Javert/Snape parallels

lea.macleod at gmx.net lea.macleod at gmx.net
Wed Apr 11 11:08:20 UTC 2001


No: HPFGUIDX 16376

 Andrea  wrote:

> --- lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> > I think the life-saving-and-being-indebted-to-
> > your-worst-enemy-parallel between 
> > Javert and Snape is so obvious that it has lead us
> > to parallel their  characters and cases entirely. We shouldn´t do 
that.The parallel ends  here.
> 
> Hrm.  Well, I agree to a certain extent, but I do see
> parallels in them stil.  I don't think Snape has
> "gotten over" or worked through the issues raised by
> his debt to James.  In many ways, he's simply shut off
> his brain to that portion, until of course he was
> confronted head on with Harry, who we've always heard
> looks extraordinarily like James.  
> 
> True, Snape definitely handles this differently from
> Javert.  But I do see Snape as still having a
> very difficult time struggling with his world view.

------------
Yes, I agree. I did some reading last night (NOT HP for a change) and 
I realised that Snape is *NOT* Javert. They are alike as being 
confronted with the same conflict. This conflict occurs because they 
experience something that upsets their world views utterly. But 
they´re not alike at all in their handling of it.

heidi wrote:

>He (Javert) actually  does have choices,  but selecting any of them 
>would force himself to   reconsider his ideals and perspectives, and 
>even the act of  reconsideration would be tantemount to a violation 
>of such ideals and perspectives, and therefore, the weak, cowardly 
>decision is made to  not engage in such self-examination.  Snape, on 
>the other hand, I believe, has reconsidered his  perspecitves, and 
>probably his ideals . And in so doing, he has made brave decisions 
>that are  fully opposite to the idea of cowardice.  

Yes! Snape´s ideals and perspectives have probably been shaken more 
severely and thoroughly than anyone else´s in all the books. He´s been 
through the most fundamental process of reconsideration you can 
imagine. Hate him if you like for his unfairness towards Harry - in 
the end you will realise (along with Harry, I hope) you´ve done him 
enormous injustice.

--------------------------
> Oh, I just had an interesting thought.  Snape became a
> Death Eater and then later turned back to the Light
> <g> and began working as a sort of double-agent.  What
> if his initial turn to working for Voldemort was as a
> way to put his world-view back in order after James
> screwed around with it?  (Andrea II)

Sounds good, but I think Snape joining the DE wasn´t much of a 
long-pondered and autonomous decision. Remember when he joined them, 
he was very young (JKR said he´s in his late thirties at the end of 
GoF), and he was in a Slytherin gang, and he knew curses before he 
even came to Hogwarts (where would he have learned them but in his 
family?), so his socialisation was throughout Slytherin/Dark Arts. 

I believe *the* decision of his life was not joining the DE but 
turning back to *the Light*. Let´s go looking for a reason for *this*. 
It may be found in the James-Snape-relationship.
----------------

Amanda wrote (longwindedly on her favourite subject):

>I've been pondering, as I threatened. Javert "broke," I think, 
because
> he spent his whole life in that black/white rules mode.Yes,it can be 
>perceived as a kind of cowardice; for Javert, it was armor, and it 
>failed him.

> Okay. Snape. I think he has not always been so rules-oriented. I 
>think he's in some sort of "pause" mode. His reliance on the 
>importance of rules seems to me not on the same scale as Javert's. 

>Rules and such seem important to Snape, but on a more intellectual, 
>less "gut" level than they do to Javert. For Javert, they are the 
>fabric of the universe. For Snape, they are a non-emotional means to 
>view and interact with the world. 

Very well pondered, Amanda. I´ve got nothing to add to that.

>I think in his past he was not the contained, controlled man we see 
>now; it is always an invoking of the past, of old associations or old 
>relationships, that provoke the emotion in him, including the insane 
>emotional scene in PoA.

I don´t think he´s a controlled, contained man even now. Alright, he´s 
not exactly keen on talking to other people about his personal 
problems (do we know, though? What about him and Prof. McGonagall 
sitting in front of a cosy fireplace on a rainy saturday afternoon, 
having some tea, immersed deeply in conversation about personal moral 
and ethical standards? I don´t think that´s entirely absurd)

But still, Snape hardly ever makes a secret of his feelings towards 
anyone, even Dumbledore. But instead of appreciating it as an honest, 
straightforward, if slightly un-diplomatic attitude, he experiences it 
as a weakness. 

Just a side-thought: I don´t think Snape makes a good liar. Meaning 
he´s probably good at it technically (having been a spy), but I´m 
quite sure he abhors it, inwardly.

>I don't, for the record, think the main irritant to Snape was ever a
>lack of public recognition. Snape has never indicated that he assigns
>the slightest importance to what anyone else thinks, saving probably
>Dumbledore and McGonagall (and perhaps a few other teachers). The 
>people he values know his choices and worth; I doubt he gives a 
>tinker's damn for the opinions of people he doesn't value. His 
>ambition, I think, follows such private avenues, and does not 
>actively seek public acclaim (although he, like most of us, probably 
>wouldn't mind...).

Yes, doesn´t Quirrel say something like "he did make himself 
unpopular", when he explains to Harry at the end of HPPS that Snape 
didn´t want to kill him but saved his life. Snape obviously didn´t 
mind.

But how does this fit with Lupin´s statement at the end of PoA that 
"The loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard"?
---------------------------

And now things were getting out of hand on this thread! 

Just because someone made a connection between your two favourite 
books, don´t go and try to force them into the same pattern! It won´t 
work anyway. The books may have *nothing* in common except that you 
like them both!

heidi wrote:

> I've *tried* to place the HP  characters into Les Miz - both the 
>book and the musical - and I cannot get it to work. 

I must say that doesn´t surprise me at all.





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