Ron and his pet rat?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!

HERMIONE
What do you think about flying brooms?
Magic rooms?
Riddle's tomb?
What do you know about Phoenix plumes?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!
La, la la la la la la la la la, etc

HERMIONE
Professor Professor Professor McGonagall
It's so hard to picture her wearing a monocle

HERMIONE
What do you think about magic wands?
Diagon?
Beauxbatons?
Merpeople swimming deep in the pond?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!

HERMIONE
What do you think about portkey trips?
Malfoy's quips?
R/H ships?
The jaws of Fluffy that tear and rip?
What do you think about
 

ALL
                                         

McGonga!!!!
La, la la la la la la la la la, etc
Professor Professor Professor McGonagall
Our filk is now over, folks, and so you see that is all!


    - CMC






From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Apr  4 10:12:27 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:12:27 EST5EDT
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
Message-ID: <8F67F17DE0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15931

Didn't mean to send that pickle and peanut butter message to this 
list.  Sorry.....my bad.

I was wondering something, though.  If magic healings worked so 
well (broken bones healed instantly, etc.) why did everyone (well, 
everyone in Slytherin and those who read the paper) believe Draco 
going on and on about how his arm was hurt?  Why didn't everyone 
call his bluff?  I just thought that was odd.


Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Apr  4 15:34:25 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:34:25 -0000
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <8F67F17DE0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <9afeu1+c4vc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15932

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:

> I was wondering something, though.  If magic healings worked so 
> well (broken bones healed instantly, etc.) why did everyone (well, 
> everyone in Slytherin and those who read the paper) believe Draco 
> going on and on about how his arm was hurt?  Why didn't everyone 
> call his bluff?  I just thought that was odd.

We know that broken bones can be fixed easily, and it seems that cuts 
and bruises heal quickly as well. 
What we do not know from canon is whether an injury to muscles, 
ligaments & tendons, and possibly arteries or veins, can be healed as 
easily. 
It's very likely that the injury Draco suffered didn't damage bone at 
all, but ripped through the muscles and blood vessels - obviously the 
damage was contained - if it hadn't been, he could've bled to death - 
but there may not be a potion that causes muscles and blood vessels 
to regrow themselves the same way SkeleGrow does.
Or the same way that some Muggles can't use certain antibiotics 
because of penecillin allergies, Draco may be allergic to whatever 
should be/could be used to heal him quickly.  




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr  4 16:06:45 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:06:45 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9aevu4+pajr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afgql+cmbi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15933

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it. I haven't seen it in the month 
> and change I've been lurking and perusing; kindly forgive the last  
> vestiges of lingering newbiecluelessness if this has been discussed 
> already. 
> 
> There's a school of thought that Gilderoy *spit* Lockhart sent the 
> singing Valentine to Harry.
> 
> There's a school of thought that Ginny did it. 
> 
> My thought, though is that Riddle did it during one of the periods 
> while he was "driving" Ginny and she had no recollection of what she 
> was doing.  After all, dear sweet Tom Riddle knew that Ginny was mad 
> for Harry. And it's Voldemort's cruelty even at sixteen to mortify 
> and humiliate the girl to amuse himself because he's had to endure 
> her boring 11 year old girlprattle in order to further his own 
> ambitions. 
> 
> That also explains why the dwarf was so insistent on Harry *getting* 
> said Valentine.  Riddle might've threatened, persuaded, or bribed 
the 
> dwarf in question to make sure Harry's Valentine was read to him, 
> especially in front of Ginny and/or a crowd for maximum 
> embarrassment.  To my recollection, though other Valentines 
> circulated  Hogwarts, none were delivered by *quite* so persistent a 
> dwarf as the one that told Harry his eyes are as green as a fresh-
> pickled toad.
> 
> 
> Indigo
> [who finished CoS for the second time during a bout of insomnia last 
> night]

I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent the 
Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the book, 
Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, blah blah. And 
it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, during the Troll 
scene.

:-)Milz




From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com  Wed Apr  4 16:26:03 2001
From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:26:03 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] oops..and a wondering....
Message-ID: <ff.4459133.27fca51b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15934

In a message dated 4/4/01 11:16:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bray.262 at osu.edu 
writes:


> Didn't mean to send that pickle and peanut butter message to this 
> list.  Sorry.....my bad.
> 
> 

being really silly here today..... pickles (sweet)and peanut butter? haven't 
had one of those sanwiches in years. LOL don't knock then til ya try them. 
going back to lurk in my gutter with Draco. Reality is gone.... LOL
Tessie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 16:43:36 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:43:36 -0000
Subject: DEs DID Know Peter was the spy
Message-ID: <9afivo+aavk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15935

(If someone has already posted this, forgive me)

Lately, there has been some discusssion of the question of Death 
Eater's identity being a secret to each other.  I assumed it probably 
was (the point someone made about secret societies operating that way 
(e.g. the KKK in the US) is a strong and extremely valid arguement.)  
However, as I read PoA -- again -- I noticed this passage:

"What, scared to hear your old master's name," said Black.  "I don't 
blame you, Peter.  His lot aren't happy with you, are they?"
"Don't know what you mean Sirius --" muttered Pettigrew...
"You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said 
Black.  "You've been hiding from V.'s old suppoorters.  I heard 
things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead...or you'd 
have to answer to them.  I heard them screaming all kinds of things 
in their sleep. ..."

So, apparently at least a few of them knew Peter, and not Sirius, was 
a spy for them.  Maybe just the ones in Azkaban...  I hope that Snape 
was out of the loop by this time, because if HE knew that Sirius was 
innocent and never told Dumbledore, he's rotten.  I know Sirius 
played an extremely cruel and dangerous trick on him in school, but, 
whew, to let an innocent man rot in Azkaban over a grudge...

Stephanie




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr  4 16:50:40 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:50:40 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9af1uv+pccb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afjd0+bk5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15936

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I think that what you are saying is possible - I just have a query 
> over the persistent dwarf.

> You say that Riddle may have threatened the dwarf - How?  Riddle is 
> controlling Ginny's actions, and forcing her to kill cockerells, 
> paint warnings on walls etc. but he doesn't actually take on solid 
> form until the end of the book, when he is able to do so by sapping 
> all of Ginny's energy, and in the process killing her.

This is true. But Ginny also has four older brothers at Hogwarts, two 
of whom are notorious troublemakers, pranksters, and ne'er-do-wells.  
So even if all Riddle had were Ginny's resources, he still knew his 
own nasty tricks, and had the fallback, "I'll get my big brother on 
you!"  But he had her wand too, and could use it I daresay as well as 
he could've used Harry's --though we know using a wand that isn't  
yours has unpredictable results. 

> If he was threatening him though Ginny, and miserable old dwarf is 
> hardly going to take notice of a small girl (ferocious as she can 
> be  at times).

> Secondly, (just a minor point) it's the dratted Harry POV again. We 
> don't actually hear anything much specific about how the other 
> valentines are delivered, but I seem to remember that the teachers 
> were annoyed because the dwarfs were delivering in lessons.  I 
> think  this is probably just as embarrassing, as the dwarf would 
> have the  undivided attention of the whole class!
> 
> Catherine

This is true. But I imagine if Ron or Hermione or one of the Weasleys 
or any of Harry's contemporaries had been attacked by a persistent 
dwarf, it might've got a passing mention. 

i.e. 

"Harry winced sympathetically as a dwarf lunged for Lee Jordan's 
knees and tackled him to the ground, procuring a captive audience for 
the reading of the Valentine." 

True, Harry doesn't notice *everything* and couldn't, even. But the 
dwarves were being a big distraction and they were hard to miss 
dressed up like ugly little Cupids. 

=====================

And Milz said:

I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent the 
Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the book, 
Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, blah blah. And 
it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, during the 
Troll 
scene.

:-)Milz


That's possible too; I hadn't considered that.  Would Draco go to 
that much trouble to embarrass Harry, though? His MO usually consists 
of impersonations, cruel jibes and snide remarks about how poor the 
Weasleys are.  Besides which, Draco's known to belabor a point to the 
point where he's driven it into the ground, and he didn't do so here. 

Hmm. It still bears more thinking about, though. 

Indigo
[I LOVE this crowd!] 








From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 16:54:13 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:54:13 -0000
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <9afeu1+c4vc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afjjl+c7qs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15937

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering something, though.  If magic healings worked so 
> > well (broken bones healed instantly, etc.) why did everyone 
(well, 
> > everyone in Slytherin and those who read the paper) believe Draco 
> > going on and on about how his arm was hurt?  Why didn't everyone 
> > call his bluff?  I just thought that was odd.
> 
> We know that broken bones can be fixed easily, and it seems that 
cuts 
> and bruises heal quickly as well. 
> What we do not know from canon is whether an injury to muscles, 
> ligaments & tendons, and possibly arteries or veins, can be healed 
as 
> easily. 
> It's very likely that the injury Draco suffered didn't damage bone 
at 
> all, but ripped through the muscles and blood vessels - obviously 
the 
> damage was contained - if it hadn't been, he could've bled to 
death - 
> but there may not be a potion that causes muscles and blood vessels 
> to regrow themselves the same way SkeleGrow does.
> Or the same way that some Muggles can't use certain antibiotics 
> because of penecillin allergies, Draco may be allergic to whatever 
> should be/could be used to heal him quickly.


Whoa there! Draco DID heal quickly - he just PRETENDED that he was 
still hurt. And it's not just Harry's opinion, there's the wink at 
Crabbe and Goyle, remember? (When Pansy I think asks him (Draco) how 
he's feeling). 

Naama




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Apr  4 17:02:43 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:02:43 -0000
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <9afjjl+c7qs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afk3j+7lh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15938

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
 
> Whoa there! Draco DID heal quickly - he just PRETENDED that he was 
> still hurt. And it's not just Harry's opinion, there's the wink at 
> Crabbe and Goyle, remember? (When Pansy I think asks him (Draco) 
how 
> he's feeling). 


Nay! (ok, enough with the horse puns)
We do, as usual, have only harry's perspective on this. The wink at 
Crabbe & Goyle could just as easily mean, "See how many benefits and 
how much sympathy I get from this injury!" or even "I am, of course, 
lying about whether I am still feeling pain from it". The former 
would be a viable subtext even if he's still in pain, although I 
don't think he is in much pain from it. The latter, of course, would 
be viable if he's feeling absolutely no pain from it, the way I felt 
from about 4 days after my broken leg got casted, although he still 
can't use it because of the sling, the same way I couldn't really use 
my leg because of the cast.
Obviously, if Pansy is asking him about it, then he's not hanging 
around the Slytherin common room slingless, tossing darts in the 
evenings. If he was faking it, then why wouldn't the other slytherins 
band behind him and be happy about getting one over on the other 
houses, and not report him for only wearing his bandages in public?




From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu  Wed Apr  4 17:11:50 2001
From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (Paul W. Hanbury, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:11:50 -0000
Subject: DEs DID Know Peter was the spy
In-Reply-To: <9afivo+aavk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afkkm+or2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15939

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> "What, scared to hear your old master's name," said Black.  "I 
don't 
> blame you, Peter.  His lot aren't happy with you, are they?"
> "Don't know what you mean Sirius --" muttered Pettigrew...
> "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said 
> Black.  "You've been hiding from V.'s old suppoorters.  I heard 
> things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead...or you'd 
> have to answer to them.  I heard them screaming all kinds of things 
> in their sleep. ..."
> 
> So, apparently at least a few of them knew Peter, and not Sirius, 
was 
> a spy for them.  Maybe just the ones in Azkaban...  I hope that 
Snape 
> was out of the loop by this time, because if HE knew that Sirius 
was 
> innocent and never told Dumbledore, he's rotten.  I know Sirius 
> played an extremely cruel and dangerous trick on him in school, 
but, 
> whew, to let an innocent man rot in Azkaban over a grudge...

If they believe that Peter is dead, they probably 
think that Serius killed him.  They may be looking
for Peter for a different rotten thing that he did.
Peter may have staged his death in order to hide 
from the Death Eaters, with the lucky side effect of 
getting Serius locked away.

What that "different rotten thing" might be I can't
even imagine.  If it was turning against Voldemorte,
Snape would be in big trouble, too, unless Dumbledore
is really powerfuly enough to protect him from all of
the Death Eaters and Voldemorte himself.  

I would rather believe that Peter was just a really evil
individual who wronged many of his fellow Death Eaters and
now they're all holding thier own individual grudges 
against him.





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr  4 17:14:26 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:14:26 -0000
Subject: Wizard Internet: A Nice Tidbit to Ponder
In-Reply-To: <9afde6+89e6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afkpi+m804@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15940

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> I found this in a JKR chat and it intrigued me:
> 
How do Wizards 
> surf? Maybe since they get their mail by owl or Parrot or whatnot 
> there is a little network of sparrows and doves flying and fetching 
> other info??

My guess is that the magic involved would be similar (if not 
identical) to what we've seen already with Tom Riddle's diary and the 
Pensieve: some kind of spell or implement that allows the "user" to 
enter into another time and space as an unseen observer.

    - CMC




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Apr  4 17:21:46 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:21:46 -0000
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <9afk3j+7lh0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afl7a+cqcs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15941


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
>  
> > Whoa there! Draco DID heal quickly - he just PRETENDED that he was 
> > still hurt. And it's not just Harry's opinion, there's the wink at 
> > Crabbe and Goyle, remember? (When Pansy I think asks him (Draco) 
> how 
> > he's feeling). 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:
>
> Obviously, if Pansy is asking him about it, then he's not hanging 
> around the Slytherin common room slingless, tossing darts in the 
> evenings. If he was faking it, then why wouldn't the other slytherins 
> band behind him and be happy about getting one over on the other 
> houses, and not report him for only wearing his bandages in public?

I don't think he's really hurt.  I think he's faking, and he's told his 
minions (C & G).  He doesn't go around the common room without his 
sling (and hasn't told anyone who isn't absolutely and unequivocally 
faithful to him) because Snape would not be amused.  Malfoy's been 
using this "injury" to throw a bad light on Dumbledore (choosing a bad 
teacher - might hit a little close to home) AND (maybe most important 
to Snape) get out of doing some of his classwork. 
 
I think the Slytherins know how Snape feels about rules, which is why 
Malfoy tries to do "evil" only when no teachers are around.  If Snape 
wasn't one to exact punishment, why not be mean to the Trio (or anyone 
else) any time.  If a teacher's just going to take you to your house 
master, and he were just to wait till they leave and give you a light 
slap on the wrist (with a wink and a grin) - there wouldn't be much 
motivation for staying out of trouble.  I think as far as rules go, 
Snape's just as hard on Slytherins as anybody else (maybe harder 
because he has to show the other houses how students are "supposed" to 
behave).

a.





From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Apr  4 17:30:58 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:30:58 -0000
Subject: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <9afeu1+c4vc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afloi+f8eh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15942


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering something, though.  If magic healings worked so 
> > well (broken bones healed instantly, etc.) why did everyone (well, 
> > everyone in Slytherin and those who read the paper) believe Draco 
> > going on and on about how his arm was hurt?  Why didn't everyone 
> > call his bluff?  I just thought that was odd.

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:
> We know that broken bones can be fixed easily, and it seems that cuts 
> and bruises heal quickly as well. 
> What we do not know from canon is whether an injury to muscles, 
> ligaments & tendons, and possibly arteries or veins, can be healed as 
> easily. 
<snip>

I think you're right on this.  It seems like deep injuries to skin 
(like Cedric's burns and Hermione's hands in GoF) require more than 
just insta-healing.  That may be true of muscles and ligaments as well 
(otherwise the wizard Arthur W. borrowed the tent from would not suffer 
from lumbago).  Hmmm...that may also explain why Moody still has a 
chunk missing out of his nose and didn't just get his leg regrown.  
Maybe if there's too much damage to skin and muscle the folks are just 
out of luck.
Of course, there may not have been a healer around that he trusted 
enough to give him a potion, so maybe his injuries don't count as 
evidence. <g>
a.





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 17:45:53 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9afgql+cmbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010404174553.45158.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15943

> I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent the 
> Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the
> book, Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, blah 
> blah. And it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, 
> during the Troll scene.

All Ginny had to do was deny it; there's nothing in the book to
support anyone else's sending it.  Malfoy just got in a lucky guess
with the unerring instinct for trouble he has.

Why would JKR leave this loose end dangling if someone else had sent it?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 17:52:20 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:52:20 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ....wizard medicine (was oops...) and funniest scene
Message-ID: <LAW2-F109pPFR6sKBEr00001884@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15944




>
> > Whoa there! Draco DID heal quickly - he just PRETENDED that he was
> > still hurt. And it's not just Harry's opinion, there's the wink at
> > Crabbe and Goyle, remember? (When Pansy I think asks him (Draco)
>how
> > he's feeling).
>
Agree Draco is faking it.  The reason he keeps up the pretence at all times 
is he gets the side benefits of attention and sympathy from his fellow 
Slytherins, and others, especially the girls.

Besides, he's going for broke - he wants the Hippogriff killed and Hagrid 
dismissed.  He can't afford not to do the job thoroughly.  (The wink is just 
to let the side-kicks know he is making the most of it.)

The reason adult wizards take him seriously could be that an injury dealt by 
a magical creature may have unpredictable magical complications.

Plus, why should magical remedies work the same on each patient any more 
than muggle remedies do on muggle patients?  There is also the skill of the 
magical healer to take into account - otherwise Madam Pomfrey and the 
hospital wing would not be needed.

All this is to show that he is putting on a plausible show.  We see, in GoF, 
that Draco still feels he has enough credit, or benefit of the doubt, to 
mention the Hippogriff attack to Rita Skeeter, which he would hardly do if 
he had been exposed as faking the severity of his injuries (even though the 
attack actually happened).

One of my favourite bits:

"Who're you going with, then?" said Ron.
"Angelina"...
"What?...You've already asked her?"...
"Good point," said Fred. He turned his head and called out across the common 
room, "Oi Angelina!"...
"What?"...
"Want to come to the ball with me?"
Angelina gave Fred an appraising sort of look.
"All right, then,"...
"There you go," said Fred to Harry and Ron, "piece of cake."

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From margdean at erols.com  Wed Apr  4 17:25:15 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 13:25:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: oops..and a wondering....
References: <9afjjl+c7qs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACB58FB.54A0D179@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15945

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:

> > We know that broken bones can be fixed easily, and it seems that
> > cuts and bruises heal quickly as well.  What we do not know from
> > canon is whether an injury to muscles, ligaments & tendons, and
> > possibly arteries or veins, can be healed as easily.
> > It's very likely that the injury Draco suffered didn't damage bone
> > at all, but ripped through the muscles and blood vessels - obviously
> > the damage was contained - if it hadn't been, he could've bled to
> > death - but there may not be a potion that causes muscles and blood
> > vessels to regrow themselves the same way SkeleGrow does.
> > Or the same way that some Muggles can't use certain antibiotics
> > because of penecillin allergies, Draco may be allergic to whatever
> > should be/could be used to heal him quickly.
> 
> Whoa there! Draco DID heal quickly - he just PRETENDED that he was
> still hurt. And it's not just Harry's opinion, there's the wink at
> Crabbe and Goyle, remember? (When Pansy I think asks him (Draco) how
> he's feeling).

Sure, but Draco couldn't have faked it plausibly if it weren't
=possible= for such injuries to linger (or have complications). 
Remember that he wasn't only snowing his classmates, but the
Ministry board reviewing Buckbeak's case.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 18:16:30 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 18:16:30 -0000
Subject: DEs DID Know Peter was the spy
In-Reply-To: <9afivo+aavk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afodu+beh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15946

I forgot to say that this is on page 370 (American) of PoA.
S



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> (If someone has already posted this, forgive me)
> 
> Lately, there has been some discusssion of the question of Death 
> Eater's identity being a secret to each other.  I assumed it 
probably 
> was (the point someone made about secret societies operating that 
way 
> (e.g. the KKK in the US) is a strong and extremely valid 
arguement.)  
> However, as I read PoA -- again -- I noticed this passage:
> 
> "What, scared to hear your old master's name," said Black.  "I 
don't 
> blame you, Peter.  His lot aren't happy with you, are they?"
> "Don't know what you mean Sirius --" muttered Pettigrew...
> "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said 
> Black.  "You've been hiding from V.'s old suppoorters.  I heard 
> things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead...or you'd 
> have to answer to them.  I heard them screaming all kinds of things 
> in their sleep. ..."
> 
> So, apparently at least a few of them knew Peter, and not Sirius, 
was 
> a spy for them.  Maybe just the ones in Azkaban...  I hope that 
Snape 
> was out of the loop by this time, because if HE knew that Sirius 
was 
> innocent and never told Dumbledore, he's rotten.  I know Sirius 
> played an extremely cruel and dangerous trick on him in school, 
but, 
> whew, to let an innocent man rot in Azkaban over a grudge...
> 
> Stephanie




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr  4 18:25:51 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 18:25:51 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <20010404174553.45158.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9afovf+d7bd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15947

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent the 
> > Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the
> > book, Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, blah 
> > blah. And it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, 
> > during the Troll scene.
> 
> All Ginny had to do was deny it; there's nothing in the book to
> support anyone else's sending it.  Malfoy just got in a lucky guess
> with the unerring instinct for trouble he has.
> 

I don't have my copy with me, but I think it says that Ginny turned 
red and ran into her classroom. Ginny was truly embarrassed. I don't 
think she would have sent Harry a singing Valentine, maybe a private, 
non-singing type, but one delivered by a troll in the middle of a 
hallway? 

> Why would JKR leave this loose end dangling if someone else had sent 
it?

She never explains why Sirius attacked the Fat Lady either. Dumbledore 
says that Sirius didn't behave in like an innocent man and Rowling has 
left that up in the air too.

I guess she'll do a lot of explaining in the future books. Anyhow, my 
thoughts about Malfoy sending the Valentine is from my gut feeling 
after re-reading that part several times. lol I guess that's the 
result of over-scrutinizing the books.

:-)Milz  




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 18:33:15 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 18:33:15 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9afovf+d7bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afpdb+7rmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15948

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent 
the 
> > > Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the
> > > book, Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, 
blah 
> > > blah. And it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, 
> > > during the Troll scene.
> > 
> > All Ginny had to do was deny it; there's nothing in the book to
> > support anyone else's sending it.  Malfoy just got in a lucky 
guess
> > with the unerring instinct for trouble he has.
> > 
> 
> I don't have my copy with me, but I think it says that Ginny turned 
> red and ran into her classroom. Ginny was truly embarrassed. I 
don't 
> think she would have sent Harry a singing Valentine, maybe a 
private, 
> non-singing type, but one delivered by a troll in the middle of a 
> hallway? 
> 
> > Why would JKR leave this loose end dangling if someone else had 
sent 
> it?
> 
> She never explains why Sirius attacked the Fat Lady either. 
Dumbledore 
> says that Sirius didn't behave in like an innocent man and Rowling 
has 
> left that up in the air too.
> 
> I guess she'll do a lot of explaining in the future books. Anyhow, 
my 
> thoughts about Malfoy sending the Valentine is from my gut feeling 
> after re-reading that part several times. lol I guess that's the 
> result of over-scrutinizing the books.
> 
> :-)Milz

Maybe she thought that it was pretty obvious why Sirius attacked the 
Fat Lady - sheer rage and frustration at not being able to get at 
Peter Petigrew.  It was just assumed that he was after Harry.  Doing 
this and attacking Ron's bed curtains (even here JKR is dropping 
clues: why Ron's and not Harry's) is not the act of an innocent man, 
but it is also not the act of someone who is currently thinking 
clearly, and Sirius was eaten up with anger and veangance.

Catherine




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  4 18:33:44 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 11:33:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Attacking the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <9afovf+d7bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010404183344.64878.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15949

> She never explains why Sirius attacked the Fat Lady
> either. Dumbledore 
> says that Sirius didn't behave in like an innocent
> man and Rowling has 
> left that up in the air too.

My thought was that Sirius attacked the Fat Lady out
of sheer frustration.  He's been locked up in Azkaban
for twelve years, which is far from a happy place, and
was basically hanging onto his sanity by the skin of
his teeth.  His *one* thought is to GET PETER - out of
revenge and out of concern for his godson.  He knows
if he can just get into the common room he can take
care of Peter once and for all, without any real
problem (everyone would just assume the cat ate
Scabbers).  The only thing standing in his way is the
Fat Lady, who won't let him in.  I'd slash her too!


Andrea
(Sticking my head out for a first posting - be nice!)

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr  4 19:06:17 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 19:06:17 -0000
Subject: CoS: Another thought about the Singing Valentine
In-Reply-To: <9afovf+d7bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9afrb9+g727@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15950

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > I've read it over too, and I get the feeling that Malfoy sent 
the 
> > > Valentine as a way to embarrass Harry AND Ginny. Earlier in the
> > > book, Malfoy makes some comment that Harry has a girlfriend, 
blah 
> > > blah. And it's Malfoy again, who goes on about Harry and Ginny, 
> > > during the Troll scene.
> > 
> > All Ginny had to do was deny it; there's nothing in the book to
> > support anyone else's sending it.  Malfoy just got in a lucky 
guess
> > with the unerring instinct for trouble he has.
> > 
> 
> I don't have my copy with me, but I think it says that Ginny turned 
> red and ran into her classroom

Actually,  Ginny covered her face with her hands and ran into her 
classroom.

I don't have the book with me (I'm at work in the Muggle Mines).

But the diary was also in that scene, and so it could've either been 
embarrassment, or horror that the diary had fallen into the hands of 
the person whose respect and admiration she wants most.






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 20:05:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 20:05:39 -0000
Subject: Attacking the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <20010404183344.64878.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9afuqj+h89i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15951

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > She never explains why Sirius attacked the Fat Lady
> > either. Dumbledore 
> > says that Sirius didn't behave in like an innocent
> > man and Rowling has 
> > left that up in the air too.
> 
> My thought was that Sirius attacked the Fat Lady out
> of sheer frustration.  He's been locked up in Azkaban
> for twelve years, which is far from a happy place, and
> was basically hanging onto his sanity by the skin of
> his teeth.  His *one* thought is to GET PETER - out of
> revenge and out of concern for his godson.  He knows
> if he can just get into the common room he can take
> care of Peter once and for all, without any real
> problem (everyone would just assume the cat ate
> Scabbers).  The only thing standing in his way is the
> Fat Lady, who won't let him in.  I'd slash her too!
> 
> 
> Andrea
> (Sticking my head out for a first posting - be nice!)
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."

Andrea, I've just said exactly the same thing.  We aren't supposed to 
do "me too's", but seeing as it's your first posting, and I agreed, 
and my point was that it was pretty obvious why Sirius slashed the 
painting, I thought why not (please don't beat me up, Mod Squad!)
Catherine
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 20:09:26 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 20:09:26 -0000
Subject: Attacking the Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <20010404183344.64878.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9afv1m+io55@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15952

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > She never explains why Sirius attacked the Fat Lady
> > either. Dumbledore 
> > says that Sirius didn't behave in like an innocent
> > man and Rowling has 
> > left that up in the air too.
> 
> My thought was that Sirius attacked the Fat Lady out
> of sheer frustration.  He's been locked up in Azkaban
> for twelve years, which is far from a happy place, and
> was basically hanging onto his sanity by the skin of
> his teeth.  His *one* thought is to GET PETER - out of
> revenge and out of concern for his godson.  He knows
> if he can just get into the common room he can take
> care of Peter once and for all, without any real
> problem (everyone would just assume the cat ate
> Scabbers).  The only thing standing in his way is the
> Fat Lady, who won't let him in.  I'd slash her too!
> 
> 
> Andrea
> (Sticking my head out for a first posting - be nice!)

Andrea, I agree with you.  I've just posted a mail saying something 
similar, and I know we shouldn't really do "me too" mails, but seeing 
as it's your first mail, why not (and welcome).  I think it was 
obvious, which is why JKR didn't spell it out.  (Please don't beat me 
up for being repetitive, Mod Squad!)
Catherine
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 21:08:04 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 21:08:04 -0000
Subject: DEs DID Know - Fat Lady
Message-ID: <9ag2fk+5tjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15953

Paul wrote:

>If they believe that Peter is dead, they probably 
>think that Serius killed him.  They may be looking
>for Peter for a different rotten thing that he did.
>Peter may have staged his death in order to hide 
>from the Death Eaters, with the lucky side effect of 
>getting Serius locked away.
>
>What that "different rotten thing" might be I can't
>even imagine. 

Sirius says that they think Peter double-crossed Voldemort, since V 
never came back from that little errand.  I think I said recently (or 
maybe I just thought it) that that seems like jumping to conclusions 
on the DEs' part--how was Peter to know that Voldemort would be unable 
to kill a baby, of all things?  But I can see that the DEs would at 
least be suspicious and want to grill him.  And of course, he's a 
suspicious character to them from the start, having been friends with 
James for years; spies are hard to trust.

To return to the how many DEs know how many other DEs question:  
rumors travel around prison, wouldn't you think?  So even if only a 
couple of other DEs knew or suspected Peter's identity back when they 
were in power, they've had 12 years to pass around information about 
who was in and who was out and who was doing what for V.

Catherine wrote:

>Doing 
>this and attacking Ron's bed curtains (even here JKR is dropping 
>clues: why Ron's and not Harry's)

Harry wonders about this at the time:  if he got the wrong bed, why 
didn't he just kill Ron and move on to each bed in turn?  I just 
figured at that point in the story that he'd panicked because Ron woke 
up and screamed.  But you're right, JKR drops a hint for those less 
clueless than me.
 
> is not the act of an innocent man, 
>but it is also not the act of someone who is currently thinking 
>clearly, and Sirius was eaten up with anger and veangance.

I agree, and I think it's the explanation for his slashing the Fat 
Lady, which he couldn't have imagined was going to help him get 
in--i.e., we don't have to find a rational explanation; there isn't 
one.

Now, given his state of mind, he probably stormed up to her, demanded 
that she let him in, and when she (unsurprisingly) refused, he lost 
it.  However, I do like to imagine a slightly different scene, in 
which an initially calm Sirius tries to sweet-talk the Fat Lady--if 
teenage Sirius was at all the way 90% of fanfic imagines him, he 
probably used to flirt with her*--and gets increasingly angry as she 
won't give in to cajoling or threats, and as his precious window of 
the feast shrinks.  THEN he loses it. 

I have a lot of sympathy for Sirius in this incident, either way (hi, 
Andrea--welcome to "Bad Tempers Anonymous"!).  And I don't take 
Dumbledore's "Sirius has not acted like an innocent man" as in any way 
meaning that D himself doubts his innocence, but simply as a "this 
really wouldn't look good to a jury."

Amy Z

*this assumes he was in Gryffindor, an unsettled question I am not 
intending to re-open!

-----------------------------------------------------
 Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer 
 giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of 
 young Australian witches and wizards have attempted 
 to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging 
 in order to enjoy these side effects . . . 
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr  4 21:43:05 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:43:05 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Internet: A Nice Tidbit to Ponder
In-Reply-To: <9afde6+89e6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010404141820.00c68460@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15954

At 03:08 PM 4/4/01 +0000, rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
>Oh Jo!! I love it when you toss these "You will find out why later in
>the series..." into the air! So what do people think? How do Wizards
>surf? Maybe since they get their mail by owl or Parrot or whatnot
>there is a little network of sparrows and doves flying and fetching
>other info??

Since Wizards travel by floo, communicate in a "Web-Cam"-like
manner with floos, and evem refer to the "Floo *Network*", I think
it was to do with floos.  Maybe the fireplace is Wizard "hardware"
and the fire and floo powder is Wizard "software"...

Harry: (Presents a tin canister to Ron)  Merry Christmas, Ron!

Ron: What is it?

Harry: It's "Virtual Veela 2.0" -- Toss the powder into the
             fire, and you can have your own virtual reality bevy
             of dancing Veela!

Ron: All right!  Here's one for you Harry!  (Hands him another canister)

Harry: (Reads the title) "Judith the Jaunty Teaches the Secrets of the
              Hungarian Seekers"...  Wow!  Thanks, Ron!  I was getting so
              bored steamrollering through your Chudley Cannons emulation
              program.

Ron: Shall we try these out?  Hermione, can we use the fireplace now?

Hermione: Not now -- I'm in the middle of "Tutorials on Second-Order
                  Differential Arithmancy, Level III"...

Ron: Come on, Hermione!   You know my fireplace is an old clunker
           from the strone age whereas yours has a Pentium 4 hearth,
           128 megabytes of EDO mantlepiece, and high-speed
           support for Apertus-Gamma-Lamda 3D Runes!

Hermione: (Disgustedly)  Men...



                                                 -- Dave




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 22:09:38 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 18:09:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Feeling his pain
Message-ID: <F431LEdyt3cew8k69RK0000175c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15955




>From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk

>Does that answer your question?
>BTW: Does anyone find it strange that Dumbledore calls Voldemort:
>Lord Voldemort, instead of just Voldemort - It is a honourary term in
>his case, after all, and I would have thought that Dumbledore would
>have been one of the last people to use it.  Any thoughts?
>
>Catherine


Apologies if someone has said this before....I'm desperately trying to keep 
up with the posts, but want to reply before I lose my idea.

Dumbledore has told Harry to not be afraid to use people's names before.  
There was (I believe) something right after that about avoiding Voldemorts 
true name only instills more fear.   (I don't have the books right here to 
quote from.)  The reason people flinch so much when they hear "Voldemort" is 
because that makes him more real, somehow.  I think that Dumbledore sees and 
respects the magical abilities that Voldemort has, but doesn't respect the 
way in which he uses those powers.  Calling him "Lord Voldemort" does two 
things.  Respects him for the talent, but also drives away some of the power 
and fear that surrounds him.

-Crystal :@)
who really must try to write more about her class subjects than she does 
about HP :P
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Apr  4 22:30:04 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 22:30:04 -0000
Subject: Wizard Internet: A Nice Tidbit to Ponder
In-Reply-To: <9afde6+89e6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ag79c+pt6q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15956

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> I found this in a JKR chat and it intrigued me:
> 
 Wizards don't really need to use the Internet but that's 
> something that you'll find out later on in the series. They have a 
> means of finding out what goes on in the outside world that I think 
> is more fun than the Internet. Could anything be more fun than the 
> Internet? Yes! 
> 
So what do people think? How do Wizards 
> surf? Maybe since they get their mail by owl or Parrot or whatnot 
> there is a little network of sparrows and doves flying and fetching 
> other info??

I think an additional bird network would be too slow.  There is 
probably some sort of magical object that can be combined with a 
thought process to gather information about the non-wizard world.  I 
wonder, though, if everyone (or at least every adult witch and 
wizard) has access to this, or if it is restricted in some way.  
You'd think that someone like Arthur Weasley would have a way to 
investigate things like electric plugs if there was an easily 
accessible Wiz-Internet.  Maybe only people in positions of power and 
responsibility have official access (Fudge, Dumbledore).

Marianne, who wantsBook V NOW!!!




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Apr  4 22:53:41 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 22:53:41 -0000
Subject: Riddle vs Voldemort (Was: Feeling his pain)
In-Reply-To: <F431LEdyt3cew8k69RK0000175c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ag8ll+ssij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15957

Crystal wrote:
> 
> Dumbledore has told Harry to not be afraid to use people's names 
before.  There was (I believe) something right after that about 
avoiding Voldemorts true name only instills more fear. The reason 
people flinch so much when they hear "Voldemort" is because that 
makes him more real, somehow.  


But Lord Voldemort is *not* his "true name."  His true name would be 
Tom Marvolo Riddle, something that only Harry and Dumbledore know.  
When he sank into the dark arts so heavily, I think he changed his 
name for two reasons. 1) He wanted no part of the Muggle father who 
abandoned him and 2) He knew that Tom Riddle was not a name with 
which to inspire fear.  He tells Harry in CoS that he had started 
calling himself LV while in school, but only his most intimate 
friends knew it.  (Query:  Where are those friends now and who 
were/are they?) 

Okay, I am rambling, but here's my point.  What would happen if 
Voldy's true identity were known by the rest of the wizarding world?  
How would that influence the upcoming fight?  ("That's who You-know-
who is?  Why, I went to school with that dispicable little prat!  I 
always knew he'd turn out to be no good. He convinced Binns I cheated 
on the Goblin Rebellion exam! Let me at him!") Would it make any 
difference?  How about if it were common knowledge he was a half-
Muggle himself?  How would his minions react to that?

Trina, using GoF as a booster seat on top of a stepstool while her 
computer desk chair is being fixed.  




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Apr  4 22:53:12 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 23:53:12 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Useful links for new members (reminder for the old hands)
Message-ID: <004f01c0bd5a$1bf018c0$b43570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15958

A very warm welcome to any new members!  Here Be Magic.

Also, here be another run through some useful links for the lost, confused
or curious among us. Why not save this file and enjoy it over and over
again?  <g>

****

Very Frequently Asked Questions (plus some non frequent things).  Every new
member should read this before posting a thing and everyone else should find
the info useful:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm


Netiquette tips.  It's important that everyone reads this from time to time.
Many of the points we make are designed to make messages easier to read or
to help guide members through the vast ocean of messages posted every day.
We are also evil and power crazy and you WILL do our bidding:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt


The Portkey - a quick way to be in the right place at the right time. Links
to our various sister groups and club areas and other, recommended HP clubs
for adults:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm


Guide to shorthand and slang terms.  Don't know your LOL from your IIRC?
Never heard of FITD or OBHWF?  Then look here:

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_____________________________________

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was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  4 23:40:12 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 23:40:12 -0000
Subject: Wizard Internet: A Nice Tidbit to Ponder (FF)
In-Reply-To: <9ag79c+pt6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9agbcs+hf0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15959

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> I think an additional bird network would be too slow.  There is 
> probably some sort of magical object that can be combined with a 
> thought process to gather information about the non-wizard world.  
I 
> wonder, though, if everyone (or at least every adult witch and 
> wizard) has access to this, or if it is restricted in some way.  
> You'd think that someone like Arthur Weasley would have a way to 
> investigate things like electric plugs if there was an easily 
> accessible Wiz-Internet.  Maybe only people in positions of power 
and responsibility have official access (Fudge, Dumbledore).

This is something I've been pondering ever since I began reading the 
books.  I mean, if these books are magical realism, then how come the 
Muggle-born witches and wizards aren't more comfortable with 
technology?

When gathering materials for my current ff.net science experiment, I 
began to wonder if there was a way to combine magic and technology. 
After all, sci-fi and fantasy are related genres--couldn't the two 
intersect? 

Now, the fanfic solution I came up with is REALLY implausible canon-
wise.  In the backstory, postwar Draco Malfoy was exiled amongst 
Muggles in Washington State, ended up working at Microsoft (hatred of 
Muggles aside, he *had* to eat), and befriending Bill Gates... then 
came up with the concept of magitech.  When Malfoy's name was finally 
cleared and he re-enters the wizarding world, his Malfosoft 
Corporation actually ended up revamping their economy much as the 
NASDAQ tech sector did ours.  Worked for *Trouble in Paradise*--will 
not suit canon IMO.

I like Dave's Floo powder spoof, though.  ;-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who wants Book 5 as well)




From dasienko at email.com  Thu Apr  5 02:16:16 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 02:16:16 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <01d801c0bba5$1aeb4c80$1e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9agkhg+bh3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15960

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Severus Snape, Potions Master and ex-Death Eater, which gives him 
much
> knowledge of Voldemort and his strengths, as well as his 
weaknesses. And,
> Albus Dumbeldore, "widely considered to be the greatest wizard of 
the
> current age, famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 
1945, for
> discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, (and btw ... what 
*are* the
> twelve uses of dragon's blood? Is this something that we will find 
out in
> 5,6, &7?) and for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas 
Flamel."
> 
> >>>>IMO Between the alchemy and the potions knowledge, could it be 
possible
> that the two of them come up with a potion that is not temporary, 
like the
> polyjuice potion is? 

*********************************************************************

I'm sort of a newbie here, and I'd like to add mt two knuts to this 
discussion about Snape coming up with a potion. 

Voldemort already has a very potent "potion" coursing through his 
veins-- Harry Potter's blood. This could lead to ( excuse the  
magical anatomy lesson) the White (Harry/good/Ethical) corpusules 
attacking the black(Voldemort/evil) corpusules. This would lead to a 
battle on the celluar level in Voldemort's body. If this is too 
clinical Muggle. Snape could use the fact that Harry's blood is in 
Voldemort to devise a potion that would some how destroy Voldemort by 
replacing the dark magic with the good stuff. 






From tmayor at mediaone.net  Thu Apr  5 02:21:22 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 02:21:22 -0000
Subject: Riddle vs Voldemort (Was: Feeling his pain)
In-Reply-To: <9ag8ll+ssij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9agkr2+frmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15961

Trina wrote:
> What would happen if 
> Voldy's true identity were known by the rest of the wizarding 
world?  
> How would that influence the upcoming fight?  ("That's who You-know-
> who is?  Why, I went to school with that dispicable little prat!  I 
> always knew he'd turn out to be no good. He convinced Binns I 
cheated 
> on the Goblin Rebellion exam! Let me at him!") Would it make any 
> difference?  How about if it were common knowledge he was a half-
> Muggle himself?  How would his minions react to that?
> 
An even better question: how would the rest of the wizarding world 
react? At the end of GoF we see Dumbledore & Co. preparing for battle 
(reaching out to the giants etc.) but maybe the war at this point 
should be mostly PR. The worst thing that could happen is for the 
majority of wizards to react the way Fudge did--incredulously blaming 
the bad-news bearers. 

Dumbledore could shake a lot of people out of that paranoid paralysis 
by saying Voldemort's name as freqently and as loudly as possible, 
and by painting him as the has-been loser that he is (the guy was 
crawling in the dirt as an undead being for 13 years; for his big 
comeback number, he attacks a wounded 14-year-old boy who still 
manages to defeat him; and he can't even get his old quorum of loyal 
servants to show up for his rebirth).  

~Rosmerta~




From andeinmn at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 03:16:37 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 23:16:37 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: oops..and a wondering....
Message-ID: <6c.938bc1f.27fd3d95@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15962

In a message dated 4/4/01 12:30:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
aprilgc at ivillage.com writes:

> I think as far as rules go, 
>  Snape's just as hard on Slytherins as anybody else (maybe harder 
>  because he has to show the other houses how students are "supposed" to 
>  behave).

Can you give me some examples of this?  I can't claim to have the books 
memorized
(I'm working on it, I'm working on it!) but, to me, he has always seemed 
overwhelmingly partial to student from his own house.

Andrea



From andeinmn at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 03:23:52 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 23:23:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Attacking the Fat Lady
Message-ID: <b7.cdd23d9.27fd3f48@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15963

In a message dated 4/4/01 1:42:52 PM Central Daylight Time, ra_1013 at yahoo.com 
writes:

> My thought was that Sirius attacked the Fat Lady out
>  of sheer frustration.  He's been locked up in Azkaban
>  for twelve years, which is far from a happy place, and
>  was basically hanging onto his sanity by the skin of
>  his teeth.  His *one* thought is to GET PETER - out of
>  revenge and out of concern for his godson.  He knows
>  if he can just get into the common room he can take
>  care of Peter once and for all, without any real
>  problem (everyone would just assume the cat ate
>  Scabbers).  The only thing standing in his way is the
>  Fat Lady, who won't let him in.  I'd slash her too!
>  
>  
>  Andrea
>  (Sticking my head out for a first posting - be nice!)
>  

Welcome Andrea from another!  I absolutely agree with you.  I also think 
that, more than revenge, Sirius is driven by his desperation to protect 
Harry, no matter how his tactics look to others.  He had no way of knowing 
that Peter was a traitor, yet he blames himself for the death of James and 
Lily.  I think he sees protecting Harry as the only thing he can do for the 
friends he lost so many years ago.

Andrea from Minnesota



From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 04:05:32 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 04:05:32 -0000
Subject: DEs DID Know - Fat Lady
In-Reply-To: <9ag2fk+5tjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9agquc+lood@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15964

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Now, given his state of mind, he probably stormed up to her, 
demanded 
> that she let him in, and when she (unsurprisingly) refused, he lost 
> it.  However, I do like to imagine a slightly different scene, in 
> which an initially calm Sirius tries to sweet-talk the Fat Lady--if 
> teenage Sirius was at all the way 90% of fanfic imagines him, he 
> probably used to flirt with her*--and gets increasingly angry as 
she 
> won't give in to cajoling or threats, and as his precious window of 
> the feast shrinks.  THEN he loses it. 
> 
> I have a lot of sympathy for Sirius in this incident, either way 
(hi, 
> Andrea--welcome to "Bad Tempers Anonymous"!).  And I don't take 
> Dumbledore's "Sirius has not acted like an innocent man" as in any 
way 
> meaning that D himself doubts his innocence, but simply as a "this 
> really wouldn't look good to a jury."
> 
> Amy Z

There is no way that Dumbledore doubts Black's innocence. If he had a 
shadow of a doubt, he would have not arranged for Hermione and Harry 
to rescue him. Dumbledore is in constant contact with Sirius from 
then on.

Sirius did not act like an innocent man. I believe he was seriously 
affected by his time in Azkaban. By his own story, he became obsessed 
with Peter Pettigrew. He wanted to find and kill him. He didn't care 
what he had to do in order to do it. This was coupled by the fact 
that he was obsessed with saving Harry. Voldemort had killed Harry's 
parents...Sirius was James' best friend.. James Potter and Sirius 
Black.....Pettigrew had betrayed James and Lily, caused their death, 
escaped retribution and sent Sirius to Azkaban! The Dementors drain 
every happy thought.......they are poison.....they poison the 
spirit...

So Sirius was not being his "best self"...although his behavior is 
totally understandable. He was in an "any means necessary" mode and 
in that mode he slashed the Fat Lady and went looking for Peter with 
a knife. In many ways, Harry saved him and Remus from becoming 
killers.

Susan
> 
> *this assumes he was in Gryffindor, an unsettled question I am not 
> intending to re-open!
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
>  Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer 
>  giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of 
>  young Australian witches and wizards have attempted 
>  to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging 
>  in order to enjoy these side effects . . . 
>            -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
> -----------------------------------------------------




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 04:27:01 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:27:01 EDT
Subject: Ron character sketch - coming soon
Message-ID: <9a.12757611.27fd4e15@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15966

My humble apologies to this list (one of my all time favorite lists as 
indicated by how upset I got when I thought it might be cancelled),

I am very sorry my Ron Weasley character sketch is late....I am working 
furiously on it, and will post pages 1 - 2 later tonight......

There are a slew of reasons, but no excuses....

Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr  5 04:48:02 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:48:02 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: X-POST: Logo competition winner
Message-ID: <00cc01c0bd8b$ae28ff00$323670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15967

Dear Members,

Apologies to those of you on e-mail setting, who will have received my
impromptu announcement of the winner of our logo competition (ahem -
intended for the Moderators only), and apologies to Rebecca for revealing
that she fell for John's April Fool (she wasn't alone there, I guess).  I'm
a bit like Liz Taylor, trying to open the golden envelope and announce the
winner before I've read the nominations.  It was lack of sleep.... hit the
wrong button...zzzzzzz

Anyway, those of you who were checking the competition poll will have
noticed that No.10 - the groovy purple Sorting Hat - was well in the lead
and we can now reveal that it was indeed the winner!!!

Huge thanks to all the other entrants.

For those of you on webview only, the winner was Rebecca Yoo, a website
designer from Michigan, who has a really nice website at
http://www.tie-dyed-moose.com/ (since she doesn't win anything, I will take
the liberty of giving her website a plug <g>)

You can expect to see the logo popping up in an HPfGU area near you, very
soon.

Thank you and goodnight (actually, good morning, as it's 5.45am in the UK)

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Apr  5 07:03:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 02:03:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle vs Voldemort (Was: Feeling his pain)
References: <9ag8ll+ssij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c0bd9e$896edb40$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15968




Crystal wrote:
>
> Dumbledore has told Harry to not be afraid to use people's names
before.  There was (I believe) something right after that about
avoiding Voldemorts true name only instills more fear. The reason
people flinch so much when they hear "Voldemort" is because that
makes him more real, somehow.
*****************

Sort of like cancer ... but then Voldemort is also sort of like cancer ..
the cancer of the wizard world.

On a lighter note, maybe if Harry says "Tom Morvolo Riddle" out loud to
Voldie, he will be banished to a spirit like state ... oh .. never mind ...
that was Superman and what's his name ... sorry.

Disregard the blonde from Iowa whose heroes all wear capes


But Lord Voldemort is *not* his "true name."  His true name would be
Tom Marvolo Riddle, something that only Harry and Dumbledore know.
When he sank into the dark arts so heavily, I think he changed his
name for two reasons. 1) He wanted no part of the Muggle father who
abandoned him and 2) He knew that Tom Riddle was not a name with
which to inspire fear.  He tells Harry in CoS that he had started
calling himself LV while in school, but only his most intimate
friends knew it.  (Query:  Where are those friends now and who
were/are they?)

Okay, I am rambling, but here's my point.  What would happen if
Voldy's true identity were known by the rest of the wizarding world?
How would that influence the upcoming fight?  ("That's who You-know-
who is?  Why, I went to school with that dispicable little prat!  I
always knew he'd turn out to be no good. He convinced Binns I cheated
on the Goblin Rebellion exam! Let me at him!") Would it make any
difference?  How about if it were common knowledge he was a half-
Muggle himself?  How would his minions react to that?

Trina, using GoF as a booster seat on top of a stepstool while her
computer desk chair is being fixed.



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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 10:32:35 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:32:35 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9abber+k9h1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ahhk3+d4c8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15969

Another (plotwise) reason for Snape not to return as a spy is that 
Harry has openly mused about the possibility at the end of year 
feast.  I think JKR's up to her most obvious and frequently used 
narrative trick again.  She has already repeatedly used Harry's POV 
to mislead us about Snape for the last four books,  If Harry has 
thought of it, it's almost automatically untrue.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 11:48:27 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:48:27 EDT
Subject: Character Sketch - Ron Weasley Part I - friendship and destiny
Message-ID: <95.93ce32e.27fdb58b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15970

Ron Weasley.
 
Ron Weasley is of course a major character in the world created by J.K. 
Rowlings. He is Harry Potter?s first friend. He is one third ofthe triad of 
Ron, Hermione and Harry. And he is part of the Weasley family ? a family that 
as we learn more about, we learn is very important and influential in the 
wizard world.
 
This disorganized character sketch focuses on: Harry and Ron?s friendship; 
Ron?s journey into adolescence; Ron and the Weasley family; Ron?s demons; 
Ron?s character, talents, abilities, adventures and achievements; and Ron?s 
future.
 
In relationship to Harry and Harry?s relationship to him:
 
Is Ron Harry?s first friend? Or is it Hagrid who rescued Harry from the house 
where his parents were killed and then rescues him from the Dursleys?
 
The Philosopher?s Stone paints a bleak picture of Harry?s life before 
Hogwarts. Locked in a cupboard, never allowed to have fun or to go to the 
park or the zoo, Harry witnesses Dudley showered with gifts, while he himself 
has never received even a card on this birthday. Harry?s best days are when 
he successfully hides or is ignored.? He spent countless hours and energy 
avoiding Dudley and his friends who tormented and hit him.? ?At school, Harry 
had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley?s gang hated that odd Harry Potter in 
his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with 
Dudley?s gang.?
 
It is within this context that Harry meets Ron Weasley. 
 
Just before Harry meets Ron, Harry meets Draco Malfoy. Many children who are 
bullied and/or abused make a decision at some point to either join the ranks 
of those who themselves bully or champion those who are bullied. Harry has 
the opportunity to hang out with the rich elite of Hogwarts. Draco explicitly 
invites him to join those who see themselves as the pureblood elite at 
Hogwarts.? Harry has money inherited from his parents and could easily join 
Malfoy?s crowd. The Sorting Hat would have made him a Slytherin<A HREF="file://C:\WINDOWS\Personal\%23_ftn1">[1]</A>. Malfoy 
even? threatens him with death if he refuses (?you?ll go the same way as 
your parents?) Yet the cost to Harry if he joins with Malfoy? 
He would have to reject Hagrid the first person who befriended him and Ron, 
who he has chosen as his friend. 
 
Harry immediately rejects Draco. In a historic moment, he sides with Ron and 
one of the great friendships and alliances is forged. (It is significant that 
Hermione does not become their friend until Chapter 13 of PS/SS.  ?From that 
moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend? (italics are mine).
Without knowing it, Harry is also allying himself with the Weasley family and 
rejecting the Malfoy family which has great significance in the larger world.
 
Ron and Harry are both afraid of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. For? the first of 
many times, they support each other, are brave, confront an enemy and 
prevail. They share their firstvictory. They share food. They share their 
fears about Hogwarts. They are bothf ascinated by the other. Ron is 
fascinated to meet the boy who lived, he who survived the murderous attack of 
Lord Voldemort and has a scar (cool!) to prove it. Harry voraciously gobbles 
every morsel of information that Ron gives him about wizards, witches, 
Hogwarts, Houses, dragons and Quidditch.
 
Does Ron have any friends before he goes to Hogwarts?


<A HREF="file://C:\WINDOWS\Personal\%23_ftnref1">[1]</A> The Chamber of Secrets. 
?So I should be in Slytherin?. Harry said lookingd esperately into 
Dumbledore?s face. ?The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin?s power in me, and 
it?? Dumbledore ?Put you in Gryffindor??? You know why that was. Think?? 
Harry:? It only put me in Gryffindor.? said Harry in a defeated voice. 
?because I asked not to go in Slytherin.?
?Exactly?, said Dumbldeore..??.It is our choices,Harry, that show what we 
truly are, far more than our abilities?. 

What does this Dumbledore quote say about Ron?


Susan McGee in Saline, Michigan who apologizes for her tardiness..the raucous 
and wonderful sounds of the frogs making love outside my study window 
indicate that Spring is finally on the way






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr  5 12:57:25 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:57:25 -0000
Subject: Magical healing, was Re: oops..and a wondering....
In-Reply-To: <9afloi+f8eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ahq3l+itrd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15971


> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:
> > We know that broken bones can be fixed easily, and it seems that 
cuts 
> > and bruises heal quickly as well. 
> > What we do not know from canon is whether an injury to muscles, 
> > ligaments & tendons, and possibly arteries or veins, can be healed 
as 
> > easily. 
> <snip>
> 
> I think you're right on this.  It seems like deep injuries to skin 
> (like Cedric's burns and Hermione's hands in GoF) require more than 
> just insta-healing.  That may be true of muscles and ligaments as 
well 
> (otherwise the wizard Arthur W. borrowed the tent from would not 
suffer 
> from lumbago).  Hmmm...that may also explain why Moody still has a 
> chunk missing out of his nose and didn't just get his leg regrown.  
> Maybe if there's too much damage to skin and muscle the folks are 
just 
> out of luck.
> Of course, there may not have been a healer around that he trusted 
> enough to give him a potion, so maybe his injuries don't count as 
> evidence. <g>
> a.

I do have another evidence, but I can't give you the exact Words, 
because I don't have an Englisch Version of PoA ( Oh no, I hope the 
translator didn't do it again?): When Hagrid was announced as the new 
Teacher of Magical Creeatures, Dumbledore said the Prof. before him 
went, to enjoy his remaining limbs ( or something similiar), so it is 
clear, that some (magical?) injuries can't be healed or at least only 
with great efforts. Remember, Hermione was in the hospital wing for 
weeks in CoS after the polyjuice- potion went wrong.

Mecki
(84% obsessed to Harry Potter - And I can't stand having to wait so 
long for HP5)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 14:48:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:48:27 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Disappearing Neville - funniest moments
In-Reply-To: <9ad28l+6sak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ai0jr+nfpt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15972

Ellen wrote:

>I started examining the 
> ties in each still, and in one, showing Ron, Harry, Hermione and 
> Draco in the Forbidden forest (Yes, Hermione, not Neville!)  Draco 
> was clearly wearing a Green and silver striped tie.  

Actually, it's Ron who's bumped Neville.  In the book he's in the 
hospital wing, and so it's just H&H who smuggle Norbert and get nailed 
for being out of bed.

So we have the Forbidden Forest without Neville, which probably means 
the caught-out-of-bed-at-midnight without Neville, and if the scream 
is in response to Fluffy, we have meeting-Fluffy without Neville.  
This stinks.  If I didn't know they'd cast Neville, I'd be worried 
they'd taken him out entirely.  I want more Neville!  Sniff!

I've been re-listening to PoA and one of the funniest scenes ever, 
IMO, has to be the first Divination class.  Harry on Ron's tealeaves: 
 "So you're going to suffer, but be very happy."  Ron on Harry's 
tealeaves:  "There's a blob a bit like a bowler hat.  Maybe you're 
going to work for the Ministry of Magic."  Even the serious lines are 
funny.  "When you've all finished deciding whether I'm going to die or 
not . . . "  And beforehand we get Sir Cadogan (and Trelawney's 
nameplate on the trapdoor--I love that little detail!), and afterward 
we get Prof. McGonagall giving Harry a break on his homework if he's 
dead.  ("Tell me, which of you is going to die this year?"  "Me!")

Amy Z
giggling

-------------------------------------------------
  "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
  "He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" 
 he added to Harry.
  "What?" said Harry.
  "*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
  "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
               --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr  5 15:48:56 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 15:48:56 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch - Ron Weasley Part I - friendship and destiny
In-Reply-To: <95.93ce32e.27fdb58b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ai458+e28i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15973

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> Ron Weasley.
>  
>  
> Ron and Harry are both afraid of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. For?? 
the first of 
> many times, they support each other, are brave, confront an enemy 
and 
> prevail. They share their firstvictory. They share food. They share 
their 
> fears about Hogwarts. 

I agree with most of what you say, apart from this part about Harry 
and Ron being scared of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.  I don't think they 
are afraid.  I think that they despise and dislike (even hate - I am 
sure there has been burning hatred between Harry and Draco) them, and 
are perhaps a little intimidated by the rather obvious gorilla like, 
brute strength of the sidekicks, but not afraid.  In fact, I would go 
as far as to say that they look down on Crabbe and Goyle, as they 
make fun of their lack of intellect and general stupidity.  

I think one of the greatest comic scenes in the books is when Harry 
and Ron take the Polyjuice potion and transform into C and G.  
Listening to Stephen Fry talking as H and R, but trying to sound 
gruff and clueless like C and G is a sound for sore ears!

Catherine






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Apr  5 16:32:27 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:32:27 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle-Dee-Dee (filk)
Message-ID: <9ai6mr+p876@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15974

Tom Riddle-Dee-Dee (From CoS, "The Very Secret Diary")

(To the tune of Hey-Diddle-Dee-Dee, from Pinocchio) 

Dedicated to Lisa

(The Scene: HARRY'S room in Gryffindor.  He ponders the seemingly 
ordinary yet mysteriously peculiar diary of  one Tom Marvolo Riddle)

HARRY
Tom Riddle, you see
Owned this tattered diary 
It was with Myrtle, it sorta stank
And all inside it's a complete blank  

Tom Riddle could be 
Still with this diary
The puzzle has made me quite perplexed
Perhaps if I entered a line of text
..?

(HARRY does so, and the diary responds with text of its own)

Tom Riddle is back!
And does he like to yack!

HARRY (reading the text from the diary)
"Tom Riddle, you know 
Was a student long ago
I served as prefect and as head boy
I fought those who Hogwarts would destroy"

"Tom Riddle is me!
Now step inside and see
Take a tour of my domain
The Chamber of Secrets I shall explain
But please don't ask to see my brain.
So, ready? ? One, two, three!"

(HARRY plunges into the vortex of the Riddle Diary)

    - CMC
    





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Apr  5 18:01:52 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 18:01:52 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
Message-ID: <9aibug+ohen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15975

MMMfanfic wrote that if Harry explicitly thought of something, he 
would be proved wrong by JKR.  Very good point!  I associate myself 
with his sentiments.  In addition, I seem to remember that at the end 
of GoF, they spoke of Snape's task in the past tense, as if it had 
already been accomplished.  Is this at all significant?

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr  5 18:53:29 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 18:53:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9aibug+ohen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aiev9+76hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15976

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
>  I seem to remember that at the end 
> of GoF, they spoke of Snape's task in the past tense, as if it had 
> already been accomplished.  Is this at all significant?
> 
> Haggridd 

I think so - looking at the scene with Dumbledore again -
"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must 
ask you to do.  If you are ready...if you are prepared..."
"I am," said Sanpe.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes 
glittered strangely.
"Then, good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of 
apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
(Ch 36,pg 619 English Edition)

>From this, and in particular the way Dumbledore wishes Snape luck I 
would suppose that Snape's task is to take place immediately.  And I 
also think that it involves an element of danger, as Snape is 
nervous, and Dumbledore is concerned, and knows that he is asking a 
lot (and there may be some lingering doubts as to whether Snape is up 
to it, but isn't likely considering the "great personal risk 
comment).  No further reference is made about Snape until the leaving 
feast, which is when Harry ponders, as Haggrid says, over what Snape 
had done that night.  

Another thing which struck me, on rereading this again was the 
ambiguity over Harry's interpretation of Snape at the feast:-

"His eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry looked at him.  His 
expression was as difficult to read.  He looked as sour and as 
unpleasant as ever."

The last sentence is typical, but, unusually IMO, Snape is not 
looking at Harry with contempt or hatred, or malice...Is it possible 
that their relationship will undergo some subtle changes, even if 
this is not obvious on the surface?  Particularly if Snape's attitude 
to Draco and the Malfoys (sounds like a 60s band) has changed now he 
has heard from Harry that Lucius is a DE?  Harry, too, shows that 
although he does not entirely trust Snape, he is willing, for the 
time being, to trust Dumbledore on this one. (Is that a first?)  

Catherine,
Who is still faint but pursuing in trying to persuade everyone that 
Snape went to Voldemort that night.




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Apr  5 18:26:58 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:26:58 -0400
Subject: Snape Sighting
References: <9aiev9+76hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACCB8F2.D8E2AEF6@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15977

I was engaged today in my Nth reading of Georgette Heyer's
delightful novel THE FOUNDLING, when I was suddenly brought up
short by . . . the name "Snape"!

Now, how =could= I have forgotten that one of the main characters
in this book has a very disagreeable tutor by that name?  Not
that he is anywhere near as interesting (or as important to the
plot) as Our Severus, but it's an amusing coincidence.  

More than a coincidence?  Well, possibly.  If Jane Austen is one
of Rowling's favorite authors, she may have read Heyer, too.  JKR
has also said that she gets a lot of her names off of the map (of
England, one assumes) and in one interview I read recently
specifically mentioned "Snape" as one of the towns she'd better
not visit.  :)  Heyer is also known to have taken most of her
character surnames from English town names.  So they may simply
have hit upon the same town independently.  OTOH, who knows? 
Rowling may have read THE FOUNDLING years ago, so when she was
looking on the map for a name for a teacher whom the main
character didn't like, "Snape" seemed strangely appropriate . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 20:11:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 20:11:30 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <9aibug+ohen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aijhi+u1qj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15978

Haggridd wrote:

> In addition, I seem to remember that at the end 
> of GoF, they spoke of Snape's task in the past tense, as if it had 
> already been accomplished.  Is this at all significant?

I was surprised to see Snape at the leaving feast--I thought, "He's 
back already?!"  Whatever mission he went out on that night, he came 
back from alive (unless V killed him and sent someone back as 
Polyjuiced Severus).  But I don't imagine his task is anywhere close 
to over . . . there are three books to go, a fact for which I thank 
heaven.  (What will we do when the last one is finished?)

Amy Z
who still leans toward the idea that Snape went to find Voldemort 
that night, even if Harry does say so




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 20:28:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 20:28:25 -0000
Subject: Dragon's blood for those tedious household tasks
Message-ID: <9aikh9+97cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15979

There was some back and forth a few days ago regarding whether the 
12th use of dragon's blood, or indeed any use, is ever mentioned in 
canon.  I didn't think so, but knew I'd read about it somewhere.  I 
finally tracked it down.  It was on Jenna's page, which I cannot for 
the life of me find (unless this is it), but here's the same 
information.  It was given as a rumor on the "facts and rumors" page 
below.  "Tom Riddle reports: 'The twelfth use of Dragon's blood is 
oven cleaner!'" 

http://potterinfo.tripod.com/rumors.html

Tom Riddle, eh?  Not the most honest guy.  However, the following 
article quotes a more reliable source: "J.K. Rowling says the twelfth 
use is oven cleaner."  

http://www.kids.infoplease.lycos.com/spot/harrypotter1.html

Amy Z
who never cleans her oven--
just running it at 500 degrees for awhile does the trick, right?





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr  5 22:56:37 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 22:56:37 -0000
Subject: Dragon's blood for those tedious household tasks
In-Reply-To: <9aikh9+97cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ait75+6ehb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15980

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> There was some back and forth a few days ago regarding whether the 
> 12th use of dragon's blood, or indeed any use, is ever mentioned in 
> canon.  I didn't think so, but knew I'd read about it somewhere.  I 
> finally tracked it down.  It was on Jenna's page, which I cannot 
for 
> the life of me find (unless this is it), but here's the same 
> information.  It was given as a rumor on the "facts and rumors" 
page 
> below.  "Tom Riddle reports: 'The twelfth use of Dragon's blood is 
> oven cleaner!'" 
> 
> http://potterinfo.tripod.com/rumors.html
> 
> Tom Riddle, eh?  Not the most honest guy.  However, the following 
> article quotes a more reliable source: "J.K. Rowling says the 
twelfth 
> use is oven cleaner."  
> 
> http://www.kids.infoplease.lycos.com/spot/harrypotter1.html
> 
If Amy, or anyone else is interested in spending some time trying to 
track down the source of the oven cleaner rumor, I am sure I read it 
in an interview with the guy who is writing the screenplay.  I dont 
remember his name, but doubtless one of you out there does.  The 
interview may have been on salon.com, or a similar type of website.  
Happy searching! -- Joywitch




From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 23:43:30 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:43:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle vs Voldemort (Was: Feeling his pain)
References: <9agkr2+frmt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE39aIb9Y1ESlJEhupE000002f8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15981

Hey (stuff is @ bottom as usual),
The general reaction of the world (wizarding) over Voldy's reveled identity would most likely cause an unfortunate blend of bewilderment and revenge.  Bewilderment: the fave question of the day would be "How did that scrawny little git terrify us for so long?"  Revenge: the fave call to arms would be: "He's just a homeless, half breed, we can defeat him.  Don't know what took Harry so long!"
His "followers" would think the same thing then the "smart ones" would remember that he does have some of the strongest magic in the world ("I think I like him being in charge, at least I get to keep my head"). 

It's probably a good thing that Dumbledore kept his identity a secret.  The death toll would be greater than it already is and Voldy would have more incentive for going after Harry.  What do you think?

~Adrienne~

******************************************************************************************************************
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
                                                ~William James~
******************************************************************************************************************

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rosmerta 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:21 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle vs Voldemort (Was: Feeling his pain)


  Trina wrote:
  What would happen if 
  Voldy's true identity were known by the rest of the wizarding world? How would that influence the upcoming fight?("That's who You-know-who is?  Why, I went to school with that dispicable little prat!  I always knew he'd turn out to be no good. He convinced Binns I cheated 
  on the Goblin Rebellion exam! Let me at him!") Would it make any difference?  How about if it were common knowledge he was a half-Muggle himself?  How would his minions react to that?

  An even better question: how would the rest of the wizarding world react? At the end of GoF we see Dumbledore & Co. preparing for battle (reaching out to the giants etc.) but maybe the war at this point should be mostly PR. The worst thing that could happen is for the majority of wizards to react the way Fudge did--incredulously blaming 
  the bad-news bearers. 

  Dumbledore could shake a lot of people out of that paranoid paralysis by saying Voldemort's name as freqently and as loudly as possible, and by painting him as the has-been loser that he is (the guy was crawling in the dirt as an undead being for 13 years; for his big comeback number, he attacks a wounded 14-year-old boy who still manages to defeat him; and he can't even get his old quorum of loyal 
  servants to show up for his rebirth).  

  ~Rosmerta~



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From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  6 01:38:58 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:38:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: oops..and a wondering....
References: <6c.938bc1f.27fd3d95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE54X3cf3ednHM3SOlb000002ff@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15982

This is just off the top of my head, but here goes....
1) Harry comes to his first double Potions with Slytherin and  Snape asks him all sorts of questions about asophodel and wormwood then takes points from Griff. b/c Harry doesn't know the answers.  
2) Harry, Ron, and Hermione are on the grounds and huddled around a bottled flame, conjured by Hermione, when the see Snape limping across the grass.  sure that the flame is illegal, they try to conceal the flame.  Snape sees the guilt on their faces and, being in an already bad mood, Snape makes up a rule about library books being outside the castle and takes the book and 5 points from Griff.  

I'm kinda outta the HP thing right now (Math Homework) and I don't have the books infron of me, so those are the only 2 I could come up with. Another excuse would be that I want to leave room for the other peeps to dis Snape!

~Adrienne~

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: andeinmn at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: oops..and a wondering....


  In a message dated 4/4/01 12:30:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
  aprilgc at ivillage.com writes:

   I think as far as rules go, Snape's just as hard on Slytherins as anybody else (maybe harder because he has to show the other houses how students are "supposed" to  behave).

  Can you give me some examples of this?  I can't claim to have the books memorized (I'm working on it, I'm working on it!) but, to me, he has always seemed overwhelmingly partial to student from his own house.

  Andrea

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

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  From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

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From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr  6 03:02:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 22:02:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Mission/Task
References: <9aiev9+76hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACD31B7.8E613A88@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15983

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Another thing which struck me, on rereading this again was the
> ambiguity over Harry's interpretation of Snape at the feast:-
>
> "His eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry looked at him.  His
> expression was as difficult to read.  He looked as sour and as
> unpleasant as ever."
>
> The last sentence is typical, but, unusually IMO, Snape is not looking
> at Harry with contempt or hatred, or malice...Is it possible that
> their relationship will undergo some subtle changes, even if this is
> not obvious on the surface?

I have postulated before that this is the very first time that Snape is
seeing Harry as Harry, just Harry, on his own merits, instead of through
a screen of past associations (whatever they might be). I think their
relationship will indeed be changing, although I'm doubting anything on
the surface will be different. Harry had a lesser, but no less palpable,
"association screen" for Snape, too, and now is seeing him as an ally.

Harry's interactions with all the teachers, all the adults, must be
different now, I think, because Harry has gone through this baptism of
fire and no matter how he wishes to, he can never go back to being
simply a boy of 14. He's faced adult trials and dangers, and will be
dealing with some of the letdown you feel when you realize that the
grownups *don't* have all the answers, and that you might just be grown
up, too. [I hope that made sense...I think it says what I was trying to
get across..]

> Catherine,
> Who is still faint but pursuing in trying to persuade everyone that
> Snape went to Voldemort that night.

Power, to you and my soul-sister Amy Z! Let us believers hold true and
they'll come around....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr  6 03:06:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 22:06:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Mission/Task
References: <9aiev9+76hp@eGroups.com> <3ACD31B7.8E613A88@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3ACD32A8.EF907984@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15984

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> > "His eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry looked at him.
> His > expression was as difficult to read.  He looked as sour and as
> unpleasant as ever."

I forgot something. The sentence following this is something along the
lines of "Harry continued to look at him long after Snape had looked
away." Hmmm.

I didn't get the impression this was a staring contest; more that they
both were beyond that. This is the first time that Snape's gaze has not
been characterized as menacing or penetrating in some way; either he
looks different or Harry's perceptions of him have been very altered.
This is the first time that locking gazes with Snape has not been a
test. And this is the first time that Snape has notably been the one to
look away. Interesting that this is just mentioned in passing, that
Harry keeps looking after Snape looks away. It's not presented as a
triumph of Harry's, or a loss of Snape's, or any of the usual
"confrontation" language we get with Snape; they're just looking at each
other. Snape just looks away first. Harry just keeps looking. Very, very
different; this stood out to me on my very first reading. Something very
basic has changed.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Apr  6 03:34:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 03:34:02 -0000
Subject: "Let's Hold the Fanfic Off" (filk)
Message-ID: <9ajdfa+ts7e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15985

"Let's Hold the Fanfic Off" by Pippin
 A fans versus purists filk about Draco, to the tune of
"Let's Call The Whole Thing Off"
Dedicated to Caius Marcus and Cassandra Claire


Enter Stage Left, The Purists
Enter Stage Right, The Draco Fandom

PURISTS
There's Draco in canon
And Draco in fanon
The difference between them's  as wide as a canyon
Abandoning canon,  there should be a ban on
Let's hold the fanfic off

FANDOM
You say  he's nasty             
You say he's wack-o     
We love our Draco and we say he's macho
He's macho, muchacho, that's our fanon Draco
Why don't you bugger off?

PURISTS
Jo says in dress robes
He looks like a churchman
FANDOM
He wears Armani, so sexy it hurts man
PURISTS
He may be hotter than Harry J Potter but
Jo's gonna Kiss him off.

PURISTS
He's just a fascist
Like Goebbels and Goering
FANDOM
His politics could be just a red herring
In the grand scheme we know
He'll  be redeemed so
Call those Dementors off.

PURISTS
Whenever there's danger
He shows the white feather
FANDOM
Who cares about that,  he looks good in leather
PURISTS
White feather
FANDOM
Black leather
He's got it together
Let's take his trousers off!





From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 03:35:11 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 03:35:11 -0000
Subject: Snape's Mission/Task
In-Reply-To: <3ACD32A8.EF907984@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ajdhf+h0p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15986


> Amanda Lewanski wrote:

 This is the first time that Snape's gaze has not
> been characterized as menacing or penetrating in some way; either he
> looks different or Harry's perceptions of him have been very 
altered.
> This is the first time that locking gazes with Snape has not been a
> test. And this is the first time that Snape has notably been the 
one to
> look away. Interesting that this is just mentioned in passing, that
> Harry keeps looking after Snape looks away. It's not presented as a
> triumph of Harry's, or a loss of Snape's, or any of the usual
> "confrontation" language we get with Snape; they're just looking at 
each
> other. Snape just looks away first. Harry just keeps looking. Very, 
very
> different; this stood out to me on my very first reading. Something 
very
> basic has changed.

I agree with this reading.  It seems to me that both Snape and Harry 
are both beginning to read each other on the other's terms (at least 
partially).  And that is the first step toward achieving an intimacy 
of mind.  This scene is the one that made me suspect Dumbledore will 
(at least once) deliberately pair Snape and Harry in a stage of the 
coming war.  It's not as obvious a pairing as one between, say, Snape 
and Sirius--fighting together might make them reconcile--but despite 
being low-key, this scene has more mind-thrilling promise to me than 
the "shake-and-make-up" scene between Sirius and Snape.  Though I 
always laugh when I read *that* scene, it's so pungent.

Lisa, who noticed that the "How old are you?" poll was posted on her 
birthday, and who can now die happy, having had a Caius filk 
dedicated to her.  <bg>




From yumeno at mindspring.com  Fri Apr  6 05:20:56 2001
From: yumeno at mindspring.com (yumeno at mindspring.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 01:20:56 -0400
Subject: Wands and Magic : was Random Musings from a lurker
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.986534456.0.22129000@www.springmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15987


Indigo wrote:

<Not entirely true.

Harry had several occasions had magickal things happen before he ever 
set foot in Hogwarts.

Ending up on the roof when he jumped to attempt a beating from Dudley 
and his bully boys.

<Turning a teacher's wig blue.

*snip rest of list*

You're right about that, I'd forgotten. (teach me to post at 1 am..)

But on the other hand, Harry has been in plenty of stressful and/or dangerous situations since then, usually without his wand and he's never done anything like that instinctive magic since Book 1. And all that happened before he went to school and got his wand. 

That makes me think that maybe being trained in magic and having a wand might "shut-off" a connection between a wizard's unconcious and their powers. Harry was able to do things like jumping to the roof and shrinking his sweater before knowing he was a wizard and knew anything about magic. So, when faced with danger, his body and powers reacted unconciously to save him.

But, now that Harry knows he's got magic and that he's supposed to be using a wand for it, the connection's been broken. Instead of using his powers instinctively, he knows he's supposed to be using a wand for his magic and he can't use those powers without his wand. So, therefore he hasn't been using his power like that, even when he's lost his wand in a dangerous situation. (Riddle, end of GoF)

I also wonder if that instinctive magic might only be seen in Muggle-born children. Wizard children would already know about magic and what they are, so that unconcious reaction is lost to them.
(I hope this is making sense. @.@)

<Plus, having a wand doesn't necessarily mean your magic is all that 
good. Gilderoy Lockhart (feh!) turned Harry's arm boneless and 
rubbery and at least once the wand got all wobbly and jumped out of 
his grip or was dropped.  

Lockhart would be a moron whether he were a Wizard or a Muggle. ^-^
I agree, I'm not saying all wizards are competent just because they use a wand. There's bound to be individual degrees of proficiency and talent from wizard to wizard.

Tavichan
np : through the night / outlaw star opening




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Apr  6 05:31:53 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:31:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and Magic : was Random Musings from a lurker
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.986534456.0.22129000@www.springmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104060129100.19829-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15988

On Fri, 6 Apr 2001 yumeno at mindspring.com wrote:

> I also wonder if that instinctive magic might only be seen in
> Muggle-born children. Wizard children would already know about magic
> and what they are, so that unconcious reaction is lost to them. (I
> hope this is making sense. @.@)

It makes sense, but I think it's contradicted by canon.  Remember the
bit about Neville being tossed out a window to force him to show magic
(which he did; he bounced)?  That was magic performed without a wand,
much like the things Harry did.  

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's fics (and other cool stuff):
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash/
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From yumeno at mindspring.com  Fri Apr  6 05:32:03 2001
From: yumeno at mindspring.com (yumeno at mindspring.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 01:32:03 -0400
Subject: Snapes task (Harry, Moody, Dementors) - Wands
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.986535123.0.34426600@www.springmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15989

Amy Z wrote:

<There are some ways of doing magic that don't seem to involve a 
wand:  divination, potions, Animagus transfigurations (Sirius didn't 
need his wand to transform back and forth in Azkaban).  Some, like 
these, are full-fledged wandless magic, while others, like Harry's 
breaking Marge's wineglass and inflating Marge herself, are the kind 
of uncontrolled magic that JKR recently referred to in the Comic 
Relief chat, I believe it was; she was asked whether you can do magic 
without a wand, and she said yes, but it generally takes a wand to 
focus and control it. 

<These cases, plus the background knowledge that there is some kind of 
qualitative difference between wizards and Muggles/Squibs (as seen in 
the case of young wizards who do magic without knowing how, or even 
that it exists, e.g. Harry and Colin), show that it's not all the 
wandit's partly the witch or wizard.  How much of each?  I wouldn't 
venture to guess, but the magic definitely isn't all in the wand.

<Some magical objects do their thing even in the hands of Muggles, 
e.g. the dangerous spouting teapot that caused Arthur's office 
trouble on one occasion (CoS).  It seems likely that not all of them 
do, however.  A Muggle might pick up a wand or a broomstick and have 
nothing whatsoever happen.  A broomstick is different from a wand; 
it's basically just wood that's been charmed.  It might be possible 
to charm it in such a way that it takes magical ability on the user's 
part to activate it; if this is possible, I would think that if the 
Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office would insist on it so that an 
innocent Muggle doesn't pick up a Firebolt and find herself going 150 
mph within 10 seconds . . .

*giggles*

Mmmm, I can see your point. Though, I should have been a little more clear about why these questions suddenly popped into my head, and I also forgot to ask another one I was curious about.

Most of this came about because I had an idea about a True Seer fic-that they're supposed to be very rare, etc, etc. However, can you be a Seer and not have any other wizard powers? Would such a person be considered a wizard just for being a true Seer? Or not? That made me wonder about the broomsticks, et al, about whether someone like that would be able to use them. Wands I'm guessing wouldn't do so much, although I still believe that the wands are doing a good bit of the work in magic. There really haven't been any wizards doing wand-free spells, which makes me think that to them it isn't worth the effort. And without a wand they're barred from really doing any effective attacks. This was something I wanted to specifically cover in my story. Potions, et al, aren't something you can just whip out in a fight...
Arrghhh, I'm getting too deep into this, I really am. Fics rot your brain.. at .@

Tavichan
np: through the night /outlaw star opening



From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Apr  6 05:32:05 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 05:32:05 -0000
Subject: "Let's Hold the Fanfic Off" (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ajdfa+ts7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ajkcl+leol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15990

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> "Let's Hold the Fanfic Off" by Pippin
>  A fans versus purists filk about Draco, to the tune of
> "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off"
> Dedicated to Caius Marcus and Cassandra Claire
> 

LOL. Thanks Pippin...you're the best. And *leans over to hear better* 
What was that? Ah. Draco says thank you, too, for giving the 'fandom' 
the last word.

<g>

Cassie




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Apr  6 10:56:33 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 10:56:33 -0000
Subject: Wands and Magic : was Random Musings from a lurker
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.986534456.0.22129000@www.springmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ak7d1+bq51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15991

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., yumeno at m... wrote:
> 
> But on the other hand, Harry has been in plenty of stressful and/or 
dangerous situations since then, usually without his wand and he's 
never done anything like that instinctive magic since Book 1. And all 
that happened before he went to school and got his wand. 
> 
> That makes me think that maybe being trained in magic and having a 
wand might "shut-off" a connection between a wizard's unconcious and 
their powers. <<<

But he did - the exploding wine glass in PoA, then blowing Aunt Marge 
up, were both wandless magics, done after he got his wand. 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  6 11:07:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:07:12 -0000
Subject: Lousy guardians (was Wands and Magic)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104060129100.19829-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <9ak810+m0sr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15992

Jen Faulkner wrote:
 
> It makes sense, but I think it's contradicted by canon.  Remember 
the
> bit about Neville being tossed out a window to force him to show 
magic
> (which he did; he bounced)?  

Now, let's not be too hard on Great-Uncle Algie.  He didn't actually 
toss Neville out a window--he just held him out there and, uh, dropped 
him by mistake.  After all, he couldn't very well hold a meringue and 
his nephew at the same time, could he?

I think Neville and Harry should band together and demand that 
Wizarding Youth Services provide them a decent home.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
   "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia.  Her lips tightened
 as they always did if he dared to ask a question.
   "Your new school uniform," she said.
   Harry looked in the bowl again.
   "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
                           -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
-------------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr  6 12:05:33 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 07:05:33 -0500
Subject: A Dark Mark thought
Message-ID: <3ACDB10D.66FD9C4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15993

I just had the rather grim thought that there might be a bit more to the
Dark Mark on the Death Eaters than we've heard. Perhaps Snape's task is
simply that he must work directly for Voldemort's Ultimate Destruction,
and the reason he looks pale but ready is that the Dark Mark also will
kill its wearers when Voldemort dies. Snape is being asked to
systematically, directly, purposefully work toward his own death, and if
I know Voldemort, a nasty one. This makes his task a potentially
three-book one, a nasty one, a demanding one, and one that would allow
him to be at the ending feast in GoF looking unpleasantly but
differently at Harry (whether or not he's contacted Voldemort).

It seems very Voldemort-ish that the Mark would be conditional like
that--a Death Eater must tie his destiny to his master so completely,
and it would ensure their loyalty and fanatic protection of him, too.

The problem is, it faded from view, but they didn't die, so if this
theory is correct, they all must have known that he was alive, in some
form, someplace--after all, they weren't dead. Is this why V. was so
angry that only one came to find him? Because he knew they knew he was
out there? And is this why the Longbottoms were tortured? Because their
torturers *knew* V. was out there somewhere?

I'll have to read the V. & the Death Eaters scene again, with this
thought in mind, and see if it checks out. But I wanted to see what you
all thought. I had the sudden thought of C.S. Lewis, in "The Silver
Chair," when the Lady of the Green Kirtle died, the Underworld went up
in flames, floods, and earth-cracking--"She's the sort who wouldn't mind
dying if she knew that the person who killed her would be burned or
drowned a few minutes later" [paraphrase]. Voldemort seems the sort who
would want his Death Eaters to pay if he were defeated.

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr  6 12:08:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 07:08:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Let's Hold the Fanfic Off" (filk)
References: <9ajkcl+leol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACDB1C3.15200866@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15994

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> LOL. Thanks Pippin...you're the best. And *leans over to hear better*
> What was that? Ah. Draco says thank you, too, for giving the 'fandom'
> the last word.

Only fair, since we of the canon school get the "official" last word via
JKR.

<innocent little grin>

--Amanda
By the way, this was tremendous, Pippin! Scanned perfectly and was
hysterical. I've *got* to stop reading these when I need to go to the
bathroom....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr  6 12:42:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 07:42:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dragon's blood for those tedious household tasks
References: <9ait75+6ehb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ACDB99F.E761FB02@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15995

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> If Amy, or anyone else is interested in spending some time trying to
> track down the source of the oven cleaner rumor, I am sure I read it
> in an interview with the guy who is writing the screenplay.  I dont
> remember his name, but doubtless one of you out there does.  The
> interview may have been on salon.com, or a similar type of website.
> Happy searching! -- Joywitch

I found the screenwriter interview that someone posted the link to;
here's the URL. When I first read it, Part II of the interview wasn't up
yet, so I looked at that, too. A fun interview, although the interviewer
is a bit of a jerk, but no mention of dragon's blood. So it was either
another interview, or you're thinking of something else.

Part I: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
Part II: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8110

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr  6 12:51:17 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:51:17 -0000
Subject: A Dark Mark thought
In-Reply-To: <3ACDB10D.66FD9C4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ake45+d9sp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15996

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I just had the rather grim thought that there might be a bit more to 
the Dark Mark on the Death Eaters than we've heard. Perhaps Snape's 
task is simply that he must work directly for Voldemort's Ultimate 
Destruction, and the reason he looks pale but ready is that the Dark 
Mark also will kill its wearers when Voldemort dies. Snape is being 
asked to systematically, directly, purposefully work toward his own 
death, and if I know Voldemort, a nasty one. 

-----
That gives me the shivers, even as I sit here in my office in bright 
daylight... That?s an excellent theory. It?s almost like a classical 
greek tragedy, where you see the tragic end coming all along, but it?s 
unavoidable...

I DO support the theory that Snape will die a hero?s death fighting 
Voldemort. But if his own fate was tied to Voldemorts as Amanda 
suggests - 

> It seems very Voldemort-ish that the Mark would be conditional like
> that--a Death Eater must tie his destiny to his master so 
completely, and it would ensure their loyalty and fanatic protection 
of him, too.
-------

- and Snape was to die along with Voldemort ANYWAY, I don?t think 
Dumbledore would be as cruel as to ask him to speed things up 
actively.

 We know Snape turned against Voldemort "at great personal risk" while 
Voldemort was still in power. That was a very heroic thing to do. 
Harry probably realises that too, which makes him view  Snape 
differently at the end of GoF. 

I think JKR will want her readers to appreciate, through the eyes of 
Harry, this heroism. But that will not be possible if Snape?s mistake 
(e.g. joining the DE in the first place) can?t be forgiven. And his 
mistake getting him in the end anyway WILL mean that there can be no 
forgiving and no atonement. That simply wouldn?t fit with the humanist 
background in the books.






From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Apr  6 15:29:11 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 15:29:11 -0000
Subject: A Dark Mark thought
In-Reply-To: <9ake45+d9sp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aknc7+93up@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15997

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > I just had the rather grim thought that there might be a bit more 
to 
> the Dark Mark on the Death Eaters than we've heard. Perhaps Snape's 
> task is simply that he must work directly for Voldemort's Ultimate 
> Destruction, and the reason he looks pale but ready is that the Dark 
> Mark also will kill its wearers when Voldemort dies. Snape is being 
> asked to systematically, directly, purposefully work toward his own 
> death, and if I know Voldemort, a nasty one. 
> 
> -----
> That gives me the shivers, even as I sit here in my office in bright 
> daylight... That?s an excellent theory. It?s almost like a classical 
> greek tragedy, where you see the tragic end coming all along, but 
it?s 
> unavoidable...
> 
> I DO support the theory that Snape will die a hero?s death fighting 
> Voldemort. But if his own fate was tied to Voldemorts as Amanda 
> suggests - 
> 
> > It seems very Voldemort-ish that the Mark would be conditional 
like
> > that--a Death Eater must tie his destiny to his master so 
> completely, and it would ensure their loyalty and fanatic protection 
> of him, too.
> -------
> 
> - and Snape was to die along with Voldemort ANYWAY, I don?t think 
> Dumbledore would be as cruel as to ask him to speed things up 
> actively.
> 
I think Dumbledore would be willing to speed things up.

But I don't think he'd be willing to speed things up without seeing if 
there was a way to safely remove the Dark Mark (and replace it with a 
believable fake) or diminish it so Snape only suffered pain on 
Voldemort's death.

Dumbledore believes that Voldemort's return is a matter of utmost 
priority and urgency, but he's too kind a man to subject his people to 
needless torment if there's a way around it, in my opinion.

Indigo





From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 15:31:51 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 15:31:51 -0000
Subject: Wizard Government was Re: Lousy guardians (was Wands and Magic)
In-Reply-To: <9ak810+m0sr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aknh7+q26p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15998

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I think Neville and Harry should band together and demand that 
> Wizarding Youth Services provide them a decent home.

Amy raises an interesting point.  The wizard government is even worse 
than the muggle government in many ways.  Completely lacking in 
social services, even though they are clearly in desperate need of a 
Child Services Agency.  Their educational system seems to consist of 
exactly one secondary school per country -- no post-secondary 
schooling, and as far as we can tell no primary schools either.  
Their judicial system is horrendous -- people get life sentences in 
jail without even a trial, defendents dont seem to get lawyers (on 
the other hand the merits of a society without lawyers are obvious), 
people get their souls sucked out of them as punishment for their 
crimes by a simple order of the Minister, etc.  And how do they 
support their huge bureaucracy, anyway?  They dont seem to have any 
tax collectors.  I think the Ministry of Magic is in desperate need 
of reform.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 15:36:37 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 15:36:37 -0000
Subject: Dragon's blood for those tedious household tasks
In-Reply-To: <3ACDB99F.E761FB02@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9aknq5+q2ad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15999

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> joym999 at a... wrote:
> 
> > If Amy, or anyone else is interested in spending some time trying 
to
> > track down the source of the oven cleaner rumor, I am sure I read 
it
> > in an interview with the guy who is writing the screenplay.  I 
dont
> > remember his name, but doubtless one of you out there does.  The
> > interview may have been on salon.com, or a similar type of 
website.
> > Happy searching! -- Joywitch
> 
> I found the screenwriter interview that someone posted the link to;
> here's the URL. When I first read it, Part II of the interview 
wasn't up
> yet, so I looked at that, too. A fun interview, although the 
interviewer
> is a bit of a jerk, but no mention of dragon's blood. So it was 
either
> another interview, or you're thinking of something else.
> 
> Part I: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
> Part II: http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8110
> 

Sorry, everyone, I wasnt quite clear.  The oven cleaner comment was 
in a much earlier interview with the same guy.  ALthough, come to 
think of it, it might not have been an interview so much as an 
article about the movie which focused on this screenwriter guy.  I 
know its out there somewhere, I just know it!  Really!


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Apr  6 16:20:05 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:20:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Dark Mark thought
References: <3ACDB10D.66FD9C4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <022601c0beb5$ba093ee0$2d38acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 16000

> and the reason he looks pale but ready is that the Dark Mark also will
> kill its wearers when Voldemort dies. Snape is being asked to
> systematically, directly, purposefully work toward his own death, and if
> I know Voldemort, a nasty one. This makes his task a potentially

Amanda, this is a really horrible theory.  I say "horrible" not because it
doesn't make sense, but because it makes so MUCH sense that I have the most
dreadful feeling JKR's going to prove you right.

> The problem is, it faded from view, but they didn't die, so if this
> theory is correct, they all must have known that he was alive, in some
> form, someplace--after all, they weren't dead.

Oh, yeah.  Why do you think they were all in such trouble when he came back?
If the fact of their own survival in the face of all other appearances
hadn't been sufficient proof to them that their master wasn't really dead,
V. would have had no reason to blame them for not seeking him out.

Unless it's something simpler and less dire -- that if V. had died the Dark
Mark would have vanished from the arms of the Death Eaters, whereas it
merely faded, proving he was still barely alive somewhere.

But then, in the actual scene in GoF, the reason V. gives for why they
should have known he was still alive has nothing to do with the Dark Mark.
He says they should have known he was alive, and acted accordingly, because
they knew all the radical things that he had done to himself in search of
immortality -- any true Death Eater would know that his master would simply
not be that easy to kill.

> all thought. I had the sudden thought of C.S. Lewis, in "The Silver
> Chair," when the Lady of the Green Kirtle died, the Underworld went up
> in flames, floods, and earth-cracking--"She's the sort who wouldn't mind
> dying if she knew that the person who killed her would be burned or
> drowned a few minutes later" [paraphrase].

And we already know how much JKR loves the Narnia books.  In spite of what
I've just said about V.'s reasoning in GoF, you may very well have something
here.

But for poor Severus's sake, I hope you don't.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Fri Apr  6 16:33:59 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:33:59 -0000
Subject: Dragon's blood, screenwriter interview links
In-Reply-To: <9aknq5+q2ad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9akr5n+7esd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16001

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Sorry, everyone, I wasnt quite clear.  The oven cleaner comment was 
> in a much earlier interview with the same guy.  ALthough, come to 
> think of it, it might not have been an interview so much as an 
> article about the movie which focused on this screenwriter guy.  I 
> know its out there somewhere, I just know it!  Really!

Salon article concerning Steven Kloves:
http://www.salon.com/ent/col/srag/2000/02/24/kloves/index.html

Mostly about his other movies. No mention of the dragon's blood issue 
at hand.

Google doesn't have anything on it, and the only two screenwriter 
interviews I can recall are the Salon and AICN pieces. Sorry.

Meril




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  6 16:39:21 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:39:21 -0000
Subject: Wizard Government (FBAWTFT spoiler)
In-Reply-To: <9aknh7+q26p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9akrfp+10k3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16002

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > I think Neville and Harry should band together and demand that 
> > Wizarding Youth Services provide them a decent home.
> 
> Amy raises an interesting point.  The wizard government is even 
worse 
> than the muggle government in many ways.  Completely lacking in 
> social services, 

I agree that the Ministry of Magic needs some serious reform, 
however, I did notice in FB that (pg. xiii) there is a Werewolf 
Support Services office at the Being Division.  Which is good because 
I'm sure that werewolves need some counseling, at the very least.  (I 
can imagine poor Lupin showing up, distraught, "I think I may have 
mauled a small child last night..").  Maybe they also refer them to 
more _understanding_ employers who give them those "special" days 
off.  Oh, and speaking of Lupin and FB, notice the footnote in the 
werewolf entry. Could Lupin have possibly written "Hairy Snout, Human 
Heart"?  The publication date is 1975 -- which means he would have 
had to have written it at Hogwarts OR that the Mauraders are a few 
years older than I thought. 
Stephanie 






From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Apr  6 18:12:05 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:12:05 -0700
Subject: Oven Cleaner
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEHBDGAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16003

I found the article that mentions using Dragon Blood for Oven Cleaner.  This
appears to be from Infoplease.com, but I don't have a specific URL.  My file
has the date of May 15, 2000.  If anyone wants the full article, just
holler...


                            A Setback for Harry Potter
                                 It's a Rough Road to Hollywood

                by Holly Hartman

<snip>....
                Scottish author J. K. Rowling is on hand to
                approve the script. "I'm more involved than I
                thought I would be," she says, though the visual
                side is left to the moviemakers. "I can't wait to
                see how they will pull off a quidditch game,"
                says Rowling. She chose Warner Brothers as a
                studio in part because they promised her the film
                would be live action rather than animation.

                In case you've been wondering, the movie script
                will reveal the twelve uses for dragon's blood
                (Rowling claims that use #12 is "oven cleaner").

<snip>....




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 18:26:15 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 18:26:15 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter in todays paper
Message-ID: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16004

Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, VA, 
in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  This 
idiot goes on about how although she likes the HP books, there are a 
lot of similarities between them and other books she has read, which 
"makes her think".  The similarities she points to are pretty vague.  
In a book called  "The Mystery of the Lost Village", there is a 
reporter named Rita Neville who follows the hero around and bothers 
him.  In another book, "Wizard's Hall" the main character called 
Henry goes to a wizards school and a magical object sort of like the 
sorting hat looks into his personality.

There are lots of books about kid witches and wizards and in some 
they go to school.  And there are lots of people named Rita and 
Neville and lots of books with annoying reporters in them.  For the 
Post to actually publish this stupid letter is ridiculous!  Anyway 
the URL is:

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46988-2001Apr5.html

Someone should write to the Post and complain about them giving voice 
to any old anti-HP fruitloop who crawls out of the woodwork.  I would 
do it myself, but I promised myself that I would not write letters to 
the editor about anything unless it directly concerned my 
professional field, as I run the danger of becoming one of those 
crazy, cackling old curmudgeons who do nothing but write letters to 
the editor all day long.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr  6 21:25:29 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:25:29 -0500
Subject: Reader's Digest Article JKR & HP's vulnerability
References: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007801c0bee0$1cb5c480$4214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16005

Has this group read and discussed the Reader's Digest article about JKR? I
forgot I had it, since I was not reading HP at the time I read the article.
There was an interesting bit in there about his eyeglasses and his
vulnerability. JKR was peeved at one of the book cover artists in some other
country, for drawing HP without his glasses. She said something like,
"Doesn't he realize that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability?"

Doreen




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr  6 21:30:25 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 21:30:25 -0000
Subject: Wizard Government was Re: Lousy guardians (was Wands and Magic)
In-Reply-To: <9aknh7+q26p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9alchi+3cd9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16006

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > I think Neville and Harry should band together and demand that 
> > Wizarding Youth Services provide them a decent home.
> 
> Amy raises an interesting point.  The wizard government is even 
worse 
> than the muggle government in many ways.  Completely lacking in 
> social services, even though they are clearly in desperate need of 
a 
> Child Services Agency.  Their educational system seems to consist 
of 
> exactly one secondary school per country -- no post-secondary 
> schooling, and as far as we can tell no primary schools either.  
>And how do they 
> support their huge bureaucracy, anyway?  They dont seem to have any 
> tax collectors.  
 
Why do we think they need a Child Services Agency?  For one thing, I 
think, though I am prepared to be corrected by her, that Amy was 
being slightly tongue in cheek re: Neville.  He has had the benefit 
of an upbringing in a family who obviously loved him, even if he 
exasperated him beyond endurance.

The reason Harry was sent to the Dursleys was, IMHO, not due to lack 
of anyone in the wizarding world wanting to look after him, but 
because Dumbledore didn't want him to grow up as a bigheaded little 
git, who'd had his head turned by fame at a very early age.  Whether 
this was the right thing to do is debatable, but Harry seems to me to 
be a remarkably sensitive, thoughtful, courageous and moral boy, and 
I don't think it has done him much harm in the long run.  Indeed, I 
think that it makes him appreciate the family, friends, money, whole 
life he has even more.  I admit, Tom Riddle may be another case, but 
again, he was being brought up in a Muggle orphanage, who were 
obviously broadminded enough (or at least someone there was) to 
appreciate where Tom was spending the school months of every year.

Also, how do we know there isn't a Child Services Agency, or tax 
collecting?  There is a huge amount JKR doesn't cover in her novels, 
and as she has said herself, if she included everything she had 
worked out, even PS would have been at least 10 times as long.  It is 
likely that there are primary schools, unless you think that children 
either a) learn to read and write by magic  or b)have one of their 
parents stay at home to teach them  or c) can all afford private 
tutors/governesses.  Also, JKR, doesn't say that Hogwarts is the only 
secondary school in England, only that it is one of the best in the 
world.  We know that the wizard population isn't huge - it is 
entirely possible that if Hogwarts is the only secondary school, it 
may be because it is the only school needed to cover the population 
adequately.

Their judicial system is horrendous -- people get life sentences in 
> jail without even a trial, defendents dont seem to get lawyers (on 
> the other hand the merits of a society without lawyers are 
obvious), 
> people get their souls sucked out of them as punishment for their 
> crimes by a simple order of the Minister, etc.  I think the 
Ministry of Magic is in desperate need 
> of reform.

I agree, that the judicial system is pretty rough.  However, another 
perspective is that the main period in issue here is when Voldemort 
was at the height of his power and the aftermath.  The whole 
wizarding community was suffering from paranoia, mistrust and 
hysteria, and it is not surprising that the Ministry reacted in a way 
which is akin to martial law (particularly the suspension of habeas 
corpus which has often, even in England, been suspended during times 
of emergency).
I agree that the way that the Ministry has behaved since has been 
deplorable.  See: Hagrid's incarceration in Azkaban, the trial of 
Buckbeak, Fudge taking the law into his own hands and allowing a 
dementor to administer the kiss to Barty Crouch.  And I agree that 
the Ministry is in desperate need of reform.  But I think this is 
largely due to weak men such as Fudge being manipulated by people 
such as the Malfoys and having a different perspective (emphasis on 
purebloods) and isn't how the Ministry is as a whole.  Look at the 
fact that people like Arthur Weasley work there.  I just wanted to 
make the point that just because JKR doesn't mention something, 
doesn't mean that we should take as gospel that it doesn't exist, and 
that issues aren't as black and white as they can seem.

By the way, I hope you didn't mean your comments about lawyers, as I 
am about to start my training contract in order to be one  myself!

Catherine





From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Apr  6 21:38:58 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 21:38:58 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter in todays paper
In-Reply-To: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ald1i+4orn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16007

Joywitch wrote:
> Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, VA, 
> in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  
> the URL is:
> 
> http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46988-2001Apr5.html

This letter is sooo lame. I wondered for a moment or two if it was 
supposed to be sarcastic; it's that pathetic.

Talk about tenuous parallels...

Didn't this woman read the letter over before mailing it, and 
realise? It defies belief. I can imagine that she had a point all 
worked out in her head and decided to put it into words, but, good 
lord. It's just dreadfully weak.

Dai





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Apr  6 21:49:53 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:49:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Government (FBAWTFT spoiler)
In-Reply-To: <9akrfp+10k3r@eGroups.com>
References: <9aknh7+q26p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406144320.037bb2b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16008

At 04:39 PM 4/6/01 +0000, Stephanie Roark Keener wrote:
>The publication date is 1975 -- which means he would have
>had to have written it at Hogwarts OR that the Mauraders are a few
>years older than I thought.

I think at this point that Potter-universe history from Moaning Myrtle's death
to Voldemort's (first) downfall is still pretty murky.  When I re-read what
Lupin says about his admission into Hogwarts, it really sounds (to me, anyway)
that Lupin was at least 11, and perhaps even an adult, when Dumbledore became
headmaster.  (Wizards seem to age slower than Muggles).  So I think Lupin
may have written _Heart_ *before* he went to Hogwarts, and was there
as an adult student when it was published.



                                                 -- Dave




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  6 21:55:31 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 21:55:31 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter in todays paper
In-Reply-To: <9ald1i+4orn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ale0j+luqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16009


Of course the obvious question is why aren't the writers named by the 
letter writer sueing JKR?

The answer is that like Neil Gaimen they very likely don't believe 
that the similarities are such a big deal. JKR is not the first writer 
to write about young wizards or to send them to school. Her style 
and the shape of her stories is verrrryyyy different from Jane 
Yolen's.

I happen to know Jane Yolen. I studied with her at Smith. She is a 
very cool lady who has herself borrowed heavily from fairy tales and 
mythology and took much inspiration from other fine writers. John 
Crowley's book "Little Big" in particular had a huge effect on her, 
and a number of her stories show his inspiration, and yes, even rip 
off details (which Crowley himself ripped off from Tolkien). 
The works are completely different. Crowley and Yolen are neighbors 
and play poker regularly. It's not a problem because Jane has her 
vision and it is all hers, and nobody but nobody is another John 
Crowley.

A true writer with a great story to tell about another witch or wizard 
is not going to feel threatened by JKR-- more likely he or she will 
feel inspired, charged up, and encouraged and be happy for her 
success. They are also goingnto realize that our fascination with 
witches and wizards and coming of age are literally as old as the 
hills.

*Shrug* That's my take.  I don't think this letter really supports 
Stouffer. It is however naive and shows little understanding of 
creativity. I also wonder if she has actually read jane Yolen. The 
work cited really is nothing like Harry Potter. I suspect she is 
repeating stories she has heard elsewhere.

--Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at s...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> > Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, 
VA, 
> > in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  
> > the URL is:
> > 
> > http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46988-2001Apr5.html
> 
> This letter is sooo lame. I wondered for a moment or two if it was 
> supposed to be sarcastic; it's that pathetic.
> 
> Talk about tenuous parallels...
> 
> Didn't this woman read the letter over before mailing it, and 
> realise? It defies belief. I can imagine that she had a point all 
> worked out in her head and decided to put it into words, but, good 
> lord. It's just dreadfully weak.
> 
> Dai




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Apr  6 21:55:12 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:55:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reader's Digest Article JKR & HP's vulnerability
In-Reply-To: <007801c0bee0$1cb5c480$4214a3d1@doreen>
References: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406145117.037c9a70@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16010

At 04:25 PM 4/6/01 -0500, Doreen wrote:
>Has this group read and discussed the Reader's Digest article about JKR? I
>forgot I had it, since I was not reading HP at the time I read the article.
>There was an interesting bit in there about his eyeglasses and his
>vulnerability. JKR was peeved at one of the book cover artists in some other
>country, for drawing HP without his glasses. She said something like,
>"Doesn't he realize that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability?"

Well, I've already commented on my theory that Salazaar Slytherin cursed
all decendants of Goderic Gryiffindor so that they need glasses, and that
the curse will break when Harry vanquishes V (after which he will no longer
need glasses!).  But this is all wild speculation on my part... I do think 
Harry's
glasses are significant, however.  (Note too that most of the spectacle-wearing
people whose house we know -- Harry, James, Percy, McGonnegal -- are all
Gryffindors.)



                                                 -- Dave




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  6 22:08:33 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:08:33 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
Message-ID: <9alep1+btsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16011

I posted this before, but it didn't get a response, so... repost. With 
a few points added.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but has anyone ever thought that 
maybe Crookshanks is a Kneazle? I don't think Crookshanks is Mrs. 
Figg... I was under the impression that Animagi transformed into 
animals of the same sex, but... JKR indicates that Kneazles can 
crossbreed with cats, so maybe the fact that he doesn't have markings 
is due to the fact that his family line has been crossed so much with 
normal cats. That may also explain why he wasn't wanted, and why he 
stayed so long in the pet shop- maybe pure-bred Kneazles are much more 
desirable than those whose blood has been so diluted that they appear 
to resemble cats more than Kneazles.

Kneazles are also said to have the ability to sense unsavoury or 
suspicious characters... Crookshanks certainly didn't likePettigrew. 
(This also features in my Draco's-not-evil-argument- Draco has 
encountered Crookshanks before, and if Crookshanks was a Kneazle, he 
would have hissed at Draco if Draco was truly evil. So there.)
Kneazles are also extremely intelligent and loyal- Crookshanks could 
communicate with Sirius and understand what Sirius wanted, and when 
Sirius was threatened, Crookshanks protected Sirius with his body. 
"Occasionally aggressive" also fits Crookshanks quite well- he doesn't 
hesitate to sink his claws into Harry when the need arises.

Kneazles have tails like a lion's... is this what a bottlebrush tail 
would look like? Or perhaps the bottlebrush is the result of breeding 
with cats. The fact that owners of Kneazles must get licenses was 
never mentioned by Hermione... maybe Crookshanks looked enough like a 
normal cat that they didn't need one?

- Celeste Chang






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  6 22:16:47 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:16:47 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter
Message-ID: <9alf8f+c2dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16012

In a similar vein, let me report that there was a front page story in 
the New York Times (www.nytimes.com) this past week about the
Stouffer lawsuit, and similar allegations of plagiarism by 
opportunists.  The newspaper didn't seem to think that there was much 
merit to the Stouffer lawsuit.

Haggridd




From mage at wizardearth.com  Fri Apr  6 22:42:24 2001
From: mage at wizardearth.com (mage at wizardearth.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:42:24 -0000
Subject: Contribution to Jamie Potter and the Ghost...
In-Reply-To: <9alf8f+c2dk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9algog+skdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16013

Dear Group,
First, many apologies for this post if its content is found 
inappropriate. 

Second, I'm anxious to find beta testers to break the following site:
http://www.pottersequel.com/

I'm not quite done with its construction but would like to gather 
opinions on it's overall functionality and potential prior to 
completion.

LLHP
(long live harry potter)

m a g e @ w i z a r d e a r t h . c o m 










From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri Apr  6 22:48:00 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:48:00 -0000
Subject: "Li'l Miss Cellophane" (filk)
Message-ID: <9alh30+l5c3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16014

"Li'l Miss Cellophane"
["Mister Cellophane" from CHICAGO]

Respectfully dedicated to Caius


[Enter Ginny Weasley, solo.]

GINNY
If some young witch at dinnertime
Stood up and swore in perfect rhyme
And waved her wand and threw a fit
You'd notice her

If someone in the midnight gloom 
Yelled, "FIRE in the common room!"
And even screamed a little bit
You'd notice her

And even without clucking like a hen
Everyone gets noticed now and then
Unless, of course, that personage should be
Invisible, inconsequential me...

Cellophane 
Li'l Miss Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Ginny Cellophane
'Cos you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there!

Suppose you were a gang of boys
Who'd tease their sister for their joys
And use her for their greatest jokes
You'd notice her

Suppose you shared a Hogwarts House
With one who, quiet as a mouse,
Spoke up for you against the blokes--
You'd notice her

You'd think with all the catastrophic fare
We'd see more than a Weasley with red hair
Unless that red-haired Weasley next to you
Is unimpressive, undistinguished You-Know-Who...

[spoken](And no, I don't mean Voldemort!)

...Shoulda been my name
Ginny Cellophane
'Cos you can look right through me 
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there
I--tell--ya--
Cellophane
Li'l Miss Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Ginny--Cellophane
'Cos you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there
Never even know I'm there...!


[Shakes her fist at JKR impatiently and walks offstage]



--Lisa




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr  7 02:46:38 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 02:46:38 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
In-Reply-To: <9alep1+btsu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9alv2e+qcm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16015

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Celeste Chang" <celeste_827 at y...> wrote:
> I posted this before, but it didn't get a response, so... repost. 
With 
> a few points added.

Really? I recall seeing quite a few responses. 

> 
> Sorry if this has been asked before, but has anyone ever thought 
that 
> maybe Crookshanks is a Kneazle? I don't think Crookshanks is Mrs. 
> Figg... I was under the impression that Animagi transformed into 
> animals of the same sex, but... JKR indicates that Kneazles can 
> crossbreed with cats, so maybe the fact that he doesn't have 
markings 
> is due to the fact that his family line has been crossed so much 
with 
> normal cats. That may also explain why he wasn't wanted, and why he 
> stayed so long in the pet shop- maybe pure-bred Kneazles are much 
more 
> desirable than those whose blood has been so diluted that they 
appear 
> to resemble cats more than Kneazles.

Very good thought.
That and the fact that he seems to be vaguely ill-tempered around 
everyone except Hermione herself.

> 
> Kneazles are also said to have the ability to sense unsavoury or 
> suspicious characters... Crookshanks certainly didn't likePettigrew. 

Right, but that was when Pettigrew was believed to be nothing but 
Scabbers the rat.  

However, Kneazlehood would indicate Crookshanks could tell beyond the 
facade du mouse. 

> (This also features in my Draco's-not-evil-argument- Draco has 
> encountered Crookshanks before, and if Crookshanks was a Kneazle, he 
> would have hissed at Draco if Draco was truly evil. So there.)

Not necessarily.  

It says unsavory or untrustworthy in the description.  The sneakoscope 
fired off around Fred and George, who are good boys, but were doing 
something nasty to Bill.

By the flipside, Draco could be decent  from time to time, and well, 
to be honest -- Harry, Hermione and Ron pretty much *knew* they 
couldn't trust Draco any farther than anyone (save Hagrid maybe) could 
throw him.  Crookshanks didn't really need to warn them. Plus, Draco 
was, on a scale with the other problems of the Harry Triad, too small 
to matter.

> Kneazles are also extremely intelligent and loyal- Crookshanks could 
> communicate with Sirius and understand what Sirius wanted, and when 
> Sirius was threatened, Crookshanks protected Sirius with his body. 

This is true. 
Crookshanks also knows where the knot to stop the Whomping Willow is.

> "Occasionally aggressive" also fits Crookshanks quite well- he 
doesn't 
> hesitate to sink his claws into Harry when the need arises.

Heh. Or anyone else.
> 
> Kneazles have tails like a lion's... is this what a bottlebrush tail 
> would look like? Or perhaps the bottlebrush is the result of 
breeding 
> with cats. The fact that owners of Kneazles must get licenses was 
> never mentioned by Hermione... maybe Crookshanks looked enough like 
a normal cat that they didn't need one?

Or she doesn't know. Which seems unusual. 

Or she doesn't want to give Crookshanks' origins away because it's a 
useful secret. 

Or, finally, Crookshanks is some other animagus we have not yet been 
introduced to. 


Indigo
[who has gained a whole new respect for Crookshanks since joining 
HP4GU]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Apr  7 03:11:09 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 03:11:09 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter in todays paper
In-Reply-To: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9am0gd+sium@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16016

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, VA, 
> in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  
This 
> idiot goes on about how although she likes the HP books, there are 
a 
> lot of similarities between them and other books she has read, 
which 
> "makes her think

Dear Edotor

I was reading your articuls about this woman which wrote the Hairy 
Poterr books which said that she stoll her ideas from stuff that 
other people had writ about before so I red one of them books and it 
looks to me like there is a lot of other stuff she stoll too like how 
she was having  witches flying on brumesticks and wizards with magic 
wands and they brew up magic potions in cauldrons  and none of that 
is originull cause their are lots of other books about witches doing 
the same thing so all those things are stolen also she has a dragon 
breathing fire and that's not originull either did you ever see that 
movie Dragonslayer than you know what I mean then she has elfs 
centarrs wearwolfs poultrygeists and other stuff like weer supposed 
to think this is originull give me a break anybody could write a book 
like that if they just took it all from sumplais else and the 
language too that she writes in is English and they are lots of other 
books written in the same langauge which means that hardly any words 
in the book are originull except maybe Quidditch and dementor and 
floo powder but how do we know she dint steel them to?

A conserned reeder





From andeinmn at aol.com  Sat Apr  7 03:15:23 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:15:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
Message-ID: <13.13e865f8.27ffe04b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16017

In a message dated 4/6/01 9:47:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
indigo at indigosky.net writes:

> > (This also features in my Draco's-not-evil-argument- Draco has 
>  > encountered Crookshanks before, and if Crookshanks was a Kneazle, he 
>  > would have hissed at Draco if Draco was truly evil. So there.)
>  
>  Not necessarily.  
>  
>  It says unsavory or untrustworthy in the description.  The sneakoscope 
>  fired off around Fred and George, who are good boys, but were doing 
>  something nasty to Bill.
>  

Actually, I have a different take on the sneakoscope incident.  It was 
assumed that Fred and George set it off, but that was before anyone knew what 
was lurking in Ron's pocket!

Andrea



From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 03:31:24 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 20:31:24 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: idiotic letter in todays paper
References: <9am0gd+sium@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005301c0bf13$4039fd80$b310eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 16018

Hello,

> [snip excellent satirical letter]

Bravo!

little Alex




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 04:44:40 2001
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 01:44:40 -0300
Subject: The future for Dumbledore
Message-ID: <F112YhAOylhgnFZS4HI0000096e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16019

I had a very interesting thought about foreshodowing, In The Goblet of Fire, 
toward the end Harry is talking to Hagrid and Hagrid says That as long as we 
have Dumbledore everything will be fine. That is not a direct quote as I am 
tired and lazy and don't want to find the book at this time.  I am just 
wondering if anyone else thought that this was a bit foretelling. In my 
opinion Dumbledore will die in the sixth book and Harry will have to defeat 
Voldermort without him, or as I like to call it Pulling an Obi-wan-kan-obi, 
from Star Wars.
Sincerely
Heidi. H.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Apr  7 05:04:58 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 05:04:58 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch - Ron Weasley Part I - friendship and destiny
In-Reply-To: <9ai458+e28i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9am75q+nntj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16020

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> > Ron Weasley.
> >  
> >  
> > Ron and Harry are both afraid of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. For?? 
> the first of 
> > many times, they support each other, are brave, confront an enemy 
> and 
> > prevail. They share their firstvictory. They share food. They 
share 
> their 
> > fears about Hogwarts. 
> 
> I agree with most of what you say, apart from this part about Harry 
> and Ron being scared of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.  I don't think 
they 
> are afraid.  I think that they despise and dislike (even hate - I 
am 
> sure there has been burning hatred between Harry and Draco) them, 
and 
> are perhaps a little intimidated by the rather obvious gorilla 
like, 
> brute strength of the sidekicks, but not afraid.  In fact, I would 
go 
> as far as to say that they look down on Crabbe and Goyle, as they 
> make fun of their lack of intellect and general stupidity.  
> 
> I think one of the greatest comic scenes in the books is when Harry 
> and Ron take the Polyjuice potion and transform into C and G.  
> Listening to Stephen Fry talking as H and R, but trying to sound 
> gruff and clueless like C and G is a sound for sore ears!
> 
> Catherine




"Oh, you're going to fight us, are you?" Malfoy sneered
"Unless you get out now," said Harry, more bravely than he felt 
because Crabbe and Goyle were a lot biger than him or Ron.




From williamhause2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 05:18:54 2001
From: williamhause2000 at yahoo.com (williamhause2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 05:18:54 -0000
Subject: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <F112YhAOylhgnFZS4HI0000096e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9am7vu+879n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16021

When I read the part you refer to, my immediate thought was that 
Dumbledore was going to die soon.  I think in Book 5.  Also Harry 
notices how very old Dumbledore is and that to makes me think he will 
be gone soon.  Who will replace him as Head Master?  Snape?

-Billy

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Heidi Henshaw" <hermione_heidi at h...> 
wrote:
> I had a very interesting thought about foreshodowing, In The Goblet 
of Fire, 
> toward the end Harry is talking to Hagrid and Hagrid says That as 
long as we 
> have Dumbledore everything will be fine. That is not a direct quote 
as I am 
> tired and lazy and don't want to find the book at this time.  I am 
just 
> wondering if anyone else thought that this was a bit foretelling. 
In my 
> opinion Dumbledore will die in the sixth book and Harry will have 
to defeat 
> Voldermort without him, or as I like to call it Pulling an Obi-wan-
kan-obi, 
> from Star Wars.
> Sincerely
> Heidi. H.
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 05:42:45 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 05:42:45 -0000
Subject: Foreshadowing (was Re: The Future for Dumbledore}
Message-ID: <9am9cl+3mam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16022

Heidi Henshaw speculated as to whether a remark in the canon to the
effect that they couldn't do without Dumbledore foreshadowed his
demise in a future book, and she further predicted that Harry would
then triumph on his own.  Heidi's remark prompted me to recollect
other such instances in the canon:  Fred & George saying that Percy
was very ambitious, and might betray his brothers;  Krum's invitation
to Hermione to visit him; Fleur Delacouer's seeking a job at Hogwarts;
Dumbledore's look of something very like triumph at hearing the news
that Harry's blood was uses to resurrect Voldemort; Mrs. Figg and her
cats; the remarkable intelligence of Crookshanks; Sibyl Trelawney's
first authentic prediction; etc.

We know that JKR had plotted the entire seven books prior to writing
PS/SS, at least to some extent.  Some of the above have been confirmed
by JKR's own words, e.g., Arabella Figg's being the babysitter, Mrs.
Figg.  We do not know which of the others are foreshadowings that have
been already plotted by JKR, and which have been placed in the canon
as "targets of opportunity" to allow her some latitude in future
books, should she so desire.  As HP fanatics, we delight in
speculating about what might happen.  I wonder, has anyone compiled
the occurences of such possible foreshadowings?  It would be
interesting-- to me at least-- to find out what JKR's batting average
ultimately will be in folllowing up on these in the later books.

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 09:19:56 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 09:19:56 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
In-Reply-To: <13.13e865f8.27ffe04b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9amm3s+brv1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16023

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:

> Actually, I have a different take on the sneakoscope incident.  It 
was 
> assumed that Fred and George set it off, but that was before anyone 
knew what 
> was lurking in Ron's pocket!
> 
> Andrea


Yes, I was under the impression that the sneakoscope never shut up, 
which was why Harry had to muffle it in socks, and how every time it 
surfaced it went off again.  I assumed (with hindsight) that this was 
because Scabbers was there the whole time and was untrustworthy.

Catherine





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 09:23:40 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 09:23:40 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch - Ron Weasley Part I - friendship and destiny
In-Reply-To: <9am75q+nntj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ammas+bs3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16024

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> > > Ron Weasley.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Ron and Harry are both afraid of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. 
For?? 
> > the first of 
> > > many times, they support each other, are brave, confront an 
enemy 
> > and 
> > > prevail. They share their firstvictory. They share food. They 
> share 
> > their 
> > > fears about Hogwarts. 
> > 
> > I agree with most of what you say, apart from this part about 
Harry 
> > and Ron being scared of Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle.  I don't think 
> they 
> > are afraid.  I think that they despise and dislike (even hate - I 
> am 
> > sure there has been burning hatred between Harry and Draco) them, 
> and 
> > are perhaps a little intimidated by the rather obvious gorilla 
> like, 
> > brute strength of the sidekicks, but not afraid.  In fact, I 
would 
> go 
> > as far as to say that they look down on Crabbe and Goyle, as they 
> > make fun of their lack of intellect and general stupidity.  
> > 
> > I think one of the greatest comic scenes in the books is when 
Harry 
> > and Ron take the Polyjuice potion and transform into C and G.  
> > Listening to Stephen Fry talking as H and R, but trying to sound 
> > gruff and clueless like C and G is a sound for sore ears!
> > 
> > Catherine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Oh, you're going to fight us, are you?" Malfoy sneered
> "Unless you get out now," said Harry, more bravely than he felt 
> because Crabbe and Goyle were a lot biger than him or Ron.

Yes, I saw that quote too, but I still think they are more 
intimidated than scared.  I think scared and afraid are  too strong.
Catherine




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sat Apr  7 10:02:59 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 10:02:59 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
Message-ID: <9amokj+gnod@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16025


 I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little hints 
Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold 
together with strings that he has knotted Neatly, and he puts the 
empty chocolate wrapper in his pocket instead of just dropping it on 
the floor. He sure would be easy to live around...or with. 

/Jennifer *neve mind*




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sat Apr  7 10:28:48 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 10:28:48 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
In-Reply-To: <9amm3s+brv1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9amq50+fdag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16026

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:
> 
> > Actually, I have a different take on the sneakoscope incident.  It 
> was 
> > assumed that Fred and George set it off, but that was before 
anyone 
> knew what 
> > was lurking in Ron's pocket!
> > 
> > Andrea
> 
> 
> Yes, I was under the impression that the sneakoscope never shut up, 
> which was why Harry had to muffle it in socks, and how every time it 
> surfaced it went off again.  I assumed (with hindsight) that this 
was 
> because Scabbers was there the whole time and was untrustworthy.
> 
> Catherine

I agree. Another proof is: When Harry got the sneakoscope at the 
Dursley's it wasn't making any noise at all!!! Or Harry would have 
been in serious trouble

Mecki




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 11:49:02 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 04:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <F112YhAOylhgnFZS4HI0000096e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010407114902.59194.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16027

>Hagrid says That as long as we have Dumbledore everything will be 
> fine.  I am just wondering if anyone else thought that this was a 
> bit foretelling. In my opinion Dumbledore will die in the sixth 
> book and Harry will have to defeat Voldermort without him, or as I 
> like to call it Pulling an Obi-wan-kan-obi, from Star Wars.

Actually, wouldn't it be more likely that that's precisely the reason
it won't happen, at least not just like that?  

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 11:51:48 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 04:51:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <9amokj+gnod@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010407115148.54545.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16028

>  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little hints
> Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold 
> together with strings that he has knotted Neatly...

Thanks for reminding me.  I have a question:

How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a good
piece of luggage? 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr  7 12:13:51 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:13:51 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <20010407115148.54545.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9an09v+ljrl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16029

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little 
hints
> > Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold 
> > together with strings that he has knotted Neatly...
> 
> How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a good
> piece of luggage? 

He doesn?t have decent stuff because he?s so poor - he must have had 
real trouble getting a job because nobody wants to employ a werewolf.

And I think you can?t just magic yourself rich.

Remember the Weasley family -  I?m sure if they could just magic 
things up, they wouldn?t let their kids go to school in second hand 
robes and with second hand books. 

If you could, there?d be no need for Gringotts and the shops in Diagon 
alley and the books would only be half the fun... which tends to be a 
general reason for a lot of unexplainable things in the books...

Maybe things you conjure up out of thin air don?t last as long as real 
things, or they?ll just disappear after a while (like leprechaun 
gold). 

About Lupin?s character - yes, he seems to be a very orderly man. I 
think it fits very well with his way of treating other people, the way 
he talks, his sense of humour - there is nothing spectacular in it, 
but it?s still very thoughtful and deep. Lupin is certainly one of the 
"well-organised minds" Dumbledore speaks about in that wonderful scene 
at the and of HPPS.




From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  5 23:20:13 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 18:20:13 -0500
Subject: Possibility of a new potion by Snape and Dumbledore?!?!
References: <9agkhg+bh3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE57FutJLtosJ3Ih7jt0000018c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16030

Hey (the original stuff is at the bottom!!!!),

The anatomy lesson is interesting, but probably won't happen, because it would be kind of hard to explain the molucular structure of blood cells to the "younger readers" of the HP books.  It would be awesome in the Scientific version of HP.  :-)

As for the the question of developing a potion, it's very probale and an awesome theory.  The potion couldn't just outright kill Voldy because that would demote Harry as "Main Character/Archetype."  It would probably make Voldemort loose all of his power thus making him easy to put in jail(Harry is not "allowed" to kill Voldy in cold blood. It's a Hero rule).  

To the 12 uses of Dragon's Blood,  unless it is one of the main ingredients of a very important potion or has magic healing powers (such as Fawks's tears), then we probably won't learn of all of the uses. 

Note: I am at two disadvantages, I never saw the original thread and I'm a newbie!  Please be kind! Thanx! 
Note 2: I edited the original stuff so if it doesn't look like what you've already seen, that's why!
~ Adrienne~
*************************************************************************************************
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
~William James~
*************************************************************************************************

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dasienko at email.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:16 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
  Background evidence:
  Severus Snape, Potions Master and ex-Death Eater, which gives him much knowledge of Voldemort and his strengths, as well as his weaknesses. And, Albus Dumbeldore, "widely considered to be the greatest wizard of the current age, famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood(and btw: what *are* the twelve uses of dragon's blood? Is this something that we will find out in 5,6, &7?) and for his work on alchemy with his friend Nicolas 
  Flamel."

  IMO Between the alchemy and the potions knowledge, could it be possible that the two of them come up with a potion that is not temporary, like the polyjuice potion is? 

  *********************************************************************

  I'm sort of a newbie here, and I'd like to add my two Knuts to this discussion about Snape coming up with a potion. 

  Voldemort already has a very potent "potion" coursing through his veins-- Harry Potter's blood. This could lead to ( excuse the magical anatomy lesson) the White(Harry/good/Ethical) corpusules attacking the black(Voldemort/evil) corpusules. This would lead to a 
  battle on the celluar level in Voldemort's body. If this is too clinical Muggle. Snape could use the fact that Harry's blood is in Voldemort to devise a potion that would some how destroy Voldemort by 
  replacing the dark magic with the good stuff. 





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From clugo at ukonline.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 12:19:53 2001
From: clugo at ukonline.co.uk (clugo at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:19:53 -0000
Subject: A Dark Mark thought
In-Reply-To: <3ACDB10D.66FD9C4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9an0l9+n1rm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16031

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I just had the rather grim thought that there might be a bit more 
to the Dark Mark on the Death Eaters than we've heard....<snip> ... 
the Dark Mark also will kill its wearers when Voldemort dies. Snape 
is being asked to systematically, directly, purposefully work toward 
his own death...... <snip> It seems very Voldemort-ish that the Mark 
would be conditional like that--a Death Eater must tie his destiny to 
his master so completely.>

The first time I read the part of GoF where Dumbledore asked if Snape 
was ready etc., I thought he might be going to remove the Dark Mark.  
What this idea would have going for it is:
a) it might be dangerous and unpleasant if it involved severing a 
mental link with Voldemort. 
b)it could be accomplished quickly so he could be at the feast. 
c) Dumbledore might mean 'have you got the sulphuric acid ready' when 
he says are you prepared.

But what it hasn't got going for it is, I can't think of anything 
dramatic that it could accomplish - weaken Voldemorte maybe or 
remove Snape from Voldemort sphere of influence - bit lame all round 
really.  But I do have the feeling that the Dark Mark does more than 
just signal to the Death Eaters and the thought that it ties the 
Death Eaters " destiny to his master" is very plausible.

Chris




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr  7 12:25:49 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:25:49 -0000
Subject: Reader's Digest Article JKR & HP's vulnerability
In-Reply-To: <007801c0bee0$1cb5c480$4214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9an10d+4e5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16032

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> There was an interesting bit in there about his eyeglasses and his
> vulnerability. JKR was peeved at one of the book cover artists in 
some other
> country, for drawing HP without his glasses. She said something 
like,
> "Doesn't he realize that Harry's glasses are the key to his 
vulnerability?"
> 


I dearly love JKR for making her hero wear glasses. 

I?m shortsighted too and I hated it when I was at school because 
the other kids would laugh at me. 

I think I?ve long got over it. But I?m very happy to hear from parents 
that kids nowadays don?t mind having to wear glasses at school as long 
as the parents buy them black round ones just like Harry?s ... it 
seems to have become sort of cool!

And that?s only one aspect why kids identify with Harry. I heard 
someone complain once that Harry is really boring because he "knows 
everything, can do everything and never fails". How wrong! Harry 
really IS vulnerable, and that makes kids identify with him. I think 
JKR is doing a very good job there.






From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 12:28:50 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:28:50 -0000
Subject: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <20010407114902.59194.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9an162+olel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16033

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >Hagrid says That as long as we have Dumbledore everything will be 
> > fine.  I am just wondering if anyone else thought that this was a 
> > bit foretelling. In my opinion Dumbledore will die in the sixth 
> > book and Harry will have to defeat Voldermort without him, or as 
I 
> > like to call it Pulling an Obi-wan-kan-obi, from Star Wars.
> 
> Actually, wouldn't it be more likely that that's precisely the 
reason
> it won't happen, at least not just like that?  

Similar to the answer to why Snape is not going to return to V you 
mean? If Harry points something out it won't happen? Only this time 
it was pointed out *to* Harry not *by* him, could there be a 
difference? I think this is highly likely to be one of those things 
everyone disagrees on and we will only find out by reading the books, 
but I dread to think how long we'll have to wait for an answer! IMHO, 
Dumbledore will not last the series but I don't know that Snape will 
succeed him, especially not if the governors have anything to say 
about it. I doubt they'd want a Slytherin headmaster. However in the 
grand scheme of things, who knows? Maybe Snape will have redeemed 
himself by then. Or died, the two may be linked (though I sincerely 
hope not!)

Sarah
desperately hoping that if Snape has to die it will be later rather 
than sooner.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr  7 12:40:18 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:40:18 -0000
Subject: Wizard Government was Re: Lousy guardians (was Wands and Magic)
In-Reply-To: <9alchi+3cd9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9an1ri+76c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16034

> > Amy raises an interesting point.  The wizard government is even 
> worse > > than the muggle government in many ways.  
> Their judicial system is horrendous -- people get life sentences in 
> > jail without even a trial, defendents dont seem to get lawyers (on 
> > the other hand the merits of a society without lawyers are 
> obvious), 
> > people get their souls sucked out of them as punishment for their 
> > crimes by a simple order of the Minister, etc.  I think the 
> Ministry of Magic is in desperate need 
> > of reform.
> 
-------------------------------
> I agree, that the judicial system is pretty rough.  However, another 
> perspective is that the main period in issue here is when Voldemort 
> was at the height of his power and the aftermath.  The whole 
> wizarding community was suffering from paranoia, mistrust and 
> hysteria, and it is not surprising that the Ministry reacted in a 
way 
> which is akin to martial law .

---------------

Yes, these Pensieve trials made my hair stand on end! Given the 
unusual martial law situation, they don?t even seem to acknowledge the 
basic rules of a fair trial (defenders, appeals etc.).

I was quite shocked at how calmly Dumbledore takes all this. Moody is 
a law-and-order sheriff, all right, but Dumbledore is the one who 
gives people second chances, so why didn?t he speak up in the name of 
justice? 

On other occasions, he says that the prison system with the Dementors 
doesn?t agree with him at all. Dumbledore knows Fudge is weak and easy 
to influence, so why doesn?t he make use of that?

--------------------
> By the way, I hope you didn't mean your comments about lawyers, as I 
> am about to start my training contract in order to be one  myself!
> 
> Catherine

Thanks Catherine for speaking up in the name of all (would-be) 
lawyers! I?m training to be one too, so do you think we should head 
the Commission For The Reform Of Magic Judicial Systems at the 
ministry?

Lea




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr  7 14:00:56 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:00:56 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking or Why does Snape hate Harry?
Message-ID: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16035

I?ve just gone through the February Snape character thread, and it?s 
awfully good. 

But the question WHY Snape hates Harry so much (or, possibly, hated 
him so much until the end of GoF) has not really been sufficiently 
answered, I think.

The answer, obviously, seems to be: Snape hated James so he hates 
James? son, too. But shouldn?t Snape, of all people, know that people 
deserve second chances, all the more if the fault was not theirs, but 
their fathers??

Even if we accept that Snape is unable do make a difference between 
Potter senior and Potter junior, it all goes back to the question why 
Snape hated James and what is therefore hateable in Harry, too.

I DO support the Snape-loved-Lily-theory, and being faced day by day 
with the son you might have had if your rival hadn?t won the contest 
should be enough to drive any man mad.

But I?d like to point out another aspect in the 
Snape-James-relationship that will make sense even without Lily. It?s 
about authority and rule-breaking.

I missed that aspect in the character sketch.

Snape is a man who is obsessed with authority. 
It?s what keeps him sane and what keeps him going. It?s where he gets 
his self-esteem from. It?s what provides him his place in the world. 

I also think that was what impressed him about Voldemort and what made 
him join the DE. Their inner organisation is based on hierarchy, on 
orders and obedience, and for someone looking for respect and 
recognition at all costs, that sort of system is very inviting (just a 
side thought - that?s exactly why I think Percy Weasley will go over 
to the dark side, too).

I think it is a very important part of his character that he needs 
this set of well-defined rules to keep him going. He?s a typical 
example of a person who will always carry things to extremes, be it 
the good cause or the evil cause, because only extreme convictions and 
extreme actions will comply with the principles they have set for 
themselves.

You can still see it with Snape as a teacher. He keeps his classes 
under control by order and obedience, too, and the worst thing that 
could happen to him is students undermining his authority. Think of 
his reaction in and after the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. What a 
humiliation that must have been.

Snape wants his students to accept his authority over them as much as 
he is ready to accept that of his superiors over him. Right, he does 
criticise Dumbledore if he thinks he is too lenient, but always in 
quite a polite way. He insists on adressing him very formally at all 
times, never speaks ill of Dumbledore behind his back, and always 
accepts his decisions in the end. 


James, on the other hand, got all the respect and recognition he could 
ask for, from his fellow students as well as his teachers, but he was 
a rule-breaker and trouble-maker all the same. He just always got away 
with it. I think that put Snape?s sense of justice to a hard test. It 
just didn?t fit with his view of the world that you could break every 
rule within your reach to pieces and still become a celebrated Head 
boy and Quidditch hero and get the most attractive girl in the year. 
He wasn?t only evious or jealous of James. James, with his actions 
and his successes, upset Snape?s whole world.

And Harry does just the same.





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 14:26:28 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:26:28 -0000
Subject: Wizard Government was Re: Lousy guardians (was Wands and Magic)
In-Reply-To: <9an1ri+76c6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9an82k+6hnk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16036

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> > By the way, I hope you didn't mean your comments about lawyers, 
as I 
> > am about to start my training contract in order to be one  myself!
> > 
> > Catherine
> 
> Thanks Catherine for speaking up in the name of all (would-be) 
> lawyers! I?m training to be one too, so do you think we should head 
> the Commission For The Reform Of Magic Judicial Systems at the 
> ministry?
> 
> Lea

Why not <g>.  I've plenty of suggeestions...!
Catherine




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 14:39:45 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:39:45 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking or Why does Snape hate Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9an8rh+fd20@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16037

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> I?ve just gone through the February Snape character thread, and it?s 
> awfully good. 
> 
> But the question WHY Snape hates Harry so much (or, possibly, hated 
> him so much until the end of GoF) has not really been sufficiently 
> answered, I think.
> 
> The answer, obviously, seems to be: Snape hated James so he hates 
> James? son, too. But shouldn?t Snape, of all people, know that 
people 
> deserve second chances, all the more if the fault was not theirs, 
but 
> their fathers??
> 
> Even if we accept that Snape is unable do make a difference between 
> Potter senior and Potter junior, it all goes back to the question 
why 
> Snape hated James and what is therefore hateable in Harry, too.
> 
> I DO support the Snape-loved-Lily-theory, and being faced day by day 
> with the son you might have had if your rival hadn?t won the contest 
> should be enough to drive any man mad.
> 
> But I?d like to point out another aspect in the 
> Snape-James-relationship that will make sense even without Lily. 
It?s 
> about authority and rule-breaking.
> 
> I missed that aspect in the character sketch.
> 
> Snape is a man who is obsessed with authority. 
> It?s what keeps him sane and what keeps him going. It?s where he 
gets 
> his self-esteem from. It?s what provides him his place in the world. 
> 
> I also think that was what impressed him about Voldemort and what 
made 
> him join the DE. Their inner organisation is based on hierarchy, on 
> orders and obedience, and for someone looking for respect and 
> recognition at all costs, that sort of system is very inviting (just 
a 
> side thought - that?s exactly why I think Percy Weasley will go over 
> to the dark side, too).
> 
> I think it is a very important part of his character that he needs 
> this set of well-defined rules to keep him going. He?s a typical 
> example of a person who will always carry things to extremes, be it 
> the good cause or the evil cause, because only extreme convictions 
and 
> extreme actions will comply with the principles they have set for 
> themselves.
> 
> You can still see it with Snape as a teacher. He keeps his classes 
> under control by order and obedience, too, and the worst thing that 
> could happen to him is students undermining his authority. Think of 
> his reaction in and after the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. What a 
> humiliation that must have been.
> 
> Snape wants his students to accept his authority over them as much 
as 
> he is ready to accept that of his superiors over him. Right, he does 
> criticise Dumbledore if he thinks he is too lenient, but always in 
> quite a polite way. He insists on adressing him very formally at all 
> times, never speaks ill of Dumbledore behind his back, and always 
> accepts his decisions in the end. 
> 
> 
> James, on the other hand, got all the respect and recognition he 
could 
> ask for, from his fellow students as well as his teachers, but he 
was 
> a rule-breaker and trouble-maker all the same. He just always got 
away 
> with it. I think that put Snape?s sense of justice to a hard test. 
It 
> just didn?t fit with his view of the world that you could break 
every 
> rule within your reach to pieces and still become a celebrated Head 
> boy and Quidditch hero and get the most attractive girl in the year. 
> He wasn?t only evious or jealous of James. James, with his actions 
> and his successes, upset Snape?s whole world.
> 
> And Harry does just the same.


I find this explanation more compelling than any putative unrequited 
love of Lily Evans by Snape-- although the authors of myriad fanfics 
may feel differently. Paranthetically, I agree that Percy will, at 
least temporarily, work for the dark side, if only as a dupe.

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr  7 14:40:27 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:40:27 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking or Why does Snape hate Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9an8sr+coc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16038

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> Snape is a man who is obsessed with authority. 
> I think it is a very important part of his character that he needs 
> this set of well-defined rules to keep him going. He?s a typical 
> example of a person who will always carry things to extremes, be it 
> the good cause or the evil cause, because only extreme convictions 
and 
> extreme actions will comply with the principles they have set for 
> themselves.
> 
> You can still see it with Snape as a teacher. He keeps his classes 
> under control by order and obedience, too, and the worst thing that 
> could happen to him is students undermining his authority. Think of 
> his reaction in and after the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. What a 
> humiliation that must have been.
> 
> Snape wants his students to accept his authority over them as much 
as 
> he is ready to accept that of his superiors over him. Right, he 
does 
> criticise Dumbledore if he thinks he is too lenient, but always in 
> quite a polite way. He insists on adressing him very formally at 
all 
> times, never speaks ill of Dumbledore behind his back, and always 
> accepts his decisions in the end. 
> 
> 
> James, on the other hand, got all the respect and recognition he 
could 
> ask for, from his fellow students as well as his teachers, but he 
was 
> a rule-breaker and trouble-maker all the same. He just always got 
away 
> with it. I think that put Snape?s sense of justice to a hard test. 
It 
> just didn?t fit with his view of the world that you could break 
every 
> rule within your reach to pieces and still become a celebrated Head 
> boy and Quidditch hero and get the most attractive girl in the 
year. 
> He wasn?t only evious or jealous of James. James, with his actions 
> and his successes, upset Snape?s whole world.
> 
> And Harry does just the same.

I agree with just about everything you say, but one other aspect has 
just occurred to me.  What about fairness and justice?  Snape finds 
it extremely unfair that James and Harry, who are (or were) so 
popular, should get away with so much.  This much is clear.  What 
concerns me about his pre-occupation with rules and  justice is that 
in a way, it flies out of the window when Harry is concerned.  He 
uses it as a camouflage for needlessly punishing Harry and his 
friends.  Does Snape think that he is redressing the balance?  There 
are numerous occasions when Harry is treated very unfairly by Snape, 
and I feel that if Snape was so rigorously concerned with rules, 
rather than just trying to get his own back, he would not behave in 
such a way.


(Of course, there is an equal number of occasions when Snape is 
justified, if a little misguided.  After all, we know that in Harry's 
case the cause usually justifies the means, but clearly Snape cannot 
be expected to see this at the time).

Does everyone think that Snape will start to cut Harry a little slack 
in the next book (and vice versa)?  I have a feeling it will begin by 
their ignoring one another, rather than deliberately being 
antagonising.

Catherine




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 14:55:39 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 07:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9an162+olel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010407145539.27024.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16039


>>>Pulling an Obi-wan-kan-obi, from Star Wars.
 
>> Actually, wouldn't it be more likely that that's precisely the 
>> reason it won't happen, at least not just like that?  
> 
> Similar to the answer to why Snape is not going to return to V you 
> mean? If Harry points something out it won't happen? Only this time
> it was pointed out *to* Harry not *by* him, could there be a 
> difference? 

No, I meant that pulling an Obi-wan has already been done in Star
Wars and has already entered the popular culture, therefore removing
it from consideration.  JKR has a vivid imagination and she can
surely come up with something new.

Not to mention that George Lucas and his screenwriters would probably
be intensely ticked.


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr  7 16:21:02 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:21:02 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks a Kneazle?(concerns FB)
In-Reply-To: <13.13e865f8.27ffe04b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9anepe+nnib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16040

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/6/01 9:47:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> indigo at i... writes:
> 
> > > (This also features in my Draco's-not-evil-argument- Draco has 
> >  > encountered Crookshanks before, and if Crookshanks was a 
Kneazle, he 
> >  > would have hissed at Draco if Draco was truly evil. So there.)
> >  
> >  Not necessarily.  
> >  
> >  It says unsavory or untrustworthy in the description.  The 
sneakoscope 
> >  fired off around Fred and George, who are good boys, but were 
doing 
> >  something nasty to Bill.
> >  
> 
> Actually, I have a different take on the sneakoscope incident.  It 
was 
> assumed that Fred and George set it off, but that was before anyone 
knew what 
> was lurking in Ron's pocket!
> 
> Andrea

This too is true.

Since it went off in Harry's room for the same reason.

I prefer that over it nailing the Prankster Gangsters of the Wizarding 
World anyway.  *wink* 

Good catch! 

Indigo




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr  7 16:34:45 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 16:34:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <20010407115148.54545.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9anfj5+eelq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16041

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little 
hints
> > Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold 
> > together with strings that he has knotted Neatly...
> 
> Thanks for reminding me.  I have a question:
> 
> How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a good
> piece of luggage? 
> 
> 
Probably some kind of honor and respect thing.

The same reason Ron Weasley puts up with owning "rubbish" to use his 
own words, rather than magicing up cooler, neater stuff for himself.  

Either that, or certain things cost knuts, sickles and kneazles, and 
that's all there is to it.

Or -- since my brain seems to be working oddly this morning:

Lupin goes about looking bedraggled because people play less attention 
to him when he's looking bedraggled and shabby than when he's looking 
hale, hearty and prosperous?

Indigo




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr  7 18:56:19 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 11:56:19 -0700
Subject: Muggleborn students - Voldemort/Riddle - big bad John - Lupin
Message-ID: <3ACF62D2.273AD130@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16042

IIRC people started suggesting, under spoiler warnings, that Crookshanks
might be a Kneazle, on the evening of March 12. They also argued whether
the K is silent in Kneazle and Knut.

Vlaka wrote:
> What I'm wondering about are the reactions of Muggle-born
> kids and their parents.  Personally, if I found out that my
> (hypothetical) children were targeted by a hate group that
> was gaining power, I'd try to insure their [yes, yes I know, relative]
safety,

I wonder about this in relation to: How does Dumbledore persuade the
parents of  Muggleborn students to allow their children to attend
Hogwarts? Even parents who are too polite to say "I AM NOT PAYING FOR
SOME CRACKPOT OLD FOOL TO TEACH HIM MAGIC TRICKS!" would think something
along those lines: there is no such thing as magic, I am not going to
entrust my child to crazy people who believe in magic, even if they're
very nice people, my child has to go to a high school that will give her
a strong grounding in science and math so she can go to Caltech or MIT
for college, so Dumbledore (or his Admissions staff) must say some very
persuasive things to the parents.

And mentioning that there are evil wizarding terrorists going around
killing people in hope of installing a dictatorial type of government is
NOT going to make a good impression on the parents.

But denying it, if they ask, would be lying. I don't mean that parents
are knowledgeable enough to ask: What about Death Eaters? or even What
about wizarding terrorists?, but they could ask: Is there a lot of
violence in your world? How about crime? What are the dangers?

Samaporn Teeravechyan wrote:
> That brings me to the question about Voldemort being 'the last
> remaining ancestor of Slytherin'. I noted that as an error in word
> use, but then I recently found a web page saying that, although
> the word was corrected in some editions, later ones have the
> word 'ancestor' put back. Also, was someone speaking at the
> time or was it the narrator?

Dumbledore said it. I tend to believe that Dumbledore is as reliable as
the narrator (I'm not sure how reliable that is). If  he meant
'ancestor', that's cool: there must be a time-travel subplot going on.
If he meant 'descendent', I am annoyed because I want families like the
Malfoys (and even the Snapes) to claim that they are descended from
Salazar Slytherin and to have a scrap of plausibility to their claim.

Trina wrote:
> But Lord Voldemort is *not* his "true name."  His true name
> would be Tom Marvolo Riddle,

I think he ceased to be Tom Marvolo Riddle when he ceased to be "human
enough to die".  I think it was some specific point in the long process
of turning himself into a horrific immortal scaly snake-man.

> What would happen if Voldy's true identity were known by the
> rest of the wizarding world? How would that influence the
> upcoming fight?  ("That's who You-know-who is?  Why, I went
> to school with that despicable little prat!  I always knew he'd turn
> out to be no good. He convinced Binns I cheated on the Goblin
> Rebellion exam! Let me at him!") Would it make any difference?

The memory-Tom is depicted as so charming as well as intelligent and
magically talented that only Dumbledore distrusted him. People who
remembered Tom Riddle from their school days might be MORE attracted to
Voldie if they knew he was good ol' Tom Riddle rather than LESS
attracted.

> How about if it were common knowledge he was a half-
> Muggle himself?  How would his minions react to that?

At least Barty Jr knew it "We both had very unsatisfactory fathers." All
the DEs who came to the circle CAN know it -- I don't remember if V said
anything about that useless old Muggle finally does something useful,
but they could have read the name on the grave marker and later looked
up who Tom (not Marvolo) Riddle had been.

> He tells Harry in CoS that he had started calling himself LV
> while in school, but only his most intimate friends knew it.
>  (Query:  Where are those friends now and who were/are they?)

With the slower aging rate of wizarding folk, Lucius *could* have been
at school with Riddle. If Lucius and his father had both reproduced at
Muggleishly young ages, Lucius's father could have been at school with
Riddle.

Amy Z wrote:
> Chris wrote:
> >For a long time I believed that joining
> >a group as a posting member involved wrestling with a troll, I am
> >relieved to find that this is not the case (it isn't is it ?).
>
> No, but you do have to try on the hat.  Those who emerge as Slytherins

> are required to wear leather pants and chant daily, "Millicent
> Bulstrode is a foxy lady!"  And no trying 10 times 'til you get put in

> Gryffindor!
>
> As an alternative to trying on the hat, you may seek out and kill John

> Walton.  We have taken up a little collection and are offering a
> bounty of $25,000 US plus bail.  Welcome!

Doreen wrote:
> You obviously have not met our resident troll, John.

Here is the forbidden LOL reply. Cheers for Amy and Doreen!

Amy Z wrote:
> Harry's lack of curiosity about his parents may be one place
> where plot is driving character.

I still think that the reason why Harry doesn't speak or go to the
Library about his curiosity about his parents is one of the (amazingly
few) lingering effects of his Dursley upbringing: they didn't actually
succeed in beating the curiosity out of him, but did succeed in training
him to repress it

> Rita wrote:
> >I was saddened that FB's section on werewolves says nothing
> > about whether lycanthropy is contagious when the werewolf
> > is in human form.  If  human who happens to be a werewolf
> > bites you, do you become a werewolf? How about if he just
> > slobbers on you?
>
> Or kisses you deeply for hours and hours?

Mind reader!

Lea MacLeod wrote:
> He doesn't have decent stuff because he's so poor -
> he must  have had real trouble getting a job because nobody
> wants to employ a werewolf.

I agree with you, but it has been suggested that he doesn't have decent
WIZARDING stuff because he has been living in the Muggle world, because
he could get jobs THERE because Muggles at least don't believe in
werewolves. Hey, they might even be decent jobs if he can persuade
employers that he has to take off the days before and after the Full
Moon for religious reasons!

In the self-pity speech in the Shrieking Shack (and he has EVERY right
to give a self-pity speech!),  he said of  Dumbledore: "he gave me a job
when I have been
shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I
am." I always remember that as 'unable to find employment', which I
prefer: I expect he can't find much UNPAID work either if people refuse
to associate with him.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From homanm at umich.edu  Sat Apr  7 19:42:15 2001
From: homanm at umich.edu (homanm at umich.edu)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:42:15 -0000
Subject: Plug!
Message-ID: <9anqin+okfo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16043

Hi Everyone,
Just an announcement that the fifth chapter of Gokuh4060's story "The 
Importance of Being Ron" has been posted at ff.net.  If you pop over 
to read it, please write a review--they make my brother's day.  Also, 
he promises that such long waits between chapters are a thing of the 
past, as the school play and his Eagle Scout stuff are finished.  He 
thinks chapter six will be done by the end of next week.
Thanks,
Meg




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 19:42:58 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <3ACF62D2.273AD130@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010407194258.14615.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16044

> I wonder about this in relation to: How does
> Dumbledore persuade the
> parents of  Muggleborn students to allow their
> children to attend
> Hogwarts?

This brings up a point I've been wondering about for a
while now.  Clearly, there are Muggle-born students
like Hermione and Dean who managed to find their way
to Platform 9 3/4 and arrive at Hogwarts with all this
wonderful magical gear.  So...how do they find out
about Diagon Alley or Platform 9 3/4?  

The letter Harry got is apparently a form letter sent
out to all Hogwarts prospectives, but they don't all
have Hagrid to explain everything to them.  So what do
ordinary Muggle kids like Hermione do when they
suddenly get a letter inviting them to attend a school
for witchcraft and wizardry?  Do the Muggle-born get a
special letter tucked in to explain things to them? 
Do they get visits from the different professors? 


Andrea II (since there seems to be another of me
floating around somewhere <g>)

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr  7 21:45:19 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:45:19 -0000
Subject: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <20010407194258.14615.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ao1pf+eo46@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16045

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > I wonder about this in relation to: How does
> > Dumbledore persuade the
> > parents of  Muggleborn students to allow their
> > children to attend
> > Hogwarts?
> 
> This brings up a point I've been wondering about for a
> while now.  Clearly, there are Muggle-born students
> like Hermione and Dean who managed to find their way
> to Platform 9 3/4 and arrive at Hogwarts with all this
> wonderful magical gear.  So...how do they find out
> about Diagon Alley or Platform 9 3/4?  
> 
> The letter Harry got is apparently a form letter sent
> out to all Hogwarts prospectives, but they don't all
> have Hagrid to explain everything to them.  So what do
> ordinary Muggle kids like Hermione do when they
> suddenly get a letter inviting them to attend a school
> for witchcraft and wizardry?  Do the Muggle-born get a
> special letter tucked in to explain things to them? 
> Do they get visits from the different professors? 
> 
> 
> Andrea II (since there seems to be another of me
> floating around somewhere <g>)
> 
> 

Well,  Hermione's not the only person who's Muggle-born. As I recall, 
Dean Thomas and Justin Finch-Fletchley are too.

Hermione has mentioned getting *her* letter, and also says her parents 
were thrilled.

So I guess they do magical research on what kind of muggle parents the 
kids have so they know what approach to take.

Hermione's parents have even come through into Diagon Alley at least 
once, and were treated to the Weasley-Malfoy scuffle if I'm not 
mistaken. [CoS]

So that implies they can tell which Muggle-born students have parents 
who will be accepting, and which will have parents who need -- 
cajoling, coaxing, or convincing.

Indigo






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  7 22:02:29 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <20010407194258.14615.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010407220229.33599.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16046

> Clearly, there are Muggle-born students
> like Hermione and Dean who managed to find their way
> to Platform 9 3/4 and arrive at Hogwarts with all this
> wonderful magical gear.  So...how do they find out
> about Diagon Alley or Platform 9 3/4?  

Perhaps the Dursleys have been tossing out correspondence over the
years that would have shed light on this matter.  Hagrid was pretty
startled that Harry knew nothing about "what he was"; presumably
Muggle parents were informed early on so they could get used to the idea.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 22:14:33 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 22:14:33 -0000
Subject: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <20010407145539.27024.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ao3g9+fbd1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16047

But the scenario is not just confined to Star Wars.  It's been used 
many times, so I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore's gone by the 
end of book 6, if not earlier.
As for Snape becoming the Headmaster, has anybody read Harry Potter 
and the Doomspell Potion?  He did do an adequate job in the fanfic.  
But I see him becoming Headmaster of Durmstrang if he doesn't die and 
continue his interesting rivalry with McGonagall.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> 
> >>>Pulling an Obi-wan-kan-obi, from Star Wars.
>  
> >> Actually, wouldn't it be more likely that that's precisely the 
> >> reason it won't happen, at least not just like that?  
> > 
> > Similar to the answer to why Snape is not going to return to V 
you 
> > mean? If Harry points something out it won't happen? Only this 
time
> > it was pointed out *to* Harry not *by* him, could there be a 
> > difference? 
> 
> No, I meant that pulling an Obi-wan has already been done in Star
> Wars and has already entered the popular culture, therefore removing
> it from consideration.  JKR has a vivid imagination and she can
> surely come up with something new.
> 
> Not to mention that George Lucas and his screenwriters would 
probably
> be intensely ticked.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr  7 22:44:41 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 22:44:41 -0000
Subject: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <20010407220229.33599.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ao58p+abe0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16048

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Clearly, there are Muggle-born students
> > like Hermione and Dean who managed to find their way
> > to Platform 9 3/4 and arrive at Hogwarts with all this
> > wonderful magical gear.  So...how do they find out
> > about Diagon Alley or Platform 9 3/4?  
> 
> Perhaps the Dursleys have been tossing out correspondence over the
> years that would have shed light on this matter.  Hagrid was pretty
> startled that Harry knew nothing about "what he was"; presumably
> Muggle parents were informed early on so they could get used to the 
idea.
> 

Dumbledore himself wrote a letter to the Dursleys explaining what 
Harry was, that they received on or about the time he was left on 
their doorstep [PS/SS, chapter 1 or 2].

They ignored it and trashed it, and commenced their campaign to punish 
the magic out of him.






From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 02:32:48 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:32:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Li'l Miss Cellophane" (filk)
References: <9alh30+l5c3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE44TPyKC3FVPEJZ6Yc00000586@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16049

Awesome poem!  It really "touched" me.  Korny, I know, but it did.  Nice blend of humor and depth.  Got anymore?  
~Adrienne~
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: linman6868 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:48 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Li'l Miss Cellophane" (filk)


  "Li'l Miss Cellophane"
  ["Mister Cellophane" from CHICAGO]

  Respectfully dedicated to Caius


  [Enter Ginny Weasley, solo.]

  GINNY
  If some young witch at dinnertime
  Stood up and swore in perfect rhyme
  And waved her wand and threw a fit
  You'd notice her

  If someone in the midnight gloom 
  Yelled, "FIRE in the common room!"
  And even screamed a little bit
  You'd notice her

  And even without clucking like a hen
  Everyone gets noticed now and then
  Unless, of course, that personage should be
  Invisible, inconsequential me...

  Cellophane 
  Li'l Miss Cellophane
  Shoulda been my name
  Ginny Cellophane
  'Cos you can look right through me
  Walk right by me
  And never know I'm there!

  Suppose you were a gang of boys
  Who'd tease their sister for their joys
  And use her for their greatest jokes
  You'd notice her

  Suppose you shared a Hogwarts House
  With one who, quiet as a mouse,
  Spoke up for you against the blokes--
  You'd notice her

  You'd think with all the catastrophic fare
  We'd see more than a Weasley with red hair
  Unless that red-haired Weasley next to you
  Is unimpressive, undistinguished You-Know-Who...

  [spoken](And no, I don't mean Voldemort!)

  ...Shoulda been my name
  Ginny Cellophane
  'Cos you can look right through me 
  Walk right by me
  And never know I'm there
  I--tell--ya--
  Cellophane
  Li'l Miss Cellophane
  Shoulda been my name
  Ginny--Cellophane
  'Cos you can look right through me
  Walk right by me
  And never know I'm there
  Never even know I'm there...!


  [Shakes her fist at JKR impatiently and walks offstage]



  --Lisa


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From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 03:20:33 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:20:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  idiotic letter
References: <9alf8f+c2dk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE37xdxmHQhyI8avRZK000021c6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16050

That Stouffer lady just wants money and press.  She has no evidence to back up her accusations.  And the facts against her statements are piling higher.  When I first heard about her alligations in the *******Chronicle, I was like-"Who does she think she is?"  Then my friend pointed out, "Even if they are Stouffer's characters, she obviously didn't write them very well, or we would all be praising her for Harry Potter!"  She has a point.  If Stouffer did own those characters,  why isn't she famous?  The headline of the first article I read was: "Stouffer claims Harry Potter"  I turned to my mom and asked, "What would a stuffing maker do with HP?"  It was hilarious.  The point is, I didn't know who she was, and she was even American!   Oh, well.  It won't ammount to anything, the public loves JK too much to see her be forced to give up HP.  At any rate, there's my two knuts!

~Adrienne~
"Long Live Harry Potter!"

********************************************************************************************************************
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
~William James~
********************************************************************************************************************

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Haggridd 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:16 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: idiotic letter


  In a similar vein, let me report that there was a front page story in 
  the New York Times (www.nytimes.com) this past week about the
  Stouffer lawsuit, and similar allegations of plagiarism by 
  opportunists.  The newspaper didn't seem to think that there was much 
  merit to the Stouffer lawsuit.

  Haggridd


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From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 05:08:36 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:08:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reader's Digest Article JKR & HP's vulnerability
References: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010406145117.037c9a70@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE9Rf3sllNY30kkZIhT00001532@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16051

Hey.

I haven't seen the article, but I agree.  The glasses are significant.  Can't say why, but they are.  Your theory of the curse is a good one and can be backed by numerous events.  Seeing as I don't have the books in front of me and I am writing this at 1:00 am ET, I can't write them now; but I will look into it.  If that is true, it would probably take place during the 7th book, because Harry isn't Harry with out his glasses.  Another key "spectacle-wearing" Gryffindor is Dumbledore.  I don't think it actually says, but how can he be anything else?  The "vulnerability" thing : beeing near-sighted (literally, not metophorically) I totally understand that.  I can't even see the E at the top of the chart without squinting!  When I don't have my glasses on or loose my contacts (see "Unlikely Coven" for good description of this*) I am leading myself into abyss with the lesser of my sences.  Kinda freaky!  BTW : Speculation and rumors make for the best stories!  

~Adrienne~
*You can read "Unlikely Coven" on Minzzer's site at www.minzzer.tripod.com it is under "FanFics" and "Alicia Spinnet"
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Hardenbrook 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 4:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Reader's Digest Article JKR & HP's vulnerability


  At 04:25 PM 4/6/01 -0500, Doreen wrote:
  >Has this group read and discussed the Reader's Digest article about JKR? I
  >forgot I had it, since I was not reading HP at the time I read the article.
  >There was an interesting bit in there about his eyeglasses and his
  >vulnerability. JKR was peeved at one of the book cover artists in some other
  >country, for drawing HP without his glasses. She said something like,
  >"Doesn't he realize that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability?"

  Well, I've already commented on my theory that Salazaar Slytherin cursed
  all decendants of Goderic Gryiffindor so that they need glasses, and that
  the curse will break when Harry vanquishes V (after which he will no longer
  need glasses!).  But this is all wild speculation on my part... I do think 
  Harry's
  glasses are significant, however.  (Note too that most of the spectacle-wearing
  people whose house we know -- Harry, James, Percy, McGonnegal -- are all
  Gryffindors.)



                                                   -- Dave


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From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 05:31:59 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:31:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: idiotic letter in todays paper
References: <9ale0j+luqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE22luevz176RbFGIUU00002436@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16052

*laughing hysterically*  I haven't read that specific letter, but have read many like it. It is the comic relief of my day when some pathetically ignorant "child*" forms a half-baked idea from speculation and rumors and decides to "remove all doubt^" of his stupidity by publishing the written form.  I agree, many good books/pieces of literature are extensions or rip-offs of another work.  Even outside the Magical Genre I see evidence of it.  For our Choir University Interscholastic League(UIL) Competition we sang a piece that was the basic "Romeo & Juliet" story.  Not only that, but one of the members had said that she read the something like the lyrics a while before in one of her poetry books.  It happens all the time, but only becomes a big issue when the spin-off becomes phenomenal and the "original" (if there is such a thing) writer is extremely greedy.  
Notations: 
    ^ "It is better to be thought a fool  than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."  ~Thomas Jefferson~
    * I'm using "child" in the sense of one who is naive and not learned in the goings on of the world.  Not as an age group adjective.  If you still don't get what I'm saying, e-mail me:
        chinachick1616 at hotmail.com

~Adrienne~

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 4:55 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: idiotic letter in todays paper



  Of course the obvious question is why aren't the writers named by the letter writer sueing JKR?

  The answer is that like Neil Gaimen they very likely don't believe that the similarities are such a big deal. JKR is not the first writer to write about young wizards or to send them to school. Her style and the shape of her stories is verrrryyyy different from Jane Yolen's.

  I happen to know Jane Yolen. I studied with her at Smith. She is a very cool lady who has herself borrowed heavily from fairy tales and 
  mythology and took much inspiration from other fine writers. John Crowley's book "Little Big" in particular had a huge effect on her, and a number of her stories show his inspiration, and yes, even rip off details (which Crowley himself ripped off from Tolkien). The works are completely different. Crowley and Yolen are neighbors 
  and play poker regularly. It's not a problem because Jane has her vision and it is all hers, and nobody but nobody is another John Crowley.

  A true writer with a great story to tell about another witch or wizard is not going to feel threatened by JKR-- more likely he or she will feel inspired, charged up, and encouraged and be happy for her success. They are also goingnto realize that our fascination with witches and wizards and coming of age are literally as old as the 
  hills.

  *Shrug* That's my take.  I don't think this letter really supports Stouffer. It is however naive and shows little understanding of creativity. I also wonder if she has actually read Jane Yolen. The work cited really is nothing like Harry Potter. I suspect she is repeating stories she has heard elsewhere.

  --Suzanne




  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at s...> wrote:
  > Joywitch wrote:
  Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, VA, in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  The URL is:

  http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46988-2001Apr5.html

  This letter is sooo lame. I wondered for a moment or two if it was supposed to be sarcastic; it's that pathetic. Talk about tenuous parallels...Didn't this woman read the letter over before mailing it, and realize? It defies belief. I can imagine that she had a point all worked out in her head and decided to put it into words, but, good  Lord. It's just dreadfully weak.

  Dai



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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 01:45:46 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <20010407220229.33599.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010408014546.35129.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16053

--- Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Perhaps the Dursleys have been tossing out
> correspondence over the
> years that would have shed light on this matter. 
> Hagrid was pretty
> startled that Harry knew nothing about "what he
> was"; presumably
> Muggle parents were informed early on so they could
> get used to the idea.

Hmm...I took that to mean that they'd never told Harry
about his parents or the circumstances of their death.
 Dumbledore *did* leave a letter with Harry on the
Dursleys' doorstep explaining why Harry had to live
with them.  He indicated that they would explain it
all to Harry when he was old enough.

Evidence seems to rule against the idea of Muggle
parents getting previous letters, at least to my
reading.  All the Muggle-born wizards talk about how
surprised they and their parents were at getting the
letter.  Justin Fitch-Fletchly says his name was down
for Eton, which wouldn't be the case if his mother
already knew he was going to Hogwarts.  And I recall
Colin Creevy saying something about his dad the
milkman being very surprised too. 


Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 03:16:04 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:16:04 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9am7vu+879n@eGroups.com>
References: <F112YhAOylhgnFZS4HI0000096e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407201413.032f12c0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16054

At 05:18 AM 4/7/01 +0000, williamhause2000 at yahoo.com wrote:
>Also Harry
>notices how very old Dumbledore is and that to makes me think he will
>be gone soon.  Who will replace him as Head Master?  Snape?

I don't think D. has to die to be replaced.  I think Fudge is already
thinking about forcing him out.  I think Headmaster Snape is a
definite possibility... Failing that, Headmaster Malfoy??



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 03:21:07 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:21:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Foreshadowing (was Re: The Future for Dumbledore}
In-Reply-To: <9am9cl+3mam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407201757.032f96f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16055

At 05:42 AM 4/7/01 +0000, Haggridd wrote:
>Fleur Delacouer's seeking a job at Hogwarts...

Here's a thought: If Snape becomes Headmaster,
perhaps Fleur will become Potions Mistress?  (Maybe
*this* is Fleur's forte -- Obviously Potions knowledge
wouldn't have helped much in the Triwizard Tournament.)



                                                 -- Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 03:26:59 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 03:26:59 -0000
Subject: about muggleborn students
Message-ID: <9aolq3+ja0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16056

This theory has floated around the group for awhile, but I will 
repeat it, as the topic has popped up once again. (speaking for all 
the jaded oldtimers out there, dont you just wish a new topic would 
pop up occasionally, or better yet, a new HP book?)

People have speculated that muggleborn students, after they receive 
their letters, get a visit from a staff member in order to inform 
them about Diagon Alley, how to get on to Platform 9 3/4, and 
probably to cast spells on any reluctant muggle parents.  I think 
that Hagrid does not usually perform this task, but was asked to do 
this for Harry, probably because Dumbledore knew there would be 
trouble and thought the Dursleys would be intimidated by Hagrids 
size, or because he sensed that Harry would need a friend and Hagrid 
would be a good one, or both reasons.  Since Hagrid doesnt usually do 
the muggle family home visits, he forgot to tell Harry how to get on 
Platform 9 3/4.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 03:34:17 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:34:17 -0700
Subject: The Storming of Azkaban -- Voldy's first blunder?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407202142.032fec80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16057

I was listening to the scene in the cave in GoF, when Sirius
is talking to H, R, & H. and I'm wondering: If Crouch could
send one innocent man (Sirius) to Azkaban without a trial, how
many other innocent people are in there?  What if Voldy's
"breaking open of Azkaban" liberates as many of his bitter foes
as his devoted allies?


                                                 -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Apr  8 04:25:30 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 04:25:30 -0000
Subject: The Storming of Azkaban -- Voldy's first blunder?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407202142.032fec80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9aop7q+rr46@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16058

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

What if Voldy's
> "breaking open of Azkaban" liberates as many of his bitter foes
> as his devoted allies?

(1) Almost certainly the great majority of those convicted were 
guilty, even if the judicial process failed to meet the appropriate 
standards of impartiality and fairness. Barty Crouch Jr. was beyond 
the shadow of a doubt a follower of Voldemort, even though the 
mechanisms that served to convict him were flagrantly biased. And as 
for Sirius Black, his was an unusual case in that he was so 
convincingly framed by Peter Pettigrew. 

(2) If you were to be unjustly imprisoned for a number of years as a 
supporter of the XXX party, despite your stalwart opposition to them, 
and the XXX party later secures your liberty, would your loyalties 
instantly return to the ruling regime which had remained content to 
let you rot? Or might'nt you feel some new warmth towards your 
liberators?

  - CMC





From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Apr  8 05:55:31 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 05:55:31 -0000
Subject: flying
Message-ID: <9aougj+1991@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16059

Okay, I'm back from my week on a delightful little island off the 
coast of the state of Georgia (USA). I just uploaded something like 
thirty new and/or improved pages to the Lexicon, including an updated 
timeline and a day-by-day calendar of SS/PS. 

One of these pages is about brooms. Now that QTA is out, I've had to 
do some editing, as you might imagine. But I've bumped unexpectedly 
into a bit of a mystery. This was probably discussed ages ago, maybe 
before I was part of this group, so if it was, indulge me. 

According to QTA, there is no spell that allows a person to fly. So 
how did Hagrid get to the Hut on the Rock? He SAYS that he flew 
there. Okay, since it couldn't have been just Superman-style, arms 
out, flying, what did he use? A broomstick? Then where is it? If he'd 
left it outside but it was swept away in the storm, he'd have been 
looking for it when he came out in the morning. And think about how 
big a broomstick he would need. Certainly he didn't drive the 
motorcycle--that was ten years ago. And if he still had it since 
Sirius Black had gone after Pettigrew that day in 1981, and if he 
then used it to get to Harry in 1991, it should be sitting there, 
parked on the rock in the morning sunshine. No, I don't believe that 
he used the motorcycle. So HOW DID HE FLY? Mary Poppins-style, using 
that pink flowered umbrella of his?

I'm adding that to my "Questions to ask JKR when I get to interview 
her for the Lexicon" list.

One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies a 
broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. I 
realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR hadn't 
thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should certainly be able 
to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. Maybe he accidentally let 
his Apparition license expire...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr  8 06:10:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:10:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] flying
References: <9aougj+1991@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c0bff2$9316a6e0$1d14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16060

Steve Vander Ark wrote:
One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies a
broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. I
realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR hadn't
thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should certainly be able
to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. Maybe he accidentally let
his Apparition license expire...

Doreen writes:

Doesn't Hermione say, over & over again, that you can not apparate into or
out of Hogwarts? Perhaps that is why Dumbledore used his broomstick.  The
other reason, IMO, is that he was removed from his office, so maybe that had
something to do with it.






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 09:21:21 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:21:21 -0000
Subject: Muggleborn students
In-Reply-To: <20010408014546.35129.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9apaih+3nd0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16061

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Perhaps the Dursleys have been tossing out
> > correspondence over the
> > years that would have shed light on this matter. 
> > Hagrid was pretty
> > startled that Harry knew nothing about "what he
> > was"; presumably
> > Muggle parents were informed early on so they could
> > get used to the idea.
> Evidence seems to rule against the idea of Muggle
> parents getting previous letters, at least to my
> reading.  All the Muggle-born wizards talk about how
> surprised they and their parents were at getting the
> letter.  Justin Fitch-Fletchly says his name was down
> for Eton, which wouldn't be the case if his mother
> already knew he was going to Hogwarts.  And I recall
> Colin Creevy saying something about his dad the
> milkman being very surprised too. 
>>
> Andrea II

I am wondering how surprised all these parents must have been.  
Harry, for instance, did uncontrolled magic unconsciously, and if he 
did this, then isn't it likely that some of the Muggle-born children 
did as well?  Therefore isn't it likely that some of the parents 
thought: Hmm, something strange is going on here....and were perhaps 
quite relieved that their suspicions were justified when they 
received the letter, and realised that they weren't mad to think that 
their child could "do" magic?

Just a thought,
Catherine




From betty_belladonna at freenet.de  Sun Apr  8 10:29:32 2001
From: betty_belladonna at freenet.de (Dinah)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:29:32 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The future for Dumbledore
References: <F112YhAOylhgnFZS4HI0000096e@hotmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010407201413.032f12c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c0c016$cd678160$b02e07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16062

> I don't think D. has to die to be replaced.  I think Fudge is already
> thinking about forcing him out.  I think Headmaster Snape is a
> definite possibility...

With that joice Fudge would finally show just how "great" he is in judging
people. What a blast. Snape would be a headmaster that'd fight the dark arts
and the death-eaters with all his might (and there's a lot of it <g>) and he
wouldn't be as diplomatic as Dubledore always was. I can see some heads
rolling... (poor students, though - Filch and his cat are nothin against the
scenario I have in my head when Severus becomes headmaster)

>Failing that, Headmaster Malfoy??
>-- Dave

Now that would be bad. But since there are so many people that know the bad
reputation of the Malfoys and his involvement with Voldemort, I don't think
he could pull that through. After all, the Slytherins represent only about
1/4 of Hogwarts - and even there not everyone can be a death-eater
sympathisant.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

When it is dark enough, you can see the stars.

~ Charles A. Beard




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 10:49:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:49:03 -0000
Subject: Hermione in US/UK
Message-ID: <9apfmv+jcl0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16063

Ahhhhh . . . I have just returned from Canada, Land of the UK 
Editions, and am finally, joyfully the owner of my very own Harry 
Potter books!  I will resist buying a full set of the US edition, but 
thanks to the library I can now indulge in one of my favorite 
obsessions: finding differences between the editions.  Some, like the 
fact that Harry refers to his "mum," not his "mom," in PS, just 
confirm my view that Arthur Levine is being a disingenuous jerk when 
he says they only translated the expressions that would cause 
confusion.  I accuse him of trying to Americanize Harry.  They seem to 
have stopped making that particular change since JKR made it big.

But I'm particularly intrigued by the more substantial changes.  
Here's one:

UK PoA, p. 272:

  "Er--Mr. Black--Sirius?" said Hermione timidly.
  Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as 
though being spoken to politely was something he'd long forgotten.

US PoA, p. 370:

  "Er--Mr. Black--Sirius?" said Hermione.
  Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as 
though he had never seen anything quite like her.

I really like the change.  The UK version seems a bit obvious to me.

The US version also de-timidifies Hermione, which leads me to another 
passage that I'm 99% sure doesn't exist in the US edition (darn . . . 
maybe I do need a set of those . . . no! bad! ::bangs head against 
wall::):

  'I think we'll be able to pull the door open,' said Ron, peering 
over [Fluffy's] back.  'Want to go first, Hermione?'
  'No, I don't!'
  'All right.'  Ron gritted his teeth and stepped carefully over the 
dog's legs.  He bent and pulled the ring of the trapdoor . . . etc. 
(PS p. 200)

Could someone with a US edition confirm that this isn't in it?  I 
could swear I've never read that before.

Amy Z

------------------------------------
 "Yeah, Dumbledore's barking, all 
 right," said Ron proudly. 
    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------
new, corrected sig (formerly said "off his rocker")




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 10:52:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:52:59 -0000
Subject: A Dark Mark thought - Glasses
Message-ID: <9apfub+n5lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16064

lea.macleod wrote:

>I think JKR will want her readers to appreciate, through the eyes of 
>Harry, this heroism. But that will not be possible if Snape?s mistake 
>(e.g. joining the DE in the first place) can?t be forgiven. And his 
>mistake getting him in the end anyway WILL mean that there can be no 
>forgiving and no atonement.

His mistake might be irremediable (word?) and still forgivable.  He 
can't escape the consequences of his decision, but he can at least do 
what he can to save the rest of the world from Voldemort.  Helping to 
bring about V's downfall when he knows it would cause his own would be 
the ultimate atonement.  Like Ellidyr in The Black Cauldron.  (We 
don't know =what= Snape has to atone for.  Did he ever kill anyone, 
torture anyone, . . . ?)  

Amanda, I think it's a great as well as a chilling theory.  The only 
flaw I can see in it is the fact that Dumbledore, for one, has said 
flat-out that Voldemort can't be killed (PS/SS 17).  But I still see 
wiggle room there; there might be some way he could be 
all-but-destroyed, as he was before.

Dave wrote:

>Well, I've already commented on my theory that Salazaar Slytherin 
cursed
>all decendants of Goderic Gryiffindor so that they need glasses, and 
that
>the curse will break when Harry vanquishes V (after which he will no 
longer
>need glasses!).  But this is all wild speculation on my part... I do 
think 
>Harry's glasses are significant, however.  (Note too that most of the 
spectacle-wearing
>people whose house we know -- Harry, James, Percy, McGonnegal -- are 
all
>Gryffindors.)

Dumbledore and Arthur, also (my nitpicker's warning system says:  we 
don't know whether McGonagall was in Gryffindor as a student--but I 
say Head of House is close enough to qualify).  Now I'm trying 
to think whether we know =any= characters who wear glasses who aren't 
known to be in Gryffindor.

I interpret JKR's comment differently.  Giving her hero glasses is a 
metaphorical way of saying that he is human, flawed, and vulnerable.  
For an illustrator to leave them out is like drawing Harry with big 
biceps.  His vulnerability is essential to who he is and what the 
books are about.

But she =could= be hinting that there's more to his glasses than that. 
 We know (because JKR told us, curse her! -it would have surprised me 
utterly) that there's a magical significance to the similarity between 
Lily's and Harry's eyes.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 "Very haunted up here, isn't it?" said Ron, 
 with the air of one commenting on the weather.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------- 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 11:03:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:03:31 -0000
Subject: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aougj+1991@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apgi3+fqpp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16065

Steve wrote:
 
> One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies a 
> broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. I 
> realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR hadn't 
> thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should certainly be able 
> to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. Maybe he accidentally let 
> his Apparition license expire...

Arthur says some wizards still prefer a broomstick.  Maybe Dumbledore 
flew to London because he thought it'd be a nice trip.  But I bet he 
Apparated back, having learned it was a snipe hunt.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
 Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 11:16:22 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:16:22 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <9anfj5+eelq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apha6+nolk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16066

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little 
> hints

> > Thanks for reminding me.  I have a question:
> > 
> > How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a 
good piece of luggage? 
> > 
> 
> The same reason Ron Weasley puts up with owning "rubbish" to use 
his own words, rather than magicing up cooler, neater stuff for 
himself.  
> 
> Either that, or certain things cost knuts, sickles and kneazles, 
and that's all there is to it.
> 
> Or -- since my brain seems to be working oddly this morning:
> Lupin goes about looking bedraggled because people play less 
attention  to him when he's looking bedraggled and shabby than when 
he's looking  hale, hearty and prosperous?
> 
> Indigo

That's an interesting interpretation.  Certainly Remus has been 
battered emotionally in his life by people's mistrust of him, so 
maybe this is a way to be inconspicuous.  As I read this reponse I 
had another thought.  Maybe this is an outcome of Lupin's reactions 
to the aftermath of the deaths of James, Lily, and Peter, due to 
Sirius' betrayal. These were the people closest to Remus, the only 
ones that we know of who accepted Remus completely, who he trusted 
with his werewolf secret, and he lost all of them.  Plus, Remus 
doesn't learn the real story behind James and Lily's deaths for over 
12 years.  
I could certainly understand that Remus' state of mind during all 
this time might be such that he doesn't care about the general 
appearance of his material things, because, in the long run, that 
stuff just doesn't matter.  Having Louis Vuitton luggage won't 
replace the love of your dead friends.  Combine this attitude with 
the problem of not having a lot of money to begin with, and you get 
the "shabby professor" look.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 11:25:06 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 04:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The future for Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <001d01c0c016$cd678160$b02e07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010408112506.50161.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16067


>Failing that, Headmaster Malfoy??
>-- Dave

Wouldn't that be too much like a real job?  And aren't the Malfoys
above taking real jobs?  A bit of a social comedown.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 11:25:49 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:25:49 -0000
Subject: The Storming of Azkaban -- Voldy's first blunder?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407202142.032fec80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9aphrt+f38g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16068

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> I was listening to the scene in the cave in GoF, when Sirius
> is talking to H, R, & H. and I'm wondering: If Crouch could
> send one innocent man (Sirius) to Azkaban without a trial, how
> many other innocent people are in there?  What if Voldy's
> "breaking open of Azkaban" liberates as many of his bitter foes
> as his devoted allies?
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

What's to stop Voldy from simply releasing his supporters from 
Azkaban and having the Dementors give The Kiss to those who, like 
Sirius, were unjustly imprisoned non-DEs?

Marianne




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 11:35:23 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:35:23 -0000
Subject: Hermione in US/UK
In-Reply-To: <9apfmv+jcl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apidr+3btj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16069

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

 
>   'I think we'll be able to pull the door open,' said Ron, peering 
> over [Fluffy's] back.  'Want to go first, Hermione?'
>   'No, I don't!'
>   'All right.'  Ron gritted his teeth and stepped carefully over 
the 
> dog's legs.  He bent and pulled the ring of the trapdoor . . . etc. 
> (PS p. 200)
> 
> Could someone with a US edition confirm that this isn't in it?  I 
> could swear I've never read that before.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
I'm at work, so can't confirm this until I get home with my copy of 
PS/SS. 

But I'm only a week out from my last reread of it, and I'm almost 
positive this exchange does indeed take place...or something much 
like it. 

Harry goes first. Calls up to the others that it's a soft landing.  

Ron comes next.

Hermione comes down last, and is clever enough to realize they're all 
in Devil's Snare vines.

Indigo




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 11:45:25 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:45:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <9apha6+nolk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apj0l+20ee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16070

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> > > >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little 
> > hints
> 
> > > Thanks for reminding me.  I have a question:
> > > 
> > > How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a 
> good piece of luggage? 
> > > 
> > 
> > The same reason Ron Weasley puts up with owning "rubbish" to use 
> his own words, rather than magicing up cooler, neater stuff for 
> himself.  
> > 
> > Either that, or certain things cost knuts, sickles and kneazles, 
> and that's all there is to it.

My goodness but I wasn't jetting on all 12 yesterday. Knuts, sickles 
and kneazles indeed.  I meant Galleons of course.  ::blush:: 

> > 
> > Or -- since my brain seems to be working oddly this morning:
> > Lupin goes about looking bedraggled because people play less 
> attention  to him when he's looking bedraggled and shabby than when 
> he's looking  hale, hearty and prosperous?
> > 
> > Indigo
> 
> That's an interesting interpretation.  Certainly Remus has been 
> battered emotionally in his life by people's mistrust of him, so 
> maybe this is a way to be inconspicuous.  As I read this reponse I 
> had another thought.  Maybe this is an outcome of Lupin's reactions 
> to the aftermath of the deaths of James, Lily, and Peter, due to 
> Sirius' betrayal. These were the people closest to Remus, the only 
> ones that we know of who accepted Remus completely, who he trusted 
> with his werewolf secret, and he lost all of them.  Plus, Remus 
> doesn't learn the real story behind James and Lily's deaths for 
over 
> 12 years.  
> I could certainly understand that Remus' state of mind during all 
> this time might be such that he doesn't care about the general 
> appearance of his material things, because, in the long run, that 
> stuff just doesn't matter.  Having Louis Vuitton luggage won't 
> replace the love of your dead friends.  Combine this attitude with 
> the problem of not having a lot of money to begin with, and you get 
> the "shabby professor" look.

Definitely also a contributing factor.

Then there's also the fact that Remus just can't get a decently 
paying job because he is a werewolf. That much has been said outright 
in so many words.

So what little money he has quite likely goes for stuff he considers 
more important than pristine robes and expensive luggage.

What money he has likely goes for food, spell and potion elements, 
and research into how to cure the werewolf condition, or into the 
Werewolf Services department at MoM for counseling the recently 
bitten or accursed.

I'd rather have a good meal than a new outfit any day.  

Lucius Malfoy would say clothes make the man, but look at Gilderoy 
Lockhart's fabulous collection of different colored robes for all 
occasions, and fancy trunks and whatnot and weigh it against his true 
magical knowledge...

...and compare to Remus' unspectacular luggage and careworn, but 
neatly patched wardrobe versus his true magical knowledge. 

This supports my theory that Remus' cashflow (such that it is) is 
keeping him magically current and fed, rather than well-dressed...and 
that Remus is keeping himself neat insofar as his limited wardrobe 
and haberdashery will permit.

Side note: 
I'm still wondering what Dumbledore was thinking hiring on Lockhart 
for the DADA job. 







From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 11:47:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:47:59 -0000
Subject: A Dark Mark thought - Glasses
In-Reply-To: <9apfub+n5lc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apj5f+tffp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16071

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> 
> Amanda, I think it's a great as well as a chilling theory.  The 
only 
> flaw I can see in it is the fact that Dumbledore, for one, has said 
> flat-out that Voldemort can't be killed (PS/SS 17).  But I still 
see 
> wiggle room there; there might be some way he could be 
> all-but-destroyed, as he was before.
> 

That, to my mind, is the best reason why the theory is not likely to 
be true (although, I too think it's very clever). Voldy was 
all-but-destroyed and what happened was that the *Dark Mark* faded - 
not the Death Eaters themselves. It would seem that the connection 
is between Voldy and the mark, not Voldy and the bearers of the mark. 
(OTOH, it's not conclusive. You might argue that only Voldy's 
complete death will affect the bearers of the mark.)
Another argument against the theory: I don't think that Voldy, with 
his quest of immortality, would plan for the event of his death. To 
me, his obsessiveness with immortality implies a huge fear of death, 
which would prevent him from even contemplating the possiblity of his 
death (the way some people don't make wills).

Naama


 




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sun Apr  8 12:14:50 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:14:50 -0000
Subject: Hermione in US/UK
In-Reply-To: <9apidr+3btj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9apknq+qqlp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> Harry goes first. Calls up to the others that it's a soft landing.  
> 
> Ron comes next.
> 
> Hermione comes down last, and is clever enough to realize they're 
all 
> in Devil's Snare vines.

Which prompts the funniest line in HP ever...

"Have you gone mad?" Ron bellowed. "Are you a witch or not?"

and shortly after,

Yeah," said Ron, "and lucky Harry doesn't lose his head in a crisis -
 'there's no wood', honestly.'



Dai





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 13:38:21 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:38:21 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV revisited
Message-ID: <9appkd+9s3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16073

I'm sorry to be so late in responding, but I had an incredibly busy 
week (including hand feeding a week-old kitten that some nice, kind, 
sweet person put in a garbage dumpster). I'm answering here only some 
of the points raised in the posts. I hope I'll have time to continue 
with the rest in the following days.


Rina wrote:
>For me, it's a logical step to assume that if we only know what he 
>does, we're seeing it from his perspective, which is naturally 
>colored by his own thoughts.


This is a basic assumption that, I think, is at the base of many POV 
arguments. I disagree completely with this assumption.
There is really only one type of narrative which is *necessarily* 
coloured by the thoughts of the protagonist and that is a diary (I 
mean a real diary, not a story written in the form of a diary). 
To illustrate this point: If I write in my diary an account of what 
happened today at work, I am bound by my impressions of what 
happened, so necessarily the narrative is coloured by my thoughts, 
childhood experiences, associations, personality and so on. But, if 
I'm writing a story in which a character is telling a story, I can 
make that inner story completely factual or completely skewed by the 
story tellers perspective, as I choose. Since I'm the author, I'm 
the inventor of the incidents of which I'm writing, so I know what 
"really" happened, and therefore can make the character describe it 
as it really was. Or else, I may choose to have the character skew 
the facts. I can even choose to do both - have the character tell the 
facts and then add her take on them. 
So, even if the story was told completely from Harry's POV (and it 
isn't) I would still maintain that it doesn't follow logically that 
the story is coloured by Harry's POV. That would depend on JKR's 
intentions, on what the "jobs" are that her narrative is meant to 
perform. 
Which brings back my original question - what evidence is there that 
the narrative is coloured by Harry's POV? I'll phrase it in another 
way - are there any cases where what is presented to us as a *fact* 
turns out to be not a fact but a skewing of the reality (by Harry's 
POV)?
>From my reading of the books, facts are facts and they are clearly 
distinguished from what Harry thinks and feels about them. 

Charmian:
>Sometimes Harry just doesn't have enough information, and we are 
>misled. (you know, all those nice surprises at the end of the 
>books.)

Yes, Harry is misled and so are we. But, in all the HP mystery plots, 
I think that what actually happens is clearly distinguished from the 
interpretation Harry gives it (for instance, I didn't suspect Snape 
in PS; he was too obviously a red herring). Secondly, Harry is misled 
because the reality is misleading. It doesn't really have a lot to do 
with his personal view of things. Who did suspect Quirrel, Ginny, 
Scabbers or Moody? Everybody (except Snape with Quirrel) is taken in 
by the bad guys - including Dumbledore who didn't realize that his 
"old friend" is an impostor.
Compare this way of constructing a mystery with the "idiot sidekick" 
type of narrative (e.g., Dr. Watson, Captain Hastings). In this type 
of narrative, a lot of the misleading does arise because the teller 
of the story perceives the reality wrongly (Hastings always falling 
for the auburn haired women, for instance..<g> ).

Echo:
<snip>
>I agree that it is in third person limited, but that doesn't mean 
>that at least some things aren't seen in Harry's POV, and his 
>opinion of them.For example, when Dudley was described as "a pig in 
>a wig", I believe that's Harry's opinion of what Dudley looked like.


It *is* Harry's opinion and it is also *presented as* Harry's 
opinion:
"Aunt Petunia often said that Dudley looked like a baby angel - Harry 
often said that Dudley looked like a pig in a wig." (PS UK; p. 21)

My point is not that Harry's opinions aren't given. Of course they 
are. My point is that they are given in such a way that we easily 
distinguish them from the facts (that Dudley really is very obese, 
for instance). 


Amanda:
>I don't know if this is the sort of thing you have in mind, Naama et
>al., but here's my take. I don't think you will be able to "prove"
>coloring by Harry's viewpoint, simply because JKR doesn't step out 
>of his "eyes" much for any objective measure, at least of the things
>Harry's seeing. The only time she's altered that were scenes where 
>we as readers needed information that Harry would not know or could 
>not supply.

>I think Harry's interpretation of what he's experiencing *must* 
>affect how we interpret it. I think it's supposed to; we're learning 
>about the wizarding world and his past along with him. And one 
>person's interpretation can be valid, but still wrong or incomplete. 

<snipping out Amanda's husband>

>The point here is that Harry's interpretations of what he perceives 
>may be valid, and still not correct (or not entirely correct). It 
>has been demonstrated to us as readers many times, that things, 
>connections, and knowledge which are common as dirt to "native" 
>wizards are often totally missed by Harry. There's a big window for 
>"coloring" right there, but it will be invisible to us as readers 
>until a character corrects Harry, updating his point of view.


I agree there's an opportunity for colouring, but the question is - 
does it actually occur? Does JKR use this opportunity? Again, I think 
not. 
It's true that Harry doesn't know a lot of stuff that a lot of the 
others do know, but I haven't seen that his ignorance has ever played 
any role besides causing the missing bit of information to be 
presented. He hears of Quidditch, asks what Quidditch is and is told; 
needs to use floo powder and is told how to use it, etc. I cannot 
recall a single incident where his ignorance causes him and us to 
*misconceive* part of the reality. 



Naama, who has quite a bit more to say but has to feed (and make pee) 
the cat..





From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 15:29:39 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:29:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV revisited
In-Reply-To: <9appkd+9s3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq053+fa9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16074

Recently in English class, we talked about a different kind of POV. I 
haven't been participating in this discussion, so I don't know that 
it's been brought up: third-person subjective (we're reading William 
Kennedy's Ironweed which is an extreme example of this).

Third-person subjective can also be third-person limited, as in the 
case of HP. We have Harry's POV in that we can only see what he sees -
- with the exception of the Quidditch scene in PS and the first 
chapter of GoF, there are no scenes where Harry is not present. He 
has to overhear things or be told them, or be in on the conversation 
in some way, in order for us to hear or know things.

But third-person subjective is a little different. In that POV, the 
narrator is almost another character, one who is not all-knowing, but 
who has his/her own opinions of things. In Ironweed, the narrator-
character often asks rhetorical questions, or slips from an educated 
dialect into that of the bums that populate the story. In HP, I would 
say that the narrator usually agrees with Harry, but in some cases 
(as with Quirrell) makes it obvious that that is not what the 
narrator-character thinks has happened. There are other possiblities 
too -- I wonder how much Harry has really noticed about Ron's crush 
on Hermione, for instance. We usually get all that information from 
the narrator (though at the end of the Yule Ball chapter, Harry does 
think that Hermione "got the point more than Ron" or something like 
that).

The third-person subjective part of the HP narration is probably 
secondary to the third-person limited. My guess is that usually we 
get Harry's opinion (perhaps this is because the narrator-character 
agrees with it most of the time). Occasionally, though, I think our 
narrator-character is more observant for the sake of the reader.

What do you guys think?

Stacy





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 15:31:23 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:31:23 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV revisited
In-Reply-To: <9appkd+9s3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq08b+ni1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16075

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > I agree there's an opportunity for colouring, but the question 
is - does it actually occur? Does JKR use this opportunity? Again, I 
think not. 


Although I understand the points that the others are making, I think 
I'm leaning toward Naama's point of view here.  :::Everyone faints 
with shock, including Eb:::  Part of the reason why I like fanfic is 
because I like seeing other PoVs explored, such as Draco Malfoy's or 
Angelina Johnson's or even Pansy Parkinson's.  

But in canon, I'm content with Harry's viewpoint for the most part.

It'd be different if Harry was a pathological liar, or mentally 
deranger.  In those types of accounts (Silence of the Lambs) we KNOW 
not to trust the PoV of the viewpoint character.

It would also be different if the genre of this story was "tall tale"-
-we'd then know to expect exaggeration from the narrator.

However, we see this particular world through Harry's glasses, like 
it or not.

If we can't trust his take on things, who can we trust?

*hides from Heidi*

--Ebony AKA AngieJ 




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 15:52:58 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:52:58 -0000
Subject: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aougj+1991@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq1gq+lnut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16076

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> According to QTA, there is no spell that allows a person to fly. So 
> how did Hagrid get to the Hut on the Rock? [snip] So HOW DID HE 
FLY? Mary Poppins-style, using 
> that pink flowered umbrella of his?

I have wondered this, too.  Absolutely the only references to flying 
in the HP books all involve of objects such as brooms, flying 
carpets, flying ford anglias, motorcycles, etc, none of which were in 
evidence as Harry and Hagrid left the Hut-on-the-Rock.  There are 
several possible explanations that I have come up with:

1 - I suppose a pink umbrella could be used like a broom or a 
carpet.  I rather like the image of Hagrid-as-Mary-Poppins flying 
along with his pink umbrella, except that the pink umbrella never 
gets opened, IIRC, probably because Hagrid's broken wand is hidden 
inside it.  But I suppose he could have spellotaped the wand to the 
inside of the umbrella so that it doesn't fall out.  

2 - Another possibility is that he used an (illegal) flying carpet 
which he folded up and put in one of his pockets, along with the 
teapot, teakettle, mugs, birthday cake, sausages, dormice, flask, dog 
biscuits, etc.  

3 - For that matter, maybe he has a Cleansweep Family Foldable Model 
broom which comes with a zippered pouch and fits neatly in any small 
space.  

4 - Or, maybe he was lying to Harry, or stretching the truth, because 
he didn't want to explain apparition or admit that he had done 
something illegal.  Or maybe Dumbledore told him not to say anything 
about how he got there so he just vaguely said something about 
flying. 

> One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies 
a 
> broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. I 
> realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR hadn't 
> thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should certainly be 
able 
> to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. Maybe he accidentally let 
> his Apparition license expire...
 
OK, I have a bunch of reasons for this, too.

1 - There is a limit on how far a distance you can apparate over, 
isnt there?  It says so somewhere, I think.  Maybe in QTA?  Maybe 
northern Scotland to London is just too far.  

2 - Or maybe apparating makes Dumbledore seasick.  

3 - Or maybe it was a nice day for a flight in the country.

4- Actually all McG. says is that "He received an urgent owl from the 
MOM and flew off for London at once."  Maybe what she meant is that 
he flew as far as the edge of Hogwarts grounds and then apparated 
into London, since AS EVERYONE KNOWS it says in Hogwarts, A History 
that you cant apparate or disapparate in Hogwarts.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 15:54:05 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:54:05 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV revisited
In-Reply-To: <9aq053+fa9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq1it+er94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16077

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> > The third-person subjective part of the HP narration is probably 
> secondary to the third-person limited.

Agreed, Stacy.  Third-person limited, just like first-person, limits 
what the reader knows... and is great for building up suspense.  If 
you can only get into one person's head most of the time, then the 
only way to get at the motives of the other "players" is to have your 
viewpoint character observe their actions, listen to their 
conversations, and if they are sophisticated enough, to guess at 
what's going on inside other's heads.

The more curious the viewpoint character, the more the reader finds 
out.  And all viewpoint characters in third person limited (or first 
person) have to be curious about SOMETHING... otherwise, the story 
would be boring.

> My guess is that usually we 
> get Harry's opinion (perhaps this is because the narrator-character 
> agrees with it most of the time). Occasionally, though, I think our 
> narrator-character is more observant for the sake of the reader.

Sure, a good viewpoint character is usually a little more observant 
and even a tinge more perceptive than the other 
characters... "smarter than the average bear".  Again, this is for 
the reader's benefit, I think.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 16:05:07 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:05:07 -0000
Subject: Hermione in US/UK
In-Reply-To: <9apfmv+jcl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq27j+kpc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16078

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> another 
> passage that I'm 99% sure doesn't exist in the US edition:
 
>   'I think we'll be able to pull the door open,' said Ron, peering 
> over [Fluffy's] back.  'Want to go first, Hermione?'
>   'No, I don't!'
>   'All right.'  Ron gritted his teeth and stepped carefully over 
the 
> dog's legs.  He bent and pulled the ring of the trapdoor . . . etc. 
> (PS p. 200)
> 
> Could someone with a US edition confirm that this isn't in it?  I 
> could swear I've never read that before.
> 
No, sorry, its there.  I checked.  Exactly those words, too.  Page 
276 of the PB US edition.  Clearly, Amy has not read the HP books 
often enough.  Better hop to it, Amy, or we will throw you out of the 
League Of Obsessed Nitpickers (L.O.O.N.)


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 16:41:09 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:41:09 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
Message-ID: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16079

I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the books 
made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  First 
and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't go 
into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. edition 
suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences of 
expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors should 
have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is that 
those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their supreme 
ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to 
career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it with 
the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for repair 
or refitting".  The intended meaning of "to career", "to lurch wildly 
or unexpectedly from place to place", is not by any means an alternate
or secondary meaning of the verb "to careen".  I apologize for
ranting this way, but it really annoyed me the way the editors 
condescended to American readers of all ages.

Haggridd




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Apr  8 16:58:06 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:58:06 -0400
Subject: Quirrell
References: <9aq08b+ni1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD0989D.FAEEF753@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16080

Hey everybody....

Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. Heres the question:

Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his enemies."

But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? What's everyones opinion on this?

Jamieson


--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From bafoster at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 17:16:40 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:16:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: flying
References: <9aq1gq+lnut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD09CF7.D1137B44@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16081



joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 1 - I suppose a pink umbrella could be used like a broom or a
> carpet.  I rather like the image of Hagrid-as-Mary-Poppins flying
> along with his pink umbrella, except that the pink umbrella never
> gets opened, IIRC, probably because Hagrid's broken wand is hidden
> inside it.  But I suppose he could have spellotaped the wand to the
> inside of the umbrella so that it doesn't fall out.
> 

I *think* Hagrid's umbrella *handle* is actually his wand.  I can't
point to a specific canon reference, particularly since someone is
borrowing my copy of SS at the moment, but that was the definite
impression I got. :)

Barbara :)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From bafoster at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 17:19:51 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:19:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on  Hermione in US/UK)
References: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD09DB6.1E157A61@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16082

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.  I know that JKR has said
that she was so desperate to get the books published that she agreed to
some of the things like (most notably) the title change, and that the
subsequent books don't have as many changes, but I can't imagine why the
US versions couldn't have had a glossary at the back, or something, so
that people who didn't know the words could look them up.

I mean, god forbid US kids be expected to use their brains or anything. 
*rolls eyes*

Barbara :)

Haggridd wrote:
> 
> I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the books
> made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  First
> and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't go
> into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
> for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. edition
> suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences of
> expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors should
> have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is that
> those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their supreme
> ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to
> career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it with
> the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for repair
> or refitting".  The intended meaning of "to career", "to lurch wildly
> or unexpectedly from place to place", is not by any means an alternate
> or secondary meaning of the verb "to careen".  I apologize for
> ranting this way, but it really annoyed me the way the editors
> condescended to American readers of all ages.
> 
> Haggridd
> 
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 17:26:51 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:26:51 -0000
Subject: Quirrell
In-Reply-To: <3AD0989D.FAEEF753@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9aq70s+6kh5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16083

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everybody....
> 
> Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. 
Heres the question:
> 
> Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to 
die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his 
enemies."
> 
> But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? 
What's everyones opinion on this?
> 
> Jamieson
> 
> 
> --
> "....dream harder, dream true..."

I believe that there is enough ambiguity in Voldemort's abandonment of 
Quirrell to drive a truckload of fanfics through.  Good Luck!

Haggridd




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr  8 17:37:16 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:37:16 -0000
Subject: The Storming of Azkaban -- Voldy's first blunder?
In-Reply-To: <9aphrt+f38g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq7kc+f1db@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16084

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

> What's to stop Voldy from simply releasing his supporters from 
> Azkaban and having the Dementors give The Kiss to those who, like 
> Sirius, were unjustly imprisoned non-DEs?

Voldy, in his hubris, may think that he is able to do that, but I 
feel sure that anyone who allows Dementors to use any of their 
own judgement about whom to Kiss will find that the Dementors 
Kissed every person they could catch.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 17:41:39 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 17:41:39 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
Message-ID: <9aq7sj+ugfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16085

Hi everybody!
A few weeks ago I was posting constantly, but then I became incredibly 
busy at work (doing the yearbook for my students) and (sad to hear 
about other abandoned kittens, Naama) rescuing a tiny kitten I found 
under a car behind my school.  Anyway, I'm on vacation this week and 
have lots of time to analyze my dear Harry Potter for hours and 
hours...

Okay, I had a silly topic to ask about.  What is the funniest scene or 
line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?  I found the 
Ton-Tongue Toffee scene hilarious enough to re read several times the 
first time I sat down with GoF, but my mom thought it was mean and 
didn't like it much.  There are many lines that make me laugh out 
loud.  In fact, when Dumbledore, in SS, told Harry he once tasted a 
vomit flavored Bertie Bott's, that was when I officially fell in love 
with HP.

Any responses?

--Jenny fr




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 18:07:00 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:07:00 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq9c4+u460@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16086

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the 
books 
> made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  First 
> and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't go 
> into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
> for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. 
edition 
> suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences of 
> expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors should 
> have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is that 
> those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their supreme 
> ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to 
> career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it with 
> the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for 
repair 
> or refitting".  

Actually, "careen" also means "to lurch wildly or unexpectedly from 
place to place" in American English, just as in British English. 
Merriam-Webster's dictionary for that matter indicates the word as 
synonymous to the word CAREER.   Merriam-Webster simply cites the 
word "career" is not used as widely this side of The Big Pond, which 
is why I presume the word was changed. 

I figured out from CONTEXT what JKR meant, as although I purchased an 
American copy of the book from Borders,  the word 'career' was indeed 
intact.

Maybe the complaints did not fall on deaf ears after all. 

Indigo






From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 18:11:57 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:11:57 -0000
Subject: Quirrell
In-Reply-To: <3AD0989D.FAEEF753@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9aq9ld+f4j0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16087

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everybody....
> 
> Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. 
Heres the question:
> 
> Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to 
die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his 
enemies."
> 
> But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? 
What's everyones opinion on this?
> 
> Jamieson
> 
My impression is that Quirrell is indeed dead.

Voldemort's no longer occupying his body. 

And we didn't hear anything either later in the first book or any of 
the three since that Quirrell recovered from his injuries...or even 
that he hasn't and is enduring a miserable existence in some hovel, 
or Azkaban. 

Plus which, there is the whole "price of drinking unicorn blood" to 
be taken into consideration.  None was handy after Dumbledore rescued 
Harry.

So if Quirrell lived, it was "a cursed half life," if I remember my 
quote correctly.

But to me, more likely he is indeed dead. 

Indigo




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 18:16:17 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:16:17 -0000
Subject: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aq1gq+lnut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aq9th+r1gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16088

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> 4- Actually all McG. says is that "He received an urgent owl from 
the 
> MOM and flew off for London at once."  Maybe what she meant is that 
> he flew as far as the edge of Hogwarts grounds and then apparated 
> into London, since AS EVERYONE KNOWS it says in Hogwarts, A History 
> that you cant apparate or disapparate in Hogwarts.
> 
> 
>       ^
>      / \
>     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
>    /     \
> __/       \__
> 

I had never considered how Dumbledore got to London before, and then 
this recent debate developed, as to why he flew instead of 
apparated.  In the UK, and I thought that it was the same in the US, 
but I'm probably wrong, the expression "flew" is just that - an 
expression, a figure of speech and not fact.  ie.  "He flew out of 
there," is synonymous with, "he got out of there as quickly as 
possible."  It is not literal.  (Although, it can of course, be meant 
literally - I just wanted to point out the possibilities).

Catherine




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Apr  8 18:19:50 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:19:50 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV revisited
In-Reply-To: <9aq08b+ni1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEKDDGAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16089


>>>>>>>Ebony wrote:
However, we see this particular world through Harry's glasses, like
it or not.
If we can't trust his take on things, who can we trust?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Mwahahahaha!  Why should we trust Harry?  Maybe JKR is pulling a "Murder of
Roger Ackroyd" on us.  (Where the trusty narrator turns out to be the bad
guy).  Maybe Harry will defeat Voldemort, stop a minute and think, in finest
"Young Frankenstein" tradition, "THE WORLD IS MIIIIINE!!!!!"  He'll put the
Imperius Curse on all survivors, throw the Dursleys into Azkaban, keep a
running stream of witch bimbettes bouncing in and out of the Palace Bedroom
and finally make up for his rotten childhood and all the years that
simpleton Dumbledore tried to get him to be good and noble.

Harry, standing in front of the Mirror:  I am "The Major Pyre Star" ('Harry
James Potter' anagram - not quite so catchy as "Lord Voldemort".... errr,
how about "Majesty, Rather Pro".... "Thy Rare Major Pest"... naaah, never
mind, just call me "Master")...


SML






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 18:22:03 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <9aq7sj+ugfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010408182203.26688.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16090

> What is the funniest scene or 
> line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?  

The entire section in GoF when the Weasleys take Harry to the World
Cup game from the time they "arrive" in the fireplace to leaving the
Dursleys.


> I found the Ton-Tongue Toffee scene hilarious enough to re read 
> several times the first time I sat down with GoF, but my mom 
> thought it was mean and  didn't like it much.  

I agree with your mom.  I was quite surprised at that part because it
really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
Dudley a sympathetic character.  It really jarred on me and
contributes to the feeling I have that GoF would have benefited from
one more rigorous edit by JKR.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 18:22:04 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:22:04 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqa8c+60qk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16091

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the 
books 
> made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  First 
> and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't go 
> into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
> for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. 
edition 
> suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences of 
> expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors should 
> have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is that 
> those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their supreme 
> ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to 
> career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it with 
> the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for 
repair 
> or refitting".  The intended meaning of "to career", "to lurch 
wildly 
> or unexpectedly from place to place", is not by any means an 
alternate
> or secondary meaning of the verb "to careen".  I apologize for
> ranting this way, but it really annoyed me the way the editors 
> condescended to American readers of all ages.
> 
> Haggridd

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say.  It is condescending, 
inaccurate AND not what JKR wrote in the first place.  Going back to 
Amy's original post - I'm sorry, but I prefer the "timidly."  It was 
obviously there for a purpose, and the second sentence is 
meaningless.  The context of the UK edition is much better.  BTW, I'm 
glad also that JKR put her foot down about "mom" and "mum" - the 
children are English.  Why on earth would they say "mom" ???

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 18:30:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:30:09 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <9aq7sj+ugfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqanh+2n5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16092

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> A few weeks ago I was posting constantly, but then I became 
incredibly 
> busy at work (doing the yearbook for my students) and (sad to hear 
> about other abandoned kittens, Naama) rescuing a tiny kitten I 
found 
> under a car behind my school.  Anyway, I'm on vacation this week 
and 
> have lots of time to analyze my dear Harry Potter for hours and 
> hours...
> 
> Okay, I had a silly topic to ask about.  What is the funniest scene 
or 
> line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?  I found the 
> Ton-Tongue Toffee scene hilarious enough to re read several times 
the 
> first time I sat down with GoF, but my mom thought it was mean and 
> didn't like it much.  There are many lines that make me laugh out 
> loud.  In fact, when Dumbledore, in SS, told Harry he once tasted a 
> vomit flavored Bertie Bott's, that was when I officially fell in 
love 
> with HP.
> 
> Any responses?
> 
> --Jenny fr

it's already been discussed ad infinitum last week, but at the moment 
(and this changes regularly) my favourite is:

"What's that?" said Ron, pointing at a large dish of some sort of 
shellfish stew that stood beside a large steak-and-kidney pudding.
"Bouillabaise," said Hermione.
"Bless you, said Ron.
"It's French," said Hermione,"I had it on holiday, summer before 
last, it's very nice."
"I'll take your word for it,"said Ron, helping himself to black 
pudding."

It's not just the "bless you" it's the whole idea that Ron prefers 
black pudding (which is mainly pig's blood) to a fish soup.

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 18:35:17 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:35:17 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <20010408182203.26688.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9aqb15+jm4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16093

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > What is the funniest scene or 
> > line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?  
> 
> The entire section in GoF when the Weasleys take Harry to the World
> Cup game from the time they "arrive" in the fireplace to leaving the
> Dursleys.
> 
> 
> > I found the Ton-Tongue Toffee scene hilarious enough to re read 
> > several times the first time I sat down with GoF, but my mom 
> > thought it was mean and  didn't like it much.  
> 
> I agree with your mom.  I was quite surprised at that part because 
it
> really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
> Dudley a sympathetic character.  It really jarred on me and
> contributes to the feeling I have that GoF would have benefited from
> one more rigorous edit by JKR.
> 
I didn't find Fred and George unsympathetic at all.  They are fond of 
Harry, and know exactly how Dudley has treated him - he is a bully, a 
coward, and truly a nasty piece of work, which is why they waited for 
someone "deserving" to test it on.  I know, there is a fine line 
between gentle, friendly teasing/practical joking and the more 
sinister maliciousness which becomes bullying. IMO, Fred and George, 
get close, but never ever cross that line.

Catherine




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 18:44:55 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:44:55 -0000
Subject: Quirrell
In-Reply-To: <3AD0989D.FAEEF753@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9aqbj7+tf30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16094

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everybody....
> 
> Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. 
Heres the question:
> 
> Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to 
die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his 
enemies."
> 
> But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? 
What's everyones opinion on this?
> 
> Jamieson
> 


"I [Voldemort] sometimes inhabited animals - snakes, of course, being 
my preference - but I was little better off inside them than as pure 
spirit, for their bodies were ill-adapted to perform magic ... and my 
possession of them shortened their lives; none of them lasted 
long...". (GoF UK, p. 567)

Kind of chimes in with the "left Quirrel to die", doesn't it?

Naama




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 18:47:24 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:47:24 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aq9c4+u460@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqbns+lgec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16095

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the 
> books 
> > made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> > including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  
First 
> > and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't 
go 
> > into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
> > for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. 
> edition 
> > suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences 
of 
> > expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors 
should 
> > have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is 
that 
> > those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their 
supreme 
> > ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to 
> > career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it 
with 
> > the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for 
> repair 
> > or refitting".  
> 
> Actually, "careen" also means "to lurch wildly or unexpectedly from 
> place to place" in American English, just as in British English. 
> Merriam-Webster's dictionary for that matter indicates the word as 
> synonymous to the word CAREER.   Merriam-Webster simply cites the 
> word "career" is not used as widely this side of The Big Pond, which 
> is why I presume the word was changed. 
> 
> I figured out from CONTEXT what JKR meant, as although I purchased 
an 
> American copy of the book from Borders,  the word 'career' was 
indeed 
> intact.
> 
> Maybe the complaints did not fall on deaf ears after all. 
> 
> Indigo

In my hardcover edition of the U.S. book I have "careen".  I am 
delighted that the editors corrected this in later printings.  I am 
saddened, however, that the Merriam-Webster people have legitimized a 
mistake, merely because it has become an-all-too-common error.  I 
differ with their acceptance of this new meaning for what had been a 
perfectly nice nautical tern. I realize that the language is evolving, 
but this is not evolution, it is capitulation to ignorance.

Haggridd
p.s. I also try not to split my infinitives, even though this solecism 
of grammar has become somewhat acceptable.  H.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  8 19:01:09 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:01:09 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <20010408182203.26688.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9aq7sj+ugfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010408115028.031d58d0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16096

At 11:22 AM 4/8/01 -0700, Magda Grantwich wrote:
>I agree with your mom.  I was quite surprised at that part because it
>really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
>Dudley a sympathetic character.

How does getting a miniscule bit of commupance make him
sympathetic?  Did Malfoy getting turned into a ferret make
*him* sympathetic??  I hate to say it, but maybe JKR needs
to have Dudley bully and beat up on Harry a bit(*), lest we start
*liking* the rotten little git.

                                -- Dave

* Harry needn't actually get hurt -- Just before Dudley throws
his first punch, we hear a gruff voice bellow, "I don't think so, laddie!"
and Harry meets Dudley, the Amazing Bouncing Aardvark.





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 19:24:25 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:24:25 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010408115028.031d58d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9aqdt9+qjlh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16097

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 11:22 AM 4/8/01 -0700, Magda Grantwich wrote:
> >I agree with your mom.  I was quite surprised at that part because 
it
> >really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
> >Dudley a sympathetic character.
> 
> How does getting a miniscule bit of commupance make him
> sympathetic?  Did Malfoy getting turned into a ferret make
> *him* sympathetic??  I hate to say it, but maybe JKR needs
> to have Dudley bully and beat up on Harry a bit(*), lest we start
> *liking* the rotten little git.
> 
>                                 -- Dave
> 
> * Harry needn't actually get hurt -- Just before Dudley throws
> his first punch, we hear a gruff voice bellow, "I don't think so, 
laddie!"
> and Harry meets Dudley, the Amazing Bouncing Aardvark.


I'm with the majority.

I think one magical prank that caused Dudley no permanent physical 
damage (and he was already emotionally scarred by Hagrid's having 
given him a pig tail) as compared to 11 (and perhaps less infrequent 
over 12, 13 and 14th) years of bullying and meanness from spoiled 
Dudley is just evening the score a little bit.

However, one of the funniest scenes. Let me think. My favourites 
change often too.

Ah, I know.

Ron made a cough that sounded suspiciously like "Lockhart!" 

and 

Myrtle being a peeping Tomette (Thomasina?) for the Hogwarts 
Champions in the Prefects' Bathroom.






From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr  8 19:28:58 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:28:58 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aqbns+lgec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqe5q+n5bd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16098

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > > I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the 
> > books 
> > > made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> > > including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  
> First 
> > > and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I 
won't 
> go 
> > > into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the 
search
> > > for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. 
> > edition 
> > > suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The 
differences 
> of 
> > > expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors 
> should 
> > > have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is 
> that 
> > > those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their 
> supreme 
> > > ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The 
verb "to 
> > > career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it 
> with 
> > > the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for 
> > repair 
> > > or refitting".  
> > 
> > Actually, "careen" also means "to lurch wildly or unexpectedly 
from 
> > place to place" in American English, just as in British English. 
> > Merriam-Webster's dictionary for that matter indicates the word 
as 
> > synonymous to the word CAREER.   Merriam-Webster simply cites the 
> > word "career" is not used as widely this side of The Big Pond, 
which 
> > is why I presume the word was changed. 
> > 
> > I figured out from CONTEXT what JKR meant, as although I 
purchased 
> an 
> > American copy of the book from Borders,  the word 'career' was 
> indeed 
> > intact.
> > 
> > Maybe the complaints did not fall on deaf ears after all. 
> > 
> > Indigo
> 
> In my hardcover edition of the U.S. book I have "careen".  I am 
> delighted that the editors corrected this in later printings.  I am 
> saddened, however, that the Merriam-Webster people have legitimized 
a 
> mistake, merely because it has become an-all-too-common error.  I 
> differ with their acceptance of this new meaning for what had been 
a 
> perfectly nice nautical tern. I realize that the language is 
evolving, 
> but this is not evolution, it is capitulation to ignorance.
> 
Unfortunately it's also the nature of the beast.  The US and the UK 
are too far away for us to maintain each other's pronunciations.  
This is just "one of those things," however regrettable.

I'm just glad "WHASSUP!" is not in Merriam-Webster yet, and that 
people make fun of the bad translation from whence comes "All Your 
Base are Belong to Us." 

> Haggridd
> p.s. I also try not to split my infinitives, even though this 
solecism  of grammar has become somewhat acceptable.  H.

As has "starting a sentence with the word 'And'."

But to get back on topic:  

Hermione doesn't strike me as the timid type, even if she was faced 
up with Sirius Black.  She may not have pegged him as an innocent, 
but she definitely could tell he wasn't entirely what he seemed. 

She isn't timid to Snape, and he's a hardcase.

She was timid around Lockhart, but she had a crush on him like many 
witch-girls.

She wasn't even timid around Krum, who was being all bashful around 
her.


Indigo





From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr  8 19:38:13 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:38:13 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010408115028.031d58d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9aqen5+rj91@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16099

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
 
> * Harry needn't actually get hurt -- Just before Dudley throws
> his first punch, we hear a gruff voice bellow, "I don't think so, 
laddie!"
> and Harry meets Dudley, the Amazing Bouncing Aardvark.

LOL!! I creased up with laughter just thinking about it! That is 
definitely something I would like to see.

I think there are lots of funny moments in the HP books, the one that 
springs to mind right now is when Neville's Boggart turned into Snape 
in drag. Definitely comeuppance, even if I am a self-cofessed 
Snapefan!

Unrelevant part here...
A while ago I posted something about Snape being a raven (and was 
ripped for it, but I'm still clinging to my wobbly little branch!). 
Well, in today's Mail (British Paper) there is an article about a 
Russian soldier and it refers to him as: "a 'raven' ~ a spy trained 
to seduce well-placed military and civilian women with access to 
secrets."
In an attempt to support my very thin branch I have probably just 
given evidence the opposite way. I may like him, but I can't see him 
having the ability to seduce anyone, he just does not have the looks. 
This should really have gone in a separate post, sorry. ::grins 
sheepishly::

Sarah 






From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sun Apr  8 19:48:59 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:48:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aq9th+r1gd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104081537380.7190-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16100

On Sun, 8 Apr 2001 catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> I had never considered how Dumbledore got to London before, and then 
> this recent debate developed, as to why he flew instead of 
> apparated.  In the UK, and I thought that it was the same in the US, 
> but I'm probably wrong, the expression "flew" is just that - an 
> expression, a figure of speech and not fact.  ie.  "He flew out of 
> there," is synonymous with, "he got out of there as quickly as 
> possible."  It is not literal.  (Although, it can of course, be meant 
> literally - I just wanted to point out the possibilities).

In ordinary speech or in a book of a non-fantasy genre, the most natural
way to take the expression would be indeed as a metaphor for the great
speed with which Dumbledore travelled.  But as HP is fantasy (or scifi,
or whatever we decided in the genre debate *g*), it is extremely
*un*natural to take the expression as metaphorical.  It would be rather
poor writing to use a metaphor that could be confused with an actual
description of events; in high fantasy, to take a different example, you
should never describe a character as elven, because your readers will
take you literally -- your mistake, not theirs.  JKR, IMO, is too good a
writer to commit such an error.

I think we have to take the verb 'fly' literally.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 19:54:16 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010408115028.031d58d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010408195416.5256.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16101

--- Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> How does getting a miniscule bit of commupance make
> him
> sympathetic?  Did Malfoy getting turned into a
> ferret make
> *him* sympathetic??  I hate to say it, but maybe JKR
> needs
> to have Dudley bully and beat up on Harry a bit(*),
> lest we start
> *liking* the rotten little git.

Which brings me to *my* favorite scene.  Malfoy the
Amazing Bouncing Ferret. <sigh> How could you *not*
love Mad-Eye for that, even if he does turn out to be
a psychopathic killer?


Andrea II 


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 20:04:57 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:04:57 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aqe5q+n5bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqg99+i21i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16102

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> 
wrote:
> > > > I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the 
> > > books 
> > > > made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
> > > > including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  
> > First 
> > > > and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I 
> won't 
> > go 
> > > > into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the 
> search
> > > > for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. 
> > > edition 
> > > > suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The 
> differences 
> > of 
> > > > expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors 
> > should 
> > > > have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is 
> > that 
> > > > those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their 
> > supreme 
> > > > ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The 
> verb "to 
> > > > career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it 
> > with 
> > > > the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for 
> > > repair 
> > > > or refitting".  
> > > 
> > > Actually, "careen" also means "to lurch wildly or unexpectedly 
> from 
> > > place to place" in American English, just as in British English. 
> > > Merriam-Webster's dictionary for that matter indicates the word 
> as 
> > > synonymous to the word CAREER.   Merriam-Webster simply cites 
the 
> > > word "career" is not used as widely this side of The Big Pond, 
> which 
> > > is why I presume the word was changed. 
> > > 
> > > I figured out from CONTEXT what JKR meant, as although I 
> purchased 
> > an 
> > > American copy of the book from Borders,  the word 'career' was 
> > indeed 
> > > intact.
> > > 
> > > Maybe the complaints did not fall on deaf ears after all. 
> > > 
> > > Indigo
> > 
> > In my hardcover edition of the U.S. book I have "careen".  I am 
> > delighted that the editors corrected this in later printings.  I 
am 
> > saddened, however, that the Merriam-Webster people have 
legitimized 
> a 
> > mistake, merely because it has become an-all-too-common error.  I 
> > differ with their acceptance of this new meaning for what had been 
> a 
> > perfectly nice nautical tern. I realize that the language is 
> evolving, 
> > but this is not evolution, it is capitulation to ignorance.
> > 
> Unfortunately it's also the nature of the beast.  The US and the UK 
> are too far away for us to maintain each other's pronunciations.  
> This is just "one of those things," however regrettable.
> 
> I'm just glad "WHASSUP!" is not in Merriam-Webster yet, and that 
> people make fun of the bad translation from whence comes "All Your 
> Base are Belong to Us." 
> 
> > Haggridd
> > p.s. I also try not to split my infinitives, even though this 
> solecism  of grammar has become somewhat acceptable.  H.
> 
> As has "starting a sentence with the word 'And'."
> 
> But to get back on topic:  
> 
> Hermione doesn't strike me as the timid type, even if she was faced 
> up with Sirius Black.  She may not have pegged him as an innocent, 
> but she definitely could tell he wasn't entirely what he seemed. 
> 
> She isn't timid to Snape, and he's a hardcase.
> 
> She was timid around Lockhart, but she had a crush on him like many 
> witch-girls.
> 
> She wasn't even timid around Krum, who was being all bashful around 
> her.
> 
> 
> Indigo

Hermione isn't timid, because she is too intellectually curious 
to waste time on that emotion.  She also knows that she will be able 
to find in the library whatever she needs in order to prevail.

Beginning a sentence with "and" may have passed into common usage, but 
ending a sentence with a preposition can still get you talked about 
behind your back. *grin*

Haggridd




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Apr  8 19:25:24 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 15:25:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Authority and rule-breaking or Why does Snape hate  Harry?
References: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD0BB24.B06D69D1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16103

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
 
(much more than this in her excellent post, but rather than quote
the whole thing I'm just excerpting a "reminder" snippet)

> Snape is a man who is obsessed with authority.
> Its what keeps him sane and what keeps him going. Its where he gets
> his self-esteem from. Its what provides him his place in the world.

This is a =wonderful= insight, right on the money, I think.

And it made me realize (now, please don't anyone take this the
wrong way, I'll explain the metaphor in a minute), "My God, Snape
really =is= Jewish!"  Or to be more precise, Snape is a
"Pharisee."  He's the kind of person you're always running into
in the Gospels, saying, "What kind of Messiah is this, who keeps
breaking the Sabbath and a bunch of other rules and hanging out
with tax collectors and sinners?"

Now, make no mistake:  the Pharisees as a sect were =necessary=
when they first emerged (after the Exile).  It was their strict
rule-following that kept the Jewish people from dissolving and
disappearing into the rest of the cultural mishmash that
surrounded them.  I can easily see the same attitude being
necessary for the young Snape to keep him from dissolving into .
. . what?  Whatever kind of chaos may have surrounded him in his
childhood and early youth, on which we can only speculate at the
moment.  But it's all too easy for this sort of attitude to
become so fossilized that one can't see beyond it.

The rift between Snape and the Potters (senior and junior) is the
rift between the "children of legality" and the "children of
grace," between people who follow rules and people who find
themselves performing spontaneous acts of love and valor (like
befriending a werewolf or facing down the Big V. over the Mirror
of Erised).

But the thing about the Law (I'm speaking from a Christian
perspective here, of course) is that, while it is good in itself,
=it can't save you.=  Only the acceptance of grace can do that. 
And I wonder if Our Severus will one day find himself facing that
particular choice.

Hey, what do you want, it's Sunday...


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 20:16:14 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:16:14 -0000
Subject: something fun to talk about
In-Reply-To: <9aq7sj+ugfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqgue+qmlb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16104

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> A few weeks ago I was posting constantly, but then I became 
incredibly 
> busy at work (doing the yearbook for my students) and (sad to hear 
> about other abandoned kittens, Naama) rescuing a tiny kitten I found 
> under a car behind my school.  Anyway, I'm on vacation this week and 
> have lots of time to analyze my dear Harry Potter for hours and 
> hours...
> 
> Okay, I had a silly topic to ask about.  What is the funniest scene 
or 
> line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?  I found the 
> Ton-Tongue Toffee scene hilarious enough to re read several times 
the 
> first time I sat down with GoF, but my mom thought it was mean and 
> didn't like it much.  There are many lines that make me laugh out 
> loud.  In fact, when Dumbledore, in SS, told Harry he once tasted a 
> vomit flavored Bertie Bott's, that was when I officially fell in 
love 
> with HP.
> 
> Any responses?
> 
> --Jenny fr

I rather like Dumbledore's many humerous asides, like when he mentions 
his scar shaped like the London underground, or the story about the 
"Chamber of chamberpots", or the implied transgressions of his brother 
Alberforth.  JKR has made Dumbledore so unpredictable in this, as in 
many ways.

Haggridd




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 21:07:20 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:07:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin and the Marauder's Map
Message-ID: <ca.1368524e.28022d08@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16105

In a message dated 3/30/01 3:08:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pandora_lily at yahoo.com writes:


> Any theories?  Again, I hope
> this wasn't already covered.
> 

My guess would be because they were on a different time plane. 

Ocean Star


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 21:12:58 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:12:58 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...
Message-ID: <74.957704f.28022e5a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16106

In a message dated 3/30/01 4:42:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com writes:


> And if you'll grant that there *are* such
> things as radically evil books (Mein Kampf, for instance), would it not be
> appropriate to take a radical stand against them?
> 

_Mein Kampf_, while being disturbing at best, is an important historical 
document. I think it should be read just to ensure that we know how to deal 
with the next madman that comes along.

Just my 2 cents...

Ocean Star


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr  8 21:16:15 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 21:16:15 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking or Why does Snape hate Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aqkev+g16q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16107

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
<snip>
>> Snape is a man who is obsessed with authority. 
> It?s what keeps him sane and what keeps him going. It?s where he  
>  gets his self-esteem from. It?s what provides him his place in the 
>  world. 
> 
> I also think that was what impressed him about Voldemort and what 
>  made him join the DE. Their inner organisation is based on 
> hierarchy, on orders and obedience, and for someone looking for 
> respect and recognition at all costs, that sort of system is very 
> inviting (just a side thought - that?s exactly why I think Percy 
> Weasley will go over to the dark side, too).
> 
> I think it is a very important part of his character that he needs 
> this set of well-defined rules to keep him going. He?s a typical 
> example of a person who will always carry things to extremes, be it 
> the good cause or the evil cause, because only extreme convictions 
> and extreme actions will comply with the principles they have set 
> for themselves.<<

Anyone in the Snapefans eGroup has already heard me discuss on this 
topic. :)

SNAPE AND AUTHORITY

I agree. Snape is completely ruled by order and authority; I've seen 
some people with the idea that Severus actually has no real desire 
for power; that he joined the DEs for the explicit reason of becoming 
a spy for Dumbledore. I personally can't see this view at all; I 
think Snape is very much obsessed with power-- not like Voldemort's 
power, but the authority power, to enforce rules and order, two 
things which he highly values in himself and others.

I concur that this madness with order and structure probably did 
encourage him to join with the DEs; I imagine that the sort of 
heirarchical appeal of Voldemort's circle (as well as the Dark Arts; 
you can't deny that Severus was probably very, very deep into the 
Dark Arts already, considering he knew so much about curses and hexes 
when he was at the tender age of 11) was what led him to enter as a 
DE. And yes, it will be Percy's downfall as well, IMO.  

Severus is a man who will not tolerate defiance of his authority. He 
also dislikes seeing weakness in others who have authority, which 
would explain his polite critisism of Dumbledore when he feels that 
the "Headmaster" is being to lenient. I think that certain weakness 
is another characteristic that Snape severly denounces and cannot 
tolerate, in himself and in others. 

>> James, with his actions and his successes, upset Snape?s whole 
> world.
> 
> And Harry does just the same.<<

It is my belief that he sees the defiance of authority that so marked 
James' (and now Harry's) character as a type of weakness; he views it 
as weak and dishonorable of a person to not show proper respect to 
authority, and even worse when the person is still rewarded for their 
abject disregard for the rules which so govern Severus' life. It does 
indeed "upset Snape's whole world", especially in Harry's case, since 
the authority Harry defies is Snape himself. Thus, Harry is just 
that "nasty little boy" who has no concern for the rules that 
*should* be obeyed.

However, I also have another personal and completely unfounded reason 
for Snape's utter loathing of Harry, but that is for another time and 
another post. :)

Lyda






From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun Apr  8 21:26:25 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:26:25 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore ...
Message-ID: <e3.12ee7ac5.28023181@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16108

In a message dated 3/30/01 12:33:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes:


> (I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's 
> mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a 
> 

The Patil twins are in two different houses. Couldn't Dumbledore and Voldy's 
mum be in the same boat?

Ocean Star


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr  8 21:44:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:44:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
References: <e3.12ee7ac5.28023181@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c0c075$23e216a0$8614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16109


Is there such a thing in HPFGU, as a strange thought? Someone in HPFGU had a
strange thought. Isn't that an oxymoron?

Doreen, who thinks that would be the same thing as Minnesota having a good
driver
*********************
Ocean Star wrote:
The Patil twins are in two different houses. Couldn't Dumbledore and Voldy's
mum be in the same boat?






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Apr  8 22:31:40 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 22:31:40 -0000
Subject: Quirrell
In-Reply-To: <3AD0989D.FAEEF753@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9aqosc+82hl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16110

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everybody....
> 
> Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. 
Heres the question:
> 
> Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to 
die. He shows just as little mercy to his followers as to his 
enemies."
> 
> But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? 
What's everyones opinion on this?
> 

Voldy's speech to the Death-Eaters in GoF, Chap. 33 settles the 
question:  "The servant (i.e., Quirrell) died when I left his body.."

   - CMC




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Apr  8 23:26:22 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:26:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
References: <20010408112506.50161.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD0F39E.DCAAD06@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16111



Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Real-To:  Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
>
> >Failing that, Headmaster Malfoy??
> >-- Dave
>
> Wouldn't that be too much like a real job?  And aren't the Malfoys
> above taking real jobs?  A bit of a social comedown.
>

I don't understand why people are so convinced that Lucius Malfoy doesn't have a "job" of some sort, either running a few corporations (the Daily Prophet itself in my universe), writing didactic books published by little radical publishing
houses, etc. No, I don't think he heads up any department at the Ministry, and if he had any job within the government (at elast after age 30) other than Ambassador, I'd be shocked, but Headmaster, Publisher, CEO, Grandson of a Smuggler (oh,
wait, no that was JFK...) ....all completely probable.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 23:47:34 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 23:47:34 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ton tongue toffee (was something fun to talk about)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F15i0me3abTd9Q00003cdd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16112

Yeah, and besides, they just left the toffee lying around.  They didn't 
*make* him eat it.


>it really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
> > Dudley a sympathetic character.  It really jarred on me and
> > contributes to the feeling I have that GoF would have benefited from
> > one more rigorous edit by JKR.
> >
>I didn't find Fred and George unsympathetic at all.  They are fond of
>Harry, and know exactly how Dudley has treated him - he is a bully, a
>coward, and truly a nasty piece of work, which is why they waited for
>someone "deserving" to test it on.  I know, there is a fine line
>between gentle, friendly teasing/practical joking and the more
>sinister maliciousness which becomes bullying. IMO, Fred and George,
>get close, but never ever cross that line.
>
>Catherine
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  8 23:59:14 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 23:59:14 -0000
Subject: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <3AD0F39E.DCAAD06@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9aqu0i+t524@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16113

Doesn't Rowling say in a number of places that Malfoy as a high position in the MoM? Draco doesn't miss a chance to rub this in when he heckles Ron. 'My father is Senior and associates with the important people in the ministry; Your father is junior <snort> and runs an unimportant department... '

I always had the impression that Lucius very skillfully managed to manuever is way into an important position in the Ministry, hence his ability to wield influence over people. It is not about money, but about pride, position, and respectability. His conversation with his son is CoS indicates that he DOES indeed expect Draco to do something with himself. (Though I suspect that Art School or professional bongo playing are not what he as in mind....)

People like Lucius, who value rank and position, are often very hardworking (even workaholics), and greatly skilled at working the system-- but have strong ideas about what kind of work enhances their position, versus that which is beneath them. It is not about money.

I cannot picture him as headmaster-- he is not an educator-- but I think he will be back as one of the governors, due to his influence over Fudge, and I suspect that life for muggle students is about to become more perilous....


--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Real-To:  Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...>
> >
> > >Failing that, Headmaster Malfoy??
> > >-- Dave
> >
> > Wouldn't that be too much like a real job?  And aren't the Malfoys
> > above taking real jobs?  A bit of a social comedown.
> >
> 
> I don't understand why people are so convinced that Lucius Malfoy doesn't have a "job" of some sort, either running a few corporations (the Daily Prophet itself in my universe), writing didactic books published by little radical publishing
> houses, etc. No, I don't think he heads up any department at the Ministry, and if he had any job within the government (at elast after age 30) other than Ambassador, I'd be shocked, but Headmaster, Publisher, CEO, Grandson of a Smuggler (oh,
> wait, no that was JFK...) ....all completely probable.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Apr  8 23:57:19 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:57:19 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
References: <9aqu0i+t524@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD0FADF.4F809AC5@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16114



rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:

> Real-To:  rainy_lilac at yahoo.com
>
> Doesn't Rowling say in a number of places that Malfoy as a high position in the MoM? Draco doesn't miss a chance to rub this in when he heckles Ron. 'My father is Senior and associates with the important people in the ministry; Your father is junior <snort> and runs an unimportant department... '

No, she doesn't say it anywhere.
The bit you're thinking of is on the train in GoF - "But then, Fathers always associated with the top people at the Ministry. . . . Maybe your fathers too junior to know about it, Weasley. . . yes. . . they probably dont talk about important stuff in front of him. . . .

Associated with does not = "worked with" - in fact, it means quite the opposite. It means socialized with, worked on committees with...not "has senior rank over..."

>
> People like Lucius, who value rank and position, are often very hardworking (even workaholics), and greatly skilled at working the system-- but have strong ideas about what kind of work enhances their position, versus that which is beneath them. It is not about money.

Oh, absolutely!




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 00:13:14 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 00:13:14 -0000
Subject: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <3AD0FADF.4F809AC5@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9aquqq+lq1e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16115


Arrrghhhh... are you sure? Not even in Cos? Maybe she says he is influential in the ministry rather than having an actual position, I dunno... I will look for this... But I always took that to mean that he had a real position there, and that people had no choice but to listen to him..

I just cant picture him playing golf all day. He is just too obsessed. He has an in somewhere, and it isnt respectable for a man to have NO profession.  

I imagine him having a high position, but keeping bankers hours.

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> 
> > Real-To:  rainy_lilac at y...
> >
> > Doesn't Rowling say in a number of places that Malfoy as a high position in the MoM? Draco doesn't miss a chance to rub this in when he heckles Ron. 'My father is Senior and associates with the important people in the ministry; Your father is junior <snort> and runs an unimportant department... '
> 
> No, she doesn't say it anywhere.
> The bit you're thinking of is on the train in GoF - "But then, Father's always associated with the top people at the Ministry. . . . Maybe your father's too junior to know about it, Weasley. . . yes. . . they probably don't talk about important stuff in front of him. . . ."
> 
> Associated with does not = "worked with" - in fact, it means quite the opposite. It means socialized with, worked on committees with...not "has senior rank over..."
> 
> >
> > People like Lucius, who value rank and position, are often very hardworking (even workaholics), and greatly skilled at working the system-- but have strong ideas about what kind of work enhances their position, versus that which is beneath them. It is not about money.
> 
> Oh, absolutely!




From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 00:18:10 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:18:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ton tongue toffee (was something fun to talk about)
References: <LAW2-F15i0me3abTd9Q00003cdd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE40brhVrpf0JB9ApT200000e0f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16116

Gred and Forge (yes, I did that on purpose) are just giving Dudley what he deserves.  They seem to be really immature, but if you look beyond the written word, you'll see that they are ingenious and really deep.  

~Adrienne~

Don't throw me out because this is short!  The peep before me said it so well. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morag Traynor 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: ton tongue toffee (was something fun to talk about)


  Yeah, and besides, they just left the toffee lying around.  They didn't 
  *make* him eat it.


  >it really shows George and Fred in a most unfavourable light and makes
  > > Dudley a sympathetic character.  It really jarred on me and
  > > contributes to the feeling I have that GoF would have benefited from
  > > one more rigorous edit by JKR.
  > >
  >I didn't find Fred and George unsympathetic at all.  They are fond of
  >Harry, and know exactly how Dudley has treated him - he is a bully, a
  >coward, and truly a nasty piece of work, which is why they waited for
  >someone "deserving" to test it on.  I know, there is a fine line
  >between gentle, friendly teasing/practical joking and the more
  >sinister maliciousness which becomes bullying. IMO, Fred and George,
  >get close, but never ever cross that line.
  >
  >Catherine
  >

  _________________________________________________________________________
  Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Apr  9 00:15:06 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:15:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
References: <9aquqq+lq1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD0FF0A.BC250357@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16117



rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:

> Real-To:  rainy_lilac at yahoo.com
>
> Arrrghhhh... are you sure? Not even in Cos? Maybe she says he is influential in the ministry rather than having an actual position, I dunno... I will look for this... But I always took that to mean that he had a real position there, and that people had no choice but to listen to him..

In CoS ""You have heard, of course, that the Ministry is conducting more
raids," said Mr. Malfoy, taking a roll of parchment from his inside
pocket and unraveling it for Mr. Borgin to read. "I have a few - ah -
items at home that might embarrass me, if the Ministry were to call...
The name Malfoy still commands a
certain respect, yet the Ministry grows ever more meddlesome."

is what made me think he wasn't *at* the Ministry-

Then Draco said to Harry & Ron, as Crabbe & Goyle, "You
know the Ministry of Magic raided our manor last week?"

And then, in Hagrid's hut, Lucius says:
"The appointment - or suspension - of the headmaster is a matter for
the governors, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy smoothly. "And as
Dumbledore has failed to stop these attacks -"
Since he just uses his last name, not Mr or Minister, it seems like he's "outside" the control of the ministry.

So I let him run the Daily Prophet. He has fun there....and plays wizarding golf in the snow in wintertimes when those blasted muggles can't get onto the courses up on the north sea in scotland - the only time for real wizards to play....





From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 00:31:45 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:31:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
References: <e3.12ee7ac5.28023181@aol.com> <00df01c0c075$23e216a0$8614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <OE44aSj3U20qjBGnM3b00000d3c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16118

What is HPFGU?  Harry Potter For Grown Ups?  If so, Why is that strange?  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 4:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought ...



  Is there such a thing in HPFGU, as a strange thought? Someone in HPFGU had a
  strange thought. Isn't that an oxymoron?

  Doreen, who thinks that would be the same thing as Minnesota having a good
  driver
  *********************
  Ocean Star wrote:
  The Patil twins are in two different houses. Couldn't Dumbledore and Voldy's
  mum be in the same boat?




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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 00:34:16 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 00:34:16 -0000
Subject: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <3AD0FADF.4F809AC5@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9ar028+32mf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16119


Hmmmm... Once upon a time, I did development research at harvard (specifically researching  very wealthy alums who might give money to te school).

One thing that often struck me was how so many of the people I had to research had long resumes of "accomplishments"-- which really existed mainly because they had, say, enough money to buy their own radio station, or whatever. (The Ketchup Heiress was the one who really stuck in my mind.... Accomplishments that required a life of leisure...Dont get me started!)

A half million dollar donation entitled the donor to postions on a variety of committees which, far from being decorative, actually influenced the course of the University. Almost all of the top donors had long long lists of all the many committees they had served on, and all of the places were they had power. So many that I really had to wonder how much actual WORK was involved in all this influencing!

But all of them had more than money going for them-- they all had something else to show for themselves. Status required at least te illusion of accomplishment. (Buy the Daily Prophet!!) I cant get away from the idea that there must be more to Lucius than just money and brie cheese. 

He is a Slytherin, and ambitious, right?

No bongos for Draco....

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> 
> > Real-To:  rainy_lilac at y...
> >
> > Doesn't Rowling say in a number of places that Malfoy as a high position in the MoM? Draco doesn't miss a chance to rub this in when he heckles Ron. 'My father is Senior and associates with the important people in the ministry; Your father is junior <snort> and runs an unimportant department... '
> 
> No, she doesn't say it anywhere.
> The bit you're thinking of is on the train in GoF - "But then, Father's always associated with the top people at the Ministry. . . . Maybe your father's too junior to know about it, Weasley. . . yes. . . they probably don't talk about important stuff in front of him. . . ."
> 
> Associated with does not = "worked with" - in fact, it means quite the opposite. It means socialized with, worked on committees with...not "has senior rank over..."
> 
> >
> > People like Lucius, who value rank and position, are often very hardworking (even workaholics), and greatly skilled at working the system-- but have strong ideas about what kind of work enhances their position, versus that which is beneath them. It is not about money.
> 
> Oh, absolutely!




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 00:41:24 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 00:41:24 -0000
Subject: The Present for Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <3AD0FF0A.BC250357@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9ar0fk+q0de@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16120


Wizard golf!! In the snow!! ROFL!

But only with MoM officials and only because it advances is carefully calculated goals of course..... Then I guess he works VERY hard on the Development Committee for St. Mungos... So many parties to go to! 

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> 
> > Real-To:  rainy_lilac at y...
> >
> > Arrrghhhh... are you sure? Not even in Cos? Maybe she says he is influential in the ministry rather than having an actual position, I dunno... I will look for this... But I always took that to mean that he had a real position there, and that people had no choice but to listen to him..
> 
> In CoS ""You have heard, of course, that the Ministry is conducting more
> raids," said Mr. Malfoy, taking a roll of parchment from his inside
> pocket and unraveling it for Mr. Borgin to read. "I have a few - ah -
> items at home that might embarrass me, if the Ministry were to call...
> The name Malfoy still commands a
> certain respect, yet the Ministry grows ever more meddlesome."
> 
> is what made me think he wasn't *at* the Ministry-
> 
> Then Draco said to Harry & Ron, as Crabbe & Goyle, "You
> know the Ministry of Magic raided our manor last week?"
> 
> And then, in Hagrid's hut, Lucius says:
> "The appointment - or suspension - of the headmaster is a matter for
> the governors, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy smoothly. "And as
> Dumbledore has failed to stop these attacks -"
> Since he just uses his last name, not Mr or Minister, it seems like he's "outside" the control of the ministry.
> 
> So I let him run the Daily Prophet. He has fun there....and plays wizarding golf in the snow in wintertimes when those blasted muggles can't get onto the courses up on the north sea in scotland - the only time for real wizards to play....




From LynnP333 at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 00:57:58 2001
From: LynnP333 at aol.com (LynnP333 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:57:58 EDT
Subject: Quirrell
Message-ID: <be.12919aee.28026316@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16121

Jamieson asked:

>Hey everybody....

>Got a question for all of you. It's for a fanfic that I'm writing. Heres the 
question:

>Is Quirrell  dead? At the end of PS it said: "He left Quirrell to die. He 
shows just as little mercy to his >followers as to his enemies."

>But it didn't state anything about Quirrell dying. So, did he die? What's 
everyones opinion on this?


Well, it didn't say in PS/SS, but in (GoF USA, Ch. 23 - page 654) there was 
the line:
"The servant died when I left his body, and I was left as weak as ever I had 
been," Voldemort continued.

...so, he's either dead or working for the California State Energy Commission 
which right now is about the same thing.

Lynn - sometimes powerless in California... guess it's a good thing for V 
that his power isn't derived from the California electric power companies. 
It's rarer than Phoenix feathers! :-)



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  9 01:07:23 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 01:07:23 -0000
Subject: Do Not Blame the Bo' Constrictor (filk)
Message-ID: <9ar20b+irpn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16122

Do Not Blame the Bo' Constrictor (from PS/SS, Chapter Two)

(To the tune of Blame It On the Bossa Nova)

Dedicated to Amy Z

(Author's Note: JKR does not assign a gender to the boa in Chapter 
Two, referring to the snake as "it"  For prosodic purposes, I am 
making the snake female.  The "Bossa Nova" dance originated in 
Brazil; the phrase is Portuguese for "New Wave.")

(The Scene: The Zoo in Little Whinging. The Dursleys are making a 
hasty exit, with HARRY lagging behind) 

HARRY
I was at the zoo when she caught my eye
She raised her head to mine with a wink so sly
It was then I asked her `bout her sign
And she said to see Brazil would be divine

Do not blame the bo' constrictor, on her glass folks pawed
It was mean to so restrict her, she should go abroad
When I told her she could tour the Rio De
Then the glass disappeared, she's on her way
Do not blame on the bo' constrictor, snakes should be free

(ZOO OFFICIALS) & SPECTATORS
(Now was it the crowd?)
No, no, the bo' constrictor!
(Or the glassy cage?)
No, no, the bo' constrictor!
(Did it get too loud?)
We saw that kid evict her!
(She seemed enraged!)

VERNON
We were at the zoo for my son's birthday
When suddenly to our great dismay
The reptile house erupted in combat
Because my nephew with a bo' did chat

VERNON & PETUNIA
Blame it on our nephew Potter, it is always him 
This whole thing bears the imprimatur of his patronym

DUDLEY
That serpent nearly swallowed me head first

HARRY
If she had, the poor thing would have surely burst

VERNON, PETUNIA & DUDLEY
Blame it on our nephew/cousin Potter, who sets snakes free 

(VERNON) & HARRY
(Now in cupboard locked)
Set free the bo' constrictor
(Outside access blocked)
Let be the bo' constrictor
(No meals for weeks)
Get me, not the constrictor
(`Cause to snakes you speak!)

     -  CMC







From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 01:09:59 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:09:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...
References: <74.957704f.28022e5a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE53JBjbUf9Sp2WEnKS00001c9e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16123

Mein Kampf was a disturbing book, but it shows Hitler's stratigical genius.  However it also shows his weakness: power.  Want of power in the true evil behind all things.  
~Adrienne~
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 4:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...


  In a message dated 3/30/01 4:42:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
  Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com writes:


  > And if you'll grant that there *are* such
  > things as radically evil books (Mein Kampf, for instance), would it not be
  > appropriate to take a radical stand against them?
  > 

  _Mein Kampf_, while being disturbing at best, is an important historical 
  document. I think it should be read just to ensure that we know how to deal 
  with the next madman that comes along.

  Just my 2 cents...

  Ocean Star


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr  9 01:25:10 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 01:25:10 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aqbns+lgec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ar31m+6iec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > In my hardcover edition of the U.S. book I have "careen".  I am 
> delighted that the editors corrected this in later printings.  I am 
> saddened, however, that the Merriam-Webster people have legitimized 
a 
> mistake, merely because it has become an-all-too-common error.  I 
> differ with their acceptance of this new meaning for what had been 
a 
> perfectly nice nautical tern. I realize that the language is 
evolving, 
> but this is not evolution, it is capitulation to ignorance.
> 
> Haggridd
> p.s. I also try not to split my infinitives, even though this 
solecism 
> of grammar has become somewhat acceptable.  H.

It occurs to me also that they changed the word so that Americans 
would not confuse the British-usage word 'career' (to lurch about)  
with the American-usage word 'career' (securing a lifelong livelihood 
occupation)






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  9 01:31:27 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 01:31:27 -0000
Subject: Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...
In-Reply-To: <OE53JBjbUf9Sp2WEnKS00001c9e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ar3df+hgeu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16125

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "China Chick" <ChinaChick1616 at h...> wrote:
> Mein Kampf was a disturbing book, but it shows Hitler's stratigical 
genius.  However it also shows his weakness: power.  Want of power in 
the true evil behind all things
 
> 
>   > And if you'll grant that there *are* such
>   > things as radically evil books (Mein Kampf, for instance), 
would it not be
>   > appropriate to take a radical stand against them?
>   > 
> 
>   _Mein Kampf_, while being disturbing at best, is an important 
historical 
>   document. I think it should be read just to ensure that we know 
how to deal 
>   with the next madman that comes along.

You could read the DSM-IV to gain the same knowledge: and unlike Mein 
Kampf, the DSM's ability to inspire sickos is quite limited.

On its strictly literary merits, Mein Kampf is too crude to be taken 
seriously - it is only the fact that its author achieved a certain 
notoriety in the political realm that keeps this singularly 
incoherent collection of babblings in print at all. 

I would not advocate MK's formal censorship, but I would remind folks 
of how Virgil remonstrated with Dante in Circle Eight, when the 
latter was gawking a bit too attentively on the billingsgate of some 
of the great celebrity sinners of 13th century Florence: "The wish to 
hear such baseness is degrading."  (Of course, that same stricture 
could be applied to much daytime TV as well............)




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Mon Apr  9 01:40:00 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:40:00 -0400
Subject: The Isolated Hut on the Rock
References: <986776888.1637.24999.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000501c0c096$0033dc40$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16126

    I just had a really strange thought. (Not a rare occurance)

    How did the Dursleys get back to mainland in SS/PS from the Hut on the
Rock if Hagrid and Harry took the boat? ^_^

    Any ideas?  I'd love to hear them!  Obviously, they *didn't* swim, and
there's no way to call for help.  ::gets a vision of Dudley in swimming
trunks and dies laughing::

--Becca, who is packing her schoolbag.  Break ends tooo fast!--




From birdy739 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 02:43:40 2001
From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 22:43:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin - neatly
Message-ID: <F174zGZuNY1SWoBDyse00001c29@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16127

I think I actually I read something about this in Gof after the Second task 
(I think). Harry and Ron were chatting about like using the summoning charm 
to summon a breathing machine ( for under water purposes)that they had read 
about in some article; and either H / Ron / Her. said something to the fact 
that they really couldn't use the summoning charm, because questions would 
diffently arise if people see a breathing contraption go flying by them, on 
it's way towards Hogwarts. I'm not completely sure what page that 
conversation was on though.
So, i guess what I'm really getting at, is that Lupin can't magic clothing 
to his side, because it would raise too many questions amoungst the muggles 
if they saw, per se, a pair of boxer shorts flying along in the air....
I hope that might answer your question...

Aurora Danen

>From: lea.macleod at gmx.net
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin - neatly
>Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 12:13:51 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little
>hints
> > > Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold
> > > together with strings that he has knotted Neatly...
> >
> > How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a good
> > piece of luggage?
>
>He doesnt have decent stuff because hes so poor - he must have had
>real trouble getting a job because nobody wants to employ a werewolf.
>
>And I think you cant just magic yourself rich.
>
>Remember the Weasley family -  Im sure if they could just magic
>things up, they wouldnt let their kids go to school in second hand
>robes and with second hand books.
>
>If you could, thered be no need for Gringotts and the shops in Diagon
>alley and the books would only be half the fun... which tends to be a
>general reason for a lot of unexplainable things in the books...
>
>Maybe things you conjure up out of thin air dont last as long as real
>things, or theyll just disappear after a while (like leprechaun
>gold).
>
>About Lupins character - yes, he seems to be a very orderly man. I
>think it fits very well with his way of treating other people, the way
>he talks, his sense of humour - there is nothing spectacular in it,
>but its still very thoughtful and deep. Lupin is certainly one of the
>"well-organised minds" Dumbledore speaks about in that wonderful scene
>at the and of HPPS.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Mon Apr  9 03:44:38 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 23:44:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Percy (was: Authority and rule-breaking)
In-Reply-To: <9aqkev+g16q@eGroups.com>
References: <9an6io+6hvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010408234438.009fe2c8@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16128

At 09:16 PM 4/8/01 -0000, you wrote:

>> I also think that was what impressed him about Voldemort and what 
>>  made him join the DE. Their inner organisation is based on 
>> hierarchy, on orders and obedience, and for someone looking for 
>> respect and recognition at all costs, that sort of system is very 
>> inviting (just a side thought - that?s exactly why I think Percy 
>> Weasley will go over to the dark side, too).

The operative word here is 'at all costs' - which is why I strongly oppose
the idea of Percy Weasley joining Voldemort (I chose this wording because,
from the text, it seems as though JKR is hinting at the possibility - but I
think it's just another red herring). An extremely anal person (pardon the
American slang I picked up a few years back) is just as capable of
distinguishing between good/bad, right/wrong as the next person. The
comment that Percy would not hesitate to hand a family member over to the
Dementors (or something to that effect) means just that. He has a very
strong sense of duty that takes a front seat to emotional attachment.

While both Snape and Percy enjoy exercising power and enforcing rules,
Snape's actions seem to be dictated more by personal preference and an
unreliable emotional pendulum. Percy, on the other hand, is unwaveringly
strict (and stuffy). His principles form a steady compass that dictates
objective, unbiased (well, relatively so) and resolute action in face of
the smallest infraction of rules/the law. While his harshness and general
air of pomposity is often remniscent of Snape, let's not forget that, when
it boiled down to his concern over appearances versus Ron's welfare (end of
second task, GoF), we saw Percy racing pale-faced into the water to pull
his brother out.

Samaporn

P.S. Again, please note that this was written without being able to check
out the exact details from GoF.



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 04:19:11 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 04:19:11 -0000
Subject: US/UK - funny bits - Harry Goes Bad - Lucius
Message-ID: <9ard7v+t49q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16129

I pleaded:

> Could someone with a US edition confirm that this isn't in it?  I
> could swear I've never read that before.

Joywitch wrote:

>No, sorry, its there.  I checked.  Exactly those words, too.  Page
>276 of the PB US edition.  Clearly, Amy has not read the HP books
>often enough.  Better hop to it, Amy, or we will throw you out of the
>League Of Obsessed Nitpickers (L.O.O.N.)

You can't throw me out--I'm the vice president!

Well, I'm disappointed.  A little extra wussiness from the girl who 
was too useless even to run when the troll was after her, a la all 
those idiot women in B movies who just stand and scream while the 
hero gets the crap kicked out of him.  Sigh.  She improves after 
PS/SS, fortunately.

Ah, time to reread . . . I just =love= having an excuse.  (Spouse 
[looking deeply concerned, as if he is wondering whether to dial 911]: 
 Are you reading that =again=?  Me:  I have to!  There were two 
sentences that I entirely forgot existed!  That must never happen 
again!)

BTW, I move that we induct Haggridd into LOON at our next meeting, on 
the strength of this sentence:

>The intended meaning of "to career", "to lurch wildly
>or unexpectedly from place to place", is not by any means an 
alternate
>or secondary meaning of the verb "to careen".

Catherine wrote:

>I'm sorry, but I prefer the "timidly."  It was
>obviously there for a purpose, and the second sentence is
>meaningless.  The context of the UK edition is much better.  BTW, I'm
>glad also that JKR put her foot down about "mom" and "mum" - the
>children are English. 

She didn't put her foot down with SS, unfortunately.  But I can 
understand why.  She needed a good advocate who could have told her, 
"Jo, they're paying you six figures; they want this thing.  If you 
insist on 'mum' they'll let you have your way!"  She must've been way 
too intimidated to keep things exactly as she'd written them.

I don't so much mind the "timidly" and kind of wonder why they took it 
out.  But the second sentence in the UK edition seems unnecessary.  We 
KNOW Sirius hasn't been spoken to politely in 12 years; we get the 
irony (and sweetness, IMO) of her timidly calling him "Mr. Black" when 
no one has called him anything but "Hey, Scum" in years.  If I read 
the "no one had spoken to him politely" line in fanfic, I'd recommend 
the author drop it.  The "as if he'd never seen anything quite like 
her" that the US edition put in its place is very different, and 
unnecessary in its own way, but adds a nice flair IMO.  It could mean 
all sorts of things--it just kind of invites us into Sirius's head 
for a second.  I took it as Sirius thinking "wow, this girl has guts." 

Jenny wrote:

>What is the funniest scene or
>line/lines in any of the HP books, in your opinion?

I cull them all the time for my list of sigs; my all-time favorite (if 
I must choose) is below.  Sometimes there are longer scenes, e.g. as I 
said the other day, I would include the entire 1st Divination class if 
it weren't a tad long for a sig...

I did notice that CoS is greatly underrepresented in my sig list.  I 
thought about that, thought "I don't =think= I think CoS is less funny 
than the others," reread it, and decided that it's just as funny but 
doesn't have as many one-liners or short exchanges that really make me 
laugh out loud.  It has very funny situations that I can't boil down 
to something small enough for a sig.  Lockhart, the car, Myrtle, etc.

SML wrote:

>Harry, standing in front of the Mirror:  I am "The Major Pyre Star" 
<snip> errr, how about "Majesty, Rather Pro".... "Thy Rare Major Pest"

LOL at the Harry Goes Bad fantasy!  Now, please tell me you have an 
anagram program and didn't figure those all out in your head!

Did you know that H. Ross Perot is an anagram for Short Poser?

Suzanne wrote:

>I just cant picture him playing golf all day. He is just too 
obsessed. He has an
>in somewhere, and it isnt respectable for a man to have NO 
profession.  

I agree that he doesn't play golf (or the wizarding equivalent) all 
day . . . =unless= he's using that time to cut deals, twist arms, etc. 
 As far as we know, he's independently wealthy.  He collects things 
(e.g. torture devices) and lunches with other powerful people.  Since 
when is it not respectable to have no profession?  You're not 
insulting my beloved Lord Peter, are you?

I think your rich donors to Harvard are just what I picture.  This 
=can= involve a lot of work, if, like Lucius, you have many specific 
ambitions and are smart and willing to work hard to further your 
goals.  As I see him, he doesn't have a job, but he's very busy; he 
doesn't just fork over thousands of Galleons to St. Mungo's and take a 
couple of meaningless Board positions, like some philanthropists.  He 
really works the system.

I can't see him running the Prophet--too much like a real job--but it 
was a cool idea, Heidi!  =Owning= the Prophet--I can see that.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
 "Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
 "Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------------




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 05:12:02 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 05:12:02 -0000
Subject: L.O.O.N.
Message-ID: <9argb2+fno4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16130

To paraphrase--and contradict-- Sherman, let me say:
If nominated, I shall run (thank you Joywitch).  If elected, I will 
serve.

Haggridd




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Apr  9 05:19:26 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:19:26 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Mein Kampf etc (was Re: Sympathy for the ... Christians etc.)
References: <9ar3df+hgeu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008001c0c0b5$1eb70ba0$7a3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16131

Hi everyone,

Could those members involved please move any further discussion of "Mein
Kampf", Hitler and related topics to the OT-Chatter list?  Although the
subject of book burning has some on topic connection to book banning and the
whole anti-HP movement, we are now, clearly, off topic with this.

This is probably a good opportunity to remind everyone that discussion of
politics and The Holocaust are not permitted anywhere in HPfGU, because of
their potential to generate bad feeling on the lists.  If the discussion
were to head in either of those directions, the people involved would be
asked to continue their debate offlist.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Neil
Moderator Team
_____________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Apr  9 06:50:12 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 06:50:12 -0000
Subject: The Isolated Hut on the Rock
In-Reply-To: <000501c0c096$0033dc40$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <9arm34+58lf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16132

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca Boswell" <rboswell at m...> wrote:
>     I just had a really strange thought. (Not a rare occurance)
> 
>     How did the Dursleys get back to mainland in SS/PS from the Hut 
on the
> Rock if Hagrid and Harry took the boat? ^_^
> 
>     Any ideas?  I'd love to hear them!  Obviously, they *didn't* 
swim, and
> there's no way to call for help.  ::gets a vision of Dudley in 
swimming
> trunks and dies laughing::
> 
> --Becca, who is packing her schoolbag.  Break ends tooo fast!--

It wouldn?t surprise me if it involved the wiarding world. Like that 
the Ministry of Magic arrived to zap them home, in the maintime 
giving them instructions for how to behave around Harry or whatever. 
And I think we?ll find out about the whole humiliating scene later on 
(in an outbreak from Vernon for example). I do wonder if the Dursleys 
hasn?t had alot more contact with the wizarding world than we know 
about.
/Jennifer




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 08:16:34 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:16:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's Scar 
Message-ID: <9arr52+l3vu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16133

Theory: 
Lily gave Harry the scar. 
It is often said that Voldemort gave Harry the scar, 
but why not Lily? The scar may be part of the protection she gave 
him. I thought of this yesterday and could not disprove the 
possibility. 

Bugg 





From perenelle13 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 09:07:19 2001
From: perenelle13 at yahoo.com (perenelle13 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:07:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's Scar
In-Reply-To: <9arr52+l3vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aru47+muql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16134

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Theory: 
> Lily gave Harry the scar. 
> It is often said that Voldemort gave Harry the scar, 
> but why not Lily? The scar may be part of the protection she gave 
> him. I thought of this yesterday and could not disprove the 
> possibility. 

interesting, but imho not plausible for a number of reasons, not the 
least of which being the unfortunate tendency of the scar to cause 
Harry intense pain whenever Voldemort "is near or feeling 
particularly murderous".  it's been stated a number of times that 
Harry's is a "curse scar", and one which carries with it a peculiar 
connection with the wizard who performed the curse.

as well, we already know about the nature Lily's protective charm, 
for the most part -- what reason would there be to hide a detail such 
as it somehow being the origin of Harry's scar?  that the scar is a 
product of a powerful curse rather than a charm is considerably more 
likely.


-cyn




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Mon Apr  9 11:51:06 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 04:51:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Dark Mark thought - Glasses
Message-ID: <20010409115106.A3B8F36FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16135

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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Mon Apr  9 12:08:42 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 05:08:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV revisited
Message-ID: <20010409120842.E7ADE36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16136

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From andeinmn at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 12:27:41 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:27:41 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
Message-ID: <90.12bbe35b.280304bd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16137

In a message dated 4/8/01 4:58:21 PM Central Daylight Time, nera at rconnect.com 
writes:

> Is there such a thing in HPFGU, as a strange thought? Someone in HPFGU had a
>  strange thought. Isn't that an oxymoron?
>  
>  Doreen, who thinks that would be the same thing as Minnesota having a good
>  driver

Doreen, honey, there are good drivers in Minnesota.  But we're all from out 
of state!!

Andrea, originally from Michigan



From birdy739 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 12:34:11 2001
From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:34:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Scar
Message-ID: <F19JbqJGNzscE8NpqhN000038ea@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16138

Cool theory!
But I'll have to say that i agree with perenelle13 on this.
Also, the fact that Harry has gained a few of V's attributes
such as: ~Parseltongue,  ~ and the brother wand of V's.


>From: "Bugg" <bugganeer at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Scar
>Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:16:34 -0000
>
>Theory:
>Lily gave Harry the scar.
>It is often said that Voldemort gave Harry the scar,
>but why not Lily? The scar may be part of the protection she gave
>him. I thought of this yesterday and could not disprove the
>possibility.
>
>Bugg
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Mon Apr  9 12:41:15 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 05:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] something fun to talk about
Message-ID: <20010409124115.AC3AC3ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16139

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Apr  9 13:30:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:30:04 -0500
Subject: ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
References: <90.12bbe35b.280304bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AD1B95C.5F55EB3A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16140

Good morning everyone  --

andeinmn at aol.com wrote:

> Doreen, honey, there are good drivers in Minnesota.  But we're all
> from out of state!!

Andrea -- not trying to pick on you, but this is the perfect example of
something that should only be posted to the OT-Chatter list.

For everyone who isn't yet familiar with our wonderful OT-Chatter group,
check out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

The Homepage to this group has a description of the sorts of topics that
MUST (or can) be raised there.  There's also a description of the things
that belong on OT-Chatter in the Files section of this group.

This group is very high-volume, and we, the Moderators, tend to get
offlist emails from members complaining about the volume and "why don't
we do something about it already!" when things like the above start
popping up.  We're trying hard to confine discussions on this main group
to substantive canon-based topics.

Another thing I've noticed the last few days: please avoid posting lots
of short messages.  We'd much rather see you combine them into one
message -- but, be sure your subject heading is reasonably descriptive
of what's included in your post.  See recent posts by Rita Winston & Amy
Z for the perfect example of how to do this!!

The other documents that newbies (or those who have consistently ignored
our pleas to read them -- <g>) should read are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 13:33:43 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:33:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV revisited
In-Reply-To: <20010409120842.E7ADE36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <20010409133343.62226.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16141

> Instead, [Dudley]'s described(and only the "pig in a wig"
> comment stated it was Harry's opinion, I believe) as the size of a
> small killer whale, a pink beach ball wearing different coloured
> bonnets, etc.

Actually, baby killer whales are quite stream-lined and not at all
"obese" or lumpy.  Some nice pics in National Geographic a few years
ago.  Definitely an example of Harry POV at work rather than
objective description such as the nurse's comments on Dudley's report card.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 00:16:08 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 00:16:08 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin - neatly
Message-ID: <LAW2-F67TUSzbAUfKRf00002dae@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16142

Yes, you can't magic yourself rich.  And an unspoken rule in all stories 
about magic - magic must cost something - maybe not money, but energy or 
time, or itself, i.e. you don't have unlimited power.  You have to have 
priorities. Otherwise there's no story.


>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > >  I just reread Prizoner from Azkaban and noticed those little
>hints
> > > Rowling puts in to Lupins personality - his battered case is hold
> > > together with strings that he has knotted Neatly...
> >
> > How come Lupin can't magic himself up some decent clothes and a good
> > piece of luggage?
>lea macleod wrote:
>He doesnt have decent stuff because hes so poor - he must have had
>real trouble getting a job because nobody wants to employ a werewolf.
>
>And I think you cant just magic yourself rich.
>
>If you could, thered be no need for Gringotts and the shops in Diagon
>alley and the books would only be half the fun... which tends to be a
>general reason for a lot of unexplainable things in the books...
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Apr  9 14:42:34 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:42:34 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
Message-ID: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16143

Chapter 37 Summary

The chapter begins with a flash forward. Harry looks back on his 
meeting with Cedric's parents. They do not blame him for Cedric's death 
and refuse to accept any of the Triwizard Gold.

Having distanced us a little, the narration picks up with  Harry's 
return to Gryffindor Tower. On Dumbledore's orders, the other students 
leave Harry alone. Molly has asked if Harry could go straight to the 
Weasley's for the summer, but Dumbledore has refused.

The only person Harry feels able to talk to is Hagrid. The trio visit 
Hagrid together, and discover that he is unworried. Dumbledore will be 
able to take care of everything. "What's comin' will come, an' we'll 
meet it when it does," Hagrid says. He's evasive about his plans for 
the summer, and about his relationship with Madame Maxime. 

At the Leaving Feast, Harry  notes that the real Mad Eye Moody is 
extremely twitchy, that Karkaroff is gone, that Madame Maxime is 
talking to Hagrid. But what fascinates him is Professor Snape, whose 
expression is "difficult to read." Harry wonders again how Dumbledore 
can be so sure of Snape, and whether Snape has, on Dumbledore's orders, 
taken up his role as a spy once more.

Dumbledore gives a speech, announcing that Voldemort has returned and 
is responsible for Cedric's death. Amid the stunned horror that fills 
the black-draped hall , three students don't look shocked at all: 
Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. A "hot sick swoop of anger" hits Harry in the 
stomach and he forces himself to turn away.  Dumbledore asks them all 
to raise their glasses again, this time to Harry. Dumbledore does not 
see that many of the Slytherin students refuse.

As the students say their farewells in front of the castle,  Krum gets 
a final word with Hermione.  Ron finally  asks Krum for his autograph. 

Once on the train, Harry finally opens up. It isn't until after lunch 
that Hermione drops her bombshell: Rita Skeeter is an unregistered 
animagus.  Hermione has trapped her in beetle form and imprisoned her  
in a jar.  Rita has just gone back into Hermione's bag when three 
unwelcome guests invade their compartment: Draco and his stooges. Harry 
orders them to get out. 

Draco's tauntings (or warnings) are broken off by a blast of spells 
from every direction,  as the trio go on the attack, joined by Fred and 
George who zap the Slytherins from behind.

Our Heroes push the unconscious bodies of their foes out into the 
corridor and settle down for some games of exploding Snap. Fred and 
George finally reveal that Ludo Bagman stiffed them out of their life 
savings.

When they arrrive in London,  Harry hangs back for a word with Fred and 
George. He insists that they use his Triwizard winnings for the joke 
shop (and some dress robes for Ron) cautioning them not to let Ron or 
Molly know how they got the money.

And now comes the moment that launched a thousand Ships. Hermione 
kisses Harry on the cheek. A friendly gesture? The surfacing of a 
secret crush?  Harry gets into the Dursley's car resolving to meet the 
future unworried. What will come will come(but not until May 2002 at 
last report.)

QUESTIONS:
Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione naive to 
think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and not publish for 
an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. Isn't that worse than 
anything Rita has done?

Draco and his group don't even have their wands out when they are 
surrounded and attacked. Are we  to approve of Fred and George 
attacking from behind? Was the reaction of Harry and his friends 
justified? Will they be receiving owls from the Improper Use of Magic 
Office? Or will they be fined by the Department of Magical 
Transportation for cursing while on a public conveyance? :)

Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this chapter. He misses 
the renegade Slytherins because he has "no magical eye", underlining 
his failure to spot the false Moody. Ron speaks "darkly" of 
Dumbledore's unknown reasons for keeping Harry at the Dursleys. Harry 
wonders about Dumbledore's confidence in Snape. Is the stage being set 
for a falling out between Harry and Dumbledore, or between Harry and 
Hagrid, whose confidence in Dumbledore is unwavering?







From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 15:09:30 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010409150930.87925.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16144

> Draco and his group don't even have their wands out
> when they are 
> surrounded and attacked. Are we  to approve of Fred
> and George 
> attacking from behind?  Was the reaction of Harry >
andhis friends 
> justified? Will they be receiving owls from the
> Improper Use of Magic 
> Office? Or will they be fined by the Department of
> Magical 
> Transportation for cursing while on a public
> conveyance? :)

Yes, yes, no, and no. :)  Harry, Ron, and Hermione
were acting under extreme provocation, and Fred and
George were gallantly protecting their little brother.
 And Malfoy deserved it, so there. [g]

As for improper use of magic, I seem to recall the use
of magic on the Hogwarts Express before.  I don't have
my books on hand, so I can't check to be sure, but
there was at least Ron's abortive attempt to turn
Scabbers yellow. (And wouldn't Peter just be
*thrilled* to turn back to human form and be bright
yellow!)  Perhaps the magic restriction only takes
effect after they leave the train?
  
> Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this
> chapter. [snip snip] Is the stage being set 
> for a falling out between Harry and Dumbledore, or
> between Harry and Hagrid, whose confidence in >
Dumbledore is unwavering?

Well, Harry has *never* understood why Dumbledore
supports Snape so much, dating back from the end of
PS/SS where Dumbledore gently corrects Harry to call
Snape *Professor* Snape.  I don't think that will
necessarily lead to any sort of falling out.  I *do*
think that something's going to have to happen with
the Slytherins, who clearly don't have much respect
for Dumbledore and have connections to various
practicing Death Eaters.  If Dumbledore continues to
remain blind to that possibility, there is a definite
chance of some uncharitable feelings on Harry's part,
but I don't think it'll go as far as an actual
falling-out.  Harry respects Dumbledore too much, and
thusfar even Dumbledore's failings have ended
positively.

Although I *do* join in on the earlier question - what
on earth was Dumbledore thinking when he hired
Lockhart?! :)


Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From elysian at subdimension.com  Mon Apr  9 15:20:53 2001
From: elysian at subdimension.com (elysian)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:20:53 -0700
Subject: A Dark Mark thought - Glasses
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010409082051.007ce140@yifan.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16145

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:47:59 -0000
   From: naama_gat at hotmail.com
Subject: Re: A Dark Mark thought - Glasses

Naama wrote:
>Another argument against the theory: I don't think that Voldy, with 
>his quest of immortality, would plan for the event of his death. To 
>me, his obsessiveness with immortality implies a huge fear of death, 
>which would prevent him from even contemplating the possiblity of his 
>death (the way some people don't make wills).

Yes, but the connection between the Dark Mark and his death is
also a way to help *prevent* it. Binding his servants to him would
prevent almost all from attempting to betray him or rise up and 
destroy/usurp him, as doing so would be to destroy themselves.
It's a perfect way to keep his own evil, ambitious little minions in 
check. There'll be no 'join up with Voldy, reap the benefits and 
betray him later' business. To join him, you must bind your life
to his.

Ah, the fanfic possibilities... Bunny repellent, anyone?


- elysian



 elysian at subdimension.com
  - (angst fairy at large) -
       IM: LosingEden
IRC: dreamless [sorcery.net]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 15:19:11 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 15:19:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9asjtg+8qvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16146

Outta my Monday moanin' mind--hasty thoughts from a 
classroom somewhere in the U.S.A....

Great summary, Pippin!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Chapter 37 Summary
>
> QUESTIONS:
> Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione 
naive to think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and 
not publish for an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. 
Isn't that worse than anything Rita has done?
> 

Hmm.  

Rita Skeeter is certainly nasty, but when I learned that she was 
supposed to be the "evil female character", I was disappointed.  
She is many things--a self-serving opportunist is the first thing 
that comes to mind--but she is not 100% evil yet.  I actually found 
her articles amusing, although I appreciated the characters' 
consternation over them as well.

I'm not sure how I feel about Hermione's kidnapping of the bug 
myself.  I do believe that it will backfire.  We haven't heard the last 
from Rita Skeeter.

I'm now also wondering if we will ever see the evil Weasley 
cousin.  Just because JKR said she didn't fit into this book 
doesn't mean she won't pop up later on.

> Draco and his group don't even have their wands out when 
they are surrounded and attacked. Are we  to approve of Fred 
and George attacking from behind? Was the reaction of Harry 
and his friends justified? Will they be receiving owls from the 
Improper Use of Magic Office? Or will they be fined by the 
Department of Magical Transportation for cursing while on a 
public conveyance? :)
> 

Take a deep breath and repeat after me:  GRYFFINDORS CAN 
DO NO WRONG.  <vbg>

All joking aside, I would have been more angry if there had not 
been some sort of physical retaliation at Draco's words.  Heidi 
does a great job explaning the method behind Draco's 
"madness" in her fanfiction SoC, but just thinking of pure canon, I 
always thought his remarks on the train scene were among his 
dumbest.  No wit there at all.

"Mudbloods" and "Muggle-lovers" seem to pack the same nasty 
emotional punch that the "word that starts with n and rhymes 
with figure" carries in the United States.  (Which makes me 
wonder if underprivileged Muggle-borns call themselves 
Mudbloods as an insidious form of self-hatred.)

Much as the thought of canon Draco's possible redemption 
makes me grin, I do think that the closest he'll realistically get to 
the team I'm rooting for is in a Snape-like capacity... resenting it.

> Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this chapter. He 
misses the renegade Slytherins because he has "no magical 
eye", underlining his failure to spot the false Moody. Ron speaks 
"darkly" of  Dumbledore's unknown reasons for keeping Harry at 
the Dursleys. Harry wonders about Dumbledore's confidence in 
Snape. Is the stage being set for a falling out between Harry and 
Dumbledore, or between Harry and Hagrid, whose confidence in 
Dumbledore is unwavering?

Could be both.

Several things could be causing Dumbledore to miss the mark:
1)  First of all, the man is 150 years old.  Cut him some slack, 
please... he's doing quite well for his age. <g>
2)  One wonders if Voldemort or any of his Death Eaters are 
doing something (spell from afar (but how?), lacing his drinks 
via Crouch-as-Moody, etc.) to weaken Dumbledore.
3)  Perhaps Dumbledore's wisdom and magical ability is derived 
from a Source (yes, been reading too much DD/DS) and the 
Source is weakening/waning.
4)  Maybe it has something to do with Dumbledore's sock 
fetish... could he have Elvish blood?  We know about 
house-elves... but they can't be the only elves in this particular 
world, can they?  (Not sure if I believe this theory.)
5)  Or perhaps Voldemort *is* slowly gaining control of 
Dumbledore, or Dumbledore's integrity is questionable.  (I DO 
NOT believe this... Dumbledore is the guide-figure in this story... 
his very role prohibits him from being on the wrong side.)

Harry's never been one to blindly follow authority.  Chances are 
very good that he will have a strong disagreement with Hagrid, 
Dumbledore, or both.

Again, great stuff, Pippin!

A couple of questions before I get back to work:
1)  What happened to Ron Week?  I'm really disappointed that 
we didn't have a chance to discuss that character more.  (And 
surprised that his devoted fans didn't moan about his lack of 
coverage compared to Hermione's.)  Could we push back Harry 
Week a bit so that Ron can get the attention he ::cough!:: 
deserves?  

2) Speaking of Harry week, won't there be a lot of people out of 
town due to the Easter break?  

--Ebony AKA AngieJ 




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr  9 16:09:16 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:09:16 -0000
Subject: Lupin - neatly
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F67TUSzbAUfKRf00002dae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9asmrc+s6sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16147

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Yes, you can't magic yourself rich.  And an unspoken rule in all 
stories 


This is from the Southwest News interview with JKR:


Q: It seems that the wizards and witches at Hogwarts are able to 
conjure up many things, such as food for the feasts, chairs and 
sleeping bags. . .if this is so, why does the wizarding world need 
money ? What are the limitations on the material objects you can 
conjure up ? It seems unnecessary that the Weasleys would be in such 
need of money. . . (Jan Campbell)

A: Very good question (well done, Jan!!). There is legislation about 
what you can conjure and what you can't. Something that you conjure 
out of thin air will not last. This is a rule I set down for myself 
early on. I love these logical questions! 

This doesn't explain everything (she NEVER explains everything...oh 
for a chance to do a follow-up question!). But it does give an idea 
of the underlying logic, the "rules," of magic in her world.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which includes links to a number of important interviews with JKR
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  8 07:46:15 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 07:46:15 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] flying
Message-ID: <LAW2-F96fCHJr1Wtyi600001fd5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16148


Perhaps he got a lift?

>From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
>
>According to QTA, there is no spell that allows a person to fly. So
>how did Hagrid get to the Hut on the Rock? He SAYS that he flew
>there. Okay, since it couldn't have been just Superman-style, arms
>out, flying, what did he use? A broomstick? Then where is it? If he'd
>left it outside but it was swept away in the storm, he'd have been
>looking for it when he came out in the morning. And think about how
>big a broomstick he would need. Certainly he didn't drive the
>motorcycle--that was ten years ago. And if he still had it since
>Sirius Black had gone after Pettigrew that day in 1981, and if he
>then used it to get to Harry in 1991, it should be sitting there,
>parked on the rock in the morning sunshine. No, I don't believe that
>he used the motorcycle. So HOW DID HE FLY? Mary Poppins-style, using
>that pink flowered umbrella of his?
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 16:26:14 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010409150930.87925.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010409162614.31952.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16149

> Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this
> chapter. [snip snip] Is the stage being set 
> for a falling out between Harry and Dumbledore, or
> between Harry and Hagrid, whose confidence in >
> Dumbledore is unwavering?


No, I think the stage is being set for Harry to grow into adulthood
when he stops taking things on trust and thinks for himself.  How old
were we when we realized our parents were old?  Harry is reaching
this point with Dumbledore.

Without stepping on Professor Trelawny's toes and claiming the art of
divination, I do think that at some point in the rest of the books
Harry will refuse to trust in Snape and the result will be calamitous
for their mutual cause and that he will have to adjust his attitude
and try again.  The theme of second chances is strong and will
continue, I believe.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr  9 16:29:40 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:29:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010409150930.87925.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9aso1k+9sie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16150

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > Draco and his group don't even have their wands out
> > when they are 
> > surrounded and attacked. Are we  to approve of Fred
> > and George 
> > attacking from behind?  Was the reaction of Harry >
> andhis friends 
> > justified? Will they be receiving owls from the
> > Improper Use of Magic 
> > Office? Or will they be fined by the Department of
> > Magical 
> > Transportation for cursing while on a public
> > conveyance? :)
> 
> Yes, yes, no, and no. :)  Harry, Ron, and Hermione
> were acting under extreme provocation, and Fred and
> George were gallantly protecting their little brother.
>  And Malfoy deserved it, so there. [g]

Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle are constantly antagonizing the Hogwarts 
Trio, always trying to start non-magickal fights (because Crabbe and 
Goyle are both big bullyboys, and none of the Trio are stunning 
physical specimens).  

Fred and George have displayed protective (if a touch over-the-top) 
tendencies before. It's how they show they care, other than by 
joking.  They were the first to rib Harry about being the Heir of 
Slytherin, but they also 'dropped' that Ton-Tongue Toffee for 
Dudley.  And they gave Harry the Marauders Map.  And they know very 
well that Draco and his henchmen have been thorns in Harry & co.'s 
sides all this time. 

Besides which, it is probably a good idea to remember, they're all 
_kids_.  Fred and George at this time are maybe 16 or 17 at best.  
Adding the above animosity plus the twins' ages and the fact that 
they were disgruntled about Bagman -- well, *shrug* it just doesn't 
seem they'd be inclined to stand idly by and let Malfoy & co. 
continue to give Harry a hard time (especially so soon after having 
fought Voldemort and seen Cedric die). 
 
> As for improper use of magic, I seem to recall the use
> of magic on the Hogwarts Express before.  

It's my guess that the train is considered Neutral Ground.

[CoS] "Since we weren't actually *at* Hogwarts yet, the term hadn't 
started, so there shouldn't be any points taken from Gryffindor..." 
[phrased from memory, Harry to McGonnagal]

While I know that Harry and Ron technically were in the Weasley 
Flying Car, I can't see why it wouldn't apply for the train as well.

I daresay they let the kids magic their hearts out on their ride home 
to get it out of their systems; because it'll be *months* before 
they're allowed to do so again (unless, like Ron, they come from a 
huge all-wizard family). 

I don't have
> my books on hand, so I can't check to be sure, but
> there was at least Ron's abortive attempt to turn
> Scabbers yellow. (And wouldn't Peter just be
> *thrilled* to turn back to human form and be bright
> yellow!)  

The yellow spell for sure. 

Perhaps the magic restriction only takes
> effect after they leave the train?
>   
> > Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this
> > chapter. [snip snip] Is the stage being set 
> > for a falling out between Harry and Dumbledore, or
> > between Harry and Hagrid, whose confidence in >
> Dumbledore is unwavering?
> 
> Well, Harry has *never* understood why Dumbledore
> supports Snape so much, dating back from the end of
> PS/SS where Dumbledore gently corrects Harry to call
> Snape *Professor* Snape.  I don't think that will
> necessarily lead to any sort of falling out.  I *do*
> think that something's going to have to happen with
> the Slytherins, who clearly don't have much respect
> for Dumbledore and have connections to various
> practicing Death Eaters.  If Dumbledore continues to
> remain blind to that possibility, there is a definite
> chance of some uncharitable feelings on Harry's part,
> but I don't think it'll go as far as an actual
> falling-out.  Harry respects Dumbledore too much, and
> thusfar even Dumbledore's failings have ended
> positively.

Plus which, Dumbledore has in no small measure been Harry's guardian 
angel. 

It was Dumbledore who came and got Harry and Quirrell separated in 
the first book.  And also keep in mind that Dumbledore has showed no 
small amount of trust to Harry as well -- given that he let Harry in 
on the secrets of the Mirror of Erised.

It was the Sorting Hat, Sword, and Fawkes the Phoenix (all whose 
homes are Dumbledore's office) that allowed Harry the victory in the 
second book.

I think it will take something of vast scope to shake Harry's faith 
in Dumbledore to the point where they will come to "a parting of the 
ways." 
> 
> Although I *do* join in on the earlier question - what
> on earth was Dumbledore thinking when he hired
> Lockhart?! :)
> 
That was me. *chee* 
Maybe he lost a bet. 
> 

And as for Hermione: 

I think Hermione either doesn't care or thinks "an eye for an eye" is 
fair.  After Skeeter's nasty article about her, Hermione suffered 
being made a pariah for the most part -- even Mrs. Weasley was cool 
to Hermione until Harry spoke up and said, "You don't believe that 
rubbish, do you?" 

Plus, Rita Skeeter was still on the Hogwarts grounds after having 
been *ordered off* them.  Technically, she could've turned Skeeter in 
to Dumbledore and McGonnagall, and it is doubtful they would've been 
as kind to Skeeter as Hermione is by asking her not to say anything 
for a year. Not to mention the fact that Rita is also quite probably 
an _unregistered_ animagus...which makes her in violation of wizard 
law.  So  Hermione has got Skeeter over a barrel here, in my 
opinion.  







From meckelburg at foni.net  Mon Apr  9 16:35:32 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:35:32 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's wand?
Message-ID: <9asock+4qh2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16151

I hope this hasn't been discussed too often before, but why  does 
Hagrid not be able to buy himself a new wand?
You don't have to be a full -trained wizard to own one ( or the 
students wouldn't have one) and Hagrid's reputation was restored after 
CoS. I'm sure Hagrid kept up his magical education with or without 
Dumbledores help while he was expelled from lessons, so I think he 
could just do at least the OWL -Exams.

What do you think?

Mecki




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr  9 16:44:04 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:44:04 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's wand?
In-Reply-To: <9asock+4qh2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9asosk+lqml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16152

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> I hope this hasn't been discussed too often before, but why  does 
> Hagrid not be able to buy himself a new wand?
> You don't have to be a full -trained wizard to own one ( or the 
> students wouldn't have one) and Hagrid's reputation was restored 
after 
> CoS. I'm sure Hagrid kept up his magical education with or without 
> Dumbledores help while he was expelled from lessons, so I think he 
> could just do at least the OWL -Exams.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Mecki

I think Hagrid feels sentimental toward his old wand, for one thing.  
I am certain it's concealed in the pink umbrella (what an odd choice!)

I also think Hagrid probably did *not* keep his magical education all 
the way up because what magic he does does not always work out. 
Witness Dudley's pig-tail.  ("He's so much like a pig already" may be 
plausible, but the spell did fizzle.) 

And he's probably embarrassed at his age now to start over.  And it 
takes more than  a wand to do proper wizarding.

There's also the fact that Hagrid seems to genuinely enjoy his job 
like he has it.  

I honestly HOPE that there's no magickal prohibition on him from 
having been expelled falsely and sent to Azkaban equally falsely!

Indigo





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Apr  9 17:06:25 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:06:25 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Squibb Policy
Message-ID: <9asq6h+97hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16153


We know Voldy is against Muggle-borns and Muggles, but what are his 
possible feelings toward Squibbs? Do you think he regards them as the 
same as Muggles?

:-)Milz  




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  9 17:07:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:07:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] flying via pink brollies
References: <LAW2-F96fCHJr1Wtyi600001fd5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c0c118$7abf30e0$9114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16154

>From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
>
So HOW DID HE FLY? Mary Poppins-style, using
>that pink flowered umbrella of his?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the absurdness of Huge
Hagrid using a frilly pink umbrella to get about the grounds and such.  If
wizards can make cars and motorcycles fly, why not pink umbrellas? You *do*
see him folding it up right after he storms into the hut. *hint* *hint*

Doreen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Apr  9 17:24:01 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:24:01 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <20010409124115.AC3AC3ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9asr7h+angn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16155

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> That, and just the image of Moody(even if it is the imposter) 
> turning Draco into a ferret...I just get this hilarious image of a 
> white ferret being bounced like a basketball, squeaking like a 
> squeak toy every time it hits the floor *starts giggling* How can 
> someone NOT find that funny???

I have to admit, on my first read, I did. But the second time, 
knowing who "Moody" was, oh, I did *not* laugh. I found it 
horrifying - given what we know about Crouch Jr - he's someone who 
would torture 2 people until they were insane, he spent time in 
Azkaban which probably unhinged him further, he is sorely disapointed 
that Voldemort didn't torture every single Death Eater - I just saw 
this as an indication that DaDA class was probably HELL for the 
Slytherins that year - and that Crouch Jr really wanted to make the 
Malfoys suffer. He hates them - all those Death Eaters who walked 
free - he says so to Harry multiple times - and this transfiguration 
is just a physical manifestation of that hatred - directed against a 
*fourteen* year old who has, to the best of our knowledge, *never* 
personally seriously physically injured anyone else. Even in GoF, 
when he had the opportunity to curse Harry, and, btw, *did*, what did 
he do? A tooth growing curse (when Harry sent *boils* back at him) - 
<sarcasm on> Oh, my that's scary and dangerous and full of dark magic 
<sarcasm off>. 
Pathetic. That's what I think of Crouch, and to be honest, what I 
thought of Draco in the end of GoF as well. Ebony wrote
> 
> All joking aside, I would have been more angry if there had not 
> been some sort of physical retaliation at Draco's words.  Heidi 
> does a great job explaning the method behind Draco's 
> "madness" in her fanfiction SoC, but just thinking of pure canon, I 
> always thought his remarks on the train scene were among his 
> dumbest.  No wit there at all.
> "Mudbloods" and "Muggle-lovers" seem to pack the same nasty 
> emotional punch that the "word that starts with n and rhymes 
> with figure" carries in the United States.  (Which makes me 
> wonder if underprivileged Muggle-borns call themselves 
> Mudbloods as an insidious form of self-hatred.)

I absolutely agree with Ebony here. it's pathetic. It is just 
purposeless and silly and nonsensical, and if he was warning them he 
handled it so badly he deserved to get cursed (and thanks Pippin for 
at least mentioning that possibility) and if he was threatening them 
he handled it so badly, not having his wand out and all, that he 
deserved to get cursed. If he'd at least had his wand out, it 
would've felt ominous (and it would've been fun for Harry, etc. to 
hide it so they'd have a time of finding it after they woke up). But 
as it is, upon rereads of it, all it makes me think about is (a) What 
would Draco be like without his spies (Crabbe & Goyle) around him 
(and by spies, I mean, they spy on HIM and report back to lucius; and 
(b) does Draco have any idea what an insult "Mudbloods" is - I have a 
little backstory on this which basically takes place after Ron's Slug 
curse backfires, which involves Draco asking other Slytherins, "What 
did I say?" and  a Gryffindor Quidditch player interjecting, "You 
called her a Mudblood!" and him replying, "Yeah, so? Her parents are 
Muggles, she's a witch, so she's a Mudblood. What of it?" and one of 
the Gryffs saying "It's a horrible insult! (etc)", then Draco writing 
home and asking Lucius, who says, "No it's not, it's the same as 
saying somebody is tall or short. It's just a fact about them." And 
of course, Draco believes Lucius...I see Draco as being very clueless 
about the world, and having grown up like a hothouse plant - very 
insulated, everything he reads & everyone he meets, until he gets to 
Hogwarts, pretty closely screened - and even at Hogwarts, within 
Slytherin, none of them are likely to contradict his use of a term 
like that. He doesn't use the word at all in PoA (I checked!) and in 
GoF, only uses it twice - once against Hermi, and then here on the 
train. And even I can't quite figure out why... Maybe Cassie will 
have some food for thought on this.

Eb also wrote
> 1)  What happened to Ron Week?  I'm really disappointed that 
> we didn't have a chance to discuss that character more.  (And 
> surprised that his devoted fans didn't moan about his lack of 
> coverage compared to Hermione's.)  Could we push back Harry 
> Week a bit so that Ron can get the attention he ::cough!:: 
> deserves?  

Um, ditto. Especially since I've heard there was an interesting Ron 
discussion yesterday in chat which I *really* am sorry to have 
missed...Come on, Ron-people! Start talking him up!
 
Ebony also wrote: (Stop! Come back! Don't hide from little me!)
> However, we see this particular world through Harry's glasses, like 
> it or not.
> 
> If we can't trust his take on things, who can we trust?
> 
> *hides from Heidi*
I do trust Harry's take on things, in general. However, I do believe 
that as far as Draco goes, Harry's perspective is not 100% accurate 
because (a) Draco so badly blundered the Friends Making moments on 
the train and in the robe shop, and (b) Harry looks at Draco and sees 
Dudley - a blond with a superiority complex - and I think the two in 
combination make it impossible for Harry to see Draco with an 
unbiased eye - just as it makes it impossible for Harry to see Snape 
with an unbiased eye. In PS/SS, for example, everything Snape is 
described as doing is colored by Harry's belief that he's the Bad 
Guy. It doesn't really *end* completely, although it is lessened in 
the later books. And likewise, everything Draco does in all 4 books 
is colored by Harry's belief that he is just a bad little kid. Plus, 
we don't see what is going on in the World of Draco when Harry isn't 
there - other than the 1 scene in CoS, where Draco makes two things 
clear: (a) He doesn't like Weasleys (yeah? so?); and (b) he has *no 
idea* what's going on with the Chamber of Secrets although he 
suspects that his father might. Might have an idea, I mean - 
not "might have something to do with it" - we *know* the latter is 
true in the end of Book 2, but we don't know if Draco knows exactly 
what Lucius was up to. We can conjecture that he did, but we can't 
prove that it was made public - I actually get the impression from 
the Quidditch World Cup that even Fudge doesn't know - WHY else would 
he introduce Malfoys and Weasleys that way? (introduce Ginny Weasley 
to Lucius Malfoy, more or less? UGH!) If he knows and is still really 
*that* insensitive, then he's worse than I thought.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Apr  9 17:29:22 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:29:22 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <9aso1k+9sie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9asrhi+k35p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16156

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:

> Besides which, it is probably a good idea to remember, they're all 
> _kids_.  Fred and George at this time are maybe 16 or 17 at best.  

They turned seventeen in April (GoF ch. 12) which makes them "of age" 
by wizarding law. Do we really think the Malfoys, not to mention the 
Crabbe and Goyle families, are going to miss a chance to nail the 
Weasleys? Or have Harry declared 'deranged and dangerous' and locked up 
in St. Mungo's?

Pippin





From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 17:34:13 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:34:13 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9asrql+29k4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16157

I can't express how excited I am to be on vacation right at the time 
we discuss the last chapter and my beloved Harry!  :-)
> 
> QUESTIONS:
> Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione naive to 
> think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and not publish 
for  an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. Isn't that worse 
than anything Rita has done?

Rita Skeeter is as annoying as her mosquito name implies.  She made me 
very angry with her sneaking around the grounds illegally, making 
friends with Malfoy (was she in Slytherin once?), and lying so 
outrageously about a group of kids...  how low can you go?  Good for 
Hermione for outwitting Rita Skeeter!  I agree that Rita's punishment 
would be far more severe had the Ministry of Magic, not to mention 
Dumbledore, found out what she was up to.  


> Draco and his group don't even have their wands out when they are 
> surrounded and attacked. Are we  to approve of Fred and George 
> attacking from behind? Was the reaction of Harry and his friends 
> justified? Will they be receiving owls from the Improper Use of 
Magic Office? Or will they be fined by the Department of Magical 
> Transportation for cursing while on a public conveyance? :)

I'd like to think that this scene has laid the foundation for future 
adventures of Harry with Fred and George - they are clearly too clever 
to simply be the clowns all the time.  As for Malfoy - he's a 
bullying, racist Mama's boy who provokes people to defend themselves 
as they see fit.  
> 
> Emphasis is laid on Dumbledore's fallibility in this chapter. He 
misses the renegade Slytherins because he has "no magical eye", 
underlining his failure to spot the false Moody. Ron speaks "darkly" 
of Dumbledore's unknown reasons for keeping Harry at the Dursleys. 
Harry wonders about Dumbledore's confidence in Snape. Is the stage
being set for a falling out between Harry and Dumbledore, or between 
Harry and  Hagrid, whose confidence in Dumbledore is unwavering?

I have spent hours wondering about just this.  I do believe that 
Hagrid will, upon making contact with the giants, question his loyalty 
to Dumbldedore.  Didn't anyone else think his faithfulness was too 
blind to be believable?  I don't think a falling out of sorts will be 
permanent, but would certainly be damaging.

As for Harry having a falling out with Dumbledore?  I can't quite 
picture that one.  We really need Dumbledore to stay good, especially 
for Harry.  But might Dumbledore have to punish Harry at some point?  
Now that I can see.  Harry does have a way of breaking major rules, 
whether by accident or deliberately, and I can see that getting him in 
some hot water.  I've heard rumors that Harry may temporarily be 
expelled from Hogwarts.  Wouldn't that be terrifyingly interesting?

I also wonder about the Slytherins.  Will Draco always stand by his 
father's side?  He's never taken any time to think things through on 
his own, let alone study more for his classes.  Dumbledore can't 
possibly be naive enough to not know who many of the Slytherins are, 
but I suppose he believes that one cannot punish the child for the 
sins of the parents.  We'll just have to see about that one.

When are we going to start talking about Harry?  I c




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Mon Apr  9 17:46:32 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:46:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 37 Summary
References: <9asrql+29k4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD1F577.404D7DF4@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16158


meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I also wonder about the Slytherins.  Will Draco always stand by his
> father's side?  He's never taken any time to think things through on
> his own, let alone study more for his classes.  Dumbledore can't
> possibly be naive enough to not know who many of the Slytherins are,
> but I suppose he believes that one cannot punish the child for the
> sins of the parents.  We'll just have to see about that one.

Well, there are many of us around here who think that it's possible for
Draco to have somewhat of a change of heart at some point.  Reading
Cassie's and Heidi's fics, which I heartily recommend, btw, has helped
convince many people of this! :)  Canon Draco has so far not shown a lot
of evidence that he could be good, but it's possible he could come around.

Barbara :)
> 
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr  9 17:57:53 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 17:57:53 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary:   Fred & George's Back Attack 
In-Reply-To: <9asrhi+k35p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ast71+31p5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16159

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> 
> > Besides which, it is probably a good idea to remember, they're 
all 
> > _kids_.  Fred and George at this time are maybe 16 or 17 at 
best.  
> 
> They turned seventeen in April (GoF ch. 12) which makes them "of 
age" 
> by wizarding law. Do we really think the Malfoys, not to mention 
the 
> Crabbe and Goyle families, are going to miss a chance to nail the 
> Weasleys? Or have Harry declared 'deranged and dangerous' and 
locked up 
> in St. Mungo's?
> 
> Pippin

I thought 18 was of age.  Hmm.

But Fred and George also attacked from behind, so it's not like 
Malfoy and his henchmen *saw* them coming, either. It could've been 
anyone who thought well of Harry (or Cedric, for that matter, since 
Harry went to the trouble of bringing Cedric's body home) who nailed 
Malfoy.

>From previous appearances, it looks like the Malfoys are perfectly 
content to try to get Arthur Weasley sacked, and to make fun of them 
for being poor.  

As for the having Harry declared deranged, Rita Skeeter tried it, and 
Dumbledore wouldn't put up with it.  I seriously doubt he'd put up 
with Lucius Malfoy trying the same tactic. 

Plus, Harry's a hero. I'm willing to bet St. Mungo's staff would look 
Harry up and down thoroughly before they accepted him without 
question...to say nothing of checking with Madame Pomfrey!

Besides, Lucius has already bullied and threatened the governors of 
Hogwarts into doing his bidding once -- and had it backfire on him.  
He'd have to be either desperate or stupid to try the same tactic.  

Plus, I think he has other things on his mind at this point.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 17:58:53 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hagrid's wand?
In-Reply-To: <9asock+4qh2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010409175853.58993.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16160

--- meckelburg at foni.net wrote:
> I hope this hasn't been discussed too often before,
> but why  does 
> Hagrid not be able to buy himself a new wand?
> You don't have to be a full -trained wizard to own
> one ( or the 
> students wouldn't have one) and Hagrid's reputation
> was restored after 
> CoS. I'm sure Hagrid kept up his magical education
> with or without 
> Dumbledores help while he was expelled from lessons,
> so I think he 
> could just do at least the OWL -Exams.

Well, students are allowed wands because they're
actively learning the use of magic under supervision. 
The fact that Hagrid's was snapped in half upon his
expulsion from Hogwarts indicates that if you're not
trained or in-training you're not allowed a wand.  

However, now that Hagrid's name has been cleared, I
think it would be amusing if Hagrid could start taking
some classes in order to get a GED or something. [g]
There's no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to start
back where he stopped, IMO.  'Course, Hagrid was
expelled in his third year, which would make him about
even with Ginny if he were to go back now.  Can you
picture him trying to look inconspicuous in the back
of the class? :)


Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 18:06:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 18:06:18 -0000
Subject: Ch. 37 - Hagrid - Squibs - UnFunny - Ron
Message-ID: <9astmq+o11p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16161

Great summary, Pippin!  Is anyone else sad that we've reached the 
last chapter, like I am?

Ebony wrote:

>Rita Skeeter is certainly nasty, but when I learned that she was 
>supposed to be the "evil female character", I was disappointed.  

Once again I'm grateful that I didn't know anything about the advance 
press on GoF before I read it.  Maybe I should observe an HP media 
fast between now and OoP...sure, right.

I didn't know there was going to be an "evil female character" so I 
just took Rita as she came.  I like her form of evil for the same 
reason I like Fudge's; it's more realistic and challenging than the 
foaming-at-the-mouth-sadist variety.  She's just a reporter looking 
for a story, just as Fudge is just a Minister trying to keep things 
going smoothly.  I can relate to these motives; their failings are the 
failings of ordinary sinning mortals, not Evil Overlords.  

Ebony:

>2)  One wonders if Voldemort or any of his Death Eaters are 
>                 doing something (spell from afar (but how?), lacing 
his drinks 
>                 via Crouch-as-Moody, etc.) to weaken Dumbledore.
>4)  Maybe it has something to do with Dumbledore's sock 
>                 fetish... 

<irony marker on> I suspect a connection.  The Death Eaters are 
putting a Stupidifying Powder in Dumbledore's socks, which he absorbs 
through the soles of his feet. <irony marker off>

Pippin, I think you are really onto something with the hints about 
Dumbledore's failing strength/perceptions.  I have no idea where it's 
headed; I don't think a falling-out is at all likely.  We barely know 
what D's powers are yet...I hope they don't wane before we get to see 
them in action.

I think Harry ought to tell him what he observed about the Slytherin 
table, but I bet he won't--it would sound too self-serving.  But I 
don't think Dumbledore needs a magical eye or an informant to know 
that he has a lot of junior DEs running around the school.

Andrea II wrote:

> Although I *do* join in on the earlier question - what
> on earth was Dumbledore thinking when he hired
> Lockhart?!

"He was the =on'y= man for the job.  An' I mean the =on'y= one."  (Cos 
7)  Not to suggest that we should ever take Hagrid's words literally, 
but Dumbledore was scraping the bottom of the barrel.  (Lupin must've 
been enjoying some R&R on the Aegean all spring and couldn't be 
tapped.)

Mecki wrote:

>I hope this hasn't been discussed too often before, but why  does 
> Hagrid not be able to buy himself a new wand?

I don't think this has been brought up since I joined the list 
(Christmas).  He shouldn't need OWLs to get one, either, wouldn't you 
say?  His name was publicly cleared after CoS, which should be good 
enough for Mr. Ollivander.

Doreen wrote:

>If wizards can make cars and motorcycles fly, why not pink umbrellas? 
You *do*
>see him folding it up right after he storms into the hut. *hint* 
*hint*

Dingdingdingding canon infiltration alert!  This is from the movie, 
not from PS/SS.

Milz wrote:

>We know Voldy is against Muggle-borns and Muggles, but what are his 
>possible feelings toward Squibbs? Do you think he regards them as the 
>same as Muggles?

Young Voldy speaks:  "Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?  Ginny 
Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets.  She strangled the school 
roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls.  She set the 
Serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods, and the Squib's cat."  (CoS 
17)

I think he hates them.

Heidi, yes, even Draco-loving Heidi, wrote of the ferret scene:

>I have to admit, on my first read, I did. But the second time, 
>knowing who "Moody" was, oh, I did *not* laugh.

I might have laughed--I don't recall--but I dislike that scene more 
each time I read it.  If Moody repeatedly slammed a student against 
the stone floor in his (the student's) human form, the humor would 
dissipate.  This is plain abuse.  Transfiguration as a punishment:  
=that's= funny.  Bruising and beating:  that's not.  JMMO (Just My 
Minority Opinion).

Ebony asked:

>1)  What happened to Ron Week?  I'm really disappointed that 
>we didn't have a chance to discuss that character more.

Me too.  Can we have some more time on Ron, please, Mister and Madam 
Moderators?  Not because he's Poor Neglected Ron ::smiles angelically 
over the water towards H/H ship::, but because he's interesting and 
controversial.

I thought Susan's post on Ron suggested that it was just part I.  If 
Susan isn't up to posting more conversation starters, we could dig 
into yesterday's chat and throw out some Ronthoughts from there.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville.  "I don't think
 you should be breaking any more rules!  And you were the one
 who told me to stand up to people!"
   "Yes, but not to =us=," said Ron in exasperation.
                             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  9 18:19:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:19:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
References: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c0c121$90669f60$9114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16162




I abhor the changes that the editors of the U.S. editon of the books
made in their patronizing assumption that American readers--
including kids-- would not appreciate the British locutions.  First
and foremost, of course, is the loss of the title of PS. I won't go
into all of the rich alchemical history associated with the search
for the Philosopher's Stone; suffice it to say that the U.S. edition
suffers from the lack of any such associations.  The differences of
expression add to our enjoyment of the HP books; the editors should
have left well enough alone.  Their capital crime, however, is that
those editors have eliminated a correct word, and, in their supreme
ignorance actually have made an error in its stead.  The verb "to
career" is used properly by JKR.  The editors have replaced it with
the verb "to careen", which means "to dock or beach a ship for repair
or refitting".  The intended meaning of "to career", "to lurch wildly
or unexpectedly from place to place", is not by any means an alternate
or secondary meaning of the verb "to careen".  I apologize for
ranting this way, but it really annoyed me the way the editors
condescended to American readers of all ages.

Haggridd

******************
Sorry, but JKR made ALL of the editing changes "by herself."


>From a Scholastic Interview:

Q. What kind of manuscript changes had to be made to make the U.S. version
more understandable to American readers? Specific things, like the title
change of the first Harry Potter book?

A. Very few changes have been made in the manuscript. Arthur Levine, my
American editor, and I decided that words should be altered only where we
felt they would be incomprehensible, even in context, to an American reader.
I have had some criticism from other British writers about allowing any
changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that argument is to go
and tell French and Danish children that we will not be translating Harry
Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.
The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that the
British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. We discussed
several alternative titles and 'Sorcerer's Stone' was my idea.

From:
http://www.southwestnews.com/rowling.htm


Q: Do you assist with the vernacular, idiomatic expression and other
vocabulary changes between the UK and the US versions of the HP series ?
(Jenny Lando)

A: Do I assist ? I do it all! A lot has been made of this but I have to say
too much has been made of it. The word changes were miniscule. I don't think
it would be as much as one per cent. And they were literally words that
meant something utterly different - like 'jumper', which means 'pinafore
dress' in America. I didn't want people to think Harry was walking around in
a pinafore dress. They have enough problems without going into drag as well.
(JKR)

Ahem ... does this make JKR an idiot?

Doreen
*************************






From margdean at erols.com  Mon Apr  9 17:47:40 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 13:47:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Squibb Policy
References: <9asq6h+97hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD1F5BC.49FDCC53@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16163

Milz wrote:
> 
> We know Voldy is against Muggle-borns and Muggles, but what are his
> possible feelings toward Squibbs? Do you think he regards them as the
> same as Muggles?

People like Voldemort only have any respect for people who are
powerful.  As essentially "powerless" people (in the realm of
magic, anyway), Squibs would be worthy of nothing but contempt in
his eyes, I should think.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 11:47:14 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 11:47:14 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Percy (was: Authority and rule-breaking)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1015g2oHzGkzM00003f02@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16164

Glad someone's standing up for Percy - the worst thing about him is that 
he's gullible.  He doesn't realize his in-tray is full of dragon dung 
"fertilizer samples" because Fred and George sent them, and he doesn't 
question the instructions sent by Mr Crouch when the latter is "indisposed", 
i.e. in Voldemort's power.  I could see him being fooled by the enemy in 
future books, but not joining them.  His pomposity is quite endearing - why 
shouldn't he be proud of being a prefect, or of being Head Boy?  If he's 
also proud of his report on thin-bottomed cauldrons, I think that's sweet.  
We see him geniunely concerned for Ginny, when her other brothers don't seem 
to have noticed anything's wrong, and for Penelope when she is frozen by the 
basilisk. (Ron thinks this is because Penelope is a fellow-prefect, 
therefore Percy's concern is ultimately self-centred, but we find out later 
she is Percy's girlfriend, so he does care about her.)  We also see him 
being serious and responsible in a crisis - e.g. troll incident, even if he 
is bossy and self-important at the same time.  I can't recall his ever doing 
anything that could be described as "harsh".  I think what drives Percy is 
that he wants to be "good" - a good boy, a good pupil, a good brother, good 
son, good employee - perhaps he will find it more difficult to be all of 
these at the same time, and will face a conflict of loyalties between family 
and ministry.  But he is too human, and just too funny to become evil.


>From: Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at fas.harvard.edu>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Percy (was: Authority and rule-breaking)
>Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 23:44:38 -0400
>
>At 09:16 PM 4/8/01 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >> I also think that was what impressed him about Voldemort and what
> >>  made him join the DE. Their inner organisation is based on
> >> hierarchy, on orders and obedience, and for someone looking for
> >> respect and recognition at all costs, that sort of system is very
> >> inviting (just a side thought - thats exactly why I think Percy
> >> Weasley will go over to the dark side, too).
>
>The operative word here is 'at all costs' - which is why I strongly oppose
>the idea of Percy Weasley joining Voldemort (I chose this wording because,
>from the text, it seems as though JKR is hinting at the possibility - but I
>think it's just another red herring). An extremely anal person (pardon the
>American slang I picked up a few years back) is just as capable of
>distinguishing between good/bad, right/wrong as the next person. The
>comment that Percy would not hesitate to hand a family member over to the
>Dementors (or something to that effect) means just that. He has a very
>strong sense of duty that takes a front seat to emotional attachment.
>
>While both Snape and Percy enjoy exercising power and enforcing rules,
>Snape's actions seem to be dictated more by personal preference and an
>unreliable emotional pendulum. Percy, on the other hand, is unwaveringly
>strict (and stuffy). His principles form a steady compass that dictates
>objective, unbiased (well, relatively so) and resolute action in face of
>the smallest infraction of rules/the law. While his harshness and general
>air of pomposity is often remniscent of Snape, let's not forget that, when
>it boiled down to his concern over appearances versus Ron's welfare (end of
>second task, GoF), we saw Percy racing pale-faced into the water to pull
>his brother out.
>
>Samaporn
>
>P.S. Again, please note that this was written without being able to check
>out the exact details from GoF.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 18:55:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 18:55:17 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
In-Reply-To: <00c601c0c121$90669f60$9114a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9at0il+6lbe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16165

Doreen wrote:

> Sorry, but JKR made ALL of the editing changes "by herself."
> 
<snipped JKR quote> 

JKR:

> I have had some criticism from other British writers about allowing 
any
> changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that argument is 
to go
> and tell French and Danish children that we will not be translating 
Harry
> Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.

JKR again:

 And they were literally words 
that
> meant something utterly different - like 'jumper', which means 
'pinafore
> dress' in America. 

Doreen adds:

> Ahem ... does this make JKR an idiot?

Our Lady and Creator is, of course, not an idiot, but She is not 
omnipotent nor infallible.  I respectfully disagree with her judgment, 
and I doubt her complete honesty ("mum" is not "literally [a word] 
that mean[s] something different).  Sorry, but I do.

I also don't think this kind of change is comparable to translating 
the books into French and Dutch.  Translating expressions like 
"jumper" or (this one made me laugh) "pop my clogs" (what Harry, 
according to Hermione, wisely failed to do upon seeing the Grim (PoA 
6)--the U.S. translates it as "kick the bucket") is more comparable to 
translating to a foreign language, though I think a glossary would 
have been a more enjoyable solution; also, in both of these cases, 
context would rapidly make it clear.  Just think:  if I hadn't bought 
the UK edition, I never would have learned the expression "pop one's 
clogs," and just think how much less meaningful my life would be.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Mon Apr  9 19:15:40 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:15:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at1os+ret@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16166

 
> QUESTIONS:
> Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione naive to 
> think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and not publish 
for 
> an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. Isn't that worse than 
> anything Rita has done?
> 

I think Hermione has made a major slip up here and should have turned 
Rita in straight away.  It also seems to me strangely out of character 
for her not to.  Rita has almost certainly heard enough (eg knows 
Sirius is an unregistered animagus) to bargain her way out of trouble 
if she doesn't keep her side of the bargain. More will come of this 
I'm sure. 

Incidently how in the world did Hermione communicate with Rita - I've 
always assumed that animagi in animal form couldn't speak themselves. 
 Did Hermione just lecture the beetle Rita or did she let her 
transform to talk to her?  If so how did she force her back into the 
bottle?

Florence




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 19:21:56 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:21:56 -0000
Subject: Important question about character summaries
Message-ID: <9at24k+8i2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16167

I am currently finishing up the Harry Potter character summary, which 
I was planning on posting late tonight or tomorrow.  However, at 
least 3 people have expressed that they would like to delay the Harry 
discussion because they were dissatisfied with last weeks discussion 
of Ron.  I would be happy to wait on posting the Harry summary, but 
if I do so I think that someone should post some more analysis of 
Young Mr. Weasley.  (I agree that he did not get the attention he 
deserves from us last week.  Poor Ron, always overshadowed by his 
older brothers and his famous friend.)

Perhaps a few more people could weigh in on this question, and maybe 
we could ask Neil to be the final arbiter, since he has the best 
handle on how much flexibility there is in the schedule.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  9 19:10:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:10:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ton tongue toffee ... just desserts
References: <LAW2-F15i0me3abTd9Q00003cdd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <019501c0c12b$132acb20$9114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16168

Yeah, and besides, they just left the toffee lying around.  They didn't
*make* him eat it.


>I didn't find Fred and George unsympathetic at all.  They are fond of
>Harry, and know exactly how Dudley has treated him - he is a bully, a
>coward, and truly a nasty piece of work, which is why they waited for
>someone "deserving" to test it on.  I know, there is a fine line
>between gentle, friendly teasing/practical joking and the more
>sinister maliciousness which becomes bullying. IMO, Fred and George,
>get close, but never ever cross that line.
>
>Catherine
>
**************
This thread interests me because my friend and I left the sardine and the
horseradish BBEFB lying in the dish of otherwise yummy flavored jelly beans.
We, like F&G, thought it was great fun to watch unsuspecting people snitch
the jelly beans, uninvited, and be surprised with a horrible taste sensation
for their rewards. I think it was just desserts.
Doreen, who loves a good, harmless practical joke
***************
_________________________________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  9 19:16:37 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:16:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
References: <e3.12ee7ac5.28023181@aol.com> <00df01c0c075$23e216a0$8614a3d1@doreen> <OE44aSj3U20qjBGnM3b00000d3c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <019601c0c12b$142fb800$9114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16169

China Chick wrote:
What is HPFGU?  Harry Potter For Grown Ups?  If so, Why is that strange?
  From: Doreen

  Is there such a thing in HPFGU, as a strange thought? Someone in HPFGU had
a
  strange thought. Isn't that an oxymoron?

  Doreen, who thinks that would be the same thing as Minnesota having a good
  driver
  *********************
Yes, HPFGU is Harry Potter for Grown Ups. I was just jokingly remarking that
if it were not for all of us having 'strange thoughts' about various
happenings in HP, where would this list be? :)

Doreen, who mostly has thoughts of the strange variety, and whose mother
claims her first sentences were, "Why?" and "What if?"

**********************




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Apr  9 19:29:44 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:29:44 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
Message-ID: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16170

Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he 
plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical information 
because of his Wizarding background.  As late as the 4th book he is 
still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione didn't 
know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants; attitudes of 
house elves).  Here are a few more questions to help keep things 
going during Ron Week:

A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect, 
the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
frequently good in science and mathematics.  How has Ron demonstrated 
his native ability in areas other than the chess board?  

B. Is Ron suffering from depression?  There are a number of clues, 
including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and 
Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his high 
intellect, noted above).  What other signs of depression are found in 
the books?  How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a 
candidate to become a DE?

C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions 
and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in 
canon?

D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the 
Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!) 
affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their 
relationship if Ron finally made the team?

E. Once Gred and Forge leave Hogwarts in Ron's sixth year, Ron will 
be the Senior Weasley at Hogwarts. How might this change his 
behaviors?




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Mon Apr  9 19:39:09 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:39:09 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Squibb Policy
In-Reply-To: <9asq6h+97hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at34t+png0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16171

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> We know Voldy is against Muggle-borns and Muggles, but what are his 
> possible feelings toward Squibbs? Do you think he regards them as 
the 
> same as Muggles?
> 
> :-)Milz

I don't recall reading anything in the books that Voldemort was 
killing Squibbs during his reign, but it wouldn't surprize me if he 
did. He probably views Squibbs as genetic mutants or as inferior as 
muggles.

Demelza





From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Mon Apr  9 19:52:41 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 19:52:41 -0000
Subject: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aougj+1991@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at3u9+qqof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16172

> One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies 
a 
> broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. I 
> realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR hadn't 
> thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should certainly be 
able 
> to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. Maybe he accidentally let 
> his Apparition license expire...

I don't think JKR hadn't thought up Apparition yet.. In the very 
beginning of PS when Dumbledore meets McGonagall at Privet Drive, it 
says "A man appeared on the corner the cat had been watching, 
appeared so suddenly and silently you'd have thought he'd just popped 
out of the ground." To me, that sounds like he apparated to Privet 
Drive... I don't know about the flying to London thing, but I don't 
think it was a flint...




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Apr  9 19:54:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:54:07 -0500
Subject: "We want the Ron Summary; We Want the Ron Summary!"
Message-ID: <3AD2135F.4DD58F56@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16173

Hi --

Poor Ron!  Overshadowed by his brothers, best friends and virtually
everyone else in the canon; ignored or killed off in fanon; and
overshadowed by all the other character discussions on HPforGrownups!
(I'd wager the animal characters got more discussion time than poor Ron
has).   <g>

I agree that this should be remedied.  I had some Ron thoughts that I'd
been holding in abeyance for Ron week.  Thanks to Jim Flanagan for
throwing out some good questions, and I agree that Neil or someone
should throw out others as necessary.  Neil has authored a very fine FAQ
draft on Ron, and I'm sure he could come up with some additional
thoughts to spur discussions.  Maybe Susan will also post the rest of
her summary this week, but I say that we plunge forward with Ron
discussions in the meantime.  (Of course, this likely means I'll miss
the Harry discussions but ....)

Penny




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr  9 20:10:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:10:12 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
In-Reply-To: <9at0il+6lbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at4v4+reaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16174

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Doreen wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, but JKR made ALL of the editing changes "by herself."
> > 
> <snipped JKR quote> 
> 
> JKR:
> 
> > I have had some criticism from other British writers about 
allowing 
> any
> > changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that argument 
is 
> to go
> > and tell French and Danish children that we will not be 
translating 
> Harry
> > Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.
> 
> JKR again:
> 
>  And they were literally words 
> that
> > meant something utterly different - like 'jumper', which means 
> 'pinafore
> > dress' in America. 
> 
> Doreen adds:
> 
> > Ahem ... does this make JKR an idiot?
> 
> Our Lady and Creator is, of course, not an idiot, but She is not 
> omnipotent nor infallible.  I respectfully disagree with her 
judgment, 
> and I doubt her complete honesty ("mum" is not "literally [a word] 
> that mean[s] something different).  Sorry, but I do.
> 
> I also don't think this kind of change is comparable to translating 
> the books into French and Dutch.  Translating expressions like 
> "jumper" or (this one made me laugh) "pop my clogs" (what Harry, 
> according to Hermione, wisely failed to do upon seeing the Grim 
(PoA 
> 6)--the U.S. translates it as "kick the bucket") is more comparable 
to 
> translating to a foreign language, though I think a glossary would 
> have been a more enjoyable solution; also, in both of these cases, 
> context would rapidly make it clear.  Just think:  if I hadn't 
bought 
> the UK edition, I never would have learned the expression "pop 
one's 
> clogs," and just think how much less meaningful my life would be.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
I guess that I should have made my point more clearly, as it seems to 
have been missed. *sigh*

When it was *thought* that 'the American Editors' were the ones at 
fault, it was ok to call them idiots and to make disparaging remarks 
about them. Now, that it is clear that it was not the American 
editors, but rather, JKR, herself, I wonder if she will be called an 
idiot and be criticized as harshly? 

Doreen, who has a personal problem with name calling and most 
negative generalizations.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 20:14:21 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:14:21 -0000
Subject: Important question about character summaries
In-Reply-To: <9at24k+8i2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at56t+k9op@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16175

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> I am currently finishing up the Harry Potter character summary, 
which 
> I was planning on posting late tonight or tomorrow.  However, at 
> least 3 people have expressed that they would like to delay the 
Harry 
> discussion because they were dissatisfied with last weeks discussion 
> of Ron.

Oh, please please please don't delay the Harry discussion!  I am on 
vacation this week and have been looking forward for weeks to be able 
to sit at home and analyze analyze analyze Harry Potter!  I understand 
that people want to spend more time on Ron (I'd like too, too), but 
can't we talk about them both this week?

Just my two cents.

--Jenny from Rav




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 20:16:54 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:16:54 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
In-Reply-To: <9at0il+6lbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at5bm+393i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16176

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Doreen wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, but JKR made ALL of the editing changes "by herself."
> > 
> <snipped JKR quote> 
> 
> JKR:
> 
> > I have had some criticism from other British writers about 
allowing 
> any
> > changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that argument 
is 
> to go
> > and tell French and Danish children that we will not be 
translating 
> Harry
> > Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.
> 
> JKR again:
> 
>  And they were literally words 
> that
> > meant something utterly different - like 'jumper', which means 
> 'pinafore
> > dress' in America. 
> 
> Doreen adds:
> 
> > Ahem ... does this make JKR an idiot?
> 
> Our Lady and Creator is, of course, not an idiot, but She is not 
> omnipotent nor infallible.  I respectfully disagree with her 
judgment, 
> and I doubt her complete honesty ("mum" is not "literally [a word] 
> that mean[s] something different).  Sorry, but I do.
> 
> I also don't think this kind of change is comparable to translating 
> the books into French and Dutch.  Translating expressions like 
> "jumper" or (this one made me laugh) "pop my clogs" (what Harry, 
> according to Hermione, wisely failed to do upon seeing the Grim (PoA 
> 6)--the U.S. translates it as "kick the bucket") is more comparable 
to 
> translating to a foreign language, though I think a glossary would 
> have been a more enjoyable solution; also, in both of these cases, 
> context would rapidly make it clear.  Just think:  if I hadn't 
bought 
> the UK edition, I never would have learned the expression "pop one's 
> clogs," and just think how much less meaningful my life would be.
> 
> Amy Z

> 
> --------------------------------------------------
>  The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
>  stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
>                  -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban

Hear, Hear!  Well said, Amy!  Otherwise, why should we not then change 
the Elizabethan blank verse of Shakespeare, or comb over Dickens, the 
Brontes, and Conan Doyle for those nasty British locutions and 
eliminate them for the more understandable language of The National 
Enquirer?

Haggridd
> --------------------------------------------------




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Apr  9 20:18:00 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:18:00 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at5do+md51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16177

Jim has put forth some very interesting questions about Ron.  I'm 
tied up at work today (I HATE how this money-making thing interferes 
with my obsession!), but as other people answer, I hope to see 
clarification on the following points:

A: Jim said that Ron is arguably the least developed of the trio. Do 
you mean his skills are less impressive than Hermione's or
Harry's, or that his characterization isn't as well developed
as Harry's or Hermione's? I've personally always seen Ron
as one of the better developed characterizations in the book.

B: Jim asks if Ron suffers from depression, and that a clue might be 
his `poor performance in his school work'.  Is there evidence
that Ron is a poor student? We know that Hermione gripes at both the 
boys for being lazy about their homework, but I've never had the 
impression that Harry is a significantly better student than Ron.  
I've always pictured  both as average students who could do very
well if they'd only apply themselves (and quit making up answers
to their Divination homework). 

Penny, I loved your "We Want Ron" post, and please fire away with 
your Ron comments. I have no doubt an interesting discussion is on 
the horizon <g>. And I'll keep my fingers crossed that we get to 
Harry before you have to leave for the delivery room!

Best,
B





From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Mon Apr  9 20:23:54 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:23:54 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at5oq+idk3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16178

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he 
> plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical information 
> because of his Wizarding background.  As late as the 4th book he is 
> still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione 
didn't 
> know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants; attitudes 
of 
> house elves).  Here are a few more questions to help keep things 
> going during Ron Week:
> 
> A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native 
intellect, 
> the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
> large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
> frequently good in science and mathematics.  How has Ron 
demonstrated 
> his native ability in areas other than the chess board?  
> 

The PS/SS states that Hermione wasn't any good at chess. 

> B. Is Ron suffering from depression?  There are a number of clues, 
> including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and 
> Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his high 
> intellect, noted above).  What other signs of depression are found 
in 
> the books?  How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron 
a 
> candidate to become a DE?
> 

Signs of depression include irritability, crying spells or inability 
to cry, feelings of worthlessness or helplessness, isolation, 
diminished interests in activities, poor concentration, fatigue, 
sleeping problems, weight loss or gain, change in appetite. In 
children and adolescents it can manifest as persistent headaches, 
abdominal pains or behavioral problems like truancy, self-destructive 
behavior, substance abuse and of course suicidal gesturings or 
ideation.  Of course, these are very broad perammeters. Looking at 
them though, Harry had depressive tendencies in GoF. 

I think Ron's low self-esteem is exaggerated. His mirror of Erised 
experience doesn't seem atypical. Ron's vision of success and 
accomplishment in PS/SS was to be Head Boy and Captain of the 
Quidditch Team, like Bill and Charlie. Who doesn't desire success and 
accomplishment? What child (or adult for that matter) would feel a 
bit embarrassed if his family cannot afford to buy things as 
elementary as new school books or clothing? What child or adult would 
feel anger about being teased for this "low" socioeconomic status? I 
don't consider that low self-esteem, I consider that normal human 
behavior.

Ron hasn't failed a class, IIRC. In fact, he manages to get by as 
does Harry. For the amount of studying he does (or what the reader is 
allowed to 'see') that's quite an accomplishment. We are told that 
Hermione has the highest marks in that year, but we aren't told where 
Ron or Harry stand.

> C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his 
actions 
> and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors 
in 
> canon?
> 
PS/SS is the book where Ron shows "middle child" behavior. 

> D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the 
> Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!) 
> affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their 
> relationship if Ron finally made the team?
> 

Actually, the books don't mention if Ron has ever tried out for the 
team. If Quidditch was played in GoF, the Gryffindor team would have 
needed a Keeper: the position Oliver Wood held before graduating. 
Speaking from personal experience, I loved figure skating when I was 
younger, but I, sadly, have no talent for it. My physicial ineptitude 
did not dictate my sincerity of my fan status. What I find 
interesting is that Ron likes a loser team and that the motto of the 
team is to "hope for the best". Ron is an optimist.

> E. Once Gred and Forge leave Hogwarts in Ron's sixth year, Ron will 
> be the Senior Weasley at Hogwarts. How might this change his 
> behaviors?

The Weasley children seem pretty 'set' in their personalities. Fred 
and George are the heads of the Hogwarts Weasleys in GoF, yet that 
does not change their prankster activities. I don't think Ron will 
change in how he carries out his "family" responsibility.

Demelza




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon Apr  9 20:27:51 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:27:51 -0000
Subject: flying
In-Reply-To: <9aq1gq+lnut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at607+hi0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16179

RE:  Why did Dumbledore fly to London on a broom near the end of PS, 
rather than just apparating there?

The sender of the urgent message had reason to detain Dumbledore for 
as long as possible while the bad guys were attempting their little 
heist.  The fake note from the MOM could have instructed him not to 
apparate, "for reasons to be explained when he got to London."  This 
would have left him incommunicado for at least the duration of one 
leg of the flight.

An explanation such as this (or any of the explanations that have 
already been proposed up thread) would be sufficient to allow JKR to 
weasel out of this question if she is ever asked.  No harm, no foul, 
no Flint.

-Jim

>> One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies 
>> a broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. 
>> I realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR 
>> hadn't thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should 
>> certainly be able to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. 
>> Maybe he accidentally let his Apparition license expire...
 
> OK, I have a bunch of reasons for this, too.

<snip>

> 4- Actually all McG. says is that "He received an urgent owl from
> the MOM and flew off for London at once."  Maybe what she meant
> is that he flew as far as the edge of Hogwarts grounds and then
> apparated into London, since AS EVERYONE KNOWS it says in 
> Hogwarts, A History that you cant apparate or disapparate in 
> Hogwarts.





From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 20:36:46 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:36:46 -0000
Subject: LOON, Lockhart, funniest scene
Message-ID: <9at6gu+g5fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16180

(I am sorry if 2 versions of this post somehow appear, I tried 
posting it before but it seemed to disappear so I am trying it again.)

In reference to recent posts about L.O.O.N, the League Of Obsessive 
Nitpickers, I want to point out to Haggridd that it was Amy Z, not I 
who proposed him for membership but I heartily concur.  Anyone else 
wishing to join should know that we have an entrance exam consisting 
of 2 questions.  For the first question, you will be locked in a 
small room with only a desk, a chair, and a computer with no Internet 
connection.  You will type out, verbatim, one full chapter of one of 
the four Harry Potter books, which we will pick at random.  For the 
second question, you will write an essay, a minimum of 10 pages long, 
on "Obvious Errors Made by J.K. Rowling in the Harry Potter Books." 
At least 2 pages of this essay will be dedicated to a discussion of 
the evidence, both pro and con, for JKR's claim that there are 1000 
students at Hogwarts.  The entrance exam is waived for anyone 
maintaining a website with more than 100 pages of information on the 
HP books, or for anyone who has written a treatise of over 50,000 
words with a title such as "Who Harry Potter is Really In Love With ? 
Cho, Hermione, Ginny, Ron or the Firebolt."

As for the question of why Dumbledore hired a dolt like Lockhart, 
having been in the unfortunate position of having to hire staff, I 
have to say that it is very, very difficult to tell, on the basis of 
interviews and resumes, whether or not someone is qualified to do 
their job.  Lockhart probably doesn't look bad on paper ? author of 
dozens of books about fighting evil and dangerous creatures.  Besides 
which, he was the only applicant and so better than nothing.  After 
all, he did teach his students not to let pixies loose.  I've had 
worse teachers.

And the funniest scene question, which is a tough one, since there 
are so many.  But I love the subtle and dry humor in this scene:

   Professor Trelawney hesitated, then lowered herself into the empty 
chair, eyes shut and mouth clenched tight, as though expecting a 
thunderbolt to hit the table,  Professor McGonagall poked a large 
spoon into the nearest tureen.
   "Tripe, Sibyll?"


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Mon Apr  9 20:43:41 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:43:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Ron Week]: More Questions
References: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD21EFD.5D66A170@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16181



Jim Flanagan wrote:
> 
> C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions
> and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in
> canon?

To me, he seems to show "middle child" behaviors throughout.  He tends
to seek out attention, but is frequently overlooked and/or compared to
his older brothers.  I've always felt that this is the reason why he
gets so jealous of Harry, too.  He thinks of Harry almost as another
brother, and doesn't like that Harry gets all the attention while he
gets none.
> 
> D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the
> Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!)
> affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their
> relationship if Ron finally made the team?

As someone else stated, I'm not sure that Ron has tried out for the
team.  The Gryffindor team hasn't needed a new player, with the
exception of during their first year, until GoF.  Perhaps next year
we'll see some Quidditch tryouts or something of that nature.  I hope
so, it would be fun!  I'm not sure how being teammates would affect
Ron's relationship with Harry, but I would imagine that, since the
Seeker position is arguably the most important on the team, there would
still be an element of jealousy there.

Great questions, Jim! :)

Barbara :)
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  9 21:15:43 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:15:43 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary:   Fred & George's Back Attack
In-Reply-To: <9ast71+31p5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9at8pv+8o3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16182

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > 
> Or have Harry declared 'deranged and dangerous' and 
> locked up 
> > in St. Mungo's?
> > 
> > Pippin
> 
> > 
> As for the having Harry declared deranged, Rita Skeeter tried it, 
and 
> Dumbledore wouldn't put up with it.  . I'm willing to bet St. 
Mungo's staff would look 
> Harry up and down thoroughly before they accepted him without 
> question...to say nothing of checking with Madame Pomfrey!

Agreed - but still it would be interesting to see what the acute 
psychiatric unit in a Wizards' hospital is like.


     - CMC




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 21:23:55 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:23:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Lavender Brown
References: <9at607+hi0k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012301c0c13b$646a6760$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16183

Howdy, all.

I was wondering if anyone who had a copy of Roald Dahl's "Matilda" handy could do a little checking for me.  I remember a friend of Matilda's, in that book, being Lavender Brown. If memory serves (and I'm in college, so doubting my memory is routine<g>), she snuck a chameleon or a salamander or some such into school to slip into the Headmistress's water pitcher.  
Am I right or am I completly off base?  I loved "Matilda" as a kiddie (quick summary:  genius small girl grows up in horrible family, develops magical powers and scares off evil headmistress, saving her schoolmates' sanity, and is then adopted by her beloved teacher when her crook father flees the country and is moved up to a higher grade, where her powers vanish as her mind is now being properly used...)  I'd be most interested to see if Lavender, indeed, is a homage to Dahl's works, which I have always loved, and which are also wonderfully use magic and fantasy. 

Abbie, who grew up across the street from a library and once called the children's librarian "Mom"
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Flanagan 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, 09 April, 2001 4:27 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: flying


  RE:  Why did Dumbledore fly to London on a broom near the end of PS, 
  rather than just apparating there?

  The sender of the urgent message had reason to detain Dumbledore for 
  as long as possible while the bad guys were attempting their little 
  heist.  The fake note from the MOM could have instructed him not to 
  apparate, "for reasons to be explained when he got to London."  This 
  would have left him incommunicado for at least the duration of one 
  leg of the flight.

  An explanation such as this (or any of the explanations that have 
  already been proposed up thread) would be sufficient to allow JKR to 
  weasel out of this question if she is ever asked.  No harm, no foul, 
  no Flint.

  -Jim

  >> One other little inconsistency is that Dumbledore apparently flies 
  >> a broomstick to London when called there toward the end of SS/PS. 
  >> I realize that it's probably just because of the fact that JKR 
  >> hadn't thought up Apparition yet, since Dumbledore should 
  >> certainly be able to Apparate. But it's a Flint, certainly. 
  >> Maybe he accidentally let his Apparition license expire...

  > OK, I have a bunch of reasons for this, too.

  <snip>

  > 4- Actually all McG. says is that "He received an urgent owl from
  > the MOM and flew off for London at once."  Maybe what she meant
  > is that he flew as far as the edge of Hogwarts grounds and then
  > apparated into London, since AS EVERYONE KNOWS it says in 
  > Hogwarts, A History that you cant apparate or disapparate in 
  > Hogwarts.



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From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Apr  9 21:37:40 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:37:40 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: Extended
In-Reply-To: <9at5do+md51@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ata34+h3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16184

Of course it's extended. We have to give the poor thing *some* perks, 
don't we?

I want to say, up front, that I don't hate Ron. I just dislike him 
sometimes. Ok, often. 

Not in Book 1. Never in book one. I don't think I ever even had a 
negative thought about him in Book 2. 

But in books 3 and 4, even before I began analyzing them, going 
through certain parts line by line, something about Ron started to 
get under my skin, and not in a good way. 

I love the twins. I would have a crush on Bill if (a) he was real, 
and (b) I wasn't married. I respect Charlie, and I'm neutral on 
Percy. I think he's been nasty as often as he's been nice. And I 
haven't seen enough of a maturing Ginny to make any conclusion about 
her that applies to her as she is at 14, which is what she'll be in 
Book 5.

But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron has 
a mean streak sometimes. He can be the most supportive friend, and by 
that I mean he goes all Rah! Rah! for Harry at times (not supportive 
in the "Oh! I *so* understand! sense, but I understand - it's not 
common for 14 & 15 year old boys to spend time talking out their 
*feelings* - I don't take any points away from him for that!)
But if he *thinks* you've dissed him, he gets violent, verbally and 
physically. He's attacked Draco (with provocation, I admit, but he 
has been the one to pull his wand first) and walked out on both Harry 
and Hermione. I am not saying that merely getting into a fight with 
friends is an inherently mean or bad thing, but his refusal to 
apologize BOTH times makes it seem like JKR is *making a point* about 
him. And even at times other than the big fight with Hermione in PoA, 
he is mean to her - yes, mostly about Krum, like when he almost makes 
her cry/does make her cry, at the Yule Ball while Viktor is off 
getting drinks (and then has the gall to look *satisfied* about how 
upset she is). 

I don't know if this is, as Jim asks, a marker for depression, and I 
do doubt that Ron has the clinical markers for it. I do think, 
though, that the DSM-IV has poor performance in school work defined 
as not working up to potential, in which case both Harry and Ron 
might qualify with that as a marker at certain times, but of course, 
not all symptoms would have to be met for a therapist to make such a 
diagnosis. But given the perspective of the book issues, the times 
when such symptoms would manifest, like when he's not speaking to 
Harry, are times when we just don't get to see *what* he's doing, 
other than ignoring poor Harry.

I know the guns are going to go a-blasting from SugarQuill Island for 
this...and I will state, for the record, that Ron has done some great 
things in his time - letting himself be taken during that chess game 
was *great*, and I can't wait to see how it plays out in the film (I 
know I'm going to want to give Rupert a big hug for that scene!) and 
I'm not saying that I think he *is* evil. I'm just saying that if JKR 
makes him be mean to Harry or Hermione in the next book, or Neville 
or Ginny, I may lose the last glimmer of respect that I have for the 
kid. 

I know he's fictional and all, but Harry needs some protecting, even 
against his so-called friends, and Hermione does *not* need an 
emotionally abusive boyfriend.






From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr  9 21:45:22 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:45:22 -0000
Subject: well, as it's still Ron's week...
Message-ID: <9atahi+dkun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16185

Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure 
and innocent who always are the first to die.

Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.

Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.

Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a unicorn 
tail hair at its core. Ron.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 21:48:21 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:48:21 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Lavender Brown
In-Reply-To: <012301c0c13b$646a6760$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9atan5+ur4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16186

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> Howdy, all.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone who had a copy of Roald Dahl's "Matilda" 
handy could do a little checking for me.  I remember a friend of 
Matilda's, in that book, being Lavender Brown. 

Good catch, Starling, although I just thumbed thru Matilda and could 
not find any reference to her friend Lavenders last name.  But I have 
always thought JKR was heavily influenced by Roald Dahl, and looking 
thru Matilda makes me think that the Dursleys are dead ringers for 
Matildas parents, the Wormwoods.  Also, Miss Trunchbull reminds me a 
lot of Snape.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 21:51:09 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 14:51:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Ron Week]: Extended
In-Reply-To: <9ata34+h3l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010409215109.1824.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16187

> I know the guns are going to go a-blasting from SugarQuill Island
> for this...and I will state, for the record, that Ron has done some
> great things in his time - letting himself be taken during that 
> chess game was *great*...

Now that you mention it, I do believe that Ron has been changing
throughout the books.  The chess-playing, intellectual Ron seems to
have vanished.  He seems much more jumpy and physical in the late
volumes.

Can anyone find a reference to Ron playing chess or doing something
otherwise intellectually stimulating in the last two books, at least?






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Apr  9 22:12:01 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:12:01 +0100
Subject: ADMIN/X-POST: Ron goes on (discussion)/details of NEW schedules to Nov 2001!!
Message-ID: <01db01c0c142$3cfeaea0$e93570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16188

Hi everyone!

Okay, by Order of the Department of Time Control; Division of Shifting Schedules, the Ron Weasley discussions have been extended for the rest of this week.   That's right - an extra week of Ron!!  What - it already happened?  Okay, okay....

Now would be a great time to reveal whether you think Ron is destined to remain insecure, jealous and hormonal or is teetering on the brink of becoming brilliant, sexy and psychic.  Don't hold back on those keen thoughts on Harry's beloved 'wheezy'  - he deserves more than a cursory analysis.  How do we know him: let us count the freckles.    

Joy will post her Harry Potter sketch at the beginning of next week and we have now allocated two weeks to that discussion.  My mouth is watering already.  Please see the revised timetable in the files section of the main club (I guess some of you may be picking this up through Announcements - hi to both of you!).  

Also in the Files section of the main list is a completely new schedule, due to start on April 30 and take us up to November and the movie release: it's a combination of chapter summaries from books 1-3 and a variety of sketch topics.  

We need volunteers to write the lead off summaries, particularly for the first few weeks, so please view the table right away and let the Chasers know if you're up for it.  We're seeking able witches and wizards who can string a few sentences together without using the word 'horrid', crack the odd joke and pose a few burning questions.  If you still have all your own teeth, we will consider that a bonus...  

Here's a link to the Files section.  The headings are self-explanatory.  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/

Magically,

Neil
________________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Apr  9 22:21:24 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:21:24 EDT
Subject: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!
Message-ID: <8a.4f9f87b.28038fe4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16189

Woohoo!  Ron week, we are happy now aren't we Cap'n Kathy?!

> Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he 
> plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical information 
> because of his Wizarding background.  As late as the 4th book he is 
> still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione didn't 
> know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants; attitudes of 
> house elves).  Here are a few more questions to help keep things 
> going during Ron Week:
> 

I would argue that Ron is one of the most developed characters in the book.  
He is one of Harry's two best friends - and we have learned a lot about him.  
He may be a little less mature than Hermione, but he's a boy.  He needs time. 
;)

> A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect, 
> the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
> large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
> frequently good in science and mathematics.  How has Ron demonstrated 
> his native ability in areas other than the chess board?  
> 

Perhaps he will make the Quidditch team and take over where Oliver left off. 
Perhaps he will play a key role in the strategy that is used to defeat 
Voldemort once and for all.  

We saw some of his logical thinking is PS/SS when he correctly deduces that 
the enchanted flying key would be silver - like the lock.  As far as science 
or mathematics, we don't really know.  It may be that he is very good in 
these classes.  We do know that he is meticulous when cutting his ingredients 
in Potions class (POA - he has to give his to Malfoy) so perhaps he's very 
good in what seems to be the wizard equivalent to chemistry.  I do think that 
Ron is smarter than many give him credit for.  Not many 11 year olds can 
consistently win at chess the way he does.  That commands a higher level of 
thinking that the majority of children that age do not possess.  


> B. Is Ron suffering from depression?  There are a number of clues, 
> including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and 
> Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his high 
> intellect, noted above).  

I don't think that Ron is suffering from full-blown adolescent depression.  
Although everyone at one time or another can become depressed, I feel that he 
is just going through normal adolescent turmoil.  As far as his grades, I'm 
going to argue that we don't know that Ron (or Harry for that matter) has 
performed poorly in school.  For all we know he could be second only to 
Hermione in their year.  ;)  Hermione does push them to study, and I'm sure 
that it helps.  Perhaps Ron recognizes that being top student is Hermione's 
spotlight and therefore he backs off.  Now I'm not saying that he is a better 
student than her, but maybe he just doesn't say much about or draw much 
attention to his grades.  Some people are not competitive in that arena and 
Ron may be one of those people.  

> How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a 
> candidate to become a DE?
> 

I have very strong opinions on this.  I know that some people think that Ron, 
with his adolescent insecurities, may become an unwitting pawn for the dark 
side.  Of course I wholeheartedly disagree.  Ron has shown steadfast loyalty 
to his friends, family, and pets.  It is my opinion that someone who is sick 
with pain, standing on a broken leg while declaring "You'll have to kill all 
three of us!" is not someone that will be easily swayed toward betraying his 
friends.  IMO, if outright propositioned with, "Money for your friends." Ron 
will not do it for any amount.  I also argue that he is much to smart to be 
tricked or fooled into betraying them.  


> C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions 
> and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in 
> canon?
> 

This is arguable, but I feel that Percy displays more of the typical "middle 
child syndrome" than Ron does.  Percy is an overachiever which is a typical 
attribute.  Also, middle children can sometimes feel alienated from other 
siblings.  I don't think that Ron feels this way as often as Percy does.


> D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the 
> Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!) 
> affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their 
> relationship if Ron finally made the team?
> 

I don't think I've ever noticed Ron feeling jealous over Harry's Quidditch 
abilities.  Being the rabid Quidditch fan that he is, I think that Ron 
recognizes Harry's remarkable ability as a Seeker.  Since Harry has never 
remarked on Ron's abilities it could go either way - he could be remarkable, 
or he could truly stink.  Ron's natural talent at chess does hint at him 
becoming a good Keeper and I do think that he may have some Oliver Wood 
'tendencies'.  Maybe he will lead Gryffindor to their next Quidditch Cup - 
maybe he'll continue cheering from the stands.  We'll have to wait for Book 5 
to find out. :)  


> E. Once Gred and Forge leave Hogwarts in Ron's sixth year, Ron will 
> be the Senior Weasley at Hogwarts. How might this change his 
> behaviors?
> 

I'm a big advocate of the 'Ron will become a Prefect' theory.  As we know JKR 
likes to drop hints and Ron's brother's have remarked (albeit jokingly) that 
he would make an excellent Prefect/Head Boy.  Ron also, IMO, is much more 
like Hermione than Harry in regard to rule breaking.  When Harry is gung-ho 
ready to run out the door, Ron is sometimes hesitant.  He's much more 
inclined to think things through, I think, than Harry.  What really will 
decide whether or not Ron becomes a Prefect (or perhaps Head Boy :) is how 
they actually determine who becomes one.  Do they pick some people, like 
Hermione, because they are naturals for the position?  Perhaps they pick some 
people, like Ron, who if given the position would most definitely rise to the 
occasion.  I must say that I do think that Ron would make an excellent 
Prefect. :)

I truly believe that we will see great things from Ron Weasley.  It's only a 
matter of time!

~Moey
First Mate of the GS R/H, resident of Sugar Quill Island, and
Card carrying member of W.A.I.L.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" 
        -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tanwo at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  9 22:33:39 2001
From: tanwo at hotmail.com (tanwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:33:39 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9aqg99+i21i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atdc3+e8tk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16190

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
> Beginning a sentence with "and" may have passed into common usage, 
but 
> ending a sentence with a preposition can still get you talked about 
> behind your back. *grin*
> 
> Haggridd

For me Winston Churchill summed this up when he said -

This is an absurd pedantry, up with which I will not put.

W   :))




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Apr  9 22:37:07 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:37:07 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: Extended
In-Reply-To: <9ata34+h3l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atdij+lupu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16191

Heidi wrote:
<But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron 
has a mean streak sometimes. <snip> I am not saying that merely 
getting into a fight with friends is an inherently mean or bad thing, 
but his refusal to apologize BOTH times makes it seem like JKR is 
*making a point* about him. >

Ron has definitely pitched his fits and unquestionably has a temper, 
but is JKR trying to show something more with this? I just don't see 
Ron as being that much worse temper-wise than Harry - Harry's just 
more passive with his anger. Harry may not verbalize as much as Ron, 
but many times he echoes Ron's sentiments by *not* talking ? 
the "broom" disagreement being one such example. I don't
think this makes Ron meaner than Harry ? I just think it means
Ron's got a bigger mouth.

Heidi also wrote:
<And even at times other than the big fight with Hermione in PoA, he 
is mean to her - yes, mostly about Krum, like when he almost makes 
her cry/does make her cry, at the Yule Ball while Viktor is off 
getting drinks (and then has the gall to look *satisfied* about how 
upset she is). <clip>

And I'd love to ring his little freckled throat for making her
cry. This is definitely inappropriate behavior, but I think it occurs 
because he doesn't consciously recognize his attraction for
Hermione and has no idea how to vent his anger, not because he just 
has a mean streak. This doesn't make his actions better, of
course, but I think it makes them easier to understand. 

<I know the guns are going to go a-blasting from SugarQuill Island 
for this...>

No, no ? I accidentally threw a knife at Captain Kathy during our 
first summit (I'm not kidding here), so all weapons were
consequently banned from SugarQuill Island. Really, it's safe to 
visit, even if you don't want to live there. And you guys know
you love us - we're fun to argue with. <g>

Off to dance lessons,
B





From inyron at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  9 22:56:06 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:56:06 -0000
Subject: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!
In-Reply-To: <8a.4f9f87b.28038fe4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9atem6+10lp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16192

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:

> > C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his 
actions 
> > and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" 
behaviors in 
> > canon?
> > 
> 
> This is arguable, but I feel that Percy displays more of the 
typical "middle 
> child syndrome" than Ron does.  Percy is an overachiever which is a 
typical 
> attribute.  Also, middle children can sometimes feel alienated from 
other 
> siblings.  I don't think that Ron feels this way as often as Percy 
does.


If I remember my Adler correctly, (who admittedly speaks of first and 
laterborns, and not middle children,) later born children are 
described as being competitive and ambitious, using their older 
siblings as pacesetters, and always striving to catch up with them.  
This makes sense in regards to Percy, being the 
behavioral/status/scholarly overachiever playing to Bill, and with 
the twins, who probably dream being as good at Quidditch as Charlie, 
and as well liked as maybe Bill and Charlie. (cause, ya know, I'm 
pretty sure Bill was well liked.)  And, as Ron realizes, they're all 
pretty much succeeding.  Which is where the next part of Adler's 
theory comes in- if older siblings excel at something in particular, 
laterborns may simply give up trying.  He might have the ability to 
do well, but why bother?  His older siblings have stopped being 
pacesetters and become hindrances.  

As it has been pointed out, chess is really the only thing he's shown 
as having aptitude for.  Percy isn't good at chess.  I'm going out on 
a limb and suggesting George and Charlie and Fred aren't either.  
Bill is, but he's not superchesschampion! And I'd guess he played 
more of a teaching/pacesetting role, hence the achievement there.  If 
the Weasly's had just left some other areas open, we'd be seeing more 
Ron-abilities.  

Poor Ginny, eh?  Except the giving up isn't for all laterborns, just 
some.  She might still be willing to give it the old Weasly go.


inyron

who really hopes she's using her apostrophe's right in this post, or 
at least in this sentance.







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  9 23:18:59 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:18:59 -0000
Subject: Make Us Laugh  - Chapter 37 Filk
Message-ID: <9atg13+gk6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16193

Make Us Laugh (GoF, Chapter 37)

(To the tune of Make `Em Laugh, from Singin' in the Rain )

Dedicated to Pippin, who makes all of HP4GU laugh

(The Scene: Station Nine and Three-Quarters. HARRY has just handed 
over his Triwizards prize money to FRED and GEORGE)

HARRY (spoken)
Take it. I don't want it.

FRED (flabbergasted)
What?

GEORGE (trying to push it back to HARRY)
You're mental!

HARRY
No, I'm not. You take it, and get inventing.

(music)
Make us laugh
Make us laugh
The whole wizard world needs to laugh

Go into business, you guys
Selling joke shop merchandise
Our battle is half-won
If we make fighting Death-Eaters fun

The name of Voldemort produces terror and screams
But you can help us transform our nightmares into dreams
If you offer a great bargain price on Canary Creams
Make us laugh, make us laugh, make us laugh!

Make us laugh 
Make us laugh 
I ask this on all Hogwarts' behalf

FRED
Lupin said, "A boggart will flee
When treated comically."

GEORGE
The best Dark Arts defense
Is the one with a humorous sense

HARRY
If you would practice Curses like the Imperius

GEORGE
You can not be facetious, you must stay serious

FRED
But existence without Dungbombs would be so tedious

ALL
Make `em laugh, make `em laugh, make `em laugh!

FRED AND GEORGE
Make `em laugh 
Make `em laugh 
Let them give this as our epitaph:
"Whenever life went off-key,
They turned to Ton Tongue Toffees!"

HARRY
If Hogwarts we would save
We must learn how not to be too grave

FRED
The next few years may be a time when we lose all hope

HARRY
With misery and horror it will be hard to cope

GEORGE
So we'll send You-Know-Who a bar of our Frog Spawn Soap

ALL
Make `em laugh!......................
Make `em laugh!.......................
Make `em laugh!.......................

     - CMC





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr  9 23:20:03 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:20:03 -0000
Subject: well, as it's still Ron's week...
In-Reply-To: <9atahi+dkun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atg33+c130@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16194

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure 
> and innocent who always are the first to die.
> 
> Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
> 
> Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
> 
> Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a 
unicorn 
> tail hair at its core. Ron.

Maybe he'll gte lucky, and break it again.

   - CMC




From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Mon Apr  9 23:39:14 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 23:39:14 -0000
Subject: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!
In-Reply-To: <8a.4f9f87b.28038fe4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ath72+lotk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16195

Moey - you are my twin aren't you - I had a whole response lined up 
and you said pretty much everything that I wanted to, but I will go 
ahead and put it in my own words...

> > Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he 
> > plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical 
information 
> > because of his Wizarding background.  As late as the 4th book he 
is 
> > still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione 
didn't 
> > know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants; 
attitudes of 
> > house elves).  Here are a few more questions to help keep things 
> > going during Ron Week:

He is? He is the least developed? In what way? I don't think he is 
any less developed than Hermione's character and if he is least 
developed, then a lot of people seem to have a lot of firm ideas on 
him based on very little.  Perhaps people get that impression because 
Ron is closer to an actual child than any of the other students at 
Hogwarts.

> > A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native 
intellect, 
> > the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
> > large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
> > frequently good in science and mathematics.  How has Ron 
demonstrated 
> > his native ability in areas other than the chess board?  

I'll add to everything that Moey said by saying that Ron was a big 
help in working with Hermione and Hagrid towards a case for 
Buckbeak.  Is this foreshadowing for my dream of Ron as Defense 
Attorney?

> > B. Is Ron suffering from depression?  There are a number of 
clues, 
> > including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and 
> > Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his 
high 
> > intellect, noted above).  

Having had very close contact with more than one person who suffers 
from depression, I can say that Ron does not seem to be a prime 
candidate.  He seems pretty well adjusted to me. We don't have 
evidence that he does badly in school (do we?) As a matter of fact, 
his grades are almost always mentioned in conjunction with Harry's as 
being not too bad (but not up to Hermione's standards, of course).  
Although in Book 4, he did demonstrate jealousy of Harry during that 
fight which seems to have damned Ron in many a person's eyes (despite 
Harry's obvious role in the situation), I don't know that I've ever 
seen evidence that he's jealous of Hermione.  I'm not sure that at 
this point in his life, he sees her grades and attentiveness to 
schoolwork as anything that one might be jealous of.  None of the 
depressed people I know would fight the way that Ron does.  They 
might curl up in a ball and lock themselves in their room, but they 
wouldn't throw punches, obviously sulk and be loud about it.  Now 
that I think about it - Harry is the one who seems more likely to 
suffer depression than any of them.

The "turmoil" that Moey mentioned in her post is evident in the book 
s and entirely age appropriate.  Of course he hates being poor.  My 
family wasn't dirt poor when I was growing up, but my mother never 
broke down and bought the fashionable clothes for me, and boy did it 
cause some tantrums as a young teenager.  It never developed into 
anything more evil than that. I got over it and so, I think, will Ron.

> > How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a 
> > candidate to become a DE?

NO! NO! NO! (okay, that was a bit immature, but it's how I feel).  I 
am 100% convinced that Ron won't become a DE, although I'm only 90% 
sure that Harry won't die (grins at Moey)

> > D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the 
> > Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!) 
> > affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their 
> > relationship if Ron finally made the team?

I'm sure that Ron would love to be on the team, but once again, I 
don't see any evidence that it's bothering him that much, except when 
he sees himself as Quidditch captain in the Mirror of Erised first 
year.  He enjoys being a spectator very much, and I suspect that he 
might even be a little relieved that he doesn't have to go through 
what Harry does.  Remember also that in addition to Harry, Ron's two 
older brothers are on the team and their presence may be more of a 
hindrance in his eyes, than Harry.  The first time a position really 
opened up on the Gryffindor team was fourth year, and Quidditch was 
cancelled. I have my fingers crossed that Ron will get to be Keeper 
next year.

I'm worn out.  I'll defend Ron til the end, because really, no matter 
how many *suspicions* people have of him, he hasn't done anything bad 
yet, and until he does (if he does) I'm standing by him as much as I 
stand by Hermione and Harry.  We don't really know that Ron will 
cross over to the other side any more than we know whether or not 
Harry will become a chain-smoking basket-case in constant therapy.

:)Zsenya, who hopes that after Book 7, all of the Weasleys and Harry 
will retire to SugarQuill Island to lounge around in the official SQ 
uniform.






From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 00:12:26 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:12:26 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atj5a+bm9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16196

Great questions, Jim!

The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect, 
> the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
> large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
> frequently good in science and mathematics.  

And music. (((:-)  (Pawn in Frankincense, anyone? [dodges spitwads 
from Ontario])  Ron hasn't, IMO, had a chance to exhibit his 
strategical abilities.  In PoA he was out cold, so Harry had to do 
the strategical thinking for the rescue.  In GoF, he's wrestling too 
much with his demons to take a chess-like attitude either to the 
Triwizard Tournament or the "Unexpected Task".  Ron has, however, 
albeit inconsistently, displayed an ability to be imaginatively 
precise (e.g., his made-up Divinations lessons).  Like Neville's 
talent in Herbology, this doesn't show up as a superstar gift, and 
often he uses it for less-than-admirable purposes--as when he helps 
Harry plot to sneak into Hogsmeade in PoA.  

Ron's talent, as someone noted, seems to be most visible in Potions.  
Unfortunately his younger-sibling underachievement coupled with 
Snape's antagonism trip him up here.  In other classes, he seems to 
have the most trouble with spells that require character, as with the 
Imperius Curse, which he raised his hand to mention--"is it called 
the Imperius Curse, or something?"  That whole exchange says a lot 
about Ron, and incidentally is one example of why I think Ron's 
characterization is not really comparable to Hermione's for strength; 
it seems to develop through pinprick details rather than rich 
sweeping trajectories.  Ron also has trouble doing spells when he's 
irritated or distracted.  But he can knock out a troll at random and 
doesn't, apparently, develop the block about Summoning Charms that 
Harry does.

Ron's Mean Streak.  I have a brother Ron's age.  He's a sweet kid, 
but when he and his friends get together, they love to ridicule as 
much as anyone else.  They are not the popular ones at school--oh how 
I remember the days of Band Nerds Anonymous--but there's not, for 
that reason, a lack of fodder for contemptuous jokes amongst them.  
Harry, having been the butt of many of these jokes because of Dudley, 
isn't inclined to participate in such things; and Hermione is too 
serious about her work to be interested in such immaturity, besides 
being a prime candidate for ridicule herself.  And indeed much of 
Ron's juvenile volcano of ridicule spills over most often on Hermione-
-in PoA it's mentioned that he calls Hermione a bossy know-it-all at 
least twice a week (? I don't have the book).  At the moment, he's 
defending her against Snape.  And speaking of Snape, he has less 
reason than Harry to hate him, but he takes up the cause 
enthusiastically.  It's juvenile insecurity, and it would be plain 
and simple except that, as Lord Peter said about sexual complexes, 
it's usually found attached to a person of some sort.

Which brings me to the mention someone made of Ron as a Prefect.  
Boy, this really surprised me.  I never thought of Ron as Prefect 
potential.  He's too contemptuous for authority figures (I suspect, 
because he feels himself unduly inadequate to them and thus feels he 
has to defend himself) to be an obvious choice.  I can see McGonagall 
choosing him as Prefect to chuck him in at the deep end of the 
authority pond and see if he could swim.  And he probably could, 
although he'd have some difficulty with Harry's nocturnal urges and 
Fred and George's seventh-year senioritis.  However, my choice for 
the Griffindor prefect is Hermione, based on Ron's passing sneer 
about Hermione acting like a *prefect* and Hermione's hurt 
response, "You say that like it's a bad thing."  (Can't look this one 
up either--I hate lending books.)  Also, Hermione's star-student 
status, especially as noticed and encouraged by McGonagall, makes her 
a more likely choice.  Query:  is there only one Prefect per House?  

And finally, my biggest beef and paradoxically my greatest sympathy 
with Ron:  The boy can't admit he's wrong to save his life.  I wanted 
to throw something at him all through PoA.  He never did admit to 
Hermione that he'd been unfair about Scabbers's disappearance; in GoF 
it takes Harry being in a life-threatening situation for Ron to wake 
up out of his jealousy and stutter "No--I shouldn't've--"...  And 
after the Horntail scene, he's trying to cover his backside by 
joining in on the suspicion toward Karkaroff ("by the time they 
reached the Owlery he was saying they should have suspected it all 
along.  'Fits, doesn't it?'"...)  He scorns Hermione for trying to 
think realistically about the rest of the Tournament ("Right little 
ray of sunshine, aren't you?  You and Professor Trelawney should get 
together sometime.")  I'm not saying he didn't learn anything in GoF; 
but his defense--scorn the other and pretend you're still right even 
when you're wrong--is still his standard defense and he's still 
struggling with it.

Will this turn him into a DE?  No, don't think so.  Will it make him 
a dupe? i.e., will he at some crisis choose what is "easy" rather 
than right?  I think he's in danger of that as he is right now.  I 
expect that, if Hermione becomes a prefect and Ron's relationship 
with her grows more volatile (for whatever reason [waving at the 
shippers from her landlubber perch on--Cape Hatteras or something]), 
this struggle of his is bound to become more paramount to the plot, 
not less.

I love Ron, though I would really love to slap him sometimes.  So 
just excuse me while I slap my brother.

Whoo, that was long.  But it was fun.  :)

Lisa







From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 00:26:57 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:26:57 -0000
Subject: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!
In-Reply-To: <9ath72+lotk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atk0h+lnmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16197

Hmmm... I would say, as far as character development goes, we know a 
lot less about Dumbledore than we do about Ron.  I find him not only 
well developed, but a very real 14 year old boy who is prone to mood 
swings, feelings of inferiority, being tongue-tied around pretty 
girls, and fighting to be heard in a large family.

I noticed something about Ron that I think is very clever on the part 
of JKR: whenever a snide remark is made, it is always Ron who says it 
out loud.  We often read Harry's thoughts, but he rarely says 
emotional, biting, or extremely clever things out loud.  That seems to 
be Ron's job.  He is the one who can sometimes verbalize what Harry 
doesn't have the nerve to say, or what we as the readers wish we could 
say but for obvious reasons cannot.  Therefore, Ron is also open to 
attack by us, Hermione, Professor Trelawney, Percy...

I understand why people say Ron has a mean streak - he certainly does.  
I also think that Ron is fairly up front with his feelings, and is 
always trying to communicate, even though he doesn't always do it 
well.  He does come from a loving family, even if he tends to 
occasionally get lost in the shuffle (I think Ginny has it worse, by 
the way), and knows he will be forgiven for misbehaving or having a 
bad attitude once in a while.  

As far as plot development goes, we all know the Weasleys are an 
excellent source of wizard information for Harry, a symbol of 
tolerance and open mindedness, and a place for Harry to see what a 
real and good family is like, wizard or muggle.

'Nuff said.

--Je




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 00:45:20 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:45:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Misuse of Magic (was Chapter 37 Summary)
Message-ID: <F245StMVhEUsebmspH200004865@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16198


Just throwing out my two knuts, doesn't Hermione say in PS/SS that she had 
not only been memorising her textbooks by heart, but also tried some simple 
spells, which all worked for her???  I'm going off memory here, since the 
books are not at my disposal.  So wouldn't that fall under Misuse of Magic 
by an Underage Wizard?

Thoughts, anyone?

Crystal - who wishes that she could memorize her textbooks too.....

>From: "Indigo" <indigo at indigosky.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 37 Summary
>Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:29:40 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
Will they be receiving owls from the
> > > Improper Use of Magic
> > > Office>
> > As for improper use of magic, I seem to recall the use
> > of magic on the Hogwarts Express before.
>
>It's my guess that the train is considered Neutral Ground.
>>I daresay they let the kids magic their hearts out on their ride home
>to get it out of their systems; because it'll be *months* before
>they're allowed to do so again (unless, like Ron, they come from a
>huge all-wizard family).
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 00:49:18 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: well, as it's still Ron's week...
In-Reply-To: <9atahi+dkun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410004918.52443.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16199

--- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that
> it is the pure 
> and innocent who always are the first to die.
> 
> Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time
> around.
> 
> Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its
> core.
> 
> Only one other character is mentioned as having a
> wand with a unicorn 
> tail hair at its core. Ron.

GAH!  Bite your TONGUE!  Besides, IIRC, the only wand
of Ron's that's mentiond as having a unicorn hair is
the one he has in PS/SS, and he gets a new wand in
PoA.  As his old wand was Charlie's, he might favor a
completely different kind of wand when it's *his*
choice.


Andrea II


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 00:45:54 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:45:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: well, as it's still Ron's week...
References: <20010410004918.52443.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD257C2.236C7C41@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16200



Andrea wrote:

> Real-To:  Andrea <ra_1013 at yahoo.com>
>
> --- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> > Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that
> > it is the pure
> > and innocent who always are the first to die.
> >
> > Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time
> > around.
> >
> > Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its
> > core.
> >
> > Only one other character is mentioned as having a
> > wand with a unicorn
> > tail hair at its core. Ron.
>
> GAH!  Bite your TONGUE!  Besides, IIRC, the only wand
> of Ron's that's mentiond as having a unicorn hair is
> the one he has in PS/SS, and he gets a new wand in
> PoA.  As his old wand was Charlie's, he might favor a
> completely different kind of wand when it's *his*
> choice.

No, that's a unicorn tail - "Look at this," said Ron, pulling a long thin box out of a bag and
opening it. "Brand-new wand. Fourteen inches, willow, containing one
unicorn tail-hair. And we've got all our books --" He pointed at a large
bag under his chair. "What about those Monster Books, eh? The assistant
nearly cried when we said we wanted two."





From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 01:03:59 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:03:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Evil Ron?
In-Reply-To: <9atdij+lupu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410010359.13007.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16201

--- bbennett at joymail.com wrote:
> Ron has definitely pitched his fits and
> unquestionably has a temper, 
> but is JKR trying to show something more with this?
> I just don't see 
> Ron as being that much worse temper-wise than Harry
> - Harry's just 
> more passive with his anger.

Harry also has 11 years of experience with the
Dursleys that his best course of action is to just
shut up and stay out of the way.  Ron, on the other
hand, grew up in a house full of older brothers.  I
think he learned to eat or be eaten. ;)

I canNOT see Ron as a Death Eater under any
circumstances.  As has been said previously, he's
shown a great deal of loyalty to his family and
friends.  The angriest he's ever gotten, IMO, were
when Hermione was insulted by Malfoy and when his
beloved pet was revealed as Wormtail.  Most of the
times I recall him getting into fights were when
either his friends or his family were insulted. 

And I'm sorry, but anyone who will let himself be
taken down by violent chess pieces to help his
friends, go into the Chamber of Secrets to face an
unknown evil in order to save his sister and support
his friend, stand on a broken leg and offer to act as
a human shield to protect his friend's life, and give
up precious time studying for finals to research an
appeal for his friend's *pet* is NOT a candidate for
being a Death Eater.

> And I'd love to ring his little freckled throat for
> making her
> cry. This is definitely inappropriate behavior, but
> I think it occurs 
> because he doesn't consciously recognize his
> attraction for
> Hermione and has no idea how to vent his anger, not
> because he just 
> has a mean streak. This doesn't make his actions
> better, of
> course, but I think it makes them easier to
> understand. 

He's also a 14 year old boy.  They pull your hair on
the playground and call you names to show that they
*like* you.  I'm amazed Ron has gotten along as well
as he has with Hermione. ;)



Andrea II, putting up her "Don't Mess With Ron" bumper sticker

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 01:06:05 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:06:05 -0500
Subject: Ron Week: More Questions
References: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD25C7D.AF595522@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16202

Hi --

I will preface my remarks by saying that I came to roughly the same
conclusion about Ron that Heidi expressed earlier.  I liked him alot in
Books 1 & 2.  But, PoA made me slightly uneasy about Ron, and GoF
*really* made me uneasy about Ron.  More than uneasy really .... while I
don't *hate* Ron, I do dislike the person that he seems to be becoming.
I don't like what I saw in GoF honestly.  More on that in a minute ....

> B. Is Ron suffering from depression?  There are a number of clues,
> including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and
> Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his high
> intellect, noted above).  What other signs of depression are found in
> the books?  How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a
> candidate to become a DE?

Like others, I would say that I don't think Ron performs all that badly
academically.  I have the feeling that he & Harry are right about the
same level and that while both of them could better if they applied
themselves more, neither of them are doing all that bad.  I figure
they're both above-average -- what we Americans might think of as "B"
students.  There's no real clear evidence either way, but my impression
matches up with the Ron supporters on this issue.  :--)

I don't think Ron is a candidate to become a DE.  Not really.  I can
imagine a scenario in which this is possible, but it could just be a
highly active imagination on my part.  <g>  I think if FITD were to play
out and if Ron knew that Hermione had feelings for Harry, he might take
conscious action against Harry impulsively.  But, this is not by far the
most likely scenario in my mind.

Which leads me to -- is it possible that he might become an unwitting
pawn of the Dark Side?  Do his jealousies, insecurities and ambition
make him a very real target?  I say absolutely.

> Mo wrote: It is my opinion that someone who is sick
> with pain, standing on a broken leg while declaring "You'll have to kill
> all three of us!" is not someone that will be easily swayed toward betraying
> his friends.  IMO, if outright propositioned with, "Money for your friends."
> Ron will not do it for any amount.  I also argue that he is much to smart to be
> tricked or fooled into betraying them.
>
Well, I don't know anyone who really believes that Ron would
*intentionally* betray his friends.  I certainly don't think he'd betray
his friends for money if presented with the situation that you describe
above.  But, you're describing an intentional act of betrayal & deceit.

As I mentioned above, I don't really question Ron's intellect so much.
He's great at chess, and as Jim noted, this signals a high level of
intellect for Ron.  He could have better grades if he applied himself
more -- that seems clear.  But, here's my thought on Ron & an unwitting
betrayal scenario.  Ron has consistently demonstrated a tendency to make
impulsive, impetuous, ill-considered judgments & decisions.  He doesn't
"look before he leaps" in other words.  He's got a hot temper for one
thing, although that in my mind is not the characteristic that I think
will be his downfall.  I think it's the tendency to jump to conclusions
-- skipping several logical steps along the way.  This trait got
*really* emphasized in GoF IMHO.

And yet, one has to wonder.  If he's got the logical skills to be so
good at chess, how is it (or *why* is it) that he doesn't use those
skills very effectively when he's presented with situations requiring
deductive reasoning/logic in other areas?  I would argue that it's
partially attributable to insecurity.  He feels the need to make a quick
pronouncement -- competing with Hermione perhaps.  He doesn't take the
time to really think things through and so, he ends up being wrong alot
of the time (and looking foolish in places).  This is very much at odds
with his early-on characterization in PS/SS as such a great strategical
thinker.  He really hasn't demonstrated that skill much since then
(other than the occasional reference to a chess match).  So, I'm sorry I
can't buy into the whole "Ron will play a pivotal role in coming up with
a strategy that defeats Voldemort" school of thought.

Moody (granted Crouch-as-Moody) declined to extend Ron the compliment he
so obviously wanted: he wanted to be told that he too had the makings of
an auror.  He never got that recognition -- and I think alot of that has
to do with his propensity to make impetuous decisions & arguments.

I had a number of examples in mind while I was listening to the GoF
tapes a few weeks ago, and darn it all, I should have written them all
down since I now can't recall them all.  But, there are some obvious
ones that come to mind.  First, he jumps to conclusions (and stubbornly
refuses to listen to reason (if you assume Hermione was talking to him
about Harry's situation) with respect to his best friend -- the
Harry/Ron fight of course.  Someone mentioned awhile back that Ron
always thinks that the bad guy is Snape.  He doesn't seem to have the
ability to see Snape as a mean person who also happens to be on the
"right side."  Ch 27 -- the conversation with Sirius in the cave -- has
several examples of Ron leaping to conclusions hastily (including, IMO,
his pronouncement as they're walking back to the castle that Percy would
betray his family for his career).  The beginning of Ch 29 -- even more
examples of over-eager & ill-considered judgments on Ron's part.  Same
chapter -- the conversation among the Trio & Crouch-as-Moody -- more
examples.  See page 606 (US ed.) -- he is quick to judge Madame Maxime
as a viable candidate for murderer of Crouch, Sr., mainly on the grounds
that she has giant blood (a judgment that sure doesn't win him any
points with Hermione, the liberal do-gooder, I might add!).

I agree with Heidi's assessments re: his mean streak.  He really can be
hurtful, and he doesn't apologize for it.  He's not the most sensitive
bloke after all.  He's just flat-out not very perceptive.  This could
change of course, but as of the end of GoF, I think Ron has *alot* of
maturing to do.

So, he's jealous, ambitious & insecure.  He's prone to forming
ill-considered conclusions & leaping before he looks.  He's not very
perceptive.  He's vulnerable to the Imperius Curse -- something else
that I think JKR subtly highlights in GoF.  He seems a bit too ready to
judge people based on preconceived notions -- giants & house-elves for
example.  He's stubborn to a fault -- I agree with everyone who has
commented that he has yet to really admit to being wrong or apologize
for the things he's done to his friends.

I think all of this points to a possibility that Ron could be an
unwitting pawn of the Dark Side -- an easy target really IMO.

> C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions
> and attitudes?  Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in
> canon?

Someone else argued that Percy demonstrates the middle-child behaviors
most, but my impression is that Percy could well be the oldest child.
He's such a Type A, over-achiever type -- I've always associated this
type behavior with the eldest child.  There's such a gap between
Bill/Charlie & the Percy/twins/Ron/Ginny grouping that Percy could
effectively function in the oldest child role very easily.  Ron does
seem to exhibit some middle-child behavioral characteristics, although
he is the youngest son -- the twins seem the ones most in the middle.

> D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the
> Gryffindor team.  How has Harry's success (in his first year!)
> affected their relationship?  Would it be a good thing for their
> relationship if Ron finally made the team?

I can't imagine that this *doesn't* affect their friendship.  It's just
one more thing that Ron probably has some jealousy over, although in
fairness, I can't say that I can think of a single example supporting
him being jealous of Harry's Quidditch skills or place on the team.  I
just figure that he's jealous about so many other things that Harry's
role on the team & obvious talent have probably not gone unnoticed by
Ron.

Okay -- fire away SugarQuillers.  Maybe I'll go into labor & I won't
have to defend my theories!  Just kidding .... just kidding.  <g>

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 01:17:21 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ron's wand
In-Reply-To: <3AD257C2.236C7C41@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <20010410011721.66609.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16203

--- heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
> No, that's a unicorn tail - "Look at this," said
> Ron, pulling a long thin box out of a bag and
> opening it. "Brand-new wand. Fourteen inches,
> willow, containing one
> unicorn tail-hair. And we've got all our books --"
> He pointed at a large
> bag under his chair. "What about those Monster
> Books, eh? The assistant
> nearly cried when we said we wanted two."

[SOB!] I was trying to delude myself, thank you very
much. [sigh] I think if any Weasely brother dies,
it'll be Percy.  BTW, I *don't* believe that Percy
will become a DE.  I think he would take Crouch Sr's
approach instead and become absolutely *vicious* in
the elimination of evil.


Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 01:18:45 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:18:45 -0000
Subject: Sugar Quill Island??
In-Reply-To: <3AD25C7D.AF595522@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9atn1l+antp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16204

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 

> Okay -- fire away SugarQuillers.  Maybe I'll go into labor & I won't
> have to defend my theories!  Just kidding .... just kidding.  <g>
> 


Uhmmmm... Could someone explain what Sugarquillers are to me? Sorry, I 
am missing something here....

Thanks!

Suzanne




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 01:26:40 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 18:26:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ron Week: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <3AD25C7D.AF595522@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010410012640.67341.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16205

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
wrote:
> Moody (granted Crouch-as-Moody) declined to extend
> Ron the compliment he
> so obviously wanted: he wanted to be told that he
> too had the makings of
> an auror.  He never got that recognition -- and I
> think alot of that has
> to do with his propensity to make impetuous
> decisions & arguments.

Maybe because Crouch recognized that Ron really *did*
have the makings of a great Auror and wanted to
squelch any possible thoughts of going in that
direction by specifically telling H&H they'd make good
Aurors in his presence and then not telling Ron the
same thing.  Remember, many of Moody's
supposedly-supportive actions are actually very
devious when looking back with the knowledge of his
true identity. (ie, supporting Neville by telling him
he was good in Herbology, when it was really just an
excuse to plant the book for Harry)

> He's vulnerable to the Imperius Curse
> -- something else
> that I think JKR subtly highlights in GoF. 

As I recall, Harry was the only one who was able to
successfully fight off the curse.  Ron was hardly
alone in that regard.  I *have* wondered, though, why
Moody/Crouch would teach Harry how to fight off the
curse?

> He seems
> a bit too ready to
> judge people based on preconceived notions -- giants
> & house-elves for
> example.  

Harry and Hermione didn't grow up in wizard families
and therefore don't have the usual prejudices.  If H&H
had been talking to Neville or Seamus, for example,
the conversation might've gone much the same way.


Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 01:29:29 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:29:29 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9atj5a+bm9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atnlp+rjcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16206

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> Great questions, Jim!
> 
> The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect, 
> > the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a 
> > large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are 
> > frequently good in science and mathematics.  

Ron's day is yet to come IMO.  I still say that he needs a Subplot Or 
Two Of His Own.  

I also agree that the Ron of PS/SS is morphing into a VERY different 
character... one who is making me nervous.  I'm reading Tolkien for 
the very first time since age 14, and for some reason, Ron and the 
rings are just bouncing off one another in my head.

> And music. (((:-)  (Pawn in Frankincense, anyone? [dodges spitwads 
> from Ontario])  Ron hasn't, IMO, had a chance to exhibit his 
> strategical abilities. 

Yes, yes, yes!  I think that in developing so many other characters, 
JKR has left Ron pretty much on the back burner of things in the last 
two books.  I'd like to see him take a more active role in things 
just as he did in PS/SS.

>In PoA he was out cold, so Harry had to do 
> the strategical thinking for the rescue.  

And Hermione's Time-Turner was the key to setting things right.  
Ron's rat, however, was partly responsible for making things wrong in 
the backstory.  Now, SugarQuillers, *put. down. those. 
flamethrowers.*, I'm not blaming Ron for Scabbers/Pettigrew.  Not at 
all.  But "why is everything I own rubbish" is a telling remark.

Ron is emphatically *not* as developed as Hermione.  Compare the 
Hermione FAQ to the Ron FAQ.  When I decided to think and write about 
Ron last fall, I combed through canon three times with notebook in 
hand, jotting down pages.  I was disappointed... Ron's there, but 
then he's not there.

Again, *Ron needs to be center stage more*.  He can't just be there 
for comic relief.  JKR's too good of a storyteller for that.


> In GoF, he's wrestling too 
> much with his demons to take a chess-like attitude either to the 
> Triwizard Tournament or the "Unexpected Task".  Ron has, however, 
> albeit inconsistently, displayed an ability to be imaginatively 
> precise (e.g., his made-up Divinations lessons).  Like Neville's 
> talent in Herbology, this doesn't show up as a superstar gift, and 
> often he uses it for less-than-admirable purposes--as when he helps 
> Harry plot to sneak into Hogsmeade in PoA.  

Yes, I agree!  Ron is wrestling.  

I teach kids like Ron--and no, Ron is NOT like all 14 year old boys, 
or even a "typical" 14 year old boy.  What on earth is typical, 
anyway?  Whenever I hear this, it annoys me.  It always annoys me 
when excuses are made for kids who are "showing out" for whatever 
reason.  We've all got problems.

You'd think my students would hate me for my refusal to cater to 
their hormones.  They don't.  Not even the Rons.

The last thing Ron needs is to be babied and pitied.  He's growing 
into a man.  I want him to have his chance to shine.

And when he does, it doesn't have to be at the expense of Harry, 
either.  The argument "Ron needs something Harry doesn't have" flies 
right over my head.  I never understood what one friend's success had 
to do with the other.  Besides, (Ebony repeats for the HUNDREDTH time 
since July) RON DOES HAVE SEVERAL THINGS THAT HARRY DOES NOT.

1)  Parents
2)  Siblings (love 'em or hate 'em, in the long run they're good to 
have)
3)  Fresh air and sunshine on a regular basis up until the age of 11
4)  Toys as a kid (at least a teddy bear)
5)  Insights into the world he has to grow up in
6)  Probably was allowed to eat as much as he wanted, where Harry was 
not (see first Sorting Feast) 
7)  People to play with who didn't beat the crap out of him (okay, 
I'll allow that Gred and Forge may have on occasion, but...) 
8)  A broomstick before he started school (mentioned in CoS--it was 
only a Shooting Star, but still... it was *something*!)
9)  The overall benefit of having people in life who *will* love you 
unconditionally (from birth)
 
Could think of more, but I'm tired.

I'm *sure* Ron will sit back and count his blessings sometime during 
the summer between GoF and Book 5 (the longest summer on record in 
the Muggle world).  And don't tell me that 14 year old boys don't 
pause for introspection.  Remarks like that let me know that people 
don't mix with kids very often.

Kids aren't half as shallow as some seem to think.
  
> Ron's talent, as someone noted, seems to be most visible in 
Potions.  

He cuts up dandelion roots neatly.  What else?

When I was in college, I did street evangelism.  I'm going to finally 
uuse some of the lingo that some of the people we witnessed to 
did.  "Recite chapter and verse, please."

Please, someone show me this in canon.  I'd like to know.

> Unfortunately his younger-sibling underachievement coupled with 
> Snape's antagonism trip him up here.  In other classes, he seems to 
> have the most trouble with spells that require character, as with 
the Imperius Curse, which he raised his hand to mention--"is it 
called the Imperius Curse, or something?"  That whole exchange says a 
lot about Ron, and incidentally is one example of why I think Ron's 
> characterization is not really comparable to Hermione's for 
strength; it seems to develop through pinprick details rather than 
rich sweeping trajectories.  

All interesting points.  I especially like that last sentence.

It seems to me that the space in which Ron's character could have 
been developed more has been occupied by Weasley family development 
in general. 

> Ron's Mean Streak.  I have a brother Ron's age.  <snip of some good 
stuff!> And indeed much of Ron's juvenile volcano of ridicule spills 
over most often on Hermione -in PoA it's mentioned that he calls 
Hermione a bossy know-it-all at least twice a week (? I don't have 
the book).  At the moment, he's defending her against Snape.  And 
speaking of Snape, he has less reason than Harry to hate him, but he 
takes up the cause enthusiastically.  It's juvenile insecurity, and 
it would be plain and simple except that, as Lord Peter said about 
sexual complexes, it's usually found attached to a person of some 
sort.
>

Hmm.  Will wait to see what others have to say on this.

> 
> And finally, my biggest beef and paradoxically my greatest sympathy 
> with Ron:  The boy can't admit he's wrong to save his life.  >

Okay, *that* must be it.  Everything you cited, Lisa, stuck in my 
memory long after I finished the book.  I just didn't get it.  At 
all.  Nothing anyone's posted for the past ten months has made me get 
it any better, either.  I suppose only JKR and Book 5 will be able to 
do it. 

> Will this turn him into a DE?  No, don't think so.  Will it make 
him > a dupe? i.e., will he at some crisis choose what is "easy" 
rather > than right?  I think he's in danger of that as he is right 
now.  I> expect that, if Hermione becomes a prefect and Ron's 
relationship> with her grows more volatile (for whatever reason 
[waving at the > shippers from her landlubber perch on--Cape Hatteras 
or something]),> this struggle of his is bound to become more 
paramount to the plot, > not less.
>

Whoop, there it is.  ;-)  Couldn't have said it better myself.  
However, although I can kiss terra firma one in a while with relief 
("get me OFF this ship for a minute"), "the sea is in me blood".
 
> I love Ron, though I would really love to slap him sometimes.  

That's my position when all is said and done, too, Lisa.

--Ebony




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 01:25:03 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:25:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
References: <20010410012640.67341.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16207

I'm just wondering something....

Andrea wrote:

> --- Penny wrote:
>
> > He seems
> > a bit too ready to
> > judge people based on preconceived notions -- giants
> > & house-elves for
> > example.
>
> Harry and Hermione didn't grow up in wizard families
> and therefore don't have the usual prejudices.  If H&H
> had been talking to Neville or Seamus, for example,
> the conversation might've gone much the same way.
>

Just a question I'm tossing out here:
How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house elves because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to (a) consider the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against muggle-born witches & wizards, and (b)
forgive him those?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 01:38:00 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:38:00 -0000
Subject: Evil Ron?
In-Reply-To: <20010410010359.13007.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ato5o+rjkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16208

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > And I'd love to ring his little freckled throat for
> > making her
> > cry. This is definitely inappropriate behavior, but
> > I think it occurs 
> > because he doesn't consciously recognize his
> > attraction for
> > Hermione and has no idea how to vent his anger, not
> > because he just 
> > has a mean streak. This doesn't make his actions
> > better, of
> > course, but I think it makes them easier to
> > understand. 
> 
> He's also a 14 year old boy.  They pull your hair on
> the playground and call you names to show that they
> *like* you.  I'm amazed Ron has gotten along as well
> as he has with Hermione. ;)


Um... 14 year old boys actually do this?  At age 14?  Still?

Could just be me.  But that really sounds like behavior a kid 2-5 
years younger would exhibit.

Even my thirteen year old boys don't do this.  My fifth graders (ages 
10-11) would, but most of my girls would sock the crap out of them if 
they tried it.

--Ebony (who teaches at a K-8 school, grades 5-8, and does A LOT of 
observation)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 01:48:11 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:48:11 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <20010410012640.67341.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9atoor+tisk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16209

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> wrote:
> > Moody (granted Crouch-as-Moody) declined to extend
> > Ron the compliment he
> > so obviously wanted: he wanted to be told that he
> > too had the makings of
> > an auror.  He never got that recognition -- and I
> > think alot of that has
> > to do with his propensity to make impetuous
> > decisions & arguments.
> 
> Maybe because Crouch recognized that Ron really *did*
> have the makings of a great Auror and wanted to
> squelch any possible thoughts of going in that
> direction by specifically telling H&H they'd make good
> Aurors in his presence and then not telling Ron the
> same thing.  Remember, many of Moody's
> supposedly-supportive actions are actually very
> devious when looking back with the knowledge of his
> true identity. (ie, supporting Neville by telling him
> he was good in Herbology, when it was really just an
> excuse to plant the book for Harry)


This argument's only good if you believe that Crouch-as-Moody was not 
acting for all intents and purposes, a lot like the real Moody would 
act.  We've had this discussion before on list.  Many of us feel that 
Crouch would have had to act almost exactly like Moody to avoid 
detection.

So, what you're saying is that Crouch-as-Moody's intent is to 
discourage Ron from becoming an Auror because he'd be good at it?

What qualities makes up a good Auror?


> > He's vulnerable to the Imperius Curse
> > -- something else
> > that I think JKR subtly highlights in GoF. 
> 
> As I recall, Harry was the only one who was able to
> successfully fight off the curse.  Ron was hardly
> alone in that regard.  I *have* wondered, though, why
> Moody/Crouch would teach Harry how to fight off the
> curse?
> 

See above.  The Crouch-as-Moody plot is something we've picked 
apart... and one issue that many members have cited as being a reason 
why PoA is their favorite book and not GoF.  The Not!Moody revelation 
really came out of the blue, with very few clues.

Although it's not Potter Week yet, I'd like to note that the first 
time Harry made me scratch my head in GoF was when he fought off that 
curse.


> > He seems
> > a bit too ready to
> > judge people based on preconceived notions -- giants
> > & house-elves for
> > example.  
> 
> Harry and Hermione didn't grow up in wizard families
> and therefore don't have the usual prejudices.  If H&H
> had been talking to Neville or Seamus, for example,
> the conversation might've gone much the same way.
> 

Growing up in an environment that is filled with prejudice does *not* 
absolve you from the responsibility to denounce it in all its forms.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 01:53:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:53:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
References: <20010410012640.67341.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <3AD267A7.241CD9C3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16210

heidi wrote:

> Just a question I'm tossing out here:
> How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house
> elves because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to
> (a) consider the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against
> muggle-born witches & wizards, and (b)forgive him those?

Big ol', BIG ol' difference between explaining something and excusing
it. Showing the basis for the belief does not necessarily forgive it.

Ron handily overcame the "giant" and "werewolf" conditioning, and I'd
bet he'd listen to the "house-elf" stuff more if they themselves weren't
their own worst advocates. Draco's taking his prejudices and running
with them.

--Amanda, who thinks all the talk of Ron being impulsive and acting
before he thinks reminds her of what Sirius must have been like as a
teenager.....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 01:55:26 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:55:26 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9atp6e+tnvh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16211

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> I'm just wondering something....
> Just a question I'm tossing out here:
> How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house 
elves because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to 
(a) consider the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against muggle-
born witches & wizards, and (b)
> forgive him those?
> 


Now, Heidi dear, you should know that what's good for Ron isn't 
necessarily good for poor ickle misunderstood Draco.  ;-)  (j/k)

I can say one thing about Ron, though... he tends to give people the 
benefit of the doubt once he knows them.  He was a bit repulsed by 
the idea of Lupin as a werewolf at first, but after a while, gets 
over it.  He may have had the same "moment" with Hagrid once he 
learns he's half-Giant.

Draco, on the other hand, can't see past the surface.  That is, he 
can't get past the "otherness" of the person or creature he's been 
bred to hate.  Which, when you think about it, makes Draco a much 
more tragic kid than Ron.

I just thought of something else.  Ron may have grown up in a 
wizarding family, but that wizarding family is the Weasleys (I *love* 
that family!).  I wonder what Arthur and Molly's attitude towards 
werewolves and giants is?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From wings909 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 02:11:08 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:11:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sugar Quill Island??
Message-ID: <80.971cccf.2803c5bc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16212

go to www.sugarquill.com  You shall find all the answers there : )


Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 02:13:30 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:13:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil Ron?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F99QtgTIFprhMO00000a82@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16213

>
>He's also a 14 year old boy.  They pull your hair on
>the playground and call you names to show that they
>*like* you.  I'm amazed Ron has gotten along as well
>as he has with Hermione. ;)
>
>
>
>Andrea II, putting up her "Don't Mess With Ron" bumper sticker
>
Not to mention how well he gets along with Harry!  Really, for a boy who has 
been overshadowed by his bigger, stronger, cleverer, better-looking and more 
successful brothers all his life, he is positively saintly in his loyalty to 
his smarter, more famous friends!

I was glad he had his quarrel with Harry - I was beginning to wonder if he 
was human.  OK, he is a bit mean to Hermione, but then she never apologised 
over the Crookshanks-Scabbers incident either (I know there was nothing to 
apologise for in the end, but there was a long period of time when no-one 
knew that.)

I know he has his less-than-perfect moments but he is a real, believable 
*boy*, not a hero like Harry.  I also wonder, from other postings, whether 
there is a cultural factor - I think a lot of Ron's negativity, pessimism, 
automatic grumbling, sarcasm, wit and constant wise-cracking is just the way 
us Brits talk a lot of the time.  "Oh no, Mum's sent me another lumpy maroon 
jumper - she knows I hate maroon" is just British for "I love my mum and I'm 
really proud of her".

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of his best qualities - his sense of 
humour.  When things threaten to get too serious, or too scary, Ron makes 
Harry and Hermione (and us) laugh, and both the H's might be a l-e-e-tle bit 
precious without Ron's down-to-earthness.

Only example I can come up with in a hurry, but there are lots:

"So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to Snape?" 
said Hermione in alarm.
"It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron.

Put me down for one of those bumper stickers, Andrea.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 02:22:04 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:22:04 -0000
Subject: Sugar Quill Island??
In-Reply-To: <80.971cccf.2803c5bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9atqoc+4t7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16214


*grooooooaaaning and laughing*

Oh my God, just what I need .... more fuel for my obsession!

This is great! (Help!)

--Suzanne, Gryffindor, 103% obsessed



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> go to www.sugarquill.com  You shall find all the answers there : )
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 02:26:40 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:26:40 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
Message-ID: <LAW2-F42xpAOAkK5LqN00000558@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16215

>
>Just a question I'm tossing out here:
>How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house elves 
>because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to (a) consider 
>the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against muggle-born witches & 
>wizards, and (b)
>forgive him those?

a) these don't seem so widely shared in the wizarding world
b) no I don't forgive - nor do I forgive the prejudice about giants and 
house elves (or even "interestin' creatures")

I think the reason it's Ron who tells us about attitudes to giants and house 
elves is so that we can see that these particular prejudices are *not* 
confined to obvious racists like the Malfoys, but are shared by the vast 
majority of wizards.  Of course, that doesn't make them right - it's just 
information we need.  And, as Ron knows, but the others don't, giants have 
caused actual harm to the wizarding community.  He is also right about house 
elves, in that they *do* like work - even Dobby.  Naturally, this does not 
mean they ought to be exploited - Ron just doesn't question these things 
more than the average 14-year old.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Apr 10 02:09:55 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:09:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Ron Week]: More Questions
References: <9atj5a+bm9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018a01c0c16a$80331760$b038acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 16216

> The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect,
> > the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a
> > large number of simultaneous threats.  Good chess players are
> > frequently good in science and mathematics.

> And music. (((:-)  (Pawn in Frankincense, anyone? [dodges spitwads
> from Ontario])

More like loud incoherent wails of protest from Ontario.  Especially in
light of that "unicorn hair" remark of Steve's -- if you combine the chess
game with the wand thing, Ron looks DOOMED.  I can only hope Rowling hasn't
read any Dunnett.

(Although, mind you, Ron was directing that chess game himself:  does that
imply anything about his future with Hermione?  <g>)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 02:56:17 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:56:17 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions--and more and more...
In-Reply-To: <9atnlp+rjcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atsoh+rpu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16217

Ebony wrote:
>   
> > Ron's talent, as someone noted, seems to be most visible in 
> Potions.  
> 
> He cuts up dandelion roots neatly.  What else?
> 
> When I was in college, I did street evangelism.  I'm going to 
finally 
> uuse some of the lingo that some of the people we witnessed to 
> did.  "Recite chapter and verse, please."
> 
> Please, someone show me this in canon.  I'd like to know.

I was mainly going off the mention of Ron's meticulously cut roots in 
PoA, which Snape made him give to Malfoy.  Ron seems to know how to 
be precise in such a way that implies he can appreciate the "subtly 
shimmering vapours" that move Snape to rhapsody.  Also, I seem to 
recall Ron being very careful to mash his scarab beetles just right 
even before Hermione distracts him with Krum in GoF.  But I could be 
imagining that one (darn this thing with lending out the books!)  
Admittedly, Ron's meticulous attention to the task in Potions could 
be an attempt to keep Snape off his back, but even that indicates his 
recognition of what will stave off the threat--something that does 
him real justice when he plays chess.  Even so, I don't recall him 
screwing up in Potions at all (unlike Harry whose Confusing 
Concoction won't thicken in PoA), whereas there are numerous examples 
of him crashing and burning in Charms and Transfiguration--I always 
laugh at the part where he has to put that feather out with his hat--
is it in PS/SS? or CoS?.

On another note, Amanda mentioned the likeness between Ron and 
Sirius.  Maybe this is one reason Sirius is really blunt with Ron 
("She has the measure of Crouch better than you have, Ron.")  I could 
also see Ron being suspected for a spy, as Sirius was.  Both 
innocent, both weak enough to be suspected.  If Sirius is second-
guessing himself at the point of the Fidelius Charm, it shows he's 
learned something about himself that Ron has yet to learn.  Perhaps 
the "prank" on Snape gave Sirius the wake-up call?

Oh yeah, and one more thing.  I noticed when writing that filk about 
Ginny that Harry avoids doing to her the thing that Ron does to 
Hermione (yes, it's Pick on Ron Night):  He doesn't ask *Ginny* to 
the ball knowing he's sure to get a yes.  Admittedly, there's not 
much of a window of time for him to do this before he finds out she's 
going with Neville, but it doesn't even seem to occur to him that 
that could have been an option.  Ron's approach, however, is one that 
reflects the downside of a chessmaster's outlook:  "spraying pawns 
ahead of the fray" (Russellian reference for anyone who cares), he 
attempts to arrange the board as efficiently and strategically as 
possible, without reference to the feelings of his pieces.

Lisa




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 02:59:31 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:59:31 -0000
Subject: The American Editors are Idiots! (spinoff on Hermione in US/UK)
In-Reply-To: <9atdc3+e8tk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9atsuj+om3m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16218

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tanwo at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Beginning a sentence with "and" may have passed into common usage, 
> but 
> > ending a sentence with a preposition can still get you talked 
about 
> > behind your back. *grin*
> > 
> > Haggridd
> 
> For me Winston Churchill summed this up when he said -
> 
> This is an absurd pedantry, up with which I will not put.
> 
> W   :))

Churchill always was a bit of a snob.  Why should he think that the 
peasantry is absurd?  Aren't there any serious-minded peasants? 

H.  :)




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Tue Apr 10 03:54:09 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV revisited
Message-ID: <20010410035410.062763ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16219

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From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 10 04:17:52 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 21:17:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and Misuse of Magic 
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010410041752.006ae5e0@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16220


>Just throwing out my two knuts, doesn't Hermione say in PS/SS that she had 
>not only been memorising her textbooks by heart, but also tried some simple 
>spells, which all worked for her???  I'm going off memory here, since the 
>books are not at my disposal.  So wouldn't that fall under Misuse of Magic 
>by an Underage Wizard?
>
>Thoughts, anyone?

I've though about that before also... never really came up with an answer.
Maybe she tried and they didn't work, so she wasn't in trouble... or maybe
since she wasn't aware of the law, (she wouldn't have been told that
already, would she?) she wasn't given a notice?

I'd love to hear other people's comments/ideas on the subject.


-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 03:53:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:53:20 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: OT-Chatter (was American Editors are Idiots! ....)
References: <9atsuj+om3m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD283B0.64E6AA8B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16221

Hi --

The following needs to move to OT-Chatter please.  I don't see anything
at all relating to the HP books (or even HP at all frankly).

Thanks!!

Penny
The Mod Squad

Haggridd wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tanwo at h... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Beginning a sentence with "and" may have passed into common usage,
>
> > but
> > > ending a sentence with a preposition can still get you talked
> about
> > > behind your back. *grin*
> > >
> > > Haggridd
> >
> > For me Winston Churchill summed this up when he said -
> >
> > This is an absurd pedantry, up with which I will not put.
> >
> > W   :))
>
> Churchill always was a bit of a snob.  Why should he think that the
> peasantry is absurd?  Aren't there any serious-minded peasants?
>
> H.  :)
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [www.debticated.com]

>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
> the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
> through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 04:36:00 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:36:00 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and Misuse of Magic 
Message-ID: <c0.1276e28f.2803e7b0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16222


>I've though about that before also... never really came up with an answer.
>Maybe she tried and they didn't work, so she wasn't in trouble... or maybe
>since she wasn't aware of the law, (she wouldn't have been told that
>already, would she?) she wasn't given a notice?

I don't think that she knew about the law yet, and didn't find out until 
summer after first year, or somewhere in first year. Because I remember that 
when Ron is trying to turn Scabbers yellow, Hermione comes in and says that 
she has memorized all of the text books and tried some spells, which worked 
for her. I don't think that she got any warning or notification that this 
wasn't to be done until they got to school or graduated, or else she wouldn't 
have been bosting it, being the little perfect that she was back then. I 
mean, think about it, Hermione, involved wiht something *illegal*? Nope, 
don't think so. So I don't think that she knew about that law yet.

Going back to her dark cold closet that she came out of for the first time~
Wicky



From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 04:52:23 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:52:23 EDT
Subject: dilatory Ron sketch
Message-ID: <33.1354e023.2803eb87@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16223

Well, dear friends, I blew it.

I let a series of personal crises prevent me from finishing and posting parts 
two through five of my Ron Weasley character sketch.

If I could write like Caius, I'd post a mea maxima culpa filk...

My serious and profound apologies to all of you.

I'm going to post the Part II - Ron his family, and probably skip Part III -  
which focuses mostly on Ron's problems -- his insecurity and poverty, and 
then finish Part IV and V -- Ron his courage and exploits and Ron as the 
quintessential adolescent.

Hope this is okay.

Susan

(trying to get AOL 6.0 to cooperate and not send this in HTML)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 05:11:18 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:11:18 EDT
Subject: Ron and the Weasley Family - Part II of the late, late, Susan McGee's posts
Message-ID: <73.ca3e828.2803eff6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16224

 Ron Weasley and his family?..
 
?The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families?? Albus 
Dumbledore on the Weasleys in the chapter Dobby?s Reward in the CoS.
 
?It?s Arthur?s fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry 
all these years.?
Molly Weasley in the Parting of the Ways in the Goblet of Fire
 
 
Ron Weasley cannot be understood  without his family. He is the sixth son and 
the sixth child of seven.? 
 
His parents are  Arthur and Molly Weasley. Arthur is the Head of Misuse of 
Muggle Artifacts Office at the Ministry of Magic. Molly works inside the 
home, manages the household, and takes care of the kids. His siblings are:
Bill Weasley who is ?cool? with a pony tail, an earring, dragonhide boots 
and might be mistaken for a rock star. He works for Gringotts. Charlie 
Weasley who  works with dragons and makes an appearance in PS to offer 
Hagrid's dragon a refuge. Percy Weasley, prefect, head boy, stuffy, pompous 
minion of Barty Crouch, Senior; Gred and Forge, the twins, the jokers, the 
mischief makers, and rule breakers and his only sister Ginny Weasley who 
figures prominently in CoS and has a major crush on Harry.
 
Ron is often gloomy and discouraged about his family. He cannot see how he 
can live up to the legacy of Head Boys, Prefects and Quidditch stars. He 
feels alone and isolated within his family. The Mirror of Erised shows 
?nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our 
hearts??.. Ronald Weasley, who has always been overshadowed by his brothers, 
sees himself standing alone, the best of all of them?? (Dumbledore in PS/SS)
 
He has endured constant hand me downs. ?You never get anything new either 
with five brothers. I?ve got Bill?s old robes, Charlie?s old wand, and 
Percy?s old rat.? (Ron, Chapter 6, PS/SS).
 
Fred and George are mostly seen in the books as delightful, fun loving kids. 
Yet Ron?s experience with them has not been quite so perfect.They changed his 
teddy bear into a spider and left him with an intense irrational fear of 
spiders (and having just realized and overcome my own phobia about dentists I 
can relate). They gave him a sweet that burned a hole in his tongue. They 
told him that the sorting ceremony involved wrestling with a troll. In some 
ways, it's hilarious, but it was hard for Ron, who like the other kids, was 
understandably nervous about the Sorting Ceremony.
 
Ron can?t stand Percy, and cooperates with Fred and George in teasing and 
harassing? him.?
For example, in reference to Percy's report on cauldrons for the MoM Ron says 
" That'll change the world, that rpoert will. From page of the Daily Prophet, 
I expect, cauldron leaks."
 What is more telling about Ron's opinion of  Percy is that Ron speculates 
that Percy might do what Crouch, senior did --- sacrifice a member of his 
family for personal power and ambition.  

Ron clearly feels that his mother does not pay him enough attention. I myself 
wonder if  Mrs. Weasley was overwhelmed with the twin cyclones, and was too 
exhausted to focus very much on Ron. She forgets that he hates maroon and 
gives him a maroon sweater and dress robes. Ron laments being forgotten... 
?She always forgets I don?t like corned beef? (Ron to Harry in PS/SS) ?You 
don?t want this, it?s all dry,? said Ron. But notice, while he is feeling 
overlooked he is also loyal and protective "She hasn?t got much time, ? he 
added quickly ?you know with five of us.? 
How many kids did she have when Ron was three? (speaking of being 
overwhelmed).
 
Harry envies Ron his family, and the experience of growing up in a wizard 
family. 
When he arrives at the Burrow, Harry notices a pile of comics which all 
seemed to feature The Adventures of Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle, and 
says?.?This is the best house I?ve ever been in. (CoS, chapter 3) Ron who 
had been nervous about Harry's feelings about Ron's poverty is relieved. 
(Okay so I couldn't figure out another way of mentioning Martin Miggs.......)
 
 Ron?s feelings about his family may change over time, and so may his image 
in the Mirror or Erised. When he begins to excel at certain things, he may 
stop feeling overshadowed by his brothers. 
 
Ron will always have the love and concern of his family. When he fights with 
Harry in the GoF, he can go hang out with Fred and George. He can fall back 
on his family. The depth of family feeling among the Weasleys comes out often 
in crisis. For example, Ron?s reaction to the news that it is Ginny who the 
prisoner in the Chamber of Secrets, and Percy stumbling into the icy water in 
the GoF (looking younger than usual) to reassure himself of Ron?s safety.



From morine10 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 05:15:43 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:15:43 EDT
Subject: Typical Ron
Message-ID: <70.976ae0f.2803f0ff@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16225




> Um... 14 year old boys actually do this?  At age 14?  Still?
> 
> Could just be me.  But that really sounds like behavior a kid 2-5 
> years younger would exhibit.
> 
> Even my thirteen year old boys don't do this.  My fifth graders (ages 
> 10-11) would, but most of my girls would sock the crap out of them if 
> they tried it.
> 

Ebony, Wow!  I'd love to come see your school.  Emotionally mature 14 year 
old boys?  <vbg>  

Alas, at the middle school I teach at, the boys (ages 11-14) still do dumb 
stuff around girls and many of the girls giggle in a Parvati and Lavender 
style.  I chaparone all the school dances and work with several clubs and 
sports after school  and I watch how they interact.  While it may not be 
dipping the girls pigtails in the inkwell, I'd say that grabbing her 
notebooks or pencil cases and playing keepaway is along the same lines. <g> 
While it certainly isn't every student, it is a majority, IMO.  Of course 
this week all stupid adolescent behavior is multiplied times 10.  Hormones 
rage the week before spring break, and when the temperature goes above 60 
degrees - forget it. <g>

To bring this back on topic, I don't think Ron's behavior is uncharacteristic 
of a 14 year old boy.  I know that you disagree with saying anyone is 
'typical' but Ron is the one who has had the most typical upbringing -and I'm 
talking in the wizarding world.  And when it comes to typical young male 
behavior, I would have to go with Ron's before Harry's. 

Are Ron's actions/words always the best in a situation?  Probably not.  Are 
they abnormal?  I don't think so.  He's just growing up.  Adolescence is 
rough, even if you weren't locked in a cupboard for 10 years.

~Moey
Who glances at her husband in front of his PS2 and wonders when he's going to 
mature emotionally. <vbg>
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" 
        -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Tue Apr 10 05:31:30 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:31:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Lavender Brown
References: <9at607+hi0k@eGroups.com> <012301c0c13b$646a6760$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <3AD29AB2.956DD0B0@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16226

Hallooo!!!!

Starling wrote:

> Howdy, all.
>
> I was wondering if anyone who had a copy of Roald Dahl's "Matilda" handy could do a little checking for me.

Okey Dokey...

> I remember a friend of Matilda's, in that book, being Lavender Brown. If memory serves (and I'm in college, so doubting my memory is routine<g>), she snuck a chameleon or a salamander or some such into school to slip into the Headmistress's water pitcher.

It was a newt, actually, but same diff.

>
> Am I right or am I completly off base?

Not off base at all, you scored a home run.

> I loved "Matilda" as a kiddie (quick summary:  genius small girl grows up in horrible family, develops magical powers and scares off evil headmistress, saving her schoolmates' sanity, and is then adopted by her beloved teacher when her crook father flees the country and is moved up to a higher grade, where her powers vanish as her mind is now being properly used...)  I'd be most interested to see if Lavender, indeed, is a homage to Dahl's works, which I have always loved, and which are also wonderfully use magic and fantasy.
>

There is a Lavender Brown in the book, Matilda's best friend. It may in fact be a homage, but one can never tell. I often think of what JKR would have read as a child, and Dahl's work seems like something she would have read. Perhaps even Diana Wynne Jones as she was first published int he 70's.

I would like to believe that perhaps it is a tribute. But that's my HO.

B

>
> Abbie, who grew up across the street from a library and once called the children's librarian "Mom"

You to? Wow, she had a lot of kids, I bet you...

>
> starling823 at yahoo.com
> 69% obsessed with HP and loving it

I haven't been rated with percentage of obession yet....how does one go about that?

Jamieson, the cuddley and cute... ::giggles:: <g>
--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From Zyrianna at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 05:40:41 2001
From: Zyrianna at aol.com (Zyrianna at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:40:41 -0000
Subject: Regarding the changes in vocabulary between the US and UK versions.
Message-ID: <9au6cp+ovbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16227

I just wanted to speak up with a bit of an opinion on the subject of 
vocabulary changes in the books.  As an adult I would have had no 
problem with having a glossary to look things up.  In fact glossaries 
are quite common in fantasy books which I often read and in those 
that do not have them I am pretty adept at figuring out what a word 
or phrase means.  However let us remember that these books were 
written first with children in mind and not adults.  Though these 
books have become universally loved by adults and children I wonder a 
bit if they would have achieved such success if JKR had not been 
willing to bend a bit.  Would US children have enjoyed the books as 
much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar 
words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.  

Personally I look forward to one day reading the UK version but I am 
glad that JKR took the little extra effort to make the books 
enjoyable for children in all countries and helped bring back the joy 
books can bring to children who are quickly becoming lost in 
electronic age.


Melinda,
One who has just recently found the Potter books and is already 
addicted.
******************************************************************

"A great writer is four things: a storyteller, an artist, a teacher, 
a magician."
~Italo Calvino 

******************************************************************





From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 05:49:50 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:49:50 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions--and more and more...
In-Reply-To: <9atsoh+rpu6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9au6tu+7alc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16228

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:

> On another note, Amanda mentioned the likeness between Ron and 
> Sirius.  Maybe this is one reason Sirius is really blunt with Ron 
> ("She has the measure of Crouch better than you have, Ron.")  I 
could also see Ron being suspected for a spy, as Sirius was.  Both 
> innocent, both weak enough to be suspected.  If Sirius is second-
> guessing himself at the point of the Fidelius Charm, it shows he's 
> learned something about himself that Ron has yet to learn.  Perhaps 
> the "prank" on Snape gave Sirius the wake-up call?
> 
    Lisa


I agree with Ron being similar to teenage Sirius. Both have rather 
nasty tempers and I can see that getting Ron into a whole lot of 
sticky spots. Ron is also very blunt most of the time saying things 
that Harry and Hermione are only thinking. 

Ron's potential for falling to the wrong side so to speak may have to 
do more with his pride than anything else. He's very stubborn and as 
many people have pointed out he won't admit when he's wrong.  We saw 
in GoF his jealousy of Harry and his stubborn pride kept him from 
talking to Harry. Yes Harry was partially to blame for keeping the 
rift going but as I recall he(Harry) seemed to be more miserable by 
it than Ron did. 

I don't think Ron will become a DE but I do think his stubborn pride 
is going to put him in a situation that may endanger Harry and 
Hermione. It's not something he'll do as a consious thought but as a 
rash reaction fueled by his temper.  

Just my thought on the situation.

   Kristin (formerly lurking)




From elanorgamgee at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 05:58:39 2001
From: elanorgamgee at yahoo.com (Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee)
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ron Week]: The Youngest and Most Impressive Weasley Man
In-Reply-To: <9au6tu+7alc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410055840.6801.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16229


Ahoy mateys!

I must preface this entire post by saying that, when I turned my HP daily calendar and saw a picture of Ron on today?s date, I actually jumped up and down at my desk. (My boss laughed at me.) So, that will tell you how I feel about "the youngest and most impressive Weasley man."

Jim wrote:
> Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, 

Like others before me, I disagree with this, assuming you mean "least developed" as in the least developed character, and not the least mature. We know quite a bit about Ron?s insecurities. We know about his family background. We pretty much know what he?s feeling at any given time. Ron is an open book, even though he doesn?t realize how transparent he is. Perhaps if we knew as much about Hermione?s thoughts and motivations, we wouldn?t be having shipper debates at all (remember the whole "Hermione?s feelings are a mystery" thread awhile back?) Well, Ron?s are not.

However, I would like to hear more from those who think that Ron is the least developed. I don?t quite understand this argument, so I would like to hear more of the background.

Jim again:

>Is Ron suffering from depression? 

I have to say I find this whole idea just...puzzling. I don?t see any evidence that Ron is suffering from depression. If anybody would be, it would be Harry (especially at the end of GoF). Ron?s just a typical moody teenage boy, IMO.


Jim:

>C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions 
> and attitudes? Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in 
> canon?
> PS/SS is the book where Ron shows "middle child" behavior. 

I think that Ron?s behavior is more that of a youngest child (he is the youngest boy; Ginny occupies a somewhat different place since she is a girl; Fred and George do treat him as "ickle Ronnie-kins", IMO). I think this is perhaps why I identify with Ron, as I am a youngest child in an extremely spread-out family. Perhaps this is also why I noticed the first time I read GoF that, at the end when Bill leaves, he DOESN?T SAY GOODBYE TO RON. He kisses his mother, squeezes Harry?s shoulder, and basically ignores his own brother. Harry doesn?t seem to notice but I?m willing to bet Ron did. Ron wants attention. He wants approval. He feels overlooked in his family, and like he is never taken seriously (prime example: he?s the one who gets the lacy dress robes. What did Fred and George get? Presumably theirs were secondhand too.) 

Given this context, it CAN?T be easy for Ron to share his family with Harry, yet he does, and we don?t see him resenting that. His mother displays more open affection for Harry than for Ron (granted, Harry needs it and deserves it, but that?s not the point at the moment); his brothers show more respect for Harry than they do for him. Bill and Charlie talk to Harry with respect; Fred and George give him the Marauder?s Map, and we don?t see evidence of Ron resenting this. I think that says a lot for him, personally.

Demelza wrote:

>What I find interesting is that Ron likes a loser team and that the motto >of the team is to "hope >for the best". Ron is an optimist.

Yet he?d never admit it. Ron has a gooey center that he tries to keep hidden. It?s the same with Loves-His-Pet-But-Won?t-Admit-It Ron. [And Loves-Hermione-But-Won?t-Admit-It Ron ;) ] He just hasn?t learned to deal with his feelings yet. Hmm, I think maybe if I had 5 older brothers, and two of them were Fred and George, I would probably have developed defense mechanisms to cover my true feelings too.




Heidi:

>But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron has a mean streak sometimes. 

And I think Harry has a mean streak sometimes. Only Harry does just come out and say it. He gets quiet and passive-aggressive about it. He doesn?t fight with Hermione in PoA, oh no, he just lets the fight go on and doesn?t do anything about it (until it?s convenient, and then he halfheartedly tries to patch things up). Ron?s no meaner than Harry; he?s just more honest about his feelings. And, as B. pointed out, he?s got a bigger mouth. ;)

Heidi:

>But if he *thinks* you've dissed him, he gets violent, verbally and physically. 

I think it?s more if you?ve dissed his family or his friends that he?ll attack. I don?t have the books in front of me right now to quote exactly, but all the examples I can think of (Malfoy calling Hermione a Mudblood, Malfoy insulting his family) fall into this category. And I?m sorry, but I find it difficult to see how anyone could not love a boy who attacks someone who insults his friend, winds up belching slugs, and is still going on about how vile the insulter is even while vomiting slugs. But maybe that?s just me. J 

Heidi:

>I am not saying that merely getting into a fight with friends is an inherently mean or bad thing, but his refusal to 
>apologize BOTH times makes it seem like JKR is *making a point* about him. 

Two points here: 

   Harry refused to apologize too. So did Hermione.
   It was quite evident to me that Ron was going to apologize after the first task and Harry wouldn?t let him. I don?t have the book in front of me but I believe it says something like "Harry knew he was about to apologize and he suddenly found he didn?t need to hear it"

So I think this argument sells Ron short.

Heidi:
> I know he's fictional and all, but Harry needs some protecting, even against his so-called friends, and Hermione does *not* need an >emotionally abusive boyfriend.

Whoa! Now this really does sell Ron short, at least in my opinion. I would like to point out that Hermione gives as good as she gets. She?s no victim here. Yes, he makes her cry at the ball. Yes, he?s satisfied about it. BECAUSE HE?S 14! He doesn?t know how else to vent his feelings. Yes, he was a jerk. I don?t deny that. But I think "emotionally abusive" carries it a bit too far. And when I consider that many people who don?t like Ron have actually said that D/H is preferable to R/H?well, let?s just say I have a lot of trouble reconciling that statement.


Steve said:

>Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure 
>and innocent who always are the first to die.
>Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
>Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
>Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a unicorn 
>tail hair at its core. Ron.

You know, I?ve heard that, sometimes, when people are faced with something that is just too inconceivable painful for them to deal with, they just change the subject.

How about that Quidditch World Cup?

First Mate Mo wrote:

>Woohoo! Ron week, we are happy now aren't we Cap'n Kathy?!

Yes, matey. Yes, we are! 

Mo said:

>I don't think I've ever noticed Ron feeling jealous over Harry's Quidditch 
>abilities. 

Actually, when you think about it, it?s really astounding how much Ron ISN?T jealous of, considering that he has been painted as such a jealous person. He willingly shares his family with Harry. We don?t see him getting jealous of the Rita Skeeter articles pairing Harry and Hermione (in fact, we don?t really see him reacting to those until Viktor is mentioned, because he knows that the Viktor part is true?and the "sniping" scene that has been mentioned so often happens the weekend after the article is revealed?but that?s getting into a shipping argument, so I?ll stop there.) And we don?t see him really being jealous of Harry playing Quidditch. Sure, he?d love to play, he?d love to win the House Cup. But so would a lot of people. Why is wanting recognition so terrible? Hermione wants recognition, yet we don?t assume that she?d sell her friends to Voldemort for a few extra O.W.L.s.

B Bennett wrote:

>No, no ? I accidentally threw a knife at Captain Kathy during our 
>first summit (I'm not kidding here), so all weapons were
>consequently banned from SugarQuill Island. 

She did. She?s not kidding. Watch out for her. She may be the Good Will Ambassador, but she?s got deadly aim. J 

I just want to add that I have seen a lot of posts mentioning Sugar Quill in the past few days (usually in the "Fire away, Sugar Quillers!" sense, but the plug from Paula was very nice too!), and I just want to point out that there are quite a few people on this list who love Ron, who may even be R/H, and who have nothing to do with Sugar Quill. I am just saying this because I think that a false antagonism has been built up with Sugar Quill in the past, and I would hate to see that happen again. Perhaps it is out of line for me to say this, as it is really Zsenya or Arabella?s place, I suppose, but than again, maybe the captaincy of the Good Ship has gone to my head.

Now, would you people please stop being so darn interesting, so I can get some sleep? ;)

Cap?n Kathy 

AKA Elanor Gamgee


 



"What can I say to people who insist on being that thick?

--Hermione, to Gwen

from HQOW, Year 4 by Arabella



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 10 07:27:00 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:27:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
References: <9at5bm+393i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0c18f$a82ed720$1514a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 16230





Hear, Hear!  Well said, Amy!  Otherwise, why should we not then change
the Elizabethan blank verse of Shakespeare, or comb over Dickens, the
Brontes, and Conan Doyle for those nasty British locutions and
eliminate them for the more understandable language of The National
Enquirer?

Haggridd
> --------------------------------------------------
I, for one, did not ask for HP to be translated into what? ... English
translated into English? Or English translated into Americanese? This was
JKR's idea. I disliked it so intensely, that I purchased the British
editions, just so that I could read HP as it was written.

I had absolutely no problems with any British novels that I have read, most
of which I read as a young grade school student. Most of the words I could
either figure out or I would look them up. I actually felt it was an insult
that JKR felt that the American children needed the books translated. I feel
more insulted that some people act like it was an American idea.

Doreen






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 08:50:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:50:09 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <3AD25C7D.AF595522@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9auhg1+1mov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16231

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I will preface my remarks by saying that I came to roughly the same
> conclusion about Ron that Heidi expressed earlier.  I liked him 
alot in
> Books 1 & 2.  But, PoA made me slightly uneasy about Ron, and GoF
> *really* made me uneasy about Ron.  More than uneasy really .... 
while I
> don't *hate* Ron, I do dislike the person that he seems to be 
becoming.
> I don't like what I saw in GoF honestly.  

I agree with you Penny.  I just wrote a really long post on Ron in 
GoF, and it got eaten up when I tried to send it, so I am now going 
to try and summarise.

I, like you, thought that Ron was a strong character in PS and C0S.  
The chess game was wonderful, and I was also very impressed with how 
he overcame his phobia to go into the Forbidden Forest after the 
spiders.  I did not like his treatment of Hermione at the beginning 
of PS, even though I appreciate she was very annoying, and think that 
an apology may have been in order (besides saving her from a troll).

By PoA, I was becoming aware of a certain preponsity to be a little 
narrow minded, based on wizarding prejudices.  His opinion on 
werewolves, for instance, his mockery of Filch being a Squib, and 
then in GoF, when he finds out that Hagrid is half giant.  I felt 
that his attitude towards Hagrid changed subtly after that (I will 
find examples if asked).  Harry and Hermione don't have these 
preconceptions, as were raised in Muggle homes, but I don't think 
this excuses Ron - he should rise above it.

By GoF, I feel that Ron has seriously regressed.  He has almost 
turned into a clown - bitter, jealous and sad on the inside, a joker 
on the outside.  This seems what Harry values him for.  When they are 
no longer speaking, Harry misses Ron who can make him laugh, talk to 
him about Quiddich, make Potions and Divination bearable.  Hermione 
fulfils the role of advisor/helper much better.  Ron seems to be 
there to lighten Harry up when things get too heavy.  Ron doesn't 
take an active role in anything in GoF.  He is passive, he is a 
bystander always and resents it (or does he? it he getting scared?)

I do dislike Ron in GoF.  I don't however, think there is anything 
too ominous about his behaviour.  For instance I don't understand 
what justification there is for him becoming a DE, as I think it will 
take a lot for him to betray Harry and his family.  I do think that 
he could be an unwitting pawn (chess analogy).

I think that his behaviour is simply normal 14/15 year old.  He is 
petty, immature, spiteful on occassion, jealous - absolutely horrid 
(<g>) to Hermione in particular (I hated Ron during the Yule Ball 
episode, despite feeling very sorry for him).  I noticed this more, I 
think, because Harry and Hermione seem so much more mature - Hermione 
is developing into a young woman, who is sensible, smart, sensitive 
and kind (something I would also say about Ginny).  Harry has been 
through too much in his short life not to seem much older than he 
is.  I think this is one of the reasons he values Ron - as Ron is 
able to bring a degree of normalcy to his life.

I am hoping that the events at the end of GoF will hope Ron grow up.  
Harry needs the friend who was there is PS and CoS.  He has had to 
rely more on Hermione, but I feel that he doesn't want to do this.  
However, on the evidence so far, it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Catherine




From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Apr 10 08:50:22 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:50:22 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Lockhart
Message-ID: <9auhge+c8l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16232

Yes, I know it is Ron Week,but..

There has been a lot of discussion on why Dumbledore has made Lockhart 
DADA Teacher in CoS.
I think Dumbledore knows Lockhart is fake from the beginning ( "Hit by 
your own sword, Guilderoy?" (or similiar). So he hired 
Lockhart,knowing  Lockhart would not really have much to teach to the 
pupils, except..
Even Dumbledore could not know he would need a "real"DADA- Wizard. So 
he might have thought it would not be such a bad Idea to let the 
children find out by themselves, that "not everthing that glows is 
gold". As Hagrid said, he didn't have much of a choice, but I believe 
that is mainly what  he thought the children could learn from 
Lockhart, apart from book- information. BTW even if all those things 
were not performed by Lockhart himself, they WERE performed, so what 
they learned was not completly wrong, was it?

IMVHO, this is what JKR wanted to say:
I believe, Lockhart and Lupin belong *together* to show the Hogwarts 
pupils, and the Readers, "Don't judge a book by its cover ". :)
Lockhart seems all "shiny". His appearance and his books tell 
everybody what a great Teacher he would be . Lupin in comparison is 
ragged and does not want attention. He "seems" to not have much to 
say. After those two years however, we know it is the other way 
around. Lupin really has informatio to give, AND knows how to give it 
too, and Lockhart is just a neat poster.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 10 09:21:49 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:21:49 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <9auhge+c8l8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aujbd+ri61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16233

Good thinking, Meckelburg (if that is your name...)!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:

> I think Dumbledore knows Lockhart is a fake from the beginning 

Yes, the phrase "impaled upon your own sword" reveals that (when 
Dumbledore learns Lockhart has been hit by his own memory charm).

> Even Dumbledore could not know he would need a "real"DADA- Wizard. 

Could he not, with Voldemort in person having been present at Hogwarts  
for a whole year (inside Quirrel)? I think it was rather that he just 
couldn?t find anyone (NO, Snape does NOT want the job!!!). So he 
decided he?s make the best of the situation and

> let the 
> children find out by themselves, that "not everything that glows is 
> gold". 

I would like to extend this theory to Prof. Trelawny. I think 
Dumbledore lets the kids study Divination in order to make them see 
that prediciting the future is really, as Prof. McGonagall puts it, "a 
very imprecise branch of magic". Or in order to find the occasional 
"true seer" (everybody looking forward to Lavender and Parvati doing 
the astrological column in Witch Weekly after leaving Hogwarts?).

But I agree with Hermione that it doesn?t take long to realise 
Divination is crap, so it?s really a waste of time to let the kids 
study it for YEARS. They could really "be doing something 
useful instead".

Meckelburg continues:

> I believe, Lockhart and Lupin belong *together* to show the Hogwarts 
> pupils, and the Readers, "Don't judge a book by its cover ". :)
> Lockhart seems all "shiny". His appearance and his books tell 
> everybody what a great Teacher he would be . Lupin in comparison is 
> ragged and does not want attention. He "seems" to not have much to 
> say. After those two years however, we know it is the other way 
> round. Lupin really has informatio to give, AND knows how to give 
it 
> too, and Lockhart is just a neat poster.


That?s very well put, too.

Lockhart is the personified "all that glitters is not gold" 
(Shakespeare), while Lupin stands for "all that is gold does not 
glitter" (Tolkien). 




From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Apr 10 09:50:51 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:50:51 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <9aujbd+ri61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9aul1r+slpo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16234

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> Good thinking, Meckelburg (if that is your name...)!

I prefer " Mecki "

I haven't thought of the Divination- class, but it fits into the same 
theory.
Maybe Hogwarts has allways taught boeth the "real" magic and the "fuss 
around it". Leaving it to the students to decide what they want to do 
after school. And who knows, somebody may turn out to be a "true 
seer". And somebody else might want to be the star of the witch's 
weekly !!( Crabbe or Goyle maybe <vbg> 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> 
> > I think Dumbledore knows Lockhart is a fake from the beginning 
> 
> Yes, the phrase "impaled upon your own sword" reveals that (when 
> Dumbledore learns Lockhart has been hit by his own memory charm).
> 
> > Even Dumbledore could not know he would need a "real"DADA- Wizard. 
> 
> Could he not, with Voldemort in person having been present at 
Hogwarts  
> for a whole year (inside Quirrel)? I think it was rather that he 
just 
> couldn?t find anyone (NO, Snape does NOT want the job!!!). So he 
> decided he?s make the best of the situation and
> 
> > let the 
> > children find out by themselves, that "not everything that glows 
is 
> > gold". 
> 
> I would like to extend this theory to Prof. Trelawny. I think 
> Dumbledore lets the kids study Divination in order to make them see 
> that prediciting the future is really, as Prof. McGonagall puts it, 
"a 
> very imprecise branch of magic". Or in order to find the occasional 
> "true seer" (everybody looking forward to Lavender and Parvati doing 
> the astrological column in Witch Weekly after leaving Hogwarts?).
> 
> But I agree with Hermione that it doesn?t take long to realise 
> Divination is crap, so it?s really a waste of time to let the kids 
> study it for YEARS. They could really "be doing something 
> useful instead".
> 
> Meckelburg continues:
> 
> > I believe, Lockhart and Lupin belong *together* to show the 
Hogwarts 
> > pupils, and the Readers, "Don't judge a book by its cover ". :)
> > Lockhart seems all "shiny". His appearance and his books tell 
> > everybody what a great Teacher he would be . Lupin in comparison 
is 
> > ragged and does not want attention. He "seems" to not have much to 
> > say. After those two years however, we know it is the other way 
> > round. Lupin really has informatio to give, AND knows how to give 
> it 
> > too, and Lockhart is just a neat poster.
> 
> 
> That?s very well put, too.
> 
> Lockhart is the personified "all that glitters is not gold" 
> (Shakespeare), while Lupin stands for "all that is gold does not 
> glitter" (Tolkien).




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 10 10:15:24 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:15:24 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <3AD0BB24.B06D69D1@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9aumfs+9gbi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16235

Thanks everyone for reading through (I just realised it?s awfully 
long) and replying to my message! 


Catherine wrote:

 What about fairness and justice? Snape finds 
   it extremely unfair that James and Harry, who are (or were) so 
 popular, should get away with so much. This much is clear. What 
  concerns me about his pre-occupation with rules and justice is that 
in a way, it flies out of the window when Harry is concerned. He 
 uses it as a camouflage for needlessly punishing Harry and his 
 friends. Does Snape think that he is redressing the balance? There 
 are numerous occasions when Harry is treated very unfairly by Snape, 
and I feel that if Snape was so rigorously concerned with rules, 
 rather than just trying to get his own back, he would not behave in 
 such a way.


In answer to that: People with an extraordinary sense of authority and 
rule-keeping do not necessarily have a good sense of justice and 
fairness, too... they more often tend not to see beyond the rules. On 
the contrary, their concept will only make sense to them if they don?t 
accept anything beyond the rules. They will not allow the rules to be 
modified by higher principles such as equity, or justice, or fairness. 

So whenever Snape treats Harry unfairly, it does make sense for him, 
because Snape himself keeps within the rules all the time.

As a teacher, he does have the competence to deal out detentions - 
with a liberal amount of discretion, juristically speaking.

When it comes to more than just detentions, Snape never decides 
anything *ultra vires* (apologies for the lawyer 
slang). The worst thing ha can do to Harry is to go and take him to 
Dumbledore.

"Unfortunately, the decision to expell you does not rest with me. I 
will leave that to those people who have that happy power" 
(paraphrase).
                    
I will make an exception for Snape?s threatening Harry with the 
Veritaserum, though.
That would really be ultra vires. But Snape wasn?t speaking as Harry?s 
teacher there, but as the victim of an intrusion into his most 
personal affairs (his office), and therefore acting more or less in 
self-defence, not in abuse of authority.


So much for the justice and fairness thought.


Lyda wrote:
        
 Anyone in the Snapefans eGroup has already heard me discuss on this 
    topic. :)
--------------

Oh I?m sorry, Lyda. I didn?t want to steal your theory.
I hope you?re not going to sue me for copyright violation on this 
theory :-), which you probably won?t be very successful at anyway, 
unless you had the term "Snape" trademarked sometime back in the 
eighties... :-)

I didn?t know about the Snapefans eGroup. I?ll be VERY happy to have 
someone point me the way there, though...


Lyda continues:

 Severus is a man who will not tolerate defiance of his authority. He 
 also dislikes seeing weakness in others who have authority, which 
would explain his polite critisism of Dumbledore when he feels that 
the "Headmaster" is being to lenient. I think that certain weakness 
 is another characteristic that Snape severly denounces and cannot 
 tolerate, in himself and in others. 

It is my belief that he sees the defiance of authority that so marked 
 James' (and now Harry's) character as a type of weakness; he views it 
as weak and dishonorable of a person to not show proper respect to 
 authority, and even worse when the person is still rewarded for their 
 abject disregard for the rules which so govern Severus' life. 

--------------------------
That?s very well put. However, I do not agree that Snape disliked 
James as a weak person, but I hold that he disliked him for putting 
Snape in a weak position, by saving his life although they were 
enemies. I mean, is there a thing more morally heroic that saving your 
enemy?s life? It?s so great it will hardly ever be possible for Snape 
to set the balance right again. I think he tried in HPPS by saving 
Harry but realised that didn?t "help" him. 

He will forever be in debt of James and therefore in the weaker 
position, all the more because he?s in debt of a rule-breaker, one 
that he should be superior to by rights. And for a person with Snape?s 
pride, that?s hard to bear.



Lyda says:

However, I also have another personal and completely unfounded reason 
  for Snape's utter loathing of Harry, but that is for another time 
and   another post. :)
------------

I?m DYING to know!!!

                   


--- , Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote (obviously on a Sunday)

> And it made me realize Snape is a> "Pharisee."  He's the kind of 
person you're always running into> in the Gospels, saying, "What kind 
of Messiah is this, who keeps
> breaking the Sabbath and a bunch of other rules and hanging out
> with tax collectors and sinners?"
> 
> The rift between Snape and the Potters (senior and junior) is the
> rift between the "children of legality" and the "children of
> grace," between people who follow rules and people who find
> themselves performing spontaneous acts of love and valor (like
> befriending a werewolf or facing down the Big V. over the Mirror
> of Erised).
> 
> But the thing about the Law (I'm speaking from a Christian
> perspective here, of course) is that, while it is good in itself,
> =it can't save you.=  Only the acceptance of grace can do that. 
> And I wonder if Our Severus will one day find himself facing that
> particular choice.

---------------
Although I tend to be careful seeing Christian (or Jewish) imagery in 
Harry Potter ( I think the background is humanist, but secular), that 
sounds good. Snape as a Pharisee...

But I must say I don?t agree. Snape is not a Child of Legality. He is 
a Child of Chaos, whatever happened in his past, and resorted to rules 
and rigidity not because that was the only thing he knew and was 
used to (as it is with the Pharisees) but because that was all that 
was left to him.

He HAS experienced grace already. By right he should be rotting in 
Azkaban. He?s just not ready yet to accept grace as the driving force 
behind all. He still sees his dependance on grace as a weakness 
imposed on and not as a favour granted to him. That is what I hope he 
will learn ere the end.




From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Tue Apr 10 10:32:47 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:32:47 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: The Youngest and Most Impressive Weasley Man
In-Reply-To: <20010410055840.6801.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9aungf+atq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16236

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee 
<elanorgamgee at y...> wrote:

 
> I just want to add that I have seen a lot of posts mentioning Sugar 
Quill in the past few days (usually in the "Fire away, Sugar 
Quillers!" sense, but the plug from Paula was very nice too!), and I 
just want to point out that there are quite a few people on this list 
who love Ron, who may even be R/H, and who have nothing to do with 
Sugar Quill. I am just saying this because I think that a false 
antagonism has been built up with Sugar Quill in the past, and I 
would hate to see that happen again. Perhaps it is out of line for me 
to say this, as it is really Zsenya or Arabella's place, I suppose, 
but than again, maybe the captaincy of the Good Ship has gone to my 
head.

Cap'n Kathy - you have free reign to send out whatever signals that 
you like, and here's Zsenya agreeing with you.  Just a reminder to 
all, although Arabella and I and the other professors are probably 
some of the biggest Ron fans out there, it doesn't a) mean that we 
don't like Harry at all (Arabella especially, if I may say so, has a 
soft spot for him) and it also doesn't meant that everyone who 
frequents the SugarQuill message boards (even W.A.I.L.) is a die-hard 
Ron fan.  We've got lots of Bill, Charlie, and other Weasley fans who 
may feel unsure about Ron as well.  There are a few of us who just 
happen to be very vocal on the subject...

:)Zsenya




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 10:39:04 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <20010410103904.10081.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16237


-
> > Harry and Hermione didn't grow up in wizard families
> > and therefore don't have the usual prejudices.  

Of course, this is another argument in favour of Harry growing up
with the Durseleys instead of some more kindly wizard foster family:
when the time comes for the Big Battle Against Evil, Harry won't be
encumbered with wizardly biases and prejudices against those groups
who might be allies such as giants.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From r.yoo at scotland.com  Tue Apr 10 11:46:08 2001
From: r.yoo at scotland.com (r.yoo at scotland.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:46:08 -0000
Subject: used Sylvan Lane Shoppe?
Message-ID: <9aurq0+kne6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16238

Has anyone every bought anything from the Sylvan Lane Shoppe?

http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harry_potter.htm

Was your experience a good one?  I am interested in buying one of the 
HP bowls and new mugs, so I wanted to check them out firt.  Thanks!

Rebecca
r.yoo at scotland.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 12:31:24 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:31:24 -0500
Subject: Snape and DADA again (was Dumbledore and Lockhart)
References: <9aujbd+ri61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD2FD1C.6FD60FFD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16239

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> Could he not, with Voldemort in person having been present at Hogwarts
> for a whole year (inside Quirrel)? I think it was rather that he just
> couldn?t find anyone (NO, Snape does NOT want the job!!!).

I had posted this over on Snapefans, and this reminded me of it--I think
that Snape might indeed be interested, but Dumbledore has asked him not
to apply. The reason most people have given for this scenario is that
Snape would be tempted back to the Dark Side, but I had suggested also
that keeping Snape from the DADA position might be for his own
protection. Not all of Voldemort's supporters were human. As DADA
professor, Snape might be exposed to attack from such non-human
supporters, especially if his spy role were known. This makes more sense
to me than the "temptation" reason, as certain of Snape as Dumbledore
sounds.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 12:34:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:34:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] used Sylvan Lane Shoppe?
References: <9aurq0+kne6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD2FDBC.60A30F08@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16240

r.yoo at scotland.com wrote:

> Has anyone every bought anything from the Sylvan Lane Shoppe?

Well, I've bought some stuff locally, and then looked at it on the
Sylvan Lane site, and it's uniformly overpriced. I saw a mobile I paid
$18 for, that cost in the 20s, and some even more egregious stuff. Plus
you have to pay postage.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 12:35:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:35:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Authority and rule-breaking
References: <9aumfs+9gbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD2FE2B.28E5E98@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16241

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> In answer to that: People with an extraordinary sense of authority and
> rule-keeping do not necessarily have a good sense of justice and
> fairness, too... they more often tend not to see beyond the rules. On
> the contrary, their concept will only make sense to them if they don?t
> accept anything beyond the rules. They will not allow the rules to be
> modified by higher principles such as equity, or justice, or fairness.

Hmmm. Snape is Inspector Javert. I wonder if he will break, as Javert
did. Any other Les Miserables fans out there want to explore the
similarity?

I didn't have time to read the whole post (sorry) and I have to go deal
with the little one now....I'll be pondering.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 12:47:28 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:47:28 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9auvd0+9gdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16242


> How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house 
elves because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to 
(a) consider the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against 
muggle-born witches & wizards, and (b) forgive him those?


I don't forgive Ron for his prejudices, actually, and cannot 
understand why he continues to support the enslavement of house elves.  
I think JKR must have more to say on the topic, because in GoF, house 
elves are still as badly off as they were in CoS.  However, Ron does 
learn with experience, as he did with Lupin.  I'd like to think that 
he will learn to be more tolerant with other "interestin' creatures" 
too.  I also think his prejudices are very much a part of his 
personality, which is prone to making rash judgments and sometimes 
nasty comments without any thought at all first.

As for Draco, I'm still standing by my belief that he is completely 
swayed by what Daddy believes.  If Lucius says so, so does Draco.  I 
think in the future, Draco will be forced to think on his own.  Let's 
see what he comes up with then!

--Jenny fr




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 13:17:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:17:41 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <3AD2FE2B.28E5E98@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9av15l+ta2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16243

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > In answer to that: People with an extraordinary sense of 
authority and
> > rule-keeping do not necessarily have a good sense of justice and
> > fairness, too... they more often tend not to see beyond the 
rules. On
> > the contrary, their concept will only make sense to them if they 
don?t
> > accept anything beyond the rules. They will not allow the rules 
to be
> > modified by higher principles such as equity, or justice, or 
fairness.
> 
> Hmmm. Snape is Inspector Javert. I wonder if he will break, as 
Javert
> did. Any other Les Miserables fans out there want to explore the
> similarity?
> 
> I didn't have time to read the whole post (sorry) and I have to go 
deal
> with the little one now....I'll be pondering.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
It's a few years since I've read the book/seen the musical, but 
doesn't Inspector Javert commit suicide, partly because he realises 
that his behaviour and regard for crime and punishment has lead to 
obsession and miscarriage of justice (or at least not proportionate 
justice), and that ultimately his behaviour has been inhumane?

I always saw his character as very black/white, which is how I've 
considered Snape - and I think it's the realisation that things 
cannot be assessed in that way which will force Snape to take stock.  
This way of living could also be construed as a form of cowardice - 
it is very easy not to have to think about things and live within the 
confines of an ordered society with a defined set of rules - it takes 
more guts to know when these are not apppropriate and to try and act 
accordingly.

I don't think that I've expressed that very well... I hope you all 
know what I mean!

Catherine






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 13:15:39 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:15:39 +0200
Subject: Ron as Quidditch Ace
References: <9atg33+c130@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e401c0c1c0$568a9c20$5972023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 16244

Well, since Ron's still on, I'll launch into my own pet theory (already
aired--to vigorous head-scratching--during last week's chat):

*I* hereby wager 5 Butterbeers that Ron'll be the next Gryffindor quidditch
captain. Now that Wood is gone, they'll need a new keeper. Ron, who is
lanky, has the right build--and he certainly has a passion for the game. My
guess is that they'll bring him in as a sort of second rate substitute, then
realize that he's not only a good keeper but a great strategist.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who, having just discovered the Sugar
Quill, is afraid he might get bannished there for incurable Ronophilia ... )
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 13:18:56 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <20010410131856.11100.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16245

--- heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
> I'm just wondering something....
> Just a question I'm tossing out here:
> How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about
> giants and house elves because "he grew up in a
> wizarding family" would be willing to (a) consider
> the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against
> muggle-born witches & wizards, and (b)
> forgive him those?

Well, I'm not saying that we should forgive Ron's
prejudices, just understand where they might be coming
from.  He *does* prove receptive to new ideas, such as
having a half-giant and a house elf as a friend, which
IMO is the true key.  Draco has similar, though even
more pronounced, prejudices against giants, house
elves, and Muggle-borns, but he has thusfar proven
totally resistant to any notion that he might be
wrong.

Anyone can grow up with prejudices, and it's
understandable that this is the first thought in a new
situation.  But it's what they do then that really
makes the difference.



Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From bkdelong at pobox.com  Tue Apr 10 13:25:38 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:25:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] used Sylvan Lane Shoppe?
In-Reply-To: <3AD2FDBC.60A30F08@texas.net>
References: <9aurq0+kne6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010410092249.05ec6ce0@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16246

At 07:34 AM 04/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, I've bought some stuff locally, and then looked at it on the
>Sylvan Lane site, and it's uniformly overpriced. I saw a mobile I paid
>$18 for, that cost in the 20s, and some even more egregious stuff. Plus
>you have to pay postage.

Which is actually understandable - Warner Bros. has a rule that no online 
store can directly sell licensed Harry Potter products unless they have a 
brick-and-mortar equivalent. You'll notice Hasbro and Mattel.....don't sell 
any of their HP products online. Places like Sylvan Lane Shoppe buy them at 
the WB Store themselves and have to account for the markup to make somewhat 
of a profit. Otherwise, they wouldn't exist.

Plus, there's no way for people overseas to get a lot of this stuff 
because, again, they're not in overseas stores and cannot be found online. 
Expres, who does the mugs, doesn't sell stuff online either.

It sucks.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.
http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com     Herb.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 14:11:09 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9av15l+ta2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410141109.70687.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16247

--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> It's a few years since I've read the book/seen the
> musical, but 
> doesn't Inspector Javert commit suicide, partly
> because he realises 
> that his behaviour and regard for crime and
> punishment has lead to 
> obsession and miscarriage of justice (or at least
> not proportionate 
> justice), and that ultimately his behaviour has been
> inhumane?

That was never how I saw it...I'm more familiar with
the musical than the book, so this is where I draw
most of my references to.  But in his song "Stars", he
talks about everything having its place and its
purpose, and how the stars fill the chaos "with order
and light".  Javert sees himself as a star, filling
the chaos of the world with the order of the law.  And
"those who falter and those who fall must pay the
price."  Javert's suicide was because he faltered in
that duty and didn't apprehend Valjean when he had him
at his mercy.

"Must I now allow this man to hold dominion over me?" 
Javert literally cannot comprehend of the idea of
letting this criminal, this element of chaos, hold the
debt of his life.  Valjean upset the entire element of
Javert's universe - Javert believed in order to chaos,
in following your set path, whereas Valjean showed
that a man could rise above his station and be truly
good even after being branded a criminal.  Valjean
believed that his sins would be forgiven by God and he
could do good work on earth, but Javert believed that
a man was either good or evil and God could not allow
both.

"I should have perished by his hand.  It was his
right.  It was my right to die as well."  Javert
believed in the set order of things.  He was hunting a
desperate criminal.  There could be only two possible
outcomes - Valjean or Javert.  Either he would capture
or kill Valjean, or he would die trying. "There is
nothing on earth that we share.  It is either Valjean
or Javert."  He couldn't handle the total upset to his
world that Valjean provided, and so took the "right"
that had been denied to him.  "I'll escape now from
that world, the world of Jean Valjean."

Relating this all back to Professor Snape...<g>
I think the relationship between Snape and the
Potters, jr and sr, is very much like the one between
Javert and Valjean.  As has been already explained
very eloquently, Snape is very much dependent on the
thought of authority and rules to define his world. 
James Potter, and later his son, was the very
antithesis to that worldview.  

Snape believes that the world does (or should) reward
those who follow the rules, like Javert does.  Yet he
sees time and again that this irreverent rulebreaker
gets the rewards - good grades, post of Head Boy, the
beautiful girl, and the immense trust of someone like
Dumbledore.  And then James had the nerve to actually
save his life!  He tries to get around this by telling
himself that James was in on the prank all along and
so it wasn't *really* saving his life, but he knows
down inside that he owes an immense debt to James that
can never be repaid.  (Especially since James is now
dead...killed by Voldemort during a time when Snape
was working for him, at least outwardly.  Hmm...)

Because of this parallel to Javert, I do see Snape as
dying a hero's death in Book 6 or 7.  He sees it as
one final way to balance the scales between him and
the Potters, and as proof that *his* world view really
is correct. It's his right to die and he's going to
make sure he gets his right!


Andrea II


PS - It's occurred to me that I've written a *LOT* of
posts in a very short time of being a list member.  I
just want to say thanks to all of you wonderful people
for analyzing these things with me and giving me a
place to get my HP fix and argue out all these points.
 You're the best! :)

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 14:28:53 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:28:53 -0500
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
References: <99t69h+o0j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD318A5.C0785F41@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16248

Hi --

I know we're talking about Ron this week, but I'd had this message about
Percy in my inbox for awhile, meaning to reply when I had more time.
So, here goes:

Demelza wrote:

> Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the
> fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been looking
> pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy"
> Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) <snip>
> Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 17, that Ginny was
> beginning to think Percy suspected she was involved with the Chamber
> ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm pale and I'm not myself. I
> think he suspects me
"). That, in itself, is a credible reason for
> Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16.

Interesting.  I took the above incidents to mean that Percy was more
perceptive than the other Weasley boys and had picked up on her
distress.  None of the others seem to notice there's anything amiss with
her.  But, Percy is perceptive enough to make her take some medicinal
potion (a protective older brother rather than a bully in my mind).  He
also apparently notices and comments more than once that she is pale,
doesn't look well & doesn't seem herself.  How can this be anything
other than concern for her?  She may be interpreting his concern
strangely, because she's worried that she will lose his respect/love if
he finds out the "truth" about what's ailing her.  But, he clearly
demonstrates concern for her.  I don't think she's afraid of Percy so
much as she's afraid of him losing respect for her.  That's really what
I was getting at when I said that she "hero-worships" him.  That wasn't
the right choice of words.  But, what I mean is that Ginny does seem to
value his good opinion of her.

> So let's examine what the books contain about Percy and his attitudes
> toward his family.
> <snip>
> (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron sit
> in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a "time
> of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. Throughout
> the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and ready
> to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto
> head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory
> while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being
> terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.

> Milz added: As
> the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers instead of
> locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older kids in
> a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the younger
> kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of shunned
> his duty, so to speak.
>

Someone else commented on this, but it bears repeating.  Everyone
handles crisis differently.  Percy is just the type to need solitary
introspective time at that point, and I don't think it's fair to be
judgmental about him because of the way he needs/chooses to handle
stress & grief.  It's clear that he's very different from the twins and
Ron as far as his personality goes.  I don't know that it's at all fair
to suggest that he has a "duty" to be outwardly & publicly comforting to
his siblings just because he's "de facto" the eldest Weasley.  He's got
a right to handle grief & shock in the way that most suits his own
personality.  IMO.

> (GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming with
> Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron up.
> Percy is described as "pale".

He looked "white and somehow younger than usual."  You left out the last
bit.  He also waded out to meet them.  He abandoned the dignity of being
a judge and took off out into the lake.  I'm amazed that anyone could
put a negative spin on Percy for this particular scene.  What it says to
me is: in the face of true physical danger to a family member, Percy
will abandon rules, authority & his position.

> A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a negative
> connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the clutches of
> a madman.

I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that shows
strong emotional connection.

> Percy's actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have been
> really be concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than the one
> hour. On
> the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside
> herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron and
> Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim with her
> to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed
> anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that
> Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's Ministry
> Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this too.
> Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action is not
> objectively clear-cut.

Oh, c'mon!  Sure, Percy as a judge objectively knew the rules, but he
was so concerned about Ron's well-being that he completely forgot the
"rules" for once & acted completely on his emotions.  IMO anyway.  I
just see very little room for argument that Percy waded into the lake &
clutched at Ron, looking "younger than usual," as a means of drawing
attention to himself & away from Ron and Harry!  Sorry .... but I can't
see that there's much basis to this argument.  If he'd wanted to assume
his usual stance of "authority figure," he'd have simply waited at the
water's edge & launched into a lecture the second Ron touched land.

> I said: >However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not Ron's.
>
> Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's.
> <snip> In spite of Trelawney's track record, Hermione still considered
> her a "fraud".

JKR does seem to be poking fun at Trelawney though, and most of her
"correct" perdictions are easily explained away by logic or
coincidence.  Dumbledore himself attributes her with only 2 correct
predictions; you've given her a far greater track record.  <g>

> Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh treatment
> of Winky.

Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the measure
of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius thinks
Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
character.

> Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems to have respected Winky enough
> to consider her opinions. Dobby was terrified of Malfoy. Winky
> retained a fondness for the Crouches: that should have raised a red
> flag.

Dobby is the exception rather than the rule.  He's consistently painted
as the "odd bird" amongst house-elves.  Winky is illustrating the
typical house elf attitude of complete & total subservience, even in the
face of disgrace & poor treatment.  I don't think Crouch considered her
opinions as much as he had some guilt working for his neglect of his son
during the formative years.

> Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get Scabbers, as
> Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get
> Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal traitor, but
> it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about
> Crookshank.

Ron was wrong there too.  :--)

> Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has
> always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of Harry.
> Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron
> thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, thinks
> Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are lies.

But, Ron's reactions are motivated by jealousy.  Harry ends up with
everything.  I always thought Ron was using the "you're lying to me"
business as a cover-up for "You're years below the age-line but still
you get to compete for that money & glory."

> Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission in
> Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that
> Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very
> seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon they're
> trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.

Amy Z said it far better than I did, but yes, Ron's jealousy is the
underlying reason for the feud.  Ron is jealous of Harry and that
jealousy turns into stubborn pride.  He refuses to admit that Harry was
telling the truth when he said he didn't put his own name in the
Goblet.  He refuses to admit that Harry might be in danger because
someone else put his name in the Goblet instead.  He's so eaten up with
jealousy over the potential winnings & glory that he can't even see how
shocked/stunned/scared Harry is when his name comes out of the Goblet.
Hermione saw this; how is it that Ron didn't?  Jealousy.  I think he
can't admit the truth because he'd have to put his jealousy aside to do
so.

> The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is that
> Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She judges a
> person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any "bad"
> actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). Conversely she
> judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" from
> that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the "gray
> areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. IMO, this
> quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging character.

Ron certainly employs black/white logic when thinking about Snape
though, doesn't he?  Hermione, OTOH, is clearly capable of seeing
Snape's gray areas.

Amy Z wrote:

> She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get
> Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil of her
> own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  She
> doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's because he's
> a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's not as
> blind as you're making her out to be.
>
Perfect!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  <g>

Penny
(card-carrying member of Percy Fans Unite!)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 14:34:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:34:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 37 Summary
References: <9ashoq+31fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD319E5.DBDEBBC9@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16249

Hi --

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> And now comes the moment that launched a thousand Ships. Hermione
> kisses Harry on the cheek. A friendly gesture? The surfacing of a
> secret crush?

Lovely phrasing, but the Kiss didn't "launch" any of the ships!  They
were all out at sea long before the Kiss I think.  <g>

> Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione naive to
> think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and not publish
> for
> an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. Isn't that worse than
> anything Rita has done?

I think the question about Hermione's naivete depends on how seriously
the Ministry would view the offense of being an unregistered animagus.
If it carries really horrible penalties (a stint in Azkaban for
example), then Hermione pretty much has Rita handled.  If it's just a
minor offense, then yes, she's being a bit naive to think Rita will give
up all the good scoops during the next year.  With all that's going to
be going on, an unregistered animagus may not register much on the
priority scale at the MoM though, regardless of how seriously it might
have been viewed in times of peace.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Tue Apr 10 14:42:56 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:42:56 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: Extended
In-Reply-To: <20010409215109.1824.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9av65g+cqv4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16250

> The chess-playing, intellectual Ron seems to
> have vanished.  He seems much more jumpy and physical in the late
> volumes.

Well, I don't think he's vanished.  It's definitely true that the 
references to chess have been much subtler ever since his shining 
moment on McGonagall's chess set - but they've been there. And when 
he's "jumpy and physical" I tend to attribute it to his being an 
early-teenaged boy with a lot of growing going on.

> Can anyone find a reference to Ron playing chess or doing something
> otherwise intellectually stimulating in the last two books, at 
> least?

Sure.  I don't have PoA with me, but I know that after his fight with 
Hermione, Ron steps up to the plate and offers her his help with 
Buckbeak's case.  He follows through on that offer, is visibly shaken 
when Hagrid loses the appeal, and says something about it being 
unfair when they'd put in so much work on the defense. Also, during 
the time between trials, I believe there's one instance when Ron is so 
absorbed in reading up on Hippogriffs that he doesn't notice 
Crookshanks jumping up next to him.  Then, in GoF, he's up as late as 
the rest of them in the library, looking up possible spells for the 
second task.  He also helps to drill Harry on hexes, etc., for the 
third task. 

As for chess, I know there are more references than this and I wish I 
had time to check through for all of them: "He liked it best when he 
was with Ron and Hermione and they were talking about other things, or 
else letting him sit in silence while they played chess." - GoF 

~Arabella




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Tue Apr 10 14:58:07 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:58:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Prefects AND Burning Feathers (was Re: [Ron Week]: More Questions--and more and more...)
In-Reply-To: <986896254.2046.66870.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410145807.34652.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16251

--- "Lisa" <linman6868 at aol.com> skrev: 
> Even so, I don't recall him screwing up in Potions at all (unlike Harry whose Confusing
> Concoction won't thicken in PoA), whereas there are numerous examples of him crashing
> and burning in Charms and Transfiguration--I always laugh at the part where he has to
> put that feather out with his hat--is it in PS/SS? or CoS?.

It's in PS, Chapter Ten "Hallowe'en" (p. 126 UK paperback edition), and it's Seamus who
puts fire to the feather, though Ron does have his problems:

   "It was very difficult.  Harry and Seamus swished and flicked, but the feather they
were supposed to be sending skywards just lay on the desktop.  Seamus got so impatient
that he prodded it with his wand and set fire to it - Harry had to put it out with his
hat.
   Ron, at the next table, wasn't ahving much more luck"
   '/Wingardium Leviosa!/' he shouted, waving his long arms like a windmill.
   'You're saying it wrong,' Harry heard Hermione snap.  'It's Wing-/gar/-dium
Levi-/o/-sa, make the "gar" nice and long.'
   'You do it, then, if you're so clever,' Ron snarled.
   Hermione rolled up the sleeves of her gown, flicked her wand and said '/Wingardium
Leviosa/!'
   Their feather rose off the desk, and hovered about four feet above their heads."

Does anyone remember if Ron has similar problems with Charms and Transfiguration after he
gets his new wand in the beginning of PoA?

--- "Lisa" <linman6868 at aol.com> skrev:
> Query:  is there only one Prefect per House?  

Doubt it - it would seem prudent to have one prefect of each gender at least.  Also, in
PS, Chapter Six "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three Quarters" (p. 72 UK
paperback-edition), the following appears (it's Percy talking):  

"'Can't stay long, Mother,' he said.  'I'm up front, the Prefects have got two
compartments to themselves-'"

The compartments on the Hogwarts Express sound like they're sized to six or eight
persons, but given that the prefects are senior students, six is a more likely figure for
how many can squeeze in there, with luggage and all.  If there were only four Prefects
plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they would need only one compartment.  If you have eight
prefects plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they fit nicely into two compartments, with a bit
of room to spare.  If Head Boy and Head Girl are included in the eight prefects (but I
don't think they are - just a gut-feeling), they still need two compartments.

1.  Could somebody summon up the number of the post by John (I think) about the duties of
prefects in British public schools (in the British sense of the word)?

2.  Is there an FAQ being written about British public schools?  If not, should perhaps
the above-mentioned post be archived with the FAQs?

Best regards
Christian Stub

______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Organiser sammenkomsten p http://no.invites.yahoo.com



From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Tue Apr 10 15:05:21 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:05:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Obsession rating
References: <20010410145807.34652.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD32131.147DD5D9@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16252

Hello everybody!!!! And a good morning to all!!!

I was wondering.....everyone is talking about being 60% obsessed, or 102% obsessed....how do you find this out? Is there a quiz with scoring, etc? I would be interested to know.....

Hugs
Jamieson
--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 15:10:48 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:10:48 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9asr7h+angn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9av7po+p7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16253

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

> (b) does Draco have any idea what an insult "Mudbloods" is - I have 
>a little backstory on this which basically takes place after Ron's 
>Slug curse backfires, which involves Draco asking other 
>Slytherins, "What did I say?" and  a Gryffindor Quidditch player 
>interjecting, "You called her a Mudblood!" and him replying, "Yeah, 
>so? Her parents are Muggles, she's a witch, so she's a Mudblood. 
>What of it?" and one of the Gryffs saying "It's a horrible insult!
>(etc)", then Draco writing home and asking Lucius, who says, "No 
>it's not, it's the same as saying somebody is tall or short. It's 
>just a fact about them." And of course, Draco believes Lucius...I 
>see Draco as being very clueless about the world, and having grown 
>up like a hothouse plant - very insulated, everything he reads & 
>everyone he meets, until he gets to Hogwarts, pretty closely 
>screened - and even at Hogwarts, within Slytherin, none of them are 
>likely to contradict his use of a term like that. He doesn't use the 
>word at all in PoA (I checked!) and in GoF, only uses it twice - 
>once against Hermi, and then here on the train. And even I can't 
>quite figure out why... Maybe Cassie will have some food for thought 
>on this.
> 

I presume you're seriously suggesting this theory, right? Tongue 
firmly out of cheek? (just to make sure I'm not making an idiot of 
myself...). Well, it's very ingenious and I'm more and more inclined 
to read Surfeit but I really don't think that the canon supports it.

When Draco calls Hermione Mudblood for the first time, she had just 
pointed out, in public, that he (Draco) is in the Slytherin team not 
for his skill, but because of his money. He tells her (approximately, 
I don't have the book here to check), "Nobody asked you, Mudblood". 
This is an angry retort to a very pointed insult. Do you really think 
it reasonable that in these circumstances he would use a term that is 
*not* insulting? Has he hesitated to insult her (or anybody else - 
think of poor Neville!) in similar situations?
Further more, on what do you base the Orchid Draco theory? I didn't 
get any impression that he was shielded from common wizard culture at 
all. In GoF, for instance, he has a subscription for the Daily 
Prophet. At the Dark Arts store (beginning of CoS) Lucius tells Draco 
that <paraphrase> it is not wise not to seem fond of Harry Potter 
when "most of our kind" view him as a hero. You don't give 
sophisticated, cynical advice of that sort to a hothouse flower who 
is innocent of all knowledge of such things, do you? 
Another point. To keep a child from realizing that 'nigger' (the 
parallel of Mudblood) is an insult would argue insulation of such an 
extroadinary degree, that it precludes almost any normal contact with 
other people. But Draco is sent to Hogwarts. If his father had this 
plan of keeping Draco in a state of pristine innocence, would he risk 
his being contaminated in Hogwarts?

BTW, I also don't agree with any of the "nice" interpretations of  
Draco. He has lied, cheated, bullied, made trouble, used people and 
told tales. He is a horrible boy. He is so horrible (and he's horrid 
too!) that he seems almost to be an embodiment of the worst and most 
extreme qualities of the Slytherin spirit.

Naama








From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 15:24:37 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WAS: UnFunny Things - NOW Something Else
In-Reply-To: <9av7po+p7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410152437.24012.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16254

I find myself full of questions this week and the last post on Draco
brings up another one.

Several times I have read that a particular character is
such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as
detailed in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section
of PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction sit
in terms of discussion of the books?  

I haven't read anything but the books.  I'm prepared to make
predictions of future actions or deduce past actions (like Snape's
background or Draco's home life) but based on the "canon" as it's
been called.

Clarification, anyone?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 15:27:15 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:27:15 -0500
Subject: Changes in Vocabulary
References: <9aq4b5+kl50@eGroups.com> <00c601c0c121$90669f60$9114a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AD32653.4DCB8D42@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16255

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> Sorry, but JKR made ALL of the editing changes "by herself."
>
> >From a Scholastic Interview:
>
> Q. What kind of manuscript changes had to be made to make the U.S.
> version more understandable to American readers? Specific things, like
> the title change of the first Harry Potter book?
>
> A. Very few changes have been made in the manuscript. Arthur Levine,
> my
> American editor, and I decided that words should be altered only where
> we
> felt they would be incomprehensible, even in context, to an American
> reader. I have had some criticism from other British writers about
> allowing any changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that
> argument is to go and tell French and Danish children that we will not
> be translating Harry Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.
> The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that the
>
> British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. We
> discussed
> several alternative titles and 'Sorcerer's Stone' was my idea.
>
> From:
> http://www.southwestnews.com/rowling.htm
>
>
> Q: Do you assist with the vernacular, idiomatic expression and other
> vocabulary changes between the UK and the US versions of the HP series
> ?
> (Jenny Lando)
>
> A: Do I assist ? I do it all! <snip>
> (JKR)
>
> Ahem ... does this make JKR an idiot?

I think you've got a good point, Doreen.  But, I don't think it's quite
correct to say that JKR does all the changes "by herself."  She was
clearly influenced into making some changes initially (the title for
example), and at that point, she must not have felt she had any real
leverage to resist those types of changes.  I think she has a good point
about not "translating" British expressions for American readers being
akin to refusing to translate into other languages.  I would have rather
seen it in a glossary is all.

But, technically speaking, I'm sure that there is coordination between
the American editorial staff & JKR.  I'm sure they point out some things
that they believe ought to be changed or explained.  I'm sure she's not
*literally* making the changes herself.  I suspect she was just taking
some of the heat off Scholastic, if she did in fact believe that making
these types of changes was a good idea.

It does seem that they've all back-pedaled on this issue though.  Maybe
it was the rushed timing more than anything, but very few of these
British/American changes were made to GoF (or certainly *lots* less than
say PS/SS).

Melinda wrote:

> I just wanted to speak up with a bit of an opinion on the subject of
> vocabulary changes in the books.  As an adult I would have had no
> problem with having a glossary to look things up.  In fact glossaries
> are quite common in fantasy books which I often read and in those
> that do not have them I am pretty adept at figuring out what a word
> or phrase means.  However let us remember that these books were
> written first with children in mind and not adults.
>
[Everyone on the list probably groaned when they saw this one! "Oh, no
-- Penny hasn't had the baby yet, and she's still around to make the
usual comments on this issue.]  Welcome, Melinda!  You've stepped into
one of my favorite topics.  If you search the message archives, you
could find lots of posts from me on this topic.  Pretty much everytime
anyone says, "Well, this or that can be excused because these are
*childrens' books* after all," I have to step in.  JKR has said over and
over and over that she did *not* write the books with any target
audience in mind.  She's also been critical of parents who let their
children read them too early -- "I know what's coming and it's too much
for younger kids."  She also has steadfastly maintained that she will
not tone down the books for children.  She has a story to tell, and it's
not going to be geared for the 9-12 set.  Harry et al. are going to be
15/16 in the next book.  They'll be 17/18 in the final volume.  These
are not going to be 9-12 books -- not the last volumes.

I think Bloomsbury's marketing dept just stuck that label on PS because
Harry, the protagonist, was 11 in that book.  I don't believe they
consulted JKR at all about how the books should be marketed.

She's also said she's not at all surprised by the large adult following
she has since she wrote PS as something she herself would enjoy.

Ebony may step in with her usual thoughts on your last sentence quoted
above.  I agree with her that we're not giving American kids enough
credit if we think they can't figure out some of this through context or
by (gasp!) going to the dictionary!

> Though these books have become universally loved by adults and children I wonder a
> bit if they would have achieved such success if JKR had not been
> willing to bend a bit.  Would US children have enjoyed the books as
> much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar
> words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.
>
If they're struggling to read at age 9-12, the American education system
is in far worse shape than I thought.  I'm not downplaying the slow
learners or anything.  But, the vast majority of American children in
the 9-12 age group (the "alleged" target audience) can read.  If they
are really honestly just learning to read, they are far too young (in my
mind) to be reading any of the later books anyway.

Penny
(ending her rant more quickly than normal -- <g>)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 15:47:49 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:47:49 -0000
Subject: Mudblood as an insult
In-Reply-To: <9av7po+p7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9av9v5+6c64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16256

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > (b) does Draco have any idea what an insult "Mudbloods" is 
> I presume you're seriously suggesting this theory, right? Tongue 
> firmly out of cheek? (just to make sure I'm not making an idiot of 
> myself...). Well, it's very ingenious and I'm more and more 
inclined 
> to read Surfeit but I really don't think that the canon supports it.
Oh, you really should. It's pretty intensely canon based, you see, 
and the missing scenes from books 3 & 4 are backed up by canon stuff. 

> 
> When Draco calls Hermione Mudblood for the first time, she had just 
> pointed out, in public, that he (Draco) is in the Slytherin team 
not 
> for his skill, but because of his money. He tells her 
(approximately, 
> I don't have the book here to check), "Nobody asked you, Mudblood". 
> This is an angry retort to a very pointed insult. Do you really 
think 
> it reasonable that in these circumstances he would use a term that 
is 
> *not* insulting? 
Oh, I am sure he knows that it's an insult. I said in my original 
post "what an insult" - I could have stated it clearer, but that does 
mean, translated into simpler words, "does Draco have any idea of how 
bad an insult the term "Mudblood" is?" In other words, in his realm 
of understanding, is it somewhere on the continuum closer 
to "jerk", "b*tch", or the word that begins with an N and rhymes with 
trigger? What level of insult did he think he was throwing at her? 


> Further more, on what do you base the Orchid Draco theory? I didn't 
> get any impression that he was shielded from common wizard culture 
at 
> all. In GoF, for instance, he has a subscription for the Daily 
> Prophet. At the Dark Arts store (beginning of CoS) Lucius tells 
Draco 
> that <paraphrase> it is not wise not to seem fond of Harry Potter 
> when "most of our kind" view him as a hero. You don't give 
> sophisticated, cynical advice of that sort to a hothouse flower who 
> is innocent of all knowledge of such things, do you? 

You're completely misstating what I said. I never used the 
word "innocent" and certainly wouldn't've used it in the traditional 
definition context, meaning "free from guilt or sin especially 
through lack of knowledge of evil" (merriam webster website 
definition #1). I think Draco has some knowledge about Lucius' 
interest in the Dark Arts, although it is clear in Book 2 that he 
does *not* know exactly what is going on with CoS, and it also can be 
reasonably inferred that between books 2 and 4, he has learned more 
both about the world and about the Dark Arts. And if you are trying 
to control what your little seedling learns and the perspectives on 
the world that he has, then yes, you do give him cynical advice, 
mischaracterize facts, and try to teach him to lie and cheat and 
manipulate if you youself think those are good qualities to instill. 

> Another point. To keep a child from realizing that 'nigger' (the 
> parallel of Mudblood) is an insult would argue insulation of such 
an 
> extroadinary degree, that it precludes almost any normal contact 
with 
> other people. 

To a large extent, that's true. You have to refrain from sending said 
child to school, to only invite playmates whose parents have similar 
beliefs over for playdates, keep the child away from television sets 
and radios, and screen the books that the child reads. How many of 
these things would be impossible for Lucius Malfoy to do? You don't 
think Draco could've had tutors instead of attending school with 
other children? You don't think that Lucius let any random wizarding 
child of the same age come over to play in Draco's magnificent 
treehouse? You don't think that if he really wanted such control over 
what Draco learned, he could have had it? 

> But Draco is sent to Hogwarts. If his father had this 
> plan of keeping Draco in a state of pristine innocence, would he 
risk 
> his being contaminated in Hogwarts?
The impression I have from the wizarding schooling system is that one 
cannot become a qualified wizard without having attended a wizarding 
school and taking OWLs and NEWTs. Therefore, Draco had to go 
somewhere - and I can think of at least 7 reasons why it's Hogwarts 
instead of somewhere else, but they're all non-canon based creative 
conjecture, so let's leave them for another time. 
Maybe the people who think that neither Snape nor Lucius knew about 
each others' activities reagrding Death Eater-ing are right, and 
Lucius concluded that in Slytherin, Draco at least would be in an 
insular enough environment that he wouldn't be terribly contaminated 
by Dumbledore's ideas. I mean, Slytherin House doesn't seem to be a 
hotbead of freethinkers or tolerance, does it? And again, I never 
said "innocence" - I said explicitly that the "hothouse" atmosphere 
was "pre-hogwarts". I add that by that point, Lucius may've been 
convinced that beliefs had been ingrained in Draco such that the 
foundations couldn't be crumbled by day-to-day Hogwarts life. 

> 
> BTW, I also don't agree with any of the "nice" interpretations of  
> Draco. He has lied, cheated, bullied, made trouble, used people and 
> told tales. He is a horrible boy. He is so horrible (and he's 
horrid 
> too!) that he seems almost to be an embodiment of the worst and 
most 
> extreme qualities of the Slytherin spirit.
Ron and Harry have lied to Snape. Ron has come close to bullying 
Hermione. All three of the "leads" have made trouble for Filch, Snape 
and each other, in varying degrees. Ron and Harry have, to some 
extent, used Hermione, for schoolwork-related purposes. All three 
have told tales to professors (Lockheart and Snape come to mind most 
easily) and Ron has told tales to the rest of the school with regards 
to the second task. But they're not horrible. They're not horrid. 
Yes, I do have issues with Ron, as I discussed in some of my earlier 
posts, but that's not the point of *this* post, is it? But maybe a 
look at Draco from a different perspective (I'm desparately avoiding 
shameless self-promotion here, aren't I?) would be good for you. 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 15:32:42 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:32:42 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Obsession Quiz is in the VFAQs
Message-ID: <3AD3279A.8DB55FBC@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16257

Hi --

Ahem.  Jamieson -- I don't think you've read the handy-dandy VFAQs!
<g>  The answer to your question lies in that document.  A reminder to
all: please read this document even if you choose to ignore our other
wonderful information sources in the Files area.  The VFAQs is meant to
address questions that get asked *all the time.*  It's meant to reduce
message volume by answering questions that they might otherwise post to
the group.  Here again is the handy link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

Penny
The Mod Squad




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 15:59:58 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:59:58 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <3AD260EF.AA8B429F@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9avalu+mdvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> I'm just wondering something....
> 
> Andrea wrote:
> 
> > --- Penny wrote:
> >
> > > He seems
> > > a bit too ready to
> > > judge people based on preconceived notions -- giants
> > > & house-elves for
> > > example.
> >
> > Harry and Hermione didn't grow up in wizard families
> > and therefore don't have the usual prejudices.  If H&H
> > had been talking to Neville or Seamus, for example,
> > the conversation might've gone much the same way.
> >
> 
> Just a question I'm tossing out here:
> How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house 
elves because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to 
(a) consider the genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against muggle-
born witches & wizards, and (b)
> forgive him those?

Prejudice becomes vicious when it is coupled with hate. Ron's 
prejudice against giants, house-elves and werewolves is not a good 
thing to have. But, unlike Draco's prejudice against muggle-born 
wizards, it is not expressed in the context of murderous attacks on 
innocent members of these groups.


Naama




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 16:02:35 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:02:35 -0000
Subject: WAS: UnFunny Things - NOW Something Else
In-Reply-To: <20010410152437.24012.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9avaqr+1cse@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16259

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> Several times I have read that a particular character is
> such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as
> detailed in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section
> of PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction 
sit
> in terms of discussion of the books?  
> 
> I haven't read anything but the books.  I'm prepared to make
> predictions of future actions or deduce past actions (like Snape's
> background or Draco's home life) but based on the "canon" as it's
> been called.
> 
> Clarification, anyone?

I think you might be refering to my post of earlier this week, where 
I mention "backstory" - that specifically meant something in my head 
(although I put the whole of it into the post) which is based on 
canon, but is really, admittedly, just how I personally view a 
character. Other examples of "backstory" which are not part of canon, 
but which have been discussed on-list are:
1. Sirius was a flirt/ladies man at Hogwarts
2. Snape was in love with Lily
3. Remus Lupin started Hogwarts a few years after first years 
normally do - maybe at 13 or 14 - when Dumbledore became headmaster
4. Vernon & Petunia Dursley have had more contact with Dumbledore/the 
wizarding world than they admit to Harry
5. Lucius Malfoy & Arthur Weasley were at Hogwarts together
6. the Dark WIzard Grindlewald worked with Hitler during the 30s and 
40s
7. The whole "why Sirius & James suspected Remus of being the spy" 
thing

Some backstories come from/are incorporated into fanfics, others are 
just discussed onlist. IMHO, predictions of future actions and 
deductions of past actions are all canon-based, BUT the reason the 
admins keep asking for people to post book citations when they 
discuss "facts" from the books is to prevent "bleed-in" from fanfic. 
And the reason I always make it clear in my posts when I'm discussing 
fanfic, and I only discuss it as an "option" or a "possibility" of 
what might have happened/might happen in the future. 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 16:03:49 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:03:49 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <9avalu+mdvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avat5+6sbq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16260

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> Prejudice becomes vicious when it is coupled with hate. Ron's 
> prejudice against giants, house-elves and werewolves is not a good 
> thing to have. But, unlike Draco's prejudice against muggle-born 
> wizards, it is not expressed in the context of murderous attacks on 
> innocent members of these groups.


Naama - I'm really confused! Can you please provide a book/chapter 
citation for these "murderous attacks"?
I didn't see them in any of the four books I've read.




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 16:10:30 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:10:30 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: Prejudices - a question
In-Reply-To: <9avat5+6sbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avb9m+dtjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16261

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > 
> > Prejudice becomes vicious when it is coupled with hate. Ron's 
> > prejudice against giants, house-elves and werewolves is not a 
good 
> > thing to have. But, unlike Draco's prejudice against muggle-born 
> > wizards, it is not expressed in the context of murderous attacks 
on 
> > innocent members of these groups.
> 
> 
> Naama - I'm really confused! Can you please provide a book/chapter 
> citation for these "murderous attacks"?
> I didn't see them in any of the four books I've read.

Sorry. I thought it was clear I meant the attacks on muggle-borns in 
CoS. 

Naama 




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 16:15:20 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:15:20 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3AD319E5.DBDEBBC9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9avbio+lqnf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16262

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> > And now comes the moment that launched a thousand Ships. Hermione
> > kisses Harry on the cheek. A friendly gesture? The surfacing of a
> > secret crush?
> 
> Lovely phrasing, but the Kiss didn't "launch" any of the ships!  
They
> were all out at sea long before the Kiss I think.  <g>
> 
> > Voldemort's return is the scoop of the century. Is Hermione naive 
to
> > think Rita Skeeter will keep her end of the bargain and not 
publish
> > for
> > an entire year? Hermione is now a kidnapper. Isn't that worse than
> > anything Rita has done?
> 
> I think the question about Hermione's naivete depends on how 
seriously
> the Ministry would view the offense of being an unregistered 
animagus.
> If it carries really horrible penalties (a stint in Azkaban for
> example), then Hermione pretty much has Rita handled.  If it's just 
a
> minor offense, then yes, she's being a bit naive to think Rita will 
give
> up all the good scoops during the next year.  With all that's going 
to
> be going on, an unregistered animagus may not register much on the
> priority scale at the MoM though, regardless of how seriously it 
might
> have been viewed in times of peace.
> 
> Penny
> 
Actually, Penny -- 

this post of yours just kicked me between the eyes like Buckbeak in a 
bad mood  and I had an idea.

I am inclined to think unregistered animagi will likely be treated 
(once certain events come to light) with even more seriousness now 
that Voldemort's back.

Why?

Peter Pettigrew hid for 13 years in his animagi form and got off 
(until recently) scot-free and framed an innocent man for his crime 
(although MoM isn't aware of that yet and I wish they'd find out!) 

Any animagus who doesn't register is *potentially* a dark wizard, and 
also potentially a Death Eater with allegiance to the Big V.  

That's probably Dumbledore's thinking, anyway.

Fudge's thinking would just result in him scoffing, I fear.

More's the pity.

I want to see the rat get his.  

bigtime!








From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Apr 10 12:18:14 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:18:14 EST5EDT
Subject: Dumbledore and Lockhart
Message-ID: <5CF6B60840@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16263

We discussed this in my class when we read CoS.  Someone 
asked why Dumbledore had hired Lockhart in the first place and 
then not fire him when it was obvious that he wasn't teaching 
anything substantial to the children (he had not read any of the 
other books, as we were required to read only CoS, but it was his 
guess that other teachers had/will taught/teach useful stuff).

We drew the conclusion that this was just to teach us, again, to 
never judge someone by their appearance only.

But then we got into an argument about how Dumbledore "wasted" 
a whole year of the children's DADA training just to teach them this 
lesson.

It was an ugly class that day, my friends.  :-)





From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 16:23:33 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:23:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Summary: Hermione Kisses Harry 
In-Reply-To: <3AD319E5.DBDEBBC9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9avc25+s8gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16264

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> > And now comes the moment that launched a thousand Ships. Hermione
> > kisses Harry on the cheek. A friendly gesture? The surfacing of a
> > secret crush?
> 
> Lovely phrasing, but the Kiss didn't "launch" any of the ships!  
They
> were all out at sea long before the Kiss I think.  <g>
> 

I believe it's a friendly gesture.

Hermione's had a crush on Gilderoy *gag* Lockhart we know for sure.  
And given the way she reacted to Ron with regard to the dance and 
getting a date for said dance; I'm inclined to think if she likes 
anybody of the same year at Hogwarts, it's young Master Weasley.

She *might* have just been annoyed that he was treating her like she 
couldn't *possibly* land a date for the dance,  but it looked to me 
at the time of the first reading (I haven't gotten to my 2nd reread 
of the 4th book yet!) that she would gladly have gone to the dance 
with Ron if he'd only asked, rather than being thick-headed about it.

Come to think of it, Ron and Hermione have had a rather  Dave-n-
Maddie (Moonlighting), Holt-n-Steele (Remington Steele) relationship 
from the beginning...marked by many fierce and fiery battles of 
strong temper, but with deep affection underneath it all. Harry 
rarely has quarrels or altercations with Hermione. Ron and Hermione 
are nigh-constantly bickering and exchanging snide and sarcastic 
remarks.

Hmmm.

And now, let me go backread to Ron Week.  

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 16:30:44 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:30:44 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <5CF6B60840@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <9avcfk+slu0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16265

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> We discussed this in my class when we read CoS.  Someone 
> asked why Dumbledore had hired Lockhart in the first place and 
> then not fire him when it was obvious that he wasn't teaching 
> anything substantial to the children (he had not read any of the 
> other books, as we were required to read only CoS, but it was his 
> guess that other teachers had/will taught/teach useful stuff).
> 
> We drew the conclusion that this was just to teach us, again, to 
> never judge someone by their appearance only.
> 
> But then we got into an argument about how Dumbledore "wasted" 
> a whole year of the children's DADA training just to teach them 
this 
> lesson.
> 
> It was an ugly class that day, my friends.  :-)

It could be rebutted that it wasn't a waste of time:

Hermione probably read every Lockhart book cover to cover, as did any 
other girl of the same year who had a crush on Gilderoy.

The whole class did learn _something_ : i.e. "don't set loose a bunch 
of pixies."

Ron and Harry saw through Lockhart's charade; and they're the only 
two who we know did.  It's possible other kids did and sought out 
learning elsewhere...either in the library, or through doing 
something constructive in DADA class, or cutting it entirely and 
boning up on another subject.

Indigo
[who is desperately distracting herself from a herniated disk and the 
unspeakable pain thereof.  Where's Madame Pomfrey when you really 
need her?!] 






From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 16:30:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:30:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and Lockhart
References: <5CF6B60840@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <3AD3351A.EE0C26BB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16266

Rachel Bray wrote:

> We discussed this in my class when we read CoS.  Someone
> asked why Dumbledore had hired Lockhart in the first place and then
> not fire him when it was obvious that he wasn't teaching anything
> substantial to the children (he had not read any of the other books,
> as we were required to read only CoS, but it was his guess that other
> teachers had/will taught/teach useful stuff).

But according to Hagrid, who was in a position to know, there were no
other applicants. What could Dumbledore do, but let Lockhart muddle
through and look on the bright side of what the students *did* get
exposed to? Who's to say that Dumbledore hadn't been spending an
inordinate amount of time sending owls to find someone for the next
year, when Lockhart's contract expired, or something like that?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 16:37:02 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:37:02 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's loyalty to Dumbledore
Message-ID: <9avcre+tnfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16267

It was proposed in a post last week (sorry, I don't know who it was, 
and there are too many to look through), that Hagrid's loyalty to 
Dumbledore may be tested when he goes of on a diplomatic mission to 
the giants.  I think it was thought that perhaps he might feel 
comfortable amongst his own kind, and that if the giants decided to 
remain with Voldemort, Hagrid may find himself more ambivalent 
towards Dumbledore.

This idea doesn't weigh well with me at all, for various reasons.
On the positive side, Hagrid absolutely worships Dumbledore ("He's a 
great man, Dumbledore," repeated ad infinitum as a catchphrase 
throughout all the books).  Dumbledore has given him every chance, 
when others would have cast him aside, has forgiven him his foibles 
and mistakes and given him gradually more and more responsibility - 
and fetching Harry both times was a major responsibility, both 
times.  I am still of the opinion that Dumbledore is infallible in 
his deciding who and who not to trust.
Hagrid also thinks the world of Harry.  I can't see him doing 
anything at all to hurt their relationship.
Hagrid also thought the world of his wizarding father.  He speaks 
very sentimentally about him, about how he looked after him, and how 
he was pleased that he wasn't alive to live through the shame of 
seeing his son expelled from school.  
On the other side of this, Hagrid's giantess mother abandoned him 
when he was small, and left him to be brought up by his father.  How 
likely is Hagrid to show loyalty to her and the other giants,  rather 
than the memory of his dead father?
Finally, a very minor point, is that Hagrid is about 12feet shorter 
than your average giant.  Being looked upon as a dwarf in a giant 
world may be novel to start with, but I think that it would wear off 
rapidly!

Catherine, who realises that she hasn't read any character stuff on 
Hagrid previously posted, but did think that the issue had genuinely 
come up again.




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 10 16:36:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:36:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WAS: UnFunny Things - NOW Something Else
References: <20010410152437.24012.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD33684.3197257C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16268

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Several times I have read that a particular character is
> such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as detailed
> in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section of
> PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction sit in
> terms of discussion of the books?
>
> I haven't read anything but the books.  I'm prepared to make
> predictions of future actions or deduce past actions (like Snape's
> background or Draco's home life) but based on the "canon" as it's been
> called.
>
> Clarification, anyone?

This is the main reason why I won't read fanfiction. Judging from the
quality of the posters who say they write it, some of it's fantastic,
but I know me and I will inevitably "fuzz" the line between the canon
characters and their fic cousins. I have a lot of fun speculating on the
canon, and I want my "take" on the flavor and "feel" and well, character
of the characters to be strictly based on JKR, at least during the
production of the seven books.

I haven't actually seen any posts that have made mistaken assumptions
involving fanfiction (yet). I have seen a couple where people were
making "canon" statements based on information not in the books, but
from JKR (interview or chat). So I don't think the discussions on this
list have been too "tainted;" most people are apparently better than I
am at keeping the sources separate.

And I again second whoever made the suggestion that someone do a quiz,
with questions based on canon and on fanfiction, to see if fanfiction
has muddled anyone. No idea how to do that, but it'd sure be
interesting.

--Amanda, one of the what, 25%, that didn't read fanfiction according to
the poll?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 10 16:39:51 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:39:51 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9av15l+ta2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avd0n+efb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16269


 Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > Hmmm. Snape is Inspector Javert. I wonder if he will break, as 
> Javert
> > did. Any other Les Miserables fans out there want to explore the
> > similarity?


YES YES YES!!!

 I?ve been aching all along to put up this comparison, but I didn?t 
dare. I thought I made the connection only because I love the book 
(Les Mis) so much and I?m obsessed with analysing Javert?s character 
as well as Snape?s.
But now someone else has thought of this, it?s not so far fetched 
after all.

Thanks Amanda!!! I just LOVE this board and you people (yes, this is 
OT, but I?d just like to say this is exactly the thing I?ve been 
looking for!)

Catherine wrote:

> Doesn't Inspector Javert commit suicide, partly because he realises 
> that his behaviour and regard for crime and punishment has lead to 
> obsession and miscarriage of justice (or at least not proportionate 
> justice), and that ultimately his behaviour has been inhumane?

Javert commits suicide because he has failed, not because he realised 
he was wrong. He found himself trapped between two impossible crimes: 
To let a convicted criminal escape and to arrest him. This situation 
didn?t fit anywhere in his view of the world, and he just couldn?t 
cope with it. Javert?s death is not a redemption, it?s a resignation.

>This way of living could also be construed as a form of cowardice - 
> it is very easy not to have to think about things and live within 
>the  confines of an ordered society with a defined set of rules - it 
>takes  more guts to know when these are not apppropriate and to try 
>and act accordingly.

Exactly. Javert didn?t manage.

Go get the book, Catherine, and read the chapter that ends with 
Javert?s death (I only read the french version, so I don?t know the 
English title, sorry). That chapter was a revelation to me, and I 
think it may be to all people working in a legal profession. 


Andrea sent:

a very good analysis of Javert?s song "stars" in the musical. Think 
what you want about great literary classics turned into musicals, that 
song sums it up very well. Here?s the gist:

> But in his song "Stars", he talks about everything having its place 
and its  purpose, and how the stars fill the chaos "with order
  and light". And  "those who falter and those who fall must pay the
  price." Javert's suicide was because he faltered in
that duty and didn't apprehend Valjean when he had him
 at his mercy.  "Must I now allow this man to hold dominion over me?" 
 Javert literally cannot comprehend of the idea of
  letting this criminal, this element of chaos, hold the
 debt of his life. Valjean upset the entire element of
Javert's universe - Javert believed in order to chaos,
 in following your set path, whereas Valjean showed
 that a man could rise above his station and be truly
 good even after being branded a criminal. 
  "I should have perished by his hand. It was his
 right. It was my right to die as well." " He couldn't handle the 
total upset to his world that Valjean provided, and so took the 
"right"  that had been denied to him. "I'll escape now from
that world, the world of Jean Valjean."

Relating this all back to Professor Snape...<g>
   I think the relationship between Snape and the
   Potters, jr and sr, is very much like the one between
   Javert and Valjean. 

-----------------

Andrea, I agree with everything you say so far. But I do disagree with 
the following:

> Snape believes that the world does (or should) reward
>those who follow the rules, like Javert does. Yet he
> sees time and again that this irreverent rulebreaker
> gets the rewards  And then James had the nerve to actually
>save his life!  he knows
> down inside that he owes an immense debt to James that
>can never be repaid. 

I think the 
life-saving-and-being-indebted-to-your-worst-enemy-parallel between 
Javert and Snape is so obvious that it has lead us to parallel their 
characters and cases entirely. We shouldn?t do that. The parallel ends 
here.

Their reactions, their handling of this immense inner conflict will be 
different. Remember with Javert, the life-saving comes at the very 
end, and his reaction (=suicide) is immediate, while Snape has had the 
better half of his life to brood over how he can handle it.
We see in Snape what might have become of Javert if Javert had fought, 
and lived. They will NOT meet similar ends. That has been decided 
already!

Snape, in opposition to Javert, may see redemption even while he 
lives. He did not chose the "easier" way, which means resignation, but 
the harder way, and will be redeemed for this. He WILL die in the end, 
but not in that stubborn way like Javert, proving himself right.
He may die because it is his duty, but he will not die because it is 
his right. And while we may *hope* that Javert will be forgiven in 
another world, with Snape, we will *know*.

Lea

                      


                      




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Tue Apr 10 16:47:33 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:47:33 -0000
Subject: Ron Week: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9auhg1+1mov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avdf5+3ba4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16270

> Harry and Hermione don't have these 
> preconceptions, as were raised in Muggle homes, but I don't think 
> this excuses Ron - he should rise above it.

He should indeed.  And in many ways, I think he does.  By the end of  
GoF, Ron's only truly unresolved prejudice is that against the 
rights of the house-elves, and IMO, that issue is unresolved 
altogether for everyone.  S.P.E.W. seems to dwindle off even for 
Hermione (though I'd be surprised if it didn't make a comeback on
some 
level) and we never hear anything from Arthur Weasley again after he 
gives Hermione his support on the stand for elfish rights at the 
Quidditch World Cup. 
 
But as for prejudice aside from that against house-elves: we've never 
heard another word from Ron on the subject of werewolves, so I'm 
assuming he managed to get over that one.  Also, Ron needs very  
little prompting to surmount his struggle with his feelings about  
Hagrid being half-giant ("'Who cares?' Harry said. 'There's nothing 
wrong with Hagrid!'  'I know there isn't, but...blimey, no wonder he  
keeps it quiet,' said Ron, shaking his head." And then, "'Well... 
no one who knows him will care, 'cos they'll know he's not
dangerous." 
Granted, Ron goes on to say that "they're just vicious, giants," but  
as he points out, it's more in their natures than anything else, just 
as Hagrid points out that it wasn't in his own mother's nature to be  
maternal.)  From what I've read of Ron, he notices and admits the 
prejudices he feels, is able to discuss them, (yes, he even discusses 
the house-elves; he may be sticking to the wrong guns, but he's got  
guns in that argument - Winky *does* seem extremely miserable having  
been freed and though that's the natural struggle of the oppressed,  
it is still a difficult struggle for a 14 year old to understand),
and 
more often than not, he comes to learn and move forward in his  
thoughts.  After all, what kind of realistic character would Ron be  
if he didn't even have these thoughts to begin with, especially
having 
grown up in the wizarding community? 

> By GoF, I feel that Ron has seriously regressed.  He has almost 
> turned into a clown - bitter, jealous and sad on the inside, a
joker 
> on the outside.  

Wow.  That's a pretty negative painting of a character who gives me a 
lot of joy; let's see what I can say about that.  I'll agree with you 
that Ron has a jealous streak.  Oh yes.  On two levels, really (and I 
 think it's someone from SugarQuill who said this on one of the 
boards; I can't remember whom it was and I apologize for lifting your 
logic).  First, Ron's jealousy is in relationship to Harry's 
limelight.  Secondly, his jealousy is in relationship to other 
people's (not just Harry's, I imagine) material possessions.  

On the limelight issue: I'm hoping that his fight with Harry will  
inform Ron's position on this from here on out, and in fact I think 
we can already see him beginning to be a bigger person on this front 
"In tribute to their recently repaired friendship, Ron had kept the 
bitterness in his voice to a bare minimum."  That's a pretty good 
show for a young guy who's feeling edgy about this whole Yule Ball  
business.  I'm also hoping that, in light of what Harry has just been 
 through with Voldemort, Ron will begin to see that the limelight  
isn't necessarily the best of all places to be.  Of course, that's  
just a hope right now, but I have faith in Ron. <g>  My final hope on 
 that score is that Ron will come into a little limelight of his own  
that will give him a sense of self-worth that kills his jealousy of  
Harry.  (Though, as Ebony has beautifully pointed out, Ron already
has 
a lot of important things that Harry doesn't have, and if he'd wake
up 
and realize it, he'd be a bit better off, emotionally.)  

The material possessions issue is a little different; it cuts very  
deeply into Ron.  He makes comment after comment about his poverty  
and other people's comparative ease.  He's extremely unhappy about
his 
financial situation.  But I think it shows a strength, rather than a  
weakness, that he is willing to admit this in such a forthright  
manner ("I hate being poor.")  In my opinion, that's a damn hard
thing 
to say, especially in front of your best friend who has money and the 
girl you've got a crush on (that's IMO).  Ron is at least aware of  
who he is and what his struggles are and what motivates him.  I think 
 that's a huge first step to improving himself and overcoming those 
emotions. 

>This seems what Harry values him for.  When they are 
> no longer speaking, Harry misses Ron who can make him laugh, talk
to 
> him about Quiddich, make Potions and Divination bearable.  

Yes.  Absolutely.  And we know how much Harry values laughter because 
 at the end of GoF, he more or less purchases some from the twins,
for 
 his future.  "I could do with a few laughs.  We could all do with a  
few laughs.  I've got a feeling we're going to need them more than  
usual before long."   I think that Ron's wisecracking element is  
essential to Harry.  Harry loves him for it. 

>(I hated Ron during the Yule Ball episode, despite feeling very
sorry 
> for him)

Yeah, he was a prat there, wasn't he?  Attraction can cause the best  
of us to go off the deep end, though, I imagine - and that's what I  
see as the root cause of Ron's ridiculous behavior.  I don't worry
too 
much about Hermione, though - she can take care of herself.  She got  
him back nice and quick -  had him mouthing like a goldfish out of 
water by the end of the night. <g>

> Harry and Hermione seem so much more mature 

I'll give you that on the level that both Harry and Hermione seem to 
be able to contain their emotional responses more readily than Ron 
can do.  IMO: Harry acts on his core instinct, Hermione on her
logical 
deductions, and Ron goes more or less right from the gut - emotion  
seems to drive him along and that can be seen as an immature level on 
which to function.  I personally think there's something  
heartbreakingly honest about that kind of emotional impulsiveness,  
but that's just my opinion.  Also, IMO, Hermione and Ron tend to  
function on an identical level from time to time, leaving Harry alone 
 to shoot for the marrow of the issue.  My favorite example of this
is 
 the passage, "'You just don't like Crouch because of that elf,  
Winky' said Ron, sending a cushion soaring into the window.  'You
just 
want to think Snape's up to something,' said Hermione, sending her 
cushion zooming neatly into the box.  'I just want to know what Snape 
did with his first chance; if he's on his second one,' said Harry 
grimly..."   And then again, at the end of GoF, Ron and Hermione 
regard Harry almost as if they are afraid of him.  I don't  
necessarily see Hermione as so much more mature than Ron, on either
of 
these occasions - rather, it is Harry who seems to rise above them  
both.  Of course having seen what he's just seen at the end, that's 
 hardly surprising.

> I am hoping that the events at the end of GoF will hope Ron grow
> up. 

I can't imagine anybody who really loves Harry remaining unaltered at 
 this point.  And since Ron has shown far more friendship than  
fighting toward Harry when all four books are measured, I can't help  
thinking that yes, Ron does love Harry and care about him very much. 

~Arabella





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 16:49:06 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:49:06 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9avd0n+efb0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avdi2+d542@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16271

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
>  Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > Hmmm. Snape is Inspector Javert. I wonder if he will break, as 
> > Javert
> > > did. Any other Les Miserables fans out there want to explore the
> > > similarity?
> 
> Catherine wrote:
> 
> > Doesn't Inspector Javert commit suicide, partly because he 
realises 
> > that his behaviour and regard for crime and punishment has lead 
to 
> > obsession and miscarriage of justice (or at least not 
proportionate 
> > justice), and that ultimately his behaviour has been inhumane?
> 
> Javert commits suicide because he has failed, not because he 
realised 
> he was wrong. He found himself trapped between two impossible 
crimes: 
> To let a convicted criminal escape and to arrest him. This 
situation 
> didn?t fit anywhere in his view of the world, and he just couldn?t 
> cope with it. Javert?s death is not a redemption, it?s a 
resignation.
> 
> >This way of living could also be construed as a form of cowardice -
 
> > it is very easy not to have to think about things and live within 
> >the  confines of an ordered society with a defined set of rules - 
it 
> >takes  more guts to know when these are not apppropriate and to 
try 
> >and act accordingly.
> 
> Exactly. Javert didn?t manage.
> 
> Go get the book, Catherine, and read the chapter that ends with 
> Javert?s death (I only read the french version, so I don?t know the 
> English title, sorry). That chapter was a revelation to me, and I 
> think it may be to all people working in a legal profession. 
> 
> 
Yes, I do need to go back to it - I did say it was a number of years 
ago.  But I still stand by my comparative comments on black/white 
issues, ordered worlds etc.
(By the way, I don't know if you knew, but I'm training to be a 
lawyer at the moment!)
Catherine




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 16:49:01 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:49:01 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9av7po+p7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avdht+3p10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16272

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > (b) does Draco have any idea what an insult "Mudbloods" is - I 
have 
> >a little backstory on this which basically takes place after Ron's 
> >Slug curse backfires, which involves Draco asking other 
> >Slytherins, "What did I say?" and  a Gryffindor Quidditch player 
> >interjecting, "You called her a Mudblood!" and him replying, "Yeah, 
> >so? Her parents are Muggles, she's a witch, so she's a Mudblood. 
> >What of it?" and one of the Gryffs saying "It's a horrible insult!
> >(etc)", then Draco writing home and asking Lucius, who says, "No 
> >it's not, it's the same as saying somebody is tall or short. It's 
> >just a fact about them." And of course, Draco believes Lucius...I 
> >see Draco as being very clueless about the world, and having grown 
> >up like a hothouse plant - very insulated, everything he reads & 
> >everyone he meets, until he gets to Hogwarts, pretty closely 
> >screened - and even at Hogwarts, within Slytherin, none of them are 
> >likely to contradict his use of a term like that. He doesn't use 
the 
> >word at all in PoA (I checked!) and in GoF, only uses it twice - 
> >once against Hermi, and then here on the train. And even I can't 
> >quite figure out why... Maybe Cassie will have some food for 
thought 
> >on this.
> > 
> 
> I presume you're seriously suggesting this theory, right? Tongue 
> firmly out of cheek? (just to make sure I'm not making an idiot of 
> myself...). Well, it's very ingenious and I'm more and more inclined 
> to read Surfeit but I really don't think that the canon supports it.
> 
> When Draco calls Hermione Mudblood for the first time, she had just 
> pointed out, in public, that he (Draco) is in the Slytherin team not 
> for his skill, but because of his money. He tells her 
(approximately, 
> I don't have the book here to check), "Nobody asked you, Mudblood". 
> This is an angry retort to a very pointed insult. Do you really 
think 
> it reasonable that in these circumstances he would use a term that 
is 
> *not* insulting? Has he hesitated to insult her (or anybody else - 
> think of poor Neville!) in similar situations?
> Further more, on what do you base the Orchid Draco theory? I didn't 
> get any impression that he was shielded from common wizard culture 
at 
> all. In GoF, for instance, he has a subscription for the Daily 
> Prophet. At the Dark Arts store (beginning of CoS) Lucius tells 
Draco 
> that <paraphrase> it is not wise not to seem fond of Harry Potter 
> when "most of our kind" view him as a hero. You don't give 
> sophisticated, cynical advice of that sort to a hothouse flower who 
> is innocent of all knowledge of such things, do you? 
> Another point. To keep a child from realizing that 'nigger' (the 
> parallel of Mudblood) is an insult would argue insulation of such an 
> extroadinary degree, that it precludes almost any normal contact 
with 
> other people. But Draco is sent to Hogwarts. If his father had this 
> plan of keeping Draco in a state of pristine innocence, would he 
risk 
> his being contaminated in Hogwarts?
> 
> BTW, I also don't agree with any of the "nice" interpretations of  
> Draco. He has lied, cheated, bullied, made trouble, used people and 
> told tales. He is a horrible boy. He is so horrible (and he's horrid 
> too!) that he seems almost to be an embodiment of the worst and most 
> extreme qualities of the Slytherin spirit.
> 
> Naama

I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious little 
about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, and 
no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I do 
feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with oranges, so 
to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR books 
to the contrary.

Hagridd




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue Apr 10 16:56:27 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:56:27 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avdvr+2mjv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16273

linman6868 at a... wrote:
> And finally, my biggest beef and paradoxically my greatest sympathy 
> with Ron:  The boy can't admit he's wrong to save his life.  I 

wanted 
> to throw something at him all through PoA.  He never did admit to 
? Hermione that he'd been unfair about Scabbers's disappearance;


Ron DOES admit his mistake in GoF concerning the Ron-Harry feud (GoF 
Ch20) He doesn't grovel and snivel that he is sorry but the apology is 
there. 
"Harry," [Ron] said, very seriously, "whoever put your name in the 
goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!"

As for the Crookshanks eats Scabbers incident in PoA, this is Harry's 
observation from Ch 13. "Personally, Harry was sure that Crookshanks 
had eaten Scabbers, and when he tried to point it out to Hermione that 
the evidence all pointed that way, she lost her temper with Harry 
too." Earlier in Ch 9, we read the following: 
***
As Harry opened the door, something brushed against his leg. He bent 
down just in time to frab Crookshanks by the end of his bushy tail and 
drag him outside.
"You know, I reckon Ron was right about you, "Harry told Crookshanks 
suspiciously. "There are plenty of mice around this place--go and 
chase them."
***
Crookshanks searching out  Scabbers at every opportunity yet there are 
"plenty of mice". (In light of  Scabber's physical state: thin and 
losing fur, I doubt Scabbers would be as tasty as a healthy mouse.)  
Hermione attributes this to normal cat behavior and to Ron's 
over-reaction. She ignores Ron's assertions that Crookshanks is after 
Scabbers and "loses her temper" with Harry when he gives her the 
evidence. Crookshanks WAS after Scabbers as Ron thought. Again, 
Scabbers may have turned out to be a homicidal maniac, but it doesn't 
negate the fact that Crookshanks was after him, regardless of the 
reason and it doesn't negate the fact that Ron and Harry recognized 
that Crookshank's stalking of Scabbers, when Hermione ignored it or 
rationalized it as "normal behavior". Which leads me to this, if you 
had a friend with a pet rat, would you allow your cat to go near it 
knowing that cats are the natural predators of rodents? Makes me 
question Hermione's respect of Ron and his possessions. 

In PoA, Ron does "apologize" to Crookshanks and Hermione, indirectly. 
On the Hogwarts Express, he asks Crookshanks if the little owl really 
is a little owl. By his actions, Ron acknowledges his trust in 
Crookshanks' judgement. 

As for jealousy of Harry, I'm hard pressed to find anything in the 
books to indicate he is jealous of HARRY, however, I can find 
instances of an underlying jealousy of Hermione. In PS/SS, Ron lets 
himself be knocked unconscious by a Chess piece in order for Harry and 
Hermione to proceed. CoS, Ron follows Harry and the spiders into the 
Forbidden Forest. PoA, Ron with a broken leg tells Sirius that he 
(Sirius) would have to kill him and Hermione first before he can get 
to Harry. Those aren't the actions of a jealous person. Malfoy's 
comments about Harry can be interpreted as "jealous" (with a handful 
of hate and scorn). 

Ron doesn't like feeling left out. He is from a large family, where he 
shares parental attention with 6 other siblings. In essence, he's used 
to sharing. When Harry's name pops out of the Goblet, Ron is 
surprized. But think about it, Harry has included Ron in all of his 
escapades. Why should Harry leave him out now? Ron's been a loyal 
friend. Ron's been supportive of Harry. Ron has risked his life for 
Harry. Yet, he thinks his best friend has left him out of the loop. 
I've seen real-life relationships disintegrate for similar 
reasons--lack of communication, misunderstanding and foolish pride. 
But Hermione interprets this as "jealousy" of Harry's fame??? Hermione 
has more potential to be jealous of Harry's fame than Ron. Her near 
pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a cry for 
attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of 
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder): I think it's in PS/SS where Ron can't 
understand why Hermione wants to begin studying 4 weeks before final 
exams when she already knows the material. Too bad we never get a 
glimpse of her mirror of Erised. But her studying and academic success 
is not met with overt admiration of her peers. She is considered a 
'bossy know it all' but her classmates and at least one teacher, 
Snape. On the other hand Harry has celebrity status in the wizarding 
community; he is a hero to and greatly admired by some. Enough about 
Hermione's hang-ups, this is a Ron message!  

One thing that has been overlooked is Ron's ability to confront his 
fear. Recall, Ron has an intense fear of spiders. He was able to 
confront his spider-boggart and remove it's legs. He was able to face 
up to Aragog and his family. So far we have seen Harry and Ron 
confront and overcome their fears. The one time we see Hermione 
confronting her fear (Professor McGonagall informing telling Hermione 
she has failed, she runs away screaming.

I am a reformed Hermione and I sort of envy Ron's relaxed approach to 
school (he's not worried about failing, he spends his vacations 'on 
vacation' and doesn't write papers during them). The only way I think 
I can objectively dissect and analyse the characters is to examine 
their actions within the context of the chapter(s) as they take place. 
I think using the final outcome to interpret their actions in earlier 
chapters (or in earlier books) gives a somewhat tainted analysis of 
their actions 'in situ'.   

Demelza





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 17:11:19 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:11:19 -0000
Subject: Les Miz (was Authority and rule-breaking)
In-Reply-To: <9avdi2+d542@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avern+b1c5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16274

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> > 
> > Go get the book, Catherine, and read the chapter that ends with 
> > Javert?s death (I only read the french version, so I don?t know 
the 
> > English title, sorry). That chapter was a revelation to me, and I 
> > think it may be to all people working in a legal profession. 
> > 
> > 
> Yes, I do need to go back to it - I did say it was a number of 
years 
> ago.  But I still stand by my comparative comments on black/white 
> issues, ordered worlds etc.
> (By the way, I don't know if you knew, but I'm training to be a 
> lawyer at the moment!)


Catherine - I didn't realize it (and you're a few weeks too late for 
questions during the draft/beta of the A Sirius Affair trial scenes, 
darnit!) but it's always good to see more lawyers here, as I'm sure 
Penny would agree :)

For me, Javert, in both the musical and the book, is the reason I 
have never had any interest in being a prosecutor. I cannot see the 
world in pure rules and clear black and white, and I have no sympathy 
with those who always do. 

Lea wrote:
> Javert commits suicide because he has failed, not because he 
realised 
> he was wrong. He found himself trapped between two impossible 
crimes: 
> To let a convicted criminal escape and to arrest him. This 
situation 
> didn?t fit anywhere in his view of the world, and he just couldn?t 
> cope with it. Javert?s death is not a redemption, it?s a 
resignation.
Absolutely - it's the perfect demonstration of the mental state of 
the individual who believes he has no possible choice. He actually 
does have choices,  but selecting any of them would force himself to 
reconsider his ideals and perspectives, and even the act of 
reconsideration would be tantemount to a violation of such ideals and 
perspectives, and therefore, the weak, cowardly decision is made to 
not engage in such self-examination. 
Snape, on the other hand, I believe, has reconsidered his 
perspecitves, and probably his ideals (he may've been a spy on the 
DE's the whole time and never agreed with their philosophy, but I do 
doubt that). And in so doing, he has made brave decisions that are 
fully opposite to the idea of cowardice. In a way, he's more like 
Valjean in one fundamental way - a segment of his existance is 
grounded in the protection of other people - in Book 1, it's Harry. 
After book 4, is it the whole entire "Old Crowd?"

On a related note, interspersed with my Homage fanfic, where I place 
the HP characters into Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice (even those of 
you who don't read fanfic might want to give it a whirl - it's closer 
to a FILK than a story - I swear!) I've *tried* to place the HP 
characters into Les Miz - both the book and the musical - and I 
cannot get it to work. I just lose it when it comes to matching the 
characters up, mostly because I hate Cosette in at least 18 different 
ways, and therefore cannot put Hermione into that role, no matter 
which boy I have as Marius (but I do *love* draco as marius - book 
Marius, especially!) and given that I don't want Hermi dead, I can't 
put her into the Eponine role either. The Dursleys do work as the 
Thernardiers, and I would love to see a Vernon-FILK to Master of the 
House, and Ron, believe it or not, keeps cropping up as my Enjolras, 
but that might be because I still see Little Waif Harry from Book 1 
as Gavroche ("we may look easy pickings, but we've got some bite!"). 




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 17:13:26 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:13:26 -0000
Subject: Changes in Vocabulary
In-Reply-To: <3AD32653.4DCB8D42@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9avevm+ls1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16275

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
[but before that someone else wrote:]
> > Though these books have become universally loved by adults and 
children I wonder a
> > bit if they would have achieved such success if JKR had not been
> > willing to bend a bit.  Would US children have enjoyed the books 
as
> > much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar
> > words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.
> >
> If they're struggling to read at age 9-12, the American education 
system
> is in far worse shape than I thought.  I'm not downplaying the slow
> learners or anything.  But, the vast majority of American children 
in
> the 9-12 age group (the "alleged" target audience) can read.  

Actually, loathe as I am to disagree with Penny (Please excuse me, 
Your Moderatorness), there was an article in yesterdays newspaper 
that the latest study shows that only one-third of American fourth-
graders (age 9-10) read at grade level, one-third have LESS than the 
most basic level of reading skills, and the other third is somewhere 
in between.  So, I think we can safely say that most 9 - 12 year olds 
probably dont read well enough to read the HP books, and it is 
actually only a small % that have read them.  After all, despite the 
millions and millions of HP books that have been sold, probably fewer 
people have read an HP book than have watched an episode of Survivor 
on TV.  Depressing, no?

So, I can sort of see Scholastics point of view, except that I think 
they are far more concerned with making the books marketable than 
making them understandable.  They probably thought American kids 
would be turned off by books that sounded excessively English, since 
some of the changes clearly have nothing to do with comprehension.  I 
mean, its one thing to change *jumper* to *sweater* but changing 
*mum* to *mom*?  


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From wings909 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 17:13:45 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:13:45 EDT
Subject: Ron playing Chess-Quidditch Captain (was Re: Ron Week Extended)
Message-ID: <ff.49db10f.2804994a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16276

In a message dated Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arabella at sugarquill.com writes:

As for chess, I know there are more references than this and I wish I 
had time to check through for all of them: "He liked it best when he 
was with Ron and Hermione and they were talking about other things, or 
else letting him sit in silence while they played chess." - GoF >>


I think my favorite quote in the book comes from GoF...where Hermione sits to watch a chess match "concluding with a spectacular checkmate involving two brave, reckless pawns and a very violent Bishop." --I just quoted this from memory.

Getting back to Ron as Quidditch Captain, I think it is very likely.  Strategy at chess would definately work out on the Quidditch Pitch, and like others have mentioned, Ron would definately make a crackin' good Keeper! : )

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 17:29:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:29:18 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avdht+3p10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avfte+l0g2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16277

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious little 
> about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, 
and 
> no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I do 
> feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with oranges, 
so 
> to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR 
books 
> to the contrary.

There are citations to the books. They are veiled and subtle, but 
there are places in the books that have been published to date which 
would support JKR if she does decide to have a manner of redemption 
for Draco in future books. 

Doing this without the books (and without Cassie to call on for 
assistance) - but here goes:
1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment on 
the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if Crookshanks 
has *no* kneazle blood, this is clearly irrelevant, but if the car is 
part kneazle and therefore in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 
2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way 
of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by canon 
evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things that 
are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to Muggle-borns, 
he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR could have just as 
easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said it, didn't I?" - but she 
chose the word "warned..." Could that be foreshadowing? It's 
impossible to know now....but it's impossible to know *for sure* 
about almost anything in books 5, 6 and 7.
4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying to 
curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and the 
Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he would 
support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the interest of 
getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's side, but it is 
equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as being completely 
evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not unredeemable, then 
it is possible that redemption and a turning away from Lucius and the 
Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the future. 




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 17:32:36 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:32:36 -0000
Subject: DRACO was Re: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avdht+3p10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avg3k+jbks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16278

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > BTW, I also don't agree with any of the "nice" interpretations 
of  
> > Draco. He has lied, cheated, bullied, made trouble, used people 
and 
> > told tales. He is a horrible boy. He is so horrible (and he's 
horrid 
> > too!) that he seems almost to be an embodiment of the worst and 
most 
> > extreme qualities of the Slytherin spirit.
> > 
> > Naama
> 
> I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious little 
> about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, 
and 
> no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I do 
> feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with oranges, 
so 
> to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR 
books 
> to the contrary.
> 
> Hagridd

I also want to add my voice to this chorus.  As someone (Heidi?) has 
pointed out, Draco is a Nasty Little Nazi.  It is possible that he is 
redeemable, but personally I doubt it.  Note that JKR, when asked 
about the rumor that Draco and Harry would band together to fight 
Voldy in a later book, said something like *Where do you people get 
these ideas?!*

I dont get the whole fanfic version, the new, improved, sexy, leather 
pants Draco.  But I dont read fanfic so I cant really make an 
educated criticism.  But, for the record, I HATE DRACO MALFOY.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 17:38:57 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:38:57 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: More Questions
In-Reply-To: <9avdvr+2mjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avgfh+ciii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16279

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" <muggle-reader at a...> wrote:
> Hermione 
> has more potential to be jealous of Harry's fame than Ron. Her near 
> pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a cry for 
> attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of 
> Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder): I think it's in PS/SS where Ron 
can't 
> understand why Hermione wants to begin studying 4 weeks before 
final 
> exams when she already knows the material. Too bad we never get a 
> glimpse of her mirror of Erised. But her studying and academic 
success 
> is not met with overt admiration of her peers. She is considered a 
> 'bossy know it all' but her classmates and at least one teacher, 
> Snape. On the other hand Harry has celebrity status in the 
wizarding 
> community; he is a hero to and greatly admired by some. 

Even though I did some work on cases involving OCD when I was in law 
school, to refresh my recollection to counter your claim about 
Hermione's studying being a sympton of OCD, I did a little research 
on Webmd.com - check out 
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.51712 for more - OCD is a 
likely biological-based neurological problem that can manifest at any 
age. The following between the < and > is from the WEBMD site:

<Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), one of the anxiety disorders, 
is a potentially disabling condition that can persist throughout a 
person's life. The individual who suffers from OCD becomes trapped in 
a pattern of repetitive thoughts and behaviors that are senseless and 
distressing but extremely difficult to overcome. OCD occurs in a 
spectrum from mild to severe, but if severe and left untreated, can 
destroy a person's capacity to function at work, at school, or even 
in the home>
<Obsessions
These are unwanted ideas or impulses that repeatedly well up in the 
mind of the person with OCD. Persistent fears that harm may come to 
self or a loved one, an unreasonable concern with becoming 
contaminated, or an excessive need to do things correctly or 
perfectly, are common. Again and again, the individual experiences a 
disturbing thought, such as, "My hands may be contaminated -- I must 
wash them"; "I may have left the gas on"; or "I am going to injure my 
child." These thoughts are intrusive, unpleasant, and produce a high 
degree of anxiety.>

Compulsions
In response to their obsessions, most people with OCD resort to 
repetitive behaviors called compulsions. The most common of these are 
washing and checking. Other compulsive behaviors include counting 
(often while performing another compulsive action such as hand 
washing), repeating, hoarding, and endlessly rearranging objects in 
an effort to keep them in precise alignment with each other. Mental 
problems, such as mentally repeating phrases, listmaking, or checking 
are also common. 

Insight
Often, especially when they are not actually having an obsession, 
they can recognize that their obsessions and compulsions are 
unrealistic. 

Resistance
[O]ver the months or years, resistance may weaken, and when this 
happens, OCD may become so severe that time-consuming rituals take 
over the sufferers' lives, making it impossible for them to continue 
activities outside the home.

Shame and Secrecy
OCD sufferers often attempt to hide their disorder rather than seek 
help. Often they are successful in concealing their obsessive-
compulsive symptoms from friends and coworkers. 

Long-lasting Symptoms
OCD tends to last for years, even decades. >

While Hermione may have some level of performance anxiety, 
overstudying, or obsessive studying, is not an indication of OCD. As 
the site says, "People with OCD should not be confused with a much 
larger group of individuals who are sometimes called "compulsive" 
because they hold themselves to a high standard of performance and 
are perfectionistic and very organized in their work and even in 
recreational activities. This type of "compulsiveness" often serves a 
valuable purpose, contributing to a person's self-esteem and success 
on the job. In that respect, it differs from the life-wrecking 
obsessions and rituals of the person with OCD."





From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 17:44:21 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Javert/Snape parallels
In-Reply-To: <9avd0n+efb0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410174421.56252.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16280

--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> I think the life-saving-and-being-indebted-to-
> your-worst-enemy-parallel
> between 
> Javert and Snape is so obvious that it has lead us
> to parallel their 
> characters and cases entirely. We shouldnt do that.
> The parallel ends 
> here.

Hrm.  Well, I agree to a certain extent, but I do see
parallels in them stil.  I don't think Snape has
"gotten over" or worked through the issues raised by
his debt to James.  In many ways, he's simply shut off
his brain to that portion, until of course he was
confronted head on with Harry, who we've always heard
looks extraordinarily like James.  

True, Snape definitely handles this differently from
Javert, in that he makes an effort to repay the debt
(saving Harry from Quirrel) rather than avoidance
through suicide.  But I do see Snape as still having a
very difficult time struggling with his world view.

Oh, I just had an interesting thought.  Snape became a
Death Eater and then later turned back to the Light
<g> and began working as a sort of double-agent.  What
if his initial turn to working for Voldemort was as a
way to put his world-view back in order after James
screwed around with it?  

I...had another point here, but I've completely
forgotten it. <sigh> Ah well.  Will come up later if
it's important. <g>



Andrea II

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 17:50:32 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Les Miz (was Authority and rule-breaking)
In-Reply-To: <9avern+b1c5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410175032.97598.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16281

--- heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:
> On a related note, interspersed with my Homage
> fanfic, where I place 
> the HP characters into Jane Austen's Pride &
> Prejudice (even those of 
> you who don't read fanfic might want to give it a
> whirl - it's closer 
> to a FILK than a story - I swear!) I've *tried* to
> place the HP 
> characters into Les Miz - both the book and the
> musical - and I 
> cannot get it to work. I just lose it when it comes
> to matching the 
> characters up, mostly because I hate Cosette in at
> least 18 different 
> ways, and therefore cannot put Hermione into that
> role, no matter 
> which boy I have as Marius (but I do *love* draco as
> marius - book 
> Marius, especially!) and given that I don't want
> Hermi dead, I can't 
> put her into the Eponine role either. The Dursleys
> do work as the 
> Thernardiers, and I would love to see a Vernon-FILK
> to Master of the 
> House, and Ron, believe it or not, keeps cropping up
> as my Enjolras, 
> but that might be because I still see Little Waif
> Harry from Book 1 
> as Gavroche ("we may look easy pickings, but we've
> got some bite!"). 

I completely understand your 18 different reasons to
hate Cosette (and could probably add a few!), but
might I suggest <eg> Harry as Cosette?  James Potter
works as Valjean in some respects.  Draco as Eponine,
and I don't think that there's a character yet who
suits Marius. (*Not* Hermione!)  I could actually see
Hermione as a good Enjorlas...not sure where I'd put
Ron.  Dumbledore makes a great Bishop, though.


Andrea II
(Also a lawyer-in-training - yay Catherine! <g>)


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 17:50:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:50:41 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avfte+l0g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avh5h+44ae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16282

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious 
little 
> > about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, 
> and 
> > no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> > contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I 
do 
> > feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with 
oranges, 
> so 
> > to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR 
> books 
> > to the contrary.
Heidi wrote:
> There are citations to the books. They are veiled and subtle, but 
> there are places in the books that have been published to date 
which 
> would support JKR if she does decide to have a manner of redemption 
> for Draco in future books. 
> 

> 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way 
> of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by 
canon 
> evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 

<bg> I think we're going to have to agree to differ on that one.

> 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying 
to 
> curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and 
the 
> Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he would 
> support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the interest 
of 
> getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's side, but it is 
> equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as being completely 
> evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not unredeemable, 
then 
> it is possible that redemption and a turning away from Lucius and 
the 
> Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the future.

I see this two ways.  One, that Snape truly believed that Lucius 
Malfoy wasn't a DE, and was just favouring Draco because he is in 
Slytherin.  Entirely plausible by the sudden start (or whatever) he 
gives when Harry lists Malfoy as among those who went back to 
Voldemort.
Another alternative, depending on some far-sightedness of Snape, and 
perhaps Dumbledore, is that Snape knew that at some point he would be 
returning to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore, and wanted the 
Malfoys to believe that he was still on the "dark side" by still 
favouring the Slytherins - every little detail helps in a situation 
like this.
Finally, does Snape trust Malfoy?  He certainly favours him, but this 
seem to me to be more as a way of disfavouring the Gryffindors and 
making them suffer.  Therefore, not purely for Malfoy's benefit.

Catherine
Btw: I agree with you. I couldn't be a prosecutor either.




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 10 18:05:54 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:05:54 -0400
Subject: reasons for fanfic
References: <20010410152437.24012.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> <3AD33684.3197257C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003701c0c1e8$e378eba0$0867d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16283


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>


> Magda Grantwich wrote:
>
> > Several times I have read that a particular character is
> > such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as detailed
> > in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section of
> > PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction sit in
> > terms of discussion of the books?
> >
> > I haven't read anything but the books.  I'm prepared to make
> > predictions of future actions or deduce past actions (like Snape's
> > background or Draco's home life) but based on the "canon" as it's been
> > called.

Well isn't this the basis of most good fanfic?  It's about predicting future
actions and/or deducing past actions in a narrative setting.  Rather than
doing a detailed character summary or discussing the charactrer as a post to
the list, some of us write fanfic.  Its a way to illustrate in a creative
way our "take" on the characters and settings.  Instead of saying...in this
circumstance I think Ron would do XYZ.  You create that circumstance in the
story and show how you think he would resolve it.


> This is the main reason why I won't read fanfiction. Judging from the
> quality of the posters who say they write it, some of it's fantastic,
> but I know me and I will inevitably "fuzz" the line between the canon
> characters and their fic cousins. I have a lot of fun speculating on the
> canon, and I want my "take" on the flavor and "feel" and well, character
> of the characters to be strictly based on JKR, at least during the
> production of the seven books.
>

For me, writing fanfic is a way to further define my "take" on the
characters.  Most fanfic writers will tell you that their take on a
character is canon based, but it still may differ from your take on that
same character, based on the same canon.  Granted JKR might further refine
some character into someone completely different by Books 5,6, and 7...but
it does give us something to do and illustrates more deeply different takes
on the characters.

You can discuss character traits ''til the cows come home, but to read those
traits in the context of a story is far more enlightening and interesting,
IMHO.

carole





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 18:13:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avfte+l0g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010410181347.47800.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16284

> 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment
> on the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if
> Crookshanks...is...in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
> detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
> reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 

Or it could mean that he's so obvious and open about it that it
hardly counts as something that needs detecting.


> 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way
> of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by
> canon evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 

I can buy this.  We should perhaps be careful not to lump Harry, Ron
and Hermione into one group regarding Draco.  It's entirely possible
that Draco reluctantly (perhaps unconsciously at this point) likes
Hermione and is trying to impress her Draco-style.  Which
unfortunately means being his own less-than-wonderful self to get her
attention and then lashing out hurtfully when it doesn't work.  In
Draco's universe, a girl should be thrilled to be singled out for
attention.  Pansy Parkinson gets it; Hermione doesn't.

> 3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things
> that are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to
> Muggle-borns, he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR 
> could have just as easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said it,

> didn't I?" - but she chose the word "warned..." Could that be 
> foreshadowing? 

Since the context of the phrase is clearly meant to be menacing to H,
H & R, I don't think a milder interpretation is appropriate. 
Especially with Crabbe & Goyle present.


> 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying
> to curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and
> the Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he 
> would support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the 
> interest of getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's 
> side, but it is equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as 
> being completely evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not

> unredeemable, then it is possible that redemption and a turning 
> away from Lucius and the  Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the 
> future. 

JKR mentions a few times that Draco isn't dumb enough to pull
something when a teacher's around to see him.  (His assault on Harry
that preceded the Great Ferret Incident was atypical in this regard
but I think we can put it down to emotional upheaval because Harry
had just dissed his mother.)  He never lets Snape see what he's
doing: the "Potter Stinks" badges appear when Snape's back is turned
and during the ricochet cursing incident he accuses Harry of
attacking him with no mention of attacking Harry back.  Snape did not
see the attack; he only saw the consequences.  

I don't redemption is on Snape's mind regarding Draco: he's part of
Snape's house (which matters a lot to Snape), he's anti-Potter
(ditto) and he's probably a little suck in private (an assumption, I
know but I think a valid one.)

And another prediction: Snape never had a crush on Lily Evans Potter;
rather, he had the adolescent burn for Narcissa Malfoy and goes easy
on her kid as a result.


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From tmayor at mediaone.net  Tue Apr 10 18:26:56 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:26:56 -0000
Subject: Ron's money problems (was Re: Ron Week: More Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9avdf5+3ba4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avj9g+liun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16285

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., arabella at s... wrote:
> The material possessions issue is a little different; it cuts very  
> deeply into Ron.  He makes comment after comment about his poverty  
> and other people's comparative ease.  He's extremely unhappy about
> his 
> financial situation.  But I think it shows a strength, rather than 
a  
> weakness, that he is willing to admit this in such a forthright  
> manner ("I hate being poor.")  In my opinion, that's a damn hard
> thing 
> to say, especially in front of your best friend who has money and 
the 
> girl you've got a crush on (that's IMO). 

I agree with everyone who's said Ron's become more rigid as the books 
go on, but I think part of this has to do with his poverty. At 11, 
you may be a little bothered by your used stuff, but by 14, you care 
very much. 

The scene in GoF with his dress robes is played for laughs, but it's 
heartwrenching for a teenager to be wearing loser clothes, and 
especially to a big event like the Yule Ball. Yes, he was a jerk at 
the Ball, but why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't look 
to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes 
lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she 
looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.

And how must Quidditch-loving Ron feel to have his already famous 
best friend zooming around on the best broomstick ever made while 
he's got to ride something that gets passed by butterflies? 

Yes, Ron needs to get over those feelings of jealousy and inadequacy, 
but he won't really be able to do that until he gets out of Hogwarts, 
gets a job and can start a life of his own. After all, Bill and 
Charlie seem to be doing just fine (Bill's got enough swag to splurge 
on a pair of dragon boots, after all), but look how the twins behave 
in GoF. The middle teens are the times when you feel the poverty the 
most and can do the least about it, so my heart goes out to Ron. I 
think we should cut him a little slack.

[And as an aside--why *are* the Weasleys still so broke? By GoF, 
they've got three of the kids working and two of them out of the 
house. I wonder if the parting of the ways will help or hurt Arthur. 
If he gets booted out of his ministry job for insubordination or some 
such, there'll be big problems at home.]

~Rosmerta




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue Apr 10 18:31:40 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:31:40 -0000
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
In-Reply-To: <3AD318A5.C0785F41@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9avjic+i00a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16286

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I know we're talking about Ron this week, but I'd had this message 
about
> Percy in my inbox for awhile, meaning to reply when I had more time.
> So, here goes:
> 
> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the
> > fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been 
looking
> > pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy"
> > Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) <snip>
> > Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 17, that Ginny was
> > beginning to think Percy suspected she was involved with the 
Chamber
> > ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm pale and I'm not myself. I
> > think he suspects me
"). That, in itself, is a credible reason for
> > Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16.
> 
> Interesting.  I took the above incidents to mean that Percy was more
> perceptive than the other Weasley boys and had picked up on her
> distress.  None of the others seem to notice there's anything amiss 
with
> her.  But, Percy is perceptive enough to make her take some 
medicinal
> potion (a protective older brother rather than a bully in my mind). 
 He
> also apparently notices and comments more than once that she is 
pale,
> doesn't look well & doesn't seem herself.  How can this be anything
> other than concern for her?  She may be interpreting his concern
> strangely, because she's worried that she will lose his respect/love 
if
> he finds out the "truth" about what's ailing her.  But, he clearly
> demonstrates concern for her.  I don't think she's afraid of Percy 
so
> much as she's afraid of him losing respect for her.  That's really 
what
> I was getting at when I said that she "hero-worships" him.  That 
wasn't
> the right choice of words.  But, what I mean is that Ginny does seem 
to
> value his good opinion of her.
> 

CoS Ch 9, Ron comforts Ginny but also informs Harry that Ginny is 
upset about Mrs. Norris' attack. Ron tells Harry that Ginny likes cats 
and assumes that is why she is overly upset. So Ron DOES recognize 
that Ginny is upset. His solution is words of comfort, whereas, 
Percy's solution is a chemical concoction. It could be how each 
brother interprets Ginny. Ron recognizes her emotional distress and 
Percy recognizes her physical distress.

> > So let's examine what the books contain about Percy and his 
attitudes
> > toward his family.
> > <snip>
> > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron 
sit
> > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a 
"time
> > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
Throughout
> > the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and 
ready
> > to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de 
facto
> > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory
> > while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being
> > terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.
> 
> > Milz added: As
> > the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers 
instead of
> > locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older kids 
in
> > a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the younger
> > kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of 
shunned
> > his duty, so to speak.
> >
> 
> Someone else commented on this, but it bears repeating.  Everyone
> handles crisis differently.  Percy is just the type to need solitary
> introspective time at that point, and I don't think it's fair to be
> judgmental about him because of the way he needs/chooses to handle
> stress & grief.  It's clear that he's very different from the twins 
and
> Ron as far as his personality goes.  I don't know that it's at all 
fair
> to suggest that he has a "duty" to be outwardly & publicly 
comforting to
> his siblings just because he's "de facto" the eldest Weasley.  He's 
got
> a right to handle grief & shock in the way that most suits his own
> personality.  IMO.
> 

I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, that 
passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been 
supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of 
familial support. 

> > (GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming 
with
> > Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron 
up.
> > Percy is described as "pale".
> 
> He looked "white and somehow younger than usual."  You left out the 
last
> bit.  He also waded out to meet them.  He abandoned the dignity of 
being
> a judge and took off out into the lake.  I'm amazed that anyone 
could
> put a negative spin on Percy for this particular scene.  What it 
says to
> me is: in the face of true physical danger to a family member, Percy
> will abandon rules, authority & his position.
> 
> > A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> > clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a 
negative
> > connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the clutches 
of
> > a madman.
> 
> I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that 
shows
> strong emotional connection.
> 
> > Percy's actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have been
> > really be concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than the 
one
> > hour. On
> > the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside
> > herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron 
and
> > Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim with 
her
> > to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed
> > anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that
> > Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's 
Ministry
> > Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this too.
> > Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action is 
not
> > objectively clear-cut.
> 
> Oh, c'mon!  Sure, Percy as a judge objectively knew the rules, but 
he
> was so concerned about Ron's well-being that he completely forgot 
the
> "rules" for once & acted completely on his emotions.  IMO anyway.  I
> just see very little room for argument that Percy waded into the 
lake &
> clutched at Ron, looking "younger than usual," as a means of drawing
> attention to himself & away from Ron and Harry!  Sorry .... but I 
can't
> see that there's much basis to this argument.  If he'd wanted to 
assume
> his usual stance of "authority figure," he'd have simply waited at 
the
> water's edge & launched into a lecture the second Ron touched land.

My interpretations of Percy's action here is based upon Percy's prior 
actions. That's why I find this passage difficult to interpret 
difinitively. As I stated, on the one hand Percy could be acting out 
of true brotherly concern. On the other hand, Percy could be acting 
out of brotherly concern with a prospect of personal gain. From what 
we have seen of Percy in the books and chapters leading up to this 
incident, he tends to take sides with others when his family is in a 
fix, for example solely blaming Arthur for the post-World cup Ministry 
events. As I wrote earlier, even Molly thought that was unfounded and 
chastized him for that comment. Again, it's a passage that I can see 
interpreted in different ways.

> 
> > I said: >However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not Ron's.
> >
> > Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's.
> > <snip> In spite of Trelawney's track record, Hermione still 
considered
> > her a "fraud".
> 
> JKR does seem to be poking fun at Trelawney though, and most of her
> "correct" perdictions are easily explained away by logic or
> coincidence.  Dumbledore himself attributes her with only 2 correct
> predictions; you've given her a far greater track record.  <g>
>

Trelawny's predictions are partially correct. IIRC, she advise Parvati 
to beware of a red-haired man, when it was Padma who was on the date 
from hell with Ron. Hermione, however, does not allow herself to even 
consider Trelawney can be correct with the Voldemort prediction. She's 
too concrete.

> > Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh 
treatment
> > of Winky.
> 
> Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the 
measure
> of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius thinks
> Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> character.
> 

Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to co-workers. 
Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. Perhaps this is due 
to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, there is no 
possibility that he could turn on his family. Nothing in this world is 
100%, with any luck Hermione will realize.

> > Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems to have respected Winky 
enough
> > to consider her opinions. Dobby was terrified of Malfoy. Winky
> > retained a fondness for the Crouches: that should have raised a 
red
> > flag.
> 
> Dobby is the exception rather than the rule.  He's consistently 
painted
> as the "odd bird" amongst house-elves.  Winky is illustrating the
> typical house elf attitude of complete & total subservience, even in 
the
> face of disgrace & poor treatment.  I don't think Crouch considered 
her
> opinions as much as he had some guilt working for his neglect of his 
son
> during the formative years.
>
 
I think the House-elves are good examples of "one man's hell is 
another man's heaven". Winky is happy with her servitude. Dobby isn't. 
Who is right and who is wrong depends upon the values and opinions of 
the interpreter. They also exemplify that the only time one can change 
is if one's truly desires to change.

If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, why 
should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are 
incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's portrayal, 
Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's pleadings 
should not have made difference at all.   

> > Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get Scabbers, 
as
> > Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get
> > Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal traitor, 
but
> > it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about
> > Crookshank.
> 
> Ron was wrong there too.  :--)

Ch 9 PoA, 
***
As Harry opened the door, something brushed against his leg. He bent 
down just in time to grab Crooskshanks by the end of his bushy tail 
and drag him outside.
"You, know, I reckon Ron was right about you, " Harry told Crookshanks 
suspiciously. "There are plenty of mice around this place--go chase 
them."
***
In short, Harry thought Crookshanks was after Scabbers.
By this time in the book, Scabbers was thin and sickly. Why a cat 
would want to eat a sickly rat instead of a nice healthy, fat one is 
beyond logic. Crookshanks WAS after Scabbers, maybe not to kill him, 
but he definitely did target Scabbers. Hermione chalked it up to 
normal cat behavior and , again, refused to entertain the possibility 
of something else at play.   

Actually, they were all amazed that Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew. 
Initially, Hermione couldn't believe that Sirius was an animagus 
because he wasn't registered. 

> > Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has
> > always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of Harry.
> > Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron
> > thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, 
thinks
> > Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are 
lies.
> 
> But, Ron's reactions are motivated by jealousy.  Harry ends up with
> everything.  I always thought Ron was using the "you're lying to me"
> business as a cover-up for "You're years below the age-line but 
still
> you get to compete for that money & glory."
>

I wrote this in the Ron Week Questions message, but I'm hard-pressed 
to find anything in the books and the chapters of GoF preceding the 
feud that indicates Ron is jealous of Harry. 
 
> > Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission in
> > Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that
> > Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very
> > seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon 
they're
> > trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.
> 
> Amy Z said it far better than I did, but yes, Ron's jealousy is the
> underlying reason for the feud.  Ron is jealous of Harry and that
> jealousy turns into stubborn pride.  He refuses to admit that Harry 
was
> telling the truth when he said he didn't put his own name in the
> Goblet.  He refuses to admit that Harry might be in danger because
> someone else put his name in the Goblet instead.  He's so eaten up 
with
> jealousy over the potential winnings & glory that he can't even see 
how
> shocked/stunned/scared Harry is when his name comes out of the 
Goblet.
> Hermione saw this; how is it that Ron didn't?  Jealousy.  I think he
> can't admit the truth because he'd have to put his jealousy aside to 
do
> so.
> 

GoF, Ch 20. 
***
"Harry," [Ron] said, very seriously, "whoever put your name in the 
goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!"
***

This certainly isn't a declaration of "I'm so sorry Harry", but the 
implication is there. 

> > The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is that
> > Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She judges 
a
> > person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any 
"bad"
> > actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). Conversely 
she
> > judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" 
from
> > that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the 
"gray
> > areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. IMO, 
this
> > quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging 
character.
> 
> Ron certainly employs black/white logic when thinking about Snape
> though, doesn't he?  Hermione, OTOH, is clearly capable of seeing
> Snape's gray areas.
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get
> > Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil of 
her
> > own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  
She
> > doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's because 
he's
> > a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's 
not as
> > blind as you're making her out to be.
> >
> Perfect!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  <g>
> 
> Penny
> (card-carrying member of Percy Fans Unite!)

Snape---well, it's too early to be certain of Snape. I want to reserve 
any opinions about him until after I've read the next books.

About "normal cat behavior", Hermione owned a cat. Ron owned a rat. 
"Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior dictates 
that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things. 
Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat to 
be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the 
cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard Hermione 
has for Ron and his possessions. 

Demelza 




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 10 18:26:07 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:26:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DRACO 
References: <9avg3k+jbks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004901c0c1eb$b74fa7a0$0867d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16287


----- Original Message -----
From: <joym999 at aol.com>



> I also want to add my voice to this chorus.  As someone (Heidi?) has
> pointed out, Draco is a Nasty Little Nazi.  It is possible that he is
> redeemable, but personally I doubt it.  Note that JKR, when asked
> about the rumor that Draco and Harry would band together to fight
> Voldy in a later book, said something like *Where do you people get
> these ideas?!*
>
> I dont get the whole fanfic version, the new, improved, sexy, leather
> pants Draco.  But I dont read fanfic so I cant really make an
> educated criticism.  But, for the record, I HATE DRACO MALFOY.
>

You know I felt the exact same way in September.  I read all sorts of
fanfic, but if they had Draco Malfoy as a main character in the summary, I'd
avoid it with a ten foot pole.  Then came Draco Dormiens.  You'd be
surprised at how a well told story can give you a different take on a
character and still have it feel like canon.  Its so hard to convey one's
impression of a character outside a narrative context.  I can explain my
take on Sirius for pages and pages, but I can paint a much more detailed
impression of his character through a fanfic than in a couple of pages
descriptive summary.

I still hold that my impression of Sirius is canon based...it is my opinion
though and not everyone is going to agree with it, just as I don't
necessarily agree with someone's opinion on Ginny or Hermione for that
matter.  But fanfic helps explore the different conceptualizations of canon
characters so you can see different side of characters as they exist in
others heads.

But by reading fanfic you are seeing other's views on canon.  While that may
taint your view of canon characters, it might also open up an avenue to see
the potential of what JKR might do.

I suppose responses to this should be on the OT-chatter list.

carole






From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 18:52:11 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:52:11 -0000
Subject: Can We Get Rid of Announcements?
Message-ID: <9avkor+4frp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16288

Hello, all.  I was stirring up a potion this morning when my cauldron 
reminded me (yes, it talks) that we have not been stirring up much in 
the way of trouble lately.  So, here goes:

Do we REALLY need the HP4GUPS-Announcements group?  After all, it 
only has 68 messages on it, over the course of a month or two.  That 
is a mere drop in the bucket, in terms of the traffic this group 
gets.  I would rather skip over posts I am not interested in than 
have to check so many different HP groups.  So, whaddya think, 
folks?  Should we demand that our leaders repeal the Send 
Announcements To Another List Law of 2001?  I say Dump the 
Announcements List!!!!!! Members, unite, and demand your rights to 
fewer HP4GUps lists!!!!


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 19:09:42 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:09:42 -0000
Subject: Ron Week : More Questions
Message-ID: <9avlpm+1c7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16289

Hello everyone!

I have read a number of posts regarding Ron and his preconceived 
prejudices. I am a firm believer in 'Ron is the readers guide to the 
inside workings of the wizarding world' :)

One preconceived prejudice we see in the books is in regards to 
werewolves. When I read PoA, I did not find Ron to show MORE 
prejudice against werewolves than Harry and Hermione. Hermione knew 
the negative connotation against werewolves. 'I didn't tell anyone!' 
Hermione shrieked. 'I've been covering up for you-' and her dramatic 
announcement of 'he's a werewolf!' help support this I believe. Ron 
was more vocal in showing his negative preconception towards 
werewolves with his 'Get away from me, werewolf!. But he was just as 
willing to listen to Lupin's explantation as Harry or Hermione. 
During Lupin's explanation, 'Lupin moved closer to Ron. He seemed to 
be holding his breath as he gazed intently at Scabbers' (pg. 255 UK 
ed.) Ron did not once again yell 'get away from me, werewolf', as he 
should of done if he stubbornly held on to his preconceived 
prejudices. In fact, by the time that Lupin and Sirius had convinced 
the Trio of Sirius' innocence, Ron VOLUNTEERED to be shackled to 
Lupin and Pettigrew! That IMO shows that Ron does have prejudices 
(hatred of werewolves is a very common prejudice found in the wizard 
and Muggle worlds ;) but he is open to shedding that particular 
prejudice pretty quickly :)

The other preconceived prejudice that has been recently mentioned is 
the enslavement of house-elves. As reprehensible as enslavement is, 
Ron is not the only person in the wizarding world who doesn't rise 
above it. From every wizard who owns a house-elve to Dumbledore (for 
allowing house-elves in Hogwarts) to all the people who not only did 
not join S.P.E.W but openly scoffed at it. Harry may not have been 
aware of the prejudice surrounding house-elves and yes he did free 
Dobby (one among many I might add) but once he too became aware of 
the situation (courtesy of Hermione) he did squat to eleviate it (if 
you don't agree, I would love to see the canon passage that shows 
Harry showing active involvement in freeing house-elves, aside from 
Dobby :)) As my fellow Sugar-Quiller Arabella (hi Arabella, loved 
your post!) mentioned, by the end of GoF, the house-elve issue had 
been pushed to the back burner by even Hermione. So to show up Ron 
as 'not rising above' such prejucides once again sells Ron short (you 
have to admitt, he is the tallest of the Trio ;) and IMO is not 
supported in canon.

The third preconceived prejudice that has been mentioned in 
conjunction with Ron is the hatred/fear of giants and the fact that 
Hagrid is a half-giant.

Arabella wrote:
<Also, Ron needs very little prompting to surmount his struggle with 
his feelings about Hagrid being half-giant ("'Who cares?' Harry 
said. 'There's nothing wrong with Hagrid!'  'I know there isn't, 
but...blimey, no wonder he keeps it quiet,' said Ron, shaking his 
head." And then, "'Well... no one who knows him will care, 'cos 
they'll know he's not dangerous." Granted, Ron goes on to say 
that "they're just vicious, giants," but as he points out, it's more 
in their natures than anything else, just as Hagrid points out that 
it wasn't in his own mother's nature to be maternal.)  
<From what I've read of Ron, he notices and admits the 
prejudices he feels, is able to discuss them, (yes, he even discusses 
the house-elves; he may be sticking to the wrong guns, but he's got  
guns in that argument - Winky *does* seem extremely miserable having  
been freed and though that's the natural struggle of the oppressed,  
it is still a difficult struggle for a 14 year old to understand),
and more often than not, he comes to learn and move forward in his  
thoughts.  After all, what kind of realistic character would Ron be  
if he didn't even have these thoughts to begin with, especially
having grown up in the wizarding community?>

As Arabella has shown, yes Ron is aware of the prejudice against 
giants as opposed to Harry and Hermione, but even knowing what he 
knows regarding the 'vicious nature' of giants he does NOT ever 
consider renouncing Hagrid just because he's half-giant. Harry and 
Hermione don't know any better. 'He's half-giant, so what?' was their 
response. But Ron DOES know better and yet he 'rises above' his 
prejudice and never considers Hagrid as anything other than his 
friend. 

I really don't see canon evidence supporting Ron clinging overly to 
preconceived prejudices that Harry and Hermione don't share because 
of their Muggle backgrounds. As I have elaborated in this post, Ron 
is not IMO too 'ready to judge people based on preconceived notions'. 
He definitely knows about giants, but as I and Arabella pointed out 
he certainly doesn't hold it against Hagrid that he's a half-giant. 
Same goes for house-elves and werewolves. I think that people are 
confusing Ron's quick temper with him making quick judgements :)

All this talk about Ron has raised my appreciation of the boy more 
<g>. Harry didn't hold it against Ron for starting the 'fight' in GoF 
so neither will I. Others have posted that yes Ron started the fight, 
but he also made sounds of trying to patch things up before the first 
task. JKR herself in the Dec. Times article said that the fight was 
prolonged due to Harry's not Ron's stubbornness, and JKR IS the HP 
God <vbg>(there was a post a while back about this article so I won't 
elaborate further). Ron WAS very mean to Hermione during the Yule 
Ball fight, but as other's have said , Hermione gives as good as she 
gets and I can excuse his behaviour as due to the green-eyed monster 
known as jealousy.

Some people have said that they don't think that Ron will 
intentionally betray Harry, but unintentionally he will. I of course 
don't think that Ron will EVER betray Harry, intentionally or 
otherwise. The only way Ron would intentionally betray Harry or turn 
to the Dark Side is if he valued money and power/fame/prestige above 
Harry. Despite his insecurites, there is absolutely no canonical 
evidence of this happening so far. Ron has had his insecurities since 
PS/SS and as many have pointed out, he did not hesitate to follow 
Harry in finding Quirrell/Voldie and in fact sacrificed 'himself' to 
let Harry and Hermione move forward on the giant chess set. He did 
not hesitate going to the Chamber of Secrets to try to save his 
sister along with Harry. In PoA, the whole standing on his broken-leg 
and 'You'll have to kill us too' speaks for itself. In GoF, neither 
Ron nor Hermione had a chance to really stand up with Harry against 
Voldie, but both did show their support. Ron after his initial (and 
very human) jealousy of Harry leading to the 'fight' came around 
pretty quick when he actually saw Harry in danger for his life in the 
First Task. When push has come to shove, despite his poverty and 
insecurity Ron has shown that he is truly Harry's Wheezy :) 

Ron betraying Harry UNintentionally IMO is not a possibility because 
I really cannot see any scenario in which this could occur. Most 
people don't doubt Ron's intellect (master chess player, seems to 
have about the same grades as Harry) so his being 'taken in' doesn't 
seem reasonable to me. IIRC, someone said something to the effect 
that Ron is quick to leap without looking and THAT might cause him to 
unintentionally betray Harry. IMO, Harry is the one who doesn't look 
before he leaps. It seems to me that it is Harry who is quickest to 
break rules (if he didn't we of course wouldn't be so entertained 
<vbg>) and not think before acting (going after Quirrell, going into 
the Forbidden Forest after the spiders in PoA...). Harry seems to me 
as likely to leap before looking as Ron and in not really think 
things through. Ron being the loyal friend that he is of course does 
not let Harry leap alone :) But I haven't heard anyone seriously 
consider HARRY as being a candidate for unintentional going over to 
the Dark side due to his impulsiveness. Besides, I think that JKR has 
already played the 'unintentional betrayal by best friend' scenario 
with Sirius (he did suggest Pettigrew be the Secret Keeper, and he 
does feel responsible for James and Lily's deaths). I don't see her 
having history repeat itself in that regard. She is much too 
imaginative for that :)

When all is said and done, I just want to point out that HARRY still 
considers Ron one of his best friends and he doesn't seem to share 
the dislike that many have for his Wheezy. He knows about Ron's 
insecurities but I didn't see him saying 'Well mate, it's been nice 
knowing you but I don't want to be friends anymore. I am afraid that 
your hot temper might unintentionally betray me now that Voldie's 
back. I hate you for being jealous of my money and fame and for 
acting like a prat towards Hermione at the Yule Ball. You are too 
quick to show your prejudices towards house-elves and giants and 
don't have the decency to rise above such things. I don't like your 
sarcastic humour, nor your red hair or freckles. I resent you for not 
believing in me about putting my name in the GoF, even though I have 
forgiven you for it. What did I ever see in you that made me think 
you were my best friend?'<vbg>

Firoza





From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 19:13:49 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:13:49 -0000
Subject: Chapter 37 Comments :  Draco Redeemable/Irredeemable? 
In-Reply-To: <20010410181347.47800.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9avm1d+26p1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16290

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment
> > on the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if
> > Crookshanks...is...in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
> > detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
> > reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 
> 
> Or it could mean that he's so obvious and open about it that it
> hardly counts as something that needs detecting.
> 

Actually, what I said in this regard earlier, is that Ron, Hermione 
and Harry _already know_ what a polecat Draco is, so it'd be 
redundant to warn Hermione (them).  Kneazles also are supposed to be 
possessed of uncanny intelligence! By their reactions, Crookshanks 
could tell they already distrusted Malfoy, so no need to raise an 
alarm.

Of course this too is irrelevant if he's just a cat. But I think he's 
part kneazle also because he knew how to turn off the Whomping Willow.

> 
> > 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> > World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the 
way
> > of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by
> > canon evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
> 
> I can buy this.  We should perhaps be careful not to lump Harry, Ron
> and Hermione into one group regarding Draco.  It's entirely possible
> that Draco reluctantly (perhaps unconsciously at this point) likes
> Hermione and is trying to impress her Draco-style.  Which
> unfortunately means being his own less-than-wonderful self to get 
her
> attention and then lashing out hurtfully when it doesn't work.  In
> Draco's universe, a girl should be thrilled to be singled out for
> attention.  Pansy Parkinson gets it; Hermione doesn't.

I am not sure I buy that.  Draco was saying that he pretty much 
_hoped_ that 'Granger' would be one of the Slytherin Heir's victims 
during CoS.  Wishing death on someone doesn't sound like ['I really 
like her but can't admit it even to myself'] to me. 

Besides: Imagine Draco coming home and his father finding out he's 
got a young man's fancy-type-thoughs of a MUDBLOOD.  Draco may be a 
sniveling, hateful, malicious, nasty, backbiting, deceitful, brown-
nosing, jealous and devious little creep, but he's not self-
destructive, and he's not stupid (though such can be said for his 
flunkies).  

There would have to have been a significant turnaround reason for 
Draco to have repented between CoS and GoF. I don't see much, since 
he was obnoxious enough as trying to get Hagrid sacked because of 
Malfoy non-wizard prejudice.

THOUGHT/QUERY: is it not common knowledge that since CoS and Harry's 
defeat of Riddle -- that Hagrid's name is cleared?  You'd think 
Dumbledore would make a polite point of getting this particular bit 
of info circulated.  I would say, at a guess, that it *is,* else the 
Governors and MoM would have had something to say about Dumbledore 
giving him a teaching job.

 
> > 3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things
> > that are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to
> > Muggle-borns, he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR 
> > could have just as easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said 
it,
> > didn't I?" - but she chose the word "warned..." Could that be 
> > foreshadowing? 

Possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it.  Malfoy's still acting all 
smug and superior.  To me, anyway, Draco's words had the tone of "I 
warned you, but you were too stupid to look out." 

Besides, if the warning was sincere, why be nasty about it? A warning 
given by someone untrustworthy is less likely to be believed. A 
warning given by someone who seems repentant is more likely to be 
believed.   

In fairness, though,  Draco could've been nasty on the way home 
because he was upset nobody trusted his warning for what it was.

> Since the context of the phrase is clearly meant to be menacing to 
H,
> H & R, I don't think a milder interpretation is appropriate. 
> Especially with Crabbe & Goyle present.
> 
> 
> > 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> > Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying
> > to curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore 
and
> > the Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he 
> > would support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the 
> > interest of getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's 
> > side, but it is equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as 
> > being completely evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's 
> > not unredeemable, then it is possible that redemption and a 
turning 
> > away from Lucius and the  Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the 
> > future. 
> 
> JKR mentions a few times that Draco isn't dumb enough to pull
> something when a teacher's around to see him.  (His assault on Harry
> that preceded the Great Ferret Incident was atypical in this regard
> but I think we can put it down to emotional upheaval because Harry
> had just dissed his mother.)  He never lets Snape see what he's
> doing: the "Potter Stinks" badges appear when Snape's back is turned
> and during the ricochet cursing incident he accuses Harry of
> attacking him with no mention of attacking Harry back.  Snape did 
not
> see the attack; he only saw the consequences.  
> 
> I don't redemption is on Snape's mind regarding Draco: he's part of
> Snape's house (which matters a lot to Snape), he's anti-Potter
> (ditto) and he's probably a little suck in private (an assumption, I
> know but I think a valid one.)

Snape is a major favorer of the Slytherin students.  JKR goes to 
pains to mention that Severus is particularly light-handed and kind-
tempered to the Slytherins (not merely Draco), and particularly 
bullying to the Gryffindors (because of Harry).  I don't think he's 
even considered whether Draco's going to grow up to be a good little 
wizard or a Death Eater just like Dear old Dad.

And let's not forget -- Draco is, in addition to being sneaky behind 
Snape's back when he takes shots at Harry -- also a major suck-up.

[without the book] "Professor Snape, sir, I'll tell father to tell 
the Governors of Hogwarts to make you Headmaster when Dumbledore's 
gone!"  and other such cloying ego strokes have come from Draco's 
lips, earning him kind smiles (inasmuch as Severus is capable of 
them).

> 
> And another prediction: Snape never had a crush on Lily Evans 
Potter;
> rather, he had the adolescent burn for Narcissa Malfoy and goes easy
> on her kid as a result.
> 
No, I'm sorry but I don't buy that, even though it is very sweet.  

If Snape loved Narcissa,  and she married Lucius,  I believe his 
inclination would be resentment.  "Draco is the son that should have 
been MINE!"  rather than "Ah, Draco, the son I would've had if 
only..." 

Severus isn't really given to displays of romantic fancy, after all.  

And as I recall, when Gilderoy mentioned love potions, he reacted 
very poorly. I can't phrase from work without the book but it was 
along the order of:  'woe betide the student coming to Severus Snape 
to ask his help in making a love potion.' 

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 19:19:37 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:19:37 -0000
Subject: Ron's money problems (was Re: Ron Week: More Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9avj9g+liun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avmc9+8cb9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16291

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., arabella at s... wrote:
> > The material possessions issue is a little different; it cuts 
very  
> > deeply into Ron.  He makes comment after comment about his 
poverty  
> > and other people's comparative ease.  He's extremely unhappy about
> > his 
> > financial situation.  But I think it shows a strength, rather 
than 
> a  
> > weakness, that he is willing to admit this in such a forthright  
> > manner ("I hate being poor.")  In my opinion, that's a damn hard
> > thing 
> > to say, especially in front of your best friend who has money and 
> the 
> > girl you've got a crush on (that's IMO). 
> 
> I agree with everyone who's said Ron's become more rigid as the 
books 
> go on, but I think part of this has to do with his poverty. At 11, 
> you may be a little bothered by your used stuff, but by 14, you 
care 
> very much. 
> 
> The scene in GoF with his dress robes is played for laughs, but 
it's 
> heartwrenching for a teenager to be wearing loser clothes, and 
> especially to a big event like the Yule Ball. Yes, he was a jerk at 
> the Ball, but why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't 
look 
> to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes 
> lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she 
> looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.

Oh, absolutely!   Not to mention, as you've already brought up, the 
way Ron reacted upon seeing the way out-of-date dress robes, and 
knowing he had no choice but to deal with them because they were the 
best he could do. 
> 
> And how must Quidditch-loving Ron feel to have his already famous 
> best friend zooming around on the best broomstick ever made while 
> he's got to ride something that gets passed by butterflies? 

My inclination here is to believe that Ron either uses a school 
broomstick, or that Harry lets him ride the Firebolt off-season if he 
promises to be careful wtih it.   Ron's always seemed somewhat 
supportive of Harry's Quidditch pursuit.  He even gives Harry gifts 
that are Quidditch related. 

> Yes, Ron needs to get over those feelings of jealousy and 
inadequacy, 
> but he won't really be able to do that until he gets out of 
Hogwarts, 
> gets a job and can start a life of his own. After all, Bill and 
> Charlie seem to be doing just fine (Bill's got enough swag to 
splurge 
> on a pair of dragon boots, after all), but look how the twins 
behave 
> in GoF. 

They'd apparently squirrelled some away -- which is why they were so 
upset that Bagman skanked them.   And it's possible that they figure 
they're poor, they may as well have fun before they have to grow up, 
buckle down, and get serious.  

The middle teens are the times when you feel the poverty the 
> most and can do the least about it, so my heart goes out to Ron. I 
> think we should cut him a little slack.

I feel badly for him as well.   Especially when Scabbers is revealed 
to be Pettigrew.   Not only was his pet a hand-me-down, and damaged 
goods at that -- but it turned out to have been a murderer in 
disguise!  
> 
> [And as an aside--why *are* the Weasleys still so broke? By GoF, 
> they've got three of the kids working 

Three? I thought Bill and Charlie were the only ones with jobs? Am I 
confused, missing something? 

and two of them out of the 
> house. I wonder if the parting of the ways will help or hurt 
Arthur. 
> If he gets booted out of his ministry job for insubordination or 
some 
> such, there'll be big problems at home.]
> 
> ~Rosmerta

I hope not! 

The poor Weasleys have it rough already [no pun intended!]

Indigo




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Apr 10 15:39:20 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:39:20 EST5EDT
Subject: Survivor Popularity
Message-ID: <6051140876@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16292

OK...I hate the show.  And I can't tell you why because I'm not too 
sure myself.  I also hate Road Rules and Real World on Mtv, too.  
But, then again, I hate Mtv now...remember when Mtv played 
MUSIC?!  But I digress....

*ahem*

Anyway, the only thing I can figure out why I don't like these kind of 
shows is because I get embarrassed for the morons who end up 
showing their true colors.  I just cringe.  I want to shake them and 
say "Don't you remember you're on CAMERA?!  Your MOTHER is 
going to see this!"  I realize, of course, that their mother may not 
still be alive or couldn't care less that he/she is acting like a loser 
on camera in front of millions of watchers....still...

The only one of these shows that I've liked so far was the Borneo 
Eco-Challenge coverage they had last week.  That was fun to 
watch.  But I think that was because I dated a guy who had done 
three Eco-Challenges in the past and I was hoping to catch a 
glimpse of him this year.  Didn't see him.  Oh well.


Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue Apr 10 19:40:13 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:40:13 -0000
Subject: Hermione (Re: [Ron Week]: More Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9avgfh+ciii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avnit+8835@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16293

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> Even though I did some work on cases involving OCD when I was in law 
> school, to refresh my recollection to counter your claim about 
> Hermione's studying being a sympton of OCD, I did a little research 
> on Webmd.com - check out 
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.51712 for more - OCD is a 
> likely biological-based neurological problem that can manifest at 
any 
> age.

I wrote the qualifier "potential". If Hermione's obsession with 
studying begins to affect her activities of daily living (so far it 
hasn't), then and only then can a diagnosis can be made. For the most 
part, obsessions are considered 'normal' until they interfere 
substantially with thinking or other mental functions. Usually, it is 
only when a behavior affects a persons' daily living that it is called 
a 'disorder': some people manage to tiptoe on the brink until some 
sort of stress tips them over. But that does not negate the existence 
of the behavior. 

But this raises the questions why Hermione studies so much when she 
clearly knows the material and why would her greatest fear be to fail 
classes? It could be that Hermione equates her self-worth with her 
grades. But then, why should she equate her self-worth with *academic* 
success? In other words, what is the origin of this and how does this 
affect Hermione's interaction with others? This opens a can of worms 
concerning Hermione's psyche and can explain how she regards/treats 
others. 

Demelza




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 19:40:51 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:40:51 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avfte+l0g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avnk3+dnad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16294

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious 
little 
> > about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, 
> and 
> > no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> > contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I 
do 
> > feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with 
oranges, 
> so 
> > to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR 
> books 
> > to the contrary.
> 
> There are citations to the books. They are veiled and subtle, but 
> there are places in the books that have been published to date
which 
> would support JKR if she does decide to have a manner of redemption 
> for Draco in future books. 
> 
> Doing this without the books (and without Cassie to call on for 
> assistance) - but here goes:
> 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment
on 
> the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if 
Crookshanks 
> has *no* kneazle blood, this is clearly irrelevant, but if the car 
is 
> part kneazle and therefore in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
> detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
> reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 
> 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way 
> of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by 
canon 
> evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
> 3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things 
that 
> are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to 
Muggle-borns, 
> he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR could have just 
as 
> easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said it, didn't I?" - but 
she 
> chose the word "warned..." Could that be foreshadowing? It's 
> impossible to know now....but it's impossible to know *for sure* 
> about almost anything in books 5, 6 and 7.
> 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying 
to 
> curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and
the 
> Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he would 
> support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the interest
of 
> getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's side, but it is 
> equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as being completely 
> evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not unredeemable, 
then 
> it is possible that redemption and a turning away from Lucius and 
the 
> Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the future.

Subtle is right!  I would take issue with you that the evidence for a 
budding attraction for Hermione and Ron is less evident in the canon. 
The suppositon that Crookshanks is a kneazle is another example of 
taking an unsupported assumption and building upon it.  IMO the use
of "warned" by JKR is an attempt to show the malicious glee Malfoy 
has.  Draco is simply wallowing in it there.  I don't think that the 
other texts cited support any quality in Malfoy that he could
nurture into a redemption, nor do I see any foreshadowing of a twist 
in plot.  I have, however, been wrong before. *grin*

Haggridd




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Apr 10 15:42:22 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:42:22 EST5EDT
Subject: Sorry
Message-ID: <605DBC0D9D@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16295

Yet again I've posted an Off-topic message to this site.  So sorry, 
folks.  I'm getting my Harry addresses all screwed up again.

*sigh*

I should name one Harry and the other one Fluffy and the other Pig  
or something.  Because Harry1 and Harry2 and Harry3 isn't doing 
the job.


Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue Apr 10 19:45:19 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:45:19 -0000
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
In-Reply-To: <9avjic+i00a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avnsh+6ac3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16296

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" <muggle-reader at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi --
> > 
> > I know we're talking about Ron this week, but I'd had this 
message 
> about
> > Percy in my inbox for awhile, meaning to reply when I had more 
time.
> > So, here goes:
> > 
> > Demelza wrote:
> > 
> > > Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the
> > > fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been 
> looking
> > > pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy"
> > > Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) <snip>
> > > Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 17, that Ginny 
was
> > > beginning to think Percy suspected she was involved with the 
> Chamber
> > > ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm pale and I'm not 
myself. I
> > > think he suspects me
"). That, in itself, is a credible reason 
for
> > > Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16.
> > 
> > Interesting.  I took the above incidents to mean that Percy was 
more
> > perceptive than the other Weasley boys and had picked up on her
> > distress.  None of the others seem to notice there's anything 
amiss 
> with
> > her.  But, Percy is perceptive enough to make her take some 
> medicinal
> > potion (a protective older brother rather than a bully in my 
mind). 
>  He
> > also apparently notices and comments more than once that she is 
> pale,
> > doesn't look well & doesn't seem herself.  How can this be 
anything
> > other than concern for her?  She may be interpreting his concern
> > strangely, because she's worried that she will lose his 
respect/love 
> if
> > he finds out the "truth" about what's ailing her.  But, he clearly
> > demonstrates concern for her.  I don't think she's afraid of 
Percy 
> so
> > much as she's afraid of him losing respect for her.  That's 
really 
> what
> > I was getting at when I said that she "hero-worships" him.  That 
> wasn't
> > the right choice of words.  But, what I mean is that Ginny does 
seem 
> to
> > value his good opinion of her.
> > 
> 
> CoS Ch 9, Ron comforts Ginny but also informs Harry that Ginny is 
> upset about Mrs. Norris' attack. Ron tells Harry that Ginny likes 
cats 
> and assumes that is why she is overly upset. So Ron DOES recognize 
> that Ginny is upset. His solution is words of comfort, whereas, 
> Percy's solution is a chemical concoction. It could be how each 
> brother interprets Ginny. Ron recognizes her emotional distress and 
> Percy recognizes her physical distress.


I don't think it was so much intentional slight on Percy's part as 
the fact that he thinks he has to be Head Boy first and Big Brother 
second.  Possibly, Percy figured Ron was already doing the "there, 
there, Ginny, it's okay now," so it would be smothering to her if 
both of her elder brothers were doing so? 

> 
> > > So let's examine what the books contain about Percy and his 
> attitudes
> > > toward his family.
> > > <snip>
> > > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and 
Ron 
> sit
> > > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a 
> "time
> > > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
> Throughout
> > > the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and 
> ready
> > > to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de 
> facto
> > > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his 
dormitory
> > > while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not 
being
> > > terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.
> > 
> > > Milz added: As
> > > the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers 
> instead of
> > > locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older 
kids 
> in
> > > a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the 
younger
> > > kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of 
> shunned
> > > his duty, so to speak.
> > >
> > 
> > Someone else commented on this, but it bears repeating.  Everyone
> > handles crisis differently.  Percy is just the type to need 
solitary
> > introspective time at that point, and I don't think it's fair to 
be
> > judgmental about him because of the way he needs/chooses to handle
> > stress & grief.  It's clear that he's very different from the 
twins 
> and
> > Ron as far as his personality goes.  I don't know that it's at 
all 
> fair
> > to suggest that he has a "duty" to be outwardly & publicly 
> comforting to
> > his siblings just because he's "de facto" the eldest Weasley.  
He's 
> got
> > a right to handle grief & shock in the way that most suits his own
> > personality.  IMO.
> > 
> 
> I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, 
that 
> passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been 
> supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of 
> familial support. 

I think Percy tends a tad bit toward solitude and self-centeredness.  
He shut himself away to write to his Ravenclaw girlfriend as well, 
and was worried people would find out he even _had_ a girlfriend. I 
don't think it was out of malice, or the need to grieve alone. I just 
think that when Percy has heavy weight on his mind, he goes hermit.  

Plus, there's always the possibility that the other boys had each 
other, and didn't want or need him.

Fred & George especially probably give Percy that impression what 
with changing his badge to read BigHead Boy and otherwise making fun 
of him for being so proper and formal. 
> 
> > > (GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming 
> with
> > > Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron 
> up.
> > > Percy is described as "pale".
> > 
> > He looked "white and somehow younger than usual."  You left out 
the 
> last
> > bit.  He also waded out to meet them.  He abandoned the dignity 
of 
> being
> > a judge and took off out into the lake.  I'm amazed that anyone 
> could
> > put a negative spin on Percy for this particular scene.  What it 
> says to
> > me is: in the face of true physical danger to a family member, 
Percy
> > will abandon rules, authority & his position.
> > 
> > > A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> > > clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a 
> negative
> > > connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the 
clutches 
> of
> > > a madman.
> > 
> > I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that 
> shows
> > strong emotional connection.

I'm inclined to agree with the person who said clutches usually is 
what a villain has a damsel in...that is to say,  negative. :/ 
> > 
> > > Percy's actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have 
been
> > > really be concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than 
the 
> one
> > > hour.

I imagine there was some concern there, but Percy has absolute faith 
in The System.  As Ron pointed out to Harry, there is NO way that 
Dumbledore and the other teachers would have let the hostages drown. 

 On
> > > the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside
> > > herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron 
> and
> > > Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim 
with 
> her
> > > to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed
> > > anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that
> > > Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's 
> Ministry
> > > Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this 
too.
> > > Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action 
is 
> not
> > > objectively clear-cut.
> > 
> > Oh, c'mon!  Sure, Percy as a judge objectively knew the rules, 
but 
> he
> > was so concerned about Ron's well-being that he completely forgot 
> the
> > "rules" for once & acted completely on his emotions.  IMO 
anyway.  I
> > just see very little room for argument that Percy waded into the 
> lake &
> > clutched at Ron, looking "younger than usual," as a means of 
drawing
> > attention to himself & away from Ron and Harry!  Sorry .... but I 
> can't
> > see that there's much basis to this argument.  If he'd wanted to 
> assume
> > his usual stance of "authority figure," he'd have simply waited 
at 
> the
> > water's edge & launched into a lecture the second Ron touched 
land.

A lecture on what?  

Ron was chosen by the Tournament committee, with Dumbledore's okay, 
to be Harry's hostage.  
> 
> My interpretations of Percy's action here is based upon Percy's 
prior 
> actions. That's why I find this passage difficult to interpret 
> difinitively. As I stated, on the one hand Percy could be acting 
out 
> of true brotherly concern. On the other hand, Percy could be acting 
> out of brotherly concern with a prospect of personal gain. From 
what 
> we have seen of Percy in the books and chapters leading up to this 
> incident, he tends to take sides with others when his family is in 
a 
> fix, for example solely blaming Arthur for the post-World cup 
Ministry 
> events. As I wrote earlier, even Molly thought that was unfounded 
and 
> chastized him for that comment. Again, it's a passage that I can 
see 
> interpreted in different ways.
> 
> > 
> > > I said: >However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not 
Ron's.
> > >
> > > Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's.
> > > <snip> In spite of Trelawney's track record, Hermione still 
> considered
> > > her a "fraud".
> > 
> > JKR does seem to be poking fun at Trelawney though, and most of 
her
> > "correct" perdictions are easily explained away by logic or
> > coincidence.  Dumbledore himself attributes her with only 2 
correct
> > predictions; you've given her a far greater track record.  <g>
> >
> 
> Trelawny's predictions are partially correct. IIRC, she advise 
Parvati 
> to beware of a red-haired man, when it was Padma who was on the 
date 
> from hell with Ron. Hermione, however, does not allow herself to 
even 
> consider Trelawney can be correct with the Voldemort prediction. 
She's 
> too concrete.
> 
> > > Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh 
> treatment
> > > of Winky.
> > 
> > Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the 
> measure
> > of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius thinks
> > Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> > character.
> > 
> 
> Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to co-workers. 

[Muggle intrusion:  Come work where I work. A guy who's worked here 
about a year is constantly complaining that nobody treats him the 
same since his promotion -- like he can't be trusted to rub elbows.  
So some folks view themselves as inferior to him now, insofar as the 
corporate pecking order goes.] 

> Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. Perhaps this is 
due 
> to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, there is no 
> possibility that he could turn on his family. Nothing in this world 
is 
> 100%, with any luck Hermione will realize.

Hope she's finally beginning to catch on.  No doubt she knows about 
Lockhart now, and she has seen for herself that Black was an innocent 
man. 
> 
> > > Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems to have respected Winky 
> enough
> > > to consider her opinions. Dobby was terrified of Malfoy. Winky
> > > retained a fondness for the Crouches: that should have raised a 
> red
> > > flag.
> > 
> > Dobby is the exception rather than the rule.  He's consistently 
> painted
> > as the "odd bird" amongst house-elves.  Winky is illustrating the
> > typical house elf attitude of complete & total subservience, even 
in 
> the
> > face of disgrace & poor treatment.  I don't think Crouch 
considered 
> her
> > opinions as much as he had some guilt working for his neglect of 
his 
> son
> > during the formative years.
> >
>  
> I think the House-elves are good examples of "one man's hell is 
> another man's heaven". Winky is happy with her servitude. Dobby 
isn't. 
> Who is right and who is wrong depends upon the values and opinions 
of 
> the interpreter. They also exemplify that the only time one can 
change 
> is if one's truly desires to change.

Agreed. The other house-elves seemed embarrassed and unhappy and 
tried to get Hermione and her SPEW spiel out the door as quickly as 
possible. But we don't know how they reacted once she was gone.  Did 
they talk amongst themselves and say "Lovely, sweet, clever Hermione 
Granger is trying to help us poor elves!"  or did they say, "Oh! That 
Hermione Granger is going to ruin everything for us!"  

Also, keep in mind that Dumbledore is probably kinder to house-elves 
than most folks. 
> 
> If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, 
why 
> should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are 
> incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's 
portrayal, 
> Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's 
pleadings 
> should not have made difference at all.   
> 
> > > Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get 
Scabbers, 
> as
> > > Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get
> > > Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal 
traitor, 
> but
> > > it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about
> > > Crookshank.
> > 
> > Ron was wrong there too.  :--)
> 
> Ch 9 PoA, 
> ***
> As Harry opened the door, something brushed against his leg. He 
bent 
> down just in time to grab Crooskshanks by the end of his bushy tail 
> and drag him outside.
> "You, know, I reckon Ron was right about you, " Harry told 
Crookshanks 
> suspiciously. "There are plenty of mice around this place--go chase 
> them."
> ***
> In short, Harry thought Crookshanks was after Scabbers.
> By this time in the book, Scabbers was thin and sickly. Why a cat 
> would want to eat a sickly rat instead of a nice healthy, fat one 
is 
> beyond logic. Crookshanks WAS after Scabbers, maybe not to kill 
him, 
> but he definitely did target Scabbers. Hermione chalked it up to 
> normal cat behavior and , again, refused to entertain the 
possibility 
> of something else at play.   
> 
> Actually, they were all amazed that Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew. 
> Initially, Hermione couldn't believe that Sirius was an animagus 
> because he wasn't registered. 

True, but Crookshanks did choose Scabbers over any other rodent.  
Even so far back as the pet shop.  There were trick-roping rats and 
mice and Crookshanks left *them* alone.   [In fairness, yes, there 
could be an anti-cat spell on their cage to prevent such an attack by 
a cat.]  
> 
> > > Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has
> > > always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of 
Harry.

Nettled, maybe, more than just jealous. 

> > > Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron
> > > thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, 
> thinks
> > > Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are 
> lies.
> > 
> > But, Ron's reactions are motivated by jealousy.  Harry ends up 
with
> > everything.  I always thought Ron was using the "you're lying to 
me"
> > business as a cover-up for "You're years below the age-line but 
> still
> > you get to compete for that money & glory."

But Ron *knows* Harry is willing to share, and doesn't want to take 
charity. Ron *only* accepted a pair of play-by-play binoculars if he 
could pay Harry back for them.

He was embarrassed and upset that what he paid Harry back *with* was 
Fairy Gold, and that it disappeared *without Harry even noticing*.  

> >
> 
> I wrote this in the Ron Week Questions message, but I'm hard-
pressed 
> to find anything in the books and the chapters of GoF preceding the 
> feud that indicates Ron is jealous of Harry. 
>  
> > > Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission 
in
> > > Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that
> > > Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very
> > > seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon 
> they're
> > > trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.
> > 
> > Amy Z said it far better than I did, but yes, Ron's jealousy is 
the
> > underlying reason for the feud.  Ron is jealous of Harry and that
> > jealousy turns into stubborn pride.  He refuses to admit that 
Harry 
> was
> > telling the truth when he said he didn't put his own name in the
> > Goblet.  He refuses to admit that Harry might be in danger because
> > someone else put his name in the Goblet instead.  He's so eaten 
up 
> with
> > jealousy over the potential winnings & glory that he can't even 
see 
> how
> > shocked/stunned/scared Harry is when his name comes out of the 
> Goblet.
> > Hermione saw this; how is it that Ron didn't?  Jealousy.  I think 
he
> > can't admit the truth because he'd have to put his jealousy aside 
to 
> do
> > so.
> > 
> 
> GoF, Ch 20. 
> ***
> "Harry," [Ron] said, very seriously, "whoever put your name in the 
> goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!"
> ***
> 
> This certainly isn't a declaration of "I'm so sorry Harry", but the 
> implication is there. 
> 
True.  But I think Ron should've swallowed his pride -- especially 
after Harry had to rescue him from the lake. 

> > > The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is 
that
> > > Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She 
judges 
> a
> > > person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any 
> "bad"
> > > actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). 
Conversely 
> she
> > > judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" 
> from
> > > that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the 
> "gray
> > > areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. 
IMO, 
> this
> > > quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging 
> character.
> > 
> > Ron certainly employs black/white logic when thinking about Snape
> > though, doesn't he?  Hermione, OTOH, is clearly capable of seeing
> > Snape's gray areas.
> > 
> > Amy Z wrote:
> > 
> > > She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get
> > > Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil 
of 
> her
> > > own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  
> She
> > > doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's 
because 
> he's
> > > a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's 
> not as
> > > blind as you're making her out to be.
> > >
> > Perfect!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  <g>
> > 
> > Penny
> > (card-carrying member of Percy Fans Unite!)
> 
> Snape---well, it's too early to be certain of Snape. I want to 
reserve 
> any opinions about him until after I've read the next books.
> 
> About "normal cat behavior", Hermione owned a cat. Ron owned a rat. 
> "Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior 
dictates 
> that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things. 
> Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat 
to 
> be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the 
> cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard 
Hermione 
> has for Ron and his possessions. 

Agreed again.  But perhaps Hermione is taking this as an opportunity 
for the times Ron has said unkind things to or about her.  He did 
reduce her to tears first year when he said "maybe she realized 
that's why she doesn't have any friends."  He felt bad about it, but 
again, never came right out and said "I'm sorry." 


Indigo
[who's amazing the Potterites she works with by quoting from the list 
at them!] 




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 19:46:47 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:46:47 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avfte+l0g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avnv7+dac5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16297

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious 
little 
> > about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving graces, 
> and 
> > no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> > contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  I 
do 
> > feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with 
oranges, 
> so 
> > to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the JKR 
> books 
> > to the contrary.
> 
> There are citations to the books. They are veiled and subtle, but 
> there are places in the books that have been published to date 
which 
> would support JKR if she does decide to have a manner of redemption 
> for Draco in future books. 
> 
> Doing this without the books (and without Cassie to call on for 
> assistance) - but here goes:
> 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment 
on 
> the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if 
Crookshanks 
> has *no* kneazle blood, this is clearly irrelevant, but if the car 
is 
> part kneazle and therefore in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
> detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
> reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 
> 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way 
> of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by 
canon 
> evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
> 3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things 
that 
> are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to Muggle-
borns, 
> he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR could have just 
as 
> easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said it, didn't I?" - but 
she 
> chose the word "warned..." Could that be foreshadowing? It's 
> impossible to know now....but it's impossible to know *for sure* 
> about almost anything in books 5, 6 and 7.
> 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying 
to 
> curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and 
the 
> Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he would 
> support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the interest 
of 
> getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's side, but it is 
> equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as being completely 
> evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not unredeemable, 
then 
> it is possible that redemption and a turning away from Lucius and 
the 
> Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the future.


ok.....new girl here! kinda young (13), but i think i can handle this 
list!


Snape accepts Malfoy's statement rather than Harry's due to his 
dislike of his father. myabe Malfoy has allways had a crush on 
Hermione? I don't like the idea, but Malfoy underneath appears 
imature, this could be why he teases her. The fact that most people 
have had the idea of the redemption of Draco makes me believe that 
Rowling will not have used the idea (?).


thats all for now......just gonna catch up on what i missed on 
previous posts......



claire






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 19:48:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:48:37 -0400
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
Message-ID: <F1066yL2m9lHiu3fQtY00000dc1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16298

Heidi wrote:

>Just a question I'm tossing out here:
>How many of you who forgive Ron's prejudices about giants and house >elves
>because "he grew up in a wizarding family" would be willing to (a) 
> >consider the
>genesis of Draco's seeming prejudices against muggle-born witches & 
> >wizards, and (b) forgive him those?

The truth comes out...Heidi, you don't like Ron because he hates Draco even 
more than Harry does.  Admit it!  <g>

Okay, it's a fair question.  First of all, I think his prejudice against 
giants is negligible--his feelings for Hagrid aren't affected in the 
slightest by his learning that he's half-giant, and he shows no qualms about 
Dumbledore's plans to send envoys to the giants.

But to address your point, I do =not= forgive Ron's prejudices--I just hope 
he'll outgrow them; in fact, my guess is he already has, but is 
exasperatingly slow to say aloud that he's changed his mind, as Lisa and 
others have argued very well.  But they are not on a par with Draco's.  Ron 
harbors reactionary views about house-elves, but in this he is like almost 
everyone else in the wizarding world (which is not to excuse him, but just 
to place his prejudice on a spectrum), and he treats the house-elves he 
encounters with genuine kindness and respect.  =Speaking from canon=, and 
not from an admirably imaginative but entirely speculative hidden story in 
which Draco is a secret good guy, Draco is actively hostile to 
non-purebloods.  Do I need to cite chapter and verse?  On the racism 
spectrum, Ron is your garden-variety white guy who would never say a racist 
word but doesn't get what black folks are complaining about; Draco is a 
junior member of the KKK.

And if we're talking about prejudices, Draco's singleminded devotion to the 
project of getting Buckbeak killed should be added into the mix.  So should 
his unforgivable comment about Cedric and refusal to salute him.  He has 
seen the choice that lies before everyone, and he's sided with Voldemort, 
with glee.  It just isn't comparable to Ron's attitudes.

Meanness:  wow, I thought I had a low tolerance for sarcasm, but I never 
would have characterized Ron as "mean."  Can someone give some specific 
examples, aside from the Yule Ball fight, which I will grant you was a mean 
moment?  A lot of what people are mentioning is hot-temperedness.  He is 
definitely the one with the short fuse, but while that's a problem, I don't 
call it meanness.  I even find it rather endearing, especially because it is 
so often in defense of others--Harry, Hermione, Ginny, Neville--that he 
loses it.  Even most of the shots at himself that so enrage him are really 
about his family--their poverty, their status.

My 2 Sickles,
Amy Z
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 19:52:31 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:52:31 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <9avh5h+44ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avo9v+ctq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16299

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > > I entirely agree with Naama.  In the canon there is precious 
> little 
> > > about Draco Malfoy that is good.  I can recall no saving 
graces, 
> > and 
> > > no setup foreshadowong any manner of redemption.  This is in 
> > > contradistinction to many fanfics, where speculation is rife.  
I 
> do 
> > > feel that some of the posters have been mixing apples with 
> oranges, 
> > so 
> > > to speak.  I would be very interested in any citation in the 
JKR 
> > books 
> > > to the contrary.
> Heidi wrote:
> > There are citations to the books. They are veiled and subtle, but 
> > there are places in the books that have been published to date 
> which 
> > would support JKR if she does decide to have a manner of 
redemption 
> > for Draco in future books. 
> > 
> 
> > 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> > World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the 
way 
> > of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by 
> canon 
> > evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
> 
> <bg> I think we're going to have to agree to differ on that one.
> 
> > 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> > Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were 
trying 
> to 
> > curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore and 
> the 
> > Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he would 
> > support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the interest 
> of 
> > getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's side, but it 
is 
> > equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as being 
completely 
> > evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's not unredeemable, 
> then 
> > it is possible that redemption and a turning away from Lucius and 
> the 
> > Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the future.
> 
> I see this two ways.  One, that Snape truly believed that Lucius 
> Malfoy wasn't a DE, and was just favouring Draco because he is in 
> Slytherin.  Entirely plausible by the sudden start (or whatever) he 
> gives when Harry lists Malfoy as among those who went back to 
> Voldemort.
> Another alternative, depending on some far-sightedness of Snape, 
and 
> perhaps Dumbledore, is that Snape knew that at some point he would 
be 
> returning to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore, and wanted the 
> Malfoys to believe that he was still on the "dark side" by still 
> favouring the Slytherins - every little detail helps in a situation 
> like this.
> Finally, does Snape trust Malfoy?  He certainly favours him, but 
this 
> seem to me to be more as a way of disfavouring the Gryffindors and 
> making them suffer.  Therefore, not purely for Malfoy's benefit.
> 
> Catherine
> Btw: I agree with you. I couldn't be a prosecutor either.



*new girl* kinda young (13) but i think i can handle this list!


I think Snape believed Draco's version of events mainly because he 
would rather believe it than Harry's version, due to his immense 
dislike of Harry and his father.


ok.....I'm not writing much now, just want to check up on previous 
posts, see what i missed.....  :)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 19:54:49 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:54:49 -0000
Subject: Typical Ron
In-Reply-To: <70.976ae0f.2803f0ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9avoe9+t7ej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16300

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Um... 14 year old boys actually do this?  At age 14?  Still?
> > 
> > Could just be me.  But that really sounds like behavior a kid 2-5 
> > years younger would exhibit.
> > 
> > Even my thirteen year old boys don't do this.  My fifth graders 
(ages 
> > 10-11) would, but most of my girls would sock the crap out of 
them if 
> > they tried it.
> > 
> 
> Ebony, Wow!  I'd love to come see your school.  Emotionally mature 
14 year 
> old boys?  <vbg>  

Hey!  I didn't say emotionally mature.  Not by any means.  

But hair-pulling is "like, *so* fifth grade."

> And when it comes to typical young male 
> behavior, I would have to go with Ron's before Harry's. 

Hmm... why Ron as Typical Boy and not one of the others like Seamus 
or Dean?  I don't think he's all that typical... which is why he 
fascinates me.

 
> Are Ron's actions/words always the best in a situation?  Probably 
not.  Are > they abnormal?  I don't think so.  He's just growing up.  
Adolescence is > rough, even if you weren't locked in a cupboard for 
10 years.

I agree.  Nothing abnormal about Ron yet.  But... I still say that 
someone needs to keep an eye on him.

> Who glances at her husband in front of his PS2 and wonders when 
he's going to 
> mature emotionally. <vbg>
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Like us reading Harry Potter as adults?  <vbg>

There's a bit of kid inside of all of us--no matter what our age, no 
matter what our gender.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is just getting back into her teenage 
passions for chess and video games)




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 19:55:37 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:55:37 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F73QHeFXvjQN0h000016fb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16301




> > > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron
>sit
> > > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a
>"time
> > > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers.

Yes, people handle times of trial differently, but there's another dimension 
as well.  Percy is blaming himself for Ginny's abduction (and, for all they 
know, death) because he feels he, as the oldest brother at Hogwarts, has 
failed to protect her, and is too ashamed to join the others in the common 
room.  In his mind, he has failed his whole family and the school - in other 
words, his whole world.  His self-image as a good brother and prefect means 
a lot to him, and this has been dealt a severe blow.   He feels he has 
nothing to offer the others.  This may not be perfect behaviour, but it is 
understandable, and I feel desperately sorry for him.  I like to think 
Dumbledore had a
quiet word with him and helped him to see that he couldn't have prevented 
it.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 19:59:32 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:59:32 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can We Get Rid of Announcements?
References: <9avkor+4frp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018501c0c1f8$c284d7f0$5972023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 16302

Joywitch wrote,

> So, whaddya think,
> folks?  Should we demand that our leaders repeal the Send
> Announcements To Another List Law of 2001?  I say Dump the
> Announcements List!!!!!! Members, unite, and demand your rights to
> fewer HP4GUps lists!!!!

Err ... J-witch, I'm not a moderator (immoderator maybe?), but I have been
around HP4GU for a while now, and I can hardly say how much I appreciate the
announcement list. It's doing precisely what it's supposed to: providing a
low-volume, quick-read forum in which listers can pick up on the latest
information, articles, urls's, fanfic chapters, action toys and the like.
And they can do it without wading through the 673 posts that piled up during
that weekend out of town ...

So as much as I'd enjoy a riot or two (what sort of nutcase would want to
live in *boring* times?), I'd rather save my  energy for the May 1st parade
...

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 20:03:07 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:03:07 -0000
Subject: UnFunny Things; Perspective; Chapter 37 Comments - LONG
In-Reply-To: <20010410181347.47800.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9avotr+76n6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16303

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their compartment
> > on the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now, if
> > Crookshanks...is...in posession of "an uncanny ability to 
> > detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack of 
> > reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious. 
> 
> Or it could mean that he's so obvious and open about it that it
> hardly counts as something that needs detecting.
> 
> 
> > 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the 
> > World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the 
way
> > of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by
> > canon evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is. 
> 
> I can buy this.  We should perhaps be careful not to lump Harry, Ron
> and Hermione into one group regarding Draco.  It's entirely possible
> that Draco reluctantly (perhaps unconsciously at this point) likes
> Hermione and is trying to impress her Draco-style.  Which
> unfortunately means being his own less-than-wonderful self to get 
her
> attention and then lashing out hurtfully when it doesn't work.  In
> Draco's universe, a girl should be thrilled to be singled out for
> attention.  Pansy Parkinson gets it; Hermione doesn't.
> 
> > 3. On the train on the way home in GoF, when he says some things
> > that are clearly, on the surface, very nasty, with regard to
> > Muggle-borns, he actually uses the sentence, "I warned you!" JKR 
> > could have just as easily had him say, "I told you!" or "I said 
it,
> 
> > didn't I?" - but she chose the word "warned..." Could that be 
> > foreshadowing? 
> 
> Since the context of the phrase is clearly meant to be menacing to 
H,
> H & R, I don't think a milder interpretation is appropriate. 
> Especially with Crabbe & Goyle present.
> 
> 
> > 4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
> > Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying
> > to curse each other. *IF* you believe that Snape has Dumbledore 
and
> > the Old Crowd's best interests at heart, it is possible that he 
> > would support a completely evil and unredeemable Draco, in the 
> > interest of getting Draco to change his ways and be on Snape's 
> > side, but it is equally probable that Snape does not see Draco as 
> > being completely evil and unredeemable *at this point*. If he's 
not
> 
> > unredeemable, then it is possible that redemption and a turning 
> > away from Lucius and the  Death Eaters (tm) will happen in the 
> > future. 
> 
> JKR mentions a few times that Draco isn't dumb enough to pull
> something when a teacher's around to see him.  (His assault on Harry
> that preceded the Great Ferret Incident was atypical in this regard
> but I think we can put it down to emotional upheaval because Harry
> had just dissed his mother.)  He never lets Snape see what he's
> doing: the "Potter Stinks" badges appear when Snape's back is turned
> and during the ricochet cursing incident he accuses Harry of
> attacking him with no mention of attacking Harry back.  Snape did 
not
> see the attack; he only saw the consequences.  
> 
> I don't redemption is on Snape's mind regarding Draco: he's part of
> Snape's house (which matters a lot to Snape), he's anti-Potter
> (ditto) and he's probably a little suck in private (an assumption, I
> know but I think a valid one.)
> 
> And another prediction: Snape never had a crush on Lily Evans 
Potter;
> rather, he had the adolescent burn for Narcissa Malfoy and goes easy
> on her kid as a result.


hmmmmm....just a little thought here......Why do the Malfoys hate the 
Potters so much? Simply because they brought about the dimise of mr 
V? Or something deeper? Me and a few of my HP friends were discussing 
this earlier, perhaps Lucius had a thing for Lilly? I dont think 
so...but it could happen. Narcissa had a thing for James? ....kinda 
comical actually....!? Or something happened between their relatives?

....also, at the moment i am researching various meanings of HP 
names, Lilly means innocent....hmmmmm.......maybe she's not so 
innocent after all (?)

I do occasionally read rumour pages and one re-occuring theme is that 
Lilly Potter is the BIG climax...apparantly it has something to do 
with the green eyes (?) well.....any thoughts on this would be 
greatly appreciated!


claire (13, uk)
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 20:09:03 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:09:03 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron Week: More Questions
References: <9avdf5+3ba4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ab01c0c1fa$17277320$5972023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 16304

Arabella wrote,

> But as for prejudice aside from that against house-elves: we've never
> heard another word from Ron on the subject of werewolves, so I'm
> assuming he managed to get over that one.

Actually, isn't that Ron's hand that has penned in "aren't all bad" next to
the entry "Werewolves" in FB? (To tell the truth, all three hands look the
same to me--but perhaps I didn't look carefully enough.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."


> Wow.  That's a pretty negative painting of a character who gives me a
> lot of joy; let's see what I can say about that.  I'll agree with you
> that Ron has a jealous streak.  Oh yes.  On two levels, really (and I
>  think it's someone from SugarQuill who said this on one of the
> boards; I can't remember whom it was and I apologize for lifting your
> logic).  First, Ron's jealousy is in relationship to Harry's
> limelight.  Secondly, his jealousy is in relationship to other
> people's (not just Harry's, I imagine) material possessions.
>
> On the limelight issue: I'm hoping that his fight with Harry will
> inform Ron's position on this from here on out, and in fact I think
> we can already see him beginning to be a bigger person on this front
> "In tribute to their recently repaired friendship, Ron had kept the
> bitterness in his voice to a bare minimum."  That's a pretty good
> show for a young guy who's feeling edgy about this whole Yule Ball
> business.  I'm also hoping that, in light of what Harry has just been
>  through with Voldemort, Ron will begin to see that the limelight
> isn't necessarily the best of all places to be.  Of course, that's
> just a hope right now, but I have faith in Ron. <g>  My final hope on
>  that score is that Ron will come into a little limelight of his own
> that will give him a sense of self-worth that kills his jealousy of
> Harry.  (Though, as Ebony has beautifully pointed out, Ron already
> has
> a lot of important things that Harry doesn't have, and if he'd wake
> up
> and realize it, he'd be a bit better off, emotionally.)
>
> The material possessions issue is a little different; it cuts very
> deeply into Ron.  He makes comment after comment about his poverty
> and other people's comparative ease.  He's extremely unhappy about
> his
> financial situation.  But I think it shows a strength, rather than a
> weakness, that he is willing to admit this in such a forthright
> manner ("I hate being poor.")  In my opinion, that's a damn hard
> thing
> to say, especially in front of your best friend who has money and the
> girl you've got a crush on (that's IMO).  Ron is at least aware of
> who he is and what his struggles are and what motivates him.  I think
>  that's a huge first step to improving himself and overcoming those
> emotions.
>
> >This seems what Harry values him for.  When they are
> > no longer speaking, Harry misses Ron who can make him laugh, talk
> to
> > him about Quiddich, make Potions and Divination bearable.
>
> Yes.  Absolutely.  And we know how much Harry values laughter because
>  at the end of GoF, he more or less purchases some from the twins,
> for
>  his future.  "I could do with a few laughs.  We could all do with a
> few laughs.  I've got a feeling we're going to need them more than
> usual before long."   I think that Ron's wisecracking element is
> essential to Harry.  Harry loves him for it.
>
> >(I hated Ron during the Yule Ball episode, despite feeling very
> sorry
> > for him)
>
> Yeah, he was a prat there, wasn't he?  Attraction can cause the best
> of us to go off the deep end, though, I imagine - and that's what I
> see as the root cause of Ron's ridiculous behavior.  I don't worry
> too
> much about Hermione, though - she can take care of herself.  She got
> him back nice and quick -  had him mouthing like a goldfish out of
> water by the end of the night. <g>
>
> > Harry and Hermione seem so much more mature
>
> I'll give you that on the level that both Harry and Hermione seem to
> be able to contain their emotional responses more readily than Ron
> can do.  IMO: Harry acts on his core instinct, Hermione on her
> logical
> deductions, and Ron goes more or less right from the gut - emotion
> seems to drive him along and that can be seen as an immature level on
> which to function.  I personally think there's something
> heartbreakingly honest about that kind of emotional impulsiveness,
> but that's just my opinion.  Also, IMO, Hermione and Ron tend to
> function on an identical level from time to time, leaving Harry alone
>  to shoot for the marrow of the issue.  My favorite example of this
> is
>  the passage, "'You just don't like Crouch because of that elf,
> Winky' said Ron, sending a cushion soaring into the window.  'You
> just
> want to think Snape's up to something,' said Hermione, sending her
> cushion zooming neatly into the box.  'I just want to know what Snape
> did with his first chance; if he's on his second one,' said Harry
> grimly..."   And then again, at the end of GoF, Ron and Hermione
> regard Harry almost as if they are afraid of him.  I don't
> necessarily see Hermione as so much more mature than Ron, on either
> of
> these occasions - rather, it is Harry who seems to rise above them
> both.  Of course having seen what he's just seen at the end, that's
>  hardly surprising.
>
> > I am hoping that the events at the end of GoF will hope Ron grow
> > up.
>
> I can't imagine anybody who really loves Harry remaining unaltered at
>  this point.  And since Ron has shown far more friendship than
> fighting toward Harry when all four books are measured, I can't help
> thinking that yes, Ron does love Harry and care about him very much.
>
> ~Arabella
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
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>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Tue Apr 10 20:32:41 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:32:41 +0100
Subject: On using the editing spell
Message-ID: <022201c0c1fd$66304520$ed63063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16305

I love reading everyone's messages ( hey, I'd unsub if not ) but would
everyone please try and edit before they post, pwetty please ?  It's
getting a bit tiresome scrolling through a 12 to 24 KB message only to
find that half if not more is just there because the writer didn't hit
the delete button when replying to a post.

I know that if you're on web based mail or an internet cafe, online time
is precious, but just bear in mind that the bigger the post, the longer
it takes for those of us who download to do so and the longer it takes
to read. Not to mention if you have to switch to digest !!!!! And I
would think that if we're on a list for book lovers, it's quite possible
for us to remember the contents of previous posts without having to see
them regurgitated again and again.

Sorry, Mods, I hope I'm not treading on toes here !!!

Michelle






From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 20:27:16 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:27:16 -0500
Subject: Can We Get Rid of Announcements?
References: <9avkor+4frp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD36CA4.5E5B18D0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16306

Hi --

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> Do we REALLY need the HP4GUPS-Announcements group?  After all, it
> only has 68 messages on it, over the course of a month or two.

Actually, that group was up & running as of March 4th, so it has just
over a month of traffic under its belt.  That averages to about 2
messages a day.  Yes, it's low traffic right now, but then again, not
*everyone* is using it when they should be.  :::clears throat
meaningfully:::

> I would rather skip over posts I am not interested in than
> have to check so many different HP groups.

If you're receiving the messages by email, you can dump the
Announcements posts into their own separate folder.  If you're on
webview & it's low traffic anyway, why not just check it weekly?  Or get
a digest?

> So, whaddya think, folks?  Should we demand that our leaders repeal
> the Send Announcements To Another List Law of 2001?  I say Dump the
> Announcements List!!!!!! Members, unite, and demand your rights to
> fewer HP4GUps lists!!!!

The Moderators are open to suggestions.  However, we prefer to receive
emails directly to *us,* rather than having a free-for-all discussion on
this list.  Please email HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com if you'd
like to comment on this issue that Joy has raised.

Thanks,

Penny
The Moderator Team



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 20:34:49 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:34:49 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
Message-ID: <9avqp9+o64n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16307

Most of the rumour pages out there are saying that Dumbledore will 
die. I guess this would show the full extent of mr V's power (?). 
Dumbledore IS getting older, but is Voldey getting stronger 
(obviously i mean stronger than before lil' Harry got in his way)? I 
would appreciate your thoughts on this... :)
Also, do you think a "dark" character should die at the hands of 
Voldemort? How about Draco? Would his father turn away from the dark 
side (use the force luke! lol!) because of this? or does he love 
Voldemort more? i think this would be a good issue for JK to include. 
Does Lucius love his master and power more than his own son? this 
girl ain't 100%...



look forward to hearing what you think!



claire

**It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enimies, but 
just as much to stand up to our friends**




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 20:38:27 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:38:27 -0000
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F73QHeFXvjQN0h000016fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9avr03+jugr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16308

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > > > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and 
Ron
> >sit
> > > > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a
> >"time
> > > > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers.
> 
> Yes, people handle times of trial differently, but there's another 
dimension 
> as well.  Percy is blaming himself for Ginny's abduction (and, for 
all they 
> know, death) because he feels he, as the oldest brother at 
Hogwarts, has 
> failed to protect her, and is too ashamed to join the others in the 
common 
> room.  In his mind, he has failed his whole family and the school - 
in other 
> words, his whole world.  His self-image as a good brother and 
prefect means 
> a lot to him, and this has been dealt a severe blow.   He feels he 
has 
> nothing to offer the others.  This may not be perfect behaviour, 
but it is 
> understandable, and I feel desperately sorry for him.  I like to 
think 
> Dumbledore had a
> quiet word with him and helped him to see that he couldn't have 
prevented 
> it.
>

I agree with you totally.  I have always felt sorry for Percy.  The 
major problem with him is that he is perfectionist, and, I believe, 
basically insecure, which means he has to over achieve in order to 
live up to his own standards.  He is very proud of his achievements, 
and puts as much energy into his report on cauldron thicknesses as 
his exams and his roles as Prefect/Headboy.  In return, he is 
ridiculed by everyone in his family barr Mrs Weasley (and perhaps, 
less than the others, Ginny) and his boss can't even get his name 
right.  I have always felt that his pomposity has always stemmed from 
this insecurity and perfectionism, with a dash of lack of sense of 
humour for good measure - and this latter element again is probably 
due to wanting to be looked up to, and not made fun of, and he has 
been made fun of all his life.

Because of the perfectionist in him, and his regard for his family 
(which I believe in very strongly) I think that part of the reason he 
shut himself away during CoS is because of self-loathing (he failed 
his family and did not live up to his own exacting standards) and 
because he probably thinks that George, Fred and Ron think the same 
thing.

Therefore, I too, felt desperately sorry for Percy.

Catherine




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 20:40:41 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:40:41 -0000
Subject: Typical Ron
In-Reply-To: <9avoe9+t7ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avr49+9jqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16309

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Um... 14 year old boys actually do this?  At age 14?  Still?
> > > 
> > > Could just be me.  But that really sounds like behavior a kid 2-
5 
> > > years younger would exhibit.
> > > 
> > > Even my thirteen year old boys don't do this.  My fifth graders 
> (ages 
> > > 10-11) would, but most of my girls would sock the crap out of 
> them if 
> > > they tried it.
> > > 
> > 
> > Ebony, Wow!  I'd love to come see your school.  Emotionally 
mature 
> 14 year 
> > old boys?  <vbg>  
> 
> Hey!  I didn't say emotionally mature.  Not by any means.  
> 
> But hair-pulling is "like, *so* fifth grade."
> 
> > And when it comes to typical young male 
> > behavior, I would have to go with Ron's before Harry's. 
> 
> Hmm... why Ron as Typical Boy and not one of the others like Seamus 
> or Dean?  I don't think he's all that typical... which is why he 
> fascinates me.
> 
>  
> > Are Ron's actions/words always the best in a situation?  Probably 
> not.  Are > they abnormal?  I don't think so.  He's just growing 
up.  
> Adolescence is > rough, even if you weren't locked in a cupboard 
for 
> 10 years.
> 
> I agree.  Nothing abnormal about Ron yet.  But... I still say that 
> someone needs to keep an eye on him.
> 
> > Who glances at her husband in front of his PS2 and wonders when 
> he's going to 
> > mature emotionally. <vbg>
> > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> 
> Like us reading Harry Potter as adults?  <vbg>
> 
> There's a bit of kid inside of all of us--no matter what our age, 
no 
> matter what our gender.
> 
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is just getting back into her teenage 
> passions for chess and video games)



im 13, most guys have grown up slightly by 13, but there is stilla an 
element of humiliate the girl you love. what Draco does to Hernione 
is CLASSIC 14 yro guy behaviour....................im pretty 
convinced he has a crush on her..

claire




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 20:56:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:56:20 -0500
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
References: <F1066yL2m9lHiu3fQtY00000dc1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AD37374.B8660E3C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16310

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> First of all, I think his prejudice against giants is negligible--his
> feelings for Hagrid aren't affected in the slightest by his learning
> that he's half-giant, and he shows no qualms about Dumbledore's plans
> to send envoys to the giants.

He makes an *exception* for Hagrid (probably because he's only
half-giant), but IMO he clearly retains the prejudiced attitude toward
giants as a whole.  From Chapter 31 --
________________________________________________-

"And Fudge reckons Madame Maxime attached Crouch?" Ron said, turning
back to Harry.

"Yeah," said Harry, "but he's only saying that because Crouch
disappeared near the BeauxBatons carriage."

"We never thought of her, did we?"  said Ron slowly.  "Mind you, she's
definitely got giant blood, and she doesn't want to admit it ---"

"Of course she doesn't," said Hermione sharply, looking up.  ......"
__________________________________________

Harry dismisses Fudge's assumption on the grounds that it just has to do
with geographic proximity.  Ron, OTOH, is quick to think of her giant
blood in *support* of Fudge's conclusion.  I think Ron also makes an
exception for Lupin, but we never really have cause to know whether he
retains an overall distrust of werewolves, do we?  If it hasn't come up
again, I don't know that it's reasonable to just *assume* that he has
dropped his prejudice against werewolves as a class, especially in light
of the evidence that he has not completely dropped his prejudice against
giants as a class (despite making an exception for Hagrid).  He clearly
retains his general thoughts about house-elves too.

I agree with Ebony --  Growing up in a prejudiced environment is not an
excuse for continued prejudice.  Ron gives me the impression that he
doesn't *get* it.  He's no different than the people who dearly love the
family member who's gay but think it's okay to crack jokes about
homosexuals or make other blanket generalizations about that community.
Some people are able to make exceptions on a personal level but do
retain the overall prejudice against the larger group.  I think Ron
falls into that category.  And, I must say, I really think this spells
trouble for any Ron/Hermione romance that might develop.  It seems like
such a fundamental sticking point that it will cause alot of trouble in
any romance between the two.  I don't imagine Hermione is going to
handle that trait all that well.

Several people have pointed out that Ron is willing to put his
prejudices aside willingly & quickly.  But, thinking to yourself, "Oh,
so & so is a "good" [fill in racial ephithet]; he/she isn't like the
"others" is not abandoning one's overall prejudicial attitude toward a
group.  It's just making individual exceptions.

> On the racism spectrum, Ron is your garden-variety white guy who would
> never say a racist word but doesn't get what black folks are
> complaining about; Draco is a junior member of the KKK.

He has plenty to say about giants -- see above.

> Meanness:  wow, I thought I had a low tolerance for sarcasm, but I
> never
> would have characterized Ron as "mean."  Can someone give some
> specific
> examples, aside from the Yule Ball fight, which I will grant you was a
> mean moment?

1.  His fight with Harry in GoF.  His remarks are rather cutting.
2.  (Paraphrasing as no PoA on desk): "It's too bad Scabbers was just
*eaten,* he really used to love these [whatever the candy/sweet was]."
[And, by the by, this was the same moment when Harry was in the process
of making amends with Hermione!]

I'd have to think more to come up with others.  But, I think he does go
beyond sarcasm with more frequency in the latter 2 books.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 21:08:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:08:20 -0500
Subject: Draco Redemption Evidence
References: <9avnk3+dnad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD37643.E2061712@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16311



Haggridd wrote:

> Heidi said: > 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into their
> compartment on the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. Now,
> if
> Crookshanks has *no* kneazle blood, this is clearly irrelevant, but if
> the car is part kneazle and therefore in posession of "an uncanny
> ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the lack
> of
> > reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious.

> > 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at the
> > World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the way
> > of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by
> canon > evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is.
>
> Hagridd said: Subtle is right!  I would take issue with you that the
> evidence for a budding attraction for Hermione and Ron is less evident
> in the canon.

Well, *I* would take issue with you that there's an attraction *between*
the two of them.  There's as much canon evidence that Hermione likes
*Harry* rather than Ron as there is that she returns Ron's feelings.
:--)  Even all the die-hard shippers of both camps agree on that much.
<g>  This will all be in the Romance FAQ.

> The suppositon that Crookshanks is a kneazle is another example of
> taking an unsupported assumption and building upon it.

:::clears throat:::  Kneazles are in the *canon* (the FB book).  Why is
this assumption *unwarranted*?  It's at least as reasonable as any other
assumptions one might make based solely on canon evidence.  Isn't it?  I
don't get your point Hagridd.

It's fine to say that you don't buy the assumptions that Heidi is making
in her arguments for a possible canon redemption of Draco.  But, she is
using canon evidence after all.  And, I don't think utilizing any canon
evidence at one's disposal can be considered "unwarranted."  It does not
make sense (and isn't fair to those who don't read fanfic) to use fanfic
to support canon arguments, but Heidi didn't do that.  She's using canon
to illustrate a possible set-up for a Draco redemption.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 21:11:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:11:50 -0500
Subject: Announcements list
References: <9avrlf+ch90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD37716.359AD9BD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16312

THANKS!!  Glad to have a positive comment be the first one we received.
:--)

Penny

bbennett at joymail.com wrote:

> I just wanted to let you know that I very much like the new system of
> having OT, announcements, and main messages split into different
> groups - it makes the main list much more enjoyable.
>
> Best,
> B




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 21:24:32 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:24:32 -0500
Subject: Using Fanfic in support of canon arguments
References: <20010410152437.24012.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD37A10.AB05E975@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16313

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Several times I have read that a particular character is
> such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as
> detailed in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section
> of PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction sit
> in terms of discussion of the books?

I don't think anyone is saying "well, such & such happened in fanfic;
therefore, the canon absolutely means such & such."  I think what you're
thinking about is that some people do use fanfic to view canon
situations in a different light.  Draco is a perfect example of this.
There are several "alternative, redeemable" Draco fanfics that are very
popular.  I didn't see much to like in Draco prior to reading those
fics.  Now, I can go back to the *CANON* and look at it differently.  I
can think to myself, "Yeah, I agree with Cassie & Heidi; Draco *could*
be redeemed."  OR, I could say, "Well, those fics are well-done, but I
still don't see the canon evidence all that clearly."

Heidi pointed out to me that she'd found a message from me in the
Archives from way back when in which I clearly said, "Draco/Hermione is
about the *last* pairing likely to happen and here's why."  Now, it's
way preferable to me than Ron/Herm.  Not only is it preferable, but I
can see where it's plausible.  Those authors took their interpretations
of the canon & convinced me to look at it in a different way.  However,
I still must ultimately make the call whether they've ultimately
convinced me of canon evidence for a particular interpretation of a
character or foreshadowing of a certain event.  Fanfic just gives you
the ability to look at a character or sequence of events through the
eyes of another person, and as Carole said, the fictional medium of
fanfic can be more entertaining & expansive than a posting to this
group.  Some fanfics don't persuade me of anything in particular.  When
I read others though, I find myself thinking, "Wow!  That's a really
intriguing take on XXXX; I need to go back & read the books again with
that in mind."

Amanda said:

> I have a lot of fun speculating on the
> canon, and I want my "take" on the flavor and "feel" and well, character
> of the characters to be strictly based on JKR, at least during the
> production of the seven books.
>
I'd like to think I'm still using JKR as the ultimate interpretation,
but fanfic can open you up to other possibilities of where JKR herself
*might* be going with a character or sequence of events -- possibilities
you might not have dreamt up on your own.  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From itai_halevy at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 21:31:41 2001
From: itai_halevy at hotmail.com (itai_halevy at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:31:41 -0000
Subject: Hi, I'm new/ The wizarding community/ Voldemort's rise to power
Message-ID: <9avu3t+k166@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16314

There are several questions that have been troubling me. As almost 
anyone involved in business, management or government agrees, every 
body (and certainly every community) needs a head to govern it. In 
the case of a company or a factory this might be a CEO or a board of 
directors. In the case of a country- a government. Yet the leadership 
of the wizarding community in JKR's HP series is undefined and rather 
vague.
Sure, there's the "Ministry of Magic", but are they a ministry in the 
British government (like the Ministry of Agriculture for example)or 
are they the actual government of wizards?
Suppose they are an actual government, do the laws and restrictions 
apply to British wizards only or to wizards of other nations as well?
(in other words- is the "Ministry" an international body?).
What I'm aiming at is that there doesn't seem to be a person or a 
group of people leading the wizarding community. There's Fudge and 
the ministry- but to me they seem more a beaurocratic body than 
leadership. There's Dumbledore- to whom some look for guidance, but 
he is hardly the recognized leader of wizards worldwide.
I know that the "ministry" has legislative power as well as means of 
enforcement but I feel a lack of a body that decides on policy.

This leads to questions regarding Voldemort's rise to power.
1. Was practice of the Dark Arts outlawed before his rise to power?
2. Were Voldemort and the "Death Eaters" rebels against an existing 
system (by system I mean- laws, values, accepted behaviour, 
hierarchy, morals, etc.) or were they a "faction" or "party" in the 
wizarding community that was slowly gaining support and power (like 
Nazism for example)?
3. If they weren't a legitimate faction- were they all outlaws? I 
don't suppose all of the followers of Voldemort went into hiding at 
the time (some were of very influential families). This raises the 
possibility that Voldemort and some of his outright supporters were 
outlaws in hiding, while most of his followers were "dormant"- living 
ordinary lives and doing the Dark Lord's bidding in secret.
I don't think this was the case- as entire wizarding families were 
known supporters and I find it hard to believe that entire families 
went into hiding.
4. In short- the entire mechanism of Voldemort's rise to power is 
unexplained.


Possible Explanations:

1. The "Ministry" is an international government of wizards and 
witches. Dark magic had always been outlawed (ever since there was an 
acting ministry). Anyone practicing dark magic- does so secretly as 
did Tom Riddle at first.
Tom Riddle broke away from the lawful world, became an outlaw and 
started gaining support among some wizards who may or may not have 
have been dabbling in the dark arts before.
His outright supporters were outlaws. His subtler followers did his 
bidding in secret- never declaring outright support.
At a certain stage the ministry's control had so weakened that some 
of the secret followers became less worried about hiding their 
inclinations to the dark side. (this would have been close to the 
time Voldemort made the attempt on Harry's life and lost his powers-
leaving the newly revealled dark wizards the option of returning to 
the lines of light under various excuses).

2. The dark side legitimately gained support (as does a political 
party), inside the ministry as well. Voldemort was recognized as 
leader of this group.
When support was wide enough and Voldemort felt it was possible to 
seize control of the ministry, him and his followers resorted to 
forceful tactics (assassination, sabotage, ethnic/political 
cleansing, etc.). This would have again been close to his attempt on 
Harry's life (as a part of these "cleansings").


Anyway, I could raise endless questions about the government method 
of the wizarding world and about the possible mechanism of 
Voldemort's rise to power.

Anyone with thoughts and ideas on this matter, please send your 
opinion or possible scenario etc.

Thanks, Itai.   
   




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 10 21:38:12 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:38:12 -0000
Subject: Draco Redemption Evidence
In-Reply-To: <3AD37643.E2061712@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9avug4+fnuk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16315

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > Heidi said: > 1. In all of PoA and GoF, when Draco comes into 
their
> > compartment on the train, Crookshanks never reacts badly to him. 
Now,
> > if
> > Crookshanks has *no* kneazle blood, this is clearly irrelevant, 
but if
> > the car is part kneazle and therefore in posession of "an uncanny
> > ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters..." then the 
lack
> > of
> > > reaction to Draco means he is neither unsavoury or suspicious.
> 
> > > 2. It is *arguable* that when he saw Hermione in the woods at 
the
> > > World Cup, he was actually trying to warn her to get out of the 
way
> > > of the Death Eaters. It's about as arguable and as supported by
> > canon > evidence as any conclusion that Hermione likes Ron is.
> >
> > Hagridd said: Subtle is right!  I would take issue with you that 
the
> > evidence for a budding attraction for Hermione and Ron is less 
evident
> > in the canon.
> 
> Well, *I* would take issue with you that there's an attraction 
*between*
> the two of them.  There's as much canon evidence that Hermione likes
> *Harry* rather than Ron as there is that she returns Ron's feelings.
> :--)  Even all the die-hard shippers of both camps agree on that 
much.
> <g>  This will all be in the Romance FAQ.
> 
> > The suppositon that Crookshanks is a kneazle is another example of
> > taking an unsupported assumption and building upon it.
> 
> :::clears throat:::  Kneazles are in the *canon* (the FB book). 
Why 
is
> this assumption *unwarranted*?  It's at least as reasonable as any 
other
> assumptions one might make based solely on canon evidence.  Isn't 
it?  I
> don't get your point Hagridd.
> 
> It's fine to say that you don't buy the assumptions that Heidi is 
making
> in her arguments for a possible canon redemption of Draco.  But,
she 
is
> using canon evidence after all.  And, I don't think utilizing any 
canon
> evidence at one's disposal can be considered "unwarranted."  It
does 
not
> make sense (and isn't fair to those who don't read fanfic) to use 
fanfic
> to support canon arguments, but Heidi didn't do that.  She's using 
canon
> to illustrate a possible set-up for a Draco redemption.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I take your point, Penny; it is a good one, but the mere existence of 
a beast like the kneazle is not sufficient.  There should be some 
textual "hook" upon which to hang your inspiration.  Why not then say 
that Draco is the illegitimate son of Snape and Narcissa Malfoy. 
Both persons are "in the canon"; Snape is a wizard, Narcissa is a 
witch; Snape favors Draco, but there is nothing even to hint that it 
might have happened.  I am not attacking Heidi.  I thinks she engaged 
in a very plausible and inspired bit of speculation; but the text 
doesn't support it, even obliquely.  I have similar pet ideas:  e.g., 
I think that Fred & George will become Unspeakables, and run the Joke 
Shoppe as a front. I don't claim that JKR has given any foreshadowing 
that this will transpire.

Haggridd




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 21:45:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:45:19 -0500
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry
References: <9avdvr+2mjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD37EEF.EB3A4B96@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16316

Hi --

Demelza wrote:

> As for jealousy of Harry, I'm hard pressed to find anything in the
> books to indicate he is jealous of HARRY,

"[Ron] was always touchy about the fact that Harry, who had inherited a
small fortune from his parents, had much more money than he did."  [GoF,
Chapter 7]

Look at the conversation between Harry & Hermione in GoF, Chapter 18,
re: Ron's jealousy.  Hermione explains it quite well, and Harry doesn't
deny it.  Hermione herself says that Ron keeps it to himself for the
most part, but *it is there.*   She and Harry both know it.  Harry
doesn't dispute her thoughts on this.

"Must be nice .... to have so much money you don't notice if a pocketful
of Galleons goes missing." [GoF, Chapter 28]

> <snip all the incidents of Ron's bravery/self-sacrifice> Those aren't
> the actions of a jealous person.

Well, I don't think anyone would argue that he walks around displaying
nothing but jealousy all the time.  But, he can still be brave &
self-sacrificing in times of danger but *also* be jealous of Harry.

> When Harry's name pops out of the Goblet, Ron is
> surprized. But think about it, Harry has included Ron in all of his
> escapades. Why should Harry leave him out now? Ron's been a loyal
> friend. Ron's been supportive of Harry. Ron has risked his life for
> Harry. Yet, he thinks his best friend has left him out of the loop.
> I've seen real-life relationships disintegrate for similar
> reasons--lack of communication, misunderstanding and foolish pride.
> But Hermione interprets this as "jealousy" of Harry's fame???

Yeah.  This doesn't seem irrational to me.  It's certainly not regarded
as irrational to either Hermione or Harry (see above).  Harry doesn't
look at Hermione and say, "What?  Jealous?  How'd you get *that*?"  He
says, "Great.  Really great.  Tell him from me I'll swap anytime he
wants. .... I'm not running around after him trying to make him grow
up!  Maybe he'll believe I'm not enjoying myself once I've got my neck
broken or --"

Hermione saw how shocked & scared Harry was.  *She* was perceptive
enough to pick up on this.  Ron, however, did not.  He leapt to the
conclusion that Harry had put his name into the Goblet, had found a way
to circumvent the age-line & had left him out of it.  There's that
leaping to conclusions again.  Why would Ron not be able to see the same
reactions on Harry's face that Hermione did?  If it's not because he
leapt to conclusions (out of jealousy or impulsiveness), then *what* was
the reason?

> Her near pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a cry
> for
> attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of
> Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder)

I saw that Heidi addressed this already.  I agree completely that
Hermione displays no signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.  Why is her
desire to achieve academically a bad thing?

> But her studying and academic success is not met with overt admiration
> of her peers. She is considered a 'bossy know it all' but her
> classmates and at least one teacher, Snape.

She's alot less of a bossy know-it-all by GoF.  She's done alot of
maturing.  IMO

> He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.

Um .... yes & no.  He was silent & hardly able to do more than heave
himself into the car.  I don't know that it's fair to say that he truly
confronted & overcame his fears.

> The only way I think I can objectively dissect and analyse the
> characters is to examine their actions within the context of the
> chapter(s) as they take place. I think using the final outcome to
> interpret their actions in earlier chapters (or in earlier books)
> gives a somewhat tainted analysis of their actions 'in situ'.

I don't get your point here, Demelza.  You have to look at overall
context to interpret their actions (and you do that I might add).  :--)
Aren't you using the final outcome in the books to support your
conclusion that Ron is not jealous of Harry (citing the chess game, the
Aragog incident & when he stands up to Sirius in PoA to support the
notion that Ron is not a jealous person)?  It seems to me that you're
ignoring some of the other incidents that clearly point that Ron is
jealous of Harry and pointing to the big picture to say, "No, he can't
be because ...."  Am I missing something?

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 10 21:53:12 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:53:12 -0000
Subject: Kneazle (was  Draco Redemption Evidence)
In-Reply-To: <9avug4+fnuk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avvc8+ql1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16317

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Haggridd wrote:
> > > The suppositon that Crookshanks is a kneazle is another example 
of
> > > taking an unsupported assumption and building upon it.
> > 
> > :::clears throat:::  Kneazles are in the *canon* (the FB book). 
> Why 
> is
> > this assumption *unwarranted*?  It's at least as reasonable as 
any 
> other
> > assumptions one might make based solely on canon evidence.  Isn't 
> it?  I
> > don't get your point Hagridd.
> I take your point, Penny; it is a good one, but the mere existence 
of 
> a beast like the kneazle is not sufficient.  There should be some 
> textual "hook" upon which to hang your inspiration.  

Okay, fine,  you want a textual hook? You got it:
1. Kneazles are catlike creatures - FB p. 24
2. Kneazles have lion-like tails - FB p. 24. 
3. Crookshanks has a bottle brush tail - - PoA (don't have a page 
ref).
4. Kneazles can interbreed with cats - FB p. 25
5. Sirius says that Crookshanks is "the most intelligent of his kind 
I've ever met. He recognized Peter for what he was right away." PoA 
US 364 (of course, on the same page, he also calls him a cat, but 
this *may* be a hint that he's not a pure-cat but a mixed creature)
6. Crookshanks *hates* Scabbers/Peter and tries numerous times to 
bring the rat to Sirius, which *likely* indicates something more than 
wanting to capture the rat to eat it - it indicates a recognition 
that said rat is an unsavoury or suspicious character, which is a 
Kneazle ability. 

Is this enough of a hint that Crookshanks is part kneazle? I'm 
certainly not the only person to suggest this on the list - it's been 
mentioned in at least 30 posts since FB came out almost a month ago. 


> Why not then say 
> that Draco is the illegitimate son of Snape and Narcissa Malfoy. 
> Both persons are "in the canon"; Snape is a wizard, Narcissa is a 
> witch; Snape favors Draco, but there is nothing even to hint that 
it 
> might have happened.  
There is a very large difference between taking facts out of canon, 
which includes the two schoolbooks, and creating random matchings, 
although we love to do that in chats on sundays too, don't we? If you 
only want straight canon, then there's no point in discussing any of 
the nuances in JKR's choice of words in the books ever, is there? 
There's no joy in looking into the subtext if you can't make a 
logical conclusion therefrom.


> I am not attacking Heidi.  I thinks she engaged 
> in a very plausible and inspired bit of speculation; but the text 
> doesn't support it, even obliquely.  
Yes, it does. See above. 
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this, but a thorough 
reading of both FB & QTTA gives so many delightful tidbits of 
information about the four novels that it's hard to toss them into 
the slipstream. 




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Tue Apr 10 21:54:37 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:54:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary: Priori Incantatem - Brother Wands
In-Reply-To: <99ndkb+1v0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9avvet+c8r8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16318

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > 3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of 
> > dueling "brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one 
> > to start regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem 
effect?
> 
>  ***
> > I think since they both have feathers from a Phoenix, and the 
> > Phoenix's song was in Harry's head, it was helping him and not 
> > Voldemort. And an aside ... I wonder what Dumbledore, Sirius, 
> > Snape, and Lupin's wands are made of? And if this has anything to 
> > do with the OoP?
> 
> More thoughts:
> 
> Harry has already showed an affinity for the Phoenix.  Dumbledore 
> told him in CoS that Harry must be (I know this isn't verbatim 
> phrased) very pure of heart to have summoned Fawkes.  
> 
> We know the Big V's affinity is for Snakes, even though Harry is a 
> parselmouth.
> 
> Advantage: Harry.
> 
> Then there's also the fact that Harry's young, hale, heaarty, and 
has 
> been well cared-for, vs. the fact that the Big V was only just now 
> returning to his former level of power and thusly was not at full 
> strength when he challenged Harry to the duel.  Voldemort was 
> potentially overconfident because Harry's blood permitted him to 
> safely touch Harry now.  
> 
> Advantage: Harry.  
> 
> There could also be the possiblity  that since the wands are made 
of 
> two different woods, there are two different power-levels with 
regard 
> to the interaction of the wood with the phoenix feather, and 
> responses to its brother feather in another wand of a different 
wood. 
> 
> I'd like to think it's an simply indication of Harry's strong will, 
> that he caused Priori Incantatem, rather than the other way around, 
> but I just like to see the good guys win.
> 
> Indigo





kinda boring priori incantatem if it was harrys wand! what we got?


spider fighting i guess....
stupefy
expelliaramus
stupefy
impedimenta
stupefy



nowhere near as exiting as mr v's....




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 10 21:59:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:59:13 -0500
Subject: The Youngest and Most Impressive WeasleyMan
References: <20010410055840.6801.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD38231.76FFC587@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16319

Hi --

Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee wrote:

> I must preface this entire post by saying that, when I turned my HP daily calendar and saw a picture of Ron on todays date, I actually jumped up and down at my desk. (My boss laughed at me.) So, that will tell you how I feel about "the youngest and most impressive Weasley man."

Can I ask (ever so politely): How is it that Ron (who, the last time I checked was still an adolescent boy and not a man) qualifies as the "most impressive" of the Weasley males?

Maybe it's just me, but I'd give the nod to Bill or Percy.  I had to say Percy, because he is my favorite Weasley I think.  But, Bill seems objectively the "most impressive" -- IMO.  He's an achiever -- Head Boy, good grades apparently, well-liked, good job & upward mobility presumably.  From appearances, I would say Bill is the whole package.  Percy seems to have the negative traits associated with the eldest child -- obsessive desire to over-achieve & all that.  Bill seems to have achieved but without killing himself -- and clearly has good people skills.  In a word, Bill is just *cool*!

Ron though?  Aside from the fact that he's not yet a "fully-formed human" as my husband likes to say when referring to adolescents -- why is he "most impressive"?  Color me curious ....

> Heidi:
>
> >But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron has a mean streak sometimes.
>
> And I think Harry has a mean streak sometimes. Only Harry does just come out and say it. He gets quiet and passive-aggressive about it. He doesnt fight with Hermione in PoA, oh no, he just lets the fight go on and doesnt do anything about it (until its convenient, and then he halfheartedly tries to patch things up). Rons no meaner than Harry; hes just more honest about his feelings.

Oh?

1.  In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up with Hermione.  I don't know where you get half-heartedly out of the language in that scene.  He approaches her on his own & quietly sets about trying to make up with her.  Ron interrupts that with his loud & mean-spirited comment about Scabbers.

2.  In GoF, he tries to avert the Ron/Hermione fight at the Yule Ball.  "Ron, I haven't got a problem with Hermione coming with Krum --"  But Ron ignored him.  ..... Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger & satisfaction on his face.  *Satisfaction.*  He enjoyed reducing her to tears.

Penny




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Tue Apr 10 22:06:27 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:06:27 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
In-Reply-To: <3AD37374.B8660E3C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b0053+ivhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16320


> "We never thought of her, did we?"  said Ron slowly.  "Mind you, 
she's
> definitely got giant blood, and she doesn't want to admit it ---"
> 
> "Of course she doesn't," said Hermione sharply, looking up.  ......"
> __________________________________________
> 
> Harry dismisses Fudge's assumption on the grounds that it just has 
to do
> with geographic proximity.  Ron, OTOH, is quick to think of her 
giant
> blood in *support* of Fudge's conclusion.  


That's definitely one way to look at it.  Another way is to take into 
consideration that Ron has spent the better part of the last quarter 
of GoF proposing solutions to problems off the top of his head - many 
of which aren't top-notch solutions - just for the sake of having 
something to propose, something to offer.  This is seen again and 
again with his continual (albeit impossible) suggestions of
Apparation 
on Hogwarts grounds.  Also, in recent proximity to his comment about 
Madame Maxime, Ron answers Moody with "Yeah, someone could've - 
could've pulled him onto a broom and flown off with him, couldn't 
they?" because "he too wanted to be told that he had the makings of
an 
Auror."  It's my opinion that Ron's sort of grasping at straws in 
order to be of help, at this point.  

However, let's imagine that you're 100% right, and his first reaction 
is one of prejudice.  You've stated, 

> I agree with Ebony --  Growing up in a prejudiced environment is
not 
> an excuse for continued prejudice.  Ron gives me the impression
that 
> he doesn't *get* it.  

Okay.  Well, first of all, don't we all grow up in a prejudiced 
environment, to some extent or another?  All of us are products of
our 
social origins in some respects and we all bear the marks of those 
influences.  I think you're being very hard on Ron, to give him no 
chance to grow out of this after the age of 15.  He's just starting
to 
become aware of these ideas on a different level.  These ideas 
have always been a given, to him.  It's just understood that 
giants are vicious, it's just understood that you stay away from 
werewolves, it's just understood that house-elves are 
house-elves.  No, of COURSE that's not a good thing, but is Ron 
Weasley, age 15, responsible for the foundation of these 
prejudices?  No.  He's a young man who grew up among them.  That 
is all.  Does this excuse him, if he grows to be an adult who 
holds these prejudices as truth?  No.  But is he an adult yet; is he 
fully formed and sealed in stone with no room for change?  No, 
IMO. He's starting to bring up these ideas, to examine them ("Harry 
and Ron spent the rest of the ball discussing giants in their 
corner...") Awareness and examination are the first steps toward Ron 
broadening his perspective. These general wizarding community ideas 
about giants, werewolves and etc. have been around him and in his 
psyche all his life - but much like his inability at present to say 
Voldemort's name, I think these prejudices have ample opportunity to 
change. The deal is far from sealed on Ron Weasley and his thought 
process..  IMO.  

>And, I must say, I really think this spells trouble for any 
> Ron/Hermione romance that might develop.  It seems like
> such a fundamental sticking point that it will cause alot of
trouble 
> in any romance between the two.  I don't imagine Hermione is going 
> to handle that trait all that well.

She already doesn't.  She doesn't tolerate it one single bit, and I 
love her for it.  And I'll betcha (I admit I'm guessing, but I'm a 
hopeful guesser)that she's going to rub off on Ron, whether he likes 
it or not.  It's great for him, to be so close to two people who do 
not have the disadvantage of natural wizarding prejudices to deal 
with.  They show him a perspective he wouldn't otherwise have had,
and 
he can't help but pick up on it, really.  IMO.  And if he hasn't
shown 
major, sweeping signs of doing this yet... well, there's nothing I
can 
do here but wait for book five and cross my fingers and hope for the 
best. 
 
> > Can someone give some
> > specific
> > examples, aside from the Yule Ball fight, which I will grant you 
was a
> > mean moment?
> 
> 1.  His fight with Harry in GoF.  His remarks are rather cutting.

Boy, aren't they?  It's absolutely painful to read and breaks my 
heart every time.  It's painful to read Harry's remarks though, too, 
with his "I'm not running around after him trying to make him grow 
up!" and his common room badge-chucking - and it's hard to side with 
Harry when he wants to give Ron a good hard poke in the back of the 
head, in the Three Broomsticks.  Though I admit, I wouldn't say no to 
giving Ron a good hard poke in the back of the head once in awhile, 
too. <g> 

> 2.  (Paraphrasing as no PoA on desk): "It's too bad Scabbers was 
just
> *eaten,* he really used to love these [whatever the candy/sweet 
was]."
> [And, by the by, this was the same moment when Harry was in the 
process
> of making amends with Hermione!]

Yes, that was a deliberately aimed slight.  Absolutely.  He misses
his 
pet.  She won't say she's sorry.  There's no evidence that it wasn't 
Crookshanks.  There is evidence that it was.  And Harry's only making 
it up to her now because he's got his Firebolt back.  IMO. 

~Arabella




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Apr 10 22:07:45 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:07:45 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, Harry
In-Reply-To: <3AD37374.B8660E3C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b007h+8dj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16321

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
 
> Several people have pointed out that Ron is willing to put his
prejudices aside willingly & quickly.  But, thinking to 
yourself, "Oh, so & so is a "good" [fill in racial ephithet]; he/she 
isn't like the "others" is not abandoning one's overall prejudicial 
attitude toward a group.  It's just making individual exceptions.>

But isn't this how one learns to put aside prejudices - by 
recognizing exceptions on an individual level and moving on from 
there? 

I also don't think that Ron's ideas about house elfs 
can really be discussed without mentioning Harry, who certainly 
sided with Ron over Hermione on the issue (albeit passively), and is 
every bit as disinterested in S.P.E.W. as Ron. If Ron's prejudices 
can't be forgiven, then should we also condemn Harry for his 
passive acceptance of house elf enslavement?

B <sigh> - working late again





From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Apr 10 22:13:08 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:13:08 -0000
Subject: Kneazle
In-Reply-To: <9avvc8+ql1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b00hk+u54b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16322

re: is Crookshanks part Kneazle?

Here's another thing to consider when we pull the FB and QA info into 
the mix: JKR said that one of the reasons she loved writing them was 
because she has SO much information created/invented/worked out and 
it was impossible to put it all in the books. She loved having the 
opportunity to flesh things out this way. 

With that in mind, why do you think she created the Kneazle and put 
it in the FB? She has dropped quite a few hints (see Penny's post for 
details) in PA and GF that Crookshanks is Not Your Average Cat (like 
there is such a thing as an "average cat"...). Then she puts this 
lovely creature in FB that perfectly fits the bill. I think it's 
extremely likely that she is using FB to fill in some of the 
background on Crookshanks. Is it for sure? No. But it's very, very 
likely. It fits the character and including it in FB fits JKR's 
statements. 

I will be putting this information in the Lexicon as almost for 
certain, just like I put James in Gryffindor because of JKR's 
reaction to the question in that one interview. Proven? No. But 
extremely likely.

And I am about as big a stickler for canon as you'll find anywhere.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 23:16:27 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:16:27 -0000
Subject: Hi, I'm new/ The wizarding community/ Voldemort's rise to power
In-Reply-To: <9avu3t+k166@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b048b+10t13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16323

Welcome, Itai!  Please make yourself at home...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., itai_halevy at h... wrote:
> Sure, there's the "Ministry of Magic", but are they a ministry in 
the 
> British government (like the Ministry of Agriculture for example)or 
> are they the actual government of wizards?


I'm no expert at all on this, being American.  But when I first read 
this series, I supposed that the MoM *was* actually a secret branch 
of the British government, and all wizards and witches with UK 
citizenship or equivalent were "subjects of the Queen".

However, there's been some discussion here already about there being 
differences between magical and Muggle borders.  For instance, we 
know that Hogwarts is the school for magical kids in the UK.  But 
Seamus Finnegan is Irish--he attends Hogwarts... and at the Quidditch 
World Cup, the British Minister of Magic seems to be the counterpart 
to the Bulgarian MoM.  In the Muggle world, things are a bit 
different. 

Brixperts, please don't yell at me if I'm wrong.  I suppose I'm 
responding to this because this is something I'd like to know too.

> Suppose they are an actual government, do the laws and restrictions 
> apply to British wizards only or to wizards of other nations as 
well? (in other words- is the "Ministry" an international body?).

There is mention of an International Confederation of Wizards in 
GoF.  However, my guess would be that this organization functions as 
something like a wizarding U.N...

There's a FAQ upcoming that should summarize our archived discussions 
on this matter.  It's called "Wizarding World and Government".  
Meanwhile, I'd love to continue this discussion onlist, over at 
OTChatter, or offlist... speculating about all those faces at the 
Quidditch World Cup and what kinds of governments/schools/lives they 
might have is great fun IMO.

Again, welcome, Itai!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (resident rabblerouser)




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr 10 23:24:48 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:24:48 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <3AD37374.B8660E3C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b04o0+dm7a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16324

Hi!

Since I last posted on this topic, so many excellent points have been 
made that I feel the need to refine my position a bit.  So here goes:

I was the one who said:  "The boy can't admit he's wrong to save his 
life."  Several people argued back that Harry and Hermione come in 
for their share of this besetting sin.  Which is true.  In my attempt 
to focus solely on Ron this might not have been clear.  And, after 
all, it isn't a very rare failing is it?  I have it myself.  :)

So--

Re the Crookshanks War:  Penny's helped me out on this one a bit, but 
I'll draw the trajectory of the fight and pull out of it what shows 
up.  At the start, Ron gets angry with Hermione for buying 
Crookshanks and then taking an arguably cavalier attitude about its 
danger to Scabbers.  His frustration mounts as he watches her dismiss 
his concerns ("Don't mind Hermione, Lavender; she doesn't think other 
people's pets matter very much"); and he is aghast that she would 
rather think the best of her pet than help him protect his.  There's 
the Big Fight, the silence, the rediscovery of Scabbers, with the 
result that Hermione and Ron are both right:  C. is not evil, and C. 
is after Scabbers.  No one could have predicted this outcome, so both 
Ron's and Hermione's jumbly thoughts and feelings can be excused to 
some extent.

To some extent.  Ron's *anger* might be justified, but his 
*vindictiveness*?  After the Big Fight, it is no longer merely an 
issue of Hermione's cavalier attitude; Ron is now on a mission to 
punish her by suspending his friendship ("Can't you give her a 
break?" "No.  If she'd just say she's sorry...but she'll never admit 
she's wrong, Hermione...").  In my experience, one is most infuriated 
by the vices of others that one happens to share the most.  

Further, note that when Hagrid chides Harry and Ron, they both squirm 
but IIRC Ron doesn't do anything about it.  When the Firebolt turns 
out to be fine, Ron says, "See, Hermione?  There wasn't anything 
wrong with it!" effectively denying that she had a right to worry.  
When, toward the end of PoA, Hermione bursts into tears and throws 
her arms around him--"Oh Ron, I'm really, really sorry about Scabbers-
-"...he says, "Oh, well, he was old.  And he was a bit useless.  You 
never know, Mum and Dad might get me an owl now."  As a piece of 
fumbling magnanimity this speech is okay and even a little cute, but 
as a substitute for saying, "It's okay, Hermione.  And I'm sorry I 
threatened our friendship over it"--it doesn't wash.

The point is that, all the vicissitudes of his angers aside, Ron 
recoils from *saying* the words he ought to.  There's no excuse for 
anybody for not admitting outright that they are wrong when they know 
the truth--the difficulty of it notwithstanding.

OTOH, Ron's using Crookshanks as a litmus for his new owl is a very 
graceful non-verbal way of acknowledging Hermione's insistence that 
Crookshanks isn't evil.  Thanks to whoever pointed this out.  I'm 
very proud of Ron in this scene.  

Re the Fight With Harry:  There's no way to argue that Harry didn't 
do his part to make the fight a misery to them both.  I know after 
the fireside scene I was saying under my breath, "Geez, Harry, go 
easy, huh?"  When Harry "lay fuming...for a long time and didn't hear 
[Ron] come up to bed," we are left to imagine how miserable Ron is, 
down there in the empty common room.  

Then because of the fight, Ron doesn't know what's coming in the 
first task, so the sight of those dragons must have been a pretty 
potent cure for his case of envy.  

It's pretty clear, even by looking solely through Ron's point of 
view, that Harry and Ron have *both* something to answer for 
concerning their protracted fight.  But I stand by what I said before 
especially about the aftermath:  Ron's anxious, after the nervous 
reconciliation, to recoup his self-esteem, so he scorns Hermione for 
her realism--a pretty handy defense which he's made use of before.  
And IMO he spends the rest of the book trying to live it all down.  

Ron seems through these last two books to be making half-formed 
attempts to take the mature course.  It's not as if he can't be 
*shown* that he ought to--apologize, give someone his/her due, 
whatever.  But his successes at bringing it off are often abortive 
and colored with his thirst to get himself justified again as quickly 
as possible.  Like I said, these things really infuriate me about 
Ron, but at the same time they make me ready anytime anywhere to play 
the fight song when he even halfway gets it right.

Speaking of, I wonder if the Houses have fight songs?

Lisa




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 11 00:02:23 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:02:23 -0000
Subject: Ron's money problems (was Re: Ron Week: More Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9avmc9+8cb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b06uf+35q6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16325

I wrote > > [And as an aside--why *are* the Weasleys still so broke? 
By GoF, 
> > they've got three of the kids working 
> 
and Indigo wrote: Three? I thought Bill and Charlie were the only 
ones with jobs? Am I 
> confused, missing something? 

You must be forgetting our dear Percy, who's graduated and now works 
at the ministry. But I'm nearly sure that cauldron-bottom scene near 
the beginning of GoF implies that he's still living at home. 

~Rosmerta





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 00:05:03 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:05:03 -0000
Subject: Announcements list
In-Reply-To: <3AD37716.359AD9BD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b073f+92cq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16326

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> THANKS!!  Glad to have a positive comment be the first one we 
received.
> :--)
> 
> Penny
> 
> bbennett at j... wrote:
> 
> > I just wanted to let you know that I very much like the new system 
of
> > having OT, announcements, and main messages split into different
> > groups - it makes the main list much more enjoyable.
> >
> > Best,
> > B

It sounds like a good system.  In order to limit the amount of 
unnecessary hits on the announcement site, would you consider simply 
placing a message on the main board alerting us to the presence of a 
new announcement?

Haggridd




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 00:35:10 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:35:10 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's stubbornness
Message-ID: <LAW2-F598r6beUzmRf600001cc3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16327

Lisa wrote:
>I was the one who said:  "The boy can't admit he's wrong to save his
>life." <snip> And, after
>all, it isn't a very rare failing is it?  I have it myself.  :)

I really like this posting as it brings out a major role of Ron - to share 
our human failings.  We can't be sure *we* would always behave as well as 
Harry, but we can hope we would do at least as well as Ron. After all, who 
*hasn't*, at *some* time in their lives, made someone they loved miserable 
because they are miserable themselves, and taken a miserable satisfaction in 
it?  If Hermione can forgive him, I can.  Incidentally, Harry's comment that 
*he* doesn't have a problem with Hermione's bringing Krum to the Ball is one 
of my cherished funny moments - Harry is *so* missing the point!

Lisa also wrote:
>When, toward the end of PoA, Hermione bursts into tears and throws
>her arms around him--"Oh Ron, I'm really, really sorry about Scabbers-
>-"...he says, "Oh, well, he was old.  And he was a bit useless.  You
>never know, Mum and Dad might get me an owl now."  As a piece of
>fumbling magnanimity this speech is okay and even a little cute, but
>as a substitute for saying, "It's okay, Hermione.  And I'm sorry I
>threatened our friendship over it"--it doesn't wash.

I suppose that *is* what he should say, but most 14 year old English boys 
(and some older ones!) would rather have their guts drawn out by a windlass 
than say something like that.  He is described in the same scene as "looking 
quite terrified" at Hermione's emotional outburst - now that does ring true 
*g*!  Harping on about cultural differences again, but I feel most of the 
characters are going to get a raw deal if judged by American standards of 
emotional openness, admirable as those are :).
>
Like I said, these things really infuriate me about
>Ron, but at the same time they make me ready anytime anywhere to play
>the fight song when he even halfway gets it right.
>
>Speaking of, I wonder if the Houses have fight songs?
>
>Lisa
>
I *love* this! That's what friends are for.  What's a fight song?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 00:59:14 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:59:14 -0000
Subject: [Ron's Jealousy] and Phobias
In-Reply-To: <3AD37EEF.EB3A4B96@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b0a92+f166@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16328

> > <snip all the incidents of Ron's bravery/self-sacrifice> Those 
aren't
> > the actions of a jealous person.
> 
> Well, I don't think anyone would argue that he walks around 
displaying
> nothing but jealousy all the time.  But, he can still be brave &
> self-sacrificing in times of danger but *also* be jealous of Harry.

Yes.  This is so true - conflicting character traits can exist, there 
can be inner struggle; it's so real and so compelling to see a well-
written character like Ron, who has so many of the same natural 
insecurities the rest of us have (well, I don't want to assume for 
others - but *I've* certainly been jealous and know the feeling 
well), work to come to terms with himself so that he can continue to 
be a help to his friends.  This ability for two seemingly contrasting 
traits (jealousy and loyalty) to exist within a person is exactly why 
I think it's also possible for Ron to be continually loyal to Harry 
as the books develop. It's natural to wish things.  It's natural to 
want what one hasn't got.  But Ron hasn't sold Harry out so far - and 
he's had a chance to get a lot of that jealousy out in the air at 
this point.  It's not a secret now, which I think is really 
interesting.

> Hermione saw how shocked & scared Harry was.  *She* was perceptive
> enough to pick up on this.  Ron, however, did not.  He leapt to the
> conclusion that Harry had put his name into the Goblet, had found a 
way
> to circumvent the age-line & had left him out of it.  There's that
> leaping to conclusions again.  Why would Ron not be able to see the 
same
> reactions on Harry's face that Hermione did?  If it's not because he
> leapt to conclusions (out of jealousy or impulsiveness), then 
*what* was
> the reason?

Oh, IMO it was absolutely the impulsiveness of jealousy.  But I don't 
think we have to hold this over Ron (and over him and over him and 
over him), especially because he makes an effort to fight this 
tendency soon after the fight.  He works hard to keep his bitterness 
at bay when girls are throwing themselves at Champion Harry's head 
before the Yule Ball.  I know I cited that in another post, but I 
think it's a telling step forward.  He's trying, isn't he?  Not to 
mention the fact that he's clearly not proud of his actions which led 
to the fight. ("'I noticed it when I was hanging around with them - 
when - you know -'  'We weren't talking,' Harry finished the sentence 
for him." GoF Chapter 29) Ron is clearly uncomfortable with his 
previous behavior and I see this moment as another hint toward a 
changing and maturing Ron.  A Ron who is taking things into 
consideration and making an effort. 
 
> > He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.
> 
> Um .... yes & no.  He was silent & hardly able to do more than heave
> himself into the car.  I don't know that it's fair to say that he 
truly
> confronted & overcame his fears.

I have a real problem with spiders.  I'd say the mere fact that 
highly phobic Ron followed a streaming line of them into the 
Forbidden Forest, in the dark, not knowing what kind of craziness he 
was going to encounter, says an awful lot about his ability to 
confront and overcome his fears.  Yeah, he was silent, yeah, he 
jumped in that car - I seem to remember Harry jumping in there too... 
let me check... yeah.  Oh, and when Harry yells for Ron to get Fang, 
he's present enough to do so - "Ron seized the boarhound around the 
middle and threw him, yelping, into the back of the car..."  So he 
managed a care outside of his fear at a pretty terrible moment.  And 
if that doesn't say enough, then perhaps a better example is in PoA, 
when, in Lupin's Defense class, Ron bravely battles the boggart-
Acromantula. He freezes, then raises his wand and gets over it.  

So yes.  I agree Ron's got a jealous streak, I'm not blind to the 
Ronness of Ron. I just don't think his jealousy is terminal to 
anybody, and I don't think it precludes any kind of betrayal.  I 
think it's part of him, and that he's growing up, and that it makes 
this whole adventure more complex and interesting, that there is even 
a little bit of room left in which to doubt the hero's best friend.  
*I* don't doubt him. <g> But it's exciting that there's room for it, 
for other readers.  Go JKR, way to twist us up. 




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 11 01:47:47 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:47:47 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry
In-Reply-To: <3AD37EEF.EB3A4B96@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b0d43+c0qb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16331

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
> 
> > Her near pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a 
cry
> > for
> > attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of
> > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder)
> 
> I saw that Heidi addressed this already.  I agree completely that
> Hermione displays no signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.  Why is 
her
> desire to achieve academically a bad thing?
> 

I work for a medical group. The psychiatrist in the group is a fan. 
Anyhow,we were discussing Hermione about a month or two ago. He is of 
the opinion that Hermione is obsessive and compulsive about her 
studies. But he can't diagnose her with OCD, because her behaviors 
don't interfere with her daily functioning. However, she can be 
diagnosed with "Personality Disorder, NOS" (NOS = 'not otherwise 
specified'). It doesn't mean she's a bad person or even that she's 
mentally ill. It just means that she has a personality trait that is 
more apparent in her than in other people. Everyone has varying 
degrees of obsessive and compulsive behavior. It's only when it gets 
to either extreme that it becomes pathologic. I've got to admit, 
studying material that you know by heart over and over and over again, 
seems a little extreme.
 

> > The only way I think I can objectively dissect and analyse the
> > characters is to examine their actions within the context of the
> > chapter(s) as they take place. I think using the final outcome to
> > interpret their actions in earlier chapters (or in earlier books)
> > gives a somewhat tainted analysis of their actions 'in situ'.
> 

I briefly did medical chart reviews for extra income, so I have an 
inkling of how Demelza is analysing the characters. In medical chart 
review, ideally you're supposed to review the chart as though the 
events were unfolding in front of you in order to determine the 
appropriateness of the care delivered; meaning that 
appropriate/rational steps were taken at each step. Then you look at 
the discharge diagnosis and the determine whether or not the care was 
reasonable/appropriate. You're not supposed to look at the discharge 
diagnosis and use that to determine the appropriateness of the care 
delivered (most insurance companies and HMOs do it this way so they 
can save money, which is why I don't do med chart reviews anymore.) 
Reviewing the chart that way taints its analysis, because it doesn't 
take into consideration the alternate scenarios the care giver had to 
consider to make the diagnosis. Doing it this way, you can always make 
the case why the delivered care was inappropriate (like I said, it 
saves lots of money for the company!). But if you review it the ideal 
way, the care (unless they really, really, totally screwed up) can be 
almost always justified because you get a clearer picture of what the 
care givers were facing and why they acted accordingly (the company 
must reimburse and therefore lose money). The ideal way of reviewing, 
where the chart is examined without pre-conceived notions and as 
though the events are unfolding before you, is actually fair, because 
it takes the "maybes", "what ifs", and "supposes" into consideration 
and makes you think "was this reasonable with the information known at 
this point in time".  Like I said, this method doesn't save money.

I think this is how Demelza is analysing the characters, using the 
known information that the point in time of the chapter of an 
incidence, then looking at the conclusions being drawn from it and 
seeing if the material supports those conclusions. 

I "chart reviewed" Ginny recently and I have a completely different 
and more favorable impression of her now.

:-)Milz (who profusely apologizes for the medical examples and for 
tainting this forum with dirty words like "insurance companies", 
"HMOs", "care givers", "reimburse") 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Apr 11 01:53:17 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:53:17 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor Fight Song (filk)
Message-ID: <9b0ded+8eff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16332

Cheer, cheer for Old Gryffindor
a filk by Pippin, to the tune of the Notre Dame Fight Song

Cheer, cheer for Old Gryffindor
 Wake up the House Elves cheering for more,
Catch the Golden Snitch on high,
Cheer down the Bludgers from the sky,
 What tho the odds be great or small
 Gryffindor Lions will win over all,
While our loyal Seeker's flying Onward to Victory.

(Fight songs are an American college football tradition. Each team has 
one. At games they are played by marching bands and sung by the fans.  
I agree that Gryffindor should have one, although as I understand it 
there are no such things as Quidditch cheerleaders.)





From linman6868 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 01:55:37 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:55:37 -0000
Subject: Griffindor Fight Song (filk)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F598r6beUzmRf600001cc3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b0dip+fj9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16333

Morag Traynor asked what a fight song is.  It's an American high 
school marching band term for the rah-rah song played at American 
football games.  It's often adapted for the other sports as well.  
The band plays it after the home team scores, when the team needs a 
morale booster, and at time outs when there's no time to dig out a 
more complicated song.  It's the song most asked for by alumni at a 
gathering; many of *my* University's alumni don't even *know* the 
alma mater--for shame!  :)

I'm providing a Griffindor fight song filked on my own beloved 
University of Tulsa's fight song--this song was written by Ben 
Henneke, undergrad in the 30's, President in the 50's, and *still* 
Professor Emeritus with an office and everything.

Needless to say, I was in TU's Marching Band.  Piccolo.

Griffindor Fight Song

Down the pitch to victory
On Lions on!
Fight on till the Snitch we see
Battle on and on!
Beat out the Keeper, oh Lions,
Score on mounting score,
Bludge all the Chasers and Seekers,
Let that Lion roar!
Drive those [opponents] off their heads,
Fight 'em, Lions, fight!
Brave gold and red,
Go right ahead,
Grab the Snitch for victory!



--Lisa




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 11 01:58:14 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:58:14 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry (clarification)
In-Reply-To: <9b0d43+c0qb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0dnm+94hl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16334

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
> > 
> > > Her near pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a 
> cry
> > > for
> > > attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of
> > > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder)
> > 
> > I saw that Heidi addressed this already.  I agree completely that
> > Hermione displays no signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.  Why 
is 
> her
> > desire to achieve academically a bad thing?
> > 
> 
> I work for a medical group. The psychiatrist in the group is a fan. 
> Anyhow,we were discussing Hermione about a month or two ago. He is 
of 
> the opinion that Hermione is obsessive and compulsive about her 
> studies. But he can't diagnose her with OCD, because her behaviors 
> don't interfere with her daily functioning. However, she can be 
> diagnosed with "Personality Disorder, NOS" (NOS = 'not otherwise 
> specified'). It doesn't mean she's a bad person or even that she's 
> mentally ill. It just means that she has a personality trait that is 
> more apparent in her than in other people. Everyone has varying 
> degrees of obsessive and compulsive behavior. It's only when it gets 
> to either extreme that it becomes pathologic. I've got to admit, 
> studying material that you know by heart over and over and over 
again, 
> seems a little extreme.
>  
> 
> > > The only way I think I can objectively dissect and analyse the
> > > characters is to examine their actions within the context of the
> > > chapter(s) as they take place. I think using the final outcome 
to
> > > interpret their actions in earlier chapters (or in earlier 
books)
> > > gives a somewhat tainted analysis of their actions 'in situ'.
> > 
> 
> I briefly did medical chart reviews for extra income, so I have an 
> inkling of how Demelza is analysing the characters. In medical chart 
> review, ideally you're supposed to review the chart as though the 
> events were unfolding in front of you in order to determine the 
> appropriateness of the care delivered; meaning that 
> appropriate/rational steps were taken at each step. Then you look at 
> the discharge diagnosis and the determine whether or not the care 
was 
> reasonable/appropriate. You're not supposed to look at the discharge 
> diagnosis and use that to determine the appropriateness of the care 
> delivered (most insurance companies and HMOs do it this way so they 
> can save money, which is why I don't do med chart reviews anymore.) 
> Reviewing the chart that way taints its analysis, because it doesn't 
> take into consideration the alternate scenarios the care giver had 
to 
> consider to make the diagnosis. Doing it this way, you can always 
make 
> the case why the delivered care was inappropriate (like I said, it 
> saves lots of money for the company!). But if you review it the 
ideal 
> way, the care (unless they really, really, totally screwed up) can 
be 
> almost always justified because you get a clearer picture of what 
the 
> care givers were facing and why they acted accordingly (the company 
> must reimburse and therefore lose money). The ideal way of 
reviewing, 
> where the chart is examined without pre-conceived notions and as 
> though the events are unfolding before you, is actually fair, 
because 
> it takes the "maybes", "what ifs", and "supposes" into consideration 
> and makes you think "was this reasonable with the information known 
at 
> this point in time".  Like I said, this method doesn't save money.
> 
> I think this is how Demelza is analysing the characters, using the 
> known information that the point in time of the chapter of an 
> incidence, then looking at the conclusions being drawn from it and 
> seeing if the material supports those conclusions. 
> 
> I "chart reviewed" Ginny recently and I have a completely different 
> and more favorable impression of her now.
> 
> :-)Milz (who profusely apologizes for the medical examples and for 
> tainting this forum with dirty words like "insurance companies", 
> "HMOs", "care givers", "reimburse")

Let me clarify this point. In the ideal method of chart review, after 
examining the events as though they are unfolding in front you, you 
then determine the actions taken were reasonable/appropriate to arrive 
at the diagnosis/final outcome. If they aren't reasonable, you have a 
problem (well the care givers have a problem, the patient has a 
problem and the company has grounds to withhold payment for services 
rendered). If they are reasonable, then you don't have a problem, 
unless you're the company 'cause you'll have to pay for the services 
rendered.

:-)Milz (who apologizes once again.)




From linman6868 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 02:01:58 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:01:58 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor Fight Song (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9b0ded+8eff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0dum+j16o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16335

Oh Good Lord what have I done?  I posted a filk only to find one 
already written.  Okay, now who wants to do the Slytherin, 
Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw Fight Songs?  I'm going to do a fight song 
just for Ron as soon as I get my pencil out. 

Be sure and write two fight songs for each House, so everything will 
be fair.

Lisa  :~)




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 11 02:03:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:03:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as Quidditch Ace
References: <9atg33+c130@eGroups.com> <00e401c0c1c0$568a9c20$5972023e@shasta>
Message-ID: <3AD3BB64.A4DEE1A2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16336

Aberforth's Goat wrote:

> *I* hereby wager 5 Butterbeers that Ron'll be the next Gryffindor
> quidditch captain. Now that Wood is gone, they'll need a new keeper.
> Ron, who is lanky, has the right build--and he certainly has a passion
> for the game. My
> guess is that they'll bring him in as a sort of second rate
> substitute, then realize that he's not only a good keeper but a great
> strategist.

Never forgetting what Ron saw in the Mirror of Erised, after all....my
book's busy, but wasn't he Captain of Quidditch?

I missed the chat, sorry if this was mentioned...

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 02:06:04 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:06:04 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Griffindor Fight Song (filk)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F196kvAdxaQ6sh0000276e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16337

Love both fight songs, and hey, my friends call me Morag, or Mo!  :)


>From: linman6868 at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Griffindor Fight Song (filk)
>Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:55:37 -0000
>
>Morag Traynor asked what a fight song is.  It's an American high
>school marching band term for the rah-rah song played at American
>football games.  It's often adapted for the other sports as well.
>The band plays it after the home team scores, when the team needs a
>morale booster, and at time outs when there's no time to dig out a
>more complicated song.  It's the song most asked for by alumni at a
>gathering; many of *my* University's alumni don't even *know* the
>alma mater--for shame!  :)
>
>I'm providing a Griffindor fight song filked on my own beloved
>University of Tulsa's fight song--this song was written by Ben
>Henneke, undergrad in the 30's, President in the 50's, and *still*
>Professor Emeritus with an office and everything.
>
>Needless to say, I was in TU's Marching Band.  Piccolo.
>
>Griffindor Fight Song
>
>Down the pitch to victory
>On Lions on!
>Fight on till the Snitch we see
>Battle on and on!
>Beat out the Keeper, oh Lions,
>Score on mounting score,
>Bludge all the Chasers and Seekers,
>Let that Lion roar!
>Drive those [opponents] off their heads,
>Fight 'em, Lions, fight!
>Brave gold and red,
>Go right ahead,
>Grab the Snitch for victory!
>
>
>
>--Lisa
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 02:06:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:06:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Griffindor Fight Song (filk)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F20wGXSXCWV8S0000026ac@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16338

Love both fight songs, and hey, my friends call me Morag, or Mo!  :)



_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From dasienko at email.com  Wed Apr 11 02:13:32 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:13:32 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <003701c0c1e8$e378eba0$0867d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9b0ekc+lesb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16339

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at t...>
> 
> 
> > Magda Grantwich wrote:
> >
> > > Several times I have read that a particular character is
> > > such-and-such because this and this and then this happened as 
detailed
> > > in someone's fanfiction and thus this is what that section of
> > > PS/CoS/PoA/GoF refers to or means.  Just where does fanfiction 
sit in
> > > terms of discussion of the books?
> > >
> > > I haven't read anything but the books.  I'm prepared to make
> > > predictions of future actions or deduce past actions (like 
Snape's
> > > background or Draco's home life) but based on the "canon" as 
it's been
> > > called.
> 
> Well isn't this the basis of most good fanfic?  It's about 
predicting future
> actions and/or deducing past actions in a narrative setting.  
Rather than
> doing a detailed character summary or discussing the charactrer as 
a post to
> the list, some of us write fanfic.  Its a way to illustrate in a 
creative
> way our "take" on the characters and settings.  Instead of 
saying...in this
> circumstance I think Ron would do XYZ.  You create that 
circumstance in the
> story and show how you think he would resolve it.
> 
> 
> > This is the main reason why I won't read fanfiction. Judging from 
the
> > quality of the posters who say they write it, some of it's 
fantastic,
> > but I know me and I will inevitably "fuzz" the line between the 
canon
> > characters and their fic cousins. I have a lot of fun speculating 
on the
> > canon, and I want my "take" on the flavor and "feel" and well, 
character
> > of the characters to be strictly based on JKR, at least during the
> > production of the seven books.
> >
> 
> For me, writing fanfic is a way to further define my "take" on the
> characters.  Most fanfic writers will tell you that their take on a
> character is canon based, but it still may differ from your take on 
that
> same character, based on the same canon.  Granted JKR might further 
refine
> some character into someone completely different by Books 5,6, and 
7...but
> it does give us something to do and illustrates more deeply 
different takes
> on the characters.
> 
> You can discuss character traits ''til the cows come home, but to 
read those
> traits in the context of a story is far more enlightening and 
interesting,
> IMHO.
> 
> carole

Please let us not forget the TRUE meaning of the literary term canon. 
A canon is usually defined as the work and the author's commentary on 
the work. Fan fiction is a realitively new literary genre. I don't 
believe that James Joyce, or DH Lawrence, for example, have any 
fanfiction written "extending" their works. If anyone knows of and 
DHLArence fanfiction, I'd really love to read it.

Commentary is one thing, but fan fiction is another author's 
interpretation of the story/characters. IT's fun, it's entertaining, 
but it neither adds nor detracts fron the canon.




From linman6868 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 02:26:18 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:26:18 -0000
Subject: Ron's Fight Song (filk)
Message-ID: <9b0fca+rn7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16340

Here's Ron's Fight Song.  Won't you help me sing along?

To the tune of "On, Wisconsin."

Ron, Let's Fight On!

Ronald Weasley
Ronald Weasley
He's the boy we cheer!
He's the one who's sure to make us
Grin from ear to ear--
That's why for
Ronald Weasley
We will raise a
Glass of butterbeer!
Let's yell out a chant and shout--
RON! all...to...hear!!

[followed by a tumult of cheers and raucous yells, not to mention 
body paint spelling R-O-N-A-L-D on six frat boys' thin torsos]

--Lisa, settling down now, I hope






From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 11 02:30:46 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:30:46 -0500
Subject: Snape and Javert and Eponine! (was Authority and rule-breaking)
References: <9av15l+ta2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3C1D6.1E10AEE3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16341

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> It's a few years since I've read the book/seen the musical, but
> doesn't Inspector Javert commit suicide, partly because he realises
> that his behaviour and regard for crime and punishment has lead to
> obsession and miscarriage of justice (or at least not proportionate
> justice), and that ultimately his behaviour has been inhumane?
>
> I always saw his character as very black/white, which is how I've
> considered Snape - and I think it's the realisation that things cannot
> be assessed in that way which will force Snape to take stock. This way
> of living could also be construed as a form of cowardice - it is very
> easy not to have to think about things and live within the confines of
> an ordered society with a defined set of rules - it takes
> more guts to know when these are not apppropriate and to try and act
> accordingly.

I've been pondering, as I threatened. Javert "broke," I think, because
he spent his whole life in that black/white rules mode. He rejected his
birth and upbringing violently, by adhering with fanatic loyalty to the
law. It was the realization of the validity of mercy, a sudden awareness
that justice alone is not enough, that shattered him. It was his whole
world, his whole being, and to understand that your modus operandi is
not only fallible, but also not the only correct way, was too much. Yes,
it can be perceived as a kind of cowardice; for Javert, it was armor,
and it failed him.

Okay. Snape. I think he has not always been so rules-oriented. I think
he's in some sort of "pause" mode. His reliance on the importance of
rules seems to me not on the same scale as Javert's. Snape is sitting
back enforcing rules and taking points like a tired man sitting in an
easy chair. It's not his armor, so much as what he happens to be doing
right now. He just doesn't feel as inflexible as Javert.

Rules and such seem important to Snape, but on a more intellectual, less
"gut" level than they do to Javert. For Javert, they are the fabric of
the universe. For Snape, they are a non-emotional means to view and
interact with the world. I think in his past he was not the contained,
controlled man we see now; it is always an invoking of the past, of old
associations or old relationships, that provoke the emotion in him,
including the insane emotional scene in PoA.

I was surprised that I came up with the thought that Snape has
resonances with Eponine's character. But I think he does. I think there
was a lost love interest, whoever she was and whatever happened to her.
I think it likely that his position as a Death Eater and his inability
to reveal that he was a spy (for both of their protections), lost him
that love. And he had to see her go to someone else. And let her go--for
the good of the ultimate goal, for the worth of his word to Dumbledore,
for her safety, for her happiness, for whatever reason. And clamped
firmly down on the emotional side, the side that is most open to "gray,"
and sat back in that easy-chair Rules mode. I don't think he'd stirred
from the mode much in the intervening years, until here came Harry, and
started old emotions percolating.

His is the personality who would have hated anyone else that the object
of his affection chose (whether it be James' taking Lily, or any other
man taking another woman he loved). And if his role as spy, which might
have cost him that love, also required him to act to protect the hated
person, and he did it anyway out of love for the lady, why, there you
have a very sulky, nasty, mean Eponine. Who did not die, but who might
as well have, for all the emotion he lets show anymore.

I hope that made some kind of sense; I'm trying to take intangibles and
put them into words. But I sense some sort of sacrifice in Snape's past,
some sort of deliberate choice to be what and where he is, which cost
him something he wanted. I don't think Javert ever opened himself to any
sort of emotional pain; he'd cut off his emotions before he really
learned to use them. I think Snape had had more and made a choice to
lose it, for whatever reason, and has accepted emotional pain. Thus the
resonance to Eponine.

I don't, for the record, think the main irritant to Snape was ever a
lack of public recognition. Snape has never indicated that he assigns
the slightest importance to what anyone else thinks, saving probably
Dumbledore and McGonagall (and perhaps a few other teachers). The people
he values know his choices and worth; I doubt he gives a tinker's damn
for the opinions of people he doesn't value. His ambition, I think,
follows such private avenues, and does not actively seek public acclaim
(although he, like most of us, probably wouldn't mind...).

--Amanda, longwinded on her favorite subject


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 02:33:32 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:33:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness
Message-ID: <90.12dcc408.28051c7c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16342


Dumbledore to Fudge at the end of GoF:

"Extend them the hand of friendship, now, before it is too late," said 
Dumbledore, "or Voldemort will persuade them, as he did before, that he alone 
among wizards will give them their rights and their freedom."

Fudge then goes on to state that this would be the end of his career because 
people hate the giants.  

What did the giants do?  They were aligned with Voldemort the last time 
around. They may very well have committed some unspeakable atrocities, and 
the mere mention of them brings forth fear in the hearts of some members of 
the wizarding community.

We don't know what Ron has heard about what the giants have done.  For all we 
know, a group of giants could have come and murdered half of his family in 
their beds. 

I do not condone racism in any way, shape, or form but I hardly think that 
Ron is a racist.  He is, however, expressing the fear that is already deep 
set in the wizarding community.  He gives us the first glimpse of it - before 
it is mentioned by Dumbledore and Fudge.

~Moey
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" 
        -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 02:26:45 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:26:45 -0500
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
References: <9b0ekc+lesb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3C0E5.9E1D188F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16343

Hi --

dasienko at email.com wrote:

> Please let us not forget the TRUE meaning of the literary term canon.
> A canon is usually defined as the work and the author's commentary on
> the work. Fan fiction is a realitively new literary genre.
>
> Commentary is one thing, but fan fiction is another author's
> interpretation of the story/characters. IT's fun, it's entertaining,
> but it neither adds nor detracts fron the canon.

Actually, I disagree with your last statement.  It *can* add to one's
understanding of the canon.  It can add to one's interpretation of the
canon.  As you say, fanfic is written by another author, and sometimes a
fanfic author does depart wildly from canon.  Others adhere rigidly to
*their interpretation* of canon.  Everyone interprets the canon
differently, so fanfic is just an extension of one's own interpretation
of canon IMO.  It can make you look at the canon in a different way.
There's no one set way to interpret canon & the characters.  Everyone
puts their spin on it.  I think the advantage to reading fanfic is it
may cause you to re-think your own perceptions about a particular
character or plotline.  You may see alternate possibilties that hadn't
presented themselves before.  You can also get this different
perspective by debating on groups like this, but fanfic is just another
medium to do the exact same thing (IMO).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 02:44:16 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:44:16 -0500
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
References: <9avjic+i00a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3C500.71226802@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16344

Hi --

Demelza wrote:

> I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, that
> passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been
> supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of
> familial support.

What if they made it clear that they didn't want him with them?  It
might not be so clear-cut as Percy shutting himself off from them.
Someone else today made a good point about the fact that his brothers
haven't exactly been nice & welcoming to Percy.  Percy may have built up
defense mechanisms over a period of years.

> Demelza: Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh
> treatment> > of Winky.
> >
> > Me: Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the
> measure of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius
> thinks
> > Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> > character.
> >
>
> Demelza: Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to
> co-workers. Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. Perhaps
> this is due to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, there
> is no
> possibility that he could turn on his family.

Well, Hermione knows Percy better than lots of other people.  Somewhere
in GoF is a comment to the effect that Hermione had always gotten on
better with Percy than any of his brothers.  They are alot alike and
have been shown chatting.  I would wager she's basing her assessment on
more than just "He's a Weasley; therefore, there's no possibility he
could turn on his family."

> If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, why
> should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are
> incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's portrayal,
> Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's pleadings
> should not have made difference at all.

It's not just Hermione who portrays him this way.  Sirius has some very
harsh judgments to pass on Crouch, Sr.   He thinks Crouch Sr. did a
lousy job as a father.  He thinks Crouch was rigid & abused his position
as head of the Magical Law Council (he was the one responsible for
ordering Sirius be taken to Azkaban with no trial).  Hermione's judgment
was initially based on his treatment of Winky, yes.  But, her judgment
turned out to mesh with that of Sirius in any case.

> "Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior dictates
>
> that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things.
> Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat to
>
> be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the
> cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard Hermione
> has for Ron and his possessions.

Ah well ... since that *is* an argument against R/H, I'll leave it be.
:--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 03:03:38 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:03:38 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <3AD2FE2B.28E5E98@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b0hib+l3ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16345

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > In answer to that: People with an extraordinary sense of 
authority and
> > rule-keeping do not necessarily have a good sense of justice and
> > fairness, too... they more often tend not to see beyond the 
rules. On
> > the contrary, their concept will only make sense to them if they 
don?t
> > accept anything beyond the rules. They will not allow the rules 
to be
> > modified by higher principles such as equity, or justice, or 
fairness.
> 
> Hmmm. Snape is Inspector Javert. I wonder if he will break, as 
Javert
> did. Any other Les Miserables fans out there want to explore the
> similarity?
> 


obviously, Amanda and I were linked in a past life..she did dreadful 
things and was reincarnated as a Republican..

Not only am I a Les Miserables fan, but I'm a Fugitive fan...Snape is 
Inspector Javert AND Lt. Gerard...

Susan
> I didn't have time to read the whole post (sorry) and I have to go 
deal
> with the little one now....I'll be pondering.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 02:51:58 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:51:58 -0500
Subject: Ron Week : More Questions
References: <9avlpm+1c7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3C6CE.41EE20A3@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16346

Hi --

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Ron betraying Harry UNintentionally IMO is not a possibility because
> I really cannot see any scenario in which this could occur.

I bet JKR *could* come up with something though.  If that's the way she
chose to take the books. :--)

> Most people don't doubt Ron's intellect (master chess player, seems to
>
> have about the same grades as Harry) so his being 'taken in' doesn't
> seem reasonable to me. IIRC, someone said something to the effect
> that Ron is quick to leap without looking and THAT might cause him to
> unintentionally betray Harry. IMO, Harry is the one who doesn't look
> before he leaps.

Harry wades into danger without giving it alot of thought.  That's
true.  But, Ron has a tendency to pass judgment quickly, leap to
ill-considered conclusions (others have said, he said alot of really
illogical & stupid things in GoF, trying to be noticed, trying to draw
attention to himself).  I think it's possible that if the Dark Side
targeted him and knew his weaknesses, he could unintentionally fall into
their trap through carelessness.  I'm not saying Hermione is absolutely
immune from the same thing, but honestly, if you were a DE who knew the
both of them, which one would you say was more vulnerable to
manipulation?  I know which one I'd pick.

> But I haven't heard anyone seriously consider HARRY as being a
> candidate for unintentional going over to the Dark side due to his
> impulsiveness.

I'm not arguing that anyone would *go over to the Dark Side* because of
impulsiveness.  That makes no sense.  I'm saying that impulsiveness &
rash judgments could cause Ron to fall unwittingly into the hands of the
Dark Side. Falling into a trap is not at all the same thing as
affirmatively taking action to *go over to* the other side.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 02:56:12 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:56:12 -0500
Subject: Hermione & Obsessive Studying
References: <9avnit+8835@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3C7CC.68FD635C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16347

Hi --

Demelza wrote:

> But this raises the questions why Hermione studies so much when she
> clearly knows the material and why would her greatest fear be to fail
> classes?

Maybe she doesn't have confidence that she does know the material that
well.  She seems to know it inside-out, but she must have her own
reasons for studying hard.

> It could be that Hermione equates her self-worth with her grades.

I think this is very possible.  Why is this necessarily a bad thing?
What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to succeed
academically because it will open doors for her down the road?  She may
be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than wanting
success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or athletically)?

> But then, why should she equate her self-worth with *academic*
> success? In other words, what is the origin of this and how does this
> affect Hermione's interaction with others? This opens a can of worms
> concerning Hermione's psyche and can explain how she regards/treats
> others.

Do you want to elaborate on what you mean?

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 11 03:06:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:06:43 -0500
Subject: Ventures into Draco territory
Message-ID: <3AD3CA43.5766D85@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16348

Draco is not a favorite of mine, but I've skimmed the debates about
"he's redeemable" versus "he's a total little Nazi." My apologies if
this has been brought up, but I didn't remember seeing it mentioned
lately, and I've been wondering.

I think Draco is a total little Nazi, myself. The main reason is the
scene in CoS when Ron and Harry are polyjuiced and talking to Draco in
the Slytherin common room. This is the only "eavesdropped" Draco glimpse
we've gotten, comparable to the couple of "eavesdropped" scenes with
teachers--where the character(s) in question are not aware that they are
overheard, and therefore the presence of the listener is not affecting
what is said.

And Draco is nasty. Just as nasty as he is when he *is* "on view." He
wants to know who the Heir is, so he can *help* him, for Pete's sake.
Our view of Draco in his own element, his own common room, among
friends, is just as bad as Draco anywhere else. Thus, I think he's
really like that. Ugh.

It can be argued that he's still putting up a bit of an act, that Crabbe
and Goyle are the audience he must convince, since they probably can
speak enough to communicate with their fathers, but this is a bit of a
stretch to me.

So how do you believers in Draco's ultimate redemption handle this
scene? Granted, in "book time" it was two years ago, but in the absence
of any compelling evidence that he's maturing, and considering his
behavior at the end of GoF, I'm still pretty inclined to think he's a
little Nazi.

--Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 03:18:39 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:18:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione & Obsessive Studying
References: <9avnit+8835@eGroups.com> <3AD3C7CC.68FD635C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <0b0901c0c236$1ab27760$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16349

When I was attending SSC (Heading to Walsh this fall, Junior, yeah!!!), I
started Aug 98.

Most of my friends and family said I was stupid, and foolish for going to
school when I had a one-year old who needed taken care of.  I should go and
get a job, and be a responsible mother.

I decided, my first day on campus when I saw the Phi Theta Kappa Board, to
prove myself.  In order to graduate, all I needed was C's.  I'd have a
degree.  I decided I wanted to do it wearing a golden sash (rather than the
traditional SSC colors) on May 20th.  Again, these same folks said there was
no way I could do this--not as a single mom with juggling housework,
schoolwork, a Work-Study job, and classes, plus bussing too and from said
classes.

I should be able to pick my golden sash up May 1st.  I squeeked with a
3.656, not what I had hoped for.  I still know I could have did the 4.0.  I
still think I should have applied myself MORE to classes.

Those folks who pah-pahed me?  Their mouths are hanging open.  Some are the
ones clapping the hardest in my circle that I DID do it.

I pushed myself beyond what I had to do, just to prove it to them, and to
ME!

I am my own worst critic.  I KNOW what I am capable of and get mad when I
don't measure up.

I saw in an interview that Tiger Woods is the same way. :)

I identify with Hermione in a big way.  She too feels like I do--she's not
doing her best, unless she's got the highest marks for her class.  That she
CAN be doing better, even if her marks are high!  It doesn't matter to her
if she did get 113, if she didn't apply herself to the task with everything
she had--it's not good enough for her.

Did someone say her birthday was a Virgo?  (Aug 29th here, Pisces rising for
the flakey-side!)  We are kindred spirits, even if she is only ink and
paper!

Dee



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 03:22:21 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:22:21 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <3AD3C0E5.9E1D188F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b0ild+6hvq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16350

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
 
It can make you look at the canon in a different way. There's no one 
set way to interpret canon & the characters.  Everyone puts their 
spin on it.  I think the advantage to reading fanfic is it may cause 
you to re-think your own perceptions about a particular character or 
plotline.  You may see alternate possibilties that hadn't presented 
themselves before.  You can also get this different perspective by 
debating on groups like this, but fanfic is just another medium to do 
the exact same thing (IMO).
> 
> Penny


I agree with Penny that fanfic can change your perception of a 
character or events that maybe you didn't entertain before. 
Discussion here can give you other people's insight to their 
perseptions of the canon but it's not quite the same as a narrative 
in fanfic. A narrative from a certain characters pov can give you a 
little more insight to where they are coming from. I know as a reader 
I can get an emotional connection, so to speak, to character that I 
couldn't get from just a dicussion about their personality traits.

I'll use Draco as a prime example. In canon I find him to be a nasty, 
self-centered, spoiled little boy without a redeeming quality to be 
had. Then I read Draco Dormiens and through Cassie's eyes I saw how 
Draco might view Harry's world and we saw what Draco's world might be 
like to cause him to be that nasty little boy. It's given me pause to 
go back and maybe look at Draco differently in the canon and see if I 
can find anything redeemable about him. I wouldn't have felt this way 
if I based my opinions on just what is posted on the different lists. 
I personally need to make a connection in order to change my view.

Cheers,
  Kristin




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 03:18:34 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:18:34 -0500
Subject: Ron's Phobias
References: <9b0a92+f166@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3CD0A.80492C2C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16351

Hi --

arabella at sugarquill.com wrote:

> > > He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.
> >
> Me: > Um .... yes & no.  He was silent & hardly able to do more than
> heave himself into the car.  I don't know that it's fair to say that
> he
> truly confronted & overcame his fears.
>
> Arabella: I have a real problem with spiders.  I'd say the mere fact
> that highly phobic Ron followed a streaming line of them into the
> Forbidden Forest, in the dark, not knowing what kind of craziness he
> was going to encounter, says an awful lot about his ability to
> confront and overcome his fears.  Yeah, he was silent, yeah, he
> jumped in that car - I seem to remember Harry jumping in there too...
> let me check... yeah.  Oh, and when Harry yells for Ron to get Fang,
> he's present enough to do so - "Ron seized the boarhound around the
> middle and threw him, yelping, into the back of the car..."  So he
> managed a care outside of his fear at a pretty terrible moment.

I was really just arguing that I'm not sure he's truly *overcome* his
fears of spiders.  He's still apprehensive around them (GoF -- Moody's
curses lesson).  Yes, Harry jumped in the car too; I'm not dissing Ron
for jumping in the car.  But, he wasn't exactly trying to talk to Aragog
& help get them out of that mess.  He left that to Harry.  Truly
confronting & overcoming his fears would involve a bit more than he
did.  But, I don't mean to detract from what he *did* do.  I couldn't
possibly follow a trail of palmetto bugs *anywhere* so he gets credit in
my book.  But, I guess I interpret "confronting & overcoming* a fear
more narrowly than others.  That's all.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 03:34:05 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:34:05 EDT
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather
Message-ID: <23.a265669.28052aad@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16352

In a message dated 4/10/01 11:09:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:


> I think this is very possible.  Why is this necessarily a bad thing?
> What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to succeed
> academically because it will open doors for her down the road?  She may
> be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than wanting
> success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or athletically)?
> 

And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting recognition among your 
family and peers for your accomplishments?  How is it any different from 
wanting financial stability? 

How is it that one person's wants make them more susceptible to the Dark side 
than those of someone else?

I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that different.

~Moey
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" 
        -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 03:12:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:12:10 -0500
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
References: <9b0053+ivhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3CB8A.9A42EE8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16353

Hi --

arabella at sugarquill.com wrote:

> That's definitely one way to look at it.  Another way is to take into
> consideration that Ron has spent the better part of the last quarter
> of GoF proposing solutions to problems off the top of his head - many
> of which aren't top-notch solutions - just for the sake of having
> something to propose, something to offer.

Glad to see one of the SugarQuill types agrees with my assessment on
this score.  :--)

> It's my opinion that Ron's sort of grasping at straws in order to be
> of help, at this point.

That is certainly possible.

> I think you're being very hard on Ron, to give him no
> chance to grow out of this after the age of 15.

Oh, don't misunderstand me.  I'm certainly not arguing that Ron is
irredeemable in this regard.  I'd love to see him overcome this
handicap.  But, as of the end of GoF, I don't see that he's made any
real progress in this regard.  I think he's made personal exceptions for
Lupin & Hagrid.  But, I'm not yet convinced that he's abandoned his
preconceived notions about werewolves & giants.  That is not to say that
he won't *ever* overcome his issues.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 03:07:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:07:43 -0500
Subject: Announcements List
Message-ID: <3AD3CA7F.9E857A29@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16354

Hi --

Just to report that all the feedback we've received so far has been
positive.  People like the Announcements group and the trio of groups.
It's not too late to weigh in by any means, but I thought I'd let
everyone know where things stand as I reply to Hagridd's question.

Hagridd asked:

> It sounds like a good system.  In order to limit the amount of
> unnecessary hits on the announcement site, would you consider simply
> placing a message on the main board alerting us to the presence of a
> new announcement?
>
That would defeat the purpose though.  The purpose is to reduce message
volume on the main group for things that are simply announcements (new
merchandise, a new fanfic chapter, a news link, I spotted JKR in
Edinburgh today, WarnerBros news, etc.).

Not to mention that your suggestion would be just one more thing for the
Moderators to coordinate.  This is a group of over 1100 members at the
moment and coordinating all the requests & questions isn't always easy
in any case.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 04:06:37 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:06:37 -0000
Subject: Ron Week : More Questions
In-Reply-To: <3AD3C6CE.41EE20A3@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b0l8d+lbhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16355

>>IMO, Harry is the one who doesn't look
> > before he leaps.
> 
> Harry wades into danger without giving it alot of thought.  That's
> true.  But, Ron has a tendency to pass judgment quickly, leap to
> ill-considered conclusions (others have said, he said alot of really
> illogical & stupid things in GoF, trying to be noticed, trying to 
draw
> attention to himself). 

I agree with both those character presentations.  Both boys, 
differently motivated, have shown a tendency toward rash action at 
one point or another.

> I think it's possible that if the Dark Side
> targeted him and knew his weaknesses, he could unintentionally fall 
into
> their trap through carelessness.  I'm not saying Hermione is 
absolutely
> immune from the same thing, but honestly, if you were a DE who knew 
the
> both of them, which one would you say was more vulnerable to
> manipulation?  I know which one I'd pick.
> 

Well, it depends which DE, IMO.  Lucius Malfoy, getting his 
information from Draco, would probably go after Hermione first.  This 
is IMO, I'm imagining myself Evil - and I'm seeing that Hermione is a 
Muggle-born whose parents are magically unprotected 10 months out of 
the year, whereas Ron's got a ton of people looking after him - the 
Weasleys are rooted and versed in the magical world and are capable 
of fighting for their lives.  The Grangers, OTOH, are much more 
vulnerable to straight on threats and attacks, which IMO, makes it 
much easier to trap Hermione and to make her feel unsafe - at least, 
materially.  *Emotionally* (IMO) the easier target is Ron.  Although 
I don't know which DE could possibly know this.  Excepting, of 
course, Scabbers/Pettigrew/Wormtail, who was privy to the ins and 
outs of the Harry/Ron/Hermione relationship for three years.  (This 
is assuming that the Animagus brain retains all informations 
received, which is an arguable point in and of itself, now that we 
have QTTA as a reference.)  And why is Ron the easiest emotional 
target? IMO, it's very well summed up by Penny here:

>I'm saying that impulsiveness &
> rash judgments could cause Ron to fall unwittingly into the hands 
of the
> Dark Side. Falling into a trap is not at all the same thing as
> affirmatively taking action to *go over to* the other side.

Exactly.  "Falling" and "going over to" are totally different.  I'd 
actually *welcome* a scenario in which Ron's loyatly is tested - 
greatly.  I think that would be dramatic and fabulous.  We know he 
wants money, we know he wants attention - how riveting would it be to 
see him make the choice between what he *thinks* he wants (fame and 
fortune) and what's truly valuable to him (his friends)? (IMO) And I 
think Ron is more than up to the challenge - in my opinion he'd 
choose to be true to his heart, and therefore to Harry and Hermione.  
But I'm just thinking and hoping and supposing based on what I've 
read so far, which is that Ron is the kind of character who can stand 
up with a broken leg with a green face against a 'mass murderer' and 
willingly defend his friend.  I'd LOVE to see what kind of chess 
moves Ron would pull out in a DE hostage situation! 




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 04:08:01 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:08:01 -0000
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather
In-Reply-To: <23.a265669.28052aad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b0lb1+9iig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16356

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
 
> And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting recognition 
among your family and peers for your accomplishments?  How is it any 
different from wanting financial stability? 
> 
> How is it that one person's wants make them more susceptible to the 
Dark side than those of someone else?
> 
> I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that different.
> 
> ~Moey


IMO I don't think Ron wanting financial stability is going to make 
him suseptible to the Dark side. And from what I've read in other 
posts I don't believe other people think this way either. 

I think it's Ron's temper will put him in a situation that could hurt 
those he cares about. Yes he's intelligent but when he's mad he just 
doesn't think very clearly. Ron is an emotional being and that's how 
he operates where as Hermione is more logical and rarely lets her 
temper get the better of her. 

Could Hermione find herself an unwitting accomplice to Voldemort? 
Sure it's possible but I find it less likely than Ron finding himself
in that position. Hermione tends to think things through a little 
more, unless she panics, than Harry or Ron. 

And yes Harry has tended to rush head first into situations as well 
but I think after Voldemorts return at the end of GoF he may be a bit 
less implusive now. Ron hasn't had those experinces to curb that 
impulsive behavior in him. Also this may cause Ron to become more 
impulsive in order to protect Harry hence putting him in 
a "situation" that may be precieved as a betrayal of Harry. Just my 2 
more knuts on the subject. :)

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

     Kristin





From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 04:08:35 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:08:35 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F598r6beUzmRf600001cc3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b0lc3+93tu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16357

> Lisa also wrote:

>As a piece of >fumbling magnanimity this speech is okay and even a 
>little cute, but as a substitute for saying, "It's okay, Hermione.  
>And I'm sorry I threatened our friendship over it"--it doesn't wash.

Why on earth should Ron say "I'm sorry"? Ron didn't apologize because 
he had nothing to apologize for. Ron was concerned a pet he loved was 
going to die because Hermione was being irresponsible and not keeping 
her own pet under control.  





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 11 04:17:26 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:17:26 -0000
Subject: [Ron Week]: Ron's GoF Apology
In-Reply-To: <9at2j8+p1at@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0lsm+5v7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16358

I can't remember who wrote it, but someone wrote something to the 
effect that Ron can't admit he's wrong and cited GoF.

I just finished re-reading that chapter (Ch 20). Here's what it says:

Harry knew Ron was about to apologize and suddenly found he didn't 
need to hear it.
"It's okay," he said before Ron could get the words out. "Forget it."
"No," said Ron, "I shouldn't 've---"
"_Forget it_," Harry said.

So, Ron does make the effort to apologize, but Harry doesn't find it 
necessary for him to do so.

;-)Milz (who'll need to purchase new copies of the books because she's 
wearing them out with all the re-reading, re-reading to re-read)





From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 04:20:36 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:20:36 -0000
Subject: Ron and the Dark Side
Message-ID: <9b0m2k+g8sn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16359

Hello again!

Penny wrote:
> Ron betraying Harry UNintentionally IMO is not a possibility because
> I really cannot see any scenario in which this could occur.

I bet JKR *could* come up with something though.  If that's the way 
she
chose to take the books. :--)

I bet JKR *could* too. She is the master of inventiveness :-). But I 
have faith in JKR (and Ron <g>) and IMO she won't take the books 
there :)

Penny wrote:
Harry wades into danger without giving it alot of thought.  That's
true.  But, Ron has a tendency to pass judgment quickly, leap to
ill-considered conclusions (others have said, he said alot of really
illogical & stupid things in GoF, trying to be noticed, trying to draw
attention to himself).  I think it's possible that if the Dark Side
targeted him and knew his weaknesses, he could unintentionally fall 
into
their trap through carelessness.  I'm not saying Hermione is 
absolutely
immune from the same thing, but honestly, if you were a DE who knew 
the
both of them, which one would you say was more vulnerable to
manipulation?  I know which one I'd pick.

IMO Harry has shown just as much impetuousness in passing judgement 
quickly, leaping to ill-considered conclusions as Ron has. What I was 
saying was that these traits are not solely bound to Ron. Harry DOES 
have them too, or else we'd have a pretty boring series <g> and so 
does Hermione IMO. Hermione, as smart as she is is not infallible. I 
can just as easily see Hermione betraying Harry UNintentionally due 
to misinformation she may have gotten, but do I think she is a 
potentional DE or betrayer or that this will happen? Not on your 
life! If Ron has weaknesses so do Harry and Hermione and all three 
can be targeted by the Dark side for manipulation based on those 
weakenesses. Being hot-headed, hot-tempered, leaping to the wrong 
conclusion is not Ron's sole perogative. These traits do not 
automatically mean that 'he could unintentionally fall into their 
trap through carelessness'. But once again I want to point out that 
he has had these weaknesses from book 1 and in all four books he has 
NOT betrayed Harry intentionally or otherwise and his loyalty HAS 
been tested. :)

Penny wrote:
> But I haven't heard anyone seriously consider HARRY as being a
> candidate for unintentional going over to the Dark side due to his
> impulsiveness.

I'm not arguing that anyone would *go over to the Dark Side* because 
of
impulsiveness.  That makes no sense.  I'm saying that impulsiveness &
rash judgments could cause Ron to fall unwittingly into the hands of 
the
Dark Side. Falling into a trap is not at all the same thing as
affirmatively taking action to *go over to* the other side.

I agree. Falling into a trap IS not the same thing as affirmatively 
taking action to *go over to * the other side. The key point of my 
comment about Harry was the UNINTENTIONAL part. 'Going over to the 
Dark Side' was not well worded by me. Your wording of 'going over to 
the Dark Side because of impulsiveness' is what I meant to say :). I 
see Harry as being AS impulsive and AS capable of making rash 
judgements as Ron but I don't think that this will cause either of 
them to fall 'unwittingly into the hands of the Dark Side'. :-)

I have faith in JKR :-) 

Firoza




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 04:27:39 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:27:39 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b04o0+dm7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0mfr+vss9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16360

 linman6868 at a... wrote:
 
>because of the fight, Ron doesn't know what's coming in the 
>first task,

He didn't know about dragons but he must have known it would be 
something dangerous and he must have known half the school had Potter 
Stinks" buttons, he must have know his best friend was miserable. 
What did he do to help? Nothing.   

>so the sight of those dragons must have been a pretty 
>potent cure for his case of envy. 

True
 
> It's pretty clear, even by looking solely through Ron's point of 
> view, that Harry and Ron have *both* something to answer for 
> concerning their protracted fight. 

That's  not clear to me at all. Ron was 100% in the wrong Harry 100% 
in the right. I think Harry was very restrained, I would have knocked 
Ron's block off.








From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 11 04:30:40 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:30:40 -0700
Subject: You-Know-Who's Web Page (Nancy S. that is.)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410210903.00c05520@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16361

I just dropped by the web page of She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
because someone informed me that she has the Intro to her "Muggles"
book there   Well, after signing in as "Severus Snape", I read it.  How to
describe it?  The word "banal" comes to mind.  But aside from that,
I see zilch resemblance to anything in Harry Potter.  I think it's
more likely that *she* "borrowed" from some other literary
post-apocalyptic society like the one in H.G. Wells' _Time Machine_
than Jo stole from *her*!

I also notice in her list of characters there's a "Lady Catherine"...
Does the Jane Austen society know about this??   :)


                                   -- Dave


"If I had ever learnt, I would have been a great proficient."




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 11 04:34:50 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:34:50 -0000
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather
In-Reply-To: <23.a265669.28052aad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b0mta+nivu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16362

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/01 11:09:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> pennylin at s... writes:
> 
> 
> > I think this is very possible.  Why is this necessarily a bad 
thing?
> > What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to succeed
> > academically because it will open doors for her down the road?  
She may
> > be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than 
wanting
> > success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or 
athletically)?
> > 
> 
> And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting recognition among 
your 
> family and peers for your accomplishments?  How is it any different 
from 
> wanting financial stability? 
> 
> How is it that one person's wants make them more susceptible to the 
Dark side 
> than those of someone else?
> 
> I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that different.
> 
> ~Moey

You make a very good point!!! Ron's wants and desires are given a  
negative spin, whereas Hermione's are viewed in a positive way. 
However, both of their ambitions are driven by the need for a feeling 
of self-worth. 

I don't know who is more susceptible to the Dark side or if they will 
even venture in that direction (I like to be surprized or 
disappointed). But neither of them has been offered a chance for their 
dreams to come true. Ron came the closest with the Mirror of Erised. 
But even he, refused to return to it the next night. Hermione hasn't. 

I agree with whoever said that it is a shame that we never got to see 
Hermione's Mirror of Erised.

:-)Milz




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 11 04:35:20 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:35:20 -0000
Subject: Slytherin Fight Song (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9b0ded+8eff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0mu8+3dqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16363

Slytherin Fight Song

To the tune of the Michigan State (Spartan) Fight Song 

(the Spartans being among the more Slytheriny of ancient cultures...)

Dedicated to Niccolo Machiavelli

Salazar's House is at Hogwarts, we're the dorm that knows it all
We are known for our ambition, we love to see opponents crawl
Slytherin brooms can't be blurted, all through the game in flight
If we should fall behind, flash that green light!

Scheme to win with Slytherin
Watch the plot keep thick'ning
We don't care if it's obscene, ends justify the means Rah! Rah! Rah!
See our team is snitchnipping, we will finesse this game
Might! Might! Rah! Makes Right! Victory for Slytherin!

  - CMC





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Apr 11 04:33:42 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:33:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] dumbledore to die?!
References: <9avqp9+o64n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3DEA6.21FA015E@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16364



clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk wrote:

> Most of the rumour pages out there are saying that Dumbledore will
> die. I guess this would show the full extent of mr V's power (?).
> Dumbledore IS getting older, but is Voldey getting stronger
> (obviously i mean stronger than before lil' Harry got in his way)? I
> would appreciate your thoughts on this... :)

I don't know about that....Dumbledore seems to be the father that's present in most if not all fairy tales. Because, essentiall even though it pains me to say it, that's all HP is. A story. ::hears gasps..you mean it's not real?!:: There has
been no indication in cannon of Dumbledores failing health.

I think he'll be around for quite a while. IMO there just hasn't been enough indication that something is going to happen. Though, I may eat my words, as there was no indication that Cedric would die. Though he did have a bit more page time
in GoF....

Jamieson
~~who took the HP Obession test earlier today and is 82% obesessed!!! Yay!!! Can you believe that I'm happy about that? It was the highlight of my day!!!~~~


>

>

"....dream harder, dream true..."





From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 04:45:18 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:45:18 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b0mfr+vss9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0ngu+f5ug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16365

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
>  linman6868 at a... wrote:
>  
> >because of the fight, Ron doesn't know what's coming in the 
> >first task,
> 
> He didn't know about dragons but he must have known it would be 
> something dangerous and he must have known half the school had 
Potter 
> Stinks" buttons, he must have know his best friend was miserable. 
> What did he do to help? Nothing.   
> 
Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But Harry 
wasn't allowing him too. There have been some good posts regarding 
this exact same issue just recently that you might want to read :-)

> >so the sight of those dragons must have been a pretty 
> >potent cure for his case of envy. 
> 
> True
>  
> > It's pretty clear, even by looking solely through Ron's point of 
> > view, that Harry and Ron have *both* something to answer for 
> > concerning their protracted fight. 
> 
> That's  not clear to me at all. Ron was 100% in the wrong Harry 
100% 
> in the right. I think Harry was very restrained, I would have 
knocked 
> Ron's block off.

Yes, Ron was 100% wrong in STARTING the fight but not in extending it 
for the length of time it did. JKR herself said that Harry's pride 
was to blame for prolonging the fight in the Dec. Times article 
(there have been posts about that article a while back if you are 
interested), and as I have said before JKR IS the HP God :-)




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Apr 11 04:45:41 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:45:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
References: <9b0ekc+lesb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD3E174.24F8BD12@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16366

Hello everyone!!!

Heres my view on fanfic, it's pretty simple actually.

Fanfic enables us to put our imagination to the page.We've all read the implications of Ginny having a crush on Harry, but in Fanfic, we can write about it.

Fanfic is all about freedom, and perhaps learning more about the characters we hold so dear. For, in our own delving of the subconscious, we're bound to learn something

Hugs
Jamieson

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Wed Apr 11 05:20:26 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:20:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
Message-ID: <20010411052026.6F3A536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16367

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From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 05:48:36 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:48:36 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <3AD3DEA6.21FA015E@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9b0r7k+c300@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16368

Jamieson:"I don't know about that....Dumbledore seems to be the father 
that's present in most if not all fairy tales. Because, essentiall 
even though it pains me to say it, that's all HP is. A story. ::hears 
gasps..you mean it's not real?!:: There has
been no indication in cannon of Dumbledores failing health.
 
I think he'll be around for quite a while. IMO there just hasn't 
been enough indication that something is going to happen. Though, I 
may eat my words, as there was no indication that Cedric would die. 
Though he did have a bit more page time."

Dumbledore will probably die to symbolize Harry's passage into full 
independence. Harry will lose his mentor and protector just before 
Harry's ready, and he'll have to carry on without him.  it will be 
Harry's worst moment and cruelest test.  The analogy might be Obi Wan 
or Yoda ("no more training do you need"). I suspect that Dumbledore 
will die in such a way as to pass the torch on to Harry. (The Yoda 
thing again)

I don't expect much warning when Dumbledore dies. Of course we suspect 
he's going to be killed by Voldemort instead of a more prosaic death.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 06:15:36 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:15:36 -0000
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <20010411052026.6F3A536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9b0sq8+4t8r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16369

Echo:"Am I the only person in the world that just wants to give Draco 
a big hug and mother him?  Throughout all 4 books, I can't find one 
shred of evidence that L. Malfoy loves his son, or even cares about 
him past the whole "keeping the family honour" bit. IMVHO, I think 
that Draco is lonely. When he "hurts" his arm because he insulted 
BuckBeak, I don't think that getting Buckbeak killed or whatever was 
his only reason for acting more hurt than he was. I think that he was 
using it as an excuse, but deep down he just wanted compassion. I 
can't find many parts in the books besides that, that really show 
anyone showing him compassion. With a father like L. Malfoy, one would 
think it would hard to be anything than what Draco is. I'm not saying 
it excuses his behavior, but I do think it would be nice in future 
books to see, in the least, glimpses of another side of Draco."

You're probably right in the main, but Draco's still a despicable 
little @#$!  The same dynamic is likely true of Lucius also.  At some 
point reasons don't matter anymore.

Not everybody who grows up in that kind of environment ends up 
following in Daddy's footsteps.  Some people are cowed, whipped, and 
end up more like Neville.  A lucky few rebel against what they see in 
their fathers and go to the good side. The thing about Draco and 
Lucius, though, is there is some kind of bond.  Several times Draco 
talks about things his father has told him and advice he's gotten from 
Daddy. It's not the kind of love that turns someone towards the light, 
but a kid will seize on just about any kind of attention.

We haven't seen anything good about Draco.  The final scene in GoF 
showed Draco in about his worst light ever, gloating over the death of 
a good person and taunting good characters with it.

Draco's actually fairly popular, especially in the fanfic world, where 
he's basically reinvented to make him acceptable. IMO it's very hard 
to find hope for him in canon.

How might Draco be saved? Maybe, just maybe, when Draco sees evil up 
close and personal, and some of the blood spatters his own robes, the 
reality of it will wake him up. Then he might become a reluctant good 
guy, like Snape. Up till now it's been "the bad guys are cooler" 
abstract kind of thing. I'm not holding my breath.





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 11 06:29:45 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:29:45 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <9b0ild+6hvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16370

(Oh, good grief, Vander Ark's weighing in on the canon thing... 
Delete! Quickly!)

Let me say right up front that I do not read fanfic. Anyone who's 
read things I've written over the past, what is it, a year?, knows 
that I will undoubtedly come down pretty strongly in favor of keeping 
the canon free from outside interpretation. And I know some of you 
quite well, having read the things that YOU have written over the 
past--can it really only be a year?! But I digress--and I know that 
you'll just shake your head and say "There goes that crazy Lexicon 
guy, who doesn't know what he's missing..." or tell me that hey, I do 
my own form of interpretation, so there. 

So I could go on and on, explaining my point of view and trying to 
convince all you out there with wonderful examples and reasoning. I 
could. But I don't have to. These last few posts have done it for me. 

You read fanfic to get new insights into the characters? You suddenly 
see Draco in a new light? Great! I have no problem with that, if 
that's what you like. But do you see what's happening? You're seeing 
a different Draco from the one in the books. Again, that's great if 
that doesn't bother you. You are entitled to a new version of Draco 
or anyone else if you like. But you have to realize that this new 
version of Draco IS NOT THE VERSION THAT'S IN THE BOOKS. It's not. 
The characters in the books are what they are, they aren't real 
people with all sorts of depth that JKR hasn't found space to 
include. JKR doesn't write most of her characters with the kind of 
depth you are inventing for them. She might in the future, but she 
hasn't so far.

Please please please understand that I don't care one whit that 
fanfic does this, and I am delighted that writing and reading fanfic 
provides all this additional emotional connection and opportunity for 
some of you to explore human nature and enjoy the Harry Potter books. 
We all have our ways of being obsessed. Believe me, I have my own 
ways, as most of you know. 

But fanfic, as the past few posts have clearly stated, changes your 
perception of the characters, and in ways which almost without fail 
the author did not intend. Think about the book Jane Eyre, which I 
happen to love. There was a novel written some years back which 
interpreted the same story from a totally different point of view, 
one which totally changed the way the characters of Rochester and his 
mad wife would be seen. Suddenly the mad wife was the victim, the one 
you felt sad for, and so on. Hey, it's a great book and it does 
exactly what fanfic does: it offers a whole new interpretation, a 
whole new perspective, and if updates the whole plot with more modern 
sensibilities, which feels kind of good. But it certainly doesn't 
present a correct interpretation when you think about what the 
original author intended. In fact, reading The Wide Sargasso Sea 
pretty much wrecked the original for me, since now I can't ever read 
Jane Eyre the same way again. I now have this interpretation by 
someone else tainting my impressions of characters I loved so much. 
For some folks, my wife for one, that makes Jane Eyre all the more 
interesting, and that's fine. For them.

That kind of coloring of what's actually there is what I do not want 
to have happen to me. I don't WANT to feel sympathetic toward Draco 
or Snape. That's not the way the characters are portrayed in the 
books. (No, it isn't; they're stereotypes, let's face it). I want to 
hold on to the actual characters, the ones JKR gives us, even if 
they're stereotypical, and if she suprises me with a twist somewhere 
along the line--if Snape turns out to be really a nice guy that we've 
all misunderstood along with Harry, for example--I will be delighted 
to let HER have that honor. Until then, I don't want someone else 
doing it for me.

So by all means, enjoy fanfic. I'm really, honestly not against it at 
all for anyone (but me). But understand that, as these posts have so 
eloquently pointed out, you do lose something special along with the 
things you gain. You forever lose JKR's own version of the characters 
she has created. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
the best Harry Potter resource anywhere (at least *I* think so)
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 06:38:16 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:38:16 -0000
Subject: Prefects 
In-Reply-To: <20010410145807.34652.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b0u4o+fcf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16371

I suspect three prefects from each house. A 5th, 6th, and 7th 
year. Head boy and girl may or may not be prefects first/still. It is 
unlikely that Percy was prefect in his fifth year over all the 6th 
and 7th years. [if only one prefect] Such a grand bathroom for only 4 
students? [probably not]  That would mean a total of 12 prefects. 
That would be 6 per compartment on the Hogwarts express. [If they all 
took the train in] 
 
Bugg 


> --- "Lisa" <linman6868 at a...> skrev:
> > Query:  is there only one Prefect per House?  
> 
Christian Stub? <prince_galrion at y...> wrote:
> 
> Doubt it - it would seem prudent to have one prefect of each gender 
at least.  Also, in PS, Chapter Six "The Journey from Platform Nine 
and Three Quarters" (p. 72 UK paperback-edition), the following 
appears (it's Percy talking): 
> "'Can't stay long, Mother,' he said.  'I'm up front, the Prefects 
have got two compartments to themselves-'" ... 
If there were only four Prefects plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they 
would need only one compartment. If you have eight prefects plus Head 
Boy and Head Girl, they fit nicely into two compartments, with a bit
> of room to spare.  If Head Boy and Head Girl are included in the 
eight prefects (but I don't think they are - just a gut-feeling), 
they still need two compartments.
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 08:01:24 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:01:24 -0000
Subject: Ginny.  Was Re: Ron's Jealousy of Harry
In-Reply-To: <9b0d43+c0qb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b130k+c5kh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16372

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> I "chart reviewed" Ginny recently and I have a completely different 
> and more favorable impression of her now.
> 
> :-)Milz (who profusely apologizes for the medical examples and for 
> tainting this forum with dirty words like "insurance companies", 
> "HMOs", "care givers", "reimburse")

Milz, I am a big Ginny fan, so are you going to share the results 
with us?  I'd be interested to hear what you have to say (and I know 
there's probably a few others out there who would be too).

Catherine




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Wed Apr 11 09:28:14 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:28:14 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9avdi2+d542@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b183e+tk2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16373

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

lea_macleod said:

> > Go get the book, Catherine, and read the chapter that ends with 
> > Javert?s death (I only read the french version, so I don?t know 
the 
> > English title, sorry). That chapter was a revelation to me, and I 
> > think it may be to all people working in a legal profession. 
> > 
> > 
> Yes, I do need to go back to it - I did say it was a number of years 
> ago.  But I still stand by my comparative comments on black/white 
> issues, ordered worlds etc.
> (By the way, I don't know if you knew, but I'm training to be a 
> lawyer at the moment!)
> Catherine

Yes I knew, I appreciated the way you answered on the MoM Judicial 
system thread in defense of all lawyers in general...

Don?t laugh at me, but I keep a photocopy of that particular chapter 
in the desk drawer in my office, and I read through it now and then... 
not that I?m that much concerned with life-and-death-decisions (yet 
:-)), but I think Les Mis (and Javert?s character) does appeal in a 
special way to legal professionals (some would do well to let 
themselves and their view of the world be a bit more influenced by 
that book!)

But I realise this is getting really OT, so I think we had better stop 
before one of the Mods turns us into bouncing ferrets - let?s go back 
to HP-realted things, ok?




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 10:34:04 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <9b0sq8+4t8r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010411103404.8795.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16374

> How might Draco be saved? Maybe, just maybe, 
> when Draco sees evil up close and personal, 
> and some of the blood spatters his own robes,
> the reality of it will wake him up... 
> Up till now it's been "the bad guys are cooler" 
> abstract kind of thing. I'm not holding my breath.

I suspect that he also doesn't really understand the power
relationship between Lord V. and the DE's.  He's used to seeing
Lucius in positions of authority and respect, being treated
deferentially by one and all due to the family wealth and rank.  The
first sight of a cringing Daddy grovelling to Lord V. is going to be
a big jolt.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 10:39:45 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:39:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010411103945.9210.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16375

> So by all means, enjoy fanfic. I'm really, honestly not against it
> at all for anyone (but me). But understand that, as these posts
have
> so eloquently pointed out, you do lose something special along with
> the things you gain. You forever lose JKR's own version of the
> characters she has created. 


Breaking the rules to say nothing more than I agree with this
excellent essay.

Actually, I fibbed a bit: I will also say that I think Snape is more
than a stereotype, he's a test of Harry's maturity in understanding
that you don't have to be a nice guy to be a good guy.  As I said
before, Harry is still at the stage of his life when his personal
likes get in the way of how he perceives someone (ie, he's still not
100% or even 90% sure of Snape at the end of GoF.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Wed Apr 11 11:08:20 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:08:20 -0000
Subject: Javert/Snape parallels
In-Reply-To: <20010410174421.56252.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b1dv4+5ebp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16376

 Andrea  wrote:

> --- lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> > I think the life-saving-and-being-indebted-to-
> > your-worst-enemy-parallel between 
> > Javert and Snape is so obvious that it has lead us
> > to parallel their  characters and cases entirely. We shouldn?t do 
that.The parallel ends  here.
> 
> Hrm.  Well, I agree to a certain extent, but I do see
> parallels in them stil.  I don't think Snape has
> "gotten over" or worked through the issues raised by
> his debt to James.  In many ways, he's simply shut off
> his brain to that portion, until of course he was
> confronted head on with Harry, who we've always heard
> looks extraordinarily like James.  
> 
> True, Snape definitely handles this differently from
> Javert.  But I do see Snape as still having a
> very difficult time struggling with his world view.

------------
Yes, I agree. I did some reading last night (NOT HP for a change) and 
I realised that Snape is *NOT* Javert. They are alike as being 
confronted with the same conflict. This conflict occurs because they 
experience something that upsets their world views utterly. But 
they?re not alike at all in their handling of it.

heidi wrote:

>He (Javert) actually  does have choices,  but selecting any of them 
>would force himself to   reconsider his ideals and perspectives, and 
>even the act of  reconsideration would be tantemount to a violation 
>of such ideals and perspectives, and therefore, the weak, cowardly 
>decision is made to  not engage in such self-examination.  Snape, on 
>the other hand, I believe, has reconsidered his  perspecitves, and 
>probably his ideals . And in so doing, he has made brave decisions 
>that are  fully opposite to the idea of cowardice.  

Yes! Snape?s ideals and perspectives have probably been shaken more 
severely and thoroughly than anyone else?s in all the books. He?s been 
through the most fundamental process of reconsideration you can 
imagine. Hate him if you like for his unfairness towards Harry - in 
the end you will realise (along with Harry, I hope) you?ve done him 
enormous injustice.

--------------------------
> Oh, I just had an interesting thought.  Snape became a
> Death Eater and then later turned back to the Light
> <g> and began working as a sort of double-agent.  What
> if his initial turn to working for Voldemort was as a
> way to put his world-view back in order after James
> screwed around with it?  (Andrea II)

Sounds good, but I think Snape joining the DE wasn?t much of a 
long-pondered and autonomous decision. Remember when he joined them, 
he was very young (JKR said he?s in his late thirties at the end of 
GoF), and he was in a Slytherin gang, and he knew curses before he 
even came to Hogwarts (where would he have learned them but in his 
family?), so his socialisation was throughout Slytherin/Dark Arts. 

I believe *the* decision of his life was not joining the DE but 
turning back to *the Light*. Let?s go looking for a reason for *this*. 
It may be found in the James-Snape-relationship.
----------------

Amanda wrote (longwindedly on her favourite subject):

>I've been pondering, as I threatened. Javert "broke," I think, 
because
> he spent his whole life in that black/white rules mode.Yes,it can be 
>perceived as a kind of cowardice; for Javert, it was armor, and it 
>failed him.

> Okay. Snape. I think he has not always been so rules-oriented. I 
>think he's in some sort of "pause" mode. His reliance on the 
>importance of rules seems to me not on the same scale as Javert's. 

>Rules and such seem important to Snape, but on a more intellectual, 
>less "gut" level than they do to Javert. For Javert, they are the 
>fabric of the universe. For Snape, they are a non-emotional means to 
>view and interact with the world. 

Very well pondered, Amanda. I?ve got nothing to add to that.

>I think in his past he was not the contained, controlled man we see 
>now; it is always an invoking of the past, of old associations or old 
>relationships, that provoke the emotion in him, including the insane 
>emotional scene in PoA.

I don?t think he?s a controlled, contained man even now. Alright, he?s 
not exactly keen on talking to other people about his personal 
problems (do we know, though? What about him and Prof. McGonagall 
sitting in front of a cosy fireplace on a rainy saturday afternoon, 
having some tea, immersed deeply in conversation about personal moral 
and ethical standards? I don?t think that?s entirely absurd)

But still, Snape hardly ever makes a secret of his feelings towards 
anyone, even Dumbledore. But instead of appreciating it as an honest, 
straightforward, if slightly un-diplomatic attitude, he experiences it 
as a weakness. 

Just a side-thought: I don?t think Snape makes a good liar. Meaning 
he?s probably good at it technically (having been a spy), but I?m 
quite sure he abhors it, inwardly.

>I don't, for the record, think the main irritant to Snape was ever a
>lack of public recognition. Snape has never indicated that he assigns
>the slightest importance to what anyone else thinks, saving probably
>Dumbledore and McGonagall (and perhaps a few other teachers). The 
>people he values know his choices and worth; I doubt he gives a 
>tinker's damn for the opinions of people he doesn't value. His 
>ambition, I think, follows such private avenues, and does not 
>actively seek public acclaim (although he, like most of us, probably 
>wouldn't mind...).

Yes, doesn?t Quirrel say something like "he did make himself 
unpopular", when he explains to Harry at the end of HPPS that Snape 
didn?t want to kill him but saved his life. Snape obviously didn?t 
mind.

But how does this fit with Lupin?s statement at the end of PoA that 
"The loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard"?
---------------------------

And now things were getting out of hand on this thread! 

Just because someone made a connection between your two favourite 
books, don?t go and try to force them into the same pattern! It won?t 
work anyway. The books may have *nothing* in common except that you 
like them both!

heidi wrote:

> I've *tried* to place the HP  characters into Les Miz - both the 
>book and the musical - and I cannot get it to work. 

I must say that doesn?t surprise me at all.




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 11:31:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:31:59 -0000
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather
In-Reply-To: <9b0mta+nivu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b1fbf+a8a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16377

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 4/10/01 11:09:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > pennylin at s... writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > I think this is very possible.  Why is this necessarily a bad 
> thing?
> > > What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to succeed
> > > academically because it will open doors for her down the road?  
> She may
> > > be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than 
> wanting
> > > success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or 
> athletically)?
> > > 
> > 
> > And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting recognition 
among your family and peers for your accomplishments?  How is it any 
different from wanting financial stability? 
> > 
> How is it that one person's wants make them more susceptible to the 
> Dark side than those of someone else?
> > 
> > I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that 
different.
> > 
> > ~Moey
> 
> You make a very good point!!! Ron's wants and desires are given a  
> negative spin, whereas Hermione's are viewed in a positive way. 
> However, both of their ambitions are driven by the need for a 
feeling 
> of self-worth. 
> 
> I don't know who is more susceptible to the Dark side or if they 
will even venture in that direction (I like to be surprized or 
disappointed). But neither of them has been offered a chance for 
their dreams to come true. Ron came the closest with the Mirror of 
Erised. 
> But even he, refused to return to it the next night. Hermione 
hasn't. 
> 
> I agree with whoever said that it is a shame that we never got to 
see 
> Hermione's Mirror of Erised.
> 

I don't think either Ron or Hermione are "susceptible to the Dark 
Side" at all. So, as far as I'm concerned, comparing their ambitions 
is interesting in itself - not as a prelude to deciding which one is 
likely to "succumb" to Dark Side temptations.
Having made this clear, I can now point out that the great difference 
between Ron and Hermione in their ambtitions, is that Ron does 
absolutely nothing to fulfill his ambition. He wants to shine - but 
he doesn't make exceptionall efforts in any area that we can see - 
not school work, not Quidditch, not even playing practical jokes.. 
He feels miserable at times, but I'm not sure whether he doesn't care 
enough , or has too little faith in himself, to make an effort
Hermione, OTOH, grits her teeth and puts all she's got into 
accomplishing what she has set herself to accomplish. I don't see it 
as an unhealthy obsession, but as a determination to succeed coupled 
with sincere intellectual interest.


Naama






From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 11 12:13:29 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:13:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Compassion for Draco?
References: <9b0sq8+4t8r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD44A69.90C79B15@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16378

Jim Ferer wrote:

> Echo:"Am I the only person in the world that just wants to give Draco
> a big hug and mother him?

Probably. And I hope you've had your shots.

> How might Draco be saved? Maybe, just maybe, when Draco sees evil up
> close and personal, and some of the blood spatters his own robes, the
> reality of it will wake him up. Then he might become a reluctant good
> guy, like Snape. Up till now it's been "the bad guys are cooler"
> abstract kind of thing. I'm not holding my breath.

About the only shred of possibility I've seen for this is Draco's
reaction in book 1, in the Forbidden Forest, when he ran screaming from
the thing drinking the unicorn blood. That might have been the first
time he'd really confronted a truly evil thing, and he was terrified and
fled.

However, given that that was in book 1, and he's still a nasty little
*hmmm* through the end of book 4, I don't think the scare acted as any
sort of real deterrent or wake-up call.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 11 12:27:40 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:27:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
References: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD44DBB.8D66363B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16379

I, too, will break rules for the purpose of applauding Steve's
well-worded post on this! Mostly because I think it's a very good
clarification of what I've been trying to say, and we're clearly a
minority, so I wanted to be visibly supportive. We aren't trying to
disparage fanfic, we just want to restrict ourselves to the author's
view of her characters until she's through developing them (in this
case, after book 7's out).

--Amanda, who also dislikes music videos, because they forever affect
the images she associates with songs

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> (Oh, good grief, Vander Ark's weighing in on the canon thing...
> Delete! Quickly!)

<excellent and well-written post snipped>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 13:47:01 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:47:01 -0000
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <3AD44A69.90C79B15@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b1n8l+7sn5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16380

Compassion for Draco?  A very interesting idea indeed.  Do I have 
compassion for him?  No.  Do I hate him, though?  Nope.

I agree with those who say that seeing evil up close and personal may 
make Draco change his mind about some of the things he's been brought 
up to believe.  I believe that, although Draco is a bully, he is also 
even more of a sniveling coward.  He rarely acts on his own, as his 
moronic sidekicks are two big and strong guys.  He is also terrified 
of the Forbidden Forest, as well as Moody after the ferret incident.  
He always wants to run to Daddy, because he cannot handle things on 
his own.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Draco has yet to be faced 
with a situation where he will have to think and do for himself, and I 
believe that it will happen.  When it does, a somewhat different Draco 
will emerge (maybe a Snape-like Draco).  Daddy can't shield him 
forever, and I think that, while Draco does know about the Dark Arts, 
he does not really know what Death Eaters do - Cedric's death is not a 
reality for him.  He's a wimp who wouldn't be strong enough to handle 
Voldie's inner crowd.  Can you imagine him cutting his own hand off?  
I sure can't!

--Jenny




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 13:52:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:52:20 -0500
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
References: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD46194.FB977F20@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16381

Hi --

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> You read fanfic to get new insights into the characters? You suddenly
> see Draco in a new light? Great! I have no problem with that, if
> that's what you like. But do you see what's happening? You're seeing
> a different Draco from the one in the books. Again, that's great if
> that doesn't bother you. You are entitled to a new version of Draco
> or anyone else if you like. But you have to realize that this new
> version of Draco IS NOT THE VERSION THAT'S IN THE BOOKS. It's not.
> The characters in the books are what they are, they aren't real
> people with all sorts of depth that JKR hasn't found space to
> include. JKR doesn't write most of her characters with the kind of
> depth you are inventing for them. She might in the future, but she
> hasn't so far.

How do you know?  How do you know she doesn't intend to redeem Draco and
that the hints of redemptive possibility that Heidi picked up on for her
fanfic were not *exactly* what JKR intended?  How can you possibly say
that your interpretation of the canon is precisely 100% exactly what JKR
intended?  If all 1100+ of us are reading the same books, Steve, AND as
you seem to imply, there is only one and only one interpretation of
Snape (JKR's), then how can there *possibly* be all these
interpretations of Snape that we come up with?  The reason is simple.
Everyone brings their own experiences & perceptions to literary
interpretation.  That's the point!!

You believe that Snape is a stereotype.  There are lots of other people,
including Amanda who spoke out in support of your post, who think Snape
is anything *but* a stereotype.  Which one of you is correct?  JKR
hasn't *said* that he is or isn't a stereotype.

I don't see what the point of a literary discussion group is if not to
discuss all the various interpretations that can be brought to bear on a
character or subplot or scene.  I will defer to Ebony and other
English-major types, but IMO, it's very very very rare that the reading
public ever knows exactly what the author intended with respect to every
aspect of their works.  I'm writing a biography of an author right now,
and let me assure you, I puzzle *daily* over what she meant and intended
with virtually all aspects of her work.  Her work is complete & has been
for nearly 60 years.  She left some drafts, some correspondence, some
notes.  But, you still can't expect that I or anyone else could ever
absolutely 100% definitively piece together what she intended when she
wrote each & every scene in her books.

> But fanfic, as the past few posts have clearly stated, changes your
> perception of the characters, and in ways which almost without fail
> the author did not intend.

Again, I'm completely mystified that you believe that it's possible to
discern JKR's intent, particularly since the canon is only a little over
halfway done at this point.

> That kind of coloring of what's actually there is what I do not want
> to have happen to me. I don't WANT to feel sympathetic toward Draco
> or Snape. That's not the way the characters are portrayed in the
> books. (No, it isn't; they're stereotypes, let's face it).

You might want to say that it's *your* individual personal
interpretation that these characters are portrayed as stereotypes.  It
sounds to me like you want to hold on to Harry's POV and *his*
interpretations of the characters at all costs.

> You forever lose JKR's own version of the characters she has created.

But, everyone has their own personal version of her characters.  Take a
look at the character discussions that have gone on over the last 6 mths
or so.  We all put our own spin on the characters.  They're the same
characters that JKR created.  But, everyone looks at them in a different
way.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I think you've completely
missed the point of the posts yesterday regarding fanfic versus canon.
Some fanfic is poorly-written or departs so completely from the canon
that it isn't even recognizable.  But, there are lots of fanfic pieces
that can challenge a person to go back & re-read canon with a new
perspective (a perspective that might very well be just as valid in
JKR's eyes as the one you originally held I might add) -- it adds a
completely new dimension to the way you enjoy the books.  It's that sort
of fanfic that is great.  It's just a different medium from you & I
posted pro/con reasons for the student numbers being what they are.  I
could just as easily create a fanfic that illustrates my point on that
very same issue.

Until you can interview JKR and ask specifically, did you intend XYZ
when you wrote this scene ... I don't see how one can possibly argue
that her intent is clear.  Even then, it would be good to have a
follow-up question that says, "Do you think ABC is a valid alternate
interpretation of your scene?"  She's an author and doubtless would
consider that there is more than one interpretation for everything in
her books; there's even more than one path that she could have chosen
(having written myself, I can say that you sometimes weigh multiple
valid courses of action but eventually must choose only one).  Anyway,
I'm completely opposed to the notion that there is only one JKR
interpretation of these characters and books and I'm especially opposed
to the notion that this one interpretation is discernible by people
other than JKR herself.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 13:57:14 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:57:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Compassion for Draco?
Message-ID: <9a.12b40c28.2805bcba@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16382

<vbg> Yay!!!! I'm not the only canon-Draco lover here!!! All he needs is a 
hug and some manners lessons, and he'd be fine, I think. Well, I'm going back 
into my lovely little closet now. And no, I don't think that Lucius really 
loves Draco. Maybe he just planned to have him around the same time the 
Potters had their baby so that Draco could either defeat and kill him by 
betraying him as a friend, or try and get him to go to the dark side. Or 
maybe he's...well, I've run out of theories......LOL. NOW I"m going back to 
my closet.
Sitting on the floor~
Wicky Gheesha
Slytherin
130% Obsessed



From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  7 10:45:31 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 05:45:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] idiotic letter in todays paper
References: <9al1o7+2mgj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE48XRzgEvDHrBxCXX50000054d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16383

I'll give 'em a piece of my mind!  I'm in the mood for writing an intelligent dis letter!  I'm good at this kinda stuff.  Don't worry, I'll send y'all a copy of it.  Don't sue me b/c this is so short.  Thankx!

~Adrienne~
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joym999 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 1:26 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] idiotic letter in todays paper


  Todays Washington Post has a letter from a reader in Arlington, VA, 
  in response to the Post article last week about Nancy Stouffer.  This 
  idiot goes on about how although she likes the HP books, there are a 
  lot of similarities between them and other books she has read, which 
  "makes her think".  The similarities she points to are pretty vague.  
  In a book called  "The Mystery of the Lost Village", there is a 
  reporter named Rita Neville who follows the hero around and bothers 
  him.  In another book, "Wizard's Hall" the main character called 
  Henry goes to a wizards school and a magical object sort of like the 
  sorting hat looks into his personality.

  There are lots of books about kid witches and wizards and in some 
  they go to school.  And there are lots of people named Rita and 
  Neville and lots of books with annoying reporters in them.  For the 
  Post to actually publish this stupid letter is ridiculous!  Anyway 
  the URL is:

  http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46988-2001Apr5.html

  Someone should write to the Post and complain about them giving voice 
  to any old anti-HP fruitloop who crawls out of the woodwork.  I would 
  do it myself, but I promised myself that I would not write letters to 
  the editor about anything unless it directly concerned my 
  professional field, as I run the danger of becoming one of those 
  crazy, cackling old curmudgeons who do nothing but write letters to 
  the editor all day long.


        ^
       / \
      /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
     /     \
  __/       \__

  *\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

    "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
    "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
  they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

  *\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 14:28:23 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:28:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ron's Phobias
In-Reply-To: <3AD3CD0A.80492C2C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010411142823.31324.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16384

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
wrote:
> I was really just arguing that I'm not sure he's
> truly *overcome* his
> fears of spiders.  He's still apprehensive around
> them [snip snip] But, I guess I interpret >
"confronting &
> overcoming* a fear
> more narrowly than others.  That's all.

Confronted, yes.  Overcame, no.  You gotta give poor
Ron credit where credit is due.  He has an absolute
phobia of spiders, and yet he follows a line of them
into the Forbidden Forest, where he *knows* a ton of
them are likely congregating, all to help Harry and
Hermione. (Remember, it's looking at Hermione's empty
seat in class that pursuades him to go.)  

Just because he didn't overcome the fear for all time
doesn't detract from his incredible courage in this
circumstance.  I've got a phobia of snakes as strong
as Ron's of spiders, and I can honestly say that I
don't think I would follow even one snake *anywhere*,
even to help my friends.  Hopefully, I would rise
above my fear like Ron did.  But even if I did the
once, my fear wouldn't necessarily be *gone*.  But
doesn't that make the courage required even greater?


Andrea II 

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From ciircee at netscape.net  Wed Apr 11 14:53:04 2001
From: ciircee at netscape.net (ciircee at netscape.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:53:04 -0000
Subject: Ron
Message-ID: <9b1r4g+n69g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16385

Hey all!  I'm Circe, and I'm new here, but I probably won't stick 
around, I've had some very bad times on lists...but I had to come and 
defend Ron. :)

First off, Harry/Ron's fight in GoF: Harry does just as much to 
prolong the fight.  Remember what happened when Ron accidentally 
interrupt Sirius's visit before the first task?  Was Ron jealous?  
Yeah, I think Hermione hit the nail on the head.  And I, having two 
younger brothers, found his reaction to Harry being Champion to be 
very reasonable.  He's fourteen.  For me, that explains a lot of his 
behavior in the fourth book.  Puberty, anyone? lol

But Ron is a good kid, really.  He takes over the research and work on 
Beaky's appeal.  He's helping Hagrid and Hermione.  To me, that seemed 
to be his way of telling Hermione how sorry he was about the fight.  
Like his fight with Harry, I think that Ron wanted to make up but 
didn't know quite how to go about it.  

We see that Ron is smart--the impediment curse, chess, finding the 
right flying key in book one, passing his tests with good scores.
He's brave: Facing down the giant spiders (his worst fear!) facing the 
boggart, standing up to Sirius even though his leg is broken, going 
down to the Chamber of Secrets to help save Ginny --staying behind to 
move rock to get Harry and Ginny out, going to face Fluffy and the 
enchantments in the first book.
Finally, he's loyal: He helped Harry with the tasks (once the fight 
was over) he stood up to Black with Harry--despite injury, he always 
stands up to Malfoy when he insults Hermione and even Neville, he's 
overcome Wizard-World predjudice like werewolves and giants, because 
of Lupin and Hagrid, decent guys that he knows and won't let the 
standard social opinion affect the way he feels about them.

Does Ron have faults?  Yeah, he's got a quick temper (we see it most 
with Malfoy) and he can be irrational (though he's got a reason with 
Krum, he just doesn't seem to know what his reason is ;)) and he can 
be a bit impulsive, like flinging the crocodile heart at Malfoy and 
calling Snape names (in defence of his friends).  But that's what 
makes Ron a neat character and not some Mary-Sue.  

Whew, Circe is wordy today folks! lol




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Apr 11 15:01:51 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:01:51 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
Message-ID: <F59N3Isam5R4r3mbfJ8000048ad@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16386

>You read fanfic to get new insights into the characters? You suddenly
>see Draco in a new light? Great! I have no problem with that, if
>that's what you like. But do you see what's happening? You're seeing
>a different Draco from the one in the books.

That's *your* opinion. Not all fanfic interpretations of a character are
so 'different' from the ones in the book, you know. And anyway, we all
have a certain views of a character, wether we read fanfic or not.
Nobody's ever gonna see for example Draco *exactly* the way JKR sees
him.

I read fanfic to get enticed into another person's view on the books and
characters, to have someone tell me a story about characters I
[somewhat] know. But I can always clearly remember that the Draco [or
Harry, or Ron] in this story is not [necesarily] the one in the books,
but rather the author's view on them, just as I have mine.

It's *discussions* that make me change the way I see a character,
because in discussions, views and opinions are backed up by facts, and
I'm given a reason to believe/adopt a certain interpretation of a
character.

Fanfic characterisation isn't always wildly off from the book's. Often,
yes, but that's because a lot of HP fanfic is, IMO, not really good.
Good fanfic characterisation is supported by canon.

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Wed Apr 11 15:26:00 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:26:00 -0000
Subject: Javert/Snape parallels
In-Reply-To: <9b1dv4+5ebp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b1t28+gh8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16387

I feel a bit stupid posting for the third time in a row on the same 
thread today, but this one will be short for a change.

I just realised I have to be off-line from now til next Tuesday. So if 
I don?t reply for a while, it?s not because I?ve lost my interest in 
this thread (or others). Be assured I will drag it up again next week.

Have a good Easter time, all of you. See you next week.

Lea 




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 15:25:08 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:25:08 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <3AD46194.FB977F20@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b1t0k+re22@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
<long snip> 
 
> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I think you've completely
> missed the point of the posts yesterday regarding fanfic versus 
canon.
> Some fanfic is poorly-written or departs so completely from the 
canon
> that it isn't even recognizable.  But, there are lots of fanfic 
pieces
> that can challenge a person to go back & re-read canon with a new
> perspective (a perspective that might very well be just as valid in
> JKR's eyes as the one you originally held I might add) -- it adds a
> completely new dimension to the way you enjoy the books.  It's that 
sort
> of fanfic that is great.  It's just a different medium from you & I
> posted pro/con reasons for the student numbers being what they 
are.  I
> could just as easily create a fanfic that illustrates my point on 
that
> very same issue.

I understand your point on fanfic serving as an illustration of an 
opinion, but that's not the aspect of fanfics that Steve is afraid of 
(I think). 
It's simply not true that fanfic is "just a different medium" for 
explaining an interpretation. A fanfic, is first and foremost, just 
that ? a FIC, that is fiction, a work of art, a creation, and as SUCH 
it does "contaminate" the original work of art produced by the 
original author. When you read a fanfic, you read (and therefore 
absorb, to some measure) about the characters doing and thinking and 
feeling. These images and impressions are stored up somewhere in your 
mind.  
Steve is afraid (I hope you don't mind me speaking for you, Steve) 
that to that layered and associative repository of things Harry et 
al. did, thought and felt will be added the images absorbed from 
fanfics. And these images, even if the interpretation they illustrate 
is perfectly correct, are NOT original images. You can't escape from 
that ? they are created by a different mind than that of the original 
author.


> I'm completely opposed to the notion that there is only one JKR
> interpretation of these characters and books and I'm especially 
opposed
> to the notion that this one interpretation is discernible by people
> other than JKR herself.

I agree with that wholeheartedly.  

:-)

Naama





From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr 11 15:44:52 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:44:52 -0000
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <20010411103404.8795.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b1u5k+teb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > How might Draco be saved? Maybe, just maybe, 
> > when Draco sees evil up close and personal, 
> > and some of the blood spatters his own robes,
> > the reality of it will wake him up... 
> > Up till now it's been "the bad guys are cooler" 
> > abstract kind of thing. I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> I suspect that he also doesn't really understand the power
> relationship between Lord V. and the DE's.  He's used to seeing
> Lucius in positions of authority and respect, being treated
> deferentially by one and all due to the family wealth and rank.  The
> first sight of a cringing Daddy grovelling to Lord V. is going to be
> a big jolt.
> 
>
I disagree, but the Circle gets the square. :)

I think that Draco knows full well what his father's position entails.

He's threatened at least once to go running to Daddy and have this 
person or that person sacked.  So he knows that Lucius is willing to 
do underhanded things to get rid of people he doesn't want around.

Plus, he also knows what Lucius has in the house, given his behaviour 
in Knockturn Alley.  He knows that Knockturn Alley is the Dark Arts 
section of the area behind the leaky cauldron.

He may have been faking to get attention because he lacks it, but it 
was also in part just plain old malice and stupidity.  If he'd been 
listening, he'd have known not to insult the hippogriff.  Maybe he 
heard it, and decided Hagridd coudln't possibly know what he was 
talking about.  Again, this shows his disregard for anyone outside 
what his perceived circle of knowledge and people says.

Indigo




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 11 16:05:32 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:05:32 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b1vcc+ploq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16390

Steve wrote,

You forever lose JKR's own version of the characters 
> she has created. 
> 

I wonder how fanfic fans, shippers in particular, will feel when 
Books 5, 6 and 7 come out and don't conform to their anticipations? 
There have been some messages previously about what JKR "owes" the 
readers in terms of following up on foreshadowing etc. But it seems 
like some of these expectations are being permaturely fanned by 
fanfic? 

~Rosmerta
who's trying to remember the Italian word for opera fans who sing 
along with the divas. 






From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 16:19:31 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:19:31 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <9b0r7k+c300@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b206j+103hq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16391

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Jamieson:"I don't know about that....Dumbledore seems to be the 
father 
> that's present in most if not all fairy tales. Because, essentiall 
> even though it pains me to say it, that's all HP is. A 
story. ::hears 
> gasps..you mean it's not real?!:: There has
> been no indication in cannon of Dumbledores failing health.
>  
> I think he'll be around for quite a while. IMO there just hasn't 
> been enough indication that something is going to happen. Though, I 
> may eat my words, as there was no indication that Cedric would die. 
> Though he did have a bit more page time."
> 
> Dumbledore will probably die to symbolize Harry's passage into full 
> independence. Harry will lose his mentor and protector just before 
> Harry's ready, and he'll have to carry on without him.  it will be 
> Harry's worst moment and cruelest test.  The analogy might be Obi 
Wan 
> or Yoda ("no more training do you need"). I suspect that Dumbledore 
> will die in such a way as to pass the torch on to Harry. (The Yoda 
> thing again)
> 
> I don't expect much warning when Dumbledore dies. Of course we 
suspect 
> he's going to be killed by Voldemort instead of a more prosaic 
death.


I think it would be good if Draco did die, but i don't believe it 
will happen... :(


Why at the start of GoF didn't Harry write to double d when his scar 
first hurt? He wrote to Sirius instead, seeing him as a father 
figure. I think its highly unlikely, but im not going to rule out the 
possibility that Sirius or Lupin could die. I dont see this happening 
mainly because Harry has allready lost one father. If double d was to 
die, i think it would be more to show that Mr V is stronger than he 
was at the height of his powers before lil harry got in his way.




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 16:28:14 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:28:14 -0000
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <20010411052026.6F3A536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9b20mu+veiq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16392

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> Hey,
> With all these posts about Draco, I just had to put in my 2 sickles 
worth.
> Am I the only person in the world that just wants to give Draco a 
big hug and mother him?
> Throughout all 4 books, I can't find one shred of evidence that L. 
Malfoy loves his son, or even cares about him past the whole "keeping 
the family honour" bit. IMVHO, I think that Draco is lonely. When 
he "hurts" his arm because he insulted BuckBeak, I don't think that 
getting Buckbeak killed or whatever was his only reason for acting 
more hurt than he was. I think that he was using it as an excuse, but 
deep down he just wanted compassion. I can't find many parts in the 
books besides that, that really show anyone showing him compassion.
> With a father like L. Malfoy, one would think it would hard to be 
anything than what Draco is. I'm not saying it excuses his behavior, 
but I do think it would be nice in future books to see, in the least, 
glimpses of another side of Draco.
> Once again, this is only my opinion, not to be trashed or told it's 
wrong. OPINION, not fact. Thank you.
> ~Echo
> *proudly -NOT- a nitpicker*
>

Despite my LOVE of Draco, i think he should die (sorry!) fighting Mr 
V. Would Lucius turn away from the dark side (use the force luke)? 
Does he love power and Mr V more than his own son? is Draco the 
illegitimate son of Narcissa and Snape? Do Mr V and Lucius have a 
shamefull past? (know what i mean? lol!) i would really like to 
know.... ok....so maybe the last one is a little far fetched, this is 
a childrens book after all..........

claire

also proudly-NOT-a nitpicker(!)




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 16:31:40 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:31:40 -0000
Subject: idiotic letter in todays paper
In-Reply-To: <OE22luevz176RbFGIUU00002436@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b20tc+re41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16393

yep, there are only so many storys/lyrics/chords in the world.....

claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 16:35:35 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:35:35 -0000
Subject: Prefects
In-Reply-To: <9b0u4o+fcf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b214n+108aq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16394

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> I suspect three prefects from each house. A 5th, 6th, and 7th 
> year. Head boy and girl may or may not be prefects first/still. It 
is 
> unlikely that Percy was prefect in his fifth year over all the 6th 
> and 7th years. [if only one prefect] Such a grand bathroom for only 
4 
> students? [probably not]  That would mean a total of 12 prefects. 
> That would be 6 per compartment on the Hogwarts express. [If they 
all 
> took the train in] 
>  
> Bugg 
> 
> 
> > --- "Lisa" <linman6868 at a...> skrev:
> > > Query:  is there only one Prefect per House?  
> > 
> Christian Stub? <prince_galrion at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Doubt it - it would seem prudent to have one prefect of each 
gender 
> at least.  Also, in PS, Chapter Six "The Journey from Platform Nine 
> and Three Quarters" (p. 72 UK paperback-edition), the following 
> appears (it's Percy talking): 
> > "'Can't stay long, Mother,' he said.  'I'm up front, the Prefects 
> have got two compartments to themselves-'" ... 
> If there were only four Prefects plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they 
> would need only one compartment. If you have eight prefects plus 
Head 
> Boy and Head Girl, they fit nicely into two compartments, with a bit
> > of room to spare.  If Head Boy and Head Girl are included in the 
> eight prefects (but I don't think they are - just a gut-feeling), 
> they still need two compartments.
> > 
> > Best regards
> > Christian Stub?


magically expanding compartments?!?!


lol

claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 16:41:05 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:41:05 -0000
Subject: Prefects AND Burning Feathers (was Re: [Ron Week]: More Questions--and more and more...)
In-Reply-To: <20010410145807.34652.qmail@web12803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b21f2+51pg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16395

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? <prince_galrion at y...> 
wrote:
> --- "Lisa" <linman6868 at a...> skrev: 
> > Even so, I don't recall him screwing up in Potions at all (unlike 
Harry whose Confusing
> > Concoction won't thicken in PoA), whereas there are numerous 
examples of him crashing
> > and burning in Charms and Transfiguration--I always laugh at the 
part where he has to
> > put that feather out with his hat--is it in PS/SS? or CoS?.
> 
> It's in PS, Chapter Ten "Hallowe'en" (p. 126 UK paperback edition), 
and it's Seamus who
> puts fire to the feather, though Ron does have his problems:
> 
>    "It was very difficult.  Harry and Seamus swished and flicked, 
but the feather they
> were supposed to be sending skywards just lay on the desktop.  
Seamus got so impatient
> that he prodded it with his wand and set fire to it - Harry had to 
put it out with his
> hat.
>    Ron, at the next table, wasn't ahving much more luck"
>    '/Wingardium Leviosa!/' he shouted, waving his long arms like a 
windmill.
>    'You're saying it wrong,' Harry heard Hermione snap.  'It's Wing-
/gar/-dium
> Levi-/o/-sa, make the "gar" nice and long.'
>    'You do it, then, if you're so clever,' Ron snarled.
>    Hermione rolled up the sleeves of her gown, flicked her wand and 
said '/Wingardium
> Leviosa/!'
>    Their feather rose off the desk, and hovered about four feet 
above their heads."
> 
> Does anyone remember if Ron has similar problems with Charms and 
Transfiguration after he
> gets his new wand in the beginning of PoA?
> 
> --- "Lisa" <linman6868 at a...> skrev:
> > Query:  is there only one Prefect per House?  
> 
> Doubt it - it would seem prudent to have one prefect of each gender 
at least.  Also, in
> PS, Chapter Six "The Journey from Platform Nine and Three Quarters" 
(p. 72 UK
> paperback-edition), the following appears (it's Percy talking):  
> 
> "'Can't stay long, Mother,' he said.  'I'm up front, the Prefects 
have got two
> compartments to themselves-'"
> 
> The compartments on the Hogwarts Express sound like they're sized 
to six or eight
> persons, but given that the prefects are senior students, six is a 
more likely figure for
> how many can squeeze in there, with luggage and all.  If there were 
only four Prefects
> plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they would need only one compartment.  
If you have eight
> prefects plus Head Boy and Head Girl, they fit nicely into two 
compartments, with a bit
> of room to spare.  If Head Boy and Head Girl are included in the 
eight prefects (but I
> don't think they are - just a gut-feeling), they still need two 
compartments.
> 
> 1.  Could somebody summon up the number of the post by John (I 
think) about the duties of
> prefects in British public schools (in the British sense of the 
word)?
> 
> 2.  Is there an FAQ being written about British public schools?  If 
not, should perhaps
> the above-mentioned post be archived with the FAQs?
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Organiser sammenkomsten p? http://no.invites.yahoo.com


Prefects (at my school)have duties such as, library duty, toilet duty 
and other similar duties at lunch times, they make sure that younger 
students have help with any problems, show future students around, 
and are basically an example to younger students.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 16:43:05 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <9b1u5k+teb7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010411164305.23082.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16396


--- Indigo <indigo at indigosky.net> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > How might Draco be saved? Maybe, just maybe, 
> > > when Draco sees evil up close and personal, 
> > > and some of the blood spatters his own robes,
> > > the reality of it will wake him up... 
> > > Up till now it's been "the bad guys are cooler" 
> > > abstract kind of thing. I'm not holding my breath.
> > 
> > I suspect that he also doesn't really understand the power
> > relationship between Lord V. and the DE's.  He's used to seeing
> > Lucius in positions of authority and respect, being treated
> > deferentially by one and all due to the family wealth and rank. 
> > The first sight of a cringing Daddy grovelling to Lord V. is 
> > going to be a big jolt.
> > 
> >
> I disagree, but the Circle gets the square. :)
> 
> I think that Draco knows full well what his father's position
> entails.
> 
> He's threatened at least once to go running to Daddy and have this 
> person or that person sacked.  So he knows that Lucius is willing
> to do underhanded things to get rid of people he doesn't want 
> around.

Which is exactly why Draco is going to be shocked to find that
Lucius' relationship with Lord V. is not that of equals.  He would
not like to see his father grovelling to anyone.

Actually, we're not disagreeing at all.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 11 17:14:05 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:14:05 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <3AD46194.FB977F20@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b23ct+53sl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16397

Yeehaw! 

> > The characters in the books are what they are, they aren't real
> > people with all sorts of depth that JKR hasn't found space to
> > include. JKR doesn't write most of her characters with the kind of
> > depth you are inventing for them. She might in the future, but she
> > hasn't so far.
> 
> How do you know?  How do you know she doesn't intend to redeem 
Draco and
> that the hints of redemptive possibility that Heidi picked up on 
for her
> fanfic were not *exactly* what JKR intended?  How can you possibly 
say
> that your interpretation of the canon is precisely 100% exactly 
what JKR
> intended?  If all 1100+ of us are reading the same books, Steve, 
AND as
> you seem to imply, there is only one and only one interpretation of
> Snape (JKR's), then how can there *possibly* be all these
> interpretations of Snape that we come up with?  The reason is 
simple.
> Everyone brings their own experiences & perceptions to literary
> interpretation.  That's the point!!

YES!!! That's EXACTLY my point. *I* don't know. *You* don't know. The 
writers of fanfic don't know. We're all assuming and interpreting and 
changing what's there. And what I try to avoid are other people's 
assumptions and creative alterations of the characters. I am trying 
SO hard NOT to assume, NOT to color what little is there with 
suppositions. I don't care at all if someone else wants to go there. 
I don't and I am trying to explain why I would make that choice. 


> 
> You believe that Snape is a stereotype.  There are lots of other 
people,
> including Amanda who spoke out in support of your post, who think 
Snape
> is anything *but* a stereotype.  Which one of you is correct?  JKR
> hasn't *said* that he is or isn't a stereotype.

You are right. But neither is he a multi-leveled, subtley shaded, 
nuanced character of the type you find in literature. His actions are 
almost invariably somewhere between rude and downright despicable. 
There is virtually nothing in the canon besides that. There are a few 
tidbits here and there, such as the gripping of the back of the chair 
when he heard that Ginny had been taken into the Chamber of Secrets, 
but that is certainly nowhere near enough evidence to interpret the 
character in a completely different way from the way he's written. 
No, I don't know what JKR might do with the character down the line. 
No, I can't state her intentions any better than anyone else can. But 
I can read (and I am also a lit major, BTW, undergrad and postgrad).

> 
> I don't see what the point of a literary discussion group is if not 
to
> discuss all the various interpretations that can be brought to bear 
on a
> character or subplot or scene.  I will defer to Ebony and other
> English-major types, but IMO, it's very very very rare that the 
reading
> public ever knows exactly what the author intended with respect to 
every
> aspect of their works.  I'm writing a biography of an author right 
now,
> and let me assure you, I puzzle *daily* over what she meant and 
intended
> with virtually all aspects of her work.  Her work is complete & has 
been
> for nearly 60 years.  She left some drafts, some correspondence, 
some
> notes.  But, you still can't expect that I or anyone else could ever
> absolutely 100% definitively piece together what she intended when 
she
> wrote each & every scene in her books.

Absolutely. Again, this is exactly my point. 

You notice that I went out of my way to say that for many people, 
fanfic is exactly the way they want to enjoy their Harry Potter. 
That's terrific. I am not disparaging that (although I can't seem to 
say that clearly enough to stop the knee-jerk defensive reactions). 
My intention is not to convince people not to read fanfic! It just 
seems that some people don't understand why others might NOT want to 
read it.

> 
> > But fanfic, as the past few posts have clearly stated, changes 
your
> > perception of the characters, and in ways which almost without 
fail
> > the author did not intend.
> 
> Again, I'm completely mystified that you believe that it's possible 
to
> discern JKR's intent, particularly since the canon is only a little 
over
> halfway done at this point.

I don't. Not at all. And for me, I don't then want to read other 
people's versions and interpretations in fiction form.

> 
> > That kind of coloring of what's actually there is what I do not 
want
> > to have happen to me. I don't WANT to feel sympathetic toward 
Draco
> > or Snape. That's not the way the characters are portrayed in the
> > books. (No, it isn't; they're stereotypes, let's face it).
> 
> You might want to say that it's *your* individual personal
> interpretation that these characters are portrayed as stereotypes.  
It
> sounds to me like you want to hold on to Harry's POV and *his*
> interpretations of the characters at all costs.

It is my interpretation, sure. I never said I didn't interpret. I 
know I do, everyone does. Again, that's my point! I don't WANT 
anyone's interpretations to interfere. I can't avoid my own, although 
I do try to keep as objective as possible. But I can avoid others'. 
You should keep in mind that I edit the Lexicon, so I have other 
reasons for keeping only the canon in mind as I work. But I'd feel 
this way whether or not I was the editor of the Lexicon.


> 
> > You forever lose JKR's own version of the characters she has 
created.
> 
> But, everyone has their own personal version of her characters.  
Take a
> look at the character discussions that have gone on over the last 6 
mths
> or so.  We all put our own spin on the characters.  They're the same
> characters that JKR created.  But, everyone looks at them in a 
different
> way.

And I don't have a problem with that. But there is a tremendous 
difference between discussions and fiction. As a reader and a student 
of literature, I am very aware of the fact that a person's reactions 
to those two types of written expression--discussion/essay and 
fiction--are very different. They each influence perceptions in very 
different ways. Fiction is far more subtle in the way it colors your 
thinking. Again, I have absolutely no problem with people reading 
fanfic and enjoying that form of influence on their perceptions. Why 
does it bother some of you that everyone doesn't want that too?

 
> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I think you've completely
> missed the point of the posts yesterday regarding fanfic versus 
canon.
> Some fanfic is poorly-written or departs so completely from the 
canon
> that it isn't even recognizable.  But, there are lots of fanfic 
pieces
> that can challenge a person to go back & re-read canon with a new
> perspective (a perspective that might very well be just as valid in
> JKR's eyes as the one you originally held I might add) -- it adds a
> completely new dimension to the way you enjoy the books.  It's that 
sort
> of fanfic that is great. 

I completely agree. I didn't misread anything. I think you misread me 
if you think I'm being critical of that form of expression of Harry 
Potter. I say AGAIN: I think it's WONDERFUL that people write and 
read fanfic. But let's acknowledge it DOES influence the reader in 
subtle, irreversable ways in the way they read the books (as you just 
pointed out) and that's the point I am making.


 It's just a different medium from you & I
> posted pro/con reasons for the student numbers being what they 
are.  I
> could just as easily create a fanfic that illustrates my point on 
that
> very same issue.

But that discussion concerns a number, a fairly objective detail. It 
wouldn't be very hard to keep that in persepctive, even in a fanfic 
setting. What we're talking about in fanfic, however, is character 
stuff, very subjective and easily altered without the reader even 
realizing it. 


> 
> Until you can interview JKR and ask specifically, did you intend XYZ
> when you wrote this scene ... I don't see how one can possibly argue
> that her intent is clear. 

I don't argue that her intent is clear. I argue, however, that it's 
hers to reveal in her own good time, and I argue that there's nothing 
wrong with either decision: 1) read the interpretative fiction of 
others or 2) wait until the end of the seven books to see where JKR 
takes it herself. Each choice has perfectly good reasoning behind it 
and shouldn't be maligned. 

 Even then, it would be good to have a
> follow-up question that says, "Do you think ABC is a valid alternate
> interpretation of your scene?"  She's an author and doubtless would
> consider that there is more than one interpretation for everything 
in
> her books; there's even more than one path that she could have 
chosen
> (having written myself, I can say that you sometimes weigh multiple
> valid courses of action but eventually must choose only one).  
Anyway,
> I'm completely opposed to the notion that there is only one JKR
> interpretation of these characters and books and I'm especially 
opposed
> to the notion that this one interpretation is discernible by people
> other than JKR herself.

I agree again, wholeheartedly. And I say again that THAT IS MY POINT. 
I don't WANT to read someone else's interpretation. I will wait for 
JKR to take things where she wants. I don't read fanfic because it is 
someone else's assumptions and interpretations being insinuated into 
my perceptions. And there's nothing illogical about not wanting that.

Steve
(fondly)




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 17:25:42 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:25:42 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b0ngu+f5ug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b242m+9bji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16398

firoza10 at y... wrote:

> Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But Harry 
> wasn't allowing him too. 

I don't believe that's true. The way to do it is to say "Harry I 
believe you now and I'm sorry I called you a liar" but he didn't do 
that until after the first task, about a month after the fight began. 
At that point Harry was very gracious about it and didn't even make 
Ron finish saying it.    

>JKR herself said that Harry's pride  was to blame for prolonging the 
>fight in the Dec. Times article

Yes, I read that too, but if that was Rowling's intention then she 
needs to rewrite the book because that's not what comes across on the 
page. I doubt if there is one person in a thousand would be as easy 
going about it as Harry was. Think about it, you're under enormous 
stress and facing a potentially lethal situation and your best friend 
just makes it worse. I said it before I'll say it again, I'd knock 
Ron's block off.






From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 17:55:40 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:55:40 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b242m+9bji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b25qs+b3gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16399

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> firoza10 at y... wrote:
> 
> > Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But 
Harry 
> > wasn't allowing him too. 
> 
> I don't believe that's true. The way to do it is to say "Harry I 
> believe you now and I'm sorry I called you a liar" but he didn't do 
> that until after the first task, about a month after the fight 
began. 
> At that point Harry was very gracious about it and didn't even make 
> Ron finish saying it.    
> 
> >JKR herself said that Harry's pride  was to blame for prolonging 
the 
> >fight in the Dec. Times article
> 
> Yes, I read that too, but if that was Rowling's intention then she 
> needs to rewrite the book because that's not what comes across on 
the 
> page. I doubt if there is one person in a thousand would be as easy 
> going about it as Harry was. Think about it, you're under enormous 
> stress and facing a potentially lethal situation and your best 
friend 
> just makes it worse. I said it before I'll say it again, I'd knock 
> Ron's block off.

Even before I read the Times article, I had come to the conclusion, 
that yeah Ron was an idiot to start the fight, but Harry was an idiot 
to prolong it. It came across pretty clear to me and the Times 
article just reaffirmed it for me:-)

I, like Harry, would be pretty tee-ed off at my best friend for 
calling me a liar and I probably wouldn't speak to him for a month 
for doubting me. Like Harry, I would rebuff attempts to reconcile 
just to make my best friend Ron pay for doubting me. But after facing 
a dragon and almost getting killed and seeing my best friends white 
face (which tells me that yeah he might have doubted me but he DOES 
care), I would know my friend well enough to accept his half-formed 
apology. I would recognize the sentiment behind it and accept that 
unspoken apology. I, like Harry, would realize that friendship is 
more important to me than my pride. Fights between friends DO happen. 
Whether or not the fights are resolved is what determines if the 
friendship remains intact or is broken. Harry and Ron had a fight but 
Harry and Ron resolved it. If Harry can forgive Ron, I can too. 
Whether YOU can forgive Ron is up to you :-)

Firoza 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Apr 11 18:22:28 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:22:28 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b23ct+53sl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b27d4+cutq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16400

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:


> I don't WANT 
> anyone's interpretations to interfere. 
<snip> And I say again that THAT IS MY POINT. 
> I don't WANT to read someone else's interpretation. 

Poor Steve, what ARE you going to do when the movie comes out? 
	
Pippin, who is wondering if your determination to avoid all fanfic 
extends to The Aeneid or Paradise Lost? 





From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 18:26:21 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:26:21 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b242m+9bji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b27kd+gco4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16401

> > Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But Harry 
> > wasn't allowing him too. 
> 
> I don't believe that's true. 

Hmm. I do.  I think that the night Ron interrupted Harry's 
conversation with Sirius, there might have been a reconciliation 
coming - if the timing hadn't been so ridiculously bad.  I imagine 
that scenario for Ron.  It's very late.  Everyone has gone to bed.  
It's been weeks since he's spoken to his best friend, and everyone's 
present in his dormitory except for Harry.  Therefore I believe that 
Ron's objective in going downstairs was to find Harry.  Why on earth, 
in the middle of a fight, would he go to find Harry?  To fight some 
more?  I doubt it - the fight so far has been mostly passive on Ron's 
part.  Not so much at the very beginning, but since the first 
cutting remarks, the rest of it has all been cold-shouldering.  He 
hasn't been seeking Harry out and actively throwing cruelties his way. 
 So, if Ron *wasn't* going down for a fight, that leaves us one other 
option.  I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a 
way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm sorry", 
probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?" just to get 
them talking.) 

>The way to do it is to say "Harry I 
> believe you now and I'm sorry I called you a liar" but he didn't do 
> that until after the first task, about a month after the fight 
began. 
> At that point Harry was very gracious about it and didn't even make 
> Ron finish saying it.    

Well... okay.  Ron didn't say it outright.  What he said was, "Harry, 
whoever put your name in that goblet - I - I reckon they're trying to 
do you in!"  Which, IMO, translates as: "Harry, I know I said you put 
your name in that goblet, but I realize now that you didn't."  That's 
the first part of your complaint taken care of - Ron realizes and 
admits where he was wrong in this instance.  (Granted, he does it a 
little backwards. But hey, he's young.)  The second part of your 
complaint is more complicated - you want a flat out "I'm sorry." And 
perhaps it was "gracious" on Harry's part not to make him say it 
outright. But IMO, Harry's not feeling "gracious" so much as he's 
being an introverted boy who doesn't want a whole lot of emotions to 
start getting out in the open. "Harry knew Ron was about to apologize 
and suddenly he found he didn't need to hear it."  To me personally, 
this says that Harry's not too interested in a big speechy apology and 
tears and handshaking.  Both boys are a little put off, actually, when 
Hermione tries to pull out the emotional side of the situation a 
moment later.  I think that whole apology-without-apology scene is 
tense and touching and great.  I cried like Hermione.  I'm a sucker 
for best friends.

> >JKR herself said that Harry's pride  was to blame for prolonging 
the
> >fight in the Dec. Times article
> 
> Yes, I read that too, but if that was Rowling's intention then she 
> needs to rewrite the book because that's not what comes across on 
the 
> page. 

To you.  It comes flying across to me.  Your wish that an author 
should "rewrite" her books simply because you did not interpret the 
written action in the way she intended, is... not a wish that I can 
understand.

> I doubt if there is one person in a thousand would be as easy 
> going about it as Harry was. Think about it, you're under enormous 
> stress and facing a potentially lethal situation and your best 
friend 
> just makes it worse. 

Ron definitely didn't show off his best colors during this fight.  But 
 neither did Harry.  "Easy going"?  Harry chucked a badge at Ron's 
head and said aloud the words that both of them had been thinking - 
harsher words between them, I can't find.  "You might even have a scar 
now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?"  I know that 
Harry was under intense stress that night and I know that his impulse 
was born of absolute frustration.  But *what* a thing to do to your 
best friend.  He shot hard at the very root of Ron's insecurity - 
deliberately.  And maybe Ron needed to hear it, to know that he was 
being totally transparent - but it wasn't an easy going choice, on 
Harry's part.  

~Arabella

I said it before I'll say it again, I'd knock 
> Ron's block off.




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 18:34:00 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:34:00 -0000
Subject: Ginny: Chart Review?
In-Reply-To: <9b130k+c5kh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b282o+s3k9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16402

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > I "chart reviewed" Ginny recently and I have a completely 
different 
> > and more favorable impression of her now.
> > 
> > :-)Milz (who profusely apologizes for the medical examples and for 
> > tainting this forum with dirty words like "insurance companies", 
> > "HMOs", "care givers", "reimburse")
> 
> Milz, I am a big Ginny fan, so are you going to share the results 
> with us?  I'd be interested to hear what you have to say (and I know 
> there's probably a few others out there who would be too).
> 
So am I - I meant to reply to your bit about Ginny yesterday, 
Catherine, when you mentioned that you see her maturing and growing 
into a young lady.  So do I, absolutely.  Milz, what exactly is a 
chart review, and yes - when can we see it?




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 18:43:03 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:43:03 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Diary/Voldemort's Risen Consciousness
Message-ID: <9b28jn+3apq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16403

I apologize in advance if this is a repeat of a previously discussed 
topic.  I searched the archive and couldn't find it, but my history 
with computers tells me I may have done something wrong... in any 
case.

My questions: 1)What is Tom Riddle's knowledge of future events?  
2)Does Voldemort, newly risen, know anything about what happened with 
the Tom Riddle diary and Ginny Weasley?  Does he have any memory of 
the Chamber of Secrets or are the two consciousnesses unconnected? 

These are my deductions so far:

1) On Tom Riddle's Diary: I'm under the impression that before Ginny 
opened the diary, it had been "sleeping" since Tom shut it, which was 
after the CoS events 50 years before.  So I'm assuming that Tom, in 
his diary state, knows nothing about the fact that he eventually grew 
to become Lord Voldemort.  We know he already had his new name picked 
out, because he spells it in the air for Harry during the scene in the 
Chamber.  But that doesn't mean Tom knew that he'd grow to be as 
successfully evil as he actually did. I'm thinking that Ginny gives 
him all the information he has about a)The Dark Lord he became b)The 
war he creates c)Harry Potter and the downfall of Voldemort.  Ginny is 
the person who fills in Tom's future/history for him and spends much 
of her time hero-worshipping Harry's defeats of the Dark Lord. This is 
how Tom understands what Harry Potter is to him, and it's why Tom is 
so particularly eager to kill Harry at the end of the book. 

2) On Voldemort at present:  I don't think he has any recollection of 
the Chamber of Secrets.  I think that his phantom diary self is wholly 
unconnected from his spirit self (the one that barely existed and went 
around possessing Quirrell, etc.) The reason I think this is because 
Voldemort says nothing about CoS in the Death Eaters chapter of GoF, 
when he's detailing the years of his demise and the events of his rise 
to new power.  He talks about Quirrell and the Sorcerer's/ 
Philosopher's Stone - he talks about finding Wormtail.  He skips the 
Chamber altogether.  Also, in the same scene, Voldemort berates Lucius 
Malfoy for doing nothing to find him and for running from the Dark 
Mark.  I don't think Voldemort is aware that Lucius planted the Riddle 
diary in among Ginny's things.  

Anybody think differently?  Have I missed evidence somewhere?





From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 13:09:39 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:09:39 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F23JLtosJ3Ih7j00001452@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16404


>Catherine wrote:
>
>  What about fairness and justice? Snape finds
>    it extremely unfair that James and Harry, who are (or were) so
>  popular, should get away with so much. This much is clear. What
>   concerns me about his pre-occupation with rules and justice is that
>in a way, it flies out of the window when Harry is concerned. He
>  uses it as a camouflage for needlessly punishing Harry and his
>  friends.

I agree.  I can't understand how anyone could *like* Snape.  He's a 
*terrible* teacher, starting by telling the whole class he expects them to 
be dunderheads, picking on Harry in the *worst* way, for his fame, which he 
didn't ask for, can't help and never makes anything of.  He is a 
bully/coward, picking on Neville simply because Neville lacks confidence and 
will put up with it (no known *issues* from the past there), and scoring 
cheap points with the Slytherin mob, and playing outrageous favourites with 
Malfoy.  He is threatened by Hermione because she is a good student (how 
many second years could have pulled off that polyjuice potion?), and his "I 
see no difference" comment in the Densaugeo episode leaves me speechless!  
He also disparages another member of staff (Lupin) to the students, and 
seeks to undermine him by making sure the class has enough information to 
guess that he's a werewolf.  Harry suspects that Dumbledore has stepped in 
to prevent his unjustly failing Harrry.  Snape makes Lockhart look like a 
model teacher.

"Professor Snape was forcing them to research antidotes.  They took this 
seriously, as he had hinted that he might be poisoning one of them before 
Christmas to see if their antidote worked."

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 11 19:06:09 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:06:09 -0000
Subject: Ginny: Chart Review?
In-Reply-To: <9b282o+s3k9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b29v1+f7ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16405

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., arabella at s... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > > I "chart reviewed" Ginny recently and I have a completely 
> different 
> > > and more favorable impression of her now.
> > > 
> > > :-)Milz (who profusely apologizes for the medical examples and 
for 
> > > tainting this forum with dirty words like "insurance companies", 
> > > "HMOs", "care givers", "reimburse")
> > 
> > Milz, I am a big Ginny fan, so are you going to share the results 
> > with us?  I'd be interested to hear what you have to say (and I 
know 
> > there's probably a few others out there who would be too).
> > 
> So am I - I meant to reply to your bit about Ginny yesterday, 
> Catherine, when you mentioned that you see her maturing and growing 
> into a young lady.  So do I, absolutely.  Milz, what exactly is a 
> chart review, and yes - when can we see it?

There's nothing on paper. I just went through each book in order and 
looked at the Ginny parts and had a good think over them. Before, I 
thought Ginny was a shadow figure who's greatest asset was a crush on 
Harry. I mean, that's the impression I got from her in CoS and the 
other books. 

In the books, she doesn't have as much screen time as Fred and George, 
even in CoS. Even so, she's pretty well defined, though very 
condensed. She loves her brothers, can't really say if she has a 
favorite though. We don't know the full extent of her diary entries, 
but Tom Riddle makes this funny comment that he had to listen to all 
of Ginny's thoughts and that he had to push her to write more about 
Harry. It makes me kind of want to read Tom Riddles thoughts during 
Ginny's non-Harry diary entries. She has the typical Weasley sense of 
humor. She has her opinions and can speak her mind (unless it's to 
Harry about her feelings). In GoF, Molly wants to cut Bill's hair, but 
Ginny says she likes it and Molly is being old-fashioned. Also in GoF, 
she's the one that tells Arthur that Bagman should know better than to 
parade around dressed in Quidditch robes in front of Muggles because 
he's a Ministry Official. She's not manipulative, but she can get want 
she wants. In GoF, she wants to go to the Yule Ball and she does by 
being Neville's date. Also, Ginny was able to resist Tom Riddle for a 
short period. That's an accomplishment for a first year Hogwarts 
student. 

One of the shortest but insightful Ginny moments is in CoS, Harry is 
sitting at the breakfast table in the Burrow. Ginny comes downstairs 
in her nightgown, squeals and runs back upstairs. It's a barely a 
sentence long, but I can picture that scene and I can feel her 
embarrassment: she just got out of bed, hair probably not combed, face 
probably not washed, in her nightgown, and she sees her crush sitting 
at her table in her house. Bad, bad timing. But it gives you a peek 
into her personality and makes her a more fleshed out character than 
"the shy Weasley sister with a crush on Harry Potter .


:-)Milz (sorry if this is disorganized but this was off the top of my 
head) 







From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 19:15:42 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:15:42 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
In-Reply-To: <3AD3CB8A.9A42EE8@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2agu+215t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16406

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Glad to see one of the SugarQuill types agrees with my assessment on
> this score.  :--)

Um, I don't know if this was intentionally meant to be joking or not, 
but isn't classifying someone as a "SugarQuill type" akin to 
classifying a person as a werewolf or a giant? <vbg>

There's perhaps a stereotype out there that all regular visitors to 
the SugarQuill are staunch defenders of Ron and unwilling to admit 
that he could ever be in the wrong (I'm not saying that is the 
stereotype, but I'm just using that as an example of something that 
*might* be the stereotype)

The truth is that we have all types at SugarQuill just as there are 
here at HPforGrownups (which is why members frequent both groups, as 
well as others on the web).  This whole Ron discussion seems to be 
turning into another one of the THEM vs. US rumbles that seem to start 
whenever Ron is the topic of conversation.  Just as HPforGrownups is 
not the only message board that provides an outlet for adult fans of 
Harry Potter, SugarQuill is not the only group that loves the Weasleys 
and sees excellence in Ron's character.  In addition, there are many 
people with differing views here at HPforGrownups who have never 
visited or intend to visit the SugarQuill.

Before we start coming down on Ron for distrusting werewolves 
initially or commenting that all giants might be mean-spirited, let's 
maybe take a look at our own prejudices.  Everyone has them; not 
everyone is daring enough to vocalize them.

Zsenya




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 11 19:29:11 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:29:11 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b27d4+cutq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2ba7+6btm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16407

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > I don't WANT 
> > anyone's interpretations to interfere. 
> <snip> And I say again that THAT IS MY POINT. 
> > I don't WANT to read someone else's interpretation. 
> 
> Poor Steve, what ARE you going to do when the movie comes out? 

Amen! I expect that to be a real problem, not just for me personally 
but for a lot of Lexicon readers who will email me and ask why I 
haven't included this or that.

> 	
> Pippin, who is wondering if your determination to avoid all fanfic 
> extends to The Aeneid or Paradise Lost?

I've read both. Do you consider them fanfic? And I only worry about 
fanfic when it comes to Harry Potter. I don't care this passionately 
about any other books. Sounds weird, but it's true. So what if 
someone writes a pastiche of Sherlock Holmes or even Janet Evanovich, 
both of which I read with great delight. I just don't care as much 
about them.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From wings909 at aol.com  Wed Apr 11 19:45:44 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:45:44 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny: Chart Review?
Message-ID: <a8.13c61eb8.28060e68@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16408

Milz: As a Ginny defender, I have to agree with all of your points, on her 
character, but I think you left out on that for me, pretty much says a lot 
about her, only from a tiny sentence in GoF.  

>From Canon:  "She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, but she 
kept on patting Ron's arm sympathetically."

For me, this says that Ginny is very loyal to her family (which you already 
outlined) but I can see further that the girl has a sense of humour that 
hopefully JKR will develop in the next books.  Now why she was laughing is 
unclear: it could be just the way Ron was acting (hell, I thought that was 
funny when I read it myself) or it could be because she was laughing at the 
whole strange turn of events: Ron gets turned down by Fleur, while Hermione 
got asked out by Krum.  This is just my analysis of Ginny, IMOHO.

Cheers,
Paula 
Gryffindor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Apr 11 19:46:26 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:46:26 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
In-Reply-To: <9b2agu+215t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2cai+amq2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16409

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., zsenya at s... wrote:
 
> There's perhaps a stereotype out there that all regular visitors to 
> the SugarQuill are staunch defenders of Ron and unwilling to admit 
> that he could ever be in the wrong (I'm not saying that is the 
> stereotype, but I'm just using that as an example of something that 
> *might* be the stereotype)

Just to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding what you said here, 
Zsenya, I looked up the word "stereotype" at the Merriam-Webster 
site - it is defined as, "something conforming to a fixed or general 
pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in 
common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified 
opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment"

I want to point out that it didn't seem like Penny was suggesting 
anything about "regular visitors" to Sugarquill Island. I pop over 
there at least once a week myself, as some of the regulars who 
responded to my comment about naming my son Harrison after the books 
could attest, and it is probably well known to many, including Penny, 
that while I will staunchly defend on on certain things, I likewise 
often admit that he is in the wrong. 

I also want to point out to those who may not have visited the 
Sugarquill site that the site itself has a "Purpose of Existence" 
which reads as follows: 

<<We will state outright that we are in favor of Ron with Hermione, 
and Harry with Ginny (though he is allowed to date Cho, in our 
opinion.)  We disapprove of Hermione and Draco. We will not tolerate 
such smut. Also, know that we love Harry and we love Hermione, but we 
do not love them together.>>

It also says that the site founders <<couldn't find any group on the 
net that was equal to our particular interests and opinions, so we 
decided to set up a small forum for ourselves, where like-minded 
Potterites are welcome to join us>>  

Back to definitions - as a stereotype can incorporate a prejudiced 
attitude, I went to the definition of "prejudice" and discovered that 
it is defined as "an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just 
grounds or before sufficient knowledge". How could someone who formed 
an opinion about the "purpose" of Sugarquill.com based on the 
site's "purpose of existence" be demonstrating a prejudice? That 
would be the equivilant of reading the About the ACLU page (located 
at http://www.aclu.org/library/FreedomIsWhy.pdf) and saying that the 
ACLU supports First Amendment rights. Would that be a prejudiced 
comment about that organization, given that said comment is based 
entirely on statements made by them on their own site? I didn't think 
so. 

Zsenya, you yourself are listed as a "headmistress" on the Sugarquill 
site, so it would be a bit disingenuous to now state that things 
which are specifically listed as "purpose[s]" on the Sugarquill Site 
are, if mentioned by someone who is not part of your "staff", 
prejudiced comments. 

I am sure that "all types" visit SugarQuill, but Penny was saying 
*nothing* about those who visit the site. She was responding 
specifically to a post by Arabella (post # 16320)  wherein Arabella 
said that Penny's view on something in canon (post # 16310) was "one 
way to look at" that particular scene. Ergo, I believe, and I am sure 
she will correct me if I'm wrong, that she was saying that Arabella 
was a "SugarQuill type". Are you now going to say that Arabella, who 
is also a "headmistress" there, is not a "SugarQuill type"?

And why is being a "Sugarquill type" a bad thing. You sound oh so 
defensive in your post, as if Penny's use of that phrase was a 
negative thing. 

Personally, I don't see this as an THEM vs US rumble - who is 
the "them"? who is the "us"? Why are *you* trying to draw dividing 
lines here on HP4GU? Aren't we all just speaking our minds about our 
different perspectives on canon? 
 
> Before we start coming down on Ron for distrusting werewolves 
> initially or commenting that all giants might be mean-spirited, 
let's 
> maybe take a look at our own prejudices.  Everyone has them; not 
> everyone is daring enough to vocalize them.
And not eveyone is so paranoid as to see prejudices where none exist.




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr 11 20:02:00 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:02:00 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b27kd+gco4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2d7p+jpu9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16410

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., arabella at s... wrote:
> > > Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But 
Harry 
> > > wasn't allowing him too. 
> > 
> > I don't believe that's true. 
> 
> Hmm. I do.  I think that the night Ron interrupted Harry's 
> conversation with Sirius, there might have been a reconciliation 
> coming - if the timing hadn't been so ridiculously bad.  I imagine 
> that scenario for Ron.  It's very late.  Everyone has gone to bed.  
> It's been weeks since he's spoken to his best friend, and everyone's 
> present in his dormitory except for Harry.  Therefore I believe that 
> Ron's objective in going downstairs was to find Harry.  Why on 
earth, 
> in the middle of a fight, would he go to find Harry?  To fight some 
> more?  I doubt it - the fight so far has been mostly passive on 
Ron's 
> part.  Not so much at the very beginning, but since the first 
> cutting remarks, the rest of it has all been cold-shouldering.  He 
> hasn't been seeking Harry out and actively throwing cruelties his 
way. 
>  So, if Ron *wasn't* going down for a fight, that leaves us one 
other 
> option.  I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a 
> way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm 
sorry", 
> probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?" just to get 
> them talking.) 

It's not really in Ron's nature to seek someone out for an apology 
given his previous history. He didn't rush right off to apologize to 
Hermione for Crookshanks.  But people change and grow, so he at least, 
in my mind, deserves the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> >The way to do it is to say "Harry I 
> > believe you now and I'm sorry I called you a liar" but he didn't 
do 
> > that until after the first task, about a month after the fight 
> began. 
> > At that point Harry was very gracious about it and didn't even 
make 
> > Ron finish saying it.    
> 
> Well... okay.  Ron didn't say it outright.  What he said was, 
"Harry, 
> whoever put your name in that goblet - I - I reckon they're trying 
to 
> do you in!"  Which, IMO, translates as: "Harry, I know I said you 
put 
> your name in that goblet, but I realize now that you didn't."  
That's 
> the first part of your complaint taken care of - Ron realizes and 
> admits where he was wrong in this instance.  (Granted, he does it a 
> little backwards. But hey, he's young.)  The second part of your 
> complaint is more complicated - you want a flat out "I'm sorry." And 
> perhaps it was "gracious" on Harry's part not to make him say it 
> outright. But IMO, Harry's not feeling "gracious" so much as he's 
> being an introverted boy who doesn't want a whole lot of emotions to 
> start getting out in the open. "Harry knew Ron was about to 
apologize 
> and suddenly he found he didn't need to hear it."  To me personally, 
> this says that Harry's not too interested in a big speechy apology 
and 
> tears and handshaking.  Both boys are a little put off, actually, 
when 
> Hermione tries to pull out the emotional side of the situation a 
> moment later.  I think that whole apology-without-apology scene is 
> tense and touching and great.  I cried like Hermione.  I'm a sucker 
> for best friends.
> 

I think for Harry it was enough knowing Ron was sorry and that making 
a scene would just distract him when his mind was already quite full 
enough.

> > >JKR herself said that Harry's pride  was to blame for prolonging 
> the
> > >fight in the Dec. Times article
> > 
> > Yes, I read that too, but if that was Rowling's intention then she 
> > needs to rewrite the book because that's not what comes across on 
> the 
> > page. 
> 
> To you.  It comes flying across to me.  Your wish that an author 
> should "rewrite" her books simply because you did not interpret the 
> written action in the way she intended, is... not a wish that I can 
> understand.
> 
> > I doubt if there is one person in a thousand would be as easy 
> > going about it as Harry was. Think about it, you're under enormous 
> > stress and facing a potentially lethal situation and your best 
> friend 
> > just makes it worse. 
> 
> Ron definitely didn't show off his best colors during this fight.  
But 
>  neither did Harry.  "Easy going"?  Harry chucked a badge at Ron's 
> head and said aloud the words that both of them had been thinking - 
> harsher words between them, I can't find.  "You might even have a 
scar 
> now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?"  I know that 
> Harry was under intense stress that night and I know that his 
impulse 
> was born of absolute frustration.  But *what* a thing to do to your 
> best friend.  He shot hard at the very root of Ron's insecurity - 
> deliberately.  And maybe Ron needed to hear it, to know that he was 
> being totally transparent - but it wasn't an easy going choice, on 
> Harry's part.  
> 
No, but Harry's been easygoing about other things. 

The play-by-play binoculars he bought at the World Cup for everyone.  
He was willing to make them a gift. Ron is the one who insisted (due 
to his hangup about being poor) on paying back for them. Ron is the 
one who got offended when Harry didn't notice that the gold he'd paid 
back *with* was fairy gold which vanished.  Harry has always felt 
guilty about having more money than Ron, and has always shared 
willingly and generously anytime Ron's pride doesn't get in the way.  
He buys the goodies on the train. He buys icecreams on Diagon Alley.

I think the reason Harry took it so hard is because the rest of the 
world gives him static about being The Famous Harry Potter. Ron never 
had, and now that the Goblet has come up with his name, Ron's acting 
just like everyone else.  

Ron knows Harry hated it when Lockhart treated Harry like he was 
grabbing for attention.

Ron knows that Harry is uncomfortable with how new people stare at 
Harry's scar.

Ron knows that Harry tolerates Colin following him around and trying 
to snap pictures of everything, even when he falls in the mud.

But still, when Harry needed Ron's support most, Ron joined the other 
team, so to speak.  And accused him of being a liar on top of it. 

Harry at this point figures (to me) "what kind of a friend is he that 
he's going to hold my fame -- which I hate, and can't control -- over 
my head? What kind of friend is he that he thinks I'd lie to him? What 
kind of friend is he that he doesn't know me by now?" 

He was hurt, and wanted to hurt back in kind.  It may not be a _right_ 
response, but it is a human one, to take a low blow in a fight. 

I think this, in part, is also why Harry didn't *make* Ron say the 
actual apology. He knew he hadn't acted like a perfect gentleman 
himself...although he probably felt a tiny bit of justification.

Indigo




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 20:06:38 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:06:38 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b23ct+53sl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2dge+pj3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16411

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> You notice that I went out of my way to say that for many people, 
> fanfic is exactly the way they want to enjoy their Harry Potter. 
> That's terrific. I am not disparaging that (although I can't seem 
to 
> say that clearly enough to stop the knee-jerk defensive reactions). 
> My intention is not to convince people not to read fanfic! It just 
> seems that some people don't understand why others might NOT want 
to 
> read it.


Steve, add another name to the list of people who don't care for 
fanfic.  I agree with everything you have said (including your first 
post on the matter).  I also don't care if people write and/or read 
fanfic.  I just personally don't like it and don't know why so many 
people are offended when I say so.



 But there is a tremendous 
> difference between discussions and fiction. 
 
> I don't WANT to read someone else's interpretation. I will wait for 
> JKR to take things where she wants. 

I think this is where I so agree with you.  There is a difference 
between discussions and fiction.  I come up with my theories based 
only on the book and never on fanfic.  

Koinonia  





From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 20:07:06 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:07:06 -0000
Subject: Mean Ron?/Passive  Harry? [Was: The Youngest and Most Impressive WeasleyMan]
In-Reply-To: <3AD38231.76FFC587@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2dha+rbdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16412

Hi!

Kathy wrote:
> > And I think Harry has a mean streak sometimes. Only Harry does 
just come out and say it. He gets quiet and passive-aggressive about 
it. He doesn't fight with Hermione in PoA, oh no, he just lets the 
fight go on and doesn't do anything about it (until it's convenient, 
and then he halfheartedly tries to patch things up). Ron's no meaner 
than Harry; he's just more honest about his feelings.

Penny wrote: 
>Oh?
> 
> 1.  In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up 
>with Hermione.  I don't know where you get half-heartedly out of the 
>language in that scene.  He approaches her on his own & quietly sets 
>about trying to make up with her.  Ron interrupts that with his loud 
>& mean-spirited comment about Scabbers.

Re: Harry - I don't think that the first attempt at reconciliation was 
half-hearted.  I do, however, question Harry's timing.  Harry waited 
until that Firebolt was safe-in-hand before approaching Hermione to 
make up with her - up until that point he was more than willing to 
double-team cold-shoulder her.  And I don't have PoA in front of me, 
but when he does approach her, I don't remember an I'm sorry.  More 
like "Nothing was wrong with the broom," wasn't it?  (I can't be 
positive.)  And then, when Scabbers goes missing and the ginger hairs 
are found, Harry sticks with Ron.  *Right* with Ron.  Until the second 
possible reconciliation, which is when he approaches Hermione after 
his Quidditch match for a moment, asking to see if she watched him 
play.  I do think that one was halfhearted.  He says something to Ron 
about cutting Hermione a break, for as much good as that does 
Hermione, who is out of the room.  And then there's pretty much 
no effort, until Hagrid loses the Buckbeak case.  

Re: Ron - Ron absolutely throws in the comment about Scabbers being 
eaten, and IMO it's a deliberate "I hope you feel bad."  But I think 
he jabs at her because he too is feeling pretty bad, and he's fishing 
for sympathy and apology.  I have to look at his motivation in the 
context of the story - it's not just arbitrary meanness.  I think that 
Ron wants his pet back, and if he can't have that, then he wants a 
little consolation for the loss of it.  He goes about getting that 
consolation in a very insensitive way.  But he's not mature enough at 
that point to say, "Look, Hermione, I need you to give a little here - 
please admit that your cat might have eaten my rat so that we can move 
on with this."  He's lost a pet he loved and she doesn't ever give him 
a touch of sympathy.  "All cats chase rats, Ron!" and other comments, 
are hardly what he wants to hear.  Not that it's Hermione's fault that 
Crookshanks was after Scabbers, and not that Scabbers was dead in any 
case - and YES my heart is with Hermione during that estrangement from 
her friends - but given the evidence, if I were Ron, I'd want just a 
little tiny "Oh, that's awful.  I wish that hadn't happened."  Which 
she won't give him.  So he jabs for it. And in the end, Ron gives in 
first, doesn't he?  "You won't have to do all the work alone this 
time, Hermione.  I'll help."  (Yeah, so I have some parts memorized 
better than others. <g> What were you excpecting from the 
SugarQuiller?)  Only then does Hermione stop being stubborn and say 
she's sorry about Scabbers.

Penny wrote:
> 2.  <snip>But Ron ignored him.  ..... Ron watched her go with a 
mixture of anger & satisfaction on his face.  *Satisfaction.*  He 
enjoyed reducing her to tears.

Oh... but IMO, again, Ron just wants her to feel as bad as he feels.  
He's helpless right there.  The girl he likes (IMO) is dancing with 
another boy.  Horrible, horrible feeling.  Of course he tries to ruin 
any fun she might have with Viktor - without even realizing why he's 
doing it.  I don't think that his choice is right, or condone it, but 
I can't go to a place where I believe that dear, abruptly emotional 
Ron has a "mean streak" and that he "enjoys" being mean because of 
this instance.  I think Ron is a frustrated teenaged boy with hormones 
he doesn't understand and he has no way of relieving his current 
tension, other than to strike out.  When he does strike out, and sees 
that his hit has taken effect, it satisfies him.  Maybe because he got 
to have *his* moment, in Hermione's big night.  Reaction and attention 
(granted, negative attention), much more than deliberate cruelty, was 
his aim, IMO. 

~Arabella




From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 20:17:33 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:17:33 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b2d7p+jpu9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2e4t+vk2f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16413


> But still, when Harry needed Ron's support most, Ron joined the 
other 
> team, so to speak.  And accused him of being a liar on top of it. 
> 
> Harry at this point figures (to me) "what kind of a friend is he 
that 
> he's going to hold my fame -- which I hate, and can't control -- 
over 
> my head? What kind of friend is he that he thinks I'd lie to him? 
What 
> kind of friend is he that he doesn't know me by now?" 

Oh, you're definitely making me feel the Harry here.  I can't stand up 
for Ron under this kind of pressure. <g>  It's true.  It's too true.  
Ron was a jerk and that probably really was Harry's inner monologue. 
Ron's jealousy was too much for him to handle like a gentleman, and he 
didn't handle it like a gentleman, and there was a rotten nasty fight. 
  But I think that Ron figured out that he was wrong, and I think that 
it was smart and really strategic of JKR to clear the air between Ron 
and Harry on a few issues at this point in the story - let them have 
it out at one another - let there be accusations and badges chucked - 
so that they don't have to worry about that when it's time to come 
together and face the Death Eaters.  I'm hoping that the fight served 
both of them, for future events.
 
> He was hurt, and wanted to hurt back in kind.  It may not be a 
_right_ 
> response, but it is a human one, to take a low blow in a fight. 

Yeah.  
 
> I think this, in part, is also why Harry didn't *make* Ron say the 
> actual apology. He knew he hadn't acted like a perfect gentleman 
> himself...although he probably felt a tiny bit of justification.

Well said. I agree with that. 

~Arabella 





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 20:24:07 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:24:07 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F23JLtosJ3Ih7j00001452@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b2eh7+aaj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16414

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

 He is a 
> bully/coward, picking on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
confidence and 
> will put up with it (no known *issues* from the past there)


There are no known *issues* from the past that we know of.  I don't 
believe Snape picks on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
confidence. There is more to Snape/Neville.  We just don't know what 
it is yet.  I am not taking up for the way Snape treats Neville.  I 
am just saying we don't know the whole story yet.  The same thing 
with Snape and Harry.  Though Snape shows quite a bit of unfairness 
towards Harry, I don't believe Harry is the perfect angel.  Harry 
does tend to get away with quite a bit. 
   

 and scoring 
> cheap points with the Slytherin mob, and playing outrageous 
favourites with 
> Malfoy.


There has to be more here than meets the eye also!


  He is threatened by Hermione because she is a good student (how 
> many second years could have pulled off that polyjuice potion?)


Somehow I don't think Snape is threatened by Hermione.  As much as I 
like her she can be very annoying.


> He also disparages another member of staff (Lupin) to the students, 
and 
> seeks to undermine him by making sure the class has enough 
information to 
> guess that he's a werewolf.


At that point in time,  Snape did believe that Lupin was in on the 
prank that could have got him killed.



Snape makes Lockhart look like a 
> model teacher.


Come now.  I don't think that is how Dumbledore views Snape at all.  
If Snape is truly such an evil and mean person why does Dumbledore 
allow him to stay?  Why did D. invite Snape to Hogwarts in the first 
place?  I am just saying there is more to Snape then we have seen.

  
> 
> "Professor Snape was forcing them to research antidotes.  They took 
this 
> seriously, as he had hinted that he might be poisoning one of them 
before 
> Christmas to see if their antidote worked."


I personally thought this was a very funny part.  There is no way 
Snape would ever poison one of the students!

Koinonia
 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 20:25:00 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:25:00 -0000
Subject: Ginny: Chart Review?
In-Reply-To: <a8.13c61eb8.28060e68@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b2eis+dd5o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16415

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> Milz: As a Ginny defender, I have to agree with all of your points, 
on her 
> character, but I think you left out on that for me, pretty much 
says a lot 
> about her, only from a tiny sentence in GoF.  
> 
> From Canon:  "She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, 
but she 
> kept on patting Ron's arm sympathetically."
> 
> For me, this says that Ginny is very loyal to her family (which you 
already 
> outlined) but I can see further that the girl has a sense of humour 
that 
> hopefully JKR will develop in the next books.  Now why she was 
laughing is 
> unclear: it could be just the way Ron was acting (hell, I thought 
that was 
> funny when I read it myself) or it could be because she was 
laughing at the 
> whole strange turn of events: Ron gets turned down by Fleur, while 
Hermione 
> got asked out by Krum.  This is just my analysis of Ginny, IMOHO.
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula 
> Gryffindor

I think I mentioned one of my favourite Ginny scenes recently - when 
she stands up for Harry when he is being mocked by Draco in the 
bookshop at the beginning of CoS.  She stands her ground, glares at 
Draco, overcomes her shyness of Harry because she wants to defend him 
and behaves very unlike the weedy, wimpish, wet that many believe her 
to be.

I don't even want to get started on the Yule Ball again, as I am 
starting to feel like a broken record, and a guess a few of you 
probably think I am writing like one as well, but again - 
sensitivity, restrained humour bubbling under the surface, honourable 
(she honours her date with Neville), perhaps proud (I wouldn't be 
surprised if she thought that she would be selling herself short if 
she went to the ball with Harry, knowing he wanted to be with someone 
else) - generally much more mature than her elder brother.

I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.

Catherine




From airasrp at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 20:25:56 2001
From: airasrp at yahoo.com (Sarah R. Pripas)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ron's Jealousy
Message-ID: <20010411202556.90307.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16416

Hi-

I'm a lurker, and have never posted to this list
before.  I've found all the banter about Ron over the
past few days extremely interesting.  (Some of it
quite disturbing, I admit.  I love dear Ronniekins!) 
But when I saw this, I just had to comment:

eggplant107 at hotmail.com wrote:

That's  not clear to me at all. Ron was 100% in the
wrong Harry 100% 
in the right. 

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into that.  When dealing
with this kind of situation, it is impossible to be
100% in either the wrong or write.  It's unfair to put
all of the blame on Ron.  Sure, the cause of the fight
was his envy.  Sure, it was extended by his
stubbornness.  But I don't recall Harry bending over
backwards to talk with Ron after the night his name
was drawn from the Goblet.  ("I'm not running around
after him trying to make him grow up!", page 290)

While I'm not saying I condone Ron's reasons for being
cold to Harry, I understand them.  From his vantage
point, he was the one "in the right", just as Harry
was so sure that he was entirely right.  Ron was
certainly "in the wrong" in several ways, but giving
him the full blast of it is doing him a great
unjustice.

-Sarah, who is about to stop rambling 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 11 20:29:16 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:29:16 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's Diary/Voldemort's Risen Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <9b28jn+3apq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010411125608.00c18c50@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16417

At 06:43 PM 4/11/01 +0000, arabella at sugarquill.com wrote:
>.  He talks about Quirrell and the Sorcerer's/
>Philosopher's Stone - he talks about finding Wormtail.  He skips the
>Chamber altogether.  Also, in the same scene, Voldemort berates Lucius
>Malfoy for doing nothing to find him and for running from the Dark
>Mark.  I don't think Voldemort is aware that Lucius planted the Riddle
>diary in among Ginny's things.
>
>Anybody think differently?  Have I missed evidence somewhere?

I agree with everything you say, except that I think it would
be worse for old Lucius if Voldy *did* know about the
Chamber.  Something like this may have happened:

(Scene: The Graveyard.  Harry has just escaped.)

Malfoy: My Lord, may I suggest that all is not lost?
      We'll get Potter some other way.
V: Yes, Lucius.  I suspect you are just the person to
      ask about that.  Wormtail tells me you used
      my school diary to open the Chamber of Secrets.
M: Yes My Lord, I did.
V: Very resourceful, Lucius.
M: Thank you, my Lord.
V: You found a way to bring me back to power without being
      answerable for your past neglect and disobedience to your
      Master!
M: Yes -- I mean, NO my Lord!
V: (With menace in his voice)Your ingenius little plan appears to have gone
       a trifle awry, Lucius. Your attempt to "clone" me was thwarted by
       Harry Potter, and here I am, back in power.  And Lucius, as you
       shall see in a moment, Lord Voldemort intends to make you
       answerable!
M: No, NO!
V: (Raises his wand) Crucio!!

So I think it's just as well Voldy doesn't know, if indeed he doesn't.



                                                 -- Dave




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 20:35:18 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:35:18 -0000
Subject: What are we here for? (was Re: Compassion for Draco?)
In-Reply-To: <20010411052026.6F3A536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9b2f66+100ui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16418

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 


> Once again, this is only my opinion, not to be trashed or told it's 
wrong. OPINION, not fact. Thank you.
> ~Echo
> *proudly -NOT- a nitpicker*


If you are forbidding people to argue with you, you are effectively 
discouraging people from responding and interacting with you. 
OPINIONS can be wrong - it is the main difference between them and 
facts. Personally speaking, I have little interest in opinions that 
are stated with no attempt to justify them.
 

Naama, getting crusty in her old age.. 




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 11 20:39:30 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:39:30 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron playing Chess-Quidditch Captain (was Re: Ron Week Extended)
In-Reply-To: <ff.49db10f.2804994a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010410154829.00c0e9a0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16419

At 01:13 PM 4/10/01 -0400, wings909 at aol.com wrote:
>I think my favorite quote in the book comes from GoF...where Hermione sits 
>to watch a chess match "concluding with a spectacular checkmate involving 
>two brave, reckless pawns and a very violent Bishop." --I just quoted this 
>from memory.
>
>Getting back to Ron as Quidditch Captain, I think it is very 
>likely.  Strategy at chess would definately work out on the Quidditch 
>Pitch, and like others have mentioned, Ron would definately make a 
>crackin' good Keeper! : )

I've been skeptical about Ron making the Quidditch team... But applying
chess strategy to Quidditch?  I think you have something there...

"Chess Tactics Applied to Quidditch" by Ronald Weasley
Coming to a bookstore near you!  Tactics covered include:

The Fork: One Beater threatens to hit both Bludgers to two
          different opposing players at once.

The Pin: A player is stuck in one place because to move
          would expose the Seeker, Keeper, or Chaser to
           getting hit with a Bludger.

Smothered Mate: The Chaser with the Quaffle is surrounded by his
      own teamembers and is assaulted by an opposing Beater from above.

Epaulette Mate: The Beaters trap the oppsoing Chaser with the Quaffle
          between her own Beaters, so that she can't go in either direction
          with out getting clobbered by *someone*.

The Kasparov Gambit: Attempt to muddle the women on the opposing team
     by describing them as "trained werewolves".  (Ususally doesn't work.)

(For more examples, consult the book.)



                                                 -- Dave




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 20:44:06 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (ESJ)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <986954768.2701.10713.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010411204406.28864.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16420

If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, what if Arabella
Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher in Book Five? Now that Vold.
is in power and Dumbledore is starting to round up his posse, I would think that
she would be there as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to help Harry.
Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, because maybe she's
the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's every summer because she's protecting
Harry. Perhaps she could be Dumbledore's female counterpart. 

Also, my friend pointed this out this morning, Mrs. Figg must have known that Harry
was a wizard, but how come she never really acted as excited as the other wizards
and witches in the community about Harry?

-Erin J.




=====
==============
"Azkaban -- the wizard prision, Goyle!" said Malfoy, looking at him in disbelief. "Honestly, if you were any slower, you'd be going backward." --HP and the Chamber of Secrets

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 11 20:44:48 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:44:48 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b2dge+pj3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2fo0+kdif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16421


> Steve, add another name to the list of people who don't care for 
> fanfic.  I agree with everything you have said (including your 
first 
> post on the matter).  I also don't care if people write and/or read 
> fanfic.  I just personally don't like it and don't know why so many 
> people are offended when I say so.

I do understand this, actually. The folks I know who write fanfic put 
at least as much loving care and painstaking effort into it as I do 
into the Lexicon. It's hard to hear someone say they don't like 
something when you've put your heart and soul into it. I certainly 
don't mean to talk fanfic down, but I can easily see where it feels 
that way to the authors. I might have to struggle with being a little 
hurt if someone was on here saying how they thought the Lexicon 
wasn't the way they wanted to enjoy Harry Potter and voiced their 
opinion that they refused to even check it out and talked about it as 
if it were contamination of the books. Please, my dear friends (and 
some of my best friends on here write and love fanfic), don't take my 
comments in that light. I support your work and take delight in our 
common love of this wonderful fictional world JKR has given us. 

Steve
(fondly still)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 20:49:25 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:49:25 -0000
Subject: Neville:  was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b2eh7+aaj5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2g0l+ff1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16422

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
>  He is a 
> > bully/coward, picking on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
> confidence and 
> > will put up with it (no known *issues* from the past there)
> 
> 
> There are no known *issues* from the past that we know of.  I don't 
> believe Snape picks on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
> confidence. There is more to Snape/Neville.  We just don't know 
what 
> it is yet.  

I don't know whether there is more to the Snape/Neville thing, but I 
have had some thoughts recently about the way Neville has been 
treated in general.  I assume that most of the staff know Neville's 
family history.  It is a sad one.  Yet Snape bullies him mercilessly 
and shows absolutely no kindness towards him at all, unlike Professor 
Lupin, who tries to bolster him up and help him be brave.  I always 
wonder whether Lupin knew that Neville's greatest fear was Snape, and 
thought that if he confronted him as a boggart, it would be easier 
not to be a gibbering wreck in his classes.  (I don't think this 
interpretation works particularly well, particularly as Lupin "looks 
thoughtful", although this could be an act.  And how does Lupin know 
everyone's names before he's even met them???)

I don't know why Snape treats Neville in this way, but what upset me 
more, was the way he was treated by Professor Trelawney.  The poor 
boy is definitely a worrier, he never comes across as being 
particularly happy either.  Trelawney knows enough about him to know 
that he lives with his grandmother, so probably knows the rest, and 
what does she do?  She implies that something is going to happen to 
his grandmother, who forms, as far as I can see, what little security 
he has, in order to give him even more reasons to worry.  In my mind, 
that is almost as bad as the way Snape treats him.  At best it is 
thoughtless and unkind, and at worst it is downright cruel.

Catherine, who feels like champion of the underdog tonight.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 21:00:03 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville:  was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b2g0l+ff1u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010411210003.56351.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16423

>>I don't believe Snape picks on Neville simply because Neville lacks

>>confidence. There is more to Snape/Neville.  We just don't know 
>> what it is yet.  
> 
> I assume that most of the staff know Neville's
> family history.  It is a sad one.  Yet Snape bullies him
> mercilessly and shows absolutely no kindness towards him at all, 
> unlike Professor 
> Lupin, who tries to bolster him up and help him be brave.  


Actually I can cut Snape some slack here.  I think it hinges on his
totally unsubtle view of the world; someone weeks ago called it his
"master sergeant" outlook on life.  I can see him thinking:

"Somebody better toughen this kid up.  It's a mean world out there
and nobody's going to be around to protect him."

With this attitude, it's reasonable for him to be exasperated with
Hermione's helping him with his potion; the time could come when he
has to do (or brew) something for himself when she's not around.
Sometimes it's cruel to be kind.   

Of course he scares Neville to death and totally ensures that the
message isn't received but Snape is wonderfully clueless to how his
actions are preceived by everybody else.  I do think its why he
reveres Dumbledore: Dumbledore saw through the exterior Snape to the
inner wizard.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 21:07:44 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:07:44 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <20010411204406.28864.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b2h30+c0p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16424

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ESJ <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, 
what if Arabella
> Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher in Book 
Five? Now that Vold.
> is in power and Dumbledore is starting to round up his posse, I 
would think that
> she would be there as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to 
help Harry.
> Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, 
because maybe she's
> the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's every summer because 
she's protecting
> Harry. Perhaps she could be Dumbledore's female counterpart. 
> 
> Also, my friend pointed this out this morning, Mrs. Figg must have 
known that Harry
> was a wizard, but how come she never really acted as excited as the 
other wizards
> and witches in the community about Harry?
> 
> -Erin J.
> 

Because it would blow here cover!!!




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Wed Apr 11 21:07:49 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:07:49 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <20010411204406.28864.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b2h35+fff0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16425

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ESJ <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, 
what if Arabella
> Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher in Book 
Five? Now that Vold.
> is in power and Dumbledore is starting to round up his posse, I 
would think that
> she would be there as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to 
help Harry.
> Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, 
because maybe she's
> the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's every summer because 
she's protecting
> Harry. Perhaps she could be Dumbledore's female counterpart. 
> 
> Also, my friend pointed this out this morning, Mrs. Figg must have 
known that Harry
> was a wizard, but how come she never really acted as excited as the 
other wizards
> and witches in the community about Harry?
> 
> -Erin J.
> 

Because it would blow her cover!!!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Apr 11 21:10:03 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:10:03 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b2ba7+6btm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2h7b+prrc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16426

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> I've read [The Aeneid and Paradise Lost] Do you consider them fanfic? And I only worry about 
> fanfic when it comes to Harry Potter. I don't care this passionately 
> about any other books. Sounds weird, but it's true. So what if 
> someone writes a pastiche of Sherlock Holmes or even Janet Evanovich, 
> both of which I read with great delight. I just don't care as much 
> about them.
	What's weird is that I read Harry Potter fan fiction because I *
do* care passionately about the books. I don't have the same desire to 
read, say, Star Wars, either the professional or amateur continuations. 			
I think the Aeneid and Paradise Lost can be considered fan fiction 
since they both involve characters and episodes originally invented by 
others, and both authors would probably have been vastly insulted if 
you suggested that they wrote verse for money. Milton got paid all of 
10 pounds for Paradise Lost.
Pippin





From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 21:37:51 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:37:51 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Diary/Voldemort's Risen Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010411125608.00c18c50@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9b2irf+pscu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16427

 <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> I agree with everything you say, except that I think it would
> be worse for old Lucius if Voldy *did* know about the
> Chamber.  Something like this may have happened:
> 
> (Scene: The Graveyard.  Harry has just escaped.)
> 
> Malfoy: My Lord, may I suggest that all is not lost?
>       We'll get Potter some other way.
> V: Yes, Lucius.  I suspect you are just the person to
>       ask about that.  Wormtail tells me you used
>       my school diary to open the Chamber of Secrets.
> M: Yes My Lord, I did.
> V: Very resourceful, Lucius.
> M: Thank you, my Lord.
> V: You found a way to bring me back to power without being
>       answerable for your past neglect and disobedience to your
>       Master!
> M: Yes -- I mean, NO my Lord!
> V: (With menace in his voice)Your ingenius little plan appears to 
have gone
>        a trifle awry, Lucius. Your attempt to "clone" me was 
thwarted by
>        Harry Potter, and here I am, back in power.  And Lucius, as 
you
>        shall see in a moment, Lord Voldemort intends to make you
>        answerable!
> M: No, NO!
> V: (Raises his wand) Crucio!!
> 
> So I think it's just as well Voldy doesn't know, if indeed he 
doesn't.

LOL!  Dave, that's spot on, and it's hilarious.  I mean, inasmuch as 
Crucio can be hilarious.  <g>  Yes, this is exactly why I posted this 
topic - I'd forgotten that Wormtail knows all about it.  So many 
details, the head spins.  Now, I can't imagine that Wormtail wouldn't 
tell Voldemort... but then why would V leave it out of his tally, when 
he's detailing his second rise?  Maybe just because it's irrelevant, 
as Tom existed separately from what Voldemort was actually physically 
going through at the time?  

~Arabella




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 21:45:55 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:45:55 -0000
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
In-Reply-To: <9b2ba7+6btm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2jaj+6uik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16428

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
>

(Pops out of lurkerdom.)
 I'm occupying an intermediate position. I'm not going to go out 
reading HP fanfic until the series is over. I'm too busy waiting to 
see what JKR will do, because I feel there is just so much to be 
revealed. And I agree that pastiches probably do alter the reader's 
perspective in subtle ways, and that to fanfic or not to is a 
personal choice. 

<snip>
> > 	
> > Pippin, who is wondering if your determination to avoid all 
fanfic 
> > extends to The Aeneid or Paradise Lost?
> 
> I've read both. Do you consider them fanfic? And I only worry about 
> fanfic when it comes to Harry Potter. I don't care this 
passionately 
> about any other books. Sounds weird, but it's true. So what if 
> someone writes a pastiche of Sherlock Holmes or even Janet 
Evanovich, 
> both of which I read with great delight. I just don't care as much 
> about them.
> 

For me, it's because JKR isn't done yet. If HP was one book, or the 
series was over, I'd probably be maniacally seeking out fic, like I 
do for other things, which are done, I'm a fan of. 
You could kind of argue that Paradise Lost is "fanfic" or that 
Inferno is as well, because certainly they color our perceptions of 
the Bible (I mean, look at what Inferno has done to our way of 
thinking about hell, and Paradise Lost about the devil...both of 
which were not as well developed in the original text :) ) in ways 
that the original was not intended to further. 

Charmian
(who's currently thinking about the status of completed incomplete 
manuscripts, like the one someone did of Dorothy Sayer's Thrones, 
Dominations)






From arabella at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 11 21:49:36 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:49:36 -0000
Subject: Ginny: Chart Review?
In-Reply-To: <9b2eis+dd5o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2jhg+hhpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16429


> > For me, this says that Ginny is very loyal to her family (which 
you 
> already 
> > outlined) but I can see further that the girl has a sense of 
humour 
> that 
> > hopefully JKR will develop in the next books.  Now why she was 
> laughing is 
> > unclear: it could be just the way Ron was acting (hell, I thought 
> that was 
> > funny when I read it myself) or it could be because she was 
> laughing at the 
> > whole strange turn of events: Ron gets turned down by Fleur, while 
> Hermione 
> > got asked out by Krum.  This is just my analysis of Ginny, IMOHO.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Paula 
> > Gryffindor
> 
> I think I mentioned one of my favourite Ginny scenes recently - when 
> she stands up for Harry when he is being mocked by Draco in the 
> bookshop at the beginning of CoS.  She stands her ground, glares at 
> Draco, overcomes her shyness of Harry because she wants to defend 
him 
> and behaves very unlike the weedy, wimpish, wet that many believe 
her 
> to be.
> 
> I don't even want to get started on the Yule Ball again, as I am 
> starting to feel like a broken record, and a guess a few of you 
> probably think I am writing like one as well, but again - 
> sensitivity, restrained humour bubbling under the surface, 
honourable 
> (she honours her date with Neville), perhaps proud (I wouldn't be 
> surprised if she thought that she would be selling herself short if 
> she went to the ball with Harry, knowing he wanted to be with 
someone 
> else) - generally much more mature than her elder brother.
> 
> I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.
> 
> Catherine

Oh, but Ginny ranting is so satisfying. :)  Yes, I love it when she 
stands up to Malfoy in CoS.  The only moments I can think to add to 
all these wonderful moments (thanks, Milz) are her mischievous little 
grin, which she exchanges with Harry on platform nine and 
three-quarters, (isn't it?  no books in front of me here) over Percy 
and Penelope.  And the fact that she admits to them all on the train 
that Percy was kissing in classrooms.  And her laughter with Ron on 
the stairs of the Burrow, when they're explaining the Wizard Wheezes 
to Harry.  She's so *normal* at that moment on the stairs - Harry's 
there but she's not tongue tied, she goes right off when he asks why 
Ron is calling the owl Pig.  "Because he's being stupid.  It's proper 
name is Pigwidgeon."  I just think she's great. 

~Arabella




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 21:56:37 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:56:37 -0000
Subject: What are we here for? (was Re: Compassion for Draco?)
In-Reply-To: <9b2f66+100ui@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2jul+h5k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16430

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom 
<screamingsilence at g...> 
> 
> 
> > Once again, this is only my opinion, not to be trashed or told 
it's 
> wrong. OPINION, not fact. Thank you.
> > ~Echo
> > *proudly -NOT- a nitpicker*
> 
> 
> If you are forbidding people to argue with you, you are effectively 
> discouraging people from responding and interacting with you. 
> OPINIONS can be wrong - it is the main difference between them and 
> facts. Personally speaking, I have little interest in opinions that 
> are stated with no attempt to justify them.
>  
> 
> Naama, getting crusty in her old age..


Just because I might take issue with what another has to say, it does 
not therefore follow that I am the enemy of that person.  I delight
in a spirited back-and-forth.  If I cross the bounds of courtesy and 
Group mores, I hope that the moderator(s) will let me know my 
transgression. Can we not disagree while remaining agreeable?  And I 
only pit the tastiest and crunchiest nits, before they grow into lice.

Haggridd




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Apr 11 22:11:38 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:11:38 +0100
Subject: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations 
Message-ID: <027c01c0c2d4$63f48b40$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16431

First of all, I like reading fanfic. Penny, Carole and Lori, I hope all
know that. And Ebony - I always look forward to betaing for you.

I think that I and many others are perfectly able to distinguish fanfic
from what JKR has set up.
I read fanfic because I like the stories. But I won't give two hoots if
JKR takes the characters in another direction.

Am I the only one who wants to be amazed by the sheer brilliance of her
plotting and storytelling. My first thought after finishing GOF was Whoa
!!! That was amazing. I've never been taken on a journey like that. And
it's just the beginning.

As far as I'm concerned, JKR can take her world in whatever direction
she wants, I'll stick with it. The thing that concerns me is that I'm
getting attached the to the people in this world - The Weasleys,
Dumbledore, McGonagall, Sirius. I have never ever cried over a book and
Cedric's demise did not make me cry.  But it's what I dread most with
the coming instalments.

I wonder if my attachment has anything to do with listening to the
audiobooks ( just starting the Stephen Fry GOF ). Will this colour the
way I read OotP ? I can't say. But I really don't know if I want to read
book 5 alone if it will make me cry. Yet I will marvel at the way that
JKR has written something to pull me in that emotional direction.

Michelle






From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Apr 11 22:17:34 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:17:34 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <9b0tkp+8vh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2l5u+1s20@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16432

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> That kind of coloring of what's actually there is what I do not 
want 
> to have happen to me. I don't WANT to feel sympathetic toward Draco 
> or Snape. That's not the way the characters are portrayed in the 
> books. (No, it isn't; they're stereotypes, let's face it). I want 
to 
> hold on to the actual characters, the ones JKR gives us, even if 
> they're stereotypical, and if she suprises me with a twist 
somewhere 
> along the line--if Snape turns out to be really a nice guy that 
we've 
> all misunderstood along with Harry, for example--I will be 
delighted 
> to let HER have that honor. Until then, I don't want someone else 
> doing it for me.
> 
> So by all means, enjoy fanfic. I'm really, honestly not against it 
at 
> all for anyone (but me). But understand that, as these posts have 
so 
> eloquently pointed out, you do lose something special along with 
the 
> things you gain. You forever lose JKR's own version of the 
characters 
> she has created. 
-------------------------------
<g> Only speaking for myself--and speaking heresy at that -- I can 
say I would have lost something else if I didn't read and write 
fanfic. I would have lost interest in the books long ago. I'm fond of 
them, love them, always will, will always look forward to new 
installments, but there isn't a chance on earth that I could have 
maintained this level of interest without fanfic. Fanfic is like 
discussion taken several steps farther -- I get to see 'what might 
be', and have never, so far, had any trouble keeping fanon and canon 
straight. I am fond of my Draco. I detest JKR's Draco. I have yet to 
experience a significant blurring of the line.

Also, I would disagree that fanfic *necessarily* has anything to do 
with people having sympathetic feelings towards Snape and Draco. I 
used to belong to the Harry Potter Table Talk group over on 
Salon.com, where *nobody* read or had heard of fanfic. There were 
dozens of enthusiastic Snape fans, based entirely on what is shown of 
him in canon. I recently talked to a friend who had just finished the 
books and has never read or heard of fanfic, and asked who her 
favorite character was. She said, "I get a kick out of Draco Malfoy." 
People have different interpretations of the characters, always will -
- there is no one 'right way to see them' and the only explanation of 
a disagreement of opinion is not contamination by fanfic.

Cassie




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 11 22:29:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:29:43 -0000
Subject: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations
In-Reply-To: <027c01c0c2d4$63f48b40$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9b2lsn+euq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16433

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> First of all, I like reading fanfic. Penny, Carole and Lori, I hope 
all
> know that. And Ebony - I always look forward to betaing for you.
> 
> I think that I and many others are perfectly able to distinguish 
fanfic
> from what JKR has set up.
> I read fanfic because I like the stories. But I won't give two hoots 
if
> JKR takes the characters in another direction.
> 
> Am I the only one who wants to be amazed by the sheer brilliance of 
her
> plotting and storytelling. My first thought after finishing GOF was 
Whoa
> !!! That was amazing. I've never been taken on a journey like that. 
And
> it's just the beginning.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, JKR can take her world in whatever 
direction
> she wants, I'll stick with it. The thing that concerns me is that 
I'm
> getting attached the to the people in this world - The Weasleys,
> Dumbledore, McGonagall, Sirius. I have never ever cried over a book 
and
> Cedric's demise did not make me cry.  But it's what I dread most 
with
> the coming instalments.
> 
> I wonder if my attachment has anything to do with listening to the
> audiobooks ( just starting the Stephen Fry GOF ). Will this colour 
the
> way I read OotP ? I can't say. But I really don't know if I want to 
read
> book 5 alone if it will make me cry. Yet I will marvel at the way 
that
> JKR has written something to pull me in that emotional direction.
> 
> Michelle

I know that the Jim Dale readings influenced me strongly, and I had 
read the books prior to listening to them.  Can anybody compare Jim 
Dale and Steven Fry?  Would it be worth trying to obtain the Fry 
readings after having heard the Jim Dale recordings?

Haggridd




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 22:26:22 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:26:22 -0500
Subject: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
References: <9b23ct+53sl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4DA0E.37CEE288@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16434

Hi --

Okay, I'm going to try one more time ..... because I too am fond of
Steve, and I think we are still not communicating fully.  :--)

A few prefatory points:

1.  I don't care at all if someone hates fanfic or why they hate it.
Doesn't bother me at all.  I'm really & truly not offended, either as an
author or avid consumer of fanfic.

2.  I'm not trying to convert people who wish to avoid fanfic.  That's
not my point either.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> *I* don't know. *You* don't know. The writers of fanfic don't know.
> We're all assuming and interpreting and changing what's there. And
> what I try to avoid are other people's assumptions and creative
> alterations of the characters.

Okay.  But, you discuss things on this group, right?  How does that
discussion and analysis not color your perceptions of the canon?  Can
you honestly say that you read the back & forth debates on say Ron since
we're talking about him this week and aren't at all influenced by the
discussions (you may not read the Ron posts but fill in the blank of the
discussions of any character that you do follow)?

If someone read the books and they didn't join any internet groups, read
any book reviews, listen to any talk shows with JKR on them, read any of
the chats, or talk to *anybody* about the books, then they could have a
valid claim that their interpretation is solely their own and not at all
influenced by others.  But, I find it very hard to believe that someone
who's as active on this group as you are, Steve, isn't the least bit
affected by the discussions (or the things you've read, such as book
reviews or commentary like Peg's excellent analyses).  I guess I just
don't understand how you can believe that you have a pure
"uncontaminated by outside influences or the opinions/thoughts/analyses
of others" view of the canon when you're a member of an active group
full of intelligent people who seemingly have nothing else to do than
dissect these books to pieces.  <vbg>  [myself included]

> I said: > You believe that Snape is a stereotype.  There are lots of
> other people, including Amanda who spoke out in support of your post,
> who think Snape is anything *but* a stereotype.  Which one of you is
> correct?  JKR hasn't *said* that he is or isn't a stereotype.
>
> Steve again: You are right. But neither is he a multi-leveled, subtley
> shaded, nuanced character of the type you find in literature.

By literature, do you mean fanfic or literature in a broader sense?

> His actions are almost invariably somewhere between rude and downright
> despicable. There is virtually nothing in the canon besides that.
> <snip> No, I don't know what JKR might do with the character down the
> line.   No, I can't state her intentions any better than anyone else
> can. But
> I can read (and I am also a lit major, BTW, undergrad and postgrad).
>

Again, this is your interpretation of Snape's canon actions.  You're
making some flat-out statements about Snape's character and implying
very strongly that anyone else who sees something different is wrong.
I'm looking at your sentence above that says "There is virtually nothing
in the canon besides that."  I want to be fair, but the only way I can
intepret your language is to say that you're saying there is only one
way to read the text.  Other people on this list would vehemently
disagree with your read on Snape; they could point to any number of
places *in the canon* that support their position. Does it matter
ultimately if they (a) thought up their own canon reasons why Snape is
on the right side, or (b) if they read some fanfic that caused them to
go back to the canon & re-examine their views of his character & his
actions?  As long as that person is citing the canon, their
interpretation of Snape is as valid as your interpretation.  Isn't it?

> You notice that I went out of my way to say that for many people,
> fanfic is exactly the way they want to enjoy their Harry Potter.
> That's terrific. I am not disparaging that (although I can't seem to
> say that clearly enough to stop the knee-jerk defensive reactions).
> My intention is not to convince people not to read fanfic! It just
> seems that some people don't understand why others might NOT want to
> read it.

It truly doesn't matter to me if you read fanfic or not, Steve.  But,
what your original post this morning said to me was: you who read fanfic
cannot possibly be interpreting the characters as they are written.  You
seemed to definitely be saying that there is only one way to interpret a
character and that is by reading what's on the page.  That seems to
still be your main point -- see above ("But, I can read").   Great!
But, what's on the page is open to as many interpretations as there are
pairs of eyes reading it.  I have the impression from your posts today
that you think all the characters are rather flat, one-dimensional,
uncomplicated beings, whose actions can be perceived by a simple
surface-level read of the books.  I attribute JKR with more complexity
than that.  I enjoy debating these characters -- what are they like,
what might they be like in the next books, what challenges do they
face.  In other words, I'm not satisfied with just "Oh, Snape's an evil
git just like Harry sees him and that's all we can possibly think about
at this point."  I'd rather think about *why* Dumbledore trusts him and
what's in his past.  I don't mind being influenced by Amanda's excellent
posts on this topic anymore than I would being influenced by thoughts of
others expressed through the fanfic medium.

> It is my interpretation, sure. I never said I didn't interpret. I
> know I do, everyone does. Again, that's my point! I don't WANT
> anyone's interpretations to interfere. I can't avoid my own, although
> I do try to keep as objective as possible. But I can avoid others'.
> You should keep in mind that I edit the Lexicon, so I have other
> reasons for keeping only the canon in mind as I work. But I'd feel
> this way whether or not I was the editor of the Lexicon.

Just because you're avoiding fanfic doesn't mean you're avoiding the
interpretations of others.  I know you've commented that you don't read
all the posts on this group (very few of us do these days!) .... but
there wouldn't be much point in your being a member if you didn't read
some of them.  And, if you read some of them .... how can you say that
your perceptions haven't been colored at all?

> And I don't have a problem with that. But there is a tremendous
> difference between discussions and fiction. As a reader and a student
> of literature, I am very aware of the fact that a person's reactions
> to those two types of written expression--discussion/essay and
> fiction--are very different. They each influence perceptions in very
> different ways. Fiction is far more subtle in the way it colors your
> thinking.

But if your objective is to have a completely untainted view of canon,
how is it that a 4-page detailed analysis of Ron's character posted on
this group is going to color your perception of Ron in the canon any
less than reading a fanfic that takes a look at his character?  Once
your perception has been influenced, the damage is done, isn't it?

Again, I could care less who reads fanfic and who doesn't.  But, I take
great issue with the idea that the printed words on the page in the
books are clear, unambiguous and uncomplicated.  My point is: it doesn't
matter if it was my own original thoughts in a re-read or the influence
of Heidi's excellent fanfic Surfeit of Curses -- if I suddenly have a
new thought about Draco's character, how can you say it's wrong (because
it delves deeper than what is "printed on the page")?  Do you *not* take
away anything new from re-reading the books?  If I didn't suddenly see
something new that I'd never noticed before or never thought about each
time I re-read one of the HP books, I don't know that I could sustain
this level of interest.  I just don't see these books as static and
uncomplex.  Perhaps I'm mis-reading your comments, but my impression
from your posts is that you think these books are really quite simple
and that anyone who delves very deeply is off-the-wall.  Please correct
me if I'm wrong though!  :--)

Penny
(fondly too!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Apr 11 22:32:26 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:32:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations
References: <9b2lsn+euq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <029301c0c2d7$498230c0$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16435

 Can anybody compare Jim
> Dale and Steven Fry?  Would it be worth trying to obtain the Fry
> readings after having heard the Jim Dale recordings?
Yes - heard both PoA versions. can't stand JD as he overacts ( my VPHO )
and love the way SF does things. I am really enjoying GOF so far. I
would highly recommend SF. But GOF didn't come cheap !!!!

Michelle




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 22:36:33 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:36:33 -0500
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)
References: <9b1vcc+ploq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4DC71.9B633820@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16436

Hi --

Rosmerta wrote:

> I wonder how fanfic fans, shippers in particular, will feel when Books
> 5, 6 and 7 come out and don't conform to their anticipations? There
> have been some messages previously about what JKR "owes" the readers
> in terms of following up on foreshadowing etc. But it seems like some
> of these expectations are being permaturely fanned by fanfic?

Actually, I know what you're referring to.  Ebony started a thread a few
months ago, making the argument that JKR has created enough ambiguity in
the text regarding the romances that it will be disappointing to some
fans if it is handled in a matter-of-fact way.  Sure, the H/H fans will
be disappointed if JKR pairs Hermione off with Ron.  But, we won't
necessarily think that it means the end of H/H (anymore I daresay than
the R/H fans will abandon hope if it turns out the reverse ... there
will still be 2 books left).  What we would be very disappointed with is
if it is handled as though there's never been a hint of ambiguity in
Hermione's feelings.  What Ebony was saying is that by creating
ambiguity, it will be disingenous in a literary sense (and highly
disappointing from that perspective) if she never addresses the
ambiguity that she created.  I realize some will say, "Well how can she
address it if she doesn't know it's there?"  True enough.  I guess many
of us have faith that it is there for a reason and that it isn't really
so hidden as to be unknown to the author.  <g>

None of the above has anything to do with fanfic really.  Most of the
shippers would say that they took their positions from canon and rely on
fanfic to support their particular ship.  I'm in the minority there, as
I will admit that fanfic influenced me to take another look at the canon
& rethink my favored pairing.  I now have solid canon-based reasons for
supporting H/H though.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Apr 11 22:54:12 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:54:12 -0000
Subject: tiny Lexicon - ...thing
Message-ID: <9b2nak+ra76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16437

To Steve Vander Ark:
I tried to post this comment on the Lexicon in its proper Feedback-
form. However, there seems to be something wrong with it - the 
page "cannot be found" (this loathed computerphrase *trying to stay 
calm*) So, I?m posting it here, hoping for contact with the "Lexicon 
Guy" :)

This might be way too picky. In that case, forgive me... But I do 
remember having read somewhere that you tries to keep the Lexicon 
free from assumptions. At the Detentionpage, there is stated: "Filch 
remembers fondly when he was allowed to suspend guilty students by 
their wrists from the ceiling..." Is there ever actually said that he 
was around to punish student himself in this sort of way? Judging 
from the text, he might as well just have heard about it, and keeps 
the chains to ever have a chance of his own with them. 

/Jennifer
p.s (remember to add mr and mrs Malfoy to the Slytherin-student-page! 
I was so happy to have spotted something you had forgot (Very 
childish, I do know :) I belive myself at least mr Malfoy went to 
Hogwarts about the same time as mr and mrs Weasley, but that would be 
an assumption as well, of course.. :)  d.s 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 22:53:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:53:51 -0500
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather
References: <23.a265669.28052aad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4E07E.866229E5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16438

Hi --

morine10 at aol.com wrote:

> I said: > I think this is very possible.  Why is this necessarily a
> bad thing?> What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to
> succeed
> > academically because it will open doors for her down the road?  She
> may
> > be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than wanting
> > success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or
> athletically)?
> >
>
> Mo said: And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting
> recognition among your family and peers for your accomplishments?  How
> is it any different from wanting financial stability?  How is it that
> one person's wants make them more susceptible to the Dark side than
> those of someone else?

Well ... I really wasn't addressing that issue (susceptibility to the
Dark Side) at all.  I was really delving into Demelza's post about
Hermione's "pathological (bordering on OCD)" studying and desire for
academic success.  Demelza just makes Hermione's studying sound so
disturbing ... as though she's mentally ill for studying hard.  I was
just curious *why* Hermione's desire to succeed academically would
prompt Demelza to characterize her as coming close to having OCD.

But, to your point.  Yes, Hermione's desire for academic success is her
buggaboo.  It is a well-known vulnerability/weakness and could be used
against her by the dark side.  But, I agree completely with Kristin who
argued that Hermione thinks things through more clearly & logically than
Ron does.  Note: I'm not saying that Hermione is more intelligent than
Ron and therefore less likely to be a victim of the Dark Side.  I'm
saying she's a logical cool-headed thinker for the most part; and Ron
is, for the most part, not.  She's *less* likely to fall prey to the
Dark Side for that reason (not because her insecurities are any less
known or less problematic than Ron's are).  As Kristin said, Ron has a
vulnerability in his desire for money & his ambitions .... but what
makes him most vulnerable to being an unwilling pawn is his
vulnerabilities *coupled with* his impulsiveness, temper and tendency to
make off-the-cuff emotional decisions.  IMO of course.

Penny

>
>
> I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that different.
>
> ~Moey
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> "Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?"
>         -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 23:01:29 2001
From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (China Chick)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:01:29 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's wand
References: <20010410011721.66609.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE280h5gtmPghdQg9uJ000033fc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16440

I agree on all acounts.  BTW:  Who said the quote?  I'm putting together a web page and want to have a "Quote Book."  Let me know.  

~Adrienne~
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andrea 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:17 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's wand


  --- heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
  > No, that's a unicorn tail - "Look at this," said
  > Ron, pulling a long thin box out of a bag and
  > opening it. "Brand-new wand. Fourteen inches,
  > willow, containing one
  > unicorn tail-hair. And we've got all our books --"
  > He pointed at a large
  > bag under his chair. "What about those Monster
  > Books, eh? The assistant
  > nearly cried when we said we wanted two."

  [SOB!] I was trying to delude myself, thank you very
  much. [sigh] I think if any Weasely brother dies,
  it'll be Percy.  BTW, I *don't* believe that Percy
  will become a DE.  I think he would take Crouch Sr's
  approach instead and become absolutely *vicious* in
  the elimination of evil.


  Andrea II

  =====
  "Reality is for people who lack imagination."

  __________________________________________________
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  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

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From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Wed Apr 11 23:03:49 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:03:49 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry
In-Reply-To: <3AD37EEF.EB3A4B96@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16441

I'm going to address the last part first. It might clear up a few 
things.

Penny wrote:
> > The only way I think I can objectively dissect and analyse the
> > characters is to examine their actions within the context of the
> > chapter(s) as they take place. I think using the final outcome to
> > interpret their actions in earlier chapters (or in earlier books)
> > gives a somewhat tainted analysis of their actions 'in situ'.
> 
> I don't get your point here, Demelza.  You have to look at overall
? context to interpret their actions (and you do that I might add).  

I don't review medical charts like Milz, but I have a science 
background. So I approach the analysis of the characters with a few 
things in mind. One is the "Self-fulfilling prophecy" phenomenon: the 
researcher subconsciously manipulates the data to support his 
hypothesis or final outcome. The other is the "Heisenberg Uncertainty 
Principle": even at the sub-atomic level, there is a margin of error. 
Therefore, as the complexity of the system increases,  so does the 
margin of error. Essentially, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle 
forces you to acknowledge error and to acknowledge that no system is 
100% predictable. Being that the Harry Potter series is a work in 
progress, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle serves as a reminder 
that the fate of these characters aren't set in stone, yet.
The way I interpret/analyze the characters and/or the hypotheses given 
in this forum is similar to the way I've been taught to analyze data 
within a scientific article.  That is, I read  the article. Then I 
examine the data in light of the researcher's conclusions. Then I 
examine the methodology used to obtain that data.  Then I look at the 
statistical model the researchers used to determine if that data 
supported their hypothesis. If the methodology supports the data, if 
the statistics support the data, then the hypothesis is sound within a 
prescribed margin of error. 
Because this isn't a scientific article, I have to modify my method. 
So when I read "Hermione was right; Ron is so jealous of Harry". I go 
to my source of data: the books and find that passage. I read the 
passage. Then I read it again, in light of the conclusion. Then I go 
through the prior books and the chapters leading up to that passage to 
find anything that can support or negate that conclusion. Since this 
is a book of fiction, I modify the statistics step by "weighing the 
evidence" to determine if the evidence supports or negates the 
conclusion.
I also keep in mind that the books follow a time continuum and there 
is a specific order of events. At any point in the books, the 
characters knowledge is limited to what has transpired up to that 
point. Therefore their perspective of events at any one time is 
limited to what has transpired up to that point. (The characters in 
chapter 10 of book1 don't know the events of chapter 10 book 3. 
However, the characters in chapter 10, book 3 do know the events of 
chapter 10 book 1 ) Likewise, if I analyze an event in PS/SS, I have 
to work within the confines of that book alone, because CoS, PoA, GoF 
haven't happened yet in the time continuum. But if I analyze an event 
in Chapter 26 GoF, I have the three prior books plus the first 25 
chapters of GoF to use as resources because they have occurred as of 
Chapter 26 GoF.  It's similar to what Milz does with medical chart 
reviews, examining them as though the events are unfolding before you. 
Medical charts are reviewed in that way so that reviewer can have more 
depth of understanding.
I also try to keep my personal feelings out of my analysis. That's 
very hard to do, especially if you identify with a character or event. 
But, if you begin to interject how you would have behaved or how you 
would have felt rather than trying to figure out why that character, 
as presented by the author, did this or said that you can miss the 
author's point.  It's easy to say "the books are written from Harry's 
point of view and certain events/characters are exaggerated etc." 
However, every word of every sentence is deliberately chosen by the 
author to specifically convey his idea, intent.  Ignore those subtle 
word choices and you miss the author's perspective. Being that the 
author is telling his story, his perspective is important in 
understanding his characters.

> Aren't you using the final outcome in the books to support your
> conclusion that Ron is not jealous of Harry (citing the chess game, 

the
> Aragog incident & when he stands up to Sirius in PoA to support the
> notion that Ron is not a jealous person)?  It seems to me that 

you're
> ignoring some of the other incidents that clearly point that Ron is
> jealous of Harry and pointing to the big picture to say, "No, he 

can't
> be because ...."  
> 
Nope. As I explained above, a hypothesis was put forth that Ron is 
jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Jealousy is an observed 
behavior. Hermione observed this behavior somewhere to make that 
assessment. Because the revelation occurs in Ch 18 GoF, the behavior 
had to have occurred before that chapter and perhaps before GoF.  From 
the number of respondents who support the jealousy theory,  I figure 
readers have observed this same behavior (jealousy of Harry's fame and 
attention) in the earlier books or the earlier chapters of GoF (unless 
they believe all Hermione's assessments to be fact without the need of 
supporting evidence). I looked through the data I had (the books by 
J.K. Rowling) for signs of this observed behavior. I couldn't find 
anything in the prior books or in the chapters leading up to Ch 18. 
GoF that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Again, I would 
be interested to find evidence to supports it.  

> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > As for jealousy of Harry, I'm hard pressed to find anything in the
> > books to indicate he is jealous of HARRY,
> 
> "[Ron] was always touchy about the fact that Harry, who had 

inherited a
> small fortune from his parents, had much more money than he did."  

[GoF,
> Chapter 7]
> 
> Look at the conversation between Harry & Hermione in GoF, Chapter 

18,
> re: Ron's jealousy.  Hermione explains it quite well, and Harry 

doesn't
> deny it.  Hermione herself says that Ron keeps it to himself for the
> most part, but *it is there.*   She and Harry both know it.  Harry
> doesn't dispute her thoughts on this.
> 
> "Must be nice .... to have so much money you don't notice if a 

pocketful
> of Galleons goes missing." [GoF, Chapter 28]
> 
> > <snip all the incidents of Ron's bravery/self-sacrifice> Those 

aren't
> > the actions of a jealous person.
> 
> Well, I don't think anyone would argue that he walks around 

displaying
> nothing but jealousy all the time.  But, he can still be brave &
> self-sacrificing in times of danger but *also* be jealous of Harry.
> 

I agree: let's look at GoF Ch 18
Setting: It's the morning after the fight with Ron. On the way to 
breakfast, Harry is met by Hermione, carrying a stack of toast. They 
go outside to the grounds and Harry tells her his side of the story. 
Hermione says that she saw the look on his face and believes him. 
***
"Have you seen Ron?" Harry interrupted.
Hermione hesistated.
"Erm
yes
he was at breakfast," she said.
"Does he still think I entered myself?"
"Well
no, I don't think so
not _really_" said Hermione awkwardly.
"What's that supposed to mean, 'not really'?"
"Oh Harry isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's 
jealous."
"_Jealous_?" Harry said incredulously. "Jealous of what? He wants to 
make a prat of himself in front of the whole school, does he?"
"Look, " said Hermione patiently, "it's always you who gets all the 
attention, you know it is. I know it's not your fault, " she added 
quickly seeing Harry open his mouth furiously. "I know you don't ask 
for it
but--well--you know, Ron's got all those brothers to compete 
against at home, and you're his best friend, and you're really 
famous--he's always shunted to one side whenever people see you, and 
he puts up with it, and he never mentions it, but I suppose this is 
just one time too many
"
"Great," said Harry [Penny quoted the remainder of the passage]
***
Clearly, Hermione thinks Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. 
Sure, money 'makes you handsome, intelligent, and a good dancer' and 
we all know the Weasley's aren't rolling in money, but Hermione 
SPECIFICALLY tells Harry that it's the attention and fame that Ron 
envies. As I wrote above, I've looked for evidence to support this in 
the previous books and in the chapters leading up to Ch. 18 GoF. I 
can't find anything that even hints that Ron is jealous of Harry's 
fame and attention he garners. If there's anything there, let me know.
 
> > When Harry's name pops out of the Goblet, Ron is
> > surprized. But think about it, Harry has included Ron in all of 

his
> > escapades. Why should Harry leave him out now? Ron's been a loyal
> > friend. Ron's been supportive of Harry. Ron has risked his life 

for
> > Harry. Yet, he thinks his best friend has left him out of the 

loop.
> > I've seen real-life relationships disintegrate for similar
> > reasons--lack of communication, misunderstanding and foolish 

pride.
> > But Hermione interprets this as "jealousy" of Harry's fame???
> 
> Yeah.  This doesn't seem irrational to me.  It's certainly not 

regarded
> as irrational to either Hermione or Harry (see above).  Harry 

doesn't
? look at Hermione and say, "What?  Jealous?  How'd you get *that*?"  

He
> says, "Great.  Really great.  Tell him from me I'll swap anytime he
> wants. .... I'm not running around after him trying to make him grow
> up!  Maybe he'll believe I'm not enjoying myself once I've got my 

neck
> broken or --"


Please see the above quoted section from GoF Ch 18. Harry is 
"incredulous" at this jealousy revelation.
Later in Ch 18 can be found this curious passage:
***
Harry didn't answer. Yes, everything did seem to happen to him
that 
was more or less what Hermione had said as they walked about the lake, 
and that was the reason, according to her, that Ron was no longer 
talking to him.
***
"that was the reason, according to [Hermione], that Ron was no longer 
talking to him."
Interesting choice of words J.K.Rowling has chosen. It doesn't say 
"that was the reason Ron was no longer talking to him". It qualifies 
that this is _Hermione's_ reason, with almost implying that Harry 
that's not Harry's reason too. 

> Hermione saw how shocked & scared Harry was.  *She* was perceptive
> enough to pick up on this.  Ron, however, did not.  He leapt to the
> conclusion that Harry had put his name into the Goblet, had found a 

way
> to circumvent the age-line & had left him out of it.  There's that
> leaping to conclusions again.  Why would Ron not be able to see the 

same
> reactions on Harry's face that Hermione did?  If it's not because he
> leapt to conclusions (out of jealousy or impulsiveness), then *what* 

was
> the reason?
> 
GoF Ch 17
Setting: Harry's name has been announced. The Great Hall is silent. 
All eyes are glued on him.
***
Harry turned to Ron and Hermione; beyond them, he saw the long 
Gryffindor table all watching him, openmouthed.
"I didn't put my name in," Harry said blankly. "You know I didn't."
Both of them stared just as blankly back.
***
Harry spend the majority of the chapter with the other champions and 
teachers in the room off the Great Hall. At the impromptu Gryffindor 
celebration, Ron and Hermione are not present (or at least not 
mentioned in that section). The chapter ends with the Ron and Harry 
feud. Hermione is not seen until the beginning of Ch 18 when she, 
carrying a stack of toast, meets Harry on the stairs. Only AFTER Harry 
tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she noticed his 
demeanor and that she believed him.
 
As I've written before, Ron doesn't like to be left out. In PoA, he's 
miffed that Hermione kept the Time-Turner a secret the whole year. In 
GoF, Ch 17 Ron brings up that Harry could have used the Invisibility 
Cloak and that both of them would have been able to fit under it. 
Clearly, Ron feels left out. From Ron's point of view, he feels 
isolated. He feels angry that his best friend of 3 years doesn't trust 
him enough to outsmart the Goblet together. Solely looking from Ron's 
point of view, Harry was acting out of character. Likwise, from 
Harry's point of view, his best friend of 3 years doesn't believe him 
and Ron was acting out of character.

> > Her near pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a 

cry
> > for
> > attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of
> > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder)
> 
> I saw that Heidi addressed this already.  I agree completely that
> Hermione displays no signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. 


Right now I'm doing a very Hermione-like thing. I'm consulting a 
library book. I'm not an expert in this field but, like Hermione, I'm 
confident the books will help me along. 
This is from the diagnostic criteria of DSM-4R manual published by the 
American Psychiatric Association (APA)
"301.4 Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, 
and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, 
openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in 
a variety of contents, as indicated by four (or more) of the 
following:
1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or 
schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g. is 
unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict 
standards are not met)
3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to exclusion of 
leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious 
economic necessity)
4. is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of 
morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or 
religious identification)
5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they 
have no sentimental value
6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they 
submit to exactly his of her was of doing things
7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money 
is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophies
8. shows rigidity and stubbornness"

According to guidelines used by the APA, Hermione exhibits partial 
clinical signs of OCD (1, 3, 4-the SPEW phase, 8 -Crookshanks). 
Hermione is saved from an OCD diagnosis because her behaviors haven't 
interfered with her daily functioning. In the meantime, she can be 
possibly diagnosed as Personality Disorder, NOS which is a category 
for disorders that do not meet criteria for any specific Personality 
Disorder.
Again, I'm not an expert, but I'm merely trying to show that 
Hermione's behaviors are not without a mental health concern.

? Why is her
> desire to achieve academically a bad thing?
> 
  
Desiring academic acheivement is no different than desiring financial 
stability or fame. Both can be 'good' because it can serve as 
motivation. Both can be 'bad' when that desire becomes overwhelming to 
the point of self-destruction.  

> > But her studying and academic success is not met with overt 

admiration
> > of her peers. She is considered a 'bossy know it all' but her
> > classmates and at least one teacher, Snape.
> 
> She's alot less of a bossy know-it-all by GoF.  She's done alot of
> maturing.  IMO
> 
> > He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.
> 
> Um .... yes & no.  He was silent & hardly able to do more than heave
> himself into the car.  I don't know that it's fair to say that he 

truly
> confronted & overcame his fears.
> 

Phobias can be debilitating to those who have them. For someone with a 
phobia , for example of frogs, to even be in the same room with the 
object is a tremendous accomplishment. Sure Ron was pale and 
diaphoretic, but he still faced Aragog and overcame his fear, even if 
it was a little. Hermione on the other hand, ran screaming from her 
boggart. 

This is what I like about this group. It forces me to read the books 
again and I find new things in them time and time again.  

This is the sequence of events following the Ron-Harry fallout and the 
roll Hermione plays in it.
Ch 17. Ron and Harry have harsh words and go to sleep.
Ch 18. Paragraph one: Harry wakes up and "sat up and ripped back the 
curtains of his own four-poster, intending to talk to Ron, to force 
him to believe him--only to find Ron's bed empty; he had obviously 
gone to breakfast."
As he makes his way downstairs to the Great Hall, he bumps into 
Hermione, carrying a stack of toast. They go outside and talk.  Harry 
asks if Hermione had seen Ron that morning. Then Hermione reveals her 
jealousy assessment. Harry loses interest in what he had planned to do 
when he awoke that morning: sort things out with Ron.

Hermione's talk with Harry somehow deters Harry from seeking out Ron. 
Perhaps if I put this im my penseive and look at it later I might be 
able to figure out why this sequence of events is moderately 
disturbing.

Demelza




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 23:00:03 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:00:03 -0500
Subject: Ron and the Dark Side
References: <9b0m2k+g8sn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4E1F3.32A21021@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16442

Hi --

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> IMO Harry has shown just as much impetuousness in passing judgement
> quickly, leaping to ill-considered conclusions as Ron has. What I was
> saying was that these traits are not solely bound to Ron. Harry DOES
> have them too, or else we'd have a pretty boring series <g> and so
> does Hermione IMO.

Chapter and verse please?  :--)  Harry does make some rash statements in
PS/SS (I just re-listened to the CDs this past week).  But, since then,
he's starting thinking things through more carefully.  He's not as
logical as Hermione in his approach, but he's not likely to say the
first thing that comes to mind like Ron does.  If you disagree, please
just point out examples.  As the Missourians say: *Show me*!  I gave
lots of examples from GoF regarding Ron's impetuousness & ill-considered
pronouncements -- posting from Monday I believe.

> Hermione, as smart as she is is not infallible.

Nope.  But, she is IMO overall a less likely victim than Ron.

> Being hot-headed, hot-tempered, leaping to the wrong
> conclusion is not Ron's sole perogative. These traits do not
> automatically mean that 'he could unintentionally fall into their
> trap through carelessness'. But once again I want to point out that
> he has had these weaknesses from book 1 and in all four books he has
> NOT betrayed Harry intentionally or otherwise and his loyalty HAS
> been tested. :)

His loyalty has been tested by the Dark Side?  Again, *show me.*  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Apr 11 23:07:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:07:14 -0500
Subject: The Ron/Harry Right; and Ron & Hermione - Ambitions
References: <9b1fbf+a8a6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4E3A2.68B2F77C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16443

Hi --

I agree with all those that posted about the Harry/Ron fight this
afternoon.  There can be no 100% right or wrong, Eggplant.  Things just
aren't that black & white.  It was also as clear to me as lots of others
that Harry did his fair share to prolong that fight.  I *do* blame Ron
for starting it, and I love whoever posted the little inner monologue
that was likely going on within Harry.  Ron was so incredibly foolish
IMO.  First, Hermione could see by the expression on Harry's face that
he was shocked & scared; Ron let his best friend down greatly by not
seeing the same thing.  Second, he let his jealousy & insecurity lead
him into making a rash, ill-considered judgment.  Back to my original
point.  :--)  *But,* both boys were clearly stubborn in prolonging the
fight.

Wish I'd combined this with my earlier post on this topic since it's a
"me too" (but, I did have something new to add above!).  Oh well.

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> So, as far as I'm concerned, comparing their ambitions
> is interesting in itself - not as a prelude to deciding which one is
> likely to "succumb" to Dark Side temptations.
> Having made this clear, I can now point out that the great difference
> between Ron and Hermione in their ambtitions, is that Ron does
> absolutely nothing to fulfill his ambition. He wants to shine - but
> he doesn't make exceptionall efforts in any area that we can see -
> not school work, not Quidditch, not even playing practical jokes..
> He feels miserable at times, but I'm not sure whether he doesn't care
> enough , or has too little faith in himself, to make an effort
> Hermione, OTOH, grits her teeth and puts all she's got into
> accomplishing what she has set herself to accomplish. I don't see it
> as an unhealthy obsession, but as a determination to succeed coupled
> with sincere intellectual interest.

Naama!  We agree!  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 11 23:15:26 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:15:26 -0000
Subject: tiny Lexicon - ...thing
In-Reply-To: <9b2nak+ra76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2oif+6scc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16444

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> To Steve Vander Ark:
> I tried to post this comment on the Lexicon in its proper Feedback-
> form. However, there seems to be something wrong with it - the 
> page "cannot be found" (this loathed computerphrase *trying to stay 
> calm*) So, I?m posting it here, hoping for contact with 
the "Lexicon 
> Guy" :)

Yeah,  my feedback service had a hard drive crash and I've lost that 
contact. They tell me they're going to recover it and so I've sort of 
let it hang, but I HATE broken links and I think I'll have to remove 
it at least temporarily. Sorry about that.

> 
> This might be way too picky. In that case, forgive me... 

Too picky? What's that mean?


But I do 
> remember having read somewhere that you tries to keep the Lexicon 
> free from assumptions.

And you will have also read that I know I can't, no matter how hard I 
try. It still says in a few places that Ginny sent that singing 
Valentine to Harry. I keep intending to fix those...

 At the Detentionpage, there is stated: "Filch 
> remembers fondly when he was allowed to suspend guilty students by 
> their wrists from the ceiling..." Is there ever actually said that 
he 
> was around to punish student himself in this sort of way? Judging 
> from the text, he might as well just have heard about it, and keeps 
> the chains to ever have a chance of his own with them. 

Excellent point. I'll fix it straightaway.


> 
> /Jennifer
> p.s (remember to add mr and mrs Malfoy to the Slytherin-student-
page! 

I'll add them as well. That gives me something to do this evening. :)


> I was so happy to have spotted something you had forgot (Very 
> childish, I do know :) I belive myself at least mr Malfoy went to 
> Hogwarts about the same time as mr and mrs Weasley, but that would 
be 
> an assumption as well, of course.. :)  d.s

Someone brought up the question lately of what happened to 
Voldemort's closest friends at Hogwarts, the ones he used the V-name 
with while still in school. Considering that wizards live longer and 
might therefore have children later in life, I wonder if Mr. Malfoy 
might be one of them. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were very possibly at 
Hogwarts before Tom Riddle, fifty years ago, and they have younger 
children. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 23:28:31 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:28:31 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry
In-Reply-To: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2pav+qdjc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16445

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" <muggle-reader at a...> wrote:
 
> Hermione's talk with Harry somehow deters Harry from seeking out 
Ron. > Perhaps if I put this im my penseive and look at it later I 
might be > able to figure out why this sequence of events is 
moderately  disturbing.
>

Demelza, I read your post with interest.  As I am neither a 
psychiatrist nor a scientist, you gave me insight into an 
interpretation of the Great Fight I would have never come up with on 
my own.

However, I think Occam's Razor applies here:  simple explanations are 
to be preferred over more complicated ones, and that *the explanation 
of a new phenomenon should be based on what is already known*.

Quoting from the above:  "Hermione's talk with Harry somehow deters 
Harry from seeking out Ron."  In order for your interpretation of the 
Fight to be valid, we must assume either one of two things:

1)  Hermione is being intentionally deceptive.
2)  Hermione is mentally unbalanced.

Here is where I can prove that reading of fanfic doesn't give you a 
disadvantage in interpretation.

You see, as a fanfic writer, the statement "Hermione's talk with 
Harry somehow deters Harry from seeking out Ron" made my mind RACE 
with possibilities.  A young writer on ff.net recently began a "Dark 
Hermione" fic, and I am now intrigued with the idea of extrapolating 
a malevolent or psychotic Hermione from canon... can it be done, with 
the fanon creation retaining the "spirit and soul" of JKR's Hermione 
Granger?  After all, if Draco can be redeemed, then Hermione's dark 
side can be explored there as well.

However, as a level-headed reader of canon, I find the notion of 
Option #1 or Option #2 above to be completely invalid.  You cannot 
support deception or mental imbalance on Hermione's part in that 
instance from canon beyond a reasonable doubt.  

After all is said and done, I *still* think what I always "thunk" 
about that fight.  Before becoming involved in online fandom.  Before 
writing HP fanfic or reading popular HP fanfic.  Before even meeting 
a single other HP fan over the age of 14.

Ron was wrong... and he knew it.  I can forgive him (that phrase has 
been used in at least five of the 130 unread posts this evening from 
the group), but as a reader, I can't forget what happened.

If it happened once, it can happen again.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr 11 23:29:24 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:29:24 -0000
Subject: The Ron/Harry Right; and Ron & Hermione - Ambitions
In-Reply-To: <3AD4E3A2.68B2F77C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2pck+8or4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I agree with all those that posted about the Harry/Ron fight this
> afternoon.  There can be no 100% right or wrong, Eggplant.  Things 
just
> aren't that black & white.  It was also as clear to me as lots of 
others
> that Harry did his fair share to prolong that fight.  I *do* blame 
Ron
> for starting it, and I love whoever posted the little inner 
monologue
> that was likely going on within Harry.

That was me.

The reason that Ron and Harry *became* friends at first is partly 
because Ron went, "Okay, you're Famous Harry Potter," got past it, 
got over it, and then went, "You poor kid -- you've been with Muggles 
all this time? Let me show you what you've been missing!"  
[paraphrased]

That's part, to my mind, of what forged that bond between them.  That 
even though Harry was famous, Ron could still show him things he had 
no clue about, help him through things he didn't understand but which 
were known and old hat to Ron.

And further forging the bond,  Ron forgot that they've been there for 
each other through thick and thin.  They defend each other against 
Malfoy. They stop each other from going for Malfoy's throat (though 
Ron's redhead temper tends to make him leap more often than Harry 
does).

Ron made an emotional from the hip reaction.

And Harry, who was already having an emotional moment, reacted 
emotionally, but with the faux-analysis of their history behind him.

Harry knew he'd never lied to Ron.  Of course he'd be upset Ron 
called him a liar. 

(So would I; I've lived that indignity).

Indigo




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Wed Apr 11 23:07:51 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:07:51 -0000
Subject: Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)
In-Reply-To: <3AD3C500.71226802@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2o47+66o2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16447

In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 

wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, 

that
> > passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been
> > supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of
> > familial support.
> 
> What if they made it clear that they didn't want him with them?  It
> might not be so clear-cut as Percy shutting himself off from them.
> Someone else today made a good point about the fact that his 

brothers
> haven't exactly been nice & welcoming to Percy.  Percy may have 

built up
> defense mechanisms over a period of years.

Regardless of the reason, Percy was not supportive of his brothers 
during this trying time. Again, a statement was made that Percy has 
been loyal and supportive of his family. This was an example to the 
contrary.

> > Demelza: Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his 

harsh
> > treatment> > of Winky.
> > >
> > > Me: Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get 

the
> > measure of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius
> > thinks
> > > Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> > > character.
> > >
> >
> > Demelza: Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to
> > co-workers. Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. 

Perhaps
> > this is due to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, 

there
> > is no
> > possibility that he could turn on his family.
> 
> Well, Hermione knows Percy better than lots of other people.  

Somewhere
> in GoF is a comment to the effect that Hermione had always gotten on
> better with Percy than any of his brothers.  They are alot alike and
> have been shown chatting.  I would wager she's basing her assessment 

on
> more than just "He's a Weasley; therefore, there's no possibility he
> could turn on his family."
> 

Yes, it is made in GoF. But Hermione's close identification with Percy 
can cloud her objectivity. Hermione can very well be projecting her 
own characteristics onto Percy, due to their similar personalities. 
Granted, HERMIONE might never turn her family to the Dementors, but 
that doesn't necessarily mean Percy will not, even though they are 
'cut from the same cloth'. As I stated in other messages, I'm a 
reformed Hermione and I can easily identify with her and project my 
own characteristics upon her and rationalize all her actions. But if I 
were to do that, my assessment of Hermione would be tainted, because I 
won't be assessing Hermione I will be assessing me. That's why I have 
a tendency to take Hermione's opinion of Percy with a grain of salt. I 
can't be 50% sure that she is assessing herself, assessing herself and 
Percy, or assessing solely Percy. 

> > If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, 

why
> > should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are
> > incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's 

portrayal,
> > Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's 

pleadings
> > should not have made difference at all.
> 
> It's not just Hermione who portrays him this way.  Sirius has some 

very
> harsh judgments to pass on Crouch, Sr.   He thinks Crouch Sr. did a
> lousy job as a father.  He thinks Crouch was rigid & abused his 

position
> as head of the Magical Law Council (he was the one responsible for
> ordering Sirius be taken to Azkaban with no trial).  Hermione's 

judgment
> was initially based on his treatment of Winky, yes.  But, her 

judgment
> turned out to mesh with that of Sirius in any case.
> 


And how objective is Sirius? Didn't Crouch, Sr. sentence Sirius to 
Azkaban without a trial? Didn't Sirius hear Crouch Jr, crying every 
night? As the books show, Sirius can hold a grudge (ie Snape). . I 
can't be sure if his assessment of Crouch Sr is objective.


> > "Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior 

dictates
> >
> > that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things.
> > Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow 

cat to
> >
> > be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that 

the
> > cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard 

Hermione
> > has for Ron and his possessions.
> 
> Ah well ... since that *is* an argument against R/H, I'll leave it 

be.


I'm not shipper, but in light of Hermione's sensitivity for a 
"friend's" feelings (I hate to see how she would treat a mere 
acquaintance). I agree with you. Ron doesn't deserve Hermione: he 
deserves much better. On second thought, Harry does too.

Demelza





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 23:49:58 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:49:58 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
In-Reply-To: <9b1vcc+ploq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2qj6+bbh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16448

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> Steve wrote,
> 
> You forever lose JKR's own version of the characters 
> > she has created. 
> > 
> 
> I wonder how fanfic fans, shippers in particular, will feel when 
> Books 5, 6 and 7 come out and don't conform to their anticipations? 
> There have been some messages previously about what JKR "owes" the 
> readers in terms of following up on foreshadowing etc. But it seems 
> like some of these expectations are being permaturely fanned by 
> fanfic? 
> 
> ~Rosmerta
> who's trying to remember the Italian word for opera fans who sing 
> along with the divas


Or music lovers that sing, scat, chant, rap and hum along with their 
favorite CDs.  ;-)

I'll begin by picking up on your opera analogy.  When Jessye Norman 
sings, she does not sound like Pavarotti.  Neither does she sound 
like Diana Ross, Christina Aguilera, or Joni Mitchell.

I read the posts about those who want to remain "unsullied" from the 
fanfiction mire... and I shake my head.  

I started reading fanfiction 3-4 months before the release of GoF.  I 
don't think that I got any less from the book than any of the non-
fanfiction readers.  Of course, the volume and caliber of HP 
fanfiction was quite different in those days, but I didn't 
feel "sullied" at all.  

It's quite easy to separate Lori's Hermione, Penny and Carole's 
Sirius, Cassie's Draco, Heidi's Lucius Malfoy, and Al's Harry from 
the JKR Authorized Version.  Anyone beyond the intelligence level of 
a cockroach can do it, and do it easily.

Why?  Well, there's a little thing that we English teachers 
call "style" of the Strunk & White variety.  The style of fan 
writers, even the best of the best, is not JKR's and we all know it.
IMO, my favorite fanfics bear the stamp of genius, and I believe that 
many of those writers will end up publishing original work sooner or 
later, as most of them were "writers" before ever setting foot into 
HP fandom.

But their best songs won't be those with Harry, Ron, or Hermione 
notes, nor Draco codas and Snape overtures.

When it comes to the world of Harry Potter, Jo Rowling sings the tune 
the *best*, hands down.

I don't like the books any less because of reading fanfiction... I 
love them even more.

I can speak only for myself.  But this avid fanfic reader, tongue-in-
cheek fanfic writer, and enthusiastic shipper doesn't place any 
expectations on JKR.  At all.  There are a couple of things I'd like 
to see happen in future books.  There are a couple of things I 
wouldn't like to see.  

So what?

Pre-GoF, I was expecting several things to happen that didn't.  No 
Weasley died.  There was no evil female character.  Cho is not 
Harry's girlfriend, nor did they date.

JKR owes us *nothing*.  If today's post in HP4GU announcements is 
correct, in seven months I'll be once again transported into JKR's 
world... and when all is said and done, I'll be thrilled to be 
there.  She has promised to tell the story *she* set out to tell in 
the beginning, and whatever it is, I'm with her until the end.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (whose voice, in the course of a single evening, 
regularly morphs into those of D'Angelo, Jay-Z, The Beatles, The 
Chieftains, The Stylistics, Lea Salonga, Stevie Wonder, Billie 
Holliday, and Sade... which is why I may seem unbalanced at times. ;-
))




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 00:02:22 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:02:22 -0000
Subject: Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <027c01c0c2d4$63f48b40$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9b2rae+c8qp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16449

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> First of all, I like reading fanfic. Penny, Carole and Lori, I hope 
all know that. And Ebony - I always look forward to betaing for you.
>

:::hugs Michelle, who thoroughly Brit-proofed 68 pages of a chapter 
the other week within 36 hours of receipt:::

Though I respect the wishes of those who do not participate in the 
fanfic community (and admire their firm resolve), another draw for me 
has been the friendships I've made in that niche of HP fandom.  I've 
met some great people who have some really interesting ideas about 
*canon* and have had the chance to interact with fan writers from all 
over the world whose imaginations I'm in awe of.  How cool is that?
  
> Am I the only one who wants to be amazed by the sheer brilliance of 
her> plotting and storytelling. My first thought after finishing GOF 
was Whoa> !!! That was amazing. I've never been taken on a journey 
like that. And> it's just the beginning.
> 

That was my take on things as well, post-GoF.  And when I closed the 
book, I had not a single other soul I could discuss everything 
with... the only HP fans I knew were my students!  Needless to say, 
it was one of the only weekends I can remember in which I couldn't 
wait for Monday to come.  ;-)

> I wonder if my attachment has anything to do with listening to the
> audiobooks ( just starting the Stephen Fry GOF ). Will this colour 
the> way I read OotP ? I can't say. But I really don't know if I want 
to read> book 5 alone if it will make me cry. Yet I will marvel at 
the way that> JKR has written something to pull me in that emotional 
direction.
> 

Jim Dale's audiobooks definitely changed the way I viewed a few of 
the characters.  I loathe and detest the way he does Hermione (she 
sounds SO whiny!), but he has the Draco-drawl down IMO... I never 
laughed over a single Malfoy statement until I got PoA on audiotape.  
After listening to his renditions of PoA and GoF, I was definitely 
more interested in Draco as a character.  

Vocal intepretation is yet another method of coloring reader response 
to a text, IMO.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Thu Apr 12 00:07:02 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:07:02 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
In-Reply-To: <9b2cai+amq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2rj6+aia3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16450

In response to Heidi's response to my email:

Well - I was sort of trying to make a point that Ron's statements on 
giants and werewolves were no different than someone making a broad 
statement about any group of people.  We can get into the finer 
points by pulling up definitions of words and picking things apart, 
but since I only put about 5 minutes of thought into my original 
response, and originally meant the first part to appear in a joking 
tone of voice, so I don't see any reason to spend an hour tearing it 
apart with definitions.  

I know that this is going off-topic, and I've already explained once 
(check the archives, I've no idea what message number it is - it was 
a few months ago), but I want to make it perfectly clear to anyone 
who might visit sugarquill.com that Arabella and I started it a) for 
fun and b)for convenience, and c) to start a service for writers.  
The "Purpose of Existence" was a bit of fun that we composed one 
evening and yes, we are up front about what we think in terms of the 
Harry Potter books.  

> Zsenya, you yourself are listed as a "headmistress" on the 
Sugarquill 
> site, so it would be a bit disingenuous to now state that things 
> which are specifically listed as "purpose[s]" on the Sugarquill 
Site 
> are, if mentioned by someone who is not part of your "staff", 
> prejudiced comments. 

I'm not saying that at all.  I was, in my original email, simply 
pointing out that for some reason, SugarQuill seems particularly, and 
rather passive-aggressively targeted and joked about here.  I'd like 
to keep it friendly.  
 
[snip]

> And why is being a "Sugarquill type" a bad thing. You sound oh so 
> defensive in your post, as if Penny's use of that phrase was a 
> negative thing. 

I don't mind telling you that I'm a bit upset and angry about the 
entire tone of your reply, although I'm actually quite flattered that 
there is now terminology referring to a "SugarQuill Type" .  I'm also 
sorry that my original post prompted such a reply, and once again, I 
apologize if my original post was considered to be out of line. A big 
deal is being made about something that I consider very minor.  I 
know that I DO sound defensive now, because in my eyes, I have just 
been attacked.    The SQ affirmations are all in good fun and that 
they are in no way meant to discourage discussion.  For example, I 
have very strong feelings against Draco Malfoy and don't find any 
redeeming qualities in the character as he exists in the canon, but 
that doesn't stop us from posting stories where Draco turns out to be 
cool, nor does it stop Draco fans from posting on our site.  

> And not eveyone is so paranoid as to see prejudices where none 
exist.

Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is 
that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the 
arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist 
or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about 
giants, werewolves and house-elves.  I was trying to make the point 
that I think Ron's initial reactions are perfectly normal.  If you 
see a guy with a sleeping bag wrapped around himself in front of the 
homeless shelter, you assume he is homeless - but you don't assume 
he's a terrible person.  If you hear that someone is a werewolf, you 
might get scared because it's a known fact that in wolf form they 
turn into terrible creatures that can physically harm and destroy a 
person.  If, a bit later, you realize that the wolf is only dangerous 
in wolf form, and that the human part of him is trustworthy and 
accept that, then, in my eyes, you are not prejudiced, racist, or 
mean-spirited.  If Ron had called someone a "Mudblood" then I might 
feel differently.


Zsenya, who is going to shut up now and retreat back to her Island 
for some Tequila, chased down with Blue Moon beer...




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 00:16:35 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:16:35 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)
In-Reply-To: <3AD4DC71.9B633820@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2s53+po63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16451

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
"Actually, I know what you're referring to.  Ebony started a thread a 
few months ago, making the argument that JKR has created enough 
ambiguity in the text regarding the romances that it will be 
disappointing to some fans if it is handled in a matter-of-fact way.  
Sure, the H/H fans will be disappointed if JKR pairs Hermione off 
with Ron.  But, we won't necessarily think that it means the end of 
H/H (anymore I daresay than the R/H fans will abandon hope if it 
turns out the reverse ... there will still be 2 books left).  What we 
would be very disappointed with is if it is handled as though there's 
never been a hint of ambiguity in Hermione's feelings.  What Ebony 
was saying is that by creating ambiguity, it will be disingenous in a 
literary sense (and highly disappointing from that perspective) if 
she never addresses the ambiguity that she created.  I realize some 
will say, "Well how can she address it if she doesn't know it's 
there?"  True enough.  I guess many of us have faith that it is there 
for a reason and that it isn't really so hidden as to be unknown to 
the author.  <g>"

Well said, Penny!

Original sentiment was this:  I can accept the idea of R/H in future 
books.  What would be weird is if in the first few chapters of Book 
5, He--->R just pops up as if it was there all along.

First of all, I rather think we haven't seen the last of Krum... and 
I do think it's plausible to suggest he'll have a role in the rest of 
the narrative.  Second of all, R/H needs to build IMO.  If Book 5 
contains He--->R buildup as only JKR can do it, I just may have to 
change sides.  (j/k)

Before I forget, there's a point I wanted to make in my response to 
Rosmerta:  I was disappointed with the R-->H in GoF.  Until Penny and 
my students showed me cause for hope, I really thought I had to 
become an R/H fan by default.  (I would have been on Uboat NoShip 
instead, I think.)  

But GoF is still the book that transformed me from an enthusiatic HP 
fan to a rabid one.

So shippers aren't as fickle as some seem to think.  Here's a huge 
secret:  we actually care about all the non-romantic issues the books 
bring up as well!  Wow!

The first thing I want to know upon opening Book 5 is what happened 
with the old crowd over the summer... and how the mission to the 
giants fared.  And whether Rita's still in that jar.  ;-)
 
--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From amy at pressroom.com  Thu Apr 12 00:16:17 2001
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:16:17 -0400
Subject: fanfic, movie
References: <9b2fo0+kdif@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012e01c0c2e5$cbbc79c0$0200a8c0@pressroom.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16452

This fanfic/canon debate is interesting. I haven't read much fanfic and so far it hasn't colored my view of the books and I don't think it will. However, I have seen the Anne of Green Gables movies and read the books many times and sometimes forget if a certain event happened in the movies or books. I hope this doesn't happen to me when the HP movie comes out. 

Amy G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 00:26:15 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:26:15 -0000
Subject: Dark Hermione (Re: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather)
In-Reply-To: <3AD4E07E.866229E5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b2sn7+oghn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16453

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
"Yes, Hermione's desire for academic success is her buggaboo.  It is 
a well-known vulnerability/weakness and could be used against her by 
the dark side.  But, I agree completely with Kristin who argued that 
Hermione thinks things through more clearly & logically than Ron 
does.  Note: I'm not saying that Hermione is more intelligent than
Ron and therefore less likely to be a victim of the Dark Side.  I'm
saying she's a logical cool-headed thinker for the most part; and Ron
is, for the most part, not.  She's *less* likely to fall prey to the
Dark Side for that reason (not because her insecurities are any less
known or less problematic than Ron's are).  As Kristin said, Ron has a
vulnerability in his desire for money & his ambitions .... but what
makes him most vulnerable to being an unwilling pawn is his
vulnerabilities *coupled with* his impulsiveness, temper and tendency 
to make off-the-cuff emotional decisions.  IMO of course."

Again, all this talk about Dark Hermione possibilities is quite 
intriguing.

What would be the motivation for Hermione not to go bad?  Here's a 
few off the top of my head:
1)  She's Muggle-born.  There just aren't too many Jewish Nazis or 
black KKK members.  Sorry.
2)  She still retains some awe for authority figures.
3)  She's been the conscience of the Three for the past 3 1/2 books.

Feel free to add more.

All right, why *would* Hermione go bad?  I'm not talking about going 
undercover... I'm talking genuinely becoming an evil character.  One 
must allow that if there is a possibility for Draco redemption, there 
is also a chance of Hermione vilification.

So what scenarios can *you* come up with in which she would do this?

:::crickets chirp:::

Didn't think so.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ  (who has said "Honestly!" at least ten times this 
evening while reading posts about Hermione's supposed OCD--for a 
great fiction read about *real* OCD, Orson Scott Card's *Xenocide* 
comes to mind)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 00:43:31 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:43:31 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <9b206j+103hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2tnj+98pj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16454

Clairey:" Why at the start of GoF didn't Harry write to double d when 
his scar first hurt? He wrote to Sirius instead, seeing him as a 
father figure. I think its highly unlikely, but im not going to rule 
out the possibility that Sirius or Lupin could die. I dont see this 
happening mainly because Harry has allready lost one father. If double 
d was to die, i think it would be more to show that Mr V is stronger 
than he was at the height of his powers before lil harry got in his 
way."

Good question. Why didn't Harry write to Dumbledore? Or both Sirius 
and Dumbledore? 

Sirius's death or Lupin's isn't unlikely; maybe both. But I'd be 
surprised if Dumbledore, Sirius, and Lupin all died.

If V kills Dumbledore, it probably means Voldemort is stronger.  But 
at the same time it can mean Harry is taking Dumbledore's place.





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 00:49:01 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:49:01 -0000
Subject: Ron: prejudices, meanness
In-Reply-To: <9b2rj6+aia3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b2u1t+7tc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16455

I *know* I should stay out of this, but...

Heidi wrote:  
"Zsenya, you yourself are listed as a "headmistress" on the 
Sugarquill site, so it would be a bit disingenuous to now state that 
things which are specifically listed as "purpose[s]" on the 
Sugarquill Site are, if mentioned by someone who is not part of 
your "staff", prejudiced comments."

Zsenya wrote:
"I'm not saying that at all.  I was, in my original email, simply  
pointing out that for some reason, SugarQuill seems particularly, and 
 rather passive-aggressively targeted and joked about here.  I'd like 
to keep it friendly."

I can't speak for her, but I don't think Heidi was trying to attack 
you or your website, Zsenya.

What I do think she was pointing out is that you and others have 
repeatedly referred to the SugarQuill site.  Why take offense to 
Penny's use of the term "SugarQuill" when referring to the 
webmistresses when this is how you have described yourself?

That'd be like me taking issue (either joking, seriously, or 
sarcastically--shades of emotion are often lost in online discourse) 
with someone calling me a teacher, a vocal H/Her, an English grad 
student, or even black/African-American.  I've used this terminology 
to describe myself... and if someone uses it in a way that might 
cause me to raise my eyebrows, I let it go.

But again, that's just my third-party take on things.

Zsenya wrote: 
"Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is  
that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the 
arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist 
or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about 
giants, werewolves and house-elves."

Encarta's World English Dictionary has this to say:
1)  racism--prejudice or animosity against people who belong to 
another race
2)  prejudice--a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based 
on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate 
stereotypes.

Let's use this scenario:  say, for instance, 90% of the coverage that 
the wizarding news media provides about giants, werewolves, and house-
elves is negative.

You meet a giant, a werewolf, or a house-elf who's not like the ones 
that the news media has told you about.  You befriend them.

Do you 1) revise your notions of ALL giants, werewolves, or house-
elves?  2) decide to take each individual giant, werewolf, or house-
elf as they come? or 3)  decide that the giant, werewolf, or house-
elf that you have met and befriended, who's "not like *them*" is the 
exception rather than the rule?

As someone who is from that giant/werewolf/house-elf category in the 
Muggle version of the world, I've lived with people who select #3 
when dealing with me my entire life, and I absolutely, positively 
hate it.  As a matter of fact, it is one of the qualities that I 
dislike most when I detect it in a person.

So yes, one IS accountable for accepting the societal norm if that 
societal norm is morally questionable.

And Ron's having grown up in the wizarding world is no excuse... just 
as Draco's having grown up in the Malfoy family doesn't justify his 
nastiness either.

Explanation is one thing--justification is quite another.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 12 00:51:26 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:51:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness
References: <9b2rj6+aia3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD4FC0E.F507FBB2@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16456



> > And not eveyone is so paranoid as to see prejudices where none
> exist.
>
> Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is
> that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the
> arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist
> or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about
> giants, werewolves and house-elves.

There's a difference between holding prejudices and being racist. But they're both surmountable by someone who wants to overcome them, aren't they?

> I was trying to make the point
> that I think Ron's initial reactions are perfectly normal.  If you
> see a guy with a sleeping bag wrapped around himself in front of the
> homeless shelter, you assume he is homeless - but you don't assume
> he's a terrible person.  If you hear that someone is a werewolf, you
> might get scared because it's a known fact that in wolf form they
> turn into terrible creatures that can physically harm and destroy a
> person.  If, a bit later, you realize that the wolf is only dangerous
> in wolf form, and that the human part of him is trustworthy and
> accept that, then, in my eyes, you are not prejudiced, racist, or
> mean-spirited.  If Ron had called someone a "Mudblood" then I might
> feel differently.

Oh, why? Why do you feel that holding beliefs that cause you to use that word are so much more insurmountable and irreversable than holding beliefs that werewolves or giants are dangerous or all house elves like their lives?






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 01:24:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:24:03 -0000
Subject: Harry vs. Imperius
Message-ID: <9b303j+nd60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16457

Ebony wrote:

>Although it's not Potter Week yet, I'd like to note that the first 
>time Harry made me scratch my head in GoF was when he fought off that 
>curse.

What do you mean?  This is intriguing.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
 farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
              -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 01:27:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:27:42 -0000
Subject: US/UK - Draco - Snape - Kneazles
Message-ID: <9b30ae+csqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16458

Doreen wrote:

>When it was *thought* that 'the American Editors' were the ones at 
>fault, it was ok to call them idiots and to make disparaging remarks 
>about them. Now, that it is clear that it was not the American 
>editors, but rather, JKR, herself, I wonder if she will be called an 
>idiot and be criticized as harshly? 

I didn't originate the subject line about idiot editors, but I, ah, 
did call Arthur Levine a disingenuous jerk.  My apologies to Mr.
Levine and my thanks to Doreen--you are right; I shouldn't call anyone 
a jerk.

When I feel the need to criticize editors and/or JKR, I will strive to 
do so with gentleness and without name-calling.

Melinda wrote:

>Would US children have enjoyed the books as 
>much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar 
>words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.  

We all speak from our own experience, so all I can say is that this 
process gave me great pleasure as a child.  I clearly recall sorting 
out how Edmund could have a "torch" in his pocket in Prince Caspian 
(what we in the US would call a flashlight).  Perhaps there are others 
onlist, and I'm sure there are children out there, who would have 
found these disparities confusing and off-putting; I found them 
fascinating.  And still do, as you may have noticed . . . 

Heidi wrote:

>"does Draco have any idea of how 
>bad an insult the term "Mudblood" is?" In other words, in his realm 
>of understanding, is it somewhere on the continuum closer 
>to "jerk", "b*tch", or the word that begins with an N and rhymes with 
>trigger? What level of insult did he think he was throwing at her? 

It's not just the Hermione comment.  It's also "Enemies of the Heir, 
beware!  You'll be next, Mudbloods!"  He isn't just calling names; he 
is threatening people with death.

"But I know one thing:  last time the Chamber was opened, a Mudblood 
=died.=  So I bet it's a matter of time before one of them's killed 
this time...I hope it's Granger," he said with relish.  (CoS 12)  (See 
also the Potions class in CoS 15.)

I think you can argue either that Draco's a hothouse flower or that 
he's fully aware of Lucius's world and is a secret dissenter from it 
(hence the above statement to "Crabbe" and "Goyle" is an act), but I 
can't see how one can argue both.  The two theories are on a collision 
course.  How can you square the remark to "C&G" with his being 
ignorant of the racism behind his words?  

>4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts 
>Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying to 
>curse each other.

This is not the best example for convincing people to trust Snape's 
judgment of Draco.  Draco is lying in this incident, and Snape's 
handling of it is completely unfair.  He sends Goyle to the hospital 
wing and insults Hermione; Harry and Ron get detention but Draco 
doesn't.

All in all, I think (and hope) Draco may be redeemed, but it's a long 
uphill road to that point, IMO.

Amanda wrote:

>I think
>that Snape might indeed be interested [in the DADA position], but 
Dumbledore has asked him not
>to apply. The reason most people have given for this scenario is that
>Snape would be tempted back to the Dark Side, but I had suggested 
also
>that keeping Snape from the DADA position might be for his own 
protection.

Another common theory:  Snape may be one of the best Potions 
brewers/professors in the world (Lupin implies as much, PoA ch. 8) and 
he is as hard to replace in that capacity as the DADA position is hard 
to fill.

Heidi wrote: 

>2. Kneazles have lion-like tails - FB p. 24. 
>3. Crookshanks has a bottle brush tail - - PoA (don't have a page 
>ref).

As veep of the League of Obsessed Nitpickers, I must agree with your 
point (there's plenty of textual evidence hinting that Crookshanks 
might be part Kneazle) but point out that the above is not evidence 
but counterevidence.  A lion's tail and a bottle-brush are very 
different shapes.  A bottle-brush is the shape of the tail of an angry 
cat.  A lion's tail is long with very short hair until the end, which 
looks like an artist's brush.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
   "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically.  "Goblins 
 don't need protection.  Haven't you been listening to 
 what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin 
 rebellions?"
   "No," said Harry and Ron together.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 01:33:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:33:13 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Percy, Fred)
Message-ID: <9b30kp+4gne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16459

=Warning: listies who accompanied Fred to the Yule Ball may want to 
skip this post <eg>=

Demelza wrote:

> A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a 
negative
> connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the clutches 
of
> a madman.

Penny replied:

>I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that shows
>strong emotional connection.

Percy is the victim of a very slanted POV:  Ron dislikes him, and we 
get a lot of our information about Percy via Ron.  If you go through 
and look at the negative portrayals of Percy, they are often filtered 
through a comment of Ron's as well as through Harry's POV.  I wonder 
what we would think of Percy if we saw him through, say, Bill's eyes.

I interpreted "clutches" in the above example as Ron's (and maybe 
Harry's) POV as a 14-year-old boy who, like most 14-y-o boys, hates 
public displays of affection and concern by his family.  He is 
probably embarrassed by Percy's outburst of concern.  Hence the 
humorous use of "clutches," as if being hugged by your brother were 
equivalent to a Lethifold attack.

I seem to be a candidate for Percy Fans Unite! membership; I hope the 
test isn't as rigorous as the one for L.O.O.N. (by the way, Joywitch, 
I was ROFL!).  For example, I hope I can still think Percy's 
outrageously pompous, and that he is not even in 3rd place for Most 
Impressive Weasley Man.  I just like him a lot more than most people 
seem to.

Penny wrote:

>I think the question about Hermione's naivete depends on how 
seriously
>the Ministry would view the offense of being an unregistered 
animagus.
>If it carries really horrible penalties (a stint in Azkaban for
>example), then Hermione pretty much has Rita handled. 

Except that Rita now knows that Sirius is an unregistered animagus 
too, and that Dumbledore knew it (we don't know when she entered the 
room, but it's certainly likely that she was there for that 
revelation).  So she has as much on them as Hermione has on her--could 
lead to a stalemate.

>With all that's going to be going on, an unregistered animagus may 
not register much on the
>priority scale at the MoM though, regardless of how seriously it 
might
>have been viewed in times of peace.

Yeah, I think so too.  Especially for Sirius, who can make the MOM 
look very bad if he gets the chance to prove that he was locked up for 
12 years without cause.  (Yes, I know the evidence was pretty 
convincing on the face of it, but cases like Sirius's show why 
civilized societies have a trial before they convict people.)

Aha!:  On chat the other day, I was trying to remember the 3rd thing 
I'd noticed was a Fred, not George, nasty trick on Ron.  Susan has now 
supplied it and added a fourth.  Thank you, Susan.

My point was that we lump Fred and George together (at least I do), 
but all the instances I can think of of childhood traumas inflicted on 
Ron by "the twins" were in fact Fred's doing.  Sorry, Ebony!

1) (least serious IMO) telling him you have to wrestle a troll to get 
Sorted (PS/SS)
2) changing his teddy bear into a giant spider (CoS)
3) giving him an acid pop that burned a hole in his tongue (PoA)
4) (most serious IMO) Beating his puffskein, apparently to death ("I 
used to have one of these" "What happened?"  "Fred used it for Bludger 
practice":  clear implication is that the past tense is due to the 
Bludger practice) (FB)

So, my question is:  what's with Fred?  Are other people growing as 
disturbed by the overall picture of him as I am?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 His immediate reaction was that it would 
 be worth becoming a prefect just to be able 
 to use this bathroom.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 01:35:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:35:59 -0000
Subject: Hermione compulsive?
Message-ID: <9b30pv+5ukc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16460

Milz wrote:

>I've got to admit, studying material that you know by heart over and 
over and over again, 
>seems a little extreme.

Why do people keep saying this?  Hermione is very smart and could 
probably pull good grades without studying much, but that doesn't mean 
she doesn't have to study.  

Am I forgetting a reference?

Amy Z
giving thanks that Milz's psychiatrist colleague can't get =me= on the 
couch...





From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 01:48:28 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:48:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] tiny Lexicon-....thing
References: <9b2ngm+efdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5096C.95D16BE3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16461

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> This might be way too picky.

No such thing, with Steve.  <g>

> At the Detentionpage, there is stated: "Filch
> remembers fondly when he was allowed to suspend guilty students by
> their wrists from the ceiling..." Is there ever actually said that he
> was around to punish student himself in this sort of way? Judging from
> the text, he might as well just have heard about it, and keeps the
> chains to ever have a chance of his own with them.

All I can remember is that someone says that Filch keeps asking
Dumbledore to *let* him do this. And damned if I can remember where.
I'll put the three free brain cells on autopilot and see if they can
percolate up the locale. But I think you're right, he never actually
*did* it.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 12 01:45:06 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:45:06 -0400
Subject: US/UK and Sympathy for the Devil (and ne'er the twain shall meet)
References: <9b30ae+csqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD508A1.24A6D843@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16462



Amy Z wrote:

> Melinda wrote:
>
> >Would US children have enjoyed the books as
> >much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar
> >words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.
>
> We all speak from our own experience, so all I can say is that this
> process gave me great pleasure as a child.  I clearly recall sorting
> out how Edmund could have a "torch" in his pocket in Prince Caspian
> (what we in the US would call a flashlight).  Perhaps there are others
> onlist, and I'm sure there are children out there, who would have
> found these disparities confusing and off-putting; I found them
> fascinating.  And still do, as you may have noticed . . .

Oh, me too! When I first went to the UK, at 13 on a trip with my parents, I got my set of Enid Blyton Mallory Touwers books - I was already a fan of mid-20th century popular british kiddie-lit, specifically Noel Straetfield (am I the only one
who cried in You've Got Mail along with Meg Ryan, because Skating Shoes is out of print?) and that is what made me an anglophile through high school and college (and obviously, I still retain the vestigaes of it now - without that, I
wouldn't've picked up HP in 1998 like I did)

> I think you can argue either that Draco's a hothouse flower or that
> he's fully aware of Lucius's world and is a secret dissenter from it
> (hence the above statement to "Crabbe" and "Goyle" is an act), but I
> can't see how one can argue both.  The two theories are on a collision
> course.  How can you square the remark to "C&G" with his being
> ignorant of the racism behind his words?

Because, as I said yesterday, the degree of the insult that *he* thinks it is, is what we the readers don't know.

> >4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts
> >Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were trying to
> >curse each other.
>
> This is not the best example for convincing people to trust Snape's
> judgment of Draco.  Draco is lying in this incident, and Snape's
> handling of it is completely unfair.  He sends Goyle to the hospital
> wing and insults Hermione; Harry and Ron get detention but Draco
> doesn't.

Yes, Snape's handling is unfair, but Draco isn't lying.
Canon says:
Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to burst through a dam in his chest.  He had reached for his wand before hed thought what he was doing.
<SNIP>
For a split second, they looked into each others eyes, then, at exactly the same time, both acted.
Funnunculus!  Harry yelled.
  Densaugeo!  screamed Malfoy.
<SNIP>
 And what is all this noise about? said a soft, deadly voice.
  Snape had arrived.  The Slytherins clamored to give their explanations; Snape pointed a long yellow finger at Malfoy and said, Explain.
  Potter attacked me, sir -
  We attacked each other at the same time!  Harry shouted.
  - and he hit Goyle - look -

Harry did start the physical portion of the attack, by reaching for his wand first  - I'm not saying Harry was wrong in going after Draco at that moment, but Draco is not lying when he says that Harry attacked. And I think everyone, no matter
their point of view, would agree that yes, Harry's spell hit Goyle, in the same way that Draco's hit Hermione's.

> All in all, I think (and hope) Draco may be redeemed, but it's a long
> uphill road to that point, IMO.

Oh, absolutely uphill. Maybe even up a little mountain. But not up Everest.

> Heidi wrote:
>
> >2. Kneazles have lion-like tails - FB p. 24.
> >3. Crookshanks has a bottle brush tail - - PoA (don't have a page
> >ref).
>
> As veep of the League of Obsessed Nitpickers, I must agree with your
> point (there's plenty of textual evidence hinting that Crookshanks
> might be part Kneazle) but point out that the above is not evidence
> but counterevidence.  A lion's tail and a bottle-brush are very
> different shapes.  A bottle-brush is the shape of the tail of an angry
> cat.  A lion's tail is long with very short hair until the end, which
> looks like an artist's brush.

A bottle brush isn't something that has a fatter end than the "stem" portion of it? Erk, that's what I always thought a bottle-brush was! I do wish JKR had put a pic of the Kneazle tail in the book, now. Oh well!





From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 01:55:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:55:00 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore's House
Message-ID: <3AD50AF4.A9B6A60E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16463

[apologies if this got covered when I wasn't looking] Oh, Steve, and
whoever had mentioned this as a given....I was reading through my new
Philosopher's Stone, telling myself for the sixth time that I should
make a list of the usages and words that "stuck out" to a native Texan,
and I saw the reference to Dumbledore being in Gryffindor. I *think*
it's page 79, but it's the Canadian version of the British text, so it's
in the part where Hermione has come into the compartment with Ron &
Harry on the way to Hogwarts, and they're talking about Houses, and she
in talking about Gryffindor says, "I hear Dumbledore himself was in
Gryffindor," or something to that effect. So it's strongly implied,
given the reliability of Hermione as a detail-checker.

Sorry no page and not a better reference; I get to read at lunch and in
the tub and stuff, when I'm not at the computer, and I don't actually
know where my son hid the book at the moment (he likes the train on the
cover).

--Amanda




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 02:00:07 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:00:07 -0000
Subject: US/UK and Sympathy for the Devil (and ne'er the twain shall meet)
In-Reply-To: <3AD508A1.24A6D843@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <9b3277+1ssa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16464

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > Melinda wrote:
> >
> > >Would US children have enjoyed the books as
> > >much from the start if they had had to puzzle out many unfamiliar
> > >words even as they were struggling to read in the first place.
> >
> > We all speak from our own experience, so all I can say is that 
this
> > process gave me great pleasure as a child.  I clearly recall 
sorting
> > out how Edmund could have a "torch" in his pocket in Prince 
Caspian
> > (what we in the US would call a flashlight).  Perhaps there are 
others
> > onlist, and I'm sure there are children out there, who would have
> > found these disparities confusing and off-putting; I found them
> > fascinating.  And still do, as you may have noticed . . .
> 
> Oh, me too! When I first went to the UK, at 13 on a trip with my 
parents, I got my set of Enid Blyton Mallory Touwers books - I was 
already a fan of mid-20th century popular british kiddie-lit, 
specifically Noel Straetfield (am I the only one
> who cried in You've Got Mail along with Meg Ryan, because Skating 
Shoes is out of print?) and that is what made me an anglophile through 
high school and college (and obviously, I still retain the vestigaes 
of it now - without that, I
> wouldn't've picked up HP in 1998 like I did)
> 
> > I think you can argue either that Draco's a hothouse flower or 
that
> > he's fully aware of Lucius's world and is a secret dissenter from 
it
> > (hence the above statement to "Crabbe" and "Goyle" is an act), but 
I
> > can't see how one can argue both.  The two theories are on a 
collision
> > course.  How can you square the remark to "C&G" with his being
> > ignorant of the racism behind his words?
> 
> Because, as I said yesterday, the degree of the insult that *he* 
thinks it is, is what we the readers don't know.
> 
> > >4. Professor Snape seems to trust him. In book 4, Snape accepts
> > >Malfoy's statement about what happened when he & harry were 
trying to
> > >curse each other.
> >
> > This is not the best example for convincing people to trust 
Snape's
> > judgment of Draco.  Draco is lying in this incident, and Snape's
> > handling of it is completely unfair.  He sends Goyle to the 
hospital
> > wing and insults Hermione; Harry and Ron get detention but Draco
> > doesn't.
> 
> Yes, Snape's handling is unfair, but Draco isn't lying.
> Canon says:
> Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to 
burst through a dam in his chest.  He had reached for his wand before 
he'd thought what he was doing.
> <SNIP>
> For a split second, they looked into each other's eyes, then, at 
exactly the same time, both acted.
> "Funnunculus!"  Harry yelled.
>   "Densaugeo!"  screamed Malfoy.
> <SNIP>
>  "And what is all this noise about?" said a soft, deadly voice.
>   Snape had arrived.  The Slytherins clamored to give their 
explanations; Snape pointed a long yellow finger at Malfoy and said, 
"Explain."
>   "Potter attacked me, sir -"
>   "We attacked each other at the same time!"  Harry shouted.
>   "- and he hit Goyle - look -"
> 
> Harry did start the physical portion of the attack, by reaching for 
his wand first  - I'm not saying Harry was wrong in going after Draco 
at that moment, but Draco is not lying when he says that Harry 
attacked. And I think everyone, no matter
> their point of view, would agree that yes, Harry's spell hit Goyle, 
in the same way that Draco's hit Hermione's.
> 
> > All in all, I think (and hope) Draco may be redeemed, but it's a 
long
> > uphill road to that point, IMO.
> 
> Oh, absolutely uphill. Maybe even up a little mountain. But not up 
Everest.
> 
> > Heidi wrote:
> >
> > >2. Kneazles have lion-like tails - FB p. 24.
> > >3. Crookshanks has a bottle brush tail - - PoA (don't have a page
> > >ref).
> >
> > As veep of the League of Obsessed Nitpickers, I must agree with 
your
> > point (there's plenty of textual evidence hinting that Crookshanks
> > might be part Kneazle) but point out that the above is not 
evidence
> > but counterevidence.  A lion's tail and a bottle-brush are very
> > different shapes.  A bottle-brush is the shape of the tail of an 
angry
> > cat.  A lion's tail is long with very short hair until the end, 
which
> > looks like an artist's brush.
> 
> A bottle brush isn't something that has a fatter end than the "stem" 
portion of it? Erk, that's what I always thought a bottle-brush was! I 
do wish JKR had put a pic of the Kneazle tail in the book, now. Oh 
well!

I always thought that a bottle brush looked like a big fat pipecleaner 
with bristles, keeping the same diameter throughout.  On the assertion 
of textual evidence for Crookshanks as Kneazle, could anyone come up 
with a specific citation or two, please.  BTW, I am still looking for 
the text of ovencleaner as the 12th use of dragonsblood, and I will 
report back.  But could somebody cite the evidence for Crookshanks 
being a Kneazle, and how that would contradict the possibility of his 
being an animagus.  Thanks for putting up with my being so obtuse.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 02:03:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:03:46 -0000
Subject: Sundry responses on Ron
Message-ID: <9b32e2+ekfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16465

Cap'n Kathy wrote:

>Actually, when you think about it, it's really astounding how much 
Ron >ISN'T jealous of, considering that he has been painted as such a 
>jealous person. 

O captain, my captain!  I agree 100%.

Catherine wrote: <his mockery of Filch being a Squib>

I don't see it this way.  The passage reads:

"And what on earth's a Squib?" said Harry.
To his surprise, Ron stifled a snigger.
"Well--it's not funny really--but as it's Filch..." he said.  "A Squib 
is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any 
magic powers.  Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs 
are quite unusual.  If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell 
course, I reckon he must be a Squib.  It would explain a lot.  Like 
why he hates students so much."  Ron gave a satisfied smile.  "He's 
bitter."

What I get from this passage is that Ron hates Filch, but =not= 
because he's a Squib, and in fact Ron wouldn't make fun of someone for 
being one ("it's not funny really--but as it's Filch...").  For all he 
despises Filch, he never throws his Squibness up in his face nor 
refers to it again to the others.  Is there anything else anywhere 
revealing Ron's attitudes toward Squibs that I've forgotten?

Penny wrote:

>Harry dismisses Fudge's assumption on the grounds that it just has to 
do
>with geographic proximity.  Ron, OTOH, is quick to think of her giant
>blood in *support* of Fudge's conclusion. 

You're right.  He hasn't entirely shaken that prejudice.  Others had 
referred to this passage but I didn't remember the specifics.

Re: werewolf prejudices, it's Harry who wrote "aren't all bad" in FB 
(Mike, I have trouble sorting out the writing too--I think JKR did all 
three--but I'm sure this is Harry's).  But I'm sure Ron agrees <g>.  

I stand by my basic point that Ron's prejudices aren't remotely 
comparable to Draco's.  (And by my long-ago assertion that Harry is a 
primo jerk about SPEW--and he doesn't even have childhood prejudices 
to outgrow.  If Hermione is looking for a boyfriend who will respect 
her political views, she'd better look beyond Ron AND Harry unless one 
of them shapes up.)

Penny on Ron's "meanness":

>1.  His fight with Harry in GoF.  His remarks are rather cutting.

Yeah, his remarks are mean, but so are Harry's.  Ron:  "I'm not 
stupid, you know."  Harry:  "You're doing a really good impression of 
it."  Ouch!  This is a knock-down drag-out; both are saying things 
they'll regret.  None of this is to excuse Ron, but to say that if 
we're going to call him mean because of this comment, we have to call 
Harry mean as well.

>2.  (Paraphrasing as no PoA on desk): "It's too bad Scabbers was just
>*eaten,* he really used to love these [whatever the candy/sweet 
was]."
>[And, by the by, this was the same moment when Harry was in the 
process
>of making amends with Hermione!]

Harry's being a lot better than Ron, but he isn't the one whose pet 
got eaten while Hermione makes denials and excuses.  I don't consider 
Ron's comment mean, in any case.  It's immature (he =is= 13); a mature 
response would be to insist upon having a conversation with Hermione 
and really telling her how awful he's feeling.

Hermione, much as I love her, is also very immature when it comes to 
the Crookshanks/Scabbers incident.  She waved off Ron's concern by 
saying Crookshanks would be in her dorm and Scabbers in the boys'.  
Well, Crookshanks did get into the boys' dorm; she didn't keep her 
promise.  And it seems, in evidence that is clear to everyone else, 
that Crookshanks has indeed gotten in again and eaten him up, gulp.  
She refuses to admit that this is what most likely happened, and she 
refuses to apologize for a long time.  They both need to grow up.  
Neither of them is being mean, IMHO.

>Hermione fulfils the role of advisor/helper much better.  Ron seems 
to be 
>there to lighten Harry up when things get too heavy. 

This is definitely true, but we still see aspects of Ron that are more 
sensitive.  The only example that comes to mind from GoF is his 
telling Hermione to drop it when she is challenging Harry about lying 
to Sirius.  I know I've brought this up before, but I just find it a 
very telling moment.  Harry is in real agony about Sirius's having 
endangered himself on his account; Hermione's being a bit legalistic 
("that was a lie, Harry"); Ron sees the emotional picture much 
better, and in a way, in fact, that is supposedly characteristic of 
girls that age but not boys.  I think there are other moments like 
this in GoF, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

And then there's the 2nd task, by which JKR tells us in no uncertain 
terms that Ron is the most important person in Harry's life.  That 
could, of course, just mean that Harry needs lighthearted 
companionship more than he needs a helper/advisor.

I am sorry to say that Ron is less likable to me in GoF than in the 
other books, =as a person.=  =As a character,= he's more interesting 
than ever before.  He's growing in complexity and I can't wait to see 
how he'll develop next.  (Within two strict limits, of course:  (1) he 
may not become a DE and (2) he may not die.  Got that, Jo?)

Demelza wrote:

>About "normal cat behavior", Hermione owned a cat. Ron owned a rat. 
>"Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior 
dictates 
>that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things. 
>Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat 
to 
>be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the 
>cat is after the pet rat? 

This was written in response to my post saying Crookshanks was 
displaying normal cat behavior, but it takes my post out of context 
(it dates back quite awhile).  It wasn't about whether Hermione was 
responsible or considerate of Ron's pet (she wasn't either, IMO), but 
about her judgment of character:  does Hermione's blindness about 
Crookshanks show a lack of perceptiveness about suspicious characters 
(and specifically, does it show that she's less perceptive than Ron)? 
 I was saying that no, Hermione doesn't get what's going on with 
Crookshanks, but that's understandable because his behavior is normal 
cat behavior, not, as Ron says, an in for Scabbers.  He proves to be 
right and Hermione proves to be wrong; on the other hand, Ron doesn't 
get the whole picture, either; he thinks Crookshanks is doing 
something evil when in fact he's trying to protect them all.

Arabella wrote:

>As for chess, I know there are more references than this and I wish I 
>had time to check through for all of them: "He liked it best when he 
>was with Ron and Hermione and they were talking about other things, 
or 
>else letting him sit in silence while they played chess." - GoF 

CoS ch. 11: Ron and Hermione play (Ron's bishop takes Hermione's 
knight).
PoA ch. 11: Ron suggests chess as a distraction when Harry's obsessing 
about Black.

Aberforth's Goat wrote:

>*I* hereby wager 5 Butterbeers that Ron'll be the next Gryffindor 
quidditch
>captain.

You're on!  I'm betting he'll be Keeper but not captain (I'm holding 
out for one of the Chasers.  Hey, since chat on Sunday, I found a 
Chaser captain in canon:  Marcus Flint).

Lisa, all I can say is a big "me too!" to your "Ron's stubbornness" 
post.  (I have more sympathy for Harry's nastiness in the 
badge-chucking scene, though.  Yeah, he's being an utter jerk, but as 
we know and Ron doesn't, he's been stressed to the breaking point.  He 
has good reason to think Ron's interruption may cost him his life.)  
You really summed up a lot of my thoughts on Ron.  The Ron rhetoric 
has been getting kind of extreme on both sides ("Ron's emotionally 
abusive" on the one ridiculous extreme, "Ron's funny, brave, etc. and 
therefore can't be jealous" on the other) and your post was so 
balanced and reasonable.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
 by turning into a large canary.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Apr 12 02:13:40 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:13:40 -0000
Subject: Filch's chains (was Re: tiny Lexicon-....thing)
In-Reply-To: <3AD5096C.95D16BE3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b330k+4o4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16466

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
[snip]
> All I can remember is that someone says that Filch keeps asking
> Dumbledore to *let* him do this. And damned if I can remember where.
> I'll put the three free brain cells on autopilot and see if they can
> percolate up the locale. But I think you're right, he never actually
> *did* it.
> 
> --Amanda

PS, Chapter Fifteen "The Forbidden Forest", fifth page of the chapter 
(would this be a reasonable, easily understood standard for quoting 
things from the books?):

"'Follow me,' said Filch, lighting a lamp and leading them 
outside.  'I bet you'll think twice about breaking a school-rule 
again, won't you, eh?' he continued, leering at them.  'Oh yes ... 
hard work and pain are the best teachers if you ask me ... it's just 
a pity they let the old punishments die out ... hang you by your 
wrists from the ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains still in 
my office, keep 'em well oiled in case they're ever needed ... Right, 
off we go, and don't think of running off, now, it'll be worse for 
you if you do.'"

In my eyes, the above does not completely exclude the possibility 
that Filch has used the implements on students (with approval from 
the then residing headmaster) - he does sound as if he has seen them 
in use, at the very least.

Best regards
Christian Stub?

P.S.   I once read a fic pairing Snape and Filch together - the 
premise was a shared fascination for the use of above-mentioned 
chains, and other implements.  It *was* a somewhat tongue-in-cheek 
fic, but very well written.




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 12 02:12:20 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:12:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] tiny Lexicon-....thing
References: <9b2ngm+efdg@eGroups.com> <3AD5096C.95D16BE3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AD50F04.317C7A7F@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16467



Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> All I can remember is that someone says that Filch keeps asking
> Dumbledore to *let* him do this. And damned if I can remember where.
> I'll put the three free brain cells on autopilot and see if they can
> percolate up the locale. But I think you're right, he never actually
> *did* it.
>

    Here's what Filch actually says:

    "Follow me," said Filch, lighting a lamp and leading them outside.
"I'll bet you'll think twice about
    breaking a school rule again, won't you, eh," he said, leering at
them.  "Oh yes, hard work and pain
    are the best teachers, if you ask me.  It's just a pity they let the
old ways die out.  Hang you by your wrists
    from the ceiling for a few days.  I've got the chains still in my
office.  Keep 'em well oiled in case they're ever needed."
    (HP/PS, transcribed from audio)

So no, he--Filch---never actually did it, but he says it has been done
in the past.  Was it in Armando Dippett's time or before?
Guess this makes me a nitpicker.  And I do agree with Haggridd, the
crunchy ones *are* best! ;)

drpam
who never reads fanfic and agrees wholeheartly with Steve and Amanda
about how they influence perceptions




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 02:14:57 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:14:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON
References: <9b2qj6+bbh0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD50FA0.78656CC1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16468

Ebony AKA AngieJ wrote:

> It's quite easy to separate Lori's Hermione, Penny and Carole's
> Sirius, Cassie's Draco, Heidi's Lucius Malfoy, and Al's Harry from the
> JKR Authorized Version.  Anyone beyond the intelligence level of a
> cockroach can do it, and do it easily.

Couldn't you have picked a more attractive basal measure? A squid? A bed
of kelp?

For my part, when I read I internalize things. My perception of
literature involves many more levels than the intellect. Like when I
drive. I am capable, regardless of what my husband may tell you, of
using a map, and I do when I am navagating unfamiliar territory. I can
also tell the cardinal directions. But in general, when I'm going
somewhere in an area I know, I drive by "feel." I'll know I'm in the
right neighborhood because it feels right, and I seldom get lost.
However, my mental image of my known territory is not linear. It's not
even an image. It's gestalt. [Which explains why I have such trouble
giving directions to places I can take you in a heartbeat.]

So when I read, I seldom if ever build up an actual mental "picture" of
a character (or locations, for that matter. I'm just not good at
visualizing, I find it very difficult). Just like I seldom have an idea
of what a radio personality "should" look like. But I know what they
"feel" like. It's gestalt, and it involves more little threads and
details and observations than I can possibly track. The casting of the
movie pleased me because those actors whom I have seen, "feel" right in
their roles, and even better, they look it!

So, on to fanfic. Intellectually, yes, it probably would be easy to keep
everyone's versions separate. But I know the way my psyche works, and I
will invariably on another level weave someone else's version of the
characters into my take on the canon characters. I won't be able to help
the bleedover. That's how my mind works, that's why I can make good
intiutive jumps and analogies, because I connect things. I seem to have
a natural talent for linking disparate things. So I will not be able to
avoid linking, in some way, very similar ones.

I will have no problem reading HP fanfic *after* JKR finishes her
series. I just want to limit myself to her characterizations, until
she's done playing with them. After she's through developing them all
she intends to, then I won't have a problem with adding other flavors. I
just want to keep it all JKR as I experience the books themselves.

As for the reasonable observation that the discussions alter my view of
the characters, well, yes they do. They alter my viewpoint of JKR's
words. But they do not *add* anything. As someone said, showing is
stronger than telling, it sticks with you more and gets the point across
better. Fanfic is showing and these discussions are telling.

Hope I made sense.

--Amanda, wondering if it was too many Texas summers, marrying the
Polack, or the three children, that lamentably reduced her to the
intelligence level of a cockroach


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 02:17:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:17:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other  interpretations)
References: <9b2rae+c8qp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5103E.EB074A50@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16469

Ebony AKA AngieJ wrote:

> Vocal intepretation is yet another method of coloring reader response
> to a text, IMO.

Yep. I haven't heard the audiobooks yet, either. Mostly, I admit,
because I hate Jim Dale, can't afford Stephen Fry, and don't have a
working cassette player in the car anyway, but I do consider them an
interpretation.

However, they're an interpretation of the existing words of JKR, not
brand-new works *based* on her characters. A version, not a new
creation. Like the movie will be a version.

--Amanda the cockroach


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 02:20:04 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:20:04 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Percy, Fred)
In-Reply-To: <9b30kp+4gne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b33ck+9rah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16471

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> =Warning: listies who accompanied Fred to the Yule Ball may want to 
> skip this post <eg>=

A list member actually went to the Yule Ball?  Wow... lucky girl.  ;-)

> > Percy is the victim of a very slanted POV:  Ron dislikes him, and 
we get a lot of our information about Percy via Ron.  If you go 
through and look at the negative portrayals of Percy, they are often 
filtered through a comment of Ron's as well as through Harry's POV.  
I wonder what we would think of Percy if we saw him through, say, 
Bill's eyes.
> 

Very well said!

> Aha!:  On chat the other day, I was trying to remember the 3rd 
thing I'd noticed was a Fred, not George, nasty trick on Ron.  Susan 
has now supplied it and added a fourth.  Thank you, Susan.
> 
> My point was that we lump Fred and George together (at least I do), 
> but all the instances I can think of of childhood traumas inflicted 
on Ron by "the twins" were in fact Fred's doing.  Sorry, Ebony!
> 

Don't be sorry.  I do think Fred's the leader of the two... and I'm 
not half as defensive about Fred as I am critical of Ron.  I also am 
quick to defend Percy most of the time, but Penny's done a great job 
of it over the past couple of days.

Fred can defend himself, I'm sure.   

> 1) (least serious IMO) telling him you have to wrestle a troll to 
get Sorted (PS/SS)
> 2) changing his teddy bear into a giant spider (CoS)
> 3) giving him an acid pop that burned a hole in his tongue (PoA)
> 4) (most serious IMO) Beating his puffskein, apparently to death 
("I used to have one of these" "What happened?"  "Fred used it for 
Bludger practice":  clear implication is that the past tense is due 
to the Bludger practice) (FB)
> 
> So, my question is:  what's with Fred?  Are other people growing as 
> disturbed by the overall picture of him as I am?
> 

Nope.  But then again, I'm not hugely protective of either Ron or 
animals.  We established this fact in chat.  ;-)

I actually don't think that any of the above makes Fred evil.  I have 
little sisters who I did mean things to as a child.  Sometimes 
because they annoyed me.  Sometimes just for the heck of it... even 
the Percys of the family have their bad days, when their sibling's 
very presence grates on the nerves.  

We don't hear if Ron ever did anything to the twins or Percy to 
provoke these reactions.  There are two sides to every story.  If 
Ron's like most younger sibs, then... never mind.

I close with a long quote from PoA.  Please, note Fred vs. George 
below.

*******************************
"Harry!" said Fred, who looked extremely white underneath, the mud.
"How're you feeling?"

It was as though Harry's memory was on fast forward. The lightning --
the Grim -- the Snitch -- and the dementors...

"What happened?" he said, sitting up so suddenly they all gasped.

"You fell off," said Fred. "Must've been -- what -- fifty feet?"

"We thought you'd died," said Alicia, who was shaking.

Hermione made a small, squeaky noise. Her eyes were extremely 
bloodshot.

"But the match," said Harry. "What happened? Are we doing a replay?"

No one said anything. The horrible truth sank into Harry like a stone.

"We didn't -- lose?"

"Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "Just after you fell. He didn't
realize what had happened. When he looked back and saw you on the
ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a rematch. But they won fair 
and square... even Wood admits it."

"Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he wasn't there.

"Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's trying to drown
himself."

Harry put his face to his knees, his hands gripping his hair. Fred
grabbed his shoulder and shook it roughly.  "C'mon, Harry, you've 
never missed the Snitch before."

"There had to be one time you didn't get it," said George.

"It's not over yet," said Fred. "We lost by a hundred points"

"Right? So if Hufflepuff loses to Ravenclaw and we beat Ravenclaw and
Slytherin --."

"Hufflepuff'll have to lose by at least two hundred points," said
George.

"But if they beat Ravenclaw..."

"No Way, Ravenclaw is too good. But if Slytherin loses against
Hufflepuff..."

"It all depends on the points -- a margin of a hundred either way."

Harry lay there, not saying a word. They had lost... for the first 
time ever, he had lost a Quidditch match.

After ten minutes or so, Madam Pomfrey came over to tell the team to
leave him in peace.

"We'll come and see you later," Fred told him. "Don't beat yourself 
up, Harry, you're still the best Seeker we've ever had."

The team trooped out, trailing mud behind them.

**************************

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Apr 12 02:27:35 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:27:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Laughs at a Squib's expense?
In-Reply-To: <9b32e2+ekfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104112207290.160-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16472

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, Amy Z wrote:

<snippity snip snip> 
> I don't see it this way.  The passage reads:
> 
> "And what on earth's a Squib?" said Harry.
> To his surprise, Ron stifled a snigger.
> "Well--it's not funny really--but as it's Filch..." he said.  "A Squib 
> is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any 
> magic powers.  Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs 
> are quite unusual.  If Filch's trying to learn magic from a Kwikspell 
> course, I reckon he must be a Squib.  It would explain a lot.  Like 
> why he hates students so much."  Ron gave a satisfied smile.  "He's 
> bitter."
> 
> What I get from this passage is that Ron hates Filch, but =not= 
> because he's a Squib, and in fact Ron wouldn't make fun of someone for 
> being one ("it's not funny really--but as it's Filch...").  For all he 
> despises Filch, he never throws his Squibness up in his face nor 
> refers to it again to the others.  Is there anything else anywhere 
> revealing Ron's attitudes toward Squibs that I've forgotten?

I'm not sure I take this passage in precisely the same way as you do,
Amy (and may the gods forgive me for disagreeing with you! *g*).  When
Ron justifies laughing about Filch being a Squib by pointing out that
it's Filch he's laughing at, that read to me as though making fun of
Squibs isn't the 'done thing', that it's terribly gauche to laugh at
Squibs -- but that the impulse to laugh is there nonetheless.  (A
parallel might be laughing at someone falling down, but saying that it
was okay to laugh because they weren't hurt.  That sort of thing.)  I
agree that Ron doesn't hate Filch *for* his Squibness (Squibship *g*?),
but I think that it's politeness, and not natural inclination, that
keeps him from making fun of Squibs generally.  He's indulging himself
in a situation in which normal rules of what's polite have been
suspended since, as Ron puts it, "it's Filch."  

Just a general comment too -- it makes me so happy to see someone
actually quote the text when they're offering an interpretation!  It
absolutely warms the cockles of my classicist heart to have a specific
text to argue over; it's much eaiser than trying to provide an
interpretation based on summary and paraphrase.  (Others besides Amy
quote the text too, of course, I just noticed it here since I happened
to be giving a close reading, and it did make me happy. *g*)

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 02:28:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:28:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Steve's Canon versus Fanfic Post
References: <9b27d4+cutq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD512D4.6D764667@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16473

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
>
> > I don't WANT
> > anyone's interpretations to interfere.
> <snip> And I say again that THAT IS MY POINT.
> > I don't WANT to read someone else's interpretation.
>
> Poor Steve, what ARE you going to do when the movie comes out?

Well, I for one am considering the movie to be someone else's take on
the very same story that JKR has already told us. Like Aunt Elsie's
version of the time Steve fell off the roof, as opposed to Steve's. It's
the *same story,* at base.

The movie, like the audiobooks, is somebody else's version of an
existing story. [And I also don't like to see movies based on books I
have not read, and generally won't go see them until I've read the book
first. That way it's definitely a "version," not the "original," in my
mind. Like I get to see so many movies....yeah, right.]

Fanfiction is not a different version of an existing story. Fanfiction
takes characters from the story and makes new stories. Suggesting
scenarios and conversations and motivations and such based entirely on
stuff that isn't from the original.

And movie-wise, I won't really have a problem anyway, because the movie
will be visual images, and that's not what I generally get when I read.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andreahb at uol.com.br  Thu Apr 12 02:34:01 2001
From: andreahb at uol.com.br (andreahb at uol.com.br)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:34:01 -0000
Subject: Announcements List / OotP release date
In-Reply-To: <3AD3CA7F.9E857A29@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b346p+89ae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16474

Penny wrote:
> Just to report that all the feedback we've received so far has been
> positive.  People like the Announcements group and the trio of 
groups.

I for one am very thankful to the Announcements list, since there's 
no way I can keep up with all the posts of the main group.

Through the aforementioned group (gosh, that sounds bad), I read 
Penny's message telling us of the release date of OotP (November 
2001, according to Amazon.com), but I still haven't found any 
confirmation of that piece of news. Is that official?

Anxiously,
?ndrea from Brazil




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 02:40:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:40:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Announcements List / OotP release date
References: <9b346p+89ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD51589.5BD37E4C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16475

andreahb at uol.com.br wrote:

> Through the aforementioned group (gosh, that sounds bad), I read
> Penny's message telling us of the release date of OotP (November 2001,
> according to Amazon.com), but I still haven't found any confirmation
> of that piece of news. Is that official?

No, it's Amazon. I got it off Snapefans and sent it to Penny since I
didn't have the Announcements group in my address book. I think we're
going on the assumption that those in The Biz will know more than we do
about release dates, having inside info. This clearly could be a big
mistake, but hey, it's what we got.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Apr 12 02:42:22 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:42:22 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)
In-Reply-To: <9b2s53+po63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b34me+98rm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16476

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:

> Original sentiment was this:  I can accept the idea of R/H in 
future books.  What would be weird is if in the first few chapters of 
Book 5, He--->R just pops up as if it was there all along.>

I agree. First, if there is going to be R/H, Ron will have to 
actually recognize and admit that he's attracted to Hermione <g>. 
Starting off with "And Hermione and Ron hooked up over the summer, so 
let's go on from there, shall we?" would be unrealistic - and lucky 
for us, out of character for JKR.

> First of all, I rather think we haven't seen the last of Krum... 
and I do think it's plausible to suggest he'll have a role in the 
rest of the narrative.>

I'm wildly curious to know if Hermione goes to Bulgaria. I'm saying 
she doesn't, but that's only a feeling (she doesn't go in the stories 
I've written - oops, did a plug just slip in there? <g>). If she does 
go, I think this would force Ron into a response closer to his true 
feelings than his "you can't talk to Krum because he's the enemy!" 
line from GoF.

> Second of all, R/H needs to build IMO.  If Book 5 
> contains He--->R buildup as only JKR can do it, I just may have to 
> change sides.  (j/k)

Ebony, you know you have closet R/Hr tendencies - just admit it <g>.

I just glanced back over this and I realize it's essentially a "me 
too" post. Please excuse me; it's my first day of vacation, and it's 
made me a bit giddy.

Best,
B




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Apr 12 03:06:43 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:06:43 -0700
Subject: Oven Cleaner - 12 Uses of Dragon Blood
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEBNDHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16477


I found the article that mentions using Dragon Blood for Oven Cleaner.  
The full article may be found at:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/harrypotter1.html

                            A Setback for Harry Potter
                                 It's a Rough Road to Hollywood 

                by Holly Hartman 
                                                          
<snip>....
                Scottish author J. K. Rowling is on hand to
                approve the script. "I'm more involved than I
                thought I would be," she says, though the visual
                side is left to the moviemakers. "I can't wait to
                see how they will pull off a quidditch game,"
                says Rowling. She chose Warner Brothers as a
                studio in part because they promised her the film
                would be live action rather than animation. 

                In case you've been wondering, the movie script
                will reveal the twelve uses for dragon's blood
                (Rowling claims that use #12 is "oven cleaner"). 

<snip>....




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 03:10:07 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 03:10:07 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F9ZQl5AVcLpqqF00003d99@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16478

I agree there may be as yet unknown issues from the past between Snape and 
the Longbottoms, which may result in his giving Neville a hard time - that's 
why I said "no known issues".  However, I don't care how many issues Snape 
has, I still can't forgive him for being a rotten teacher.  Even taking an 
ultra-charitable view - he's trying to toughen Neville up - it's *not 
working* and if Snape was any kind of a teacher, he'd realize the poor kid 
is scared out of his wits.  Actually, I think he *does* realize that, and is 
pathetic enough to like it.

Agree Trelawney is rotten to him as well, but in a more subtle way, (which 
may indeed be more damaging) as she is a more subtle example of a bad 
teacher.  Snape goes out of his way to bully Neville, while Trelawney simply 
does not care how he feels, as long as she looks good to her fans in the 
class.

But I think Neville has more to him than either Snape or Trelawney realizes, 
and will get over them.  I *love* the way he dealt with the boggart Snape, 
and I *love* Lupin for giving him his chance [I cried] -  spot the 
difference between Lupin's professional, constructive help and fake Moody's 
fake sympathy.

Morag, who is (trying to be) a teacher, knows JKR was one and thinks you 
could base a teacher-training course around the teaching wisdom in HP.



_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Apr 12 03:08:10 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:08:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Ron Week]: Extended
In-Reply-To: <20010409215109.1824.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9ata34+h3l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010411200636.00bc8210@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16479

At 02:51 PM 4/9/01 -0700, you wrote:
> > I know the guns are going to go a-blasting from SugarQuill Island
> > for this...and I will state, for the record, that Ron has done some
> > great things in his time - letting himself be taken during that
> > chess game was *great*...
>
>Now that you mention it, I do believe that Ron has been changing
>throughout the books.  The chess-playing, intellectual Ron seems to
>have vanished.  He seems much more jumpy and physical in the late
>volumes.

Well, he is having a bit of a weird time at school, you know? Different 
people react to stress differently, and I think you could call this place 
stressful. ;)

Something I've noticed about him, is that he seems to be the character that 
the most red herrings come out of. He's the one who makes you suspect all 
the wrong people... ;)

-Katie




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Apr 12 03:20:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:20:10 -0500
Subject: Ron & 2nd Task
References: <9b32e2+ekfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD51EEA.A0FE34D0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16480

Hi --

Great post from Amy Z (I agree with most everything you said but ....)
--

Amy Z wrote:

> And then there's the 2nd task, by which JKR tells us in no uncertain
> terms that Ron is the most important person in Harry's life.

Um .... well, we don't know how the hostages were chosen.  We don't know
that Hermione wasn't already Krum's hostage when it came time to decide
who Harry's hostage should be.  I really think it was ultimately a plot
device to be sure that 3 people that Harry cares about were hostages; I
have a very hard time thinking that JKR was sending a direct message
that Ron is more important to Harry than Hermione.

I disagree quite strongly that this hostage situation makes Hermione 2nd
in Harry's heart.  I think it's a bad idea to go down the road of
wondering which of his 2 best friends is the most important to him.
They both have important strengths that they bring to him ... so I
always go with the position that they are both equally important to
Harry.  He's 14, so his male best friend is important to him in ways
that Hermione can't fill (she can't talk about Quidditch like Ron can
and he finds it less fun to be spending so much time in the library).
By the same token, Hermione has been more loyal to Harry IMO and she
fills a role that Ron can't (she's the brainiac who finds all the
spells/curses that he *needs* to use in the 3rd Task (and ultimately
help keep him alive) for example).  They're both quite important to him,
and I sure wouldn't want to engage in a debate of which one is more
important.

> Lisa, all I can say is a big "me too!" to your "Ron's stubbornness"
> post.

I liked it very much too!!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 03:50:00 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 03:50:00 -0000
Subject: Sundry responses on Ron
In-Reply-To: <9b32e2+ekfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b38l8+7hjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16481

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Lisa, all I can say is a big "me too!" to your "Ron's stubbornness" 
> post.  (I have more sympathy for Harry's nastiness in the 
> badge-chucking scene, though.  Yeah, he's being an utter jerk, but 
as 
> we know and Ron doesn't, he's been stressed to the breaking point.  
He 
> has good reason to think Ron's interruption may cost him his 
life.)  
> You really summed up a lot of my thoughts on Ron.  The Ron rhetoric 
> has been getting kind of extreme on both sides ("Ron's emotionally 
> abusive" on the one ridiculous extreme, "Ron's funny, brave, etc. 
and 
> therefore can't be jealous" on the other) and your post was so 
> balanced and reasonable.

Gee, I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked 
my new earmuffs!  However, my attempt to balance <grips her long 
baton nervously as she crosses the wire> has led you to believe I 
didn't feel any sympathy for Harry in that scene!  I was taking 
Harry's being-deserving-of-sympathy as a given and trying to add 
Ron's to the scene as well.  I agree with whoever said that the Fight 
and its resolution after the First Task are very poignant and moving 
precisely because they are so taut with unspeakable emotion.

And speaking of unspeakable emotion, Mo credited my American 
sensibility with the hypothetical Ron-apology to Hermione that I 
concocted.  I hadn't thought of that, I admit, but I'll also say 
freely that even this American couldn't think of a believable way for 
Ron to actually say it without sounding pathetically stilted.  It's 
just the principle of the thing; and the fact that Ron tested Pig on 
Crookshanks at the end of PoA just goes to show that JKR knows how to 
paint Ron better than I do--go fig.  <g>

--Lisa, who liked Amanda's post on reading fanfic and forming images 
(hearty "me toos" amongst all my personalities <eg>), and who is 
still eager to see somebody write fight songs for Hufflepuff and 
Ravenclaw.  I've run out of tunes I can put names to.  :)




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 04:16:45 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 04:16:45 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet Classified Ads
Message-ID: <9b3a7d+9sv9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16482

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Cleansweep 7.  Fair condition, worn cushioning charm, leans slightly 
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Used Cookbooks For Sale.  Magical Meals for Moms, 101 Potable 
Potions, The Charm of Casseroles, Spellbinding Soups for Winter 
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Chizpurtles chomping on your cauldron?  Ghouls groaning at your 
guests?  Imp infestation in the attic insulation?  Try Polly 
Peterson's Pesky Pest Potion Pesticides.  On sale now at apothecaries 
everywhere, or by owl order to Peterson's Pest Prevention, 31b Diagon 
Alley, London.

PERSONALS

R., I am bewitched by your smile.  You enchant me. ? H.

Attractive but lonely wizard, professional educator, early 40's, dark 
hair, pale, enjoys candlelight dinners in romantic dungeons, walks on 
the beach, potion-making.  Seeking attractive, dark-haired, pale 
witch of similar temperament for friendship, maybe more.  Box 931, 
Hogsmeade.

HELP WANTED

Defense Against the Dark Arts professor for noted secondary school.  
Send resume and cover owl to A. Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts 
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(compiled by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, the Daily Prophet's U.S. 
correspondent)




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 04:19:34 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 04:19:34 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b27kd+gco4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3acm+9pli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16483

arabella at s... wrote:

>I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a 
>way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm 
>sorry",  probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?" 

And if Harry refused to accept such a weak attempt at reconciliation 
he would be entirely justified. This was no small thing, Ron in 
effect was saying he no longer trusted Harry, this deserves an 
unambiguous "I'm sorry", although Harry would have settled for less.

>To me personally, this says that Harry's not too interested in a 
>big speechy apology and  tears and handshaking.

I agree and that's to Harry's credit. 

>Your wish that an author should "rewrite" her books simply because 
>you did not interpret the  written action in the way she intended, 
>is... not a wish that I can > understand.

I don't want her to rewrite the book, I think it's fine the way it 
is, but if she was trying to make Harry look equally responsible for 
the fight (and despite the interview I find it hard to believe she 
was) then she failed.

>"Easy going"?  Harry chucked a badge at Ron's  head and said aloud 
>the words that both of them had been thinking - harsher words 
>between them, I can't find.  "You might even have a scar 
> now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?" 

Ok, you don't have a clue how to fight a dragon but you're about to 
find out, you are about to hear information that could very well save 
your life but I unintentionally prevent you from hearing it. Would 
you perhaps be a tad upset with me? 







From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 04:25:56 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 04:25:56 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet Classified Ads
In-Reply-To: <9b3a7d+9sv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3aok+mlf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16484


> (compiled by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, the Daily Prophet's U.S. 
> correspondent)

I don't *care* if I get a Howler, I don't care!  I'm rolling, I'm 
gurgling, I'm turning purple with glee!

Thank you!

Lisa




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Thu Apr 12 04:45:06 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 04:45:06 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet Classified Ads
In-Reply-To: <9b3a7d+9sv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3bsi+7bst@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16485

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
>> Attractive but lonely wizard, professional educator, early 40's, 
dark 
> hair, pale, enjoys candlelight dinners in romantic dungeons, walks 
on 
> the beach, potion-making.  Seeking attractive, dark-haired, pale 
> witch of similar temperament for friendship, maybe more.  Box 931, 
> Hogsmeade.<<

I dunno... I kind of think he'd need someone of a slightly more 
patient and less grudge-bearing nature than his own... and I think he 
prefers blondes. ;)

Romantic Dungeons: Oxymoron of the day.

Attractive?! According to who? Certainly not Harry, Ron, or 
Hermione... or nearly anyone else at Hogwarts, I'd imagine.

Hehehehe. This cracked me up.

Lyda





From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 04:54:17 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 04:54:17 -0000
Subject: Steve's canon versus Fanfic post
Message-ID: <9b3cdp+6voo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16486

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

>Anyone who's read things I've written over the past, what is it, a 
year? 
>knows that I will undoubtedly come down pretty strongly in favor of
>keeping the canon free from outside interpretation.  

I see a flaw in your logic here. How can you be a part of this or any
Other list and not have outside interpretations? You don't have to 
read just Fanfic to be influenced by outside interpretation. Everyone 
on this list has their own interpretations to the canon. They post 
those ideas here, you included. How can you honestly say that you 
haven't been influenced in some way even a little bit by other 
people's ideas. If you wanted to have a "pure" and unbiased view of 
the canon then you be on an extremely active discussion list that 
presents alternate views and interpretations of characters and 
events. 


>And what I try to avoid are other people's assumptions and creative 
>alterations of the characters. I am trying SO hard NOT to assume, 
>NOT to color what little is there with suppositions. 

>I don't WANT anyone's interpretations to interfere. I can't avoid my 
own, although I do try to keep as objective as possible. But I can 
>avoid others'. 
 
However can you say with 100% certainty that your views of the canon
have not changed in any way, shape, or form over that last year since
you've been on this list. Again I don't think you can honestly say 
that even in a small way there haven't been subtle changes in your 
interpretations just based on pure discussion alone.


> That kind of coloring of what's actually there is what I do not want
> to have happen to me. I don't WANT to feel sympathetic toward Draco
> or Snape. That's not the way the characters are portrayed in the
> books. (No, it isn't; they're stereotypes, let's face it).

 Let me open this argument by using my friend as an example. 
She has only read the 4 Harry Potter books, she has NEVER read 
a review on said canon, she has never read page one of a fanfic, 
and until this morning she had never even seen a list group. She is
a vestal virgin so to speak in the Harry Potter world. She has not
been even remotely influenced by outside sources, me included. This 
morning we did talk a bit about Draco based on some of things I
mentioned I was reading in the posts. She said she has sympathy for 
Draco because of how Lucius is in the canon. She said that she doesn't
see why Draco can't be a redeemable character. She is exactly the 
type of person you claim to be, uninfluenced. Yet she sees both Snape 
and Draco in a sympathetic light as so many other's on this list see 
them. 

Also since you say you don't WANT to feel sympathetic towards Draco 
mean that maybe you are starting to feel that way towards him?

As for your take on Snape:
 
>You are right. But neither is he a multi-leveled, subtley shaded, 
>nuanced character of the type you find in literature. His actions 
are almost invariably somewhere between rude and downright 
>despicable. There is virtually nothing in the canon besides that. 
>There are a few tidbits here and there, such as the gripping of the 
>back of the chair when he heard that Ginny had been taken into the 
>Chamber of Secrets, but that is certainly nowhere near enough 
>evidence to interpret the character in a completely different way 
>from the way he's written. No, I don't know what JKR might do with 
>the character down the line. No, I can't state her intentions any 
>better than anyone else can. But I can read (and I am also a lit 
>major, BTW, undergrad and postgrad).


I see a lot of subtle shading in Snape especially in PoA. We find out 
a little more of why he hates Harry so. It's because he looks like 
James and he has similar traits to James. We see why he gives Lupin
Death looks essentially because of the "prank". He hates Sirius for 
The same reason. He resents that James saved him from said prank and
He carries that over to Harry. Yet he has proven throughout the series
that despite his resentment he looks out for Harry. I think he is more
than some one or two-dimensional stereotypical character. I think JKR 
is going to develop Snape more in the next book. What exactally is 
his task? IMO.

I don't deny that I have been influenced in some ways by fanfic. I 
have. It's made me want to go back and reread the books to see why 
someone like Cassie, Penny, or Lori have their takes on characters. 
Did they see something that I missed?  Does that cloud my overall 
view of the canon? No I don't think so I think fanfic has enhanced my 
view. It's also caused me to join this list among others.
I just don't see this as a bad thing or a corrupt thing.


I hope I made at least some sense in my arguments. I'm not as 
eloquent as Penny. 


Kristin






From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 10 23:37:37 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:37:37 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary: Priori Incantatem - Brother Wands
Message-ID: <LAW2-F143Faatao8KK800001c32@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16487




This one made me laugh, er OL.  I suppose the spider would be rather annoyed 
with Harry and he'd have to fight it all over again, just as V's victims 
turn on *him* - though being a dumb animal, it might just turn on V...
Hope I credited this posting right - it gets very confusing (especially at 
this time in the morning) when *all* previous messages are included *g*

>From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk

>
>
>kinda boring priori incantatem if it was harrys wand! what we got?
>
>
>spider fighting i guess....
>stupefy
>expelliaramus
>stupefy
>impedimenta
>stupefy
>
>
>
>nowhere near as exiting as mr v's....
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 05:45:00 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:45:00 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet Classified Ads
In-Reply-To: <9b3a7d+9sv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3fcs+4gup@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16488

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> 
> PERSONALS

> Attractive but lonely wizard, professional educator, early 40's, 
dark > hair, pale, enjoys candlelight dinners in romantic dungeons, 
walks on > the beach, potion-making.  Seeking attractive, dark-
haired, pale > witch of similar temperament for friendship, maybe 
more.  Box 931, > Hogsmeade.
> 


Dear Box 931,

I'm a witch who's spent too much time living alone, two streets away 
from 4 Privet Drive. I love my cats. I'm also fond of candlelight 
dinners amidst the arousing aroma of cabbage. Potion-making sounds 
like a good time, but I'd really be thrilled if you happen to be a 
tall, slender, dark-haired wizard with a magic, flying motorcycle.
Box 413, Little Whinging, Surrey




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 06:06:39 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:06:39 -0000
Subject: Tom Riddle's Diary/Voldemort's Risen Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <9b2irf+pscu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3glf+dnei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16489

Wormtail [scabbers] may not have overheard that Lucius gave Ginny the 
diary. He surely told Lord V about the CoS being opened. Even if LV 
new of Lucius' involvement, why give away easy credit? You are right, 
it had no direct affect on his current condition. 

It is interesting to me that LV calls him Wormtail not Peter. 

Bugg 


--- arabella wrote:
I'd forgotten that Wormtail knows all about it.  So many 
details, the head spins.  Now, I can't imagine that Wormtail wouldn't 
tell Voldemort... but then why would V leave it out of his tally, 
when he's detailing his second rise?  Maybe just because it's 
irrelevant, as Tom existed separately from what Voldemort was 
actually physically going through at the time?  
> 
> ~Arabella 





From elanorgamgee at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 06:11:35 2001
From: elanorgamgee at yahoo.com (Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] : Ron Sequitors
In-Reply-To: <3AD5096C.95D16BE3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010412061135.54509.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16490


Why, oh WHY do all the interesting threads come up when my computer isn?t working? J 

Rosmerta wrote:

>The scene in GoF with his dress robes is played for laughs, but it's 
>heartwrenching for a teenager to be wearing loser clothes, and 
>especially to a big event like the Yule Ball. Yes, he was a jerk at 
>the Ball, but why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't look 
>to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes 
>lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she 
>looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.

Oh, what a wonderful observation, Rosmerta! True, Harry doesn?t spend too much time thinking about how Ron must feel in this situation, but you?re right?you can bet that Ron notices. Granted, he?s not exactly Mr. Charm with poor Padma, but she?s not exactly the most accommodating date either, is she? Just thinking about Ron being stuck in those dress robes, in the Entrance hall, looking for Hermione?ahhh, poor Ron. Even though he?s a jerk later?.poor Ron?.

Penny wrote:

>I'd have to think more to come up with others. But, I think he does go beyond sarcasm with more frequency in the latter 2 books.

Well, of course he does. He?s a 14 year old boy, experiencing all sorts of emotions and experiences that he has no idea how to deal with. As Rosmerta pointed out, you feel things more keenly at 14 than you do at 12. His defense mechanism is sarcasm (sometimes laced with bitterness)?it only stands to reason that this would become more pronounced as he has more to be defensive about.

I wrote:>So, that will tell you how I feel about "the youngest and most >impressive Weasley man."


And Penny responded:
>Can I ask (ever so politely): How is it that Ron (who, the last time I >checked was still an adolescent boy and not a man) qualifies as the >"most impressive" of the Weasley males?

This is actually a fanfic quote that I happen to love. It?s from Zsenya?s "At Diagon Alley" (which is awesome?PLUG!) and I love it because it describes Ron as he could be (or WILL be, IMO), once he gets a clue. I don?t expect that those who are not Ron fans will understand this.

Penny wrote:
>1. In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up with Hermione. I don't know where >you get half-heartedly out of the >language in that scene. He approaches her on his own & quietly >sets about trying to make up with her. Ron interrupts that with his loud & >mean-spirited comment >about Scabbers.

Sorry, I still don?t buy the idea of Harry?s whole-hearted sincerity here. As others have pointed out, he willingly participated in giving Hermione the cold shoulder, and was only willing to make up with her once he got his broomstick back. When he approaches her in the common room, I don?t deny that he wants to make up, but it?s not like he?s been pursuing that goal or anything. He sees her sitting there and approaches her out of guilt. Actually, I would say that his motivation has more to do with wanting things to be back to normal with his friends than particularly caring about Hermione?s feelings per se. And Harry doesn?t exactly go out of his way to try to convince Ron to talk to Hermione again. That?s where I get half-hearted. I?ve said it before and I?ll say it again: if I were Hermione, I would be really angry with Harry for not appreciating what I good friend I had been in a similar situation (his fight with Ron). Hermione is definitely the bigger person in that particular case, but we all knew that.

Penny: >Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger & satisfaction on his >face. *Satisfaction.* He >enjoyed reducing her to tears.

Of course he?s satisfied. He got a rise out of her. He proved to himself that his opinion mattered to her. There she is, at the ball with another guy, and he?s still able to get a reaction out of her. Of course he doesn?t realize at that point why it matters so much. And, as Arabella pointed out, he?s trying to unpin some of his hurt onto her. Yes, that still makes him a prat. But it doesn?t make him an evil person who derives pleasure from hurting others.



Arabella wrote:

>Re: Ron - Ron absolutely throws in the comment about Scabbers being eaten, and IMO it's a deliberate "I hope you feel bad." But I >think he jabs at her because he too is feeling pretty bad, and he's fishing 
>for sympathy and apology. I have to look at his motivation in the context of the story - it's not just arbitrary meanness. 

Exactly! And his motivations are similar here too, I think. He wants to get some reaction from her that shows she cares. He?s angry over the loss of his pet, but he?s also hurt. We all know how much he really loves his pets, but won?t admit it. So he misses Scabbers, but he?s also hurt that someone who matters to him (though he doesn?t realize exactly how much) would treat him (and Scabbers) the way she has.

Penny wrote: >Um .... well, we don't know how the hostages were chosen. We don't know that Hermione wasn't already Krum's hostage >when it came time to decide who Harry's hostage should be. I really think it was >ultimately a plot device to be sure that 3 people that >Harry cares about were hostages; I have a very hard >time thinking that JKR was sending a direct message that Ron is more important >to Harry than Hermione.

Well, as you probably already know, I strongly disagree on that one. I think there is plenty of evidence that Ron would be Harry?s thing-he-missed-most over Hermione any time. But that?s already been argued and argued, so anyone who wants to go into that can check the archives. What I would like to say, however, is that I think Hermione would know this?and I don?t think she would be angry or feel slighted by this, as some have suggested. I think she would be happy for Ron, I really do.

Of course, the question I enjoy pondering is, who would Ron?s and Hermione?s hostages have been? ;)

Cap?n Kathy

AKA Elanor Gamgee

Who is really going to bed now?

 

 

 



"What can I say to people who insist on being that thick?

--Hermione, to Gwen

from HQOW, Year 4 by Arabella



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andeinmn at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 06:13:52 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:13:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
Message-ID: <80.993a5b9.2806a1a0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16491

In a message dated 4/9/01 8:33:21 AM Central Daylight Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:

> Good morning everyone  --
>  
>  andeinmn at aol.com wrote:
>  
>  > Doreen, honey, there are good drivers in Minnesota.  But we're all
>  > from out of state!!
>  
>  Andrea -- not trying to pick on you, but this is the perfect example of
>  something that should only be posted to the OT-Chatter list.

Penny:

I am withdrawing from HP4GU.  No, this incident alone is not enough to make 
me pack my bags, but it's one of several things which are disturbing me.

I have been playing on lists for several years now.  I have made what I know 
will be lifelong friends through lists and have had a lot of fun.  I don't 
want to make anyone's job more difficult.  But.

I have a problem with a moderator who uses that status to perpetrate a hoax 
on the entire group.  Same day, same moderator barely acknowledges vicious 
ridiculing of member for her grammar.  Says play nice, but, heh-heh, she's 
always like that, now we get a cute little acronym.  To nitpick matters of 
fact from canon is one thing, but to ridicule another member over word 
selection is arrogant and unacceptable.  I lost a lot of respect for the 
moderators that day.

For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular little group.  
It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members who do post 
are rarely acknowledged.  At least weekly there is one public deep sigh from 
an older member about how nice things were before "all those Salon people" 
came aboard, "oh, here we go again" when one of them is actually brave enough 
to post something.  These remarks go unchallenged.  I'm not saying this is 
the rudest group online.  That distinction, I'm sorry to say, belongs 
collectively to every list devoted to the works of Dorothy L. Sayers.  I love 
the weekly chapter and character discussions but if I am going to slog 
through 100+ messages a day, I don't want to have to be worried about 
minefields.

Penny, please understand I'm not singling you out.  I know first hand how 
difficult is it manage a group this large.  But I feel if less time was spent 
blowing whistles at intersections and more time spent making HP4GU a pleasant 
place for all to indulge their obsession, many of the problems would be 
minimized, if for no other reason than loyalty to those who work so hard to 
make this a wonderful place to play.

I wish you well with your new baby.

Sincerely,
Andrea Lawrence



From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 06:15:39 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:15:39 -0000
Subject: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)
In-Reply-To: <9b34me+98rm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3h6b+6fps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16492

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> 
> > Original sentiment was this:  I can accept the idea of R/H in 
> future books.  What would be weird is if in the first few chapters 
of Book 5, He--->R just pops up as if it was there all along.>
> 
> I agree. First, if there is going to be R/H, Ron will have to 
> actually recognize and admit that he's attracted to Hermione <g>. 
snip 
> > Second of all, R/H needs to build IMO.  If Book 5 
> > contains He--->R buildup as only JKR can do it, I just may have 
to change sides.  (j/k)


I think that any Harry/? or Ron/? relationship will require some sort 
of buildup.  They were both pretty pathetic in the Yule Ball event in 
GoF, both in the way they got dates and the way they behaved at the 
actual event - which may be perfectly normal for a first-time attempt 
at a date from young guys.  Harry obviously has no one to use as a 
guide to dating, but you'd think that Ron might have picked up a clue 
or two from one or more of his older brothers. 

 Maybe JKR is planning a scene in Book V where the guys feel like 
they need to ask dating advice from a more experienced, older male.  
Quite frankly, I think a scene where Harry and Ron ask Sirius for 
dating tips could be a real howl.  The boys would be embarrassed, 
Sirius would be somewhat reticent, and it would end with Ron throwing 
up his hands in defeat saying, "Oh sure, you're good-looking, I bet 
you never had any trouble getting girls to go out with you, and Harry 
is the famous Harry Potter, so he'll never have any trouble, either, 
and I'm just plain, old Ron, so I'll never get the attention of the 
really hot chicks..."

Marianne, with sympathy for all of us average gals/guys.




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 06:36:01 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:36:01 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <20010411204406.28864.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b3ich+n8dg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16493

Don't apologize, subjects get repeated. I am glad you reintroduced 
Arabella Figg as DADA instructor. I mentioned it in Message 15357 
[March 28th] but did not get many agreements. More people seem to 
think it may be Fleur. There is alot of room for charactor 
development. 


Bugg 


--- ESJ <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, 
what if Arabella Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts 
teacher in Book Five? Now that Vold. is in power and Dumbledore is 
starting to round up his posse, I would think that she would be there 
as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to help Harry. 
> Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, 
because maybe she's the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's 
every summer because she's protecting Harry. Perhaps she could be 
Dumbledore's female counterpart. 
> 
> -Erin J.





From gaynor at cheerful.com  Thu Apr 12 07:22:25 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:22:25 -0000
Subject: Audio books(was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <9b2lsn+euq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3l3h+dpmg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16494

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:


> 
> I know that the Jim Dale readings influenced me strongly, and I had 
> read the books prior to listening to them.  Can anybody compare Jim 
> Dale and Steven Fry?  Would it be worth trying to obtain the Fry 
> readings after having heard the Jim Dale recordings?
> 
> Haggridd

I've listened to both the Jim Dale version and Stephen Fry version of 
PS/SS and I much prefer the Stephen Fry. I find Jim Dale's character 
voices distracting and also I find his intonation is "off" in places. 

By the way, if anyone is looking for a reasonably-priced version of 
GoF (Stephen Fry) www.sunday-times.co.uk/books are selling it for 
?27.49 (45% off). I listened to it over the weekend and it's great.

Gaynor




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 07:55:17 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:55:17 -0000
Subject: tiny Lexicon-...thing
Message-ID: <9b3n15+g120@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16497


 
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pam Hugonnet <pbarhug at e...> wrote:
> he--Filch---never actually did it, but he says it has been done in 
the past.  Was it in Armando Dippett's time or before?
>

I believe at least they were in use back in Pringle?s days -  
remember Arthur Weasley?s word?s about "still having the marks" after 
a punishment this Pringle handed out. Seems like surroundings fit for 
chains. 
  
> drpam
> who never reads fanfic and agrees wholeheartly with Steve and Amanda
> about how they influence perceptions

/Jennifer (who never read it until she discovered the DD/DS-series - 
why withhold fine art from you for principles! :)

 





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 08:09:23 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:09:23 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
Message-ID: <9b3nrj+eg2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16498



ohh...this is so small and thin I can hardly make myself post it. But 
anyway...

This is a little comment on a discussion held some time ago, when the 
subject was wizarding primary school. I?m not sure if you all ended 
up beliving in them or not. But when I reread HP and the 
Philosopher?s Stone, I noticed this comment from Draco (The Forbidden 
Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-task. 
"...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
This is a very often used punishment in school (especially primary, I 
belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius Malfoy about 
handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco discover 
them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used to 
schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going to one 
before Hogwarts.

I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
/Jennifer




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 08:13:14 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:13:14 -0000
Subject: Audio books(was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <9b3l3h+dpmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3o2q+th54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16499

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > I know that the Jim Dale readings influenced me strongly, and I 
had 
> > read the books prior to listening to them.  Can anybody compare 
Jim 
> > Dale and Steven Fry?  Would it be worth trying to obtain the Fry 
> > readings after having heard the Jim Dale recordings?
> > 
> > Haggridd
> 
> I've listened to both the Jim Dale version and Stephen Fry version 
of 
> PS/SS and I much prefer the Stephen Fry. I find Jim Dale's 
character 
> voices distracting and also I find his intonation is "off" in 
places. 
> 
> By the way, if anyone is looking for a reasonably-priced version of 
> GoF (Stephen Fry) www.sunday-times.co.uk/books are selling it for 
> ?27.49 (45% off). I listened to it over the weekend and it's great.
> 
> Gaynor

I am a big fan of the Stephen Fry version.  His GoF cds arrived this 
morning, and I am frantically getting all the washing done so I can 
iron and listen at the same time (I feel guilty if I'm not doing 
something else when listening).

I was always put off the Jim Dale versions from adverse reviews I had 
read from English reviewers on Amazon.  He is reading the American 
version, and someone also said that he mispronounced Hermione.  Being 
English, I wanted to make sure I was listening and reading the same 
text. (I also knew that "mom" et al would grate on me).

IMO, Stephen Fry is perfect.  He has me in stitches in one scene, in 
floods of tears the next, and I can't think of one episode in which 
his interpretation grates on me.
The only problem I had was giving Hagrid a West Country accent.  In 
the UK, this accent is used ad infinitum in period dramas to depict 
some country bumpkin (no matter which part of the country they come 
from) who has very little intellect - ie.  not very bright but heart 
of gold types.  Now, this may be a reasonable, but not strictly 
accurate interpretation of Hagrid, but it annoyed me at the time.  
Since then, I have heard JKR say that Hagrid does have a WC accent, 
so I guess I'm wrong on that one.  (Unless that was what she was 
trying to convey as well).

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 08:40:50 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:40:50 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Percy, Fred)
In-Reply-To: <9b33ck+9rah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3pmi+66em@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16500

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > =Warning: listies who accompanied Fred to the Yule Ball may want 
to 
> > skip this post <eg>=
> > Aha!:  On chat the other day, I was trying to remember the 3rd 
> thing I'd noticed was a Fred, not George, nasty trick on Ron.  
Susan 
> has now supplied it and added a fourth.  Thank you, Susan.
> > 
> > My point was that we lump Fred and George together (at least I 
do), 
> > but all the instances I can think of of childhood traumas 
inflicted 
> on Ron by "the twins" were in fact Fred's doing.  Sorry, Ebony!
> > 
> 
> Don't be sorry.  I do think Fred's the leader of the two... and I'm 
> not half as defensive about Fred as I am critical of Ron.  I also 
am 
> quick to defend Percy most of the time, but Penny's done a great 
job 
> of it over the past couple of days.
> 
> Fred can defend himself, I'm sure.   
> 
> > 1) (least serious IMO) telling him you have to wrestle a troll to 
> get Sorted (PS/SS)
> > 2) changing his teddy bear into a giant spider (CoS)
> > 3) giving him an acid pop that burned a hole in his tongue (PoA)
> > 4) (most serious IMO) Beating his puffskein, apparently to death 
> ("I used to have one of these" "What happened?"  "Fred used it for 
> Bludger practice":  clear implication is that the past tense is due 
> to the Bludger practice) (FB)
> > 
> > So, my question is:  what's with Fred?  Are other people growing 
as 
> > disturbed by the overall picture of him as I am?
> > 
> 
> Nope.  But then again, I'm not hugely protective of either Ron or 
> animals.  We established this fact in chat.  ;-)

Yes, I remember this as well, and I think I suggested that Ron *may* 
have been joking - kind of sarcastic thing he would say.  (And you 
did admit the possibility Amy!

On the points above - 
1) This is akin telling children in the UK that when they start 
secondary school they will have their head flushed down the toilet, 
either on their first day, or their birthday.  I think everyone knows 
that it's not true, and I am sure that Ron would not be stupid enough 
to think that at 11 years old he would have to wrestle with a troll.

2) Didn't Fred turn Ron's teddy into a spider because Ron had broken 
his toy broom?  I can't for the life of me find the quote, but I am 
sure it's in CoS somewhere.  I actually side with Ron on this one.  
My evil younger brother used to take great delight in collecting the 
largest, hairiest spiders he could find in our out buildings, in a 
bucket, and throwing at them.  I am very phobic of spiders as a 
result, and have never truly forgiven him for it.

> We don't hear if Ron ever did anything to the twins or Percy to 
> provoke these reactions.  There are two sides to every story.  If 
> Ron's like most younger sibs, then... never mind.

We do - see above!
> I close with a long quote from PoA.  Please, note Fred vs. George 
> below.
> 
> *******************************
> "Harry!" said Fred, who looked extremely white underneath, the mud.
> "How're you feeling?"
> 
> It was as though Harry's memory was on fast forward. The lightning -
-
> the Grim -- the Snitch -- and the dementors...
> 
> "What happened?" he said, sitting up so suddenly they all gasped.
> 
> "You fell off," said Fred. "Must've been -- what -- fifty feet?"
> 
> "We thought you'd died," said Alicia, who was shaking.
> 
> Hermione made a small, squeaky noise. Her eyes were extremely 
> bloodshot.
> 
> "But the match," said Harry. "What happened? Are we doing a replay?"
> 
> No one said anything. The horrible truth sank into Harry like a 
stone.
> 
> "We didn't -- lose?"
> 
> "Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "Just after you fell. He 
didn't
> realize what had happened. When he looked back and saw you on the
> ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a rematch. But they won 
fair 
> and square... even Wood admits it."
> 
> "Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he wasn't there.
> 
> "Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's trying to drown
> himself."
> 
> Harry put his face to his knees, his hands gripping his hair. Fred
> grabbed his shoulder and shook it roughly.  "C'mon, Harry, you've 
> never missed the Snitch before."
> 
> "There had to be one time you didn't get it," said George.
> 
> "It's not over yet," said Fred. "We lost by a hundred points"
> 
> "Right? So if Hufflepuff loses to Ravenclaw and we beat Ravenclaw 
and
> Slytherin --."
> 
> "Hufflepuff'll have to lose by at least two hundred points," said
> George.
> 
> "But if they beat Ravenclaw..."
> 
> "No Way, Ravenclaw is too good. But if Slytherin loses against
> Hufflepuff..."
> 
> "It all depends on the points -- a margin of a hundred either way."
> 
> Harry lay there, not saying a word. They had lost... for the first 
> time ever, he had lost a Quidditch match.
> 
> After ten minutes or so, Madam Pomfrey came over to tell the team to
> leave him in peace.
> 
> "We'll come and see you later," Fred told him. "Don't beat yourself 
> up, Harry, you're still the best Seeker we've ever had."
> 
> The team trooped out, trailing mud behind them.
> 
> **************************
> 
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ

I love this quote.  I am a staunch believer in the fact that George 
and Fred are even more loveable and perhaps even sensitive 
underneath.  IMO, they are good-natured, kind-hearted people who 
enjoy a bit of fun, which as Harry admits, is sorely needed.  Even in 
their very first scene they help an (as yet) unknown first year onto 
the train with his trunk.  How many other people would bother?  I 
also love the scene when they rescue Harry from the Dursleys' house 
in CoS.  I know they are trying to get around Molly, but "They were 
starving him, Mum!" (George) gets me everytime.
They are also almost always supportive of Harry, with the exception 
of when he loses the house points in PS.  Remember in Cos when Harry 
is relieved that Fred and George think it so ridiculous that Harry is 
Slytherin's Heir, that they spend all their time making fun of 
it?  "Make way, Heir of Slytherin coming through!" (paraphrase).
IMO, Fred and George use their humour and pranks to show how they 
actually feel about things, but have the sense to know (as in the 
scene above) when it is not appropriate.
Catherine




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Apr 12 08:55:51 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:55:51 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audiobooks, movies and fanfiction
In-Reply-To: <9b2lsn+euq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKKENLCCAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16501

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haggridd [mailto:jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations

> I know that the Jim Dale readings influenced me strongly, and I had 
> read the books prior to listening to them.  Can anybody compare Jim 
> Dale and Steven Fry?  Would it be worth trying to obtain the Fry 
> readings after having heard the Jim Dale recordings?

I only know the Jim Dale readings from the different samples on the
web, but I nevertheless decided last year that I would buy the British
Fry Readings. I think it was (at least for me) the right decision.  I love
the way he does most characters, and I think he has a very expressive
voice. His readings are a bit less than a radio show than Jim Dale's,
but he *does* give the characters different voices. He's better with the
adults than with the children, and I love his Snape, Dumbledore and
Hagrid. I don't like his Sirius, though. Maybe because he is my favorite
character and already had a very distinct voice in my head before I
listened to the audio versions. I just think he makes him sound too old,
almost like Hagrid. As for influencing my mental image of the characters,
I'd say no, he didn't influence me too much. It's the same thing as with
movies. I am a big fan of Michael Crichton, and my favorite book has 
always been Jurassic Park. I like the movie a lot, too, but it doesn't
influence my vision of the characters when I read the book again. The
medium is too different. And I don't think that the HP movie will alter
my mental image of those characters, it will just play on a different level.

I have just listened to the second part of the German audio edition of
GoF, Rufus Beck does a very good job, too, but I think he overdoes
the voices. He gives them all sorts of regional German and foreign
accents. I like it less than the Stephen Fry readings, but I wouldn't
say it wasn't as well done. It is just entirely different. It doesn't confuse
me, though, even if it is yet another interpretation of the same characters.

I read a lot of fan fiction, too, and it doesn't change my image of the
characters in the canon, either. I can still distinguish between Heidi's
or Cassie's Draco and the Draco in the canon (whom I still don't like
at all), I see it as a kind of parallel universes. We don't know what will
will happen to the characters in the canon because the series isn't
finished yet, but it is fun to read about all the speculations. BTW, if
everyone had the very same perception of the characters as they are
drawn in the books, we wouldn't be here to discuss them, because
there wouldn't be any room for discussions at all. We all see them 
rather differently in our heads, even though we have all read the
same books. I know that my image of Sirius seems to differ a lot from
that of other people, and I am still convinced that my image is entirely
based on what we are told about him in the canon. But other people
see him entirely differently, and this is the fun about these discussions.
We have different interpretations of nearly everything that happens
in the books and that is what keeps this group going.

Monika
who is still about 400 messages behind and hopes to be able to catch
up over the next few days...

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Thu Apr 12 09:05:36 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What are we here for? (was Re: Compassion for Draco?)
Message-ID: <20010412090536.B77C6274E@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16502

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From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 10:27:03 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:27:03 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b3nrj+eg2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b3vtn+l2s1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16503

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> 
> ohh...this is so small and thin I can hardly make myself post it. 
But 
> anyway...
> 
> This is a little comment on a discussion held some time ago, when 
the 
> subject was wizarding primary school. I?m not sure if you all ended 
> up beliving in them or not. But when I reread HP and the 
> Philosopher?s Stone, I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
Forbidden 
> Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-task. 
> "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> This is a very often used punishment in school (especially primary, 
I 
> belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius Malfoy 
about 
> handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco 
discover 
> them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
> about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used to 
> schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going to one 
> before Hogwarts.
> 
> I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> /Jennifer


I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, mainly 
because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the beggining at 
Hogwarts..."

I don't know where he got the "writing lines" thing from, but at my 
primary school we didn't write lines. Maybe for punishment in other 
subject he has had to write lines (?). I'm not sure...




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 11 01:50:57 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:50:57 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F138m8OtprR0E600002638@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16504

Catherine wrote:

>Because of the perfectionist in him, and his regard for his family
>(which I believe in very strongly) I think that part of the reason he
>shut himself away during CoS is because of self-loathing (he failed
>his family and did not live up to his own exacting standards) and
>because he probably thinks that George, Fred and Ron think the same
>thing.
>
>Therefore, I too, felt desperately sorry for Percy.

Nice to know I'm not the only one with a soft spot for our Perce :). Perhaps 
Penelope Clearwater adores him - I hope so, as this would IMO help him to 
lighten up a little, don't you think?  If someone else took him seriously, 
he wouldn't have to take himself so seriously.  The only things we know 
about her are that she's smart (being a Ravenclaw) and is a betting woman.

It just occurred to me that there is an interesting parallel between Percy's 
bet on the Ravenclaw/Griffindor match and Bagman's bet on the Triwizard 
Tournament here, as neither Bagman nor Percy actually has the stake money.  
Bagman doesn't tell anyone and tries to cheat, and his bet is a last-ditch 
attempt to recoup his losses, cynically taking advantage of his position as 
judge.  Percy, OTHO,  bets out of Griffindor pride, and to be seen to be 
supporting his house.  He endearingly lets the cat out of the bag, with his 
"urgent whisper" to Harry to make sure he wins because "*I haven't got ten 
Galleons!*"  And of course, he wouldn't dream of influencing the match, even 
if he could.  So, he is risking losing face (something he *hates*) and money 
he hasn't got, to support his house.  Where Bagman is cynical, Percy is 
idealistic (if a bit silly - but then, he does win).  Percy may be a bit of 
a stuffed shirt at times, bless him, but he has high moral standards, which 
is why I repudiate any suggestion he will turn to the Dark Side.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 11:10:28 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:10:28 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b3vtn+l2s1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b42f4+9gss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16505

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > 
> > 
I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
> Forbidden 
> > Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-task. 
> > "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> > This is a very often used punishment in school (especially 
primary, 
> I 
> > belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius Malfoy 
> about 
> > handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco 
> discover 
> > them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
> > about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used to 
> > schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going to one 
> > before Hogwarts.
> > 
> > I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> > /Jennifer
> 
> 
> I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, mainly 
> because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the beggining 
at 
> Hogwarts..."
> 
> I don't know where he got the "writing lines" thing from, but at my 
> primary school we didn't write lines. Maybe for punishment in other 
> subject he has had to write lines (?). I'm not sure...


Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear way. i 
was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, to read 
and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids attended any 
such school before Hogwarts. 
Forgive me for causing missunderstandings :)
/Jennifer





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 11:20:46 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:20:46 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b42f4+9gss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b432e+42uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16506

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
> > Forbidden 
> > > Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-
task. 
> > > "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> > > This is a very often used punishment in school (especially 
> primary, 
> > I 
> > > belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius Malfoy 
> > about 
> > > handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco 
> > discover 
> > > them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
> > > about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used to 
> > > schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going to 
one 
> > > before Hogwarts.
> > > 
> > > I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> > > /Jennifer
> > 
> > 
> > I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, mainly 
> > because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the 
beggining 
> at 
> > Hogwarts..."
 
> Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear way. i 
> was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, to 
read 
> and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids attended 
any 
> such school before Hogwarts. 
> Forgive me for causing missunderstandings :)
> /Jennifer

I mentioned something along these lines recently.  I was wondering 
how all these children are taught the 3RRRs etc.  Either they do go 
to some form of primary school, are taught by their parents or have 
private tutors, unless it is somehow all *magicked* into them, which, 
I, personally, very much doubt.  Probably a combination of all three 
depending on wealth and status etc.  (I wonder if Draco went to a 
prep school?  He already seems firmly ensconsced in his little 
threesome by the first journey to Hogwarts not to have known Crabbe 
and Goyle before).

As you seem to imply Jennifer, I think that when Ron talks about 
everyone being at the same level, he meant as far as the magical 
subjects were concerned, not the basic studying skills they need.

Catherine





From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr 12 11:30:59 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:30:59 -0000
Subject: Announcements List / OotP release date
In-Reply-To: <3AD51589.5BD37E4C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b43lj+rgtk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16507


I checked on that Link to Amazon, but I could only read the remark of 
the Editorial review: The book will not be published untli 2002.
Have I missed something
hopefully
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> andreahb at u... wrote:
> 
> > Through the aforementioned group (gosh, that sounds bad), I read
> > Penny's message telling us of the release date of OotP (November 
2001,
> > according to Amazon.com), but I still haven't found any 
confirmation
> > of that piece of news. Is that official?
> 
> No, it's Amazon. I got it off Snapefans and sent it to Penny since I
> didn't have the Announcements group in my address book. I think 
we're
> going on the assumption that those in The Biz will know more than we 
do
> about release dates, having inside info. This clearly could be a big
> mistake, but hey, it's what we got.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 11:42:28 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:42:28 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b432e+42uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b44b4+360h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16508

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
> > > Forbidden 
> > > > Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-
> task. 
> > > > "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> > > > This is a very often used punishment in school (especially 
> > primary, 
> > > I 
> > > > belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius 
Malfoy 
> > > about 
> > > > handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco 
> > > discover 
> > > > them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
> > > > about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used 
to 
> > > > schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going to 
> one 
> > > > before Hogwarts.
> > > > 
> > > > I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> > > > /Jennifer
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, 
mainly 
> > > because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the 
> beggining 
> > at 
> > > Hogwarts..."
>  
> > Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear way. 
i 
> > was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, to 
> read 
> > and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids attended 
> any 
> > such school before Hogwarts. 
> > Forgive me for causing missunderstandings :)
> > /Jennifer


ok :)

claire
> 
> I mentioned something along these lines recently.  I was wondering 
> how all these children are taught the 3RRRs etc.  Either they do go 
> to some form of primary school, are taught by their parents or have 
> private tutors, unless it is somehow all *magicked* into them, 
which, 
> I, personally, very much doubt.  Probably a combination of all 
three 
> depending on wealth and status etc.  (I wonder if Draco went to a 
> prep school?  He already seems firmly ensconsced in his little 
> threesome by the first journey to Hogwarts not to have known Crabbe 
> and Goyle before).
> 
> As you seem to imply Jennifer, I think that when Ron talks about 
> everyone being at the same level, he meant as far as the magical 
> subjects were concerned, not the basic studying skills they need.
> 
> Catherine


Do you think that (if they did go to school) they go to muggle 
schools? At the start of PS/SS Ginny begs her mom to let her go to 
Hogwarts. If they do go to wizarding primary schools would they be 
taught simple charms? If not, what would be the point in having a 
wizarding school and not just going to a muggle school?


claire




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Thu Apr 12 11:47:10 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:47:10 -0000
Subject: ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
In-Reply-To: <80.993a5b9.2806a1a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b44ju+q8ai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16509

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:
> I am withdrawing from HP4GU. 

I wish you well.

> No, this incident alone is not enough to make 
> me pack my bags, but it's one of several things which are 
disturbing me.
> I have been playing on lists for several years now.  I have made 
what I know 
> will be lifelong friends through lists and have had a lot of fun.  
I don't 
> want to make anyone's job more difficult.  But.

 
> I have a problem with a moderator who uses that status to 
perpetrate a hoax 
> on the entire group. 

It was april fools day. It was funny. Anybody could have perpetrated 
a hoax (in fact Simon did another one and he's not a moderator), it 
was not therefore an abuse of power as he did not do anything that 
non-moderators could not.

 Same day, same moderator barely acknowledges vicious 
> ridiculing of member for her grammar.  Says play nice, but, heh-
heh, she's 
> always like that, now we get a cute little acronym.  To nitpick 
matters of 
> fact from canon is one thing, but to ridicule another member over 
word 
> selection is arrogant and unacceptable.  I lost a lot of respect 
for the 
> moderators that day.

Although I agree Rita went a bit overboard on this occasion, it was a 
fairly isolated occurence. The moderators would be going too far if 
they came down like a ton of bricks every time someone had a bad day. 
I thought over-moderation was what you're complaining about.

> For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular little 
group.  
> It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members who 
do post 
> are rarely acknowledged.

 With 1100 memebers, of course it's going to be difficult for new 
members to get established. Anyone who has ever started a new 
job/high school/whatever will tell you that it is difficult at first 
to be acknowledged when there are so many other people there. What 
would you suggest? Assign special greeting officers for newbies?
 And as for cliquishness, what was it you were saying earlier about 
making lifelong friends on lists? Of course people are going to make 
friends and keep more of an ear out for what they have to say than 
people they don't know.
  
> At least weekly there is one public deep sigh from 
> an older member about how nice things were before "all those Salon 
people" 
> came aboard, "oh, here we go again" when one of them is actually 
brave enough 
> to post something.  These remarks go unchallenged.  

It is said quite clearly in the list introduction that new members 
should read over/search archives to avoid repitition. Of course it's 
tiresome when you read the same descussion for the 10th time with no 
new material raised.

I love 
> the weekly chapter and character discussions but if I am going to 
slog 
> through 100+ messages a day, I don't want to have to be worried 
about 
> minefields.
> 
> Penny, please understand I'm not singling you out.  I know first 
hand how 
> difficult is it manage a group this large.  But I feel if less time 
was spent 
> blowing whistles at intersections and more time spent making HP4GU 
a pleasant 
> place for all to indulge their obsession, many of the problems 
would be 
> minimized, if for no other reason than loyalty to those who work so 
hard to 
> make this a wonderful place to play.

Less time spent blowing whistles? I thought you said that John did 
not do enough when Rita boiled over.
The whole reason for the forthright moderation on this group is to 
cut down on traffic. Which way do you want it?
 
> I wish you well with your new baby.

As do we all.





Dai




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr 12 11:49:36 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:49:36 -0000
Subject: Unfirendly group? Was re:re: ADMIN:re:...
Message-ID: <9b44og+mfso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16510

Dear Andrea !

Please stay!!
Of course, you are right, but don't leave.
I think you told Penny what you, and at least some of us newbies ( am 
I still a newbie after 3 weeks?) feel about quite clearly now. Give 
her time to react.

I was only on the list for 3hours!, had my 3rd Post out, when I got my 
first ruffle, about the topic being discussed in Length before.
Shocked, I tried to search through the thread and I actually found it 
3 weeks back, 1100 messages before I entered. I wanted to unsubscribe 
immediatly, but I waited one day, and I got a few really friendly 
answers to my questions, so I just ignored the unfriendly ones.

Anyway, the Newbies need support as much as they can get. So perhaps 
if we remember sometimes, that a couple of weeks mean a lot of 
messages to catch up to, they wouldn't get so harsch answers. 
The nitpicking on grammar and spelling really scared me though. I 
thought I'd never be able to post anything again.I'm German and my 
English is far from being perfect.
I starteded checking through the messages, and if the tone is very 
harsch or nitpicking, I just don't answer, even if what I have to say, 
might be interesting!

So, Andrea, help the Newbies
Mecki
( I`m sending letter on the main-board too, as well as Off-List ( even 
if it IS OT ;)) and hope to get some reactions




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 12 13:08:21 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:08:21 -0000
Subject: Unfirendly group? Was re:re: ADMIN:re:...
In-Reply-To: <9b44og+mfso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b49c5+1975@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16511

We're friendly! We're fun! We like Newbies! We were all newbies 
ourselves once! Want to see proof? Go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty/files/041101DP.htm
 (or, in the interest of self-embarrassment, go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/message/3523)

If you're a newbie and you're finding it hard to get into the swim of 
things here, come to a chat - they start at 3pm on sundays (eastern 
daylight time) in our chatroom. Don't be paranoid about posting - and 
if someone either points out a bit of canon that disagrees with your 
conclusion then take that for what it is - a different opinion or a 
clarification of "fact", or if someone gives you a gentle nudge to 
the list's Very Frequently Asked Questions page or the Welcoming 
Message, then go read it. It's very enlightening, even to someone 
like me who'se been here for months!
And if someone gives you a  not-so-gentle nudge, onlist or offlist, 
let the moderators know, offlist.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> I was only on the list for 3hours!, had my 3rd Post out, when I got 
my 
> first ruffle, about the topic being discussed in Length before.
> Shocked, I tried to search through the thread and I actually found 
it 
> 3 weeks back, 1100 messages before I entered. I wanted to 
unsubscribe 
> immediatly, but I waited one day, and I got a few really friendly 
> answers to my questions, so I just ignored the unfriendly ones.

I really hope you didn't feel that any posts directed to you were 
unfriendly - that is certainly not the attitude that this list is 
projecting, I hope! Although between your comments and Andrea's, I'm 
afraid that it might be the sensation some people are getting. 
> 
> Anyway, the Newbies need support as much as they can get. So 
perhaps 
> if we remember sometimes, that a couple of weeks mean a lot of 
> messages to catch up to, they wouldn't get so harsch answers. 
The group *does* have a lot of ways for Newbies to get support - all 
the things which are discussed in the Welcoming Message are there 
specifically to enable Newbies to get a grounding in what's going on 
before they jump into the lake and get thrown back into the boat by 
the Giant Squid. 
EVERYONE who joins a mailing list should ALWAYS read that list's 
welcoming message. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm not saying it 
to attack anyone. I'm saying it because after about 10 years of 
participation on internet mailing lists/online clubs, I have realized 
that no two lists have the exact same rules/guidelines/standards/what-
have-yous. And at this list, anyone who asks a question that's 
answered on the Very Frequently Asked Questions List is asking an 
unnecessary question (or if they have absolutely no webview, they 
should email the moderators offlist and ask for the VFAQ to be sent 
to them (and if you haven't read it yet, read it now, or email the 
mods and ask them to send it to you now. They will! They're nice 
people!)) - for your convenience, the VFAQ is at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm. 
I agree - there are a lot of messages on this list, and reading back 
over a few weeks' worth is VERY VERY time consuming. But reading over 
the past 24-36 hours worth won't take *as* much time. And searching 
the message files to see if a *particular* subject has been discussed 
in the past week or two doesn't either. 


> The nitpicking on grammar and spelling really scared me though. I 
> thought I'd never be able to post anything again.I'm German and my 
> English is far from being perfect.

> I starteded checking through the messages, and if the tone is very 
> harsch or nitpicking, I just don't answer, even if what I have to 
say, 
> might be interesting!

I want to point out that in some of our recent discussions, including 
the Ron Character Discussion we've been having this week, the exact 
choice of words made by JKR, and to some extent the exact words used 
by the person posting, are reasonable subjects for discussion, 
definitions and all. If we're going to make conclusions about the 
characters in the books based on certain, specific words chosen by 
JKR (like the use of the words "angry" and "satisfied" to describe 
Ron at the Yule Ball (not to start the thread again! just giving an 
example!)) then thos e*exact* words do matter and can and should be 
picked at. 

Andrea wrote:
> Same day, same moderator barely 
> acknowledges vicious 
> ridiculing of member for her grammar.  Says play nice, but, 
> heh-heh, she's 
> always like that, now we get a cute little acronym. 
Andrea, I am really really honestly confused. I went back to John's 
BE NICE post from that day at Message 15770 and I *cannot* find 
anything in there which I can construe as a bare acknowledgement, or 
any "cute little acronym" created therefrom. If you're still around, 
can you point me to what you're refering to? Maybe I just am not 
searching correctly. I do wish - I *really* wish - that when the 
incident had happened that so troubled you, you had emailed the 
moderators (offlist?) and said so, instead of stewing in silence for 
11 days. 
To be honest, I checked over the archives, and I haven't found a 
mention of the large number of people who joined after we were 
mentioned in Salon all month, although I do acknowledge that when a 
subject that's been discussed ad infinitum AND is mentioned in the 
VFAQ, there are some of us who do a collective sigh, although as I 
understand it, such posts are almost always acknowledged on or off 
list, in some capacity. I know this because I've been the 
acknowledger & pointer myself on many occasions. 




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 13:24:33 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:24:33 -0000
Subject: Ron & 2nd Task
In-Reply-To: <3AD51EEA.A0FE34D0@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9b4aah+vt2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16512

Penny:"I have a very hard time thinking that JKR was sending a direct 
message that Ron is more important to Harry than Hermione.
I disagree quite strongly that this hostage situation makes Hermione 
2nd in Harry's heart.  I think it's a bad idea to go down the road of
wondering which of his 2 best friends is the most important to him..."
They both have important strengths that they bring to him ... so I
always go with the position that they are both equally important to
Harry.  He's 14, so his male best friend is important to him in ways
that Hermione can't fill (she can't talk about Quidditch like Ron 
can and he finds it less fun to be spending so much time in the 
library). By the same token, Hermione has been more loyal to Harry IMO 
and she fills a role that Ron can't (she's the brainiac who finds all 
the spells/curses that he *needs* to use in the 3rd Task (and 
ultimately help keep him alive) for example).  They're both quite 
important to him, and I sure wouldn't want to engage in a debate of 
which one is more important."

As you point out, they're 14. I think Ron *is* number one to Harry -- 
*today*.  That's the point, and why debating who is more important 
doesn't go anywhere.  Who's more important is likely to change 
anytime, and go back-and-forth as well.  Hermione certainly has done 
more for Harry in any kind of practical terms than Ron has -- she's 
his coach and personal trainer.

And Harry has done more for her than he has for Ron.  She might still 
be a bossy little priss if it wasn't that she's discovered the higher 
purpose of keeping Harry in one piece.  She's learning more about 
friendship, loyalty, and courage than she ever would have if she'd 
just been a Ravenclaw. She's grown amazingly in four years.

On the other hand, it's arguable that Ron brings Harry some normalcy 
that he badly needs. Harry's got a buddy, and that goes a long way to 
helping Harry deal with shell shock. And Ron brings Harry into the 
--oh, no, here we go again!! -- OBHWF, which is a treasure to Harry 
beyond gold or jewels.  

What's Harry done for Ron? He's added to Ron's burden finding some 
esteem for himself, with two Head Boys and a Quidditch Captain in the 
family already.  Ron must feel like the guy who towels off Tiger 
Woods's golf bag sometimes, both good and bad.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 13:29:45 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:29:45 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b44b4+360h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ak9+tmls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16513

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
> > > > Forbidden 
> > > > > Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their detention-
> > task. 
> > > > > "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> > > > > This is a very often used punishment in school (especially 
> > > primary, 
> > > > I 
> > > > > belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius 
> Malfoy 
> > > > about 
> > > > > handing out every possible sort of punishment, having Draco 
> > > > discover 
> > > > > them that way and referring to his childhood when speaking 
> > > > > about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is used 
> to 
> > > > > schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going 
to 
> > one 
> > > > > before Hogwarts.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> > > > > /Jennifer
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, 
> mainly 
> > > > because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the 
> > beggining 
> > > at 
> > > > Hogwarts..."
> >  
> > > Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear 
way. 
> i 
> > > was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, 
to 
> > read 
> > > and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids 
attended 
> > any 
> > > such school before Hogwarts. 
> > > Forgive me for causing missunderstandings :)
> > > /Jennifer
> 
> 
> ok :)
> 
> claire
> > 
> > I mentioned something along these lines recently.  I was 
wondering 
> > how all these children are taught the 3RRRs etc.  Either they do 
go 
> > to some form of primary school, are taught by their parents or 
have 
> > private tutors, unless it is somehow all *magicked* into them, 
> which, 
> > I, personally, very much doubt.  Probably a combination of all 
> three 
> > depending on wealth and status etc.  (I wonder if Draco went to a 
> > prep school?  He already seems firmly ensconsced in his little 
> > threesome by the first journey to Hogwarts not to have known 
Crabbe 
> > and Goyle before).
> > 
> > As you seem to imply Jennifer, I think that when Ron talks about 
> > everyone being at the same level, he meant as far as the magical 
> > subjects were concerned, not the basic studying skills they need.
> > 
> > Catherine
> 
> 
> Do you think that (if they did go to school) they go to muggle 
> schools? At the start of PS/SS Ginny begs her mom to let her go to 
> Hogwarts. If they do go to wizarding primary schools would they be 
> taught simple charms? If not, what would be the point in having a 
> wizarding school and not just going to a muggle school?
> 
> 
> claire

Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to attend a 
Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very difficult 
to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their origins etc, 
and it would be very awkward if they were to develop Muggle 
friendships.

As to why they don't learn simple charms - one theory may be that 
Dumbledore wants to make sure that all children start their magical 
education on a similar footing.  It would not be too fair or 
realistic if all the muggleborn children have to play catchup in 
their first year of Hogwarts.  It is probably also likely that they 
need to get to grips with the basic RRRs before Hogwarts, not leaving 
much time for magic studies, and the standard expected seems quite 
high - the level of complicated essays they are given for homework 
bears testament to that.

Catherine




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 13:44:52 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:44:52 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b4ak9+tmls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4bgk+qn3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16514

Claire:
 > Do you think that (if they did go to school) they go to muggle 
schools? At the start of PS/SS Ginny begs her mom to let her go to 
Hogwarts. If they do go to wizarding primary schools would they be 
taught simple charms? If not, what would be the point in having a 
wizarding school and not just going to a muggle school?

Catherine:
> Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to attend 
a Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very 
difficult to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their 
origins etc, and it would be very awkward if they were to develop 
Muggle friendships.

Just look what happened to poor Harry - not even knowing what he was, 
brought up as a muggle, he still managed to turn a teachers hair blue 
and levitate (or something) to the roof of the school. I am surprised 
there weren?t any more fuss about that. Imagin to let loose all the 
wizardingkids of Great Britain (and other parts of the world of 
course... :) in muggleschools, when only four years old for instance, 
demanding them to keep quiet about what they can do (for instance 
with the great bully who threaten them into give him their lunchmoney 
every day...) and to always be wachful of their powers, never letting 
anything (such as dying the teachers wig) slip out. 
I do believe in a Wizarding prep-school, if there?s anyone at all. 
/Jennifer  




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 13:56:29 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:56:29 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b4ak9+tmls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4c6d+h2u2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16515

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > I noticed this comment from Draco (The 
> > > > > Forbidden 
> > > > > > Forest-chapter), when he is informed about their 
detention-
> > > task. 
> > > > > > "...I thought we?d be writing lines or something..."
> > > > > > This is a very often used punishment in school 
(especially 
> > > > primary, 
> > > > > I 
> > > > > > belive), and not at home. As much as I can belive Lucius 
> > Malfoy 
> > > > > about 
> > > > > > handing out every possible sort of punishment, having 
Draco 
> > > > > discover 
> > > > > > them that way and referring to his childhood when 
speaking 
> > > > > > about "writing lines" it could be a sign of that he is 
used 
> > to 
> > > > > > schools and knows their game (and punishment), thus going 
> to 
> > > one 
> > > > > > before Hogwarts.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I?ll just forget the whole thing right... :) Oh well.
> > > > > > /Jennifer
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't believe that there are wizarding primary schools, 
> > mainly 
> > > > > because Ron tells Harry in PS/SS "everyone starts at the 
> > > beggining 
> > > > at 
> > > > > Hogwarts..."
> > >  
> > > > Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear 
> way. 
> > i 
> > > > was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, 
> to 
> > > read 
> > > > and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids 
> attended 
> > > any 
> > > > such school before Hogwarts. 
> > > > Forgive me for causing missunderstandings :)
> > > > /Jennifer
> > 
> > 
> > ok :)
> > 
> > claire
> > > 
> > > I mentioned something along these lines recently.  I was 
> wondering 
> > > how all these children are taught the 3RRRs etc.  Either they 
do 
> go 
> > > to some form of primary school, are taught by their parents or 
> have 
> > > private tutors, unless it is somehow all *magicked* into them, 
> > which, 
> > > I, personally, very much doubt.  Probably a combination of all 
> > three 
> > > depending on wealth and status etc.  (I wonder if Draco went to 
a 
> > > prep school?  He already seems firmly ensconsced in his little 
> > > threesome by the first journey to Hogwarts not to have known 
> Crabbe 
> > > and Goyle before).
> > > 
> > > As you seem to imply Jennifer, I think that when Ron talks 
about 
> > > everyone being at the same level, he meant as far as the 
magical 
> > > subjects were concerned, not the basic studying skills they 
need.
> > > 
> > > Catherine
> > 
> > 
> > Do you think that (if they did go to school) they go to muggle 
> > schools? At the start of PS/SS Ginny begs her mom to let her go 
to 
> > Hogwarts. If they do go to wizarding primary schools would they 
be 
> > taught simple charms? If not, what would be the point in having a 
> > wizarding school and not just going to a muggle school?
> > 
> > 
> > claire
> 
> Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to attend 
a 
> Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very 
difficult 
> to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their origins etc, 
> and it would be very awkward if they were to develop Muggle 
> friendships.
> 
> As to why they don't learn simple charms - one theory may be that 
> Dumbledore wants to make sure that all children start their magical 
> education on a similar footing.  It would not be too fair or 
> realistic if all the muggleborn children have to play catchup in 
> their first year of Hogwarts.  It is probably also likely that they 
> need to get to grips with the basic RRRs before Hogwarts, not 
leaving 
> much time for magic studies, and the standard expected seems quite 
> high - the level of complicated essays they are given for homework 
> bears testament to that.
> 
> Catherine

Lets face it, wouldn't adults just believe that the children were 
just inventing stories?


This isn't "really", but...why do children HAVE to go to school to 
learn the RRR's?

The freindship thing might be a problem i guess....do you think that 
wizarding families have youth clubs where wizard children can go and 
socialise?! now THERES a thought......LOL!

claire




From gmaddox at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 13:57:54 2001
From: gmaddox at hotmail.com (gmaddox at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:57:54 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <9b3ich+n8dg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4c92+5h1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16516

Arabella Figg seems like the best choice for DADA just because I 
don't think Fleur would be a very good teacher.  In the second task, 
Fleur was unable to fend off an attack by Grindylows, which are 
listedn in FB as "harmless, may be domesticated."  This isn't to say 
that she can't be DADA teacher, but she'll probably have a lot to 
learn.  She'd also be likely to have a lot of trouble getting respect 
from Hogwarts students who saw her get beaten by a fourth year in the 
Triwizard tournament.

Not that she'd be the first DADA teacher to have trouble getting 
respect...

Well, back to lurking.

Glenn


> Don't apologize, subjects get repeated. I am glad you reintroduced 
> Arabella Figg as DADA instructor. I mentioned it in Message 15357 
> [March 28th] but did not get many agreements. More people seem to 
> think it may be Fleur. There is alot of room for charactor 
> development. 
> 
> 
> Bugg 
> 
> 
> --- ESJ <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> > If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, 
> what if Arabella Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts 
> teacher in Book Five? Now that Vold. is in power and Dumbledore is 
> starting to round up his posse, I would think that she would be 
there 
> as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to help Harry. 
> > Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, 
> because maybe she's the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's 
> every summer because she's protecting Harry. Perhaps she could be 
> Dumbledore's female counterpart. 
> > 
> > -Erin J.




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 13:58:25 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:58:25 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b4bgk+qn3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ca1+6nnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16517

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> Claire:
>  > Do you think that (if they did go to school) they go to muggle 
> schools? At the start of PS/SS Ginny begs her mom to let her go to 
> Hogwarts. If they do go to wizarding primary schools would they be 
> taught simple charms? If not, what would be the point in having a 
> wizarding school and not just going to a muggle school?
> 
> Catherine:
> > Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to 
attend 
> a Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very 
> difficult to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their 
> origins etc, and it would be very awkward if they were to develop 
> Muggle friendships.
> 
> Just look what happened to poor Harry - not even knowing what he 
was, 
> brought up as a muggle, he still managed to turn a teachers hair 
blue 
> and levitate (or something) to the roof of the school. I am 
surprised 
> there weren?t any more fuss about that. Imagin to let loose all the 
> wizardingkids of Great Britain (and other parts of the world of 
> course... :) in muggleschools, when only four years old for 
instance, 
> demanding them to keep quiet about what they can do (for instance 
> with the great bully who threaten them into give him their 
lunchmoney 
> every day...) and to always be wachful of their powers, never 
letting 
> anything (such as dying the teachers wig) slip out. 
> I do believe in a Wizarding prep-school, if there?s anyone at all. 
> /Jennifer


When did Harry turn a teachers hair blue? Thats i good one...but it 
isn't in my book...

:)

claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:01:30 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:01:30 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary: Priori Incantatem - Brother Wands
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F143Faatao8KK800001c32@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b4cfq+34tp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16518

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> This one made me laugh, er OL.  I suppose the spider would be 
rather annoyed 
> with Harry and he'd have to fight it all over again, just as V's 
victims 
> turn on *him* - though being a dumb animal, it might just turn on 
V...
> Hope I credited this posting right - it gets very confusing 
(especially at 
> this time in the morning) when *all* previous messages are included 
*g*
> 
> >From: clairey at a...
> 
> >
> >
> >kinda boring priori incantatem if it was harrys wand! what we got?
> >
> >
> >spider fighting i guess....
> >stupefy
> >expelliaramus
> >stupefy
> >impedimenta
> >stupefy
> >
> >
> >
> >nowhere near as exiting as mr v's....
> >



Yeah, it would be really funny if it got voldy!

claire :)




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:05:55 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:05:55 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <9b4c92+5h1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4co3+ted2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16519

A fourth year that had A LOT of help, lets not forget that little 
miss flower got stunned through the hedges....but....nah....i dont 
think she will be the next DADA teacher/victim.....be a bit of a 
problem with the whole Veela thing wouldn't there? (!).....


:) claire


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gmaddox at h... wrote:
> Arabella Figg seems like the best choice for DADA just because I 
> don't think Fleur would be a very good teacher.  In the second 
task, 
> Fleur was unable to fend off an attack by Grindylows, which are 
> listedn in FB as "harmless, may be domesticated."  This isn't to 
say 
> that she can't be DADA teacher, but she'll probably have a lot to 
> learn.  She'd also be likely to have a lot of trouble getting 
respect 
> from Hogwarts students who saw her get beaten by a fourth year in 
the 
> Triwizard tournament.
> 
> Not that she'd be the first DADA teacher to have trouble getting 
> respect...
> 
> Well, back to lurking.
> 
> Glenn
> 
> 
> > Don't apologize, subjects get repeated. I am glad you 
reintroduced 
> > Arabella Figg as DADA instructor. I mentioned it in Message 15357 
> > [March 28th] but did not get many agreements. More people seem to 
> > think it may be Fleur. There is alot of room for charactor 
> > development. 
> > 
> > 
> > Bugg 
> > 
> > 
> > --- ESJ <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> > > If someone has brought this up already, please forgive me. But, 
> > what if Arabella Figg was the new Defense Against the Dark Arts 
> > teacher in Book Five? Now that Vold. is in power and Dumbledore 
is 
> > starting to round up his posse, I would think that she would be 
> there 
> > as a teacher to not only help Dumbledore but to help Harry. 
> > > Maybe Mrs. Figg is a much more powerful figure than imagined, 
> > because maybe she's the reason Harry has to stay at the Dursley's 
> > every summer because she's protecting Harry. Perhaps she could be 
> > Dumbledore's female counterpart. 
> > > 
> > > -Erin J.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 14:30:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:30:48 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Fred)
In-Reply-To: <9b3pmi+66em@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4e6o+247r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16520

Ebony wrote:

> >But then again, I'm not hugely protective of either Ron or 
> > animals.  We established this fact in chat.  ;-)

Yeah, but you don't have to be an animal lover or animal rights 
supporter to be appalled by cruelty to animals.  And you don't even 
have to care about cruelty to animals to be appalled by someone 
killing someone's pet.

Catherine wrote:

> Yes, I remember this as well, and I think I suggested that Ron *may* 
> have been joking [about the Puffskein] - kind of sarcastic thing he 
would say.  (And you 
> did admit the possibility Amy!

I'm only too happy to be convinced.  I love Fred.

> 
> On the points above - 
> 1) This is akin telling children in the UK that when they start 
> secondary school they will have their head flushed down the toilet, 
> either on their first day, or their birthday.  I think everyone 
knows 
> that it's not true, and I am sure that Ron would not be stupid 
enough 
> to think that at 11 years old he would have to wrestle with a troll.

Yeah, I think this may be the case.  That's why I considered it the 
least serious of the pranks.  The nice elder-brother thing to do would 
have been to tell him exactly how the Sorting works, but my impression 
was that Ron wasn't seriously worried.

The example you give is horrific, however!  Telling a 6-year-old 
he/she's going to have his head flushed down the toilet really is 
cruel.  Kids that young will believe it and be very frightened.

> 2) Didn't Fred turn Ron's teddy into a spider because Ron had broken 
> his toy broom?  I can't for the life of me find the quote, but I am 
> sure it's in CoS somewhere.  I actually side with Ron on this one.  

Me too, but I'm pretty forgiving of both of them.  They were 3 and 5 
at the time.  It's unfair to blame a 3-year-old for breaking a toy 
broomstick, but it's unfair to blame the 5-year-old for taking 
vengeance, too.  This is in chapter 9 of CoS, BTW.

Fred was 9 at the time of the acid lolly incident--that's getting bad. 

Ebony wrote:

> > We don't hear if Ron ever did anything to the twins or Percy to 
> > provoke these reactions.  There are two sides to every story.  If 
> > Ron's like most younger sibs, then... never mind.

Ah, well, you see, I'm a younger sib with no younger sibs of my own, 
and I was, of course, always the purely innocent victim of my nasty 
older sister . . . lol!

Even with my pro-younger-sib bias, I take your point--we get all these 
stories from Ron.

Catherine wrote:

> I love this quote.  I am a staunch believer in the fact that George 
> and Fred are even more loveable and perhaps even sensitive 
> underneath.  IMO, they are good-natured, kind-hearted people who 
> enjoy a bit of fun, which as Harry admits, is sorely needed.  

I love this passage in PoA (ch 6):

                         ***********************
  "What's up with you, Harry?"
  "Malfoy," said Ron, sitting down on George's other side and glaring 
over at the Slytherin table.
  George looked up in time to see Malfoy pretending to faint with 
terror again.
  "That little git," he said calmly.  "He wasn't so cocky last night 
when the Dementors were down our end of the train.  Came running into 
our compartment, didn't he, Fred?"
  "Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at 
Malfoy.
                        ************************

They continue in this supportive vein for several more lines.  

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 [Quidditch] is, of course, an entirely fictional 
 sport and nobody really plays it.  May I also take
 this opportunity to wish Puddlemere United the best
 of luck next season.
              -Foreword, Quidditch Through the Ages
-----------------------------------------------------




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:33:35 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:33:35 -0000
Subject: Friendliness/Moderation of this list 
In-Reply-To: <9b44ju+q8ai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ebv+b0pt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16521

Re: Recent comments on the moderation of this list, and 
Andrea's 'resignation' letter.
***

Firstly, thanks to Dai and Heidi for their comments.  I am at work 
(er, yes, I do have a life), so I don't have time to respond in full 
to Andrea at the moment, but you have made many of the points I would 
have made.

Heidi is right to point out that there was nothing inappropriate in 
John's recent "be nice" post (as triggered by Rita's comments to 
points made by Echo). I also commented at length on that exchange, so 
I challenge Andrea's view that the criticism of Echo's post 
went "barely acknowledged" by the Moderators.  

Members should be aware that the HPfGU moderators are always willing 
to listen to list members.  If anyone is uncertain about anything or 
wishes to make a point to us (off-list please), one of us will take 
the time to respond.  

With a list of this size, it is possible for us to miss things now 
and then, so we are grateful to those of you who help us out on that 
score by letting us know, off-list.  

I could go on, but I am biting my tongue so hard now that I'm drawing 
blood.  

Neil
Moderator Team





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:33:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:33:41 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b4c6d+h2u2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ec5+1vtf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> Lets face it, wouldn't adults just believe that the children were 
> just inventing stories?

I can't imagine that the wizarding adults would want to risk it, or 
draw attention to their kind.  And it isn't just a case of what 
children might say - it's what the wizarding children might do.  Just 
imagine how much trouble Draco, or even the twins for that matter, 
could cause.  Particularly bearing in mind what Harry achieved quite 
by accident.

> This isn't "really", but...why do children HAVE to go to school to 
> learn the RRR's?

I've already suggested alternatives to school.
Catherine




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 12 14:40:33 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela B)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:40:33 -0000
Subject: Fred & George's bet
Message-ID: <9b4ep1+2sr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16523

I'm rereading GoF, and I have a question. Fred & George bet that 
Ireland would win the World Cup but Viktor Krum would get the snitch, 
and they were correct.

My question - how did they know? They bet their entire savings on an 
unlikely outcome, and these boys are ones who watch their money 
carefully, it seems.

I also have a theory - they've figured out, as this list has 
theorized, that Ron is a Seer. Not much gets by the twins, they may 
have already discovered Ron can See the future, even if he doesn't
know it. So they listened to Ron talk in his sleep, or they asked him 
what he thought would happen, and Ron said, "Ireland will win, of 
course, but Krum gets the Snitch" as a joke.

Thoughts?

Angela





From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 14:41:14 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:41:14 -0000
Subject: Back to Ginny...
Message-ID: <9b4eqa+rb89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16524

I was just reading the posts about Ginny (they were great!), and was 
once again reminded of how much I believe in the H/G ship.  What do 
others think?

Remembering Ginny's sense of humor, sensitivity, loyalty to family and 
Harry made me want more than ever for Harry to develop the same 
feelings for Ginny he had for Cho (she's no good for him, especially 
now that he witnessed the murder of her boyfriend).  I keep imagining 
Harry, at the end of the summer, seeing Ginny again, but differently - 
know what I mean?

By the way, I also noticed how well Ginny handles her crush on Harry.  
In CoS, she is often quite tongue-tied around Harry, but by GoF, she 
is comfortable around him, and, short of blushing when she first sees 
him, acts normally around him.  

I know this has been discussed many, many, MANY times, but I had to 
add my two sickles' worth.

--Jenny from




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:42:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:42:03 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Fred)
In-Reply-To: <9b4e6o+247r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4err+72vb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16525

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> The example you give is horrific, however!  Telling a 6-year-old 
> he/she's going to have his head flushed down the toilet really is 
> cruel.  Kids that young will believe it and be very frightened.

No, they're about 11/12 when they go to secondary school, so don't 
worry too much!  I don't think anyone believes it anyway - I 
certainly didn't!

Catherine




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Apr 12 14:41:58 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:41:58 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Friendly vs Unfriendly; Moderator Roles, Etc.
Message-ID: <3AD5BEB6.F865CF7E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16526

Good morning everyone --

Well, receiving a message like the one from Andrea in my inbox first
thing was really not the best start to my day.  :--)  I started
composing this nearly an hour ago and at this juncture, was about to
say, "And I'm giving up my morning walk to address this."  Then I
thought, "No!  I am *not* giving up my walk for this."  So .... I've had
a refreshing (well, it's *muggy* here so it wasn't all that refreshing)
walk & a shower and feel ready to address some of this in a reasonable
way.

Thanks to Dai & Heidi for chiming in with some perspective of the
"old-timers."

NEWBIES: I personally would *love* to have the time to send each newbie
a warm, personal welcoming message.  But, with 1100 members & growing,
this just isn't feasible.  I care very much if the group is perceived as
an unfriendly place or if the group of old-timers is perceived as
cliquish.  We want this to be friendly and fun for everyone!  There are
some relative newbies who've jumped in with great success, but we do
want it to be easy for everyone. I must admit that I believe it would be
easiest on everyone if the newbies would do their part & be sure & read
the Welcome Message, VFAQs, Netiquette and Acronyms files.

The Moderators have already raised the subject amongst themselves this
morning though of creating a "Moderator for Newbies" position.  This
would be someone who's willing to answer newbie questions, direct them
to the group resources, encourage them to read the VFAQs, etc., act as a
sounding board for their initial forays into discussions, send them a
personal message if they seem to be venturing into already-covered
ground -- essentially be the equivalent of the person who welcomed you
to kindergarten with a plate of warm cookies & a glass of milk.
Ideally, this person would be someone who: (a) has a reasonably long
background with the group -- enough that he/she is familiar with the
Files area, frequently-discussed topics, etc.; (b) has good people
skills; and (c) is on-line & available to answer questions on a very
regular basis.  If you fit the bill & you're interested in acting in
this capacity, please contact the Moderators at
HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.  Even if you believe that you
couldn't devote yourself full-time to this position, let us know if you
would be willing to share duties with another Newbie Moderator.

RULES/POLICING: I must admit that I'm still reasonably confused by
Andrea's message.  On one hand, she seemed to be saying that we the
Moderators care too much about enforcing rules & too little about making
people feel welcome.  OTOH, she also seemed to be arguing that we didn't
do enough to address the post where Rita nitpicked someone's grammar or
the posts where old-timers complain about frequently-raised subjects.
I'm not sure what the balance is really.

Here's my personal perspective though (for what it's worth).  Whatever
the quiz was that correlated your personality to those of the characters
-- I came up with Dumbledore, Hermione, Percy & McGonagall as my top 4
matches.  Hmmm .... I am *clearly* someone who LOVES rules.  I do like
rules; I don't deny it.  I think they bring order & stability to the
environment.  We've gotten alot of messages recently with off-hand
remarks about the Moderators and the "rules" -- the insinuation being
fairly clear that there are people who think we go over-board on the
rules aspect of this list.  My personal belief is that with a group this
large, if there were no rules and no Moderators enforcing anything, it
would dissolve into complete & utter chaos within a week.  The
OT-Chatter group is very active.  If suddenly that were dissolved &
people were told they could post whatever they wanted to the main group,
the message volume would go through the roof.  We'd probably take down
the Yahoo server!  <g>

If you have an opinion about the rules and whether there are too many or
too few, please feel free to email the Moderators at
HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.  We do care about people's
opinions.  Word of caution though: serious responses only (I'm not in
the mood for sarcastic or even joking replies to this when I'm 3 days
away from my due date, nor do I want to go into labor & leave the other
3 moderators with an inbox full of messages of this sort).

That brings me to my next point.  Most everyone here I think does
appreciate the Moderator Group.  But, there are those who seemingly
don't understand what's involved.  You wouldn't believe the number of
messages that we field on a personal level each day (cc'ing each other
so that we don't duplicate responses).  We're happy to do it; that's why
we're Moderators.  But, please recognize that being a Moderator of this
group is a *VOLUNTEER* position -- something that the Moderators are
working into their otherwise busy & fruitful lives.

Finally, I'm about to be taking a sabbatical of sorts with the baby
coming any second now (sometime in the next 10 days or so, you can
expect that I will just disappear -- possibly for weeks.  I don't
know).  Please realize that the other Moderators will be busier than
usual, but please feel free to contact them.  For those of you who don't
know, the Moderators other than myself are:

Jim Flanagan (best person to contact with techie questions) (EST)
John Walton (UK)
Neil Ward (UK)

But, please contact all the Moderators as a group at
HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com (rather than individually).

Thanks for listening and hopefully I haven't offended anyone any
further.  :--)

Penny
The Magical Mod Squad





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 14:43:53 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:43:53 -0000
Subject: Fred & George's bet
In-Reply-To: <9b4ep1+2sr2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ev9+5uc4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16527

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela B" <aboyko at n...> wrote:
> I'm rereading GoF, and I have a question. Fred & George bet that 
> Ireland would win the World Cup but Viktor Krum would get the 
snitch, 
> and they were correct.
> 
> My question - how did they know? They bet their entire savings on 
an 
> unlikely outcome, and these boys are ones who watch their money 
> carefully, it seems.
> 
> I also have a theory - they've figured out, as this list has 
> theorized, that Ron is a Seer. Not much gets by the twins, they may 
> have already discovered Ron can See the future, even if he doesn't
> know it. So they listened to Ron talk in his sleep, or they asked 
him 
> what he thought would happen, and Ron said, "Ireland will win, of 
> course, but Krum gets the Snitch" as a joke.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Angela

I know this has been discussed before, but why do you think that Ron 
is a Seer?




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 12 14:41:09 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:41:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unfirendly group? Was re:re: ADMIN:re:...
References: <9b49c5+1975@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5BE84.D18FA8BA@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16528

Hello All!!!

Okey Dokey, time for a newbie to voice his opinion.

I find everyone on the group to be quite friendly, actually. I had been a member of a Bjork group at one point, and every time I posted, I was told I "didn't love Bjork enough, so why are you posting?" and other such nonsense.

When I first joined HP4GU, I was a little bit hessitant to post anything. But that is a natural feeling. Heres a group with 1000 plus members and I'm just one guy (cute though I may be <g>) why would these people listen? Would they respond?
All that kind of stuff.

So I posted stuff, and went to chat, and read the fanfic on the site. Penny even directed me towards the obsession test (thanx Penny! ::hugs Penny::) even though it was on the FAQ. I had just not seen it before when I read it. I've found
everyone helpful and welcoming, especially during chat.

I've been betaing, joining in discussions, etc. If someone points out a grammar/spelling error, I don't mind too much. Matter of fact, I just take it in stride, and fix the error. I've learnt more about grammar/spelling on this group than in
school. <g> go figure.

Everyone here has their own opinions, their own lives, and their own views on things. It's obvious that some people are going to clash with ideas and opinions. With so many people having so many different opinions, why not listen to them than
view them as a slash against yourself?

The whole point of the group is discussion. If someone responds to your posting, don't take it in a bad way, just accept it for someone elses opinion, and perhaps try to see it from their side. By doing so, you're opening yourself up to new
ideas and thoughts.

So, to sum up, (yes, this posting does have a poing) I thank you all for being so open and friendly towards me. I'm not sucking up, I'm just stating the truth. You've all been wonderful, ready to share opinions and joke around. I think it's
wonderful that a group this large can be so nice to newbies.

Hugs to all,
Jamieson ::who stated his opinion and nothing more::

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> We're friendly! We're fun! We like Newbies! We were all newbies
> ourselves once! Want to see proof? Go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty/files/041101DP.htm
>  (or, in the interest of self-embarrassment, go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/message/3523)
>
> If you're a newbie and you're finding it hard to get into the swim of
> things here, come to a chat - they start at 3pm on sundays (eastern
> daylight time) in our chatroom. Don't be paranoid about posting - and
> if someone either points out a bit of canon that disagrees with your
> conclusion then take that for what it is - a different opinion or a
> clarification of "fact", or if someone gives you a gentle nudge to
> the list's Very Frequently Asked Questions page or the Welcoming
> Message, then go read it. It's very enlightening, even to someone
> like me who'se been here for months!
> And if someone gives you a  not-so-gentle nudge, onlist or offlist,
> let the moderators know, offlist.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > I was only on the list for 3hours!, had my 3rd Post out, when I got
> my
> > first ruffle, about the topic being discussed in Length before.
> > Shocked, I tried to search through the thread and I actually found
> it
> > 3 weeks back, 1100 messages before I entered. I wanted to
> unsubscribe
> > immediatly, but I waited one day, and I got a few really friendly
> > answers to my questions, so I just ignored the unfriendly ones.
>
> I really hope you didn't feel that any posts directed to you were
> unfriendly - that is certainly not the attitude that this list is
> projecting, I hope! Although between your comments and Andrea's, I'm
> afraid that it might be the sensation some people are getting.
> >
> > Anyway, the Newbies need support as much as they can get. So
> perhaps
> > if we remember sometimes, that a couple of weeks mean a lot of
> > messages to catch up to, they wouldn't get so harsch answers.
> The group *does* have a lot of ways for Newbies to get support - all
> the things which are discussed in the Welcoming Message are there
> specifically to enable Newbies to get a grounding in what's going on
> before they jump into the lake and get thrown back into the boat by
> the Giant Squid.
> EVERYONE who joins a mailing list should ALWAYS read that list's
> welcoming message. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm not saying it
> to attack anyone. I'm saying it because after about 10 years of
> participation on internet mailing lists/online clubs, I have realized
> that no two lists have the exact same rules/guidelines/standards/what-
> have-yous. And at this list, anyone who asks a question that's
> answered on the Very Frequently Asked Questions List is asking an
> unnecessary question (or if they have absolutely no webview, they
> should email the moderators offlist and ask for the VFAQ to be sent
> to them (and if you haven't read it yet, read it now, or email the
> mods and ask them to send it to you now. They will! They're nice
> people!)) - for your convenience, the VFAQ is at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm.
> I agree - there are a lot of messages on this list, and reading back
> over a few weeks' worth is VERY VERY time consuming. But reading over
> the past 24-36 hours worth won't take *as* much time. And searching
> the message files to see if a *particular* subject has been discussed
> in the past week or two doesn't either.
>
> > The nitpicking on grammar and spelling really scared me though. I
> > thought I'd never be able to post anything again.I'm German and my
> > English is far from being perfect.
>
> > I starteded checking through the messages, and if the tone is very
> > harsch or nitpicking, I just don't answer, even if what I have to
> say,
> > might be interesting!
>
> I want to point out that in some of our recent discussions, including
> the Ron Character Discussion we've been having this week, the exact
> choice of words made by JKR, and to some extent the exact words used
> by the person posting, are reasonable subjects for discussion,
> definitions and all. If we're going to make conclusions about the
> characters in the books based on certain, specific words chosen by
> JKR (like the use of the words "angry" and "satisfied" to describe
> Ron at the Yule Ball (not to start the thread again! just giving an
> example!)) then thos e*exact* words do matter and can and should be
> picked at.
>
> Andrea wrote:
> > Same day, same moderator barely
> > acknowledges vicious
> > ridiculing of member for her grammar.  Says play nice, but,
> > heh-heh, she's
> > always like that, now we get a cute little acronym.
> Andrea, I am really really honestly confused. I went back to John's
> BE NICE post from that day at Message 15770 and I *cannot* find
> anything in there which I can construe as a bare acknowledgement, or
> any "cute little acronym" created therefrom. If you're still around,
> can you point me to what you're refering to? Maybe I just am not
> searching correctly. I do wish - I *really* wish - that when the
> incident had happened that so troubled you, you had emailed the
> moderators (offlist?) and said so, instead of stewing in silence for
> 11 days.
> To be honest, I checked over the archives, and I haven't found a
> mention of the large number of people who joined after we were
> mentioned in Salon all month, although I do acknowledge that when a
> subject that's been discussed ad infinitum AND is mentioned in the
> VFAQ, there are some of us who do a collective sigh, although as I
> understand it, such posts are almost always acknowledged on or off
> list, in some capacity. I know this because I've been the
> acknowledger & pointer myself on many occasions.
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 14:48:25 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:48:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Friendliness/Moderation of this list 
References: <9b4ebv+b0pt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c0c35f$a1246400$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16529

It's also a big help to have the moderators on the contact list of either
ICQ or Messenger(Yahoo).  I'm not mentioning AOL, but I do know a few have
that as well. (Side note to Simon, send me an ICQ message--I lost your name
in the reformat!)

If you have a question, you just pop it up, see if they're on, and ask away.
I know Neil, Rita, and Penny (when she has the time) are on my list.  I also
see Simon on almost constantly (but he ignores my messages! :(  heehee), and
Carole's on and off.  I'm always hiding myself due to the Porno-Spammers.
It keeps chaotic messages off-list, and helps keep sanity when you're unsure
about this topic or that--ot or main?

I don't know if I helped anyone or not.  I hope so!

Dee




**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 14:50:05 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:50:05 -0000
Subject: What are we here for? (was Re: Compassion for Draco?)
In-Reply-To: <20010412090536.B77C6274E@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9b4fat+t29b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> >> Once again, this is only my opinion, not to be trashed or told 
it's 
> >wrong. OPINION, not fact. Thank you.
> >> ~Echo
> >> *proudly -NOT- a nitpicker*
> >
> >
> >If you are forbidding people to argue with you, you are effectively 
> >discouraging people from responding and interacting with you. 
> >OPINIONS can be wrong - it is the main difference between them and 
> >facts. Personally speaking, I have little interest in opinions that 
> >are stated with no attempt to justify them.
> > 
> >
> >Naama, getting crusty in her old age.. 
> 
> 
> First of all, if you have little interest in my opinion, then why 
reply to it at all when all you're going to do is be rude?
> I never said people can't state their own opinions. I -welcome- 
other perspectives and views. But being trashed because someone 
doesn't like my opinion is NOT okay. Everyone is entitled to their own 
opinions, but also have the right to not have to argue about them. I 
respect other people's opinions, and it's fine with me if they don't 
agree with mine. I'm stating my view, how I perceive things. I'm not 
saying that's how JKR intended to present the character, or that it's 
at all canon. But does that mean I can't have my own opinion, that I 
can't wonder or think beyond what's written blatantly? I should hope 
not.
> ~Echo
> *Once again offended*
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Get your free mail --> http://www.gundamwing.org
> Comprehensive GW info, official info, galleries, translations,
> doujinshi, fanfics, multimedia, music and much much more!

I once again state my agreement with Naama.  I replied to this point 
earlier, Echo.  I will repeat the last point that I made then:  we can 
disagree with each other while remaining agreeable.  Nobody is making 
a personal attack, so please don't feel offended.  You are causing 
yourself unnecessary grief.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 14:53:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:53:09 -0000
Subject: Laughs at a Squib's expense?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104112207290.160-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <9b4fgl+teka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16531

Jen Faulkner wrote:

> I'm not sure I take this passage in precisely the same way as you 
do,
> Amy (and may the gods forgive me for disagreeing with you! *g*). 

Disagreeing with me isn't a sin the last I heard, though I've been 
working on getting that changed <g>.

> When
> Ron justifies laughing about Filch being a Squib by pointing out 
that
> it's Filch he's laughing at, that read to me as though making fun of
> Squibs isn't the 'done thing', that it's terribly gauche to laugh at
> Squibs -- but that the impulse to laugh is there nonetheless.  

Very true.  The question is, is the impulse to laugh coming from 
"Squibs are laughable" or "Filch is a jerk"?

I have to admit it is probably a bit of both.  I lean toward the 
latter, though--the laughter is about something, =anything,= 
embarrassing having come out about this hated, powerful figure.  

Here's a parallel:  laughing at J. Edgar Hoover for being a 
cross-dresser doesn't mean you think there's anything wrong with 
cross-dressing or that you would normally laugh at transvestites.  The 
man was so holier-than-thou, and persecuted so many people for no good 
reason--including being gay or otherwise deviating from sexual 
norms--that this is a particularly ironic foible.  I can picture 
myself playing Ron in this conversation:

"What's a cross-dresser?"
Amy stifled a snigger.  "Well, it's not funny, really--but as it's J. 
Edgar Hoover..."

Now, it's not quite the same with Filch, I admit, because he doesn't 
crack down on students for being weak at magic.  If Snape turned out 
to be a Squib, that would be the ultimate hypocrisy and laughing would 
be more justified.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
   "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing
 Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls."
   "No," Hermione agreed.
                   -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
----------------------------------------------------




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 14:58:19 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:58:19 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b2d7p+jpu9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4fqb+fu7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16532

"Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:

>It's not really in Ron's nature to seek someone out for an apology 
>given his previous history. He didn't rush right off to apologize 
>to Hermione for Crookshanks.

Huh? Will somebody explain to me why Ron should apologize to Hermione.
He had every reason to think that his beloved pet had been eaten by 
Hermione's cat even after she had been repeatedly warned of the 
danger. In this case Ron was 100% in the right Hermione 100% in the 
wrong.
   








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 15:12:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:12:44 -0000
Subject: : Ron Sequitors
In-Reply-To: <20010412061135.54509.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b4glc+b1et@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16533

Penny wrote:
 >1. In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up 
with Hermione. I don't know where >you get half-heartedly out of the 
>language in that scene. He approaches her on his own & quietly >sets 
about trying to make up with her. Ron interrupts that with his loud & 
>mean-spirited comment >about Scabbers.

Kathy wrote:

> Sorry, I still don't buy the idea of Harry's whole-hearted sincerity 
here. As others have pointed out, he willingly participated in giving 
Hermione the cold shoulder, and was only willing to make up with her 
once he got his broomstick back. 

Harry is horrible to Hermione about the Firebolt.  Of all the stupid 
nastinesses flying between members of the Trio in PoA, this is the one 
I find the hardest to forgive.  She is only trying to protect his 
life, and if he would think with some part of his brain not devoted to 
Quidditch for half a second, he would agree that the arrival of an 
extremely expensive, anonymous, potentially deadly gift when a 
murderer is out to get him is mighty suspicious.  I can sympathize 
with his being angry, but not with his giving her the silent treatment 
for weeks.  Ditto on her trying to interfere with his going to 
Hogsmeade (ch 14).  It's Ron, not Harry, who is nasty and unfair in 
response, but Harry just sits back and lets Ron accuse her of trying 
to get Harry expelled.  Sirius Black has just showed up in their dorm 
with a knife--and Hermione's just trying to get Harry expelled?  She 
couldn't perhaps have another motivation for forcing him to stay in 
the castle?

BTW, I found an example of Ron admitting he's wrong:

<Lupin rips into Harry in his excruciatingly quiet way, leaving him 
feeling like crap (he and Ron ought to go apologize to Hermione, who, 
like Lupin, was exasperated that they weren't taking Black 
seriously...but anyway)>

  "It's my fault," said Ron abruptly.  "I persuaded you to go.  
Lupin's right, it was stupid, we shouldn't've done it--" (PoA 14)


> Penny wrote: >Um .... well, we don't know how the hostages were 
chosen. <snip>  I have a very hard >time thinking 
that JKR was sending a direct message that Ron is more important >to 
Harry than Hermione.

Kathy wrote:
> 
> Well, as you probably already know, I strongly disagree on that one. 
I think there is plenty of evidence that Ron would be Harry's 
thing-he-missed-most over Hermione any time. 

Kathy and Jim both leapt to my defense, which makes me feel like a cad 
for saying:  Penny, you're right; I'm convinced; we don't know from 
this that Harry values Ron more than he does Hermione.  (The 
merpeople's song doesn't even say "what you'll miss the most," though 
that's how the student body interprets it--it comes up when people 
tease Hermione for being what Krum would miss most).  Though, like 
Jim, I wouldn't read anything permanent into it if Ron were the most 
important person in Harry's life.  At this moment, after their painful 
period of not talking, it's natural that he is feeling particularly 
attached to Ron.  

Kathy wrote:

> Of course, the question I enjoy pondering is, who would Ron's and 
Hermione's hostages have been? ;)

Oh boy, I'm really going to get kicked off the ship for this:

IMO, Harry would be the hostage for either one of them.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
    "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!"
 said Fred indignantly.
    "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying
 git," said George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
    "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.
                 --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 15:13:22 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:13:22 -0000
Subject: HARRY POTTER'S LAST INTERVIEW
Message-ID: <9b4gmi+hl7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16534

I've written a story, it's about an elderly Harry Potter confesses to 
a murder committed in his youth.

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=242248




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 15:16:47 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:16:47 -0000
Subject: bluehaired teacher (was: Wizarding primary schools again)
In-Reply-To: <9b4ca1+6nnn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4gsv+blbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16535

Me:
>> Just look what happened to poor Harry - not even knowing what he 
was, brought up as a muggle, he still managed to turn a teachers hair 
blue

Claire: 
>> When did Harry turn a teachers hair blue? Thats a good one...but 
it isn't in my book...
:)

HP and the Philosopher?s Stone, chapter 7 (the Sorting Hat), page 
86: "He?d never been more nervous, never, not even when he?d had to 
take a schoolreport home to the Dursleys saying that he?d somehow 
turned his teacher?s wig blue"

There you go :)
/Jennifer




From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 15:19:26 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:19:26 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness, and a little note on forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <9b4fqb+fu7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4h1v+dmsd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> 
> >It's not really in Ron's nature to seek someone out for an apology 
> >given his previous history. He didn't rush right off to apologize 
> >to Hermione for Crookshanks.
> 
> Huh? Will somebody explain to me why Ron should apologize to 
Hermione.
> He had every reason to think that his beloved pet had been eaten by 
> Hermione's cat even after she had been repeatedly warned of the 
> danger. In this case Ron was 100% in the right Hermione 100% in the 
> wrong.

I noted your concern, but hoped you'd scan my original post again for 
the answer--it's #16324 or something around there.  Anyway in brief, 
it wasn't Ron's *anger* I objected to, it was his *vindictiveness* 
that bothered me.  Was I saying Ron should have generously sacrificed 
his rat to Hermione's cat?  No, that's ridiculous and you're quite 
right.  But it's one thing to be angry with your friend and quite 
another to threaten to end your friendship unless your friend 
apologizes on your terms and on your terms only.

Having had to undertake large tasks of forgiveness on my own account, 
I would add that the act of forgiveness is not so much saying that 
what the other person did wasn't so bad after all.  It's more like 
acknowledging the evil as what it is (no more and no less) and then 
bearing the cost of it.  After all, if it was done to *me*, nobody 
but me can bear that cost, right?  No, it's not fair, but nobody said 
forgiveness was fair, whatever Voldemort asserts ("I want thirteen 
years before I forgive you"--how ridiculous).  :)  And, if I refuse 
to forgive a thing, I may be hurting my friend, but I'm hurting 
myself the most, because it's just sitting there on *my* plate not 
going anywhere and making me miserable, while the person who actually 
did the thing has some moments of respite.  Ron's effort to give 
Hermione as few moments of respite as possible is not, as I see it, 
either a healthy or a just way of dealing with the problem.

Lisa




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 12 15:13:07 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:13:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Daily Prophet Classified Ads
References: <9b3a7d+9sv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5C602.52AB5D42@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16537

This ones my fave...

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

>
>
> HELP WANTED
>
> Defense Against the Dark Arts professor for noted secondary school.
> Send resume and cover owl to A. Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts
> School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.  Equal Being Opportunity Employer.
>

I laughed for a good ten minutes. Thaks for the laugh!
Jamieson
--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From arabella at sugarquill.com  Thu Apr 12 15:23:38 2001
From: arabella at sugarquill.com (arabella at sugarquill.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:23:38 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b3acm+9pli@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4h9q+gg2i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16538

eggplant107 at h... wrote:

> >I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a 
> >way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm 
> >sorry",  probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?" 
> 
> And if Harry refused to accept such a weak attempt at reconciliation 
> he would be entirely justified. This was no small thing, Ron in 
> effect was saying he no longer trusted Harry, this deserves an 
> unambiguous "I'm sorry", although Harry would have settled for less.

Well, I think here we're getting into a more personal decision, and 
that is: what kind of apology would you accept vs. what kind of 
apology would I accept.  In that situation, you'd want a little more; 
I'd take any attempt as a sign of things turning around.  Both are 
perfectly fine and your way can definitely be justified.  But the real 
question is, what kind of apology would Harry accept?  We know the 
answer to that.  And (IMO) one reason he accepts it so readily is 
because, as you said, he knows he wasn't a perfect gentleman himself. 
 (At least, I think it was you who said that; forgive me if it wasn't. 
Too many posts and my brain is fried.) Thus I'm still going with the 
idea that there was blame on both ends. Guess we'll have to agree to 
disagree. 
  
> >Your wish that an author should "rewrite" her books simply because 
> >you did not interpret the  written action in the way she intended, 
> >is... not a wish that I can > understand.
> 
> I don't want her to rewrite the book, I think it's fine the way it 
> is, but if she was trying to make Harry look equally responsible for 
> the fight (and despite the interview I find it hard to believe she 
> was) then she failed.

Again, she failed in your opinion.  She succeeded in mine.  
 
> >"Easy going"?  Harry chucked a badge at Ron's  head and said aloud 
> >the words that both of them had been thinking - harsher words 
> >between them, I can't find.  "You might even have a scar 
> > now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?" 
> 
> Ok, you don't have a clue how to fight a dragon but you're about to 
> find out, you are about to hear information that could very well 
save 
> your life but I unintentionally prevent you from hearing it. Would 
> you perhaps be a tad upset with me?

Totally.  I might even chuck a badge. :)  But as I'm not Harry, and as 
I'm an objective observer of these events, I have to take some things 
into consideration.  My natural emotions upon the first read-through 
were first to get angry with Harry, and then to sympathize with Ron.  
I think JKR gives us a clue that she *wants* us to sympathize with 
him, when she paints Ron as a pathetic figure ("But Ron just stood 
there in his too-small pajamas" and earlier on he comes downstairs 
with "several inches of bare ankle showing beneath his pajama 
trousers").  IMO: She's making that scene difficult on us.  She's 
making Ron pitiable there on purpose.  She's pointing out to us that 
Ron's got things going on there - that Ron's coming from a very 
particular place.  And as an objective reader, this reminds me that, 
though these books are (almost) entirely from Harry's PoV, yet there 
are other characters with unseen PoV who are having complex feelings 
of their own and who deserve to be taken into account.  Of course we 
feel for Harry at that moment, we know *exactly* what he's going 
through and so are willing to forgive him his blunt actions.  I guess 
I'm just willing to make an attempt to understand Ron there as well, 
because I think that's really what JKR wanted her readers to do. 

~Arabella




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 16:02:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:02:09 -0000
Subject: Ron/Harry fight
In-Reply-To: <9b4h9q+gg2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4ji1+95sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16539

Arabella wrote:

> I think JKR gives us a clue that she *wants* us to sympathize with 
> him, when she paints Ron as a pathetic figure ("But Ron just stood 
> there in his too-small pajamas" and earlier on he comes downstairs 
> with "several inches of bare ankle showing beneath his pajama 
> trousers").  IMO: She's making that scene difficult on us.  She's 
> making Ron pitiable there on purpose.  She's pointing out to us that 
> Ron's got things going on there - that Ron's coming from a very 
> particular place.  

Good point.  I think she is also letting us know that Harry notices 
this; it's his POV that sees Ron this way, after all.  He lies awake 
for so long not only because he's angry at Ron, worried about Sirius, 
and terrified of the dragon, but because he feels sad and guilty that 
at a moment that Ron was making an overture of reconciliation, he 
(Harry) was in no shape to accept it, and blew the opportunity.  This 
is all speculation on my part, but that's how I would have been 
feeling.  The "too-small pajamas," and even more, the "Ron just stood 
there," awaken sympathy--Harry's as well as ours.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "What is this thing?" said Moody, drawing the Marauder's Map out 
 of his pocket and unfolding it.
   "Map of Hogwarts," said Harry. . . .
   "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical 
 eye going haywire.  "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" 
   "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. 
                                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 16:39:48 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: : Ron Sequitors
In-Reply-To: <9b4glc+b1et@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010412163948.60846.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16540

> <Lupin rips into Harry in his excruciatingly quiet way, leaving him
> feeling like crap (he and Ron ought to go apologize to Hermione,
> who, like Lupin, was exasperated that they weren't taking Black 
> seriously...but anyway)>

I really like that part of PoA because it comes immediately after
Lupin has rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office.  Snape pretty
much tells Harry the same thing Lupin does: a lot of people are
running around protecting your hide, Potter, but you don't seem to
appreciate it; get with it, all right?

Snape's inability to make himself understood or to realize how he
comes across is so integral to his character.  His outburst of
frustration in the shrieking shack when Harry doesn't respond with
the proper gratitude is wonderful.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Apr 12 17:03:23 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:03:23 -0000
Subject: Fred & George's bet
In-Reply-To: <9b4ep1+2sr2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4n4r+8f7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16541

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela B" <aboyko at n...> wrote:
> I'm rereading GoF, and I have a question. Fred & George bet that 
> Ireland would win the World Cup but Viktor Krum would get the 
snitch, 
> and they were correct.
> 
> My question - how did they know? They bet their entire savings on an 
> unlikely outcome, and these boys are ones who watch their money 
> carefully, it seems.
> 
> I also have a theory - they've figured out, as this list has 
> theorized, that Ron is a Seer. Not much gets by the twins, they may 
> have already discovered Ron can See the future, even if he doesn't
> know it. So they listened to Ron talk in his sleep, or they asked 
him 
> what he thought would happen, and Ron said, "Ireland will win, of 
> course, but Krum gets the Snitch" as a joke.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 

It's also possible that, like regular sports fans, they just watched 
both teams in their progress toward the Cup, and compared stats -- and 
knew that Bulgaria had the better Seeker, although Ireland had the 
better chaser.

Sometimes it doesn't require magic to predict an outcome! 

*giggle*

Imagine that.

Indigo
> Angela




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 17:04:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:04:12 -0000
Subject: Fred andGeorge thoughts.
In-Reply-To: <9b3pmi+66em@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4n6c+dcrs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> I love this quote.  I am a staunch believer in the fact that George 
> and Fred are even more loveable and perhaps even sensitive 
> underneath.  IMO, they are good-natured, kind-hearted people who 
> enjoy a bit of fun, which as Harry admits, is sorely needed.  Even 
in 
> their very first scene they help an (as yet) unknown first year 
onto 
> the train with his trunk.  How many other people would bother?  I 
> also love the scene when they rescue Harry from the Dursleys' house 
> in CoS.  I know they are trying to get around Molly, but "They were 
> starving him, Mum!" (George) gets me everytime.
> They are also almost always supportive of Harry, with the exception 
> of when he loses the house points in PS.  Remember in Cos when 
Harry 
> is relieved that Fred and George think it so ridiculous that Harry 
is 
> Slytherin's Heir, that they spend all their time making fun of 
> it?  "Make way, Heir of Slytherin coming through!" (paraphrase).
> IMO, Fred and George use their humour and pranks to show how they 
> actually feel about things, but have the sense to know (as in the 
> scene above) when it is not appropriate.
> Catherine

I agree, Fred and George are mischeivous but they do have a "softer" 
side. Fred and George were the ones who lead Ginny into the woods 
during the Dark Mark thing in GoF. Fred and George attempted to send 
Harry a toilet seat during Harry's hospitalization in SS/PS. 

Another thing is that they have wonderfully analytical minds! They 
figured out how to use the Marauder's Map. They developed all those 
joke wands and candies. No wonder Molly is upset with them: they have 
the smarts but they don't use it for academics. I think their World 
Cup prediction is a result of their analytical thought processes. 
They were probably able to work out the most likely scenarios of the 
match by examining the strengths and weaknesses of both teams.

;-)Milz




From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 17:04:21 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:04:21 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to Ginny...
Message-ID: <a3.1444a081.28073a17@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16543

In a message dated Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:43:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes:

<< I was just reading the posts about Ginny (they were great!), and was 
once again reminded of how much I believe in the H/G ship.  What do 
others think? >>

Well, this is just my opinion and my own messed up ideas about how JKR will include more of Ginny into the next set of books, but I think that when Riddle took over Ginny's soul in CoS, there was a connection formed between them (like the one between Voldemort and Harry).  I do think Voldemort will know, (if he doesn't already) about Riddle and the diary and will use that to try at Potter again, this time through Ginny somehow.  It's the perfect set up (the way my distorted burned-out mind sees it)--she's in love with Harry, and Voldemort now has a link set with each of them, he could use one against the other.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor 



From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Apr 12 17:11:15 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:11:15 -0000
Subject: Ron's stubbornness
In-Reply-To: <9b4fqb+fu7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4njj+6m37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> 
> >It's not really in Ron's nature to seek someone out for an apology 
> >given his previous history. He didn't rush right off to apologize 
> >to Hermione for Crookshanks.
> 
> Huh? Will somebody explain to me why Ron should apologize to 
Hermione.
> He had every reason to think that his beloved pet had been eaten by 
> Hermione's cat even after she had been repeatedly warned of the 
> danger. In this case Ron was 100% in the right Hermione 100% in the 
> wrong.

It's not a 100% thing either way.

And Ron could just as easily got himself a cage for Scabbers, like 
Harry has for Hedwig in the off season if he was that worried about 
Crookshanks eating Scabbers.

But the reason Ron owed her an apology (to my mind) is because he was 
unnecessarily nasty to her.

And Hermione's actions, though outwardly appalling, were those of 
someone who is excited to *finally* have a pet of her very own (her 
two best friends in the world have had theirs for two years).  She 
probably believed Ron was just on again about having a hand-me-down.

This is not to say Hermione didn't owe Ron an apology too.

But you have to remember they're both kids, and kids are not always 
worldly in knowledge of what makes other people tick.

They both acted meanly toward the other, and they both thought their 
own position was right and that the other one was overreacting.

Friendships survive better on compromise than inflexibility, hey?

Indigo





From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 12 17:29:26 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:29:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron & 2nd Task
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010412172926.006a4bd8@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16545


I think that it is also important to remember that the egg says "We've taken
what you'll sorely miss," (GOF pg 463). It doesn't say that they've taken
what is the most important to the champion. I agree with Penny, that JKR
isn't trying to say that Ron is more important then Hermione to Harry. But
the case may be that Harry would miss Ron more, but Hermione is more
important to him... I don't think that it really matters, and I hope that
the trio doesn't get to analyze their lives as much as we do. Wouldn't be
very happy for Hermione to get upset with Harry because he likes Ron more
then her. :-)

-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 17:31:49 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:31:49 -0000
Subject: Ron/Harry fight
In-Reply-To: <9b4ji1+95sv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4oq5+o2eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16546

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Arabella wrote:
> 
> > I think JKR gives us a clue that she *wants* us to sympathize 
with 
> > him, when she paints Ron as a pathetic figure ("But Ron just 
stood 
> > there in his too-small pajamas" and earlier on he comes 
downstairs 
> > with "several inches of bare ankle showing beneath his pajama 
> > trousers").  IMO: She's making that scene difficult on us.  She's 
> > making Ron pitiable there on purpose.  She's pointing out to us 
that 
> > Ron's got things going on there - that Ron's coming from a very 
> > particular place.  
> 
> Good point.  I think she is also letting us know that Harry notices 
> this; it's his POV that sees Ron this way, after all.  He lies 
awake 
> for so long not only because he's angry at Ron, worried about 
Sirius, 
> and terrified of the dragon, but because he feels sad and guilty 
that 
> at a moment that Ron was making an overture of reconciliation, he 
> (Harry) was in no shape to accept it, and blew the opportunity.  
This 
> is all speculation on my part, but that's how I would have been 
> feeling.  The "too-small pajamas," and even more, the "Ron just 
stood 
> there," awaken sympathy--Harry's as well as ours.
> 
> Amy Z
> 

I was re-reading those chapters last night. I can't cite chapter and 
verse, but in one of those chapters, Ron and Harry are in Divination 
class and Trelawney is lecturing on how people born in July suffer 
horrible deaths. Harry makes a sarcastic off-the -cuff comment. Ron 
begins to smile and Harry catches Ron's eye. But Harry turns away. 

Ron attempts to apologize after the first task, but Harry doesn't see 
the need and tells Ron to "forget it". I posted that section a couple 
of days ago. It could be because he's in no physical shape or maybe 
because he knows Ron is sorry?

:-)Milz




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 17:56:34 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <9b2tnj+98pj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010412175634.15946.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16547

--- Jim Ferer <jferer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good question. Why didn't Harry write to Dumbledore?
> Or both Sirius 
> and Dumbledore? 

When Harry's thinking about who to tell about his
dream, he thinks of Dumbledore.  But he thinks that it
sounds stupid to just write him and say "Sorry to
trouble you, but my scar hurt this morning.  Just
thought you'd like to know."  He has an excuse to
write Sirius already and throw the thing about the
scar in.



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Apr 12 18:08:30 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:08:30 -0500
Subject: Ron & the 2nd Task
References: <20010412061135.54509.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5EF1D.B7378FA7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16548

Hi --

Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee wrote:

> I wrote: >Um .... well, we don't know how the hostages were chosen. We don't know that Hermione wasn't already Krum's hostage >when it came time to decide who Harry's hostage should be. I really think it was >ultimately a plot device to be sure that 3 people that >Harry cares about were hostages; I have a very hard >time thinking that JKR was sending a direct message that Ron is more important >to Harry than Hermione.
>
> Kathy said: Well, as you probably already know, I strongly disagree on that one. I think there is plenty of evidence that Ron would be Harrys thing-he-missed-most over Hermione any time. But thats already been argued and argued, so anyone who wants to go into that can check the archives. What I would like to say, however, is that I think Hermione would know thisand I dont think she would be angry or feel slighted by this, as some have suggested. I think she would be happy for Ron, I really do.

Rose raises the good point that the egg doesn't say that the merpeople are taking what's "most important."  It's taking something that the champion "will sorely miss."

I still disagree that it's a good idea to try & decide which of 2 best friends is ultimately the most important to Harry.  I don't think it's possible for one thing.  It is quite possible to have more than one "best" friend & be unable to say definitively that when push comes to shove, Friend A is a smidge "more important" to you than Friend B is.

In any case, I think Harry himself has answered that question for us -- take a look at what happens down in the Lake & what Harry says:

____________________________________

He began to hack at the ropes binding Ron, and after several minutes' hard work, they broke apart. ......"

Harry looked around.  There was no sign of any of the other champions.  What were they playing at?  Why didn't they hurry up?  He turned back to Hermione, raised the jagged rock, and began to hack at her bindings too --

At once, several pairs of strong gray hands seized him.  Half a dozen mermen were pulling him away from Hermione, shaking their green-haired heads, and laughing.

"You take your own hostage," one of them said.  "Leave the others ....."

"No way!" said Harry furiously -- but only two large bubbles came out.

"Your task is to retrieve your own friend .... leave the others ...."

"SHE'S my friend too!"  Harry yelled, gesturing toward Hermione.

_______________________________

If asked point-blank, I suspect he'd look at you like you were crazy and say more or less what he does above, "They're *both* my friends; they're *both* important to me."

*I* like Hermione loads better than Ron, but I don't think Harry does.  I think they are his two equally-important best friends.  He wouldn't choose between them down in the Lake, and I doubt he'd choose any differently above-ground under normal circumstances.

Penny





From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 18:12:57 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:12:57 -0000
Subject: Fred andGeorge thoughts.
In-Reply-To: <9b4n6c+dcrs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4r79+67kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16549

 
> 
> Another thing is that they have wonderfully analytical minds! They 
> figured out how to use the Marauder's Map. They developed all those 
> joke wands and candies. No wonder Molly is upset with them: they 
have 
> the smarts but they don't use it for academics. 
> 
> ;-)Milz

I absolutely agree with you, Milz.  Fred and George are jokers, but 
damned good at what they do.  They've achieved magic far beyond their 
years at Hogwarts, IMO.  I've mentioned this before, but I'd love to 
see Fred and George have a more serious adventure with Harry before 
they leave Hogwarts.  We have seen their more serious side at the end 
of GoF, when they hexed Draco and cronies, and we know that they can 
quite capably defend themselves.

I've also wondered if there is more to the two of them than just 
jokes.  JKR, as we well know by now, gives several sides to nearly 
every character.  What might Fred and George *mean* beyond their 
senses of humor and canary creams




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 18:20:03 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:20:03 -0000
Subject: Back to Ginny...
In-Reply-To: <a3.1444a081.28073a17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b4rkj+kr3a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16550


> 
> Well, this is just my opinion and my own messed up ideas about how 
JKR will include more of Ginny into the next set of books, but I think 
that when Riddle took over Ginny's soul in CoS, there was a connection 
formed between them (like the one between Voldemort and Harry).  I do 
think Voldemort will know, (if he doesn't already) about Riddle and 
the diary and will use that to try at Potter again, this time through 
Ginny somehow.  It's the perfect set up (the way my distorted 
burned-out mind sees it)--she's in love with Harry, and Voldemort now 
has a link set with each of them, he could use one against the other.
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor

Good one!  I've wondered as well if *something* was left in Ginny 
after her ordeal with Tom Riddle, but you put it words better than I 
could.  Perhaps Ginny has been set up in a way to be controlled again 
(Imperius Curse, maybe) when needed by Voldie.  I hate to think that, 
though




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Apr 12 18:28:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:28:19 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Fanfic Plugs must go to Announcements
References: <9b4gmi+hl7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5F3C3.47336005@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16551

Hi --

Me again with more of those tiresome rules.  Plugging a fanfic that
you've written is great, but we're asking that this be done only on the
HPFU-Announcements group.  This is a reminder to everyone!

Thanks --

Penny

eggplant107 at hotmail.com wrote:

> I've written a story, it's about an elderly Harry Potter confesses to
> a murder committed in his youth.
>
> http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=242248
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 19:00:29 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:00:29 -0000
Subject: Back to Ginny...
In-Reply-To: <9b4rkj+kr3a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4u0d+10h7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16552

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well, this is just my opinion and my own messed up ideas about how 
> JKR will include more of Ginny into the next set of books, but I 
think 
> that when Riddle took over Ginny's soul in CoS, there was a 
connection 
> formed between them (like the one between Voldemort and Harry).  I 
do 
> think Voldemort will know, (if he doesn't already) about Riddle and 
> the diary and will use that to try at Potter again, this time 
through 
> Ginny somehow.  It's the perfect set up (the way my distorted 
> burned-out mind sees it)--she's in love with Harry, and Voldemort 
now 
> has a link set with each of them, he could use one against the 
other.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Paula
> > Gryffindor
> 
> Good one!  I've wondered as well if *something* was left in Ginny 
> after her ordeal with Tom Riddle, but you put it words better than I 
> could.  Perhaps Ginny has been set up in a way to be controlled 
again 
> (Imperius Curse, maybe) when needed by Voldie.  I hate to think 
that, 
> though

Her ordeal with Riddle definitely did affect her. In PoA, she was pale 
and shaking after the Dementor came into their train compartment. She 
didn't pass out like Harry, but she was affected more than Hermione, 
Ron and Neville. 

:-)Milz




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 19:03:42 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:03:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding primary schools again
References: <9b4ak9+tmls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5FC0E.4585839D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16553

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> As to why they don't learn simple charms - one theory may be that
> Dumbledore wants to make sure that all children start their magical
> education on a similar footing.

A question (which might be based on another Flint). I am totally not
remembering where the whole "teddy turned into spider" scene is, at all,
so I may have my facts off, but if Ron was three when Fred (or George,
can't remember, apologies) turned his teddy into a spider, they were
only four or five. So I'm inferring from this that wizarding children
*do* dabble in magic, but they're not formally schooled until Hogwarts.

Any thoughts? Did I get ages wrong or anything? I can't believe I can't
remember where that *is*....

--Amanda, losing brain cells by the day, seems like


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 19:06:25 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:06:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Arabella Figg
References: <9b4c92+5h1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD5FCB1.B2682F22@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16554

gmaddox at hotmail.com wrote:

> Arabella Figg seems like the best choice for DADA just because I don't
> think Fleur would be a very good teacher.

Has JKR said anywhere that she's going to use a previously encountered
character for her female DADA teacher? Or was it just that a DADA
teacher in future would be female? I've only seen a fraction of the
extracanonical JKR stuff (wow, what a word! Maybe not all the brain
cells are dying out!), and I'm not sure.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 19:12:14 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:12:14 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <3AD5FCB1.B2682F22@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b4ume+gaic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16555

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> gmaddox at h... wrote:
> 
> > Arabella Figg seems like the best choice for DADA just because I 
don't
> > think Fleur would be a very good teacher.
> 
> Has JKR said anywhere that she's going to use a previously 
encountered
> character for her female DADA teacher? Or was it just that a DADA
> teacher in future would be female? I've only seen a fraction of the
> extracanonical JKR stuff (wow, what a word! Maybe not all the brain
> cells are dying out!), and I'm not sure.
> 
> --Amanda

I think she only said that there will be a female DADA teacher in the 
future. I remember reading fan speculation that it might be Fleur due 
to her parting words to Harry in GoF that she wanted to get a job at 
Hogwarts to improve her English.

;-)Milz




From gmaddox at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 19:21:50 2001
From: gmaddox at hotmail.com (gmaddox at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:21:50 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <3AD5FCB1.B2682F22@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b4v8e+b563@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16556

> Has JKR said anywhere that she's going to use a previously 
encountered
> character for her female DADA teacher? Or was it just that a DADA
> teacher in future would be female? I've only seen a fraction of the
> extracanonical JKR stuff (wow, what a word! Maybe not all the brain
> cells are dying out!), and I'm not sure.

That's a good point.  I really only meant that between the two, I 
thought Arabella Figg would be the better choice (mainly because 
Fleur seems like a weaker choice).  I should have said the better 
choice instead of the best.  It would be kind of funny, though, to 
see how the Hogwarts boys did with a Veela as a teacher - and how 
the Hogwarts girls did with all the boys completely distracted. :)

Glenn




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 19:32:39 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:32:39 -0000
Subject: Other Weasleys (Percy, Fred)
In-Reply-To: <9b30kp+4gne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b4vsn+fog0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16557

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Percy is the victim of a very slanted POV:  Ron dislikes him, and we 
> get a lot of our information about Percy via Ron.  If you go through 
> and look at the negative portrayals of Percy, they are often 
filtered 
> through a comment of Ron's as well as through Harry's POV.  I wonder 
> what we would think of Percy if we saw him through, say, Bill's 
eyes.

I don't know. In SS, Harry is watching the Weasley's from the train 
and the description of Percy is a bit arrogant. By the time they are 
sorted and Percy is leading them up to the Tower, the description of 
Percy is still a bit arrogant and authorative. I think we see Percy 
through Harry's eyes the majority of the time. Like in PoA, when Percy 
greets and shakes Harry's hand with an unusual degree of formality. 
Harry has to keep from laughing. I think Harry sees Percy as is.

:-)Milz




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 19:39:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:39:43 -0500
Subject: Snape again (was Ron Sequitors)
References: <20010412163948.60846.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD6047E.741E6400@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16558

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> > <Lupin rips into Harry in his excruciatingly quiet way, leaving him
> > feeling like crap (he and Ron ought to go apologize to Hermione,
> > who, like Lupin, was exasperated that they weren't taking Black
> > seriously...but anyway)>
>
> I really like that part of PoA because it comes immediately after
> Lupin has rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office.  Snape pretty
> much tells Harry the same thing Lupin does: a lot of people are
> running around protecting your hide, Potter, but you don't seem to
> appreciate it; get with it, all right?

Tremedous observation! I had never really realized that, but you're
right.

> Snape's inability to make himself understood or to realize how he
> comes across is so integral to his character.  His outburst of
> frustration in the shrieking shack when Harry doesn't respond with the
> proper gratitude is wonderful.

I think it's partly because he's so internal. I've always gotten the
feeling that he has a very strict personal code of ethics, but it's just
that---personal. He seems to make no effort to conform to anyone else's
view of what is appropriate. His actions are based on his own judgement,
and he doesn't bother to explain himself. Since he is so very immersed
in his own viewpoint, he probably thinks it's obvious.

On a sort-of-related note, I have wondered about the effect (once Snape
has had some time to process things and isn't simply reacting) of
Harry's question to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, "So that's why Snape
doesn't like you? He thinks you were in on the joke?" [paraphrase].
Snape simply might not believe Lupin was giving Harry the complete
truth, but in Lupin's version, it was all Sirius' joke, and he and James
were not part of it. This means that some of the anger Snape's been
carrying around for years is unfounded--if Snape accepts what Lupin
says.

So I've been looking forward to some Snape development. If this is
touched upon again, it'll be revealing to see if Snape behaves
differently, or if he simply figured Lupin was "sugarcoating" for James'
kid and to spare himself. I get the feeling Snape doesn't lie to himself
much. But he also doesn't apologize (much like my dad)--I think if he
does alter his view, he'll simply alter it and proceed from that point,
without wasting any time re-examining past actions. That seems to be his
style; the new method of proceeding is supposed to be acknowledgement
enough. [May I add that I got along much better with my father once I,
too, was an adult and could understand this?]

Along those lines, I've noticed that a set of words frequently
associated with Snape is "stepped forward." I've been meaning to go
through the books and compile how often this particular phrasing is used
for Snape, and in what settings. I think it underlines this perception
of him that I've got, about the just moving on and not wasting time with
recrimination.

Thoughts?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 19:40:47 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:40:47 -0000
Subject: Friendliness/Moderation of this list
In-Reply-To: <9b4ebv+b0pt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b50bv+jdgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16559

I just wanted to throw in my two bits as well:

I think the moderator team is doing a fine job creating order in a 
group that is growing by leaps and bounds every day. I appreciate what 
you guys have done, and if I can help out in any way, let me know. I 
too have a life, but if I can help lessen your work load, I would love 
to pitch in.

One point I want to make on the subject of "friendliness": It is 
ALWAYS easier to get to know people and to get a response to your 
message when a group is fairly modest in size and everyone is new. 
Joining a group has been growign this fast (when even us oldies are 
struggling to keep up with everything that is being discussed and 
every new face that pops in) can be really daunting. It is like coming 
to a party late after everyone has already been hanging out and 
talking, and has chosen their dance partners for the evening. It is 
hard to stand out or to find a way in. I don't think it is fair to 
call this "unfriendliness". Have faith and keep at it-- you WILL find 
your niche!!

I love this group. It is lovely to know that there are 1100 other 
people out there who are as obsessed as I am!!


Suzanne 
House: Gryffindor
Wand: Pussy Willow with a Thunderbird feather core.

(BTW I am inviting all Boston-based HP fans to meet for a pint of 
butterbeer at tThe Green Dragon on April 29th! Email me offlist for 
details....)




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 19:53:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:53:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Arabella Figg
References: <20010411204406.28864.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD607A5.6FABC3AE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16561

ESJ wrote:

> Also, my friend pointed this out this morning, Mrs. Figg must have
> known that Harry was a wizard, but how come she never really acted as
> excited as the other wizards and witches in the community about Harry?

It's been proposed that Arabella Figg was actually living near the
Dursleys "on assignment," keeping an eye on Harry. My guess is that, if
this were true, she didn't act excited for the same reason she never
said anything about his past or "what he was" to him....it was the
Dursley's place to do that, they were his family (how could she know how
badly they treated him?). Also, if she was supposed to be incognito
(which is the only thing I can imagine her being, since the Dursleys
allowed her to keep Harry), she really *couldn't* say anything.

I'm rambling. Sorry. Did it make sense?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 19:58:31 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:58:31 -0000
Subject: Professor Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <9b4v8e+b563@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b51d8+r6p5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16562

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gmaddox at h... wrote:
in response to Amandas post which said:
> > Has JKR said anywhere that she's going to use a previously 
> encountered
> > character for her female DADA teacher? Or was it just that a DADA
> > teacher in future would be female? I've only seen a fraction of 
the
> > extracanonical JKR stuff (wow, what a word! Maybe not all the 
brain
> > cells are dying out!), and I'm not sure.
> 
> That's a good point.  I really only meant that between the two, I 
> thought Arabella Figg would be the better choice (mainly because 
> Fleur seems like a weaker choice

I also dont think Fleur would make much of a DADA professor, although 
I am reminded of some previous speculation on the group of what a 
Hogwarts Sex Ed class might be like, and I think Fleur might be a 
natural to teach that.  But, actually, Fleur only says that she wants 
to *get a job here to help improve her English* (I am paraphrasing).  
How do we know that *here* means Hogwarts?  She might just mean that 
she wants to get a job in the UK.  I think she would do pretty well 
serving drinks at the Leaky Cauldron, or gift-wrapping the books at 
Flourish & Blotts.

Oh, and use of words like *extracanonical* get you an extra 10 points 
on your L.O.O.N. (League of Obsessed Nitpickers) entrance exam, 
although as Amanda is a founding member, she hardly needs the points.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 19:58:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:58:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] : Ron Sequitors
References: <20010412061135.54509.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AD608F8.31AC33D5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16563

Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee wrote:

> >The scene in GoF with his dress robes is played for laughs, but it's
> >heartwrenching for a teenager to be wearing loser clothes, and
> >especially to a big event like the Yule Ball. Yes, he was a jerk at
> >the Ball, but why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't look
> >to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes
> >lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she
> >looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.
>
> Oh, what a wonderful observation, Rosmerta! True, Harry doesnt spend too much time thinking about how Ron must feel in this situation, but youre rightyou can bet that Ron notices.

I think Harry notices just fine. The only condition he puts on Fred and George at the end of GoF, when he gives them the prize money, is that they get Ron a new set of dress robes.

--Amanda




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 20:05:00 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:05:00 -0000
Subject: Snape again (was Ron Sequitors)
In-Reply-To: <3AD6047E.741E6400@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b51pc+gh5j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16564

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > > <Lupin rips into Harry in his excruciatingly quiet way, leaving 
him
> > > feeling like crap (he and Ron ought to go apologize to Hermione,
> > > who, like Lupin, was exasperated that they weren't taking Black
> > > seriously...but anyway)>
> >
> > I really like that part of PoA because it comes immediately after
> > Lupin has rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office.  Snape pretty
> > much tells Harry the same thing Lupin does: a lot of people are
> > running around protecting your hide, Potter, but you don't seem to
> > appreciate it; get with it, all right?
> 
> Tremedous observation! I had never really realized that, but you're
> right.
> 
> > Snape's inability to make himself understood or to realize how he
> > comes across is so integral to his character.  His outburst of
> > frustration in the shrieking shack when Harry doesn't respond 
with the
> > proper gratitude is wonderful.
> 
> I think it's partly because he's so internal. I've always gotten the
> feeling that he has a very strict personal code of ethics, but it's 
just
> that---personal. He seems to make no effort to conform to anyone 
else's
> view of what is appropriate. His actions are based on his own 
judgement,
> and he doesn't bother to explain himself. Since he is so very 
immersed
> in his own viewpoint, he probably thinks it's obvious.
> 
> On a sort-of-related note, I have wondered about the effect (once 
Snape
> has had some time to process things and isn't simply reacting) of
> Harry's question to Lupin in the Shrieking Shack, "So that's why 
Snape
> doesn't like you? He thinks you were in on the joke?" [paraphrase].
> Snape simply might not believe Lupin was giving Harry the complete
> truth, but in Lupin's version, it was all Sirius' joke, and he and 
James
> were not part of it. This means that some of the anger Snape's been
> carrying around for years is unfounded--if Snape accepts what Lupin
> says.
> 
> So I've been looking forward to some Snape development. If this is
> touched upon again, it'll be revealing to see if Snape behaves
> differently, or if he simply figured Lupin was "sugarcoating" for 
James'
> kid and to spare himself. I get the feeling Snape doesn't lie to 
himself
> much. But he also doesn't apologize (much like my dad)--I think if 
he
> does alter his view, he'll simply alter it and proceed from that 
point,
> without wasting any time re-examining past actions. That seems to 
be his
> style; the new method of proceeding is supposed to be 
acknowledgement
> enough. [May I add that I got along much better with my father once 
I,
> too, was an adult and could understand this?]
> 
> Along those lines, I've noticed that a set of words frequently
> associated with Snape is "stepped forward." I've been meaning to go
> through the books and compile how often this particular phrasing is 
used
> for Snape, and in what settings. I think it underlines this 
perception
> of him that I've got, about the just moving on and not wasting time 
with
> recrimination.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> --Amanda

I always thought Snape lacked good interpersonal communications 
skills. I definitely wouldn't want him as my boss..especially during 
the job evaluation time!

I also think he's frustrated. Over what exactly I can't say, but it 
affects how he interacts with the students. I speculate that he 
played a very important role for 'Our Side' during the Voldy years. 
But, his employment as a 'spy', prohibited any acknowledgement for 
his efforts. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we'll be able to 
read about it in the future books.

:-)Milz





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Apr 12 20:11:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:11:12 -0000
Subject: Horrible Thought!
Message-ID: <9b5250+8776@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16565

Warning: not to be read by the faint-hearted.


I just had a horrible thought. What if something happens and Rowling 
is unable to complete the series? There are instances of unfinished 
works in literature and music. Does anyone know if there are safe-
guards in place if this should happen? I know she allegedly has an 
outline for the entire series, but still...

:-)Milz


 




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 20:18:46 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:18:46 -0000
Subject: Compassion for Draco?
In-Reply-To: <3AD44A69.90C79B15@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b52j6+ohjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16566

Amanda:"About the only shred of possibility I've seen for this is 
Draco's reaction in book 1, in the Forbidden Forest, when he ran 
screaming from the thing drinking the unicorn blood. That might have 
been the first time he'd really confronted a truly evil thing, and he 
was terrified and fled. However, given that that was in book 1, and 
he's still a nasty little *hmmm* through the end of book 4, I don't 
think the scare acted as any sort of real deterrent or wake-up call."

True, and he's show himself to be a little coward since then, too. 
OTOH, the Forbidden Forest scene is small-time compared to some of the 
stuff he's likely to see.  

If anything changes him it won't be something that scares him for his 
own pale ***, it will be something that basically grosses him out and 
really brings home to him this is all about pain, death, and terror. 
It might be something he's asked or expected to participate in. He 
might not have developed enough sadism at that age that he likes it. 
(what they used to call "wet work") I don't really expect it to 
happen, but for those who would like Draco to be saved, I don't see 
another chance for him.




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 12 20:18:51 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:18:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
References: <LAW2-F9ZQl5AVcLpqqF00003d99@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AD60DAB.C2582F04@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16567

Morag Traynor wrote:

> However, I don't care how many issues Snape has, I still can't forgive
> him for being a rotten teacher.

I think Snape's view of what a teacher does, and yours (and mine),
probably differs. Snape probably considers the duty of a teacher to
impart information, and this he does. After all, Hermione, Ron, and
Harry managed to make a very complicated potion in their second year.

The "parental" aspect of a teacher, how they relate to their students,
probably isn't on Snape's scale at all. It's not his job to be nice. He
puts valuable information out there, and if the students are too idiotic
to be able to use it, the more fools they.

So while I also dislike the way Snape treats Neville, I don't think he
can be called a bad teacher. A very mean person, yes.

>  if Snape was any kind of a teacher, he'd realize the poor kid is
> scared out of his wits.

He probably does. He probably doesn't care. It's not his job as a
teacher to mollycoddle anyone.

His reactions to Neville actually remind me a bit of frustration--how
can *anyone* possibly be so hopeless?--with the edge of having seen the
potential. He probably knew Neville's parents, who were potent enough to
be Aurors, and Neville's grandmother is formidable as well. Whether he's
"acting out" with Neville, feeling guilty that DeathEaters he knew
perpetrated the attack, or whether he simply is so frustrated that
someone who *should* have such ability *doesn't,* there seems to be an
unusual degree of intensity to Snape's devilment where Neville's
concerned.

I think there's *way* more to Neville than we've seen so far. I still
think he's had his memory damaged by well-meaning relatives. Maybe when
they learn charm-breaking or hex-removing or something, Neville's memory
charm will accidentally be broken? Hmmmm.

But on the whole teacher thing, I think it's a current thing to view
schools and teachers as sort of extensions of the family, teachers as
mentors, teachers as developers of the "whole child," that sort of
thing. I think Snape probably is a very good teacher, in the narrow
definition of one who imparts knowledge of a subject. For the rest, as I
said, I don't think it's even crossed his mind that that's part of his
job.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gerstin at pacbell.net  Thu Apr 12 20:30:24 2001
From: gerstin at pacbell.net (gerstin at pacbell.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:30:24 -0000
Subject: DADA in OoP
Message-ID: <9b5390+9sph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16568

Hi folks-
Where (in canon) do we get the idea that there will be a new DADA
teacher in OoP? OK, granted that there's been a different DADA teacher
each year so far, but we shouldn't assume that's always true -- after
all, we believe Quirrell had been teaching for a while before PS/SS,
right?

>From what I remember, there's no reason to assume Moody won't be back
next time. We heard from Barty Jr. that he would only be out of
retirement to teach for a year (significant paraphrasing there, as I
don't have my books with me). That comment came from the fake Moody,
not the real one. And Barty Jr. knew perfectly well that HE wouldn't
be back the following year - he planned to be openly working for
Voldemort by then!

So why assume the real Moody won't be the DADA teacher in OoP? First,
he is present at the end-of-year feast, so he's still at Hogwart's at
that point. We didn't hear from Dumbledore that Moody was "temporary",
did we? Second, especially in light of Voldemort's return (and Fudge's
foolish blindess), and the impending "war", why wouldn't Moody be
Dumbledore's first choice for DADA? He'd be MY first choice!

Now, don't get me wrong - I would be surprised (given her track
record) if JKR DIDN'T give us a new DADA teacher in OoP. But that's
based on what I know or have heard about JKR (interviews, conjecture,
etc.), not based on canon....

Thoughts?

-Ed




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 20:44:31 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:44:31 -0000
Subject: Horrible Thought!
In-Reply-To: <9b5250+8776@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b543f+dgjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16569

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Warning: not to be read by the faint-hearted.
> 
> 
> I just had a horrible thought. What if something happens and 
Rowling 
> is unable to complete the series? There are instances of unfinished 
> works in literature and music. Does anyone know if there are safe-
> guards in place if this should happen? I know she allegedly has an 
> outline for the entire series, but still...
> 
> :-)Milz

Dear Milz,
I have been having this thought regularly for the last 3 years. With 
every new book published, the feeling intensifies.  It just shows how 
obsessional I am.  She has said, repeatedly, that the final chapter 
of the 7th book was written a long time ago, and that everything is 
mapped out, but that doesn't offer me much consolation.  For one 
thing, she has said that by the time it comes to it, she will 
probably have to rewrite the last chapter, and for another, just 
imagine if someone took on her mantel and wrote the final books.  
They would hardly be exactly what she would have written, and all of 
us diedinthewool fans would probably find it difficult to cope with.

Catherine




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 20:50:44 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:50:44 -0000
Subject: ADMIN Re: Unfriendly site.....not
In-Reply-To: <80.993a5b9.2806a1a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b54f4+ligb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andeinmn at a... wrote:

> 
> For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular little  
group. It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members 
who do post are rarely acknowledged.  At least weekly there is one 
public deep sigh from  an older member about how nice things were 
before "all those Salon people"  came aboard, "oh, here we go again" 
when one of them is actually brave enough to post something.  These 
remarks go unchallenged.  

> Sincerely,
> Andrea Lawrence


I am a newbie(2 weeks) and I do not find this list group to be 
cliquish or insular at all. Sure there will be some "inside" jokes 
going on from time to time. I expect that with people who have been 
together for awhile, in any group, and I'm not offended by it.

I just started posting messeges here earlier this week after lurking 
for a bit, out of the frying pan into the fire.:-) I am not at all 
imtimidated by the "old timers" and I don't feel I need my posts to 
be acknowledged personally(although they have been) to know whether 
or not my opinions have been read. I also don't feel that it's been 
difficult for me to get a toehold here as a new member. So far I have 
found the people here friendly and always willing to have a good 
debate on topics. Maybe I'm luckier than most other newbies in my 
experiences here. 

I agree with Penny that there needs to be rules on a list this size 
and they need to be enforced. I'm not much for authority figures but 
it is a necessary "evil" to maintain order. 

I've enjoyed my first two weeks of membership so far and I expect it 
to be just as enjoyable in the future. I'm always up for a good 
debate/aurgument. :) 

Cheers to a fun site,

 Kristin




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Apr 12 20:55:05 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:55:05 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
Message-ID: <9b54n9+p0e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16571

A question (which might be based on another Flint). I am totally not
> remembering where the whole "teddy turned into spider" scene is, at 
all,
> so I may have my facts off, but if Ron was three when Fred (or 
George,
> can't remember, apologies) turned his teddy into a spider, they were
> only four or five. So I'm inferring from this that wizarding 
children
> *do* dabble in magic, but they're not formally schooled until 
Hogwarts.
> 
> Any thoughts? Did I get ages wrong or anything? I can't believe I 
can't
> remember where that *is*....
> 
> --Amanda, losing brain cells by the day, seems like


Ohh how lovely! My field exactly - digging up the nitpicky stuff :) 
Its all in HP and the Chamber of Secrets, chapter 9 (the Writing on 
the Wall), page 117: "...when I was three, Fred turned my - my teddy 
bear into a dirty great spider beacuse I broke his broomstick."

Since the twins are two years older than Ron, that would make them 
five when all this took place. 

>>As to why they don't learn simple charms - one theory may be that
 Dumbledore wants to make sure that all children start their magical 
education on a similar footing.

I always thought about wizardingkids different chances of succeding 
in school as something similar to mugglekids chances of succeding 
there - different levels of consciousness and general knowledge 
depending wether they are from stimulating backrounds or not. Not 
that they overall knows that much more about actual spells and things 
like it, but being used to magic, being there to watch it at home, 
dealing with it from weak age, might increase their chances to 
succeed their magical education, no matters how Dumbledore tries to 
equalize it. I know Hagrids words: "Everyone starts from beginning at 
Hogwarts, but it don?t mean they end up with the same grades.

/Jennifer




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 12 20:56:10 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:56:10 -0000
Subject: Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <3AD60DAB.C2582F04@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b54pa+ud41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16572

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I think there's *way* more to Neville than we've seen so far. I 
still
> think he's had his memory damaged by well-meaning relatives. Maybe 
when
> they learn charm-breaking or hex-removing or something, Neville's 
memory
> charm will accidentally be broken? Hmmmm.
> --Amanda

I find this theory very interesting, and quite plausible, given 
Neville's general forgetfulness.  That is, apart from one thing.  
What possible reason could there be for Neville having his memory 
moderated?  He knows what happened to his parents, as was revealed in 
GoF, he spends sleepless nights thinking about it, as we find out 
when Harry has entered Dumbledore's pensieve.  What else could there 
be for him to know?  I'm not discounting the theory - just interested 
to find out what other possibilies there are.

As for your comments about Snape's frustration about Neville just 
being a hopeless pupil...Don't get me wrong, my attitude towards 
Snape has changed a great deal since GoF, if not earlier, and I don't 
see him in the black and white terms with which I feel he is often 
depicted.  However, in Neville's case, he is definitely an extremely 
bad, cruel and bullying teacher.  I come from a long line of 
schoolteachers (I am not one myself, but used to do private tutoring) 
and one thing I can say without equivocation is that the best a 
teacher can do is encourage and be positive about a pupil's 
achievements, NOT to bully, and scare them so much that they are 
always going to do badly in your class because you have turned them 
into a nervous wreck.  Snape may well be trying to get Neville to 
show his mettle, but IMO he is not succeeding, and is really getting 
a sadistic pleasure out of treating Neville badly.
If one was to try and bolster Neville up, and make him feel braver, 
one only has to follow the example of Prof Lupin.  In my mind, it 
bears no comparison.

Catherine,
(who also has a soft spot for Neville, as everyone has probably 
noticed).




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Apr 12 20:54:12 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:54:12 -0700
Subject: Quirrel --where is he now?
In-Reply-To: <9b30kp+4gne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412135225.00c6b100@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16573


I just finished re-reading GoF last night, and I remember a discussion 
about what happened to Quirrel. I don't remember it being resolved, so I 
hope I'm not just repeating what someone else said. ;)

In the "final battle" where Voldie is talking to Harry, he mentions that 
when he left Quirrel, he died. Just like the other people and animals V 
"used" while he didn't have his own body.

-Katie




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Apr 12 20:52:08 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:52:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <9b2tnj+98pj@eGroups.com>
References: <9b206j+103hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412134356.00ba4650@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16574

At 12:43 AM 4/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Clairey:" Why at the start of GoF didn't Harry write to double d when
>his scar first hurt? He wrote to Sirius instead, seeing him as a
>father figure. I think its highly unlikely, but im not going to rule
>out the possibility that Sirius or Lupin could die. I dont see this
>happening mainly because Harry has allready lost one father. If double
>d was to die, i think it would be more to show that Mr V is stronger
>than he was at the height of his powers before lil harry got in his
>way."
>
>Good question. Why didn't Harry write to Dumbledore? Or both Sirius
>and Dumbledore?


Harry has a special relationship with Dumbledore. He knows how to get to 
DD's office, he's seen his thoughts in the Penseive, he's told *much* more 
about what's going on, he has a feather from his phoenix in his wand, for 
goodness sakes. ;)

At the same time, DD is the headmaster of the school -- he's supposed to be 
there for everyone. He's a very public figure, and I think Harry doesn't 
want to seem like he's the teacher's pet -- he gets teased enough as it is. 
If he spends a lot of time bringing his concerns to DD, it sort of makes 
him stand apart from the other students even more. And that's just the sort 
of situation he usually tries to avoid.

Sirius, on the other hand, is not headmaster. ;) He doesn't have any other 
little boys looking for attention from him -- he's Harry's godfather. 
Therefore, Harry can feel more comfortable about going to him. It's just 
talking to his godfather, not bringing all his problems to the headmaster 
of the whole school.

I mean, I'm not about to go to my CEO everytime I get annoyed at my 
coworkers. ;) I feel a lot more comfortable going to my manager, or the 
mentor that was appointed to me when I was hired.

Also, I sort of agree with the idea that Harry might suffer from some mild 
depression. That doesn't mean bursting into tears all of the time, but it 
means he puts himself down a bit. He doesn't think that his problems are 
important enough for someone like DD to care about. He's pretty quiet, and 
yes, he doesn't express himself a whole lot. He fears failure, and expects 
it from himself a lot of the time, despite the fact that he succeeds a 
large amount of hte time. He reminds me a bit of when I was younger and 
suffered from depression. ;)  Basically, his thoughts run a little 
illogical at times, especially when he doesn't bring important matters to 
the attention of his teachers or DD -- a prime symptom of depression.

-Katie 




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Apr 12 20:58:53 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:58:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione compulsive?
In-Reply-To: <9b30pv+5ukc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412135432.00c6de80@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16575

At 01:35 AM 4/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Milz wrote:
>
> >I've got to admit, studying material that you know by heart over and
>over and over again,
> >seems a little extreme.
>
>Why do people keep saying this?  Hermione is very smart and could
>probably pull good grades without studying much, but that doesn't mean
>she doesn't have to study.
>
>Am I forgetting a reference?
>
>Amy Z

I agree -- there's a difference between intelligence and memory. I'm 
guessing that a lot of magic is memorizing, and that takes lots of time and 
study.

Sure, some people can pull Bs and As without studying much, but if you want 
to know *everything*, you have to do a good deal of work, even if you're 
the smartest person in the whole darn school.

Partly, she has to spend time catching up with the rest of the wizarding 
world -- she doesn't have 11 years of growing up in a magical household to 
fall back on. She also knows a lot more than the other students.  In book 
3, she just had so darn many classes. ;)

Also, she goes to the trouble of reading the material before class -- 
something that the other students don't do.  Even if you're smart, reading 
all those books takes time. And there's a good reason for reading before 
class -- that way you can refine what you know and ask intelligent 
questions during class, instead of just hearing the information for the 
first time.

-Katie, a recovering Hermione. ;)




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 12 21:05:59 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:05:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <9b5390+9sph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412135812.033a9220@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16576

At 08:30 PM 4/12/01 +0000, gerstin at pacbell.net wrote:
>Now, don't get me wrong - I would be surprised (given her track
>record) if JKR DIDN'T give us a new DADA teacher in OoP. But that's
>based on what I know or have heard about JKR (interviews, conjecture,
>etc.), not based on canon....

I think Moody can be DADA teacher next time without violating the
"different teacher every year" rule -- After all, it *was* an imposter
last time.  I think it's widely assumed not to be Moody because of the
rumors of a female DADA teacher in Book 5.  But AFAIK, JKR
has only said there would be a female at some point, not necessarily
the next book.



                                                 -- Dave




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Apr 12 21:03:41 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:03:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)
In-Reply-To: <9b34me+98rm@eGroups.com>
References: <9b2s53+po63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010412140256.00c6b7e0@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16577

At 02:42 AM 4/12/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm wildly curious to know if Hermione goes to Bulgaria. I'm saying
>she doesn't, but that's only a feeling (she doesn't go in the stories
>I've written - oops, did a plug just slip in there? <g>). If she does
>go, I think this would force Ron into a response closer to his true
>feelings than his "you can't talk to Krum because he's the enemy!"
>line from GoF.

I bet she does. I mean, come on -- a change to see somewhere else in the 
world? Other wizarding people? My gosh! The education experience is simply 
something she couldn't pass up!

;)

-Katie




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 12 21:25:07 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:25:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: dumbledore to die?!
References: <9b206j+103hq@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010412134356.00ba4650@vquill.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c0c397$0c838dc0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16578

Ok.  Here's an off thought.

If something happens to AD, perhaps Sirius might get the headmaster?  By
that time, maybe he's going to be well-known as innocent?

Just a thought.

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katie Kearns" <katie at vquill.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: dumbledore to die?!


> At 12:43 AM 4/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >Clairey:" Why at the start of GoF didn't Harry write to double d when
> >his scar first hurt? He wrote to Sirius instead, seeing him as a
> >father figure. I think its highly unlikely, but im not going to rule
> >out the possibility that Sirius or Lupin could die. I dont see this
> >happening mainly because Harry has allready lost one father. If double
> >d was to die, i think it would be more to show that Mr V is stronger
> >than he was at the height of his powers before lil harry got in his
> >way."
> >
> >Good question. Why didn't Harry write to Dumbledore? Or both Sirius
> >and Dumbledore?
>
>
> Harry has a special relationship with Dumbledore. He knows how to get to
> DD's office, he's seen his thoughts in the Penseive, he's told *much* more
> about what's going on, he has a feather from his phoenix in his wand, for
> goodness sakes. ;)
>
> At the same time, DD is the headmaster of the school -- he's supposed to
be
> there for everyone. He's a very public figure, and I think Harry doesn't
> want to seem like he's the teacher's pet -- he gets teased enough as it
is.
> If he spends a lot of time bringing his concerns to DD, it sort of makes
> him stand apart from the other students even more. And that's just the
sort
> of situation he usually tries to avoid.
>
> Sirius, on the other hand, is not headmaster. ;) He doesn't have any other
> little boys looking for attention from him -- he's Harry's godfather.
> Therefore, Harry can feel more comfortable about going to him. It's just
> talking to his godfather, not bringing all his problems to the headmaster
> of the whole school.
>
> I mean, I'm not about to go to my CEO everytime I get annoyed at my
> coworkers. ;) I feel a lot more comfortable going to my manager, or the
> mentor that was appointed to me when I was hired.
>
> Also, I sort of agree with the idea that Harry might suffer from some mild
> depression. That doesn't mean bursting into tears all of the time, but it
> means he puts himself down a bit. He doesn't think that his problems are
> important enough for someone like DD to care about. He's pretty quiet, and
> yes, he doesn't express himself a whole lot. He fears failure, and expects
> it from himself a lot of the time, despite the fact that he succeeds a
> large amount of hte time. He reminds me a bit of when I was younger and
> suffered from depression. ;)  Basically, his thoughts run a little
> illogical at times, especially when he doesn't bring important matters to
> the attention of his teachers or DD -- a prime symptom of depression.
>
> -Katie
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
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>
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From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 12 21:35:14 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:35:14 -0000
Subject: 3 Cheers for the Moderators!
Message-ID: <9b572i+jllq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16579

I just want to take a moment to express my appreciation for the 
wonderful job our recently maligned and beleaguered moderators are 
doing.  Not only do they have to put up with sarcastic, whiny email 
from people like me who complain about everything and try to foment 
revolution, they have to put up people like Prickly Priscilla (or 
whatever her name was) who complained both that they are too heavy-
handed and that at the same time they dont enforce the rules; and 
subsequently stomped out of the room, slamming the door behind her.

I think the members of the Magical Mod Squad are models of patience 
and selflessness and I think we should take a moment to thank them 
all, even John (not that I am still annoyed about that April Fools 
joke or anything).

I will forego my usual sig to offer the moderators a toast:

       o o
       o
  oo  o
\oo o~ o o/
 \o  o ~ /
  \   ~ /
   \ ~ /
    \ /
     |
     |
     |
     |
   __|__


-- Joywitch M. Curmudgeon




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 22:48:04 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:48:04 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F943mL82etvHGr00005a5c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16580

Amanda wrote:
>I think Snape's view of what a teacher does, and yours (and mine),
>probably differs. Snape probably considers the duty of a teacher to
>impart information, and this he does. <Snip>
>
> >  if Snape was any kind of a teacher, he'd realize the poor kid is
> > scared out of his wits.
>
>He probably does. He probably doesn't care. It's not his job as a
>teacher to mollycoddle anyone.

Interesting points about teaching styles, and I can see that he would 
probably dismiss any notions of "developing the whole child" as poppycock.  
In fact I can imagine him being grimly sarcastic (and quite funny) on the 
subject!

I can also see that the polyjuice episode can be taken as evidence that, 
actually, he must have taught them something.  But that is masterminded by 
Hermione and I think the credit must largely go to her.  If Neville could 
have done it, for instance, I might be more impressed.  That's because I 
think Neville is only clumsy and inept when people start out by telling him 
he's useless.

But to start the first class by telling them he expects them all to be 
dunderheads, then firing a question at Harry which he couldn't be expected 
to answer, and following it up with *another* one, and then ANOTHER one, all 
the while ignoring the one person (Hermione, of course!) who *does* know - 
well, I think its a textbook example of how *not* to do it!

Compare him with Professor Sprout, who pretty much *does* confine herself to 
imparting information and instructions, and whom I rate highly as a teacher 
(well, *I've* learned a lot from her classes *g*) and you can see the 
difference.

You can even have the prickly personality of Snape and be a good teacher - 
it's the bullying, setting people up to fail and picking on people that I 
can't respect.

I totally agree there's a lot more to Neville - I am really looking forward 
to seeing him grow in confidence and getting more respect - Harry, Ron and 
Hermione tend to be kindly but patronising, though we have seen the first 
signs of Harry re-thinking.  You have also made me think more carefully 
about Snape's attitude to Neville - you're right, it *is* very intense, and 
Snape probably knows something we don't.  Not that that excuses him (and not 
that I thought you were trying to excuse him, either *g*).

Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see Snape do (as 
opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that he may have done), that 
puts him in a positive light?

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From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 23:03:54 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Weasley)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:03:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred & George's bet
Message-ID: <F152v1eXlMOHOpykaWp00006838@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16581

There are theories that some twins are born with esp, telekinesis, or some 
other sixth sense.  I have heard accounts of twins making up their own 
language to communicate with no one else being able to understand or reading 
each other's thoughts.  Once, I even watched a special about twins brought 
together after being seperated at birth and put into adoptive homes.  They 
will meet each other in their mid 50's and discover that there lives were 
VERY similarly lead.  What I am suggesting is that Fred and George may have 
more up their sleeves than just tricks and games.  You suggest that Rom 
might be a "seer" but I think it would make more sense of the twins were.

Signe Weasley

>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela B" <aboyko at n...> wrote:
> > I'm rereading GoF, and I have a question. Fred & George bet that
> > Ireland would win the World Cup but Viktor Krum would get the
>snitch,
> > and they were correct.
> >
> > My question - how did they know? They bet their entire savings on
>an
> > unlikely outcome, and these boys are ones who watch their money
> > carefully, it seems.
> >
> > I also have a theory - they've figured out, as this list has
> > theorized, that Ron is a Seer. Not much gets by the twins, they may
> > have already discovered Ron can See the future, even if he doesn't
> > know it. So they listened to Ron talk in his sleep, or they asked
>him
> > what he thought would happen, and Ron said, "Ireland will win, of
> > course, but Krum gets the Snitch" as a joke.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Angela
>
>I know this has been discussed before, but why do you think that Ron
>is a Seer?
>

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From George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com  Fri Apr 13 00:00:42 2001
From: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com (Mrs. G. Weasley)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:00:42 -0000
Subject: An Analysis on George Weasley
Message-ID: <9b5fja+dgrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16582

::waves enthusiastically::  No one here knows me (well, almost 
nobody - ::waves at Eb and Amy Z::) and my other post (or two) was 
totally uninteresting and probably shouldn't have been responded to.  
Well, it wasn't anyway, IIRC, so that in itself cancelled out. 
</babble> In any case, here's one I've worked on for quite some time 
and... well... time'll tell if this one deserves any sort of 
acknowledgement.

With the recent Weasley twins thread (Who *doesn't* love them?), I 
wiggled my way out of the woodwork to plop my lazy self in front of 
the computer and post.  Yes, I've got a lazy streak from here to 
California (only impressive if you know I live in Illinois).

Of the twins, I'm partial to George.  No idea why, considering that 
90% of the fanfiction writing fandom perceives him as gay (Incredible 
writing style aside, PoU was a Godsend for the mere fact George was 
straight, albeit a commitphobe) and I'm attracted to him.  As though 
the whole fictional status of the guy wasn't enough.  ::rolls eyes at 
self::  I wonder about myself, sometimes.  Often, actually.

In any case, I went back and hunted through canon, working hard (I 
put in a good 10 minutes at this one. *wink*) and came up with my 
five fave George quotes and my overanalyzations of them.  Ha, as if 
any of us on this list dare accuse another of overanalyzation.  Is 
there such a thing?  Doubtful.  :)  Anyway, I've posted them below 
with quote and perception.  The first one is from PS, the second from 
CoS the third and fourth from PoA and the last from GoF.

*************************************************************

"Want a hand?"

With these words, the character of George Weasley, enters reader's 
lives and, in my case, hearts.  The first impression is always the 
best one, as a single person only gets one first impression each time 
they encounter someone new.  Harry Potter, a boy who can't remember 
the last time anyone has ever shown him kindness, meets George 
Weasley for the first time and is helped out by the young man.

*******************************************************

"This is all your fault," George said angrily to Wood.  "' Get the 
Snitch or die trying,' what a stupid thing to tell him."

Quidditch is the passion of the entire wizarding world, especially 
those who participate.  George Weasley is a Beater for the Gryffindor 
house Quidditch team, with Oliver Wood as his captain.  With a whim, 
Wood could have any member dismissed and replaced.  Regardless of 
this fact, George yells at his superior because Wood put another team 
member in danger by adopting a win-at-all-costs ultimatum.

*******************************************************

"And me," [Oliver] added as an afterthought.

"We think you're very good, too, Oliver," said George.

After a frustrated Oliver Wood tries to build up team morale with 
praise, he pauses and adds his own name without much conviction.  
George immediately pipes up on behalf of the team (the use to "we" 
instead of "I") and strengthens the self-esteem of their captain.

*******************************************************

"This, Harry, is the secret of our success," said George, patting the 
parchment fondly...  "Anyway, we know [the Marauder's Map] by heart," 
said George.  "We bequeath it to you.  We don't really need it 
anymore."

A scrap of parchment, the Marauder's Map, is one of the most 
important mischief-enabling tools the Weasley twins possess.  It has 
been a major part in aiding them to break rules and avoid getting 
caught.  Though, from context, it is a given that both twins came to 
the conclusion to pass the map on to Harry, George is the one of the 
pair to say the words - which is probably even harder than the 
decision itself.

The statement that they "don't really need it anymore" because of the 
aforementioned comment that they have it already memorized, cannot 
possibly be true.  More than a mere map, this particular tool has the 
ability to locate and identify anyone on the Hogwarts grounds.  It is 
also an aid in certain processes (i.e. Harry saw a miniature version 
of himself tapping the witch statue with his wand, thereby telling 
him how to gain access to the tunnel.).  By now, the twins must have 
realized how hard it was when they had to sneak around Hogwarts past 
curfew without the map and George Weasley agreed to give away the 
irreplacable map, so that Harry may be aided in all 
future "adventures."

*******************************************************

"Fred -- George -- wait a moment."

The twins turned. Harry pulled open his trunk and drew out the 
Triwizard winnings.

"Take it," he said, and he thrust the sack into George's hands.

"What?" said Fred, looking flabbergasted.

"Take it," Harry repeated firmly.  "I don't want it."

"You're mental," said George, trying to push it back at Harry.

George may be poor and in desperate need of money, now that he and 
his twin plan on expanding their business (Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes), 
but his pride and sense of scruples preside over his wants.  Given 
over a thousand Galleons, he hands it back only seconds later, not 
thinking of his own needs.  While his twin just looks stunned, George 
takes action and tries to talk sense into Harry by handing the sack 
back.  At Harry's insistence, they keep it and George thanks him 
while his twin is only able to nod fervently at his side.

*******************************************************

Am I reading into all of this?  You bet.  But everyone needs a hobby, 
right?

With a pounding headache and the desperate need to outline more of 
NQP,

Jana "El Pl?tano" Tucker
ff.net handle: George Weasley's Girlfriend
AIM screen name: Moo11225

"Tom Riddle had turn Hagrid in because he was faced with the prospect 
of a Muggle orphanage if the school closed.  Harry now knew exactly 
how he felt."  --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 00:50:27 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F943mL82etvHGr00005a5c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010413005027.98450.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16583

> Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see
> Snape do (as opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that he 
> may have done), that puts him in a positive light?


In CoS: when Gilderoy Lockhart walks into the staff room after
McGonagall has informed the staff about Ginny's abduction, Snape is
the first to react by offering GL the "opportunity" to go after the
monster.  "Just the man we need!  The very man!"  All the staff fall
into line immediately.  A nice scene.

In GoF: Fudge and Dumbledore are arguing about the return of Lord V.
and Fudge is suggesting angrily that Harry's word is not to be
trusted because he might be, you know, getting sort of weird or
something.  It's the opportunity Snape has been waiting for all
through the books: someone in a superiour position who can expell
Harry Potter from Hogwarts.  Oh joy, oh bliss.  Dumbledore is not
winning the argument; Fudge is the minister.  All Snape has to do is
keep his mouth shut and no more Harry Potter.

And what does he do?  He steps forward, rips up his sleeve and
displays the proof of his former alliance with the DE's, shows that
Dumbledore and Harry are right and blows his best chance yet to get
rid of the kid he despises.  It's a great moment.

Other than that, you're right; positive light doesn't shine on Snape.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From winsome at peoplepc.com  Thu Apr 12 18:31:24 2001
From: winsome at peoplepc.com (Shannon Heisey)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:31:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's wand?
References: <20010409175853.58993.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c0c3b3$4f71e340$d0343604@shannon>

No: HPFGUIDX 16584

Hi guys.  I was starting work on a fanfic whwere Hagrid did actually start
taking classes with the third years to augment what he already had.  I
stopped writing it because it didn't coincide with what I wanted to do, but
wouldn't his taking classes at Hogwarts again give him the perfect
opportunity to show Draco up in front of the whole school? not that he'd
look for it of course, but it would probably just happen, like the bouncing
ferret ordeal.
Shannon




From winsome at peoplepc.com  Fri Apr 13 00:27:08 2001
From: winsome at peoplepc.com (Shannon Heisey)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:27:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
References: <9b2rae+c8qp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c0c3b3$50b0cbe0$d0343604@shannon>

No: HPFGUIDX 16585

Hi guys.  I'm behind on email as well.  I have the Jim Dale version of Harry
Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, and I also have the rest of the books
through Library of Congress, done by one of their readers, and I can
honestly say that Jim Dale does some characters well and others...well,
leave a little to be desired.  Maybe I'm just prejudiced because of the
books I got from the Library of Congress, but that happens.  As someone else
on this list said,  he definitely has the Draco drawl down pat, and I
definitely like the way he does Snape and some of the older women such as
Sprout.  However, I don't see Hagrid having a Scottish accent for some
reason, and I'm not really crazy about the way he tries to do house elf
voices <grin>  But that's me.  I read the other books first, and the guy who
reads them had a lot of different voices.  Even the way he intoned for each
of the characters was different.  I'm not sure what I'll think of the movie,
but I'm sure I will see that too.

Shannon




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 01:06:33 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:06:33 -0000
Subject: Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <003d01c0c3b3$50b0cbe0$d0343604@shannon>
Message-ID: <9b5jep+t27u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16586

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shannon Heisey" <winsome at p...> wrote:
> Hi guys.  I'm behind on email as well.  I have the Jim Dale version 
of Harry
> Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, and I also have the rest of the 
books
> through Library of Congress, done by one of their readers, and I can
> honestly say that Jim Dale does some characters well and 
others...well,
> leave a little to be desired.  Maybe I'm just prejudiced because of 
the
> books I got from the Library of Congress, but that happens.  As 
someone else
> on this list said,  he definitely has the Draco drawl down pat, and 
I
> definitely like the way he does Snape and some of the older women 
such as
> Sprout.  However, I don't see Hagrid having a Scottish accent for 
some
> reason, and I'm not really crazy about the way he tries to do house 
elf
> voices <grin>  But that's me.  I read the other books first, and the 
guy who
> reads them had a lot of different voices.  Even the way he intoned 
for each
> of the characters was different.  I'm not sure what I'll think of 
the movie,
> but I'm sure I will see that too.
> 
> Shannon

Well I just ordered the Fry readings so I will be able to compare 
(thanks for the heads-up on the Sunday-Times discount offer).  I do 
like Jim Dale's interpretation of Gilderoy Lockheart, of Draco, and of 
Mad-Eye Moody.  I can't wait to get the new recordings!

Haggridd




From lowzl at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 01:27:59 2001
From: lowzl at hotmail.com (lowzl at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:27:59 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <3AD5FC0E.4585839D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b5kmv+2jmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16587

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > As to why they don't learn simple charms - one theory may be that
> > Dumbledore wants to make sure that all children start their 
magical
> > education on a similar footing.
> 
> A question (which might be based on another Flint). I am totally not
> remembering where the whole "teddy turned into spider" scene is, at 
all,
> so I may have my facts off, but if Ron was three when Fred (or 
George,
> can't remember, apologies) turned his teddy into a spider, they were
> only four or five. So I'm inferring from this that wizarding 
children
> *do* dabble in magic, but they're not formally schooled until 
Hogwarts.
> 
> Any thoughts? Did I get ages wrong or anything? I can't believe I 
can't
> remember where that *is*....
> 
> --Amanda, losing brain cells by the day, seems like
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It could have been unfocused magic. [i.e. Without a wand, like when 
Harry blew up Aunt Marge] A surge of anger should be enough to fuel 
unfocused magic.




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 01:31:26 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:31:26 -0000
Subject: Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b54pa+ud41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b5kte+tkd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16588

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> What possible reason could there be for Neville having his memory 
> moderated?  He knows what happened to his parents, as was revealed 
in 
> GoF, he spends sleepless nights thinking about it, as we find out 
> when Harry has entered Dumbledore's pensieve.  What else could 
there 
> be for him to know?  I'm not discounting the theory - just 
interested 
> to find out what other possibilies there are.


What else could there be for Neville to know?  Maybe someone doesn't 
want Neville to remember all that took place the night his parents 
were tortured (or some other night).  Could that someone not be 
Snape?  Here's a wild theory.  Snape may have been at the scene after 
the torture.  No one can know he was there so a little memory erasing 
was done to the young Neville. Snape cannot take the chance of 
Neville remembering yet what went on that night.  It could blow his 
cover or something along that line.  Snape treats Neville badly in 
hopes that Neville will be frightened of him and hopefully suppress 
any memories.  This theory is not original to me but I kind of like 
it.


What did Neville think of on the train with the dementors?  Neville 
sure had Snape on his mind when it came time to fighting the 
boggart.  Neville fears a menancing Snape approaching him, bearing 
down upon him, reaching inside his robes.  Surely Neville doesn't 
fear Snape only because of the horrible way Snape treats him.  There 
just seems to be more to it.



> 
> Catherine,
> (who also has a soft spot for Neville, as everyone has probably 
> noticed).


Neville is going to make his grandmother proud one of these days!  

Koinonia




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 01:42:05 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:42:05 -0000
Subject: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <9b5390+9sph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b5lhd+ntt2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16589

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gerstin at p... wrote:
> Hi folks-
> Where (in canon) do we get the idea that there will be a new DADA
> teacher in OoP?
> So why assume the real Moody won't be the DADA teacher in OoP? 

Hi- 

I know that we can't necessarily take everything the fake Moody said 
to be true, but in "The Unforgiveable Curses" chapter, he tells Harry 
and the class that he has one year to teach them everything he knows.  
I imagine that Barty Jr. actually did get that information from the 
real Moody, as he got so many other facts from the real Moody.  

I think that's how we can assume there will be a new DADA professor 
(my knuts are on Arabella Figg taking the position).

--Jenny from Rave




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 13 02:29:54 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:29:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <9b5lhd+ntt2@eGroups.com>
References: <9b5390+9sph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010412222954.0096145c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16590

At 01:42 AM 4/13/01 -0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gerstin at p... wrote:
>> Hi folks-
>> Where (in canon) do we get the idea that there will be a new DADA
>> teacher in OoP?
>> So why assume the real Moody won't be the DADA teacher in OoP? 
>
>Hi- 
>
>I know that we can't necessarily take everything the fake Moody said 
>to be true, but in "The Unforgiveable Curses" chapter, he tells Harry 
>and the class that he has one year to teach them everything he knows.  
>I imagine that Barty Jr. actually did get that information from the 
>real Moody, as he got so many other facts from the real Moody.  

Also, was it Mr.Weasley who said that Dumbledore had dragged Moody out of
retirement to teach? When I read Moody/Crouch's statement above, I simply
assumed that the agreement was just for one year.

>I think that's how we can assume there will be a new DADA professor 
>(my knuts are on Arabella Figg taking the position).

I'll put my galleons on the half-Veela girl (I'm blanking out on her name
... shame on me). Heh, or maybe even Krum, if he's due to graduate. He
doesn't seem to like Durmstrang (is that the correct spelling?) much anyway.

Samaporn




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 02:32:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:32:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Horrible Thought!
References: <9b5250+8776@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD66529.E5B8093E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16591

Milz wrote:

> I just had a horrible thought. What if something happens and Rowling
> is unable to complete the series? There are instances of unfinished
> works in literature and music. Does anyone know if there are
> safe-guards in place if this should happen? I know she allegedly has
> an outline for the entire series, but still...

SHHHH! You fool! Never, never say this out loud! This is like when
you're driving, in a hurry, and a light up ahead's been green for a
while, and you're trying to make it.....if you say anything out loud
like, "I hope that stays green," or "I think we'll make it" you have
*doomed* yourself! The light will hear you and turn red! Never say it
out loud!

--Amanda, clearly over the edge (this, actually, comes as a shock to no
one)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 02:41:13 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:41:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA in OoP
References: <9b5390+9sph@eGroups.com> <3.0.2.32.20010412222954.0096145c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <04bb01c0c3c3$355250c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16592

Ahhhhhhh.

Now I know what's going to happen. <G>

Feel free to steal this for a fanfic.  I just want a completed copy when
you're through!

AD turns to Sirius and asks him to step in as DADA-Instructor, despite
everything (or perhaps he gets the sentence changed to innocent over the
summer).  Sirius becomes the school's newest (and cutest, Carole?)
Professor.  AD suffers some unseen ailment, and THAT'S how he became the new
Headmaster!

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 02:40:37 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:40:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
References: <9b54pa+ud41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD66725.BFE9388C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16593

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > I think there's *way* more to Neville than we've seen so far. I
> still
> > think he's had his memory damaged by well-meaning relatives. Maybe
> when
> > they learn charm-breaking or hex-removing or something, Neville's
> memory
> > charm will accidentally be broken? Hmmmm.
> > --Amanda
>
> I find this theory very interesting, and quite plausible, given
> Neville's general forgetfulness.  That is, apart from one thing. What
> possible reason could there be for Neville having his memory
> moderated?  He knows what happened to his parents, as was revealed in
> GoF, he spends sleepless nights thinking about it, as we find out when
> Harry has entered Dumbledore's pensieve.  What else could there be for
> him to know?

Well, it had been postulated that Neville might have been a witness to
it, and needed the memory of the actual event removed. He's Harry's age,
so he would have been at minimum about 15 months old, and since this
took place after Voldemort's downfall, he was probably older--old enough
for horrific images to stay. Knowing what happened, and having seen it,
are two way different things.

--Amanda

> As for your comments about Snape's frustration about Neville just
> being a hopeless pupil...Don't get me wrong, my attitude towards Snape
> has changed a great deal since GoF, if not earlier, and I don't see
> him in the black and white terms with which I feel he is often
> depicted.  However, in Neville's case, he is definitely an extremely
> bad, cruel and bullying teacher.  I come from a long line of
> schoolteachers (I am not one myself, but used to do private tutoring)
> and one thing I can say without equivocation is that the best a
> teacher can do is encourage and be positive about a pupil's
> achievements, NOT to bully, and scare them so much that they are
> always going to do badly in your class because you have turned them
> into a nervous wreck.  Snape may well be trying to get Neville to show
> his mettle, but IMO he is not succeeding, and is really getting a
> sadistic pleasure out of treating Neville badly.

No, I agree, Snape's behavior is beyond the pale where Neville is
concerned. I was trying to define "teacher" in terms of how Snape
probably sees it, as opposed to what we think a teacher should be.
Neville aside, Snape has been shown to be able to keep a class
attentive, he walks around and pays attention to individuals (albeit
nasty attention), and he gets results. So he's fulfilling the function,
and I didn't think the blanket label "bad teacher" covered it
adequately. It's sort of a yes-and-no thing.

--Amanda (hoping you all realized that "mollycoddle" and "idiot" stuff
in the original post was put in for Snape flavor! I forgot to use
parentheses or single quotes!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 02:42:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:42:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 3 Cheers for the Moderators!
References: <9b572i+jllq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD667B3.34F713B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16594

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> I will forego my usual sig to offer the moderators a toast:
>
>        o o
>        o
>   oo  o
> \oo o~ o o/
> \o  o ~ /
>   \   ~ /
>    \ ~ /
>     \ /
>      |
>      |
>      |
>      |
>    __|__
>

*hic* yesh, me toooo....
:::slumps in chair, slides gently to floor:::

--Adnama


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Fri Apr 13 02:55:09 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:55:09 -0000
Subject: Ron's dirty job (was Ron Sequitors)
In-Reply-To: <20010412061135.54509.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b5pqd+105ka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16595

One more Ron thought and then I promise I will let this thread drop: 
I've been trying to figure out why I was so shocked/suprised when 
people first raised the "Ron is prejudiced" argument, and I think 
I've worked it out: It seems that JKR uses him a lot of the time, by 
necessity, to carry her water. In the trio, he's the mouthpiece of 
the wizarding world. 

Harry is a muggle-raised wizard, which means his contributions are 
all newly learned or instinctual. Hermione contibutes book-learning 
and her own natural scepticism. But Ron, as the only wizard-raised 
person in the trio, gets stuck doing a lot of explaining on the 
author's behalf, i.e. this is what most wizards think of werewolves, 
this is what most wizards believe about grims, this is what most of 
us were told about giants. All potentially predjudiced, but don't 
forget it's also Ron who explains about Quidditch, wizard candy, the 
joys of Hogsmeade, etc. The examples are endless. If any other wizard-
raised people were around, they'd probably say much the same thing; 
heck, Hagrid could probably tell us what most wizards think of 
giants. 

But since the trio is usually hiding out somewhere unpublic, it's Ron 
who has to do the dirty work of setting up the wizarding status quo 
so Harry can then prove it false. I don't mean to suggest those 
aren't prejudiced opinions, but I don't think we can slam Ron too 
hard just because he's the one who has to say them. 

~Rosmerta






From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 04:27:06 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 21:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] 3 Cheers for the Moderators!
In-Reply-To: <9b572i+jllq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413042706.3007.qmail@web207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16596


--- joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> I just want to take a moment to express my
> appreciation for the 
> wonderful job our recently maligned and beleaguered
> moderators are 
> doing.  Not only do they have to put up with
> sarcastic, whiny email 
> from people like me who complain about everything
> and try to foment 
> revolution, they have to put up people like Prickly
> Priscilla (or 
> whatever her name was) who complained both that they
> are too heavy-
> handed and that at the same time they dont enforce
> the rules; and 
> subsequently stomped out of the room, slamming the
> door behind her.
> 
> I think the members of the Magical Mod Squad are
> models of patience 
> and selflessness and I think we should take a moment
> to thank them 
> all, even John (not that I am still annoyed about
> that April Fools 
> joke or anything).
> 
> I will forego my usual sig to offer the moderators a
> toast:
> 
>        o o
>        o
>   oo  o
> \oo o~ o o/
>  \o  o ~ /
>   \   ~ /
>    \ ~ /
>     \ /
>      |
>      |
>      |
>      |
>    __|__
> 
> 
> -- Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
> 
I would like to join you in toasting our Moderator
Team. Lord only knows what they have done in a past
life to have to put up with the lot of us <vbg>. These
folks must put a great deal of their own lives
(assuming they still have lives of their own) on hold
to help us out. Add me to the list of people who
appreciate all the time and effort that goes into
keeping this list going.

Thank you,
Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 04:56:39 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 04:56:39 -0000
Subject: Ron's Phobias
In-Reply-To: <20010411142823.31324.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b60u7+q4gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16597

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> wrote:
> > I was really just arguing that I'm not sure he's
> > truly *overcome* his
> > fears of spiders.  He's still apprehensive around
> > them [snip snip] But, I guess I interpret >
> "confronting &
> > overcoming* a fear
> > more narrowly than others.  That's all.
> 
> Confronted, yes.  Overcame, no.  You gotta give poor
> Ron credit where credit is due.  He has an absolute
> phobia of spiders, and yet he follows a line of them
> into the Forbidden Forest, where he *knows* a ton of
> them are likely congregating, all to help Harry and
> Hermione. (Remember, it's looking at Hermione's empty
> seat in class that pursuades him to go.)  
> 
> Just because he didn't overcome the fear for all time
> doesn't detract from his incredible courage in this
> circumstance.  I've got a phobia of snakes as strong
> as Ron's of spiders, and I can honestly say that I
> don't think I would follow even one snake *anywhere*,
> even to help my friends.  Hopefully, I would rise
> above my fear like Ron did.  But even if I did the
> once, my fear wouldn't necessarily be *gone*.  But
> doesn't that make the courage required even greater?
> 
> 
> Andrea II 
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 
> __________________________________________________




Yes, I now agree with Andrea II. I am dealing with my "Phobia" about 
dentists, and I find out from my web search and dentist that a ton of 
people have phobias.

Phobia is defined as an irrational intense fear based on a traumatic 
experience.

I found out that dentists when I was a child did dental work without 
novacaine. If the patient screamed, they gave them novacaine (but 
physiologically that felt like more pain). 

So for years I pretended that I was the Amazon Queen when I went to 
the dentist, and just went.

I would agree that proceeding in the face of intense irrational fear 
requires immense courage. Ron has not overcome his intense irrational 
fear of spiders, but he has mustered the courage to proceed in the 
face of that fear. 

Very impressive.

susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 05:03:56 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 05:03:56 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b2eh7+aaj5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b61bt+c5d6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16598

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
>  He is a 
> > bully/coward, picking on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
> confidence and 
> > will put up with it (no known *issues* from the past there)
> 
> 
> There are no known *issues* from the past that we know of.  I don't 
> believe Snape picks on Neville simply because Neville lacks 
> confidence. There is more to Snape/Neville.  We just don't know 
what 
> it is yet.  I am not taking up for the way Snape treats Neville.  I 
> am just saying we don't know the whole story yet.  The same thing 
> with Snape and Harry.  Though Snape shows quite a bit of unfairness 
> towards Harry, I don't believe Harry is the perfect angel.  Harry 
> does tend to get away with quite a bit. 
>    
> 

Respectfully to your views -- I must say I think this is rubbish...
Even if a student gets away with a lot (and Snape starting picking on 
Harry in their first lesson so that's not it), there is NO excuse for 
a teacher to be unfair, humiliate students or be abusive.






















From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 05:41:43 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 05:41:43 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <9b5kmv+2jmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b63in+p1uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16599

Muggle born children would go to muggle schools prior to finding out 
about magic. Wizard parents may have an open option to send there 
kids to muggle school. I agree that Draco probably attended a private 
school. [mentioned earlier] 

Wizard children 'dabble in magic'?: My kids try to do things they are 
not old enough for. Mostly harmless, no aunt attacks yet. Surge of 
anger? My kids have definitely done that. 

Bugg 

>
"teddy turned into spider" 
I'm inferring from this that wizarding 
children *do* dabble in magic, but they're not formally schooled 
until Hogwarts.
> --Amanda, losing brain cells by the day, seems like
> 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lowzl at h... wrote:
It could have been unfocused magic. [i.e. Without a wand, like when 
Harry blew up Aunt Marge] A surge of anger should be enough to fuel 
unfocused magic. 






From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Fri Apr 13 07:00:10 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What are we here for? (was Re: Compassion for Draco?)
Message-ID: <20010413070010.5B0BD274F@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16600

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From driveslucy at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 07:08:20 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:08:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy 
Message-ID: <c9.ef9c5b5.2807ffe4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16601

Morag writes:

> Where Bagman is cynical, Percy is 
>  idealistic (if a bit silly - but then, he does win).  Percy may be a bit 
of 
>  a stuffed shirt at times, bless him, but he has high moral standards, 
which 
>  is why I repudiate any suggestion he will turn to the Dark Side.

Morag, I thought your analysis of Percy was dead on, I could have quoted the 
whole thing.  I, too, have a soft spot for Percy.  What can I say?  I've 
always gone for the bookish, bespectacled type.  He is smart and 
conscientious, but he is not very worldly and that is what worries me.  He so 
reveres Fudge.  If Fudge surrenders to ambition, if Fudge refuses to 
acknowledge the coming crisis because it threatens his position at the 
Ministry, could Percy see him for what he is?  I'm not sure he could.  Percy 
would NEVER knowingly participate in the Dark Arts, but I do think he could 
be duped, despite his good intentions.  Once I see what JKR does with Fudge 
in OoP perhaps I will relax but, right now, I am more afraid for Percy than I 
am for any other Weasley.

Luce



From driveslucy at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 07:26:02 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:26:02 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred & George's bet
Message-ID: <32.1372e633.2808040a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16602

Angela writes:

> My question - how did they know? They bet their entire savings on an 
>  unlikely outcome, and these boys are ones who watch their money 
>  carefully, it seems.
>  
>  I also have a theory - they've figured out, as this list has 
>  theorized, that Ron is a Seer. Not much gets by the twins, they may 
>  have already discovered Ron can See the future, even if he doesn't
>  know it. So they listened to Ron talk in his sleep, or they asked him 
>  what he thought would happen, and Ron said, "Ireland will win, of 
>  course, but Krum gets the Snitch" as a joke.
>  

Ooooh, interesting theory, Angela, and entirely possible.  He was supporting 
Ireland for the Cup but Krum is his hero.  That is exactly the kind of thing 
he would say, simply out of loyalty. 

Luce



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 07:28:35 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:28:35 -0000
Subject: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010412222954.0096145c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9b69r3+a64l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16603

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:
> At 01:42 AM 4/13/01 -0000, you wrote:
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gerstin at p... wrote:
> >> Hi folks-
> >> Where (in canon) do we get the idea that there will be a new DADA
> >> teacher in OoP?
> >> So why assume the real Moody won't be the DADA teacher in OoP? 
> >
> >Hi- 
> >
> >I know that we can't necessarily take everything the fake Moody 
said 
> >to be true, but in "The Unforgiveable Curses" chapter, he tells 
Harry 
> >and the class that he has one year to teach them everything he 
knows.  
> >I imagine that Barty Jr. actually did get that information from 
the 
> >real Moody, as he got so many other facts from the real Moody.  
> 
> Also, was it Mr.Weasley who said that Dumbledore had dragged Moody 
out of
> retirement to teach? When I read Moody/Crouch's statement above, I 
simply
> assumed that the agreement was just for one year.
> 
> >I think that's how we can assume there will be a new DADA 
professor 
> >(my knuts are on Arabella Figg taking the position).
> 
> I'll put my galleons on the half-Veela girl (I'm blanking out on 
her name
> ... shame on me). Heh, or maybe even Krum, if he's due to graduate. 
He
> doesn't seem to like Durmstrang (is that the correct spelling?) 
much anyway.
> 
> Samaporn

I can't imagine that Dumbledore would employ Fleur as DADA 
professor.  For one thing, she is too young and inexperienced, and he 
will probably want someone with experience of what it was like the 
first time around with Voldemort, in order to prepare the students 
properly. 

Another thing, I think that it would be pretty insulting to Harry if 
he were to be taught by someone he beat in the tournament.  
Particularly as one could say that he has had more experience of dark 
arts than Fleur probably has (supposition, I know, but a fairly safe 
one), and managed better than her in the lake - remember the 
Grindylow?

My money is on Moody (the Barty Crouch one probably expected the real 
Moody to be dead by the end of the year, hence the one year comment) 
or Arabella Figg.

Catherine




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Apr 13 07:33:23 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:33:23 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <04bb01c0c3c3$355250c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEOOCCAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16604

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denise R [mailto:gypsycaine at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA in OoP
 
> AD turns to Sirius and asks him to step in as DADA-Instructor, despite
> everything (or perhaps he gets the sentence changed to innocent over the
> summer).  Sirius becomes the school's newest (and cutest, Carole?)
> Professor.  AD suffers some unseen ailment, and THAT'S how he became the new
> Headmaster!

Um, I see a slight problem with this scenario: don't forget that Sirius
is still in hiding from the MoM, and even though Dumbledore doesn't give
much on Fudge's opinion right now, he cannot accept an Azkaban escapee
in his staff. Apart from a few people including the trio and perhaps the
old crowd, the wizarding world still thinks that Sirius is a dangerous
murderer. The parents of the students would object, and I think even
more vehemently than they would have objected had they known that
Lupin was a werewolf.

I can't see Fleur Delacour as a DADA teacher either. As much as I would
like to see a woman in this position, I hope it won't be her. She did very
poorly in the Triwizard Tournament, and I don't think that her male students
would learn much because they would spend the lessons gaping at her.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From driveslucy at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 07:52:28 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:52:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding primary schools again
Message-ID: <3b.1326fe45.28080a3c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16605

Jennifer writes:

> > Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear way. i 
>  > was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, to 
>  read 
>  > and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids attended 
>  any 
>  > such school before Hogwarts. 

I can't imagine that many non-Muggleborn students ever attend Muggle schools, 
they would certainly know a lot more about Muggle society if they had.  Could 
anyone reach age 11 without having a lesson in proper use of the telephone?  
Also kids are terrible braggarts.  The risk would be unacceptably high that 
someone would spill the beans.  

I suspect there is a lot of home schooling.  Perhaps wealthier families, like 
the Malfoys, employ nanny-equivalents.  Witchy Poppins?  Hmmm, well, maybe 
not.  Oh!  Maybe there is something like Sesame Street that comes by way of 
the fireplace?  Like when Sirius visited Harry, only it's Professor 
Knobblewart with the lesson of the day?

Luce 



From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 10:25:23 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:25:23 -0000
Subject: Elf Magic / Apparating 
In-Reply-To: <8s2riq+qgsl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b6k6j+2sc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16606

Like I good user, I searched previous post and found some good 
answers / opinions. The question that remains: 

Why are elves allowed to appear/disappear in and out of Hogwarts? 
I don't think Wizard magic can prevent it. 
Opinions or theories?  

Bugg 
 


Previous post: 
> But Apparating is a specific kind of magic -- wizard magic. 
Dobby *disappeared* but we don't know that he *disapparated.* 
Maybe he just used house-elf magic. (We know there is such a thing.) 
cassie






From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 11:13:35 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:13:35 -0000
Subject: Wizarding primary schools again
In-Reply-To: <3b.1326fe45.28080a3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b6n0v+pns9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., driveslucy at a... wrote:
> Jennifer writes:
> 
> > > Oh, I?m sorry, I could have expressed myself in a more clear 
way. i 
> >  > was talking about ordinary schools were you are teached math, 
to 
> >  read 
> >  > and write, stuff like that, and wether the wizardingkids 
attended 
> >  any 
> >  > such school before Hogwarts. 
> 
> I can't imagine that many non-Muggleborn students ever attend 
Muggle schools, 
> they would certainly know a lot more about Muggle society if they 
had.  Could 
> anyone reach age 11 without having a lesson in proper use of the 
telephone?  
> Also kids are terrible braggarts.  The risk would be unacceptably 
high that 
> someone would spill the beans.  
> 
> I suspect there is a lot of home schooling.  Perhaps wealthier 
families, like 
> the Malfoys, employ nanny-equivalents.  Witchy Poppins?  Hmmm, 
well, maybe 
> not.  Oh!  Maybe there is something like Sesame Street that comes 
by way of 
> the fireplace?  Like when Sirius visited Harry, only it's Professor 
> Knobblewart with the lesson of the day?
> 
> Luce


I like that idea!!!
:) claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 11:22:47 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:22:47 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <00e301c0c397$0c838dc0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9b6ni7+ugdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16608

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Ok.  Here's an off thought.
> 
> If something happens to AD, perhaps Sirius might get the 
headmaster?  By
> that time, maybe he's going to be well-known as innocent?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 



Hmmm...I'm not sure that Sirius will ever be off the hook....unless...
wormtail gets captured (?).....by Harry (?)....
I think that Lupin is more the headmaster type, especially as he has 
allready taught at Hogwarts....


Also, why didn't Harry write to Lupin about his scar hurting? If he 
is depressive I can understand him not wanting to trouble AD, but why 
not Lupin? After all he DID teach DADA...
After what they went through together in PoA you would have thought 
Harry would see him as more of a friend/father figure.

Claire (who has a bruised nose after playing rugby with her friends!)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 12:16:27 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 05:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape again (was Ron Sequitors)
In-Reply-To: <3AD6047E.741E6400@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010413121628.1803.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16609


--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> So I've been looking forward to some Snape
> development. If this is
> touched upon again, it'll be revealing to see if
> Snape behaves
> differently, or if he simply figured Lupin was
> "sugarcoating" for James'
> kid and to spare himself. I get the feeling Snape
> doesn't lie to himself
> much. But he also doesn't apologize (much like my
> dad)--I think if he
> does alter his view, he'll simply alter it and
> proceed from that point,
> without wasting any time re-examining past actions.
> That seems to be his
> style; the new method of proceeding is supposed to
> be acknowledgement
> enough. [May I add that I got along much better with
> my father once I,
> too, was an adult and could understand this?]

I agree, I think he'd just change his way of thinking,
never once having it occur to him to explaing this to
anyone else.

> 
> Along those lines, I've noticed that a set of words
> frequently
> associated with Snape is "stepped forward." I've
> been meaning to go
> through the books and compile how often this
> particular phrasing is used
> for Snape, and in what settings. I think it
> underlines this perception
> of him that I've got, about the just moving on and
> not wasting time with
> recrimination.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
I hadn't noticed this. If you find the time to check
this out, I be interested in hearing the results.

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr 13 12:40:58 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:40:58 -0000
Subject: Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <003d01c0c3b3$50b0cbe0$d0343604@shannon>
Message-ID: <9b6s4q+7g2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16610

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shannon Heisey" <winsome at p...> wrote:
> Hi guys.  I'm behind on email as well.  I have the Jim Dale version 
of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, 
<snip>
> he definitely has the Draco drawl down pat, and I
> definitely like the way he does Snape and some of the older women 
>such as Sprout.  

I especially like his Edinburgh accent for McGonagall...

>However, I don't see Hagrid having a Scottish accent for some
> reason, 

As far as I can tell, he does Hagrid with a West Country accent that 
I think is perfect [after all, he's written in the books with an 
accent]. Actually, I can't imagine Hagrid _without_ that accent and 
am looking forward to see if Robbie Coltrane does the same in the 
film. I couldn't tell much from just "Harry, you're the boy who 
lived."

Can anyone say if Stephen Fry does Hagrid with a West Country accent? 

Thanks,

Ivis




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 13:13:02 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:13:02 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <c9.ef9c5b5.2807ffe4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b6u0u+so1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16611

-  Percy 
> would NEVER knowingly participate in the Dark Arts, but I do think 
he could be duped, despite his good intentions.  Once I see what JKR 
does with Fudge in OoP perhaps I will relax but, right now, I am more 
afraid for Percy than I  am for any other Weasley.
> 
> Luce

Hmm... I like what you said here about good ol' Perce.  I agree with 
you that Percy would never knowingly partcipate in the Dark Arts, but 
I do worry that he would do a Crouch and start turning people in - 
like maybe his own family.  He's always annoyed with them as it is, 
and certainly doesn't listen to them the way a brother should.  
Remember in CoS when Ginny came to talk to Harry and Ron and Percy 
quickly dismissed her because he was worried about what she might want 
to say about him?  Or that he never questioned Crouch's absence from 
work as more than an illness because he was enjoying feeling so 
important?  He forgets to be a good brother (and person) sometimes 
because he is thinking more about himself.

Percy's obsession with working at the Ministry prevents him from 
seeing things as they really are, just like Fudge.  I can see him 
getting into a situation where he misinterprets something and gets 
someone in a heap of trouble - maybe even himself.  I cannot see him 
becoming evil in any way - just stupid!

--Jen




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 03:33:25 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 03:33:25 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F60Fr9PTANgwin0000454e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16612




>From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk
I always >wonder whether Lupin knew that Neville's greatest fear was Snape, 
and >thought that if he confronted him as a boggart, it would be easier >not 
to be a gibbering wreck in his classes.  (I don't think this
>interpretation works particularly well, particularly as Lupin "looks
>thoughtful", although this could be an act.  And how does Lupin know
>everyone's names before he's even met them???)

Can't resist another go at this subject, to try to do justice to a 
thoughtful reply.  I think Lupin, as a "good teacher" has acquainted himself 
with the names and history of his pupils (this does not rule out more 
plot-related interpretations, e.g. he knew and esteemed Frank Longbottom - 
and I'm sure we will learn more about how Lupin fits in to the whole story). 
  I think he recognises Neville's real courage and the fact that Neville 
needs some experience of successfully dealing with his fears in order to 
build his confidence.  Lupin *does* seem to know a bit about Neville's 
grandmother - he reminds Neville about her handbag (thanks for making me 
re-read!), which could be a lucky guess, but I wonder...  I think the 
thoughtful look is just showing respect for Neville's fear of Snape, because 
the rest of the class is laughing and "Even Neville grinned apologetically." 
  Now *that's* a coo-ul teacher!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 13:24:50 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <9b69r3+a64l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413132450.10930.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16613

--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I can't imagine that Dumbledore would employ Fleur
> as DADA 
> professor.  For one thing, she is too young and
> inexperienced, and he 
> will probably want someone with experience of what
> it was like the 
> first time around with Voldemort, in order to
> prepare the students 
> properly. 

I have to agree that Fleur isn't a likely candidate,
simply on these grounds.  DADA isn't something that
can be learned purely in books, as Harry has been
finding out!  It takes some real-world experience that
Fleur hasn't had time to accumulate.  (The only person
I might trust for DADA right out of school is Harry!
<g>)  Also, with Voldemort's return, I think
Dumbledore would very likely want someone who had
personal experience during V's last reign in order to
best teach the students how to handle it.

I sincerely hope it's Mrs. Figg, just for the look on
Harry's face when he sees her!! LOL


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 13:27:59 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:27:59 -0000
Subject: Audiobooks vs. Text (was: Canon, fanfic and other interpretations)
In-Reply-To: <9b6s4q+7g2b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b6usv+cubs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16614

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., irbohlen at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shannon Heisey" <winsome at p...> wrote:
> > Hi guys.  I'm behind on email as well.  I have the Jim Dale 
version 
> of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, 
> <snip>
> > he definitely has the Draco drawl down pat, and I
> > definitely like the way he does Snape and some of the older women 
> >such as Sprout.  
> 
> I especially like his Edinburgh accent for McGonagall...
> 
> >However, I don't see Hagrid having a Scottish accent for some
> > reason, 
> 
> As far as I can tell, he does Hagrid with a West Country accent 
that 
> I think is perfect [after all, he's written in the books with an 
> accent]. Actually, I can't imagine Hagrid _without_ that accent and 
> am looking forward to see if Robbie Coltrane does the same in the 
> film. I couldn't tell much from just "Harry, you're the boy who 
> lived."
> 
> Can anyone say if Stephen Fry does Hagrid with a West Country 
accent? 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ivis

Yep, he does. (I mentioned it in my post on the subject).  Robbie 
Coltrane is Scottish, but from the trailer, it sounded as though he 
was doing a good job - an almost subtle West Country accent - I like 
it!

Catherine




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Fri Apr 13 11:40:29 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (storm)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:40:29 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
Message-ID: <01C0C472.48F1DCE0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 16615

Hear, Hear!  Well said, Amy!  Otherwise, why should we not then change
the Elizabethan blank verse of Shakespeare, or comb over Dickens, the
Brontes, and Conan Doyle for those nasty British locutions and
eliminate them for the more understandable language of The National
Enquirer?

Haggridd
> --------------------------------------------------
I, for one, did not ask for HP to be translated into what? ... English
translated into English? Or English translated into Americanese? This was
JKR's idea. I disliked it so intensely, that I purchased the British
editions, just so that I could read HP as it was written.

I had absolutely no problems with any British novels that I have read, most
of which I read as a young grade school student. Most of the words I could
either figure out or I would look them up. I actually felt it was an insult
that JKR felt that the American children needed the books translated. I feel
more insulted that some people act like it was an American idea.

Doreen


................

hmm, as always I agree with everyone. The changes in language were undesirable 
IMO but name calling is also not very constructive. I would like to point out 
though (as someone else had) that JKR made the changes as part of getting PS 
published in the US. I think that she might have been putting on a 'brave face' 
about the changes in the previously quoted interviews.

Do I have any support for this (in or out of cannon <g>)? No I don't. So if 
anyone has a link to an interview or other source that support my view please 
chime in. OTOH, if what you have to say contradicts what I say then hush now, 
nobody cares what you think anyway. (d, r & c)


Storm




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Fri Apr 13 12:59:24 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (storm)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:59:24 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Announcements List / OotP release date
Message-ID: <01C0C472.50038E20.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 16616

Hi, like lots of other people I am at least a week behind in my post, so if 
this has already been mulled over forget it ...


IIRC Nov 2001 was the first release date mooted (to coincide with the movie), 
subsequently it has been pushed back .... and back .... and <anguished groan>

So sorry, I don't think this is good news at all, just old news. (I'll happily 
be wrong).

Also, can I make a non ADMIN plea? Can people please <snip> the post they are 
replying to. This really helps those of us on digest, who pay for e-mail access 
by volume and .. and I don't know but a list should have three things on it. 
Makes it easier to get to your (undoubtedly) brilliant point to.

Storm, very tired but with 300 + posts to go has just got her self some diet 
brown fizzy and sugar to keep going. Must <gasp> Must keep going .....




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Apr 13 13:54:42 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:54:42 -0000
Subject: Elf Magic / Apparating
In-Reply-To: <9b6k6j+2sc3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b70f2+trao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16617

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Like I good user, I searched previous post and found some good 
> answers / opinions. The question that remains: 
> 
> Why are elves allowed to appear/disappear in and out of Hogwarts? 
> I don't think Wizard magic can prevent it. 
> Opinions or theories?  

In my opinion, House-Elf magic is some of the most powerful magic 
there is. Dobby is capable of amazing magical feats without a wand or 
incantation. He Apparates (the effect is the same, although he is 
proabably not using the Wizard spell to do it but a House-Elf 
version, which is why it works in Hogwarts). He can close a powerful 
magical portal at will. He can drastically affect a Bludger, which is 
not easy to do or players would do it all the time. 

Why do you think House-Elves are so enslaved? It seems to me that 
somewhere back in antiquity, the Wizards found that it was "best" to 
control the power that was so much greater than their own by cultural 
means, rather like Apartheid controlled a large and potentially power 
majority in South Africa. Hermione's clumsy attempts at House-Elf 
Liberation may just be the gentle stirrings of a great social 
upheaval which will bring to the surface a group weilding incredible 
magical powers. The Wizard community will be faced with changing 
their deep-seated prejudices or finding themselves up against an 
incredibly dangerous and powerful enemy: their erstwhile slaves.

So who knows...Dobby may be the Nelson Mandela of the House-Elves, 
tasting freedom and bringing it slowly to his enslaved people at 
great personal cost. Kind of exciting to think of where this all may 
go. Someone might want to write a fanfic about it. I won't read it, 
of course, until the series is done--I prefer to discuss these things 
in a non-fiction setting--but others might really enjoy that line of 
speculation in a story. Go for it!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 14:23:03 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:23:03 -0000
Subject: 3 Cheers for the Moderators!
In-Reply-To: <3AD667B3.34F713B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b7247+npp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16618

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> joym999 at a... wrote:
> 
> > I will forego my usual sig to offer the moderators a toast:
> >
> >        o o
> >        o
> >   oo  o
> > \oo o~ o o/
> > \o  o ~ /
> >   \   ~ /
> >    \ ~ /
> >     \ /
> >      |
> >      |
> >      |
> >      |
> >    __|__
> >
> 
> *hic* yesh, me toooo....
> :::slumps in chair, slides gently to floor:::
> 
> --Adnama
> 
>

ROFL!! Pour me a glass!!

--Suzanne




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 14:32:48 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
In-Reply-To: <9b6u0u+so1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413143248.69261.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16619

> I do worry that he would do a Crouch and start turning people in - 
> like maybe his own family.  He's always annoyed with them as it is,
> and certainly doesn't listen to them the way a brother should.  

> Percy's obsession with working at the Ministry prevents him from 
> seeing things as they really are, just like Fudge.  I can see him 
> getting into a situation where he misinterprets something and gets 
> someone in a heap of trouble - maybe even himself.  I cannot see
> him becoming evil in any way - just stupid!

A very young man is terribly keen and excited about his first job
working for a very respected wizard like Barty Crouch Sr.  He tries
hard to act like he imagines a person with responsibility would act
and is oblivious to the fact that he comes across as pompous and just
a bit silly.  This is nothing new.  Percy is not "obsessed" nor is he
stupid.  He's just going through growing pains and he'll calm down
with experience.  

As for not suspecting Crouch's disappearance, why should he?  No one
else does either, including (one assumes) several older and wiser
wizards.  Dumbledore doesn't tumble to the fact that Mad-Eye Moody is
an imposter until the very end and not much gets past Dumbledore.

People don't go over to the Dark Side just because they're in a bad
mood or overenthusiastic in their new job.  A desire and a
willingness to hurt others - mortally or otherwise - is key to the
character about anyone who joins Lord V.

Percy is just a kid growing up who's not as adult as he thinks he is.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 13 15:02:01 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:02:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The American Editors are Idiots! Is JKR an  American Editor, therefore, an idiot?
References: <01C0C472.48F1DCE0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <3AD714E9.34022C89@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16620

Okay, being nitpickey....shouldn't this be on the OT Chatter? Just voicing MHO

Jamieson

storm wrote:

> Hear, Hear!  Well said, Amy!  Otherwise, why should we not then change
> the Elizabethan blank verse of Shakespeare, or comb over Dickens, the
> Brontes, and Conan Doyle for those nasty British locutions and
> eliminate them for the more understandable language of The National
> Enquirer?
>
> Haggridd
> > --------------------------------------------------
> I, for one, did not ask for HP to be translated into what? ... English
> translated into English? Or English translated into Americanese? This was
> JKR's idea. I disliked it so intensely, that I purchased the British
> editions, just so that I could read HP as it was written.
>
> I had absolutely no problems with any British novels that I have read, most
> of which I read as a young grade school student. Most of the words I could
> either figure out or I would look them up. I actually felt it was an insult
> that JKR felt that the American children needed the books translated. I feel
> more insulted that some people act like it was an American idea.
>
> Doreen
>
> ................
>
> hmm, as always I agree with everyone. The changes in language were undesirable
> IMO but name calling is also not very constructive. I would like to point out
> though (as someone else had) that JKR made the changes as part of getting PS
> published in the US. I think that she might have been putting on a 'brave face'
> about the changes in the previously quoted interviews.
>
> Do I have any support for this (in or out of cannon <g>)? No I don't. So if
> anyone has a link to an interview or other source that support my view please
> chime in. OTOH, if what you have to say contradicts what I say then hush now,
> nobody cares what you think anyway. (d, r & c)
>
> Storm
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Fri Apr 13 15:13:50 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:13:50 -0400
Subject: Snape's teaching style (was Snape Again)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC085D@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16621

I'm chiming in to agree with and expand on Amanda's great comments about
Snape:

> 
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > > <Lupin rips into Harry in his excruciatingly quiet way, 
> leaving him
> > > feeling like crap (he and Ron ought to go apologize to Hermione,
> > > who, like Lupin, was exasperated that they weren't taking Black
> > > seriously...but anyway)>
> >
> > I really like that part of PoA because it comes immediately after
> > Lupin has rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office.  Snape pretty
> > much tells Harry the same thing Lupin does: a lot of people are
> > running around protecting your hide, Potter, but you don't seem to
> > appreciate it; get with it, all right?
> 
> Tremedous observation! I had never really realized that, but you're
> right.
> 

Oh, absolutely, Magda. Kind disappointment is frequently so much more
difficult to hear (and more effective) than habitual put-downs. Plus you've
got the difference in their sources: Harry greatly respects and admires
Lupin; the same could not be said of Snape. Hearing that Lupin is
"disappointed" in him is far more damning.

Amanda continued: 
> So I've been looking forward to some Snape development. If this is
> touched upon again, it'll be revealing to see if Snape behaves
> differently, or if he simply figured Lupin was "sugarcoating" 
> for James'
> kid and to spare himself. I get the feeling Snape doesn't lie 
> to himself
> much. But he also doesn't apologize (much like my dad)--I think if he
> does alter his view, he'll simply alter it and proceed from 
> that point,
> without wasting any time re-examining past actions. That 
> seems to be his
> style; the new method of proceeding is supposed to be acknowledgement
> enough. 

I think Amanda's hit the nail on the head, here. Snape does not seem to look
back. On the odd occasion when he does reiterate the past, he's so bitter
and narrow-minded that he can only present past events as a justification
for his current course of action (like his explanation in the Shrieking
Shack or to Harry about James, both in PoA). He is thoroughly convinced of
his correctness. When something DOES penetrate, it simply gets folded into
the new paradigm and he adopts it into standard operating procedure. Taking
the course correction is enough. It's a very computational operating system,
as opposed to an analytical (let's get all this straight) or intuitive (but
that would mean...) approach. I think he does analyze and he does make
intuitive leaps as a result, but as Amanda says, he does those things in
private. Once he has made the decision to change his behaviour, however, he
simply makes the change. That's it. End of story.

Another insight I had while writing this: Snape is broken, we all can see
that, but part of why he *stays* broken is because he doesn't examine his
past or make any attempt to see why it has shaped him to be the way he is.
He is bitter and resentful and he disdains everything but his own extreme
sense of honour and conduct (which is highly skewed). As I said,
occasionally something really does penetrate, and he may think about it
enough to see the logic of it (Occam's razor, in the case of the 'prank')
and make a conscious choice to change Supposition to Fact in the file
cabinet of his Id and fold it in to his new operating paradigm. But I think
he doesn't internalize that realization--that is, it still doesn't change
how he feels or how he chooses to interact with that past. It's still past;
therefore there is an oak door between it and where he is now. He may
integrate new learned responses (i.e., Okay, Sirius isn't a mass murderer),
but he still doesn't look at how that colours his attitudes (but I still
hate him). He can't even see how that cripples his judgment. (When I first
read the Shrieking Shack scene, all I could think was the old saw: "My
mind's made up; don't confuse me with the facts.")

Comical side note-- Milz wrote:
> I also think he's frustrated. Over what exactly I can't say, but it 
> affects how he interacts with the students. I speculate that he 
> played a very important role for 'Our Side' during the Voldy years. 
> But, his employment as a 'spy', prohibited any acknowledgement for 
> his efforts. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we'll be able to 
> read about it in the future books.
> 
Well, I'd definitely say that he wouldn't mind getting acknowledgement for
doing Stuff, as evidenced by how he responds to Fudge in PoA: "Thank you
very much indeed, Minister," etc., but I'm more inclined to say that we all
*know* what frustrates Snape (see the Daily Prophet personals--nudge, nudge,
wink, wink)!

Back to serious Amanda quotes:
> 
> I think Snape's view of what a teacher does, and yours (and mine),
> probably differs. Snape probably considers the duty of a teacher to
> impart information, and this he does. After all, Hermione, Ron, and
> Harry managed to make a very complicated potion in their second year.
> 
> The "parental" aspect of a teacher, how they relate to their students,
> probably isn't on Snape's scale at all. It's not his job to 
> be nice. He
> puts valuable information out there, and if the students are 
> too idiotic
> to be able to use it, the more fools they.

I absolutely agree with Amanda on this, and I have an example. I had a
teacher in high school English. Everyone was scared to death of him--with a
few exceptions, of course, but basically everyone. It didn't help that the
guy's built like a linebacker-- 6'4", broad and big, probably 300 pounds
(sorry, can't convert to stone), bald, and with a real deep, Darth Vader
voice (no respirator, though). We called him the "Lasser the Lascerator."
People prayed they weren't put in his section. I'm serious.

On our very first day of class in 9th grade (14 y.o.), he delivered a
lecture to the effect that he was our *teacher*--not our friend, not our
parent, not our confessor. He did not attend any extracurricular activities,
he did not coach, he did not head the debate team, he did not direct (with
one exception each year) school productions--he deliberately avoided any
role of teacher but that spent in the classroom. He warned us that he could,
if he so chose, reduce any one of us to a "pile of melted butter" just with
words, and clearly enjoyed having that kind of reputation. He joked that he
corrected papers in blue ink because when he used red, people worried that
it was blood. He did not see that his role was to do anything other than
teach us--not just his subject, but how to learn it. 

But you know what? He was arguably the best teacher in the school. He turned
us into writers and taught us how to read literature. He made us think, he
made us grow, and he made us perform. I still credit him with a lot of my
development as a writer--it's because of the challenge he threw out to us
that I pushed myself to improve. That and the fear of poor grades ;^) And
while there were probably about half of the students who feared him above
all others (though not to the extent of Neville), even they acknowledged
that he was darn good at what he did. Now, there were subtle changes in our
relationships with him over the years, as we grew into young adults and
began to see that he wasn't _quite_ the ogre he wanted us to think he
was--though he's still an arrogant SOB. By the time we graduated, there were
several students who would go so far as to say they liked him. Most didn't.
But we all learned with amazing efficacy. 

Being a "mean" teacher doesn't necessarily equate to being a "bad" teacher.

Amanda again:  
> But on the whole teacher thing, I think it's a current thing to view
> schools and teachers as sort of extensions of the family, teachers as
> mentors, teachers as developers of the "whole child," that sort of
> thing. I think Snape probably is a very good teacher, in the narrow
> definition of one who imparts knowledge of a subject. For the 
> rest, as I
> said, I don't think it's even crossed his mind that that's part of his
> job.
> 

Bingo again. I think this is so true of Snape--admittedly, it's not the
right approach for Neville. We teach the way we learn. By that I mean, if my
learning style is visual, auditory, or kinetic, grasps concepts quickly or
slowly, requires a lot of coaching, or requires a very clear set of tasks
(Do this, then this, then this), that when I turn around to teach someone
that same process, I'm going to start by teaching it using the preferred
style I used to learn it. 

Assuming Snape was an above average student, one who cottoned on pretty
quickly and didn't need a lot of minute direction, he's going to teach that
way, and assume that anyone who can't do it like that is a "dunderhead."
Snape also has the kind of impatient personality that doesn't suffer fools
well. Where he fails _with Neville_ is that he makes no attempt to alter his
method to find Neville's preferred learning style. However, should Snape be
expected to tailor his teaching style to every student? That's a tough
ethical question. Does he have the right to insult and bully them? No, but
there's a thin line between bullying and challenging. I get the sense that
Snape has one foot to either side of it.

I think he's a bit harsh on the 11 year olds, but then I also think he sets
himself up to be the butt of many choruses of "Get over yourself."
(Incidentally, this is how I felt about my English teacher as well--Dude,
chill out). All through the Potions scene in CoS, where Harry throws the
firework into Goylee's cauldron (ch. 11), all I could think of to say to
Snape was, "Good god, man, could you possibly take yourself more seriously?"
If Neville could simply take Snape with a grain of salt, he wouldn't
internalize Snape's constant barrage of insults, IMO. But that's not
Neville's personality, either.

Now, as to Neville himself, Amanda wrote:
> 
> I think there's *way* more to Neville than we've seen so far. I still
> think he's had his memory damaged by well-meaning relatives. 
> Maybe when
> they learn charm-breaking or hex-removing or something, 
> Neville's memory
> charm will accidentally be broken? Hmmmm

I think there's way more to Neville, too. First of all, I think he'll grow a
lot and become less clumsy. But beyond the physical: no, I don't think his
memory was damaged. I think he's had a lot of pressure put on him by his
family. He hasn't had parents, but there's an army of uncles, aunts,
cousins, grandmother, and other relatives--most of whom sound old enough to
know better--pushing him constantly. I have a feeling that he's the center
of attention at home, in a bad way. I mean, they were champing at the bit to
find out if he was magical, resorting to all sorts of tortures along the
way. I think his family overemphasizes his magical heritage and his
potential and intimidates him even further. He's got such low self-esteem,
he does *not* need to be built up at this point: "This is so easy, Neville,
I know you're just going to take to this like a duck to water. Really, it'll
be fine, Neville, I'm sure you're going to be a natural." This is *not* what
he needs to hear--as with Harry, in fact, it reinforces his doubts, and does
nothing to bolster his ego. He is now even *more* certain that he will fail,
and by failing, disappoint. OTOH, he doesn't need to be belittled, either.

I'm not arguing that Snape is right to push him and scare him more. But I
also don't think Snape should be expected to change his personality to
accommodate Neville. In general, Snape could be more patient, but I
certainly don't see him turning into a nurturing person who takes a lot of
time with Neville on an individual basis. 

It's difficult to see how Snape can get over a lot of this stuff in himself.
He's so patently broken, and with his refusal to look back and examine that
aspect of himself, whether because of the pain or the psychological barriers
or the need to break with his past, I wonder whether he will learn to accept
that he doesn't have to disdain everyone and everything. I see no future in
which Snape is a "nice" person, but I can see him forced to come to grips
with the events who broke him in the first place, and finally moving on.

Okay, I really need to drop this now. Can you tell old Severus has just been
sharing way too much information with me lately? Back, Severus. Down, boy.

Gwen (-dolyn Grace, as another Gwen has arrived recently)



From LynnP333 at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 15:38:08 2001
From: LynnP333 at aol.com (LynnP333 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:38:08 EDT
Subject: Percy
Message-ID: <e8.13613f04.28087760@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16622

Luce wrote:

>He is smart and 

>conscientious, but he is not very worldly and that is what worries me.  He 
so 

>reveres Fudge.  If Fudge surrenders to ambition, if Fudge refuses to 

>acknowledge the coming crisis because it threatens his position at the 

>Ministry, could Percy see him for what he is?  I'm not sure he could.  Percy 

>would NEVER knowingly participate in the Dark Arts, but I do think he could 

>be duped, despite his good intentions. 

Another worry for me about Percy is that Prof. Dumbledore asked Charlie near 
the end of GoF to contact his father to ask him to gather supporters inside 
the Ministry of Magic,  without arousing suspicion from Cornelius Fudge.  
Will this put Percy at odds with his father in the future and jeopardize the 
Order of the Phoenix's plans?  Will he feel the need to warn Fudge if he sees 
a conflict of style in dealing with Voldemort between his mentor - Fudge, and 
the Order of the Phoenix which his own father is a part of? (assuming the old 
gang is now called the Order of the Phoenix)  Will Arthur Weasley perhaps 
even be forced to keep things from Percy, if Percy continues to follow Fudge 
blindly?  What if his own son gets in the line of fire so to speak if Fudge's 
plans (or lack thereof) conflict with Dumbledore's group?
... and a thought about Bill Weasley totally unrelated to the above... maybe 
since he works for Gringotts, he may be asked to work with the Goblins to get 
them over to Dumbledore's side?

Lynn



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 15:44:30 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:44:30 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <e8.13613f04.28087760@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b76su+dnqq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16623

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., LynnP333 at a... wrote:
> Luce wrote:
> 
> >He is smart and 
> 
> >conscientious, but he is not very worldly and that is what worries 
me.  He 
> so 
> 
> >reveres Fudge.  If Fudge surrenders to ambition, if Fudge refuses 
to 
> 
> >acknowledge the coming crisis because it threatens his position at 
the 
> 
> >Ministry, could Percy see him for what he is?  I'm not sure he 
could.  Percy 
> 
> >would NEVER knowingly participate in the Dark Arts, but I do think 
he could 
> 
> >be duped, despite his good intentions. 
> 
> Another worry for me about Percy is that Prof. Dumbledore asked 
Charlie near 
> the end of GoF to contact his father to ask him to gather 
supporters inside 
> the Ministry of Magic,  without arousing suspicion from Cornelius 
Fudge.  
> Will this put Percy at odds with his father in the future and 
jeopardize the 
> Order of the Phoenix's plans?  Will he feel the need to warn Fudge 
if he sees 
> a conflict of style in dealing with Voldemort between his mentor - 
Fudge, and 
> the Order of the Phoenix which his own father is a part of? 
(assuming the old 
> gang is now called the Order of the Phoenix)  Will Arthur Weasley 
perhaps 
> even be forced to keep things from Percy, if Percy continues to 
follow Fudge 
> blindly?  What if his own son gets in the line of fire so to speak 
if Fudge's 
> plans (or lack thereof) conflict with Dumbledore's group?
> ... and a thought about Bill Weasley totally unrelated to the 
above... maybe 
> since he works for Gringotts, he may be asked to work with the 
Goblins to get 
> them over to Dumbledore's side?
> 
> Lynn

I think this very much depends on what Percy's opinion is of 
Dumbledore, of  which I am not sure.  He obviously revered him whilst 
at school, and may find it hard to move away from this sphere of 
influence.

Percy also has a good relationship ( on the whole ) with Harry, and I 
think that if he is told what happened to Harry has not been made up, 
he will believe it and accept that Fudge is burying his head in the 
sand.

Don't forget, as well, that Percy has just had a major knock-back at 
the MoM.  The boss he revered, whom he thought was Barty Crouch, 
ended up being none other than Voldemort (the imperious curse)!

Therefore, although there are obvious seeds of conflict there, I feel 
that it is too soon to write Percy off and think that he is blindly 
going to follow Fudge's lead.

Catherine






From kdelainehall at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 16:02:19 2001
From: kdelainehall at yahoo.com (kdelainehall at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:02:19 -0000
Subject: DADA in OoP
In-Reply-To: <9b69r3+a64l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b77ub+q4le@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16624

> can't imagine that Dumbledore would employ Fleur as DADA 
professor.  For one thing, she is too young and inexperienced, and he 
will probably want someone with experience of what it was like the 
first time around with Voldemort, in order to prepare the students 
properly. My money is on Moody (the Barty Crouch one probably 
expected the real Moody to be dead by the end of the year, hence the 
one year comment) or Arabella Figg. Catherine

*Apparates from lurkerdom to post*

I agree that Fleur is not a likely candidate, especially due to the 
unfortunate grindylow incident (after all, we've already seen an 
expert DADA teacher handle the little guys). She's expecting to get a 
job "here" though...maybe here is in the Hogwarts vicinity? She could 
be Rosmerta assistant barkeep. That would keep the wizards visiting, 
and she could learn lots of new English words.

I wonder if Dumbledore would put Moody in the situation where he 
would be in the same place as two of Voldie favorite targets 
(Dumbledore and Harry). Too much stress, maybe, for someone already 
jumping at shadows. Moody's an awesome dude though. And who wouldn't 
want that magical eye on the lookout for dangers at Hogwarts?

I admit to being influenced by the rumors of a female DADA teacher in 
Book 5, and I like the idea of a Mrs. Figg arriving on the scene, 
kneazles and ancient chocolate cake in tow. She'd provided a 
motherly, perhaps calming presence amidst the Voldie storm. And 
Crookshanks would have a buddy or two. They could gang up on Mrs. 
Norris. (don't get me wrong...I love cats and kneazles, no harm 
intended...)

KD pops out again.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 16:05:14 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:05:14 -0000
Subject: Snape's teaching style (was Snape Again)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC085D@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9b783q+hs8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16625

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
<absolutely huge snip>
> Being a "mean" teacher doesn't necessarily equate to being a "bad" 
teacher.
<another absolutely massive snip>
I think this is so true of Snape--admittedly, it's not the
> right approach for Neville. We teach the way we learn. By that I 
mean, if my
> learning style is visual, auditory, or kinetic, grasps concepts 
quickly or
> slowly, requires a lot of coaching, or requires a very clear set of 
tasks
> (Do this, then this, then this), that when I turn around to teach 
someone
> that same process, I'm going to start by teaching it using the 
preferred
> style I used to learn it. 
. Does he have the right to insult and bully them? No, but
> there's a thin line between bullying and challenging. I get the 
sense that
> Snape has one foot to either side of it.
> 
> Gwen (-dolyn Grace, as another Gwen has arrived recently)

I agree with practically eveything you write, with a few niggles here 
and there:- 

I agree that being a mean teacher doesn't really equate with being a 
bad teacher, but I think Snape goes beyond being merely just mean.  
He is a bully, he is malicious, he shows favouritism, he punishes 
needlessly, he doesn't encourage the brighter children in the class, 
he is sadistic (I have never forgiven him for his "I see no 
difference" comment to Hermione, on her teeth - that was extremely 
spiteful and unprofessional)...it goes on and on.  I've said in a 
different post that Snape could do well to learn from Lupin.  Look 
what he achieves from Neville in his very first lesson.

I also remember you writing that perhaps Snape should not modify his 
teaching method to accommodate Neville.  His job is to teach 
everyone, and to help each pupil reach their potential.  I find it 
hard to believe that he bothers about this as far as Neville is 
concerned.  I also expect that there are plenty of other pupils out 
there who are as bad at potions as Neville and are treated as badly - 
this is Harry's POV after all and these are the only potions lessons 
we are privy to.

I read your comments about your English teacher with interest.  I had 
a history teacher similar, who would deliberately put me down, 
firstly, because my father taught at the same school and she was 
determined not to show favouritism, and secondly because, like 
Hermione, I was a grade A, know-it-all pupil who found it difficult 
to make friends, and I'm sure she thought that I needed taking down a 
peg or too.  She is now one of my closest friends.  Everyone was 
terrified of her, everyone did extremely well in her classes because 
they were forced to work, but she also knew when to praise and  
encourage people and knew how to get the best out of them.

What I am trying to say, is that there is a difference between a 
mean, but good teacher, who knows how to get the best out of their 
students, and someone who is simply just mean.  Snape's meanness 
serves absolutely no purpose at all, except to intimidate the 
students he dislikes and I think that his overall teaching method is 
potentially destructive.

Catherine




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 16:10:00 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:10:00 -0400
Subject: Fleur
References: <9b77ub+q4le@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0b5001c0c434$31249b40$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16626

Perhaps Ms. Fleur could become a "secretary" or an "assistant" to a
professor?  Snape needs someone to help him sometimes, I think, or even AD.
There's got to be alot of mail that we don't hear about, and he needs
someone to sort it for priority.

Why must she become a bar-keep or other such job?  She wouldn't have gotten
into the tournie if she wasn't one of the best students at her school....

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************


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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 16:26:14 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's teaching style 
In-Reply-To: <9b783q+hs8o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413162614.89872.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16627

> but I think Snape goes beyond being merely just mean. 
> He is a bully, he is malicious, he shows favouritism, he punishes 
> needlessly, he doesn't encourage the brighter children in the
> class, 
> he is sadistic (I have never forgiven him for his "I see no 
> difference" comment to Hermione, on her teeth - that was extremely 
> spiteful and unprofessional)...it goes on and on.  

We'll accept that in the "solid grasp of his subject" department,
Snape is a good teacher.  He no doubt views Dumbledore's keeping him
on as proof that he's a good teacher.

But JKR said somewhere that Dumbledore believes that students should
have wide experiences in life and one of those experiences is bad
teachers like Snape (not a direct quote).  

How deflating Snape would find it if he knew that!

__________________________________________________
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Apr 13 16:57:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:57:19 -0500
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Hermione & OCD
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16628

Hi --

Demelza wrote:

> Nope. As I explained above, a hypothesis was put forth that Ron is
> jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Jealousy is an observed
> behavior. Hermione observed this behavior somewhere to make that
> assessment. Because the revelation occurs in Ch 18 GoF, the behavior
> had to have occurred before that chapter and perhaps before GoF.
> <snip> I looked through the data I had (the books by
> J.K. Rowling) for signs of this observed behavior. I couldn't find
> anything in the prior books or in the chapters leading up to Ch 18.
> GoF that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Again, I would
> be interested to find evidence to supports it.

There is evidence of jealousy in Chapter 7 of GoF.  It's not evidence of
Ron's jealousy of Harry's *fame,* but it is evidence of Ron's jealousy
of Harry's money.

"No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy about
the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his parents,
had much more money than he did."

[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as a
"small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it might be
a large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe it
here as a "small" fortune]

> Please see the above quoted section from GoF Ch 18. Harry is
> "incredulous" at this jealousy revelation.
> Later in Ch 18 can be found this curious passage:
> ***
> Harry didn't answer. Yes, everything did seem to happen to him
that
> was more or less what Hermione had said as they walked about the lake,
>
> and that was the reason, according to her, that Ron was no longer
> talking to him.
> ***
> "that was the reason, according to [Hermione], that Ron was no longer
> talking to him."
> Interesting choice of words J.K.Rowling has chosen. It doesn't say
> "that was the reason Ron was no longer talking to him". It qualifies
> that this is _Hermione's_ reason, with almost implying that Harry
> that's not Harry's reason too.

Yes, but he still doesn't think, "She's off her rocker; that's just
crazy.  I've seen no evidence of that."  No, he just seems to realize
that he's been blind not to see it before.

I don't think JKR has to give us factual evidence of *everything* in
order to interject something like this.  It didn't jar with me as a
reader.  I didn't think to myself, "Ron jealous?  Of Harry's fame?
Where'd *that* come from?"  No, I was reading along & thinking, "Well,
of course he is."  It fits IMO.

The R/H shippers are under the impression that Hermione spends all her
time, when not with Ron & Harry or just Harry, with Ron.  So, if true,
she's in a good position to know if he's jealous of Harry's fame. We as
readers might not be privy to it since we're only given Harry's POV for
the most part.

The important thing to me though is that Harry doesn't internally or
externally deny that Ron could be jealous of his fame and the attention
that he receives.  He may have been initially surprised to hear it
vocalized, and you're right, he ruminates about it later.  But, he
doesn't attempt to explain it away.

> Only AFTER Harry tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she
> noticed his demeanor and that she believed him.

She may have been "staring blankly back" as far as Harry's view was
concerned.  But, you can't possibly argue that he could have known what
was going on inside her head while she was staring back at him.  Just
because her expression, as far as shocked/stunned Harry is concerned,
didn't reflect what she she later claimed she was thinking doesn't mean
she *wasn't* thinking it.  We only have her word that she was thinking
it.  But, I believe her (and so does Harry).

> 1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or
> schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost

If the point of the activity was lost, Hermione wouldn't achieve top
marks.  She'd just obsess about the study schedules and the organization
of her notes but not do well on the exams.  We know this isn't true.

> 3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to exclusion of
> leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious
> economic necessity)

We don't know what she does with *all* her leisure time.  You can't say
that you know for sure what she's doing 100% of the time when she is not
with Harry.  We may have the impression from Harry that she spends alot
of time studying, but we have no evidence of this.  She also spends some
time playing chess with Ron (if you're a R/H shipper, you think she
plays alot of chess games with Ron).  If you're a Ginny fan, you believe
that she spends plenty of leisure time cultivating a friendship with
Ginny who's burgeoning into a lovely young lady who will be perfect for
Harry.  Point is: we don't know what she does with her "leisure time."

> 4. is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of
> morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or
> religious identification)

Maybe.  If SPEW is the only example though, I hardly think this
qualifies her for OCD.

> 8. shows rigidity and stubbornness"

Alot of people show rigidity & stubbornness.  She doesn't meet 4 of your
definitions IMO, so this alone (or even arguably in conjunction with #4)
above is, IMO, not nearly enough to make the assertion that she has OCD.

> In the meantime, she can be possibly diagnosed as Personality
> Disorder, NOS which is a category for disorders that do not meet
> criteria for any specific Personality Disorder.

LOL!  So .... we could all have a personality disorder under this random
catch-all categroy, yes?!  I guess if you're that determined to argue
that Hermione has a personality disorder ....

> Desiring academic acheivement is no different than desiring financial
> stability or fame. Both can be 'good' because it can serve as
> motivation. Both can be 'bad' when that desire becomes overwhelming to
>
> the point of self-destruction.

I see no evidence that Hermione is self-destructing, Demelza.  As
someone else noted, she does achieve her goals (academic success), in
contrast to Ron, who seemingly makes little or no effort to meet his own
ambitions or goals (or even recognize that he has them).

> Phobias can be debilitating to those who have them. For someone with a
>
> phobia , for example of frogs, to even be in the same room with the
> object is a tremendous accomplishment. Sure Ron was pale and
> diaphoretic, but he still faced Aragog and overcame his fear, even if
> it was a little. Hermione on the other hand, ran screaming from her
> boggart.

Please understand me.  I've said this several times now.  I tremendously
admire that Ron was able to follow the spiders into the forest!!  I do.
Really.  I was just arguing that it's not true to say that he "overcame"
his fear of spiders.  If he overcame that fear, he wouldn't still wince
or push back in his seat during Moody's lesson in GoF.  He does a great
job of facing Aragog boggart in PoA.  He's most definitely "confronted"
his fear head-on, and made very very admirable steps toward facing up to
it.  I merely objected to the use of the word "overcame."  That's all.
Put your weapons away.  <g>  Believe me, I have an intense phobia of
palmetto bugs (large flying cockroaches), and I wouldn't follow even one
of them anywhere, let alone a line of them.  I've been known to close
off a room until my husband comes home ... and then made him show me the
dead body (from a distance!) so he couldn't just say, "Yeah, I killed
it."

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Apr 13 17:11:35 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:11:35 -0000
Subject: Tonight (filk)
Message-ID: <9b7c07+1lr8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16629

Tonight (GoF Chapter 37, sort of)

Dedicated to Eggplant

(To the tune of ? duh! ? Tonight from West Side Story)

(The Scene: Station Nine and Three-Quarters.  Hogwarts students 
return home from another harrowing year) 

HARRY
Tonight Tonight
My life becomes so trite
On Privet Drive tonight I'll be back
This can't be right,
Like the Prince said, "Curs?d spite!"
As a climax this does somewhat lack.
On me the fate of Hogwarts may hinge
Death-Eaters at my name cringe
My strength is at its height
So how absurd 
To summer with Dursleys in the `burbs
Tonight!

RON & HERMIONE
Tonight we'll get
At long last some respite
It's not easy to be Harry's friend
Tonight tonight
We'll go home and sleep tight
And relax until the summer's end
Tonight there is no Secret Chamber 
Or Goblet of Flame or
Time-turning at midnight
We're out of school
Tranquility commences its rule
Tonight!

(Seeing that HARRY is disconsolate, RON and HERMIONE comfort him)

RON
For now recoup
Take time off to regroup
In ten weeks we're once more abuzz

HERMIONE
We may not like
What's coming down the pike

ALL
But we three will meet it when it does

RON
We'll dwell with elements of danger

HERMIONE
With circumstances stranger

HARRY
Yet braced to battle Hell

ALL
What fate inflicts
Will ready us to all face Year Six!
Farewell! 

(Exit severally)

    - CMC





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Fri Apr 13 17:18:03 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:18:03 -0000
Subject: Snape's teaching style (was Snape Again)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC085D@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9b7ccb+fbsc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16630

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
>> I think Amanda's hit the nail on the head, here. Snape does not 
seem to look back. On the odd occasion when he does reiterate the 
past, he's so bitter and narrow-minded that he can only present past 
events as a justification for his current course of action (like his 
explanation in the Shrieking Shack or to Harry about James, both in 
PoA).<<
<snip>
>> Another insight I had while writing this: Snape is broken, we all 
can see that, but part of why he *stays* broken is because he doesn't 
examine his past or make any attempt to see why it has shaped him to 
be the way he is. He is bitter and resentful and he disdains 
everything but his own extreme sense of honour and conduct (which is 
highly skewed). As I said, occasionally something really does 
penetrate, and he may think about it enough to see the logic of it 
(Occam's razor, in the case of the 'prank') and make a conscious 
choice to change Supposition to Fact in the file cabinet of his Id 
and fold it in to his new operating paradigm. But I think he doesn't 
internalize that realization--that is, it still doesn't change how he 
feels or how he chooses to interact with that past. It's still past; 
therefore there is an oak door between it and where he is now.<<

I think Snape really wants to bury the past, in a way. He won't 
acknowledge much of it because it's probably extremely painful (and 
humiliating) to acknowledge, especially with the type of pride and 
sense of "honour and conduct" that he has. Severus has this mentality 
of "what's done is done, and can't be changed." So, when "what's 
done" actually alters his way of being (i.e., his bitterness, etc.)he 
simply moves on with it. Does he acknowledge to himself the 
difference? Yes, but he won't make any move to change that 
alteration, because the past is behind him, and he feels that he 
cannot relive or fiddle with what has already occurred.

>> Well, I'd definitely say that he wouldn't mind getting 
acknowledgement for doing Stuff, as evidenced by how he responds to 
Fudge in PoA: "Thank you very much indeed, Minister," etc., but I'm 
more inclined to say that we all *know* what frustrates Snape (see 
the Daily Prophet personals--nudge, nudge, wink, wink)!<<

I think that Snape feels rather robbed of his recognition. If he was 
such a helpful spy against Voldy, wouldn't he have gotten the Order 
of Merlin by now? But, because his spy work is kept rather under-
wraps, he doesn't have that recognition, and he no doubt feels a bit 
slighted. Therefore, when he loses his capture of Black, as well as 
the O of M AGAIN in PoA, he goes ballistic.

As for what *really* frustrates Snape-- well, you said comical, but I 
think this is absolutely true. Snape is by far one of the youngest 
teachers at Hogwarts; he's only about 35, while Professors 
McGonagall, Dumbledore, Flitwick, etc., are much older. They *taught* 
young Severus when *he* was at Hogwarts. There's hardly anyone in his 
age group at Hogwarts (well, Lupin) much less a 20ish or 30ish, or 
even 40ish woman. You know, I've seen several fanfics that imply that 
Snape's rather unlovely appearance is more of a guise, because he 
doesn't want any 7th year girls to get crushes, lest something 
develop from that. Hey, could be true. :)

>> But we all learned with amazing efficacy. Being a "mean" teacher 
doesn't necessarily equate to being a "bad" teacher.<<
<snip>
>>I think this is so true of Snape--admittedly, it's not the right 
approach for Neville. We teach the way we learn. By that I mean, if 
my learning style is visual, auditory, or kinetic, grasps concepts 
quickly or slowly, requires a lot of coaching, or requires a very 
clear set of tasks (Do this, then this, then this), that when I turn 
around to teach someone that same process, I'm going to start by 
teaching it using the preferred style I used to learn it. Assuming 
Snape was an above average student, one who cottoned on pretty 
quickly and didn't need a lot of minute direction, he's going to 
teach that way, and assume that anyone who can't do it like that is 
a "dunderhead." Snape also has the kind of impatient personality that 
doesn't suffer fools well. Where he fails _with Neville_ is that he 
makes no attempt to alter his method to find Neville's preferred 
learning style. However, should Snape be expected to tailor his 
teaching style to every student? That's a tough ethical question. 
Does he have the right to insult and bully them? No, but there's a 
thin line between bullying and challenging. I get the sense that 
Snape has one foot to either side of it.<<

Yes. Snape doesn't want to befriend most of his colleagues, much less 
his students. He teaches so that the students can *learn*, not so 
that they can have a good old time going to school and having classes 
and sharing their deepest feelings with their teachers. He's quite a 
good teacher, IMO, from what we've seen. Quite ruthless, but he gets 
the results. With Neville, I think he views Neville as a sort of 
hopeless case, and he is easily frustrated by the boy's shortcomings. 
His reaction with the barrage of insults usually only manages to 
frighten Neville even more, which causes him to screw up even more, 
which makes Snape even more frustrated. But, Snape's not going to 
make any moves to stop that sort of a cycle. It's not his style. He 
just teaches; if a kid doesn't "get it", too bad, you fail, move on.

The main complaint I would have with Snape as a teacher would be the 
obvious shows of favoritism to certain students (Slytherins). I 
despise favoritism in the classroom, but again, it's not Snape's 
style to treat every kid with that "we're all special" attitude. He 
obviously dislikes Gryffindors (or anyone with whom Harry 
associates), and he shows it.

>> It's difficult to see how Snape can get over a lot of this stuff 
in himself. He's so patently broken, and with his refusal to look 
back and examine that aspect of himself, whether because of the pain 
or the psychological barriers or the need to break with his past, I 
wonder whether he will learn to accept that he doesn't have to 
disdain everyone and everything. I see no future in which Snape is 
a "nice" person, but I can see him forced to come to grips with the 
events who broke him in the first place, and finally moving on.<<

I personally cannot wait for this point in the HP books. I feel 
confident that Snape will be "redeemed", and will come to terms with 
the events that seemed to have ruined and now unconsciously haunt his 
life. In the meantime, I suppose I'll just have to busy myself with 
the fanfic about it. :)

Lyda




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 17:25:52 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:25:52 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
Message-ID: <LAW2-F35ZhCl8aii08N00006090@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16631

Thanks for the kind words :) I don't say Percy won't have his problems, but 
I think the old Weasley integrity will win out in the end!


>From: driveslucy at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:08:20 EDT
>
>Morag writes:
>
> > Where Bagman is cynical, Percy is
> >  idealistic (if a bit silly - but then, he does win).  Percy may be a 
>bit
>of
> >  a stuffed shirt at times, bless him, but he has high moral standards,
>which
> >  is why I repudiate any suggestion he will turn to the Dark Side.
>
>Morag, I thought your analysis of Percy was dead on, I could have quoted 
>the
>whole thing.  I, too, have a soft spot for Percy.  What can I say?  I've
>always gone for the bookish, bespectacled type.  He is smart and
>conscientious, but he is not very worldly and that is what worries me.  He 
>so
>reveres Fudge.  If Fudge surrenders to ambition, if Fudge refuses to
>acknowledge the coming crisis because it threatens his position at the
>Ministry, could Percy see him for what he is?  I'm not sure he could.  
>Percy
>would NEVER knowingly participate in the Dark Arts, but I do think he could
>be duped, despite his good intentions.  Once I see what JKR does with Fudge
>in OoP perhaps I will relax but, right now, I am more afraid for Percy than 
>I
>am for any other Weasley.
>
>Luce

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 01:38:59 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:38:59 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1016eZq0DAtTp0000582b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16632




I wrote:
> > Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see
> > Snape do (as opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that he
> > may have done), that puts him in a positive light?
Magda wrote:
>In CoS: when Gilderoy Lockhart walks into the staff room after
>McGonagall has informed the staff about Ginny's abduction, Snape is
>the first to react by offering GL the "opportunity" to go after the
>monster.  "Just the man we need!  The very man!"  All the staff fall
>into line immediately.  A nice scene.

Yes, and the duelling club was hugely enjoyable too. On these occasions, he 
is squaring up to someone more like an equal.  But I'm only going to count 
it if he does something good or kind (other than his plain duty).

>In GoF: Fudge and Dumbledore are arguing about the return of Lord V.
>and Fudge is suggesting angrily that Harry's word is not to be
>trusted because he might be, you know, getting sort of weird or
>something.  It's the opportunity Snape has been waiting for all
>through the books: someone in a superiour position who can expell
>Harry Potter from Hogwarts.  Oh joy, oh bliss.  Dumbledore is not
>winning the argument; Fudge is the minister.  All Snape has to do is
>keep his mouth shut and no more Harry Potter.
>
>And what does he do?  He steps forward, rips up his sleeve and
>displays the proof of his former alliance with the DE's, shows that
>Dumbledore and Harry are right and blows his best chance yet to get
>rid of the kid he despises.  It's a great moment.
>
>Other than that, you're right; positive light doesn't shine on Snape.

OK, you got me.  He didn't have to do that.  In a *minor* quibble, Fudge is 
never suggesting expelling Harry (nor, I imagine, would he have the power to 
do it directly), and the discussion has moved on from whether Harry can be 
trusted, to the wider question of Voldemort's return...BUT it is still 
revealing something he must be ashamed of in order to back up Harry - and in 
front of Harry too.  Not easy for him.  It will be very interesting to see 
how he treats Harry in the future.  My guess is he'll still be pretty harsh, 
but will stop pretending Harry enjoys his celebrity.
Thanks.  That's why this list is so good.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 17:58:40 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:58:40 +0100
Subject: How wealthy is Harry Potter?  (was Re: Ron's Jealousy of Harry...)
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com> <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16633

Demelza quoted:

"No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy about the
fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his parents, had
much more money than he did."

Penny commented:

<<<[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as a
"small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it might be a
large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe it here
as a "small" fortune]>>>

Interesting.  Perhaps this is a problem with UK to US translation:  In
British English, "a small fortune" can, and usually does, mean a very large
fortune, not, as might be assumed, a modest fortune.   Admittedly, it's a
rather confusing use of the word "small," but it is an emphatic use, and I
think JKR intended that phrase to mean that Harry was left a massive amount
of money.

**
Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary: -'small fortune'- [colloq] - great wealth; a
huge sum of money.
**

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm










From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 18:15:30 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:15:30 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b61bt+c5d6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7fo2+goil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16634

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> 
> Respectfully to your views -- I must say I think this is rubbish...
> Even if a student gets away with a lot (and Snape starting picking 
on 
> Harry in their first lesson so that's not it), there is NO excuse 
for 
> a teacher to be unfair, humiliate students or be abusive.


I never said it was fair for Snape to treat Harry and Neville as he 
does.  All I said was that there is more to it then what we know.

There is also no excuse for the way Harry has treated some of his 
teachers.  He can be rather rude at times and he does seem to get 
away with breaking the rules quite a bit.  It's just that everyone 
tends to gloss over what Harry does.

Koinonia




From kdelainehall at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 18:33:46 2001
From: kdelainehall at yahoo.com (kdelainehall at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:33:46 -0000
Subject: Fleur
In-Reply-To: <0b5001c0c434$31249b40$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9b7gqa+bp5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16635

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
Perhaps Ms. Fleur could become a "secretary" or an "assistant" 
to a professor? Why must she become a bar-keep or other such 
job?  

I don't think it's so very down market, being a barkeep. I've always 
cherished a slightly romantic notion of the British pub, however 
(especially if it is one frequented by Hogwarts teachers). Anyway, 
she could always branch out and open a cafe' featuring light fare 
for those magical folk concerned about fitting in their robes.

I guess I pictured Fleur's job as the one you have in your gap 
year, earning some sickles and life experience before going on 
to bigger things. I'm sure Fleur is destined for grande things in 
France.

I don't have a copy of GoF to hand, but was the criteria for being 
chosen by the cup for the Triwizard competion being the best 
student? I thought it was very general, along the lines of who is 
most worthy, although I'm sure academic standing would enter 
into being the list of candidates presented to the cup.

KD *Wishing for a butterbeer this very moment*




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Fri Apr 13 18:34:51 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:34:51 -0000
Subject: Fleur
In-Reply-To: <0b5001c0c434$31249b40$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9b7gsb+v4gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16636

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
>> Why must she become a bar-keep or other such job?  She wouldn't 
have gotten into the tournie if she wasn't one of the best students 
at her school....<<

I've always seen her coming back as a 'student teacher' of sorts, or 
possible as a substitute teacher, in the event that one of the 
regular Hogwarts staff is indisposed for a while. :)

Lyda




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 18:54:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:54:25 -0000
Subject: Snape on Lupin - DADA/Fleur - Draco - Harry at Ball
Message-ID: <9b7i11+tmtv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16637

Amanda wrote:

>in Lupin's version, it was all Sirius' joke, and he and James
>were not part of it. This means that some of the anger Snape's been
>carrying around for years is unfounded--if Snape accepts what Lupin
>says.

FWIW, I believe Lupin's version.  I don't think Remus, even at 16, 
would have found the prospect of killing someone, anyone, remotely 
amusing.  In fact, if he =had= killed or bitten Snape, it would likely 
have been absolutely devastating to his hopes for a normal life (and, 
one hopes, he'd also feel responsible and horribly guilty).  I don't 
know what the MOM does to punish werewolves who deliberately 
arrange to encounter another person during a transformation, but I 
don't imagine it looks kindly on it.

Sirius might think that having a werewolf friend has enormous prank 
potential; Remus understands the stakes much better.  We know that he 
was reckless, because he said there were plenty of close shaves due to 
his running around the grounds and village with only dog-Sirius and 
stag-James to hold him in check, but it's one thing to be reckless and 
quite another to send a particular person to meet you face to face in 
an isolated place like the Shack.

I guess it is too much to expect that Snape might have considered 
these facts before hearing Remus's version--and he's had 18 years to 
brood about it, so he isn't likely to suddenly turn around and say, 
"hmm, Lupin was a victim of that prank same as I was"--but I think it 
will sink in now that he's heard what Lupin has to say.  My view of 
Snape resonates with yours, Amanda:  he's a man who can change his 
mind, but he's unlikely to announce the fact or apologize.  Further 
thoughts, Snapefans?

Re: the promised female DADA professor:  Fleur would be a natural, 
having demonstrated her skill at dealing with dark creatures already 
(Grindylows aren't native to the continent [FB], so I'll cut her some 
slack on not knowing how to handle them--bet she's brushed up on them 
since that experience...).  However, if Lupin was right in feeling 
that he had to resign, what would the response be to hiring another 
dark being (to coin a phrase) as a DADA professor?

We don't know too much about veela, and less about what constitutes 
"dark creatures" or "dark beings," but we do know that when provoked, 
they turn into very dangerous beings indeed.  Of course, Fleur is only 
1/4 veela.  She probably can't turn into a bird of prey at will--but I 
bet she has a mean temper!

Maybe the best DADA teachers are the ones who are intimately 
acquainted with the dark arts/dark side from the inside?:  Lupin, 
Crouch Jr. (say what you like about the man, he was a good teacher 
<g>).  Ed, I do like your thought that we'll get the real Moody.  As 
Dave wrote, in a way he =would= be a new DADA teacher; it would also 
be interesting to see how he differs from his impersonator.  You 
couldn't blame him, though, if he insisted on retiring to Majorca 
after that extremely unrestful year.  

Catherine wrote:

>I think that it would be pretty insulting to Harry if 
>he were to be taught by someone he beat in the tournament. 

and Monika wrote:

>She did very poorly in the Triwizard Tournament

::Amy sees her pet, Peeve, coming and breathes deeply::  We can't 
conclude much from Harry's supposed winning of the tournament.  
=Crouch cheated on his behalf.=  Who knows how things would have 
worked out if not for this huge handicap?  For example, Fleur might 
have gotten to the cup first if she hadn't been Stunned.

Except for being happy that F&G have the money, I wish they hadn't 
awarded the thing at all.  If a Muggle tournament were exposed as 
involving that level of cheating, its results would be disqualified.  
Poor Fleur and Viktor will never get their due.  It's as if Cincinnati 
were forever remembered as the winners of the 1919 World Series (for 
those not acquainted with the scandal, several members of the Chicago 
White Sox lost it on purpose, having been bribed/coerced by gamblers 
hoping to clean up on a long shot).  There was no winner that year; 
the contest was never truly played.  Likewise, Harry will be in the 
record books forever as the winner of the 1994-95 Triwizard 
Tournament, but he knows better, and so do we.  (He only credits 
Cedric with the win, though, when really he should consider that Fleur 
and Krum didn't get fair play.)

Jim Ferer on Draco:

>If anything changes him it won't be something that scares him for his 
>own pale ***

Oh, now that's an image to give me nightmares.  I'd better think of 
something more appealing, quick...like the contents of one of Snape's 
jars, say.

Cap'n Kathy wrote:

> >why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't look
> >to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes
> >lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she
> >looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.

Which raises another question: what's Harry's excuse?  He's almost as 
insensitive to Parvati as Ron is to Padma.

Okay, I know the answer to that.  He's 14 years old, he's bummed that 
he has to be at this stupid Ball at all, and he's really bummed that 
his crush is dancing with El Handsome Quidditch Captain Champion Who's 
the Only Seeker Who Ever Beat Him to Boot.  Maybe 14-year-old boys 
shouldn't be allowed on dates at all; they can't be expected to treat 
girls with simple human kindness.

My, I seem to be getting into a snit about Harry, just in time for 
Harry Week.  Don't worry, I do love him!  (Note to self: before 
Monday, reread scene where Harry frees Dobby.)

Oh, here's Amanda to remind me how lovable Harry can be:

>The only condition he puts on Fred and George at the end of GoF, when 
he gives them the prize money, is that they get Ron a
>new set of dress robes.

. . . "and say they're from you."  Now =that's= sensitivity.  I knew 
he could do it.

Mrs. G. Weasley wrote:

>No one here knows me (well, almost nobody - ::waves at Eb and Amy 
Z::)

Well, I =thought= we were friends, but here you've graduated from 
George_Weasleys_Girlfriend to Mrs. G. Weasley and you didn't even 
invite me to the wedding.  ::pout::

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
 "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry 
 Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially.
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 19:01:31 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:01:31 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <20010413143248.69261.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b7ieb+msc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16638


> 
> Percy is just a kid growing up who's not as adult as he thinks he 
is.
> 
>

Thanks for responding, Magda!  Those are really good points.  Percy 
definitely needs to grow up a bit and he definitely thinks he is the 
epitome of maturity (which is often played out hilariously).  

I still worry about Percy making a poor judgment related to his 
responsibilities - after all, he is only 18 years old or so and 
already working full time in the 'government' offices of the wizard 
world.  That may be too much for him.

I also read (Catherine, I think) that Percy may rethink things at the 
Ministry anyway, after having been falsely led to believe that he was 
recieving orders from his boss Crouch when in reality he was not.  I'd 
like to think that Percy will not continue to be as eager to please 
those at the MOM, but then again, I really worry that he will be even 
more eager to prove himself worthy of rising up in the ranks.

As for him being obsessed, I still think he is, even though he does 
have time to mature.  Remember in CoS when Harry and Ron found Percy 
sitting in the back of a store reading some dusty old book about 
Prefects Who Gained Power or something like that?  Or that he talked 
nonstop about first being a prefect and then Head Boy?  Ron warned 
Harry not to ask Percy about his new at the MOM or Harry'd be bored to 
death - Percy doesn't quite understand that others don't have the 
ambitions and interests that he does (kind of like the way we all are 
about HP in general).  That's obsession.

--j




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Apr 13 19:08:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:08:36 -0000
Subject: How wealthy is Harry Potter?  (was Re: Ron's Jealousy of Harry...)
In-Reply-To: <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9b7irk+oo1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16639

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Demelza quoted:
> 
> "No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy 
about the
> fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his 
parents, had
> much more money than he did."
> 
> Penny commented:
> 
> <<<[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth 
as a
> "small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it 
might be a
> large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe 
it here
> as a "small" fortune]>>>
> 
> Interesting.  Perhaps this is a problem with UK to US translation:  
In
> British English, "a small fortune" can, and usually does, mean a 
very large
> fortune, not, as might be assumed, a modest fortune.   Admittedly, 
it's a
> rather confusing use of the word "small," but it is an emphatic 
use, and I
> think JKR intended that phrase to mean that Harry was left a 
massive amount
> of money.
> 
> **
> Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary: -'small fortune'- [colloq] - great 
wealth; a
> huge sum of money.
> **
> 
> Neil


I agree with you Neil. I think the American English definition of 
a "small fortune" means lots of money too. I've heard it used in that 
context to describe 'modestly' a large amount of money. But there 
could be regional differences too in how it's interpreted.

I have the impression that Harry's money in Gringotts is enough to 
cover tuition, room and board, plus clothing, books, and 
miscellaneous expeditures for 7 years. LOL, for all we know, Harry 
could be as wealthy as the Weasley's, but because the Weasley's money 
is spent on the daily living expenses of Arthur, Molly, the Burrow, 
and the dependent Weasley children, it appears less.

:-)Milz





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 19:08:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:08:59 -0000
Subject: HP goes PC? (was Re: Elf Magic / Apparating)
In-Reply-To: <9b70f2+trao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7isb+10nhu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16640

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> In my opinion, House-Elf magic is some of the most powerful magic 
> there is. Dobby is capable of amazing magical feats without a wand 
or 
> incantation. He Apparates (the effect is the same, although he is 
> proabably not using the Wizard spell to do it but a House-Elf 
> version, which is why it works in Hogwarts). He can close a 
powerful 
> magical portal at will. He can drastically affect a Bludger, which 
is 
> not easy to do or players would do it all the time. 
> 
> Why do you think House-Elves are so enslaved? It seems to me that 
> somewhere back in antiquity, the Wizards found that it was "best" 
to 
> control the power that was so much greater than their own by 
cultural 
> means, rather like Apartheid controlled a large and potentially 
power 
> majority in South Africa. Hermione's clumsy attempts at House-Elf 
> Liberation may just be the gentle stirrings of a great social 
> upheaval which will bring to the surface a group weilding 
incredible 
> magical powers. The Wizard community will be faced with changing 
> their deep-seated prejudices or finding themselves up against an 
> incredibly dangerous and powerful enemy: their erstwhile slaves.
> 

I agree that it will be interesting to see how JKR deals with the 
elves and their special brand of magic - will they collectively join 
the battle against Voldemort? Will we see more Winkies, torn by 
opposing loyalties? (Winky, BTW, is one of the most tragic characters 
we have encountered so far, IMO) 
However, I have to say that I personally prefer the elves' attachment 
to humans to be natural rather than cultural. (Please note that I've 
used the word 'preference' - there isn't canonical proof that it is 
so, and JKR may develop the elf issue in either direction). 
Why do I prefer it that way? Well, in the real world that we live in, 
ALL differences of class, power, status are the outcome of historical 
contingencies and cultural rationalizations. In this world I'm as PC 
as you can find. But, for the sake of variety and pure difference, 
I'd rather have in a fantasy book humanoid creatures that are truly 
different from humans; whose difference is innate, not acquired. 
I've said it before that I think that it also makes the moral issues 
more interesting, because it's not a situation we humans, in the real 
world, have ever had to deal with. For instance, *is* it fair to 
treat an elf as an equal? It would be preposterous to even ask 
this question here, in the real world. In HP, the question is 
valid and much more intriguing and challenging if house elves have an 
innate tendency to serve humans. 
The same, BTW, goes for giants. I'd rather that giants were truly 
more ferocious and violent in their *nature* than if it was all 
"cultural conditioning" and prejudice. 

If I could have a quiet word with JKR, I'd ask her not to go too PC 
with HP. 


Naama






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 19:22:30 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
In-Reply-To: <9b7ieb+msc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413192230.96937.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16641

> As for him being obsessed, I still think he is, even though he does
> have time to mature.  Remember in CoS when Harry and Ron found
> Percy 
> sitting in the back of a store reading some dusty old book about 
> Prefects Who Gained Power or something like that?  Or that he
> talked 
> nonstop about first being a prefect and then Head Boy?  Ron warned 
> Harry not to ask Percy about his new at the MOM or Harry'd be bored
> to 
> death - Percy doesn't quite understand that others don't have the 
> ambitions and interests that he does (kind of like the way we all
> are about HP in general).  That's obsession.


Well, then a lot of people in the first throes of enthusiasm about
jobs or pets or love are obsessed.  I still think it's just immaturity.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Apr 13 19:30:49 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:30:49 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
Message-ID: <9b7k59+gttr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16642

You can tell I just spent an hour reading the penultimate few chapters 
of PoA.  *chuckle*

I've got more thoughts about Crookshanks.

I'm not sure if Ron's phobia of Spiders came up in PoA. I can't 
remember. I do, however, know that Crookshanks leapt into Hermione's 
lap with a large spider in his mouth and watched Ron the whole time he 
ate it, even after Ron made it clear he was disturbed: "Does he have 
to eat that here?"  

To me, anyway, that implies it did come up at some point, and 
Crookshanks knew enough to use it against Ron.

Also, Sirius says that Crookshanks stole Neville's list from Neville's 
bedside table at his behest.  This tells me that Crookshanks is very 
much unlike a normal cat.  Normal cats don't follow orders, although 
they can be trained. I sincerely doubt that Sirius could train a cat 
to get into a place he himself couldn't get into and steal something 
for him to facilitate his *getting* in.

Sirius also says he is able to communicate with Crookshanks, and earn 
his trust.  Also not something doable with a normal cat.  You can earn 
a normal cat's trust, but the communication is more questionable. 
Again, you can train a cat, but I again doubt Sirius had the means to 
feed Crookshanks tasty tidbits as a reward.  Sirius himself looked all 
wan and starved.

Crookshanks also is capable of retaining information for a good while 
since he can remember how to turn off the Whomping Willow (which 
apparently resets itself after a period of time). He turned it off so 
Harry and Hermione could follow after Ron, and he turned it off again 
so they could emerge from the passage with the chained Pettigrew.

One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is at 
least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a Kneazle 
who is part normal cat):  his name.

A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]

Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!

Indigo
[a good hot bath and a good book do wonders for the mind!]





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 19:47:48 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:47:48 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7k59+gttr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7l54+ssat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16643

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> You can tell I just spent an hour reading the penultimate few 
chapters 
> of PoA.  *chuckle*
> 
> I've got more thoughts about Crookshanks.
> 
> I'm not sure if Ron's phobia of Spiders came up in PoA. I can't 
> remember. I do, however, know that Crookshanks leapt into Hermione's 
> lap with a large spider in his mouth and watched Ron the whole time 
he 
> ate it, even after Ron made it clear he was disturbed: "Does he have 
> to eat that here?"  
> 
> To me, anyway, that implies it did come up at some point, and 
> Crookshanks knew enough to use it against Ron.
> 
> Also, Sirius says that Crookshanks stole Neville's list from 
Neville's 
> bedside table at his behest.  This tells me that Crookshanks is very 
> much unlike a normal cat.  Normal cats don't follow orders, although 
> they can be trained. I sincerely doubt that Sirius could train a cat 
> to get into a place he himself couldn't get into and steal something 
> for him to facilitate his *getting* in.
> 
> Sirius also says he is able to communicate with Crookshanks, and 
earn 
> his trust.  Also not something doable with a normal cat.  You can 
earn 
> a normal cat's trust, but the communication is more questionable. 
> Again, you can train a cat, but I again doubt Sirius had the means 
to 
> feed Crookshanks tasty tidbits as a reward.  Sirius himself looked 
all 
> wan and starved.
> 
> Crookshanks also is capable of retaining information for a good 
while 
> since he can remember how to turn off the Whomping Willow (which 
> apparently resets itself after a period of time). He turned it off 
so 
> Harry and Hermione could follow after Ron, and he turned it off 
again 
> so they could emerge from the passage with the chained Pettigrew.
> 
> One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is at 
> least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a Kneazle 
> who is part normal cat):  his name.
> 
> A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> 
> Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!
> 
> Indigo
> [a good hot bath and a good book do wonders for the mind!]

Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your citations 
equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd 
Animagus, though?

Haggridd




From moey at sugarquill.com  Fri Apr 13 19:51:00 2001
From: moey at sugarquill.com (moey at sugarquill.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:51:00 -0000
Subject: How wealthy is Harry Potter?  (was Re: Ron's Jealousy of Harry...)
In-Reply-To: <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9b7lb4+fe8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16644

Hi!
 
> "No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy 
about the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his 
parents, had much more money than he did."

> Penny commented:
> <<<[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth 
as a "small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it 
might be a large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does 
describe it here as a "small" fortune]>>>

Neil FFA:
> Interesting.  Perhaps this is a problem with UK to US translation:  
In British English, "a small fortune" can, and usually does, mean a 
very large fortune, not, as might be assumed, a modest fortune.   
Admittedly, it's a rather confusing use of the word "small," but it 
is an emphatic use, and I think JKR intended that phrase to mean that 
Harry was left a massive amount of money.
> **
> Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary: -'small fortune'- [colloq] - great 
wealth; a huge sum of money.
> **

Thanks Neil. :) I really don't think that it has anything to do with 
UK to US translation.  The term *small fortune* is a phrase I've 
heard and used, so it's not unknown to Americans.  The term fortune 
means (in regard to wealth) a large sum of money.  It's amusing that 
we can refer to a fortune as small.  It's one of those beautiful 
oxymoronic phrases such as 'deafening silence' that helps make the 
English language so much fun. <g>

Therefore, I'm going to have to say that I believe Harry's fortune is 
*large* in the *massive* sense (neither of which I will define <vbg>) 
and I think that is what JKR is trying to convey.

~Moey  
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" 
        -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Apr 13 20:01:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:01:40 -0500
Subject: How wealthy is Harry Potter?  (was Re: Ron's Jealousyof Harry...)
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com> <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net> <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <3AD75B24.89B98585@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16645

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> Penny commented:
>
> <<<[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as a
>
> "small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it might
> be a large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does
> describe it here as a "small" fortune]>>>
>
> Interesting.  Perhaps this is a problem with UK to US translation:  In
>
> British English, "a small fortune" can, and usually does, mean a very
> large fortune, not, as might be assumed, a modest fortune.
> Admittedly, it's a rather confusing use of the word "small," but it is
> an emphatic use, and I think JKR intended that phrase to mean that
> Harry was left a massive amount of money.

I stand corrected!!  :--)  I too have usually taken "small fortune" to
mean a rather large sum of money.  My point really was with Rita's
nitpicky post that engendered so much debate of late.  I was merely
pointing out that Echo (I think?) was usually the literal language that
JKR used.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 20:07:06 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:07:06 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7l54+ssat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7m9a+sijm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16646

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > You can tell I just spent an hour reading the penultimate few 
> chapters 
> > of PoA.  *chuckle*
> > 
> > I've got more thoughts about Crookshanks.
> > 
> > I'm not sure if Ron's phobia of Spiders came up in PoA. I can't 
> > remember. I do, however, know that Crookshanks leapt into 
Hermione's 
> > lap with a large spider in his mouth and watched Ron the whole 
time 
> he 
> > ate it, even after Ron made it clear he was disturbed: "Does he 
have 
> > to eat that here?"  
> > 
> > To me, anyway, that implies it did come up at some point, and 
> > Crookshanks knew enough to use it against Ron.
> > 
> > Also, Sirius says that Crookshanks stole Neville's list from 
> Neville's 
> > bedside table at his behest.  This tells me that Crookshanks is 
very 
> > much unlike a normal cat.  Normal cats don't follow orders, 
although 
> > they can be trained. I sincerely doubt that Sirius could train a 
cat 
> > to get into a place he himself couldn't get into and steal 
something 
> > for him to facilitate his *getting* in.
> > 
> > Sirius also says he is able to communicate with Crookshanks, and 
> earn 
> > his trust.  Also not something doable with a normal cat.  You can 
> earn 
> > a normal cat's trust, but the communication is more questionable. 
> > Again, you can train a cat, but I again doubt Sirius had the 
means 
> to 
> > feed Crookshanks tasty tidbits as a reward.  Sirius himself 
looked 
> all 
> > wan and starved.
> > 
> > Crookshanks also is capable of retaining information for a good 
> while 
> > since he can remember how to turn off the Whomping Willow (which 
> > apparently resets itself after a period of time). He turned it 
off 
> so 
> > Harry and Hermione could follow after Ron, and he turned it off 
> again 
> > so they could emerge from the passage with the chained Pettigrew.
> > 
> > One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is at 
> > least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a 
Kneazle 
> > who is part normal cat):  his name.
> > 
> > A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> > 
> > Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!
> > 
> > Indigo
> > [a good hot bath and a good book do wonders for the mind!]
> 
> Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your 
citations 
> equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd 
> Animagus, though?
> 
> Haggridd



I had always thought that Crookshanks was his name because he 
had "bandy legs"

crook=crooked
shanks=legsn (shank bone)


I looked into this and yes ,its an old Engish term for crooked legs

claire :)




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Fri Apr 13 20:17:34 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:17:34 -0000
Subject: Snape on Lupin - DADA/Fleur - Draco - Harry at Ball
In-Reply-To: <9b7i11+tmtv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7msu+diru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16647

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Re: the promised female DADA professor:  Fleur would be a natural, 
> having demonstrated her skill at dealing with dark creature
> already (Grindylows aren't native to the continent [FB], so I'll 
> cut her some slack on not knowing how to handle them--bet she's 
> brushed up on them since that experience...).  However, if Lupin 
> was right in feeling that he had to resign, what would the response 
> be to hiring another dark being (to coin a phrase) as a DADA 
> professor?



I don't think Fleur would be a good canidate for the DADA professor 
because of her age. She may have more skill in dealing with dark 
creatures than was shown in GOF but I think Dumbledore will hire 
someone who has been around the block a few times so to speak. Like 
Arabella Figg or the real Moody. I think they need to have someone 
teaching that was around when Voldemort was in power the first time. 
Someone who knows what these kids will be facing and I just don't see 
Fleur having that kind of knowledge base.

Lupin resigned because Snape made it public knowledge that he was a 
werewolf. Lupin knew the kind of prejudices the wizarding world has 
for werewolves and he would no longer be accepted. It doesn't matter 
that he was an excellent teacher, the best they've had in the past 3 
years, he would be seen as danger to their kids. As for hiring 
another dark being. I don't see that as a problem if it's someone 
Dumbledore knows and trusts.

Cheers,
            Kristin




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Apr 13 20:23:37 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:23:37 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7l54+ssat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7n89+jbdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16648

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > You can tell I just spent an hour reading the penultimate few 
> chapters 
> > of PoA.  *chuckle*
> > 
> > I've got more thoughts about Crookshanks.
> > 
> > I'm not sure if Ron's phobia of Spiders came up in PoA. I can't 
> > remember. I do, however, know that Crookshanks leapt into 
Hermione's 
> > lap with a large spider in his mouth and watched Ron the whole 
time 
> he 
> > ate it, even after Ron made it clear he was disturbed: "Does he 
have 
> > to eat that here?"  
> > 
> > To me, anyway, that implies it did come up at some point, and 
> > Crookshanks knew enough to use it against Ron.
> > 
> > Also, Sirius says that Crookshanks stole Neville's list from 
> Neville's 
> > bedside table at his behest.  This tells me that Crookshanks is 
very 
> > much unlike a normal cat.  Normal cats don't follow orders, 
although 
> > they can be trained. I sincerely doubt that Sirius could train a 
cat 
> > to get into a place he himself couldn't get into and steal 
something 
> > for him to facilitate his *getting* in.
> > 
> > Sirius also says he is able to communicate with Crookshanks, and 
> earn 
> > his trust.  Also not something doable with a normal cat.  You can 
> earn 
> > a normal cat's trust, but the communication is more questionable. 
> > Again, you can train a cat, but I again doubt Sirius had the 
means 
> to 
> > feed Crookshanks tasty tidbits as a reward.  Sirius himself 
looked 
> all 
> > wan and starved.
> > 
> > Crookshanks also is capable of retaining information for a good 
> while 
> > since he can remember how to turn off the Whomping Willow (which 
> > apparently resets itself after a period of time). He turned it 
off 
> so 
> > Harry and Hermione could follow after Ron, and he turned it off 
> again 
> > so they could emerge from the passage with the chained Pettigrew.
> > 
> > One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is at 
> > least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a 
Kneazle 
> > who is part normal cat):  his name.
> > 
> > A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> > 
> > Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!
> > 
> > Indigo
> > [a good hot bath and a good book do wonders for the mind!]
> 
> Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your citations 
> equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd 
> Animagus, though?
> 
> Haggridd

This too is possible, but it strikes me as less likely because 
Crookshanks was in the pet store for a long time, and the owner of the 
store had a hard time selling him until Hermione came along.

Pettigrew's motive to run around as a rat was driven by fear of 
getting busted for the rat-fink he really is.

What motive would yet another unregistered animagus have for hanging 
out for an extremely long time in a pet shop?  Perhaps he knew 
Pettigrew was Scabbers the whole time and had been only waiting for an 
opportunity to be brought to Hogwarts?

We know Ron fed Scabbers from his plate. Nobody thinks twice of a rat 
with human food tastes until you look back and discover he was a human 
in rat shape.

But Crookshanks ate a spider. Can anyone think of other occasions 
where we see Crookshanks' diet, or eating people food as opposed to 
cat food?  (To me this is important. I don't see Pettigrew sticking so 
close to his role as Scabbers that he'd eat rat pellets or whatever).

It's definitely not Mrs. Figg, unless animagi can change gender.

Once Sirius has been proven innocent in Harry and Dumbledore's eyes, 
what reason would Crookshanks have, if an animagi, for remaining in 
the form of a cat constantly? [Other than "not breaking Hermione's 
heart because Crookshanks would mysteriously disappear if the animagi 
became human again"]


Questions, questions, questions.

Indigo








From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Apr 13 20:26:22 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:26:22 -0000
Subject: Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F1016eZq0DAtTp0000582b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b7nde+t603@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote:
> > > Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see
> > > Snape do (as opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that he
> > > may have done), that puts him in a positive light?
> (Excellent exchange about the Duelling Club and Snape showing off 
the Dark Mark to Fudge snipped)

There's also his saying counter-curses and refereeing the match in 
PS/SS.  I'm not sure that this is a case of want-to or have-to on 
dear Sev's part, though.  But it *does* put him in a good light as 
far as I'm concerned. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker


> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Apr 13 20:28:44 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:28:44 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7m9a+sijm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7nhs+4oev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16650

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
>
> > > A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> > > 
> > > Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!
> > > 
> > > Indigo
> > > [a good hot bath and a good book do wonders for the mind!]
>> 
> 
> I had always thought that Crookshanks was his name because he 
> had "bandy legs"
> 
> crook=crooked
> shanks=legsn (shank bone)
> 
> 
> I looked into this and yes ,its an old Engish term for crooked legs
> 
> claire :)

I would not be surprised if Ms. Rowling took BOTH definitions of the 
name into consideration.

Both are, after all, equally true and applicable to Crookshanks.

Indigo




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 20:43:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:43:34 -0500
Subject: Susan's dental work (was Ron's Phobias)
References: <9b60u7+q4gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD764F6.F30503BC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16651

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> I found out that dentists when I was a child did dental work without
> novacaine. If the patient screamed, they gave them novacaine (but
> physiologically that felt like more pain).
>
> So for years I pretended that I was the Amazon Queen when I went to
> the dentist, and just went.

[with apologies to Dickens]

Are there no breweries? The distilleries, are they still in operation?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Apr 13 20:48:19 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:48:19 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur
In-Reply-To: <0b5001c0c434$31249b40$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
References: <9b77ub+q4le@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010413133853.00bcf820@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16652

At 12:10 PM 4/13/01 -0400, Denise R wrote:
>Perhaps Ms. Fleur could become a "secretary" or an "assistant" to a
>professor?

I don't know how it is in Britain, but in the US there are definitely
"teacher's aides" who help with the teaching, grading, tutoring of students,
etc.  There are even some University "aides" who do *all* the teaching
while the Professor is out researching, writing, spying on Evil Overlords, &c.

Wouldn't be funny if suddenly Harry and Ron got top marks in Potions,
because assistant Potions mistress Fleur Delacour was actually grading
them fairly!



                                                 -- Dave




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 20:51:39 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:51:39 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
Message-ID: <9b7osr+mk3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16653

What do you all think that the Hogwarts house elves do in the summer 
holidays? A HUGE clean up of the castle? 6 weeks is a long time...

claire ?:)




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 21:05:09 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:05:09 -0000
Subject: Quotes
Message-ID: <9b7pm5+4n1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16654

Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?

I'll get us started with a few of my favourites..

"Ah, when two Neptunes appear in the sky a midget in glasses is being 
born."-Ron 

"Twitchy little ferret, aren't you Malfoy?" - Hermione

"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you 
ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on 
the train, the first day at Hogwarts? i told you not to hang around 
with rifraff like this! Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first to 
go, now the dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well-
 second- Diggory was the f-" - Draco Malfoy

"Only, well- I know I've been a bit of an idiot."- Ludo Bagman

Time for my personal favorite.....*drumroll please*...TADA!

"Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him 
wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley 





From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:14:39 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:14:39 -0000
Subject: Harry's wealth
Message-ID: <9b7q7v+ine7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16655

Further to the other comments on this
subject, I saw in an on-line
interview with JKR (can't remeber
whic one - it was linked to the
Lexicon) some interesting comments
and hints about further plot.
She stated (in response to a question
about what James did for a living,)
that he had inherited a lot of money
and implied that he did not have to
work for a living.  This suggests to
me that perhaps James and Lily's
work against Voldemort was not
necessarily MoM 'official' work -
this would tie in with the 'old
crowd' mentioned at the end of
GoF(although if Mundungus Fletcher
is so poor that he has to sleep under
a coat at the World Cup then maybe
he's
not so rich!)
By the way I am very new to the
internet (I have been dying to get
onto the HP websites for YEARS!) and
therefore do not know quite a lot of
basic stuff - what is LOL for
instance?
Please be patient with me...




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:18:35 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7n89+jbdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010413211835.90379.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16656

> This too is possible, but it strikes me as less likely because 
> Crookshanks was in the pet store for a long time, and the owner of
> the store had a hard time selling him until Hermione came along.

Well, if Crookshanks was waiting for the "right" owner to come along,
he would be difficult so that others would not buy him.

> It's definitely not Mrs. Figg, unless animagi can change gender.
>

And how do we know that Mrs. Figg isn't a Mr. Figg in really good
disguise?



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:32:30 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:32:30 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <20010413211835.90379.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b7r9e+n9el@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16657

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > This too is possible, but it strikes me as less likely because 
> > Crookshanks was in the pet store for a long time, and the owner of
> > the store had a hard time selling him until Hermione came along.
> 
> Well, if Crookshanks was waiting for the "right" owner to come 
along,
> he would be difficult so that others would not buy him.
> 
> > It's definitely not Mrs. Figg, unless animagi can change gender.
> >
> 
> And how do we know that Mrs. Figg isn't a Mr. Figg in really good
> disguise?
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 

Maybe it's Mr. Figg, out with the boys. :-)

Haggridd
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:36:03 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:36:03 -0000
Subject: Fleur
In-Reply-To: <9b7gsb+v4gd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7rg3+322j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16658

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> >> Why must she become a bar-keep or other such job?  She wouldn't 
> have gotten into the tournie if she wasn't one of the best students 
> at her school....<<
> 
> I've always seen her coming back as a 'student teacher' of sorts, or 
> possible as a substitute teacher, in the event that one of the 
> regular Hogwarts staff is indisposed for a while. :)
> 
> Lyda

Maybe she'll become a fund-raiser for Hogwarts.  I bet she could charm 
a galleon or two out of the alumni-- though not, perhaps, the alumnae.

Haggridd




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 21:45:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:45:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
References: <9b7l54+ssat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD77376.61FD4776@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16659

Haggridd wrote:

> Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your citations
> equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd
> Animagus, though?

Well, if he is, he's been one a damn long time---I'm not sure I could
eat a spider for any reason, even in cat form.

I just think that Animagi, like the polyjuice potion, is a plot device
that has been done unto death. Every smart animal in these books is not
an animagus. From the point of view of an author, especially one fond of
unexpected twists, I'd be stupid to use the same mechanism more than
twice before I gave it a nice, long rest.

I also think that JKR is indeed adhering to her own view and plan for
the books, and not bending to any commentary or criticism--but I think
she took the charity schoolbooks as a God-given opportunity to answer
some of the commentary without impinging on the narrative itself
(witness the number of witches in the history of Quidditch, a possible
nod to those wanting more female prominence). I think she also used the
schoolbooks to give us some hints. They read, to me, like enormous
in-jokes, and I can't believe she didn't put any "inside" information
that we'll need in future for them.

Aside from the lion-tail, the description of kneazles reads pretty much
like a description of Crookshanks, so I think the supposition that
Crookshanks is part-kneazle is more likely than the animagus
possibility. I'm tired of finding that all the cool animals are really
just people. I want cool animals. Just like I don't want to know that
the cool stuff about Harry (and it's been postulated, Ginny) is a
transplanted Voldemort talent; I want them to have their OWN cool
talents.

--Amanda, who really *must* go kill that black widow in the mailbox
before Jan gets home and checks the mail....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Fri Apr 13 21:49:14 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:49:14 -0000
Subject: Harry's wealth
In-Reply-To: <9b7q7v+ine7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7s8q+tsm8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16660

booleanfox at y... wrote:
 Further to the other comments on this
 subject, I saw in an on-line
 interview with JKR (can't remeber
 whic one - it was linked to the
 Lexicon) some interesting comments
 and hints about further plot.
 She stated (in response to a question
 about what James did for a living,)
 that he had inherited a lot of money
 and implied that he did not have to
 work for a living.  This suggests to
 me that perhaps James and Lily's
 work against Voldemort was not
 necessarily MoM 'official' work -
 his would tie in with the 'old
 crowd' mentioned at the end of
 GoF(although if Mundungus Fletcher
 is so poor that he has to sleep under
 a coat at the World Cup then maybe
 he's not so rich!)
 By the way I am very new to the 
 internet (I have been dying to get
 onto the HP websites for YEARS!) and
 therefore do not know quite a lot of
 basic stuff - what is LOL for
 instance?
 Please be patient with me...


Don't worry about it! Read the internet abbreviations section in the 
FAQs, LOL means laugh out loud.


claire :) (also a new girl!)




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:55:50 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:55:50 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <3AD77376.61FD4776@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b7sl6+m162@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16661

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your 
citations
> > equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd
> > Animagus, though?
> 
> Well, if he is, he's been one a damn long time---I'm not sure I 
could
> eat a spider for any reason, even in cat form.
> 
> I just think that Animagi, like the polyjuice potion, is a plot 
device
> that has been done unto death. Every smart animal in these books is 
not
> an animagus. From the point of view of an author, especially one 
fond of
> unexpected twists, I'd be stupid to use the same mechanism more than
> twice before I gave it a nice, long rest.
> 
> I also think that JKR is indeed adhering to her own view and plan 
for
> the books, and not bending to any commentary or criticism--but I 
think
> she took the charity schoolbooks as a God-given opportunity to 
answer
> some of the commentary without impinging on the narrative itself
> (witness the number of witches in the history of Quidditch, a 
possible
> nod to those wanting more female prominence). I think she also used 
the
> schoolbooks to give us some hints. They read, to me, like enormous
> in-jokes, and I can't believe she didn't put any "inside" 
information
> that we'll need in future for them.
> 
> Aside from the lion-tail, the description of kneazles reads pretty 
much
> like a description of Crookshanks, so I think the supposition that
> Crookshanks is part-kneazle is more likely than the animagus
> possibility. I'm tired of finding that all the cool animals are 
really
> just people. I want cool animals. Just like I don't want to know 
that
> the cool stuff about Harry (and it's been postulated, Ginny) is a
> transplanted Voldemort talent; I want them to have their OWN cool
> talents.
> 
> --Amanda, who really *must* go kill that black widow in the mailbox
> before Jan gets home and checks the mail....
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I respect your argument, especially the part condemning the overuse
of what had been nice and original plot devices.  The point about 
using the charity books as an opportunity to "spin" the commentary is 
most insightful. I can't wait to see what the real answer about
Crookshanks will be!

Haggridd




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Thu Apr 12 15:13:03 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:13:03 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
Message-ID: <F115tRDLaRIoNU1pTxk00004c0c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16662

>For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular little
>group.
>It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members who
>do post
>are rarely acknowledged.

I was surprised to hear you say this, because in *my* experience, this
is one of the *least* cliquish and insular lists I've ever been on. [And
I've been on a lot of lists, for a lot of subjects.] I* certainly never
felt inadequate or riduculed because of my short history on the list /
in the fandom. My very first post contained a bit of musing on the
similarities Percy and Snape and sparked what I thought was a very
interesting discussion about Percy. [Looking back, I slap myself for not
checking the archives first. D'oh! Lucky for me it seemed to be a 'new'
topic.]

I don't mind if nobody answers to something I say. I like it when they
do, but it doesn't really bother me when they don't.

If I violate any list rule, or somesuch, I don't mind being told. That
goes for grammar and spelling mistakes, as well -- even doubly so! No,
there is no need to be rude about those things, but to be honest, I'd
rather be on a list where the moderators were a bit 'lax' about that
sort of thing than have too 'strict' moderators.

Again, this is one of the best lists I've ever been on. It's neither
bitchy nor overly 'friendly', and I like it a lot.

A newbie's 2 cents.

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 13 21:58:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:58:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
References: <9b7ieb+msc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD77671.EECB3C70@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16663

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> > Percy is just a kid growing up who's not as adult as he thinks he
> is.

Interesting thought just occurred to me (profusest of apologies if this
has been discussed already, I got kind of lost in the volume of Percy
stuff that's been going by and I might have missed it)--I see some
parallels between Percy and Draco. Both seem to have taken the "party
line" they've been given and run with it. Draco certainly talks the talk
for his dad's viewpoint, and Percy is the poster child for the MoM. But
neither have "seen action."

I wonder how they will react, when Draco sees the dark side in action
(the "wet work" referred to by Jim, I think), and when Percy sees how
ineffective his beloved bureaucracy can be in the fight against the
dark. How will their respective baptisms of fire affect them?

Does anyone else see this parallel, or do I really, really need to take
a break and get a Dr. Pepper now?

--Amanda, really getting up to go kill the spider now


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Apr 13 22:26:52 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:26:52 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7n89+jbdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b7ufc+flhp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16664

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:

> We know Ron fed Scabbers from his plate. Nobody thinks twice of a rat 
> with human food tastes until you look back and discover he was a human 
> in rat shape.
snip about Crookie's diet
  (To me this is important. I don't see Pettigrew sticking so 
> close to his role as Scabbers that he'd eat rat pellets or whatever).


	I'm afraid this isn't such a great clue...rats hang around people 
because they eat what people eat. And when scientists want to know if 
something is safe for human consumption they feed it to (drumroll here) 
rats. I haven't made a trial of this <g>, but I imagine a human could 
survive on rat pellets for a good long while. Pet food makers also tend 
to make their products tasty to humans, since humans obsessed with 
their pets like to sample the stuff.

Pippin





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 22:33:47 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:33:47 -0000
Subject: ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
In-Reply-To: <F115tRDLaRIoNU1pTxk00004c0c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b7usb+s2r9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16665

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie 'Melle' Werkers" <minerva at f...> 
wrote:
> >For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular little
> >group.
> >It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members who
> >do post
> >are rarely acknowledged.
> 
> I was surprised to hear you say this, because in *my* experience, 
this
> is one of the *least* cliquish and insular lists I've ever been on. 
[And
> I've been on a lot of lists, for a lot of subjects.] I* certainly 
never
> felt inadequate or riduculed because of my short history on the list 
/
> in the fandom. My very first post contained a bit of musing on the
> similarities Percy and Snape and sparked what I thought was a very
> interesting discussion about Percy. [Looking back, I slap myself for 
not
> checking the archives first. D'oh! Lucky for me it seemed to be a 
'new'
> topic.]
> 
> I don't mind if nobody answers to something I say. I like it when 
they
> do, but it doesn't really bother me when they don't.
> 
> If I violate any list rule, or somesuch, I don't mind being told. 
That
> goes for grammar and spelling mistakes, as well -- even doubly so! 
No,
> there is no need to be rude about those things, but to be honest, 
I'd
> rather be on a list where the moderators were a bit 'lax' about that
> sort of thing than have too 'strict' moderators.
> 
> Again, this is one of the best lists I've ever been on. It's neither
> bitchy nor overly 'friendly', and I like it a lot.
> 
> A newbie's 2 cents.
> 
> Sofie
> 
> 
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
> - I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
> - I don't want that kind of power.
> - You're just afraid of it.
> (Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
> 
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
> site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: 
minerva[at]femgeeks.net
> IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at h... |  AIM: badevilgrrl
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.


I am quite new, and I have not noticed any degree of cliquishness.

Haggridd




From birdy739 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 22:34:52 2001
From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:34:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's wealth
Message-ID: <F129HaKtKufVma0osA90000654c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16666

Hi!
LOL = Laugh Out Loud
<g> = grin
<bg> = big grin
<vbg> = very big grin
You get the picture, right? <g>
This list gives you an abbreviation page so that
you know all the abbreviated phrases they use. Maybe,
you could go exploring and try to find it. ^.~ (well,...
thats supposed to be a winking face)

Kelly
>From: booleanfox at yahoo.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's wealth
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:14:39 -0000
>
>Further to the other comments on this
>subject, I saw in an on-line
>interview with JKR (can't remeber
>whic one - it was linked to the
>Lexicon) some interesting comments
>and hints about further plot.
>She stated (in response to a question
>about what James did for a living,)
>that he had inherited a lot of money
>and implied that he did not have to
>work for a living.  This suggests to
>me that perhaps James and Lily's
>work against Voldemort was not
>necessarily MoM 'official' work -
>this would tie in with the 'old
>crowd' mentioned at the end of
>GoF(although if Mundungus Fletcher
>is so poor that he has to sleep under
>a coat at the World Cup then maybe
>he's
>not so rich!)
>By the way I am very new to the
>internet (I have been dying to get
>onto the HP websites for YEARS!) and
>therefore do not know quite a lot of
>basic stuff - what is LOL for
>instance?
>Please be patient with me...
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 13 22:50:49 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:50:49 -0000
Subject: Moderators: When are we slated to discuss....
Message-ID: <9b7vs9+30nc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16667


The man so many of us lust for, Sirius Black? 

*wriggling in my seat and sighing audibly*

Seriously, *groan* I ask in the interests of order-- I think slotting 
certain weeks to talk about one character or another in depth is a 
system that is working very well!

--Suzanne




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 23:20:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:20:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F144aZbLAX3cf30000603c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16668




> > I wrote:
> > > > Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see
> > > > Snape do (as opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that he
> > > > may have done), that puts him in a positive light?
> > (Excellent exchange about the Duelling Club and Snape showing off
>the Dark Mark to Fudge snipped)

Parker wrote:

>There's also his saying counter-curses and refereeing the match in
>PS/SS.  I'm not sure that this is a case of want-to or have-to on
>dear Sev's part, though.  But it *does* put him in a good light as
>far as I'm concerned.

I'm afraid I don't count this - it shows Snape is not evil, granted, but it 
is simply his duty to prevent Harry's death, if he can.  I suppose I could 
give him a few brownie points for the refereeing, if I must *g*

BTW, some of my postings are getting delayed, so it may look as if I haven't 
taken account of what people have said.  I do value every point of view.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 13 23:48:33 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:48:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moderators: When are we slated to discuss....
References: <9b7vs9+30nc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0c474$411f61c0$6749d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16669


----- Original Message -----
From: <rainy_lilac at yahoo.com>

>
> The man so many of us lust for, Sirius Black?
>
> *wriggling in my seat and sighing audibly*
>
> Seriously, *groan* I ask in the interests of order-- I think slotting
> certain weeks to talk about one character or another in depth is a
> system that is working very well!

Count on me to answer this question...We had a week of Sirius discussion on
Sirius in March.  I did a summary (message#13471) and Randy also did a
parody character summary (message#13204).  I think you were MIA during that
time.  Feel free to read the summary and post any discussion comments you
might have and I know at least 3-4 people who would love to join in...right
Monika?

And how is that mermaid fic coming anyway?  (grin)

carole





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 00:10:19 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:10:19 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <3AD77376.61FD4776@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9b84hb+qn98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16670

 I'm tired of finding that all the cool animals are really
> just people. I want cool animals. 

Well said, Amanda!  I agree with you about the overdone animagi thing.  
I can't imagine that JKR would have Crookshanks also be an animagus 
along with Scabbbers being one.

What I really think about animals in the magical world is that they 
are magical the way the wizards and witches are.  Remember that Hedwig 
can understand everything Harry says to her and can find anyone, 
anywhere and at any time.  There were also rats playing a skipping 
game with their tales in a pet shop in PoA.  I'd be pretty damned 
shocked to see sewer rats in the subways here in NYC playing games 
with their tales!

I love the idea of Crookshanks being part kneazle, but mostly I just 
think he fits neatly and nicely into the wizard world.  I wish my cat 
was as smart and understanding as Crookshanks :-).

--jenny from




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 00:17:58 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:17:58 -0000
Subject: ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
In-Reply-To: <9b7usb+s2r9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b84vm+kq6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16671

> > >For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular 
little
> > >group.
> > >It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members 
who
> > >do post
> > >are rarely acknowledged.

I might have disagreed with you, earlier on... but... *shrug*

It was merely that after I brought up a certain subject, I got no 
responses that could I find. After reposting it, another person then, 
who seemed to be an older member of this list went back into the 
books, read up, and ventured her own reasons on why she thought it 
likely that my opinion might be true. She seemed to get a lot more 
responses than I did. Not a big deal.

But I wouldn't call this group insular or cliquish. Just a little 
overwhelmed by the number of posts and posters. I have a feeling that 
people tend to form a certain respect for the opinions of some older 
members(I mean older as in 'having been on this list longer), and that 
to a certain degree, if the name is commonly seen and the person has 
well-supported theories, that person is more likely to have their 
posts looked at. After all, with so many posts, most members have to 
sift and filter through posts. But the longer someone has been on the 
list, the more time they have to gain the respect and attention of 
others. A new person may start out with a very insightful first post, 
and, thereafter be put on a reader's mental list of 'people worth 
reading', so to speak. But I feel this happens more commonly with the 
people who have been here longer, who have offered more opinions, and 
who most people are most familiar with.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. *mutters* I'll probably regret this 
outburst later. Heaven hath no fury like the hormones of an 
fifteen-year old.

- Celeste




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 00:21:18 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:21:18 -0000
Subject: An Unexpected DADA
Message-ID: <9b855u+vfn0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16672

I just had a thought...  Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give Snape 
the job of professor of DADA.  Maybe the rumors of Snape wanting the 
position are true after all.  Besides, I'm willing to bet a few 
galleons that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than most adults 
do.  I'd put his knowledge up there with Moody.  Who better to teach 
than someone who really practiced the Dark Arts?  It may not happen in 
OoP, but perhaps in book 6 or 7...

Any thoughts?

--jenny from rav




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr 14 00:34:09 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:34:09 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <20010413211835.90379.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b85u1+mi6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > This too is possible, but it strikes me as less likely because 
> > Crookshanks was in the pet store for a long time, and the owner 
of
> > the store had a hard time selling him until Hermione came along.
> 
> Well, if Crookshanks was waiting for the "right" owner to come 
along,
> he would be difficult so that others would not buy him.

If all he wanted was to get into Hogwarts, there are a gazillion kids 
coming through every August. 

> 
> > It's definitely not Mrs. Figg, unless animagi can change gender.
> >
> 
> And how do we know that Mrs. Figg isn't a Mr. Figg in really good
> disguise?
> 
Because Dumbledore says her name is Arabella, and I get the impression 
you can't put much past Albus Dumbledore (even though the faux-Moody 
did)? 





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 14 00:38:43 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:38:43 -0000
Subject: An Unexpected DADA
In-Reply-To: <9b855u+vfn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b866j+6ep9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16674

Hello!!!!


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I just had a thought...  Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give Snape 
> the job of professor of DADA.  Maybe the rumors of Snape wanting the 
> position are true after all.  Besides, I'm willing to bet a few 
> galleons that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than most adults 
> do.  I'd put his knowledge up there with Moody.  Who better to teach 
> than someone who really practiced the Dark Arts?  It may not happen 
in 
> OoP, but perhaps in book 6 or 7...
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> --jenny from rav

Okay, on that note...who would take over potions? I personally think 
that by having the position of DADA Prof opening up at the end of 
every year is a neat way to introduce more people in to the universe 
of HP. Just MHO...

Jamieson




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr 14 00:43:09 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:43:09 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <9b7ufc+flhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b86et+oi0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16675

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> 
> > We know Ron fed Scabbers from his plate. Nobody thinks twice of a 
rat 
> > with human food tastes until you look back and discover he was a 
human 
> > in rat shape.
> snip about Crookie's diet
>   (To me this is important. I don't see Pettigrew sticking so 
> > close to his role as Scabbers that he'd eat rat pellets or 
whatever).
> 
> 
> 	I'm afraid this isn't such a great clue...rats hang around 
people 
> because they eat what people eat.

Except Scabbers nee Pettigrew got himself into the Weasley family 
because he wanted a wizarding family.

 And when scientists want to know 
if 
> something is safe for human consumption they feed it to (drumroll 
here) 
> rats. 

And scientists are Muggles,  which makes this particular observation 
unfit with regard to Scabbers.

I haven't made a trial of this <g>, but I imagine a human 
could 
> survive on rat pellets for a good long while. Pet food makers also 
tend 
> to make their products tasty to humans, since humans obsessed with 
> their pets like to sample the stuff.

I concede this is possible, dear Pippin -- but we must remember the 
Weasleys are very close to destitute.  Witness Ron's robes, and 
the fact that Scabbers himself is a hand-me-down.  

The Weasleys probably fed him from their own plates rather than 
getting expensive rat food from a muggle pet store or even expensive 
rat food from a wizarding pet store.



Indigo





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 14 00:44:39 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:44:39 -0000
Subject: Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <9b7nde+t603@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b86hn+uu8b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16676

Hello All!

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I wrote:
> > > > Is it just me?  Can anyone point to *anything* we actually see
> > > > Snape do (as opposed to conjecture, albeit quite fairly, that 
he
> > > > may have done), that puts him in a positive light?
> >

I don't know...I don't think I can view Snape in a positive light. 
Just because of who he is. I just finished reading PoA, and the scene 
at the end of the book where Harry and Hermione are in the hospital 
wing, the stuff he says! I kind of took pity on him when the grudge 
was explained, thinking, Oh, this guy has a heart somewhat. But then, 
after his shocking display of lieing, (sp?) was so disgusting!

But that's the whole point. Your not supposed to like Snape, and this 
might be shaping him up for books to come. To date, the only thing I 
can think of that was good was saving harry in PS. 

Jamieson 




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 14 00:46:58 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:46:58 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9b7osr+mk3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b86m2+j6ml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16677

Hello Everyone!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> What do you all think that the Hogwarts house elves do in the summer 
> holidays? A HUGE clean up of the castle? 6 weeks is a long time...
> 
> claire ?:)

Good question. I like to thik that they have their own lives/families 
that they visit. Dumbledore treats them really well, so I could see 
that happening. 

Or perhaps they take classes too, to further their own special brand 
of magic.

Or perhaps all the house elves there are one big family....hmmm...food 
for thought, anyway.

Jamieson




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 00:50:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] An Unexpected DADA
In-Reply-To: <9b855u+vfn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010414005054.4691.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16678

> Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give Snape 
> the job of professor of DADA.  Maybe the rumors of Snape wanting
> the position are true after all.  Besides, I'm willing to bet a few

> galleons that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than most adults
> do.  I'd put his knowledge up there with Moody.  Who better to
> teach than someone who really practiced the Dark Arts?  

Might be a good idea since the subject is about to become more than
just academic.


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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 00:52:09 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:52:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks  as  Animagus
In-Reply-To: <9b7n89+jbdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010414005209.1569.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16679

Also if Crookshanks were an animagus, he would have
shown up on the Marauder's Map under his real name.
Lupin would have seen this, as he was looking at the
map and saw Pettigrew on it. Crookshanks was in this
scene at around the same time, so Lupin would have
seen another name show up.

Anne
--- Indigo <indigo at indigosky.net> wrote:
> > Haggridd
> 
> This too is possible, but it strikes me as less
> likely because 
> Crookshanks was in the pet store for a long time,
> and the owner of the 
> store had a hard time selling him until Hermione
> came along.
> 
> Pettigrew's motive to run around as a rat was driven
> by fear of 
> getting busted for the rat-fink he really is.
> 
> What motive would yet another unregistered animagus
> have for hanging 
> out for an extremely long time in a pet shop? 
> Perhaps he knew 
> Pettigrew was Scabbers the whole time and had been
> only waiting for an 
> opportunity to be brought to Hogwarts?
> 
> We know Ron fed Scabbers from his plate. Nobody
> thinks twice of a rat 
> with human food tastes until you look back and
> discover he was a human 
> in rat shape.
> 
> But Crookshanks ate a spider. Can anyone think of
> other occasions 
> where we see Crookshanks' diet, or eating people
> food as opposed to 
> cat food?  (To me this is important. I don't see
> Pettigrew sticking so 
> close to his role as Scabbers that he'd eat rat
> pellets or whatever).
> 
> It's definitely not Mrs. Figg, unless animagi can
> change gender.
> 
> Once Sirius has been proven innocent in Harry and
> Dumbledore's eyes, 
> what reason would Crookshanks have, if an animagi,
> for remaining in 
> the form of a cat constantly? [Other than "not
> breaking Hermione's 
> heart because Crookshanks would mysteriously
> disappear if the animagi 
> became human again"]
> 
> 
> Questions, questions, questions.
> 
> Indigo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 14 00:54:01 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:54:01 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b7pm5+4n1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b8739+alo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16680


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?
> 
> I'll get us started with a few of my favourites..
> 
> "Ah, when two Neptunes appear in the sky a midget in glasses is 
being 
> born."-Ron 
> 
> "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you Malfoy?" - Hermione
> 
> "You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you 
> ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met 
on 
> the train, the first day at Hogwarts? i told you not to hang around 
> with rifraff like this! Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first 
to 
> go, now the dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! 
Well-
>  second- Diggory was the f-" - Draco Malfoy
> 
> "Only, well- I know I've been a bit of an idiot."- Ludo Bagman
> 
> Time for my personal favorite.....*drumroll please*...TADA!
> 
> "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him 
> wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley

I've just started re-reading it for the fifth time, so I'm only at the 
beginning, but here's one of my faves:

rons voice now joined the others'.
'What are we doing here? Has something gone wrong?'
'Oh, no, Ron' came Freds voice very sarcastically. 'No, this is 
exactly where we wanted to end up.'

and my absolute fave

'Just put them on, Archie, there's a good chap, you can't walk around 
like that, th eMuggle on the gate's already getting suspicious-'

'I bought this in a Muggle shop', said the old wizard stubbornly. 
'Muggles wear them.'

'Muggle WOMEN wear them, Archie, not the men, they wear THESE,' said 
the Ministry wizard, and he brandished the pinstriped trousers.

'I'm not putting them on,' said old Archie in indignation. 'I like a 
healthy breeze round my privates, thanks.'

---
I laugh so hard every time I read that one. Ah, thank you JKR!

Hugs
Jamieson




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 00:12:21 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:12:21 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
Message-ID: <LAW2-F15SoRKbpG1Kia00007094@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16681

Indigo wrote:

> > One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is at
> > least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a Kneazle
> > who is part normal cat):  his name.
> >
> > A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> >
> > Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!

I *think* Crookshanks is an old English nickname meaning someone with 
crooked legs.  Can anyone confirm?  Though I like "Nail the crooks"!:)

Haggridd wrote:

>Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your citations
>equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd
>Animagus, though?

I don't think he can be, because Sirius Black says of him "He's the most 
intelligent of his kind I ever met" - given that Sirius *is* an unregistered 
animagus, would he say "his kind" of another one?  And since in that scene 
in the Shrieking Shack, unregistered animagi are not exactly thin on the 
ground, it might have been a good time for Crookie to reveal himself, but he 
doesn't. (OK, OK, there may be reasons as yet unknown...)



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From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 01:59:08 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:59:08 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b7pm5+4n1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b8atc+u4v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16682


> 
> "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him 
> wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley

yep - that'd be the one for me, too.  

A close second:  "Oh shut up, Weatherby," said Fred.

There are many others, but it isn't just the quotes I love; it is the 
way JKR describes things and the way she writes dialogue to make one 
actually hear it... know what I mean?

Okay, one more for the road:  '"Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid he 
was," Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each othe




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 02:00:45 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:00:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin the Writer
Message-ID: <9b8b0d+hfn1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16683

(I asked this question once before, and only got one response, 
probably b/c my subject line wasn't really indicitive of the 
question, I'll ask again...)

Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout, 
Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The 
publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than I 
thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the 
Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79).  Unless he wrote it AT 
Hogwarts, he's pretty smart -- maybe after the Snape Prank incident 
he was inspired.  I would really like to think he wrote it, that way, 
I could imagine that he got a few royalities off the book, I wouldn't 
have to worry about him so much, financially and all. 

Stephanie 





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr 14 02:04:47 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:04:47 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F15SoRKbpG1Kia00007094@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b8b7v+bqdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16684

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote that I, 
 Indigo wrote:
> 
> > > One more observation that puts me firmly in the Crookshanks is 
at
> > > least part Kneazle (or, I'm beginning to think more likely a 
Kneazle
> > > who is part normal cat):  his name.
> > >
> > > A shank is a straight and narrow nail. [Merriam-Webster]
> > >
> > > Crook - Shanks = Nail the crooks!
> 
> I *think* Crookshanks is an old English nickname meaning someone 
with 
> crooked legs.  Can anyone confirm?  Though I like "Nail the 
crooks"!:)

Clairey confirmed this very thing earlier.  I said then I wouldn't be 
surprised if JKR was aware of both meanings that could be ascribed to 
the name.

Cornelius Fudge is another name that could have more than one meaning. 

Fudge: is a type of candy, but it also means falsify,and it further 
also means: muddle through not exactly knowing the truth.  

> 
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> >Wonderful textual investigation, thank you!  Wouldn't your 
citations
> >equally support the possibility that Crookshanks is an unregisterd
> >Animagus, though?

Morag wrote:
> 
> I don't think he can be, because Sirius Black says of him "He's the 
most 
> intelligent of his kind I ever met" - given that Sirius *is* an 
unregistered 
> animagus, would he say "his kind" of another one?  And since in that 
scene 
> in the Shrieking Shack, unregistered animagi are not exactly thin on 
the 
> ground, it might have been a good time for Crookie to reveal 
himself, but he 
> doesn't. (OK, OK, there may be reasons as yet unknown...)
> 
> 
I'm inclined to agree here.

Crookshanks would've been far better able to defend Sirius if he was 
in human form than curling up on his chest in cat form. 

And for that matter, if Crookshanks could take human form, it would be 
very easy to get hold of Scabbers, with some fabricated story about  
taking him to a magic vet in Hogsmeade or something.  This 
unfortunately has the flaw of giving away who Crookshanks is, because 
animagi always bear some indication of their "totem" animal (?) in 
human form, and vice-versa. 

Here's a thought.

Crouch-as-Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret.

Maybe Crookshanks is some wizard who got turned into a cat and is 
unable to change himself back to his rightful form?

That's an angle I'm not sure I've seen bounced about.

Thoughts?

Meow.

Indigo





From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 14 02:11:45 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:11:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and  rule-breaking
References: <9b86hn+uu8b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD7B1E1.826A7557@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16685

Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote:

> I don't know...I don't think I can view Snape in a positive light.
> Just because of who he is. I just finished reading PoA, and the scene
> at the end of the book where Harry and Hermione are in the hospital
> wing, the stuff he says! I kind of took pity on him when the grudge
> was explained, thinking, Oh, this guy has a heart somewhat. But then,
> after his shocking display of lieing, (sp?) was so disgusting!

When did he lie? I've combed that whole sequence in detail, and Snape is
operating on the truth as he knows it.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 02:14:45 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:14:45 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b7pm5+4n1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b8bql+epv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16686

"They run off eckelticity do they," he said knowledgeably.  "Ah yes, 
I can see the plugs.  I collect plugs," he added to Unlce 
Vernon.  "And batteries.  Got a whole collection of batteries.  My 
wife thinks I'm mad, but there you are."  -- Arthur Weasley

Stephanie




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?
> 
> I'll get us started with a few of my favourites..
> 
> "Ah, when two Neptunes appear in the sky a midget in glasses is 
being 
> born."-Ron 
> 
> "Twitchy little ferret, aren't you Malfoy?" - Hermione
> 
> "You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you 
you 
> ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met 
on 
> the train, the first day at Hogwarts? i told you not to hang around 
> with rifraff like this! Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first 
to 
> go, now the dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! 
Well-
>  second- Diggory was the f-" - Draco Malfoy
> 
> "Only, well- I know I've been a bit of an idiot."- Ludo Bagman
> 
> Time for my personal favorite.....*drumroll please*...TADA!
> 
> "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him 
> wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley




From bohners at pobox.com  Sat Apr 14 02:38:51 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:38:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: was Neville: was re: Authority and  rule-breaking
References: <9b86hn+uu8b@eGroups.com> <3AD7B1E1.826A7557@texas.net>
Message-ID: <011a01c0c48c$0d1ace60$023cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 16687

> > I don't know...I don't think I can view Snape in a positive light.
[snip]
> > after his shocking display of lieing, (sp?) was so disgusting!

> When did he lie? I've combed that whole sequence in detail, and Snape is
> operating on the truth as he knows it.

Good point.  And when it comes to evaluating Snape I think we have to
remember, or at least try to remember, that Snape is simply not privy to a
lot of information that we, the readers, know about thanks to sharing
Harry's POV.  And that includes Harry's innocence (or at least innocent
motives) in a lot of cases where he gets nailed by Snape, or threatened by
Snape, for breaking Hogwarts rules.  How can Snape know anything about Harry
except what he sees with his own eyes -- much of which involves
disobedience, insubordination, etc. and is thus pretty damning?

Agreed that Snape is a lot nastier than he has to be, and it isn't pretty
(that cold "I see no difference" to Hermione makes me cringe just as much as
the next person, believe me).  But I really do think that there is going to
be some sort of devastating revelation about Snape coming down the pipe,
perhaps as early as the next book, that forces the reader to re-evaluate
even his harshest actions.  And I suspect that when Harry finds out about
it, he's going to have to look at Snape in a new light.  As will we.

I'm not reading fanfic or wishful thinking back into this, either:  JKR has
been setting us up for the idea that Snape is not what he appears to be, and
that he is being greatly misjudged by Harry, right from the beginning.  See:
entire plot of SS/PS, the.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 02:34:03 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:34:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quotes
References: <9b8atc+u4v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003601c0c48b$5f4305a0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16688

"Bouncing Ferret..."

Says it all.

:)

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Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: <meboriqua at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:59 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quotes


>
> >
> > "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him
> > wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley
>
> yep - that'd be the one for me, too.
>
> A close second:  "Oh shut up, Weatherby," said Fred.
>
> There are many others, but it isn't just the quotes I love; it is the
> way JKR describes things and the way she writes dialogue to make one
> actually hear it... know what I mean?
>
> Okay, one more for the road:  '"Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid he
> was," Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each othe
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
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From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sat Apr 14 02:34:24 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:34:24 -0000
Subject: An Unexpected DADA
In-Reply-To: <9b855u+vfn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b8cvg+4l23@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16689

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
>> I just had a thought...  Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give 
Snape the job of professor of DADA.  Maybe the rumors of Snape 
wanting the position are true after all.  Besides, I'm willing to bet 
a few galleons that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than most 
adults do.  I'd put his knowledge up there with Moody.  Who better to 
teach than someone who really practiced the Dark Arts?  It may not 
happen in OoP, but perhaps in book 6 or 7...<< 

Ah, yes, we Snapefans seem to argue over this point quite a bit. 

First inclination is to assume that Dumbledore does not trust Snape 
enough to let him be the DADA teacher. That Snape has this obsession 
with DA, but Dumbledore is afraid to let him take the job because he 
fears that Snape might be very tempted to return to practicing Dark 
Magic. However, as Sirius mentions to Harry, it doesn't seem that 
Dumbledore would let an ex-DE into the school as a teacher. Unless he 
completely trusted him, as he does Snape. So, if he has complete 
faith in Snape's ability and confidence in his choices, then 
Dumbledore would also be trusting enough to let him have the DADA job 
if he really wanted it. As Moody said, Dumbledore's a trusting man.

Second thought would be that Snape having the position would somehow 
jeopardize his life or his situation as a possible spy for later. 
I've never seen a big ol' dissertation on this theory, and it has a 
few holes, IMO, but it could be true. 

Third thought is that Snape doesn't trust himself enough to take the 
job. He could be worried that he would be tempted back to the Dark 
Side, and therefore refuses the job. I like it. I use this theory in 
fanfiction. I think Severus doesn't want to make any of the mistakes 
he once made as a DE, and although I think he definitely has the will 
power and the honor to resist temptation, I think he just wouldn't 
want to risk it, you know?

Fourth and final thought is that Snape never wanted the DADA job. He 
is a VERY talented Potions maker, and Dumbledore has been using his 
mastery of the art of Potions to attempt to create powerful draughts 
and solutons and such which may help in the battle against Voldemort. 
I lik this idea as well; I still think Snape went back to Voldemort 
spy, though, even if he is working on some brilliant concoctions.

Lyda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 02:35:37 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:35:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin the Writer
References: <9b8b0d+hfn1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c0c48b$97ef1420$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16690

He was the first person I thought of when I read that bit. :)

I'd like to think it was him, as well, trying to get the wizard world to
understand that he had a heart, and feelings, as a werewolf and not to
forget it.

**************************
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:00 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin the Writer


> (I asked this question once before, and only got one response,
> probably b/c my subject line wasn't really indicitive of the
> question, I'll ask again...)
>
> Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout,
> Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The
> publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than I
> thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the
> Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79).  Unless he wrote it AT
> Hogwarts, he's pretty smart -- maybe after the Snape Prank incident
> he was inspired.  I would really like to think he wrote it, that way,
> I could imagine that he got a few royalities off the book, I wouldn't
> have to worry about him so much, financially and all.
>
> Stephanie
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
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>
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hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


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From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 14 02:45:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:45:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN Re: Here's a very strange thought ...
References: <9b84vm+kq6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD7B9BD.866438F7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16691

Celeste Chang wrote:

> > > >For all your 1100 members, this is a very cliquish, insular
> little group.
> > > >It's difficult for a new member to get a toehold.  New members
> who do post are rarely acknowledged.
>
> I might have disagreed with you, earlier on... but... *shrug*
>
> It was merely that after I brought up a certain subject, I got no
> responses that could I find. After reposting it, another person then,
> who seemed to be an older member of this list went back into the
> books, read up, and ventured her own reasons on why she thought it
> likely that my opinion might be true. She seemed to get a lot more
> responses than I did. Not a big deal.
>
> But I wouldn't call this group insular or cliquish. Just a little
> overwhelmed by the number of posts and posters. I have a feeling that
> people tend to form a certain respect for the opinions of some older
> members(I mean older as in 'having been on this list longer), and that
> to a certain degree, if the name is commonly seen and the person has
> well-supported theories, that person is more likely to have their
> posts looked at. After all, with so many posts, most members have to
> sift and filter through posts. But the longer someone has been on the
> list, the more time they have to gain the respect and attention of
> others. A new person may start out with a very insightful first post,
> and, thereafter be put on a reader's mental list of 'people worth
> reading', so to speak. But I feel this happens more commonly with the
> people who have been here longer, who have offered more opinions, and
> who most people are most familiar with.

Actually, what I've observed happening is that often someone throws a
thought out there, and several replies hit the waves at the same time.
For some reason, it always seems like only one reply is seized upon as
the "forum" for that thread. I think it's the flocking instinct or
something, but I've seen it happen a lot. Sometimes the other replies
get "revisited" later when someone's cleaning out their email files.

I've actually had this happen a lot, replied to something, and seen a
similar post from somebody else, and then the "thread" grabbed the other
post and ran with it. [Admittedly, it could be because I can talk the
hind leg off a donkey, and people don't want to bother with my
Binnsishness.] So don't feel alone.

> Sorry if I've offended anyone. *mutters* I'll probably regret this
> outburst later. Heaven hath no fury like the hormones of an
> fifteen-year old.

Wait til pregnancy, my dear. You have no idea. And I must say, for all
you on the list of this age, I can't tell from the posts. I'm so amazed
at your writing and expressive ability, and maturity! At fifteen, I
*think* I could string four or five long sentences together....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 03:35:27 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:35:27 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <003601c0c48b$5f4305a0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9b8ghv+qs88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16692

Since it's Ron week here's a couple quotes I like. :)

"I'm never wearing them," Ron was saying stubbornly. "Never."

"Fine," snapped Mrs. Weasley. "Go naked. And, Harry, make sure you 
get a picture of him. Goodness knows I could do with a good laugh."




"Ah, think of the possibilities," said Ron dreamily. "It would've 
been so easy to push Malfoy off a glacier and make it look like an 
accident...Shame his mother likes him...."

Kristin




From mulligag at tznet.com  Sat Apr 14 05:02:55 2001
From: mulligag at tznet.com (mulligag at tznet.com)
Date: 13 Apr 2001 23:02:55 -0600
Subject: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
Message-ID: <200104140359.f3E3xYa23022@mail.tznet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16693

Well, after lurking for close to a month, I think I've absorbed enough of the list culture to 
jump into the fray.  *s*  So here I go.  (And I apologize for any future late replies... I'm on 
digest, and they can pile up.)

Just how aware is the Muggle government of the existence of the Wizarding Government?  In 
POA (US, p. 37-8) we get the following from the Daily Prophet:

--
Fudge has been criticized by come members of the International Federation of Warlocks for 
informing the Muggle Prime Minister of the crisis.

"Well, really, I had to, don't you know,' said an irritable Fudge.  'Black is mad.  He's a 
danger to anyone who crosses him, magic or Muggle.  I have the Prime Minister's assurance 
that he will not breathe a word of Black's true identity to anyone.  And let's face it - who'd 
believe him if he did?"
--

Granted, we do have reason to doubt that which the Daily Prophet reports.  However, I feel 
that the basic facts (the PM knowing) can be assumed to be true.

Now, since Fudge simply reported the incident directly to the PM, we must assume that the 
Muggle government is, if nothing else, aware of the existence of the wizarding world - 
otherwise the PM would have, most likely, thought Fudge to be an insane crackpot, if he'd 
even gotten into the PM in the first place.

We would, I suppose, have to then extrapolate that then most, if not all, of the important 
world governments and organizations would be aware of the wizarding world.

How then, do you suppose each countries respective Ministry keeps the gov'ts and 
organizations quiet?  It can't just be the leader of each country.  Past leaders, going back 
quite far, would have to have known.  As well as advisors, etc.  And these individuals would 
not have family in the Wizarding World, and so little incentive to keep them quiet.  wizards 
would have to be going around doing memory charms constantly, IMO.

Any ideas on how the relations would work?

Oh, and could someone point me to the posts where it was discussed why Sirius thought 
Remus was the spy?  I'd really like to see other people's ideas on that.  (Unless, of course, 
you'd allow me to bring up the subject again?  ^_^)

Love ya,
Cristin


"Anybody remotely interesting is mad, in some way or another."
                               -Dr. Who






From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 04:02:11 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:02:11 -0000
Subject: Lupin the Writer
In-Reply-To: <9b8b0d+hfn1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b8i43+uurn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16694

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout, 
> Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The 
> publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than  
> I thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the 
> Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79).  Unless he wrote it AT 
> Hogwarts, he's pretty smart -- maybe after the Snape Prank incident 
> he was inspired.  

> Stephanie


I think he could have written it. After all Lupin IMO appears to be 
the intellectual of the Mauraders.  He would have been in his 6th 
year when, and if, he wrote it.(I'm of the impression that the 
Mauraders left Hogwarts in '76) He does have a scholarly bent so it 
wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to write a book.  Maybe this 
was his way of trying to get the wizarding world to recognize that 
werewolves are not "evil" all of the time, just 12 or 13 days a year.

Also others have pointed out that maybe JKR has used the school books 
to give us some hints about things or characters. Like the 
description of a kneazle fitting Crookshanks.  Just a thought.

Cheers,
  
     Kristin




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 04:05:11 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:05:11 -0000
Subject: Ron's wand
In-Reply-To: <20010410011721.66609.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b8i9n+dr1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16695

'although you can use someone else's wand, 
it won't work as well'  Ollivander

I am re-reading GoF and so far I do not 
see any increase in Ron's magic ability. 
Since the new wand is his not a hand-me-down, 
shouldn't he get better results? 

Bugg  


"Look at this," said Ron, pulling a long 
thin box out of a bag and opening it. 
"Brand-new wand. Fourteen inches, willow, 
containing one unicorn tail-hair." 






From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Apr 14 04:13:26 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: dumbledore to die?!
Message-ID: <20010414041326.00CDE36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16696

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010413/6fb08a80/attachment.ksh>

From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 04:40:26 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:40:26 -0000
Subject: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
In-Reply-To: <200104140359.f3E3xYa23022@mail.tznet.com>
Message-ID: <9b8kbq+48bk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16697

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mulligag at t... wrote:
> 
> Oh, and could someone point me to the posts where it was discussed 
why Sirius thought Remus was the spy?  I'd really like to see other 
people's ideas on that.  (Unless, of course, you'd allow me to bring 
up the subject again?  ^_^)
> 
> Love ya,
> Cristin



That idea came out of PoA(pg. 373 US ver.)

"Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume 
that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over 
Pettigrew's head.

"Forgive me Remus," said Black.

I don't think that topic has been discussed yet and the posts I saw 
during Remus week didn't mention that. They're working from GoF 
backward to SS/PS.

As for my thoughts on the subject:

Someone close to James and Lily had been leaking info about them to 
Voldemort. Since Remus is a dark creature it was natural to suspect 
him. Sirius and James may have believed that because Remus was a 
werewolf Voldemort had some power over him, sort of like the Imperius 
curse and therfore couldn't be trusted. Even though they had known 
Remus since they were all 11, at least, and knew that he was a good 
person they ultimately held the werewolf thing over him. Was it right
for them to do that? Maybe, maybe not. It didn't seem that Remus was 
overly surprised or bothered by the thought. Of course he thought 
Sirius was the spy all those years. 

Cheers,
       Kristin






From natabat at crosswinds.net  Sat Apr 14 04:56:01 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:56:01 -0700
Subject: Assumption that Lupin was the spy (was Re: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?)
References: <200104140359.f3E3xYa23022@mail.tznet.com>
Message-ID: <004601c0c49f$35046ae0$0101a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 16698

mulligag at tznet.com wrote:
<snip>
> Oh, and could someone point me to the posts where it was discussed why
Sirius thought
> Remus was the spy?  I'd really like to see other people's ideas on that.
(Unless, of course,
> you'd allow me to bring up the subject again?  ^_^)
>
> Love ya,
> Cristin

 First off, he (Sirius) was probably figuring that the spy had to be one of
the four Marauders. Solid assumption, since we haven't heard about any of
Lily's or James' other friends. It's obviously not James, Sirius knows it's
not him, and he trusted Peter enough to persuade the Potters to make him the
Secret Keeper. That leaves Remus.

Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
"Why don't you write books people can read?"
- Nora Joyce to her husband, James






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 07:44:50 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:44:50 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks reprised: Observations and Etymology
Message-ID: <LAW2-F39c00goZolmRB000054db@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16699

Indigo,
Sorry, I should have read all the messages before posting!


>  Indigo wrote:

>Clairey confirmed this very thing earlier.  <snip discussion on name and 
>Crookie not animagus>


>Here's a thought.
>Crouch-as-Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret.
>Maybe Crookshanks is some wizard who got turned into a cat and is
>unable to change himself back to his rightful form?
>
>That's an angle I'm not sure I've seen bounced about.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Meow.

Purrr!  I like that!  I wondered if he could temporarily assume human form 
(though I can't quite make it work out) because I thought JKR was glossing 
over something when Sirius writes to Harry that Crooks helped him order the 
Firebolt at the Owl Office.  It's hard to be certain, but even the Hogsmeade 
Owl Office staff would surely find it remarkable for a cat to order a 
broomstick and pay from a Gringotts account.  (Even by delivering a note).  
Sirius says he used Harry's name but his own money - maybe Crookshanks used 
Harry's shape?  Here's the bit from Sirius' letter:
"Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me.  I used your name but 
told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and 
eleven - my own."
_________________________________________________________________________
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 08:04:15 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:04:15 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin the Writer
Message-ID: <LAW2-F134RNsFABZneg00006e9a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16700



Kristin wrote:
>I think he could have written it. After all Lupin IMO appears to be
>the intellectual of the Mauraders.  He would have been in his 6th
>year when, and if, he wrote it.(I'm of the impression that the
>Mauraders left Hogwarts in '76) He does have a scholarly bent so it
>wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to write a book.  Maybe this
>was his way of trying to get the wizarding world to recognize that
>werewolves are not "evil" all of the time, just 12 or 13 days a year.
>
>Also others have pointed out that maybe JKR has used the school books
>to give us some hints about things or characters. Like the
>description of a kneazle fitting Crookshanks.  Just a thought.

It would also be one of the few ways he could make a living, and would make 
his threadbare appearance into a nice little jokey comment on a writer's 
life :)
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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Apr 14 08:17:24 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:17:24 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Fleur, Female DADA prof., return of Moody?, rumor?
Message-ID: <9b912k+iqps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16701

Hi all--

Hope I don't repeat others too much, here...  (I will be repeating 
myself, so that's a warning.  You may want to delete now...)

JKR confirmed at the Edinburgh Book Festival that Mrs. Figg IS a 
squib.  So, I wouldn't think she'd be a viable choice for DADA prof.  
Also, JKR only confirmed that there would be a female DADA prof, she 
didn't say when.  (I know this was already stated, I'm just 
agreeing.)  That info came from the AOL online chat on October 
19, '00.  

Moving on to Fleur, in the same online chat, someone asked JKR why 
her name meant 'flower of the heart' or something, and JKR replied 
that that was close, it's actually "flower of the court", like a 
noblewoman.  Since JKR noted this, I'd be sure that Fleur will be 
back in the books to come--one of them at least.  (I believe Krum 
will be back, too, btw.)  I'm guessing she's some kind of royalty or 
something, a princess maybe.  I suppose she *could* be the fem. DADA 
prof.; she was the student picked from her school to be champion, 
though we didn't really get to see an unhindered performance from 
her.  I kind of hope she's not the fem DADA though.  I'd like that to 
be a new character.  (My pet hope is for a female who is as 
charismatic and intriguing as a combination of Sirius and Remus.)  
Maybe she could be a friend of Lily's; I think that would be a great 
way to get some more info on her...

And, JKR did say that the real Moody will be back at some point, as 
well.  My hunch is that he would be the DADA prof in OoP, as he'd 
have plenty he can teach the kids, and later on when Voldy is 
stronger, Moody might have to go back to being an Auror.  (As an 
aside, Moody is another I think is a prime candidate for 'likely to 
die'.)  

Something I've been wondering about:  is it still rumored that we'll 
meet Remus' brother Romulus?  I know there's no mention of Remus 
having a brother in canon, this is just a rumor.  I hadn't heard it 
mentioned in a while, though the other rumors I heard were based in 
fact--the evil Weasley cousin Icicle who may still happen, that we'd 
meet students from other wizarding schools, etc.  If there -is- a 
Romulus (if JKR goes with that name), he could possibly turn up as a 
DADA prof, too.  There ~is~ only room for three more, unless someone 
dies mid-year...

Kelley 




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 08:34:16 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:34:16 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F129MSB5cwfg1X000071b5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16702

Cristin wrote:
"Well, really, I had to, don't you know,' said an irritable Fudge.  'Black 
is mad.  He's a
>danger to anyone who crosses him, magic or Muggle.  I have the Prime 
>Minister's assurance
>that he will not breathe a word of Black's true identity to anyone.  And 
>let's face it - who'd
>believe him if he did?"
I love the mental picture of Tony Blair explaining that a dangerous wizard 
was on the loose!

>How then, do you suppose each countries respective Ministry keeps the 
>gov'ts and
>organizations quiet?  It can't just be the leader of each country.  Past 
>leaders, going back
>quite far, would have to have known.  As well as advisors, etc.  And these 
>individuals would
>not have family in the Wizarding World,

How can you be so sure?

>and so little incentive to keep them quiet.  wizards
>would have to be going around doing memory charms constantly, IMO.

They pretty much seem to.  And then (can't give chapter and verse I'm 
afraid) but wizards get much amusement out of the way Muggles will refuse to 
notice magic.  Also, the wizarding population must be very small - probably 
around 0.1% of the population, if they can get by with only one school.

>Oh, and could someone point me to the posts where it was discussed why 
>Sirius thought
>Remus was the spy?  I'd really like to see other people's ideas on that.  
>(Unless, of course,
>you'd allow me to bring up the subject again?  ^_^)

The Potters went into hiding because they knew someone very close to them 
was feeding information to Voldemort.  There were only three people in a 
position to be the spy.  Sirius couldn't have suspected Peter Pettigrew 
because he himself suggested Pettigrew be substituted for himself as 
secret-keeper at the last minute.  He knew it wasn't himself.  So that only 
left Remus Lupin.

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From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 09:37:52 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:37:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
References: <LAW2-F129MSB5cwfg1X000071b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0c4c6$94b2fa20$b511eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 16703

Hello,

> notice magic.  Also, the wizarding population must be very small -
probably
> around 0.1% of the population, if they can get by with only one school.

One school?!  That's only Britain.  Three total in Europe.  No doubt there
are a few in Americas.  And a few more in Asia.  Sounds like they have some
sort of school in Africa as well.  In fact, I'd assume that there are
between two to five in each continent.

little Alex




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 09:50:32 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:50:32 +0200
Subject: Blasphemy!!!!!!! (slightly related to moie 2 or 3)
Message-ID: <007201c0c4c8$59e420c0$0c2b07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16704

Ack, sometimes I wonder what's going on in her head. "Her" that would be my mother.

Upon mentioning that I read several times that Robin Williams (yes, the face maker clown) is supposed to have a role in one of the upcoming HP-movies because he's a neighbor of Chris Columbus (and complaining like crazy - with that voice? and that slang? Please! He might, might, maybe, with reluctance, play the fat friar, everyone else is off limits), she suggested he'd be good as... Snape! I think I'm going crazy. I'm the daughter of a loony! Then she said Arthur Weasley, which in my eyes is just as bad.

Argh, just when you think you have educated them to good Potterheads :-( Nearly as bad as her thinking the rat (aka Pettigrew) was Voldemort.

 ~ Dinah ~    

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

People are like stained-glass windows. 
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, 
but when the darkness sets in, 
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 10:16:12 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:16:12 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b8atc+u4v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b981c+ar6c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16705

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > "Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of 
him 
> > wearing Dobby's tea cozy."-Ron Weasley
> 
> yep - that'd be the one for me, too.  
> 
> A close second:  "Oh shut up, Weatherby," said Fred.
> 
> There are many others, but it isn't just the quotes I love; it is 
the 
> way JKR describes things and the way she writes dialogue to make 
one 
> actually hear it... know what I mean?
> 
> Okay, one more for the road:  '"Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid he 
> was," Sirius added, and Harry and Ron grinned at each othe



I love the tea cosy one because it just sums up Ron PERFECTLY!

claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 10:18:29 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:18:29 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b8ghv+qs88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b985l+tdck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at a...> wrote:
> Since it's Ron week here's a couple quotes I like. :)
> 
> "I'm never wearing them," Ron was saying stubbornly. "Never."
> 
> "Fine," snapped Mrs. Weasley. "Go naked. And, Harry, make sure you 
> get a picture of him. Goodness knows I could do with a good laugh."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Ah, think of the possibilities," said Ron dreamily. "It would've 
> been so easy to push Malfoy off a glacier and make it look like an 
> accident...Shame his mother likes him...."
> 
> Kristin


Yeah! Ronisms are the best!




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 10:21:19 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:21:19 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9b86m2+j6ml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b98av+tdk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16707

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" 
<crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hello Everyone!
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > What do you all think that the Hogwarts house elves do in the 
summer 
> > holidays? A HUGE clean up of the castle? 6 weeks is a long time...
> > 
> > claire ?:)
> 
> Good question. I like to thik that they have their own 
lives/families 
> that they visit. Dumbledore treats them really well, so I could see 
> that happening. 
> 
> Or perhaps they take classes too, to further their own special 
brand 
> of magic.
> 
> Or perhaps all the house elves there are one big 
family....hmmm...food 
> for thought, anyway.
> 
> Jamieson


Maybe they all go on holiday together?!?! Can't you just imagine 
loads of little house elves on the beach? weird!


claire :)

ps. From what age do you think little house elves start work?
And I wonder how long they live?




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 10:22:16 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:22:16 -0000
Subject: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <20010414041326.00CDE36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9b98co+jkpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16708

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> >Hmmm...I'm not sure that Sirius will ever be off the 
hook....unless...
> >wormtail gets captured (?).....by Harry (?)....
> >I think that Lupin is more the headmaster type, especially as he 
has 
> >allready taught at Hogwarts....
> >
> >
> >Also, why didn't Harry write to Lupin about his scar hurting? If 
he 
> >is depressive I can understand him not wanting to trouble AD, but 
why 
> >not Lupin? After all he DID teach DADA...
> >After what they went through together in PoA you would have 
thought 
> >Harry would see him as more of a friend/father figure.
> >
> 
> IMVHO, I think that Harry wanted to only tell someone who he knew 
he could trust, someone that he is close to. I think that he -likes- 
Lupin and respects him, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's close 
to him. 
> ~Echo
> 
I guess...
claire




From dasienko at email.com  Sat Apr 14 11:12:48 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:12:48 -0000
Subject: Blasphemy!!!!!!! (slightly related to moie 2 or 3)
In-Reply-To: <007201c0c4c8$59e420c0$0c2b07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9b9bbg+72m0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16709

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote:
> Ack, sometimes I wonder what's going on in her head. "Her" that 
would be my mother.
> 
> Upon mentioning that I read several times that Robin Williams (yes, 
the face maker clown) is supposed to have a role in one of the 
upcoming HP-movies because he's a neighbor of Chris Columbus (and 
complaining like crazy - with that voice? and that slang?........


This is OT I'm sure, but Dinah, I guess you've never  seen Dead Poets 
Society, Awakenings, and his Academy Award winning role in Good Will 
Hunting. (among Others). Robin Williams is a Classically Trained 
actor ( Yale or Julliard).

There has been some chatter that the rumor that Robin will appear in 
an HP movie is False. But if I were asked to cast him I see him as 
Lupin.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 11:31:40 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:31:40 -0000
Subject: Moderators: When are we slated to discuss....
In-Reply-To: <002701c0c474$411f61c0$6749d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9b9ces+ioso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16710


*Groan* Leave it to me to miss tat one!!




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <rainy_lilac at y...>
> 
> >
> > The man so many of us lust for, Sirius Black?
> >
> > *wriggling in my seat and sighing audibly*
> >
> > Seriously, *groan* I ask in the interests of order-- I think 
slotting
> > certain weeks to talk about one character or another in depth is a
> > system that is working very well!
> 
> Count on me to answer this question...We had a week of Sirius 
discussion on
> Sirius in March.  I did a summary (message#13471) and Randy also 
did a
> parody character summary (message#13204).  I think you were MIA 
during that
> time.  Feel free to read the summary and post any discussion 
comments you
> might have and I know at least 3-4 people who would love to join 
in...right
> Monika?
> 
> And how is that mermaid fic coming anyway?  (grin)
> 
> carole




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Apr 14 11:47:16 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:47:16 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Assumption that Lupin was the spy - Sirius
In-Reply-To: <004601c0c49f$35046ae0$0101a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEACCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16711

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Natalie [mailto:natabat at crosswinds.net]

>  First off, he (Sirius) was probably figuring that the spy had to be one of
> the four Marauders. Solid assumption, since we haven't heard about any of
> Lily's or James' other friends. It's obviously not James, Sirius knows it's
> not him, and he trusted Peter enough to persuade the Potters to make him the
> Secret Keeper. That leaves Remus.

In the conversation in the Three Broomsticks Fudge said that Dumbledore
knew that someone close to the Potters had been passing information
to Voldemort for a while. Both Lupin and Sirius must have known that, too.
>From what Sirius said in the Shrieking Shack I assume that he didn't trust
Peter, but that he thought he wasn't smart enough to be the spy. So
he concluded it must be Lupin. And vice versa. No one suspected little,
talentless Peter, they all underestimated him. And both Lupin and Sirius
admitted in the Shrieking Shack that they suspected each other rather than
Peter.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net]

> We had a week of Sirius discussion on
> Sirius in March.  I did a summary (message#13471) and Randy also did a
> parody character summary (message#13204).  I think you were MIA during that
> time.  Feel free to read the summary and post any discussion comments you
> might have and I know at least 3-4 people who would love to join in...right
> Monika?

I think you can count on me. :) As much as I like the other characters,
I'm always looking for an occasion to discuss our favorite wizard...
> 
> And how is that mermaid fic coming anyway?  (grin)

What mermaid fic?

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 12 13:31:43 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:31:43 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F72GNsokLQ8aZR00004c4f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16712

Koinonia wrote:

>If Snape is truly such an evil and mean person why does Dumbledore
>allow him to stay?  Why did D. invite Snape to Hogwarts in the first
>place?  I am just saying there is more to Snape then we have seen.

Evil? No.  Mean? Yes!  I imagine D's reasons were
1) As an ex DE who secretly spied for the good guys, he is probably in some 
danger and Hogwarts is the safest place for him.
2)  I think JKR said something to the effect that D believes there are many 
ways to learn, which I took to mean that if there were no unpleasant 
characters and no danger at Hogwarts, it wouldn't be a very good preparation 
for the real world.  True, and it wouldn't be a very interesting story 
either.
3) I'm sure there *are* reasons we don't know about yet.  "Things are not 
what they seem" *is* a major theme, and there are plenty of hints that Snape 
has done/will do something courageous and admirable.

Someone on this list (sorry, can't remember who) put it very well when they 
said that Harry is in the process of learning that the good guys are not 
always the nice guys.  (Tom Riddle seems like a nice guy, until you get to 
know him better).  You can be mistaken about someone's allegiances, but you 
can't be mistaken about whether someone has bullied you, and Snape is a 
bully, whatever else he may be.  I am prepared to give him credit when he 
does something to deserve it, but so far, he hasn't.  I know he saved 
Harry's life in the bucking broomstick episode, but that was just his duty.

> >
> > "Professor Snape was forcing them to research antidotes.  They took
>this
> > seriously, as he had hinted that he might be poisoning one of them
>before
> > Christmas to see if their antidote worked."
>
>
>I personally thought this was a very funny part.  There is no way
>Snape would ever poison one of the students!

I know - it made me laugh too :) and I never thought he would poison anyone. 
  I just put it in because I like it!  The *truly* evil characters are never 
treated in a humourous way, and Snape's behaviour is often so outrageous 
it's funny.  Making Neville test his potion on his beloved Trevor is both a 
horrible thing to do and a very funny scene.

I suppose what prompted my post in the first place is that I see Snape 
getting cut a lot of slack on the strength of something we don't know about, 
while not getting much stick for the things we do know about.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 12:24:31 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:24:31 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Some comments on unfriendliness/ignored posts etc 
Message-ID: <013801c0c4dd$f7bab9c0$c23670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16713

Hi everyone,

There have been quite a few reactions and responses to Andrea's recent
message, so I thought I'd would offer you my own thoughts..


THANKS AND SUPPORT

Firstly, thanks to those of you who offered toasts to the moderators, or
otherwise supported us.  I don't think we deserve to be toasted to be
honest, but I'd rather we weren't flamed either (actually, I'm feeling a bit
chargrilled at the moment, but let's not get into that).


IS THIS LIST CLIQUISH OR UNFRIENDLY?

People have discussed possible "unfriendliness" or "cliquish" behaviour on
this group.  Celeste made an interesting observation:

"I have a feeling that people tend to form a certain respect for the
opinions of some older members (I mean older as in 'having been on this list
longer), and that to a certain degree, if the name is commonly seen and the
person has well-supported theories, that person is more likely to have their
posts looked at."

I think that is true and perhaps inevitable, but it isn't just a question of
having respect for other oldbies on the list; it has more to do with
familiarity and plain old human nature.  As we learn about other (vocal)
members of the group, we get to know their opinions, their style, their good
and bad points, their sense of humour, their hot buttons, a little about
their real lives.  Any newbie will spot immediately that some people on the
list seem to know each other and that some have formed allegiances on
certain topics; it would be odd if that hadn't happened on a list of 1100+
people!  It would only turn to cliquishness if we deliberately excluded new
people from discussions and failed to acknowledge them at all.  I haven't
seen any evidence for that.

As Heidi said the other day, we were all new to this group at one time or
another.  Some of us will have received a deluge of responses to our first
post and others will have sneaked in barely noticed.  Some of us will have
dived right into the thick of a discussion and others will have lurked for
ages before making a nervous first post.  At the end of the day, all newbies
will become oldbies if they stick around long enough.

Another point worth making is that newer members often respond to each
other, while the more established members of the list bow out of discussions
that, for them, have been done to death.  However, if one of the moderators
or another list member suggests that people look at the VFAQ or search the
archives, this is not intended as an unfriendly or dismissive gesture, it is
meant to be helpful.  We are trying to keep the message volume under control
as far as possible, so it's sometimes better to point someone at a recent
discussion or FAQ than have to repeat the whole thing; however, if the topic
was discussed some time ago, I'd say it's often worth revisiting.


GETTING NO RESPONSES TO A POST?

Some people have commented on getting no responses to their posts.  I have
to say that this phenomenon is not confined to new members - we all
experience it at one time or another.  I have posted things in the past that
received zero response and then seen someone else make exactly the same
point and start a huge thread. That's the nature of a huge list like this
and I think the behavioural pattern Amanda described is part of the reason.

The other thing to remember is that 'no responses' does not equal 'ignored'.
People sometimes read messages, but decide against responding, perhaps
because they accept the points made, but don't have much to say beyond, "I
agree with you!"  On the other hand, some people lurk and never post to the
list, but they will still read what others have to say.  I'm quite happy to
throw an opinion into the mix and not get any direct responses, because
someone else may be able to bounce their ideas off mine.

My advice to new members is to make some comments on an ongoing thread,
whilst reviewing our VFAQ and some of the most recent list threads.  When
you've familiarised yourself with your surroundings, try starting a thread
yourself.  If no one responds, go with the flow and try something else
later.


WELCOMING NEW PEOPLE

It's clear that the influx of new members here is astounding, and often the
best the moderators can do is say "welcome to all the recent new members".
I think it's great that other list members offer a welcome to newbies and I
would urge people to continue doing that when responding to a first post.
It's not always obvious to other list members that someone is new, if they
haven't seen the line "Hi I'm new" or something similar, so don't feel
offended if you seem to be under an Invisibility Cloak.  If your name is
Amy, it's even more confusing, as there are at least 200 of you... (j/k!).

As Penny has already said, we are recruiting some 'newbie moderators' to
deal specifically with new members.  All those members who suffered John's
April Fool hoax should note that this was his suggestion, so I think he has
tipped the scales back towards "Good John".

Be assured, everyone is welcome here if they are prepared to discuss JK
Rowling's work and have a good time.

A reminder that if any new members have any questions or comments about the
list they can e-mail the moderators at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

I wish you all happy Harry Potter discussions and a wonderful Easter.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 12:48:15 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:48:15 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Fleur, Female DADA prof., return of Moody?, rumor?
In-Reply-To: <9b912k+iqps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9guf+44lv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16714

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> Hi all--
> 
> Hope I don't repeat others too much, here...  (I will be repeating 
> myself, so that's a warning.  You may want to delete now...)
> 
> JKR confirmed at the Edinburgh Book Festival that Mrs. Figg IS a 
> squib.  So, I wouldn't think she'd be a viable choice for DADA prof.  
> Also, JKR only confirmed that there would be a female DADA prof, she 
> didn't say when.  (I know this was already stated, I'm just 
> agreeing.)  That info came from the AOL online chat on October 
> 19, '00.  
>  though the other rumors I heard were based in 
> fact--the evil Weasley cousin Icicle who may still happen, .
> 
> Kelley

How can Mrs. Figg  be a squib if she is also Arabella Figg?  How is it 
possible that a squib would be part of the "old crowd"?.  I don't get 
it.

JKR also said on an online chat that there is no such character as 
Icicle and seemed annoyed at the rumors.

BTW, I still can't imagine Fleur being the DADA professor.  She scored 
quite poorly in the Triwizard Tournament and cheated as much as the 
others, to boot.  That doesn't make me trust her to educate our 
beloved Hogwarts students in DADA.  I do think she and Bill will have 
a thing, though - she sure was checking him out before the third task!

--jenny from ra




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 12:59:07 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:59:07 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: One line posts/editing
Message-ID: <015701c0c4e2$c5a2aec0$c23670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16715

Hi everyone,

You thought I'd gone away to make a cup of tea and get out of your hair, but you were wrong!  I have my wand out and it's twitching... 

Okay, I won't treat you to the entire list of netiquette tips, but I would like to remind you of a couple that one or two of you must have wiped from your minds (Memory Charms backfiring, perhaps?): -


ONE-LINERS

In the interests of keeping the message volume down, please think twice before posting one line messages or responses to the list.  Spare a thought for those people whose e-mail boxes are starting to resemble an overstuffed turkey.  In some cases, it might be best to drop an e-mail to the person rather than comment on list; in other cases, you could, perhaps, combine your short comment with some points on another topic.  


EDITING YOUR RESPONSE POSTS

When replying to long messages, try to clip out the parts of the original to which you are responding, rather than including the message in its entirety and putting your comments underneath.  The usual convention is the use <snip> or a few dots ... to indicate where you have removed parts of the original text, but you can often choose one or two whole paragraphs that indicate the gist of the original post.

Another option is to write a short indicative summary before your response, such as:

"[Insert daft or confusing nickname] was talking about the fact that this, that and the other happened.."

As long as it's clear which message you are responding to, people will be able to refer to the exact wording of the original post if they wish.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 13:00:43 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:00:43 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9b98av+tdk0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9hlr+8luv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16716


> 
> 
> claire :)
> 
> ps. From what age do you think little house elves start work?
> And I wonder how long they live?

What I'd like to know is why most house elves seem to enjoy what they 
do.  Perhaps the Malfoys were the worst owners around, but Crouch 
treated poor Winky terribly as well.  Why do they take such pride in 
being owned?  And, if they are so magical, why do they not defend 
themselves more often?  These questions have been bothering me quite a 
lot.

If I look back in history at Africans being enslaved here in the 
States, I know that many of them were terrified to run away from their 
masters because of the consequences of getting caught (which was 
likely).  However, it is clear to me that they hated being enslaved, 
as their songs and memoirs tell us.  I'm not sure, then, where JKR is 
going with the house elf thing, even though I know repression and 
discrimination is a complicated issue.  Sorry if this has already been 
discussed to death.

--jenny fr




From dasienko at email.com  Sat Apr 14 13:14:51 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:14:51 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9b9hlr+8luv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9igb+s7o7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16717

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > claire :)
> > 
> > ps. From what age do you think little house elves start work?
> > And I wonder how long they live?
> 
> What I'd like to know is why most house elves seem to enjoy what 
they 
.  Why do they take such pride in 
> being owned?  And, if they are so magical, why do they not defend 
> themselves more often?  These questions have been bothering me 
quite a 
> lot.

I think of The House elves as being attached to a family rather than 
owned by a family. The model for their realtionship is probably 
closer to the English "UPSTAIRS, DOWNSTAIRS"  servant/family 
realtionship than slavery. 
IF indeed the elves are very powerful magical creatures, then there 
must be something in their  History that made them want to rein in 
their powers and direct them somehow.  
It was once mentioned that the language patterns of elves are slave- 
like. I see the language of the elves being closer to Elizabethean 
English. Dobby and Winky sometimes seem like they just walked out of 
Arden forest. HMMM, maybe I'll go back and re-read THE TEMPEST and A 
MIDSUMMER"S NIGHT DREAM. I'm starting to get glimmers of parallels.






From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Apr 14 13:51:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:51:07 -0500
Subject: The Ron/Harry Fight; Ron's Prejudice; Percy; & a smidge of ADMIN
Message-ID: <3AD855CB.8F6891D0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16718

Hi everyone --

No sign of baby yet!  It seems she will be more like my husband (late)
than me (punctual to a fault)!  Well .... she could still be punctual,
but it's not looking that way.  :--)

RON/HARRY FIGHT -- I just wanted to add a big "Me too" to the thought
that Arabella originally voiced about how the portrayal of Ron in the
common room (the night he disrupted the conversation between Harry &
Sirius) is meant to awaken our sympathies.  That was beautifully put
Arabella, and I couldn't agree more.  I'm not always terribly
sympathetic to Ron, but I definitely was at that point.  I felt very
badly for both of them, but I do think JKR was emphasizing Ron's
vulnerability.  I also think it's pretty clear that he was likely trying
to make overtures at an apology that evening, since, as someone said,
why else would he wander down to the common room?

RON & PREJUDICE

Rosmerta wrote:

> I've been trying to figure out why I was so shocked/suprised when
> people first raised the "Ron is prejudiced" argument, and I think
> I've worked it out: It seems that JKR uses him a lot of the time, by
> necessity, to carry her water. In the trio, he's the mouthpiece of
> the wizarding world. <snip>  But Ron, as the only wizard-raised
> person in the trio, gets stuck doing a lot of explaining on the
> author's behalf, i.e. this is what most wizards think of werewolves,
> this is what most wizards believe about grims, this is what most of
> us were told about giants. All potentially predjudiced, but don't
> forget it's also Ron who explains about Quidditch, wizard candy, the
> joys of Hogsmeade, etc. The examples are endless.
>
Well, I do think Ron is more than just explaining that this is what most
wizards think about these topics.  He's more than an objective
mouthpiece.  "Get away from me, werewolf!"  I can't recall specific GoF
quotes re: the giants & house-elves, but I think in most instances he
goes beyond merely objectively explaining the popular wizarding stance.
He shakes his head at Hermione's comments, implying in my mind that he
thinks she's just dense!  In the example that I provided earlier this
week, it certainly seems that while he's made an exception for Hagrid,
he has retained a general overall negative impression of giants.  I
think Ron, for the most part, does share the prejudices that are common
to the wizarding world.  In his defense, he quite obviously does not
share the prejudice of some pureblood families against "mudbloods"
though!  But, I don't think he's just an objective mouthpiece for JKR
either.  She could have used several other characters to accomplish this
for one thing.  Ernie Macmillan could have piped up with something in a
herbology lesson.  Fred or George could have made a comment at dinner.
She could have even used Draco & the Slytherins again to make the point
about giants.  But, she chose Ron instead.

PERCY -- For all of it being "Ron week," we've had alot of Percy
discussions this last week!  That's okay by me -- I love Percy.  I like
Amanda's suggestion of the parallels between Percy & Draco's
situations.  I can't decide if I think Percy will recognize the Voldy
threat & Fudge's ineffectiveness immediately when he hears the family
stories or if it will indeed take some time, personal soul-searching &
perhaps a moral crisis at some point.  I think the latter is more
likely.  More dramatic effect in any case.  But, I have no doubt that
Percy will side with his family *eventually*!

ADMIN:  Thanks to the Mechanimagus Moderator for such great ADMIN
reminders.

> The other thing to remember is that 'no responses' does not equal
> 'ignored'.  People sometimes read messages, but decide against responding, perhaps
> because they accept the points made, but don't have much to say beyond, "I
> agree with you!"
>
This is very true!  I *loved* Gwen's post on Snape yesterday, but I had
nothing original to add, so I didn't comment at all.  I agreed with
Amanda's brilliant analysis of the role of the goblins a couple of weeks
ago, but couldn't think of any original thoughts to add so ....

Conversely, no one has yet commented on my ... ahem .... *brilliant*
(IMHO) analysis of why Harry clearly would not favor either of his best
friends over the other.  Sigh.  Oh well.  I'll just assume I'm right.
<g>  That's the beauty of noone commenting on your posts; you just take
the egomanical approach that everyone must agree with you or they'd pipe
up.  [I'm taking the similar approach with my long analysis of why
participation on this group colors perceptions to the same extent
(albeit in a different way) than reading fanfic].

No idea when I'm disappearing, but I'm glad to see that you're in good
hands with the other Moderators.  BTW, when mailing the Moderators at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com, please address your mail to
"Moderators" rather than to "Penny."  You're making the others feel
bad!  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 13:49:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:49:53 -0000
Subject: UK/US - Writer, spy RL - SS on Harry - wealth
Message-ID: <9b9ki1+fe8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16719

Hiya Storm (what a beautiful name--is it your real name or is your 
real name Snuffles? <g>), 

>I would like to point out 
>though (as someone else had) that JKR made the changes as part of 
getting PS 
>published in the US. I think that she might have been putting on a 
'brave face' 
>about the changes in the previously quoted interviews.

>Do I have any support for this (in or out of cannon <g>)? No I don't. 
So if 
>anyone has a link to an interview or other source that support my 
view please 
>chime in.

I think the best support is that the later books seem to make fewer 
changes.  I have no statistical support for this--even the terrific 
page on hpgalleries.com isn't exhaustive--but having read the UK 
versions and listened to the US versions, I'll say anecdotally that 
this is the case.  I can't help thinking that the more restrained 
editing in the later books, if it is in fact more restrained, reflects 
(1) JKR's confidence that she can hold the line and (2) the 
publisher's confidence that at this point, US kids will read Harry 
Potter even if it's written in Finno-Ugric.

Stephanie wrote:

>Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout, 
>Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The 
>publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than I 
>thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the 
>Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79). 

I don't think there's much wiggle room on the Marauders' graduation 
date anymore.  Lupin says "we [i.e., he and Snape] were in the same 
year at Hogwarts," and we know Snape's graduation date within a very 
narrow range from JKR's recent chat where she said he was 35 or 36.  
He was born no earlier than 1955 (that would make him 36 at the 
beginning of PS/SS) and no later than 1960 (that would make him 35 at 
the end of GoF).

What we don't know is how old Lupin was when he started school; he 
might have been older than the usual 11 due to not being allowed in 
until AD became head.  If he entered at the usual age, he was ~15 at 
publication date.  

The only other wiggle room we can get ourselves is if =Snape= entered 
school at an unusual age.

Anyway, enough math.  I lean against Lupin being the author for a 
couple of personal, indefensible reasons.  One is that I like the 
expansion of the werewolf universe beyond the one person we've met.  
Another is that the title is so goofy, and I, who think Lupin is 
perfect in every way, don't want to believe he wrote something that 
sappy!  (Maybe the publisher made him change the title.  Not that 
publishers ever do anything like that. <g>)

Cristin wrote:

>why Sirius thought Remus was the spy? 

Lots of people have answered this, but I still wonder about the flip 
side of the question:  if it was natural to suspect someone very close 
to the Potters, which of course it was, then why was Sirius so sure it 
wasn't Peter?

Rebecca wrote:

>And when it comes to evaluating Snape I think we have to
>remember, or at least try to remember, that Snape is simply not privy 
to a
>lot of information that we, the readers, know about thanks to sharing
>Harry's POV.  And that includes Harry's innocence (or at least 
innocent
>motives) in a lot of cases where he gets nailed by Snape, or 
threatened by
>Snape, for breaking Hogwarts rules.  How can Snape know anything 
about Harry
>except what he sees with his own eyes -- much of which involves
>disobedience, insubordination, etc. and is thus pretty damning?

But he sees Harry day in, day out, and Harry does a lot more than 
break rules.  As a teacher, if your eyes are open, you learn a lot 
about your students' personalities.  You see them interacting with 
their friends; you know what kinds of things they talk about; etc.  We 
know Harry is a nice person, not only because we're privy to his 
thoughts and private conversations, but because of the way he acts 
publicly.  His fellow students like him; so why wouldn't his teachers? 
 I think they do like him and know he's a good, decent kid, unless 
they're so prejudiced against him that they refuse to see anything 
positive about him.  ::cough::

Milz wrote:

>LOL, for all we know, Harry
>could be as wealthy as the Weasley's, but because the Weasley's money
>is spent on the daily living expenses of Arthur, Molly, the Burrow,
>and the dependent Weasley children, it appears less.

In CoS, Harry's vault is full of gold, while the Weasleys' is almost 
empty even before they clean it out for the expenses of Diagon Alley. 
 But of course, the Weasleys do have income, whereas Harry's just 
spending his down.  Wonder what kind of interest Gringott's gives?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 13:52:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:52:19 -0000
Subject: Bugs
Message-ID: <9b9kmj+8uge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16720

Penny confessed:

>Believe me, I have an intense phobia of
>palmetto bugs (large flying cockroaches

Which Lupin, for some odd reason, finds comical.  Does anyone have an 
explanation for why his moon-Boggart turns into a cockroach?  I would 
have expected something that was somehow related to its scary form, 
e.g. the moon displays a silly face (which would work well for a 
crystal ball too and therefore not spoil the red herring).

Indigo wrote:

<lots of neat thoughts on Crookshanks snipped--love the alternative 
etymology!>

>I'm not sure if Ron's phobia of Spiders came up in PoA. I can't
>remember. I do, however, know that Crookshanks leapt into Hermione's
>lap with a large spider in his mouth and watched Ron the whole time 
he
>ate it, even after Ron made it clear he was disturbed: "Does he have
>to eat that here?"
>
>To me, anyway, that implies it did come up at some point, and
>Crookshanks knew enough to use it against Ron.

I was just rereading that too, and I had a different thought:  Is 
catching and eating a spider in front of Ron Crookshanks' attempt to 
communicate to Ron that he's on his side?  "Look, I'm killing spiders 
for you . . . I'm a good guy!"  The narration says he stared 
insolently at Ron the whole while, but this may be a misinterpretation 
by Harry; after the fact, I can see it as an attempt at a meaningful 
look.

I just thought it was too coincidental that it was a =spider= he was 
eating.  It isn't to frighten Ron, because Ron isn't frightened of 
=dead= spiders, and he doesn't seem scared in this scene, just grossed 
out.

>Nobody thinks twice of a rat with human food tastes until you look 
back and discover he was a human
>in rat shape.
>
>But Crookshanks ate a spider. 

Also, rats will eat just about anything, if I'm not mistaken (my 
knowledge of rat behavior comes entirely from Charlotte's Web).  I 
wouldn't blink at a rat that liked Fudge Flies.

Anyway, maybe when Animagi are in their animal forms, they have animal 
tastes.  So eating rats, while not the most pleasant thing, wasn't as 
bad for Padfoot as it would have been for Sirius.  Dogs do eat rats, 
even though they'd prefer a nice steak.

When else do we see Scabbers eating human food?  As far as we know he 
did eat rat pellets most of the time during his 12 years with the 
Weasleys.  They might have fed him table scrapings (the cheapest way 
to feed a rat, I imagine), but that wouldn't exactly give Peter the 
food he was accustomed to as a human.  Yum, potato peels!

FWIW, I =don't= think Crookshanks is an Animagus.  Anne, your reason 
is the most brilliant I've seen (his name would've shown up on the 
Map)!  I never thought of that!  I just thought the unregistered 
animagi thing had been used enough.  A magical cat is quite 
interesting enough.

Amy Z
wondering whether Amanda's Jan survived his first 5 minutes home or if 
the black widow got him

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 13:53:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:53:33 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b8ghv+qs88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9kot+u939@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16721

 "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred 
indignantly.
 "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said 
George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
 "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.

and

 "I thought it sounded a bit like Percy singing.  Maybe you've got to 
attack him while he's in the shower, Harry."

(foreshadowing of when Percy joins the Dark Lord?  j/k!)

and

 "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
 "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--and an excellent 
dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.

and

 "What is this thing?" said Moody, drawing the Marauder's Map out of 
his pocket and unfolding it.
 "Map of Hogwarts," said Harry. . . .
 "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical 
eye going haywire.  "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" 
 "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. 

I just love that one.  Very deadpan.

and

 "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye Moody," said Mrs. Weasley 
sternly.
 "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he," said Fred quietly, as 
Mrs. Weasley left the room.  "Birds of a feather."

and, proving that Hermione can do it too:

"You've got just as much right as wizards to be unhappy!"

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 13:56:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:56:07 -0000
Subject: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
In-Reply-To: <200104140359.f3E3xYa23022@mail.tznet.com>
Message-ID: <9b9ktn+8ujs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16722

Cristin wrote (welcome, Cristin!):

>We would, I suppose, have to then extrapolate that then most, if not 
all, of the
>important 
>world governments and organizations would be aware of the wizarding 
world.
>
>How then, do you suppose each countries respective Ministry keeps the 
gov'ts and 
>organizations quiet?  It can't just be the leader of each country.  
Past
>leaders, going back 
>quite far, would have to have known.  As well as advisors, etc.  And 
these
>individuals would 
>not have family in the Wizarding World, and so little incentive to 
keep them
>quiet.  wizards 
>would have to be going around doing memory charms constantly, IMO.
>
>Any ideas on how the relations would work?

When a new US president comes in, he's immediately briefed on all 
sorts of stuff that the previous president knew.  God only knows what 
kinds of things--it's all sorts of security briefings about things 
that I'm sure are not common knowledge even high up in the 
government:  you know, our secret plan to invade Benin, the secret 
passageway between the White House and Burger King that's hidden 
behind the portrait of Washington, that kind of thing.  (I suspect 
that all the living past presidents know who killed Kennedy.  J/K, 
sort of.)  

So I think the fact that there's a secret wizarding community and 
ministry in each country could be that kind of fact that gets passed 
on and is known only by a few advisors with very high security 
clearances.  Also, leaking it would bring very high penalties.  Leak 
who killed JFK, and your entire family will end up at the bottom of 
the East River.  Leak the fact that there's a wizarding world, and 
your entire family will be turned into three-toed sloths...

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
 dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
 storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
 again by a giant sea-monster.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 14:00:04 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:00:04 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
Message-ID: <9b9l54+b89a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16723

(I searched and didn't find this discussed...if someone remembers it, 
please direct me to the thread if you can.)

The duelling club scene makes me wonder whether Snape already 
suspected that Harry was a Parselmouth and deliberately made him 
confront a snake.

Herewith the scene with much snipping:

**********************************************************************

  "Longbottom and Finch-Fletchley, how about you?' [says Lockhart]
  "A bad idea, Professor Lockhart," said Snape . . . . "How about 
Malfoy and Potter?" said Snape with a twisted smile.

   <various stuff with Lockhart>

   Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in 
his ear.  Malfoy smirked too. . . .

   Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed "Serpensortia!"
   The end of his wand exploded.  Harry watched, aghast, as a long 
black snake shot out of it, fell heavily onto the floor between them 
and raised itself, ready to strike. . . .
   "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight 
of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake.  "I'll 
get rid of it. . ."

   <Lockhart scares it towards Justin, Harry makes it stop, Justin 
reacts angrily>

   Snape stepped forward, waved his wand and the snake vanished in a 
small puff of black smoke.  Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an 
unexpected way:  it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry 
didn't like it.

**********************************************************************

So, to my question:  of all the things he could do, why does Snape 
cause Draco to set a snake on Harry?

Does Snape already suspect Harry of knowing Parseltongue?  What would 
give him that idea before this incident?

Does he suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin even before this 
incident?  Again, why would he?

Or did he just suggest a nasty spell and didn't have any idea that a 
snake would reveal something telling about Harry?  His "shrewd and 
calculating" look could just mean he's wondering =now=, or that he now 
sees a way to give Potter a very hard time.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 However, it is easy to repulse the Pogrebin 
 with simple hexes or Stupefying Charms.  
 Kicking has also been found effective.
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 14:07:58 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:07:58 -0000
Subject: Assumption that Lupin was the spy - Sirius
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEACCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9b9lju+lr9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at e...]
> 
> > We had a week of Sirius discussion on
> > Sirius in March.  I did a summary (message#13471) and Randy also 
did a
> > parody character summary (message#13204).  I think you were MIA 
during that
> > time.  Feel free to read the summary and post any discussion 
comments you
> > might have and I know at least 3-4 people who would love to join 
in...right
> > Monika?
> 
> I think you can count on me. :) As much as I like the other 
characters,
> I'm always looking for an occasion to discuss our favorite wizard...
> > 
> > And how is that mermaid fic coming anyway?  (grin)
> 
> What mermaid fic?
> 
> Monika
> 


Well, he sure is my favorite, but I also am enjoying these other 
discussions. 

I was looking at pictures of Gabriel Byrne on the web recently and 
thought to myself "What a good Sirius he would be..." Here I go 
again...

The mermaid fic is my own fanfiction in progress-- It takes place 
during that summer after PoA and details what Sirius was up to on that 
tropical island. A pretty mermaid with a taste for pina coladas plays 
a large part. I hope to have a readbale draft sometime soon....

--Suzanne




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 14 14:12:39 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:12:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] S. Snape suspected snake speech?
References: <9b9l54+b89a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD85AD7.EDA12AC9@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16725

Hello All!

Amy Z wrote:

> (I searched and didn't find this discussed...if someone remembers it,
> please direct me to the thread if you can.)
>
> The duelling club scene makes me wonder whether Snape already
> suspected that Harry was a Parselmouth and deliberately made him
> confront a snake.
>
> Herewith the scene with much snipping:
>
> **********************************************************************
>
>   "Longbottom and Finch-Fletchley, how about you?' [says Lockhart]
>   "A bad idea, Professor Lockhart," said Snape . . . . "How about
> Malfoy and Potter?" said Snape with a twisted smile.
>
>    <various stuff with Lockhart>
>
>    Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in
> his ear.  Malfoy smirked too. . . .
>
>    Malfoy raised his wand quickly and bellowed "Serpensortia!"
>    The end of his wand exploded.  Harry watched, aghast, as a long
> black snake shot out of it, fell heavily onto the floor between them
> and raised itself, ready to strike. . . .
>    "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight
> of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye with the angry snake.  "I'll
> get rid of it. . ."
>
>    <Lockhart scares it towards Justin, Harry makes it stop, Justin
> reacts angrily>
>
>    Snape stepped forward, waved his wand and the snake vanished in a
> small puff of black smoke.  Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an
> unexpected way:  it was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry
> didn't like it.
>
> **********************************************************************
>
> So, to my question:  of all the things he could do, why does Snape
> cause Draco to set a snake on Harry?
>
> Does Snape already suspect Harry of knowing Parseltongue?  What would
> give him that idea before this incident?
>
> Does he suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin even before this
> incident?  Again, why would he?
>
> Or did he just suggest a nasty spell and didn't have any idea that a
> snake would reveal something telling about Harry?  His "shrewd and
> calculating" look could just mean he's wondering =now=, or that he now
> sees a way to give Potter a very hard time.
>
> Amy Z

My view on that is this: Snape knew Malfoy and Harry hated each other. And he favours Malfoy, so why not put two arch enemies together? I think he wanted to scare Harry any way possible. Part of me suspects Snape of knowing exactly what was
going to happen, and another part of me wonders if even Snape can plan that far ahead...just mho.

Hugs and Bright Blessings
Jamieson

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sat Apr 14 14:58:41 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:58:41 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <9b9l54+b89a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9oj1+ug1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>> So, to my question:  of all the things he could do, why does 
Snape  cause Draco to set a snake on Harry? Does Snape already 
suspect Harry of knowing Parseltongue?  What would give him that idea 
before this incident? Does he suspect him of being the Heir of 
Slytherin even before this incident?  Again, why would he? Or did he 
just suggest a nasty spell and didn't have any idea that a snake 
would reveal something telling about Harry?  His "shrewd and 
calculating" look could just mean he's wondering =now=, or that he 
now sees a way to give Potter a very hard time.<<

No. I seriously doubt that Snape had any idea about Harry's 
Parseltongue. Why the snake spell? Because he thought it'd be 
something fun for Malfoy to pull, and he wanted to see Harry squirm, 
IMO. Hey, Slytherins just *love* their serpents, I suppose. Also, it 
did make for a nice bit of foreshadowing on JKR's part; don't forget 
the fact that it could have simply been a plot device, as I suspect 
it was. I don't even entertain the idea that he thinks Harry is the 
Heir of Slytherin; he *knows* as much as Dumbledore, I think, about 
Voldy's lineage, being it that he was a DE and a spy. After the 
attack on Mrs. Norris, Snape sneerily says, "Potter and his friends 
may have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time." Now, 
that's not to say he doesn't suspect Harry of doing something else 
(like prowling the corridors for some other no-good reason), but it 
does lend to the fact that he doesn't think Harry is the Heir. Snape, 
with his experience as a DE, would know that Harry would need some 
sort of advanced Dark Magic to petrify those people.

Lyda

"Most unfortunately, you are not in my House, and the decision to 
expel you does not rest with me. I shall go and fetch the people who 
do have that happy power. You will wait here."
--Severus Snape, HP and the CoS





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat Apr 14 15:30:47 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:30:47 -0000
Subject: Blasphemy!!!!!!! (slightly related to moie 2 or 3)
In-Reply-To: <9b9bbg+72m0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9qf7+sabt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16727

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote:
> > Ack, sometimes I wonder what's going on in her head. "Her" that 
> would be my mother.
> > 
> > Upon mentioning that I read several times that Robin Williams 
(yes, 
> the face maker clown) is supposed to have a role in one of the 
> upcoming HP-movies because he's a neighbor of Chris Columbus (and 
> complaining like crazy - with that voice? and that slang?........
> 
> 
> This is OT I'm sure, but Dinah, I guess you've never  seen Dead 
Poets 
> Society, Awakenings, and his Academy Award winning role in Good 
Will 
> Hunting. (among Others). Robin Williams is a Classically Trained 
> actor ( Yale or Julliard).
> 
> There has been some chatter that the rumor that Robin will appear 
in 
> an HP movie is False. But if I were asked to cast him I see him as 
> Lupin.

I recall reading somewhere that Williams was only going to have a 
cameo, and an uncredited one at that.  which would be comparable to 
his roles in DEAD AGAIN (the psychologist in the meat locker) and in 
BARON MUNCHAUSEN (king of the moon)

Which would lead me to believe that he's probably going to get a small 
role like Florean Fortescue or one of the wizards Harry encountered 
growing up who bowed and shook his hand before Harry knew why.

And we need to move this thread to OT-Chatter, most likely...but since 
I'm already here, I did a page with some of my picks for who I'd like 
to see play whom in the next movies. 
www.indigosky.net/movies/hpcast.html

Indigo




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 15:31:02 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:31:02 -0000
Subject: Assumption that Lupin was the spy (was Re: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?)
In-Reply-To: <004601c0c49f$35046ae0$0101a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <9b9qfm+l47e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16728

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> mulligag at t... wrote:
> <snip>
> > Oh, and could someone point me to the posts where it was 
discussed why
> Sirius thought
> > Remus was the spy?  I'd really like to see other people's ideas 
on that.
 
I've read the responses to the spy question and have no issues with 
any of them. Everyone, including Dumbledore, had a blind spot with 
regards to Peter, no doubt because he was the least skilled of the 
four Maurauders.

What interests me about the whole Remus/Sirius relationship at this 
point is how they will interact once they are face-to-face again.  I 
think that this whole mistrust issue is a giant stumbling block in a 
friendship, especially where the deaths of other mutual friends are 
involved.  I don't think the quick "Forgive me for thinking you were 
a spy" part of the scene in the Shrieking Shack covers it. 

 I think these guys have issues that must be dealt with.  If I were 
Remus, I'd want to know why I was suspected - something I did or 
didn't do?  Latent anti-werewolf prejudice?  I'd want to know what my 
friend had been thinking.  And, if I were Sirius, I'd want to know 
why my friend thought I betrayed my very best friend.  I would 
understand (I think) that the evidence against me looked convincing, 
but I would want to know why my friend didn't think there was some 
possible way the evidence was wrong.  I'd want to know why my friend 
thought I was capable of murder.

I'd like to see a discussion between these two covering all this.  It 
would give us more insights into their characters. And it would touch 
on a number of the books' themes: friendship, trust, making choices 
and dealing with the results of those choices.  

Marianne 




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 15:51:09 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:51:09 -0000
Subject: Sirius - Has anyone noted this?
In-Reply-To: <97sket+8au7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9rld+nvrp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16729

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 I'm really 
> curious (and nervous) about how things will unfold for Sirius.  
Right 
> now everyone is gunning for him:  the Ministry AND the Death Eaters. 
 

I am nervous too-- has anyone taken note that Rita Skeeter now knows 
that Sirius Black is an animagus??? And that he is close to Harry??? 

Do any of us really believe that she will keep this a secret???

This is what has protected him all along-- the fact that he could 
transform into a dog and that nobody except a few trusted friends knew 
about this ability. Now the dementors will know....

*shudder*

--Suzanne
(Thinking that the North End of Boston would be a splendid place for 
Sirius to hide out)





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Apr 14 15:52:57 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:52:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Two (unrelated) queries
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104141131020.14535-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16730

One about Winky, one about capitalization.

Query the first: Having now been looking at house-elf posts for a couple
of days, I've been looking at Winky's name more than I had at any time
since reading GoF.  I'd been trying to figure out why it seemed
familiar, and it struck me finally last night: The Winkies are the group
enslaved by the Wicked Witch of the West in *The Wizard of Oz*, who are
freed by Dorothy.  I don't have my copy of the book here, but I vaguely
remember that they're different from the way they were portrayed in the
movie -- are they more elflike?  They are happy to be liberated,
IIRC.  I think it is likely that Winky's name alludes to these
people; do others agree?  Are there other Oz allusions?

Query the second:  This one's spawned from the editing/grammar
discussions we had on OTCh.  What's with JKR's capitalization?  Why are
words like 'Quidditch' and 'Apparate' capitalized?  Is it only words
she's made up (that wouldn't include Muggle, then, which was a word,
albeit one she gave a new definition to)?  

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.






From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 15:56:59 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:56:59 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <3AD85AD7.EDA12AC9@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9b9s0b+gps8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16731

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> My view on that is this: Snape knew Malfoy and Harry hated each 
other. And he favours Malfoy, so why not put two arch enemies 
together? I think he wanted to scare Harry any way possible. Part of 
me suspects Snape of knowing exactly what was
> going to happen, and another part of me wonders if even Snape can 
plan that far ahead...just mho.




I disagree.  I think Snape specifically chose a snake to see what 
Harry would do. Don't you think that would be too much of a 
coincidence that Snape would chose a snake and then Harry would be 
able to speak to it?  The look on Snape's face was not one of 
surprise.  It was a calculating look.  He got the answer he was 
after.  Now not only does Snape know Harry can speak P. but so does 
the whole school.  There was a reason why Snape did this.

As far as Snape planning ahead, well.....he was a spy.  I don't think 
he has any trouble 'planning ahead'. If he can't plan ahead then he 
is in difinite trouble now. 





From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 16:07:46 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:07:46 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
Message-ID: <9b9ski+6qum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16732

It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did Voldemort 
need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? Why couldn't Moody turn 
a door knob or one of Harry's books into a port key? Surely in the 
course of a year he could get Harry to touch something. Rowling 
should have had Voldemort say something like this to his death eaters 
in the graveyard. 

"There is a powerful spell preventing port keys from working at 
Hogwarts but during the Tri Wizard Tournament people would be 
arriving from all over the world so I knew the spell would have to be 
temporarily removed, if not in the castle itself at least on the 
grounds. It also amused me to have Harry Potter whisked away to his 
doom at the very instant he thinks he's going to attain his greatest 
triumph. And I did it right under Dumbledore's nose with the entire 
world watching, people can now see with their own eyes which one of 
us is more powerful."

Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch 
the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled 
surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal.





From swirlyspike at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:07:56 2001
From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:07:56 -0000
Subject: I'm a newbie...*assorted groans and catcalls*
Message-ID: <9b9sks+v95o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16733

Hi there!

Okay, I'm new to this group and I'm relatively new to being a huge HP 
fan. It all started when I reread the books last week, and something 
in my brain suddenly flipped and....I became obsessed. Don't ask me 
what happened, it just did. Since then I've written a fanfic, been 
searching for sites and forums all over the place, and it looks like 
I've found one!

So, *un*fortunately for you all, I've come to join you.

If you'd like to know some of my HP stats, here they are....

Favorite characters: Sirius, Lupin, Snape and Draco.

Favorite book: Well, all of them...but I loved Prisoner of Azkaban.

Favorite quote: 'Mr Moony presents his compliments to Professor 
Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other 
people's business.' and all the other Marauder's Map comments.

House I'd be in: I'd like to say Gryffindor, but probably Ravenclaw 
or Slytherin...not because I'm evil, but because I'm a very ambitious 
person...with a fair amount of cunning.

And that's really all I have to say for now...so I'm sure I'll talk 
to you all later!

Swirly Head
  




From LynnP333 at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 16:08:20 2001
From: LynnP333 at aol.com (LynnP333 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:08:20 EDT
Subject: Wizard existence to Muggle government?
Message-ID: <9a.12d70c5a.2809cff4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16734

***Cristin observed:
***
Fudge has been criticized by come members of the International Federation of 
Warlocks for 

informing the Muggle Prime Minister of the crisis.

<snip>
Now, since Fudge simply reported the incident directly to the PM, we must 
assume that the 

Muggle government is, if nothing else, aware of the existence of the 
wizarding world - 

<snip>
We would, I suppose, have to then extrapolate that then most, if not all, of 
the important 

world governments and organizations would be aware of the wizarding world.


How then, do you suppose each countries respective Ministry keeps the gov'ts 
and 

organizations quiet?  It can't just be the leader of each country.  Past 
leaders, going back 

quite far, would have to have known.  As well as advisors, etc.  And these 
individuals would 

not have family in the Wizarding World, and so little incentive to keep them 
quiet.  wizards 

would have to be going around doing memory charms constantly, IMO.


Any ideas on how the relations would work?

****

Interesting can of worms you opened Cristin!
I can imagine a combination of memory charms and working with special 
government divisions to keep things quiet.  I also don't think any individual 
in the various governments would bother to speak up about the wizarding world 
 and be seen as of a some kind of nut case and possibly risk their career.  

Muggle leaders and the other government officials dealing with the wizards 
IMO, would always be aware of the power wizards actually hold over them.  
This in itself makes me believe Muggles and wizards can only come to an 
uneasy coexistence.  As much as the majority of wizards may feel benign 
toward Muggles, the Muggles would always know that the wizards hold an 
unbelievable power over them if they chose to use it.  I can actually see a 
lot more hostility from the Muggle side toward wizards, than from the wizard 
side toward Muggles, if the two worlds came together.  Perhaps the leaders of 
the muggle world and wizard world realized this and thought it best to keep 
the two apart for both their sakes?  I could see some tempation of some 
Muggle leaders to exploit the wizards, and maybe they've even tried in the 
past, but I don't think they'd have had much success. <g!>  
It would be interesting to read a book called 'A History of Muggle and Wizard 
Relations' in the Hogwarts library. :-)

Lynn



From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:06:04 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:06:04 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How wealthy is Harry Potter? 
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com> <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net> <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <002f01c0c4fc$d0429100$3207173f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 16735

I don't know about the very large fortune part, because when Harry saw
the firebolt for the first time, he wanted it, but then reconsidered.
He had to make the money last through another five years of schooling.
This makes me think, that his fortune might be enough to get him
through school and maybe a year or two afterwards if he's careful, but
definitely not enough to grant him unlimited spending.

Rena


> Demelza quoted:
>
> "No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy
about the
> fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his parents,
had
> much more money than he did."
>
> Penny commented:
>
> <<<[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as
a
> "small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it
might be a
> large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe
it here
> as a "small" fortune]>>>
>
> Interesting.  Perhaps this is a problem with UK to US translation:
In
> British English, "a small fortune" can, and usually does, mean a
very large
> fortune, not, as might be assumed, a modest fortune.   Admittedly,
it's a
> rather confusing use of the word "small," but it is an emphatic use,
and I
> think JKR intended that phrase to mean that Harry was left a massive
amount
> of money.
>
> **
> Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary: -'small fortune'- [colloq] - great
wealth; a
> huge sum of money.
> **
>
> Neil
> ________________________________________
>
> Flying Ford Anglia
>
> "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
>
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:15:57 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm a newbie...*assorted groans and catcalls*
In-Reply-To: <9b9sks+v95o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010414161557.260.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16736


--- Swirly Head <swirlyspike at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi there!
> 
Hi yourself! Interesting handle... But don't worry, we
don't put newbies' heads in the toilet, like they do
at Stonewall High.
Anne

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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:23:00 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:23:00 -0000
Subject: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F72GNsokLQ8aZR00004c4f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b9th4+u37s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16737

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Evil? No.  Mean? Yes!  I imagine D's reasons were
> 2)  I think JKR said something to the effect that D believes there 
are many 
> ways to learn, 
> 3) I'm sure there *are* reasons we don't know about yet.  "Things 
are not 
> what they seem" *is* a major theme,


I imagine it is safer for Snape at Hogwarts!  I know JKR mentioned 
that Snape abuses his power.  I just don't think Dumbledore hired 
Snape because the kids needed to learn how to deal with such a 
person. Dumbledore just accepts that part of Snape and lets the kids 
learn how to deal with such an abusive person.  All I am saying is 
that not only was Dumbledore offering Snape another chance but that 
Dumbledore needs Snape also.  "Keep your eye on Snape.  There is more 
to him than meets the eye."  


  
 I am prepared to give him credit when he 
> does something to deserve it, but so far, he hasn't.  I know he 
saved 
> Harry's life in the bucking broomstick episode, but that was just 
his duty.


Snape was actually bound to James.  Not Harry.  He didn't have to 
protect Harry but he did.  Yes, he was probably thinking that if he 
saved the Potter boy then he and James would be even.  There are 
other instances where it could be perceived that Snape was looking 
after Harry.  For instance, when Snape came to give Lupin the potion, 
Snape didn't seem to feel comfortable with Harry being in the room.  
Instead of looking at this scene from Harry's point of view look at 
it from Snape's.  Not to mention the Shrieking Shack.  Or when Harry 
went off to Hogsmeade when he wasn't suppose to.  Whether Snape wants 
to protect Harry or not he does. As you said, he might be mean but he 
isn't evil.


 The *truly* evil characters are never 
> treated in a humourous way, and Snape's behaviour is often so 
outrageous 
> it's funny.  Making Neville test his potion on his beloved Trevor 
is both a 
> horrible thing to do and a very funny scene.


Many of the scenes with Snape are funny.  Poor Neville.  *The 
Gryffindors watched fearfully.  The Slytherins looked excited* 


> I suppose what prompted my post in the first place is that I see 
Snape 
> getting cut a lot of slack on the strength of something we don't 
know about, 
> while not getting much stick for the things we do know about.


I have my own theories about Snape but I try not to get into any deep 
psychological analysis about Snape or any of the other characters.  I 
will go so far as to say he seems very bitter and I would be willing 
to bet life has not been kind.  Other than that I will just wait to 
see what has happened/happens to him from JKR.  There is just so much 
we don't know about yet.

Snape isn't the only character I love or wish to talk about.  It just 
seems I only respond to Snape threads!

Koinonia    
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
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From swirlyspike at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:26:38 2001
From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:26:38 -0000
Subject: I'm a newbie...*assorted groans and catcalls*
In-Reply-To: <20010414161557.260.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9b9tnu+jreu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16738

LOL...glad I don't go there.

Well, there's a reason for the two handles.

1) Swirly Head - I have curly hair, and like to think of myself as a 
bit loopy...

2) Swirlyspike - I already used Swirly Head on yahoo, but forgot the 
password, so used Swirlyspike because I also love Buffy the Vampire 
Slayer, in particular....Spike.

Thanks for the welcome!

Swirly




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 16:30:08 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:30:08 -0000
Subject: Assumption that Lupin was the spy (was Re: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?)
In-Reply-To: <9b9qfm+l47e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9tug+10dem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16739

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

Marianne wrote:

>  I think these guys have issues that must be dealt with.  If I were 
> Remus, I'd want to know why I was suspected - something I did or 
> didn't do?  Latent anti-werewolf prejudice?  I'd want to know what 
> my friend had been thinking.  
> 



I think, as I posted before, Remus was suspect because he is a 
werewolf.  The impressions I've gotten from the books is that Voldy 
had some kind of power over most dark creatures. Maybe they just 
weren't sure if Remus was/wasn't under Voldy's control. I don't 
believe that either Sirius or James ever thought that Remus was a 
willing spy, but they did feel he couldn't be trusted because Remus 
is a dark creature and they just didn't know. Better safe than sorry 
policy.

Also Remus is very intelligent and I'm sure he heard the stories 
about Voldy's control over other dark creatures. He knows he's 
considered one as well and therfore suspect to being considered a 
collabirator. IMO he understood this sad fact and really doesn't hold 
a grudge against Sirius for thinking he was the spy.


Marianne wrote: <snip>

> And, if I were Sirius, I'd want to know why my friend thought I 
> betrayed my very best friend.  I would understand (I think) that 
> the evidence against me looked convincing, but I would want to know 
> why my friend didn't think there was some possible way the evidence 
> was wrong. I'd want to know why my friend thought I was capable of  
> murder.


As for Remus thinking Sirius was the spy? Well out of three of them 
Sirius was the closest to James, he probably knew more information 
about their movements than Peter did. That coupled with the fact that 
he was thought to be the Secret-Keeper made him a logical choice as 
the spy. Sirius also may have exhibited behaviors during that time 
that made Remus think he was working for Voldy, like unexplained 
disappearences, etc.

Then when Peter "died" at Sirius' hand what was Remus supposed to 
think. He wasn't there, that we know of, to even think that Sirius 
didn't kill Peter he just knew what was reported. Sirius didn't help 
his cause either by laughing. And without a trial know one got 
Sirius' side of the story until 12 years later.

 Cheers,
  Kristin








From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 16:45:58 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:45:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9b9igb+s7o7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010414164558.9270.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16740

> What I'd like to know is why most house elves seem to enjoy what 
> they do.  Why do they take such pride in being owned?  

Does anyone remember the story of the "Shoemaker's Elves"?  The
shoemaker was down to his last bit of leather, laid it out on his
bench before going to bed and found it made into shoes in the
morning. He and his wife discovered the elves and thanked them by
making them perfect little clothes to wear because they were naked. 
The elves were happy and left but the shoemaker had good luck the
rest of his life.

This is the analogy that came to me when I first encountered Dobby in
the second book.  Elves like to work and help humans.  Some humans
abuse the system and they are shown in the books to be unsympathetic
for doing so.  

I don't think Hermione's SPEW campaign is as funny as JKR meant it to
be but then JKR is not American and might not appreciate the
sensitivity of the whole slavery issue.  


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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 16:45:05 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:45:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How wealthy is Harry Potter? 
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com> <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net> <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j> <002f01c0c4fc$d0429100$3207173f@rena>
Message-ID: <00d901c0c502$5781ba60$1a3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16741

Rena said:

<<I don't know about the very large fortune part, because when Harry saw the
firebolt for the first time, he wanted it, but then reconsidered. He had to
make the money last through another five years of schooling. This makes me
think, that his fortune might be enough to get him through school and maybe
a year or two afterwards if he's careful, but definitely not enough to grant
him unlimited spending.>>

That's a very good point, Rena, and if he did have a vast fortune, he might
have considered buying, or been advised to buy, himself a house and get away
from the Dursleys for good (or perhaps become a permanent tenant  at The
Leaky Cauldron?).  It wouldn't make sense for someone so independently
wealthy to be living in a poky bedroom at his Aunt and Uncle's house, would
it?

I think this ties in with the POV discussion we were having: i.e., to what
extent does Harry realise the extent of his wealth and to what extent is
this concept of "a small fortune" a third person perspective?  Is it
possible that he is more wealthy than he realises?

With regard to the school fees, I suppose we can assume they are not
exorbitant, since the Weasleys have four or five of their children at the
school at any one time and will have put all seven of them through the
school by the time Ginny leaves.  I guess we could conclude that the
Weasleys are so poor *because* they've had to put their children through
Hogwarts; if not, where on earth do they find the money to do it?  How,
indeed, do any of the parents of Hogwarts' students find the money, and what
happens to the children of those who can't afford it?

When Harry handed over his Triwizard winnings to the twins at the end of
GoF, he obviously wanted them to have the money and it did seem to be in the
spirit of generosity, but how much did he realise the value of this gesture?
Did the money represent, say, a year's schooling to him, or a molehill in
his mountain of Galleons?

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 17:04:54 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:04:54 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9b9guf+44lv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b9vvm+j7mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16742

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > JKR confirmed at the Edinburgh Book Festival that Mrs. Figg IS a 
> > squib.  So, I wouldn't think she'd be a viable choice for DADA 
prof.  
> > Also, JKR only confirmed that there would be a female DADA prof, 
she 
> > didn't say when.  (I know this was already stated, I'm just 
> > agreeing.)  That info came from the AOL online chat on October 
> > 19, '00.  
> >  though the other rumors I heard were based in 
> > fact--the evil Weasley cousin Icicle who may still happen, .
> > 
> > Kelley
> 
> How can Mrs. Figg  be a squib if she is also Arabella Figg?  How is 
it 
> possible that a squib would be part of the "old crowd"?.  I don't 
get 
> it.
> 
> JKR also said on an online chat that there is no such character as 
> Icicle and seemed annoyed at the rumors.
> 

I was in an online chat at Scholastic where JKR confirmed that the 
Mrs. Figg of PS/SS was Arabella Figg.  This was in the fall of last 
year, right around the time that JKR had the interview on the Today 
Show.  She might be a Squib.  Does anyone else remember that there
was also some talk--I'm not sure about this-- that there would be a 
character in the books who got magic later in Life?  Could this have 
been our Mrs. Figg?

Haggridd




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 17:29:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:29:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot holes filled?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F65NY1SWoBDyse00007886@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16743

Very neat solution!  I never really liked the Triwizard Tournament that much 
- in itself I mean.  Perhaps the excitement for the audience of the third 
task consisted of trying to make sense of odd thumps, snarls and cries of 
"Stupefy!":)  Not much one can do about the second task, I agree.  Perhaps 
the giant squid, which certainly must have been otherwise occupied, put on a 
juggling display while they were waiting.

On a more serious note, can anyone explain why the portkey works both ways?  
The one they used to get to the Quidditch World Cup didn't seem to, as the 
wizard who tossed it on to the pile of used portkeys was not hurled to 
various parts of the country.


>From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot holes filled?
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:07:46 -0000
>
>It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did Voldemort
>need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? Why couldn't Moody turn
>a door knob or one of Harry's books into a port key? Surely in the
>course of a year he could get Harry to touch something. Rowling
>should have had Voldemort say something like this to his death eaters
>in the graveyard.
>
>"There is a powerful spell preventing port keys from working at
>Hogwarts but during the Tri Wizard Tournament people would be
>arriving from all over the world so I knew the spell would have to be
>temporarily removed, if not in the castle itself at least on the
>grounds. It also amused me to have Harry Potter whisked away to his
>doom at the very instant he thinks he's going to attain his greatest
>triumph. And I did it right under Dumbledore's nose with the entire
>world watching, people can now see with their own eyes which one of
>us is more powerful."
>
>Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch
>the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled
>surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 17:41:14 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:41:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An Unexpected DADA
In-Reply-To: <9b8cvg+4l23@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010414174114.19014.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16744


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I just had a thought...  Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give 
> Snape the job of professor of DADA.  Maybe the rumors of Snape 
> wanting the position are true after all.  Besides, I'm willing to bet
> a few galleons that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than most 
> adults do.  I'd put his knowledge up there with Moody.  Who better to
> teach than someone who really practiced the Dark Arts?  It may not 
> happen in OoP, but perhaps in book 6 or 7...

Personally, I've always thought the reason why Dumbledore hasn't
allowed Snape to fill the position of DADA is because Snape is so
knowledgable as the Potions master. I won't get into the debate on
whether or not he's an effective teacher, but you have to admit that he
has vast knowledge in the Potions arena. Perhaps there aren't many
witches/wizards out there that are as skilled in Potions. Maybe its
easier to find a DADA teacher than it is to find a Potions one?

Eh, well, it's all speculations anyways. But I have an inner feeling
that we won't see Snape as DADA. Just my opinion.

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 17:58:06 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:58:06 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F35IviAiqlJFjW00006f1f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16745

koinonia wrote:
I wrote:
>  I am prepared to give him credit when he
> > does something to deserve it, but so far, he hasn't.  I know he
>saved
> > Harry's life in the bucking broomstick episode, but that was just
>his duty.
>
>
>Snape was actually bound to James.  Not Harry.  He didn't have to
>protect Harry but he did.  Yes, he was probably thinking that if he
>saved the Potter boy then he and James would be even.  There are
>other instances where it could be perceived that Snape was looking
>after Harry.  For instance, when Snape came to give Lupin the potion,
>Snape didn't seem to feel comfortable with Harry being in the room.
>Instead of looking at this scene from Harry's point of view look at
>it from Snape's.  Not to mention the Shrieking Shack.  Or when Harry
>went off to Hogsmeade when he wasn't suppose to.  Whether Snape wants
>to protect Harry or not he does. As you said, he might be mean but he
>isn't evil.

Lots of interesting points here, and in the whole posting, and nothing I 
disagree with.  When I said it was his duty to save Harry's life if he 
could, I was simply thinking that it was his duty as a responsible adult and 
Hogwarts teacher to any Hogwarts pupil in danger.  I also think he does 
actually want to protect Harry, and that the thought, or presence of Harry 
causes him pain, which makes him nasty to Harry.  Not that that's any 
excuse.:)

There is certainly something about Snape that gets people involved in 
discussion!:)  As I mentioned before, some of my postings are getting 
delayed, and this was one of them - I'm not trying to turn this into "Snape 
for Grownups" - honest!*bg*
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat Apr 14 18:31:51 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:31:51 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <9b9s0b+gps8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ba52n+78fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16746

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> I disagree.  I think Snape specifically chose a snake to see what 
> Harry would do. Don't you think that would be too much of a 
> coincidence that Snape would chose a snake and then Harry would be 
> able to speak to it?  The look on Snape's face was not one of 
> surprise.  It was a calculating look.  He got the answer he was 
> after.  Now not only does Snape know Harry can speak P. but so does 
> the whole school.  There was a reason why Snape did this.

Snape is a highly intelligent wizard who must have spent many hours 
pondering the whats and whys of the events of the night of the Potter 
massacre.  Dumbledore had construed that Voldemort had tranferred some 
of his powers to Harry, and there's no reason why Snape shoud not have 
as well.  He therefore COULD quite credibly have planned this test for 
Harry. 
I equally think the coincidence theory could be right on evidence 
given.  His reaction might have been much the same if it had just been 
a coincidence ie: no overt displays of surprise, but thinking through 
the possibilities non the less - In fact if it was planned mightn't he 
have looked less thoughtful/calculating as he'd have already thought 
through the implications? I think the choice of a snake isn't so 
much of a surprise for a Slytherin - I've wondered how he knew that 
Draco knew that particular spell - Is it one that all Slytherins 
practise regularly in their common room in the evenings?

Florence

  




From swirlyspike at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 18:32:06 2001
From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:32:06 -0000
Subject: An Unexpected DADA (Why Dumbledore doesn't let Snape teach DADA)
In-Reply-To: <20010414174114.19014.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ba536+lor7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16747


> Personally, I've always thought the reason why Dumbledore hasn't
> allowed Snape to fill the position of DADA is because Snape is so
> knowledgable as the Potions master. 

I agree with this. I also think it's partly due to the fact that 
Snape used to be a Death Eater. No matter how much Dumbledore trusts 
him, I think that perhaps some of the other professors/people at the 
Ministry wouldn't be happy with a former DE teaching young, 
impressionable wizards and witches about the Dark Arts.

Swirly Head






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Apr 14 19:13:18 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 14 Apr 2001 19:13:18 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <987275598.8154.83969.q2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16748


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /New York Trip/John Sinead Jim with lady.JPG 
  Uploaded by : jferer at yahoo.com 
  Description : John, Sinead and Jim with the Liberty Lady 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/New%20York%20Trip/John%20Sinead%20Jim%20with%20lady.JPG 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

jferer at yahoo.com
 







From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 19:50:47 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:50:47 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <20010414164558.9270.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ba9mn+8lrf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16749

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > What I'd like to know is why most house elves seem to enjoy what 
> > they do.  Why do they take such pride in being owned?  
> 
> Does anyone remember the story of the "Shoemaker's Elves"?  The
> shoemaker was down to his last bit of leather, laid it out on his
> bench before going to bed and found it made into shoes in the
> morning. He and his wife discovered the elves and thanked them by
> making them perfect little clothes to wear because they were naked. 
> The elves were happy and left but the shoemaker had good luck the
> rest of his life.
> 
> This is the analogy that came to me when I first encountered Dobby 
in
> the second book.  Elves like to work and help humans.  Some humans
> abuse the system and they are shown in the books to be unsympathetic
> for doing so.  
> 
> I don't think Hermione's SPEW campaign is as funny as JKR meant it 
to
> be but then JKR is not American and might not appreciate the
> sensitivity of the whole slavery issue.  
> 
Thanks for reminding me of that story - I'd forgotten, but now it 
fits.
The reason I find the SPEW storyline amusing, isn't anything to do 
with slavery (and BTW, slavery is regarded very sensitively in the UK 
as well, after all, most slaves came through Liverpool/Bristol on 
their way to the Americas.  I myself, when on holiday in the British 
Virgin Islands recently, discovered that there are a huge number of 
people in the Carribean with my maiden name (Phipps), because they 
were owned by someone called Phipps generations back.  That made me 
feel great, as you can imagine).

No, it is the whole thing of teenagers, full of idealism etc, who 
become very obsessed with a particular issue, as Hermione has done 
with the house elves, whether they invite it or not.  The experience 
which relates most closely to mine is when I was at secondary 
school.  My father taught rural science and had a working farm on the 
premises.  His prize pig (called Charlotte, after Charlotte's Web) 
was very old, having borne numerous litters, and it was time for her 
to go.  It eventually came out that she was to be taken to the 
butcher's shop and turned into sausages.  This generated a huge 
outcry in the school, with a "Save the pig" campaign running for the 
whole of one term, and with a huge number of people turning 
vegetarian in the process.  There was nothing they could really do, 
and eventually all the fuss died down, and they accepted what was 
going to happen - they lived in a rural community after all, but at 
the time it seemed the most important thing in the world to them.

What I'm trying to say (albeit in a very long-winded way) is that JKR 
is probably gently poking fun at the intensity of teenage obsessions -
how black and white/ life and death, issues can seem. 

Catherine 




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Apr 14 20:12:08 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:12:08 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9b9vvm+j7mn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9baauo+l755@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16750

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > JKR confirmed at the Edinburgh Book Festival that Mrs. Figg IS 
a 
> > > squib.  
> > 
> > How can Mrs. Figg  be a squib if she is also Arabella Figg?  How 
is 
> it 
> > possible that a squib would be part of the "old crowd"?.  I don't 
> get 
> > it.
> > 
> I was in an online chat at Scholastic where JKR confirmed that the 
> Mrs. Figg of PS/SS was Arabella Figg.  This was in the fall of last 
> year, right around the time that JKR had the interview on the Today 
> Show.  She might be a Squib.  Does anyone else remember that there
> was also some talk--I'm not sure about this-- that there would be a 
> character in the books who got magic later in Life?  Could this 
have 
> been our Mrs. Figg?
> 

Actually, JKR did NOT confirm that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are 
one and the same, IMHO.  The transcript of the Scholastic chat from 
last Oct. 16 goes like this:


Q: Is the Mrs. Figg with all the cats in the Dursleys' neighborhood 
the same Arabella Figg that Dumbledore mentioned at the end of book 4?

JK: Well spotted!

That could be interpreted as a confirmation, I suppose, but it sounds 
to me more like JKR is just congratulating the questioner on his/her 
alertness, while not really answering the question.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Apr 14 20:19:14 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:19:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs
Message-ID: <id.14042001161914.00000@FPE>

No: HPFGUIDX 16751

Haggridd asked: <<Does anyone else remember that there was also some talk--I'm not sure about this-- that there would be a  character in the books who got magic later in Life?  Could this have  been our Mrs. Figg?>>

I have absolutely no proof to back this up, but I have a rather strong hunch (and I get a twinkle now and then, so I've learned to trust my hunches) that the character who will end up as a wizard/witch is Dudley.  Oh, the horror!  It will be a good life lesson for the Dursleys and somewhat of a comeuppance at the same time.  They will end up needing and appreciating Harry.

Jeralyn, the voicelady



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat Apr 14 20:33:05 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:33:05 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9baauo+l755@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bac61+52ce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16752

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:

> 
> Actually, JKR did NOT confirm that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are 
> one and the same, IMHO.  The transcript of the Scholastic chat from 
> last Oct. 16 goes like this:
> 

She did confirm it in unambiquous terms in either the Blue Peter 
interview or the red nose day chat (script still not on web site) 
though.

Florence




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 20:50:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:50:43 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9bac61+52ce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bad73+eq1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16753

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Actually, JKR did NOT confirm that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are 
> > one and the same, IMHO.  The transcript of the Scholastic chat 
from 
> > last Oct. 16 goes like this:
> > 
> 
> She did confirm it in unambiquous terms in either the Blue Peter 
> interview or the red nose day chat (script still not on web site) 
> though.
> 
> Florence

If that is now proved to everyone's satisfaction, then can anyone out 
there tie in the "getting Magic in later life" rumor to this issue?

Haggridd




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat Apr 14 21:00:25 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:00:25 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks  as  Animagus
In-Reply-To: <20010414005209.1569.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9badp9+q1e2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16754

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> Also if Crookshanks were an animagus, he would have
> shown up on the Marauder's Map under his real name.
> Lupin would have seen this, as he was looking at the
> map and saw Pettigrew on it. Crookshanks was in this
> scene at around the same time, so Lupin would have
> seen another name show up.
> 
> Anne

Yep, If we're having any more unregistered animagi, Mrs Norris is a 
better bet, because aside from having a human sounding name she DID 
appear on the marauders map.  However I think she's a part kneazle too 
and these kneazle types just seem too clever to be animals (part of 
their magic).

"Elle sillonnait les couloirs toute searle et des qu'elle voyait 
quelqu'un commettre la moindre faute, ne serait-ce que poser un orteil 
au-dela d'une ligne interdite, elle filat prevenir son maitre qui 
accourait aussitot en soufflant comme un boeuf." (English version on 
loan - sorry, It's just indicating that Mrs Norris seems equal to 
Crookshanks in cleverness, so it's probably just a cat/kneazle thing)

Florence




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat Apr 14 21:06:05 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:06:05 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9bad73+eq1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bae3t+g85j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16755

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> If that is now proved to everyone's satisfaction, then can anyone 
out 
> there tie in the "getting Magic in later life" rumor to this issue?
> 
> Haggridd

I've not heard the two connected before, but for what it's worth my 
guess as to who it will be is as follows (and in this order):

Mrs Figg
Mr Filch
Dudley
Petunia
Mr or Mrs Granger

As most people here don't seem to buy in to the Mrs Figg as a squib 
argument, I'm not sure you'll get much further with connecting these 
two.

Florence




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 21:15:36 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:15:36 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors)
In-Reply-To: <9bae3t+g85j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9baelo+g6gd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16756

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
> > If that is now proved to everyone's satisfaction, then can anyone 
> out 
> > there tie in the "getting Magic in later life" rumor to this 
issue?
> > 
> > Haggridd
> 
> I've not heard the two connected before, but for what it's worth my 
> guess as to who it will be is as follows (and in this order):
> 
> Mrs Figg
> Mr Filch
> Dudley
> Petunia
> Mr or Mrs Granger
> 
> As most people here don't seem to buy in to the Mrs Figg as a squib 
> argument, I'm not sure you'll get much further with connecting 
these 
> two.
> 
> Florence

How would Mrs figg be one of "the old crowd" if she wasn't at 
Hogwarts?

My order goes

Dudley
Petunia
Filch
Mr or mrs Granger
Mrs Figg





From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 21:20:52 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:20:52 -0000
Subject: Evans
Message-ID: <9baevk+i0d4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16757

So, I was just wondering (and feeling too lazy to find out the good 
old fashioned book way) if the name Evans has been mentioned in an of 
the HP books before, anyone out there know of anything?

claire 8)  

HaPPy eaSTeR!!


I think that "R" should be a vowel




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 21:27:43 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:27:43 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F65NY1SWoBDyse00007886@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bafcf+4pbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16758

Morag wrote:
> >Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch
> >the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled
> >surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal.

Perhaps there were special screens for the crowd to watch the tasks 
on? Shame JK didn't say, GRRRRR that makes me soooooo mad! (Can you 
tell that it's the time of the month?) Maybe they could see over the 
hedges? It was on the Quidditch pitch...



claire




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 14 21:28:07 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:28:07 +0100
Subject: Mrs. Figg - witch, squib, portal guardian, kneazle keeper, none of the above?
References: <9bad73+eq1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <019b01c0c529$e2cb9e20$a73770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16759

Mrs Figg 'sort of confirmed' as being the same as Arabella Figg of the old
crowd...

Haggridd then said:

>>> If that is now proved to everyone's satisfaction, then can anyone out
there tie in the "getting Magic in later life" rumor to this issue?

Hmmmm.  I don't think Mrs Figg is a likely candidate for discovering magic
later in life.  I think that could be Petunia.  JKR has said something along
the lines of some surprising change of storyline in relation to the Dursleys
and, IMO, Petunia is more likely to have a dormant magical ability than
Dudley, because Dudley is too young to be regarded as being late in life
within the framework of this book series.

When it comes to Mrs Figg, if she is a squib, as JKR apparently confirmed, I
see her as the guardian of a portal to the wizarding world, acting as a sort
of liaison officer with the Muggle world.  It must be difficult for squibs
to fit in in the wizarding world, so the ideal role for them would be in
some kind of limbo area between the two worlds.  Perhaps Mrs Figg's house is
a bit like the Leaky Cauldron and offers a route - an escape route - into
the wizarding world?  It would be a good place of protection for Harry if
the Dursleys had to leave him anywhere.  It's interesting that when they
couldn't leave him with Mrs Figg, they felt obliged to take him with them to
the zoo.  It's almost as if they were physically unable to leave him behind
if he couldn't stay with her...

I also love the idea, previously suggested, that all (maybe some?) of Mrs
Figgs cats are actually Kneazles.  Perhaps her job is to train Kneazles and
maybe that accounts for the cabbage smell in her house - it's Kneazle pee!!
I also think Mrs Norris sounds like a pure Kneazle, whereas Crookshanks
could be half and half... pure guessing, of course.  Surely the students
would have commented on Kneazles being like cats before now?

The fact that Mrs Figg is called Mrs indicates that there was a Mr Figg on
the scene at some point.  It would be interesting to know whether he was a
wizard or a Muggle.  It would also be interesting to know Mrs Figg's maiden
name.

This Figg woman is intriguing, no doubt about it...

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Apr 14 22:56:28 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:56:28 -0000
Subject: How wealthy is Harry Potter?
In-Reply-To: <00d901c0c502$5781ba60$1a3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bakis+dp0s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16760

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> I think this ties in with the POV discussion we were having:
> i.e., to what extent does Harry realise the extent of his wealth
> and to what extent is this concept of "a small fortune" a third
> person perspective?  Is it possible that he is more wealthy than
> he realises?
> 
[snip]
> 
> Neil

In trying to get a handle on this some months ago, I tried to assume 
the firebolt was the equivalent of the most expensive, commercially 
available sportscar.  That would indicate maybe somewhere around 
GBP200 000 (USD 300 000) in his vault, at an annual interest of at 
least 1.2%, if QTA is anything to go by.  

On the other hand:  did not JKR say some time ago - in the most 
recent online chat, I think - that James Potter inherited the money, 
and that it was enough money to live off without having a paid job?  
That would indicate a significantly larger sum.  normally with large 
sums of money, one would expect to see property with it, as well (and 
my gut-feeling is that the grand wizarding-families do have there 
homesteads, passed down for innumerable generations), but the will of 
the Potters may have had a clause stating that any property was to be 
sold, the proceeds going to the vault, where it would be in trust 
till Harry started school.  

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 14 22:57:24 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:57:24 -0000
Subject: Evans
In-Reply-To: <9baevk+i0d4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bakkk+n8o5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16761

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> So, I was just wondering (and feeling too lazy to find out the good 
> old fashioned book way) if the name Evans has been mentioned in an 
of 
> the HP books before, anyone out there know of anything?
> 
> claire 8)  
> 
> HaPPy eaSTeR!!
> 
> 
> I think that "R" should be a vowel

Evans as Lily Potter's maiden name was mentioned in one of JKR's 
interviews, as was James's position on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, 
that of Chaser.  I do not believe that it is in any of the first four 
books.

Haggridd




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 01:57:33 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:57:33 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA in OoP
Message-ID: <LAW2-F64aYQqaUbqAGk000057f4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16762

Agree.  I think Moody has been "done" for now, and when we see him again, it 
probably won't be as a teacher.  Not sure about Arabella as DADA teacher - 
Dumbledore seems to have some other role in mind for her when he talks about 
"alerting the old crowd".  What about the scary woman in the Pensieve in 
GoF:

"A woman with thick, shining dark hair, and heavily hooded eyes, who was 
sitting the chained chair as though it were a throne..."  Is this Mrs 
Lestrange?  I know she's in Azkaban, but V is powerful and the Dementors are 
unreliable...  I can't wait to see her again!


>From: meboriqua at aol.com
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., gerstin at p... wrote:
> > Hi folks-
> > Where (in canon) do we get the idea that there will be a new DADA
> > teacher in OoP?
> > So why assume the real Moody won't be the DADA teacher in OoP?
>
>Hi-
>
>I know that we can't necessarily take everything the fake Moody said
>to be true, but in "The Unforgiveable Curses" chapter, he tells Harry
>and the class that he has one year to teach them everything he knows.
>I imagine that Barty Jr. actually did get that information from the
>real Moody, as he got so many other facts from the real Moody.
>
>I think that's how we can assume there will be a new DADA professor
>(my knuts are on Arabella Figg taking the position).
>
>--Jenny from Rave
>

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 14 23:24:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:24:45 -0700
Subject: Redemption of Draco/Lucius - Evil Hermione - Primary School - Fleur -  House Elves - More
Message-ID: <3AD8DC3C.9BF1A883@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16763

Claire wrote:
> Also, do you think a "dark" character should die at the hands of
> Voldemort? How about Draco? Would his father turn away from
> the dark side (use the force luke! lol!) because of this? or does he
> love Voldemort more?

It seems there are more people who think that Lucius doesn't love Draco
at all than who think he does. Canon Draco seems to love his father, or
at least to admire him very much. (Please forgive a fanfic reference,
but in SoC, Heidi has Draco telling Hermione quite seriously: "He's as
close to perfect as anyone I know, and I know that I should aspire to
that.") So it would be more of an emotional conflict if V killed Lucius,
thus forcing *Draco* to choose sides.

Wicky Gheesha wrote:
> And no, I don't think that Lucius really loves Draco. Maybe he
> just planned to have him around the same time the Potters had
> their baby so that Draco could either defeat and kill him by
> betraying him as a friend, or try and get him to go to the dark
side...

I personally believe there was a prophecy or something that a boy born
around a certain day would have great powers, and therefore V ordered
his Death Eaters to go reproduce, with the intention of having that baby
born on the Dark Side, but co-incidentally the Potter boy was born at
the same time. We have Harry, Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle as main
characters, with Lucius and the senior Crabbe and Goyle in the circle in
the cemetery, and one 'Nott' in the Death Eater circle and another being
Sorted in Harry's year. There was no mention of a 'Lestrange' being
Sorted then -- perhaps Harry wasn't paying good attention during the L's
or perhaps the hypothetical child, who must have been in some kind of
foster home because both parents were in Azkaban, was going by the
foster parents' surname.

Steve van der Ark wrote:
> Someone brought up the question lately of what happened to
> Voldemort's closest friends at Hogwarts, the ones he used the
> V-name with while still in school. Considering that wizards live
> longer and might therefore have children later in life, I wonder if
> Mr. Malfoy might be one of them. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were
> very possibly at Hogwarts before Tom Riddle, fifty years ago, and
> they have younger children

The antagonism between Lucius and Arthur certainly **feels** like they
were in school together (like Harry and Draco, Sirius and Seveus) and I
don't believe that Lucius was in school with Severus and the Marauders
(despite so many fanfics that do), but I counted out the years and found
that:
             with the long wizard lifespans, Lucius could well have been
in school with Tom Riddle
             if both Lucius and his father reproduced at Muggle-ishly
young ages, Lucius's FATHER could have been in school with Tom Riddle,
who could thus have been Lucius's godfather
              or we could split the difference and have Lucius's older
brother be in school with Riddle.

Amanda wrote:
>  the scene in CoS when Ron and Harry are polyjuiced and
> talking to Draco in the Slytherin common room. This is the only
> "eavesdropped" Draco glimpse we've gotten (snip)
> And Draco is nasty. Just as nasty as he is when he *is* "on view."
> He wants to know who the Heir is, so he can *help* him,
> (snip) So how do you believers in Draco's ultimate redemption
> handle this scene?

Canon Draco is an evil little monster... but he wants to help the Heir
because he believes (has been raised to believe) that that is the heroic
thing to do. Think Stewarts and Orangemen and the King over the water.
At that point, he hasn't even seen death yet (as far as we know from
canon), only Petrification. He said he hopes Granger will be killed, but
that is just an expression of extreme dislike of Granger -- I have been
known to say that I wish this person or that person would die a slow and
painful death very soon, but I know I would be totally grossed out if I
had to WATCH. His extreme dislike of Granger is not because she is
Muggle-born (we didn't hear him spitting venom at Justin Finch-Fletchly)
but rather because she is the cause of painful discussions in which
Lucius condemns Draco for not having the best grades in his year ...
maybe also because she has thwarted some of his anti-Harry plots.

Okay, at the end of GoF, he's old enough to know better, and he's seen
Cedric's dead body, and still he mocks at Cedric's death. That is stupid
as well as tacky, and very difficult to wish away.... but he hasn't seen
VIOLENT death yet, mangled bodies, or torture... And maybe he had some
long-standing dislike of Cedric, despite Cedric coming from an old
wizarding family... maybe Cedric beat him in a House Quidditch match
once! Maybe actually seeing torture and slaughter would have an effect
on him (altho' one hell of a lot of Muggle human beings seem to deal
with it just fine).

I think what would turn Draco is if someone he cared about, someone he
loved, was killed or in danger of death or maybe even just hurt and
humiliated before his eyes by the Dark Side.

***

Ebony wrote:
> All right, why *would* Hermione go bad?  I'm not talking about
> going undercover... I'm talking genuinely becoming an evil character.
> One  must allow that if there is a possibility for Draco redemption,
> there is also a chance of Hermione vilification.
>       So what scenarios can *you* come up with in which she would do
this?

Easiest scenario is the road to hell which is paved with good intentions
... the young idealist sees that wizarding society is full of bigotry
and oppression (against House Elves, giants, werewolves, Muggles,
financially poor wizarding folk), with lots of favoritism of quite
unworthy people (e.g. Malfoys, Fudges, Bagman), and good people like
Sirius were put in Azkaban without trial while wicked people like Lucius
walked free, and the Ministry is being worse than useless at preparing
for the return of Voldemort. Her efforts to change people's minds by
presenting them with facts and logical arguments result only in them
telling her to shut up, and perhaps expelling her from grad school or
firing her from her job. She starts thinking that assassination of Fudge
or some other prominent pieces of deadwood at the Ministry would be a
public service ... bombing a publishing house that prints anti-Muggle
books and never mind the poor janitors who were at work there at the
time ... One reaches a point where one might see that one's actions have
not had the desired effect, might see that they were morally wrong, or
might just be too tired to keep on fighting, but one also has a record
such that one cannot avoid a life sentence in Azkaban no matter how
repentant one feels. At this point, the genes' old biological survival
instinct kicks in and some people choose to lead a life of crime,
joining up with their previous enemies, because the other options
(Azkaban or suicide) are so anti-survival.

***

Catherine wrote:
> Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to attend a
> Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very difficult
> to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their origins etc,
> and it would be very awkward if they were to develop Muggle
> friendships.

Catherine wrote:
> (I wonder if Draco went to a prep school?  He already seems
> firmly ensconced in his little threesome by the first journey to
> Hogwarts not to have known Crabbe and Goyle before).

I think the wizarding folk have a variety of forms of primary education
for their children. Some home-school, some send their children to small,
local, wizarding primary schools (which are not paid for nor regulated
by the MoM), and I believe that A FEW are sent to Muggle schools. They
must be supplied with magically forged records and carefully warned not
to talk about magic. and their parents must be prepared to use Memory
Charms, but it must be easier to control a few children than a load of
'em.

It is possible that Muggle friendships from Muggle primary schools turn
into mixed marriages, such as that which produced Seamus Finnegan.
Anyway, a witch who can get to know a Muggle man well enough to marry
him, without him knowing that she is a witch until after the wedding,
must know a lot more about how to behave among Muggles than the Weasleys
do! And having gone to Muggle school would be one way to learn how to
behave among Muggles.

I personally have the entirely baseless opinion that Draco was educated
by tutors at home (it seems to go with his family's wealth and
arrogance) and that his parents invited the senior Crabbe, Goyle, Nott,
and maybe Parkinson to send their children to share Draco's lessons
(accounting for how well they already know enough and how well they all
know that Draco is the boss).

Neil wrote:
> Rena said:
> > I don't know about the very large fortune part, because when
> > Harry saw the F irebolt for the first time, he wanted it, but then
> > reconsidered. He had to make the money last through another
> > five years of schooling. This makes me think, that his fortune
> > might be enough to get him through school and maybe a year
> > or two afterwards if he's careful, but definitely not enough to
> > grant  him unlimited spending.
> That's a very good point, Rena, and if he did have a vast
> fortune, he might  have considered buying, or been advised to
> buy, himself a house and get away  from the Dursleys for good
> (or perhaps become a permanent tenant  at The Leaky
> Cauldron?).  It wouldn't make sense for someone so independently
> wealthy to be living in a poky bedroom at his Aunt and Uncle's
> house, would it?

Rena, JKR said in an on-line chat that James had inherited enough money
that he and Lily didn't have to work for a living. Harry is supposed to
have inherited his parents' money. I personally find it easier to
believe that Harry underestimates how much money he has than that the
largest part of his parents' wealth was burned up in their house. In
that case, his entirely admirable responsible decision not to buy the
Firebolt was unnecessary. I note that *Sirius* had enough money in his
vault to buy the Firebolt; did he empty his whole vault to give Harry
one present? Or did he have a good bit socked away before he was sent to
Azkaban?

I also believe that when Harry was thinking of making his money last
through school, he was thinking of haircuts, books, clothes, candy in
Hogsmeade, not of tuition --  I believe for no particular reason that
tuition and room & board at Hogwarts are free. Paid for by MoM. That
way, there wouldn't be any problem of parents too poor to pay their
children's school fees, or Muggle parents *refusing* to pay for
wizarding school.

Neil, in my theory, Harry wouldn't have realised that he had enough
money to buy a house, or that it would be possible to buy a house while
under-age, and no one else would advise him to buy a house to get away
from the Dursleys, because Dumbledore said that Harry had to stay with
the Dursleys for his safety in order to be protected by 'ancient magic'.

***

FLEUR AS DADA TEACHER
I personally can't believe that a person can graduate from school one
year and be there teaching students only one year younger the very next
year. Oh, maybe Harry could be the DADA teacher by the time he
graduates, but that's because he's getting his on-the-job training
during school, not after finishing school -- a special case.

Glenn wrote:
> It would be kind of funny, though, to see how the Hogwarts
> boys did with a Veela as a teacher

Maybe they hear not one word of the class lectures because they are too
busy staring at Fleur -- or maybe they all study as hard as Hermione,
and hang on every word Fleur says, because they are so eager to make a
good impression on her.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> I do think she and Bill will have a thing, though - she sure was
> checking him out before the third task!

I apologise for repeating myself -- but I think it would be total hoot
if Fleur came to the Burrow (when all the family was there) in pursuit
of Bill, and Charlie and Percy and Fred and George and Ron was all
following her around with their tongues hanging out of their mouths, and
even Arthur was gazing at her with a slight smile on his face, but Bill
was not affected at all. When she finally catches him alone and either
grabs him into a kiss or demands to know why he's not interested in her,
he tells her he's exclusively gay.

***

Claire wrote:
> What do you all think that the Hogwarts house elves do in the summer
> holidays? A HUGE clean up of the castle? 6 weeks is a long time...

Big old castles like that need a lot of maintenance. Perhaps they spend
the summers fixing the roofs, repainting, and so on. Renewing and
replacing the spells. Especially the protective spells...

Maybe they remodel, and the reason Dumbledore only found the chamberpot
room once was that it had just been put there, and later was removed.

Jamieson wrote:
> I like to think that they have their own lives/families that they
visit.
> Dumbledore treats them really well, so I could see that happening.

I imagine that Hogwarts House Elves have their families with them all
year. House Elves have families, or at least mothers, as Winky wept
something about she served Master as her mother had service Master's
father.... I wonder if usually the fathers and mothers work for
different families, and the sons are sent to join their fathers at some
particular age?

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> Perhaps the Malfoys were the worst owners around, but Crouch
> treated poor Winky terribly as well.

Umm, could you give examples, please? I can't remember anything about
how Crouch Sr treated Winky before the World Cup except that it was she,
Winky, who talked him into letting Junior see the World Cup. Senior was
not guilty of forcing an acrophobic to save him a seat up on the Top
Box: she *volunteered* to do that so that invisible Junior could sit in
that seat. Senior broke her heart by firing her. He fired her when she
had just allowed Junior to escape, cast the Dark Mark, and go to help
Voldemort.

***

Celeste wrote:
> Heaven hath no fury like the hormones of a fifteen-year old.

What do hormones have to do with wanting your ideas to be heard?

***

Stephanie sdrk1 wrote:
> Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written
> _Hairy Snout, Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote
> in Werewolves section.)

I suppose JKR was setting up for Lupin to have written that book, but I
not only agree with whoever said that Lupin wouldn't have given it such
a stupid title, I also think that publishers and readers would be more
interested in a book that could also talk about adult experiences like
the job market. Therefore, JKR should have given it a later publication
date, not when Lupin was a sixth year student or even when he was a
seventh year student. (My calculation has Snape and the Marauders in
class of '76, so 1975 publication could be end of sxith year 74-75 or
beginning of seventh year 75-76.)

***

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> What's with JKR's capitalization?  Why are words like
> 'Quidditch' and 'Apparate' capitalized?  Is it only words
> she's made up (that wouldn't include Muggle, then, which
> was a word, albeit one she gave a new definition to)?

I think it's only words that she thinks she made up, therefore Muggles
is capitalized but wizard and witch are not.

***

Swirly Head wrote:
> Okay, I'm new to this group and I'm relatively new to being
> a huge HP fan. (snip) ....I became obsessed.

You should fit in here.

> Since then I've written a fanfic, been searching for sites and
> forums all over the place, and it looks like I've found one!

Do you already know about www.fanfiction.net ? They have, I don't know,
30,000 fics in their Harry Potter section, so get advice about which
ones to read ... I think there is a file in this egroup about Fanfic
Recommendations. I know there is an HP fanfic egroup:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/messages

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:08:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:08:51 -0000
Subject: Harry's money - Portkeys - 2nd/3rd tasks - Mme. Norris
Message-ID: <9baoqj+o235@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16764

Neil wrote:

>When Harry handed over his Triwizard winnings to the twins at the end 
of
>GoF, he obviously wanted them to have the money and it did seem to be 
in the
>spirit of generosity, but how much did he realise the value of this 
gesture?
>Did the money represent, say, a year's schooling to him, or a 
molehill in
>his mountain of Galleons?

Not to in any way detract from Harry's generosity, but I think he 
would have given it away even if he didn't have plenty of money.  To 
him, at this point, this bag of money represents horror and loss, and 
he doesn't want anything to do with it.  He has said three times that 
he doesn't want it:  to Molly, to the Diggorys (it's not just that he 
thinks it rightfully belongs to them, IMO, nor that he's trying to 
atone for Cedric's death), and now to Fred and George.  I think he 
means exactly what he says.  He also tells F & G "I don't need it," 
but that may be secondary--to convince them that they aren't 
impoverishing him by accepting it.  That was my impression.

I can recall reading stories as a kid in which someone threw away 
money because it was tainted, and having a very hard time 
understanding it.  Now, even though I know what it is to have to worry 
about where my rent is going to come from (which I didn't as a 
middle-class child), I can understand.

Morag wrote:

>On a more serious note, can anyone explain why the portkey works both 
ways?  
>The one they used to get to the Quidditch World Cup didn't seem to, 
as the 
>wizard who tossed it on to the pile of used portkeys was not hurled 
to 
>various parts of the country.

It seems plausible to me that there are at least two different kinds 
of portkeys.  Perhaps most portkeys are two-way, but the ones created 
for the QWC were specifically designed not to be because the 
organizers had to deal with so many of them.  Much easier to throw 
them all in a box as people arrive and create new ones when they need 
to go home.

In any case, the QWC portkeys are also set to work only at a certain 
time, so the wizard receiving them wouldn't have been whisked away in 
any case.

Thank you, Eggplant, for raising the "weren't the 2nd and 3rd tasks 
boring to watch?" question, and thanks, Morag, for suggesting the 
juggling squid.  I love it!  (BTW, I posed this question a few weeks 
ago and no one picked up on it, even though I'm an oldie [we age fast 
on this list--3 1/2 months onlist is old] and greatly revered <g>.  
Newbies, it isn't just you.)

The 2nd task doesn't seem so hard to explain; perhaps there's a kind 
of magical TV that allows everyone to see what each of the Champions 
is doing.  There's plenty of precedent for that kind of magic, e.g. 
the diary and the Pensieve.  But the 3rd task is really hard to 
explain, because (a) everyone =would= be able to see into the maze, 
even without Wizardvision, since they're way up in the Quidditch 
stands (which are very high up, not like football stands), unless some 
kind of block was put up to prevent it, and (b) if they did see what 
was going on, wouldn't they see all the illegal activity?:  Moody 
Stunning Fleur, Moody hitting Krum with the Imperius (that one might 
be hard to see), Krum hitting Cedric with the Cruciatus?

Florence supplied this French description of Mme. Norris & Filch from 
PS/SS 8:

>son maitre qui 
>accourait aussitot en soufflant comme un boeuf.

Oh, I'm in heaven!  More translation issues!

UK reads:  "...Filch, who'd appear, wheezing, two seconds later."

I'd translate the above as "...her master who would rush up right away 
wheezing like an ox."  This is hilarious!  

Uh-oh, next thing you know I'll be ordering the French versions.  My 
obsession rating would skyrocket to dangerous levels.  But it would be 
a good way to brush up on my long-neglected French, wouldn't it?  
(Someone please say "yes" and hand me an excuse.)

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------------------





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 00:15:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:15:16 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg - witch, squib, portal guardian, kneazle keeper, none of the above?
In-Reply-To: <019b01c0c529$e2cb9e20$a73770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bap6k+2gvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16765

  I don't think Mrs Figg is a likely candidate for discovering magic
> later in life.  I think that could be Petunia.  JKR has said 
something alongthe lines of some surprising change of storyline in 
relation to the Dursleysand, IMO, Petunia is more likely to have a 
dormant magical ability thanDudley, because Dudley is too young to be 
regarded as being late in lifewithin the framework of this book 
series.>

I'm inclined to agree with you here, Neil!  I also read (I think it 
was the AOL interview?) that Harry has not *yet* practiced magic on 
Dudley, with a *hint hint* on the part of JKR.  I feel that Harry will 
somehow use magic against Dudley as a revenge for all he's put up with 
from the Pig in a Wig.  If Dudley were able to do magic too, it 
wouldn't be one sided, as JKR hinted.

I also think Aunt Petunia is most likely to be able to do magic.  In 
fact, I think she may already be a witch, but had to hide it to 
protect Harry, or because she was ashamed to not be 'normal' anymore.  
She does already have magic in the family...
 
> When it comes to Mrs Figg, if she is a squib, as JKR apparently 
confirmed, I see her as the guardian of a portal to the wizarding 
world, acting as a sort of liaison officer with the Muggle world.  It 
must be difficult for squibs to fit in in the wizarding world, so the 
ideal role for them would be in some kind of limbo area between the 
two worlds.  Perhaps Mrs Figg's house is a bit like the Leaky Cauldron 
and offers a route - an escape route - into the wizarding world?  It 
would be a good place of protection for Harry if the Dursleys had to 
leave him anywhere.  It's interesting that when they couldn't leave 
him with Mrs Figg, they felt obliged to take him with them to
> the zoo.  It's almost as if they were physically unable to leave him 
behind if he couldn't stay with her...>

I like that theory!  That makes sense to me if Mrs. Figg really is a 
squib.  I'd still like to hear JKR say those words myself, as I see 
more possibilites of Mrs. Figg being a witch, especially if she is 
part of the old crowd.

BTW, Mundungus Fletcher was also mentioned as part of the old crowd.  
I'm very interested to meet the person who tried to get one over on 
the MOM after the World Cup.  I know he was mentioned earlier, but 
can't remember where.  I'll go look!

This is one hell of an old crowd, 




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:16:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:16:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F21KWiGtXsL1c0000076ef@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16766

Much as I would like to take the credit for this witty and prescient 
observation, it rightly belongs to eggplant.  I don't think they could see 
over the hedges, because if so they could give the champions clues.


>From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:27:43 -0000
>
>Morag wrote:
> > >Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch
> > >the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled
> > >surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal.
>
>Perhaps there were special screens for the crowd to watch the tasks
>on? Shame JK didn't say, GRRRRR that makes me soooooo mad! (Can you
>tell that it's the time of the month?) Maybe they could see over the
>hedges? It was on the Quidditch pitch...
>
>
>
>claire
>

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From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 00:18:35 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:18:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <9ba52n+78fg@eGroups.com>
References: <9b9s0b+gps8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414201835.009e344c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16767

At 06:31 PM 4/14/01 -0000, you wrote:

>Snape is a highly intelligent wizard who must have spent many hours 
>pondering the whats and whys of the events of the night of the Potter 
>massacre.  Dumbledore had construed that Voldemort had tranferred some 
>of his powers to Harry, and there's no reason why Snape shoud not have 
>as well.  He therefore COULD quite credibly have planned this test for 
>Harry. 
>I equally think the coincidence theory could be right on evidence 
>given.  His reaction might have been much the same if it had just been 
>a coincidence ie: no overt displays of surprise, but thinking through 
>the possibilities non the less - In fact if it was planned mightn't he 
>have looked less thoughtful/calculating as he'd have already thought 
>through the implications? 

Personally, I think that Snape just chose the snake because 1) as the
Slytherin house master, that might be the first creature that came to mind,
and 2) most people fall to pieces when they see snakes. I agree that he
would have looked less thoughtful if it was planned - I would imagine it to
be one of triumph or satisfaction.

>I think the choice of a snake isn't so 
>much of a surprise for a Slytherin - I've wondered how he knew that 
>Draco knew that particular spell - Is it one that all Slytherins 
>practise regularly in their common room in the evenings?

My assumption was that Snape called Draco aside to both suggest the spell
and instruct him on how to cast it.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:20:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:20:33 -0000
Subject: Lucius' age - Poll on New Wizard/Witch
Message-ID: <9bapgh+aifl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16768

Rita wrote:

>with the long wizard lifespans, Lucius could well have been in school 
>with Tom Riddle

Draco says he wasn't, though.  

"And father won't tell me =anything= about the last time the Chamber 
was opened, either.  Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was 
before his time, but he knows all about it, and he says that it was 
all kept quiet and it'll look suspicious if I know too much about it" 
(CoS 12).

Not that I trust either Draco or Lucius to tell the truth, but it is 
said in a casual way that doesn't sound likely to be a lie.  The 
Marauders were at school only 14 years earlier, so there's lots of 
room for Lucius to be before their time but after Riddle's.

A request:  I would love it if someone who understands how to create a 
poll set up one about who we think is going to 
develop/discover/whatever it is JKR said magical powers late in life. 
 It would be a hoot to see how well we predicted it.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
 Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
 been about being dead, but none of the other 
 ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 00:23:54 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:23:54 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9ba9mn+8lrf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bapmq+jkji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16769


> What I'm trying to say (albeit in a very long-winded way) is that 
JKR 
> is probably gently poking fun at the intensity of teenage obsessions 
-
> how black and white/ life and death, issues can seem. 
> 
> Catherine

That's interesting, Catherine, that people find the whole thing 
amusing.  I didn't see it that way at all, but that's why I love this 
site; getting a myriad of opinions and perspectives all the time.

Some people I've spoken to say that JKR is taking a big risk with her 
house elf story line.  I guess I saw it as another way JKR was trying 
to teach about something.  What I'm still trying to figure out, 
though, is why no one wants to listen to Hermione and SPEW.  I was 
completely on her side and was even a bit disappointed with *gasp* 
Harry for not backing her more.

I can't really poke fun at oppression, and as much as I like the 
theory about the shoemaker elves (thanks, Magda), I am still 
uncomfortable with where JKR is with Dobby, Winky and the others.  If 
I was a rich witch, I can't imagine (as me) thinking it was okay to 
have a house elf.

--jenny f




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 00:26:50 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:26:50 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg - witch, squib, portal guardian, kneazle keeper, none of the above?
In-Reply-To: <019b01c0c529$e2cb9e20$a73770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bapsa+er1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16770

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Mrs Figg 'sort of confirmed' as being the same as Arabella Figg of 
the old
> crowd...
> 
> Haggridd then said:
> 
> >>> If that is now proved to everyone's satisfaction, then can 
anyone out
> there tie in the "getting Magic in later life" rumor to this issue?
> 
> Hmmmm.  I don't think Mrs Figg is a likely candidate for
discovering 
magic
> later in life.  
> When it comes to Mrs Figg, if she is a squib, as JKR apparently 
confirmed, I
> see her as the guardian of a portal to the wizarding world, acting 
as a sort
> of liaison officer with the Muggle world.  It must be difficult for 
squibs
> to fit in in the wizarding world, so the ideal role for them would 
be in
> some kind of limbo area between the two worlds.  Perhaps Mrs Figg's 
house is
> a bit like the Leaky Cauldron and offers a route - an escape route
- 
into
> the wizarding world?  It would be a good place of protection for 
Harry if
> the Dursleys had to leave him anywhere.  It's interesting that when 
they
> couldn't leave him with Mrs Figg, they felt obliged to take him
with 
them to
> the zoo.  It's almost as if they were physically unable to leave
him 
behind
> if he couldn't stay with her...
> 
> I also love the idea, previously suggested, that all (maybe some?) 
of Mrs
> Figgs cats are actually Kneazles.  Perhaps her job is to train 
Kneazles and
> maybe that accounts for the cabbage smell in her house - it's 
Kneazle pee!!
> I also think Mrs Norris sounds like a pure Kneazle, whereas 
Crookshanks
> could be half and half... pure guessing, of course.  Surely the 
students
> would have commented on Kneazles being like cats before now?
> 
> The fact that Mrs Figg is called Mrs indicates that there was a Mr 
Figg on
> the scene at some point.  It would be interesting to know whether
he 
was a
> wizard or a Muggle.  It would also be interesting to know Mrs
Figg's 
maiden
> name.
> 
> This Figg woman is intriguing, no doubt about it...
> 
> Neil
> ________________________________________

I love the way that this reconciles both the various mentionings of 
Mrs. Figg in the book with JKR's comment about her being a squib.  
Purely on a personal note, I would find it satisfying if Petunia 
Dursely were to become magical; I would hate it if it turned out to
be Dudley.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:32:41 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:32:41 -0000
Subject: House Elves, namely Winky
In-Reply-To: <3AD8DC3C.9BF1A883@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9baq79+udd5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16771

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> > Perhaps the Malfoys were the worst owners around, but Crouch
> > treated poor Winky terribly as well.

Rita the Catlady wrote:
 
> Umm, could you give examples, please? I can't remember anything 
about
> how Crouch Sr treated Winky before the World Cup except that it was 
she,
> Winky, who talked him into letting Junior see the World Cup. Senior 
was
> not guilty of forcing an acrophobic to save him a seat up on the Top
> Box: she *volunteered* to do that so that invisible Junior could sit 
in
> that seat. Senior broke her heart by firing her. He fired her when 
she
> had just allowed Junior to escape, cast the Dark Mark, and go to 
help
> Voldemort.

You're right about the top box; it was her idea, and sitting 
elsewhere would've looked suspicious (Crouch in the bleachers?  come 
on) and would also have made it more likely that Crouch Jr. would 
be discovered--more crowded seats, people bumping past "empty" 
seats and noticing that one of them isn't empty.  Firing her is pretty 
terrible treatment, though, IMO.  She didn't "allow" him to do all 
those things; he overpowered her.  That isn't her fault; if anyone but 
Junior is to blame, it's Senior, whose Imperius hex wasn't strong 
enough to keep him under control.  One reason Crouch fires her 
is that he has to go along with the pretense that she cast the Dark 
Mark, and also get her out of the way before Amos asks her 
any more difficult questions.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
 "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 00:36:48 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:36:48 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <9b9ski+6qum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9baqf0+makg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16772

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did 
Voldemort 
> need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? Why couldn't Moody turn 
> a door knob or one of Harry's books into a port key? Surely in the 
> course of a year he could get Harry to touch something. Rowling 
> should have had Voldemort say something like this to his death 
eaters 
> in the graveyard. 
> 


Oooh, I'm glad someone brought this up!  It might have actually come 
up before but I'm not so good at going back through the postings (nor 
do I have the patience).  Anyway, I've given this one some thought...

Aside from obvious plot development (which is a pretty powerful 
motivation), I think that Voldemort simply was not ready until the 
last task.  Remember the hideous red ugly baby looking thing he was?  
He needed time to gather information, strength, plan and get at least 
enough support to succeed in getting his body and powers back.  Now 
call me crazy, but this sounds like no simple feat to me!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks she might have actually written 
this same post




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 00:42:25 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:42:25 -0000
Subject: House Elves, namely Winky
In-Reply-To: <9baq79+udd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9baqph+jvk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16773

  One reason Crouch fires her 
> is that he has to go along with the pretense that she cast the Dark 
> Mark, and also get her out of the way before Amos asks her 
> any more difficult questions.
> 
> Amy Z
> 


Thanks, Amy!  Yes, that's a perfect example of how Crouch treated his 
faithful Winky.  I also thought it was pretty awful to fire her 
(knowing how humiliating it is for a house elf to 'get sacked') in 
front of a group of witches and wizards.  What a bad boss!  He didn't 
even care when Amos Diggory called her "Elf!" the way he did.  I get 
angry when my students tell when they've been treated badly at their 
jobs or at home...  shame on Crouch!

-




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:43:38 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:43:38 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
Message-ID: <LAW2-F99mspH2q6DqaJ00007b48@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16774

But we all do live on the labour of others, many of whom are exploited and 
suffer worse conditions than a house-elf.  Many people think about this and 
take steps to minimize it, but many people, without being bad people, simply 
don't.  At least in the wizarding community, the elves are downstairs and 
not on the other side of the world.  I do agree it's unclear where JKR is 
going with this, but her concerns about exclusion and abuse of power have 
been so evident that I trust her to let it unfold.  I too was slightly 
surprised at Harry's seeming lack of concern, but then, he *is* the only 
character who has actually liberated a house elf!  As I indicated in reply 
to "How rich is Harry?" (whenever that eventually shows up) I think Harry 
will eventually discover that he has inherited a house and is a house-elf 
owner.  Then he will have to think about it.


>From: meboriqua at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
>Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:23:54 -0000
>
>
> > What I'm trying to say (albeit in a very long-winded way) is that
>JKR
> > is probably gently poking fun at the intensity of teenage obsessions
>-
> > how black and white/ life and death, issues can seem.
> >
> > Catherine
>
>That's interesting, Catherine, that people find the whole thing
>amusing.  I didn't see it that way at all, but that's why I love this
>site; getting a myriad of opinions and perspectives all the time.
>
>Some people I've spoken to say that JKR is taking a big risk with her
>house elf story line.  I guess I saw it as another way JKR was trying
>to teach about something.  What I'm still trying to figure out,
>though, is why no one wants to listen to Hermione and SPEW.  I was
>completely on her side and was even a bit disappointed with *gasp*
>Harry for not backing her more.
>
>I can't really poke fun at oppression, and as much as I like the
>theory about the shoemaker elves (thanks, Magda), I am still
>uncomfortable with where JKR is with Dobby, Winky and the others.  If
>I was a rich witch, I can't imagine (as me) thinking it was okay to
>have a house elf.
>
>--jenny f
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 00:48:31 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:48:31 -0000
Subject: An Unexpected DADA (Why Dumbledore doesn't let Snape teach DADA)
In-Reply-To: <9ba536+lor7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bar4v+k305@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16775

Swirly Head:"I agree with this. I also think it's partly due to the 
fact that Snape used to be a Death Eater. No matter how much 
Dumbledore trusts him, I think that perhaps some of the other 
professors/people at the Ministry wouldn't be happy with a former DE 
teaching young, impressionable wizards and witches about the Dark 
Arts.

Snape is a recovering Death Eater, and, like other recovering people, 
he will never be recovered fully.  Would you give a recovering 
alcoholic the keys to the liquor storeroom?  It's not a quesiton of 
trust.  

I got the impression that a lot of other people (like Fudge) aren't 
even that aware Snape was a DE.  The teachers mostly know, though, and 
even the ones that don't know wouldn't want Mr. Nasty teaching DADA.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:48:55 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:48:55 -0000
Subject: Spectators During 2nd/3rd Task (was Re: Plot holes filled?)
In-Reply-To: <9b9ski+6qum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bar5n+o8qj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16776

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:

> Now I just need to just figure out why anybody would want to watch 
> the second and third tasks. Staring at a hedge and the unruffled 
> surface of a lake lacks a certain visual appeal.

Well, there's several takes on what spectators actually *did* during 
the Second and Third Tasks.  For those of you who read fanfiction, a 
good take on spectator action is found in Heidi's Surfeit of 
Curses.  ;-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ



<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< 
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"Those who have ceased to love 
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care 
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that 
Never ask, the minds that never 
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 00:52:43 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:52:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How wealthy is Harry Potter? 
In-Reply-To: <00d901c0c502$5781ba60$1a3570c2@c5s910j>
References: <9b2nsm+lgnc@eGroups.com> <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net> <004901c0c443$77553660$be3670c2@c5s910j> <002f01c0c4fc$d0429100$3207173f@rena>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414205243.0068d12c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16777

At 05:45 PM 4/14/01 +0100, you wrote:

>That's a very good point, Rena, and if he did have a vast fortune, he might
>have considered buying, or been advised to buy, himself a house and get away
>from the Dursleys for good (or perhaps become a permanent tenant  at The
>Leaky Cauldron?).  It wouldn't make sense for someone so independently
>wealthy to be living in a poky bedroom at his Aunt and Uncle's house, would
>it?

First of all, it's not Muggle money, so he probably couldn't buy a house.
Secondly, he was deprived of many things as a child, and I think that an
idea such as living as a permanent tenant (where he'd have to pay for the
room and food everyday and therefore squander so much money unnecessarily)
doesn't even occur to him. Finally, he's just a kid. He might feel
rebellious and want to get away now and then, but ultimately, he probably
needs the security of living with a family, even if that family is quite,
quite mean to him.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:55:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:55:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1049FopYC98Bi000073ce@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16778




jenny wrote:

>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> > It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did
>Voldemort
> > need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? Why couldn't Moody turn
> > a door knob or one of Harry's books into a port key? Surely in the
> > course of a year he could get Harry to touch something. Rowling
> > should have had Voldemort say something like this to his death
>eaters
> > in the graveyard.
> >
>
>
>Oooh, I'm glad someone brought this up!  It might have actually come
>up before but I'm not so good at going back through the postings (nor
>do I have the patience).  Anyway, I've given this one some thought...
>
>Aside from obvious plot development (which is a pretty powerful
>motivation), I think that Voldemort simply was not ready until the
>last task.  Remember the hideous red ugly baby looking thing he was?
>He needed time to gather information, strength, plan and get at least
>enough support to succeed in getting his body and powers back.  Now
>call me crazy, but this sounds like no simple feat to me!
>
>--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks she might have actually written
>this same post
>
Even if V wasn't ready till then (agreed, highly probable, assuming he 
wanted to kill Harry personally and not just have Wormtail do it), Moody 
needn't have gone to the trouble of entering Harry in the Tournament.  He 
need only have waited and then used any ordinary object.  I think eggplant's 
speech for V deals with this brilliantly - perhaps future collectors will 
look for the "Portkey" edition, as well as the "wand order" edition *g*!


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 00:59:07 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:59:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F21KWiGtXsL1c0000076ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414205907.00693368@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16779

At 12:16 AM 4/15/01, you wrote:
>Much as I would like to take the credit for this witty and prescient 
>observation, it rightly belongs to eggplant.  I don't think they could see 
>over the hedges, because if so they could give the champions clues.

Probably not, but I think the third task could be extremely exciting and
tense for an audience who can only hear the sounds of spells bursting,
creatures howling and growling, and the contestants yelling and screaming.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 01:02:42 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <9baoqj+o235@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010415010242.28824.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16780


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Uh-oh, next thing you know I'll be ordering the
> French versions.  My 
> obsession rating would skyrocket to dangerous
> levels.  But it would be 
> a good way to brush up on my long-neglected French,
> wouldn't it?  
> (Someone please say "yes" and hand me an excuse.)
> 
My daughter snagged the French version of CoS from the
school library (she goes to French school) the other
week, and she had to keep asking me to give it back to
her. I was having too much fun seeing how they
translated some of the passages. I was surprised to
see even how the names got translated. Of course Tom
Riddle had to be renamed so the anagram works out. In
French he's Tom Elvis(!) Jedusor. I thought that was a
hoot. I'd say definitely brush up on your French, you
never know when it'll come in handy.

Anne

__________________________________________________
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 01:21:57 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:21:57 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
Message-ID: <LAW2-F82IEAOeIiGXix0000729a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16781

Anne (A B) wrote:
>My daughter snagged the French version of CoS from the
>school library (she goes to French school) the other
>week, and she had to keep asking me to give it back to
>her. I was having too much fun seeing how they
>translated some of the passages. I was surprised to
>see even how the names got translated. Of course Tom
>Riddle had to be renamed so the anagram works out. In
>French he's Tom Elvis(!) Jedusor. I thought that was a
>hoot. I'd say definitely brush up on your French, you
>never know when it'll come in handy.

Yeah, I'd love to see "muggle", and "squib".  And what about Ron's, er, 
astronomical joke?  Do share, if the librarian is not close kin to Madam 
Pince!  But why rename Tom Riddle, since Voldemort is a French-derived name, 
anyway?

_________________________________________________________________________
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From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 01:26:09 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:26:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F99mspH2q6DqaJ00007b48@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414212609.00a241a8@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16782

At 12:43 AM 4/15/01, you wrote:

>>I was completely on her side and was even a bit disappointed with *gasp*
>>Harry for not backing her more.

>I too was slightly surprised at Harry's seeming lack of concern, but then,
he 
>*is* the only character who has actually liberated a house elf!  

I wasn't really surprised at Harry's relative lack of enthusiasm at
Hermione's crusade. Don't most of us agree that there are injustices that
need correcting, and yet when offered an opportunity to take an aggressive
stance on the issue, we simply beg other pressing concerns and back out?
Perhaps we are just relunctant to commit ourselves on the issue, or stand
up and take a relatively extreme position compared to that of others? Or
maybe it's just me ...

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 15 01:39:49 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:39:49 -0700
Subject: magic late in life - House Elves - Snape - Anagram
Message-ID: <3AD8FBE5.F3845BA3@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16783

Neil wrote:
> I don't think Mrs Figg is a likely candidate for discovering magic
> later in life.  I think that could be Petunia.  JKR has said something

> along the lines of some surprising change of storyline in relation to
> the Dursleys and, IMO, Petunia is more likely to have a dormant
> magical ability than Dudley, because Dudley is too young to be
> regarded as being late in life within the framework of this book
series.

I think if Dudley got magic at age 15, the wizarding folk would consider
that to be late in life, because they expect all wizards and witches to
show their magic by age 11.

I wish  (but don't expect) it would be Petunia who gets magic, because I
would very much like either for Lily and Petunia's Muggle parents to be
Squibs or descendants of Squibs, who already knew all about Hogwarts
when Lily got her Hogwarts letter, or else for Lily's parents to be
Muggles who knew about the wizarding world and therefore were chosen as
foster parents for Petunia who was being thrown away by her biological
family for being a Squib (which would account for her resentment against
magic!) and Petunia was Narcissa's sister.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> BTW, Mundungus Fletcher was also mentioned as part of the old
> crowd. I'm very interested to meet the person who tried to get one
> over on the MOM after the World Cup.  I know he was mentioned
> earlier, but can't remember where.  I'll go look!

Relatively early in Book 2. Harry has just arrived at The Burrow. Mr
Weasley comes home from a hard night at work: Nine raids! Nine! and
Mundungus Fletcher tried to hex me when my back was turned.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote
> Some people I've spoken to say that JKR is taking a big risk
> with her house elf story line.  I guess I saw it as another way
> JKR was trying to teach about something. (snip)  If I was a
> rich witch, I can't imagine (as me) thinking it was okay to
> have a house elf.

JKR said in an interview that she hadn't intended to have the SPEW
subplot but Hermione insisted.

If I were a rich witch, my conscience would not be troubled by having a
House Elf, but my conscience would force me to go talk to the House Elf
from time to time, and ask her/him if there is anything she/he wants in
the way of vacation time, special food, cleaning supplies, money. If a
House Elf wanted to do all this yucky work for me just in exchange for
room and board, I would feel grateful but not guilty.

Jim Ferer wrote:
> I got the impression that a lot of other people (like Fudge) aren't
> even that aware Snape was a DE.

How big of an idiot does Fudge have to be not to know that Snape was
once a DE when Fudge was working at the Ministry at the time that it was
announced in open court, with reporters present, that Snape had formerly
been a DE but had become a spy for Our Side at great personal risk?

Morag wrote:
>  But why rename Tom Riddle, since Voldemort is a
> French-derived name, anyway?

Because it has to anagram 'Je suis' rather than 'I am'? The new name
doesn't seem to have enough extra letters to say Je m'appelle Lord
Voldemort.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 01:47:12 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:47:12 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
Message-ID: <LAW2-F45JLtosJ3Ih7j000074b3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16784

Samaporn wrote:
>I wasn't really surprised at Harry's relative lack of enthusiasm at
>Hermione's crusade. Don't most of us agree that there are injustices that
>need correcting, and yet when offered an opportunity to take an aggressive
>stance on the issue, we simply beg other pressing concerns and back out?
>Perhaps we are just relunctant to commit ourselves on the issue, or stand
>up and take a relatively extreme position compared to that of others? Or
>maybe it's just me ...
>
>Samaporn

You're quite right in what you say (apart from its being just you, of course 
:) ) but I don't recall Harry even making the kind of feeble excuses we all 
make in such situations.  My considered opinion is, he pays more attention 
to whether the house-elves he meets are happy, than to abstract arguments 
about rights and justice - and, with the obvious exception of Winky, for 
quite different reasons, they do seem happy at Hogwarts.  I just don't think 
he's making the connection at this stage.  And then Ron - his main source of 
information on the wizarding world - is unenthusiastic, even hostile to the 
idea that the elves *as a group* need liberating.  I think Hermione has 
always shown more grasp of abstract ideas than either of the boys - she's 
the one who reminds them *why* there are rules, when they are concerned only 
with the restrictions they impose.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 01:52:03 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:52:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP goes PC?
In-Reply-To: <9b7isb+10nhu@eGroups.com>
References: <9b70f2+trao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414215203.00a25840@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16785

At 07:08 PM 4/13/01 -0000, you wrote:

>However, I have to say that I personally prefer the elves' attachment 
>to humans to be natural rather than cultural. (Please note that I've 
>used the word 'preference' - there isn't canonical proof that it is 
>so, and JKR may develop the elf issue in either direction). 

>I've said it before that I think that it also makes the moral issues 
>more interesting, because it's not a situation we humans, in the real 
>world, have ever had to deal with. For instance, *is* it fair to 
>treat an elf as an equal? It would be preposterous to even ask 
>this question here, in the real world. In HP, the question is 
>valid and much more intriguing and challenging if house elves have an 
>innate tendency to serve humans. 

I can see how that would be an intriguing question; this moral issue would
take a different slant from what we are used to addressing in the
contemporary world. 
I'm not American and I couldn't care less about PC-ness or unPC-ness, but I
feel very strongly about the idea that any other living creature should be
in a state of natural servitude to humans. A different way of wording it
would be to say that such an arrangement would be absolutely unnatural ...
perhaps if house elves were created by wizards of ages past to serve them,
I could live with the idea.

>Well, in the real world that we live in, 
>ALL differences of class, power, status are the outcome of historical 
>contingencies and cultural rationalizations. In this world I'm as PC 
>as you can find. But, for the sake of variety and pure difference, 
>I'd rather have in a fantasy book humanoid creatures that are truly 
>different from humans; whose difference is innate, not acquired.

The world is already filled innate differences among genders, races, and
species =).

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Sun Apr 15 01:54:57 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:54:57 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Hermione & OCD
In-Reply-To: <3AD72FEF.BBF60A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bav1j+qc5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16786

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

>> Demelza wrote:

>> Nope. As I explained above, a hypothesis was put forth that Ron is
>> jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Jealousy is an observed
>> behavior. Hermione observed this behavior somewhere to make that
>> assessment. Because the revelation occurs in Ch 18 GoF, the 
behavior
>> had to have occurred before that chapter and perhaps before GoF.
>> <snip> I looked through the data I had (the books by
>> J.K. Rowling) for signs of this observed behavior. I couldn't find
>> anything in the prior books or in the chapters leading up to Ch 18.
>> GoF that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Again, I 
would
>> be interested to find evidence to supports it.

>There is evidence of jealousy in Chapter 7 of GoF.  It's not
evidence 
of
>Ron's jealousy of Harry's *fame,* but it is evidence of Ron's 
jealousy
>of Harry's money.

Well, we agree that that there is no evidence to support Hermione's 
assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention he
garner. Therefore, Hermione's assessment was incorrect.

>> "No -- don't bother," said Ron, going red.  He was always touchy 
about
>> the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his 
parents,
>> had much more money than he did."

Let's look at this within the context of the scene. They are at the 
World Cup. Merchants are selling souvenirs. Ron says: "I've been 
saving my pocket money all summer for this". He then buys a hat with 
dancing shamrocks and a Krum action figure. Harry spots a merchant 
hawking omnioculars. Ron looks at them and says he wished he didn't 
spend his money on the other stuff. Harry directs the merchant to
sell him three pairs. THEN, Ron says the material you quoted. 

Now let's look in the prior books. PS/SS on the train to Hogwarts,
Ron hints that they don't have much money: second-hand pet, 
second-hand wand. Compound that with the Draco remark that one can 
spot a Weasley by hair color and by "having more children than they 
can afford". CoS Ron is nervous what Harry's impression is about the 
Burrow (which, based on the description, wouldn't be featured in 
"House Beautiful" any time soon). It's obvious that Ron is ashamed of 
his family's economic status. There's a fine line between pride and 
envy, and it can be very hard to distinguish the two. In my late 
childhood to early teens, I spent my summers in rural West Virginia. 
The poverty there is unforgettable. I knew families like the Weasleys: 
generous, willing to share what little food and comforts they have 
with you, but dirt poor. They were "touchy" about money too and that 
touchiness wasn't envy; it was pride. They weren't envious of people 
who have money; they were ashamed of themselves that they don't and 
that they were looked upon as inferior due to their money situation.  
However, if you let Hermione's 'Ron is jealous of Harry's fame' get 
the better of you by subconsciously ignoring that bit about the fame 
and attention, then I can see how you might believe Ron is jealous of 
Harry's money.
 
>[side note: Rita -- this is JKR referring to the Potter wealth as a
>"small fortune" -- it seems you challenged last weekend that it
might 
be
>a large fortune.  All a matter of perspective, but JKR does describe 
it
>here as a "small" fortune]

Other people have addressed this colloquialism.

>> Please see the above quoted section from GoF Ch 18. Harry is
>>"incredulous" at this jealousy revelation.
>> Later in Ch 18 can be found this curious passage:
>> ***
>> Harry didn't answer. Yes, everything did seem to happen to
him
that
>> was more or less what Hermione had said as they walked about the 
lake,
>>
>> and that was the reason, according to her, that Ron was no longer
>> talking to him.
>> ***
>> "that was the reason, according to [Hermione], that Ron was no 
longer
>>talking to him."
>> Interesting choice of words J.K.Rowling has chosen. It doesn't say
>> "that was the reason Ron was no longer talking to him". It 
qualifies
>> that this is _Hermione's_ reason, with almost implying that Harry
>> that's not Harry's reason too.

>Yes, but he still doesn't think, "She's off her rocker; that's just
>crazy.  I've seen no evidence of that."  No, he just seems to realize
>that he's been blind not to see it before.

On the other hand, he doesn't completely buy it either. There's a 
reason why Harry identifies it as Hermione's. In everyday 
conversation, people use this same sentence structure when they wish 
to be non-committal, especially in the workplace. We must also 
consider Harry's mental state during this time. I address that later.

>I don't think JKR has to give us factual evidence of *everything* in
>order to interject something like this.  It didn't jar with me as a
>reader.  I didn't think to myself, "Ron jealous?  Of Harry's fame?
>Where'd *that* come from?"  No, I was reading along & thinking, 
"Well,
>of course he is."  It fits IMO.

Very true, she left out evidence of Ron's jealousy of Harry's fame
and attention. The first time I read it I assumed the same thing. The 
second time I read GoF, I read it more closely and found the
contrary. We know from Ron's mirror of Erised experience, that his 
heart's desire (as of PS/SS) was to be Quidditch Team Captain and to 
be Head Boy---like _Charlie and Bill_. It's not really fair to Ron for 
us to interpret his desires to be like his _brothers_, as 'jealousy of 
_Harry_" That's the mistake Hermione made and look at the harm it 
caused: it extinguished Harry's initial determination to sort things 
out with Ron.

>The R/H shippers are under the impression that Hermione spends all 
her
>time, when not with Ron & Harry or just Harry, with Ron.  So, if 
true,
>she's in a good position to know if he's jealous of Harry's fame. We 
as
>readers might not be privy to it since we're only given Harry's POV 
for
>the most part.

Because I'm not a shipper of any kind, I would have to disagree. I 
don't think Hermione spends much time with anyone outside of Harry
and Ron. Presumably she shares a dormitory with Parvati and Lavendar. 
It was noted in GoF Ch 20 that she sat beside Ginny at breakfast. 
During the Ron separation, we see Ron talking with or sitting with 
other Gryffindors, such as the twins, Seamus and Dean. But during the 
Hermione estrangement in PoA, Hermione isn't seen in the company of 
other Gryffindors. She is alone, studying in a corner of the Common 
Room, or helping Hagrid with Buckbeak's case. Among her peer group, 
Harry and Ron are her closest friends (if not her only friends). Ron 
was able to blend into other peer cliques. Hermione didn't through 
choice or couldn't through inadequacy of social skills. Either way, I 
feel sorry for her.

>The important thing to me though is that Harry doesn't internally or
>externally deny that Ron could be jealous of his fame and the 
attention
>that he receives.  He may have been initially surprised to hear it
>vocalized, and you're right, he ruminates about it later.  But, he
>doesn't attempt to explain it away.

No he doesn't explain it away. But look the environmental stressors
in Harry's life at that point in time. He is sure that someone 
submitted his name with the hopes he'll get killed. He is estranged 
from his best friend---the very FIRST best-friend he ever had in his 
life and most of the school is treating him like a pariah. (Ch 18 GoF:
"[Harry] thought he could have coped with the rest of the school's 
behavior if he could just have had Ron back as a friend, but he wasn't 
going to try to persuade Ron to talk to him if Ron didn't want to. 
Nevertheless, it was lonely with dislike pouring in from all sides.) 
He is under pressure to defeat a dragon. His god-father is risking
his life in order to be nearby Hogwarts because of Harry. That's quite 
an emotional load, on top of the daily 'normal' emotional load. 
Harry's feelings toward Ron become rather violent in nature as the 
First Task approaches. It can be simply explained as one of the ego 
defense mechanisms. Harry feels anxious and, in a way, not in control 
of his situation (because things seem to happen to him, per Hermione). 
He suppresses these feelings. But his psyche needs a 'release'; Harry 
engages in 'displaced aggression' and vents his anger culminating
with throwing a 'Potter Stinks' badge at Ron and striking Ron's 
forehead (Ch 19). Ron might have his hang-ups, but through his 
troubles with Hermione in PoA and his troubles with Harry, he did not 
resort to physical violence.
 
>> Only AFTER Harry tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she
>> noticed his demeanor and that she believed him.

>She may have been "staring blankly back" as far as Harry's view was
>concerned.  But, you can't possibly argue that he could have known 
what
>was going on inside her head while she was staring back at him.  Just
>because her expression, as far as shocked/stunned Harry is concerned,
>didn't reflect what she she later claimed she was thinking doesn't 
mean
>she *wasn't* thinking it.  We only have her word that she was 
thinking
>it.  But, I believe her (and so does Harry).

Likewise, you can't possibly argue that Hermione is truthfully 
reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We aren't privy to
her thought process. In order to objectively determine her veracity, 
you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, especially those 
concerning Ron. In cluding, Hermione's giggling at Ron's revelation
of arachnophobia. Her insensitivity towards Ron's concerns that his 
pet rat is being targeted by her pet cat. Ron's ability at chess. 
PS/SS specifically states that Hermione wasn't good at it, nearly the 
same way she wasn't good at Divination. Furthermore, does Hermione 
have an 'axe to grind with Ron'? You bet she does! Less than a year 
before, Harry took Ron's side during their estrangement. In light of 
this pattern, she does have a motive.

My point is Hermione's personality isn't all that 'black & white'. J. 
K. Rowling has enabled us to lead ourselves down the proverbial
garden path. But she has cleverly included seemingly minor, fleeting, 
but highly insightful, stepping stones away from that path. Could they 
be pitfalls? Certainly. But the series isn't finished, so it's a 
fallacy to ignore them. 

>> 1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, 
or
>> schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is 
lost

>If the point of the activity was lost, Hermione wouldn't achieve top
>marks.  She'd just obsess about the study schedules and the 
organization
>of her notes but not do well on the exams.  We know this isn't true.

Yes, and I did write that when these behaviors interfered with 
Hermione's daily functioning then, she could be diagnosed as OCD. I 
also wrote that just because she doesn't fulfill the diagnostic 
criteria doesn't negate that these behaviors exist and pose a 
potential mental health threat. Though cardiologists define high
blood pressure as three consecutive blood pressure measurements 
greaterthan or equal to 135/85, they don't turn a blind eye to 
measurements of 134/84 because it doesn't fulfill the definition of 
high blood pressure. 

>> 3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to exclusion of
>> leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious
>> economic necessity)

>We don't know what she does with *all* her leisure time.  You can't 
say
>that you know for sure what she's doing 100% of the time when she is 
not
>with Harry.  We may have the impression from Harry that she spends 
alot
>of time studying, but we have no evidence of this.  She also spends 
some
>time playing chess with Ron (if you're a R/H shipper, you think she
>plays alot of chess games with Ron).  If you're a Ginny fan, you 
believe
>that she spends plenty of leisure time cultivating a friendship with
>Ginny who's burgeoning into a lovely young lady who will be perfect 
for
>Harry.  Point is: we don't know what she does with her "leisure 
time."

Again, if this excessive devotion to work and productivity interferes 
with her daily functioning, as the diagnostic criteria states, then
it is will be more definitive. But as I wrote above, you cannot 
discount the presence of the behavior. There are instances in the 
books that have Hermione playing chess or exploding snap. In GoF, CH 
19 "There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the 
library when Hermione was your best friend." I doubt Madame Pince 
allowsgames of exploding snap in her library. Of course, one could 
argue thatthis is written from Harry's POV, so it is somewhat limited 
and distorted, therefore, does not paint an accurate picture of what 
is 'really' happening. Well, if that's the favored argument, then it 
can be applied to virtually everything written by J. K. Rowling in the
Potter series; that most of it is distorted because it's written from
Harry's POV. I'm glad I don't write fiction. It must be terribly 
unsatisfying to learn your reading audience has so little regard for 
the way _you_ have choosen to represent _your_ characters.
 
>> 4. is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters 
of
>> morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or
>> religious identification)

>Maybe.  If SPEW is the only example though, I hardly think this
>qualifies her for OCD.

Correct, this alone won't qualify her for OCD. However, this is the 
one diagnostic criteria Hermione meets wholly. One done, three to 
satisfy completely.

>> 8. shows rigidity and stubbornness"

>Alot of people show rigidity & stubbornness.  She doesn't meet 4 of 
your
>definitions IMO, so this alone (or even arguably in conjunction with 
#4)
>above is, IMO, not nearly enough to make the assertion that she has 
OCD.

First of all, these aren't _my_ definitions. These are the diagnostic 
criteria developed and used by the American Psychiatric Association 
for the diagnosis of Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. These 
criteria can be found in the "Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of 
Mental Disorders: Fourth Edition revised" (aka "DSM-4R") published by 
the American Psychiatric Association. In other words, these are the 
criteria used by psychiatrists and other mental health professionals 
to diagnose OCD and a host of other mental disorders. Again, as I 
wrote in my prior messages and have repeated here, once these
criteria are met. That is, once these behaviors interfere with her 
daily functioning, she will have the 4 or more criteria for OCD as set 
by the American Psychiatric Association. Once again, I will repeat. 
That just because she cannot be diagnosed at this time, that does not
erase the existence of the behaviors nor does it erase any mental 
health concern for them. 'Just because mother isn't in the room, 
doesn't necessarily mean she isn't in the house'. 

Furthermore, you're not incorrect. In psychoanalysis, everyone has a 
diagnosis: nobody is 'normal'. (That's why mental health is a 
particularly lucrative profession.) However, 'normalcy' is partly 
determined by how well you can continue to function in spite of the 
behavior(s). Behaviors are 'normal variants' until the impede the 
daily living activities of the person. 

>> In the meantime, she can be possibly diagnosed as Personality
>> Disorder, NOS which is a category for disorders that do not meet
>> criteria for any specific Personality Disorder.

>LOL!  So .... we could all have a personality disorder under this 
random
>catch-all categroy, yes?!  I guess if you're that determined to argue
>that Hermione has a personality disorder ....

As I wrote above, no one is immune to a psychiatric diagnosis. Again, 
it all goes back to how well you can perform you daily activities in 
spite of your behaviors. Again, mental health is lucrative because it 
has an endless market.

A third party might successfully argue I'm as determined to give 
Hermione a psychiatric diagnosis as you are in denial that she has
the potential for one. And I might add that this fictitious third 
party probably won't ignore my constant use of the words 'potential', 
'possible', 'probably' and won't ignore the times I've written that 
the behaviors must interfere with Hermione's activites of daily 
living(functioning) in order to be diagnosed with OCD.

>> Desiring academic acheivement is no different than desiring 
financial
>> stability or fame. Both can be 'good' because it can serve as
>> motivation. Both can be 'bad' when that desire becomes
overwhelming 
to
>>the point of self-destruction.

>I see no evidence that Hermione is self-destructing, Demelza.  As
>someone else noted, she does achieve her goals (academic success), in
>contrast to Ron, who seemingly makes little or no effort to meet his 
own
>ambitions or goals (or even recognize that he has them).

Likewise I don't see Ron self-destructing either. What has puzzled me 
from reading the various critiques on Ron is that one set of desires 
is regarded as 'positive' (Hermione's desire for academic
achievement) and another set is regarded as 'negative' (Ron's desire 
for financial stability and recognition). Ron is the youngest son in a 
largefamily; he's in the shadows of his older brothers. His parents 
_just_ manage to scrape by on his father's income. If we are to heed 
the theories that Molly's favorite child is Percy and Arthur 
identifies more with the twins, then Ron is also competing for 
parental attention and love, in addition to generalized familial 
recognition. It's only logical that Ron would have these feelings. It 
would be more disturbing if Ron _didn't_ feel this way. Fred and 
George have these same 'ambitions': they get recognition (at times 
negative) due to their prankster antics and they are also concerned 
about the family's financial situation. But I haven't read any 
messages lately that intimate Fred and George have the aptitude for 
betraying Harry because they strive for recognition and money.

In terms of Ron making little effort to meet his goals. He wants 
financial stability. What's he supposed to do? Drop out of Hogwarts 
and find a job? Start a mail-order business or Internet company, 
peddle mind-altering substances to his Hogwarts classmates, lie about 
his age and join the Merchant Navy? He's 14 years old and realizes 
this impediment. GoF Ch "It's rubbish," said Ron, still glaring down 
at his potato. "I don't blame Fred and George for trying to make some 
extra money. Wish I could. Wish I had a niffler." As for familial 
recognition, Ron has played a part in many adventures, including the 
rescue of his sister. So Ron is fulfilling at least one ambition. 

We must remember the characters are adolescents. Adolescence is a
time of self-actualization and personality development. This is a book 
series in development; therefore, nothing is set in stone it is 
completed. Lol, for all we know Ron might become more studious in 
light of the looming O.W.L.S and Hermione might decide she's had 
enough with the studying and decides to party. Will hard-core
opinions of the characters change? I have my reservations about that. 

>> Phobias can be debilitating to those who have them. For someone 
with a
>> phobia , for example of frogs, to even be in the same room with the
>> object is a tremendous accomplishment. Sure Ron was pale and
>> diaphoretic, but he still faced Aragog and overcame his fear, even 
if
>> it was a little. Hermione on the other hand, ran screaming from her
>> boggart.

>Please understand me.  I've said this several times now.  I 
tremendously
>admire that Ron was able to follow the spiders into the forest!!  I 
do.
>Really.  I was just arguing that it's not true to say that he 
"overcame"
>his fear of spiders.  If he overcame that fear, he wouldn't still 
wince
>or push back in his seat during Moody's lesson in GoF.  He does a 
great
>job of facing Aragog boggart in PoA.  He's most definitely 
"confronted"
>his fear head-on, and made very very admirable steps toward facing
up 
to
>it.  I merely objected to the use of the word "overcame."  That's 
all.
>Put your weapons away.  <g>  Believe me, I have an intense phobia of
>palmetto bugs (large flying cockroaches), and I wouldn't follow even 
one
>of them anywhere, let alone a line of them.  I've been known to close
>off a room until my husband comes home ... and then made him show me 
the
>dead body (from a distance!) so he couldn't just say, "Yeah, I killed
>it."

Yes, Ron completed a significant milestone in his dealing with his 
phobia. He should be admired and given the credit due for that.

Demelza







From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Sun Apr 15 02:09:16 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:09:16 -0000
Subject: Lupin the Writer
In-Reply-To: <9b8b0d+hfn1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bavsc+9kav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16787

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> (I asked this question once before, and only got one response, 
> probably b/c my subject line wasn't really indicitive of the 
> question, I'll ask again...)
> 
> Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout, 
> Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The 
> publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than I 
> thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the 
> Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79).  Unless he wrote it AT 
> Hogwarts, he's pretty smart -- maybe after the Snape Prank incident 
> he was inspired.  I would really like to think he wrote it, that 
way, 
> I could imagine that he got a few royalities off the book, I 
wouldn't 
> have to worry about him so much, financially and all. 
> 
> Stephanie

That was my initial thought. But then I remember in a recent BBC 
interview, J. K. Rowling revealed that Snape was 35-36 years old. So 
if Snape was 35-36 in the early-mid 90's, when the Potter series 
occurs and if the Lupin is in the same age group as Snape, then he 
would have been about in his teens when the book was written. Of 
course, that wouldn't necessarily he could not have written the book. 

Demelza






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 15 03:17:37 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:17:37 -0000
Subject: HP goes PC?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010414215203.00a25840@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9bb3sh+4tv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16788

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:

> I'm not American and I couldn't care less about PC-ness or 
> unPC-ness, but I feel very strongly about the idea that any
> other living creature should be in a state of natural servitude
> to humans. 

Dogs.

Just about every breed of dog has a natural instinct to obey its pack 
leader and to seek the approval of its pack leader, and most breeds 
of dog have the instinct that its pack leader is a human and not to 
challenge the human pack leader for dominance.  

> A different way of wording it would be to say that such an
> arrangement would be absolutely unnatural ...

I live with cats, rather than dogs, and it is quite obvious that 
cats do not have an innate need to serve humans. Because feral cats 
live quite naturally eating vermin and garbage and fearfully fleeing 
from any human.  But it IS part of the innate nature of cats that if 
you get them around weaning age and bring them into a human home and 
treat them as a member of the human family, they grow up with a 
life-long behavior pattern as if they were still kittens and the 
humans are their mother and littermates.  I cannot consider it 
'absolutely unnatural' to have a natural behavior pattern, just 
pointed to a different direction than in the wild. 

We started with House Elves and worked around to Dogs and Cats and I 
suppose that any replies which are not about Sirius, Crookshanks, and 
Mrs. Norris should go to the Off-Topic list...




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 15 03:25:03 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:25:03 -0000
Subject: Snape as DE (was magic late in life - House Elves - Snape - Anagram)
In-Reply-To: <3AD8FBE5.F3845BA3@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9bb4af+5mbv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16789

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> How big of an idiot does Fudge have to be not to know that Snape was
> once a DE when Fudge was working at the Ministry at the time that  
> it was announced in open court, with reporters present, that Snape 
> had formerly been a DE but had become a spy for Our Side at great  
> personal risk?

This has been giving me a great deal of trouble lately, because I too 
get the impression that Fudge (and others) may not know of Snape's 
true involvement with the DEs. 

First of all, Rita Skeeter is NOT mentioned in the memory of 
Karkaroff's trial, which could mean that she was not there. (She 
comes into play in the memory of Bagman's trial, however.) I won't 
say defintely, but I feel strongly that she wasn't present.

The people at the trial are a council. I think that most of the 
knowledge of the council is kept within the council, save when a 
reporter is present. However, I got the feeling that Bagman's trial 
was much more public than Karkaroff's; I think that Snape's clearance 
was also a quiet trial, perhaps even more secretive than Karkaroff's.

I doubt that Snape was apprehended like Karkaroff was; rather, I 
think he went straight to Dumbledore when he decided to turn back to 
Our Side. So, Dumbledore and Snape went to private trial, perhaps 
with a small council, (Crouch, etc.) and went on their way. Snape 
became a spy.

Anyhoo, aside from the mention at Karkaroff's trial (which was made 
simply to ensure that Snape was not taken and apprehended, IMO), I 
think that Snape's work as a DE was kept highly under-wraps. Crouch 
and Dumbledore cleared him, so he began to work as spy. However, his 
spy work and his involvement with the DEs was kept fairly secret; not 
too many witches and wizards know about it, and even fewer know the 
details. I think that it puts Snape in a very compromising position, 
so very few people are privy to much information, and those that are 
keep it pretty quiet. Sirius didn't even know that Snape was once a 
DE. I imagine that Fudge didn't either, because of the type of 
secrecy that is involved. I believe that Snape's position is a bit of 
mystery to the average wizard.

> 
>                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
>                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
>                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
>                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((

Rather OT, but anyhoo, regarding that interesting image... How long 
does it take you to figure out how to do something like that? Or do 
you pick this sort of thing up on the net somewhere?

Lyda




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 03:42:35 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:42:35 -0000
Subject: Sirius - Has anyone noted this?
In-Reply-To: <9b9rld+nvrp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bb5bb+isjm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16790

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> I am nervous too-- has anyone taken note that Rita Skeeter now knows
> that Sirius Black is an animagus??? And that he is close to 
Harry??? 
> 
> Do any of us really believe that she will keep this a secret???
> This is what has protected him all along-- the fact that he could 
> transform into a dog and that nobody except a few trusted friends 
knew > about this ability. Now the dementors will know....
> 
> *shudder*
> 
> --Suzanne
> (Thinking that the North End of Boston would be a splendid place 
for Sirius to hide out)

An increasing number of people now know the secret:
The trustworthy ones: the Trio, Dumbledore, Lupin.  
The questionable one: Snape - although since Dumbledore has pointedly 
remarked that he and Sirius are now on the same side I don't think 
that Snape will betray this particular secret.
The unknown: Molly Weasley - and I bet she'll tell Arthur.  Plus,  
she'll probably also want to know how and why her youngest son seems 
to be on good terms with an escaped murderer.

The dangerous ones:  Pettigrew and Skeeter. You'd think by now that 
whatever Pettigrew knows has already been passed on to Voldemort. If 
so, this may come into play at a later date whenever V. thinks he has 
the most to gain.  Perhaps Skeeter will try to make a deal with 
someone along the lines of "I won't reveal anything harmful to you as 
long as you provide me with inside information."  She could hold this 
over Sirius' head directly or use it to try to get info from Harry. 

Which leads me to a totally unrelated topic - is there any other 
source of news for the wizard world besides the Daily Planet?  We've 
discussed the problems of the wizard court/legal system.  Does anyone 
else feel that having only one news outlet is a dangerous thing to a 
society???

Marianne, who feels that Boston is way too popular and that a nice, 
quiet neighborhood outside of Hartford affords better protection to 
wizards on the lam!




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 03:52:28 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:52:28 -0000
Subject: House elves and holidays
In-Reply-To: <9bapmq+jkji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bb5ts+urr8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16791

Hi you guys!
Does anyone remember me? I've been away from the computer so long. 
(It was broken.) There are so many messages to catch up on (over 700) 
and I'm not going to try.

About the House Elves. I find subject this subject very interesting. 
Anyway...

Catherine wrote:
"What I'm trying to say (albeit in a very long-winded way) is that 
JKR is probably gently poking fun at the intensity of teenage 
obsessions- how black and white/ life and death, issues can seem."

--I agree with this wholeheartedly, though I certainly didn't find 
the House Elves funny. Hermione is at the age where you can really 
see the injustices of the world clearly for the first time, and yet 
all the while see that you're powerless to stop it, and trying 
anyway. I think she's to be admired for her strengh and will, even if 
it doesn't seem to be getting her anywhere.

Jenny wrote:
"That's interesting, Catherine, that people find the whole thing 
amusing.  I didn't see it that way at all, but that's why I love this 
site; getting a myriad of opinions and perspectives all the time."

--I didn't find it funny either, though like I said I can see where 
Catherine(')s coming from. On first read however I didn't equate them 
to slavery, though I see where people see that too. Needless to say 
JKR must, since she brought it about, address this problem somehow. I 
have enough confidence in her that it'll be done with grace and most 
of us will be pleased. 

"Some people I've spoken to say that JKR is taking a big risk with 
her house elf story line.  I guess I saw it as another way JKR was 
trying to teach about something.  What I'm still trying to figure 
out, though, is why no one wants to listen to Hermione and SPEW.  I 
was completely on her side and was even a bit disappointed with 
*gasp* Harry for not backing her more."

--I'd like to say I'm suprised  that no one listened to her, but I'm 
not. Obviously you've not had an unpopular opinion of which you tried 
to convince those around you. :-( Hermione's whole SPEW concept goes 
against popular wizarding belief. Even those who subconciously think 
"Maybe she IS right" don't want to believe it, since it is so much 
easier to just accept things the way they are. Remember when 
Dumbledore said "You will have to choose between what is easy and 
what is right." (paraphrased). I think that is as true for the HE(')s 
as it is for Voldemort's return.

Where JKR takes this subplot in future books will be interesting 
indeed. Now a thought I had (and excuse my history it's most likely 
wrong.) In the US civil war didn't escaped slaves who had fled to the 
North then join the Union army and fight against the south? If so, 
and if you're going to compare slavery and HE oppression, then 
mightn't the HE's turn around and fight against those evil masters. 
(i.e. the Malfoy's.)


"I can't really poke fun at oppression, and as much as I like the 
theory about the shoemaker elves (thanks, Magda), I am still 
uncomfortable with where JKR is with Dobby, Winky and the others.  If 
I was a rich witch, I can't imagine (as me) thinking it was okay to 
have a house elf."

--No oppression isn't a funny subject. You can consider me a card 
carrying member of S.P.E.W.

Scott







From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr 15 03:52:25 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:52:25 -0700
Subject: Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9b9rld+nvrp@eGroups.com>
References: <97sket+8au7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414203755.00bd1ed0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16792

At 03:51 PM 4/14/01 +0000, rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
>I am nervous too-- has anyone taken note that Rita Skeeter now knows
>that Sirius Black is an animagus??? And that he is close to Harry???

Hermione could retaliate and say Rita is one too -- But what if she
runs (flies) off like Wormtail?

What I keep worrying about is that he'll finally get aquitted of
murder and helping Voldy, but then they'll throw him back
into Azkaban for being an unregistered animagus!  (If there
still *is* an Azkaban after WizWarII... Otherwise, maybe
they'll just sentence him to a year of Wizard community
service.)

>This is what has protected him all along-- the fact that he could
>transform into a dog and that nobody except a few trusted friends knew
>about this ability. Now the dementors will know....

I think they must realize it already... They forced Sirius back
into human form just before they attempted to give him the
Kiss...

At 01:52 PM 4/14/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Anyway, maybe when Animagi are in their animal forms, they have animal
>tastes.  So eating rats, while not the most pleasant thing, wasn't as
>bad for Padfoot as it would have been for Sirius.  Dogs do eat rats,
>even though they'd prefer a nice steak.

FWIW, Sirius' saying that he was living on rats made me think of
Farley Mowat in _Never Cry Wolf_, who lived on rats in order
to prove that an animal as massive as a wolf could.



                                                 -- Dave




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 03:58:31 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:58:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as DE/HP goes PC?
In-Reply-To: <9bb4af+5mbv@eGroups.com>
References: <3AD8FBE5.F3845BA3@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010414235831.00a20874@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16793

At 03:25 AM 4/15/01 -0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
>> How big of an idiot does Fudge have to be not to know that Snape was
>> once a DE when Fudge was working at the Ministry at the time that  
>> it was announced in open court, with reporters present, that Snape 
>> had formerly been a DE but had become a spy for Our Side at great  
>> personal risk?
>
>I doubt that Snape was apprehended like Karkaroff was; rather, I 
>think he went straight to Dumbledore when he decided to turn back to 
>Our Side. So, Dumbledore and Snape went to private trial, perhaps 
>with a small council, (Crouch, etc.) and went on their way. Snape 
>became a spy.

I seem to recall Dumbledore saying that Snape was never tried for being a
Death Eater. My guess is, as you say, it was a private agreement between
Dumbledore and Snape, with a few other people informed as necessary. 


********

>We started with House Elves and worked around to Dogs and Cats and I 
>suppose that any replies which are not about Sirius, Crookshanks, and 
>Mrs. Norris should go to the Off-Topic list...

You'll forgive me if I just tack the answer to the end of this message; one
HPforGrownups mailing list is quite enough =P.

>> I feel very strongly about the idea that any
>> other living creature should be in a state of natural servitude
>> to humans. 
>
>Dogs.
>
>Just about every breed of dog has a natural instinct to obey its pack 
>leader and to seek the approval of its pack leader, and most breeds 
>of dog have the instinct that its pack leader is a human and not to 
>challenge the human pack leader for dominance.

I agree that there is a social structure among canines, and that in a pack,
there is generally an alpha male to which the rest are more or less
submissive. That a displaced dog (i.e. a pet) will see its human owner as
the pack leader is not surprising. However, that does not mean that dogs
are -naturally- servile to 
-humans-. 

>I cannot consider it 
>'absolutely unnatural' to have a natural behavior pattern, just 
>pointed to a different direction than in the wild. 

Exactly. I guess we essentially agree except on the sticky matter of mere
semantics. With humans going around disrupting natural animal social
structures left and right, there will certainly be a displacement of
natural behaviour on to humans instead. I simply interpreted Naama's
statements as meaning that she wanted to see a scenario where elves (as a
race) were by nature subservient to humans (as a race) - and wanted to say
that I'd feel extremely uncomfortable with such an arrangement because
-that- would seem so unnatural (unless you have some sort of omnipotent
diety, but let's not get into that).

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr 15 04:19:13 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:19:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blasphemy!!!!!!! (slightly related to moie 2 or 3)
In-Reply-To: <9b9bbg+72m0@eGroups.com>
References: <007201c0c4c8$59e420c0$0c2b07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414211453.032ff100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16794

At 11:12 AM 4/14/01 +0000, dasienko at email.com wrote:
>This is OT I'm sure, but Dinah, I guess you've never  seen Dead Poets
>Society, Awakenings, and his Academy Award winning role in Good Will
>Hunting. (among Others). Robin Williams is a Classically Trained
>actor ( Yale or Julliard).

I know... _DPS_ is on right now...  BTW, I notice at the beginning
of the film when the Headmaster says to the one boy, "You have big
shoes to fill -- Your brother was one of the best."  I sincerely hope
no one ever said that to Ron!



                                                 -- Dave




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 04:42:54 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Robin Williams movie role
In-Reply-To: <9b9bbg+72m0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010415044254.89712.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16795

--- dasienko at email.com wrote:
> There has been some chatter that the rumor that
> Robin will appear in 
> an HP movie is False. But if I were asked to cast
> him I see him as 
> Lupin.

I've heard that Robin Williams won't be appearing in
the first movie, but I hold out hope for the later
ones!  I think he'd be perfect in a small role as Sir
Cadogan.  Can you picture him in armor challenging
little first years to a duel?  LOL!


Andrea


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 05:15:20 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:15:20 -0400
Subject: Harry's estrangement in a later book?
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010415011520.006d0ec0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16796


I've been trying to go back to find the relevant posts, but I can't seem to
find them. At any rate, I've been thinking about some of the posts which
point out Ron's thoughtless behaviour in GoF as foreshadowing a
degeneration eventually leading to his susceptibility to the lure of
Voldemort. 

Personally, I see it as a literary device used to develop the characters.
In PoA, Hermione is estranged from the gang; we see how interaction between
Harry and Ron is different in the absence of Hermione, how miserable she
is, and the various tensions to which she serves as a focus. In GoF, Ron is
the one who separates from the group, and in so doing, we see how important
he is to both Harry and Hermione through the surfacing of different
conflicts in which Ron is now the central figure. Perhaps we will see in a
later book a situation where Harry is one who distances himself from the
group?

Just a random thought ... needed to get it off my mind before I can focus
on my reading assignment =(

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Apr 15 05:32:14 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:32:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's estrangement in a later book?
References: <3.0.2.32.20010415011520.006d0ec0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3AD9325E.75B7BCAD@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16797



Samaporn Teeravechyan wrote:

> In PoA, Hermione is estranged from the gang; we see how interaction between
> Harry and Ron is different in the absence of Hermione, how miserable she
> is, and the various tensions to which she serves as a focus. In GoF, Ron is
> the one who separates from the group, and in so doing, we see how important
> he is to both Harry and Hermione through the surfacing of different
> conflicts in which Ron is now the central figure. Perhaps we will see in a
> later book a situation where Harry is one who distances himself from the
> group?

That's exactly as I see it, actually. We get to know the characters more personally. As well, it shows Rons feelings in a different light. We see how Harrys popularity (as well as that of his brothers) makes Ron feel. I kinda feel for the guy
in GoF. Just mho.

Jamieson

--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 08:52:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:52:18 -0000
Subject: Redemption of Draco/Lucius - Evil Hermione - Primary School - Fleur -  House Elves - More
In-Reply-To: <3AD8DC3C.9BF1A883@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9bbng2+efd9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16798

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Neil, in my theory, Harry wouldn't have realised that he had enough
> money to buy a house, or that it would be possible to buy a house 
while
> under-age, and no one else would advise him to buy a house to get 
away
> from the Dursleys, because Dumbledore said that Harry had to stay 
with
> the Dursleys for his safety in order to be protected by 'ancient 
magic'.

I have always wondered - does he need to buy a house?  What happened 
to Godric's Hollow when the Potters were killed?  Was it destroyed?  
Or is it waiting there for Harry to inhabit when he is old enough and 
Dumbledore has stopped making go back to the Dursleys' home?

Catherine

I also thought that Harry doesn't have any clear idea how much money 
he has, which is one of the reasons he is being relatively careful 
with it.






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 00:34:28 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:34:28 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] An Unexpected DADA
Message-ID: <LAW2-F37TljBOh8s4KW00002d18@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16799

jenny wrote:
>I just had a thought...  Perhaps Dumbledore will actually give Snape
>the job of professor of DADA. <snip Snape's qualifications>
>
>Any thoughts?

Oh no!  Just when Neville was doing so well! *vbg*
Perhaps I've said enough about Snape's teaching skills for a while...:)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 08:57:34 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:57:34 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg - witch, squib, portal guardian, kneazle keeper, none of the above?
In-Reply-To: <9bap6k+2gvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bbnpu+c4gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16800

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> BTW, Mundungus Fletcher was also mentioned as part of the old 
crowd.  
> I'm very interested to meet the person who tried to get one over on 
> the MOM after the World Cup.  I know he was mentioned earlier, but 
> can't remember where.  I'll go look!
> 
> This is one hell of an old crowd,

Mundungus Fletcher first appears in CoS:
Harry is staying at the Burrow, when Arthur Weasley arrives home from 
work:
"Nine raids.  Nine!  And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on 
me when I had my back turned..."

"Old" Mundungus Fletcher as well as an aged Mrs Figg/Arabella Figg.  
It seems that the old crowd are at least older than the Weasley 
parents, so are clearly not contemporaries of Lupin, Sirius et al.  
I wonder what their connection with Dumbledore/orginal roles were?

Catherine




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 09:15:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:15:47 +0100
Subject: ADMIN/X-POST: Update on scheduled weekly discussions...
Message-ID: <015701c0c58c$bdf02860$a93570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16801

Hi everyone,

Here's the latest on our weekly discussion schedules: -


IT'S HARRY FORTNIGHT UNTIL 29TH APRIL!!

Firstly, a reminder that from Monday it's 'Harry Fortnight' on HPfGU!
Joywitch will be posting a sketch on Harry Potter to lead off the
discussions, so look out for that.  The Harry discussions will be the last
from our GoF/HP characters schedule.


NEW DISCUSSIONS

From, 30 April, we'll be diving into a completely new schedule, starting
with the opening chapters of Prisoner of Azkaban and working our way through
the first three books. Alongside these, we'll cover some other essay-style
topics based on the HP books.

I've posted an updated schedule table to the Files section of the main list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/

This includes the names of some people who have volunteered to write
lead-off summaries already (one or two of these are subject to
confirmation).

It would be great to get volunteers in place for the following, if anyone is
interested:

Sketches:

7-13 May - Rita Skeeter & The Daily Prophet
11-17 Jun - Hogsmeade Village, tradespeople and area
25 Jun - 8 Jul - The Marauders' Era (discussion to run for two weeks)

Chapters:

25 Jun-1 Jul - PoA Chapters 16 & 17

For the newer people here, lead-off summaries are usually posted on Mondays
(occasionally they come in - ahem - a little late).  The style and content
is left to the author, but chapter summaries should pick up on the main plot
points and pose a few questions at the end to get the cogs whirring, whilst
topic sketches should provide an overview of the topic, again with a few
questions at the end.  Some people write quite long essays and others are
more concise; there is no hard and fast rule - the summaries are intended to
refresh our memories for the discussion ahead.

Anyone on the list is welcome to volunteer for summary duties, so don't be
shy!  We're concentrating on filling the next few weeks at the moment, but
there are plenty of opportunities coming up.  You can volunteer for both
summaries in a week or for chapter/sketch only.

I should stress that these scheduled discussions are meant to run alongside
any ongoing discussions.  Please feel free to discuss whatever you like,
whenever you like, within the HP world (and within reason <g>).

Please e-mail me at neilward at dircon.co.uk with any questions.

Magically,

Neil

________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 10:44:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:44:33 -0000
Subject: Changing money - French - Hermione/Ron neuroses
Message-ID: <9bbu2h+f3sp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16802

Samaporn wrote:

>First of all, it's not Muggle money, so he probably couldn't buy a 
house.

He could buy it with wizarding money.  

This makes me think of something else, though.  Drat, I just read 
somewhere a line to the effect that Harry had plenty of money in the 
wizarding world, but no Muggle money.  It could have been anywhere in 
1, 2, or 3 . . . should've stickied it when it caught my eye.

My question is, can't he change money?  The Grangers get wizard money 
for their pounds.  If the whole thing has to be kept secret from most 
Muggles, then I can see that Gringott's doesn't have a lot of Muggle 
money to distribute; perhaps it can only give out as much as it takes 
in.  Though it might have ties to Muggle banks, the way the Minister 
has ties to the Muggle PM.  Gold, after all, has currency everywhere.

But even if one can't change enough money to buy a house in Muggle 
currency, Harry should be able to get himself some Muggle pocket 
money.  It's been noted that somewhere along the line he acquires a 
watch; he has one by CoS (ch 12--it cuts into his wrist when he 
becomes Goyle) though he doesn't in PS/SS (ch 2).  He could, of 
course, have bought it with wizard money.

Following that tangent:  A lot of fanfics assume that regular watches 
and clocks are Muggle items, and even that witches and wizards don't 
use them.  I have never understood this.  The Weasleys have a couple 
of unMuggle clocks, and Dumbledore has his unMuggle watch, but 
Hogwarts does operate on your standard 24 hour clock, with students 
knowing "it's 2 o'clock, time for Potions," etc.  Harry has his watch 
to tell him when the Polyjuice Potion will run out.  Whence this idea 
that the magical world doesn't keep time?

Rambling...sorry.  Back to my point:  if you have plenty of wizard 
money, don't you then have access through exchange to plenty of Muggle 
money?

Morag wrote:
>  But why rename Tom Riddle, since Voldemort is a
> French-derived name, anyway?

Rita wrote:

>Because it has to anagram 'Je suis' rather than 'I am'?

Yup, Tom Elvis Jedusor is an anagram for "Je suis Voldemort."  Elvis! 
 I love it!

Demelza wrote:

>Well, we agree that that there is no evidence to support Hermione's 
>assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention he
>garner. Therefore, Hermione's assessment was incorrect.

Whoa!  That doesn't compute.  I'm trying to follow the logic:
    (1) There is no evidence to support the assertion that Demelza 
likes cats.
    (2) Demelza's best friend says Demelza likes cats.
    (3) Therefore, Demelza's best friend's assessment is incorrect.

Why wouldn't I take point 2 as evidence that Demelza likes 
cats--unless I was already inclined to mistrust the friend's 
perceptions? <g>

There are lots of assertions in the books that have no particular 
evidence, but that I still believe.  To doubt Hermione, I would 
need evidence that Ron =isn't= jealous, or evidence that her judgment 
is suspect in general.  I don't see evidence for either of these 
things.

For my part, Exhibit A supporting the idea that Ron is sometimes 
jealous of Harry is the fact that Hermione, who knows him better than 
we do, perceives that he is.  I think she is very insightful about 
people in general, and she knows Ron well; if she sees signs of 
jealousy, I reckon they're probably there.

There is supportive evidence after the fact.  "In tribute to their 
recently repaired friendship, Ron kept the bitterness in his voice to 
a minimum" (GoF, may be inaccurate quote; it's from memory).  That 
implies that he has had bitterness in his voice before, even though it 
was never commented on.

There are also stray comments like Ron enjoying being the center of 
attention for a change when Sirius "attacks."  "For the first time in 
his life, people were paying more attention to him than to Harry, and 
it was clear that Ron was rather enjoying the experience" (PoA 14).  
We know that it is Harry who people point to in the corridors--"Next 
to the tall kid with the red hair" (PS/SS 8), which supports 
Hermione's sense that when people see Ron and Harry, it's Harry who 
occupies their attention.  And, of course, we know that he sometimes 
longs to be free of the comparisons and second-best status that come 
with being 6th in a large family.  =These things don't prove Ron is 
jealous,= but they lay the kind of groundwork that makes me as a 
reader, when I hear from Hermione that he's jealous, say, "Yeah, I can 
see why he would be."

Did I write all this once already?  Brain cells starting to degrade...

Re: diagnosing Hermione or anyone else:  there's a good reason you 
have to meet several criteria in order to get any DSM-IV diagnosis:  
we =all= display various behaviors such as overwork, sadness, fear of 
social situations.  They don't translate automatically into OCD, 
depression, and anxiety disorders, respectively.  I think we could 
just as easily diagnose Harry as having some kind of mania because 
he's reckless.  By your criteria, everyone who puts a lot of emphasis 
on academics as their measure of personal success is potentially in 
danger of OCD.  Okay, but at that point the danger is so 
widespread as to be meaningless, IMO.  There is a wide range of normal 
behavior.  Nor does being a bit inflexible about =one= social issue 
equal being "over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about 
matters of morality, ethics, or values," especially at the 
developmental stage Hermione is at; there's also a good reason why DSM 
categories are for adults.  It is normal for an adolescent who is just 
discovering social injustice to take a stance that according to adult 
standards is extreme.

You fence your views around with lots of "potentials" and "possiblys," 
but you rely on the view that Hermione is currently pathological in 
order to say that Ron isn't jealous.  I still don't see any motive for 
her to be lying (yes, she has reasons to be ticked at Ron, but why 
would this make her say he's jealous?  I just don't get it), nor any 
reason to think that she is way off base.  

In my self-claimed role of third party, I will add that I think Penny 
is pathologizing Ron too.  Doesn't do anything to attain his 
ambitions, etc.  ??  What ambitions should he have, and how should he 
be working towards them?  He's 14 years old and his ambitions in life 
are to do satisfactorily in school, not be poor anymore, not join the 
Dark Side, be a good friend, and save his best friend from periodic 
attacks on his life.  What should he be doing to attain these things 
other than what we see him doing?

Amy Z
who got up at 5 a.m. to put the finishing touches on her work--got a 
problem with that?  <g>




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sun Apr 15 10:57:22 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:57:22 -0000
Subject: French versions
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F82IEAOeIiGXix0000729a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bbuqi+h468@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16803

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Anne (A B) wrote:
Of course Tom
> >Riddle had to be renamed so the anagram works out. In
> >French he's Tom Elvis(!) Jedusor. 
> 
> Yeah, I'd love to see "muggle", and "squib".  And what about Ron's, 
er, 
> astronomical joke?  Do share, if the librarian is not close kin to 
Madam 
> Pince!  But why rename Tom Riddle, since Voldemort is a French-
derived name, 
> anyway?
> 

Hello!

I've got Prisoner of Azkaban in French and it's great fun, I agree 
with Anne! I haven't read CoS in French, but I imagine the 
change is so that:

Tom Elvis Jedusor = Je suis Voldemort

Muggle is "moldu" in French, but I don't know what Squib is, perhaps 
Anne could enlighten us? 

As for the astronomical joke, I haven't read GoF in French yet, but 
my parents are going on holiday to France (leaving today) and are 
getting it for me, so may be able to let you know in a couple of 
weeks.

--- Amy Z <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Uh-oh, next thing you know I'll be ordering the
> French versions.  My 
> obsession rating would skyrocket to dangerous
> levels.  But it would be 
> a good way to brush up on my long-neglected French,
> wouldn't it?  
> (Someone please say "yes" and hand me an excuse.)
> 

A resounding "yes" to that - I'm brushing up long-neglected words. So 
it's very educational ;-) !!

Gaynor




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 11:20:47 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:20:47 -0000
Subject: Home!
Message-ID: <9bc06f+pnv3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16804

Has anyone else noted this?

In QA the creator of the golden snitch (i forget his name) lived in 
GODRICS HOLLOW!!! Do you think he knew Harry's grandparents? I'll 
check again, maybe it was before the Potters time...

claire :)




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Apr 15 11:43:37 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:43:37 -0000
Subject: Home!
In-Reply-To: <9bc06f+pnv3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bc1h9+u7cp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16805

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> Has anyone else noted this?
> 
> In QA the creator of the golden snitch (i forget his name) lived in 
> GODRICS HOLLOW!!! Do you think he knew Harry's grandparents? I'll 
> check again, maybe it was before the Potters time...
> 
> claire :)


His name was Bowman Wright.  Unfortunately, Mr Whisp doesn't give us 
a year for the Snitch's invention.  I say it was probably sometime in 
the 14th or 15th century, though.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 12:02:38 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An Unexpected DADA (Why Dumbledore doesn't let Snape teach DADA)
In-Reply-To: <9bar4v+k305@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010415120238.18266.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16806

> Snape is a recovering Death Eater, and, like other recovering
> people, he will never be recovered fully.  Would you give a 
> recovering alcoholic the keys to the liquor storeroom?  It's not a 
> quesiton of trust.  


I think it might be a matter of Snape not knowing his own strength
when it comes to teaching things like DADA.  He could easily blast a
student through a wall while demonstrating a lesson.  I can't imagine
him using spiders as teaching tools, for instance.

But on the whole I lean to the
he-doesn't-really-want-the-job-student-urban-legend theory.

Incidentally, re the Dumbledore trust issue, in GoF when Filch, Snape
and Moody meet on the stairs where Harry's trapped and Snape accuses
Moody of searching his office, Moody casually claims it as his
privilege as an Auror.  Snape insists that he doesn't believe that
Dumbledore gave Moody permission for the search but isn't it
interesting that he doesn't immediately stomp off to Dumbledore with
a complaint? (I know it's the middle of the night but Moody conducted
his search earlier.)  It's as if Snape doesn't really quite believe
it himself that DUmbledore trusts him. 

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 12:27:41 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F1049FopYC98Bi000073ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010415122741.91957.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16807

> It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did
> Voldemort need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? 
> Why couldn't Moody turn a door knob or one of Harry's books 
> into a port key? Surely in the course of a year he could get 
> Harry to touch something. 

GoF bugs me in a way that none of the earlier books did and it's
because the darn plot just sprawls all over the place.  I just
couldn't swallow a TWT that lasted the duration of the school year.  

And I especially agree with the above questions.

One possible answer might be that - from Lord V's POV - it would be
so much more dramatic and shocking if he killed Harry under
Dumbledore's nose after Dumbledore has set up this wonderful
tournament to promote international wizardly co-operation.  "Think
you can stop me?  Ha!" sort of thing.


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From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Apr 15 12:29:07 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:29:07 -0000
Subject: Sirius - Has anyone noted this?
In-Reply-To: <9bb5bb+isjm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bc46j+hslb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16808

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
[snip]
> An increasing number of people now know the secret:
> The trustworthy ones: the Trio, Dumbledore, Lupin.  
> The questionable one: Snape - although since Dumbledore has 
pointedly 
> remarked that he and Sirius are now on the same side I don't think 
> that Snape will betray this particular secret.
> The unknown: Molly Weasley - and I bet she'll tell Arthur.  Plus,  
> she'll probably also want to know how and why her youngest son 
seems 
> to be on good terms with an escaped murderer.


Which begs the question (almost by the way) -- how did Ron explain 
suddenly ending up with the owl soon to be known as Pigwidgeon?  As 
book 4 begins, Harry and company are still scurrying off to be alone 
and speak softly about Sirius, so Molly doesn't yet know.

As for Molly wanting to know how and why Ron is on good terms with 
Sirius -- I daresay that if Dumbledore says the man is innocent, 
that's good enough for her, especially since Sirius is quite 
obviously Against The Big V. 

Maybe the Weasleys knew all along because Dumbledore had to send an 
owl to them explaining how Ron's leg got broken? 

I'm guessing. 

Indigo





From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Apr 15 12:51:43 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:51:43 -0000
Subject: Home!
In-Reply-To: <9bc1h9+u7cp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bc5gv+1v69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16809


> His name was Bowman Wright.  Unfortunately, Mr Whisp doesn't give 
us 
> a year for the Snitch's invention.  I say it was probably sometime 
in 
> the 14th or 15th century, though.  

It was most likely in the mid-1300s. Unfortunately, we don't have an 
exact date, as you mentioned, but it was at the same time or 
relatively near after the time of the "enlightened" Elfrida Clegg, 
who put the Golden Snidget a protected species, and she was Chief of 
the Wizards' Council about a century after 1269, when the first 
Golden Snidget was released at a "Cuaditch" match. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about Godric's Hollow
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 12:53:31 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:53:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F82IEAOeIiGXix0000729a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010415125331.26264.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16810


--- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I'd love to see "muggle", and "squib".  And
> what about Ron's, er, 
> astronomical joke?  Do share, if the librarian is
> not close kin to Madam 
> Pince!  But why rename Tom Riddle, since Voldemort
> is a French-derived name, 
> anyway?
> 
Going on memory, muggle was moldu. I don't remember
what squib was. Yeah, Ron's joke would be tough to
translate... Haven't seen the French version of GoF.
The problem isn't the librarian, since our school
library is run by volunteers (and I am one), but
trying to get your hands on the books. They're
permanently signed out, despite the library having two
copies of each book, and seemingly most of the kids
having their own copies. Frankly I'm surprised my
daughter found one in the library. We have the English
versions here at home, but I might just have to borrow
the French versions from my brother-in-law and look
some more of this up...

As Rita pointed out, Voldemort's name itself isn't the
problem. The anagram works out to "je suis Voldemort".

Anne


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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 13:17:13 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:17:13 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Changing money - French - Hermione/Ron neuroses
Message-ID: <LAW2-F130UzmRf6Ci6n00007b40@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16811

Amy Z wrote:

>
>There is supportive evidence after the fact.  "In tribute to their
>recently repaired friendship, Ron kept the bitterness in his voice to
>a minimum" (GoF, may be inaccurate quote; it's from memory).  That
>implies that he has had bitterness in his voice before, even though it
>was never commented on.

My only quibble with a soundly-reasoned posting: to me, it simply implies he 
*could* have sounded more bitter on that occasion, had he not troubled to 
keep it to a minimum.  Thank you (and others) for bringing me up to speed on 
the French Voldemort pun - does this imply that Riddle's grandfather was 
called *Elvis* in the the French version???!!
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 13:20:11 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:20:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's estrangement in a later book?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010415011520.006d0ec0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9bc76b+103h3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16812


> In PoA, Hermione is estranged from the gang; we see how interaction 
between Harry and Ron is different in the absence of Hermione, how 
miserable she is, and the various tensions to which she serves as a 
focus. In GoF, Ron is the one who separates from the group, and in so 
doing, we see how important he is to both Harry and Hermione through 
the surfacing of different conflicts in which Ron is now the central 
figure. Perhaps we will see in a later book a situation where Harry is 
one who distances himself from the group?
> Just a random thought ... needed to get it off my mind before I can 
focus on my reading assignment =(>
> 
> Samaporn

I definitely also see a scenario where Harry will be distanced from 
both Ron and Hermione, but I don't know that it will be his choice.  
As a staunch R/H shipper, I see Ron and Hermione choosing to spend 
more time together without Harry, which will make him feel very left 
out and probably quite vulnerable as well.

I also keep remembering when Dumbledore told his students to be aware 
of what is right over what is easy - JKR said in a magazine interview 
that that is a theme she'll be focusing on quite a lot from now on.  I 
think the trio will be very much affected (their friendship will be 
tested yet again) by this.

--jenny f




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 13:35:29 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:35:29 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
Message-ID: <9bc831+fc2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16813

I was just thinking about Harry Potter (what a shock) and got to 
wondering about Dumbledore's days as the Transfiguration Professor 
(which we learned in CoS, if I'm not mistaken).  Does that mean that 
he is also an animagus?  McGonagall is one, and JKR has made it pretty 
clear that each professor at Hogwarts is damned good at the topics 
they teach.  Wouldn't that mean that Dumbledore would also know how to 
Transfigure himself? 

I also remember Dumbledore telling Harry (in SS) that he doesn't need 
an invisibility cloak to become invisible.  I know the character 
sketch on Dumby-dorr was posted a few weeks ago, but the "Dumbledore 
to die!?" postings kept me thinking.  If he is the only wizard 
Voldemort fears, what are some of the powers he possesses that make 
him so strong?  I still feel like we know very little about him.

Any thoughts?  

--jenny from ravenclaw, who doesn't want all the oldies to moan and 
say "we've discussed this a hundred tim




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 13:38:13 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:38:13 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <9b9l54+b89a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bc885+d7e5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16814

The duelling club scene was right after Harry blew up Snape's 
classroom.  Harry said that Snape knew it was him and would find 
some 'foul' way to get him.  It's entirely possible and in character 
for Snape to accidentally let the whole school knows that Harry is a 
Parseltongue. (like Lupin's condition -- see the pattern emerging?)  

Of course, it could well be a coincidence -- JKR has to put the 
discovery in somewhere.  But since it's JKR, I doubt it.

The question (if Snape knew beforehand): How did Snape know Harry is 
a Parselmouth?  Did Dumbledore told him or is it something else?

The question (if Snape didn't knew): Given the amount of time he 
spent with the other parselmouth, wouldn't he be at least slightly 
pale or surprised at the discovery of another one?

Also notice how expelliarum has fast-becoming the all-purpose, all 
occassion spell for Harry?  Attack by a giant spider or an evil dark 
lord or a phantom from a diary or a half-wit DADA professor or an 
unbalanced Potions Master? Expelliarum!  Expelliarum!
My question is: Why did JKR get Snape to teach Harry the most useful 
spell in the book?  Is it significant that Harry is unusually good at 
the disarming spell?  Is a cigar just a cigar?




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 14:26:33 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <9bc885+d7e5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010415142633.98170.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16815

--- MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:
> The duelling club scene was right after Harry blew up Snape's 
> classroom.  Harry said that Snape knew it was him and would find 
> some 'foul' way to get him.  It's entirely possible and in
> character for Snape to accidentally let the whole school knows that

> Harry is a Parseltongue. 

Snape didn't know Harry was a Parseltongue because when the snake
appeared he told Harry not to move and he (Snape) would get rid of
it.  He would have stood back and waited silently with arms folded.

I think he thought it would be fun to use the Slytherin symbol to
terrify Harry in front of his friends; as someone else said, most
people are icky about snakes and this was a big one.

 
> The question (if Snape didn't knew): Given the amount of time he 
> spent with the other parselmouth, wouldn't he be at least slightly 
> pale or surprised at the discovery of another one?

It's a rare condition but not completely unheard-of.  Considering the
Great Slytherin Mythology, Snape would have to wonder if there's more
to Harry than is apparent superficially.




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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 14:42:46 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:42:46 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <9bc831+fc2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcc16+6jnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16816

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I was just thinking about Harry Potter (what a shock) and got to 
> wondering about Dumbledore's days as the Transfiguration Professor 
> (which we learned in CoS, if I'm not mistaken).  Does that mean 
that 
> he is also an animagus?  McGonagall is one, and JKR has made it 
pretty 
> clear that each professor at Hogwarts is damned good at the topics 
> they teach.  Wouldn't that mean that Dumbledore would also know how 
to 
> Transfigure himself? 
> 
> I also remember Dumbledore telling Harry (in SS) that he doesn't 
need 
> an invisibility cloak to become invisible.  I know the character 
> sketch on Dumby-dorr was posted a few weeks ago, but 
the "Dumbledore 
> to die!?" postings kept me thinking.  If he is the only wizard 
> Voldemort fears, what are some of the powers he possesses that make 
> him so strong?  I still feel like we know very little about him.
> 
> Any thoughts?  
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who doesn't want all the oldies to moan and 
> say "we've discussed this a hundred tim

I have thought about this before, and came to the conclusion that 
Hermione would probably have seen his name on the Animagus register 
if he was one.  However, this doesn't rule out the possibility that 
Dumbledore could be exempt for some reason, or for reasons of his own 
(spying in WW2 for example) decided to keep it to himself.  I don't 
know.

Catherine




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 15:11:04 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:11:04 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dumbledore Speculation
References: <9bc831+fc2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007701c0c5be$4ad36540$f43570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16817

Jenny said:

<<I was just thinking about Harry Potter (what a shock) and got to wondering
about Dumbledore's days as the Transfiguration Professor (which we learned
in CoS, if I'm not mistaken).  Does that mean that he is also an animagus?
<snip> I also remember Dumbledore telling Harry (in SS) that he doesn't need
an invisibility cloak to become invisible.  Any thoughts?

--jenny from ravenclaw, who doesn't want all the oldies to moan and say
"we've discussed this a hundred tim>>


We've discussed this a hundred tim... only kidding!

Milz raised this a while back, and I had this theory that Dumbledore was a
bee animagus, because Dumbledore is an old English word meaning bumblebee
(according to JKR).  I thought that, maybe, in that scene in the room with
the Mirror of Erised, Dumbledore wasn't actually invisible when Harry
entered the room, but the next best thing - very, very small.  Harry had
apparently walked past Dumbledore to get into the room, and Dumbledore makes
a comment about being invisible making Harry "near-sighted".

At the time, Nick Mitchell also quoted the following, from PS/SS - Chapter
1:  "A man appeared on the corner the cat had been watching, appeared so
suddenly and silently you'd have thought he'd just popped out of the
ground."  Apparation or transifiguration from something very tiny?

We could argue that Hermione would have spotted Dumbledore's name among the
registered animagi (as Catherine just noted), but perhaps Dumbledore was
registered in a much earlier time (i.e. listed on an earlier page of the
Register), or perhaps - shock! - he's unregistered.  Milz suggested that
this might explain why he was so calm about Sirius being an unregistered
animagus.

Like you, I think any self-respecting Transfiguration teacher would want to
be able to demonstrate the ultimate transfiguration skill to their students.
It's also intriguing to consider the possibility that Dumbledore's magical
abilities may go beyond those of a normal wizard and enable him to transform
into any animal form at will - a sort of beranimagus!

Neil, who wishes Jenny wouldn't make him feel so ancient...
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 15:30:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:30:43 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation-Transfiguration foreshadowed
In-Reply-To: <9bc831+fc2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcer3+eq9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16818

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I was just thinking about Harry Potter (what a shock) and got to 
> wondering about Dumbledore's days as the Transfiguration Professor 
> (which we learned in CoS, if I'm not mistaken).  Does that mean that 
> he is also an animagus?  McGonagall is one, and JKR has made it 
pretty 
> clear that each professor at Hogwarts is damned good at the topics 
> they teach.  Wouldn't that mean that Dumbledore would also know how 
to 
> Transfigure himself? 
> 
> I also remember Dumbledore telling Harry (in SS) that he doesn't 
need 
> an invisibility cloak to become invisible.  I know the character 
> sketch on Dumby-dorr was posted a few weeks ago, but the "Dumbledore 
> to die!?" postings kept me thinking.  If he is the only wizard 
> Voldemort fears, what are some of the powers he possesses that make 
> him so strong?  I still feel like we know very little about him.
> 
> Any thoughts?

Didn't Mr. Ollivander reminisce about James Potter's wand, saying that 
it was "good for transfiguration".  I didn't realize it while reading 
it but this may have been one of JKR's foreshadowings. 

Haggridd 
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who doesn't want all the oldies to moan and 
> say "we've discussed this a hundred tim




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 15:37:39 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:37:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <007701c0c5be$4ad36540$f43570c2@c5s910j>
References: <9bc831+fc2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010415113739.0077d05c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16819

At 04:11 PM 4/15/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Jenny said:
>
><<I was just thinking about Harry Potter (what a shock) and got to wondering
>about Dumbledore's days as the Transfiguration Professor (which we learned
>in CoS, if I'm not mistaken).  Does that mean that he is also an animagus?
><snip> I also remember Dumbledore telling Harry (in SS) that he doesn't need
>an invisibility cloak to become invisible.  Any thoughts?>>

>We could argue that Hermione would have spotted Dumbledore's name among the
>registered animagi (as Catherine just noted), but perhaps Dumbledore was
>registered in a much earlier time (i.e. listed on an earlier page of the
>Register), or perhaps - shock! - he's unregistered. 

Perhaps she did see it and never bothered to mention it. But to support
your suggestion that Dumbledore was registered earlier, Hermione mentions
that there were seven registered animagi -this century-. I think it's
entirely possible that he was registered in the last century, and therefore
wasn't on the list Hermione was looking at.

>Milz raised this a while back, and I had this theory that Dumbledore was a
>bee animagus, because Dumbledore is an old English word meaning bumblebee
>(according to JKR). 

That certainly is an interesting suggestion. But I'm hoping for a more
powerful/flamboyant, if any, transfiguration form for Dumbledore; maybe a
phoenix or something. The bee form is a neat explanation for Dumbledore's
'invisibility', but that sort of implies that Dumbledore decided to
spy/check up on Harry. Not that it's not possible, but I favour the idea
that Dumbledore was already in the room before Harry entered, on both
occasions, and that he and Ron somehow failed to notice that he was there.
Maybe he was just in the shadows and kept very, very still ... ? That's
just a random thought, since I don't have the book to back me up.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 15 15:42:04 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:42:04 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <20010415125331.26264.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bcfgc+b8rk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16820

Just to note that in the database area of this group there's a French 
translation file which gives the different names for various things.  
I've not checked yet as to how comprehensive it is, but when I've 
finished book 1 I will try and remember to.

I'd recommend the french versions for anyone wanting to brush up on 
the language - That's exactly why I got my copy last week on holiday. 
The largest deviation I've run into so far is when Harry asks Ron what 
prefects are and gets a short explanation.  Otherwise its just a word 
change here and there.

One that made me laugh was when Snape (Rogue) wonders if they'll be as 
big a bunch of cornichons (translates as ghekins not dunderheads) as 
usual - it reminded me of all the jars of pickled things in his office 
- Is that how he thinks of them all?

Florence




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr 15 15:57:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:57:29 -0500
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
References: <9bav1j+qc5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD9C4E9.8A062F11@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16821

Hi --

Yes .... I'm *still* pregnant.  <g>  She's clearly going to be late ...

Demelza wrote:

> Well, we agree that that there is no evidence to support Hermione's
> assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention he
> garner. Therefore, Hermione's assessment was incorrect.

Nope.  Amy Z pointed out the fallacy of your logic.  You've skipped some
steps logic-wise in reaching your conclusion.  Amy also pointed out that
one must assume that Hermione is not to be trusted or have solid
evidence that Ron *isn't* jealous in order to reach your conclusion.
The idea that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame is not jarring to most
readers it would seem.  I, of course, being a huge Hermione fan do agree
with Amy that Hermione is in general a good judge of people and is very
perceptive.  So, like Amy, if Hermione says Ron is jealous, then I tend
to believe her.  As I've argued before, Harry also believes her.

Amy Z also said:

> There is supportive evidence after the fact.  "In tribute to their
> recently repaired friendship, Ron kept the bitterness in his voice to
> a minimum" (GoF, may be inaccurate quote; it's from memory).  That
> implies that he has had bitterness in his voice before, even though it
> was never commented on.
>
Good point Amy.  I also like the other evidence that you were able to
cite.  Demelza has in the past discounted evidence that occurs *after* a
scene in question.  In anticipation of that argument, I will comment
that authors don't always map out *everything* in great detail and
proceed straight through from chapter 1 to chapter 37 without ever
moving forwards or backwards.  I really don't think JKR has details such
as you suggest mapped out that explicitly.  I think she has an outline
and she knows in general where she's going.  I think she has a good
handle on each character.  She has alot of extraneous material about the
wizarding world, and she's revealing it bit by bit.  But, she's said,
for example, that there will be loads of details that never make it into
the books because there simply isn't space to cover it.  I don't think
she evaluates each scene and thinks back to herself, "Is this all
supported by things I've written in previous books or chapters?"  It's a
creative, evolving process.  The editing process can also affect
things.  JKR might well have inserted other clues about Ron's jealousy
that were prior to the scene in question, but they might have been small
details that didn't survive the editing process.  She also might not
have noticed that they *didn't* survive the editing process.

Point is: I still believe that Demelza's analysis is entirely too
scientific to be applied to literature.  I think you're trying to
interject too much *objectivity* to what is inherently a very
*subjective* subject, Demelza.  I'd be interested to know if other
former or current English lit majors agree with me.  I'm a lawyer, and
so I'm familiar with logical analysis.  But, the rigid application of
not only logic but scientific principles to literary analysis .... well,
I don't really see that it applies all that well.  But then, maybe it's
just that I don't agree with the logical conclusions that Demelza has
reached.  I see no reason to doubt Hermione's assessment of Ron's
jealousy, and I don't require that JKR have provided me with specific
unambiguous examples of it *prior* to the GoF fight scene.  She's given
me enough other groundwork as Amy calls it to make it believable.

> We know from Ron's mirror of Erised experience, that his
> heart's desire (as of PS/SS) was to be Quidditch Team Captain and to
> be Head Boy---like _Charlie and Bill_. It's not really fair to Ron for
>
> us to interpret his desires to be like his _brothers_, as 'jealousy of
>
> _Harry_"

Dumbledore didn't interpret Ron's Mirror of Erised desires in that way
and neither did I.  He says, "Your friend Ron, who has always been
overshadowed by his brothers, sees himself standing alone, the best of
them all" (loose paraphrase probably).  He doesn't want to be *like* his
brothers; he wants to be *better than* his brothers.  He wants to be
Head Boy like Bill AND Quidditch Captain like Charlie.  He doesn't want
to just excel at the same level that they did -- he wants to be
*everything* and significantly, all alone: the center of attention.  Who
do we know in the books who often is just that: the center of
attention?  Harry!  I don't fault Ron for being jealous -- he's got alot
to contend with.  He obviously already had some self-esteem problems
with trying to live up to his brothers before he ever even met Harry.
Having his best friend turn out to be the most famous wizard in the
world can't help but affect Ron's already fragile ego IMO.

> Because I'm not a shipper of any kind, I would have to disagree. I
> don't think Hermione spends much time with anyone outside of Harry
> and Ron.

Shipper or no, you're making a fairly broad assumption there.  It's
unsupported by evidence.  You've argued that we have no evidence that
Ron feels jealousy about Harry's fame prior to the fight scene.  To use
your same logical analysis, I would want some evidence for your
assertion that Hermione doesn't spend time with anyone outside of Harry
and Ron.  When she's "off-screen," we can't know where she is or what
she's doing.  Evidence that Harry & Ron observe her studying alone on
various occasions when they are estranged from her in the PoA fight is
not solid evidence that she unequivocally doesn't have any other friends
or other activities to occupy her time.

> Likewise, you can't possibly argue that Hermione is truthfully
> reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We aren't privy to
> her thought process. In order to objectively determine her veracity,
> you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, especially those
> concerning Ron. In cluding, Hermione's giggling at Ron's revelation
> of arachnophobia. Her insensitivity towards Ron's concerns that his
> pet rat is being targeted by her pet cat. Ron's ability at chess.
> PS/SS specifically states that Hermione wasn't good at it, nearly the
> same way she wasn't good at Divination.

Um .... what do Ron's chess-playing skills (and Hermione's lack thereof)
have to do with Hermione's veracity?  Puzzled .... (equally puzzled by
the reference that she isn't good at Divination).  :::shakes head:::
Sorry but I have *no* idea how either of these facts have any bearing on
whether Hermione is in general a truthful character or a pathological
liar.

> Furthermore, does Hermione have an 'axe to grind with Ron'? You bet
> she does! Less than a year before, Harry took Ron's side during their
> estrangement. In light of this pattern, she does have a motive.

A motive to do what?  Like Amy, I don't see that telling Harry that Ron
is jealous of his fame accomplishes anything in particular for
Hermione.  Unless you're arguing that she *wanted* to be sure Harry
wouldn't try to make up with Ron, that he would prolong the fight they'd
had.  Even this staunch H/H'er won't buy that.  There's evidence that
she went back & forth between the two of them at least occasionally (as
the R/H'ers have pointed out on numerous occasions).

> My point is Hermione's personality isn't all that 'black & white'.

I don't think her personality is "black & white."  But, I still don't
see why you think she'd lie about Ron being jealous of Harry's fame.
What exactly would her objective have been?

> Again, if this excessive devotion to work and productivity interferes
> with her daily functioning, as the diagnostic criteria states, then
> it is will be more definitive. But as I wrote above, you cannot
> discount the presence of the behavior.

Actually, yes I do discount the presence of the behavior.  I have yet to
see evidence that her preoccupation with details, rules, organization,
etc. reaches a level that the "major point of the activity is lost."
She uses study schedules & organization, but the major point of the
activity is not lost.  It is achieved and with great success.
Similarly, I don't see evidence that she is devoted to studying to the
exclusion of leisure and friendships.  There was a period in PoA when
she might have thrown herself into studying as an escape (although we
don't know for sure that she didn't have any other friendships or
leisure activities during this time), but in general, her friendship
with Ron & Harry comes first.

> Well, if that's the favored argument, then it
> can be applied to virtually everything written by J. K. Rowling in the
>
> Potter series; that most of it is distorted because it's written from
> Harry's POV. I'm glad I don't write fiction. It must be terribly
> unsatisfying to learn your reading audience has so little regard for
> the way _you_ have choosen to represent _your_ characters.

I doubt JKR would take offense that readers bring different
interpretations to bear on her writing.  That's the point.  That's the
beauty of literary analysis.  I see things that you don't see, and the
converse holds true.  It's *not* scientific.  There is no *single* right
answer at the end of the day.  Harry's POV is a limiting factor ....
there are things that we can't know because JKR didn't take us inside
the heads of Hermione or Ron or Hagrid.  So, we can speculate.  But,
there is no objective right answer at the end of the day.  JKR wouldn't
read all of this and award the blue ribbon to any of our debates.

> First of all, these aren't _my_ definitions.

I know that, Demelza.  I just didn't phrase it correctly.  I should have
said, Hermione doesn't meet 4 of the 8 diagnostic criteria that you set
out in your message.  She doesn't meet *any* of them IMO.

> Again, as I wrote in my prior messages and have repeated here, once
> these
> criteria are met. That is, once these behaviors interfere with her
> daily functioning, she will have the 4 or more criteria for OCD as set
>
> by the American Psychiatric Association. Once again, I will repeat.
> That just because she cannot be diagnosed at this time, that does not
> erase the existence of the behaviors nor does it erase any mental
> health concern for them.

Except that I disagree that the behaviors are even present.  But,
whatever.  Sounds like we at least agree that Hermione doesn't have OCD
at this time.

> A third party might successfully argue I'm as determined to give
> Hermione a psychiatric diagnosis as you are in denial that she has
> the potential for one.

As you yourself have said, we all have the *potential* for one.  I just
don't believe that her behavior meets the diagnostic criteria that you
set out in your earlier message.  I don't agree with you that it's just
a matter of waiting until these behavioral traits manifest themselves to
a degree that they interfere with her "daily functioning."  I don't
think she arguably has a solid enough foundation for OCD at this point.
Maybe her preoccupation with rules & organization could escalate to a
degree that it interfered with the end objective: achieving high marks &
academic success.  In that case, she would have Behavior #1 on the APA
list.  Maybe she would eventually study to the exclusion of spending
time with Harry and/or Ron (or anyone else).  If a future books says,
"Hermione was now spending all her time studying.  She refused to have
anything to do with him or Ron.  Harry knew she wasn't spending any time
with the girls in her dormitory because Parvarti confirmed this.  etc."
-- then you would have some evidence of Behavior #3.  But, as of right
now, the evidence for Behaviors 1 & 3 is *not* there.  And, SPEW is a
weak link for Behavior #4.  "Rigidity & stubbornness" -- seems like you
need more than just that one trait (which can apply to alot of different
people who do not have OCD) to make a valid argument for OCD.

> And I might add that this fictitious third party probably won't ignore
> my constant use of the words 'potential', 'possible', 'probably' and
> won't ignore the times I've written that the behaviors must interfere
> with Hermione's activites of daily living(functioning) in order to be
> diagnosed with OCD.

As stated above, my point is that evidence for the underlying behaviors
is not there.  So, it's not just a matter of waiting for these behavior
patterns to escalate to the point that they interfere with daily
functioning.  The behaviors themselves have yet to manifest themselves.
IMO.

> Likewise I don't see Ron self-destructing either. What has puzzled me
> from reading the various critiques on Ron is that one set of desires
> is regarded as 'positive' (Hermione's desire for academic
> achievement) and another set is regarded as 'negative' (Ron's desire
> for financial stability and recognition).

I don't think the goals themselves are positive versus negative.  I just
put a positive spin on Hermione's methods for reaching her goals.  She
wants academic success, and she takes the steps to achieve it.  My
problem with Ron is not at all that his goals are inherently negative.
I just have the impression that he does little but moan about it.  I do
see your point & Amy's point that he can't do too much to achieve
financial success given his age, but maybe it's the "academic success is
the path to other success" mindset that I admittedly have.  I can't help
thinking "Get good grades; ensure your future."  That's just me
projecting my own bias on him though.  He could be financially
successful without ever cracking a book & I do know that.  In the end,
it's probably just that I identify with Hermione.  And, I don't identify
at all with Ron.

I also do think his ambitions & insecurities put him more at risk for
being targeted by the dark side than Hermione's ambitions.  I just don't
see the whole "plant a super-student at Hogwarts to challenge Hermione's
status as star pupil" as an effective means of targeting someone close
to Harry.  Sure, it's possible.  But, Ron's ambitions & vulnerabilities
are, IMHO, more likely to be targeted.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 15 16:00:48 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:00:48 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bapsa+er1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcgjg+bqtr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16822

So do people think the 'Old Crowd' were all at Hogwarts together - 
what about Lupin who's the wrong age?  I'd kind of assumed that they 
were the ones that were all working tirelessly against Voldemort at 
Dumbledores invitation and weren't necessarily the same age or 
anything.  Is there anything to say that the Potters were part of it 
(again I've always assumed this).

>From GoF we have:
Lupin
Mundungus Fletcher
Arabella Figg

by implication:
Sirius  (and so probably the Potters too)
Dumbledore

Maybe:
Senior Weasleys

Totally Tentative
Longbottoms


What are peoples thoughts on who is/isn't included and what the 
connection is?

Florence





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Apr 15 16:10:50 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:10:50 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius - Wizard newspapers
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414203755.00bd1ed0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIEBGCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16823

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Hardenbrook [mailto:DaveH47 at mindspring.com]
> 
> At 03:51 PM 4/14/01 +0000, rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
> >I am nervous too-- has anyone taken note that Rita Skeeter now knows
> >that Sirius Black is an animagus??? And that he is close to Harry???
> 
> Hermione could retaliate and say Rita is one too -- But what if she
> runs (flies) off like Wormtail?

Where could she go? I really don't see her going into hiding and
live off rats. <g> She could join the Dark Side like Pettigrew, maybe
write articles for the Death Eaters, but that is more than unlikely.
I'm not feeling very good about her knowing so much now, either
and would hope that Hermione would keep her in the glass a bit
longer... 

> What I keep worrying about is that he'll finally get aquitted of
> murder and helping Voldy, but then they'll throw him back
> into Azkaban for being an unregistered animagus!

I doubt that being an unregistered animagus is enough to go
to Azkaban, unless you have abused of this ability to commit
crimes. And Sirius has already (unjustly) served 12 years in
Azkaban, so I don't think he'll go back just for being an
animagus.

>  (If there
> still *is* an Azkaban after WizWarII... Otherwise, maybe
> they'll just sentence him to a year of Wizard community
> service.)

He's part of the old crowd, so he will have served the community
quite a lot when VWII will be over IMHO. No one with a bit of
sense will be able to deny that. And I have a feeling that Fudge
will lose more and more influence in the wizarding world if he
continues to refuse to believe that Voldemort is back.
 
> I think they must realize it already... They forced Sirius back
> into human form just before they attempted to give him the
> Kiss...

Good point. BTW, how do you think they forced him back into
human form near the lake? That always puzzled me a bit. I think
he was too weak to resist them any longer and had lost his
immunity because of the new hope he had gathered, but I'd 
really like to hear if someone has an idea why dementors are
able to force an animagus to back into human form.
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zarleycat at aol.com [mailto:Zarleycat at aol.com]

> An increasing number of people now know the secret:
---snip---
> The unknown: Molly Weasley - and I bet she'll tell Arthur.  Plus,  
> she'll probably also want to know how and why her youngest son seems 
> to be on good terms with an escaped murderer.

My take on it is that she was allowed to stay there to tell Arthur later,
that this was Dumbledore's intention. Arthur works at the MoM, and 
although Ron always says that he works in the most boring department,
I'm not so sure that it is really *that* boring. Dumbledore needs 
someone trustworthy in the MoM, and Arthur seems to be the ideal
person. He may have been part of the old crowd during VWI, too.
Didn't the fake Moody say that Arthur must know the Imperius curse
very well? That sounds as though his work for the ministry hasn't
always been as boring as it is now. 

> Which leads me to a totally unrelated topic - is there any other 
> source of news for the wizard world besides the Daily Planet?  We've 
> discussed the problems of the wizard court/legal system.  Does anyone 
> else feel that having only one news outlet is a dangerous thing to a 
> society???

The only other paper or magazine I remember is Witch Weekly, and
this doesn't seem to be a news magazine. We haven't heard of
anything else than the Daily Prophet so far. But we haven't heard
of any "parties" in the MoM either. We don't even know how the
Minister for Magic is elected. Yes, that seems to be a problem, but
the whole organization of the wizard society looks a bit archaic to
me, more like the feudal system that existed in Europe a few centuries
ago. The House Elves fit into this system very well, too. They always
reminded me of peasants who were owned by masters and weren't
paid, either.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sun Apr 15 16:14:23 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:14:23 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010415113739.0077d05c@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9bchcv+k8ov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16824

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:
> your suggestion that Dumbledore was registered earlier, Hermione 
mentions
> that there were seven registered animagi -this century-. I think 
it's
> entirely possible that he was registered in the last century, and 
therefore
> wasn't on the list Hermione was looking at.

I've thought that the law for registering animagus tranformation 
attempts may only have been passed about a century before, so that 
Hermiones list was the complete list since the law was passed.  As you 
only had to register if you were attempting it, existing animagi 
wouldn't need to be registered.  Dumbledore would have been about 50 
at the time and could easily already be an animagus.  I'm sure 
Hermione would have said if she'd seen Dumbledore on the list.

If Dumbledore were a bee animagus (and to me it does seem in 
character) will he use his sting as he dies?

Florence




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun Apr 15 16:19:20 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:19:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: dumbledore to die?!
In-Reply-To: <9b206j+103hq@eGroups.com>
References: <9b0r7k+c300@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010415121920.009c3fb0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16825

Working my back to some relatively old posts here (strange how something
posted barely 5 days ago can seem like such an ancient topic!

At 04:19 PM 4/11/01 -0000, you wrote:

>> Dumbledore will probably die to symbolize Harry's passage into full 
>> independence. Harry will lose his mentor and protector just before 
>> Harry's ready, and he'll have to carry on without him.  it will be 
>> Harry's worst moment and cruelest test.  The analogy might be Obi Wan 
>> or Yoda ("no more training do you need"). I suspect that Dumbledore 
>> will die in such a way as to pass the torch on to Harry. (The Yoda 
>> thing again)

I think it's 50/50. Remember that in PS/SS, Dumbledore gave Harry the
opportunity to confront Quirell/Voldemort (am I thinking of the right
episode? It's been too many months since I read the earlier books). It
seems to me that such an action hints to the possibility that the torch can
passed without killing off Dumbledore, since he seems perfectly happy
acting quietly in the background. I am however truly looking forward to a
grand showdown between Dumbledore and Voldemort (although I agree that the
final confrontation will probably be between Harry and Voldemort).

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 16:25:20 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:25:20 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Today=92s_Daily_Prophet?=
Message-ID: <9bci1g+jc07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16826

***************** THE DAILY PROPHET ********************

********What the Wizarding World Was Wondering***********

April 15, 2001                       Weather: Warm, Windy


INTERVIEW WITH A PROMINENT PROPHET

by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon

This interview was conducted at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and 
Wizardry earlier (or possibly later?) this month by the DP's U.S. 
correspondent, who would like to thank Flying Ford Anglia and other 
members of the Magical March Meeting in New York for their assistance.

HOGSMEADE, U.K., Apr. 15 - Sibyll Trelawney is Professor of 
Divination at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, the 
Scotland's world-famous wizarding school.  As a special treat for our 
readers, the Daily Prophet interviewed Professor Trelawney at her 
home in Hogwarts Castle.

Daily Prophet: It's an honor to meet you, Professor Trelawney.  You 
are known throughout the wizarding world for your spectacular 
predictions.  Do you have a greeting for our readers?

Sibyll Trelawney: Oh, yes, I am SO happy to be interviewed by the 
Daily Prophet!  Such a model of journalistic excellence!  I 
especially love your charming articles, Ms. Curmudgeon, and those by 
your delightful colleague, Rita Skeeter.  I hope all the Daily 
Prophet's readers enjoy them like I do, and I wish everyone well, 
despite any signs to the contrary.

DP: You are well known for your predictions concerning the war 
against You-Know-Who, made while Harry Potter was still a student 
here at Hogwarts.  Do you feel that those predictions inspired Harry 
and played a role in the defeat of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named?

ST: Well, of course!  Harry Potter was always one of my favorite 
students!  He just adored my classes, and was very brave in the face 
of all the truly terrible things he knew he must face.

DP: Some of your colleagues feel that divination is a rather 
imprecise branch of magic.  What do you think?

ST: Imprecise?  Hardly!  On the contrary, some of my colleagues have 
very little receptivity to the resonances of the future, and to 
excuse their lack of ?  IT WILL HAPPEN TODAY.  THE MOST MAGICAL CHILD 
BORN SO FAR THIS CENTURY WILL BE BORN IN TEXAS TO THE LINSENMEYERS.

DP: Professor Trelawney?  Are you alright?  Your voice has gotten all 
harsh, and your eyes have rolled...

ST: ELIZABETH GRACE LINSENMEYER, FROM AN ORDINARY MUGGLE FAMILY, WILL 
BE THE MAGICAL CHILD WHO LEADS US IN OUR FIGHT AGAINST THE DARK 
LORD.  SHE ALONE CAN SAVE US.  SHE ALONE WILL LEAD ? Oh, I'm sorry, I 
must have dozed off for a moment.

DP: What happened?  Your voice just changed, and you predicted that a 
muggle baby born today in the U.S. would lead us against the Dark 
Lord!  Are you saying the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named isn't really dead?

ST:  Stuff and nonsense!  I never said such a thing!  Why, I was 
discussing with Minister of Magic Fudge only yesterday just how 
impossible it is that the Dark Lord could ever return.  Why would I 
make such a ridiculous prediction about some American muggles and the 
(continued on pg. 12)




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 16:31:15 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:31:15 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <9bchcv+k8ov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcicj+bfh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16827

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> 
> If Dumbledore were a bee animagus (and to me it does seem in 
> character) will he use his sting as he dies?
> 
> Florence

Zoologically, since the beesting is an integral part of its hindleg,
and is barbed, in the act of stinging an animal with a tough hide the 
sting, leg and whatever else is pulled from the bee and the bee dies. 
This doesn't happen when they sting other bees.  This give rise to 
another branch for speculation, does it not?  Will Dumbledore die 
because he finally uses his sting?

Haggridd




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 17:05:50 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 17:05:50 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bcgjg+bqtr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bckde+d97t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16828

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> So do people think the 'Old Crowd' were all at Hogwarts together - 
> what about Lupin who's the wrong age?  I'd kind of assumed that 
they were the ones that were all working tirelessly against Voldemort 
at Dumbledores invitation and weren't necessarily the same age or 
> anything.  Is there anything to say that the Potters were part of 
it (again I've always assumed this).
> 
> From GoF we have:
> Lupin
> Mundungus Fletcher
> Arabella Figg
> 
> by implication:
> Sirius  (and so probably the Potters too)
> Dumbledore
> 
> Maybe:
> Senior Weasleys
> 
> Totally Tentative
> Longbottoms
> 
> 
> What are peoples thoughts on who is/isn't included and what the 
> connection is?
> 
> Florence


I think the Old Crowd is a select group of witches and wizards who 
were working to defeat Voldemort the first time around.  I imagine 
this group consisting of people who were not "average" wizards and 
witches, but individuals who were all quite powerful in their own 
right.  

I doubt they were all at school at the same time.  I envision this 
more as an organization with Dumbledore leading the way, and being 
assisted by others of various ages.  Dumbledore, perhaps with the 
assistance of other Hogwarts professors, could certainly have 
identified graduating Hogwarts students to recruit to join the fight.

Marianne




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Apr 15 17:17:02 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:17:02 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as DE - The Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <9bb4af+5mbv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEBLCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16829

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyda Clunas [mailto:lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com]
 
> Sirius didn't even know that Snape was once a 
> DE. I imagine that Fudge didn't either, because of the type of 
> secrecy that is involved. I believe that Snape's position is a bit of 
> mystery to the average wizard.

Why are you so sure that Sirius didn't know that Snape was
once a DE? Just wondering. I think he always knew it, but he
didn't know that Snape had changed sides, and that this is one
of the reasons he still hates Snape so much, even more than 
during his schooldays. Sirius told the trio in the cave scene that
Snape was hanging around at Hogwarts with a gang of Slytherins
who almost all became DEs later, and I think this included Snape.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florence [mailto:fgcjnk at btinternet.com]

> So do people think the 'Old Crowd' were all at Hogwarts together - 
> what about Lupin who's the wrong age?  I'd kind of assumed that they 
> were the ones that were all working tirelessly against Voldemort at 
> Dumbledores invitation and weren't necessarily the same age or 
> anything. 

I agree with this. Why should they all have been at Hogwarts
together? This isn't necessary to work together against the Dark
Forces. I think that Dumbledore had tried to get all those together
who he thought were 1) trustworthy enough and 2) capable enough
to serve the good side. This could have been people from all around
the country, no matter their age.

> Is there anything to say that the Potters were part of it 
> (again I've always assumed this).

I think the Potters must have played an important role in the war
against V. There must be a reason why V. wanted them dead, and
why he went to kill them *in person*. He could have sent some
DE to do the dirty job, but no, he showed up himself to make sure
that James and Harry would be really dead. Maybe he wanted to see
it with his own eyes for some reason. So the Potters were almost
certainly part of the old crowd.

> by implication:
> Sirius  (and so probably the Potters too)
> Dumbledore

For me it was clearly stated that Sirius was once part of the old
crowd, too. He seemed to know perfectly whom he had to alert,
I don't believe he went to Lupin to ask him for advice. If he knows
the members of the old crowd, he must have been part of it.
Dumbledore was the head of the gang IMO.

> Maybe:
> Senior Weasleys

I think they were part of it, too. See my other post where I explain
why I think Molly was allowed to see Sirius transform in the hospital
wing.

> Totally Tentative
> Longbottoms

Almost certainly. They must have been deeply involved or they
wouldn't have been tortured like they were.

> What are peoples thoughts on who is/isn't included and what the 
> connection is?

Maybe the old crowd or the Order of the Phoenix was something
like a secret society aimed at the defeat of Voldemort. And unlike
the Death Eater circle, I'm quite sure they all knew each other.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 




From elanorgamgee at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:23:59 2001
From: elanorgamgee at yahoo.com (Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Ron/Harry Fight; Ron's Prejudice; Percy; & a smidge of ADMIN
In-Reply-To: <3AD855CB.8F6891D0@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010415172359.18124.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16830

Penny wrote: 
>RON/HARRY FIGHT -- I just wanted to add a big "Me
>too" to the thought that Arabella originally voiced
>about how the portrayal of Ron in the common room 
>(the night he disrupted the conversation between
>Harry &Sirius) is meant to awaken our sympathies.  

Me three, Arabella!  (And Penny, this just goes to
show that we do still agree on something now and then.
 Just when I think it will never happen, something
comes up that we agree on <g>).

Penny wrote:
>Well, I do think Ron is more than just explaining
>that this is what most wizards think about these
>topics.  He's more than an objective >mouthpiece. 
"Get away from me, werewolf!"  

This particular scene has often been used as a an
example of Ron's prejudiced nature, but I really think
that argument takes it out of context.  He's just
discovered what he thinks the be the horrible
"truth"--not that Lupin is a werewolf, but that he
betrayed Ron's best friend.  We've already seen how he
reacts when his friends or family are attacked--it
would be out of character for Ron to treat Lupin in
any other way at this point in the scene, IMO.  I
realize that other examples have been tossed around,
and I won't address them here, because I essentially
agree with Rosmerta's post saying how Ron is the
"mouthpiece" of the wizarding world in those
instances.  Yes, he has preconceived notions.  We all
do.  He's human.  He's 14.  He's learning, just like
Harry and Hermione are.

Penny wrote:
>Conversely, no one has yet commented on my ... >ahem
.... *brilliant*(IMHO) analysis of why Harry >clearly
would not favor either of his best friends >over the
other.  Sigh.  Oh well.  I'll just assume >I'm right. 


:)  Well, it probably won't surprise you that I
completely disagreed with it, but I figured there
wasn't much point in going back over arguments we've
been through a million times before.  So there's that
reason for not getting a response too--the "I know
what my opinion is and I'm ready to talk about
something else" reason.

Although it can be a lot of fun when new members bring
up previously discussed topics again, because you get
an infusion of new ideas and arguments.  And that's
what makes this list so much fun in the first place.  

:)
Cap'n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

=====

"What can I say to people who insist on being that thick?

--Hermione, to Gwen

from HQOW, Year 4 by Arabella


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 17:52:17 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 17:52:17 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
In-Reply-To: <3AD9C4E9.8A062F11@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bcn4h+qr9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16831

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>  

Penny wrote:

> Shipper or no, you're making a fairly broad assumption there.  It's
> unsupported by evidence. <snip> To use your same logical analysis, 
> I would want some evidence for your assertion that Hermione doesn't 
> spend time with anyone outside of Harry and Ron.  When she's "off- 
> screen," we can't know where she is or what she's doing.  Evidence 
> that Harry & Ron observe her studying alone on various occasions   
> when they are estranged from her in the PoA fight is not solid     
> evidence that she unequivocally doesn't have any other friends or  
> other activities to occupy her time.
> 
 

Although I agree with most everything you wrote I do disagree that 
Hermione has friends outside of Harry and Ron at least based on PoA. 
One example of that is of coutse her studying alone. Another is when
Hagrid sends for Ron and Harry (pg. 273 PoA US):

"She's in a righ' state, that's what. She's bin comin' down ter visit 
a lot since Christmas. Bin feelin' lonely. Firs' yeh weren' talking 
to her because o' the Firebolt, now yer not talking to her because 
her cat--"

I get from this quote that she visits Hagrid alot because she doesn't 
really have anyone else to hangout with aside from Ron and Harry. 
Also she is taking more classes than anyone else so I see a lot of 
her free time taken up with studying and not leaving much time to 
make other friendships. 

Then there is the perception that she's a bossy know-it-all by 
everyone, and the best student in school.  When your 12,13,etc. that 
type of behavior doesn't endear you to your peers. I get the 
impression that most of the kids don't really like her because of 
that and thus gives another reason why she wouldn't have any other 
friends. 

Of course we don't see her every move and maybe she does have other 
friends, more like aquaintences, but I just, IMHO, don't really see 
it.

  Cheers,
          Kristin







From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 17:56:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:56:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as DE - The Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEBLCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20010415175650.32610.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16832

> Why are you so sure that Sirius didn't know that Snape was
> once a DE? Just wondering. I think he always knew it, but he
> didn't know that Snape had changed sides, and that this is one
> of the reasons he still hates Snape so much, even more than 
> during his schooldays. Sirius told the trio in the cave scene that
> Snape was hanging around at Hogwarts with a gang of Slytherins
> who almost all became DEs later, and I think this included Snape.


On Page 461 of GoF, in the same scene in the cave right after he
makes the comment mentioned above, Sirius describes the fates of
these various Slytherins and then says: "But as far as I know, Snape
was never even accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means
much.  Plenty of them were never caught.  And Snape's certainly
clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble."  

And on the same page: "...but I just can't see him [Dumbledore]
letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort."

Makes Snape's sneering at Harry as a "celebrity" in earlier books
more intelligible: here's Snape who's actually done very dangerous
things for the Right Side and nobody knows about it.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 18:03:13 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:03:13 -0000
Subject: Home!
In-Reply-To: <9bc1h9+u7cp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcnp1+gol7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16833

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > Has anyone else noted this?
> > 
> > In QA the creator of the golden snitch (i forget his name) lived 
in 
> > GODRICS HOLLOW!!! Do you think he knew Harry's grandparents? I'll 
> > check again, maybe it was before the Potters time...
> > 
> > claire :)
> 
> 
> His name was Bowman Wright.  Unfortunately, Mr Whisp doesn't give 
us 
> a year for the Snitch's invention.  I say it was probably sometime 
in 
> the 14th or 15th century, though.  
> 
> Peace & Plenty,
> 
> Parker

shame 
claire :(




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 18:08:33 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:08:33 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bckde+d97t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bco31+6ds7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16834

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> > So do people think the 'Old Crowd' were all at Hogwarts together -
 
> > what about Lupin who's the wrong age?  I'd kind of assumed that 
> they were the ones that were all working tirelessly against 
Voldemort 
> at Dumbledores invitation and weren't necessarily the same age or 
> > anything.  Is there anything to say that the Potters were part of 
> it (again I've always assumed this).
> > 
> > From GoF we have:
> > Lupin
> > Mundungus Fletcher
> > Arabella Figg
> > 
> > by implication:
> > Sirius  (and so probably the Potters too)
> > Dumbledore
> > 
> > Maybe:
> > Senior Weasleys
> > 
> > Totally Tentative
> > Longbottoms
> > 
> > 
> > What are peoples thoughts on who is/isn't included and what the 
> > connection is?
> > 
> > Florence
> 
> 
> I think the Old Crowd is a select group of witches and wizards who 
> were working to defeat Voldemort the first time around.  I imagine 
> this group consisting of people who were not "average" wizards and 
> witches, but individuals who were all quite powerful in their own 
> right.  
> 
> I doubt they were all at school at the same time.  I envision this 
> more as an organization with Dumbledore leading the way, and being 
> assisted by others of various ages.  Dumbledore, perhaps with the 
> assistance of other Hogwarts professors, could certainly have 
> identified graduating Hogwarts students to recruit to join the 
fight.
> 
> Marianne


Am I right in thinking that Mundungus Fletcher has only been 
mentioned twice before? Once in CoS (Mr Weasley told of how Mundungus 
tries to hex him while his back is turned) and once in GoF (at the 
Quidditch world cup resulting in him sleeping under his coat). Well...
if he was mentioned anywhere else I have forgotten (?)...

Claire :) *feels sick*






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 01:10:18 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:10:18 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves, namely Winky
Message-ID: <LAW2-F66O8FxhcMHYiy00007b8f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16835

Yeah, but he sure paid the price didn't he?   Crouch jr tonelessly relates:  
"I killed my father[...]When everyone was gone, I Transfigured my father's 
body.  He became a bone...I buried it[...]"  Whereas I can't help seeing 
Voldemort as a slightly camp figure, with his hackneyed world-domination 
plans (what I gather is referred to as OES, or Evil Overlord Syndrome), I 
found this passage had a bleak, true horror about it.  And Winky's grief 
makes her, as someone (apologies for lack of credit) rightly said, the most 
tragic character in the book.


>From: meboriqua at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves, namely Winky
>Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:42:25 -0000
>
>   One reason Crouch fires her
> > is that he has to go along with the pretense that she cast the Dark
> > Mark, and also get her out of the way before Amos asks her
> > any more difficult questions.
> >
> > Amy Z
> >
>
>
>Thanks, Amy!  Yes, that's a perfect example of how Crouch treated his
>faithful Winky.  I also thought it was pretty awful to fire her
>(knowing how humiliating it is for a house elf to 'get sacked') in
>front of a group of witches and wizards.  What a bad boss!  He didn't
>even care when Amos Diggory called her "Elf!" the way he did.  I get
>angry when my students tell when they've been treated badly at their
>jobs or at home...  shame on Crouch!
>
>-
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Apr 15 18:20:33 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:20:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Today=92s?= Daily Prophet
References: <9bci1g+jc07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AD9E670.9449E9D4@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 16836



joym999 at aol.com wrote:

DP: Professor Trelawney?  Are you alright?  Your voice has gotten allharsh, and your eyes have rolled...

>
> ST: ELIZABETH GRACE LINSENMEYER, FROM AN ORDINARY MUGGLE FAMILY, WILL
> BE THE MAGICAL CHILD WHO LEADS US IN OUR FIGHT AGAINST THE DARK
> LORD.  SHE ALONE CAN SAVE US.  SHE ALONE WILL LEAD  Oh, I'm sorry, I
> must have dozed off for a moment.
>
> DP: What happened?  Your voice just changed, and you predicted that a
> muggle baby born today in the U.S. would lead us against the Dark
> Lord!  Are you saying the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named isn't really dead?
>
> ST:  Stuff and nonsense!  I never said such a thing!  Why, I was
> discussing with Minister of Magic Fudge only yesterday just how
> impossible it is that the Dark Lord could ever return.  Why would I
> make such a ridiculous prediction about some American muggles and the
> (continued on pg. 12)

Ah, this gave me a good giggle! What a wonderful way to start Easter Sunday!
Thanx Joy!

Hugs and Bright Blessings
Jamieson

--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 18:47:02 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:47:02 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bckde+d97t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bcqb6+c13o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16837


> 
> 
> I think the Old Crowd is a select group of witches and wizards who 
> were working to defeat Voldemort the first time around.  I imagine 
> this group consisting of people who were not "average" wizards and 
> witches, but individuals who were all quite powerful in their own 
> right.  
> 
> I doubt they were all at school at the same time.  I envision this 
> more as an organization with Dumbledore leading the way, and being 
> assisted by others of various ages.  Dumbledore, perhaps with the 
> assistance of other Hogwarts professors, could certainly have 
> identified graduating Hogwarts students to recruit to join the 
fight.
> 
> Marianne

I tend to agree with you, Marianne.  I don't get the feeling that the 
Old Crowd is all the same age, or even necessarily from Hogwarts.  
What I have noticed is that they are all not quite your average wizard 
or witch.  Aside from probably having special abilities, none of them 
seem to be mainstream:
-Lupin is a werewolf
-Dumbledore is often criticized by parents, colleagues and the MOM for 
the way he does things
-Sirius has been in Azkaban for quite some time
-the Potters were involved in something so secret that Dumbledore 
wouldn't even tell them what they did
-Mundungus Fletcher is a "blimey old codger" (or seems to be)

Can't wait to find out who they are!

--jenny from ra




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 15 19:11:17 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:11:17 -0700
Subject: Portkey - OCD - Old Crowd - Ron - Godric's Hollow - Pigwidgeon -  Dumblebee
Message-ID: <3AD9F254.47E8B91B@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16838

Joywitch - today's DAILY PROPHET - LOL.

***

Lots of people (too many to give credit by name, I'm sorry) are asking
why did Voldemort and Crouch have to use the Triwizard Cup as a Portkey,
why couldn't they use all kinds of other things. I hope no one is
offended that I mention that this question was asked before -- because I
want to repeat the answer that was worked out in that discussion:

Hermione keeps telling us "You can't Apparate at Hogwarts!" Maybe the
spells that prevent Apparation also preventing Portkeying (so the
students arrive by train and boat/carriage rather than Portkey, and
Professors go to each other's offices by Floo), but Dumbledore as both
most powerful mage AND keeper of Hogwarts's protective spells (perhaps
part of the job as Headmaster) made one Portkey as an exception.  That
is, the Triwizard Cup was already a Portkey, one programmed to take the
person who touched it (no time specification on this Portkey) to the
victory platform next to the judges' box. Therefore, young Crouch,
powerful wizard tho' he was, was NOT able to turn anything into a
Portkey and had to use the Cup because it was already a Portkey. He just
hacked into its destination programming.

Allowing V enough time to prepare his embodiment spell, and the drama of
a flock of murderous Death Eaters descending upon all the bigshots of
wizarding society (how did Lucius explain away his absence from the
audience of the Third Task?)  in their moment of celebration no doubt
were attractive side benefits.

***

I am not a psychologist and have not looked anything up in DSM-IV, but
it bothers me that bunches of people are talking about OCD even tho' we
have seen no character wash her hands a hundred times a day like Lady
Macbeth, run all the way back to the dorm room to walk to the classrooom
all over again because she lost count of her steps, or inseparably carry
an old rusty piece of iron with her even to the Ball.

***

Catherine wrote:
> "Old" Mundungus Fletcher as well as an aged Mrs Figg/Arabella Figg.
> It seems that the old crowd are at least older than the Weasley
> parents, so are clearly not contemporaries of Lupin, Sirius et al.
> I wonder what their connection with Dumbledore/orginal roles were?

Like FLORENCE's (and MARIANNE's) later post(s), I assumed that 'the old
crowd' were the people who had worked for/with Dumbledore against
Voldemort last time around, people of all different ages. There has been
speculation that that group might have named itself 'The League against
Voldemort' or 'The Order of the Phoenix'. I assume that the League is
not working under the Ministry altho' some League members ALSO work for
the Ministry: probably Moody was a member of the League and we know he
was employed as an Auror by the Ministry. The Ministry probably viewed
Dumbledore and his League as a 'loose cannon'.

***

Amy Z wrote:
> Ron too.  Doesn't do anything to attain his ambitions, etc.  ??
>  What ambitions should he have, and how should he are to
> do satisfactorily in school, not be poor anymore, not join the
> Dark Side, be a good friend, and save his best friend from
> periodic attacks on his life.  What should he be doing to attain
> these things other than what we see him doing?

Ron, as you pointed out, has an ambition not to be poor any more. He's
old enough to be working on that ambition. Maybe by thinking of a
profitable future career and preparing himself for it (whether by
studying to get lots of OWLs and NEWTs as PENNY suggested, maybe by
neglecting schoolwork to spend time on an internship), maybe by starting
some little business there in school that hopefully at least would
provide pocket money as well as experience (the twins did it), maybe by
playing chess for money (could he learn to be just as good at poker?),
maybe in foolish ways like gambling on lotteries and other games that
are rigged against the players.

We have also been shown repeatedly that Ron wants to have some glory of
his own. PENNY quoted Dumbledore's statement about what Ron saw in the
Mirror of Erised.  He could be doing something NOW to show off. Probably
not trying to get the best grades in the class, as Hermione has that
sewn up, and maybe not sports as he didn't get on the House Quidditch
team. Maybe another sport: he has the build for a runner. Maybe start or
join Drama Club to try to star in a school play. Try to get famous for
solving the Daily Prophet's crossword puzzle faster than anyone.
SOMETHING.

***

Clairey wrote:
> In QA the creator of the golden snitch (i forget his name) lived in
> GODRICS HOLLOW!!!
Parker wrote:
> His name was Bowman Wright.
Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> It was most likely in the mid-1300s.

I feel sure that JKR didn't intend it to be a co-incidence that the
inventor of the Snitch lived in Godric's Hollow -- I suppose she
intended Godric's Hollow to be the Potters' ancestral  home and Wright
as well as Gryffindor among their ancestors -- but it makes me wonder.
The Potters were supposed to be in hiding from Voldemort -- surely
James's ancestral home would be one of the first places Voldemort looked
-- wouldn't that be a foolish place to hide, even with a Secret Keeper?
And Sirius must have been hiding, as he was pretending to be the Secret
Keeper and the Secret Keeper was supposed to be hiding so as not to be
caught and have the secret tortured out of him, so how was Sirius able
to go check on Peter? If Peter was also hiding, would that lead anyone
to suspect that he was the Secret Keeper?

Indigo wrote:
> Which begs the question (almost by the way) -- how did Ron
> explain suddenly ending up with the owl soon to be known as
> Pigwidgeon? (snip)
>  Maybe the Weasleys knew all along because Dumbledore had
> to send an owl to them explaining how Ron's leg got broken?

He could truthfully say that the owl was a gift. Molly would probably
assume that it was a gift from Harry and not bother to ask whom it was
from, maybe not even 'did you rememer to write a thank you letter?" If
she DID ask, from whom, could he get away with saying "a friend of
Harry's who felt sorry for me losing Scabbers" instead of a name?

IIRC Molly doesn't know that Sirius is innocent because she almost
freaks out at the sight of him when he transforms from dog into self in
Harry's hospital wing room.

Neil wrote:
> Like you, I think any self-respecting Transfiguration teacher
> would want to be able to demonstrate the ultimate transfiguration
> skill to their students

If he is an illegally unregistered Animagus, he wouldn't want to
demonstrate to his students because that would destroy his secrecy in an
instant. I prefer FLORENCE's suggestion that wizards and witches who
were Animagi before the 1900s century (Novocento?) began were just
grandfathered in.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 19:14:43 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:14:43 
Subject: does Hermione have any other friends/
Message-ID: <LAW2-F21tJdRRIvbMC900007e9f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16839




>From: "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron Penny 
>wrote:
>
> > Shipper or no, you're making a fairly broad assumption there.  It's
> > unsupported by evidence. <snip> To use your same logical analysis,
> > I would want some evidence for your assertion that Hermione doesn't
> > spend time with anyone outside of Harry and Ron.  When she's "off-
> > screen," we can't know where she is or what she's doing.  Evidence
> > that Harry & Ron observe her studying alone on various occasions
> > when they are estranged from her in the PoA fight is not solid
> > evidence that she unequivocally doesn't have any other friends or
> > other activities to occupy her time.

I agree.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  And there is some 
evidence that Hermione hangs out with the other girls sometimes:

"'Well - you know,' said Ron, shrugging, 'I'd rather go alone than with - 
with Eloise Midgeon, say.'
'Her acne's loads better lately - and she's really nice!'"
That suggests to me that Hermione does have other friends, or at any rate 
socialises with the girls.

I just can't resist adding the rest of that scene -
"'Her nose is off-centre,' said Ron.
'Oh, I see,' Hermione said, bristling.   'So basically, you're going to take 
the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?'
'Er - yeah, that sounds about right,' said Ron."
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr 15 19:27:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:27:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plot holes filled?
References: <LAW2-F65NY1SWoBDyse00007886@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AD9F627.E4B94B57@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16840

Morag Traynor wrote:

> On a more serious note, can anyone explain why the portkey works both
> ways? The one they used to get to the Quidditch World Cup didn't seem
> to, as the wizard who tossed it on to the pile of used portkeys was
> not hurled to various parts of the country.

The World Cup portkeys were enchanted to operate at a specific time;
Arthur and the rest handled it a bit themselves, before its designated
activation time. The Triwizard Cup portkey was enchanted to operate at a
touch. Same spell, different "trigger."

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 15 19:32:11 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:32:11 -0000
Subject: Snape as DE - The Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <20010415175650.32610.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bcsvr+7ek3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16841

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
>> Makes Snape's sneering at Harry as a "celebrity" in earlier books
> more intelligible: here's Snape who's actually done very dangerous
> things for the Right Side and nobody knows about it.<<

Precisely. Also explains why he goes bonkers when he misses out on 
the Order of Merlin *again* in PoA. You've got to feel at least a 
little pity for the guy; I'm completely under the impression that he 
has done *so* much for Our Side, yet due to the necessary secrecy of 
his actions, he gets no recognition, and is mistrusted by plenty of 
people to boot, IMO.

Lyda 





From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr 15 19:41:44 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:41:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP goes PC?
References: <9b70f2+trao@eGroups.com> <3.0.2.32.20010414215203.00a25840@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3AD9F977.DEBA72E2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16842

Samaporn Teeravechyan wrote:

> I'm not American and I couldn't care less about PC-ness or unPC-ness,
> but I feel very strongly about the idea that any other living creature
> should be in a state of natural servitude to humans. A different way
> of wording it would be to say that such an arrangement would be
> absolutely unnatural ... perhaps if house elves were created by
> wizards of ages past to serve them, I could live with the idea.

Has no one else thought that the house elf/human relationship might be a
symbiotic one? Such things are totally natural, occurring all over
everywhere, where two different species have evolved to operate together
(clown fish and anemone spring to mind, but there's scads of others).
The house elves don't exactly run off at the mouth about what they get
out of it, but that whole "keeping the secrets" thing hints that there's
lots more to the relationship than we know.

And even if wizards are exclusively served, and elves are exclusively
the servers, if this is indeed a symbiotic relationship of the sort you
see in nature, the elves still would need the wizards, as part of the
way they exist and survive. Take a poor oppressed clown fish away from
his anemone, where he's forced to stay, and liberate him, and the odds
are he'll get munched pretty damn fast.

--Amanda, feeling devil's advocatish today


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From LynnP333 at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 19:55:58 2001
From: LynnP333 at aol.com (LynnP333 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:55:58 EDT
Subject: House elves and holidays
Message-ID: <75.1329b0de.280b56ce@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16843

( First off... I hope my mail thingy here on AOL doesn't add blank spaces 
between all the lines as it has been annoyingly doing when I post to yahoo... 
My apologies if it does. )

Scott wrote:
<~~~snipola~~~>
>Hermione's whole SPEW concept goes 
>against popular wizarding belief. Even those who subconciously think 
>"Maybe she IS right" don't want to believe it, since it is so much 
>easier to just accept things the way they are. Remember when 
>Dumbledore said "You will have to choose between what is easy and 
>what is right." (paraphrased). I think that is as true for the HE(')s 
>as it is for Voldemort's return.
>
>Where JKR takes this subplot in future books will be interesting 
>indeed.
<~~~further snipola~~~>

I totally agree Scott.  I sympathize with Hermione's efforts too and I 
commend J.K.R. for making it an even harder concept to defend by making those 
Hermione sees as oppressed (the house elves), not see or agree to it 
themselves.  It makes Hermione's job a lot tougher, trying to convince the 
"oppressed ones" that they are indeed oppressed, and makes it a hard sell to 
wizards even more so.  

It could have been a very obvious (i.e., boring) sub plot ... creating an 
oppressed, disgruntled group of house elves to be gloriously liberated by an 
enlightened Hermione and members of S.P.E.W., thereby bringing them and their 
powers over to Dumbledore's side, but J.K.R. made it wonderfully gray and 
muddy.  Quite a dilemma and challenge for Hermione.  

When I first read about S.P.E.W., I related it more to the Muggle perceptions 
on animal rights (my own personal S.P.E.W. type thing) than to slavery of 
humans though, since the human slavery issue would involve dissidents and 
overwhelming hatred of being enslaved from the inside to change things 
effectively.  Since that aspect doesn't seem to be the case with house elves 
(at least to any significant degree as yet), I didn't go too far with that 
analogy in trying to understand it.
I instead compared the generally human perception of where animals stand in 
the Muggle world as almost parallel to where house elves stand in the wizard 
world ...including the attitude that "it's always been this way and that's 
how it was created to be so it should be that way till the end of time" sort 
of thinking, and the comparison of animals not being able to speak for 
themselves (creating a difficult sell to other humans that animals do not 
deserve to be used by humans in any manner they choose to use them 
whatsoever) to that of house elves not seeing anything wrong in their place 
in the wizard world. Both make it especially difficult to change others 
perceptions.   Does that gobbledygook make any sense? 8-}
I didn't blame Harry and Ron for being unenthusiastic toward Hermione's 
S.P.E.W. idea either. I think they (like Muggles) tend to fight against the 
injustices they relate to most, and/or when and how they feel they can be 
most effective.  

The relationship of house elves to wizards must go back eons to be such an 
accepted and even desired way of life for house elves to continue to want to 
maintain.  It would be interesting to find out how it came about. 

Anyway ... since Dumbledore told Madame Pomfrey to fetch Winky and take her 
to Dobbie at the end of GoF, I'm betting he's counting on Dobby's influence 
to change a now disillusioned and perhaps very maleable Winky at this point, 
so as to further persuade other house elves to change their way of thinking 
as well.  If nothing else, their way of life may be changed forever if V 
comes into power so the house elves may now be persuaded to use their own 
special elf powers to join with the others Dumbledore is rounding up, even it 
is just to maintain their status quo and not their ultimate liberation. 
As much as I *really really* need a house elf around my home being as I 
*really really* hate elfish duties... I reluctantly wouldn't have one either 
unless they accepted some form of payment - besides socks.
Instead... All I have are five very Peeves-like felines who must be part 
Kneazle since they are *way* too smart for their own good.

Lynn <8-)



From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr 15 20:05:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:05:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
References: <LAW2-F1049FopYC98Bi000073ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AD9FF26.88E7A815@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16844

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Even if V wasn't ready till then (agreed, highly probable, assuming he
> wanted to kill Harry personally and not just have Wormtail do it),
> Moody needn't have gone to the trouble of entering Harry in the
> Tounament.  He need only have waited and then used any ordinary
> object.

It's been postulated in the past that there was a purpose to using the
whole "Harry in the tournament" mechanism, above and beyond getting
Voldemort re-bodied. That was just part of the plan.

Think about it. At the Triwizard tournament, in the audience gathered
for the last task, you have
(1) the heads of the three most prominent wizarding schools in that part
of the world;
(2) the top officials of the Ministry of Magic;
(3) the children of probably the entire wizarding population of the UK;
and
(4) the children of several wizarding families from France and wherever
Durmstrang is.

All gathered there for a day of excitement. There's a good chance that
lots of them, saving those serving as referees, didn't even have their
wands with them. You could not make a more perfect setting for Voldemort
to burst in upon.

He has his enemies arrayed in force, unprepared and unready. He has the
element of surprise, in spades--he's not even in their thoughts, he's
*dead,* the shock of him being alive at all would probably paralyze most
of them for the time he needs to make his move. He would have his
DeathEaters at his side, so he could expect to be able to do maximum
damage. He could take the children of families who oppose him, and
ensure their nonparticipation and/or capitulation.

I believe, therefore, that the whole plan was something along these
lines:
(a) get Harry through the tournament as a winner
(b) get Harry to the graveyard for Voldemort's reanimation
(c) use the portkey to return to the grounds of Hogwarts
(d) make major offensive action against the gathered, unsuspecting might
of the free world.
(e) sit back and mop up.

It broke down at (b).

Using any other object at any other time would have gotten Harry to the
graveyard, but it would not have left the door open to the brilliant
tacitcal stroke of taking advantage of the unique crowd at the
Tournament. Any other object could also have portkeyed Voldemort into
Hogwarts, an advantage since he can't apparate into there, and he could
have roamed the halls and taken a few teachers unawares, but he wouldn't
have had the ministry officials, the other headmasters, or the children
as potential victims/hostages.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr 15 20:13:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:13:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
References: <LAW2-F45JLtosJ3Ih7j000074b3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ADA00D7.AE8D2A7B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16845

Morag Traynor wrote:

> You're quite right in what you say (apart from its being just you, of
> course :) ) but I don't recall Harry even making the kind of feeble
> excuses we all make in such situations.  My considered opinion is, he
> pays more attention to whether the house-elves he meets are happy,
> than to abstract arguments about rights and justice - and, with the
> obvious exception of Winky, for quite different reasons, they do seem
> happy at Hogwarts.  I just don't think he's making the connection at
> this stage.

I don't think I am either. I think this is a relationship which is
mutually beneficial. I think there is that in the house-elves' nature
that makes them truly enjoy doing what they do. That we perceive what
they do as "serving" is our problem. They have a fulfilled, purposeful
existence, untroubled by our definitions of what they do.

House-elves are not little homo sapiens. They are a *different species.*
Our definitions don't necessarily apply. And even in our own species,
the idea of what constitutes one's rights or justice varies considerably
from culture to culture. I posted eons ago my belief that simply
imposing our values on another culture, without fully understanding its
inherent intricacies and balances, can cause tremendous damage to that
culture. I think Hermione's intentions are laudable, but she doesn't
know the entire story. She's operating on appearances. Whenever
reformation slides into "whether you want it or not" I start to be
hesitant.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 15 20:44:17 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:44:17 -0000
Subject: does Hermione have any other friends/
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F21tJdRRIvbMC900007e9f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bd171+2dmp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16846

 <Evidence that Harry & Ron observe her studying alone on various 
occasions when they are estranged from her in the PoA fight is not 
solid evidence that she unequivocally doesn't have any other friends 
or other activities to occupy her time.
> 
> I agree.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  And there 
is some evidence that Hermione hangs out with the other girls 
sometimes>

I completely missed the discussion about Hermione :-( but I don't 
think she is dependent at all on the company of Ron and Harry.  They 
just happen to be her two best friends.  I imagine she spends plenty 
of time studying on her own in the library or in the common room, as 
well as probably talking after class to her professors or having a 
meal with other Gryffindor girls.  Hermione seems quite capable of 
doing her own thing.  I think she is much more independent than Ron, 
for example, who is obviously used to always spending time with groups 
of people - like his family.  

--jenny from ravenclaw************************************




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 21:07:48 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:07:48 -0000
Subject: House Elves, namely Winky
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F66O8FxhcMHYiy00007b8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bd2j4+rqrp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16847

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Yeah, but he sure paid the price didn't he?   Crouch jr tonelessly 
relates:  
> "I killed my father[...]When everyone was gone, I Transfigured my 
father's 
> body.  He became a bone...I buried it[...]"  Whereas I can't help 
seeing 
> Voldemort as a slightly camp figure, with his hackneyed world-
domination 
> plans (what I gather is referred to as OES, or Evil Overlord 
Syndrome), I 
> found this passage had a bleak, true horror about it.  And Winky's 
grief 
> makes her, as someone (apologies for lack of credit) rightly said, 
the most 
> tragic character in the book.
> 
> 
> >From: meboriqua at a...
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves, namely Winky
> >Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:42:25 -0000
> >
> >   One reason Crouch fires her
> > > is that he has to go along with the pretense that she cast the 
Dark
> > > Mark, and also get her out of the way before Amos asks her
> > > any more difficult questions.
> > >
> > > Amy Z
> > >
> >
> >
> >Thanks, Amy!  Yes, that's a perfect example of how Crouch treated 
his
> >faithful Winky.  I also thought it was pretty awful to fire her
> >(knowing how humiliating it is for a house elf to 'get sacked') in
> >front of a group of witches and wizards.  What a bad boss!  He 
didn't
> >even care when Amos Diggory called her "Elf!" the way he did.  I 
get
> >angry when my students tell when they've been treated badly at 
their
> >jobs or at home...  shame on Crouch!



I cried at two parts in Gof, at the end when Harry seems so empty and 
when Crouch jr says "I Transfigured my father's body...". I hated him 
so much for that. I wanted to shout at Mrs crouch and say "What have 
you done? You stupid woman!" (and words that i wouldn't post on this 
list). I just couldn't believe that someone could kill their own 
father so easily.

claire




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Apr 15 21:33:49 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:33:49 +0100
Subject: French books and German Audio versions
Message-ID: <000701c0c5f3$c3eba8e0$bc7601d5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16848

I've noticed that there are two formats of the French versions
available. The ones I have ( poche ) have bits missing. Are the bigger
versions unedited ?

And can anyone tell me if the German audio books are complete or
abridged ?

Many thanks

Michelle




From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 21:58:59 2001
From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:58:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Lupin's age
Message-ID: <20010415215859.76827.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16849

Hi.
I was wondering if somebody could explain how Lupin is
the wrong age (from the old crowd e-mails, that's
stated in it.)
I'm new to this group so it's probably been explained,
but could somebody re-explain it for me?  It'd be much
appreciated.
Thanks,
Sarah

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun Apr 15 22:22:29 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:22:29 -0000
Subject: Lupin's age
In-Reply-To: <20010415215859.76827.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bd6v5+s3ja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16850

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose <counterfeitlove at y...> wrote:
> Hi.
> I was wondering if somebody could explain how Lupin is
> the wrong age (from the old crowd e-mails, that's
> stated in it.)
> I'm new to this group so it's probably been explained,
> but could somebody re-explain it for me?  It'd be much
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Sarah
> 


I don't get that either. The wrong age? Compared to who? Dumbledore? 
I should think so...


claire
(who took the Harry Potter obsession test and found out she is 99% 
obsessed, meaning she falls into the "Be afraid. Be very afraid." 
catagory- even I didn't think i was that bad...) :)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 15 22:25:54 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:25:54 -0000
Subject: Lupin's age
In-Reply-To: <20010415215859.76827.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bd75i+v9pv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16851

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose <counterfeitlove at y...> wrote:
> Hi.
> I was wondering if somebody could explain how Lupin is
> the wrong age (from the old crowd e-mails, that's
> stated in it.)

Lupin was in school with James, Sirius, and Peter. The same year. I 
think he was the same age as them, but it has been suggested that he 
was a little older and had not been allowed to enter Hogwarts at the 
usual age because of being a werewolf, but was allowed to enter 
later when Dumbledore worked out his arrangement.

Therefore, Lupin is not old enough ("the wrong age") to have been in 
school with Old People like Mrs. Figg ("a mad old lady") and Old 
Mundungus Fletcher. I can't think of any reason why he should have 
been in school with Mrs. Figg and Mr. Fletcher...




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 23:48:11 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:48:11 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F122mP9CDBHy3S000061d5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16852

Koinonia wrote:

>There is also no excuse for the way Harry has treated some of his
>teachers.  He can be rather rude at times and he does seem to get
>away with breaking the rules quite a bit.  It's just that everyone
>tends to gloss over what Harry does.

Rule breaking, sure.  But *Harry* being *rude* to a teacher!!?  Where?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 23:29:38 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:29:38 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <3AD9FF26.88E7A815@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bdat2+lh9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16853

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> He has his enemies arrayed in force, unprepared and unready. He has 
the
> element of surprise, in spades--he's not even in their thoughts, 
he's
> *dead,* the shock of him being alive at all would probably paralyze 
most
> of them for the time he needs to make his move. He would have his
> DeathEaters at his side, so he could expect to be able to do maximum
> damage. He could take the children of families who oppose him, and
> ensure their nonparticipation and/or capitulation.
> 
> I believe, therefore, that the whole plan was something along these
> lines:
> (c) use the portkey to return to the grounds of Hogwarts
> (d) make major offensive action against the gathered, unsuspecting 
might
> of the free world.
> (e) sit back and mop up.


A few things about this plan.  One, Voldemort didn't even know how 
many DE's would return to him.  True, BC Jr has been feeding Voldy 
bits of info on what the DE's were doing and who was likely to 
return.  Still, you think one would be absolutely sure of how big and 
trustworthy his fighting force was.  Two, many of the DE's children 
attend Hogwarts.  Why would they take a chance of their own children 
being harmed?  Can you imagine what would happen if Voldemort showed 
up with the DE's?  People would probably be running and screaming and 
everyone would be in danger.  I don't know if the DE's would have 
gone along with that plan.  Also, Hogwarts isn't without some 
powerful witches and wizards. Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall (a very, 
very powerful witch according to JKR), Flitwick (there's more to 
him).  Who knows who else was in the crowd?  Voldemort didn't seem in 
any hurry to go to Hogwarts.  Surely after Harry and Cedric 
disappeared Dumbledore started to put two and two together.  
Dumbledore was probably making his own plans.

Still, I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to attempt such a thing.

Koinonia  





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 15 23:33:28 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:33:28 -0000
Subject: Lupin's age/Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <9bd75i+v9pv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdb48+jisr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16854

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
>> Therefore, Lupin is not old enough ("the wrong age") to have been 
> in school with Old People like Mrs. Figg ("a mad old lady") and Old 
> Mundungus Fletcher. I can't think of any reason why he should have 
> been in school with Mrs. Figg and Mr. Fletcher...<<

Well, that still doesn't exclude him from being a member of the "Old 
Crowd", IMO. I've always been under the impression that the "Old 
Crowd" simply refered to the people who were within Dumbledore's 
circle of the Voldemort Resistance. I think this included Remus, 
Sirius, Mundungus, Arabella, the Potters. Snape as well, IMO, but I 
think he was working on a different agenda, aside from the "Old 
Crowd", as he was a spy. There were most certainly others, too.

Lyda




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 23:39:55 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:39:55 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
In-Reply-To: <9bcn4h+qr9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdbgb+pobf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16855

Kristin:" [quoting Hagrid]'She's in a righ' state, that's what. She's 
bin comin' down ter visit a lot since Christmas. Bin feelin' lonely. 
Firs' yeh weren' talking to her because o' the Firebolt, now yer not 
talking to her because her cat-'
 
[As yourself]I get from this quote that she visits Hagrid alot because 
she doesn't really have anyone else to hangout with aside from Ron and 
Harry. Also she is taking more classes than anyone else so I see a lot 
of her free time taken up with studying and not leaving much time to 
make other friendships. "

By GoF Hermione's not a bossy know-it-all anymore, but both her habits 
and the perceptions her fellow students have are probably pretty much 
set.  I'm sure she has acquaintances, as you say, and she has to have 
some relationship with her dorm-mates. OTOH, how can any friendship 
compare with the people you save the Universe with?  Is she going to 
discuss the latest heartthrob in _Teen Witch_ Magazine, or help Harry 
prepare for the Dark Lord again?

I think it's pretty clear no friends of Hermione's can compete with 
Harry and Ron.




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 23:43:07 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:43:07 -0000
Subject: Lupin's age
In-Reply-To: <9bd75i+v9pv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdbmb+udo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16856

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:  
 > Therefore, Lupin is not old enough ("the wrong age") to have been 
in 
> school with Old People like Mrs. Figg ("a mad old lady") and Old 
> Mundungus Fletcher. 


Ageed.  In PoA Lupin is referred to as *quite young*.  Sure doesn't 
fit in with Mrs. Figg and Mundungus.

Koinonia




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 23:47:28 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:47:28 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <9bcicj+bfh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdbug+t4sr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16857

Haggridd:"Zoologically, since the beesting is an integral part of its 
hindleg, and is barbed, in the act of stinging an animal with a tough 
hide the sting, leg and whatever else is pulled from the bee and the 
bee dies.  This doesn't happen when they sting other bees.  This give 
rise to  another branch for speculation, does it not?  Will Dumbledore 
die because he finally uses his sting?"

The effect you describe happens to honeybees, apis mellifera, but not 
to many other hymenoptera.  I don't think (but am not sure) it happens 
to bumblebees, which is the literal meaning of Dumbledore's name.

Hey, anything is possible unless JKR says it isn't.




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 15 23:57:59 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:57:59 -0000
Subject: S. Snape suspected snake speech?
In-Reply-To: <20010415142633.98170.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bdci7+66qi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16858

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:. 
> 
> Snape didn't know Harry was a Parseltongue because when the snake
> appeared he told Harry not to move and he (Snape) would get rid of
> it.  He would have stood back and waited silently with arms folded.

Snape probably didn't know Harry was a Parseltongue but I think he 
wanted to find out and what a perfect chance.  Snape did stand back.  
He did wait to see what Harry would do. He only got rid of the snake 
after Harry did his little talk! Snape just calmy got rid of the 
snake.     

 
> I think he thought it would be fun to use the Slytherin symbol to
> terrify Harry in front of his friends; as someone else said, most
> people are icky about snakes and this was a big one.


Though Snape can seem petty and childish at times, I don't think this 
was the case here. If Snape was just trying to terrify Harry, I would 
have expected him to be peeved that Harry wasn't afraid.  That wasn't 
Snape's response.  Snape is clever and calculating.  He found an 
opportunity to find out more about Harry and he took it.

  
> > The question (if Snape didn't knew): Given the amount of time he 
> > spent with the other parselmouth, wouldn't he be at least 
slightly 
> > pale or surprised at the discovery of another one?


Not necessarily.  


Considering the
> Great Slytherin Mythology, Snape would have to wonder if there's 
more
> to Harry than is apparent superficially.

That's why I think Snape took this wonderful opportunity to check 
Harry out.  

Koinonia






From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 00:20:45 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:20:45 -0000
Subject: Snape and Kappas (FBaWTFT)
Message-ID: <9bddst+104b9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16859

A friend of mine asked me why Snape is mentioned in conjunction with 
Kappas in FB. I believe that he (Snape) once called them Chinese 
(whereas they are Japanese), but I can't quote chapter and verse. Can 
Anyone help us out?

Heather M.




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 16 00:28:29 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:28:29 -0000
Subject: Snape and Kappas (FBaWTFT)
In-Reply-To: <9bddst+104b9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdebd+jeqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16860

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
>>Can Anyone help us out?<<

Why, sure! Page 172, American version, of PoA:

"Very poorly explained... That is incorrect, the Kappa is more 
commonly found in Mongolia... Professor Lupin gave this eight out of 
ten? I wouldn't have given it three..."
-- Snape

Does that help?

Lyda




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 00:40:48 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:40:48 -0000
Subject: Another Dumbledore Speculation
In-Reply-To: <9bdbug+t4sr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdf2g+uluv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16861

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Haggridd:"Zoologically, since the beesting is an integral part of 
its 
> hindleg, and is barbed, in the act of stinging an animal with a 
tough 
> hide the sting, leg and whatever else is pulled from the bee and the 
> bee dies.  This doesn't happen when they sting other bees.  This 
give 
> rise to  another branch for speculation, does it not?  Will 
Dumbledore 
> die because he finally uses his sting?"
> 
> The effect you describe happens to honeybees, apis mellifera, but 
not 
> to many other hymenoptera.  I don't think (but am not sure) it 
happens 
> to bumblebees, which is the literal meaning of Dumbledore's name.
> 
> Hey, anything is possible unless JKR says it isn't.

I know that it doesn't apply to wasps, because their stings are not 
barbed.  Is a bumblebee a bee proper, or is it a wasp?

Haggridd





From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Apr 16 01:00:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:00:04 -0500
Subject: Daily Prophet; Searching through Archives/FAQs; Harry's Favorite Friend(s); Ron's Ambition
Message-ID: <3ADA4414.D4EE40E8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16862

Hi --

Thanks to Joywitch for her entertaining Daily Prophet edition (I have a
copy for baby's scrapbook)!!  :--)  Unfortunately, Professor Trelawney's
accurate prediction tally seems to be holding out at *2*!  Elizabeth
Grace is late ......

SEARCH FEATURE: I've noticed a few people commenting on the search
feature on Yahoogroups (and its general lack of utility).  I agree!
Writing the FAQs and trying to use that search function has been a real
challenge.  For the newbies who aren't aware, there is a "FAQs
Committee" working on a set of topical substantive FAQs (essays really)
on topics ranging from each major character, the economy, government &
social issues of the wizarding world, spells, wands, potential romance
pairings -- really everything.  There are 50+ FAQs in all, and I think
that at this point about 50% of them are ready to be uploaded.

We are having some discussions about where to upload these documents,
but I'm hopeful that this will all be resolved soon.  I'm sure the
old-timers are all thinking, "Yeah, right.  We've been hearing *this*
for about forever now."  But, it is the truth.  We do have most of them
written or in draft form.  If you search the Archives and type in FAQs
Update, I think you should find a reasonably recent message from me that
lists out all the FAQs if you're curious as to what we're covering.  It
has been a real challenge since we originally were covering about 7500
messages from our Yahoo Club days, and the message tally has risen to
nearly 25,000 in the aggregate since we started this project.  So ....
soon.  Soon, I hope!  :--)

Segueing into my next topic --

> I wrote:
> >Conversely, no one has yet commented on my ... >ahem
> .... *brilliant*(IMHO) analysis of why Harry >clearly
> would not favor either of his best friends >over the
> other.  Sigh.  Oh well.  I'll just assume >I'm right.
>
>
> Kathy replied: :)  Well, it probably won't surprise you that I
> completely disagreed with it, but I figured there wasn't much point in going back over arguments we've
> been through a million times before.
>
Well, I used the Yahoogroups search feature, since I couldn't recall us
having discussed this particular issue in the past.  I didn't find
anything.  So, I'm left not knowing what your opinion is really.  I do
know that you believe Harry cares for Ron more than Hermione, and I know
you have plenty of reasons why you believe this to be so.  But, I don't
know that you've specifically addressed my argument that Harry says
pretty clearly at the bottom of the lake that Hermione is his friend too
-- he thinks they are equally important according to his own words in
the 2nd Task.  But, no big deal if you don't want to discuss it
further.  Just noting that I don't recall it having been discussed in
the past, and the search feature didn't yield anything.

HERMIONE'S FRIENDS -- I agree with Jim that clearly Harry and Ron are
her best friends!  But, I still say we don't really know that she
doesn't have other friends or at least acquaintances.  The Eloise Midgen
example is a good one.  She doesn't really have close friends to fall
back on -- we see Ron hanging out with the twins & Lee and/or Seamus &
Dean in GoF when he's estranged from the Trio.  In PoA, we are
definitely left with the impression that Hermione is pretty much on her
own.  But, she did have alot of studying to do at that point, and she
probably did at least have acquaintances to eat meals with & so forth.
I don't think her dorm-mates would have snubbed her & refused to let her
eat lunch with them for example.

RON'S AMBITION -- Thanks to Rita for making some good points about
things that Ron could be doing to advance his ambitions & goals.  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 01:07:41 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:07:41 -0000
Subject: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
Message-ID: <9bdgkt+1rm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16863

Ok, nice spring days and long walks lead to postulating on nothing 
other than- Harry Potter. I was thinking and postulating and well I 
know it sound far out but- 

Could Harry be a squib? Yes I know he can do magic quite well, he's 
obviously not a squib now, but could he have been, or at least a not 
very powerful wizard, before Voldy transfered some of his powers into 
Harry. (That has to be a run on sentence!)

See it would fit JKR's sense of irony quite well if Harry would never 
have been able to become a worthy adversary of Voldemort(')s had it 
not been for V's trying to kill him. 

Make sense?

So what would this have to do with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye. I'm 
erm not really sure. (Hey it wasn't THAT long of a walk!) But it does 
make sense that somehow, whether like this or not, Voldemort's fate 
is inexplicably tied to Harry. 

Scott
off to ponder...




From jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 01:10:34 2001
From: jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk (jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:10:34 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9b7pm5+4n1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdgqa+mk0j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16864

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:<br>
> Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?<
p>
I love all the quotes everyone's posted! Here's one of my favorites, it's just so Percyish! ^_^<p>
    "Look at the time," Mrs. Weasley said suddenly, checking her 
wristwatch. "You really should be in bed, the whole lot of you --- 
you'll be up at the crack of dawn to get to the Cup. Harry, if you 
leave your school list out, I'll get your things for you tomorrow in 
Diagon Alley. I'm getting everyone else's. There might not be 
time after the World Cup, the match went on for five days last 
time."<br>
    "Wow --- hope it does this time!" said Harry enthusiatistically.<
br>
    "Well, I certainly don't," said Percy sanctimoniously. "I <i>shudder</i> to think what the state of my in-tray would be if I was 
away from work for five days."
<p>
Julius




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Mon Apr 16 01:56:44 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:56:44 -0000
Subject: Wither Winky? (was Re: House Elves, namely Winky)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F66O8FxhcMHYiy00007b8f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bdjgs+e1un@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote....
And Winky's grief 
> makes her, as someone (apologies for lack of credit) rightly said, 
the most 
> tragic character in the book.
> 
Has Winky's future already been discussed anywhere? Because it seems 
to me that she might have more bad things coming her way, namely that 
Voldemort is going to try to whack her. She knows an awful lot about 
Crouch's and Pettigrew's doings and she's still at large in the 
stronghold of Hogwarts. It would make a lot of sense for Voldemort to 
try and get rid of her before the good guys wrest any more 
information out of her. 

My personal pet theory is that V's henchmen try to kill her, Dobby 
tries to defend her and is himself killed, thereby becoming 
the "special friend" that is rumored to die in one of the upcoming 
books. I've seen a lot of discussion various places about 
what "special" means, but maybe it means "house elf." 

~Rosmerta




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 16 02:14:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:14:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot holes filled?
References: <9bdat2+lh9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADA5586.C3B7D268@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16866

koinonia02 at yahoo.com wrote:

> A few things about this plan.  One, Voldemort didn't even know how
> many DE's would return to him.

He is, I think, egotist enough to think he could handle it alone,
anyway, and any Death Eaters that show will get in on the fun. Gravy.
And a nice filtering device to detect the faithful.

>  True, BC Jr has been feeding Voldy bits of info on what the DE's were
> doing and who was likely to return.  Still, you think one would be
> absolutely sure of how big and
> trustworthy his fighting force was.

One would. I would. But Voldemort is given to grand gestures (such as
dueling with Harry), which can backfire. Logical evil is easy to figure
out; melodramatic evil is very unpredictable. I think he was wanting the
grand gesture, especially if, should things at Hogwarts have gone badly,
he could Portkey away again out of reach.

>  Two, many of the DE's children attend Hogwarts.  Why would they take
> a chance of their own children being harmed?

Voldemort strikes me as distinctly being the type to demand loyalty to
himself above all others, family included. I still think that the bond
between Death Eater and Voldemort, the visible sign of which is the dark
mark, is more than a signaling device; I think it tied their lives to
his forever. Those who thought to return to "normal life" were kidding
themselves.

>  Can you imagine what would happen if Voldemort showed
> up with the DE's?  People would probably be running and screaming and
> everyone would be in danger.  I don't know if the DE's would have gone
> along with that plan.

....? It sounds perfect to me, from a Death Eater point of view. After
years of scraping and bowing and denying their own inner selves, wow!
Hey, nah, hey, nah, our Master's back! [ooooh, filk material there for
sure.....] Sure, there'll be some casualties. So what?

And besides that, who *ever* said that what the Death Eaters thought
made any difference at all to Voldemort? *He's* the leader, not them. If
they don't like his plan, tough. Do it anyway.

>  Also, Hogwarts isn't without some powerful witches and wizards.
> Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall (a very, very powerful witch according
> to JKR), Flitwick (there's more to
> him).  Who knows who else was in the crowd?  Voldemort didn't seem in
> any hurry to go to Hogwarts.  Surely after Harry and Cedric
> disappeared Dumbledore started to put two and two together. Dumbledore
> was probably making his own plans.

That's the whole point. It would be possible to take every single one of
them by surprise, at once. Surprise is a one-time shot. The chance for
that level of surprise is seldom seen. Two, three, maybe four well-aimed
spells, and you've taken out some serious wizard opponents, who didn't
react because of shock, didn't have their wands, whatever.

Dumbledore may well have been making some plans, but there's no evidence
that having a reanimated Voldemort in his front yard was a foreseen
contingency. It seems that chaos and disorder were the results of the
disappearance of Harry and Cedric, rather than any sort of ordered
mobilization.

> Still, I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to attempt such a thing.

I think it was the plan from the beginning. I don't think he was
expecting the whole Harry duel to take very long at all. I'm betting
that the Priori Incantatem effect took a bit more time than originally
planned. Doing the whole showy duel with Harry was also intended, I
think, to wipe any shred of doubt from the Death Eaters' minds (I can't
believe there weren't some Death Eaters of stronger mind than Pettigrew,
who, seeing their master as this nasty weak little thing, wouldn't have
simply squashed or drowned it.....then again, if the dark mark binds
unto death, maybe not...).

--Amanda, rambling now


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eakman at home.com  Mon Apr 16 03:08:14 2001
From: eakman at home.com (Jeff Eakman)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:08:14 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin the Writer
References: <9bavsc+9kav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADA621E.AA6092FF@home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16867

Jeffrey writes:
You may be on to something. In,<Exploring Harry Potter> JKR makes Ref,.
to Book II, that Harry was born in late July 1980. So the ages of those
before maybe so. 

Demelza wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...>
> wrote:
> > (I asked this question once before, and only got one response,
> > probably b/c my subject line wasn't really indicitive of the
> > question, I'll ask again...)
> >
> > Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written _Hairy Snout,
> > Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote in Werewolves section.)  The
> > publication date is 1975, which would make him slightly older than I
> > thought he was (If, and I'm not totally convinced of this, the
> > Mauraders left Hogwarts in '78 or '79).  Unless he wrote it AT
> > Hogwarts, he's pretty smart -- maybe after the Snape Prank incident
> > he was inspired.  I would really like to think he wrote it, that
> way,
> > I could imagine that he got a few royalities off the book, I
> wouldn't
> > have to worry about him so much, financially and all.
> >
> > Stephanie
> 
> That was my initial thought. But then I remember in a recent BBC
> interview, J. K. Rowling revealed that Snape was 35-36 years old. So
> if Snape was 35-36 in the early-mid 90's, when the Potter series
> occurs and if the Lupin is in the same age group as Snape, then he
> would have been about in his teens when the book was written. Of
> course, that wouldn't necessarily he could not have written the book.
> 
> Demelza
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 03:21:29 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 03:21:29 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <3ADA5586.C3B7D268@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bdofp+c65d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16868

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
But Voldemort is given to grand gestures (such as
> dueling with Harry), which can backfire. 

Yes he is.  You would think he would learn by now.  He just has such 
a high opinion of himself.  


> Voldemort strikes me as distinctly being the type to demand loyalty 
to
> himself above all others, family included.


Now that I don't see.  I can't see Lucius Malfoy putting Voldemort 
above Draco.  I know some people see it that way but I don't. 


I still think that the bond
> between Death Eater and Voldemort, the visible sign of which is the 
dark
> mark, is more than a signaling device; I think it tied their lives 
to
> his forever. Those who thought to return to "normal life" were 
kidding
> themselves.


Sure their lives are tied to him.  Are they willing to serve him even 
if it means they lose their families in the process?  Maybe some of 
the DE's are willing to sacrifice their loved ones but surely not all.
I still can't see the DE's willing to attack Hogwarts when their 
children are there. As far as returning to "normal life", that is why 
I so fear for Snape.  Surely he doesn't believe he could ever have a 
normal life after all he has done (spy, etc).  
  
 
> ....? It sounds perfect to me, from a Death Eater point of view. 
Sure, there'll be some casualties. So what?
> 
> And besides that, who *ever* said that what the Death Eaters thought
> made any difference at all to Voldemort? *He's* the leader, not 
them. If
> they don't like his plan, tough. Do it anyway.


I don't know.  I can't see Voldemort telling his circle of DE's that 
they will now be attacking Hogwarts and 'tough if your kid gets in 
the way and dies.'  Actually, I can see Voldemort saying that. He is 
pure evil.  What I mean is I can't picture all the DE's saying, "Oh 
sure.  Whatever it takes."  Even evil, worthless people can love 
their families.
 
 
> That's the whole point. It would be possible to take every single 
one of
> them by surprise, at once. Surprise is a one-time shot. The chance 
for
> that level of surprise is seldom seen. 

I will admit that the element of surprise is very important in these 
situations.

 
> Dumbledore may well have been making some plans, but there's no 
evidence
> that having a reanimated Voldemort in his front yard was a foreseen
> contingency. It seems that chaos and disorder were the results of 
the
> disappearance of Harry and Cedric, rather than any sort of ordered
> mobilization.


I don't believe Dumbledore ever expected Voldy to show up in his 
front yard. Horror!  It's just that D. knew Voldemort was getting 
stronger.  I just have so much faith in Dumbledore that I don't think 
he could be totally blindsided by anything Voldemort would do.

I also hope your theory of the DE's dying (being connected by the 
Mark) if V. dies is wrong. It's just my hoping that Snape will 
survive but I seriously doubt he will.

Koinonia 
   
 





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 03:34:09 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Some comments on unfriendliness/ignored posts etc 
In-Reply-To: <013801c0c4dd$f7bab9c0$c23670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010416033409.15492.qmail@web204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16869


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> The other thing to remember is that 'no responses'
> does not equal 'ignored'.
> People sometimes read messages, but decide against
> responding, perhaps
> because they accept the points made, but don't have
> much to say beyond, "I
> agree with you!"  On the other hand, some people
> lurk and never post to the
> list, but they will still read what others have to
> say.  I'm quite happy to
> throw an opinion into the mix and not get any direct
> responses, because
> someone else may be able to bounce their ideas off
> mine.

Good points you've raised, Neil. I fall into the first
category. I tend to be a few hundred posts behind
everyone at times and by the time I get caught up on
reading everything, my points have generally been made
by someone else. I make a point of reading everything
first, rather than just jumping in with a response,
which tends to be a *good* thing, as someone else has
usually made the same point as I would have, just a
couple of posts further on.

Okay, back to catching up with what you all said over
the weekend!

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 13 17:08:44 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:08:44 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
Message-ID: <LAW2-F132lHiu3fQtYd0000663f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16870



Catherine wrote:

>I find this theory very interesting, and quite plausible, given
>Neville's general forgetfulness.  That is, apart from one thing.
>What possible reason could there be for Neville having his memory
>moderated?  He knows what happened to his parents, as was revealed in
>GoF, he spends sleepless nights thinking about it, as we find out
>when Harry has entered Dumbledore's pensieve.  What else could there
>be for him to know?  I'm not discounting the theory - just interested
>to find out what other possibilies there are.

As one who used to have Neville's memory when I was at school, I'd say it 
was perfectly consistent with his general lack of confidence, so not 
necessarily the result of a memory charm.  On the other hand, a memory charm 
would be perfectly consistent with his family's well-meaning but inept 
efforts to help him.
>
>As for your comments about Snape's frustration about Neville just
>being a hopeless pupil...Don't get me wrong, my attitude towards
>Snape has changed a great deal since GoF, if not earlier, and I don't
>see him in the black and white terms with which I feel he is often
>depicted.  However, in Neville's case, he is definitely an extremely
>bad, cruel and bullying teacher.  I come from a long line of
>schoolteachers (I am not one myself, but used to do private tutoring)
>and one thing I can say without equivocation is that the best a
>teacher can do is encourage and be positive about a pupil's
>achievements, NOT to bully, and scare them so much that they are
>always going to do badly in your class because you have turned them
>into a nervous wreck.  Snape may well be trying to get Neville to
>show his mettle, but IMO he is not succeeding, and is really getting
>a sadistic pleasure out of treating Neville badly.
>If one was to try and bolster Neville up, and make him feel braver,
>one only has to follow the example of Prof Lupin.  In my mind, it
>bears no comparison.

Hear hear!  Neville doesn't need help, he needs someone to have confidence 
in him.
>
>Catherine,
>(who also has a soft spot for Neville, as everyone has probably
>noticed).

Oh, me too, me too!


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr 16 04:16:33 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:16:33 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bcqb6+c13o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bdrn1+7lgh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16871


> I tend to agree with you, Marianne.  I don't get the feeling that 
the 
> Old Crowd is all the same age, or even necessarily from Hogwarts.  
> What I have noticed is that they are all not quite your average 
wizard 
> or witch.  Aside from probably having special abilities, none of 
them 
> seem to be mainstream:
> -Lupin is a werewolf
> -Dumbledore is often criticized by parents, colleagues and the MOM 
for 
> the way he does things
> -Sirius has been in Azkaban for quite some time
> -the Potters were involved in something so secret that Dumbledore 
> wouldn't even tell them what they did
> -Mundungus Fletcher is a "blimey old codger" (or seems to be)
> 
> Can't wait to find out who they are!

I may have missed a post or three on this topic, so if this has 
already been mentioned, I apologize. But notice that the "old crowd" 
is not capitalized in the book. It isn't necessarily a group in any 
sort of official way. Dumbledore could very well be simply saying "Go 
get, you know, everybody we know are on our side from back in the Bad 
Years." Maybe they were just drinking buddies. 

Oh, heck, I like to think that they're all Dumbledore's Ragtag Army 
of Misfits, AKA The Order of the Phoenix, too. But that isn't 
necessarily so from the simple, lower-case 'old crowd.' 

On a vaguely related note, I wonder sometimes as I write things for 
the Lexcicon if the term Marauders was ever intended by JKR to be a 
name for the foursome of James, Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, or if 
it's meant as a description of the map only: A Map To Use for 
Marauding, and if you use it for that, you're a Marauder. Not a 
particularly important distinction, since it's just plain convenient 
to have a name for that group (and I wish we had one like that for 
the Harry/Ron/Hermione trio). But since I do try to avoid assumptions 
in the Lexicon...

Steve Vander Ark
(editing at midnight)
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 04:35:41 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:35:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <9bcfgc+b8rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416043541.24717.qmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16872


--- Florence <fgcjnk at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Just to note that in the database area of this group
> there's a French 
> translation file which gives the different names for
> various things.  
> I've not checked yet as to how comprehensive it is,
> but when I've 
> finished book 1 I will try and remember to.
> 
> I'd recommend the french versions for anyone wanting
> to brush up on 
> the language - That's exactly why I got my copy last
> week on holiday. 
> The largest deviation I've run into so far is when
> Harry asks Ron what 
> prefects are and gets a short explanation. 
> Otherwise its just a word 
> change here and there.
> 
> One that made me laugh was when Snape (Rogue)
> wonders if they'll be as 
> big a bunch of cornichons (translates as ghekins not
> dunderheads) as 
> usual - it reminded me of all the jars of pickled
> things in his office 
> - Is that how he thinks of them all?
> 
> Florence
> 
I have to disagree that it's mostly just a change of a
word here and there. I have all 4 books in French,
though I can only get my hands on the first one at the
moment (I don't want to wake hubby up rooting around a
dark bedroom in search of the rest!). I was actually
talking about this issue tonight with another list
member (Hi, Jamieson!). To give you an example from
PS: on p. 35 there are 4 paragraphs, starting with "He
looked so dangerous with half his moustache missing
that no one dared argue." and ending with "He was
hungry, he'd missed five television programmes he'd
wanted to see and he'd never gone so long without
blowing up an alien on his computer.". Not only is the
first sentence completely missing, but the French
versions have condensed these 4 paragraphs into only
2. They also completely leave out the bit about Dudley
trying to stuff his television, video and computer
into his sports bag.

There are numerous grammatical errors in the French
versions, as well. A sentence in English, which starts
with the words 'all the same' is translated as 'mais
enfin, quand meme' which is rather redundant, as enfin
and quand meme would each give the same meaning.

In any event, I'm doing a fairly detailed comparison
of the two versions, but it is very slow going. The
results will definitely be available to anyone who's
interested in seeing the end result.

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr 16 04:56:58 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:56:58 -0000
Subject: The Deathday Bash (filk)
Message-ID: <9bdu2q+t71j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16873

The Deathday Bash (from CoS, Chapter 8)

(To the tune of The Monster Mash)

(The Scene: A roomy dungeon deep within Hogwarts' Castle. SIR 
NICHOLAS DE MIMSY-PORPINGTON'S 500th Deathday Party is just getting 
underway. Amidst a large assemblage of ghosts, poltergeists, and 
various phantasms, are HARRY, RON & HERMIONE, the only living party-
goers, who are here at the invitation of SIR NICHOLAS)

HP: We've an invitation this Halloween night
To attend a soiree with phantoms and frights,
Thanks to Sir Nicholas, who's already dead
A man who'd nearly lost his head 

TRIO: We did the bash
HP: We did the Deathday bash!
TRIO The Deathday bash
HG: The bar is so not cash
TRIO: Were we too rash? 
RW: It was a culture clash
TRIO: We did the bash
We did the Death Day bash!

NICK: On the semi-millennium of my demise
A Deathday party I'd hoped to devise
>From near and far a gathering of friends
All of whom had met with miserable ends

NICK: We did the dance!
TRIO We did the Deathday dance!
NICK: The Deathday dance
TRIO `Twas surely no romance
NICK: They looked askance
When they were served dead ants
TRIO We took a chance
To see his Deathday dance! 

NICK: See this group of spectral nuns
The party has just begun
The guests include the Fat Friar, 
And the Baron who's bloody glum

NICK, THE FRIAR, & THE BARON
The saws were rockin', all were digging the sounds
Like fingernails on chalkboards, or cats being drowned
The chill grew stronger, for when you're post-death
It's so amusing not to see your breath

TRIO: We did the freeze
RW: We did the Deathday freeze
TRIO: We did the freeze
HG: We flirted with disease
TRIO: `Twas three degrees
HP: We stood around to sneeze
TRIO: Some warm air please! 
We did the Deathday freeze

HG & NICK: Peeves in his bowtie, as the death of the party, 
Saw Myrtle from the girls' room, looking none too hearty 

HP & FRIAR: And she said to Peeves as he started to taunt her

MYRTLE
It's his party, and I'll cry if I want ter
.(exit weeping 
hysterically)

TRIO AND (GHOST TRIO)
She did her whine!
(She did her Deathday whine!)
Her Deathday whine
(She is so borderline)
She did her whine!
(She ought to redesign)
Her Deathday whine
(To something more refined)

FRIAR & BARON
There was nary a howl, there was scarcely a screech 
When Sir Nick ascended to commence his speech
But then Sir Patrick and a dozen more jockies
Thought the time was ripe for a game of Head Hockey

FF & BB: They played their game!
NICK: They played a mean head game!
FF & BB: Put Nick to shame!
NICK: My head's still on its frame
FF & BB: Due to bad aim!
NICK: For which I'm not to blame
FF & BB: We must proclaim
.
TRIO (interrupting, with big insincere smiles)
We are all glad we came! (exit rapidly)

   - CMC





From bafoster at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 16 05:06:31 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:06:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Deathday Bash (filk)
References: <9bdu2q+t71j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADA7DD7.5DCCC937@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16874

Your filks are so great. :)  I know one-line posts are really annoying,
but I just had to say that, since I've enjoyed them all so much. :)

Barbara :)

Caius Marcius wrote:
> 
> The Deathday Bash (from CoS, Chapter 8)
> 
> (To the tune of The Monster Mash)
> 

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Apr 16 06:32:49 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 06:32:49 -0000
Subject: Marauders (was The Old Crowd (was Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <9bdrn1+7lgh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9be3mh+cjcc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16875

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> On a vaguely related note, I wonder sometimes as I write things for 
> the Lexcicon if the term Marauders was ever intended by JKR to be a 
> name for the foursome of James, Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, or if 
> it's meant as a description of the map only: A Map To Use for 
> Marauding, and if you use it for that, you're a Marauder.

Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers
are proud to present 
THE MARAUDER'S MAP

It certainly sounds like only the Map is named Marauder. Lupin 
told Harry that the clique had written the Marauder's Map, but not 
that the clique was named the Marauders or anything else. On ffnet is 
oldish fanfic by Katie Bell in which that group of boys named 
themselves The Magical Mischief-Makers, which is just as justified by 
the text (i.e. not very). But I want to believe they named their 
group The Marauders, because it sounds good and I can claim that Lily 
was the Marauder Mascot (which alliterates better than Marauder Deb).

Steve doesn't make things up, but if anyone else reads this, are 
there any ideas on what the clique of Rosier, Wilkes, Avery, 
Lestrange, the future Mrs. Lestrange (perhaps as mascot), and Snape 
called itself? Sirius probably called them the Slimeballs, but I 
doubt that is what they called themselves. 





From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Apr 16 06:43:30 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:43:30 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Deathday Bash (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9bdu2q+t71j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEJLDHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16876

I can see this one in a tacky music video, or a little movie vignette like
"Putting on the Ritz" in "Young Frankenstein" -- this one is fun!

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: Caius Marcius [mailto:coriolan at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 9:57 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Deathday Bash (filk)


The Deathday Bash (from CoS, Chapter 8)

(To the tune of The Monster Mash)

(The Scene: A roomy dungeon deep within Hogwarts' Castle. SIR
NICHOLAS DE MIMSY-PORPINGTON'S 500th Deathday Party is just getting
underway. Amidst a large assemblage of ghosts, poltergeists, and
various phantasms, are HARRY, RON & HERMIONE, the only living party-
goers, who are here at the invitation of SIR NICHOLAS)
<snip>




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 06:58:32 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 06:58:32 -0000
Subject: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
In-Reply-To: <9bdgkt+1rm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9be56o+vkfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16877

*delurks*

Scott Wrote:
Could Harry be a squib? ... So what would this have to do with the 
gleam in Dumbledore's eye?

My Reply: *ignores simultaneous groans*

Picture this...

James and Lily Potter, Head Boy and Girl of Hogwarts and extremely 
powerful duo have a baby. It turns out that the boy is a Squib, or at 
least not nearly as powerful as the child should be, considering his 
parents. It is a great dissapointment, not to mention that if Death 
Eaters knew about it that the child would have no hope in the future, 
so no one is told that the child is a possible Squib, except for 
mentor and great friend, Albus Dumbledore.

At 15 months of age, the baby's home is attacked by all powerful 
Voldemort. To defend her completely defenceless, Squib child, Lily 
Potter gives up her life, giving her child the ultimate protection. 
Voldemort then turns on the child (who he doesn't know is a Squib) 
and instead of killing the baby, the baby absorbs some of Voldemorts 
power and reflects some onto a weaker Voldemort that comes as close 
to death as is possible for him.

So baby Harry has magical powers and only Dumbledore knows that he 
was born a Squib, which he covers up.

We now have ultimate good Harry, who has non-magical blood but also 
has powers of not just Dark origin, but from Voldemort hinself (which 
in itself is interesting).

In Harry's fourth year, Harry's blood is used to bring back 
Voldemort. But in the blood still is Squibness. Voldemort obviously 
still has powers, but maybe the Squib blood weakens them sufficiently 
so that he isn't as majorly a threat? Maybe with Squib blood he'll be 
defeated more easily or unable to do as much?

I'm not sure if that totally makes sense... but hey, it's a boring 
afternoon and I've got time to think through theories like this :)

========
~*Vicki Granger*~




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 06:58:43 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 06:58:43 -0000
Subject: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
In-Reply-To: <9bdgkt+1rm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9be574+g0eh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16878

*delurks*

Scott Wrote:
Could Harry be a squib? ... So what would this have to do with the 
gleam in Dumbledore's eye?

My Reply: *ignores simultaneous groans*

Picture this...

James and Lily Potter, Head Boy and Girl of Hogwarts and extremely 
powerful duo have a baby. It turns out that the boy is a Squib, or at 
least not nearly as powerful as the child should be, considering his 
parents. It is a great dissapointment, not to mention that if Death 
Eaters knew about it that the child would have no hope in the future, 
so no one is told that the child is a possible Squib, except for 
mentor and great friend, Albus Dumbledore.

At 15 months of age, the baby's home is attacked by all powerful 
Voldemort. To defend her completely defenceless, Squib child, Lily 
Potter gives up her life, giving her child the ultimate protection. 
Voldemort then turns on the child (who he doesn't know is a Squib) 
and instead of killing the baby, the baby absorbs some of Voldemorts 
power and reflects some onto a weaker Voldemort that comes as close 
to death as is possible for him.

So baby Harry has magical powers and only Dumbledore knows that he 
was born a Squib, which he covers up.

We now have ultimate good Harry, who has non-magical blood but also 
has powers of not just Dark origin, but from Voldemort hinself (which 
in itself is interesting).

In Harry's fourth year, Harry's blood is used to bring back 
Voldemort. But in the blood still is Squibness. Voldemort obviously 
still has powers, but maybe the Squib blood weakens them sufficiently 
so that he isn't as majorly a threat? Maybe with Squib blood he'll be 
defeated more easily or unable to do as much?

I'm not sure if that totally makes sense... but hey, it's a boring 
afternoon and I've got time to think through theories like this :)

========
~*Vicki Granger*~




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 07:38:32 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:38:32 +0100
Subject: The Old Crowd /naming The Marauders and the Tri....?
References: <9bdrn1+7lgh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01c301c0c648$51fdb3e0$2e3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16879

Steve said:

<<I may have missed a post or three on this topic, so if this has already
been mentioned, I apologize. But notice that the "old crowd"
 is not capitalized in the book. It isn't necessarily a group in any sort of
official way. Dumbledore could very well be simply saying "Go
get, you know, everybody we know are on our side from back in the Bad
Years." Maybe they were just drinking buddies.>>

I agree.  It's a bit like someone saying to a former workmate, "Remember the
old gang from Grunnings?  Didn't we have a blast playing strip poker in the
toolroom every lunchtime?"  There is no implication that they are all the
same age; just that they all kicked around together in some shape or form.
IMO, the fact that the phrase "old gang" is all in lower case doesn't
preclude a gang of misfits, united against a cause, or with a common
interest.  The Order of the Phoenix could be a special group of people, in
which case the old gang might have been part of it or linked with it,
instead of representing its totality.

Steve also said, lexiconically:

<<On a vaguely related note, I wonder sometimes as I write things for the
Lexcicon if the term Marauders was ever intended by JKR to be a name for the
foursome of James, Sirius, Lupin, and Pettigrew, or if it's meant as a
description of the map only: A Map To Use for Marauding, and if you use it
for that, you're a Marauder. >>

I've often thought about this.... er, well, let's say I've *sometimes*
pondered on this (don't want to seem *too* obsessed).  I think the readers
have taken the 'Marauders' name as a handy shorthand for the makers of the
map, but that it was intended exactly as per your description above.  The
main evidence for this is that it's called The Marauder's Map and not The
Marauders' Map, i.e. aimed at the single user not the four creators.  The
fact that the four of them used the map means they *were* Marauders, but
then Fred, George and Harry would also qualify as Marauders, since they used
the map: Marauders: The Next Generation?

As for Harry, Ron and Hermione, there really is no satisfactory name, is
there?  Let's see - we have:

(a) the triumvirate, which sounds rather religious or mythological
(b) the trio, which makes them sound like singing triplets
(c) the threesome, which leads some fanfic authors to think they are
sleeping together
(d) the three 'whatevers' (insert your own description)
(e) the trinity - again, too holy
(f) the gang of three - political prisoners
(g) the triploid - an alien with three heads
(h) the trisect - wear indigo robes and chant mantras
(i) the tritagonists - pretentious, moi?
(j) the triune - excuse me?
(k) the trine - the thing Eliza Doolittle catches to work
(l) the tripartite - ("now, this is getting silly!")
(m) the trilby ("that's a hat, you fool!")
(n) HRH - um, like, duh!  Her Royal Highness?

Any other suggestions?  Um, I think I've dragged this into OT Chatter
material...

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From gaynor at cheerful.com  Mon Apr 16 08:13:31 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:13:31 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <20010416043541.24717.qmail@web217.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9be9jb+i26g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16880

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:

> Not only is the
> first sentence completely missing, but the French
> versions have condensed these 4 paragraphs into only
> 2. They also completely leave out the bit about Dudley
> trying to stuff his television, video and computer
> into his sports bag.
> 

That's weird. It's in my copy, p46:

 "Dudley pleurnichait a l'arriere, a cause du coup que son pere lui 
avait donne pour les avoir retardes en voulant a tout prix emporter 
sa television, son magnetoscope et son ordinateur dans son sac de 
sport."

I have the Folio Junior paperback edition. Which do you have?

Gaynor




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Apr 16 08:40:24 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:40:24 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] German Audio versions - Snape as DE - Secret-Keeper
In-Reply-To: <000701c0c5f3$c3eba8e0$bc7601d5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIECFCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 16881

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michelle Apostolides [mailto:michelleapostolides at lineone.net]
 
> And can anyone tell me if the German audio books are complete or
> abridged ?

They are complete, and many people say that Rufus Beck even
makes the bad translation bearable. As I said in another post I
think he overdoes the voices a bit, but that is a pure question
of personal taste. But the translation still is *very* bad.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magda Grantwich [mailto:mgrantwich at yahoo.com] 

I wrote:
> > Why are you so sure that Sirius didn't know that Snape was
> > once a DE? 

Magda wrote:
> And on the same page: "...but I just can't see him [Dumbledore]
> letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort."

You're right. I always assumed that Sirius knew at least *something*
about Snape's activities during VWI, but apparently he isn't sure
at all what to think about it. It's time for those audio versions to
arrive to refresh my memory...

> Makes Snape's sneering at Harry as a "celebrity" in earlier books
> more intelligible: here's Snape who's actually done very dangerous
> things for the Right Side and nobody knows about it.

Yes. I always believed that he was the spy who tried to warn the
Potters that V. was after them, even though I'm not of the "Snape
was in love with Lily" camp. And that he was furious that he couldn't
pay his debt to James because he was too late. That's the reason
IMO why he picks on Harry all the time and on the other side tries
to save his life at various reasons.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Catlady [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]

> The Potters were supposed to be in hiding from Voldemort -- surely
> James's ancestral home would be one of the first places Voldemort looked
> -- wouldn't that be a foolish place to hide, even with a Secret Keeper?

Well, Fudge said that V. could have looked for the Potters at Godric's
Hollow for years and would not have found them. I think it doesn't matter
where you hide under the Fidelius Charm because it is impossible to
find you.

> And Sirius must have been hiding, as he was pretending to be the Secret
> Keeper and the Secret Keeper was supposed to be hiding so as not to be
> caught and have the secret tortured out of him, so how was Sirius able
> to go check on Peter? If Peter was also hiding, would that lead anyone
> to suspect that he was the Secret Keeper?

My take on it is that the person under the Fidelius Charm is hidden but
can go anywhere. We are never told how it actually works, and I always
wondered if the charm is cast in a way that only hides you from a specific
person or group of persons. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense IMO. If
you are hidden from the whole world life would be very difficult. 
Fudge also says that Sirius wanted to go into hiding, but apparently
he didn't. And maybe "hiding" in his case wouldn't have meant the
Fidelius Charm but hiding like he is now hiding from the Ministry. If
not, he would have needed a Secret-Keeper himself. And since nobody
seemed to suspect Peter of being the Secret-Keeper, there wasn't a
reason for him to go into hiding. 

There's another point to this: how was it possible for Sirius to check on
the Potters if they were hidden from the whole world? Maybe he went
to their house to see if it was still hidden under the charm (and he knew
where it was so this wasn't a problem), but when he arrived, he saw
immediately that the charm had been broken because the house, or 
better its ruins, had reappeared. But maybe this is just another plot hole.
Any thoughts?

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 09:32:41 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:32:41 -0000
Subject: The Old Crowd /naming The Marauders and the Tri....?
In-Reply-To: <01c301c0c648$51fdb3e0$2e3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bee7p+khju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16882

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
>
> 
> As for Harry, Ron and Hermione, there really is no satisfactory 
name, is
> there?  Let's see - we have:
> 
> (a) the triumvirate, which sounds rather religious or mythological
> (b) the trio, which makes them sound like singing triplets
> (c) the threesome, which leads some fanfic authors to think they are
> sleeping together
> (d) the three 'whatevers' (insert your own description)
> (e) the trinity - again, too holy
> (f) the gang of three - political prisoners
> (g) the triploid - an alien with three heads
> (h) the trisect - wear indigo robes and chant mantras
> (i) the tritagonists - pretentious, moi?
> (j) the triune - excuse me?
> (k) the trine - the thing Eliza Doolittle catches to work
> (l) the tripartite - ("now, this is getting silly!")
> (m) the trilby ("that's a hat, you fool!")
> (n) HRH - um, like, duh!  Her Royal Highness?
> 
> Any other suggestions?  Um, I think I've dragged this into OT 
Chatter
> material...


How about: (o)  the troika

Haggridd




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 09:53:35 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (nizbet_noni at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:53:35 -0000
Subject: Robin Williams movie role
In-Reply-To: <20010415044254.89712.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9befev+kgl5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16883

I agree that he's be perfect as Lupin. I'm rereading PoA atm, purely 
to visualise RW as Lupin, and it's really, really working. He is such 
a talented actor that he could pull it off with no problems. The only 
worry would be that he'd bring too much baggage to the part - most 
people probably still see him as a comedy actor rather than a 
straight one. He's proved (eg Dead Poets Society, Good Will Hunting) 
that he is very good straight actor, but peoples first impressions 
count for a lot. But what I'm more interested in atm is who is going 
to be Lockhart!
Lizzie

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- dasienko at e... wrote:
> > There has been some chatter that the rumor that
> > Robin will appear in 
> > an HP movie is False. But if I were asked to cast
> > him I see him as 
> > Lupin.
> 
> I've heard that Robin Williams won't be appearing in
> the first movie, but I hold out hope for the later
> ones!  I think he'd be perfect in a small role as Sir
> Cadogan.  Can you picture him in armor challenging
> little first years to a duel?  LOL!
> 
> 
> Andrea
> 
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 11:22:33 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F132lHiu3fQtYd0000663f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010416112233.93964.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16884

>>As for your comments about Snape's frustration about Neville just
>>being a hopeless pupil...in Neville's case, he is definitely an
>> extremely bad, cruel and bullying teacher...Snape may well be 
>>trying to get Neville to show his mettle...


When I made this suggestion, I should perhaps have been more clear: I
don't think Snape is consciously trying to toughen Neville up.  It's
just Snape's automatic response to Neville's fear: he's basically
ordering him not to cringe which of course doesn't work. 

Snape is fairly clueless where people's feelings are concerned
because he's so wrapped up in himself.


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 11:27:39 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9bdgqa+mk0j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416112739.5496.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16885

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?<


It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the Yule
Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape is blasting
rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost points to students
caught fooling around is pretty good.


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 11:31:04 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:31:04 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem 
Message-ID: <9bel5o+9fil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16886

Hi,

While reading PoA, I remebered that there were quite a lot of 
questions regarding why such and such person was not viewed on the 
map (why didn't Lupin see the second Harry and Hermione, why didn't 
Fred and George and then Harry see Peter Pettigrew? etc.). 
Well, I had what seemed to me like a brilliant idea, but I haven't 
checked it against all possible evidence: I think that the map only 
shows people/creatures that are moving. I thought of that when Harry 
looked at the map for the first time - it showed Dumbledore *pacing* 
in his room, Mrs. Norris walking somewhere, etc. 
If this is true, then the map didn't show the second Harry and 
Hermione because they were sitting under the trees, they weren't 
moving about. Also Pettigrew - it's quite reasonble to suppose that 
all the times the map was used, he wasn't moving (Ron did say all he 
did was sleep and eat, right?). 

Comments?

Naama




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 11:36:10 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draco and Lucius
In-Reply-To: <9bdofp+c65d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416113610.71346.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16887

>>Voldemort strikes me as distinctly being the type 
>>to demand loyalty to
>> himself above all others, family included.
 

I agree with this. 


> Now that I don't see.  I can't see Lucius Malfoy putting Voldemort 
> above Draco.  I know some people see it that way but I don't. 
 

Lucius loves his dear little creep, uh, I mean, little boy just like
any dad does.  Draco certainly doesn't seem to be afraid of him and
feels free to ask him questions and whines about presents anticipated
in public places.  

On the other hand, Lucius is probably dumb enough to believe that he
can somehow have his cake and eat it too, that he will be able to get
around Lord V. and promote his family interests during the coming
days of Dark Victory.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon Apr 16 11:53:16 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:53:16 -0000
Subject: Defending Snape (was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking)
In-Reply-To: <20010416112233.93964.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bemfc+roet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16888

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >>As for your comments about Snape's frustration about Neville just
> >>being a hopeless pupil...in Neville's case, he is definitely an
> >> extremely bad, cruel and bullying teacher...Snape may well be 
> >>trying to get Neville to show his mettle...
> 
> 
> When I made this suggestion, I should perhaps have been more clear: 
I
> don't think Snape is consciously trying to toughen Neville up.  It's
> just Snape's automatic response to Neville's fear: he's basically
> ordering him not to cringe which of course doesn't work. 
> 
> Snape is fairly clueless where people's feelings are concerned
> because he's so wrapped up in himself.
> 
> 
> _I have to disagree a bit with what you say about Severus.  I think 
Severus doesn't suffer fools gladly (not to say Neville's a fool, but 
let's face it, he does come across as pretty hopeless most of the 
time)and it frustrates him (Severus) when students just *don't get 
it*, so to speak.  Potions is a subtle art and it takes patience and 
care.  I also don't really think Severus is wrapped up in himself.  I 
have a feeling that his demeanour hides a great deal of passion--and 
a great deal of hurt somewhere in his past (and not just his DE 
past).  People who have been hurt or disappointed by people tend to 
put up walls so that it won't happen again.  

Just my 2 galleons~

Peace & Plenty, 
Parker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  Severus Snape, from my as-
yet untitled fanfic
----------------------------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From kel4 at columbia.edu  Mon Apr 16 12:20:44 2001
From: kel4 at columbia.edu (kel4 at columbia.edu)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:20:44 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bel5o+9fil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9beo2s+3g34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16889

I thought of this potential solution as well, but there is a scene 
when Harry is coming back from Hogsmeade and checks the map to see 
where Snape is, and he is "in his office" or something like that and I 
don't think it implied he was moving.  But, I don't have the book with 
me at the moment and can't check -- anyone?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> While reading PoA, I remebered that there were quite a lot of 
> questions regarding why such and such person was not viewed on the 
> map (why didn't Lupin see the second Harry and Hermione, why didn't 
> Fred and George and then Harry see Peter Pettigrew? etc.). 
> Well, I had what seemed to me like a brilliant idea, but I haven't 
> checked it against all possible evidence: I think that the map only 
> shows people/creatures that are moving. I thought of that when Harry 
> looked at the map for the first time - it showed Dumbledore *pacing* 
> in his room, Mrs. Norris walking somewhere, etc. 
> If this is true, then the map didn't show the second Harry and 
> Hermione because they were sitting under the trees, they weren't 
> moving about. Also Pettigrew - it's quite reasonble to suppose that 
> all the times the map was used, he wasn't moving (Ron did say all he 
> did was sleep and eat, right?). 
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Naama




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 13:08:13 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:08:13 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bel5o+9fil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9beqrt+muud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16890

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> While reading PoA, I remebered that there were quite a lot of 
> questions regarding why such and such person was not viewed on the 
> map (why didn't Lupin see the second Harry and Hermione, why didn't 
> Fred and George and then Harry see Peter Pettigrew? etc.). 
> Well, I had what seemed to me like a brilliant idea, but I haven't 
> checked it against all possible evidence: I think that the map only 
> shows people/creatures that are moving. I thought of that when Harry 
> looked at the map for the first time - it showed Dumbledore *pacing* 
> in his room, Mrs. Norris walking somewhere, etc. 
> If this is true, then the map didn't show the second Harry and 
> Hermione because they were sitting under the trees, they weren't 
> moving about. Also Pettigrew - it's quite reasonble to suppose that 
> all the times the map was used, he wasn't moving (Ron did say all he 
> did was sleep and eat, right?). 
> 
>

One problem with this is that Lupin DID see Pettigrew and Ron being 
dragged into the tree by Sirius-- Pettigrew was a rat inside Ron's 
pocket at the time and not moving at all.

I too have mulled about why he would not see two Harrys, etc. If Harry 
were just witnessing the past with no power to change things (ala the 
pensieve) it would make sense. Maybe the map only shows people who 
properly belong to THIS time? In which case I see a major opportunity 
for plot twists. I suspect thought that this was an oversight.

I wonder: Does JKR have ANY idea of some of these things we obsessed 
ones dig up? Sheeeezzz.... 

--Suzanne




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 13:10:55 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:10:55 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bel5o+9fil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ber0v+ca97@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16891


> 
> Comments?
> 
> Naama

Hi, Naama -

This definitely has come up before, and I thought that perhaps the 
map doesn't show every corner in the castle every time one looks at 
it.  I like your theory about what is moving is shown on the map, but 
I also think that the map doesn't always show each and every thing.  
Harry also does not look for every single person, creature or ghost 
when he uses the map!

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************************




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 13:12:13 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:12:13 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Defending Snape
References: <9bemfc+roet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002901c0c676$dbd84c00$ea2907d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16892

Another point: When he decided to leave the DE because he noticed *what*
they really presented, he lost probably a huge part of his life. And all he
got from it was pain and suffering. If people that trusted you, were your
friends, stop to do that even if you give up what you thought was a vital
cause for them, it hurts. And it shatters your whole world.

That's basically what happened to him. I think Dumbledore, Hagrid and
McGonaggal are the ones who trust him, believe in him, but even then he had
to show that he deserved that trust (naturally, since he was on "the other
side" for quite some time).

He has lost the meaning in his life after Voldemort disappeared. He helped a
great deal, and doesn't get credit, people mistrust him, don't like him, see
him as the traitor. Everyone mourns the Potters, and the Longbottoms, they
are considered the heros, although Severus probably had to go through things
and saw things that were harder to bear, especially if you didn't have
someone to back you up and be there for you.

His teaching job is all he has left now. And because of that, and because he
saw how wrong his rule-breaking with the DE was, he is strict and wante his
students to adhere to rules. Literally, without thinking. He probably thinks
that if he made the wrong decision, they could do it too, and that's why
they have to learn to listen and behave.

His tolerance for people like Neville is therefore pretty low because he
doesn't want to put up with someone who obviously gets the easiest things
wrong.

It's also a source for his grudge against Harry and the Marauders as a
whole - they break/broke rules all the time and never got punished. He
doesn't see that they break the right rules, so to speak, and just wants to
prevent their rule-breaking - because when he did it he lost everything, and
they don't, they only gain.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye.

~ Antoine de Saint-Exupry


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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 13:27:37 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:27:37 -0000
Subject: Draco and Lucius
In-Reply-To: <20010416113610.71346.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bes09+s1r6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16893

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >>Voldemort strikes me as distinctly being the type 
> >>to demand loyalty to
> >> himself above all others, family included.
>  
> 
> I agree with this. 
> 
> 
> > Now that I don't see.  I can't see Lucius Malfoy putting Voldemort 
> > above Draco.  I know some people see it that way but I don't. 
>  
> 
> Lucius loves his dear little creep, uh, I mean, little boy just like
> any dad does.  Draco certainly doesn't seem to be afraid of him and
> feels free to ask him questions and whines about presents 
anticipated
> in public places.  
> 
> On the other hand, Lucius is probably dumb enough to believe that he
> can somehow have his cake and eat it too, that he will be able to 
get
> around Lord V. and promote his family interests during the coming
> days of Dark Victory.


A few things that I take note of about Lucius: 

1.)   His actions in CoS were not in service to Voldemort but rather 
MADE USE OF Voldemort's artifacts (and the shadow of his old self, as 
it were)to accomplish his own hateful ends. He wanted to strike a blow 
against muggles, dispose of Dumbledore, and above all to harm the 
Weasley family and sbotage Arthur's Muggle Protection Act. (I 
personally am more creeped out by Lucius at this point than I am 
Voldemort-- look at how he used Ginny! Ugh!)

Lucius clearly has his OWN agenda which has little to do with Voldy.

2.)   When the Dark Lord fell, Lucius was (I think I read this in 
PS/SS) one of the first to recant. His priority was clearly to cover 
his own butt and hold onto what power he has.

Lucius is pragmatic and knows how to make use of the system/powerful 
people. TYhis includes Voldy.

3.)    Although I would hesitate to call him a loving father given his 
verbal humiliation of Draco in CoS, he clearly thinks highly of the 
Malfoy blood and has ambitions for his son. Narcissa seems to 
genuinely love her son. 

I don't think Malfoy would sacrifice Draco for Voldy's ends-- but like 
Crouch Sr., he might to serve his own image. Somehow though I do not 
see this in the cards.

What I do see:  I think there is going to be some power conflicts 
between Malfoy and the other Deatheaters who were in Azkaban. I don't 
think they are going to be in a good mood when they get out of 
Azkaban, and like Crouch Jr. I think they will be filled with 
vindictive rage at those DEs who escaped punishment. 

I think they will indeed be torn between their very real loyalty to 
Voldermort and their confusion over WHY he did not torture the DEs who 
betrayed him. Lucius meanwhile will have his eye on furthering 
himself and his goals. He'll be working ahrd. It is going to get 
interesting.

I wonder how much Sirius knows about the Lestranges, et. al., seeing 
that he was in the same prison with them for twelve years?

--Suzanne








From swirlyspike at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 13:27:41 2001
From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:27:41 -0000
Subject: Robin Williams movie role
In-Reply-To: <9befev+kgl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bes0d+m9jd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16894

I see him as a little too old for Lupin...isn't Lupin supposed to be 
in his mid thirties?

And I like the idea of him being some sort of comedy part..I prefer 
his comedy acting to his serious.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 13:31:49 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:31:49 -0000
Subject: Robin Williams movie role
In-Reply-To: <9befev+kgl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bes85+710k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16895

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nizbet_noni at h... wrote:
> I agree that he's be perfect as Lupin. I'm rereading PoA atm, purely 
> to visualise RW as Lupin, and it's really, really working. 

I agree-- this is now how I imagine Lupin. However, I am given to 
understand that JKRs adamant about her "British actors only" clause. I 
would be very surprised if any Americans got in.

Lockhart:  I imagine Kenneth Branagh! Bleached blonde again, of 
course!

Sirius:  I imagine Gabriel Byrne. Yummmmmm..... Yes he is a bot old 
for the role, but if Rickman can be Snape, why not?


--Suzanne




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 13:45:04 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:45:04 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <20010416112739.5496.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bet10+c490@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16896

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?<
> 
> 
> It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the Yule
> Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape is 
blasting
> rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost points to 
students
> caught fooling around is pretty good.
> 
 Yeah, that is good! And poor Harry and Ron are there all alone...

Claire




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Apr 16 13:50:30 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:50:30 -0000
Subject: Draco and Lucius
In-Reply-To: <20010416113610.71346.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9betb6+se3s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16897

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >>Voldemort strikes me as distinctly being the type 
> >>to demand loyalty to
> >> himself above all others, family included.
>  
> 
> I agree with this. 
> 
> 
> > Now that I don't see.  I can't see Lucius Malfoy putting 
Voldemort 
> > above Draco.  I know some people see it that way but I don't. 
>  
> 
> Lucius loves his dear little creep, uh, I mean, little boy just like
> any dad does.  Draco certainly doesn't seem to be afraid of him and
> feels free to ask him questions and whines about presents 
anticipated
> in public places.  

I have to disagree with this (what? you're surprised?) - We've seen 
*3* scenes in the book where Draco & Lucius interact - in Mr Borgin's 
shop, in FLourish & Blotts and at the Quidditch World Cup.
In Mr Borgin's, Lucius criticizes Draco in front of Mr Borgin, and at 
that point, Draco shuts up completely (for a bit) - and it's possible 
that neither of them consider Mr Borgin to be the "public" - he's 
just a storekeeper. Of course, *they* don't know that he's saying 
nasty things about Lucius behind his back.
In Flourish & Blotts, Draco doesn't say anything while Lucius is 
nearby. He does before, but not during.
In the Top Box, Draco does not have *one* line of dialogue. He smirks 
a bit, but he just sits between his parents, no friends hanging out 
with him, and doesn't say anything. 

Behind his back, Draco says praiseworthy things, says he's going to 
ask about this, and demand that, but the closest he comes to actually 
*asking* for anything is the statement at Mr Borgin's, that he 
thought they were going to look at racing brooms. I really don't see 
that one sentence as enough of a basis for a conclusion that draco 
isn't afraid of him. 

> 
> On the other hand, Lucius is probably dumb enough to believe that he
> can somehow have his cake and eat it too, that he will be able to 
get
> around Lord V. and promote his family interests during the coming
> days of Dark Victory.
Oh, I think this is probably true, too. Lucius strikes me as the type 
who doesn't want Voldemort to control Draco. That's his sport, not 
anyone else's




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Apr 16 13:57:32 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:57:32 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9beo2s+3g34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9betoc+l0e7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16898

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., kel4 at c... wrote:
> I thought of this potential solution as well, but there is a scene 
> when Harry is coming back from Hogsmeade and checks the map to see 
> where Snape is, and he is "in his office" or something like that 
and I 
> don't think it implied he was moving.  But, I don't have the book 
with 
> me at the moment and can't check -- anyone?
> 
"The tiny dot labeled Severus Snape was now back in its office" P. 
277, US edition. 
And on page 193, again of the US edition, it shows Harry standing 
next to the humpbacked witch; he's not moving. It also shows him 
tapping it and saying Dissendium, even though he hasn't done either 
of those things. 

Suzanne wrote:
> I too have mulled about why he would not see two Harrys, etc. 
> If Harry 
> were just witnessing the past with no power to change things (ala 
the 
> pensieve) it would make sense. Maybe the map only shows people who 
> properly belong to THIS time? In which case I see a major 
opportunity 
> for plot twists. I suspect thought that this was an oversight.

Lupin says on page 347 that he thought the map was "malfunctioning" - 
that may be because he saw 2 harrys and 2 hermiones. Of course, it's 
possible that they were *off map* when they were hiding on the edge 
of the forbidden forrest, as they might have been when Lupin looked 
at the map.  




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:04:27 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sirius - Has anyone noted this?
In-Reply-To: <9bc46j+hslb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416140427.18778.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16899

--- Indigo <indigo at indigosky.net> wrote:
> Which begs the question (almost by the way) -- how
> did Ron explain 
> suddenly ending up with the owl soon to be known as
> Pigwidgeon?  As 
> book 4 begins, Harry and company are still scurrying
> off to be alone 
> and speak softly about Sirius, so Molly doesn't yet
> know.

Hmm, that's an interesting question.  He might just
tell an modified version of the truth - a friend of
Harry's sent it with a message and said he could keep
it.  No reason to add that the "friend" is an escaped
convict. ;)  Or maybe he says that Harry or Hermione
got it for him because Scabbers died.  (Hermione was
so guilty about Crookshanks eating Scabbers she bought
him an owl?)  He had to explain Scabbers disappearing
too.

> Maybe the Weasleys knew all along because Dumbledore
> had to send an 
> owl to them explaining how Ron's leg got broken? 

Well, Madam Pomfrey can mend broken bones in "about a
second", according to Harry, so Dumbledore didn't
necessarily have to explain anything, since Ron
wouldn't be *going home* with a broken leg.  Even if
he did, it's not *that* uncommon for a 13 year old boy
to break his leg, especially with all the trouble he
and Harry manage to get into.  They would probably
just sigh and say, "Again?" <g>


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:05:45 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:05:45 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9bet10+c490@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9beu7p+noso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16900

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > > Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?<
> > 
> > 
> > It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the 
Yule
> > Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape is 
> blasting
> > rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost points to 
> students
> > caught fooling around is pretty good.
> > 
>  Yeah, that is good! And poor Harry and Ron are there all alone...
> 
> Claire

LOL, sorry but I think the Ron/Harry slash fans are having a field day 
with this scene!

--Suzanne




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:12:38 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:12:38 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pigwidgeon, Molly and Sirius (was: Has anyone noted this?)
References: <20010416140427.18778.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c0c67f$63e879a0$ea2907d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 16901

> Maybe the Weasleys knew all along because Dumbledore
> had to send an
> owl to them explaining how Ron's leg got broken?

Molly couldn't have known about Sirius because she's so shocked when he
transforms at the end of GoF to face Snape. And Dumbledore didn't know about
Pigwidgeon becaues Ron only got him at the end of PoA when they were already
on their way home.

If Ron managed to hide his read ears he probably just came up wioth some
half-truths while Molly and Arthur were simply relived he wasn't going to
whine about getting a new animal.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Even from a dark night songs of beauty can be born.

~Maryanne Radmacher-Hershey



_________________________________________________________
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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 14:26:46 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:26:46 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9betoc+l0e7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bevf6+mqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16902

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kel4 at c... wrote:
> > I thought of this potential solution as well, but there is a 
scene 
> > when Harry is coming back from Hogsmeade and checks the map to 
see 
> > where Snape is, and he is "in his office" or something like that 
> and I 
> > don't think it implied he was moving.  But, I don't have the book 
> with 
> > me at the moment and can't check -- anyone?
> > 
> "The tiny dot labeled Severus Snape was now back in its office" P. 
> 277, US edition. 
> And on page 193, again of the US edition, it shows Harry standing 
> next to the humpbacked witch; he's not moving. It also shows him 
> tapping it and saying Dissendium, even though he hasn't done either 
> of those things. 
> 
I thought of both these points. The first is not conclusive - Snape 
could be just entering his office, or moving about there (especially 
if he had just arrived there). 
The second point is not relevant, IMO. It's a different functionality 
of the map - instructing the current marauder on how to proceed. It's 
separate from the show-whether-the-coast-is-clear functionality.


It makes sense that the map would only show people who are moving, 
because that's the information the would-be marauder needs. 


Naama, unshaken as yet.





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:36:05 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]- French versions
In-Reply-To: <9be9jb+i26g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416143605.28499.qmail@web204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16903

--- Gaynor Thomas <gaynor at cheerful.com> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend
> <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> 
> > Not only is the
> > first sentence completely missing, but the French
> > versions have condensed these 4 paragraphs into
> only
> > 2. They also completely leave out the bit about
> Dudley
> > trying to stuff his television, video and computer
> > into his sports bag.
> > 
> 
> That's weird. It's in my copy, p46:
> 
>  "Dudley pleurnichait a l'arriere, a cause du coup
> que son pere lui 
> avait donne pour les avoir retardes en voulant a
> tout prix emporter 
> sa television, son magnetoscope et son ordinateur
> dans son sac de 
> sport."
> 
> I have the Folio Junior paperback edition. Which do
> you have?
> 
> Gaynor
> 
Interesting, I have the same edition. Could there be
more than one version in French? Mine is copyright
1998 for the translation. Is yours a more recent
translation, I wonder? The scenes in question are on
pages 52 and 53 of my book.

'Je veux tout le monde pret a partir dans cinq
minutes. On s'en va. Emportez simplement quelques
vetements, et pas de discussion!'
'Dix minutes plus tard, ils etaient dans la voiture
qui roulait, roulait, roulait. La tante Petunia
elle-meme n'osait pas demander a son mari ou il
comptait les emmener. Ils roulerent ainsi toute la
journee sans prendre le temp de s'arreter pour boire
ou manger quelque chose. A la tombee du jour, Dudley
poussa de longs hurlements. Il avait faim, il avait
rate cinq emissions de television qu'il tenait
absolument a voir et il n'avait jamais passe autant de
temps sans pulveriser un extraterrestre sur son
ordinateur.'

How does this read in your version?

Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 14:36:35 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:36:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP goes PC?
In-Reply-To: <3AD9F977.DEBA72E2@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010416143635.66854.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16904

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Has no one else thought that the house elf/human
> relationship might be a
> symbiotic one? Such things are totally natural,
> occurring all over
> everywhere, where two different species have evolved
> to operate together
> (clown fish and anemone spring to mind, but there's
> scads of others).
> The house elves don't exactly run off at the mouth
> about what they get
> out of it, but that whole "keeping the secrets"
> thing hints that there's
> lots more to the relationship than we know.

An excellent analogy, Amanda.  When I read about the
house elves, I drew an analogy to another series I
read regularly, Mercedes Lackey's Velgarth series. 
One group of people, the Hawkbrothers, have a race of
lizard-like creatures who serve them called the
Hertasi.  However, it's explained that it's really a
two-way relationship.  The hertasi take care of the
Hawkbrothers' homes and clothing, and in return to
Hawkbrothers provide protection for the hertasi. 
Without the Hawkbrothers, the hertasi would have to
spend all their time eking out a basic survival
instead of developing a flourishing society.  I
thought of something similar for house elf/wizard
relationship.


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Apr 16 14:42:35 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:42:35 -0400
Subject: HP morally questionable?  Discuss...
Message-ID: <00c201c0c683$9a881980$0a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 16905

Just read the first issue of Emmaus Bible College's magazine JOURNEY and
there's an HP article in it.  Now, before everybody flips out, this is
overall a very positive article which says a lot more good things about HP
than not.  However, the author does have a concern about the HP books, and
he expresses it as follows:

"In each of the stories there is some force of evil which threatens Harry or
his friends, and the force is not defeated until Harry breaks some rules or
tells some lies.  The consequence of his rule-breaking and lying is victory
and success; indeed, victory in some measure *depends* on his misbehaviour."

He goes on to say:

"This concept is reinforced by some of the characterizations in the books.
The authority figures who are easy-going and laissez-faire, who are happy to
overlook Harry's misconduct -- characters such as Headmaster Dumbledore --
are likeable, trustworthy, and competent.  But those authority figures who
insist on obedience to the rules and who offer to punish misbehaviour --
characters such as Professor Snape -- are portrayed as sinister and
meddlesome. ... Out-smarting and humiliating [characters like Argus Filch
and Mrs. Norris] is positively a virtue. ... but the moral laws [of a good
story should] require that a character's actions bring consequences."

After that he goes on to say a lot of positive things about the HP books:
those are really his only criticisms.  He dismisses the charges of occultism
early in the article, and he certainly doesn't say that he thinks a
responsible parent will or should reject HP.

But I did find that those criticisms got me thinking.  So I'd be interested
to know what others have to say about the following questions raised by this
article:

1.  Is it true that "in each of the stories" evil would not be defeated
unless Harry broke school rules and/or told lies?

2.  Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct," as charged?

My personal response would be "no" to both questions.

With regard to #1, it *is* true that Harry often chooses to break rules and
sometimes tells lies (or fails to tell the whole truth).  And it is also
true that in the end he defeats evil.  But to say that the evil could not
have been defeated had Harry *not* broken the rules or told lies is, I
think, making an unwarranted assumption.

We don't know what would have happened in SS/PS if Harry had gone straight
to Dumbledore, told him the whole story, and enlisted his help.  In CoS
Harry was on his own, because Dumbledore wasn't there to consult.  In PoA,
Buckbeak and Sirius are rescued with Dumbledore's knowledge and with his
full cooperation -- in fact he practically tells Harry what to do.  And in
GoF, I don't recall that Harry's success in the tournament or his escape
from Voldemort had anything to do with his breaking rules or telling lies.

In regard to #2, Dumbledore doesn't jump all over Harry for every
school-rule infraction, true.  But D. appears to represent the spirit of the
law rather than its letter; he takes into account Harry's motives and he
also doesn't waste time fussing over trifles.  But he does admonish Harry
about moral issues; he does warn him about dangerous behaviour; and he does
even punish him on occasion.  By contrast, Snape and Filch are obsessed with
rules *as rules* rather than the moral principles that they represent.  They
are legalists, as it were, who look at the outward appearance rather than
the heart.  That's how a selfish and malicious git like Draco Malfoy can
stay in Snape's good graces (in appearance, anyway), simply by not allowing
himself to be caught openly breaking school rules.

Those are just some superficial observations; I'd be interested to hear more
from others.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Apr 16 14:51:56 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:51:56 -0000
Subject: Neville grandmother
Message-ID: <9bf0uc+nlf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16906

This must have been discussed...but I couldn?t find it...I?d like the 
thread to it, if it?s the case, please :)

What if Nevilles grandmother comes along as the new DADA-teacher? I 
always pictured her as quite competent...part of a great 
wizardingfamily, much gratified when her grandson turned out to 
possess at least a small amount of magical power, which to me 
indicate that she thinks highly of magic and so might able to perform 
quite a lot herself. She also seems to be "not to be fooled around 
with" (all the way from her hat (and decoration:)! to her rather 
severe manners (the little we know of them; at least towards Neville) 
which to me is teacher-material (one sort). She might even be a part 
of the "old crowd" (as Nevilles parents) and thereby possessing a lot 
of DADA-practise. Not to mentione she is female...um *apparently 
desperatly trying to back up her idea :)*

I could picture some fun scenes involving Grams and Draco (if they 
would ever meet) perhaps with an amused Neville as bystander... or 
something about the look in Snapes face whenever he sets eyes on on 
her dress/hat.

/Jennifer





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 15:04:08 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:04:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9beu7p+noso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416150408.52463.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16907

>>> It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the 
>>> Yule Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape is

>>> blasting rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost 
>>> points to students caught fooling around is pretty good.

>>  Yeah, that is good! And poor Harry and Ron are there all
>>  alone...
 
> LOL, sorry but I think the Ron/Harry slash fans are having a field
> day with this scene!
 

Maybe that's why Snape snarls "And what are you two doing?"  What
answer was he expecting?


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 15:29:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:29:28 -0000
Subject: House-elves, TWT, Prefects, Sirius losing shape, Ron, MWPP/Trio
Message-ID: <9bf34o+g6mj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16908

Whew!  Catching up on a pile o' posts.

Scott wrote plaintively:

>Does anyone remember me? 

But of course!  So good to have you back, Scott.

>In the US civil war didn't escaped slaves who had fled to the
>North then join the Union army and fight against the south?

Yes--also freed slaves and lots of black freemen who had lived in the 
north for years.  

No parallel is exact, but the house-elves status seems not as bad as 
(US) slaves' to me.  If wizards could, for example, murder house-elves 
with impunity, as slaveowners could slaves, we'd have heard about it 
from Hermione.  The elves' situation seems more like 
African-Americans' before Civil Rights, or like women's before women's 
rights--or perhaps worse than that, since it is referred to as 
enslavement and involves unpaid labor (women and Blacks did at least 
get paid; they just got paid less than white men who did the same 
work).  Somewhere between that and the kind of slavery practiced in 
the US up until the 19th century.

Perhaps this will make their behavior more comprehensible to those who 
find it improbable that slaves would be so unwilling to challenge the 
institution of slavery (I don't find it incomprehensible, 
personally--there are always those who fear that things =could= be 
worse, and what's more, they're usually right).  In every liberation 
movement, there are vociferous opponents from within the very group 
that is being oppressed.  Some of the most vocal opponents of women's 
suffrage were women, who argued that it would lose them what status 
they had in society, that the health of society depended on a division 
between men (public citizens) and women (keepers of the home), that it 
was unnatural and unwomanly to participate in public life, etc. etc.

No matter what your oppression, there's almost always something to 
lose.  Women did stand to lose something with equal rights:  we're no 
longer regarded as deserving of kid-glove treatment, for example.  I 
say good riddance to that (and it was always half a myth anyway, since 
domestic violence, desertion, refusal of financial support, etc. were 
rampant), but I can sympathize with those who didn't want to challenge 
the system.  It doesn't mean the system shouldn't be challenged.  
Amanda, there's symbiosis and then there's the specific form 
of symbiosis called parasitism; that's the biological parallel that 
comes to mind for me.  Symbiotic, but benefitting one of the parties 
much more than the other.  

Magda wrote:

>GoF bugs me in a way that none of the earlier books did and it's
>because the darn plot just sprawls all over the place.  I just
>couldn't swallow a TWT that lasted the duration of the school year. 

The plot is definitely the most complicated and sprawling, but the 
more I read it (I think it's been 4 times now) the more I think it all 
hangs together just fine (though that final, crucial matter of needing 
the Cup to be a Portkey still seems like a stretch to me).  The 
all-year TWT never bothered me.  I figure it is so exhausting and 
demanding for the champions that the events have to be a few months 
apart.  Also, if the idea really is to foster international 
cooperation, it would make sense for them to use the TWT as an 
all-year immersion for the visiting groups.  This would be stronger if 
we actually saw the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons students taking 
classes.  They appear to have spent their year eating bonbons and 
occasionally showing up at a ball or the library.

Florence wrote re: the French version:

>The largest deviation I've run into so far is when Harry asks Ron 
what 
>prefects are and gets a short explanation.

Ooh, tell us!  You may help clear up one of the Great Abiding 
Mysteries of HP:

Why Did Voldemort Try to Kill Baby Harry?
What Did Snape Do the Night of June 24, 1995?
and
What the *&$^# Do Prefects Do, Anyway?

Monika wrote:

>BTW, how do you think they forced him back into
>human form near the lake? That always puzzled me a bit. I think
>he was too weak to resist them any longer and had lost his
>immunity because of the new hope he had gathered, but I'd 
>really like to hear if someone has an idea why dementors are
>able to force an animagus to back into human form.

I imagine it's not so much forcing him into human form as draining his 
magical power.  "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his 
powers if he is left with them too long..." (PoA 10).  He has held 
onto that power, but surrounded by "at least a hundred" Dementors (PoA 
20), he can't maintain his transformation.

Penny, soon-to-be-mother of the most powerful witch of the next 
generation (Penny, some free advice:  if a man with red eyes knocks on 
the door, don't open it), wrote:

>I also think it's pretty clear that he was likely trying
>to make overtures at an apology that evening, since, as someone said,
>why else would he wander down to the common room?

He also says something like, "I just wondered where you--" and then 
switches gears, no doubt too proud to say that he went looking for 
Harry because he woke up at 1 a.m. and was worried about him.  I think 
this quote makes it very clear that he didn't come down to pick a 
fight, or to go to the loo either.

Catlady Rita wrote:

>Ron, as you pointed out, has an ambition not to be poor any more. 
He's
>old enough to be working on that ambition.

True.  I just don't share Penny's view that he is not a good student. 
 By contrast with Hermione, neither he nor Harry is great shakes, but 
as far as I see, they are both quite good students.  They do do their 
homework (so they copy from each other--welcome to 8th grade), never 
cut class despite threatening to do so, etc.  In PS/SS it says Harry 
and Ron got good marks, "to their great surprise" (ch 17); I take the 
surprise with a grain of salt, knowing that Harry underestimates his 
own ability.  Remember, we're getting all this from the POV of a kid 
who actually says in all seriousness that he hasn't got any strengths 
besides Quidditch (GoF, when Moody feeds him the dragon hints).  Come 
on--talk about distorted self-esteem!  The Sorting Hat told him from 
day one that he was very talented.

Schools are full of kids who are never tiptop of their classes but 
consistently get A's.  When class rank comes out and they are in the 
top 10, they're surprised.  I think it's as likely that Ron, like 
Harry, is one of these as it is that he's an underachiever.

Neil wrote:

>As for Harry, Ron and Hermione, there really is no satisfactory name, 
is
>there?  Let's see - we have:
>
>(a)-(n) snipped
>
>Any other suggestions?  Um, I think I've dragged this into OT Chatter
>material...

Nah, let's keep it here.  I second Haggridd's recommendation:

(o) the troika, making it sound as if they are going to stage a coup 
at the MOM--which perhaps they are.

Great point about the Marauder's vs. Marauders' (this is where grammar 
really makes a difference).  I never really thought that MWPP referred 
to themselves as the Marauders, any more than HRH (lol!) refer to 
themselves as The Trio.  It's purely fan shorthand.  

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 . . . summoning the memory of the day I had 
 been voted President of the local Gobstones 
 Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.  
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr 16 15:30:54 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:30:54 -0000
Subject: Neville grandmother
In-Reply-To: <9bf0uc+nlf2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf37e+dfq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16909

I figure the old witch HAS to be important somehow, if for no other 
reason than the fact that we aren't ever told her name. That's 
suspicious as heck when it comes from JKR.

Steve Vander Ark @school, working sort of
the Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about the Longbottom family
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Apr 16 15:35:05 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:35:05 -0000
Subject: House-elves, TWT, Prefects, Sirius losing shape, Ron, MWPP/Trio
In-Reply-To: <9bf34o+g6mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf3f9+67e7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16910

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> The plot is definitely the most complicated and sprawling, but the 
> more I read it (I think it's been 4 times now) the more I think it 
all 
> hangs together just fine (though that final, crucial matter of 
needing 
> the Cup to be a Portkey still seems like a stretch to me).  The 
> all-year TWT never bothered me.  I figure it is so exhausting and 
> demanding for the champions that the events have to be a few months 
> apart.  Also, if the idea really is to foster international 
> cooperation, it would make sense for them to use the TWT as an 
> all-year immersion for the visiting groups.  This would be stronger 
if 
> we actually saw the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons students taking 
> classes.  They appear to have spent their year eating bonbons and 
> occasionally showing up at a ball or the library.
> ----------------------------------------------

And Krum spent a lot of time jumping in & out of the lake. 
I agree with you, Amy - just a one liner from Fred or George that the 
veela-girl from Beauxbatons was proving to be a major distraction 
when they have Herbology with the Ravenclaws & Beauxbatons students, 
or that they were supposed to have DaDA with the Slytherins and 
Durmstrang students, but the Durmstrangers got to be exempt and were 
all working  on a project with Karkaroff - isn't that odd? - would 
have gone a long way.
I do suspect, though, that if they did take classes with the Hogwarts 
students, they were probably taken with 6th and 7th years, and would 
never intersect with the 4th years in the classrom. It would've been 
awkward if they had. 




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 15:49:44 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:49:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville grandmother
References: <9bf37e+dfq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001801c0c68c$dc0e0000$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16911

(Side note, do you know if you click all, you get two addresses in the TO
section, and not just one?  That might explain some of the double-postings!)



From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>

> I figure the old witch HAS to be important somehow, if for no other
> reason than the fact that we aren't ever told her name. That's
> suspicious as heck when it comes from JKR.
>


Steve, we never learned what Hermione's parents' names are, either, have we?
Not that I recall....

(Please, call me on this if you know the answer!)

We learned Ron's, Draco's, Harry's assorted lot (lol!), but not hers.

Another odd one?

Dee



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 15:57:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:57:05 -0000
Subject: Harry sketch was Re: ADMIN/X-POST: Update on scheduled weekly discussions...
In-Reply-To: <015701c0c58c$bdf02860$a93570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bf4oh+eu92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16912

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> IT'S HARRY FORTNIGHT UNTIL 29TH APRIL!!
> 
> Firstly, a reminder that from Monday it's 'Harry Fortnight' on 
HPfGU!
> Joywitch will be posting a sketch on Harry Potter to lead off the
> discussions, so look out for that

Well, ur, ehem, uh, Joywitch has been a little busy lately.  Repairs 
to the roof of the gingerbread house, lots of rain lately, you know, 
and, well, you see, uh, the dog ate the first draft, yeh, it was the 
dog, and so anyway the Harry Potter character sketch will be a little 
late.

I will try to post it late tonight.  Sorry.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*






From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 16:06:59 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:06:59 -0000
Subject: Harry sketch was Re: ADMIN/X-POST: Update on scheduled weekly discussions...
In-Reply-To: <9bf4oh+eu92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf5b3+p9kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16913

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> 
> > IT'S HARRY FORTNIGHT UNTIL 29TH APRIL!!
> > 
> > Firstly, a reminder that from Monday it's 'Harry Fortnight' on 
> HPfGU!
> > Joywitch will be posting a sketch on Harry Potter to lead off the
> > discussions, so look out for that
> 
> Well, ur, ehem, uh, Joywitch has been a little busy lately.  
Repairs 
> to the roof of the gingerbread house, lots of rain lately, you 
know, 
> and, well, you see, uh, the dog ate the first draft, yeh, it was 
the 
> dog, and so anyway the Harry Potter character sketch will be a 
little 
> late.
> 
> I will try to post it late tonight.  Sorry.
> 

*Sniff*
Here I am, sitting in one of the other classrooms in my school, while 
my high school students are asking me if I'm okay because I'm 
laughing out loud at Neil's postings... and now I have to wait!

I cannot wait to get home this afternoon to talk talk talk about 
Harry!

--jenny from ravenclaw who is only 61% obsessed according to the quiz 
but who knows it's much more serious than that***********************




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Apr 16 16:08:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:08:11 -0500
Subject: Ron & School
References: <9bf34o+g6mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADB18EB.3BC263F8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16914

Hi everyone --

Yes .... still pregnant!  It's the never-ending pregnancy ....

Amy Z wrote:

> Catlady Rita wrote:
>
> >Ron, as you pointed out, has an ambition not to be poor any more.
> He's old enough to be working on that ambition.
>
> True.  I just don't share Penny's view that he is not a good student.

Poor maligned, misunderstood me!  I said completely the opposite of the
above.  Just because I don't overall have an enormous amount of sympathy
for Ron doesn't mean I don't see some redeeming qualities.  <g>  Here's
what I said on this issue last week sometime:

> Like others, I would say that I don't think Ron performs all that badly academically.  I have the
> feeling that he & Harry are right about the same level and that while both of them could better if they
> applied themselves more, neither of them are doing all that bad.  I figure they're both above-average
> -- what we Americans might think of as "B" students.  There's no real clear evidence either way, but
> my impression matches up with the Ron supporters on this issue.  :--)
>

What might have confused you is that I did comment this weekend that Ron
never seems to *do* anything actively to advance his ambitions for
financial security & success.  I just perceive that he grumbles about it
alot.  I think he does average to above-average academically without
really trying & without giving any great credence to where good marks
might take him.  That's my chief point: I just don't see that he has any
recognition that "Hey, if I get lots of OWLs and NEWTs, I'll get a
better job and I'll make money & I'll meet my ambitions."  I have the
*perception* (not based on solid canon evidence) that Ron is jealous of
Harry's money because Harry inherited it; that Ron wishes desperately
that he *had* money *without needing to do anything to get it*.  Again,
that's just my perception.  By contrast, I'd wager that Ron believes
that Harry's grades & eventual career won't eventually matter much in
securing his financial future (and in the meantime, Harry has loads more
pocket money than Ron does).

But, no.  I don't believe that Ron is a poor student.  I think he could
be lots better if he applied himself more, but so could Harry.  As you
pointed out, they're 8th grade boys.  They're not doing too bad in that
regard.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 16 16:17:40 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:17:40 -0000
Subject: HP morally questionable?  Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <00c201c0c683$9a881980$0a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9bf5v4+uok9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16915

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
>> "In each of the stories there is some force of evil which 
threatens Harry or his friends, and the force is not defeated until 
Harry breaks some rules or tells some lies.  The consequence of his 
rule-breaking and lying is victory and success; indeed, victory in 
some measure *depends* on his misbehaviour."<<

Harry's rule-breaking and lie-telling is often, in some way, 
punished, and does not always lead to victory. For example, in CoS, 
not only does Harry have to take a detention for his and Ron's car-
stealing escapade, but the Howler makes him feel incredibly guilty. 
Further, after Snape catches Harry with the Maurauder's Map in PoA, 
Professor Lupin (while he does save Harry's skin) also gives him a 
guilt trip and takes away the Map. 

I don't think that Harry's victory *always* depends on misbehavior; 
in GoF, I cannot even recall an instance where Harry was *really* 
misbehaving, except perhaps the egg-incident in the hallway. But even 
that was a little nothing compared to his previous escapades-- 
illicitly mixing a potion in a girl's bathroom, venturing into the 
Forbidden Forest illegaly, sneaking into Hogsmeade. Could you say 
that Harry has 'learned his lesson?' No, I don't think he'll ever 
really stop bending the rules, because some of the rules go against 
his personal judgement. (See Kohlberg's moral ladder discussion at 
end of this post.)

>> "This concept is reinforced by some of the characterizations in 
the books. The authority figures who are easy-going and laissez-
faire, who are happy to overlook Harry's misconduct -- characters 
such as Headmaster Dumbledore -- are likeable, trustworthy, and 
competent.  But those authority figures who insist on obedience to 
the rules and who offer to punish misbehaviour -- characters such as 
Professor Snape -- are portrayed as sinister and meddlesome. ... Out-
smarting and humiliating [characters like Argus Filch and Mrs. 
Norris] is positively a virtue. ... but the moral laws [of a good 
story should] require that a character's actions bring 
consequences."<<
<snip>
>> We don't know what would have happened in SS/PS if Harry had gone 
straight to Dumbledore, told him the whole story, and enlisted his 
help.  In CoS Harry was on his own, because Dumbledore wasn't there 
to consult.  In PoA, Buckbeak and Sirius are rescued with 
Dumbledore's knowledge and with his full cooperation -- in fact he 
practically tells Harry what to do.  And in GoF, I don't recall that 
Harry's success in the tournament or his escape from Voldemort had 
anything to do with his breaking rules or telling lies.<<
<snip>
>> Dumbledore doesn't jump all over Harry for every school-rule 
infraction, true.  But D. appears to represent the spirit of the law 
rather than its letter; he takes into account Harry's motives and he 
also doesn't waste time fussing over trifles.  But he does admonish 
Harry about moral issues; he does warn him about dangerous behaviour; 
and he does even punish him on occasion.  By contrast, Snape and 
Filch are obsessed with rules *as rules* rather than the moral 
principles that they represent.  They are legalists, as it were, who 
look at the outward appearance rather than the heart.  That's how a 
selfish and malicious git like Draco Malfoy can stay in Snape's good 
graces (in appearance, anyway), simply by not allowing himself to be 
caught openly breaking school rules.<<

What the author of this article neglects to include is the fact that 
Harry can get by with the stuff he does because, as Cornelius Fudge
says in PoA, it's "Harry Potter, you know... we've all got a bit of a 
blind spot where he's concerned." And almost everyone *does* have 
that blind spot for him; he's 'the boy who lived' and it is shown in 
how others regard him. It's comparable to how we judge celebrities; 
tell me that OJ Simpson would have gotten off had he not been an 
athlete? Harry *is* a celebrity; some are distasteful of this, and 
others give him leeway because of it.

Dumbledore-- well, Dumbledore encourages, as you say, the moral 
standings of the law. And he's not a big "follower of the rules" 
himself; he's going directly against Fudge in his actions after the 
Tournament. But, it's for the better good. Dumbledore fosters 
deliberation before making such action; he upholds the idea that one 
should make choices that build character and are for the good of 
others as well. Snape and Filch are enforcers of authority and rules; 
they strongly feel for consequences should a person step out-of-line; 
but, this is not necessarily a sense of morality, IMO. Some rules are 
not just or fair(perhaps not in HP canon, but hypothetically), yet 
Snape and Filch, as upholders of the rules, would enforce those 
anyway.

I think this can be explained best using Kohlberg's ladder of moral 
development. (You Psychology buffs will know what I'm talking about. 
Further, I know I'm going to be argued with. I'm only in AP 
Psychology, don't flame me too much! ^-^) IMO, Harry and Dumbledore 
work at the Postconventional level (stage 6, I'd say) of moral 
development, meaning they use conscience and ethical principle to 
make judgements. They use basic guides, generally accepted standards 
of moral conduct, rather than simply the rules, to make their choices 
and decide upon actions. If Harry thinks he's doing something that is 
for the better good of everyone, then he does it regardless of rules 
(SS: he wants to prevent Voldemort from getting the Stone, even 
though this action will put him in danger, and is deliberately 
against the 'rules'. CoS: he goes after Ginny, although he's 
technically not supposed to. Etc. etc.). They follow conscience and 
make decision based upon personal moral standing.

For Snape, Filch, and Hermione, I think they are operating at the 
Conventional level. Snape and Hermione, I think, float between stage 
4 (conventional)and stage 5 (postconventional), while Filch I would 
place in simply stage 4. Anyhoo, at stage 4, actions are met and 
guided by the law: doing your duty, respecting and defering to 
authority, upholding social order and the rules. Snape defintely fits 
here; he's obsessed with authority and maintaining order. Filch fits 
as well, as does Hermione. But Snape and Hermione also show 
characteristics for stage 5 Postconventionalism: they recognize the 
rights of others (Snape returning to Our Side so as to preserve and 
help others, rejecting the rules and order of the DEs so that general 
priciples of society may be maintained), and they see the general 
rules accepted by society as binding but subject to change (Hermione 
and SPEW, she wants to change a view in society, and she decides to 
attempt to go about it). They have high morals in their priniples, 
but they also have the rules which they feel must be enforced and 
obeyed.

OK, that's my little spiel. Go nuts, Psych majors, I know you're just 
itching to get your hands on this, my highly unqualified 
assumptions. :)

Lyda




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Apr 16 16:36:49 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:36:49 -0400
Subject: What were the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students doing all year?
References: <9bf3f9+67e7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003201c0c693$7556f860$673bacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 16916

> I agree with you, Amy - just a one liner from Fred or George that the
> veela-girl from Beauxbatons was proving to be a major distraction
> when they have Herbology with the Ravenclaws & Beauxbatons students,
> or that they were supposed to have DaDA with the Slytherins and
> Durmstrang students, but the Durmstrangers got to be exempt and were
> all working  on a project with Karkaroff - isn't that odd? - would
> have gone a long way.

Maybe I'm deranged, but I assumed that the Beauxbatons students were
continuing to have their lessons in French in that enormous horse-drawn
carriage of Madame Maxime's, and the Durmstrang students were having lessons
in Bulgarian (or Russian, or whatever) on the ship.  It never occurred to me
to think they should be having classes with the Hogwarts students -- I
figured they were sharing meals, free time, and the TWT with the Hogwarts
students (in the interests of fellowship and cooperation) but that was it.

Would there even have been *room* in the Hogwarts classes for the
Beauxbatons and Durmstrang crowd?  Some of the classrooms seem plenty big,
but others (like Trelawney's) not so... and then, it would be quite a burden
to ask the Hogwarts teachers to take on extra students on top of what
already seems to be a pretty full schedule.  Also, Fleur would DEFINITELY
have had something to say about the quality of the education at Hogwarts if
she weren't taking her lessons with her usual teachers -- but as it was, she
just complained about the food and the climate.

I got the impression that Madame Maxime and Karkaroff were both quite proud
of, and committed to, their own ways of teaching.  I can't see them
willingly relinquishing their students to the Hogwarts masters and then
sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 16 16:32:17 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:32:17 -0000
Subject: Defending Snape (was Neville: was re: Authority and rule-breaking)
In-Reply-To: <9bemfc+roet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf6qh+a0vg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16917

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
>>I have a feeling that his demeanour hides a great deal of passion--
and a great deal of hurt somewhere in his past (and not just his DE  
past).  People who have been hurt or disappointed by people tend to  
put up walls so that it won't happen again.<<  

Yes, yes, yes. Hehehe, I don't think that Snape is wrapped up in 
himself, really, either; I think he IS wrapped up in the authority-
figure business, but that is because he has that obsession with rules 
and order. I have a feeling that Severus, while he is no doubt very 
proud of his talents and accomplishments in some aspects, really has 
a low opinion of himself or his actions in other aspects. I think he 
conceals this part of his personality, and keeps the self-disgust and 
self-guilt to himself. Plus he puts up the walls so that he won't be 
hurt again, but also so that *he* won't do anything to really hurt 
others again. I don't mean the saracasm and insult business that he 
has right now; I mean deep hurt that comes from being betrayed by a 
loved one. I have a feeling that he has caused (and been the 
recipient of) this kind of hurt before, and has no desire to go 
through it again.

Lyda




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr 16 16:45:30 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:45:30 -0000
Subject: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9beqrt+muud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf7ja+jgjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16918

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > While reading PoA, I remebered that there were quite a lot of 
> > questions regarding why such and such person was not viewed on 
the 
> > map (why didn't Lupin see the second Harry and Hermione, why 
didn't 
> > Fred and George and then Harry see Peter Pettigrew? etc.). 
> > Well, I had what seemed to me like a brilliant idea, but I 
haven't 
> > checked it against all possible evidence: I think that the map 
only 
> > shows people/creatures that are moving. I thought of that when 
Harry 
> > looked at the map for the first time - it showed Dumbledore 
*pacing* 
> > in his room, Mrs. Norris walking somewhere, etc. 
> > If this is true, then the map didn't show the second Harry and 
> > Hermione because they were sitting under the trees, they weren't 
> > moving about. Also Pettigrew - it's quite reasonble to suppose 
that 
> > all the times the map was used, he wasn't moving (Ron did say all 
he 
> > did was sleep and eat, right?). 
> > 
> >
> 
> One problem with this is that Lupin DID see Pettigrew and Ron being 
> dragged into the tree by Sirius-- Pettigrew was a rat inside Ron's 
> pocket at the time and not moving at all.
> 
I don't know about that.  Scabbers was probably frantically trying to 
escape the whole time.  Which would support that he's visible on the 
map if the map indicates movement.

Also by the logic of Messrs Moony Padfoot, Wormtail and Prongs, if 
it's moving, it could be moving toward them, and catch them making 
mischief. 

> I too have mulled about why he would not see two Harrys, etc. If 
Harry 
> were just witnessing the past with no power to change things (ala 
the 
> pensieve) it would make sense. Maybe the map only shows people who 
> properly belong to THIS time? In which case I see a major 
opportunity 
> for plot twists. I suspect thought that this was an oversight.

Time magic is apparently closely regulated. It's possible the 
Marauder's Map only operates on what's happening at present. And 
Harry and Hermione of the future were technically there, but really 
from the future.  I'm guessing here :) 
> 
> I wonder: Does JKR have ANY idea of some of these things we 
obsessed 
> ones dig up? Sheeeezzz.... 
> 
I bet she does.

Indigo
[who needed a nice brisk conversation to drag her out of the brain-
damaging cuteness of NeoPets] 






From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 16:51:39 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:51:39 -0000
Subject: Neville grandmother
In-Reply-To: <9bf0uc+nlf2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bf7ur+v82j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16919

I've often wished that Grams would show up as a larger character, 
especially since I realized, as I reread PoA this last time, that she 
seems to be a kind of well known witch.  I think that she and/or her 
son and daughter-in-law were part of the "old crowd."  Remember how 
Lupin was able to prompt Neville along regarding his grandmother's 
clothes in which to dress Boggart Snape?  Lupin not only knows that 
Neville lives with Grams -- but he says things like, "And a handbag?" 
to get Nelville to clearly picture his Grams with a big red handbag --
 its as if Lupin knows EXACTLY what Grams wears. I bet Grams can kick 
some serious dark-butt.

Stephanie 



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> This must have been discussed...but I couldn?t find it...I?d like 
the 
> thread to it, if it?s the case, please :)
> 
> What if Nevilles grandmother comes along as the new DADA-teacher? I 
> always pictured her as quite competent...part of a great 
> wizardingfamily, much gratified when her grandson turned out to 
> possess at least a small amount of magical power, which to me 
> indicate that she thinks highly of magic and so might able to 
perform 
> quite a lot herself. She also seems to be "not to be fooled around 
> with" (all the way from her hat (and decoration:)! to her rather 
> severe manners (the little we know of them; at least towards 
Neville) 
> which to me is teacher-material (one sort). She might even be a 
part 
> of the "old crowd" (as Nevilles parents) and thereby possessing a 
lot 
> of DADA-practise. Not to mentione she is female...um *apparently 
> desperatly trying to back up her idea :)*
> 
> I could picture some fun scenes involving Grams and Draco (if they 
> would ever meet) perhaps with an amused Neville as bystander... or 
> something about the look in Snapes face whenever he sets eyes on on 
> her dress/hat.
> 
> /Jennifer




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 17:22:43 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:22:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Neville grandmother
In-Reply-To: <9bf7ur+v82j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416172243.3859.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16920

--- Stephanie Roark Keener <sdrk1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've often wished that Grams would show up as a
> larger character, 
> especially since I realized, as I reread PoA this
> last time, that she 
> seems to be a kind of well known witch.  I think
> that she and/or her 
> son and daughter-in-law were part of the "old
> crowd."  Remember how 
> Lupin was able to prompt Neville along regarding his
> grandmother's 
> clothes in which to dress Boggart Snape?  Lupin not
> only knows that 
> Neville lives with Grams -- but he says things like,
> "And a handbag?" 
> to get Nelville to clearly picture his Grams with a
> big red handbag --
>  its as if Lupin knows EXACTLY what Grams wears. I
> bet Grams can kick 
> some serious dark-butt.

Well, not doubting that Grams is a very cool and
strong witch, I've never thought that Lupin's
prompting indicated that he necessarily knew her at
all.  I thought he was just trying to get Neville to
picture the clothing as completely as he could, and a
grandmother carrying a big handbag is fairly typical.


Andrea

=====
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 12:34:21 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:34:21 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F105Xcn6TbYF7z00006bb7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16921

I meant in Britain.  And two to five in each continent is still a minute 
proportion.  Say there's 30 in the world - there are probably more secondary 
schools than that in one London suburb.  So my point, that the wizarding 
population is tiny, still stands.


>From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 02:37:52 -0700
>
>Hello,
>
> > notice magic.  Also, the wizarding population must be very small -
>probably
> > around 0.1% of the population, if they can get by with only one school.
>
>One school?!  That's only Britain.  Three total in Europe.  No doubt there
>are a few in Americas.  And a few more in Asia.  Sounds like they have some
>sort of school in Africa as well.  In fact, I'd assume that there are
>between two to five in each continent.
>
>little Alex
>

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 18:02:15 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F105Xcn6TbYF7z00006bb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010416180215.57391.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16922

While we're on the issue of government and wizards, why did Karkaroff
face a British tribunal in GoF when he was bargaining for his release
and why was he in a British prison?

Granting that Lord V. had international ambitions, aren't there
Bulgarian tribunals and prisons?

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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 18:09:33 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:09:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville grandmother
References: <20010416172243.3859.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011901c0c6a0$7896f540$9e3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16923

Andrea said, following Stephanie:

<< Well, not doubting that Grams is a very cool and strong witch, I've never
thought that Lupin's prompting indicated that he necessarily knew her at
all.  I thought he was just trying to get Neville to picture the clothing as
completely as he could, and a grandmother carrying a big handbag is fairly
typical.>>

Lupin does, at least, know Neville's parents aren't around, so I wouldn't
surprised if Granny turned out to be a widely known witch.  It seems to be a
small world, the wizarding world, especially when it comes to the
established families.

I think that JKR rarely, if ever, provides character details (or names)
unless she plans to bring those characters in later on in the story.  I
agree with Steve: the fact that we don't know Neville's grandmother's name
is very significant.  Do we know if she is the maternal or paternal
grandmother?  Hmmmm...  The thing I remember about her is that she wears a
hat with a vulture on it.  That's a pretty bold piece of headgear by any
standards (especially if it's not a pointed witch hat, as everyone else
seems to wear) and it sounds like she is dripping with comic potential.

I wonder whether Granny came onto the scene after the attack on the
Longbottoms, or was already the strong matriarch of the family when they
were around?  Certain cultures are very matriarchal and I wouldn't be
surprised if she had been ruling the Longbottom roost for decades.  I'm
suddenly very vague on Longbottom details... perhaps someone can recall more
info...

Neil

________________________________________

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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 18:37:47 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Neville grandmother
In-Reply-To: <011901c0c6a0$7896f540$9e3770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010416183747.66562.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16924

--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> Lupin does, at least, know Neville's parents aren't
> around, so I wouldn't
> surprised if Granny turned out to be a widely known
> witch.  It seems to be a
> small world, the wizarding world, especially when it
> comes to the
> established families.

True, but Dumbledore said something about Neville's
dad being a well-respected Auror and the Longbottoms
being very well-liked.  I don't think it would be
unusual for word of their torture circulating among
the small, close-knit wizarding community, especially
given the number of people who were at Crouch Jr's
trial.  Doesn't necessarily mean that Gran is
well-known on her own.

> the fact that we don't know
> Neville's grandmother's name
> is very significant.  Do we know if she is the
> maternal or paternal
> grandmother? 

Well, we don't know Mr. and Mrs. Granger's names,
despite them being actually present in the story and
introduced to Harry.  We don't know Seamus' mother's
name, IIRC, despite her being introduced at the World
Cup.  Justin Fitch-Fletchly talked about his mother,
and Colin Creevy about his dad, without either of
their names being mentioned.  It's hardly uncommon for
children to only know of someone as "Neville's
grandmother" or "Hermione's parents", so I don't draw
any significance out of us *not* knowing Gran's name.

> Hmmmm...  The thing I remember about
> her is that she wears a
> hat with a vulture on it.  That's a pretty bold
> piece of headgear by any
> standards (especially if it's not a pointed witch
> hat, as everyone else
> seems to wear) and it sounds like she is dripping
> with comic potential.

I definitely agree with that!  I would *love* to meet
Gran at some point.  And speaking of the infamous
hat...I suppose Dumbledore planted that hat with the
vulture on it in the Christmas cracker.  Too much of a
coincidence otherwise. <g>  Was he trying to get Snape
to not take himself so seriously?



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

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From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Mon Apr 16 18:43:01 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:43:01 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
In-Reply-To: <3AD9C4E9.8A062F11@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bfehc+vbhf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16925

Amy Z wrote:
>Demelza wrote:

 >>Well, we agree that that there is no evidence to support 
Hermione's 
 >>assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention he
 >>garner. Therefore, Hermione's assessment was incorrect.

>  Whoa!  That doesn't compute.  I'm trying to follow the logic:
 > (1) There is no evidence to support the assertion that Demelza 
likes cats.
 >(2) Demelza's best friend says Demelza likes cats.
  >(3) Therefore, Demelza's best friend's assessment is incorrect.

>Why wouldn't I take point 2 as evidence that Demelza likes  cats--
unless I was already inclined to mistrust >the friend's perceptions? 
<g>

It's not that I'm 'already inclined to mistrust' Hermione's 
assessment. It's that I've looked for evidence to support the claim 
and found none. Therefore, without supporting data, I question how 
she arrived at that conclusion. "Trust" has nothing to do with 
evidence-based analysis. In fact, once objectivity becomes clouded by 
blind trust then that bias will be reflected in any conclusion, in 
turn putting doubt into that conclusion. I can see how my messages 
might give the impression that I'm anti-Hermione. On the contrary, I 
happen to like Hermione, but I'm not afraid to challenge my thoughts 
about her with questions that might reveal a negative underside.  

>There are lots of assertions in the books that have no particular 
evidence, but that I still believe.  To doubt >Hermione, I would need 
evidence that Ron =isn't= jealous, or evidence that her judgment is 
suspect in >general.  I don't see evidence for either of these things.

Wait a second, you could have no evidence to support that Ron is 
jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners, yet you still won't 
accept that evidence until you have evidence to prove that he _isn't_ 
jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners?? In other words, 
you need to prove that Ron _is not_ jealous in order to believe he is 
not jealous (if I understand correctly what you have written).  That 
may be possible in other systems of logic, however, in Euclidean and 
Aristolean systems of logic, you can't use logic to prove a negative.

 >For my part, Exhibit A supporting the idea that Ron is sometimes 
jealous of Harry is the fact that >Hermione, who knows him better 
than we do, perceives that he is.  I think she is very insightful 
about 
>people in general, and she knows Ron well; if she sees signs of  
jealousy, I reckon they're probably there.

>There is supportive evidence after the fact.  "In tribute to their 
recently repaired friendship, Ron kept the >bitterness in his voice 
to a minimum" (GoF, may be inaccurate quote; it's from memory).  
That  implies >that he has had bitterness in his voice before, even 
though it  was never commented on.

That's from Ch22 GoF. The setting is McGonagal has informed them of 
the YuleBall and that they can bring dates. McGonagall pulls Harry 
aside and tells him that he and his dance partner are expected to 
open the Ball. While in the corridors, Ron asks him if he has anyone 
in mind to ask. 

***
Harry doesn't answer. He knew perfectly well whom he'd like to ask, 
but working up the nerve was somethingelse
Cho was a year older
than 
he was; she was very pretty; she was a very good Quidditch player, 
and she was also very popular.
Ron seemed to know what was going on inside Harry's head.
"Listen, you're not going to have any trouble. You're a champion. 
You've just beaten a Hungarian Horntail. I bet they'll be queuing up 
to go with you."
In tribute to their recently repaired friendship, Ron kept the 
bitterness in his voice to a minimum. Moreover to Harry's amazement 
he turned out to be quite right."
***
Contextually speaking, Ron recognizes Harry's self-doubt at finding a 
date. He compares Harry's situation to the situation of other boys 
(like Ron) who won't have them "queuing up to go" to the ball with 
them. Ron's consolatory statement smacks of self-depreciation. It's 
not hard to understand the "bitterness" in his voice when he just 
intimated that he's a loser. 

>There are also stray comments like Ron enjoying being the center of  
attention for a change when Sirius >"attacks."  "For the first time 
in  his life, people were paying more attention to him than to Harry, 
and 
 >it was clear that Ron was rather enjoying the experience" (PoA 
14).  We know that it is Harry who people >point to in the corridors--
"Next to the tall kid with the red hair" (PS/SS 8), which supports  
Hermione's >sense that when people see Ron and Harry, it's Harry who 
occupies their attention.  And, of course, we >know that he sometimes 
longs to be free of the comparisons and second-best status that come 
with being >6th in a large family.  =These things don't prove Ron is 
jealous,= but they lay the kind of groundwork that >makes me as a 
reader, when I hear from Hermione that he's jealous, say, "Yeah, I 
can  see why he would >be."

Thank you Amy! I've asked time and time again for evidence into 
Hermione's thought process, because I couldn't find it and have 
gotten responses to the effect that since Hermione said it, it has to 
be true. Now that you've pointed these instances out; I can re-
examine Hermione
again.

You are correct. These things do not support that Ron is jealous, 
though they intimate Ron has a jealous streak. But my next question 
would be is, why would Hermione think that because someone isn't 
always  in the limelight, would mean that he is specifically jealous 
of another's celebrity? I'm trying to understand the way Hermione's 
mind works. If these books were the usual "children's lit", I could 
easily accept certain things on face value because the books are 
written with less complexities. As I've written before, there's a 
motive for everything. 

>Did I write all this once already?  Brain cells starting to 
degrade...

>Re: diagnosing Hermione or anyone else:  there's a good reason you 
have to meet several criteria in order >to get any DSM-IV diagnosis:  
we =all= display various behaviors such as overwork, sadness, fear of 
>social situations.  They don't translate automatically into OCD, 
depression, and anxiety disorders, >respectively.  I think we could 
just as easily diagnose Harry as having some kind of mania because 
he's >reckless.  By your criteria, everyone who puts a lot of 
emphasis on academics as their measure of personal >success is 
potentially in danger of OCD.  Okay, but at that point the danger is 
so widespread as to be >meaningless, IMO.  There is a wide range of 
normal behavior.  Nor does being a bit inflexible about >=one= social 
issue equal being "over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible 
about matters of morality, >ethics, or values," especially at the 
developmental stage Hermione is at; there's also a good reason why 
>DSM categories are for adults.  It is normal for an adolescent who 
is just discovering social injustice to >take a stance that according 
to adult standards is extreme.

No, I never wrote that anyone who puts emphasis on  academics is 
potentially in danger of OCD. I wrote that those people with 
obsessive behaviors (ex. studying material over and over even though 
the material is mastered) can potentially be in danger of a mental 
health issue. It was only _after_ I read the DSM-IVR criteria that I 
noticed Hermione shows partial signs of 4 criteria. Take for example 
these concerning of preoccupation with details, rules, lists , 
organization, schedules and excessive devotion to work:

PS/SS Ch 6. On the Hogwarts Express, Hermione tells Harry and 
Ron  "I've learned all our course books by heart, of course, I just 
hope it will be enough." **This begs the question, "enough for what"? 
If it is "enough" for passing the courses, knowing the textbooks "by 
heart", is usually enough to pass, maybe not enough to pass with 
100%, but it is enough to pass. Furthermore, it hints that "learning 
all [the] course books by heart" is a normal thing for Hermione to 
do. Now either this is statement is to be taken as "true" or Hermione 
is exaggerating.
PS/SS Ch 14 "[Hermione] had started drawing up study schedules and 
color coding all her notes. Harry and Ron wouldn't have minded, but 
she kept nagging them to do the same.
"Hermione, the exams are ages away."
"Ten weeks, "Hermione snapped. "That's not ages, that's like a second 
to Nicolas Flamel."
"But we're not six hundred years old," Ron reminded her. "Anyway, 
what are you studying for, you already know it all."
"What am I studying for? Are you crazy? You realize we need to pass 
these exams to get into second year? They're very important, I should 
have started studying a month ago, I don't know what's gotten into 
me
"
**From this passage, we learn that Hermione knows "it all" and by 
Hermione's admission she should have started studying material she 
already knows at least a 3 and a half months (10 weeks + 1 month/4 
weeks) before the exam. For a college entrance exam, for a graduate 
school entrance exam, for a professional licensure exam, that kind of 
preparation is not usual, but these aren't those types of 
examinations .  I might have been a 'lazy' student but I never began 
studying for finals until 3 weeks before them. My roommate used to 
study for them during finals week. To each his own I guess.
PS/SS Ch 14. (the following paragraph describing Easter 
holidays)  "It was hard to relax with Hermione next to you reciting 
the 12 uses of dragon blood or practicing wand movements. Moaning and 
yawning, Harry and Ron spent most of their free time in the library 
with her, trying to get through all their extra work." **
PS/SS Ch 14 "Hermione had now started making study schedules for 
Harry and Ron, too. It was driving them nuts."** I think that's a 
little obsessive to make schedules for people who are driven "nuts" 
by it.
CoS Ch4 Hermione's letter to Ron and Harry.
"'I'm very busy with schoolwork, of course'--How can she be?" said 
Ron in horror. "We're on vacation!" --'and we're going to London next 
Wednesday to buy my new books."
**Ron took the words right out of my mouth.  What can Hermione be 
studying when 1.) school list had just arrived that morning and 2. 
She admits she has to buy the books.
I don't include PoA for study/work due to her class schedule.

You make a good point about adolescent and childhood diagnoses. 
However, most personality disorders/mental disorders are diagnosed 
when a person reaches young adult or adult hood because for some 
reason or the other they can no longer suppress these behaviors and 
these unsuppressed behaviors begin to interfere with normal function. 
However, if the person's past is examined, there is usually evidence 
that these behaviors were indeed present during his childhood and 
adolescence and these behaviors were chalked up to the fact that he 
was 'a kid' or he was 'a teen' and that's how all children or teens 
behave.  Again, Hermione has obsessive traits. We may never know if 
Hermione will be affected adversely by these traits. Though fanfic 
authors might want to explore the possibility. A psychoanalysis of 
Harry would be interesting considering his history, among other 
things, of emotional neglect.

>You fence your views around with lots of "potentials" 
and "possiblys," but you rely on the view that >Hermione is currently 
pathological in order to say that Ron isn't jealous.  I still don't 
see any motive for >her to be lying (yes, she has reasons to be 
ticked at Ron, but why would this make her say he's jealous?  I >just 
don't get it), nor any reason to think that she is way off base.  

No I don't. I've never said that because Hermione has obsessive 
traits, she is also a liar. I stand firm in my beliefs that you have 
to question motive. There's a reason for everything. The only way, I 
see, to be able to understand the characters is to question their 
actions. You're guess is as good as mine why Hermione would tell 
Harry that Ron is jealous. Could she have had the best intentions at 
heart when she told Harry that? Could she have foretold that Harry 
would become angrier and not even want to sort things out with Ron as 
he had the intention to do before Hermione spoke to him? I can't 
answer that answer that. She's known both boys for four years. She 
could probably anticipate how Harry would react considering he's not 
very comfortable with his fame either.  Again, what is the motive? 
Although there's not enough information to definitively answer that 
question, it doesn't mean it should be asked. 

.

Penny wrote: 
> Nope.  Amy Z pointed out the fallacy of your logic.  You've skipped 
some
> steps logic-wise in reaching your conclusion.  Amy also pointed out 
that
> one must assume that Hermione is not to be trusted or have solid
 evidence that Ron *isn't* jealous in order to reach your
conclusion.

As I explained in another message, my system of analysis is 
scientifically based; that is, it is extrapolated from evidence-based 
science, where evidence is necessary to support a theory. If there is 
no supporting evidence, then you cannot consider the hypothesis to be 
true. However once evidence is supplied, then the hypothesis can be 
considered true. It has nothing do with "trusting" a person; however, 
it has everything to do with their methodology used to reach that 
conclusion. Unless I'm not understanding this example properly, what 
you and Amy are saying is if a friend tells you that your next-door 
neighbor is child-molesterer and doesn't show you any evidence 
supporting that claim, you would believe your friend on the basis 
that it was your friend who told you. Well if that so, there's some 
land in Florida you might be interested in
. I've already
addressed 
Euclidean and Aristolian systems of logic and proving a negative.

>  of course, being a huge Hermione fan do agree
> with Amy that Hermione is in general a good judge of people and is 
very
> perceptive.  So, like Amy, if Hermione says Ron is jealous, then I 
tend
> to believe her.  As I've argued before, Harry also believes her.
> 
That's why you lose objectivity in your analysis of Hermione. You 
identify with her and maybe you closely identify with her. There's 
nothing wrong with that, because I'm a reformed Hermione,. myself, 
and I know how easy it is to rationally explain her actions because 
defending her is like defending myself or defending my best friend. 
But I choose not to lose my objectivity, because keeping my 
objectivity is the only way I can see Hermione as J. K. Rowling 
intends her to be portrayed. I wrote earlier that authors 
deliberately choose words, descriptions etc. in order to paint a 
picture of their character. I think that ignoring the author's intent 
results in a less than "accurate" analysis.  Take for example 
Hermione giggling at Ron's arachnophobia. Objectively, Hermione is 
being insensitive. However, if I introduce my bias into the analysis 
of Hermione's behavior I can say "serves Ron right for all the 
comments he's made about her" and I lose light of the fact that 
Hermione can be insensitive and isn't the prefect little angel I want 
her to be. I think it goes to how one wishes to interpret J. K. 
Rowling's writings and how one utilizes the "canon" to analyze her 
work. 

In terms of Hermione's judgement, I believe I've addressed that in a 
prior message. PoA, Hermione doubted that Crookshanks was "after" 
Scabbers contrary to Crookshanks actions and Harry's observation that 
there were plenty of mice in the castle. CoS, Hermione's judgment of 
Gilderoy Lockhart was inaccurate (CoS Ch 6-post -Pixie pandemonium, 
Ch. 10 "brainless git" response and de-boning Harry's arm incident): 
Hermione lets her 'subjectivity' get the better of her. In both 
cases, she is emotionally attached to the subjects and let's that 
emotional attachment cloud her judgment.  Crookshanks _was_ out to 
get Scabbers and Lockhart, well, he wasn't the brave, knowledgeable 
wizard she thought him to be. 

 Again, I pointed out a passage in which Harry specifically 
identifies that assessment as Hermione's. That puts enough doubt to 
prevent me from assuming he completely agreed with her.

>Demelza has in the past discounted evidence that occurs *after* a 
scene in question.

I do think you would agree with me that the books follow a specific 
sequence of events. That is they follow a time continuum. As I 
explained in an earlier message, what is known to the characters at 
any given point in the books is limited to past knowledge and present 
knowledge, similar to reality.  Meaning that a character in Ch 2. 
cannot use something in chapter 22 to formulate an opinion on 
something during the course of chapter 2. To say that Ron is jealous 
of Harry in, for example, Ch 26 and that's what Hermione in Ch 18 
used to determine he was jealous is an ex post facto argument, which 
is generally believed to be illogical.

>  In anticipation of >that argument, I will comment that authors 
don't always map out *everything* in great detail and
> proceed straight through from chapter 1 to chapter 37 without ever
> moving forwards or backwards.  I really don't think JKR has details 
such
> as you suggest mapped out that explicitly.  I think she has an 
outline
> and she knows in general where she's going.  I think she has a good
> handle on each character.  She has alot of extraneous material 
about the
> wizarding world, and she's revealing it bit by bit.  But, she's 
said,
> for example, that there will be loads of details that never make it 
into
> the books because there simply isn't space to cover it.  I don't 
think
> she evaluates each scene and thinks back to herself, "Is this all
> supported by things I've written in previous books or chapters?"  
It's a
> creative, evolving process.  The editing process can also affect
> things.  JKR might well have inserted other clues about Ron's 
jealousy
> that were prior to the scene in question, but they might have been
small
> details that didn't survive the editing process.  She also might not
> have noticed that they *didn't* survive the editing process.
> 

No she might not have a minutely detailed outline. However, as with 
most writers, she is probably cognizant of storyline continuity and 
knows the pitfalls of not maintaining it. And even if she isn't 
particularly cognizant of continuity, her editors should be because 
the lack of continuity interferes with the general plausibility of 
the work.

> Point is: I still believe that Demelza's analysis is entirely too
> scientific to be applied to literature.  I think you're trying to
> interject too much *objectivity* to what is inherently a very
> *subjective* subject, Demelza.  I'd be interested to know if other
> former or current English lit majors agree with me.  I'm a lawyer, 

and
> so I'm familiar with logical analysis.  But, the rigid application 

of
> not only logic but scientific principles to literary analysis .... 

well,
> I don't really see that it applies all that well.  But then, maybe 

it's
> just that I don't agree with the logical conclusions that Demelza 

has
> reached.  I see no reason to doubt Hermione's assessment of Ron's
> jealousy, and I don't require that JKR have provided me with 

specific
> unambiguous examples of it *prior* to the GoF fight scene.  She's 

given
> me enough other groundwork as Amy calls it to make it believable.
> 

I was one of those oddities who double majored in college, receiving 
bachelor degrees in science and liberal arts (art history to be 
exact). Art isn't as "subjective" as popular belief holds. There are 
steps used to 'analyse' a work of art, and one of those steps is 
understanding the social environment during the time the artist 
created the work and understanding the intent of the artist. A 
painter relates his version of the story with his paints; an author 
tells his version of the story with words. 
I look at it as more of a choice of understanding and analyzing a 
character utilizing the intent of the author or analyzing and 
understanding the character by utilizing less of the intent of the 
author and more of your personal bias. Authors have an image of their 
characters. They write about those characters from that perspective. 
In order to appreciate those characters, you have to consider that 
perspective in the analysis (which is why some people to 'get' modern 
art). Authors pick and choose descriptive words and phrases, actions, 
etc. as a way to 'paint their picture' of that character. For 
example, Rowling describes Dean Thomas as a "black boy taller than 
Ron" (US ed of PS/SS Ch 7). A reader might want to picture Dean as a 
short, white boy with blond hair. That's the reader's prerogative; 
but, that isn't _ J. K. Rowling's _ vision of Dean. To use the short, 
blond Dean as the basis for a critical analysis of the physical 
appearances of _ J. K. Rowling's _characters gives a biased analysis 
that would be less than accurate, plausible and convincing.

> > We know from Ron's mirror of Erised experience, that his
> > heart's desire (as of PS/SS) was to be Quidditch Team Captain and 

to
> > be Head Boy---like _Charlie and Bill_. It's not really fair to 
Ron 

for
> >
> > us to interpret his desires to be like his _brothers_, as 

'jealousy of
> >
> > _Harry_"
> 
> Dumbledore didn't interpret Ron's Mirror of Erised desires in that 

way
> and neither did I.  He says, "Your friend Ron, who has always been
> overshadowed by his brothers, sees himself standing alone, the best 

of
> them all" (loose paraphrase probably).  He doesn't want to be 
*like* 

his
> brothers; he wants to be *better than* his brothers.  He wants to be
> Head Boy like Bill AND Quidditch Captain like Charlie.  He doesn't 

want
> to just excel at the same level that they did -- he wants to be
> *everything* and significantly, all alone: the center of attention. 

 Who
> do we know in the books who often is just that: the center of
> attention?  Harry!  I don't fault Ron for being jealous -- he's got 

alot
> to contend with.  He obviously already had some self-esteem problems
> with trying to live up to his brothers before he ever even met 

Harry.
> Having his best friend turn out to be the most famous wizard in the
> world can't help but affect Ron's already fragile ego IMO.
>

It might not have been you, but someone on this list has certainly 
brought up the theory that Ron is jealous of Harry's Quidditch talent 
in addition to other Harry-related "jealousies" and pointed out his 
Mirror desire as evidence. 
 
> > Because I'm not a shipper of any kind, I would have to disagree. I
> > don't think Hermione spends much time with anyone outside of Harry
> > and Ron.
> 
> Shipper or no, you're making a fairly broad assumption there.  It's
> unsupported by evidence.  You've argued that we have no evidence 

that
> Ron feels jealousy about Harry's fame prior to the fight scene.  To 

use
> your same logical analysis, I would want some evidence for your
> assertion that Hermione doesn't spend time with anyone outside of 

Harry
> and Ron.  When she's "off-screen," we can't know where she is or 

what
> she's doing.  Evidence that Harry & Ron observe her studying alone 

on
> various occasions when they are estranged from her in the PoA fight 

is
> not solid evidence that she unequivocally doesn't have any other 

friends
> or other activities to occupy her time.
> 

I think  has posted some evidence to support that. 

> > Likewise, you can't possibly argue that Hermione is truthfully
> > reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We aren't privy to
> > her thought process. In order to objectively determine her 

veracity,
> > you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, especially 

those
> > concerning Ron. In cluding, Hermione's giggling at Ron's 

revelation
> > of arachnophobia. Her insensitivity towards Ron's concerns that 

his
> > pet rat is being targeted by her pet cat. Ron's ability at chess.
> > PS/SS specifically states that Hermione wasn't good at it, nearly 

the
> > same way she wasn't good at Divination.
> 
> Um .... what do Ron's chess-playing skills (and Hermione's lack 

thereof)
> have to do with Hermione's veracity?  Puzzled .... (equally puzzled 

by
> the reference that she isn't good at Divination).  :::shakes head:::
> Sorry but I have *no* idea how either of these facts have any 

bearing on
> whether Hermione is in general a truthful character or a 

pathological
> liar.
> 

Wait a minute! I never intimated that Hermione was a pathological 
liar. Please refrain from 'putting words' into my messages. 
Questioning motive and veracity is not equivalent to saying that she 
is a pathologic liar. My point is Hermione has issues with Ron. 
Hermione likes being good at things. She isn't good at chess, which 
Ron is. She isn't good at Divination. These things influence the make-
up of her character, which in turn, affect her perspective and her 
thought process. All things have to be considered in order to make an 
accurate "profile", ignoring these things gives an incomplete profile 
and an incomplete basis for determing motive and veracity.

> > Furthermore, does Hermione have an 'axe to grind with Ron'? You 

bet
> > she does! Less than a year before, Harry took Ron's side during 

their
> > estrangement. In light of this pattern, she does have a motive.
> 
> A motive to do what?  Like Amy, I don't see that telling Harry that 

Ron
> is jealous of his fame accomplishes anything in particular for
> Hermione.  Unless you're arguing that she *wanted* to be sure Harry
> wouldn't try to make up with Ron, that he would prolong the fight 

they'd
> had.  Even this staunch H/H'er won't buy that.  There's evidence 

that
> she went back & forth between the two of them at least occasionally 

(as
> the R/H'ers have pointed out on numerous occasions).
> 
As I explained earlier. There's a reason for everything. She could 
have been acting with the best of intentions. She could have 
subconsciously wanted to get even with Ron for the estrangement in 
PoA. I don't have an answer, but that shouldn't stop me or anyone 
else from asking the question. I happen to find the sequence of 
events. Harry was determined to sort things out with Ron that 
morning. He meets up with Hermione who has been to breakfast and has 
seen Ron.  She tells him that Ron is jealous of him. Then Harry loses 
his earlier desire to sort things out and becomes even angrier with 
Ron.  You and Amy argue that Hermione is a good judge of character. 
If that's true, then she would have at least anticipated Harry's 
reaction. According to your arguments, Hermione was insightful enough 
to recognize Harry's shock after the Goblet regurgitated his name; 
she's insightful enough to recognize Ron's jealousy of Harry. So all 
of the sudden, she loses her insight when she tells Harry that Ron is 
jealous of him and isn't able to anticipate Harry's reaction?? Using 
the argument for Hermione's good judge of character, her motive 
during the Ron-Harry fight is even more suspect than it was before 
applying that.

> > My point is Hermione's personality isn't all that 'black & white'.
> 
> I don't think her personality is "black & white."  But, I still 

don't
> see why you think she'd lie about Ron being jealous of Harry's fame.
> What exactly would her objective have been?
> 
> > Again, if this excessive devotion to work and productivity 

interferes
> > with her daily functioning, as the diagnostic criteria states, 

then
> > it is will be more definitive. But as I wrote above, you cannot
> > discount the presence of the behavior.
> 
> Actually, yes I do discount the presence of the behavior.  I have 

yet to
> see evidence that her preoccupation with details, rules, 

organization,
> etc. reaches a level that the "major point of the activity is lost."
> She uses study schedules & organization, but the major point of the
> activity is not lost.  It is achieved and with great success.
> Similarly, I don't see evidence that she is devoted to studying to 

the
> exclusion of leisure and friendships.  There was a period in PoA 

when
> she might have thrown herself into studying as an escape (although 

we
> don't know for sure that she didn't have any other friendships or
> leisure activities during this time), but in general, her friendship
> with Ron & Harry comes first.
> 

Let me clarify this because it seems there's a little confusion with 
terminology here. A 'behavior' is simply that; a behavior. For 
example, memorizing all your school books by heart is a behavior. 
Organizing all your notes is a behavior. Doing schoolwork during 
summer vacation, when none has been assigned is a behavior. Singing 
in the shower is a behavior. Once a behavior interferes with day-to-
day functioning, that behavior becomes abnormal. However, even if the 
behavior doesn't interfere with day-to-day functioning, it does not 
mean the behavior does not exist. 


> > Well, if that's the favored argument, then it
> > can be applied to virtually everything written by J. K. Rowling 
in 

the
> >
> > Potter series; that most of it is distorted because it's written 

from
> > Harry's POV. I'm glad I don't write fiction. It must be terribly
> > unsatisfying to learn your reading audience has so little regard 

for
> > the way _you_ have choosen to represent _your_ characters.
> 
> I doubt JKR would take offense that readers bring different
> interpretations to bear on her writing.  That's the point.  That's 

the
> beauty of literary analysis.  I see things that you don't see, and 

the
> converse holds true.  It's *not* scientific.  There is no *single* 

right
> answer at the end of the day.  Harry's POV is a limiting factor ....
> there are things that we can't know because JKR didn't take us 

inside
> the heads of Hermione or Ron or Hagrid.  So, we can speculate.  But,
> there is no objective right answer at the end of the day.  JKR 

wouldn't
> read all of this and award the blue ribbon to any of our debates.
> 


> > First of all, these aren't _my_ definitions.
> 
> I know that, Demelza.  I just didn't phrase it correctly.  I should 

have
> said, Hermione doesn't meet 4 of the 8 diagnostic criteria that you 

set
> out in your message.  She doesn't meet *any* of them IMO.
>

Oh, for a minute there I thought it was a sneaky lawyer trick to 
discredit the criteria of a psychiatric association by implying they 
were of_my_ design. 

> > Again, as I wrote in my prior messages and have repeated here, 

once
> > these
> > criteria are met. That is, once these behaviors interfere with her
> > daily functioning, she will have the 4 or more criteria for OCD 
as 

set
> >
> > by the American Psychiatric Association. Once again, I will 

repeat.
> > That just because she cannot be diagnosed at this time, that does 

not
> > erase the existence of the behaviors nor does it erase any mental
> > health concern for them.
> 
> Except that I disagree that the behaviors are even present.  But,
> whatever.  Sounds like we at least agree that Hermione doesn't have 

OCD
> at this time.
> 
> > A third party might successfully argue I'm as determined to give
> > Hermione a psychiatric diagnosis as you are in denial that she has
> > the potential for one.
> 
> As you yourself have said, we all have the *potential* for one.  I 

just
> don't believe that her behavior meets the diagnostic criteria that 

you
> set out in your earlier message.  I don't agree with you that it's 

just
> a matter of waiting until these behavioral traits manifest 

themselves to
> a degree that they interfere with her "daily functioning."  I don't
> think she arguably has a solid enough foundation for OCD at this 

point.
> Maybe her preoccupation with rules & organization could escalate to 

a
> degree that it interfered with the end objective: achieving high 

marks &
> academic success.  In that case, she would have Behavior #1 on the 

APA
> list.  Maybe she would eventually study to the exclusion of spending
> time with Harry and/or Ron (or anyone else).  If a future books 

says,
> "Hermione was now spending all her time studying.  She refused to 

have
> anything to do with him or Ron.  Harry knew she wasn't spending any 

time
> with the girls in her dormitory because Parvarti confirmed this.  

etc."
> -- then you would have some evidence of Behavior #3.  But, as of 

right
> now, the evidence for Behaviors 1 & 3 is *not* there.  And, SPEW is 

a
> weak link for Behavior #4.  "Rigidity & stubbornness" -- seems like 

you
> need more than just that one trait (which can apply to alot of 

different
> people who do not have OCD) to make a valid argument for OCD.
> 

And these people who do not have OCD, might have traits/behaviors 
that haven't interfered with their daily activities. Maybe they do 
have OCD, but their behavior isn't considered abnormal by themselves 
or the people around them. Again, the behavior has to interfere with 
daily activities of living in order for a diagnosis to be made. 
However, the exclusion of the diagnosis does not mean the behavior 
does not exist.

> > And I might add that this fictitious third party probably won't 

ignore
> > my constant use of the words 'potential', 'possible', 'probably' 

and
> > won't ignore the times I've written that the behaviors must 

interfere
> > with Hermione's activites of daily living(functioning) in order 
to 

be
> > diagnosed with OCD.
> 
> As stated above, my point is that evidence for the underlying 

behaviors
> is not there.  So, it's not just a matter of waiting for these 

behavior
> patterns to escalate to the point that they interfere with daily
> functioning.  The behaviors themselves have yet to manifest 

themselves.
> IMO.
> 

Well, I'm beginning to see this problem . Even if I use evidence-
based analysis and point out examples in the books of obsessive 
behavior, I don't think it will be taken as "evidence" or 
even "possible evidence", because you don't necessarily weigh  
Rowling's intent (the quoted material) in your analysis of the 
characters. 

> > Likewise I don't see Ron self-destructing either. What has 
puzzled 

me
> > from reading the various critiques on Ron is that one set of 

desires
> > is regarded as 'positive' (Hermione's desire for academic
> > achievement) and another set is regarded as 'negative' (Ron's 

desire
> > for financial stability and recognition).
> 
> I don't think the goals themselves are positive versus negative.  I 

just
> put a positive spin on Hermione's methods for reaching her goals.  

She
> wants academic success, and she takes the steps to achieve it.  My
> problem with Ron is not at all that his goals are inherently 

negative.
> I just have the impression that he does little but moan about it.  
I 

do
> see your point & Amy's point that he can't do too much to achieve
> financial success given his age, but maybe it's the "academic 

success is
> the path to other success" mindset that I admittedly have.  I can't 

help
> thinking "Get good grades; ensure your future."  That's just me
> projecting my own bias on him though.  He could be financially
> successful without ever cracking a book & I do know that.  In the 

end,
> it's probably just that I identify with Hermione.  And, I don't 

identify
> at all with Ron.
> 

Lol, I have a graduate degree and I'm working on a  post-graduate 
degrees
.my plumber makes more money and lives in a better house
than 
any of my preceptors do, and I know he didn't get stellar grades in 
high school  nor was he a 'brainiac' because I've known his since 
kindergarden!
I think we have been brain-washed that a good grades automatically 
means success. Sure they may  increase your chances of 'success' 
(another term open to interpretation). But then, I look at Jerry's 
house, cars, his working hours,  etc. knowing that he didn't bust his 
rear-end in school and I can see that good grades thing doesn't 
always apply. (The root of my Fred and George sympathy) 

> I also do think his ambitions & insecurities put him more at risk 

for
> being targeted by the dark side than Hermione's ambitions.  I just 

don't
> see the whole "plant a super-student at Hogwarts to challenge 

Hermione's
> status as star pupil" as an effective means of targeting someone 

close
> to Harry.  Sure, it's possible.  But, Ron's ambitions & 

vulnerabilities
> are, IMHO, more likely to be targeted.
> 

I can see Hermione's ambitions being a risk factor too.  Like I said, 
I'm a recovering Hermione. I'm not nearly as anal-retentive now, as I 
used to be at her age. I was a straight-A student through high 
school, scored 1600 on the SATs, graduated at the top of my class, 
etc. The first time I ever scored a grade less than perfect was the 
first exam in my freshman Chemistry class. I was devastated. By mid-
terms, I was so demoralized that I would've have done almost anything 
to get my 'smarts' back. My roommate's boyfriend's roommate was a 
senior Biochemistry major and I used to have him help me, but it was 
no use. I never once scored above an 89% on any exam or quiz for that 
class the entire semester. I passed the course with an 88%. I 
remember coming home for the Christmas holidays and crying to my 
mother about what a failure I was.  I remember the sinking feeling of 
hopelessness and the feeling that I was worthless. So yes, I can see 
Hermione's ambitions being a risk factor for temptation by the Dark 
Side.

Demelza





From swirlyspike at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 18:49:14 2001
From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:49:14 -0000
Subject: To play Lupin in the movie, I'd cast...
Message-ID: <9bfera+julj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16926

Ewan McGregor, although he is a little young...however he is British, 
and he's really how I imagine Lupin to look. With brown, streaky hair 
of course.




From amy at pressroom.com  Mon Apr 16 19:18:28 2001
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:18:28 -0400
Subject: Harry's childhood/V war/trailer
Message-ID: <200104161518.AA1110835370@pressroom.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16927

Hello! I don't post much but have been on the list since December and still feel like a newbie. I enjoy all the conversation but am only my second readings of the books and don't feel as if I know enough information to post on some topics. I have learned a lot from the list though! I have been thinking about a few things lately though.
 I was thinking of Harry's childhood with the Dursley's. We know how awful he's treated at age 10, 11-living under the stairs, wearing Dudley's hand-me-downs but how was he treated when he was a toddler, 3, 4, 5 years old? Could they have treated him as badly then? It seems like he would be more messed up mentally if the Dursleys treated him awful as a small child. Did he have any toys to play with or did Dudley have all the toys? Maybe it's all just part of the story but I think he wouldn't be as normal as he is if he was treated awful as a small child-if that sentence makes sense!
  We have been talking about the upcoming "war" with Voldemort. Do you really see it as a war? What happened during V's first rise of power? I've thought of V and the DEs as more of a cult like or similar to Hitler, as mentions have been made. Was V a dicatator? I tend to think he wasn't a ruler but wizards were just afraid of his powers. Is there any evidence of all this? I don't think of what will happen in book 5 and beyond as a war but something else but I don't know what!
   I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about people going to the movies and just seeing the HP trailer and leaving. Now, I don't think that's bad if that's what you want to do. They said, though, that people were then asking for their money back saying they changed their mind about seeing the movie. IMO, that's awful. Stay and watch the movie or leave after the trailer but don't ask for your money back. I hope I don't get flamed for this!
   Well, that's my post. Thanks for reading it!

Another Amy,
Amy G.




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 19:19:02 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:19:02 -0000
Subject: To play Lupin in the movie, I'd cast...
In-Reply-To: <9bfera+julj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bfgj6+3f8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16928

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Swirly Head" <swirlyspike at y...> wrote:
> Ewan McGregor, although he is a little young...however he is 
British, and he's really how I imagine Lupin to look. With brown, 
streaky hair of course.

Although I love Ewan I've always seen Liam Neeson as Lupin. He just 
has that quite calm that Lupin exhibits in PoA. Some poeple may say 
he's a bit old but then Lupin is supposed to look old. 

Also I'm guessing that this thread should really be explored over on 
OT-Chatter so I'll leave it at that before I get sent a Howler. 
::smiles at the listmoms:: 


Cheers,
       Kristin




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 15 00:28:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:28:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg - witch, squib, portal guardian, kneazle keeper, none of the above?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F62a1nJI4PE0ts000076c3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16929




meboriqua wrote:

>BTW, Mundungus Fletcher was also mentioned as part of the old crowd.
>I'm very interested to meet the person who tried to get one over on
>the MOM after the World Cup.  I know he was mentioned earlier, but
>can't remember where.  I'll go look!
>
>This is one hell of an old crowd,

Arthur Weasley, on the night of nine raids and the call-out on Moody's 
dustbin alarm:

"old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put a hex on me when I had my back 
turned..."

Perhaps the rest of the old crowd should watch their backs...

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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Apr 16 19:59:11 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:59:11 -0000
Subject: Harry's childhood/V war/trailer
In-Reply-To: <200104161518.AA1110835370@pressroom.com>
Message-ID: <9bfiuf+thjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Gourley" <amy at p...> wrote:
> Hello! I don't post much but have been on the list since December 
and still feel like a newbie. I enjoy all the conversation but am only 
my second readings of the books and don't feel as if I know enough 
information to post on some topics. I have learned a lot from the list 
though! I have been thinking about a few things lately though.

I've been a member since September or October 2000. I read some of the 
messages here and think "wow...I completely missed that!" and I've 
read and re-read these books more than 4 times. lol

>  I was thinking of Harry's childhood with the Dursley's. We know how 
awful he's treated at age 10, 11-living under the stairs, wearing 
Dudley's hand-me-downs but how was he treated when he was a toddler, 
3, 4, 5 years old? Could they have treated him as badly then? It seems 
like he would be more messed up mentally if the Dursleys treated him 
awful as a small child. Did he have any toys to play with or did 
Dudley have all the toys? Maybe it's all just part of the story but I 
think he wouldn't be as normal as he is if he was treated awful as a 
small child-if that sentence makes sense!

This got me thinking. Did the Dursleys adopt Harry or do they maintain 
legal guardianship? I would imagine, at least in the US, that the 
Dursley's were getting visits from social workers, considering how 
Harry was found. Usually, the police would be informed (unless the 
Dursleys decided to keep that quiet) and that starts the ball rolling 
with child social services.

I think the Dursley's gave him just enough care so that the neighbors 
wouldn't gossip. In their neighborhood, at least Mrs. Figg knows 
Harry's relatives are the Dursleys and the school system knows that 
too. Like I said, I don't think the Dursleys wanted gossip about how 
poorly Petunia takes care of her nephew.

>   We have been talking about the upcoming "war" with Voldemort. Do 
you really see it as a war? What happened during V's first rise of 
power? I've thought of V and the DEs as more of a cult like or similar 
to Hitler, as mentions have been made. Was V a dicatator? I tend to 
think he wasn't a ruler but wizards were just afraid of his powers. Is 
there any evidence of all this? I don't think of what will happen in 
book 5 and beyond as a war but something else but I don't know what!
>    I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking 
about people going to the movies and just seeing the HP trailer and 
leaving. Now, I don't think that's bad if that's what you want to do. 
They said, though, that people were then asking for their money back 
saying they changed their mind about seeing the movie. IMO, that's 
awful. Stay and watch the movie or leave after the trailer but don't 
ask for your money back. I hope I don't get flamed for this!
>    Well, that's my post. Thanks for reading it!
> 
I see a conflict evolving. There's three more books left in this 
series. At the end of the last book. Voldemort came back. The next 
book could center around Voldemort building up his following again. 
The sixth book could center around Voldemort taking power. Which will 
leave the seventh and final book to remove Voldemort from power and 
the beginnings to rebuild the world. But the only one who really knows 
is Rowling.

:-)Milz




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 20:03:23 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:03:23 -0000
Subject: Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
In-Reply-To: <20010416180215.57391.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bfj6b+97ad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16931

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda
Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> While we're on the issue of
government and wizards, why did
Karkaroff
> face a British tribunal in GoF when
he was bargaining for his release
> and why was he in a British prison?
> 
> Granting that Lord V. had
international ambitions, aren't there
> Bulgarian tribunals and prisons?
> 
Presumably if Karkaroff is going
round supporting a British dark
wizard, then the MoM in Britain have
the right to 'extradite' him to face
the charges in Britain and then send
him to a British prison?
_____________________________________
_____________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with
Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 20:19:29 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:19:29 -0000
Subject: To play Lupin in the movie, I'd cast...
In-Reply-To: <9bfera+julj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bfk4h+clc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16932

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Swirly
Head" <swirlyspike at y...> wrote:
> Ewan McGregor, although he is a
little young...however he is British,
> and he's really how I imagine Lupin
to look. With brown, streaky hair 
> of course.
I think I'd like to see Egg from This
Life (also starring in Teachers on C4
at th moment) as Lupin - I can't
remember the actor's name though!
He's possibly a bit on the young side
but he has the pale, lightly 'gaunt'
look that I associate with Lupin.
I would also like to suggest the
greatest British actor (IMHO) - and
sexiest to boot - Christopher
Ecclestone, to play Sirius. He is the
only man I can think who would do it
justice.
OK, it's OT but I had to get my 2
knuts in there. Soz.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 14 18:54:39 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:54:39 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How wealthy is Harry Potter?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F105f4yp8ARf3s00006f95@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16933

Neil wrote:


>Rena said:
>
>That's a very good point, Rena, and if he did have a vast fortune, he might
>have considered buying, or been advised to buy, himself a house and get 
>away
>from the Dursleys for good (or perhaps become a permanent tenant  at The
>Leaky Cauldron?).  It wouldn't make sense for someone so independently
>wealthy to be living in a poky bedroom at his Aunt and Uncle's house, would
>it?
>
>I think this ties in with the POV discussion we were having: i.e., to what
>extent does Harry realise the extent of his wealth and to what extent is
>this concept of "a small fortune" a third person perspective?  Is it
>possible that he is more wealthy than he realises?

Absolutely.  I am convinced that Harry is even wealthier than he realizes.  
The heaps of gold in Harry's vault is very much a child's conception of 
wealth.  By the end of GoF, Harry is an entrepreneur, investing in Fred and 
George's joke shop.  Though he doesn't do it for financial profit, I expect 
he'll get a good return!:)  Reasons for thinking he has considerable wealth 
are basically from outside the text.  JKR has stated that James Potter 
inherited enough money not to have to work for a living, and also inherited 
the "rare and valuable" (Ron, paraphrased) invisibility cloak that comes 
down to Harry.  Harry is already learning the price of fame - I think he is 
going to find that he is an important and powerful person in the wizarding 
world, and his wealth will be part of that.

As for why he doesn't buy a house:
1)  We know he is only really safe at the Dursleys, for reasons yet to be 
fully revealed (not to mention the reason that his enviable talents, 
courage, wealth, skill at Quidditch etc are balanced by his unenviable life 
with the Dursleys and his fundamental loneliness, despite his friends).
2) How many 14-year olds, however rich, live independently in their own 
houses?
3)  I think he will find, at some stage, that he already *has* a house, 
complete with house-elves.  The Potters' house in Godric's Hollow was, as we 
know, destroyed.  But they were only hiding out there - presumably they had 
some other residence.  It will be part of his finding the home he's never 
had.

>
>With regard to the school fees, I suppose we can assume they are not
>exorbitant, since the Weasleys have four or five of their children at the
>school at any one time and will have put all seven of them through the
>school by the time Ginny leaves.  I guess we could conclude that the
>Weasleys are so poor *because* they've had to put their children through
>Hogwarts; if not, where on earth do they find the money to do it?  How,
>indeed, do any of the parents of Hogwarts' students find the money, and 
>what
>happens to the children of those who can't afford it?

JKR has said in interview that she has never said there are *any* fees for 
Hogwarts.  The magical community is so small that they cannot afford to deny 
a magical education to any child who can benefit from it, not to mention the 
security angle.  Though Hogwarts is in some ways reminiscent of an English 
public school, it is clearly not a privilege confined to the well-off.  The 
Malfoys (snr and jnr) taunt the Weasleys with not being able to afford new 
books and equipment, but never mention the fees.
>
>When Harry handed over his Triwizard winnings to the twins at the end of
>GoF, he obviously wanted them to have the money and it did seem to be in 
>the
>spirit of generosity, but how much did he realise the value of this 
>gesture?
>Did the money represent, say, a year's schooling to him, or a molehill in
>his mountain of Galleons?
I don't think it was just, or even particularly, in a spirit of generosity.  
I think the money represented a *moral* problem to Harry, considering how he 
came by it.  After all, he said he's throw it down the drain if they 
wouldn't take it.  Giving the money to Fred and George rights the wrong 
Bagman did them, and encourages them in a path of which their mother 
disapproves, so, in a way, represents a criticism of the adult world and 
backs his own generation.  Also, in his own way, he sees it as part of the 
fight against Voldemort, as shown in his comment that they will need all the 
laughs they can get in the future, and therefore a fitting and practical 
memorial to Cedric Diggory.  It is his first real decision that makes a 
difference in the world.

I am fascinated by the political economy of the books, but this is a long 
enough posting already.  I particularly like Ron's reaction to a 50p piece 
"That's money? *Weird!*"  (From memory - what these books need is an *index* 
:) )
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From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 21:00:03 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:00:03 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <3AD9F977.DEBA72E2@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bfmgj+31pl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16934

Amanda said:
"Has no one else thought that the house elf/human relationship might 
be a symbiotic one? Such things are totally natural, occurring all 
over everywhere, where two different species have evolved to operate 
together (clown fish and anemone spring to mind, but there's scads of 
others). The house elves don't exactly run off at the mouth about 
what they get out of it, but that whole "keeping the secrets" thing 
hints that there's lots more to the relationship than we know.

"And even if wizards are exclusively served, and elves are 
exclusively the servers, if this is indeed a symbiotic relationship 
of the sort you see in nature, the elves still would need the 
wizards, as part of the way they exist and survive. Take a poor 
oppressed clown fish away from his anemone, where he's forced to 
stay, and liberate him, and the odds are he'll get munched pretty 
damn fast."

--Sort of like a Patron/Client relationship? Quid pro quo? That makes 
sense, but I don't see it in canon. If it's a symbiotic relationship 
then it's a commensalistic one (at least to our knowledge so far in 
the canon) and that's where the problem arises. The humans are 
benefiting but the HE(')s don't seem to be. Whether they are or not 
we may find out in future books. 

The only evidence that I see that shows HE(')s actually getting 
something from their masters is that they seem to know/keep all of 
the families secrets. (Perhaps HE's automatically have knowledge of 
the dealings of their given family?) 

Then again I might be missing the point. Are you trying to say that 
one can't survive without the other. If so I don't buy it. Humans can 
obviously survive without HE(')s (glances at messy kitchen...on 
second thought...) and Dobby seems no worse for wear at not serving 
the Malfoys.

Lynn wrote:
"I totally agree Scott."

--That's always nice to hear :-)

"I sympathize with Hermione's efforts too and I 
commend J.K.R. for making it an even harder concept to defend by 
making those Hermione sees as oppressed (the house elves), not see or 
agree to it themselves.  It makes Hermione's job a lot tougher, 
trying to convince the "oppressed ones" that they are indeed 
oppressed, and makes it a hard sell to wizards even more so. "

--Which then begs the question that if indeed it is a symbiotic 
relationship, or just the fact that they ARE happy is it not better 
let them continue working. (Since that's what they want!)   The fact 
is we don't really know whether it is elvish nature to serve wizards 
or if its an accquired trait and in fact not at all in their nature. 

I do admire Hermione but her biggest problem was that she never asked 
these important questions before delving into the fight for elvish 
rights. She never said to herself- "Do they want rights?"

"When I first read about S.P.E.W., I related it more to the Muggle 
perceptions on animal rights (my own personal S.P.E.W. type thing) 
than to slavery of humans though, since the human slavery issue would 
involve dissidents and overwhelming hatred of being enslaved from the 
inside to change things effectively.  Since that aspect doesn't seem 
to be the case with house elves (at least to any significant degree 
as yet), I didn't go too far with that analogy in trying to 
understand it."

--Animal rights, eh? So does this mean that SPEW was JKR's way of 
poking fun at PETA? I believe strongly in animal rights ( THAT is 
however better suited for the OT-chatter list). There's one big 
difference though, animals can't talk or tell us how they feel so 
it's up to humans to make that interpretation. The HE's can talk and 
so some would argue don't need Hermione to speak on their behalf.

"Anyway ... since Dumbledore told Madame Pomfrey to fetch Winky and 
take her to Dobbie at the end of GoF, I'm betting he's counting on 
Dobby's influence to change a now disillusioned and perhaps very 
maleable Winky at this point, so as to further persuade other house 
elves to change their way of thinking as well.  If nothing else, 
their way of life may be changed forever if V comes into power so the 
house elves may now be persuaded to use their own special elf powers 
to join with the others Dumbledore is rounding up, even it 
is just to maintain their status quo and not their ultimate 
liberation."

--So you really think HE's will be liberated beings by the end of 
book seven, eh? I don't know, but I do think that their special 
powers will come into play in later books. (Amanda suggested that the 
goblins would be the third party to destroy V, and I think it'll be 
HE's so to each his/her own!)

Just because most people don't agree with Hermione doesn't mean no 
one does. Didn't Arthur Weasley says something like (paraphrase) "I 
agree with you about the treatment of House Elves Hermione, but now's 
not the time to discuss it." Of course he could've just been trying 
to shut her up.

Scott
Who loves sock, but doesn't like cleaning and doesn't think he could 
be a House Elf...





From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Mon Apr 16 21:14:31 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:14:31 -0000
Subject: Prefects  and French translations
In-Reply-To: <9bf34o+g6mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bfnbn+dtp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16935

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> >The largest deviation I've run into so far is when Harry asks Ron 
> what 
> >prefects are and gets a short explanation.
> 
> Ooh, tell us!  You may help clear up one of the Great Abiding 
> Mysteries of HP:
> 
> Why Did Voldemort Try to Kill Baby Harry?
> What Did Snape Do the Night of June 24, 1995?
> and
> What the *&$^# Do Prefects Do, Anyway?

Well I'm not sure what's written clears up any great mysteries, but 
for what it's worth:

...Bill etait prefet en chef et Charlie capitaine de l'equipe de 
quidditch. Maintenant, c'est Percy qui est prefet.
 - Prefet? Qu'est-ce que c'est que ca? demanda Harry.
 - C'est un eleve charge de maintenir la discipline, repondit Ron.  
Une sorte de pion...Tu ne savais pas ca?
 - Je ne suis pas beaucoup sorti de chez moi, confessa Harry.

Which loosly translated by me reads:

"Bill was Head Boy (lit. head prefect) and Charlie was captain of the 
quidditch team. Now Percy is prefect."
"Prefect? What's that?" asked Harry.
"It's a student in charge of maintaining discipline" replied Ron "A 
sort of pawn.. Didn't you know?"
"I don't get out much at home" admitted Harry.

In general, a prefects main job is to make sure other children don't 
run in the corridors, do go outside at break and don't lurk in 
forbidden bits of the school, but the scope probably varies from 
school to school.  Most people only want to be prefects as it looks 
good on a CV, but from what I've heard many people put it on their CVs 
anyway.

Florence (never a prefect!!)  

Sheryll  I seem to have the same French version as Gaynor, the bit you 
quoted is on page 46/47 and is more complete.  It is the Folio junior 
copyright 1998 version.  I'd be interested in your sumarry of 
differences when you've done it please - Thanks







From leahquah at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 21:36:30 2001
From: leahquah at hotmail.com (leahquah at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:36:30 -0000
Subject: Concept of before & after
Message-ID: <9bfoku+sl04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16936

There's something I've noticed about the books; they show you a lot 
of comparison between the younger and older stages of a character. 
Sort of a look-what-happened-to-so-and-so, and it's always different 
from what you might have thought.
Take, for example, Tom Marvelo Riddle. As Dumbledore said, he was the 
handsome, clever, Head Boy. He became the feared Lord Voldemort.
And the group that is sometimes called the Marauders:
Wormtail: blew up a whole street, a Death Eater
James Potter: dead, but his son is a famous wizard and nemesis of 
Voldemort
Sirius Black: an escaped (although innocent) convict, and said 
murderer, on the run
Remus Lupin: a werewolf whose whereabouts we currently don't know.
What kind of reunion would that be?
Take a few other characters. Barty Crouch, senior, was successful and 
on his way to becoming Minister of Magic. By the end of the fourth 
book, he was a bone (which is funny in a way) and all members of his 
family have been as good as destroyed.
And remember how, in the chapter of GoF, the encounter with 
Voldemort, where the DeathEaters come? Voldemort muses over how 
they've changed.

All the befores and afters; is this a hint towards how Harry will 
turn out?




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Mon Apr 16 21:38:46 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:38:46 -0000
Subject: French versions
In-Reply-To: <20010416143605.28499.qmail@web204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bfop6+5lqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16937

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:
 

> Interesting, I have the same edition. Could there be
> more than one version in French? Mine is copyright
> 1998 for the translation. Is yours a more recent
> translation, I wonder? The scenes in question are on
> pages 52 and 53 of my book.

Mine is also copyright 1998. But there is also a note saying Harry 
Potter names etc. are copyright and trademark to Warner Bros. c2000. 
Perhaps mine is a revised edition?

> 
>'Je veux tout le monde 
>
<snip French>
>
>sans pulveriser un extraterrestre sur son ordinateur."
>
> How does this read in your version?
> 


"Je veux que tout le mode pret a partir dans cinq minutes. On s'en 
va. Emportez simplement quelques vetements, et pas de discussion!

Il paraissait tellement menacant, avec sa moustache degarnie, que 
personne n'osa plus faire un geste. Dix minutes plus tard, apres 
avoir arrache les planches qui condamnait la porte, ils monterent 
dans la voiture qui fonca vers l'autoroute. Dudley pleurnichait a 
l'arriere, a cause du coup que son pere lui avait donne sur la tete 
pour les avoir retardes en voulant a tout prix emporter sa 
television, son magnetoscope et son ordinateur dans son sac de sport. 
Ils roulerent, roulerent, roulerent. La tante Petunia elle-meme 
n'osait pas demander a son mari ou il comptait les emmener. De temps 
a autre, l'once Vernon faisait demi-tour et repartait dans la 
direction opposee.

On va les semer, on va les semer, marmonnait-il.

Ils roulerent ainsi toute la journee sans prendre le temps de 
s'arreter pour boire our manger quelque chose. A la tombee du jour, 
Dudley poussa de longs hurlements. Il avait faim, il avait rate cinq 
emissions de television qu'il tenait absolument a voir et il n'avait 
jamais passe autant de tmps sans pulveriser un extraterrestre sur son 
ordinateur." (p46/7)


I've looked up my English version of PS and it's about as close as 
you can get to the original English.

About a year ago, I did hear that the French translations weren't 
very good, so I resisted buying them. When I did buy them, (at least 
PS and PoA), I was surprised to find the translations better than I 
had expected. Perhaps they rushed out a translation of PS in 1998 and 
then revised it in a later edition - the one Florence and I have 
bought.

Have you found many other omissions from the text? I haven't read all 
of PS in French yet, but I've read PoA in its entirity, and apart 
from the odd word, it's close to the original. 

Gaynor






From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 21:42:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:42:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's childhood/V war/trailer
In-Reply-To: <200104161518.AA1110835370@pressroom.com>
Message-ID: <9bfovo+6cmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16938

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Gourley" <amy at p...> wrote:
> Hello! I don't post much but have been on the list since December 
and still feel like a newbie. I enjoy all the conversation but am only 
my second readings of the books and don't feel as if I know enough 
information to post on some topics. I have learned a lot from the list 
though! I have been thinking about a few things lately though.
>  I was thinking of Harry's childhood with the Dursley's. We know how 
awful he's treated at age 10, 11-living under the stairs, wearing 
Dudley's hand-me-downs but how was he treated when he was a toddler, 
3, 4, 5 years old? Could they have treated him as badly then? It seems 
like he would be more messed up mentally if the Dursleys treated him 
awful as a small child. Did he have any toys to play with or did 
Dudley have all the toys?
> 
> Another Amy,
> Amy G.

Hi, Amy G.-

I try to post a lot when I'm not too busy, but I still feel like a 
newbie, especially when I go back to some of the early postings (I 
think I joined in January or February at the latest).

Anyway, I hate to say this, but the Dursleys were pretty disgusting 
from Day 1 with Harry.  In SS there are no photos of Harry, just 
Dudley.  When he is finally allowed to move out of the cupboard, it 
takes just one trip to move his things upstairs, which means there 
were no toys to carry.  In PoA (which I'm re reading now and loving 
more than ever), there is mention of Aunt Marge hitting Harry's legs 
with a stick (I think) because he was beating Dudley in a game - when 
they were only five years old.  

I think JKR set it up nicely so that we are as happy as Harry is when 
he finds out that he can get away from the Dreadful Dursleys.  We love 
to hate them!  The meaner (and dumber) they are, the more we root for 
Harry.  

--jenny from ravenclaw***********************




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 16 21:50:39 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:50:39 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <9bfmgj+31pl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bfpff+jk95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16939


> 
> The only evidence that I see that shows HE(')s actually getting 
> something from their masters is that they seem to know/keep all of 
> the families secrets. (Perhaps HE's automatically have knowledge of 
> the dealings of their given family?) 
> 
> Then again I might be missing the point. Are you trying to say that 
> one can't survive without the other. If so I don't buy it. Humans 
can obviously survive without HE(')s (glances at messy kitchen...on 
> second thought...) and Dobby seems no worse for wear at not serving 
> the Malfoys.
> 
> --Animal rights, eh? So does this mean that SPEW was JKR's way of 
> poking fun at PETA? I believe strongly in animal rights ( THAT is 
> however better suited for the OT-chatter list). There's one big 
> difference though, animals can't talk or tell us how they feel so 
> it's up to humans to make that interpretation. The HE's can talk and 
> so some would argue don't need Hermione to speak on their behalf.
> 
> 
> Just because most people don't agree with Hermione doesn't mean no 
> one does. Didn't Arthur Weasley says something like (paraphrase) "I 
> agree with you about the treatment of House Elves Hermione, but 
now's 
> not the time to discuss it." Of course he could've just been trying 
> to shut her up.
> 
> Scott
> Who loves sock, but doesn't like cleaning and doesn't think he could 
> be a House Elf...

I still agree with you, Scott.  House Elves seem to be quite able to 
take care of themselves - it is the wizard world that makes it 
difficult for them.  Remember Dobby saying how hard it was to get work 
once he had been freed (GoF)?  Also, if it so natural for elves to 
serve wizards, then why is it so hard for elves to leave the wizards 
they serve?  Dobby couldn't even get away on his own - in the end, 
Harry was the one who freed him.  Why cast a spell to keep someone 
bound to you if they want to serve you in the first place?

--jenny from ravenclaw, who is now seriously considering wearing a 
S.P.E.W. pin to work from now on... *********************




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 22:02:37 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:02:37 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves...
Message-ID: <F1434aJ6pkNzPZrIkyP00003b9c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16940

>Lynn wrote:
>--Which then begs the question that if indeed it is a symbiotic
>relationship, or just the fact that they ARE happy is it not better
>let them continue working. (Since that's what they want!)   The fact
>is we don't really know whether it is elvish nature to serve wizards
>or if its an accquired trait and in fact not at all in their nature.

Moses in The Prince of Egypt:  "No nation should be built on the backs of 
slaves."

>I do admire Hermione but her biggest problem was that she never asked
>these important questions before delving into the fight for elvish
>rights. She never said to herself- "Do they want rights?"

Carter G. Woodson (1875-1950), prominent African-American historian:  "When 
you control a man's thinking, you do not have to worry about his actions.  
You do not have to tell him not to stand here or go yonder.  He will find 
his proper place and will stay in it.  You do not need to send him to the 
back door.  He will go without being told.  In fact, if there is no back 
door, he will cut one for his special benefit.  His education makes it 
necessary."

Someone wrote:
>"When I first read about S.P.E.W., I related it more to the Muggle
>perceptions on animal rights (my own personal S.P.E.W. type thing)
>than to slavery of humans though, since the human slavery issue would
>involve dissidents and overwhelming hatred of being enslaved from the
>inside to change things effectively.  Since that aspect doesn't seem
>to be the case with house elves (at least to any significant degree
>as yet), I didn't go too far with that analogy in trying to
>understand it."

Scott:
>--Animal rights, eh? So does this mean that SPEW was JKR's way of
>poking fun at PETA? I believe strongly in animal rights ( THAT is
>however better suited for the OT-chatter list). There's one big
>difference though, animals can't talk or tell us how they feel so
>it's up to humans to make that interpretation. The HE's can talk and
>so some would argue don't need Hermione to speak on their behalf.
>

That's exactly it, Scott.  House-elves are sentient beings.  They are *not* 
listed in FBWTFT.  Although I do recognize that the textbook is not 
exhaustive, I feel that their omission when gnomes are included is telling.

In the case of America, not all slaves *hated* slavery.  In fact, those who 
hated their condition usually didn't survive half as long as those who 
learned to be content with it.  The myth of the docile Mammy and Uncle Tom 
was perpetuated throughout the Old South... any unjust institution requires 
propaganda in order for it to work, you see.

The idea of there being a symbiotic relationship between house-elves and 
their masters bothers me a great deal.  The same rhetoric was used in this 
country less than a generation ago, and extended back throughout our entire 
history as a nation.  ("They like being slaves!  Look, they're happy and 
singing and dancing."  "I treat my slaves well... they're practically 
members of the family.")

I've recommended Card in the past... over the past year, I've read all of 
his sci-fi and fantasy novels.  The discussion of symbiosis is reminding me 
of ethical issues raised the novels after Ender's Game (not the current 
Ender's Shadow spinoff).

There is nothing symbiotic about the relationship between wizards and 
house-elves.  I agree with Amy Z.  From what we've seen in canon, the elves 
get the short end of the stick.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"Those who have ceased to love
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that
Never ask, the minds that never
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 22:05:33 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:05:33 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves...
Message-ID: <F4Np7vXee4fDGCl9Fop00003ca2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16941

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:

>I still agree with you, Scott.  House Elves seem to be quite able to
>take care of themselves - it is the wizard world that makes it
>difficult for them.  Remember Dobby saying how hard it was to get work
>once he had been freed (GoF)?  Also, if it so natural for elves to
>serve wizards, then why is it so hard for elves to leave the wizards
>they serve?  Dobby couldn't even get away on his own - in the end,
>Harry was the one who freed him.  Why cast a spell to keep someone
>bound to you if they want to serve you in the first place?
>


Now I'm wondering how the house-elves became perpetual servants (read:  
slaves) in the first place.  A symbiotic relationship implies that the two 
species evolved together.  Somehow, I doubt this was the case.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"Those who have ceased to love
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that
Never ask, the minds that never
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From leahquah at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 22:08:48 2001
From: leahquah at hotmail.com (leahquah at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:08:48 -0000
Subject: Harry's childhood/V war/trailer
In-Reply-To: <200104161518.AA1110835370@pressroom.com>
Message-ID: <9bfqhg+nhcd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16942

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Gourley" <amy at p...> wrote:

>  I was thinking of Harry's childhood with the Dursley's. We know 
how awful he's treated at age 10, 11-living under the stairs, wearing 
Dudley's hand-me-downs but how was he treated when he was a toddler, 
3, 4, 5 years old? Could they have treated him as badly then? It 
seems like he would be more messed up mentally if the Dursleys 
treated him awful as a small child. Did he have any toys to play with 
or did Dudley have all the toys? Maybe it's all just part of the 
story but I think he wouldn't be as normal as he is if he was treated 
awful as a small child-if that sentence makes sense!

The Dursleys have no qualms about abusing Harry. Book one, the 
Smeltings Stick. Book two, Petunia aims the frying pan at Harry's 
head. Besides, they shut Harry up in his closet/room often.
I think Harry has an instinct for survival, and would be independent 
enough to be able to live well as it is. Even when Dobby got the 
Bludger to break Harry's arm, he continued to fulfill his position as 
the Seeker, and got the Snitch.

>    I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking 
about people going to the movies and just seeing the HP trailer and 
leaving. Now, I don't think that's bad if that's what you want to do. 
They said, though, that people were then asking for their money back 
saying they changed their mind about seeing the movie.

I agree! I heard about how in Malaysia, McDonalds were giving out 
HelloKitty toys with the meals. People would buy the meals, throw 
them out, and just keep the toy. I think that kind of thing is really 
wasteful.




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 22:16:22 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:16:22 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <9beu7p+noso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bfqvm+r0k9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16943

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., clairey at a... wrote:
> > > > > Would everyone like to post their favourite Gof quotes here?
<
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the 
> Yule
> > > Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape is 
> > blasting
> > > rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost points to 
> > students
> > > caught fooling around is pretty good.
> > > 
> >  Yeah, that is good! And poor Harry and Ron are there all alone...
> > 
> > Claire
> 
> LOL, sorry but I think the Ron/Harry slash fans are having a field 
day 
> with this scene!
> 
> --Suzanne

:)




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon Apr 16 22:17:42 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:17:42 -0000
Subject: Quotes
In-Reply-To: <20010416150408.52463.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bfr26+ispl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16944

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >>> It's not really a quote but the scene in the garden during the 
> >>> Yule Ball where Karkaroff is trying to talk to Snape and Snape 
is
> 
> >>> blasting rose bushes apart with his wand and assigning lost 
> >>> points to students caught fooling around is pretty good.
> 
> >>  Yeah, that is good! And poor Harry and Ron are there all
> >>  alone...
>  
> > LOL, sorry but I think the Ron/Harry slash fans are having a field
> > day with this scene!
>  
> 
> Maybe that's why Snape snarls "And what are you two doing?"  What
> answer was he expecting?


LOL!!!!!
claire




From pandora_lily at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 16 22:48:45 2001
From: pandora_lily at yahoo.com (Seattle de Taeloure)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Religion in HP
In-Reply-To: <9bel5o+9fil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010416224845.2091.qmail@web514.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16945


I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
was wondering about Wizard religion.  Aside from the
armor singing "O Come All Ye Faithful" I also wondered
about St. Mungo's Hospital.  There isn't a real St.
Mungo, is there?  I went to Catholic school for seven
years and don't remember that name...though I have
heard of some just as strange.  If it's not a real
saint, then did she pick that name just because a lot
of hospitals are named after saints, or is it in
refrence to something else?

Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
religions?

I don't know...too much thought going into this when I
need to be thinking of school stuff.

Raven

__________________________________________________
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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Mon Apr 16 22:48:23 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:48:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robin Williams movie role
References: <9bes85+710k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c0c6c7$5968b600$8352063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16946

> I agree-- this is now how I imagine Lupin. However, I am given to
> understand that JKRs adamant about her "British actors only" clause. I
> would be very surprised if any Americans got in.

And that, my dear American friends,  is exactly how it should be.  No,
no and thrice no !!! We in the UK have plenty of talented actors who are
more than capable of pulling in the crowds for all four films. I think
that these films will sell themselves regardless of who plays what. I
really don't think that the films will be of interest to adults who have
not read the books and kids aren't normally ( in my experience ) that
bothered by big star names.

In my view the thought of any big American name being involved fills me
with dread and I fully expect JKR to put her foot down as often as is
necessary.

Michelle




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Mon Apr 16 22:52:58 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:52:58 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: To play Lupin in the movie, I'd cast...
References: <9bfk4h+clc9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006401c0c6c7$fbb97200$8352063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 16947


> I think I'd like to see Egg from This
> Life (also starring in Teachers on C4
> at th moment) as Lupin - I can't
> remember the actor's name though!
Andrew Lincoln. Yes, I like that thought. Could play thirties.

Christopher  Ecclestone, to play Sirius. He is the only man I can think
who would do it  justice.

No. Too pretty. But a good actor. See my thoughts on Casting in previous
post.

Michelle




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Mon Apr 16 23:12:23 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:12:23 -0000
Subject: Dursleys
Message-ID: <9bfu8n+cgug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16948

Following up from the recent Dursleys posts - I have been thinking 
about their role in the books. I hope this hasn't been discussed 
before, but I couldn't find it in the search. OK, so we all think 
that they are evil horrible guardians and it's true - they do abuse 
Harry etc. but in light of this behaviour why do they (and 
specifically Uncle Vernon) go to such lengths to keep Harry from 
going to Hogwarts. If they hate him so much then why go on this mad 
rush across half of England? You'd think they would be glad to get 
rid of him (and at some points it seems that they are - when they 
send him letters at Hogwarts asking if he can stay there for 
holidays).

Someone mentioned recently (don't remember which post, sorry!) that 
perhaps the Dursleys are physically unable to leave Harry unless he 
is in Mrs. Figg's care (the zoo incident was the example given.) 
Maybe this is what's causing them to prevent Harry from knowing about 
the letters, but I can't help but think that there may be something 
more to it. JKR has said, I think, that the Dursleys will play an 
important role - but I'm not sure what. Could it be *gasp* that 
they're worried about Harry's safety that there is a little bit of 
family love there? I was thinking about Petunia's speech about Lily 
in the Hut on the Rock: "Oh, she got a letter just like that and 
disappeared off to that - that school - and came home every holiday 
with her pockets full of frogspawn, turning teacups into rats. I was 
the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!...and then, if 
you please, she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with 
you!" (PS)

Their behaviour in this part of the book indicates that maybe the 
Dursleys are worried that Harry too will get himself "blown up" and 
may do horrible things like turning teacups into rats (LOL!) and that 
in general the wizarding world is a dangerous one and that Harry 
should be protected for his own good. I know they are horrible 
guardians to him, but perhaps they feel something for him. And the 
chapters when the Dursleys are trying to keep Harry from reading the 
letters from Hogwarts indicate that Uncle Vernon is the most 
concerned one: "He looked so dangerous with half his moustache 
missing that no one dared argue...Even Aunt Petunia didn't dare ask 
where they were going." Why would Uncle Vernon be more protective 
than Harry's own flesh and blood aunt? There are two times in PS 
where Dudley gets upset that I can remember and both times it's in 
favour of Harry and this is highly out of character since the 
Dursleys usually spoil him rotten and cater to his every whim. The 
first is when Harry has to go to the zoo with them, and they force 
Dudley to accept that and the second time is when they drag Dudley 
with them to the hut on the sea and he gets really miserable and they 
still don't pay his whining any attention.

And then what makes this more confusing is when they send him a note 
asking if he can stay in Hogwarts over the summer (I don't remember 
when this is) but in CoS they also lock Harry up in his room and try 
to make him stay. I think I'm starting to ramble now, but I hope I've 
made my point - I think the Dursleys have a lot of potential, part of 
it may be positive... I don't know - any thoughts?




From katie at vquill.com  Mon Apr 16 23:15:39 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:15:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robin Williams movie role
In-Reply-To: <004d01c0c6c7$5968b600$8352063e@tmeltcds>
References: <9bes85+710k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416161415.00c16bd0@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16950

At 11:48 PM 4/16/01 +0100, you wrote:
> > I agree-- this is now how I imagine Lupin. However, I am given to
> > understand that JKRs adamant about her "British actors only" clause. I
> > would be very surprised if any Americans got in.
>
>In my view the thought of any big American name being involved fills me
>with dread and I fully expect JKR to put her foot down as often as is
>necessary.
>
>Michelle


Absolutely. Any "big name American" ;) star would overshadow the rest of 
the film in a *bad* way.  Why not let a few other actor's share the 
spotlight?  Frankly, I'm tired of seeing the same dozen people in every 
movie. Very tired.

-Katie





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Apr 16 23:31:29 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:31:29 -0000
Subject: Harrys childhood
Message-ID: <9bfvch+d0e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16951

Amy Gourley wrote:

> I was thinking of Harry's childhood with the Dursley's. We know how 
awful he's treated at age 10, 11-living under the stairs, wearing 
> Dudley's hand-me-downs but how was he treated when he was a 
toddler, 3, 4, 5 years old? Could they have treated him as badly 
then? It seems like he would be more messed up mentally if the 
Dursleys treated him awful as a small child. Did he have any toys to 
play with or did Dudley have all the toys?

jenny from ravenclaw wrote:

 I hate to say this, but the Dursleys were pretty disgusting 
> from Day 1 with Harry.  In SS there are no photos of Harry, just 
> Dudley.  When he is finally allowed to move out of the cupboard, it 
> takes just one trip to move his things upstairs, which means there 
> were no toys to carry.  In PoA (which I'm re reading now and loving 
> more than ever), there is mention of Aunt Marge hitting Harry's 
legs with a stick (I think) because he was beating Dudley in a game - 
when they were only five years old.  

Now. The In Defense of the Dursley?s Behavior towards Harry as a 
Small Kid-squad (*only* member=me) kicks in.

There?s little things that they actually did which kind of kept
Harry from going slighlty insane during childhood or later in life 
beacuse of it. 

They seems to be violent peoples (Vernon in particular) but it 
doesn?t seem like they ever hit him badly. Actually I can?t find any
reference to him being hit at all...Petunia does try to mark him with 
a pan in Chamber of Secrets, but fails. Other than that, there are no 
comments about it. And Harrys "mentiones" how he is forced to polish 
the silver and how he never is allowed to watch what he he likes on 
the TV, but he never mentiones being hit. I mean, its even allowed in 
Britain, and still they doesn?t beat him up on regular basis. 

 In HP and the Chamber of Secrets (English Edition), page 55, Harrys 
sais that "the Dursleys haven?t given me pocketmoney for
about six years." So up until the age of six, he Was given money - 
without any highly demanding/forcing reason that I can think of.
 
 the Dursleys let him participate at Dudleys birthday-feast when he 
was 5. If aunt Marge hadn?t whacked him around to prevent him from 
beating Dudley in musical statues...he might (er) have had a good 
time. He wasn?t locked up in his room, told not to make a noice (that 
might have been bad for a 5-years old), which he is as he grows up. 

 Page 92 of HP and the Philosopher?s Stone: "...the Dursleys had 
never exactly starved Harry..." 
Now look at that! They never exactly starved him.

 And they didn?t hand him over to an orphanage (thus maybe 
preventing him from becoming a new Tom Riddle! ;). As aunt Marge 
sais, in HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban, page 23: "It?s damn good
of Vernon and Petunia to keep you. Wouldn?t have done it myself.
You?d have gone straight to an orphanage if you?d been dumped on My 
doorstep."
Of course there could have been some sort of threat in the letter 
from Dumbledore that scared them into keeping Harry (or a plead of 
some sort, but I certainly don?t know what it could be). But would 
that really go along with Dumbledore?s "style"? 

Going through this little list, I can tell its awfully poor. I 
tried... But I guess the Dursleys Were quite nasty to Harry all 
along. But...*no, no buts!* 

 /Jennifer






From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Tue Apr 17 00:12:25 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:12:25 -0000
Subject: Harrys childhood
In-Reply-To: <9bfvch+d0e4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bg1pa+q3uv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16952

> Now. The In Defense of the Dursley?s Behavior towards Harry as a 
> Small Kid-squad (*only* member=me) kicks in.

Count me in - I think the Dursleys are hysterical! Excellent source 
of humour in the books, and I agree with you that while they have 
been horribly mean to Harry and in no way made him feel loved or 
wanted, their presence in his life has produced so many qualities 
that make him loved by his friends. Maybe this wasn't the Dursleys' 
intention, but I don't think they were all that bad. 

>  And they didn?t hand him over to an orphanage (thus maybe 
> preventing him from becoming a new Tom Riddle! ;). As aunt Marge 
> sais, in HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban, page 23: "It?s damn good
> of Vernon and Petunia to keep you. Wouldn?t have done it myself.
> You?d have gone straight to an orphanage if you?d been dumped
on My 
> doorstep."
> Of course there could have been some sort of threat in the letter 
> from Dumbledore that scared them into keeping Harry (or a plead of 
> some sort, but I certainly don?t know what it could be). But
would 
> that really go along with Dumbledore?s "style"? 

I think that considering that we know just how much the Dursleys fear 
wizards and I think it is a very real fear, if unfounded (note 
Petunia's speech about Lily in my prior e-mail) and in later times 
Dudley has been twice attacked by wizards, I think the Dursleys for 
all their 'muggle-ness' are to be admired for taking Harry in. I do 
not deny that he suffered a lot under their hands, and overall I 
think there's a lot about them that should be criticized, poor 
Harry!! Probably never having seen a picture of his parents until 
Hagrid gives him that photo album, it's just awful to deny him his 
roots like they did... but I think they could have done worse, 
considering their very paranoid frame of mind concerning wizards. I 
don't think Dumbledore threatened them - but I guess we'll have to 
wait and see what that particular magic about the Dursleys is in 
later books.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 00:23:31 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:23:31 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Movie & casting - where to post?
Message-ID: <006501c0c6d4$b7451c20$683770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 16953

WHERE TO PUT HP MOVIE/CASTING POSTS

Discussion of the HP movie/cast and related topics is still okay on the main
list, but messages in this category should be prefixed - MOVIE: - as some
people prefer to skip these threads.

If the subject of your post is fantasy casting or comments on the
attributes of a particular actor (such as Robin Williams hairy back),
please post that to OT Chatter.  We havent been very specific about this
before, but that seems the logical place for it.

If you find HP movie news or pictures of actors cast, or who "would be cool
as...", please use the Announcements list and an appropriate link to let
people know about them.

If any MOVIE thread on the main list veers away from Harry Potter, it's time
to move it to OT Chatter.

I imagine we'll have to consider the situation again nearer the release date
of the film when the number of movie-related posts will, no doubt, reach new
heights!!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

Thanks everyone.

Neil
________________________________________

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Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
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Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 00:28:21 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:28:21 -0000
Subject: Gabriel Byrne as Sirius!! (was Robin Williams movie role)
In-Reply-To: <004d01c0c6c7$5968b600$8352063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9bg2n5+fjkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16954

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> > I agree-- this is now how I imagine Lupin. However, I am given to
> > understand that JKRs adamant about her "British actors only" 
clause. I
> > would be very surprised if any Americans got in.
> 
> And that, my dear American friends,  is exactly how it should be.  
No,
> no and thrice no !!! We in the UK have plenty of talented actors who 
are
> more than capable of pulling in the crowds for all four films. I 
think
> that these films will sell themselves regardless of who plays what. 
I
> really don't think that the films will be of interest to adults who 
have
> not read the books and kids aren't normally ( in my experience ) 
that
> bothered by big star names.
> 
> In my view the thought of any big American name being involved fills 
me
> with dread and I fully expect JKR to put her foot down as often as 
is
> necessary.


Yes! I agree! Now.... how about the subject that is really close to my 
heart...

What dost thou think of Mr. Byrne cast as Sirius? He is about 
Rickman's age, so I don't think he is too old...




From ender_w at msn.com  Tue Apr 17 00:42:01 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:42:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursleys
References: <9bfu8n+cgug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c0c6d7$3cc9cba0$93e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 16955


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:12 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dursleys


  Following up from the recent Dursleys posts - I have been thinking 
  about their role in the books. I hope this hasn't been discussed 
  before, but I couldn't find it in the search. OK, so we all think 
  that they are evil horrible guardians and it's true - they do abuse 
  Harry etc. but in light of this behaviour why do they (and 
  specifically Uncle Vernon) go to such lengths to keep Harry from 
  going to Hogwarts. If they hate him so much then why go on this mad 
  rush across half of England? You'd think they would be glad to get 
  rid of him 
  Could it be *gasp* that 
  they're worried about Harry's safety that there is a little bit of 
  family love there? I was thinking about Petunia's speech about Lily 
  in the Hut on the Rock: "Oh, she got a letter just like that and 
  disappeared off to that - that school - and came home every holiday 
  with her pockets full of frogspawn, turning teacups into rats. I was 
  the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak!...and then, if 
  you please, she went and got herself blown up and we got landed with 
  you!" (PS)


  i interpreted this as the Dursleys being terrified of magic and the wizarding world.  
  In SS, chapter 3, p36, Vernon said "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia.  Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that dangerous nonsense?"

  My personal opinion:
  The Dursleys don't like Harry being around.  He's a burden.  But even more, they hate and fear Wizards and they hate the idea of having one in their house.  they don't want to let Harry go to Hogwarts because then he'll be magically trained.  to them Harry is like a gun.  they see him as dangerous, but to send him to wizarding school would be worse because it would be like loading the gun. 
  Why do they hate and fear wizards so much?  Is it pure narrow-mindedness?  Is it pure jealousy on Petunia's part (jealousy of Lilly, the attention she got and her special abilities)?  Is it because they know something about the Voldemort war and fear that danger visiting them?  Or, (and this is a pet theory of mine, kept tightly hidden until now), did Petunia actually love her sister, but feel so bitter and angry at her seemingly senseless and horrible death, that she couldn't contain it and it led her to not only fear anything related to magic, but also to feel bitterness towards her sister and James for "allowing" such a tragedy to happen.
  Crazy, I know.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dasienko at email.com  Tue Apr 17 00:40:43 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:40:43 -0000
Subject: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
In-Reply-To: <9be574+g0eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bg3eb+5lkq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16956

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicki Granger" <junkjunkjunk2000 at h...> 
wrote:
> *delurks*
> 
> Scott Wrote:
> Could Harry be a squib? ... So what would this have to do with the 
> gleam in Dumbledore's eye?
> 
> My Reply: *ignores simultaneous groans*
> 
> Picture this...
> 
> James and Lily Potter, Head Boy and Girl of Hogwarts and extremely 
> powerful duo have a baby. It turns out that the boy is a Squib, or 
> In Harry's fourth year, Harry's blood is used to bring back Vodemort
------------snip--------------
> But in the blood still is Squibness. Voldemort obviously 
> still has powers, but maybe the Squib blood weakens them 
sufficiently 
> so that he isn't as majorly a threat? Maybe with Squib blood he'll 
be 
> defeated more easily or unable to do as much?
> 
> I'm not sure if that totally makes sense... but hey, it's a boring 
> afternoon and I've got time to think through theories like this :)
> 
> ========
> ~*Vicki Granger*~



Actually,It makes perfect Sense. I had the idea that it would be 
something in Harry's blood tha would be V's down fall. It could also 
make sense, since JKR has  said that there will only be 7 HP books. 
and may even be highlighted in the Harry will die theories. 
Maybe Harry will die as a wizard, but live on as a squib.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 00:42:40 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's childhood
In-Reply-To: <9bfucj+kef9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010417004240.2881.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16957


> Of course there could have been some sort of threat in the letter 
> from Dumbledore that scared them into keeping Harry (or a plead of 
> some sort, but I certainly dont know what it could be). But would 
> that really go along with Dumbledores "style"? 
> 

There wouldn't have to be an overt threat for the Dursleys to infer 
one.  They were probably afraid that Dumbledore would somehow know
that Harry was in an orphanage (and he probably would at that) and
turn them all into bats, as Harry says in a later context.

No the Dursleys treated Harry just passably enough to avoid detection
from the Children's Aid Society or whatever it's called in the UK. 
Their major horror was avoiding attention of any kind and physical
abuse would backfire on them.


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From wings909 at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 00:57:26 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:57:26 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gabriel Byrne as Sirius!! (was Robin Williams movie r...
Message-ID: <e4.13ef9a17.280ceef6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16958

I think Gabriel Byrne would make a better Lupin than Sirius, I'm still 
adamant about casting Ralph Fiennes as Sirius.   I'm also going to have to 
add that Jeremy Northam would make an incredible James, God, I love men in 
glasses....

Ok, enough drooling tonight..

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 01:14:51 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:14:51 -0000
Subject: Harrys childhood
In-Reply-To: <9bg1pa+q3uv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bg5eb+gv98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16959

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
> > Now. The In Defense of the Dursley?s Behavior towards Harry as a 
> > Small Kid-squad (*only* member=me) kicks in.
> 
> Count me in - I think the Dursleys are hysterical! Excellent source 
> of humour in the books, and I agree with you that while they have 
> been horribly mean to Harry and in no way made him feel loved or 
> wanted, their presence in his life has produced so many qualities 
> that make him loved by his friends. Maybe this wasn't the Dursleys' 
> intention, but I don't think they were all that bad. 
>
 but I think they could have done worse, 
> considering their very paranoid frame of mind concerning wizards. I 
> don't think Dumbledore threatened them - but I guess we'll have to 
> wait and see what that particular magic about the Dursleys is in 
> later books.

Whoa - would you treat your own children that way?  Or would you 
wanted to have been treated that way if you were a child?

While I also think the Dursleys are funny (especially the colors 
Vernon's face turns when he's angry), I don't think their abuse of 
Harry was laughable at all.  What I liked is that Harry got away - and 
that the Dursleys knew the consequences of abusing him even more could 
be the Muggle world finding out that they are harboring a *gasp* 
wizard.  Not to mention Hagrid coming back, calling Vernon a "great 
prune" again and turning all three of them into pigs.

--jenny from ravenclaw**************************************




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Apr 17 01:15:22 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:15:22 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <F4Np7vXee4fDGCl9Fop00003ca2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bg5fa+1u8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16960

As to what analogy JKR had in mind with the House Elves, I think we are 
all overlooking the obvious...what group in our Muggle world does most 
of the housework? Who doesn't get paid for doing it? And doesn't get 
pensions or paid holidays? And is supposed to consider it all a labor 
of love? And to think this group is largely female. Be ashamed. Be very 
ashamed. ;)

Pippin (a wife for twenty-five years)





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 01:25:11 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:25:11 -0000
Subject: Gabriel Byrne as Sirius!! (was Robin Williams movie r...
In-Reply-To: <e4.13ef9a17.280ceef6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9bg61n+adjd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16961

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> I think Gabriel Byrne would make a better Lupin than Sirius, I'm 
still 
> adamant about casting Ralph Fiennes as Sirius.   I'm also going to 
have to 
> add that Jeremy Northam would make an incredible James, God, I love 
men in 
> glasses....
> 
> Ok, enough drooling tonight..
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor
> 


*moaning helplessly*

Oh the thought alone....




From George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com  Tue Apr 17 01:27:06 2001
From: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com (George Weasley's Girlfriend)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:27:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Percy, the twins, engagement to George and Crookshanks
Message-ID: <386726923.987470826827.JavaMail.root@web597-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 16962

j wrote: <<Remember in CoS when Harry and Ron found Percy
sitting in the back of a store reading some dusty old book about
Prefects Who Gained Power or something like that?  Or that he talked nonstop
about first being a prefect and then Head Boy?>>

[From HPSS:] "Oh, are you a prefect, Percy?" said one of the twins, with an
air of great surprise.  "You should have said something, we had no idea."

"Hang on, I think I remember him saying something about it," said the other
twin.  "Once--"

"Or twice--"

"A minute--"

"All summer--"

Gotta love the twins.

Amy wrote: <<Well, I =thought= we were friends, but here you've graduated
from George_Weasleys_Girlfriend to Mrs. G. Weasley and you didn't even
invite me to the wedding.  ::pout::>>

Ah... my dear Amy, I'm afraid the Mrs. G. Weasley is a bit of preparation on
my part.  It's not official just yet.  We've not yet set a date.  When we
do, I'll let the list know and everyone is invited. :)  Lord knows with all
the other guests, another thousand won't matter.

Haggridd wrote: <<Wouldn't your citations equally support the possibility
that Crookshanks is an unregisterd Animagus, though?>>

While it vaguely has been hinted at, I doubt this.  When Lupin looked at the
map towards the end of PoA and saw that Sirius, Ron and Pettigrew were
entering the tunnel into the Shrieking Shack, he noted nothing as far as any
other people with them.  And, as we know from Pettigrew's revelation, an
Animagus's real name will show up on the Marauder's Map.  But then again,
anything's possible.  I mean... Fred and George (Harry even) missed Peter on
the map where Scabbers should have been.

Jana "El Platano" Tucker
ff.net handle: George Weasley's Girlfriend
AIM screen name: Moo11225


______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Tue Apr 17 01:46:44 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:46:44 -0000
Subject: Harrys childhood
In-Reply-To: <9bg5eb+gv98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bg7a4+7s3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16963

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Whoa - would you treat your own children that way?  Or would you 
> wanted to have been treated that way if you were a child?

These are very redundant questions, in my opinion. Of course I would 
not have wanted to be treated that way as a child. I specifically 
said in my post that I was shocked at much of the Dursleys' 
behaviour, and found it absolutely deplorable. And I do think that 
Harry will carry scars from that childhood with him forever. All I 
was trying to propose was that there is something more to the 
Dursleys than meets the eye, particularly since they were very afraid 
of Harry's background and his 'lot'. And as to the question of 
whether I would treat my own children that way, I have two points to 
make: Harry was not the Dursleys' child, making it doubly harder for 
them to accept him seeing as they were so terrified of him, and two I 
am shocked that you would presume to ask such a question. I only hope 
you didn't mean it literally.




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Tue Apr 17 03:56:07 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:56:07 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Fleur, Female DADA prof., return of Moody?, rumor?
In-Reply-To: <9b9guf+44lv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bgesn+la75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16964

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> How can Mrs. Figg  be a squib if she is also Arabella Figg?  How is 
it possible that a squib would be part of the "old crowd"?.  I don't 
get it.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Can't say, though I suppose magic is not necessatily a prerequisite 
for being part of the 'old crowd'.  And, really, we don't know too 
much about the 'old crowd' at this point, do we?

> Jenny:
> JKR also said on an online chat that there is no such character as 
> Icicle and seemed annoyed at the rumors. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Do you recall any of the specifics about the when and where of this 
chat?  That sort of sounds familiar, but at the same time, I'm 
thinking of some remarks she made (in interviews?  Can anyone help 
jog my memory?) regarding the character of Rita.  IIRC, JKR said Rita 
was always going to be there, but there was a Weasley cousin who was 
going to fulfill the need for getting info outside HW, and for some 
reason this character left a plot hole or something, and JKR just 
ended up increasing the Rita character.  Further, I thought she was 
asked about the Weasley cousin, and replied that she'd rather not say 
any more, as she may still bring that character in...  Can anyone 
confirm any of this?

> Jenny:
> BTW, I still can't imagine Fleur being the DADA professor.  She 
scored quite poorly in the Triwizard Tournament and cheated as much 
as the others, to boot.  That doesn't make me trust her to educate 
our beloved Hogwarts students in DADA.  I do think she and Bill will 
have a thing, though - she sure was checking him out before the third 
task! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm completely with you about why Fleur won't ever be DADA.  And, I 
would love to see that bit about Fleur giving Bill the eye followed 
up!

Kelley




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 17 03:58:48 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:58:48 -0500
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
References: <9bfehc+vbhf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADBBF77.4BCA2CC7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16965

Hello --

Yep (still here!) ....

Demelza wrote:

> >You fence your views around with lots of "potentials"
> and "possiblys," but you rely on the view that >Hermione is currently
> pathological in order to say that Ron isn't jealous.  I still don't
> see any motive for >her to be lying (yes, she has reasons to be
> ticked at Ron, but why would this make her say he's jealous?  I >just
> don't get it), nor any reason to think that she is way off base.
>
> No I don't. I've never said that because Hermione has obsessive
> traits, she is also a liar.

No, you didn't say that *because* Hermione has obsessive traits, she is
also a liar.  But, I think what Amy & I both read was that in your view,
if there is no explicit textual evidence that Ron was undeniably jealous
of Harry's fame & celebrity status *prior to* the GoF fight scene, then
we as readers must assume that Hermione was "incorrect."  If she is
indeed "incorrect," then I interpreted that you would assume she was
being untruthful, deceitful OR "speaking out of turn" (because she was
hasty, conclusory or just ignorant).  Perhaps I've mis-interpreted your
past posts on this topic?  I have seen no textual evidence to assume
that Hermione is in general untruthful, deceitful or prone to making
hasty ill-considered statements.  So, I would need some specific reason
to assume that she has a *motive* to be less than truthful or
deliberately deceitful in this case of telling Harry that Ron is jealous
of Harry's fame.  I don't mind questioning motives at all -- but I fail
to see what motive Hermione would have for telling Harry this.  This
doesn't mean that it isn't possible.  I just can't think of any
plausible motives.

> As I explained in another message, my system of analysis is
> scientifically based; that is, it is extrapolated from evidence-based
> science, where evidence is necessary to support a theory. If there is
> no supporting evidence, then you cannot consider the hypothesis to be
> true. However once evidence is supplied, then the hypothesis can be
> considered true.

Again, it's my opinion that this system of analysis is not necessarily
*always* the best methodology to use in analyzing a work of literature.
Hoping Ebony or someone more knowledgeable about literary theory will
pipe up right about now.  It's been 13+ years since I studied English
lit theory in college.  Perhaps I'm just rusty.  More on this ....

> Unless I'm not understanding this example properly, what
> you and Amy are saying is if a friend tells you that your next-door
> neighbor is child-molesterer and doesn't show you any evidence
> supporting that claim, you would believe your friend on the basis
> that it was your friend who told you.

No, my friend's statement would be *some* evidence that my next-door
neighbor is a child-molestor.  It would not be conclusive evidence.
But, depending on my relationship with my friend and past experience
with his/her judgment & trustworthiness, I might be inclined to assume
he/she was telling the truth until proven otherwise.  In Amy's example,
it was something mundane such as a person's like or dislike of cats.
That might not be important enough to warrant further investigation.
But, whether my next-door neighbor is a child-molestor is probably worth
a second opinion or more solid, factual evidence.  I'd search out
alternate proof.  In the case of the Ron/Harry fight, I think Harry
could have confronted Ron on this issue.  But, it'd be asking alot of
boys that age to talk about touchy-feely stuff like that.

However, the original point was that Amy was taking your logic &
breaking it out step-by-step.  (1) There is no evidence to support
Hermione's assertion that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame; and (2)
Hermione is therefore incorrect.  I agree with Amy: I don't follow that
logic.

> That's why you lose objectivity in your analysis of Hermione. You
> identify with her and maybe you closely identify with her. There's
> nothing wrong with that, because I'm a reformed Hermione,. myself,
> and I know how easy it is to rationally explain her actions because
> defending her is like defending myself or defending my best friend.
> But I choose not to lose my objectivity, because keeping my
> objectivity is the only way I can see Hermione as J. K. Rowling
> intends her to be portrayed.

Again, I object to the use of terms like "objectivity" and "authors'
intent" when talking about a work of literature.  There are definitely
some sentences, paragraphs, sequences or scenes that are
straight-forward in a work of literature, but in my experience, more
often than not, a sentence or scene is subject to a myriad of different
interpretations.  I also believe that one cannot definitively discern
the author's intent from the words on the printed page alone.  If you
want *evidence* of the author's intent in the case of a living author,
you must go directly to the source (the author) and ask him/her a direct
question.  It gets more tricky and considerably less reliable when
you're dealing with a deceased author.  In that case, you must hope that
their intent is easily discernible from drafts, notes, letters and other
similar primary sources.

In the case of Hermione, we would obviously argue different authorial
intent with respect to her portrayal.  You can cloak your arguments in
terms of "objectivity," but you cannot avoid bringing your own
subjective judgment & experiences to the table when you look at
Hermione's character & actions.  IMO.  I don't think it's possible to
divorce yourself from your own biases in the case of interpreting these
characters.  Then again, I don't think Steve's Lexicon site is
completely 100% unbiased either.  <g>

> I think that ignoring the author's intent results in a less than
> "accurate" analysis.  Take for example Hermione giggling at Ron's
> arachnophobia. Objectively, Hermione is being insensitive.

Or, she's a 12 yr old girl with a case of the giggles.  Did JKR intend
that readers would think "case of the giggles" or "insensitive girl"?
We can obviously disagree on this.  There is no one right answer.  We
could ask JKR what *her* intent was, but she might say, "Well, when I
wrote it I was really trying to convey that Hermione was insensitive,
but I now that you mention it, it does rather read as though she's just
a pre-teen girl with the giggles.  I like that better."  My point is
that there is no single, objective rationale or motive or interpretation
to be put on everything that gets included in a work of fiction.

I write non-fiction professionally.  In that case, your style of
analysis does make sense.  But, I disagree that it's appropriate or even
useful to approach fiction with this analysis.

> However, if I introduce my bias into the analysis of Hermione's
> behavior I can say "serves Ron right for all the comments he's made
> about her" and I lose light of the fact that Hermione can be
> insensitive and isn't the prefect little angel I want her to be. I
> think it goes to how one wishes to interpret J. K. Rowling's writings
> and how one utilizes the "canon" to analyze her work.

We all interject our bias into our analysis.  I guess you think that
you're capable of reaching a completely unbiased objective analysis of
the HP books.  Me?  I'm human, and I figure I definitely have bias in my
interpretation of any fictional character or event played out in a
fictional universe.    In my mind, this is similar to the discussion
that Steve & I were having last week.  I still strongly believe that I'm
influenced by the opinions & thoughts of people on this group.  I'm just
as influenced by these discussions as I am by reading fanfiction.  The
overall effect of discussing the books on this group, reading fanfiction
& bringing my own bias and life experiences to the table creates a
fluid, ever-changing grasp of the material under discussion.  If my
views about the HP books were static (and if the books and events
therein were subject to one immutable interpretation by simply
interjecting "objectivity"), then why in the world would we have this
group?  What would be the point?

> I do think you would agree with me that the books follow a specific
> sequence of events. That is they follow a time continuum.

Yes

> As I explained in an earlier message, what is known to the characters
> at
> any given point in the books is limited to past knowledge and present
> knowledge, similar to reality.  Meaning that a character in Ch 2.
> cannot use something in chapter 22 to formulate an opinion on
> something during the course of chapter 2.

True enough; the character cannot do this.  The author can
unintentionally do this though.

> To say that Ron is jealous of Harry in, for example, Ch 26 and that's
> what Hermione in Ch 18 used to determine he was jealous is an ex post
> facto argument, which is generally believed to be illogical.

Except that we are not privy to everything that goes on in the head of
every character.  Just because there is no specific textual evidence
that Ron was jealous of Harry's fame *and* that Hermione knew this, does
not mean that Ron wasn't jealous or that Hermione didn't know this.  We
are not inside the head of either Ron or Hermione.  We are not with them
100% of the time.  Everything will not be spelled out in clear, definite
terms.  Not IMO anyway.

> No she might not have a minutely detailed outline. However, as with
> most writers, she is probably cognizant of storyline continuity and
> knows the pitfalls of not maintaining it. And even if she isn't
> particularly cognizant of continuity, her editors should be because
> the lack of continuity interferes with the general plausibility of
> the work.

Well, we've already established that the editors are clearly asleep at
the wheel (ergo, the Wand Order Error).  <g>  I'm sure JKR is aware of
storyline continuity.  But, I don't think she'd think to herself, "I
don't know if I've made it crystal clear that Ron is specifically
jealous of Harry's fame, and you know what, I'm not sure I've made it
clear that Hermione is aware of this fact, therefore, it isn't plausible
for Hermione to say this to Harry.  I better re-think this scene or
insert something specific into an earlier chapter of GoF."  I think
she'd realize that she'd laid sufficient groundwork for Ron's jealousy
that it wouldn't be jarring (surprising or implausible) to her readers.

> I was one of those oddities who double majored in college, receiving
> bachelor degrees in science and liberal arts (art history to be
> exact). Art isn't as "subjective" as popular belief holds. There are
> steps used to 'analyse' a work of art, and one of those steps is
> understanding the social environment during the time the artist
> created the work and understanding the intent of the artist.

Well, sure -- I agree with that much.  Social context and author intent
are important components of literary analysis.  But, we don't as much
about JKR's intent (especially with respect to specific scenes in GoF)
as we do about the intentions of Dickens or Austen or other authors who
left concrete evidence of their intent with respect to their various
works.  JKR is being purposefully very vague about her intentions in her
public statements.  Discerning her intent in future years will likely a
fun task for scholars .... but it's not something we can engage in very
effectively at the moment.

> Authors pick and choose descriptive words and phrases, actions,
> etc. as a way to 'paint their picture' of that character. For
> example, Rowling describes Dean Thomas as a "black boy taller than
> Ron" (US ed of PS/SS Ch 7). A reader might want to picture Dean as a
> short, white boy with blond hair. That's the reader's prerogative;
> but, that isn't _ J. K. Rowling's _ vision of Dean. To use the short,
> blond Dean as the basis for a critical analysis of the physical
> appearances of _ J. K. Rowling's _characters gives a biased analysis
> that would be less than accurate, plausible and convincing.

That is all true enough.  But, a physical description of a character is
unambiguous; you can clearly discern that JKR intends for us to see Dean
Thomas as a tall black boy with a passion for soccer.  That's not open
to varying interpretations.  The nature of Ron's jealousy is, however,
susceptible to more than one interpretation.

> I think  has posted some evidence to support that.

There's evidence that can be argued that Hermione has no real friends
other than Ron & Harry.  There's other evidence that supports the notion
that Hermione at least has acquaintances (if not reasonably close
friendships) with others.  There is no right ("objective") answer to
this question.  If straight-faced arguments can be arrayed for different
viewpoints, then we aren't dealing with some factual objective piece of
information.  Whether Hermione has other friends is subject to more than
one interpretation.

> You and Amy argue that Hermione is a good judge of character.
> If that's true, then she would have at least anticipated Harry's
> reaction. According to your arguments, Hermione was insightful enough
> to recognize Harry's shock after the Goblet regurgitated his name;
> she's insightful enough to recognize Ron's jealousy of Harry. So all
> of the sudden, she loses her insight when she tells Harry that Ron is
> jealous of him and isn't able to anticipate Harry's reaction?? Using
> the argument for Hermione's good judge of character, her motive
> during the Ron-Harry fight is even more suspect than it was before
> applying that.

That is very interesting!  Of course, in the heat of the conversation
with Harry, she might not have thought through the implications of
blurting out that Ron was jealous of Harry.  She was reacting to Harry's
inability to see Ron's problems.  But, you do have an intriguing point
here ....

> Let me clarify this because it seems there's a little confusion with
> terminology here. A 'behavior' is simply that; a behavior. For
> example, memorizing all your school books by heart is a behavior.
> Organizing all your notes is a behavior. Doing schoolwork during
> summer vacation, when none has been assigned is a behavior. Singing
> in the shower is a behavior. Once a behavior interferes with day-to-
> day functioning, that behavior becomes abnormal. However, even if the
> behavior doesn't interfere with day-to-day functioning, it does not
> mean the behavior does not exist.

I agree.  However, the diagnostic criteria that you set out in your
message specifically says "preoccupation with details, rules, lists,
order, organization, or schedules TO THE EXTENT that the major point of
the activity is lost."  In Hermione's case, she may rely on study
schedules & organization & perhaps unnecessary effort, but all of this
organization & attention to detail does not result in the major point of
the activity being lost.  My point is that her reason for doing all this
is to achieve high marks.  She does achieve high marks.  Her methodology
for getting there may seem excessive to you, but it gets her where she
needs/wants to be.  So, the Behavior #1 (or Diagnostic Criteria #1) is
not met.

> Well, I'm beginning to see this problem . Even if I use evidence-
> based analysis and point out examples in the books of obsessive
> behavior, I don't think it will be taken as "evidence" or
> even "possible evidence", because you don't necessarily weigh
> Rowling's intent (the quoted material) in your analysis of the
> characters.

I don't dispute that Hermione is obsessed with creating study schedules
and engaging in memorization that seems to be unnecessary (although
again, we're not in Hermione's head; we're hearing Harry's POV).  Sure,
she undeniably appears to study way more than is necessary to achieve
her objectives.  But, as far as the Diagnostic Criteria of OCD are
concerned, her obsession with order, schedules and rules does not
interfere with the point of her activity.  We do have a reasonably
objective measure of that: we hear from more than one character that
Hermione achieves high marks.

As for intent, see above.  I don't believe you are capable of discerning
JKR's intent (neither am I).  You're capable of postulating possible
intentions.  But, your opinions may not square with mine or with Amy's.
There's no right answer.  This is not a math problem.  We can speculate
about JKR's intentions with respect to a wide gamut of things in the
books, but all we're doing is speculating.  It's certainly not
scientific.

> I can see Hermione's ambitions being a risk factor too.  Like I said,
> I'm a recovering Hermione. I'm not nearly as anal-retentive now, as I
> used to be at her age. I was a straight-A student through high
> school, scored 1600 on the SATs, graduated at the top of my class,
> etc.

Ah ... so you are bringing some bias into your analysis of Hermione?
Seems so to me.  Much like I dislike the teenage version of me who had
more than a few Ginny-like characteristics.  Consequently, I'm not too
sympathetic to Ginny.  I am unduly harsh in my judgment of her, and I
recognize that.  I was Hermione on the inside and Ginny on the
outside.

> So yes, I can see Hermione's ambitions being a risk factor for
> temptation by the Dark Side.

Oh, sure they are.  It's just my opinion that Ron's are going to be
*easier* for the Dark Side to manipulate.  That's just a subjective
opinion though.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 04:02:01 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:02:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: French versions
In-Reply-To: <9bfop6+5lqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010417040201.72817.qmail@web221.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16966


--- Gaynor Thomas <gaynor at cheerful.com> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend
> <s_ings at y...> wrote:
>  
> 
> > Interesting, I have the same edition. Could there
> be
> > more than one version in French? Mine is copyright
> > 1998 for the translation. Is yours a more recent
> > translation, I wonder? The scenes in question are
> on
> > pages 52 and 53 of my book.
> 
> Mine is also copyright 1998. But there is also a
> note saying Harry 
> Potter names etc. are copyright and trademark to
> Warner Bros. c2000. 
> Perhaps mine is a revised edition?
> 
> > 
> >'Je veux tout le monde 
> >
> <snip French>
> >
> >sans pulveriser un extraterrestre sur son
> ordinateur."
> >
> > How does this read in your version?
> > 
> 
> 
> "Je veux que tout le mode pret a partir dans cinq
> minutes. On s'en 
> va. Emportez simplement quelques vetements, et pas
> de discussion!
> 
> Il paraissait tellement menacant, avec sa moustache
> degarnie, que 
> personne n'osa plus faire un geste. Dix minutes plus
> tard, apres 
> avoir arrache les planches qui condamnait la porte,
> ils monterent 
> dans la voiture qui fonca vers l'autoroute. Dudley
> pleurnichait a 
> l'arriere, a cause du coup que son pere lui avait
> donne sur la tete 
> pour les avoir retardes en voulant a tout prix
> emporter sa 
> television, son magnetoscope et son ordinateur dans
> son sac de sport. 
> Ils roulerent, roulerent, roulerent. La tante
> Petunia elle-meme 
> n'osait pas demander a son mari ou il comptait les
> emmener. De temps 
> a autre, l'once Vernon faisait demi-tour et
> repartait dans la 
> direction opposee.
> 
> On va les semer, on va les semer, marmonnait-il.
> 
> Ils roulerent ainsi toute la journee sans prendre le
> temps de 
> s'arreter pour boire our manger quelque chose. A la
> tombee du jour, 
> Dudley poussa de longs hurlements. Il avait faim, il
> avait rate cinq 
> emissions de television qu'il tenait absolument a
> voir et il n'avait 
> jamais passe autant de tmps sans pulveriser un
> extraterrestre sur son 
> ordinateur." (p46/7)
> 
> 
> I've looked up my English version of PS and it's
> about as close as 
> you can get to the original English.
> 
> About a year ago, I did hear that the French
> translations weren't 
> very good, so I resisted buying them. When I did buy
> them, (at least 
> PS and PoA), I was surprised to find the
> translations better than I 
> had expected. Perhaps they rushed out a translation
> of PS in 1998 and 
> then revised it in a later edition - the one
> Florence and I have 
> bought.
> 
> Have you found many other omissions from the text? I
> haven't read all 
> of PS in French yet, but I've read PoA in its
> entirity, and apart 
> from the odd word, it's close to the original. 
> 
> Gaynor
> 
Your version is obviously closer to the original
English text than mine. If it's a later version, I
wonder why there's no note as to it's being different
from the original translation (that's the library
technician in me, nitpicking the details!). I've run
across a few other parts where they've omitted bits
and pieces. That was just the only one I could think
of without digging up my notes. I'm up to Chapter 6 in
my comparison and have about 10 pages of omissions and
just plain poor translating. I'll send you a copy of
what I find, if you're interested (of course I have to
get my handwritten notes onto the computer first!).

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 17 04:02:54 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (wr7238 at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:02:54 -0000
Subject: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
Message-ID: <9bgf9e+r368@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16967

I have read all four of the American versions with my boys. We are 
now reading the British versions. Right now we are on PS/SS and just 
finished chapter 6. Both boys brought up an interesting fact. Where 
are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why didn't Dumbledore 
send Harry to be with relations on that side? He must have had 
someone to go to on that side of the family. Another point they also 
mentioned was why just the Dursleys, his mom must have had other 
relations to besides her sister. If he had a Godfather, where is his 
Godmother? There was no mention of one. Only his Godfather. Just some 
more to think about Harry's childhood.
Witchwanda or Wanda The Witch




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 04:30:33 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:30:33 -0000
Subject: Beauxbatons and Durmstrang Classes 
In-Reply-To: <003201c0c693$7556f860$673bacce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9bggt9+jrid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16968

If the other schools have any classes with Hogwarts students it would 
be the 7th year classes mostly. Due to the age limit the students 
brought would be 17 or older. I agree that they most likely had most 
[if not all] there classes seperately. 

Bugg 


"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> wrote:
> > I agree with you, Amy - just a one liner from Fred or George that 
the veela-girl from Beauxbatons was proving to be a major distraction 
when they have Herbology with the Ravenclaws & Beauxbatons students, 
> Maybe I'm deranged, but I assumed that the Beauxbatons students 
were continuing to have their lessons in French in that enormous 
horse-drawn carriage of Madame Maxime's, and the Durmstrang students 
were having lessons in Bulgarian (or Russian, or whatever) on the 
ship.  It never occurred to me to think they should be having classes 
with the Hogwarts students -- I figured they were sharing meals, free 
time, and the TWT with the Hogwarts students (in the interests of 
fellowship and cooperation) but that was it.
> 
> Would there even have been *room* in the Hogwarts classes for the 
Beauxbatons and Durmstrang crowd?  Some of the classrooms seem plenty 
big, but others (like Trelawney's) not so... and then, it would be 
quite a burden
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 05:02:52 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:02:52 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9ber0v+ca97@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bgips+dvgc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16969

The Marauder's Map may be showing what is relevant to the area or 
situation. Wormtail new it did not show the inside of Hagrids hut so 
he hid there. It insulted Snape when he tried to activate it. 
Interesting theory about movement, Scabbers [wormtail] was moving 
along with Ron when he was being dragged. 

Bugg -- also from Ravenclaw 


meboriqua at a... wrote:
> This definitely has come up before, and I thought that perhaps the 
map doesn't show every corner in the castle every time one looks at 
it.  I like your theory about what is moving is shown on the map, but 
I also think that the map doesn't always show each and every thing. 
Harry also does not look for every single person, creature or ghost 
when he uses the map!
--jenny from ravenclaw************************************* 

kel4 wrote: 
And on page 193, again of the US edition, it shows Harry standing 
next to the humpbacked witch; he's not moving. It also shows him 
tapping it and saying Dissendium, even though he hasn't done either 
of those things. 

heidit wrote: 
Lupin says on page 347 that he thought the map was "malfunctioning" - 
that may be because he saw 2 harrys and 2 hermiones. Of course, it's 
possible that they were *off map* when they were hiding on the edge 
of the forbidden forrest, as they might have been when Lupin looked 
at the map.   






From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 05:03:29 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:03:29 -0000
Subject: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <9bgf9e+r368@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bgir1+h3i4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16970

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wr7238 at w... wrote:

> Where are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why didn't 
> Dumbledore send Harry to be with relations on that side? He must 
> have had someone to go to on that side of the family. Another point 
> they also mentioned was why just the Dursleys, his mom must have 
> had other relations to besides her sister. If he had a Godfather, 
> where is his Godmother? There was no mention of one. Only his 
> Godfather. Just some more to think about Harry's childhood.
> Witchwanda or Wanda The Witch


I've always had the impression that James Potter didn't have any 
living relatives. However if he did Dumbledore must not have thought 
Harry would be safe with them. After all the DE's are still running 
around and more than likely would have gone after Harry. 

As for his Godparents: we know why Sirius couldn't take Harry but his 
Godmother may have been one of the many witches and wizards that were 
killed by Voldemort. This would be a plausible explanation as to why 
she has never been in the picture so to speak.

As for the Dursleys:  Maybe Petunia was Lily's only living relative 
so Dumbledore had no choice but to leave Harry with her and Vernon. 
Then there is also the barriers that Dumbledore mentioned in GoF. One 
of the barriers probably has to do with the Dursley's. 

Just some of my thoughts on this.

 Cheers,
         Kristin




From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Apr 17 05:38:27 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:38:27 -0700
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bgips+dvgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGELJDHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16971


There may be one very good reason why Peter Pettigrew did not appear on the
Marauder's Map, and I don't remember seeing anyone suggest this possibility:
As one of the manufacturers of the Map, his presence may be magically
excluded from showing.  The Marauders may have included an Invisibility
Charm that prevented James, Sirius, Remus, or Peter from appearing on the
map themselves, just in case it fell into "enemy" hands.

SML




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 05:49:56 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:49:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo was:Religion in HP
References: <20010416224845.2091.qmail@web514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01a401c0c702$3bf13760$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 16972

Hi Raven

This was discussed a bit a few weeks ago -- I don't remember exactly when, but if you really want to sort thru the archives... <g>

St. Mungo is the patron saint of Glasgow (Scotland), also known as St. Kentigern.  He was known as a healer and the cathedral in Glasgow is named for him and holds his remains.  The two stories I remember was of him reviving a bird that had been killed by some of his peers, and of him helping a queen recover her wedding ring after her husband accused her of infidelity.
::tries to remember if there is anything to add...gives up when memory fails::
i think there's a few other tidbits in the old messages...

Abbie, who was very disapointed when, during her two days in Glasgow, she discovered the doors (and yes, i tried all of them) to St. Mungo's were all locked.
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Seattle de Taeloure 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, 16 April, 2001 6:48 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion in HP



  I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
  was wondering about Wizard religion.  Aside from the
  armor singing "O Come All Ye Faithful" I also wondered
  about St. Mungo's Hospital.  There isn't a real St.
  Mungo, is there?  I went to Catholic school for seven
  years and don't remember that name...though I have
  heard of some just as strange.  If it's not a real
  saint, then did she pick that name just because a lot
  of hospitals are named after saints, or is it in
  refrence to something else?

  Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
  has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
  yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
  example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
  witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
  religions?

  I don't know...too much thought going into this when I
  need to be thinking of school stuff.

  Raven

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 17 06:07:12 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:07:12 -0000
Subject: Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
Message-ID: <9bgmig+8ee0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16973

The following is a list of the first line of dialogue uttered by 
various HP characters. Can you identify the speaker, and also give 
the book and chapter? (Note: I am only including what the speaker 
first utters when "on screen"- dialogue attributed to specific 
characters by others   ? such as Sirius' "He's at Hogwarts," is not 
included under this definition)


"Good afternoon," 

"Bad business, Hagrid,"   

"Expelliarmus!"  

"Ahoy there!"

"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
 
"Miss - er -?"  

"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" 
 
"Mom
.geroff," 

"Has anyone seen a toad?" 

"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"

"No thank you Ludo"

"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?" 

"Ah, yes. Harry Potter" 

"Harry Potter!"

"It can't be Harry Potter?" 

"All right, Harry?" 

"Hello, Harry Potter."   
 
"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding." 

"Are you serious, Professor?" 

"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE" 

"What are you looking for, boy?"  

"Use the boy....use the boy.."

"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable, 
I am thinking"

"Absolutely not." 
 
"Thirty-six" 

"What a night,"  

"Can't stay long, mother" 

"Greenhouse three today, chaps!" 

"What?" 

"Nearly," 

"Quiet"  

"Oh!" 

"A small gillywater --"   

"Little tyke"

"What's that you're calling me?"  

"Hi" 
 
"
packed with Muggles, of course
"

Maybe not that small, Ludo"  

"No
..Why?"

"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"

     - CMC














From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 17 06:08:59 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:08:59 -0000
Subject: St. Mungo was:Religion in HP
In-Reply-To: <01a401c0c702$3bf13760$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bgmlr+l9s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16974

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> Hi Raven
> 
> This was discussed a bit a few weeks ago -- I don't remember 
exactly when, but if you really want to sort thru the archives... <g>
> 
> St. Mungo is the patron saint of Glasgow (Scotland), also known as 
St. Kentigern

OTOH, St. Brutus, who lends his name to the Secure Center for 
Incurably Criminal Boys, appears to be completely fictitious.

   - CMC




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 06:32:17 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:32:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGELJDHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <025301c0c708$264696c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16975

How about one more step in this direction?  They only appear to other
"Marauders?"  Hence, Pettigrew, Lupin or Sirius would not appear to Snape,
but if Lupin had the map, he'd instantly know Pettigrew or Sirius were
about!

**************************
* Get ICQ'd!  21282374  *
****************************************************************************
*****************
"Let there be light, for I am tired of the eternal darkness!"- Nicholas
Blair,1970
****************************************************************************
*****************




From: "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com>



>
> There may be one very good reason why Peter Pettigrew did not appear on
the
> Marauder's Map, and I don't remember seeing anyone suggest this
possibility:
> As one of the manufacturers of the Map, his presence may be magically
> excluded from showing.  The Marauders may have included an Invisibility
> Charm that prevented James, Sirius, Remus, or Peter from appearing on the
> map themselves, just in case it fell into "enemy" hands.
>
> SML



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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Apr 17 07:04:13 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:04:13 -0000
Subject: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <9bgf9e+r368@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bgptd+kmb3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16976

I thought about further relatives and I believe there could be more on 
his fathers side, hidden by the fidelius-charm. I know, Dumbledore 
said the Dursley's were the only ones, but he could have meant 
*awailiable*. If James had been their secret-keeper, then nobody could 
contact them, if they didn't wish to.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wr7238 at w... wrote:
 Where 
> are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why didn't Dumbledore 
> send Harry to be with relations on that side? He must have had 
> someone to go to on that side of the family. Another point they also 
> mentioned was why just the Dursleys, his mom must have had other 
> relations to besides her sister. If he had a Godfather, where is his 
> Godmother? There was no mention of one. Only his Godfather. Just 
some 
> more to think about Harry's childhood.
> Witchwanda or Wanda The Witch




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 07:56:31 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:56:31 -0000
Subject: To play Lupin in the movie, I'd cast...
In-Reply-To: <006401c0c6c7$fbb97200$8352063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9bgsvf+4cem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16977

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> 
> > I think I'd like to see Egg from This
> > Life (also starring in Teachers on C4
> > at th moment) as Lupin - I can't
> > remember the actor's name though!
> Andrew Lincoln. Yes, I like that thought. Could play thirties.
> 
> Christopher  Ecclestone, to play Sirius. He is the only man I can 
think
> who would do it  justice.
> 
> No. Too pretty. But a good actor. See my thoughts on Casting in 
previous
> post.
> 
> Michelle

Too pretty! Rubbish! 




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 08:02:55 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:02:55 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGELJDHAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <9bgtbf+78at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16978

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> 
> There may be one very good reason why Peter Pettigrew did not 
appear on the
> Marauder's Map, and I don't remember seeing anyone suggest this 
possibility:
> As one of the manufacturers of the Map, his presence may be 
magically
> excluded from showing.  The Marauders may have included an 
Invisibility
> Charm that prevented James, Sirius, Remus, or Peter from appearing 
on the
> map themselves, just in case it fell into "enemy" hands.
> 
> SML


Good theory - but Lupin spotted Pettigrew on the map and that's how 
he knew that Sirius was innocent... 

However, the idea could still work, maybe if only the other 
3 'Marauders' can see each other on the Map and that's why Gred and 
Forge etc. didn't see Peter-as-Scabbers for all those years...




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 17 09:14:17 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:14:17 -0000
Subject: Snape again (was Ron Sequitors)
In-Reply-To: <3AD6047E.741E6400@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bh1ha+hmfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16979

, Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> Along those lines, I've noticed that a set of words frequently
> associated with Snape is "stepped forward." I've been meaning to go
> through the books and compile how often this particular phrasing is 
used
> for Snape, and in what settings. I think it underlines this 
perception
> of him that I've got, about the just moving on and not wasting time 
with
> recrimination.


I haven?t checked it in the books, but I got the same impression. 
There are many key scenes, mostly towards the end of the books, where 
the main characters will gather and discuss what has happened or what 
is to be done. Not unlike the Agatha Christie novels when everyone is 
in the library in the end and the detective presents his solution to 
the case...

Anyway, Snape is usually there, too, but he usually remains in the 
background until it is time for him to speak or act. And his comments 
or actions are usually quite vital to how the scene or the story will 
go on. "the parting of the ways" in GoF is the most prominent example 
for this. That?s his style. He?s like a shadow to Dumbledore. Not to 
be seen, not to be noticed, but always at hand. Which makes it 
necessary for him to "step forwards" in order to intervene.

But there is another aspect to this "stepping forwards" metaphor. He?s 
not afraid of being singled out, of being noticed, when it becomes 
necessary. Look at the GoF-scene from that point of view. Snape, in 
revealing the Dark Mark, and speaking of his DE past in front of all 
those people, was really an act of stepping out of the line, out of 
the shadows, or, to use another metaphor, of leaning out of the window 
so far that a little push from an unfriendly person would have been 
enough to make him fall.





From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 09:14:46 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:14:46 
Subject: Godparents & religion again Re: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
Message-ID: <LAW2-F111uot0OUIHNk0000a3ba@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16980

Just MHO, but it's my belief a child can have any number (within reason, 
obviously) of godparents, of either sex - i.e. there doesn't have to be a 
godmother for every godfather.  It is not unheard of for a child to have 
four or five godparents.

The fact that Harry has a godfather does rather seem to imply he was 
christened - one of the extremely rare references (if you can call it a 
reference) to religion in the canon.  But of course Sirius is really in good 
old folklore tradition a "fairy-godfather"- Snuffles, why are you growling 
like that?  Down boy!
_________________________________________________________________________
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 00:28:47 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:28:47 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves, namely Winky
Message-ID: <LAW2-F135um03yMJiQT000082df@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16981

claire wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > Yeah, but he sure paid the price didn't he?   Crouch jr tonelessly
>relates:
> > "I killed my father[...]When everyone was gone, I Transfigured my
>father's
> > body.  He became a bone...I buried it[...]"  Whereas I can't help
>seeing
> > Voldemort as a slightly camp figure, with his hackneyed world-
>domination
> > plans (what I gather is referred to as OES, or Evil Overlord
>Syndrome), I
> > found this passage had a bleak, true horror about it.  And Winky's
>grief
> > makes her, as someone (apologies for lack of credit) rightly said,
>the most
> > tragic character in the book.
<snip previous discussion about Winky

>I cried at two parts in Gof, at the end when Harry seems so empty and
>when Crouch jr says "I Transfigured my father's body...". I hated him
>so much for that. I wanted to shout at Mrs crouch and say "What have
>you done? You stupid woman!" (and words that i wouldn't post on this
>list). I just couldn't believe that someone could kill their own
>father so easily.

I so agree.  I think GoF contains some of JKR's best, and worst, writing.  
Worst, because I just didn't buy the whole tournament idea - I know people 
have ingeniously filled in the plot holes - and done it very well, too - but 
JKR should have done that.  Best because of the real depth of the ending - 
she doesn't pull any punches here.  I particularly liked her treatment of 
Amos Diggory - a rather unsympathetic, small-minded character, but she 
doesn't have to spell out what Cedric's death has done to him - we feel it.  
I think the real horror about Crouch's death, for me anyway, and as I think 
you're getting at, was the utter, utter contempt even for his body.  It's 
interesting that Harry was determined to bring Cedric's body back - I think 
there's an interview where JKR refers to this, citing how Achilles(?), in 
the Trojan war, risks everything to bring back the corpse of his friend.  I 
also feel how alone Harry is at the end - he's really gone beyond Ron and 
Hermione, and if he died, though his friends would be sad, no-one would 
grieve for him the way the Diggorys do for their son.  So, some pretty heavy 
stuff along with the fun.  What extraordinary books these are.
_________________________________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 09:40:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:40:27 -0000
Subject: Rulebreaking - D & B students - Money - HEs - Squib Harry
Message-ID: <9bh32b+mhvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16982

I was intrigued by the article Rebecca quoted (the one from Emmaus 
Bible College) and think it makes some good points, though I 
immediately thought of the same thing Lyda wrote:  his success in GoF, 
at least, has little to do with rulebreaking.  In general, I would say 
that JKR affirms the spirit rather than the letter, and =is= quite 
disparaging of those who insist upon the letter of the law; they are 
variously shown to be fools, to interfere with what is really 
important (e.g. Snape delaying Harry's getting to Dumbledore when 
Crouch Sr. is wandering the grounds talking to trees), etc.  And I 
agree that Ron and Harry are often operating at Kohlberg's stage 6, 
but sometimes it's much more self-serving than that; they break rules 
because the rules are in the way of their doing something that they 
just want to do, e.g. the midnight duel in PS/SS, Harry's first stroll 
in the Invisibility Cloak, his going to Hogsmeade in PA.  Also, 
sometimes Harry is pushed to a moral crisis (break the rules in order 
to do what's really important, e.g. his big speech in PS/SS where he 
lays out what you might call the principled rulebreaker's credo:  what 
do points and expulsion matter if Voldemort returns to power?) that 
could have been averted if he would just confide in an adult.  
McGonagall told them to shoo, but if they really insisted on 
explaining all they knew to her ("Hagrid told some stranger how to get 
by Fluffy!") she would have listened.  Then we would have no 
story--but the point is, if JKR wanted to convey that a bit more trust 
in authority was warranted, she could have had McGonagall come visit 
Harry in the hospital wing and say, "you know, if you'd told me what 
was going on, I would have helped."  

The thing is, I disagree with the article author's general stance on 
rules.  I =approve= of the message that abiding by rules is inferior 
to living by the spirit of the law and being guided by conscience.  I 
can't really relate to the view that equates good religious life with 
general obedience to rules.  I have lots of respect for the rule, not 
so much of Law in and of itself, but of the will of the community 
expressed in its laws and rules--that's why I forked over my money to 
the IRS without a complaint yesterday.  (Well, I complained about the 
confusing forms.  But not about the principle of paying taxes!)  But 
I have never been in sync with the strain of American religious 
thought that puts a high emphasis on obedience to the government or 
any other principality or power, or even on obedience to parents (you 
see it a lot in Mormonism and fundamentalism).  A lot of my spiritual 
heroes are principled rulebreakers:  Jesus, Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin 
Luther King, Dorothy Day, the Berrigans--conscientious practitioners 
of civil disobedience, every one.  I'm not saying Harry has a 
well-thought-out philosophy of civil disobedience, but his actions 
illustrate its principles.

Rebecca wrote:

>I assumed that the Beauxbatons students were continuing to have their 
lessons in French in that enormous horse-drawn
>carriage of Madame Maxime's, and the Durmstrang students were having 
lessons
>in Bulgarian (or Russian, or whatever) on the ship

Oh, me too.  I was just saying that one explanation of why the TWT 
lasts an entire school year =could= be that it's not just a tournament 
for three (four) champions; it's an exchange year for two dozen 
students; but we don't really see the students taking advantage of a 
year at a different school.

Heidi wrote:

>they were supposed to have DaDA with the Slytherins and 
>Durmstrang students, but the Durmstrangers got to be exempt and were 
>all working  on a project with Karkaroff - isn't that odd?

LOL!

Penny wrote:

>I have the *perception* (not based on solid canon evidence) that Ron 
is jealous of
>Harry's money because Harry inherited it; that Ron wishes desperately
>that he *had* money *without needing to do anything to get it*. 

I can see that.  It just isn't my perception.  I don't see Ron's 
jealousy as being at all that developed, or his thoughts about Harry's 
money being that detailed--he just hates being poor:  the humiliation 
of secondhand stuff (sharpened by his archenemy's being rich and 
rubbing his face in it), the contant money worries in his family.

I really related to JKR when she said in some interview that the 
wonderful thing about her financial success is the absence of worry.  
This is the kind of insight that goes into Ron's "must be nice, being 
able to lose a pocketful of gold and not notice" bit--it's not that he 
spends his time meditating gloomily on how much money Harry has, but 
that when this kind of thing happens he realizes the gulf between his 
experience and that of someone who doesn't have to count every Sickle. 
 It could come up a lot if Harry were the type to buy a lot of 
expensive things or be thoughtless about spending money ("Harry, I'm 
so sorry--I smashed your vial of unicorn horn!"  "Ah, don't worry, 
plenty more where that came from").

Morag wrote:

>I particularly like Ron's reaction to a 50p piece "That's money? 
*Weird!*" 

I would probably respond the same way!

I once went to Canada with a friend who repeatedly and loudly referred 
to their paper money as "purple chickens" (FYI, Canadian bills are a 
variety of colors, unlike the US's rather boring 
green-for-every-denomination, and yes, there was a robin on the, IIRC, 
$2 bill).  It was embarrassing at the time, touring Ottawa with the 
Ugly American, but my husband and I still privately refer to Canadian 
money as purple chickens.

Ebony wrote:

>The idea of there being a symbiotic relationship between house-elves 
and 
>their masters bothers me a great deal.  The same rhetoric was used in 
this 
>country less than a generation ago, and extended back throughout our 
entire 
>history as a nation.  ("They like being slaves!  Look, they're happy 
and 
>singing and dancing."  "I treat my slaves well... they're practically 
>members of the family.")

A big amen to this and the entire post, but I had to snip it to be a 
good list citizen.

I just reread the beginning of CoS today.  I recommend the chapter 
"Dobby's Warning" to anyone who is thinking house-elves don't have it 
so bad or that they want things to stay the way they are.

dasienko wrote:

>Maybe Harry will die as a wizard, but live on as a squib.

Oh, that would be so sad.  Never to play Quidditch again . . . ?!  A 
fate worse than death!

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch."
              --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," Rave

 www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315
--------------------------------------------------------------




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 17 10:02:36 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:02:36 -0000
Subject: Snape's teaching style
In-Reply-To: <9b7ccb+fbsc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bh4bt+3t45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16983

 "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
(Some excellent thoughts, but I will confine this reply to the actual 
question of Snape?s teaching methods)

> >> But we all learned with amazing efficacy. Being a "mean" teacher 
> doesn't necessarily equate to being a "bad" teacher.<<
> >>I think this is so true of Snape--admittedly, it's not the right 
> approach for Neville. We teach the way we learn. When I turn 
> around to teach someone that same process, I'm going to start by 
> teaching it using the preferred style I used to learn it. Assuming 
> Snape was an above average student, one who cottoned on pretty 
> quickly and didn't need a lot of minute direction, he's going to 
> teach that way, and assume that anyone who can't do it like that is 
> a "dunderhead." 

We teach the way we learn. Yes, that?s excellently put. But don?t 
limit this statement to the intellectual aspect of teaching. It also 
goes (maybe even more so) for the emotional/psychological side of it. 
Either Snape was a very clever student who never had problems at 
school and got all the intellectual recognition he deserved - then, no 
wonder he bullies Neville, not being able to understand him, and no 
wonder he bullies Hermione, probably she reminds him of himself.
Or Snape was a bit of a dunderhead  himself and would have needed a 
lot of help and special tutoring himself but didn?t get it, so he 
thinks if he had a hard time at school, why should the others have an 
easier time?

I?m not defending his behaviour, it?s just the way people?s minds 
usually work.
-------

Lyda continues:

Snape also has the kind of impatient personality 
that > doesn't suffer fools well.
However, should Snape be expected to tailor his 
> teaching style to every student? That's a tough ethical question. 
> Does he have the right to insult and bully them? No, but there's a 
> thin line between bullying and challenging. I get the sense that 
> Snape has one foot to either side of it.<<

Right. Let?s face it: this guy is a pedagogical nightmare. The 
question is not whether he is a good or a bad teacher, he is *no 
teacher* at all, it?s as simple as that. I?ve never known or read 
about a person less qualified (in character and personal enthusiasm) 
to be a teacher than him. 

And he knows. He hates his job. And he doesn?t mind other people 
knowing. The "dunderhead" speach makes it clear enough. 

Catherine wrote:
>Snape's meanness serves absolutely no purpose at all, except to 
intimidate the  students he dislikes and I think that his overall 
teaching method is  potentially destructive.<

Yes, I agree totally. I think "challenging his students" is a highly 
euphemistic synonym for making them feel again and again he hates 
teaching.

Remember in PoA, in the Shrieking shack scene, Lupin tells Sirius 
Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts, and Sirius is extremely surprised. I 
think at that moment they silently share the opinion that it is not 
only surprising and strange and disquieting that Snape is locally 
present at Hogwarts, but also that he?s teaching. He clearly wasn?t 
meant to be.

So I?m fairly convinced that of all reasons why Dumbledore made Snape 
come to Hogwarts (be it to provide him with a safe place, to keep an 
eye on him or whatever), it was certainly *not* because Dumbledore 
thought him a good teacher. Letting him teach is probably no more than 
a pretext of keeping him at Hogwarts.

So I think the question of Snape?s teaching qualifications and 
qualities should be settled - there are none, that?s all.
 




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 10:39:33 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:39:33 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's teaching style
Message-ID: <LAW2-F31ZhCl8aii08N00000d80@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16984

lea wrote:

>Right. Lets face it: this guy is a pedagogical nightmare. The
>question is not whether he is a good or a bad teacher, he is *no
>teacher* at all, its as simple as that. Ive never known or read
>about a person less qualified (in character and personal enthusiasm)
>to be a teacher than him.
>
>And he knows. He hates his job. And he doesnt mind other people
>knowing. The "dunderhead" speach makes it clear enough.
<snip>
>So I think the question of Snapes teaching qualifications and
>qualities should be settled - there are none, thats all.
>
I *try* not to send "me too" postings, but this is so good I have to say 
thanks - I originally posted that Snape was "a *terrible* teacher", but "no 
teacher" is precisely right - it *does* settle the question for me, and at 
that point my mind is at rest now.

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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 17 10:40:34 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:40:34 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters international?
Message-ID: <9bh6j2+lpfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16985

This has been bothering me for a while, and it didn?t really come up 
on the MoM and Muggle government thread...

Were/Are the DE an international movement? When Voldemort was in 
power, did he aim at taking over in Britain alone or the whole world?

Wizards do have a rather clear concept of nationality, and wizarding 
institutions (schools, ministries, Quidditch teams) all seem to be 
nationally based. So it seems to me that the DE were based in Britain, 
too. But then there is Karkaroff, and someone (I think Draco) says in 
GoF that at Durmstrang, students actually learn the Dark Arts.
But then, Karkaroff is the only obviously foreign DE we know so far, 
isn?t he?

Any thoughts?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 10:41:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:41:31 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy; Hermione in H/R fight (long)
In-Reply-To: <9bfehc+vbhf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bh6kr+hl04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16986

Demelza wrote:

>Wait a second, you could have no evidence to support that Ron is 
>jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners, yet you still won't 
>accept that evidence until you have evidence to prove that he _isn't_ 
>jealous of Harry's fame and attention he garners?? In other words, 
>you need to prove that Ron _is not_ jealous in order to believe he is 
>not jealous (if I understand correctly what you have written).

No, that isn't what I meant at all.  (And when I look at your first 
sentence, it looks like something akin to an attempt to prove a 
negative:  you say "no evidence" and then say "that evidence" as if a 
lack of evidence were evidence in itself.)

This is what I meant:

I do have evidence that Ron is jealous:  his best friend says he is.  
That is not hard proof, to be sure, but it's significant nonetheless.

What I was saying was that I do not see any evidence to counter 
Hermione's view.  If I did, I would have to weigh the evidence--"HG 
says A, but I've seen B . . ."  But since I don't see anything, either 
in Ron's past actions or Hermione's, to contradict her view that Ron 
is jealous, I accept that view.  Tentatively, of course, and with the 
knowledge that she could be mistaken or that future events could 
change things radically.

Furthermore, although there isn't any instance of Ron showing jealousy 
prior to that point, the way I perceive Ron's character up to that 
point, it is plausible and fitting that he does get jealous of Harry. 
 It's as if Hermione said "Ron is very close to his grandfather."  We 
see no evidence of it, but in the absence of counterevidence, and in 
the presence of vaguely supportive facts like his having gotten his 
chess set from him (PS/SS 12), I would assume that it is most likely 
true.

Let me give another example of something I see in the books that 
appeared suddenly but not "out the blue," and that I've been meaning 
to write an excursus on for quite a while:  Harry's discomfort with 
people staring at his scar (and, by extension, with his fame).  This 
is almost entirely a creation of the first several chapters of GoF.  
In GoF ch. 2 it says that after a while in the wizarding world, he got 
used to people staring at his scar; we see Amos Diggory, Bagman, and 
Karkaroff staring at it; and we see Harry's discomfort with Colin's 
pointing him out to Dennis.  By the time of the Ron/Harry fight, it's 
a well-established fact that Harry feels his fame to be a burden and 
his scar in particular to be a source of irritation (and I don't mean 
when Voldemort is in a bad mood <g>).

Not so in the three previous books.  In PA Harry leaves the common 
room because he "wasn't in the mood to have a lot of people staring 
avidly at the scar on his forehead."  That is the only mention I can 
think of in books 1-3 that really conveys the discomfort that will 
become a theme in 4.  Yeah, he doesn't like being followed around by 
Colin in 2, but Colin's uniquely annoying; I don't get the sense that 
Harry feels that his fame is a burden generally.  And yet when JKR 
introduces it in 4, I don't think "where the hell did that come from?" 
or "that can't be the case."  I accept it entirely--and I look back 
and see little moments in the earlier books that, while they aren't 
indications that everyone stares at Harry's forehead, point to it 
eventually becoming a theme.  They are just little touches up to that 
point, and before I read GoF I would have said that they didn't add up 
to Harry having a significant problem with being famous--but =in the 
light of what we learn about him in GoF=, they are significant.

It could be that Harry has actually changed--that at 14 his fame is 
difficult for him in a way that it hasn't been since he first went to 
Hogwarts.  Or it could be that JKR has just decided to begin 
highlighting this aspect of his character.  The same is true with Ron; 
perhaps he has struggled with jealousy from day one, or perhaps it has 
become a problem only recently.  But in any case, as with Harry's 
fame/scar troubles, I can look back and say, "Yeah, it fits."

Demelza wrote:

>Ron's consolatory statement smacks of self-depreciation. It's 
>not hard to understand the "bitterness" in his voice when he just 
>intimated that he's a loser.

I agree.  I wouldn't read too much into the "bitterness" comment.  I 
just think it supports, though not strongly, the idea that Ron has 
appeared jealous in the past.  And whatever the reason, sounding 
bitter when talking about a friend's likely success in contrast to 
one's own likely failure is possible evidence of jealousy.

Again, I'm not trying to say that there is =any= evidence for Ron's 
jealousy before we hear about it from Hermione.  I am saying that in 
light of her comment, and in the absence of counterevidence, I 
conclude that he has probably in fact been jealous.

>But my next question would be is, why would Hermione think that 
because someone isn't 
>always  in the limelight, would mean that he is specifically jealous 
>of another's celebrity?

She might be guessing.  Or she might have (certainly has) perceived 
aspects of Ron that we haven't had opportunities to witness--some 
occasion when his jealousy was more obvious than it has been in our 
hearing, so to speak.  I rely on the Trio's insights into one another 
to fill out what I see firsthand of their characters.  In CoS, Fred 
(or is it George?) says that Molly fancies Lockhart.  Do we have to 
think that he reached that conclusion purely on the basis of things we 
have been privy to?  Of course not.  He knows his mother and he has 
seen her responses to Lockhart before, "off the page."  (We, of 
course, don't have to believe him...)  Dumbledore says in PS/SS that 
Snape and James disliked each other.  We have no evidence at that 
point that that is true.  We accept it as probably true because 
Dumbledore says it and we tend to trust him--and because later 
statements by Snape himself confirm it.

>(ex. studying material over and over even though the material is 
mastered)

Yeah, I agree--that would be a bad sign.  I just still don't know why 
people keep assuming this of Hermione.  She is definitely 
perfectionistic when it comes to her schoolwork, but that doesn't mean 
that she doesn't have a clear idea of when she has mastered it and 
when she can stop studying.  (Except for waking up in the night and 
studying notes for an exam she's already taken (PS/SS 16)! <g> But she 
did quit once she remembered she'd taken it already.)  The "learning 
the course books off by heart" example is more persuasive, and is the 
only line I can think of that makes me think she over-studies (not 
that I take it literally--it has to be hyperbole).  I think it's 
significant that this is the first scene with Hermione.  She is 
anxious to impress and her academic anxiety is at an all-time high.  
Fortunately for her and all of us, it declines as the books go on...

>You're guess is as good as mine why Hermione would tell 
>Harry that Ron is jealous. Could she have had the best intentions at 
>heart when she told Harry that? <snip> Again, what is the motive? 
>Although there's not enough information to definitively answer that 
>question, it doesn't mean it should be asked. 

We agree again!  Here's my best guess as to why she told him:  She 
really thinks it is true that Ron is jealous, and she is hoping that 
by understanding Ron's motivation, Harry will have more sympathy and 
bury the hatchet.

If I were trying to get two friends to make up, this would be one of 
my approaches:  try to get each of them to understand what is behind 
the other's unreasonable behavior.  ("Harry, Ron doesn't really think 
you're a liar--the problem is that he's jealous."  "Ron, Harry doesn't 
really think you're stupid--the problem is that he's under a lot of 
stress because he doesn't want to be Champion and is scared about why 
someone would have put his name in.")  A naive approach, often, but a 
well-meaning one.  It doesn't follow that because she is a good judge 
of character, especially Harry's and Ron's, she should be able to 
anticipate that Harry won't be softened by this information.  
Being a good judge of character doesn't mean you bat a 
thousand.  Besides, in the long run I think it did help.  In the short 
run, it =may= have made Harry less inclined to make up (there might be 
other reasons, but I won't get into that right this second), but 
that's because this new perspective on their relationship and the 
import of his fame will take some getting used to.  Once he has time 
to assimilate it, it may give him a better appreciation of Ron all 
around.  

>In terms of Hermione's judgement, I believe I've addressed that in a 
>prior message.

And I've argued with you before, e.g. about Crookshanks. <g> You are 
absolutely right in saying that Hermione's judgment can be 
clouded--re: Lockhart, etc.  She is not a =perfect= judge of 
character, IMO, just, in general, a very good one.

>Unless I'm not understanding this example properly, what 
>you and Amy are saying is if a friend tells you that your next-door 
>neighbor is child-molesterer and doesn't show you any evidence 
>supporting that claim, you would believe your friend on the basis 
>that it was your friend who told you.

Well, no, that doesn't parallel the RHH issue.  First of all, I 
wouldn't believe this on any one person's say-so, because 
child-molesting is a very serious offense, and I would subject it to a 
very high standard of proof.

Second, the issue isn't that it's =my= friend; the issue is that it's 
=the accused molester's= friend.  In other words, two of the things I 
would weigh in trying to decide whether to believe the accusation are 
(1) how likely the person is to know the facts, and (2) how likely 
he/she is to tell the truth.

To scale the problem back to a less heinous offense than molesting 
children:  Hermione says Ron is jealous.  I think, "Hermione knows Ron 
well."  Point one in favor of her insight being believable.  "Hermione 
cares very much for Ron and wishes him well, and is therefore unlikely 
to misrepresent his feelings."  Point two.  "Hermione is generally a 
good judge of character."  Point three.  She could still be wrong--as 
you point out, her judgments aren't always right, and statements like 
this one about Ron always have a question mark anyway--but all in all 
I'm inclined to accept her view.

>To say that Ron is jealous of Harry in, for example, Ch 26 and that's 
what Hermione in Ch 18 
>used to determine he was jealous is an ex post facto argument, which 
>is generally believed to be illogical.

Correct.  =Hermione= can't use something that hasn't happened yet to 
make her determination.  But WE can say "Chapter 22 tells us something 
about Ron that we didn't know before, and knowing human nature, he 
probably exhibited those traits a few months earlier as well."  The 
characters aren't bound by our puny limits; they know lots about each 
other that we don't know, and we rely on them to fill in the blanks 
about each other.  See my example of Dumbledore's reporting on Snape & 
James's relationship, above; it isn't confirmed by Snape until 2 
=books= later, and never, of course, by James.  Does that make it 
untrue or unreliable?  

I don't quite think this is a continuity issue, as Penny suggests; 
it's a matter of JKR letting different aspects of the characters 
emerge at different times.  The characters change and grow, and also, 
we see aspects of them that might have been there for years but that 
the story did not reveal until this point.  (Just as she reveals the 
creatures, spells, devices, etc. of the magical world a bit at a 
time.)

>Wait a minute! I never intimated that Hermione was a pathological 
>liar. Please refrain from 'putting words' into my messages. 
>Questioning motive and veracity is not equivalent to saying that she 
>is a pathologic liar. 

But you =are= saying that her issues with Ron are substantial enough 
to motivate her to lie outright to Harry about her perceptions.

E.g., you wrote in message #16786: "you can't possibly argue that 
Hermione is truthfully 
                 reporting to Harry her impression at the feast. We 
aren't privy to
                 her thought process. In order to objectively 
determine her veracity, 
                 you must examine all of Hermione's past behaviors, 
especially those 
                 concerning Ron."

and in message #16441, you wrote:  "Only AFTER Harry 
                 tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she 
noticed his 
                 demeanor and that she believed him."

You also pointed out in this context that Harry wanted to talk with 
Ron before this conversation but no longer does afterwards, that 
Hermione has a motive for lying when she said she recognized that 
Harry was shocked by the Goblet, and that you find the whole 
interchange "moderately disturbing."  I thought you were saying that 
you are disturbed because it seems Hermione is deliberately prolonging 
the conflict between Ron and Harry, but I might be reading you wrong. 
 Is this what you meant?  Or were you only suggesting that the bit 
about her knowing Harry was upset was a lie?  That seems improbable to 
me, but at least I can understand a possible motive for that.

As far as her truthfulness about Ron's jealousy goes:  Hermione could 
be mistaken about it, but I cannot for the life of me see how she 
could be being malicious with her assertion that he's jealous.  It 
appears to me to be a good-faith attempt to get Harry to see things 
from Ron's point of view.  It doesn't work, at least in the short run, 
but it isn't a lie, nor is her intention bad as far as I can 
tell.  If her intention =was= to fan the flames, why would she say 
this anyway?  There are so many more effective things she could say: 
"Yes, I saw Ron at breakfast, and he's really pissed off at you," or 
"What do you expect from Ron?  He's an immature prat.  Forget about 
him, Harry," or "Ron was telling everyone at the table that you were 
bragging about sneaking into the Tournament..."  The potential for 
sowing discord between two friends who are already fighting is vast.  
Hermione chooses to try to bring them closer together.

>Doing schoolwork during summer vacation, when none has been assigned 
is a behavior. 

Hermione is hyperconscientious about her schoolwork, but the evidence 
that she does summer schoolwork that hasn't been assigned is fuzzy at 
best.  JKR is quite unclear on whether they have summer assignments or 
not.  The above statement comes from CoS (ch ?  It's at the 
Burrow...my CoS is on the floor on the far side of my sleeping spouse, 
so I can't get at it), but CoS also states that Harry is afraid of 
getting behind because his schoolbooks are locked up (ch 1).  In PoA 
they have homework to do over the summer (ch 1).  In GoF Molly doesn't 
believe Fred and George have homework because it's the summer.  The 
jury is out on whether they consistently have summer assignments or 
not.

Right on on the "good grades don't correlate with financial success" . 
. . I have always been a good student, have 2 master's degrees in 
my field, and am living on a shoestring . . . there ain't no justice! 
 (What I want to know is, how come bad actors and mediocre ball 
players are rich and brilliant teachers and fantastic nurses are poor? 
 But you =really= don't want to hear my Why the Assertion 
that Capitalism is Fair is a Crock rant.)

And your story about your grades . . . I really sympathize.  You're 
even more of a Hermione than I am, Demelza!  It took me 'til age 30 to 
realize that the term "perfectionist" applied to me.  There is a 
support group for recovering Hermiones--please join us!  We follow the 
12 steps, the 12th of which is oven cleaner.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
 Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead
 wrinkled with effort.  "There's a blob a bit
 like a bowler hat," he said.  "Maybe you're 
 going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ."
               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 10:57:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:57:15 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <9bg5fa+1u8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bh7ib+uvmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16987

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> As to what analogy JKR had in mind with the House Elves, I think we 
are 
> all overlooking the obvious...what group in our Muggle world does 
most 
> of the housework? Who doesn't get paid for doing it? And doesn't get 
> pensions or paid holidays? And is supposed to consider it all a 
labor 
> of love? And to think this group is largely female. Be ashamed. Be 
very 
> ashamed. ;)

Hey, come on, Pippin . . . men do 25% of the housework in 
both-work-outside-the-home couples!  I'm telling you, these women, all 
they ever do is complain.

;-)
Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out 
 if you like it the shape it is.  Can't see why
 you would, but--"
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 11:17:53 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <025301c0c708$264696c0$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20010417111753.6887.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16988

-- Denise R <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> How about one more step in this direction?  They only appear to
> other "Marauders?"  Hence, Pettigrew, Lupin or Sirius would not 
> appear to Snape, but if Lupin had the map, he'd instantly know 
> Pettigrew or Sirius were about!

In PoA, Snape went charging out the castle door to the Whomping
Willow because he saw the Map on Lupin's desk.  If he couldn't see
Sirius or Lupin, why did he go after H, H & R?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 05:41:50 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 05:41:50 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wither Winky? (was Re: House Elves, namely Winky)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F103FY6mTBb5VY000068b9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16989

Aaargh, no! Dobby can't die, otherwise who's going to marry Winky and open 
up that successful wizard eaterie chain, "The Golden Sock"?  Interesting 
ideas though.  Winky is pretty powerful when she chooses - I wonder what it 
meant that she was able to "bind" Crouch to her.  I wouldn't like to be the 
one who tried to whack her.  What happens to a loyal house-elf when all of 
the family are dead? Could she (dramatic chords) go over to the Dark Side??


>From: "Rosmerta" <tmayor at mediaone.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wither Winky? (was Re: House Elves, namely Winky)
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:56:44 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote....
>And Winky's grief
> > makes her, as someone (apologies for lack of credit) rightly said,
>the most
> > tragic character in the book.
> >
>Has Winky's future already been discussed anywhere? Because it seems
>to me that she might have more bad things coming her way, namely that
>Voldemort is going to try to whack her. She knows an awful lot about
>Crouch's and Pettigrew's doings and she's still at large in the
>stronghold of Hogwarts. It would make a lot of sense for Voldemort to
>try and get rid of her before the good guys wrest any more
>information out of her.
>
>My personal pet theory is that V's henchmen try to kill her, Dobby
>tries to defend her and is himself killed, thereby becoming
>the "special friend" that is rumored to die in one of the upcoming
>books. I've seen a lot of discussion various places about
>what "special" means, but maybe it means "house elf."
>
>~Rosmerta
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Tue Apr 17 11:50:14 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:50:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape's Hate
Message-ID: <20010417115014.4F55236F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16990

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010417/c0d359c4/attachment.ksh>

From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 11:53:40 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:53:40 -0000
Subject: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
In-Reply-To: <9bg3eb+5lkq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bhas4+6nq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16991

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicki Granger" <junkjunkjunk2000 at h...> 
> wrote:
> > *delurks*
> > 
> > Scott Wrote:
> > Could Harry be a squib? ... So what would this have to do with 
the 
> > gleam in Dumbledore's eye?
> > 
> > My Reply: *ignores simultaneous groans*
> > 
> > Picture this...
> > 
> > James and Lily Potter, Head Boy and Girl of Hogwarts and 
extremely 
> > powerful duo have a baby. It turns out that the boy is a Squib, 
or 
> > In Harry's fourth year, Harry's blood is used to bring back 
Vodemort
> ------------snip--------------
> > But in the blood still is Squibness. Voldemort obviously 
> > still has powers, but maybe the Squib blood weakens them 
> sufficiently 
> > so that he isn't as majorly a threat? Maybe with Squib blood 
he'll 
> be 
> > defeated more easily or unable to do as much?
> > 
> > I'm not sure if that totally makes sense... but hey, it's a 
boring 
> > afternoon and I've got time to think through theories like this :)
> > 
> > ========
> > ~*Vicki Granger*~
> 
> 
> 
> Actually,It makes perfect Sense. I had the idea that it would be 
> something in Harry's blood tha would be V's down fall. It could 
also 
> make sense, since JKR has  said that there will only be 7 HP books. 
> and may even be highlighted in the Harry will die theories. 
> Maybe Harry will die as a wizard, but live on as a squib.

I really, really hate this theory about Harry's potential squibness. 
(Just so you are clear there! <g>) I do not discount it in any way, 
so am therefore not adding anything useful to the discussion, but I 
just wanted to state, that the thought of Harry becoming a squib 
absolutely breaks my heart.  It would be so humiliating for him!  
Just imagine, one of the most famous living wizards losing his 
powers, and being reduced to taking a non-magic role.  How would 
everyone treat him?  I can't imagine him wanting to go and live 
solely in the Muggle world.  Harry the accountant anyone?  Part of 
the attraction of Harry, besides his bravery, loyalty, vulnerability 
etc. is his magic.  It is also the one thing which has rescued him 
from a mundane and miserable existence at the Dursleys.  To take it 
away from him would be as bad as amputating a limb.  If the only way 
Harry could defeat Voldy was by losing his magical ability (although 
I can't see why this would happen), I am sure he would stoically 
accept it.  But it just seems a very unfair conclusion!

Okay, rant over.
Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 12:19:06 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:19:06 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bgips+dvgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bhcbq+nrmo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16992

A quibble re: the Marauder's Map, and I think that the answer which 
will probably come back is "suspend your disbelief!"
Is the map 3D.  I find it hard to visulise how the whole of Hogwarts, 
floor by floor, tower by tower etc can be reproduced on a Map unless 
it is three dimensional or comprises of many different plans.
Has this been covered before or am I the only one so analy retentive?
Catherine

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> The Marauder's Map may be showing what is relevant to the area or 
> situation. Wormtail new it did not show the inside of Hagrids hut 
so 
> he hid there. It insulted Snape when he tried to activate it. 
> Interesting theory about movement, Scabbers [wormtail] was moving 
> along with Ron when he was being dragged. 
> 
> Bugg -- also from Ravenclaw 
> 
> 
> meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > This definitely has come up before, and I thought that perhaps 
the 
> map doesn't show every corner in the castle every time one looks at 
> it.  I like your theory about what is moving is shown on the map, 
but 
> I also think that the map doesn't always show each and every thing. 
> Harry also does not look for every single person, creature or ghost 
> when he uses the map!
> --jenny from ravenclaw************************************* 
> 
> kel4 wrote: 
> And on page 193, again of the US edition, it shows Harry standing 
> next to the humpbacked witch; he's not moving. It also shows him 
> tapping it and saying Dissendium, even though he hasn't done either 
> of those things. 
> 
> heidit wrote: 
> Lupin says on page 347 that he thought the map 
was "malfunctioning" - 
> that may be because he saw 2 harrys and 2 hermiones. Of course, 
it's 
> possible that they were *off map* when they were hiding on the edge 
> of the forbidden forrest, as they might have been when Lupin looked 
> at the map.




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 12:24:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:24:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves...
References: <9bfpff+jk95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC361B.608B8F31@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16993

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> I still agree with you, Scott.  House Elves seem to be quite able to
> take care of themselves - it is the wizard world that makes it
> difficult for them.

"seem." We know almost no details about house elves. And what exactly is
the wizarding world making difficult for them? I'm not sure of what
you're saying.

>  Remember Dobby saying how hard it was to get work
> once he had been freed (GoF)?

Only because he wanted to be paid. Which is, so far as we've seen, a
groundbreaking innovation.

> Also, if it so natural for elves to serve wizards, then why is it so
> hard for elves to leave the wizards they serve?

Because it's natural for elves to serve wizards. It's hard to go against
your nature.

>  Dobby couldn't even get away on his own - in the end,
> Harry was the one who freed him.  Why cast a spell to keep someone
> bound to you if they want to serve you in the first place?

Who said the wizards cast the binding spell? That's another thing we
don't know. It may be something in the makeup of the elf that does the
binding. I'm not saying the wizards *didn't,* I'm just saying that we
all seem to be making some great big assumptions about the relationship,
on very scanty detail.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 12:31:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:31:46 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <3ADC361B.608B8F31@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bhd3i+vbgm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16994


> 
> Who said the wizards cast the binding spell? That's another thing we
> don't know. It may be something in the makeup of the elf that does 
the
> binding. I'm not saying the wizards *didn't,* I'm just saying that 
we
> all seem to be making some great big assumptions about the 
relationship,
> on very scanty detail.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 

Okay, so you've nicely taken apart my argument, but I still feel that 
House Elves have it bad.  Do you also think that JKR intended to 
create the House Elves as wanting to serve as part of their nature?  
If so, what message might she be trying to get across?  

I'm really grappling with the House Elf theme, because I just don't 
know for sure where JKR is taking it.  I'd still like to see them all 
freed and paid for their work, especially when I remember how badly 
Dobby was treated by the Malfoys (he had to bash his head against the 
wall whenever he said anything slightly negative about them) or how 
Winky was humiliated like that by Crouch Sr.  My heart just goes out 
to them!  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw*********************




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 00:36:58 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:36:58 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
Message-ID: <LAW2-F101iF0Hr5F5ws00008053@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16995

House-elves, by their own account, like work.  That doesn't mean they like 
being exploited.

CoS
"'Ah, if Harry Potter only knew!...If he knew what he means to us, to the 
lowly, the enslaved, us dregs of the magical world!  Dobby remembers how it 
was when He Who Must Not Be Named was at the height of his powers, sir!  We 
house-elves were treated like vermin, sir!...mostly, sir, life has improved 
for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be Named...Harry Potter 
shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the dark days would 
never end, sir..."


>From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and holidays
>Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:13:12 -0500
>
>Morag Traynor wrote:
>
> > You're quite right in what you say (apart from its being just you, of
> > course :) ) but I don't recall Harry even making the kind of feeble
> > excuses we all make in such situations.  My considered opinion is, he
> > pays more attention to whether the house-elves he meets are happy,
> > than to abstract arguments about rights and justice - and, with the
> > obvious exception of Winky, for quite different reasons, they do seem
> > happy at Hogwarts.  I just don't think he's making the connection at
> > this stage.
>
>I don't think I am either. I think this is a relationship which is
>mutually beneficial. I think there is that in the house-elves' nature
>that makes them truly enjoy doing what they do. That we perceive what
>they do as "serving" is our problem. They have a fulfilled, purposeful
>existence, untroubled by our definitions of what they do.
>
>House-elves are not little homo sapiens. They are a *different species.*
>Our definitions don't necessarily apply. And even in our own species,
>the idea of what constitutes one's rights or justice varies considerably
>from culture to culture. I posted eons ago my belief that simply
>imposing our values on another culture, without fully understanding its
>inherent intricacies and balances, can cause tremendous damage to that
>culture. I think Hermione's intentions are laudable, but she doesn't
>know the entire story. She's operating on appearances. Whenever
>reformation slides into "whether you want it or not" I start to be
>hesitant.
>
>--Amanda
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 13:22:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:22:27 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher - Opening Gambits quiz
Message-ID: <9bhg2j+sdre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16996

Lea wrote:

>Remember in PoA, in the Shrieking shack scene, Lupin tells Sirius 
>Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts, and Sirius is extremely surprised.

Sirius does not, however, seem very surprised that Lupin is.  We can 
take this as a sign that Lupin is a born teacher, which is obvious in 
any case.  But I wondered about it for another reason:  when Lupin 
bursts into the Shrieking Shack, is it the first time Sirius has any 
idea that he is at Hogwarts?  I find this very intriguing 
emotionally--of all the things to happen, his other best friend comes 
rushing up the stairs, looking 12 years older but otherwise talking to 
him as if they'd seen each other yesterday.  And his being the one to 
apprehend him, although it rapidly develops that that's not what Lupin 
is there for.

It's possible, of course, that Sirius saw him at a Quidditch match.

Anyway, back to your point . . . I laughed out loud when I read "Let?s 
face it: this guy is a pedagogical nightmare," and if a kid of mine 
were put in a class with Snape I'd pull him/her out before you could 
blink, but I doubt that Sirius's surprise has to do with Snape being 
an unthinkable teacher.  It is just very unlikely that any particular 
schoolmate is going to end up a teacher at your old school.

>So I think the question of Snape?s teaching qualifications and 
>qualities should be settled - there are none, that?s all.

Settled, right . . . when Snape ice-dances to "Bolero" in hell.  
Something tells me this subject is not closed.


Caius, I hope you're going to post the answers to your quiz?  

Here's one that you didn't include, probably because it's too easy, 
but I thought it was so funny that it deserved a mention:  "I'm not 
Fred, I'm George."

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
 song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
 teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 13:26:26 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:26:26 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
Message-ID: <F1485EaPbp3cvpzTHkz00004478@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 16997

Hi, Caius and list--

I *love* famous openings.  A character's first line says so much about 
them...

I can't put my finger on the books right now.  This is all I can remember 
off the top of my head; hopefully someone can pick up where I leave off.  
Besides, it's CHEATING to look in the books.  Much more fun to see how much 
you remember off the top of your head.

(BTW, I'm really looking forward to the kick-off of Two Weeks of Harry.  
There's a lot I have to say... and I've been waiting for this very 
opportunity to say it.  ;-))

>
>"Good afternoon,"
>
>"Bad business, Hagrid,"
>
>"Expelliarmus!"--Sirius Black?
>
>"Ahoy there!"
>
>"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
>
>"Miss - er -?"
>
>"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" -- Draco Malfoy.
>
>"Mom.geroff,"--Ron Weasley.
>
>"Has anyone seen a toad?" -- Hermione Granger.
>
>"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
>
>"No thank you Ludo"
>
>"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?"
>
>"Ah, yes. Harry Potter"
>
>"Harry Potter!"
>
>"It can't be Harry Potter?"
>
>"All right, Harry?"
>
>"Hello, Harry Potter."
>
>"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."
>
>"Are you serious, Professor?"
>
>"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"... Mad-Eye Moody.
>
>"What are you looking for, boy?"
>
>"Use the boy....use the boy.."
>
>"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable,
>I am thinking"... Viktor Krum.
>
>"Absolutely not."
>
>"Thirty-six"
>
>"What a night,"--Professor McGonagall.
>
>"Can't stay long, mother"
>
>"Greenhouse three today, chaps!"--Professor Sprout.
>
>"What?"
>
>"Nearly,"
>
>"Quiet"
>
>"Oh!"
>
>"A small gillywater --" Madam Rosmerta.
>
>"Little tyke"--either Marge or Vernon Dursley.
>
>"What's that you're calling me?"
>
>"Hi"
>
>"packed with Muggles, of course"--HAS to be one of the Weasleys.
>
>Maybe not that small, Ludo"
>
>"No..Why?"
>
>"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"


Wow--I have guesses on more than a dozen of the above, but without the books 
in hand, I can't be sure!  As for the one-worders, I have no clue.  And I 
have no idea what Harry said first... isn't that a shame?

I suppose I just lost, but someone had to go first, right?

Remember, no looking in the books... we're on the honor system here. :-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

"Those who have ceased to love
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that
Never ask, the minds that never
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 13:26:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:26:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves...
References: <F1434aJ6pkNzPZrIkyP00003b9c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC446D.C12ACF19@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 16998

Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote:

<lots of really good points, then said>

> There is nothing symbiotic about the relationship between wizards and
> house-elves.  I agree with Amy Z.  From what we've seen in canon, the
> elves get the short end of the stick.

Here it is again--everyone always must include "seems" or "from what
we've seen." I repeat, we know almost nothing about the particulars of
the relationship of house-elves to wizards.

-- We know there is a magical bond. BUT: We don't know how it
originated. We don't know from which side it stems. We don't know if
it's hereditary to a "family" of house-elves. We don't know if young
house-elves go out to seek their fortune, or are bound to the family or
old house in which they were born.We don't even know how, if, or when
house-elves breed (I assume they do, given there's two genders).

-House elves are found in old families with manors and money:
    "Well, whoever owns him will be an old wizarding family, and they'll
be rich," said Fred.
    "Yeah, Mum's always wishing we had a house-elf to do the ironing,"
said George. "But all we've got is a lousy old ghoul in the attic and
gnomes all over the garden. House-elves come with big old manors and
castles and places like that; you wouldn't catch one in our house...."
(p. 29, CoS, US)

BUT The elves might be bound to rich families simply because the rich
families are the ones likely to own the old manors and castles. It might
be the place as much as the occupants. This could be interpreted to
indicate that if you're rich, you can purchase an old house or castle,
and wow, you'd have house-elves! So they may be bound to the place,
first and foremost, and the family occupying it, second. Which doesn't
exactly sound like the wizards are the ones imposing the bond. We just
don't *know.*

If the elves are bound first to a family, we've thus far seen only Dobby
(Malfoy family), Winky (Crouch family), and the Hogwarts elves. That's a
pretty small sample. But the binding seems to be to families, not
individuals--families in the sense of many generations, institutions.
Hogwarts isn't a family, but headmaster follows headmaster in a sort of
generational pattern. But again, we don't *know.*

George's comment could also indicate that the elves may have a bit of
choice before their "binding," if "you wouldn't catch one" in the
Burrow.

--House-elves can be freed by giving them clothing. BUT of the entire
number of elves we've seen, only one was happy about that, and that
seems to be because he has a conscience and disliked that his former
masters were Dark wizards. The Voldemort years shook up more than the
wizards in the magical world.

And we're also getting snared by semantics. "Freed" to an elf is bad; it
means without any roots, having no home. "Enslaved" to an elf means a
purpose, a place in the world. Using such knee-jerk terms in new ways
seems very, very JKR to me. I am reminded of my medieval group, where
the members in creating a medieval persona so often want to be "their
own person," not in fealty to anyone, not bound to any lord. But in the
medieval viewpoint, if you weren't sworn to someone--a lord, the church,
something--you were outside society. Your social bonds were your place,
they defined who you were, your rights, your "dignities," your sphere.
Those who were not formally in society, were outside it--outlaws. It was
a different viewpoint, not "gotten" by many of our modern group, who
were after all raised on a different ethic.

I can appreciate the viewpoint of those making the slavery parallels,
but I've seen a distinct lack of any "oppressing" mechanisms. The elves
aren't being kept in their place, they're staying there. In my own
"seem" mode, there doesn't seem to be any sort of active propaganda.
There don't seem to be any sort of spells set to keep them in bounds. It
seems to have been assumed that the magical bond is something cast by a
wizard to hold the elf; I haven't seen any basis for this in canon, and
that would be the only "oppressive" thing, if it were true.

There simply may be that in the makeup of a house-elf that requires it
to be bound to a place or an institution. It may be the price they pay
for that "strong magic of their own" (although newly freed Dobby could
still blast Lucius down the stairs). The worst the wizards may have done
is take advantage of that necessity in the elves.

JKR seems to have spoon-fed us only those facts about a situation that
would lead us to jump to exactly the conclusions that it appears most of
us have, the conclusion Hermione's settled on. It's not necessarily
wrong, but it may well not be what it seems on the surface. I am
surprised, in fact, that Hermione hasn't learned more before she decided
what the case was, and that she isn't interested in hearing anything
that might moderate her view. She's usually so "gather all the
information first."

Lastly, how do you plug choice into the equation, when the elves are
making a choice we think is bad? Should we force them to have to choose
something we think is good? We are putting our values onto a different
culture, with very little information to go on. I, at least, will
reserve judgement of both the wizards as unthinking oppressors or the
elves as brainwashed slaves, until I know more about the situation.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 17 13:30:35 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:30:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D3D@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 16999

I love this! 
I'm going to add to Ebony's list: 
> >
> >"Good afternoon,"
> >
> >"Bad business, Hagrid,"
Fudge?
> >
> >"Expelliarmus!"--Sirius Black?
> >
> >"Ahoy there!"
> >
> >"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
Dean Thomas
> >
> >"Miss - er -?"
Professor Binns
> >
> >"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" -- Draco Malfoy.
> >
> >"Mom....geroff,"--Ron Weasley.
> >
> >"Has anyone seen a toad?" -- Hermione Granger.
> >
> >"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
> >
> >"No thank you Ludo"
> >
> >"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?"
Nearly Headless Nick
> >
> >"Ah, yes. Harry Potter"
Snape?
> >
> >"Harry Potter!"
> >
> >"It can't be Harry Potter?"
Was this someone in the Leaky Cauldron?
> >
> >"All right, Harry?"
> >
> >"Hello, Harry Potter."
> >
> >"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."
> >
> >"Are you serious, Professor?"
> >
> >"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"... Mad-Eye Moody.
> >
> >"What are you looking for, boy?"
> >
> >"Use the boy....use the boy.."
Voldemort, in Quirrell's head
> >
> >"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable,
> >I am thinking"... Viktor Krum.
> >
> >"Absolutely not."
> >
> >"Thirty-six"
> >
> >"What a night,"--Professor McGonagall.
> >
> >"Can't stay long, mother"
Percy
> >
> >"Greenhouse three today, chaps!"--Professor Sprout.
> >
> >"What?"
> >
> >"Nearly,"
> >
> >"Quiet"
It should have an exclamation point, if it's Professor Lupin
> >
> >"Oh!"
> >
> >"A small gillywater --" Madam Rosmerta.
> >
> >"Little tyke"--either Marge or Vernon Dursley. I'm pretty sure it's
vernon
> >
> >"What's that you're calling me?"
> >
> >"Hi"
> >
> >"...packed with Muggles, of course..."--HAS to be one of the Weasleys.
> >
> >Maybe not that small, Ludo"
> >
> >"No.....Why?"
> >
> >"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"
> 
>  



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Apr 17 13:40:21 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:40:21 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <20010417111753.6887.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bhh45+4jv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17000

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> 
> In PoA, Snape went charging out the castle door to the Whomping
> Willow because he saw the Map on Lupin's desk.  If he couldn't see
> Sirius or Lupin, why did he go after H, H & R?
> 
Yes - It must have been Lupin he saw here as the others would already 
have been in the shack at this time.  Also, while we're picking holes 
in these otherwise excellent theories, I think the users of the 
marauder's map (who I think are the intended marauders) Could easily 
need to see stationary people.  What if someone you don't want to meet 
is just waiting around the next corner or outside the one eyed witches 
hump?

Personally I think there are some issues around the marauders map 
which I tend to think are mistakes, although I can just about buy into 
the 'it doesn't show people not in the same timeframe' idea as 
changing time is against some fundamental magical rule (if I remember 
Hermione right).

Florence




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 13:49:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:49:13 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <3ADC361B.608B8F31@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bhhkp+nme3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17001

Amanda wrote:

> We know almost no details about house elves. And what exactly is
> the wizarding world making difficult for them? 


> > Also, if it so natural for elves to serve wizards, then why is it 
so
> > hard for elves to leave the wizards they serve?
> 
> Because it's natural for elves to serve wizards. It's hard to go 
against
> your nature.

This isn't the reason Dobby stays with the Malfoys.  It may be the 
reason Winky stays with the Crouch family, but when her situation with 
them becomes untenable (because of Crouch's fear that she will expose 
his own crime, not for any failure of her own), they don't have a nice 
amicable divorce--she is kicked out, publicly shamed, and considered 
an outcast.  Crouch, on the other hand, maintains his status in 
society; many people don't even think badly of him for acting as he 
did.

meboriqua wrote:

Why cast a spell to keep someone
> > bound to you if they want to serve you in the first place?

Amanda wrote:

> Who said the wizards cast the binding spell? That's another thing we
> don't know. It may be something in the makeup of the elf that does 
the
> binding. I'm not saying the wizards *didn't,* I'm just saying that 
we
> all seem to be making some great big assumptions about the 
relationship,
> on very scanty detail.

Does it matter who did the binding?  The question isn't whether 
wizards are evil, but whether house-elves are treated unjustly.  And 
if they are bound by some third party to serve wizards, why don't 
wizards recognize the tragedy of that and treat them with as much 
dignity and respect as is allowed by the enchantment?  Or are wizards, 
too, enchanted so that they can't help but call house-elves "Elf!"?  
(<---sarcasm alert)

Who among us would like to live like this?:

-Having powers that you cannot use.  "House-elves have got powerful 
magic of their own, but they can't usually use it without their 
masters' permission."  (CS 3)

-Having one's freedom be entirely the prerogative of the very people 
who benefit from your enslavement.  "A house-elf must be set free, 
sir." (CS 2)  Even if your masters threaten your life, you have no 
recourse to a system of justice--none that is effective for Dobby, at 
any rate.

-Having no money.  Whatever you are given to live on is all you have. 

-Being enchanted so that whenever you disobey your masters' wishes, 
you are forced to burn, bash, or twist parts of your body.  This is 
largely played for comedy, but 2+ months after barricading the 
platform, Dobby still has bandages on his hands from ironing them in 
punishment.  It's really not funny.

-Knowing a very important secret about a dangerous Dark Wizard plot 
that may kill many people and cause Hogwarts to be closed, but being 
unable to tell anyone (this is a good example of how the house-elves' 
oppression hurts wizards too . . .)


I think we know quite a lot about house-elves, and I think it is very 
obvious what is difficult about their lives.  The obvious explanation 
for the wizard-elf relationship, the one given by Fred (even though 
he's a supporter of the system) and Dobby and Mr. Weasley and 
Hermione, is that house-elves are enslaved.  Why go to such lengths to 
come up with an alternative explanation?

Amy Z

------------------------------------------
 Grenouille: I cannot go with you to the
   market today, Crapaud.
 Crapaud:  But Grenouille, I cannot carry
   the cow alone.
             -Quidditch Through the Ages
------------------------------------------




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 13:48:40 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <9bgf9e+r368@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010417134840.38596.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17002

--- wr7238 at worldnet.att.net wrote:
> I have read all four of the American versions with
> my boys. We are 
> now reading the British versions. Right now we are
> on PS/SS and just 
> finished chapter 6. Both boys brought up an
> interesting fact. Where 
> are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why
> didn't Dumbledore 
> send Harry to be with relations on that side? He
> must have had 
> someone to go to on that side of the family. Another
> point they also 
> mentioned was why just the Dursleys, his mom must
> have had other 
> relations to besides her sister. If he had a
> Godfather, where is his 
> Godmother? There was no mention of one. Only his
> Godfather. Just some 
> more to think about Harry's childhood.
> Witchwanda or Wanda The Witch

Dumbledore says that the Dursleys are Harry's only
relatives, period.  It's not inconceivable that he
wouldn't have any other relatives on his father's
side, if there was a string of only children or if
everyone else had been much older than James and died
by then.  Obviously Lily and Petunia's parents have
died already, and one would presume that they didn't
have any aunts or uncles, etc.  It's not common, but
it's not unheard of.  And I don't believe it's
required for there to be an even number of godfathers
and godmothers.  One could have only a godfather, or
two godmothers and one godfather, etc.  



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 13:57:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:57:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
References: <9bgmig+8ee0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC4BE1.CEAFDF68@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17003

You evil man. Of course I had to do it right away, off the top of my
head. You must post the answers later, of course....!

Caius Marcius wrote:

> The following is a list of the first line of dialogue uttered by
> various HP characters. Can you identify the speaker, and also give the
> book and chapter? (Note: I am only including what the speaker first
> utters when "on screen"- dialogue attributed to specific characters by
> others   ? such as Sirius' "He's at Hogwarts," is not
> included under this definition)
>
>
> "Good afternoon,"
>
> "Bad business, Hagrid,"

Cornelius Fudge. Um, in Hagrid's hut, as they're coming to take him
away, ha, ha, in PoA?

> "Expelliarmus!"

Sirius Black, disarming Harry or Hermione in the Shack?

> "Ahoy there!"
>
> "Send him off, ref! Red card!"

Dean Thomas, book 1, during the first (?) Quidditch match we see. (or
was it Seamus? one of the Muggle-born boys in Harry's year in
Gryffindor)

> "Miss - er -?"

Professor Binns, to Hermione, when she (gasp!) asks a question about the
Chamber of Secrets in CoS.

> "Hello. Hogwarts, too?"

Draco Malfoy, book 1, when Harry and he are getting fitted for school
robes side by side in Madam Malkin's. I think.

> "Mom
.geroff,"

Ron, book 1, as the Weasley crew are getting onto the Hogwarts express.
We haven't been introduced yet, I don't think, we just know he's the
youngest red-haired boy.

> "Has anyone seen a toad?"

Hermione, when she came into the compartment on the train, looking for
Neville's toad. Also before we were introduced by name. Just after
Neville came down looking for his toad.

> "Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
>
> "No thank you Ludo"

Bartemius Crouch, Sr., refusing tea at the camp of the Weasleys at the
World Cup. I think.

> "My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?"

One of the ghosts, I think Nick, during the conversation they were
having when they drifted out of the wall, scaring the first-years as
they waited to be summoned to the Sorting ceremony, book 1.

> "Ah, yes. Harry Potter"

Mr. Ollivander, when Hagrid brings Harry to his wand shop, book 1...?

> "Harry Potter!"
>
> "It can't be Harry Potter?"
>
> "All right, Harry?"

Colin Creevy, book 2?

> "Hello, Harry Potter."
>
> "They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."

Filch? Looking for Harry on one of his nocturnal wanderings in book 1?
Or is it Peeves?

> "Are you serious, Professor?"
>
> "OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"

Hagrid, to Uncle Vernon in the hut on the rock, when Vernon's gone for
his rifle, book 1?

> "What are you looking for, boy?"
>
> "Use the boy....use the boy.."

Voldemort, from his perch on the back of Quirrell's head during the
search for the stone, book 1.

> "Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable,
> I am thinking"

Viktor Krum? Not sure when, during the feast, to Hermione?

> "Absolutely not."
>
> "Thirty-six"

Dudley, after counting his birthday presents, and finding two less than
he got last year...oooo....book 1.

> "What a night,"
>
> "Can't stay long, mother"
>
> "Greenhouse three today, chaps!"

Professor Sprout, looking distinctly disgruntled, after a morning of
fixing the Whomping Willow with Lockhart's "help," book 2.

> "What?"
>
> "Nearly,"
>
> "Quiet"
>
> "Oh!"
>
> "A small gillywater --"

Madam Rosmerta, identifying drink orders to the assembled party of
professors and Fudge in the pub at Hogsmeade (forgot the name), just
before the scene when Harry overhears that Sirius Black is his
godfather.

> "Little tyke"

Vernon Dursley, about baby Dudley, as he goes off to work on the very
odd day that has owls flying about in the daytime and shooting stars
over Kent, book 1.

> "What's that you're calling me?"
>
> "Hi"
>
> "
packed with Muggles, of course
"

Mrs. Weasley? One of the Weasleys, at any rate, in the train station,
overheard by Harry as he's panicking about finding platform 9 3/4. book
1.

> Maybe not that small, Ludo"
>
> "No
..Why?"
>
> "Not arguing, I hope, boys?"

Professor Flitwick? I know the scene, but I can't place the professor.
Isn't this when Draco's swiped Neville's remembrall, book 1? I'm not
sure.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 13:59:44 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:59:44 -0000
Subject: Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D3D@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9bhi8g+e1q2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17004

Adding....

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> I love this! 
> I'm going to add to Ebony's list: 
> > >
> > >"Good afternoon,"
> > >
> > >"Bad business, Hagrid,"
> Fudge?
> > >
> > >"Expelliarmus!"--Sirius Black?
> > >
> > >"Ahoy there!"
> > >
> > >"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
> Dean Thomas
> > >
> > >"Miss - er -?"
> Professor Binns
> > >
> > >"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" -- Draco Malfoy.
> > >
> > >"Mom....geroff,"--Ron Weasley.
> > >
> > >"Has anyone seen a toad?" -- Hermione Granger.
> > >
> > >"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
Karkaroff
> > >
> > >"No thank you Ludo"
Crouch Sr.?
> > >
> > >"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he 
deserves?"
> Nearly Headless Nick
> > >
> > >"Ah, yes. Harry Potter"
> Snape?
> > >
> > >"Harry Potter!"
> > >
> > >"It can't be Harry Potter?"
> Was this someone in the Leaky Cauldron?
Could it alos have been Fred or George?
> > >
> > >"All right, Harry?"
> > >
> > >"Hello, Harry Potter."
Tom Riddle, via his diary. Does his "memory" count as different from 
the present day Voldermort?
> > >
> > >"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."
Filch?
> > >
> > >"Are you serious, Professor?"
> > >
> > >"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"... Mad-Eye Moody.
> > >
> > >"What are you looking for, boy?"
> > >
> > >"Use the boy....use the boy.."
> Voldemort, in Quirrell's head
> > >
> > >"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as 
comfortable,
> > >I am thinking"... Viktor Krum.
> > >
> > >"Absolutely not."
> > >
> > >"Thirty-six"
> > >
> > >"What a night,"--Professor McGonagall.
> > >
> > >"Can't stay long, mother"
> Percy
> > >
> > >"Greenhouse three today, chaps!"--Professor Sprout.
> > >
> > >"What?"
> > >
> > >"Nearly,"
> > >
> > >"Quiet"
> It should have an exclamation point, if it's Professor Lupin
> > >
> > >"Oh!"
> > >
> > >"A small gillywater --" Madam Rosmerta.
> > >
> > >"Little tyke"--either Marge or Vernon Dursley. I'm pretty sure 
it's
> vernon
> > >
> > >"What's that you're calling me?"
> > >
> > >"Hi"
> > >
> > >"...packed with Muggles, of course..."--HAS to be one of the 
Weasleys.
Molly Weasley!
> > >
> > >Maybe not that small, Ludo"
> > >
> > >"No.....Why?"
> > >
> > >"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"
I think Flitwick.
> > 
> >




From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Apr 17 14:00:42 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:00:42 -0000
Subject: lots of Newbies
Message-ID: <9bhiaa+mnhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17005

I just saw that we have now reached over 1200 members.
When I last looked on the count about 10 days ago we were still 
somewehere around 1175 or so. That means, we can welcome a lot of 
HP-obsessed people in our nice little club.
I'm not a moderator or anything like that and am fairly new myself so 
I can't help you on details ( if you ask, you'll get all the help you 
need, though!!)
But I thought, a friendly  *Hi there* won't harm anyone. <g>

I hope to see some really interesting new opinions
Mecki




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 14:03:10 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:03:10 -0000
Subject: Godparents & religion again Re: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F111uot0OUIHNk0000a3ba@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bhieu+nun0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17006

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

> The fact that Harry has a godfather does rather seem to imply he was 
> christened - one of the extremely rare references (if you can call 
it a 
> reference) to religion in the canon.  But of course Sirius is really 
in good 
> old folklore tradition a "fairy-godfather"- Snuffles, why are you 
growling 
> like that?  Down boy!

Heheheheh.... Oh the fun slashers will have with this one....




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 17 14:07:53 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:07:53 -0500
Subject: Godparents & religion & Harry's Relatives on fathers side
References: <LAW2-F111uot0OUIHNk0000a3ba@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC4E39.266BE810@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17007

Hi --

Dumbledore has said that the Dursleys are Harry's only living
relatives.  I believe we can infer that all of the Potter relatives are
in fact deceased.  It seems implausible at first blush, but then again,
Voldy's first regime was likely harsh & targeting families like the
Potters.

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Just MHO, but it's my belief a child can have any number (within
> reason,
> obviously) of godparents, of either sex - i.e. there doesn't have to
> be a godmother for every godfather.  It is not unheard of for a child
> to have
> four or five godparents.
>
> The fact that Harry has a godfather does rather seem to imply he was
> christened - one of the extremely rare references (if you can call it
> a
> reference) to religion in the canon.

Actually, one of the Brits might pipe up, but I think godfather (or
godmother) can also be used as a non-religious term for "legal
guardian."  It can be used in that sense over here anyway.  Sirius makes
it sound as though he was definitely made Harry's legal guardian (I
don't have PoA in front of me for the exact language).  But, yes, he
might have also been christened in a religious ceremony with Sirius
serving as his "sponsor" (godfather).  There needn't be a godmother to
correspond to Sirius' godfather role.  He could be the sole sponsor.  If
there was a godmother, it's reasonably clear she's dead or Sirius would
likely have mentioned this I think.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 14:15:46 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:15:46 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <9bhcbq+nrmo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bhj6i+j7a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17008

Have you ever played the computer game "Rogue"? It is very old, one of 
the first games to use graphics, albiet very primitive asci ones.

Basically you are presented with the map of a dungeon which you must 
find your way through. Whenever a room becomes relevent (ie: there is 
gold or some creature you must battle) or if you are simply heading 
toward the room, it appears. Rooms disappear "off the side of the 
page" as you work through them. When you want to look at other rooms, 
you click in their general direction. And yes it is possible to move 
up or down a level.

I imagine the map as being somewhat like this.

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> A quibble re: the Marauder's Map, and I think that the answer which 
> will probably come back is "suspend your disbelief!"
> Is the map 3D.  I find it hard to visulise how the whole of 
Hogwarts, 
> floor by floor, tower by tower etc can be reproduced on a Map unless 
> it is three dimensional or comprises of many different plans.
> Has this been covered before or am I the only one so analy 
retentive?
> Catherine
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> > The Marauder's Map may be showing what is relevant to the area or 
> > situation. Wormtail new it did not show the inside of Hagrids hut 
> so 
> > he hid there. It insulted Snape when he tried to activate it. 
> > Interesting theory about movement, Scabbers [wormtail] was moving 
> > along with Ron when he was being dragged. 
> > 
> > Bugg -- also from Ravenclaw 
> > 
> > 
> > meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > > This definitely has come up before, and I thought that perhaps 
> the 
> > map doesn't show every corner in the castle every time one looks 
at 
> > it.  I like your theory about what is moving is shown on the map, 
> but 
> > I also think that the map doesn't always show each and every 
thing. 
> > Harry also does not look for every single person, creature or 
ghost 
> > when he uses the map!
> > --jenny from ravenclaw************************************* 
> > 
> > kel4 wrote: 
> > And on page 193, again of the US edition, it shows Harry standing 
> > next to the humpbacked witch; he's not moving. It also shows him 
> > tapping it and saying Dissendium, even though he hasn't done 
either 
> > of those things. 
> > 
> > heidit wrote: 
> > Lupin says on page 347 that he thought the map 
> was "malfunctioning" - 
> > that may be because he saw 2 harrys and 2 hermiones. Of course, 
> it's 
> > possible that they were *off map* when they were hiding on the 
edge 
> > of the forbidden forrest, as they might have been when Lupin 
looked 
> > at the map.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 14:36:24 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:36:24 -0000
Subject: Godparents & religion & Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <3ADC4E39.266BE810@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bhkd8+hoid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17009

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Actually, one of the Brits might pipe up, but I think godfather (or
> godmother) can also be used as a non-religious term for "legal
> guardian."  It can be used in that sense over here anyway.  Sirius 
makes
> it sound as though he was definitely made Harry's legal guardian (I
> don't have PoA in front of me for the exact language).  But, yes, he
> might have also been christened in a religious ceremony with Sirius
> serving as his "sponsor" (godfather).  There needn't be a godmother 
to
> correspond to Sirius' godfather role.  He could be the sole 
sponsor.  If
> there was a godmother, it's reasonably clear she's dead or Sirius 
would
> likely have mentioned this I think.
> 
> Penny

I'm a Brit, and I'm piping up!  I think that you're basically right.  
Godparents aren't legal guardians, but if they agree to be 
godparents, there is an implication that if something were to happen 
to the actual parents they would take a more active role in the 
child's upbringing - this would often mean taking on legal 
responsibility.  Without getting too nitpicky about it, it would 
normally have to be mentioned in a will etc.  For instance, my aunt 
and uncle were my godparents and had an agreement with my parents 
that they would become guardians if my parents died whilst my brother 
and I were still minors - and this was set out in my parents' will.  
So it's honourary, and can be of practical use as well, (besides the 
extra birthday/Christmas presents one expects of course).

As for the religious side, there does not have to be a Christening, 
nor any specific belief, although I think originally a godparent was 
to take the moral and spiritual development of the child seriously!  
I know one of my friends is a "special person" instead of a 
godparent, as all parties are non religious and didn't want to 
use "god."  I find this a bit on the twee side, but it more or less 
means the same thing.  So it is possible that Harry may not have been 
christened.

It is also traditional (in my family at least) for boys to have two 
godfathers and a godmother, and girls to have two godmothers and a 
godfather.  Why, I do not know - and I don't know if it's common 
practice or something peculiar to my family.

BTW Penny - I meant to post on this earlier, but I totally agreed 
with your posts on literary analysis etc.  My background is a BA in 
English Literature, and I have just finished studying law 
(officially, that is, no one ever stops studying if wanting a career 
in law), so I guess I am straddling the fence here.  However, when at 
college  I really did not enjoy the scientific approach taken by all 
the Leavisite theorists when analysing literature.  It has its place 
of course, but IMHO can be taken too far.  For me, a book has an 
appeal when it is written so subtley that a variety of 
interpretations are possible. One can look at things contextually, 
but I prefer to look at the text alone, and I enjoy the fact that 
with each reading my feelings about the books and the interpretation  
I put on certain scenes can change, either minutely or dramatically.  
I prefer to think that someone like JKR knows her characters so well 
that many of the words she uses (particularly the adverbs which seem 
to cause the most controversy) are a mixture of design, and 
subconsciously knowing what her character is feeling during a 
particular scene.  

I haven't expressed myself very well here, I'm afraid.  Apologies for 
my incoherence!
Catherine




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 14:40:22 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:40:22 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
In-Reply-To: <9bhi8g+e1q2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bhkkm+9tjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17010

Feel free to boo and hiss me for being a pain...

I'm probably closing the gate after the horse has bolted here, as 
several of you have posted responses to Caius' opening gambits quiz.  
Okay, let's face it, there are already several sleek ponies whinnying 
and snorting their way into the distance.  

>From a moderating point of view, I think we would encourage people to 
send their answers direct to Caius, so that others can have a go at 
guessing without having seen the answers.  It may be a bit late for 
that now, but it would be helpful if the ins and outs and general 
ponderings were, at least, discussed on OT Chatter rather than here.  

Whatever happens, I hope Caius will reveal the answers in due course ?
 I'm in agony already!

In the past, we ran similar quizzes (quotes, anagrams, word squares, 
crosswords and so on), in which the person who set the quiz would 
adjudicate the offlist entries and declare a winner.  The winner 
would then be expected to set another quiz and declare the winner of 
that, and so on, until it all fizzled out.  Maybe we should think of 
doing something like that again, but OT Chatter is probably the best 
place for it.

Neil

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator






From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 15:06:20 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:06:20 -0000
Subject: Ron's Jealousy of Harry; Neuroses of Ron & Hermione (Long)
In-Reply-To: <3ADBBF77.4BCA2CC7@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bhm5c+4r75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17011

Penny wrote:
> 
> Again, it's my opinion that this system of analysis is not 
necessarily
> *always* the best methodology to use in analyzing a work of 
literature.
> Hoping Ebony or someone more knowledgeable about literary theory 
will
> pipe up right about now.  It's been 13+ years since I studied 
English
> lit theory in college.  Perhaps I'm just rusty.  More on this ....

I just finished a rather grueling M.A. degree in English Lit and 
<laughs> I don't think any modern theory will add to this debate.  
Modern literary theory is very fragmented at the moment.  There are 
still "structuralist" constructors of diagrams and examiners of 
percentages of words, and there are still Derridian "authorial intent 
can never be discerned because meaning is always deferred" theorists, 
and there are always people who just do what we do: take a story we 
like and pull it to bits from every angle, and if we get any meaning 
out of it--well, getting there is half the fun.  Most theorists of 
whatever stripe are bound to agree.

At the risk of butting in, here's my two Knuts on the scene:

I don't think Hermione is being disingenuous.  Syncretic maybe.  I 
have lent out my GoF so I'm repeating the conversation from memory as 
best I can:

Harry:  "What do you mean, 'sort of'?"
"Oh Harry, don't you see?  He's jealous!"
"Jealous?  He wants to make a prat of himself in front of the whole 
school, does he?"
"Oh, but it's always you who gets all the attention, you know it is.  
I know it's not your fault," she said, seeing Harry open his mouth 
furiously, "you can't help it, but you know, Ron's got all those 
brothers to compete against at home, and you're his best friend, and 
you're really famous.  He's always shunted to one side whenever 
people see you, and he puts up with it, and he never says anything 
about it, but *I guess this was just one time too many*..."
"Great.  Really great.  Tell him from me I'd trade with him 
anytime...People gawking at my forehead wherever I go..."
"I'm not telling him anything.  Tell him yourself.  It's the only way 
to sort this out."  .... [emphasis mine]

As I see it, Hermione is going to great lengths to *defend* Ron in 
this passage, not undermine him or his friendship with Harry.  She's 
defending Ron because she knows Harry has a cause to be angry: i.e. 
Ron has just let down his friend-in-need by letting himself be 
overtaken by envy.  Hermione herself explains why, if we haven't seen 
any overt envy on Ron's part toward Harry, we can believe her when 
she says he's jealous.  This is just a rather large straw breaking 
the camel's back.  It's unfortunate that it happens at a time when 
Harry really needs Ron; but as Hermione concludes, the only way out 
of the misunderstanding is for Harry and Ron to talk to each other 
about it.  

You could argue, I suppose, that Hermione's being rather officious 
and insensitive to state such things to Harry so baldly without (I 
assume) Ron's knowledge or permission.  But given that Hermione loves 
both her friends, and given that it's her nature to tell it like it 
is, it isn't very surprising--and neither Ron nor Harry appear to get 
angry at *her* for her efforts to reconcile them.

I can imagine that in the conversations between Ron and Hermione 
which we don't hear, Hermione is pushing a defense of Harry while 
urging Ron to talk to Harry about the problem.  "The first task is no 
joke, Ron, don't you know people have *died* in this tournament?"

As for Hermione's neuroses or lack of them, I think GoF shows 
Hermione in the process of leaving behind her need of academic 
prestige: she meets Lucius Malfoy's eye knowing she's not just a 
Mudblood--and if she's not just a Mudblood, then she doesn't need to 
make up for it with stratospheric marks.  It leaves her to do what 
she's made to do--study for the joy of it and not for the driving 
fear of it.  At any rate, I am confident this will become more 
evident, and I've heard JKR say in interviews that as a recovering 
Hermione, she herself plans to give her character some fun and 
looseness.  Hermione's vicissitudes of drivenness and freedom seem 
pretty normal to me.

Lisa




From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 17 15:16:21 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:16:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010417151621.0076af40@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17012

Adding yet more...

>> > >"Good afternoon,"
>> > >
>> > >"Bad business, Hagrid,"
>> Fudge?
>> > >
>> > >"Expelliarmus!"--Sirius Black?
>> > >
>> > >"Ahoy there!"
>> > >
>> > >"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
>> Dean Thomas
>> > >
>> > >"Miss - er -?"
>> Professor Binns
>> > >
>> > >"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" -- Draco Malfoy.
>> > >
>> > >"Mom....geroff,"--Ron Weasley.
>> > >
>> > >"Has anyone seen a toad?" -- Hermione Granger.
>> > >
>> > >"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
>Karkaroff
>> > >
>> > >"No thank you Ludo"
>Crouch Sr.?
>> > >
>> > >"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he 
>deserves?"
>> Nearly Headless Nick
>> > >
>> > >"Ah, yes. Harry Potter"
>> Snape?
>> > >
>> > >"Harry Potter!"
>> > >
>> > >"It can't be Harry Potter?"
>> Was this someone in the Leaky Cauldron?
>Could it alos have been Fred or George?

I'm guessing that it is Prof. Lockhart, when he first meets Harry at the
bookshop.

>> > >"All right, Harry?"
>> > >
>> > >"Hello, Harry Potter."
>Tom Riddle, via his diary. Does his "memory" count as different from 
>the present day Voldermort?
>> > >
>> > >"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."
>Filch?
>> > >
>> > >"Are you serious, Professor?"
>> > >
>> > >"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"... Mad-Eye Moody.
>> > >
>> > >"What are you looking for, boy?"
>> > >
>> > >"Use the boy....use the boy.."
>> Voldemort, in Quirrell's head
>> > >
>> > >"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as 
>comfortable,
>> > >I am thinking"... Viktor Krum.
>> > >
>> > >"Absolutely not."
>> > >
>> > >"Thirty-six"

Dudley counting his presents.

>> > >"What a night,"--Professor McGonagall.
>> > >
>> > >"Can't stay long, mother"
>> Percy
>> > >
>> > >"Greenhouse three today, chaps!"--Professor Sprout.
>> > >
>> > >"What?"
>> > >
>> > >"Nearly,"
>> > >
>> > >"Quiet"
>> It should have an exclamation point, if it's Professor Lupin
>> > >
>> > >"Oh!"
>> > >
>> > >"A small gillywater --" Madam Rosmerta.
>> > >
>> > >"Little tyke"--either Marge or Vernon Dursley. I'm pretty sure 
>it's
>> vernon
>> > >
>> > >"What's that you're calling me?"
>> > >
>> > >"Hi"
>> > >
>> > >"...packed with Muggles, of course..."--HAS to be one of the 
>Weasleys.
>Molly Weasley!
>> > >
>> > >Maybe not that small, Ludo"

I haven't read that book for awhile, but I'm guessing that it is Mr. Malfoy,
in book three.

>> > >"No.....Why?"
>> > >
>> > >"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"
>I think Flitwick.
-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Apr 17 15:41:57 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:41:57 -0000
Subject: Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <9bfu8n+cgug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bho85+4kle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17013

Here's a whacky thought. In GoF, voldy says something likeHarry is 
protected when he is in his relatives care and that Dumbledore used 
some kind of magic on them. What if that "magic" is love?

Okay, I know what you're thinking...but think about it. If the 
Dursleys really hated Harry, they wouldn't have kept him for those 
years or drop him off and pick him up from the train station. And if 
they really hated Harry, would Uncle Vernon have gone through all 
that trouble in SS? Also, Petunia said something along the lines that 
Lily was foolish and that the magic was what got her killed. I know 
that they are interested in keeping up appearances, but still. Maybe 
in a weird way, the Dursley's efforts to squash the magic out of 
Harry was their way of showing their caring for him? I'm not saying 
that the neglect and abuse was appropriate, but maybe in their minds 
they were doing the right thing?

:-)Milz




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 15:45:49 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:45:49 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eaters international?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F125Is41gwzlAM0000aa3d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17014

lea wrote:

>Wizards do have a rather clear concept of nationality, and wizarding
>institutions (schools, ministries, Quidditch teams) all seem to be
>nationally based. So it seems to me that the DE were based in Britain,
>too. But then there is Karkaroff, and someone (I think Draco) says in
>GoF that at Durmstrang, students actually learn the Dark Arts.
>But then, Karkaroff is the only obviously foreign DE we know so far,
>isnt he?
>
>Any thoughts?
>
If Voldemort had a "today, Britain, tomorrow the world" approach, that would 
not preclude his making use of any foreign support that came his way.  The 
obvious analogy is Hitler, but I don't think there's enough information yet 
to tell.  His political agenda, such as it is, seems to consist of:
1.  Get immortality and dark powers for self.
2.  Get Harry Potter.
3.  Get Muggles.

This may be heresy, but I think V is a bit of a tiresome nuisance, more 
effective off-stage than on.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 15:55:13 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:55:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <9bho85+4kle@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010417155513.60964.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17015


--- Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> Here's a whacky thought. In GoF, voldy says something likeHarry is 
> protected when he is in his relatives care and that Dumbledore used
> some kind of magic on them. What if that "magic" is love?
> 

Highly unlikely without personality transplants.

BTW, I do hope that in Book 5 Dumbledore sends Snape to go pick up
Harry ("Can't get away from the castle right now, Severus; do be a
good chap and fetch the boy, will you?").  It would be fun to watch
the Dursleys confront someone who looks like their conception of an
evil wizard right down to the billowing black cape.

None of this small talk about plugs and batteries, for sure.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Apr 17 16:27:45 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:27:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as teacher
References: <9bhg2j+sdre@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011e01c0c75b$5a7767a0$9038acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17016

Lea wrote:

>So I think the question of Snapes teaching qualifications and
>qualities should be settled - there are none, thats all.

I disagree.  Agreed that Snape is not a nice person.  He's cruel to his
students, he bullies and terrifies them, and he certainly does not create a
positive learning atmosphere in his classroom.  However, this is not the
same as being a bad teacher.

A teacher's job is to teach -- that is, to impart knowledge to the students.
If a teacher possesses thorough knowledge of the subject he is required to
teach, and is capable of expressing that knowledge to his students in a way
that they can understand, and if as a result those students are able to
demonstrate that they have learned the skills required of them, then that
teacher is qualified.

Does Snape have a thorough knowledge of his subject?  Undoubtedly.  Is he
able to express that knowledge clearly and effectively to his students?  If
you look at his opening speech in SS, he's positively eloquent.  Do his
students learn?  Well, as others have pointed out, Hermione & Co. made a
Polyjuice potion in their second year -- no mean feat -- and even Neville
manages to get a passing grade on his Potions exams.  So obviously they are
learning *something*, regardless of whether or not they enjoy the
experience.

It is no doubt true that some of Snape's students would learn more, and
learn better, if they were not terrified of him.  Some students find that a
high-pressure, demanding atmosphere interferes with their ability to learn.
On the other hand, other students actually learn *better* in such an
atmosphere, even though they may hate it.  The history of learning is full
of examples of harsh taskmasters who drove their students to excellence.

I don't blame anybody for disliking and disapproving of Snape's teaching
methods.  I don't even blame people for disliking Snape himself -- he's
hardly gone out of his way to endear himself to the reader.  But to say that
he is not only "a bad teacher" but "no teacher at all" is, I think,
unwarranted by the evidence.

If you really want to talk about "no teacher at all", look at somebody like
Gilderoy Lockhart.  Very nice, very polite, very attractive, and liked by
many of his students (albeit for superficial reasons).  What did he actually
know about DADA?  Nothing.  What did he teach his students?  Nothing.
Whatever they learned that year was *in spite of* Lockhart rather than
because of him.  Even in his worst moments, that could never be said of
Snape.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 16:29:15 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:29:15 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hate
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1107WTWBYTkFx0000ad77@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17017

Harry does suspect that Dumbledore has stepped in to prevent Snape from 
actually failing him (presumably unjustly), so he does draw the line 
somewhere.  Having said that, I'm not surprised D gets daily owls 
complaining about his methods.  Neither Snape nor Trelawney could keep a job 
in a real school, and now a student has actually died under his care.  But 
then, wizard government seems to be rather haphazard at best, and wizards 
(including D) seem to take rather a robust view of life.  Given Fluffy, the 
giant squid and Aragog, Snape is not the worst that Hogwarts students have 
to deal with :)


>From: Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at gundamwing.org>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hate
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:50:14 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I've always wondered something...
>As Dumbledore is so fond of Harry, and seems to know everything that goes 
>on in the school, including Snape's picking on Harry, why doesn't he do 
>something about it? In my opinion, it's quite unprofessional for a teacher 
>to be so cruel to his students. Not only Harry of course, because everyone 
>seems to be treated poorly save the Slyth's. But he's especially hard on 
>Harry and his friends. Dumbledore -knows- that Snape hates Harry(as stated 
>in PS/SS, I believe), so I find myself wondering why he doesn't have a 
>little 'talk' with Snape about it. I just think it's really inappropriate. 
>As I saw a couple other list members mention, I really don't think Snape is 
>much of a -teacher- at all.
>~Echo
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Get your free mail --> http://www.gundamwing.org
>Comprehensive GW info, official info, galleries, translations,
>doujinshi, fanfics, multimedia, music and much much more!

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 16:33:14 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:33:14 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tentative solution to Marauder's Map problem
Message-ID: <LAW2-F137uQuN6tdqVv00008fb3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17018

Naama wrote:
<snip points against the "movement only" theory and reply>

>It makes sense that the map would only show people who are moving,
>because that's the information the would-be marauder needs.

On balance, I'm inclined to agree.  I might go even further and say the map 
only shows movements relevant to the immediate situation (which would also 
rule out showing Harry & Hermione time travelling), otherwise there would be 
over a thousand names on it, assuming we agree with JKR's estimate of 
student numbers at Hogwarts.
_________________________________________________________________________
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 17:08:43 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:08:43 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry a Squib?!?! (That good ol' gleam and Voldy's downfall)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F90lmRBaYFkuut0000a73c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17019

Catherine wrote:
>I really, really hate this theory about Harry's potential squibness.
<snip cri de coeur which I second>
Yes, I just can't believe that JKR will go this way with the story.  Harry's 
magical abilities represent the power of imagination and creativity in the 
world.  He stands in absolute contrast to the Dursleys who are cruel because 
they have no imagination or creativity ("MOTORBIKES DON'T FLY!") and are 
scared by anyone who has.  They are obsessed with material possessions and 
what the neighbours think because that's all they have.  Who wouldn't rather 
be Harry in his broom cupboard, than Dudley, with his two bedrooms full of 
toys?  And look at the one squib we know - a killjoy who's as cruel as he 
can get away with being.  Everyone needs a little magic in their lives.

_________________________________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 17:14:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:14:42 -0000
Subject: motorbike (was: Harry a Squib?!?! 
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F90lmRBaYFkuut0000a73c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bhtm2+f1kk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17020

> Harry's 
> magical abilities represent the power of imagination and creativity 
in the 
> world.  He stands in absolute contrast to the Dursleys who are cruel 
because 
> they have no imagination or creativity ("MOTORBIKES DON'T FLY!") 

Please, please, can Sirius come pick Harry up at 4 Privet Drive on his 
motorbike sometime?  I know a squad of Ministry workers will have to 
follow behind to do memory charms, but I so want to see Vernon's face 
when a flying motorbike lands on his roof.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 17:24:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:24:22 -0000
Subject: House elves 
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F101iF0Hr5F5ws00008053@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bhu86+d3oe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17021

Morag wrote:
> House-elves, by their own account, like work.  That doesn't mean 
they like 
> being exploited.

Right!  Exactly!  Now why couldn't I say it that concisely?

I also think it's important to sort out the "are house-elves unhappy" 
issue from the "is Hermione going about this the right way" issue.  I 
haven't heard anyone here wholeheartedly endorse Hermione's approach 
to social change--she's naive and headstrong and unintentionally 
patronizing--but every cause has its naive activists.  The cause may 
still be just, and I'm standing by this one.  Here are my two 
Sickles--sign me up!

> CoS
> "'Ah, if Harry Potter only knew!...If he knew what he means to us, 
to the 
> lowly, the enslaved, us dregs of the magical world!  Dobby remembers 
how it 
> was when He Who Must Not Be Named was at the height of his powers, 
sir!  We 
> house-elves were treated like vermin, sir!...mostly, sir, life has 
improved 
> for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be 
Named...Harry Potter 
> shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the dark 
days would 
> never end, sir..."


No need to take out the best line:  "...treated like vermin, sir!  Of 
course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir."  Every reform movement 
needs a sense of humor.  "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of 
your revolution" (Emma Goldman).

Amy Z




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 17:23:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:23:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Elf Magic / Apparating
References: <9b6k6j+2sc3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC7C24.7837655E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17022

Sorry, way late response, just catching up with the things I skipped to
answer later and forgot about.

Bugg wrote:

> Why are elves allowed to appear/disappear in and out of Hogwarts? I
> don't think Wizard magic can prevent it.
> Opinions or theories?

I had kind of thought that elf magic is inborn. All of them are magic,
they're magic the way they have big eyes and no fashion sense. Humans
have magical tendencies that can be trained, but I think elves do it
instinctively. It's a different type of magic, that does not trigger the
safeguards.

Sooo, I think any creature can use its innate powers on the grounds of
Hogwarts. A lethifold would be just as lethal. A hippogriff can fly.
House-elves can poof (or some other word besides Apparate, to avoid
confusing the issue).

This is straight off the top of my head, has anyone anything to support
this or shoot it down?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 17:32:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:32:38 -0000
Subject: Neil, don't hit! (Opening Gambits)
In-Reply-To: <9bhkkm+9tjn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bhunm+iunc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17023

I'm not posting my guesses.  I'm just noting smugly that no one has 
identified Harry's opening gambit yet.  And this Harry Fortnight, too. 
 Tsk tsk.

Amy Z




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 17:53:30 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:53:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves
Message-ID: <LAW2-F50shfHWF2RIhY0000b399@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17024

Amy wrote:
<snip positive response, for which, thanks>


>I also think it's important to sort out the "are house-elves unhappy"
>issue from the "is Hermione going about this the right way" issue.  I
>haven't heard anyone here wholeheartedly endorse Hermione's approach
>to social change--she's naive and headstrong and unintentionally
>patronizing--but every cause has its naive activists.  The cause may
>still be just, and I'm standing by this one.  Here are my two
>Sickles--sign me up!

Agree.  I love Hermione for caring about the house-elves, even if she is 
wrong (and I don't think she is).

>No need to take out the best line:  "...treated like vermin, sir!  Of
>course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir."  Every reform movement
>needs a sense of humor.  "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of
>your revolution" (Emma Goldman).
Agree with you and Emma - just wanted to focus on the wider issue :)

Sudden thought - who does the laundry?
_________________________________________________________________________
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From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 17:54:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:54:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard existance to Muggle governement?
References: <20010416180215.57391.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC8347.12142AD6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17025

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> While we're on the issue of government and wizards, why did Karkaroff
> face a British tribunal in GoF when he was bargaining for his release
> and why was he in a British prison?
>
> Granting that Lord V. had international ambitions, aren't there
> Bulgarian tribunals and prisons?

Harry didn't know all the wizards and witches in the room. It's possible
that it was sort of an international thing, or there was conspicuous
international presence at the trial of followers of a British dark
wizard. Ah, thought of it! Like the Nuremburg trials.

--Amanda, random thought generator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 18:00:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:00:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
References: <20010417111753.6887.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC84B5.4B77CB8B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17026

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> -- Denise R <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > How about one more step in this direction?  They only appear to
> > other "Marauders?"  Hence, Pettigrew, Lupin or Sirius would not
> > appear to Snape, but if Lupin had the map, he'd instantly know
> > Pettigrew or Sirius were about!
>
> In PoA, Snape went charging out the castle door to the Whomping Willow
> because he saw the Map on Lupin's desk.  If he couldn't see Sirius or
> Lupin, why did he go after H, H & R?

It's been a while since I read this. Suggestions--
1. He knew Lupin hadn't taken his potion and was not in his office, and
could be dangerous.
2. He knew what the Shack had been used for before, and it just dawned
on him that it might be in use again
3. Harry, Ron, and Hermione, irritating though they are, could be
walking into the same situation he was almost in, confronting a
full-grown werewolf.
4. He pretty clearly believed that Lupin was helping Sirius, and in
addition to saving the three kids and teaching them a bit of humility
and gratitude when he pulled their fat out of the fire, he might be able
to catch the dangerous murderer, too, *and* show Dumbledore that *he*
had been right about Lupin all along!

So I think he considered that the "troika" might be in danger from
Lupin, and followed for that main reason, with all the other added
bennies acting as extra incentive.

--Amanda, who is very attracted to the intricacies of Snape's character
but on the whole would rather party with Fred and George


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 18:15:09 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
In-Reply-To: <3ADC84B5.4B77CB8B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010417181509.83645.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17027

> > -- Denise R <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > How about one more step in this direction?  They only appear to
> > > other "Marauders?"  Hence, Pettigrew, Lupin or Sirius would not
> > > appear to Snape, but if Lupin had the map, he'd instantly know
> > > Pettigrew or Sirius were about!
> >
> > In PoA, Snape went charging out the castle door to the Whomping
> > Willow because he saw the Map on Lupin's desk.  If he 
> > couldn't see Sirius or
> > Lupin, why did he go after H, H & R?
> 
> It's been a while since I read this. Suggestions--

> 3. Harry, Ron, and Hermione, irritating though they are, could be
> walking into the same situation he was almost in, confronting a
> full-grown werewolf.
> 4. He pretty clearly believed that Lupin was helping Sirius, and in
> addition to saving the three kids and teaching them a bit of
> humility and gratitude when he pulled their fat out of the fire, he

> might be able to catch the dangerous murderer, too, *and* show 
> Dumbledore that *he*
> had been right about Lupin all along!


In other words, Sirius and Lupin would be visible on the map to
Snape.  In fact, I think he actually says he saw them on the map. 
Don't have PoA with me (it's back at the library).

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 18:26:52 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:26:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves...
References: <9bhhkp+nme3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC8AEB.129A3EE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17028

Amy Z wrote:

> Does it matter who did the binding?  The question isn't whether
> wizards are evil, but whether house-elves are treated unjustly.  And
> if they are bound by some third party to serve wizards, why don't
> wizards recognize the tragedy of that and treat them with as much
> dignity and respect as is allowed by the enchantment?  Or are wizards,
> too, enchanted so that they can't help but call house-elves "Elf!"?

Well, look at the sample. We've seen Dobby and Winky, who come from
pretty well dysfunctional families. The Malfoys don't treat other
*wizards* with dignity and respect. The Crouches had, in my opinion,
about the same amount of personal warmth happening at home that the
Malfoys probably do, dark wizards or no, and anyone who would rescue his
own son from Azkaban but make him live under an Imperius Curse for years
has some, well, issues. He does not treat his own family with dignity or
respect.

The only other sample we've met personally would be the Hogwarts
staff-elves. Who are dressed nicely, in tea towels. Who seem to love
what they do. Who accepted Dobby with all his weird ideas. Dumbledore
has been noted for his ignoring of convention and prejudice, and he
unhesitatingly agreed to pay Dobby (more than Dobby wanted, in fact, and
Dobby talked him down). Dumbledore probably also knows the insulted
reaction he'd get if he tried to pay the others. It seems to me that
Dumbledore *does* treat the Hogwarts elves with respect and dignity, and
may well have welcomed Dobby as a means to illustrate another "way of
being" to the other elves.

Thus, to focus on the limited sample of the elves belonging to families
that we already know are abusive or otherwise damaged, and to dismiss
the attitudes and behaviors of the elves at Hogwarts, is to bias your
conclusions.

That said, I'd also prefer if the elves had a bit more choice. But
again, there's sooo much we don't know about the bond. We have no idea
how other wizarding families treat their house-elves; if JKR borrowed
the familiar "shoemaker and the elves" theme with the clothes, how many
other old wizarding families are leaving out sweet milk, and that sort
of thing? We just don't know enough.

The word "Elf!", by the way, is spoken by Amos Diggory, but while it
says he spoke it sternly, there is nothing condescending or superior in
his interview with her. He's just been faced with the reappearance of
the Dark Mark, she's a suspect, and his usage of "Elf!" is commensurate
with "Madam!" or "Sir!" or "You!"

I still think we're all jumping merrily to conclusions. JKR loves,
loves, loves to throw out things we'll take hook, line, and sinker like
this. I just think that a closer look at what is really the case with
the elves that we have met is in order, rather than extrapolating whole
cultural attitudes from the tiny and rather biased sample we've seen.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 18:36:33 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:36:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
References: <20010417181509.83645.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC8D30.F457735D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17029

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> In other words, Sirius and Lupin would be visible on the map to
> Snape.  In fact, I think he actually says he saw them on the map.
> Don't have PoA with me (it's back at the library).

Found it. "Lying on your desk was a cetain map. Once glance at it told
me all I needed to know. I saw you running along the passageway and out
of sight."
(p. 358, PoA, US).

So I was giving Snape a bit too much credit. He was following Lupin, who
he could see in the portion of the passageway that was on the Hogwarts
grounds and therefore on the map. He couldn't see the troika or Sirius,
although when he got to the Whomping Willow and found the Invisibility
Cloak, he knew that Harry at least was there, too. [or maybe not; he
might not have known that the cloak was Harry's until Lupin mentioned
"James' invisibility cloak" in the Shack. Does anyone have any reference
that Snape knew about Harry's cloak before this?]

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 17 18:42:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:42:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Hate
References: <LAW2-F1107WTWBYTkFx0000ad77@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ADC8E82.F0059FEA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17030

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Harry does suspect that Dumbledore has stepped in to prevent Snape
> from actually failing him (presumably unjustly), so he does draw the
> line somewhere.  Having said that, I'm not surprised D gets daily owls
> complaining about his methods.  Neither Snape nor Trelawney could keep
> a job in a real school,

You mean a Muggle school. We have a good bit more bureaucracy than the
wizarding world yet enjoys. And I still think "life studies," i.e, how
to deal with the realities of life, is a better way to educate children
than insulating them from those realities and teaching them only ideals.
They need both.

> and now a student has actually died under his care.

No, a student has died in the Triwizard Tournament, as a result of a
totally unforeseen attack by the most powerful Dark wizard in many
years. The tournament is, in large part, outside the normal functioning
of Hogwarts as a school.

>  But then, wizard government seems to be rather haphazard at best, and
> wizards (including D) seem to take rather a robust view of life.
> Given Fluffy, the giant squid and Aragog, Snape is not the worst that
> Hogwarts students have
> to deal with :)

Except for poor Neville.  <g> And I don't think wizard government is
haphazard, so much that it is still a small enough population to be
effective on a more informal level. It is not yet to the size where,
simply to function, individuals *need* to be numbers or otherwise
impersonalized; there's still room for personality.

--Amanda, former state government employee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 17:22:46 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:22:46 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP morally questionable? Discuss...
Message-ID: <LAW2-F136o9WanR0bBn000018f0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17031

Rebecca wrote:

>1.  Is it true that "in each of the stories" evil would not be defeated
>unless Harry broke school rules and/or told lies?
>
>2.  Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct," as charged?
>
>My personal response would be "no" to both questions.

1.  I can't think that Harry broke any school rules to defeat V in GoF, 
unless you count the blatant cheating, encouraged by authority figures, 
throughout the tournament.  But that was not directly connected with V, and 
was part of the increasing moral complexity of Harry's world.

2.  Dumbledore knows what to overlook and when.  For instance, I think he 
knows perfectly well that some of the Slytherins are not joining in the 
toast to Cedric Diggory in the leaving feast, but also knows this is not the 
time for a confrontation.

My personal response to the points raised in the article is "so what?"  Show 
me a classic of children's (or any other) literature where our hero or 
heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all the decisions, strict 
adherence to rules and regulations and never, ever conceals anything and 
I'll show you a *very* dull book.

Even Little Women (one of the preachiest books ever written - and still 
actually read) contains this immortal exchange:
Amy: I hate unladylike behaviour.
Jo: And I hate affected, niminy-piminy chits!
Way to go, Jo.

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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 17 19:24:02 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:24:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Toasting Cedric
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D53@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17032


Morag Traynor wrote
> 2.  Dumbledore knows what to overlook and when.  For 
> instance, I think he 
> knows perfectly well that some of the Slytherins are not 
> joining in the 
> toast to Cedric Diggory in the leaving feast, but also knows 
> this is not the 
> time for a confrontation.
Canon says that everyone did stand when Dumbledore toasted Diggory, even the
slytherins. What some of the slytherins did *not* do was toast Harry. 

> 
> My personal response to the points raised in the article is 
> "so what?"  Show 
> me a classic of children's (or any other) literature where 
> our hero or 
> heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all the decisions, strict 
> adherence to rules and regulations and never, ever conceals 
> anything and 
> I'll show you a *very* dull book.
Now I'm verging offtopic, and if anyone wants to discuss Children's Books
>From The Mid 1900's, please join me on HP-OT-Chatter...I've been rereading
old Bobbsey Twins books recently, and oh my goodness, those children in the
first round of books (I believe they are vintage 1900, and a description can
be found at http://pw2.netcom.com/~drmike99/bobbsey.html) trusted the adults
to make all the decisions, but even the good kids - Nan and Bert, the older
twins, especially, didn't have strict adherence to the rules if asking to go
outside the bounds was beneficial (plus, they were really racist, but it was
1900, so what can you do?). And compared to most any book published these
days, they really were *very* dull books. 

> 
> Even Little Women (one of the preachiest books ever written - 
> and still 
> actually read) contains this immortal exchange:
> Amy: I hate unladylike behaviour.
> Jo: And I hate affected, niminy-piminy chits!
> Way to go, Jo.

And I still want to learn where I can order pickled limes on the internet!



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 19:37:53 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP morally questionable? Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F136o9WanR0bBn000018f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010417193753.12374.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17033

> My personal response to the points raised in the article is "so
> what?"  Show me a classic of children's (or any other) literature 
> where our hero or heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all 
> the decisions, strict adherence to rules and regulations and never,

> ever conceals anything and 
> I'll show you a *very* dull book.


I wonder what the moral types think of books like Tom Sawyer.

Everybody knows that kids break rules and lie to adults occasionally.
 Only those who think acknowledge is encouragement have a problem
with this.

__________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 20:16:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:16:23 -0000
Subject: House Elves...
In-Reply-To: <3ADC8AEB.129A3EE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bi8an+g07m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17034

Amanda wrote:

> Well, look at the sample. We've seen Dobby and Winky, who come from
> pretty well dysfunctional families. <snip>

> The only other sample we've met personally would be the Hogwarts
> staff-elves. <snip>

Very true.  We are probably seeing the worst and the best of house-
elf life with this sample, and not much in between.  

I don't agree, though, that Dobby only wants to split because he's 
ashamed of working for dark wizards.  He wants to split because 
they're nasty horrible people who treat him like vermin...and he 
=can't.=  However it came about, that's an unjust state of affairs, 
and I can't believe that JKR is saying "don't worry about it."
 
> The word "Elf!", by the way, is spoken by Amos Diggory, but while it
> says he spoke it sternly, there is nothing condescending or 
superior in
> his interview with her. He's just been faced with the reappearance 
of
> the Dark Mark, she's a suspect, and his usage of "Elf!" is 
commensurate
> with "Madam!" or "Sir!" or "You!"

Darn it, Amanda, no getting specific when I don't have GF!  I will 
have to summon my evidence when it arrives (supposedly in a few 
days).  But on my memory I just can't agree with this.  The 
equivalent to "Madam!" would be "Madam!," and it's a fairly polite 
way to address someone, so why doesn't he address her that 
way?  "You!" is pretty rude, and that's about what "Elf!" sounds like 
to me.

Remember, this is a man who works for the Dept. for the Regulation 
and Control of Magical Creatures.  This is the kind of treatment 
elves can expect whenever they deal with the MOM?  I know he's under 
stress at the moment, what with the Dark Mark and all, but yeesh.  If 
people in that department treat werewolves that way, they're going to 
have me to answer to.

There are lots of things in the books that we can't draw hard and 
fast conclusions about, and house-elf status is one of them, but it's 
as well-established, IMO, as, say, Ron Likes Hermione.  On the face 
of it, and until we learn something that turns our perceptions upside 
down, the treatment of house-elves is a blot on the wizarding world.  
JMHO.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 20:20:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:20:18 -0000
Subject: Snape knew about Cloak?
In-Reply-To: <3ADC8D30.F457735D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bi8i2+rvbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17035

Amanda wrote:

He couldn't see the troika or Sirius,
> although when he got to the Whomping Willow and found the 
Invisibility
> Cloak, he knew that Harry at least was there, too. [or maybe not; he
> might not have known that the cloak was Harry's until Lupin 
mentioned
> "James' invisibility cloak" in the Shack. Does anyone have any 
reference
> that Snape knew about Harry's cloak before this?]

He probably deduced that he has one, since his head showed up in 
Hogsmeade some weeks earlier.  When he found it by the tree that 
would most likely clinch it that a) Harry had an invisibility cloak 
and b) Harry was nearby.

I wonder if he knew about the cloak, or suspected James had one, back 
in his own school days.

Amy Z




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 20:31:56 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:31:56 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
Message-ID: <9bi97s+m3kq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17036

Can anyone please help??
My dear other half has been
re-reading PoA and has come up
against a major problem which may be
spoiling his enjoyment of it :(
Namely, the Dementors (no, not their
existence, that's upsetting him,
that's pretty universal...) - why do
they affect Harry so badly that he
passes out every time they come near?
They upset and frighten everyone, but
it's only Harry who is so disturbed.
I'm sure that this must have been
discussed in the past but I couldn't
find anything in the search and my
crappy TV email makes searching v.
difficult - so if anyone can point me
to the past posts,   I'd be v
grateful...




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 20:40:05 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:40:05 -0000
Subject: Snape's Hate
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F1107WTWBYTkFx0000ad77@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bi9n5+b665@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17037

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Harry does suspect that Dumbledore has stepped in to prevent Snape 
from 
> actually failing him (presumably unjustly), so he does draw the line 
> somewhere.  Having said that, I'm not surprised D gets daily owls 
> complaining about his methods.  Neither Snape nor Trelawney could 
keep a job 
> in a real school, and now a student has actually died under his 
care.  But 
> then, wizard government seems to be rather haphazard at best, and 
wizards 
> (including D) seem to take rather a robust view of life.  Given 
Fluffy, the 
> giant squid and Aragog, Snape is not the worst that Hogwarts 
students have 
> to deal with :)
> 

I agree that Snape is not the worst the students have to deal with.  
In fact, I think they learn quite a lot from him, mean and nasty as he 
is (and ugly, too as I picture him).  

Would he teach in the real world?  Unfortunately, I think he'd be 
tenured.  I teach in a public high school in the Bronx and I work with 
some of the worst teachers I've ever seen - and they've been around 
for quite a while.  Teachers can be mean, unfair, even stupid, and 
still get jobs.  Snape sucks but he has taught Harry and friends a 
thing or two about potions - I feel that I know a bit now, too!  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks having Snape as a colleague might 
actually be a refreshing change... *************




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 17 20:46:35 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:46:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bi97s+m3kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010417204635.6756.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17038

--- booleanfox at yahoo.com wrote:
> Can anyone please help??
> My dear other half has been
> re-reading PoA and has come up
> against a major problem which may be
> spoiling his enjoyment of it :(
> Namely, the Dementors (no, not their
> existence, that's upsetting him,
> that's pretty universal...) - why do
> they affect Harry so badly that he
> passes out every time they come near?
> They upset and frighten everyone, but
> it's only Harry who is so disturbed.
> I'm sure that this must have been
> discussed in the past but I couldn't
> find anything in the search and my
> crappy TV email makes searching v.
> difficult - so if anyone can point me
> to the past posts,   I'd be v
> grateful...

Lupin explains that only Harry has true horrors in his
past, namely facing Voldemort and having his parents
murdered.  "The horrors in your past are enough to
make anyone pass out" (paraphrased from Lupin)



Andrea 


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Apr 17 20:55:16 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:55:16 -0700
Subject: Louisa May Alcott at Hogwarts (was: [HPforGrownups]Toasting Cedric)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D53@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125708.00c3af00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17039

At 03:24 PM 4/17/01 -0400, Tandy, Heidi wrote:
> > Even Little Women (one of the preachiest books ever written -

Except for _Little Men_ and _Jo's Boys_, of course. ;)

> > and still
> > actually read) contains this immortal exchange...

Then there's _Little Men_, in which the boys are basically good and
sedate, but even they exhibit occassional fits of anarchy, especially
Dan, who Jo realizes will only rebel further if she restrains him too far.
Indeed, Jo takes pride in the fact that Plumfield's rules are "few and
simple", a concept that would probably scandalize Filch.

If Louisa May Alcott's characters were non-Muggles:

Meg: Keeps a serene and Weasley-like household, but upholds
              the status-quo and opposes the election of Witches
              to the MoM.

Amy: Owns several house-elves and is good friends
             with the Malfoys (not because she agrees with their views,
              but because of their exalted family connections).

Jo: Authored numerous wizard books, most notably, the "Stop the
       Outrageous Abuse of Our Fellow Magical Creatures and Campaign for
       a Change in Their Legal Status" manifesto, as well as running Plumfield
       Primary for Wizards Under Eleven with Professor Bhaer.

Beth:  Didn't die (thanks St. Mungo's Magical Remedies),
            and runs a sanctuary for homeless kneazles.

Laurie: Married to Beth and champions aid to impoverished
               young wizards and witches.

Franz: Married to Celestina Warbeck (whom he
              accompanies on the flute) and is mayor of Hogsmeade.

Emil:  Has recently become the First Wizard on Jupiter's
           moon Europa.

Nat: Plays violin for Celestina Warbeck and authored the book,
          "Ninety-Eight-Pound Weaklings Can Be Great and
           Powerful Wizards Too"  (which has a prominent
           position on Harry's bookshelf).

Dan: Authored the definitive work on "Magical Insects and
           Arachnids -- Their Care and Use in Sorcery" and
           plays Beater for the Windbourne Wasps.

Nan: Is President of St. Mungo's Hospital.

Demi: Teaches Magical Machnery at Hogwarts.

Daisy: Runs a quaint and quiet (because it's strangely empty
             usually) gourmet restaurant with Hagrid in Hogsmeade
            (Scorched Treacle Tarts and sour Cockroach Custard
              Juice the specialties).

Stuffy: Daisy and Hagrid's only regular customer.




                                                 -- Dave




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 20:59:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:59:01 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <20010417204635.6756.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9biaql+ldt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17040

Andrea wrote:

> Lupin explains that only Harry has true horrors in his
> past, namely facing Voldemort and having his parents
> murdered.  "The horrors in your past are enough to
> make anyone pass out" (paraphrased from Lupin)

But, booleanfox, don't tell your husband that unless he's gotten to 
the chapter where Harry realizes it's his mum he's hearing.  Or 
better yet, to the chapter where Lupin says the above.  Just tell him 
that All Will Be Explained.

Did you remember this and just didn't find it convincing?  Or had you 
forgotten?

A common theory is that Ginny looked "almost as bad as [Harry] felt" 
because she, too, was reliving a particularly horrible, and in her 
case, quite recent, experience:  being enchanted, coerced into 
various nasty things, kidnapped, and drained of strength almost to 
the point of death just a few months earlier.

I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?  
Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who subjects 
himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?

Amy Z





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Apr 17 21:18:45 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:18:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9biaql+ldt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bibvl+nhnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17041

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?  
> Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who 
subjects 
> himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?
> 
> Amy Z

IIRC, Ron said it felt like the Dementors were draining the happiness 
out of the place. Neville didn't seem to be as affected as Ginny. 

BTW, does anyone remember what Lupin's patronus was? 

:-)Milz




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 17 21:55:27 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:55:27 -0000
Subject: Teachers - Godparents/Relatives - Religion
Message-ID: <9bie4f+ftla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17042

Hello!

Just thought I'd throw my 2 Knuts into the melting pot with reference 
to some ideas I've read in the past hour. I know I've been a member 
for a while, but I haven't yet got the hang of replying to multiple 
posts in one, so if you see something here that's your idea, please 
take the credit for it as it won't be mentioned, sorry :). If that 
made any sense to anyone, then I know we're dealing with genii 
(geniuses? Don't do Latin).

Teachers: Lots of people have said Snape is a bad teacher, Snape 
isn't a teacher, Snape is a good teacher...I must first state that at 
the most basic meaning of the word, Snape *is* a teacher. He teaches 
people, therefore he is a teacher. We may not like or agree with his 
style but he gets the job done (Polyjuice Potion though mentioned 
numerous times is undoubtedly the best example). Something I don't 
think anyone has pointed out yet (sorry if you have!) is that 
students react differently to their teachers as they move up through 
school. When I was 11, I was scared of all my teachers and barely 
spoke to them, now, 5 years on, I am less worried about speaking my 
mind to teachers. In fact, we have some pretty good debates in our 
English class and our teacher is one annoying man! But I am rapidly 
running off on a tangent. Getting back on track and tying in with the 
Harry's pov thing, is it possible that his relationship with the 
teachers will change in the next 3 years? I think this is probable, 
in which case our perceptions of them will also change. The exception 
to this is going to be Snape, if Harry views him in a different 
light, it will be because of events at the end of GoF etc. rather 
than a developing relationship with the Potions Master. I don't think 
anyone has been through this sort of thing with Snape, he keeps 
himself very much to himself, methinks.

Godparents: The religious perspective to this (Catholic perspective 
anyway, not sure about others) is that the Godparents will continue 
to educate the child in matters concerning religion should anything 
happen to the parents. Sometimes they agree to take full 
responsibility for the children but this is not always the case. 
Godparents also support the parents. I don't know about the number of 
Godparents, I have two, one of each sex. Some of my friends have only 
one, some have four or five. I'm not sure if this is relevant though. 
I wonder if we delve a little too deeply into matters sometimes. Not 
wanting to get anyone's back up (*please* don't be offended) but this 
book is primarily aimed at children and Godparent is a word most of 
us are familiar with as someone similar to a guardian. I personally 
feel that this is quite a nifty plot device; Sirius is a nice father 
figure for Harry to look up to and discuss things with. Mr Weasley 
could have been used, but it would be difficult to discuss friendship 
matters with the friend's dad. I think he will still be influential 
to Harry though, as he is a very good man. 

Relatives: If James Potter was an only child, Harry would have few 
relatives on his father's side (this has been said before, I know) 
unless we look into cousins, second cousins etc. I think perhaps the 
Dursleys are Harry's *closest* relatives (in blood-ties not terms of 
distance I mean!) and they have the added bonus of living close to 
Mrs Figg which provides protection.

Religion: I'm not at all sure how this would fit in as in my mind, 
firm followers of faiths would stick to their religion. I know there 
is a tendency to *dabble* in different religions today, but I don't 
really see where witches and wizards fit in any religion I have 
studied so far. IMHO, I don't think religion is involved, it is 
possible to live by morals rather than religion and I think the 
good/evil message fits into any faith and gives a more universal 
appeal to the books (as if they need it!).

I hope I didn't offend anyone in my rambling post which is I think 
twice the length of anything I have written before. These are just a 
few thoughts, not fully formed opinions and I am very happy for other 
people to disagree with/add something to them. I think it makes 
sense, sorry if it doesn't, my mind is a little full of Literature 
revision today! I have edited a few times, sorry if I missed out any 
mistakes :).

Sarah, stepping tentatively back into the shadows for a while.




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Apr 17 22:12:12 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:12:12 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bibvl+nhnt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bif3s+ppdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17043

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:

> BTW, does anyone remember what Lupin's patronus was? 
> 
> :-)Milz


It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing mentioned 
is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about 
what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.


Kristin




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Tue Apr 17 22:58:59 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 22:58:59 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <011e01c0c75b$5a7767a0$9038acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9bihrl+muln@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17044

Lea wrote:

>>"Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
(Some excellent thoughts, but I will confine this reply to the actual 
question of Snape?s teaching methods)

> >> But we all learned with amazing efficacy. Being a "mean" teacher 
> doesn't necessarily equate to being a "bad" teacher.<<
> >>I think this is so true of Snape--admittedly, it's not the right 
> approach for Neville. We teach the way we learn. When I turn 
> around to teach someone that same process, I'm going to start by 
> teaching it using the preferred style I used to learn it. Assuming 
> Snape was an above average student, one who cottoned on pretty 
> quickly and didn't need a lot of minute direction, he's going to 
> teach that way, and assume that anyone who can't do it like that is 
> a "dunderhead." <<

Yes... only, I didn't write those particular snippets! :) I can't 
remember exactly what I said, come to think of it, but I believe I 
also replied to the above post which you so kindly (but mistakenly) 
attributed to me. :)

Lea writes more:

<big huge hunking snip>

>>So I think the question of Snape?s teaching qualifications and 
qualities should be settled - there are none, that?s all.<<

And Rebecca replied:

>>I disagree.  Agreed that Snape is not a nice person.  He's cruel to 
his students, he bullies and terrifies them, and he certainly does 
not create a positive learning atmosphere in his classroom.  However, 
this is not the same as being a bad teacher. A teacher's job is to 
teach -- that is, to impart knowledge to the students. If a teacher 
possesses thorough knowledge of the subject he is required to teach, 
and is capable of expressing that knowledge to his students in a way 
that they can understand, and if as a result those students are able 
to demonstrate that they have learned the skills required of them, 
then that teacher is qualified.<<

I'm afraid I must completely side with Rebecca here. I think Snape, 
as simply a teacher, is probably one of Hogwarts' best. He knows the 
information, and he delivers it to the students efficiently, for the 
most part. He doesn't view his job as "professor" to also 
include "mentor, role model, and best friend"; he just teaches the 
material. If a kid "gets it", OK, great, move on. If a kid 
doesn't "get it", too bad, you fail, move on. He doesn't easily 
tolerate people goofing off; the classroom for Snape is simply a 
place to receive and use knowledge, and he is the bearer of that 
knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. 

>> Does Snape have a thorough knowledge of his subject?  
Undoubtedly.  Is he able to express that knowledge clearly and 
effectively to his students?  If you look at his opening speech in 
SS, he's positively eloquent.  Do his students learn?  Well, as 
others have pointed out, Hermione & Co. made a Polyjuice potion in 
their second year -- no mean feat -- and even Neville manages to get 
a passing grade on his Potions exams.  So obviously they are learning 
*something*, regardless of whether or not they enjoy the experience.<<

Exactly. Obviously, he does know what he's doing. Does he enjoy it? 
That could only be truly answered if JKR gave us a chapter in Snape's 
POV; I personally think he does enjoy some aspects of the job; i.e., 
the authority he has, and the fact that he has the ability to mold 
these "idle" teenagers into powerful witches and wizards. That 
doesn't necessarily mean he likes the kids (I don't believe he really 
likes young people in general), but I think he probably has some 
satisfaction in transferring his vast knowledge to them.

More from Rebecca:

>>It is no doubt true that some of Snape's students would learn more, 
and learn better, if they were not terrified of him.  Some students 
find that a high-pressure, demanding atmosphere interferes with their 
ability to learn. On the other hand, other students actually learn 
*better* in such an atmosphere, even though they may hate it.  The 
history of learning is full of examples of harsh taskmasters who 
drove their students to excellence.<<

It is not Snape's style to give that warm, fuzzy, "everyone's a 
winner" atmosphere in the classroom. Some children fail, some do only 
all right, others excel. Snape has no time (nor interest) to be the 
loving, caring teacher for all the Nevilles in his classes. He's 
harsh, because he 1) doesn't suffer fools well 2) doesn't believe in 
all that mushy-mentor stuff. (Remember, this is a man who would 
appear to distances himself emotionally from others. Especially 
students, I would think.) It seems that Snape views the best way to 
teach as drilling the information into students, and making them work 
for their grades. For Snape, this teaching method also 
includes "waspish remarks" that, yes, might could be done away with, 
but, IMO, is just another way of his maintaining order and authority, 
and of getting his point across to the "dunderheads". 

Ever seen the movie "Stand and Deliver"? Escalante is kind of a cross 
between Snape and Lupin, no? He makes those kids work, he doesn't let 
them off easy, and he often makes quiet but rather "waspish" remarks, 
like Snape. However, he also rewards and encourages them, like Lupin.

Even more from Rebecca:

>>If you really want to talk about "no teacher at all", look at 
somebody like Gilderoy Lockhart.  Very nice, very polite, very 
attractive, and liked by many of his students (albeit for superficial 
reasons).  What did he actually know about DADA?  Nothing.  What did 
he teach his students?  Nothing. Whatever they learned that year was 
*in spite of* Lockhart rather than because of him.  Even in his worst 
moments, that could never be said of Snape.<<

Yup. Gilderoy says it all himself:

"Am I a professor?" said Lockhart in mild surprise. "Goodness, I 
expect I was hopeless, was I?" (pg. 331, American ed.)

And hopeless he was indeed. Snape muses on how behind the students 
are in DADA when he substitutes for Lupin in PoA; teachers like 
Lockhart are the reason they are not "up to speed" in the class. But 
in Snape's class, they advance quite well. Because Snape is *never* 
hopeless; he's an effective teacher, even if he might not give a damn 
about the kids' emotional welfare or happiness in his class. At least 
they're learning the stuff they're supposed to know.

Lyda




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 23:19:29 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:19:29 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledor/government/population size (was Snape's Hate)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1152TUSzbAUfK0000986d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17045

Amanda wrote:

>Morag Traynor wrote:
>
> > Harry does suspect that Dumbledore has stepped in to prevent Snape
> > from actually failing him (presumably unjustly), so he does draw the
> > line somewhere.  Having said that, I'm not surprised D gets daily owls
> > complaining about his methods.  Neither Snape nor Trelawney could keep
> > a job in a real school,
>
>You mean a Muggle school. We have a good bit more bureaucracy than the
>wizarding world yet enjoys. And I still think "life studies," i.e, how
>to deal with the realities of life, is a better way to educate children
>than insulating them from those realities and teaching them only ideals.
>They need both.

Yeah, OK, a Muggle school! :)  I think reality pretty much gets thrown in, 
whatever the ethos of the school.  I'm not taking the whole thing *too* 
seriously, and I adore Dumbledore (now there's a bumper sticker!) but, if I 
were a Hogwarts parent, I might think he was the tiniest bit too "hands 
off".  As a reader, I think he's just right.
>
> > and now a student has actually died under his care.
>
>No, a student has died in the Triwizard Tournament, as a result of a
>totally unforeseen attack by the most powerful Dark wizard in many
>years. The tournament is, in large part, outside the normal functioning
>of Hogwarts as a school.

Well, I was kind of expecting this point to be made *bg*, but, having 
unwittingly employed Crouch jr, he must take some responsibility.  There's a 
difference between holding someone responsible and blaming them.  Perhaps 
the MoM should have taken security more seriously and given him some back up 
(not that I'd expect them to be very useful!).
>
> >  But then, wizard government seems to be rather haphazard at best, and
> > wizards (including D) seem to take rather a robust view of life.
> > Given Fluffy, the giant squid and Aragog, Snape is not the worst that
> > Hogwarts students have
> > to deal with :)
>
>Except for poor Neville.  <g> And I don't think wizard government is
>haphazard, so much that it is still a small enough population to be
>effective on a more informal level. It is not yet to the size where,
>simply to function, individuals *need* to be numbers or otherwise
>impersonalized; there's still room for personality.
>
>--Amanda, former state government employee
Ah, you know whereof you speak *bg*!
Excellent point.  I think that's the charm of it.  Interesting you say it's 
not *yet* to that size - my impression is the wizarding community is either 
static or declining.  Doesn't Ron say wizards would have died out if they 
hadn't married Muggles?  And the fact that they seem to be in widely 
scattered enclaves (Knockturn Alley in London, Hogsmeade in Scotland, the 
Weasleys have no very near wizarding neighbours etc) gives me the impression 
they are fewer now than they once were.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Tue Apr 17 23:42:54 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:42:54 -0400
Subject: Werewolves and Animagi
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010417194254.0077b294@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17046


I suddenly recalled that, in PoA, Sirius tackles Lupin's werewolf form and
they were locked "jaw to jaw". As a result of that encounter, Sirius comes
away with "gashes on his muzzle". Does a werewolf bite have no effect on a
human then, if that human has transfigured into an animal form? The
transfiguration process doesn't seem to be complete, as would be the case
in Lupin's werewolf transformation, as animagi retain their human mental
capacities.

Another thought about Lupin: the use of 'Lupin' as a last name is quite
fitting, but now I'm wondering ... is this a name he came up for himself
after he was bitten by a werewolf, or was his family name really 'Lupin',
and the fact that he became a werewolf was just a big coincidence? If not,
maybe he has a real name that could be significant. On the other hand, I'm
probably just nitpicking, because Lupin probably wouldn't want to
unnecessarily clue people in on the fact that he's a werewolf.

Samaporn


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les
yeux." - le renard, "Le Petit Prince"

"Knowing others is wisdom;
 Knowing the self is enlightenment.
 Mastering others requires force;
 Mastering the self needs strength."  - Lao Tzu, "Tao te Ching"




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 00:30:26 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:30:26 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers - Godparents/Relatives - Religion
Message-ID: <LAW2-F84QYx3G5aYY610000bc1e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17047

Hi Sarah! *bg*
Sarah wrote:
<Snip lots of good points about teachers and godparents>
>I wonder if we delve a little too deeply into matters sometimes.
You think? ;)

Morag, who is not offended and likes a laugh.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 18 01:12:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:12:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion in HP
References: <20010416224845.2091.qmail@web514.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADCE9E8.CBDC8B13@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17048

Seattle de Taeloure wrote:

> I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
> was wondering about Wizard religion.  Aside from the
> armor singing "O Come All Ye Faithful" I also wondered
> about St. Mungo's Hospital.

<snip>

> Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
> has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
> yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
> example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
> witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
> religions?

I suspect they do. I think we don't see much of that level of religious
observance for much the same reasons we have not (thus far) seen much of
a sexual nature. JRK is dealing with basics--good and evil and choices
and consequences. I think bothering with the wrapping they come in would
be distracting from the story, just as sexual orientation, while an
issue worth addressing in general, doesn't really seem to have a place
in the books yet. At the moment, the broad themes of love, friendship,
loyalty, and betrayal are the fodder, and again, fooling with the
"wrapping" these come in would be distracting.

Just my fevered opinion,

--Amanda, currently at 101.5, loitering upstairs waiting for the
bedded-down kids to quiet down, and really, *really* wishing Jan would
get home and do the rest of the house cleanup and lunch making for her
[Penny, be warned. Mom's can't get sick. Even when they get sick, they
can't get sick. Sigh.]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 03:55:14 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 03:55:14 -0000
Subject: Werewolves and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010417194254.0077b294@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9bj372+jo8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17049

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> 
wrote:

> Another thought about Lupin: the use of 'Lupin' as a last name is 
> quite fitting, but now I'm wondering ... is this a name he came up 
> for himself after he was bitten by a werewolf, or was his family 
> name really 'Lupin', and the fact that he became a werewolf was 
> just a big coincidence? If not,maybe he has a real name that could 
> be significant. On the other hand, I'm probably just nitpicking, 
> because Lupin probably wouldn't want to unnecessarily clue people 
> in on the fact that he's a werewolf.
> 
> Samaporn


I think it's just a coincidence that his last name happens to be 
Lupin. Afterall there are flowers in Britian called Lupins so that's 
where the family name could have come from. Besides if he changed his 
name I don't think he would have picked a name that's in any way 
associated with a wolf.


Cheers,
         Kristin




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 18 04:57:20 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:57:20 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bif3s+ppdm@eGroups.com>
References: <9bibvl+nhnt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417214836.02fe9f00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17050

At 10:12 PM 4/17/01 +0000, Kristin wrote:
>It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing mentioned
>is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about
>what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.

It seems to me a wolf would be the last thing that his Patronus
would be.  Right now, I'm kind of imagining that his Patronus
is a ribbon of firey light resembling Saturn's rings, because it seems
to me that the day of liberation for werewolves will be the day the
moon ventures too close to Earth and disintegrates, like the
moon(s) that became Saturn's rings.

What about Sirius?  I like to imagine his is a mermaid, because
that's what I think mine would be.

I have no idea what Dumbledore's is ( Socks?? :) )...



                                                 -- Dave




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Apr 18 05:06:17 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:06:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
References: <9bgir1+h3i4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADD20C9.9F11D2E@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17051



Kristin wrote:

>
> As for the Dursleys:  Maybe Petunia was Lily's only living relative
> so Dumbledore had no choice but to leave Harry with her and Vernon.
> Then there is also the barriers that Dumbledore mentioned in GoF. One
> of the barriers probably has to do with the Dursley's.

A thought on this...what is the protection that the Dursleys offer. Perhaps they offer the protection that only Muggles can do? Ignorance of the magic world?

Bright Blessings,

Jamieson
--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Apr 18 05:13:37 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:13:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
References: <9bif3s+ppdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADD2281.14FDC22D@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17052



Kristin wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
>
> > BTW, does anyone remember what Lupin's patronus was?
> >
> > :-)Milz
>
> It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing mentioned
> is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about
> what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.

Actually, from what I remember, it's a moon.

from PoA, page 253
"...He'll be delighted", he said cooly.  "He set that essay hoping someone would realise what my symptoms meant. Did you chek the lunar chart and realise that I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you realise that the Boggart changed into
the moon when it saw me."

Just thought I'd point that out...

Bright Blessings
Jamieson
--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 06:00:50 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:00:50 -0000
Subject: Elf Magic / Apparating
In-Reply-To: <3ADC7C24.7837655E@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bjaii+oamj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17053

Thanks Amanda.  
Instinctive magic? Interesting theory: Elf powers are 
innate and 'poofing' is not restricted as apparating is. 
The spell that prevents apparating could treat 'poofing' 
as any spell or natural trait and not as apparating. 

I still wonder if wizard magic could stop it. 

Bugg -- Ravenclaw 


--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I had kind of thought that elf magic is inborn. All of 
them are magic, they're magic the way they have big eyes 
and no fashion sense. Humans have magical tendencies that 
can be trained, but I think elves do it instinctively. 
It's a different type of magic, that does not trigger the 
safeguards.
> 
> Sooo, I think any creature can use its innate powers on 
the grounds of Hogwarts. A lethifold would be just as lethal. 
A hippogriff can fly. House-elves can poof (or some other 
word besides Apparate, to avoid confusing the issue).
> 
> This is straight off the top of my head, has anyone anything 
to support this or shoot it down?
> 
> --Amanda

> I Origionally Wrote:
Why are elves allowed to appear/disappear in and out of 
Hogwarts? I don't think Wizard magic can prevent it.
Opinions or theories?






From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 06:13:09 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:13:09 -0000
Subject: Protection 
Message-ID: <9bjb9l+dsa5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17054

My last post on Elf magic and apparating revealed 
this possibility. Dumbledore may have put the same 
anti-apparating protection on the Dursley's house. 
LV and his DEs would not be able to pop in. Dumbledore 
and Minerva approached the house from down the street. 
Hagrid and baby Harry by motorcycle. Dobby would not 
be affected by it [see last post]. 

What other protection could there be? 

1. A. Figg 
2. Anti-apparating spell 
3. ? 

Bugg -- Ravenclaw 

http://www.geocities.com/bugganeer/ravenclaw 






From anguis_1 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 07:11:04 2001
From: anguis_1 at yahoo.com (anguis_1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:11:04 -0000
Subject: Religion in HP
In-Reply-To: <3ADCE9E8.CBDC8B13@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bjem8+bn57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17055

> Seattle de Taeloure wrote:
> 
> > I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
> > was wondering about Wizard religion.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
> > has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
> > yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
> > example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
> > witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
> > religions?

Right now, I don't think we're in a position to really know.  So far, 
our perspective is mostly from inside Hogwarts.  If wizarding
religion 
were to be somewhat parallel to "Muggle" religion, Hogwarts would be
a 
school for families who aren't too serious about religion.  First of 
all, it's not associated with a particular religion (e.g. has weekly 
services, a pastor/priest/etc., religion classes).  Secondly, the 
children have no access to regular religious services.  First and 
Second Years can't leave the school at all, and Hogsmeade visits are 
irregular for the older students.  Many religions (although not all), 
encourage regular attendance at some sort of community worship.  A 
family that is serious about their religion would probably not send 
their child to a place where he would not be able to fully practice
his 
religion.
Anyway, (I think) my point was that Hogwarts students probably don't 
have very strong religious backgrounds, so we can't base our
judgement 
of the existence of wizarding religion on its absence from HP.
Also, does anyone know if JKR professes to be a practicing member of
a  
particular religion?  If she doesn't, it would be natural for her to 
not include religion as a facet of daily life.
[I apologize for the incoherent ramble, but I've been doing my
calculus 
homework and my logic has taken a vacation.]





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 18 07:33:15 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:33:15 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <3ADD2281.14FDC22D@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9bjfvr+juap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Kristin wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> >
> > > BTW, does anyone remember what Lupin's patronus was?
> > >
> > > :-)Milz
> >
> > It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing 
mentioned
> > is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about
> > what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.
> 
> Actually, from what I remember, it's a moon.
> 
> from PoA, page 253
> "...He'll be delighted", he said cooly.  "He set that essay hoping 
someone would realise what my symptoms meant. Did you chek the lunar 
chart and realise that I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you 
realise that the Boggart changed into
> the moon when it saw me."
> 
> Just thought I'd point that out...
> 
> Bright Blessings
> Jamieson

IIRC, it wasn't his patronus that was a moon, but the thing he was 
most scared of, which the boggart turned into was the moon.  So it is 
highly unlikely his patronus was something he feared the most.  Ditto 
with the idea that his patronus would be a wolf - he also dreads 
turning into a wolf every month.

Catherine
> "Many that live deserve death.
> And some that die deserve life.
> Can you give it to them? Then
> do not be too eager to deal out death
> in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
> of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)
> 
> --
> 
> Transported to a surreal landscape,
> a young girl kills the first woman she
> meets and thenteams up with three complete
> strangers to kill again. - Marin County
> newspaper's TV listing for
> The Wizard of Oz




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 18 07:34:57 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:34:57 -0000
Subject: Protection
In-Reply-To: <9bjb9l+dsa5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bjg31+u18m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17057

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> My last post on Elf magic and apparating revealed 
> this possibility. Dumbledore may have put the same 
> anti-apparating protection on the Dursley's house. 
> LV and his DEs would not be able to pop in. Dumbledore 
> and Minerva approached the house from down the street. 
> Hagrid and baby Harry by motorcycle. Dobby would not 
> be affected by it [see last post]. 
> 
> What other protection could there be? 
> 
> 1. A. Figg 
> 2. Anti-apparating spell 
> 3. ? 
> 
> Bugg -- Ravenclaw 

I don't know whether it could be an anti-apparating spell.  We know 
that Arthur Weasley could DIS apparate from the house.  Does it 
follow, therefore, that people can apparate to the house as well?

Catherine




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Apr 18 07:49:05 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:49:05 -0000
Subject: Harry's *dead* relatives
Message-ID: <9bjgth+9cc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17058

Dumbledore said, the Dursleys were Harrys only *living* relatives. I 
believe, knowing JKR's tendancy to give us hints with such sentances, 
that there will probably be some *dead*, so Ghost - relatives Harry 
will  meet in furture books. We don't know why some people turn out to 
be ghosts or if James and Lilly ever will , but if Harry has a long 
line of magic on his father's side, he surely has some ghost-relatives 
that may be able to help him on future tasks.
Am I making any sense?
Just a thought, any other opinion?
Mecki




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed Apr 18 08:43:59 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:43:59 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] motorbike - Dementors - Patronus
In-Reply-To: <9bhtm2+f1kk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEFBCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17059

MOTORBIKE

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]

> Please, please, can Sirius come pick Harry up at 4 Privet Drive on his 
> motorbike sometime?  I know a squad of Ministry workers will have to 
> follow behind to do memory charms, but I so want to see Vernon's face 
> when a flying motorbike lands on his roof.

I'd suggest that Sirius should be cleared first. ;) You don't want him
get kissed by a Dementor right afterwards, do you? But I have always
dreamed of a scene where Sirius visits the Dursleys and tells Vernon
and Petunia what he thinks about the way they treat his godson...

DEMENTORS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]

> I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?  
> Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who subjects 
> himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?

My take on the Dementors is that they stir up traumatic memories
(yes, I know we have discussed this before).  It makes sense. Harry
has witnessed his parents being killed by Voldemort as a baby.
Although he doesn't remember it consciously, the memory *is* there
and the Dementors have the power to bring it back. Neville might
have watched his parents being tortured, and although he has
forgotten it or his memory might have been modified, I think he
will relive this scene when face to a Dementor. He was quite shaken
in the train, too. Ginny was in the chamber of secrets, I'd say this
absolutely qualifies as a traumatic memory. She was affected by the
Dementor in the train, too. Lupin might see some horrors he has
witnessed while he was fighting Voldemort during VWI, but I think
they will make him relive the moment when he was bitten by a 
werewolf. Think of his boggart which is the Moon. I'm quite sure
about what Sirius saw when the Dementors surrounded him near
the lake. He collapsed although he had been around Dementors
for twelve years. I don't know for the others, though. Maybe Ron
and Hermione just collapsed because there were too many Dementors,
that seems to affect anyone because they suck all your happy memories
out of you.

PATRONUS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Hardenbrook [mailto:DaveH47 at mindspring.com]

> What about Sirius?  I like to imagine his is a mermaid, because
> that's what I think mine would be.

A mermaid? LOL! No seriously... I think his Patronus would take
the same form as his animagus form, it would be a giant dog that
looks like a grim. The Patronus comes from within the wizard who
conjures it, and the animagus form reflects the personality of  the
wizard, too, IMO.

> I have no idea what Dumbledore's is ( Socks?? :) )...

My bet is on a phoenix. Just a gut feeling.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 16 23:09:28 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:09:28 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion in HP
Message-ID: <LAW2-F10f69aZbLAX3c00009f5c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17060

Raven wrote:
>I also wondered
>about St. Mungo's Hospital.  There isn't a real St.
>Mungo, is there?  I went to Catholic school for seven
>years and don't remember that name...though I have
>heard of some just as strange.  If it's not a real
>saint, then did she pick that name just because a lot
>of hospitals are named after saints, or is it in
>refrence to something else?

There was a St Mungo alright.  He was a bishop who lived in Britain in the 
7th century.  He is the patron saint of Glasgow, and his feast day is on 
January 14th.  He was also known as Kentigern - Mungo, meaning  "beloved" 
was a nickname the Celts gave him, reflecting the affection in which he was 
held.  He is still reasonably well-known in Scotland.

I think JKR wisely steers clear of religion in HP.  The Hogwarts kids seem 
to come from all backgrounds - I'm guessing the Patil twins are from a 
non-Christian background.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Wed Apr 18 11:14:07 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:14:07 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9bihrl+muln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bjsu0+s6nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17061

Rebecca wrote:
A galant defense of Snape?s teaching qualities, to which

Lyda answered 
just as galantly.

Catherine (I think!) said she had the feeling this discussion wasn?t 
ended by my provocative

 >>So I think the question of Snape?s teaching qualifications and 
> qualities should be settled - there are none, that?s all.<<

and it wasn?t! As if I wanted it to! ;-)

So here goes:

> A teacher's job is to 
> teach -- that is, to impart knowledge to the students. If a teacher 
> possesses thorough knowledge of the subject he is required to teach, 
> and is capable of expressing that knowledge to his students in a way 
> that they can understand, and if as a result those students are able 
> to demonstrate that they have learned the skills required of them, 
> then that teacher is qualified.<< (that?s Rebecca?s, I think).

 I think Snape, 
> as simply a teacher, is probably one of Hogwarts' best. He knows the 
> information, and he delivers it to the students efficiently, for the 
> most part. He doesn't view his job as "professor" to also 
> include "mentor, role model, and best friend"; he just teaches the 
> material. (that?s Lyda agreeing).

Rebecca again:
 The 
> history of learning is full of examples of harsh taskmasters who 
> drove their students to excellence.<<

And Lyda:
> It is not Snape's style to give that warm, fuzzy, "everyone's a 
> winner" atmosphere in the classroom.  Snape has no time (nor 
interest) to be the 
> loving, caring teacher for all the Nevilles in his classes. He's 
> harsh, because he 1) doesn't suffer fools well 2) doesn't believe in 
> all that mushy-mentor stuff. It seems that Snape views the best way 
toteach as drilling the information into students, and making them 
work for their grades. 


Yes, yes, you?re absolutely right there, you two! Those are excellent 
analyses of his methods and of the policy behind them.

But still, two questions for me remain unanswered, and as long as they 
do, I don?t see how I can ever admit that Snape *is* a teacher (in the 
sense of having the right personality for it, not in the sense of an 
exact job description, honestly, Sarah!).

1. Does he enjoy it?  (Lyda?s words)

No, he doesn?t. Whatever made him come to Hogwarts and whatever made 
him take on the job, he didn?t want it, I?m sure of that. He likes 
imposing his authority on the students, he enjoys letting them feel 
his superiority and power over them, he takes pleasure in confronting 
them with their dunderheadishness, but that?s not the reason he likes 
his job, it?s the thing that makes it bearable for him. 

Above all, Snape is an impatient man. Impatient people don?t make 
teachers, believe me. It?s the main reason why I dropped my own plans 
of becoming one.

2. "I see no difference"

Rebecca explains Snape?s method as "The harsh task master driving his 
students to excellence". That may well be the effect with some 
students. And that gives him a certain right to waspish remarks, to 
harsh criticism, to lots of homework, everything that has to do with 
success or failure in the field of study. (This covers even his cruel 
remarks to Neville, because he criticises Neville?s intellectual 
failures).

But it does not cover that "I see no difference" remark to Hermione in 
GoF. I think we all agree that this was surprisingly cruel even by 
Snape?s usual standards. It is *not* for a teacher to comment 
negatively  on a student?s physical unattractiveness or disability if 
it has nothing to do with his/her academic achievement.

This comment was, as Catherine put it very well a while ago, 
pointlessly cruel and thoroughly unprofessional.

I don?t think, you?ll be able to find an excuse for that. You may find 
an excuse in his character or in his mysterious past or where ever 
else. But it?s his teaching qualities we?re looking into here, and if 
you will find a pedagogical justification for this comment, as you 
have found for most of his other cruelties, please don?t hesitate to 
post it.

Lea






From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 11:16:37 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:16:37 -0000
Subject: Patronus (sort of off topic)
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEFBCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9bjt2l+6h9m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17062

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
PATRONUS
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dave Hardenbrook [mailto:DaveH47 at m...]
> 
> > What about Sirius?  I like to imagine his is a mermaid, because
> > that's what I think mine would be.
> 
> A mermaid? LOL! No seriously... 

ROFL!! If you only knew the fanfiction I am writing!

But his patronus CAN'T be a mermaid because he, uhmmm, hasn't met her 
yet. 

--Suzanne




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr 18 11:27:38 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:27:38 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bi97s+m3kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bjtna+domr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17063

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
> Can anyone please help??
> My dear other half has been
> re-reading PoA and has come up
> against a major problem which may be
> spoiling his enjoyment of it :(
> Namely, the Dementors (no, not their
> existence, that's upsetting him,
> that's pretty universal...) - why do
> they affect Harry so badly that he
> passes out every time they come near?
> They upset and frighten everyone, but
> it's only Harry who is so disturbed.
> I'm sure that this must have been
> discussed in the past but I couldn't
> find anything in the search and my
> crappy TV email makes searching v.
> difficult - so if anyone can point me
> to the past posts,   I'd be v
> grateful...

Harry is affected so deeply because he had a *deeply traumatic 
experience* as a child -- one that is buried in his subconscious. 

That's why every time the dementors turn up he hears his parents' 
voices screaming and begging for mercy.

He relives their deaths every time a dementor comes near him because 
a dementor's nature is to pull the worst memories in a person to the 
forefront of their mind and torment the person with them.

That's why people go mad in Azkaban -- the Dementors destroy and suck 
out all happy thoughts, and the person is left with nothing but awful 
thoughts and tormenting memories.

Indigo (who finished a reread of PoA about a week and a half ago) 





From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Apr 18 11:31:22 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:31:22 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9biaql+ldt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bjtua+u37b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17064

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:


I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?  
Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who subjects 
himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?

Amy Z


We know that the boggart turns into the moon.

I daresay the Dementor fills Lupin's mind with images of the full 
moon, or of Lupin's dread of losing control and hurting someone while 
a werewolf.

Indigo
[who thinks Harry Anderson should play Lupin in the movie] 




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 18 12:43:37 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:43:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elf Magic / Apparating
References: <9bjaii+oamj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADD8BF9.DA637CB2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17065

Bugg wrote:

> Instinctive magic? Interesting theory: Elf powers are
> innate and 'poofing' is not restricted as apparating is.
> The spell that prevents apparating could treat 'poofing'
> as any spell or natural trait and not as apparating.
>
> I still wonder if wizard magic could stop it.

Probably. Dobby is a tremendously unusual case for a house-elf, in that
he takes the initiative to leave his home-place. So I doubt the need to
contain house-elf "poofing" has arisen before. But they do need to get
around, you know, to take care of fireplaces and straighten up or
whatever else they do besides make killer eclairs, so I imagine wizards
know about the ability. Why do you think they'd want to stop it?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 12:49:42 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:49:42 -0000
Subject: Protection
In-Reply-To: <9bjg31+u18m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bk2h6+b0hn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17066


> 
> I don't know whether it could be an anti-apparating spell.  We know 
> that Arthur Weasley could DIS apparate from the house.  Does it 
> follow, therefore, that people can apparate to the house as well?
> 
> Catherine


Shhhh!  Don't let Voldie hear you - he'll be Apparating to the 
Dursleys right away!

-jenny from ravenclaw******************************************




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 12:50:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bjtua+u37b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010418125054.33488.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17067

> I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near? 
> Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who
> subjects himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?
 
I don't think the Dementors affect people like that; they're icky and
scary in themselves, but Harry's reaction is special.  

For the others' reactions and their fears, you have to look at
Boggarts.  That's why the Boggart episode is so revealing.  The
others are afraid of more mundane, down to earth things.

Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class show
up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would he see a
Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 13:37:25 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:37:25 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F68h5VxhBzAgPC0000c4c5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17068

I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under a 
Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and not find 
him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?  Dumbledore would be the 
obvious answer, but maybe he thought it would be better to chose someone 
less obvious.  Any suggestions?


>From: meboriqua at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:49:42 -0000
>
>
> >
> > I don't know whether it could be an anti-apparating spell.  We know
> > that Arthur Weasley could DIS apparate from the house.  Does it
> > follow, therefore, that people can apparate to the house as well?
> >
> > Catherine
>
>
>Shhhh!  Don't let Voldie hear you - he'll be Apparating to the
>Dursleys right away!
>
>-jenny from ravenclaw******************************************
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 13:37:40 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:37:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
In-Reply-To: <3ADD20C9.9F11D2E@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20010418133740.76994.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17069

--- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> A thought on this...what is the protection that the
> Dursleys offer. Perhaps they offer the protection
> that only Muggles can do? Ignorance of the magic
> world?

Didn't Voldie say that Dumbledore had *invoked* an
ancient protection over Harry while he was at the
Dursleys?  DOn't have my GOF with me, but that was the
impression I had.  Right after leaving Harry on their
doorstep, Dumbledore did this incredibly complex piece
of ancient magic that would protect him until he could
protect himself.  But it's very hard and draining to
do, so he can't just move the protection to the
Weasleys or something later. 



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 14:21:56 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F68h5VxhBzAgPC0000c4c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010418142156.18489.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17070

--- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom
and
> not find him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?  
> Dumbledore would be the obvious answer, but maybe he thought it 
> would be better to chose someone 
> less obvious.  Any suggestions?


Snape, obviously.  The last person on earth anyone would suspect and
the main reason he lets his hatred of Harry have full rein and why he
tears around protecting him from various potential harms.

Dumbledore learned his lesson after the Potters' deaths.  NEVER pick
someone known to be close to the intended protected one.  


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 14:33:23 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:33:23 -0000
Subject: Protection
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F68h5VxhBzAgPC0000c4c5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bk8jj+luu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17071

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under 
a 
> Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and 
not find 
> him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?  Dumbledore would 
be the 
> obvious answer, but maybe he thought it would be better to chose 
someone 
> less obvious.  Any suggestions?
> 

This has been discussed at length quite recently. Was there an agreed 
upon answer? Don't remember. Probably not.

My hunch, however, is that the Fidelius charm is not the answer. 
Harry's protected at the Dursleys because they are his blood 
relatives (ref?). It is some kind of ancient magic that JKR is 
purposely leaving vague at the moment, IMO.
Knowing her MO (acronym of?) that would mean that it will be fully 
explicated in the future and will probably play an important part in 
the plot. Remember Azkaban?


Naama 




From margdean at erols.com  Wed Apr 18 14:22:56 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:22:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Relatives on fathers side
References: <20010418133740.76994.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADDA340.D995EF52@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17072

Andrea wrote:
> 
> --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
> > A thought on this...what is the protection that the
> > Dursleys offer. Perhaps they offer the protection
> > that only Muggles can do? Ignorance of the magic
> > world?
> 
> Didn't Voldie say that Dumbledore had *invoked* an
> ancient protection over Harry while he was at the
> Dursleys?  DOn't have my GOF with me, but that was the
> impression I had.  Right after leaving Harry on their
> doorstep, Dumbledore did this incredibly complex piece
> of ancient magic that would protect him until he could
> protect himself.  But it's very hard and draining to
> do, so he can't just move the protection to the
> Weasleys or something later.

I tend to think it's the blood relationship that is important;
it's the sort of thing I'd expect an "ancient magic" to be based
on.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 15:55:33 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:55:33 -0000
Subject: HP morally questionable? Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F136o9WanR0bBn000018f0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bkddl+d8o9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17073

Rebecca wrote:

>Is it true that "in each of the stories" evil would not be    
>defeated >unless Harry broke school rules

Certainly, and a good moral lesson it teaches too, don't just blindly 
follow orders. Far, far, more evil in the world had been cause by 
people following orders than by people disobeying orders. Think for 
yourself!  

>Or told lies?

"Harry, I'm the warden at Askaban, do you know where Sirius Black is?"
The only moral answer to this question is "no". You don't have a 
right to know everything I know and for some questions silence is the 
equivalent to an answer so I'm fully justified in telling lies. Ask 
me no questions and I'll tell you no loes.

>2. Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct,"

What misconduct? 

 








--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Rebecca wrote:
> 
> >1.  Is it true that "in each of the stories" evil would not be 
defeated
> >unless Harry broke school rules and/or told lies?
> >
> >2.  Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct," as 
charged?
> >
> >My personal response would be "no" to both questions.
> 
> 1.  I can't think that Harry broke any school rules to defeat V in 
GoF, 
> unless you count the blatant cheating, encouraged by authority 
figures, 
> throughout the tournament.  But that was not directly connected 
with V, and 
> was part of the increasing moral complexity of Harry's world.
> 
> 2.  Dumbledore knows what to overlook and when.  For instance, I 
think he 
> knows perfectly well that some of the Slytherins are not joining in 
the 
> toast to Cedric Diggory in the leaving feast, but also knows this 
is not the 
> time for a confrontation.
> 
> My personal response to the points raised in the article is "so 
what?"  Show 
> me a classic of children's (or any other) literature where our hero 
or 
> heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all the decisions, 
strict 
> adherence to rules and regulations and never, ever conceals 
anything and 
> I'll show you a *very* dull book.
> 
> Even Little Women (one of the preachiest books ever written - and 
still 
> actually read) contains this immortal exchange:
> Amy: I hate unladylike behaviour.
> Jo: And I hate affected, niminy-piminy chits!
> Way to go, Jo.
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Wed Apr 18 16:38:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:38:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
References: <20010418142156.18489.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADDC317.2FBD0665@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17074

> --- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and
> not find him.

Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue him
with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that Harry
stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. Of
course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find it, but
still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley house is
hidden under the Fidelius charm?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed Apr 18 17:24:45 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:24:45 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <3ADD2281.14FDC22D@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9bkikt+ui0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17075

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at s...>

Jamieson wrote:

> Actually, from what I remember, it's a moon.
> 
> from PoA, page 253
> "...He'll be delighted", he said cooly.  "He set that essay hoping 
someone would realise what my symptoms meant. Did you chek the lunar 
chart and realise that I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you 
realise that the Boggart changed into the moon when it saw me."
 

Actually this quote is talking about what the boggort turned into 
when it faced Lupin not his patronus. The only mention about Lupin's 
patronus is on pg.85 of PoA:

"And Professor Lupin stepped over you, and walked toward the 
dementor, and pulled out his wand," said Hermione,"and he said, 'None 
of us is hiding Sirius Black under our cloaks. Go.' But the dementor 
didn't move, so Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot 
out of his wand at it, and it turned around and sort of glided 
away..."

Cheers,
         Kristin








From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 15:13:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:13:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opening Gambits: Trivia Challenge
Message-ID: <LAW2-F61Mpw6yL2m9lH0000a785@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17076

Caius's quiz, with Ebony's answers (on same line) and mine, strictly on the 
honour system, of course.  Great idea!

> >"Good afternoon,"
> >
> >"Bad business, Hagrid,"
> >
> >"Expelliarmus!"--Sirius Black?
> >
> >"Ahoy there!"
Charlie Weasley?  (coming to pick up Norbert)
> >
> >"Send him off, ref! Red card!"
Lee Jordan?
> >
> >"Miss - er -?"
Professor Binns
> >
> >"Hello. Hogwarts, too?" -- Draco Malfoy.
Or could it be Mrs Weasley?
> >
> >"Mom.geroff,"--Ron Weasley.
> >
> >"Has anyone seen a toad?" -- Hermione Granger.

> >
> >"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
> >
> >"No thank you Ludo"
Mr Crouch?
> >
> >"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?"
Nearly Headless Nick
> >
> >"Ah, yes. Harry Potter"
> >
> >"Harry Potter!"
> >
> >"It can't be Harry Potter?"
Dedalus Diggle, at the Leaky Cauldron on Harry's first visit?
> >
> >"All right, Harry?"
Hagrid?
> >
> >"Hello, Harry Potter."
Tom Riddle at 16
> >
> >"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding."
> >
> >"Are you serious, Professor?"
> >
> >"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE"... Mad-Eye Moody.
> >
> >"What are you looking for, boy?"
Argus Filch
> >
> >"Use the boy....use the boy.."
> >
> >"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable,
> >I am thinking"... Viktor Krum.
> >
> >"Absolutely not."
> >
> >"Thirty-six"
> >
> >"What a night,"--Professor McGonagall.
> >
> >"Can't stay long, mother"
Percy Weasley
> >
> >"Greenhouse three today, chaps!"--Professor Sprout.
> >
> >"What?"
> >
> >"Nearly,"
> >
> >"Quiet"
Professor Lupin
> >
> >"Oh!"
> >
> >"A small gillywater --" Madam Rosmerta.
> >
> >"Little tyke"--either Marge or Vernon Dursley.
> >
> >"What's that you're calling me?"
> >
> >"Hi"
> >
> >"packed with Muggles, of course"--HAS to be one of the Weasleys.
> >
> >Maybe not that small, Ludo"
Professor Flitwick
> >
> >"No..Why?"
> >
> >"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 18:20:34 2001
From: rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com (rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:20:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's *dead* relatives
In-Reply-To: <9bjgth+9cc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bklti+pdsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17077

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> Dumbledore said, the Dursleys were Harrys only *living* relatives. 
I 
> believe, knowing JKR's tendancy to give us hints with such 
sentances, 
> that there will probably be some *dead*, so Ghost - relatives Harry 
> will  meet in furture books. We don't know why some people turn out 
to 
> be ghosts or if James and Lilly ever will , but if Harry has a long 
> line of magic on his father's side, he surely has some ghost-
relatives 
> that may be able to help him on future tasks.
> Am I making any sense?
> Just a thought, any other opinion?
> Mecki

I don't think James or Lily will appear as ghosts on the other books. 
But since we don't know what happen to James relatives it could be a 
possibility.
Karumi 




From birdy739 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 19:40:45 2001
From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:40:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Relatives on fathers side
Message-ID: <F221HraK2yR0F3praZf000088e3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17078

In SS, first chapter, Dumbledore was talking with McGonagall:
"...He'll be famous - a legend - I wouldn't be surprised if today was known 
as Harry Potter day in the future - -there will be books written about Harry 
- every child in our world will know his name!" (said by McGonagall)
"Exactly," said Dumbledore,"It would be enough to turn any boys head. Famous 
before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even remember! 
Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that 
until he's ready to take it?"

So, perhaps this is the reason that Dumbledore did not send Harry to 
relations on his father side, because wasn't his father born a wizard?
As to sending Harry to the Dursleys, well.... maybe everyone else (Lily's 
mother, father, even other siblings perhaps) passed away.


>From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Relatives on fathers side
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:02:54 -0000
>
>I have read all four of the American versions with my boys. We are
>now reading the British versions. Right now we are on PS/SS and just
>finished chapter 6. Both boys brought up an interesting fact. Where
>are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why didn't Dumbledore
>send Harry to be with relations on that side? He must have had
>someone to go to on that side of the family. Another point they also
>mentioned was why just the Dursleys, his mom must have had other
>relations to besides her sister. If he had a Godfather, where is his
>Godmother? There was no mention of one. Only his Godfather. Just some
>more to think about Harry's childhood.
>Witchwanda or Wanda The Witch
>

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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Apr 18 19:32:21 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:32:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417214836.02fe9f00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9bkq45+dii7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17079

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 10:12 PM 4/17/01 +0000, Kristin wrote:
> >It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing mentioned
> >is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about
> >what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.
> 
> It seems to me a wolf would be the last thing that his Patronus
> would be.  Right now, I'm kind of imagining that his Patronus
> is a ribbon of firey light resembling Saturn's rings, because it 
seems
> to me that the day of liberation for werewolves will be the day the
> moon ventures too close to Earth and disintegrates, like the
> moon(s) that became Saturn's rings.
> 
> What about Sirius?  I like to imagine his is a mermaid, because
> that's what I think mine would be.
> 
> I have no idea what Dumbledore's is ( Socks?? :) )...
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

Thanks. I have a long-shot theory that might tie together the Patronus 
and the Animagus animal form. Both might be animal manifestations of 
your innner-self or your "spirit guide". So for James and Harry it's a 
stag. Sirius its a dog. McGonagall it's a cat. 

Any thoughts?

:-)Milz




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 19:47:12 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:47:12 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9bkq45+dii7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bkr00+8ohs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17080

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > At 10:12 PM 4/17/01 +0000, Kristin wrote:
> > >It's never mentioned what his patronus is. The only thing 
mentioned
> > >is a silver light coming from his wand.  We could speculate about
> > >what it is. I would guess that maybe it's a wolf.
> > 
> > It seems to me a wolf would be the last thing that his Patronus
> > would be.  Right now, I'm kind of imagining that his Patronus
> > is a ribbon of firey light resembling Saturn's rings, because it 
> seems
> > to me that the day of liberation for werewolves will be the day 
the
> > moon ventures too close to Earth and disintegrates, like the
> > moon(s) that became Saturn's rings.
> > 
> > What about Sirius?  I like to imagine his is a mermaid, because
> > that's what I think mine would be.
> > 
> > I have no idea what Dumbledore's is ( Socks?? :) )...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >                                                  -- Dave
> 
> Thanks. I have a long-shot theory that might tie together the 
Patronus 
> and the Animagus animal form. Both might be animal manifestations of 
> your innner-self or your "spirit guide". So for James and Harry it's 
a 
> stag. Sirius its a dog. McGonagall it's a cat. 


JKR said in an interview that she would be a sea otter.




From sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 20:43:04 2001
From: sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com (sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:43:04 -0000
Subject: What does Harry do for YOU?
Message-ID: <9bku8o+a52e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17081

I am a college student writing a paper on why Harry Potter is great 
for adults and kids.  I would like some feedback/personal opinions 
about why you like Harry Potter.  Thanks.

Sabrina




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:45:02 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:45:02 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
Message-ID: <9bkuce+u5ue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17082

Brought to you by the Leaky Cauldron.  (Well, actually Premiere ... )

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_04_15_archive.html#3227021

There are photos of McGonagall, Dumbledore (in the final hospital 
scene), Harry, Hagrid and first picture of Flitwick.  No Snape though.

Comments
-- love the picture of Flitwick, standing on the table.  Very cute.
-- McGonagall is still without her glasses.
Personally, I have no problem with Harry's tidy hair but if you want 
to split the hair, go ahead.
-- Hagrid.  Just as I picture him.  No problem here.
-- Dumbledore.  Well, I am increasingly dissatisfied with Richard 
Harris.  His eyes don't twinkle and look fragile.  Where's Ian 
McKellen when you need him? :sigh: LOTR.

Would the good people of WB please give us Snape in the next batch of 
stills?  I can't enought of Alan Rickman's Snape.





From bkdelong at pobox.com  Wed Apr 18 20:49:42 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:49:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9bkuce+u5ue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010418164817.05f34b80@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17083

At 08:45 PM 04/18/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>No Snape though.
>
>Would the good people of WB please give us Snape in the next batch of
>stills?  I can't enought of Alan Rickman's Snape.

Heh. Someone emailed me this morning to complain about that. Have no 
fear...I'm hoping we'll see some soon. I'm surprised we haven't seen any 
ghosts, Prof. Sprout, Madame Pince or Pomfrey...


--
B.K. DeLong
Contributor
The Leaky Cauldron
  an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site
+1.617.877.3271

bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:48:53 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:48:53 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F97cxtniFKULPE00006f9b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17084

Amanda wrote:
>
> > --- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> > a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and
> > not find him.
>
>Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue him
>with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that Harry
>stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. Of
>course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find it, but
>still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley house is
>hidden under the Fidelius charm?

I presume the charm hides you from your enemies, not your friends.  I 
imagine the enemy is simply not able to take in any information about your 
whereabouts, as well as not able to see you even if looking through your 
window.  In support of this, other people than Wormtail knew the Potters 
were in Godric's Hollow: Black and Hagrid went to the house after V's 
fateful visit (OK it might have ceased to work by then, but I still think 
they knew).  Now that Sirius has some friends again, you might think *he* 
could make use of it!
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 16:04:00 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:04:00 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
Message-ID: <LAW2-F103ziRAVvX6Rm00008de2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17085

Perhaps he could put two and two together?  He says "One glance at [the map] 
told me all I needed to know" - is this typical JKR evasiveness?  He'd have 
gone after H H & R anyway, as this would be a golden chance to get them all 
expelled for breaking bounds.  Or, he might have remembered his own 
experiences in the Shrieking Shack (or the tunnel to it), put that together 
with Remus's forgotten potion and gone to rescue them from the werewolf, 
without actually expecting to find Black there.  In which case, it's a pity 
he didn't think to bring the potion with him...or did he deliberately forget 
it, thinking he'd be bound to be able to protect them on his own, while 
exposing Remus to the world at large and finally being rid of him...one way 
or the other.  Or did JKR just overlook a few details?


>From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
>
>-- Denise R <gypsycaine at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > How about one more step in this direction?  They only appear to
> > other "Marauders?"  Hence, Pettigrew, Lupin or Sirius would not
> > appear to Snape, but if Lupin had the map, he'd instantly know
> > Pettigrew or Sirius were about!
>
>In PoA, Snape went charging out the castle door to the Whomping
>Willow because he saw the Map on Lupin's desk.  If he couldn't see
>Sirius or Lupin, why did he go after H, H & R?
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:55:42 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:55:42 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010418164817.05f34b80@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <9bkv0e+109qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17086

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> Heh. Someone emailed me this morning to complain about that. Have 
no 
> fear...I'm hoping we'll see some soon. I'm surprised we haven't 
seen any 
> ghosts, Prof. Sprout, Madame Pince or Pomfrey...

I think they haven't finished the post-production visual effects with 
the ghosts -- go Nick, off with their heads; Sprout doesn't feature 
prominently until CoS.  It will be interesting to have all four Head 
of Houses.
Neither Pince nor Pomfrey is that important.  The female character 
I'm really looking forward to is Julie Walters/Mrs Weasley.





From mhopkins at telus.net  Wed Apr 18 19:21:50 2001
From: mhopkins at telus.net (Megan Hopkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:21:50 -0500
Subject: Lupin's Patronus
Message-ID: <001501c0c83c$d2498380$4a4034d1@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17087

Hi Everyone,

My first time responding. I was just thinking about the discussion on Lupin's patronus (I just finished my third read of PoA two nights ago so my thoughts on it are still pretty fresh) and I think I have a pretty good idea what it is. First of all, Lupin's boggart turns into a full moon, and later on his patronus is described, as Kristin noted previously:

>The only mention about Lupin's 
>patronus is on pg.85 of PoA:

>"And Professor Lupin stepped over you, and walked toward the 
>dementor, and pulled out his wand," said Hermione,"and he said, 'None 
>of us is hiding Sirius Black under our cloaks. Go.' But the dementor 
>didn't move, so Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot 
>out of his wand at it, and it turned around and sort of glided 
>away..."

So therefore, as a result of his patronus being silvery and gliding away, my best assumption, or guess, is that his patronus is a bunch of clouds. It makes sense. The clouds seem to be his only protection from the full moon and therefore are a very good thing (or happy thought) for him!

What do you think?

Megan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Apr 18 21:37:31 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:37:31 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9bkv0e+109qv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bl1er+k7no@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17088

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:
> > Heh. Someone emailed me this morning to complain about that. Have 
> no 
> > fear...I'm hoping we'll see some soon. I'm surprised we haven't 
> seen any 
> > ghosts, Prof. Sprout, Madame Pince or Pomfrey...
> 
> I think they haven't finished the post-production visual effects 
with 
> the ghosts -- go Nick, off with their heads; Sprout doesn't feature 
> prominently until CoS.  It will be interesting to have all four 
Head 
> of Houses.
> Neither Pince nor Pomfrey is that important.  The female character 
> I'm really looking forward to is Julie Walters/Mrs Weasley.

Not to mentione the twins! Plus a picture of Quirrells face (please). 
And oh, am I looking forward to one with little Draco in the middle 
of (hopefully very trollish) Crabbe and Goyle :)

/Jennifer




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Apr 18 21:37:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:37:02 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <20010418125054.33488.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bl1du+ku1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17089

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class show
> up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would he see a
> Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?

	Could be, could be. But I imagine that if Snape encounters a 
Dementor he then has a vision of a cold sloping tunnel with a howling 
werewolf bearing down on him...
Pippin





From inyron at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 21:48:26 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:48:26 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?It=92s_Harry_Fortnight!?=
Message-ID: <9bl23a+6h8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17090



I know some of you have lives, which is why Harry Fortnight is a 
little late in getting started.  But apparently I don't, so I wanted 
to post.

Literary analysis, and analyzing  diffrent passages and people are 
great.  Unfortunately, I'm not good at that. When I originally got 
the books and read through them a few dozen times (OK, only six or 
seven each.  or eight.) I wasn't that impressed with Harry as a 
character.  I spent a lot of time thinking about the twins, or Ron or 
Hermione, or Lupin, but I just saw Harry as everyboy, not that 
distinctive.  He was just a vehicle to show us this wonderful world.  
I suppose I managed to ignore him for so many re-reads because I was 
just concentrating on the adventure aspect.

Then I got my computer back from storage.  Fanfiction was the first 
place I turned.  But I wasn't that interested in stories with Harry 
anyway, so I didn't read too many.  It wasn't until I got here, to 
this egroup a couple months ago (I lurk a lot) that I really started 
looking at Harry differently, mostly because of what you guys point 
out.  I began to see the decisions he makes as part of his 
personality, rather than just "I have to do this to get the plot to 
point B."  

Like his grown-up trust issues.  Growing up with the Dursleys, he 
learned that grown-ups were useless, and you should just keep your 
mouth shut, which is why he didn't tell Dumbledore about the voices 
in the walls, which is why (as someone said) his interactions with 
Lupin were such a big deal, which is why (as someone said) it was so 
hard for him to go to Dumbledore when his scar was hurting.  I did 
NOT get that the first time around.  "Why is he hesitating to go to 
Dumbledore?  Shouldn't he be anxious?  Why is Dumbledore thanking him 
so gravely?"

Someone else pointed out, during Ron Week, that while Hermione was 
fighting with the boys, Ron said some mean things, but Harry wasn't 
much help either, he was being very passive-aggressive about it.  I 
reread (again) SS two nights ago, and was a bit taken aback at the 
meanness of a lot of Harry's thoughts.  It was the same thing.  Ron 
was saying it out loud, and Harry's being very quiet, but agreeing 
completely.   Again, I never really noticed this.

Oh, and I now realize how super-brave he is.  Really.

In retrospect, I guess these things are obvious, which is why I said 
I sucked at analysis.

Now I've begun to enjoy Harry fanfiction, and boy oh boy, I thought I 
was looking forward to OotP *before*


So, thank you guys very much.  And I hope, for the rest of Harry 
Fortnight you will continue to enlighten me on what makes Harry tick, 
I don't think I'm completely there.  So, a couple of questions, if 
you please-

*Harry really doesn't socialize much, outside the troika (is this the 
term we're using now?)  Not even so much with his Quidditch-mates.  
The Weasley's were the first wizarding family he met, and they proved 
very enlightening and friendly.  But, If Harry had sat alone with, 
say, Seamus, during the ride to Hogwarts, do you think he and Ron 
would still be best friends?  

*Why does he keep referring to Ron as "Weasley" in FB?

*I love Sirius as much as the next girl, but how did he become the 
most important grown-up in Harry's life about an hour after breaking 
Ron's leg?  And acting, you know, all yellow-teethed and insane?  
After learning who MWPP were, you'd think he'd have a greater 
appreciation for Lupin too.

OK, I guess that's it for now.  Sorry I couldn't identify all of 
the "someones" whose ideas I absorbed.


inyron

who wants to give a shout out to members of granger-weasley, and HP- 
Paradise, and point out, hey, I'm not afraid of posting here! 
Really.  





From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 22:08:47 2001
From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:08:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Lupin's Patronus // Protection // Marauder's Map 
Message-ID: <20010418220847.24342.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17091

Okay, this may take awhile, but I've had this all up
in my head and really need to get it out.
First off, Lupin's patronus, Megan, you're cloud idea
is really good.  But, you know that fog that comes out
at night and makes everything all hidden, I think
that's his patronus, which is a lot like clouds.
Second, the Dursley's house and Harry being protected
in it.  I reckon that it's not the Fidelous charm
(excuse my spelling on some these words, I don't have
any of my books near me).  I think that since Petunia
is Lily's sister and Lily died saving Harry and gave
him the protection of her love, that anybody blood
related to Lily will have a small amount of that
protection, no matter how much they hate the boy.  And
that's exactly why Ron could find it, because it's not
hidden at all.  
And the Marauder's Map.  I'm pretty sure, this group
has came up with a reason, but I spent two nights
trying to figure out why you only saw certain people
so I'm setting it loose.
The only people it shows are ones you are looking for,
or are subconsciously always in the back of you mind. 
Like Lupin could see Sirius and Pettigrew because the
were both Marauders and never really noticed them
before because he wasn't looking for them nor were
they in the general area of who he was looking for. 
And Harry was checking to see if Snape was anywhere
around in PoA, which totally explains why the "only
people who are moving" idea doesn't counterpart with
it.  
Okay, that's all.  Have a good night ya'll!

-Sarah

=====
Sometimes, the best things in life aren't free.  Afterall, Harry Potter books are 15 bucks each, not counting all the other Potter stuff...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 18 22:51:39 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:51:39 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <9biaql+ldt5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bl5pr+bp6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17092

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z"
<aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Andrea wrote:
> 
> > Lupin explains that only Harry
has true horrors in his
> > past, namely facing Voldemort and
having his parents
> > murdered.  "The horrors in your
past are enough to
> > make anyone pass out"
(paraphrased from Lupin)
> 
> But, booleanfox, don't tell your
husband that unless he's gotten to 
> the chapter where Harry realizes
it's his mum he's hearing.  Or 
> better yet, to the chapter where
Lupin says the above.  Just tell him 
> that All Will Be Explained.
> 
> Did you remember this and just
didn't find it convincing?  Or had
you 
> forgotten?
Um, <in very small voice and feeling
quite ashamed> I just forgot. I don't
think I'm ready for this Discussion
Group yet - I've only read all the
books twice and seem to forget the
basic stuff pretty easily.  I'm
feeling kind of stupid now and think
that I won't participate until I've
read all the books a couple of times
more as I don't want to make an idiot
of myself again by asking basic
questions...I thought I was such a
HUGE HP fan until I read this !!
love to you all, Boolean the Fox




From dasienko at email.com  Wed Apr 18 22:53:48 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:53:48 -0000
Subject: Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <9bho85+4kle@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bl5ts+c1mo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17093

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Here's a whacky thought. In GoF, voldy says something likeHarry is 
> protected when he is in his relatives care and that Dumbledore used 
> some kind of magic on them. What if that "magic" is love?
> 
*****SNIP******

I've been pondering the Dursleys for a long time. Are they Really 
that awful? Or 
*Are they under some kind of spell, one that makes them act they way 
that they do so Harry isn't off messing about with broomsticks and 
practicing simple charms attracting all sorts of attention to that 
kid with the scar?
 The reason I'm pondering this point is that  it suddenly hit me that 
socks are not just mentioned in realtion to Dobby. harry is always 
talking about Uncle Vernon's old sock that he received for presents. 

I hope that there is a really good reason for the Dursley's behavior. 
I would hate to think that people would treat a child the way Harry 
seems to be treated with no underlying reason




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Apr 18 22:55:05 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:55:05 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9bjsu0+s6nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bl60b+8u0e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17094

Lea wrote:

>>Whatever made him come to Hogwarts and whatever made  him take on 
the job, he didn?t want it, I?m sure of that. He likes imposing his 
authority on the students, he enjoys letting them feel  his 
superiority and power over them, he takes pleasure in confronting  
them with their dunderheadishness, but that?s not the reason he likes 
his job, it?s the thing that makes it bearable for him.<<

Now, this is true. I don't think that teaching was Snape's ideal line 
of work. IMO, he took on the teaching job because 1) He was an ex-DE, 
and his life was in pretty grave danger, and 2) He was an ex-DE, and 
no one else probably really trusts him. He didn't claim "bewitchment" 
like the others; Dumbledore was probably one of the only wizards to 
fully trust him with a job, you know, without the prejudice and 
stigmas of his past. However, even though he might not really *like* 
teaching (although, I think the job does give him some sort of 
satisfaction more than simply being "bearable"), he's still a pretty 
damn good teacher, as far as getting the information across to the 
students.

>> Above all, Snape is an impatient man. Impatient people don?t make  
teachers, believe me. It?s the main reason why I dropped my own plans 
of becoming one.<<

True again. Snape is impatient, and his frustration with the students 
definitely shows. That's why most of the kids dislike him so. But, 
again, they may hate his guts, but they're still learning. ;) 

JKR says that Dumbledore believes that "bad" teachers like Snape are 
part of life's lessons. Too right. Not only are the students learning 
Potions with great efficiency, but they're also learning how to deal 
with the impatient, ill-temepered people in the world. :)

>> Rebecca explains Snape?s method as "The harsh task master driving 
his  students to excellence". That may well be the effect with some  
students. And that gives him a certain right to waspish remarks, to  
harsh criticism, to lots of homework, everything that has to do with  
success or failure in the field of study. (This covers even his cruel 
remarks to Neville, because he criticises Neville?s intellectual 
failures). But it does not cover that "I see no difference" remark to 
Hermione in GoF. I think we all agree that this was surprisingly 
cruel even by Snape?s usual standards.<<

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to, I can't find any redeeming 
factor for the "I see no difference" comment. I agree; it was 
completely inappropriate, especially for a teacher. But, it also 
seemed, as you say, "surprisingly cruel" for Snape, even. Could there 
have been another reason for that particularly terrible remark? 
Perhaps; we know that Snape was extremely preoccupied what with the 
increasing clarity of the Dark Mark on his arm, Mad-Eye Moody lurking 
about, and Karkaroff stalking him nervously. But still... nope, this 
comment was unjustified. It *was* extremely wrong of him. But he also 
hasn't repeated anything so incredibly cruel and unprofessional 
before or since.

Lyda




From pgonzale at nd.edu  Wed Apr 18 23:35:03 2001
From: pgonzale at nd.edu (Philip Gonzales)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:35:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys
References: <9bl5ts+c1mo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c0c860$321dc000$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17095

I think the Dursleys' behavior is due to fear. My guess is that Petunia told Vernon horrible things about the wizarding world that she learned from her sister, and that's why they don't want anything to do with wizards. This seems to be one of various examples of discrimination in the canon based on ignorance. For example, there is hatred for "Mudbloods" and "Muggle-lovers" and Squibs and Gryffindors and Slytherins and half-giants and werewolves, etc.   

I think that the sock symbolizes disrespect. Lucius didn't think much of giving an old sock to Dobby, because he doesn't care for house-elves. In the same way, Vernon only gave Harry a sock, because he hates Harry's kind. 

I might be wrong about the socks, though; you have a good point. 

Also, I always wondered if Petunia was jealous of her sister, Lily. It could be for her looks, her smarts, or something else.    

--Pottermaniac
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dasienko at email.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:53 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
  > Here's a whacky thought. In GoF, voldy says something likeHarry is 
  > protected when he is in his relatives care and that Dumbledore used 
  > some kind of magic on them. What if that "magic" is love?
  > 
  *****SNIP******

  I've been pondering the Dursleys for a long time. Are they Really 
  that awful? Or 
  *Are they under some kind of spell, one that makes them act they way 
  that they do so Harry isn't off messing about with broomsticks and 
  practicing simple charms attracting all sorts of attention to that 
  kid with the scar?
  The reason I'm pondering this point is that  it suddenly hit me that 
  socks are not just mentioned in realtion to Dobby. harry is always 
  talking about Uncle Vernon's old sock that he received for presents. 

  I hope that there is a really good reason for the Dursley's behavior. 
  I would hate to think that people would treat a child the way Harry 
  seems to be treated with no underlying reason


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From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 18 23:40:12 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:40:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Harry do for YOU?
References: <9bku8o+a52e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c0c861$3af520a0$1bc84e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17096

This is the best fiction to come along since The Hobbit! My son was reading
HP and SS/PS in the fourth grade last year. He got Mom to read it and I have
been hooked since! I love these books! I love the world of HP and just
reading all four of the American versions, I had to get the British ones
too!
 Harry Potter means to me a great world of magic and mystery to escape to
form a very busy Muggle world! I hope I helped you with your paper.
Wanda The Witch
----- Original Message -----
From: <sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:43 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Harry do for YOU?


> I am a college student writing a paper on why Harry Potter is great
> for adults and kids.  I would like some feedback/personal opinions
> about why you like Harry Potter.  Thanks.
>
> Sabrina
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
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hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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>
>
>




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Apr 19 00:15:05 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:15:05 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9bkuce+u5ue@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9blam9+10916@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17097

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
[snip]
> There are photos of McGonagall, Dumbledore (in the final hospital 
> scene), Harry, Hagrid and first picture of Flitwick.  No Snape
> though.
> 
[snip]
> 
> Would the good people of WB please give us Snape in the next batch
> of stills?  I can't enought of Alan Rickman's Snape.

If you go to http://www.hpgalleries.com/ they have these stills, and 
some others as follows:

http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery29.htm
Charms-class with Prof. Flitwick on top of the books.  Hufflepuff- 
and Ravenclaw-students are clearly visible in the picture, as is an 
extra Gryffindor-boy, as well as a possible Slytherin-student 
(sometimes one feels like an MR rivet-counter, but then one remembers 
that one is not alone).

http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery30.htm
Sundry stills of staff, Harry And Draco w/Fang, and Harry at King's 
Cross.

http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery31.htm
*Large* (more than 800 pixels wide) picture of Harry, Ron and Draco - 
Ron presumably saying something witty at Draco's expense.

Best regards
Christian Stub?
Fiol? veit han fr??a




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 00:22:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:22:19 
Subject: Louisa May Alcott at Hogwarts (was: [HPforGrownups]Toasting Cedric)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F5cd92bXCH5n000000c084@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17098

Dave wrote:
<snip wonderfully funny post which you can all go read>
Thanks for a great laugh!  I suppose we have to imagine Marmee in the Albina 
Dumbledore role - regularly reducing the student body to contrite tears.  
That woman had no sense of humour! *vbg*


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 19 01:43:49 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:43:49 -0000
Subject: What does Harry do for YOU?
In-Reply-To: <9bku8o+a52e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9blfsl+nmc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17099

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sabrinarae77 at y... wrote:
> I am a college student writing a paper on why Harry Potter is great 
> for adults and kids.  I would like some feedback/personal opinions 
> about why you like Harry Potter.  Thanks.
> 
> Sabrina

I find that HP helps me escape, completely. I find that the books have 
so much happening in them you can rarely put them down. 

I find that everyone is represented in it, and it can appeal to a wide 
range of people because of that. As well, it's not a 'boring' 
childrens book, but rather something that appeals to grown ups as well 
as kids.

Bright Blessings
Jamieson




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Apr 19 01:17:31 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:17:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys
References: <9bl5ts+c1mo@eGroups.com> <002001c0c860$321dc000$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <3ADE3CAB.F0561EB2@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17100

Philip Gonzales wrote:

> Also, I always wondered if Petunia was jealous of her sister,
> Lily. It could be for her looks, her smarts, or something else.

I think it's made pretty clear in the hut-on-the-rock scene in
PS/SS that this is indeed the case.


	    "You =knew=?" said Harry.  "You =knew= I'm a --
	a wizard?"
	    "Knew?" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly.  "=Knew!=
	Of course we knew!  How could you not be, my dratted
	sister being what she was?  Oh, she got a letter just
	like that and disappeared off to that -- that =school=
	-- and came home every vacation with her pockets full
	of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats.  I was the
	only one who saw her for what she was -- a freak!
	But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this
	and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in 
	the family!"
	    She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went
	ranting on.  It seemed she had been wanting to say all
	this for years.


Sounds like a full-blown case of sibling rivalry to me,
especially the "Lily this and Lily that" part.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 00:48:21 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:48:21 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dementors
Message-ID: <LAW2-F9L4VKw8SffVLC0000b8bc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17101

Amy Z wrote:

>I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?
>Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who subjects
>himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?

Good question, to which I don't have any answers, just a slight nitpick.  
It's actually a boggart in the training sessions, so I imagine it affects 
only Harry in a Dementor-like way.  Lupin's greatest fear is the moon, as we 
see.  But I imagine being a werewolf is pretty depressing - when the 
Dementors are around, I imagine he sees and hears people he respects or 
cares about drawing back from him in horror...telling him he'll never be 
able to live any kind of a normal life, or relives actual incidents of this 
nature.

_________________________________________________________________________
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Apr 19 03:19:47 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:19:47 -0000
Subject: Opening Gambits - Solutions
Message-ID: <9bllgj+v1bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17102

Thanks to all who entered. Catherine, who e-mailed me privately, not 
only identified every speaker correctly, but gave the chapter 
citations as well.

Good afternoon,"
 Mr Ollivander 5/PS
"Bad business, Hagrid,"   
Cornelius Fudge. 14/CoS
"Expelliarmus!"  
Sirius Black 19 PoA
"Ahoy there!"
Ludo Bagman 7/G0F
"Send him off, ref! Red card!" 
Dean Thomas 11/PS
"Miss - er -?"  
Professor Binns 9/CoS
"Hello. Hogwarts, too?"  
Draco Malfoy 5/PS
"Mom..geroff," 
Ron. 6/PS
"Has anyone seen a toad?" 
Hermione 6/PS
"Dumbledore! How are you, dear fellow, how are you?"
Karkaroff 15/GoF
"No thank you Ludo"
Mr Crouch 7/GoF
"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves?" 
Nearly Headless Nick 7/PS
"Ah, yes. Harry Potter" 
Snape 8/PS
"Harry Potter!"
Dobby 2/CoS
"It can't be Harry Potter?" 
Gilderoy Lockhart 4/CoS
"All right, Harry?" 
Colin Creevey 6/CoS
"Hello, Harry Potter."    
Tom Riddle 13/CoS
"They're in here somewhere, probably hiding." 
Filch 9/PS
"Are you serious, Professor?" 
Oliver Wood 9/PS
"OH NO YOU DON"T LADDIE" 
Mad Eye Moody 13/GoF
"What are you looking for, boy?"  
Madame Pince 12/PS
"Use the boy....use the boy.."
Voldemort 17/PS
"Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as this, nor as comfortable, 
I am thinking"
Krum 23/GoF
"Absolutely not."  
Madame Pomfrey 17/PS
"Thirty-six" 
Dudley 2/PS
"What a night,"  
Arthur Weasley 3/CoS
"Can't stay long, mother" 
Percy 6/PS
"Greenhouse three today, chaps!" 
Professor Sprout 6/CoS
"What?" 
Moaning Myrtle 8/CoS
"Nearly," 
Harry 2/PS
"Quiet"  
Prof Lupin 5/PoA
"Oh!" 
Cho Chang 13/PoA
"A small gillywater --"   
Rosmerta 10/PoA
"Little tyke"
Vernon Dursley 1/PS
"What's that you're calling me?"  
Frank Bryce 1/GoF
"Hi"  
Cedric Diggory 6/GoF
".packed with Muggles, of course."
Molly Weasley 6/PS
Maybe not that small, Ludo"  
Rita Skeeter 18/GoF
"No...Why?"
Petunia Dursley 1/PS
"Not arguing, I hope, boys?"
Professor Flitwick 10/PS  

  - CMC




From pgonzale at nd.edu  Thu Apr 19 03:27:30 2001
From: pgonzale at nd.edu (Philip Gonzales)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:27:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys
References: <9bl5ts+c1mo@eGroups.com> <002001c0c860$321dc000$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu> <3ADE3CAB.F0561EB2@erols.com>
Message-ID: <003901c0c880$ab0d0460$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17103

Good work! I forgot about that scene. Petunia obviously felt neglected when she was younger.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Margaret Dean 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 8:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dursleys


  Philip Gonzales wrote:

  > Also, I always wondered if Petunia was jealous of her sister,
  > Lily. It could be for her looks, her smarts, or something else.

  I think it's made pretty clear in the hut-on-the-rock scene in
  PS/SS that this is indeed the case.


            "You =knew=?" said Harry.  "You =knew= I'm a --
        a wizard?"
            "Knew?" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly.  "=Knew!=
        Of course we knew!  How could you not be, my dratted
        sister being what she was?  Oh, she got a letter just
        like that and disappeared off to that -- that =school=
        -- and came home every vacation with her pockets full
        of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats.  I was the
        only one who saw her for what she was -- a freak!
        But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this
        and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in 
        the family!"
            She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went
        ranting on.  It seemed she had been wanting to say all
        this for years.


  Sounds like a full-blown case of sibling rivalry to me,
  especially the "Lily this and Lily that" part.


  --Margaret Dean
    <margdean at erols.com>

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
            
                    
             
       
       

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From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 19 03:46:34 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:46:34 -0000
Subject: HP morally questionable? Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <9bkddl+d8o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bln2q+bu21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17104

I'm responding to this thread in general, and as always on the tail 
end of a discussion...anyway-

Rebecca wrote:
Is it true that 'in each of the stories' evil would not be    
defeated unless Harry broke school rules?"

eggplant responded:
Certainly, and a good moral lesson it teaches too, don't just blindly 
follow orders. Far, far, more evil in the world had been cause by 
people following orders than by people disobeying orders. Think for 
yourself!"

--Not at all. Sorry Eggplant but I really disagree here. I mean I do 
not refute (in fact I readily agree) that blind faith is extremely 
dangerous, but I do not see how you can justify that evil couldn't 
have been defeated without Harry breaking rules. As someone else 
pointed out in GoF Harry isn't breaking any rules by praticipating in 
the TWT or in fighting V in the graveyard scene. True in PS/SS he 
broke the rules, but it could have been resolved otherwise had that 
choice been made, the same goes for CoS, though to a lesser extent 
IMHO, but in PoA they were following Dumbledore's orders (sort of), 
not breaking rules. I guess I'm just confused.

I do not believe that by having our "troika" lie or break rules JKR 
is glorifying such behaviour. I'd say she's just making it more 
realistic. I mean who doesn't lie or break rules sometimes (c'mon 
really...). I would have a hard time finding the Harry Potter 
characters interesting and true to life if they didn't.

I also think JKR is making another important statement here too. That 
what you truly believe is right, whether it is smiled or frowned upon 
by others is ok. However I really didn't like the idea of Harry 
killing Voldemort (i.e. using evil for greater good. Ultimately it 
can't happen IMO). Now I'm contradicting myself about it! I'll shut 
up! 

I can however see how, on the surface the book might seem immoral. 
For example in the first book Harry breaks the rules to get to the 
stone and save the day. (Immoral?) In GoF Harry's most noble decision 
(side question- Does nobility equate morality?) leads to the death of 
a friend. Yes, I see where these people are coming from. But I don't 
see how they can ignore the fact that no matter what choice is made 
the consequences good and bad are felt. The stories aren't about 
black and white values. Those shades of grey that we love to discuss 
are the include the idea that what seems right isn't always perfect, 
and what might seem wrong doesn't always lead to destruction...It's a 
sticky subject, eh? 

As usual I have so many more questions than anwsers now that I'm 
think about this. That's why I love Harry Potter.

Scott 

> >Or told lies?
> 
> "Harry, I'm the warden at Askaban, do you know where Sirius Black 
is?"
> The only moral answer to this question is "no". You don't have a 
> right to know everything I know and for some questions silence is 
the 
> equivalent to an answer so I'm fully justified in telling lies. Ask 
> me no questions and I'll tell you no loes.
> 
> >2. Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct,"
> 
> What misconduct? 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > Rebecca wrote:
> > 
> > >1.  Is it true that "in each of the stories" evil would not be 
> defeated
> > >unless Harry broke school rules and/or told lies?
> > >
> > >2.  Does Dumbledore really "overlook Harry's misconduct," as 
> charged?
> > >
> > >My personal response would be "no" to both questions.
> > 
> > 1.  I can't think that Harry broke any school rules to defeat V 
in 
> GoF, 
> > unless you count the blatant cheating, encouraged by authority 
> figures, 
> > throughout the tournament.  But that was not directly connected 
> with V, and 
> > was part of the increasing moral complexity of Harry's world.
> > 
> > 2.  Dumbledore knows what to overlook and when.  For instance, I 
> think he 
> > knows perfectly well that some of the Slytherins are not joining 
in 
> the 
> > toast to Cedric Diggory in the leaving feast, but also knows this 
> is not the 
> > time for a confrontation.
> > 
> > My personal response to the points raised in the article is "so 
> what?"  Show 
> > me a classic of children's (or any other) literature where our 
hero 
> or 
> > heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all the decisions, 
> strict 
> > adherence to rules and regulations and never, ever conceals 
> anything and 
> > I'll show you a *very* dull book.
> > 
> > Even Little Women (one of the preachiest books ever written - and 
> still 
> > actually read) contains this immortal exchange:
> > Amy: I hate unladylike behaviour.
> > Jo: And I hate affected, niminy-piminy chits!
> > Way to go, Jo.
> > 
> > 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
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> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
> http://www.hotmail.com.




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 19 04:07:37 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 04:07:37 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9bl60b+8u0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bloa9+k9qq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17105

I wanted to comment on the Snape as a teacher thread and am probably 
covering territory that's already been trampled. (Why do I always 
seem to apologise at the start of each message?)

I do no think Snape's a bad teacher. Could improve his teaching 
methods? Yes. Is a bad teacher? No. Hermione obviously learns in his 
class (i.e. the Polyjuice potion). This may be largely just because 
she is such a great student but...Harry and Ron certainly don't seem 
to learn anything in Potions, and that's largely their own faults 
("You think we've nothing better to do in potions than listen to 
Snape.)

The "I see no difference" comment though is unforgivable. It's the 
one think I can't forgive him of, but then I love Hermione far to 
much...

Do you think one reason Snape is so hard on his students is because 
he sees in them the same weaknesses that lead him to become a DE and 
therefore wants them them to find strength in themselves and not turn 
out as he. Then there's Draco....

Scott





From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 04:33:31 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:33:31 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Harry do for YOU?
Message-ID: <28.1433ba72.280fc49b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17106

Well, I think that I love HP because I can relate to the characters. Like 
Moaning Myrtle, i can be depressing and a total pessimist, and I can be 
frustrated just like any of the other characters. JKR just writes them so 
realistically! I feel like i'm there with the students, and my life hasn't 
always been the greatest, so I love being able to escape into something that 
I can never have. The problems are real, yet not at the same time. It's 
really hard for me to explain, but that's the best I can do. 
Wheeee!~
Wicky

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr 19 05:37:54 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:37:54 -0000
Subject: DADA- Exams in May
Message-ID: <9bltji+tdqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17107

Dear Pupils!

Due to a time- problem, the summer- holidays have been extendet 
to an unusual length this summer ;-)
Hogwarts staff has therefore decided to put you through occasional
Exams to keep you on the subject.
The first Exam is the  'Defence against the dark Arts' and will take 
place
in the first week of May. It will be posted on the main board.
Your computers will be hexed with a *No-cheating Charm*
You are advised to keep your books under your desks during the exams.
Please send your answers off-list, for individual answers :-)

The examination- results will be passed on to the coming DADA-Teacher, 
so that 
he knows which subjects are to be repeated when school begins at the 
end of 
summer ( whenever that is (LOL))

I hope you use your time for revising
Enjoy your extended holidays, but look forward to the start of term
Yours
Minerva Mc. Gonagall
(Mecki)







From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 06:35:33 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:35:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 1 of 3
Message-ID: <9bm0vl+oom0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17108

"To Harry Potter ? the boy who lived!"

Harry Potter is, when we first meet him, an 11 year old boy who has 
not, so far, had a pleasant life.  He is a member of a mythical class 
of beings ? the mistreated, orphaned boy who finds out that he, 
contrary to all his expectations, is a magical person.

Harry Potter was born on July 31, 1980, and lived happily with his 
parents, James and Lily Potter, in Godric's Hollow until he was a 
little over a year old.  Then, as we all know, the evil wizard 
Voldemort kills Harry's parents on Halloween night in 1981.  
Voldemort tries to kill Harry, but somehow baby Harry instead not 
only survives but destroys Voldemort's power.  He is not only the Boy 
Who Lived, but also in some ways another type of mythical being, the 
Boy Savior.

The child Harry is unaware of his history.  Now an orphan, he lives 
with the Dursleys, an aunt and uncle who, IMHO, JKR has invented with 
a nod in Roald Dahl's direction.  They are stupid, nasty, unloving, 
bigoted people.  They are as un-magical as can be ? Minerva 
McGonagall remarks to Dumbledore that "You couldn't find two people 
who are less like us."  

The Dursleys are somewhat successful at beating Harry down; he is 
lonely, scared, has somewhat low self-esteem and is very insecure, 
but he still retains a core of strength, sanity and dignity.  He 
talks back to his aunt and uncle at times, but not in the snotty way 
that children sometimes talk back to their parents ? rather, he talks 
back to the Dursleys to defend his dignity.  Unlike many victimized 
people, he doesn't blame himself for the supposed shortcomings he is 
constantly reminded of.  Harry realizes that it is the Dursleys who 
are jerks, not him. This would be fairly unbelievable outside the 
world of fiction ? in real life, abused children do not often emerge 
from 10 years of neglect, verbal abuse and loneliness as well-
adjusted as Harry is.  However, his parent's love for his first 1 ? 
years, as well as the unseen magical forces which watch over him, 
seem to have served to preserve not only Harry's physical but also 
his mental and spiritual well-being.

Physically, Harry Potter is small and skinny, with a thin face and 
knobbly knees.  He has a scar on his forehead in the shape of a bolt 
of lightning, a relic of his encounter with Voldemort.  His other 
most prominent physical characteristics are distinctly inherited from 
his parents: He has untidy black hair like his father and bright 
green eyes like his mother.  He wears broken glasses, taped together, 
and baggy old clothes inherited from his fat cousin, Dudley.

Although Harry Potter is, in the muggle world, nothing and nobody, he 
is a celebrity in the wizarding world ? but for something he did as a 
baby which he doesn't remember.  (It is interesting to note that he 
has achieved a similar sort of infamy in the "real" world, where he 
is a publishing phenomenon.) Yet Harry himself does not relate to his 
fame:

"What's that?"said one of the twins suddenly, pointing at Harry's 
lightning scar.
"Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you ??"
"He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" he added to Harry.
"What?" said Harry.
"*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
"Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 06:36:33 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:36:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 2 of 3
Message-ID: <9bm11h+m87j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17109

Who is Harry as a person?  What is he like?  And how has he changed 
and grown in the course of the four years we have known him?  How 
does his history affect his growth and development?

I found these questions very difficult to answer, so I asked a few 
friends for opinions.  One said he thought Harry was brave, modest, 
practical, smart (but not book-smart like Hermione), reckless, and 
somewhat irresponsible.  This friend thinks that Harry is "a 
scoundrel in the making, a future Han Solo but without the 
arrogance."  Another friend, who is a big fan of the HP books, does 
not like Harry very much as a person.  She finds him to be sullen and 
insecure, and too emotionally reactive.  This friend (who is working 
on her Ph.D. in comparative literature) thinks that Harry's 
insecurity makes him punish people for what he feels, for example, in 
GoF when Ron and Harry have their big fight, Harry's reaction to 
Ron's jealous is venomous when (she feels) he should cut Ron some 
slack.  She feels that Harry's reaction to Ron's jealousy and 
disloyalty is too harsh, considering what Ron has to put up with.  
Personally, I agree that Harry is often insecure, but I see that as 
more normal for a teenage boy, especially one who has had the 
upbringing that Harry has had, and I rather like him.  I also feel 
sorry for him ? not only was he brought up by the horrible Dursleys, 
but he continually has to put up with an onslaught of problems not of 
his own making ? evil wizards, sadistic teachers, other people's high 
expectations, snakes, rumors, his own unremembered history, his 
innate talent at Quidditch (not really a problem, but it does make 
others jealous), bullies, pretty girls, too much homework, etc.  
Harry is somewhat naive ? but probably no more than anyone else his 
age.  He gets completely fooled by the intentions of one character 
per book ? Snape, young Tom Riddle, Sirius Black, & Moody, 
respectively ? but for the most part those characters have fooled 
everyone else, too.

There are some things about Harry's personality which are less 
controversial ? he is brave, quick-thinking in a crisis, and modest.  
His greatest love and talent is the sport of Quidditch.  His magical 
skills are continually challenged and he continually lives up to that 
challenge.  In each of the four books so far, both his predicament 
and his magical abilities get more complicated and difficult during 
the final encounter.  In SS/PS, he faces only a weak shadow of 
Voldemort, and his inefficient servant Quirrell.  Harry does not do 
much fighting or any magic; Quirrell's hands burn when he touches 
Harry because of the "old magic" that has protected him since he was 
a baby.  He basically just hangs on until Dumbledore rescues him.  In 
CoS, he fights the basilisk, with the help of Fawkes and Godric 
Gryffindor's sword.  He doesn't use magic, except (presumably) 
subconsciously to call Fawkes ? he fights the Basilisk with the sword 
and "kills" the 16-year old Tom Riddle with the Basilisk's fang.  In 
PoA, he faces the dementors ? powerful servants of the Dark Lord ? 
and he uses magic to create the Patronus which beats them.  In GoF, 
his magical skills have become strong enough to win the Triwizard 
Tournament, and to escape from a powerful, reincarnated Voldemort.

One other thing about Harry ? he has a hard time trusting people, 
especially adults.  It isn't until PoA that he really starts trusting 
Dumbledore and telling him things.  In GoF, he develops a much more 
trusting relationship with Sirius, as well.  For the most part, he 
only really trusts Ron and Hermione.


Next topic ? Harry's important relationships.

The first person who befriends Harry is Hagrid, but Harry's closest 
friend is Ron Weasley.  Their relationship is best summed up, IMO, in 
the excellent article by Joan Acocella in the July 31, 2000 
(appropriate date!) issue of The New Yorker:

"...the scene, in "The Sorcerer's Stone,: where Harry and Ron meet 
for the first time, on the train that is taking them, as entering 
students, to Hogwarts.  Each is handicapped.  Harry, though he is 
famous throughout the wizard world (because, as an infant, he 
repelled Voldemort's attack), and though he has a pile of gold left 
to him by his parents, is without family and utterly ignorant of 
wizardry.  Ron comes from a  long line of wizards, and he has family 
galore, but that is his problem: five older brothers, no position.  
He is always dressed in hand-me-downs; his mother always forgets what 
kind of sandwich he likes; he has no spending money.  Together, in 
the train compartment, the two boys comfort and help each other.  
Harry shares the wizard candies he buys from the vender (he can 
afford them); Ron explains the wizard trading cards that come with 
the candies (he understands them).  Harry gives Ron prestige; Ron 
gives Harry a sense of belonging.  All this is done very Englishly, 
very subtly, in small gestures, but in the end each boy, because of 
the other, arrives at Hogwarts slightly better armed against the 
harshness of the world."

(Acocella, BTW, is a Harry/Ginny Shipper.)

Harry's friendship with Ron provides him with a sense of family, too, 
as the Weasleys, by the time we get to GoF, have practically adopted 
Harry.




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 06:37:57 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:37:57 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
Message-ID: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17110

Obviously, there is a lot more I could say about Harry's friendships 
and other relationships, but this is already too long and several 
days late, so I'll just add something about his rival, Draco Malfoy.  
Draco is, of course, a Nasty Little Nazi and the bane of Harry's 
existence.  However, if anyone is keeping score, I think that Harry 
usually bests Draco.  There is at least one scene in each book where 
Draco gets majorly humiliated by Harry.  For example, in PS/SS, the 
scene where Harry receives the Nimbus 2000 and Draco complains to 
Flitwick.  In GoF, there is the ferret incident, and scene on the 
train where Harry, Hermione, Ron, Fred and George all put hexes on 
Malfoy & his goons.  In PoA, Slytherin loses the Quidditch Cup.  I'm 
sure there's a major defeat for Draco Malfoy in CoS, too, but I'm too 
sleepy to find it so I'll just add a few questions and end here.

Questions

1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a 
million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did 
he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it 
about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill 
Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that 
only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or 
that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS 
IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)

3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they 
feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset 
when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or 
charmed) by Dumbledore?

5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who 
will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or 
someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm sure 
the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock 
yourselves out.

6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and 
the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's 
personality?

7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows how 
to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not 
only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born 
Quidditch superstar?


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 10:36:40 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:36:40 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's *dead* relatives
Message-ID: <LAW2-F37sclWXSZ3Zs30000862c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17111

Mecki wrote:
>
>Dumbledore said, the Dursleys were Harrys only *living* relatives. I
>believe, knowing JKR's tendancy to give us hints with such sentances,
>that there will probably be some *dead*, so Ghost - relatives Harry
>will  meet in furture books. We don't know why some people turn out to
>be ghosts or if James and Lilly ever will , but if Harry has a long
>line of magic on his father's side, he surely has some ghost-relatives
>that may be able to help him on future tasks.
>Am I making any sense?
>Just a thought, any other opinion?
>Mecki
>
Yes, perfect sense.  JKR did give a clue in an interview that whether people 
become ghosts has to do with whether they were happy in life.  The ones we 
know best - Moaning Myrtle and Nearly Headless Nick - don't seem very happy 
bunnies.  There's also Prof. Binns, but he seems to have barely noticed that 
he is dead.  I'm sure Harry's parents were happy people generally, so I 
can't see their coming back as ghosts.  I think it would be a kind of 
cop-out if they did - he wouldn't have really lost them in the same way.

The only time they've appeared has been due to magic devices or spells - 
mirror of Erised, V's wand and Harry's patronus.  I think he will have 
further contact of this kind.  Do you think there exist any portraits of 
them?  I could see some other relatives or ancestors coming back as ghosts 
though.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 19 07:39:07 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:39:07 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 2 of 3
In-Reply-To: <9bm11h+m87j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bm4mr+ehm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17112

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Who is Harry as a person?  What is he like?  And how has he changed 
> and grown in the course of the four years we have known him?  How 
> does his history affect his growth and development?
> 
I've been looking forward to Harry Week, as he remains my favourite 
character, and loved this summary.  Thank you!  I just wanted to add 
a little on the various things he has had to face during the first 
four books.

In PS/SS you say

In SS/PS, he faces only a weak shadow of 
> Voldemort, and his inefficient servant Quirrell.  Harry does not do 
> much fighting or any magic; Quirrell's hands burn when he touches 
> Harry because of the "old magic" that has protected him since he 
was 
> a baby.  He basically just hangs on until Dumbledore rescues him.  

A lot is revealed about Harry's character in these scenes.  Firstly, 
he doesn't feel able to put his trust in any of the adult figures 
apart from Dumbledore - particularly refusing to explain to Professor 
McGonagall what is going on.
He has his priorities right - when Hermione is fretting about being 
expelled, he is the one to point out that it doesn't matter if 
Voldemort reaches power again by finding the Philosopher's Stone.  
This is Harry seeing the bigger picture - he is not confining himself 
to institutional thoughts and rule breaking, and knows what is more 
important. 
Ron and Hermione help him to get through all the tasks set by the 
professors.  He knows his own shortcomings, and knows he wouldn't 
have been able to get as far without them.  In fact, he relies on the 
two of them heavily throughout all four books in one way or the 
other.  Without them, it would be much harder for Harry to get to the 
usual one-on-one confontational scene he usually faces - and he knows 
this, and respects them for it.
The holding onto Quirrel, IMO, shows desperation, courage and above 
all determination.  These latter two qualities I think are integral 
to Harry's character.


> CoS, he fights the basilisk, with the help of Fawkes and Godric 
> Gryffindor's sword.  He doesn't use magic, except (presumably) 
> subconsciously to call Fawkes ? he fights the Basilisk with the 
sword 
> and "kills" the 16-year old Tom Riddle with the Basilisk's fang.  

Other important character strengths are revealed here.  He has a 
sense of urgency - knows that it is important for the school and the 
Weasleys to find Ginny.  He bravely stands up to Tom Riddle, and in 
doing so, proves the strength of his loyalty to Dumbledore and all he 
stands for.  This is in the context of a great deal of self-doubt.  
At the time, he is under the impression that the hat wanted to put 
him into Slytherin.  As Dumbledore points out, it is the choices one 
makes which help form character and the path to be taken.  Harry is 
adamant that he is not going to go that way, and Fawkes and the sword 
are physical manifestations of the choices he is making.

In 
> PoA, he faces the dementors ? powerful servants of the Dark Lord ? 
> and he uses magic to create the Patronus which beats them.  
In GoF, 
> his magical skills have become strong enough to win the Triwizard 
> Tournament, and to escape from a powerful, reincarnated Voldemort.

In both these books, what struck me most about Harry was that the 
things he found hardest to deal with, were the things which helped 
save him in the end.  For instance, in PoA, he has an extremely 
difficult time creating his patronus.  He finds himself sucked into 
the scene of his parents' deaths, and wants to hear their voices, 
despite the fact that they are fearful and on the point of dying.  
The misery he feels is compounded by the fact that he has been 
brought up by the Dursleys.  It centres on family - his loving 
parents have been taken away from him, and he is left with people who 
seem to hate him.  I have always felt that one of the reasons Harry 
was able to summon a patronus at the end of PoA, was because the 
issues affecting him the most at the crucial time centred on family.  
He is truly happy, because he thinks that he has a godfather/guardian 
to live with - someone endorsed by his parents - their best friend.  
And one of the most important things about Harry is the fact that he 
has never experienced a loving family environment before (unless you 
can count OBHWF).

In GoF, Harry has huge problems getting to grips with the summoning 
charm.  He enlists the aid of Hermione - he is usually not too proud 
to ask for help, and relies on Hermione a great deal for aid of this 
kind.
It is this which helps him get away from Voldemort at the end of the 
book.  
Again, I think that this shows that Harry does not give up.  He is 
determined to beat his weaknesses - when he knows how crucial it is 
for him to do so.

To me, he is also a very moral character. He is not averse to 
breaking a few rules - this has been discussed at length recently - 
but it is (almost) always in order to do the right thing.  It is also 
within the context of school.  However, he always seem to have an 
instinctive grasp of the right and wrongs of the situation and acts 
upon it accordingly.

Catherine







From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr 19 08:08:03 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:08:03 -0000
Subject: HP- Character Sketch
Message-ID: <9bm6d3+oq6l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17113

Hey joywitch- great summary!!

I haven't tried to follow previous threads on your questions, because 
I thought it would be nice to have a "new" discussion.
Here are my answers:

to 1) V. killed James and wanted to kill Harry because they are true 
descendants of Godric Griffindor, who was the most powerful fiend of 
Salazaar Slytherin and his powers were given on to the Potters, so V. 
fears their magical strength.
Although V. has killed Muggles and Mudbloods before he did not intend 
to kill Lilly, because she had nothing to do with the *ancient fight*

to 2) Prof. Trlawny's first prediction was IMHO, the death of the 
Potters with V. downfall and Harry's surviving. Maybe that was the 
warning the Potters recieved?

to 3) I don't believe Harry will die. Good has to win over evil in the 
end, at least in books written for children ( as well as for adults, I 
know ;-) ) Harrys' death would be defeat.

to 4) I think the Dursleys could not put Harry in the orthanage 
without people talking about it ( their worst fear). For the same 
reason they wanted to keep Harry as far away from magic as possible
I don't believe they were threatened by Dumbledore but I think they 
did get a financial reward for their efforts. They can afford all 
these really expensive presents for Dudley. And they wouldn't tell 
Harry, because he could insist the money to be spent on propper 
clothes for him.

to 5) I am a confessing Harry / Ginny shipper mainly because I like 
her developement and would like her crush to develope into real love 
and Harrys respond to that.

to 6) I believe in chosing both sides of life, the learning and the 
fun, with his friends, he can make a developement somewhere in 
between. Ron gives him the fun and games he had missed so long, 
Hermione prevents him from *lifting off* and <teaches> him to still 
take everything seriously enough. For the very same reason I think Ron 
and Hermione are really good for each other too.!!

to 7) I think he got his flying- talent because he needed an ability 
to be proud of, that had nothing to do with what happened when he was 
a baby. This was his very own talent and could not be blamed on his 
being famous. Hs magical ability is developing, so I think JKR needed 
something Harry could be credited on by his classmates right from the 
start (IMHO)

Okay, time for you to start taking my Ideas apart ( or aprove?)- I'll 
enjoy it

Mecki




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 08:43:47 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:43:47 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as teacher/Ambition
References: <9bloa9+k9qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c0c8ac$dad20160$6e2a07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17114

 > The "I see no difference" comment though is unforgivable. It's the
> one think I can't forgive him of, but then I love Hermione far to
> much...

I think we all think that. As much as I like Severus I can't come up with an
excuse for this one sentence - actually I wouldn't dare to repeat the curses
that left my mouth when I read that scene for the first time. But at least
it lead to Hermione's teth being shrunk, something she had wanted for quite
some time.

> Do you think one reason Snape is so hard on his students is because
> he sees in them the same weaknesses that lead him to become a DE and
> therefore wants them them to find strength in themselves and not turn
> out as he. Then there's Draco....
> Scott

Yeah, Draco... I just thought about that yesterday while packing my dumb
electric toothbrushes. Draco is not the natural pick for Severus as
"teacher's pet". He has the ambition, that's something Snape as head of
Slytherin admires naturally, but Draco doesn't want to work for
achievements. If he wants something he uses his fathers reputation, his
place in the Quidditch team is bought, he doesn't even bully people himself
but lets Crabbe and Goyle do the dirty work. And he doesn't seem to be such
a great student, either.

Another crucial point is that he relies heavily on Snape to get others
students in trouble and to keep him out of it. I don't see Severus as a
person who would normally tolerate that well.

BTW, was ever really mentioned that Severus was in Slytherin? I always
assumed that, but what if he had been in Gryffindor? The rivalry between him
and James would be very clear to understand - remember the Quidditch comment
from Sirius in the Shrieking Shack? And because in his house no one liked
him (and he would see this as fault of the Marauders, for sure) and the DE
clearly saw potential in his knowledge of all curses and his intelligence he
turned towards them and became one of them?

Another "Why Snape turned evil" theory, great. If we had 1$ for each of
those we could buy Gringotts.

  ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on.

~Robert Frost


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Thu Apr 19 09:18:36 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:18:36 -0000
Subject: Ambition (Draco and Snape)
In-Reply-To: <005d01c0c8ac$dad20160$6e2a07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9bmahc+ln5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17115

"Dinah" wrote:

 Draco is not the natural pick for Severus as
> "teacher's pet". He has the ambition, that's something Snape as head 
of> Slytherin admires naturally, but Draco doesn't want to work for
> achievements. If he wants something he uses his fathers reputation, 
his> place in the Quidditch team is bought, he doesn't even bully 
people himself > but lets Crabbe and Goyle do the dirty work. And he 
doesn't seem to be such> a great student, either.
> Another crucial point is that he relies heavily on Snape to get 
others> students in trouble and to keep him out of it. I don't see 
Severus as a> person who would normally tolerate that well.

Yes, well observed. I looked through the books again to verify that 
Snape "obviously favours" Draco, as most people say. I must say he 
seems to favour the Slytherins (e.g. Quidditch refereeing) in 
general, but I can?t find any proof that he *especially* favours 
Draco. 

Draco?s getting away with things is usually not due to him being 
favoured particularly by Snape, but to Snape bullying Harry. In other 
words, Snape?s intention is to bully Harry as much as possible, and 
he merely uses the Harry-Draco-relationship to achieve this. He 
"favours" Draco not because he likes him, but because it will make 
Harry feel bad.

Another point is of course the relationship between Snape and Lucius 
Malfoy. We know *suspiciously* little about that so far. I don?t think 
there?s a single scene in any of the books where Snape and Malfoy sen. 
actually meet face to face and talk to each other.

Does Lucius know Snape was Dumbledore?s spy? Does he trust him at all? 
Does he see Snape as a secret ally or as an enemy? Is he happy with 
Draco being "tutored" by Snape in Slytherin or does he mind?

If we knew more about this, we might see the Draco-Snape-relationship 
explained, too.

Dinah continues:

> BTW, was ever really mentioned that Severus was in Slytherin? I 
always assumed that, but what if he had been in Gryffindor? The 
rivalry between him > and James would be very clear to understand - 
And because in his house no one liked him (and he would see this as 
fault of the Marauders, for sure) and the DE
> clearly saw potential in his knowledge of all curses and his 
intelligence he turned towards them and became one of them?>

I?m quite sure Snape was a Slytherin. In GoF, Sirius (in the 
mountainside cave) says something like: "He always hung around with 
his gang of Slytherins" (paraphrase). I think  Snape does identify 
with Slytherin. I mean, there?s not much else that would ever make 
him go as far as express his personal feelings by wearing *green* 
robes for a day ;-). I also believe we can rely on the sorting hat not 
to put any student in a house where he fits in so badly he has to make 
friends somewhere else.

Part of my personal Snape theory is that he came from an all-Slytherin 
family background, so the one fundamental choice he had to make in his 
life was *not* becoming a DE (having been a harmless Gryffindor 
before) but it was turning to the *good* side at the height of 
Voldemort?s power.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 19 09:40:25 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:40:25 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher/Ambition
In-Reply-To: <005d01c0c8ac$dad20160$6e2a07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9bmbq9+hvpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17116

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote:
> Yeah, Draco... I just thought about that yesterday while packing my 
dumb
> electric toothbrushes. Draco is not the natural pick for Severus as
> "teacher's pet". He has the ambition, that's something Snape as 
head of
> Slytherin admires naturally, but Draco doesn't want to work for
> achievements. If he wants something he uses his fathers reputation, 
his
> place in the Quidditch team is bought, he doesn't even bully people 
himself
> but lets Crabbe and Goyle do the dirty work. And he doesn't seem to 
be such
> a great student, either.
> 
> Another crucial point is that he relies heavily on Snape to get 
others
> students in trouble and to keep him out of it. I don't see Severus 
as a
> person who would normally tolerate that well.

I've been thinking about Draco and Snape as well.  I do think that 
Snape cuts the Slytherins some slack, mainly to annoy the Gryffindors 
(Telling Ron and Harry to help Draco in potions class is one such 
example).  However, I don't think the relationship is as clear cut as 
that.  The Slytherins do show respect and a certain amount of fear in 
front of Snape - they are careful never to do something directly in 
front of him.  For example, when Draco uses the fact that Snape's 
back is turned to flash his "Potter Stinks" badge.  There is also the 
scene where he is so nasty to Hermione (BTW, I'm glad I mentioned 
that - it's generated a lot of response!).  Snape turns to Draco and 
says "Explain."  Draco doesn't want to get into trouble and lies.  
Snape believes him, probably because he doesn't want to punish the 
Slytherins - but there is still the fact that Draco appreciates the 
fact that he has to be careful about what he says.
Fair in this scene?  No - he sides with his house.  But I don't think 
that it is as black and white as it seems.  (apart for the comment to 
Hermione.)

Catherine




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 10:54:05 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:54:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c83c$d2498380$4a4034d1@computer>
Message-ID: <9bmg4d+8so2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17117

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan Hopkins" <mhopkins at t...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> My first time responding. I was just thinking about the discussion 
on Lupin's patronus (I just finished my third read of PoA two nights 
ago so my thoughts on it are still pretty fresh) and I think I have a 
pretty good idea what it is. First of all, Lupin's boggart turns into 
a full moon, and later on his patronus is described, as Kristin noted 
previously:
> 
> >The only mention about Lupin's 
> >patronus is on pg.85 of PoA:
> 
> >"And Professor Lupin stepped over you, and walked toward the 
> >dementor, and pulled out his wand," said Hermione,"and he 
said, 'None 
> >of us is hiding Sirius Black under our cloaks. Go.' But the 
dementor 
> >didn't move, so Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot 
> >out of his wand at it, and it turned around and sort of glided 
> >away..."
> 
> So therefore, as a result of his patronus being silvery and gliding 
away, my best assumption, or guess, is that his patronus is a bunch 
of clouds. It makes sense. The clouds seem to be his only protection 
from the full moon and therefore are a very good thing (or happy 
thought) for him!
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Megan

As I understand the text, it's the Dementor who turned around and 
glided away, not the patronus. 

By the way, is it certain that a patronus always has some kind of 
shape? Is it always something? Couldn't it be just silvery light with 
no particular shape?

Naama
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 10:51:52 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:51:52 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher/Ambition
References: <9bmbq9+hvpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c0c8be$bf7aa040$ed2a07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17118

> (apart for the comment to > Hermione.)>
> Catherine

Yes, the "I see no difference" comment. I talked with my mother about it a
few minutes ago. She hasn't read GoF yet and I explained the situation to
her and was really surprised. She doesn't think it's unforgivable. She
thinks it's just part of his nasty humor and not that cruel since Hermione
isn't going to die if she comes an hour later to the Infirmary and has to
sit through potions. She pointedly referred to two of my teachers.
I have to confess: That's something they could've said, probably I've gotten
similar comments from then - I try to forget such occasions as fast as
possible.

I think what upsets me about it is not that he comments nastily on her looks
but that she has been obviously affected by a hex and this is one of the
more unforgivable rules to break - but then the students (esp. Slytherins
and Draco) curse each other occasionally in arguments so why am I surprised
he just goes over it as if nothing happened?

Dinah


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 19 12:12:40 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:12:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco as student/teacher's pet
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D95@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17119

Dinah wrote:
> Draco is not the natural pick for Severus as
> "teacher's pet". He has the ambition, that's something Snape 
> as head of
> Slytherin admires naturally, but Draco doesn't want to work for
> achievements. If he wants something he uses his fathers 
> reputation, his
> place in the Quidditch team is bought, he doesn't even bully 
> people himself
> but lets Crabbe and Goyle do the dirty work. And he doesn't 
> seem to be such
> a great student, either.
> 
> Another crucial point is that he relies heavily on Snape to get others
> students in trouble and to keep him out of it. I don't see 
> Severus as a
> person who would normally tolerate that well.

While a lot of what Dinah says, about Draco not "work[ing] for achievements"
and not seeming to be a rgeat student are perfectly reasonable conjectures
based on canon, these things are not explicitly stated in canon. In other
words, it's just as likely that when Lucius Malfoy was criticising Draco's
marks in the begining of CoS, he was saying that he expected Draco to be at
the top of the class - number one - but Hermione was, and therefore he was
merely number two, or something close to it. If Lucius is the type who
thinks that anything less than number one is meaningless and useless, then
he could slam Draco for having lousy marks when the only problem with them
is that they're not better than Muggle-born Hermione. Otherwise, why would
he specifically criticise Draco for being beaten by Hermione, instead of
saying something like "And so many mudbloods got better marks than you...."
His place on the quidditch team *might* have been bought because of age, but
not skill. In other words, Slytherin might have dumped their then-current
seeker to have Draco on the team, but he certainly seems to be doing quite
well, winning three games in second and third year (in other words, beating
everyone but Harry, who we all agree is exceptional)
I haven't seen him relying on Snape to keep himself out of trouble - if he
really could do that, then Snape would've at least tried a way to get Draco
out of that forebidden forrest trip back during first year.



From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 00:13:14 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:13:14 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
Message-ID: <LAW2-F146t3HvoFOAmE00006708@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17120

Lyda wrote:
<huge snip>

>Ever seen the movie "Stand and Deliver"? Escalante is kind of a cross
>between Snape and Lupin, no? He makes those kids work, he doesn't let
>them off easy, and he often makes quiet but rather "waspish" remarks,
>like Snape. However, he also rewards and encourages them, like Lupin.

<quite big snip>

I really promised myself I wasn't going to write more on Snape's teaching 
abilities (or lack thereof) as I felt Lea put the issue to bed as far as I'm 
concerned.  But I think this bit helps clarify my point.  I don't have a 
problem with his cold, demanding persona.  As several have pointed out, and 
as the above demonstrates, you don't have to be a warm, wonderful human 
being, or a saint, to be a good teacher.  Neither, I agree, do you have to 
see yourself as an all-round mentor, or aim to make the students feel good.  
Snape *could* be a good teacher, if he'd just stop
1) bullying,
2) playing favourites and
3) picking on people!
Knowing your stuff is not enough.  But I'm in danger of getting way OT here, 
so I'm not saying any more on Snape, the teacher.

I just like JKR's shrewd observation of teaching in the books.  I am sure I 
have been taught by Professor Binns, who didn't let his own death stand in 
the way of boring the pants off everybody, or Professor Sprout, who in her 
unshowy way is an excellent teacher, or Lupin  - inspiring - or Lockhart- 
precisely "useless" - or Hagrid - potentially good, but nervous.  Or even 
Professor Grubbly-Plank - call me a big kid, but the simple sentence "My 
name is Grubbly-Plank" had me rolling on the floor - don't these 
out-of-the-blue substitute teachers *always* have names guaranteed to reduce 
any class to fits of giggles :) ?


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From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Apr 19 12:36:52 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:36:52 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
In-Reply-To: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bmm54+87kt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17121

Nice character sketch, Joywitch!  I've been eager to read it and to 
discuss Harry to my heart's content.  He is, without a doubt, my 
favorite character.  I may get smeared here as I respond, because I 
don't have many negative things to say about Harry, but here goes :-).
> 
> Questions
> 
> 1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a 
> million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did 
> he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

I'm not sure how well I can answer that one.  I think JKR has 
deliberately left this a mystery to be solved later.  We don't know 
what Harry's parents were doing (Aurors?  Gryffindor heirs?) to be 
targets of Voldie in the first place.  Harry is obviously connected 
to that.  Of course, Voldie is a cold blooded killer walking into the 
Potters' home, so murdering a baby isn't so far fetched for him 
anyway.  Somehow Harry is a major threat to Voldie - I think Voldie 
knows that Harry's powers will rival his, and they already do, in a 
way.  Other than Dumbledore, I believe that Harry is now the one 
wizard (or second) who puts fear into Lord Voldemort.
> 
> 
> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

The thought of Harry dying in book 7 is almost unbearable to me.  I 
am still angry at C.S. Lewis for having Lucy, Edmund and Peter die 
in "The Last Battle" (last of the Narnia books) just to go on to 
heaven.  I cannot accept that as a happy ending.  I did read JKR say 
in an interview "How do you know Harry will survive?" (something like 
that), and it just broke my heart.

If Harry dies, what is the point of the noble crusade he has pursued 
for good and against evil Voldemort?  I feel that Harry has been 
through enough in his young life.  We're not in a Hardy novel here, 
where bad karma and bad luck reign, and considering that millions of 
children do read these books, it would be monumentally upsetting.

I want Harry to win.   
> 
> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they 
> feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even 
upset 
> when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or 
> charmed) by Dumbledore?

I don't think the Dursleys had a choice.  Of course, we have no idea 
what was written in the letter left by Dumbledore.  I'd love to see 
what he wrote.  I think that we are going to be surprised at who the 
Dursleys really are - are really will be.  The nasty, narrow-minded, 
unimaginative Muggle family we so love to hate will not, IMO, be the 
same family by book 7.  I still think Petunia is a witch, BTW.

I have also read (on this site) speculations about the Dursleys' 
contact with Dumbledore. I like the idea that they have maybe spoken 
to him more often than we think.  We know they have had several 
encoutners with the wizard world in the last 4 books - Hagrid, 
dealing with the deflation of Aunt Marge, and then the Weasleys.  
There certainly could have been more.
> 
> 5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who 
> will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, 
or 
> someone else?  

Ginny - please, Ginny!  She has been nothing but sweet to Harry.  She 
defends him in CoS, brings him a card in PoA, as well as has a laugh 
with him at Percy's expense, and shows herself to be a decent person 
in GoF when she has the chance to go to the Yule Ball with Harry but 
turns him down because Neville asked her first.  

As for Hermione, she and Harry work too well as friends - more on her 
in a bit.

Cho is out of the question.  I've mentioned this before, but how can 
Harry possibly date the girl whose boyfriend was murdered at his side?
> 
> 6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and 
> the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's 
> personality?

Ron and Hermione are not only loyal to Harry, but they serve an 
excellent purpose in the books.  Ron, as we all know, is the bearer 
of information about the wizard world.  Hermione is the brain who 
helps us as well as Harry learn more about magic.

Hermione is a lot more than just bookish, IMO.  She is strong and 
outspoken - how many 13 year olds would storm out of a classroom 
because they do not believe in their teacher?  Her S.P.E.W. campaign 
is a noble one (even though she drives the elves crazy).  Hermione is 
not afraid to be an individual and holds her head high when many of 
us would be humiliated, like in GoF when she doesn't let Rita 
Skeeter's scathing articles get to her.  She is an excellent friend 
and support system for Harry, but not girlfriend material (for him).
> 
> 7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows 
how 
> to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
> something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is 
not 
> only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-
born 
> Quidditch superstar?

By Harry being great at Quidditch, he is able to fit into a society 
that sees him as an outsider (no one else has been through what he's 
been through, he grew up with Muggles, etc.).  Everyone loves 
athletes, and it is easy for everyone to accept Harry when he is good 
at something as beloved as Quidditch is.

I also think Harry is a powerful wizard in the making.  Flying is 
just another thing that comes easily to him.  He has a natural 
curiosity about things and a desire to prove himself (the Sorting Hat 
was right on) that keeps him going all the time.


That should be more than enough for now - hope I made sense.  I can't 
wait to read other responses!  Now I must go teach.

--jenny from ravenclaw***********************************************







From hallieu at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 12:47:17 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:47:17 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dementors
Message-ID: <F227NKBqujsclWXSZ3Z00000ad4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17122

Why do the Dementors affect Harry so badly?  Well, in PoA, someone (I think 
Lupin, but I'm not referring to the book, so don't shoot me) tells Harry 
that the reason he is affected so badly by the Dementors is because he has 
such bad things in his past.  Lets face it - he witnessed the death of his 
parents.  Admittedly, he was only a baby, but I think the Dementors have the 
capacity to drudge up memories that have long since been assigned to the 
subconcious.  So, why is Harry so badly affected?  Simply because he is the 
only person who actually saw his parents die.
Hallie


>From: booleanfox at yahoo.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dementors
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:31:56 -0000
>
>Can anyone please help??
>My dear other half has been
>re-reading PoA and has come up
>against a major problem which may be
>spoiling his enjoyment of it :(
>Namely, the Dementors (no, not their
>existence, that's upsetting him,
>that's pretty universal...) - why do
>they affect Harry so badly that he
>passes out every time they come near?
>They upset and frighten everyone, but
>it's only Harry who is so disturbed.
>I'm sure that this must have been
>discussed in the past but I couldn't
>find anything in the search and my
>crappy TV email makes searching v.
>difficult - so if anyone can point me
>to the past posts,   I'd be v
>grateful...
>

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 17 23:25:52 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:25:52 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Toasting Cedric
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110AOeIiGXix40000b8e0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17123

Heidi wrote:
>Canon says that everyone did stand when Dumbledore toasted Diggory, even 
>the
>slytherins. What some of the slytherins did *not* do was toast Harry.

Quite right, my mistake.  But the point stands.

> > My personal response to the points raised in the article is
> > "so what?"  Show
> > me a classic of children's (or any other) literature where
> > our hero or
> > heroine wins out by trusting adults to make all the decisions, strict
> > adherence to rules and regulations and never, ever conceals
> > anything and
> > I'll show you a *very* dull book.
>Now I'm verging offtopic, and if anyone wants to discuss Children's Books
>From The Mid 1900's, please join me on HP-OT-Chatter...I've been rereading
>old Bobbsey Twins books recently, and oh my goodness, those children in the
>first round of books (I believe they are vintage 1900, and a description 
>can
>be found at http://pw2.netcom.com/~drmike99/bobbsey.html) trusted the 
>adults
>to make all the decisions, but even the good kids - Nan and Bert, the older
>twins, especially, didn't have strict adherence to the rules if asking to 
>go
>outside the bounds was beneficial (plus, they were really racist, but it 
>was
>1900, so what can you do?). And compared to most any book published these
>days, they really were *very* dull books.

Quite :)

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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:06:01 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:06:01 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F9L4VKw8SffVLC0000b8bc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bmnrp+hag5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> >I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near?
> >Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who 
subjects
> >himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?
> 
> Good question, to which I don't have any answers, just a slight 
nitpick.  
> It's actually a boggart in the training sessions, so I imagine it 
affects 
> only Harry in a Dementor-like way.  

To nitpick the nitpick - but when the boggart turns to a Dementor for 
Harry's benefit, it is a Dementor and should affect Lupin as such. If 
you recall from the overcome-your-worst-fear lesson, everybody could 
see and be affected by what the boggart turned into (the banshee, for 
instance, gave Harry the creeps, IIRC).

Naama




From hallieu at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:11:10 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:11:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <F97rvoGdKO8FNpyLAPD0000182a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17125

LOL!  Snape as Harry's secret keeper that Harry doesn't know about!  Sorry - 
I find that highly amusing.  Plausible, and amusing.  However, Snape is now 
in contact with V again, is he not?  So in theory, Voldemort could probably 
get the information out of him.  So, (happy, happy thought) maybe Harry will 
be able to leave the Dursleys at some point in the near future - *if* Snape 
reveals the information that is!
Hallie


>From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> > a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom
>and
> > not find him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?
> > Dumbledore would be the obvious answer, but maybe he thought it
> > would be better to chose someone
> > less obvious.  Any suggestions?
>
>
>Snape, obviously.  The last person on earth anyone would suspect and
>the main reason he lets his hatred of Harry have full rein and why he
>tears around protecting him from various potential harms.
>
>Dumbledore learned his lesson after the Potters' deaths.  NEVER pick
>someone known to be close to the intended protected one.
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 13:17:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco as student/teacher's pet
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8D95@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <20010419131747.58852.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17126

> While a lot of what Dinah says, about Draco not "work[ing] for
> achievements" and not seeming to be a rgeat student are perfectly 
> reasonable conjectures based on canon, these things are not 
> explicitly stated in canon. In other
> words, it's just as likely that when Lucius Malfoy was criticising
> Draco's marks in the begining of CoS, he was saying that he 
> expected Draco to be at the top of the class - number one - but 
> Hermione was, and therefore he was
> merely number two, or something close to it. 

I don't think so.  If Draco is Number Two (or for the sake of
argument even in the Top Ten), then there would be references in the
books to Draco in the library or dragging twenty books around like
Hermione does.  There is nothing to indicate that he is anything more
than a regular student.  

> If Lucius is the type who
> thinks that anything less than number one is meaningless and
> useless, then he could slam Draco for having lousy marks when the 
> only problem with them is that they're not better than Muggle-born 
> Hermione. Otherwise, why would
> he specifically criticise Draco for being beaten by Hermione,
> instead of saying something like "And so many mudbloods got better 
> marks than you...."

Any textual backup for this?  Does Lucius anywhere think being Number
One is the be-all and end-all?  He's got a eugenics obsession but
other than that...


> His place on the quidditch team *might* have been bought because of
> age, but not skill. 

It was bought because of first-class, top-of-the-line racing brooms.


> I haven't seen him relying on Snape to keep himself out of trouble
> - if he really could do that, then Snape would've at least tried a 
> way to get Draco
> out of that forebidden forrest trip back during first year.

No teacher would interfere with another teacher's detention
assignment.  Snape wouldn't have tried.

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From hallieu at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:19:46 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:19:46 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Harry do for YOU?
Message-ID: <F258uvbUCwBp9evGMVJ00000a3d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17127

Ron!  (If only there were more Ron's in real life).  Seriously, I love HP 
for a variety of reasons.  JKR's characterisation is spot on, and Harry, Ron 
and Hermione are all flawed in some way, but they work to overcome their 
flaws.  Perhaps it's because I'm a big softie at heart, and I want good to 
triumph over evil.  And believe it or not, HP does teach moral values.
Hallie


>From: sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] What does Harry do for YOU?
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:43:04 -0000
>
>I am a college student writing a paper on why Harry Potter is great
>for adults and kids.  I would like some feedback/personal opinions
>about why you like Harry Potter.  Thanks.
>
>Sabrina
>

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 13:56:34 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:56:34 
Subject: Ron to die? (was:  well, as it's still Ron's week...)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F51R3YXfcxjk9s0000cb5a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17128

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

>Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure
>and innocent who always are the first to die.
>
>Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
>
>Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
>
>Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a unicorn
>tail hair at its core. Ron.

I really, REALLY, hate to say this, but I may have found some back-up for 
this idea.  We know Dumbledore has said that Sybil Trelawney has made *two* 
correct predictions.  I think the "rules of the game" imply that we have the 
other one somewhere in what she has said.  At the Christmas feast in PoA, 
she makes, arguably, two predictions.  One is that Lupin will not be among 
them for long.  Well, that does come true, and I hope that's the one, 
because the other is that the first to rise from their table of 13 will be 
the first to die.  The first to rise is either Harry....or Ron.  Dumbledore 
responds to the first by saying he doesn't think Lupin is in any immediate 
danger, but he doesn't respond to the second.

We also know that JKR has said that a "special friend" of Harry's will die.  
Agreed, he has quite a few of these in one way and another.

I have various reasons for doubting this whole idea, not least that Ron is 
too important a character to die, but please, please post arguments against 
this - I'll agree with them!

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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:34:45 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:34:45 -0000
Subject: Ron to die? (was:  well, as it's still Ron's week...)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F51R3YXfcxjk9s0000cb5a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bmphl+35ai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17129

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> 
> >Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure
> >and innocent who always are the first to die.
> >
> >Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
> >
> >Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
> >
> >Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a 
unicorn
> >tail hair at its core. Ron.
> 
> I really, REALLY, hate to say this, but I may have found some back-
up for 
> this idea.  We know Dumbledore has said that Sybil Trelawney has 
made *two* 
> correct predictions.  I think the "rules of the game" imply that we 
have the 
> other one somewhere in what she has said.  At the Christmas feast 
in PoA, 
> she makes, arguably, two predictions.  One is that Lupin will not 
be among 
> them for long.  Well, that does come true, and I hope that's the 
one, 
> because the other is that the first to rise from their table of 13 
will be 
> the first to die.  The first to rise is either Harry....or Ron.  
Dumbledore 
> responds to the first by saying he doesn't think Lupin is in any 
immediate 
> danger, but he doesn't respond to the second.
> 
> We also know that JKR has said that a "special friend" of Harry's 
will die.  
> Agreed, he has quite a few of these in one way and another.
> 
> I have various reasons for doubting this whole idea, not least that 
Ron is 
> too important a character to die, but please, please post arguments 
against 
> this - I'll agree with them!
> 

OK - I'll oblige <g>. 
I don't agree that "according to the rule of the game" her first true 
prediction is stated. On the contrary, I think it's one of the 
tantalizing references to past occurrunces that JKR loves to sprinkle 
around. 
Besides, Trelawney's second prediction was characterized by a state 
of true trance. It impressed Harry deeply *before* he knew it had 
been fulfilled. The ominous predictions at Christmas dinner were said 
in her normal, "misty" manner. 

Have I managed to reassure you? <g>

Naama




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Apr 19 13:33:22 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:33:22 -0500
Subject: Draco as student/teacher's pet
References: <20010419131747.58852.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADEE922.1CB502C6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17130

Hi --

Yeah ... I'm still here.  :--)

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Heidi said: > While a lot of what Dinah says, about Draco not
> "work[ing] for achievements" and not seeming to be a rgeat student are
> perfectly
> > reasonable conjectures based on canon, these things are not
> > explicitly stated in canon. In other
> > words, it's just as likely that when Lucius Malfoy was criticising
> > Draco's marks in the begining of CoS, he was saying that he
> > expected Draco to be at the top of the class - number one - but
> > Hermione was, and therefore he was
> > merely number two, or something close to it.
>
> Magda: I don't think so.  If Draco is Number Two (or for the sake of
> argument even in the Top Ten), then there would be references in the
> books to Draco in the library or dragging twenty books around like
> Hermione does.  There is nothing to indicate that he is anything more
> than a regular student.

Ah, but he could be naturally very bright.  Maybe if he was seen
dragging lots of books around, he'd be Number One *instead of*
Hermione.  Plenty of very bright people do quite well in academia
without ever seemingly cracking a book.  We also don't see Draco 100% of
the time either.  I don't think lack of references to Draco with books
is at all conclusive.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:57:13 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:57:13 -0000
Subject: Draco brilliant? (was Re: Draco as student/teacher's pet)
In-Reply-To: <3ADEE922.1CB502C6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bmqrp+tj73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17131

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Yeah ... I'm still here.  :--)
> 
Well, your loss is our gain, in this case... <g>

> > Magda: I don't think so.  If Draco is Number Two (or for the sake 
of
> > argument even in the Top Ten), then there would be references in 
the
> > books to Draco in the library or dragging twenty books around like
> > Hermione does.  There is nothing to indicate that he is anything 
more
> > than a regular student.
> 
> Ah, but he could be naturally very bright.  Maybe if he was seen
> dragging lots of books around, he'd be Number One *instead of*
> Hermione.  Plenty of very bright people do quite well in academia
> without ever seemingly cracking a book.  We also don't see Draco 
100% of
> the time either.  I don't think lack of references to Draco with 
books
> is at all conclusive.
> 

There's no evidence against the suggestion that Draco is Number Two, 
but as to him being very bright? We hear a lot of his comments, his 
witticisms, and I have to say that he did not impress me as 
particularly bright. He's not slow or dumb, either - he's medium 
bright, maybe? In any case, his success at insulting and hurting is 
not due to wit, IMO, mostly to lack of compassion and decency. 
Imitating Harry faint? Making fun of Ron's family, of Ron's mother? I 
don't remember any dazzling show of wit - just nastiness. And when 
one of the troika retaliate, he's usually at a loss to answer back. 

Sorry, it sounds like a rant, but I really hate Draco and his like 
(i.e., cowardly, cold-hearted, whiny, lying bullies).

Naama




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Apr 19 09:58:41 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:58:41 EST5EDT
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
Message-ID: <A0157F4281@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17132

I'm rather eager to see how they did/do Bane, Firenze and.....darn, 
forgot the third one's name.  Are they going to be completely CGI 
or has someone been casted for these parts and no one has 
caught wind of who or.....?  Unanswered questions, unanswered 
questions.

I, too, am eagerly awaiting some Snape photos, too.  
Eagerly...impatiently...take your pick.  :-)


Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 14:07:00 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as student/teacher's pet
In-Reply-To: <3ADEE922.1CB502C6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010419140700.54533.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17133

> Ah, but he could be naturally very bright.  Maybe if he was seen
> dragging lots of books around, he'd be Number One *instead of*
> Hermione.  Plenty of very bright people do quite well in academia
> without ever seemingly cracking a book.  We also don't see Draco
> 100% of the time either.  I don't think lack of references to Draco

> with books is at all conclusive.
> 
> Penny

If JKR wanted to show Draco as being a more-than-average student,
then she would have him doing things like dragging books around or
being the library so we would pick up on it.

Are there any hints anywhere that Draco is very bright as opposed to,
say, cunning?

As for lack of references, well no, it isn't conclusive as you say. 
But lack of references doesn't mean anything at all is plausible
either.  Otherwise we should just say "This is how I want this
character to be" and/or "this is how I would have created this
character".  That's fine and perfectly legitimate and we can while
away the next fifteen months exchanging views on this.  Agreeing to
disagree is a good thing.

Heidi responded to me off-list with her views on my views and I wish
she'd post it here so other people can discuss it too.



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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 14:15:27 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <A0157F4281@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <20010419141527.9178.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17134


--- Rachel Bray <bray.262 at osu.edu> wrote:
> I, too, am eagerly awaiting some Snape photos, too.  
> Eagerly...impatiently...take your pick.  :-)

I was so thrilled when I found out that Alan Rickman was playing Snape.
I've always thought that he looks like "my" mental picture of Spape.
And he's a great actor. I saw him in "Dogma" (cool movie by the way)
and I can *easily* imagine him pulling off the oily, sneering, Potions
teacher who hates Harry Potter. In my opinion, this is the best cast
actor. Of course, maybe actually seeing the movie might change my
opinion.

The one who does not fit my mental image is the actors playing
Dumbledore and McGonagall. Dumbledore just looks...too Merliny for my
taste. I can't quite explain it, I hate the hair and the beard. And
while Maggie Smith is a wonderful actress, I just can't imagine her
doing McGonagall. I think that's because I've always had the mental
image of McGonagall looking younger than 70. Eh, well, you win some you
lose some.

~Amber


=====
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 19 14:53:04 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:53:04 -0400
Subject: Draco as Student
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DA5@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17135

At Magda's request, I'm sending a (slightly edited) version of my offlist
reply, for further discussion, unless people are so completely bored with
draco and want to talk about Harry instead, given that it *is* Harry
Fortnight!

Personally (IMHO (in my humble/honest opinion) I think that JKR did as much
to show draco as being ranked high in class marks as she did to show that
dean's a good artist -both topics merit about 2 lines...but only one is
universally accepted...

> I don't think so.  If Draco is Number Two (or for the sake of
> argument even in the Top Ten), then there would be references in the
> books to Draco in the library or dragging twenty books around like
> Hermione does.  There is nothing to indicate that he is anything more
> than a regular student.  

And there's nothing to indicate that he is a regular student either. Someone
is number two, and another eight people are also in the top ten, and there's
no descriptions of any of them. Either way, they're assumptions based on
canon, not pure canon itself, as I said in my first post. They're *all*
reasonable assumptions, but neither is more reasonable than the other. 

> 
> > If Lucius is the type who
> > thinks that anything less than number one is meaningless and
> > useless, then he could slam Draco for having lousy marks when the 
> > only problem with them is that they're not better than Muggle-born 
> > Hermione. Otherwise, why would
> > he specifically criticise Draco for being beaten by Hermione,
> > instead of saying something like "And so many mudbloods got better 
> > marks than you...."
> 
> Any textual backup for this?  Does Lucius anywhere think being Number
> One is the be-all and end-all?  He's got a eugenics obsession but
> other than that...

The closest I can come to textual backup is that Lucius compares Draco's
marks to Hermione's - and she is the top of the class (well, for first year,
at least - it says so in canon (although actually, we don't *know* that she
is in the later years - and in 2nd year, when exams were cancelled AND she
missed a lot of classes, being petrified, she may not've been) but it's a
reasonable conjecture based on what hermione tells harry that Professors
McGonnagal and Flitwick said about her marks). For all we know, she isn't
the top in 3rd or 4th years, for example if Snape is downgrading her in
potions or if she lost points in her average third year because of
Divination. 


> > His place on the quidditch team *might* have been bought because of
> > age, but not skill. 
> 
> It was bought because of first-class, top-of-the-line racing brooms.
We're using *because of* in completely different ways. I'm using it to show
why the brooms were necessary. You're using it to show how the brooms got
him onto the team. 
It's a little confusing & mix-ish
 
> 
> > I haven't seen him relying on Snape to keep himself out of trouble
> > - if he really could do that, then Snape would've at least tried a 
> > way to get Draco
> > out of that forebidden forrest trip back during first year.
> 
> No teacher would interfere with another teacher's detention
> assignment.  Snape wouldn't have tried.
Why wouldn't he? The closest one would come to textual evidence for this
would be Hagrid's statement that Draco had to take the punishment assigned
to him - but it doesn't mean that if Snape wanted to keep him out of the
forebidden forrest, he couldn't've gone to Minnie and asked for Draco to be
reassigned to gutting frogs or something 



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Apr 19 15:06:26 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:06:26 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <20010419141527.9178.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bmuti+90qt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17136

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> > I, too, am eagerly awaiting some Snape photos, too.  
> > Eagerly...impatiently...take your pick.  :-)
> 
> I was so thrilled when I found out that Alan Rickman was playing 
Snape.
> I've always thought that he looks like "my" mental picture of Spape.
> (Snip)

> The one who does not fit my mental image is the actors playing
> Dumbledore and McGonagall. Dumbledore just looks...too Merliny for 
my
> taste. I can't quite explain it, I hate the hair and the beard. And
> while Maggie Smith is a wonderful actress, I just can't imagine her
> doing McGonagall. I think that's because I've always had the mental
> image of McGonagall looking younger than 70. Eh, well, you win some 
you
> lose some.
> 
> ~Amber
> 
> 
> =====
> "Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to 
immediate and violent change at any time..."
> 
> Personally, I like Dame Maggie for McGonagall.  She's got just the 
right "steel on the outside, velvet underneath" look and acting 
ability to be perfect for the role.  

My choice for Dumbledore would have been Sir Derek Jacobi.  He can 
pull off the concern, michieviousness, and "twinkling eyes" bit 
perfectly, IMO.  

About the hair and beard; Dumbledore *is* described as having hair 
and beard long enough to tuck into his belt (PS, p.12).  I miss the 
eyes in the still, but it is in the hospital scene, so maybe that's 
why.  

Just my 2 galleons~

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 15:23:17 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9bmuti+90qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010419152317.27787.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17137


--- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:
> About the hair and beard; Dumbledore *is* described as having hair 
> and beard long enough to tuck into his belt (PS, p.12).  I miss the 
> eyes in the still, but it is in the hospital scene, so maybe that's 
> why.  

<shrug> I know he has long hair and a long beard. But I don't like the
beard that they gave the actor playing Dumbledore, judging from the
trailer and movie stills. I can't really explain why, it just looks
wrong to me. The closest analogy that I can come to the "wrong" feel of
the hair/beard is to compare it to Storm from the X-Men. In the movie,
they gave the actress white hair but, in my opinion, it just looked
wrong. It didn't have the same texture, look, and length as it did in
the comic book. 

And I don't think the actor looks the way I think Dumbledore should
look. But again, my opinion could change once I see the movie. I'm just
judging everything off of appearence and what I happen to know of the
actor (which is virtually nothing). 

<grin> I still can't wait to see the movie, though, I'm just being
nitpicky!

~Amber


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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 15:52:05 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:52:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
In-Reply-To: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010419155205.20002.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17138


--- joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> 1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a 
> million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did 
> he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

Personally, I don't think we know enough yet. I mean, there's still
three more books to go! I think we need to know more about the
different characters pasts before the answer(s) will be clear. And
until then, I can't even begin to guess.

> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

Well, I don't know. I think that JKR will have him live "happily ever
after", because too many people will be upset otherwise. But I'd love
to see how she would kill him off. In fact, I'd laugh if she actually
did. Here's this fictional boy that hordes of people adore, and JKR has
the gall to kill him. 

I wouldn't see Harry's dying as a defeat at all. Dying to save the
world from an unspeakable evil...well, that's something. Granted, it
doesn't change that he's still dead, but I still think that it's
meaningful.

> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they 
> feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset 
> when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or 
> charmed) by Dumbledore?

They might've been charmed. I mean, we don't know anything about this
Fidelius Charm or how it works. I know I'm consistently shocked that
after Harry totally disrupts the Dursley's lives before leaving for
Hogwarts each summer, Vernon is STILL THERE waiting to pick him up at
the end of term. I'm thinking its either magic, or they know something
that we don't. Or they're off their rocker.

We don't know if Petunia was upset when Lily died, but I imagine that
she wasn't. She might've shed tears for appearence sake, but I don't
think she would've been too distraught. Of course, I'm only basing this
off of all that Petunia has said about Lily, none of which has been
positive. For all we know, Petunia could be grieving inside for her
dead sister and hiding it...

> 5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is  Who 
> will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or
> someone else?  

Gah, I am going to probably alienate everyone on this list with my
answer. I don't want Harry to end up with ANYBODY! Nada, no one. In
fact, the idea that he ends up with Cho, Herm, or Gin almost makes me
sick. It just seems too pat, too contrived. "After having defeated
Voldemort, the most evil wizard of the century, what are you going to
do now Harry? I'm going ride off into the sunset with the girl of my
dreams!". Bleh, bleh, bleh! I'd much rather see Harry go riding off
with his group of pals, heading for a tropical island for a
much-deserved vacation. And besides, why do you say "will" in your
question? He doesn't HAVE to fall in love with anyone! He's an
independant person! Same goes with Hermione and Ron! Why must there
*always* be love and romance and cooing in the end?

<calms down> Yes, I know, love is the ultimate emotion. It is "the
thing to be sought for above all else". It makes "life worth living".
It makes life "fun, enjoyable, full". And people in love feel
"complete". Well, I think there are other things that can stand in for
love and marriage that will make people just as, if not more, happy.

Never mind me, I'm quite anti-romantic. I loathe Valentine's Day with a
Passion. I can't watch romantic movies without sniggering and making
rude comments. I'm the bane of my mother's existence, see as she loves
that type of movie. She refuses to see any with me because I, quote,
"ruin the experience".

> 7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows how
> to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
> something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not
> only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born 
> Quidditch superstar?

Innate talent? There are some people who just *know* how to do some
things without having done them before. And you don't necessarily need
to be a prodigy. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with
his past. I'd be very surprised if it is.

As for being both a Voldemort defeater and Quidditch superstar, I don't
know. Part of me say I do find it a bit much since I loathe it when
characters are given numerous phenomenal powers and talents. But at the
same time, I must admit that I'd never thought about it until you asked
that questions. I didn't questions it, which means that part of me
doesn't have a problem.

~Amber



=====
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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Thu Apr 19 17:07:31 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:07:31 -0000
Subject: Draco as student/teacher's pet
In-Reply-To: <20010419140700.54533.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bn60k+afai@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17139

I won?t put in any quotes on the topic because I keep attributing the 
bits and pieces to the wrong persons and then getting bashed 
for it off-list...

You?re discussing whether Draco is a good student or a bright boy. 

I think it doesn?t matter. It?s not an integral part of his character, 
or we would know about it. He probably looks very bright next to 
Crabbe and Goyle, but that doesn?t mean much. I don?t think he?s 
competing with Hermione for the top of every class position. He may be 
envious of her academic success, but not as a rival. He rather enjoys 
making fun of her know-it-all-attitudes as well as of her physical 
disadvantages (remember the Densaugeo-hex that caused one of Snape?s 
worst ever comments was Draco?s spell originally).

I think Draco is a very average student, bright enough to feel 
extremely superior to Neville, and normal enough to be envious of 
Hermione?s success. He?s probably very convinced it?s not even 
*necessary* for him to be a good student, since fame and money will 
buy him everything in later life. That?s very typical for spoiled kids 
like him, coming from a rich and famous family, with arrogant and 
ambitious parents. I went to a school with lots of Dracos, and he 
constantly reminds me of a lot of my classmates (in his general 
attitude, minus the meanness).

As to Draco always hiding behind Snape?s black cloak, so to speak, I 
think it is true. Draco never puts a toe out of the line when teachers 
are looking (e.g. not picking fights in the Great Hall or on the train 
with Lupin around). But on the other hand, he?s constantly looking for  
the teachers? support to get Harry into trouble (telling Filch about 
the duel, Flitwick about the Nimbus 200O, McGonagall about Norbert in 
HPPS and Snape about Harry?s illegal visit to Hogsmeade in PoA). He 
never even tries to sort things out with Harry directly. What a 
coward.






From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Apr 19 18:20:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:20:12 -0000
Subject: HP morally questionable?  Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <00c201c0c683$9a881980$0a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9bna8s+88th@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17140

>Big snip about morality of HP books. 
> Those are just some superficial observations; I'd be interested to 
hear more
> from others.
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
************************
IMHO, ALL books are morally questionable, including and maybe 
especially, the Bible. If not, what would the religious scholars 
debate for centuries? You can find immorality in anything, if you 
search hard enough. You can also find a great moral teaching in just 
about everything, if you search hard enough. 

When my son was about age 10 and wanted to watch "The Simpsons" on 
tv, I watched it with him and we discussed it afterwards. Bart and 
Harry, both do things that adults view as "bad behaviour". Children 
get a chuckle out of the things they do because, in their minds, they 
would love to be brave enough to fracture the rules, but in reality, 
their consciences get the best of them. 

I think a lot of the things that Harry gets away with fall under the 
heading of "the greater good". If your baby sister has crawled out 
onto the road and you are the only one to see her... yet your mom has 
told you to NEVER go into the road, under ANY circumstances, what do 
you do? Your mom told you to sit on the couch and not to move until 
she gets back, but the curtains are on fire. What do you do? These 
are the kinds of situations that children often face. They need to 
know how to make "wise choices, not always safe choices", meaning 
that sometimes, you even have to make a choice that breaks a rule, in 
order to do the greater good.

I think there is a good balance between the rules that Harry gets 
punished for breaking, or reprimanded for ... and the ones he gets 
away with, as it is with most children. How many parents have had eye-
opening chats with grown children about all the things that they "got 
away with"? I have told my parents things that I did when I was 
growing up that quite shocked them. They also told me about knowing 
some things about which I was positive they had no knowledge! I think 
that JKR has painted a very realistic world for us. It would be dull 
if Harry was perfect all the time. It would be worrisome if he never 
got caught in the act, too. As usual, good job, JKR!

Doreen, CPW




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Apr 19 17:37:55 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:37:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bmm54+87kt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADF2273.D332C425@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17141

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> > 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever
> > after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR
> > indicated in any way how Harry will end up?
> 
> The thought of Harry dying in book 7 is almost unbearable to me.  I
> am still angry at C.S. Lewis for having Lucy, Edmund and Peter die
> in "The Last Battle" (last of the Narnia books) just to go on to
> heaven.  I cannot accept that as a happy ending.  I did read JKR say
> in an interview "How do you know Harry will survive?" (something like
> that), and it just broke my heart.

I think if you felt that way about "The Last Battle" you kind of
missed the point ("just" to go to heaven???), but I =do= agree
that since JKR doesn't have the same theological underpinnings as
Lewis (as far as I can tell, anyway), using that ending would not
have the same effect . . . and I think it would be way too dark
even for the generally darker turn the books are taking.

I tend also to think that JKR was just jerking her fans'
collective chain by saying that.  ;) 


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Thu Apr 19 17:50:50 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:50:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <20010419155205.20002.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADF257A.F1F83FBD@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17142

Amber wrote:

> We don't know if Petunia was upset when Lily died, but I imagine that
> she wasn't. She might've shed tears for appearence sake, but I don't
> think she would've been too distraught. Of course, I'm only basing this
> off of all that Petunia has said about Lily, none of which has been
> positive. For all we know, Petunia could be grieving inside for her
> dead sister and hiding it...

I think that Petunia would have to be even more of a monster than
JKR depicts her as to feel =no= grief at Lily's death.  We all
kind of assume that Lily was a lovable person and it's perfectly
possible to love, hate, and be jealous of a sibling at the same
time.  (I'd be interested to know how Lily felt about Petunia,
myself.)

I can also easily see Petunia being =frightened= by Lily's
murder.  If some evil person murders your sister, might they not
be coming for you next?  Looking at it that way, it's easy to see
why Petunia rejects magic so violently, since in her view that's
what killed Lily.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Apr 19 18:42:04 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:42:04 -0300
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
Message-ID: <3ADF317C.8A8AEFD@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17143

Heh heh - with the new photos, I've been waiting for the Draco fans to:

(a) bemoan the lack of visible leather pants

(b) say, "See? He's smiling at Ron and Harry! He's not so bad!"

*grin*

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From eyegrrl at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 19 19:09:45 2001
From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:09:45 -0500
Subject: Petunia and Lily
In-Reply-To: <3ADF257A.F1F83FBD@erols.com>
References: <20010419155205.20002.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010419134852.00a89ec0@mail.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17144

My only issue with this is that Petunia and Vernon were already rejecting 
magic before they found out about the Potters' deaths.  I think that there 
is a large undercurrent of sibling jealousy that still exists for 
Petunia.  Maybe she continues to feel this way because she knows Lily is 
gone and can never reconcile these feelings she's had most of her life so 
it's easier to dislike Lily rather than face the truth and guilt that she 
misjudged her own sister and also mistreated her nephew.

Is it possible that Petunia wasn't so turned off my magic until she met 
Vernon and he had some extreme thoughts on the idea which colored her own 
issues from childhood.  I do think that we'll be seeing a huge revelation 
from Petunia at some point in the next book or two. I think there are too 
many loose ends concerning Lily's side of the family.

Maybe Petunia is just upset because the magic gene obviously skipped her 
and her son (that we know of so far) and seeing Harry get the letter brings 
all these old feelings of inadequecy to the surface again.  We know that 
Dudley wants (and gets) everything he asks for, and some things he 
doesn't.  We know that the Durselys can't say no to Dudley, so what if all 
of this 'magic hating' was premeditated to trick  Dudley into not wanting 
the letter if it ever arrived for him.  When it arrived for Harry and not 
Dudley, he was in the boat with his parents regarding his attitude toward 
magic.  He wanted notihng to do with it, therefore saving Vernon and 
Petunia from dealing with giving Dudley something he 'wanted'  I also think 
that Petunia almost sounded put off that Lily was accepted at Hogwarts and 
she wasn't.  As much as she loves Dudley, I can't imagine how she would 
feel if her son were accepted and she wasn't.

I don't know, this sounded much better in my head and now looking at it, I 
don't think it conveys what I wanted it too.  Strike it up to Spring Break.

>I can also easily see Petunia being =frightened= by Lily's
>murder.  If some evil person murders your sister, might they not
>be coming for you next?  Looking at it that way, it's easy to see
>why Petunia rejects magic so violently, since in her view that's
>what killed Lily.
>
>--Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at erols.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Thu Apr 19 19:16:41 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:16:41 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <3ADF317C.8A8AEFD@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9bndip+bek8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17145

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko <aboyko at n...> wrote:
> Heh heh - with the new photos, I've been waiting for the Draco fans
to:
> 
> (a) bemoan the lack of visible leather pants
> 
> (b) say, "See? He's smiling at Ron and Harry! He's not so bad!"


And would someone please remind me of what classroom scene in PS/SS 
would have Ron, Harry, AND Draco smiling? Where is a good pensieve
when you need one!

Ivis





From George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com  Thu Apr 19 19:19:09 2001
From: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com (George Weasley's Girlfriend)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MOVIE?: Harry Potter Theme Song Download Available
Message-ID: <383805669.987707949186.JavaMail.root@web589-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 17146

Got your attention, didn't it?  No, this isn't one of those stupid "catchy
title but with fic plug snuck in."  At the address below you can download a
copy of what's listed on Napster as the Harry Potter theme song.  It's a guy
singing a song with a guitar about - what else - Harry Potter.  It actually
sounds professionally done (Though I'm 99% sure it's not from the movie.),
so give it a looksee.  Or... er... a hearsee.  Or a lookhear.  I mean
hearlisten.  ::blinks::

http://www.homestead.com/azkabanwizardprison/downloads.html

Click on the one by Christopher Alan.  The other two songs are from songfics
I've done.  I really like the song, but had a bit of a hard time listening
to the lyrics the first time around.  Regardless, it's worth a listen.

Hope you enjoy listening and I look forward to hearing your comments on it,
if you can spare a moment away from Harry discussion. :)

Jana "El Platano" Tucker
AIM: Moo11225
ff.net: George Weasley's Girlfriend

Come join us in Paradise!  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise


______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 19:23:56 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:23:56 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
In-Reply-To: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bne0c+tv6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17147

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:

> 
> 1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a 
> million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did 
> he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

Well, it has to do with Harry being a Potter. We know this because of 
what Sirius sais in PoA to Pettigrew:
"... ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies... to 
deliver the last Potter to them." (UK, p. 400)
There are hints of a connection to Godric Gryffindor - the Potter's 
were living in Godric's Hollow, Harry was given Griffyndor's sword.
So - is it the last Slytherin vs. the last Griffyndor? Personally, I 
hope not. A bit banal, to my mind. 
If not the Gryffindor connection, what is it about the Potters that 
presents such a danger for V.? Nada. Haven't a clue.
Is it something to do with Trelawney's first true prediction? Did V. 
hear of the prediction (that the last Potter will be his downfall?), 
and in the classic fatalistic train went to eliminate the danger only 
to fulfill the prediction?
I doubt it. Why would he take Trelawney's prediction seriously, even 
if by some far off chance he had heard of it? She doesn't precisely 
inspire respect, does she? I can't see V. doing anything but laughing 
his "high, cold laugh" on hearing that that ridiculous woman 
predicted that a baby will be the downfall of the most powerfull dark 
wizard in a century.

> 
> 2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was 
it 
> about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill 
> Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or 
that 
> only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  
Or 
> that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS 
> IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)
> 

See above.


> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

I don't think there is any reasonable textual argument for or against 
Harry's survival. There may be "meta" arguments - based on the 
structure and "feel" of the books. For myself, I'm sure he will 
survive. BTW, to all you lit crits out there - how do you do 
protagonist's death in Third Person Limited? 


> 
> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  

It's an interesting question. I've thought about it before and I can 
only assume that it was presented to them as a fait accompli - he's 
here and you have to take care of him; DO NOT give him away.. or 
else.. . The Dursleys would be too scared not to follow instructions.

> 
> 5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who 
> will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, 
or 
> someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm 
sure 
> the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock 
> yourselves out.

Ginny. It's very romantic (almost too romantic) but I'd like to see 
it happen. I also have the feeling that JKR is going that way, albeit 
slowly. 

> 
> 6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and 
> the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's 
> personality?

Well, Ron is more fun-loving than Hermione, but he's not the clown 
type IMO (compare him to F&G). I don't see Ron and Hermione as the 
two opposites with Harry balanced in the middel, which seems to be 
the picture you're trying to convey. 
They are Harry's friends becuase of their courage and loyalty, IMO. 
The other characteristics are icing on the cake, so to speak.

> 7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows 
how 
> to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
> something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is 
not 
> only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a 
natural-born 
> Quidditch superstar?

It does seem a bit much, doesn't it? I never thought of it from this 
perspective, though. It just seems natural that the hero will *be* a 
hero, no? I don't think it's related, besides the fact that he gets 
his Quidditch talent from his father, and if he caused Voldy's 
downfall because he's a Potter, then he got that from his father too.


Naama





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 19:34:56 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:34:56 -0000
Subject: Harry Fortnight! (Filk)
Message-ID: <9bnel0+95hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17148

Ok can't believe I actually am posting a filk...*blushes in 
embarassment considering Caius and Pippin and everyone else who can 
do these so well*

Harry Fortnight! (to the tune of "Comedy Tonight" from "A Funny Thing 
Happened on the Way to the Forum".)

Something for Muggles,
Something for Wizards,
Something for Everyone, 
It's Harry fortnight!

Reread the Canon,
Cm'on let's nitpick,
What book do we all love,
It's Potter Delight!

Nothing of Ron,
Nothing of Snape,
We all know that it's Harry we love.

Bring on the Shippers,
Wear life perservers,
Now we are ready for a fight!
Send out the e-mail, 
Harry Fortnight!

-Scott





From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Apr 19 19:41:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:41:12 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
Message-ID: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17149

Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person that 
I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add their 
questions or opinions to the list. 

Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions with 
lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's 
humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you? 

If I just wanted to read about HP, I would probably surf all of the 
HP websites. I have found that the most fun thing about this group is 
the fact that I can ask questions or cast my opinion out there among 
the rest. Sometimes I get feedback, sometimes not. Sometimes I get 
feedback that I did not expect. You have to be able to accept 
criticism in here. I have made some horrific canon blunders and got 
nailed for it. :) I have also asked some questions which had been on 
other peoples' minds too. :):):) 

If you are a newbie and worried that your question has been hashed & 
rehashed to death, maybe it has. Then again, maybe it has not. There 
are so many sides to every issue. Perhaps yours is just the new 
perspective that we need to see. How will we ever know this for sure 
if you just sit there, keeping all of your incredible ideas locked up 
in your head?

If you ask a question, I am reasonably certain that the veterans of 
the channel can direct you to the exact letters where it has been 
previously discussed. There just might be others, though, who don't 
mind discussing it again. There might just be still others who have 
not had the chance to be *in* the previous discussions, but would 
like to be now. Take a chance. Post that question or opinion. It is 
not like someone is going to shoot you or anything. You might get 
forced to fluff some bunny slippers, though. Just a warning.

Doreen, who would love to hear from the other 1,000 people on the 
list. If you are really really shy, my email address is 
nera at rconnect.com




From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se  Thu Apr 19 20:10:49 2001
From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:10:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Why I lurk AND a question
In-Reply-To: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104192146490.13784-100000@caliondo.dd.chalmers.se>

No: HPFGUIDX 17150

On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person that 
> I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add their 
> questions or opinions to the list. 

For me the main reason is that it takes too long to write it down in
english and if I have questions I usually discuss with my boyfriend. It is
much easier :-) Usually I am satisfied with just reading your discussions.

> If I just wanted to read about HP, I would probably surf all of the 
> HP websites. I have found that the most fun thing about this group is 
> the fact that I can ask questions or cast my opinion out there among 
> the rest. 

No, it is not the same just to surf. Most websites only give one persons
opinions, at a list people are discussing and more ideas come up. It is
more interesting to read a list than a webpage even if you don't
participate yourself.

But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night when I
was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it, but why is
it people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys. Why not someone
from Ministry of Magic?

-- 
// Lea

===================================
f95lean at dd.chalmers.se
http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lean/
===================================





From john at walton.to  Thu Apr 19 20:28:20 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:28:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I lurk AND a question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104192146490.13784-100000@caliondo.dd.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <B70508F4.1627%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17151

on 4/19/01 9:10 PM, Lea Niiniskorpi at f95lean at dd.chalmers.se wrote:

> But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night when I
> was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it, but why is
> it people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys. Why not someone
> from Ministry of Magic?

Hmm. Good question. I personally think that Lily and James were very close
to "Hogwarts types", like Hagrid, Dumbledore, etc., after they left. I
reckon they also kept in close contact with school friends like Sirius and
Remus Lupin.

Moreover, I guess, James & Lily were likely involved with whatever the
precursor organisation to "The Order of the Phoenix" was -- the
Dumbledore-based group, at any rate. I bet Hagrid and most of the other
Hogwartsites, as well as Sirius, Remus et al were also involved.

Just my 4 billion Italian Lira (US$ 0.02)

--John




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Apr 19 20:53:30 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:53:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
References: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c0c912$cee9d880$5aeb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17152


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nera at rconnect.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:41 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)


  Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person that 
  I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add their 
  questions or opinions to the list. 

  Please don't be paranoid!  I'm just kidding!  I was actually on a list once on which a few members expressed concern about lurkers, fearing that they were there to spy on the discussions.
  I lurk mostly for two reasons: 1) I love Harry Potter and love to read discussion by other adults about the books...and 2)I, for a lot of reasons (chronic illnesses, not enough time to spend online) cannot participate in a lot of discussions.  So I do the next best thing, I "listen" to what other people are saying.


  Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions with 
  lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's 
  humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you? 

  I think that it is made reasonably clear that, for us, there are very few new topics anymore, and so newbies are certain that their question has already discussed and are afraid of the impatience and exasperation it may cause.  I've been here for several months and I still worry about bringing up a topic that has already been discussed.


  Ender  HP4GU's member # 885



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.to  Thu Apr 19 20:54:48 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:54:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <003101c0c912$cee9d880$5aeb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <B7050F28.1633%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17153

on 4/19/01 9:53 PM, ender_w at ender_w at msn.com wrote:

> I think that it is made reasonably clear that, for us, there are very few new
> topics anymore, and so newbies are certain that their question has already
> discussed and are afraid of the impatience and exasperation it may cause.
> I've been here for several months and I still worry about bringing up a topic
> that has already been discussed.

Gee, folks, nobody faults you for not having been here to discuss the topics
the first time round. To be honest, if it's in the VFAQ (Very Frequently
Asked Questions) file, then you might experience somebody saying "not
AGAIN". But that's why we have the VFAQ -- to avoid that. Anytime we
Moderators see a topic getting the "Yes, we too spotted that gleam in
Dumbledore's eye" treatment, we try to add it to the VFAQ in the hope that
someone'll read it. Of course, some folks (come on, you know who you are
::wink::) will miss (or downright ignore) the VFAQ message which is sent to
them on subscription, and we can't help that.

But, newbies (and lurkers), unless your preference is to lurk (and that's
cool too, don't get me wrong), feel free to chip in.

Cheers,

--John
________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Thu Apr 19 21:08:47 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:08:47 -0000
Subject: Petunia and Lily
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010419134852.00a89ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9bnk4v+kq75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17154

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chris <eyegrrl at e...> wrote:
> Is it possible that Petunia wasn't so turned off my magic until she 
met 
> Vernon and he had some extreme thoughts on the idea which colored 
her own 
> issues from childhood.  I do think that we'll be seeing a huge 
revelation 
> from Petunia at some point in the next book or two. I think there 
are too 
> many loose ends concerning Lily's side of the family.

We definitely need to hear more about Lily's side of the family - I'm 
very curious to know about the people who were grandparents to both 
Harry and Dudley! Uncle Vernon definitely seems to get angrier about 
magic than Petunia, so maybe he did influence her views in that 
direction. However, if we remember the infamous Petunia speech at the 
hut, it seems her resentment of Lily and magic stemmed from 
childhood. She talks about how her parents were so happy to have a 
witch in the family and how Lily used to turn teacups into frogs or 
something. I have the feeling that the dislike of magic definitely 
came from childhood and not necessarily from Vernon.

> 
> Maybe Petunia is just upset because the magic gene obviously 
skipped her 
> and her son (that we know of so far) and seeing Harry get the 
letter brings 
> all these old feelings of inadequecy to the surface again.  We know 
that 
> Dudley wants (and gets) everything he asks for, and some things he 
> doesn't.  We know that the Durselys can't say no to Dudley, so what 
if all 
> of this 'magic hating' was premeditated to trick  Dudley into not 
wanting 
> the letter if it ever arrived for him.  When it arrived for Harry 
and not 
> Dudley, he was in the boat with his parents regarding his attitude 
toward 
> magic.  He wanted notihng to do with it, therefore saving Vernon 
and 
> Petunia from dealing with giving Dudley something he 'wanted'  

OK I'm not sure about this idea - I was under the impression that 
Dudley was completely unaware about magic prior to the scene at the 
hut.. and he is quite impressionable and conditioned to believe in 
the same things his parents do, but I don't think they specifically 
had a magic-hating attitude for Dudley's sake. I think the magic-
hating goes much deeper than that... we can see that in the first 
chapter of PS (prior to Harry's arrival) when it says that the 
Dursleys hadn't seen the Potters in years and didn't want to have 
anything to do with them... I think there's something much further 
back that we still don't know about. Also, I think they *can* say no 
to Dudley - they completely ignored him in PS, when he didn't want 
Harry to come with them to the zoo, when he wanted to see the letter 
from Hogwarts, and when Uncle Vernon took them on the frantic escape 
in the car, and Dudley is crying, something about how he had "never 
had a worse day in his life." Usually they spoil him rotten, but when 
it comes to magic, I don't think the Dursleys behave in character. I 
wonder why..




From airasrp at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 21:38:28 2001
From: airasrp at yahoo.com (Sarah R. Pripas)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry Character Sketch
Message-ID: <20010419213828.77639.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17155

*steps out of lurkdom for the moment*

Jenny wrote:
Somehow Harry is a major threat to Voldie - I think
Voldie 
knows that Harry's powers will rival his, and they
already do, in a 
way.

I have to disagree with this.  Yes, Harry has been
lucky several times.  Doesn't mean that his powers
rival Voldy's, or that they ever will for that matter.
 In fact, IMO, most of Harry's successes were more out
of stregnth of character than out of stregnth of his
actual powers.  Or, in some cases, out of the stregnth
of his mother's love for him, which was really, as far
as we know, the only reason he "defeated" Voldemort in
the first place.  IMO, one of the best things about
Harry is that he's really very average.  Other than
his outstanding Quidditch talents and a natural
ability with DATDA, he really isn't super-powerful or
anything.  He just has many fine attributes and a bit
of luck.  ;)    

Jenny wrote:
  Other than Dumbledore, I believe that Harry is now
the one 
wizard (or second) who puts fear into Lord Voldemort.

Again, I have to disagree.  We have no real evidence
of that.  Indeed, when Harry met Voldemort last, he
treated Harry as nothing more than a petty threat.  On
Voldy's part, we see little more than confidence and
hatred.  Certainly there are no hints of fear, as is
demonstrated by Voldemort's arrogant sneering towards
Harry.  But then, that's just my opinion.

Jenny wrote:
If Harry dies, what is the point of the noble crusade
he has pursued 
for good and against evil Voldemort?

What if he dies as kind of a final sacrifice?  There's
*definetly* a point to that.  (of course, I'll still
be bawling my eyes out if that happens...*g*)

Jenny wrote:
I want Harry to win.

So do I.  But to win, he doesn't neccessarily have to
live, IMO.   

By Harry being great at Quidditch, he is able to fit
into a society 
that sees him as an outsider (no one else has been
through what he's 
been through, he grew up with Muggles, etc.). 
Everyone loves 
athletes, and it is easy for everyone to accept Harry
when he is good 
at something as beloved as Quidditch is.

Interesting point, but I think that Harry would be
accepted even without his Quidditch ability, being
"the famous Harry Potter" and all.

Sarah

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 21:44:12 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:44:12 
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F84aEqxGGmNN790000f578@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17156

Philip wrote:
>I think that the sock symbolizes disrespect. Lucius didn't think much of 
>giving an old sock to Dobby, because he doesn't care for house-elves. In 
>the same way, Vernon only gave Harry a sock, because he hates Harry's kind.
>
>I might be wrong about the socks, though; you have a good point.

I think the whole sock question is way more complex than that ;)!  By my 
calcluation, there are 21 references to socks in the canon, not counting any 
in FB and QA - haven't checked those yet.  Does anyone recall?  For what 
it's worth, this is what I think.

Socks are closely related to a major (if not *the* major) theme, namely 
Things Are Not What They Seem.  The sock is a humble, even comical, garment, 
and the archetypal boring Christmas present, necessary but often 
unattractive.  JKR, while getting full comedy value out of all this, builds 
it into much more.

Our very first sight of Harry (apart from his arrival at 4, Privet Drive) is 
where he is "looking for socks" (PS 20 - page numbers from British edition) 
and has to pull a spider off one, illustrating the Dursley's uncaring 
neglect.  Contrast this with Mrs Weasley's "fussing over the state of his 
socks" (CoS 36) and having "washed all his socks" (GoF 138).  At the Burrow, 
a family atmosphere is evoked: "Mrs Weasley dashed about in a bad mood 
looking for spare socks and quills, people kept colliding on the stairs, 
half-dressed with bits of toast in their hands" (CoS 53) - well, Mrs W may 
be in a bad mood, but I'll bet Harry loves it - this is what he's been 
missing all these years.

We get an early (PS 157) hint that socks may be important when Dumbledore 
reveals that he sees himself "holding a pair of thick woollen socks" in the 
mirror of Erised, and makes the wonderful remark that "One can never have 
enough socks...Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn't get a single 
pair.  People will insist on giving me books".

When Dobby enters the picture, socks become hugely important: "Dobby can 
only be freed if his master presents him with clothes, sir.  The family is 
careful not to pass Dobby even a sock, sir, for then he would be free to 
leave their home for ever" (CoS 153).  When Harry tricks Malfoy snr into 
doing just that, we see Dobby "holding up Harry's disgusting, slimy sock and 
looking at it as though it were *a priceless treasure* (CoS 248, my 
emphasis) which, of course, it is.

>From then on, Dobby is a kind of sock magnet, as pairs of initially unwanted 
socks are passed on and eventually treasured by Dobby.  The "freedom sock" 
has passed from Harry to Malfoy to Dobby.  Other pairs of socks will echo 
this journey.  Uncle Vernon's old socks have a particularly interesting 
career, starting as "the worst [prior to Marge's visit] present the Dursleys 
had ever given him" (PoA 20).  Those Dursley's are inspired bad present 
givers - not just socks, but *second-hand* (foot?) socks!  Harry says "I 
never wear those socks if I can help it" (PoA 167) but uses them to wrap up 
the Sneakoscope.

On Christmas morning, Harry gives Vernon's socks (now known to be "foul" 
"mustard-yellow" and "extra knobbly") to Dobby in one of the most 
delightful, and sock-filled, scenes in HP (GoF 355-6).  In the same scene, 
Ron presents Dobby with an unwanted violet pair he got from his mother (BTW, 
is she colour-blind?! :) ) and Dobby is tearful with gratitude:
"'Dobby did not know that he [Ron] was also as generous of spirit, as noble, 
as selfless-'
'They're only socks,' said Ron, who had gone slightly pink around the 
ears..."

So now we have the Molly-Ron-Dobby socks and the Vernon-Harry-Dobby socks 
once unvalued, now treasured in a scene overflowing with affection and joy.  
Perhaps Dumbledore really *did* see himself with a thick pair of socks in 
the mirror of Erised.

Dobby now gives Harry the socks, one red, with broomsticks, the other green 
with Snitches, that he has knitted for him, buying the wool from the wages 
he is now free to earn.  What's the betting these socks will reappear, and 
turn out to have some powerful magic knitted into them?  Were these the ones 
Dumbledore saw in the mirror?

In a final foot-note (sorry!), Harry resolves to buy Dobby "a pair of socks 
for every day of the year" (GoF 441)in gratitude for his help in the 
Tournament, and, to his very great credit, actually *does* buy him several 
pairs (GoF 451). Ron helps him to pick them out, including " a pair 
patterned with flashing gold and silver stars and another that screamed 
loudly when they became too smelly".

So, what do socks symbolise?  Love?  Freedom?  Redemption?  Anyway, you can 
be sure they're NOT WHAT THEY SEEM!
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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 21:52:36 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:52:36 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch!  (with FF snippet)
Message-ID: <F100MMDiwQn7KuA66Sk000077fe@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17157

Oh, what a *great* summary, Joywitch!

Since no one from my, er, *ideological camp* seems to have pounced on this 
yet, I'll take a stab and jump into the waters of this thread.

I solemnly swear I am up to no good... I promise to be as controversial as I 
possibly can.  :)

>From: joym999 at aol.com

>1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a
>million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did
>he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

We still don't know what Trelawney's First Prediction was, and there are as 
many guesses on it as there are fans.  One fan writer-friend of mine's guess 
is found below:

"For in this present age, evil
Pervades the land.
But fear not, good-doer
A saviour is at hand.
He will be the first-born son
Of the Stag and the Flower,
He will reign above all others
In bravery and power.
The Dark Lords reign of terror will,
Immediately desist,
Though the Dark Lord will not yet go 
His shadow will exist."
--ff.net writer Sirius, *Back to the Future*

My ideas about Voldemort's motives shift about from time to time.  At the 
moment, I'm a Prophecy theorist.  Now, I don't know *what* the Prophecy 
was... but I have the sneaking suspicion that the events that took place in 
Godric's Hollow on October 31, 1981 was the fulfillment of it.

I should say here that I don't think that Lily was the only reason why Harry 
did not die that night... in fact, the Narnian idea ("deep magic from the 
dawn of time") never occurred to me until I began reading this list.  I may 
have bought it after reading CoS and PS/SS, but PoA and GoF killed that idea 
for me.  This may be a somewhat unpopular view on this list, but I believe 
there's something about Harry himself that cause V's downfall.  The 
wizarding world thinks so.

Yes, yes, I know all about D's famous quote about our choices making us who 
we are, and not our abilities.  I don't think his quote can be used to prove 
that Harry's an ordinary wizarding kid or even a Squib who got his powers 
from Voldemort (as was recently proposed here.)  A gifted child has a 
different set of choices to make than a child who is average, based on 
his/her abilities.

As far as Lily and James are concerned, we know from GoF that Voldemort was 
NOT targeting Lily.  This week, I've been browsing at Steve's Lexicon 
(excellent website!)... and IIRC, there's a theory over there that Voldemort 
did NOT kill the Potters... someone else did.  I'm not sure if that was 
Steve's idea or someone else's.  Intriguing, though, if not plausible.

>2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it
>about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill
>Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that
>only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or
>that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS
>IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)

See above.  And yes, it has been discussed to death.

>3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever
>after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR
>indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

It's too early to tell.

Can't we have some middle ground between "certain doom" and "riding off into 
the sunset", though?  :)

>4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they
>feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset
>when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or
>charmed) by Dumbledore?

I've been wondering this myself... either Heidi or Jim Ferer and I were 
discussing this recently.

I'm starting to wonder if the Dursleys are being paid to keep Harry.  I 
know, there's no evidence in canon for it.  But Vernon and Petunia's hatred 
of wizards might not extend to refusing to take their gold.

I think that Harry was raised by the Dursleys because Dumbledore wanted him 
there.  Why is anyone's guess.  We know that Harry's protected with the 
Dursleys...

>5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is  Who
>will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or
>someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm sure
>the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock
>yourselves out.
>

In canon?  Hopefully, no one.  I'm a total no-shipper where he's concerned 
for Books 5, 6, and 7.  :)

>6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and
>the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's
>personality?

He didn't choose them.  At all.  I re-read PS/SS a couple of weeks ago... 
they were all just sort of thrown together.  Friends by circumstance.

All three complement each other.  Much as I liked Joywitch's summary, I'm 
not much for the notion that Ron is Harry's best friend and Hermione's some 
sort of hanger-on.  I would have liked to see more analysis of the 
Harry-Hermione *friendship*.  :)

>7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows how
>to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have
>something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not
>only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born
>Quidditch superstar?

Well, James was great at Quidditch.  Seems to be hereditary.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Those who have ceased to love
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that
Never ask, the minds that never
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 21:53:58 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DA5@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <20010419215358.85185.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17158


>>> I haven't seen him relying on Snape to keep himself out of
>>> trouble - if he really could do that, then Snape would've at
least
>>> tried a way to get Draco out of that forebidden forrest trip back

>>> during first year.
 
> > No teacher would interfere with another teacher's detention
> > assignment.  Snape wouldn't have tried.

> Why wouldn't he? 

Because of professional courtesy between teachers.  It just wouldn't
happen.  Hogwarts is based on policies in place in British public
schools and in the "school days" fiction I've read, detentions were
between teacher and student(s).

It's a logical spiral to say that because the canon doesn't
explicitly state ABC, then an opposing view like XYZ must or was
likely to be so.  I think we can assume things from the canon and one
of those things is that Draco is not a student knocking himself out
for high academic honours.  

And is a smarmy little git besides.


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From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 22:03:20 2001
From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Movie casting problems (so to speak)  and why I lurk
Message-ID: <20010419220320.81855.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17159

First off, the movie.  Am I the only one bothered by
the fact that Ron is shorter than Harry?  In the
books, wasn't he taller? Maybe I'm just remembering
wrong, somebody has my SS book, but I am pretty sure
Ron was taller.  In the picture located here : 
http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery31.htm  Ron's
noticably shorter.  I was just wondering if I'm the
only one with this problem.  As well, I'm not too
happy with the casting of Draco.  He doesn't really
remind me of him.  I always pictured Draco as an evil
Aaron Carter with blue eyes, but maybe it's just me.
And why I lurk most of the time.  Sure, I've only been
on the list for about two weeks, maybe less, but most
of the time I read instead of comment.  That's simply
because it takes about two hours it get through all
the posts and most of the things you want to say have
already been said.  

-Sarah

=====
Sometimes, the best things in life aren't free.  Afterall, Harry Potter books are 15 bucks each, not counting all the other Potter stuff...

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 22:41:24 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:41:24 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron to die? (was: well, as it's still Ron's week...)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F99d03cRqUfhe50000f496@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17160

naama wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> > >Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure
> > >and innocent who always are the first to die.
> > >Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
> > >Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
> > >Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a
> > >unicorn tail hair at its core. Ron.
> >
> > I really, REALLY, hate to say this, but I may have found some back-
>up for this idea.  We know Dumbledore has said that Sybil Trelawney has
>made *two* correct predictions.  I think the "rules of the game" imply 
> >that we have the other one somewhere in what she has said.  At the 
> >Christmas feast in PoA, she makes, arguably, two predictions.  One is 
> >that Lupin will not be among them for long.  Well, that does come >true, 
>and I hope that's the one, because the other is that the first >to rise 
>from their table of 13 will be the first to die.  The first to >rise is 
>either Harry....or Ron.
>Dumbledore responds to the first by saying he doesn't think Lupin is >in 
>any immediate danger, but he doesn't respond to the second.
> > We also know that JKR has said that a "special friend" of Harry's
>will die.
>Agreed, he has quite a few of these in one way and another.
>I have various reasons for doubting this whole idea, not least that
>Ron is too important a character to die, but please, please post > 
>arguments against this - I'll agree with them!
> >
>
>OK - I'll oblige <g>.
>I don't agree that "according to the rule of the game" her first true
>prediction is stated. On the contrary, I think it's one of the
>tantalizing references to past occurrunces that JKR loves to sprinkle
>around.

Well, I assumed it was one of those "have you read closely?" tests she also 
loves to sprinkle around, but I can be persuaded...OTOH, maybe it was simply 
the one about Lupin - depends how many staff knew about him.  If she knew he 
was a werewolf, it would be an informed guess, not a prediction.

>Besides, Trelawney's second prediction was characterized by a state
>of true trance. It impressed Harry deeply *before* he knew it had
>been fulfilled. The ominous predictions at Christmas dinner were said
>in her normal, "misty" manner.
>
>Have I managed to reassure you? <g>

I think the "misty manner" argument *does* reassure me to some extent, but 
the fact that Sybil herself probably didn't see this one as a real 
prediction makes me suspicious.  And if Dumbledore thought she had 
accurately predicted Ron's death, he wouldn't say anything to Harry about 
it, especially in such a light tone.  He would only judge a prediction as 
accurate after it had come true.

Yeah, thanks!  Between us, we've talked me round! *bg*
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From sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 23:01:00 2001
From: sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com (sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:01:00 -0000
Subject: Why do adults read Harry Potter?
Message-ID: <9bnqnc+684h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17161

I am a graduating college senior doing a paper on HP and why adults 
love the books so much.  I would love your input (those of you who 
have already, thank you!).  Please reply or email me with why you love 
them so much, why they are great literature, etc. and include your 
age.  Thank you so much for your help!

Sabrina




From sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 19 23:05:44 2001
From: sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com (sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:05:44 -0000
Subject: Movie casting problems (so to speak)  and why I lurk
In-Reply-To: <20010419220320.81855.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bnr08+6279@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17162

I also have the same height concerns.  However, I think that the Draco 
caracter is great - he does look snobby and pompous.  As for evil, I 
don't know about that, but he definately looks SLIMEY.  And that is 
the biggest impression I get of Malfoy.  His family is very concerned 
with status and looks, and they are slimey.  Thanks for the webpage of 
pictures!  They are great!

Sabrina


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose <counterfeitlove at y...> wrote:
> First off, the movie.  Am I the only one bothered by
> the fact that Ron is shorter than Harry?  In the
> books, wasn't he taller? Maybe I'm just remembering
> wrong, somebody has my SS book, but I am pretty sure
> Ron was taller.  In the picture located here : 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery31.htm  Ron's
> noticably shorter.  I was just wondering if I'm the
> only one with this problem.  As well, I'm not too
> happy with the casting of Draco.  He doesn't really
> remind me of him.  I always pictured Draco as an evil
> Aaron Carter with blue eyes, but maybe it's just me.
> And why I lurk most of the time.  Sure, I've only been
> on the list for about two weeks, maybe less, but most
> of the time I read instead of comment.  That's simply
> because it takes about two hours it get through all
> the posts and most of the things you want to say have
> already been said.  
> 
> -Sarah
> 
> =====
> Sometimes, the best things in life aren't free.  Afterall, Harry 
Potter books are 15 bucks each, not counting all the other Potter 
stuff...
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From john at walton.to  Thu Apr 19 23:08:30 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:08:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks 
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F84aEqxGGmNN790000f578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7052E7E.1651%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17163

on 4/19/01 10:44 PM, Morag Traynor at moragt at hotmail.com wrote:

> So, what do socks symbolise?  Love?  Freedom?  Redemption?  Anyway, you can
> be sure they're NOT WHAT THEY SEEM!

Well, Morag, we've never had *this* particular discussion before ::big
grin:: You make some really interesting points -- I particularly thought of
the sock as resembling the hum-drum of daily life ("What's that dear?
Another odd sock?") of which Harry has been deprived during his stay with
the Dursleys, and for which (IMHO) he yearns. Ergo why Molly Weasley washes
his socks, Dobby (the height of domestic servitude) only gets one when he's
due to be freed, etc.

Just some thoughts.

--John
____________________________________________

"One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."
-'Mick Travers', Malcolm McDowell's character in "If..." (1968)

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:24:25 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:24:25 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F51vLOrDWSMXQe0000d7b1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17164

Sorry, didn't realize it was a recent topic.


>From: naama_gat at hotmail.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:33:23 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
>a
> > Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and
>not find
> > him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?  Dumbledore would
>be the
> > obvious answer, but maybe he thought it would be better to chose
>someone
> > less obvious.  Any suggestions?
> >
>
>This has been discussed at length quite recently. Was there an agreed
>upon answer? Don't remember. Probably not.
>
>My hunch, however, is that the Fidelius charm is not the answer.
>Harry's protected at the Dursleys because they are his blood
>relatives (ref?). It is some kind of ancient magic that JKR is
>purposely leaving vague at the moment, IMO.
>Knowing her MO (acronym of?) that would mean that it will be fully
>explicated in the future and will probably play an important part in
>the plot. Remember Azkaban?
>
>
>Naama
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:40:10 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:40:10 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <LAW2-F816zPpPku04ko0000a8bc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17165

Yeah, I kinda thought that too ;)


>From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> > a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom
>and
> > not find him.  The question is, who is the secret keeper?
> > Dumbledore would be the obvious answer, but maybe he thought it
> > would be better to chose someone
> > less obvious.  Any suggestions?
>
>
>Snape, obviously.  The last person on earth anyone would suspect and
>the main reason he lets his hatred of Harry have full rein and why he
>tears around protecting him from various potential harms.
>
>Dumbledore learned his lesson after the Potters' deaths.  NEVER pick
>someone known to be close to the intended protected one.
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 00:22:29 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:22:29 -0000
Subject: Harry Character Sketch
In-Reply-To: <20010419213828.77639.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bnvg5+pahq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17166

Wow!  You really tore me apart here!  That's cool, though.  My 
students and I have voice raising debates in class several times a 
week :-)
> 
> he's really very average.  Other than
> his outstanding Quidditch talents and a natural
> ability with DATDA, he really isn't super-powerful or
> anything.  He just has many fine attributes and a bit
> of luck.  ;)

I guess because I have such faith in Harry (I do love him to death, 
you know), I can't accept that he is 'just average'.  He had two 
parents who were well respected in the wizard community, and in PoA, 
there is mention of how exceptionally bright James was.  Remember, he 
was able to become an animagus as well as help make the Marauders' Map 
at a young age.  Some of that must have been passed down to Harry.      
> 
>
> 
> Again, I have to disagree.  We have no real evidence
> of that.  Indeed, when Harry met Voldemort last, he
> treated Harry as nothing more than a petty threat.  On
> Voldy's part, we see little more than confidence and
> hatred.  Certainly there are no hints of fear, as is
> demonstrated by Voldemort's arrogant sneering towards
> Harry.  But then, that's just my opinion.

Voldie can't want Harry dead from hatred alone.  He fears (IMO) what 
Harry will become as he gets older and a better wizard.  Harry has 
something (I'm not sure what) on Voldie that scares the hell out of 
Voldie, which is why he wants to destroy Harry (that was quite jumbled 
- sorry).
> 
> Jenny wrote:
> If Harry dies, what is the point of the noble crusade
> he has pursued 
> for good and against evil Voldemort?
> 
> What if he dies as kind of a final sacrifice?  There's
> *definetly* a point to that.  (of course, I'll still
> be bawling my eyes out if that happens...*g*)
> 
I can't bear that - I just can't :-(   
> 
 I think that Harry would be
> accepted even without his Quidditch ability, being
> "the famous Harry Potter" and all.

Nah - people need to see him as something beyond 'the famous Harry 
Potter'.  Quidditch helps that happen.    
> 

Anyway, thanks for responding.  It's good for me to have to explain 
myself better.

--jenny f




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 00:37:36 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:37:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do adults read Harry Potter?
References: <9bnqnc+684h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c0c932$19ad27e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17167

Hey sabrina!

Well, as a college junior, i know the pain of papers, so good luck getting all your info together.
I have a lot of friends who love HP too, and we just enjoy the fact that it isn't here.  This universe is very intricately created and gives us something to get lost in when the real world is getting too pesky.  
I personally love the sense of fun that pervades this book.  Every time I start to read I get the feeling that JKR had just as much fun writing it as I do reading, which just increases my enjoyment.  

This really isn't "children's literature," as it's usually defined.  ( I worked in a library in high school.  To this day I am dismayed by the pap that we give our children to read.)  These books require thought.  There are a lot of difficult issues dealt with, directly and indirectly.  A lot of the books I grew up reading had were "happily ever after" and they drove me nuts: noone ever gets hurt, mommy and daddy suddenly decide not to get divorced after all, that F on the paper was a mistake and would be fixed right away...blech!
 The books I really love, and reread to this day, like "Little Women" or the Laura Ingalls Wilder series, acknowledged that death occurs, that people don't always get enough to eat, etc.  Bad things happen, and HP doesn't shy away from that.  This "artifical universe" is a lot more realistic than some stories that are supposed to be set in the "house next door."  I use reading as escapism, true, but a story that is nothing but sweetness and light rings false with me.  My world has dark aspects to it, everyone's does.  JKR acknowledges that, instead of ignoring it, and she uses the bittersweet to great effect.  

But I think the real reason I love these books so much is magic. I always thought that being able to use magic would be the coolest thing in the world.  I can't (darned Muggleness! <g>), so I have to let the books do it for me, in the way that only a good book can. 

Abbie, who wishes that more authors wrote books for the kiddie/teenage crowd with such a style that even the grownups could enjoy.  Or maybe more grownups are just finding their inner kid... <g>
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sabrinarae77 at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, 19 April, 2001 7:01 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do adults read Harry Potter?


  I am a graduating college senior doing a paper on HP and why adults 
  love the books so much.  I would love your input (those of you who 
  have already, thank you!).  Please reply or email me with why you love 
  them so much, why they are great literature, etc. and include your 
  age.  Thank you so much for your help!

  Sabrina


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
       
       

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 00:38:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:38:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco brilliant? (was Re: Draco as student/teacher's  pet)
References: <9bmqrp+tj73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADF84F8.7D0C41B6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17168

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> Sorry, it sounds like a rant, but I really hate Draco and his like
> (i.e., cowardly, cold-hearted, whiny, lying bullies).

On a sheerly speculative note here, it also strikes me as likely (on the
"we never hear about Draco in the library" thought) that Slytherin house
is the one most likely to have a bank of old tests, shortcuts, the
wizard equivalent to Cliff's Notes, etc. There was always at least one
fraternity or similar organization that didn't *exactly* cheat, but that
gave, shall we say, maximum help to its members (and their friends). So
maybe Draco does his "studying" in his own common room, and might *be*
getting great grades....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 00:40:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:40:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
References: <20010419141527.9178.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ADF8560.BFD7D91D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17169

Amber wrote:

> The one who does not fit my mental image is the actors playing
> Dumbledore and McGonagall. Dumbledore just looks...too Merliny for my
> taste. I can't quite explain it, I hate the hair and the beard.

I've said it before. I'll say it again. Peter O'Toole should have been
Dumbledore.

--Amanda, unrepentant for her one-liner in the face of such
unimpeachable good sense


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 00:50:02 2001
From: misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com (suzielynn.*)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:50:02 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bo13q+f44v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17170

Aloha!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person 
that 
> I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add 
their 
> questions or opinions to the list. 

I lurk because of many reasons.

a) The sheer volume of email on the list in combination with my 
limited time prohibits me from posting as much as I'd like to.

b) Most of the time, my opinion on the issues being discussed has 
already been stated by someone else in a far more articulate manner 
than what I could express.

c) To be quite frank, I'm intimidated.  The majority of posters here 
are, as the name of the group would indicate, "grownups", with 
experience and definitive stances on the topics at hand, and I would 
have a hard time, as a high school sophomore, offering my opinion 
without a firm root in factual experiences and without sounding like 
a bossy, know-it-all brat.  ^_^

> Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions 
with 
> lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's 
> humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you? 

*meek voice* Yes.  *smacks self*  Auugh!  I'm debate captain!  I'm 
not supposed to be afraid of confrontation!  ^_^
 
*there's a flock of seagulls in my basement.* --alicia/sue spinnet or 
suzielynn.*




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 00:53:33 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:53:33 -0000
Subject: Why do adults read Harry Potter?
In-Reply-To: <9bnqnc+684h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bo1ad+k5t9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17171

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sabrinarae77 at y... wrote:
> I am a graduating college senior doing a paper on HP and why adults 
> love the books so much.  I would love your input (those of you who 
> have already, thank you!).  Please reply or email me with why you 
love 
> them so much, why they are great literature, etc. and include your 
> age.  Thank you so much for your help!
> 
> Sabrina

I am a 52 year old physician who is well read in many genres of 
fiction, among which are science fiction & fantasy.  I read Harry 
Potter because it is good writing.  As an author, JKR is a superb 
craftsman.  Her works are cleverly plotted; she makes many esoteric 
allusions that increase my enjoyment; she has a fine sense of humor 
that resonates with my own; her character development, as well as the 
variety of characters she creates, is as good as any author's that I 
have read.  One of the hallmarks of great fiction is the extent to 
which it can have an impact in other areas of human endeavor.  The 
Harry Potter books certainly do this.  Most important, they are so 
doggone enjoyable!

Haggridd




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 18 20:55:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:55:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Patronus Re: The Dementors
Message-ID: <LAW2-F98ZTHfyQgeDKv0000cfdd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17172

Milz wrote:


>Thanks. I have a long-shot theory that might tie together the Patronus
>and the Animagus animal form. Both might be animal manifestations of
>your innner-self or your "spirit guide". So for James and Harry it's a
>stag. Sirius its a dog. McGonagall it's a cat.
>
>Any thoughts?

Nice.  I have two quibbles:
1.  What if (like most wizards) you're not an animagus?
2.  Lupin says the patronus is "unique to the wizard that conjures it",
    so James and Harry can't have the same one.  And we don't know that
    if Harry became an animagus (and hasn't JKR said he won't?) he
    would be a stag.

I do like the idea of Rita Skeeter's patronus being a beetle, though! :)
_________________________________________________________________________
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From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 20 01:42:18 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:42:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
In-Reply-To: <20010419155205.20002.qmail@web1607.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010419214218.00777220@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17173

At 08:52 AM 4/19/01 -0700, you wrote:

>> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
>> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
>> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?
>
>Well, I don't know. I think that JKR will have him live "happily ever
>after", because too many people will be upset otherwise. But I'd love
>to see how she would kill him off. In fact, I'd laugh if she actually
>did. Here's this fictional boy that hordes of people adore, and JKR has
>the gall to kill him. 

Just had to bring up Louisa May Alcott and 'Little Women' again. I read
somewhere that she had Laurie marry Amy because she was annoyed at people
wanting to see Jo and Laurie together ... =P

However, I agree with Margaret in that I think JKR just wanted to shake up
people who had already arrived at various smug assumptions about the plot.

>I wouldn't see Harry's dying as a defeat at all. Dying to save the
>world from an unspeakable evil...well, that's something. Granted, it
>doesn't change that he's still dead, but I still think that it's
>meaningful.
 
I agree that it would be very meaningful and all, but if that happens, it
will be near impossible for me to ever reread the series again. When I
reread multi-volume books, I tend to get carried away by the story and
don't stop until I finish the whole series. No matter how interesting the
earlier books are, I won't feel like reading them again if they have sad or
bittersweet endings, because it's just too heartbreaking when I get to the
end.

Samaporn




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Apr 20 01:48:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:48:11 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADF955B.9AE1C27D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17174

Hi everyone --

Nice character sketch Joywitch!  :--)  I can't believe I'm still able to
participate ....

> 2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it
> about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill
> Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that
> only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or
> that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS
> IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)

I believe her first accurate prediction did have something to do with
Harry (I also think the centaurs know what it is!).

Ebony said eloquently (as always!):

> I should say here that I don't think that Lily was the only reason why Harry
> did not die that night... in fact, the Narnian idea ("deep magic from the
> dawn of time") never occurred to me until I began reading this list.  I may
> have bought it after reading CoS and PS/SS, but PoA and GoF killed that idea
> for me.  This may be a somewhat unpopular view on this list, but I believe
> there's something about Harry himself that cause V's downfall.  The
> wizarding world thinks so.
>
I definitely agree with the "Super-Harry" theories too.  Lily *cannot*
have been the only witch to die trying to save her child.  Her love &
sacrifice gave him a "layer of protection" -- but it didn't necessarily
give him the power to cause Voldy's curse to rebound on Voldy, thereby
zapping Voldy of strength & power.  No .... I think there's something
*special* about Harry, something that was prophesied and something Voldy
didn't count on.  I think he continually under-estimates Harry, and this
will result in his eventual downfall.  I think Harry has (and *will*
retain) a sense of decency, modesty, caring concern for fellow
human-beings & all sorts of good traits, *even if* he turns out to be
extraordinary.

I do agree that he didn't do anything terribly extraordinary magic-wise
to survive the final encounters in SS & CoS.  But, by PoA, we are seeing
some more powerful things out of Harry.  IMO, this will only increase as
he matures.  Remember in GoF when they are practicing banishing charms
-- Hermione's cushions are going exactly where they need to go (no
surprise), Ron's are going everywhere but the target, and Harry was
surprised to see his 2nd cushion land neatly on top of Hermione's (his
1st one having gone off-target IMO because he wasn't focusing.  I think
when he focuses his innate abilities, he will garner even more
strength.

> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever
> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR
> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

I don't think we have enough information.  Like others, I think JKR is
just trying to be vague about whether any of the major characters will
or won't die, most especially the Troika.  My gut instinct though is
that he won't die.  I don't think it will be a "happily ever after"
ending though.  I think he'll be war-weary & battle-scarred so to speak
(no surprise that I don't subscribe to OBHWF).

> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they
> feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset
> when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or
> charmed) by Dumbledore?

I think there must be some compelling reason why they've kept him (I
rather suspect threats more than charm).  I can't help wondering if the
combination of ancient magic & the threat of Voldy are tied in here.  I
couldn't help but notice on my last go through SS that when Harry
suggests that the Dursleys leave him by himself while they take Dudley
to the zoo for his birthday, Petunia responds, "What & come back to find
the house in ruins?"  We (and Harry) assume she means that *he* would
destroy the house if left alone in it (we later wonder if she was
referring to accidental magic), but now ... I wonder if instead she is
referring to the Potters' home and/or Voldy.  He is never (as far as we
know) far outside the physical presence of a Dursley (Dudley when they
are at school) or Mrs. Figg.  Is this significant?  :::shrugs:::  I
dunno.

> 5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who
> will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or
> someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm sure
> the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock
> yourselves out.

In the canon -- probably no one.  Ultimately?  Hermione.  Of course.
<g>

> 6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and
> the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's
> personality?

Ebony said it first, but I thought it immediately when I read your
questions.  Harry didn't *choose* them.  Friendships like that just
happen.

Not surprisingly, I also firmly concur with Ebony's view that Ron is not
Harry's "best" best friend & Hermione is just an after-thought, a 2nd
best friend but of less importance overall.  I too would have liked some
exploration of the Harry & Hermione friendship.  The excerpt from The
New Yorker article was nice as far as how Harry initially became friends
with Ron.  But, he most definitely has just as good a friend in Hermione
as he does in Ron.  I absolutely positively will never buy the notion
that Harry would choose Ron over Hermione -- he says it best himself at
the bottom of the Lake in the 2nd Task.

I may chime in with more thoughts as they occur to me (and as long as
baby bides her time in there)!  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 20 01:58:46 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:58:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia and Lily
In-Reply-To: <9bnk4v+kq75@eGroups.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010419134852.00a89ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010419215846.009394a0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17175

At 09:08 PM 4/19/01 -0000, you wrote:
>Usually they spoil him rotten, but when 
>it comes to magic, I don't think the Dursleys behave in character. I 
>wonder why..

I think they are perfectly in character. The Dursleys are portrayed as
being very provincial and narrow-minded. Their intense fear of magic is not
that different from some people's reactions to the Harry Potter books and
their presumed promotion of 'witchcraft'. The Dursleys may spoil Dudley
rotten, but there's no way Vernon is going to let witchcraft taint him or
his family.

Incidently, I wonder why it's Vernon, as opposed to Petunia, who's so
fanatically against magic. Perhaps it is, as some people mentioned earlier,
that the family has had a lot of contact with the wizarding community over
the years. Or maybe JKR really meant for his conventionality to explain his
behaviour entirely. 

Samaporn



From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 02:04:45 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:04:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <024301c0c93e$46cefee0$e9e61b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17176

O.K. I have to think about the other questions some more, but my take
on #4 is:

4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they
feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset
when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or
charmed) by Dumbledore?

I think the main reason for taking in Harry was, they don't want
anyone to know about Petunia's "abnormal" sister. If Harry goes to an
orphanage, then the truth comes out in one way or another, but if they
take him in, then they can control the information that Harry receives
and gives out. The Dursley's also thought, they could crush the magic
out of Harry.

Rena -- off to Denver for the weekend







From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 02:11:55 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:11:55 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025001c0c93f$47699bc0$e9e61b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17177

Great Character sketch! Joywitch

1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a
million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did
he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it
about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill
Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that
only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or
that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS
IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)

I'm going to lump #1 and 2 together, theorizing that Trelawney's first
correct prediction was Voldemort's downfall through the hands of a
Potter, which brings me to the first question. V heard about the
prediction and decided to kill off James and Harry (which would also
explain, why he said Lily didn't have to die. She is a Potter only by
marriage) V only kills Lily because she is trying to protect Harry.

I don't think that it's only a child born to the Potter that could
defeat V. I think it has to do with the old magic that was invoked. In
theory, any mother protecting her child the way Lily protected Harry
would have been able to bring about V's downfall had V attacked a
child under such protection.

Just my 2 knuts

Rena -- really off to Denver now







From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Fri Apr 20 02:18:32 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:18:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DA5@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010419221832.00985434@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17178

At 10:53 AM 4/19/01 -0400, you wrote:
>> No teacher would interfere with another teacher's detention
>> assignment.  Snape wouldn't have tried.

>Why wouldn't he? The closest one would come to textual evidence for this
>would be Hagrid's statement that Draco had to take the punishment assigned
>to him - but it doesn't mean that if Snape wanted to keep him out of the
>forebidden forrest, he couldn't've gone to Minnie and asked for Draco to be
>reassigned to gutting frogs or something 

That would mean that Snape actually -cared- about Draco so much so that he
would actually go out of his way to do something about the detention. I
just can't picture Snape as being actively benevolent. In all likelihood
however, Snape probably wasn't even informed about what Hagrid had planned
for Draco to do.

Samaporn



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 02:48:49 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:48:49 -0000
Subject: Headmaster Who?
Message-ID: <9bo82h+74t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17179

I have the feeling that we may have discussed this in the past, but 
I'm about to mention again anyway. 

It doesn't seem very likely that Karkaroff will return as Headmaster 
of Durmstrang next year now that's Voldemort back. So who will take 
over the position? 

Snape perhaps? Could this be the thing that Dumbledore was asking him 
to do? Will he leave Hogwarts and potions to go and sway Durmstrang 
students to the side of light?
 
Did I actually have an original thought or merely a recollection of 
some long forgotten thread?

So many questions...

Scott




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 03:01:01 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:01:01 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why do adults read Harry Potter?
Message-ID: <10.b8f566a.2811006d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17180

Sabrina,

I am a 40 year old legal assistant.  I participate in an annual 
comedy/variety show that is a fundraising effort for diversity scholarships 
to SMU law school (shameless plug - we were on the local news last night in a 
"Hometown Heroes" segment).  The title of our show is always some kind of 
legalese pun on something that's a hot or trendy part of current popular 
culture (e.g., The Lex Files (2 years ago) and Must Sue TV (this year and I 
don't really like it).  Last year's title was:  Harry Potter and the 
Disappearing Miranda Rights.  

I had not heard of the Harry Potter series last April when the show title was 
announced, but since the title is the basis for all the fun in-jokes in the 
program, I thought I had better check it out.

Fast forward one year ....

I've not only read all the books multiple times, I've got the games and 
t-shirts and coffee mugs.  I've sucked my entire family and almost all of my 
friends and coworkers into the Potterverse. I had a Harry Potter party for my 
40th birthday! I've scribbled a very silly HP skit for this year's show.  I 
spend all my free time reading emails on the HPforGrownups mailing list.

Why?

Because the books are just that good.

Because Ms. Rowling has created four wonderful books that allow me to escape 
into a world of fantasy and wonder and she has done so without ever 
condescending or talking down to her readers.  There's a perfect combination 
of humor and scariness in the books.  Her characters are complex and 
interesting.  The questions and moral choices she presents in her stories are 
well worth considerable pondering.  

And mostly because reading these books has made me happy.

Hope your papers turns out well!

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From airasrp at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 03:19:25 2001
From: airasrp at yahoo.com (Sarah R. Pripas)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:19:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry Character Sketch
Message-ID: <20010420031925.87040.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17181

Hi--

Jenny wrote:

I guess because I have such faith in Harry (I do love
him to death, 
you know), I can't accept that he is 'just average'. 
He had two 
parents who were well respected in the wizard
community, and in PoA, 
there is mention of how exceptionally bright James
was.  Remember, he 
was able to become an animagus as well as help make
the Marauders' Map 
at a young age.  Some of that must have been passed
down to Harry. 

Good argument.  :)  But currently, Harry doesn't
really demonstrate magical abilities that are
extremely above-average.  (except for Quidditch and
DATDA, like I mentioned before.)  His parents'
accomplishments set aside, there is little textual
evidence (IMHO, of course) that illustrates *Harry* as
being exceptionally powerful in areas other than the
ones mentioned.        

Jenny wrote:
Voldie can't want Harry dead from hatred alone.

Agreed.  Voldy's an egotist.  How humiliating for
him--to be defeated by a one year old boy!  He wants
to prove to the world that he really *is* more
powerful than Harry.  He wants to be able to say "Hey,
you all thought this little boy was better than me. 
Well guess what?  You're all wrong."

Jenny wrote:
Nah - people need to see him as something beyond 'the
famous Harry 
Potter'.  Quidditch helps that happen.    

Agreed.  :)

Jenny wote:
Anyway, thanks for responding.

It's been a pleasure.  :)  I ought to step out of
lurkdom more often.

Sarah

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 20 03:32:36 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:32:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA- Exams in May
References: <9bltji+tdqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADFADD4.74FA34E6@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17182

Hi All!!!!

I don't know if anyones responded to this, but....

meckelburg at foni.net wrote:

> Dear Pupils!
>
> Due to a time- problem, the summer- holidays have been extendet
> to an unusual length this summer ;-)
> Hogwarts staff has therefore decided to put you through occasional
> Exams to keep you on the subject.
> The first Exam is the  'Defence against the dark Arts' and will take
> place
> in the first week of May. It will be posted on the main board.
> Your computers will be hexed with a *No-cheating Charm*
> You are advised to keep your books under your desks during the exams.
> Please send your answers off-list, for individual answers :-)
>
> The examination- results will be passed on to the coming DADA-Teacher,
> so that
> he knows which subjects are to be repeated when school begins at the
> end of
> summer ( whenever that is (LOL))
>
> I hope you use your time for revising
> Enjoy your extended holidays, but look forward to the start of term
> Yours
> Minerva Mc. Gonagall
> (Mecki)

I'm insanely curious! Can't wait to take the exam!!!

Jamieson

(who dreads exams, but this one is about HP so it can't be all that bad)
--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 03:46:12 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:46:12 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch!  
In-Reply-To: <F100MMDiwQn7KuA66Sk000077fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bobe4+op4m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17183

This post contains
1-Wonderful Character Sketch (Thanks Joywitch!)
2-Lots of thoughtful and witty things that Ebony wrote.
3-My comments


Ebony wrote:
"Yes, yes, I know all about D's famous quote about our choices making 
us who we are, and not our abilities.  I don't think his quote can be 
used to prove that Harry's an ordinary wizarding kid or even a Squib 
who got his powers from Voldemort (as was recently proposed here.)  A 
gifted child has a  different set of choices to make than a child who 
is average, based on his/her abilities."

--I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree with you. 
(BTW, I was the one who suggest Harry might've been a squib had it 
not been for Voldemort...) I have the feeling that there is something 
special about Harry. Whether it was there before Halloween 1981 or 
not, and whether it is simply his mother's gift (an imprint of magic 
and love) upon Harry I don't know. 

I do however know that I don't at all like the theory that there is 
something innate in Harry that means he WILL kill Voldemort. The idea 
that no matter what choices Harry makes he will still defeat 
Voldemort because that's his destiny and his fate, and there's no way 
he can escape it. I know you weren't saying this, per se, which is 
why I said I didn't disagree with you but...

I just think that Dumbledore's famous comment about choices and 
abilities is one of the morals at the heart of the whole series and 
giving that Harry has a great unalterable destiny lessens it's 
importance. This doesn't mean that the quote proves Harry is a 
regular wizard. Just as the Trelawny's first prediction scenario 
doesn't prove the flip side of this argument (that Harry is indeed 
special).

When it comes down to it I think we are basically in agreement. 
Whether Harry has a "specialness" or not it is still up to him how he 
uses that, and whether it is for good and evil. Neither extreme 
(Harry regular wizard; superpower) is perfect and the two can, IMO, 
work together quite well.

Joywitch:
"2. What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it
about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill
Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that
only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or
that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS
IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)"

Ebony:
"See above.  And yes, it has been discussed to death."

--I still say that Trelawny's first prediction was that no matter 
what the outcome of the book a bunch of nutters (like ourselves) 
would be utterly obsessed! ;-)

It HAS been discussed to death, but it seems to be almost universally 
(well that might be stretching it) agreed that the first prediction 
has something to do with why V wanted the Potter's namely Harry in 
1981. Whether it was because he was the Heir of Gryffindor or any 
number of other reasons...

Joywitch wrote:
3. Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever
after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR
indicated in any way how Harry will end up?"

"It's too early to tell. Can't we have some middle ground between 
"certain doom" and "riding off into the sunset", though?  :)"

--I agree with Ebony that it's too early to tell as far as canon 
evidence. Maybe you could count the fact that JKR said that the books 
would get darker. That however is a paper thin arguement at best.  If 
I had to choose though I would much rather see it end tragically than 
with an "every thing is perfect" storybook ending. Just my opinion 
though. 

(I'm not sure why I'd rather have a tragedy. Sounds terribly morose 
doesn't it? Most of my favourite books are tragedies if that counts 
for anything. I'll have to think about it...)

Joywitch wrote: 
"4. Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they
feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset
when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or
charmed) by Dumbledore?"

Ebony:
"I'm starting to wonder if the Dursleys are being paid to keep 
Harry.  I  know, there's no evidence in canon for it.  But Vernon and 
Petunia's hatred  of wizards might not extend to refusing to take 
their gold."

--I wouldn't put it past them at all. My guess is that somehow 
Dumbledore made them keep Harry...I'd like to think that he didn't 
result to blackmail (Do you want all of your muggle friends to know 
what type of freaks you come from?) or threats (you'll all turn into 
toads if you don't keep Harry). 

Maybe not exactly like that, but there must of been something.

Joywitch wrote:
"5. Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who
will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or
someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm sure
the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock
yourselves out."

Ebony:
"Hopefully, no one."
--NO ONE?!?! I agree though, not because I wouldn't like to see him 
in a relationship, but because I doubt it'll happen in canon.

Joywitch wrote:
6. What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and
the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's
personality?

--Ebony and Penny said he didn't choose them. I wouldn't say that he 
didn't choose them altogether. True they were, to a certain extent 
"thrown together by circumstance", but he still chooses to become 
friends with them, he certainly didn't have to... 

"I would have liked to see more analysis of the Harry-Hermione 
*friendship*.  :)"

--Tomorrow perhaps?

Joywitch wrote:
"7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows how
to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have
something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not
only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born
Quidditch superstar?"

--Well he is the protagoist of the novels which also bear his name.  
Even so I actually do think it is a bit of stretch. We'd not be as 
lenient if Ron (or some other side character) had all of Harry's 
talents and he nothing. Then again if so the books wouldn't be about 
Harry Potter but about that person.

Happy Harry Fortnight!

Scott





From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 01:35:20 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:35:20 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Its Harry Fortnight!
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1319oh46YiufL0000d7b4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17184

Hi inyron! What a great post - I have found this group makes me look at 
things in more depth too.
<big snip>

>But, If Harry had sat alone with,
>say, Seamus, during the ride to Hogwarts, do you think he and Ron
>would still be best friends?
Hmm, good question.  I think they're complimentary.  Each has something the 
other wants.  Ron wants to stand out and be admired, Harry wants to belong 
and be part of a family.  Each can give the other a bit of what they have by 
association, and also the insight that there are drawbacks to being famous, 
or to family life.  Each is also accepting of the other (despite the 
*occasional* quarrel).  I think they make a great team, and would naturally 
have gravitated together, even if they hadn't met so early on.

>*Why does he keep referring to Ron as "Weasley" in FB?

Because that's how schoolboys address each other, especially when trading 
insults, friendly or otherwise.  Notice it's always "Malfoy", never "Draco", 
and Malfoy never uses anyone's first name, not even his friends', reflecting 
the lack of warmth in his relationships.  Or perhaps the fact that Ron and 
Harry use first names shows how close they are.  Now scores of ex-schoolboys 
are going to post that they always addressed their friends by their given 
names ;), but this view would certainly be consistent with the slightly 
old-fashioned school-story ambience which the books evoke.

>*I love Sirius as much as the next girl, but how did he become the
>most important grown-up in Harry's life about an hour after breaking
>Ron's leg?  And acting, you know, all yellow-teethed and insane?
>After learning who MWPP were, you'd think he'd have a greater
>appreciation for Lupin too.

I suppose so.  I think Harry does appreciate Lupin, but Sirius is just the 
kind of not-too-demanding, glamourous, cool, father-figure Harry wants just 
now.  A father-figure who was able to be around more of the time might be a 
bit much to cope with all of a sudden.  I know he wants to go and live with 
Sirius, but he is not devastated when he can't.  Sirius is also the 
anti-Vernon - he's a wizard, owns (or owned - what happened to it?) a flying 
motorbike, has long hair and is on the wrong side of the law.  Perfect.  I 
think Lupin's a little too old-looking and acting (though he and Sirius must 
be of an age) and a little too tired and sad for the role.  Finally, Sirius 
was the closest to Harry's real father - "You'd have thought Black and 
Potter were brothers!...Inseparable!", as Harry has heard Flitwick say in 
the Three Broomsticks.  They are compared to the Weasley twins in closeness 
and capacity for trouble.  He has seen them in the same photo, Sirius was 
his father's best man and is Harry's own godfather.  Sirius tells Harry he 
would have died for James and Lily, thus linking himself with the one thing 
Harry has always known about his parents - they're dead.  It's as close as 
Harry can get to having his own father back.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 04:51:26 2001
From: rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com (rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:51:26 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
Message-ID: <9bof8e+h5l0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17185

The Harry Potter phenomena has reached an all time high; and not just 
in the english speaking world. The HP books heve also been translated 
in French and Spanish (as far as I know). I live in Puerto Rico and 
over here, all four books can be found in english and at least the 
first two in Spanish and French. Personally I prefer to read the 
books in english; even though spanish is my main language. It's 
amazing how JK Rowling has managed to reach so many people with her 
books even through the language barrier.
Karumi 




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 05:15:13 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:15:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Multicultural Harry Potter
References: <9bof8e+h5l0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17186

I was in Austria last semester, and read all the books in German while I was there.  The german translation of GoF (Harry Potter und der Feuerkelch) came out in October to almost as much hoopla as over here -- every bookstore (esp. Libro, which has posters *everywhere*) was decked out  with stuff and the kids all showed up in cute little costumes and fake scars and got their pictures in the paper.  It was a funny feeling, seeing everything a second time around, with all the same trappings, just a different language.  I enjoyed it.
What I found especially interesting was how many personal names were left alone.  The only name that was changed was Hermione, for which "Hermine" is used -- oddly enough, the French form of the name.  So how come the French edition I saw had "Hermione?" <g>.  Just wondering.

Just for fun, let's see who figures out what bit (from der Stein der Weisen <g>) this is:
"Dann mach Feuer!"  ?chzte Harry.
"Ja -- nat?rlich -- aber hier gibt es kein Holz!" schrie Hermine h?nderingend.
"BIST DU VERR?CKT GEWORDEN?" br?llt Ron.  "BIST DU NUN EINE HEXE ODER NICHT?"
10 points for your house if you get it.  

Abbie, who loves anything in German, even if the translation isn't the best.  
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, 20 April, 2001 12:51 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Multicultural Harry Potter


  The Harry Potter phenomena has reached an all time high; and not just 
  in the english speaking world. The HP books heve also been translated 
  in French and Spanish (as far as I know). I live in Puerto Rico and 
  over here, all four books can be found in english and at least the 
  first two in Spanish and French. Personally I prefer to read the 
  books in english; even though spanish is my main language. It's 
  amazing how JK Rowling has managed to reach so many people with her 
  books even through the language barrier.
  Karumi 


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From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 05:45:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:45:52 -0000
Subject: Why I lurk AND a question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104192146490.13784-100000@caliondo.dd.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <9boieg+ip5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17187

> For me the main reason is that it takes too long to write it down in
> english and if I have questions I usually discuss with my 
boyfriend. It is
> much easier :-) Usually I am satisfied with just reading your 
discussions.
****************
Maybe you can get him involved by asking him the questions and having 
him translate and type them out for you. Just an idea. I am glad that 
you posted this time. Thanks for your input.
****************
> 
> No, it is not the same just to surf. Most websites only give one 
persons
> opinions, at a list people are discussing and more ideas come up. 
It is
> more interesting to read a list than a webpage even if you don't
> participate yourself.
******************
Exactly!! Your opinion is just as important as anyone else's in this 
group, though. Do not be worried about your English grammar. We all 
got into a long discussion about what spelling and grammar mistakes 
we hate to see. We were mostly picking on our fellow American & 
British speaking people, for whom English is supposed to be a first 
language. We have MUCH more tolerance and forgiveness and respect for 
those who strive to make English a secondary language. Post away... 
we will sort it out... or ask you about it.
********************
> 
> But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night 
when I
> was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it, but 
why is
> it people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys. Why not 
someone
> from Ministry of Magic?
> 
> -- 
> // Lea

This same question bothered me. My guess is that we will find the 
answer to it in the next book, "The Order of the Phoenix". My guess 
is that Dumbledore, James Potter, and some others all belonged to OOP 
and we will find out this answer and many more exciting facts about 
them. (I would tell you that this was a great question ... but I will 
let someone else do that... since it was my question too) :)))

Doreen
********************





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 06:05:57 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:05:57 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bojk5+89s6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17188

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:

> Just for fun, let's see who figures out what bit (from der Stein der 
Weisen <g>) this is:
> "Dann mach Feuer!"  ?chzte Harry.
> "Ja -- nat?rlich -- aber hier gibt es kein Holz!" schrie Hermine 
h?nderingend.
> "BIST DU VERR?CKT GEWORDEN?" br?llt Ron.  "BIST DU NUN EINE HEXE 
ODER NICHT?"
> 10 points for your house if you get it.  
> 

Ah, that's the bit that ends with one of my favorite lines ever... 
(while in the pit in the Devil's Snare)

"ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"

(hehe)

Jen (who doesn't speak German, and who has been sorted into so many 
houses that all should get points)






From rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 06:15:45 2001
From: rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com (rinoa_gmm at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:15:45 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bok6h+h3ld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17189

Same over here; I wasn't a fan by the time GoF came out; but my 
cousin was and he had a hard time finding the book because of the 
demand. But here most people buy the english version rather than the 
spanish one (like me) maybe someday I'll get a spanish copy to see 
the differences.

I don't understand German so I have no idea what Harry, Hermione and 
Ron are talking about. 






From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 20 06:17:47 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:17:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Art
References: <9bltji+tdqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ADFD48B.6142ED07@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17190

Hello All,

Just an observation....

I've been flipping through the pages of my HP desk top calander, and I've noticed something. In a lot of the pictures, Harry looks like he has smelt something bad, or is constipated....I'm not sure which...

Has anyone else noticed this? Or am I just a delusional guy who hates shift work, and hates being up at two in the morning?

Hugs
Jamieson


--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 06:34:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:34:13 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <003101c0c912$cee9d880$5aeb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9bol95+92kr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17191

> 
>   Please don't be paranoid!  I'm just kidding!  I was actually on a 
list once on which a few members expressed concern about lurkers, 
fearing that they were there to spy on the discussions.
*********************
Haha ... No, I am not paranoid. (looks over her shoulder) It is just 
that (was that something moving in the corner?) I know that there are 
about 1200 people on this list and (what was that noise?) I do NOT 
see posts from anyone but people whose names have become very 
familiar. I almost know what some of them are going to say before I 
read it. I would like to see more people participate. (so would the 
moderators)
*********************

>   I lurk mostly for two reasons: 1) I love Harry Potter and love to 
read discussion by other adults about the books...and 2)I, for a lot 
of reasons (chronic illnesses, not enough time to spend online) 
cannot participate in a lot of discussions.  So I do the next best 
thing, I "listen" to what other people are saying.
*********************
Those are some unquestionably good reasons for you to lurk. If you 
ever feel the urge to toss your two cents in, please do so. We all 
love Harry Potter too and we also love to read discussion by other 
adults, including yourself. :)
*********************
>   I think that it is made reasonably clear that, for us, there are 
very few new topics anymore, and so newbies are certain that their 
question has already discussed and are afraid of the impatience and 
exasperation it may cause.  I've been here for several months and I 
still worry about bringing up a topic that has already been discussed.
*********************
Well, the way that I look at it is this: 
1) "Goblet of Fire" has been out since July 2000. That is almost a 
year. 
2)The next book is not coming out until next year. Another year.
3)The movie is not coming out until November. That is 7 months away.

If we do NOT discuss ANYthing which has possibly been discussed EVER 
before, then what WILL we do for the next 7 months? Sit here and 
twiddle our collective thumbs?

Somebody please jump right in and correct me if I am wrong, but is 
this NOT a discussion group? Does that not mean to talk with others, 
to express our opinions, to hear the other person's views, to agree, 
disagree, or not respond at all?

I think that it is a really handy tool to have the FAQ list. If a 
person just simply wants to know the answer to a question, pure and 
simple, they can go to the FAQ list or type in their key word in the 
search engine.

If, however, the person would like a personal answer to their own 
question, even if it has been asked before, then they should be able 
to post that question and not be intimidated by anyone in the group, 
even if that person spent six weeks discussing that very topic last 
July or whenever. 

Is there a limit as to how many times a specific question *may* be 
asked or answered? It is not as though we are limited by space, is 
it? We are not compiling material for a research paper or something 
similar, are we? 

When I first came to this group, I tried very hard to *conform* to 
the standards. If I had a question or an idea, I first went to the 
FAQ to see if it was there. If not, I would try to search the 
thousands of letters to find it. Do you veterans realize what a job 
that is? At the moment, there are 17189 letters in this group's 
files. (not iincluding those IN the archives) By the time I got done 
doing all of that, if I had not completely forgotten what my question 
was, or had not been bored to death, or bleary eyed, I would come 
back to ask my question and find that I was now behind about 30 
posts. It was sort of like chasing a train to catch a ride! I gave up 
and just started asking questions and stating my ideas.

I figure that if there are people who  do not want to answer it 
because they have tired of the subject, then they don't have to 
answer it. That is also an option.

If they know where to send me to read letters on exactly my question, 
I hope that they will do so, but do it kindly, not rudely.

There have been times when I thought about answering a newbie's 
question, but then I didn't because someone told them that it had 
been hashed & rehashed back in letter #342 or such. Now, I regret not 
speaking up. I may have missed a chance to make a new friend.

Doreen, who likes hashing & rehashing and finds it a curious thing 
that the same people who dislike hashing & rehashing, are the same 
people who have read Harry Potter dozens of times. 





From meckelburg at foni.net  Fri Apr 20 06:42:06 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:42:06 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bolnu+l2gc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17192

Hi,
I am German, so I won't participate in your "what is it"? 
I only noticed the HP- series, when I heard everything about the 
hysteria in Britain when GoF came out there. Then there was a report 
on TV saying many adults read the books and I read bokks 1-3 in only 
ONE WEEK !! That was 3 weeks before "der Feuerkelch"(GoF) came out in 
German, so I bought the Eglish version, because I didn't want to wait 
that long.
I had enjoyed the german books, but they really are more children's 
books than I had expected. With GoF in English I realised why adults 
really get obsessed with them.
JKR's books can be read in about 30 languages I think, but 
translations are always a compromise, and should be awoided if 
possible! 
(The german books have, as I posted before, some mistakes, that may 
turn out to be really important )

Mecki
(glad the English-version of OoP will come out months before the 
translation :-) )
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> I was in Austria last semester, and read all the books in German 
while I was there.  The german translation of GoF (Harry Potter und 
der Feuerkelch) came out in October to almost as much hoopla as over 
here -- every bookstore (esp. Libro, which has posters *everywhere*) 
was decked out  with stuff and the kids all showed up in cute little 
costumes and fake scars and got their pictures in the paper.  It was a 
funny feeling, seeing everything a second time around, with all the 
same trappings, just a different language.  I enjoyed it.
> What I found especially interesting was how many personal names were 
left alone.  The only name that was changed was Hermione, for which 
"Hermine" is used -- oddly enough, the French form of the name.  So 
how come the French edition I saw had "Hermione?" <g>.  Just 
wondering.
> 
> Just for fun, let's see who figures out what bit (from der Stein der 
Weisen <g>) this is:
> "Dann mach Feuer!"  ?chzte Harry.
> "Ja -- nat?rlich -- aber hier gibt es kein Holz!" schrie Hermine 
h?nderingend.
> "BIST DU VERR?CKT GEWORDEN?" br?llt Ron.  "BIST DU NUN EINE HEXE 
ODER NICHT?"
> 10 points for your house if you get it.  
> 
> Abbie, who loves anything in German, even if the translation isn't 
the best.  
> starling823 at y...
> 69% obsessed with HP and loving it
> "Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all 
we do here!"
>           -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: rinoa_gmm at h... 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Friday, 20 April, 2001 12:51 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Multicultural Harry Potter
> 
> 
>   The Harry Potter phenomena has reached an all time high; and not 
just 
>   in the english speaking world. The HP books heve also been 
translated 
>   in French and Spanish (as far as I know). I live in Puerto Rico 
and 
>   over here, all four books can be found in english and at least the 
>   first two in Spanish and French. Personally I prefer to read the 
>   books in english; even though spanish is my main language. It's 
>   amazing how JK Rowling has managed to reach so many people with 
her 
>   books even through the language barrier.
>   Karumi 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>        
>        
> 
>   _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
>   From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted 
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to 
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
>   Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point your cyberbroomstick at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more 
details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> 
>   (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...) 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Fri Apr 20 06:49:00 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:49:00 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <9bo13q+f44v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bom4s+10ek8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17193

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "suzielynn.*" <misanthropicsocialite at h...> 
wrote:
> Aloha!
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person 
> that I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add 
> their questions or opinions to the list. 
> 

Bravo, Suzielynn. I second all your points.

I could be one of the most incorrigible lurkers on this list - not one
post since I joined last September or thereabouts.  I've often 
daydreamed about posting, but never taken it any further for a 
variety of reasons -

* Stage fright.  (I'm suffering from it now)  This list is so very, 
internationally, public - 1215 members and counting...

* Technical inexperience with discussion lists

* Lack of time.  There's only a few minutes a day I can devote to 
even reading the posts in peace & quiet, meaning I have to be much 
more selective than I'd like to and follow only the juiciest looking 
threads.  Actually participating is a pipedream, except during 
holidays.

* Two young boys (big fans themselves) looking over my shoulder and 
exclaiming 'Oh no Mum, not Harry Potter again!'  It's even more 
embarrassing since the banner on the site was changed to add the 
words '(Harry Potter)' to 'HP for Grownups'- my cover has been 
completely blown at home and at work.

* The sheer erudition, wit, and powers of argument of many members 
are a might intimidating. Haven't time to comb the archive for  
examples just now, but I remember some deep philisophical discussions 
where various members have aired their expertise in the fields of 
psychiatry, engineering, law, education, and more recently, 
literature appreciation - writing in the 'third person limited' etc.  
(This was really illuminating - thought I knew about points of view 
in literature, but learnt a bit)

* Nothing new for me to add - virtually every aspect of the books has 
been discussed in minute detail by now. Yet I still enjoy revisiting 
discussion topics when they resurface, expressed afresh by others.

* Some of the most active, persuasive and eloquent members of the 
group hold very steadfastly and vocally to views I can't agree 
with (mainly in regard to the 'shipping' discussions).  Not being a 
skilled debater or having time to muster evidence, I haven't so 
far been brave enough to pipe up and join in these debates - prefer 
to watch from the safety of the stands!

* the volume of messages is so high that I sometimes get the 
irrational feeling that by the time I have a message typed, someone 
else will have beaten me to it making the same point!

With all that said, sneaking onto this list has given me heaps of 
guilty enjoyment over the last few months. My thanks to all the 
founders, moderators and contributors for making it so good.

Cec


> I lurk because of many reasons.
> 
> a) The sheer volume of email on the list in combination with my 
> limited time prohibits me from posting as much as I'd like to.
> 
> b) Most of the time, my opinion on the issues being discussed has 
> already been stated by someone else in a far more articulate manner 
> than what I could express.
> 
> c) To be quite frank, I'm intimidated.  The majority of posters 
here 
> are, as the name of the group would indicate, "grownups", with 
> experience and definitive stances on the topics at hand, and I 
would 
> have a hard time, as a high school sophomore, offering my opinion 
> without a firm root in factual experiences and without sounding 
like 
> a bossy, know-it-all brat.  ^_^
> 
> > Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions 
> with 
> > lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's 
> > humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you? 
> 
> *meek voice* Yes.  *smacks self*  Auugh!  I'm debate captain!  I'm 
> not supposed to be afraid of confrontation!  ^_^
>  
> *there's a flock of seagulls in my basement.* --alicia/sue spinnet 
or 
> suzielynn.*




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 07:03:15 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:03:15 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <9bo13q+f44v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bomvj+v2n8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17194

> I lurk because of many reasons.
> 
> a) The sheer volume of email on the list in combination with my 
> limited time prohibits me from posting as much as I'd like to.
***********************
Suzielynn, have you tried changing your options? You can change them 
to getting no email or to just a digest. I like the no email option. 
I found that when the letters all came to my email inbox, that I had 
to read them all. Now, I go to the website and scan through the 
headers. If I find a topic which I like, I read it. If I do not like 
a topic, I skip it. I also limit my time as to how long I can spend. 
There IS life outside of HP4GU.
Doreen
*********************************
>b) Most of the time, my opinion on the issues being discussed has 
> already been stated by someone else in a far more articulate manner 
> than what I could express.
*********************************
OK, I can readily agree with the fact that there are some extremely 
intelligent people in this group, who state their opinions quite 
articulately, but ... that does not mean that nobody on the list 
would find your posts refreshingly interesting. 
Doreen
**********************************
> 
> c) To be quite frank, I'm intimidated.  The majority of posters 
here are, as the name of the group would indicate, "grownups", with 
> experience and definitive stances on the topics at hand, and I 
would  have a hard time, as a high school sophomore, offering my 
opinion without a firm root in factual experiences and without 
sounding like  a bossy, know-it-all brat.  ^_^

*****************
Why not give it a try? You certainly did not come off sounding like 
a "bossy, know-it-all brat" in this letter. 
Doreen
****************
> 
> > Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions 
> with 
> > lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's 
> > humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you? 
> 
> *meek voice* Yes.  *smacks self*  Auugh!  I'm debate captain!  I'm 
> not supposed to be afraid of confrontation!  ^_^
> suzielynn.*
*****************
Please do not be intimidated. There are some terrifically warm and 
friendly people in this group. I think that some of us are overly 
enthusiastic in our responses, and this has been mistaken 
for "superiority" or "sublime wisdom". Strip away the $5 words and we 
are all just big kids reading a children's book and loving it. 
Doreen
*****************




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 07:06:40 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:06:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Multicultural Harry Potter
References: <9bof8e+h5l0@eGroups.com> <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <002f01c0c968$7ae3b8e0$35e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17195




Just for fun, let's see who figures out what bit (from der Stein der
Weisen <g>) this is:
"Dann mach Feuer!"  chzte Harry.
"Ja -- natrlich -- aber hier gibt es kein Holz!" schrie Hermine
hnderingend.
"BIST DU VERRCKT GEWORDEN?" brllt Ron.  "BIST DU NUN EINE HEXE ODER
NICHT?"
10 points for your house if you get it.

this is from the sorcerer's stone:
"So light a fire," Harry chocked.
"Yes - off course - but there's no wood!" Herminone cried, wringing
her hands.
"HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"

Rena
Gryffindor




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Fri Apr 20 07:11:15 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie casting problems
Message-ID: <20010420071115.59D4536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17196

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010420/4a2f609d/attachment.ksh>

From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 07:12:21 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:12:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Multicultural Harry Potter
References: <9bolnu+l2gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c0c969$3f4046e0$35e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17197

(The german books have, as I posted before, some mistakes, that may
turn out to be really important )

Mecki,
I think I missed the mistakes if you pointed them out. I think I'll
have my niece bring the German translations with her when she comes to
visit me.

Rena





From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 07:28:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:28:52 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F84aEqxGGmNN790000f578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9boofk+g1c1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17198


<took a chain-saw to major part of letter>
> So, what do socks symbolise?  Love?  Freedom?  Redemption?  Anyway, 
you can 
> be sure they're NOT WHAT THEY SEEM!
**************************************
Your letter on socks was fantastic!!! Can you do the same with 
watches and clocks, also something which JKR seems to dwell on, as 
well as socks and the number twelve? I love your comments! 
Doreen
*******************************





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 08:28:11 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:28:11 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <3ADF8560.BFD7D91D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9borur+scmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17199

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amber wrote:
> 
> > The one who does not fit my mental image is the actors playing
> > Dumbledore and McGonagall. Dumbledore just looks...too Merliny 
for my
> > taste. I can't quite explain it, I hate the hair and the beard.
> 
> I've said it before. I'll say it again. Peter O'Toole should have 
been
> Dumbledore.
> 
> --Amanda, unrepentant for her one-liner in the face of such
> unimpeachable good sense

I'm not sure whether I agree about Peter O'Toole - I think that 
whoever suggested Derek Jacobi is closer to the mark.  I also thought 
about Ian McKellen, but he probably looks to sinister.  However, I am 
not happy about Richard Harris.  When at school, I was forced to sit 
through his Cromwell.  What grates on me more than anything is his 
voice - it makes me want to clear my throat all the time as it has a 
hoarse quality to it.  He was the same in Camelot.  When I read in 
the press about Richard Harris' demands being too high for WB, I was 
elated (Yes, perhaps he won't be playing Dumbledore afterall!) but 
these hopes were dashed.
Never mind, I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how he does.
BTW - before Maggie Smith was even cast I had thought that she would 
be perfect as Minerva McGonagall - that's piece of casting that I 
totally agree with.

Catherine
BTW should this be here, or on OT Chatter?




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 22:26:05 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:26:05 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch! (with FF snippet)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F51Hpe92dAOuAX0000f808@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17200

Joywitch wrote:
<snip excellent sketch>


> >4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they
> >feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset
> >when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or
> >charmed) by Dumbledore?

Someone (wish I could remember who) suggested the Dursleys can't *help* 
looking after Harry, albeit not very well.  I liked the idea that they 
didn't seem able to leave him behind on the Zoo trip, even though they 
didn't want him (Mrs Figg not being available).  They seem to hate having 
him around so much that even money would not be a strong enough incentive, 
and if fear was the motive, you'd think they'd feel safer without him.  
Besides, I can't imagine Dumbledore "putting the frighteners" on the 
Dursleys.  The enchantment theory would help explain the fact that they give 
him Christmas presents, and the ridiculous nature of them (yet they ignore 
his birthday), as fear or money, or a combination of the two, would lead 
them to give him reasonable presents, if any.  Their behaviour is too 
bizarre to be explained by rational motives.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From uibristol at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 09:12:02 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:12:02 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow
Message-ID: <9bouh2+kdkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17201

forgive me if this has already been raised or if i am missing the 
obvious...

but where does it say godric's hollow is a town--why can't it be a 
single residence.  The Burrow, the Malfoy Manor also have distinctive 
names, what's to say the hollow isn't another?




From meckelburg at foni.net  Fri Apr 20 10:21:19 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:21:19 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <005b01c0c969$3f4046e0$35e01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <9bp2iv+dtb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17202

Hi Rena!
If you understand german websites ( I don't know where you're 
from), try
www.harry-auf-deutsch.de
They tried to find the major or minor mistakes of GoF there.
One is for instance, that in the german version, Fleur never kisses 
Ron. And the "kiss for Ron" debate was quite long one down here, 
wasn't it?
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> (The german books have, as I posted before, some mistakes, that may
> turn out to be really important )
> 
> Mecki,
> I think I missed the mistakes if you pointed them out. I think I'll
> have my niece bring the German translations with her when she comes 
to
> visit me.
> 
> Rena




From ender_w at msn.com  Fri Apr 20 11:23:09 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:23:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Art
References: <9bltji+tdqo@eGroups.com> <3ADFD48B.6142ED07@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <004b01c0c98c$4817d620$8e690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17203

I heartily agree, Jamieson.  I have never bought anything containing that particular type of Harry Potter art because I don't care for it.  I personally think that Harry looks drugged or half asleep.  My favorite Harry Potter art is the Anime that I found on a website that someone else posted to the list a few months ago.  Unfortunately, I don't think that site is functioning anymore.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] HP Art


  Hello All,

  Just an observation....

  I've been flipping through the pages of my HP desk top calander, and I've noticed something. In a lot of the pictures, Harry looks like he has smelt something bad, or is constipated....I'm not sure which...

  Has anyone else noticed this? Or am I just a delusional guy who hates shift work, and hates being up at two in the morning?

  Hugs
  Jamieson


  --

  Transported to a surreal landscape,
  a young girl kills the first woman she
  meets and thenteams up with three complete
  strangers to kill again. - Marin County
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 11:44:49 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:44:49 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow
In-Reply-To: <9bouh2+kdkc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bp7fh+5aca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17204

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., uibristol at y... wrote:
> forgive me if this has already been raised or if i am missing the 
> obvious...
> 
> but where does it say godric's hollow is a town--why can't it be a 
> single residence.  The Burrow, the Malfoy Manor also have 
distinctive 
> names, what's to say the hollow isn't another?

I'm with you - I always thought that it was a house.  If it were a 
town, wouldn't it have to be predominantly Muggle?  Hogsmeade is the 
only fully wizarding village/town outside Diagon Alley isn't it?

Catherine




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 11:57:10 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:57:10 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow
In-Reply-To: <9bp7fh+5aca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bp86m+vf4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17205


> > but where does it say godric's hollow is a town--why can't it be a 
> > single residence. 

It?s a village. Check the HPPS scene in the hut on the rock with 
Hagrid telling Harry about his parents? death. There is a phrase like 
"and then Voldemort turned up in the village where James and Lily 
lived..". If it?s not in the chapter, don?t beat me, but I?m entirely 
sure that it is referred to soemwhere as being a village. I also think 
it is somewhere on the coast, because Hagrid assumes in PoA (when 
discussing Sirius Black in the pub with the teachers and Fudge) Black 
would have let baby Harry drown in the sea if he?d taken him away 
after his parents? death.




From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 12:02:27 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:02:27 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F84aEqxGGmNN790000f578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bp8gj+iifv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17206

hi this is my first posting so Woo Hoo!

yup socks are in the books a lot, but has anyone concidered that 
Dumbledorn wanted scocks(PS) because they could be used to free the 
house elves (an encredably powerful magical creacher) and so use them 
to fight against volt if he should ever return?

some one probably has

then many people probably decided it was a totaly rediculose idea, 
whch it is.

oh well at least i can say i have stopped lurking!  




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr 20 12:06:43 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:06:43 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bp8oj+vo9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17207

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> I was in Austria last semester, and read all the books in 
German while I was there.  
<snip>

Great! Where were you? I lived a couple of years in Fieberbrunn, 
near Kitzbuehel, and then five years in Munich.

I won't respond to your quiz question since I know German--but 
it's a scene that makes me laugh out loud every time I read it!!

I was thinking of getting the German versions, but am I right in 
thinking they are not out in paperback yet?

Also, speaking of visions of Harry, I really don't like the Harry on 
the cover of the German editions. *wry grin* He looks waaaay too 
...ummm...existential? like he ought to be wearing a black 
rollneck and smoking a cigarette?

To see hundreds of book covers from around the world, word 
lists in different languages, and the first page in dozens of 
languages, go to www.hpgalleries.com.

Ivis






From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 12:06:41 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:06:41 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9bp8oi+tuht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17208

Starling was wondering why they changed Hermione?s name in the German 
editions:

> What I found especially interesting was how many personal names were 
left alone.  The only name that was changed was Hermione, for which 
"Hermine" is used -- oddly enough, the French form of the name.  So 
how come the French edition I saw had "Hermione?" <g>.  Just 
wondering.

I think they did a good job keeping 99 % of the names as they are. I 
don?t think Herr Dumbledore would figure very well in the books... 
Probably a lot of hints get lost though, especially with the "speaking 
names".

Hermine is actually a German name, it?s not particularly french. 
Hermine is the female version of Hermann, which is a *very* German 
name, IMO. On the other hand, Hermione does work well in french 
(they?d pronounce it "Er-mee-on"), as I know  - not a french girl but 
-  a french ship by that name. 






From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 12:15:54 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:15:54 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <9bp8oj+vo9d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bp99q+l0f6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17209

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., irbohlen at e... wrote:

> Also, speaking of visions of Harry, I really don't like the Harry on 
> the cover of the German editions. *wry grin* He looks waaaay too 
> ...ummm...existential? like he ought to be wearing a black 
> rollneck and smoking a cigarette?


I?ve seen the German covers on hpgalleries.com and I must say I *LOVE* 
them! Their Harry looks very much as I imagined him (actually he looks 
like a boy I know who looks just like I imagine Harry, to be exact).

 Somehow I didn?t ever imagine Harry looking very childlike, since 
he?s so serious and thoughtful. I *HATE* the baby-face they?ve given 
him in the "official" WB-design covers and calendars. 

The UK covers are somewhere in the middle between the two extremes... 
So?s Daniel Radcliff, IMO. 





From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 12:24:10 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:24:10 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F84aEqxGGmNN790000f578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bp9pa+kro5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17210

 "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

a great analysis of the sock metaphor in HP, ending

> So, what do socks symbolise?  Love?  Freedom?  Redemption?  Anyway, 
you can  be sure they're NOT WHAT THEY SEEM!>


This is so great, Morag. I can hardly believe you took the time to 
re-read all four books just in order to find all the references to 
socks. Now that?s a true fan. Or did you feed the text into a computer 
and use the "search" option ;-)?

Anyone claiming the HP books are mainly about friendship OR good vs. 
evil OR growing up OR any of this moral stuff we don?t want to hear 
about any more should immediately be forced to read your post (all the 
others should, too).

Lea, who?s wearing a pair of rather thick dark blue woollen socks at 
the moment (what does she want to tell us by that?)




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Fri Apr 20 12:43:28 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:43:28 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <004b01c0c98c$4817d620$8e690f3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9bpatg+fub9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17211

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> My favorite Harry Potter art is the Anime that I found on a website 
>that someone else posted to the list a few months ago.  
>Unfortunately, I don't think that site is functioning anymore.


I like the anime drawings too, I think they're fantastic. One of the 
sites mentioned here a few months ago *has* shut down, but most of 
the artwork has been moved to:

http://www2.to/haripote

If you click on the japanese link above "works" it takes you to the 
art page.

Other anime sites that have been mentioned, but I think are worth 
mentioning again(!) are:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/miraiken/aliel/haripota/harrypotter.html

and

http://www.alpha-net.ne.jp/users2/akuru/harrypotter/har.index.htm

Gaynor




From inyron at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 12:48:05 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:48:05 -0000
Subject: Movie casting problems
In-Reply-To: <20010420071115.59D4536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9bpb65+rauc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17212

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> I agree completely. In each of the 4 current books, it states at 
least once that Harry is short and skinny for his age. It also points 
out clearly that Ron is a bit taller, gangly with long limbs.
> I too am displeased with the movie version of Draco. In the one 
still I've seen of him, he just doesn't look evil enough. He looks 
like a baby doll in my opinion. Isn't Draco suppose to have a pointed 
face? The actor playing him certainly doesn't, at least not in the 
picture I saw.
> I suppose we'll see how their acting abilities are.
> Also another thing that bothered me, is that I heard somewhere that 
in the movie, Harry's "lightning" scar is supposedly at his temple, 
and not his forehead. If true, that just irks me. 
> ~Echo

Whoa, wait, where did you hear that?  Is that the reason those people 
replaying stills over and over again haven't spotted it yet?  But why 
would they change it in any case- Harry's scar on his forehead has 
become so well know.

I wasn't too pleased with the Ron-choice at first, but the seconds of 
trailer footage have convinced me.  He's just so cute there.  And the 
expression on his face is so *Ron*.  I would have been more upset if 
they had gotton a tall enough actor, but gotton that wrong.

inyron

one of those people replaying stills.






From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Fri Apr 20 13:04:54 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:04:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie casting problems
Message-ID: <20010420130454.94481274F@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17213

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010420/25d86e62/attachment.ksh>

From gaynor at cheerful.com  Fri Apr 20 13:11:05 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:11:05 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <9bpatg+fub9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpch9+2omt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17214

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:

> I like the anime drawings too, I think they're fantastic. One of 
the 
> sites mentioned here a few months ago *has* shut down, but most of 
> the artwork has been moved to:
> 
> http://www2.to/haripote
> 

Sorry, a better link for this is:

http://www22.cds.ne.jp/~ghy/harry/work/work.html

Gaynor




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 11:35:17 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:35:17 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] a teacup of frogspawn (was Re: Dursleys)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F141oN0fC1npbm0000d940@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17215

Margaret supplied apposite quote:
>
>	    "You =knew=?" said Harry.  "You =knew= I'm a --
>	a wizard?"
>	    "Knew?" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly.  "=Knew!=
>	Of course we knew!  How could you not be, my dratted
>	sister being what she was?  Oh, she got a letter just
>	like that and disappeared off to that -- that =school=
>	-- and came home every vacation with her pockets full
>	of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats.  I was the
>	only one who saw her for what she was -- a freak!
>	But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this
>	and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in
>	the family!"
>	    She stopped to draw a deep breath and then went
>	ranting on.  It seemed she had been wanting to say all
>	this for years.

Something I spotted on my nth re-read of PoA:  When Harry and Ron visit 
Zonko's, they leave -

"their pockets bulging with Dungbombs, Hiccough Sweets, Frog Spawn Soap and 
a Nose-Biting Teacup apiece."

Someone (sorry, can't credit) shrewdly spotted that if Lily did turn teacups 
into rats on a regular basis, she'd have been in danger of expulsion for 
breaking the rules on under-age magic out of school.  But what if she'd only 
brought home a few Zonko's products?  It would be just like Petunia to 
over-react, and it paints a better picture of Lily too.
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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 13:47:13 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:47:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <001501c0c958$e43d46e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <20010420134713.84838.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17216

--- Starling <starling823 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just for fun, let's see who figures out what bit
> (from der Stein der Weisen <g>) this is:
> "Dann mach Feuer!"  chzte Harry.
> "Ja -- natrlich -- aber hier gibt es kein Holz!"
> schrie Hermine hnderingend.
> "BIST DU VERRCKT GEWORDEN?" brllt Ron.  "BIST DU
> NUN EINE HEXE ODER NICHT?"
> 10 points for your house if you get it.  

That's an easy one.  "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?!",
dealing with the killer plant guarding the Stone. :) 
One of my personal fave scenes.  "'There's no wood.' 
Honestly." <g>

10 points to Gryffindor!!



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 14:03:16 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <9bp8oi+tuht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010420140316.8782.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17217


--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
  So 
> how come the French edition I saw had "Hermione?"
> <g>.  Just 
> wondering.
> 
> 
> Hermine is actually a German name, its not
> particularly french. 
 IMO. On the other hand, Hermione does work
> well in french 
> (theyd pronounce it "Er-mee-on"), as I know  - not
> a french girl but 
> -  a french ship by that name. 
I believe Hermione would be the French name. In any
case, Jean Racine, a French playwright from the 17th
century, wrote a play about the Trojan war called
"Andromaque" and there's a character named Hermione
(Helen of Troy's daughter) in it. So at least the name
exists in French literature.

Annd (BA in French literature)

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From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Apr 20 13:45:02 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:45:02 -0700
Subject: No Story - Skeeter - Ron's grades - Prosecutors - Prefects - Torture -  More
Message-ID: <3AE03D5D.427F3513@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17218

Morag Traynor wrote:
> And an unspoken rule in all stories about magic (snip)
> You have to have priorities. Otherwise there's no story.

Even if there is no limit to the magic, there can still be a story. Just
have the mage conflict with an equally powerful mage or yearn for the
unforced love of someone who loves only a different person. Or struggle
with hiser own burdened conscience.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> Rita Skeeter is as annoying as her mosquito name implies.
>  (snip) (was she in Slytherin once?),

Skeeter (how DARE she steal MY name?) MUST have been in Slytherin: It's
pretty clear that her ambition is to get a lot of front-page ink (which
in turn leads to financial rewards, fame, and a certain degree of
power), and that she doesn't let any details like ethics, truth,
anti-trespassing laws get in between her and her ambition. That's the
Slytherin stereotype in a nutshell.

Florence asked:
> Incidentally how in the world did Hermione communicate
> with Rita - I've always assumed that animagi in animal
> form couldn't speak themselves.

Presumably Hermione spoke and Beetle Skeeter tapped her antenna on the
glass, once for No and twice for Yes.

Demelza wrote:
> We are told that Hermione has the highest marks in that
> year, but we aren't told where  Ron or Harry stand.

"To their great surprise, both he and Ron passed with good marks;
Hermione, of course, had the best grades of the first years."

Heidi wrote:
> For me, Javert, in both the musical and the book, is the reason
> I  have never had any interest in being a prosecutor. I cannot
> see the world in pure rules and clear black and white, and I
> have no sympathy with those who always do.

>From listening to Deputy DAs and US Attorneys on the news, it's even
worse than seeing the world in pure rules. The prosecutor's job is to
get the defendant convicted even if innocent, to get the defendant the
heaviest sentence possible even if there are many extenuating
circumstances (such as innocence), and to prevent the convict from
getting a new trial even if new DNA evidence proves someone else did the
crime. The defense attorney's job is to get the defendant off even if he
is as guilty as sin. The adversarial method of law seems to me about as
valid as medieval trial by combat: might makes right.

Bugg wrote:
> I suspect three prefects from each house. A 5th, 6th, and 7th
> year. Head boy and girl may or may not be prefects first/still.

Last year it was proposed that there are six prefects per House: one boy
and one girl for each of 5th, 6th, and 7th years, with the Head Boy and
Head Girl still being prefects. Some people said that at *their* schools
(but those are Muggle schools) there was no arbitrary limit on the
number of prefects: the more prefects, the more to share the work.

Christian wrote:
> I once read a fic pairing Snape and Filch together - the
> premise was a shared fascination for the use of above-mentioned
> chains, and other implements.  It *was* a somewhat tongue-in-cheek
> fic, but very well written.

Long before I read that fic, Pippin had posted evidence  from canon of
Snape and Filch being an item and I thought it over and decided what
they have in common is a desire to hurt students -- Filch physically and
Snape verbally. I don't think they could get away with doing what they
want (in this scenario) to do to students, so I imagined that they
fondle their toys and talk about what they wish they were doing with
those toys, not using them on each other.

Katie Kearns wrote:
> I bet [Hermione] does [go to Bulgaria]. I mean, come
> on -- a change to see somewhere else in the  world?
> Other wizarding people? My gosh! The education
> experience is simply something she couldn't pass up!

That depends on whether her parents would allow her to go.

Lyda Clunas wrote:
> Rather OT, but anyhoo, regarding that interesting image... How long
> does it take you to figure out how to do something like that? Or do
>  you pick this sort of thing up on the net somewhere?

I swiped mine from someone else's sig, but Joywitch created her own.

Marianne Zarleycat wrote:
> is there any other source of news for the wizard
> world besides the Daily Planet?

Daily Prophet, Evening Prophet, Witch Weekly, Transfiguration today.
Also presumably there is a News Hour on Wizarding Wireless Network, but
if WWN is like BBC, its news is influenced by the government (altho' it
seems to me that BBC news is Not Very Much controlled by the gov't).

Clairey wrote:
> I just couldn't believe that someone could kill their own father so
easily.

A girl in my high school, a very nice girl, pretty, and a top student,
killed her father -- she just picked up the family gun and shot him one
evening when he was beating her younger sister. That was 1972 or 73, and
I remember her name but not her sister's.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 12:35:03 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:35:03 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP morally questionable? Discuss...
Message-ID: <LAW2-F92VvLVKi3s1ws0000db4d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17219

I think the one time when Harry breaks the rules out of pure self-indulgence 
is his second trip to Hogsmeade and he ends up feeling pretty bad about 
that.  In the first place, he's a bit rotten to poor Neville, who has also 
been left out of the trip and is clearly feeling a bit lonely.  Harry 
doesn't really see this because his one idea is to get to Hogsmeade.  In 
Hogsmeade, he takes advantage of his invisibility cloak to vent his 
frustrations on Malfoy - I'm not blaming him for this so much - Malfoy asked 
for it, and the cloak evened things up a bit - but Malfoy showdowns are 
usually face to face with Harry relying on his innate abilities and/or his 
friends.  Then he lies to a teacher and gets into a slanging match with him, 
admittedly the latter under provocation.
(Aside on Snape's disciplinary skills - he doesn't handle this very well - 
listening to a sneak, charging ahead without enough evidence, insulting a 
pupil's dead parent...tsk tsk!)  Though we're on his side, Harry isn't 
looking like a role model here.  We can see that Lupin (showing Snape how 
it's done ;) ) is right, and Harry is wrong.  Harry pays dearly for a few 
Zonko items and the fleeting satisfaction of slinging mud at Malfoy.

Scott wrote: <snip interesting comments on rule-breaking in HP>
>
>--Not at all. Sorry Eggplant but I really disagree here. I mean I do
>not refute (in fact I readily agree) that blind faith is extremely
>dangerous, but I do not see how you can justify that evil couldn't
>have been defeated without Harry breaking rules. As someone else
>pointed out in GoF Harry isn't breaking any rules by praticipating in
>the TWT or in fighting V in the graveyard scene. True in PS/SS he
>broke the rules, but it could have been resolved otherwise had that
>choice been made, the same goes for CoS, though to a lesser extent
>IMHO, but in PoA they were following Dumbledore's orders (sort of),
>not breaking rules. I guess I'm just confused.

They are not "following Dumbledore's orders" (wouldn't that be blind faith?) 
- Dumbledore doesn't give any orders, just hints about the resources 
(time-turner, Hippogriff) at their disposal.  They are breaking *laws*, not 
just school rules, but they *are* acting morally, and (I think this is 
important) risking the consequences, as is Dumbledore.  This is a clear case 
where evil would have triumphed without rule-breaking.  You're right, it is 
the tension between rules and moral actions that is fascinating. Noble 
actions can have bad consequences - it was noble, and morally right - to 
save Wormtail's life, even though the consequences are bad.

HP isn't "morally questionable" as the original article had it - it asks 
moral questions, which is why it will be read when books that equate 
morality with "doing what grown-ups tell you" are gathering dust.

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From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 14:21:10 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:21:10 -0000
Subject: Movie casting problems
In-Reply-To: <20010420071115.59D4536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9bpgkm+e9ki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17220

Echo:"In each of the 4 current books, it states at least once that 
Harry is short and skinny for his age. It also points out clearly that 
Ron is a bit taller, gangly with long limbs. I too am displeased with 
the movie version of Draco. In the one still I've seen of him, he just 
doesn't look evil enough. He looks like a baby doll in my opinion."

The look of the characters matters, but their personalities and acting 
abilities have to take precedence. I'd rather have a better actor than 
the closest possible resemblance.  It points up how difficult casting 
is when we all have such strong opinions of how the characters look.

Echo:" Also another thing that bothered me, is that I heard somewhere 
that in the movie, Harry's "lightning" scar is supposedly at his 
temple, and not his forehead. If true, that just irks me."

Me too. I hope it isn't so, otherwise it's just another example of 
Hollyweird stupidity.  What's the matter, his bangs hid it too much?

I only saw Draco in the trailer, and he looked OK to me. I'd guess it 
would be difficult to find someone who looked closer.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 14:27:59 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:27:59 -0000
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <20010420140316.8782.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bph1g+1fhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17221

Annd (BA in french literature) wrote:

> I believe Hermione would be the French name. In any
> case, Jean Racine, a French playwright from the 17th
> century, wrote a play about the Trojan war called
> "Andromaque" and there's a character named Hermione
> (Helen of Troy's daughter) in it. So at least the name
> exists in French literature.

So I believe my ship was named after the greek Hermione, too. Good to 
know who that original Hermione was, actually. I didn?t know! Is there 
anything in the character or in the story of the mythical Hermione 
that could give us a hint about how things will go on with "our" 
Hermione?

Any french people around here who could verify that the name hasn?t 
been changed in the french editions?

Lea
who passed her driving test with 100 % and who won a kid?s dancing 
competition when she was 11 (you seem to have to have *some* kind of 
qualification to be allowed to post here!)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 14:29:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:29:39 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <9bol95+92kr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bph4j+r2pq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17222

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> When I first came to this group, I tried very hard to *conform* to 
> the standards. If I had a question or an idea, I first went to the 
> FAQ to see if it was there. If not, I would try to search the 
> thousands of letters to find it. Do you veterans realize what a job 
> that is? At the moment, there are 17189 letters in this group's 
> files. (not iincluding those IN the archives) By the time I got 
done 
> doing all of that, if I had not completely forgotten what my 
question 
> was, or had not been bored to death, or bleary eyed, I would come 
> back to ask my question and find that I was now behind about 30 
> posts. It was sort of like chasing a train to catch a ride! I gave 
up 
> and just started asking questions and stating my ideas.
> 
> I figure that if there are people who  do not want to answer it 
> because they have tired of the subject, then they don't have to 
> answer it. That is also an option.
> 
> If they know where to send me to read letters on exactly my 
question, 
> I hope that they will do so, but do it kindly, not rudely.
> 
> There have been times when I thought about answering a newbie's 
> question, but then I didn't because someone told them that it had 
> been hashed & rehashed back in letter #342 or such. Now, I regret 
not 
> speaking up. I may have missed a chance to make a new friend.
> 
> Doreen, who likes hashing & rehashing and finds it a curious thing 
> that the same people who dislike hashing & rehashing, are the same 
> people who have read Harry Potter dozens of times.

Doreen, this post made me feel much better.  I have never lurked - 
purely because when I discovered this group I was so excited that I 
has found it I wanted to jump right in there and start posting.  

When I started posting a few weeks ago, I also tried to answer my own 
questions by searching the message archives, and like you found it 
too daunting to constantly keep refering to it, everytime I wanted to 
make a comment, just in case I had mentioned it before. It made me 
feel a little paranoid, particularly as there was the odd occassion 
when someone jumped down my throat about it.  (Particularly when I 
was stupid enough to ask what a SHIPPER was - I had read the FAQs but 
this one had somehow eluded me).

I now find myself glad that there are other Newbies out there who are 
not afraid to post - even if the subject has been covered before.  
You are quite right - we would have nothing to talk about until next 
year if we didn't cover any old ground.  The fact that the next 
series of topics are based on PoA proves this - even in the last few 
weeks there have been discussions going on about the sequence of 
events in the Shrieking Shack, Lupin's patronus etc. etc. which is 
all coming up for discussion again in the next few months.
Of course, there is always the fact that no matter how many times 
something has been discussed, there is always the possibility that a 
new perspective/view will crop up to add value.  

Even more so, when you talk about hashing and rehashing.  I have read 
the books countless times - and also listen to the audio versions.  I 
just finished Stephen Fry's reading of GoF this morning.  I find that 
everytime I reread, I find something that I haven't noticed before, 
or find that my perspective has changed slightly or even 
significantly.  Isn't this the same for everybody?  Doesn't this mean 
that no matter how many times something is discussed that most people 
will find that they will, in some instances find that their 
stance/opinion has shifted?

Of course it gets annoying when you have made what you feel is a 
perfectly good comment and it is ignored - only to see someone who is 
perhaps more established on the list say something similar which 
generates a long thread.  But as Neil has said, this is par for the 
course - it happens to everyone.

IMO, the positives far outweigh the negatives when I take into 
account everything I get out of this group, and I am looking forward 
to the discussions which come up in the future.  

Catherine




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri Apr 20 14:31:50 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:31:50 -0000
Subject: HP morally questionable? Discuss...
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F92VvLVKi3s1ws0000db4d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bph8m+an76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17223

 "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

> This is a 
clear case 
> where evil would have triumphed without rule-breaking.  You're 
right, it is 
> the tension between rules and moral actions that is fascinating. 
Noble 
> actions can have bad consequences - it was noble, and morally right 
- to 
> save Wormtail's life, even though the consequences are bad.
> 
> HP isn't "morally questionable" as the original article had it - it 
asks 
> moral questions, which is why it will be read when books that equate 
> morality with "doing what grown-ups tell you" are gathering dust.

I haven?t posted on this thread before, and just as I decided to, 
Morag came up with this and it?s so good I?ve got nothing to add to 
it. 

Lea





From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 14:58:01 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:58:01 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
Message-ID: <LAW2-F53aCdhxJKocJq00010674@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17224

lea wrote:
<snip comments that make my ears go as pink as Ron's>


Or did you feed the text into a computer
>and use the "search" option ;-)?

Quicker to read :)!  I *thought* I was a fan, but this list has really sent 
me back to the text and given plenty of food for thought, so thanks to 
*everyone* for that.
>
>Anyone claiming the HP books are mainly about friendship OR good vs.
>evil OR growing up OR any of this moral stuff we dont want to hear
>about any more...<snip>

Agree that the books are not *about* this stuff, it just goes with the 
territory.  I think you have to count death as a major theme, so (thank you, 
Doreen!) I'm also looking at clocks and watches.
>
>Lea, whos wearing a pair of rather thick dark blue woollen socks at
>the moment (what does she want to tell us by that?)
>
Morag (old, grey and wrinkly - and that's just my socks)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 15:34:22 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:34:22 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
In-Reply-To: <9bp8gj+iifv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpktv+4n1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17225

Yay you for not lurking and joining the fun!

I do not remember this idea being posted before. People have wondered 
why Dumbledore wanted socks for Christmas. The house elves would be a 
great ally when Voldemort starts his trouble. I think that is an 
interesting idea.

This is a Harry Potter discussion group. There are bound to be a 
quidditch field FULL of "ridiculous ideas". We have people riding on 
brooms, turning into bugs, and trees that will beat you up if you get 
too close. I would not worry too much about an idea being too 
ridiculous for this group.

I just try to remember that most people, when they disagree with 
something that someone else posted, are simply stating their own 
ideas, based on how they think or feel about what they have read in 
the HP books. They are not attacking me or my ideas or my questions. 
They are simply, and hopefully, politely, stating their own opinion. 

Doreen, who tosses a brand new pair of toe-socks to pjmonkey 
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> hi this is my first posting so Woo Hoo!
> 
> yup socks are in the books a lot, but has anyone concidered that 
> Dumbledorn wanted scocks(PS) because they could be used to free the 
> house elves (an encredably powerful magical creacher) and so use 
them 
> to fight against volt if he should ever return?
> 
> some one probably has
> 
> then many people probably decided it was a totaly rediculose idea, 
> whch it is.
> 
> oh well at least i can say i have stopped lurking!




From little_frog at keromail.com  Fri Apr 20 15:38:34 2001
From: little_frog at keromail.com (H H)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:38:34 +0800
Subject: Lupin's Patronus/The Dementors *&* The Art of Lurking
Message-ID: <20010420153834.10754.qmail@keromail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17226

> Milz wrote:
> 
> 
> >Thanks. I have a long-shot theory that might tie together the Patronus
> >and the Animagus animal form. Both might be animal manifestations of
> >your innner-self or your "spirit guide". So for James and Harry it's a
> >stag. Sirius its a dog. McGonagall it's a cat.
> >
> >Any thoughts?
> 
> Nice.  I have two quibbles:
> 1.  What if (like most wizards) you're not an animagus?
> 2.  Lupin says the patronus is "unique to the wizard that conjures it",
>     so James and Harry can't have the same one.  And we don't know that
>     if Harry became an animagus (and hasn't JKR said he won't?) he
>     would be a stag.
> 
> I do like the idea of Rita Skeeter's patronus being a beetle, though! :)

I don't think that you have to be an animagus to have an "animal guide" (as Milz put it).  Many cultures believe that each person is identified with a particular animal.  And even among my friends, we each seem to have a favorite animal that we feel very close to.  (Mine's a frog.  Go figure.)  Anyway, back OT, I think that it is highly likely that *if* your patronus were to take on animal form, it would be an animal that you shared traits with.  I think Dumbledore would be a pheonix or possibly an owl.  Cedric would be something brave, loyal, and kindly - (a golden retriever or dolphin?).  But, I don't think that there is any reason to believe that a patronus would have to be an animal - I think there have been some excellent arguments for Lupin's patronus being clouds or mist.  And as far as Harry's - I don't think it was just any stag.  I think it was James as a stag.  And how more unique can you get?!?

"EXPECTO PATRONUM!" he [Harry] yelled....
<Patronus scares off the Dementors, and then...>
It stopped on the bank.  Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes.  Slowly, it bowed its antlered head.  And Harry realized...
"Prongs," he whispered.
But as his trembling fingertips stretched toward the creature, it vanished.
-PoA, ch 21

As to lurking...
I lurk mainly because there are some amazing things on here.  Lots of my friends have read the Harry Potter books, but they aren't nearly as crazy about them as I am.  So, I lurk on here, get new ideas and theories in my head, and I'm happy.  This is actually my first post, so that's that.  Also, it *is* kinda hard to jump in, because I never know if something has already been discussed.  I know, I know, it's all there at the site, but there's a *lot* of stuff there, and I am hoping to graduate some day.  I spend way too much time online as it is!!!  (hehehe...)

So, don't fear the lurkers.  We'll talk when the muse takes us!

-Heather Hope (who wishes to some day leave college - *with* a degree)
-- 
_______________________________________________
Get your free email from www.keromail.com 


Powered by Outblaze



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 15:44:23 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:44:23 -0000
Subject: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <9bplgn+n3v6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17227

This is all fresh in my mind, as I have just finished listening to 
GoF on cd.  It really upset me.  Hearing it read aloud brought home 
to me again what a traumatic experience Harry was put through.  
Although he seem to be coming out of it, he does appear to be in 
shock and traumatised by the all of the events which occur during and 
after the third task.

My question is this:  We know that Dumbledore has supposedly very 
good reasons for sending Harry back to the Dursleys - this list has 
covered ad infinitum all the possible protections Dumbledore has in 
place there.  But how cruel to send Harry back there again.  I feel 
very strongly that at this time he needs the kind of comforting 
available to him in a family such as the Weasleys.  Instead he is 
having to spend at least the first part of his summer with people who 
hate him, don't want him there and who have no hope or interest in 
finding out what Harry has suffered, and who will do nothing to try 
and comfort him - instead they will try and make his life a misery, 
at worst, or simply ignore him, at best.

Harry will be spending a great deal of time on his own, giving him 
ample opportunity to brood, dwell on past events, worry about the 
future, when he could be with friends he loves, and who love him,  
who will do their best to protect him and try to keep his mind 
occupied on other things.

I was wondering that if Dumbledore has invoked ancient magic to 
protect Harry whilst he is at the Dursleys' house, why couldn't he 
transfer this so somewhere such as the Burrow is equally well 
protected?  The thought of him spending any more time than strictly 
necessary with his horrible relatives makes me miserable.

Any thoughts?

Catherine




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 15:45:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:45:23 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Stills
Message-ID: <9bplij+pbtr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17228

Ivis wrote:

>And would someone please remind me of what classroom scene in PS/SS 
>would have Ron, Harry, AND Draco smiling? Where is a good pensieve
>when you need one!

I don't think there is one.  In fact there aren't too many classroom 
scenes in PS/SS at all--not with detailed conversations, as in PA.  
Instead, we're introduced to most of the classes with short 
descriptive paragraphs.  Maybe this is the first Potions class, and 
there is some dialogue between Ron and Harry on their way into class 
that isn't in that spot in the book.

It looks to me as if this isn't yet a three-way interaction, but that 
Ron is saying something to Harry that's making him smile and that 
Draco is about to make a smart-ass remark.

<snip funny rant by Amber about Dumbledore's beard>

Amber, I sympathize.  I just don't like the movie Flitwick.  There's 
nothing wrong with him, but I have a very clear picture of Flitwick in 
my head, and it's wildly different.  I see him as clean-shaven, with 
the kind of hair that is always described as a "shock"--very straight 
and kind of sticking out to one side.

Amy Z
who still can't wait to see the movie anyway either

------------------------------------
 "Yeah, Dumbledore's barking, all 
 right," said Ron proudly. 
    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Apr 20 15:51:25 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:51:25 -0500
Subject: Speaking up, Previously-Discussed Topics, FAQs and more
References: <9bol95+92kr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE05AFD.9EFE3489@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17229

Hi everyone --

First off, I think Doreen's message to the lurkers and newbies was
wonderful (thanks Doreen!).  The Moderators have formed a group of old
and relatively new members to serve as "List Elves," who will be doing
lots of great things to make newbies feel welcome and comfortable.  The
List Elves are working out some logistical details amongst themselves,
but expect an ADMIN announcement on this topic very soon!

> Somebody please jump right in and correct me if I am wrong, but is
> this NOT a discussion group? Does that not mean to talk with others,
> to express our opinions, to hear the other person's views, to agree,
> disagree, or not respond at all?

Absolutely!!  I've made that point several times.  As far as I'm
concerned, any topic (as long as not Off-Topic) is fair game (even if
discussed to death in the past).  I'm on the record a number of times as
confirming this, although I usually make myself most known when someone
has tried to stifle discussion about something because they're sick to
death of it.  My response has always been that everyone is free to skip
over messages that contain conversation they're bored with or have no
interest in.  But, it's definitely not fair for one member (or small
minority of members) to try & dictate what can & can't be discussed to
the other members.  This is a large, diverse group -- one of the reasons
I love it so much is that there are people who can challenge me to think
about things from a perspective I hadn't considered before.  But, it's
clear with such a large group that we won't all be interested in reading
*everything* on all the possible topics.

Now, we do have OT rules, because otherwise the message volume would
start spiralling out of control.  I think most everyone who participates
over on OT-Chatter is happy with that system.

We also have Netiquette rules that ask people to avoid one-liners
(especially the LOL type responses) and to try & combine short responses
to several topics into one message.  This is also intended to keep
message volume manageable.  It is not intended to be unfriendly.  :--)

We do encourage everyone to read the VFAQs.  This is intended to be
helpful so that list space isn't taken up with providing the answers to
simple, one-line answer questions over & over.  I have taken to
referring people to the VFAQ rather than answering their question
directly, because I see that as a means of highlighting the existence of
the VFAQ one more time (perhaps for someone who will think, "Oh, I
missed that in the Welcome Message; I'd like to go check that VFAQ thing
out").  My intent in handling it this way has not been to be rude --
although being in the latter stages of pregnancy has possibly made me
more curt in replies than I would normally be.  I will personally make
an effort to be more friendly when answering these types of questions
(although I won't be doing much of that for a few months anyway ... when
& if baby ever decides to arrive).

We do encourage (and will do so more actively through the List Elves)
everyone to speak up!  As Doreen notes, who knows when a new perspective
or angle may be raised that none of us has thought of before?  I (like
Catherine) hear or see something new everytime I re-listen to the CDs or
re-read the books.  Little details I hadn't noticed before will suddenly
leap out at me, and I love that I can bring them up here and discuss
possible new meanings.  [Of course, this all ties in with my strong
belief that this discussion group does influence our perceptions and
interpretations of the "canon" -- it may be a different medium than
fanfic, but it undeniably does result in most people re-thinking their
positions or interpretations from time to time].

FAQs -- We are preparing essays that address the major characters, large
themes (such as Spells & Charms, Wizarding World Economy, Potential
Romance Pairings, Fanfic, Hogwarts, etc.).  These essays are intended to
address the interpretations & discussions that we've already had.  Our
hope was (and is still) that these essays will help people in deciding
whether their burning questions have been discussed before or whether
they've got a potential new angle.  They are not intended to squelch
discussion on topics that have been discussed before.  Rather, they are
intended to stimulate new theories, new angles on old theories, etc.  We
hope they'll give everyone something new to talk about!

These have been "in production" since September of last year, and so
lots of our older members are probably yawning right about now.  When we
initially undertook the task, there were 7000 Yahoo Club Messages.  Now,
there are those 7000 messages plus over 17000 messages in this group.
Slightly more than half the FAQs have been written at this point, and it
is my fervent hope that the techie types in the FAQ group will get the
completed FAQs uploaded to a website sometime in the next few weeks.  We
will just leave inactive links for those FAQs that aren't written or
completed yet.

I think these will be a great resource for all our members, but again,
they are not intended to squelch discussions!  :--)

> Is there a limit as to how many times a specific question *may* be
> asked or answered? It is not as though we are limited by space, is
> it? We are not compiling material for a research paper or something
> similar, are we?

No, there are no space limitations.  I think some of the older members
(myself included) do become irritated when a question that is clearly
answered in the VFAQ (and requires no real discussion) is asked.
Example: what is a shipper?  The answer is in the VFAQ and it doesn't
require any real elaboration -- it's just a definition of sorts.  If the
member wants to come back with that knowledge in mind and ask something
that requires more than a one sentence answer, then that's wonderful and
definitely encouraged.  See above though -- I will personally try & be
sure that referring someone to the VFAQ is done in a more friendly
manner!

As I said above, substantive topics that have been discussed in the past
are still always open for further discussion.  I encourage anyone who
really doesn't want to ponder the intricacies of the Marauders' Map any
further to just skip those messages.  There's no need to try &
discourage others (especially newbies who weren't around for the first 3
rounds) to cease & desist.  <g>

Of course, skipping messages is infinitely easier when everyone labels
their subject headings appropriately!!

> When I first came to this group, I tried very hard to *conform* to
> the standards. If I had a question or an idea, I first went to the
> FAQ to see if it was there. If not, I would try to search the
> thousands of letters to find it. Do you veterans realize what a job
> that is? At the moment, there are 17189 letters in this group's
> files. (not iincluding those IN the archives)

Um .... YES ... yes, I most assuredly do know what a job that is!!
Writing the FAQs has required those of us on the FAQs committee to use
that search feature to find the messages relating to our FAQ topic.  Ask
Simon (who's doing the Harry FAQ) about that search engine sometime (he
says he went through 9000+ messages to find the ones that were
relevant).

Again, this is another reason to have the FAQs in our mind.  These
essays will give everyone a resource to go check out what's been said
about Neville in the past.  You won't have to mess with that lousy
Yahoogroups search feature; we'll have done that work for you!  We're
including message #s too, so people who really want to delve deeply into
what exactly has been said on a particular topic can do so.

> Doreen, who likes hashing & rehashing and finds it a curious thing
> that the same people who dislike hashing & rehashing, are the same
> people who have read Harry Potter dozens of times.

I love hashing & rehashing -- ask anyone involved in the shipping
debates!  <g>  I don't necessarily enjoy re-hashing *all* HP-related
topics, but I just skip those that are not of interest to me.  There are
definitely people who don't like to hash & rehash, but like Doreen, I do
believe they should just delete or ignore messages not of interest to
them.  I also agree whole-heartedly with Doreen that we're not going to
have much to discuss for the next year if we don't cover some old ground
from time to time.

I hope this long ramble has been useful .... to anyone who's still tuned
in.  :--)  I purposefully left off the ADMIN in the subject line ...
because I didn't want it to be off-putting to anyone who's routinely
skipping my ADMIN rants.

I also apologize if I've been cranky or curt in any of my messages the
last month or so.  I'm now 5 days overdue ... so there is a reason (and
hopefully an ending) for my cranky, grumpy attitude at times.  In any
case, I certainly hope that I haven't offended anyone on a personal
level.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 15:52:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:52:59 -0000
Subject: Patroni, memories, Dementors - Who killed J&L
Message-ID: <9bpm0s+5f4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17230

Milz wrote:

>BTW, does anyone remember what Lupin's patronus was? 

And what about Dumbledore's?  (The book doesn't say.  I just 
wondered.)

Monika wrote:

>I'm quite sure about what Sirius saw when the Dementors surrounded 
him near
>the lake. He collapsed although he had been around Dementors for 
twelve years.

Ooh--what did he see, IYO?  I imagine finding your best friend's 
corpse ranks way up there--on the other hand, who knows what further 
horrors he saw while in Azkaban.

I wrote:

> I wonder what the others hear and see when the Dementors are near? 
> Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Fred, George?  And Lupin, who
> subjects himself to it repeatedly when training Harry?
 
Magda wrote:

>I don't think the Dementors affect people like that; they're icky and
>scary in themselves, but Harry's reaction is special.  
>
>For the others' reactions and their fears, you have to look at
>Boggarts.

Harry's reaction seems to be special in degree, but not otherwise 
unusual.  Hagrid says when he was in Azkaban he kept reliving the 
experiences of his father's death, his expulsion from school, and 
having to give up Norbert.  Whatever the others' worst memories are 
would seem to be what flooded their heads when the Dementor came into 
the compartment.

I think boggarts, on the other hand, can turn into things you've never 
encountered; they aren't about memory, but fear.  Parvati hasn't 
necessarily ever seen a mummy--she's just scared of the thought of 
them.  What do you think?

Samaporn wrote:

> Another thought about Lupin: the use of 'Lupin' as a last name is 
> quite fitting, but now I'm wondering ... is this a name he came up 
> for himself after he was bitten by a werewolf, or was his family 
> name really 'Lupin', and the fact that he became a werewolf was 
> just a big coincidence

And what about his first name?  Remus, along with Romulus, was 
abandoned in the wilderness and raised by wolves.  Naming your child 
Remus Lupin is just begging for a werewolf to come get him.

With the name-that-tips-off-an-important-characteristic, JKR is in the 
grand tradition of Roald Dahl, Charles Dickens, and Joan Aiken (Auntie 
Tribulation being one of my favorite villain names).  There's a 
tension between realism (and I do think JKR is essentially a realist 
author) and humor.

Naama wrote:

>when the boggart turns to a Dementor for 
>Harry's benefit, it is a Dementor and should affect Lupin as such. If 
>you recall from the overcome-your-worst-fear lesson, everybody could 
>see and be affected by what the boggart turned into (the banshee, for 
>instance, gave Harry the creeps, IIRC).

That's the way I figured it.  Also, the lights in the classroom go 
out, as they would with a real Dementor, and the Dementor can be 
turned aside by a Patronus.  The Boggart-Dementor's power isn't just 
in Harry's head; when it assumes the shape of a Dementor, it is for 
all intents and purposes a Dementor, though it can also be fought as 
one fights a Boggart.  In GF Harry uses first the Patronus, then 
"Riddikulus" on the Boggart in the maze.

Ebony wrote:

>This week, I've been browsing at Steve's Lexicon (excellent 
website!)... and IIRC, there's a theory over there that Voldemort 
>did NOT kill the Potters... someone else did.  I'm not sure if that 
was 
>Steve's idea or someone else's.  Intriguing, though, if not 
plausible.

IIRC, that theory was proposed as one way to explain why James came 
out of the wand first.  If Lily died first, it suggests that Harry was 
attacked after his mother was killed but before his father was, 
because the last thing V did with his wand was attack Harry, then he 
lost his powers.  So, someone else has to have killed James with V's 
wand after Lily was killed and Harry attacked; hence the "Peter was 
along and mopped up after his destroyed master" and related theories.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "I might remind you that =your= pincushion,
 Thomas, still curls up in fright if anyone
 approaches it with a pin!"
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 20 15:54:33 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:54:33 -0400
Subject: Oops...
Message-ID: <3AE05BB8.7D0377AA@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17231

Hello everyone,

Well, I've had a lot of comments about people getting erros while trying
to go to my site...so I checked it out....I forgot a / at the end of the
URL....grrr...

so here it is again...

http://crowswolf.tripod.com/mugglemagic/

Waiting in anticipation,
Hugs
Jamieson

--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 16:02:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:02:26 -0000
Subject: Harry
Message-ID: <9bpmii+l7rk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17232

Great summary, Joywitch!

I would add that one of Harry's crucial strengths at the climax of 
PS/SS is his purity of intention.  He finds the stone only because he 
wants nothing other than to get to it before Quirrell does.  No 
glimmer of "plus I could live forever!," or he wouldn't have found 
it.  Character is an integral part of magic, as we see in other 
instances, e.g. resistance to the Imperius.
  
Question 7)  I don't think it's too much that Harry has an innate 
talent for Quidditch.  Most things in the magical world, he has to 
work at.  He's obviously talented--summoning a powerful Patronus at 
age 13, e.g.--but most of these things don't come easily.  It seems 
realistic (and makes me happy) that he has one thing "he [can] do 
without being taught."  He realizes he has this ability, and the 
happiness that comes with it, at a time that he's still feeling new 
and insecure in the wizarding world.  Flying is like a great 
gift--something wonderful that he can have without working or 
suffering for it.

Amber wrote:

>I wouldn't see Harry's dying as a defeat at all. Dying to save the
>world from an unspeakable evil...well, that's something.

I agree, and I think Harry would too--he decided back at age 11 that 
he'd rather die than let Voldemort take over.  He'd think it very 
unfair that he had to die, though, and so would I!!  (Not to mention 
that I'd be suicidal.)

Also, re: the anti-romantic rant (lol!), I am an incurable romantic, 
hope to spend the rest of my life deeply in love, and do think love is 
"the ultimate emotion," but I don't particularly want Harry to ride 
off into the sunset with anyone either.  I think if Harry does fall in 
love it will be more nuanced than that.  JKR has spared us the details 
of his crush--I mean, he must do more than just imagine Cho gazing at 
him admiringly now and then, right?  Doesn't he ever fantasize about 
talking to her, or making out with her?  I bet he does, but there are 
some things I'd rather not see in HP (that's what fanfic is for <g>), 
and JKR seems to agree so far.  So if Harry does fall in love, I don't 
think we'll be subjected to too many scenes of his walking on air sans 
broomstick. 

Morag wrote:

>A father-figure who was able to be around more of the time might be a 
>bit much to cope with all of a sudden.  I know he wants to go and 
live with 
>Sirius, but he is not devastated when he can't.

I think he is, although it may be more the chance to escape from the 
Dursleys that he regrets losing.

Of all the things he has to be upset about at the end of PA, this is 
explicitly stated to be the worst, worse even than his fear of 
Voldemort's return.

************************

Harry had never approached the end of a school year in worse spirits . 
. . .
  It wasn't only Professor Lupin's departure that was weighing on his 
mind.  He couldn't help thinking a lot about Professor Trelawney's 
prediction.  He kept wondering where Pettigrew was now, whether he had 
sought sanctuary with Voldemort yet.  But the thing that was lowering 
Harry's spirits most of all was the prospect of returning to the 
Dursleys.  For maybe half an hour, a glorious half hour, he had 
believed he would be living with Sirius from now on . . . his parents' 
best friend . . . it would have been the next best thing to having his 
own father back . . . . Harry couldn't halp feeling miserable when he 
thought of the home he might have had, and the fact that it was now 
impossible. (PA 22)

************************

Sirius is still a vague figure at that point--one who is very 
appealing to Harry, and you laid out all the reasons why, but not, 
it's true, a real person to him yet.  But even though Harry knows 
Sirius better for what he stands for than who he really is, he's still 
devastated by this lost opportunity.

Naama wrote:

>BTW, to all you lit crits out there - how do you do 
>protagonist's death in Third Person Limited?

You're with him right 'til the moment he dies.  Then you have to end 
the book or switch POV!

Penny wrote:

>when Harry suggests that the Dursleys leave him by himself while they 
take Dudley
>to the zoo for his birthday, Petunia responds, "What & come back to 
find
>the house in ruins?"  We (and Harry) assume she means that *he* would
>destroy the house if left alone in it (we later wonder if she was
>referring to accidental magic)

And Harry says "I won't blow up the house."  Which is exactly how 
Petunia describes what happened to James and Lily--"then she got 
herself blown up."  Harry just means "Geez, I'm almost 11, I think I 
can be entrusted to leave the house undamaged," but Petunia probably 
hears those words as very ominous.

Ebony wrote:

>He didn't choose them.  At all.  I re-read PS/SS a couple of weeks 
ago... 
>they were all just sort of thrown together.  Friends by circumstance.

and Penny concurred:

>Ebony said it first, but I thought it immediately when I read your
>questions.  Harry didn't *choose* them.  Friendships like that just
>happen.

What is a "friend by circumstance"?  All of my friends are people with 
whom I was "thrown together," but they didn't "just happen."  We still 
chose each other, rather than all the other people we have been thrown 
together with in our lives; we chose to pursue the acquaintance, to 
deepen the relationship, etc.  Do you really think Harry and Ron are 
only friends because they shared their first ride to Hogwarts, or that 
Harry and Hermione are only friends because he helped rescue her from 
a troll?

The word "chose" stood out to me also, since fate is always a part of 
how friendships happen, but to say they "just happen" seems to 
sidestep Joy's question:  what do Ron and Hermione mean to Harry, that 
he is friends with them rather than someone else?

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
   "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing
 Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls."
   "No," Hermione agreed.
                   -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 16:09:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:09:49 -0000
Subject: How the Fidelius Charm works: a theory
In-Reply-To: <3ADDC317.2FBD0665@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bpn0d+eepf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17233

Amanda wrote:

>Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue him
>with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that Harry
>stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. Of
>course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find it, 
but
>still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley house is
>hidden under the Fidelius charm?

I know we've talked about this a lot before, but I had a tiny bit of a 
new (I think) thought about it.

As others have said, it seems that the FC couldn't conceal you from 
=everyone= or life would be very difficult.  The whole idea, it seems, 
is to allow you to hide only from the people you need to hide from. 

So, the FC makes you unfindable by certain people.  Who?  Surely, in 
the case of James and Lily, the DEs as well as Voldemort, for a start. 
 Perhaps everyone who has the Dark Mark, or even better, everyone 
whose loyalty is given to Voldemort whether they've been given the 
Dark Mark or not.

So what happens if someone who knows the whereabouts of someone 
protected by an FC becomes a DE afterwards?  Do they lose their 
ability to find the person?  I'd say yes.  It didn't happen with Peter 
because he was the Secret-Keeper.  But if Joe Blow down the street 
popped in to the Potters' on Wednesday and became a Voldemort follower 
on Thursday, the knowledge of their whereabouts would mysteriously 
vanish from his mind.  The charm automatically updates, as it were, to 
incorporate those who must not know.

Whaddayathink?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------





From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 16:10:25 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:10:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
References: <9bplgn+n3v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE05F70.D2A6F2A5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17234

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> I was wondering that if Dumbledore has invoked ancient magic to
> protect Harry whilst he is at the Dursleys' house, why coudn't he
> transfer this so somewhere such as the Burrow is equally well
> protected?  The thought of him spending any more time than strictly
> necessary with his horrible relatives makes me miserable.

It's in my mind that the "ancient magic" has to do with the Dursleys
being blood relations. I'm trying to figure out why I think that (my
books are not available)--does it say that in so many words, or is this
another of JKR's primrose paths?

If it must be blood kin, then he couldn't have stayed with Sirius,
either, provoking a comment some time back about the scene that would
have ensued, if Sirius *had* been cleared, and then Harry finding out he
has to go back to the Dursleys anyway. 'Twas speculated that this is one
plot reason for not clearing Sirius' name, too.

Bummer for Harry, all round. And bumme for me, too--now I'm going to
spend days trying to remember why I think the ancient magic has to do
with a blood relationship. [because of Lily being his mom, and that
"ancient magic" reference...?]

--Amanda, gettin' old


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Apr 20 16:16:01 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:16:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus, Patroni speculations
In-Reply-To: <20010420153834.10754.qmail@keromail.com>
Message-ID: <9bpnc1+n4co@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17235

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "H H" <little_frog at k...> wrote:
> > Milz wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > >Thanks. I have a long-shot theory that might tie together the 
Patronus
> > >and the Animagus animal form. Both might be animal manifestations 
of
> > >your innner-self or your "spirit guide". So for James and Harry 
it's a
> > >stag. Sirius its a dog. McGonagall it's a cat.
> > >
> > >Any thoughts?
> > 
> > Nice.  I have two quibbles:
> > 1.  What if (like most wizards) you're not an animagus?
> > 2.  Lupin says the patronus is "unique to the wizard that conjures 
it",
> >     so James and Harry can't have the same one.  And we don't know 
that
> >     if Harry became an animagus (and hasn't JKR said he won't?) he
> >     would be a stag.
> > 
> > I do like the idea of Rita Skeeter's patronus being a beetle, 
though! :)
> 
> I don't think that you have to be an animagus to have an "animal 
guide" (as Milz put it).  Many cultures believe that each person is 
identified with a particular animal.  And even among my friends, we 
each seem to have a favorite animal that we feel very close to.  
(Mine's a frog.  Go figure.)  Anyway, back OT, I think that it is 
highly likely that *if* your patronus were to take on animal form, it 
would be an animal that you shared traits with.  I think Dumbledore 
would be a pheonix or possibly an owl.  Cedric would be something 
brave, loyal, and kindly - (a golden retriever or dolphin?).  But, I 
don't think that there is any reason to believe that a patronus would 
have to be an animal - I think there have been some excellent 
arguments for Lupin's patronus being clouds or mist.  And as far as 
Harry's - I don't think it was just any stag.  I think it was James as 
a stag.  And how more unique can you get?!?

----

You stated it better than I could have. Harry's Patronus was Prongs. 
Maybe James' was just a stag. I think if I had a Patronus or if I was 
an animaga(?--my Latin's rusty), it would be a cat, particularly a 
gray cat. I seem to be a cat magnet and I get along better with dark 
colored cats than with light colored ones.

I can see Dumbledore as having a phoenix or some type of majestic bird 
as a patronus.

Which leads me to my next speculation (most likely it will be wrong). 
What if the 'Order of the Phoenix' are wizards or witches who are 
either phoenix animagi or have phoenix patroni? But then, Harry won't 
be able to join....

:-)Milz




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 16:16:32 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:16:32 -0000
Subject: How the Fidelius Charm works: a theory
In-Reply-To: <9bpn0d+eepf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpnd0+pu0o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17236

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> 
> >Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue 
him
> >with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that Harry
> >stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. Of
> >course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find 
it, 
> but
> >still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley house 
is
> >hidden under the Fidelius charm?
> 
> I know we've talked about this a lot before, but I had a tiny bit 
of a 
> new (I think) thought about it.
> 
> As others have said, it seems that the FC couldn't conceal you from 
> =everyone= or life would be very difficult.  The whole idea, it 
seems, 
> is to allow you to hide only from the people you need to hide from. 
> 
> So, the FC makes you unfindable by certain people.  Who?  Surely, 
in 
> the case of James and Lily, the DEs as well as Voldemort, for a 
start. 
>  Perhaps everyone who has the Dark Mark, or even better, everyone 
> whose loyalty is given to Voldemort whether they've been given the 
> Dark Mark or not.
> 
> So what happens if someone who knows the whereabouts of someone 
> protected by an FC becomes a DE afterwards?  Do they lose their 
> ability to find the person?  I'd say yes.  It didn't happen with 
Peter 
> because he was the Secret-Keeper.  But if Joe Blow down the street 
> popped in to the Potters' on Wednesday and became a Voldemort 
follower 
> on Thursday, the knowledge of their whereabouts would mysteriously 
> vanish from his mind.  The charm automatically updates, as it were, 
to 
> incorporate those who must not know.
> 
> Whaddayathink?
> 
> Amy Z

Do you think this could cover the imperious curse?  What would happen 
if, for instance, one of the Weasleys were put under the imperious 
curse and forced to take Voldy or a death eater to Privet Drive?  
Would they be able to?  Or what if they were put under the imperious 
curse and told to kill Harry?  There loyalty wouldn't be to Voldemort 
as it is an entirely physical, not mental hold the curse has on 
people.
This gets more and more complicated!
Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 16:22:46 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:22:46 -0000
Subject: Lupin's Patronus, Patroni speculations
In-Reply-To: <9bpnc1+n4co@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpnom+5b7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17237

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Which leads me to my next speculation (most likely it will be 
wrong). 
> What if the 'Order of the Phoenix' are wizards or witches who are 
> either phoenix animagi or have phoenix patroni? But then, Harry 
won't 
> be able to join....
> 
> :-)Milz

There is also the possibility that it could be to do with wand cores, 
as in Voldemort and Harry.  They are undoubtedly connected, perhaps 
in more ways than one.  Everyone is assuming that the Order of the 
Phoenix is a group of witches and wizards, and that they had 
something to do with trying to defeat Volemort the first time round.  
This is probably the case, but the phoenix (in particular Fawkes) has 
so far had more significance than that, and I don't think that JKR 
would use something such as Fawkes and the wand cores in such a way 
without it having further ramifications.  Therefore I do think there 
are more posibilities out there - could be something much more 
ambiguous and subtle.

Catherine




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Apr 20 16:25:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:25:52 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow
In-Reply-To: <9bp86m+vf4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpnug+69mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17238

lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > > but where does it say godric's hollow is a town--why can't it 
be a 
> > > single residence. 
> 
> It?s a village. Check the HPPS scene in the hut on the rock with 
> Hagrid telling Harry about his parents? death. There is a phrase 
like 
> "and then Voldemort turned up in the village where James and Lily 
> lived..". 

***************
In "The Keeper of the Keys", SS, Hagrid says, "All anyone knows is, 
he turned up in the village where you was all living, on Halloween 
ten years ago. You was just a year old. He came to yer house an' -- 
an'--"

In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're saying, 
she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's 
Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James 
Potter are -- are-- that they're --dead."

In "The Servants of Voldemort", POA, Sirius Black says, "I was 
scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I 
saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...I realized what Peter 
must have done... what I'd done."

It doesn't really say the village of Godrick's Hollow. I think it is 
still up for grabs.

Doreen, who would have answered sooner, but I find myself caught up 
in reading more than I need to ... just because I want to. :)




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Apr 20 16:26:47 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:26:47 -0000
Subject: Patroni, memories, Dementors - Who killed J&L
In-Reply-To: <9bpm0s+5f4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpo07+u317@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17239


> Ebony wrote:
> 
> >This week, I've been browsing at Steve's Lexicon (excellent 
> website!)

Thanks!

... and IIRC, there's a theory over there that Voldemort 
> >did NOT kill the Potters... someone else did.  I'm not sure if 
that 
> was 
> >Steve's idea or someone else's.  Intriguing, though, if not 
> plausible.

It's my idea. And it's entirely plausible, and I would argue, 
necessary to explain the events of that night.


> 
> IIRC, that theory was proposed as one way to explain why James came 
> out of the wand first.  

No, if you read it over you'll see that the whole "who came out 
first" question is really not that big of a deal compared to the 
larger, more intriguing mystery of who killed them and where was 
Harry for an entire day after they were killed and before he was 
taken to Privet Drive.

The mystery hinges on one key point: the spell that Voldemort casts 
on Harry never comes out of the wand during the Priori Incantatum 
event. Some have suggested that this is because it failed or didn't 
work as expected, but that doesn't really make sense. It didn't fail--
it was cast and it had a very strong effect. Others have suggested 
that Harry just didn't notice that particular spell coming out, but 
it's a huge, powerful spell and wouldn't have been missed very 
easily. It is possible that he just didn't see it, but I don't 
consider it likely.

Using the reverse spells coming out of the wand, then, we can 
literally recreate the events of October 31, 1981, at midnight. And 
when we do that, we see that Harry's parents were killed (in which 
ever order, doesn't matter) AFTER Voldemort was already hit by his 
own spell and reduced to a noncorporeal state. He therefore could NOT 
have cast the spells that killed Lily and James, although his wand 
was obviously used for those murders.

Personally, I think this is just an oversight on JKR's part, that 
she'll eventually waffle out of it and just say it was a mistake, but 
in the meantime, this is the way the story is as written. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a little "rate the website" survey on it - please try it!
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 16:27:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:27:14 -0000
Subject: How the Fidelius Charm works: a theory
In-Reply-To: <9bpnd0+pu0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpo13+htoa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17240

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> > 
> > >Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue 
> him
> > >with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that 
Harry
> > >stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. 
Of
> > >course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find 
> it, 
> > but
> > >still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley 
house 
> is
> > >hidden under the Fidelius charm?
> > 
> > I know we've talked about this a lot before, but I had a tiny bit 
> of a 
> > new (I think) thought about it.
> > 
> > As others have said, it seems that the FC couldn't conceal you 
from 
> > =everyone= or life would be very difficult.  The whole idea, it 
> seems, 
> > is to allow you to hide only from the people you need to hide 
from. 
> > 
> > So, the FC makes you unfindable by certain people.  Who?  Surely, 
> in 
> > the case of James and Lily, the DEs as well as Voldemort, for a 
> start. 
> >  Perhaps everyone who has the Dark Mark, or even better, everyone 
> > whose loyalty is given to Voldemort whether they've been given the 
> > Dark Mark or not.
> > 
> > So what happens if someone who knows the whereabouts of someone 
> > protected by an FC becomes a DE afterwards?  Do they lose their 
> > ability to find the person?  I'd say yes.  It didn't happen with 
> Peter 
> > because he was the Secret-Keeper.  But if Joe Blow down the street 
> > popped in to the Potters' on Wednesday and became a Voldemort 
> follower 
> > on Thursday, the knowledge of their whereabouts would mysteriously 
> > vanish from his mind.  The charm automatically updates, as it 
were, 
> to 
> > incorporate those who must not know.
> > 
> > Whaddayathink?
> > 
> > Amy Z
> 
> Do you think this could cover the imperious curse?  What would 
happen 
> if, for instance, one of the Weasleys were put under the imperious 
> curse and forced to take Voldy or a death eater to Privet Drive?  
> Would they be able to?  Or what if they were put under the imperious 
> curse and told to kill Harry?  There loyalty wouldn't be to 
Voldemort 
> as it is an entirely physical, not mental hold the curse has on 
> people.
> This gets more and more complicated!

Ooh, good question.  I actually do think the Imperius Curse has a 
mental hold on you--that you could be forced to kill your best friend 
AND feel okay about it.  (NO, I'm not suggesting that as a plot 
possibility...though now that I've said it...no, no, Ron!)  Otherwise, 
one would think that people under the IC would be in a constant state 
of remorse and guilt.  I think they walk around in a happy haze, doing 
horrible things, and don't realize that these things are out of 
keeping with their fundamental character until the IC is lifted.

I think the Fidelius has to regard someone under the control of 
Voldemort as an enemy and therefore make it impossible for him/her to 
find the protected person.  

But now, the more I write about this, the more I think others can't 
know where someone under the FC is.  Otherwise any number of people 
could be tortured for the information.  It's very clear that only the 
Secret Keeper is in that danger--no one else =can= tell.  Drat.  This 
is going to take some sorting out.

Amy Z
feverishly collecting information for the "nature of magic" essay 
coming up in several weeks, and wondering if she can conveniently 
forget to include the Fidelius Charm




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 16:36:41 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:36:41 -0000
Subject: Who killed J&L
In-Reply-To: <9bpo07+u317@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpoip+qlp8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17241

Steve wrote:

> The mystery hinges on one key point: the spell that Voldemort casts 
> on Harry never comes out of the wand during the Priori Incantatum 
> event. Some have suggested that this is because it failed or didn't 
> work as expected, but that doesn't really make sense. It didn't 
fail--
> it was cast and it had a very strong effect. Others have suggested 
> that Harry just didn't notice that particular spell coming out, but 
> it's a huge, powerful spell and wouldn't have been missed very 
> easily. It is possible that he just didn't see it, but I don't 
> consider it likely.
> 

How about this theory?:

Some of the spells have good, repeatable audiovisual effects:  a 
conjured hand, the screams of those in pain, the bodies of those 
killed.

The failed AK didn't come out in any form that Harry could see or hear 
because it didn't have any visible or audible effects.  One might 
assume that toddler Harry at least started crying when he was cut by 
the curse, but it's very possible that he didn't--maybe he was knocked 
unconscious.  And V himself probably just disappeared.  Someone hit by 
AK, judging from Cedric, may have no time even to scream.

It would be as if Voldemort had done an "Alohamora" somewhere in that 
sequence.  It would come out in its proper place, but we wouldn't get 
a ghostly image of a door unlocking, so it wouldn't be replayed in any 
way that a spectator could see.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
 "And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could =never
 stop reading=!  You just had to wander around with your nose 
 in it, trying to do everything one-handed."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 16:39:39 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:39:39 -0500
Subject: Say it ain't so (was Harry a Squib?!?!)
References: <9bdgkt+1rm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0664B.BAB7D9EB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17242

I'm finally going back over all the emails I left in my box because I
wanted to respond.....that sort of thing really piles up quickly! [easy
answer being, of course, *don't talk so much,* but we don't go
there....]

Scott wrote:

> Could Harry be a squib? Yes I know he can do magic quite well, he's
> obviously not a squib now, but could he have been, or at least a not
> very powerful wizard, before Voldy transfered some of his powers into
> Harry. (That has to be a run on sentence!)

I have a visceral reaction to this, the same reaction that I had when
someone wondered if Ginny had any augmented powers/special dementor
effect because maybe *she'd* picked up some of Voldemort's powers
because they "shared a soul" for a bit in CoS. I don't like this theory
at all. :::toes curl::::

It's always hard to chase down immediate emotional responses, but I
think it's because this makes Voldemort the source of the magic. If
Harry's a squib, then Voldemort's what's magic about him. Ginny might
have been magic to begin with, but Voldemort augmented her. Voldemort as
a primary source bothers me. It just don't seem *right.*

> See it would fit JKR's sense of irony quite well if Harry would never
> have been able to become a worthy adversary of Voldemort(')s had it
> not been for V's trying to kill him. Make sense?

Alas, yes. It would be deliciously ironic and very classical to have
Voldemort pull an Oedipus by creating his own downfall, by transferring
powers to a powerless infant. But to me, this doesn't gell with the
"feel" of the books. They seem to touch and borrow classical themes, but
tell their own story, and I don't know that JKR would come to such a
straightforwardly classical conclusion. Hope not.

The focus of the books is not Voldemort; character-wise, he's not
tremendously well-developed yet. Voldemort is, so far, almost in the
"plot device" category rather than a real player, and to have a plot
device as the generating mechanism of the magic of the main character
just seems, well, weird. But we *are* only just over halfway through the
series, and canon evidence *does* indicate Voldemort will be much, much
more of a presence....<g>

I think there's evidence, too, that some of Harry's magic is his own.
Unless Voldemort was very good at Quidditch (was he?), Harry's ability
to fly comes from James. And the form of his Patronus is clearly related
to his dad (although the argument could be made that the form is a
reflection of his essence only, and the ability to cast the spell stems
from V's power-transfer). But the wand he picks is the brother to
Voldemort's. We don't know what the cores to Lily's and James' wands
were, do we? Harry *did* manage to win the battle of wills with
Voldemort during the Priori Incantatem episode, but that can be chalked
up to strength of mind, not magical ability. Argh. Why is JKR so *good*
at this ambiguous stuff?

> So what would this have to do with the gleam in Dumbledore's eye. I'm
> erm not really sure. (Hey it wasn't THAT long of a walk!) But it does
> make sense that somehow, whether like this or not, Voldemort's fate is
> inexplicably tied to Harry.

I still think that by using Harry's blood to reanimate, Voldemort has
made himself vulnerable, at least to Harry. I've postulated that it may
be that their deaths as well as their lives are tied, a la Dragonheart,
so that in order for Voldemort to die Harry must. Whatever the tie is, I
think a bond is inarguable. I just don't *want* all the magic to be
one-sided, darn it!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 16:43:47 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:43:47 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Concept of before & after
References: <9bfoku+sl04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE06743.163EF635@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17243

leahquah at hotmail.com wrote:

> There's something I've noticed about the books; they show you a lot of
> comparison between the younger and older stages of a character. Sort
> of a look-what-happened-to-so-and-so, and it's always different from
> what you might have thought.
> Take, for example, Tom Marvelo Riddle. As Dumbledore said, he was the
> handsome, clever, Head Boy. He became the feared Lord Voldemort. And
> the group that is sometimes called the Marauders:
> Wormtail: blew up a whole street, a Death Eater
> James Potter: dead, but his son is a famous wizard and nemesis of
> Voldemort
> Sirius Black: an escaped (although innocent) convict, and said
> murderer, on the run
> Remus Lupin: a werewolf whose whereabouts we currently don't know.
> What kind of reunion would that be?
> Take a few other characters. Barty Crouch, senior, was successful and
> on his way to becoming Minister of Magic. By the end of the fourth
> book, he was a bone (which is funny in a way) and all members of his
> family have been as good as destroyed. And remember how, in the
> chapter of GoF, the encounter with Voldemort, where the DeathEaters
> come? Voldemort muses over how they've changed.
>
> All the befores and afters; is this a hint towards how Harry will turn
> out?

I think it's a sweeping, ongoing illustration of the theme that
Dumbledore summed up, that "it's not our abilities but our choices that
define us" [paraphrase]. None of the characters you listed turned out as
their abilities might have strongly indicated; all have been shaped by
their choices. Any hint about Harry, or any of the younger "in progress"
characters, must be that we should watch the choices they make, rather
than the abilities they display. At least that's what I get.

Wonderful post; I'd never spotted the contrasts of so many characters!
Thanks.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 16:47:23 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:47:23 -0000
Subject: Quidduich card game
Message-ID: <9bpp6r+qfmv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17244

has anyone played this game?
i picked it up coz it looked like fun, and it is but i have several 
complantes,

Firstly the qriffindor beaters ARN'T fred and george, if u look 
closely at the hair u could say it is a bit gingery, but not enought 
to be a weasly

Second all the slitherins look too happy and nice (but i surpose this 
is to stop who ever doesn't get 2 b griffindor feeling too bad)

also there r girls on the slyterin team, i know in later books it is 
mentioned that there r no girls on the team, so i assumed there were 
none in ps.

but despite those littile annoying things the game is still fun (the 
real thing would probably be better though, probably)

(the probably thing is an understatment)

any way, just wanted to post something that might be originalish, i 
think this is (please don't burst my bubble by telling me this was 
posted weeks ago ;))

pjmonkey(who is very grateful 4 the socks, thanx Doreen)




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 16:53:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:53:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map problem
References: <LAW2-F103ziRAVvX6Rm00008de2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0697A.B58D45D4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17245

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Perhaps he could put two and two together?  He says "One glance at
> [the map] told me all I needed to know" - is this typical JKR
> evasiveness?  He'd have gone after H H & R anyway, as this would be a
> golden chance to get them all
> expelled for breaking bounds.

But in the Shack, Snape is speaking to Lupin, and says he sees *Lupin*
running down the tunnel. By the time Lupin was doing that, HHR were
already in the Shack and thus not visible on the map (because the Shack
is off the Hogwarts grounds). So I think Snape didn't even realize that
HHR were involved at all, necessarily, until he found the cloak at the
foot of the tree.

Snape went to Lupin's office to take him his potion. But I think he
followed him because he genuinely believed that Lupin was in league with
Sirius and a danger to Harry, and here's Lupin acting suspiciously--a
chance to show Dumbledore I was right! thinks Snape. Once he got there,
he was acting to protect the troika, too, but I think his primary
motivation was to catch Lupin in the act, maybe catch Sirius, validate
his viewpoint to Dumbledore, and finally see some gratitude in that
upstart's son's eyes for catching the man who caused his parent's
deaths.

Thoughts? This whole sequence needs even more parsing to make sure who
knew what at what time. It's so easy to forget that such and such didn't
know something until after this happened. This sequence must have taken
simply *ages* to write and rework until each thing happened just right.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Apr 20 17:01:09 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:01:09 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Lupin, GoF Dursleys
Message-ID: <9bpq0l+qr4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17246

Morag wrote:
I suppose so.  I think Harry does appreciate Lupin, but Sirius is 
just the 
kind of not-too-demanding, glamourous, cool, father-figure Harry 
wants just 
now.  A father-figure who was able to be around more of the time 
might be a 
bit much to cope with all of a sudden.  I know he wants to go and 
live with 
Sirius, but he is not devastated when he can't.  Sirius is also the 
anti-Vernon - he's a wizard, owns (or owned - what happened to it?) a 
flying 
motorbike, has long hair and is on the wrong side of the law.  
Perfect.  I 
think Lupin's a little too old-looking and acting (though he and 
Sirius must 
be of an age) and a little too tired and sad for the role.  Finally, 
Sirius 
was the closest to Harry's real father - "You'd have thought Black 
and 
Potter were brothers!...Inseparable!", as Harry has heard Flitwick 
say in 
the Three Broomsticks.  They are compared to the Weasley twins in 
closeness 
and capacity for trouble.  He has seen them in the same photo, Sirius 
was 
his father's best man and is Harry's own godfather.  Sirius tells 
Harry he 
would have died for James and Lily, thus linking himself with the one 
thing 
Harry has always known about his parents - they're dead.  It's as 
close as 
Harry can get to having his own father back.


All these why Sirius/not Lupin points have been very enlightening and 
I agree with all the excellent points you made here. However, I think 
there's one more thing that should be taken into account - I have the 
feeling that Lupin sort of pushes Harry away at the end of Prisoner 
of Azkaban, and Harry is not the sort to aggressively pursue a 
relationship (IMO) especially with an adult. And I get the impression 
that Harry does try to get close to Lupin running up to his office 
when he finds out that Lupin is leaving, he says, 

"You're the best Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher we've ever 
had!" said Harry. "Don't go."
Lupin shook his head and didn't speak. He carried on emptying his 
drawers. Then, while Harry was trying to think of a good argument to 
make him stay, Lupin said <snip>"

Then later on, when Lupin is leaving,

"Well - goodbye, Harry," he said, smiling. "It has been a real 
pleasure teaching you. I feel sure we'll meet again sometime. 
Headmaster, there is no need to see me to the gates, I can manage..."

Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as 
possible. (POA)

In addition, we must remember that Lupin never told Harry he was a 
friend of James until it came out by accident I think during the help 
with the dementor/boggart scene. It happens when Harry says he heard 
James and Lupin is overcome with emotion, but I get the feeling he 
may not have told him that he knew James otherwise - it seems to be a 
painful subject. We do see Harry reaching out to Lupin at the end of 
the book, but there's something (maybe the werewolf thing, but maybe 
something we will find out later) that is holding Lupin back from 
embracing Harry as a father figure. Sirius on the other hand, 
actively reaches out to Harry, first by inviting him to live with him 
in the Shrieking Shack and then by keeping in touch with him, whereas 
Lupin dismisses him with a "I'm sure we'll meet again, Harry" - and I 
think many of us can agree that it is not in Harry's nature to push 
for adult relationships.

Catherine wrote:
Harry will be spending a great deal of time on his own, giving him 
ample opportunity to brood, dwell on past events, worry about the 
future, when he could be with friends he loves, and who love him,  
who will do their best to protect him and try to keep his mind 
occupied on other things.

I agree that it does seem unusual that he won't be at the Weasleys 
who will nurture him. Unfortunately I don't have GoF with me at the 
moment, but I get the impression that Harry wouldn't want to be 
treated with fragility and people trying to keep his mind occupied on 
other things, and the wizarding world in general. In the beginning of 
GoF when his scar hurts for the first time, doesn't he consider 
telling Ron and Hermione about it, and then changes his mind because 
he predicts that Ron would panic and Hermione would tell him to go to 
Dumbledore? Harry doesn't like a lot of attention in this respect. 
And after his ordeal with Voldemort at the graveyard, I get the 
feeling that he sort of withdraws into himself, and doesn't want to 
speak to anyone about it. Does he even tell Ron and Hermione the 
details of what happened in the graveyard? Although the Dursleys 
aren't exactly healing people, I don't know if Harry even *wants* to 
deal with people "gawping" at him and Ron and Hermione panicking and 
worrying about him. It might be good for him to get away from all 
that for a while, although at first sight it certainly doesn't seem 
that way.




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 17:02:56 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <9bph1g+1fhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010420170256.19248.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17247


--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote> 
> Any french people around here who could verify that
> the name hasnt 
> been changed in the french editions?
> 
It hasn't been changed. I don't own French editions,
but I've seen them.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 17:04:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:04:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teachers - Godparents/Relatives - Religion
References: <9bie4f+ftla@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE06C29.A9942DEC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17248

CAVEAT: This post does ramble, from Sarah's very good observation to a
slightly related question of my own. It is true Professor Amanda Binns,
so delete it now if you're not in the mood.....

Sarah Waggott wrote:

> Something I don't think anyone has pointed out yet (sorry if you
> have!)

Don't think they have, well done! It took me months to say anything new.
And I still dont' do it very often...<g>

> is that students react differently to their teachers as they move up
> through school.

<snip>

> Getting back on track and tying in with the Harry's pov thing, is it
> possible that his relationship with the teachers will change in the
> next 3 years? I think this is probable, in which case our perceptions
> of them will also change. The exception to this is going to be Snape,
> if Harry views him in a different light, it will be because of events
> at the end of GoF etc. rather than a developing relationship with the
> Potions Master. I don't think anyone has been through this sort of
> thing with Snape, he keeps himself very much to himself, methinks.

Tremendously good point. We remember that they're just kids growing up
in most other threads, but I don't know that anyone's brought it to the
"teacher" one (except to note that Lupin and/or fake Moody are some sort
of familial figure to Harry, and help "bring him out" as he's maturing).

I think, if there's no deepening or changing of relationship with Snape,
that it will be as much Snape's fault as anyone's. Snape seems to me to
be a man on emotional autopilot. In that vein, he seems to form his
opinion of students quickly, and not necessarily on a valid basis, and
retain that opinion for the rest of the time he deals with them.

I think this "autopilot" mode is a form of self-defense, in that Snape's
been through some major-league trauma and he simply doesn't bring all of
himself to bear in day-to-day life anymore. He can get by just fine,
doing his job and living at Hogwarts, using the shallow emptinesses of
the rules and professional courtesies and etiquettes and that sort of
thing. None of that demands introspection, self-examination, intimacy,
or effort. It's a "coasting" mode.

The times we have seen Snape truly emotional have all been when the past
was invoked. His emotional involvement ended there. He's emotional about
Harry because he touches on the past.

So I wonder how the new information Snape's been handed--that Sirius is
in fact innocent, as is Lupin, that James was right about Sirius, that
Harry has met and eluded Voldemort again--is going to affect his whole
manner of being, let alone his teaching or how he interacts with Harry.
All of this touches on the past, all of it must affect his viewpoint and
actions, all of it must be assimilated--and all of it had been nicely
sublimated and must be exhumed. Hmmm.

--Amanda, verbose today


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katie at vquill.com  Fri Apr 20 17:03:26 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:03:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <20010419152317.27787.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9bmuti+90qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420100242.00bef520@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17249

At 08:23 AM 4/19/01 -0700, you wrote:

>And I don't think the actor looks the way I think Dumbledore should
>look. But again, my opinion could change once I see the movie. I'm just
>judging everything off of appearence and what I happen to know of the
>actor (which is virtually nothing).
>
><grin> I still can't wait to see the movie, though, I'm just being
>nitpicky!
>
>~Amber

I agree.  His beard should be whiter, fluffier and more neatly trimmed, I 
think. Or something. He should look rather presentable, instead of a bit dingy.

-Katie




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 17:11:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:11:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolves and Animagi
References: <3.0.2.32.20010417194254.0077b294@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3AE06DC5.A588328@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17250

Samaporn Teeravechyan wrote:

> I suddenly recalled that, in PoA, Sirius tackles Lupin's werewolf form
> and they were locked "jaw to jaw". As a result of that encounter,
> Sirius comes away with "gashes on his muzzle". Does a werewolf bite
> have no effect on a
> human then, if that human has transfigured into an animal form? The
> transfiguration process doesn't seem to be complete, as would be the
> case in Lupin's werewolf transformation, as animagi retain their human
> mental
> capacities.

Sorry, Samaporn, I meant to respond earlier. Lupin tells the troika,
"They [the marauders] couldn't keep me company as humans, so they kept
me company as animals....A werewolf is only a danger to people." (p.
354, PoA, US).

This can mean a werewolf will only attack people, not other animals, but
I don't think this is right because Hagrid says toward the end that he
might have been worried that Buckbeak had met Lupin on the grounds last
night, but Lupin said he hadn't eaten anything (Hagrid still thinks
Buckbeak slipped his rope at this point). This sounds to me like a
werewolf, like any other creature, will attack other animals to eat. So
I think a more likely interpretation of Lupin's comment is that the
"danger to people" is the magical vector that causes lycanthropy, and it
is only contagious to humans. An animal can't catch it, it's not a
disease they get. This must be right, because Sirius-the-dog *does* get
bitten and so far as we know he is *not* a werewolf thereafter.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 17:21:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:21:28 -0000
Subject: More opening gambits
Message-ID: <9bpr6o+htqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17251

That was so much fun, and I ran into so many others as I looked up my 
own wrong guesses, that I put together another list.

Can you identify who spoke each of these as his/her first line?  And 
what the heck, I'll be as Snapelike as Caius and require book and 
chapter too.  If you want to send your answers, send them to me at 
aiz24"at"hotmail.com (read @ for "at").  I'll post the answers to the 
list in a few days.  Have fun!

Amy Z


"How did you know it was me?"

"Oooooooh!"

"Nine and three quarters!"

"What is it?"

"Aha!"

"Welcome."

"=Nearly= Headless?"

"Well, what are you all waiting for?"

"Are you all right?"
		
"Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall."




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 17:21:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:21:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
References: <9bjsu0+s6nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0701F.984B9C96@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17252

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> 2. "I see no difference"
>
> But it does not cover that "I see no difference" remark to Hermione in
> GoF. I think we all agree that this was surprisingly cruel even by
> Snape?s usual standards. It is *not* for a teacher to comment
> negatively  on a student?s physical unattractiveness or disability if
> it has nothing to do with his/her academic achievement.

But I think Snape, in his own mind, does not consider himself first and
foremost a teacher. It's what he's doing, he does it well (I think), but
it's not how he identifies himself. It does not bind his behavior
outside the walls of his classroom. He allows himself liberties that
someone whose life and being is teaching would never consider, including
a cruel response to someone who is your student.

I think whatever his administrative position is at Hogwarts--and I think
he must hold one, over and in addition to his teaching post--is separate
in his mind from his teaching duties. Because he *does* seem to carry
the administrative role "with him" fairly regularly.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was a HORRID thing to say to her and I
hated him for it. Explaining and excusing are two very different things.

Did that make sense?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 17:24:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:24:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dementors
References: <20010418125054.33488.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE070C6.4D481E34@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17253

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class show
> up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would he see a
> Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?

Wow. I had never, ever considered this aspect of Snape leaving the room.
Ooo. I have nothing to add but my admiration for Magda, that she spotted
this! I already have a couple reasons to reread things, add this one to
the list. I'm going to have to start reading with a clipboard next to
me, for notes.

I wonder if he'd have seen someone he cared about, since what he seems
to fear (or at least avoid the most) is closeness? Hmmmmmm.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Apr 20 17:32:48 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:32:48 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patroni, memories, Dementors - German books
In-Reply-To: <9bpm0s+5f4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEHOCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17254

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patroni, memories, Dementors - Who killed J&L

I wrote:

> >I'm quite sure about what Sirius saw when the Dementors surrounded 
> him near
> >the lake. He collapsed although he had been around Dementors for 
> twelve years.

Amy wrote:

> Ooh--what did he see, IYO?  I imagine finding your best friend's 
> corpse ranks way up there--on the other hand, who knows what further 
> horrors he saw while in Azkaban.

To tell the truth, my bet is on a bit of it all. The bodies of James and
Lily, and his cell in Azkaban. More Dementors. Maybe the vision of
the Dementors burying Barty Jr. which he had witnessed and which
had shaken him badly at the time, just look at his reaction when he
tells Harry, Ron and Hermione about it.

> Magda wrote:
> 
> >I don't think the Dementors affect people like that; they're icky and
> >scary in themselves, but Harry's reaction is special.  

Nope, it isn't. JKR herself stated in an interview that Dementors
caused clinical depression. They affect *anyone*, but those with
traumatic memories are affected more than others.

Amy wrote:
 
> I think boggarts, on the other hand, can turn into things you've never 
> encountered; they aren't about memory, but fear.  Parvati hasn't 
> necessarily ever seen a mummy--she's just scared of the thought of 
> them.  What do you think?

I think you are right here. A boggart can be purely abstract IMO. It
represents you worst fear, whether you have ever faced it in real life
or not.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu [mailto:irbohlen at email.unc.edu]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Multicultural Harry Potter

> I was thinking of getting the German versions, but am I right in 
> thinking they are not out in paperback yet?

No, they aren't out in paperback yet, but at least the first three
books aren't as expensive as "adult" books would be, they are
marketed as children's books. I got them for my father a few
months ago. I haven't read the whole German text, but from
what I've read I'd say that the translation is *very* bad (I'm a
trained translator, so maybe I'm a bit too harsh here). What
bugged me most apart from the many mistakes was that
the translator didn't respect JKR's modern language but
tried to "adapt" it somehow for children. It reads a bit like
the children's books I was used to read in the early 70ies.

> Also, speaking of visions of Harry, I really don't like the Harry on 
> the cover of the German editions. *wry grin* He looks waaaay too 
> ...ummm...existential? like he ought to be wearing a black 
> rollneck and smoking a cigarette?

I don't like them, either. His glasses look as though they were
about to fall off his nose, and I don't like his hair. BTW, I have
seen other illustrations by the same artist in the German 
magazine "Stern", where he drew most of the other characters,
too. They *all* had their hair sticking out of their heads, even
Sirius Black. <shudders> I quite like the British illustrations,
though.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Apr 20 17:37:28 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:37:28 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <3AE070C6.4D481E34@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bps4o+f3g2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17255

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class 
show
> > up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would he see a
> > Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?
> 
> Wow. I had never, ever considered this aspect of Snape leaving the 
room.
> Ooo. I have nothing to add but my admiration for Magda, that she 
spotted
> this! I already have a couple reasons to reread things, add this one 
to
> the list. I'm going to have to start reading with a clipboard next 
to
> me, for notes.
> 
> I wonder if he'd have seen someone he cared about, since what he 
seems
> to fear (or at least avoid the most) is closeness? Hmmmmmm.
> 
> --Amanda
> 

Wow! I agree with Amanda! My first impression was that Snape didn't 
want to stick around and watch. My second impression was that Snape 
was in the Teacher's Lounge for some quiet time and Lupin bringing his 
class in these disturbed him...grumble grumble. But I was happy that 
Snape didn't stick around...Can you imagine if Snape saw Boggart-Snape 
dressed in drag? He'd hit the roof!

But IIRC, Snape didn't seem too surprized that there WAS a boggart. 
Maybe Snape was recovering from a boggart encounter when the DADA 
class came in? Speculation: wouldn't it be something if Snape's 
boggart is Baby Harry with the fresh cut on his forehead or maybe 
Sirius Black?

:-)Milz




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 17:41:58 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:41:58 -0000
Subject: Harry's strength and Voldemort's fear (Was Re: Harry Character Sketch)
In-Reply-To: <9bnvg5+pahq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bpsd6+sbni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17256

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Wow!  You really tore me apart here!  That's cool, though.  My 
> students and I have voice raising debates in class several times a 
> week :-)
> > 
> > he's really very average.  Other than
> > his outstanding Quidditch talents and a natural
> > ability with DATDA, he really isn't super-powerful or
> > anything.  He just has many fine attributes and a bit
> > of luck.  ;)
> 
> I guess because I have such faith in Harry (I do love him to death, 
> you know), I can't accept that he is 'just average'.  He had two 
> parents who were well respected in the wizard community, and in 
PoA, 
> there is mention of how exceptionally bright James was.  Remember, 
he 
> was able to become an animagus as well as help make the Marauders' 
Map 
> at a young age.  Some of that must have been passed down to 
Harry.      
> > 
> >
> > 
> > Again, I have to disagree.  We have no real evidence
> > of that.  Indeed, when Harry met Voldemort last, he
> > treated Harry as nothing more than a petty threat.  On
> > Voldy's part, we see little more than confidence and
> > hatred.  Certainly there are no hints of fear, as is
> > demonstrated by Voldemort's arrogant sneering towards
> > Harry.  But then, that's just my opinion.
> 
> Voldie can't want Harry dead from hatred alone.  He fears (IMO) 
what 
> Harry will become as he gets older and a better wizard.  Harry has 
> something (I'm not sure what) on Voldie that scares the hell out of 
> Voldie, which is why he wants to destroy Harry (that was quite 
jumbled 


Sorry for including all of this debate - couldn't sort it out 
properly.  

My comment is this.  I agree that Voldemort fears Harry.  l don't 
think that Harry defeating Voldemort in the graveyard was purely 
luck, either.  Don't forget that when the wands connected, it is 
Harry who manages to force Voldemort's wand to go into priori 
incantatem, not the other way round - surely showing that Harry at 
this point is showing more strength than Voldy is.  JKR certainly 
doesn't offer any other explanation for it.

I do believe that Harry has the makings of a powerful wizard - but 
what gives him the power to defeat someone such as Voldemort in this 
scene is his sheer force of will, determination and sense of self-
preservation.  His magic is stronger and more effective when he is 
under pressure.  His ability to summon his patronus is another 
example of this.  

So, I do believe that Harry is above average - even if it is only in 
times of severe stress, and not just because he needs a good mark in 
class.  I am not surprised after this scene that Voldemort fears 
him.  He probably hates him even more as well - afterall, V. has just 
lost himself a lot of kudos with the DEs.  It wouldn't surprise me if 
they all regard Harry with some kind of superstitious fear after this 
one.

Catherine




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 20 17:55:05 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:55:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
References: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01f501c0c9c3$081d0860$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17257

I'm a lurker, but my lurking is not based on fear.  I just enjoy reading the
discussions, and don't have the time or inclination to add my own input most
of the time.  I do enough detailed literary analysis writing in school; I
don't really want to do more in my free time.  When I have something that I
think will add to the discussion, I will add it... That just doesn't happen
very often.  I post much more often on OTChatter and PoU.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Currently Reading: "1st to Die" by James Patterson
Last Movie Seen:  "Charlie's Angels" - 4 out of 5 stars
------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: <nera at rconnect.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:41 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are
:)


> Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person that
> I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add their
> questions or opinions to the list.
>
> Also, why do so many newbies preface their questions or opinions with
> lengthy apologies, which sound as if they are pleading someone's
> humble forgiveness? Do the rest of us scare you?
>
> If I just wanted to read about HP, I would probably surf all of the
> HP websites. I have found that the most fun thing about this group is
> the fact that I can ask questions or cast my opinion out there among
> the rest. Sometimes I get feedback, sometimes not. Sometimes I get
> feedback that I did not expect. You have to be able to accept
> criticism in here. I have made some horrific canon blunders and got
> nailed for it. :) I have also asked some questions which had been on
> other peoples' minds too. :):):)
>
> If you are a newbie and worried that your question has been hashed &
> rehashed to death, maybe it has. Then again, maybe it has not. There
> are so many sides to every issue. Perhaps yours is just the new
> perspective that we need to see. How will we ever know this for sure
> if you just sit there, keeping all of your incredible ideas locked up
> in your head?
>
> If you ask a question, I am reasonably certain that the veterans of
> the channel can direct you to the exact letters where it has been
> previously discussed. There just might be others, though, who don't
> mind discussing it again. There might just be still others who have
> not had the chance to be *in* the previous discussions, but would
> like to be now. Take a chance. Post that question or opinion. It is
> not like someone is going to shoot you or anything. You might get
> forced to fluff some bunny slippers, though. Just a warning.
>
> Doreen, who would love to hear from the other 1,000 people on the
> list. If you are really really shy, my email address is
> nera at rconnect.com
>
>
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Apr 20 17:56:13 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:56:13 -0000
Subject: Speaking up, Previously-Discussed Topics, FAQs and more
In-Reply-To: <3AE05AFD.9EFE3489@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9bpt7t+l7li@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17258

MECHANIMAGUS MODERATOR TAKES THE SLOW LANE

Penny has said everything I would have said and a bit more. 

At no point would I want new members or veterans here to feel 
alienated by my ADMIN of this list and if I have offended anyone with 
my (16" bamboo, rather rigid) moderating wand, I'm sorry. I'm not 
pregnant, but I do have mood swings. 

I guess I *could* just polish the wand rather than thwacking it about 
all the time.  Let's see...

Any old hands who get snarky risk having their own, quavering first 
post to this list hung out to dry in the Files section, so be warned! 
Oooh... and some of them are classics [I'm using... the... search... 
facility... yeah, it is a pain in the butt sometimes].

As Penny said, we have a gaggle of List Elves waiting in the wings to 
assist with newbie concerns. In fact, they are running around me this 
very minute, chuckling to themselves, tugging at my second best robes 
and occasionally banging their lumpen heads against a brick wall.  In 
the background, they have "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" on repeat play on 
one of those fandangly Muggle music machines.  Honestly, I...

"OY! SHUT UP!!! You're giving me one of my heads!!" 

***

Here be magic.  Let's keep it that way!

Neil
______________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator







From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 17:57:46 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:57:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE07899.ED1961AC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17259

Still catchin' up, sorry.

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?

It was Socially Expected. If it were Found Out that they had not
fulfilled an obligation properly, they would not be able to believe
themselves Superior To Others. The Dursleys believe appearance is
everything.

>  Did they feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?

Obligated, in the sense of necessity, to keep magic from occurring in
their house or being associated with them at all. Obligated in the sense
of they MUST protect their lifestyle and respectability. So they
probably would think yes, it was a duty.

>  Was Petunia even upset when she heard that her sister died?

I'd say relieved, although she'd never admit it (it's Not Done), and
probably did any public displays of mourning necessary for Proper
Display of Grief After Relative Dies.

>  Were they threatened (or charmed) by Dumbledore?

Probably not threatened, at least not intentionally, but probably they
feel terribly threatened just knowing that Harry has a wizard looking
out for his interests anywhere in the world. And I doubt even Dumbledore
could charm the Dursleys.

> 6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and
> the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's
> personality?

Boring answer. Plot reasons come into play. I think Harry needed both a
wizard friend and a muggle friend. The wizarding friend is the source of
information for the readers on the whole wizarding world and way of
life. The muggle friend is a contrasting character to Harry, a
complement to the wizard friend, someone of similar background to Harry,
confronting things for the first time, but providing a different
viewpoint. Is the technical term a "foil"? I don't recall, sorry.

I think that Ron's and Hermione's characters evolved firstly as this,
plot necessities, and then took on characteristics and personalities of
their own as they developed in the writing process.

I *said* it was a boring answer.

> 7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?

It makes better reading than having him good at Herbology?  <g>

>  How come he knows how to fly a broomstick without even being taught?
> Does it have something to do with his past?

I thought he probably took after his father. It was in book 1 that
McGonagall tells Harry that his father was an excellent Quidditch
player, and JKR said he was a Chaser, which calls for dexterity. So I
thought this was an inherited ability, like I can spell real well like
my mom could.

>  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not only the only one to have ever
> defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born Quidditch superstar?

Point: He didn't "defeat" Voldemort. He hasn't yet. He survived an
attack, and something caused the spell to rebound. We don't know if he
caused the rebound. I still find it noteworthy that it *did* rebound,
instead of swooshing on harmlessly past--why did it turn back onto
Voldemort? But anyway, we can't give Harry the credit, at least not yet.

He didn't defeat Voldemort with Quirrell. He survived. He did defeat Tom
Riddle, but I'm not sure that counts in the way you're meaning it. He
didn't defeat the reanimated Voldemort--he got the upper hand in the
Priori Incantatem, which gave him a tiny edge of time to evade and
escape him.

And I think he *could* be a Quidditch superstar, but right now he's a
14-year-old very good student player. So no, I don't think it's too
much.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 18:02:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:02:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bmm54+87kt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE079AD.96C67983@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17260

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> If Harry dies, what is the point of the noble crusade he has pursued
> for good and against evil Voldemort?

To quote Sirius:
"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has
ever existed?...Only innocent lives..!" (p. 375, PoA, US).

There would be no point, it would be soul-wrenching, if Harry dies and
Voldemort lives. But I can handle it if Harry dies so that Voldemort
will. That is noble, and has quite a valid and valuable point.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Apr 20 18:08:45 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:08:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
References: <9bne0c+tv6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE07B2C.38EDEC7E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17261

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> Did V. hear of the prediction (that the last Potter will be his
> downfall?), and in the classic fatalistic train went to eliminate the
> danger only to fulfill the prediction? I doubt it. Why would he take
> Trelawney's prediction seriously, even if by some far off chance he
> had heard of it? She doesn't precisely inspire respect, does she? I
> can't see V. doing anything but laughing his "high, cold laugh" on
> hearing that that ridiculous woman predicted that a baby will be the
> downfall of the most powerfull dark wizard in a century.

Wow, good take. I hadn't thought of that. If it was her first accurate
prediction, how would anyone know it was an accurate prediction? Given
her usual manner, you'd have to be Lavender Brown to take her seriously.
Voldemort seems a bit more practical.

Also, you don't know a prediction is accurate until it happens, then
what she predicted must have happened already, no? So did she predict
Voldemort's downfall, or did she predict an attack on the Potters? Their
deaths? Snape's turning? What other seminal things that *actually
happened,* besides these, could it have been?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Apr 20 18:55:03 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:55:03 -0700
Subject: The Ancient Spell
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420113612.00c225f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17262

I just finished listen to GoF again... At the very end Mrs. Weasley
tell Harry she thinks Dumbledore will let him come later in the
summer.  Does the mean that D. has found a way to transfer
the ancient spell protecting him from Privet Drive to the
Burrow?  And is there a catch?  I have this idea that Harry
*has* to be in proximity to a blood relative, meaning that
D. needs to find a way to get at least Dudley to go to
the Burrow!  Is this possible?  Maybe if he sent Moody
over to threaten to turn him into a ground sloth...?


                                                 -- Dave




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 20 19:04:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolves and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <3AE06DC5.A588328@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010420190447.29504.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17263

> Lupin tells the troika,
> "They [the marauders] couldn't keep me company as humans, so they
> kept me company as animals....A werewolf is only a danger to 
> people." (p. 354, PoA, US).

Which raises an interesting question: how do four boys disappear
every month for a few days with no one asking questions?  Or does
this werewolf thing only happen at night?  I thought that at first
but Lupin's reference to the potion helping him stay a mere wolf and
sleeping through the danger period sounded like it might refer to
entire 24-hour blocks of time.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 19:05:30 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:05:30 -0000
Subject: Who killed J&L
In-Reply-To: <9bpo07+u317@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bq19q+pa1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17264

Steve wrote:

> Using the reverse spells coming out of the wand, then, we can 
> literally recreate the events of October 31, 1981, at midnight. And 
> when we do that, we see that Harry's parents were killed (in which 
> ever order, doesn't matter) AFTER Voldemort was already hit by his 
> own spell and reduced to a noncorporeal state. He therefore could
> NOT have cast the spells that killed Lily and James, although his 
> wand was obviously used for those murders.

Where do you get the idea that Voldemort was destroyed before James 
and Lily were killed? In PoA when Harry is first learning how to do 
the patronus he starts remembering more of what happened that night. 
(Starting on pg. 239 PoA US ver.) James tells Lily to run and take 
Harry while he holds "Him" off, then he here's stumbling. More than 
likely James falling after Voldemort killed him. Harry then hears his 
mom pleading with Voldy She was shielding Harry so then she would 
have been the next one killed by Voldy. When he then tried to kill 
Harry the curse backfired and bounced off Harry back onto Voldemort 
although not powerful enough to completely kill him just reduce him 
to a mere shadow.

As for the wand's reverse spell. Dumbledore says in GoF (pg. 697 US) 
that it "is a kind of reverse echo. A shawdow of the living Cedric 
would have emerged from the wand..."  The last murders the wand 
performed would appear in reverse order. So if they are only echos of 
what actually happened then one could assume that the AV spell 
wouldn't been seen just the end result.

Cheers,

Kristin




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Apr 20 19:17:57 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:17:57 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <3ADFD48B.6142ED07@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9bq215+fa7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17265

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at s...> 
wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> Just an observation....
> 
> I've been flipping through the pages of my HP desk top calander, 
and I've noticed something. In a lot of the pictures, Harry looks 
like he has smelt something bad, or is constipated....I'm not sure 
which...
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this? Or am I just a delusional guy who 
hates shift work, and hates being up at two in the morning?
> 
> Hugs
> Jamieson
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Transported to a surreal landscape,
> a young girl kills the first woman she
> meets and thenteams up with three complete
> strangers to kill again. - Marin County
> newspaper's TV listing for
> The Wizard of Oz


No, Jamieson, you're not!!  In fact, I resisted buying the desktop 
calendar for the longest time, because I *hated* the art.  Some of 
it's good, but most of it--gah!  I'm *extremely* picky about the 
merchandise I'll buy, as well.  I own nothing with Harry's likeness 
because of the reason you state. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 19:24:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:24:56 -0000
Subject: The Ancient Spell
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420113612.00c225f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9bq2e8+p17l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17266

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> I just finished listen to GoF again... At the very end Mrs. Weasley
> tell Harry she thinks Dumbledore will let him come later in the
> summer.  Does the mean that D. has found a way to transfer
> the ancient spell protecting him from Privet Drive to the
> Burrow?  

That would sure be nice, but it might not mean that at all.  
Dumbledore probably knew that Harry spent the last couple of weeks of 
the summer at the Burrow right before 4th year ("doesn't miss a trick, 
that man"), and he didn't fire an owl off to Arthur and Molly telling 
them to send that boy home.  So maybe he'll just let him go.

On the other hand, the previous summer, Voldemort hadn't returned.  
The guards on Harry, whatever they are, have to be tougher than ever 
right now.

So . . .

> I have this idea that Harry
> *has* to be in proximity to a blood relative, meaning that
> D. needs to find a way to get at least Dudley to go to
> the Burrow!  Is this possible?  Maybe if he sent Moody
> over to threaten to turn him into a ground sloth...?

How about =really= turning him into a ground sloth and bringing him to 
stay at the Burrow in that form?  D'you think the magic would still 
hold?  The gnomes would get a kick out of him, and the whole 
experience might improve his personality.  He could live in a box in 
Percy's room (she says, hoping Penny is off having a baby and not 
reading this).

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
   "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry
 said furiously.  "Look at the Dursleys!"
   "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------------




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 11:24:10 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:24:10 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
Message-ID: <LAW2-F74nAl6fbNwEmk0000bcbb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17267

Samaporn wrote:
<snip>



>Just had to bring up Louisa May Alcott and 'Little Women' again. I read
>somewhere that she had Laurie marry Amy because she was annoyed at people
>wanting to see Jo and Laurie together ... =P

Not completely OT, I thought the reason she didn't have Jo marry Laurie was 
that Jo was based on herself, and Laurie on someone she knew and it would 
just have been too embarassing.  The connection is that JKR has often said 
Hermione is based on herself as a girl, or at any rate has much in common 
with her.  Someone pointed out that that's one reason Hermione won't die (I 
agree).  Perhaps it's also one reason Hermione won't be other than a friend 
to Harry.  Not that I want to get into the whole shipping thing...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Fri Apr 20 21:25:02 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:25:02 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <9bq215+fa7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bq9fe+48qu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17268

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
>>...because I *hated* the art.  Some of it's good, but most of it--
gah!<<

LOL, I second that "Gah!". I was completely disgusted by the HP stuff 
that exploded onto the scene around Christmastime. I mean, half of 
the art had Harry with that before-mentioned dopey look, plus the 
figurines had Hermione with *blonde* hair and *blue* eyes, and she 
looked very boyish. I hated it. Plus there was the "Potions" poster, 
with Snape (albeit, a clean-shaven Snape, which was a plus) but he 
had long *purple* fingernails! WHAT is that all about?! ;P

I never bought any of the official stuff, and I never will, unless it 
improves tremendously. 

My favorite HP art (well, not including my own, which is very near 
and dear to my heart, but not available on the Net, as I don't have a 
scanner) has to be Tealin Raintree's. I think that some of the anime 
stuff is really awesome, but it's not my personal favorite style. :)

Tealin's site is down right now, but you can see some of the artwork 
here, thanks to HP Galleries:

http://www.hpgalleries.com/art1.htm

The actual site is much better; Tealin illustrates a ton of scenes, 
but alas! Geocities is evil, I suppose. :)

Lyda




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 22:33:28 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:33:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch!  (with FF snippet)
Message-ID: <dd.13602976.28121338@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17269

>i think the reason the dursleys took in harry was because they were afraid 
of what dumbledore might do if they did not


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 22:35:30 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:35:30 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch!  (with FF snippet)
Message-ID: <d7.5688745.281213b2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17270

>i hate the whole thing of hermoine in the hospital while harry and ron take 
voldie one-on-one, why not ron in the hospital....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 22:37:23 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:37:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron to die? (was: well, as it's still Ron's week...)
Message-ID: <6a.d546723.28121423@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17271

jk has said in interviews h,h,and r will not die (in the book series 1-7)
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 22:38:26 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:38:26 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do adults read Harry Potter?
Message-ID: <37.13f7a49d.28121462@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17272

Dear Sabrina,
Read the books, then you will understand.
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Fri Apr 20 22:40:04 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:40:04 -0000
Subject: Why I lurk AND a question (Ministry of Magic)
In-Reply-To: <9boieg+ip5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqds4+na69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17273

> > But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night 
> when I
> > was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it, but 
> why is
> > it people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys. Why not 
> someone
> > from Ministry of Magic?
> > 
> > -- 
> > // Lea
> 
> This same question bothered me. My guess is that we will find the 
> answer to it in the next book, "The Order of the Phoenix". My guess 
> is that Dumbledore, James Potter, and some others all belonged to 
OOP 
> and we will find out this answer and many more exciting facts about 
> them. (I would tell you that this was a great question ... but I 
will 
> let someone else do that... since it was my question too) :)))
> 

I've always thought that the Misistry of Magic was not very functional 
during the Voldemort years - either by mass infiltration or multiple 
deaths or whatever.  I thought that Fudge took over as minister after 
V's downfall (though looking back at the reference in PS it doesn't 
say this - are there any clues in the pensieve trial scenes as to 
when Fudge became minister?).  Anyway I think Dumbledore and his 
faithful (who I like to think of as 'the old gang') rather took 
matters into their own hands and no-one over-ruled them.  (If Fudge 
was the minister he was supposed to owl Dumbledore for advice every 
day anyway - so it would have been fairly easy for Dumbledore to take 
charge over the fate of Harry)

Florence

Florence




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 22:41:09 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:41:09 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <39.13c5328c.28121505@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17274

>is there any way the dursleys could be the seckret-keeper???????
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr 20 23:14:53 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:14:53 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Stills
In-Reply-To: <9bplij+pbtr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqftd+e8vs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17275

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
<snipetty>
>   Maybe this is the first Potions class, and 
> there is some dialogue between Ron and Harry on their way 
into class  that isn't in that spot in the book.
> 
> It looks to me as if this isn't yet a three-way interaction, but
that Ron is saying something to Harry that's making him smile 
and that 
> Draco is about to make a smart-ass remark.

Great idea! ..and seeing Bridget Jones's Diary last week 
reminded me that sometimes trailers have things that end up 
not even being in the film, or else changed out of all recognition;
there were some dialogue changes between film and trailer in 
BJD.

I also have to agree with you about Professor Flitwick...I had 
imagined his being...thinner, somehow, and not so "round" 
looking. I like your shock of hair off to the side idea!

Still and all, at least with the children, they seem to have done a 
wonderful job of casting. I know Ron isn't so tall and thin as he is 
described in the book, but he does have naturally red hair and 
let's face it, out of all the thousands of children they auditioned 
they must have chosen the best! Besides, at that age, who can 
tell? The actor playing Harry might sprout up very tall next 
summer and the one playing Ron remain short, or vice versa. I 
think they had to go with acting ability, and looks second.

Ivis





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Apr 20 23:37:55 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:37:55 -0000
Subject: The Dementors
In-Reply-To: <3AE070C6.4D481E34@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bqh8j+pukv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17276

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class 
show
> > up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would he see a
> > Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?
> 
> Wow. I had never, ever considered this aspect of Snape leaving the 
room.
> Ooo. I have nothing to add but my admiration for Magda, that she 
spotted
> this! I already have a couple reasons to reread things, add this 
one to
> the list. I'm going to have to start reading with a clipboard next 
to
> me, for notes.
> 
> I wonder if he'd have seen someone he cared about, since what he 
seems
> to fear (or at least avoid the most) is closeness? Hmmmmmm.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
Good point, Amanda (as usual).  I wonder if he'd have seen Mouldy 
Voldy or someone he'd killed while a DE.  That part of his past seems 
to haunt him as well.

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr 20 23:41:29 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:41:29 -0000
Subject: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
In-Reply-To: <9bplgn+n3v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqhf9+41lq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17277

Gah! I spent an hour at lunchtime today trying to reply to this, 
previewing it about six times to get the line lengths right--and it 
never appeared so I must have hit cancel instead of send!

anyway...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> This is all fresh in my mind, as I have just finished listening to 
> GoF on cd.  It really upset me.  Hearing it read aloud brought 
home 
> to me again what a traumatic experience Harry was put 
through.  
> Although he seem to be coming out of it, he does appear to be 
in 
> shock and traumatised by the all of the events which occur 
during and  after the third task.
> 

You know, this is weird..I had read GoF a couple of times when it 
came out and thought it was great, but really not as dark as I'd 
expected.

Then I was confined to bed for a month with a broken leg, and 
_listened_ to all the HP tapes [US versions] and, when I got to 
GoF--Wow! I too was incredibly upset. The scene with Voldemort 
was suddenly very frightening ...Cedric's death a tragic irony... 
Harry's return via portkey and refusal to let go of Cedric started 
the tears.. . and the scene with Molly Weasley afterwards had me 
bawling like a baby! Having read it again since, the effect has 
stayed with me. I just don't know why hearing it read was so 
much more affecting.

As to Harry going back to the Dursleys...well, I  think we have to
trust Dumbledore. He was right about making Harry tell the story 
of what happened right afterwards, when Sirius would have sent 
him off to a hospital bed; he was right about leaving Harry with 
the Dursleys in the first place for a "muggle" upbringing so that 
he could have 10 years of _not_ being "famous Harry Potter"... I 
think he must know what he's doing here. And I do think [well, 
hope really] Harry  will spend some time at the end of the 
summer at the Burrow.

It's hard to wait patiently until next year, isn't it? 

Ivis
[Hermione/Ron & Harry/Ginny shipper, but post-canon--they're 
only going to be 18 at the end, yes? :)]





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Apr 20 23:52:21 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:52:21 -0000
Subject: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
In-Reply-To: <3AE05F70.D2A6F2A5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9bqi3l+a97m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17278

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering that if Dumbledore has invoked ancient magic to
> > protect Harry whilst he is at the Dursleys' house, why coudn't he
> > transfer this so somewhere such as the Burrow is equally well
> > protected?  The thought of him spending any more time than 
strictly
> > necessary with his horrible relatives makes me miserable.
> 
> It's in my mind that the "ancient magic" has to do with the Dursleys
> being blood relations. I'm trying to figure out why I think that (my
> books are not available)--does it say that in so many words, or is 
this another of JKR's primrose paths?
> 
> If it must be blood kin, then he couldn't have stayed with Sirius,
> either, provoking a comment some time back about the scene that 
would > have ensued, if Sirius *had* been cleared, and then Harry 
finding out he has to go back to the Dursleys anyway. 'Twas 
speculated that this is one plot reason for not clearing Sirius' 
name, too.
> 
> --Amanda, gettin' old
> 
 I believe you're right, Amanda.  I think I recall something about 
the family relationship being important.  (My books are unavailable 
also - how stupid can we be???  Maybe I need a second set to use as 
reference sources.) I'm also assuming that the blood relationship is 
important in Harry's case only in combination with some sort of 
familial magic.  I can't simply buy into the idea that a child is 
better off with relatives, rather than other guardians, just because 
of a blood relationship.  So, this inevitably leads me to the 
Petunia/Dudley-finds-magic-later-in-life theory.  I really don't like 
that idea either, because I don't like either of them, and I'll be 
annoyed if they suddenly become in tune with their magical side.  

I never thought that there would be a problem with Sirius being 
cleared and Harry having to go to the Dursleys anyway. Harry can't 
spend a lot of time with Sirius at this point in the series because 
it would naturally lead to him asking a lot of questions about his 
parents, and I don't think that we will be given the answers to most 
of those questions for a while.  I think Sirius will be on the run 
for at least one more book.

Marianne, who's thinking of horrible threats to use to get her books 
back!!!






From shadowcat_7777 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 00:01:45 2001
From: shadowcat_7777 at yahoo.com (kitty pryde)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Multicultural Harry Potter
In-Reply-To: <987787532.2717.84778.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421000145.8204.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17279

--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote> 
> Any french people around here who could verify that
> the name hasnt 
> been changed in the french editions?
> 

You can see the HP names in many different languages
at this site, including French :

http://www.eulenfeder.de/int/gbint.html


Katya



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From auburn at eudoramail.com  Sat Apr 21 00:20:38 2001
From: auburn at eudoramail.com (S i r e n)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:20:38 -0000
Subject: good slash fics/slash authors?
In-Reply-To: <0ac701c0babc$45847320$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9bqjom+a1hj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17280

Saitaina, I love your sig!  So funny

> Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition. 
> Where there's a will, I want to be in it. 
> OK, who stopped payment on my reality check? 
> Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very 
funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. 
> Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. 
> Consciousness: That annoying time between naps
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From auburn at eudoramail.com  Sat Apr 21 00:20:51 2001
From: auburn at eudoramail.com (S i r e n)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:20:51 -0000
Subject: Your sig
In-Reply-To: <0ac701c0babc$45847320$a14e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9bqjp4+6aen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17281

Saitaina, I love your sig!  So funny

> Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition. 
> Where there's a will, I want to be in it. 
> OK, who stopped payment on my reality check? 
> Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. Very 
funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes. 
> Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. 
> Consciousness: That annoying time between naps
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 00:30:27 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:30:27 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
In-Reply-To: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqkb3+hs28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17282

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
snip
> 
 
> 3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
> after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
> indicated in any way how Harry will end up?
> 
I need more info - a convincing case can be made for either ending.

> 4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they 
> feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?

They felt obligated to take Harry in. And an emphatic YES they feel 
they must beat the magic out of Harry.  Ample evidence for that can 
be seen in Vernon's total meltdown when the letters from Hogwarts 
started to arrive for Harry.

> 5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who 
> will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, 
or  someone else?  

Maybe no one.  Or maybe there will be a slight hint that Harry is 
gay - nothing overt, but just enough to cause people to argue that hs 
is/isn't.

> > 
> 7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows 
how  to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
> something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is 
not 
> only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-
born 
> Quidditch superstar?
> 
Sheer natural ability.  I've always had the belief that we each have 
one true talent, and that we may not find it until we stumble over it 
or the opportunity to pursue it falls into our laps.  I may be a 
world-class bagpipe player, but since I've never tried playing them, 
I don't know how good I can be.  Harry didn't know he'd be good at 
flying or Quidditch - the opportunity to try it was presented to him.

Marianne, with full knowledge that she's no athlete. 





From amy at pressroom.com  Sat Apr 21 00:44:12 2001
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:44:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie casting problems
References: <9bpb65+rauc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014001c0c9fc$2fad4500$0200a8c0@pressroom.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17283

Inyron writes:
  I wasn't too pleased with the Ron-choice at first, but the seconds of 
  trailer footage have convinced me.  He's just so cute there.  And the 
  expression on his face is so *Ron*.  I would have been more upset if 
  they had gotton a tall enough actor, but gotton that wrong.

  I agree. I didn't like Rupert Grint as Ron when I first saw him either. He still doesn't look like what Ron looks like in my mind but I think he'll make a good Ron.

  As for Richard Harris as Dumbledore, he doesn't portray him to me. Especially in the new still-he does not look Dumbledore-y enough to me.

  But who knows? I'm just basing this on the *minutes* we have seen of the movie. Maybe I'll have changed my mind after I have seen the movie.

  Amy G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From driveslucy at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 00:59:29 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:59:29 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Character Sketch - Part 3 of 3
Message-ID: <37.13f607c8.28123571@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17284

Good summary.  Thanks!

> Questions
>  
>  1.  The primary question about Harry, which we have discussed a 
>  million times, is WHY does Voldemort want to kill him?  And why did 
>  he kill James and Lily, for that matter?

We know that Lily was killed because she was protecting Harry.  The question 
is why does he need to kill James and Harry.  Right now I think it may be 
related to them being heirs of Gryffindor, but it's all guessing until we 
know more about James.

>  
>  2.  What was Professor Trelawney's first correct prediction?  Was it 
>  about Harry?  More importantly, was it that only Harry could kill 
>  Voldemort?  Or that Harry would lead the fight against Voldy, or that 
>  only Harry could do something that would lead to Voldy's defeat?  Or 
>  that only a child born to the Potters could defeat Voldy?  WHAT WAS 
>  IT?  (Yes, I know this has been discussed to death)

I know I should be paying more attention to Trelawny's predictions but, like 
Hermione, she drives me crazy and I tend to mentally stomp off during her 
scenes!!
>  
>  3.  Will Harry's life end in tragedy or will he live happily ever 
>  after?  Is there a reasonable argument for either, i.e. has JKR 
>  indicated in any way how Harry will end up?

I will be devastated if Harry has to die.  I tend to think that Harry's fate 
lies somewhere in the middle; he will live but he will suffer many more 
losses.
>  
>  4.  Why the hell did the Dursleys take Harry in, anyway?  Did they 
>  feel obligated to beat the magic out of him?  Was Petunia even upset 
>  when she heard that her sister died?  Were they threatened (or 
>  charmed) by Dumbledore?

I don't think that Dumbledore threatened them but I do think that they look 
after Harry primarily out of fear that he could pose a threat.  If Lily spoke 
at all about what went on at Hogwarts Petunia would almost certainly know 
that Dumbledore is considered the greatest wizard of his time.  But they are 
not completely cowed by him.  For instance, even though they feel compelled 
to keep Harry they are obstinate enough to refuse to tell Harry anything 
about his true background, which clearly must have been part of Dumbledore's 
instructions to them.  
>  
>  5.  Probably the most popular question about Harry Potter is ? Who 
>  will he fall in love with?  Will it be Cho Chang, Hermione, Ginny, or 
>  someone else?  This has already been discussed to death, but I'm sure 
>  the Shipping Contingent wants to discuss it some more.  Knock 
>  yourselves out.

Okay, I will "come out" as a Harry/Ginny shipper.  But only when (not if!) 
she is more fully developed, which I expect in 5, 6 and 7.  Ginny has to 
mature to be worthy of Harry and, of course, Harry has to notice her!  I want 
him in that family.  But to think that all the Weasleys will go happily into 
the sunset is unlikely.  The coming war will be devastating and I have a 
feeling that some of the losses that will hit Harry closest to home will be 
from the only family he has ever known.
>  
>  6.  What does the fact that Harry has chosen the fun-loving Ron and 
>  the bookish Hermione as his two best friends say about Harry's 
>  personality?

That he goes for substance over style!  
>  
>  7.  Why is Harry such a good Quidditch player?  How come he knows how 
>  to fly a broomstick without even being taught?  Does it have 
>  something to do with his past?  Isn't it a bit much that Harry is not 
>  only the only one to have ever defeated Voldemort AND a natural-born 
>  Quidditch superstar?
>  

I think flying ability, like musical ability, is something one is born with.  
Like a musician, you still have to practice, but there is probably not much 
one can do if the natural ability is not there.  We also know the both Lily 
and James were very talented wizards in their own right; it's not surprising 
that Harry, as their child, would inherit some of that talent which, combined 
with Lily's sacrifice, enabled Harry to defeat Voldemort.

Luce



From driveslucy at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 01:04:06 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:04:06 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <a7.db91ce8.28123686@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17285

In a message dated 4/20/01 6:53:34 PM Central Daylight Time, 
irbohlen at email.unc.edu writes:

> Then I was confined to bed for a month with a broken leg, and 
>  _listened_ to all the HP tapes [US versions] and, when I got to 
>  GoF--Wow! I too was incredibly upset. The scene with Voldemort 
>  was suddenly very frightening ...Cedric's death a tragic irony... 
>  Harry's return via portkey and refusal to let go of Cedric started 
>  the tears.. . and the scene with Molly Weasley afterwards had me 
>  bawling like a baby! Having read it again since, the effect has 
>  stayed with me. I just don't know why hearing it read was so 
>  much more affecting.

I was also much more affected by hearing it read.  Suddenly it hit me just 
how quickly Voldemort could kill, and he could take Harry or Hermione or Ron. 
 If Voldemort decided to stop being the drama queen that he is and go on the 
attack could any of these children even react in time to save themselves?

Luce



From margdean at erols.com  Sat Apr 21 00:22:28 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:22:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
References: <9bqi3l+a97m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0D2C4.C4108962@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17286

Zarleycat at aol.com wrote:

>  I believe you're right, Amanda.  I think I recall something about
> the family relationship being important.  (My books are unavailable
> also - how stupid can we be???  Maybe I need a second set to use as
> reference sources.) I'm also assuming that the blood relationship is
> important in Harry's case only in combination with some sort of
> familial magic.  I can't simply buy into the idea that a child is
> better off with relatives, rather than other guardians, just because
> of a blood relationship.  So, this inevitably leads me to the
> Petunia/Dudley-finds-magic-later-in-life theory.  I really don't like
> that idea either, because I don't like either of them, and I'll be
> annoyed if they suddenly become in tune with their magical side.

I think it would be perfectly possible to have a magical
protection spell based on a blood relationship (especially an
"ancient" spell -- remember what heavy, heavy symbolic
significance has been placed on blood kinship since about the
dawn of time) without there being any familial magical ability
involved.  It's not a question of the child being "better off" in
any other sense (happier, better treated) if the blood kinship is
simply a necessary "ingredient" of the spell -- which is,
perhaps, the more powerful =because= it is ancient (and therefore
the best possibility for fending off a wizard as powerful as
Voldie).

IOW I don't think we have to award magic to Petunia or Dudley to
explain why Harry might need to be with them for at least part of
the summer.  There, aren't you relieved?  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Apr 21 01:01:31 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:01:31 -0500
Subject: Godparents & Legal Guardians; Literary Analysis
References: <9bhkd8+hoid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0DBEB.9168FE99@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17287

Hi --

I've been finishing updating my FAQs whilst waiting for baby ... like
Amanda, I suddenly have a frightening number of posts I wanted to
respond to .... so here goes:

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> I'm a Brit, and I'm piping up!  I think that you're basically right.
> Godparents aren't legal guardians, but if they agree to be
> godparents, there is an implication that if something were to happen
> to the actual parents they would take a more active role in the
> child's upbringing - this would often mean taking on legal
> responsibility.  Without getting too nitpicky about it, it would
> normally have to be mentioned in a will etc.

I was actually trying to say something different.  I think Sirius was
probably Harry's legal guardian (yes, set out in a will -- that's how it
works over here too).  Sirius says something to the effect (no PoA
handy) that he was to look after Harry in the event the Potters died.
This sounds like a legal guardian role.

In a religious sense, a godparent is typically responsible for a child's
spiritual upbringing as you say, both in the event both parents die and
in the event that the parents are doing what the godparent feels should
be done (taking them to church often enough).  That's the theory in many
religious denominations anyway (not that too many godparents are going
to step in & be sure that a child goes to church over a parent's
objections but anyway).  Point is: godparents may be the same as the
legal guardian(s) appointed in the will(s) of the parents, but just as
often as not, they are different individuals.  They serve different
purposes.  There's a good chance my husband & I would name members of
our church as our baby's godparents.  But, we would probably name a
family member as legal guardian in our wills.

So ... my real question is whether the term "godfather" in the UK has
specific *religious* significance or might it be a "leftover" term
historically that gets used interchangeably with "guardian" (which
sounds more formal & legalistic to most people)?  I think Sirius is
likely Harry's legal guardian, but I question whether he is in fact
actually named a godfather in a religious ceremony.  We heard from many
British members in the past that religion is not so much a part of
mainstream life & culture in the UK as it has been in the past.  So, I
just wondered if the term "godfather" was really synonmous with guardian
for all intents & purposes in the UK.  I don't think I expressed this
well earlier this week.  :--)


> BTW Penny - I meant to post on this earlier, but I totally agreed
> with your posts on literary analysis etc.  <snip> For me, a book has
> an
> appeal when it is written so subtley that a variety of
> interpretations are possible. One can look at things contextually,
> but I prefer to look at the text alone, and I enjoy the fact that
> with each reading my feelings about the books and the interpretation
> I put on certain scenes can change, either minutely or dramatically.
> I prefer to think that someone like JKR knows her characters so well
> that many of the words she uses (particularly the adverbs which seem
> to cause the most controversy) are a mixture of design, and
> subconsciously knowing what her character is feeling during a
> particular scene.
>

Yes!  I like the fact that we can all argue and debate over the meaning
of so much of these books.  My point all along has been there is no one
single interpretation of the characters, the plot or anything else in
these books.  Thanks also to Lisa for her support on the Hermione issues
(I agree so much with your view that Hermione was trying to defend Ron
rather than put more divisiveness between Harry and Ron).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Apr 21 01:06:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:06:50 -0500
Subject: Draco as Student
References: <20010419215358.85185.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE0DD2A.A2BCD054@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17288

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> It's a logical spiral to say that because the canon doesn't
> explicitly state ABC, then an opposing view like XYZ must or was
> likely to be so.

As far as I know, no one has said that XYZ *must* or is *likely* to be
so.  Some of the alternate interpretations of say Draco are just
possibilities.  They might be just as likely to pan out as your belief
that he's just a swarmy git who has no depth whatsoever.  If there's
textual backup for either position (and there seems to be), then each
interpretation has *some* likelihood of being proven true in the later
books.

> I think we can assume things from the canon and one of those things is
> that Draco is not a student knocking himself out for high academic
> honours.

Why is your assumption any more valid than Heidi's assumption that he
might just as easily be a really bright kid academically?  As best I can
tell, there are arguments that cut both ways.  There's more than one
valid interpretation of most things IMO.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 01:25:04 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:25:04 -0000
Subject: Sirius/Lupin, GoF Dursleys
In-Reply-To: <9bpq0l+qr4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqnhh+iaf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17289

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
> Morag wrote:
> I suppose so.  I think Harry does appreciate Lupin, but Sirius is 
> just the kind of not-too-demanding, glamourous, cool, father-figure 
Harry  wants just  now.  A father-figure who was able to be around 
more of the time  might be a 
> bit much to cope with all of a sudden.  I know he wants to go and 
> live with 
> Sirius, but he is not devastated when he can't.  Sirius is also the 
> anti-Vernon - he's a wizard, owns (or owned - what happened to it?) 
a > flying  motorbike, has long hair and is on the wrong side of the 
law.  Perfect.  I  think Lupin's a little too old-looking and acting 
(though he and  Sirius must be of an age) and a little too tired and 
sad for the role.  Finally,  Sirius  was the closest to Harry's real 
father. He has seen them in the same photo, Sirius  was  his father's 
best man and is Harry's own godfather.  Sirius tells  Harry he 
 would have died for James and Lily, thus linking himself with the 
one  thing  Harry has always known about his parents - they're dead.  
It's as  close as  Harry can get to having his own father back.
> 
> 
> All these why Sirius/not Lupin points have been very enlightening 
and 
> I agree with all the excellent points you made here. However, I 
think 
> there's one more thing that should be taken into account - I have 
the 
> feeling that Lupin sort of pushes Harry away at the end of Prisoner 
> of Azkaban, and Harry is not the sort to aggressively pursue a 
> relationship (IMO) especially with an adult. And I get the 
impression 
> that Harry does try to get close to Lupin running up to his office 
> when he finds out that Lupin is leaving, he says, 
> 
> "You're the best Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher we've ever 
> had!" said Harry. "Don't go."
> Lupin shook his head and didn't speak. He carried on emptying his 
> drawers.  <snip>"
> 
> Harry had the impression that Lupin wanted to leave as quickly as 
> possible. (POA)
> 
> In addition, we must remember that Lupin never told Harry he was a 
> friend of James until it came out by accident I think during the 
help  with the dementor/boggart scene. It happens when Harry says he 
heard  James and Lupin is overcome with emotion, but I get the 
feeling he  may not have told him that he knew James otherwise - it 
seems to be a painful subject. We do see Harry reaching out to Lupin 
at the end of  the book, but there's something (maybe the werewolf 
thing, but maybe  something we will find out later) that is holding 
Lupin back from  embracing Harry as a father figure. Sirius on the 
other hand,  actively reaches out to Harry, first by inviting him to 
live with him  in the Shrieking Shack and then by keeping in touch 
with him, whereas  Lupin dismisses him with a "I'm sure we'll meet 
again, Harry" - and I 
> think many of us can agree that it is not in Harry's nature to push 
> for adult relationships.
> 
snip

What a clear assessment of the Harry/Lupin relationship.  I'd add one 
more facet to this whole thread.  Harry and Remus have a student-
teacher relationship, although with friendly overtones, that is 
allowed to build over time. Remus is hesitant to reveal to Harry that 
he was a friend of both James and Sirius.  It's all very cautious.

Harry's relationship with Sirius is much more emotional from the 
start, and, once they meet, is compressed into one evening.  Even 
though they don't meet until late in the book, Sirius' presence 
overhangs Harry. He's a killer, he's after Harry, he slashes the Fat 
Lady, etc. And once Harry and Sirius finally do meet, the entire 
scene is charged with emotion.  Harry is enraged almost to the point 
of murder; then he's incredulous that a teacher he trusted would be 
friends with this murderer. In order to make Harry believe his story, 
Sirius has to speak from the heart and describe to Harry how his plan 
to switch Secret Keepers ultimately led to the Potters' murder, in 
essence taking the blame for their deaths.

Once all the explanations are made and Harry finally believes Sirius' 
story, he can only nod because he's too overcome to give voice to his 
thoughts.  Then follows the few minutes of elation in the tunnel 
where Harry thinks he won't have to go live with the Dursleys, the 
Dementor scene, and Sirius' escape.  Perhaps Harry has a certain 
level of trust in Sirius that he doesn't have with other adults 
because circumstances have forced the two of them to deal with each 
other through honest, if sometimes painful, emotions.  

Marianne




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 01:39:57 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:39:57 -0000
Subject: Ron to die? (was: well, as it's still Ron's week...)
In-Reply-To: <6a.d546723.28121423@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9bqodd+d81o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17290

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., browneyes1420 at a... wrote:
> jk has said in interviews h,h,and r will not die (in the book 
series 1-7)
> Joe

Actually, I don't think she has said that. In all the interviews I've 
read (and in all the ones that have been discussed on this list) 
she's been deliberately vague. For instance if she's asked a question 
like, "Will you write more books about Harry after Hogwarts?" she's 
been prone to saying something like, "You're awfully sure he's going 
to survive the books, aren't you? People seem to think I'm soft-
hearted -- I'm not." Some people take this to mean that Harry is 
going to die; I don't think that's the case, I think she's keeping us 
in suspense. If she told us they would live then the books wouldn't 
be nearly as scary and fun to read.

Stacy




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 01:42:24 2001
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:42:24 -0300
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie casting problems
Message-ID: <F156I9W4bdTeAs0Aokv0000312e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17291



>
>"I agree completely. In each of the 4 current books, it states at least 
>once that Harry is short and skinny for his age. It also points out clearly 
>that Ron is a bit taller, gangly with long limbs."

The problem with this point of view I bleieve is that you paint a picture in 
your mind of what a character looks like and no actor will ever live up to 
what is in your minds eye.The reason that books are consistenly more popular 
than movies when the are the same plot or the same book. You will always be 
able to imagine things in your head much better then you can on the screen.


>"I too am displeased with the movie version of Draco. In the one still I've 
>seen of him, he just doesn't look evil enough. He looks like a baby doll in 
>my opinion. Isn't Draco suppose to have a pointed face? The actor playing 
>him certainly doesn't, at least not in the picture I saw."

I think that a lot of Draco's evilness is in his character and not 
necessarily in what  he looks like. Also we have to remember that the 
character is 11 year olds how many 11 year olds to you know that look evil??

>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 02:16:28 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:16:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Hermione's name (was: Multicultural Harry Potter)
In-Reply-To: <9bph1g+1fhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421021628.10780.qmail@web204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17292


--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> Annd (BA in french literature) wrote:
> 
> > I believe Hermione would be the French name. In
> any
> > case, Jean Racine, a French playwright from the
> 17th
> > century, wrote a play about the Trojan war called
> > "Andromaque" and there's a character named
> Hermione
> > (Helen of Troy's daughter) in it. So at least the
> name
> > exists in French literature.
> 
> So I believe my ship was named after the greek
> Hermione, too. Good to 
> know who that original Hermione was, actually. I
> didnt know! Is there 
> anything in the character or in the story of the
> mythical Hermione 
> that could give us a hint about how things will go
> on with "our" 
> Hermione?
> 
> Any french people around here who could verify that
> the name hasnt 
> been changed in the french editions?
> 
> Lea
> who passed her driving test with 100 % and who won a
> kids dancing 
> competition when she was 11 (you seem to have to
> have *some* kind of 
> qualification to be allowed to post here!)
> 
Well, I'm not a French person, though I do have the
books in French (yes, I do read it). Hermione is still
Hermione in the copies I have on hand.

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 19:55:02 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:55:02 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as student/teacher's pet
Message-ID: <LAW2-F113BUhr3ukkwu0000efff@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17293

lea wrote:

>Youre discussing whether Draco is a good student or a bright boy.
>
>I think it doesnt matter. Its not an integral part of his character,
>or we would know about it.
<snip>
Basically, I agree.  I think he is clever at one thing - he has an unerring 
instinct for people's self doubts and always attacks their weakest spot.

In Hagrid's hippogriff lesson, he is a poor student - getting injured (tho' 
not as badly as he makes out) because he is too busy undermining the teacher 
to listen to the instructions.

He's not a bad flier, and is confident on a broom (see Remembrall incident) 
but is not a good Seeker because his determination to harass Harry makes him 
forget his job to the extent that he doesn't notice the Snitch right above 
his head.

In other words, whatever his natural abilities, his drive to prevail at the 
expense of others prevents him from really doing well.  In his eyes (and 
with his father's example) prevailing at the expense of others *is* success. 
  He's not stupid, (otherwise he would not be a credible enemy) he just has 
his priorities wrong.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Sat Apr 21 02:27:32 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:27:32 -0000
Subject: Sirius and Harry
In-Reply-To: <9bqnhh+iaf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bqr6k+bp0s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17294

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
<snip part of excellent discussion of Harry/Sirius relationship>

> In order to make Harry believe his story, 
> Sirius has to speak from the heart and describe to Harry how 
his plan 
> to switch Secret Keepers ultimately led to the Potters' murder, 
in essence taking the blame for their deaths.

You know, I suddenly had a brainwave: this is such a parallel to 
Harry's experience with Cedric--that terrific irony, that in making 
the sacrifice to share the Triwizard Cup with Cedric led to 
Cedric's death. Of course, it's even worse for Sirius since the 
Potters were his best friends, but still, if anyone could 
understand what sort of guilt Harry is feeling it would be Sirius.

Another favorite parallel [I hate to call it foreshadowing, because 
it isn't exactly] is when we are introduced to wizards "floating" 
things through Bill and Charlie's delightful "table wars" only to 
see this same power in a darker light after the Quidditch World 
Cup...

I can't believe I'm still finding things in these books!

Ivis




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 21 02:32:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:32:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Character Sketch
References: <9bm145+q158@eGroups.com> <3ADF955B.9AE1C27D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3AE0F14B.1832E133@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17295

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> No .... I think there's something *special* about Harry, something
> that was prophesied and something Voldy didn't count on.

Then someone other than Trelawney must have prophesied it. The *only*
way that a true prophecy is revealed as true prophecy is when the event
*happens.* Since Trelawney's made two true predictions, the first one
has come true, or we wouldn't know about it.

Soooo, as I said someplace else, why in the world would anyone like
Voldemort listen to Trelawney's first true prediction and act on it as a
warning, when she'd never been a true seer before? He doesn't seem the
sort to put much stock in tea leaves and incense.

Thus, the first prediction could have been about baby Harry bringing
Voldemort low, but unless it came from multiple sources, I doubt it was
the reason Voldemort went Harry-hunting. I'm now betting it was about
the deaths of the Potters, or something else significant that has
occurred. Even something else that we have not heard of yet. Joanne
Rowling, packer and exporter of fine red herrings.

> I do agree that he didn't do anything terribly extraordinary
> magic-wise to survive the final encounters in SS & CoS.  But, by PoA,
> we are seeing some more powerful things out of Harry.  IMO, this will
> only increase as he matures.

The hat said he had ability, in so many words. And I don't buy that it's
all a Voldemort graft. I still think "there's something about Harry."

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 03:11:04 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:11:04 -0700
Subject: Bonfirenight
References: <20010420153834.10754.qmail@keromail.com>
Message-ID: <012b01c0ca17$136ddec0$402a243f@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 17296

Hi all,

here's something that's been bugging me for some time. In SS, right
in the beginning, the newscaster says that fireworks were seen all
over England and that bonfirenight was not until next week.
(Something to that effect anyway)

To me, bonfirenight is June 21 -- I'm neither British nor
American -- yet the day of the attack on Harry's Parents is given as
Halloween.

I was wondering if there was a different bonfirenight in England. I
faintly remember reading something in a book by Enid Blyton, about
Guy Fawkes (sp?) and Nov. 5th. Would that be it?

Please refresh my memory.

Rena




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 03:21:05 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:21:05 -0700
Subject: failed AK? (was Re: Who killed J&L)
References: <9bpoip+qlp8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012d01c0ca17$15a705e0$402a243f@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 17297

> The failed AK didn't come out in any form that Harry could see or
hear
> because it didn't have any visible or audible effects.  One might
> assume that toddler Harry at least started crying when he was cut
by
> the curse, but it's very possible that he didn't--maybe he was
knocked
> unconscious.  And V himself probably just disappeared.  Someone
hit by
> AK, judging from Cedric, may have no time even to scream.

Hold on, in GoF when Voldemort casts his AK a green light comes from
his wand which then connects to Harry's wand. And in a prior HP
book, Harry remembers seeing a green light. (forgot which book). So
whatever protection Lily has conjured for Harry it worked and
backfired. I like to think it's some kind of mirror effect or bounce
effect which then hit Voldemort. He should have killed himself,
except he'd been experimenting with spells and other stuff to make
himself immortal and thus was semiprotected.

Rena




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Apr 21 04:03:39 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:03:39 -0000
Subject: Who killed J&L
In-Reply-To: <9bq19q+pa1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9br0qr+lval@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17298


> 
> Where do you get the idea that Voldemort was destroyed before James 
> and Lily were killed? 

Because the echo, as you point out that it's called, of the spell 
that nearly destroyed Voldemort DOESN'T come out of the wand. It 
would have presumably been the next one out if Harry had maintained 
the contact and the Priori Incantatem effect. But no echo, no spell. 
That's the way the thing is described as working. As for the things 
Harry hears, remember that he doesn't actually hear anyone die, just 
the voices and the screaming. 

You could even make a case for the fact that he didn't hear his 
father at all, but someone else. After all, when he tells Lupin that 
he hears his father, Lupin gives him a peculiar look. He's never 
actually heard his father's voice at that time. Was his father even 
there? What does Lupin know about that incident that makes him 
suprised at Harry's interpretation of what he hears? Was it someone 
else having taken Polyjuice Potion? Was LUPIN there? Whoa!

Again, I am pretty sure that the JKR is NOT pulling some fancy trick 
here, but that she simply didn't think it all out in the kind of 
infinite detail that we are. But it's fun to analyze and imagine. And 
who knows...maybe I'll be proved right!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
full of "verifiable facts" and a few wild speculations
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 21 04:13:59 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:13:59 -0700
Subject: Harry & Quidditch & More  -Snape - Karkaroff - House Elves - Wizarding  Religion - Dementors
Message-ID: <3AE10906.5DEFD262@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17299

The Harry Character Sketch asked why is Harry a 'natural' at flying a
broomstick and catching a Snitch. The fact that there was already a
word, 'a natural', for  McGonagall to say to Wood indicates that this is
not a completely unheard of phenomenon in the wizarding world. However,
my reaction at first reading was: What a very convenient lucky
co-incidence it is that the "ugly duckling" has been endowed with this
great talent for doing something that not only does he love, but for
which he is respected by all and popular. Not much of a comfort, except
as a subject for daydreams, to other "ugly duckling" children who
haven't discovered any great talents yet, or maybe only a great talent
for schoolwork that leads people to call them nerd and geek and wonk and
bossy know-it-all and showing signs of OCD.

But when I read the question in the character sketch, it occurred to me
that if Harry had absorbed his Quidditch skill, along with his
Parselmouth ability, from Voldemort (who might have learned it as the
popular Tom Riddle), how absolutely miserable Harry would feel if he
ever found out.

***

Amy G asked:
> It seems like he would be more messed up mentally
> if the Dursleys treated him awful as a small child

I personally believe that whatever Lily did instead of trying to save
her own life not only made it impossible for V to touch H, but also put
a little Lily into Harry's subconscious mind, and that mental Lily
comforts him and makes him feel worthy of being loved despite those
Dursleys, which is why he is not even worse messed up mentally than he
is. Also, the description of H resisting the Imperius Charm said a voice
in H's head said No don't do it -- I am arguing that it was the voice of
the internal Lily. A strange further argument is that the reason H tries
so much more to find out about James than about Lily is because he
already has Lily.

***

hfakhro at n... asked:
> but in light of this behaviour why do they (and
> specifically Uncle Vernon) go to such lengths to keep
> Harry from going to Hogwarts. If they hate him so
> much then why go on this mad rush across half of
> England? You'd think they would be glad to get rid
> of him (and at some points it seems that they are - when
> they send him letters at Hogwarts asking if he can stay
> there for holidays).

I think (even tho' someone else already mentioned it) that the reason
that the Dursleys want to prevent Harry from going to Hogwarts rather
than simply welcoming the chance to be rid of him, is that they are
scared of what he will do to them (as just desserts) once he learns how
to do magic. Once he is at Hogwarts and learning magic, they would as
soon he stays there instead of coming home to them. They have to let
Harry live with them or otherwise Dumbledore will drop a word to
(Muggle) Child Protective Services, and the Dursleys would die of shame
at the scandal.

Wanda the Witch asked:
> Where are Harry's relations from his father's side? Why
> didn't Dumbledore send Harry to be with relations on that
> side? He must have had someone to go to on that side of
> the family. Another point they also mentioned was why just
> the Dursleys, his mom must have had other relations to
> besides her sister. If he had a Godfather, where is his
> Godmother?

Once again I say things that other people already said. Dumbledore told
McGonagall "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the
only family
he has left now." That means that all his other relatives are either
dead or in Azkaban or the mental wards of St. Mungo's (unless they are
Death Eaters who walked free and having become a Death Eater counts as
leaving the family). If James was an only child and both his parents
were only children, it isn't hard to imagine that every relative on
James's side has died heroically fighting Dark Wizards. It seems like
wizarding folk tend to have small families; maybe only children are not
rate.

It is not implausible that Mr and Mrs Evans had the usual 2 children,
Petunia and Lily and no others. The question would be, what happened to
Mr and Mrs Evans (Harry and Dudley's Muggle grandparents) and any
siblings they might have had (great-aunts and great-uncles) and children
and grandchilden of those siblings?

There is at least one Christian denomination that requires each child to
have two godparents of its sex and one of the opposite sex (as Catherine
said is her family custom) but I don't remember which denomination it
is. But 'godfather' does not necessarily mean Christian -- I know that
many Wiccans use the terms godfather and goddessmother for the people
who vow to the gods to be the child's spare parents. Oops, this is
connecting to my remarks, below, about Wizarding Religion. I don't think
it likely that there are (Wiccan) Witch witches in the HP universe, but
they could have some other religion, maybe even a uniquely wizarding
religion that I don't believe in, that has a baby naming or blessing
ceremony that involves having one godparent. Or, as someone said, Harry
had one godmother but she died. Along with Lily and James and all their
relatives except Petunia.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> If Harry dies, what is the point of the noble crusade he has
> pursued or good and against evil Voldemort?

If Harry dies to defeat Voldemort, the saga has the same archetypal plot
as Christianity's central story, which has influenced enough literature
that even non-Christian writers are affected by it.

I like to cite BRIDGE OF BIRDS as a charming novel that has a very happy
ending: everyone dies. (I hope it isn't a spoiler if I explain that all
the miserable suffering people die, ending their misery, and their
ghosts are seen finally rejoining their dead True Loves.)

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> Cho is out of the question.  I've mentioned this before,
> but how can Harry possibly date the girl whose boyfriend
> was murdered at his side?

If Harry could ever open up enough to share his grief, they could share
their grief over Cedric, slowly and gradually leading to a friendship in
which they actually get to know each other's virtues and quirks (instead
of Harry knows only that Cho is pretty, popular, and a good Seeker, and
Cho knows only that Harry is The Boy Who Live, Triwizard Champion, a bad
dancer, and a good Seeker). And the friendship could slowly and
gradually evolve into love and marriage.

Amy Z wrote:
> JKR has spared us the details of his crush--I mean, he must
> do more than just imagine Cho gazing at him admiringly now
> and then, right?  Doesn't he ever fantasize about talking to her
> or making out with her?

Me, I believe that Harry doesn't even want to *fantasize* about making
out with Cho or even talking to her, much less do so in real life. I
believe that his crush conflicts only of he likes looking at her. To me,
that is an aesthetic feeling rather than a romantic or sexual feeling. I
believe that Harry is semi-consciously deliberating avoiding or
sublimating all romantic or sexual feelings, because those are desires
that can lead to intimate interactions with another person, and he is
still in the habit of avoiding intimacy, because of his unfortunate
Dursley background. Look, when he loved someone (his parents), they went
away from (were killed) when he was too young to even remember, and from
then until Hogwarts, everyone he has interacted with has kept him at a
cold distance. Intimacy is first scary because of being unfamiliar, and
more scary because the unconscious remembers that the one time he tried
it, it was followed by disaster.

***

Echo said:
> As Dumbledore is so fond of Harry, and seems to know
> everything that goes on in the school, including Snape's
> picking on Harry, why doesn't he do something about it?

As someone has mentioned, JKR said in a chat that Dumbledore believes
that children (presumably including Harry) will learn from adversities
such as having cruel Snape and fraudulent Trelawney as teachers. I
personally think that the bad teachers are in the story because they
seem so familiar to children and former children who think (whether
accurately or not) of some of their teachers as terrifyingly cruel and
unfair and others as woefully ignorant of their own subject. Another
reason is that the wizarding world is different from the Muggle world,
in ways that are sometimes delightful and sometimes terrifying but
usually not very reasonable (like the money system of 29 Knuts to 1
Sickle, 17 Sickles to 1 Galleon; it would make so much more sense if it
were THIRTEEN Sickles to the Galleon) and it is not at all impossible
that one of the bad and unreasonable unMuggle features of the wizarding
world is that they think unfair cruel teachers, even unfair cruel
teachers who poison one of the students to test their antidotes, are
perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't put it past Snape to poison one of the
students, altho' I *think* he would have a supply of antidote right
there in his hand when he did it.

***

Magda asked:
> why did Karkaroff face a British tribunal in GoF when he
> was bargaining for his release and why was he in a British prison?

I have always assumed that Karkaroff was living (and presumably either
working or studying) in Britain at the time that Voldemort came into
power, that Karkaroff joined the DEs in Britain, that Karkaroff was
caught in the act and arrested in Britain. Certainly there are plenty of
Muggles living in countries other than that of their birth -- or he
could even have been born of immigrant parents in Britain and taking the
job at Durmstrang is a 'roots' thing.

Incidentally, one thing I have been wondering lately is whether
Karkaroff will try to come back to Hogwarts seeking protection from
Voldemort trying to kill him.

***

Ebony wrote:
> There is nothing symbiotic about the relationship between
> wizards and house-elves.  I agree with Amy Z.  From what
> we've seen in canon, the elves get the short end of the stick.

But we haven't seen everything. Perhaps someday we will learn that House
Elves have to breathe the effluvia of magic that radiates from wizards
and witches as they do spells. that the HEs need it as a source of
something like a vitamin or essential amino acid. That would still be
the short end of the stick (it would be more fair for them to live where
they chose and HIRE a wizard to come do spells around them) but perhaps
we will learn that HEs get something bigger and much more equal from
their wizarding families.

***

Seattle de Taelore wrote:
> I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
> was wondering about Wizard religion. (snip)
> Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
> has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
> yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
> example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
>  witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
>  religions?

One of my favorite things to try to figure out.

I feel CERTAIN that there are Catholic and Muslim and Jewish witches --
in every generation there are a number of Muggle-born witches and
wizards, some of whom would have been raised in religious families of
all the common religions, and I can't imagine that they would give up a
religion they believed in just because of going to school at Hogwarts.
The Patil twins, Parvati and Padma, were almost certainly raised in a
Hindu family (of which there are many in Britain) because they are named
after Hindu goddesses with a South Asian family name. I wish we saw
something about Parvati celebrating some Hindu holy day. I wish JKR had
mentioned some student with a Muslim name.

I fantasize that rather  than the main religion of old pureblood
wizarding families being a distinct wizarding religion, perhaps
descended from Druidism or NeoPlatonism, that in Britain it is the
Anglican religion. In my fic, I have some wizarding folk going to
regular Muggle church with Muggles. I further fantasize that Hogwarts
until recent years had an Anglican chapel and compulsory Sunday worship
services. That just seem so old-time English. Don't bug me about
Hogwarts actually being in Scotland.

***

Andrea ra said:
> Lupin explains that only Harry has true horrors in his
> past, namely facing Voldemort and having his parents
> murdered.  "The horrors in your past are enough to
>  make anyone pass out" (paraphrased from Lupin)

People have already pointed out that Ginny and Neville also react
strongly to the Dementors and also have horrors in their pasts. Amy Z
already quoted that Draco reacted strongly to the Dementors:
"That little git," [George] said calmly.  "He wasn't so cocky last night
when the Dementors were down our end of the train.  Came running into
our compartment, didn't he, Fred?"
"Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at Malfoy."
But has anyone yet suggested that Draco reacted strongly not because of
being a coward but because of having horrors in HIS past? He certainly
has a father capable of providing them, either as abused child or simply
as witness.

Altho' the Dementors waking the repressed memories of horrors in their
victim's minds doesn't sound like major depression to me. That they suck
out all happiness and all hope and their victims feel unhappy and
worthless and helpless and futile sounds like major depression, but
remembering the horrors sounds more like PTSD.

Magda wrote:
> Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class
> show > up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would
> he see a Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?

Or himself? ... Magda, what a thought-provoking question.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 21 04:44:56 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:44:56 -0000
Subject: Bonfirenight
In-Reply-To: <012b01c0ca17$136ddec0$402a243f@default>
Message-ID: <9br388+dhee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17300

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:

> I was wondering if there was a different bonfirenight in England. I
> faintly remember reading something in a book by Enid Blyton, about
> Guy Fawkes (sp?) and Nov. 5th. Would that be it?

Yes, by Bonfire Night, she means Guy Fawkes Day, November 5.

Guy (actually Guido) Fawkes was a Catholic who wanted to blow up 
the House of Commons because they were Protestants who had outlawed 
Catholicism so he filled the basement of the House of Commons 
with gunpowder, therefore it was called the Gunpowder Plot. However, 
he was arrested before he lit the fuse.  No one thinks it is a 
co-incidence that Dumbledore's Phoenix, a bird who regularly burns up, 
is named Fawkes.

Bonfire Night in UK is like I've heard Mischief Night in Detroit 
described, lots of arson as well as fireworks and bonfires, but the 
original purpose of the bonfires was to burn Guy Fawkes in effigy. 

('Effigy' means a model of the person, such as the stone figures 
lying on top of some medieval tombs, but these effigies are made of 
straw and cloth, which is more flammable than stone, and dressed in 
old clothes from garbage cans.)

This particular effigy is called 'the guy'. For days before the 5th, 
boys carry the guy with them and go around begging for money (which 
they supposedly will use to buy fireworks Bonfire Night) by saying 
'Penny for the guy?'. It is remarkable how many old English 
traditions involve going around from house to house begging for money 
or a drink of alcohol. In USA, we just have Halloween begging for 
candy (trick-or-treating).

I have never been in UK and don't know if they still sing their 
traditional begging song:

Please to remember
the fifth of November
Gunpowder treason and plot
I see no reason
why gunpowder treason
should ever be forgot.




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Sat Apr 21 04:46:17 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:46:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bonfirenight
References: <20010420153834.10754.qmail@keromail.com> <012b01c0ca17$136ddec0$402a243f@default>
Message-ID: <3AE11099.56BEF959@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17301

Yep, Guy Fawkes is the one.  I forget what the day is called (maybe some
British listmembers can enlighten us!) but they do bonfires that night. :)

Barbara :)

Rena wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> here's something that's been bugging me for some time. In SS, right
> in the beginning, the newscaster says that fireworks were seen all
> over England and that bonfirenight was not until next week.
> (Something to that effect anyway)
> 
> To me, bonfirenight is June 21 -- I'm neither British nor
> American -- yet the day of the attack on Harry's Parents is given as
> Halloween.
> 
> I was wondering if there was a different bonfirenight in England. I
> faintly remember reading something in a book by Enid Blyton, about
> Guy Fawkes (sp?) and Nov. 5th. Would that be it?
> 
> Please refresh my memory.
> 
> Rena
> 
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [Click Here!]
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
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-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From anguis_1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 05:20:03 2001
From: anguis_1 at yahoo.com (anguis_1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:20:03 -0000
Subject: To all lurkers and newbies ... you know who you are :)
In-Reply-To: <9bnf0o+f27v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9br5a3+9a22@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17302

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, and being the "always analytical" person that 
> I am, I was wondering why so many people lurk, rather than add their 
> questions or opinions to the list. 
I am a full time college student and volunteer and just reading 
messages that look interesting takes me way past my bedtime.  Anyway,  
by this time of night (er, morning) my thoughts become jumbled and 
illogical.  I do try to post if I have the time or if I feel 
particularily strongly about something.





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 21 07:14:04 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:14:04 +0100
Subject: Bonfire Night/Godparents (some comments)
References: <9br388+dhee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017e01c0ca32$bc80b120$503670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17303

BONFIRE NIGHT

Catlady described Bonfire Night, Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot

<snip wonderfully detailed description>

<<<This particular effigy is called 'the guy'. For days before the 5th, boys
carry the guy with them and go around begging for money (which they
supposedly will use to buy fireworks Bonfire Night) by saying 'Penny for the
guy?'.>>>

Although 'Penny for the guy' is much less common in the UK these days, I
wouldn't say it is exclusively boys who do this.  Also, it's not usual for
them to go door-to-door as in trick-or-treating; they will usually sit on
the pavement outside their house or some local shops, displaying an outmoded
Mutant Ninja Turtles mask atop Dad's nearly new suit, stuffed with Mum's
precious heirloom cushions.  Only when the flames are licking at the Guy
during the Bonfire Night party, do the parents realise, with horror, that
the kids have been through the cupboards again...

<<<It is remarkable how many old English  traditions involve going around
from house to house begging for money or a drink of alcohol. In USA, we just
have Halloween begging for candy (trick-or-treating).>>>

Hmmmm.  I can't imagine what you mean.  The only tradition I can think of is
Carol Singing at Christmas, when the singers may be collecting for charity.
Some may dole out hot toddies, but I usually just peer at them through the
letterbox and shout "Bah, Humbug!".  If you could care to expand on your
observation on OT Chatter (or to me, privately), I'm intrigued.

<<<I have never been in UK and don't know if they still sing their
traditional begging song:>>>

Unless I'm mistaken, that isn't a begging song; it's just a rhyme associated
with the Gunpowder Plot.

GODPARENTS

I know this is also a bit OT, but it clings to its on-topicality, because
Penny had asked about the meaning of godfather in relation to Sirius Black.

I agree with everything Catherine said about godparents, and, in the Church
of England, at least, it is a tradition for boys to have two godfathers and
one godmother and for girls to have two godmothers and one godfather (it's
not just your family, Catherine!).  Although the origins of godparenthood
are religious, it is often used simply as a means to honour some close
friends or siblings of the parents and they may then do little more than
give the child gifts on significant dates.  The religious aspect is, as
Catherine said, that the godparents are seen as religious or spiritual
guides for the child.  At the Christening (baptism), they are expected to
step forward and speak on the child's behalf.  I think many people just ask
their chosen godparents and don't go near a church.  I was baptised and I
have a very devoutly Christian godmother and two atheists (one late) as
godfathers, none of whom has ever offered me guidance.  However, a medium
once told me that I am possessed by my deceased godfather (who is also my
uncle), but I digress....

As to Penny's question, I think a godparent could be seen a proxy guardian,
but grandparents, aunts and uncles (The Dursleys - gaaaah!!!) would probably
be considered first, and there is no legal bond (unless specified).  To me a
godparent seems a bizarre thing to have in a world based in witchcraft, but
on second thoughts, JKR has not so much embraced Wiccan or Pagan beliefs, as
created a word of Magic intermingled with many comforting Muggle traditions,
such as the rather secular Christmas celebrations.

It's my view that JKR is portraying Sirius as an alternative guardian, not
someone the Potters chose to be a religious guide.  That said, I'd love to
know if James and Lily appointed another godfather and a godmother to Harry;
not everyone follows that three-godparents tradition, but they usually have
at least one of each sex.  I wonder who might be Harry's fairy godmother?
In spirit, at least, it has to be Molly Weasley.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Apr 21 07:50:06 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:50:06 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolves and Animagi
In-Reply-To: <20010420190447.29504.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCEILCDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17304

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magda Grantwich [mailto:mgrantwich at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Werewolves and Animagi

> Which raises an interesting question: how do four boys disappear
> every month for a few days with no one asking questions?  Or does
> this werewolf thing only happen at night?  I thought that at first
> but Lupin's reference to the potion helping him stay a mere wolf and
> sleeping through the danger period sounded like it might refer to
> entire 24-hour blocks of time.

It only happens during the night of the full moon, that is once per
month. They sneaked out of the castle at night to the Shrieking
shack, supposedly using the secret passage and hidden under
James' invisibility cloak. No one ever knew. Lupin must take the
wolfsbane potion over a period of time to keep his mind during
that one night, he still transforms into a wolf, but he is harmless.
The question why he didn't transform in the shack but only outside
when the moonlight hit him hasn't been answered satisfactorily IMO.
It seems to be kind of a plot hole.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From hallieu at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 09:34:32 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:34:32 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I lurk AND a question
Message-ID: <F170BkNyYcKUHbY6OIS0000289d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17305

Lea said
'But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night when I
was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it, but why is it 
people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys. Why not someone from 
Ministry of Magic?'
This is just my theory, but having witnessed Cornelius Fudge's inadequacies 
at Minister of Magic in books three and four, and assuming Fudge was MoM at 
the time of Lily and James' death, I think its entirely feasible to suggest 
that Dumbledore felt that the Ministry would probably send Harry to an 
orphanage, and the general assumption is that Harry is safe at the Dursleys 
thanks to 'blood magic', so obviously, Dumbledore would want him to be with 
relatives.  So, Hogwarts took over, presumably to prevent any Ministry 
blunders (and lets face it, beaurocrats have their fair share of blunders).
Hallie

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 10:12:11 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:12:11 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F53aCdhxJKocJq00010674@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9brmdr+tu6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17306

"Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

>I think you have to count death as a major theme, so 
(thank you, 
> Doreen!) I'm also looking at clocks and watches.

> Morag (old, grey and wrinkly - and that's just my socks)

Oh yes, please! I?m desperately waiting for your clocks and watches 
thing! 

BTW, I don?t  seem to remember a single "normal" clock or watch ever 
to come up in the books...

> >Lea, 
who?s wearing a pair of rather thick dark blue woollen socks 
at the moment, meaning that all she has in common with her socks is 
that she?s sometimes rather thick, too, but rarely dark blue, and 
certainly not woollen.





From hallieu at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 13:14:41 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:14:41 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
Message-ID: <F1323sllNY30kkZIhTr00001805@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17307

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Fidelius Charm prevented only
people who had negative motives towards the person the Fidelius Charm 
protects would be unable to locate them.
Okay, that made little sense, so if you can work out what I'm trying to say 
then you're amazing!
Hallie

>From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Protection
>Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:38:48 -0500
>
> > --- Morag Traynor <moragt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think Harry's whereabouts, when not at school, is concealed under
> > a Fidelius charm, so Voldemort could apparate in Harry's bedroom and
> > not find him.
>
>Then how did the Weasley boys find him, when they came to rescue him
>with the car? It seems to me that everyone seems to know that Harry
>stays with his awful Muggle relatives, down to Ernie Macmillan. Of
>course, you could know where he is but still not be able to find it, but
>still, how did Fred, George, and Ron find him if the Dursley house is
>hidden under the Fidelius charm?
>
>--Amanda
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 10:36:46 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:36:46 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <LAW2-F56KtdhQYZkxOj00011825@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17308

Luce wrote:
>In a message dated 4/20/01 6:53:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
>irbohlen at email.unc.edu writes:
>
> > Then I was confined to bed for a month with a broken leg, and
> >  _listened_ to all the HP tapes [US versions] and, when I got to
> >  GoF--Wow! I too was incredibly upset. The scene with Voldemort
> >  was suddenly very frightening ...Cedric's death a tragic irony...
> >  Harry's return via portkey and refusal to let go of Cedric started
> >  the tears.. . and the scene with Molly Weasley afterwards had me
> >  bawling like a baby! Having read it again since, the effect has
> >  stayed with me. I just don't know why hearing it read was so
> >  much more affecting.
>
>I was also much more affected by hearing it read.  Suddenly it hit me >just 
>how quickly Voldemort could kill, and he could take Harry or >Hermione or 
>Ron. If Voldemort decided to stop being the drama queen >that he is and go 
>on the attack could any of these children even react >in time to save 
>themselves?

I haven't heard HP on tape, but I must.  Reading these posts reminded me of 
the time I listened to "Persuasion" on tape and, for the first time, (having 
read the book countless times), really felt, as opposed to just realizing, 
how alone Anne was, and crying buckets at the end.  I think there's just 
something about sound that is emotionally involving - not to detract from 
Stephen Fry.  Thanks for reminding me of a good reason to get the tapes.
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 10:41:48 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <3AE0DD2A.A2BCD054@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010421104148.12881.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17309

>> I think we can assume things from the canon and one of those
>> things is that Draco is not a student knocking himself out for
high
>> academic honours.
> 
> Why is your assumption any more valid than Heidi's assumption that
> he might just as easily be a really bright kid academically?  As 
> best I can tell, there are arguments that cut both ways.  There's 
> more than one valid interpretation of most things IMO.
> 
> Penny

Very well.  What are the arguments that cut both ways?  Personally I
don't see anywhere in the books any sign that Draco values much
besides his family name, social status and playing Quidditch.  Where
is there even a hint that he is more than an average student?

Not trying to cause a fight here but genuinely wanting to know.

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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 10:53:01 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:53:01 -0000
Subject: Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <3AE0DD2A.A2BCD054@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9broqd+vckq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17310

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Magda Grantwich wrote:

<snip>
> 
> > I think we can assume things from the canon and one of those 
things is
> > that Draco is not a student knocking himself out for high 
academic
> > honours.
> 
> Why is your assumption any more valid than Heidi's assumption that 
he
> might just as easily be a really bright kid academically?  As best 
I can
> tell, there are arguments that cut both ways.  There's more than 
one
> valid interpretation of most things IMO.
> 
> Penny

Yes, but since really bright students are much rarer than average 
students, shouldn't the burdern of proof be on Heidi? I think that 
Magda's argument is valid in this case. I mean, we assume the 
ordinary unless there is evidence for the extroadinary, right? 
So, unless there is evidence to the contrary (which there isn't) it's 
*more* valid to assume that Draco is not very bright academically.

BTW, what about my recent argument (newbies alert -> to which nobody 
responded!) that Draco isn't particularly bright based on his not so 
witty witticisms?

Naama





From hallieu at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 10:53:32 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:53:32 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bonfirenight
Message-ID: <F1380sca0ZkfzDskqC50000342c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17311

Nov. 5th is bonfire night - it commemorates the day that Guy Fawkes 
attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and rid England of King James 
I (I think - and that looks bad in itself, as I'm a British historina type 
person).  Incidentally, I've always thought that was how Fawkes the phoenix 
got his/her name - because he/she bursts into flame every so often.
Hallie


>From: "Rena" <fmu30c at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bonfirenight
>Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:11:04 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>here's something that's been bugging me for some time. In SS, right
>in the beginning, the newscaster says that fireworks were seen all
>over England and that bonfirenight was not until next week.
>(Something to that effect anyway)
>
>To me, bonfirenight is June 21 -- I'm neither British nor
>American -- yet the day of the attack on Harry's Parents is given as
>Halloween.
>
>I was wondering if there was a different bonfirenight in England. I
>faintly remember reading something in a book by Enid Blyton, about
>Guy Fawkes (sp?) and Nov. 5th. Would that be it?
>
>Please refresh my memory.
>
>Rena
>

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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 11:00:32 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:00:32 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <3AE0701F.984B9C96@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9brp8g+726r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17312

Amanda has brought up the Snape issue again, so I hope it?s ok that I 
unite her two recent posts on this thread.

>>I think, if there's no deepening or changing of relationship with 
Snape, that it will be as much Snape's fault as anyone's. Snape seems 
to me to be a man on emotional autopilot. I think this "autopilot" 
mode is a form of self-defense, in that Snape's  been through some 
major-league trauma and he simply doesn't bring all of himself to bear 
in day-to-day life anymore. He can get by just fine, doing his job and 
living at Hogwarts, using the shallow emptinesses of the rules and 
professional courtesies and etiquettes and that sort of thing. None of 
that demands introspection, self-examination, intimacy,  or effort. 
It's a "coasting" mode.
The times we have seen Snape truly emotional have all been when the 
past was invoked. His emotional involvement ended there. He's 
emotional about Harry because he touches on the past.
 So I wonder how the new information Snape's been handed--that Sirius 
is in fact innocent, as is Lupin, that James was right about Sirius, 
that Harry has met and eluded Voldemort again--is going to affect his 
whole manner of being, let alone his teaching or how he interacts with 
Harry. All of this touches on the past, all of it must affect his 
viewpoint and actions, all of it must be assimilated--and all of it 
had been nicely sublimated and must be exhumed. Hmmm.<<


I agree with the first bit. We?ve discussed this on the "authority" 
thread before. But while imposing his authority on the students seems 
to agree with Snape?s character, I don?t think observing professional 
courtesies and etiquette does - otherwise we wouldn?t have seen him 
congratulating Prof. McGonagall on Gryffindor winning the house cup 
"with a horribly forced smile" at the end of HPPS. 

I disagree with the second bit, though. The great "break" in 
Snape?s view of his own past and especially regarding his old 
enemies came at the end of PoA, not at the end of GoF, so we already 
*know* how Snape reacted to it: *not at all*.

When I had finished PoA, I somehow thought: How will Harry ever be 
able to take Snape seriously again, as a teacher? How will they ever 
find back to an everyday mode of getting along with each other on a 
student-teacher-basis?

I mean how would you interact with your teacher after you?ve seen him 
go positively mad so you had to knock him out?

But all JKR says about it (at the start of GoF) is that Snape had 
attained new levels of vindictiveness over the summer, and right as 
she is, is that a realistic reaction?

Amanda would of course suggest that?s just the way he handles these 
experiences - ignore them.

-----------
Amamnda on teaching qualities again:

> But I think Snape, in his own mind, does not consider himself first 
and foremost a teacher. It's what he's doing, he does it well (I 
think), but it's not how he identifies himself.<

I agree so far, that?s what I meant when I said he?s *not* a teacher 
by character.

>It does not bind his behavior outside the walls of his classroom. He 
allows himself liberties that someone whose life and being is teaching 
would never consider, including a cruel response to someone who is 
your student. I think whatever his administrative position is at 
Hogwarts--and I think he must hold one, over and in addition to his 
teaching post--is separate in his mind from his teaching duties. 
Because he *does* seem to carry the administrative role "with him" 
fairly regularly.<

I disagree again. Snape?s behaviour does not change one jot whether 
he?s in the classroom or outside it, as long as he is at Hogwarts and 
there are students around (the shrieking shack was different). The "I 
see no difference" remark could have been made in the classroom 
(remember him reading out the Rita Skeeter article in class) as well 
as outside it (remember him warning Lupin about Neville?s stupidity in 
the staff room). He does *not* separate his teaching duties from his 
other Hogwarts duties (whatever they may be). Instead, his inability 
to seperate them is one of the reason most students hate him so much. 
I remember after the Neville-staff room-comment, they agree that it?s 
mean enough of him to bully Neville in his own classes, so it?s 
especially bad if he does it in front of other teachers (and it is, I 
must say).

So Snape?s problem really is (apart from all the many others we don?t 
know about yet) that as much as he tries not to be influenced by and 
show his own emotions, he doesn?t even manage to do his teaching job 
rather unemotionally and mechanically.

So if Amanda is entirely right with her "emotional autopilot" 
statement (which was a brilliant metaphor, I think) we would see Snape 
in class as a second Prof. Binns. Which he is not, obviously. 




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 11:03:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <9broqd+vckq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421110354.13789.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17313

> BTW, what about my recent argument (newbies alert -> to which
> nobody responded!) that Draco isn't particularly bright based on 
> his not so witty witticisms?
> 
> Naama
> 

Definitely!  And he has no sense of when to knock it off; repetition
deadens the effect of an insult, not sharpens it.  

It's Draco's pure enjoyment of giving pain that makes him a prime DE
recruitment target IMO.  (Until he finds out he'd just be one of many
and wouldn't enjoy superior status at all.)

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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 11:12:30 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:12:30 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
Message-ID: <9brpuu+ft8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17314

I?ve raised this before on the "Draco and Snape" thread since it?s 
been bothering me for a while: The relationship between Snape and 
Lucius Malfoy.

 We know *suspiciously* little about that so far. I don?t think 
 there?s a single scene in any of the books where Snape and Malfoy 
sen. actually meet face to face and talk to each other.

I just came across this in GoF last night:

In the "parting of the ways" chapter, Harry tells Fudge the names of 
the DE who were present at Voldemort?s rebirth to make him believe it 
really happened, and when he names Lucius Malfoy,

"Snape made a sudden movement. But as Harry looked at him, his eyes 
flew back to Fudge." (paraphrase).

That?s another fantastic hint giving wings to our thoughts, isn?t it?
What are your theories?

Was Snape surprised that Lucius Malfoy was present there?
Does Lucius know Snape was Dumbledore?s spy? Does he trust him at all? 
Does he see Snape as a secret ally or as an enemy? Is he happy with 
Draco being "tutored" by Snape in Slytherin or does he mind?





From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 11:27:14 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:27:14 -0000
Subject: Bonfirenight
In-Reply-To: <F1380sca0ZkfzDskqC50000342c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9brqqi+qr0m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17315

 "Hallie Usmar" <hallieu at h...> wrote:
> Nov. 5th is bonfire night - it commemorates the day that Guy Fawkes 
> attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and rid England of 
King James   Incidentally, I've always thought that was how Fawkes the 
phoenix  got his/her name - because he/she bursts into flame every so 
often.
> Hallie

I?ve been wondering about it, too. I thought that the Order of the 
Phoenix was  a sort of conspiratory secret society (Dumbledore?s "old 
crowd"), because so was the group around Guy Fawkes. But it doesn?t 
fit very well really since Guy Fawkes & friends were rather fanatic, 
and I just hope the OoP will not start their operations by blowing up 
the Ministry of Magic...




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 11:33:12 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9brp8g+726r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421113312.6719.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17316

> So Snapes problem really is (apart from all the many others we
> dont know about yet) that as much as he tries not to be influenced

> by and show his own emotions, he doesnt even manage to do his 
> teaching job rather unemotionally and mechanically.


I don't think Snape knows anymore what his emotions are.  Of all the
adults in the book (and I'm including Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia),
Snape is the most child-like.  Not to be confused with childish,
although he is that occasionally too.  

His feelings are right under the surface, just like lava under the
weakening rock of a volcano's rim, and when they surge, everybody
better be out of range to avoid flying projectiles.  His bullying of
the students has always struck me as the restrained and sulky actions
of a man who knows he's not allowed to do anything REALLY bad; much
like Draco's taunts of Harry are meant to compensate for the fact
that Draco really can't do much more than annoy Harry.  A sign of
powerlessness, actually, rather than power.  

LIke a child, his likes and dislikes assume a huge significance in
his own eyes and he is totally incapable of any perspective on the
matter.  Granted that death by werewolf is probably one of the
nastier ways to check out, it was twenty years ago so give it up
already.  

Snape's concept of authority is also very child-like: do this or
you'll be punished; don't do that or you'll be expelled.  The
rolled-up newspaper theory of rewards and punishments is what makes
sense to him.  He doesn't believe that you can maintain order by
force of example (He thinks Dumbledore lets Harry get away with
everything)
or that you can appeal to a child's conscience (although he and Lupin
say pretty much the same thing in PoA after Harry gets caught being
off the grounds, he ensures that his warning has no effect by
taunting Harry and getting his back up).

Even the "swooping around like an overgrown bat" (as Quirrell put it)
is more child-like than grown-up.  He's trying to make an effect; he
thinks he does.  But Dumbledore would be an impressive figure in
London or in the MoM or wherever because of his stature.  Can anyone
even imagine Snape in a crowd of people outside of Hogwarts?  Does he
ever go anywhere there are large numbers of adults around?  He didn't
go to the Quidditch World Cup.  Does he go down to Hogsmeade
occasionally to kick back a Flaming Dragon's Blood (hold the cherry)
at the Three Broomsticks?  Does he flirt with Rosmerta?  (As if!)
Would she recognize it if he did?  Personally I don't think that
Snape has discovered girls yet; his blasting the rosebushes
activities during the Yule dance is so wonderfully in character as is
his touching belief that taking points away will deter them from
finding other bushes.

And what kind of a teacher would you have if you put a child in
charge of a class?  One that would delight in his ability to torment
people he didn't like, knowing they couldn't respond, but who would
refretfully acknowledge that there were boundaries he couldn't pass;
one who would take pleasure in other kids' also tormenting those he
didn't like and who would show his favour to those kids without any
sense that favourtism is inappropriate.

In short you would get Snape, the biggest kid at Hogwarts.



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From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 12:33:09 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:33:09 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Lucius Malfoy
References: <9brpuu+ft8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009501c0ca5f$3a63d960$a82b07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17317

Lea wrote (among other respectfully snipped comments)
>Was Snape surprised that Lucius Malfoy was present there?
>Does Lucius know Snape was Dumbledores spy? Does he trust him at all?
>Does he see Snape as a secret ally or as an enemy? Is he happy with
>Draco being "tutored" by Snape in Slytherin or does he mind?

The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume that the "one who
has left us forever" comment of Voldemort wasn't directed at the absent
Snape. Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - which
means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything that
happened to Harry.

I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him, how can Malfoy not know?

My "theorie" (which is based on opinion and my imagination, since there are
little facts given) is that Lucius doesn't know that Severus spied fo
Dumbledore. I think Lucius was a "friend" (yeah, great friend) of Severus
back in Hogwarts and the most imprtant reason why he joined the
death-eaters. I don't see Snape as the violent kill-and-toture-them-all
person most DE are. I guess he sympathisized with some of the DE principles
and because he was in the clique and the ideas got promoted he joined up,
hoping that he'd find equally thinking minds. When he found out that it was
all about killing and torturing and hadn't really to do with principles he
left the DE and started to spy for Dumbledore (with all the rule-enforcement
he probably he has a huge sense for what's right and what's wrong and wants
to see people punished).

I don't think he was really surprised to see Malfoy there. We could assume -
of course - that he was so blinded by this friendship (we don't even know
truly exists) that he thought Lucius had given up on his radical ideology.
But I think he was more concerned that his cover had been blown somehow, by
a comment or anything. It just would have been a natural reaction when
hearing that someone who knows that you work at Hogwarts and for Dumbledore
now is near your former master.

As for what Lucius thinks about Snape... He probably thinks he has gone
soft. He is contented with Snape being as head of Slytherin at Hogwarts,
teaching Draco, but surely doesn't think it's a great thing. Ambition is the
keyword, once again. And being at Hogwarts with *Dumbledore* as headmaster
isn't a great achievement in Malfoy*s eyes. Maybe he thinks Snape is biding
his time and therefore keeps away from him because he doesn't want to
endanger the postition and thinks Severus might be useful someday, maybe he
just doesn't care what happened to him and thinks his life is rather
pathetic.

Generally I don't think he sees Severus as an enemy - obviously it isn't
common knowledge that he tried to keep Voldemort from rising to power in PS.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye.

~ Antoine de Saint-Exupry


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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 12:39:54 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:39:54 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <20010421113312.6719.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9brv2q+go0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17318

I just love how everytime someone mentiones Snape on this board, you 
can rely on a handful of certain people immediately to come up with 
either a wholehearted defence or a wholehearted condamnation!

Here?s another condamnation by Magda:
 
> I don't think Snape knows anymore what his emotions are.  Of all the
> adults in the book (and I'm including Uncle Vernon and Aunt 
Petunia), Snape is the most child-like.  Not to be confused with 
childish, although he is that occasionally too.  
> His feelings are right under the surface, just like lava under the
> weakening rock of a volcano's rim, and when they surge, everybody
> better be out of range to avoid flying projectiles. 

That?s true regarding his behaviour in the shrieking shack and 
afterwards. But emotional eruptions are only part of how he deals with 
difficult situations. 

He doesn?t strike me as a "loud" person at all - on the contrary, 
Snape getting really dangerous means Snape going almost silent. His 
voice is reduced to whispering, if he finds it necessary to speak at 
all - like curling his lip at Lockhart at the duelling club and then 
knocking him out - clean and quick and never a word too much.

He?s a modell of self-control even in extraordinary circumstances - 
that?s as long as he?s the one in control of the situation.

"Give me a reason", he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I 
swear I will."

That?s Snape at his best, Snape at the height of his power, and I find 
nothing childish or uncontrolled in that (except Severus couldn?t 
resist putting as much pathos into that phrase as he could).

He gets a bit loud when he feels things are getting out of hand, 
though, like in the shrieking shack in PoA or with Moody in "the egg 
and the eye" in GoF. But that?s hardly surprising.

> LIke a child, his likes and dislikes assume a huge significance in
> his own eyes and he is totally incapable of any perspective on the
> matter.

Come on Magda, that?s *human*.

 >>Even the "swooping around like an overgrown bat" (as Quirrell put 
it) is more child-like than grown-up.  He's trying to make an effect; 
he thinks he does.<<

I heartily disagree. Snape likes to put on a bit of effect when it 
comes to assuring his authority over the students - like his sudden, 
startling appearance outside the castle at the beginning of CoS. Makes 
me jump everytime I read it.

But as soon as there is someone more important around (like Dumbledore 
or Fudge), Snape very readily steps back into the shadows and lets the 
others do the talking, until it is time for him to come up with 
something important again. Take a look at the "parting of the ways" 
chapter in GoF. Snape is present throughout, but you don?t even 
realise it until he steps out of the back row to show Fudge the Dark 
Mark (mark that *this* is what really puts an end to the discussion 
Fudge has maintained up to that point).

>>Can anyone  even imagine Snape in a crowd of people outside of 
Hogwarts?  Does he ever go anywhere there are large numbers of adults 
around?  He didn't go to the Quidditch World Cup.  Does he go down to 
Hogsmeade occasionally to kick back a Flaming Dragon's Blood (hold the 
cherry) at the Three Broomsticks?<<

There may be a hundred reasons why he doesn?t (or why we don?t know 
whether he does, to be exact). Maybe Hogwarts is a kind of exile for 
him, a hiding place from angry DEs. Maybe he just isn?t interested in 
Quidditch, or he?s a prohibitionis. All I?m sure of is that he?s not 
lacking social contacts because he fears he won?t be noticed properly, 
but because of other reasons. Bad experiences, I?d say. The same goes 
for the girls question. Blasting rose-bushes out of his way and 
reading out Rita Skeeter articles in class could  be a sign he doesn?t 
really know anything about it, but it could just as well mean he?s had 
enough of it to last him a lifetime. That?s even more probable, IMO.

> And what kind of a teacher would you have if you put a child in
> charge of a class?  One that would delight in his ability to torment
> people he didn't like, knowing they couldn't respond, but who would
> refretfully acknowledge that there were boundaries he couldn't pass;
> one who would take pleasure in other kids' also tormenting those he
> didn't like and who would show his favour to those kids without any
> sense that favourtism is inappropriate.
> 
> In short you would get Snape, the biggest kid at Hogwarts.>

This is about teaching qualities again so I won?t comment on it.

> His bullying of the students has always struck me as the restrained 
and sulky actions of a man who knows he's not allowed to do anything 
REALLY bad; A sign of  powerlessness, actually, rather than power. >

Can?t resist here, though.
Maybe Snape is not allowed to do something really bad, but I?m sure as 
well he doesn?t want to.
There must of course be a reason for his meanness, and I think we can 
agree that part of it is hiding his inner weaknesses, fears, lack of 
self-confidence, whatever.

But Magda?s comment seems to assume generally that Snape is at heart 
an *evil* person. I on the contrary am convinced that he is at heart a 
*good* person, only it?s buried so deep somewhere under the events and 
experiences in his past that he  really will have trouble digging it 
up again.

 I?d even go as far as saying the only person we can be *sure* about 
not to go over to the dark side (apart from Harry, maybe) is Snape.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat Apr 21 12:53:59 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:53:59 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <009501c0ca5f$3a63d960$a82b07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9brvt7+b5uj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17319


 "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote: a good theory on the 
Snape-Malfoy-relationship, so thanks for your thoughts. 

I?ll only comment on a few aspects for now.

> The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume that the 
"one who
> has left us forever" comment of Voldemort wasn't directed at the 
absent
> Snape. 

At who else?

>Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - 
which
> means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything 
that
> happened to Harry.

Ah, if he was, I?ll immediately renounce everything I?ve ever said in 
defence of him. The very idea he was there gives me the shivers!!! 
I?ve never even considered the possibility. Has anyone else?

> I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him, how can Malfoy 
not know?

Right.

> My "theorie" (which is based on opinion and my imagination, since 
there are
> little facts given) is that Lucius doesn't know that Severus spied 
for
> Dumbledore. 

That doesn?t quite correspond with the question above, does it?
 
> But I think he was more concerned that his cover had been blown 
somehow, by
> a comment or anything. It just would have been a natural reaction 
when
> hearing that someone who knows that you work at Hogwarts and for 
Dumbledore
> now is near your former master.

Which means Snape was surprised Malfoy sided with Voldemort again. I 
can hardly see the logic of that, after Malfoy (though indirectly) 
setting the Basilisk free in CoS and thereby declaring himself a 
supporter of Slytherin?s cause (if not Voldemort?s).

> As for what Lucius thinks about Snape... He probably thinks he has 
gone soft. 
Ambition is the
> keyword, once again. And being at Hogwarts with *Dumbledore* as 
headmaster
> isn't a great achievement in Malfoy*s eyes. Maybe he thinks Snape is 
biding
> his time and therefore keeps away from him because he doesn't want 
to
> endanger the postition and thinks Severus might be useful someday, 
maybe he
> just doesn't care what happened to him and thinks his life is rather
> pathetic.

That does make sense, though. I see it all ends up at the question 
whether Snape?s double role was generally known and whether he?ll be 
able to fool the DE again into believing he never truly left their 
side (if that?s what he is up to - mind you, it may be something 
totally different). Hmm.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Apr 21 13:15:03 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:15:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DCB@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17320

Hi! I am at disney world this weekend and do *not* want to answer this on my
Blackberry because thumb-typing is just too complicated for this.
So wait until monday...
--------------------------
Sent from heidi tandy' s BlackBerry Wireless Handheld 
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent
mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat Apr 21 06:41:48 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student

Real-To:  Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>

>> I think we can assume things from the canon and one of those
>> things is that Draco is not a student knocking himself out for
high
>> academic honours.
> 
> Why is your assumption any more valid than Heidi's assumption that
> he might just as easily be a really bright kid academically?  As 
> best I can tell, there are arguments that cut both ways.  There's 
> more than one valid interpretation of most things IMO.
> 
> Penny

Very well.  What are the arguments that cut both ways?  Personally I
don't see anywhere in the books any sign that Draco values much
besides his family name, social status and playing Quidditch.  Where
is there even a hint that he is more than an average student?

Not trying to cause a fight here but genuinely wanting to know.

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 13:36:55 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:36:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <9brv2q+go0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421133655.11351.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17321

--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> I just love how everytime someone mentiones Snape on this board,
> you can rely on a handful of certain people immediately to come up 
> with either a wholehearted defence or a wholehearted condamnation!
> 
> Heres another condamnation by Magda:

Good Lord, you don't think that was a condemnation, do you?!?!  Far
from it.  Snape is my favourite character (after Dumbledore).  He has
so much depth and potential for growth.

I think you are confusing "child-like" with "childish" with the
latter's overtones of petulance and immaturity.  Snape is not
childish but he is child-like as I listed in my points and won't
repeat here.

But I did come up with another example (just as I hit the send
button; always the way): in PoA when Snape and Fudge return to the
hospital wing after discovering that Sirius has gone.  Snape is in a
rage and knows (just KNOWS) who's at the bottom of the disappearance:
"OUT WITH IT POTTER! WHAT DID YOU DO?"  He knows that Harry had
something to do with it.

Contrast this with Fudge who reacts like an adult: how could he? 
he's been here in bed?  Not logical that Harry could have had
anything to do with it.

But Snape knows better.  It's the direct-line logic of a child and
it's a wonderful scene.




> But Magdas comment seems to assume generally that Snape is at
> heart an *evil* person. 

No, I don't.  He's still working out the whole good/evil thing.  But
by the end of GoF he is starting to grow up.

 
>  Id even go as far as saying the only person we can be *sure*
> about not to go over to the dark side (apart from Harry, maybe) is 
> Snape.

And Hagrid.

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 13:43:36 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:43:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <9brpuu+ft8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421134336.20620.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17322

> In the "parting of the ways" chapter, Harry tells Fudge the names
> of the DE who were present at Voldemorts rebirth to make him 
> believe it really happened, and when he names Lucius Malfoy,
> 
> "Snape made a sudden movement. But as Harry looked at him, his eyes
> flew back to Fudge." (paraphrase).
> 
> Thats another fantastic hint giving wings to our thoughts, isnt
> it?  What are your theories?

When I read that part, I was reminded of the scene in SS/PS when
Harry first sees Snape looking at him and feels his scar hurt.  It's
a red herring because of course it's actually Quirrell/Lord V. beside
Snape who makes his scar hurt.

I think this is another red herring moment.  Snape is not reacting to
Lucius Malfoy's name but rather to something else.  Perhaps an urge
to cut Harry off before he says too much in front of Fudge who's
being difficult about accepting the reality of Lord V's return.

I think we will find out that there isn't anything between Lucius and
Snape but that Harry will continue to have his doubts about Snape
based on this experience and his own mistrust of both men.

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From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 13:44:29 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:44:29 -0000
Subject: Bonfire Night/Godparents (some comments)
In-Reply-To: <017e01c0ca32$bc80b120$503670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bs2rt+f3fq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17323

 > Although the origins of godparenthood are religious, it is often 
used simply as a means to honour some close friends or siblings of the 
parents and they may then do little more than give the child gifts on 
significant dates.  The religious aspect is, as Catherine said, that 
the godparents are seen as religious or spiritual guides for the 
child.  At the Christening (baptism), they are expected to step 
forward and speak on the child's behalf.  I think many people just ask 
their chosen godparents and don't go near a church.  I was baptised 
and I have a very devoutly Christian godmother and two atheists (one 
late) as godfathers, none of whom has ever offered me guidance.  
However, a medium once told me that I am possessed by my deceased 
godfather (who is also my uncle), but I digress.... As to Penny's 
question, I think a godparent could be seen a proxy guardian, but 
grandparents, aunts and uncles (The Dursleys - gaaaah!!!) would 
probably be considered first, and there is no legal bond (unless 
specified).  To me a godparent seems a bizarre thing to have in a 
world based in witchcraft, but on second thoughts, JKR has not so much 
embraced Wiccan or Pagan beliefs, as created a word of Magic 
intermingled with many comforting Muggle traditions, such as the 
rather secular Christmas celebrations. It's my view that JKR is 
portraying Sirius as an alternative guardian, not someone the Potters 
chose to be a religious guide.> 
> Neil>

Hi Neil!

I had to respond to this even though it is quite OT, but I will 
connect it to Harry Potter so...

The question of religion in HP is interesting to me, and I know I 
(among others) brought it up a while ago, but I stand by my belief 
that if the wizarding world were to be assigned a religion, it would 
most definitely be a Christian one.  Why do I insist on this?

Well, I am Jewish, and in Judaism there is no Christmas and absolutely 
no Godparents.  Whether either of these things are secular or not (and 
I do love Christmas decorations and go a little nuts decorating my 
classroom for the holidays), they are still religious based.  My 
boyfriend is not Jewish and has mentioned having godparents for our 
baby (if we ever have one) and that makes me very uncomfortable.  In 
fact, religious Jews do not celebrate Halloween either.   Since I was 
not raised in a religious home, I was lucky enough to be able to 
participate in Halloween (my very favorite holiday - you should see my 
classroom in October), but many Jewish people do not.

My point is, I think people are taking for granted that we live in a 
very Christian world, and Harry Potter celebrates Christian holidays 
and observes Christian traditions.  BTW, this does NOT bother me in 
the least, and I ABSOLUTELY am not criticizing ANY religion 
whatsoever.  I do not want to offend anyone (and would feel very bad 
if I did).  I just wanted to add my two knuts in here with a slightly 
different perspective.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who, if she was a 14 year old witch at 
Hogwarts, would still date H




From rhysenn at singnet.com.sg  Sat Apr 21 13:46:35 2001
From: rhysenn at singnet.com.sg (Rhysenn)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:46:35 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DCB@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20010421212434.00ad4b30@singnet.com.sg>

No: HPFGUIDX 17324


heidi wrote
>Hi! I am at disney world this weekend and do *not* want to answer this on my
>Blackberry because thumb-typing is just too complicated for this.
>So wait until monday...

<delurking> Shall toss in my 2 knuts worth in the meantime, since Heidi has 
directed me over to this thread.


>Very well.  What are the arguments that cut both ways?  Personally I
>don't see anywhere in the books any sign that Draco values much
>besides his family name, social status and playing Quidditch.  Where
>is there even a hint that he is more than an average student?

My Draco-adulation aside, I've always had the distinct impression that 
Draco is a bright kid, at least a good deal above average. Now that I'm 
forced to analyse why I think so, these are the 4 main points that came up.

1) Lucius' preoccupation with Draco's grades - saying that he was appalled 
that Hermione had beaten Draco in every paper (paraphrased, don't have my 
copy of CoS with me). It's the classic sort of parental yardstick, where 
the subject of school grades keep being rehashed as a measure of a child's 
success. And note that he *only* mentions Hermione (who topped the level) - 
not Harry or Ron or anyone else - which may mean that Herm must be one of 
the very few people ranking above Draco in grades.

2) His general witty sarcasm belies an intelligent, quick-thinking mind. 
Snarky snipes like "So tell me, Potter, is Weasley's mother really so porky 
in real life, or is it just the photo?" and "if brains were gold, 
Longbottom, you'd be poorer than Weasley, and that's saying something" all 
have a cutting-edge sharp wit to them, and only a bright kid would be able 
to come up with retorts like that. (in this point, I'm just proving that he 
has intellectual aptitude, not necessarily corresponding secular brilliance 
- as we know, these two do not always come hand in hand at all. Gifted kids 
often don't excel in the traditional academic sense).

3) Draco sure knows quite a few curses off-the-cuff (as demonstrated by the 
duelling lesson). Additionally, I think it suspends belief that Lucius has 
made sure he is adequately prepared before he went off to Hogwarts, and 
basically I just think that Draco knows his stuff, to say the least. He 
starts on a higher footing than Harry and Hermione, since he had magical 
background - okay, so Herm's studiousness makes up for her lack of 
background, but that doesn't change the fact that Draco's headstart will 
likely mean he is in the top quarter percentile of his class, at least.

4) His "popularity" in Slytherin - Draco appears one of the most popular 
boys in Slytherin, able to command the respect and attention of his peers. 
Apart from the fact that he's quick-tongued and witty and Quidditch seeker 
and his good looks <g>, I think that he must at least be good in his work. 
Also, Ron doesn't mention Malfoy in the "oh how I wish they failed and got 
retained" remark in relation to Crabbe and Goyle, so that means Draco was, 
to say the least, not just a mediocre student.


IMO, evidence strongly suggests Draco was a good student, if not among the 
cream of the crop. But that's just my own take on the matter, and I might 
add a disclaimer that I am *intensely* biased toward Draco Malfoy. Does 
anyone who *doesn't* think so have any _canon_ evidence that suggests 
otherwise?


Rhysenn





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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 21 14:18:37 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:18:37 -0700
Subject: Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape
Message-ID: <3AE196BC.CF2517E8@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17325

Monika wrote:
> Lupin must take the wolfsbane potion over a period of time
> to keep his mind during that one night, he still transforms
> into a wolf, but he is harmless.

I can't figure out from canon how often (during the 'the week, preceding
the
full moon') Lupin has to take the Wolfsbane Potion. I don't understand
why it is named Wolfsbane Potion -- if it is made out of Wolfsbane, why
isn't it poisonous to werewolves, and if it is not made out of
Wolfsbane, why isn't named Wolfsblessing Potion instead, being as how it
HELPS the poor werewolves. I further don't understand why Lupin took
sick leave the day before his transformation but apparently  not the day
after, considering that he is exhausted and worn out the day after...

Hallie wrote:
> assuming Fudge was MoM at the time of Lily and James' death,

While I agree with you that MoM was pretty inadequate during the
Voldemort years, but (as listees pointed out to me when I had forgotten
it), Fudge said in the Three Broomsticks scene in PoA: " I was Junior
Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes at the time, and I
was one of the first on the scene after Black murdered all those
people."

Magda wrote:
> Personally I don't see anywhere in the books any sign that
> Draco values much besides his family name, social status
> and playing Quidditch.  Where is there even a hint that he
> is more than an average student?

In SS, in the first Potions lesson, Snape  "was just telling everyone to
look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs" -- there has
been much argument on this list that Snape doesn't actually favor Draco
(altho' the sentence before one I just quoted says: "criticizing almost
everyone except Malfoy, whom he seemed to like") but only uses Draco as
a way to irritate Harry.  But I believe that Snape loves his Potions too
much to tell the other students to take a bad example as a good example
just to irritate Harry nor even to curry favor with Lucius. I grant that
that is the merest hint...

Meanwhile, the quote that always comes up on this topic is Lucius to
Draco at the beginning of CoS: "I would have thought you'd be ashamed
that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," -- if Hermione
is the ONLY person who beat Draco in exams, he must be brighter than
suggested by his 'not very witty witticisms'  (yay, Naama!) and the
general idiocy of praising the Dark Lord's comeback out in public on the
Hogwarts Express

Hey, RHYSENN, you got in before me with the above!.

Lea MacLeod wrote:
> The great "break" in Snapes view of his own past and
> especially regarding his old enemies came at the end of
> PoA, not at the end of GoF, so we already *know* how
> Snape reacted to it: *not at all*.

Snape was unconscious during most of the great revelations in the
Shrieking Shack: he never saw Scabbers turn into Pettigrew and Pettigrew
escaped before Snape came to. Snape, altho' loathsome, was probably
sincere when he told Fudge: "Black had bewitched them, I saw it
immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behavior. They seemed
to think there was a possibility he was innocent. They weren't
responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their interference
might have permitted Black to escape.... They obviously thought they
were going to catch Black single-handed". At the end of PoA, Snape still
believes that Sirius was the traitor and mass murderer and that Lupin
was his ally. When does Snape find out different?

Magda wrote:
> Personally I don't think that Snape has discovered girls yet;
> his blasting the rosebushes activities during the Yule dance
> is so wonderfully in character as is his touching  belief that
> taking points away will deter them from finding other bushes.

Another possible interpretation is that he was blasting the rose bushes
just because they were there when he *wanted* to blast Karkaroff, and
that he took points off the rose-bush students simply out of spite,
rather than with any expectation of changing their behavior.

Altho', without being able to quote specific text from canon, it has
always been So Easy for me to read Snape as a person who is deeply in
denial about sexuality, which I reflexively assumed was the result of
being both gay and homophobic. In which case, it makes much sense that
he hasn't discovered girls yet, and he is unconsciously trying very hard
to avoid discovering boys.

Dinah wrote:
> The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume
> that the "one who has left us forever" comment of Voldemort
> wasn't directed at the absent Snape. Which raises the problem
> that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - which means he would
> have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything that
> happened to Harry.

I am confused. Is there any reason to think that Snape was at the DE
meeting? Wouldn't his absence from the Triwizard audience have been
noticed? Even if Snape wasn't "the one who has left us forever" or the
coward or the loyal servant at Hogwarts, there were other spaces of
absent Death Eaters in the circle.

>  I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him,
> how can Malfoy not know?

If Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him only from the reports that
Crouch Jr has presumably been sending him from Hogwarts, then Lucius
wouldn't' know until V or Pettigrew told him. V and Pettigrew might not
tell Lucius everything they know. If V knew that S had betrayed him
because once he is re-embodied the Dark Mark tells him all about the
person it marks, then probably even Pettigrew doesn't know.

> My "theorie" (which is based on opinion and my
> imagination, since there are little facts given) is that
> Lucius doesn't know that Severus spied for Dumbledore.

I find this possibility better for dramatic plots, but it conflicts with
the theory that Snape has to hide out at Hogwarts (and not even go to
Hogsmeade) for protection against vengeful DEs.

> I think Lucius was a "friend" (yeah, great friend) of Severus
> back in Hogwarts and the most important reason why he joined
>the death-eaters.

I agree, except I think that Lucius left Hogwarts at least slightly
before Severus's time there, so the 'friendship' began when Severus left
school and joined the adult world.

> I don't see Snape as the violent kill-and-torture-them-all
> all about killing and torturing and hadn't really to do with
> principles he left the DEs and started to spy for Dumbledore

I agree.

> We could assume - of course - that he was so blinded
> by this friendship (we don't even know truly exists) that
> he thought Lucius had given up on his radical ideology.

In SS, Ron tells Harry that Lucius disowned V immediately that he was
out of power, that Lucius claimed he had been bewitched by V, and that
Arthur doesn't believe that claim. Apparently Fudge does believe it, and
I like to believe that Severus is deluded into believing it by his own
wishful thinking.

Lea wrote:
>>assume that the "one who  has left us forever" comment
>>of Voldemort wasn't directed at the absent Snape.
> At who else?

Some people have argued that it was Karkaroff who 'has left us forever',
which would leave the 'coward' space open for Bagman or for someone we
don't even suspect yet..
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

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                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 13:35:36 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:35:36 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
References: <9brvt7+b5uj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0ca6f$dbc9f400$bac506d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17326

Following up on Lea's comments and thoughts:
>>The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume that the "one who
>> has left us forever" comment of Voldemort wasn't directed at the absent
>> Snape.
>At who else?

I have no idea. But if he knows all discussion of Snape's further spying
activities seem quite futile - and it seems that he *did* spy at the end of
GoF. (Just what was his former postition? I sooo want to know to what he
returned.)

>>Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - which
>> means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything that
>> happened to Harry.
>Ah, if he was, Ill immediately renounce everything Ive ever said in
>defence of him. The very idea he was there gives me the shivers!!!
>Ive never even considered the possibility. Has anyone else?

I though about that - and isn't it a miracle that Harry managed to escape at
the end? He doesn't really notice what's going on behind him, he just shoots
random curses over his back. It is highly unlikely that they hit many DE
since they weren't aimed at all. So - had he help from the inside? Snape?
Things were progressing so fast that if he was there he didn't really have a
chance to step in earlier, maybe was waiting for the right moment. What if
Voldemort risen to full power might be easier to kill/destroy than in the
half human
state he was in before? Returned power = returned humanity?

> My "theorie" (which is based on opinion and my imagination, since there
are> little facts given) is that Lucius doesn't know that Severus spied for>
Dumbledore.
>>That doesnt quite correspond with the question above, does it?

No, it doesn't. But many things don't sum up here and we're probably in for
some harsh surprises.

D**






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From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 14:32:12 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:32:12 +0200
Subject: Pride/ambition in the spying game (Snape again)
Message-ID: <000c01c0ca6f$dcffb4e0$bac506d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17327

Lea pointed out that Snape might try to convince the DE and Voldy that he
never really left their side. Considering how much the Dark Lord cherishes
loyality this seems quite hopeless. But if he does anyway - just how much
will this hurt his ego?

We know Severus doesn't try to maintain his pride at all costs. Stepping
forward and showing his Dark Mark is only one example for that point. But
considering how much he seems to want to keep up his appearance I think he
would have great problems doing all the flattering and sliming he would've
to do in order to get back the DL's trust. I think that we all would have
problems with this.

I'm sure Severus learned quite early on that the job matters and not his
personal discomfort and that the price he has to pay is a very high one. He
sure is willing to pay it as long as he does the *right* thing and things
work out as they should.

But he's also a Slytherin at heart. Ambition -  someone brought up the lost
Order of Merlin, and I think that he wasn't too upset about it, he just was
upset to see that a murderer got away without punishment - is often linked
to public recognition. That's the kind of pride and ambition the Malfoy's
have, that even Ron has. Snape's ambition is to do things the right way and
be successfull at it. He probably is bitter about not getting the praise he
deserves, but it is not his main concern.

Still, acting the bad boy again and doing something that is so completely
against his nature might be difficult since he was out of the job for 14
years and isn't used to hide his opinion and be cautious about what he says
anymore.

Anyone have a completely different opinion? (We are giving the Snape-faqs a
headache, right?)

~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on.

~Robert Frost








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From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 12:24:08 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:24:08 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1277cfJiY9ZNM0000fe13@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17328

Hi pjmonkey :) !  I have a feeling this has come up, but I like the idea, 
anyway.  Of course, to free a house-elf, its master only has to give it a 
piece of clothing, not necessarily a sock.  But what if D is thinking of the 
house-elves' freeing themselves, through Dobby's example of living as a free 
elf?  After all, how are they going to get all the masters to free them?  
They may not have time to wait for S.P.E.W  to bring about a sea-change in 
wizard-opinion, and they can't trick them all.  I think the elves are 
"enslaved" largely by their own attitudes - Winky is still not paid, and 
still loyal to the house of Crouch.  Even Dobby still has a tendency to beat 
himself up (literally and figuratively :) ).  I do think they are oppressed, 
but I think the remedy lies with them.


>From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about 
>Socks
>Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:02:27 -0000
>
>hi this is my first posting so Woo Hoo!
>
>yup socks are in the books a lot, but has anyone concidered that
>Dumbledorn wanted scocks(PS) because they could be used to free the
>house elves (an encredably powerful magical creacher) and so use them
>to fight against volt if he should ever return?
>
>some one probably has
>
>then many people probably decided it was a totaly rediculose idea,
>whch it is.
>
>oh well at least i can say i have stopped lurking!
>

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 15:40:04 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <3AE196BC.CF2517E8@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010421154004.83872.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17329

> > The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume
> > that the "one who has left us forever" comment of Voldemort
> > wasn't directed at the absent Snape. Which raises the problem
> > that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - which means he would
> > have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything that
> > happened to Harry.

I don't have the book handy but didn't Lord V. go around the DE
circle and address everyone by name?  So he would know who they were
and Snape would not have been able to disguise himself.

Of course Lord V. might have kept it secret because Harry was there
but since in V's opinion Harry was about to die this should not have
mattered.

So I don't find it likely that Snape was at the DE gathering at the
"rebirthing party".  I think JKR is playing with our minds again.

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Apr 21 16:01:39 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:01:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
References: <4.3.1.2.20010421212434.00ad4b30@singnet.com.sg>
Message-ID: <3AE1AEE3.28227F3A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17330

Hi --

I was going to say that I would probably just mess this all up and that
it should wait until Heidi is back.  But, I see that Rhysenn & Catlady
have chimed in with great points & I feel I can add a bit to what they
already said.

Rhysenn wrote:

> 1) Lucius' preoccupation with Draco's grades - saying that he was
> appalled that Hermione had beaten Draco in every paper (paraphrased,
> don't have my copy of CoS with me). It's the classic sort of parental
> yardstick, where the subject of school grades keep being rehashed as a
> measure of a child's success. And note that he *only* mentions
> Hermione (who topped the level) - not Harry or Ron or anyone else -
> which may mean that Herm must be one of the very few people ranking
> above Draco in grades.

That's what I would presume too.  She is not by any means the only
muggle-born student, so it can't just be that Lucius is upset because
"the" muggle-born bested his son.  Since she is the only one mentioned
as beating Draco out in final exam grades, then it's a reasonable
presumption that Draco must be in competition with her for that high
honor.  Otherwise, Lucius would have made a more general snide reference
to his son's marks not being what they ought to be (in which case, the
assumption that he is a mediocre student would have more merit).  By
comparing Draco to Hermione though, it puts Draco more in that top
league of students.  I mean if, for the sake of argument, he was at the
mid-point academically, why in the world would Lucius be comparing him
to the #1 student in the class?  That makes no sense to me.  The
comparison only makes sense if you assume he has a reasonable shot at
besting her but failed to do so.

And, this may indeed be JKR highlighting Draco's general standing
academics-wise.  A comment was made yesterday or day before that if JKR
wanted to paint him as a bright student, she would show him lugging
around books or in the library studying.  I still disagree with this.
Lots of very bright kids get outstanding marks without ever cracking a
book.  I think this conversation exchange between Lucius & the
shopkeeper is, at a minimum, just as revealing as showing Draco in the
library.

> 2) His general witty sarcasm belies an intelligent, quick-thinking
> mind. <snip>

Yep.  I disagree that he's not witty.  Then again, I am influenced by
several factors: (a) *hearing* the books read by Jim Dale over & over --
he really has Draco's drawl down pat, and the wit comes through a bit
more in his rendition (IMO); (b) my husband strongly identifies with
Draco's wit -- has the same tendencies toward sarcasm himself (though
certainly no evil tendencies!!) -- he always wants to read the Draco
parts when we're reading the books out loud to the baby; and (c) fanfic
of course (Heidi, Cassie, etc.).  He's snide, but he's clearly a quick
thinker.

I also liked Catlady's example about Draco & Potions.  I agree that
Snape is unlikely to hold up Draco as a good example, if he's really
only an average or mediocre example.  Snape  may like to use Draco to
get at Harry (and to curry favor with Lucius perhaps), but he does have
a keen appreciation for his subject from all appearances.

I'm convinced Draco is above-average at least, and I can buy the notion
that he's Top Ten material.  There's enough evidence of that for me to
believe it could be true.  I don't see much counter evidence that
strongly enough suggests the opposite.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr 21 16:04:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:04:09 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <9brvt7+b5uj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsb1p+lbgt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17331

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
>  "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote: a good theory on the 
> Snape-Malfoy-relationship, so thanks for your thoughts. 
> 
> I?ll only comment on a few aspects for now.
> 
> > The following theory can only be reasonable if we assume that the 
> "one who
> > has left us forever" comment of Voldemort wasn't directed at the 
> absent
> > Snape. 
> 
> At who else?

I've thought about (and commented) on this before.  I don't think 
this comment was about Snape, but about Karkaroff.  I think that 
Karkaroff is the one who has left forever, because to gain his 
freedom from Azkaban he denounced Rook, a DE, and tried to betray 
others, who had already died or been captured.  Therefore he betrayed 
Voldemort and his followers.  This was widely known as it was 
discussed publically at his sentencing.  Furthermore, Barty Crouch as 
Moody tells Harry that Karkaroff has fled because he is afraid of the 
fact that Voldemort has once more gained strength, and that he 
betrayed too many people to be welcomed back into the fold.  He says 
(paraphrase) that Karkaroff won't get far, as Voldemort has ways of 
tracking down his enemies.  He expects Voldemort to kill Karkarof - 
note also the "enemy" which is the exact word used by Barty Crouch.

Therefore it stands to reason that Snape is the one Voldemort thinks 
is too cowardly to return.  I still believe that Snape did return to 
Voldemort that night, at the request of Dumbledore, to begin spying 
again.  Everything points towards this.  We know that Snape went 
somewhere that night.  Dumbledore wishes him luck, is apprehensive 
about what is going to happen, asks Snape if he is ready and 
prepared.  If he was asking Snape to do something in the future, he 
wouldn't speak quite in those terms.  I think Dumbledore and Snape 
are also counting on the fact that Voldemort would accept Snape back 
without doing him too much damage, because he would know that Snape 
would be expected to be at Hogwarts, and now that Barty Crouch can no 
longer be used, it would be too useful to have Snape there, 
supposedly spying for him, to pass up on.  Therefore it seems likely 
that Snape has returned, is spying for Dumbledore, yet Voldemort 
expects Snape to be spying for him.

> >Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - 
> which
> > means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw 
everything 
> that
> > happened to Harry.
> 
> Ah, if he was, I?ll immediately renounce everything I?ve ever said 
in 
> defence of him. The very idea he was there gives me the shivers!!! 
> I?ve never even considered the possibility. Has anyone else?
> 
> > I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him, how can 
Malfoy 
> not know?

This, I don't understand.  I thought that Voldemort had gone through 
everyone who was there.  My theory only works if Snape turns up later 
and is one of the three missing who Voldemort refered to.  However, 
as regards Lucius Malfoy, I have always supposed that Snape was not 
told who all the other DEs were - afterall, he didn't know that 
Wormtail was one - he seems to be very much Voldemort's secret 
weapon.  Also, if he did know, doesn't it follow that Dumbledore 
would also have been told?

I don't think that Voldemort does know that Snape betrayed him (see 
above my first comments on Karkaroff's betrayal.  We know that 
Dumbledore vouched for Snape - do we know how widely known this was?  
Or was this supposedly part of Voldemort's plan?  To have Snape at 
Dumbledore's side - not knowing that Snape is working for him 
(Dumbledore?).  The possibilities are endless, but from canon, to me 
it just makes more sense that Snape is the coward and Karkaroff is 
the one who has left forever - otherwise what else could Snape have 
done that night?

Catherine




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 19 22:02:41 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:02:41 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Character Sketch
Message-ID: <LAW2-F142Yyk6QmhgyD0000eb3c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17332

Sarah wrote:


>I have to disagree with this.  Yes, Harry has been
>lucky several times.  Doesn't mean that his powers
>rival Voldy's, or that they ever will for that matter.
>  In fact, IMO, most of Harry's successes were more out
>of stregnth of character than out of stregnth of his
>actual powers.  Or, in some cases, out of the stregnth
>of his mother's love for him, which was really, as far
>as we know, the only reason he "defeated" Voldemort in
>the first place.  IMO, one of the best things about
>Harry is that he's really very average.  Other than
>his outstanding Quidditch talents and a natural
>ability with DATDA, he really isn't super-powerful or
>anything.  He just has many fine attributes and a bit
>of luck.  ;)

I have to disagree with your disagreement *g*  There are several indications 
that Harry will be an exceptional wizard, (though he may have a long way to 
go) as well as having great strength of character.  There was pulling 
Gryffindor's sword out of the hat, for instance, and Lupin's comments that 
he was doing very well on the patronus for a 13 year old, *before* he 
produced his best effort.  I suppose you could put his resistance to the 
Imperius curse (the only one in his class who was able to) down to strength 
of character, but I think the distinction is blurred here.  (Aren't all the 
most powerful wizards, V included, those with great strength of character?)  
And his father, described as brilliant, was precocious in becoming an 
animagus.

I also don't believe his mother's love was the only thing that enabled him 
to defeat Voldemort - *all* mothers love their babies, so there's nothing 
particularly unusual there.  Otherwise, a witch or wizard of any age, with a 
mother living, could have enjoyed the same protection.
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From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Apr 21 16:48:42 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:48:42 -0000
Subject: Hermione 
In-Reply-To: <9avnit+8835@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsdla+7o2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17333

Demelza wrote:
> 
But this raises the questions why Hermione studies so much when she 
clearly knows the material and why would her greatest fear be to fail 
classes? It could be that Hermione equates her self-worth with her 
grades. But then, why should she equate her self-worth with 
*academic* success? In other words, what is the origin of this and 
how does this affect Hermione's interaction with others? This opens a 
can of worms concerning Hermione's psyche and can explain how she 
regards/treats others. 
> 

Remember, now, that Hermione's boggart of Prof. McGonagall came at 
the end of a very highly stressful year for her.  She was taking 
every class that Hogwarts offered, using the Time Turner, and trying 
to help out Hagrid in his appeal to save Buckbeak.  She was tired all 
the time.  And I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm that 
exhausted I don't trust myself or what I know to be true.  At that 
moment, the last exam of the year, she was most likely on the edge 
and was worried that she had over-reached and wouldn't pass any of 
her classes.  I also think that the Crookshanks-Scabbers affair was 
an extension of this exhaustion.  If she hadn't been so tired and 
overworked, she may have noticed that something was amiss in the way 
Crookshanks was acting towards Scabbers.

I see Hermione as a person who Just Likes To Know Stuff.  Especially 
in the wizarding world since she is a relative newcomer.  She grew up 
in a Muggle household, probably by parents who encouraged learning, 
reading, and finding out the "why" of things, so Hermione wants to be 
prepared for this whole new world.  I don't think that she equates 
her self-worth with her academic success, otherwise she'd do more 
bragging about it.  I think she gains personal satisfaction from a 
job well done.  She may also be trying to prove that she, a Muggle-
born, *belongs* in this world.  

As for her treatment of others, let's look at how she treats 
Neville.  It is always with the utmost kindness.  She is the one of 
the three who notices how horrified he looks after the DADA lesson 
with the Unforgivable Curses.  She helps him out in Potions.  I think 
she is also the only one of their class who is closest to Neville.  
I'd like to think that if she hadn't already said yes to Krum, she'd 
have gone to the Yule Ball with him.  

Sorry if this thread has come to an end, but I was out of town for a 
week and am now in the process of catching up with 1000 messages here!

Trina




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 16:49:50 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:49:50 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
In-Reply-To: <9brpuu+ft8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsdne+4qhu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17334

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
The relationship between Snape and 
> Lucius Malfoy.

> In the "parting of the ways" chapter, Harry tells Fudge the names 
of 
> the DE who were present at Voldemort?s rebirth to make him believe 
it 
> really happened, and when he names Lucius Malfoy,
> 
> "Snape made a sudden movement. But as Harry looked at him, his eyes 
> flew back to Fudge." (paraphrase).
> 
> That?s another fantastic hint giving wings to our thoughts, isn?t 
it?

I for one do believe there is a relationship between Snape and Lucius 
Malfoy.  I have believed that since PoS.  I don't believe Snape cares 
for Lucius at all.  Just a hunch.  There is more to the way Snape 
treats Draco also.  I'm just not sure what it is.

Surely that sudden movement Snape made is a hint.  JKR says GoF is a 
very, very, very important book and it's pivotal. It's almost the 
heart of the series.  I love The Parting of the Ways. I can't believe 
JKR put this *sudden movement* in this chapter if it didn't mean 
anything.

Koinonia

    





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 17:15:23 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:15:23 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy/Rosebush
In-Reply-To: <9bsb1p+lbgt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsf7b+csdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17335

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I've thought about (and commented) on this before.  I don't think 
> this comment was about Snape, but about Karkaroff.  I think that 
> Karkaroff is the one who has left forever,

 He says 
> (paraphrase) that Karkaroff won't get far, as Voldemort has ways of 
> tracking down his enemies.  He expects Voldemort to kill Karkarof - 
> note also the "enemy" which is the exact word used by Barty Crouch.
> 
> Therefore it stands to reason that Snape is the one Voldemort 
thinks 
> is too cowardly to return.


IMO I think Karkaroff is the coward.  I don't get the impression that 
the *coward* will be killed.  V. just says he will pay.  It seems 
that the coward will get another chance but at a great price.  
However, the one who has left forever is to be killed.  There is not 
to be a second chance.  After PoS, I would assume that Voldemort 
knows Snape has left him forever. Voldemort had Quirrell and then BC 
Jr on his side, working at Hogwarts.  As far as we know Voldemort 
never attempted to make contact with Snape after finding out Snape 
was at Hogwarts.  Voldemort dearly wants to have someone on the 
inside.  If he thought Snape was just a coward he would have 
attempted to contact him.  Plus I believe there are things that 
Voldemort knows about Snape that we don't know yet which would leave 
V. to believe Snape has left him forever.

  
  I still believe that Snape did return to 
> Voldemort that night, at the request of Dumbledore, to begin spying 
> again.  Everything points towards this.  We know that Snape went 
> somewhere that night.  

Though I don't think Snape went back to Voldemort that night, I do 
believe it is possible.  Just because Snape went somewhere that night 
doesn't mean he went to Voldemort.  IF Snape did go to V., I still 
believe he went as Severus Snape and not in some polyjuice form, as 
we have discussed before.

I believe I am messing up on who said what so I'll just make some 
comments.  I guess it is possible that Snape was at the DE meeting 
though it would be highly unlikely.  We don't see Snape in the last 
tournament game until after Harry is back.  I guess Snape could have 
been at the meeting, immediately come back to Hogwarts, and then went 
back to Voldemort.  The problem I have with that is I don't believe 
Snape would have let Voldemort just kill Harry.  He would have done 
what he could, even if it cost him his life, to protect him.  How 
Harry got away I'm not quite sure.  Voldemort and his followers 
looked pretty helpless in that scene.


Snape might not have known who all the DE's were but surely most 
people suspect the Malfoy family of being involved.  Snape would be a 
fool not to believe Lucius wasn't a DE.  No, I think spy Snape knows 
quite a bit and isn't surpried that Lucius is in the thick of it.

There were some comments about the rosebush scene with Snape and 
Karkaroff.  Let's face it.  Snape is a man and is capable of having 
loved just like anyone else.  I believe Snape was in love at one time 
and the kids in the rosebushes just brings back painful memories of 
the one he has lost.  If he can't be with the one he loved then they 
are not going to get an opportunity to get close to the one they 
like.  So very like Snape! 

Koinonia  





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Apr 21 17:20:46 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:20:46 -0000
Subject: Percy 
In-Reply-To: <9avr03+jugr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsfhe+u9in@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17336

Catherine wrote:
 
I agree with you totally.  I have always felt sorry for Percy.  The 
major problem with him is that he is perfectionist, and, I believe, 
basically insecure, which means he has to over achieve in order to 
live up to his own standards.  He is very proud of his achievements, 
and puts as much energy into his report on cauldron thicknesses as 
his exams and his roles as Prefect/Headboy. 

My take on Percy is that he is walking the fine line between Big 
Brother and Younger Brother.   Bill and Charlie were both "famous" in 
their own right at Hogwarts.  Bill was a Headboy and Charlie was a 
great Quidditch player, so Percy also has a lot to live up to in the 
Weasley household.  Depending on the ages of the oldest Weasley boys, 
Percy was an early Hogwarts student when Bill and Charlie were in 
their last years at Hogwarts.  I think he, like the other boys (F, G, 
&  R) wants to carve out his own niche in the student body.  And, 
after the B&C left school he was the Big Brother to the fun-loving, 
trouble-making twins.  I can just hear Molly Weasley telling 
Percy "to make sure that the twins don't cause too much trouble" as 
they get aboard the train.  He feels responsible for his younger 
siblings, who tend to ignore his Cassandra-like croakings and do what 
they like.  

"In return, he is ridiculed by everyone in his family barr Mrs 
Weasley (and perhaps, less than the others, Ginny) and his boss can't 
even get his name right.  I have always felt that his pomposity has 
always stemmed from this insecurity and perfectionism, with a dash of 
lack of sense of humour for good measure - and this latter element 
again is probably due to wanting to be looked up to, and not made fun 
of, and he has been made fun of all his life."

I agree, although I think "ridiculed" is a bit strong.  The others do 
love to tease him due to his serious nature.  He is also very like 
Molly Weasley, in the whole rule-abiding behavior.  Arthur seems a 
little more laid-back as do the others.  

"Because of the perfectionist in him, and his regard for his family 
(which I believe in very strongly) I think that part of the reason he 
shut himself away during CoS is because of self-loathing (he failed 
his family and did not live up to his own exacting standards) and 
because he probably thinks that George, Fred and Ron think the same 
thing."

Perhaps he was afraid to break down in front of the others and show 
how worried he is about his baby sister.  I think Precy could have a 
tendecy to brood over things (much like our dear Harry) and this 
would be a prime brooding time.

Trina
President of "Percy Lovers Unite"





From bohners at pobox.com  Sat Apr 21 17:55:42 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:55:42 -0400
Subject: Was Snape at the DE meeting?
References: <20010421154004.83872.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02f501c0ca8c$52f82440$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17337

> > > that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - which means he would
> > > have known that Lucius was there *and* saw everything that
> > > happened to Harry.

> I don't have the book handy but didn't Lord V. go around the DE
> circle and address everyone by name?  So he would know who they were
> and Snape would not have been able to disguise himself.

"Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others,
and spoke to them."  (GoF Ch. 33, pg. 564 Canadian Ed.)

Yes, Snape could have been there.  I don't think he was, but he could have
been.  However, I suspect it's more likely that Snape is one of the three
that Voldemort mentions at the end:

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service.
One, too cowardly to return... he will pay.  One, who I believe has left me
for ever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most
faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service."

The "most faithful servant" is presumably Barty Crouch; I don't think
there's any good reason to dispute that, since Voldemort already referred to
him as "my faithful servant at Hogwarts" earlier.  I don't know if there's
much grounds to suppose that this could be Snape, although it would make
things terribly interesting if it were.

The coward is most likely Karkaroff, who certainly displayed a fine show of
panic and ran off to try and hide from Voldemort when put to the test.

Snape is most likely the one V. believes has left him forever.  However,
note that V. says "I believe has left me," not simply "who has left me".
That "I believe" is quite significant, because it shows that V. is not
actually *certain* that Snape has left him forever, only that it appears to
him that this is most likely the case.  As such, there is still room for
Snape, if he is quick-thinking enough to come up with a really super alibi,
to come back.  And given Snape's airtight reputation in front of everyone at
Hogwarts as a nasty, spiteful, Gryffindor-hating, Slytherin-favouring, Harry
Potter-persecuting type, I really don't think it would be impossible for him
to work his way back into the DE's.

On the other hand, it might be awfully difficult, unless he had some way to
actually explain away (in a very convincing fashion) Dumbledore's assertion
that he had turned spy against Voldemort.  It all depends on exactly who was
at Karkaroff's trial.  There were at least two hundred witches and wizards
there by Harry's account, and Dumbledore's statement didn't cause a ripple
of surprise among them, which would indicate that all of them had already
heard D. defend Snape on these grounds before.  Crouch certainly knew about
it, as did Mad-Eye Moody.  Rita Skeeter is not shown as being present at
Karkaroff's trial, so it obviously wasn't public:  it may actually be that
the two hundred witches and wizards on the council that tried Karkaroff were
all completely trustworthy and kept the information about Snape's role as a
spy secret.

I doubt it, though.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 17:51:53 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:51:53 -0000
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy/Rosebush
In-Reply-To: <9bsf7b+csdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bshbp+7a72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17338

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> 
> I believe I am messing up on who said what so I'll just make some 
> comments.  I guess it is possible that Snape was at the DE meeting 
> though it would be highly unlikely.  We don't see Snape in the last 
> tournament game until after Harry is back.  I guess Snape could 
have 
> been at the meeting, immediately come back to Hogwarts, and then 
went 
> back to Voldemort.  

I don't think it is possible. Almost immediately after Harry returns 
via the portkey, "Moody" takes him to his room, and within a short 
while (10 minutes? not more than 15 minutes, I'd think) Dumbledore, 
McConagall and *Snape* burst into the room. If Snape was at the DE 
convention, how could he come back so quickly? He couldn't Apparate 
into Hogwarts, and how could he arrive otherwise within 10-15 minutes 
of Harry's arrival?

Naama





From kris403 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 18:20:03 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:20:03 -0000
Subject: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <20010421133655.11351.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9bsj0j+d1t3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17339

I'm a lurker.  I hardly have enough time to read all the posts....  hate to comment on something that has already been said, but this one I had to comment.   I am a teacher.  Granted, I have only been teaching two years, but I look at Snape's attitude from a different perspecive.  

1.  Yes, Snape does lose his temper a few times, but lets look at the circumstances.  Harry (along with his friends) do tend to get into a lot of trouble.  Going to Hogsmeade without permission, going into the forbidden forest, just roaming around the school at night.  They are breaking school rules.  More often than not, they don't receive punishment.  In fact the Headmaster has saved them a couple times.  As a teacher who in theory was trying to be fair and consistent in discipline (I'm not saying he is), this would push me to my limit.  Also Snape has been fairly sure that Harry has been responsible for events, such as Sirius's escape, and he can't prove it, and is basicaly told he is crazy.  

2.  As for playing favorites in his classroom, maybe his is just trying to show how real life is.  I am constantly frustrated with students who have no real value for life and death.  They look at movies about war (Saving Private Ryan) and think it is fake.  One girl in my class actually laughed.  Maybe wizard children are struggling with the same values.  Snape lived through Voldemort's reign of terror and he sees students who are fascinated with the "Boy who Lived", but have no thought of all the other consequences.  How many people died trying to stop him, how many people are now the same as Neville's parents?  Countless wizards fought and yet Harry receives all the glory.  Maybe  Snape is just  trying to help his students see outside the world of Harry.

3.  Let's look long term.  Hypothetically, Snape may have figured that Voldie wouldn't be dead forever.  Since he was a death eater he would know about all the experiments Voldie was doing to become immortal.  Maybe he knew he would have to take up the fight again and so he decided to stay in character.  If he had to become a spy again how credible would he be if he had befriended Harry, or was even fair to him?  On the outside he is evil, but I think Harry is going to respect him as he sees how Voldemort will pick his plans up where he left off.  

just my opinions
Kris




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 18:26:11 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:26:11 -0000
Subject: Is Snape going to be Potions prof next year?
In-Reply-To: <02f501c0ca8c$52f82440$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9bsjc3+gcnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17340

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 

> Snape is most likely the one V. believes has left him forever.  
However,
> note that V. says "I believe has left me," not simply "who has left 
me".
> That "I believe" is quite significant, because it shows that V. is 
not
> actually *certain* that Snape has left him forever, only that it 
appears to
> him that this is most likely the case.  As such, there is still 
room for
> Snape, if he is quick-thinking enough to come up with a really 
super alibi,
> to come back.  And given Snape's airtight reputation in front of 
everyone at
> Hogwarts as a nasty, spiteful, Gryffindor-hating, Slytherin-
favouring, Harry
> Potter-persecuting type, I really don't think it would be 
impossible for him
> to work his way back into the DE's.

Hmmm . . . I hadn't thought of this before. I guess I'd always taken 
Voldemort's assertion that he can tell when one of his servants is 
lying to be true -- but perhaps not. 

I think it would be *awfully* difficult for Snape to work his way 
back into the Death Eater ranks. He has been working for Dumbledore 
all this time (probably because he couldn't get work anywhere else, 
though other "former" Death Eaters have even gone to work for the 
Ministry). I think that even if Voldemort does let him in, it will be 
a very painful experience. We saw how cruel he was toward Wormtail.

But here's a question. 

Is Snape going to be Potions professor next year? If he's with 
Voldemort, he can't work for Dumbledore -- or would Voldemort try and 
plant Snape at Hogwarts like he planted "Moody," to keep an eye on 
Harry and track his movements, when in fact Snape would actually be 
protecting Harry along with Dumbledore.

I don't know. I think Dumbledore is assuming a lot if he has in fact 
asked Snape to return to the Death Eaters. Voldemort is many things, 
but I don't think a foot is one of them.

Stacy




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 18:33:56 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:33:56 -0000
Subject: Is Snape going to be Potions prof next year?
In-Reply-To: <9bsjc3+gcnq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsjqk+kss9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17341

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:

> Voldemort is many things, 
> but I don't think a foot is one of them.

*bangs herself in the head* Fool, not foot, lol. Sorry.

By the way, I think it would be very weird if Snape *wasn't* Potions 
prof fifth year -- I just can't see Hogwarts without him.

Stacy




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 19:00:59 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:00:59 -0000
Subject: Wolsfbane - Draco's Marks 
In-Reply-To: <3AE196BC.CF2517E8@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9bsldb+46q3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17342

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Monika wrote:
> > Lupin must take the wolfsbane potion over a period of time
> > to keep his mind during that one night, he still transforms
> > into a wolf, but he is harmless.
> 
> I can't figure out from canon how often (during the 'the week, 
preceding
> the
> full moon') Lupin has to take the Wolfsbane Potion. I don't 
understand
> why it is named Wolfsbane Potion -- if it is made out of Wolfsbane, 
why
> isn't it poisonous to werewolves, and if it is not made out of
> Wolfsbane, why isn't named Wolfsblessing Potion instead, being as 
how it
> HELPS the poor werewolves. 

It helps the human part of the werewolf, but it *is* a bane on the 
wolf part, since it prevents the human to completely change into 
wolf. It actually prevents the most important change - that of the 
mind. Also, as a consequence, the werewolf is not driven to bite 
other humans, which puts an end to the the infection being spread. 
Again - bane on the wolf, no?


> Meanwhile, the quote that always comes up on this topic is Lucius 
to
> Draco at the beginning of CoS: "I would have thought you'd be 
ashamed
> that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," -- if 
Hermione
> is the ONLY person who beat Draco in exams, he must be brighter 
than
> suggested by his 'not very witty witticisms'  (yay, Naama!) and the
> general idiocy of praising the Dark Lord's comeback out in public 
on the
> Hogwarts Express
> 

I agree that the quote does point to Draco's being at least an 
above-average student. (Although it doesn't follow that he is second 
only to Hermione. There may be other students who got better grades, 
but who are wizard-born).


Naama




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 19:24:08 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:24:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Godparents (some comments)
In-Reply-To: <017e01c0ca32$bc80b120$503670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010421192408.12749.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17343

--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> As to Penny's question, I think a godparent could be
> seen a proxy guardian,
> but grandparents, aunts and uncles (The Dursleys -
> gaaaah!!!) would probably
> be considered first, and there is no legal bond
> (unless specified). 

True, but I thought that Sirius *was* specified
legally as Harry's guardian.  I don't have my copy of
PoA with me right now, but Sirius says something like,
"Your parents wanted you to live with me if anything
happened to them."  Family members aren't always the
ones chosen as guardians, for a variety of reasons. 
Despite having a very large and loving family, my
parents put in their will that some neighbors of ours
would be my brother's and my guardians if anything
happened.  This was so we wouldn't have to move and
change schools.  

Picture James and Lily after Harry is born. 
Lily: "Okay, we need to be practical and specify
someone to raise Harry if anything happens to us."
James: "Well, there's no one on *my* side who could do
it."
Lily: "Can you imagine my sister's face if Harry
showed up on her doorstep?"
[Both dissolve in hysterical laughter]
James, wiping away tears of laughter: "All right,
let's ask Sirius instead."

<g>


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 19:27:57 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:27:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
In-Reply-To: <9brmdr+tu6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010421192757.12993.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17344

--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> BTW, I dont  seem to remember a single "normal"
> clock or watch ever 
> to come up in the books...

Harry seemed to have had a perfectly normal
wristwatch, but we only see it mentioned, IIRC, after
it's busted when he goes swimming in the lake in it. 
After that, Harry keeps looking at Ron's watch in
class to see how much time is left.  No description of
it, though, so it could be a wizard watch and Harry
just finds it normal by now.

Come to think of it, Hermione says that "all those
things Muggles use instead of magic" don't work on
Hogwarts grounds.  So a normal Muggle wristwatch would
probably break.  Hmm...okay, never mind.  THis post
had no purpose. <g>


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 19:38:54 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:38:54 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <dc.5339d01.28133bce@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17345

I was just rereading GoF a few days ago, and I noticed how much emphasis V 
puts on loyalty. Then I thought about what Hagrid said in SS: There isn't a 
wizard that's gone bad that hasn't been in Slytherin. (not exact quote, but 
you get the picture). In  my twisted little mind, that's about to change in 
future books or has already happened, but Hagrid didn't know it. As all the 
names of the DE aren't known, some could be Hufflepuff. Their main 
characteristic is loyalty when they're being sorted. Any thoughts/ 
correction/ questions?
Wicky, who is not wearing socks right now

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 20:38:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:38:05 -0000
Subject: HRH die/date? - MOM - Lupin - Snape - Draco - watches
Message-ID: <9bsr3e+ud6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17346

Morag wrote:

>JKR has often said Hermione is based on herself as a girl, or at any 
rate has much in common
>with her.  Someone pointed out that that's one reason Hermione won't 
die (I
>agree).  Perhaps it's also one reason Hermione won't be other than a 
friend
>to Harry.  Not that I want to get into the whole shipping thing...

Interesting.  JKR has also talked about Harry as her fictional son, so 
the whole thing would be downright incestuous.

However, before the R/Hers start setting off fireworks from the poop 
deck, Ron is also drawn from a friend of hers, so if she has the same 
qualms as LMA, she might not want to put Ron and Hermione together 
either . . .

Florence wrote:

>I've always thought that the Misistry of Magic was not very 
functional
>during the Voldemort years - either by mass infiltration or multiple
>deaths or whatever.

"Imagine that Voldemort's powerful now.  You don't know who his 
supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who isn't . . 
. . Every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearances, more 
torturing . . . the Ministry of Magic's in disarray, they don't know 
what to do . . . ." --Sirius, Gf 27.

>Marianne, with full knowledge that she's no athlete. 

Ah, but you haven't tried Quidditch yet, have you--you never know!

A few weeks ago, I sent my sister FB and QTA for her birthday (she's 
read all the novels).  I got a very nice note back saying that she was 
going to take up Quidditch just as soon as she learned how to fly.

Marianne wrote:

>Remus is hesitant to reveal to Harry that 
>he was a friend of both James and Sirius.  It's all very cautious.

Perhaps one reason he doesn't tell Harry he knew his parents is that 
he is afraid the next question will be (as indeed it is): "so you knew 
Sirius Black, too?" which is a very uncomfortable subject at the 
moment.  Harry doesn't know until Christmas that his dad and Black 
were friends, but Lupin may not know he doesn't know.  Lupin might, 
IOW, be motivated less by a desire to keep at arms' length from Harry 
(don't tell him I was close friends with his dad) than by a desire not 
to be associated with Black (don't tell him I was close friends with 
the man who's trying to kill him).

Steve wrote:

>You could even make a case for the fact that he didn't hear his 
>father at all, but someone else. After all, when he tells Lupin that 
>he hears his father, Lupin gives him a peculiar look. He's never 
>actually heard his father's voice at that time. Was his father even 
>there? What does Lupin know about that incident that makes him 
>suprised at Harry's interpretation of what he hears? Was it someone 
>else having taken Polyjuice Potion? Was LUPIN there? Whoa!

Is Lupin perhaps HARRY'S FATHER?  (Lupin begins to breathe heavily and 
James Earl Jones's voice emerges from his lips...)  No, please, tell 
me it's a bad dream!

Catlady wrote:

>I wouldn't put it past Snape to poison one of the
>students, altho' I *think* he would have a supply of antidote right
>there in his hand when he did it.

Me either.  I think he would get a very big kick out of making Harry 
take poison and letting him go right to the brink before getting the 
antidote.  And being disappointed if Harry's own antidote actually 
worked and Snape's wasn't necessary.  Good thing Colin came in when he 
did.

Catlady again:

>Incidentally, one thing I have been wondering lately is whether
>Karkaroff will try to come back to Hogwarts seeking protection from
>Voldemort trying to kill him.

Interesting--why *did* Karkaroff flee, when Hogwarts was probably the 
best place on earth for him to be safe from Voldemort?  Why didn't he 
run to Dumbledore and beg for his protection?  Is he being honorable 
(not wanting to endanger Hogwarts by his presence) or foolish, or does 
he perhaps know of somewhere he might be able to hide from V?

Magda wrote re: Snape:

>He doesn't believe <snip> that you can appeal to a child's conscience 
(although he and Lupin
>say pretty much the same thing in PoA after Harry gets caught being
>off the grounds, he ensures that his warning has no effect by
>taunting Harry and getting his back up)

Great thoughts on Snape, Magda.  (I don't see him as asexual, but I'll 
leave that one be.)

I meant to respond some time ago to whoever pointed out that Lupin and 
Snape say much the same thing to Harry (genius--please step forward 
for your bow!) and the subsequent remark that Harry reacts totally 
differently because of his respect for Lupin and lack thereof for 
Snape.  I think that that's part of it, but there's more to it than 
that.  Snape and Lupin both say "we're trying to protect you and 
you're putting yourself in danger," and they both speak of his father, 
but there the similarity ends.  Snape uses the opportunity to say that 
Harry is arrogant like his father.  Lupin invokes Harry's parents not 
as arrogant jerks, but as the first people who would want him to be 
safe.  Harry feels so rotten afterwards, IMO, partly because (1) he IS 
being reckless and making trouble for everyone, (2) he respects Lupin 
and wants his respect, but most of all (3) his behavior is "a poor way 
to repay" his parents, as Lupin says, especially now that he is 
all-too-aware what their sacrifice meant, having heard their terror.  
Good old-fashioned guilt.  As Magda says, Lupin knows how to appeal to 
his conscience.  Harry might be prevailed upon to feel guilty that 
"everyone from the Minister for Magic downwards" is trying to keep him 
safe despite himself, but what works a lot better is pointing out to 
him that the people he cares about most are doing so or have done so. 
 Dumbledore, Hagrid, or Lupin himself would be good examples; his own 
parents are the most pointed.

Dinah, your theory that Snape was at the "rebirthing party" gave me a 
major case of the creeps.  

Catherine wrote:

>I thought that Voldemort had gone through everyone who was there.

No, it does specifically say that he passed some over in GF 33 (JKR 
cleverly leaves the total number very vague).  And they were hooded 
and masked, so Harry only knows the ones V identified.

Rita the Lady of Cats wrote:

>In SS, Ron tells Harry that Lucius disowned V immediately that he was
>out of power, that Lucius claimed he had been bewitched by V, and 
that
>Arthur doesn't believe that claim. Apparently Fudge does believe it, 
and
>I like to believe that Severus is deluded into believing it by his 
own
>wishful thinking.

Why is Snape wishful of Lucius's being a good guy?  Fudge, of course, 
is a bit snobbish toward Muggles himself (I'll withhold judgment on 
whether he's actually sympathetic to the Pureblood cause) and is 
inclined to think well of people who have lots of money to donate.  
But why would Snape want to believe that LM was under the Imperius?

Catlady again:

>Amy Z already quoted that Draco reacted strongly to the Dementors:
>"That little git," [George] said calmly.  "He wasn't so cocky last 
night
>when the Dementors were down our end of the train.  Came running into
>our compartment, didn't he, Fred?"
>"Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at 
Malfoy."
>But has anyone yet suggested that Draco reacted strongly not because 
of
>being a coward but because of having horrors in HIS past? 

For the record, I don't think Draco is a coward--certainly not based 
on his fear of Dementors.  I quoted this to show that G&F can be very 
kind and supportive of Harry, not to dis Draco.

Lea wrote:

>Oh yes, please! I?m desperately waiting for your clocks and watches 
>thing! 
>
>BTW, I don?t  seem to remember a single "normal" clock or watch ever 
>to come up in the books...

We all know Steve is very shy ::snort:: so I will plug the Lexicon for 
him.  There's a whole section on watches there--check it out!

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

Harry does have a regular watch.  He checks it in CS while they're 
Crabbe and Goyle; he checks it in the lake in GF, when he again has 
one hour allotted, but (surprise) it's stopped.  I would've gotten one 
like the Weasleys' clocks, myself, but a regular 1-12 watch does come 
in useful.

Amy Z
who used to have a phases of the moon watch and really, really wants 
another one (bet Lupin has one)

--------------------------------------------------------
   "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically.  "Goblins 
 don't need protection.  Haven't you been listening to 
 what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin 
 rebellions?"
   "No," said Harry and Ron together.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 20:45:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:45:27 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <9bq9fe+48qu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bsrh7+hqbi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17347

Lyda wrote:

> My favorite HP art (well, not including my own, which is very near 
> and dear to my heart, but not available on the Net, as I don't have 
a 
> scanner) has to be Tealin Raintree's. I think that some of the anime 
> stuff is really awesome, but it's not my personal favorite style. :)
> 
> Tealin's site is down right now, but you can see some of the artwork 
> here, thanks to HP Galleries:
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/art1.htm

Thanks for the link, Lyda!  I liked a lot of these.  She (?) has a 
knack for nasty if you ask me--I liked her Vernon, Petunia, Crabbe and 
Goyle the best.

I never, ever contemplated Mr. Weasley with a beard.  He looks very 
professorial.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
 Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 17:50:15 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:50:15 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: godric's hollow / support / moderators
Message-ID: <LAW2-F64wVn20lbhsKd0001042d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17348

Doreen quoted:
<snip>
>In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're saying,
>she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's
>Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and James
>Potter are -- are-- that they're --dead."

Agree it's a village - it never occurred to me it was anything else, but the 
above quote is a clincher.  People turn up "in" villages and "at" houses.  
And I still think there is a "Potter manor" out there, complete with 
house-elves :)

And thanks from me too, Doreen, for all the warmth and support to me and to 
newbies in general.  I have always been impressed by the high standards of 
discussion - intense at times, but always courteous and friendly - on this 
list, but it's good to spell it out from time to time.

And while I'm at it, can I also say how much I appreciate the hard work and 
sensitivity of the moderators, which does so much to make HP for Grownups 
the good place it is.  All the very best, Penny - I'm sure you'll have 1200+ 
people beaming positive thoughts at you on the Big Day!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 11:34:20 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:34:20 
Subject: Fairy Godmothers (was Re: Bonfire Night/Godparents)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F46Vvjvxo6AmX300011215@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17349

Neil wrote:
<snip cogent exposition of Bonfire Night/Godparents>
I wonder who might be Harry's fairy godmother?
>In spirit, at least, it has to be Molly Weasley.

As I've said before, I think JKR studiously avoids religion in the books.  
But the whole godfather thing has a magic/folklore antecedent.  In fairy 
tales, the godparent (usually a godmother) is specifically a magical 
replacement for a dead parent.  Harry is a male Cinderella, hidden away as 
much as possible and  made to do household tasks while Dudley, the Ugly 
Brother, is petted and pandered to.  I think it's Hagrid who is the Fairy 
Godmother - he has a very maternal nature ("Norbert! Where's Mummy?") - 
stepping in to rescue Harry from the wicked step-parents, providing new 
clothes and showering him with gold.  "Going to the Ball" is, of course, 
"going to Hogwarts" - in both cases, being given a chance to find your 
rightful place in society.  Harry can't marry a prince, but he can go one 
better by *being* something pretty close to a prince - famous son of highly 
regarded family - in the wizarding world.  This is just an observation, not 
a criticism, but I think one reason HP is so popular (apart from being 
wonderful, that is) is this masculinisation of female archetypes.  Female 
readers of all ages are more used to identifying with male protagonists than 
male readers with female protagonists.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 21 21:59:00 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:59:00 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Full moon
Message-ID: <9bsvr4+p6qg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17350

As I reread PoA again it brought up an interesting question about the 
Shierking Shack sequence. Why does Lupin only transform when the full 
moon came out from behind the clouds?  I always had the impression 
that a werewolf transformed no matter what, it didn't matter whether 
or not the moon was obscured. Is this a mistake on JKR's part or just 
her idea that werewolves only transform when they are in the light of 
a full moon.  Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
       Kristin




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 22:04:48 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:04:48 -0000
Subject: Headmaster Who?
In-Reply-To: <9bo82h+74t1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bt060+is1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17351

I think the thread was who would get the Hogwarts Headmaster or 
Headmistress job when Dumbly eventually goes.  And someone raised the 
possibility of Snape getting the Durmstrung Headmaster job post-bk. 7 
(provided :fingers cross: that he doesn't get himself kill.)
But ... I would rather have him as a lowly Potion master in Hogwarts 
at least for the time being.  What would HP books be if Snape is off-
screen most of the time and can't take points from Gryffindor?


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> I have the feeling that we may have discussed this in the past, but 
> I'm about to mention again anyway. 
> 
> It doesn't seem very likely that Karkaroff will return as 
Headmaster 
> of Durmstrang next year now that's Voldemort back. So who will take 
> over the position? 
> 
> Snape perhaps? Could this be the thing that Dumbledore was asking 
him 
> to do? Will he leave Hogwarts and potions to go and sway Durmstrang 
> students to the side of light?
>  
> Did I actually have an original thought or merely a recollection of 
> some long forgotten thread?
> 
> So many questions...
> 
> Scott




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 22:18:29 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:18:29 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: watches
Message-ID: <LAW2-F120erOc0Ne0Pa0001124b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17352

Andrea wrote:

>Harry seemed to have had a perfectly normal
>wristwatch, but we only see it mentioned, IIRC, after
>it's busted when he goes swimming in the lake in it.
>After that, Harry keeps looking at Ron's watch in
>class to see how much time is left.  No description of
>it, though, so it could be a wizard watch and Harry
>just finds it normal by now.
>
>Come to think of it, Hermione says that "all those
>things Muggles use instead of magic" don't work on
>Hogwarts grounds.  So a normal Muggle wristwatch would
>probably break.  Hmm...okay, never mind.  THis post
>had no purpose. <g>

No, it's a good point.  I imagine purely mechanical things still work at 
Hogwarts, so a normal watch would be fine as long as it was clockwork.  Does 
anyone still have clockwork watches?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Apr 21 22:29:25 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:29:25 -0500
Subject: Harry & Friends; Fidelius Charm; Imperius Curse; Sirius; Harry & Intimacy
References: <9bpmii+l7rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE209C5.DD9B8AA5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17353

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> What is a "friend by circumstance"?  All of my friends are people with
>
> whom I was "thrown together," but they didn't "just happen."  We still
>
> chose each other, rather than all the other people we have been thrown
>
> together with in our lives; we chose to pursue the acquaintance, to
> deepen the relationship, etc.

I think I was objecting to the sense that *Harry* chose them and that
they were rather passive participants in the process (which is how I
interpreted Joywitch's question).

> The word "chose" stood out to me also, since fate is always a part of
> how friendships happen, but to say they "just happen" seems to
> sidestep Joy's question:  what do Ron and Hermione mean to Harry, that
>
> he is friends with them rather than someone else?

Now *that* phrasing makes sense to me!  :--)  Hmmm .... I'll have to
ruminate on that one some more.

FIDELIUS CHARM

I agree with Amy Z's first thought that the FC can't make you unknown to
*everyone* (since we have evidence that Sirius, Dumbledore & Hagrid all
knew where to find the Potters).  I like her theory that the charm
"updates" to keep the protectees protected even in the instance where
someone formerly trustworthy becomes untrustworthy.  But then, like she
later notes, how is it that only the Secret-Keeper seems vulnerable?  Is
this yet another mystery/plot hole?

How does the Fidelius Charm interact with the IMPERIUS CURSE?  Excellent
question Catherine!  I agree with Amy that the Imperius Curse is mental
- Krum was acting under it when he put the Cruciatus Curse on Cedric in
the 3rd Task.  Moody says he could make the students under an Imperius
Curse do *anything*!  So .... I think it's quite possible that you could
be forced to murder someone while under the Imperius Curse.  And, ooh,
yes, it raises all sorts of interesting questions with respect to Ron,
doesn't it?  Considering my betrayal theory and the fact that Ron is
seemingly more susceptible to the Imperius Curse than some others.
Granted, we don't know that Hermione isn't equally susceptible, but it's
arguably implied that she is not (since it's affirmatively stated that
Ron had a harder time shaking it off than others).

But, as to how it might work with respect to someone protected by the
Fidelius Charm ... hmmm.  If the FC "updates" itself as Amy suggests,
then it wouldn't circumvent the FC.  But, if it does *not* update
itself, then Harry could be vulnerable to attack by friends operating
under the IC -- it would seem.

SIRIUS

Amanda noted that Harry wouldn't have been allowed to live with Sirius
if the "ancient magic" protection can only extend to Harry while he is
in the care of blood relatives.  She also noted that it's been
speculated that this is one reason why Sirius' name has not been cleared
yet (plot point).  The other reason that comes to mind is that if Harry
were living with Sirius, he would surely ask lots of questions that JKR
doesn't want us or Harry knowing the answers to yet.  <g>  It was
inevitable (though quite sad) that he couldn't go & live with Sirius.

BTW, I loved Marianne's analysis of why Harry would feel closer to
Sirius than to Lupin (the emotionally-charged scene in the Shrieking
Shack).  Very nicely put.

HARRY & INTIMACY:

> Me, I believe that Harry doesn't even want to *fantasize* about making
> out with Cho or even talking to her, much less do so in real life. I
> believe that his crush conflicts only of he likes looking at her. To me,
> that is an aesthetic feeling rather than a romantic or sexual feeling. I
> believe that Harry is semi-consciously deliberating avoiding or
> sublimating all romantic or sexual feelings, because those are desires
> that can lead to intimate interactions with another person, and he is
> still in the habit of avoiding intimacy, because of his unfortunate
> Dursley background. Look, when he loved someone (his parents), they went
> away from (were killed) when he was too young to even remember, and from
> then until Hogwarts, everyone he has interacted with has kept him at a
> cold distance. Intimacy is first scary because of being unfamiliar, and
> more scary because the unconscious remembers that the one time he tried
> it, it was followed by disaster.
>
I can agree with this for the most part.  I do think he's had intimacy
with Ron & Hermione (friends on both counts!  <g>).  But, I think we
will see alot more of Harry pushing back from both of them as well as
from others -- he's going to realize that those close to him are very
real targets.  This "pushing back" may not be too extreme in OoP, but I
would wager it will become very strong when the first person that Harry
is truly close to dies (a Weasley, Hagrid, Lupin or Sirius (God
forbid!), etc.).  I think this is another reason why Harry may not have
a canon romance.  Avid shipper though I am ... it's really & truly
something I see happening post-canon (H/H that is).  I see FITD in the
canon, with Harry probably liking *no one* because intimacy will present
such issues for him.

Rita (aka Catlady) wrote:

> Not much of a comfort, except as a subject for daydreams, to other "ugly duckling" children who
> haven't discovered any great talents yet, or maybe only a great talent
> for schoolwork that leads people to call them nerd and geek and wonk and
> bossy know-it-all and showing signs of OCD.
>
LOL!  Thanks Rita .... from Hermione's greatest fan.  :--)

Yes Amy -- I did see your comment about letting Dudley-turned-ground
sloth live in a box in *Percy's* room!!  :--)

Penny (cleaning out the HP box in case the baby decides she might
actually come sometime soon!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 21 23:07:19 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:07:19 -0700
Subject: Muggle Watches - Snape & Lucius - Godric's Hollow - Werewolf - More
Message-ID: <3AE212A6.6ADD50CB@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17354

Andrea ra wrote:
> Come to think of it, Hermione says that "all those
> things Muggles use instead of magic" don't work on
> Hogwarts grounds.  So a normal Muggle wristwatch would
> probably break.

I'm pretty sure that it's only electric, electronic, and post-electric
(e.g. nuclear) things that don't work at Hogwarts.

(Oh, poo, Morag posted this same thought while I was typing about
lycanthropy!)

So a mechanical clockwork watch powered by being wound with a
winding-stem would work at Hogwarts -- nowdays only a few multi-thousand
dollar luxury watches don't have chips and batteries, but when I was
young, all the cheap Timexi were clockwork-winding and the only digital
or battery powered watches were expensive. And manual typewriters would
work at Hogwarts -- in this computer world, how many people remember
even electric typewriters? Question: what about gaslight? Would it work
at Hogwarts?

Amy Z asked me:
> Why is Snape wishful of Lucius's being a good guy?

In my universe, which does not contradict canon but is not proved by
canon, the young-adult Snape fell in love with Lucius -- not necessarily
sexually, but in something like the hero-worship sense (altho' *I*
prefer sexually) -- and has retained the emotion until now.

The Snape I see combines his arrogance and high regard for his own
intelligence and magic talent with an otherwise low self-esteem (it must
be possible, because *I* do it, and the pain of low self-esteem seems to
me a likely source of his general nastiness to all).  Lucius, who has
intelligence and magic talent AND all the blessings that Snape despises
himself for not having: conventional good looks, fair complexion,
elegance, wealth, social standing, social graces, and IMO Quidditch
skill, must have appeared to the young Snape as "everything I want to
be". If Lucius had thought it likely enough that Snape could be useful
to him (for making illegal Potions!) to spend a few minutes smiling and
talking nice to him, Severus would have been high as a kite on the
external validation: "if such an excellent person thinks well of me, I
must be okay after all".

I see a whole tangle of projection and transference: Severus seeing
Lucius as self-image, love object, and in a way father image: *my*
projection is that low self-esteem results from being raised by parents
who didn't particularly like their child and expressed more disapproval
than approval of the child -- I imagine that Severus's parents didn't
like and didn't really want children, but felt a duty to have a son to
continue the family name, and didn't approve of anything he did except
get good grades and study curses. So Lucius as a source of external
validation would be understudying a parental role.

Morag wrote:
> Agree it's a village - it never occurred to me it was anything
> else, but the above quote is a clincher.  People turn up "in"
> villages and "at" houses. And I still think there is a "Potter
> manor" out there, complete with house-elves :)

My imagination could be totally wrong, but it sees James and Lily living
(and dying) in a sweet little cottage that Lily got to decorate herself
, not a large manor house nor Gothic castle with inherited furniture.
That doesn't mean that Harry didn't inherit such a house: it could be
that James's parents had been living in it, but they were killed earlier
the same night as James and Lily.

Kristin asked:
>  the Shrieking Shack sequence. Why does Lupin only
> transform when the full  moon came out from behind the
> clouds?  I always had the impression that a werewolf
> transformed no matter what, it didn't matter whether
> or not the moon was obscured. Is this a mistake on JKR's part

Yes, but fanfic writers have invented excuses for it. Such as Snape was
experimenting with improving the Wolfbane Potion, trying to make it
prevent the physical as well as the mental transformation, and he got it
so it prevented the physical transformation until touched by moonlight,
or Snape was trying to sabotage the Wolfbane Potion so that Lupin would
turn into a werewolf in the presence of Fudge but he got this other
effect instead....

Question: In the Summer, when Full Moon rises before sun has set, does
the werewolf turn into a wolf at moonrise in the daylight or not until
sunset?

MMMfanfic wrote:
> I think the thread was who would get the Hogwarts
> Headmaster or Headmistress job when Dumbly eventually
> goes.  And someone raised the possibility of Snape getting
> the Durmstrung Headmaster job

If one of the requirements for being Headmaster/mistress of Hogwarts is
having the initials A. D. then neither Snape nor McGonagall nor Potter
is eligible for the job.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk  Sat Apr 21 23:15:44 2001
From: jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk (jamesie at team-rocket-fan.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:15:44 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <dc.5339d01.28133bce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9bt4b0+d76a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17355

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tommygirl618811 at a... wrote:
> In  my twisted little mind, that's about to change in 
> future books or has already happened, but Hagrid didn't know 
it. As all the 
> names of the DE aren't known, some could be Hufflepuff. Their 
main 
> characteristic is loyalty when they're being sorted. Any 
thoughts/ 
> correction/ questions?

I completly agree! Hufflepuffs are often characterized as being 
the more innocent good-doers, but loyalty isn't good when it's to 
a bad cause. Being especially loyal also makes it different for 
one to be convinced of a different position. Will it be the 
Hufflepuffs that continue to reak havock on the world even when 
Voldemort is defeated?

Julius




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 23:20:47 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:20:47 -0000
Subject: Headmaster Who?
In-Reply-To: <9bt060+is1q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bt4kf+hk6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17356

MMMfanfic:" I think the thread was who would get the Hogwarts 
Headmaster or Headmistress job when Dumbly eventually goes.  And 
someone raised the possibility of Snape getting the Durmstrung 
Headmaster job post-bk. 7 (provided :fingers cross: that he doesn't 
get himself kill.) But ... I would rather have him as a lowly Potion 
master in Hogwarts at least for the time being.  What would HP books 
be if Snape is off-screen most of the time and can't take points from 
Gryffindor?"

If Professor McGonagall survives the war -- odds 50-50 at best -- then 
she will be headmistress. If not, my post-war vote for headmaster is 
Remus Lupin, one the best teachers we've seen at Hogwarts.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 23:20:47 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:20:47 -0000
Subject: Headmaster Who?
In-Reply-To: <9bt060+is1q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bt4kf+3ga5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17357

MMMfanfic:" I think the thread was who would get the Hogwarts 
Headmaster or Headmistress job when Dumbly eventually goes.  And 
someone raised the possibility of Snape getting the Durmstrung 
Headmaster job post-bk. 7 (provided :fingers cross: that he doesn't 
get himself kill.) But ... I would rather have him as a lowly Potion 
master in Hogwarts at least for the time being.  What would HP books 
be if Snape is off-screen most of the time and can't take points from 
Gryffindor?"

If Professor McGonagall survives the war -- odds 50-50 at best -- then 
she will be headmistress. If not, my post-war vote for headmaster is 
Remus Lupin, one the best teachers we've seen at Hogwarts.




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 21 23:23:02 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:23:02 -0000
Subject: Bonfirenight
In-Reply-To: <9brqqi+qr0m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bt4om+ig64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17358

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:

> I?ve been wondering about it, too. I thought that the Order of the 
> Phoenix was  a sort of conspiratory secret society 
(Dumbledore?s "old 
> crowd"), because so was the group around Guy Fawkes. But it doesn?t 
> fit very well really since Guy Fawkes & friends were rather 
fanatic, 
> and I just hope the OoP will not start their operations by blowing 
up 
> the Ministry of Magic...

Might make it easier on everybody if they did, lol. J/K mostly, but I 
think the MoM is going to become a gigantic pain in the backside in 
future books -- it wouldn't surprise me if it were half-gone by the 
time everything is said and done.

Stacy




From editor at texas.net  Sun Apr 22 00:25:01 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:25:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about  Clocks
References: <20010421192757.12993.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE224DD.3594FACE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17359

Andrea wrote:

> Come to think of it, Hermione says that "all those
> things Muggles use instead of magic" don't work on
> Hogwarts grounds.  So a normal Muggle wristwatch would
> probably break.  Hmm...okay, never mind.  THis post
> had no purpose. <g>

No, this is a good thought. We had a discussion a while back about Colin Creevy's camera--how did *it* work on the grounds? Why didn't it's little electrical thingies mess up? His comments to Harry seemed to indicate that it's the developing
potion, not the camera, that make the pictures move. The picture-taking mechanism would seem to be the same. So how come his camera worked?

I had postulated that he must have an older-style camera, like a Nikon or something, where the only mechanical thing would be the light-meter (which still runs on a battery, at least on mine, so I don't know if that helps). On the admittedly
shaky logic that people who develop their own film also tend to be purists in equipment, eschewing the "idiot boxes" with the frou-frou [as my brothers call them] for Real Cameras with removable lenses and such.

Or maybe Colin's dad just didn't want to waste the money for a high-frill model for Colin..? Anyway, we've wondered about this, and I remember Harry's watch was mentioned, and I can't for the life of me remember if we ever reached a consensus
or just decided we couldn't figure it out.

--Amanda




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sun Apr 22 00:26:46 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:26:46 -0000
Subject: AD-headmasters
Message-ID: <9bt8g6+bmfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17360

 Rita Prince Winston wrote:

If one of the requirements for being Headmaster/mistress of Hogwarts 
is having the initials A. D. then neither Snape nor McGonagall nor 
Potter is eligible for the job.

Guess that leaves us with Amos Diggory and Aberforth Dumbledore. One 
bitter father of an slaughtered son, one oddball. *worried look*
/Jennifer




From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 00:45:35 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:45:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <e5.53201e8.281383af@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17361

Julius wrote:
Hufflepuffs are often characterized as being 
the more innocent good-doers, but loyalty isn't good when it's to 
a bad cause. Being especially loyal also makes it different for 
one to be convinced of a different position.

I'm writing (teehee!):
I think that the innocent thing may be a cover-up for Hufflepuffs who are 
loyal to V. They'd also be very biased toward him if they're so loyal to him, 
and wouldn't see the wrong in their ways. They would most likely rather die 
than quit serving their evil lord.
Glad to start her own discussion~
Wicky

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Apr 22 01:17:12 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:17:12 -0400
Subject: Apparating (most of the way) to Hogwarts
Message-ID: <041d01c0cacd$16173520$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17362

I'm in the process of writing my latest fic, and was wondering about
something...

Thanks to Hermione, it's been stated and reinforced a hundred times that you
can't Apparate into Hogwarts, or the grounds thereof.  But do the Hogwarts
grounds include the Forbidden Forest, or not?

Thanks for anyone who can refresh my memory on this (if I ever had a memory
about it to begin with),
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Apr 22 01:38:45 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:38:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
References: <9bjsu0+s6nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <041e01c0cacd$1709d280$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17363

> 1. Does he enjoy [teaching]? ...  No, he doesnt.

I would disagree.  I think Snape does enjoy showing his knowledge to his
students and challenging them to meet his exacting standards.  If you look
at that opening speech, I'd swear he's relishing every word, and daring them
to prove to him that they aren't "dunderheads".

We know how Snape behaves to Harry and his friends, and to less-than-capable
Gryffindors like Neville.  But we don't know how he behaves to *all* his
students.  I'm not saying that he is ever "nice" to anyone, and I'm not
saying he has a "teacher's pet" (if he does, Draco is not it, IMO).  But we
don't actually know that he hates all of his students and loathes the work
of teaching them.  We simply know that he is nasty to Gryffindors in general
and Harry in particular:  and that he has no patience with anyone who breaks
school rules.

It is possible that Snape lives in hope of finding a student who is actually
worthy of receiving the kind of advanced knowledge he possesses, and that he
is continually disgusted by the failure of most Hogwarts students to come
anywhere near his ideal.  But being frustrated with teaching is not the same
as hating it.  I have a friend who is continually frustrated with her
students, but she loves teaching.

> Rebecca explains Snapes method as "The harsh task master driving his
students to excellence". That may well be the effect with some students. And
that gives him a certain right to waspish remarks, to harsh criticism, to
lots of homework, everything that has to do with success or failure in the
field of study. ... But it does not cover that "I see no difference" remark
to Hermione in GoF. <

No, it doesn't.  But neither does that "I see no difference" remark have
anything to do with Snape's abilities as a teacher, nor does it prove that
he hates teaching.  It simply shows that Snape is being cruel to Hermione on
a personal level.  The fact that it takes place in his classroom is
incidental.  He is insulting her, plain and simple.  And yes, it is
unprofessional, and yes, it is pointless (unless in a future book JKR comes
up with some really corking explanation for why Snape had to say something
cruel to Hermione at that point -- which is possible, I suppose, but
unlikely).

But all this says is that Snape is not a nice person.  It doesn't prove that
he is a bad teacher.  There's no need to find a "pedagogical justification"
for this behaviour because it's not a pedagogical issue.  There have been
lots of nasty, unfair, verbally and even physically abusive teachers over
the course of history, who nonetheless succeeded in educating their pupils.
So, I stand by what I said before:  Snape is a teacher, and a capable one.
Even if his students hate him on a personal level, on a pedagogical level
they still learn from him.  And some of them learn a lot.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Apr 22 01:00:00 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:00:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about   Clocks
References: <20010421192757.12993.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> <3AE224DD.3594FACE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AE22D10.80524A3C@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17364

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Or maybe Colin's dad just didn't want to waste the money for
> a high-frill model for Colin..? Anyway, we've wondered about
> this, and I remember Harry's watch was mentioned, and I can't
> for the life of me remember if we ever reached a consensus
> or just decided we couldn't figure it out.

Well, if Colin's dad would not shell out for a fancy camera for
Colin, still less would the Dursleys present Harry with a digital
watch!  :)  His is probably a plain old wind-up variety for that
very reason.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From amarble at abs.net  Sun Apr 22 01:45:39 2001
From: amarble at abs.net (amarble at abs.net)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:45:39 -0000
Subject: Is Snape going to be Potions prof next year?
In-Reply-To: <9bsjqk+kss9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9btd43+2akl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17365

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> 
> > Voldemort is many things, 
> > but I don't think a foot is one of them.
> 
> *bangs herself in the head* Fool, not foot, lol. Sorry.

Who knows? You may have stumbled upon the Big Secret of Book Seven. 
All along, Voldemort was disguised as Dumbledore's right foot. Or 
perhaps Daniel Day Lewis' left foot. ;->

> By the way, I think it would be very weird if Snape *wasn't*
> Potions prof fifth year -- I just can't see Hogwarts without him.

Ain't that the truth! What would I do with my "Harry and Snape" 
bookmark then?




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Apr 22 01:39:44 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:39:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Art
References: <9bsrh7+hqbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE23660.AB66B824@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17366

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Lyda wrote:
> 
> > My favorite HP art (well, not including my own, which is very near
> > and dear to my heart, but not available on the Net, as I don't have
> a
> > scanner) has to be Tealin Raintree's. I think that some of the anime
> > stuff is really awesome, but it's not my personal favorite style. :)
> >
> > Tealin's site is down right now, but you can see some of the artwork
> > here, thanks to HP Galleries:
> >
> > http://www.hpgalleries.com/art1.htm
> 
> Thanks for the link, Lyda!  I liked a lot of these.  She (?) has a
> knack for nasty if you ask me--I liked her Vernon, Petunia, Crabbe and
> Goyle the best.
> 
> I never, ever contemplated Mr. Weasley with a beard.  He looks very
> professorial.

I liked them too -- they have =character!= -- but the
predilection for big noses doesn't work for some characters
(notably Fleur, who is, let's face it, supposed to be a
Knockout).  And I thought Petunia looked too young and tousled. 
(If it's a picture of a younger Petunia -- as a teenager, say --
I could believe it.)  I liked =all= of the Weasleys a lot,
especially the twins and Percy!  The expressions are perfect!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 02:43:15 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about  Clocks
In-Reply-To: <3AE224DD.3594FACE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010422024315.74176.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17367


--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Andrea wrote:
> 
> > Come to think of it, Hermione says that "all those
> > things Muggles use instead of magic" don't work on
> > Hogwarts grounds.  So a normal Muggle wristwatch would
> > probably break.  Hmm...okay, never mind.  THis post
> > had no purpose. <g>
> 
> No, this is a good thought. We had a discussion a while back about
> Colin Creevy's camera--how did *it* work on the grounds? Why didn't
> it's little electrical thingies mess up? His comments to Harry
> seemed to indicate that it's the developing
> potion, not the camera, that make the pictures move. The
> picture-taking mechanism would seem to be the same. So how come his
> camera worked?


It's possible that Hermione's use of the word "everything" was a
little sweeping.  Perhaps an item that didn't have to be recharged or
plugged in wouldn't work because there's no electricity in the castle
but a wind-up or battery watch and a hand-held camera would be fine.

We won't know for sure unless someone tries to use a cell phone.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From SHENmagic at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 02:45:23 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:45:23 EDT
Subject: Wolfsbane
Message-ID: <3a.140160c8.28139fc3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17368

 Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> writes:

>Subject: Wolsfbane - I don't understand

>why it is named Wolfsbane Potion -- if it is made out of Wolfsbane, why

>isn't it poisonous to werewolves, and if it is not made out of

>Wolfsbane, why isn't named Wolfsblessing Potion instead, being as how >it 
HELPS the poor werewolves.

Hi Rita and all! 
Been too busy with papers and clients again to have time enough to do more 
than skim--some great threads lately!  It's named WolfsBANE because it's a 
bane to the wolf in Lupin, helps Lupin's non-wolf/ human mind remain and 
subdues the powerful snarly wolfie monster-mind,  tho not the fuzzy four 
footed toothy wolfie bod. 

Aconite/Monkshood/Wolfsbane in its raw or concentrated form probably IS 
poisonous to werewolves, certainly so to humans, too.  But aconite potentized 
is used in homeopathy to help with burning pains, chills, anxiety and 
restless and  THE SPIRIT MEDICINE of aconite is deeply protective, calming 
and centering, (It's a research remedy at the Flower Essence Society, where I 
studied this summer)  I suspect it would be an ingredient in the Wolfsbane 
Potion. I gained a great degree of respect for Monkshood, having observed it 
growing, handling it live, and making mother stock for potions with it. 
(Technically they were called remedies, but pure and simply magically, we 
learned POTIONS!!!).
 .
Aylihael, who's rapidly regressing to Inner Child...
P.S.   Thinking of inner children... did I miss news about Penny's child 
within? I've had to miss a lot of posts...

"People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in,
their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within".
~Elizabeth K?bler-Ross



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 03:01:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:01:51 -0000
Subject: Godparents - Wolfsbane - Headmaster Who?
Message-ID: <9bthiv+mvlj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17369

Neil wrote:
> As to Penny's question, I think a godparent could be
> seen a proxy guardian,
> but grandparents, aunts and uncles (The Dursleys -
> gaaaah!!!) would probably
> be considered first, and there is no legal bond
> (unless specified). 

Andrea wrote:

>True, but I thought that Sirius *was* specified
>legally as Harry's guardian.  I don't have my copy of
>PoA with me right now, but Sirius says something like,
>"Your parents wanted you to live with me if anything
>happened to them."

Yep--what James and Lily meant by "godfather" is anyone's guess 
(religious significance?  or just a casual term for "all-around 
surrogate parent, giver of presents, and family friend"?), but that 
they meant Sirius to be Harry's legal guardian as well is crystal 
clear:

  "But I'm also--I don't know if anyone ever told you--I'm your 
godfather."
  "Yeah, I knew that," said Harry.
  "Well . . . your parents appointed me your guardian," said Sirius 
stiffly.  "If anything happened to them . . . " (PA 20)

I would just add that the way the passage reads implies that 
"godfather" does not necessarily equal "guardian"; being Harry's 
godfather and being appointed his guardian are two separate things.  
Which makes sense, since as listies have said, many people have 
multiple godparents, only one of whom is the appointed guardian; have 
godparents but a guardian who isn't a godparent; have no godparents 
but still have a guardian; etc., with endless permutations.

Andrea continued:

>Lily: "Can you imagine my sister's face if Harry
>showed up on her doorstep?"
>[Both dissolve in hysterical laughter]
>James, wiping away tears of laughter: "All right,
>let's ask Sirius instead."

Oh, now you've made me sad.  It's so tragic!  Ten years with a 
cupboard for a bedroom, when he was meant to have had nice Uncle 
Sirius instead.  Not to mention what became of nice Uncle Sirius.  I'm 
just glad James and Lily were spared the knowledge that their Harry 
was going to end up on Petunia's doorstep.

Kristin asked:
>  the Shrieking Shack sequence. Why does Lupin only
> transform when the full  moon came out from behind the
> clouds?  I always had the impression that a werewolf
> transformed no matter what, it didn't matter whether
> or not the moon was obscured. Is this a mistake on JKR's part

We know the Wolfsbane Potion has some effect, and Lupin has been 
taking it all week.  Maybe it weakened the moon's effect enough to 
keep him from transforming...

I admit this is an inadequate explanation, though, 'cause if this were 
the case, all he'd have to do to avoid transforming is stay inside 
after moonrise.  That's not such a bad handicap, to be forced to stay 
inside (and away from windows?) for several hours once a month.  
Clearly this isn't the case--he says clearly that the potion just 
keeps him from turning into a human-killer, but he still turns into "a 
harmless wolf" (I love the plug for wolves, who have an unearned 
reputation as bloodthirsty beasts).  I think it's a Flint (=a 
mistake), but I like the "Snape was trying out a new improvement on 
the potion" idea.

Rita wrote:

>If one of the requirements for being Headmaster/mistress of Hogwarts 
is
>having the initials A. D. then neither Snape nor McGonagall nor 
Potter
>is eligible for the job.

Are you nominating Amos Diggory?  

Jim:  in the sad event that we do need a new headmaster (perish the 
thought, but I'm afraid we will), let's not kick Lupin upstairs.  
There's nothing sadder than seeing a great teacher get turned into a 
full-time administrator!  I wonder:  does Dumbledore teach the 
occasional Advanced Transfiguration seminar?  Or maybe a special DADA 
practicum for 7th-years?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 His immediate reaction was that it would 
 be worth becoming a prefect just to be able 
 to use this bathroom.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 03:05:59 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:05:59 -0000
Subject: Headmaster Who?
In-Reply-To: <9bt4kf+hk6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bthqn+1r79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17370

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> If Professor McGonagall survives the war -- odds 50-50 at best -- 
then 
> she will be headmistress. If not, my post-war vote for headmaster 
is 
> Remus Lupin, one the best teachers we've seen at Hogwarts.

Here's to hoping Dumbldedore survives and remains the Headmaster.  If 
not, then the next in line and most deserving would be Professor 
McGonagall.  After that it would have to be Snape.  Neither Lupin nor 
Black have the time and experience that Snape does.

It would be rather interesting if Snape did end up at Durmstrang.  It 
would be a nice little rivalry!  

Koinonia  




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 03:07:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:07:27 -0000
Subject: Cover art questions
Message-ID: <9bthtf+giab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17371

Okeydokey, I have a few questions about the UK cover art (which I like 
pretty well, BTW).  I have the Raincoast eds., which I believe are 
identical to the Bloomsbury.

(1) D'you think the wolfish dog on the back of PoA is meant to be 
Remus or Sirius?  This is not at all how I picture the Grim; I picture 
an oversized Newfoundland, that is, even more oversized than your 
normal Newfoundland; Sirius-the-dog is described as "bear-like" (PA 
20).  The picture looks like a wolf, but Lupin-as-wolf doesn't figure 
into the story as much and seems like a less likely choice by the 
illustrator.  Also, it has very creepy eyes that seem more Grimlike 
than wolflike to me, though I admit I haven't seen a Grim for 
awhile...let's see, the last time was right before I fell off that 
cliff.

(2) What about the ghost on the back of GoF?  Too comical to be Nick, 
IMO, but too transparent to be Peeves.  I picture Nick as being very 
tall and melancholy-looking (John Cleese was a good pick!), but OTOH 
this guy does have a ruff.  I'm afraid it's meant to be Nick.  Could 
be someone else entirely, of course.

(3) Is the person on the back of PS supposed to be any actual 
character, and if so, for heaven's sake who?

Amy Z
who now, at long last, owns all of the books!  Yippee!

--------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
 "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 03:11:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:11:55 -0000
Subject: AD-headmasters
In-Reply-To: <9bt8g6+bmfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bti5r+105nv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17372

Jennifer wrote:

> Guess that leaves us with Amos Diggory and Aberforth Dumbledore. 

Mike Gray, are you listening?  This may be your big moment!  Hogwarts 
gets a new headmaster--and a mascot...

Amy Z




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 22 03:21:20 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:21:20 -0000
Subject: Lots of Snape Stuff
In-Reply-To: <041e01c0cacd$1709d280$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9btinj+ve0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17373

Magda wrote:

>>Snape's concept of authority is also very child-like: do this or 
you'll be punished; don't do that or you'll be expelled. The rolled-
up newspaper theory of rewards and punishments is what makes sense to 
him. He doesn't believe that you can maintain order by force of 
example (He thinks Dumbledore lets Harry get away with everything) or 
that you can appeal to a child's conscience (although he and Lupin 
say pretty much the same thing in PoA after Harry gets caught being 
off the grounds, he ensures that his warning has no effect by 
taunting Harry and getting his back up).<<

I wrote a big long spiel in the "HP Morally Questionable" thread 
about where Snape and other characters fall on the Kohlberg Moral 
Ladder. Allow me to bring that back here for a moment: 

~~For Snape, Filch, and Hermione, I think they are operating at the 
Conventional level. Snape and Hermione, I think, float between stage 
4 (conventional)and stage 5 (postconventional), while Filch I would 
place in simply stage 4. Anyhoo, at stage 4, actions are met and 
guided by the law: doing your duty, respecting and deferring to 
authority, upholding social order and the rules. Snape definitely 
fits here; he's obsessed with authority and maintaining order. Filch 
fits as well, as does Hermione. But Snape and Hermione also show 
characteristics for stage 5 Postconventionalism: they recognize the 
rights of others (Snape returning to Our Side so as to preserve and 
help others, rejecting the rules and order of the DEs so that general 
principles of society may be maintained), and they see the general 
rules accepted by society as binding but subject to change (Hermione 
and SPEW, she wants to change a view in society, and she decides to 
attempt to go about it). They have high morals in their principles, 
but they also have the rules which they feel must be enforced and 
obeyed. ~~

You argue that Snape actually fits into the Preconventional Stage (do 
this and get rewarded, don't do this or get punished). I sincerely 
doubt that; he has too much sense of principle and abstract morals, 
IMO. I think that any childlike behavior Snape has is simply the 
result of what his life-- past and present-- has cumulated into. One 
could even argue that his behavior is a kind of defense mechanism, 
that he's using long-term regression because he's had so much trauma 
in his life (that's one for you Freudians out there). He's a very 
bitter person, but I think he's also very emotional, and he tries to 
keep all those emotions under the surface. Not letting them interfere 
with his duties, his life. He has a great amount of self-control, but 
sometimes he snaps (Shrieking Shack). But, he has a great sense of 
the "rules", that everyone should follow the "rules". Order is a big 
part of his life, and he does *not* like it when someone defies that 
order (like Harry does).

Magda continues:

>>Can anyone even imagine Snape in a crowd of people outside of 
Hogwarts? Does he ever go anywhere there are large numbers of adults 
around? He didn't go to the Quidditch World Cup. Does he go down to 
Hogsmeade occasionally to kick back a Flaming Dragon's Blood (hold 
the cherry) at the Three Broomsticks?<<

I personally think that Snape doesn't venture out much because, 
whether you believe this or not, Snape is a "wanted man". I think 
that he's at Hogwarts in part so Dumbledore can keep an eye out for 
him, as protection. This has no doubt only increased his anti-social 
behavior. But, I do believe that Dumbledore keeps Snape around 
because he's probably one of the #1 persons on the DE hit list. There 
are other theories, as well, that I think go along with this, but 
this is the reason you don't see him hanging out in Hogsmeade.

Magda continues:

>>Does he flirt with Rosmerta? (As if!) Would she recognize it if he 
did? Personally I don't think that Snape has discovered girls yet; 
his blasting the rosebushes activities during the Yule dance is so 
wonderfully in character as is his touching belief that taking points 
away will deter them from finding other bushes.<<

Koinonia replied:

>>There were some comments about the rosebush scene with Snape and 
Karkaroff. Let's face it. Snape is a man and is capable of having 
loved just like anyone else. I believe Snape was in love at one time 
and the kids in the rosebushes just brings back painful memories of 
the one he has lost. If he can't be with the one he loved then they 
are not going to get an opportunity to get close to the one they 
like. So very like Snape!<<

I agree wholeheartedly with Koinonia; I think Snape was once in love, 
and that he lost his loved one due to his involvement with the DEs. 
The rosebush business *does* bring back horrible memories and guilt 
for him. I also think that Severus is... er... rather *frustrated* in 
some areas. ;) There are few (if any) teachers that are near his age 
at Hogwarts, and he doesn't venture into Hogmeade. Fourteen years of 
celibacy will get to a man, eventually, and seeing kids fooling 
around in rosebushes doesn't help much. :)

Lea wrote:

>>He?s a model of self-control even in extraordinary circumstances - 
that's as long as he's the one in control of the situation. 

"Give me a reason", he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I 
swear I will." 

That's Snape at his best, Snape at the height of his power, and I 
find nothing childish or uncontrolled in that (except Severus 
couldn't resist putting as much pathos into that phrase as he could). 
He gets a bit loud when he feels things are getting out of hand, 
though, like in the shrieking shack in PoA or with Moody in "the egg 
and the eye" in GoF. But that's hardly surprising.<<

Yes. Severus has these *very* deep, passionate emotions, but he also 
has this extreme self-control with which he regulates and attempts to 
detach his emotions. Except when he snaps; then, it's all over, and 
the self control gets tossed aside. PoA describes him as "suddenly 
quite deranged". I think that about says it all; he suddenly, more or 
less, loses his right mind. :) 

Lea continues:

>>I on the contrary am convinced that he is at heart a *good* person, 
only it's buried so deep somewhere under the events and experiences 
in his past that he really will have trouble digging it up again. I'd 
even go as far as saying the only person we can be *sure* about not 
to go over to the dark side (apart from Harry, maybe) is Snape.<<

Absolutely. He *is* a good person, he has high principles, but he's 
also become so dependent on his sarcasm, his cruelty, his cold 
detachment from others. Bitterness and guilt has consumed him, he's 
become a shadow of what he used to be. The goodness he once had (and 
is still capable of regaining) is hidden underneath all the 
bitterness and hatred and self-loathing that has ingrained itself 
further into his personality.

Magda wrote:

>>I think we will find out that there isn't anything between Lucius 
and Snape but that Harry will continue to have his doubts about Snape 
based on this experience and his own mistrust of both men.<<

I have little idea what the relationship between Snape and Lucius 
was, but I am certain that they at least *knew* each other when Snape 
was a DE. I personally think that there is more to Snape and Lucius, 
and that Snape treats Lil Malfoy the way he does because of this.

Dinah wrote:

>>But he's also a Slytherin at heart. Ambition - someone brought up 
the lost Order of Merlin, and I think that he wasn't too upset about 
it, he just was upset to see that a murderer got away without 
punishment - is often linked to public recognition. That's the kind 
of pride and ambition the Malfoy's have, that even Ron has. Snape's 
ambition is to do things the right way and be successful at it. He 
probably is bitter about not getting the praise he deserves, but it 
is not his main concern.<< 

I think Snape has a combination of both of these ambitions. He longs 
for recognition (which he doesn't get) and that just adds to his 
irateness in PoA when he loses the O of M. But, as you mention, he 
also has this craving to be successful at what he does, and in doing 
something correctly or right. He's a perfectionist, really.

Catlady wrote:

>>Snape was unconscious during most of the great revelations in the 
Shrieking Shack: he never saw Scabbers turn into Pettigrew and 
Pettigrew escaped before Snape came to. Snape, although loathsome, 
was probably sincere when he told Fudge: "Black had bewitched them, I 
saw it immediately. A Confundus Charm, to judge by their behavior. 
They seemed to think there was a possibility he was innocent. They 
weren't responsible for their actions. On the other hand, their 
interference might have permitted Black to escape.... They obviously 
thought they were going to catch Black single-handed". At the end of 
PoA, Snape still believes that Sirius was the traitor and mass 
murderer and that Lupin was his ally. When does Snape find out 
different? <<

Yes; Snape honestly thinks that he was "saving" Harry, Hermione and 
Ron from Black and Lupin. He didn't want to hear what Black had to 
say, because he firmly believed that *he* was right, that Black was a 
ruthless murderer, that he'd Confounded the trio, etc. Snape finds 
out different when he realizes that Dumbledore trusts Sirius at the 
end of GoF. Dumbledore tells him the story, naturally, but he, I 
think, refuses to believe it until he actually feels that Mark burn, 
and Harry returns with his story. That is why he is able to shake 
hands with Sirius, because he grudgingly believes the truth now. Does 
he still hate Sirius though? Oh yes. He just believes in his 
innocence of the Potters' murders now, IMO.

Catlady continues:

>>I am confused. Is there any reason to think that Snape was at the 
DE meeting? Wouldn't his absence from the Triwizard audience have 
been noticed? Even if Snape wasn't "the one who has left us forever" 
or the coward or the loyal servant at Hogwarts, there were other 
spaces of absent Death Eaters in the circle.<<

Yeah, Rebecca points out that he in fact *could* have been at the DE 
meeting, but I doubt it. He wouldn't have just left Harry hanging 
there like that; he would have tried to do something, IMO. 

Catlady continues:

>>I agree, except I think that Lucius left Hogwarts at least slightly 
before Severus's time there, so the 'friendship' began when Severus 
left school and joined the adult world. <<

Friendship-- I'm unsure that it was a friendship, per se. More of a 
friendly working relationship. I doubt that Severus met Lucius until 
he was initiated into the DEs. But, once there, he and Lucius 
probably worked together on raids or what-not. Perhaps Lucius was 
even a kind of "mentor" for him, teaching him the ways of the DEs. 
(I've seen this done in fanfic a lot.) But I think they *definitely* 
knew each other. And I think they knew each other well enough for 
Snape to take precautions by being smarmy to Lil Malfoy. 

Koinonia wrote:

>>After PoS, I would assume that Voldemort knows Snape has left him 
forever. Voldemort had Quirrell and then BC Jr on his side, working 
at Hogwarts. As far as we know Voldemort never attempted to make 
contact with Snape after finding out Snape was at Hogwarts. Voldemort 
dearly wants to have someone on the inside. If he thought Snape was 
just a coward he would have attempted to contact him. Plus I believe 
there are things that Voldemort knows about Snape that we don't know 
yet which would leave V. to believe Snape has left him forever. 
Though I don't think Snape went back to Voldemort that night, I do 
believe it is possible.<<

Good points. I think Voldemort definitely suspects Snape as having 
left him forever. The question is whether Snape, *if* he returned as 
a spy, could convince V. that he is "back" to the Dark Ways. Sirius 
says that Snape is "certainly clever and cunning", enough to keep 
himself out of trouble. I think he would also be clever and cunning 
enough to fool Voldemort again, at least for a little while.

Rebecca wrote:

>>Snape is most likely the one V. believes has left him forever. 
However, note that V. says "I believe has left me," not simply "who 
has left me". That "I believe" is quite significant, because it shows 
that V. is not actually *certain* that Snape has left him forever, 
only that it appears to him that this is most likely the case. As 
such, there is still room for Snape, if he is quick-thinking enough 
to come up with a really super alibi, to come back. And given Snape's 
airtight reputation in front of everyone at Hogwarts as a nasty, 
spiteful, Gryffindor-hating, Slytherin-favouring, Harry Potter-
persecuting type, I really don't think it would be impossible for him 
to work his way back into the DE's.<<

Yup. Those are my thoughts exactly. His demeanor and his intelligence 
are certainly well enough to help him make his way back to the fold 
of the Death Eaters. 

Stacy wrote:

>>Is Snape going to be Potions professor next year? If he's with 
Voldemort, he can't work for Dumbledore -- or would Voldemort try and 
plant Snape at Hogwarts like he planted "Moody," to keep an eye on 
Harry and track his movements, when in fact Snape would actually be 
protecting Harry along with Dumbledore. I don't know. I think 
Dumbledore is assuming a lot if he has in fact asked Snape to return 
to the Death Eaters. Voldemort is many things, but I don't think a 
foot is one of them.<<

I think that *if* he managed to fool Voldemort and return as spy, 
that Voldemort would definitely have him as a connection at Hogwarts. 
But, as you mentioned, Snape would actually be the double-agent, 
protecting Harry in reality. I don't think that Dumbledore really 
expects Snape to succeed, if he has him return to Voldie. Dumbledore 
gives Snape the *option* of taking on the task that he asks him to do 
(whatever it actually is) and Snape says he is "prepared". I don't 
think Dumbledore is forcing anything on him, and I don't think he 
expects much out of it, but it is something that he has to at least 
try. If Snape is willing.

All for now. I'm sure I'll find something else to reply to... :)

Lyda





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 22 03:27:00 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:27:00 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <9bsrh7+hqbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9btj24+lvjl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17374

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the link, Lyda!  I liked a lot of these.  She (?) has a 
> knack for nasty if you ask me--I liked her Vernon, Petunia, Crabbe 
> and Goyle the best.
> 
> I never, ever contemplated Mr. Weasley with a beard.  He looks very 
> professorial.
> 
> Amy Z

I think Mr. and Mrs. Weasley are my least favorite of her renditions. 
(I think Tealin Raintree is a "she" although I'm not positive). My 
favorite of the drawings are Percy Weasley, Harry (though not that 
pic that's on the HP Galleries site), Lupin, and Snape, (although I 
don't like the bearded-Snape look, I do like his overall look of 
nastiness.)

Lyda




From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Apr 22 03:23:33 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:23:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP Art
References: <9bsrh7+hqbi@eGroups.com> <3AE23660.AB66B824@erols.com>
Message-ID: <046b01c0cadd$88931e60$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17375

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I liked them too -- they have =character!= -- but the predilection for big
noses doesn't work for some characters ... I liked =all= of the Weasleys a
lot,
especially the twins and Percy!  The expressions are perfect! <

Best of all, Percy looks deliciously like Peter Davison.  Sign me up for the
Percy fan club!

Seriously, I like Tealin's art, too.  Although I agree with you about
Fleur's nose, and with Amy about the oddness of Arthur Weasley's beard.

But what I want to know is, why don't any of these gorgeously talented
artists draw Mad-Eye Moody?  I've only seen a couple of pictures of Mad-Eye
so far, and they were muddy and dark and didn't really capture my idea of
him at all.  I adore Mad-Eye -- yes, I know we haven't actually gotten to
know the *real* Moody, but Crouch's impersonation of him had to be bang-on
or he'd have been spotted, and besides JKR did say in an interview that the
real Moody was "even cooler" than the false one.

So, there's a challenge for all you artists out there -- draw me a good
Alastor Moody!
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Apr 22 03:37:11 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:37:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cover art questions
References: <9bthtf+giab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <046c01c0cadd$89a8d420$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17376

> (1) D'you think the wolfish dog on the back of PoA is meant to be
> Remus or Sirius?

I assumed it was Sirius / the Grim.  You're right about the book description
of Sirius's animagus form as "bear-like", but I don't blame the illustrator
for getting it wrong, because I had a more wolflike idea of Sirius in my own
mind as well.

> (2) What about the ghost on the back of GoF?  Too comical to be Nick,
> IMO, but too transparent to be Peeves.

Not the Friar, I suppose, with that ruff.  Nor Sir Cadogan, since the armour
is missing (and anyway it's the wrong book for him).  I'm afraid it's meant
to be Nick, too.  Can you believe I never thought about it before?  I had a
mental label on it as "Generic Ghost".

> (3) Is the person on the back of PS supposed to be any actual
> character, and if so, for heaven's sake who?

Now that one I can tell you with a certainty.  The illustrator never got to
read the book.  (And yes, this does happen a lot.  My favorite example is an
80's fantasy novel called CASTLE KIDNAPPED, which features a large blue
humanoid turtle on the cover.  The folks on the old FidoNet SF echo used to
call this the Frigging Blue Turtleoid, or FBT for short, in mingled
amusement and derision -- because there is absolutely no such creature to be
found *anywhere* in the novel.  I have no idea what the publishers were
thinking when they bought this particular piece of art, other than "We've
gotta have a cover and this might as well be it.")

Depending on the amount of information the PS illustrator was given (and it
can't have been much), this figure may be meant to be Dumbledore.  Minor
details such as a character's age and the colour of his hair often escape
the notice of those supplying information to illustrators.  (And sometimes
they escape the notice of the illustrators themselves, even if they have
read the book:  witness the number of anime pictures of Lee Jordan with
short blond hair, for instance.  I can only think that there is no Japanese
word for "dreadlocks".)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 22 03:34:57 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:34:57 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <3AE23660.AB66B824@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9btjh1+u057@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17377

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> I liked them too -- they have =character!= -- but the
> predilection for big noses doesn't work for some characters
> (notably Fleur, who is, let's face it, supposed to be a
> Knockout).  And I thought Petunia looked too young and tousled. 
> (If it's a picture of a younger Petunia -- as a teenager, say --
> I could believe it.)  I liked =all= of the Weasleys a lot,
> especially the twins and Percy!  The expressions are perfect!

Yes, I'd forgotten about Fleur, I didn't really like that particualr 
sketch much either. On Tealin's site, there's actually a little 
explanation that Petunia didn't come out the way she was supposed to, 
so even tha artist acknowledged that it wasn't quite right. 
Definitely loved the Weasley kids, though; that one of Percy has to 
be my fav! :)

Lyda




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 22 03:39:52 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:39:52 -0000
Subject: HP Art
In-Reply-To: <046b01c0cadd$88931e60$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9btjq8+m420@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17378

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:

>>But what I want to know is, why don't any of these gorgeously 
talented artists draw Mad-Eye Moody?  I've only seen a couple of 
pictures of Mad-Eye so far, and they were muddy and dark and didn't 
really capture my idea of him at all.<<

I've seen only one delightful pic of Moody before; I'll try to track 
it down for you. It wasn't my idea of him, but it was a good pic 
nonetheless, IMO, and it has a coloration on the hair that was just 
superb... but anyway, I'll see if I can remember where I saw it. :)

Lyda 





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 22 05:18:17 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 05:18:17 -0000
Subject: Moody Pic (was HP Art)
In-Reply-To: <9btjq8+m420@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9btpip+d8ji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17379

OK, I've found that Mad-Eye pic I was talking about. This is the only 
Moody pic I've ever seen that I actually considered pretty decent. I 
like the haira lot. But it's not quite my envisionment of him. Still, 
it's nice, and worth a look:

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/e/l/ellie/moody.jpg.html

Have you seen it before Rebecca? 

Lyda






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 22:30:29 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:30:29 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1057EjQxzmWec00011559@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17380

Wicky wrote:
>
>I was just rereading GoF a few days ago, and I noticed how much emphasis V
>puts on loyalty. Then I thought about what Hagrid said in SS: There isn't a
>wizard that's gone bad that hasn't been in Slytherin. (not exact quote, but
>you get the picture). In  my twisted little mind, that's about to change in
>future books or has already happened, but Hagrid didn't know it. As all the
>names of the DE aren't known, some could be Hufflepuff. Their main
>characteristic is loyalty when they're being sorted. Any thoughts/
>correction/ questions?

Surely anyone has the potential to "go bad" if they *want* to, and 
characteristics such as loyalty, intelligence, courage etc can be used to 
good or evil effect.  But I think it's a bit unfair to the poor Huffs to 
suggest they make better DEs than anyone else.<g> I've never been happy with 
the idea that Slytherin=evil=Slytherin, and I hope JKR *is* going to upset 
that as the story unfolds.  Otherwise you could just move Slytherin's HQ to 
Azbakan and save yourself a lot of trouble.  I assume she is, after all, as 
Dumbledore says, it's our choices that make us who we are, and people don't 
choose their houses.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 20 11:39:44 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:39:44 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Everything you've always wanted to know about Socks
Message-ID: <LAW2-F142HGNZ4mF1IT0000f671@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17381

John Walton wrote:


>
>Well, Morag, we've never had *this* particular discussion before ::big
>grin::
Yeah, well *g* I'm not making any claims for originality here, I just wanted 
to say some stuff.
>You make some really interesting points -- I particularly thought of
>the sock as resembling the hum-drum of daily life ("What's that dear?
>Another odd sock?") of which Harry has been deprived during his stay with
>the Dursleys, and for which (IMHO) he yearns. Ergo why Molly Weasley washes
>his socks, Dobby (the height of domestic servitude) only gets one when he's
>due to be freed, etc.
>
>Just some thoughts.

I agree about the hum-drum thing.  There's a point where, at the Burrow, Ron 
tips Harry's stuff onto the bed.  There's schoolbooks, money and socks.  
Nothing exciting (to a wizard, that is - I'd love an hour in Flourish and 
Blotts! :) ), but all essential.
>
>--John
>____________________________________________
>
>"One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."
>-'Mick Travers', Malcolm McDowell's character in "If..." (1968)
>
>John Walton -- john at walton.to
>____________________________________________
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 06:48:13 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:48:13 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <49.a446518.2813d8ad@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17382

Well, I was just thinking that all of the houses have a characteristic that 
gives them DE potential. Gryffindor: Bravery. You would have to be brave to 
murder someone, but that could also be considered cowardice... Ravenclaw: 
Smart. They could think of very evil things that would make the reciever of 
the deed dead or as good as dead. Hufflepuff: Very loyal. They would rather 
die than leave the one that they promised their allegiance to. Slytherin: 
Cunning. About the same as Ravenclaw.
So they all have evil potential and characteristics that would make them all 
good little DE! LOL. I was just thinking about Hufflepuff more than any when 
I wrote the first post. Just looking at the houses' characteristics in an 
unbiased way, I'd say that the most likely to be evil would be Hufflepuff. 
That's just my opinion though. Any additions/thoughts/ arguments....
Wicky

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 22 07:58:45 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:58:45 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godparents... 
References: <9bthiv+mvlj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e601c0cb02$2329f7e0$6a3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17383

I said:

"As to Penny's question, I think a godparent could be seen a proxy guardian,
but grandparents, aunts and uncles (The Dursleys -
gaaaah!!!) would probably be considered first, and there is no legal bond
(unless specified)."

ANDREA:

<<True, but I thought that Sirius *was* specified legally as Harry's
guardian.  I don't have my copy of PoA with me right now, but Sirius says
something like, "Your parents wanted you to live with me if anything
happened to them.">>

AMY Z:

<<Yep--what James and Lily meant by "godfather" is anyone's guess
(religious significance?  or just a casual term for "all-around
 surrogate parent, giver of presents, and family friend"?), but that  they
meant Sirius to be Harry's legal guardian as well is crystal
 clear :

"But I'm also--I don't know if anyone ever told you--I'm your godfather."
"Yeah, I knew that," said Harry.
 "Well . . . your parents appointed me your guardian," said Sirius stiffly.
"If anything happened to them . . . " (PA 20)>>

****In response to Andrea, perhaps I should clarify that I was responding to
Penny's question about godparents in general terms.  I wasn't suggesting
that James and Lily might have considered the Dursleys (my reference to them
was implying "fat chance of them being appointed godparents").  I imagine
Sirius was their first choice...

Thanks for the quote, Amy.  I agree with your interpretation, that godfather
and guardian aren't necessarily the same thing here.  I do think godfather,
in this context, is not meant as a religious guide, and that the Potters
perhaps wished to give their close friend this somewhat honorary role as a
means of recognition that he was closer to them than their real relatives.
Giving him the status of godfather would also lessen the possibility of any
challenge to his potential guardianship of Harry, so the two things are, I
think, connected.

I guess if someone is "appointed" a guardian that does indicate a legal bond
(lawyers may correct me), but we don't know too much about wizarding law.
Perhaps it was one of those 'our word is our bond' situations with no legal
paperwork involved?  After all, he doesn't say he was appointed Harry's
"legal guardian" (IIRC).  This is me being pedantic, I think :-)


MORAG:

<<As I've said before, I think JKR studiously avoids religion in the books.
But the whole godfather thing has a magic/folklore antecedent.  <snip>  I
think it's Hagrid who is the Fairy Godmother - he has a very maternal nature
<snip> This is just an observation, not a criticism, but I think one reason
HP is so popular (apart from being wonderful, that is) is this
masculinisation of female archetypes. >>

****I  think you're right about JKR's avoidance of religion.  She does let
in references to things associated with Christianity, from a secular
viewpoint, but that is fairly typical of much of the British population.
Concepts such as 'godparents' and 'Christmas' are not presented in their
religious meaning, IMO, because it is possible to strip them of their
origins and leave only the 'comforting tradition' aspect.  British people of
other religions celebrate Christmas as a festival period, whilst observing
their own religious days, and JKR would be aware that references to
Christmas, for example, would not necessarily be alienating to people of
other religions.

I loved your point on the folklore origins of fairy godparents, and I think
you're absolutely right about Hagrid.  Sirius seems to be a Muggle-style
godfather to Hagrid's Magical-style godmother...

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





















From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 22 08:14:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:14:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cover art questions
References: <9bthtf+giab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011301c0cb04$4c1c3a80$6a3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17384

Amy asked about the UK cover art:

<<(3) Is the person on the back of PS supposed to be any actual character,
and if so, for heaven's sake who?>>

We had quite a debate about this issue once, because the original artwork
featured an unidentifiable magical man with short brown hair, carrying a
book with a pentacle on it.  My view was that it was meant to be Nicolas
Flamel, but we were, to be honest, puzzled by it.

I wrote to Bloomsbury and they wrote back, as follows:

"Now have the answer for you: your third surmise was correct, ie it was a
generic wizarding character who was later changed to the identifiable
Dumbledore."

The picture was altered to one of Dumbledore around the tenth UK printing,
IIRC.  I'm not sure which version of PS you have, but if it's an early
edition, you may have the generic figure.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sun Apr 22 09:10:39 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:10:39 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cover art questions
In-Reply-To: <011301c0cb04$4c1c3a80$6a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEJGDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17385

Amy asked about the UK cover art:

<<(3) Is the person on the back of PS supposed to be any actual character,
and if so, for heaven's sake who?>>

And Neil replied with:
<<<We had quite a debate about this issue once, because the original
artwork
featured an unidentifiable magical man with short brown hair, carrying a
book with a pentacle on it.  My view was that it was meant to be Nicolas
Flamel, but we were, to be honest, puzzled by it.>>>

This picture is viewable at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Miscellaneous%20Graphics/
Book-related%20Graphics/e4ff4cba.jpg
The later one I have no link for, but if I find one I will post it for
comparison.


Simon




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 09:10:23 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:10:23 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating (most of the way) to Hogwarts
References: <041d01c0cacd$16173520$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <003301c0cb0c$1165bc60$5e2907d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17386

> Thanks to Hermione, it's been stated and reinforced a hundred times that
you
> can't Apparate into Hogwarts, or the grounds thereof.  But do the Hogwarts
> grounds include the Forbidden Forest, or not?
> Rebecca J. Bohner

I'm not sure about this, so bear with me, please. But if apparating near
Hogwarts isn't possible, how did Crouch snr. end up in the FF at night? And
it would be highly uncomfortable for short-time visitors if they had to use
a broomstick everytime. I see some kind of apparating-booth or -elevator
cell standing near the FF, maybe a bit away from Hagrid's house.

Or at least in Hogsmeade. I don't think the people living in Hogsmeade would
be too happy if they couldn't apparate - things would get complicated for
them.

This is another point how Snape could've been at the Rebirthing Party - with
a bit of hurry he might have been fast enough to make it back in time. And
for being/not being at the last task - in all the hell that pronbably broke
loose when they noticed that Harry and Cedric were gone nobody missed
Severus, they were to preoccupied.

I am *not* saying he was there, just toying with the idea.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Shoot for the moon.
Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

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From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sun Apr 22 10:05:09 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:05:09 +0100
Subject: Draco as Student
In-Reply-To: <3AE1AEE3.28227F3A@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEJIDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17387

Rhysenn wrote:

> 1) Lucius' preoccupation with Draco's grades - saying that he was
> appalled that Hermione had beaten Draco in every paper (paraphrased,
> don't have my copy of CoS with me). It's the classic sort of parental
> yardstick, where the subject of school grades keep being rehashed as a
> measure of a child's success. And note that he *only* mentions
> Hermione (who topped the level) - not Harry or Ron or anyone else -
> which may mean that Herm must be one of the very few people ranking
> above Draco in grades.


I got the impression that Lucius was comparing Draco to Hermione not
because she was the only muggle born who did better than him but rather
that he knew that mentioning her would have the biggest effect on Draco. I
would guess at some stage Draco has mentioned Hermione to his father, in a
similar vain to the comment he makes in the dark arts shop ('all the
teachers favour her' or words to that effect). I would guess that Draco has
little to do with the other muggle born students. They share many lessons
with the Gryffindors' and so it is likely that of all the muggle born in
his year he spends most time with Hermione.

In the passage in question, CoS chapter 4, it is Draco that mentions
Hermione first. He brings Hermione's name into the conversation and Lucius
then hits back about her muggle born status and how Draco should be ashamed
at being beaten by her.

Also to be considered is that she hanged around with Potty. She is there at
almost all of the confrontations that the Draco and Harry have.


 Penny: <<<I'm convinced Draco is above-average at least, and I can buy the
notion that he's Top Ten material.  There's enough evidence of that for me
to believe it could be true.  I don't see much counter evidence that
strongly enough suggests the opposite.>>>

Well of course this is affected by year size. I still remain convinced of a
small year size, probably of around 50 people. If so then I am certain he
is top ten, but I would also think that Potty and the Weasel are there, or
there abouts, as well. If we go with the 150 years size (corresponding to
roughly 1000 school size) then things are less clear. He is definitely
fairly able, but I see no evidence to place him any higher than Harry and
Ron. In fact I would go as far as to say that all three are similarly
academically gifted.



Simon
--
"I was expecting Armageddon and felt cheated and disappointed when I didn't
get it" - Simon Branford, in a post to HPforGU-OTChatter
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter), concerning Philip
Pullman's The Amber Spyglass
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 11:14:52 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:14:52 -0000
Subject: Cover art questions
In-Reply-To: <011301c0cb04$4c1c3a80$6a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9buefc+5c3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17388

Neil wrote:

> the original 
artwork
> featured an unidentifiable magical man with short brown hair, 
carrying a
> book with a pentacle on it. 

Ayup (translation: "Yes" in Maine), that's the guy.  He looks a lot 
like the way I picture Willy Wonka, though too tall (another piece of 
evidence that one =can= make oneself impervious to movies--Gene Wilder 
has had zero impact on that mental image).

> I wrote to Bloomsbury

Oh my.  A truly towering obsessive, whose shoes I am not worthy to 
lick.

> The picture was altered to one of Dumbledore around the tenth UK 
printing,
> IIRC.  I'm not sure which version of PS you have, but if it's an 
early
> edition, you may have the generic figure.

There appears to be little correlation between when one gets the book 
& what edition/printing one ends up with.  I got this PS three weeks 
ago--but there's no knowing how long it had been sitting in the 
bookshop.  I just thought to check the wand order in my even- 
more-recently-acquired GF, and it's the uncorrected version.  If I'm 
reading the codes correctly, my GF is the 4th Raincoast printing and 
my PS is the 10th Raincoast paperback printing.

I hope someone scans the Dumbledore in--I'd love to see it!

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
 "This is the weirdest thing we've ever
 done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sun Apr 22 11:23:17 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:23:17 -0000
Subject: Cover art questions
In-Reply-To: <046c01c0cadd$89a8d420$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9buev5+n5ur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:


> witness the number of anime pictures of Lee Jordan with
> short blond hair, for instance.  I can only think that there is no 
Japanese
> word for "dreadlocks".)
> --

I've got the Japanese version of PS and Lee's dreadlocks are 
translated as "a woven, crimped hairdo". The kanji for "crimped" can 
also be read as "shortened", so that *might* account for anime Lee 
having short hair. 

I don't know where the "blonde" comes from, but perhaps this is 
artistic license. Only PS and CoS have been translated into Japanese 
so far, and I can't remember Lee's hair colour being mentioned in 
either.

Incidentally, the Japanese translations are a one-woman job (Yuko 
Matsuoka) and are taking *ages*. I read somewhere that the translator 
makes trips to England to find out for herself *exactly* what things 
like "sherbert lemons" and "knickerbocker glory" are before she 
finishes the translation. So that means the Japanese should get 
Goblet of Fire around 2010! ;-)

Gaynor




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 03:06:56 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:06:56 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Headmaster Who?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F50Ogl4rhYQYx30001243c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17390

Jim wrote:

>If Professor McGonagall survives the war -- odds 50-50 at best -- then
>she will be headmistress. If not, my post-war vote for headmaster is
>Remus Lupin, one the best teachers we've seen at Hogwarts.

MacGonagall for me!  I think she will survive - she's a tough old bird.  And 
she must be next in line - she's even got what seems to be the key job for 
aspiring Heads.  I think Lupin (once he got that little recurring 
superfluous hair problem sorted) would be an excellent Headmaster but I'd 
rather see him back teaching class.

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From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sun Apr 22 11:41:19 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:41:19 -0000
Subject: Japanese summary of PS
Message-ID: <9bug0v+294j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17391

I just found this summary of PS on the website of the Japanese 
publisher of the books:

"That common street corner and some evenings that it goes to where in 
the London suburb are wonderful happens. Then, the baby with the 
injury which made the form of the lightning to be an amount is put 
with the shave before the house in the one eaves. It is magic 
messenger and VOLDEMORT of the dark to deprive the male child only of 
producing, of parents. The child and Harry Potter meet the birthday 
of 11-year-old without also knowing what, though it is fostered to 
uncle and aunt of common worldly-minded person, and though the first 
cousin of the same age torments it. In the birthday, the letter 
suddenly reaches in Harry. It was entrance into school license to the 
magic school. The train of the magic school go comes out of "9 and 
3/4 line" of the King's cross station. It is a mystery on dream and 
adventure, friendship and background of the self to await Harry. Why 
is Harry more famous, as they do not know in the magic field, ? why 
the injury of the amount is, ? the force of the magic of Harry that 
it was not noticed even in the self is drawn one after another. The 
then, confrontation of the fate with evil magic messenger VOLDEMORT."


The Japanese translations of the books are much better this, 
fortunately!

Gaynor






From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 22 13:44:28 2001
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:44:28 -0000
Subject: Cover art questions
In-Reply-To: <011301c0cb04$4c1c3a80$6a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9bun7s+okdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17392

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> "Now have the answer for you: your third surmise was correct, ie it 
was a
> generic wizarding character who was later changed to the 
identifiable
> Dumbledore."
> 
> The picture was altered to one of Dumbledore around the tenth UK 
printing,
> IIRC.  I'm not sure which version of PS you have, but if it's an 
early

Ms Rowling was asked about this drawing at a reading I attended.  She 
told us that at one of her early readings the artist had come along 
too and when this question was asked from the audience she had asked 
him to answer.  The reply was, "Oh it's my dad!"  

Pam




From manchisco at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 15:11:24 2001
From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:11:24 -0000
Subject: Evil Percy?
Message-ID: <9busas+p7bu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17393

My friends and I have been discussing the possibility of Percy 
Weasley going over to the Dark Side.  Impossible?  Not when you think 
about it.  He's obviously very keen for power, and enjoys having 
authority over others, as we have seen from his persistent 'Excuse 
me, I'm a Prefect'.  He is also seen to be reading a book 
called 'Prefects who Gained Power'.

I don't have a copy with me right now, but I think it's in Book 4 
that Ron says something like:

'I reckon Percy'd do anything to succeed, even if it meant turning in 
his own family.'

Could this be a glimpse into the future?

I don't think Percy would decide of his own accord to turn to the 
Dark Side, but I can see him being tricked or tempted over.  After 
all, he carried on following the orders 'Mr. Crouch' sent to him and 
didn't seem the slightest bit worried that he hadn't seen his boss 
for weeks.  Other people were suspicious of this, but Percy refused 
to even question the matter.  I think if Percy were given orders he'd 
follow them, and this is why I think he's more likely to be tempted 
than any other character.

I know that Percy might seem to be too much of a 'goody two-shoes', 
but then again wasn't Tom Riddle, now the Dark Lord whom everyone 
fears, also Head Boy and 'model student'?  Is it really so unlikely 
that Percy will follow suit?

Anyway, just something for you all to consider.  I'm new to this 
group by the way, so hello everyone!  I know this is meant to be 
for 'grown-ups' and I'm only 16, but I like to think I'm mature 
enough?  Maybe you adults will have some better ideas to add to 
this...

Mags






From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Apr 22 15:11:21 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:11:21 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <3AE10906.5DEFD262@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKKEKACDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17394

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Catlady [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Quidditch & More -Snape - Karkaroff -
> House Elves - Wizarding Religion - Dementors

> But has anyone yet suggested that Draco reacted strongly not because of
> being a coward but because of having horrors in HIS past? He certainly
> has a father capable of providing them, either as abused child or simply
> as witness.

Interesting thought, I never looked at it from this angle. But it makes
sense. I can perfectly imagine him being an abused child, and that would
indeed make him react strongly to the dementors. I agree with whoever
said he wasn't a coward.

> Altho' the Dementors waking the repressed memories of horrors in their
> victim's minds doesn't sound like major depression to me. That they suck
> out all happiness and all hope and their victims feel unhappy and
> worthless and helpless and futile sounds like major depression, but
> remembering the horrors sounds more like PTSD.

Maybe it's both. You are right that remembering the horrors sounds
more like PTSD, another reason why Harry, Ginny, Neville and also
Sirius have such strong reactions. But I think they are capable of
triggering major depression in "normal" people who haven't been
traumatized just by sucking all happy thoughts out of them. And
that would cause major depression IMO.

> Magda wrote:
> > Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class
> > show > up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would
> > he see a Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?
> 
> Or himself? ... Magda, what a thought-provoking question.

I always thought he took off because he didn't want to watch 
how his least favorite student would perform during the lesson.
And also because he absolutely can't stand Lupin. I think he
avoids being in the same room with him whenever he can.

I don't know what Snape's boggart would be, maybe Voldemort
like Magda suggested. Although I can't think that he is really
afraid of V., I think it would be something more abstract like
Hermione's boggart. Maybe he would see Harry breaking every
rule he can think of. <g>

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Apr 22 16:33:33 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:33:33 -0000
Subject: Winkies & House Elves
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104141131020.14535-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <9bv14t+p60b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17395

Jen F wrote: 

The Winkies are the group enslaved by the Wicked Witch of the West in 
*The Wizard of Oz*, who are freed by Dorothy.  I don't have my copy 
of the book here, but I vaguely remember that they're different from 
the way they were portrayed in the movie -- are they more elflike?  
They are happy to be liberated,IIRC.  I think it is likely that 
Winky's name alludes to these people; do others agree?  Are there 
other Oz allusions?


The Winkie people in Oz were, IIRC, much like the Munchkins, but wore 
yellow and were in the west of Oz, opposite Munchkinland, which was, 
pre-Dorothy, controlled by the Wicked Witch of the East. And, like 
the Munchkins, the Winkies were liberated by the death of the 
Witch.   

I never made a connection between Winky and and the Winkies, but 
given JKR's many literary references, I wouldn't be surprised.


I have my own query about the house-elves, regarding to their names.  
Both Dobby and Winky have diminutized names--they both end in 'y'.  
Little kids learning language (at least in English) have a tendency 
to put "ee" sound at the end of words (horsie, doggie, mummy, daddy) 
because it is easier to say rather than final consonants.  Anyway, to 
my point.  Are all house-elves names similar? If so, is it another 
way that wizards consider them 'child-like' and keep them under 
control?    

Trina





From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 22 16:38:56 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:38:56 -0000
Subject: Evil Percy?
In-Reply-To: <9busas+p7bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bv1f0+sa73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17396

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mags" <manchisco at y...> wrote:
<snip some good arguments for evil Percy> 
> Anyway, just something for you all to consider.  I'm new to this 
> group by the way, so hello everyone!  I know this is meant to be 
> for 'grown-ups' and I'm only 16, but I like to think I'm mature 
> enough?   
> Mags

Hi! I'm only 16 too! If you search the archives using Evil Percy as a 
keyword, you should get lots of answers as this was discussed a 
couple of weeks back. If you'd been here then you could have joined 
in! I would discuss this with you, but others have done it before and 
probably much better than I could ever do ;) so I'll let you read 
what they wrote first.

Have fun, and I hope you find some answers :)

Sarah, who is *much* more of a Snape fan than a Percy one.






From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Apr 22 16:49:50 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:49:50 -0000
Subject: Plot holes filled?
In-Reply-To: <9b9ski+6qum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bv23e+t2sl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17397

eggplant wrote:

"It seems to me that Goblet Of Fire has a plot hole, why did 
Voldemort need Harry to win the Tri Wizard Tournament? Why couldn't 
Moody turn a door knob or one of Harry's books into a port key? 
Surely in the course of a year he could get Harry to touch something."

I had my own brilliant (IMO) theory as to why the cup was the 
portkey. See message 14038 for it.  

As to whether the spectators could see what was going on during the 
3rd task.  I rather think that they could.  They were on the 
Quidditch pitch, which has elevated seats.  

Trina 




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 16:50:17 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Snape going to be Potions prof next year?
In-Reply-To: <9btd43+2akl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010422165017.88802.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17398

--- amarble at abs.net wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y...
> wrote:
> > > Voldemort is many things, 
> > > but I don't think a foot is one of them.
> > 
> > *bangs herself in the head* Fool, not foot, lol.
> Sorry.
> 
> Who knows? You may have stumbled upon the Big Secret
> of Book Seven. 
> All along, Voldemort was disguised as Dumbledore's
> right foot. Or 
> perhaps Daniel Day Lewis' left foot. ;->

[gasp!] I think we've just discovered why Dumbledore
sees himself holding a pair of socks in the Mirror of
Erised.  He needs them to contain Voldemort!


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr 22 19:02:54 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:02:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Percy?
References: <9busas+p7bu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE32ADE.6481A6F8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17399

Hi --

Welcome Mags!  Like Sarah, I would suggest searching our Message
Archives for what people have had to say about Percy in the last couple
of weeks.  It was a recent topic as sort of spin-off of our recent Ron
discussions.  Harry is in the spotlight for the next week or perhaps a
bit longer.

I would actually search for just Percy though (rather than Evil Percy)
since some of us would *never* say Evil Percy in a message (Trina and
myself are card-carrying members of Percy Lovers Unite!).  There were
several messages from me and Trina on this topic (defending Percy) and
several messages from others that might be more in agreement with your
position.  :--)

Again, welcome --

Penny






From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr 22 19:10:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:10:14 -0500
Subject: Draco as Student
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEJIDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3AE32C96.CA3DE389@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17400

Hi --

Yeah .... the pregnant Moderator is still pregnant & not in labor yet.

Simon wrote:

> I got the impression that Lucius was comparing Draco to Hermione not
> because she was the only muggle born who did better than him but
> rather
> that he knew that mentioning her would have the biggest effect on
> Draco. I would guess at some stage Draco has mentioned Hermione to his
> father, in a similar vain to the comment he makes in the dark arts
> shop ('all the
> teachers favour her' or words to that effect). I would guess that
> Draco has little to do with the other muggle born students. They share
> many lessons with the Gryffindors' and so it is likely that of all the
> muggle born in his year he spends most time with Hermione.

Of course, we're not sure that Hermione is the only muggle-born
Gryffindor.  Someone has a good theory that Dean Thomas sounds
muggle-born given his preoccupation with soccer (and seeming lack of
knowledge about Quidditch).  Someone else though Lavender might also be
muggle-born.  Although, I do think you raise a good point here that
Draco may complain to his father about Hermione in the same vein that he
does Harry, which might make Lucius more apt to compare his grades to
her grades.

> In the passage in question, CoS chapter 4, it is Draco that mentions
> Hermione first. He brings Hermione's name into the conversation and
> Lucius then hits back about her muggle born status and how Draco
> should be ashamed at being beaten by her.

Good point Simon.  :--)  I do still think it would be odd for Lucius to
compare Draco to Hermione if Hermione were wildly out of his league, but
you do raise some good points.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Apr 22 19:16:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:16:40 -0500
Subject: Godparents...
References: <9bthiv+mvlj@eGroups.com> <00e601c0cb02$2329f7e0$6a3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <3AE32E18.98FD5A8F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17401

Hi --

Neil Ward wrote:

> ****I  think you're right about JKR's avoidance of religion.  She does
> let in references to things associated with Christianity, from a
> secular
> viewpoint, but that is fairly typical of much of the British
> population.
> Concepts such as 'godparents' and 'Christmas' are not presented in
> their
> religious meaning, IMO, because it is possible to strip them of their
> origins and leave only the 'comforting tradition' aspect.  British
> people of other religions celebrate Christmas as a festival period,
> whilst observing their own religious days, and JKR would be aware that
> references to Christmas, for example, would not necessarily be
> alienating to people of other religions.

Ah, finally.  This is what I really wanted to know.  Godparent in the UK
might not necessarily have the religious connotation that it more
typically has over here then?  I was thinking that "godfather" might be
more or less like the references to Christmas & Easter in the books --
something that has become more secular (and not automatically considered
religious) in the UK.  Amy's quoted passage makes it pretty clear that
Sirius was Harry's legal guardian (even though it doesn't say "legal")
-- the implication is pretty clear that he was to have guardianship in
the event of their deaths.  While I'm not discounting the possibility
that Sirius might have also been named a godfather to Harry in a
Christian christening ceremony, we don't know for sure what religious
traditions (if any) the wizarding community have.  So, my thought is
that JKR might just be making a general non-religious reference to the
term "godfather."

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hallieu at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 19:19:31 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:19:31 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape
Message-ID: <F155Gfwb34n4hdvGpv1000034d1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17402

Rita wrote >>I don't understand why it is named Wolfsbane Potion -- if it is 
made out of Wolfsbane, why isn't it poisonous to werewolves, and if it is 
not made out of Wolfsbane, why isn't named Wolfsblessing Potion instead, 
being as how it HELPS the poor werewolves.<<
Wolfsbane, because it banishes the wolf.  At least, that's what I've always 
assumed.
Hallie

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 19:34:11 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:34:11 
Subject: elf names (was Re: Winkies & House Elves)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F45GvnCjnZS08i000093e9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17403

Trina wrote:

>I have my own query about the house-elves, regarding to their names.
>Both Dobby and Winky have diminutized names--they both end in 'y'.
>Little kids learning language (at least in English) have a tendency
>to put "ee" sound at the end of words (horsie, doggie, mummy, daddy)
>because it is easier to say rather than final consonants.  Anyway, to
>my point.  Are all house-elves names similar? If so, is it another
>way that wizards consider them 'child-like' and keep them under
>control?

This struck me as well.  I doubt if it's a conscious policy, but it does 
recall the ladies who would re-name their housemaids with a "suitable" name 
if they had the temerity to have any unusual name, or one more common in the 
upper classes.  Perhaps elf-names are like pet names and grow out of what 
the children call them - they have an affectionate sound as well.  
Interesting in this context that Dobby refers to Ron as Harry's "Wheezy".  
Perhaps house-elves have quite different names among themselves.
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From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Sun Apr 22 19:59:17 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:59:17 -0000
Subject: Harry and Draco
Message-ID: <9bvd6l+pa44@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17404

Following on from the recent "is Draco brilliant" posts, I started 
thinking about his relationship with Harry. So at the beginning of 
the Philosopher's Stone in the train, this is the interaction:

"Is it true?" he said. "They're saying all down the train that Harry 
Potter's in this compartment. So it's you, is it?"

"Yes," said Harry. <snip>

"You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than 
others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong 
sort. I can help you there." He held out his hand to shake Harry's 
but Harry didn't take it. <snip>

"I'd be careful if I were you, Potter," he said slowly. "Unless 
you're a bit politer you'll go the same way as your parents. They 
didn't know what was good for them, either..."

And in the end of GoF, he tells Harry something about having warned 
him about which side to be on, but I don't remember his exact words. 
Now my question is why would Draco, and from his comment, he 
obviously *knows* what side the Potters were on, expect or even want 
Harry to be on his side, and to be his friend? I think that we'll 
find out more about this in the future but have any theories come 
about of this question?

I think it's a fair assumption on the part of the wizarding world 
that Harry probably wouldn't join the Dark Side. When the Dark Mark 
arises in the World Cup and the MoM officials surround Harry and are 
about to hex him, or something, and Arthur Weasley says to Crouch or 
Diggory or someone "Think about it! Would Harry Potter conjure up the 
Dark Mark?" So why would Draco, being as we've established, not a 
complete dunce, and knowing who Harry Potter is, seriously presume to 
draw him into his circle of friends - Potter, Malfoy, Crabbe and 
Goyle!! Does he think he can show Harry the light or something? If 
so, I don't think that makes him too people-smart. If this has come 
up before - please point me to the message number.. Thanks!!!




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 20:57:01 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:57:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Draco
In-Reply-To: <9bvd6l+pa44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010422205701.98506.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17405

> Now my question is why would Draco, and from his comment, he 
> obviously *knows* what side the Potters were on, expect or even
> want Harry to be on his side, and to be his friend?....
 
> So why would Draco, being as we've established, not a 
> complete dunce, and knowing who Harry Potter is, seriously presume
> to draw him into his circle of friends - Potter, Malfoy, Crabbe and

> Goyle!! Does he think he can show Harry the light or something? If 
> so, I don't think that makes him too people-smart. If this has come
> up before - please point me to the message number.. Thanks!!!

Harry Potter is very famous and a legend in the wizarding world;
enough attraction for Draco to want to be friends, as much as Draco
understands that word.  But he has to impress Harry in turn and so he
drags in all that "best families" stuff to show that he is someone
himself.  Probably he wants to acquire Harry as a member of his
circle.

Draco isn't very people-smart, as you say.  Even Lucius is smarter as
when he reminds Draco in Borgins shop that he should be making
friends with Harry; a piece of advice that Draco ignores (indirect
evidence to me that he doesn't fear his father).


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Apr 22 21:20:24 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 22 Apr 2001 21:20:24 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <987974424.54006.54357.ff@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17406


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /HP Yahoo Messenger Skin/Harry.zip 
  Uploaded by : leannsmarie at yahoo.com 
  Description : A Yahoo Messenger Skin with a Harry Potter Theme 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP%20Yahoo%20Messenger%20Skin/Harry.zip 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

leannsmarie at yahoo.com
 







From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 22 22:05:45 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:05:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Draco
References: <9bvd6l+pa44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011001c0cb78$61da89c0$190deda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17407

Hello,

> Following on from the recent "is Draco brilliant" posts, I started
> thinking about his relationship with Harry. So at the beginning of

You have to stop teasing us slashers this way <g>.  The first moment I saw
the words 'Draco,' 'Harry,' and 'relationship'....

> Now my question is why would Draco, and from his comment, he
> obviously *knows* what side the Potters were on, expect or even want
> Harry to be on his side, and to be his friend? I think that we'll

Well, they *were* eleven when they first met, and eleven year olds aren't
exactly known for their absolute brilliance.  Also, since Harry didn't know
much about the Wizarding world at that point, perhaps Draco was playing on
Harry not knowing which side Draco was on, or even what side Harry himself
was supposed to be on.  Or perhaps the potential glory of having HP as a
friend overrode his common sense.  I mean, what can he lose at that point,
after all?  It sounds like an all or nothing gamble.  In other words, I
don't think it's as stupid as it originally sounded.

Or, maybe Draco just liked Harry since the first moment he saw him.  I mean,
that little exchange in the robe shop, they obviously didn't know who each
other was.  Or, as we slashers say, love at first sight, lol.

little Alex




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 22 23:17:34 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:17:34 -0000
Subject: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKKEKACDAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9bvoqe+8hmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17408

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:

> I always thought he took off because he didn't want to watch 
> how his least favorite student would perform during the lesson.
> And also because he absolutely can't stand Lupin. I think he
> avoids being in the same room with him whenever he can.

Yes, that is what I thought too. I think that is what JKR MEANT us 
to think. It was very original of Magda to question it.
> 
> I don't know what Snape's boggart would be, maybe Voldemort
> like Magda suggested.

Himself being evil or being weak. That would have to be, as you said, 
a more abstract Boggart like Hermione's, rather than seeing himself 
as in a mirror... What would he SEE to indicate, for example, having 
gone back to the Dark Side?




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun Apr 22 23:27:19 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:27:19 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
Message-ID: <14.12f5f170.2814c2d7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17409

i can't find pictures, where are they?????
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 23:32:18 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:32:18 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
Message-ID: <LAW2-F11UuEhjJ8uT6S00000ced@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17410

Rita wrote
> > I always thought he took off because he didn't want to watch
> > how his least favorite student would perform during the lesson.
> > And also because he absolutely can't stand Lupin. I think he
> > avoids being in the same room with him whenever he can.
>
>Yes, that is what I thought too. I think that is what JKR MEANT us
>to think. It was very original of Magda to question it.
> >
> > I don't know what Snape's boggart would be, maybe Voldemort
> > like Magda suggested.
>
>Himself being evil or being weak. That would have to be, as you said,
>a more abstract Boggart like Hermione's, rather than seeing himself
>as in a mirror... What would he SEE to indicate, for example, having
>gone back to the Dark Side?
And what would he see in the Mirror of Erised?  Himself, wearing the Order 
of Merlin (First Class) and Harry, on bended knee, thanking him for showing 
him the error of his ways...?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 00:44:47 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:44:47 -0000
Subject: Harry and Draco
In-Reply-To: <9bvd6l+pa44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9bvttv+t9u4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17411

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
 So why would Draco, being as we've established, not a 
> complete dunce, and knowing who Harry Potter is, seriously presume 
to 
> draw him into his circle of friends - Potter, Malfoy, Crabbe and 
> Goyle!! Does he think he can show Harry the light or something?>

Hi!

I have also thought about this quite a bit, and the other posts 
already said much of what I thought about Draco's desire to befriend 
Harry, but I'll add a bit more.

It was mentioned that Draco really wanted to be friends with "the 
famous Harry Potter".  In GoF when Viktor Krum sits near Draco at the 
Slytherin table, Draco was looking very self-satisfied, as if Viktor 
was actually interested in Draco.  Draco is a spoiled boy who has been 
raised to think he is pretty darned special.  He seemed to think that 
Harry would have happy to associate with him.  Yes, eleven year olds 
are not too perceptive, but Draco was obviously raised to believe that 
some people are better than others.  Harry is known by many as the 
best.

My most obvious comment is how wildly jealous of Harry Draco is.  When 
Harry over hears Draco and dad talking in CoS, it is clear that Draco 
whines about Harry all the time.  He is jealous of Harry's talent at 
Quidditch, his friends, his fame...  It is if he consumed with Harry.  
Draco always finds an opportunity to approach Harry.  I wonder how 
Draco would respond if Harry extended the hand of friendship to him.  
Would he be eager to take it?  Jealousy stems from a desire to have 
what someone else has.  Harry seems to have quite a few things that 
Draco wants, but I wonder why.  Draco is the boy who has 
everything(?).

Any other thoughts on this would be much appreciated.  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Apr 23 02:05:17 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:05:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moody Pic (was HP Art)
References: <9btpip+d8ji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <059601c0cb99$f9dfc340$80bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17412

> OK, I've found that Mad-Eye pic I was talking about. This is the only
> Moody pic I've ever seen that I actually considered pretty decent. I
> like the haira lot. But it's not quite my envisionment of him. Still,
> it's nice, and worth a look:
>
> http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/e/l/ellie/moody.jpg.html
>
> Have you seen it before Rebecca?

No, I haven't -- thanks for the tip-off.  It's very good overall, only he's
far too young-looking and his hair should be grizzled, not brown.  Much as I
hate to admit it, the best drawing I've seen yet is the one in the US
edition of GoF.  But this runs a close second.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Mon Apr 23 02:28:25 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 02:28:25 -0000
Subject: Psychic link/power revisited
Message-ID: <9c0409+5ku5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17413

In message 14896, a. (ok, I admit right away that I'm a. :^) questioned 
the possibility that either Harry or Ron has some kind of psychic/
telepathic (other term) ability.  The examples I used were from the PoA 
when Snape catches Harry after his visit to Hogsmead - when Harry's 
"head" beats up Draco) and the scene in the Shrieking Shack when the 
Trio blasts Snape.  (I'll paste my arguments here so we don't have to 
go back and forth.)  

I wonder if Harry has some kind of "mind control" ability, perhaps also 
"inherited" from V. (as Parseltongue was).  I just got finished 
listening to GoF again, and my feeling got stronger -- except now I've 
narrowed it down to Harry as the power source.

Here's my argument:
For instance, in PoA (I don't have the book with me) after the 
encounter with Draco in Hogsmead (when invisi-Harry was roughing him up  
outside the Shrieking Shack), Harry runs back through the tunnel so 
that he can get back to Hogwarts before he gets caught outside.  Snape 
catches Harry in the hall and they go to Snape's office.  Snape makes 
Harry empty his pockets. Harry says Ron bought the contents for him.  
Ron rushes in and says, paraphrasing, "I bought the stuff for him."
> 1. How did Ron know Harry got caught?
> 2. How did he know they were in Snape's office?
> 3. How did he know Snape had made Harry empty his pockets?
> 4. How did he know Harry had said Ron bought the stuff (and not Hermione)?
> Seems to me that if he had been standing outside the door during the whole inquisition, he wouldn't have burst in "out of breath" as I remember it, to say the he'd gotten the stuff.
> Later, in the shrieking shack, when they all blast Snape - could it have been Ron or Harry unconciously (for some reason I can't spell that today - several typos and it still doesn't look right :) transmitted his intent to the other two, and caused them to have the same response?  I mean, I see Hermione disagreeing with Snape, and trying to reason with him, but I don't really see her facing down a professor with her wand and blasting his wand away.  Maybe that's just me.
> 
I think the link may have been there again, stronger in the compartment 
on the train in GoF when they all blasted Malfoy - either Ron or Harry 
decided to blast him, and transmitted the desire/direction to the rest 
of them, so once again they act as one.
> 
> Could that be something else Harry got from V. (besides snake-speech)?  V. was supposed to be really good at controlling people, wasn't he?

Maybe it's just coincidence, but there seems to be a LOT of coincidence 
of this nature:

GoF - Draco and Harry curse each other at "exactly the same time".
    - Harry and Cedric stun the spider at "exactly the same time".
    - Harry and V. utter their curses at "exactly the same time".
    - The Trio, Fred & George on the train at "exactly the sane time".
   
What made me think of this again is the scene in the graveyard.  When 
V. wants to make Harry bow, I don't think he uttered a curse (correct 
me if I'm wrong).  He ORDERED Harry to bow, and Harry felt is spine 
curve (paraphrased in a big way, but the tape player's being used right 
now :). I think V.'s got "mind control", and Harry has it as well.  I 
think that Harry's unknowingly transmitting commands (as in 
broadcasting his own intent and making the receivers take it as their 
own intent).

Someone else I shared this theory with also pointed out (in the CoS 
Snape's office argument) that Harry never asked Ron why he'd come to 
Snape's office and made that statement.  Why wouldn't Ron have assumed 
that Harry would just stay invisible until he got back to the Fat Lady 
- especially knowing that Draco was running to tell on him?

> Just another crackpot theory.  Any and all opinions welcome.
> a.
Sorry to bring this up again, but if I spend any more time thinking 
about it myself, my head will explode.  Anybody know where I can pick 
up a Pensieve relatively inexpensively?





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 23 02:47:38 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:47:38 -0700
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17414

Well, as I'm preparing a speech on the attempts to ban
Harry, I've reluctantly picked up _Harry Potter and the
Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick_ and started to read
it.  My intention was to scrawl into the book comments by
Harry, Ron and Hermione ('a la _FB_), but I'm finding it
impossible because long before this Harry, Ron and
Hermione would have thrown the book down the toilet
( Sixty points if it goes through Myrtle's left adenoid. :) ).

Just to give you an example, he claims that Harry's
actions in the Second Task were *not* courageous
but selfish.  (*Real* Christian courage would have been
if Snape or Malfoy or someone else Harry hates had
been down there and Harry had saved *them*.)

Beyond that he sites numerous examples of Harry's
lying, rule-breaking, and coveting thy neighbor's Veela,
and how he gets "rewarded" for his immoral behavior.
Later, he launches into a tirade against Wicca, Neopaganism,
and other "occult" practices and how Western Civilization
As We Know It is threatened by J.K. Rowling's promotion
of them.  (He sites incidents in the books and selective
editing of Rowling interview quotes to demonstrate her
"heathen" status.)

One thing maybe you can help me with: He concedes that
some Christian leaders think the persecution of Harry is
silly, but he says that any "expert" on the occult would
recognize what a threat the Harry books are to the
salvation of mankind.  My suspicion is that he
is engaging in "Argument by Definition" (i.e. he
defines an "expert" on the occult as one who sees
advocacy of it in the books), but can anyone here point to
any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
the Hogwarts universe?



                                                 -- Dave




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Apr 23 02:52:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:52:51 -0500
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AE39903.7E8914D2@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17415

Hi --

I was hoping someone would report in on whether this book was trash or
at least worth reading for an intellectual exercise.  Sounds like the
former from Dave's comments!  I'd been toying with ordering it (doesn't
it say something that the brick & mortar bookstores don't carry it
in-stock .... will only "special -order" it?  At least that's the case
in Houston, and I imagine that it's true elsewhere if true in Texas,
home of the Bible Belt).

Dave -- please write a review over on Amazon as the "good" reviews were
outweighing the "this is a load of garbage" reviews the last time I
checked.


> One thing maybe you can help me with: He concedes that
> some Christian leaders think the persecution of Harry is
> silly, but he says that any "expert" on the occult would
> recognize what a threat the Harry books are to the
> salvation of mankind.  My suspicion is that he
> is engaging in "Argument by Definition" (i.e. he
> defines an "expert" on the occult as one who sees
> advocacy of it in the books), but can anyone here point to
> any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
> intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
> the Hogwarts universe?

Have you checked out the articles on the HP Culture & Religion site?
Here's the URL:

http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_00.htm

This has a nice selection of articles that might be useful.  One that
comes to mind in particular is:

http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_016.htm
First Things Endorses HP (written by conservative Catholic theologian)

Peg Kerr has cited the above article before, and I concur with her that
it's really well-written, authoritative & a nice refutation of some of
the common religious criticism of the series.

There are other articles on that website that would help you, but I'd
start with that one!

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 04:03:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 04:03:40 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about   Clocks
In-Reply-To: <3AE22D10.80524A3C@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9c09is+oo0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17416

> Well, if Colin's dad would not shell out for a fancy camera for
> Colin, still less would the Dursleys present Harry with a digital
> watch!  :)  His is probably a plain old wind-up variety for that
> very reason.
> --Margaret Dean
********************
Since the only way that Harry has ever gotten anything as nice as a 
watch has been from Dudley's castoffs, my guess is that it was top-of-
the-line digital with a lit up dial and 57 other functions. Dudley 
probably broke it or tossed it and Harry retrieved it and/or fixed 
it.  
Doreen
********************




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 04:28:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 04:28:56 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <dc.5339d01.28133bce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c0b28+qotg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17417

<snip snip>
As all the 
> names of the DE aren't known, some could be Hufflepuff. Their main 
> characteristic is loyalty when they're being sorted. Any thoughts/ 
> correction/ questions?
> Wicky, 
**************
It was my impression that the DE were not all that loyal. The minute 
that Voldie was "defeated/weakened", they all tucked tail and ran 
back to the "other side" with excuses about being mesmerized or such 
nonsense. Wormtail went into 12 years of hiding. The minute that 
Karakoff found out V was back, he lit out of Hogwarts like a streak. 
I don't know how others measure loyalty, but I don't think I would 
want any of them watching my back. The only ones who remained loyal 
were named by V ... and that was a very few out of the group.
Doreen, tossing her two kernels of corn into the pot.
************** 




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 05:02:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:02:45 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow  ... Preposition use varies from country to country
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F64wVn20lbhsKd0001042d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c0d1l+n8vv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17418

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Doreen quoted:
> <snip>
> >In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're saying,
> >she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's
> >Hollow


 
 Agree it's a village - it never occurred to me it was anything else, 
but the above quote is a clincher.  People turn up "in" villages 
and "at" houses.
************************************
Steve Vander Ark must have missed this one or he would have beat me 
to the punch. 

I corrected a couple of sentences in Steve's Lexicon on the basis of 
my thinking that he had misused a preposition. 

I told Steve, "In the Lexicon, on such & such pages, you have 
typed, 'in the street' where it really should read, 'on the street'" 
Steve wrote back that he had, indeed, typed it that way. He then 
explained that this was the British way of saying it and that he had 
copied it in the British form. I, being the doubtful and ever 
analytical person that I am, immediately got down my British editions 
of SS and checked it out. I had to write a letter saying that he was 
right and I was wrong. So ... all this to get to the point that maybe 
in this instance, also, that we can not be so positive about the 
useage of the preposition, "in" the village. 

SS ch1 "Nothing like this man had ever been seen ON Privet Drive."
PS ch1 "Nothing like this man had ever been seen IN Privet Drive."

The "IN" Godric's Hollow line is the same in both books, but "in" 
does not always mean the same in UK as it does in US. I do not know 
where you are from. (sorry) I only know that the prepostion thing has 
me totally confused. I still say it could be either way... Godric's 
Hollow could be a house. :)

Doreen, who is going to bed .. in the bed? on the bed?
**************************





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 05:13:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:13:13 -0000
Subject: Draco's Marks
In-Reply-To: <9bsldb+46q3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c0dl9+alcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17419


<snip the Wolfsbane>
> I agree that the quote does point to Draco's being at least an 
> above-average student. (Although it doesn't follow that he is 
second 
> only to Hermione. There may be other students who got better 
grades, 
> but who are wizard-born).
> 
> 
> Naama
************************
I don't think Lucius would have cared if all the wizard born students 
had done better than his son. The thing that got under his skin was 
the fact that a muggle born student beat out his son. That, in his 
mind, would be the ultimate disgrace. A muggle AND a girl. tsk tsk

Doreen, who hopes that in the end, if Draco is on the dark side, that 
Hermione beats the pants off of him ... no ship intended.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Apr 23 07:18:58 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:18:58 -0000
Subject: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F11UuEhjJ8uT6S00000ced@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c0l12+ie77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17420

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:

> Rita wrote
> > [Snape's boggart would be] himself being evil or being weak.
> > That would have to be, as you said,a more abstract Boggart like
> > Hermione's, rather than seeing himself as in a mirror... What 
> > would he SEE to indicate, for example, having gone back to the 
> > Dark Side?

> And what would he see in the Mirror of Erised?  Himself, wearing
> the Order of Merlin (First Class) and Harry, on bended knee, 
> thanking him for showing him the error of his ways...?

I can't disagree with your Mirror Erised theory, except I'd like to 
think it would include having his True Love with him. Who could 
appear in the Mirror even if heesh is dead in real life as some 
theorize.

While I was out this evening, it occured to me that Snape's Boggart 
might take the shape of the Mirror of Erised reflecting ... Snape 
fawning on Voldemort, or helping Lucius torture Dumbledore, or 
himself breaking under torture....

Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits? Do they need to 
know about the Mirror of Erised in order to use it in their 
attempts to scare?




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 08:30:01 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:30:01 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
In-Reply-To: <9c09is+oo0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c0p69+l37l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17421

Since I triggered the discussion about Harry?s watch by stating there 
are no muggle watches in HP, which was of course proved wrong right 
away, I?d like to put in another question.

At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of the 
Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home, 
travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".

When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs Weasley 
was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys might 
have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a possibility 
that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didn?t get 
enough OWLs". 

Don?t you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she had 
taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger? 




From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 08:50:46 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:50:46 -0000
Subject: harry potter/ the simpsons
Message-ID: <9c0qd6+5dth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17422

Well I was bord and I had just watched a particually good episode of 
the simpsons (the one with the poke of zorro and tomacco) and I had 
the idea of casting Harry Potter with characters from the simpsons, 
so here r my ideas, some r plain wrong (ie grandpa simpson or crusty 
r completely wrond for dumbledorn) but they fit the best in my 
opinion, sorm work really well, Ralf Wiggam is Nevil Longbottom.
Oh and because I couldn't think of anyone in the sipsons that could b 
ron I have also used some charictors from southpark.

Sorry about spellings
Harry Potter = Millhouse (coz of the glasses)
Herminoy = Lisa Simpson
Ron = Kyle (Sothpark)
Malfoy = Bart Simpson
Dumbledorn = Grandpa Simpson/ krusty the clown
Snape = Principle skinner
Hagrid = Barny/ homer/ grounds keeper willy
Proff Magonigal = marge simpson
Ginny weasly = maggy simpson (she is 2 young I know but there rn't 
many girls in the sipsons)
Fred/ george = terance/Philip
Percy = martin
Cedric = stan marsh/ Kenny (coz Kenny dies)
Dudly = Eric Cartman
Uncle Vernon = Comicbook guy
Ant Patuniter = Mrs Lovjoy
Ludo bagman = chief wiggam
Fudge = mayor quimby
Quirril = gill/ linal huts
Lockheart = troy mc clore/ Disco stu 
Cho = wendy 
Sirius black = side show bob (if u ignor the fact side show bob 
deserves 2 b in prison)
Crushanks = snowball 2
Proff lupin = moe (this one is very hard coz there r no really nice 
and good people (that resemble lupin) in the simpsons)
Mr weasly = ned flanders/ kyles dad/ grounds keeper willy(coz he has 
ginger hair)
Mrs weasly = marge simpson/ kyles mum
Crab/ goile = any 2 big bullys
Proff flickwick = proff frink
Moody = the sea captin
Voldemort = mr burns
Wormtail = smithers/ homer simpson
Wand shop guy = apu (I just think apu selling wands would b funny)
Barty croch = revarand lovjoy
Barty croch jr = the teenager 
Nevill longbottom = Ralph wiggum
Reta skeeter = mrs crapbopal (barts teacher)
Proff sprowt = lisa's teacher
Lusius malfoy = snake
Vic krumm = nelson


Can anyone think of better castings?

 





From SHENmagic at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 09:08:21 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:08:21 EDT
Subject: Snape as Double agent
Message-ID: <f3.990e903.28154b05@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17423

"Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com> writes on 

Subject: "Lots of Snape Stuff"

>I think that *if* he managed to fool Voldemort and return as spy, 

>that Voldemort would definitely have him as a connection at Hogwarts. 

>But, as you mentioned, Snape would actually be the double-agent, 

>protecting Harry in reality. I don't think that Dumbledore really 

>expects Snape to succeed, if he has him return to Voldie.

Double agent IN Voldemort's presence would be really dangerous (or as 
Hermione might say, "really, really, dangerous!") since Voldie uses the 
Unforgiveable Curses--one Imperius curse, and I assume anyone under it would 
be compelled to speak truth if so directed-- sheesh, it sounds like that 
curse could have you murder your best friend. Now, Snape can brew 
Veritaserum, and I can also just see Voldemort testing it --on Snape! 
I can also picture Severus brewing a known only to him and Dumbledore 
antidote to Veritaserum, or perhaps a clandestine (from "our side"--the order 
of the Phoenix resistance?) potion to mitigate the effects of the Imperious 
curse. Moody/Crouch indicated A.K.only  was unblockable,   Imperious can 
obviously be fought (Harry in class, Bartys, Jr and Sr working free from it 
over time), so it's believable to me a potion could enhance a wizard's 
resistance to Imperious. 

I also go back on forth on who Voldemort was referring to: whether  
Karkaroff, by fleeing could be interpreted as either "cowardly" or one who 
flees - I believe trying to leave me forever...  Snape' s excuse: I was right 
under Albus Dumbledore's nose - "I couldn't leave, my Lord"....might be 
construed as cowardly--or Voldie is suspicious of our Severus, and believes 
he probably has jumped ship -"left me forever".

Aylihael
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit

there."

- Will Rogers for a comeback! "



From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 09:12:33 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:12:33 -0000
Subject: Snape as Double agent
In-Reply-To: <f3.990e903.28154b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c0rm1+u7jp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17424


but would volt ever accept him back, wouldn't he remember snape 
hindering his and quirrils attempts to get the pheloserphers stone?




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 10:04:44 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
In-Reply-To: <9c0p69+l37l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423100444.69486.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17425

> At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of the 
> Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home, 
> travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".
> When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs Weasley
> was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys might
> have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a possibility 
> that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didnt get 
> enough OWLs". 
> Dont you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she had
> taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger? 


Perhaps it's a sign of the irrational terror the dark mark conjures
up in otherwise intelligent people that she reacted this way.

__________________________________________________
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From jenfold at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 10:30:38 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:30:38 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow
In-Reply-To: <9bpnug+69mv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c108e+m2om@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17426

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> > 
> > > > but where does it say godric's hollow is a town--why can't it 
> be a 
> > > > single residence. 
> > 
> > It?s a village. Check the HPPS scene in the hut on the rock with 
> > Hagrid telling Harry about his parents? death. There is a phrase 
> like 
> > "and then Voldemort turned up in the village where James and Lily 
> > lived..". 
> 
> ***************
> In "The Keeper of the Keys", SS, Hagrid says, "All anyone knows is, 
> he turned up in the village where you was all living, on Halloween 
> ten years ago. You was just a year old. He came to yer house an' -- 
> an'--"
> 
> In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're saying, 
> she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's 
> Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumor is that Lily and 
James 
> Potter are -- are-- that they're --dead."
> 
> In "The Servants of Voldemort", POA, Sirius Black says, "I was 
> scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I 
> saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...I realized what 
Peter 
> must have done... what I'd done."
> 
> It doesn't really say the village of Godrick's Hollow. I think it 
is 
> still up for grabs.
> 
> Doreen, who would have answered sooner, but I find myself caught up 
> in reading more than I need to ... just because I want to. :)

 Delurks.

 Did anyone notice that the wizard who invented the golden snitch 
also lived in Godric's Hollow QttA (if they did sorry I'm newish). 
For me this pushes it towards being a village assuming that James 
Potter had inherited his home along with his money. Although of 
course the inventor of the snitch could possibly be an ancestor of 
the Potters himself and thus own the family home.

 Wandering in circles.

 Jen




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Mon Apr 23 10:57:57 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:57:57 +0100
Subject: godric's hollow and a PoA comment
In-Reply-To: <9c108e+m2om@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEKFDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17427

Hello


GODRIC'S HOLLOW

Jen: <<<Did anyone notice that the wizard who invented the golden snitch
also lived in Godric's Hollow QttA (if they did sorry I'm newish). For me
this pushes it towards being a village assuming that James Potter had
inherited his home along with his money. Although of course the inventor of
the snitch could possibly be an ancestor of the Potters himself and thus
own the family home.>>>

I was thinking about this comment and realises it could possibly answer
another question. Where did James get his money?

Jo Rowling has stated, in some interview or other that I forget the link
to, that James did not need to work for a living and took a job that he
wanted to do rather than a well paid one. Obviously, for this to be true,
he must have had a fair amount of money, which he most probably inherited
from his family. How about the idea of Harry being the great...grandson of
the Golden Snitch inventor?

The inventor of the Snitch would have probably made a fair amount of money
making and selling his product. If he/his family are the only ones who can
make the Snitch (or license the making to someone else) then over the
period of a few hundred years (the time between the Snitch being invented
and Harry coming along) this fortune would have grown to a reasonably large
amount.

QTA says that Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow invented the Snitch. He had
many orders for it. If he, as I assumed above, was the only one making them
then he could have fixed the price as high as he liked.

My thoughts had always been the GH was a village (or maybe a small town),
but looking back at the quotes that mention it this does not have to be the
case. All could easily lead to the interpretation that GH refers only to
the house where the Potter's lived.


Which moves me onto my next point. What happened to the house and land it
is on? I would guess that this technically still belongs to Harry, but
there has been no mention of it to him. Will one day someone take him there
to see what remains? What does remain? Was the house rebuilt or the land
cleared?


POA COMMENT

I have noticed a few comments about Harry getting told off by Snape and
Lupin in PoA for being in Hogsmeade. I have a thought to add to this.

Why did it take Ron so long to get back? By the time Harry had got back
through the tunnel Draco had got back, found Snape and there was enough
time for Snape to make it from his dungeon or staff room (I favour the
former else one of the other teachers would have heard about it) to the
appropriate corridor. Snape then takes Harry down to his office and
proceeds to lecture him for a few minutes, and then Lupin is called. Only
after this does Ron turn up. Where had he been?

He should have been able to follow just behind Draco the whole way back to
work out where he went. Or does Draco know of some other shortcut between
Hogwarts and Hogsmeade? It seems unlikely that Ron should have taken so
long. He should have been able to be waiting for Harry by the end of the
tunnel.



Simon
--
"Paternity leave is available to all permanent staff, irrespective of
gender."
>From an internal document of a bank in the City of London
---------------------------------------------------------------------------








From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 11:08:03 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:08:03 -0000
Subject: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
In-Reply-To: <9c0p69+l37l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c12ej+hv8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17428

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of the 
> Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home, 
> travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".
> 
> When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs Weasley 
> was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys might 
> have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a possibility 
> that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didn?t get 
> enough OWLs". 
> 
> Don?t you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she had 
> taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger?

You know, I really hope JKR never enters this mailist. If she saw 
messages like this, she would just throw up her hands in defeat and 
give up on the whole HP project. The feeling of inadequecy when faced 
with the impossible level of inner consistency demanded here will 
overhelm her completely, I'm sure!  ;-)



Naama




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 11:26:02 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:26:02 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: godric's hollow ... Preposition use varies from country to country
Message-ID: <LAW2-F129LstPGtPrPr00013367@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17429

Doreen wrote:
> > Doreen quoted:
> > <snip>
> > >In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're saying,
> > >she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's
> > >Hollow
>
>
>
>  Agree it's a village - it never occurred to me it was anything else,
>but the above quote is a clincher.  People turn up "in" villages
>and "at" houses.
>************************************
<snip re US "on a street", UK "in a street">

>The "IN" Godric's Hollow line is the same in both books, but "in"
>does not always mean the same in UK as it does in US. I do not know
>where you are from. (sorry) I only know that the prepostion thing has
>me totally confused. I still say it could be either way... Godric's
>Hollow could be a house. :)

I'm British and using British version of the text.  This is interesting!  
IMO, in British English, the only way a person or a thing could "turn up in" 
a house would be if the person or thing was missing and then found to have 
been in the house all the time.  E.g. "I thought I'd left my hat in your 
house, but it turned up in mine."  This would still work if you substituted 
house names.  You would never say "Mr Smith turned up in my house" meaning 
he arrived unexpectedly - that would definitely be "Mr Smith turned up at my 
house", or "Mr Smith turned up at Rose Cottage", even if Mr Smith Apparated 
in the living room.  And even if V *did* Apparate in Godric's Hollow, 
they're talking about his arrival, not how he got there.  Is that different 
in US English?  Even if it is, JKR is a Brit, and I'd have to assume that's 
what she meant.  Of course, there's nothing to rule out a house called 
Godric's Hollow in a village called Godric's Hollow, though it would be an 
odd name for a house and a likely name for a village! :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 12:04:07 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:04:07 
Subject: consistency in HP (was re: ...Clocks)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F718KtdhQYZkxO0000cfee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17430

Naama wrote:
>You know, I really hope JKR never enters this mailist. If she saw
>messages like this, she would just throw up her hands in defeat and
>give up on the whole HP project. The feeling of inadequecy when faced
>with the impossible level of inner consistency demanded here will
>overhelm her completely, I'm sure!  ;-)

I dunno - she could always adopt various ingenious solutions to plot holes 
suggested here :)  I also think it's a tribute to the internal consistency 
of HP that we even have these discussions.  They allow us to spend a little 
more time in the HP world.  I don't demand consistency above everything e.g. 
Why did it take Ron so long to get back from Hogsmeade when Snape was 
telling Harry off?  Maybe he was delayed by Crabbe and Goyle, maybe he ran 
into another teacher first - who knows?  It just makes a great scene when he 
rushes in, panting, to confirm Harry's story.  Where I *do* get my 
microscope out is in relation to the core mysteries - why was V after the 
Potters?  Why did Dumbledore make no comment when Hagrid said he was going 
to return the flying motorbike Sirius lent him?  What destroyed the house?  
Was it the curse that failed, or something/someone else?  I don't expect 
answers to these questions (yet) but I do expect everything will hang 
together with these answers in the meantime.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 12:20:20 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:20:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
References: <a7.db91ce8.28123686@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AE41E03.26588A15@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17431

driveslucy at aol.com wrote:

> I just don't know why hearing it read was so
> >  much more affecting.
>
> I was also much more affected by hearing it read.  Suddenly it hit me
> just how quickly Voldemort could kill,

That was my impression, even reading it myself. When Cedric died, I went
through exactly what (in my opinion) someone *there* would have. I knew
what must have happened, but I didn't process it immediately. There was
an element of shock, of disbelief because it was unfair because he
didn't have a chance.

I think JKR did a great job of both catching how callous Voldemort is,
how little life matters (that "Kill the spare" line is chilling), and of
communicating how bad guys really kill people, how death happens.
Sudden. No warning. No opportunity to speak, no last words. Not the way
deaths are usually handled in literature at all, and very effective. I
was very impressed.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 12:24:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:24:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why I lurk AND a question
References: <F170BkNyYcKUHbY6OIS0000289d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AE41EE0.9487CA18@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17432

Hallie Usmar wrote:

> Lea said
> 'But, as I am writing I can ask a question that came up last night
> when I was listening to PS (Stephen Fry). I had not thought about it,
> but why is it people from Hogwarts who leave Harry at the Dursleys.
> Why not someone from Ministry of Magic?'

> This is just my theory, but having witnessed Cornelius Fudge's
> inadequacies at Minister of Magic in books three and four, and
> assuming Fudge was MoM at the time of Lily and James' death, I think
> its entirely feasible to suggest
> that Dumbledore felt that the Ministry would probably send Harry to an
> orphanage, and the general assumption is that Harry is safe at the
> Dursleys thanks to 'blood magic', so obviously, Dumbledore would want
> him to be with relatives.  So, Hogwarts took over, presumably to
> prevent any Ministry
> blunders (and lets face it, beaurocrats have their fair share of
> blunders).

Perhaps part of that "lost day" saw Dumbledore off arguing this very
point with Fudge...? Before he spent the time to set up the protection,
which I also think took part of that time?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 12:27:40 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:27:40 -0000
Subject: Snape's Boggart - Japanese - Muggleborn Gryffs, Draco's marks
Message-ID: <9c173s+9joh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17433

Magda wrote:

> > Interesting, isn't it, that Snape takes off when Lupin and class
> > show > up in the teachers' lounge to battle the Boggart?  Would
> > he see a Dementor? Or Lord V, like Harry is afraid he will?

"Me too" on the "fascinating question, Magda!"

I thought at my first reading that it was only the natural and polite 
thing to do to excuse himself from the staffroom while a class was 
using it.  Snape, in order to be maximally rude to Lupin and Neville, 
turns this courtesy into nastiness--"I'd rather not witness this, 
etc." where someone like McGonagall would have said, "Oh, that's 
right, you needed the staffroom for your third year class--pardon me." 
 That still seems right, but now you have me thinking what else the 
rudeness might be covering up.

Gaynor, that blurb from the Japanese site made my day.  "Then, the 
baby with the injury which made the form of the lightning to be an 
amount is put with the shave before the house in the one eaves."  
ROFL!

Penny wrote:

>Of course, we're not sure that Hermione is the only muggle-born
>Gryffindor.  Someone has a good theory that Dean Thomas sounds
>muggle-born given his preoccupation with soccer (and seeming lack of
>knowledge about Quidditch).  Someone else though Lavender might also 
be
>muggle-born. 

These are educated guesses based on the character's knowledge of 
wizarding/Muggle life or lack thereof.  My guess is that Dean and 
Lavender are Muggle-born, because they don't know what a Grim is.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
  "My dear," Professor Trelawney's huge eyes opened dramatically, "you 
have the Grim."
  "The what?" said Harry.
  He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; 
Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but 
nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror.  
(PA 6)
                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

Likewise, I figure Wood has little contact with Muggle life because 
he's never heard of basketball (PS/SS 10).

I wouldn't read much into Dean's passion for soccer, but his ignorance 
of Quidditch would seem to cap it.  (It is possible that he knows 
there's no such thing as a red card in Quidditch, but that he's so 
outraged he yells it anyway [PS/SS 11].)

Anyway, back to what it says about Draco:  I don't think he spends any 
more time with Hermione than other Muggle-borns, based on the above 
evidence that she isn't the only one in his classes, but I do think 
it's likely that he talks about her most--because she's Harry's friend 
and because he =is= ashamed that she's top of the class (or because he 
has a crush on her <g>)--so that might prompt Lucius's comparison.  
And good point, Simon, that it's Draco who brings Hermione up first.

I do think that Lucius's comparing him to Hermione implies that L, at 
least, thinks he has the potential to do that well.  D could be a 
mediocre student whose dad just can't accept that his son isn't that 
bright, or (more likely IMO) he is a pretty good student and very 
bright kid who could possibly be #1 if he worked at it.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 However, it is easy to repulse the Pogrebin 
 with simple hexes or Stupefying Charms.  
 Kicking has also been found effective.
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Apr 23 12:32:15 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:32:15 -0400
Subject: Consistancy in the Weasley Clock (was RE: Everything you've alway s wanted to know about Clocks)
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DD8@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17434

In my constant urge to make JKR *appear* consistant, I hereby present
arguments as to why she wouldnt've been completely reassured even IF she'd
looked at the clock which said, On Holiday or something like that (I think
it's been indicated that *traveling* is only while someone is in transit,
like while flying a car to hogwarts or apparating)
1. The clock MAY have spun to mortal peril for a moment for Ron - while the
wizards were pointing their wands at him, Harry & Hermione - and from my
Mothering Perspective, if the clock stopped on Mortal Peril even for a
SECOND, I would NOT relax until my Baby (no matter how big he is!) was back
by my side
2. Fred, George & Ginny may also have spun to mortal peril for a moment - or
even a lesser "number" like Danger Zone - again, Mother does not relax until
she sees for herself that her Baby is safe. 
3. Arthur, Bill & Charlie might have been in mortal peril, or danger, while
they were trying to stop the Death Eater rampage & riot

or 4. She wasn't nervous until she looked at the newspaper in the morning &
read all about the Dark Mark in the sky, etc., and then kicked herself for
not having been looking at the clock the night before because she was
enjoying a night alone  by catching up on reading-for-pleasure, taking a
nice bath, all the other things mums do when they are left alone after a
summer of dealing with large numbers of kids and didn't know WHAT was going
on, because the clock has no *rewind* function, and just because they were
set at *on holiday* at that moment didn't mean they were *on holiday* while
recovering from injuries, separated from each other, momentarily tortured by
death eaters, etc. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lea.macleod at gmx.net [mailto:lea.macleod at gmx.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:30 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know
> about Clocks
> 
> 
> Real-To:  lea.macleod at gmx.net
> 
> Since I triggered the discussion about Harry?s watch by stating there 
> are no muggle watches in HP, which was of course proved wrong right 
> away, I?d like to put in another question.
> 
> At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of the 
> Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home, 
> travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".
> 
> When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs Weasley 
> was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys might 
> have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a possibility 
> that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didn?t get 
> enough OWLs". 
> 
> Don?t you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she had 
> taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger? 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~-~>
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> and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your 
> chance to win
> in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
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> -------_->
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be 
> posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier 
> for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
> and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT 
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 12:42:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:42:25 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c17vh+t7qa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17435

Dave wrote:

>can anyone here point to
>any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
>intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
>the Hogwarts universe?

Sorry, I can't, other than the "First Things" article Penny pointed 
you to, but what comes to mind for me is that it's important not to 
accept the opponents' definition of "occultism."  This goes for saying 
"HP isn't about the occult" AND for accepting the implication that the 
occult is evil.  What =is= the occult?  I've seen it used to refer to 
everything from palmistry to Wicca to Satanic ritual to "magic."  My 
dictionary says it's belief in the supernatural, which would make most 
Christians occultists.  But dictionaries aren't the most nuanced 
sources . . .

What goes on in HP has nothing to do with Paganism other than its 
positive valuation of magic and the word "witch."  This is enough to 
send people like the HP and the Bible author around the bend.  A lot 
of Christian fundamentalists don't need to know anything else about HP 
or Wiccanism, because the Bible says "you shall not suffer a witch to 
live," and that settles the matter for them.  Never mind that it is 
quite unclear what the Bible means by a witch.

On the other side, HP's positive use of the word "witch" is enough to 
make some Wiccans cheer for it--but HP is not about Wicca, witchcraft 
in the religious sense, or Paganism.  

Plenty of Christians are able to see Paganism as a separate religion 
that doesn't threaten their own any more than Judaism or Islam does.  
And plenty of Christians =and= Pagans are able to see that HP isn't 
really about either of their religions.  

So far, so good.  But neither is Wicca, the religion, "occult" in the 
sense that its critics often mean it.  I expect that one thing the 
author of _HP & the Bible_ means by "occult" is "Satanic."  Wicca is 
not about Satan-worship--quite the opposite.  I would be cautious 
about implying "HP is good, occultism is bad, HP isn't occultism," 
because it accepts the all-too-vague (and pejorative) definitions of 
occultism.

I hope you'll upload your speech to Files when it's done!

Amy Z

---------------------------------------
 If only the hat had mentioned a house 
 for people who felt a bit queasy, 
 that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 12:42:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:42:54 -0500
Subject: More Snape! She's at it again! AAAAAGH (was Snape as teacher)
References: <9brp8g+726r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE4234E.A02882E8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17436

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> Amanda has brought up the Snape issue again,

Yeah, sorry about that; that's what happens when you let old emails pile
up in your box and then go through a glob of them suddenly. But Amanda
tends to bring up Snape issues a lot, Amanda does....  :::pauses to
accept "understatement of the month" award from list:::

> I disagree with the second bit, though. The great "break" in Snape?s
> view of his own past and especially regarding his old enemies came at
> the end of PoA, not at the end of GoF, so we already *know* how Snape
> reacted to it: *not at all*.
>
> When I had finished PoA, I somehow thought: How will Harry ever be
> able to take Snape seriously again, as a teacher? How will they ever
> find back to an everyday mode of getting along with each other on a
> student-teacher-basis?
>
> I mean how would you interact with your teacher after you?ve seen him
> go positively mad so you had to knock him out?
>
> But all JKR says about it (at the start of GoF) is that Snape had
> attained new levels of vindictiveness over the summer, and right as
> she is, is that a realistic reaction?
>
> Amanda would of course suggest that?s just the way he handles these
> experiences - ignore them.

I think there's a big, big difference between ignoring something and
sublimating it. Processing something without mentioning it is also not
the same as ignoring. In my mind, ignoring something of magnitude is the
same thing as lying to yourself, and with all Snape's faults, I don't
think he does that. I think he takes some major-league convincing to
even entertain the notion of changing a viewpoint, but once the evidence
is presented I believe he takes it into account.

> -----------
> Amamnda on teaching qualities again:
>
> So Snape?s problem really is (apart from all the many others we don?t
> know about yet) that as much as he tries not to be influenced by and
> show his own emotions, he doesn?t even manage to do his teaching job
> rather unemotionally and mechanically.
>
> So if Amanda is entirely right with her "emotional autopilot"
> statement (which was a brilliant metaphor, I think) we would see Snape
> in class as a second Prof. Binns. Which he is not, obviously.

No, by emotional autopilot, I meant he's not really thinking about his
reactions too much, or involving a deeper level of himself. By analogy,
my brother is a musician, and has what my husband calls a "hail fellow
well met" way of dealing with people. It's a learned thing, a hearty
"hey, how's it goin'" type thing which can seem very sincere, but which
is simply a pattern or mode of processing people and handling
interactions. Over the years of dealing with audiences, contacts, etc.,
he has picked this up, and that's his "autopilot." He can know you for
years and never come off the autopilot, never really consider you as a
person or think any deeper than the "how's it goin'" mode. It's not
unemotional, just uninvolved.

This is more what I meant for Snape. His autopilot is a mode of
nastiness, favoring Slytherin, making snotty comments, and having a dour
outlook. But he doesn't seem all that involved. He seems to be doing all
of this on a superficial level, without bringing any real consideration
of the personalities of the students he's interacting with. It is only
in conversations with Dumbledore, or in the staffroom scene, that he
seems involved on a less superficial level.

Operating on an auto-mode is easier than having to think. I think he's
been doing this as a teacher for years, and especially now when Harry is
here, he doesn't want to revisit old thoughts and feelings. He has
to--the associations are too clear--and I think this is the source of
his especial nastiness to Harry and his friends.

I also think that it is only at the end of GoF that Snape has managed to
bring any deeper involvement of himself to Harry. The whole different
character of the way he and Harry looked at each other at the end of
year feast seemed very signficant to me. Snape seems to be ready to see
Harry as Harry, and interact with him as a real person, rather than via
the easy-chair, unthinking autopilot mode.

Wow, I ramble when I'm sleepy. Sorry.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 12:45:13 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:45:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Lucius Malfoy
References: <9brpuu+ft8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE423D9.611E15A2@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17437

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> In the "parting of the ways" chapter, Harry tells Fudge the names of
> the DE who were present at Voldemort?s rebirth to make him believe it
> really happened, and when he names Lucius Malfoy,
>
> "Snape made a sudden movement. But as Harry looked at him, his eyes
> flew back to Fudge." (paraphrase).
>
> That?s another fantastic hint giving wings to our thoughts, isn?t it?
> What are your theories?

I've thought that Snape's task, which he now knows is coming, might
involve Malfoy and since he'd been thinking of the name, started a bit
when it was actually said. I'm sure it's significant, we just don't have
a lot to go on yet.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 12:56:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:56:17 -0000
Subject: Ron's delay (was: PoA comment), C&G
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEKFDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9c18ph+aau2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17438

Simon wrote:

> Why did it take Ron so long to get back? By the time Harry had got 
back
> through the tunnel Draco had got back, found Snape and there was 
enough
> time for Snape to make it from his dungeon or staff room (I favour 
the
> former else one of the other teachers would have heard about it) to 
the
> appropriate corridor. Snape then takes Harry down to his office and
> proceeds to lecture him for a few minutes, and then Lupin is called. 
Only
> after this does Ron turn up. Where had he been?
> 
> He should have been able to follow just behind Draco the whole way 
back to
> work out where he went. Or does Draco know of some other shortcut 
between
> Hogwarts and Hogsmeade? It seems unlikely that Ron should have taken 
so
> long. He should have been able to be waiting for Harry by the end of 
the
> tunnel.

I've wondered about that a lot.  We can resolve two questions at once: 
 How did Ron get there so fast? and How did Ron know where to find 
Harry?  He got back to Hogwarts not long after Draco did, but had to 
ask around to find out where Harry was.  He'd probably have gone to 
the tunnel entrance first--no Harry.  Then to the common room, where 
he might find Neville or someone who'd say they hadn't seen him in a 
couple of hours.  Finally he ran into someone who'd seen Harry getting 
marched off to Snape's office--or better, he found Draco himself, who 
was sneering about how he'd reported the whole thing to Snape and 
Potter was in for it now.

The weak spot is still the question of why Ron got there any later 
than Draco at all.  I could see a delay of a couple of minutes--Draco 
takes off running, Ron follows a bit more slowly so as not to catch 
them up and risk getting beaten up--but there has to be a delay of 
several minutes to give Draco time to talk to Snape and Snape time to 
get up to the one-eyed witch.  (That man seems to know something about 
that statue...)

This reminds me of something else.  Has anyone ever heard Crabbe or 
Goyle say anything?  Off the top of my head, I don't think they do 
anything but snigger and grunt.  And yell if bitten by a rat, of 
course.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From dorband at uwp.edu  Mon Apr 23 12:58:55 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:58:55 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c18uf+gfbs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17439

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> Well, as I'm preparing a speech on the attempts to ban
> Harry, 


Dave,
There's plenty to be read on this topic - for instance, I found this 
tidbit from a yahoo search "harry potter" and "antichrist".  
Really....

http://www.pawcreek.org/Harry%20Potter.htm


Nothing is too odd to consider.  Good luck on your speech.

Brian








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 13:08:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:08:06 -0000
Subject: Death in GoF
In-Reply-To: <3AE41E03.26588A15@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c19fm+ql2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17440

Lucy wrote:

> > I was also much more affected by hearing it read.  Suddenly it hit 
me
> > just how quickly Voldemort could kill,

Amanda wrote:

> I think JKR did a great job of both catching how callous Voldemort 
is,
> how little life matters (that "Kill the spare" line is chilling), 
and of
> communicating how bad guys really kill people, how death happens.
> Sudden. No warning. No opportunity to speak, no last words. Not the 
way
> deaths are usually handled in literature at all, and very effective. 
I
> was very impressed.

Me too, me too, me too, and this is why I can't understand the critics 
who say HP is evil because "four people die in the first chapter of 
GF" (this is by their addition, not mine), or because it's about evil, 
or because there isn't always a happy ending.  If people think these 
themes are too advanced for eight-year-olds, that's one thing, but as 
for judging the books immoral on this basis, I couldn't disagree more. 
 I firmly believe that literature should portray death the way it 
really happens, which is often sudden, cruel, arbitrary, and without 
apparent redemption.  If there is to be a happy ending for Cedric, the 
reader will have to believe in heaven and imagine that that's where he 
is now--which is fine.  But in the books, as for the rest of us here 
on earth, all anyone knows for sure is that a kind and good young 
person is dead for no good reason.  His parents are left to suffer, 
there's no bringing him back, and the only consolation anyone can take 
is that he died fast (and at a time that he was happy, as Mrs. 
Diggory says) and his body wasn't left to be mutilated.  This, to my 
mind, is exactly the kind of thing that makes HP such fine moral 
literature.

Thanks for letting me rant,
Amy Z




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 03:00:04 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:00:04 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] AD-headmasters
Message-ID: <LAW2-F368N8yxdZjfNL000122c7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17441


Jennifer wrote:

>
>If one of the requirements for being Headmaster/mistress of Hogwarts
>is having the initials A. D. then neither Snape nor McGonagall nor
>Potter is eligible for the job.
>
>Guess that leaves us with Amos Diggory and Aberforth Dumbledore. One
>bitter father of an slaughtered son, one oddball. *worried look*

LOL!  *You're* worried!  How do you think the goats feel? ;)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 13:51:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:51:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's delay (was: PoA comment), C&G
References: <9c18ph+aau2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE4335D.4879D2FA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17442

Amy Z wrote:

> Simon wrote:

<snipped everything, too tired to weed>

I finally, after many attempts and cursing the search feature, found my
post on the whole timetable for the mudslinging/Snape's office scenario.
It's number 14910, and it has at least a plausible excuse for why Ron's
not right there immediately.

I *don't* know why Harry didn't just wear the invisibility cloak all the
way back to the dorm, though. Maybe he not only had to not be in
Hogsmeade, he had to be in tangible evidence at Hogwarts?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 13:54:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:54:49 -0000
Subject: The Weasley Clock ... was everything you always wanted to know
In-Reply-To: <9c12ej+hv8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1c79+fom3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17443

> You know, I really hope JKR never enters this mailist. If she saw 
> messages like this, she would just throw up her hands in defeat and 
> give up on the whole HP project. The feeling of inadequecy when 
faced 
> with the impossible level of inner consistency demanded here will 
> overhelm her completely, I'm sure!  ;-)
> Naama
*********************
Nah ... she would also see that we clearly love her works. Most of us 
have read and re-read them until we have them almost memorized. We 
adore her characters, good & bad, well except for you know who. If we 
didn't care, we never would have noticed the nitpicky things that 
make for great discussions in here, like the Weasley clock. 

Maybe when the Dark Mark appeared in the sky, all of the hands on the 
clock went spinning, sort of like our clocks & vcr's flash during a 
thunderstorm.

Doreen
*********************




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 13:56:53 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:56:53 -0000
Subject: Consistancy in the Weasley Clock (was RE: Everything you've alway s wanted to know about Clocks)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DD8@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9c1cb6+r36o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17444

I think that any mother with kids like the Weasley's might get used 
to seeing that hand spin up into "mortal peril" pretty often.  I bet 
Charlie's gets up there all the -- I mean, hey, he works with 
dragons.  And well, Fred and George ... I can see them now, with a 
nice piece of tin or some such thing, at the top of Stoteshead 
Hill, "I think we can make it all the through the pasture this time, 
if we just add a bit more weight, COME HERE RON..."  I always picture 
them as a red-haired version of my husband's family (6 kids)  -- John 
swears that they were on a first name basis with all the people who 
worked in the near-by emergency room.  John himself has been in the 
ER in six states.  Let's face it, rambuncous kids and all of us, just 
driving down the street during rush hour, would probably swing 
into "mortal peril" more than you'd think.  My point is, I would 
imagine that the "mortal peril" hand proabably isn't the most 
reliable source of imformation.  And even if she did see swing up 
there for all of them during the DE's rampage, she may have 
thought, "What have the twins done this time?" or something of that 
sort UNTIL she got the paper the next day and realized they really 
and truly were in mortal peril -- and not just thinking about jumping 
off the stadium after a veela -- it being the paper, and not the 
clock, which upset her so much.  
Stephanie




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> In my constant urge to make JKR *appear* consistant, I hereby 
present
> arguments as to why she wouldnt've been completely reassured even 
IF she'd
> looked at the clock which said, On Holiday or something like that 
(I think
> it's been indicated that *traveling* is only while someone is in 
transit,
> like while flying a car to hogwarts or apparating)
> 1. The clock MAY have spun to mortal peril for a moment for Ron - 
while the
> wizards were pointing their wands at him, Harry & Hermione - and 
from my
> Mothering Perspective, if the clock stopped on Mortal Peril even 
for a
> SECOND, I would NOT relax until my Baby (no matter how big he is!) 
was back
> by my side
> 2. Fred, George & Ginny may also have spun to mortal peril for a 
moment - or
> even a lesser "number" like Danger Zone - again, Mother does not 
relax until
> she sees for herself that her Baby is safe. 
> 3. Arthur, Bill & Charlie might have been in mortal peril, or 
danger, while
> they were trying to stop the Death Eater rampage & riot
> 
> or 4. She wasn't nervous until she looked at the newspaper in the 
morning &
> read all about the Dark Mark in the sky, etc., and then kicked 
herself for
> not having been looking at the clock the night before because she 
was
> enjoying a night alone  by catching up on reading-for-pleasure, 
taking a
> nice bath, all the other things mums do when they are left alone 
after a
> summer of dealing with large numbers of kids and didn't know WHAT 
was going
> on, because the clock has no *rewind* function, and just because 
they were
> set at *on holiday* at that moment didn't mean they were *on 
holiday* while
> recovering from injuries, separated from each other, momentarily 
tortured by
> death eaters, etc. 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lea.macleod at g... [mailto:lea.macleod at g...]
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:30 AM
> > To: HPforGrownups at y...
> > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to 
know
> > about Clocks
> > 
> > 
> > Real-To:  lea.macleod at g...
> > 
> > Since I triggered the discussion about Harry?s watch by stating 
there 
> > are no muggle watches in HP, which was of course proved wrong 
right 
> > away, I?d like to put in another question.
> > 
> > At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of 
the 
> > Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home, 
> > travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".
> > 
> > When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs 
Weasley 
> > was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys 
might 
> > have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a 
possibility 
> > that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didn?t get 
> > enough OWLs". 
> > 
> > Don?t you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she 
had 
> > taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger? 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> > ---------------------~-~>
> > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding 
> > and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your 
> > chance to win
> > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/sLselB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------_->
> > 
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> > 
> > From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be 
> > posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier 
> > for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
> > and those they don't.
> > 
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT 
> > messages, point your cyberbroomstick at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more 
details,
> contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...) 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 14:13:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:13:48 -0000
Subject: harry potter/ the simpsons
In-Reply-To: <9c0qd6+5dth@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1das+kc13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17445

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> Well I was bord and I had just watched a particually good episode 
of 
> the simpsons (the one with the poke of zorro and tomacco) and I had 
> the idea of casting Harry Potter with characters from the simpsons, 
> so here r my ideas, some r plain wrong (ie grandpa simpson or 
crusty 
> r completely wrond for dumbledorn) but they fit the best in my 
> opinion, sorm work really well, Ralf Wiggam is Nevil Longbottom.
> Oh and because I couldn't think of anyone in the sipsons that 
couldb 
> ron I have also used some charictors from southpark.
> 

> Can anyone think of better castings?
pjmonkey
****************************************
Just how bored WERE you? ha ha Maybe you should try writing your own 
little Harry Potter story. I just can not picture Harry, Ron, or 
Hermione as little yellow potty-mouthed characters.

You might, however, give some thought to what the Simpsons would do 
if they were sent to Hogwarts, such as: What house do you think Lisa 
or Bart would be in? Beyond that, I think the Simpson characters 
compared to the HP characters is a place that I do not want to go. I 
think they would trash up the images that I have built up in my mind 
from my readings. 
Doreen
*****************************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 14:32:41 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:32:41 -0000
Subject: godric's hollow ... Preposition use varies from country to country
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F129LstPGtPrPr00013367@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c1ee9+nsfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Doreen wrote:
> > > Doreen quoted:
> > > <snip>
> > > >In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're 
saying,
> > > >she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in 
Godric's
> > > >Hollow
> >
> >
> >
> >  Agree it's a village - it never occurred to me it was anything 
else,
> >but the above quote is a clincher.  People turn up "in" villages
> >and "at" houses.
> >************************************
> <snip re US "on a street", UK "in a street">
> 
> >The "IN" Godric's Hollow line is the same in both books, but "in"
> >does not always mean the same in UK as it does in US. I do not know
> >where you are from. (sorry) I only know that the prepostion thing 
has
> >me totally confused. I still say it could be either way... Godric's
> >Hollow could be a house. :)
> 
> I'm British and using British version of the text.  This is 
interesting!  
> IMO, in British English, the only way a person or a thing 
could "turn up in" 
> a house would be if the person or thing was missing and then found 
to have 
> been in the house all the time.  E.g. "I thought I'd left my hat in 
your 
> house, but it turned up in mine."  This would still work if you 
substituted 
> house names.  You would never say "Mr Smith turned up in my house" 
meaning 
> he arrived unexpectedly - that would definitely be "Mr Smith turned 
up at my 
> house", or "Mr Smith turned up at Rose Cottage", even if Mr Smith 
Apparated 
> in the living room.  And even if V *did* Apparate in Godric's 
Hollow, 
> they're talking about his arrival, not how he got there.  Is that 
different 
> in US English?  Even if it is, JKR is a Brit, and I'd have to 
assume that's 
> what she meant.  Of course, there's nothing to rule out a house 
called 
> Godric's Hollow in a village called Godric's Hollow, though it 
would be an 
> odd name for a house and a likely name for a village! :)
************************
While I agree that Mr Smith might not turn up IN Rose Cottage, 
Voldemort *could* turn up IN Godric's Hollow (the cottage) because he 
is IN the cottage to kill the Potters.

Most people turn up AT someone's house and only go IN when they are 
invited. I doubt that Voldie was waiting for an invitation, but 
rather wished to use the element of surprise. Therefore, he just 
might have turned up IN the cottage, sort of like the bogeyman under 
the bed. 

This whole thread has me giggling for some strange reason.

Doreen, who is IN da house!
***************************




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 23 14:51:49 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:51:49 -0000
Subject: Moody Pic (was HP Art)
In-Reply-To: <059601c0cb99$f9dfc340$80bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9c1fi5+oc9i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17447

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
>> Much as I hate to admit it, the best drawing I've seen yet is the 
one in the US edition of GoF.  But this runs a close second.<<

LOL! True, very true. Tell you what: the minute I get a scanner, I'll 
do up a pic of Moody for you and send it to you. (I swear, I can 
draw! Really...) Then you can tell me what I need to fix on it! ;)

Lyda





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 14:58:25 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Snape! She's at it again! AAAAAGH (was Snape as teacher)
In-Reply-To: <3AE4234E.A02882E8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010423145825.18945.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17448

> This is more what I meant for Snape. His autopilot is a mode of
> nastiness, favoring Slytherin, making snotty comments, and having a
> dour outlook. But he doesn't seem all that involved. He seems to be
> doing all of this on a superficial level, without bringing any real
> consideration of the personalities of the students he's interacting

> with. It is only in conversations with Dumbledore, or in the 
> staffroom scene, that he
> seems involved on a less superficial level.

This is very true.  And it is even more obvious in the part of PoA
where he does lose control of his emotions.

No, not the near-hysteria in the Shrieking Shack or the total rage in
the hospital ward after Sirius has escaped.  Rather it comes when
Dumbledore asks him to step out of the room and Snape asks "You
haven't forgotten what he almost did to me?" (or words to that
effect; I don't have the book handy).  

It's a moment of vulnerability - the first we've seen of old Snape. 
Will Dumbledore be swayed by the more likeable Sirius and Harry into
turning against Severus who has a hard time connecting with people
and isn't attractive and rather enjoys swooping around in black
cloaks because it's so, you know, kind of goth-y and cool but who
really, really craves Dumbledore's approval?

And Dumbledore comes through: "My memory is as good as it ever was." 


And only then does Snape leave.

I thought it was quite a touching moment, actually.  No revelation in
GoF came close to it for showing what Snape is like underneath.

I predict that as much as Harry would miss Dumbledore if the old
wizard doesn't survive the series, it would be nothing compared to
Snape's reaction.  Harry has Sirius, the Weasleys and others for
support.  Snape will be shattered.


__________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 15:03:38 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:03:38 -0000
Subject: Death in GoF... 
In-Reply-To: <9c19fm+ql2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1g8a+4nvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17449

<snips<
> Me too, me too, me too, and this is why I can't understand the 
critics 
> who say HP is evil because "four people die in the first chapter of 
> GF" (this is by their addition, not mine), or because it's about 
evil, 
> or because there isn't always a happy ending.  If people think 
these 
> themes are too advanced for eight-year-olds, that's one thing, but 
as 
> for judging the books immoral on this basis, I couldn't disagree 
more. 
> Amy Z
***************************
I grew up reading, "Grimms'Fairy Tales (the real ones, not the 
softened versions) and "101 Tales of the Arabian Knights". I also 
went to Sunday School and church every Sunday. My moral teachings 
also came from within my home and from my teachers. I really do 
believe that it was because of this foundation in my life ... this 
balance ... that I was able to enjoy such violent readings and not 
ponder about beheading my classmates. I think this is the difference 
between "the way we were raised" and the "way kids are turning out" 
today.

The "critics" and the "moral issues fanatics" are concentrating on 
the wrong end of the situation. Instead of worrying so much about 
*what* children *read*, maybe they should concentrate on *what 
children *learn* at home and at school.

I find it hard to believe that there are critics who are trashing HP, 
when there is so much more on tv or in the movies to worry about.. 
and don't even get me started on video games! 

There is always going to be someone, somewhere who thinks that 
someone else is having more fun than they are. Those people don't 
know how to join in, so they criticize. They are doing the only thing 
they know how to do, since they have no real life of their own. 

Doreen




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 15:06:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:06:43 -0000
Subject: in/at Godric's Hollow
In-Reply-To: <9c1ee9+nsfq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1ge3+2b1h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17450

> > > > >In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What they're 
> saying,
> > > > >she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in 
> Godric's
> > > > >Hollow

What comes after this all but clinches the fact that even if you can 
turn up IN someone's house (e.g. by Apparating), Voldemort turned up 
IN their village and THEN went to their house:

"Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow.  He went to find the 
Potters."

That doesn't sound like something you'd say if Godric's Hollow was 
their house.  Try it:

"last night Voldemort turned up in Good-Name-for-an-Aristocratic- 
House.  He went to find the Malfoys."

Doesn't work.  If "he went to find the Potters" means that's what he 
did after "turning up," then he has to have turned up in the village; 
you don't Apparate into someone's house and then go look for them 
(unless they're not in the house...)

If "he went to find the Potters" isn't meant to be something he did 
=after= arriving in GH, but is stated afterwards as an explanation of 
what he was doing there, it again implies that it's a village, because 
otherwise McGonagall's statement is ludicrously redundant.  "He 
turned up in the Potters' house.  He went to find the Potters." If 
it's their house, of course he was there to find them--why else would 
he have gone there?  (Maybe to leave a surprise gift and sneak out 
again.)

IIRC, we got onto this whole thing on the theory that Harry owns a 
house somewhere (or a lot, since that's all that was left . . . 
sniff).  He could still own a house that's IN Godric's Hollow but 
called something else, no?  It could be the grand house of GH and be 
called anything you like.  Though I can't get into the image of James 
and Lily occupying a manor, myself.  I guess I'm just overidentifying, 
because I picture them in a very cozy little cottage--i.e., the kind 
of place I'd want to live.  ;-)

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "Someone attacking you, Harry?" Seamus asked sleepily.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 23 15:09:26 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:09:26 -0000
Subject: Snape as Double agent
In-Reply-To: <f3.990e903.28154b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c1gj6+pd1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17451

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote:
>> Double agent IN Voldemort's presence would be really dangerous (or 
as Hermione might say, "really, really, dangerous!") since Voldie 
uses the Unforgiveable Curses--one Imperius curse, and I assume 
anyone under it would be compelled to speak truth if so directed-- 
sheesh, it sounds like that curse could have you murder your best 
friend. Now, Snape can brew Veritaserum, and I can also just see 
Voldemort testing it --on Snape! I can also picture Severus brewing a 
known only to him and Dumbledore antidote to Veritaserum, or perhaps 
a clandestine (from "our side"--the order of the Phoenix resistance?) 
potion to mitigate the effects of the Imperious curse. Moody/Crouch 
indicated A.K.only  was unblockable,   Imperious can obviously be 
fought (Harry in class, Bartys, Jr and Sr working free from it over 
time), so it's believable to me a potion could enhance a wizard's 
resistance to Imperious.<<

Oooh! Snape brewing Veritaserum, but having it used on himself!! That 
is a really cool idea for a fanfic... if you write, you shoudl 
consider using that idea. :) As for the Imperious Curse, for some 
reason (just me, not canon) I don't think that there's an Imperious 
Curse resistance potion or the like. However, I do think that Snape 
is a really powerful wizard (or as Hermione would say, "really, 
really powerful!" *g*) and that if Harry can throw the Imperious 
Curse, then he likewise would be able to. 

>>I also go back on forth on who Voldemort was referring to: whether 
Karkaroff, by fleeing could be interpreted as either "cowardly" or 
one who flees - I believe trying to leave me forever...  Snape' s 
excuse: I was right under Albus Dumbledore's nose - "I couldn't 
leave, my Lord"....might be construed as cowardly--or Voldie is 
suspicious of our Severus, and believes he probably has jumped ship -
"left me forever".<<

Now, I admit that this theory *is* intriquing, but I stick to my 
belief that Karkaroff *is* the cowardly one. Look at him in GoF! He's 
always worming around, practically stalking Snape, crying "It's 
coming back! It's coming back!" Snape himself tells him to "flee, 
[he] will make [his] excuses. [Snape], however, [is] remaining at 
Hogwarts." And Karkaroff *does* flee; how cowardly is that! :)

Also, I think that word of Snape's spying has no doubt made it's way 
to Voldemort. PS/SS anyone? Voldie is right there on the back of 
Quirrell's head all year, when Snape is suspicious of Quirrell; how 
could he *not* realize where Snape's new alliances lie? Further, 
Rebecca mentioned the "I believe" in Voldemort's statement about the 
one who has "left [him] forever", and I too think that this admission 
of uncertainty is quite important to future books, whether or not 
Snape returns as spy.

Lyda




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 15:37:57 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:37:57 -0000
Subject: in/at Godric's Hollow
In-Reply-To: <9c1ge3+2b1h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1i8l+33h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17452

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > > > > >In "The Boy Who Lived", SS, Macgonagall says, "What 
they're 
> > saying,
> > > > > >she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in 
> > Godric's
> > > > > >Hollow
> 
> What comes after this all but clinches the fact that even if you 
can 
> turn up IN someone's house (e.g. by Apparating), Voldemort turned 
up 
> IN their village and THEN went to their house:
> 
> "Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow.  He went to find the 
> Potters."
> 
> That doesn't sound like something you'd say if Godric's Hollow was 
> their house.  Try it:
> 
> "last night Voldemort turned up in Good-Name-for-an-Aristocratic- 
> House.  He went to find the Malfoys."
> 
> Doesn't work.  If "he went to find the Potters" means that's what 
he 
> did after "turning up," then he has to have turned up in the 
village; 
> you don't Apparate into someone's house and then go look for them 
> (unless they're not in the house...)
> 
> If "he went to find the Potters" isn't meant to be something he did 
> =after= arriving in GH, but is stated afterwards as an explanation 
of 
> what he was doing there, it again implies that it's a village, 
because 
> otherwise McGonagall's statement is ludicrously redundant.  "He 
> turned up in the Potters' house.  He went to find the Potters." If 
> it's their house, of course he was there to find them--why else 
would 
> he have gone there?  > Amy Z
******************************
Seeing as how this is in the first chapter of the first book, I feel 
that McGonagall's statement/explanation of *why* Voldie *went to* 
Godric's Hollow is very fitting. 

This is the way I understand it: "They are saying that Voldemort 
turned up in Godric's Hollow." "They are saying that Voldemort went 
there to find the Potters."  Before McGonagall's statement, we 
neither know the existence of Godric's Hollow is or that the Potters 
lived there, be it village *or* a house. *If* it merely 
said, "Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow", what would that tell 
the reader? I believe both sentences are needed and not redundant.

The Potters were protected from Voldemort *only* as long as Voldemort 
did not know where they were. The minute that Voldemort knew where 
they were, that was the extent of the protection. Since Voldemort has 
access to the worst-of-the-worst Dark Arts magic, he could probably 
turn up *under* their bed,  *in* their toilet, or *on* their dining 
room table if he chose to do so. Surprise! Guess who's coming to 
dinner? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Voldie!

Doreen, who once memorized all 32 prepostions and hates when her 
sentences end with one. 




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 15:47:42 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:47:42 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Snape! Snape - Filch relationship (not the slashy POV <G>)
References: <9brp8g+726r@eGroups.com> <3AE4234E.A02882E8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00c701c0cc0c$bcdabea0$332c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17453

>But Amanda >tends to bring up Snape issues a lot, Amanda does

Heh. I wanted to write a post about Filch and it suddenly took a turn and I
was Snape-talking again... Glad it's not just me <g>

I finally got my PS back, after several weeks of absence in which I missed
it direly... Oh, well, on with the important part.

What do we know about the relationship between Filch and Snape? Both are
hated by the students, one for being severe, strict and sometimes cruel, the
other one for being a nasty pest. There seemse to be no link between them.
But in PS, when Snape gets hurt, he goes to Filch who takes care for the
Fluffy-bitten leg. So Severus surely had to tell him what *exactly* he was
doing, or not? Why? Because he trusts Filch? Or because he thinks Filch
might be associated with the DL (no clues given here) and he wants to
protect his spy status? So he pretends he wanted to find out how save the
Stone actually was, or even present it to his former master and help him to
rise again?

In CoS when Mrs. Norris is stunned by the Basilisk Snape is there on Flichs
side - and he seems angry, very angry. On Filch's behalf?

I think there might be more to Filch than meets the eye...

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the register, and like
Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."         -
J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone




_________________________________________________________
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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 15:54:42 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:54:42 -0000
Subject: Snape as Double agent
In-Reply-To: <9c1gj6+pd1q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1j82+3dkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17454

On the matter of who was adressed by Lord V?s comment "one, to 
cowardly to return"

 "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:

> 
> Now, I admit that this theory *is* intriquing, but I stick to my 
> belief that Karkaroff *is* the cowardly one. Look at him in GoF! 
He's 
> always worming around, practically stalking Snape, crying "It's 
> coming back! It's coming back!" Snape himself tells him to "flee, 
> [he] will make [his] excuses. [Snape], however, [is] remaining at 
> Hogwarts." And Karkaroff *does* flee; how cowardly is that! :)

I also go for Karkaroff as the cowardly one and Snape as the one who 
has left Lord V forever.

The GoF quote Lyda put in raises another question for me. To whom will 
Snape make excuses for Karkaroff?s absence? Does it mean he will 
explain Karakroff?s sudden disappearance only to Dumbledore and the 
tournament organisers, or does it mean he will make the excuses to the 
ones who will REALLY be looking for him if he doesn?t turn up, meaning 
the DE?

A while ago someone suggested Snape was present at Lord V?s rebirthing 
party, and I objected strongly to it. However,Lyda?s GoF quote may let 
things appear in a different light...

> Also, I think that word of Snape's spying has no doubt made it's way 
> to Voldemort. PS/SS anyone? Voldie is right there on the back of 
> Quirrell's head all year, when Snape is suspicious of Quirrell; how 
> could he *not* realize where Snape's new alliances lie? Further, 
> Rebecca mentioned the "I believe" in Voldemort's statement about the 
> one who has "left [him] forever", and I too think that this 
admission 
> of uncertainty is quite important to future books, whether or not 
> Snape returns as spy.

Again, I agree. I think it is *impossible* that Lord V will receive 
Snape back. IMO there?s no way getting around it that Lord V *knew* 
Snape was a double agent, at least he knew from the time Snape openly 
changed sides.

So assuming Snape may try to convince Voldemort he?s changed sides 
*again* (I mean, how many of those fundamental decisions can you 
credibly make in your life?), I don?t think it would be wise even if 
Lord V could be made to believe it.

"I do not forget. I do not forgive."

 Remember how he used the Cruciatus curse on one DE (Avery, I think) 
who rejoined him instantly of his own accord, simply because he had 
avoided Azkaban. Remember Lord V telling the remaining DEs he wanted 
13 years repayment before he would truly accept them into his 
following again. Now imagine what kind of repayment Lord V would ask 
of someone who has not been biding his time (acting normal and 
respectable outwardly) but who has helped Lord V actively to his 
(first) downfall... I don?t think you?d be able to survive that 
repayment...

I mean Snape is a brave man, but to make him walk open-eyed towards 
such a fate it probably needs more than Dumbledore politely asking him 
to... 

No. Whatever Snape?s active role will be in the future books, I?m sure 
it?s not going to be the spy role all over again.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 02:56:32 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:56:32 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
Message-ID: <LAW2-F114KWiGtXsL1c000000c8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17455

Rebecca wrote:
<snip>
>It is possible that Snape lives in hope of finding a student who is 
>actually
>worthy of receiving the kind of advanced knowledge he possesses, and that 
>he
>is continually disgusted by the failure of most Hogwarts students to come
>anywhere near his ideal.
<snip>
There's much I can agree with here, and much I can't, but
I'll just ask (I know, I know, I said I wouldn't say any more on this!) that 
if he doesn't think Hermione is worthy, bearing in mind she knew the answers 
to his over-demanding questions in the first lesson *and* brewed the 
demanding polyjuice potion, which takes a month, from *books*, in her second 
year, then who could ever be good enough?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 19:20:31 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:20:31 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Percy?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F993Ltaxc1t7jf00012a3e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17456

Hi Mags :) !

<snip>
>I don't have a copy with me right now, but I think it's in Book 4
>that Ron says something like:
>
>'I reckon Percy'd do anything to succeed, even if it meant turning in
>his own family.'
>
>Could this be a glimpse into the future?

Well, it could, I suppose, but, like you, I can't believe Percy would do 
anything he knew to be wrong.  I think it's JKR messing with our heads.  
There are a couple of remarks from Ron about this, but I don't think he 
knows his brother very well.
>
>I don't think Percy would decide of his own accord to turn to the
>Dark Side, but I can see him being tricked or tempted over.  After
>all, he carried on following the orders 'Mr. Crouch' sent to him and
>didn't seem the slightest bit worried that he hadn't seen his boss
>for weeks.  Other people were suspicious of this, but Percy refused
>to even question the matter.  I think if Percy were given orders he'd
>follow them, and this is why I think he's more likely to be tempted
>than any other character.

Agree he could be tricked, but he will win through in the end.  I think JKR 
is setting up this kind of scenario.  Percy is incredibly loyal - his 
weakness and his strength.
>
>I know that Percy might seem to be too much of a 'goody two-shoes',
>but then again wasn't Tom Riddle, now the Dark Lord whom everyone
>fears, also Head Boy and 'model student'?  Is it really so unlikely
>that Percy will follow suit?

Yes, because Riddle was pretending to be a 'goody two-shoes' - Percy really 
is one.  He really cares about that shallow-bottomed cauldron report, and he 
really cares about his family.  Think how he waded into the lake to see that 
Ron was alright, in the Triwizard Tournament.
All this is just my opinion, and plenty of people will argue (and have 
argued) against it :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 16:07:57 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:07:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Double agent
In-Reply-To: <9c1j82+3dkk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423160757.24026.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17457


> So assuming Snape may try to convince Voldemort hes changed sides 
> *again* (I mean, how many of those fundamental decisions can you 
> credibly make in your life?), I dont think it would be wise even
> if Lord V could be made to believe it.
> 

Winston Churchill on the occasion of his returning to the
Conservative Party after bolting the Liberal Party (which he'd joined
after bolting the Conservative Party): "Anyone can rat.  It takes
courage to re-rat."

__________________________________________________
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From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 16:08:48 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:08:48 -0000
Subject: Consistancy in the Weasley Clock (was RE: Everything you've alway s wanted to know about Clocks)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DD8@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9c1k2g+iaaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17458

Oh well, I?m not the nitpicking kind normally, like I didn?t mind the 
Hogsmeade Pub changing its name between book 1 and 3 (might be Madam 
Rosmerta?s marketing idea, after all), nor did I mind Nearly Headless 
Nick ageing 100 years between book 1 and 2...

On the other hand, JKR is so incredibly consistant in many respects, 
like  a little phrase in book 1 you never really noticed suddenly 
becoming the key to one of the major mysteries in a later book... I 
think we?re just so used to everything making perfect sense that we 
over-react to some things that simply don?t. Those "mistakes" usually 
don?t matter much anyway.

I just realised the last paragraph should read "I" instead of "we", I 
just mean to say I?m not trying to hide behind that impersonal plural 
form...

However, Heidi has presented an excellent explanation to Mrs Weasley?s 
reaction, so I?ll just quote it for you and then shut up on the 
subject.

"Tandy, Heidi"  wrote:

4. She wasn't nervous until she looked at the newspaper in the 
morning &
> read all about the Dark Mark in the sky, etc., and then kicked 
herself for
> not having been looking at the clock the night before because she 
was
> enjoying a night alone  by catching up on reading-for-pleasure, 
taking a
> nice bath, all the other things mums do when they are left alone 
after a
> summer of dealing with large numbers of kids and didn't know WHAT 
was going
> on, because the clock has no *rewind* function, and just because 
they were
> set at *on holiday* at that moment didn't mean they were *on 
holiday* while
> recovering from injuries, separated from each other, momentarily 
tortured by
> death eaters, etc. 





From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Mon Apr 23 16:15:49 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:15:49 -0000
Subject: Harry and Draco
In-Reply-To: <011001c0cb78$61da89c0$190deda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9c1kfl+k8ld@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17459

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> You have to stop teasing us slashers this way <g>.  The first 
moment I saw
> the words 'Draco,' 'Harry,' and 'relationship'....

My profuse apologies to D/H slashers - didn't mean to tease!! LOL!

So the consensus seems to be that because Harry is famous Draco might 
want to be friends with him. I see the interaction in the robe shop 
differently than the interaction on the train. In the robe shop, 
Draco is just being friendly to a boy he doesn't know - he doesn't 
find out that he was Harry Potter until the train. So my question was 
why would he even want Harry as a friend (that is, on the train, 
after knowing who Harry is)? I understand that he's famous, but from 
what we know about the Malfoys I would have thought that he would 
want to keep his distance from Harry, while perhaps pretending to 
like him, as his father advises him to do. Perhaps it is jealousy 
that he grows to hate Harry or that he feels insulted. But I think 
there must be something else there; something that makes Draco think 
that Harry would be his friend despite being who he is, but I find it 
very out of character for Draco to assume that. Unless, and this is 
my conclusion, that he just doesn't know the first thing about how to 
deal with people. And again, this doesn't click into place completely 
for me.

Also, since Harry didn't know
> much about the Wizarding world at that point, perhaps Draco was 
playing on
> Harry not knowing which side Draco was on, or even what side Harry 
himself
> was supposed to be on.

But nobody knows that Harry didn't grow up with the knowledge of what 
happened to him and the side he was supposed to be on - except 
Hagrid. I think Draco presumes that Harry knew who he was and what 
side he was *supposed* to be on.

Thanks!!




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 16:24:13 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:24:13 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as Double agent
References: <f3.990e903.28154b05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e601c0cc11$d6cf6400$332c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17460

> Voldie uses the > Unforgiveable Curses--one Imperius curse, and I assume
anyone > under it would > be compelled to speak truth if so directed--
sheesh, it sounds like > that > curse could have you murder your best
friend.
> Aylihael

But from what we know of Snape he has a really strong will. It takes much
will to leave such a groups as the DE *and* cope with teachin where everyone
thinks you're a possible DE - let's not even talk from the will and strength
it takes to spy on such a powerful and dangerous (not to mention mad) wizard
as Voldemort...

And if Harry, who is already a great wizard but nontheless a kid, can shake
off the Imperius Curse after a few times, so can Severus, who is a great,
talented wizard as well.

~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the register, and like
Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."

---  J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 16:29:53 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:29:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Snape! Snape - Filch relationship (not the slashy POV <G>)
In-Reply-To: <00c701c0cc0c$bcdabea0$332c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010423162953.84344.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17461

> But in PS, when Snape gets hurt, he goes to Filch who takes care
> for the Fluffy-bitten leg. So Severus surely had to tell him what 
> *exactly* he was doing, or not? Why? Because he trusts Filch? Or 
> because he thinks Filch might be associated with the DL (no clues 
> given here) and he wants to protect his spy status? So he pretends 
> he wanted to find out how save the
> Stone actually was, or even present it to his former master and
> help him to rise again?


Snape could have told Filch that he was checking on things and Fluffy
got out of control.  Even if Filch was suspicious (and he doesn't
seem to be a profound thinker, so he probably wasn't), he is in no
position to question a professor.  As caretaker, Filch probably
operates on a need-to-know basis about things in Hogwarts: he knows
the kids aren't supposed to be up there but nobody said anything
about watching teachers.

There is an advantage for Snape in having Filch help with the
bandages: if he went to the hospital wing, Madame Pomfrey would ask
many more questions and probably have to write up some kind of report.

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr 23 16:32:20 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:32:20 -0000
Subject: Ron's delay (was: PoA comment), C&G
In-Reply-To: <9c18ph+aau2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1lek+i812@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17462

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> This reminds me of something else.  Has anyone ever heard Crabbe or 
> Goyle say anything?  Off the top of my head, I don't think they do 
> anything but snigger and grunt.  And yell if bitten by a rat, of 
> course.
> 
> Amy Z

I am guessing that you were wondering about this when you were 
compiling your opening gambits!  I must admit, this struck me as 
well - I am pretty sure that they do not say anything in direct 
quotes in any of the books.  It just reinforces the stereotype of 
brainless, sycophantic gorilla types, doesn't it?  Even Pansy 
Parkinson has spoken on occassion.

(Side note - I particularly noticed this when listening to Stephen 
Fry doing Harry and Ron as Crabbe and Goyle when they took the 
polyjuice potion - besides the fact that this scene is absolutely 
hysterical when read aloud, it also brought home to me that I didn't 
actually know - previously - what they sounded like...)

Catherine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Apr 23 16:28:59 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:28:59 -0400
Subject: Dudley nto a talker? (was re: C&G)
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8DEA@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17463

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Dudley says
*anything* in GoF, although obviously he does talk in the 3 prior books
("Where's the canon?" being his most memorable line)


> I must admit, this struck me as 
> well - I am pretty sure that they do not say anything in direct 
> quotes in any of the books.  It just reinforces the stereotype of 
> brainless, sycophantic gorilla types, doesn't it?  Even Pansy 
> Parkinson has spoken on occassion.
>



From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Apr 23 16:41:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:41:45 -0000
Subject: Consistancy in the Weasley Clock ... Nitpicking
In-Reply-To: <9c1k2g+iaaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1m09+s0tk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17464

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> Oh well, I?m not the nitpicking kind normally
<snips>

> On the other hand, JKR is so incredibly consistant in many 
respects, 
> like  a little phrase in book 1 you never really noticed suddenly 
> becoming the key to one of the major mysteries in a later book... I 
> think we?re just so used to everything making perfect sense that we 
> over-react to some things that simply don?t. Those "mistakes" 
usually 
> don?t matter much anyway.
<More snips>

, so I?ll just quote it for you and then shut up on the 
> subject.
<lots of snips>
*******************************
If not for nitpicking, this group would have ended long ago. Let's 
all face it ... nitpicking is what we *do*. Where else *can* we 
nitpick? Have you tried to even discuss HP with people who have not 
read it? 

There are books that you buy, read, and then either throw them away, 
give them away, donate them to the book drive, or sell them at a 
garage sale.

Then there are the books which occupy the top shelves in the  
bookcase. HP is one of them. These are the books we love and love to 
discuss, to the point of nitpicking over every page, paragraph, 
sentence, word, and illustration.

We are like family. Our common bind is our love of HP. If we did not 
love HP and love to pick it apart and enjoy it, line by line, and 
sometimes, even word by word, as in the case of the prepostion posts, 
what fun would this group be?

Some books get one-line reviews. HP has groups which have daily 
discussion posts. 

So please, do not just shut up. The mistakes *do* matter, but not in 
a negative way, rather in a curiosity kind of way. I wonder why she 
wrote that? I wonder why she did not write it this way. I wonder ... 
I wonder ... I wonder ... do you ever wonder too? 

Doreen, who recently joined Nitpickers Anonymous





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr 23 16:47:23 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:47:23 -0000
Subject: Death in GoF
In-Reply-To: <9c19fm+ql2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1mar+a1ei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17465

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Lucy wrote:
> 
> > > I was also much more affected by hearing it read.  Suddenly it 
hit 
> me
> > > just how quickly Voldemort could kill,
> 
> Amanda wrote:
> 
> > I think JKR did a great job of both catching how callous 
Voldemort 
> is,
> > how little life matters (that "Kill the spare" line is chilling), 
> and of
> > communicating how bad guys really kill people, how death happens.
> > Sudden. No warning. No opportunity to speak, no last words. Not 
the 
> way
> > deaths are usually handled in literature at all, and very 
effective. 
> I
> > was very impressed.
> 
> Me too, me too, me too, and this is why I can't understand the 
critics 
> who say HP is evil because "four people die in the first chapter of 
> GF" (this is by their addition, not mine), or because it's about 
evil, 
> or because there isn't always a happy ending.  If people think 
these 
> themes are too advanced for eight-year-olds, that's one thing, but 
as 
> for judging the books immoral on this basis, I couldn't disagree 
more. 
>  I firmly believe that literature should portray death the way it 
> really happens, which is often sudden, cruel, arbitrary, and 
without 
> apparent redemption.  If there is to be a happy ending for Cedric, 
the 
> reader will have to believe in heaven and imagine that that's where 
he 
> is now--which is fine.  But in the books, as for the rest of us 
here 
> on earth, all anyone knows for sure is that a kind and good young 
> person is dead for no good reason.  His parents are left to suffer, 
> there's no bringing him back, and the only consolation anyone can 
take 
> is that he died fast (and at a time that he was happy, as Mrs. 
> Diggory says) and his body wasn't left to be mutilated.  This, to 
my 
> mind, is exactly the kind of thing that makes HP such fine moral 
> literature.

.  
> 
> Thanks for letting me rant,
> Amy Z

At the risk of sounding me too (but I have talked about this line 
before, so I don't feel to bad about jumping in here) - I still find 
the "Kill the Spare" line the most chilling in all of the books.  For 
me, it sums up Voldemort and everything he and the Death Eaters stand 
for.  I find it absolutely terrifying that they can have such little 
regard for human life.  I also agree with the comments about the fact 
that usually in literature there is some build up to a person's 
death, and there is usually some kind of redemptive quality to it.  
Here it is simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong 
time.  

Cedric's death does, however, add another dimension to the whole 
Voldemort saga.  Until this point, most of the killings have been 
removed from the immediate action and the sphere of Harry's point of 
view.  Even Frank Bryce at the beginning had less of an impact, 
because he was such a minor character, and for Harry it seemed almost 
unreal because it was witnessed through a dream.  Cedric's death 
therefore has the effect of bringing death sharply into focus for 
Harry and his peers, giving JKR an opportunity to discuss it in a 
slightly different context - and to show also that when asked why 
something like this has happened, when something truly evil and 
pointless has occurred, that adults cannot possibly have all the 
reassuring answers and platitudes which are usually churned out.

Catherine






From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 16:47:23 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:47:23 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Nitpicking
References: <9c1m09+s0tk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012301c0cc15$131e3460$332c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17466

>We are like family. Our common bind is our love of HP. If we did not
>love HP and love to pick it apart and enjoy it, line by line, and
>sometimes, even word by word, as in the case of the prepostion posts,
>what fun would this group be?

Wonderfully stated Doreen. great group affirmative ;-) I lend other people
my HP books, even gave HP-books away as presents, but really never found
someone who really was interested in discussing them. And it's not just the
Nitpicks, it's also - as many of you can confirm - the wonderful characters
that you just get attached to.

Where else do you have the possibility to solve mysteries and use your
imagination to such an extent? Whodunit novels are nothing against what we
have on Harry!!!

~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the register, and like
Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."

---  J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 16:50:08 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:50:08 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_More_Snape!_Amanda=B4s_at_it_again!?=
In-Reply-To: <3AE4234E.A02882E8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c1mg0+oeuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17467

Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > Amanda has brought up the Snape issue again,

...by which she didn?t mean it had been settled (I hope it never will 
;)).

Amanda says:

> I think there's a big, big difference between ignoring something and
> sublimating it. Processing something without mentioning it is also 
not
> the same as ignoring. In my mind, ignoring something of magnitude is 
the
> same thing as lying to yourself, and with all Snape's faults, I 
don't
> think he does that. I think he takes some major-league convincing to
> even entertain the notion of changing a viewpoint, but once the 
evidence
> is presented I believe he takes it into account.

Ah, that?s really not as I understood it before. It now makes sense to 
me. I probably also didn?t take into account the he was *really* out 
cold most of the time in the Shrieking shack, so he doesn?t know even 
now that Sirius was neither a murderer nor on the dark side, does he? 
I wonder whether Dumbledore was wise to ask Snape to work together 
with Sirius without explaining even those basic facts to him...

Amanda on "autopilot":
 
> No, by emotional autopilot, I meant he's not really thinking about 
his> reactions too much, or involving a deeper level of himself.  It's 
not> unemotional, just uninvolved.
> This is more what I meant for Snape. His autopilot is a mode of
> nastiness, favoring Slytherin, making snotty comments, and having a 
dour> outlook. But he doesn't seem all that involved. 
> 
> Operating on an auto-mode is easier than having to think. I think 
he's
> been doing this as a teacher for years, and especially now when 
Harry is
> here, he doesn't want to revisit old thoughts and feelings. He has
> to--the associations are too clear--and I think this is the source 
of his especial nastiness to Harry and his friends.


That makes things a lot clearer for me again (poor Amanda, please 
don?t think you have to say everything twice to be understood, it?s 
just me that always has to be told twice to understand).

But I think Snape puts a lot of effort into his nastiness. Well, much 
of it just seems to be the automatically programmed reaction, but 
especially when it comes to Harry (bullying Harry in public, that is, 
which is not to be confused with bullying Harry in private like in 
PoA), his actions are usually extremely calculated. 

I do think his behaviour towards Harry is the direct result of 
(unwillingly and painfully) revisiting old thoughts and feelings. I 
don?t think "uninvolved" is the right word in that context.


Magda points out another key scene:

>> Rather it comes when
 Dumbledore asks him to step out of the room and Snape asks "You
haven't forgotten what he almost did to me?" (or words to that
effect; I don't have the book handy).  
It's a moment of vulnerability - the first we've seen of old Snape. 
 Will Dumbledore be swayed by the more likeable Sirius and Harry into
 turning against Severus who really, really craves Dumbledore's 
approval?
 And Dumbledore comes through: "My memory is as good as it ever was." 
And only then does Snape leave.I thought it was quite a touching 
moment, actually. << >>No revelation in GoF came close to it for 
showing what Snape is like underneath.<<

I agree it reveals a lot about Snape. But somehow I never thought of 
this dialogue as touching. I rather think that at the beginning of the 
argument, Snape wants to convince the others of Sirius being generally 
dangerous, a murderer who?s in league with Lord V and after Harry - 
merely repeating what the wizarding majority thinks about him anyway. 
Only when he realises Dumbledore will somehow not be convinced, he 
comes up with "Sirius tried to kill *me* so do something!!!" So the 
argument turns to personal hatred and vengeance and that is not very 
touching but rather childish, if understandable, IMO.

>>No revelation in GoF came close to it for showing what Snape is like 
underneath.<<

I disagree again. Snape showing his dark mark to Fudge was such a 
*magnificent* gesture you can?t really compare it. It tells us so many 
things - that Snape was a DE (I didn?t believe Dumbledore?s statement 
until then) but that he has renounced the dark side,  and that at the 
same time, he doesn?t mind his own reputation (among the students, 
parents and teachers who didn?t know) being severely shaken by 
revealing his secret, if it serves a higher purpose. 

(Don?t mind me, this scene was the moment I really fell in love with 
him).


Magda predicts
>> that as much as Harry would miss Dumbledore if the old
 wizard doesn't survive the series, it would be nothing compared to
 Snape's reaction.  Harry has Sirius, the Weasleys and others for
 support.  Snape will be shattered<<

except that I?m sure Snape will already have been physically shattered  
before Dumbledore decides to face the next great adventure...






From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 16:53:43 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <00e601c0cc11$d6cf6400$332c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010423165343.27003.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17468


I've been pondering this for awhile. While I think that JKR has done a
wonderful job of world building and characterization, I'm not so
certain that she's done the best job of setting down Magic Laws. I
almost wonder if she's deliberately not explained things well to allow
her more leeway in the future. Even now after the fourth book, I am
still confused on how magic in her world works. For example:

1) What exactly is a Charm? To me, a Charm means that something is
enchanted to perform a type of magic. However, this isn't always so in
JKR's world, examples Cheering Charms and Wingardium Leviosa. To me,
Wingardium Leviosa is a regular spell but it was taught in Charms. Why?
What distinguishes it?

2) What's the difference between Charms and a regular spell? And do the
Hogwarts students have a class for "regular" spells?For example, where
did the students learn Lumos? Or was that in Charms? Or are Charms
regular spells and I'm just confused?

3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding ingrediants
in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
me). 

4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability to hold a
happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a force
of will? 

5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at Hogwarts and
so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him out
the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them focus
their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without their
wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?

6) What in the frick is Arithmancy? Hermione keeps going to that class
but I'm still clueless on what it is. Magic with math? If so, give me
details!

I guess these are silly questions (and I have more of them somewhere),
but knowing the rules is important to me. I apologize if this has been
discussed to death. If it has, just let me know and I'll start the
arduous search of the archive. I figured that if anyone had these
answers, it would be this group!

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
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From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Mon Apr 23 16:54:54 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:54:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F114KWiGtXsL1c000000c8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0104231237330.28406-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17469

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Morag Traynor wrote:

> There's much I can agree with here, and much I can't, but
> I'll just ask (I know, I know, I said I wouldn't say any more on this!) that 
> if he doesn't think Hermione is worthy, bearing in mind she knew the answers 
> to his over-demanding questions in the first lesson *and* brewed the 
> demanding polyjuice potion, which takes a month, from *books*, in her second 
> year, then who could ever be good enough?

I would guess that Snape's not impressed by ability alone, but is rather
looking for a student who shares his passion for potions:

" 'As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly
believe this is magic.  I don't expect you will really understand the
beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the
delicate pwoer of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the
mind, ensnaring the senses.... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew
glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads
as I usually have to teach.' " (SS 137 -- still my favorite Snape
moment.)

I don't think "dunderheads" really does refer only to students (like
Harry *g*) who don't know things or make mistakes, what one might call
'stupid' students, but rather also to thick-headed philistines who can't
see the aesthetic art in potion-making.

Hermi is certainly a talented student, but she doesn't have any real
love of Potions, I don't think.  And thus she isn't what Snape is
looking for in a student.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.






From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 17:02:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:02:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Snape! Snape - Filch relationship (not the  slashy POV <G>)
References: <9brp8g+726r@eGroups.com> <3AE4234E.A02882E8@texas.net> <00c701c0cc0c$bcdabea0$332c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3AE4601A.3B25692E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17470

Dinah wrote:

> >But Amanda >tends to bring up Snape issues a lot, Amanda does

And even when she *swears* to herself that she'll shut up! Sorry....

> But in PS, when Snape gets hurt, he goes to Filch who takes care for
> the Fluffy-bitten leg. So Severus surely had to tell him what
> *exactly* he was doing, or not? Why? Because he trusts Filch? Or
> because he thinks Filch might be associated with the DL (no clues
> given here) and he wants to
> protect his spy status? So he pretends he wanted to find out how save
> the Stone actually was, or even present it to his former master and
> help him to rise again?

I'm assuming that Filch was helping Snape, because Snape didn't want any
of the professorial staff to know what had happened. He's keeping his
suspicions of Quirrell quiet, for whatever reason.

But Snape could just as easily simply have demanded assistance with no
word of explanation, or known about Filch being a Squib and mentioned it
(i.e., a threat), as to read any sort of alliance into it. Filch seems
to respect Snape, but that may be simply because Snape recognizes
Filch's authority and uses it ("You told me to come directly to you,
professor...") when even a lot of the students don't.

> In CoS when Mrs. Norris is stunned by the Basilisk Snape is there on
> Flichs side - and he seems angry, very angry. On Filch's behalf?

Actually, I've been scanning through the "Snape scenes," having
reclaimed my books, to look for the incidences of the "stepped forward"
language. In this scene, Snape stays in the shadows and his face has a
most peculiar expression, as if he's trying not to smile. Nor is he
identified as being particularly "beside" Filch; he's just one of the
professors who accompanies Dumbledore into Lockhart's office when they
examine Mrs. Norris.

So whatever he feels about Filch, I read this to indicate that he's not
the fondest of Mrs. Norris. Otherwise, Snape's amused at Filch's
bereavement, which I think is a bit cold even for him, but probably he's
happy that there's a good chance to focus blame on Harry.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 17:19:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:19:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:_More_Snape!_Amanda?s_at_it_again!
In-Reply-To: <9c1mg0+oeuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423171947.91358.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17471

> >>No revelation in GoF came close to it for showing what Snape is
> like underneath.<<
> 
> I disagree again. Snape showing his dark mark to Fudge was such a 
> *magnificent* gesture you cant really compare it. It tells us so
> many things - that Snape was a DE (I didnt believe Dumbledores
> statement until then) but that he has renounced the dark side,  and

> that at the 
> same time, he doesnt mind his own reputation (among the students, 
> parents and teachers who didnt know) being severely shaken by 
> revealing his secret, if it serves a higher purpose. 

Nope, I disagree with your disagreement.  The Dark Mark revelation
was important but by that point in the series (not just the novel) it
was clear that Lord V. was coming back and the normal rules didn't
apply anymore.  Also Snape was arguing on Dumbledore's side.

The "You remember?" comment in PoA took place when things were more
normal and the only issue was Sirius Black and his fate.  It's a
moment when Snape wondered if Dumbledore would turn against him.  I
don't think he was childish to ask the question; he just needed to
know the answer.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Mon Apr 23 17:18:52 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:18:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Double agent
References: <9c1j82+3dkk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE463FC.522AC6CC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17472

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> Lyda: Also, I think that word of Snape's spying has no doubt made it's
> way to Voldemort. PS/SS anyone? Voldie is right there on the back of
> Quirrell's head all year, when Snape is suspicious of Quirrell; how
> could he *not* realize where Snape's new alliances lie? Further,
> Rebecca mentioned the "I believe" in Voldemort's statement about the
> one who has "left [him] forever", and I too think that this admission
> of uncertainty is quite important to future books, whether or not
> Snape returns as spy.
>
> Again, I agree. I think it is *impossible* that Lord V will receive
> Snape back. IMO there?s no way getting around it that Lord V *knew*
> Snape was a double agent, at least he knew from the time Snape openly
> changed sides.

About the Quirrell thing. I'm reasonably sure that nobody, Snape
included, knew that Voldemort was in residence on Quirrell's head.
Voldemort knew this, too. All Snape suspected Quirrell of was trying to
steal the stone, and challenged his loyalty on the grounds of the
resultant betrayal of Dumbledore. I have no idea whether Snape had
suspicions of *why* Quirrell wanted the stone, but if he thought that
Quirrell was trying to resurrect Voldemort, I *really* don't think he'd
have left Dumbledore out of the loop. So Snape's actions in PS/SS are
consistent with a man trying to keep his cover as a "good guy."

So, the action in PS/SS should not, in and of itself, prevent Snape from
going back to Voldemort. Even though Snape was instrumental in foiling
Voldemort's purposes, Snape didn't know this, and Voldemort was hardly
in a position to let him know, unsure of Snape as he was.

But I can see a quite plausible scenario where Snape goes to Voldemort
and presents his past 12 or so years as a living hell of kowtowing to an
old Muggle-loving fool, putting up with Muggle students who didn't know
what end of a cauldron was up, wasting his talents, etc., etc., all to
be in this wonderful position of Trusted High-Ranking Professor when
Voldemort came back. And who could doubt that Voldemort was going to
return?

Voldemort's egotist enough to accept this. If Snape can explain away the
reasons that Voldemort thinks have made Snape leave him (which I *still*
think has something to do with Lily, but let that go), I think
Voldemort'll blast him a couple of Cruciatus just for grins and let him
back in. I think it is Voldemort's fatal flaw that he believes he can
detect all lies, which will keep him from doing the absolute tests like
Veritaserum or the Imperius Curse.

So I do think Snape's going to have to hook up with his old crew. And I
think he better watch his back. [Then again, if he *has* felt at all
cooped up or has other suppressed feelings over his tenure at Hogwarts,
he might positively enjoy having to blast, say, Mr. Goyle--in
self-defense, of course. Very releasing.]

> Remember how he used the Cruciatus curse on one DE (Avery, I think)
> who rejoined him instantly of his own accord, simply because he had
> avoided Azkaban. Remember Lord V telling the remaining DEs he wanted
> 13 years repayment before he would truly accept them into his
> following again.

Remember Lord V looking like a fool in front of all the DEs when Harry
escaped him again. Remember Lord V is lacking his "faithful servant"
now. I think he's not in as good a position to pick and choose as he
might have been, whether he admits this or not.

> Now imagine what kind of repayment Lord V would ask
> of someone who has not been biding his time (acting normal and
> respectable outwardly) but who has helped Lord V actively to his
> (first) downfall... I don?t think you?d be able to survive that
> repayment...

What Snape actually did was focus attention on the wrong man. Which
helped get the wrong man imprisoned, and left Peter Pettigrew free to
hide for 12 years and then assist Voldemort back. Snape could argue that
he did his job, and maintained his cover, and Wormtail was the one who
was free to seek Voldemort. Snape was doing HIS job, why wasn't
Wormtail? It wasn't HIS fault that Wormtail is a sniveling little weenie
that waited so long.....so I think Snape could explain this one, in the
right sort of "attitude" for Voldemort to take the bait.

> I mean Snape is a brave man, but to make him walk open-eyed towards
> such a fate it probably needs more than Dumbledore politely asking him
> to...

Someone had said that Dumbledore would never ask this. I don't think he
would. But I think that this has all been worked out, over quite a long
time and many discussions, and this *is* something that Dumbledore would
allow Snape to choose to do. It is our choices.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 17:40:37 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:40:37 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9btinj+ve0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17473

I?d like to go into what Lyda has called Snape?s anti-social 
behaviour.

Is his not venturing out of Hogwarts (again, we don?t know about that, 
we only haven?t met him anywhere else yet) a result of his exile 
there, or does it meet with his character?

Lyda writes:

> He *is* a good person, he has high principles, but he's 
> also become so dependent on his sarcasm, his cruelty, his cold 
> detachment from others. Bitterness and guilt has consumed him, he's 
> become a shadow of what he used to be. The goodness he once had (and 
> is still capable of regaining) is hidden underneath all the 
> bitterness and hatred and self-loathing that has ingrained itself 
> further into his personality.

Having stated before that I believe Snape to be an essentially *good* 
person, I never meant that he once was a particularly kind or friendly 
person. I think Sirius? description in GoF of how Snape was at school 
(although coloured by personal dislike, of course) is probably quite 
correct.

So I think  the sarcasm, the cruelty, the unpleasantness is not simply 
an adopted attitude or a mask but it is what Snape has always been 
like. And I don?t think he will change in  that respect. He won?t have 
to. I know quite a few people who simply *are* sour and unpleasant in 
the way they treat others, but deep down they know very well what is 
right and what is wrong, and they?re utterly reliable. They just don?t 
"waste their time", as they?d put it, on the emotional aspect of it. I 
imagine Snape to be one of them.

So now to the rosebushes.

Naturally those people have a harder time making friends, or finding 
partners, than others.

But don?t forget that while I certainly don?t doubt that everyone deep 
down longs to love and to be loved in return, these aspects do not 
have the same significance for all people.

 Magda writes:
> Personally I don't think that Snape has discovered girls yet;
> his blasting the rosebushes activities during the Yule dance is so 
> wonderfully in character as is his touching belief that taking 
points away will deter them from finding other bushes.<<
 
Koinonia replied:
> Let's face it. Snape is a man and is capable of having 
> loved just like anyone else. I believe Snape was in love at one time 
> and the kids in the rosebushes just brings back painful memories of 
> the one he has lost. If he can't be with the one he loved then they 
> are not going to get an opportunity to get close to the one they 
> like. So very like Snape!<<

Lyda agreed:
> I agree wholeheartedly with Koinonia; I think Snape was once in 
love,  and that he lost his loved one due to his involvement with the 
DEs. The rosebush business *does* bring back horrible memories and 
guilt for him. I also think that Severus is... er... rather 
*frustrated* in  some areas. ;) There are few (if any) teachers that 
are near his age at Hogwarts, and he doesn't venture into Hogmeade. 
Fourteen years of celibacy will get to a man, eventually, and seeing 
kids fooling around in rosebushes doesn't help much. :)
 Severus has these *very* deep, passionate emotions, but he also 
> has this extreme self-control with which he regulates and attempts 
to detach his emotions.<<


I do agree with Lyda, as I have the same notion about Snape?s past. 
Apart from that, I believe that the question of partnership and even 
of love in the sense of attraction between man and woman may lose its 
significance in unusual circumstances. 

And I believe Snape?s life has up to now been a row of unusual 
circumstances. I don?t think his main concern is that he can?t go 
down to Hogsmeade and have a drink at the pub and date a nice 
girl... Lyda, you?re doing injustice to men in general there (but 
maybe that was your intent - your luck that Snape threads tend to 
interest female fans only;-)).

Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t he? 
Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such things 
have lost their significance for him. 





From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon Apr 23 17:54:40 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:54:40 -0000
Subject: Snape as Double agent
In-Reply-To: <20010423160757.24026.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c1q90+9qlu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17474

 Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

Lea:
> > So assuming Snape may try to convince Voldemort he?s changed sides 
> > *again* (I mean, how many of those fundamental decisions can you 
> > credibly make in your life?), I don?t think it would be wise even
> > if Lord V could be made to believe it.
> > 

Magda: 
> Winston Churchill on the occasion of his returning to the
> Conservative Party after bolting the Liberal Party (which he'd 
joined
> after bolting the Conservative Party): "Anyone can rat.  It takes
> courage to re-rat."

Magda, this is so good. I know we tend to disagree very often but this 
time you?ve almost got me convinced.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Apr 23 18:21:27 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:21:27 -0000
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <20010423165343.27003.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c1rr7+k53m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17475

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> I've been pondering this for awhile. While I think that JKR has 
done a
> wonderful job of world building and characterization, I'm not so
> certain that she's done the best job of setting down Magic Laws. I
> almost wonder if she's deliberately not explained things well to 
allow
> her more leeway in the future. Even now after the fourth book, I am
> still confused on how magic in her world works. For example:
> 
> 1) What exactly is a Charm? To me, a Charm means that something is
> enchanted to perform a type of magic. However, this isn't always so 
in
> JKR's world, examples Cheering Charms and Wingardium Leviosa. To me,
> Wingardium Leviosa is a regular spell but it was taught in Charms. 
Why?
> What distinguishes it?
> 
> 2) What's the difference between Charms and a regular spell? And do 
the
> Hogwarts students have a class for "regular" spells?For example, 
where
> did the students learn Lumos? Or was that in Charms? Or are Charms
> regular spells and I'm just confused?
> 
> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
> magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding 
ingrediants
> in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
> me). 
> 
> 4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
> Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability to 
hold a
> happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a 
force
> of will? 
> 
> 5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
> without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at Hogwarts 
and
> so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him 
out
> the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them 
focus
> their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without their
> wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?
> 
> 6) What in the frick is Arithmancy? Hermione keeps going to that 
class
> but I'm still clueless on what it is. Magic with math? If so, give 
me
> details!
> 
> I guess these are silly questions (and I have more of them 
somewhere),
> but knowing the rules is important to me. I apologize if this has 
been
> discussed to death. If it has, just let me know and I'll start the
> arduous search of the archive. I figured that if anyone had these
> answers, it would be this group!
> 
> ~Amber
> 

This is a link to the definition of arithmancy.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/arithmancy.html   

About the wands, I think Rowling addressed the wand issue in an 
interview. IIRC, she said that her wizards CAN do magic without wands 
(such as the boa constrictor at the zoo in SS/PS) but it's an 
uncontrolled magic and very dangerous.

I would think that potions is a very tedious subject, almost like 
baking, where exact measurements of ingredients and specific 
techniques and order of addition of ingredients are needed to produce 
the correct potion. 

:-)Milz




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 18:21:55 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:21:55 -0000
Subject: ARGUS Filch
Message-ID: <9c1rs3+52uj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17476

Here's something interesting:
 An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.  

Hmmmmm...  Given the fact that people's names can revel things about 
them, like Remus Lupin or Sirius Black....   Hmmm...  Opens up all 
kinds of possibilities. 

Stephanie 




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Apr 23 18:04:04 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:04:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ARGUS Filch
References: <9c1rs3+52uj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE46E94.E9AC0A2F@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17477

Stephanie Roark Keener wrote:
> 
> Here's something interesting:
>  An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.

Well, actually there was only one of him, IIRC:  he "belonged" to
Hera, who set him to watch over one of Zeus's many
light-o'-loves.  Therefore he's a symbol of watchfulness. 
(Odysseus's dog was also named Argus).  That's our Mr. Filch, all
right!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Mon Apr 23 19:15:05 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:15:05 -0000
Subject: message 14910 - The bow in GoF, and tunnel question
In-Reply-To: <3AE4335D.4879D2FA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c1uvp+7jcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17478


> It's number 14910, and it has at least a plausible excuse for why Ron's not right there immediately.
> 
> I *don't* know why Harry didn't just wear the invisibility cloak all the way back to the dorm, though. Maybe he not only had to not be in Hogsmeade, he had to be in tangible evidence at Hogwarts?
> 
> --Amanda

I wasn't discounting your suggestions, Amanda.  In fact, I had put that 
whole notion on a shelf until the graveyard scene in GoF, V. Made Harry 
bow.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong - but he didn't seem to 
use a curse to do that.

Something I hadn't thought about - Snape knew where the entrance to 
that tunnel (behind the witch) was?  He would have to figure that Harry 
couldn't have just mosey'd down to Hogsmeade, true. We know Snape knew 
about the Whomping Willow tunnel. In order to have known where to be to 
catch Harry, though, I think Snape would have to have known about the 
candy shop tunnel (Honey...Honey...Honey Dew? No, that's not right.) as 
well.  Or do all the professors know about the tunnels (and not just 
Dumbledore and Filch -- and Fred/George)?

a.





From margdean at erols.com  Mon Apr 23 18:39:50 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:39:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
References: <20010423165343.27003.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE476F6.1F360CE4@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17479

Amber wrote:
> 
> I've been pondering this for awhile. While I think that JKR has done a
> wonderful job of world building and characterization, I'm not so
> certain that she's done the best job of setting down Magic Laws. I
> almost wonder if she's deliberately not explained things well to allow
> her more leeway in the future. Even now after the fourth book, I am
> still confused on how magic in her world works. For example:
> 
> 1) What exactly is a Charm? To me, a Charm means that something is
> enchanted to perform a type of magic. However, this isn't always so in
> JKR's world, examples Cheering Charms and Wingardium Leviosa. To me,
> Wingardium Leviosa is a regular spell but it was taught in Charms. Why?
> What distinguishes it?
> 
> 2) What's the difference between Charms and a regular spell? And do the
> Hogwarts students have a class for "regular" spells?For example, where
> did the students learn Lumos? Or was that in Charms? Or are Charms
> regular spells and I'm just confused?

It =is= confusing, but I'm coming around to the notion that a
"Charm" is a "regular" spell (i.e. one that doesn't fall into any
of the other categories, such as Transfiguration, Potion, etc.). 
Or maybe what distinguishes a Charm is that it's spoken?  That
would of course technically make the various Curses, Hexes, and
things like the Expecto Patronem also Charms, but it makes a
certain amount of sense to study those separately (in Defense
Against the Dark Arts).

(That also means that Charms = English class, if we're trying to
do equivalences.  :) )

> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
> magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding ingrediants
> in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
> me).

Good question, and I can't think of any canon examples that would
give evidence one way or the other.  Of course, a lot of the
ingredients would be accessible only to the wizarding community
under normal circumstances.
 
> 4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
> Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability to hold a
> happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a force
> of will?

(Speculation)  Could be that, could be other things such as
accurate visual imagination, the ability to hold a
complex/detailed process in your head, maybe a combination of
both.
 
> 5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
> without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at Hogwarts and
> so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him out
> the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them focus
> their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without their
> wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?

It may be harder for =any= wizard to focus magic without a wand. 
It could be also that the wand acts as an amplifier.
 
> 6) What in the frick is Arithmancy? Hermione keeps going to that class
> but I'm still clueless on what it is. Magic with math? If so, give me
> details!

Somebody already posted the relevant web address, I notice, but
the "short form" is that Arithmancy is divination by means of
numbers.
 
> I guess these are silly questions (and I have more of them somewhere),
> but knowing the rules is important to me. 

I can't help but be reminded of one of my math teachers in junior
high school, who stated "A question is only stupid if you already
know the answer."  Question away!  That's what we're here for!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 19:47:33 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423194733.50062.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17480

> Snapes outward appearance may reveal something about it. I dont 
> think hes actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
> looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
> certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldnt he?
> Snape doesnt seem to care at all. For me its a sign that such
> things have lost their significance for him. 

Go back to PS/SS and PoA and read the descriptions of Sirius Black
and Severus Snape - they could have been brothers at least.

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From schala at libero.it  Mon Apr 23 20:17:43 2001
From: schala at libero.it (Momiji)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:17:43 +0200
Subject: Why I lurk AND a question
In-Reply-To: <988048492.2945.75483.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20010423220700.00a5c760@popmail.libero.it>

No: HPFGUIDX 17481

Well...
I'm a lurker... but I have a reason... ^^;
I'm a Italian "girl" of 27 years old and I'm not good in English...
I' ve read all HP books in Italian and in English...
I love Harry!
Unfortunately my bad English cannot help me... To read is ok, but to 
write... You see... ^^;;;
I like this Mailing list! It's very interesting!!
Thank everyone!

Well... Bye for now!
And... about Harry fanarts...
Try to go here:

http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~maple3/harilink.html

It's a link very interesting ^^ (japanese fanarts)
Ciao!!!!
Momiji
--
"What's coming will come,
an' we'll meet it when it does."
-Hagrid   from "Harry Potter and the globet of fire"
Laura "Momiji" Angeli <schala at NOSPAMlibero.it> 




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 23 20:41:14 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:41:14 -0000
Subject: Let's Get Back to Harry!
Message-ID: <9c241a+9bco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17482

Hello Everyone!

I've been reading through the postings this week, and noticed that 
people aren't discussing Harry as much as I'd like.  I had some 
thoughts about Harry that I wanted to post, so here goes -

People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and talents, but 
I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.  What are they?  What 
are the things about Harry that could really end up hurting him?

I also have speculations about some of the magic Harry will be using 
in his coming years at Hogwarts.  I'm sure (once again) that this has 
been discussed before, but I believe he'll learn how to be an animagus 
like his father did.  What else might he be learning (and not from 
classes).  So far, much of his magical "aids" were given to him as 
gifts - the invisibility cloak the Marauders' Map, etc.  Will Harry 
learn how to do something quite complicated on his own?

I've also heard rumors that Harry might get expelled from Hogwarts 
(and obviously earn his way back in).  Can anyone see that actually 
happening?  What would that be like?

Okay - I can't think of anything else just yet.  Any thoughts? 

--jenny from ravenclaw***********************************




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Mon Apr 23 21:04:47 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:04:47 -0000
Subject: Snape & Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c18uf+gfbs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c25df+dcmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17483

Brian wrote:
> Dave,
> There's plenty to be read on this topic - for instance, I found this 
> tidbit from a yahoo search "harry potter" and "antichrist".  
> Really....
<snip>

I just read the article you pointed to, and my indignation meter is off 
the scale.  I mean, REALLY.
As a parent I should be wary of allowing my child to become fascinated 
with Harry Potter because Harry uses DRUGS?  The very idea that Snape's 
speech in the first potions class could be construed as endorsement/
encouragement for drug (aka potion) use is ludicrous.
Then again, Snape is supposed to be REALLY good at potions.  Maybe V. 
would be willing to take Snape back in order to get his fix. 

Seriously, though, (and on - topic :^), is it possible that some of the 
measures V. used in his quest for immortality were potions?  In the 
graveyard, he says that his DEs knew the measures he had taken to 
ensure his longevity (not those words).  As such a good potions brewer 
and a "loyal" DE, wouldn't it have fallen to Snape to brew some of the 
potions?
If Snape were to return (with the couldn't get away when you called 
last time, but I've been waiting for you and got myself in good with 
the muggle-lovers -- and the acceptance of a couple cruciatus) would he 
assume the brewing duties again?  I'm assuming that V still doesn't 
want to die, and that his new body doesn't have the protections that 
his old one had (it is, after all, new).  He'll have to start the 
"anti-death" treatments over again.  Maybe Snape and Dumbledore have 
discovered that a few extra/too few drops of ingredient X will render V 
powerless, without changing the general appearance/substance of the 
potion?
I just figure that Lord V is not going to have time for both RULING and 
doing menial tasks like brewing potions (and while he let Wormtail brew 
one, I think that was necessity, not something he would ordinarily have 
done).
Just another train from la la land.
a.





From litalex at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 21:23:02 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <20010423165343.27003.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010423212302.6678.qmail@web1203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17484

Hello,

--- Amber <reanna20 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be
> made by people with
> magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply
> adding ingrediants
> in the right order, the right way (or at least it
> seems that way to
> me). 

It actually does sound like anyone with the right
ingredients, a caudlon (sp), and enough time on their
hands can do it.  Muggles probably can't because they
don't have the ingredients (e.g., unicorn hair).  I
suspect, however, squibs can.

> I guess these are silly questions (and I have more

As all my high school teachers insist, no question is
silly.  What's silly is when you don't ask.

little Alex

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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 23 21:30:18 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:30:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <3AE39903.7E8914D2@swbell.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010423140831.00c48880@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17485

At 09:52 PM 4/22/01 -0500, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>I was hoping someone would report in on whether this book was trash or
>at least worth reading for an intellectual exercise.

It is worth reading for the intellectual excercise of seeing how many
logical fallicies one can spot.

>I'd been toying with ordering it (doesn't
>it say something that the brick & mortar bookstores don't carry it
>in-stock .... will only "special -order" it?  At least that's the case
>in Houston, and I imagine that it's true elsewhere if true in Texas,
>home of the Bible Belt).

I'll send you my copy when I'm finished with it.  (I think the less money
that actually goes to the author, the better.)

>Dave -- please write a review over on Amazon as the "good" reviews were
>outweighing the "this is a load of garbage" reviews the last time I
>checked.

I will -- And I will also point out some of his fallacies as well.

>Have you checked out the articles on the HP Culture & Religion site?
>Here's the URL:
>
>http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_00.htm

Thanks -- This helps a lot.

Another tidbit from the book: He says that Hagrid is immoral
because he kept an illegal dragon and implies that if Harry
were a decent God-fearing Christian he would have turned
Hagrid in.  (Paging Barty Crouch, Sr.!)



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 23 21:31:38 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:31:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c18uf+gfbs@eGroups.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010423134633.03ddac80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17486

At 12:58 PM 4/23/01 +0000, dorband at uwp.edu wrote:
>Dave,
>There's plenty to be read on this topic - for instance, I found this
>tidbit from a yahoo search "harry potter" and "antichrist".
>Really....
>
>http://www.pawcreek.org/Harry%20Potter.htm
>
>
>Nothing is too odd to consider.  Good luck on your speech.

Thanks -- But I'd better stick to refuting this book --
Things like the above are too much in the realm of
"Soapy Sam" to try to argue with.

Of course, the subject of "Snape as Drug-Pusher" has come up here
before; and the idea of the Dursleys as caractures of God-Fearing
Christians is absurd -- To paraphrase Sir Thomas Moore, I can easily
see Vernon, Petunia and Dudley "snoring through the Sermon on the
Mount."



                                                 -- Dave




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Mon Apr 23 21:36:14 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:36:14 -0000
Subject: Karkaroff (was Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?)
In-Reply-To: <9c0b28+qotg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c278e+9akj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17487

<snip>
> **************
> It was my impression that the DE were not all that loyal. The minute 
> that Voldie was "defeated/weakened", they all tucked tail and ran 
> back to the "other side" with excuses about being mesmerized or such 
> nonsense. Wormtail went into 12 years of hiding. The minute that 
> Karakoff found out V was back, he lit out of Hogwarts like a streak. 
<snip>
> Doreen, tossing her two kernels of corn into the pot.
> **************

Doreen's kernels got me thinking.  How do we know that Karkaroff didn't 
go back to V?  We know that he left Hogwarts (but I can't remember who 
told us, was it Snape?).  Do we know for a fact that he didn't go back 
to V?  We assume, because he turned in a DE or two, that he'd be too 
afraid to go back, but did he do anything much worse (or much more 
disloyal to V.) than the rest of them did?  Figure he'll do his 
Cruciatus and beg forgiveness?
I'm trying to remember his trial.  I seem to recall that although he 
reels off a list of names, most of them were already caught/killed or 
something.  He can only be credited with the capture of one or two 
IIRC.
So, if Karkaroff went back to V, then there are other possibilities.
How about Snape as the coward who will be punished, and Fudge as the 
one who has left forever who will be killed?
Seam-rippers at the ready, everyone?
a.





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 21:56:32 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff (was Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?)
In-Reply-To: <9c278e+9akj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423215632.282.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17488

> How do we know that Karkaroff didn't go back to V?  

Because JKR would have mentioned it.  A really good fiction writer
would not have left a thread that big dangling in the last chapter. 
What would be the point?

Perhaps he will return to the DEs in the fifth or sixth book but
considering his lack of backbone, I doubt that Lord V. would use him
for anything but target practice.


> How about Snape as the coward who will be punished...

Why do you think Snape is a coward? 

> and Fudge as the one who has left forever who will be killed?

I would be surprised if Fudge was more than at best a bureaucratic
twit or at worst a ministry turncoat funneling secrets to the Dark
Side without doing anything icky that might stain his robes.  He's
not important enough to be categorized that way by Lord V.

And his antics at the end of GoF certainly don't look like a man
who's absolutely free of suspicion of working for the Dark Side.


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From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 11:34:30 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:34:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
Message-ID: <LAW2-F378YhAkZLQElt0000fb4a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17489

lea wrote:

>At The Burrow, there is a clock with a hand for each member of the
>Weasley family, showing where or how they are: work, home,
>travelling... there is one section that says "mortal peril".
>
>When the dark mark appeared at the Quidditch world cup, Mrs Weasley
>was in quite some state, actually thinking the other Weasleys might
>have been killed. She was clearly thinking there was a possibility
>that "the last thing she ever said to F and G was they didnt get
>enough OWLs".
>
>Dont you think she might have saved herself the trouble if she had
>taken one look on the clock and realised there was no danger?
>
While I agree that it didn't necessarily amount to mortal peril, there was 
some danger - out of control DEs, Barty on the loose, not to mention Amos 
Diggory being a bit "wand happy"...

Besides, Mums are ingenious in finding ways to worry about their offspring! 
:)

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From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Mon Apr 23 22:12:43 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:12:43 -0000
Subject: tunnel question
In-Reply-To: <9c1uvp+7jcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c29cr+euv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17490

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> 
> Something I hadn't thought about - Snape knew where the entrance to 
> that tunnel (behind the witch) was?  He would have to figure that 
Harry 
> couldn't have just mosey'd down to Hogsmeade, true. We know Snape 
knew 
> about the Whomping Willow tunnel. In order to have known where to 
be to 
> catch Harry, though, I think Snape would have to have known about 
the 
> candy shop tunnel (Honey...Honey...Honey Dew? No, that's not 
right.) as 
> well.  Or do all the professors know about the tunnels (and not 
just 
> Dumbledore and Filch -- and Fred/George)?

 If Dumbledore, Filch or Snape knew about the tunnel into hogsmeade, 
they would have told the dementors to guard it (from the honeydukes 
end of course). At this time in the book, they thoght SB was guilty 
and a threat to the school; this was just after the attack on the Fat 
Lady. I find it highly unlikely that Snape would know about the 
tunnel and not mention it to either the dementors or Dumblydorr, he 
wanted Black caught as much as anyone.


Dai




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 23 22:29:50 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:29:50 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Karkaroff (was Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?)
In-Reply-To: <20010423215632.282.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9c278e+9akj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010423152302.00c4bc70@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17491

At 02:56 PM 4/23/01 -0700, Magda Grantwich wrote:
>Perhaps he will return to the DEs in the fifth or sixth book but
>considering his lack of backbone, I doubt that Lord V. would use him
>for anything but target practice.

Of course, that's what we used to say about Wormtail...

> > How about Snape as the coward who will be punished...
>
>Why do you think Snape is a coward?

*We* don't, but maybe V does...

Of course, Karkaroff and Snape are whom JKR *wants* us
to think V is talking about, but maybe they're completely different
people...?  I'm starting to think that for all we know, it's
the Bulgarian MoM and Old Archie!

> > and Fudge as the one who has left forever who will be killed?
>
>I would be surprised if Fudge was more than at best a bureaucratic
>twit or at worst a ministry turncoat funneling secrets to the Dark
>Side without doing anything icky that might stain his robes.

I think Fudge is probably just a typical politician, afraid to rock the
boat.  I even think he may know in his heart that Dumbledore is
right and V is back.  But political career comes first -- Let's keep
our priorities straight!



                                                 -- Dave




From john at walton.to  Mon Apr 23 23:11:53 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:11:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c17vh+t7qa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B70A64D5.111%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17492

on 4/23/01 1:42 PM, Amy Z at aiz24 at hotmail.com wrote:

> What goes on in HP has nothing to do with Paganism other than its
> positive valuation of magic and the word "witch."  This is enough to
> send people like the HP and the Bible author around the bend.  A lot
> of Christian fundamentalists don't need to know anything else about HP
> or Wiccanism, because the Bible says "you shall not suffer a witch to
> live," and that settles the matter for them.  Never mind that it is
> quite unclear what the Bible means by a witch.

::nodnodnod:: As a Wiccan Pagan, I'm very glad to see that this is
recognised by at least *somebody*...

> On the other side, HP's positive use of the word "witch" is enough to
> make some Wiccans cheer for it--but HP is not about Wicca, witchcraft
> in the religious sense, or Paganism.

I do cheer for it -- as a *fictitious* book with characters I enjoy. Much as
I'd cheer the Narnia series, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Avalon books, Bernard
Cornwell's Arthur trilogy (need I go on?). These are all books in which we
see magic at work. It doesn't have to be ritual magic, but the magic that's
inside all of us. </mistyvoice>
 
> Plenty of Christians are able to see Paganism as a separate religion
> that doesn't threaten their own any more than Judaism or Islam does.
> And plenty of Christians =and= Pagans are able to see that HP isn't
> really about either of their religions.

::enthusiastic thumbs-up:: Precisely. I have no bones about Christianity. In
fact, it's rather nice that early Christians felt that they should celebrate
their own holidays at the same time as us Pagans -- Christmas falls soon
after Yule, Easter falls around Beltane time, Hallowe'en is Samhain
(pronounced SOW-inn [sow as in pig, not as in reap]), Candlemas is Imbolc,
and so on throughout the year.

I also like how Christianity has taken elements of Paganism into its
"mysteries". (By "mysteries" I mean the central tenets of the religion, not
hocus-pocus.) The Virgin Mary (mother of God) is similar to the mother
Goddess. The sacrificed Christ figure is very reminiscent of the sacrificed
God who is born again in the new year. So, if you take a cold hard look at
the two mysteries, there ain't all that much between 'em :)

> So far, so good.  But neither is Wicca, the religion, "occult" in the
> sense that its critics often mean it.  I expect that one thing the
> author of _HP & the Bible_ means by "occult" is "Satanic."  Wicca is
> not about Satan-worship--quite the opposite.  I would be cautious
> about implying "HP is good, occultism is bad, HP isn't occultism,"
> because it accepts the all-too-vague (and pejorative) definitions of
> occultism.

Yeah. The whole "you're a witch, therefore you worship Satan" really gets my
goat (Mike G., are you there?). Heck, I don't *believe* in Satan, let alone
worship him. I honestly believe in taking responsibility for my own mistakes
rather than the (IMEverSoHO) cop-out of saying "Oh, gee, it's Satan's fault
I did X or Y".

Also, as I explained to my parents: "Wicca is occult, not a cult". There's
no one charismatic leader, nor even one lone sect or type of path to follow.

--John
____________________________________________

Remember: Socks then Shoes.

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 23:35:10 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:35:10 
Subject: Fudge (was Karkaroff / Hufflepuffs)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F93b4g3Sv0YKpD00000100@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17493

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>
>I think Fudge is probably just a typical politician, afraid to rock the
>boat.  I even think he may know in his heart that Dumbledore is
>right and V is back.  But political career comes first -- Let's keep
>our priorities straight!

It may be a red herring of course, but I think there are reasons to suspect 
Fudge of deeper involvement with the DE's.  He goes out of his way to 
blacken Sirius in the Three Broomsticks and reveals that he was first on the 
scene after the explosion caused (we now know) by Pettigrew.  Did he fix the 
Muggles' memories?  Does he know something?  He certainly seems anxious to 
prevent certain people from talking.  First Sirius, then Crouch jr.  In the 
first case, you could explain his actions by assuming he believed S to be 
guilty, but in the second, Crouch was a valuable witness, and Fudge's prompt 
action rendered him useless.  He doesn't come across as a bumbling 
bureaucrat there, IMO.  At the very least, I bet Crouch jr knew something 
about exactly how Fudge got his job - the one Crouch snr was tipped for, 
before his son's DE history came out.
_________________________________________________________________________
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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 23:40:48 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death in GoF
In-Reply-To: <9c1mar+a1ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423234048.18483.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17494


--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> I also agree with the comments about the fact
> that usually in literature there is some build up to a person's 
> death, and there is usually some kind of redemptive quality to it.  
> Here it is simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong 
> time.  

Hmmm. Well, if you think about it, it's not a surprise that usually
there's a buildup. It seems to me that many novels/books focus on main
characters. There usually aren't many secondary characters, or if there
are, they're not involved in the action. And if you're going to kill
off a major character, there has to be some sort of buildup. I mean,
you can't just have a major character drop out of sight, it just
doesn't work. 

The difference with JKR is that she does have many secondary characters
that are very close to the "action". So she's in the position where she
can kill one off quickly. I know a couple of other authors with the
same world situation who has characters killed quite frequently and
callously like JKR did.

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 23:44:07 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <9c1rr7+k53m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010423234407.23620.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17495


--- Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> This is a link to the definition of arithmancy.
> http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/arithmancy.html   

Hmmm. Divination with numbers. I'm not surprised that Hermione is drawn
to it!

> About the wands, I think Rowling addressed the wand issue in an 
> interview. IIRC, she said that her wizards CAN do magic without wands
> (such as the boa constrictor at the zoo in SS/PS) but it's an 
> uncontrolled magic and very dangerous.

<sigh> Well then, why couldn't she have mentioned that in one of her
four books! Eh, well, I guess the focus of the books isn't on magic but
on the ultimate battle between good and evil. But still...

Thanks for the answers!

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 23 23:49:18 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <3AE476F6.1F360CE4@erols.com>
Message-ID: <20010423234918.4633.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17496


--- Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com> wrote:
> It =is= confusing, but I'm coming around to the notion that a
> "Charm" is a "regular" spell (i.e. one that doesn't fall into any
> of the other categories, such as Transfiguration, Potion, etc.). 
> Or maybe what distinguishes a Charm is that it's spoken?  That
> would of course technically make the various Curses, Hexes, and
> things like the Expecto Patronem also Charms, but it makes a
> certain amount of sense to study those separately (in Defense
> Against the Dark Arts).

Hmmm, that makes more sense. I guess I just assumed that there was a
general spell class due to the "Standard Book of Spells". Of course,
there's no Charms textbook assigned in the first year so maybe I
should've made the connection.

> Good question, and I can't think of any canon examples that would
> give evidence one way or the other.  Of course, a lot of the
> ingredients would be accessible only to the wizarding community
> under normal circumstances.

Too true. I was wondering about Filch or other Squibs who do have
access to the wizard community and such ingrediants.

> It may be harder for =any= wizard to focus magic without a wand. 
> It could be also that the wand acts as an amplifier.

Hmmm, now that does make sense. Guess its just me assuming and getting
confused between magic worlds between different books...

Thanks for the answers!

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 00:16:38 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:16:38 -0000
Subject: More Snape! Snape - Filch relationship 
In-Reply-To: <00c701c0cc0c$bcdabea0$332c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9c2gl6+v30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17497

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote:

> 
> In CoS when Mrs. Norris is stunned by the Basilisk Snape is there 
on Flichs
> side - and he seems angry, very angry. On Filch's behalf?


Ah.....when one doesn't have the book with them!  What I remember 
about this is that Snape is standing in the background with an 
amused 'trying hard not to laugh' look on his face.  Picture this 
rock solid cat lying there with Dumbledore and McGonagall placing 
their nose almost on the cat.  It would be faily amusing :)  I 
believe there is more to Mrs. Norris and Filch.  One day we will 
probably look back on this scene in a whole new light.

I believe Snape then questions the threesome as to where they have 
been.  He always gets a tad upset when he can't nail them on 
something.

Koinonia





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 00:34:17 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:34:17 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c2hm9+oppn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17498

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:

> Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
> think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
> looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
> certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t he? 
> Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such 
things 
> have lost their significance for him.


I replied to this a couple of minutes ago and for some reason it 
didn't make it.  Sorry if it turns up later!

If Snape's outward appearance is due to his lack of social contacts 
and just plain neglect, then he has been this way for most of his 
life.  I know there is also a theory that Snape just doesn't want any 
of the young students or any other young lady to have an interest in 
him.  How do we explain the fact that he came to Hogwarts already 
oily, slimy, and greasy :)  It seems he has been this way for quite a 
while.  I don't believe an 11 year old cared yet about the girls 
looking at him or that there was nothing significant in his life.

Koinonia




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr 24 00:30:53 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:30:53 -0400
Subject: Snape and Voldemort - Potions
References: <9c25df+dcmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE4C93D.8F6396A5@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17499

aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:

> Seriously, though, (and on - topic :^), is it possible that some of the
> measures V. used in his quest for immortality were potions?  In the
> graveyard, he says that his DEs knew the measures he had taken to
> ensure his longevity (not those words).  As such a good potions brewer
> and a "loyal" DE, wouldn't it have fallen to Snape to brew some of the
> potions?

Oh, my!  This is the best reason I've seen yet for Voldemort
being willing to take Snape back even if he isn't 100% sure of
his loyalty.  Snape is, after all, one of THE most skilled potion
brewers around (cf. Lupin in PoA stating that Snape is one of the
few wizards who can put together a Wolfsbane Potion
successfully).  And in the very first book, in his opening speech
to his class, Snape tells them he can "even stopper death" with a
potion.  Sounds like he's had some previous experience, yes?

(And might that have been part of how V. lured Snape in the first
place, by making him feel as if his particular skill was
appreciated and needed?)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 01:17:11 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:17:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie casting problems
Message-ID: <15.1324c6fa.28162e17@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17500

i think draco malfoy looks like a fat farmboy from the 1800's
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 01:19:10 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:19:10 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP morally questionable? Discuss...
Message-ID: <7e.14180192.28162e8e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17501

harry potter isn't morally questionable, it questions are morals...discuss
Joe 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 01:21:38 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:21:38 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <94.132a2110.28162f22@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17502

Maybe it is because of the fact the durslys are muggles,or perchance blood 
related, mabye a fidulis charm???
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 01:25:10 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:25:10 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <B70A64D5.111%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c2klm+l244@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17503

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:

> Yeah. The whole "you're a witch, therefore you worship Satan" 
really gets my
> goat (Mike G., are you there?). Heck, I don't *believe* in Satan, 
let alone
> worship him. I honestly believe in taking responsibility for my own 
mistakes
> rather than the (IMEverSoHO) cop-out of saying "Oh, gee, it's 
Satan's fault
> I did X or Y".

Not all Christians believe that either. I recently made a comment 
very similar to the one above to a friend of mine who was 
interviewing me about Christianity: "Of course I believe there is 
evil in the world, but I also believe that blaming it on Satan is a 
cop-out. We are the ones who are responsible for evil. Humanity is 
flawed and we need to admit that."

Harry Potter is not about any type of religion, and I think it's 
ridiculous when people try to make it about religion. Jo has stayed 
away from thattopic quite studiously (wise of her, I think). My ex-
boyfriend's mother, who is as Bible-thumping Christian as one can 
get, loves them and I know a priest who reads them. In fact, the only 
person I know in RL who has turned her nose up at them for religious 
reasons is a friend of mine who's Wiccan -- she doesn't like the 
hocus-pocus distortion of magic.

Stacy




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 01:30:52 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:30:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How the Fidelius Charm works: a theory
Message-ID: <1e.14affc5a.2816314c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17504

Totally disscussed probobly but if hedwig can find sirus for harry, why isn't 
MOM sending their owls out to track him??? 
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 01:35:31 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:35:31 -0000
Subject: Death in GoF
In-Reply-To: <20010423234048.18483.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c2l93+llt0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17505

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:> The 
difference with JKR is that she does have many secondary characters
> that are very close to the "action". So she's in the position where 
she
> can kill one off quickly. I know a couple of other authors with the
> same world situation who has characters killed quite frequently and
> callously like JKR did.

Plus, it shows the blatant disregard for human life that Voldemort 
has. He just doesn't care. He doesn't even think twice about 
murdering a 17 year old boy who has done *nothing.* Cedric wasn't 
given the chance to fight back, Harry couldn't defend him, it was 
just over. Like a drive-by shooting that hits the wrong person.

Stacy




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 24 01:33:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:33:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
References: <20010423165343.27003.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE4D803.E22E4920@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17506

Great thread. Got me thinking. :::delicately ignores groans echoing
faintly from around the globe:::

Amber wrote:

> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
> magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding ingrediants
> in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
> me).

Well, that's the way cooking seems to me. And I'm passable, and I do the
occasional really good thing. But I have no "feel" for cooking, I can't
go into a kitchen and "invent" the way my husband can, can't look in the
fridge or the spice cabinet and think, that'd go great with X here, and
make a wonderful dish. My dad could. One of my friends can. Great chefs
don't do anything else, they have to think about writing a recipe down.

So for Potions, yes, I think you must have a talent for it, and given
the nature of the beast, it must be a magical talent. Harry and Ron can
"cook." Hermione's a good cook. Snape's a chef.

> 4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
> Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability to hold
> a happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a
> force of will?

Well, this is going to sound loopy. [I'm certain you all thought I was a
paragon of sanity and stability up to this point.] I think part of what
makes a spell difficult is the degree to which it imposes your will on
the world. If imposing your will on the world includes imposing your
will on another person, it's harder still. Unless I'm mistaken, this
holds true for some new age magic philosophies, too--it's easier to
"create" a parking space than to make yourself invisible to a cop as you
speed by.

This is off the cuff, I could be totally out there. But with the
patronus spell, you're not just imposing your will on another being, but
actively opposing what that other being wants to do, *and* you have to
fight the effects of that being at the same time by focusing postive
thoughts. Jeez, no wonder it's hard.

As for what makes a Charm, my hazy idea has been blown by Wingardium
Leviosa (unless, although Flitwick the Charms teacher taught the class,
it was an "intro to magic" class). But here goes. Charms seem to fall
into the category of spells worked on others. When people get charmed or
enchanted in stories, it's a viewpoint thing, like a love charm.
Frequently it's permanent. I had thought that Charms had to do with such
things, and as they fall into the category of spells which impose your
will on others, the students didn't start Charms until they'd learned
some "standard" spells and thus the method of magic. You play scales on
your flute, until you learn how the flute works.

I think the more you are trying to impose your will on the world, the
more force of will is required, and learning that has to be by "feel,"
the way high-blood-pressure patients can learn, when hooked up to a
monitor, how to lower their blood pressure. It's nothing anyone can
explain; it's something they have to do to learn. And I think the people
who are "naturals" at the focusing, in addition to having a strong will,
are the great wizards.

> 5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
> without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at Hogwarts
> and so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him
> out the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them
> focus their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without
> their wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?

I think this is exactly what wands do, focus and direct the magic (a la
Christopher Stasheff's Her Majesty's Wizard, etc.). I think many adults
can do it wandless. I've posted on wandless vs. "wanded" magic before. I
think wandless magic is dangerous, because it is so diffuse and must be
so powerful to work. All the "official" wandless magic we've seen is
regulated--animagus spells and apparating. There's probably others
(Dumbledore's "I don't need a cloak to be invisible" springs to mind).

However, most of the wandless magic we've seen has to do with the person
casting it. Animagus spells and apparation are cast on oneself. Most of
the things Harry did were to himself--growing his hair back, putting
himself on the roof, etc. And the things he did to others were in
self-defense.

Sooo, I hereby put out a theory that wandless magic can only be done
with some connection to oneself. It requires a wand to direct magic at
other things or people. Any thoughts? I just now thought of this and it
sounds ingenious. <g>

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 24 01:37:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:37:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why I lurk AND a question
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010423220700.00a5c760@popmail.libero.it>
Message-ID: <3AE4D8D0.2168E930@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17507

Momiji wrote:

an entire post apologizing for bad English, which contained not one
single misspelled word or bit of incorrect grammar. I am humbled by all
of you who speak English as a second language and do it so well. You
should have *seen* me trying to make change in Polish at a pretzel
stand....

Momiji! Post more! Tell us cool things about the Italian translations!

--Amanda




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Apr 24 01:34:42 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:34:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
References: <20010423234918.4633.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AE4D832.B087D091@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17508



Amber wrote:

> > Good question, and I can't think of any canon examples that would
> > give evidence one way or the other.  Of course, a lot of the
> > ingredients would be accessible only to the wizarding community
> > under normal circumstances.
>
> Too true. I was wondering about Filch or other Squibs who do have
> access to the wizard community and such ingrediants.

We know that wizarding potions and charmed goods work on Muggles - witness Dudley with the ton-tongue toffee, or hermione's present to her parents of the toothflossing stringmints - and at some point, there is a mention of FIlch using a Mrs
Scour's cleaning potion, so they certainly can be used by muggles & squibs. Whether a muggle or squib could create things from the ingredients is still up in the air.




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 02:50:44 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:50:44 -0000
Subject: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door
Message-ID: <9c2pm4+fkal@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17509

Hi:

For Harry Fortnight, we sure are talking a lot about Snape! (Not that 
I mind.)  ;)

I'm wondering if this isn't, after all, an accident.  Snape seems to 
be the prism that focuses Harry's antagonism throughout the books.  
Draco Malfoy might be called his school enemy, but what have they 
really done except trade hexes and insults?  The Dursleys--well, 
Harry expects them to treat him rudely and neglectfully, but he's 
self-sufficient enough that this can usually be treated as a banal 
given (except when Marge is around).  Voldemort is the stuff that 
nightmares are made of, but Harry doesn't (yet) live in a nightmare 
world.  

Snape is something else again.  Nobody (except for Marge, and for 
similar if less constant reasons) can make Harry see red like Snape.  
If Snape would love to get something on the Troika [loved that, Neil 
and Haggridd!] Harry would love to score points off Snape.  Without 
Snape's presence, Harry wouldn't have to practice much self-control 
in the face of anger.  Without that, maybe he wouldn't have kept his 
will in the duel with Voldemort.  That's a mere speculation on my 
part, but it does seem to me at least that nothing and nobody does 
such a good job of focusing Harry's angers and frustrations into one 
solid beam as Snape does.  

With interesting results.  We know (at least abstractly) that Snape 
is one of the good guys.  But "swooping around like an overgrown 
bat," acting as nasty as they come, Snape introduces Harry to the 
complicated moral universe we live in.  Knowing he's on the right 
side, while simply impossible to believe for Ron, for Harry makes him 
all the more frustrating.  One of G.K. Chesterton's characters 
says, "You can't be angry with bad men.  But a good man in the wrong--
why one thirsts for his blood."  Precisely for this reason, Snape is 
capable of bringing out the best and the worst of Harry at one and 
the same time.

So, here's my gauntlet:  what is the "best" and "worst" of Harry that 
Snape brings out?

Lisa




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 21 19:31:39 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:31:39 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Everything you've always wanted to know about Clocks
Message-ID: <F123aJbqJGNzscE8Npq0000926e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17510

Lea wrote:

>BTW, I dont seem to remember a single "normal" clock or watch ever
>to come up in the books...

But they MUST have regular clocks.  Remember Hermione's finals schedule in 
PoA (Ch. 16, "Professor Trelawney's Prediction")?  I'm sure we can cite 
other instances where so-called Muggle times were used in the wizarding 
world.

So I think that most modern witches and wizards have access to both kinds of 
timepieces... magical and regular.

On the socks thing:  I enjoyed the essay, but personally hate socks with a 
passion and do without them whenever possible.  (From May until October, 
they're at the bottom of a drawer collecting dust!)  While we're doing 
essays on things that occur a lot in the books, include the letter H... she 
uses it for main characters (Harry, Hagrid, Hermione), significant places 
(Hosgmeade, Hogwarts, Honeydukes), and even an important holiday in the 
books Halloween).

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Those who have ceased to love
Have not ceased to need,
Those who have ceased to care
Have not ceased to bleed;
Do not weigh the words that
Never ask, the minds that never
Seek, nor mark the averted faces,
But see the heart."

--Jean Toomer, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1947)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From inyron at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 03:47:52 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:47:52 -0000
Subject: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door
In-Reply-To: <9c2pm4+fkal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c2t18+k8rk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17511

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> So, here's my gauntlet:  what is the "best" and "worst" of Harry 
that 
> Snape brings out?

Well, I can't think of any "best" off the top of my head.  But 
the "worst" that sticks out in my mind was in GoF chapter 18.  It was 
right after Draco and Harry fought in the hall, and Hermione's teeth 
got all really big, and Snape insulted her then took the points from 
Gryffindor.  Harry, in a very bad place right then, fantasized (more 
forgivably) beating Snape with his cauldron, and thought "If only he 
knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse
he'd have Snape on his back like 
that spider, jerking and twitching
"   That bothered me.  Granted, 
Harry was under a lot of pressure from the fight with Ron and the 
whole tournament thing, and Snape was being very mean, but using an 
unforgivable curse?  I know he was only fantasizing, and he wouldn't 
actually do it (Like he didn't kill Sirius in thew Shrieking Shack, 
though he meant to)  but I think it's too much for even fantasizing 
about revenge.  And after all he went through by the end of GoF, and 
after learning first hand what the repercussions of the curse are, I 
think Harry would agree.

inyron

taking a break from studying from those pesky little finals






From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 03:56:33 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:56:33 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <1e.14b0f5fb.28165371@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17512

::ponders as she blows her nose:: Urgh! Bloody allergies!! <g> Anyway, Doreen 
had a point....she wrote:
It was my impression that the DE were not all that loyal. The minute 
that Voldie was "defeated/weakened", they all tucked tail and ran 
back to the "other side" with excuses about being mesmerized or such 
nonsense. Wormtail went into 12 years of hiding. The minute that 
Karakoff found out V was back, he lit out of Hogwarts like a streak. 
I don't know how others measure loyalty, but I don't think I would 
want any of them watching my back. The only ones who remained loyal 
were named by V ... and that was a very few out of the group.

Well, that makes sense to me, but suppose that those who were named might 
have been in Hufflepuff? Because Slytherins don't exactly seem the type to 
stay with their 'master' for that long when he's pretty much dead. They seem 
like they would move on to worship a better, (cooler! LOL) dark wizard, and 
just abondon poor Voldie like that.....
::Points wand at nose and mutters a few words...nose falls off::
<g>
Wicky

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 03:57:19 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:57:19 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420121431.00d116e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17513

Dear HP Fans,

         I was alerted to the fact that many of you have posted some 
rather negative comments about my book "HARRY POTTER AND 
THE BIBLE." I can appreciate your contrary opinions and look 
forward to some sincere, thoughtful, and rational dialogue with 
as many of you as possible (time permitting). 
            First, I'd like to just say that insults and personal
attacks 
will get us all nowhere. So, please, lets' keep the tone civil and 
mature. After all, this is supposed to be a board for ADULTS.
            Second, I will be more than happy to respond on the 
board or in private e-mails. Whichever it seems the majority of 
you would prefer. I will answer private e-mails sent to my 
richardabanes at earthlink.net address.
           And now, on with my responses to the personal attacks, 
half-truths, misinformation, disinformation, and out-right lies 
concerning me and my book "HARRY POTTER AND THE BIBLE."


__________________BEGIN


 In one post, a Dave Hardenbrook  wrote:

>I've reluctantly picked up _Harry Potter and the
>Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick_ and started to read
>it.  My intention was to scrawl into the book comments by
>Harry, Ron and Hermione . . . but I'm finding it impossible 
because long before >this Harry, Ron and Hermione would have 
thrown the book down the toilet (Sixty >points if it goes through 
>Myrtle's left adenoid. :) ).

           Here is a classic example of juvenile attacks that are 
completely without warrant. Let's talk about these issues in a 
mature manner and perhaps all of us will understand each other 
better.



>Just to give you an example, he claims that Harry's
>actions in the Second Task were *not* courageous
>but selfish.  (*Real* Christian courage would have been
>if Snape or Malfoy or someone else Harry hates had 
>been down there and Harry had saved *them*.)

       This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of my point in the 
book, and it is difficult to understand how "DAVE" could have 
misunderstood me. Notice by the way, that Dave gives no page 
numbers so you all can verify his accusations. I, however, unlike 
Dave, will give page references. On page 135, I discuss how 
Harry's actions were not really all THAT extraordinary in the 
"CHRISTIAN PARADIGM" because according to Christian belief, 
sacrificing for a friend or for someone that loves you is 
NATURAL. It is basic instinct for a person to want to love those 
and help those who love and help them. We, as Christians, 
strive to go beyond this concept by loving and reaching out to 
those whom we would consider our enemies, even at cost to us 
(Luke 6:32-33; Rom. 5:7-8). Is this really such a horrible 
concept??? I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to 
attribute exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed, 
which is in reality, quite a natural response. It is especially 
one-sided when taking into account his many other moral 
failings. I agree he did a great thing, but this natural response to 
save friends is hardly exceptional, when the same person 
behaves in a most unethical way faced with other scenarios.



>Later, he launches into a tirade against Wicca, Neopaganism,
>and other "occult" practices and how Western Civilization
> As We Know It is threatened by J.K. Rowling's promotion
> of them.

          Again, only half-truths here. I do indeed talk about 
occultism in America and also mention studies indicating that 
occultism has factually been linked to teen violence and 
adolescent problems. Tis is documented people, and it has 
NOTHING to do with religion, Christian or otherwise. And I would 
not call my carefully documented chapters that thoughtfully 
separate the distinctions between Wicca, neo-paganism, and 
Satansim as a "tirade" (see chapter 9). I quote from numerous 
sources, many of whom are religion scholars, to explain these 
beliefs. Notice that Dave did not say I misrepresent any of the 
beliefs.



>(He sites incidents in the books and selective editing of 
Rowling interview quotes to demonstrate her "heathen" status.)

   NOWHERE do I call Rowling a "heathen" nor do I pull any of 
her quotes out of context, but rather, let them explain her position 
on a number of issues.



>He concedes that some Christian leaders think the persecution 
>of Harry is >silly, but he says that any "expert" on the occult 
would recognize what a threat the Harry books are to the 
salvation of mankind.  My suspicion is that he is engaging in 
"Argument by Definition" (i.e. he defines an "expert" on the > 
occult as one who sees advocacy of it in the books),

            Dave here shows his complete unwillingness to 
accurately represent my words. First, I NOWHERE say that the 
HP books are a threat to mankind's salvation (by the way, if I HAD 
said this, I would have used the word "humanity" because 
"mankind" is so sexist). Second, I said an expert would see the 
occultism in the books. No expert says that occultism is NOT in 
the books. My gosh, Rowling herself says THAT (so Dave may 
be contradicting Rowling on this one). Third, an "expert" is any 
individual who has studied in-depth the field of question (in this 
case, occultism).



>but can anyone here point to
>any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
>intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
>the Hogwarts universe? 

        Talk about bad arguments. Here, Dave is basically saying 
that in order to qualify as an expert in his eyes, someone would 
have to espouse what he considers to be an "intelligent" opinion 
-- i.e., one that agrees with HIS opinion. Beautifully illogical and 
intolerant.
__________________________________________________

I SHALL NOW MOVE ON TO OTHER POSTERS





Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer stated:


>I was hoping someone would report in on whether this book 
was trash or
>at least worth reading for an intellectual exercise.  Sounds like 
the
>former from Dave's comments!  I'd been toying with ordering it 

     Interestingly, rather than make up their own minds, these 
individuals simply choose to believe good old Dave. Is that 
wise? Is that intellectual? Is that fair? I do not believe so, 
especially since Dave, like so many other HP fans have 
completely misrepresented my book, many of them having 
NEVER even read it. interesting.
__________________________________________________

DAVE RESPONDED AS FOLLOWS:





>t is worth reading for the intellectual excercise of seeing how 
many logical fallicies one can spot.

    For logical fallacies and poor argumentation, on eneed only 
look at Dave's posts.
__________________________________________________

ANOTHER POSTER WRITES


AMY Z. wrote:


> My  dictionary says it's belief in the supernatural, which would 
make most  Christians occultists.  But dictionaries aren't the 
most nuanced  sources . . .

     This is the most suberbly poor definition of occultism I have 
ever heard. Any religion scholar would agree. The world of the 
occult and its practices extend back thousands of years to the 
ancient mystery religions. the word literally means hidden, or 
veiled, as in information that is not obtainable via the natural 
senses or channels of knowledge. The occult includes those 
various practice that attempt to go beyond our world and gather 
information through use of divination techniques. To go any 
further in explaining this would require far too much space.



> What goes on in HP has nothing to do with Paganism other 
than its  positive valuation of magic and the word "witch."

   Untrue. The books also contain positive presentations of occult 
techniques and practices (astrology, numerology, channeling, 
etc). That cannot be denied. They are there, per Rowling herself. 
Contradict on that and you contradict Rowling -- not me.


>Never mind that it is  quite unclear what the Bible means by a 
witch.

     This is patently absurd and untrue. Books and books and 
books by renowned Bible scholars clearly know exactly what the 
Hebrew words in the Old Testament for witch meant.



>I expect that one thing the  author of _HP & the Bible_ means by 
"occult" is "Satanic."

    See, here is proof that everyone is sooooo quick to cindemn 
without bothering to get facts. I DO NOT equate occult with 
Satanism. Nor do I equate occult with Wicca. In fact, I go to great 
pains to distance Wicca from Satansim, and explain the vast 
difference between the two systems. Sorry, I do not fit your 
stereotyped, narrow-minded, fundamentalist boob.

___________________ END
Cordially

Richard Abnaes
author, "Harry Potter and the Bible"




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 04:20:13 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:20:13 -0000
Subject: Muggles/Squibs and Potions (was - Re: Magic Laws)
In-Reply-To: <20010423212302.6678.qmail@web1203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c2utt+f5fc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17514

> It actually does sound like anyone with the right
> ingredients, a caudlon (sp), and enough time on their
> hands can do it.  Muggles probably can't because they
> don't have the ingredients (e.g., unicorn hair).  I
> suspect, however, squibs can.

After thinking about this for a while I remembered the Kwikspell 
Course from CoS. It says "Madam Z. Nettles of Topsham writes: I had 
no memory for incantations and my POTIONS were a joke! Now, after a 
Kwikspell course, I am the centre of attention at parties and friends 
beg for the recipe for my Scintillation Solution!"

This suggests that maybe some magical ability is needed for potion 
brewing, apart from being able to aquire instruments/ingredients. 
Maybe certain utensils (is that the right word?) need to be charmed 
or something?

Of course, it could just be that the person had a memory problem (to 
many Memory Charms?) the Kwikspell 'cured' somehow...

~*Vicki*~




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 04:20:46 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:20:46 -0000
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <3AE4D803.E22E4920@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c2uuu+biin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17515

Amanda replied to the following:

Amber wrote:

>> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people 
with magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding 
ingrediants in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems 
that way to me).<<

> Well, that's the way cooking seems to me. And I'm passable, and I 
> do the occasional really good thing. But I have no "feel" for 
> cooking, I can't go into a kitchen and "invent" the way my husband 
> can, can't look in the fridge or the spice cabinet and think, 
> that'd go great with X here, and make a wonderful dish. My dad 
> could. One of my friends can. Great chefs don't do anything else, 
> they have to think about writing a recipe down.
> 
> So for Potions, yes, I think you must have a talent for it, and 
> given the nature of the beast, it must be a magical talent. Harry 
> and Ron can "cook." Hermione's a good cook. Snape's a chef.
> 
<snipperooni>

Very well said, Amanda.  I think I'm going to run with your lovely 
explanation and fluff it out a bit.  You mind? ;)

I think that although on the surface Potions seems like cooking,
there has to be more to it.  I see it this way.  When a chef goes to 
school to get his training, he learns about specific ingredients, the 
reactions they cause, what they go well with, etc.  So, one learns 
that thyme goes VERY well with chicken.  One learns that when making 
creme brulee (forgive the lack of accents there), if you make it with 
only egg yolks, you don't have to be so attentive to the temperature 
of your oven or the length of time you leave it in the oven, because 
the fat in the yolks "cushions" the cream, so to speak.  So, when 
someone goes into training to brew potions, they learn about their 
ingredients.  They learn that certain things cause drowsiness, others 
cause boils, others cause emotional reactions.  So you learn that you 
wouldn't make a sleeping potion out of ingredients that are known for 
perking people up (like caffeine).

While I think that squibs and muggles could brew up a potion given 
the ingredients and directions, I think it would probably take a true 
wizard to be able to *make up* a totally new potion, simply because 
they have the background and knowledge about the ingredients.  And 
rounding out the cooking analogy, some people know how to mix 
ingredients better than others... like Amanda said, Snape is a chef.

Jen (who would have gone to cooking school if her aunt hadn't said to 
her one day, "You'd never be a good chef - you don't like green 
peppers or onions.")




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 00:00:29 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:00:29 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c2fmt+odva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17516

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:

> Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
> think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
> looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
> certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t he? 
> Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such 
things 
> have lost their significance for him.



If Snape's outward appearance is due to lack of social contacts and 
neglect, then he has been that way for most of his life!  I have also 
heard those who think he makes himself *look* like this so the young 
girls at Hogwarts or any other young lady won't be interested in 
him.  If Snape has allowed his hygiene and outward appearance to 
decline because there is nothing of significance in life for him, 
then how do we explain why he came to Hogwarts oily, slimy, and 
greasy?

Koinonia




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 05:08:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 05:08:18 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <1e.14b0f5fb.28165371@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c31o2+a7tr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17517

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tommygirl618811 at a... wrote:
> ::ponders as she blows her nose:: Urgh! Bloody allergies!! <g> 
Anyway, Doreen 
> had a point....she wrote:
> It was my impression that the DE were not all that loyal. The 
minute 
> that Voldie was "defeated/weakened", they all tucked tail and ran 
> back to the "other side" with excuses about being mesmerized or 
such 
> nonsense. Wormtail went into 12 years of hiding. The minute that 
> Karakoff found out V was back, he lit out of Hogwarts like a 
streak. 
> I don't know how others measure loyalty, but I don't think I would 
> want any of them watching my back. The only ones who remained loyal 
> were named by V ... and that was a very few out of the group.
> 
> Well, that makes sense to me, but suppose that those who were named 
might 
> have been in Hufflepuff? Because Slytherins don't exactly seem the 
type to 
> stay with their 'master' for that long when he's pretty much dead. 
They seem 
> like they would move on to worship a better, (cooler! LOL) dark 
wizard, and 
> just abondon poor Voldie like that.....
> ::Points wand at nose and mutters a few words...nose falls off::
> <g>
> Wicky
*********************
Hmmm... got me there. I didn't want to muck up the list with a short 
answer like that, but I didn't want to just ignore your answer, 
either. So, the ones who turned tail and returned to their non-Voldy 
jobs were probably not loyal or Hufflepuffs. So, what else makes you 
think that those who were loyal, such as the couple who are still in 
Azkaban, were Hufflepuffs? Now you have me curious too.
Doreen, who hates admitting she is wrong.
*********************




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 05:10:56 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 05:10:56 -0000
Subject: Muggles/Squibs and Potions (was - Re: Magic Laws)
In-Reply-To: <9c2utt+f5fc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c31t0+f8q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17518

If scientist can mix potions than some are muggle capable. 
But like little Alex said they would not have the ingredients 
handy for magical potions. Also some more powerfull potions 
may require an incantation. Only those with magic could 
complete/activate the potion. 

Bugg 


> little Alex wrote:
> > It actually does sound like anyone with the right
> > ingredients, a caudlon (sp), and enough time on their
> > hands can do it.  Muggles probably can't because they
> > don't have the ingredients (e.g., unicorn hair).  I
> > suspect, however, squibs can.
> 
Vicki Granger wrote 
> After thinking about this for a while I remembered the Kwikspell 
> Course from CoS. It says "Madam Z. Nettles of Topsham writes: I had 
> no memory for incantations and my POTIONS were a joke! Now, after a 
> Kwikspell course, I am the centre of attention at parties and 
friends 
> beg for the recipe for my Scintillation Solution!"
> 
> This suggests that maybe some magical ability is needed for potion 
> brewing, apart from being able to aquire instruments/ingredients. 
> Maybe certain utensils (is that the right word?) need to be charmed 
> or something?
> 
> Of course, it could just be that the person had a memory problem 
(to 
> many Memory Charms?) the Kwikspell 'cured' somehow...
> 
> ~*Vicki*~





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 05:19:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 05:19:09 -0000
Subject: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door ... children's evil thoughts
In-Reply-To: <9c2t18+k8rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c32cd+q0fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17519

I know he was only fantasizing, and he wouldn't 
> actually do it (Like he didn't kill Sirius in thew Shrieking Shack, 
> though he meant to)  but I think it's too much for even fantasizing 
> about revenge.  And after all he went through by the end of GoF, 
and after learning first hand what the repercussions of the curse 
are, I think Harry would agree.
> 
> inyron
***************************
I do not think it was "too much" for him to fantasize about using the 
curse. It is not uncommon for children to be angry and wish someone 
would die. This has been brought up many times in psychology. Often, 
children have a terrible time with grief because just before the 
parent died, the child had been angry and wished a horrible fate 
and/or death upon said parent. It is a typical reaction to being 
angered. JKR has painted the children in her books as close to 
reality as any children that I have ever known.
Doreen, who used to fantasize about poisoning her mom's coffee, but 
now is her mom's best friend.
***************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 05:46:26 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 05:46:26 -0000
Subject: Did all the HP ships sink?
Message-ID: <9c33vi+hj5n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17520

What happened to all the ships and shippers? Did they sink? I have 
not seen a ship post here in ages. Did they all move to a different 
list? 

Doreen




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Apr 24 06:04:10 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:04:10 -0000
Subject: Let's Get Back to Harry!
In-Reply-To: <9c241a+9bco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c350q+ml3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17521

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I also have speculations about some of the magic Harry will be 
using 
> in his coming years at Hogwarts.  I'm sure (once again) that this 
has 
> been discussed before, but I believe he'll learn how to be an 
animagus 
> like his father did.  

I'm sure I remember JKR categorically saying in a chat or interview 
that Harry would definately NOT become an animagus, like his father.



Dai





From simon at hp.inbox.as  Tue Apr 24 07:01:56 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:01:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEELMDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17522

Richard: <<<First, I'd like to just say that insults and personal attacks
will get us all nowhere. So, please, lets' keep the tone civil and mature.
After all, this is supposed to be a board for ADULTS.>>>

As Richard mentions this is a board for adults and so we should all be able
to discuss this in a mature way.


I have not read the book and am not in the position to do so at the moment.
So I will only comment on one issue that does not, I think, need knowledge
of HPB.

__________________BEGIN


In one post, a Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>Just to give you an example, he claims that Harry's
>actions in the Second Task were *not* courageous
>but selfish.  (*Real* Christian courage would have been
>if Snape or Malfoy or someone else Harry hates had
>been down there and Harry had saved *them*.)

Richard replied:
<snip>On page 135, I discuss how
> Harry's actions were not really all THAT extraordinary in the
> "CHRISTIAN PARADIGM" because according to Christian belief,
> sacrificing for a friend or for someone that loves you is
> NATURAL. It is basic instinct for a person to want to love those
> and help those who love and help them. We, as Christians,
> strive to go beyond this concept by loving and reaching out to
> those whom we would consider our enemies, even at cost to us
> (Luke 6:32-33; Rom. 5:7-8). Is this really such a horrible
> concept??? I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to
> attribute exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed,
> which is in reality, quite a natural response.
> I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to
> attribute exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed,
> which is in reality, quite a natural response. It is especially
> one-sided when taking into account his many other moral
> failings. I agree he did a great thing, but this natural response to
> save friends is hardly exceptional, when the same person
> behaves in a most unethical way faced with other scenarios.


The point of the second task is not that Harry saves a friend. It is that
he saves someone he does not know. He rescues Gabrielle (Fleur's sister)
and would have, if allowed, rescued everyone down there (how he would have
got them back to the surface is a different matter).

The second incident to mention in conjunction with this is from PoA. In
this he allows Peter to live, even though he has just found out the truth
about what had happened to his parents. He does it for the benefit of
Sirius and Remus, but the end result is that he has rescued Peter.



Simon
--
Dominus Illuminatio Mea ...
"The Lord is my light, and my salvation; whom shall I fear?"
Psalm 27
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 07:59:37 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:59:37 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <B70A64D5.111%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c3bp9+qtqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17523


> ::enthusiastic thumbs-up:: Precisely. I have no bones about 
Christianity. In
> fact, it's rather nice that early Christians felt that they should 
celebrate
> their own holidays at the same time as us Pagans -- Christmas falls 
soon
> after Yule, Easter falls around Beltane time, Hallowe'en is Samhain
> (pronounced SOW-inn [sow as in pig, not as in reap]), Candlemas is 
Imbolc,
> and so on throughout the year.

You know, going by what JKR seems to be intending (this isn't 
intended as a response to the book itself, but to the whole relation 
of HP and morality in general)...HP isn't supposed to represent any 
religion in particular, any particular sect. It isn't meant to 
promote actual occult acts. It isn't meant to promote Wicca or 
Satanism, and indeed most people rightly do not see it as so. The 
occult things are presented as part of a fantasy world. 

The main moral message of HP seems to be about prejudice and good 
behavior in a secular sense. It seems somewhat off the mark to 
criticize the books polemically for things which the author did not 
intend to promote. The books strike me as taking a very secular tone 
in general. 

But in general I think this "censorship" issue is overblown. If 
several people in the US don't want to read HP, that's their loss. 
And I even think it's good for children to read things that may not 
reflect their cultural background, like world mythology. But those 
are my beliefs. 

I'm not sure discussion is even really possible, because the 
differences in ground values, assumptions about the world, the role 
of the state vis-a-vis religion, literary criticism, and beliefs 
about the cosmological order or what have you are so vast that we may 
mostly end up agreeing to disagree or realizing that the argument of 
the other side is nonsensical within our worldview or vice versa. 

Charmian
(who would also like to note that speaking in all caps is considered 
bad manners online)




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 08:28:26 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:28:26 -0000
Subject: Harry's weakness was Let's Get Back to Harry!
In-Reply-To: <9c241a+9bco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3dfa+n27j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17524

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hello Everyone!
> 
> I've been reading through the postings this week, and noticed that 
> people aren't discussing Harry as much as I'd like.  I had some 
> thoughts about Harry that I wanted to post, so here goes -
Yeah, this is suppose to be Harry's week.  I've noticed that there's 
more Snape related posts ...  Let's get back to Harry.
 
> People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and talents, 
but 
> I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.  What are they?  What 
> are the things about Harry that could really end up hurting him?

There are a few things in his character:
1. Procrastination
We see that quite prominently in GoF.  Harry, like all teenagers (and 
adults for that matter), does procrastinate.  It may end up hurting 
him, academically or otherwise.  He does have the attitude of 'I will 
find out when I need to know' when it comes to magical knowledge and  
relies on Hermione over the years.
2. Insecure
Harry has a low sense of self-esteem (But not as bad as Ron).  He 
always thinks he's going to fail, he *knows* he's going to suck.  A 
pessimist by nature.
That's all I can think of for the moment. 




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Tue Apr 24 10:47:31 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:47:31 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c2fmt+odva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3lk3+t3qr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17525

 lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
> > think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
> > looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
> > certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t 
he? 
> > Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such 
> things 
> > have lost their significance for him.
> 


Koinonia wrote: 

> If Snape's outward appearance is due to lack of social contacts and 
> neglect, then he has been that way for most of his life!   If Snape 
has allowed his hygiene and outward appearance to 
> decline because there is nothing of significance in life for him, 
> then how do we explain why he came to Hogwarts oily, slimy, and 
> greasy?
> 
> Koinonia

Well, lots of guys put a lot of grease into their hair voluntarily 
because they think it looks cool ;-)

Seriously, that?s not contradictory, to assume that when he was a kid, 
he didn?t care about his looks, like some people who simply appear not 
to be conscious of their own outward appearance or of the impression 
it gives to others.

He may have discovered this later, but then decided it was no longer 
of importance to him. Or he was never really conscious of it. Maybe 
both. But honestly, he must have *some* reason not to wash his hair, 
mustn?t he? (except gave the Marauders? Map an opportunity for one of 
the most hilarious moments in all the books, which may have been 
reason enough for JKR).




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 10:49:42 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door
In-Reply-To: <9c2t18+k8rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424104942.39550.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17526

> Well, I can't think of any "best" off the top of my head.  But 
> the "worst" that sticks out in my mind was in GoF chapter 18.  It
> was right after Draco and Harry fought in the hall, and Hermione's
> teeth got all really big, and Snape insulted her then took the 
> points from Gryffindor.  Harry, in a very bad place right then, 
> fantasized (more forgivably) beating Snape with his cauldron, and 
> thought "If only he 
> knew how to do the Cruciatus Cursehe'd have Snape on his back like
> that spider, jerking and twitching"   That bothered me.  


I agree.  That was interesting because it showed the depth of his
feeling.  Of course, he was still estranged from Ron at that point;
normally they would have shared their feelings and perhaps diluted
them in the process but keeping them bottled up inside is obviously
not good for Harry.

I did wonder if this is a foreshadowing of a choice Harry will make
in the future.  We discuss quite often whether this or that character
will join Lord V. but not much time is given to reasons they would. 
If Lord V. offers them something they could get nowhere else, then
the attraction might be irrisistable.  If Lord V. offered Harry the
chance to torture Snape - with impunity and approval - how would he
react?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 11:01:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:01:09 -0000
Subject: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door
In-Reply-To: <20010424104942.39550.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c3mdl+qees@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17527

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Well, I can't think of any "best" off the top of my head.  But 
> > the "worst" that sticks out in my mind was in GoF chapter 18.  It
> > was right after Draco and Harry fought in the hall, and Hermione's
> > teeth got all really big, and Snape insulted her then took the 
> > points from Gryffindor.  Harry, in a very bad place right then, 
> > fantasized (more forgivably) beating Snape with his cauldron, and 
> > thought "If only he 
> > knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse
he'd have Snape on his back 
like
> > that spider, jerking and twitching
"   That bothered me.  
> 
> 
> I agree.  That was interesting because it showed the depth of his
> feeling.  Of course, he was still estranged from Ron at that point;
> normally they would have shared their feelings and perhaps diluted
> them in the process but keeping them bottled up inside is obviously
> not good for Harry.
> 
> I did wonder if this is a foreshadowing of a choice Harry will make
> in the future.  We discuss quite often whether this or that 
character
> will join Lord V. but not much time is given to reasons they would. 
> If Lord V. offers them something they could get nowhere else, then
> the attraction might be irrisistable.  If Lord V. offered Harry the
> chance to torture Snape - with impunity and approval - how would he
> react?
> 
I don't buy this.  As has been stated by Doreen in a previous post - 
most children/adolescents at some time or another fantasise about 
killing/hurting someone they feel hatred for. It is all part of the 
overemotional adolescent years.  
What I really want to say though, is that there is absolutely no way 
that Harry would take approval from Voldemort as meaning he had 
authority/approval to do anything.  It would have to be something 
with much more meaning.  For instance, I can see Harry torturing 
Snape if it were to stop Voldemort killing someone - anyone.
I also think that GoF was moving towards a shift in the Snape/Harry 
relationship, and that Harry is already looking at him in a slightly 
more ambivalent way.

BTW, Jen, I think it was, was bemoaning the fact that we are not 
discussing Harry enough.   I agree with this - I posted a couple of 
things in response to someone saying that Harry has only escaped 
Voldemort by luck so far etc. etc., and cited his strengths in doing 
so blah blah - but no response.  Has everyone here gone Snape crazy, 
or what?!!

Catherine 




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 11:19:14 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:19:14 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3nfi+10kj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
<v. big snip>
> So now to the rosebushes.
<snip>
>  Magda writes:
> > Personally I don't think that Snape has discovered girls yet;
> > his blasting the rosebushes activities during the Yule dance is 
so 
> > wonderfully in character as is his touching belief that taking 
> points away will deter them from finding other bushes.<<
>  
> Koinonia replied:
> > Let's face it. Snape is a man and is capable of having 
> > loved just like anyone else. I believe Snape was in love at one 
time 
> > and the kids in the rosebushes just brings back painful memories 
of 
> > the one he has lost. If he can't be with the one he loved then 
they 
> > are not going to get an opportunity to get close to the one they 
> > like. So very like Snape!<<
> 
> Lyda agreed:
> > I agree wholeheartedly with Koinonia; I think Snape was once in 
> love,  and that he lost his loved one due to his involvement with 
the 
> DEs. The rosebush business *does* bring back horrible memories and 
> guilt for him. I also think that Severus is... er... rather 
> *frustrated* in  some areas. ;) There are few (if any) teachers 
that 
> are near his age at Hogwarts, and he doesn't venture into Hogmeade. 
> Fourteen years of celibacy will get to a man, eventually, and 
seeing 
> kids fooling around in rosebushes doesn't help much. :)
>  Severus has these *very* deep, passionate emotions, but he also 
> > has this extreme self-control with which he regulates and 
attempts 
> to detach his emotions.<<
> 
> 
> I do agree with Lyda, as I have the same notion about Snape?s past. 
> Apart from that, I believe that the question of partnership and 
even 
> of love in the sense of attraction between man and woman may lose 
its 
> significance in unusual circumstances. 
> 
> And I believe Snape?s life has up to now been a row of unusual 
> circumstances. I don?t think his main concern is that he can?t go 
> down to Hogsmeade and have a drink at the pub and date a nice 
> girl... Lyda, you?re doing injustice to men in general there (but 
> maybe that was your intent - your luck that Snape threads tend to 
> interest female fans only;-)).
> 
> Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
> think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
> looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
> certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t he? 
> Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such 
things 
> have lost their significance for him.

Here, I'm afraid that I disagree with Magda, and agree with everyone 
else.  I think that Snape does have something in his past which makes 
him behave in such an embittered way - and not seeming to bother 
about his physical appearance is probably a physical extension of 
this bitterness.

I've been thinking about the whole Snape/romantic angle here, in 
light of JKR's comments in the Comic Relief interview (the same one 
in which Zsenya asked the fatal Ron/Hermione question).  She says 
that information on various professors' spouses/partners is 
currently "kind of classified" and that all will be revealed in due 
course.  Of course, this could mean any number of things, and may not 
relate to Snape at all, but given the fact that many people here seem 
to believe that there is something in Snape's past to explain his 
behaviour, then it does seem likely that he is one of the people 
about whom JKR is referring.

The possibilities are endless and have been explored here before - 
particularly that Snape was in love with Lily Potter.  I have a 
thought that one of the reasons Snape turned away from Volemort back 
to Dumbledore is because Voldemort hurt someone he (Snape) loved - 
could be Lily, could be someone else, I wouldn't like to hazard a 
guess.

<sighs> I suppose we'll have to wait and see.  I hope that the next 
book lives up to the endless predictions made on this list! (I'm sure 
it will).

Catherine





From john at walton.to  Tue Apr 24 11:22:43 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:22:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B70B2093.1CA%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17529

Welcome to Richard, who's either just joined or just delurked. It's very
flattering to be able to discuss the aspects of your book with which some of
us take issue with you onlist. Please do bear in mind that the members of
this list do respect and trust each other implicitly, so when you denigrate
Dave (or any other member), we do naturally have a negative reaction to you.

> I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to
> attribute exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed,
> which is in reality, quite a natural response.

Simon's point, that Harry rescues Gabrielle at this juncture, as well as
saving Pettigrew's life in PoA, is excellent. Surely this does show moral
fiber?

> I agree he did a great thing, but this natural response to
> save friends is hardly exceptional, when the same person
> behaves in a most unethical way faced with other scenarios.

When? Where? Give us references (chapter, not page, because not all of us
have the same edition), please. I don't think any of our 1100+ members would
consider Harry unethical.

> Again, only half-truths here. I do indeed talk about
> occultism in America and also mention studies indicating that
> occultism has factually been linked to teen violence and
> adolescent problems. Tis is documented people, and it has
> NOTHING to do with religion, Christian or otherwise.

Show me documentary evidence, by a *respected* source (this would exclude
Bob Jones University and its ilk, by the way). Not *one* child who has had
links to Paganism or the occult (see below for definition) has ever killed
anybody or even participated in any of the recent teen violence across the
US -- it's completely contrary to the tenets of Paganism. (Here, in
Paganism, I'm referring to many different Earth Religion paths.)

Perhaps you should have done some more research before making statements
like that. Hope your book's not the same.

> This is the most suberbly poor definition of occultism I have
> ever heard. Any religion scholar would agree. The world of the
> occult and its practices extend back thousands of years to the
> ancient mystery religions. the word literally means hidden, or
> veiled,

Remember that the "mystery" in "mystery religions", as I said earlier,
refers only to the "central mysteries", which *all* religions have.

"Hidden" has NO NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS. I can't stress that enough. If
members of a religion are systematically hounded, tortured, murdered and
worse (Salem Witch Trials, anyone?) simply because of their beliefs,
becoming "hidden" or "occult" is really rather a rational response. So,
witchcraft and Paganism quietly got on with their practices and didn't tell
anyone lest they try to burn them at the stake (again).

Again, I hope your book doesn't show this lack of research.

> as in information that is not obtainable via the natural
> senses or channels of knowledge.

Depends what you mean by the word "natural". As nature-based religions,
Paganism is totally natural by definition. And could you define what you
mean by a "channel of knowledge"?

> The occult includes those various practice that attempt to go beyond our world
> and gather information through use of divination techniques. To go any further
> in explaining this would require far too much space.

::sigh:: You've misrepresented "the occult" again. While I can't claim to
speak for the rest of the occult, I'm happy to say that Paganism considers
that it works in our own world, not on some spirit level (apologies to Al
there...). I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "divination techniques";
could you clarify?

You might want to do some more research and perhaps make changes in the next
edition of your book.

>> Never mind that it is  quite unclear what the Bible means by a witch.

> This is patently absurd and untrue. Books and books and books by renowned
> Bible scholars clearly know exactly what the Hebrew words in the Old Testament
> for witch meant.

Yes, they do know, don't they. And what does the word in question mean?
"Poisoner", not "Witch". Sure, *that's* a reason to burn little old ladies
with cats at the stake, throw them into ponds, ad nauseum ad infinitum...

>> Penny wrote:

>> I was hoping someone would report in on whether this book was trash or at
>> least worth reading for an intellectual exercise.  Sounds like the former
>> from Dave's comments!  I'd been toying with ordering it <snip>

> Richard responded:

> Interestingly, rather than make up their own minds, these individuals simply
> choose to believe good old Dave. Is that wise?

Sure. What's the wisdom of spending (however much your book costs) if I
*know* I won't like it? I simply don't have enough money to buy all the
books I want *and* send my $99.95 monthly donation to the "Help Harry Potter
Destroy The Moral Fiber Of The Western World", c/o Pat Robertson,
Hicksville, USA.

> Is that intellectual?

Of course. It's taking evidence presented by a known and respected source
(Dave) and weighing it up with contrary evidence on this list (only you,
Richard, who's suddenly appeared/delurked) to make a decision whether or not
to buy it. I'll take Dave's opinion on the matter until I have evidence to
the contrary.

> Is that fair?

Probably not. But, to coin a cliche', Life Ain't Fair.

>> Amy Z wrote:

>> What goes on in HP has nothing to do with Paganism other than its  positive
>> valuation of magic and the word "witch."

> Richard responded:

> Untrue. The books also contain positive presentations of occult
> techniques and practices (astrology, numerology, channeling,
> etc). That cannot be denied.

Rubbish! "This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of the points in the
book, and it is difficult to understand how "RICHARD" could have
misunderstood." The Divination class and all its acts are not presented in a
positive light. They're presented as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, to the extent
that Hermione, the most academic and sensible character we see, actually
*leaves* the class because it's not worthwhile. The only reason Harry takes
Divination is that Ron is doing so. I suspect the only reason Ron is doing
so is because it's an easy grade. The two boys are unable to follow
Hermione's lead in leaving because they are not taking any extra classes
which would let them replace it.

Moreover, the fictional/mythological acts described by JKR are nothing more
than stage magic, as opposed to occult practices. You cannot read tea leaves
as Trelawney does, nor does her way of gazing into a crystal ball work. I
honestly can't remember any numerology in the books (unless you're talking
about Harry and Ron making up Divination homework), and the "channeling"
presented in the book has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with "real life" channeling.
Believe me, I've seen it done.

Again, I find myself thinking that your research is flawed and wondering
just how thoroughly you read the four books -- go do some more research,
look through our Files section and other online resources, and then rethink
your arguments. Perhaps, since you criticise Dave for making points without
references, you might want to show us the positive light in which Divination
is presented. Please use chapter references rather than page references for
those of us with different editions.

Again, Richard, you really need to research your arguments and "facts"
better. This is especially important when lambasting others for not quoting
directly from your esteemed tome.

I am still of an open mind regarding whether or not I should purchase this
book, having taken on board comments from both Dave and Richard. Would
anybody else like to join in?

Anybody interested in learning more about "the occult", Wicca, Witchcraft or
Paganism should head on over to the excellent "Witch's Voice" at
www.witchvox.net

--John

____________________________________________

Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts
by concealing evidence that they ever existed. -Dwight D Eisenhower

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 12:18:04 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:18:04 -0000
Subject: Dragging Harry in through the Back Door
In-Reply-To: <9c3mdl+qees@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3qts+p54c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17530

BTW, Jen, I think it was, was bemoaning the fact that we are not 
> discussing Harry enough.   I agree with this - I posted a couple of 
> things in response to someone saying that Harry has only escaped 
> Voldemort by luck so far etc. etc., and cited his strengths in 
doing so blah blah - but no response.  Has everyone here gone Snape 
crazy, or what?!!
Catherine
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
At the risk of getting shot, hung, or burned at the stake, I do not 
think Harry is the most interesting character in the HP books. 
Obviously, without him, there would be no story to tell, but within 
the covers of the books, there are a lot of characters who interest 
me more than he does. Hagrid, Snape, Filch, Hermione, any of the 
Weasleys, and Peeves all are more interesting, as far as I am 
concerned. 

Doreen, who never like Mickey Mouse, either, but loved Donald Duck!




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 24 12:24:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:24:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did all the HP ships sink?
References: <9c33vi+hj5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE57091.8E6D9858@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17531

Hi --

No, Doreen, the Ships didn't sink.  <g>  The shipping discussions come &
go in waves (to continue nautical analogies).  Many folks would actually
be pleased if they never re-appeared at all.  But, trust me -- we're all
still floating along out here.

Penny






From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 12:26:36 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:26:36 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c3nfi+10kj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3rds+lbb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17532

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about the whole Snape/romantic angle here, in 
> light of JKR's comments in the Comic Relief interview (the same one 
> in which Zsenya asked the fatal Ron/Hermione question).  She says 
> that information on various professors' spouses/partners is 
> currently "kind of classified" and that all will be revealed in due 
> course.  

I have long been a believer that Snape was in love (not with Lily) 
and he was the first one that came to mind after the Comic Relief 
interview.  For some reason, so did Dumbledore.  

 
I have a 
> thought that one of the reasons Snape turned away from Volemort 
back 
> to Dumbledore is because Voldemort hurt someone he (Snape) loved - 
> could be Lily, could be someone else, I wouldn't like to hazard a 
> guess.


He turned away from Voldemort before Lily was killed.  

 
> <sighs> I suppose we'll have to wait and see.  I hope that the next 
> book lives up to the endless predictions made on this list! (I'm 
sure 
> it will).

Yes, we'll just have to wait :(  I know the other books will be 
great.  I also know that I will be way off mark on many of my 
predictions.  She just gives us so little information!

Koinonia





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 12:34:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:34:13 -0000
Subject: Magic laws-Squibs-Imperius-Prepositions/GH
Message-ID: <9c3rs5+4uah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17533

Milz wrote:

> About the wands, I think Rowling addressed the wand issue in an 
> interview. IIRC, she said that her wizards CAN do magic without 
wands
> (such as the boa constrictor at the zoo in SS/PS) but it's an 
> uncontrolled magic and very dangerous.

Amber wrote:

><sigh> Well then, why couldn't she have mentioned that in one of her
>four books! Eh, well, I guess the focus of the books isn't on magic 
but
>on the ultimate battle between good and evil. But still...

I think she was just clarifying what some readers, including you, 
already speculated must be the case--that there are ways of 
doing what would normally be charms or transfigurations without a 
wand.

I wonder less about the uncontrolled magic of a scared kid (Harry's 
escape onto the school roof, etc.) than the cases like Voldemort's 
creating Peter's hand--and what about Lupin and Black de-rattifying 
Peter with wands but no words?  

                   **************************
  Black had already retrieved Snape's wand from the bed.  He 
approached Lupin and the struggling rat, and his wet eyes suddenly 
seemed to be burning in his face.
  "Together?" he said quietly.
  "I think so," said Lupin, holding Scabbers tightly in one hand and 
his wand in the other.  "On the count of three.  One - two - THREE!"
  A flash of blue-white light erupted from both wands . . . .  (PA 19)
                   **************************

...and Scabbers turns into Peter.  Did they say something and JKR just 
didn't bother to put it in (it must get hard, making up all those 
spell words)?  Or is intention + a wand sometimes enough?

I like Amanda's cooking analogy, and Jen's expansions thereon:  there 
is a talent in making Potions, and it's a magical talent.  Lupin says 
he doesn't have much of it; Snape clearly has it in abundance.  What 
we still don't know is whether it is possible to brew an effective 
potion if you have NO magical talent.  If you have the 
ingredients, will you get the results, even if you're a Muggle--the 
way an uncreative cook can follow a recipe and make a recognizable 
cake?  I think it is possible within JKR's universe that the answer is 
no.  Since we know there is =something= within witches and wizards 
that calls forth the magic in enchanted objects, e.g. brooms and 
wands, that something might also be necessary to make a potion a 
potion and not just an inert tea of herbs and newt parts.

>As for what makes a Charm, my hazy idea has been blown by Wingardium
>Leviosa (unless, although Flitwick the Charms teacher taught the 
class,
>it was an "intro to magic" class). But here goes. Charms seem to fall
>into the category of spells worked on others. When people get charmed 
or
>enchanted in stories, it's a viewpoint thing, like a love charm.

Maybe most stories talk about charms as spells worked on others 
because they're the most interesting--making people fall in love, etc. 
 But in HP, Charms clearly apply to objects also:  Summoning and 
Banishing charms, Wingardium Leviosa, lumos/nox (we don't know where 
they learned that, but it seems to be in the same category).

Squib thought:  I have been assuming that Filch has =some= magical 
ability (enough to use Mrs. Skower's!--also, there's that link with 
Mrs. Norris).  Magical talent comes on a continuum; he might consider 
himself a Squib, and be treated as a Squib, because he has =almost= 
none.  It's like someone in a musical family saying "I have no musical 
talent," when in fact he can learn to play the piano if he really puts 
a lot of effort into it; he just doesn't have much of a gift for it.

SNAPE and the IMPERIUS CURSE

I don't think we can reach any conclusions about who is capable of 
throwing off the I.C.  One powerful wizard (so described by Sirius), 
Crouch Sr., is kept under it for months by Voldemort; another, Moody, 
is kept under it for months by, one assumes, Crouch Jr.; this would 
seem to suggest that Crouch Jr. is very powerful himself, yet he was 
kept under it for 12 years!

Being powerful in one aspect doesn't mean having the kind of will that 
makes one resistant to the I.C.--it seems to be a kind of integrity, 
combined with sheer stubbornness ("I don't think I will, thanks," says 
the voice in Harry's head).  Whether Snape has that kind of will power 
is debatable; I'd say very possibly, but that we can't assume he 
does on the basis of his brilliance at Potions.  That's a different 
kind of talent.

MORE PREPOSITIONS

Doreen wrote:

>Before McGonagall's statement, we neither know the existence of 
Godric's Hollow is or that the Potters 
>lived there, be it village *or* a house. *If* it merely 
>said, "Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow", what would that tell 
>the reader? I believe both sentences are needed and not redundant.

Good point!  However, she is speaking to Dumbledore, who =does= know 
what Godric's Hollow is (hey, why don't we ask him?).  JKR has been 
known to put in blatant plot expo/backstory for the sake of the 
reader--I wish she wouldn't do that filling-in at the beginning of 
each book, ugh (how about a little note instead: "Those who really 
want to know what color Ron's hair is and how long his nose is are 
cordially referred to the first book.  Thank you")--but I like to 
think that she does it very seldom and that if McGonagall says 
something to Dumbledore, it's something she would actually say to him 
and not a stage whisper to the audience.

I do like your image of V showing up in the toilet, however...I'd 
rather face an ax-wielding Jack Nicholson any day.

Of course, one reason I find GH-as-house nonsensical is that I picture 
it, with no canon support whatsoever, as a very small house.  If it 
were a mansion, his showing up at one end of it and stalking through 
looking for them would make sense. 

Amy Z
who had no idea that there were 32 prepositions in the English 
language.  The things I learn from this list!




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Apr 24 12:44:34 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:44:34 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3sfi+rfdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17534

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rabanesss at y... wrote:
> Dave wrote:-
> >Just to give you an example, he claims that Harry's
> >actions in the Second Task were *not* courageous
> >but selfish.  (*Real* Christian courage would have been
> >if Snape or Malfoy or someone else Harry hates had 
> >been down there and Harry had saved *them*.)

Richard wrote:
>        This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of my point in the 
> book, and it is difficult to understand how "DAVE" could have 
> misunderstood me. 

Perhaps Dave thought that you made your overall point of the book on 
the front cover. "The menace behind the magic" - a tad sweeping 
perhaps? I can well imagine how Dave would come to his conclusion.

> On page 135, I discuss how 
> Harry's actions were not really all THAT extraordinary in the 
> "CHRISTIAN PARADIGM" because according to Christian belief, 
> sacrificing for a friend or for someone that loves you is 
> NATURAL.

It's not exactly menacing though, is it? I can't see how Harry saving 
his friends is a bad thing, or in any way not moral.
.
> It is basic instinct for a person to want to love those 
> and help those who love and help them. We, as Christians, 
> strive to go beyond this concept by loving and reaching out to 
> those whom we would consider our enemies, even at cost to us 
> (Luke 6:32-33; Rom. 5:7-8). Is this really such a horrible 
> concept??? I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to 
> attribute exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed, 
> which is in reality, quite a natural response. It is especially 
> one-sided when taking into account his many other moral 
> failings. 

Dumbledore was at this point in the book judging Harry's actions in 
the second task. He was not commenting on Harry's overall character. 
You have taken this out of context.

> I agree he did a great thing, but this natural response to 
> save friends is hardly exceptional, when the same person 
> behaves in a most unethical way faced with other scenarios.

He's a teenage boy. He will act with questionable judgement. Are you 
not in favour of realism?

> I do indeed talk about 
> occultism in America and also mention studies indicating that 
> occultism has factually been linked to teen violence and 
> adolescent problems. Tis is documented people, and it has 
> NOTHING to do with religion, Christian or otherwise. 

Religion - Christian or any other - has been responsible for far more 
violence than occult ever has. Witch burnings for example (I could go 
on to talk about the crusades, the troubles in Northern Ireland etc. 
but y'know, it would require far too much space).

> NOWHERE do I call Rowling a "heathen" nor do I pull any of 
> her quotes out of context, but rather, let them explain her 
> position on a number of issues.

I'm glad you don't take Rowling out of context. However you don't 
seem to carry this carefulness into your recent message.


>         Talk about bad arguments. Here, Dave is basically saying 
> that in order to qualify as an expert in his eyes, someone would 
> have to espouse what he considers to be an "intelligent" opinion 
> -- i.e., one that agrees with HIS opinion. Beautifully illogical 
and 
> intolerant.

Intolerant eh? Interesting word usage from a person who describes a 
piece of popular fiction as a menace, due to its fantasy content.

> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer stated:
> 
> 
> >I was hoping someone would report in on whether this book 
> was trash or
> >at least worth reading for an intellectual exercise.  Sounds like 
> the
> >former from Dave's comments!  I'd been toying with ordering it 
> 
>      Interestingly, rather than make up their own minds, these 
> individuals simply choose to believe good old Dave. Is that 
> wise? 

What? Do you never take the advice of a friend? Have you ever decided 
not to: 
read a book,
watch a film,
order something from the menu at a restaurant,
because a friend recommended against it? If someone says to 
you "Drugs are bad" do you try anyway so that you can form your own 
opinion?

> Is that intellectual? Is that fair? I do not believe so, 
> especially since Dave, like so many other HP fans have 
> completely misrepresented my book, many of them having 
> NEVER even read it. interesting.

Don't you think that HP fans like those on this list would be put off 
by the title? "Harry Potter and the Bible: The menace behind the 
magic" says to me "someone trashing HP."

> Dave wrote:-
> >t is worth reading for the intellectual excercise of seeing how 
> many logical fallicies one can spot.
> 
Richard replied:-
>     For logical fallacies and poor argumentation, one need only 
> look at Dave's posts.

I'd be careful here if I were you; considering your quotes out of 
context, ignorance of facts against your arguments and sweeping 
statements.

> AMY Z. wrote:
> 
> 
> > My  dictionary says it's belief in the supernatural, which would 
> make most  Christians occultists.  But dictionaries aren't the 
> most nuanced  sources . . .
> 
Richard replied:
>      This is the most suberbly poor definition of occultism I have 
> ever heard. Any religion scholar would agree.

Whoops! You've gone and taken Amy's remark out of context. Careful, 
that sort of thing could damage your argument.

> occult and its practices extend back thousands of years to the 
> ancient mystery religions. the word literally means hidden, or 
> veiled, as in information that is not obtainable via the natural 
> senses or channels of knowledge. The occult includes those 
> various practice that attempt to go beyond our world and gather 
> information through use of divination techniques. To go any 
> further in explaining this would require far too much space.

> >Never mind that it is  quite unclear what the Bible means by a 
> witch.
> 
>      This is patently absurd and untrue. Books and books and 
> books by renowned Bible scholars clearly know exactly what the 
> Hebrew words in the Old Testament for witch meant.

Books and Books and Books eh? In my experience, anything that takes 
books and books and books to explain is never understood exactly, or 
often even clearly.

> >I expect that one thing the  author of _HP & the Bible_ means by 
> "occult" is "Satanic."
> 
>     See, here is proof that everyone is sooooo quick to cindemn 
> without bothering to get facts. I DO NOT equate occult with 
> Satanism. Nor do I equate occult with Wicca. In fact, I go to great 
> pains to distance Wicca from Satansim, and explain the vast 
> difference between the two systems. Sorry, I do not fit your 
> stereotyped, narrow-minded, fundamentalist boob.

So, if you don't have a problem with the occult, wicca or anything 
else apart from Satanism - and you've said there's no Satanism in HP -
 why exactly are the books a menace?



Dai
(pronounced die. Does that make me evil?)




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 12:45:12 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:45:12 -0000
Subject: Did all the HP ships sink?
In-Reply-To: <9c33vi+hj5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3sgo+a54d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17535

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> What happened to all the ships and shippers? Did they sink? I have 
> not seen a ship post here in ages. Did they all move to a different 
> list? 
> 
> Doreen

I must admit I am not into 'which character will end up with which 
character'.  However, I will state my preferences this once ;)  I 
don't care who Harry ends up with.  I don't really care if it is with 
Hermione or Ginny.  If I HAD to chose I would chose a character we 
have yet to meet.  Hermione seems to belong with Percy. Neville is so 
sweet I just hope he meets a nice young lady.  Ron....well, I don't 
think Ron is going to survive, so unless he is going to go with a 
ghost.....Draco, he doesn't deserve anyone.

I am more interested in the adult characters.  I am also a big 
romantic at heart and hope they each find love. Of course, at this 
point in time I'm just hoping they survive!

Koinonia

  




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 12:51:44 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:51:44 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c3rds+lbb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3st0+rcpr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
I wrote:

> I have a 
> > thought that one of the reasons Snape turned away from Volemort 
> back 
> > to Dumbledore is because Voldemort hurt someone he (Snape) loved -
 
> > could be Lily, could be someone else, I wouldn't like to hazard a 
> > guess.
> 
Koinonia wrote:
> He turned away from Voldemort before Lily was killed.  

Quite right - but I said "hurt"  - not kill.  I was thinking more 
along the lines of the fact that if Snape got an inkling that 
Voldemort wanted to kill the Potters - and we know that they were 
targeted and that a spy of Dumbledore got wind of it - perhaps this 
was enough to bring Snape to his senses.  It didn't necessarily need 
to be a reaction to something after the fact.  I assume that all the 
death eaters had instructions to find the Potters - therefore perhaps 
he had come to the conclusion that he couldn't countenance these 
particular deaths and tried to pre-empt instead.

Catherine




From dorband at uwp.edu  Tue Apr 24 13:04:09 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:04:09 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c3tk9+10hic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17537

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rabanesss at y... wrote:
> Dear HP Fans,
> 
>          I was alerted to the fact that many of you have posted some 
> rather negative comments about my book "HARRY POTTER AND 
> THE BIBLE." .........


Good morning Richard,

I believe I got caught in the crossfire between you and some of our 
more opinionated  posters.  My only role in this was to point Dave in 
the direction of other articles that might be helpful for his 
research.  I advocate neither side of this argument.  

My only point in responding to this message is to request that all 
communications on this subject be kept to the HP4GU board and not be 
sent to my personal email.  I recognize the passion that is stirred by 
this subject matter, and I don't object to civil dialogue ( heck, I 
don't object to some known-down, drag out, hair pulling verbal 
brawls now and again <g> ) but I must insist that it be limited to 
group postings - not personal email.

Good luck to you in your pursuit of salvation.

Brian 







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 13:04:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:04:02 -0000
Subject: Nasty fantasies of Harry's
In-Reply-To: <20010424104942.39550.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c3tk3+gjkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17538

No, D/H shippers, this isn't for you. ;-)

Inyron wrote:

> > Harry, in a very bad place right then, 
> > fantasized (more forgivably) beating Snape with his cauldron, and 
> > thought "If only he 
> > knew how to do the Cruciatus Curse
he'd have Snape on his back 
like
> > that spider, jerking and twitching
"   That bothered me.  
> 
> 
> I agree.  That was interesting because it showed the depth of his
> feeling.  Of course, he was still estranged from Ron at that point;
> normally they would have shared their feelings and perhaps diluted
> them in the process but keeping them bottled up inside is obviously
> not good for Harry.
> 

Yes--this burst of bad feeling comes in the middle of "some of Harry's 
worst [few days] at Hogwarts" (GF 18).  Almost everyone is giving him 
the silent treatment, he's just been treated to his first sight of 
"Potter Stinks" buttons, he and Ron aren't speaking, he just (two 
seconds before) had a glimmer of hope that they would make up that was 
then quashed, and Snape has just had perhaps his nastiest moment ever 
(putting down Hermione).  In the circumstances, I found Harry's 
sadistic fantasy disturbing, but understandable.  Like Doreen, I think 
one can fantasize about hurting someone in a way that one would never 
do if actually given the opportunity.

Magda wrote:

> I did wonder if this is a foreshadowing of a choice Harry will make
> in the future.  We discuss quite often whether this or that 
character
> will join Lord V. but not much time is given to reasons they would. 
> If Lord V. offers them something they could get nowhere else, then
> the attraction might be irrisistable.  If Lord V. offered Harry the
> chance to torture Snape - with impunity and approval - how would he
> react?

I don't think he would do it for love or money.  To me this fantasy 
was like another disturbing scene, his wave of hatred for Sirius Black 
in PA 11.  We never know whether Harry really has a desire to kill SB, 
but I think he probably does; yet when faced with the opportunity, he 
can't (won't) do it.  He attacks him, but that's in a burst of anger; 
I can't see him ever torturing or killing someone, including Snape, in 
cold blood.  Except perhaps Voldemort . . . 

We do know that Harry is tormented by the thought that his mercy for 
Pettigrew made it possible for him to return to V, a thought that is 
probably even more persistent after Wormtail's performance in GF.  
That might make Harry act differently in the future.  (Though I still 
think Wormtail will be swayed at some crucial moment by, if not 
gratitude, then shame for Harry's having rescued him.)

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
 The full list of these fouls, however, has never
 been made available to the wizarding public.  It
 is the Department's view that witches and wizards
 who see the list 'might get ideas'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
---------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Tue Apr 24 13:03:01 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:03:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
References: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE57984.83804AEE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17539

This is long, sorry (well, what did you expect? Have I *ever* posted
anything short?). Welcome to the list, Richard!

rabanesss at yahoo.com wrote:

> In one post, a Dave Hardenbrook  wrote:
>
> >I've reluctantly picked up _Harry Potter and the
> >Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick_ and started to read
> >it.  My intention was to scrawl into the book comments by
> >Harry, Ron and Hermione . . . but I'm finding it impossible because
> long before >this Harry, Ron and Hermione would have thrown the book
> down the toilet (Sixty >points if it goes through >Myrtle's left
> adenoid. :) ).
>
>            Here is a classic example of juvenile attacks that are
> completely without warrant.

It occurs to me that you might have missed a reference or two. Dave is
being a bit juvenile, but he's referring to what was done with the
"Schoolbooks" that Jo Rowling just brought out for charity purposes.
They were supposed to be facsimiles of a Hogwarts library book
(Quidditch through the Ages) and one of Harry's schoolbooks (Fantastic
Beasts and Where to Find Them). In Fantastic Beasts, there are
handwritten notes in the margins, as a student would doodle, "by" Harry,
Ron, and Hermione. So Dave's not trying to desecrate your book, so much
as doing an in-joke.

You've read the main books, I take it, so you know that the reference to
the toilet and getting it through Myrtle's adenoid is from Chamber of
Secrets. Again, he's doing an in-joke.

I didn't really find this immature, so much as an attempt to set a
less-than-scholarly tone. He's providing a quick impression and
overview, not (at this point) doing a point-by-point with page
references.

>        This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of my point in the book,
> and it is difficult to understand how "DAVE" could have misunderstood
> me.

As one of the chief interpreters an analyzers of Severus Snape, who has
had several brilliant, insightful, and downright ingenious posts
misunderstood, I do understand the frustration. <grins> But you must
yourself understand that one *can* understand a good argument and still
honestly disagree with it. That they disagree doesn't mean they didn't
understand.

> Notice by the way, that Dave gives no page numbers so you all can
> verify his accusations.

Again, Dave wasn't trying to do an analysis of your book. He did a quick
overview with a few examples.

> On page 135, I discuss how Harry's actions were not really all THAT
> extraordinary in the "CHRISTIAN PARADIGM" because according to
> Christian belief, sacrificing for a friend or for someone that loves
> you is NATURAL. It is basic instinct for a person to want to love
> those and help those who love and help them. We, as Christians, strive
> to go beyond this concept by loving and reaching out to those whom we
> would consider our enemies, even at cost to us (Luke 6:32-33; Rom.
> 5:7-8). Is this really such a horrible concept???

It's not a horrible concept at all, but a very laudable one. But I find
your basic premise, that there's nothing special about Harry's helping
his friends, to be odd. After all, it's "no greater love than to lay
down your life for your fellow man" (paraphrase). It doesn't specify who
the fellow man has to be.

Nor were all of them Harry's friends. Ron and Hermione surely were, but
Harry had never even met Fleur's sister, and in fact knew so little of
her that he didn't know her name or that, of a certainty, she *was*
Fleur's sister. She was just a little girl. And he rescued her, too.

There's also the element of self-sacrifice in Harry's abandonment of his
own goals in trying to win the event. He saves these people, not only in
the face of personal danger but in the face of personal disappointment.

> I then go on to simply state that it seems biased to attribute
> exceptional moral fiber to Harry for one specific deed, which is in
> reality, quite a natural response.

Your "natural response" is right up there with "common sense." It
*should* be, I wish it were, but it's sadly not really the norm. The
fact that Harry treated it as the natural response, thus, does warrant
some attention. His character, like you, doesn't think he did anything
special. In my mind, that enhances his deed, that he didn't think of it
as a "deed" at all (especially given his upbringing).

> It is especially one-sided when taking into account his many other
> moral failings. I agree he did a great thing, but this natural
> response to save friends is hardly exceptional, when the same person
> behaves in a most unethical way faced with other scenarios.

I will echo whoever requested specifics on this one. I'll broaden the
request and ask for specifics on anybody doing unethical things, since
(as I said above) my particular favorite character is Snape, who is
tremendously complex and the most likely, I think, to present ethical
dilemmas to the reader (in that he serves the good, but does things in
such a nasty way).

>           Again, only half-truths here. I do indeed talk about
> occultism in America and also mention studies indicating that
> occultism has factually been linked to teen violence and adolescent
> problems. Tis is documented people, and it has NOTHING to do with
> religion, Christian or otherwise. And I would not call my carefully
> documented chapters that thoughtfully separate the distinctions
> between Wicca, neo-paganism, and Satansim as a "tirade" (see chapter
> 9). I quote from numerous sources, many of whom are religion scholars,
> to explain these beliefs. Notice that Dave did not say I misrepresent
> any of the beliefs.

Can't comment here, haven't read it. I'll have to see if our local
library's got it. Unless you want to post the relevant passage? Because
I have three kids under six and when I get to run around outside the
house, I generally have this built-in problem with concentration.....

>             Dave here shows his complete unwillingness to
> accurately represent my words. First, I NOWHERE say that the HP books
> are a threat to mankind's salvation (by the way, if I HAD said this, I
> would have used the word "humanity" because "mankind" is so sexist).

Off-topic, but as a linguist I still bemoan the alteration of our
glorious language to be politically correct. I know, I know, there *is*
a measurable effect on children that the "generic" pronouns and stuff
are masculine. But I also don't know that language is the causal factor
and not a parallel cultural result. I just don't like setting out to
change things as a social experiment. [I know, I'm weird, I like strong
verbs, too, and bemoan their passing as well.]

> Second, I said an expert would see the occultism in the books. No
> expert says that occultism is NOT in the books. My gosh, Rowling
> herself says THAT (so Dave may be contradicting Rowling on this one).
> Third, an "expert" is any individual who has studied in-depth the
> field of question (in this case, occultism).

You must understand, we've seen so many tirades by people who are NOT
experts and are claiming to be. "Expert" may be one of the most misused
words in English. Did you provide any references or background on the
people you referenced? That would help.

> >but can anyone here point to
> >any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
> >intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
> >the Hogwarts universe?
>
>         Talk about bad arguments. Here, Dave is basically saying that
> in order to qualify as an expert in his eyes, someone would have to
> espouse what he considers to be an "intelligent" opinion -- i.e., one
> that agrees with HIS opinion. Beautifully illogical and intolerant.

I don't think that's what he was asking. Most of the Christian critiques
that I, at least, have read, have seemed to not be grasping the real
themes of these books. They tend to seize upon superficials and window
dressing, rather than address the merits of the substance. What Dave, I
think, was asking for was a critique by a Christian leader who had
demonstrably understood some of the points of the books, *and*
understood "occult" as it is used in common parlance. And I've already
pointed out that "understand" does not mean "agree."

> I SHALL NOW MOVE ON TO OTHER POSTERS
>
> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer
>
>      Interestingly, rather than make up their own minds, these
> individuals simply choose to believe good old Dave. Is that wise? Is
> that intellectual? Is that fair? I do not believe so, especially since
> Dave, like so many other HP fans have completely misrepresented my
> book, many of them having NEVER even read it. interesting.

No, no. I keep saying that Dave posted a quick overview. This is akin to
the comments you find on Amazon, the reader reviews. Plenty of people
make a decision to seek out the book or not based on those, but plenty
of people simply read the comments and go no further, having gotten the
information they wanted on the "flavor" of the book right there. I don't
find any problem with this. Those who want to do a scholarly analysis of
your book will go and get it. Those who don't, won't. Our discussion of
Dave's "take" is not the same as a discussion of your book.

> AMY Z. wrote:
>
> > My  dictionary says it's belief in the supernatural, which would
> make most  Christians occultists.  But dictionaries aren't the most
> nuanced  sources . . .
>
>      This is the most suberbly poor definition of occultism I have
> ever heard.

And she defined it as such, herself.

> Any religion scholar would agree. The world of the occult and its
> practices extend back thousands of years to the
> ancient mystery religions. the word literally means hidden, or veiled,
> as in information that is not obtainable via the natural senses or
> channels of knowledge. The occult includes those various practice that
> attempt to go beyond our world and gather information through use of
> divination techniques. To go any further in explaining this would
> require far too much space.

In the early days of Christianity, the rite of confirmation was a
passage to just such mysteries. The hopeful, yet-uninitiated had to
leave the worship at a certain point, when the initiates to the
mysteries celebrated those mysteries together. In fact, the Catholic
church has attempted to reclaim a bit of that "privileged" feel to the
mystery of the mass, and RCIA students and others formally in the
process of becoming members do, indeed, leave the mass and go study the
day's readings while the congregation, the "initiated," celebrate the
Eucharist. But I digress.

Suffice it to say that any definition, interpreted broadly enough, will
fit any religion, and that, I think, was Amy's point.

>    Untrue. The books also contain positive presentations of occult
> techniques and practices (astrology, numerology, channeling, etc).
> That cannot be denied. They are there, per Rowling herself. Contradict
> on that and you contradict Rowling -- not me.

Well, the books contain presentations of them. To call all of them
positive, though, is a bit of a stretch. The only authority figures at
the school who are treated with anything less than dignity and respect
are Gilderoy Lockhart (who was an illustration of incompetence) and
Sybill Trelawney, professor of Divination. All of Divination is treated
as having no substance and no merit, hardly positive. So I don't think
your blanket statement is actually correct.

>     See, here is proof that everyone is sooooo quick to cindemn
> without bothering to get facts. I DO NOT equate occult with Satanism.
> Nor do I equate occult with Wicca. In fact, I go to great pains to
> distance Wicca from Satansim, and explain the vast difference between
> the two systems. Sorry, I do not fit your stereotyped, narrow-minded,
> fundamentalist boob.

*You* may not. But it's a sensitive issue, we've read so much about
banning and book-burnings and the like, by people who clearly haven't
put any thought into their reaction or their condemnation. I love that
you joined the list to discuss things, instead of simply writing us off
as uncultured heathen! But as a list, it must be admitted we have a bit
of emotional baggage on the issue, which I hope will be discarded as the
discussion continues.

Thanks!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 13:33:33 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <3AE4D803.E22E4920@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010424133333.25762.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17540

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> So for Potions, yes, I think you must have a talent
> for it, and given
> the nature of the beast, it must be a magical
> talent. Harry and Ron can
> "cook." Hermione's a good cook. Snape's a chef.

A truly excellent analogy, Amanda.  I have discovered
the great divide between cooking and being a chef
since starting to live on my own, and my greatest
desire is to one day reach the level of a decent cook.
 Chef is *totally* out of my range. <g>  This could be
why even Hermione isn't considered a "worthy pupil"
(as was discussed in another thread) by Snape.  She
may have a bit of talent in pulling things together,
but she's not a chef yet.

> Well, this is going to sound loopy. [I'm certain you
> all thought I was a
> paragon of sanity and stability up to this point.] I
> think part of what
> makes a spell difficult is the degree to which it
> imposes your will on
> the world.

Makes perfect sense.  Moody says, after all, that the
killing curse requires "a fair bit of magic behind
it", just knowing the spell itself wasn't enough.  I
read that as it required quite a bit of willpower to
execute.  This would also be why the Imperius curse
can be thrown off, if your will is stronger than the
one casting the spell.

> As for what makes a Charm, my hazy idea has been
> blown by Wingardium
> Leviosa (unless, although Flitwick the Charms
> teacher taught the class,
> it was an "intro to magic" class). But here goes.
> Charms seem to fall
> into the category of spells worked on others. 

I was thinking more than "charms" was mostly spells
worked on objects rather than people. (The only
exception I've noted would be cheering charms.) 
Wingardium Leviosa, Summoning, Banishing, Flitwick
training the doors to recognize Sirius, etc.  But I
think the best explanation so far is that "charms"
refers to general spells.  (ie, "English" class
doesn't just teach the English language - it teaches
grammar, literature, writing, etc.)

> However, most of the wandless magic we've seen has
> to do with the person
> casting it. Animagus spells and apparation are cast
> on oneself. Most of
> the things Harry did were to himself--growing his
> hair back, putting
> himself on the roof, etc. And the things he did to
> others were in
> self-defense.

Turning the teacher's hair blue?  I'm not sure what
his "self-defense" for that one was! <g>  Shrinking
the sweater wasn't *quite* doing a spell on himself,
but it was close, I guess.  An interesting theory,
though.  
I've always thought that the requirement for doing
wandless magic was having some kind of strong emotion
behind it, sort of like the emotion doing the
amplification factor of the wand, but without the
added focus a wand would give.  He flew onto the roof
when he was afraid of Dudley's gang, he shrunk the
sweater and grew back his hair when he was embarrassed
and afraid of getting teased at school, he made the
glass on the boa's cage vanish when Piers called the
Dursleys attention to the "weird" thing he was doing
with the snake (which would lead to punishment).  



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 14:01:42 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:01:42 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_ (admin & personal comment)
In-Reply-To: <9c2tiv+e3ln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4106+l83h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17541

Welcome to our list Richard.  I wouldn't like to make any specific 
comments on your book without having read it, although I can glean 
something about the content and leaning of it from comments, 
including your own.  

ADMIN

A couple of points of clarification on the admin side (not aimed at 
anyone in particular ? just general):

If we are to continue a discussion on this topic, I think we should 
make a clear distinction between any direct comments on the book in 
question (which most of us have not seen), and views on religious 
objections to the Harry Potter books, in general.  

At the risk of placing the needle on the scratchy old record once 
more, we should also maintain respect for opposing views and not 
simply denounce them without supporting our own opinion, and make it 
clear that it is our opinion.

Richard has kindly offered to correspond privately on this and some 
of you may prefer to have an offlist dialogue with him.


MY THOUGHTS

Okay, with the admin notes out of the way, I second Charmian's 
earlier point about the secular interpretation of religion in the 
Harry Potter books.  In my opinion, in the context of creating a 
credible alternative universe, JKR interpreted elements of 
traditional magic, witchcraft and folklore.  To my mind, her 
witchcraft references are more a reflection of her thorough research 
for the book than an expression of her own lifestyle or beliefs.  

Personally, I think JKR marks the differences between good and evil 
behaviour and shows the realistic and often unpredictable 
consequences of each.  Above all, however, I think she set out to 
write an entertaining story, from the spark of an idea, and not, if 
you will, a witchcraft manual.

The leading question, I suppose, is not the background to the books, 
but the possibility that they might influence younger readers into 
investigating `real' witchcraft; this seems to be a concern of some 
people.  On the other side of the coin is what appears to be a 
misconception or confusion about the occult, witchcraft and Wicca.  

There are several Wiccans and Christians on this list far better 
versed in these matters than I (being neither), so I guess I won't go 
further than that.

Neil
__________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator







From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 14:06:12 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:06:12 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEELMDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9c418k+auef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:

   I greatly appreciate Simon's thoughts and observations. My 
response is as follows:

SIMON WROTE: The point of the second task is not that Harry 
saves a friend. It is that he saves someone he does not know. 
He rescues Gabrielle (Fleur's sister) and would have, if allowed, 
rescued everyone down there (how he would have got them back 
to the surface is a different matter).  The second incident to 
mention in conjunction with this is from PoA. In  this he allows 
Peter to live, even though he has just found out the truth  about 
what had happened to his parents. He does it for the benefit of  
Sirius and Remus, but the end result is that he has rescued 
Peter.

 ANSWER: _________ I see the point about Gabrielle, but I still 
do not believe that this in any way changes the fact that Gabrielle 
was yet another "good" character, whether he knew her or not. 
And so, Harry is still acting on natural instinct, nothing 
EXTRAordinary from a biblical perspective of going beyong doing 
good to those who do good, and into the realm of doing good for 
yuor enemies and loving those who persecute you. That is a 
Christian concept from the Bible and I was simply pointing that 
out in my book and post. Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
done!!! Because Peter was allwed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
causing evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds 
(lying, cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing about 
fun and goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ fantasy, I 
don't know what is.

Cordially,
Richard Abanes
author, "Harry Potter and the Bible"




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 14:11:13 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:11:13 -0000
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <20010424133333.25762.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c41i1+hfla@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17543

On the muggles/squibs making potions thing:
I think that they probably could, IF they could find the 
ingredients.  But, a lot of potions require magical herbs, bits of 
Fantastic Beasts in addition to ground up spiders, etc.  Because non-
magical people just can't "see" the right way, they would never be 
able to locate the all the gillyweed or unicorn horn powder and other 
things for which the recipe might call.  You could proabably go out 
and thrust the directions for a Sleeping Drought (god, if I could 
only get some for my toddler... ;) )into the hands of about a 
thousand Muggles, and they, upon seeing Boomslang Skin on the 
ingredients list, would just toss it anyway. 

Here's another question(s) though:  Have we ever seen a potion that 
also needs an incantation said over it?  (Doesn't that happen in 
Wicca sometimes?)  Would that fall into Spell or Potion? 

Stephanie


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > So for Potions, yes, I think you must have a talent
> > for it, and given
> > the nature of the beast, it must be a magical
> > talent. Harry and Ron can
> > "cook." Hermione's a good cook. Snape's a chef.
> 
> A truly excellent analogy, Amanda.  I have discovered
> the great divide between cooking and being a chef
> since starting to live on my own, and my greatest
> desire is to one day reach the level of a decent cook.
>  Chef is *totally* out of my range. <g>  This could be
> why even Hermione isn't considered a "worthy pupil"
> (as was discussed in another thread) by Snape.  She
> may have a bit of talent in pulling things together,
> but she's not a chef yet.
> 
> > Well, this is going to sound loopy. [I'm certain you
> > all thought I was a
> > paragon of sanity and stability up to this point.] I
> > think part of what
> > makes a spell difficult is the degree to which it
> > imposes your will on
> > the world.
> 
> Makes perfect sense.  Moody says, after all, that the
> killing curse requires "a fair bit of magic behind
> it", just knowing the spell itself wasn't enough.  I
> read that as it required quite a bit of willpower to
> execute.  This would also be why the Imperius curse
> can be thrown off, if your will is stronger than the
> one casting the spell.
> 
> > As for what makes a Charm, my hazy idea has been
> > blown by Wingardium
> > Leviosa (unless, although Flitwick the Charms
> > teacher taught the class,
> > it was an "intro to magic" class). But here goes.
> > Charms seem to fall
> > into the category of spells worked on others. 
> 
> I was thinking more than "charms" was mostly spells
> worked on objects rather than people. (The only
> exception I've noted would be cheering charms.) 
> Wingardium Leviosa, Summoning, Banishing, Flitwick
> training the doors to recognize Sirius, etc.  But I
> think the best explanation so far is that "charms"
> refers to general spells.  (ie, "English" class
> doesn't just teach the English language - it teaches
> grammar, literature, writing, etc.)
> 
> > However, most of the wandless magic we've seen has
> > to do with the person
> > casting it. Animagus spells and apparation are cast
> > on oneself. Most of
> > the things Harry did were to himself--growing his
> > hair back, putting
> > himself on the roof, etc. And the things he did to
> > others were in
> > self-defense.
> 
> Turning the teacher's hair blue?  I'm not sure what
> his "self-defense" for that one was! <g>  Shrinking
> the sweater wasn't *quite* doing a spell on himself,
> but it was close, I guess.  An interesting theory,
> though.  
> I've always thought that the requirement for doing
> wandless magic was having some kind of strong emotion
> behind it, sort of like the emotion doing the
> amplification factor of the wand, but without the
> added focus a wand would give.  He flew onto the roof
> when he was afraid of Dudley's gang, he shrunk the
> sweater and grew back his hair when he was embarrassed
> and afraid of getting teased at school, he made the
> glass on the boa's cage vanish when Piers called the
> Dursleys attention to the "weird" thing he was doing
> with the snake (which would lead to punishment).  
> 
> 
> 
> Andrea
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Apr 24 14:18:58 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:18:58 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore
In-Reply-To: <9c418k+auef@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c420j+8ggd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17544

I swore I wasn't going to hop onto this discussion, but the best laid 
plans of mice & men....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rabanesss at yahoo.com [mailto:rabanesss at yahoo.com]
>  ANSWER: _________ I see the point about Gabrielle, but I still 
> do not believe that this in any way changes the fact that Gabrielle 
> was yet another "good" character, whether he knew her or not. 
But we don't know that she is/was. All we know is that she's a little 
blonde girl whose grandmother was a Veela. Up until that point, Fleur 
hadn't been particularly nice to Harry ("leetle boy" that he was) and 
he had no reason to believe that Gabrielle was a "good" character 
(and by that, I *think* you mean that Gabrielle was a good person 
(i.e. not an enemy of his))

> Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
> TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
> handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
> deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
> done!!! Because Peter was allowed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
> and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
> causing evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds 
> (lying, cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing about 
> fun and goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ fantasy, 
I 
> don't know what is.
I am really confused here. Given that the story isn't over yet, we 
don't know what the end result of Harry's letting Peter go would've 
been. Obviously, if Harry hadn't let Peter go, then Cedric's and 
Frank Bryce's and Bertha Jorkins' deaths wouldn't've happened, and 
they were obviously evil and horrible things, but I have a feeling 
that if Harry had allowed Sirius & Remus to kill Peter, commentators 
would've condemned him for that - and they would've been right to do 
so.
I also can't see many instances where bad deeds bring about fun and 
goodness. 
If you deem Hagrid's taking Harry to see the dragons "cheating", or 
use the same term to apply to Moody's providing the information to 
Dobby about gillyweed, who then provides it to Harry, then what fun & 
goodness, in the long run, results from that? Cedric dies! I guess 
the potential fun result of this, in future books, would be the 
Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, which will likely be fun, but while one is, 
to some extent, a direct result of the other, all it really shows, in 
a linear sense, is that the repercussions of certain things are 
impossible to predict.
Good, bad, or "natural", every decision creates a million possible 
results - some are out of one's control, others can be manipulated 
and developed - that's what JKR is trying to show, not some 
simplistic "If you do this, then this happens" linearity.






From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr 24 13:52:00 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:52:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
References: <9c2fmt+odva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE58500.114542A8@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17545

koinonia02 at yahoo.com wrote:

> If Snape's outward appearance is due to lack of social contacts and
> neglect, then he has been that way for most of his life!  I have also
> heard those who think he makes himself *look* like this so the young
> girls at Hogwarts or any other young lady won't be interested in
> him.  If Snape has allowed his hygiene and outward appearance to
> decline because there is nothing of significance in life for him,
> then how do we explain why he came to Hogwarts oily, slimy, and
> greasy?

Well, some people just have very oily hair.  Snape may not think
it's worth the trouble to wash it every single day (which is
often what's required in such cases).  


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 14:35:37 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:35:37 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_ 
In-Reply-To: <9c4106+l83h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c42vp+ifp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17546


> 
> Okay, with the admin notes out of the way, I second Charmian's 
> earlier point about the secular interpretation of religion in the 
> Harry Potter books.  In my opinion, in the context of creating a 
> credible alternative universe, JKR interpreted elements of 
> traditional magic, witchcraft and folklore.  To my mind, her 
> witchcraft references are more a reflection of her thorough 
research 
> for the book than an expression of her own lifestyle or beliefs.  

To my mind, the question of whether it would be very fruitful to comb 
through the HP books in search of whether they jibe or do not jibe 
with Christian doctrine is one which we should ask before even 
embarking on this discussion. Since the HP books were not intended to 
be commentaries on Christian ethics, nor are promoted by the remarks 
of JKR, her publisher, or press critics as such, I question whether 
we ought to bother evaluating them in this way, any more than we 
ought to consider combing through the books for fidelity to Wiccan 
doctrine and accurate depictions of pagan rites. I mean, to my mind 
in makes just as much sense as evaluating them psychoanalytically 
[hey, folks. Let's psychoanalyze Snape, and determine whether his 
outburst is reflective of hysteria or neurasthenia. Or maybe we've 
done that already], or through one of the more abstruse theoretical 
ways. You may find one or two insights, but to really 
understand/appreciate the HP books, I think other approaches are more 
useful, like actually understanding JKR's intent and viewpoint. 

And that's why I'm going to decline getting directly into the 
discussion. Like I said before, if some people have religious views 
which cause them to reject HP, that's their business. I see this as a 
sectarian issue (because not all Christians, or even most from what I 
see, support this interpretation of HP or this attitude towards 
fiction), which isn't really relevant to those who don't belong to 
certain branches of Christianity. So to me (as a nonChristian) this 
makes as much sense as Harry Potter and the Koran, or HP and the I 
Ching or Confucian Analects. (Though I suspect that Harry is not 
headed for mastery of the Confucian virtues.) The moment that people 
start trying to impose their choice on others, trying to tell people 
what they should allow their kids to read, regardless of the beliefs 
of the other parents, I would involve myself. 

Charmian




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr 24 14:00:47 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:00:47 -0400
Subject: Prepositions/GH
References: <9c3rs5+4uah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE5870F.7F49D1F7@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17547

Amy Z wrote:

> Of course, one reason I find GH-as-house nonsensical is that I picture
> it, with no canon support whatsoever, as a very small house.  If it
> were a mansion, his showing up at one end of it and stalking through
> looking for them would make sense.

What makes =me= think "Godric's Hollow" is a village is the name
itself.  It sounds to me like a geographical feature (probably a
small valley) and by association, the village that's built
there.  Manor houses tend to be called things like "Place" or
"Court" or "Hall" or "Priory" or "Castle" or something like that
-- not "Hollow."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 14:53:03 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:AbanesRespondsMore
In-Reply-To: <9c420j+8ggd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424145303.60727.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17548

> > Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
> > TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
> > handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
> > deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
> > done!!! Because Peter was allowed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
> > and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
> > causing evil...

And just how is anyone supposed to see into the future and predict
the outcome of a particular action?

The point is that Harry asked that mercy be shown to Peter who had
(to use an old, established phrase that some of you may remember)
"trespassed against him" and his family.  In this action, Harry was
certainly taking a very moral position and should not be blamed
because Peter did not benefit from his example and take moral
positions himself.

As Dumbledore said, it is our choices that make us what we are and
Harry is learning about choices.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 14:53:30 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:53:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_ 
In-Reply-To: <9c42vp+ifp0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424145330.7512.qmail@web1608.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17549


--- ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:
> Since the HP books were not intended to
> be commentaries on Christian ethics, nor are promoted by the remarks 
> of JKR, her publisher, or press critics as such, I question whether 
> we ought to bother evaluating them in this way, any more than we 
> ought to consider combing through the books for fidelity to Wiccan 
> doctrine and accurate depictions of pagan rites. 
<snip> 
> You may find
> one or two insights, but to really understand/appreciate the HP
> books, I think other approaches are more useful, like actually 
> understanding JKR's intent and viewpoint. 

Hear, hear! Couldn't have said it better myself. I believe HP wasn't
written to promote any religion, or make any political commentary on
religion. At the risk of being gasped at, it's simply a children's
fantasy book that is meant to entertain. In my opinion, JKR's goal is
not to say that magic is either good or bad, a specific religion is
either good or bad, that certain actions are good or bad. She's just
telling a story. <grin> However, obviously others feel differently.

> The moment that people 
> start trying to impose their choice on others, trying to tell people 
> what they should allow their kids to read, regardless of the beliefs 
> of the other parents, I would involve myself. 

BRAVO! Preeeecisely. 

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 15:04:11 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:04:11 -0000
Subject: Abanes Answers Witch
In-Reply-To: <B70B2093.1CA%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c44lb+gt0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17550

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:


 Welcome to Richard, who's either just joined or just delurked. 
It's very flattering to be able to discuss the aspects of your book 
with which some of us take issue with you onlist. Please do 
bear in mind that the members of this list do respect and trust 
each other implicitly, so when you denigrate Dave (or any other 
member), we do naturally have a negative reaction to you.

ANSWER: My pleasure to be here. Agreed.


> Simon's point, that Harry rescues Gabrielle at this juncture, as 
well as  saving Pettigrew's life in PoA, is excellent. Surely this 
does show moral fiber?

ANSWER: See my posted response to simon.


> When? Where? Give us references (chapter, not page, 
because not all of us  have the same edition), please. I don't 
think any of our 1100+ members would consider Harry unethical.

ANSWER: Oh goodness. This is why I wrote the book. I can't 
condense into a board post 8 chapters (PART 1) in which I 
summarize each of Rowling's books (using 1 whole chapter per 
book), then offer an analysis of each book (yet another chapter 
per book). Let me just say that if you carefully go through each 
book, you will see a consistent presentation of "good" characters 
doing bad things when ENTIRELY unnecessary (thus preventing 
any argument of "well-they-had-to-lie-in-order-to-etc.-etc." A few 
examples for those who know the Potter series:

1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT 
throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry 
would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone 
else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.
2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under 
per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws 
against illegal pets.
3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so 
beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to 
lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.
4. Hagrid, as lovable as he may appear to be, actually is one of 
the biggest rule-breaking, misbehaving, self-centered, 
law-breaking criminal of the series. Oh, and if you notice, he is 
regularly drunk!! Again, what a great role-model.
5. Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
sell it). And he lies to his wife -- great.
    Just a few of MANY examples. My book lists hundreds.



> Show me documentary evidence, by a *respected* source 
>(this would exclude  Bob Jones University and its ilk, by the 
>way). Not *one* child who has had  links to Paganism or the 
>occult (see below for definition) has ever killed  anybody or even 
>participated in any of the recent teen violence across the  US -- 
>it's completely contrary to the tenets of Paganism. (Here, in 
>Paganism, I'm referring to many different Earth Religion paths.)   
>Perhaps you should have done some more research before 
>making statements  like that. Hope your book's not the same.

ANSWER: Oh dear, you do have your head in the sand, don't you. 
Since I don't hav ethe time to list the hundreds of examples 
available. I suggest that you simply go to a search engine and 
enter phrases/words like "occult, murder" or "vampire cult" or 
"teens murder occult" -- you'll get all the examples you need. 
Wake up. Oh, by the way, Sean Sellers, executed on Feb. 4, 1999 
was a practicing occultist when he brutally murdered 3 people, 
including his parents in 1986. Also, occult involvement actually 
has indeed been identified as one of the warning signs of 
potential violence in a child, according to psychologist Reid 
Kimbrough of The justice Center, a Nashville-based organization 
that conducts seminars nationwide for law enforcement 
personnel and educators relative to youth and school violence. 
Also Norvin Richard, chairman of the Philosophy Department at 
University of Alabama says the same thing. (You asked for only 
ONE source, but here are two. Use Internet search engines for 
more).  Kimbrough, who since 1997 has been teaching his 
"Children at High Risk for Violent Behavior" course, says occult 
involvement includes a student listening to music which has 
death or suicide in its lyrics, possessing paraphernalia such as 
skulls, black candles or a satanic bible, preoccupation with a 
Ouija board or tarot cards, drawing satanic symbols on 
themselves or property and wearing black clothing. As they say 
in the X-FIles -- "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE."


> Remember that the "mystery" in "mystery religions", as I said 
>earlier,  refers only to the "central mysteries", which *all* 
>religions have.  "Hidden" has NO NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS. 
>I can't stress that enough. If  members of a religion are 
>systematically hounded, tortured, murdered and  worse (Salem 
>Witch Trials, anyone?) simply because of their beliefs,  
>becoming "hidden" or "occult" is really rather a rational 
>response. So, witchcraft and Paganism quietly got on with their 
>practices and didn't tell  anyone lest they try to burn them at the 
>stake (again).  Again, I hope your book doesn't show this lack of 
>research.

ANSWER: My gosh, where do you get your information? Go read 
som ereal history rather than materials generated by pagan 
organizations and Wiccans who revise history in order to fit their 
needs today as 21st century neo-pagans I would ask that people 
on this board simply go do some non-fiction reading (history) to 
get the straight scoop on the above.


>Depends what you mean by the word "natural". As 
>nature-based religions, Paganism is totally natural by 
>definition. And could you define what you mean by a "channel of 
>knowledge"?

ANSWER: The 5 senses and other means of knowledge 
obtaining (talking, reading, thinking, etc.).


>I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "divination techniques";
> could you clarify?

ANSWER: You are a pagan? And you do not know techniques of 
divination???? Now you are playing games. That's like a football 
player saying he doesn't know what the words offense and 
defense mean. PA-leese.


> You might want to do some more research and perhaps make 
changes in the next  edition of your book.

ANSWER:  LOL. You kill me.



> Yes, they do know, don't they. And what does the word in 
question mean? "Poisoner", not "Witch". Sure, *that's* a reason 
to burn little old ladies with cats at the stake, throw them into 
ponds, ad nauseum ad infinitum...\

ANSWER: Ok ok ok, here we go, witch trials witch trials, blah 
blah blah blah blah. First, the whole "poisoner" argument, pulled 
from works by witch Doreen Valiente (see "An ABC of Witchcraft") 
is just plain ignorant. The passage by the way about which you 
speak is Exodus 22:18. Anyway, the Hebrew word translated as 
witch is mekashshepa, and it was used in the Old Testament to 
refer to anyone who used magic/sorcery. Thus, the term would 
apply to all occultists, including contemporary witches. Moreover, 
in OTHER places in the Old Testament, this same word is used 
in context of occult practices, not poisoning (Ex. 7:11; Deut. 
18:10; 2 Chron. 33:6; Mal. 3:5). Second, regarding the witch 
hunts, give it a break. If yuo would read history, most of the ones 
who were burned  were actually CHRISTIANS!!! Hello. Sorry, to 
burst your bubble. But the charges were often leveled against the 
helpless, homeless, or others who had ticked off a neighbor. 
And the bunred ones never admitted their witchcraft due to 
personal beliefs in God. Also, the witch trials held by 
corrupt-paranoid Christan courts a short period of time in 
America and was isolated to a small settlement in new England. 
Nothinig was going on in nearby towns, which indicates 
something social-cultural was occuring in this one settlement. In 
Europe, a lot of the murders were done via political institutions. 
The burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs. You've 
been reading too much Wiccan propaganda and not enough 
history.

 
> Rubbish! "This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of the 
points in the book, and it is difficult to understand how 
"RICHARD" could have misunderstood." The Divination class 
and all its acts are not presented in a positive light. They're 
presented as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, to the extent  that 
Hermione, the most academic and sensible character we see, 
actually *leaves* the class because it's not worthwhile. The only 
reason Harry takes Divination . . . .

ANSWER: Oh, so now we suddenly know what divination is????


>is that Ron is doing so. I suspect the only reason Ron is doing 
>so is because it's an easy grade. The two boys are unable to 
>follow Hermione's lead in leaving because they are not taking 
>any extra classes which would let them replace it.
    
ANSWER: Interesting argument around teh facts. What about 
Bane and Fiorenza as star-gazers (read: astrologers)? What 
about Madame Trelawney's real channeling / mediumship 
prophecy that comes true? What about Hermione doing so well 
in spells, charms, herbology, numerology, arithmancy? You have 
a nice way of selecting snippets of info to back your arguments, 
but that is hardly intellectually honest.



> Moreover, the fictional/mythological acts described by JKR are 
>nothing more than stage magic, as opposed to occult 
>practices. You cannot read tea leaves as Trelawney does, nor 
>does her way of gazing into a crystal ball work. I honestly can't 
>remember any numerology in the books (unless you're talking 
>about Harry and Ron making up Divination homework), and the 
>"channeling"presented in the book has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with 
"real life" channeling.

ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic, 
occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up 
to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the 
channelling, Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC 
spiritism and mediumship. Again, sorry.


> Believe me, I've seen it done.
     
ANSWER: So have I. Also, I would say it is a bit closer to 
spiritism mediumship of the early 20th century, but channeling is 
simply an up-dated form of this for a yuppie crowd.


> Again, I find myself thinking that your research is flawed and 
wondering just how thoroughly you read the four books 

ANSWER______ Apparently more thoroughly than you. Oh well.


> Anybody interested in learning more about "the occult", Wicca, 
Witchcraft or Paganism should head on over to the excellent 
"Witch's Voice" at www.witchvox.net

ANSWER: Ahhh. The altar call for converts. Enjoyed our 
exchange.

RIchard Abanes




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 22:51:53 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:51:53 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ARGUS Filch
Message-ID: <LAW2-F40YI9IJsaJbqJ00000104@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17551




>Stephanie Roark Keener wrote:
> >
> > Here's something interesting:
> >  An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.
Margaret wrote:
>Well, actually there was only one of him, IIRC:  he "belonged" to
>Hera, who set him to watch over one of Zeus's many
>light-o'-loves.  Therefore he's a symbol of watchfulness.
>(Odysseus's dog was also named Argus).  That's our Mr. Filch, all
>right!

Also, he fell asleep on the job and was turned into a peacock, which has his 
100 eyes on its tail.  So, a symbol of a not-very-good watchman.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 15:11:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:11:05 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore
In-Reply-To: <9c420j+8ggd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4529+1nq9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17552

> > From: rabanesss at y... 
> 
> > Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
> > TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
> > handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
> > deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
> > done!!! Because Peter was allowed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
> > and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
> > causing evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds 
> > (lying, cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing about 
> > fun and goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ 
fantasy, I  don't know what is.
*********************************
I do not think that Harry sparing the life of Peter can be considered 
a bad thing, no matter what Peter goes on to do.

The idea was that Harry wanted them to *not kill Pettigrew, but to 
imprison him, instead* It was not Harry's fault that Pettigrew then 
got away and did his evil deeds. It was carelessness that Pettigrew 
got away. It was Pettigrew's choice to do evil. I suppose, given this 
knowledge, that Harry might not have made this decision to spare 
Pettigrew, but he was not. Neither were we given this information.

How did you feel at the time Harry spared Pettigrew and wanted him 
imprisoned, instead? Did you think, "No! Kill the rotten scum!" Did 
you think, "I am glad that Harry talked them out of killing?" 

I, for one, thought it was a very mature decision to choose to spare 
Pettigrew's life. (and I think if it came right down to it, Harry 
would not choose to harm Snape, even if he were given the chance) If 
Harry had not made this choice, there are a number of other Death 
Eaters who could have performed the evil deeds which Pettigrew later 
performed, so it is not as if Harry sparing him caused all the later 
problems. It was Pettigrew who made the wrong choices, but if not 
him, then someone else would. As long as there is the evil Voldemort 
and his evil followers, there will be evil in Harry's world.

Doreen






From john at walton.to  Tue Apr 24 15:10:48 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:10:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: _Harry Potter and the Bible_ 
In-Reply-To: <9c42vp+ifp0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B70B535B.216%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17553

(Admin note -- Richard, could you please leave "Harry Potter and the Bible"
in the subject line for those trying to filter out our discussion.)

I've just typed a long response to some of Richard's points when a thought
struck me.

Why on earth are we trying to ascribe Christian morals to Harry?

Nowhere in the books does it state that he is Christian.

The books are not intended as moral guidance. They are works of fiction.
IT'S NOT REAL. (Apologies to Dadgrid there...)

Why, therefore, do people (Sorry Richard) insist on attempting to ascribe
Christian -- or, heck, ANY religion's -- values to Harry and to the books?

____________________________________________

There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other,
and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them.
--'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' by JK Rowling

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________

--John




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 22 23:49:51 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:49:51 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Draco
Message-ID: <LAW2-F6407Al71xF4KU000126f6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17554

Magda quoted, then wrote:
> > Now my question is why would Draco, and from his comment, he
> > obviously *knows* what side the Potters were on, expect or even
> > want Harry to be on his side, and to be his friend?....
>
> > So why would Draco, being as we've established, not a
> > complete dunce, and knowing who Harry Potter is, seriously presume
> > to draw him into his circle of friends - Potter, Malfoy, Crabbe and
>
> > Goyle!! Does he think he can show Harry the light or something? If
> > so, I don't think that makes him too people-smart. If this has come
> > up before - please point me to the message number.. Thanks!!!
>
>Harry Potter is very famous and a legend in the wizarding world;
>enough attraction for Draco to want to be friends, as much as Draco
>understands that word.  But he has to impress Harry in turn and so he
>drags in all that "best families" stuff to show that he is someone
>himself.  Probably he wants to acquire Harry as a member of his
>circle.

Agree with all this - and I think he likes Harry at this stage - or is drawn 
to him.

>Draco isn't very people-smart, as you say.  Even Lucius is smarter as
>when he reminds Draco in Borgins shop that he should be making
>friends with Harry; a piece of advice that Draco ignores (indirect
>evidence to me that he doesn't fear his father).

I don't exactly disagree, but I think Draco is quite people-smart, in a way. 
  He knows how to hurt people, anyway.  I think Draco basically does fear 
his father, although he knows how to manipulate him as well - they 
manipulate each other.  In Madam Malkin's, he says "I think I'll bully my 
father into getting me [a racing broom]" - showing off, since he doesn't 
actually get one until the following year.  But he has learnt from his 
father, IMO, that bullying people works.  Why does he ignore the advice?  
He's just not able to hide his feelings that much - yet.  In the dialogue in 
Knockturn Alley, each is trying to use the other to get what he wants, but 
Dad calls the shots at the end of the day.  I'm afraid Lucius has got the 
son he deserves.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Apr 24 15:24:39 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:24:39 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter & the Bible - ?Thirty Per Cent?
Message-ID: <9c45rn+uhag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17555

Richard Abanes wrote:
> ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic, 
> occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up 
> to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. 


Being the research bunny I am, I just *had* to find this quote, since 
Penny is off being hugely pregnant and I didn't want to make her sort 
through her collection of JKR interviews to find this. 
So I went on to NEXIS and searched for the terms "ROWLING" and ("one 
third" OR "thirty! percent") to see if Mr Abanes' statement is 
correct.
And here is what I found - a direct quotation as published in the 
Boston Globe, October 18, 1999
"I have done a healthy amount of research on the subject of folklore 
and the history of magic. As for the magic in the books, about one 
third of it is based on what people used to believe and about two-
thirds I invented. The dementors are creatures I made up, but the 
hippogriff is something people used to believe existed. I have fun 
taking liberties with magic, but no one could ever want to use my 
books as a reference."

In the same article, she is also quoted as saying, "I don't believe 
in magic as it occurs in my books - the wand-waving and spell-casting 
type of magic. ... But I do believe in magic in a figurative sense," 
she said. "For example, learning to read is a kind of magic that 
happens in the lives of children. No one knows how it happens - one 
day a child is trying to decode letters and sounds and the next week 
he or she is reading and understanding sentences. It's a magic that 
is metaphorical." 

In my honest, humble opinion, I believe that *if* Mr Abanes is using 
this interview/quotation as the source for his statement that I 
quoted above, he is mischaracterizing what JKR said. If he's using 
another interview, I'd like the citation to it, please.







From margdean at erols.com  Tue Apr 24 14:41:46 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:41:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ARGUS Filch
References: <LAW2-F40YI9IJsaJbqJ00000104@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AE590AA.82DBA410@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17556

Morag Traynor wrote:
> 
> >Stephanie Roark Keener wrote:
> > >
> > > Here's something interesting:
> > >  An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.
> Margaret wrote:
> >Well, actually there was only one of him, IIRC:  he "belonged" to
> >Hera, who set him to watch over one of Zeus's many
> >light-o'-loves.  Therefore he's a symbol of watchfulness.
> >(Odysseus's dog was also named Argus).  That's our Mr. Filch, all
> >right!
> 
> Also, he fell asleep on the job and was turned into a peacock, which has his
> 100 eyes on its tail.  So, a symbol of a not-very-good watchman.

Well, he had Hermes to =put= him to sleep (for good!), so he
can't really be blamed for it.  Hera put his eyes on the tail of
the peacock (her bird) as a memorial.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Apr 24 15:44:36 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:44:36 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4529+1nq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4714+ti3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17557

OOPS! I thought, when I wrote my response, that I was in a "Harry's 
choice... good or bad?" type of discussion. I did not realize that I 
had stepped into the middle of a fanatical rant. 

Abanes ... go write your book. This group is for people who read the 
Harry Potter books, enjoyed the Harry Potter books, and for the 
ENJOYMENT of discussing the Harry Potter books. I do not see people 
enjoying your line of debate. I do not know why people are bothering 
to defend Harry Potter against religious fanatics. This is not the 
place for it. Maybe "Religious Fanatics-R-US" would be a better place 
for your fun poisoning commentary.

In other words, chill out! You have become to this list like dog poop 
on our shoes.

Doreen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> > > From: rabanesss at y... 
> > 
> > > Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
> > > TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
> > > handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
> > > deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
> > > done!!! Because Peter was allowed to live, Cedric dies in book 
4 
> > > and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
> > > causing evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds 
> > > (lying, cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing 
about 
> > > fun and goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ 
> fantasy, I  don't know what is.
> *********************************
> I do not think that Harry sparing the life of Peter can be 
considered 
> a bad thing, no matter what Peter goes on to do.
> 
> The idea was that Harry wanted them to *not kill Pettigrew, but to 
> imprison him, instead* It was not Harry's fault that Pettigrew then 
> got away and did his evil deeds. It was carelessness that Pettigrew 
> got away. It was Pettigrew's choice to do evil. I suppose, given 
this 
> knowledge, that Harry might not have made this decision to spare 
> Pettigrew, but he was not. Neither were we given this information.
> 
> How did you feel at the time Harry spared Pettigrew and wanted him 
> imprisoned, instead? Did you think, "No! Kill the rotten scum!" Did 
> you think, "I am glad that Harry talked them out of killing?" 
> 
> I, for one, thought it was a very mature decision to choose to 
spare 
> Pettigrew's life. (and I think if it came right down to it, Harry 
> would not choose to harm Snape, even if he were given the chance) 
If 
> Harry had not made this choice, there are a number of other Death 
> Eaters who could have performed the evil deeds which Pettigrew 
later 
> performed, so it is not as if Harry sparing him caused all the 
later 
> problems. It was Pettigrew who made the wrong choices, but if not 
> him, then someone else would. As long as there is the evil 
Voldemort 
> and his evil followers, there will be evil in Harry's world.
> 
> Doreen




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 15:54:13 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4714+ti3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424155413.80831.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17558

I would like to register a protest about the tone of Mr. Abanes' last
post.  It does not sound to me like that of someone interested in the
give and take of discussion.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 16:12:45 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:12:45 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4714+ti3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c48lt+52it@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17559

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> OOPS! I thought, when I wrote my response, that I was in a "Harry's 
> choice... good or bad?" type of discussion. I did not realize that 
I 
> had stepped into the middle of a fanatical rant. 
> 
> Abanes ... go write your book. This group is for people who read 
the 
> Harry Potter books, enjoyed the Harry Potter books, and for the 
> ENJOYMENT of discussing the Harry Potter books. I do not see people 
> enjoying your line of debate. I do not know why people are 
bothering 
> to defend Harry Potter against religious fanatics. This is not the 
> place for it. Maybe "Religious Fanatics-R-US" would be a better 
place 
> for your fun poisoning commentary.
> 
> In other words, chill out! You have become to this list like dog 
poop 
> on our shoes.
> 
> Doreen

I've been watching this whole debate unfurl on my screen today and 
was determined not to get involved.  However, at the risk of being 
rude (and I know that it takes Doreen a lot to be the same) I would 
like to second everything Doreen has just said.  

I read these books because I enjoy them and they provide escapism for 
me.  Although I think that they are very moral books, I am quite able 
to accept that other people do not share my views.  However, I am 
certainly not prepared to get sucked into a debate about 
Christianity, as I think that it is largely irrelevant to discussion 
on HP.  For me, the books have a generic morality which transcends 
individual religions.

I do not understand what you are trying to achieve by being so 
negative on a site which is dedicated to positive views of Harry 
Potter.  Are you trying to convert us?   As the one thing everyone on 
this list has in common is their love of Harry Potter, you have set 
yourself a pretty hard task.  Love of Harry Potter notwithstanding, 
there are also many Christians (including ministers) on this list who 
are apparently much more open minded than you are. 

I get a strong feeling that the only reason you have decided to speak 
up is because Dave advised us not to buy your book.  I can understand 
your desire to defend both your book and your view point, but I 
reiterate, I think that you are fighting a losing battle here. - It's 
futile, particularly when your messages come across as being quite 
snide and illmannered.  That is quite unnecessary and isn't going to 
endear you to anyone.

Quite frankly, the whole thing has left me with a sour taste in my 
mouth.

Catherine






From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 16:24:47 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:24:47 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <B70B535B.216%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c49cf+d9p0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17560

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> (Admin note -- Richard, could you please leave "Harry Potter and 
the Bible"
> in the subject line for those trying to filter out our discussion.)
> 
> I've just typed a long response to some of Richard's points when a 
thought
> struck me.
> 
> Why on earth are we trying to ascribe Christian morals to Harry?

At the risk of being me too-ish, I have to add a big YES to this. Why 
is it necessary to believe he is? Why is it relevant to the HP books 
as a whole, which do not deal with sectarian concerns?

> 
> Nowhere in the books does it state that he is Christian.
> 
> The books are not intended as moral guidance. They are works of 
fiction.
> IT'S NOT REAL. (Apologies to Dadgrid there...)
> 

I think they are moral points in HP, but they are more about ethics 
rather than religion. The morals have more to do with timeless, 
ecumenical values rather than chapter and verse biblical citations. 
If they coincide, it doesn't mean that Rowling is necessarily basing 
everything off the Bible, but merely shows universalism, and how 
Biblical values have are part of Western culture. But then we had 
might as well start talking about the Enlightenment Harry too, 
because of the tolerance themes in the book. Next up for discussion:  
Harry Potter, existentialist hero. :P

> Why, therefore, do people (Sorry Richard) insist on attempting to 
ascribe
> Christian -- or, heck, ANY religion's -- values to Harry and to the 
books?
> 

Yes. Just like I said above, someone could write an essay describing 
how Harry Potter would be considered as a Confucian, and whether 
Confucian values are supported by HP. Or Taoism. Or we could talk 
about whether Dumbledore would be considered a good military leader 
by the guy who wrote the Art of War (he has some choice things to say 
about the terrific importance of spies and subterfuge. :)) But I 
wouldn't take these discussions too seriously, nor would I claim that 
they are the key or even anything but marginal sidenotes. Actually, 
some of them might be sort of fun. Bottom line:  not all comparative 
literary endeavors are well conceived or illuminating. 

Charmian




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Apr 24 16:25:57 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:25:57 -0400
Subject: HP and religion/Religion in HP
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08AE@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17561

Hey, everyone, Gwen is catching up on lots of traffic over the weekend.

Midst all this talk about HP and its implications for several branches of
religion, I have to agree with many: that HP is not about, nor meant to be
interpreted in terms of, any particular faith. The ethical, moral, and
humanistic issues that the books address span a broad spectrum of behavioral
and cultural codes. If anything, I believe the only arena equipped to
examine these implications is one of secular humanism. It is the context
that allows the most leeway for acceptable behaviors and the least amount of
additional layers to be added on--such as dogma from this or that or the
other religious context. Indeed, I believe Rowling went to lengths to show
that the wizarding world is as much a cross-section of the outer, Muggle
society as anything. Which brings me to the real purpose of this post:
adding my "me too" to Rita's views on religion IN HP.



> Seattle de Taelore wrote:
> > I know this has been brought up before in a way, but I
> > was wondering about Wizard religion. (snip)
> > Then I got to thinking, what if the wizarding world
> > has religions, similar to those of the muggles, and
> > yet without all that "witches are evil" stuff.  For
> > example, are there Catholic and Muslim and Jewish
> >  witches?  Mayhaps they have their own kinds of
> >  religions?
> 

And Rita Prince Winston answered:
> One of my favorite things to try to figure out.
> 
> I feel CERTAIN that there are Catholic and Muslim and Jewish 
> witches --
> in every generation there are a number of Muggle-born witches and
> wizards, some of whom would have been raised in religious families of
> all the common religions, and I can't imagine that they would 
> give up a
> religion they believed in just because of going to school at Hogwarts.
> The Patil twins, Parvati and Padma, were almost certainly raised in a
> Hindu family (of which there are many in Britain) because 
> they are named
> after Hindu goddesses with a South Asian family name. I wish we saw
> something about Parvati celebrating some Hindu holy day. I 
> wish JKR had
> mentioned some student with a Muslim name.
> 

What about Ali Bashir, the Middle Eastern wizard trying to repeal the ban on
flying carpets? I'm reasonably certain there's a good chance he's a Muslim.

Rita continued:
> I fantasize that rather  than the main religion of old pureblood
> wizarding families being a distinct wizarding religion, perhaps
> descended from Druidism or NeoPlatonism, that in Britain it is the
> Anglican religion. In my fic, I have some wizarding folk going to
> regular Muggle church with Muggles. I further fantasize that Hogwarts
> until recent years had an Anglican chapel and compulsory 
> Sunday worship
> services. That just seem so old-time English. Don't bug me about
> Hogwarts actually being in Scotland.

Brava, Rita! I wholeheartedly agree with you (and I also implied my belief
in my fic, where Albus Dumbledore alludes to mandatory church attendance in
the 19th c). IMO, the founders were probably Catholic, it being the dominant
religion at the time (though in 1000 AD there were still many who weren't,
most of those people had been baptised or at least professed to be
Catholic). So maybe Rowena, Helga, Salazar, and Godric came from different
religious backgrounds. Whatever. Since their time, other administrators have
run the school, and they may have done so with a higher regard for and
emphasis on the importance of religious education as well as magical. As
time passed, these administrators have had to learn to respect other
religions, so less emphasis is placed on any particular faith.

However, there is ample evidence that in the modern era (Harry's time),
vacations and holiday structures are still based on the _assumption_ that
most people are from a Christian (Anglican) background, although it is also
clear that not everyone is a practicing Christian. Again, to use Rita's
example, Padma and Pavarti are probably not Christian, nor (I'm betting) is
Lee Jordan. There are also people who probably are nominally Anglican
(Hermione, Harry, Dean, etc.) but who are not particularly devout--not
surprising, considering that in general, families emphasize religion in
their daily lives less now than they did ten or twenty-five years ago, and
certainly less than they did in the 50's and previously. And I think there
are a number of students who are pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Asatru,
fill-in-the-blank, as well. 

I think Hogwarts still does have a chapel and there are students who are
raised with a deep-seated belief in their religious education. But, as is
the case in many countries, there is less pressure on schools--even boarding
schools--to provide religious instruction than there was, say 50 or 100
years ago. It is not felt to be the responsibility of the teaching staff,
even though students spend such protracted amounts of time away from home. 

I think it's worth stating again that the wizards and witches of Harry
Potter are a cross-section of society: rich, poor, religious, agnostic,
good, bad, nice, mean, and everything in between. For more on this topic,
see my other message about it (14760) and the conversations around that
thread at that time.

Gwendolyn Grace



From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 16:34:41 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:34:41 -0000
Subject: Sparing Pettigrew and Harry's Ethics. 
In-Reply-To: <9c4529+1nq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c49v1+gedi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17562

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:

> I do not think that Harry sparing the life of Peter can be 
considered 
> a bad thing, no matter what Peter goes on to do.
> 

Yes. I'm speaking secularly here of course, but I think it actually 
is an interesting point of Rowling's. She has Harry show mercy. 
Besides, I don't think it would be proper, even if you think 
Pettigrew deserves it, to have him killed vigilante fashion. It would 
be better for all concerned, including Sirius, if Pettigrew were 
tried and brougt to justice publically. 

It would be rather utilitarian for Harry to spare him because he 
thinks Pettigrew might be useful to the cause later on, or because he 
hoped Pettigrew would pay him back. But I actually think more of 
Harry because he does this without hope of reward. I think this is 
better than if Rowling implied that the reason people should be good 
is because then good things will happen to them. What sort of message 
would this send to children? 

To me this turns doing the right thing, which you do because it is 
right, into something you do in hopes of a reward. Then could you say 
that you'd really be good, if you're doing it because of the probable 
consequences? Then this just turns evil into stupidity. Harry may be 
rewarded because of saving Pettigrew sometime. We don't know. But the 
point is that Harry wasn't thinking about this when he saved him. 

Charmian





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 16:38:37 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:38:37 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
Message-ID: <9c4a6d+31l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17563


>Regarding Harry letting Peter go -- 
>TRUE, this is an act of mercy. HOWEVER, how does Rowling 
>handle this rare good deed??? She ends up having the good 
>deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have ever 
>done!!! Because Peter was allwed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
>and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed 
>causing evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds 
>(lying, cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing about 
>fun and goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ fantasy, 
I 
>don't know what is.

And when truly good deeds in real life beget very evil consequences 
(as they often do) ? are you consistent enough to denounce the 
Author? And if you let that pass - why should it bother you that JKR 
refelcts that in a fictional story (where, let me remind you, nobody 
actually gets hurt). 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rabanesss at y... wrote:
> ANSWER: <snip> Let me just say that if you carefully go through 
each 
> book, you will see a consistent presentation of "good" characters 
> doing bad things when ENTIRELY unnecessary (thus preventing 
> any argument of "well-they-had-to-lie-in-order-to-etc.-etc." A few 
> examples for those who know the Potter series:
> 
> 1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT 
> throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry 
> would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone 
> else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.
> 2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under 
> per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws 
> against illegal pets.
> 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
> about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so 
> beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to 
> lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.
> 4. Hagrid, as lovable as he may appear to be, actually is one of 
> the biggest rule-breaking, misbehaving, self-centered, 
> law-breaking criminal of the series. Oh, and if you notice, he is 
> regularly drunk!! Again, what a great role-model.
> 5. Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
> guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
> His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
> wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
> arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
> be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
> sell it). And he lies to his wife -- great.
>     Just a few of MANY examples. My book lists hundreds.
> 


(The following point has been made ad nauseum, but..)

A few examples of good characters doing bad things (not from HP):

Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and tempted Adam to do the same.

Adam ate of the forbidden fruit.

Abraham exiled Hagar and his son, Ishmael.

Levi and Zebulun slaughtered all the residents of Shechem.

Moses broke the Covenant stones in rage; smote the rock.

David sent Uriah to be killed in battle to free Uriah's wife for 
seduction. (David has a long list of sins, I just settled for the 
worst.)

Solomon established pagan temples.

Peter denied knowing Jesus.


Hmmm.. think that's a suitable book for innocent little Chirstian 
kiddies to read? Tsk, tsk, might give them ideas
 Might even promote 
teenage violence?

And regarding current day teenage violence being connected to 
occultic practices, I personally do not know whether this postulated 
connection is well-established. 
I would however like to point that there is a VERY well-established 
connection between teenage violence and child abuse. 
If you are so troubled by teenage violence, why are you off on a 
crusade against a fantasy book and not against abusive parents or the 
lack of funds for social services or the lack of funds for education? 
How about a crusade agains social indifference and collective 
cruelty? Why not put that world-changing passion of yours where it 
would actually help?


Naama






From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 16:45:42 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:45:42 -0000
Subject: (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)V. & Potions
In-Reply-To: <9c3st0+rcpr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4ajm+u8mj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17564

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> Quite right - but I said "hurt"  - not kill.  I was thinking more 
> along the lines of the fact that if Snape got an inkling that 
> Voldemort wanted to kill the Potters - and we know that they were 
> targeted and that a spy of Dumbledore got wind of it - perhaps this 
> was enough to bring Snape to his senses.  It didn't necessarily 
need 
> to be a reaction to something after the fact.  


I guess what I am trying to say is that I think it would take more 
then just something to do with the Potters to have Snape come to the 
good side.  Something that affected him in a very real, personal way.

Someone else mentioned Snape's work with potions.  I too believe that 
is what Snape's role as a Voldemort follower was. He was Voldy's 
potion master. Though I don't lean toward *Snape went back to the 
DE's*, I do believe Voldemort might give Sev a second chance.  
Something tells me that potions will end up playing a large role and 
who better to have on your side than one of the best? Oh, I also 
think potions has already played a large role that we haven't seen 
yet.

Koinonia  




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 17:03:44 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)V. & Potions
In-Reply-To: <9c4ajm+u8mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424170344.79864.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17565

> Someone else mentioned Snape's work with potions.  I too believe
> that is what Snape's role as a Voldemort follower was. He was 
> Voldy's potion master. Though I don't lean toward *Snape went back 
> to the DE's*, I do believe Voldemort might give Sev a second 
> chance.  Something tells me that potions will end up playing a 
> large role and who better to have on your side than one of the 
> best? Oh, I also think potions has already played a large role that

> we haven't seen yet.
> 
> Koinonia  

I wonder if Snape turned to potions after his time as a DE as a form
of therapy - throwing himself into something new after his
experiences.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mdartagnan at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 17:13:27 2001
From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:13:27 -0000
Subject: Abanes Answers Witch
In-Reply-To: <9c44lb+gt0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4c7p+v3h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17566

Hello.

Though I really enjoy the discussions here, I seldom post (basically, 
for lack of time and for Spanish being my main language, so excuse my 
grammar). Anyway, I'd like to comment a couple of points about what Mr. 
Abannes has written regarding Harry's ethic.


> > Simon's point, that Harry rescues Gabrielle at this juncture, as 
> well as  saving Pettigrew's life in PoA, is excellent. Surely this 
> does show moral fiber?
> 
> ANSWER: See my posted response to simon.


I wouldn't like to begin a religious debate, and I won't do it. But, if 
the chance to save a life falls in our hands, should we JUDGE who 
deserves it and who doesn't? Gabrielle was an innocent, Petter was a 
traitor... but both are HUMAN BEINGS that deserved the chance to live. 
We don't have the right to decide who lives and who dies, and that 
point is perfectly made by Mrs. Rowling with Cedric's death. 


> 1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT 
> throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry 
> would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone 
> else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.


Anyway, it's precisely Harry's integrity that forces him to cheat, by 
telling Cedric the first task is dragons. He knew everybody but Cedric 
were already preparing for them. He knows Cedric might get hurt, maybe 
even killed. By telling Cedric, remember, he's placing himself in a 
disadvantage (he doesn't know as much magic as Cedric). If being fair 
and even loyal, maybe cheating, reflects a lack of integrity... I'd 
wish all my friends lacked such integrity as well.



> 2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under 
> per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws 
> against illegal pets.


But, wasn't it obvious that Harry, Ron and Hermione tried to make 
Hagrid change his mind? What should they do: quit on Hagrid, stop being 
their friends because of that? If we only looked for perfect persons as 
friends, we would be left alone in this world.



> 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
> about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so 
> beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to 
> lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.


On one hand, I guess you've forgotten that the main characters are 
teenagers.
And have you heard of pious lies? Maybe that's what Dumbledore refered 
to by "generally".


> 4. Hagrid, as lovable as he may appear to be, actually is one of 
> the biggest rule-breaking, misbehaving, self-centered, 
> law-breaking criminal of the series. Oh, and if you notice, he is 
> regularly drunk!! Again, what a great role-model.


But he's absolutely loyal, truthful with his friends, noble, brave, 
loving, generous (please notice he's the first person in Harry's life 
that's actually kind and loving to him). In my opinion, that's more 
than a compensation for his rule-breaking. 

BTW, I've always had a doubt... It seems to me that role-models should 
be real persons, like parents or friends and, of course, religious 
figurees. Why do some persons insist on looking for role-models in the 
media or literature? 


> 5. Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
> guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
> His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
> wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
> arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
> be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
> sell it). And he lies to his wife -- great.

Please, read my comment about Hagrid. Mr Weasley is, actually, the only 
caring father figure in the whole series. THE ONLY ONE. And, you know? 
With all his flaws, his sons and daughters LOVE HIM. That's more 
important than breaking rules, don't you think? 

Or, are the Weasleys in an ethical mistake for loving this caring 
father and accepting him just like he is? 



> Wake up. Oh, by the way, Sean Sellers, executed on Feb. 4, 1999 
> was a practicing occultist when he brutally murdered 3 people, 
> including his parents in 1986. 


No, sir, you're the one who must wake up. Religious intolerance has 
killed ?and still is? lots of persons in this world. Their only crime 
was having a different faith (be then Jews, Gypsies, Latinamerican 
Natives). I'm not saying that deaths causes by occultism are less 
important, in no way... But before criticizing others, we should 
criticize first OURSELVES and "accept" whatever mistakes our Religion 
or Racial group has done. If our religion or race is free of guilt, 
then... be my guest and begin criticizing.


> ANSWER: My gosh, where do you get your information? Go read 
> som ereal history rather than materials generated by pagan 
> organizations and Wiccans who revise history in order to fit their 
> needs today as 21st century neo-pagans I would ask that people 
> on this board simply go do some non-fiction reading (history) to 
> get the straight scoop on the above.


I think you're underestimating most of the persons who post here. You 
should, first, learn which are our professions or hobbies before 
stating that we don't read any history or non-fiction. Yes, that means 
researching.

Or do you think you're the only one with a college degree here? 

Please, if we are to continue this debate, you don't need to be so 
sarcastic. 

> ANSWER: You are a pagan? And you do not know techniques of 
> divination???? Now you are playing games. That's like a football 
> player saying he doesn't know what the words offense and 
> defense mean. PA-leese.


Please, you're being treated kindly and we're reading your messages. 
Your sarcasm is completely innecesary.
To continue this debate, please
a) Quote in the proper context.
b) Don't change the sense of such quote.
c) Don't be ironic.

And, as a sidenote... you don't have to be a pagan to know techniques 
of adivination, even if you don't believe in them.


> ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic, 
> occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up 
> to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the 
> channelling, Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC 
> spiritism and mediumship. Again, sorry.


I guess someone already answered this much better than anything I could 
have managed. ^^


> ANSWER: Ahhh. The altar call for converts. Enjoyed our 
> exchange.


Mr Abannes, I'm a catholic. I have Jewish, Christian and, in your 
words, Pagan friends. If I don't have Wiccan or Gypsy friends, it's 
because I haven't had the chance. I've found out we can all get along 
if we learn to *listen*.

I understand that you want to defend your book and your viewpoints, but 
believe me, this is not the right attitude. Maybe you should learn to *
listen*. And maybe, just maybe, to read. No, not Jo Rowling's book. 
Your Bible, which is filled with messages of Love and Tolerance, though 
many persons (thank God, a minority) refuse to understand.



Sincerely,
Marijose D?az





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 17:34:10 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:34:10 -0000
Subject: Psychic link/power revisited
In-Reply-To: <9c0409+5ku5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4dei+eseq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17567

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> I wonder if Harry has some kind of "mind control" ability, perhaps 
also 
> "inherited" from V. (as Parseltongue was).  I just got finished 
> listening to GoF again, and my feeling got stronger -- except now 
I've 
> narrowed it down to Harry as the power source.


I personally enjoy hearing these types of theories.  I believe there 
are going to be little things, maybe such as "mind control", that 
will come up in later books.  Harry probably has more powers than we 
could possibly know. As far as "mind control", I will be honest and 
say that it never occured to me.  When I read the books again I will 
keep that theory in mind. It is possible, I guess.    

 
Snape makes 
> Harry empty his pockets. Harry says Ron bought the contents for 
him.  
> Ron rushes in and says, paraphrasing, "I bought the stuff for him."
> > 1. How did Ron know Harry got caught?
> > 2. How did he know they were in Snape's office?
> > 3. How did he know Snape had made Harry empty his pockets?
> > 4. How did he know Harry had said Ron bought the stuff (and not 
Hermione)?


'Harry!' Ron said, stumbling forward and staring hopelessly at the 
point where Harry had disappeared, 'you'd better run for it!  If 
Malfoy tells anyone - you'd better get back to the castle, quick-'

I think both Harry and Ron figured Malfoy would run to Snape.  So as 
Ron tells Harry, 'you'd better get back to the castle.'  They will be 
looking for him.  I'm sure when Ron got back to the castle he went 
looking for Harry and would naturally look for him in the dungeons.  
Maybe Ron had been standing outside for just a short period of time 
when Snape told Harry to empty his pockets.  Still, I do think it's 
possible there could have been some mind control involved.


> > Later, in the shrieking shack, when they all blast Snape - could 
it have been Ron or Harry unconciously (for some reason I can't spell 
that today - several typos and it still doesn't look right :) 
transmitted his intent to the other two, and caused them to have the 
same response?  


This would be the best case for trying to prove Harry can use mind 
control.

   
> I think the link may have been there again, stronger in the 
compartment 
> on the train in GoF when they all blasted Malfoy - either Ron or 
Harry 
> decided to blast him, and transmitted the desire/direction to the 
rest 
> of them, so once again they act as one.


If Harry transmitted the desire to the rest of them, he would have 
had to been transmitting for some time.  The same goes for the scene 
in Snape's office.  Harry would have had to call (by mind) Ron to the 
office.  Harry would have had to call Fred and George to the train 
compartment.  I consider these two as the weaker of the example.  But 
if you leave Fred and George out of it then you do have Harry, 
Hermione, and Ron again testing their wands out at the same time. 

 
> > Could that be something else Harry got from V. (besides snake-
speech)?  V. was supposed to be really good at controlling people, 
wasn't he?

I would like to think Harry would have been a powerful wizard without 
the help of Voldemort.  Harry's eyes are still going to come into 
play and he got that from his mother.  Still, surely Voldemort passed 
on many of his abilities to Harry besides just being able to speak to 
snakes.


> Maybe it's just coincidence, but there seems to be a LOT of 
coincidence 
> of this nature:
> 
> GoF - Draco and Harry curse each other at "exactly the same time".
>     - Harry and Cedric stun the spider at "exactly the same time".
>     - Harry and V. utter their curses at "exactly the same time".
>     - The Trio, Fred & George on the train at "exactly the sane 
time".


It seems like they are just reacting to what is occuring at the same 
time.  For instance, even without mind control I am sure Cedric would 
has used his wand on the spider.  Draco/Harry and Harry/V...that just 
reminds be of the old Western shows where there is the standoff 
between the good guy and the bad.  They stare for awhile at each 
other and then draw.    

    
> What made me think of this again is the scene in the graveyard.  
When 
> V. wants to make Harry bow, I don't think he uttered a curse 
(correct 
> me if I'm wrong).  He ORDERED Harry to bow, and Harry felt is spine 
> curve
 

"I said, bow," Voldemort said, raising his wand___and Harry felt his 
spine curve....



'I think V.'s got "mind control", and Harry has it as well.

Again, I do think it's possible.  Voldemort does seem to have some 
type of ability to read minds or something along that line.  I 
personally think Snape and Dumbledore can do some mind thingys. 


> > Just another crackpot theory.  Any and all opinions welcome.


We'll just put your crackpot theory together with my Snape and 
Dumbledore theory!  We can shake hands when our brilliant theories 
end up being right !

I love reading far off ideas.  I have posted a few myself.

Koinonia





From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:01:19 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:01:19 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <3AE57984.83804AEE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c4f1g+9auf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17568

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> 
wrote:

> It occurs to me that you might have missed a reference or two. 
Dave is being a bit juvenile, but he's referring to what was done 
with the> "Schoolbooks" that Jo Rowling just brought out for 
charity purposes.  They were supposed to be facsimiles of a 
Hogwarts library book (Quidditch through the Ages) and one of 
Harry's schoolbooks (Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find 
Them). In Fantastic Beasts, there are  handwritten notes in the 
margins, as a student would doodle, "by" Harry, Ron, and 
Hermione. So Dave's not trying to desecrate your book, so much
> as doing an in-joke.

ANSWER: --------------OK.



> You've read the main books, I take it, so you know that the 
reference to> the toilet and getting it through Myrtle's adenoid is 
from Chamber of> Secrets. Again, he's doing an in-joke.
> I didn't really find this immature, so much as an attempt to set 
a> less-than-scholarly tone. He's providing a quick impression 
and > overview, not (at this point) doing a point-by-point with 
page> references.

ANSWER: --------------OK.



> As one of the chief interpreters an analyzers of Severus Snape, 
who has > had several brilliant, insightful, and downright 
ingenious posts > misunderstood, I do understand the 
frustration. <grins> But you must > yourself understand that one 
*can* understand a good argument and still honestly disagree 
with it. That they disagree doesn't mean they didn't understand.

ANSWER: --------------OK.


>[asked ofr specifics of unethical behavior]

ANSWER: --------------See another recent  another posting of 
mine.


> In the early days of Christianity, the rite of confirmation was a
> passage to just such mysteries. The hopeful, yet-uninitiated 
had to leave the worship at a certain point, when the initiates to 
the  mysteries celebrated those mysteries together. In fact, the 
Catholic  church has attempted to reclaim a bit of that "privileged" 
feel to the mystery of the mass, and RCIA students and others 
formally in the process of becoming members do, indeed, leave 
the mass and go study the day's readings while the 
congregation, the "initiated," celebrate the Eucharist. But I 
digress.

ANSWER: --------------Here we are digressing into History of teh 
church. Also, into the differences between Roman Catholicism 
and Protestantism and teh reasons for the Reformation. VERY 
complex, suffice it to say Biblcal Christianity, in teh first century 
before 325 a.d. had no myusteries attached to it, nor many of teh 
doigmas of Roman Catholicsom, which was set up as a 
political-religious institution that cared little for doctrinal purity, 
except when it cost them financial gain. Even today, go to Africa, 
South America, and Asia, and you see Roman Catholicism 
turning its head from populations that blend Catholicism with 
tribal occultism, and shamanism. Many of these voodoo 
adherants, macumba believers, and santerians are actually 
Catholics in good standings and teh churches are blended 
Catholic Pagan sites. Not really Christianity.


> Well, the books contain presentations of them. To call all of 
them positive, though, is a bit of a stretch. The only authority 
figures at  the school who are treated with anything less than 
dignity and respect are Gilderoy Lockhart (who was an 
illustration of incompetence) and  Sybill Trelawney, professor of 
Divination. All of Divination is treated  as having no substance 
and no merit, hardly positive. So I don't think  your blanket 
statement is actually correct.

ANSWER: --------------My point is that overall these things are 
represented in an appealing way. Thus, a curiosity could easily 
be inspired in children to get involved in occultism. It has and is 
already happening in Britian. Also I have received MANY e-mails 
from former occultists telling me that my book is right on, and 
that their dabbling in occultism began with such books. I also 
provide information from universities studies on exposing 
children to occultism through movies and entertainment.



> *You* may not. But it's a sensitive issue, we've read so much 
about banning and book-burnings and the like, by people who 
clearly haven't  put any thought into their reaction or their 
condemnation. I love that  you joined the list to discuss things, 
instead of simply writing us off  as uncultured heathen! But as a 
list, it must be admitted we have a bit> of emotional baggage on 
the issue, which I hope will be discarded as the discussion 
continues.

      ANSWER: --------------I do not favor or endorse, book 
censorship, bannings, or burnings.

Cordially,

Richard Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:06:03 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:06:03 -0000
Subject: _Harry Potter and the Bible_
In-Reply-To: <B70B535B.216%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c4fab+ipn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17569

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:


> I've just typed a long response to some of Richard's points 
when a thought struck me.  Why on earth are we trying to ascribe 
Christian morals to Harry? Nowhere in the books does it state 
that he is Christian.  The books are not intended as moral 
guidance. They are works of fiction.  IT'S NOT REAL. (Apologies 
to Dadgrid there...)  Why, therefore, do people (Sorry Richard) 
insist on attempting to ascribe Christian -- or, heck, ANY 
religion's -- values to Harry and to the books?


ANSWER________ EXCELLENT point, I am NOT trying to 
enforce my world view on others. My book is written from a 
Christian perspective, to a Christian audience, published by a 
Christian publishing house. It is primarily for Christians who 
maintain that teh HP is IS consistent with Christian / Biblical 
ethics, morality, and spirituality. My book is simply designed to 
say, no way, That does not work, and it may be harmful to SOME 
-- I said SOME -- children (religious or secular). Now, discussing 
it from a purely literary standpoint is a DIFFERENT issue.

R. Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:09:02 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:09:02 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4714+ti3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4ffu+4adg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> OOPS! I thought, when I wrote my response, that I was in a 
"Harry's  > choice... good or bad?" type of discussion. I did not 
realize that I   had stepped into the middle of a fanatical rant. 
> Abanes ... go write your book. This group is for people who 
read the  Harry Potter books, enjoyed the Harry Potter books, and 
for the  ENJOYMENT of discussing the Harry Potter books. I do 
not see people   enjoying your line of debate. I do not know why 
people are bothering   to defend Harry Potter against religious 
fanatics. This is not the   place for it. Maybe "Religious 
Fanatics-R-US" would be a better place  for your fun poisoning 
commentary. In other words, chill out! You have become to this 
list like dog poop on our shoes.

     Oh my, we DO have a religious chip on our shoulders, don't 
we? Well, I am sorry for any horrible experiences you have had 
that have turned you so antagonistic and bitter. I hope that 
someday that will change. And I do csincerfely mean that. Sorry if 
I have offended you.

Cordially,

Richard Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:10:21 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:10:21 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <20010424155413.80831.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c4fid+k4se@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17571

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> I would like to register a protest about the tone of Mr. Abanes' 
last  post.  It does not sound to me like that of someone 
interested in the  give and take of discussion.

ANSWER______ Uh, I didn't post it SOmeone named Doreen 
posted it.

R.Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:12:56 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:12:56 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c48lt+52it@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4fn8+f4jg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17572

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>I think that you are fighting a losing battle here. - It's 
> futile, particularly when your messages come across as being 
quite  snide and illmannered.  That is quite unnecessary and 
isn't going to endear you to anyone.

    Uhhhh. What a minute here. I am the rude one after what 
Doreen wrote so insultingly  about "poop" etc etc. etc.??? Odd, 
very odd.

R. Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 18:22:04 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:22:04 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4a6d+31l8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4g8d+itta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17573

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:

> (The following point has been made ad nauseum, but..)
= A few examples of good characters doing bad things (not from 
HP):  Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and tempted Adam to do the 
same.  Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. Abraham exiled Hagar 
and his son, Ishmael.  Levi and Zebulun slaughtered all the 
residents of Shechem. Moses broke the Covenant stones in 
rage; smote the rock. David sent Uriah to be killed in battle to 
free Uriah's wife for  seduction. (David has a long list of sins, I 
just settled for the  worst.)  Solomon established pagan temples.
 Peter denied knowing Jesus. Hmmm.. think that's a suitable 
book for innocent little Chirstian   kiddies to read? Tsk, tsk, might 
give them ideas
 Might even promote  teenage violence?

      Very clever, but also painfully stupid. Go back and maybe 
read some of tehse stories rather than just getting them off of a 
list of some kind, and then see what negative consequences 
happened as a resuult of teh bad deeds that were done-- 
message means bad deeds = bad consequences. Now let's go 
to little Harry and his friends and look at teh negative 
consequences of their deeds -- bad deeds = fun, excitement, 
funny stuff, good character. RARELY do Rowling's good 
characters suffere negative consequences as a result of their 
bad deeds I noted. Big difference between that and the Bible 
stories that clearly give a different message about people who 
make bad choices.



> And regarding current day teenage violence being connected to 
> occultic practices, I personally do not know whether this 
postulated  connection is well-established.  I would however like 
to point that there is a VERY well-established connection 
between teenage violence and child abuse.  If you are so 
troubled by teenage violence, why are you off on a  crusade 
against a fantasy book and not against abusive parents or the  
lack of funds for social services or the lack of funds for 
education? > How about a crusade agains social indifference 
and collective cruelty? Why not put that world-changing passion 
of yours where it  would actually help?

   How ignorant and judgmental. How do you know what I do with 
my time, or the community projects contribute to, or teh time I 
spend helping the homeless and battered children. You are so 
quick to attribute negative characteristics to someone just 
becasue they don't like a book. Interesting. And by the way, I am 
NOT on a crusade. My HP - related book is only one of NINE 
books I have written, one of which won teh Myers Award for 
Tolerance in America (1997) for my work on Racism. I was alos 
a guste speaker at the Simon Wiesenthal Center during their 
conference on Hate and acism in America. Anything 
"world-changing" enough in there for you???

Richard Abanes




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 18:48:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:48:18 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4fn8+f4jg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4hpi+bder@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17574

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rabanesss at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> >I think that you are fighting a losing battle here. - It's 
> > futile, particularly when your messages come across as being 
> quite  snide and illmannered.  That is quite unnecessary and 
> isn't going to endear you to anyone.
> 
>     Uhhhh. What a minute here. I am the rude one after what 
> Doreen wrote so insultingly  about "poop" etc etc. etc.??? Odd, 
> very odd.
> 
> R. Abanes

I reiterate what I have said before, having just read your latest 
batch of messages.  I think that Doreen was probably reacting to the 
overall tone of your messages, which do, indeed, come across as being 
quite fanatical.  

The overall tone of your messages IS rude, IS snide, and is sarcastic 
to boot.  You are talking down to people, and taking an 
intellectual/acadamic highground which is unacceptable considering 
that you do not know the relevant backgrounds of those to whom you 
address your messages.  

I refer to my previous question, which you have declined to answer - 
what do you expect to get out of this discussion?

One more comment.  I was brought up a Christian, have Christian 
friends - even Born Agains, who are more fanatical in their beliefs.  
However, they certainly wouldn't try and force their opinions on 
others in such a way as you do.  They certainly wouldn't talk down to 
anyone who did not share their beliefs.  You sound extremely angry 
and intolerant to me - surely this is not a Christian attitude?

Furthermore, you are missing the whole point of this list.  It is for 
the enjoyment and appreciation of Harry Potter.  There are probably 
people on this list of many different religions, beliefs, races etc 
etc etc - and this is the one thing which unites us.  I think that 
the moderators are quite right to bann certain contraversial issues 
on this list such as discussion of politics and the holocaust, as the 
atmosphere here is supposed to be friendly. If this discussion 
carries on in its current vein I will be tempted to ask the 
moderators to include religion in this veto as well.

Catherine

Catherine




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Apr 24 19:10:26 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:10:26 -0400
Subject: Snape and Lucius Malfoy (mostly Snape)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08B0@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17575

Hi-ho, it's Gwen, and I know, it's Harry week, but I'm still catching up on
old email:

Catherine wrote: 
> I think that Karkaroff is the one who has left forever, because to gain
his 
> freedom from Azkaban he denounced Rook, a DE, and tried to betray 
> others, who had already died or been captured.  Therefore he betrayed 
> Voldemort and his followers.  <Snip>.
> 
> Therefore it stands to reason that Snape is the one Voldemort thinks 
> is too cowardly to return.  I still believe that Snape did return to 
> Voldemort that night, at the request of Dumbledore, to begin spying 
> again.  Everything points towards this.  We know that Snape went 
> somewhere that night.  Dumbledore wishes him luck, is apprehensive 
> about what is going to happen, asks Snape if he is ready and 
> prepared.  If he was asking Snape to do something in the future, he 
> wouldn't speak quite in those terms.  I think Dumbledore and Snape 
> are also counting on the fact that Voldemort would accept Snape back 
> without doing him too much damage, because he would know that Snape 
> would be expected to be at Hogwarts, and now that Barty Crouch can no 
> longer be used, it would be too useful to have Snape there, 
> supposedly spying for him, to pass up on.  Therefore it seems likely 
> that Snape has returned, is spying for Dumbledore, yet Voldemort 
> expects Snape to be spying for him.
> 

I originally posted a while ago (during the discussion on the Death Eaters
chapter) that I believed that Karkaroff was the coward and Snape was the one
who'd left forever, and then a post similar to Catherine's (which stated the
opposite) convinced me it could be either way. However, I think whether one
believes Karkaroff=Coward or Snape=Coward, Snape must have done something
like going to them that night. He accomplished whatever task Dumbledore
asked of him, or he wouldn't be present at the leaving feast, so it was
something he could do and return in a short amount of time. Also, for all
Catherine's reasons above, he must return or he WILL be assumed to be a
traitor, and then his life is definitely in danger. Regardless of how risky
it was, he had to attempt it. We can also infer that it worked, because
again, he's back by the leaving feast at the end of term.


> > >Which raises the problem that Snape *was* at the DE meeting - 
> > which
> > > means he would have known that Lucius was there *and* saw 
> everything 
> > that
> > > happened to Harry.
> > 
> > Ah, if he was, I?ll immediately renounce everything I?ve ever said 
> in 
> > defence of him. The very idea he was there gives me the shivers!!! 
> > I?ve never even considered the possibility. Has anyone else?
> > 
> > > I mean, if Voldemort knows that Snape betrayed him, how can 
> Malfoy 
> > not know?
> 
> This, I don't understand.  I thought that Voldemort had gone through 
> everyone who was there.  My theory only works if Snape turns up later 
> and is one of the three missing who Voldemort refered to.  

Not exactly true, Catherine. Unfortunately, my GoF is on loan, but the
description of the scene in the graveyard doesn't specify either how many
DE's there are or how many are missing. It describes Voldemort moving
amongst them, talking to some, but not all of them, and we are given
detailed reports of what he says to Avery, Nott, and Malfoy. He does say
that the gap of six DE's is the largest gap, but we don't know how many
other gaps there are of one or two DE's who didn't return for whatever
reason. So while I believe that Snape is either the coward or the one who
'left forever,' we can't necessarily rule out other absences. 

If Snape _had_ been present, though, I find it unlikely Voldemort wouldn't
have said something. In which case, Harry would certainly have noticed.

> However, as regards Lucius Malfoy, I have always supposed that Snape was
not 
> told who all the other DEs were - afterall, he didn't know that 
> Wormtail was one - he seems to be very much Voldemort's secret 
> weapon.  Also, if he did know, doesn't it follow that Dumbledore 
> would also have been told?
> 
We don't know who knew about Peter beforehand, but I think it's safe to say
none of the good guys did--except the Marauders, who believed him above
suspicion. Doesn't Karkaroff say something at the trial about how only
certain members knew who their contacts were? It all depends on how elite
Lucius was, whether he knew the majority of the DE's or not--but I'm betting
only Voldemort himself knew every single name.

> I don't think that Voldemort does know that Snape betrayed him (see 
> above my first comments on Karkaroff's betrayal.  We know that 
> Dumbledore vouched for Snape - do we know how widely known this was? 

No, we don't. We know that from Harry's perspective through the pensieve,
there were lots of people there, but whether they were members of the
general public, like the witch at Ludo Bagman's trial who complemented his
Quidditch game, we don't know for certain. I find it unlikely that there
aren't DE's who found out about Snape's supposed spying, however. But Snape
could easily claim that he turned spy as a CYA maneuver, and that the
information he passed on to Dumbledore really didn't result in any tactical
advantage. In other words, he can claim to have been a "spy," (wink, wink),
the same way that Lucius claimed to be under the Imperius.

> Or was this supposedly part of Voldemort's plan?  To have Snape at 
> Dumbledore's side - not knowing that Snape is working for him 
> (Dumbledore?).  The possibilities are endless, but from canon, to me 
> it just makes more sense that Snape is the coward and Karkaroff is 
> the one who has left forever - otherwise what else could Snape have 
> done that night?
> 
More importantly (again), if he didn't go back that night, what possible
hope could he have later of escaping Voldemort's revenge?

Gwendolyn Grace



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Apr 24 19:13:15 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:13:15 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4fn8+f4jg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4j8b+o84e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17576

	I for one am enjoying the discussion and hope we can continue 
politely.  I am not Christian or pagan, so I can not discuss what is 
consonant with these beliefs. I would like to put in my two knuts about 
how moral issues are presented in HP.
  I am bewildered by the statement that Harry never suffers any 
negative consequences from lying. In Goblet of Fire, he finds that his 
credibility has been severely damaged. Even Harry's dearest friend and 
the members of his own House (his family at Hogwarts) think he is lying 
about putting his name in the goblet. The text does not make this point 
overtly, but it was the first thing I thought of when I asked myself, 
"Why doesn't Ron believe what Harry is telling him?" Ron knows that 
Harry is a skillful liar, and Harry suffers for it.
	As for Hagrid's drinking, it is shown to make him careless (when 
he gives away Fluffy's secret in SS/PS)  and ridiculous (when he tries 
to sober up by sticking his head in the water barrel in PoA), which in 
my opinion is a far more effective method of reaching children with a 
message on the dangers of alcohol than a lecture on the evils of drink 
would be. 
Pippin





From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 19:29:48 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:29:48 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's appearance(was Rosebushes)
References: <9c2fmt+odva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f901c0ccf4$efd564c0$bb2c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17577

>If Snape has allowed his hygiene and outward appearance to
>decline because there is nothing of significance in life for him,
>then how do we explain why he came to Hogwarts oily, slimy, and
>greasy?
>Koinonia

Greasy for me always meant that disgusting Seventie's kind of grease. He has
shoulder length hair and he wants his appearance to reflect his strictness.
Wouldn't do to look all mussed up and scruffy, would it? (I'd love to see
that but it doesn't really fit in the picture *we* have of Snape, does it?)
Having the hair "gelled" back would fit better into the way he likes others
to see him.

"Snape was swooping around like an overgrown bat, his long hair fluttering
behind him." Doesn't sound half as impressive - more like a corny
romance-novel ;-)

 ~ Dinah ~ (slightly biased - but I'd still bring the Shampoo bottle)

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the register, and like
Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."

---  J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Apr 24 19:32:59 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:32:59 -0400
Subject: Lupin and the Full Moon
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08B1@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17578

Yes, I'm still catching up.....
 
> Message: 19
>    Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:59:00 -0000
>    From: "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>
> Subject: Lupin and the Full moon
> 
> As I reread PoA again it brought up an interesting question about the 
> Shierking Shack sequence. Why does Lupin only transform when the full 
> moon came out from behind the clouds?  I always had the impression 
> that a werewolf transformed no matter what, it didn't matter whether 
> or not the moon was obscured. Is this a mistake on JKR's part or just 
> her idea that werewolves only transform when they are in the light of 
> a full moon.  Any thoughts on this?
> 
> Cheers,
>        Kristin
> 

Kristin,

It depends on which mythos of werewolves one goes by. In most cases, it's
the full moon, period. In some cases, it's whenever the full moon _is
visible_.

Am I the only person on the list who remembers the old B movies about the
Wolfman and especially movies like "Abbott and Costello meet the Wolfman"
and my favorite, Scooby Doo and the Wolfman?

In these paragons of horror films (note my tongue firmly wedged in my cheek,
here), it is a constant plot point that Joe Wolf goes from mild-mannered,
clean-shaven guy-next-door to Fuzzface el Supremo every time the moon peeks
out from a cloud. Invariably, this is when Scooby and Shaggy will see him,
but by the time they get Daphne and Velma and Fred, the clouds cover the
moon again, and Wolfie-boy is no longer hairy, so no one believes them.

There are other examples of JKR taking several cultural ideas and creating
an amalgam from them (e.g., gnomes/fairies/pixies, kelpies, broomsticks,
etc.), so perhaps this is one instance where it isn't necessarily a Flint,
but a less accepted mythos.

Gwendolyn Grace



From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 19:55:10 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:55:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abanes Answers Witch
Message-ID: <F73V8VeAIAoZzfrFrUP00006286@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17579

Okay... delurk post! I'm Cait, I'm new, and... wasn't going to get involved 
with this thread... oops. Replies cut and pasted, sorry if I've got them out 
of order.

Mr Abanes wrote:
>1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT
>throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry
>would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone
>else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.
>2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under
>per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws
>against illegal pets.
>3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just
>about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so
>beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to
>lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.

    Then I'd firstly recommend that you not allow YOUR kid to read the 
books. But I'd disagree with you that the truth is always better, because it 
isn't. By the time most kids are reading, they're begining to learn about 
social lies ("Thank you so much for the sweater, grandma!" vs. "Thanks for 
nothing, you mean old lady- I asked for a radio-controlled car and you got 
me a sweater.") While Harry *does* lie, he doesn't get away with it nearly 
all the time, and, when pressed about it, tells the truth. He gets in 
trouble for telling the truth, which is a very real concept. The admirable

I have a serious issue with the fact that people tell little children "You 
won't get in trouble if you tell the truth." This simply isn't true- if you 
broke Mom's favorite vase to be spiteful, you're going to get into trouble 
if you tell her about it right off or if you lie and say the cat knocked it 
off the shelf and admit it later- the difference is only in your own 
integrity and perhaps in the punishment.

The admirable thing about Harry is, he accepts the consequences of his 
words. Whether that's expected by the bible or not, it *is* an admirable 
trait.

> > Show me documentary evidence, by a *respected* source
> >(this would exclude  Bob Jones University and its ilk, by the
> >way). Not *one* child who has had  links to Paganism or the
> >occult (see below for definition) has ever killed  anybody or even
> >participated in any of the recent teen violence across the  US --
> >it's completely contrary to the tenets of Paganism. (Here, in
> >Paganism, I'm referring to many different Earth Religion paths.)
> >Perhaps you should have done some more research before
> >making statements  like that. Hope your book's not the same.
>
>ANSWER: Oh dear, you do have your head in the sand, don't you.
>Since I don't hav ethe time to list the hundreds of examples
>available. I suggest that you simply go to a search engine and
>enter phrases/words like "occult, murder" or "vampire cult" or
>"teens murder occult" -- you'll get all the examples you need.
>Wake up. Oh, by the way, Sean Sellers, executed on Feb. 4, 1999
>was a practicing occultist when he brutally murdered 3 people,
>including his parents in 1986. Also, occult involvement actually
>has indeed been identified as one of the warning signs of
>potential violence in a child, according to psychologist Reid
>Kimbrough of The justice Center, a Nashville-based organization
>that conducts seminars nationwide for law enforcement
>personnel and educators relative to youth and school violence.
>Also Norvin Richard, chairman of the Philosophy Department at
>University of Alabama says the same thing. (You asked for only
>ONE source, but here are two. Use Internet search engines for
>more).  Kimbrough, who since 1997 has been teaching his
>"Children at High Risk for Violent Behavior" course, says occult
>involvement includes a student listening to music which has
>death or suicide in its lyrics, possessing paraphernalia such as
>skulls, black candles or a satanic bible, preoccupation with a
>Ouija board or tarot cards, drawing satanic symbols on
>themselves or property and wearing black clothing. As they say
>in the X-FIles -- "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE."

It's worth pointing out that searching for occult and murder is going to 
bring back EXACTLY what you told it to- reports about the occult and murder. 
The Sean Sellers case is very old, and again, both of the sources you 
quoted, while not as rabid as Bob Jones, etc, are still biased.

> > Remember that the "mystery" in "mystery religions", as I said
> >earlier,  refers only to the "central mysteries", which *all*
> >religions have.  "Hidden" has NO NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS.
> >I can't stress that enough. If  members of a religion are
> >systematically hounded, tortured, murdered and  worse (Salem
> >Witch Trials, anyone?) simply because of their beliefs,
> >becoming "hidden" or "occult" is really rather a rational
> >response. So, witchcraft and Paganism quietly got on with their
> >practices and didn't tell  anyone lest they try to burn them at the
> >stake (again).  Again, I hope your book doesn't show this lack of
> >research.
>
>ANSWER: My gosh, where do you get your information? Go read
>som ereal history rather than materials generated by pagan
>organizations and Wiccans who revise history in order to fit their
>needs today as 21st century neo-pagans I would ask that people
>on this board simply go do some non-fiction reading (history) to
>get the straight scoop on the above.

What type of real history are you looking for? The Roman Empire, post 
Constantine, had severe penelties for being other than Christian, IIRC. Most 
religions other than Christianity were in medieval Europe, including 
Judaism. ("sustened by a lord of that contree / For foule usure and lucre of 
vileyne, / Hateful to Christ and to his compaignye."- the Prioress's Tale, 
Chaucer. Don't have a page number, this is from an e-text copy.)Much of 
western history has been marked by SEVERE intolerence of anyone different- 
not just witches/pagans/wiccans/whathaveyou.  In your defense, I'll admit 
that the SWT have little to nothing to do with paganism- I've never read a 
source that can point to any of the persecuted there being other than 
Christian.

> >Depends what you mean by the word "natural". As
> >nature-based religions, Paganism is totally natural by
> >definition. And could you define what you mean by a "channel of
> >knowledge"?
>
>ANSWER: The 5 senses and other means of knowledge
>obtaining (talking, reading, thinking, etc.).
>
> >I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "divination techniques";
> > could you clarify?
>
>ANSWER: You are a pagan? And you do not know techniques of
>divination???? Now you are playing games. That's like a football
>player saying he doesn't know what the words offense and
>defense mean. PA-leese.

Actually, many pagans *aren't* involved with divination. We don't all use 
it. I know any number of Christians who haven't got an idea of what saints 
are supposed to do. Also, as you most assuredly aren't pagan yourself, 
(Goddess forbid, I don't think we want you-) how did you come by this 
information?

> > You might want to do some more research and perhaps make
>changes in the next  edition of your book.
>
>ANSWER:  LOL. You kill me.

>
>
> > Yes, they do know, don't they. And what does the word in
>question mean? "Poisoner", not "Witch". Sure, *that's* a reason
>to burn little old ladies with cats at the stake, throw them into
>ponds, ad nauseum ad infinitum...\
>
>ANSWER: Ok ok ok, here we go, witch trials witch trials, blah
>blah blah blah blah. First, the whole "poisoner" argument, pulled
>from works by witch Doreen Valiente (see "An ABC of Witchcraft")
>is just plain ignorant. The passage by the way about which you
>speak is Exodus 22:18. Anyway, the Hebrew word translated as
>witch is mekashshepa, and it was used in the Old Testament to
>refer to anyone who used magic/sorcery. Thus, the term would
>apply to all occultists, including contemporary witches. Moreover,
>in OTHER places in the Old Testament, this same word is used
>in context of occult practices, not poisoning (Ex. 7:11; Deut.
>18:10; 2 Chron. 33:6; Mal. 3:5). Second, regarding the witch

<snipped here for relevence> Actually, there's equal arguments that it meant 
poisoner. Witch hunts were a seriously touchy thing when the King James 
Bible translation was published.


>hunts, give it a break. If yuo would read history, most of the ones
>who were burned  were actually CHRISTIANS!!! Hello. Sorry, to
>burst your bubble. But the charges were often leveled against the
>helpless, homeless, or others who had ticked off a neighbor.
>And the bunred ones never admitted their witchcraft due to
>personal beliefs in God.

Worth a note here- all of the ones in the US were homeowners, although some 
were unconventional- Rebecca Nurse is the best example of that. "The Devil 
in Massachusetts" quotes a journal from a contemporary (I'm sorry, all my 
books are still boxed up from the move) as noting her suspicous due to her 
wearing pants.

>Also, the witch trials held by
>corrupt-paranoid Christan courts a short period of time in
>America and was isolated to a small settlement in new England.
>Nothinig was going on in nearby towns, which indicates
>something social-cultural was occuring in this one settlement. In
>Europe, a lot of the murders were done via political institutions.
>The burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs. You've
>been reading too much Wiccan propaganda and not enough
>history.

Again. He has a point with the witch burnings in America, but we'll never 
know true numbers on the thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions 
(sources disagree on the numbers, and I really don't feel like even STARTING 
that argument today) persecuted during the witch trials, or the truth about 
them. Some of them confessed, some didn't, and, under torture like that, 
even the confessed ones' words are very suspect, I would think.

I also don't think it's fair to call the Inquisition a political 
institution, unless you'd like to call the entire medieval church the same. 
If the burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs, why on EARTH 
did they take place? The basis of Christian belief is the Bible, and the 
Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Reconcile those, please.


> > Rubbish! "This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of the
>points in the book, and it is difficult to understand how
>"RICHARD" could have misunderstood." The Divination class
>and all its acts are not presented in a positive light. They're
>presented as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, to the extent  that
>Hermione, the most academic and sensible character we see,
>actually *leaves* the class because it's not worthwhile. The only
>reason Harry takes Divination . . . .
>
>ANSWER: Oh, so now we suddenly know what divination is????

If that's the best argument you can come up with, far be it from me to 
reply.

> >is that Ron is doing so. I suspect the only reason Ron is doing
> >so is because it's an easy grade. The two boys are unable to
> >follow Hermione's lead in leaving because they are not taking
> >any extra classes which would let them replace it.
>
>ANSWER: Interesting argument around teh facts. What about
>Bane and Fiorenza as star-gazers (read: astrologers)? What
>about Madame Trelawney's real channeling / mediumship
>prophecy that comes true? What about Hermione doing so well
>in spells, charms, herbology, numerology, arithmancy? You have
>a nice way of selecting snippets of info to back your arguments,
>but that is hardly intellectually honest.

Neither are you, buster. Astronomers would also count as star-gazers. (If 
not, don't tell my friend the Astronomy major- that's her email!) Hermione's 
academic sucess has little or no bearing on the divination issue, which is 
what I thought we were talking about.

> > Moreover, the fictional/mythological acts described by JKR are
> >nothing more than stage magic, as opposed to occult
> >practices. You cannot read tea leaves as Trelawney does, nor
> >does her way of gazing into a crystal ball work. I honestly can't
> >remember any numerology in the books (unless you're talking
> >about Harry and Ron making up Divination homework), and the
> >"channeling"presented in the book has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with
>"real life" channeling.
>
>ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic,
>occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up
>to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the
>channelling, Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC
>spiritism and mediumship. Again, sorry.

Yup. Classic in the vein of Victorian stage acts and vaudville theatre.

> > Believe me, I've seen it done.
>
>ANSWER: So have I. Also, I would say it is a bit closer to
>spiritism mediumship of the early 20th century, but channeling is
>simply an up-dated form of this for a yuppie crowd.

> > Again, I find myself thinking that your research is flawed and
>wondering just how thoroughly you read the four books
>
>ANSWER______ Apparently more thoroughly than you. Oh well.
>
>
> > Anybody interested in learning more about "the occult", Wicca,
>Witchcraft or Paganism should head on over to the excellent
>"Witch's Voice" at www.witchvox.net
>
>ANSWER: Ahhh. The altar call for converts. Enjoyed our
>exchange.

This is the bit that got me mad, guy. Here's WitchVox's mission statement, 
taken directly from their webpage:

"Mission Statement: The Witches' Voice is a proactive educational network 
dedicated to correcting misinformation about Witches and Witchcraft. 
Witchcraft - Wicca IS a legally recognized religion in the United States and 
it is our mission to protect that right through education and awareness.

It is our belief that Witches are givers and healers! By keeping abreast of 
the latest news and updated information, as well as having ready access to 
critical resource tools, we, as Witches and Pagans, can not only empower 
ourselves, but develop programs to educate our local towns and cities on who 
we are and what we do."


Have a nice day!
Cait Hunter

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Apr 24 19:34:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:34:46 -0500
Subject: HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
Message-ID: <3AE5D556.C50DDCA1@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17580

Hi everyone --

Well, you get at least one more post from me before I disappear for
awhile ....

I've read through the posts from this morning & early afternoon.  I have
a few points to make:

1.  Mr. Abanes -- you just indicated that the tone of your posts was not
rude or sarcastic (you ascribed that to "someone named Doreen").  You
might want to take a look at the post titled Abanes Answers Witch
(#17550).  You were responding to John Walton's post, and indeed, your
response is arguably rude & sarcastic in tone at different points.  You
indicated yesterday evening that the forum is for *adults* and you asked
that we debate with you in a rational manner.  That is all well & good.
But, you should remember that typing in all CAPS is rude (common
netiquette rule).  It is considered the equivalent of screaming.

Remarks such as "You do have your head in the sand, don't you?"  and
"Ok, so now we suddenly know what divination is?" are unnecessarily rude
or sarcastic.  Remarks such as "pa-leese" also don't add to your case
for a rational debate.  In other words, you set the tone for messages
that followed that were perhaps not as polite to you as you might have
hoped.  But, you cannot expect that we will be polite & courteous to
you, while allowing you to speak in a sarcastic or rude manner to us.
In other words, please get the tone of the debates back on track by
employing a more politic manner yourself (you might want to review our
Netiquette Guidelines -- in the Files area).

2.  Please take note that this is a friendly but diverse group of
adults.  We are Christians, Jews, Muslims, pagans, Wiccans, no religion,
etc.  We span the globe.  The common denominator is that we are *fans*
of the HP books.  Someone has been asking you to please state your
objective in discussing your book with us, and you have thus far
declined to answer that question.  If your objective is to win converts
& have all of us suddenly "see the light" and renounce the evil HP
series, you have set yourself an impossible task.

3.  If your objective is to discuss your book with us, I would suggest
that you solicit an interested group of members to continue the
discussions off-list (or perhaps bring them back on-list).  At this
point, I don't believe anyone other than Dave has purchased or read a
copy of your book.  There might be a group of members who would be
interested in buying your book & debating the contents with you.  At
this point though, the debate is rather meaningless as none (or very
few) of us have read it.

You insinuated (quite strongly) in your message last night that *I* was
not being very intellectual in simply taking Dave's opinion of your book
at face value.  I would like to assure you that you mis-read my
message.  You might have missed my point that the brick & mortar
main-line bookstore chains in Houston do not appear to carry your book
in-stock.  Ahem. This means I went to the trouble of *asking* the
question of the bookstores.  I tried to find your book.  I checked the
HP section, religious section & New in Nonfiction sections at 3
different stores.  I asked the clerks -- none of the clerks queried had
any idea what I was talking about.  In each case, when they looked it
up, they said it was a title that they did not stock but could special
order for me.

I might still read your book as a point of intellectual curiosity.  I
would, however, have preferred to pick up a copy at my local B&N or
Borders & physically perused it first rather than ordering it sight
unseen from amazon.  Reason: The reviews on amazon.com (both those who
loved your book & gave it 5 stars & those who did not enjoy it so much),
now coupled with Dave's post, had made me leery that it's something that
I will find useful.  Now, I can add your posts to this group as yet
another reason that I might not be eager to buy it sight unseen.  This
doesn't mean I won't at some point -- but continued messages in a
sarcastic high-handed manner are likely to put me off a bit.

4.  You might also want to take note that the members of this group are
extraordinarily well-versed in the HP books.  Many of us can cite
chapters & quotes without even checking the books.  And, we do enjoy a
good debate.  We won't ban topics of discussion without good reason, but
if the posts regarding a particular topic become unnecessarily
contentious and tempers begin to flare, the Moderators may step in.

I won't be around much in the next few days or longer, but I trust that
the other Moderators are on top of this debate.

Penny






From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 20:13:40 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:13:40 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
Message-ID: <9c4mpk+9j2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17581

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and his 
scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

please go to this site 
http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me that i 
am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this detail.

a fellow hp fan has looked at this pic and agreed with me, she said,
'it looks like they just thought, damn, we cant see the scar because 
of his fring, oh well, we'll just move it!'


and if they have changed this detale, what else will the film makers 
do?

"gee, i think this hall would look better with 5 tables, anyone got a 
problem with that?"

"No"

"Whatever"

"Well acctually, there are 4 tables for a reason"

"Oh"

"Yes u c there r 4 houses"

"Oh well couldn't we add a new house?"


and so in the film look out 4 punkie house, it's animal is a monkey 
and colours are brown and orange!




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 20:32:06 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:32:06 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4g8d+itta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4ns6+ooho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17582

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rabanesss at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > (The following point has been made ad nauseum, but..)
> = A few examples of good characters doing bad things (not from 
> HP):  Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and tempted Adam to do the 
> same.  Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. Abraham exiled Hagar 
> and his son, Ishmael.  Levi and Zebulun slaughtered all the 
> residents of Shechem. Moses broke the Covenant stones in 
> rage; smote the rock. David sent Uriah to be killed in battle to 
> free Uriah's wife for  seduction. (David has a long list of sins, I 
> just settled for the  worst.)  Solomon established pagan temples.
>  Peter denied knowing Jesus. Hmmm.. think that's a suitable 
> book for innocent little Chirstian   kiddies to read? Tsk, tsk, 
might 
> give them ideas
 Might even promote  teenage violence?
> 
>       Very clever, but also painfully stupid. 

Thank you so much! Such a beautiful example of Christian forbearance 
and charity.

>Go back and maybe 
> read some of tehse stories rather than just getting them off of a 
> list of some kind, 

^-^ I have read the Bible. Several times in Hebrew. Bits of it in 
Greek. Large parts in English. The list was from memory. 

and then see what negative consequences 
> happened as a resuult of teh bad deeds that were done-- 
> message means bad deeds = bad consequences. Now let's go 
> to little Harry and his friends and look at teh negative 
> consequences of their deeds -- bad deeds = fun, excitement, 
> funny stuff, good character. 

Point taken. I didn't think of that aspect when I compiled my little 
list of good chracters doing bad deeds. I'd like to retroactively, 
if I may, add Jacob, the guy who cheated his way into his brother's 
inheritance. Lets think... became a wealthy patriarch, father of the 
chosen nation.. nope, can't think of bad consequences in this 
example. 

Also, I take issue with the postulated equation in HP of bad deeds = 
fun, ..etc. I take issue with that on two levels: 1. No good charcter 
has DONE any truly bad deed. All the examples you give are of 
breaking SCHOOL RULES, breaking MoM regulations and very mild lying. 
2. Most of these mild transgressions are either performed for a 
higher moral goal (help friend, fight evil, save world) or for 
harmless reasons. There is no evil intent (only the bad characters, 
e.g., Draco, transgress rules with bad intentions).


I'd like to go through your list of HP misdeeds:

- Arthur Weasley broke the Wizarding law that he is supposed to 
uphold.

The law has a purpose - to prevent Muggles being damaged by charmed 
objects and to maintain the secrecy of the Wizarding world.
Arthur broke the law, but not the spirit of the law - his intentions 
were good, or at least not bad. He was motivated purely by a 
(benevolent) curiosity in all things Muggle

Good consequences? No. He is publicly disgraced, pays a high fine and 
has a humungous fight with his wife.

>Hagrid is a criminal because he keeps illegal pets.

Criminal?! Do you call criminals people who keep dogs in building 
apartments where no pets are allowed? What term do you have left for 
drug pushers?

Good consequences? As I recall - no. Hagrid was originally EXPELLED 
because of keeping Aragog; his passion for dragons caused him to 
betray a great secret (which caused him great distress) and Norbert 
got himself and his friends into a lot of trouble; the blast-ended 
Skrewts got him in very hot waters (thanks to Rita Skeeter). What 
good consequnces?!

>Harry cheated at the Triwizard Tournament

Umm.. well, he didn't. It was the false Moody who cheated.

Good Consequences? Since it was the means to kidnap Harry and 
resurrect Voldemort.. no. No good consequences there.
(And, just to set the record straight, Harry *refused* Bagman's offer 
of help.)

I thought this description of Arthur Weasley extremely illuminating 
of your position:

>Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
>guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
>His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
>wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
>arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
>be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
>sell it). And he lies to his wife -- great.

Nothing but a "weak-willed hpocrite"? Even if I grant you everything 
you say of him (which I don't) - is that ALL there is to him? What 
about a kind and loving father and husband? A kind and caring friend 
for Harry? A man unswerving in his allegiance to the good side? 
And how can you compare his bewitching muggle artefacts to corrupt 
cops? Even as an analogy it doesn't stand, since Arthur Weasely 
tinkers with muggle artefacts for FUN, not for profit. 


You position seems to be that rules are more important than moral 
principles. That a little fallibility is more important than 
kindness and compassion. That following rules blindly is the essence 
of goodness? 
> 
> 
> 
> > And regarding current day teenage violence being connected to 
> > occultic practices, I personally do not know whether this 
> postulated  connection is well-established.  I would however like 
> to point that there is a VERY well-established connection 
> between teenage violence and child abuse.  If you are so 
> troubled by teenage violence, why are you off on a  crusade 
> against a fantasy book and not against abusive parents or the  
> lack of funds for social services or the lack of funds for 
> education? > How about a crusade agains social indifference 
> and collective cruelty? Why not put that world-changing passion 
> of yours where it  would actually help?
> 
>    How ignorant and judgmental. How do you know what I do with 
> my time, or the community projects contribute to, or teh time I 
> spend helping the homeless and battered children. 

Well, I know what you've done with SOME of your time, no? 

You are so 
> quick to attribute negative characteristics to someone just 
> becasue they don't like a book. 

I know several people who don't like HP. It's your reasons for not 
liking HP that I resent.


Interesting. And by the way, I am 
> NOT on a crusade. My HP - related book is only one of NINE 
> books I have written, one of which won teh Myers Award for 
> Tolerance in America (1997) for my work on Racism. I was alos 
> a guste speaker at the Simon Wiesenthal Center during their 
> conference on Hate and acism in America. Anything 
> "world-changing" enough in there for you???
> 

Yes. Very impressive. I suggest you continue with these activities.


Naama





From dorband at uwp.edu  Tue Apr 24 20:42:45 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:42:45 -0000
Subject: Richard Abanes - former member of the Way International
Message-ID: <9c4og5+78l6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17583

Although He is currently the director of the Religious Information 
Center of Southern California, an author of several books, a 
songwriter, a guest on radio/talk shows - hey, a real self-made 
celebrity ( Gilderoy Lockhart, anyone! ) - he's going to  blow his own 
horn all the way to the pearly gates; it seems that Richard Abanes was 
once gullible enough to belong to the Way International Cult.  So now 
that he's "seen the light" of REAL Churchianity he feels compelled to 
save us from ourselves - whether we like it or not. The worst kind of 
Born-Again - like the worst kind of reformed smoker, y'know?   His 
particular brand of crusading is irritating, but harmless.  Let that 
little light of yours shine, Mr. Abanes, hallelujah!  I just don't 
want it to shine in my eyes.  We all have our choices to make and our 
burdens to bear.
 
Apparently, he can't change his essence - whether as a member of the 
Way International Cult, a born-again churchian, or just an 
holier-than-thou nutcase.  It's his life.  His views are only his 
views - no more, no less. I truly wish him good luck in the hereafter, 
whatever he may perceive that to be. 

We appreciate you stopping by our little slice of heaven, Mr. Abanes. 
But you won't like it here.  What's more, we won't like for you to be 
here.   After a while (is this afternoon too soon?), we will get bored 
with you because, well, just because you are who you are.  The 
frustration caused by your unpleasant/ill-advised rantings will prompt 
the list-moms to revoke your membership. You see, this is not your 
forum, its ours, dedicated to all things HP.  Respect that, please, 
and maybe we'll let you stay...NOT!


Brian

   

Brian






From rucham78 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 20:43:50 2001
From: rucham78 at yahoo.com (rucham78 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:43:50 -0000
Subject: ref: Harry Potter and the Bible
Message-ID: <9c4oi6+tct5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17584

Hi Ive been reading the debate today about HP and the Bible and here 
is another site that people might find interesting. There is a whole 
lot of christian rhetoric against HP and the related founder's page, 
is very "informative" too. Its a yahoo club called Christian Alliance 
against Harry Potter
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/caahp
I came across it doing research for a paper I am doing on HP. 
Personally, I love him.
Rucha




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 20:57:21 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:57:21 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4g8d+itta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4pbh+jn13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17585

Richard Abanes wrote:

  You are so quick to attribute negative characteristics to someone 
just becasue they don't like a book. Interesting. And by the way, I 
am NOT on a crusade. 

> 
I have tried to stay out of this bit of debate because it just seemed 
pointless but this particular quote that Mr. Abanes wrote caught my 
eye.  It seems to me that he is calling the kettle black here. 

>From the posts I've been reading over the past 2 days you have been 
attributing negative characteristics to most everyone on this list 
because they don't like your book or it's tone. You ask for 
understanding yet the majority of your posts have been sarcastic and 
condensending while trying to get your points across. If you want 
intelligent debate then put forth arguments that are based solely on 
facts and are not jaded with emotional responses. Remember the 
Christian adage "do unto other as you would have them do unto you."
If you(and your views) want to be treated with respect than treat 
others with respect. If you feel someone has acted childish in their 
response to you then turn the other cheek and act like an adult, your 
points might come across better without all the sarcasm.

I would also like to point out the difference between occult and 
pagan since you seem to use these two words intercahangably. The 
definitiona are from Webster's New World Dictionary.

Occult-- 1.hidden;concealed 2. secret; esoteric 3. beyond human 
understanding; mysterious 4. designating or of certain alleged mystic 
arts, such as magic, alchemy, astrology, etc.

Pagan--  1. a person who is not a Chritian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen: 
formerly, sometimes applied specif. to non-Christians by Christians
2. a person who has no religion.

Just some things to think about.

Kristin





From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 20:58:02 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:58:02 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4g8d+itta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4pcq+u93h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17586

Richard Abanes wrote:

  You are so quick to attribute negative characteristics to someone 
just becasue they don't like a book. Interesting. And by the way, I 
am NOT on a crusade. 

> 
I have tried to stay out of this bit of debate because it just seemed 
pointless but this particular quote that Mr. Abanes wrote caught my 
eye.  It seems to me that he is calling the kettle black here. 

>From the posts I've been reading over the past 2 days you have been 
attributing negative characteristics to most everyone on this list 
because they don't like your book or it's tone. You ask for 
understanding yet the majority of your posts have been sarcastic and 
condensending while trying to get your points across. If you want 
intelligent debate then put forth arguments that are based solely on 
facts and are not jaded with emotional responses. Remember the 
Christian adage "do unto other as you would have them do unto you."
If you(and your views) want to be treated with respect than treat 
others with respect. If you feel someone has acted childish in their 
response to you then turn the other cheek and act like an adult, your 
points might come across better without all the sarcasm.

I would also like to point out the difference between occult and 
pagan since you seem to use these two words intercahangably. The 
definitiona are from Webster's New World Dictionary.

Occult-- 1.hidden;concealed 2. secret; esoteric 3. beyond human 
understanding; mysterious 4. designating or of certain alleged mystic 
arts, such as magic, alchemy, astrology, etc.

Pagan--  1. a person who is not a Chritian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen: 
formerly, sometimes applied specif. to non-Christians by Christians
2. a person who has no religion.

Just some things to think about.

Kristin





From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Tue Apr 24 21:01:51 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:01:51 -0000
Subject: Richard Abanes
Message-ID: <9c4pjv+l306@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17587

Hi there all fellow HP devotees,

If anyone is interested in Mr. Abanes (of recent HP4GU fame) other 
interests then they might find a search for his name on dejanews.com 
interesting.

This man stirs it wherever he goes. It is made quite clear that he is 
a fanatic in the definitive sense of the word. It appears to me that 
he systematically attacks anything contemporary which does not follow 
the exact word of the bible.



Dai




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 24 21:00:54 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:00:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
References: <3AE5D556.C50DDCA1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <002401c0cd01$aee0bfc0$72c74e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17588

Penny I agree with you! I love these books and I consider all the members as
family! Sorry about the confusion with Dave as moderator. But you and the
real moderators are like the older brothers and sisters of the group in a
matter of speech only.  You , all of you, keep the whole group right on
track as it should be. Fans of HP! I personally will not get that book end
of subject there! Hope you are fine and that you have your baby soon. Relax
you need it. My family is behind this group all the way. From a HP fanatic
and proud to be one!
Wanda the Witch in Revere
----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions


> Hi everyone --
>
> Well, you get at least one more post from me before I disappear for
> awhile ....
>
> I've read through the posts from this morning & early afternoon.  I have
> a few points to make:
>
> 1.  Mr. Abanes -- you just indicated that the tone of your posts was not
> rude or sarcastic (you ascribed that to "someone named Doreen").  You
> might want to take a look at the post titled Abanes Answers Witch
> (#17550).  You were responding to John Walton's post, and indeed, your
> response is arguably rude & sarcastic in tone at different points.  You
> indicated yesterday evening that the forum is for *adults* and you asked
> that we debate with you in a rational manner.  That is all well & good.
> But, you should remember that typing in all CAPS is rude (common
> netiquette rule).  It is considered the equivalent of screaming.
>
> Remarks such as "You do have your head in the sand, don't you?"  and
> "Ok, so now we suddenly know what divination is?" are unnecessarily rude
> or sarcastic.  Remarks such as "pa-leese" also don't add to your case
> for a rational debate.  In other words, you set the tone for messages
> that followed that were perhaps not as polite to you as you might have
> hoped.  But, you cannot expect that we will be polite & courteous to
> you, while allowing you to speak in a sarcastic or rude manner to us.
> In other words, please get the tone of the debates back on track by
> employing a more politic manner yourself (you might want to review our
> Netiquette Guidelines -- in the Files area).
>
> 2.  Please take note that this is a friendly but diverse group of
> adults.  We are Christians, Jews, Muslims, pagans, Wiccans, no religion,
> etc.  We span the globe.  The common denominator is that we are *fans*
> of the HP books.  Someone has been asking you to please state your
> objective in discussing your book with us, and you have thus far
> declined to answer that question.  If your objective is to win converts
> & have all of us suddenly "see the light" and renounce the evil HP
> series, you have set yourself an impossible task.
>
> 3.  If your objective is to discuss your book with us, I would suggest
> that you solicit an interested group of members to continue the
> discussions off-list (or perhaps bring them back on-list).  At this
> point, I don't believe anyone other than Dave has purchased or read a
> copy of your book.  There might be a group of members who would be
> interested in buying your book & debating the contents with you.  At
> this point though, the debate is rather meaningless as none (or very
> few) of us have read it.
>
> You insinuated (quite strongly) in your message last night that *I* was
> not being very intellectual in simply taking Dave's opinion of your book
> at face value.  I would like to assure you that you mis-read my
> message.  You might have missed my point that the brick & mortar
> main-line bookstore chains in Houston do not appear to carry your book
> in-stock.  Ahem. This means I went to the trouble of *asking* the
> question of the bookstores.  I tried to find your book.  I checked the
> HP section, religious section & New in Nonfiction sections at 3
> different stores.  I asked the clerks -- none of the clerks queried had
> any idea what I was talking about.  In each case, when they looked it
> up, they said it was a title that they did not stock but could special
> order for me.
>
> I might still read your book as a point of intellectual curiosity.  I
> would, however, have preferred to pick up a copy at my local B&N or
> Borders & physically perused it first rather than ordering it sight
> unseen from amazon.  Reason: The reviews on amazon.com (both those who
> loved your book & gave it 5 stars & those who did not enjoy it so much),
> now coupled with Dave's post, had made me leery that it's something that
> I will find useful.  Now, I can add your posts to this group as yet
> another reason that I might not be eager to buy it sight unseen.  This
> doesn't mean I won't at some point -- but continued messages in a
> sarcastic high-handed manner are likely to put me off a bit.
>
> 4.  You might also want to take note that the members of this group are
> extraordinarily well-versed in the HP books.  Many of us can cite
> chapters & quotes without even checking the books.  And, we do enjoy a
> good debate.  We won't ban topics of discussion without good reason, but
> if the posts regarding a particular topic become unnecessarily
> contentious and tempers begin to flare, the Moderators may step in.
>
> I won't be around much in the next few days or longer, but I trust that
> the other Moderators are on top of this debate.
>
> Penny
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From rucham78 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 21:03:39 2001
From: rucham78 at yahoo.com (rucham78 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:03:39 -0000
Subject: Hp and the BIBLE
Message-ID: <9c4pnb+j1pr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17589

HI 
This is for both Dave and Mr Abanes,
Do I have permission to quote you in a paper that I am doing about HP?
[I m a graduate student of communication]
rucha




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 21:04:37 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <9c4mpk+9j2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424210437.65779.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17590

> 
> please go to this site 
> http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me that
> i am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this detail.
> 

Well, I dunno, it looks like a strand of hair to me.  I have a very
powerful monitor for DVDs and can usually pick up pretty fine details
but it's possible I'd need a larger pic to look at.

Also he's smiling broadly and faces crinkle up when kids do that and
he is a chubby-cheeked kid, isn't he?



__________________________________________________
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From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Apr 24 21:08:14 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:08:14 -0400
Subject: Magic Law
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08B5@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17591

Yep, still catching up: 

Amber asked:
> 
> 1) What exactly is a Charm? To me, a Charm means that something is
> enchanted to perform a type of magic. However, this isn't always so in
> JKR's world, examples Cheering Charms and Wingardium Leviosa. To me,
> Wingardium Leviosa is a regular spell but it was taught in 
> Charms. Why?
> What distinguishes it?
> 

The way I see it, Charms create an instantaneous effect that either is
finite in nature (i.e., summoning something) or wears off over time (i.e.,
cheering charms). I agree with multiple posters who mentioned that Charms
essentially corresponds to "basic magic 101" or "English" in a Muggle
curriculum.

> 2) What's the difference between Charms and a regular spell? 
> And do the
> Hogwarts students have a class for "regular" spells?For example, where
> did the students learn Lumos? Or was that in Charms? Or are Charms
> regular spells and I'm just confused?
> 

Define "regular" spell. A Charm, a hex, a curse, or a jinx are all kinds of
spells. As to why some are classified "charms" and some "hexes," I don't
think we know enough yet to quantify all the reasons. But like I said, I
believe a charm is an instantaneous spell with a finite effect. A curse (as
in Unforgivable) has a more lasting implication (Imperius lasting for years)
and must be lifted by the caster, or else has permanent effects that cannot
be reversed (Avada Kedavra). Hexes and jinxes probably fall in the middle.

> 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
> magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding ingrediants
> in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
> me). 
> 

This has been answered several ways, but I'll throw in my two cents. I
believe that magical ability is a requisite for successful potions-brewing.
Absolutely it also requires the right ingredients, quantities, and sequence
of addition, but without the all-important magical intention and focused
concentration on the bubbling cauldron, the potion will have a varied range
of effect. And yes, as someone pointed out, I think there are advanced
potions that also involve additional components, such as an incantation (I
don't think Wormtail was reciting in the graveyard for dramatic effect
alone).


> 4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
> Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability 
> to hold a
> happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a force
> of will? 
> 

Again, as has been answered, I agree that a hard spell is one that requires
more concentration, possibly a more focused will, possibly specific
movements of the wand or other components, and in the case of the Patronus,
as someone pointed out, a combinative effect of concentration, willpower,
and holding onto a happy memory clearly. The more complex the effect, or the
more finesse involved, the harder the spell, as well. To use a horrible
analogy, think of the Force (SW). It's much easier for Luke to pick up a
boulder than to place it on a pile and keep it balanced.


> 5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
> without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at 
> Hogwarts and
> so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him out
> the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them focus
> their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without their
> wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?
> 

Wands focus magic per JKR. They may also act as an amplifier, picking up on
the magic being focused through them and making it easier to direct, also
making it a more powerful stream (rather than a diffuse one--a bullet
instead of buckshot). It seems reasonable that once one learns to focus and
concentrate on the really complicated stuff, casting the simple stuff
without a wand can be done. I doubt that any but the really superlative
wizards can do anything majorly powerful without a wand, though (but I bet
Dumbledore can!).

> 6) What in the frick is Arithmancy? Hermione keeps going to that class
> but I'm still clueless on what it is. Magic with math? If so, give me
> details!
> 

This came up a while ago and once again, several people posted a link to a
definition of Arithmancy. But am I the only one who finds that definition
strange? First of all, if that was the defninition JKR meant to use, that
means Hogwarts is home to no less than three distinct tracks of classes that
deal with divination in one form or another: 

--Trelawny's brand, which so far consists of folklore, tea leaves, crystal
balls, numerology, and apparently a true talent as an occasional medium--all
things we classify as fortune-telling;

--Arithmancy, which the link posted defines as divination using numbers;

--Ancient Runes, which aside from being arcane forms of communication were
frequently used for prophesying or telling fortunes.

I have a problem with this--I don't see why these all need to be separate
tracks of classes. Runes I can make a case for, but if all Arithmancy is is
number crunching, why doesn't Trelawney cover it? She teaches astrology and
numerology--couldn't "divination with numbers" be taught at some future
point in Divination class?

Second, unless there are additional (advanced) tracks of classes they
haven't been offered yet, we haven't seen any attention paid to so-called
ceremonial (or ritual) magic (a la Buckland, Crowley, Fraser, et al). We
also haven't seen any emphasis on non-western magic, like sympathetic or
systematic magic (popular in verdun, Native American, and eastern
mysticism). I firmly believe that some of the magic these kids learn has to
be more complicated than waving a wand and chanting a word or phrase.
Potions certainly requires preparation. Transfiguration implies years of
study (for advanced magic like animagi); DADA seems to cover a wide base of
knowledge, from creatures to countercurses to "remedies," as Madam Pomfrey
noted. Somewhere, there must be a method of magic that calls for elaborate
ritual--of the type that Wormtail used to bring back Voldemort, though not
necessarily dark magic. What if this method is what JKR refers to as
Arithmancy?

Where does the arithmetic come in, you ask? I believe the numbers come from
making the measurements, calculating the right time and place for a ritual
to occur, and other quantitative aspects of the magic in question. That
sounds to me like the kind of thing Hermione could definitely sink her
research-oriented teeth into. It calls for precision--from the diagram on
the floor to the placement of the candles to the length of the incantation
to the time of day to the number of participants. Any number of rituals can
be taught by this method, which also allows a track of classes that spans
five years of schooling--and they are presumably not dark arts, or else one
would learn them in DADA.

So, anyone else want to swim upstream on this issue?

Gwendolyn Grace



From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu  Tue Apr 24 21:20:38 2001
From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (Paul W. Hanbury, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:20:38 -0000
Subject: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <9c0l12+ie77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4qn6+qqkd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17592

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits? 

Neither are blast-ended skrewts.  This is an ommission that
really bothered me.  They are definatly magical creatures as
they were covered extensively in Hagrid's class.  




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Tue Apr 24 21:36:35 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:36:35 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c1pel+lp6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4rl4+i5ff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17593

>> Having stated before that I believe Snape to be an essentially 
*good* person, I never meant that he once was a particularly kind or 
friendly person. I think Sirius? description in GoF of how Snape was 
at school (although coloured by personal dislike, of course) is 
probably quite correct. So I think the sarcasm, the cruelty, the 
unpleasantness is not simply an adopted attitude or a mask but it is 
what Snape has always been like. And I don?t think he will change in  
that respect. He won?t have to. I know quite a few people who simply 
*are* sour and unpleasant in the way they treat others, but deep down 
they know very well what is right and what is wrong, and they?re 
utterly reliable. They just don?t "waste their time", as they?d put 
it, on the emotional aspect of it.<<

Did I ever say that I thought Snape to be a happy, everyone-likes-him 
person? He was never, IMO; I agree with you that his demeanor of 
sarcasm and cruelty has probably always been a large factor of his 
personality. But, yes, he did (and does) have a high sense of right 
and wrong. But, at one point in his life, he *lost* that sense of 
morality, and I think it made him even *more* sour and unpleasant. I 
wonder if Severus deep down has a bit of untrust with himself. The 
thing I meant to imply (and perhaps did not convey clearly enough) is 
that his attitude was only *further* magnified by his past, and that 
while he might have had *some* happiness or moments of pleasantness 
before, he's now seemingly given in to his dour demeanor almost 
completely. It's not a "mask" (though I do think there may be some 
element of defense mechanisms in his mannerisms) but an amplification 
of his already rather sour nature. If that made any more sense. :)

>>Apart from that, I believe that the question of partnership and 
even of love in the sense of attraction between man and woman may 
lose its significance in unusual circumstances. And I believe Snape?s 
life has up to now been a row of unusual circumstances. I don?t think 
his main concern is that he can?t go down to Hogsmeade and have a 
drink at the pub and date a nice girl... Lyda, you?re doing injustice 
to men in general there (but maybe that was your intent - your luck 
that Snape threads tend to interest female fans only;-)).<< 

OK, first of all, I was half-joshing with my little comments: 

~~From my previous post: I also think that Severus is... er... rather 
*frustrated* in  some areas. ;) There are few (if any) teachers that 
are near his age at Hogwarts, and he doesn't venture into Hogmeade. 
Fourteen years of celibacy will get to a man, eventually, and seeing 
kids fooling around in rosebushes doesn't help much. :)~~

(See all the smiley, winky faces?) Although, I do admit, I wasn't 
*entirely* joking; I think there is a *bit* of truth to the idea, but 
it's not a main factor. However, I hardly intended to do injustice to 
men there. I certainly don't think that Severus's main concern is sex 
or finding someone to love him. I think mostly the rosebush business 
reminded him of someone he had lost. Does romantic love have no 
significance to him? Perhaps. But then, we don't ever have an 
opportunity to see him around women (not counting his colleagues, 
naturally) or in a postion to discuss that sort of thing, do we? I 
love speculation.  

>>Snape?s outward appearance may reveal something about it. I don?t 
think he?s actually ugly or unattractive, but he does neglect his 
looks. A person suffering from his lack of social contacts would 
certainly put some effort into his outward appearance, wouldn?t he? 
Snape doesn?t seem to care at all. For me it?s a sign that such 
things have lost their significance for him.<<

Good point. Who said he cared about social contacts? He's rather a 
loner, and I suspect he really always has been. Although, I must 
argue one point: people suffering from lack of social acceptance or 
popularity do not always put effort into their looks. Speaking from 
the personal viewpoint of a once-unpopular/unaccepted high school 
freshman. I had few friends, was very much a loner, and eventually, I 
just gave up on caring about how I looked to go to school. I never 
went out. I wasn't involved in after-school stuff. I didn't date. So 
I didn't care about how I looked, even though I really longed for 
social acceptance. I think different personality types react to this 
sort of thing differently though, so... 

Lyda




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 21:37:55 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:37:55 -0000
Subject: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <9c4qn6+qqkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4rnj+l90a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17594

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Paul W. Hanbury, Jr." <hanbury at c...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> > Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits? 
> 
> Neither are blast-ended skrewts.  This is an ommission that
> really bothered me.  They are definatly magical creatures as
> they were covered extensively in Hagrid's class.

But they are a creation of Hagrid's (a cross between manticores and 
fire crabs - GoF; p. 381).


Naama




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Tue Apr 24 21:45:01 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:45:01 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c3lk3+t3qr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4s4t+jns8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17595

Lea wrote:

>>But honestly, he must have *some* reason not to wash his hair, 
mustn?t he?<<

I've always assumed that he *does* wash his hair; he just happens to 
have naturally very oily skin/hair. Overactive sebaceous glands. It 
fits better, since Sirius also describes him as oily and slimy. 
Perhaps it a genetic thing. :)

Lyda 




From moey at sugarquill.com  Tue Apr 24 21:49:33 2001
From: moey at sugarquill.com (First Mate Mo)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:49:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Skrewts & Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <9c4qn6+qqkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424214933.13964.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17596

> Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits? 

I believe that they are spirits.  They can change
appearance and shape so quickly.  Also, they can be
destroyed without -it appears- any mess.
 
>Neither are blast-ended skrewts. This is an
>ommission that really bothered me. They are
>definatly magical creatures as they were covered
>extensively in Hagrid's class. 
 
You forget that Blast-ended Skrewts are an entirely
new breed of creature. Hagrid just bred them in time
for Harry's fourth year. (see the chapter Rita
Skeeter's Scoop in GoF) Therefore this new breed of
creature wouldn't be in Harry's edition of Fantastic
Beasts.  

~Moey

=====
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"If I'd sprouted whiskers, I'd take a break from work."
  -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

__________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Apr 24 21:53:32 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:53:32 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
References: <3AE5D556.C50DDCA1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00eb01c0cd09$1632c680$c33770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17597

Hi all,

A brief follow up to Penny's post...

There has been much of interest in this debate sparked by Richard Abanes.  I
agree with Penny that he has been patronising in some of his responses and
downright rude in others.  Of course, one or two list members have also been
quite blunt in their comments to him, but I'm sure he would anticipate that
in a list of 1200+ Harry Potter fans.

Richard, if you are still here, I concur with Penny's suggestion that you
consider continuing your discussion in an off list forum; unless, that is,
you have a burning question for us.  I assume that your main aim in joining
the list was to respond to the apparent negative remarks made about your
book, and whilst I admit to being intrigued by the views of someone who has
read all the Harry Potter books for reasons other than enjoyment (um, you
didn't enjoy them, did you?), I can see potential for frayed tempers if we
continue the debate on this level.

Everyone: are we likely to find much common ground with someone holding such
extreme views?  I very much doubt it, and, frankly, why should we try?  I
guess it makes us appreciate even more the cultural diversity and friendship
we have here, in our little corner of cyberspace.

So let's get back to "Harry Week" and discussing the books we love!

Be assured, non-pregnant moderators are hovering overhead (not a pretty
sight...)

Magically,

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From shellebelle93 at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 01:25:26 2001
From: shellebelle93 at hotmail.com (michelle earles)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:25:26 
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
Message-ID: <F51Jg1Pu5jh8HDEvbCU00013f87@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17598


>
>One thing maybe you can help me with: He concedes that
>some Christian leaders think the persecution of Harry is
>silly, but he says that any "expert" on the occult would
>recognize what a threat the Harry books are to the
>salvation of mankind.  My suspicion is that he
>is engaging in "Argument by Definition" (i.e. he
>defines an "expert" on the occult as one who sees
>advocacy of it in the books), but can anyone here point to
>any article online by a Christian leader who speaks
>intelligently about the vast gulf between occultism and
>the Hogwarts universe?

Please go to: http://www.cornerstonemag.com/imaginarium/features/muggle.html

I have often found the people at Cornerstone magazine to be helpful, 
thoughtful, and a beacon in the storm of many controversies.  They tend to 
cut through all the emotional and predjudicial junk, and get to the meat of 
an issue.

Oh, and by the way, I have been lurking here for about a month, and enjoying 
myself hugely.

Peace,

shelle
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From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 24 22:02:35 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:02:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
References: <3AE5D556.C50DDCA1@swbell.net> <00eb01c0cd09$1632c680$c33770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <002801c0cd0a$494e2900$9857fea9@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17599

Thank you,Neil, for keeping us on the right track!
Harry is number one at this cyberspace of the globe!
Wanda The Witch of Revere, Ma.,USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions


> Hi all,
>
> A brief follow up to Penny's post...
>
> There has been much of interest in this debate sparked by Richard Abanes.
I
> agree with Penny that he has been patronising in some of his responses and
> downright rude in others.  Of course, one or two list members have also
been
> quite blunt in their comments to him, but I'm sure he would anticipate
that
> in a list of 1200+ Harry Potter fans.
>
> Richard, if you are still here, I concur with Penny's suggestion that you
> consider continuing your discussion in an off list forum; unless, that is,
> you have a burning question for us.  I assume that your main aim in
joining
> the list was to respond to the apparent negative remarks made about your
> book, and whilst I admit to being intrigued by the views of someone who
has
> read all the Harry Potter books for reasons other than enjoyment (um, you
> didn't enjoy them, did you?), I can see potential for frayed tempers if we
> continue the debate on this level.
>
> Everyone: are we likely to find much common ground with someone holding
such
> extreme views?  I very much doubt it, and, frankly, why should we try?  I
> guess it makes us appreciate even more the cultural diversity and
friendship
> we have here, in our little corner of cyberspace.
>
> So let's get back to "Harry Week" and discussing the books we love!
>
> Be assured, non-pregnant moderators are hovering overhead (not a pretty
> sight...)
>
> Magically,
>
> Neil
> ________________________________________
>
> Flying Ford Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator
>
> "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
> a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
> squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
> ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]
>
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 22:36:46 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:36:46 -0000
Subject: AbanesRespondsMore ... FanaticsR-US
In-Reply-To: <9c4hpi+bder@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4v5u+lkjm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17600

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> The overall tone of your messages IS rude, IS snide, and is 
sarcastic  to boot.  You are talking down to people, and taking an 
> intellectual/acadamic highground which is unacceptable 
considering that you do not know the relevant backgrounds of 
those to whom you  address your messages.  

ANSWER:------------Here is a case of "damned if I do, damned if I 
don't." When I was on another HP board and just sort of casually 
posting thoughts and feelings and views on teh books, I was 
viciously attacked as being a narrow-minded, uneducated, 
illiterate, unthinking, ignorant jerk who had NO QUALIFICATIONS 
for making such statements. Now, I try to be a bit more academic 
and I'm condemned for being rude and taking a 
"intellectual/acadamic highground." No way to win. Interestingly, 
when HP fans use sarcasm it is acceptable, but when I use it I 
get accused of rudeness. Again, I cannot win.



> I refer to my previous question, which you have declined to 
>answer -  what do you expect to get out of this discussion? I 
>was sent an E-mail regarding teh discussion.

ANSWER: ----------Sorry, overlooked. I hope to get a better 
perspective of how others see my position, and how others are 
thinking about this issue. I am fascinated by other peerspectives 
and views and enjoy discussions so that I can myself grow in teh 
ability to articulate my beliefs, and at the same time understand 
how others think.


>One more comment.  I was brought up a Christian, have 
Christian  friends - even Born Agains, who are more fanatical in 
their beliefs.   However, they certainly wouldn't try and force their 
opinions on others in such a way as you do.  
ANSWER------- Please tell me how explaining my position, 
offering documentation to support it, and publishing a book on it 
for others to read (and then posting info in the Internet) is 
"FORCING" my views on people. I don't grab each person and 
take their money out of the wallet and make them buy the book. 
Interestingly, one can seem to say ANYTHING in this country as 
along as it fits with society popular view, but say something 
contrary and one gets accused of FORCING beliefs on people. 
Do you feel homosexuals "FORCE" their beliefs on you through 
TV shows and books advocating it as an alternative lifestyle??? If 
not, why not? I see a double-standard here.



>They certainly wouldn't talk down to anyone who did not share 
their beliefs.  You sound extremely angry  and intolerant to me - 
surely this is not a Christian attitude?

     Perhaps because what I'm saying is not what you want to 
hear. And I say that with no anger, just as an observation. Also, it 
seems abit odd that I would be accused of intolerance when I 
have nowhere said anyone -- including Rowling -- should n ot be 
allowed to openly express themselves and views. I just happen 
to disagree with those expressions and view. But you see, today, 
"intolerance" has been misdefined to mean not agreeing with 
what is popular. By the way I won a secular award for tolerance 
in America for my work on racism in 1997. Obviously, I am 
indeed tolerant, but perhaps it is all of you who are showing 
more levels of intolerance.

Cordially,

Richard Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 22:39:30 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:39:30 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4j8b+o84e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c4vb2+be97@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17601

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
>  I am bewildered by the statement that Harry never suffers any 
> negative consequences from lying. 
ANSWER------- I did not say NEVER and I did not explicitly limit it 
to lying. I said that he RARELY suffers as a result of his 
mis-deeds (many varieties including lying). Please, we must 
read closely to have an accurate dialogue.

Cordially,

Richard Abanes
P.S> Pippin is a GREAT name.




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 22:48:34 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:48:34 -0000
Subject: HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
In-Reply-To: <00eb01c0cd09$1632c680$c33770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9c4vs2+9jq8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17602

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
>There has been much of interest in this debate sparked by Richard 
Abanes.  I
> agree 
> Everyone: are we likely to find much common ground with someone 
holding such
> extreme views?  I very much doubt it, and, frankly, why should we 
try?  I
> guess it makes us appreciate even more the cultural diversity and 
friendship
> we have here, in our little corner of cyberspace.
> 
In my experience, extremists like Abanes pretend to seek debate with 
those who disagree with them just to give themselves a forum for 
spouting their offense views.  There is a big difference between 
honest debate between people who are trying to understand each others 
positions, and provocation by fanatics.

We should not give this guy a forum for his views.  Right-wing 
extremists already have way too many places to spout their bigotry.  
I say ignore him, do NOT respond to his posts, or better yet, toss 
him off the list.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 22:49:36 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <9c4qn6+qqkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424224936.82466.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17603

-- "Paul W. Hanbury, Jr." <hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu>
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston"
> <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> > Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits?

> Neither are blast-ended skrewts.  This is an
> ommission that
> really bothered me.  They are definatly magical
> creatures as
> they were covered extensively in Hagrid's class.  

That would be because Hagrid bred blast-ended skrewts
himself.  They're not a recognized magical creature,
because he just "invented" them.  

As for boggarts, I'd cast a vote for Spirit if they're
not Creatures.  The requirement for Being, IIRC, was
that they could comprehend human speech and
communicate.  Boggarts just go around scaring people. 
Sounds like the boogeyman, actually.


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 22:53:15 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:53:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <f7.972d887.28175ddb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17604

Doreen wrote:
<< So, what else makes you 
 think that those who were loyal, such as the couple who are still in 
 Azkaban, were Hufflepuffs?  >>

Well, I think that the few loyal ones were NOT slytherin, because Slytherin 
doesn't go with the weaker guy, IMO. They go with the strongest and are loyal 
to them until their powers are toned down or they 'go out of style'. And 
Hufflepuff seems like the most logical other house, because who else would be 
so convinced that what they were doing was right, or would stay with them for 
that long? Also, does anyone know if it says anywhere in the books that Peter 
was in Gryffindor? I think that it's just an assumption that most people 
make. Because he doesn't seem the type for any of the houses except for 
Hufflepuff. And from what we've heard about James, he seems the type to 
befriend someone from another house, especially weak, defenseless Huffs. And 
Wormtail *was* one of the semi-loyal DE.....
Trying to defend her little idea, even though everything says that it's wrong~
Wicky

If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 22:54:12 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:54:12 -0000
Subject: Abanes Answers Witch
In-Reply-To: <F73V8VeAIAoZzfrFrUP00006286@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c506k+3jo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17605

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at h...> wrote


>While Harry *does* lie, he doesn't get away with it nearly 
> all the time, and, when pressed about it, tells the truth. He gets 
in  trouble for telling the truth, which is a very real concept. 

ANSWER ------- In my book, HARRY POTTER AND THE BIBLE, I 
actually catalogue teh places he lies and does other unethical 
things and show when he suffers negatively and when he not 
only gets away with things, but is rewarded. Try it yourself, you 
will be surprised.


> I have a serious issue with the fact that people tell little children 
"You  won't get in trouble if you tell the truth." This simply isn't 
true- if you  broke Mom's favorite vase to be spiteful, you're going 
to get into trouble  if you tell her about it right off or if you lie and 
say the cat knocked it  off the shelf and admit it later- the 
difference is only in your own  integrity and perhaps in the 
punishment.

ANSWER -----------The ONLY difference is your integrity? Hmmm, 
seems like this should be the important thing. No one -- not me 
at least -- is saying that truth telling might not bring some 
difficulties, but that doesn't mean don't tell the truth.


 
> The admirable thing about Harry is, he accepts the 
consequences of his  words. Whether that's expected by the 
bible or not, it *is* an admirable  trait.

ANSWER ---As I said, add up the times he has to accept any 
consequences. You will be surprised. Also, most of the time, 
when he DOES put up with consequences, they are very minor.



> I also don't think it's fair to call the Inquisition a political 
> institution, unless you'd like to call the entire medieval church 
the same.  If the burnings had nothing to do with real religious 
beliefs, why on EARTH did they take place? The basis of 
Christian belief is the Bible, and the  Bible says "Thou Shalt Not 
Kill." Reconcile those, please.

ANSWER ---------- Teh inquisition was ABSOLUTELY political 
used to silence anyone who would threaten teh political (and 
wealthy) Roman Catholic institution. Hence, the Reformation 
was needed to call Christians OUT of the corrupted institution of 
Catholicism and back to the simple gospel of the Bible. You see 
NOTHING like the doctrines or hierarchical structures of 
Catholicism in the Bible. The worst thing that VEER happened to 
Christianity was the politicalizing of it due to the conversion of 
Constantine.


> Neither are you, buster. Astronomers would also count as 
star-gazers. (If not, don't tell my friend the Astronomy major- 
that's her email!) Hermione's  academic sucess has little or no 
bearing on the divination issue, which is  what I thought we were 
talking about.
ANSWER-------- I like the "buster" comment. Anyway, an 
astronomer's e-mail name has little to do with the histoprical 
use of the word star-gazer.


 
> This is the bit that got me mad, guy. Here's WitchVox's mission 
statement, taken directly from their webpage: "Mission 
Statement: The Witches' Voice is a proactive educational network 
> dedicated to correcting misinformation about Witches and 
Witchcraft.  Witchcraft - Wicca IS a legally recognized religion in 
the United States and  it is our mission to protect that right 
through education and awareness. It is our belief that Witches 
are givers and healers! By keeping abreast of  the latest news 
and updated information, as well as having ready access to 
 critical resource tools, we, as Witches and Pagans, can not only 
empower  ourselves, but develop programs to educate our local 
towns and cities on who we are and what we do."
 
ANSWER ------------Yes, sounds exactly like the mission 
stataement from many Christian sites, except its geared twoard 
WICCA rather than Christianity or some other religion. Again, I 
say, time for the altar call.

Cordially,

Richard Abnaes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 23:05:10 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:05:10 -0000
Subject: Richard Abanes - former member of the Way International
In-Reply-To: <9c4og5+78l6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c50r6+nb5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17606

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorband at u... wrote:

>  it seems that Richard Abanes was 
> once gullible enough to belong to the Way International Cult.  
ANSWER: -----------Yes, I was 19 and gullible, but then again, 
who isn't gullible at such an age. Would you mock all 19 year 
olds for foolish decisions?


>The worst kind of  Born-Again - like the worst kind of reformed 
smoker, y'know?   His particular brand of crusading is irritating, 
but harmless.  Let that little light of yours shine, Mr. Abanes, 
hallelujah!  I just don't  want it to shine in my eyes.   . . .  
Apparently, he can't change his essence - whether as a member 
of the  Way International Cult, a born-again churchian, or just an 
> holier-than-thou nutcase. . . .  What's more, we won't like for 
you to be here.   After a while (is this afternoon too soon?), we 
will get bored with you because, well, just because you are who 
you are.  The  frustration caused by your unpleasant/ill-advised 
rantings will prompt the list-moms to revoke your membership. 

   ANSWER -------Hmmm. Sooooo nasty. Will anyone chastise 
Brian publicly??? Doubtful.

R. Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 23:09:33 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:09:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c4pbh+jn13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c513d+ggci@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at a...> wrote:
>


> I would also like to point out the difference between occult and 
> pagan since you seem to use these two words 
intercahangably. The definitiona are from Webster's New World 
Dictionary.

        I appreciate your question. You know I am much more used 
to talking personally to people than writing over the internet and 
my attempts at keeping things "LIGHT" rather than heavy and my 
sense of humor just DON'T come through and come off as 
mean-spirited. Sorry, my fault. I'll try to be more bland in my 
answers.
        Now to your question. Neo-paganism is a contemporary 
form of ancient paganism which is usually some earth-based 
spirituality that denies a personal God (ala Christianity, Judaism, 
Islam) in favor of a more pantheistic concept of deity. Occultism 
is a set of practices often used by neo-pagans to access 
knowledge that would otherwise be unknowable, hence the 
meaning of occult (hidden secret).

Cordially,

R. Abanes




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Apr 24 23:11:40 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:11:40 -0000
Subject: HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
In-Reply-To: <9c4vs2+9jq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c517c+803o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17608


> 
> We should not give this guy a forum for his views.  Right-wing 
> extremists already have way too many places to spout their bigotry.  
> I say ignore him, do NOT respond to his posts, or better yet, toss 
> him off the list.
> 
> 
>       ^
>      / \
>     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
>    /     \
> __/       \__


Hey all -

Whoa, did I miss one hell of a discussion today!  I just want to 
express gratitude to everyone for defending and respecting the diverse 
religions and cultures represented at this site. 

 While I do not think Abanes is a bad person who is out to get us all 
to convert, I am extremely uncomfortable with his constant comparisons 
of Harry to the Bible.  Yes, Christmas and godparents have a Christian 
base, but I couldn't care less.  I mentioned before that I am Jewish, 
and believe me, I've heard my share of nasty comments directed at my 
religion (basketball player Ward being the most recent), but that 
doesn't stop me from being 61% obsessed with HP and kind of wishing I 
had a legal guardian like Sirius Black.  It certainly doesn't stop me 
from wishing with all of my might that I could live in his world.

Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, I agree with you about avoiding getting into 
ugly exchanges with someone whose motives are unclear on this site.  
Perhaps if I actually met Abanes and sat down with him to tell him 
about how many millions of kids love reading again because of HP, or 
how many kids are giving writing a shot because of HP, or even talk to 
him about my days volunteering at the Simon Wiesenthal Center here in 
New York, I could form a more accurate opinion of him and his book, 
but until then, I'll just read these posts and respond to the ones 
that are really about Harry Potter and why we all love him so much.

--jenny from ravenclaw*****************************




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 24 23:37:46 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:37:46 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F66qeq5Z3JjQWr00001fec@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17609

wicky and  others wrote:
>Doreen wrote:
><< So, what else makes you
>  think that those who were loyal, such as the couple who are still in
>  Azkaban, were Hufflepuffs?  >>
>
>Well, I think that the few loyal ones were NOT slytherin, because Slytherin
>doesn't go with the weaker guy, IMO. They go with the strongest and are 
>loyal
>to them until their powers are toned down or they 'go out of style'. And
>Hufflepuff seems like the most logical other house, because who else would 
>be
>so convinced that what they were doing was right, or would stay with them 
>for
>that long? Also, does anyone know if it says anywhere in the books that 
>Peter
>was in Gryffindor? I think that it's just an assumption that most people
>make. Because he doesn't seem the type for any of the houses except for
>Hufflepuff. And from what we've heard about James, he seems the type to
>befriend someone from another house, especially weak, defenseless Huffs. 
>And
>Wormtail *was* one of the semi-loyal DE.....
>Trying to defend her little idea, even though everything says that it's 
>wrong~

I'd just like to point out that the only unequivocally ethical trait 
ascribed to any house by the sorting hat is "just" and that house is 
Hufflepuff.  The only Hufflepuff we know much about is Cedric Diggory.
So let's hear it for Hufflepuffs!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 24 23:45:49 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skrewts
In-Reply-To: <9c4qn6+qqkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010424234549.17590.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17610


--- "Paul W. Hanbury, Jr." <hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu>
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston"
> <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> > Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits?
> 
> 
> Neither are blast-ended skrewts.  This is an
> ommission that
> really bothered me.  They are definatly magical
> creatures as
> they were covered extensively in Hagrid's class.  
> 
> 
I got the impression that the Skrews were somthing
Hagrid bred himself. He isn't sure what they eat,
whether they hibernate, what they're for, even which
are the males and females... They're either a product
of Hagrid's tinkering or someone else's (aren't they a
cross between a fire crab and a manticore)? Anyway,
they seem like something new in GoF, so Newt Scamander
must never have gotten a chance to include them in his
book. Perhaps they'll make the revised edition.

Anne


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From john at walton.to  Tue Apr 24 23:45:48 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:45:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c513d+ggci@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B70BCEBC.2A1%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17611

on 4/25/01 12:09 AM, rabanesss at yahoo.com at rabanesss at yahoo.com wrote:

> Now to your question. Neo-paganism is a contemporary form of ancient paganism
> which is usually some earth-based spirituality that denies a personal God (ala
> Christianity, Judaism, Islam) in favor of a more pantheistic concept of deity.

Richard, please, say it. "Religion". "Ruh-LIDJ-unn". It's not a
"spirituality", it's a religion with many different adherents. Please don't
be insulting about it. I'd compare what you say above with describing
Christianity as a "Messianic Cult". Please, have consideration for others'
*religions*.

Moreover, your definition of neoPaganism (yes, it's a proper noun, so please
do use a capital letter, there's a good chap) lacks in correctness, and
while I'm reluctant to make generalisations about "all neoPagans believe X
or Y", here's something from the UK's Pagan Federation:

The Three Principles of the Pagan Federation:
1) Love for and Kinship with Nature. Reverence for the life force and its
ever-renewing cycles of life and death.
2) A Positive Morality, in which the individual is responsible for the
discovery and development of their true nature in harmony with the outer
world and community. This is often expressed as "Do what you will, as long
as it harms none."
3) Recognition of the Divine, which transcends gender, acknowledging both
the female and male aspect of Deity.

> Occultism is a set of practices often used by neo-pagans to access knowledge
> that would otherwise be unknowable, hence the meaning of occult (hidden
> secret).

Not necessarily by neoPagans. Some nonPagans use the occult as well. I'm
thinking Satanists in particular, which have no links to the vast majority
of Paganism.

As this now seems to be almost off-topic, I'm going to be ending my
discussion with you here, Richard. During your (thankfully) brief time in
our community, you've managed to irritate, offend and insult nearly
everyone, from Christians to Pagans to nonbelievers. Congratulations if that
was your aim. However, *my* aim is to discuss a set of fictional, *magical*
books which I enjoy with other rational people. I will be recommending to
the rest of the Moderator Team that, unless you begin to discuss the
positive aspects of the Harry Potter series, you and your negative karma be
removed from our wonderful, thoughtful community.

Lock up your children now -- here comes the Real World. An' it's a-gonna
getcha.

--John

____________________________________________

*"Quidditch Through The Ages" by Kennilworthy Whisp: 14 Sickles 3 Knuts
*New Firebolt Broom: just over 100 Galleons
*Watching Draco Malfoy being bounced up and down
after being turned into a ferret: Priceless

The best things in life are free. For everything else, there's Harry Potter.

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 23 23:22:56 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:22:56 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Let's Get Back to Harry!
Message-ID: <LAW2-F1242U8QVjp3b600000305@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17612

Jenny wrote:
>
>I've been reading through the postings this week, and noticed that
>people aren't discussing Harry as much as I'd like.
Hear, hear!
>People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and talents, but
>I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.  What are they?  What
>are the things about Harry that could really end up hurting him?

I think keeping his feelings locked up *could* be considered a weakness.  He 
is certainly impulsive, and not all of his impulses have been good - the 
second trip to Hogwarts, the flying car...He could be reckless under 
emotional pressure...but, really, I think he is a very admirable character.  
He never initiates a a fight or a quarrel, though he will react if someone 
else does.  But he puts up with a lot stoically as well - the Dursleys, 
Snape, Malfoy only really get to him if they mention his parents.  The only 
thing in his dealings with other people that I could criticise is failing to 
respond to Neville's loneliness just before the second Hogsmeade trip.
>
>I also have speculations about some of the magic Harry will be using
>in his coming years at Hogwarts.  I'm sure (once again) that this has
>been discussed before, but I believe he'll learn how to be an animagus
>like his father did.

I think JKR said he wouldn't - I hope I'm wrong about that - an animagus POV 
would be fun!

What else might he be learning (and not from
>classes).  So far, much of his magical "aids" were given to him as
>gifts - the invisibility cloak the Marauders' Map, etc.  Will Harry
>learn how to do something quite complicated on his own?

I think he will - and there's the Patronus.  That was quite an achievement.
>
>I've also heard rumors that Harry might get expelled from Hogwarts
>(and obviously earn his way back in).  Can anyone see that actually
>happening?  What would that be like?

I can't see it.  Dumbledore allows quite a bit of latitude - the only 
expulsion we know of - Hagrid's - was before D's time.  If he were 
temporarily expelled, he'd be separated from Ron and Hermione, and he'd have 
to stay at the Dursleys, which would be dull for us.  I think Harry's done a 
lot of growing up in GoF, and isn't likely to be expelled for doing 
something stupid.  I think there's still plenty of potential in Hogwarts as 
a setting.  Perhaps he may get a bit more freedom in the holidays, and allow 
us to see a bit more of the wizarding world with him.
>
>Okay - I can't think of anything else just yet.  Any thoughts?

I think the problem with Harry as a topic is to do with the POV.  His 
thoughts and feelings are known, so there is less room for elaborate 
theories and stimulating differences of opinion!  But I'd love it if anyone 
can come up with either! :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 00:02:12 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:02:12 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP & the Bible; Abanes Discussions
Message-ID: <LAW2-F40QTDVd94wyrv00002127@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17613

Jenny and Joywitch wrote:

> >
> > We should not give this guy a forum for his views.  Right-wing
> > extremists already have way too many places to spout their bigotry.
> > I say ignore him, do NOT respond to his posts, or better yet, toss
> > him off the list.
> >
> >
> >       ^
> >      / \
> >     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
> >    /     \
> > __/       \__
>
>
>Hey all -
>
>Whoa, did I miss one hell of a discussion today!  I just want to
>express gratitude to everyone for defending and respecting the diverse
>religions and cultures represented at this site.
<snip sane comments>
Hear, hear, yes please and me too.  I support everyone who took issue, but 
we don't need this.  I want to get back to talking about books I love with 
my friends.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 00:07:11 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:07:11 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <B70BCEBC.2A1%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9c54ff+7f3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17614

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> on



> Richard, please, say it. "Religion". "Ruh-LIDJ-unn". It's not a
> "spirituality", it's a religion with many different adherents. 
Please don't  be insulting about it. I'd compare what you say 
above with describing  Christianity as a "Messianic Cult". Please, 
have consideration for others' *religions*.

ANSWER: Uhhh, fine. suuurre -  "Ruh-LIDJ-unn". Better? It's a a  
"Ruh-LIDJ-unn". There. I have no problem calling it a  
"Ruh-LIDJ-unn". I have found some neo-pagans don't like 
negative connotations wrapped up in the word  "Ruh-LIDJ-unn" 
due to its connection with established mainstream  
"Ruh-LIDJ-unn". 



> Moreover, your definition of neoPaganism (yes, it's a proper 
noun, so please do use a capital letter, there's a good chap) 
lacks in correctness, and while I'm reluctant to make 
generalisations about "all neoPagans believe X  or Y", here's 
something from the UK's Pagan Federation:

ANSWER: Again, fine. You're straining at gnats here in an effort 
to somehow make me appear unfamiliar with neo-paganism. 
The fact is that I gace a very brief generalized description of 
paganism. For several paragraphs of in-depth discussion on it 
and quotations from the Pagan Federation and other sources, 
read my book.



> Not necessarily by neoPagans. Some nonPagans use the 
occult as well. I'm thinking Satanists in particular, which have no 
links to the vast majority of Paganism.

      We are nit-picky, huh? I never said non-pagans didn't use it. 
And you're mixing categories with Satanists, who I never said are 
pagans. For the record, they are not pagans.
        And it will not surprise me to be kicked off. Tolerance and 
NO CENSORSHIP, we all cry until it applies to those with whom 
we disagree. Enjoy the bubble of intellectual protectionism in 
which you reside. Perhaps the real world will one day come at 
you . . . and getcha!

Cordially

RA




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Apr 24 23:37:17 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:37:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Bible
References: <F51Jg1Pu5jh8HDEvbCU00013f87@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c0cd1e$1ed40be0$bd98e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17615

> Please go to:
http://www.cornerstonemag.com/imaginarium/features/muggle.html

What a super article! Michelle, thanks so much for recommending it. This is
the kind of thoughtful scholarship that I'd like to see more of from
Christian sources.

I have no problems at all with people raising concerns about HP, provided
that those concerns are legitimately backed up and presented in such a way
as to stimulate thought and debate about moral and spiritual issues.  What I
*can't* stand is all the lies, half-truths, misrepresentations,
out-of-context quotes, and ad hominem arguments that are far too often
substituted instead.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Apr 25 00:24:29 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:24:29 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible:  The Debate So Far
References: <9c4g8d+itta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f701c0cd1e$22d262a0$bd98e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17616

Richard Abanes wrote (among other things):

>  Very clever, but also painfully stupid.
>  How ignorant and judgmental.

Richard, I've been following this discussion since the beginning without
having time or opportunity to comment, but I was interested to see what you
might have to say.  I am, after all, a member of your avowed "target
audience" for your book -- a Christian (not a nominal religionist, but a
child of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ) who enjoys fantasy
literature in general and Harry Potter in particular.

I was willing to consider that perhaps there were some valid points to be
made against the HP books which I had not previously thought of, and thought
that perhaps I might even pick up your book and read it (I'm sure it's
available at my local Christian bookstore, or soon will be) to be sure that
I was not dismissing anti-HP arguments out of hand.  After all, just because
virtually every article I have read that was anti-HP misrepresented the
contents of the books and/or failed to demonstrate any understanding of the
difference between fantasy-magic and Satanism, didn't mean that your book
was guilty of such carelessness as well.

However, I have been deeply disappointed in your attitude toward those who
disagreed with you.  Even if in your estimation your remarks were being
misrepresented, and even if you felt that some of the remarks made were
personal attacks, does not justify your responding in kind or even more
harshly than your critics.  In 1 Peter 3:15 believers are exhorted to
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the
reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your
good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."  But where is the
"gentleness and respect" in your replies?  And what cause have you given
anyone to be ashamed of speaking ill of you?

You say that you are not well versed in communicating on the Internet and
that your sense of humour doesn't come across well, but what is humorous
about calling someone "painfully stupid" and "ignorant"?  Adding a thousand
smileys to that sentence will not make it anything less than an insult and a
personal attack.  I am reminded of Christ's words to his disciples in
Matthew 5:22 that "anyone who says [to his brother], `You fool!' will be in
danger of the fire of hell."  Admittedly, the majority of those here are not
your brethren in the faith.  But if it is wrong to say such things to a
fellow believer, is it not all the more wrong to say them to those who do
not know Christ as Lord and Saviour but whom you would wish to persuade that
He is worthy of their trust?  Is it not a very serious thing to bring
reproach to the name of Christ and the reputation of your fellow believers
in the course of claiming to serve and represent God's truth?

I would have said these things to you privately, but your remarks have been
made in public to a large general audience, and therefore I feel that a
public affirmation that your speech and behaviour are *not* in accordance
with the teaching of God's Word is necessary.  Please, consider how rude and
condescending many of your remarks have sounded, and how much your messages
have made it appear (regardless of your actual intent) that you are here to
defend yourself and your reputation, rather than to represent the truth
without thought of yourself.  1 Peter 2:23 says of the Lord Jesus Christ,
"When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he
suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who
judges justly."  Surely His example is the pattern for all of us to follow,
regardless of how others may inadvertently or deliberately insult us?

Yours sincerely,
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 00:41:06 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:41:06 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible:  The Debate So Far
In-Reply-To: <00f701c0cd1e$22d262a0$bd98e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9c56f2+r6sb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17617

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner"
<bohners at p...> 
> I was not dismissing anti-HP arguments out of hand.  After all,
just 
because
> virtually every article I have read that was anti-HP misrepresented 
the
> contents of the books and/or failed to demonstrate any
understanding 
of the
> difference between fantasy-magic and Satanism, didn't mean that
your 
book
> was guilty of such carelessness as well.
> 
> However, I have been deeply disappointed in your attitude toward 
those who
> disagreed with you.  Even if in your estimation your remarks were 
being
> misrepresented, and even if you felt that some of the remarks made 
were
> personal attacks, does not justify your responding in kind or even 
more
> harshly than your critics.  In 1 Peter 3:15 believers are exhorted 
to
> "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to 
give the
> reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and 
respect,
> keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously 
against your
> good behaviour in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."  But 
where is the
> "gentleness and respect" in your replies?  And what cause have you 
given
> anyone to be ashamed of speaking ill of you?
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj


I have yet to find someone to argue without rancor or with specific 
points to support the thesis that HP is anti-Christian.  I am the 
product of 16 years of Catholic education, mostly by Jesuits-- who are 
not at all simplistic in their faith.  I would enjoy a genuine 
discussion that is not a camouflage for a preaching, non-thinking 
attack, but an attempt to explore the issue dispassionately.

Haggridd

Haggridd




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 00:50:02 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:50:02 -0000
Subject: Harry's weaknesses, boggarts & squibs
Message-ID: <9c56vq+r5l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17618

Back on topic ;) 

I think one of Harry's weaknesses is he's not quite sure of himself 
or his abilities at times. Although this may have to with age and 
lack of wizarding exposure before age 11. Granted I know I wasn't 
always confident in my teen years. It will be interesting to see if 
he overcomes this lack of confidence or it starts to become a  
problem in the next 3 books. 


Now on to boggorts. I think maybe boggorts are a combination of a 
spirt and a being. They are shapeshifters and seem to have soild 
form, whereas I've always thought of spirts being more translucent. 
Also maybe they are a magical type of being similar to a house elf 
and not a magical beast. This could explain why they aren't in FB. 


Squibs:

I thought some squibs could have a miniscule amount of magic but not 
enough to be a witch or wizard. Kind of like how Professor Trelawney 
makes predictions, 99.9% of the time it's total bunk but 0.1% of the 
time she gets one right. 

Cheers,
       Kristin

p.s. sorry about the double post earlier today::curses AOL::




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Apr 25 01:22:09 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:22:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's weaknesses, boggarts & squibs
References: <9c56vq+r5l8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE626C1.7BC877E4@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17619



Kristin wrote:

> Real-To:  "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>
>
> Back on topic ;)
>
> I think one of Harry's weaknesses is he's not quite sure of himself
> or his abilities at times. Although this may have to with age and
> lack of wizarding exposure before age 11. Granted I know I wasn't
> always confident in my teen years. It will be interesting to see if
> he overcomes this lack of confidence or it starts to become a
> problem in the next 3 books.

This is one of the areas where the Dursley's abusive behaviour to Harry might be manifesting itself. His lack of self confidence is something similar to that which has been reported in studies of battered and emotionally abused children (and
I am of the mind that he's suffered both, although the latter moreso than the former (i.e. he was emotionally abused all day every day; from the books, it seems he was physically abused somewhat less frequently)) - it affects their sense of
self worth, because they've never been told that they're wonderful, great, brilliant, talented, etc. I have read anecdotal evidence that one or two years of love and affection in infancy & toddlerhood, which Harry had (well, for 15 months at
least) can provide mitigation of the affects of the abuse.
Of course, the flip side is Dudley.

> Now on to boggorts. I think maybe boggorts are a combination of a
> spirt and a being. They are shapeshifters and seem to have soild
> form, whereas I've always thought of spirts being more translucent.
> Also maybe they are a magical type of being similar to a house elf
> and not a magical beast. This could explain why they aren't in FB.

In the HP books, the spirits aren't always transparent - I mean, the ghosts are translucent, but Peeves looks solid, so it's not an absolute law of canon.






From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 01:31:14 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Becca)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:31:14 -0000
Subject: Another rant :-), was Harry Potter and the Bible
Message-ID: <9c59d2+mbh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17620

To further clarify these proper meanings, I looked them up.

witch (wch) 
n. 

A woman popularly believed to have supernatural powers and practice 
sorcery, and often believed to be aided by spirits. 
A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan. 
A hag. 
Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching. 
One particularly skilled or competent at one's craft: "A witch of a 
writer, [she] is capable of developing an intensity that verges on 
ferocity" (Peter S. Prescott). 

In Harry Potter, this has the meaning of a person with magical 
abililties, and is in a very positive connotation.

pa?gan (pgn) 
n. 

One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew; a heathen.
A wiccan, or modern witch
One who has no religion. 
A non-Christian. 
A hedonist. 

he?don?ism (hdn-zm) 
n. 

Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of 
the senses. 
Philosophy. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant 
or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good. 
Psychology. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the 
desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain. 

oc?cult (-klt, klt) 
adj. 

Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, 
or phenomena. 
Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable. 
Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at 
mysterious. 
Hidden from view; concealed. 

In the above, from http://www.dictionary.com, it says nothing about 
evil.  In fact, it states that paganism is about good and only good. 
As is the Good Side of Harry Potter witchcraft.  Well, the Evil Side 
*is* evil, but in this series, the Good triumps over Evil...not 
setting an influence for children to become bad people. There is no 
link to teenage violence from Paganism, and any studies that show 
that it does must either be fabricated or very biased.  I see no 
proof, and Paganism has moral ideals as well.  Not that it would 
matter, in the United States there is freedom of religion, so if some 
people wanted to worship hate and death then they bloody well could.  
But that is a completely different topic.

Harry Potter is a magic and witchcraft centric book.  But, it has a 
very classical fussion of Good v. Evil.  Some people on this list 
seem to be mistaken.

Lord Voldemort is the evil antagonist. He shows no mercy for anyone 
and wants nothing but absolute power and the destruction of non-
magical beings.  He is also a hypocrit, since he is in fact a half-
born wizard.  Voldemort seems to show no vision or understanding of 
love or good, and has no pity.  There is one psychological theory 
that I cannot place at the moment, where it states that when a child 
grows up with a lack of a certain emotion, he cannot see that in 
other people.  Voldemort grew up blocking out pity and mercy and 
love, so he is ultimatly evil.

Harry Potter was the quasi-downfall of Voldemort.  His mother died 
for him, and preforming ancient magic, placed a sheild on him.  This 
sheild was made of her love for him, and that sheild reflected a 
death curse onto Voldemort.  Love saved Harry, and there could be no 
foul play in that. There is most likely another sheild protecting 
Harry, and it is my theory that the other peice of protection is the 
twinkle in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GoF.  But that is steering 
off topic.  ^_~.  

Harry is the protagonist, and he is loved by all characters except 
for the Slytherins, who usually end up as dark wizards and witches.  
Although Harry can be cheeky and breaks rules, he does this all for 
good causes in his opinion, since he is a young boy.  You can't 
expect a boy who's in his teen and pre-teen years to have perfect 
judgement; they're developing a sense of right and wrong.  Yet, Harry 
has thus far made most of the right decisions.  

Nobody can say that waiting for the other champion's "wheezy" was a 
bad thing to do...in fact, saving Gabrielle was a very heroic and 
righteous thing to do. As for Peter, do you really expect it to be in 
better morals to say, "Oh fuck it, kill him.  He betrayed my parents 
so he's dead.  Muwaha."? Didn't think so.  The reason that JKR 
portrayed negative consequences to this action is simply because she 
wanted to say that evil people do evil things, but that good people 
shouldn't stoop to their level for petty vengance.  I'm sure that's 
in the Bible.  Harry isn't immoral, and neither is his book series.

<snip>

The books also contain positive presentations of occult
> techniques and practices (astrology, numerology, channeling,
> etc). That cannot be denied.

<unsnip>

as?trol?o?gy (-strl-j) 
n. Abbr. astrol. 

The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the 
belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly 
occurrences and human affairs

chan?nel?ing (chn-lng) 
n. 
Purported communication by a disembodied entity through a living 
person, as by voice during a trance.

nu?mer?ol?o?gy (nm-rl-j, ny-) 
n. 

The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed 
influence on human life.


Astrology, numerology, and channeling are not negative.  There is 
nothing wrong with looking at stars, and studying numbers.  
Channeling has been proven to be acting, and I have a documented 
study that I forgot the name of, again, that was presented in my 
Science class in a video, "Psuedo-Science".  It was that one man, a 
retired magician, offered $1,000,000 to anyone who could provide 
solid proof that they could do any supernatural act.  It has been 25 
years, and nobody has been able to fly, predict the future, or cure 
diseases by the touch of a finger.  I believe in miracles, but these 
acts are just imagination.  People like believing that there are cool 
things to do...like talk to dead people in their workplace.  It's 
fun, and it brings out a very valuable tool. Imagination.  
Imagination is everywhere...including politics, but that is yet 
another topic. ;-) Magic's a thrill ride, and it's not evil.

If evil is what some people are suggesting exists in the books of 
Harry Potter, then I suggest they take a look at their Bible.  The 
Bible denounces evil as well, as does Harry Potter.  There is nothing 
wrong with the Harry Potter books or the Bible, and frankly, the 
people that see something wrong with these books are conspiring to 
create a disturbance.  If you see something wrong with the Harry 
Potter books, then there is something wrong with Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, 
Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, and most Science Fiction or Fantasy 
writers.  In fact, if there is a problem with the morality of Harry 
Potter, then there is a problem with the morality of every single 
book that has a good against evil plot.  Want to debate with the 
readers of the world?  You'll lose miserably.

Wandering off to finish Calc homework after a really long and mostly 
off-topic post...

*Becca*
 




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 01:33:58 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:33:58 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c4s4t+jns8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c59i6+ft25@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17621

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> Lea wrote:
> 
> >>But honestly, he must have *some* reason not to wash his hair, 
> mustn?t he?<<
> 
> I've always assumed that he *does* wash his hair; he just happens 
to 
> have naturally very oily skin/hair. Overactive sebaceous glands. It 
> fits better, since Sirius also describes him as oily and slimy. 
> Perhaps it a genetic thing. :)
> 
> 

I'm sure many have said this before, but I can't resist saying it 
again, that it's especially ironic that the potions master should 
have this problem. Shouldn't he be able to make the perfect shampoo 
to get rid of excess oil? That is, should he care. I don't think he 
cares, for whatever reason. 

Charmian




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Apr 25 01:37:11 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:37:11 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c59i6+ft25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c59o7+6nmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17622

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> I'm sure many have said this before, but I can't resist saying it 
> again, that it's especially ironic that the potions master should 
> have this problem. Shouldn't he be able to make the perfect shampoo 
> to get rid of excess oil? That is, should he care. I don't think he 
> cares, for whatever reason. 

LOL, true, he should be able to create the perfect shampoo. But 
you're right; he doesn't care enough to take the time to do such a 
thing.

Lyda




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 01:38:26 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:38:26 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible:  The Debate So Far
In-Reply-To: <00f701c0cd1e$22d262a0$bd98e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9c59qi+er77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17623

rebecca wrote:



>However, I have been deeply disappointed in your attitude 
>toward those who disagreed with you.

STUPID - adj. 1. "Very slow of apprehension" 2. Maraked by, or 
showing, a lack of understanding.
IGNORANT -adj. "Lacking awareness with the facts."
JUDGEMENTAL - "tending to judge or criticize the conduct of 
others."

   You quote my use of these words, and say they are offensive, 
and yet according  to the Dictionary definitions,there seems to be 
no reference to them being condescending in any way. They 
have legitimate meanings. What word would you use to describe 
a "judgemental" attitude?? What word would you use to describe 
an "ignorant" (i.e., lacking  in knowledge about a subject) 
comment?? What word would you use to describe an outlandich 
remark based on nothing but pure emotion with no facts to back 
it up?? (I'm sorry, was the word "outlandich improper?) 
Seriously, I would like to know. How does one communicate. I 
called no names, made no attacks on motivation of people, did 
not use profanity (unlike the HP books), and never once 
impugned a person's character, just corrected and then 
commented on their comments.
   

Cordially,

R> Abanes






From starling823 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 01:39:08 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:39:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's weaknesses, boggarts & squibs
References: <9c56vq+r5l8@eGroups.com> <3AE626C1.7BC877E4@alumni.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c0cd28$86461660$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17624

heidi wrote:
In the HP books, the spirits aren't always transparent - I mean, the ghosts are translucent, but Peeves looks solid, so it's not an absolute law of canon.

Peeves isn't a ghost, he's a poultergeist -- they're not the same thing, afaik.

Abbie, with her 2 knuts
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: heidi 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, 24 April, 2001 9:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry's weaknesses, boggarts & squibs




  Kristin wrote:

  > Real-To:  "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>
  >
  > Back on topic ;)
  >
  > I think one of Harry's weaknesses is he's not quite sure of himself
  > or his abilities at times. Although this may have to with age and
  > lack of wizarding exposure before age 11. Granted I know I wasn't
  > always confident in my teen years. It will be interesting to see if
  > he overcomes this lack of confidence or it starts to become a
  > problem in the next 3 books.

  This is one of the areas where the Dursley's abusive behaviour to Harry might be manifesting itself. His lack of self confidence is something similar to that which has been reported in studies of battered and emotionally abused children (and
  I am of the mind that he's suffered both, although the latter moreso than the former (i.e. he was emotionally abused all day every day; from the books, it seems he was physically abused somewhat less frequently)) - it affects their sense of
  self worth, because they've never been told that they're wonderful, great, brilliant, talented, etc. I have read anecdotal evidence that one or two years of love and affection in infancy & toddlerhood, which Harry had (well, for 15 months at
  least) can provide mitigation of the affects of the abuse.
  Of course, the flip side is Dudley.

  > Now on to boggorts. I think maybe boggorts are a combination of a
  > spirt and a being. They are shapeshifters and seem to have soild
  > form, whereas I've always thought of spirts being more translucent.
  > Also maybe they are a magical type of being similar to a house elf
  > and not a magical beast. This could explain why they aren't in FB.

  In the HP books, the spirits aren't always transparent - I mean, the ghosts are translucent, but Peeves looks solid, so it's not an absolute law of canon.




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From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 01:53:37 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:53:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Draco
References: <LAW2-F6407Al71xF4KU000126f6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <019201c0cd2a$8c060860$340ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17625

Hello,

> Dad calls the shots at the end of the day.  I'm afraid Lucius has got the
> son he deserves.

This line reminds me so much of Keieru's fanfiction story "Filios"....

little Alex




From john at walton.to  Wed Apr 25 01:46:52 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:46:52 +0100
Subject: Physical/emotional abuse (was: Harry's weaknesses, boggarts & squibs)
In-Reply-To: <004501c0cd28$86461660$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <B70BEB1C.2C5%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 17626

[Re: Ideas about Harry's emotional abuse/trauma]

Forgive me for not quoting text directly but this is a general post on the
above topic. For those interested in the emotional (and physical) abuse of
Harry (and Draco*), I can't recommend highly enough "Dracaena Draco" by Al.
It's an excellent piece of fan fiction, and deals maturely and sensitively
with a touchy subject. I'd love to hear reactions over on OT-Chatter. :)

You can find it on FanFiction.net under the author profile "Al". Yes, just
"Al". His bio says he looks like Harry, if you're having trouble
distinguishing. Alternatively, I doubt that "Dracaena" is a common title...
::grin::

* Draco is portrayed as a positive character in DracDrac.

--John

____________________________________________

*"Quidditch Through The Ages" by Kennilworthy Whisp: 14 Sickles 3 Knuts
*New Firebolt Broom: just over 100 Galleons
*Watching Draco Malfoy being bounced up and down
after being turned into a ferret: Priceless

The best things in life are free. For everything else, there's Harry Potter.

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 02:02:46 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:02:46 -0000
Subject: Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)
In-Reply-To: <9c59o7+6nmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5b86+gfmm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17627

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> > I'm sure many have said this before, but I can't resist saying it 
> > again, that it's especially ironic that the potions master should 
> > have this problem. Shouldn't he be able to make the perfect 
shampoo 
> > to get rid of excess oil? That is, should he care. I don't think 
he 
> > cares, for whatever reason. 
> 
> LOL, true, he should be able to create the perfect shampoo. But 
> you're right; he doesn't care enough to take the time to do such a 
> thing.
> 

BTW, while we're on the subject of Snape and his (nonexistent) love 
life, do any other folks really, really, want to see JKR introduce 
some luuurve plots for the MWPP generation? Not necessarily Snape, 
but Sirius or Lupin too? I think this would be pretty interesting, to 
see how JKR handles a mature relationship as opposed to the teenage 
dramas that we've seen. (Not to speak pejoratively. I enjoyed the 
teen/dating angst part of GoF.) I just think it would be an 
interesting change of pace. Also, as a side effect there might be 
more gender balance in the cast. 

Charmian




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Apr 25 02:04:18 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:04:18 -0000
Subject: Another rant :-), was Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c59d2+mbh3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5bb2+1eim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17628

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Becca" <rboswell at m...> wrote:

<wonderfully articulate, purposeful post snipped, but bravo Becca!>

>>and I have a documented study that I forgot the name of, again, 
that was presented in my Science class in a video, "Psuedo-Science".  
It was that one man, a retired magician, offered $1,000,000 to anyone 
who could provide solid proof that they could do any supernatural 
act.  It has been 25 years, and nobody has been able to fly, predict 
the future, or cure diseases by the touch of a finger.<<

The magician-turned-skeptic you refer to here is none other than 
James Randi. :)
  
>>I believe in miracles, but these acts are just imagination.  People 
like believing that there are cool things to do...like talk to dead 
people in their workplace.  It's fun, and it brings out a very 
valuable tool. Imagination.  Imagination is everywhere...including 
politics, but that is yet another topic. ;-) Magic's a thrill ride, 
and it's not evil.<<

I personally think that such phenomenon such as clairvoyance and 
other psychic occurences do exist... but they are products of weird 
abnormalities in the brain, and cannot be controlled by the person 
who has the ability. An imbalance of sorts. I don't think 
that "psychics" are real, because I don't believe that true "psychic 
energy" (for lack of a better term) can be used at will. I'm just 
rambling on, aren't I? OK, I'll stop my OT nonsense now...

>>If evil is what some people are suggesting exists in the books of 
Harry Potter, then I suggest they take a look at their Bible.  The 
Bible denounces evil as well, as does Harry Potter.  There is nothing 
wrong with the Harry Potter books or the Bible, and frankly, the 
people that see something wrong with these books are conspiring to 
create a disturbance.  If you see something wrong with the Harry 
Potter books, then there is something wrong with Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, 
Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, and most Science Fiction or Fantasy  
writers.  In fact, if there is a problem with the morality of Harry  
Potter, then there is a problem with the morality of every single 
book that has a good against evil plot.  Want to debate with the  
readers of the world?  You'll lose miserably.<<

I (a devout Roman Catholic, by the way, in case anyone might wonder) 
personally see NO cause whatsoever for religious institutions and 
such to be so overwhelmed and insulted by the HP series. For, as you 
so wonderfully pointed out, they are simply the tales of Good vs. 
Evil, with Good and Love triumphing over Hate and Evil. The inclusion 
of magic, witches, broomsticks, numerology, divination, astrology, 
and the miscellaneous other 'evils' that supposedly adorn the series 
are nothing more than the great and enticing embellishments of a 
realm of fantasy. FANTASY, folks. It's not real, it doesn't encourage 
children to go out and consult/worship Satan (or even Lord 
Voldemort). In fact, I'd say the most kids really want to do is dress 
up like Harry Potter for Halloween. It is the story of Good against 
Evil that truly dominates the stories, and it is this plot that more 
influences child readers, IMO, than any anount of spells or potions 
or whatever.

>>Wandering off to finish Calc homework after a really long and 
mostly off-topic post...<<

Geez, can I ever relate to that. You know, if you want to talk about 
things that are related to Satan, it is my firm belief that Isaac 
Newton was the Devil Incarnate. Therefore, Calculus is the Spawn of 
Satan... ;) *snort*

Lyda




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Wed Apr 25 02:09:29 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:09:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Bible
References: <9c54ff+7f3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE631D8.78E752B3@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17629



rabanesss at yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>

Mr. Abanes and Members of this group:

    I, like many others on this list, was very interested at the
beginning of this discussion about the potential "conflicts" between the
Harry Potter series and some of the more fundamental Christian tenets.
I welcomed Mr. Abanes presence in this group and even looked forward to
what I had hope might be some interesting intellectual and academic
argument between parties with many differing viewpoints.   However, I am
seriously disappointed with how this has turned out.  Unfortunately, it
has degenerated into a round of vicious attacks, defensiveness,
sarcastic criticism and pseudo intellectualism.  I believe also that Mr.
Abanes is at fault for the nasty turn in this discussion.   Mr. Abanes,
you asked for courtesy and an academic approach to the evaluation of the
tenets put forward in your books; however, you respond to inquiries with
an ever escalating barrage of sarcasm and insult, all the while avoiding
any real substantive answers that might further dialogue.  You seem to
pleased that you are able to "refute" any arguments by resorting to
flimsy solipsism and personal attack.  I must come to the conclusion
that your motives and aims are other than those that you  initially
presented in joining this group.  I believe that you have come simply to
proselytize.  I have had it with your false modesty and your smug
superiority clothed in the rags of Christian morality.  You are a troll
and should henceforth be treated as such.  I hereby place you in a kill
file.

Pamela Barrigher Hugonnet, Ph.D.
drpam




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Apr 25 02:13:08 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:13:08 -0000
Subject: MWPP Generation Women (was Rosebushes (was: Lots of Snape Stuff))
In-Reply-To: <9c5b86+gfmm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5brk+7dqo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17630

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
>> BTW, while we're on the subject of Snape and his (nonexistent) 
love life, do any other folks really, really, want to see JKR 
introduce some luuurve plots for the MWPP generation? Not necessarily 
Snape, but Sirius or Lupin too? I think this would be pretty 
interesting, to see how JKR handles a mature relationship as opposed 
to the teenage dramas that we've seen. (Not to speak pejoratively. I 
enjoyed the teen/dating angst part of GoF.) I just think it would be 
an interesting change of pace. Also, as a side effect there might be 
more gender balance in the cast.<<

Oh absolutely I would! Especially Snape (hey, I'm a Snapefan, you 
know *g*). I would love to see either the remaining MWPP gang have a 
decent relationship; I do think it would be interesting to see how 
JKR writes it. And I do think that the cast needs more gender and age 
balance; aside from the students, most of the teachers are over 50 
(if you need me to cite references for all my age calculations, I 
will) except for Snape and Lupin, to my knowledge. We have yet to see 
a woman who is in the 20ish-30ish age bracket. (Madam Rosmerta's got 
to be rather older herself, at least mid 40ish or so). So, I think it 
would be a good dynamic, personally.

Lyda




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Wed Apr 25 02:13:44 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:13:44 -0000
Subject: Magic Laws
In-Reply-To: <20010424133333.25762.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c5bso+edgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17631

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
This could be
> why even Hermione isn't considered a "worthy pupil"
> (as was discussed in another thread) by Snape.  She
> may have a bit of talent in pulling things together,
> but she's not a chef yet.

Hi -- I just had to disagree on this one. I believe the polyjuice 
potion has been mentioned as an indication that Hermione's good at 
potions. Let's not forget all the times she helps Neville in Potions -
 managing to *reverse* the mistakes Neville made (I think it was a 
Shrinking Potion, but don't remember which book) so that his toad 
isn't harmed. That sounds to me like she must be good at the subject. 
Has anyone wondered what Snape's reaction was when he found out that 
Hermione got past his obstacle in PS? I would have loved to have been 
a fly on the wall when he found that out! I know it wasn't strictly a 
Potions-related intelligence that got her solving that (it was logic) 
but still... I think Hermione is a 'chef' at this subject, but 
because of Snape's animosity towards her we don't see much indication 
of it... Still, I wonder why Snape dislikes her so much. 
Interestingly, he never criticizes her (I think) on her work but on 
her know-it-allness or in her helping of Neville or basically her 
personality, not her knowledge.




From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 02:31:31 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:31:31 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Bible:  The Debate So Far
References: <9c59qi+er77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01dc01c0cd2f$d7a5d3e0$340ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17632

Hello,

I wasn't going to get into this at all since I'm a happy little atheist and
I had no idea what this arguement is about, but...

> no reference to them being condescending in any way. They

They're condescending in that you're implying that you are of higher
intelligence than they are by calling them stupid.  One might remark that
the word "stupid" is condescending in nature and does not need a special
note to explain that it is.  After all, how would one call a person who
begins a conversation assuming that he is of higher intelligence than his
conversational partner?  Without anything to back him up, I might add.  Or
perhaps you aren't being condescending at all, just extremely obtuse.  I
think most people here would agree.

> have legitimate meanings.

Any word in existence has legitimate meanings, even the ones you're
misusing.

> What word would you use to describe
> a "judgemental" attitude?? What word would you use to describe
> an "ignorant" (i.e., lacking  in knowledge about a subject)
> comment??

'Your' attitude and 'your' comments, perhaps?

> What word would you use to describe an outlandich
> remark based on nothing but pure emotion with no facts to back
> it up?? (I'm sorry, was the word "outlandich improper?)

Since we're such nitpickers, I guess I must fulfill my duties by reminding
you that it's "outlandish," not "outlandich."

> How does one communicate.

By not assuming that your conversational partner is stupid, judgemental, and
ignorant.  Start with the notion that the other person does have valuable
and intelligent things to say.

> called no names, made no attacks on motivation of people, did

Calling someone 'stupid,' methinks, is akin to calling people names,
especially with the connotations associating with that word.

> not use profanity (unlike the HP books), and never once
> impugned a person's character, just corrected and then

Intelligence is as much a person's character as anything else.  So, sir, you
most certainly did impugn a person's character.

little Alex




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 02:44:10 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:44:10 -0000
Subject: MWPP Generation Women (was Rosebushes )
In-Reply-To: <9c5brk+7dqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5dlq+ih68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17634

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
<Love for the MWPP generation?>
> 
> Oh absolutely I would! Especially Snape (hey, I'm a Snapefan, you 
> know *g*). I would love to see either the remaining MWPP gang have 
a 
> decent relationship; I do think it would be interesting to see how 
> JKR writes it. And I do think that the cast needs more gender and 
age 
> balance; aside from the students, most of the teachers are over 50 
> (if you need me to cite references for all my age calculations, I 
> will) except for Snape and Lupin, to my knowledge. We have yet to 
see 
> a woman who is in the 20ish-30ish age bracket. (Madam Rosmerta's 
got 
> to be rather older herself, at least mid 40ish or so). So, I think 
it 
> would be a good dynamic, personally.

I believe you on the ages and the relative age/gender balance, so you 
don't have to give me direct citations. Hmm. There are good canonical 
reasons why these aforementioned bachelors don't seem (or as far as 
we know) to have anything going on. Sirius is a wanted man on the 
run, who's spent years in jail, Lupin's a werewolf, and Snape doesn't 
wash his hair (with all that we've agreed this reflects in his 
character). There's not much that shows that Rowling is planning or 
is extremely likely to do this, but I think it might be interesting, 
especially as a counterpoint to any younger romance. Plus it might 
let me get my sailing skills working again. 

Charmian






From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 02:58:19 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:58:19 -0700
Subject: objections to HP
Message-ID: <023101c0cd33$95d40460$340ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17635

Hello,

Are there actually atheists or agnostics who are anti-HP?  All the
objections I've seen so far are religious.  Well, 'cept for the feminist
arguement.  Okay, other than those two, are there?

little Alex
http://www.slashyalex.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr 25 02:55:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:55:47 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <f7.972d887.28175ddb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c5ebj+tod3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17636

Well, I think that the few loyal ones were NOT slytherin, because 
Slytherin 
> doesn't go with the weaker guy, IMO. They go with the strongest and 
are loyal 
> to them until their powers are toned down or they 'go out of 
style'. And 
> Hufflepuff seems like the most logical other house, because who 
else would be 
> so convinced that what they were doing was right, or would stay 
with them for 
> that long? 
***************
I see your point there. When I asked what else made you think this, I 
was just trying to see it from your point of view. I like to know 
what points lead others to their conclusions. (and I think I am 
losing ground very badly on the Godric's Hollow discussion ... but 
don't tell them I said that)
***************

Also, does anyone know if it says anywhere in the books that Peter 
> was in Gryffindor? I think that it's just an assumption that most 
people 
> make. Because he doesn't seem the type for any of the houses except 
for 
> Hufflepuff.
***************
Steve Vander Ark has Peter Pettigrew listed as being in Gryffindor in 
his Lexicon. I will ask him where he got his information. He does not 
put anything in the Lexicon unless it is based on canon, to my 
knowledge.
***************
And from what we've heard about James, he seems the type to befriend 
someone from another house, especially weak, defenseless Huffs. And 
Wormtail *was* one of the semi-loyal DE.....
***************
Now that I think about Pettigrew in this light, of your idea, 
Pettigrew does *not* fit the brave Gryffindor definition either... so 
why would your idea about the other DE be wrong? Why not Hufflepuff? 
I think you are right that they might not be Slytherin if they 
remained loyal no matter what. Slytherins seem to me to be a tad on 
the shallow side. What about them being Ravenclaw? What are your 
thoughts on that?
*************** 
Trying to defend her little idea, even though everything says that 
it's wrong~
> Wicky
***************
Awww Wicky ... you just keep on defending your little idea, even 
though everything says it's wrong~ it's not over til it's over.
Doreen
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> 
> If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach 
yourself to fly on the way down.
Or, you could write, "The Motorcycle Song" ... I don't want a 
pickle... just want to ride my motorcycle... 
***************




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 03:09:12 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Becca)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:09:12 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <3AE631D8.78E752B3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9c5f4o+k51j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17637

I cannot go into depth right now, since it is 11:00 and I have to be 
awake at 7:00 tommarrow, but that was a well written and articualte 
post, Pam, and I agree. 

Debate is not about attacks, it's about arguing a point you feel 
strongly about.  In Debate I, a traditionally high school course, 
there is a fallacy named after personal attacks.  It is called a 
fallacy ad hominem, or against the person.  Pointing out this fallacy 
is considered an easy way to prove your opponent for the debate's 
discomfort in giving intellectual answers. ^_^

Wandering off to the land of soft pillows and snoring, 

*Becca*




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 03:10:14 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:10:14 -0000
Subject: ARGUS Filch, names
In-Reply-To: <9c1rs3+52uj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5f6m+ck4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17638

Stephanie wrote:
> Hmmmmm...  Given the fact that people's names can revel things about 
> them, like Remus Lupin or Sirius Black....   Hmmm...  Opens up all 
> kinds of possibilities. 

I must admit, I find this stuff interesting.  Ignoring the obvious, 
"Lupin"=wolf, "Black=black", the names "Sirius" and "Remus" got me 
thinking.

Sirius A is the brighest star in the night sky.  It is part of the 
Canis Major (greater dog) constallation.  There is also a Sirius B, a 
much smaller companion star, which was not even seen until 1925.  
Sirius A is more than 8000 times brighter than Sirius B.  Ever notice 
how James got all the glory, while Sirius just messed around?  Then, 
in spite of the fact that Harry knew Lupin better, Siruis instantly 
eclipsed him upon his arrival?

Remus I particularaly liked.  He was the half-human son of Mars and 
the daughter of a disposed king.  The twins were raised by a wolf, 
before being adopted by a shepherd and leading a little war band of 
shepherds.  Eventually, he was captured, brought before his 
Grandfather, the current King's brother, worked out who he was and 
overthrew the King.  Down side?  He was killed by his twin brother for 
laughing at his brother's low walls.  Anyway, I do like the idea of 
our solitary Lupin being one of a pair.

Another little reference, Rosmerta is a Gallo-Roman godess, associated 
with fertility, providence and the good life.

JKR does like her in-jokes, doesn't she?

Brandgwen
(who ~feels~ like she's been here a while)




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 03:28:48 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:28:48 -0000
Subject: Rosmerta's Role  (was Re: MWPP Generation Women (was Rosebushes )
In-Reply-To: <9c5dlq+ih68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5g9g+ebrg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17639

"Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:

We have yet to 
> see 
> > a woman who is in the 20ish-30ish age bracket. (Madam Rosmerta's 
> got 
> > to be rather older herself, at least mid 40ish or so."

::coughs demurely but insistently:: as Rosmerta's namesake, I must 
leap to her defense. I have seen speculation elsewhere (won't take 
credit for this idea as my own) that she was quite young at her 
induction into the bar scene--perhaps it's her family's business or 
she started working there as a Hogwarts' student herself? In any 
even, she's NO older than mid-40s and could well be the same age as 
the MWPP crowd (her comment is something like, "the number of times I 
saw them [Sirius and James] in here..." but was she there as an older 
serving person or a fellow student? I certainly served up my share of 
butterbeer as a non-trust-funded undergrad, and I went to school in a 
town so fun that many people I graduated with are still there, 
tending bar and generally having a much nicer life than the rest of 
us rat-racers). 

Whatever her age, Rosmerta certainly has enough mojo left in her to 
make a 14-yr-old boy like Ron blush and go back for seconds, and if 
you had the time to go back and read the lines describing her in PoA 
and GoF (I don't or I'd do it for you), you'd see that besides (and 
perhaps rivalling?) Fleur she is *hands-down* the most attractively 
described woman in the books. No one else even comes close, including 
the much lauded Cho, who is never described as more than quote-
unquote pretty. Rosmerta's dress is analyzed, her allure on older 
(Fudge) and younger (Ron) men is established, her legs are 
shown...She's a "playa," as they say where I come from. I think we'll 
see her again.

~Rosmerta
the *other* one. what we have in common is that we both serve a lot 
of drinks each day. 




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Apr 25 03:42:01 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:42:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rosmerta's Role  (was Re: MWPP Generation Women (was Rosebushes )
In-Reply-To: <9c5g9g+ebrg@eGroups.com>
References: <9c5dlq+ih68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010424203929.03ee7c60@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17640

At 03:28 AM 4/25/01 +0000, Rosmerta wrote:
>Whatever her age, Rosmerta certainly has enough mojo left in her to
>make a 14-yr-old boy like Ron blush and go back for seconds, and if
>you had the time to go back and read the lines describing her in PoA
>and GoF (I don't or I'd do it for you), you'd see that besides (and
>perhaps rivalling?) Fleur she is *hands-down* the most attractively
>described woman in the books.

Besides which, since Wizards live longer than Muggles, I can
easily see her still looking in her 20's well into her 40's and 50's.



                                                 -- Dave




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 04:21:07 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:21:07 -0000
Subject: 'HP and the Bible' and thoughts on Harry...
Message-ID: <9c5jbj+3330@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17641

Agh! Comprehensive tests are always fun aren't they? (More tomorrow 
too...) When I came home and finally got a chance to catch up on 
messages I couldn't wait to unwind. However I've only become wound up 
and angry at this whole 'Harry Potter and the Bible' debate. I'm now 
fuming, but I hope I can come across as civil. Regardless, this shall 
be my first and last post on the topic, which IMO doesn't deserve the 
attention it's getting.

Mr. Abanes you surely knew when you posted here you were walking into 
a lion's den and were sure to get bitten, especially with some of the 
biting remarks you've made. (As you said the word 'ignorant' had no 
condescending meaning I suppose you won't mind that I feel many of 
your views are ignorant as well?) ;-) I will not claim to be a 
Christian, or to share your views. I don't. However I believe that 
there is truth in many forms, and Christianity may or may not be one 
of them. Life isn't black and white. If we blindly believe what 
you're saying (and as I've stated before blind faith is IMO more 
dangerous than no faith at all) then we aren't learning anything. 

Harry Potter as a character is not perfect, therefore the books that 
bear his name aren't either. On the contrary Harry is realistic. Yes 
he lies, but would you rather have a book that portrays children who 
are absolutely honest and never lie (and therefore unrealistic)? 
Cm'on. 

Mr Abanes wrote:
"Regarding Harry letting Peter go  TRUE, this is an act of mercy. 
HOWEVER, how does Rowling handle this rare good deed??? She ends up 
having the good deed turn out to be the WORST thing Harry could have 
ever done!!! Because Peter was allowed to live, Cedric dies in book 4 
and Voldemort rises. So, here we have a truly good deed  causing 
evil, but in other place many times we have bad deeds  (lying, 
cheating, stealing, breaking wizard laaws) bringing about fun and 
goodness. If that isn't cockeyed for a fairy tale/ fantasy, I don't 
know what is."

--And? If you're trying to say that "moral" decisions should always 
turn out good, and "immoral" decisions should always turn out bad, 
then I'd like to know where you're living. Things aren't that simple 
in my life (I wish they were), and they aren't in Harry's either.

Perhaps you should read Peg Kerr's essays on the seven deadly sins, 
and seven heavenly virtues among others in the files section of this 
group. She pointed out that Harry's most noble choice, (sharing the 
cup with Cedric) led to an innocent death. Not every author can do 
that, but JKR pulled it off quite effectively.

Mr Abanes also wrote:
"ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic, occultism, and 
Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up to 1/3 of what she 
has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the channeling, 
Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC spiritism and mediumship." 

--Classic indeed. JKR Rowling's Harry Potter stories are not new. 
They are a retelling of classic themes that are (perhaps) as old as 
humanity itself. It can be found in the Bible (prophecies of
Jesus' 
birth etc.) and in countless Greek and Roman writings...

Mr Abanes also commented:
"Now, discussing it from a purely literary standpoint is a DIFFERENT 
issue."

--It is indeed Mr. Abanes, and one that I do not think you have 
engaged in since joining this group. Please keep in mind that we are 
interested in discussing the Harry Potter books by Jo Rowling, not 
'Harry Potter and the Bible' by yourself. If you want to discuss
HP 
great, but if all you are going to do is squabble over your differing 
beliefs then perhaps you'd be happier elsewhere.

HARRY'S WEAKNESSES
Someone, can't remember who, mentioned one of Harry's other 
weaknesses was procrastination. I can COMPLETELY relate to this (I am 
the worlds greatest!). This is most evident in the TWT, but I can see 
how it could affect Harry later in the books.

What else are Harry's weaknesses? I think one of the greatest would 
have to be his longing for family.  (i.e. His obsession with the 
Mirror of Erised)

Scott
As someone said- "Peace, Love, and Harry Potter"




 






From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 04:36:46 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:36:46 -0000
Subject: Another rant :-), was Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9c59d2+mbh3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5k8u+fctv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17642

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Becca" <rboswell at m...> wrote:

>If you see something wrong with the Harry 
>Potter books, then there is something wrong with Tolkein, C.S. 
>Lewis,  Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, and most Science 
>Fiction or Fantasy writers.  

 ANSWER---------Untrue. I have an entire chapter devoted to 
comparing the Rowling books with those of Lewis, and Tolkien. 
Also , I love Pratchett's work. He's hysterical.



>In fact, if there is a problem with the morality of Harry Potter, 
>then there is a problem with the morality of every single book 
>that has a good against evil plot.  

ANSWER-------untrue. Rowling handles the so-called good vs. 
evil very diffferently in her tales. her tale is actually one of 
HORRENDOUS evil vs. mild badness (not really good).


>Want to debate with the readers of the world?  You'll lose 
>miserably.

ANSWER--------------Well, I happen to BE one of teh readers of 
the world. And I would be glad to debate anyone, anywhere, 
anytime. Set it up, I'll be there. I doubt I will lose, let alone 
miserably. Now, I suppose I wil be clled arrogant for that. Oh 
well.

R. Abanes






From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 04:41:11 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:41:11 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible
In-Reply-To: <3AE631D8.78E752B3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9c5kh7+uq3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17643

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Pam Hugonnet <pbarhug at e...> 
wrote:

>You seem to
pleased that you are able to "refute" any arguments by resorting 
to flimsy solipsism and personal attack.  I must come to the 
conclusion that your motives and aims are other than those that 
you  initially presented in joining this group.  I believe that you 
have come simply to proselytize.  I have had it with your false 
modesty and your smug superiority clothed in the rags of 
Christian morality.  You are a troll and should henceforth be 
treated as such.  I hereby place you in a kill file.

 ANSWER----predictable really. Oddly, it is you and others who 
have resorted to name-calling, and insults, not me. You label my 
pointed replys and rebuttals with a brutal pack of facts and 
documentation as haughtiness. And you counter doing the very 
same thing you seek to condemn. How Mr. Weasleyish of you.

Cordially,

Richard Abanes




From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 04:48:14 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:48:14 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Bible:  The Debate So Far
In-Reply-To: <01dc01c0cd2f$d7a5d3e0$340ceda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9c5kue+s3jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17644

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> 
wrote:



>> What word would you use to describe
>> a "judgemental" attitude?? What word would you use to 
>>describe an "ignorant" (i.e., lacking  in knowledge about a 
>>subject)  comment??

>'Your' attitude and 'your' comments, perhaps?

ANSWER---------Clever retort, but you failed to actually answer my 
question. METHINKS it may be because you know that saying 
something is judgemental and/or ignorant is perfectly 
acceptable. But you just don't like it.


> > What word would you use to describe an outlandich
> > remark based on nothing but pure emotion with no facts to 
>> back  it up?? (I'm sorry, was the word "outlandich improper?)

> Since we're such nitpickers, I guess I must fulfill my duties by 
reminding  you that it's "outlandish," not "outlandich."

ASNWER-----Again, cute comment, but you failed to answer the 
question , just side-stepped it.


 
> > Start with the notion that the other person does have valuable
> and intelligent things to say.

ANSWER----I did, but was proven wrong.



>>[I] called no names, made no attacks on motivation of people, 

.Calling someone 'stupid,' methinks, is akin to calling people 
>names, especially with the connotations associating with that 
>word.

     If you read my post carefully --- NOT -- you would have noticed 
I did not call the PERSON stupid, but the comment. 



> > not use profanity (unlike the HP books), and never once
> > impugned a person's character, just corrected and then

> Intelligence is as much a person's character as anything else.  
So, sir, you most certainly did impugn a person's character.

      I never said a person was unintelligent. But the thing they 
SAID was unintelligent. Someone camn be very intelligent but 
say horribly unintellign et things, as you have so aptly proved.

R. Abanes









From rabanesss at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 04:57:46 2001
From: rabanesss at yahoo.com (rabanesss at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:57:46 -0000
Subject: TO MODERATORS
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010424175526.03cddca0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c5lga+6k75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17645

Dear John

   In message 17633 on the Harry Potter board for adult fans, 
Dave Hardenbrook has violated copyright law by posting lengthy 
excerpts from my book "HARRY POTTER AND THE BIBLE. I have 
NOT given him to do so and respectfully ask that this posting be 
removed IMMEDIATELY. Please e-mail me at 
richardabanes at earthlink.net to verify that the posting has been 
removed. I sent Dave the following message:


>Okay, I have no problem with giving page references... The 
>followingare all quotes directly from the book.  I'll leave it to you 
>all to draw your own conclusions.  

     I appreciate your page references. That's great. Unfortunately, 
your reproduction of the texts in such lengthy quotations is a 
violation of copyright law and I would respectfully ask that you 
remove them from the board and not post anymore to teh 
internet in such lengthy portions. That is not consistent with 
copyright fair use laws. And as teh author who holds the 
copyright, I have the obligation / and right to grant permission for 
short quotes necessaary for explanatory examples. But what you 
have posted is simply straight out lengthy quotations. Sorry.


Cordially Richard Abanes




From child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 05:46:26 2001
From: child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com (child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 05:46:26 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV?  (correction)
In-Reply-To: <9a5j6b+8uil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c5obi+49sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17646

>It would be possible for 
>her to do multiple third person limited views -- we could have a 
>chapter from Ron's perspective, followed by one from Hermione's, 
>followed by Harry's, and tell the story that way -- but [JK Rowling]
>doesn't. 

I'm glad JK Rowling didn't write the books that way. In fourth grade, 
I read The Baby-Sitters Club Books - they were horribly unorganized. 
I shudder at the thought of Rowling writing in that style.





From child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 06:08:24 2001
From: child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com (child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:08:24 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <F1166K8CACTz8RQyi0J00000e6a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c5pko+20fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17648

I'm thinking that if JKR made Fudge a female, we would run into 
problems eventually. That whole scene about Dumbledore and Fudge 
parting ways would make some people fume. Why make Fudge, the only 
powerful (in status) female in the books, a coward? That would appear 
a bit sexist...

Icicle,
Webmstrss. of The Hogwarts Tower of Time
http://www.geocities.com/child_of_rain_1999





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth Clayton" <nizbet_noni at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...>
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
> >Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:46:01 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 meboriqua at a... wrote:
> >
> > > Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high 
positions
> > > ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would 
as many
> > > people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run 
by
> > > women?  Just like people are reluctant to vote for a woman for 
a high
> > > ranking position, people tend to be more interested in men's 
sports,
> > > in men as heros, in men with power, and women with looks.
> >
> >The question of Fudge or Dumbledore as a woman is an entirely 
different
> >one, in a way, from the question of Harry as a girl.  While I think
> >girl-Harry may indeed have reduced popularity (certainly 
initially) by
> >casuing the publisher to label the series as 'girls' books' rather 
than
> >'children's books', I don't think having a Cornelia Fudge nor an 
Alba
> >Dumbledore would've been detrimental to the series' popularity nor 
in
> >any way unbelievable. We already have Minerva MacGonagall as deputy
> >headmistress, and I doubt that in 2001 anyone's head would've 
exploded
> >at the notion that she was the actual headmistress instead.  And 
as for
> >the MoM -- Britain, unlike the US, has elected a woman to serve as 
its
> >chief executive.
> >
> >(Reminds me of that joke from around the time that Major succeeded
> >Thatcher, about the little girl saying, "But he can't be prime
> >minister; only girls can be prime minister.")
> >
> And remember, when Harry is in Dumbledores office, he notices there 
are 
> portraits of former headmasters AND headmistresses. So obviously 
there have 
> been female leaders of Hogwarts in the past. It just happens that 
there's a 
> male now.
> 
> Liz
> -----
> 'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
> 'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second 
cousin who's 
> an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
> -----
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 06:10:54 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:10:54 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Abanes discussions - please continue off list
Message-ID: <011301c0cd4e$7cbbcec0$183570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17649

Hi everyone,

Since the discussion with Richard Abanes has continued in much the same vein
as before, I think, with respect, that it's time to move on.  To my mind,
there are now more comments about Richard and his views than on the
underlying discussion of the Harry Potter books.  That isn't all down to
him, of course (although he did walk in here of his own free will), but he
can't stop being Richard Abanes. Regardless of his standpoint, some of the
attacks on him have been very strong and the moderators do not want see such
personal remarks displayed on this list.

It would be great if we could lift the literary and analytical elements from
the discussion and leave aside the insults and bad feeling, but there has
been direct rudeness on both sides and that does not create a pleasant
atmosphere for our club.  I don't agree with Richard's views on the topics
in debate, but I would not deny him the right to hold or state his views.
However, I do think the best place for them is in his book, aimed at its
Christian readership, and not here, among fervent Harry Potter fans.

Richard:  thanks for putting yourself on the spot.  No offence meant, but we
have been discussing a very specific matter, with the focus firmly on you,
and I'm not sure that you would want to remain if we weren't discussing
issues relating to your book.  If you do remain, you will be subject to the
same rules as the other list members and the moderators will be requesting
that you observe our netiquette rules, read our FAQs, scan the archives for
related discussions and embrace all aspects of the club.

I must now ask anyone who wishes to continue discussions relating to
Richard's book to do this directly with him at:

richardabanes at earthlink.net

Thank you for your cooperation.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 06:54:40 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:54:40 -0700
Subject: response
References: <9c5kuo+buop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03d801c0cd54$9a5b5e40$340ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17650

Hello,

First, please do choose your arena for 'debate.'  Offlist or onlist, but not
both; my inbox is full enough as it is, thank you very much.

> ANSWER---------Clever retort, but you failed to actually answer my
> question. METHINKS it may be because you know that saying
> something is judgemental and/or ignorant is perfectly
> acceptable. But you just don't like it.

It's true that that is merely a flippant comeback.  But, in the same spirit,
the thesaurus isn't a new invention.  Surely you can find synonyms with a
lot less negative connotations.  Since you didn't, I assume you chose these
words precisely because of their inflammatory nature.  As to myself, I have
no problem calling comments or their owners judgemental and/or ignorant,
especially in relation to you and your comments, but I will refrain myself
from doing so in this case.

> ASNWER-----Again, cute comment, but you failed to answer the
> question , just side-stepped it.

Fine.  Let's do have a real discussion over this.

> > > What word would you use to describe an outlandich
> > > remark based on nothing but pure emotion with no facts to
> >> back  it up?? (I'm sorry, was the word "outlandich improper?)

First, as I've said before, I suggest you use less offensive words if you
actually want a calm and civil conversation, as you claimed you did.
Secondly, I'd suggest you remove the value judgements on that particular
remark, whatever it was.  To actually answer your question: beliefs.  Moral
and religious beliefs are prone to be "based on pure emotion with no facts
to back  it up."  For example, I would place the remark "God exists" in such
a category ("God" as in the Christian god).

>      If you read my post carefully --- NOT -- you would have noticed
> I did not call the PERSON stupid, but the comment.

Seeing that I didn't read earlier posts at all and specifically mentioned so
(and I quote from the very beginning of my first e-mail regarding this "I
wasn't going to get into this at all since I'm a happy little atheist and I
had no idea what this arguement is about, but..."), I guess that, no, I
didn't read your post carefully, the exact same courtesy that you afforded
my post.  Oh, wait, don't tell me, you actually took it at face value.
How...cute.

> SAID was unintelligent. Someone camn be very intelligent but
> say horribly unintellign et things, as you have so aptly proved.

I wish my mother didn't teach me good manners, but since she did, I do thank
you for your "very intelligent" bit, though I have yet to find myself saying
horribly unintellig*en*t things in your presence.

little Alex

P.S.  Please don't use homosexuality as an example of "forcing" beliefs on
people.  That's not an arguement you want to get into with me.




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Apr 25 07:41:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:41:38 -0700
Subject: Muggle-born Grim - Nitpicking - Magic Laws - Harry - Owls - Shampoo
Message-ID: <3AE67FB1.E45114E4@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17651

Amy wrote:
> Penny wrote:
> > Of course, we're not sure that Hermione is the only
> > muggle-born Gryffindor.  Someone has a good theory
> > that Dean Thomas sounds muggle-born given his
> > preoccupation with soccer (and seeming lack of
> > knowledge about Quidditch).  Someone else thought
> > Lavender might also  be muggle-born.
> These are educated guesses based on the character's knowledge of
> wizarding/Muggle life or lack thereof.  My guess is that Dean and
>  Lavender are Muggle-born, because they don't know what a Grim is.

CoS: "Dean Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles, ended up
closing his eyes and jabbing his wand at the list, then picking the
subjects it landed on."  I take that as canon saying that Dean is
Muggle-born: who but Harry has been wizard-born but raised by Muggles?

I think it was me who made the point about Lavender being Muggle-born
because she didn't know about Grims, but I am so convinced that Lavender
Brown is the kind of whimsical name that wizarding folk give their
children AND that the Patil twins are Muggle-born that I am tempted to
believe that JKR made a mistake! It was Parvati, not Lavender, who
"looked puzzled"!

Lea McLeod wrote:
> I didn't mind the Hogsmeade Pub changing its name between book 1 and 3

I believe that The Hog's Head, where Hagrid said there is a rather rough
crowd, and The Three Broomsticks, suitable for students and ladies, are
different establishments.

Amber wrote:
> Even now after the fourth book, I am still confused on
> how magic in her world works. For example:
> 1) What exactly is a Charm? To me, a Charm means that
> something is enchanted to perform a type of magic

I *think* JKR explained in an interview that Charms, Transfigurations,
Hexes, Jinxes, and Curses are all spells. They are various kinds of
spells. I *think* she said that a Charm is a spell that alters
something's BEHAVIOR while Transfiguration changes a thing into a
different thing. In SS, the Flying Keys were the Charm puzzle. I would
have thought that changing old metal keys into brightly winged keys was
a Transfiguration, but apparently I would have been wrong: it's a Charm.

I'm inclined to think that Hexes, Jinxes, and Curses are all Charms, the
names referring to the degree of HARM they do to their target.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and
> talents, but I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.
> What are they?  What are the things about Harry that could
> really end up hurting him?

The first thing that came to my mind is that he doesn't want to confide
in the grown-ups. He could end up facing something HUGE single-handedly
because he didn't tell Dumbledore something he should have. OTOH, in GoF
he seems to be overcoming that.

Browneyes wrote:
> if hedwig can find sirius for harry, why isn't
> MOM sending their owls out to track him???

This was discussed before but the group never agreed on an answer. My
theory is that the owls use Owl Magic to find the addressees (even,
wrote JKR, if only the name and no address was written on the letter)
and they use Owl Magic to fly "between" (like Pern dragons -- or call it
taking a shortcut through an alternate dimension) to get to the
addressee, and humans on broomsticks cannot follow the Owls while they
are "between".

Btw, Joe, the Moderators previously told us to combine our many short
posts into one long post, which is why I am putting so many different
things into this post here.

Ouroboros wrote:
> I'm sure many have said this before, but I can't resist saying
> it again, that it's especially ironic that the potions master
> should have this problem. Shouldn't he be able to make
> the perfect shampoo to get rid of excess oil?

Except for the claim that bobotuber pus cures acne (altho' it doesn't
seem to have helped Moaning Myrtle when she was alive), JKR magic
doesn't seem much of a threat to the cosmetics industry. Nobody is doing
spells to be slim or have bigger eyelashes blablabla. Hermione used
'liberal quantities of Sleekeezy's Hair Potion' in the UK edition but 'a
whole jar of Hair-So-Sleek' in the US edition, and I couldn't tell
whether Hair-So-Sleek was supposed to be a magic or a Muggle product. It
might as well be a Muggle product if it takes a whole jar and a couple
of hours work: what is use of having magic if it can't sleek Hermione's
hair with a wand wave and an incantation????

Meanwhile, back on Snape, I choose to believe that he isn't actually
oily, his skin just LOOKS oily. I know someone who has that problem.
And 'slimy' was a value judgment, not a physical description.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 08:02:30 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:02:30 -0000
Subject: Rosmerta's Bar   
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010424203929.03ee7c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c60am+23ed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17652

Maybe it is a family business and that is why the name 
changed between books. Her parents may have retired and 
the bar now belongs to her. 

Bugg 

>>>> 

At 03:28 AM 4/25/01 +0000, Rosmerta wrote: 
perhaps it's her family's business or she started working 
there as a Hogwarts' student herself? 

Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote: 
Besides which, since Wizards live longer than Muggles, I can
easily see her still looking in her 20's well into her 40's and 50's.
 
                                                  -- Dave




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 08:09:46 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:09:46 -0000
Subject: Who's Muggleborn/Cosmetics
In-Reply-To: <3AE67FB1.E45114E4@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9c60oa+b43b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17653

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:

> 
> CoS: "Dean Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles, 
ended up
> closing his eyes and jabbing his wand at the list, then picking the
> subjects it landed on."  I take that as canon saying that Dean is
> Muggle-born: who but Harry has been wizard-born but raised by 
Muggles?

That would make sense. Nice catch there. 

> 
> I think it was me who made the point about Lavender being Muggle-
born
> because she didn't know about Grims, but I am so convinced that 
Lavender
> Brown is the kind of whimsical name that wizarding folk give their
> children AND that the Patil twins are Muggle-born that I am tempted 
to
> believe that JKR made a mistake! It was Parvati, not Lavender, who
> "looked puzzled"!

Hmmm. I can't recall anything in canon that really states that the 
Patil twins are muggleborn, or that they are not. For some students, 
we get confirmation of whether they are wizarding or non wizarding 
(Cedric, the Creeveys, etc.) but for more minor characters, we can't 
really say either way. (for example:  what about Cho?)


<wizarding and beauty industry>
It
> might as well be a Muggle product if it takes a whole jar and a 
couple
> of hours work: what is use of having magic if it can't sleek 
Hermione's
> hair with a wand wave and an incantation????
> 

That's true. Perhaps hair magic is just difficult. I suspect that 
Lockheart enhanced his smile (and he did do things to his hair), so 
perhaps lots of wizard beauty care products exist. But there's also 
the tooth straightening episode. Now, I think orthodontics would be 
much more difficult to fix than hair, but oh well. But if they can 
deal with broken bones, etc. so easily, it's no wonder wizards are so 
long lived. 

> Meanwhile, back on Snape, I choose to believe that he isn't actually
> oily, his skin just LOOKS oily. I know someone who has that problem.
> And 'slimy' was a value judgment, not a physical description.

Could be so too, that his hair and skin just look that way. No one's 
really wanted to get close enough to tell the difference, except for 
some members of the fan club. :) 

Charmian




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 09:18:24 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:18:24 +0200
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <988162856.3331.21022.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010425104345.00a1fcc0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 17654


Doreen wrote:
><< So, what else makes you
>  think that those who were loyal, such as the couple who are still in
>  Azkaban, were Hufflepuffs?  >>

Wicky wrote:


>Well, I think that the few loyal ones were NOT slytherin, because Slytherin
>doesn't go with the weaker guy, IMO. They go with the strongest and are loyal
>to them until their powers are toned down or they 'go out of style'.

That definitely applies to people like Lucius, but IIRC Mr. and 
Mrs.  Lestrange were Slytherins [part of the gang of Slytherins that almost 
all became DE], and they definitely are counted among the most loyal ones.
Whenever I read the trial scenes [one of the most chilling in the GoF, and 
IMO even more disturbing than the rebirthing party ones-- I always mention 
them when I try to convince people that HP are not just children books] I 
cannot escape the impression that Lestranges' "loyalty" really is due to 
pride [of the dangerous blinding varierty].
The Hufflepuff kind of loyalty I always tend to associate with attributes 
like "steadfast and true". I think that  Dumbledore said something like 
that about Cedric.
However, all this does not mean that  Hufflepuffs cannot have evil potential.
Just like I do not think that all Slytherins are bad  ;-)


Vlatka


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 10:19:15 2001
From: ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?jill=20adrain?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:19:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: curse scars and cedric...
Message-ID: <20010425101915.25517.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17655

 hi everyone, 
my name is jill and i've been lurking for a while now.
i just finished GoF for the 4th time this morning, and
came across something that i hadn't noticed before.
now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong,
but here goes:
...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways
-dumbledore has just told fudge everything, and fudge
is questioning dumbledore's belief in harry...

"You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
scar acting as an alarm bell before..."

surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
to someone elses curse scar?

While i'm here, somthing else i noticed:(these have
probably already been mentioned, or else i'm just
stupid!)
In the graveyard,when cedric dies:

"From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold
voice say, 'kill the spare.'
A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched
the words to the night:'Avada kedavra!'

Now, assuming V is the 1st voice, as wormtail is
hardly in a position to give orders (&he's often
referred to as having a high voice) who is the 2nd
voice?wormtail/pettigrew????????if so, that means
cedric shouldn't have come out of v's wand. unless
wormtail used v's wand of course, or v did do the
killing. i don't know! 

enough of that,
jill

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 10:47:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:47:03 -0000
Subject: curse scars and cedric...
In-Reply-To: <20010425101915.25517.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c69v7+a7vr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17656

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jill adrain <ickle_squidge at y...> wrote:
>  hi everyone, 
> my name is jill and i've been lurking for a while now.
> i just finished GoF for the 4th time this morning, and
> came across something that i hadn't noticed before.
> now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong,
> but here goes:
> ...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways
> -dumbledore has just told fudge everything, and fudge
> is questioning dumbledore's belief in harry...
> 
> "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
> scar acting as an alarm bell before..."
> 
> surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
> scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
> to someone elses curse scar?
> 
I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions aren't very 
recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed.
If it is written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is 
dismissing something he has had knowledge of - therefore he doesn't 
deem it to be of any significance.  In which case - why?

I haven't been here for long myself, so I can't verify whether this 
has been discussed before.  However, IIRC, I don't think that it came 
up in the Chapter 36 discussions a few weeks ago?

Can anyone clarify what it says in a later edition?

Catherine




From SoSilently at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 11:10:13 2001
From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:10:13 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: curse scars and cedric...
Message-ID: <bb.dca290a.28180a95@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17657

In a message dated 4/25/2001 3:47:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jill adrain <ickle_squidge at y...> wrote:
>  > 
>  > "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
>  > scar acting as an alarm bell before..."
>  > 
>  > surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
>  > scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
>  > to someone elses curse scar?
>  > 
>  I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions aren't very 
>  recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed.
>  If it is written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is 
>  dismissing something he has had knowledge of - therefore he doesn't 
>  deem it to be of any significance.  In which case - why?

I've got the US first edition (we picked it up the week it came out), and the 
sentence reads "but I've *never* heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm 
bell before..." (emphasis mine). He seems to be implying that Harry's case is 
unusual, and therefore less than trustworthy. It does seem like a rather 
vital word to leave out of the sentence, though - what edition do you have?

--chloe



From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 11:19:13 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:19:13 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cosmetics
Message-ID: <LAW2-F457hx27kBnccY00002b08@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17658

Charmian wrote
<snip fun discussion on cosmetics
>That's true. Perhaps hair magic is just difficult. I suspect that
>Lockheart enhanced his smile (and he did do things to his hair), so
>perhaps lots of wizard beauty care products exist. But there's also
>the tooth straightening episode. Now, I think orthodontics would be
>much more difficult to fix than hair, but oh well. But if they can
>deal with broken bones, etc. so easily, it's no wonder wizards are so
>long lived.
>
> > Meanwhile, back on Snape, I choose to believe that he isn't actually
> > oily, his skin just LOOKS oily. I know someone who has that problem.
> > And 'slimy' was a value judgment, not a physical description.
>
>Could be so too, that his hair and skin just look that way. No one's
>really wanted to get close enough to tell the difference, except for
>some members of the fan club. :)

Perhaps if Lockheart achieves part of his ambition (free, signed copy of 
"Magical Me" to anyone who remembers the rest of his ambition, without 
looking it up), there might be something in his hair-care product range to 
help Snape ;) !
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 11:22:29 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:22:29 -0400
Subject: response from r. abanes
References: <9c5k99+icv3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0cd7a$043a2ec0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17659

Mr. Abanes:

    I believe you misunderstood.  You wrote:

> ANSWER-------untrue. Rowling handles the so-called good vs.
> evil very diffferently in her tales. her tale is actually one of
> HORRENDOUS evil vs. mild badness (not really good).

   I agree that there is a horrendous evil, but mild badness is what is
called being a teenager.  Do not try and tell me that you *never* told a
teacher that you left your homework at home when you didn't do it, or you
*never* got really angry with a friend and threw something at him/her.  I
think that the mild badness is more of teenage cheekyness, and not inherent
bad.  Harry is the progaganist, but do you honestly think that he must be a
perfectly clean, angel sterile person?  Everyone has faults, and your "mild
badness" is pointing to the bits of Harry's character that are adolesent and
outgoing, if a bit cheeky.  There is no bad in Harry, only a more realistic
character than that of a white, pure, angel who fights the forces of
horrendous evil.  See, that would be incredibly boring.  Rowling does not
make is evil v. bad, she makes it evil PEOPLE with faults  v. good PEOPLE
with faults.  Not pure evil (voldemort is a hypocrit, for example, an error
in his complete evil) v  pure good (since Hary is a teenager and therefore
not perfect)

More later,

Becca

----- Original Message -----
From: <rabanesss at yahoo.com>
To: <rboswell at mediaone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: response


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Becca" <rboswell at m...> wrote:
>
> >If you see something wrong with the Harry
> >Potter books, then there is something wrong with Tolkein, C.S.
> >Lewis,  Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, and most Science
> >Fiction or Fantasy writers.
>
>  ANSWER---------Untrue. I have an entire chapter devoted to
> comparing the Rowling books with those of Lewis, and Tolkien.
> Also , I love Pratchett's work. He's hysterical.
>
>
>
> >In fact, if there is a problem with the morality of Harry Potter,
> >then there is a problem with the morality of every single book
> >that has a good against evil plot.
>
> ANSWER-------untrue. Rowling handles the so-called good vs.
> evil very diffferently in her tales. her tale is actually one of
> HORRENDOUS evil vs. mild badness (not really good).
>
>
> >Want to debate with the readers of the world?  You'll lose
> >miserably.
>
> ANSWER--------------Well, I happen to BE one of teh readers of
> the world. And I would be glad to debate anyone, anywhere,
> anytime. Set it up, I'll be there. I doubt I will lose, let alone
> miserably. Now, I suppose I wil be clled arrogant for that. Oh
> well.
>
> R. Abanes
>
>
>




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed Apr 25 11:22:07 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:22:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: curse scars and cedric...
In-Reply-To: <9c69v7+a7vr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOENODHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17660

Jill: <<<my name is jill and i've been lurking for a while now. i just
finished GoF for the 4th time this morning, and came across something that
i hadn't noticed before.>>>

Hello and welcome to the group.


Jill: <<<now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong, but here
goes: ...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways -dumbledore has just
told fudge everything, and fudge is questioning dumbledore's belief in
harry...
"You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an
alarm bell before..."
surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse scar...in order to prove
his point. or is he referring to someone elses curse scar?>>>

Catherine: <<< I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions aren't
very recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed. If it is
written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is dismissing something
he has had knowledge of - therefore he doesn't deem it to be of any
significance.  In which case - why?
I haven't been here for long myself, so I can't verify whether this has
been discussed before.  However, IIRC, I don't think that it came up in the
Chapter 36 discussions a few weeks ago?>>>

I have had a quick look through the archives and I believe this is the
first mention of this. Also I cannot remember it having been picked up
before now.

I am guessing that you both have an early UK printing of the book (like
myself), as it seems to be correct in the US version (thanks to Chloe for
that piece of information). It makes the whole exchange a lot more
interesting, but is unfortunately almost certainly a simple mistype.


Jill: <<<While i'm here, somthing else i noticed:(these have probably
already been mentioned, or else i'm just
stupid!) In the graveyard,when cedric dies:
"From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, 'kill the
spare.' A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to
the night:'Avada kedavra!'
Now, assuming V is the 1st voice, as wormtail is hardly in a position to
give orders (&he's often referred to as having a high voice) who is the 2nd
voice?wormtail/pettigrew????????if so, that means cedric shouldn't have
come out of v's wand. Unless wormtail used v's wand of course, or v did do
the killing. i don't know!>>>

I believe that you are correct in your assumption that Wormtail sends the
curse to kill Cedric using Voldemort's wand.


Again, welcome to the group.


Simon







From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 11:29:36 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:29:36 -0400
Subject: To Lyda 
References: <988179091.1651.93612.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0cd7b$02fed320$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17661

Lyda:

Here's my mega THANK YOU for the great thumbs up to my post! :-) And for the
name of Mr. Study man...James Randi!

I agree, forget HP being the spawn of the devil, let's talk about math!  Who
reaally needs to know about the area of a circle or how fast some train you
really weren't on goes?  All those numbers, GAHH! BTW, I'm in Pre-calc
still...I've got a few months before I'm thrown with only a calculator and
pencils to defend me, straight into room 13B Fire Torture!

Off to school, Eeeeh!

*Becca*




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Apr 25 11:38:53 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:38:53 -0000
Subject: curse scars [text variations]
In-Reply-To: <20010425101915.25517.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c6d0d+5sgb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17662

The U.S. and U.K. Editions differ in this line:

The U.S. first printing, p. 706, says: 
"You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've *never* heard of a curse 
scar acting as an alarm bell before. . . ." [emphasis added]

The U.K. Deluxe Edition, "First Edition," p. 613, says: 
'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting 
as an alarm bell before ...' 

I've tried to reproduce the differences in punctuation also.  I agree 
that Scholastic's version makes more sense.

-JIm Flanagan


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jill adrain <ickle_squidge at y...> wrote:
>  hi everyone, 
> my name is jill and i've been lurking for a while now.
> i just finished GoF for the 4th time this morning, and
> came across something that i hadn't noticed before.
> now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong,
> but here goes:
> ...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways
> -dumbledore has just told fudge everything, and fudge
> is questioning dumbledore's belief in harry...
> 
> "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
> scar acting as an alarm bell before..."
> 
> surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
> scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
> to someone elses curse scar?
> 




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Apr 25 12:05:56 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:05:56 -0000
Subject: Crouch and the bone!
Message-ID: <9c6ej4+r8pd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17663

Hi,
I don't think this question was up recently, but I wonder if you 
noticed:

Voldemort returned to life, after taking the "bone fo the father" 
(paraphrasing).
When Crouch jr. had killed his father, he turned him into a bone and 
buried him. Could that mean, that V. has a possibility to renew the 
soul-less Crouch with the same potion he used to renew his body?
Any Ideas?

I do believe we will see crouch jr. again.
Mecki




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 12:23:43 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:23:43 -0000
Subject: curse scars and cedric...
In-Reply-To: <bb.dca290a.28180a95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9c6fkf+nv3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17664

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., SoSilently at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/25/2001 3:47:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> catherine at c... writes:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jill adrain <ickle_squidge at y...> wrote:
> >  > 
> >  > "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
> >  > scar acting as an alarm bell before..."
> >  > 
> >  > surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
> >  > scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
> >  > to someone elses curse scar?
> >  > 
> >  I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions aren't very 
> >  recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed.
> >  If it is written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is 
> >  dismissing something he has had knowledge of - therefore he 
doesn't 
> >  deem it to be of any significance.  In which case - why?
> 
> I've got the US first edition (we picked it up the week it came 
out), and the 
> sentence reads "but I've *never* heard of a curse scar acting as an 
alarm 
> bell before..." (emphasis mine). He seems to be implying that 
Harry's case is 
> unusual, and therefore less than trustworthy. It does seem like a 
rather 
> vital word to leave out of the sentence, though - what edition do 
you have?
> 
> --chloe

Well, that clears that up!  I have the English edition and the 
word "never" is omitted.  Another error in editing to add to the 
list. 

Catherine




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 12:50:45 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:50:45 -0000
Subject: Cosmetics
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F457hx27kBnccY00002b08@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c6h75+mno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17665

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Perhaps if Lockheart achieves part of his ambition (free, signed 
copy of 
> "Magical Me" to anyone who remembers the rest of his ambition, 
without 
> looking it up), there might be something in his hair-care product 
range to 
> help Snape ;) !


As someone who has rather Hermione-like hair, and has been known to 
use several jars and bottles of Muggle hair products to no avail, I 
hope that harmony between magical and non-magical peoples is 
achieved, so that I, too, may be able to partake of some Lockhart 
Lock Lusture Products.  (I bet they're only sold in the *finest* 
salons.)

FURTHERMORE -- if they can fix teeth and bones, WHY don't they 
correct vision?  Even Muggles can do that (if you don't have an 
astigmatism, that is)

Stephanie




> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Apr 25 09:51:08 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:51:08 EST5EDT
Subject: Two things....real quick
Message-ID: <12FF97A3C29@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17666

First off, why are you guys taking Abanes's bait?  He wants to have 
an argument over something that will never be settled on common 
grounds.  I'm just doing what I do with all other Christians that 
embarrass me to be grouped with - ignoring him.  There's nothing 
wrong with reading Harry Potter.  We all know that.  Evil isn't in the 
pages of the book.  If there is any evil, it's in the heart of the person 
finding it.  So everyone take a deep breath, shake your head in 
disgust and let him go on his (un)merry little way.

Secondly...I was wondering if I heard correctly that JK gave a little 
hint (or rather, planted a seed of thought) that Harry might die by 
the end of the series.  Or was this a topic here that was 
discussed?  Anyway, I thought that was an interesting thought.  I 
do believe Dumbledore is going to die before the end of the series 
but Harry dying....hmmmm......Very interesting.

Anyway, I was just curious about that, whether it was a topic here 
or something from a Rowling interview.

Thanks.

By the way, the Harry character sketches have been awesome.


Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.



From dorband at uwp.edu  Wed Apr 25 13:53:30 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:53:30 -0000
Subject: Two Paradoxes that make my head swim...
Message-ID: <9c6ksq+691h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17667

Hi all,

I'm struggling with two instances that I just can't seem to come to 
grips with...help me:

Paradox #1

In CoS, Tom Marvelo Riddle materializes as a (seemingly) real 
corporeal being, a true physical entity; not just an apparition or a 
spirit or ghost, but real, live (?) being.  Is that the general 
impression?  It is for me; anyway, if Riddle had been successful in 
loosing the basilisk to terrorize Hogwarts and its residents, 
eventually conquering or running off everyone, allowing Riddle - the 
one from the diary - to reign supreme, wouldn't we then have Voldemort 
and Riddle - two separate entities?  

We don't get the impression that Riddle (from the diary) is aware of 
V's exploits, since he had to get briefed by Harry regarding their (V 
and Harry's) encounter; and V isn't aware of Harry's encounter with 
Riddle (that I recall), so they seem to exist independent of one 
another...so I can't get past the notion that if Riddle had 
successfully captured Hogwarts, and V was still in existence, albeit a 
mere shadow of his former self - but hellbent on rejuvenating, 
wouldn't that be the equivalent of 2 Voldemorts in existence 
simultaneously?  Is that OK in the Wizarding world?  Perhaps part of 
Voldmort's dark powers - the ability to incorporate as multiple 
entities?


Paradox #2

The nature and implications of the time-turner has always given me 
fits.  When Harry is about to be kissed by the dementors in PoA, he 
sees who he thinks is his father and is saved by the patronus; of 
course this turns out to be Harry himself after utilizing the 
time-turner with Hermione.  Harry tells Hermione that he knew he could 
cast a patronus because he recognizes that HE was the one who had 
already done it, not his father.  Now as he recognizes this, he is in 
the past via the time-turner; he is effectively remembering an event 
from the future...you see why this is vexing me?  Now we have 
something that is borderline predestiny - present-time Harry was saved 
by time-turned Harry, but only because time-turned Harry recognizes 
that he was capable of casting a patronus since that's what saved 
present-time Harry in the first place, and he must have been the one 
to do it.  So time-turned Harry was predestined to "be there" when 
present-time Harry needed to be saved, even though that had nothing to 
do with the reason they used the time-turner.  Clearly, timed-turned 
Harry's intervention in saving present-time Harry will have future 
implications (after all, Harry was saved from the dementor's kiss, so 
he would surely have been a goner, and the future of every wizard 
would be affected), and doesn't that violate some rule of time travel?


If any of you have made it this far through this confused and 
inarticulate post, I salute you; but can anybody offer me a more 
satisfactory understanding of these two scenes?  Or do we just not 
know enough about the dynamics of time-turning?  Or, hey, this is HP's 
world, and anything can happen (I can live with that, by the way <g>).

Any takers?


Brian




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr 25 14:28:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:28:48 -0000
Subject: curse scars and cedric...
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOENODHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9c6mv0+vgre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17668

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:
> Jill: <<<my name is jill and i've been lurking for a while now. i 
just
> finished GoF for the 4th time this morning, and came across 
something that
> i hadn't noticed before.>>>
> 
> Hello and welcome to the group.
> 
> 
> Jill: <<<now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong, but 
here
> goes: ...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways -dumbledore 
has just
> told fudge everything, and fudge is questioning dumbledore's belief 
in
> harry...
> "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting 
as an
> alarm bell before..."
> surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse scar...in order to 
prove
> his point. or is he referring to someone elses curse scar?>>>
> 
> Catherine: <<< I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions 
aren't
> very recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed. If 
it is
> written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is dismissing 
something
> he has had knowledge of - therefore he doesn't deem it to be of any
> significance.  In which case - why?
> I haven't been here for long myself, so I can't verify whether this 
has
> been discussed before.  However, IIRC, I don't think that it came 
up in the
> Chapter 36 discussions a few weeks ago?>>>
> 
> I have had a quick look through the archives and I believe this is 
the
> first mention of this. Also I cannot remember it having been picked 
up
> before now.
> 
> I am guessing that you both have an early UK printing of the book 
(like
> myself), as it seems to be correct in the US version (thanks to 
Chloe for
> that piece of information). It makes the whole exchange a lot more
> interesting, but is unfortunately almost certainly a simple mistype.
> Simon

************************
I have a US edition which has the word "never" in it. I also have a 
newer edition which they did *not* correct. It still does *not* have 
this sentence corrected. I wonder if JKR or the publishers are aware 
of this.

Btw, if anyone ever does not have their books handy and needs 
something clarified by either the US or UK editions, just let me 
know. I have my books here. I stopped loaning them out. I have two 
loaners that I use instead. By the end of CS, most people go buy 
their own books.
Doreen
************************




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 13:45:36 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] curse scars and cedric...
In-Reply-To: <20010425101915.25517.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010425134536.60556.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17670

> "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse
> scar acting as an alarm bell before..."
> surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse
> scar...in order to prove his point. or is he referring
> to someone elses curse scar?


Yes.  I assumed this was another one of those clues for future
explication that JKR is so good at.

 
> "From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold
> voice say, 'kill the spare.'
> A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched
> the words to the night:'Avada kedavra!'
> 
> Now, assuming V is the 1st voice, as wormtail is
> hardly in a position to give orders (&he's often
> referred to as having a high voice) who is the 2nd
> voice?wormtail/pettigrew????????if so, that means
> cedric shouldn't have come out of v's wand. unless
> wormtail used v's wand of course, or v did do the
> killing. i don't know! 


Wormtail killed Cedric with V's wand because at that moment in time
V. was in no condition to wave it around himself.  Now how did the
wand get from Wormtail to V's pocket as V. rose from the cauldron? 
That wasn't described that I could see.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From tommygirl618811 at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 13:48:28 2001
From: tommygirl618811 at aol.com (tommygirl618811 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:48:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <17.14c2dbaf.28182fac@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17671

Doreen said:
<< Now that I think about Pettigrew in this light, of your idea, 
 Pettigrew does *not* fit the brave Gryffindor definition either... so 
 why would your idea about the other DE be wrong? Why not Hufflepuff? 
 I think you are right that they might not be Slytherin if they 
 remained loyal no matter what. Slytherins seem to me to be a tad on 
 the shallow side. What about them being Ravenclaw? What are your 
 thoughts on that? >>

Well, (it's about 6:30 in the morning here, and I stayed up laaaaaate last 
night, so if this doesn't make much sense, blame.......that! ::points at 
calculator::) I think that maybe some Ravenclaws are DE, but not as many as 
Hufflepuff and Slytherin. Because the Ravenclaws *could* help them come up 
with Really Good Plans, but they don't seem to be having many of those, do 
they? ::snickers::. Well, the graveyard/Portkey thingy in the end of GoF was 
well, planned, maybe they helped out on that.....
Going back to bed~
Wicky
If you have to jump off a cliff, you might as well try to teach yourself to 
fly on the way down.



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Apr 25 15:11:43 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:11:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's scar and the movie
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8E27@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17672



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com [mailto:pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 4:14 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's scar and the movie
> 
> 
> Real-To:  pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com
> 
> 
> i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and his 
> scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> please go to this site 
> http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me that i 
> am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this detail.
> 
> a fellow hp fan has looked at this pic and agreed with me, she said,
> 'it looks like they just thought, damn, we cant see the scar because 
> of his fring, oh well, we'll just move it!'

I don't think this is his scar - at least, I HOPE it isn't - I do think it
is a cut, though, and it looks like his nose is cut as well - which could
VERY EASILY be the results of his battle with Quirrell and Voldemort to get
the Stone, since he was injured down there. 



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr 25 15:20:08 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:20:08 -0000
Subject: curse scars [text variations]
In-Reply-To: <9c6d0d+5sgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c6pv8+bde9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> The U.S. and U.K. Editions differ in this line:
> 
> The U.S. first printing, p. 706, says: 
> "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've *never* heard of a curse 
> scar acting as an alarm bell before. . . ." [emphasis added]
> 
> The U.K. Deluxe Edition, "First Edition," p. 613, says: 
> 'You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar 
acting 
> as an alarm bell before ...' 
> 
> I've tried to reproduce the differences in punctuation also.  I 
agree 
> that Scholastic's version makes more sense.
> 
> -JIm Flanagan
************************************
There is another line in GF that is in error. This line was pointed 
out to me, in a personal letter, I think. I am not sure if it was 
mentioned in early posts or not. I also do not remember who first 
told me about it ... an English teacher, perhaps? My memory for names 
is terrible and I can not find the letter. If you know who you 
are ... help!

Anywho ... the line is in GF and it is on page 712, Parting of the 
Ways in US:

"Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth do not 
stand united, there is no hope for any of us."

the line is in GF and it is on page 618, Parting of the Ways in UK:
"Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth stand 
united, there is no hope for any of us."

This time, the UK edition is the one that makes the most sense.

Doreen as told by someone whose name slips my mind, who told it to me.




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Apr 25 15:19:00 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:19:00 -0000
Subject: new on the Lexicon
Message-ID: <9c6pt4+q4f5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17674

Greetings:

Just added to the Harry Potter Lexicon this morning, through the 
wonderful efforts of Neil and Doreen:

Strictly British: A glossary of British terms and phrases

This page isn't comprehensive (no website is EVER finished) but 
what's there is already a delightful read, and extremely informative 
for us non-British types.

You can find the page by clicking on either "About the Lexicon" 
or "Help/About" on the main page, which is found at:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

Thanks
Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
never finished, which means always something new to discover
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr 25 15:27:04 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:27:04 -0000
Subject: Crouch and the bone!
In-Reply-To: <9c6ej4+r8pd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c6qc8+sr7o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17675

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> Hi,
> I don't think this question was up recently, but I wonder if you 
> noticed:
> 
> Voldemort returned to life, after taking the "bone fo the father" 
> (paraphrasing).
> When Crouch jr. had killed his father, he turned him into a bone 
and 
> buried him. Could that mean, that V. has a possibility to renew the 
> soul-less Crouch with the same potion he used to renew his body?
> Any Ideas?
> 
> I do believe we will see crouch jr. again.
> Mecki

******************
Very interesting point, and just the kind of hint that JKR writes 
that we go back and look at *after* JKR explains it to us via 
Dumbledore at the end of the books.

This is one of the things I love most about JKR's writing. Each of 
her books demands at least one re-read, just to go back and find the 
hints which were right in front of us all the time. Then, this group 
causes a few more re-reads. This is not to mention the re-reads and 
listening to the tapes that I do for the sheer pleasure of it. I am 
not obsessed. I am not obsessed. I am obsessed.

Doreen




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 25 15:48:21 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:48:21 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Wizard School (A Filk for the Harry Fortnight)
Message-ID: <9c6rk5+k1uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17676

Hogwarts Wizard School

Dedicated to Catherine

(To the tune of Sunset Boulevard)

(The Scene: Before Hogwarts' Castle. Enter HARRY)

HARRY
Raised by the Dursleys
Against their will,
Orphaned outcast, they fed me swill
They had me always bound in fetters
But after ten years 
Of cupboard hell
With spider webs 
Their screams and yells
I was delivered by your letters

Hogwarts Wizard School
Magic Wizard School
Wonderful and weird, a little scary
Hogwarts Wizard School
Cherished Wizard School
Just the place for this young lad named Harry

I soon joined a house
I made the team 
The whole thing seemed as if a dream 
But there's a fly upon the ointment
A Dark Wizard whom 
I stopped before
Who killed my folks
Lord Voldemort
Vows he'll avenge his disappointment

Hogwarts Wizard School
Mystic Wizard School
Far beyond the mundane world of Muggles
Hogwarts Wizard School
Stormy Wizard School
The epicenter of our epic struggles

They've hunted for me
Since I arrived here
First it was Quirrell
Backed up by Voldy
Then it was Riddle
Inside his diary
Fearsome Dementors
Tried to un-soul me

I spared Wormtail
Who double-crossed us
Helped restore Voldy
Who's back among us
He tried to slay me
Instead killed Cedric
Crouch took the next shot
The old Polyjuice ploy......

I've changed a lot 
Over four years
I've friends who've helped me persevere
Whenever my heart started saggin'
With Hermione 
And Ron, the Twins,
Black, Dumbledore,
Remus Lupin, 
Hagrid and his
Forbidden dragons

Hogwarts Wizard School
Learn?d Wizard School
Instructing us in magic arts and science
Hogwarts Wizard School
Valiant Wizard School
Forging an unbreakable alliance

Darkness will give way
And then the dawn
Unfurls her light till gloom's withdrawn
The end of Voldy's revolution
But as we await 
What fate intends
I can't but mourn 
For all those friends
Who face predestined execution

Hogwarts Wizard School
Magic Wizard School
Only now have we reached The Beginning
Hogwarts Wizard School
Tragic Wizard School
Soon the ranks of heroes will be thinning
Here at Hogwarts Wizard School!

(With a flourish of his robe, HARRY exits to Gryffindor Tower)

   - CMC





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 25 16:36:14 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:36:14 -0000
Subject: Green Death Rays (filk)
Message-ID: <9c6udu+p9m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17677

Green Death Rays

(To the tune of The Ballad of the Green Berets)

Dedicated to Lisa

(The Scene: A disreputable tavern on Knockturn Alley. Enter Chorus of 
Death-Eaters)

McNAIR
Great Salazar, we are thrice-blessed
The Slytherin Snake is upon our crest
We've Voldemort who hardball plays
And we have wands shooting green death rays

CHORUS
Skulls to scream across the sky
An evil hex to make folks die
A dark tattoo to proudly blaze
On the arms of men shooting green death rays

GOYLE (pere)
Those who'd slight pure wizard blood
Who'd mingle it with Muggles' mud
For their stance we'll make them pay
When we target them with a green death ray

CHORUS
Screaming skulls across the sky
An evil hex to make folks die
Wizards who cast their Avada K's
As they wave wands shooting green death rays

LUCIUS MALFOY
Soon my son will earn his NEWTS
He shall adopt mature pursuits
He shall learn to be a man 
And to keep his butt out of Azkaban

LUCIUS & CHORUS
Put the Dark Mark on my/his son's arm
Let him cast Unforgiven charms
He shall earn his father's praise
When his wand first fires green death rays.

 - CMC





From moey at sugarquill.com  Wed Apr 25 16:40:57 2001
From: moey at sugarquill.com (First Mate Mo)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's Muggleborn/Cosmetics
In-Reply-To: <9c60oa+b43b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010425164057.72592.qmail@web14106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17678


--- ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:

>Hmmm. I can't recall anything in canon that really
>states that the Patil twins are muggleborn, or that
>they are not. 

I believe it was Pansy Parkinson during the flying
lesson in SS/PS that says something to Parvati to the
effect of 'I can't believe you are sticking up for a
fat crybaby' - (Not the exact quote)  This was when
the Gryffindors were having it out with the Slytherins
after the Neville/Draco/Remembral incident.  I am
assuming from Pansy's remark that the Patils and
Parkinsons know one another.

~Moey



=====
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"If I'd sprouted whiskers, I'd take a break from work."
  -Ron Weasley, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu  Wed Apr 25 17:36:21 2001
From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (Paul W. Hanbury, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:36:21 -0000
Subject: Skrewts & Boggarts
In-Reply-To: <20010424214933.13964.qmail@web14105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c71ul+6s8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., First Mate Mo <moey at s...> wrote:
> You forget that Blast-ended Skrewts are an entirely
> new breed of creature. Hagrid just bred them in time
> for Harry's fourth year. (see the chapter Rita
> Skeeter's Scoop in GoF) Therefore this new breed of
> creature wouldn't be in Harry's edition of Fantastic
> Beasts.  

You are absolutely correct along with the others who
pointed out my oversight.  Thanks much, folks!

Paul




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 25 17:50:45 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:50:45 -0000
Subject: Two Paradoxes that make my head swim...
In-Reply-To: <9c6ksq+691h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c72pl+n3lu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17680

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorband at u... wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm struggling with two instances that I just can't seem to come to 
> grips with...help me:
> 
> Paradox #1
> 

> wouldn't we then have Voldemort 
> and Riddle - two separate entities?  

At the time of CoS, Voldemort was still a disembodied spirit in 
Albanian exile, "barely alive" as Harry comments. Presumably a 
victory by Tom Riddle in the Chamber would have enabled Voldemort to 
enter into his 16-year-old body. I suppose that voldemort would then 
have, with characteristic ruthlessness, supplanted the spirit of Tom 
Riddle. 

> 
> Paradox #2
> 
> The nature and implications of the time-turner has always given me 
> fits

what you're describing is just inherent in any time-traveling 
fiction. Arthur C. Clarke once wrote that the dizzying paradoxes of 
time-travel prove that a Wayback Machine could never  be operational 
in reality. 


     - CMC




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Apr 25 19:20:52 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:20:52 -0000
Subject: No, penny hasn't had the baby yet (to our knowledge) but....
Message-ID: <9c782k+h1gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17681

We're planning to send a surprise to her when she does.
If you're interested in contributing to a Birth - Day present for her 
forthcoming baby, please email me OFFLIST at heidit at netbox.com so I 
can give you the details. 
We're planning to get two bears from the BuildABear Workshop - a 
HarryBear and a HermioneBead & when the bears are purchased, we'll 
upload pics of them so all of you can see...





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Apr 25 19:32:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:32:46 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] No, penny hasn't had the baby yet (to our knowledge) but....
References: <9c782k+h1gh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014f01c0cdbe$82233680$473670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17682

Heidi said:

Subject: [HPforGrownups] No, penny hasn't had the baby yet (to our
knowledge) but....

> We're planning to send a surprise to her when she does.
> If you're interested in contributing to a Birth - Day present for her
> forthcoming baby, please email me OFFLIST at heidit at netbox.com so I
> can give you the details.
> We're planning to get two bears from the BuildABear Workshop - a
> HarryBear and a HermioneBead & when the bears are purchased, we'll
> upload pics of them so all of you can see...

I'll just clarify, for those of you who don't know, that Penny Linsenmayer
is the owner of this wonderful list, and she is about to give birth to her
first child.  There will be the occasional OT message here, keeping you
informed of her progress.

Thanks

:-)

Neil
Moderator Team





From linman6868 at aol.com  Wed Apr 25 19:48:42 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:48:42 -0000
Subject: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
Message-ID: <9c79mq+todk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17683

Hello, all--

Discussing Harry, take 20...  Thanks to all who responded to my 
thoughts on Harry and Snape.  I concur with the people who were 
sympathetic with yet disturbed by Harry's momentary desire to give 
Snape the Cruciatus.  It was one of the things I was thinking of when 
I thought of the worst Snape brought out in Harry.  The best I was 
thinking of, well, it's a little more abstract--like the sense of 
focus Harry brings into his determination (the Janus face of his 
stubbornness) when defying Snape.  Think of Harry's magnified 
interest in protecting the Stone, because of his suspicion of Snape.  

Anyway, that's old news.  I was wondering further, after some people 
posted about why we're not talking about Harry as enthusiastically as 
Ron or Hermione, why this seems to be the case.  Someone (I forgot 
who) said it was because Harry is more boring than the rest of them.  
I don't exactly agree with this, but I can see why someone would say 
it.  Harry is our window into JKR's world, as well as the most 
important character in it.  When I look out of my eyes, I don't 
usually remember that they're hazel in color.  Harry's feelings, 
interests, even weaknesses are common currency to us, so we're not 
going to be paying attention to them so much as to the action around 
Harry, through whom we meet it.

Lisa, applauding Caius's new filks

____

Three foremost aids to persuasion which occur to me are humility, 
concentration, and gusto.  --Marianne Moore




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Apr 25 20:43:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:43:12 -0000
Subject: A Southern Baptist gives his opinion about HP
Message-ID: <9c7ct0+bvgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17684

The following letter is from a friend of mine from West Virginia. He 
is about as good a practicing Christian as anyone could ever hope to 
know. 

Although I would never expect him to become a member of HPFGU, 
neither did he set himself above those who enjoy the Harry Potter 
books. 

Hi Doreen;
 
Well, I just finished reading the last of the Harry Potter books 
(Goblet of Fire). I have had the book for a while but got sidetracked 
by the"Left Behind" series."Goblet of Fire was a bit longer than the 
others and in places moved a bit slower than the others, but still it 
was anb interesting book.I still find nothing in the books to get 
excited about. The later books do get somewhat dark, but the magic 
and spells and hexes are really quite amusing. 
 
I guess it is possible Rowling's treatment of witchcraft and sorcery 
as children's fantasy could desensitize children to the real thing. 
Someone once said that if you tell a big enough lie often enough and 
long enough; eventually people will start to believe it. Hitler was 
ample proof of the validity of that statement. I think what some 
parents may be afraid of is that witchcraft and sorcery may begin to 
look like nothing more than good clean fun. (this is the lie) If this 
should happen problems could crop up, but an adequate amount of old 
fashioned parental guidance would take care of that problem. 
Unfortunately, many parents today do not want to accept the 
responsibility for their children. Everything is the fault of the 
either school system they attend, the books they read, the church 
they attend, the other children they associate with, etc. While any 
or all of these things will undoubtedly have an influence on any 
child, it is still the parent who must help the child put all this 
together and make sense of it.
 
I do not agree with those who claim that anything which gets a child 
to read must be OK. That idea is positively absurd. There are any 
number of books on the market that I would not want my children (if I 
had any) reading because of the suggestive nature with which certain 
things are presented, things which could easily be tried. 
 
The Left Behind series I mentioned (also available in teen version) 
has had the same effect of getting children to read although due to 
its religious content, perhaps not as widely as the Potter series. 
Yet having read both, if asked which I preferred, I would choose the 
Left Behind books. But that is just my opinion and I will not be 
upset when people disagree.
 
So! To make a long story short, I can;'t really find anything to get 
worked up about over the books. They make for interesting reading 
even if not the best I have read. (I also prefer 
Tolkien's "Silmarillion" and "Lord of the Rings) Another book I found 
quite enjoyable was "Sarum"  (I can't remember the author's name) 
which is a fictionalized history of England.
 
Anyway, for whatever it's worth, that's my opinion.
hugs and smoochies
Brian
 





From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Apr 25 20:58:41 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:58:41 -0000
Subject: Rosmerta's Role  (was Re: MWPP Generation Women (was Rosebushes )
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010424203929.03ee7c60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9c7dq1+t52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17685

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 03:28 AM 4/25/01 +0000, Rosmerta wrote:
> >Whatever her age, Rosmerta certainly has enough mojo left in her to
> >make a 14-yr-old boy like Ron blush and go back for seconds, and if
> >you had the time to go back and read the lines describing her in 
PoA
> >and GoF (I don't or I'd do it for you), you'd see that besides (and
> >perhaps rivalling?) Fleur she is *hands-down* the most attractively
> >described woman in the books.
> 
> Besides which, since Wizards live longer than Muggles, I can
> easily see her still looking in her 20's well into her 40's and 
50's.

OK, OK, I never said she wasn't pretty. :) Point taken. I just was 
pointing out that she is *older* than the MWPP generation (I stand by 
that; I don't think she was a teenage barmaid). 

Lyda




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 25 21:22:10 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:22:10 -0400
Subject: Mecki Brings up good point...
Message-ID: <000201c0cdce$27d4fa00$06ca4e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17686

Mecki brings up a really good point. If Voldemort can come back with the remains of his father, why not anyone else with the remains of their relatives? Especially all those on Voldemort's side? The Blood,Flesh, and Bone spell seems to be a really nasty way of coming back but with all of what we read in GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up anyway.

Wanda The Witch


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 25 21:41:40 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:41:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: curse scars and cedric...
References: <9c6n10+abvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c0cdd0$84f7d520$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17687

Hi all...

I don't have my GOF brit edition with me (bought in Austria in early October of last year), but I do distinctly remember Fudge using the negation in the sentence currently being nitpicked. <g>  I've done a couple of close readings of that chapter and that just stuck in my head.
I'm assuming I have a later printing, due to the date/place of purchase, so based on all of that, I'm going to hazard the guess that someone goofed in the Brit First edition and it was corrected in later copies, like mine.

Abbie, with yet more knuts.  (Am I up to a sickle yet? <g>)
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nera at rconnect.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, 25 April, 2001 10:29 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: curse scars and cedric...


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:
  > Jill: <<<now, it's entirely possible that i'm reading it wrong, but 
  here
  > goes: ...the chapter entitled the parting of the ways -dumbledore 
  has just
  > told fudge everything, and fudge is questioning dumbledore's belief 
  in
  > harry...
  > "You'll forgive, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting 
  as an
  > alarm bell before..."
  > surely it should read i've NOT heard of a curse scar...in order to 
  prove
  > his point. or is he referring to someone elses curse scar?>>>
  > 
  > Catherine: <<< I've wondered about this as well, and as my editions 
  aren't
  > very recent, I can't check to see whether it has been changed. If 
  it is
  > written correctly, then it seems to me that Fudge is dismissing 
  something
  > he has had knowledge of - therefore he doesn't deem it to be of any
  > significance.  In which case - why?
  > I haven't been here for long myself, so I can't verify whether this 
  has
  > been discussed before.  However, IIRC, I don't think that it came 
  up in the
  > Chapter 36 discussions a few weeks ago?>>>
  > 
  > I have had a quick look through the archives and I believe this is 
  the
  > first mention of this. Also I cannot remember it having been picked 
  up
  > before now.
  > 
  > I am guessing that you both have an early UK printing of the book 
  (like
  > myself), as it seems to be correct in the US version (thanks to 
  Chloe for
  > that piece of information). It makes the whole exchange a lot more
  > interesting, but is unfortunately almost certainly a simple mistype.
  > 
  > 
  > Jill: <<<While i'm here, somthing else i noticed:(these have 
  probably
  > already been mentioned, or else i'm just
  > stupid!) In the graveyard,when cedric dies:
  > "From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice 
  say, 'kill the
  > spare.' A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the 
  words to
  > the night:'Avada kedavra!'
  > Now, assuming V is the 1st voice, as wormtail is hardly in a 
  position to
  > give orders (&he's often referred to as having a high voice) who is 
  the 2nd
  > voice?wormtail/pettigrew????????if so, that means cedric shouldn't 
  have
  > come out of v's wand. Unless wormtail used v's wand of course, or v 
  did do
  > the killing. i don't know!>>>
  > 
  > I believe that you are correct in your assumption that Wormtail 
  sends the
  > curse to kill Cedric using Voldemort's wand.
  > 
  > 
  > Again, welcome to the group.
  > 
  > 
  > Simon


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From monaburns at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 22:29:35 2001
From: monaburns at mediaone.net (Mona)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:29:35 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8E27@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9c7j4f+r022@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17688





Hi I am Mona and have been lurking here for a while but  had to 
coment about  the  following  concern:> 
> > 
> > i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and 
his 
> > scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > please go to this site 
> > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> > look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me 

I can't immagine that JKR would allow such a major change to take 
place.  My understanding is that she is on the set overseeing the 
movie and thus book five is late or will be late. 




From monaburns at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 22:29:32 2001
From: monaburns at mediaone.net (Mona)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:29:32 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8E27@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9c7j4c+fgkj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17689





Hi I am Mona and have been lurking here for a while but  had to 
coment about  the  following  concern:> 
> > 
> > i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and 
his 
> > scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > please go to this site 
> > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> > look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me 

I can't immagine that JKR would allow such a major change to take 
place.  My understanding is that she is on the set overseeing the 
movie and thus book five is late or will be late. 




From pgonzale at nd.edu  Wed Apr 25 22:29:38 2001
From: pgonzale at nd.edu (Philip Gonzales)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:29:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mecki Brings up good point...
References: <000201c0cdce$27d4fa00$06ca4e0c@s1p9c3>
Message-ID: <000701c0cdd7$3778cbe0$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17690

Sounds possible. But what if there's also a specific couterspell to that one? Perhaps with a different combination of items unknowingly, willingly, and forcibly given?

Pottermaniac

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roy & Wanda Mallett 
  To: Harry Potter fgu 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 4:22 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mecki Brings up good point...


  Mecki brings up a really good point. If Voldemort can come back with the remains of his father, why not anyone else with the remains of their relatives? Especially all those on Voldemort's side? The Blood,Flesh, and Bone spell seems to be a really nasty way of coming back but with all of what we read in GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up anyway.

  Wanda The Witch


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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  From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

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From monaburns at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 22:41:33 2001
From: monaburns at mediaone.net (Mona)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:41:33 -0000
Subject: Lupin
Message-ID: <9c7jqt+l9gn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17691

I also have  two small queerys that may or may not have come up for 
discussion before. If it has I do appoligize in advance.

Remus Lupin(whom I feel is the perfect man  and if he were a real 
person I don't know what I would do. lol)  

My question  is  do you feel that  Snape hates Lupin because of  a) 
association with Black and Potter or b) because of his prejudgice due 
to his  wolfishness/disability?   I personally feel that  it  has 
nothing to do with the joke that  Black played on Snape  but  
something else hopefully to be developed later.

 Anyhow,I would love to see him brought back in book five and more 
fully developed with a love interest.

Harry needs some younger man other than black redily accessible to 
help him grow up. Currently, Ron's father serves some of that purpose 
but I feel he needs his "own family".  What has (if anything) been 
said on that subjcet? 




From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Wed Apr 25 23:26:58 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:26:58 -0000
Subject: Mecki Brings up good point...
In-Reply-To: <000201c0cdce$27d4fa00$06ca4e0c@s1p9c3>
Message-ID: <9c7mg2+mj5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17692

Wanda wrote:
>If Voldemort can come back with the remains of his father, why not 
>anyone else with the remains of their relatives? Especially all 
>those on Voldemort's side? The Blood,Flesh, and Bone spell seems to 
>be a really nasty way of coming back but with all of what we read in 
>GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up anyway.

Voldemort repeatedly refers to spells and other measures he took 
prior to his downfall to ensure his immortality. I think it is most 
likely that the blood, flesh and bone potion was the completion of 
this process, and hence it would only work if the person had taken 
these steps before their demise.


Dai




From monaburns at mediaone.net  Wed Apr 25 23:33:05 2001
From: monaburns at mediaone.net (Mona)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:33:05 -0000
Subject: Two things....real quick
In-Reply-To: <12FF97A3C29@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <9c7mrh+10b78@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17693

Hello again,
I wish to thank Rachel for her previous comment:

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> First off, why are you guys taking Abanes's bait?  He wants to have 
> an argument over something that will never be settled on common 
> grounds.  I'm just doing what I do with all other Christians that 
> embarrass me to be grouped with - ignoring him.  There's nothing 
> wrong with reading Harry Potter.  We all know that.  Evil isn't in 
the 
> pages of the book.  If there is any evil, it's in the heart of the 
person 
> finding it.  So everyone take a deep breath, shake your head in 
> disgust and let him go on his (un)merry little way.
> 
She gets a  real BIG THUMS UP from me!!!! 
I could not have said it better!!!  I have read his first post  and 
completely ignoring  all others and related ones.

Mona from Massachusetts (a hevily Irish Catholic State)




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 23:58:29 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:58:29 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <9c4mpk+9j2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c7ob5+upnf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17694

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and
> his scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> please go to this site 
> http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me
> that i am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this detail.

Based on the other pictures I've seen, I'd have to say that that
thing is his hair.


> a fellow hp fan has looked at this pic and agreed with me, she
> said, 'it looks like they just thought, damn, we cant see the scar
> because  of his fring, oh well, we'll just move it!'

No, that's silly.  That's why we have *barbers*.  :^)


On the other hand, I am a little annoyed that Dudley is no longer a
blond (which I'm pretty sure is established in the first chapter of
SS), as you can clearly see in the photo at this link:

<a 
href="http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.jsp?
id=Exclusive+Letter+Photo">Letter scene photo</a>

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 00:02:04 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:02:04 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <9c7ob5+upnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c7ohs+uppj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17695

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> > AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and
> > his scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > please go to this site 
> > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> > look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me
> > that i am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this 
detail.
> 
> Based on the other pictures I've seen, I'd have to say that that
> thing is his hair.
> 
> 
> > a fellow hp fan has looked at this pic and agreed with me, she
> > said, 'it looks like they just thought, damn, we cant see the scar
> > because  of his fring, oh well, we'll just move it!'
> 
> No, that's silly.  That's why we have *barbers*.  :^)
> 
> 
> On the other hand, I am a little annoyed that Dudley is no longer a
> blond (which I'm pretty sure is established in the first chapter of
> SS), as you can clearly see in the photo at this link:

The link is supposed to be altogether but I can't get it to stay:

http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.jsp?
id=Exclusive+Letter+Photo

....Craig




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 00:35:30 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death Eater resurrections
In-Reply-To: <000701c0cdd7$3778cbe0$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <20010426003530.32538.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17696

Wanda wrote:
>   Mecki brings up a really good point. If Voldemort
> can come back with the remains of his father, why
> not anyone else with the remains of their relatives?
> Especially all those on Voldemort's side? The
> Blood,Flesh, and Bone spell seems to be a really
> nasty way of coming back but with all of what we
> read in GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up
> anyway.

Hmm...well, I think Voldie was really a special case. 
He wasn't *dead*, per se, just not fully human any
more.  His mind and "essence" existed in the little
mutant baby form, and before that in the creatures he
possessed.  So for a DE who's actually *dead* (or
soulless, like Crouch Jr.), I don't think it would
work.  It's more of transferring a person's essence to
a new body than an actual resurrection, IMO.


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 01:09:19 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:09:19 -0000
Subject: Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
In-Reply-To: <9c6qc8+sr7o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c7sfv+eiso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17697

Mecki wrote:
"Voldemort returned to life, after taking the "bone fo the father" 
(paraphrasing).When Crouch jr. had killed his father, he turned him 
into a bone and buried him. Could that mean, that V. has a 
possibility to renew the soul-less Crouch with the same potion he 
used to renew his body? Any Ideas?
"I do believe we will see crouch jr. again."

Doreen wrote:
"Very interesting point, and just the kind of hint that JKR writes 
that we go back and look at *after* JKR explains it to us via 
Dumbledore at the end of the books."

--Hmmm...I don't think that's likely at all. It's a good point, but 
Crouch's body doesn't need restoration does it? The body itself is 
perfectly healthy and fine, except for the fact that it lacks a soul. 
(The idea is really disturbing. *shudders*) 

Which leads me to a question about Dementor-kissed bodies. What 
happens to them? I'd imagine that they go to St. Mungo's where they 
are cared for and fed until they die. It doesn't sound like a 
reversible condition so I'd think that once you're gone you're gone. 
However I don't doubt that Harry will meet Crouch Jr. again. Maybe 
he'll encounter his body in an infirmary of St. Mungo's if he ever 
ventures there.

Scott





From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 26 01:37:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:37:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
References: <9c7sfv+eiso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE77BBC.A4788F11@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17698

Scott wrote:

> Which leads me to a question about Dementor-kissed bodies. What
> happens to them? I'd imagine that they go to St. Mungo's where they
> are cared for and fed until they die. It doesn't sound like a
> reversible condition so I'd think that once you're gone you're gone.
> However I don't doubt that Harry will meet Crouch Jr. again. Maybe
> he'll encounter his body in an infirmary of St. Mungo's if he ever
> ventures there.

Didn't somebody suggest, lo these many moons ago, that it is from Kiss
victims that new Dementors are made? Because Lupin says something like
the person kissed becomes "like the Dementors," soul-less (or something
to that effect). I think this is likely. Creepy, but likely.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Apr 26 01:38:29 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:38:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
References: <9c7sfv+eiso@eGroups.com> <3AE77BBC.A4788F11@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AE77C15.90F379EB@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17699

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Real-To:  Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
>
> Scott wrote:
>
> > Which leads me to a question about Dementor-kissed bodies. What
> > happens to them? I'd imagine that they go to St. Mungo's where they
> > are cared for and fed until they die. It doesn't sound like a
> > reversible condition so I'd think that once you're gone you're gone.
> > However I don't doubt that Harry will meet Crouch Jr. again. Maybe
> > he'll encounter his body in an infirmary of St. Mungo's if he ever
> > ventures there.
>
> Didn't somebody suggest, lo these many moons ago, that it is from Kiss
> victims that new Dementors are made? Because Lupin says something like
> the person kissed becomes "like the Dementors," soul-less (or something
> to that effect). I think this is likely. Creepy, but likely.
>

I did post about this at one point, and I still think it might be possible, but Fantastic Beasts gave me some food for thought on this.
Dementors are not in the book.
I hope they're not beings (I don't think they are because they don't talk, do they?), but since they're not mentioned in the book, it doesn't seem like things with the name *dementors* are beasts.
Of course they could be spirits, but if not, Dementors might be Lethifolds, which are warded off with the patronus, or they could be, as we discussed, soulless humans.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Thu Apr 26 02:02:21 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:02:21 -0000
Subject: Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
In-Reply-To: <3AE77BBC.A4788F11@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9c7vjd+7o74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17700

> Scott wrote: Which leads me to a question about Dementor-kissed 
bodies. What happens to them? I'd imagine that they go to St. Mungo's 
where they are cared for and fed until they die...
> 
And Amanda wrote, Didn't somebody suggest, lo these many moons ago, 
that it is from Kiss victims that new Dementors are made? 

Either way, they'd make a wonderful night-of-the-living-dead army if 
Voldemort cared to call them all together. (And they could have some 
great names: The Kissed Krusaders etc. etc.). It's entirely plausible 
they could be the soulless foot soliders of the Dementors in some end-
of-the-world battle scenario. (And then what? The good guys get some 
super-soulful allies to bring them all back to life? Hermione dredges 
up a charm that makes the Dementors barf up all the souls they've 
consumed? The possibilities are endless...)

~Rosmerta




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 02:23:59 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:23:59 -0000
Subject: Apology
Message-ID: <9c80rv+3bq2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17701

I know we aren't supposed to continue the Richard Abanes thread but 
in and off-list e-mail he asked me to post this. Do not flame me! 
These are his words and you can take them for what they are...

Richard Abanes wrote:
"I am beginning to see that this HARRY POTTER issue is a very
emotionally charged subject for all parties concerned. Moreover, 
discussing the issue tends to very easily spill over into closely 
related emotionally charged areas of life for people (i.e., religion, 
Christianity, intelligence, literary taste, church history, alternate 
forms of religious expression, personal beliefs, etc.). These only 
bring more emotions to the surface as responses quickly degenerate 
into personal attacks that are probably motivated by past 
experiences, prior wounds, and insecurities. I INCLUDE MYSELF among 
those affected.
        
In response to your thoughtful e-mail, I extend to you and to the
others on the HP fan board my sincere apologies for any statements 
that may have sounded harsh, unloving, unChristian, and/or rude. I am 
only human and very subject to my own sinfulness, weaknesses, 
prejudices, and lack of communication skills. I cannot help but think 
that if all of us could have sat down somewhere for a little pie and 
coffee, that everything would have gone much better.  I am not 
perfect -- FAR from it (ask my wife, she'll be glad to tell you 
that). Again, I apologize, and do hope that my actions have
not further soured the image many of the board readers apparently 
have of Christianity. Any errors I made in communication where mine 
alone -- not Christ's.  By the way, as a result of the last few days, 
I am contemplating not participating in online discussions of this 
kind in the future. Since I do not wish to increase the difficulty of 
the situation, I would ask that you post this response I have 
written, in hopes that others will be more inclined to read it from a 
fellow HP fan rather than simply ignoring it because it comes from 
me. I do want others to receive my apology. Since teh ADMIN has ended 
the thread, you may have to clear one last post withhim/her."

Whatever you take from this statement is fine, and I hope I don't get 
in trouble for posting it.

Thanks,
Sott




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Thu Apr 26 02:27:14 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:27:14 -0000
Subject: Quidditch (Filk)
Message-ID: <9c8122+nfvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17702

All righty. As an avid song-parodist myself, I've finally decided to 
post my little filk. Since it is Harry Fortnight, I decided that this 
should be appropriate, as it describes the scene in which Harry 
learns how to play Quidditch. 

For those of you who are familiar with "The Phantom of the Opera", 
then let me explain who is singing what part. The song "Prima Donna" 
is sung in a very opera-ish way, with several different parts sung 
simultaneously. In any case, Fred George, and Oliver are singing the 
parts of Andre/Firmin, Harry sings the Carlotta parts, Angelina sings 
Raoul's notes, Katie Bell has the parts where Madame Giry sings, and 
Alicia Spinnet sings where Meg Giry would. If you are really 
confused, go to http://www.ilflauto.f2s.com/musicals.php3 that should 
help you out; click the link to read the lyrics. You can listen to a 
MIDI form of the music too, but it should be know that the music 
starts at the first "Quidditch, Quidditch" line, and includes mainly 
the integral melody. I wrote the "Quidditch" lyrics based on the 
libretto, so everything is in the exact same spot. OK, I'm going to 
stop talking now.

This is much longer than most other filks I've seen, but...ehh.

"Quidditch"
-- to the tune of "Prima Donna" from the Musical "The Phantom of The 
Opera" (now retitled "The Potter of the Quidditch Field")

Oliver: The Gryffindors need you...

Fred: We need you too...

Harry: But I don't know what a Seeker is
supposed to do!

Oliver/Fred/George: Harry, we,
can te-each you...
Quidditch, Quidditch
the sport that wizards love!
We fly so high
up in the sky 
on our broomsticks!

Oliver: You can be there with us
crowds shout your name!

Fred/George: We can show you all of our best tricks!

Oliver/Fred/George: Quidditch, Quidditch
the sport that's so much fun!
We need one more
Player just for
our complete team!
Can you deny us the triumph in store?
Yes, that's what Quidditch is for!

Angelina: We shall show you how to play...

Harry: Quidditch, Quidditch
I can't believe it's true!

Fred/George: This here's a bludger!

Harry: I've got some talent
And now I've been sent
to play with you!

Katie: This ball is the Quaffle
and we use it to score...

Oliver/Fred/George: McGonagall said you're
A natural Seeker!

Harry: I'll listen as you show
me what to do...

Angelina: The Seeker is the most important...

Fred: (to George) We'll get the House Cup!

George: (to Fred) We'll have the limelight!

Harry: Please explain the game
and what I'll do!

Alicia: The Slytherins
will lose to us for once!

Angelina: Lose to us for once!

Fred/George: We've got the greatest team!

Oliver: Quidditch, Quiditch
there's seven players here!

Alicia: You know that you'll be our star!

Katie: We'll help you
figure out...

Oliver: With four positions
No inhibitions
and three kinds of balls!

Angelina: Flying! Diving!
Tossing different balls!

Katie: This game is the most
fun you'll know...

Fred/George: Swerving... turning...
Tossing different balls
are regular occurences!

Alicia: Fun or triumph?
Which will claim you?

Oliver: As Seeker, your job 
is to capture
the Snitch!
And end the match of 
Quidditch!

Katie: Oh, Harry,
we know you can do it!

Angelina: 150 points...

Alicia: 150 points...

Fred/George: 150 points to the team that 
gets the Snitch!

Katie: Then the points
will help get the House Cup!

Angelina: This year you
will help get the House Cup!

Alicia: And our team
will help get the House Cup!

Angelina/Katie/Alicia: We three are the Chasers
On broomsticks we're the racers
across the field we fly
to score points for our side
We toss that big red Quaffle
Past the Keepers awful
into the three gold rings
Ten points each shot brings!

Oliver: We Keepers guard the goal posts!

Harry: Kind of like 
basketball
On broomsticks?

Fred/George: We both are the beaters
Our vengeance is sweeter
T'ward opponents we whack
the bludgers with a smack
to knock them off their broom
And give ourselves more room
for you to capture
the Snitch!

Angelina: Then the game is over...

Katie: This is a game
we so hope to win...

Oliver: Harry, what is this 
`basketball' thing, then?

Katie: For now our team
is better than it's been!

Alicia: And now our team 
is better than it's been!

Oliver/Fred/George: Quidditch, Quidditch
so now you know the game!
And now you'll train
It's quite a pain
But it's worth it!

Harry: So then I'm the Seeker
Oliver's the Keeper
Fred and George are beaters
Three are Chasers, speeders.
You all try to score
While I keep an eye for
the golden ball called
the Snitch!

Katie/Alicia: We hope for the best outcome...

Angelina: Harry, you've got it now
You understand the game!

Katie: ... a first-class Seeker...

Alicia: ...once you've practiced...

All: We'll win the House Cup
with every Snitch!
And triumph in our
Quidditch!




From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 26 02:46:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:46:26 -0500
Subject: Quidditch Question from the Spouse
Message-ID: <3AE78C01.1FA5903A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17703

My beloved, who is dutifully *crawling* his way through book 1, has
appeared at my elbow with another unanswerable. Heidi and I put our
heads together and didn't know. So I decided to ask the list.

On Quidditch. Jan came in and asked if players are allowed to *hold* the
Quaffle. Heidi and I found the passage in QTA that indicates they do (p.
20), covering the older quaffles with holding straps, and how the new
ones have Gripping Charms. So they clearly hold it.

So then he asks if they hold it away from their bodies, or do they
"tuck" it under an arm? And if the latter, how can it be "taken" from
them by other players?

He says his mental image is one of soccer, where players pass the ball
from one to the other as they run down the field. In that case, taking
it is a matter of getting it when it's between players. But if the
Quaffle is held by one player while he/she zooms down the field, how
(other than pitching a bludger at them and making them drop it) does
another player take it?

Heidi then came back with the thought that she figured that if the
ball-carrier was blocked by another player, he or she must then throw it
to another. But Jan's been a pilot, and is familiar with thinking in
three dimensions. He said he could see how to block on a level plane,
but how could you do it effectively in the air?

I said that might be one reason Chasers were agile. But it was a good
observation and I wanted the opinions of Those Who Have Played Stuff,
maybe Those Who Have Flown Planes, and see what you all thought.

So--any thoughts on how the Quaffle could be taken, if it's being held
by one player during flight, and not passed among several?
Any thoughts on how one could effectively block a Quaffle-carrier in a
three-dimensional situation?
Anything revealed in an interview or chat that I don't know about, that
goes into Heidi's thought that a blocked player must throw the Quaffle?
Any other thoughts that this line of thinking led to?

Okay, that's it. I *did* tell him to read carefully. [Of course, I also
tell him to do the dishes; we take what we can get.]

--Amanda




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 02:56:43 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:56:43 -0000
Subject: Mirror of Erised Musings
Message-ID: <9c82pb+at5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17704

Oh dear! In my last message I spelt my name 'Sott'. How embarrassing 
is that?!? *blushes*

I have been thinking about the Mirror of Erised lately and a few 
questions came to mind. 

Firstly, when Harry finds the mirror of Erised in the empty classroom 
what is gaurding the stone? Dumbledore was taking a big risk by 
removing it, since we assume he didn't know who was trying to steal 
it or when. If fact this lends itself to the idea that Dumbledore did 
know Harry would go after the stone as he was obviously setting him 
up for a later battle. But does that mean that maybe he knew who was 
going after it. He couldn't have known Voldy was inhabiting Quirell 
and allowed it?!?!

Secondly, how is that Harry in the Quirell scene was able to see 
himself getting the stone and not his family again. How is it that 
the rules could change so that the mirror showed the desire relevant 
to the task at hand and not his true desire for family.

Scott




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 03:07:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 03:07:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Full Moon
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08B1@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9c83cl+nt1u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17705

Gwen wrote:

>In these paragons of horror films (note my tongue firmly wedged in 
my cheek,
>here), it is a constant plot point that Joe Wolf goes from mild-
mannered,
>clean-shaven guy-next-door to Fuzzface el Supremo every time the 
moon peeks
>out from a cloud. Invariably, this is when Scooby and Shaggy will 
see him,
>but by the time they get Daphne and Velma and Fred, the clouds cover 
the
>moon again, and Wolfie-boy is no longer hairy, so no one believes 
them.

Wow, I'd forgotten those!  I did watch I Was a Teenage Werewolf the 
other day (on Mystery Science Theater 3000--I could never get through 
an un-MSTed version) and I realized an odd thing about this and other 
movie werewolves:  they don't look like wolves, with a long snout and 
all.  They just look like very hairy people with fangs, in this case 
Michael Landon.  He also wears a track suit throughout his 
transformation, oddly enough.  May I say that our Lupin would never 
be so tacky.

But I digress.

I really do think JKR is committing a flint here, or at least is 
mangling her own rules of lycanthropy in order to make her plot 
work.  It just doesn't work that Lupin only transforms when actually 
exposed to the moon.  Otherwise he could just hole up in his office 
one night a month and never suffer again--heck, he could spend the 
time playing pinochle and have a grand old time.  Then all of us 
Lupinlovers who just can't resist a soulful, suffering man would pine 
away.

Or are you proposing that even if he's indoors, if the moon is out, 
he's a wolf, and if the moon is behind a cloud, he goes back to being 
a man?  That also doesn't seem to be what JKR is suggesting; once he 
transforms, he's a wolf until the moon goes down.  I wonder if she 
noticed that she'd backed herself into a corner, or did she just 
wander into DaphneFredVelmaLand and not notice the inconsistency with 
the rest of her system?

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
 Bumper sticker I'd like to see:  My other car is a Firebolt
-------------------------------------------------------------




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 26 03:14:05 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:14:05 -0400
Subject: BABY LINSENMAYER
Message-ID: <009001c0cdfe$f49d2320$5c57d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17706

Exerpts from an email I just got from Penny's husband:

**********************

Hi all!  Elizabeth Grace made her entrance tonight around 6:00 p.m. -
she and mom are doing great.  She weighs right at 8 pounds and is
clearly superior in every way (although we are somewhat biased).

She and mom did very well, though, and are expected to be in Texas Women's
until
Saturday.  Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, prayers and good
wishes - we'll send pictures soon (when daddy figures out how to use the
scanner - the computer is clearly mommy's domain).   -Bryce

****************************

Yahoo ...where's the champagne!

Does anyone know the email address of the Texas Women's unit?  Just kidding!

Carole





From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Apr 26 03:13:34 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:13:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Question from the Spouse
In-Reply-To: <3AE78C01.1FA5903A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010425231334.00a0b4fc@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17707

At 09:46 PM 4/25/01 -0500, you wrote:
>So--any thoughts on how the Quaffle could be taken, if it's being held
>by one player during flight, and not passed among several?
>Any thoughts on how one could effectively block a Quaffle-carrier in a
>three-dimensional situation?

I think that, if a player really wanted to, he or she could hang on to the
Quaffle, fly right up to the goal, and try to toss it in. But Quidditch
being the rather intense contact sport that it is, the player would become
the main target of two bludgers, three (?) opponent chasers, and if
tensions are running high, maybe yet another two beaters mistaking the
player's head for a bludger. 

Along with these 'personal' considerations, there would also be an element
of strategy, where the person carrying the Quaffle would draw the attention
of most of those on the opposing team, and a good pass to a well-positioned
fellow chaser may be the best way to score.

An opponent could the conceivably repossess the Quaffle by a) tackling the
chaser, or just snatching it out of their arms, b)
hitting/startling/disorienting the person with a bludger so that he or she
would drop it or be more vulnerable to a tackle, or c) intercepting the
Quaffle during a pass.

Samaporn



From bafoster at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 26 03:22:16 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:22:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] BABY LINSENMAYER
References: <009001c0cdfe$f49d2320$5c57d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3AE7946A.4BC25188@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17708

What great news!!  Please tell Penny we're all thinking about her. :)

Barbara :)

Carole Estes wrote:
> 
> Exerpts from an email I just got from Penny's husband:
> 
> **********************
> 
> Hi all!  Elizabeth Grace made her entrance tonight around 6:00 p.m. -
> she and mom are doing great.  She weighs right at 8 pounds and is
> clearly superior in every way (although we are somewhat biased).
> 
> She and mom did very well, though, and are expected to be in Texas
> Women's
> until
> Saturday.  Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, prayers and good
> wishes - we'll send pictures soon (when daddy figures out how to use
> the
> scanner - the computer is clearly mommy's domain).   -Bryce
> 
> ****************************
> 
> Yahoo ...where's the champagne!
> 
> Does anyone know the email address of the Texas Women's unit?  Just
> kidding!
> 
> Carole
> 
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [www.debticated.com]
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
> the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
> through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From litalex at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 03:31:12 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:31:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mirror of Erised Musings
References: <9c82pb+at5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d201c0ce01$586b73a0$2211eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17709

Hello,

> Secondly, how is that Harry in the Quirell scene was able to see
> himself getting the stone and not his family again. How is it that
> the rules could change so that the mirror showed the desire relevant
> to the task at hand and not his true desire for family.

Maybe his desire for 'making the world a safe place' overrode his desire to
see his family.

little Alex




From mdartagnan at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 03:36:12 2001
From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 03:36:12 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Full Moon
In-Reply-To: <9c83cl+nt1u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c853c+t4or@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17710

Hello. ^^


Amy Z wrote:

> It just doesn't work that Lupin only transforms when actually 
> exposed to the moon. 

<snip>

> Or are you proposing that even if he's indoors, if the moon is out, 
> he's a wolf, and if the moon is behind a cloud, he goes back to being 
> a man? 


I've just came up with a theory. It's full of holes, but... 

We know Remus transforms into a wolf regardless if he's indoors or 
outdoors. He claimed that, thanks to the Wolfsbane Potion, he turns 
into a harmless wolf and stays inside his office. I can't recall if the 
windows of the Shrieking Shack were covered as well. 

The only thing that *might* explain why on PoA he transforms into a 
wolf until the moonlight touches him might be the time at which the 
change takes place. Maybe when he's indoors, the change takes place 
until the Lunar influence is just too strong to be avoided ?maybe when 
the Moon reaches its zenith (eh... is this word well written?) or 
something like that. But being directly exposed to moonlight might 
trigger an immediate change ?something Remus clearly forgot after many 
Full Moon indoors, or maybe he thought the night would remain cloudy 
for still some hours.

I told you this theory was full of holes. Maybe the change had 
something to do with the wolfsbane potion, as many fanfics suggest, or 
it's just a Flint. But it's fun to speculate.


Misbehave,
Marijose


"I don't break rules. I bend them ?a lot."
Autobot Sideswipe, and then me.













From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Thu Apr 26 03:37:33 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:37:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mirror of Erised Musings
In-Reply-To: <9c82pb+at5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010425233733.00a0a6d0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17711

At 02:56 AM 4/26/01 -0000, you wrote:

>Firstly, when Harry finds the mirror of Erised in the empty classroom 
>what is gaurding the stone? Dumbledore was taking a big risk by 
>removing it, since we assume he didn't know who was trying to steal 
>it or when. If fact this lends itself to the idea that Dumbledore did 
>know Harry would go after the stone as he was obviously setting him 
>up for a later battle. But does that mean that maybe he knew who was 
>going after it. He couldn't have known Voldy was inhabiting Quirell 
>and allowed it?!?!

Perhaps the stone was not hidden in the Mirror until it was moved into the
guarded passage later on (Dumbledore did tell Harry on his last visit that
the Mirror was to be move, and that Harry should not try to look for it).
Dumbledore may have held on to the stone in the meantime. Or, perhaps
Dumbledore -was- personally guarding it ... he was aware that Harry had
been visiting the Mirror and knew what both Harry and Ron saw on their
visit together.

>Secondly, how is that Harry in the Quirell scene was able to see 
>himself getting the stone and not his family again. How is it that 
>the rules could change so that the mirror showed the desire relevant 
>to the task at hand and not his true desire for family.

His wish to be part of a family may one of Harry's deepest desires, but it
doesn't mean that it is his only true one. Upon coming unexpectedly
face-to-face with Voldemort and the possibility of his return, I believe
that the intensity and gravity of the situation was such that his strongest
desire at that moment was to protect the stone at all costs.

Samaporn 




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 03:39:43 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:39:43 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: "Elvish Is King!" - meet our new List Elves
Message-ID: <029401c0ce02$88ffdd20$8c3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17712

## Resounding thunder clap and puff of green smoke..##

Flying Ford Anglia steps through the fug wearing a quilted, lilac smoking
jacket and Muggle crash helmet marked "Boyracer".

Attention list members...

At the risk of triggering an uprising in the SPEW faction, your Magical
Moderators have hired a team of List Elves to help Newbies find their feet
on the list.  It will be the Elves' duty to greet new members and become
their trusted Elf Friend. Aware from the glare of the list, they will hold
hands, give tips, point at files and offer support - all for nine Knuts a
week, a sack on the floor and all the tripe they can eat.

With the help of the List Elves, Newbies should have no trouble avoiding the
bolder forces of Madam Linsenmayer, Professor Flanagan, Warlock Walton,
and - ahem - my good self.  Every new member will be assigned a personal Elf
and may find one sitting on their bed, looking rather unfortunate, and
wringing their hands.  Don't be alarmed.  They are there to guide you, not
to chide you.

The List Elves have their own perfectly adequate quarters
thank-you-very-much in the Disused Dungeon.  All *new* members requiring
assistance should knock three times on the oak door marked:
hp4guelves at yahoo.com

And now, if I may, a short verse in merry medieval song ## clears throat ##

"Cats have nine lives
And we have nine elves
So, here they all are
(They'll intro themselves)"

LIST ELVES

Heidi Tandy (Elf Mom) - Elf Heidy
Rainy Lilac (Suzanne) - Elf Rainy
Joy (not Joywitch, the other Joy) - Elf Joysy
Amy Z (not Amy A, Amy B, Amy C etc) - Elf Aimey
Simon (the man of many parts) - Elf Simey
Michelle Apostolides - Elf Shelly
Jen Faulkner - Elf Jenny
Amanda Lewanski - Elf Mandy
Kelley Thompson - Elf Kelly

... and don't they look as cute as ninepence in their assorted pillowcases,
tea towels and old socks?

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 03:54:16 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:54:16 +0100
Subject: X-POST: Congratulations to Penny and Bryce - the baby is here!
Message-ID: <02d601c0ce04$91454180$8c3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17713

I'm delighted to pass on snippets from a message that Carole received from
Bryce (Penny's husband):

<<Elizabeth Grace made her entrance tonight [Weds] around 6:00 p.m. -
she and mom are doing great.  She weighs right at 8 pounds and is
clearly superior in every way (although we are somewhat biased).

She and mom did very well, though, and are expected to be in Texas Women's
until Saturday.  Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, prayers and good
wishes - we'll send pictures soon (when daddy figures out how to use the
scanner - the computer is clearly mommy's domain).

-Bryce>>

Penny on a computer?  Never heard of such a thing!

Join me in a cybertoast to the new family... "To Penny, Bryce and Elizabeth
Grace". Hic!

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 03:55:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 03:55:03 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Question from the Spouse
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010425231334.00a0b4fc@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9c866n+niv9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17714

Samaporn wrote:

> I think that, if a player really wanted to, he or she could hang on 
to the
> Quaffle, fly right up to the goal, and try to toss it in. But 
Quidditch
> being the rather intense contact sport that it is, the player would 
become
> the main target of two bludgers, three (?) opponent chasers, and if
> tensions are running high, maybe yet another two beaters mistaking 
the
> player's head for a bludger. 
> 
> Along with these 'personal' considerations, there would also be an 
element
> of strategy, where the person carrying the Quaffle would draw the 
attention
> of most of those on the opposing team, and a good pass to a well-
positioned
> fellow chaser may be the best way to score.
> 
> An opponent could the conceivably repossess the Quaffle by a) 
tackling the
> chaser, or just snatching it out of their arms, b)
> hitting/startling/disorienting the person with a bludger so that he 
or she
> would drop it or be more vulnerable to a tackle, or c) intercepting 
the
> Quaffle during a pass.

Re: (a), you can take the Quaffle but you can't tackle (rule 4, p 28 
of QTA).

I do get the impression that even though one is allowed to carry the 
Quaffle all over the pitch, the Quaffle mainly moves along via passes 
(I'm thinking of the impressive Irish Chasers at the QWC).  So you 
get a lot of opportunities to intercept.

I see Jan's point about how hard it would be to actually wrest the 
Quaffle from an opponent (of course, he flies in planes, doesn't he?  
It's probably a sight easier when it's just your body and a broom).  
I think Samaporn's got the strategic (and safety, LOL) issues down 
perfectly.  One thing that would make it even harder to hold onto the 
ball and play a "running" (flying) rather than a "passing" game, to 
use a USfootball analogy, would be if the Bludgers tended to head for 
whoever had the Quaffle.  This is not the case, however--QTA says 
that unless directed otherwise by the Beaters, they go for the 
nearest player.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------
 "I thought it sounded a bit like Percy 
 singing.  Maybe you've got to attack him 
 while he's in the shower, Harry."
            --HP and the Goblet of Fire
------------------------------------------






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 04:03:29 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:03:29 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] BABY LINSENMAYER
References: <009001c0cdfe$f49d2320$5c57d63f@oemcomputer> <3AE7946A.4BC25188@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <02fa01c0ce05$da63b620$8c3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17715

I'm sorry about that double announcement, folks!  Carole's original message
to *this* list still hasn't appeared in my in box.  The wonders of Yahoo's
delivery system!

But, hey, good news is worth repeating (he said, following an OT, not really
necessary one-liner.. oh, what a hypocrite!)

Neil slides off...





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 04:21:31 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:21:31 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Apology (re: recent discussions with Richard Abanes)
References: <9c80rv+3bq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <031b01c0ce08$5f9f27a0$8c3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17716

Scott said:

> I know we aren't supposed to continue the Richard Abanes thread but
> in and off-list e-mail he asked me to post this. Do not flame me!
> These are his words and you can take them for what they are...

<snipped Richard Abanes' recent post to Scott - refer back for full text>

Thank you, Scott!  Also, thanks to everyone, including Richard, for
observing the decision to end that thread, and to some of you for
well-reasoned messages sent off list.

There are good lessons to be learned here, in how words on a page can
portray us differently than we might wish.  In an internet forum, it's very
easy for the worst aspects of a thread to grow wings and bury the good
points beneath.

Moral: Choose your words carefully or they will follow you like a shadow...

Neil, feeling a touch philosophical
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Apr 26 04:46:22 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:46:22 -0000
Subject: Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
In-Reply-To: <9c7sfv+eiso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c896u+ru6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17717

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Mecki wrote:
> "Voldemort returned to life, after taking the "bone fo the father" 
> (paraphrasing).When Crouch jr. had killed his father, he turned him 
> into a bone and buried him. Could that mean, that V. has a 
> possibility to renew the soul-less Crouch with the same potion he 
> used to renew his body? Any Ideas?
> "I do believe we will see crouch jr. again."
> 
> Doreen wrote:
> "Very interesting point, and just the kind of hint that JKR writes 
> that we go back and look at *after* JKR explains it to us via 
> Dumbledore at the end of the books."
> 
> --Hmmm...I don't think that's likely at all. It's a good point, but 
> Crouch's body doesn't need restoration does it? The body itself is 
> perfectly healthy and fine, except for the fact that it lacks a 
soul. 
> (The idea is really disturbing. *shudders*) 

********************
Well, what if a different spell, similar in nature, but not the exact 
one that Voldie used, were possible? Using Meckie's idea, is it 
possible that a particular spell is out there somewhere to bring back 
a soul-sucked individual can return to his original state?
No, Voldie was not *dead*. Crouch is not *dead* either. Therefore, if 
a dark arts spell can bring back Voldie to his original state, why 
not Crouch or anyone else who has been soul-kissed? Who knows what 
magic is hidden in some of those old spell books. 

Doreen, who still likes Mecky's idea & vampires & Hagrid ... go figure
> 
> Which leads me to a question about Dementor-kissed bodies. What 
> happens to them? I'd imagine that they go to St. Mungo's where they 
> are cared for and fed until they die. It doesn't sound like a 
> reversible condition so I'd think that once you're gone you're 
gone. 
> However I don't doubt that Harry will meet Crouch Jr. again. Maybe 
> he'll encounter his body in an infirmary of St. Mungo's if he ever 
> ventures there.
> 
> Scott




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 05:26:21 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:26:21 -0000
Subject: Cosmetics
In-Reply-To: <9c6h75+mno@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c8bht+mq0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17718

Eyes would be alot more difficult to alter correctly. 
Teeth and bones are easy to line up and shrink or grow. 
There are a number of noses that should be realligned 
and/or resized though. Noses (Cartilage) should be easier 
than bone to manipulate. 

Bugg 


"Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> wrote:
> 
> FURTHERMORE -- if they can fix teeth and bones, WHY don't they 
correct vision?  Even Muggles can do that (if you don't have an 
astigmatism, that is)
> 
> Stephanie
> 





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 06:27:25 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:27:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Setting Sun 
In-Reply-To: <9c853c+t4or@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c8f4d+2ijo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17719

Doesn't the time coinside with the setting sun and not just 
the full moon? Buckbeak was to be executed at sundown. The 
first group moved into the tunnel before sundown. Snape would 
have gone to look for Lupin before sundown. Harry and Hermione 
took Buckbeak before sundown and hid in the forest. Lupin 
turned into a werewolf when he saw the full moon, at sundown. 

Bugg 


> Amy Z wrote:
> It just doesn't work that Lupin only transforms when actually 
exposed to the moon. Or are you proposing that even if he's indoors, 
if the moon is out, he's a wolf, and if the moon is behind a cloud, 
he goes back to being a man? 
> 
> mdartagnan at y... wrote: 
> I've just came up with a theory. It's full of holes, but... 
> 
> We know Remus transforms into a wolf regardless if he's indoors or 
outdoors. He claimed that, thanks to the Wolfsbane Potion, he turns 
into a harmless wolf and stays inside his office. I can't recall if 
the windows of the Shrieking Shack were covered as well. 
> 
The only thing that *might* explain why on PoA he transforms into a 
wolf until the moonlight touches him might be the time at which the 
change takes place. Maybe when he's indoors, the change takes place 
until the Lunar influence is just too strong to be avoided ?maybe 
when  the Moon reaches its zenith (eh... is this word well written?) 
or something like that. But being directly exposed to moonlight might 
trigger an immediate change ?something Remus clearly forgot after 
many Full Moon indoors, or maybe he thought the night would remain 
cloudy for still some hours.
> 
I told you this theory was full of holes. Maybe the change had 
something to do with the wolfsbane potion, as many fanfics suggest, 
or it's just a Flint. But it's fun to speculate.
> 
> Misbehave,
> Marijose
> 




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Thu Apr 26 06:37:32 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:37:32 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Question from the Spouse
In-Reply-To: <3AE78C01.1FA5903A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPEDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17720

Amanda: <<<On Quidditch. Jan came in and asked if players are allowed to
*hold* the Quaffle. Heidi and I found the passage in QTA that indicates
they do (p. 20), covering the older quaffles with holding straps, and how
the new ones have Gripping Charms. So they clearly hold it.

So then he asks if they hold it away from their bodies, or do they "tuck"
it under an arm? And if the latter, how can it be "taken" from them by
other players?

He says his mental image is one of soccer, where players pass the ball from
one to the other as they run down the field. In that case, taking it is a
matter of getting it when it's between players. But if the Quaffle is held
by one player while he/she zooms down the field, how (other than pitching a
bludger at them and making them drop it) does another player take it?>>>

My guess on this is based on netball. In this sport when you have the ball
you are only allowed limited movement (a couple of step or something in
that line) and you move the ball down the pitch by passing it between
yourselves and then running down the pitch when you do not have the ball.

I would guess that this is the case in Quidditch as well. The chasers throw
the ball between them and move down the pitch. Only being able to fly when
they do not have the ball. There are a few technicalities that would need
explaining to make this system work, but it does explain why passing is so
important and not just trying to fly round someone (which in 3d is fairly
easy).



Simon




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Apr 26 06:41:31 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:41:31 -0000
Subject: Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
In-Reply-To: <9c896u+ru6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c8fur+d9vn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17721

Thanks Doreen for supporting my Idea!
Of course it could be a red hering, but why would JKR make Crouch 
jr. turn his father's body into a bone without a reason. If it was 
just to hide him, he could have used a stone, a tree or anything 
else!
I think it is a hint, because nobody mentions it again, after the 
veritaeserum scene, so it will produce exactly the kind of "AHA"- 
effect JKR loves to create!
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> > Mecki wrote:
> > "Voldemort returned to life, after taking the "bone fo the father" 
> > (paraphrasing).When Crouch jr. had killed his father, he turned 
him 
> > into a bone and buried him. Could that mean, that V. has a 
> > possibility to renew the soul-less Crouch with the same potion he 
> > used to renew his body? Any Ideas?
> > "I do believe we will see crouch jr. again."
> > 
> > Doreen wrote:
> > "Very interesting point, and just the kind of hint that JKR writes 
> > that we go back and look at *after* JKR explains it to us via 
> > Dumbledore at the end of the books."
> > 
> > --Hmmm...I don't think that's likely at all. It's a good point, 
but 
> > Crouch's body doesn't need restoration does it? The body itself is 
> > perfectly healthy and fine, except for the fact that it lacks a 
> soul. 
> > (The idea is really disturbing. *shudders*) 
> 
> ********************
> Well, what if a different spell, similar in nature, but not the 
exact 
> one that Voldie used, were possible? Using Meckie's idea, is it 
> possible that a particular spell is out there somewhere to bring 
back 
> a soul-sucked individual can return to his original state?
> No, Voldie was not *dead*. Crouch is not *dead* either. Therefore, 
if 
> a dark arts spell can bring back Voldie to his original state, why 
> not Crouch or anyone else who has been soul-kissed? Who knows what 
> magic is hidden in some of those old spell books. 
> 
> Doreen, who still likes Mecky's idea & vampires & Hagrid 




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Apr 26 11:13:10 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:13:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
References: <9c896u+ru6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c0ce41$e344b1e0$900a1b3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17722


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nera at rconnect.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:46 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)



  ********************
  Well, what if a different spell, similar in nature, but not the exact 
  one that Voldie used, were possible? Using Meckie's idea, is it 
  possible that a particular spell is out there somewhere to bring back 
  a soul-sucked individual can return to his original state?
  No, Voldie was not *dead*. Crouch is not *dead* either. Therefore, if 
  a dark arts spell can bring back Voldie to his original state, why 
  not Crouch or anyone else who has been soul-kissed? Who knows what 
  magic is hidden in some of those old spell books. 

  Doreen, who still likes Mecky's idea & vampires & Hagrid ... go figure



  Voldemort did say that the Dementors will join him, being his natural allies (GoF, p.651, amer.).  I imagine Voldemort would want his faithful servant back, so perhaps he knows of a way to convince that dementor to barf up Barty's soul.  But whqat does happen to dementors who eat souls?  If their soulless victims might possibly become new dementors, then might dementors who have eaten souls become human again?  No, that wouldn't work, would it?  Because then there'd be a new human out there running around with Barty Crouch's soul driving him.  I wonder, though, if the dememntors do change somehow after a good "meal."

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 11:38:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:38:10 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Question from the Spouse
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPEDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9c91b2+1i8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17723

Simon wrote:

>My guess on this is based on netball. In this sport when you have the 
ball
>you are only allowed limited movement (a couple of step or something 
in
>that line) and you move the ball down the pitch by passing it between
>yourselves and then running down the pitch when you do not have the 
ball.

What's netball?  Sounds interesting.

In basketball, too, you can't carry the ball more than one 
step--otherwise you have to pass it or dribble (bounce) it.  
Interception is therefore the best way to get a ball from an opponent.

However, the Chasers are unlimited in the time, distance, and method 
by which they can carry the Quaffle, unless the rules are leaving out 
a very important point.  I wouldn't be entirely surprised if JKR had 
left out some key rules, though.  I thought that section was mighty 
thin.  The only sports rulebook I'm acquainted with is baseball, whose 
rules are admittedly known to be labyrinthine, and the book is longer 
than all of QTA.  It's hard to believe JKR's covered everything one 
needs to know about Quidditch in those few pages of rules.

Amy Z
studying up for her Quidditch referee exam

-------------------------------------------------
  "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
  "He =is=," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" 
 he added to Harry.
  "What?" said Harry.
  "=Harry Potter=," chorused the twins.
  "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
               --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 13:03:58 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:03:58 -0000
Subject: Quidditch Question from the Spouse
In-Reply-To: <9c91b2+1i8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c96bu+4te8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> What's netball?  Sounds interesting.

Netball is very similar to basketball - the main difference is that 
you aren't allowed to dribble the ball - you have to pass  to team 
members within seconds of catching the ball.  This gives the best 
scope for interception - whilst the ball is being passed to someone 
else.
This is how I imagined the quaffle to be passed.  However, I am sure 
that during Lee Jordan's commentary he talks about chasers tearing up 
the pitch with the quaffle.  So it seems they are flying with it.  I 
suppose they can pass it if someone is closer to the goal than they 
are.  Also, I expect they pass if they are in danger from a bludger, 
or are being blocked by beaters or something.  I don't know.


Catherine





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 13:09:00 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <9c79mq+todk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010426130900.4898.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17725


--- linman6868 at aol.com wrote:
> Anyway, that's old news.  I was wondering further, after some people 
> posted about why we're not talking about Harry as enthusiastically as
> Ron or Hermione, why this seems to be the case.  Someone (I forgot 
> who) said it was because Harry is more boring than the rest of them. 

Hmmm, I don't quite think it's that. As you mentioned in your post, we
see the wizarding world mostly through Harry's eyes and thoughts. Since
we DO have access to his thoughts most of the time, there's less to
question. However, with the rest of the characters, we only see them
through Harry. I believe that makes Hermione, Ron, and the rest more of
an enigma. In a sense, it makes them more "interesting" (for lack of a
better word) since we don't know how exactly they feel about certain
situations and people. We can speculate more.

Granted, we don't always know how Harry feels/thinks but we know a
great deal more about his personal self than the others! Just my humble
thoughts on the subject.

~Amber


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 00:30:03 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:30:03 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who killed J&L
Message-ID: <LAW2-F99hYQYx3G5aYY000020b5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17726

Steve Vander Ark wrote:


> >
> > Where do you get the idea that Voldemort was destroyed before James
> > and Lily were killed?
>
>Because the echo, as you point out that it's called, of the spell
>that nearly destroyed Voldemort DOESN'T come out of the wand. It
>would have presumably been the next one out if Harry had maintained
>the contact and the Priori Incantatem effect. But no echo, no spell.
>That's the way the thing is described as working. As for the things
>Harry hears, remember that he doesn't actually hear anyone die, just
>the voices and the screaming.

How can you hear someone die?  Can't give chapter and verse, but doesn't 
Voldemort admit he killed the Potters?
>
>You could even make a case for the fact that he didn't hear his
>father at all, but someone else. After all, when he tells Lupin that
>he hears his father, Lupin gives him a peculiar look. He's never
>actually heard his father's voice at that time. Was his father even
>there? What does Lupin know about that incident that makes him
>suprised at Harry's interpretation of what he hears? Was it someone
>else having taken Polyjuice Potion? Was LUPIN there? Whoa!

Agree, it didn't have to be James.  Harry doesn't remark any difference 
between the "wand echo" James and the Dementor-induced memories, but then, 
the voices are distorted in the duel with Voldemart.  Don't think it's 
polyjuice, but something is going on there.

>Again, I am pretty sure that the JKR is NOT pulling some fancy trick
>here, but that she simply didn't think it all out in the kind of
>infinite detail that we are. But it's fun to analyze and imagine. And
>who knows...maybe I'll be proved right!
I think the events of that night are one thing JKR *has* thought out in 
infinite detail - everything we are told raises more questions than answers. 
  For instance, why doesn't Dumbledore comment when Hagrid says he's going 
to take Sirius's bike back?  Either he knows Sirius has already been 
arrested, or he doesn't, but thinks Sirius is the traitor.  Either way, 
you'd think he'd say something.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Apr 26 13:13:37 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:13:37 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: "Elvish Is King!" - meet our new List Elves
In-Reply-To: <029401c0ce02$88ffdd20$8c3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9c96u1+9slt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17727

> Flying Ford Anglia steps through the fug wearing a quilted, lilac 
smoking jacket and Muggle crash helmet marked "Boyracer".


*fug* ... is this some nasty English weather? Is that what you call 
*fog* when you are really really mad at the weather? LOL

>Every new member will be assigned a personal Elf
 
Let me be the first on the list to ... protest ... I want my very own 
personal elf too. Not fair!! Favoritism!! The newbies get all the 
good stuff!! What about us oldies? What did we ever get? A promise of 
a picture of Neil in his bunny slippers and hairnet? And that never 
happened! 

Do the newbies get to *keep* the elves? When the elves are no longer 
needed, do the newbies throw a sock at 'em? 

Doreen, who is carrying a sign which says, "We want elves!" on one 
side and, "Elf freeing socks for sale" on the other.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 13:39:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:39:28 -0000
Subject: Opening gambits II answers & one more question
Message-ID: <9c98eg+4do6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17728

Catherine is clearly the wizard at these, as she got all but one.  
We'll have to prevail upon her to MC "Harry Jeopardy!" when we finally 
have our longed-for convention.

Amy Z


"How did you know it was me?"
Professor McGonagall 1/PS/SS

"Oooooooh!"
Peeves 7/PS/SS

"Nine and three quarters!"
Ginny 6/PS/SS

"What is it?"
Aragog 15/CS

"Aha!"
Sir Cadogan 5/PA

"Welcome."
Professor Trelawney 6/PA

"=Nearly= Headless?"
Seamus Finnigan 7/PS/SS

"Well, what are you all waiting for?"
Madame Hooch 9/PS/SS

"Are you all right?"
Firenze 15/PS/SS

"Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall."
Professor Dumbledore 1/PS/SS

BONUS

A Fizzing Whizbee to whoever gets this one:

"How're you doing, Harry?"




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 13:55:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:55:44 -0000
Subject: Erratum on quiz
In-Reply-To: <9c98eg+4do6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c99d0+mrs5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17729

Sorry, we meet Sir Cadogan in chapter =6= of PA.

Amy Z




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Apr 26 14:19:47 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:19:47 -0400
Subject: Lupin and the full moon
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC08BE@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17730

Hello, it's Gwen, who's in a silly mood today, for some reason.

Of everything I posted in my attempts to ignore the Abanes debate, this is
what got picked up? ;^)

Okay, we'll talk about the full moon.
> 
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > It just doesn't work that Lupin only transforms when actually 
> > exposed to the moon. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Or are you proposing that even if he's indoors, if the moon is out, 
> > he's a wolf, and if the moon is behind a cloud, he goes 
> back to being 
> > a man? 
> 

This is kind of what I was getting at, yes, that the change is affected
owing to the exposure of the moon in the sky, regardless of where the
werewolf is when it happens. However, it still doesn't reconcile the whole
thing.

So Marijose wrote:

> I've just came up with a theory. It's full of holes, but... 
> 
> We know Remus transforms into a wolf regardless if he's indoors or 
> outdoors. He claimed that, thanks to the Wolfsbane Potion, he turns 
> into a harmless wolf and stays inside his office. I can't 
> recall if the 
> windows of the Shrieking Shack were covered as well. 
> 
> The only thing that *might* explain why on PoA he transforms into a 
> wolf until the moonlight touches him might be the time at which the 
> change takes place. Maybe when he's indoors, the change takes place 
> until the Lunar influence is just too strong to be avoided 
> -maybe when 
> the Moon reaches its zenith (eh... is this word well written?) or 
> something like that. But being directly exposed to moonlight might 
> trigger an immediate change -something Remus clearly forgot 
> after many 
> Full Moon indoors, or maybe he thought the night would remain cloudy 
> for still some hours.
> 
> I told you this theory was full of holes. Maybe the change had 
> something to do with the wolfsbane potion, as many fanfics 
> suggest, or 
> it's just a Flint. But it's fun to speculate.
> 
 
It could also be that after the first exposure to the moon, the
transformation stays put, unlike the aforementioned Scooby-Doo fuzzfaced
werewolves. There are still problems with this, though.


And Bugg wrote:
> 
> Doesn't the time coinside with the setting sun and not just 
> the full moon? Buckbeak was to be executed at sundown. The 
> first group moved into the tunnel before sundown. Snape would 
> have gone to look for Lupin before sundown. Harry and Hermione 
> took Buckbeak before sundown and hid in the forest. Lupin 
> turned into a werewolf when he saw the full moon, at sundown. 


Well, the sundown theory doesn't work. I just checked PoA (US hardcover). In
Chapter 21 (when Harry and Hermione are using the time-turner to rescue
Buckbeak), they get Buckbeak away while the ministry people are inside with
Hagrid. 

"[Hermione] looked nervously over her shoulder into the depths of the
forest. The sun was setting now." 

They move to the forest to hide buckbeak better. They witness Sirius
dragging Ron into the willow, and watch as their past selves follow.

A few minutes later, Lupin comes through:

"they saw another figure sprinting down the stone steps and haring toward
the Willow. Harry looked up at the sky. Clouds were obscuring the moon
completely."

So the sun was down and the moon was up when he came across the first time.
Sorry.


Over the next hour, Harry and Hermione wait. The only reference to the moon
is that "The moon drifted in and out of sight behind the shifting clouds." 

Then, in agreement with the previous description of this episode (from
Chapter Twenty), the crew comes out of the Willow.  In 20, it's described
thus:
"The grounds were very dark now; the only light came from the distant
windows of the castle."

"And then--
"A cloud shifted. There were suddenly dim shadows on the ground. Their party
was bathed in moonlight."


And in Twenty-One:
"[Harry] glanced up at the sky. Any moment now, that cloud was going to move
aside and show the moon...."

"The moon slid out from behind its cloud. They saw the tiny figures across
the grounds stop. Then they saw the movement--
"'There goes Lupin,' Hermione whispered."

So I think it's clearly the visibility of the moon (or moonlight) from the
ground that triggers his transformation. Now, whether that is a side-effect
of the Wolfsbane potion or not is unknown. However, Hermione does comment
(in 20) that he didn't take the potion, so maybe it's a weirdness from only
taking 6 nights worth of potion, but not the 7th (or however many
nights--it's not specified). It also doesn't explain why he didn't get
wolfish in the shack during those moments when the moon did peek out while
Harry and Hermione waited. However, this reference occurs close to the time
that they come out, so it could be argued they are underground in the tunnel
when it starts to clear up.

But again, since the potion is JKR's invention, she might ascribe many of
the strange effects to it, especially in light of the fact that he might
have taken a partial course of it (rather like a partial course of
antibiotic), but without the full course, the effects are unreliable.

I don't subscribe to the theory that Snape was tampering with it, for good
or bad intent.

Oh, well. Maybe it really is a Flint, but if it is, it's a very carefully
constructed and consistent one (given her attention to timing and making
sure no direct moonlight hit him prior to the Change).

Gwendolyn Grace



From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Apr 26 14:31:25 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:31:25 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <9c7ohs+uppj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c9bft+i7s3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17731


> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> > > AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > 
> > > i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and
> > > his scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > 
> > > please go to this site 
> > > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> > > look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me
> > > that i am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this 
> detail.

I went back through the trailer itself, and there are 2 other places 
where we see that side of Harry's head:
1. When catching the letters at the Dursleys
2. When walking in Gringotts with Hagrid.

In the letters scene it looks like he might have a scar there, but 
then again, it might be hair. In Gringotts, nothing is there at all.

So I have to go on the *hair* theory for the moment but would love it 
if someone would freeze those bits of the trailer so we can see more 
clearly. 
Any takers?




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Thu Apr 26 14:41:50 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:41:50 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's scar and the movie
In-Reply-To: <9c9bft+i7s3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPIDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 17732

> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pjmonkey273 at y... wrote:
> > > AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > i have just looked at a pic of harry from the upcoming film, and
> > > his scar, it's on his temple, not his forhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > please go to this site
> > > http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/home.jsp
> > > look at the second pic down and please, please, please tell me
> > > that i am mistaken and the film makers haven't changed this
> detail.

Heidi: <<<I went back through the trailer itself, and there are 2 other
places
where we see that side of Harry's head:
1. When catching the letters at the Dursleys
2. When walking in Gringotts with Hagrid.

In the letters scene it looks like he might have a scar there, but
then again, it might be hair. In Gringotts, nothing is there at all.

So I have to go on the *hair* theory for the moment but would love it
if someone would freeze those bits of the trailer so we can see more
clearly.
Any takers?>>>


You also see that side of his head in the scene where he is in the cupboard
under the stairs.

I had a quick look at this and came to the conclusion that it was either
hair or a shadow cast by his glasses.


Simon (I must have watched that movie trailer for more time now than the
total length of the movie)




From landers at email.unc.edu  Thu Apr 26 15:42:04 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:42:04 -0400
Subject: Mecki brings up good point...
Message-ID: <3AE841CC.74330BF6@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17733

   From: "Roy & Wanda Mallett" <wr7238 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Mecki Brings up good point...

Mecki brings up a really good point. If Voldemort can come back with the
remains of his father, why not anyone else with the remains of their
relatives? Especially all those on Voldemort's side? The Blood,Flesh,
and Bone spell seems to be a really nasty way of coming back but with
all of what we read in GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up
anyway.

Wanda The Witch
Wanda, it's because Voldemort was not actually dead.  You have to have
something left of the person you're reserecting to bring him back. 
Therefore, Harry could not bring back James and Lilly with their
relatives' bones.
 Sorry if something along those lines has already been posted.  I'm more
than likely a few digests behind because of the message volume.
Betty, who's going back into the lerkdom that college induces. 
Congratulations, Penny and Bryce!



From editor at texas.net  Thu Apr 26 16:22:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:22:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's scar and the movie
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPIDHAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3AE84B35.C0A031A8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17734

Simon wrote:

> I had a quick look at this and came to the conclusion that it was
> either hair or a shadow cast by his glasses.

I'd been meaning to point that out, too--everyone's been saying hair,
but that's right where the frame of his glasses is, too.

> Simon (I must have watched that movie trailer for more time now than
> the total length of the movie)

God help us when the movie's DVD is released....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Thu Apr 26 16:54:42 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:54:42 -0000
Subject: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <20010426130900.4898.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c9jsi+q1m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17735

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- linman6868 at a... wrote:
> > Anyway, that's old news.  I was wondering further, after some people posted about why we're not talking about Harry as enthusiastically as Ron or Hermione, why this seems to be the case.  Someone (I forgot  who) said it was because Harry is more boring than the rest of them. 

Amber wrote:
> Hmmm, I don't quite think it's that. As you mentioned in your post, we see the wizarding world mostly through Harry's eyes and thoughts. 


...and we see the magic of the list? I can't find the post, so maybe 
I'm wrong (and my relative new-ness adds to the possibility).

It seems to me that I recall one of the problems with the extension of 
Ron week being that someone (who did, in fact remain pregnant till 
Harry week) might not be around to discuss Harry.  Do we think there's 
any truth to the rumors flying about that such a person (name omitted 
because she has not been officially charged with an offense) cast a 
"Snape Discussion Charm" (SDC) on the listmembers?  Knowing, as she 
does, that Snape fans (and anti-fans) are truly imaginative and 
prolific in their messages, she allegedly cast the charm.  The SDC ran 
away with the list.  Discussions concerned everything from Snape's 
behavior to his personal hygiene.  Or is it only coincidence that the 
cries of "We really need to discuss Harry!" are building momentum only 
a few days before the individual in question is slated to be back home 
(with her computer).
Rumor has it that MoM officials are investigating these serious 
allegations.
Neeta Skeeter (no relation)

Congratulations on the new baby!

On Harry...
I think he's going to be a somewhat different character in the next 
book.  I think the weaknesses we see now -- pride, stubbornness, 
unwillingness to trust adults, lack of intense study of wizard (& 
Potter) history -- are going to evolve based on the events in GoF.
His pride was pointed out to him (by BC, jr. of all people).  His lack 
of knowledge about Neville's background was pointedly questioned by 
Dumbledore.
I'm thinking he's going to spend whatever part of the summer he stays 
with the Dursleys reliving the major events of GoF and trying to figure 
out what, if anything, he could have done differently.  I think he's 
going to try to make himself better/stronger so that he won't have to 
helplessly witness the death of someone he cares about.
My rationale?
As far as the "reliving", that's natural.  Unfortunately, for Harry, 
the Dursleys aren't likely to care about the things he's been through, 
and take care to occupy him (get his mind off it).  If his summers go 
as usual, then aside from occasional cooking/cleaning and possible 
homework (which will also trigger memories), Harry won't have much to 
do but think about what he "could/should" have done.
I think Year 5 will see him more involved in the lives of other 
Gryffindors.  (Can't let BCjr be right about him, and he feels bad 
about knowing so little about Neville, and about N's situation. The 
thought was something along the lines of "Neville should be the one 
getting the sympathy, not me", but I don't have GoF, and can't quote or 
give reference.
I think "constant vigilance" is going to be stuck in his head (so to 
speak) not only in the memories of "Moody", but because if Harry had 
been more vigilant, then maybe... (speaking from Harry's POV).  In GoF, 
Harry seemed to be becoming more willing to trust adults, but then Rita 
told lies about him, he trusted "Moody", and Fudge turned against him 
(and he thinks he saw a gleam in Dumbledore's eye).  I think adults 
come across as fickle, if not downright untrustworthy - he may pull 
back some from the trust he was developing.
I also think he's going to (in his rehashing) remember hearing 
Dumbledore say to round up the old crowd, remember hearing the name 
"Arabella Figg", and wonder how common a name "Figg" is.  Maybe he'll 
even ask, "Uh, Uncle Vernon, what's Mrs. Figg's first name?" <vbg>

Thoughts, opinions, ideas all welcome.
a.






From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Apr 26 17:01:56 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:01:56 -0000
Subject: Who killed J&L
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F99hYQYx3G5aYY000020b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c9ka4+6tc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17736


> 
> How can you hear someone die?  Can't give chapter and verse, but 
doesn't 
> Voldemort admit he killed the Potters?

Ah, yes, but if it was someone else under the influence of Polyjuice 
potion or if he seriously injured but didn't actually kill them, he 
would SAY he'd killed them. My point is that all our witnesses to 
that event are imperfect. They are making assumptions that might not 
turn out the be correct. The only objective witness is the wand under 
Priori Incantatem. 


> >
> >You could even make a case for the fact that he didn't hear his
> >father at all, but someone else. After all, when he tells Lupin 
that
> >he hears his father, Lupin gives him a peculiar look. He's never
> >actually heard his father's voice at that time. Was his father even
> >there? What does Lupin know about that incident that makes him
> >suprised at Harry's interpretation of what he hears? Was it someone
> >else having taken Polyjuice Potion? Was LUPIN there? Whoa!


> I think the events of that night are one thing JKR *has* thought 
out in 
> infinite detail - everything we are told raises more questions than 
answers. 
>   For instance, why doesn't Dumbledore comment when Hagrid says 
he's going 
> to take Sirius's bike back?  Either he knows Sirius has already 
been 
> arrested, or he doesn't, but thinks Sirius is the traitor.  Either 
way, 
> you'd think he'd say something.

There are plenty of mysteries about it that aren't just our 
nitpicking reaedings of the books, but are things deliberately left 
vague by JKR. I'm sure that when we get to the end of book 7, we'll 
be delighted and surprised at all the places we've been to and the 
answers we've discovered.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 26 17:24:54 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:24:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and the Full Moon
In-Reply-To: <9c853c+t4or@eGroups.com>
References: <9c83cl+nt1u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426102005.03aa6f00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17737

At 03:36 AM 4/26/01 +0000, mdartagnan at yahoo.com wrote:
>The only thing that *might* explain why on PoA he transforms into a
>wolf until the moonlight touches him might be the time at which the
>change takes place. Maybe when he's indoors, the change takes place
>until the Lunar influence is just too strong to be avoided ?maybe when
>the Moon reaches its zenith (eh... is this word well written?) or
>something like that. But being directly exposed to moonlight might
>trigger an immediate change ?something Remus clearly forgot after many
>Full Moon indoors, or maybe he thought the night would remain cloudy
>for still some hours.

Since astronomically speaking "Full Moon" is an instantaneous event
(when the moon is in exact opposition to the sun).  Your theory "Lunar
influence" makes sense.  Maybe out in the open on a clear night he
transform when the moon is 95% Full, but the moon has to be 98%
or 99% Full to break through barriers like walls and clouds.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 26 17:35:35 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:35:35 -0700
Subject: Another: Apology
In-Reply-To: <031b01c0ce08$5f9f27a0$8c3570c2@c5s910j>
References: <9c80rv+3bq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426103206.03d29a20@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17738

At 05:21 AM 4/26/01 +0100, Neil Ward wrote:
>There are good lessons to be learned here, in how words on a page can
>portray us differently than we might wish.  In an internet forum, it's very
>easy for the worst aspects of a thread to grow wings and bury the good
>points beneath.
>
>Moral: Choose your words carefully or they will follow you like a shadow...

I just want to express my own apologies for having started the whole
ugly exchange in the first place.  When my passions are high, I sometimes
use immoderate language, which I shall endeavor to keep in check in future.



                                                 -- Dave




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 17:45:18 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <9c9jsi+q1m6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010426174518.39681.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17739

> On Harry...
> I think he's going to be a somewhat different character in the next
> book.  I think the weaknesses we see now -- pride, stubbornness, 
> unwillingness to trust adults, lack of intense study of wizard (& 
> Potter) history -- are going to evolve based on the events in GoF.
> His pride was pointed out to him (by BC, jr. of all people).  

I am rather surprised at Harry's lack of curiousity about his family
past.  Now that he's had a few years to get used to the wizarding
world, I would have thought he'd be spending some time researching
his heritage.

I don't mean just his parents: Hagrid's thoughtful gift of the photo
album might have slaked an initial thirst for core knowledge.  But
what about grandparents and ancestors?  Family history?  And for that
matter, how about asking Hagrid about the various friends and former
classmates who contributed the pics?

It just seems that he would be more curious.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Apr 26 17:52:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:52:39 -0000
Subject: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <20010426174518.39681.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c9n97+lng8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17740

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > On Harry...
> > I think he's going to be a somewhat different character in the 
next
> > book.  I think the weaknesses we see now -- pride, stubbornness, 
> > unwillingness to trust adults, lack of intense study of wizard (& 
> > Potter) history -- are going to evolve based on the events in GoF.
> > His pride was pointed out to him (by BC, jr. of all people).  
> 
> I am rather surprised at Harry's lack of curiousity about his family
> past.  Now that he's had a few years to get used to the wizarding
> world, I would have thought he'd be spending some time researching
> his heritage.
> 
> I don't mean just his parents: Hagrid's thoughtful gift of the photo
> album might have slaked an initial thirst for core knowledge.  But
> what about grandparents and ancestors?  Family history?  And for 
that
> matter, how about asking Hagrid about the various friends and former
> classmates who contributed the pics?
> 
> It just seems that he would be more curious.

I've wondered about this too - and indeed, have been frustrated by 
Harry's lack of curiousity.  I came to the dubious conclusion that 
this is merely a devise by which JKR keeps us guessing - I have a 
feeling that there are important things to be revealed about Harry's 
family/ancestors which she does not want to divulge yet.  Mind you, 
the odd rebuffed question from Harry would not go amiss.

Catherine




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 26 18:17:48 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:17:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: "Elvish Is King!" - meet our new List Elves
In-Reply-To: <9c96u1+9slt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010426181748.18427.qmail@web1608.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17741


--- nera at rconnect.com wrote:
> Let me be the first on the list to ... protest ... I want my very own
> personal elf too. Not fair!! Favoritism!! The newbies get all the 
> good stuff!! What about us oldies? What did we ever get? A promise of
> a picture of Neil in his bunny slippers and hairnet? And that never 
> happened! 

<cough> Bunny slippers and hairnet? Now *that* is an interesting
combination! What are the bunnies' names? And I think someone needs to
deliver on their promise! <wicked grin>

> Do the newbies get to *keep* the elves? When the elves are no longer 
> needed, do the newbies throw a sock at 'em? 

Mmmm, very good questions. <looks at list moderators expectantly>

~Amber
(who's trying to keep up with the roaring wit of the list but feels
herself somewhat lacking...)


=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Apr 26 18:20:56 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:20:56 -0000
Subject: Harrys Curiousity, was Re: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <20010426174518.39681.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9c9ou8+udov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17742

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> I am rather surprised at Harry's lack of curiousity about his family
> past.  Now that he's had a few years to get used to the wizarding
> world, I would have thought he'd be spending some time researching
> his heritage.
> 
I wanted to respond to this, although we have discussed this before, 
because I meant to put this in my Harry Character Sketch.

My theory about Harrys curious lack of curiousity about his family is 
that he has decided not to think about them, so as to get on with his 
life.  There is a part in PoA, after one of the dementor-fighting 
sessions with Lupin, where Harry says to himself that is he wants to 
win the next Quidditch match and get on with his life he has to 
forget about his parents, since he has admitted to himself that part 
of him almost wants to face the dementors so as to hear his parents 
voices.  The wizarding world has far more reminders of the dead than 
the muggle world.  Shadows of the dead come out of wands, and can be 
retained by powerful spells (in diaries for example), talking images 
of the dead can exists in portraits, their photos move, their 
reflections can be found in the Mirror of Erised, etc.  If Harry 
didnt make an effort to put his family out of his head, he could 
easily be overwhelmed by all the reminders, as he was by the Mirror 
of Erised and the dementors.  I believe that this explains why Harry 
never makes any effort to research his family; he has made a 
conscious decision not to.  I would love to hear any other theories 
people have about this.

Incidently, I want to say that Ebony was completely right in her 
constructively and gentley offered criticism of my Harry Character 
Sketch; I gave a lot of space to Harry and Rons friendship and almost 
none to Harry and Hermiones.  I apologize, and agree that Harry and 
Hermiones friendship deserves at least as much analysis, I just ran 
out of steam.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Apr 26 18:29:16 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:29:16 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors Kiss (was Re: Crouch and the bone!)
In-Reply-To: <9c896u+ru6o@eGroups.com>
References: <9c7sfv+eiso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426112549.00c71d80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17743

At 04:46 AM 4/26/01 +0000, nera at rconnect.com wrote:
>No, Voldie was not *dead*. Crouch is not *dead* either...

Crouch is "worse than dead".  His soul is utterly destroyed.
He's not even in perdition.  He has ceased to be a sentient
being!  I don't think *any* spell can bring him back.  It would
be like trying to unerase a tape.



                                                 -- Dave




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 26 18:33:16 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:33:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch Question from the Spouse
References: <3AE78C01.1FA5903A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AE869EC.93270251@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17744



Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> On Quidditch. Jan came in and asked if players are allowed to *hold*
> the
> Quaffle. Heidi and I found the passage in QTA that indicates they do
> (p.
> 20), covering the older quaffles with holding straps, and how the new
> ones have Gripping Charms. So they clearly hold it.
>
> So then he asks if they hold it away from their bodies, or do they
> "tuck" it under an arm? And if the latter, how can it be "taken" from
> them by other players?

    I think that it can be stripped away from them by an opposing
player, much as the ball is stripped during American football or rugby
even.  Quidditch seems to be a very rough sport, so I imagine that there
is a great deal of phyiscal contact, both attempted and accomplished.

    On the other hand, I don't think there is only one way of holding
the ball during a match.  Some Chasers may prefer to tuck the ball and
others, hotdogs that they are, may simply grab on and go.  Again, think
of American football as the analogy; there are many different ways for a
running back to hold a ball.  As an aside, I think James Potter was a
more grab and go type guy.  Since one is more vulnerable to having the
ball stripped when carrying it in this position, it would take a little
more skill to hang on and score.  James seems a like a flamboyant
guy--at least on the pitch.

Simon wrote:

> My guess on this is based on netball. In this sport when you have the
> ball
> you are only allowed limited movement (a couple of step or something
> in
> that line) and you move the ball down the pitch by passing it between
> yourselves and then running down the pitch when you do not have the
> ball.
>

    By netball, do you mean basketball?  I think this could be a
reasonable analogy as well.

BTW, have you guys tried the new Bludger Practise game at the WB site?
It is very difficult (at least for me) and really gives me a sense of
how difficult it must be to play Quidditch.

drpam




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 20:00:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:00:59 -0000
Subject: the other Mr. Potter (was Quidditch)
In-Reply-To: <3AE869EC.93270251@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9c9upr+7nlc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17745

Pam Hugonnet wrote:

>As an aside, I think James Potter was a
> more grab and go type guy.  Since one is more vulnerable to having 
the
> ball stripped when carrying it in this position, it would take a 
little
> more skill to hang on and score.  James seems a like a flamboyant
> guy--at least on the pitch.
> 

I have got to hear about this!  DrPam, tell us more.  What do you 
think James was like, and for what reason?  Canon snippets, gut 
feelings, perhaps a secret wish to be grabbed and got gone with by 
James Potter?

Amy Z




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 20:03:44 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:03:44 -0000
Subject: Harry's lack of curiosity was Re: The Elusive Harry Fortnight
In-Reply-To: <9c9n97+lng8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9c9uv0+8d7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17746

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > 
> > I am rather surprised at Harry's lack of curiousity about his
family
> > past.  Now that he's had a few years to get used to the wizarding
> > world, I would have thought he'd be spending some time researching
> > his heritage.
> > 
> > I don't mean just his parents: Hagrid's thoughtful gift of the
photo
> > album might have slaked an initial thirst for core knowledge.  But
> > what about grandparents and ancestors?  Family history?  And for 
> that
> > matter, how about asking Hagrid about the various friends and
former
> > classmates who contributed the pics?
> > 
> > It just seems that he would be more curious.
> 
> I've wondered about this too - and indeed, have been frustrated by 
> Harry's lack of curiousity.  I came to the dubious conclusion that 
> this is merely a devise by which JKR keeps us guessing - I have a 
> feeling that there are important things to be revealed about Harry's 
> family/ancestors which she does not want to divulge yet.  Mind you, 
> the odd rebuffed question from Harry would not go amiss.

On thinking of this issue, I am reminded of the way many children of
Holocaust survivors describe their parents' attitude regarding their
experiences. It was not discussed. It was a secret around which  the
family's lives turned, whose heavy presence was felt all the time, but
never mentioned. Often, the only tangible sense of it would be hearing
their parents scream at night when dreaming.
Years later, the parents explained that they didn't want to burden
their children with unimaginable horrors. They also felt that they
needed to behave is such a way for themsleves - that the only way for
them to survive was to "put all that behind them".

My feeling is that Harry, who went through a huge trauma, is reacting
similarly. Yes, it's not quite the same, since he does want to see his
parents and connect with them is some way. But he has barely reached
that basic level of connectedness with his dead parents. It is still
so emotionally raw for him. It seems quite reasonable to me that at
this stage he would instinctively recoil from investigating his
family's history.  
Again, to return to Holocaust survivors - many started to think and
talk and write and remember only thirty or fourty years after. And
with that often came a renewed interest in familial history. It seems
that first you have to come to terms with the fact that your family
has been annihilated, and only then does it become bearable to think
of the family when the people were alive.

Naama 



 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 26 20:23:21 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:23:21 -0000
Subject: Harry's lack of curiosity
In-Reply-To: <9c9uv0+8d7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ca03p+s1id@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17747

Naama wrote:

> My feeling is that Harry, who went through a huge trauma, is 
reacting
> similarly. Yes, it's not quite the same, since he does want to see 
his
> parents and connect with them is some way. But he has barely reached
> that basic level of connectedness with his dead parents. It is still
> so emotionally raw for him. It seems quite reasonable to me that at
> this stage he would instinctively recoil from investigating his
> family's history.  
> Again, to return to Holocaust survivors - many started to think and
> talk and write and remember only thirty or fourty years after. And
> with that often came a renewed interest in familial history. It 
seems
> that first you have to come to terms with the fact that your family
> has been annihilated, and only then does it become bearable to think
> of the family when the people were alive.

Naama, this really helped me make sense of Harry.  Thanks.

It stimulated a few other thoughts.  Harry has had an explanatory 
story for his parents' absence for 10 years.  Whenever he thought of 
them, he had the car crash story--that's how he assimilated the 
difficult fact of having no parents.  Now that story has had to be 
thrown out, which is traumatic in itself.  On top of that, the story 
he now has (a) is more painful and frightening, (b) was told to him 
at the same time that he got a boatload of new stuff to process about 
himself, his family, and his world (i.e. the fact that the wizarding 
world exists, that he and they are wizards, that the Dursleys have 
been lying to him about his identity his entire life, etc.), and (c) 
is STILL incomplete.  

This last point must be really hard to take.  No wonder learning 
about Sirius Black's connection to them was such a blow; Harry 
thought he knew at last what happened to his parents, but then a year 
and a half later, he started to hear the details (literally, via the 
Dementors); shortly afterwards and by sheer accident, he learned a 
crucial part of the story that no one had seen fit to tell him.  A 
part, mind you, that even his worst enemy knew.  Right about now, he 
must be feeling as if he can't explore what happened to his parents 
without walking into a minefield.

I think my own response to the spilled secrets would be to grab 
Hagrid by the collar--uh, or whatever I could reach--and say "okay, I 
want the whole story now, and don't you dare leave out anything that 
I'm going to learn from *&#$%@ Draco Malfoy down the line, 
understand?"  But I can also understand the opposite reaction--to not 
want to ask any questions at all because heaven knows what other 
nasty secrets are hiding in that story.

Amy Z




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Apr 26 20:36:45 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:36:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's lack of curiosity
References: <9ca03p+s1id@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c0ce90$9d3b5e20$6149d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17748


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>

>
> I think my own response to the spilled secrets would be to grab
> Hagrid by the collar--uh, or whatever I could reach--and say "okay, I
> want the whole story now, and don't you dare leave out anything that
> I'm going to learn from *&#$%@ Draco Malfoy down the line,
> understand?"  But I can also understand the opposite reaction--to not
> want to ask any questions at all because heaven knows what other
> nasty secrets are hiding in that story.

Particularly when he's been forbidden to talk about his parents and punished
anytime he did ask questions.  I would think it would be an ingrained
reaction at this point not to ask questions...and to assume he might be
punished for asking them.

carole







From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Apr 26 22:01:38 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:01:38 -0000
Subject: Harry's lack of curiosity
In-Reply-To: <9ca03p+s1id@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ca5s2+rudn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17749


> 
> It stimulated a few other thoughts.  Harry has had an explanatory 
> story for his parents' absence for 10 years.  Whenever he thought of 
> them, he had the car crash story--that's how he assimilated the 
> difficult fact of having no parents.  Now that story has had to be 
> thrown out, which is traumatic in itself.  On top of that, the story 
> he now has (a) is more painful and frightening, (b) was told to him 
> at the same time that he got a boatload of new stuff to process 
about 
> himself, his family, and his world (i.e. the fact that the wizarding 
> world exists, that he and they are wizards, that the Dursleys have 
> been lying to him about his identity his entire life, etc.), and (c) 
> is STILL incomplete.  
> 
> This last point must be really hard to take.  No wonder learning 
> about Sirius Black's connection to them was such a blow; Harry 
> thought he knew at last what happened to his parents, but then a 
year 
> and a half later, he started to hear the details (literally, via the 
> Dementors); shortly afterwards and by sheer accident, he learned a 
> crucial part of the story that no one had seen fit to tell him.  A 
> part, mind you, that even his worst enemy knew.  Right about now, he 
> must be feeling as if he can't explore what happened to his parents 
> without walking into a minefield.
> 
> I think my own response to the spilled secrets would be to grab 
> Hagrid by the collar--uh, or whatever I could reach--and say "okay, 
I 
> want the whole story now, and don't you dare leave out anything that 
> I'm going to learn from *&#$%@ Draco Malfoy down the line, 
> understand?"  But I can also understand the opposite reaction--to 
not 
> want to ask any questions at all because heaven knows what other 
> nasty secrets are hiding in that story.
> 
> Amy Z

Hello - 

I think it was Carole (?) who stated my thoughts about why Harry 
doesn't ask too many questions about his parents - he is so used to 
not being able to ask anything that it is pretty much habit at this 
point.  There is another reason, I believe, as to why Harry doesn't 
ask about his parents.

Harry is not really one to make waves.  He doesn't enjoy (IMO) being 
famous, and often *thinks* things without saying them out loud.  He 
usually goes out of his way to be polite and to do the right thing and 
to not attract attention.  I think this is related to his pride, which 
really motivates him - to win at Quidditch, to defend his parents' 
honor, to not make up with Ron first...  He may perceive asking about 
his parents as a weakness.  Remember how annoyed he got at Rita 
Skeeter when she asked about what his parents would think about the 
Triwizard Tournament?  And when everyone teased him about crying all 
the time when he thought about his parents, but really he was doing 
anything but?  In fact, I can only remember one time Harry cried.  It 
was in SS at the end when Dumbledore came to visit him in the 
infirmary.  In GoF, he wanted to cry but wouldn't because other people 
were around.  Talk about keeping it in!

Okay, I must go now and talk to my sister who is going for her first 
wedding dress fitting tomorrow.  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Thu Apr 26 22:28:13 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:28:13 -0400
Subject: DE's and Harry's Scar
Message-ID: <000201c0cea0$792793e0$30f44e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17750

Andrea gave a nice explanation to my post. Do you have any idea why Harry's scar hurts? Could it be that Voldemort left something of himself inside of Harry?Also, the state of Voldemort ,was he a ghost form or something else? Any one's guess? My boys have been hitting me with all kinds of questions.
Betty also gave some nice points to my post. Same questions for her. She also brought out about Harry's relatives and their bones.
Philip mentions about counterspells. I have no doubt that there is one. It would have been nice if Harry could bring back someone under more pleasant terms than that spell of Voldemort's.
Mecki had me thinking, but is interesting to read someone else's POV. This will help me explain to my boys too. They ask me and I'm going to write down some of these to ask the group. There are so many of you with more knowledge of these books. 
We read the American books, all four, now we are on HP&PS. They picked up the differences with the slang already!
Thank you for your POV's and they will be put to good use.

Wanda The Witch


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Fri Apr 27 01:00:17 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 21:00:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] the other Mr. Potter (was Quidditch)
References: <9c9upr+7nlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE8C4A1.F9F01396@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17751



Amy Z wrote:

> I have got to hear about this!  DrPam, tell us more.  What do you
> think James was like, and for what reason?  Canon snippets, gut
> feelings, perhaps a secret wish to be grabbed and got gone with by
> James Potter?
>

    My goodness!  I didn't realize it until after I had written this
post, but the guy I'd really like to meet from the MWPP generation is
James.  I think he's probably the dead sexiest (pardon the tasteless
pun) of the group.  Why else would Snape hate him so.  I think Severus'
stab at Harry about James "strutting about with his friends and
admirers" in PoA tells us a lot about how James must have been viewed by
the rest of the students.  Couple that with Rosemerta's comments and I
think we can form a very positive picture.   I think James likely
embodied the best  of all the fellas--a sense of daring and recklessness
(like Sirius, but a little more tempered and controlled), wit and
sensitivity (like Lupin, without the tragic flaw).  Plus he's got
Quidditch talent and generally seems to have been a warm, likable guy.
So yes, I wouldn't object to a game of "qudditch" with old Jimmy ;)
Now, don't get me wrong, I like Harry a lot, but it's too bad he isn't
more like his dad.

drpam






From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Apr 27 01:07:19 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:07:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's lack of curiosity
In-Reply-To: <9ca03p+s1id@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cago7+2t8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17752

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > My feeling is that Harry, who went through a huge trauma, is 
> reacting
> > similarly. Yes, it's not quite the same, since he does want to 
see 
> his
> > parents and connect with them is some way. But he has barely 
reached
> > that basic level of connectedness with his dead parents. It is 
still
> > so emotionally raw for him. It seems quite reasonable to me that 
at
> > this stage he would instinctively recoil from investigating his
> > family's history.  

snip
 
Makes sense to me.  And add to that Harry's reluctance to confide in 
adults, so it's not surprising that he doesn't ask a lot of 
questions.  It's almost a "Which came first - the chicken or the 
egg"?" thing.  Harry's experience has shown him that he can't ask 
adults questions (life with the Dursleys) but that adults know more 
about him and his family than he knows, and won't necessarily tell 
him what he might want to know (Dursleys and various wizards).

> It stimulated a few other thoughts.  Harry has had an explanatory 
> story for his parents' absence for 10 years.  Whenever he thought 
of 
> them, he had the car crash story--that's how he assimilated the 
> difficult fact of having no parents.  Now that story has had to be 
> thrown out, which is traumatic in itself.  On top of that, the 
story 
> he now has (a) is more painful and frightening, (b) was told to him 
> at the same time that he got a boatload of new stuff to process 
about 
> himself, his family, and his world (i.e. the fact that the 
wizarding 
> world exists, that he and they are wizards, that the Dursleys have 
> been lying to him about his identity his entire life, etc.), and 
(c) 
> is STILL incomplete.  
> 
> This last point must be really hard to take.  No wonder learning 
> about Sirius Black's connection to them was such a blow; Harry 
> thought he knew at last what happened to his parents, but then a 
year 
> and a half later, he started to hear the details (literally, via 
the 
> Dementors); shortly afterwards and by sheer accident, he learned a 
> crucial part of the story that no one had seen fit to tell him.  A 
> part, mind you, that even his worst enemy knew.  Right about now, 
he 
> must be feeling as if he can't explore what happened to his parents 
> without walking into a minefield.
> 
snip
> Amy Z

OTOH, I think some of this is still driven by JKR's plot plans.  She 
has kept Sirius' interactions with Harry at a distance for the most 
part.  Relying on owl post would not be how you'd expect Harry to ask 
questions, and there is generally some other more immediate crisis at 
hand when the two of them meet face-to-face.  Also, with 
Snape's "accidental" revelation of Remus' lycanthropy, JKR has 
conveniently removed the only other close, living friend of the 
Potters from having frequent contact with Harry.  

Marianne 




From misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 27 01:44:08 2001
From: misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com (misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:44:08 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9cago7+2t8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cait8+vi3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17753

*delurks once and for all*

Forgive me if this has been hashed and rehashed over before.

Regarding Harry and his parents' absence: one of the things that 
really struck me while reading GoF was how Harry referred to his 
parents as "Mum" and "Dad" during the battle scene.  To me, that says 
something-- Harry must be, on some instinctual level, familiar with 
his parents.  Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has 
been assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his parents, 
and probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have been 
impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no idea 
what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, IIRC; 
did he picture that?  Did he think about what it would have been like 
if they had been alive all this time?  Most likely.  Did he think 
about (in his moodier moments) their deaths?  Probably.  

I wonder if perhaps Harry, when placed in certain situations (being 
bullied, etc.), thought about what would be different if his parents 
had been around, rather than the Dursleys... he might even have had 
an entire parallel universe roaming in his mind.

This might have only intensified upon arrival at Hogwarts, armed with 
his newfound (albeit minimal) information about his parents.  Perhaps 
he thinks about how he'd spend his holidays... and how he'd deal with 
the Slytherins... and what sort of letters would be sent... and the 
list goes on.

I don't think Harry would have called his parents "Mum" and "Dad" if 
he hadn't been intrinsically familiar with them.  And that says 
something about the relationship that would have been had between the 
three if circumstances had been different.  ^_^

On a related tangent...

Harry, who has never met his parents, calls them "Mum" and "Dad".  
Draco Malfoy, on the other hand, refers to his parents as "Mother" 
and "Father", people that he knows and sees frequently.  What does 
that say?    

--alicia/sue spinnet or suzielynn.*

*never sell yourself, or your talent, to anyone.  if you do, the 
success isn't real, because it isn't yours.*  --yay, i had a profound 
moment.  or maybe i didn't and found that in some obscure corner of 
the world.  anyway.






From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 03:04:00 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:04:00 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9cait8+vi3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9canj0+i9g0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17754

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., misanthropicsocialite at h... wrote:

Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has 
> been assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his 
parents, 
> and probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have 
been 
> impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no idea 
> what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, IIRC; 
> did he picture that? 

Perhaps his aunt had one or two pictures of the sister she disliked 
so much lying around. Perhaps he would also consider that he 
resembled his parents. 

 Did he think about what it would have been like 
> if they had been alive all this time?  Most likely.  Did he think 
> about (in his moodier moments) their deaths?  Probably.  
> 
> I wonder if perhaps Harry, when placed in certain situations (being 
> bullied, etc.), thought about what would be different if his 
parents 
> had been around, rather than the Dursleys... he might even have had 
> an entire parallel universe roaming in his mind.
> 

That sounds very likely/psychologically convincing. I think we'll get 
even more on this once JKR starts to tell us more about the 
mysterious surrounding that night, and to develop his parents' 
personalities. 

> 
> Harry, who has never met his parents, calls them "Mum" and "Dad".  
> Draco Malfoy, on the other hand, refers to his parents as "Mother" 
> and "Father", people that he knows and sees frequently.  What does 
> that say?    
> 

Probably it's supposed to show the stuffy, overly formal and cold 
relations of the Malfoy family. 

Charmian





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Apr 27 03:51:18 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:51:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9cait8+vi3h@eGroups.com>
References: <9cago7+2t8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426204847.00c27d80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17755

At 01:44 AM 4/27/01 +0000, misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com wrote:
>Harry, who has never met his parents, calls them "Mum" and "Dad".
>Draco Malfoy, on the other hand, refers to his parents as "Mother"
>and "Father", people that he knows and sees frequently.  What does
>that say?

And that's in the Third Person: Knowing the Malfoys, I wouldn't
be surprised if Draco was required by his parents to address
them directly as "Sir" and "Madam"...



                                                 -- Dave




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Apr 27 03:51:52 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:51:52 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9cait8+vi3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9caqco+3j2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17756

Sue wrote:
"*delurks once and for all*"

--It's nice to have you back!

"Regarding Harry and his parents' absence: one of the things that 
really struck me while reading GoF was how Harry referred to his 
parents as "Mum" and "Dad" during the battle scene.  To me, that says 
something-- Harry must be, on some instinctual level, familiar with 
his parents.  Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has 
been assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his parents, 
and probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have been 
impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no idea 
what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, IIRC; 
did he picture that?  Did he think about what it would have been like 
if they had been alive all this time?  Most likely.  Did he think 
about (in his moodier moments) their deaths?  Probably."

--I agree that Harry has to think about his parents often if not all 
the time, but no matter how much he thinks about them it still 
doesn't explain his complete lack of intrest from outside sources. Of 
course I'm not in Harry's situation so I don't know what he's 
feeling. I do know however that I THINK I would feel the opposite of 
Harry, wanting to know all I could in order to come to terms with 
such a terrible tragedy of the past. Then again I'm not Harry...

Another thing to think about is that every time so far in the canon 
when Harry has has some contact with his parents lives, be it the 
mirror in PS, Lupin and Sirius in PoA, or the wand order in GoF, it's 
always been important to the plot. That's why I find it difficult, 
difficult but not impossible, to believe that Harry's parents 
influence is affecting him everyday and it's never mentioned.

"I wonder if perhaps Harry, when placed in certain situations (being 
bullied, etc.), thought about what would be different if his parents 
had been around, rather than the Dursleys... he might even have had 
an entire parallel universe roaming in his mind."

--I'm sure of it. I mean doesn't everyone do this in some form or 
another? I know I do...


Scott




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Apr 27 03:55:16 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:55:16 -0700
Subject: Muggle-born - Evil Hufflepuffs/Good Slytherins - Remus - Dementors -  List Elves
Message-ID: <3AE8EDA3.14CA0C24@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17757

Ouroboros wrote:
> For some students, we get confirmation of whether they are
> wizarding or non wizarding  (Cedric, the Creeveys, etc.) but
> for more minor characters, we can't really say either way.
> (for example:  what about Cho?)

I personally believe that Cho is Muggle-born and her parents emigrated
from Hong Kong to England. I may be biased because there was a girl from
Hong Kong in my college dorm who was named Miao Chang. Despite having a
wonderful personal name pronounced Meow, she had a small dog rather than
a cat. By the way, does anyone know what religions are common among
people from Hong Kong? For some reason, all the people from Hong Kong
whom I know are Christians..

Vlatka wrote:
> However, all this does not mean that  Hufflepuffs cannot
> have evil potential.  Just like I do not think that all Slytherins
> are bad  ;-)

I had a new (to me) thought today! Despite the Sorting Hat's songs
saying that Hufflepuffs have loyalty and hard work, Ravenclaws are
studious, Slytherins are ambitious, Gryffindors are brave, whatever, we
were ALSO told that the Hat's purpose is to pick the students for each
House whom the Founder of that House would have picked if heesh was
still around. I suspect that the Founders were influenced by many
characteristics of the students when deciding which students to accept
into their own teaching. For example, charming people, people who bake
chocolate chip cookies, and people who look like one of the chooser's
old friends might be chosen despite their lack of (hard work)
(intelligence) (courage) (deviousness).

So, maybe ol' Salazar really did make a point of choosing only evil
children to be his students.

Mona wrote:
> Remus Lupin (whom I feel is the perfect man

very true

> and if he were a real person I don't know what I would do. lol)

You'd take a number and queue up with the rest of us.

> My question  is  do you feel that  Snape hates Lupin because of
> a) association with Black and Potter or
> b) because of his prejudice due to his  wolfishness/disability?

Both, but mostly the latter.

> Anyhow, I would love to see him brought back in book five

Yes! More Remus!

> and more fully developed with a love interest.

No! His love interest is ME, Sirius, or NO ONE!!!!

Heidi wrote:
> Of course they could be spirits, but if not, Dementors might
> be Lethifolds,  which are warded off with the patronus, or
> they could be, as we discussed, soulless humans.

We need for Nick to write JKR a letter asking about that.

Neil wrote:
> Simon (the man of many parts) - Elf Simey

Erm, many *spare* parts? Does he have an extra head or arm or something?

-
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 04:30:18 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 04:30:18 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9caqco+3j2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9caskq+t38k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17758

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Sue wrote:
> "*delurks once and for all*"
> 
> --It's nice to have you back!

I second this!

Sue:

>>Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has been 
assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his parents, and 
probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have been 
impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no idea 
what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, IIRC; 
did he picture that?  Did he think about what it would have been like 
if they had been alive all this time?  Most likely.  Did he think 
about (in his moodier moments) their deaths?  Probably.<<

Scott replied:
 
> --I agree that Harry has to think about his parents often if not 
all the time, but no matter how much he thinks about them it still 
doesn't explain his complete lack of intrest from outside sources. Of 
course I'm not in Harry's situation so I don't know what he's 
feeling. I do know however that I THINK I would feel the opposite of 
Harry, wanting to know all I could in order to come to terms with 
such a terrible tragedy of the past. Then again I'm not Harry...
<snip><

My mom died when I was eight.  I know, I wasn't an infant when it 
happened, but I think I have an idea of what goes on in a young kid's 
head when they've lost a parent.  I completely missed out on learning 
about my mom.  I have no idea what she was like as a child.  I only 
have little bits and pieces about what she was like as an adult, 
because she got sick when I was about 5 years old, and I don't have 
too many memories of her - she was in the hospital too much.  But 
here's the thing - I'm 26 years old, and my knowledge of her hasn't 
grown too much.  Why?  Because I don't know what to ask.  I don't 
know who to ask.  I'm afraid of hurting others, I'm afraid of hurting 
myself by asking for stories about her.  Her two sisters and brother 
are still alive and fairly local - I could always go to them.  But I 
don't.  My dad is still alive... but he can't tell me what she was 
like when she was at school.  Her schoolmates (for the most part) are 
still alive, and many of them still live in my hometown - I could ask 
them.  But I don't.  Maybe I just grew up with everyone saying, 
"Poor Jennifer, she's had to go through a lot," and then sort of 
holding me off at a distance - I never really got close to my mom's 
side of the family because she wasn't there to bring us together.  
Maybe I'm a little embarrassed - because I feel that I should have 
asked about her earlier, and they're going to wonder why I *still* 
have empty spots of knowledge.  I really don't know why I don't ask 
people what she was like.  But I wanted to explain that it isn't 
*that* unrealistic that Harry wouldn't ask what his parents were 
like.  I may be one of the minority, here, but I've acted just like 
Harry has.  And unless something happens to make Harry just burst out 
one day while he's with Sirius or Dumbledore or someone else he 
completely trusts, he'll probably never get the guts - it'll only get 
harder as he gets older.

Sue:
>> I wonder if perhaps Harry, when placed in certain situations 
(being bullied, etc.), thought about what would be different if his 
parents had been around, rather than the Dursleys... he might even 
have had an entire parallel universe roaming in his mind.<<

And Scott again:
 
> --I'm sure of it. I mean doesn't everyone do this in some form or 
another? I know I do...<

I still do.  Every once in a while, when I'm feeling introspective, I 
wonder how much of my life would have changed.  Would I have been one 
of those girls I always hated that talked about how they hated how 
unfair their mothers were (I always wanted to just stand there face 
to face with them and say "oh yeah?  Well how fair is it to NOT have 
one to bitch about??")?  Would my sister and I have been better 
friends?  Or better enemies?  Would I have gotten as close to my dad 
as I have?  What about me?  Would I be more outgoing?  I met my 
husband while I was at college - what if I'd chosen a different 
college?  I probably would have met someone utterly different, and my 
little girl wouldn't exist.  It's a terrible mix of "boy, that would 
have been great!" and "Holy-moly, I'm so glad that my life turned out 
this way..." which, of course, makes me feel guilty that I'm happy 
with my life as it is.  It's a hard thing to think about... but 
impossible to avoid.

Whew.  Sorry... I suppose this is swerving a bit off-topic, and I had 
considered posting it in OT-Chatter, but I thought about it, and as 
this post *may* provide some insight as to what Harry is going 
through, I thought it'd be more appropriate over here.

Jen (who bared a little of her personal life here, but hopes it's 
relevant to the discussion)






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 04:33:17 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 04:33:17 -0000
Subject: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
Message-ID: <9casqd+j74q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17759

I just received the complete audio version by Steven Fry, and I am 
happily listening to PS as I drive to and from work.  I had
previously heard all of Jim Dale more than once.  I was intrigued by 
the vehemence with which most posters attacked the Dale readings,
from what I had read.  Most, but not all of these pro-Fry, anti-Dale 
persons were from the U.K.  I therefore assume that: one, they are 
knowledgeable of the correct manner in which various British 
dialects are spoken; and two, they were exposed to the Fry version 
before they were exposed, if at all, to the Dale version. Admittedly, 
I have just begun to listen to Steven Fry, but here are some of my 
impressions so far, for what they are worth.

I prefer to listen to the work as originally written by JKR, so Fry 
wins there.  For the reading of exposition, narrative, description, 
etc., I prefer Fry's interpretation.  For dialogue, so far I prefer 
Dale to Fry.  It is not simply a matter of Dale's reading in
different voices, although I do like what he has done with those 
voices.  Fry attempts to use different voices as well, although he is 
inconsistent in his application, and I cannot tell when he is 
switching characters. If he had simply read the book in his own 
reading voice, irrespective of the character speaking, I feel that he 
would have done better. Our own fertile imaginations would have 
supplied all the voice-acting necessary.  However, since he himself 
has chosen to use different voices for different characters, it is 
incumbent upon him to do so in a clear and entertaining manner.  I 
feel that in this he is inferior to Jim Dale.

I know that there are some other issues with Mr. Dale, such as his 
using a particular regional dialect inappropriate to the character 
speaking, in some fans' opinions.  I am an American, and I cannot 
appreciate these fine distinctions when I hear the reading.  I would 
be delighted if anyone could enlighten me with regard to these
specific issues.

As I get further into the canon as read by Fry, I will report again, 
unless the response to this report is overwhelmingly negative.

Haggridd




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Apr 27 04:35:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 21:35:38 -0700
Subject: Hermione's Mirror of Erised
Message-ID: <3AE8F719.278D6438@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17760

I came up with three guesses as to what schoolgirl Hermione sees in the
Mirror of Erised:

1) She sees herself, in her twenties and in the wizarding world,
defending her doctoral dissertation in the lecture hall of the guild
house of one of the academic guilds, answering trick questions so
skillfully that the numerous audience members all applaud .... and,
incidentally, she is looking just gorgeous while wearing her hair loose
like a lion's man, very little make-up, and a severely business-like
dark blue robe.

2) She sees herself, in her thirties and in the Muggle world, being
awakened by the telephone call from the Nobel Prize people .... and,
incidentally, despite just having been awakened, her hair is as neat as
if it had just been brushed.

3) She sees herself, at any age and in any world, with free run of a
library that contains every book and all knowledge (like the one Lori
invented for IDF). *I* might start with a nice readable translation of
ANATOMY OF MELANCHOLY and URNE BURIALL, and how about the lost plays of
Christopher Marlowe, and an accurate account of how Aurvandil's toe got
into heaven....

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 05:55:35 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:55:35 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Full Moon
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426102005.03aa6f00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cb1kn+jgc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17762

Maybe ?????? 
Snape has been working on the potion. He has created a version 
that reduces the effects to direct moon exposure. Although Lupin  
did not take any that night he may of had enough still in his 
system. Okay maybe not.  

------------- 
At 03:36 AM 4/26/01 +0000, mdartagnan at y... wrote:
>The only thing that *might* explain why on PoA he transforms into 
a wolf until the moonlight touches him might be the time at which 
the change takes place. Maybe when he's indoors, the change takes 
place until the Lunar influence is just too strong to be avoided ?
maybe when the Moon reaches its zenith (eh... is this word well 
written?) or something like that. But being directly exposed to 
moonlight might trigger an immediate change ?something Remus 
clearly forgot after many Full Moon indoors, or maybe he thought 
the night would remain cloudy for still some hours.
> 

Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> Since astronomically speaking "Full Moon" is an instantaneous 
event (when the moon is in exact opposition to the sun).  Your 
theory "Lunar influence" makes sense.  Maybe out in the open on 
a clear night he transform when the moon is 95% Full, but the moon 
has to be 98%or 99% Full to break through barriers like walls and 
clouds.
>> Dave 

I would also like to thank Gwen for her post, I knew I should 
have typed just after sundown instead of at sundown. However, I 
did not realize how much later it was that Lupin saw the moon. 

Bugg - who is still trying to help JKR out.   

-------------- 
Gwen wrote:
> "[Hermione] looked nervously over her shoulder into the 
depths of the forest. The sun was setting now." 
> 
> They move to the forest to hide buckbeak better. They witness 
Sirius dragging Ron into the willow, and watch as their past 
selves follow.
> 
> A few minutes later, Lupin comes through:
> 
> "they saw another figure sprinting down the stone steps and 
haring toward the Willow. Harry looked up at the sky. Clouds 
were obscuring the moon completely."
> 
> So the sun was down and the moon was up when he came across 
the first time.
> Sorry.
> 
> Over the next hour, Harry and Hermione wait. The only reference 
to the moon is that "The moon drifted in and out of sight behind the 
shifting clouds." 
> 
> Then, in agreement with the previous description of this episode
(from Chapter Twenty), the crew comes out of the Willow.  In 20, 
it's described thus: "The grounds were very dark now; the only light 
came from the distant windows of the castle."
> 
> "And then--
> "A cloud shifted. There were suddenly dim shadows on the ground.
Their party was bathed in moonlight."
> 
> And in Twenty-One: "[Harry] glanced up at the sky. Any moment 
now, that cloud was going to move aside and show the moon...."
> 
> "The moon slid out from behind its cloud. They saw the tiny 
figures across the grounds stop. Then they saw the movement--
> "'There goes Lupin,' Hermione whispered."
..... 

> Oh, well. Maybe it really is a Flint, but if it is, it's a very 
carefully constructed and consistent one (given her attention to 
timing and making sure no direct moonlight hit him prior to the 
Change).
> 
> Gwendolyn Grace 









From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 06:18:02 2001
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draco Malfoy sighting/Congratulations Proud Parents
In-Reply-To: <9cb1kn+jgc3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010427061802.5376.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17763


 I was at a real estate seminar this evening, minding
my own business,taking notes, trying to get something
out of this course. About ten minutes into the lesson,
the door opens and everyone turns around to stare at
the late-comer,in sauntered Draco. My jaw dropped and
I just stared. I know he had to have noticed but I
could not help myself.He then proceeded to sit
directly in front of me! Even with all of the
dicriptions of Draco, I had'nt put a face(I had a
genral idea)on him until that very moment.Just thought
i'd share,got a little excited there,had to tell
someone. Congratulations to the new parents,you have a
wonderous time ahead of you.


Laila

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 27 07:45:43 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:45:43 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9canj0+i9g0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cb837+emrg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17764

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., misanthropicsocialite at h... wrote:
> 
> Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has 
> > been assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his 
> parents, 
> > and probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have 
> been 
> > impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no 
idea 
> > what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, 
IIRC; 
> > did he picture that? 
> 
> Perhaps his aunt had one or two pictures of the sister she disliked 
> so much lying around. Perhaps he would also consider that he 
> resembled his parents. 
> 

The first time Harry ever saw his Mum (and Dad) was in the Mirror of 
Erised:
"A woman standing right behind his reflection was smiling at him and 
waving... She was a very pretty woman. She had dark red hair and her 
eyes - her eyes  are just like mine, Harry thought..." (PS; 153)

Naama




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Apr 27 07:46:05 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:46:05 -0000
Subject: Muggle-born - Evil Hufflepuffs/Good Slytherins 
In-Reply-To: <3AE8EDA3.14CA0C24@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9cb83t+1vle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17765

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
By the way, does anyone know what religions are common among
> people from Hong Kong? For some reason, all the people from Hong 
Kong
> whom I know are Christians..

I know quite a few people from Hong Kong, and as you say, most are 
Christians - Roman Catholics, to be precise.  In fact, many wealthy 
families send their children over here to be educated in 
English/roman Catholic private schools.

> Vlatka wrote:
> > However, all this does not mean that  Hufflepuffs cannot
> > have evil potential.  Just like I do not think that all Slytherins
> > are bad  ;-)
> 
> I had a new (to me) thought today! Despite the Sorting Hat's songs
> saying that Hufflepuffs have loyalty and hard work, Ravenclaws are
> studious, Slytherins are ambitious, Gryffindors are brave, 
whatever, we
> were ALSO told that the Hat's purpose is to pick the students for 
each
> House whom the Founder of that House would have picked if heesh was
> still around. I suspect that the Founders were influenced by many
> characteristics of the students when deciding which students to 
accept
> into their own teaching. 

I was wondering recently how muggle-born children who were sorted 
into Slytherin would be treated by their peers.  I came to the 
conclusion that as Slytherin valued pure bloods, that it was unlikely 
that there would be any muggle borns in his house.  On the other 
hand, Voldemort himself was sorted into Slytherin, and he isn't 
pureblood, so this doesn't really follow, unless his ancestry 
overcame muggle blood.  So, does Slytherin value other things 
(cunning, ambition, pure evil) above blood?

Catherine




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 27 08:56:01 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:56:01 -0700
Subject: religion in Hong Kong and Evil Hufflepuffs/Good Slytherins)
References: <9cb83t+1vle@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012c01c0cef7$e2c9e4e0$5c0ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17766

Hello,

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> By the way, does anyone know what religions are common among
> > people from Hong Kong? For some reason, all the people from Hong
> Kong
> > whom I know are Christians..

Here's what the Encyclopedia Britannica says:

*****
The religious persuasions of the people of Hong Kong are as various as their
languages and dialects. Among the Chinese, followers of Buddhism and Taoism
by far outnumber other groups, and the numerous Buddhist and Taoist temples
and monasteries, some centuries old, play an important role in the daily
life of the average Chinese. Although each temple is generally dedicated to
one or two deities, it is not unusual to find images of a number of other
gods or goddesses inside. For a fishing and trading port, the most
significant deities are those associated with the ocean and the weather,
such as T'ien Hau, the goddess of heaven and protector of seafarers, who is
honoured by temples at virtually every fishing harbour. Other leading
deities include Kuan-yin (Avalokitesvara), the Buddhist goddess of mercy;
Hung Shing, god of the South Seas and a weather prophet; and Wong Tai Sin, a
Taoist saint and deity. Christians constitute some half-million people,
divided roughly equally between Roman Catholics and some 50 Protestant
denominations and sects such as Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, and Methodist.
There are also small numbers of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and Jews.
*****

But Taoist/Buddhist isn't exactly what's happening.  It's more like,
believing in the gods/saints without believing in the religion itself, or
not treating it as a religion.  I think most people wouldn't call themselves
Taoist or Buddhist, but they will tell you which specific saints/gods they
worship and which rules they observe.  And even if they believe in the
Buddha, most don't believe in Buddhism.  Am I making sense?  It's a
rather...pragmatic attitude about the whole religion thing.  Actually, this
is part of the reason I *never* understood the passion that many people feel
about religion, especially why people fight wars over something as...meager
as religion.

> I know quite a few people from Hong Kong, and as you say, most are
> Christians - Roman Catholics, to be precise.  In fact, many wealthy
> families send their children over here to be educated in
> English/roman Catholic private schools.

Well, I'm born and raised in Hong Kong, and I have to ask, what the heck are
you talking about?  Most importantly, where do you live?  I think most of
the HK people you've met are Christian because, forgive me if I'm wrong,
you're Christian yourself.  It's true that most of the top schools *are*
Christian (and Catholic at that), since they're founded by missionaries (in
HK, at least; I don't know the situation in USA), but most students don't
end up believing in the religion of the school.  Incidentally, back during
the fifties/sixties, most of the teachers in these schools are nuns and
priests (the high school my dad attended has Irish Catholic priests, which
means he speaks English with an accent that's an odd mixture of Irish and
Chinese; and now also Californian).

Kids are sent into certain schools not because the schools are of a certain
religion, but because of the schools' reputation; 'cause, trust me, grades
are way more important than religion.  It just happens that most top private
schools *are* Catholic.  And most families only need to be middle to
upper-middle class to send their kids over here, though more often for
college than for high school.

> overcame muggle blood.  So, does Slytherin value other things
> (cunning, ambition, pure evil) above blood?

Perhaps the wealth of V's family overcame the Slytherin's aversion against
his blood?  Maybe the fact that his mother was a witch was enough.  Or maybe
they just didn't know.  People know Hermione and other students are
Muggle-born because they tell others.  What if V's so ashamed of it that he
made up stories about his background?  If not stories, then perhaps at least
lies of omission?  The teachers would know, but maybe they don't divulge
such information?  It could happen...  Or perhaps his fellow Slytherins just
didn't care because Tom is such a great boy.

little Alex




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 25 23:51:44 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:51:44 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Paradoxes that make my head swim...
Message-ID: <LAW2-F64hVOJwnzsLqI00003dd9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17767

Brian wrote:


>Hi all,
>
>I'm struggling with two instances that I just can't seem to come to
>grips with...help me:
<snip if Riddle had succeeded in Cos, wouldn't he exist alongside V
and time-travel and predestination query>

Your questions are better than any possible answers could be.  For what it's 
worth, I think Riddle *would* have existed as a separate entity, perhaps 
subject to some constraints, so lucky he didn't.  And yes, there are always 
problems with time-travel.  It's clear Harry and Hermione are taking a *big* 
risk (as is Dumbledore).  The books centre around the events of the night 
Harry, as a baby, mysteriously survived V's curse and sent it back to him.  
In each book, he finds out a little more, and relives a little more - 
perhaps he will actually travel back to that time, and that will prove to 
have been instrumental - I can't wait to find out.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri Apr 27 14:58:46 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:58:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Mirror of Erised
References: <3AE8F719.278D6438@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3AE98925.E04DA394@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17769



Catlady wrote:

> I came up with three guesses as to what schoolgirl Hermione sees in the
> Mirror of Erised:

My vote on what she would see is thus: herself with friends.

Hermione, my fave character, has always struck me as being very lonley before she came to Hogwarts. She had her parents, but I doubt she had any friends.

Therefore, I believe that when she looked in to the mirror of Erised, I believe she would see herself with friends, perhaps Harry and Ron, and that she wouldn't be lonley anymore.

Make sense?

Hugs
Jamieson
--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Apr 27 18:29:57 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:29:57 -0400
Subject: Harry's resilience (was  Re: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posth umous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity))
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8E7F@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 17770

Sue wrote:
> 
> >>Although it isn't pictorally represented by JKR, it has been 
> assumed by most readers that Harry *has* thought of his parents, and 
> probably a substantial amount over the years-- it would have been 
> impossible not to.  But *what* did he think about?  He had no idea 
> what they looked like before Hagrid explained the situation, IIRC; 
> did he picture that?  Did he think about what it would have been like 
> if they had been alive all this time?  Most likely.  Did he think 
> about (in his moodier moments) their deaths?  Probably.<<
> 
Scott replied:
>  
> > --I agree that Harry has to think about his parents often if not 
> all the time, but no matter how much he thinks about them it still 
> doesn't explain his complete lack of intrest from outside sources. 
> <snip><
> 

I'm going into the WayBack machine for my response to this - all the way to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/828 (message 828. We're
now at message 17770. Gack.)

Way way back in September, there was a discussion about abuse and resiliant
children - the concept of a resiliant child is one who has multiple and
severe risks in their lives but can nonetheless develop into "confident,
competent, and caring" teens and adults. 
Resiliant children have certain characteristics/outside support factors (see
the bottom of this post).

The presence of at least one caring person--someone who conveys an attitude
of compassion, who understands that no matter how awful a child's behavior,
the child is doing the best he or she can given his or her
experience--provides support for healthy development and learning. This
person can be a parent who was in a child's life at one point, but later was
separated from the child. Even a permannent separation at a young age
(between twelve and 18 months) can provide this "caring person" support
factor, because the toddler has memories of the parent and the loving
environment, which stay in the child's subconscious, and even in the
conscious mind, longer than a lay adult would suspect. Studies show that
three and four year olds can remember being a year old, and the things they
did or played with, or the people they knew. Even if a six or seven year old
cannot concretely remember actions and playmates from when they were five
years younger, those memories have become part of their subconscious. 

As I wrote back in Septepmerb, I assume that for his first 15 months, Harry
had a terrificly stable upbringing, great, loving parents (ok, maybe James
spent time away from home on anti-voldemort things...) and a lot of love at
home.

Then, boom, things go wrong.

We next see him almost ten years later, sleeping in a cuboard, but able to
visit the rest of the house.

And he's not horrible. Why?

Is it the whole Cinderella thing, where she's just so inherently good that
the horribleness of her situation doesn't reduce her unfailing goodness?

Possibly - I mean, this part of the story is the closest to traditional
fairy tales (but then again, in the traditional Perrault and Grimm
cinderella stories, she had her father until he was somewhere between 5 and
9) - but there might be another explanation. 

My pet theory is that even if he doesn't remember it, Harry's magical
abilities allowed him to "improve" things in the cuboard until his memories
of his parents & his prior "life"
started to fade away.

Babies remember things - you spend enough time with a 13 or 15 month old,
and you see that even if they haven't done something or played with a toy or
seen a book for 2, 3, even 4 months, they'll remember it when they see it.
They're generally walking and talking, and unless Hagrid gave him a little
sleeping draught, Harry was a pretty good sleeper at 15 months.  And if they
have the personality for it, babies play on their own better than they play
with others. And if you're a wizard baby, and you're spending every night in
a crib in a dark room, you'll amuse yourself by making the nightlight flash
on & off, by sending your blanket flying around the room, by climbing out
ofthe crib (yes, at that age, they do!) and going into the box of old toys
of Dudley's and playing with them. 

Even if 10 year old harry has no memories of his parents, 3, and maybe even
4 year old Harry did - and that probably helped a lot with keeping him on a
more even keel than he would've been if his parents had been killed when he
was, say, 3 months old.

Other posts from Penny and Peg, who aren't here at the moment, are pretty
interesting for those who want more perspectives on this issue - try message
#s 836, 837 

And of course, this thread is what made me initially start thinking about
Draco's homelife and sketching the outline of a fanfiction where Draco's
resiliance is, well, not so good, in part because, unlike Harry, Draco (in
my universe) has never had unconditionally loving, attached parents ...and
we know what happened to me because of that! (for newbies who haven't seen
mention of it before, I'm in the middle of a work in progress fanfiction
focusing on Draco Malfoy, which is a *missing scenes* story that gives some
explanations for his behaviour in canon)

Sue:
> >> I wonder if perhaps Harry, when placed in certain situations 
> (being bullied, etc.), thought about what would be different if his 
> parents had been around, rather than the Dursleys... he might even 
> have had an entire parallel universe roaming in his mind.<<
> 
> And Scott again:
>  
> > --I'm sure of it. I mean doesn't everyone do this in some form or 
> another? I know I do...<
 
And Jennifer wrote:

> I still do.  Every once in a while, when I'm feeling introspective, I 
> wonder how much of my life would have changed.  Would I have been one 
> of those girls I always hated that talked about how they hated how 
> unfair their mothers were (I always wanted to just stand there face 
> to face with them and say "oh yeah?  Well how fair is it to NOT have 
> one to bitch about??")?  

Silver:-) has a new fanfiction up (it's slash, natch) where Draco says
something similar to Harry (in that fic, they've been dating for a while)
and Harry replies in a way that is similar to Jennifer's thoughts


And now.......
The Factors:

Social competence includes qualities such as responsiveness, especially the
ability to elicit positive responses from others; flexibility, including the
ability to move between different cultures; empathy; communication skills;
and a sense of humor. 
Problem-solving skills encompass the ability to plan; to be resourceful in
seeking help from others; and to think critically, creatively, and
reflectively. 
In the development of a critical consciousness, a reflective awareness of
the structures of oppression (be it from an alcoholic parent, an insensitive
school, or a racist society) and creating strategies for overcoming them has
been key. 
Autonomy is having a sense of one's own identity and an ability to act
independently and to exert some control over one's environment, including a
sense of task mastery, internal locus of control, and self-efficacy. 
The development of resistance (refusing to accept negative messages about
oneself) and of detachment (distancing oneself from dysfunction) serves as a
powerful protector of autonomy. Lastly, resilience is manifested in having a
sense of purpose and a belief in a bright future, including goal direction,
educational aspirations, achievement motivation, persistence, hopefulness,
optimism, and spiritual connectedness. 



From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Fri Apr 27 20:30:06 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:30:06 -0000
Subject: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
In-Reply-To: <9caqco+3j2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cckse+hn67@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17771


 Scott wrote (and others voiced similar opinions):> 
> --I agree that Harry has to think about his parents often if not all 
> the time, but no matter how much he thinks about them it still 
> doesn't explain his complete lack of intrest from outside sources. Of 
> course I'm not in Harry's situation so I don't know what he's 
> feeling. I do know however that I THINK I would feel the opposite of 
> Harry, wanting to know all I could in order to come to terms with 
> such a terrible tragedy of the past. Then again I'm not Harry...
> 
"Hey, Potter!  Find out anything NEW about your parents in that library 
book, then?  I mean, anything all the rest of us didn't already KNOW?"
"Poor, pathetic Potter.  Gotta find out about HIS family from a book."
"Trying to figure out who you are, then?  Why don't you let ME tell 
you?"

Really, though, do we actually see "poor little Harry" sitting in the 
library trying to read up on his background?  People would find out, 
and that would call more attention to his predicament (by the folks who 
care and the folks who'd use it against him).  I don't think he can 
afford too much curiosity right now.  All the times he's been in close 
contact with Dumbledore, who might be able to tell him things about his 
past, there have been pressing matters of the present going on that he 
needed/wanted information about.  Do we see Harry, some evening or free 
period, waiting outside the entrance to Dumbledore's office so that he 
can ask for a "story" about his parents?  What explanation would he 
give Snape if that gentlewizard happened to catch him?

Hagrid might tell him something more, but talking about Lily and James 
always seems to make Hagrid emotional, and the other two of the trio 
are usually with him when he sees Hagrid anyway.

The first time Harry was in Flourish & Blotts he didn't know he and his 
family were in books (Hermione told him on the train).
The next time he was in, he had just gotten back from Knockturn Alley, 
and then came the the interactions with Lockhart and Lucius/Arthur 
(brawl).

His third trip, there were the monster books to distract, and, more 
importantly, the "dog" on the cover of that divination book that looked 
like the one he'd seen before he fell in front of the bus.  He was also 
busy enjoying new freedom, and probably didn't think of "depressing" 
thoughts like getting a book about his parents.

He didn't go the 4th year (to F&B, I mean).  I really don't see him 
pulling Molly aside and saying, "You know, when you get my schoolbooks, 
I'd really appreciate it if you picked up a couple books that mention 
my family for me."

I think when he can find out from someone he trusts and is comfortable 
with he'll ask (in private).  I'm thinking it will be Sirius he asks 
(or Remus, if he's back in the picture).  When no other danger is 
"imminent", and noone else is around, I think he'll ask what he wants 
to know.  

There's also the chance that he'll get some time to himself in F&B 
where he can pick up a couple of books to stick in his trunk - but 
there's always the worry there that someone else in the shop will see 
"poor Harry" buying the books and know (and tell everyone) why.

That's my take on the issue, anyway.
a.





From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Apr 27 20:30:22 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:30:22 -0000
Subject: Harry's resilience (was  Re: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posth umous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity))
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8E7F@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9ccksu+enba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17772


> Way way back in September, there was a discussion about abuse and 
resiliant
> children - the concept of a resiliant child is one who has multiple 
and
> severe risks in their lives but can nonetheless develop into 
"confident,
> competent, and caring" teens and adults. 
> Resiliant children have certain characteristics/outside support 
factors (see
> the bottom of this post).
> 
> The presence of at least one caring person--someone who conveys an 
attitude
> of compassion, who understands that no matter how awful a child's 
behavior,
> the child is doing the best he or she can given his or her
> experience--provides support for healthy development and learning. 
This
> person can be a parent who was in a child's life at one point, but 
later was
> separated from the child. Even a permannent separation at a young 
age
> (between twelve and 18 months) can provide this "caring person" 
support
> factor, because the toddler has memories of the parent and the 
loving
> environment, which stay in the child's subconscious, and even in the
> conscious mind, longer than a lay adult would suspect. Studies show 
that
> three and four year olds can remember being a year old, and the 
things they
> did or played with, or the people they knew. Even if a six or seven 
year old
> cannot concretely remember actions and playmates from when they were 
five
> years younger, those memories have become part of their 
subconscious. 
> 
> As I wrote back in Septepmerb, I assume that for his first 15 
months, Harry
> had a terrificly stable upbringing, great, loving parents (ok, maybe 
James
> spent time away from home on anti-voldemort things...) and a lot of 
love at
> home.
> 
> Then, boom, things go wrong.
> 
> We next see him almost ten years later, sleeping in a cuboard, but 
able to
> visit the rest of the house.
> 
> And he's not horrible. Why?

Hello - 
I think one of the other reasons that Harry is not developing into an 
insecure git is because as he was growing up with the dreadful 
Dursleys, he disliked them as much as they disliked him.  Why is that 
important?  Well, Harry was able to comfort himself by remembering 
that he was different from them (they never let him forget that).  He 
seems to me to be the kind of person who can take a step back and be 
objective about other people, and he sees the Dursleys for what they 
are.  Had the Dursleys taken him in as a baby and lavished their 
affections (and money) on him, he'd probably be spoiled like Dudley 
and wouldn't necessary have hoped to have been rescued from them like 
he hoped for in the beginning of SS.

When you are able to take a step back from a situation you don't like, 
you can then say to yourself "I don't want to be like that".  My 
boyfriend did that as a child when he had a stuttering problem which 
prevented him from being able to communicate with his abusive mother.  
He instead was able to think about his family and watch them closely 
and realize that he did not have to turn out the same way.  I think 
Harry is like that.  Since he was left alone so often and ignored when 
he was with the Dursleys, all he could do was watch, learn and think 
"I'm not like them and I don't want to be".  He became what they are  
not - polite, generous, open-minded, and empathic.

Did that make sense?

--jenny from ravenclaw*****




From landers at email.unc.edu  Fri Apr 27 20:52:54 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:52:54 -0400
Subject: De's and Harry's Scar
References: <988403443.1885.6924.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AE9DC20.254562AA@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17773

>    From: "Roy & Wanda Mallett" <wr7238 at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: DE's and Harry's Scar
>
> Andrea gave a nice explanation to my post. Do you have any idea why Harry's scar hurts? Could it be that Voldemort left something of himself inside of Harry?Also, the state of Voldemort ,was he a ghost form or something else? Any one's guess?
> I don't know why Harry's scar hurts.  Since no one has survived adave kedarra before, no one knows what happens when you do.  It may be a remnent of the curse.  There is some canonical evidence to describe Voldemort's state until his rebirthing.
> Paraphrasing from book 1:"See what I have become?  Meer shadow and vapor.  I have form only when I can share another's body."  OR something like that.  From book four: "I was less than spirit...less than the meanest ghost...." I don't know if we have a name for what Voldemort was between his attempt
> on Harry and his rebirth.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Apr 27 23:22:54 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:22:54 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew (filk)
Message-ID: <9ccv0f+kjt2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17774

Pettigrew (from PoA, Chap.19)

Dedicated to Amy Z

(To the tune of Peggy Sue)

(The Scene: The Shrieking Shack. SIRIUS BLACK & REMUS LUPIN are about 
to "out" Scabbers as the supposedly deceased Peter Pettigrew, before 
the skeptical eyes of Harry, Ron and Hermione)

BLACK
When I knew
It was you
I took a vow that I'd pursue
You, Peter 
Pete Pettigrew-rew-rew 
Rew-Rew-Rew 
The time has come to bid that Scabbers gig adieu 

BLACK & LUPIN
Pettigrew, Pettigrew, Harry, Harry, Harry, do not miscontrue
What we are about to do, I'm/Black's true-blue, 
Peter killed your folks, and he left your life askew 

LUPIN
You framed Black 
With a sneak attack
But I'll proclaim I've got his back
So this time 
Pete Pettigrew-rew-rew 
You are through-ough-ough
You must pay the price for serving You-Know-Who

BLACK & LUPIN 
Pettigrew, Pettigrew, you know you're long overdue
Your human form to renew, yes it's true
Oh well its time to leave your 12-year petting zoo
An Animagic transformation we'll now view

(Pointing their wands, in a flash of blue-white light, Scabbers' form 
is replaced by that of Peter Pettigrew)

     - CMC
    




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 27 23:41:14 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:41:14 -0000
Subject: (was: Lots of Snape Stuff)V. & Potions
In-Reply-To: <9c4ajm+u8mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cd02q+a92r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17775

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:


> Someone else mentioned Snape's work with potions.  I too believe 
that 
> is what Snape's role as a Voldemort follower was. He was Voldy's 
> potion master. Though I don't lean toward *Snape went back to the 
> DE's*, I do believe Voldemort might give Sev a second chance.  
> Something tells me that potions will end up playing a large role 
and 
> who better to have on your side than one of the best? Oh, I also 
> think potions has already played a large role that we haven't seen 
> yet.

Potions seems to be one of the most important subject already and 
plays a large role in the plot twist of CoS, PoA & GoF.  So, I 
wouldn't be surprise if it plays a major role in the final showdown.

CoS: Polyjuice.
PoA: Wolfsbane Potion
GoF: Polyjuice again.  Didn't Voldie come back with a potion?  (It 
certainly involves a cauldron.)
Come to think of it.  It's all Percy's fault ... if Wormtail has 
bought a cheap, imported cauldron with thin bottom, the bottom may 
have fallen off. :-)




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 01:51:31 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:51:31 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
Message-ID: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17776

I am weary. I got the forwarded letter from my cousin. Don't read the
following text if you're still smarting from the Richard Abannes fun.
BUT, I posted this for a reason.

Some of you may have received this letter before. Some of you may, in
the future. Especially active Christians with well-meaning friends.
Sooo, I've included the letter so you'll recognize it. And so that you
can make intelligent answer, when and if you see it, or hear it
referenced, know that the source of the so-called quotes and interview
are the Onion. A satire. Fiction.

I responded to my cousin and all her addressees. I wanted to arm all of
you with the truth, in case you get a similar email from someone you had
previously believed could think.

Here's the Onion's home URL: http://www.theonion.com/
Here's the Harry Potter article:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html

Aside from the sad fact that some people believe this is an actual news
item, it's pretty funny. Again, just wanted to give any of you, who
might get this letter or some variant, the ability to refute it.

--Amanda

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Harry Potter Books
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:45:52 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/01 3:38:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Tulsastar
writes:

<< 
 Here is an interesting email I recieved from a church friend.  I heard
that 
the books were not good, but this gave a good reason why.
  
 These are books our school teachers are suggesting the children read,
they 
 encourage them to read them.  Parents think they are wonderful.  Let's
check 
 them out before we let our children read something that may change
their 
 lives for ever.  As  Grandparents we are very concerned about what goes
into 
 the minds of our precious Grandchildren.  What happened to Bible
Stories???? 
  
 I guess they were put out of our schools the same time God was put
out.   
 Let's turn things around parents, before it is too late.    Judy 
 
 
 <<  > Subject: Harry Potter Books 
 > 
 > "Jesus died because He was weak and stupid". 
 >  This is a quote from 6 year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC, after 
 >  reading the HARRY POTTER BOOKS! 
 > 
 >  The following is an email sent for the American Family Association, 
 >  which is VERY disturbing, to say the least. Please forward to all
email 
 >  contacts, especially Christians and Pastors. 
 > 
 >  Dear Christian, This is the most evil thing I have laid my eyes on
in 10 
 >  years ... and no one seems to understand its threat. 
 > 
 >  The Harry Potter books are THE NUMBER ONE selling children's books
in 
 >  the nation today. Just look at any Barns & Noble or Waldenbooks 
 >  storefront. 
 > 
 >  Go to Amazon.com and read the reviews. Hear the touting by educators
and 
 >  even Christian teachers about how "It's great to see the youth so 
 >  eagerly embracing the reading experience!" 
 > 
 >  Harry Potter is the creation of a former UK English teacher who
promotes 
 >  witchcraft and Satanism. Harry is a 13 year old 'wizard.' 
 > 
 >  Her creation openly blasphemes Jesus and God and promotes sorcery, 
 >  seeking revenge upon anyone who upsets them by giving you examples
(even 
 >  the sources with authors and titles) of spells, rituals, and demonic 
 >  powers. 
 > 
 >  I think the problem is that parents have not reviewed the material.
The 
 >  name seems harmless enough... Harry Potter. But that is where it all 
 >  ends. Let me give you a few quotes from some of the influenced
readers 
 >  themselves: 
 > 
 >  "The Harry Potter books are cool, 'cause they teach you all about
magic 
 >  and how you can use it to control people and get revenge on your 
 >  enemies" said Hartland, WI, 10 year old Craig Nowell, a recent
convert 
 >  to the New Satanic Order Of The Black Circle. "I want to learn the 
 >  Cruciatus Curse, to make my muggle science teacher suffer for giving
me 
 >  a D." (A 'muggle' is an unbeliever of magic.) 
 > 
 >  Or how about the REALLY young and innocent impressionable mind of a
6 
 >  year old when asked about her favorite character: 
 > 
 >  "Hermione is my favorite, because she's smart and has a kitty," said
6 
 >  year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC. "Jesus died because He was
weak 
 >  and stupid." 
 > 
 >  And here is dear Ashley, a 9 year old, the typical average age
reader of 
 >  Harry Potter: "I used to believe in what they taught us at Sunday 
 >  School," said Ashley, conjuring up an ancient spell to summon
Cerebus, 
 >  the three-headed hound of hell. "But the Harry Potter books showed
me 
 >  that magic is real, something I can learn and use right now, and
that 
 >  the Bible is nothing but Boring lies." 
 > 
 >  DOES THIS GET YOUR ATTENTION? 
 > 
 >  If not, how about a quote from High Priest of Satanism: "Harry is an 
 >  absolute godsend to our cause," said High Priest Egan of the First 
 >  Church Of Satan in Salem, MA, An organization like ours thrives on
new 
 >  blood no pun intended and we've had more applicants than we can
handle 
 >  lately. And, of course, practically all of them are virgins, which
is 
 >  gravy." (Since 1995, open applicants to Satan worship has increased
from 
 >  around 100,000 to now... 20 MILLION children and young adults!)  It 
 >  makes me physically ill, people! 
 > 
 >  But, I think I can offer you an explanation of why this is
happening. 
 >  Children have been bombarded with action, adventure, thrills and
scares 
 >  to the point Hollywood can produce nothing new to give them the next 
 >  'high.' Parents have neglected to see what their children are
reading 
 >  and doing, and simply seem satisfied that 'Little Johnny is
interested 
 >  in reading.' 
 > 
 >  AND... educators and the NEA are PUSHING this with NO WARNING as to
the 
 > effects or the contents. 
 > 
 >  Still not convinced? I will leave you with something to let you make
up 
 >  your own mind. And finally, a quote from the author herself, J. K. 
 >  Rowling, describing the objections of Christian reviewers to her 
 >  writings: "I think it's absolute rubbish to protest children's books
on 
 >  the grounds that they are luring children to Satan," Rowling told a 
 >  London Times reporter in a July 17 interview. "People should be
praising 
 >  them for that! These books guide children to an understanding that
the 
 >  weak, idiotic Son Of God is a living hoax who will be humiliated
when 
 >  the rain of fire comes ... while we, his faithful servants, laugh
and 
 >  cavort in victory." 
 > 
 >  My hope is that you will see fit to become involved in getting the
word 
 >  out about this garbage. Please FWD to every pastor, teacher, and
parent 
 >  you know. This author has now published FOUR BOOKS in less than 2
years 
 >  of this 'encyclopedia of Satanism' and is surely going to write
more. I 
 >  also ask all Christians to please pray for this lost woman's soul. 
 > 
 >  Pray also for the Holy Spirit to work in the young minds of those
who 
 >  are reading this garbage that they may be delivered from its harm. 
 >  Lastly, pray for all parents to grow closer to their children, and
That 
 >  a bond of sharing thoughts and spiritual intimacy will grow between 
 >  them. 
   >>
 
  >>



From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Sat Apr 28 02:12:04 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:12:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002401c0cf88$d2233b00$64c64e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17777

Amanda, my Aunt Carol sent copies of that letter to all of the family who
love HP. She lives in San Antonio, Texas. She sent that to us back in early
March. Someone from her church gave it to her. I emailed her back and just
told her we love HP, and no matter what religious nut says, he stays in our
home! But you were right to warn people in the group that they are still out
there! Thank you for the warning, I'm ready! Harry Potter rules!

Wanda The Witch of Revere
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 9:51 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]


> I am weary. I got the forwarded letter from my cousin. Don't read the
> following text if you're still smarting from the Richard Abannes fun.
> BUT, I posted this for a reason.
>
> Some of you may have received this letter before. Some of you may, in
> the future. Especially active Christians with well-meaning friends.
> Sooo, I've included the letter so you'll recognize it. And so that you
> can make intelligent answer, when and if you see it, or hear it
> referenced, know that the source of the so-called quotes and interview
> are the Onion. A satire. Fiction.
>
> I responded to my cousin and all her addressees. I wanted to arm all of
> you with the truth, in case you get a similar email from someone you had
> previously believed could think.
>
> Here's the Onion's home URL: http://www.theonion.com/
> Here's the Harry Potter article:
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html
>
> Aside from the sad fact that some people believe this is an actual news
> item, it's pretty funny. Again, just wanted to give any of you, who
> might get this letter or some variant, the ability to refute it.
>
> --Amanda
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Harry Potter Books
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:45:52 EDT
>
> In a message dated 4/26/01 3:38:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Tulsastar
> writes:
>
> <<
>  Here is an interesting email I recieved from a church friend.  I heard
> that
> the books were not good, but this gave a good reason why.
>
>  These are books our school teachers are suggesting the children read,
> they
>  encourage them to read them.  Parents think they are wonderful.  Let's
> check
>  them out before we let our children read something that may change
> their
>  lives for ever.  As  Grandparents we are very concerned about what goes
> into
>  the minds of our precious Grandchildren.  What happened to Bible
> Stories????
>
>  I guess they were put out of our schools the same time God was put
> out.
>  Let's turn things around parents, before it is too late.    Judy
>
>
>  <<  > Subject: Harry Potter Books
>  >
>  > "Jesus died because He was weak and stupid".
>  >  This is a quote from 6 year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC, after
>  >  reading the HARRY POTTER BOOKS!
>  >
>  >  The following is an email sent for the American Family Association,
>  >  which is VERY disturbing, to say the least. Please forward to all
> email
>  >  contacts, especially Christians and Pastors.
>  >
>  >  Dear Christian, This is the most evil thing I have laid my eyes on
> in 10
>  >  years ... and no one seems to understand its threat.
>  >
>  >  The Harry Potter books are THE NUMBER ONE selling children's books
> in
>  >  the nation today. Just look at any Barns & Noble or Waldenbooks
>  >  storefront.
>  >
>  >  Go to Amazon.com and read the reviews. Hear the touting by educators
> and
>  >  even Christian teachers about how "It's great to see the youth so
>  >  eagerly embracing the reading experience!"
>  >
>  >  Harry Potter is the creation of a former UK English teacher who
> promotes
>  >  witchcraft and Satanism. Harry is a 13 year old 'wizard.'
>  >
>  >  Her creation openly blasphemes Jesus and God and promotes sorcery,
>  >  seeking revenge upon anyone who upsets them by giving you examples
> (even
>  >  the sources with authors and titles) of spells, rituals, and demonic
>  >  powers.
>  >
>  >  I think the problem is that parents have not reviewed the material.
> The
>  >  name seems harmless enough... Harry Potter. But that is where it all
>  >  ends. Let me give you a few quotes from some of the influenced
> readers
>  >  themselves:
>  >
>  >  "The Harry Potter books are cool, 'cause they teach you all about
> magic
>  >  and how you can use it to control people and get revenge on your
>  >  enemies" said Hartland, WI, 10 year old Craig Nowell, a recent
> convert
>  >  to the New Satanic Order Of The Black Circle. "I want to learn the
>  >  Cruciatus Curse, to make my muggle science teacher suffer for giving
> me
>  >  a D." (A 'muggle' is an unbeliever of magic.)
>  >
>  >  Or how about the REALLY young and innocent impressionable mind of a
> 6
>  >  year old when asked about her favorite character:
>  >
>  >  "Hermione is my favorite, because she's smart and has a kitty," said
> 6
>  >  year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC. "Jesus died because He was
> weak
>  >  and stupid."
>  >
>  >  And here is dear Ashley, a 9 year old, the typical average age
> reader of
>  >  Harry Potter: "I used to believe in what they taught us at Sunday
>  >  School," said Ashley, conjuring up an ancient spell to summon
> Cerebus,
>  >  the three-headed hound of hell. "But the Harry Potter books showed
> me
>  >  that magic is real, something I can learn and use right now, and
> that
>  >  the Bible is nothing but Boring lies."
>  >
>  >  DOES THIS GET YOUR ATTENTION?
>  >
>  >  If not, how about a quote from High Priest of Satanism: "Harry is an
>  >  absolute godsend to our cause," said High Priest Egan of the First
>  >  Church Of Satan in Salem, MA, An organization like ours thrives on
> new
>  >  blood no pun intended and we've had more applicants than we can
> handle
>  >  lately. And, of course, practically all of them are virgins, which
> is
>  >  gravy." (Since 1995, open applicants to Satan worship has increased
> from
>  >  around 100,000 to now... 20 MILLION children and young adults!)  It
>  >  makes me physically ill, people!
>  >
>  >  But, I think I can offer you an explanation of why this is
> happening.
>  >  Children have been bombarded with action, adventure, thrills and
> scares
>  >  to the point Hollywood can produce nothing new to give them the next
>  >  'high.' Parents have neglected to see what their children are
> reading
>  >  and doing, and simply seem satisfied that 'Little Johnny is
> interested
>  >  in reading.'
>  >
>  >  AND... educators and the NEA are PUSHING this with NO WARNING as to
> the
>  > effects or the contents.
>  >
>  >  Still not convinced? I will leave you with something to let you make
> up
>  >  your own mind. And finally, a quote from the author herself, J. K.
>  >  Rowling, describing the objections of Christian reviewers to her
>  >  writings: "I think it's absolute rubbish to protest children's books
> on
>  >  the grounds that they are luring children to Satan," Rowling told a
>  >  London Times reporter in a July 17 interview. "People should be
> praising
>  >  them for that! These books guide children to an understanding that
> the
>  >  weak, idiotic Son Of God is a living hoax who will be humiliated
> when
>  >  the rain of fire comes ... while we, his faithful servants, laugh
> and
>  >  cavort in victory."
>  >
>  >  My hope is that you will see fit to become involved in getting the
> word
>  >  out about this garbage. Please FWD to every pastor, teacher, and
> parent
>  >  you know. This author has now published FOUR BOOKS in less than 2
> years
>  >  of this 'encyclopedia of Satanism' and is surely going to write
> more. I
>  >  also ask all Christians to please pray for this lost woman's soul.
>  >
>  >  Pray also for the Holy Spirit to work in the young minds of those
> who
>  >  are reading this garbage that they may be delivered from its harm.
>  >  Lastly, pray for all parents to grow closer to their children, and
> That
>  >  a bond of sharing thoughts and spiritual intimacy will grow between
>  >  them.
>    >>
>
>   >>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 02:00:19 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:00:19 -0000
Subject: Lupin and the Full Moon/Draco Malfoy sighting
In-Reply-To: <20010427061802.5376.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cd87j+4m57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17778

>  I was at a real estate seminar this evening, minding
> my own business,taking notes, trying to get something
> out of this course. About ten minutes into the lesson,
> the door opens and everyone turns around to stare at
> the late-comer,in sauntered Draco. My jaw dropped and
> I just stared. I know he had to have noticed but I
> could not help myself.He then proceeded to sit
> directly in front of me! Even with all of the
> dicriptions of Draco, I had'nt put a face(I had a
> genral idea)on him until that very moment.Just thought
> i'd share,got a little excited there,had to tell
> someone.

Ooooh... *giggles* I bet he was an arrogant looking, insolent little 
hottie, eh? Or not?

The way I remember it, I think JKR said in an interview regarding the 
Lupin/Moon thing was that, "The moon wasn't up when he entered the 
Shrieking Shack." So that would mean that while he was in the Shack, 
the moon was about to rise, but when he came out, the moon rose. 
Example of bad luck, maybe?

- Celeste




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 02:36:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:36:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net> <002401c0cf88$d2233b00$64c64e0c@s1p9c3>
Message-ID: <3AEA2CA2.41F06FBB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17779

Roy & Wanda Mallett wrote:

> Amanda, my Aunt Carol sent copies of that letter to all of the family
> who love HP. She lives in San Antonio, Texas. She sent that to us back
> in early March. Someone from her church gave it to her. I emailed her
> back and just told her we love HP, and no matter what religious nut
> says, he stays in our
> home! But you were right to warn people in the group that they are
> still out there! Thank you for the warning, I'm ready! Harry Potter
> rules!

I don't want to sound like I dislike all objectors to Harry Potter. I've
read some well-reasoned bases for objection. If you've actually read the
books and have formed an informed opinion, I salute you! But it
infuriates me that snippets from this satire page are forwarded around
as truth, in no small part because it insults Joanne Rowling deeply to
put such words in her mouth.

In my response to my cousin, I pointed out that the people at the Onion
were making fun of those who react this way, and were probably rolling
on the floor at the thought that they'd been taken seriously by the very
people they were making fun of.

Please tell your Aunt Carol where this really comes from. I think honest
people, who have "bought" this letter, will be horrified that they've
been promoting lies and fiction from a satire site, and defaming a good
woman. Or I can, I'm in San Antonio....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sat Apr 28 02:41:45 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:41:45 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cdal9+iqo2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17780

LOL!! People actually believe this is true?! How funny. I'm shocked 
that certain people are so obviously gullible; I mean, come on, who 
on earth shoud believe anything quoted from The Onion? :)

That Onion article had me ROFL, by the way. :)

Lyda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 02:55:00 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:55:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
References: <9casqd+j74q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEA3104.36001F8B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17781

Haggridd wrote:

> As I get further into the canon as read by Fry, I will report again,
> unless the response to this report is overwhelmingly negative.

No! No! Please do. I can't really afford either one (nor do I have the
capability to play them, anyway, at the moment), but I lean toward Fry
just from (a) the snippet I heard online someplace, (b) the fact that I
have not liked Jim Dale from way, way back in a Disney movie (Pete's
Dragon?), and (c) I want a reading, not an interpretation.

Very few of us actually have both and have listened to both. Pray
continue.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 03:08:01 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 03:08:01 -0000
Subject: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <3AEA3104.36001F8B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cdc6h+72of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17782

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > As I get further into the canon as read by Fry, I will report 
again,
> > unless the response to this report is overwhelmingly negative.
> 
> No! No! Please do. I can't really afford either one (nor do I have 
the
> capability to play them, anyway, at the moment), but I lean toward 
Fry
> just from (a) the snippet I heard online someplace, (b) the fact 
that I
> have not liked Jim Dale from way, way back in a Disney movie (Pete's
> Dragon?), and (c) I want a reading, not an interpretation.
> 
> Very few of us actually have both and have listened to both. Pray
> continue.
> 
> --Amanda

> 
But Fry is equally engaging in interpretation as is Dale.  He is not 
simply reading the books. That became clear early on.  The question is 
whether the differences are merely matters of degree, or  are there 
substantive differences in the presentation of the dialogues that are 
done more intuitively by one or the other.

Haggridd> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Sat Apr 28 03:16:42 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:16:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net> <002401c0cf88$d2233b00$64c64e0c@s1p9c3> <3AEA2CA2.41F06FBB@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002301c0cf91$a9750540$9857fea9@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17783

You sure can ! Her email address is castarling at juno.com and  you can tell
her.   I'll email her too. Tomorrow, today was busy with the boys! Thank you
for clearing that up, what a nightmare!
Goodnight, Amanda.
Wanda The Witch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]


> Roy & Wanda Mallett wrote:
>
> > Amanda, my Aunt Carol sent copies of that letter to all of the family
> > who love HP. She lives in San Antonio, Texas. She sent that to us back
> > in early March. Someone from her church gave it to her. I emailed her
> > back and just told her we love HP, and no matter what religious nut
> > says, he stays in our
> > home! But you were right to warn people in the group that they are
> > still out there! Thank you for the warning, I'm ready! Harry Potter
> > rules!
>
> I don't want to sound like I dislike all objectors to Harry Potter. I've
> read some well-reasoned bases for objection. If you've actually read the
> books and have formed an informed opinion, I salute you! But it
> infuriates me that snippets from this satire page are forwarded around
> as truth, in no small part because it insults Joanne Rowling deeply to
> put such words in her mouth.
>
> In my response to my cousin, I pointed out that the people at the Onion
> were making fun of those who react this way, and were probably rolling
> on the floor at the thought that they'd been taken seriously by the very
> people they were making fun of.
>
> Please tell your Aunt Carol where this really comes from. I think honest
> people, who have "bought" this letter, will be horrified that they've
> been promoting lies and fiction from a satire site, and defaming a good
> woman. Or I can, I'm in San Antonio....
>
> --Amanda
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 02:51:20 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:51:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <9cdal9+iqo2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEA3028.71ED1F57@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17784

Lyda Clunas wrote:

> LOL!! People actually believe this is true?! How funny. I'm shocked
> that certain people are so obviously gullible; I mean, come on, who on
> earth shoud believe anything quoted from The Onion? :)

The point is, that it's been forwarded around. The actual letter gives
no source, just the quotes. People tend to trust those who send them
things--if you got an email from your trusted pastor, you'd tend to
believe it. This letter has a life of its own now, and is being passed
around as gospel truth (pardon the unavoidable pun). The forwarders
don't *know* it's from the Onion. Hence my heads-up.

> That Onion article had me ROFL, by the way. :)

You should read some of their animal rights pieces. They skewer both
sides of the issue rather well.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Sat Apr 28 01:23:58 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy & Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:23:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: De's and Harry's Scar
References: <988403443.1885.6924.l10@yahoogroups.com> <3AE9DC20.254562AA@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <003c01c0cf81$e94c5ac0$11ca4e0c@s1p9c3>

No: HPFGUIDX 17785

Thank you Betty, this will help explain things better to my boys. I am still
learning about so much from this group.  As a mother of a 12 and 13 year
olds, they ask some really good questions. So I read the posts and find a
load of knowledge in them. Thank you!

Wanda The Witch of Revere
----- Original Message -----
From: "Betty Landers" <landers at email.unc.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: De's and Harry's Scar


> >    From: "Roy & Wanda Mallett" <wr7238 at worldnet.att.net>
> > Subject: Re: DE's and Harry's Scar
> >
> > Andrea gave a nice explanation to my post. Do you have any idea why
Harry's scar hurts? Could it be that Voldemort left something of himself
inside of Harry?Also, the state of Voldemort ,was he a ghost form or
something else? Any one's guess?
> > I don't know why Harry's scar hurts.  Since no one has survived adave
kedarra before, no one knows what happens when you do.  It may be a remnent
of the curse.  There is some canonical evidence to describe Voldemort's
state until his rebirthing.
> > Paraphrasing from book 1:"See what I have become?  Meer shadow and
vapor.  I have form only when I can share another's body."  OR something
like that.  From book four: "I was less than spirit...less than the meanest
ghost...." I don't know if we have a name for what Voldemort was between his
attempt
> > on Harry and his rebirth.
>
>
>
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From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 04:04:18 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 04:04:18 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet Article
Message-ID: <9cdfg2+rjnl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17786

***************** THE DAILY PROPHET ********************

********What the Wizarding World Was Wondering***********

April 27, 2001                       Weather: Wet, Windy

YOUNG MALFOY ARRESTED IN PEEPING INCIDENT
*Muggles Arrest Wizard Outside Sexy Singing Star's House; Ministry 
"Helpless" to Intervene*

by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon

HOGSMEADE, U.K., Apr. 27 - Draco Malfoy, son of prominent British 
wizard Lucius Malfoy, was arrested yesterday by the muggle police 
outside the residence of singing star Magical Spice.   Malfoy, 21, 
was found peering into the second floor bathroom window of the 
singing sensation's residence, where the star was about to take a 
shower.  The young lady saw him perched on the window ledge and 
screamed, alerting her security forces.  Apparently, Malfoy was too 
inebriated to disapparate before the arrival of the Muggle police and 
too embarrassed to inform the Ministry of Magic, or his family, of 
his arrest.

Unfortunately for young Malfoy, his arrest was reported on the 
muggle's evening news telecast, which is seen by millions of British 
muggles.  For this reason, the Ministry of Magic says it can not 
intervene, as it usually would when a member of the wizarding 
community is taken into custody by muggles.  "We can't let Malfoy 
disapparate from his jail cell, or take any other means to rescue 
him, without the muggles noticing because his arrest was broadcast to 
the entire country," said Minister of Magic Cornelius Fudge, "We 
can't put a Memory Charm on the entire population of Great Britain, 
for goodness sakes."  Minister Fudge added, "He will just have to 
take his chances with the muggle justice system."

Lucius Malfoy, president of the Slytherin Society of Great Britain 
and patriarch of one of the most prominent wizard families, is 
reportedly furious with the Ministry of Magic's refusal to 
intervene.  At a press conference today, Mr Malfoy stated, "My son is 
in the hands of those dirty, no-good mudbl ? I mean muggles.  It is 
unseemly for the Ministry to allow a full-blooded wizard, from a long 
line of wizards, to remain in the custody of mere muggles.  I am 
outraged that the Ministry refuses to intervene, and in addition 
refuses to allow the Malfoy family to reclaim its own.  The Ministry 
will pay for this dishonor!"

Since the Malfoy family has not been permitted to retrieve their son, 
they have hired muggle barrister Heidi Tandy, an American lawyer 
famous for her sympathetic courtroom pleas for lenience for young 
lawbreakers.  According to Tandy, "Draco Malfoy is a confused and 
unhappy young man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  
Those who argue that my client is either evil or unredeemable do not 
fully understand the complexity of Draco's character or the difficult 
upbringing he has had."  Tandy added, "Draco was only seeking Ms. 
Spice's autograph, and did not realize that he was breaking the law."

According to Lavender Brown, Ms. Spice's press agent, the singing 
star is "terrified and upset" about the incident.  Spice, a crossover 
singing sensation popular in both the wizarding and muggle 
communities, has recently been plagued by voyeurs and stalkers.  
According to Brown, Spice has had to hire both security trolls and 
muggle security guards to patrol her property.  However, none of the 
security agents noticed Malfoy perched on the ledge outside Spice's 
bathroom.  The muggle news reports speculated that Malfoy climbed a 
drainpipe to the second floor of the house, however, a Nimbus 2001 
broom was found on Spice's property and confiscated by the muggle 
authorities.





From s.a.krans at worldnet.att.net  Sat Apr 28 02:34:37 2001
From: s.a.krans at worldnet.att.net (Sarah Krans)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:34:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <9cdal9+iqo2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c0cf8b$c5ab1020$b749570c@pavilion>

No: HPFGUIDX 17787

I too am rolling on the floor.  That 'letter' could not be more closed
minded and stereotypical Christian (no offense to anyone who might take
offense at it--I'm NOT saying that all Christians as closed-minded, etc)
The first thing that really got me as being backwards and 'Dark Ages' was
actually implying that practicing witchcraft equates to Satanism.  I know
this can take a MAJOR religious turn and I don't want to but do need to make
a point in defense of us pagans out there  =).  Paganism/witchcraft (though
not all  pagans are witches or practice magick) do not believe in Satan or
hell.  We know that there is good and bad in nature and most of us believe
in reincarnation--so there is not heaven or hell, hence no Satan (though
there are god and goddesses that enjoy mischief)  How also can the write of
the letter justify it being satanic yet at the same time there are Christmas
and Easter breaks/holidays?  Pagans don't celebrate these Christian
holidays.  =)  Also, where are those figures being pulled from?!  20 million
members of Satanic cults?!  Wow!  Pagans, probably, but I doubt Satanists.

Anyway, just wanted to stand on the soapbox for a while and basically
continue venting at how stupid some people are!  =)

Sarah

P.S.  The Onion ROCKS!  *grin*'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 27 April, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]


> LOL!! People actually believe this is true?! How funny. I'm shocked
> that certain people are so obviously gullible; I mean, come on, who
> on earth should believe anything quoted from The Onion? :)
>
> That Onion article had me ROFL, by the way. :)
>
> Lyda
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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the messages they want to read and those they don't.
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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 28 04:51:54 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 04:51:54 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <001901c0cf8b$c5ab1020$b749570c@pavilion>
Message-ID: <9cdi9a+b5vs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17788

You know what? We should forward this letter to the Onion.com -- They 
would be grinning like Gred and Forge.





From meckelburg at foni.net  Sat Apr 28 05:21:24 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 05:21:24 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cdk0k+5e7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17789

The contents of this letter have been forwarded in Germany too, of 
course without saying the source was satire. I didn't laugh at all. 
It was in the papers, and it took about 3-4 days until a new, but 
much smaller article put it straight again.
The original Onion-article is very funny though!

Mecki--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I am weary. I got the forwarded letter from my cousin. Don't read 
the
> following text if you're still smarting from the Richard Abannes 
fun.
> BUT, I posted this for a reason.
> 
> Some of you may have received this letter before. Some of you may, 
in
> the future. Especially active Christians with well-meaning friends.
> Sooo, I've included the letter so you'll recognize it. And so that 
you
> can make intelligent answer, when and if you see it, or hear it
> referenced, know that the source of the so-called quotes and 
interview
> are the Onion. A satire. Fiction.
> 
> I responded to my cousin and all her addressees. I wanted to arm all 
of
> you with the truth, in case you get a similar email from someone you 
had
> previously believed could think.
> 
> Here's the Onion's home URL: http://www.theonion.com/
> Here's the Harry Potter article:
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html
> 
> Aside from the sad fact that some people believe this is an actual 
news
> item, it's pretty funny. Again, just wanted to give any of you, who
> might get this letter or some variant, the ability to refute it.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Harry Potter Books
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:45:52 EDT
> 
> In a message dated 4/26/01 3:38:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
Tulsastar
> writes:
> 
> << 
>  Here is an interesting email I recieved from a church friend.  I 
heard
> that 
> the books were not good, but this gave a good reason why.
>   
>  These are books our school teachers are suggesting the children 
read,
> they 
>  encourage them to read them.  Parents think they are wonderful.  
Let's
> check 
>  them out before we let our children read something that may change
> their 
>  lives for ever.  As  Grandparents we are very concerned about what 
goes
> into 
>  the minds of our precious Grandchildren.  What happened to Bible
> Stories???? 
>   
>  I guess they were put out of our schools the same time God was put
> out.   
>  Let's turn things around parents, before it is too late.    Judy 
>  
>  
>  <<  > Subject: Harry Potter Books 
>  > 
>  > "Jesus died because He was weak and stupid". 
>  >  This is a quote from 6 year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC, 
after 
>  >  reading the HARRY POTTER BOOKS! 
>  > 
>  >  The following is an email sent for the American Family 
Association, 
>  >  which is VERY disturbing, to say the least. Please forward to 
all
> email 
>  >  contacts, especially Christians and Pastors. 
>  > 
>  >  Dear Christian, This is the most evil thing I have laid my eyes 
on
> in 10 
>  >  years ... and no one seems to understand its threat. 
>  > 
>  >  The Harry Potter books are THE NUMBER ONE selling children's 
books
> in 
>  >  the nation today. Just look at any Barns & Noble or Waldenbooks 
>  >  storefront. 
>  > 
>  >  Go to Amazon.com and read the reviews. Hear the touting by 
educators
> and 
>  >  even Christian teachers about how "It's great to see the youth 
so 
>  >  eagerly embracing the reading experience!" 
>  > 
>  >  Harry Potter is the creation of a former UK English teacher who
> promotes 
>  >  witchcraft and Satanism. Harry is a 13 year old 'wizard.' 
>  > 
>  >  Her creation openly blasphemes Jesus and God and promotes 
sorcery, 
>  >  seeking revenge upon anyone who upsets them by giving you 
examples
> (even 
>  >  the sources with authors and titles) of spells, rituals, and 
demonic 
>  >  powers. 
>  > 
>  >  I think the problem is that parents have not reviewed the 
material.
> The 
>  >  name seems harmless enough... Harry Potter. But that is where it 
all 
>  >  ends. Let me give you a few quotes from some of the influenced
> readers 
>  >  themselves: 
>  > 
>  >  "The Harry Potter books are cool, 'cause they teach you all 
about
> magic 
>  >  and how you can use it to control people and get revenge on your 
>  >  enemies" said Hartland, WI, 10 year old Craig Nowell, a recent
> convert 
>  >  to the New Satanic Order Of The Black Circle. "I want to learn 
the 
>  >  Cruciatus Curse, to make my muggle science teacher suffer for 
giving
> me 
>  >  a D." (A 'muggle' is an unbeliever of magic.) 
>  > 
>  >  Or how about the REALLY young and innocent impressionable mind 
of a
> 6 
>  >  year old when asked about her favorite character: 
>  > 
>  >  "Hermione is my favorite, because she's smart and has a kitty," 
said
> 6 
>  >  year old Jessica Lehman of Easley, SC. "Jesus died because He 
was
> weak 
>  >  and stupid." 
>  > 
>  >  And here is dear Ashley, a 9 year old, the typical average age
> reader of 
>  >  Harry Potter: "I used to believe in what they taught us at 
Sunday 
>  >  School," said Ashley, conjuring up an ancient spell to summon
> Cerebus, 
>  >  the three-headed hound of hell. "But the Harry Potter books 
showed
> me 
>  >  that magic is real, something I can learn and use right now, and
> that 
>  >  the Bible is nothing but Boring lies." 
>  > 
>  >  DOES THIS GET YOUR ATTENTION? 
>  > 
>  >  If not, how about a quote from High Priest of Satanism: "Harry 
is an 
>  >  absolute godsend to our cause," said High Priest Egan of the 
First 
>  >  Church Of Satan in Salem, MA, An organization like ours thrives 
on
> new 
>  >  blood no pun intended and we've had more applicants than we can
> handle 
>  >  lately. And, of course, practically all of them are virgins, 
which
> is 
>  >  gravy." (Since 1995, open applicants to Satan worship has 
increased
> from 
>  >  around 100,000 to now... 20 MILLION children and young adults!) 
 It 
>  >  makes me physically ill, people! 
>  > 
>  >  But, I think I can offer you an explanation of why this is
> happening. 
>  >  Children have been bombarded with action, adventure, thrills and
> scares 
>  >  to the point Hollywood can produce nothing new to give them the 
next 
>  >  'high.' Parents have neglected to see what their children are
> reading 
>  >  and doing, and simply seem satisfied that 'Little Johnny is
> interested 
>  >  in reading.' 
>  > 
>  >  AND... educators and the NEA are PUSHING this with NO WARNING as 
to
> the 
>  > effects or the contents. 
>  > 
>  >  Still not convinced? I will leave you with something to let you 
make
> up 
>  >  your own mind. And finally, a quote from the author herself, J. 
K. 
>  >  Rowling, describing the objections of Christian reviewers to her 
>  >  writings: "I think it's absolute rubbish to protest children's 
books
> on 
>  >  the grounds that they are luring children to Satan," Rowling 
told a 
>  >  London Times reporter in a July 17 interview. "People should be
> praising 
>  >  them for that! These books guide children to an understanding 
that
> the 
>  >  weak, idiotic Son Of God is a living hoax who will be humiliated
> when 
>  >  the rain of fire comes ... while we, his faithful servants, 
laugh
> and 
>  >  cavort in victory." 
>  > 
>  >  My hope is that you will see fit to become involved in getting 
the
> word 
>  >  out about this garbage. Please FWD to every pastor, teacher, and
> parent 
>  >  you know. This author has now published FOUR BOOKS in less than 
2
> years 
>  >  of this 'encyclopedia of Satanism' and is surely going to write
> more. I 
>  >  also ask all Christians to please pray for this lost woman's 
soul. 
>  > 
>  >  Pray also for the Holy Spirit to work in the young minds of 
those
> who 
>  >  are reading this garbage that they may be delivered from its 
harm. 
>  >  Lastly, pray for all parents to grow closer to their children, 
and
> That 
>  >  a bond of sharing thoughts and spiritual intimacy will grow 
between 
>  >  them. 
>    >>
>  
>   >>




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr 28 07:09:34 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 07:09:34 -0000
Subject: religion in Hong Kong and Evil Hufflepuffs/Good Slytherins)
In-Reply-To: <012c01c0cef7$e2c9e4e0$5c0ceda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9cdqbe+tbf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17790

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,

I wrote...
> > I know quite a few people from Hong Kong, and as you say, most are
> > Christians - Roman Catholics, to be precise.  In fact, many 
wealthy
> > families send their children over here to be educated in
> > English/roman Catholic private schools.

Alex wrote...
> Well, I'm born and raised in Hong Kong, and I have to ask, what the 
heck are
> you talking about?  Most importantly, where do you live?  I think 
most of
> the HK people you've met are Christian because, forgive me if I'm 
wrong,
> you're Christian yourself.  

Erm, well for one thing I'm not Christian (though brought up that 
way).  Secondly, I'm English, and had a boyfriend from HK when I was 
at university.  He and his sister were both educated here - and he 
was the one who told me that the majority of people in Hong Kong were 
Christian.  This made sense to me, considering the effect of British 
colonialism etc.  So apologies if I'm wrong - a combination of 
misinformation and coincidence, I guess.  


So, does Slytherin value other things
> > (cunning, ambition, pure evil) above blood?
> 
> Perhaps the wealth of V's family overcame the Slytherin's aversion 
against
> his blood?  Maybe the fact that his mother was a witch was enough.  
Or maybe
> they just didn't know.  People know Hermione and other students are
> Muggle-born because they tell others.  What if V's so ashamed of it 
that he
> made up stories about his background?  If not stories, then perhaps 
at least
> lies of omission?  The teachers would know, but maybe they don't 
divulge
> such information?  It could happen...  Or perhaps his fellow 
Slytherins just
> didn't care because Tom is such a great boy.
> 
> little Alex

I think that Voldemort readily admits that his ancestry is half 
Muggle.  (Although I don't know what he would have done at school).  
So I can't see him making up stories about his background.   I was 
trying to get across the point that perhaps he was an exception, and 
what was the likelihood of other muggleborn children being sorted 
into Slytherin.  The decision is made by the sorting hat, afterall, 
and therefore this kind of information would be taken into account.

Catherine





From schala at libero.it  Sat Apr 28 09:36:00 2001
From: schala at libero.it (Momiji)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 11:36:00 +0200
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <988100917.5651.80260.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20010428111844.00a140f0@popmail.libero.it>

No: HPFGUIDX 17791

At 08.28 24/04/2001 +0000, you wrote:

>Message: 8
>    Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:37:21 -0500
>    From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Re: Why I lurk AND a question
>
>Momiji wrote:
>
>an entire post apologizing for bad English, which contained not one
>single misspelled word or bit of incorrect grammar. I am humbled by all
>of you who speak English as a second language and do it so well. You
>should have *seen* me trying to make change in Polish at a pretzel
>stand....
>
>Momiji! Post more! Tell us cool things about the Italian translations!
>
>--Amanda
Well...
^-^ (blush)
ehm...
Thanks Amanda and all of you...

This is the Italian name's translations :

Albus Dumbledore=Albus Silente
Argus Filch=Argus Gazza
Bathilda Bagshot=Adalbert Incant
Buckbeak=Fierobecco
Cornelius Fudge=Cornelius Caramell
Crabbe=Tiger
Crookshanks=Grattastinchi
Ernie Prang=Ernie Urto
Fang=Thor
Gilderoy Lockhart=Gilderoy Allock
Hedwig=Edvige
Lavender Brown=Lavanda Brown
Madam Hooch=Madama Bumb
Madam Pomfrey=Madama Chips
Mad Eye Moody= Malocchio Moody
Marcus Flint=Marcus Flitt
Minerva McGonagall=Minerva McGranitt
Moony=Lunastorta
Mrs. Norris=Mrs. Purr
Neville=Longbottom Neville Paciock
Nearly Headless Nick=Nick-Quasi-Senza-Testa
Oliver Wood=Oliver Baston
Padfoot=Felpato
Parvati Patil=Cal? Patil
Penelope Clearwater=Penelope Light
Peter Pettigrew=Peter Minus
Peeves=Pix il Poltergeist
Professor Binns=Professor Ruuf
Professor Flitwick=Professor Vitious
Professor Quirrel=Professor Raptor
Professor Sprout=Professor Spirte
Prongs=Ramoso
Scabbers=Crosta
Severus Snape=Severus Piton
Sibyll Trelawney=Sibilla Cooman
Stan Shunpike=Stan Picchetto
Trevor=Oscar
Wendelin the Weird=Guendalina la Guercia
Wormtail=Codaliscia
I don't like this translations... Some are perfect, but many are too 
"childish"...
(oh my! Why "Piton"????? Why???? ;_;)

And... about the "Lack of curiosity"... why I've not read anything about 
the Harry's parents graves?  Do graves exist? ?_?

;) Bye bye
Laura

--
"Be'... ho avuto fortuna una volta, non e'  vero?" disse Harry additando la 
sua cicatrice "Potrei aver fortuna di nuovo". [Harry Potter e la pietra 
filosofale]
Laura "Momiji" Angeli <schala at libero.it>








From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Apr 28 13:53:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:53:52 -0000
Subject: religion in Hong Kong 
In-Reply-To: <9cdqbe+tbf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cei1g+6l6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17792

This is the information that I found when I checked the religion in 
Hong Kong:

"Buddhism and Taoism are the main religions in Hong Kong, while 
Confucianism, a set of moral codes, is widely held. Buddhist and 
Taoist deities are present in about 600 Chinese temples in Hong Kong. 
The most popular deities are those associated with the sea and the 
weather. 

Other religions in Hong Kong are Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Sikh and 
Jewish faiths. There are many Catholic and Protestant churches and 
places of worship throughout the territory."

Doreen





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Apr 28 14:58:27 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:58:27 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <001901c0cf8b$c5ab1020$b749570c@pavilion>
Message-ID: <9celqj+pldc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17793

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Krans" <s.a.krans at w...> wrote:
.  That 'letter' could not be more closed
> minded and stereotypical Christian (no offense to anyone who might take
> offense at it--

	I'm not offended. But calling the letter Christian is unfair. The 
proper term  is 'idiotic'. <g> 
	I am beginning to think that the Potter books, while harmless to 
children, should probably be kept away from impressionable adults. 
Can anything be done?<vbg>

Pippin





From meckelburg at foni.net  Sat Apr 28 15:07:14 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:07:14 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <9celqj+pldc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cemb2+j333@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17794

In an interview JKR was asked to comment on these people, and all 
she said was:
"They need psychiatric help!"<vbg> And I think she's right,too!
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Krans" <s.a.krans at w...> wrote:
> .  That 'letter' could not be more closed
> > minded and stereotypical Christian (no offense to anyone who might 
take
> > offense at it--
> 
> 	I'm not offended. But calling the letter Christian is unfair. 
The 
> proper term  is 'idiotic'. <g> 
> 	I am beginning to think that the Potter books, while harmless 
to 
> children, should probably be kept away from impressionable adults. 
> Can anything be done?<vbg>
> 
> Pippin




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 15:07:57 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:07:57 -0500
Subject: On Meanness, Evil, and Bowling (was [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks, Wanda;  something odd)
References: <40F0EC4E55@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <3AEADCCD.849462E3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17795

I brought this over from Chatter, since it raised an interesting
relevant point.

Rachel Bray wrote:
about overhearing two kids in the bowling lane next to theirs, arguing
about who was meaner, Snape or Voldemort <details of Rachel's bowling
skills snipped to protect the innocent>

> Anyway, one of their lines from the argument was this:
>
> "Snape is the meanest one because he has a choice to be nice to Harry
> like he's nice to Draco.  Voldemort doesn't have a choice because he's
> evil through and through."
>
> Interesting.....

Indeed. How does the list think "mean" interacts with "evil"? Because
I'll grant this argument, that Snape is meaner. But Voldemort is clearly
more evil. So does being mean have a lot to do with evil at all? Or is
the quality of being mean rather like the quality of being
ambitious--not evil in and of itself, but more likely than other traits
to lead you in that direction? Or does evil have to do with a perception
of real harm? Because Snape, for all his meanness, does not think he's
doing real harm, I don't think. And Voldemort quite clearly does, and
intends to.

Interesting observation from the kids.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 15:15:12 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <9cdal9+iqo2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010428151512.4500.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17796


--- Lyda Clunas <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com> wrote:
> LOL!! People actually believe this is true?! How funny. I'm shocked 
> that certain people are so obviously gullible; I mean, come on, who 
> on earth shoud believe anything quoted from The Onion? :)
> 
> That Onion article had me ROFL, by the way. :)

I absolutely CANNOT believe that people would find this true! The part
that took the cake for me was when one of the girls supposedly
*conjured* up a three-headed cerebus while she was saying who much she
loved the dark arts. I mean, really, anyone with any logic should be
able to think to themselves "Hm, a little girl conjuring up a
three-headed dog from hell. Hey, this seems pretty far-fetched and
ridiculous; I think this is a hoax and not true at all!".

Not to sound mean, but some people need to seriously reclaim an old
practice called thinking for themselves. And they need to be told that
everything that comes across their email isn't necessarily true.

~Amber
  

=====
"Any and all opinions/statements expressed within are subject to immediate and violent change at any time..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 15:27:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:27:21 -0500
Subject: Joywitch's eloquence revisited
Message-ID: <3AEAE159.D60DE151@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17797

I loved this so much at the time that I have taken the time to comb the
archives and find this for the edification and amusement of any
newcomers. I was going to just give the message number, but the post
also covers nitpicks about Dave Barry quotes, so I just copied the
relevant part to this post.

Joywitch has, in my opinion, delivered the ultimate last word on those
who object to the Potter books on religious grounds, specifically her
last paragraph, which I have printed out and have over my desk. [It's
message number 13965, for those of you who just like to know these
things.]

<begin quote>

I mean, really, with all the problems in this world could you imagine
that if God dropped by Earth he would tell us all not to read Harry
Potter?

"Listen, my children, thou have sinned.  I dont care that you slaughter
each other because you dont like the color of other peoples skin or
their ancestry, or because you want their land or possessions, I dont
care that women are raped and brutalized, or that children are abused,
but I really think you should stop reading about a school where kids are
learning how to make a pineapple tap dance across the desk."

I dont trust these anti-Harry Potter morons because although they
sometimes seem to be able to think for themselves, I cant see where they
keep their brains.

--Joywitch





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 15:50:23 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:50:23 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ceorv+1afg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17798

Hey - I can do what I want while I'm here, because as a Jewish person, 
according to those fanatic Christian Fundamentalists, I'm going to 
burn in hell anyway.

So bring on the Harry Potter books!

:-)

--jenny from ravenclaw********************************************




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 28 16:37:25 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:37:25 -0700
Subject: Draco at Seminar, and in Jail - Religion - Muggle-born Slytherins -  Still Lycanthropy - 
Message-ID: <3AEAF1C4.3089ADAA@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17799

Laila Golden Faile wrote:
> About ten minutes into the lesson,  the door opens and
> everyone turns around to stare at the late-comer, in sauntered Draco.

Arriving late on purpose to draw attention to his entrance sounds so
authentically Draco!

Joywitch M. Curmudgeon wrote in the DAILY PROPHET:
> According to Lavender Brown, Ms. Spice's press agent, the
> singing star is "terrified and upset" about the incident.

Dear Editor, I am sure that mine is only one of a flood of letters
condemning Magical Spice's lack of judgment. *Draco Malfoy* can come in
through my bathroom window any time!

Little Alex wrote:
> But Taoist/Buddhist isn't exactly what's happening.  It's more
> like, believing in the gods/saints without believing in the religion
> itself, or  not treating it as a religion.  I think most people
wouldn't
> call themselves Taoist or Buddhist, but they will tell you which
> specific saints/gods they worship and which rules they observe.
> And even if they believe in the Buddha, most don't believe in
> Buddhism. Am I making sense?

Lots of sense. I have long believed that the natural state of human
beings is to have 'the way we live, the way we do things' rather than
having 'religion'. Maybe even the word 'religion' only arouse when
people starting travelling enough to meet people with different
religions (travelling -- back in the Neolithic).

But I was wondering about emigrants because I was wondering in the
context of Cho Chang. If she were Nga "Angie" Nguyen or Truc "Tracy"
Tran, I would have immediately assumed she was Buddhist, which is what
most of my Vietnamese co-workers say they are.

Which reminds me, Joanne [Loan] Tran came to work the other day with a
very funny story about having heard her brother watching a video that
made loud, strange noises, so she asked him what all the racket was, so
he handed her the cassette and told her to find out for herself, so she
popped it into her VCR but didn't watch it yet. And the next day her
sister and little niece came over and the niece wanted to watch "Lion
King" (and for some reason she thought it was already in Joanne's VCR)
so she turned on the VCR ... and saw the middle of a porn video. She
shouted a complaint that this wasn't "Lion King", and everyone rushed
into Joanne's room, and saw what was on Joanne's VCR, and Joanne's
mother angrily scolded her, telling her that she was going to go to the
eighth Buddhist hell....  I guess you hadda be there: the reason it's so
funny is that Joanne is SUCH a cute innocent young girl, being blamed
for her brother's video...

Catherine wrote:
> I was wondering recently how muggle-born children who were
> sorted  into Slytherin would be treated by their peers.  I came to the

> conclusion that as Slytherin valued pure bloods, that it was unlikely
> that there would be any muggle borns in his house.  On the other
>  hand, Voldemort himself was sorted into Slytherin, and he isn't
> pureblood, so this doesn't really follow, unless his ancestry
> overcame muggle blood.  So, does Slytherin value other things
> (cunning, ambition, pure evil) above blood?

TMR was 1/2 Muggle 1/2 Wizarding: a Halfblood. It has never occurred to
me that DEs wanted Halfblood wizards and witches killed or exiled to
Muggledom, more that they should be admitted into the wizarding
community with theoretically equal legal rights but be mocked for their
ancestry and excluded from the best jobs and stuff.

Salazar's argument was that Muggle-born students were a security risk
who might tell other Muggles about wizards and witches (the wizarding
folk kept themselves secret from Muggles BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED OF
BEING ATTACKED BY MUGGLES, there are things in QTA and FB, such as
Abraham Peasegood was one of the many wizards who emigrated to the North
American colonies in hope of avoiding the discrimination against magic
that was afoot in Europe). That might have led him to make a distinction
between Halfbloods who were raised in the wizarding world (Seamus) and
those who were raised as Muggles.

I wonder whether the Sorting Hat would ever put a Muggle-born into
Slytherin House -- yes, if it judges by the Song's criteria, no, if it
tries to choose the same students that Salazar would have chosen. I
wonder if the people in Slytherin House are always Pureblood Bigots, or
if they go through fads in their dislikes. I can imagine a Muggle-born
being Sorted into Slytherin House during one of their racial purity
fits, being ostracized or something by the other kids, and the Head of
House has to lecture the leaders among the other kids: "Did the Sorting
Hat make a mistake? Are you claiming that you know better than the
Founders' hat? If old Slytherin wouldn't ever choose a Muggle-born, then
she must not *be* Muggle-born. If she wasn't adopted or switched at
birth, maybe she's a great wizard's bastard."

Celeste Chang wrote:
>  I think JKR said in an interview regarding the Lupin/Moon
> thing was that, "The moon wasn't up when he entered the
>  Shrieking Shack." So that would mean that while he was in
> the Shack,  the moon was about to rise, but when he came
> out, the moon rose.

Yes, I read some interview where she said that. But the point is, he
DIDN'T transform when the moon rose: he transformed when the already
risen moon came out from behind a cloud and the moonlight touched him.
"A cloud shifted. There were suddenly dim shadows on the ground. Their
party was bathed in moonlight."

First of all, this was in June in the Northern Hemisphere, when the Full
Moon rises before the sun sets, and Lupin entered the Shack well after
sunset: sunset was when HHR heard the axe blow of Buckbeak's execution
and starting walking back to the castle, after which they made an
unplanned detour to the Shack. So the moon WAS up yet when he entered
the Shrieking Shack but he hadn't transformed.

Second, even if the moon hadn't risen yet when Lupin entered the Shack
(just as holidays happen on the convenient day of the week rather than
according to the year of the action), it rose while he was in the Shack,
so why didn't he transform while he was in the Shack? As someone already
said, if he only transforms when outdoors, he wouldn't need Wolfsbane
Potion, he could just stay inside that one night each month.

Third, even if the moon hadn't risen yet while Lupin was in the Shack,
it had already risen behind clouds during their walk outdoors. Several
people from Britain have pointed out that if Lupin doesn't transform if
the Full Moon is covered by clouds, then there are more months that he
doesn't transform than that he does.

Someone quoted a bunch of references to moonlight in which it didn't
touch Lupin before the one where it touched him and he transformed, but
I haven't found those quotes in the book yet.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From kris403 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 17:26:11 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:26:11 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <9ceorv+1afg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ceufj+mq4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17800

First, I am a very strong Christian, so techinically I guess I should support everything that Onion article states, but I don't.  I don't agree with Satanism, but I hardly think that is what Harry Potter is.  And I really don't understand all that witchcraft is made out to be.  I understand a little of Wicca, but I'm not sure about the whole spell thing, so if I offend anyone please forgive me.  

I understand that Harry is a wizard, but I'm not sure that it is meant to be shown as a religion.  Who's to say that there are not Christian wizards, or wizards of all faiths.  In JKR's world  it seems more like a natural gift than something that you just learn how to do.  (yes they have to learn how to use it.)  These children were not given a choice on what they were born as.  Religion essentially is a choice.  You may grow up in a particular faith, but ultimately you have the decision about what you want to believe.  I almost want to compare it to race in the fact that we do not decide what color of skin we want to have.  I hope that makes sense.  

Second, Kids will be kids and when I was 10 I really wanted to believe that Star Wars was true, and that someday I would join the rebellion, and I would really annoy my parents.  But deep in your mind you know it is just a fantasy.  It is the job of the parents to help their children discern fact from fiction.  They do not always have the abiltity to do it on their own.  As for the "Jesus was weak and that's why he died" comment.  Again, I think that is parenting.  

I will stop because I could really start lecturing, and I will not do that.  I just really hate how some narrow minded Christians make Christians like me look awful.  We are not all judgemental.  

kris




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 17:59:31 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:59:31 -0000
Subject: Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9cdc6h+72of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cf0e3+3vqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17801

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
>  I lean toward Fry just from (a) the snippet I heard online 
someplace, (b) the fact  that Ihave not liked Jim Dale from way, way 
back in a Disney movie (Pete's Dragon?), and (c) I want a reading, 
not an interpretation. 
> > 
> > --Amanda
> 
> > 
> But Fry is equally engaging in interpretation as is Dale.  

As I listen further to Fry's interpretation of PS, I have made the 
following observations, in no particular order:

Fry becomes less enjoyable the more ambitious he is in making up 
voices. His Harry is excellent-- better than Dale's-- because it is 
essentially Fry's reading voice.  His Aunt Petunia is poor, as is his 
Minerva MacGonagall.  

Dale's Uncle Vernon is nastier and pettier than Fry's, and more real 
to me, but Fry's Vernon is nonetheless acceptable. 

I prefer Fry's voice for Hermione.  It captures her breathless 
bossiness quite well.  Dale makes her sound too nice too soon.

Irrespective of any authentic dialect issues, I love Dale's Hagrid. 
He is the essential gamekeeper to me and irascible in a nice way. 
Fry's Hagrid sounds too much like a lower class city dweller.

I don't like Fry's Ron at all.  Too high a timbre to his voice, and 
if also interferes with his vocal interpretaions on Ron's dialogue.  
It is his worst voice so far.

I also don't care for Fry's Fred & George.  Dale conveys their 
cheerful criminality and their highly developed and specialized 
senses of humor much better.

Fry recited the Sorting Hat Song very nicely, but he didn't SING it.  
I like that tuneless way Dale does it.

That's all for now.  Any comments?

Haggridd








From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Apr 28 18:08:24 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:08:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste  Test
References: <9cf0e3+3vqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEB0718.1E2F24@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17802



Haggridd wrote:

> Fry recited the Sorting Hat Song very nicely, but he didn't SING it.
> I like that tuneless way Dale does it.
>
> That's all for now.  Any comments?
>

I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that Jim Dale is a singer. I think his most famous pre-HP role was as Barnum, back in 1979 or 1980  - the Broadway version with Glenn Close ( I believe Michael Crawford of Phantom fame did the
London version, although Dale may've done it for a time as well) - I can't seem to find the soundtrack anymore, but it should be discoverable in various used music stores.
I just went to his website & saw that in January, he did a few readings of the HP books in Brooklyn - can the new yorkers try to keep up to date on whether he does any more?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 28 18:22:54 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:22:54 +0100
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <3AEA2223.4425944B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <006801c0d010$5a3bda60$333670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17803

I think my favourite quote from The Onion article is this one, supposedly
from JK Rowling to The Times:

"I think it's absolute rubbish to protest children's books on the grounds
that they are luring children to Satan <snip> People should be praising them
for that! These books guide children to an understanding that the weak,
idiotic Son Of God is a living hoax who will be humiliated when the rain of
fire comes ... while we, his faithful servants, laugh and cavort in
victory."

I find it hard to believe that *anyone* could think that JK Rowling would
make such a ludicrous statement to a major newspaper, but I think this
letter illustrates the tendency of some people  - regardless of their
beliefs - to believe hearsay if it supports their expectations, instead of
the checking the facts.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm










From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Sat Apr 28 18:34:21 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:34:21 -0000
Subject: More Lupin and the moon
In-Reply-To: <3AEAF1C4.3089ADAA@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9cf2fd+vpej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17804

Rita Prince Winston wrote:

> Second, even if the moon hadn't risen yet when Lupin entered the 
Shack (just as holidays happen on the convenient day of the week 
rather than according to the year of the action), it rose while he 
was in the Shack, so why didn't he transform while he was in the 
Shack? As someone already said, if he only transforms when outdoors, 
he wouldn't need Wolfsbane Potion, he could just stay inside that one 
night each month.
> 
> Third, even if the moon hadn't risen yet while Lupin was in the 
Shack, it had already risen behind clouds during their walk outdoors. 
Several people from Britain have pointed out that if Lupin doesn't 
transform if the Full Moon is covered by clouds, then there are more 
months that he doesn't transform than that he does.
> 
> Someone quoted a bunch of references to moonlight in which it didn't
> touch Lupin before the one where it touched him and he transformed, 
but I haven't found those quotes in the book yet.


Here's the quote:  "<snip> Once a month, I was smuggled out of the 
castle, into this place, to transform. The tree was placed at the 
tunnel mouth to stop anyone coming across me while I was 
dangerous."(pg. 353 PoA US)

So this shows that as a child Lupin transformed inside the Shierking 
Shack without being "touched" by the moonlight. As Rita, and I 
believe others have stated, the moon had risen while he was inside 
the Shack or at the very least inside the tunnel. Therefore Lupin 
should have changed during the confrontation with Snape and Peter and 
not after they exited the Whomping Willow. 

Even with the Wolfsbane potion he had still been tranforming inside 
the castle all year without moonlight. I still think JKR has a bit of 
plot hole here, it just wasn't convienent to the story for him to 
transform until they were outside. 

Just another of my 2 knuts.

  Cheers,
         Kristin





From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sat Apr 28 18:37:35 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:37:35 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle 
Message-ID: <9cf2lf+6o99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17805

JKR has confirmed in an interview with BBC Newsround that Crookshanks 
is part-Kneazle. 

Go to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml

Click on "Watch Lizo's latest interview with J.K" to watch the 
interview in RealPlayer.

I remember the speculation there was on this list about Crookshanks 
about a month ago, so I thought I'd pass this on!

Gaynor




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 20:39:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:39:11 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Harry Potter Books]
Message-ID: <3AEB2A6F.4E98EDDF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17806

Just when you're about to write your brother off as totally hopeless, he
goes and does a wonderful thing like this....this is what HE wrote back
to our cousin when she sent him that letter ("Bar" is my nickname).

--Amanda

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fw: Harry Potter Books
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:10:03 -0700

Bar..this was MY response to Alison


Tommy

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Harry Potter Books


> Hate to burst your bubble, cuz...but this has been circling around for a year and the basis for all its supposed harmful, blasphemes come from "the onion.com which is a purely satirical site.....everything on it is made up and this guy quotes the onion as his reasoning.  The people circulating these emails have nothing better to do and don't take the time to check out the validity of their sources!!
>
> Tommy
>



From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 21:18:53 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:18:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: religion in Hong Kong and Evil Hufflepuffs/Good Slytherins)
References: <9cdqbe+tbf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <05ab01c0d028$d456c720$5b0ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 17807

Hello,

> Erm, well for one thing I'm not Christian (though brought up that
> way).  Secondly, I'm English, and had a boyfriend from HK when I was

First, I apologize for my attitude earlier.  It was rather late at night and
tiredness makes me cranky.

> was the one who told me that the majority of people in Hong Kong were
> Christian.  This made sense to me, considering the effect of British

A large number of middle class people are Christian, true.  Quite a large
number of my classmates here are Christian, too.  Your boyfriend is
definitely laboring under a false impression, however.

> I think that Voldemort readily admits that his ancestry is half
> Muggle.  (Although I don't know what he would have done at school).
> So I can't see him making up stories about his background.   I was

Oh, I don't know.  Wasn't Hitler rumored to have a Jewish grandparent? (Is
it true?)  And I agree that he won't be making up stories.  I can, however,
see him omitting information to his students, though.  I mean, he seem to
hate his dad so much that he probably won't mention him anyway.

> trying to get across the point that perhaps he was an exception, and
> what was the likelihood of other muggleborn children being sorted
> into Slytherin.  The decision is made by the sorting hat, afterall,
> and therefore this kind of information would be taken into account.

Hmm.  There don't seem to be Muggle-born children in the Slytherin house
currently.  And V's not completely Muggle-born.  I really do wonder.

little Alex




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 21:16:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 16:16:05 -0500
Subject: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle)
References: <9cf2lf+6o99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEB3315.ABFB4B96@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17808

Gaynor Thomas wrote:

> JKR has confirmed in an interview with BBC Newsround that Crookshanks
> is part-Kneazle.

HAH!

> Go to:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml
>
> Click on "Watch Lizo's latest interview with J.K" to watch the
> interview in RealPlayer.

A quick but nonetheless letter-perfect partial transcript from the audio
of the interview follows, because I'm anal, I'm avoiding doing my
bibliographical work, and I knew Steve vanderArk and Doreen and any
other lesser Lexicon gods would like it in writing. I also love being
right (HAH! to Haggridd....::grins::)

The story date was April 27; I've no idea if this is the actual date the
interview took place.
<begin transcript>
LIZO: And how do you feel about the amazing reaction all over the world
to the two Comic Relief books?

JKR: Oh, that's really fantastic. I don't think I've ever been so,
erm.....It was pure invention, with none of the hardships that are
involved in plot and characterization and so on, so it wasn't like
writing a novel, it was just pure frivolity, and I enjoyed writing so
much. And it was something that....I was able to use all this extra
information I had but I never thought I'd be able to cram into a novel,
because after all you can' t tell the reader absolutely everything, much
as we'd all like to, so it was a way of using that material which
otherwise never would have been published.

LIZO: I mean, there's lots of great bits of information in there...I was
particularly interested in the bit about the Kneazle. Is Crookshanks
possibly, uh, have any Kneazle in him?

JKR: Yes, half Kneazle, yes, he is, yes, well-spotted.

LIZO: Is that important, in....?

JKR: Well, you'll just have to keep reading, won't you, Lizo?

<end transcript>

I listened to this many, many, many times, replaying as I typed and then
re-read, to make sure I got all the phrasing and words correct. So I can
state with some authority that she does indeed say "half." Not "part."
Which makes it pretty clear that one of his parents must have been a
full Kneazle, which begs the question of why he's not registered as
such....? I can see some Kneazle genes making their way into the
population, and I figured he was part Kneazle, but if he's *half,* that
makes it harder to see how his litter slipped through the cracks.

Or *is* he registered? Hermione *was* alone in the pet shop for quite a
while after Ron and Harry fled with Scabbers, she could have been
filling out the paperwork, yes? Is there any good reason she'd have
mentioned this? She's not the bragging sort, just to bring it up in
order to be able to say it. As a Muggle, she might not know all the
characteristics, so that might explain why she didn't defend
Crookshanks' actions toward Scabbers on the basis of his Kneazle
abilities. Whatcha think?

--Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 21:17:17 2001
From: pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com (pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:17:17 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle
In-Reply-To: <9cf2lf+6o99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cfc0t+nvaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17809

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> JKR has confirmed in an interview with BBC Newsround that 
Crookshanks 
> is part-Kneazle. 
> 
> Go to:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml
> 
> Click on "Watch Lizo's latest interview with J.K" to watch the 
> interview in RealPlayer.
> 
> I remember the speculation there was on this list about Crookshanks 
> about a month ago, so I thought I'd pass this on!
> 
> Gaynor

i don't want to sound ignarant, but what is a Kneazle?




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 21:24:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 16:24:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle
References: <9cfc0t+nvaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEB3527.38369FF8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17810

pjmonkey273 at yahoo.com wrote:

> i don't want to sound ignarant, but what is a Kneazle?

It's a magical creature discussed in one of the two "schoolbooks"
released for Comic Relief. Here, hang on...
:::flip, flip:::

"KNEAZLE
M.O.M. Classification XXX
The Kneazle was originally bred in Britain, though it is now exported
worldwide. A small catlike creature with flecked, speckled, or spotted
fur, outsize ears, and a tail like a lion's, the Kneazle is intelligent,
independent, and occasionally aggressive, though if it takes a liking to
a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The Kneazle has an uncanny
ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied
upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost. Kneazles have up
to eight kittens in a litter and can interbreed with cats. Licenses are
required for ownership as (like Crups and Fwoopers) Kneazles are
sufficiently unusual in appearance to attract Muggle interest."
(p. 24, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them)

The explanation of the licensing requirement, by the way, made me think
that perhaps Hermione didn't need a license for Crookshanks because he
physically passes for a cat, albeit a big one. Nor does it say that
mixes must be licensed, just pure ones.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Apr 28 21:50:02 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:50:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010428111844.00a140f0@popmail.libero.it>
References: <988100917.5651.80260.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010428134946.00e3ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17811

At 11:36 AM 4/28/01 +0200, Momiji wrote:
>Albus Dumbledore=Albus Silente

What's "Silente" about him??

>Cornelius Fudge=Cornelius Caramell

But I thought Fudge is named not for a candy but for
"fudge" used as a verb...

>Madam Pomfrey=Madama Chips

She's not named after french fries, is she?

>Mad Eye Moody= Malocchio Moody

Does "Pinocchio" mean "pine eyes" then?

>Nearly Headless Nick=Nick-Quasi-Senza-Testa

If his nickname is that long in Italian, he might as well stick
with "Sir Nicholas De Mimsy-Porpington".

>Parvati Patil=Cal? Patil

After Kali, the Goddess of Blood??
She wouldn't like that, I'm sure...

>Professor Quirrel=Professor Raptor

Doesn't that kind of give away the game?
(Raptor = vicious bird-of-prey or vicious dinosaur)

>Severus Snape=Severus Piton

What if Snape's name *is* an anagram?
(You can't make "Perseus" out of the above!)



                                                 -- Dave




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sat Apr 28 22:31:27 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:31:27 -0000
Subject: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle)
In-Reply-To: <3AEB3315.ABFB4B96@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cfgbv+pgsk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17812

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:


 
> I listened to this many, many, many times, replaying as I typed and 
then
> re-read, to make sure I got all the phrasing and words correct. So 
I can
> state with some authority that she does indeed say "half." 
Not "part."

Not wishing to be argumentative or anything... ;-) I listened to it a 
couple more times and it still sounds like "part" to me. Could other 
people listen to the interview and give us their opinion?

Gaynor 




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 22:30:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:30:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Italian Translations and a little question
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010428111844.00a140f0@popmail.libero.it>
Message-ID: <3AEB449D.F7C06515@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17813

Momiji wrote:

> This is the Italian name's translations :
>
> Argus Filch=Argus Gazza

Are there any connotations or overtones to "gazza" like there are in
English to "filch"? I know nothing of Italian....

> Cornelius Fudge=Cornelius Caramell

Funny, but I bemoan the loss of the double meaning. Fudge is a candy,
but it's also a verb in English.

> Crabbe=Tiger

This gives him entirely too much dignity and presence, don't you think?
Tigers have "positive" overtones, in my mind at least.

> Crookshanks=Grattastinchi

What a regal-sounding mouthful! I love it.

> Fang=Thor

Seems to fit. I like it.

> Gilderoy Lockhart=Gilderoy Allock

Again, does "Allock" have any sort of meaning, sound like any similar
words, in Italian?

> Mad Eye Moody= Malocchio Moody

Does this mean "bad eyes" or "bad head"?

> Marcus Flint=Marcus Flitt

Flitt makes him sound, well, lighter. Not such a malevolent presence.

> Minerva McGonagall=Minerva McGranitt

Ooooh. And this makes *her* sound much less bend-able, much more stern
and unyielding.

> Mrs. Norris=Mrs. Purr

Ugh. No. Ick. Bleah. This is the sort of name my daughter would give a
toy Tribble. No presence at all as a real entity, much less any
unpleasantness.

> Neville=Longbottom Neville Paciock

Is "Paciock" reminiscent of any Italian words? Does this mean anything?

> Oliver Wood=Oliver Baston

Somehow this has the right "feel" to me, I can go with this.

> Penelope Clearwater=Penelope Light

Wonder why they didn't just translate Clearwater.

> Professor Quirrel=Professor Raptor

Quirrell sounds so weenie to me. Reminiscent of quaver and quandary and
other "wavery" words, and rhyming with "squirrel," not the most stable
and dependable (or dangerous) of animals. But Raptor sounds powerful and
dangerous. I don't like this change.

> Severus Snape=Severus Piton

Does "Piton" mean anything?

> Trevor=Oscar

Trevor the Toad was alliterative in English. What's "toad" in Italian?

> Wendelin the Weird=Guendalina la Guercia

This, I like. Does it mean "the weird"? But it surely has a good sound
to it.

> I don't like this translations... Some are perfect, but many are too
> "childish"...

Well, in English many of the associations, and their associated
meanings, are obvious and can seem childish, too. I just wonder at
changing things that would seem perfectly normal, like Parvati's name,
which is an exotic name in England, too.

> And... about the "Lack of curiosity"... why I've not read anything
> about the Harry's parents graves?  Do graves exist?

We don't know. About the graves, that is. There's been some really good
posts just recently about his lack of curiosity--good psychological
reasoning for Harry's reticence about asking. But they must be buried
*someplace,* yes?

Thanks for the names!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Apr 28 22:35:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:35:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is*  part-Kneazle)
References: <9cfgbv+pgsk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEB4598.4DB25399@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17814

Gaynor Thomas wrote:

> Not wishing to be argumentative or anything... ;-) I listened to it a
> couple more times and it still sounds like "part" to me. Could other
> people listen to the interview and give us their opinion?

My RealPlayer was doing this weird glitch thing--at some point during
the interview the sound, which was sort of fuzzy, would get louder and
very sharp. It happened at different times in different playings; I
never lost any words, but it would suddenly alter in tone. It only
happened once per replay, and several times her reply to the Kneazle
question was during the clearer, sharp portion. And she said "half." I'd
originally had it down as "part," but then when it replayed clearer, I
heard it better. I could be wrong, but I've done lotsa transcription
stuff.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Apr 28 22:42:04 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:42:04 -0000
Subject: Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9cf0e3+3vqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cfgvs+cor5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17815

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> >  I lean toward Fry just from (a) the snippet I heard online 
> someplace, (b) the fact  that Ihave not liked Jim Dale from way, 
way 
> back in a Disney movie (Pete's Dragon?), and (c) I want a reading, 
> not an interpretation. 
> > > 
> > > --Amanda
> > 
> > > 
> > But Fry is equally engaging in interpretation as is Dale.  
> 
> As I listen further to Fry's interpretation of PS, I have made the 
> following observations, in no particular order:
> 
> Fry becomes less enjoyable the more ambitious he is in making up 
> voices. His Harry is excellent-- better than Dale's-- because it is 
> essentially Fry's reading voice.  His Aunt Petunia is poor, as is 
his 
> Minerva MacGonagall. 

I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right amount of 
sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her a 
Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and would 
give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS and 
GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well done, 
IMO.
 
> I prefer Fry's voice for Hermione.  It captures her breathless 
> bossiness quite well.  Dale makes her sound too nice too soon.
Yep, I love Stephen Fry's Hermione as well.  I like the way he almost 
speed reads some of it, showing the torrent of words with which she 
sometimes bombards Ron and Harry.

> Irrespective of any authentic dialect issues, I love Dale's Hagrid. 
> He is the essential gamekeeper to me and irascible in a nice way. 
> Fry's Hagrid sounds too much like a lower class city dweller.

I originally objected to Fry's Hagrid - but to me he can't possibly 
sound like a lower class city dweller, because he does an authentic 
West Country accent, which JKR specified.  It has grown on me.

> I don't like Fry's Ron at all.  Too high a timbre to his voice, and 
> if also interferes with his vocal interpretaions on Ron's 
dialogue.  
> It is his worst voice so far.

I don't agree with this.  I don't know whether this is something that 
has developed, but for me, Stephen Fry does convey the right amount 
of sarcasm, bitterness in Ron's voice.  He also makes him sound quite 
biting when he gets older.

> I also don't care for Fry's Fred & George.  Dale conveys their 
> cheerful criminality and their highly developed and specialized 
> senses of humor much better.
Yes - to me they seem almost evil ( and at the very least mean and 
petty ) in the later recordings.

> That's all for now.  Any comments?
> 
> Haggridd

I haven't listened to Jim Dale - so I can't compare, but I don't 
think I could now, because some of Stephen Fry's voices are imprinted 
quite strongly in my mind, and I think that a new interpretation 
would jar.

Interestingly, there is only one passage in the whole four books in 
which I have disagreed with Stephen Fry's interpretation.  It was the 
way he says Hermione's "Neville" after the first DADA lesson with Mad 
Eye Moody.  I only noticed it, because it was the first time I had 
thought - no that doesn't sound quite right.

Catherine




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sat Apr 28 22:44:30 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:44:30 -0000
Subject: International Editions illustrations
Message-ID: <9cfh4e+gev9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17816

I'm just reading PoA in Italian which my parents very kindly brought 
me back from their holiday. 

I love the illustrations in the Italian edition, particularly Harry's 
patronus and Harry looking into a crystal ball. Very cute.

There's illustrations in my Japanese version too...although some of 
them are rather strange(!).

Anyway, I was thinking of uploading some of them to the files section 
so anyone interested could have a look, possibly on the HPforGrownUps-
Graphics group. Do you think this would be OK? I haven't done it 
because I didn't know if there would be copyright issues involved, or 
whether there would be enough space. Could one of the elves please 
advise? ;-) Thanks!

Gaynor




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 28 22:47:55 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:47:55 -0000
Subject: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle)
In-Reply-To: <3AEB3315.ABFB4B96@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cfhar+pomd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17817

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Which makes it pretty clear that one of his parents must have been
> a full Kneazle, which begs the question of why he's not registered
> as such....? I can see some Kneazle genes making their way into the
> population, and I figured he was part Kneazle, but if he's *half,*
> that makes it harder to see how his litter slipped through the 
> cracks.

If tom-Kneazles are anything like tom-cats, it's easy for no one 
(except the Author) to know what genes came from paternal side 
... if queen-Kneazles are anything like queen-cats, each kitten in 
the litter *could* have a different father.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Apr 28 22:49:35 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:49:35 -0000
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010428134946.00e3ac00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cfhdv+h2kl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17818

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> >Parvati Patil=Cal? Patil
> 
> After Kali, the Goddess of Blood??
> She wouldn't like that, I'm sure...

If Parvati Patil is a Hindu, at least if she is a Shavite or a 
Shakta (would that be Shaktini for a female?), she knows that 
Parvati and Kali are the same person.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Apr 28 22:50:08 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:50:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <3AEB449D.F7C06515@texas.net>
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010428111844.00a140f0@popmail.libero.it>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010428154933.00e3f820@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17819

At 05:30 PM 4/28/01 -0500, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> > Mrs. Norris=Mrs. Purr
>
>Ugh. No. Ick. Bleah. This is the sort of name my daughter would give a
>toy Tribble. No presence at all as a real entity, much less any
>unpleasantness.

I guess Jane Austen isn't big in Italy...?



                                                 -- Dave




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Apr 28 23:25:01 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:25:01 +0100
Subject: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents
Message-ID: <00e801c0d03a$735f9b60$253570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17820

A few random thoughts, as Harry Fortnight draws to a close:

HARRY AND MONEY

This is referring back to a previous thread, but I forgot to post this at
the time.

I think it's likely that Harry doesn't realise the extent of his wealth and
that the thought of purchasing anything valuable is (or was) alien to him.
Most of the valuable or valued things he owns were given to him - the
Invisibility Cloak (Jamesokay, inherited), the Firebolt (Sirius), Hedwig
(Hagrid), The Sneakoscope (Ron), The Marauder's Map (The Twins).  I think
JKR uses this to illustrate the fact that, although Harry has money, he
places most value on the things that were given to him.


HARRY'S SCAR (AND HIS GLASSES)

Although it is a curse scar, symbolic of Voldemorts downfall and making
Harry easily identifiable, the lightning bolt scar is a facial disfigurement
that could be a source of embarrassment.  Its interesting that, in this
story, it marks Harry out as different, but different in a positive way (the
scar means hes the famous boy who defeated Voldemort) and not so much in a
negative way (the scar is a facial disfigurement).  We often see Harrys
embarrassment at being singled out, and he does attempt to hide the scar
under his fringe, but it is, nevertheless, a symbol of strength and
protection.  Leaving aside the magical talent, I imagine that a child with
facial scarring might be helped through feeling some affinity with Harry
Potter.

The same positive imagery goes for Harrys glasses.  How many of us who
needed glasses as a child can remember the first day at school wearing them?
I can, vividly.  My friend Andrew told everyone I was a new boy, because he
knew I was feeling so self-conscious.  I remember that protective gesture
too.   I did look a shoot in those chunky, 1970s Joe 90 specs though<g>


HARRY'S PRODIGIOUS TALENTS

Something that occurs to me, when thinking about Harrys exceptional
talents, is a possible parallel with autism.  In a minority of autistics
(known as autistic savants) one or two talents are prodigious but there
is, otherwise, some lack or social withdrawal.  It would be stretching
credulity to suggest that Harry is autistic, but I think there is evidence
that he is often withdrawn, distant, obliviousMight some sort of distance
from the outside world have immured Harry from his cruel treatment at The
Dursleys?

Pondering on this, and trawling through some websites on autism, I found
this touching poem that Id like to share:
http://www.gigglepotz.com/autstar.htm

Neil

________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Apr 28 23:27:33 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:27:33 -0000
Subject: Time Travel: Theories and ParadoxesRe: Two Paradoxes that make my head swim...
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F64hVOJwnzsLqI00003dd9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cfjl5+nq6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17821

Morag (?) wrote:
"Harry, as a baby, mysteriously survived V's curse and sent it back 
to him. In each book, he finds out a little more, and relives a 
little more -perhaps he will actually travel back to that time, and 
that will prove to have been instrumental - I can't wait to find out."

--You've given me inspiration! I know these theories are shakey at 
best but I have to comment on this...

There are two ways this could work out. Firstly Harry, 17 years of 
age, and extremely like his father goes back in time in hopes of 
saving himself from Voldemort in the first place. (Even though he 
knows he can't be successful since he didn't stop V. to begin with. 
Did I mention this is full of holes? Anyway-) Upon arrival he finds 
Voldemort has just killed his father and is advancing on his mother, 
about to kill her too. Stepping in and trying to save the day Harry 
too is killed. The best thing about this is that it works with either 
wand order version. Harry either sees his older-self and THINKS it's 
his father, or he would be the shadow to come out after his mother, 
but he broke the connection first. 

Secondly that Harry doesn't die, but that whatever type of spell he 
casts (on himself) it is what allows him not only to survive V's AK 
but to make it backfire too. 

On a related time travel note how is it that neither Harry nor Ron 
even think that Hermione might have during all of PoA? Surely, though 
rare, it is not an unheard of event? I mean if you KNOW someone is in 
two places at once, or at least suspect so, then wouldn't you 
consider time-travel (especially in a place where magic is so 
ordinary.)

Scott






From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 28 23:35:45 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 16:35:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
References: <9celqj+pldc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c0d03c$5b848300$77fae83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17822


*lol* maybe the books should contain a warning label in the future.
"Adults, read at your own risk, and make sure you have a child handy
to explain anything unclear to you."

Rena

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Krans" <s.a.krans at w...> wrote:
> .  That 'letter' could not be more closed
> > minded and stereotypical Christian (no offense to anyone who might
take
> > offense at it--
>
> I'm not offended. But calling the letter Christian is unfair. The
> proper term  is 'idiotic'. <g>
> I am beginning to think that the Potter books, while harmless to
> children, should probably be kept away from impressionable adults.
> Can anything be done?<vbg>
>
> Pippin
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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>
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> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
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From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 00:22:19 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:22:19 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Ancient Spell
Message-ID: <16.bfa93ef.281cb8bb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17823

Maybe it is because the Durslys are muggles, Mrs. W never actually talked to 
dumbledore...
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 00:12:52 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:12:52 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
References: <9cf0e3+3vqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011101c0d041$903025a0$77fae83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17824

> That's all for now.  Any comments?
>
> Haggridd

I really want a copy of Fry's reading now. Your comments have
definitely spiked my interest. I only have Dale and I quite enjoy it.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen Fry's reading anywhere in store or
library. I guess I have to wait till I go to Germany to get a copy.

Rena




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 00:26:14 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:26:14 -0000
Subject: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents
In-Reply-To: <00e801c0d03a$735f9b60$253570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9cfn36+61kn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17825

Neil Ward wrote:
> 
> HARRY'S SCAR (AND HIS GLASSES)
> 
> Although it is a "curse scar," symbolic of Voldemort's downfall and 
making
> Harry easily identifiable, the lightning bolt scar is a facial 
disfigurement
> that could be a source of embarrassment.  It's interesting that, in 
this
> story, it marks Harry out as different, but different in a positive 
way (the
> scar means he's the famous boy who defeated Voldemort) and not so 
much in a
> negative way (the scar is a facial disfigurement).  We often see 
Harry's
> embarrassment at being singled out, and he does attempt to hide the 
scar
> under his fringe, but it is, nevertheless, a symbol of strength and
> protection.  Leaving aside the magical talent, I imagine that a 
child with
> facial scarring might be helped through feeling some affinity with 
Harry Potter.>

Hi Neil!

I agree with you about Harry's scar.  In SS, Harry knows that his scar 
makes him look different, but he likes it, even though the Dursleys 
are always telling him to cover it up (like when Aunt Petunia cut all 
of his hair except for his bangs, hoping to hide his scar).  Harry is 
actually a bit proud (for someone so humble) of having a scar that 
makes him unique.  It is also something that the Dursleys cannot 
control or erase.

I also like how Harry never complains about his glasses.  He simply 
accepts having to wear them.  In fact, for a somewhat short and skinny 
boy, JK Rowling has created a character who is pretty comfortable in 
his body.  Here in the States kids can get temporary scar tattoes and 
plastic glasses so they can look just like Harry, once again reminding 
them that it is okay to look different.  Kids, like you said, with 
real scars can be encouraged to not try to hide them all the time 
because Harry Potter doesn't hide his.

--jenny from ravenclaw*************************




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 00:33:32 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:33:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF: Sending Harry back to the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <d1.5c7b592.281cbb5c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17826

I would just like to commemerate amanda on all the wounderful posts.  Keep up 
the great work!!

Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 00:39:35 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:39:35 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
Message-ID: <ab.8f0b971.281cbcc7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17827

Draco seems to be under pressure from his father to get good grades...

Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 01:58:47 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:58:47 -0000
Subject: Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <011101c0d041$903025a0$77fae83f@rena>
Message-ID: <9cfsgn+h1h3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17828

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
That's all for now.  Any comments?

--I've listened to snippets of Dale on the net, and listened to most 
of Fry's PS on Boxing Day. From that I much prefer Fry. I don't 
dislike Dale, and it's a definate plus that he sings and doesn't 
recite, I think it's to showy a version. Fry's is more simple and the 
words speak for themselves. 

So I will have to get the Fry versions in England (local stores 
couldn't order them. I could use Amazon.co.uk but...) even if it 
means not eating. :-) Granted I'd like to have both but they aren't 
cheap.

Scott




From scabbers at pacbell.net  Sun Apr 29 02:15:38 2001
From: scabbers at pacbell.net (scabbers at pacbell.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:15:38 -0000
Subject: *delurk* Re: Lupin and the moon
Message-ID: <9cftga+lmon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17829

All right, I've been lurking for a long time, but this topic will make 
me stay awake screaming any time.  There's nothing I can think of to 
make this not a plot hole, unless you want to subscribe to complex 
theories such as "Snape doctored the Wolfsbane Potion, and the moon 
wasn't really full that night," or somesuch.  It's a glaring error, for 
the painful reason that if all Lupin had to do to avoid transformation 
was stay indoors, there never would've been a need for Wormtail, 
Padfoot and Prongs (heresy!)
Another thing... she gives us the date of that night, and it isn't 
consistent with there being a full moon if the others in the book 
occurred around September (the train ride), Halloween (Snape and the 
Potion), and Christmas (Lupin was ill that day). It's actually 
consistent with waning crescent... the most un-werewolfy time I can 
imagine. 
One more thing... it's a common misconception that the full moon rises 
before sunset in the summer.  It doesn't... This year's June full moon 
in Glasgow, Scotland, for example, rises at 10:29 pm while the sun sets 
at 9:55 pm.  Admittedly, there is still twilight, which is perhaps the 
cause of this belief.  If you go further north, past the Arctic Circle, 
the full moon sometimes doesn't even rise in summer (corresponding to 
the sun not setting).  Tourists in Alaska sometimes show up wondering 
what it'd be like to see the full moon and the midnight sun in the sky 
at the same time... it doesn't happen.  Maybe Lupin should spend his 
summers in Iceland?
If anyone comes up with a satisfying theory, my nights would be more 
peaceful... but I suspect JKR just figured we wouldn't notice.  And 
hey, it makes for a dramatic scene with the clouds... auughhh.

*stops before she starts banging head on wall*

Moon
who is a planetary scientist and loves werewolves





From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 02:42:55 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:42:55 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry-James-Lily relationship, posthumous (was: Harry's lack of curiosity)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F142LstPGtPrPr000083b0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17830

Jennifer Piersol wrote:



>My mom died when I was eight.  I know, I wasn't an infant when it
>happened, but I think I have an idea of what goes on in a young kid's
>head when they've lost a parent.  <big snip>
>
>Whew.  Sorry... I suppose this is swerving a bit off-topic, and I had
>considered posting it in OT-Chatter, but I thought about it, and as
>this post *may* provide some insight as to what Harry is going
>through, I thought it'd be more appropriate over here.
>
>Jen (who bared a little of her personal life here, but hopes it's
>relevant to the discussion)

Thanks, Jen, for your brave and generous posting - it gave me a lot to think 
about (hence late reply) and, yes, it *does* make Harry's apparent lack of 
curiousity easier to understand, so I don't think it was OT.  I hope you do 
some day talk to people who knew your mother - you could give them some 
warning and ask if they mind.  I bet they'd be glad to, but had similar 
worries about causing pain to you.
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 03:03:50 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:03:50 -0000
Subject: Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9cfgvs+cor5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cg0am+b2q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17831

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Fry becomes less enjoyable the more ambitious he is in making up 
> > voices. His Harry is excellent-- better than Dale's-- because it 
    is  essentially Fry's reading voice.  His Aunt Petunia is poor,
as is his Minerva MacGonagall. 
> 
> I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right amount  
  of sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her a 
> Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and would 
> give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS and 
> GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well
done, IMO.
> 
> > Irrespective of any authentic dialect issues, I love Dale's 
    Hagrid. He is the essential gamekeeper to me and irascible in     
    a nice way. Fry's Hagrid sounds too much like a lower class city 
    dweller.
> 
> I originally objected to Fry's Hagrid - but to me he can't possibly 
> sound like a lower class city dweller, because he does an authentic 
> West Country accent, which JKR specified.  It has grown on me.
> 
> > I don't like Fry's Ron at all.  Too high a timbre to his voice, 
    and it also interferes with his vocal interpretaions on Ron's 
>   dialogue.  It is his worst voice so far.
> 
> I don't agree with this.  I don't know whether this is something 
  that has developed, but for me, Stephen Fry does convey the right   
  amount of sarcasm, bitterness in Ron's voice.  He also makes him   
  sound quite biting when he gets older.
> 
> I haven't listened to Jim Dale - so I can't compare, but I don't 
> think I could now, because some of Stephen Fry's voices are 
  imprinted  quite strongly in my mind, and I think that a new 
  interpretation would jar.
> 
> Catherine

I have snipped those portions where we agree, Catherine.  I would
love it if you could obtain the Dale recordings, and compare the two. 
I had to overcome my own prior imprinting by the Dale recordings, and 
I hope that nonetheless I have been objective.  

I admit to an American's ignorance on the local dialects, so I cannot 
respond to your comment on Hagrid, but I do like the Dale reading.  

To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
appropriate, and in no way comical.

I am only beginning to listen to Fry, and I am sure that my opinion 
will evolve as I hear more of him.  There is one serious problem that 
I have noticed with Fry, though.  It seems to me that he slips in amd 
out of a voice characterization without any conscious control; and
his voice characterizations are inconsistent.  An example is the Ron 
that you like-- he has already changed Ron's voice and I am still only
listening to PS.

Haggridd






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 03:06:36 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:06:36 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents
Message-ID: <LAW2-F4cR4ZDgC81Tbd000028f4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17832

Neil wrote:



>A few random thoughts, as Harry Fortnight draws to a close:
<snip >
>
>I think it's likely that Harry doesn't realise the extent of his wealth and
>that the thought of purchasing anything valuable is (or was) alien to him.
>Most of the valuable or valued things he owns were given to him - the
>Invisibility Cloak (Jamesokay, inherited), the Firebolt (Sirius), Hedwig
>(Hagrid), The Sneakoscope (Ron), The Marauder's Map (The Twins).  I think
>JKR uses this to illustrate the fact that, although Harry has money, he
>places most value on the things that were given to him.

Interesting how the gifts reflect the givers - I wonder what this says about 
James...but Hagrid gives him a way of keeping in touch with his friends, 
even at the Dursleys, Sirius gives him something that allows his talent to 
shine - and would facilitate a quick getaway <g>, Ron's gift is suspicion, 
but then it probably doesn't work anyway, Fred and George give him an aid to 
rule-breaking - and truth-finding...

>HARRY'S SCAR (AND HIS GLASSES)
>
>Although it is a curse scar, symbolic of Voldemorts downfall and making
>Harry easily identifiable, the lightning bolt scar is a facial 
>disfigurement
>that could be a source of embarrassment.  Its interesting that, in this
>story, it marks Harry out as different, but different in a positive way 
>(the
>scar means hes the famous boy who defeated Voldemort) and not so much in a
>negative way (the scar is a facial disfigurement).  We often see Harrys
>embarrassment at being singled out, and he does attempt to hide the scar
>under his fringe, but it is, nevertheless, a symbol of strength and
>protection.  Leaving aside the magical talent, I imagine that a child with
>facial scarring might be helped through feeling some affinity with Harry
>Potter.
Yes, I could see that.  We are told it's the one thing about his appearance 
that Harry likes.
>
>The same positive imagery goes for Harrys glasses.  How many of us who
>needed glasses as a child can remember the first day at school wearing 
>them?
>I can, vividly.  My friend Andrew told everyone I was a new boy, because he
>knew I was feeling so self-conscious.  I remember that protective gesture
>too.   I did look a shoot in those chunky, 1970s Joe 90 specs though<g>
>
Agree again.  I never thought about it before, but the Dursley's must have 
got him the glasses - and they'd probably pick the worst-looking, cheap pair 
they could find!

>HARRY'S PRODIGIOUS TALENTS
>
>Something that occurs to me, when thinking about Harrys exceptional
>talents, is a possible parallel with autism.  In a minority of autistics
>(known as autistic savants) one or two talents are prodigious but there
>is, otherwise, some lack or social withdrawal.  It would be stretching
>credulity to suggest that Harry is autistic, but I think there is evidence
>that he is often withdrawn, distant, obliviousMight some sort of distance
>from the outside world have immured Harry from his cruel treatment at The
>Dursleys?
>
>Pondering on this, and trawling through some websites on autism, I found
>this touching poem that Id like to share:
>http://www.gigglepotz.com/autstar.htm
>
>Neil
>
>________________________________________
>
>Flying Ford Anglia
>Mechanimagus Moderator
>
>"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
>a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
>squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
>["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]
>
>Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
>to do with this club:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the 
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>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
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From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 03:07:29 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:07:29 -0000
Subject: *delurk* Re: Lupin and the moon
In-Reply-To: <9cftga+lmon@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cg0hh+cth5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17833

Moon (Moon, eh? You SHOULD know!) wrote:
"All right, I've been lurking for a long time, but this topic will 
make me stay awake screaming any time.  There's nothing I can think 
of to make this not a plot hole, unless you want to subscribe to 
complex theories such as "Snape doctored the Wolfsbane Potion, and 
the moon wasn't really full that night," or somesuch.  It's a glaring 
error, for the painful reason that if all Lupin had to do to avoid 
transformation was stay indoors, there never would've been a need for 
Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs (heresy!)"

--Hi and welcome! Unfortunately I am not a list-elf or I'd be glad to 
do whatever they do (What DO they do?). Now I'm thinking that if I'm 
not an Elf I must be something REALLY bad...

Anyway you're absolutely right. I really want to explain it, but 
there doesn't seem to be an explanation does there? I'm certainly not 
satisfied with Jo's answer, which I think was asked by someone in 
this group. It's a glaring mistake, a Flint still stuck at hogwarts 
in his retirement years!

The only thing I've come up with is that maybe taking "Wolfsbane" 
over an extended period of time lessens the effects. However I still 
don't buy it.

"One more thing... it's a common misconception that the full moon 
rises before sunset in the summer.  It doesn't... This year's June 
full moon in Glasgow, Scotland, for example, rises at 10:29 pm while 
the sun sets at 9:55 pm.  Admittedly, there is still twilight, which 
is perhaps the cause of this belief.  If you go further north, past 
the Arctic Circle,  the full moon sometimes doesn't even rise in 
summer (corresponding to the sun not setting).  Tourists in Alaska 
sometimes show up wondering  what it'd be like to see the full moon 
and the midnight sun in the sky  at the same time... it doesn't 
happen.  Maybe Lupin should spend his  summers in Iceland?"

--This is something that confused me on first reading. Harry and 
Hermione went back three turns or three hours from five til' 
midnight. That would be 8:55 pm or 20:55. Surely by then it would at 
least be starting to get dark, and yet "...a stream of golden 
sunlight was falling across the paved floor from the open front 
doors. In my experience twilight does come later in Europe than in 
the states, but even so...

"If anyone comes up with a satisfying theory, my nights would be more 
peaceful... but I suspect JKR just figured we wouldn't notice.  And 
hey, it makes for a dramatic scene with the clouds... auughhh."

--Yes the great explanation device- plot. It can always be used and 
yet don't you hate to rely on it.

Once again welcome to the group!

Moon wrote:
"who is a planetary scientist and loves werewolves"
--Once again something I'm interested in but can't seem to translate 
into any viable career {{{{sigh}}}}

Scott 
Who tried to go stargazing tonight but it was far to fuggy. (Did I 
use that right?) ;-)






From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 03:19:48 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:19:48 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel: Theories and ParadoxesRe: Two Paradoxes that make my head swim...
Message-ID: <LAW2-F100xfPTeip68V00001f8e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17834

Scott wrote:

>Morag (?) wrote:
Yeah, it was me <g>

>"Harry, as a baby, mysteriously survived V's curse and sent it back
>to him. In each book, he finds out a little more, and relives a
>little more -perhaps he will actually travel back to that time, and
>that will prove to have been instrumental - I can't wait to find out."
>
>--You've given me inspiration! I know these theories are shakey at
>best but I have to comment on this...
>
>There are two ways this could work out. Firstly Harry, 17 years of
>age, and extremely like his father goes back in time in hopes of
>saving himself from Voldemort in the first place. (Even though he
>knows he can't be successful since he didn't stop V. to begin with.
>Did I mention this is full of holes? Anyway-) Upon arrival he finds
>Voldemort has just killed his father and is advancing on his mother,
>about to kill her too. Stepping in and trying to save the day Harry
>too is killed. The best thing about this is that it works with either
>wand order version. Harry either sees his older-self and THINKS it's
>his father, or he would be the shadow to come out after his mother,
>but he broke the connection first.
>
>Secondly that Harry doesn't die, but that whatever type of spell he
>casts (on himself) it is what allows him not only to survive V's AK
>but to make it backfire too.

Wow!  I like the idea that he survived (as a baby) because (somehow, details 
to be worked out <g>) he was there as a time-traveller, but I don't want him 
to die.  Another problem is that it marginalises James - I don't want his 
death to have been pointless, or for him to be just another victim.

>On a related time travel note how is it that neither Harry nor Ron
>even think that Hermione might have during all of PoA? Surely, though
>rare, it is not an unheard of event? I mean if you KNOW someone is in
>two places at once, or at least suspect so, then wouldn't you
>consider time-travel (especially in a place where magic is so
>ordinary.)
They are a bit dense here, aren't they?  But then, time-travel does seem to 
be extremely rare.  Harry has no reason to know it's possible, at this 
point, and Ron may not have believed the Ministry would let a schoolgirl 
have a time-turner - I even have trouble with this idea myself! :)

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 03:32:35 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:32:35 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen (was Italian Translations )
Message-ID: <LAW2-F82nzNwRC6Hixq000080db@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17835

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>
>At 05:30 PM 4/28/01 -0500, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> > > Mrs. Norris=Mrs. Purr
> >
> >Ugh. No. Ick. Bleah. This is the sort of name my daughter would give a
> >toy Tribble. No presence at all as a real entity, much less any
> >unpleasantness.
>
>I guess Jane Austen isn't big in Italy...?

I guess not...Apart from Mrs Norris, and Dumbledore's eyes ("light, bright 
and sparkling") has anyone spotted any other Austen moments in HP?  I do 
think Dumbledore's comment about never having enough socks because "people 
will insist on giving me books" could almost have come from one of Jane's 
letters!   Captain Wentworth for DADA teacher, anyone? ;)
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From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 03:36:56 2001
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin and the Full Moon/Draco Malfoy sighting
In-Reply-To: <9cd87j+4m57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010429033656.18736.qmail@web3707.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17836


--- Celeste Chang <celeste_827 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >  I was at a real estate seminar this evening,
> minding
> > my own business,taking notes, trying to get
> something
> > out of this course. About ten minutes into the
> lesson,
> > the door opens and everyone turns around to stare
> at
> > the late-comer,in sauntered Draco. My jaw dropped
> and
> > I just stared. I know he had to have noticed but I
> > could not help myself.He then proceeded to sit
> > directly in front of me! Even with all of the
> > dicriptions of Draco, I had'nt put a face(I had a
> > genral idea)on him until that very moment.Just
> thought
> > i'd share,got a little excited there,had to tell
> > someone.
> 
> Ooooh... *giggles* I bet he was an arrogant looking,
> insolent little 
> hottie, eh? Or not?
> 
> VERY!!!! I wanted to jump over the back of his seat
and grab him(Smile). However, I'm not sure he would
have appreciated it!

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From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun Apr 29 03:40:03 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:40:03 -0000
Subject: [Fwd: Harry Potter Books]
In-Reply-To: <9ceufj+mq4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cg2ej+rs34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17837

Kris wrote:

>> First, I am a very strong Christian, so techinically I guess I 
should support everything that Onion article states...<snip> As for 
the "Jesus was weak and that's why he died" comment.  Again, I think 
that is parenting.<<  

I understand what your post was conveying, but I have just one thing. 
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound as if you actually believe the 
Onion article. You realize that all the quotes and figures from that 
article are entirely a work of satire, and were complete fiction, 
right? You shouldn't feel that technically you should support the 
Onion article, because technically the Onion article is fake. None of 
it was true; they were just making fun of the right-wing Christian 
book-banners. 

If you do realize this, just ignore me. It just appeared from your 
post that you may have put more stock in the Onion than it's really 
worth. :)

Lyda




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 04:17:55 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 04:17:55 -0000
Subject: International Editions illustrations
In-Reply-To: <9cfh4e+gev9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cg4lj+ihor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17838

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> I'm just reading PoA in Italian which my parents very kindly 
brought 
> me back from their holiday. 
> 
> I love the illustrations in the Italian edition, particularly 
Harry's 
> patronus and Harry looking into a crystal ball. Very cute.
> 
> There's illustrations in my Japanese version too...although some of 
> them are rather strange(!).
> 
Speaking of strange, arent the Italian editions the one with the 
really weird covers?  IIRC, the Italian cover of SS/PS has a giant 
mouse growing out of Harrys head, and there is something weird about 
at least one of the other Italian covers.  Does anyone who reads 
Italian have any insights about this?  Did the Italian illustrators 
forget to read the books, or are they on drugs?  Are the 
illustrations inside the book more accurate?

--Joywitch




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 04:26:28 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 04:26:28 -0000
Subject: On Meanness, Evil, and Bowling (was [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks, Wanda;  something odd)
In-Reply-To: <3AEADCCD.849462E3@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cg55k+44op@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17839

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I brought this over from Chatter, since it raised an interesting
> relevant point.
> 
> Rachel Bray wrote:
> about overhearing two kids in the bowling lane next to theirs, 
arguing
> about who was meaner, Snape or Voldemort <details of Rachel's 
bowling
> skills snipped to protect the innocent>
> 
> > Anyway, one of their lines from the argument was this:
> >
> > "Snape is the meanest one because he has a choice to be nice to 
Harry
> > like he's nice to Draco.  Voldemort doesn't have a choice because 
he's
> > evil through and through."
> >
> > Interesting.....
> 
> Indeed. How does the list think "mean" interacts with "evil"? 
Because
> I'll grant this argument, that Snape is meaner. But Voldemort is 
clearly
> more evil. So does being mean have a lot to do with evil at all? Or 
is
> the quality of being mean rather like the quality of being
> ambitious--not evil in and of itself, but more likely than other 
traits
> to lead you in that direction? Or does evil have to do with a 
perception
> of real harm? Because Snape, for all his meanness, does not think 
he's
> doing real harm, I don't think. And Voldemort quite clearly does, 
and
> intends to.
> 
> Interesting observation from the kids.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
I don't think that being "mean" necessarily will lead to "evil."  I'm 
sure we can all think of moments in our lives where we are mean to 
people and we may very well regret our words or actions immediately 
afterwards.  It's easy to be mean to people we care about because we 
know their weaknesses or vulnerabilities and can take advantage of 
them.  It's even easier to be mean to people we don't consider 
friends or equals.  I think that Snape is particularly good at this.  
He takes advantage of Neville's weakness/timidity, he won't hesitate 
to take Hermione down a peg or two if he gets the chance and he will 
goad Harry by making comments about James.  

Is this evil? I guess a point could be made, that yes, it is evil 
because it's not a one-off thing.  It's part of what Snape does.  And 
being mean to people constantly could certainly be interpreted as a 
low grade case of "evil."  However, having said that, I don't think 
that Snape is evil because I attribute a much higher level of hurt 
and hated to someone who is evil.  We don't have evidence that 
Pettigrew was mean (do we or am I forgetting something? My books will 
be returned tomorrow - Praise whatever deity you choose!!)  yet I 
would characterize his actions as evil.

Marianne




From fruitloophotty at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 04:26:45 2001
From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:26:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: International Editions illustrations
Message-ID: <8b.5c659db.281cf205@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17840

<<Speaking of strange, arent the Italian editions the one with the 
really weird covers?? IIRC, the Italian cover of SS/PS has a giant 
mouse growing out of Harrys head, and there is something weird about 
at least one of the other Italian covers.? Does anyone who reads 
Italian have any insights about this?? Did the Italian illustrators 
forget to read the books, or are they on drugs?? Are the 
illustrations inside the book more accurate?>>

I can see why they would have a mouse growing out of Harry's head for PoA. 
Yes, what with Scabbers and all, I can definitely see why they would do that. 
Oh, wait. No, I can't. But I have to say, this does give me urge to fly to 
Italy and purchase the book. That would make reading HP all the more fun. If 
I was feeling bad or just having a generally awful day, I would just whip my 
Italian edition of PS out, and I'm sure all my problems would seem minuscule 
compared to Harry having a rat growing out of his head.

--Connie 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Apr 29 05:45:52 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 05:45:52 -0000
Subject: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle)
In-Reply-To: <3AEB3315.ABFB4B96@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cg9qg+vne1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17841

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Gaynor Thomas wrote:
> 
> > JKR has confirmed in an interview with BBC Newsround that 
Crookshanks
> > is part-Kneazle.
> 
> HAH!
> 
> > Go to:
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml
> >
> > Click on "Watch Lizo's latest interview with J.K" to watch the
> > interview in RealPlayer.
> 
> A quick but nonetheless letter-perfect partial transcript from the 
audio
> of the interview follows, because I'm anal, I'm avoiding doing my
> bibliographical work, and I knew Steve vanderArk and Doreen and any
> other lesser Lexicon gods would like it in writing

Yes, we'd love to have the entire thing in writing. Has anyone typed 
up a transcript yet? I did add the interview to the page that lists 
sources of Lexicon information and I'll be adding this new detail 
about Crookshanks to the Lexicon in a few minutes. But I'd like to 
have the full transcript for some of her other comments. If anyone 
gets it done up in text form, could you let me know?

Oh, the K is apparently silent, I noticed.

Thanks
Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
home of Strictly British, a must-see page for all non-British fans
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Apr 29 06:11:00 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:11:00 -0000
Subject: Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is*  part-Kneazle)
In-Reply-To: <3AEB4598.4DB25399@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cgb9k+10037@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17842

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Gaynor Thomas wrote:
> 
> > Not wishing to be argumentative or anything... ;-) I listened to 
it a
> > couple more times and it still sounds like "part" to me. Could 
other
> > people listen to the interview and give us their opinion?
*********************

If you close your eyes and just listen, rather than doing both 
watching and listening, it is easier to concentrate. I hear, "part". 
I definitely hear the "t" in part.

Doreen
***************************




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 06:11:35 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:11:35 -0000
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010428134946.00e3ac00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cgban+8su7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17843

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 11:36 AM 4/28/01 +0200, Momiji wrote:
> >Albus Dumbledore=Albus Silente
> 
> What's "Silente" about him??

The translator was clearly unfamiliar with "dumbledor" meaning 
"bumblebee", and so just focussed on the "dumb" element.  Bad 
translator.

He/she should have gone with something like "Bombodoro" = "bumblebee 
of gold" ("bombo d'oro").


> >Madam Pomfrey=Madama Chips
> 
> She's not named after french fries, is she?

Gosh, I hope not.  I think her name is a rather transparent 
portmanteau word, made from "comfrey" and "pomade".

comfrey = Any of various hairy perennial Eurasian herbs of the genus 
Symphytum, especially S. officinale, having variously colored flowers 
in coiled cymes and long used in herbal medicine. Also called healing 
herb.

pomade = Perfumed ointment; esp., a fragrant unguent for the hair; 
pomatum; -- originally made from apples. 

Man, I wish they had had JKR explain her names to the translators.
Then, Madame Pomfrey  could have been "Madama Consolida", both playing 
on the herb --"consolida maggiore" in Italian--and simply "to console" 
= "consolare".  Grrr, this is so obvious!

 
> >Mad Eye Moody= Malocchio Moody
> 
> Does "Pinocchio" mean "pine eyes" then?

No, pinocchio meant "pine nut or pine kernel".  Nowadays, the word is 
usually "pinolo".

 
> >Nearly Headless Nick=Nick-Quasi-Senza-Testa
>  
> If his nickname is that long in Italian, he might as well stick
> with "Sir Nicholas De Mimsy-Porpington".

Actually, the Italian is only one letter (and one space) longer, and
at least here, the translation is exact.


> >Parvati Patil=Cal? Patil
> 
> After Kali, the Goddess of Blood??
> She wouldn't like that, I'm sure...

As someone else pointed out Parvati is Kali.  (And heck, they are 
wizards after all.)

 
> >Professor Quirrel=Professor Raptor
> 
> Doesn't that kind of give away the game?
> (Raptor = vicious bird-of-prey or vicious dinosaur)

A bit - though I read "Quirrel" and thought "Hmm, like 'squirrel'.  He 
must be hiding something."

Maybe they could have gone with "Coiattolo".


> >Severus Snape=Severus Piton
> 
> What if Snape's name *is* an anagram?
> (You can't make "Perseus" out of the above!)

Actually you can.  SEvERUS Piton = PERSEUS + v,i,t,o,n

But I'm not exactly clear on what you would do with v,n,a,p,e in
English anyway.  Vapen?  Paven?  Hmmm.

Besides, Severus is a perfectly delightful name on its own.  And I see 
Snape as being related to "sneap" (to blast or blight with cold; to 
chide) and "snipe" (a contemptible person).  And doesn't 'sneap' sound 
like what the dementors do?  :^)

Piton is inexplicable.

....Craig




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun Apr 29 06:42:29 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:42:29 -0000
Subject: I need a word translated!
Message-ID: <9cgd4l+qu7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17844

can someone, who has both the English and the German Version please 
help me!
in the german PoA there are creatures called Hinkepanks. Is the name 
the same in English? It is the only book I don't have in both 
languages.

Mecki




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 08:03:44 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:03:44 -0000
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <3AEB449D.F7C06515@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cght1+clc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17845

Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Momiji wrote:
> > This is the Italian name's translations :
> >
> > Argus Filch=Argus Gazza
> 
> Are there any connotations or overtones to "gazza" like there are in
> English to "filch"? I know nothing of Italian....

It's a magpie as well as a garrulous, gossipy person.  Even if magpies 
are known for their theft, the secondary meaning of a _talkative_ 
gossip misses the point completely.


> > Cornelius Fudge=Cornelius Caramell
> 
> Funny, but I bemoan the loss of the double meaning. Fudge is a
> candy, but it's also a verb in English.

The verb was probably JKR's intended meaning, imho.  I would have used 
 "Tartruffo", a portmanteau between "tartufo" = "truffle" and 
"truffatore" = "a cheat".  Or maybe "Mentino", like "mint", but 
reminiscent of "mentito" = "false", "disguised" (from "mentire" = "to 
lie").  

 
> > Crabbe=Tiger
> 
> This gives him entirely too much dignity and presence, don't you
> think? Tigers have "positive" overtones, in my mind at least.

Mine too.  Why not just something like "Grancho"?  It even sounds good 
with "Gollo", which is what I would have used for "Goyle".  A cross 
between "gargolla" = "gargoyle" and "goloso" = "gluttonous".


> > Crookshanks=Grattastinchi
> 
> What a regal-sounding mouthful! I love it.

Yes, but there are many long words that sound wonderful in Italian.  
After all, "basketball" is "pallacanestro"!

"Grattastinchi" = "scratch shins".  It could have been "Uncinastinchi" 
= "bent shins" or something closer.  :^)


> > Gilderoy Lockhart=Gilderoy Allock
> 
> Again, does "Allock" have any sort of meaning, sound like any
> similar words, in Italian?

"Allocco" is a dolt or a nincompoop.  It misses the romantic/gorgeous 
overtones ("locks of hair", "heart"), but I guess it's not bad.


> > Mad Eye Moody= Malocchio Moody
> 
> Does this mean "bad eyes" or "bad head"?

Bad eye.


> > Marcus Flint=Marcus Flitt
> 
> Flitt makes him sound, well, lighter. Not such a malevolent
> presence.

"Selce" would be "Flint" in Italian, maybe "Selcone" would work.


> > Minerva McGonagall=Minerva McGranitt
> 
> Ooooh. And this makes *her* sound much less bend-able, much more
> stern and unyielding.

Yeah, it's pretty awful.

Incidentally, I've never seen a name origin site comment on the name 
McGonagall, so here it is from a defunct site that I found off Google
(http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:clanhuston.com/name/namei-o.htm)

"Mc Gonigle is an Irish patronymic name, Anglicized from the Gaelic 
Mac Congail, a patronymic form of the name Congal. The given name 
Congal is comprised of Old Celtic elements that mean "high, valour," 
and Mac Congal is literally translated as "Son of Congal." The name is 
 most often found as McGonigle, but McGonagle is a common variation.

So her name is literally "descendant of high valor".  I love JKR!

Perhaps something like "McCorragil" from "corragio" = courage would 
have worked.


> > Mrs. Norris=Mrs. Purr
> 
> Ugh. No. Ick. Bleah. This is the sort of name my daughter would
> give a toy Tribble. No presence at all as a real entity, much less
> any unpleasantness.

And it misses the play on Mrs. Norris which I remember someone 
pointing out is a nod to a character in Jane Austin's, "Mansfield 
Park."


> > Neville=Longbottom Neville Paciock
> 
> Is "Paciock" reminiscent of any Italian words? Does this mean
> anything?

"pacioccone" = "chubby person"


> > Oliver Wood=Oliver Baston
> 
> Somehow this has the right "feel" to me, I can go with this.

"Baston" is a club, cudgel, stick, loaf of French bread.  Like "b?ton" 
in French and "baton" in English.


> > Penelope Clearwater=Penelope Light
> 
> Wonder why they didn't just translate Clearwater.

No idea.  Light is pretty stupid, and "Chiar'acqua" would have been 
just fine, if you ask me.

 
> > Professor Quirrel=Professor Raptor
> 
> Quirrell sounds so weenie to me. Reminiscent of quaver and quandary
> and other "wavery" words, and rhyming with "squirrel," not the most
> stable and dependable (or dangerous) of animals. But Raptor sounds
> powerful and dangerous. I don't like this change.

I commented on this in another post, and I agree, the "qu-" beginning 
is rich with implications.

 
> > Severus Snape=Severus Piton
> 
> Does "Piton" mean anything?

Oh, I missed this in my other post.  "Piton" is "pit?ne" = "python".  
Obviously, the translator chose to interpret "Snape" as a cross 
between "snake" and "snipe".  Thouge I can see the argument that this 
is another of JKR's portmanteaux, I'm not convinced.

 
> > Trevor=Oscar
> 
> Trevor the Toad was alliterative in English. What's "toad" in
> Italian?

It's "rospo".  Perhaps they could have gone with "Roberto il Rospo".  
Besides as I like to play around with my own first name (Robert), I 
note that "Robert" and "Trevor" are near palindromes.


> > Wendelin the Weird=Guendalina la Guercia
> 
> This, I like. Does it mean "the weird"? But it surely has a good
> sound to it.

Well, the "W-" words in English are often "Gu-" in French, Italian, 
Spanish, etc.  "guercia" is cross-eyed.  But worse than that, the 
translator changed the gender!  "Wendelin" is a man's name!  
"Guendalina" is clearly female.


> > I don't like this translations... Some are perfect, but many are
> > too "childish"...
> 
> Well, in English many of the associations, and their associated
> meanings, are obvious and can seem childish, too. I just wonder at
> changing things that would seem perfectly normal, like Parvati's
> name, which is an exotic name in England, too.

I think the real problem is that the translator needed to have a 
glossary of the meanings of the names and their overtones, rather than 
 simply relying on guesses and a poor comprehension of English.

....Craig, translator from time to time




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 08:04:17 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:04:17 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I need a word translated!
References: <9cgd4l+qu7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c101c0d083$03e66d60$1609173f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17846

In the US version it's called a hinkypunk. And I noticed the hinkypunk
is not mentioned in Fantastic Beast and where to find them. An
oversight?

Rena


> can someone, who has both the English and the German Version please
> help me!
> in the german PoA there are creatures called Hinkepanks. Is the name
> the same in English? It is the only book I don't have in both
> languages.
>
> Mecki
>
>
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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 09:26:45 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:26:45 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Spell cast on netiquette file... you are strangely drawn to it  
Message-ID: <018501c0d08e$833cb0a0$773570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17847

## Ford Anglia whips out his wand and shouts "Mnemonicus Repetendum!" ##

Okay, everyone, that's my most powerful reminder spell.  You should now feel
compelled to spend a few minutes reading the 'netiquette tips' file.
Resistance is futile (oh... hang on, that's another list, where I pretend to
be Captain Janeway in thigh boots... Okay: at ease).

We have an all-singing, all-dancing, colourised, wide screen version of the
club's netiquette tips and advice here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquetteTIPS.htm

Or a plain text version, for those of you who prefer things in monchrome:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

As a brief checklist, here are the topics covered in this mysterious
netiquette file:

-If you haven't posted here before...
-Use/note prefixes for some topics.
-Keep the subject line relevant to the content of the post.
-Clearly distinguish your opinions/theories from facts.
-Keep your posts on topic..
-Try to avoid one-line and ultra-short posts.
-Take care when responding to posts.
-Take the time to proofread your posts.
-Be considerate of other members' feelings.

It's not rocket science, of course, but thanks for observing these points
(or perhaps checking them for the first time) and keeping our list on
track...

New members, don't forget that you can reach the List Elves in their
dungeon, by knocking on the oak door at: hp4guelves at yahoo.com.

In general, the Moderator Team can be contacted in the penthouse at the top
of the crooked staircase, here: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

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From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 09:42:38 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:42:38 +1000
Subject: Lupin, Snape, Wolfsbane
Message-ID: <F22i4omRXf2LTrpwACk0001190e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17848

>"All right, I've been lurking for a long time, but this topic will make me 
>stay awake screaming any time.  There's nothing I can think of to make this 
>not a plot hole, unless you want to subscribe to complex theories such as 
>"Snape doctored the Wolfsbane Potion, and the moon wasn't really full that 
>night," or somesuch.  It's a glaring error, for the painful reason that if 
>all Lupin had to do to avoid transformation was stay indoors, there never 
>would've been a need for Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs (heresy!)"

>Anyway you're absolutely right. I really want to explain it, but there 
>doesn't seem to be an explanation does there? I'm certainly not satisfied 
>with Jo's answer, which I think was asked by someone in this group. It's a 
>glaring mistake, a Flint still stuck at hogwarts in his retirement years!

>The only thing I've come up with is that maybe taking "Wolfsbane" over an 
>extended period of time lessens the effects. However I still don't buy it.

Ok, I'm not sure if you're both referring to a specific incident, but this 
is how I understood this part of the story:
Lupin as a student got sent to that "haunted house" at Hogsmede for his 
monthly transformation.
JK was blunt about the wolfsbane potion being difficult to make, and above 
the level of an ordinary wizard. That it needed someone who was proficient 
at potions, which Snape is.
However, maybe when Lupin was a student there was not a teacher who could 
make this potion. And even if they could it might not have been invented 
yet. There is some detail in one of the books about the division of the 
ministry that works on trying out new magics and the like.
So he got sent to the house. The marauderers went there to keep him company, 
it must have been boring...?
So then when he is a teacher, Snape is handy to make the potion for him when 
it's needed.
This however, does not explain how he got through his life between school 
and teaching. Maybe he was a hermit, I cannot remember JK's explaination.
So, in any case, if you are talking of a specific incident I would like to 
know the reference. I would be interested to reread this part.

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 10:16:24 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:16:24 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Snape, Wolfsbane
In-Reply-To: <F22i4omRXf2LTrpwACk0001190e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cgplo+62fv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17849

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tina Smart" <vaile2000 at h...> wrote:
> >"All right, I've been lurking for a long time, but this topic will 
make me 
> >stay awake screaming any time.  There's nothing I can think of to 
make this 
> >not a plot hole, unless you want to subscribe to complex theories 
such as 
> >"Snape doctored the Wolfsbane Potion, and the moon wasn't really 
full that 
> >night," or somesuch.  It's a glaring error, for the painful reason 
that if 
> >all Lupin had to do to avoid transformation was stay indoors, 
there never 
> >would've been a need for Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs (heresy!)"
> 
> >Anyway you're absolutely right. I really want to explain it, but 
there 
> >doesn't seem to be an explanation does there? I'm certainly not 
satisfied 
> >with Jo's answer, which I think was asked by someone in this 
group. It's a 
> >glaring mistake, a Flint still stuck at hogwarts in his retirement 
years!
> 
> >The only thing I've come up with is that maybe taking "Wolfsbane" 
over an 
> >extended period of time lessens the effects. However I still don't 
buy it.
> 
> Ok, I'm not sure if you're both referring to a specific incident, 
but this 
> is how I understood this part of the story:
> Lupin as a student got sent to that "haunted house" at Hogsmede for 
his 
> monthly transformation.
> JK was blunt about the wolfsbane potion being difficult to make, 
and above 
> the level of an ordinary wizard. That it needed someone who was 
proficient 
> at potions, which Snape is.
> However, maybe when Lupin was a student there was not a teacher who 
could 
> make this potion. And even if they could it might not have been 
invented 
> yet. There is some detail in one of the books about the division of 
the 
> ministry that works on trying out new magics and the like.
> So he got sent to the house. The marauderers went there to keep him 
company, 
> it must have been boring...?
> So then when he is a teacher, Snape is handy to make the potion for 
him when 
> it's needed.
> This however, does not explain how he got through his life between 
school 
> and teaching. Maybe he was a hermit, I cannot remember JK's 
explaination.
> So, in any case, if you are talking of a specific incident I would 
like to 
> know the reference. I would be interested to reread this part.
> 
> Tina.
> 

Sorry about the brevity of this message, but whilst in the Shreiking 
Shack, Lupin does say that the potion is of very recent discovery.  
Ch.18/PoA.  (English edition pg 258)

Catherine




From madhuri567 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 10:35:26 2001
From: madhuri567 at yahoo.com (Madhuri)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:35:26 -0000
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <9cfhdv+h2kl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cgqpe+8dej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17850

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> > >Parvati Patil=Cal? Patil
> > 
> > After Kali, the Goddess of Blood??
> > She wouldn't like that, I'm sure...
> 
> If Parvati Patil is a Hindu, at least if she is a Shavite or a 
> Shakta (would that be Shaktini for a female?), she knows that 
> Parvati and Kali are the same person.

Actually, Kali isn't the Goddess of Blood. She is sometimes portrayed 
as a very ferocious Goddess who slays demons and is sometimes 
portayed as a very beautiful, yet powerful goddess.

And I doubt whether Parvati is a Shaivite although she has a shaivite 
name, as her sister Padma has a Vaishnavite name.

Although in my Vaishnavite family, my brother's middle name is a 
Shaivite one...

I guess it all depends on how strictly you adhere to the Hindu 
cultural codes.

Madhuri




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Apr 29 10:32:22 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:32:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen (was Italian Translations )
References: <LAW2-F82nzNwRC6Hixq000080db@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AEBEDB5.8A1A35DA@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 17851



Morag Traynor wrote:

> Real-To:  "Morag Traynor" <moragt at hotmail.com>
>
> Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> >
> >I guess Jane Austen isn't big in Italy...?
>
> I guess not...Apart from Mrs Norris, and Dumbledore's eyes ("light, bright
> and sparkling") has anyone spotted any other Austen moments in HP?  I do
> think Dumbledore's comment about never having enough socks because "people
> will insist on giving me books" could almost have come from one of Jane's
> letters!   Captain Wentworth for DADA teacher, anyone? ;)

Funny you should suggest that! I've actually been writing (off & on over the past 10 weeks - and there's a lot more to come) a fanfiction where I'm literally, almost work for word, putting the HP characters into Pride & Prejudice. The funny
thing is, it works really well - almost better than putting the characters from Bridget Jones' Diary into P&P, which is odd, given that BJD is purportedly a retelling of P&P (except, as my husband says, Elizabeth Bennett never made a fool of
herself, as BJ is wont to do (yes, he used the word wont. We do that sometimes))

Hermione may be JK Rowling's "self" in HP, but if that's the case, then JKR wants to be Elizabeth Bennett - and how can you blame her? She's absolutely terrific.
In my chapters, the casting is malliable - in other words, just because Ron is Jane in one scene doesn't mean he can't be Wickham in most of the others, and Lydia in an upcoming bit, but I've mae a few steady parallels:
Draco is Darcy - at least, I hope he will be, and even though I have no canon basis for it, I am hoping that JKR has him turn out to be Darcy-esque (and no, I do not mean simply wearing a wet shirt!) in the sense that he recognizes that he's
expressed prejudicially gitty attitudes and actions, and overcome them - maybe not for love (although I do like D/H) but any reason would be good!
Snape has a lot of Lady Catherine characteristics, especially in Neville's Boggart, but his general attitude towards his students is similar to her level of condescention that she shows to everyone other than Darcy (i.e. Draco)
Harry has a lot of Jane in him - nice and good and true and stalwart
And Peter Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack acts like Mr Collins would in that situation, doesn't he?

now....do I have time to start working on my MWPP (Moony Wormtail Padfoot & Prongs) version of Emma, with Lily as Emma and James as Knightly, and which gets all slashy as Remus takes Jane Fairfax's lines (poor? teacher? yeah!) and Sirius has
Frank Churchill's........





From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 10:42:22 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:42:22 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I need a word translated!
References: <9cgd4l+qu7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c0d099$142de660$e12c07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 17852

Yes, they are called Hinkepank in German and Hinkypunk in English. Don't
know why they changed that name, after all they left the others mostly
intact. Though "Schnatz" for "snitch" never fails to amuse me <g>.

 ~ Dinah ~

ICQ: 10 44 52 471
YM: bludger_witch

Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the register, and like
Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Apr 29 10:49:54 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:49:54 +0100
Subject: Understanding SHIPping, Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
Message-ID: <011101c0d09a$202f84e0$af8a78d5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 17853

OK, I have to admit, listening to the wonderful Stephen fry reading of
GOF, I actually can see why people have the FITD theory and I DO see
what the fuss about the kiss is ! ( Huh, say those of you who witnessed
my objections to The Kiss debate last Christmas, she finally gets it ! )

I am still a no-shipper as such as I have no real preference as to who
should be with whom. I just see that the question is there and JKR
intends to deal with it.

As for Ludo Bagman. Well I know that Dumbledore states ant the end of
The Pensieve chapter that LB is NOT a DE but I wonder... Winky is
obviously a very loyal elf and I don't think she would have been so
vehement about LB at the end of " The House Elf Liberation Front "
without good reason.

I think Ludo is one to watch.

I'm really enjoying GOF on tape - just wish it weren't so very long !!

Michelle




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Apr 29 12:29:21 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:29:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots?  Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
References: <9cg0am+b2q7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c0d0a8$054eb020$3a690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17855


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Haggridd 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 11:03 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
  > 
  > I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right amount  
    of sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her a 
  > Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and would 
  > give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS and 
  > GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well
  done, IMO.
  > 
   To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
  appropriate, and in no way comical.


  I was wondering about that comment.  Why would a Scottish accent be considered comical?  Is that a bit of local prejudice?  I also find it interesting that Rowling, who lives in Scotland and has set Hogwarts in Scotland, has given us no overtly scottish characters, aside from, possibly, McGonagall and MacNair...unless I'm missing something (and I'm sure you'll all let me know if I am :)
  Other than that we have a rather diverse group of characters of African, Irish, Eastern and Asian descent. Where are the Scots?  And what about the Welsh, for that matter?

  Ender 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sun Apr 29 12:49:52 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:49:52 -0000
Subject: International Editions illustrations
In-Reply-To: <9cg4lj+ihor@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ch2lg+103ji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17856

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> > 
> Speaking of strange, arent the Italian editions the one with the 
> really weird covers?  IIRC, the Italian cover of SS/PS has a giant 
> mouse growing out of Harrys head, and there is something weird 
about 
> at least one of the other Italian covers.  

The cover of the CoS Italian edition has Harry flying on a book 
(diary?)with what looks like a snake growing out of his head(?!!)

> Did the Italian illustrators 
> forget to read the books, or are they on drugs?  Are the 
> illustrations inside the book more accurate?

I think the cover illustrator is on drugs ;-) although the cover for 
PoA is relatively normal(ie nothing growing out of Harry's head!)

As for the inside illustrations, I think they *have* read the book 
because the illustrations couldn't really be drawn without reading - 
the picture of the Monster Books of Monsters fighting in their cage, 
the Grim in the tealeaves, for example. I've only got PoA in Italian 
though, so I can't speak for the first two books. 

Gaynor






From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 13:07:26 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
In-Reply-To: <011101c0d09a$202f84e0$af8a78d5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <20010429130726.19763.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17857


--- Michelle Apostolides
<michelleapostolides at lineone.net> wrote:

> 
> As for Ludo Bagman. Well I know that Dumbledore
> states ant the end of
> The Pensieve chapter that LB is NOT a DE but I
> wonder... Winky is
> obviously a very loyal elf and I don't think she
> would have been so
> vehement about LB at the end of " The House Elf
> Liberation Front "
> without good reason.
> 
> I think Ludo is one to watch.
> 
Having just finished listening to the audio GoF (Dale
version) myself, I have to say I had the same
thoughts. The first three times I read GoF, I was sure
Bagman was a red herring; now I'm not so sure. I think
we're being lured into a false sense of security:
we're supposed to think Bagman's a red herring, when
he's actually not! Sure, we're told he disappeared
after the third task because he lost his bet with the
goblins. But this is Fred and George's take. Perhaps
he felt the dark mark burn as well, and that's why he
disappeared... Also in his trail scene, the jury
seemed awfully swayed by his fame and popularity.

Question is, is this the spin the performers are
putting on things? Or just a new perspecitve on our
parts as listeners, rather than readers. After all, we
both got similar impressions from different audio
versions.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Apr 29 13:40:20 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:40:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
References: <20010429130726.19763.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003801c0d0b1$f0294840$a755063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 17858

> Question is, is this the spin the performers are
> putting on things? Or just a new perspective on our
> parts as listeners, rather than readers. After all, we
> both got similar impressions from different audio
> versions.

I have got the Dale GOF, but haven't had the patience to sit through it
after he annoyed the wotsit out of me when I listened to POA. But I'm
pretty sure that Stephen Fry consults JKR about things ( don't know
about Dale ) so I suspect that the Winky scene is a clue.

Come on, I know that there are other Brits who've heard the SF version.
Chip in !!

Michelle




From wings909 at aol.com  Sun Apr 29 14:25:17 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:25:17 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
Message-ID: <a8.149f4653.281d7e4d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17859

That's funny this is mentioned.  I have the skelton of a fic already with 
Ginny as Emma, Harry as Mr. Knightley,  Ron and Hermione would be a stronger 
Mr. Martin and Harriett, Draco is of course- Frank Churchill, and I had 
either Lavender or Parvati as Poor Jane.

Then there's my Sense and Sensibility work with Hermione and Ginny as Elinor 
and Marianne.  

Alas, I have forbidded myself to do anything until I get my finals done, 
which are due on tuesday....

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

"At that moment, there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed 
figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small 
squeal, and ran out again." The Chamber of Secrets 
    




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 14:31:25 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:31:25 -0000
Subject: Where are the Scots?  Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <001b01c0d0a8$054eb020$3a690f3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9ch8jt+rk6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17860

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Haggridd 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 11:03 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. 
Fry Taste Test
> 
> 
>   --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>   > 
>   > I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right 
amount  
>     of sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her 
a 
>   > Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and 
would 
>   > give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS 
and 
>   > GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well
>   done, IMO.
>   > 
>    To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
>   appropriate, and in no way comical.
> 
> 
>   I was wondering about that comment.  Why would a Scottish accent 
be considered comical?  Is that a bit of local prejudice?  I also 
find it interesting that Rowling, who lives in Scotland and has set 
Hogwarts in Scotland, has given us no overtly scottish characters, 
aside from, possibly, McGonagall and MacNair...unless I'm missing 
something (and I'm sure you'll all let me know if I am :)
>   Other than that we have a rather diverse group of characters of 
African, Irish, Eastern and Asian descent. Where are the Scots?  And 
what about the Welsh, for that matter?
> 
>   Ender 

Clarification:  I don't think that the Scottish accent is 
funny/comical.  In fact, I really like it - it is very expressive and 
can sound quite soft and musical.  But, when most actors attempt it, 
it becomes overblown and OTT - or they slip in and out of it too 
much.  I am not saying that Stephen Fry would do the same thing, but 
it is possible.  

The other reason why I prefer Prof McGonagall accentless is that no 
where in canon does she sound as though she does have a Scottish 
accent.  I am probably going to be shot down now by everyone who 
lives in Scotland/is Scottish (and I am part - I have relatives in 
Glasgow) but most people I know from Scotland don't merely speak with 
a Scottish accent, but there are also certain words of dialect they 
will use - however slightly.  There is no indication of this at all 
in JKR's McGonagall.  After all - just because her name is Scottish 
doesn't mean she was brought up in Scotland, does it?

Catherine
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Apr 29 14:31:37 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:31:37 -0000
Subject: Where are the Scots?  Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <001b01c0d0a8$054eb020$3a690f3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9ch8k9+b9jc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17861

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:

>    To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
>   appropriate, and in no way comical.
> 
> 
>   I was wondering about that comment.  Why would a Scottish accent 
be considered comical?  Is that a bit of local prejudice?  I also 
find it interesting that Rowling, who lives in Scotland and has set 
Hogwarts in Scotland, has given us no overtly scottish characters, 
aside from, possibly, McGonagall and MacNair...unless I'm missing 
something (and I'm sure you'll all let me know if I am :)
>   Other than that we have a rather diverse group of characters of 
African, Irish, Eastern and Asian descent. Where are the Scots?  And 
what about the Welsh, for that matter?
> 

Hagrid, especially in SS/PS, "sounded" Scottish to me when I read it. 
The diction of his dialogue seemed to follow the Scottish accent. 
Granted it's not written as definitively (stereotypically?)Scottish 
as Brian Jacques' style of portraying various UK accents, but Hagrid 
sounded Scottish (or maybe a little Northern).

I also have the sense that Moody is a Scot too from his use of 
stereotypic words "Oh no you don't laddie". But you are right. 
Rowling doesn't use much onomatopoeia (I think that is the right 
term) in her characters' dictions as other authors like Brian 
Jacques. But it makes reading her books easier than Jacques. 

:-)Milz




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun Apr 29 15:57:44 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:57:44 -0000
Subject: DADA- EXAM!!
Message-ID: <9chdlo+5n3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17862

 Okay, here you go!
Please remember to post the answers Off-list!


1) Which charm do you use to remove chewing-gum out of a key-hole?

2) What does Gilderoy Lockhart use to trap a Ghoul?

3) Describe Kappas!
3.1) What do they look like?
3.2) Where do you find them?
3.2) Explain their behaviour?
3.4) How do you beat them?

4) Describe Pixies!
4.1) What do they look like
4.2) Where do you find them?
4.3) Explain their behaviour?
4.4) Why are they so dangerous?
4.5) Name the charm to catch them

5) Describe Werewolves!
5.1) Name the differences between Werewolves and normal Wolves?<partly 
op.>
5.2) Explain the changes of behaviour before, during and after the 
full moon!<partly op.>
5.3) What did Gilderoy Lockhart do when he met a werewolf? Which charm 
did he use?
5.4) How do you kill a werewolf?<op>

6) Describe Curses
6.1) Describe the unforgivable curses?
6.2) why are they called that way?
6.3) describe the possibilities or counter-curses to fight off these 
curses

7) Describe Gilderoy Lockhart
7.1) What is Lockharts favorite colour?
7.2) What is Lockhart's secret ambition?
7.3) What is Lockhart's greatest achievement?
7.4) What would be an ideal birthday-present for Lockhart?
7.5) What on Earth has that got to do with DADA?<op><vbg>

8) Which charm do you use to let an obstacle or creature grow?

9)   Describe Red Caps!
9.1) What do they look like?
9.2) Where do you find them?
9.3) Describe their behaviour?
9.4) How do you beat them?

10) Describe Boggarts!
10.1) What is a Boggart?
10.2) How does he react?
10.3) Why is it easier not to meet a Boggart alone?
10.4) What do Boggarts fear?
10.5) How do you beat down a Boggart? What charm do you use?
10.6) What would a Boggart look like for you and why? What do you do?

11) Describe Grindelows!
11.1) What does it look like?
11.2) Where do you find them?
11.3) Explain their behaviour
11.4) How do you beat them

12) Describe Hinkypunks!
12.1) What do they look like?
12.2) Where do you find them?
12.3) Explain their behaviour?
12.4) How do you react?

13)  What charm do you use to shrink an obstacle or a creature?


Good luck!
I'm looking forward to your answers!

Mecki






From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun Apr 29 15:57:59 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:57:59 -0000
Subject: DADA- EXAMS: intro
Message-ID: <9chdm7+kuab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17863

Hi All!

Here it is, the promised DADA- Exam!
It is not about Harry's personal interaction with a DADA- Teacher, but 
only about the actual lessons to the entire class!

Some of the questions have been aroused in class, but the answers are 
only to be found in the schoolbooks. (You did, of course, learn all 
your books by heart?<vbg>)

<op.>    If this sign is attached to the question, the subject was 
discussed in class, but we are not told the answers.
In that case, I ask for your imagination and am looking forward to 
different Ideas (with the fitting explanations please!).Maybe some new 
discussion-points will erupt?

Test-results are to be sent to me Off-List to give everybody a chance 
of an individual go at it.
Tests reached in until Monday 8.May, 8.oo.a.m European time ( = 0.00 
a.m. US Eastern) will be corrected and counted.

Now, the 'no-cheating- charm' is hexed on your computers.

While the results have to be sent Off-list, I do look forwards to 
On-List comments on the test itself, if it is:

a) quite fun, actually :-)
b) Not bad, if you have nothing else to do :-
c) Dull and boring, a complete waste of time L

I hope you enjoy solving it as much as I did developing
Mecki






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 16:13:11 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:13:11 -0000
Subject: Onomatopoeia (Was Where are the Scots? Was Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry) 
In-Reply-To: <9ch8k9+b9jc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9chein+tmmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17864

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote
> I also have the sense that Moody is a Scot too from his use of 
> stereotypic words "Oh no you don't laddie". But you are right. 
> Rowling doesn't use much onomatopoeia (I think that is the right 
> term) in her characters' dictions as other authors like Brian 
> Jacques. But it makes reading her books easier than Jacques. 
> 
> :-)Milz

Onomatopoeia is the use of a word that sounds like the thing that the 
word is supposed to be or to do, e.g., the "boom" of a cannon, the 
"whisper" of a muffled voice, the "sussuration" of the wind over the 
grass, the "whine" of a pouting child's voice, the "buzz" of an 
insect flying near your ear, the "rattle" of a rattle snake--or a 
rattle itself, for that matter.  Is this what you meant to say?  I 
don't know of any example with relation to Scots, other that the
Scots burr; but it is the word "burr" that is onomatopoetic, not 
the "r-r-r" trill as printed on a page.  Just because JKR doesn't 
trill her "r's" in print does not mean that her Scots don't speak
with a Scottish accent.  I would include Moody among the Scots as 
well.

Haggridd




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 01:48:08 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:48:08 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Meanness, Evil, and Bowling (was [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks, Wanda; something odd)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F44n20lbhsKd6Q00008132@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17865

Amanda wrote:
<snip>
>How does the list think "mean" interacts with "evil"? Because I'll grant 
>this argument, that Snape is meaner. But Voldemort is >clearly more evil. 
>So does being mean have a lot to do with evil at >all? Or is the quality of 
>being mean rather like the quality of being ambitious--not evil in and of 
>itself, but more likely than other >traits to lead you in that direction? 
>Or does evil have to do with a >perception of real harm? Because Snape, for 
>all his meanness, does not >think he's doing real harm, I don't think. And 
>Voldemort quite clearly >does, and intends to.

Hmmm...interesting, as you say.  I think "mean" is basically projecting a 
poor self-image onto others in petty ways, while "evil" is regarding other 
people as nothing.  You can pity someone who is mean, and they can only 
really hurt you if you let them, that is, if what they project onto you 
chimes with your own self-image.  Evil is dangerous and must be resisted.

So, for instance, Snape's "I see no difference" comment hurts Hermione 
because she is sensitive about her appearance generally, as well as at that 
particular moment.  The fact that Harry doesn't generally rise to Snape's 
baiting is another indication of Harry's admirably good self-image, 
considering the circumstances in which he grew up.

When he encounters Voldemort, Harry's overwhelming wish is simply to resist 
him, even when he has no hope of surviving.  Of course, Voldy is mean, too - 
he enjoys terrorising his supporters - but "kill the spare" is not mean, it 
is evil.  It's not a more extreme version of what Snape does, it's something 
completely different.

_________________________________________________________________________
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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 17:28:42 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:28:42 +0100
Subject: DADA- EXAMS - comments to OT Chatter please... 
References: <9chdm7+kuab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004301c0d0d1$d67e0820$6b3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17866

Mecki: Thanks for the quiz - that should keep people chewing their pencils
for a while!

You said:

> While the results have to be sent Off-list, I do look forwards to On-List
comments on the test itself, if it is:

> a) quite fun, actually :-)
> b) Not bad, if you have nothing else to do :-
> c) Dull and boring, a complete waste of time L

Everyone, please post any comments on Mecki's quiz to OT Chatter or directly
to Mecki, not to this list.

Thanks

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 18:32:57 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:32:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I need a word translated!
In-Reply-To: <9cgd4l+qu7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010429183257.10776.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17867

--- meckelburg at foni.net wrote:
> can someone, who has both the English and the German
> Version please 
> help me!
> in the german PoA there are creatures called
> Hinkepanks. Is the name 
> the same in English? It is the only book I don't
> have in both 
> languages.

The word in English in "Hinkypuck".  I have no idea
where it comes from.  I'm not sure if it's one of the
creatures JKR made up, or if it was based off a
legend.  Anyone know?


Andrea


=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 18:51:08 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:51:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Understanding SHIPping, Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
In-Reply-To: <011101c0d09a$202f84e0$af8a78d5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <20010429185108.5311.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17868

--- Michelle Apostolides wrote: 
> As for Ludo Bagman. Well I know that Dumbledore
> states ant the end of
> The Pensieve chapter that LB is NOT a DE but I
> wonder... Winky is
> obviously a very loyal elf and I don't think she
> would have been so
> vehement about LB at the end of " The House Elf
> Liberation Front "
> without good reason.
> I think Ludo is one to watch.

I agree to a certain extent.  I think Ludo *was*
really a DE, not just an innocent dupe.  It only
occurred to me in my last reading of GOF, but remember
that Ludo also ran off after the TWT, not just
Karkaroff.  Fred and George say it was because of the
goblins, but what if *Ludo* was who Voldie was
referring to as the coward?


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 29 18:54:25 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:54:25 -0700
Subject: Full Moon - Italian Translation, what people have posted about names
Message-ID: <3AEC6360.68251AE7@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17869

Moon wrote:
> All right, I've been lurking for a long time, but this topic will
> make me stay awake screaming any time. (snip)
> it's a common misconception that the full moon rises
> before sunset in the summer.  It doesn't...

Hey, Moon! It might be worth having you stay awake screaming in order to
have you posting. Oh, I guess that's selfish of me <g>.

I'm *sure* that I have seen the Moon in the blue daytime sky especially
on summer late afternoons.... What was I seeing?

Scott signed off:
> Who tried to go stargazing tonight but it was far to fuggy
> . (Did I use that right?) ;-)

"too" not "to" <g>
As I understand it, if the fog didn't smell bad, it wasn't fug.
Actually, I don't think I've ever heard 'fug' used outdoors. It seems to
be always a room that needs airing out.

Joywitch wrote:
> IIRC, the Italian cover of SS/PS has a giant mouse
> growing out of Harrys head,

I thought it was a Giant Mouse-shaped Hat. All I could think of was that
it referred to the six white mice that came from one of the Christmas
crackers and may have ended up as Mrs. Norris's Christmas dinner. Funny
hats came out of the crackers as well as gifts.

R. Craig wrote:
> Madam Pomfrey (snip) I think her name is a rather transparent
> portmanteau word, made from "comfrey" and "pomade".
> Comfrey (snip) Also called healing herb.

I think "Pomfrey" is an actual name that real people have, and JKR chose
it for its resemblance to "comfrey". I don't think the reference to
"pomade" was *consciously* intended, so I would use the phraseology that
the name has overtones rather than that it is a portmanteau. Because
'portmanteau' means to me that it is intentional. Her first name, Poppy,
is also a medicinal herb (opiates) and someone suggested that her
husband might be named Herb Pomfrey.

> And I see Snape as being related to "sneap" (to blast
> or blight with cold; to chide) and "snipe" (a contemptible person)
(jump cut to another post)
>  "Piton" is "pitne" = "python". Obviously, the translator chose to
> interpret "Snape" as a cross between "snake" and "snipe".
> Though I can see the argument that this  is another of JKR's
> portmanteaux, I'm not convinced.

JKR insists that she took the name Snape from a map. I don't see how she
could have been attracted to the sound of the name without being
reminded of 'snake' among the overtones.

I hadn't previously seen the spelling 'sneap' but because of you now I
learn that that was what Blaise was talking about in message #6985 on
the old list on  8/16/00
Subject: Names - Snape
     I was delighted to find that the word 'snape' actually has a
meaning beyond simply being a place-name (in that context it means a
boggy patch of ground). To snape someone means to rebuke or hurt them,
and a snape is a rebuke.
     It's an almost obsolete English dialectical word from the Norse, if
anyone cares.
     JKR really knows her stuff! A very suitable name for Severus.

I don't know 'snipe' as meaning 'a contemptible person'. I know 'snipe'
as a verb, maybe back-derived from 'sniper', that means --well, like
heckling -- not leading but constantly criticizing the leader's plans.
There is also the phrase 'snipe hunt', which is like 'wild goose chase'
except the (relative) old-timers deliberately trick the newcomers into
going on a snipe hunt.

>  "Wendelin" is a man's name!
> "Guendalina" is clearly female.

I think Wendelin is a female name, a spelling variant of Gwendolyn. (Or
possibly a feminized form of Waendel.)

Let me check the canon: "Indeed, Wendelin the Weird enjoyed being burned
so much that she allowed herself to be caught no less than fortyseven
times in various disguises."

"She" allowed "herself" to be caught.

> Incidentally, I've never seen a name origin site comment
> on the name McGonagall, so here it is from a defunct site
> that I found off Google "Mc Gonigle is an Irish patronymic name,
> (snip) So her name is literally "descendant of high valor".  I love
JKR!

Someone told some list that McGonagall was the surname of some guy who
is widely believed to have been the worst poet ever in the English
language.

Catherine wrote:
> After all - just because her name is Scottish doesn't mean
> she was brought up in Scotland, does it?

She also wore a tartan dress robe in GoF, altho' that doesn't PROVE
anything.

Madhuri wrote:
> And I doubt whether Parvati is a Shaivite although she has
> a shaivite name, as her sister Padma has a Vaishnavite name.
> Although in my Vaishnavite family, my brother's middle name
> is a Shaivite one...

Thank you for being a first-hand source of information! Some people on
list have suggested that the surname Patil is more likely among Muslims
than among Hindus, which suggests that JKR just used some names of
people whom she had met rather than really studying South Asian names.







--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Apr 29 19:00:37 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:00:37 -0000
Subject: Abanes Answers Witch
In-Reply-To: <9c44lb+gt0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9chocl+j9fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17870

I have not read your book, but here are my responses to the questions 
you raised.

"Interestingly, if Harry would have had some integrity, and not 
cheated like everyone else, he probably would have lost and Cedric 
would still be alive."

You don't know that Cedric would still be alive if Harry lost.  He 
still could have won, touched the Triwizard Cup/portkey and gone to 
the graveyard and still have been murdered by Wormtail, which is a 
more frightening scenario than what actually happened. No one would 
know that Voldemort was back in power.   Harry as an underage 
contestant didn't have much of a chance in the TWT, I agree, but he 
was a pawn of Crouch, a follower of the decidedly evil Lord 
Voldemort.  And Harry *does* have integrity.  He didn't have to tell 
Cedric about the dragons in the first task, but he does, thinking it 
wouldn't be fair that Cedric was the only champion not knowing.  The 
rampant cheating is not right, I agree, but is it right to put 17/18 
(and one 14) year olds in the path of nesting female dragons?  

> 2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under 
> per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws 
> against illegal pets.

What restrictions?  Not using magic as an expelled Hogwarts student?  
Harry is not responsible for Hagrid's use of his pink brolly, in 
which it is commonly believed that he keeps hidden the broken pieces 
of his wand, to use Engorging charms on pumpkins or to put a pig's 
tail on Dudley.  Hagrid, too, was a pawn of evil and unjustly 
expelled from school.  By rights he should be a proper wizard.  And 
in the case of illegally obtained dragons, again, Hagrid was duped by 
Voldemort to divulge information in return for his dragon egg.  In my 
eyes, Hagrid is a very naive soul of whom it is easy to tak 
advantage. 

> 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
> about everyone whnever it is convenient. 

Are you familiar with Harry's pre-Hogwarts background?  He was for 10 
years *locked in a cupboard under the stairs* and mistreated by his 
uncle, aunt, and cousin.  He had no toys, no clothes that fit, never 
given enough to eat,  was beaten up regularly by his cousin Dudley, 
never encouraged to trust or ask questions about anything. He is not 
a very trusting person, especially when it comes to authority 
figures.  He does things on his own as a result of this upbringing.  
In GoF he has demonstrated more trust of adults, thanks to the 
kindness of the Weasleys and the trust of Dumbledore. 

> 5. Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
> guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
> His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
> wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
> arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
> be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
> sell it). 

Arthur Weasley is an excellent role model. <no sarcasm at all>  He 
loves his children and his wife and does his best at his job with the 
MoM.  Weak-willed hypocrite?  From where do you get this?  He loves 
to muck about with Muggle artifacts out of sheer fascination of the 
Muggle world.  And as he told Molly in Chapter 3 of CoS "There's a 
loophole in the law, you'll find...As long as he wasn't *intending* 
to fly the car, the fact that the car *could* fly wouldn't--" Whether 
or not he was intending ever to fly the Ford Anglia is moot, since 
three of his sons borrowed it to go resuce Harry.  And he does not 
have "two boys"--he has 6 boys, none of whom run roughshod over him.  
They love him, think he's a bit off in his Muggle fascination, but 
they do very much respect him.  And he is very dedicated to the 
safety of the Muggles, as can be seen in Chapter 9 of GoF.


Trina





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Apr 29 19:25:27 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:25:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
In-Reply-To: <20010429130726.19763.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <011101c0d09a$202f84e0$af8a78d5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429122100.00db6a10@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17871

At 06:07 AM 4/29/01 -0700, A B wrote:
>But this is Fred and George's take. Perhaps
>he felt the dark mark burn as well, and that's why he
>disappeared...

What I don't get is that if the MoM ever had any doubts about
who was really on V's side and who wasn't, why didn't they
just look at their arm?

Or was the Dark Mark unknown to the MoM until Snape
showed his to Fudge?  Sounds like a scene from
_Yes, Minister_...

Sir Humprey: (Finding another excuse for a blunder)
It happened before certain important facts were known.

Jim: What important facts?

Sir H.: Well, that You-Know-Who wanted to
conquer the Wizarding World.

Jim: I thought everyone knew *that*.

Sir H.: Not the Ministry of Magic.



                                                 -- Dave




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 19:45:32 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Meanness, Evil, and Bowling (was [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks, Wanda; something odd)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F44n20lbhsKd6Q00008132@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010429194532.40575.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17872

> Amanda wrote:
> But Voldemort is >clearly more evil. 
> So does being mean have a lot to do with evil at >all? Or is the
> quality of being mean rather like the quality of being ambitious--
> not evil in and of itself, but more likely than other >traits to 
> lead you in that direction? Or does evil have to do with a 
> perception of real harm? 


Jodi Kantor had an article in Slate.com on-line mag on July 12, 2000,
that dealt in part with Voldemort's brand of evilness.  Until GoF,
she'd thought that V. was almost a little too "vaudevillian" in his
evilness to be taken seriously.  But then:

*******************************************
I agree that over the years Lord Voldemort has developed into a kind
of vaudevillian Beezlebub, snakes and all. But there's a hint at the
end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire that Tom Riddle
(Voldemort's boyhood name) is modeled not on Satan or even his
latter-day equivalent, Darth Vader, but on a more troubling figure.
Riddle is shaping up to be a version of King Lear's Edmund, a nasty
piece of work who ranks with Iago and Macbeth as one of the great
hero-villains of Shakespearean drama. Edmund, you may recall, is
Gloucester's bitter illegitimate son. He betrays his brother and
destroys his father, among other dastardly deeds, because, he says,
the world has seized on his bastardy to deny him his due. No matter
how eloquent Edmund's speeches may be, Shakespeare's audience would
not have perceived Edmund's horribleness as a legitimate protest
against his fate--against the arbitrariness of having your social
status determined by your parents' marital relations, or lack
thereof. Rather, the Elizabethans would have seen Edmund as a man at
war with the universe since birth. Voldemort, the product of a
similar background, has a similarly willful urge to punish the world
for his misfortune:

"You see that house upon the hillside...? My father lived there. My
mother, a witch who lived here in this village, fell in love with
him. But he abandoned her when she told him what she was ... He
didn't like magic, my father ...

"He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was even
born ... and she died giving birth to me, leaving me to be raised in
a Muggle orphanage ... but I vowed to find him ... I revenged myself
upon him, that fool who gave me his name ... Tom Riddle ..." (GoF)

Comparing Voldemort to Edmund also offers us a different way to view
what you object to as the dark wizard's "fire-breathing kitsch."
Consider what Edmund does when the object of his designs, his
brother, first walks on stage: He transforms himself into a stock
melodramatic figure, all but rubbing his hands and twirling his evil
mustache:

"And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy: my cue is
villainous melancholy, with a sigh like Tom o'Bedlam." (King Lear)

In other words, Edmund may overplay his evilness, but that doesn't
mean he isn't actually evil. He's both image and substance, hype and
reality. He's a bad fake and a bad human being. He's bad through and
through. Likewise, Voldemort goes over the top, but he's still
malevolent. There isn't a sympathetic bone in his body. He's the dark
force, pure and simple, his heart hardened against goodness because
that's the way he is: nihilism in all its foul glory.

****************************************************

I thought it an interesting article.  Ms Kantor has been following
the series in her regular Book Club space for two years.


__________________________________________________
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From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Apr 29 19:54:20 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:54:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Abanes Answers Witch
References: <9chocl+j9fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001801c0d0e6$301aeba0$04e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17873


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Trina 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 3:00 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Abanes Answers Witch



  > 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
  > about everyone whnever it is convenient. 

  Are you familiar with Harry's pre-Hogwarts background?  He was for 10 
  years *locked in a cupboard under the stairs* and mistreated by his 
  uncle, aunt, and cousin.  He had no toys, no clothes that fit, never 
  given enough to eat,  was beaten up regularly by his cousin Dudley, 
  never encouraged to trust or ask questions about anything. He is not 
  a very trusting person, especially when it comes to authority 
  figures.  He does things on his own as a result of this upbringing.  
  In GoF he has demonstrated more trust of adults, thanks to the 
  kindness of the Weasleys and the trust of Dumbledore. 


  This is an interesting point.  I have to confess to being sometimes uncomfortable with Harry's rule breaking and occassional lying, but being a teacher of middle school aged boys, I know this behavior is normal.  But Trina's above comment also made me realize something else.  I seriously doubt Harry has had any teaching, from the Dursleys, related to morals or ethics.  If Harry broke a rule, or lied while with the Dursleys, I'm pretty sure that they punished him out of anger and made no effort to use such occassions to teach him right from wrong.  Actually, now that I think of it, i'm surprised Harry does have what moral sense he exhibits.  I wonder if we'll see him mature in his sense of justice and ethical behavior as he spends more time with people who care enough to model good values.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Apr 29 19:58:37 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:58:37 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Abanes Answers Witch (please change this heading)
References: <9chocl+j9fa@eGroups.com> <001801c0d0e6$301aeba0$04e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <006601c0d0e6$c815c7e0$263670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17874

Responding to Trina, Ender said:

<< This is an interesting point.  I have to confess to being sometimes
uncomfortable with Harry's rule breaking and occassional lying, but being a
teacher of middle school aged boys, I know this behavior is normal.  But
Trina's above comment also made me realize something else.  I seriously
doubt Harry has had any teaching, from the Dursleys, related to morals or
ethics. >>

This is obviously a valid and potentially interesting thread on Harry's
moral behaviour, but could I ask that anyone responding to it further
changes the heading from "Re: Abanes Answers Witch"?   Some people will skip
anything with that heading and others may think that the original debate is
still ongoing.  We recently closed (on list) the original discussion of
Richard Abanes' book from which these comments, and that heading, arose.

Thank you...

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm








From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 20:21:34 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:21:34 -0000
Subject: Bagman:  Red Herring or Not?
In-Reply-To: <20010429185108.5311.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cht4e+5ig5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17876

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Michelle Apostolides wrote: 
> > As for Ludo Bagman. Well I know that Dumbledore
> > states ant the end of
> > The Pensieve chapter that LB is NOT a DE but I
> > wonder... Winky is
> > obviously a very loyal elf and I don't think she
> > would have been so
> > vehement about LB at the end of " The House Elf
> > Liberation Front "
> > without good reason.
> > I think Ludo is one to watch.
> 

I think we have to take what Winky says with a grain of salt. She is 
anti-Bagman because of her respect for Crouch Sr, which makes her 
judgements not entirely reliable. Crouch Sr. hates Bagman not only 
because of his seemingly inadvertent passing on of secrets, but 
because he's not efficient, lazy, etc. 

To me, Bagman seems too comic and ineffective to be really plausible 
as a DE. He reminds me more of Lockhart and Rita Skeeter than a real 
agent of evil. Just an agent of annoyance, but potentially dangerous 
annoyance. 

> I agree to a certain extent.  I think Ludo *was*
> really a DE, not just an innocent dupe.  It only
> occurred to me in my last reading of GOF, but remember
> that Ludo also ran off after the TWT, not just
> Karkaroff.  Fred and George say it was because of the
> goblins, but what if *Ludo* was who Voldie was
> referring to as the coward?
> 

That's a good point. Maybe JKR really is planning for Bagman to 
really be one of the DEs, although I can't think of anything that 
really points to any holes in his story conclusively. 

Charmian





From leannsmarie at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 29 20:50:24 2001
From: leannsmarie at yahoo.com (Leann)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:50:24 -0000
Subject: Italian Translations and a little question
In-Reply-To: <9cgban+8su7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9chuqg+10q4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17877



"<snip> Dave asked; Madam Pomfrey=Madama Chips

She's not named after french fries, is she?

<snip>"

My thought on this was that the Italian translator was familiar with 
French as well and had gotten the name 'Pomfrey' confused with Pomme 
Frites which are fried potatoes I believe and so translated it 
as 'Chips'

potatoes = pomme du terre  (apples of the earth)
frites   = fries

If I'm wrong that's ok.  It's just what I remember from french class 
in High School ages ago.






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Apr 29 22:09:14 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:09:14 -0700
Subject: Bagman
Message-ID: <3AEC9109.7157AFE2@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17878

Dave Hardenbrook:
> How much do you think Ludo Bagman parallels OJ
> Simpson?  Is Ludo a man who got a free ride at his trial
> because he was a sports hero, and perhaps really belongs
> in prison?

You could ask the question about Ludo Bagman without bringing OJ Simpson
into it. Dear God, am I ever tempted to go on at length about the OJ
trials!

Ouroboros wrote:
> To me, Bagman seems too comic and ineffective to be
> really plausible  as a DE. He reminds me more of Lockhart
> and Rita Skeeter than a real agent of evil. Just an agent of
> annoyance, but potentially dangerous annoyance.

Lockhart and Skeeter seem funny, appear ineffective, but I suspect that
they are effective enough at doing evil.

Lockhart had no objection at all to having Ginny's blood on her hands,
and I believe he would have killed Ron and Harry if that was the most
effective way to keep them from interfering with his grab for glory.

Rita Skeeter has probably driven some people to suicide ... I can't
remember the name of the Admiral who rose from Sailor, and was going to
be promoted to Chief of Staff or something when some newsmagazine pubbed
an 'exposE' that he was wearing a V on one of his medals that he didn't
deserve. This was loudly debated in Congress. It was demonstrated that
that V had been awarded to him and everyone else who had survived that
battle, but he committed suicide because he couldn't bear the public
disgrace anyway.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 30 00:09:48 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:09:48 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
In-Reply-To: <a8.149f4653.281d7e4d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429165100.03ba7870@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17879

At 10:25 AM 4/29/01 -0400, wings909 at aol.com wrote:
>That's funny this is mentioned.  I have the skelton of a fic already with
>Ginny as Emma, Harry as Mr. Knightley,  Ron and Hermione would be a stronger
>Mr. Martin and Harriett, Draco is of course- Frank Churchill, and I had
>either Lavender or Parvati as Poor Jane.

I see Harry as Mr. Knightley all right, but I see Hermione as Emma
(Oh dear, I'm making an argument for H/H shippers, aren't I?) :)



                                                 -- Dave




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Apr 30 00:13:31 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:13:31 -0000
Subject: Bagman = O.J.?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429124503.00dbfcb0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cianb+3ck6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17880

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> This brings up a question that I was a bit unsure whether to mention
> before, but because of this post plus the question of whether 
Bagman is
> *really* a red herring, I will venture: How much do you think
> Ludo Bagman parallels OJ Simpson?  Is Ludo a man who got
> a free ride at his trial because he was a sports hero, and perhaps
> really belongs in prison?
> 
> (If Neil thinks this is too politically charged, he has my 
permission
>   to delete it.)
> 

So, are you saying that there was "evidence" that linked Bagman to 
his alleged crime against 'Our Side' during the Voldemort years, 
however, there was enough evidence to reasonably doubt 
that "evidence" (contaminated evidence, over-scrupulous Ministry 
wizards, Ministry wizards who have shown certain prejudices in past 
cases, etc.)? <g>

Interesting view though. Maybe Bagman is good at playing the fool or 
maybe he doesn't have to play one.

Milz




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 00:25:13 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:25:13 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
Message-ID: <14.1358b468.281e0ae9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17881

In a message dated 4/29/01 8:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes:

<<I see Harry as Mr. Knightley all right, but I see Hermione as Emma>>


Not in my fic....dear me, my crown as "Queen of H/G" would be taken away...

shudders at the very thought...

Actually, Hermione is more of the Mrs. Weston type with Ron as Mr. Weston, 
which would be how Ginny "Emma" got them together...my story is "loosely" 
based on Emma so not all things are as they would be in Miss Austen's 
rendition, although one wonders if she would approve of JKR at all.  But this 
will all have to wait until after my finals get turned in on Wednesday, and I 
finish my other three stories that I currently have.

Wishing teachers would realize that fanfic is more important than any stupid 
term paper..

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor


"At that moment, there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed 
figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small 
squeal, and ran out again." The Chamber of Secrets 
    




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Apr 30 00:37:04 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:37:04 -0000
Subject: Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429122100.00db6a10@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cic3g+5r8r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17882

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> What I don't get is that if the MoM ever had any doubts about
> who was really on V's side and who wasn't, why didn't they
> just look at their arm?
> 
> Or was the Dark Mark unknown to the MoM until Snape
> showed his to Fudge? 

	The Dark Mark would not be conclusive proof. Voldemort may have 
had many servants and sympathizers who did not bear it. It certainly 
sounds as if there were more than thirty Death Eaters in the mob at the 
World Cup. Also, Voldemort might have been able to put a false mark on 
the arms of innocent people he wished to incriminate. 
Pippin





From hpconference at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 00:38:12 2001
From: hpconference at yahoo.com (hpconference at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:38:12 -0000
Subject: HP Conference Possible
Message-ID: <9cic5k+7813@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17883

Having read the well researched (and intellectually stimulating) 
posts that appear on HPFGU on a daily basis, I've begun to suspect 
that a great number of us are academics or graduate students.  This 
has piqued my interest about scholarly material on HP (or the 
potential thereof), and so I've also done a few quick searches and 
found a handful of scholarly articles that have been written on the 
Harry Potter series.

This makes me think that we really need to take the traditional next 
step in scholarship:  WE GOTTA HAVE A CONFERENCE.  And, since I'm 
completely mad, I'm willing to make an attempt at organizing one at 
the small college where my husband and I teach.  (http://www.lmc.edu )

However, I will issue a caveat about my idea:  This would be a 
serious (no pun intended) interdisciplinary scholarly conference, and 
in no way a fan convention.  While interested people outside academe 
would certainly be welcome, this conference would take the form of a 
traditional academic conference ? papers, panels, plenary sessions, 
etc.

Of course, I would have to convince my Dean first, and in order to do 
so I need to be able to show proof that there are plenty of academics 
out there with enough scholarly interest in HP to make a conference 
possible.  Hence, our most gracious moderators  have granted me 
permission to conduct a little poll to get the statistics I need to 
persuade my Dean (if I could just get that Imperious Curse to work
) 
that there is a market for an HP conference.

If you are so inclined, please reply to the following questions at 
the address: HPconference at yahoo.com.  DO NOT reply to the list (else, 
Neil might curse me).  What I need to know is:

1. What is your academic profession and area of focus?
2. Would you be interested in attending an interdisciplinary academic 
conference on the Harry Potter series?
3. Where are you (you may be vague and provide only the region, e.g. 
U.S. Pacific North-West)?
4. Do you already have an HP topic for a paper, etc. in mind?  
Remember, this would be an interdisciplinary conference, so it could 
be anything from Lit Crit to pop culture studies to mythology to 
Classics to History to the publishing business end of things.
5. Any other comments are welcome.

Please feel free to forward this post to any of your colleagues whom 
you think may be interested and who may not be on the list.  Again, 
DO NOT reply to the list, but instead reply to HPconference at yahoo.com 

Thanks everybody,
Stephanie





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Apr 30 00:44:41 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:44:41 -0000
Subject: Onomatopoeia, Accents, Best Sellers Announcement
In-Reply-To: <9chein+tmmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cichp+tmn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17884

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote
> > I also have the sense that Moody is a Scot too from his use of 
> > stereotypic words "Oh no you don't laddie". But you are right. 
> > Rowling doesn't use much onomatopoeia (I think that is the right 
> > term) in her characters' dictions as other authors like Brian 
> > Jacques. But it makes reading her books easier than Jacques. 
> > 
> > :-)Milz
> 
> Onomatopoeia is the use of a word that sounds like the thing that 
the 
> word is supposed to be or to do, e.g., the "boom" of a cannon, the 
> "whisper" of a muffled voice, the "sussuration" of the wind over 
the 
> grass, the "whine" of a pouting child's voice, the "buzz" of an 
> insect flying near your ear, the "rattle" of a rattle snake--or a 
> rattle itself, for that matter.  Is this what you meant to say?  I 
> don't know of any example with relation to Scots, other that the
> Scots burr; but it is the word "burr" that is onomatopoetic, not 
> the "r-r-r" trill as printed on a page.  Just because JKR doesn't 
> trill her "r's" in print does not mean that her Scots don't speak
> with a Scottish accent.  I would include Moody among the Scots as 
> well.
> 
> Haggridd

Like I wrote, I'm not too sure of the proper terminology for it. But 
take this passage out of "The Great Redwall Feast" by Brian Jacques. .
Jacques has said in many interviews that his mole characters speak 
with a 'country village' accent.

"Waow! Moi liddle Bungo, he'm only a h'infant, gone an' falled into 
yon big tater pie!"
<snip>
"Yurr Muther, 'tis Bongo. Oi falled in a plum pie. 'Twere so 
delishuss oi diddent dare scream!"

Jacques has several Scottish accented characters too such as Meegraw 
the eagle and Bucko Bigbones the hare king of the Northern Highlands, 
but I don't have the books with me to pull an example of their 
diction. Rowling doesn't go to those extremes to depict her 
characters accents. It's a good thing she doesn't because I have to 
re-read some of Jacques' passages to figure out what the characters 
are saying. lol.

Anyhow, here a link to bookweb's children's books bestsellers list.

http://www.bookweb.org/booksense/bestsellers/4545.html

Milz




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 15:52:30 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:52:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
Message-ID: <LAW2-F95L947FR7mOuf00000e18@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17885

Catherine wrote:
>
>Clarification:  I don't think that the Scottish accent is
>funny/comical.  In fact, I really like it - it is very expressive and
>can sound quite soft and musical.  But, when most actors attempt it,
>it becomes overblown and OTT - or they slip in and out of it too
>much.  I am not saying that Stephen Fry would do the same thing, but
>it is possible.
>
>The other reason why I prefer Prof McGonagall accentless is that no
>where in canon does she sound as though she does have a Scottish
>accent.  I am probably going to be shot down now by everyone who
>lives in Scotland/is Scottish (and I am part - I have relatives in
>Glasgow) but most people I know from Scotland don't merely speak with
>a Scottish accent, but there are also certain words of dialect they
>will use - however slightly.  There is no indication of this at all
>in JKR's McGonagall.  After all - just because her name is Scottish
>doesn't mean she was brought up in Scotland, does it?

No, it doesn't, and there is nothing I know of that says she must be a Scot. 
  But I like to imagine her with a very posh Edinburgh accent - I think 
Maggie Smith's "Miss Jean Brodie" accent will do just fine (though, 
ironically, in the book, Miss Brodie had an English accent!).  She's a 
rather prim and proper character - perhaps she only uses Scots speech when 
relaxing, and never with students.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Apr 30 00:27:52 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:27:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I need a word translated!
References: <20010429183257.10776.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AECB188.10E29A62@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17886

Andrea wrote:
> 
> --- meckelburg at foni.net wrote:
> > can someone, who has both the English and the German
> > Version please help me! in the german PoA there are
> > creatures called Hinkepanks. Is the name the same in
> > English? It is the only book I don't have in both
> > languages.
> 
> The word in English in "Hinkypuck".  I have no idea
> where it comes from.  I'm not sure if it's one of the
> creatures JKR made up, or if it was based off a
> legend.  Anyone know?

It's a creature from folklore.  Here's the relevant entry from
Katharine Briggs' AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FAIRIES:


	Hinky-Punk.  One of the many names for
	WILL O' THE WISP.  It occurs on the
	Somerset-Devon borders.  In appearance
	it seems to be something like the
	Highland DIREACH, for it was described
	to Ruth Tongue by members of the
	Dulverton Women's Institute as having
	'one leg and a light, and led you into
	bogs'.

Grindylows are also in there.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 01:56:12 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
In-Reply-To: <9cic3g+5r8r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010430015612.32307.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17887

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook
> <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > What I don't get is that if the MoM ever had any
> doubts about
> > who was really on V's side and who wasn't, why
> didn't they
> > just look at their arm?
> > 
> > Or was the Dark Mark unknown to the MoM until
> Snape
> > showed his to Fudge? 

Didn't the Dark Mark fade when Voldemort was defeated?
(Thus the reason why the return of the Mark is proof
of V's return.)  Since these trials took place after
V's defeat, the Dark Mark wouldn't be available for
proof purposes.

Personally, I think that the "innocent dupe" act was
just the explanation Ludo cooked up once V was gone. 
Others said they were under the Imperius Curse, he
just had a more creative one. (And probably relied on
his fame to make people view him more positively.)


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 02:04:15 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 02:04:15 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter on the Simpsons, sort of
Message-ID: <9cih6v+ah7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17888

Tonight's episode of the Simpsons had a funny mention of Harry 
Potter.  Ned Flanders, the ridiculously fanatical religious nut next 
door, is reading to his kids:  "...and Harry Potter and all his 
wizard friends went straight to hell for practicing witchcraft."  
Then he closes the book and the two little boys yell, "Yay!!!"

Well, I thought it was funny.

--Joywitch




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 02:04:17 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 02:04:17 -0000
Subject: Onomatopoeia, Accents, Best Sellers Announcement
In-Reply-To: <9cichp+tmn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cih71+a9jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17889

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote
> > > I also have the sense that Moody is a Scot too from his use of 
> > > stereotypic words "Oh no you don't laddie". But you are right. 
> > > Rowling doesn't use much onomatopoeia (I think that is the right 
> > > term) in her characters' dictions as other authors like Brian 
> > > Jacques. But it makes reading her books easier than Jacques. 
> > > 
> > > :-)Milz
> > 
> > Onomatopoeia is the use of a word that sounds like the thing that 
> the 
> > word is supposed to be or to do, e.g., the "boom" of a cannon, the 
> > "whisper" of a muffled voice, the "sussuration" of the wind over 
> the 
> > grass, the "whine" of a pouting child's voice, the "buzz" of an 
> > insect flying near your ear, the "rattle" of a rattle snake--or a 
> > rattle itself, for that matter.  Is this what you meant to say?  I 
> > don't know of any example with relation to Scots, other that the
> > Scots burr; but it is the word "burr" that is onomatopoetic, not 
> > the "r-r-r" trill as printed on a page.  Just because JKR doesn't 
> > trill her "r's" in print does not mean that her Scots don't speak
> > with a Scottish accent.  I would include Moody among the Scots as 
> > well.
> > 
> > Haggridd
> 
> Like I wrote, I'm not too sure of the proper terminology for it. But 
> take this passage out of "The Great Redwall Feast" by Brian Jacques. 
.
> Jacques has said in many interviews that his mole characters speak 
> with a 'country village' accent.
> 
> "Waow! Moi liddle Bungo, he'm only a h'infant, gone an' falled into 
> yon big tater pie!"
> <snip>
> "Yurr Muther, 'tis Bongo. Oi falled in a plum pie. 'Twere so 
> delishuss oi diddent dare scream!"
> 
> Jacques has several Scottish accented characters too such as Meegraw 
> the eagle and Bucko Bigbones the hare king of the Northern 
Highlands, 
> but I don't have the books with me to pull an example of their 
> diction. Rowling doesn't go to those extremes to depict her 
> characters accents. It's a good thing she doesn't because I have to 
> re-read some of Jacques' passages to figure out what the characters 
> are saying. lol.
> 
> Anyhow, here a link to bookweb's children's books bestsellers list.
> 
> http://www.bookweb.org/booksense/bestsellers/4545.html
> 
> Milz

There may be a technical term for it, but I would just call it writing 
in dialect.  I agree with you, I am glad that JKR didn't induge in it. 
It doesn't mean, however that the characters didn't speak with an 
accent, just one that wasn't so strong that JKR felt that she had 
literally had to "spell it out" fpr us.

Haggridd




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 02:12:09 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 02:12:09 -0000
Subject: Bagman
In-Reply-To: <3AEC9109.7157AFE2@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9cihlp+phca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17890

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:

> You could ask the question about Ludo Bagman without bringing OJ 
Simpson
> into it. Dear God, am I ever tempted to go on at length about the OJ
> trials!

Congratulations on resisting temptation. :]


> 
> Lockhart and Skeeter seem funny, appear ineffective, but I suspect 
that
> they are effective enough at doing evil.
> 

That's true. His memory charms probably did ruin the lives of the 
people he hexed. 

When I talked about DEs, I meant that Rowling seems to often say 
(this is one of my hobbyhorses) that every person who is evil or 
morally deficient in some way is not necessarily a Death Eater or in 
league with Lord V, or even manipulated by him. People can be nasty 
or evil on their own, without guidance from Voldy, and I think 
Bagman's trangressions (which seem to be a)not thinking things 
through b)being dishonest in his dealings with Fred and George and c) 
not taking his gov't duties seriously enough) are possibly not worse 
than Skeeter's or Lockhart's....who I think at least had nothing to 
do with Voldemort. 

I wonder if Skeeter will show up in later books? Lockhart, unless 
Harry pays a visit to St. Mungo's, probably won't.  

Charmian




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Apr 30 02:04:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:04:40 -0700
Subject: Bagman - Fanfic - Dark Mark - Women's Insitute (was Hinkypunks) - 
Message-ID: <3AECC837.71BE7783@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17891

Milz wrote:
> So, are you saying that there was "evidence" that linked
> Bagman to  his alleged crime against 'Our Side' during the
> Voldemort years,

Bagman CONFESSED that he was picking up information and passing it to
Rookwood, but claimed that he thought that Rookwood was on Our Side.

> however, there was enough evidence to reasonably doubt  that
> "evidence" (contaminated evidence, over-scrupulous Ministry wizards,

like Barty Couch putting Sirius in Azkaban without a trial, and his son
with a visibly rigged unfair trial

Anyway, was OJ had on his side was MONEY, not his sports fame. In USA,
people who can spend millions of dollars on defense lawyers hardly ever
get convicted of anything, but people who rely on temporary public
defenders end up on Death Row until/unless a class of journalism majors
prove them innocent as a term paper project.

Paula from Gryffindor wrote:
> although one wonders if [Jane Austen] would approve of JKR at all.

Why wouldn't she? She had a sense of humor.

> Wishing teachers would realize that fanfic is more important
> than any stupid term paper..

LOL. So true.

Pippin wrote:
> The Dark Mark would not be conclusive proof.
> Voldemort may have had many servants and sympathizers
> who did not bear it. It certainly sounds as if there were more
> than thirty Death Eaters in the mob at the World Cup.

Presumably a number of people in the mob were Muggle-haters looking to
join the fun rather than Death Eaters or even VWI active sympathizers.

> Also, Voldemort might have been able to put a false mark
> on the arms of innocent people he wished to incriminate.

Lucius Malfoy as Marked -- that is how he was summoned to the Death
Eater circle in the graveyard -- and that didn't interfere with him
persuading MoM that he was an innocent who had been bewitched into
serving V. Presumably people who truly HAD been bewitched into serving V
would have been marked so V could summon them to meetings.

WHEN did the good guys learn about the bad guys being Marked? When Harry
asked Sirius what it meant that Karkaroff had shown Snape something on
his arm, Sirius looked mystified.

Margaret Dean quoted:
> it was described to Ruth Tongue by members of the
> Dulverton Women's Institute as having 'one leg and
> a light, and led you into bogs'.

Women's Institute. That's what JKR based her Salem Witches' Institute
on, not on a prison (California Institute for Women) or a think tank
(Princeton Institute for Advanced Studies). Btw, 'Tongue" is a very
Potterverse type of surname.









--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 03:12:10 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 03:12:10 -0000
Subject: On Meanness, Evil, and Bowling (was [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks, Wanda; something odd)
In-Reply-To: <20010429194532.40575.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cil6a+h1if@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17892

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Amanda wrote:
> > But Voldemort is >clearly more evil. 
> > So does being mean have a lot to do with evil at >all? Or is the
> > quality of being mean rather like the quality of being ambitious--
> > not evil in and of itself, but more likely than other >traits to 
> > lead you in that direction? Or does evil have to do with a 
> > perception of real harm? 
> 
> 
> Jodi Kantor had an article in Slate.com on-line mag on July 12, 
2000,
> that dealt in part with Voldemort's brand of evilness.  Until GoF,
> she'd thought that V. was almost a little too "vaudevillian" in his
> evilness to be taken seriously.  But then:
> 
> *******************************************
> I agree that over the years Lord Voldemort has developed into a kind
> of vaudevillian Beezlebub, snakes and all. But there's a hint at the
> end of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire that Tom Riddle
> (Voldemort's boyhood name) is modeled not on Satan or even his
> latter-day equivalent, Darth Vader, but on a more troubling figure.
> Riddle is shaping up to be a version of King Lear's Edmund, a nasty
> piece of work who ranks with Iago and Macbeth as one of the great
> hero-villains of Shakespearean drama. Edmund, you may recall, is
> Gloucester's bitter illegitimate son. He betrays his brother and
> destroys his father, among other dastardly deeds, because, he says,
> the world has seized on his bastardy to deny him his due. No matter
> how eloquent Edmund's speeches may be, Shakespeare's audience would
> not have perceived Edmund's horribleness as a legitimate protest
> against his fate--against the arbitrariness of having your social
> status determined by your parents' marital relations, or lack
> thereof. Rather, the Elizabethans would have seen Edmund as a man at
> war with the universe since birth. Voldemort, the product of a
> similar background, has a similarly willful urge to punish the world
> for his misfortune:
> 
> "You see that house upon the hillside...? My father lived there. My
> mother, a witch who lived here in this village, fell in love with
> him. But he abandoned her when she told him what she was ... He
> didn't like magic, my father ...
> 
> "He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was even
> born ... and she died giving birth to me, leaving me to be raised in
> a Muggle orphanage ... but I vowed to find him ... I revenged myself
> upon him, that fool who gave me his name ... Tom Riddle ..." (GoF)
> 
> Comparing Voldemort to Edmund also offers us a different way to view
> what you object to as the dark wizard's "fire-breathing kitsch."
> Consider what Edmund does when the object of his designs, his
> brother, first walks on stage: He transforms himself into a stock
> melodramatic figure, all but rubbing his hands and twirling his evil
> mustache:
> 
> "And pat he comes, like the catastrophe of the old comedy: my cue is
> villainous melancholy, with a sigh like Tom o'Bedlam." (King Lear)
> 
> In other words, Edmund may overplay his evilness, but that doesn't
> mean he isn't actually evil. He's both image and substance, hype and
> reality. He's a bad fake and a bad human being. He's bad through and
> through. Likewise, Voldemort goes over the top, but he's still
> malevolent. There isn't a sympathetic bone in his body. He's the 
dark
> force, pure and simple, his heart hardened against goodness because
> that's the way he is: nihilism in all its foul glory.
> 
> ****************************************************
> 
> I thought it an interesting article.  Ms Kantor has been following
> the series in her regular Book Club space for two years.
 
Very interesting.  I've read some Shakespeare, but I'm not enough of 
a scholar to have thought about Edmund.  This certainly sounds like a 
great parallel to Tom Riddle.  I've been thinking about the concept 
of "evil" and I always tend to equate it with massive, almost global-
scale evil like Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.  And that always makes me 
think about how these people viewed themselves.  Did they get up in 
the morning and say, "Oh thank Satan! Today I'm going to continue my 
evilness and kill ten thousand people just because I can, or because 
I don't like their religion/color/sexual orientation/gender/hair 
color/clothing/fill-in-the-blank?" 

 Or is evil truly evil not just because of the thoughts and actions 
of one person, but because they can make others follow their twisted 
path?  It seems to me that evil has become elevated to something that 
is no longer an individual trait, but something more far-reaching 
that sucks in like-minded people.  These people individually may be 
mean and nasty but you can ignore them with no harm done. However,  
give them a cause and a persuasive leader, and you've got real 
trouble on your hands. (Read Hannah Arendt's "The Banality of Evil" 
for an analysis of Nazism.)  It seems to me that Voldemort fits this 
picture.  He can be as nasty as he wants, but he needs followers to 
help him out.  He provides the focus for like-minded people to use as 
their guide and thus evil takes hold in wizard society.
 
Marianne, who'd rather have a root canal than keep thinking about 
evil...




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 03:26:18 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 03:26:18 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Understanding SHIPping
Message-ID: <F22t3Z4d5htAyD7TfSr000115f5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17893

Hey, list!  Long time no post!

Michelle wrote:
>
>OK, I have to admit, listening to the wonderful Stephen fry reading of
>GOF, I actually can see why people have the FITD theory and I DO see
>what the fuss about the kiss is ! ( Huh, say those of you who witnessed
>my objections to The Kiss debate last Christmas, she finally gets it ! )

Thanks so much for your post, Michelle!  See--we're not crazy after all!  
;-)

I should say that in a recent ship debate on the ff.net message boards, a 
R/Her could only cite two GoF textual supports for He----->R, while I see at 
least seven (and that's not without checking the books) of He---->Ha.

And as I am afraid to start another ship debate with our beloved Captain 
Penny on a well-earned maternity leave, this Special Agent and First Mate 
shall return quietly to the wheel of the SS H/H without stirring up the 
waters as usual.

The list is *so* much pleasanter without the shippers going at it, wouldn't 
you agree?  We've just all agreed to disagree with our dear friends who 
travel on strange vessels.

>I am still a no-shipper as such as I have no real preference as to who
>should be with whom. I just see that the question is there and JKR
>intends to deal with it.

Lately I've been seeing many points of the no-ship position.  You know, 
until recently, I didn't think that U-Boat NoShip actually existed.  But now 
I think I'd prefer no-ship inner tubes in plenty of future scenarios.

The friendship of the Trio is more valuable than anything else... and would 
hate to see any romantic pairing muck it up, even if Harry and Hermione are 
perfect for each other.  I'd rather they all end up with others outside or 
no one than for the friendship to disintegrate.  Which I think is the reason 
why H/H raises ire a lot of times... R/H (either one) wouldn't compromise 
the Trio, most readers think, but H/H *would*.

BTW Dave, *yes*, Hermione is Emma and Harry's Mr. K--was there even another 
choice?

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"The night whose sable breast relieves the stark,
White stars is no less lovely being dark,
And there are buds that cannot bloom at all
In light, but crumble, piteous, and fall;
So in the dark we hide the heart that bleeds,
And wait, and tend our agonizing seeds."

--Countee Cullen, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1927)

_________________________________________________________________
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From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 03:28:46 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 03:28:46 -0000
Subject: I need a word translated!
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c0d099$142de660$e12c07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9cim5e+134r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17894

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...> wrote:
> Yes, they are called Hinkepank in German and Hinkypunk in English.
> Don't know why they changed that name, after all they left the
> others mostly intact. Though "Schnatz" for "snitch" never fails to
> amuse me <g>.

It's a question of sound.  "Hinkypunk" if left in that spelling
might be rendered as "Hing-k?-poonk" in German.  "Hinkepank"
conveys the sound of the original much better.

....Craig





From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 03:38:55 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 03:38:55 -0000
Subject: Full Moon - Italian Translation, what people have posted about names
In-Reply-To: <3AEC6360.68251AE7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9cimof+mv3g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17895

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> R. Craig wrote:
> >  "Wendelin" is a man's name!
> > "Guendalina" is clearly female.
> 
> "She" allowed "herself" to be caught.

Yes, indeed.  I stand corrected.  Though you will find the historical
Wendelin to be a male monk.


> > Incidentally, I've never seen a name origin site comment
> > on the name McGonagall, so here it is from a defunct site
> > that I found off Google "Mc Gonigle is an Irish patronymic name,
> > (snip) So her name is literally "descendant of high valor".  I 
love
> JKR!
> 
> Someone told some list that McGonagall was the surname of some guy 
who
> is widely believed to have been the worst poet ever in the English
> language.

Yes, but I'm aware of William Topaz McGonagall, but I would expect JKR 
to have researched the roots of the name before using it.

....Craig




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 03:42:04 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:42:04 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Understanding SHIPping
Message-ID: <65.13946ea4.281e390c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17896

In a message dated 4/29/01 11:26:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:


> I should say that in a recent ship debate on the ff.net message boards, a 
> R/Her could only cite two GoF textual supports for He----->R, while I see 
> at 
> least seven (and that's not without checking the books) of He---->Ha.
> 
> 


LOL, I guess I should introduce myself.  You'd know me as Firebolt909 on 
ff.net : )  Might want to go and read my replies to your reply, Angie, if you 
haven't already.  I can't believe I actually forsworn myself and got involved 
in a Shipper debate, but who knew it'd be so much fun?...that and I'm still 
trying to avoid my term paper until the eleventh hour. : )

Anyway, I'm going to quietly wear my H/G Crown rather than fight for the 
R/H's, they have enough support without me getting in the battle.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

"At that moment, there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed 
figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small 
squeal, and ran out again." The Chamber of Secrets 
    




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 04:15:34 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:15:34 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Understanding SHIPping
Message-ID: <F10cBG83Fn04nDVwEdk00001863@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17897

Hey, Paula and list...

> > I should say that in a recent ship debate on the ff.net message boards, 
>a
> > R/Her could only cite two GoF textual supports for He----->R, while I 
>see
> > at
> > least seven (and that's not without checking the books) of He---->Ha.
> >
> >
>
>
>LOL, I guess I should introduce myself.  You'd know me as Firebolt909 on 
>ff.net : )  Might want to go and read my replies to your reply, Angie, if 
>you haven't already.  I can't believe I actually forsworn myself and got 
>involved in a Shipper debate, but who knew it'd be so much fun?...that and 
>I'm still trying to avoid my term paper until the eleventh hour. : )
>

I went and read the thread, Paula (Firebolt).  Cute post--I laughed at your 
refutations--thanks for responding!  As I said, those points were just off 
the top of my head and typed up in five minutes, but I can comb through 
canon and find plenty more.  ;-)  I can talk as much SHIP as the day is 
long... it's one of the few fandom topics I never tire of.

Truthfully, shipping *is* the HP equivalent of the Tower of Babel.  Some of 
us speak Hebrew and some of speak Greek.

And some of us speak Gobbledygook and Mermish.

And some of us are just... mute.

We can certainly talk more about this offlist if you want.  I was just 
responding to Michelle's post about understanding FITD because of listening 
to the Fry audioversions.  She was sort of updating us, I think, after the 
Great Shipping War we had onlist from mid-December to February.  (NEWBIES:  
if you want to read "HP4GU Ship Debates, A History", go to the message 
archives and search either H/H, R/H, or ship.  Believe me, it isn't too 
pretty... which is why we tiptoe around the issue now.)

But unless we can tie it to canon, Paula, shipping is OT and Neil will come 
after us, hairnet, bunny slippers and all.  I may be a fellow Gryffindor, 
but the Mod Squad scares me at time.  *Especially* that rock-wielding John.  
;-)  Don't want to cross them.

>Anyway, I'm going to quietly wear my H/G Crown rather than fight for the 
>R/H's, they have enough support without me getting in the battle.
>

Yes, there are a lot of R/Hers out there.  (sighs)  As my gran would say, 
"Lord love 'em."

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"The night whose sable breast relieves the stark,
White stars is no less lovely being dark,
And there are buds that cannot bloom at all
In light, but crumble, piteous, and fall;
So in the dark we hide the heart that bleeds,
And wait, and tend our agonizing seeds."

--Countee Cullen, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1927)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 06:01:42 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:01:42 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Simpsons, sort of
References: <9cih6v+ah7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0d13b$09dc92e0$d3e61b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17898

Too bad I missed that one. I was watching Voyager for a change. Anyone
tape Simpsons?

Rena

> Tonight's episode of the Simpsons had a funny mention of Harry
> Potter.  Ned Flanders, the ridiculously fanatical religious nut next
> door, is reading to his kids:  "...and Harry Potter and all his
> wizard friends went straight to hell for practicing witchcraft."
> Then he closes the book and the two little boys yell, "Yay!!!"
>
> Well, I thought it was funny.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and
celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win
> in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/sLselB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-_->
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
point your cyberbroomstick at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more
details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 07:03:39 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:03:39 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
Message-ID: <LAW2-F125C98Bi89Qtp00002fdd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17899

Paula wrote:
<snip>

>... although one wonders if she [Jane] would approve of JKR at all.

I'm quite sure she does, and has placed an order with the celestial delivery 
service for books 5, 6 & 7 ;)!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr 30 08:46:20 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:46:20 -0000
Subject: HP and Jane Austen
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429165100.03ba7870@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cj8os+huim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17900

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 10:25 AM 4/29/01 -0400, wings909 at a... wrote:
> >That's funny this is mentioned.  I have the skelton of a fic 
already with
> >Ginny as Emma, Harry as Mr. Knightley,  Ron and Hermione would be 
a stronger
> >Mr. Martin and Harriett, Draco is of course- Frank Churchill, and 
I had
> >either Lavender or Parvati as Poor Jane.
> 
> I see Harry as Mr. Knightley all right, but I see Hermione as Emma
> (Oh dear, I'm making an argument for H/H shippers, aren't I?) :)
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

I can't see Harry as Mr Knightley and Hermione as Emma.  Mr Knightley 
is the one who hovers in the background, offering moral guidance to 
Emma, gently pointing her in the right direction and leting her make 
mistakes and get to the right place by the end.  Emma is wilful and 
spoilt, and although her intentions are generally good, she makes a 
great deal of mistakes.  Therefore, if anything, I see them as the 
other way around.  (In fact, I'm more likely to see Dumbledore as 
Knightley and Harry as Emma, but I don't think that that would 
particularly work in fanfiction!)  How about Ginny as Emma and 
Hermione as Mr Knightley???

Catherine




From lilith at freebox.com  Mon Apr 30 09:43:16 2001
From: lilith at freebox.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:43:16 -0000
Subject: HP and Jane Austen
In-Reply-To: <9cj8os+huim@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cjc3k+9061@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17902

(In fact, I'm more likely to see Dumbledore as 
> Knightley and Harry as Emma, but I don't think that that would 
> particularly work in fanfiction!)  How about Ginny as Emma and 
> Hermione as Mr Knightley???
> 
> Catherine

Agree. But what about Remus Lupin as Mr Knightley and Harry as Emma, 
even though it's mostly a wish of Lupin becoming the younger mentor 
that Harry needs.
Ginny as Emma and Hermione as Knightley would be a perfect fanfiction 
thoug, I daresay!

Lilith 




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Mon Apr 30 10:01:31 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 06:01:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter on the Simpsons, sort of
References: <9cih6v+ah7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AED37FB.C6846508@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 17903

Hello all,

I saw that, and I laughed so hard I cried. I just found it so funny...not sure why...

Hugs
Jamieson

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> Tonight's episode of the Simpsons had a funny mention of Harry
> Potter.  Ned Flanders, the ridiculously fanatical religious nut next
> door, is reading to his kids:  "...and Harry Potter and all his
> wizard friends went straight to hell for practicing witchcraft."
> Then he closes the book and the two little boys yell, "Yay!!!"
>
> Well, I thought it was funny.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--

"Many that live deserve death.
And some that die deserve life.
Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death
in judgement." - Gandalf (The Fellowship
of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien)

--

Transported to a surreal landscape,
a young girl kills the first woman she
meets and thenteams up with three complete
strangers to kill again. - Marin County
newspaper's TV listing for
The Wizard of Oz





From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Apr 30 11:13:41 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:13:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Understanding SHIPping
References: <F22t3Z4d5htAyD7TfSr000115f5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010b01c0d166$bcfadb40$14b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 17904

> least seven (and that's not without checking the books) of He---->Ha.

This would be pronounced "Hee Haw".  Coincidence?  Discuss.  

<g, d & r>
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Apr 30 11:16:19 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 07:16:19 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks half/part Kneazle)
References: <9cj9t6+2lid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c0d166$fc218b20$b1e7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 17905


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bugg 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:05 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks half/part Kneazle)


  Crookshanks may have been registered by the shop owner 
  without Hermione's knowlege. She (Crookshanks) could be a 
  plant from Dumbledore for added protection. She may have 
  been trained by Mrs. Figg. [I known there is no proof that 
  Mrs. Figg trains kneazles] 

  I can't wait to read the look on Harry's face when he finds 
  out Mrs. Figg is a witch. 

  Bugg 



  I'd just like to point out...and i hope I don't step on any toes, but being an owner of many cats and dogs, I get nitpicky about such things...Crookshanks is a HE...and a big boy, too.
  Perhaps he was illegally bred?  Perhaps his parents were illegally put together to mate...or maybe one was a stray.
  Actually, I don't think Crookshanks was bred by Mrs. Figg or placed at Eeylops by anyone.  It would seem too much of a coincidence.  I think he was just one of the many animals in the shop who, having been there a long while and no longer being a cute kitten, was just not attracting any attention...until the day he sensed a hidden animagi in poor Ron's pocket.

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ajpresto at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 11:50:12 2001
From: ajpresto at yahoo.com (Andrew Preston)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
Message-ID: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17906

HP PoA 1-2 

(Man, it's scary going "first.")

Chapter 1.

The first paragraph introduces us to the abnormalities of Harry. He wants to do
his homework, but cannot, he hates summer vacation, and of course, for those
who missed it the first two times around, HP is a wizard.

We see the humour coming from JK Rowling in her introduction of HP's paper
topic, _Witch Burning in the Fourteenth Century Was Completely Pointless._ We
could only imagine some of the things Harry might write about the topic
(Muggles were the only ones burnt, the test for witches were all wrong, etc).

Once again, we find Harry Potter at his uncle's house, and we are reintroduced
to the Muggles. We see that Harry has learned a little bit more than "good"
magic at school. He picks the lock to his old bedroom (the cupboard under the
stairs) to get to his schoolbooks (They have been taken away by his aunt and
uncle). I'm sure the twins taught him that.

In a first, Harry gets a phone call. This is momentous, since wizards don't use
telephones. We can see that in the dialog that occurs, with Ron shouting since
he figures the distance is very far.

Harry is allowed to let Hedwig out since she screams all the time if locked up
We "celebrate" Harry's birthday at night. He's now a teenager.

Harry gets his first presents and cards for his birthday. Three owls struggle
to bring it, and Errol (Ron's owl) to him. Harry gets news that Ron is in
Egypt, his family won the "lottery" and he'll be getting a new wand from the
proceeds. We also find out in a postscript that Percy is Head Boy. Ron gave
Harry a Pocket Sneakoscope. Hermione gave Harry a Broomstick Servicing Kit.

Harry reminisces about Quidditch, and it's reintroduced. Harry gets a living
book, _The Monster Book of Monsters._ Harry gets a permission slip from
Hogwarts for Hogsmeade visits. He knows that nobody will sign it, and he won't
be able to go (so he thinks... we learn different later)

JK says that Harry is finally glad that it was his birthday, like a normal kid.

Chapter 2.

Aunt Marge is coming to visit. We first hear about Sirius Black (on a Muggle TV
show, of all things) but we don't know much about him other than he's presumed
dangerous. We hear again about Aunt Petunia's enjoyment of spying on her
neighbors. 

Harry's previous birthday presents have included an old pair of his uncle's
socks. This year's present is far worse... Aunt Marge, who is told that Harry
had been sent away to a juvenile prison, hates him more than any of the family
he lives with.

Harry bargains with Uncle Vernon. He'll pretend to attend the juvenile school
if he signs his permission slip. Uncle Vernon says that he will sign the form,
if everything goes okay.

Aunt Marge brought Ripper with her, one of her may bulldogs. She throws her
suitcase at Harry, who's compared to a coat rack, and kisses Dudley, paying him
20 pounds for the service. She tells Aunt Petunia to write to the juvenile home
to have them beat Harry harder. Then Uncle Vernon changes the subject to
Sirius, which sets the tone for the rest of the novel.

Aunt Marge pushes a little too hard, saying that if there was something wrong
with the breeding, then there would be something wrong with the animal,
comparing Harry to a dog, and indirectly calling Lily a bitch. Harry shatters
Marge's glass as she's drinking from it. Harry runs to his room and worries
about the Ministry of Magic coming after him again for illegal magic use.

Later in the week, Marge talks about Harry as a runt, saying that he should
have been drowned as a child (implicitly, of course). Marge is getting drunk,
and asking about Harry's dad. Uncle Vernon said that he was unemployed,
throwing Marge into a tirade. Harry can't hold it anymore and yells that his
father was not lazy. Harry starts blowing Marge up, bigger and bigger. She
started to float to the ceiling like a huge balloon.

Harry can't take it any longer, grabs his stuff, and leaves to the street.


Questions:

1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let somebody get    
  under them and then blow them up?
2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?
3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do better in     
 Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)
4)	What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street? He can't    
  apparate
5)	Where did the owls meet up at? Do they have a central office?
6)	Can you hire more owls to deliver heavy packages? Why didn't Ron, with his  
    newfound wealth?
7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked somebody, 
     or was he just not thinking?

That should be enough.


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From ajpresto at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 11:50:18 2001
From: ajpresto at yahoo.com (Andrew Preston)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Muggle Places
Message-ID: <20010430115018.51854.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17907

Muggle Places:

Privet Drive, London Locations

There really isn't much to say about the Muggle areas. We don't see them all
too much in the books. Harry lives, of course, on Privet Drive. There is hardly
any mention of his neighbors. The Dursley's announce loudly that they got a new
car, but we don't meet any neighbors (wouldn't want them to be exposed to the
wizard). Harry wanders around outside for a little while, walking down the
street, sitting on a curb, before being picked up by the Knight bus. Nothing
exceptional there... just a regular street. (We see, or think we see, Sirius in
the shadows of an alley, but he's everywhere)

King's cross is a little bit better. We know that Harry gets on the train at
Platform 9 . There is a solid metal wall at the end of Platform 9 that Harry
has to run through to get the Hogwarts Express Platform. They have to be
careful to be inconspicuous to the Muggles. There isn't much else to say.

Questions:

1)	Do any other trains run on Platform 9 ? Wouldn't it be wasteful for a      
platform to run only twice a year, to school and back?
2)	Is it a magic train? Does the whole thing only appear for the few hours     
 it's used? Wouldn't there be fear of discovery if they left the whole         
           thing up all the time? Or is it wizard locked somehow? You guys
answer the       question, not me :]
3)	Who else lives on Privet Drive? Anybody important to our story?
4)	What have I missed? Anything important? What about the areas in Book 4      
      that the wizards go exploring to find Portkeys? How do they keep those   
   keys secret? What happens if somebody just picks up the litter to throw it  
          away? Do they get ported?

That's all. Sorry it isn't better.






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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 12:51:09 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 05:51:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Understanding SHIPping
In-Reply-To: <F22t3Z4d5htAyD7TfSr000115f5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010430125109.18180.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17908


--- Ebony Elizabeth Thomas <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Lately I've been seeing many points of the no-ship position.  You
> know, until recently, I didn't think that U-Boat NoShip actually
> existed. But now I think I'd prefer no-ship inner tubes in plenty of
> future scenarios.

If there is a U-Boat NoShip, I am most truly on it! <grin> At the risk
of ostrasizing myself, I'm noship in both canon and fanfic. <ducks as
list members start throwing books> Part of my reason is purely selfish;
romance is done so tritely nowadays that I can't stand to deal with
another cliche. Honestly, when Harry feels the first "flutterings" of
liking towards Cho in PoA, I very nearly threw the book across the
room. Here was this wonderful series and JKR was going to relent to
temptation and put young love in it! I don't care how realistic it is,
I don't want any part of it.

The other part of my noship reason is what Ebony said. I think it would
be detrimental to the trio's friendship. I've seen the effects of
so-called love. It does distance friends, to an extent. If Harry,
Hermione, or Ron were to pair up with someone/each other, it would
weaken their friendship bond. But I'm sure many will disagree with me. 

~Amber
 

=====
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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 13:00:52 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 06:00:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010430130052.240.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17909


--- Andrew Preston <ajpresto at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Questions:
> 
> 1) Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let
> somebody get under them and then blow them up?

Well, Harry is 13; he's just a kid. Of course he's going to not have
much self-disciplines. Especially when someone is insulting his dead
parents. And I wasn't under the impression that Harry was consciously
doing a spell. It seemed that it was more of a subconscious thing.

> 2) How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

I imagine the Ministry did a deflating charm and that got the
dispicable Aunt Marge off the ceiling.

> 3) What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do
> better in Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

I'd be very surprised if the Dursley's learnt anything. They're thin,
shallow characters without any imagination, IMHO. And Marge doesn't
remember, she had a memory charm placed on here. I really hope we don't
see her character ever again in the books. (If you couldn't tell, Aunt
Marge is one of my least-liked characters!)

Hmmm, question. Does anyone remember if the memory charm was place only
on Aunt Marge or was it placed on the Dursley's as well? If the
Dursley's were allowed to remember what happened, I'm extremely
surprised that Vernon showed up to get Harry at the end of PoA!

> 4) What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street? He
> can't apparate

He was too mad to think about anything except that he had to leave that
house. I'm sure it happens; I've personally never been so mad that I
couldn't think logically, but then I've never been really insulted
before.

~Amber


=====
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr 30 13:08:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:08:39 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cjo4n+7oe5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17910

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> Questions:
> 1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get    
>   under them and then blow them up?

The simple answer to this, is that yes, they should.  However, Harry 
is still a only a teenager - the time of life, when for most people, 
emotions are harder to control.   This clearly has an adverse effect 
on his self control regarding his magic.  It has also had the 
opposite effect - Harry is also able to achieve more in times of 
extreme stress/emotion.  For example, his summoning of the Patronus, 
which involved necessary strength of mind, was achieved under very 
emotional circumstances.  (I have noticed before that these are often 
related to family).  Another is the fact that he is able to force 
Voldemort's wand into Priori Incantatem, when the opposite seemed 
more likely.  Does Harry funnel his emotions generally into helping 
him with his magic when he needs it?

This also raised another question for me.  Do other witch/wizard 
children have the same problems of self control?  The only other 
example of involuntary use of magic that I can think of is Neville 
bouncing instead of falling.   Does Hogwarts (or should Hogwarts) 
teach control - and to develop this, should some kind of code of 
conduct/wizarding morals/ethics be taught on the school curriculum?

Control seems to me to be integral to certain classes - in particular 
Professor Flitwick's which seem to be based upon use of mind over 
matter - which is channelled through the wand.  Therefore to be an 
effective witch/wizard, there seems to be a need for serious 
concentration and strength of mind.  Perhaps years of studying mean 
that the involuntary actions are subdued, as the studying has the 
effect of strengthening and focussing the mind.

BTW: I think Harry's actions are just a more extreme example of your 
average teenager losing his temper and storming out of the room, 
slamming doors etc.  The extra dimension of magic is added, that's 
all.  He also was very restrained during the rest of the week - and 
the provocation was great - again, nothing seems to affect him as 
much as his family - in this case, the slandering of his parents.

> 2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

Absolutely no idea.  Scrape her off with a spatula?  Deflate her with 
a giant pin?

> 3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do 
better in     
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

Marge won't think anything because she has her memory modified.  
Unfortunate that they can't modify it to the extent that she believes 
that she actually likes Harry.  Will the Dursleys ever learn what?  
Admittedly, they have always been horrible to Harry - but on the 
other hand, Dudley's tail, the violet pudding and the blowing up of 
Aunt Marge aren't exactly going to endear him to them, are they?   I 
know that they are supposedly going to have a larger role in future 
books, but at the moment, I think that they are counting the years 
until Harry is  grown up and they will no longer have to have 
anything to do with them (and I am sure this is reciprocated by 
Harry).

Catherine





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Apr 30 13:13:05 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:13:05 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430130052.240.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cjod1+mlcp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17911

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> Hmmm, question. Does anyone remember if the memory charm was place 
only
> on Aunt Marge or was it placed on the Dursley's as well? If the
> Dursley's were allowed to remember what happened, I'm extremely
> surprised that Vernon showed up to get Harry at the end of PoA!

The memory charm was only placed on Aunt Marge.  When Cornelius Fudge 
intercepts Harry in the Leaky Cauldron, he tells Harry that his aunt 
and uncle are very angry, but would be willing to take him back next 
summer if he spent Christmas and Easter at school.

Is there some kind of wizarding rule which states that 
parents/guardians of muggle born witches and wizards should be aware 
of what is happening - and that they therefore shouldn't have memory 
charms placed on them?

Catherine




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 13:56:21 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 06:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <9cjod1+mlcp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010430135621.26455.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17912


--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The memory charm was only placed on Aunt Marge.  When Cornelius Fudge
> intercepts Harry in the Leaky Cauldron, he tells Harry that his aunt 
> and uncle are very angry, but would be willing to take him back next 
> summer if he spent Christmas and Easter at school.

<smacks forehead> Oh, well, duh! Stupid me. Forgot about that tidbit.
Thanks for reminding me Catherine!

> Is there some kind of wizarding rule which states that 
> parents/guardians of muggle born witches and wizards should be aware 
> of what is happening - and that they therefore shouldn't have memory 
> charms placed on them?

I imagine that the Ministry had tons of rules on memory charms. I mean,
really, a bit of magic that has the ability to *change a person's
memories* should have quite a bit of legislation dealing with it. As
for muggle parents of witches/wizards, well they'd have to have such a
rule. Maybe a sort of spell is cast on muggle parents when they find
out their child is a wizard/witch that *identifies* them as someone who
should know about the wizarding world? That way, Ministry officials
don't always have to be owling the office asking "Hey, is so-and-so a
parent of a wizard/witch? They are? Well, they can keep their memories
then!"

~Amber


=====
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr 30 14:03:43 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:03:43 -0000
Subject: Some Potion Unbenign (filk)
Message-ID: <9cjrbv+4dbs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17913

Some Potion Unbenign (PoA, Chapter 8)

(To the tune of Love Potion No. 9)

Dedicated to Pippin

(The Scene: REMUS LUPIN'S office.  HARRY has a new concern ? is SNAPE 
trying to poison LUPIN?) 

HARRY
I took my troubles to Remus Lupin
On Grindylows he's giving me the spin
But then in barged Snape lookin' totally malign
Carryin' a goblet of some potion unbenign 

I told Lupin about my Boggart fears
He's the best teacher we've had in three years
But he now seems ill and it must be Snape's design
To stamp out his rival with some potion unbenign 

He took the cup and picked it up, it's billowing smoke
I said "This has gotta be some kind of sick joke"
Lupin drank the whole thing down as if it were Coke
I held my breath, I closed my eyes, I'd thought he'd croak 

I didn't know if Lupin knew that Snape 
For the Dark Arts' job is bent out of shape
I had a crazy urge to knock aside the stein  
I don't want him poisoned by some potion unbenign

(Exit HARRY)

LUPIN (to Snape)
I wouldn't know exactly what'd I do  
Without this complex mixture that you brew
Its taste may be bad but lunar fears are left behind
Because this werewolf potion helps me preserve my mind

HARRY (from without, simultaneous with below)
Some potion unbenign
Some potion unbenign 
Some potion unbenign

LUPIN & SNAPE (simultaneous with below)
Helps me/you preserve my/your mind
Helps me/you preserve my/your mind 
Helps me/you preserve my/your mind

  - CMC












From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr 30 14:26:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:26:35 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <001201c0d166$fc218b20$b1e7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9cjsmr+gd7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17914


>   Actually, I don't think Crookshanks was bred by Mrs. Figg or 
placed at Eeylops by anyone.  

He wasn't in Eyelops, which is strictly an owl shop. He was in the 
Magical Menagerie. He'd been there "for ages" and Hermione bought him 
during the last week of August, 1993.


Steve "Get A Life" Vander Ark
who is becoming a real Crookshanks fan these days
but whose cat more resembles Mrs. Norris than a Kneazle

The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about Crookshanks
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 30 14:54:25 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:54:25 -0000
Subject: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <20010430115018.51854.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cjub1+b8n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17915

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> Muggle Places:
> 
> Privet Drive, London Locations

> 
> There really isn't much to say about the Muggle areas. We don't see 
them all
> too much in the books. Harry lives, of course, on Privet Drive. 
There is hardly
> any mention of his neighbors. The Dursley's announce loudly that 
they got a new
> car, but we don't meet any neighbors (wouldn't want them to be 
exposed to the
> wizard). Harry wanders around outside for a little while, walking 
down the
> street, sitting on a curb, before being picked up by the Knight 
bus. Nothing
> exceptional there... just a regular street. (We see, or think we 
see, Sirius in
> the shadows of an alley, but he's everywhere
)
> 
> King's cross is a little bit better. We know that Harry gets on the 
train at
> Platform 9 ?. There is a solid metal wall at the end of Platform 9 
that Harry
> has to run through to get the Hogwarts Express Platform. They have 
to be
> careful to be inconspicuous to the Muggles. There isn't much else 
to say.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1)	Do any other trains run on Platform 9 ?? Wouldn't it be 
wasteful for a      
> platform to run only twice a year, to school and back?

 Obviously the train runs to and from Hogsmeade 6 times a year as 
most students go home at easter and christmas as well. However I 
don't think the train runs to Hogsmeade at other times of the year. 
For example when Hagrid is going to the ministry in London about 
Buckbeak he has to take the Knightbus.
  
> 2)	Is it a magic train? Does the whole thing only appear for the 
few hours     
>  it's used? Wouldn't there be fear of discovery if they left the 
whole         
>            thing up all the time? Or is it wizard locked somehow? 
You guys
> answer the       question, not me
 :]

 If it is a magic train it doesn't seem to go much faster than a 
muggle one. It could be like magic other magic vehicles in that it 
could jump other trains using the same track and not be noticed 
though. It could possibly be left at platform 9 3/4 when not being 
used?

> 3)	Who else lives on Privet Drive? Anybody important to our 
story?

 I believe that Mrs Figg lives round the corner but not actually on 
Privet Drive, but apart from that, no-one I can think of who is 
important to the story.

> 4)	What have I missed? Anything important? What about the areas 
in Book 4      
>       that the wizards go exploring to find Portkeys? How do they 
keep those   
>    keys secret? What happens if somebody just picks up the litter 
to throw it  
>           away? Do they get ported?

 Aren't the portkeys set to only work at a specific time? Or at least 
all the normal ones in GoF seemed to. So unless the muggle was very 
unlucky they would be able to just through the litter away. 


 My two knuts

 Jen




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Apr 30 15:22:16 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:22:16 -0000
Subject: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <9cjub1+b8n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cjvv8+1r9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17916

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> > Muggle Places:
> > 
> > Privet Drive, London Locations

> > 
[snip]

We also see in PS/SS the streets of London which are filled with 
celebratory wizards partying down due to You Know Who having fallen.  

And in a flashback, Harry was in a store where one of the wizards 
stopped and bowed to him. 

> > 
> > Questions:
> > 
> > 1)	Do any other trains run on Platform 9 ?? Wouldn't it be 
> wasteful for a platform to run only twice a year, to school and 
back?

Maybe there are other trains that run in the wizarding world that can 
be picked up from 9 3/4.  If Harry travels abroad at some point, 
maybe we'll find out that he can catch a train to France to visit 
Fleur in Beauxbatons or somesuch.
   
> > 2)	Is it a magic train? Does the whole thing only appear for the 
> few hours it's used? Wouldn't there be fear of discovery if they 
left the whole thing up all the time? Or is it wizard locked somehow? 

My guess is:  Brigadoon Syndrome.  The train and station are either 
stored in WizardSpace somewhere, or is miniaturized into a toy train 
set that trundles around Dumbledore's office until needed.






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr 30 15:39:39 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:39:39 -0000
Subject: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <20010430115018.51854.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ck0vr+b6v9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17917

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> Muggle Places:
> 
> Privet Drive, London Locations

> 
> There really isn't much to say about the Muggle areas. We don't see 
them all
> too much in the books. 

Don't forget about the various locales in the village of Little 
Hangleton, in Chapter One of GoF (200 miles fron Little Whinging). 
Besides the Riddle House, there's the Hanged Man, the village pub, 
and the decrepit little cottage in which Frank Bryce resides. Bryce 
is interrogated in the police station in the adjacent town of Great 
Hangeleton. And we learn that the Riddles are buried in the Little 
Hangelton churchyard, which of course becomes a location of some 
significance later in the story.  


   - CMC




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 16:08:44 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:08:44 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <9cjsmr+gd7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ck2mc+63kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17918

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> >   Actually, I don't think Crookshanks was bred by Mrs. Figg or 
> placed at Eeylops by anyone.  
> 
> He wasn't in Eyelops, which is strictly an owl shop. He was in the 
> Magical Menagerie. He'd been there "for ages" and Hermione bought 
him 
> during the last week of August, 1993.
> 
> 
 Yeh, well I can out-nitpick Steve's post. (I am not the self-
appointed president of the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers for nothing, 
you know.)  The original poster's (don't know who, sorry) spelling of 
"Eeylops" is correct.  Steve's spelling, "Eyelops" is not.  It was 
probably just a typo on Steve's part, however, I have seen it 
mispelled the same way in other places, including on either the 
Scholastic or WB site.

--Joywitch




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Apr 30 16:08:24 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:08:24 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEAPCEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17919

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Preston [mailto:ajpresto at yahoo.com]

> Questions:
>
> 1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let
> somebody get
>   under them and then blow them up?

We know from various conversations between Harry and his
friends/fellow students that *untrained* wizards tend to do all
kinds of weird stuff. It's never really specified, we are only told
things like "I never knew that all the weird stuff I could do was
magic", but I bet everything wasn't benign. *Adult* wizards should
of course be able to control themselves, but I am pretty sure
that not fully trained wizards aren't able to do this in stressful
situations. And Harry always does things like that in stressful
situations: Apparating (?) to the school roof when he was
bullied or making grow his hair back after Aunt Petunia shaved
him.

> 2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

You know, I would have *loved* to be there when the ministry
wizards deflated her. <g> There are levitation charms, so there'll
be countercharms that bring the unfortunate victim back to the
ground.

> 3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do
> better in
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

Marge doesn't think anything because a memory charm is cast on her
as somebody else has already stated. She doesn't remember the incident
at all, and that's good for her. She is already nasty enough to Harry.
The Dursleys will never learn anything. You have only to listen to
Uncle Vernon's nazi paroles when he sees the picture of Sirius Black
at TV. To tell the truth, this was the first time I actually took him
seriously, until then I had always thought of the Dursleys as some
kind of caricatures. I didn't suspect at the time that Sirius could be
innocent, but hearing Vernon condemn him because of his *physical*
appearance was enough for me. I have heard things like that too
often during my childhood. And I don't think that the Dursleys do
any better in book 4, they only treat Harry a bit better because they
are terrified his murderous godfather might turn up and turn them
all into bats (btw I would love to see that).

> 4)	What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street?
> He can't
>   apparate

I think he is so upset that he doesn't give it a thought. He just wants
to get away from the Dursleys and particularly from Aunt Marge. I
don't think a 13 year old boy will think about the consequences of
running away. Maybe he would have returned after a few hours if
the Knight Bus hadn't picked him up.

> 7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked
> somebody,
>      or was he just not thinking?

Same as above. He should have asked Hermione, she knows how to
work a phone. But he was so eager to call Harry that he didn't think
of it.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr 30 16:10:57 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:10:57 -0000
Subject: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <9ck0vr+b6v9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ck2qh+972d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17920

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> > Muggle Places:
> > 
> > Privet Drive, London Locations


If you're interested in a nice list of all the Muggle places 
mentioned and/or visited, follow the link to Muggle World on the 
Lexicon. 

One place that's easily overlooked but which is such a fun scene is 
the fast food restaurant where Hagrid takes Harry out for a 
hamburger. Just imagine how out of place Hagrid would look among all 
the plastic tables and integrated seats in a MacDonalds...

As for the Hogwarts Express, it seems that it will run whenever 
necessary, or maybe Harry just assumes it will, since when he thinks 
he's about to be expelled, he imagines himself boarding the train the 
next day, which is certainly not one of the "official" travel days. I 
love the idea of the Hogwarts Express being a toy train set in 
Dumbledore's office when it's not needed. And the idea of it using 
Muggle tracks, just Knights-Bus-ing around or over other trains. You 
people are so clever :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has quite a bit of information about Muggles and how they live
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Apr 30 16:17:43 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:17:43 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <9ck2mc+63kf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ck377+9796@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17921


> > 
>  Yeh, well I can out-nitpick Steve's post. (I am not the self-
> appointed president of the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers for 
nothing, 
> you know.)  The original poster's (don't know who, sorry) spelling 
of 
> "Eeylops" is correct.  Steve's spelling, "Eyelops" is not.  It was 
> probably just a typo on Steve's part, however, I have seen it 
> mispelled the same way in other places, including on either the 
> Scholastic or WB site.

Yep, it was a typo. Sorry. I panicked, though, and quickly checked 
the Lexicon to make sure I hadn't typed it wrong there too. Looks 
like I was okay. *whew*

So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea? 
I'll have to check Whats In A Name and see if Ellie has it listed 
there. What a great word, though!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a nice Diagon Alley page, including EEYLOPS
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Apr 30 16:18:05 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:18:05 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <9cjod1+mlcp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ck37t+o7ka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17922

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:


> 
> Is there some kind of wizarding rule which states that 
> parents/guardians of muggle born witches and wizards should be 
aware 
> of what is happening - and that they therefore shouldn't have 
memory 
> charms placed on them?

That seems to be the case - in Cos (Chap. 5), Dumbledore tells Harry 
and Ron that he will be informing both of their families of the 
Flying Ford Anglia incident. Ron gets a Howler from his mother as a 
result, but as Harry reflects, "As for Dumbledore's writing to the 
Dursleys, that was nothing. Harry knew perfectly well they'd just be 
disappointed that the Whomping Willow hadn't squashed him flat."

   - CMC




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 16:22:45 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:22:45 -0000
Subject: Summary thoughts
Message-ID: <9ck3gl+365t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17923

Although the books don't say very much about Privet Drive, I have 
imagined it to be one of those incredibly dull, every-house-the-same, 
bland, insipid suburbs.  I am sure the Dursley's house has one of 
those carefully-manicured lawns with every blade of grass the same 
height, some very carefully trimmed bushes near the front door, and 
neat little rows of (what else) petunias on either side of the front 
walk.

7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked 
somebody, or was he just not thinking?

Who would he ask?  I can imagine his father's response:  "You're 
going to use the fellytone?  That runs on eckleticity, right?"  
Actually, he probably did ask his father; I wouldn't be surprised if 
it was Arthur who told him he should shout.

Of course, he could send an owl to Hermione, but I can't quite see a 
13-year old boy asking a girl he is friends with but has a crush on 
for advice on how to do something.


I LOVE this idea from Indigo:

2)	Is it a magic train? Does the whole thing only appear for the 
> few hours it's used? Wouldn't there be fear of discovery if they 
left the whole thing up all the time? Or is it wizard locked somehow? 
My guess is:  Brigadoon Syndrome.  The train and station are either 
stored in WizardSpace somewhere, or is miniaturized into a toy train 
set that trundles around Dumbledore's office until needed.

I can just see Dumbledore playing with the toy Hogwarts Express train 
when he is feeling stressed.

--Joywitch




From jheen at netzero.net  Mon Apr 30 16:50:54 2001
From: jheen at netzero.net (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:50:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
References: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002401c0d195$b8eac5e0$59e91a41@mmcable.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17924

Andrew, Nice summary :)

> 1) Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let somebody
get
>   under them and then blow them up?

Yes, I think they should be. Knowing when to use magic and when not to is
just about as important as knowing how to use it. If you can't figure that
out, they you are a meance to their society because you'll start throwing
hexes and charms at the Muggles. I think one of the ways to teach the
students this is by forbidding them to use magic while on vacation. So, for
two months out of a year they have to deal with stuff in a non-magical (or
as best as a wizardly family can do) way.

Now, on the more specific case of what happened with Harry. Well, he is a
teenager. They aren't known for their self-control really. However, I think
there is more to the situation that just that. I don't have book 2 with me
to verify, but I think this is the first time Harry had to deal with someone
majorly insulting his parents since he found the truth about how they died
and about his ability to do magic. (I'm not counting the little jabs that
the Dursleys have done though.) Before he didn't know any better so whenever
someone who say something bad about his parents, he couldn't say they were
wrong. Now, since he knows the truth, it's much worse. He knows it's a lie,
he knows the only reason that it's even being said is because the Dursleys
are a bunch of spineless cowards, and he knows that he's not suppose to
contradict it. I can't blame Harry for what he did, it's the commulination
of years of listening to people talk down to him and about his parents.
Everyone has a breaking point, no matter what the age, and he had reached
his.

> 3) What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do better in
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

Marge, someone has already said, gets memory charmed. As for the Dursley, I
dunno. They may get to the point where they leave Harry alone out of fear
but I don't think they'll ever really tolerate, much less, accept him.
They've seen nothing but the bad side of magic since Harry lived there. I
don't know what Petunia's experience with Lily was like but if they acted
like any normal siblings, it probably wasn't all that pleasant either.

> 4) What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street? He
can't
>   apparate.

No, but he wasn't focusing on where to go. His main thought was get away
right then. Where to go to would be something he could figure out
afterwards. And judging from the people I've known who've run away from bad
home situations, it's about par. They usually were so focused on getting
away from it that where they ended up at didn't matter, it just couldn't be
as bad.

> 7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked
somebody,
>      or was he just not thinking?

Who would he have asked exactly? I've never gotten the impression that the
wizardly world actually knows a lot about Muggles and how to behave like
them at least judging from Arthur.

Well, I suppose he could have ask Hermoine, but that isn't something I think
would have occured to Ron.

Anyways, there's a few of my thoughts.
Genevieve




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 15:44:01 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:44:01 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
Message-ID: <LAW2-F6Plu4kAcCd4D7000087c0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17925

Ender wrote:
>   --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>   >
>   > I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right amount
>     of sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her a
>   > Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and would
>   > give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS and
>   > GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well
>   done, IMO.
>   >
>    To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
>   appropriate, and in no way comical.
>
>
>   I was wondering about that comment.  Why would a Scottish accent be 
>considered comical?  Is that a bit of local prejudice?  I also find it 
>interesting that Rowling, who lives in Scotland and has set Hogwarts in 
>Scotland, has given us no overtly scottish characters, aside from, 
>possibly, McGonagall and MacNair...unless I'm missing something (and I'm 
>sure you'll all let me know if I am :)
>   Other than that we have a rather diverse group of characters of African, 
>Irish, Eastern and Asian descent. Where are the Scots?  And what about the 
>Welsh, for that matter?

To my Scottish ears, a Scottish accent is not comical, either! :)  I wonder 
if Star Trek's Scotty has a lot to answer for?  *His* accent sounded 
*extremely* comical to British ears.  As for other Scots, I always imagined 
Hagrid with an Ayrshire accent, until JKR said it was West Country, and I 
imagine Madeye Moody as a Scot "OH NO YOU DON'T, LADDIE!" sounds very 
Scottish to me!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From eggonmyhead at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 17:25:29 2001
From: eggonmyhead at hotmail.com (eggonmyhead at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:25:29 -0000
Subject: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
Message-ID: <9ck769+2si4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17926

I am new to this board - so hello everyone.

This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and have 
tried out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an 
explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling must 
have got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we 
are never told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts 
reign were explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories 
of loved ones.  My idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in 
contact with the minister for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged 
with the prime inister (pm) so that all the troubles in northern 
Ieland of the seventies and eighties were invented - therefore any 
killing was as a result of magic - and the troubles were invented as 
an excuse - to stop any muggles getting suspicious.  The few 
terrorist activitis were commited by death eaters - unwilling to 
admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would explain the recent 
upsurge in terrorist activity.

Make of it what you will - I rather like it.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 29 02:20:37 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:20:37 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Partial transcript (was Crookshanks *is* part-Kneazle)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F92ztPiFLlNWOT00008249@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17927

<snip useful transcript etc>
>
>Or *is* he registered? Hermione *was* alone in the pet shop for quite a
>while after Ron and Harry fled with Scabbers, she could have been
>filling out the paperwork, yes? Is there any good reason she'd have
>mentioned this? She's not the bragging sort, just to bring it up in
>order to be able to say it. As a Muggle, she might not know all the
>characteristics, so that might explain why she didn't defend
>Crookshanks' actions toward Scabbers on the basis of his Kneazle
>abilities. Whatcha think?

I'm sure Hermione would have registered Crookshanks, had she known he was 
half-Kneazle, but I'm equally sure that, in that case, his behaviour towards 
Scabbers would have made her suspicious, and I can't see her holding back 
this information.  So, I conclude she does *not* know Crookshanks is not an 
ordinary (therefore, of course, extraordinary) cat.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Mon Apr 30 17:51:46 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:51:46 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ck8ni+5aah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17928

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> 2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

Magic of course!

> 3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do 
better in     
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

What Marge thought is memory charmed away, as mentioned by others.  
However, I think that the accidental magic reversal squad who dealt 
with this incident may well have threatened Vernon and Petunia with 
NOT modifying her memory in order to get them to agree to have Harry 
back next summer.  I just don't see how else they could have talked 
them round - but with Marge hopping mad and threatening all-sorts of 
revelations they had an ideal bargaining position.

Florence




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 30 18:50:01 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:50:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F125C98Bi89Qtp00002fdd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430114407.00aaf900@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17929

At 07:03 AM 4/30/01 +0000, Morag Traynor wrote:
> >... although one wonders if she [Jane] would approve of JKR at all.
>
>I'm quite sure she does, and has placed an order with the celestial delivery
>service for books 5, 6 & 7 ;)!

I agree.  More problematic is what Louisa May Alcott thinks
of Harry Potter.  She seems a bit ambivalent about fantasy:
In chapter 3 of _Little Men_ she likens fantasy to junk food,
then in chapter 4 she describes _Arabian Nights_ as one
of the "dear immortal stories that will delight children
for centuries to come."

Which is odd, since actually I think it's a bit easier to
fit Louisa's characters into Harry Potter than Jane's,
as I think I described in a past post, with Nat as Harry
Dan as Ron, etc.



                                                 -- Dave




From meckelburg at foni.net  Mon Apr 30 18:56:15 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:56:15 -0000
Subject: Other magic trains, was Re: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <9cjvv8+1r9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ckcgf+8h39@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> > > Muggle Places:
> > > 
> > >snip>
> > > Questions:
> > > 
> > > 1)	Do any other trains run on Platform 9 ?? Wouldn't it 
be 
> > wasteful for a platform to run only twice a year, to school and 
> back?
> 
> Maybe there are other trains that run in the wizarding world that 
can 
> be picked up from 9 3/4.  If Harry travels abroad at some point, 
> maybe we'll find out that he can catch a train to France to visit 
> Fleur in Beauxbatons or somesuch.

In Ps one of the Weasley's ( I forgot who), asked another<g> "which 
platform doeas the train go?(or similiar). This indicates IMHO that 
there are more wizard plattforms on King's Cross. No wizard would 
believe the Hogwarts Express to leave from a muggle plattform.
Does that sound completly weird, or have I just noticed something new?

Mecki
(still waiting for the pupils to send their Exams <vbg>


"Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much 
heavier things flying across the room - Professor Flittwick, for 
instance" GoF (one of my very favorite quotes(LOL)





From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 19:15:50 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:15:50 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
Message-ID: <LAW2-F114b6uIU1Gj0300003d7b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17931

>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> > 2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

"Two members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were dispatched to 
Privet Drive a few hours ago.  Miss Dursley has been punctured and her 
memory has been modified." Fudge, PoA, p38 (Brit)

I love that "punctured" - do you suppose she flew round the room, making a 
rude noise, like an old balloon?
_________________________________________________________________________
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From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Mon Apr 30 19:22:05 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:22:05 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary thoughts
References: <9ck3gl+365t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AEDBB5D.44AE6537@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17932



joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> 7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked
> somebody, or was he just not thinking?
>
> Who would he ask?  I can imagine his father's response:  "You're
> going to use the fellytone?  That runs on eckleticity, right?"
> Actually, he probably did ask his father; I wouldn't be surprised if
> it was Arthur who told him he should shout.
>
> Of course, he could send an owl to Hermione, but I can't quite see a
> 13-year old boy asking a girl he is friends with but has a crush on
> for advice on how to do something.
>

This brings to mind a related question:  Where exactly did Ron go to use
the telephone?   Was it the one in the village?  I seem to remember
there being reference to a phone in Ottery-St. Catchpole.  Didn't Molly
use it to call for muggle taxis or something in GoF?  If so, Ron could
have asked his mother, maybe.   But he must have been quite a sight,
shouting at the top of his lungs and must have called attention to
himself.


drpam




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Apr 30 21:20:14 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:20:14 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ckkue+cbqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17933

Very nice summary!  I'm looking forward to discussing my favorite HP 
book in the upcoming weeks.  :-) 
 
> 1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get    
>   under them and then blow them up?

Others have mentioned this before, but Harry is only 13 years old.  
Self-control is, IMO, a learned thing that Harry still grapples with.  
However, calling someone's mother a bitch, even indirectly, is often 
the catalyst for some pretty nasty outbursts.  A few weeks ago in my 
school, a female student fairly violently attacked a boy because he 
referred to (I can't remember) her or her mother as a bitch - and they 
are both over 18 years old.  That's a pretty personal attack - and in 
Harry's case, Aunt Marge is insulting someone who is not even alive.  
That's low.

I think there are certain topics where we all draw the line.  I love 
to laugh at the outrageous things my students say, but I don't allow 
jokes about rape, abuse or the Holocaust in my classroom.  Believe me, 
my students know to take those subjects seriously, especially when I 
am around.  I can completely understand why Harry gets so upset.  The 
memory of his parents is one of the few things he can call his own 
when he is with the Dreadful Dursleys.   

> 3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do 
better in     
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)
> 4)	What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street? 
He can't    
>   apparate


Remember, unlike when we were 13, Harry actually does have somewhere 
to go, as well as a way to get there.  He exists in two worlds, and 
whether or not the Knight Bus or Cornelius Fudge were there to save 
him, someone else would have risen to the occasion.  In the wizarding 
world, Harry is well taken care of.  He also thought briefly about 
bewtiching his trunk to make it light, putting his invisibility cloak 
on, and flying to Diagon Alley.  He has options that we don't.

I also agree with what other people said that Harry was more 
interested in getting the hell out of there than he was in where he 
might go.  His decision was reckless, but brave.  Harry is a risk 
taker (which may really hurt him in upcoming books, BTW).


BTW, Morag Traynor, I loved your image of Aunt Marge deflating like a 
balloon flying around the room - LOL!

--jenny from ravenclaw*****************




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Mon Apr 30 21:45:46 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:45:46 -0000
Subject: Muggle-born parents' knowledge/braces? (wasThe "first" chapter summary PoA)
In-Reply-To: <9ck37t+o7ka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ckmea+s8m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17934

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > Is there some kind of wizarding rule which states that 
> > parents/guardians of muggle born witches and wizards should be 
> aware 
> > of what is happening - and that they therefore shouldn't have 
> memory 
> > charms placed on them?
> 
> That seems to be the case - in Cos (Chap. 5), Dumbledore tells 
Harry 
> and Ron that he will be informing both of their families of the 
> Flying Ford Anglia incident. Ron gets a Howler from his mother as a 
> result, but as Harry reflects, "As for Dumbledore's writing to the 
> Dursleys, that was nothing. Harry knew perfectly well they'd just 
be 
> disappointed that the Whomping Willow hadn't squashed him flat."

Just another example: Hermione mentions in GoF that she'd been 
begging her parents to allow her to shrink her teeth using magic, but 
they'd wanted her to continue with braces.

Speaking of braces, what kind of orthodontal work did Hermione have, 
anyway? Was she already on retainers and had had her braces removed 
by the time she entered Hogwarts? If so, her orthodontist didn't do 
much of a job, if she still had a pronounced overbite.

Oh, BTW, I loved your latest filk, Caius. LOL, too good!

Lyda




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon Apr 30 22:33:45 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:33:45 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F4cR4ZDgC81Tbd000028f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ckp89+840h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17935

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Interesting how the gifts reflect the givers <snippitty, snip, 
snip> Ron's gift is suspicion, but then it probably doesn't work 
anyway>

Oh, but I think it really does work. Ron says it went off when he was 
at dinner the night he wrote Harry's birthday letter (maybe Pettigrew 
was in Ron's pocket?)  It also fires up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron 
first enter the train compartment.  Scabbers/Pettigrew was there at 
the time.  It goes off in Harry and Ron's dormitory during Christmas--
again Scabbers was there, too.

Methinks that Harry ought to pay attention to the Sneakoscope.

Trina, who refuses to call H, H, & R a "troika" on the grounds it 
makes them sound like a balalaika band.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 30 22:41:12 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:41:12 -0700
Subject: Minerva the Cat
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430153659.00d28f00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17936

The movie _Our Miss Brookes_ is on right now.
In it is a cat named Minerva.  Have I discovered
an ulterior motive for McGonnegal's first name?  :)


                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Apr 30 23:13:53 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:13:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary thoughts
In-Reply-To: <9ck3gl+365t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430160848.00c164f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17937

At 04:22 PM 4/30/01 +0000, joym999 at aol.com wrote:
>Although the books don't say very much about Privet Drive, I have
>imagined it to be one of those incredibly dull, every-house-the-same,
>bland, insipid suburbs.  I am sure the Dursley's house has one of
>those carefully-manicured lawns with every blade of grass the same
>height, some very carefully trimmed bushes near the front door, and
>neat little rows of (what else) petunias on either side of the front
>walk.

Could Privet Drive be in one of those iron-fenced "mini-Azkaban"
communities where you have to give the guards your full name,
occupation, and maiden name of your second cousin's dental
hygenist before they let you in?  (Of course I'm not sure they
have those in the UK...)



                                                 -- Dave




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 19:23:09 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:23:09 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP and Jane Austen
Message-ID: <LAW2-F72hNPPzQT456U00009fe5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17965

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>At 07:03 AM 4/30/01 +0000, Morag Traynor wrote:
> > >... although one wonders if she [Jane] would approve of JKR at all.
> >
> >I'm quite sure she does, and has placed an order with the celestial 
>delivery
> >service for books 5, 6 & 7 ;)!
>
>I agree.  More problematic is what Louisa May Alcott thinks
>of Harry Potter.  She seems a bit ambivalent about fantasy:
>In chapter 3 of _Little Men_ she likens fantasy to junk food,
>then in chapter 4 she describes _Arabian Nights_ as one
>of the "dear immortal stories that will delight children
>for centuries to come."
>
>Which is odd, since actually I think it's a bit easier to
>fit Louisa's characters into Harry Potter than Jane's,
>as I think I described in a past post, with Nat as Harry
>Dan as Ron, etc.

I don't know about LMA, but Jo, who is her non-stuffy alter ego, would 
probably love them :)  When I started this thread, I was hoping someone 
would have spotted any Austen references or influences *in the text*, 
(besides the ones I mentioned) interesting as it is to think of the 
characters of one book in terms of another.  Any takers?
>
>
>
>                                                  -- Dave
>

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 30 19:28:25 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:28:25 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other magic trains, was Re: Muggle Places
Message-ID: <LAW2-F130XX50yki4js0000a3dc@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17990

Mecki wrote:
>
>In Ps one of the Weasley's ( I forgot who), asked another<g> "which
>platform doeas the train go?(or similiar). This indicates IMHO that
>there are more wizard plattforms on King's Cross. No wizard would
>believe the Hogwarts Express to leave from a muggle plattform.
>Does that sound completly weird, or have I just noticed something new?
>
>Mecki
>(still waiting for the pupils to send their Exams <vbg>
>
>
>"Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much
>heavier things flying across the room - Professor Flittwick, for
>instance" GoF (one of my very favorite quotes(LOL)

Mine too - I also love the little snapshot of Flitwick "flying resignedly 
past" :)

Not sure about the platforms - the query could just mean, in effect, "which 
platform is the magic one?"
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From Lindsay at stirton.net  Wed Apr 18 21:18:16 2001
From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:18:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: short introduction & lots of questions
In-Reply-To: <9foa30+em58@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7036EC8.1723%lindsay@stirton.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 20369


>>> Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of
> Magic? 

In terms of the British Constitution, Ministers are appointed by the Prime
Minister, who is appointed by the Queen from the House of Commons. There is
precedent that Ministers do not have to be members of either Houses of
Parliament, though this is very unusual.

This is not as daft as it sounds. There is obviously communication at the
highest levels between the muggle authorities and the Ministry of Magic at
the highest level - the Minister of Magic alerts the muggle authorities
about Sirius Black's escape in POA. So it is not straining things too much
to suppose that the Ministry of Magic is simply a Ministry of the British
Government, much as the Ministry of Agriculture etc.

It makes you think about Tony Blair in a different light, doesn't it? Maybe
the Tories weren't so far off the mark in 1997 with those 'demon eyes'!