Ron's Jealousy of Harry

[Demelza]

No: HPFGUIDX 16441

I'm going to address the last part first. It might clear up a few 
things.

Penny wrote:
> > The only way I think I can objectively dissect and analyse the
> > characters is to examine their actions within the context of the
> > chapter(s) as they take place. I think using the final outcome to
> > interpret their actions in earlier chapters (or in earlier books)
> > gives a somewhat tainted analysis of their actions 'in situ'.
> 
> I don't get your point here, Demelza.  You have to look at overall
Ø context to interpret their actions (and you do that I might add).  

I don't review medical charts like Milz, but I have a science 
background. So I approach the analysis of the characters with a few 
things in mind. One is the "Self-fulfilling prophecy" phenomenon: the 
researcher subconsciously manipulates the data to support his 
hypothesis or final outcome. The other is the "Heisenberg Uncertainty 
Principle": even at the sub-atomic level, there is a margin of error. 
Therefore, as the complexity of the system increases,  so does the 
margin of error. Essentially, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle 
forces you to acknowledge error and to acknowledge that no system is 
100% predictable. Being that the Harry Potter series is a work in 
progress, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle serves as a reminder 
that the fate of these characters aren't set in stone, yet.
The way I interpret/analyze the characters and/or the hypotheses given 
in this forum is similar to the way I've been taught to analyze data 
within a scientific article.  That is, I read  the article. Then I 
examine the data in light of the researcher's conclusions. Then I 
examine the methodology used to obtain that data.  Then I look at the 
statistical model the researchers used to determine if that data 
supported their hypothesis. If the methodology supports the data, if 
the statistics support the data, then the hypothesis is sound within a 
prescribed margin of error. 
Because this isn't a scientific article, I have to modify my method. 
So when I read "Hermione was right; Ron is so jealous of Harry". I go 
to my source of data: the books and find that passage. I read the 
passage. Then I read it again, in light of the conclusion. Then I go 
through the prior books and the chapters leading up to that passage to 
find anything that can support or negate that conclusion. Since this 
is a book of fiction, I modify the statistics step by "weighing the 
evidence" to determine if the evidence supports or negates the 
conclusion.
I also keep in mind that the books follow a time continuum and there 
is a specific order of events. At any point in the books, the 
characters knowledge is limited to what has transpired up to that 
point. Therefore their perspective of events at any one time is 
limited to what has transpired up to that point. (The characters in 
chapter 10 of book1 don't know the events of chapter 10 book 3. 
However, the characters in chapter 10, book 3 do know the events of 
chapter 10 book 1 ) Likewise, if I analyze an event in PS/SS, I have 
to work within the confines of that book alone, because CoS, PoA, GoF 
haven't happened yet in the time continuum. But if I analyze an event 
in Chapter 26 GoF, I have the three prior books plus the first 25 
chapters of GoF to use as resources because they have occurred as of 
Chapter 26 GoF.  It's similar to what Milz does with medical chart 
reviews, examining them as though the events are unfolding before you. 
Medical charts are reviewed in that way so that reviewer can have more 
depth of understanding.
I also try to keep my personal feelings out of my analysis. That's 
very hard to do, especially if you identify with a character or event. 
But, if you begin to interject how you would have behaved or how you 
would have felt rather than trying to figure out why that character, 
as presented by the author, did this or said that you can miss the 
author's point.  It's easy to say "the books are written from Harry's 
point of view and certain events/characters are exaggerated etc." 
However, every word of every sentence is deliberately chosen by the 
author to specifically convey his idea, intent.  Ignore those subtle 
word choices and you miss the author's perspective. Being that the 
author is telling his story, his perspective is important in 
understanding his characters.

> Aren't you using the final outcome in the books to support your
> conclusion that Ron is not jealous of Harry (citing the chess game, 

the
> Aragog incident & when he stands up to Sirius in PoA to support the
> notion that Ron is not a jealous person)?  It seems to me that 

you're
> ignoring some of the other incidents that clearly point that Ron is
> jealous of Harry and pointing to the big picture to say, "No, he 

can't
> be because ...."  
> 
Nope. As I explained above, a hypothesis was put forth that Ron is 
jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Jealousy is an observed 
behavior. Hermione observed this behavior somewhere to make that 
assessment. Because the revelation occurs in Ch 18 GoF, the behavior 
had to have occurred before that chapter and perhaps before GoF.  From 
the number of respondents who support the jealousy theory,  I figure 
readers have observed this same behavior (jealousy of Harry's fame and 
attention) in the earlier books or the earlier chapters of GoF (unless 
they believe all Hermione's assessments to be fact without the need of 
supporting evidence). I looked through the data I had (the books by 
J.K. Rowling) for signs of this observed behavior. I couldn't find 
anything in the prior books or in the chapters leading up to Ch 18. 
GoF that Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. Again, I would 
be interested to find evidence to supports it.  

> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > As for jealousy of Harry, I'm hard pressed to find anything in the
> > books to indicate he is jealous of HARRY,
> 
> "[Ron] was always touchy about the fact that Harry, who had 

inherited a
> small fortune from his parents, had much more money than he did."  

[GoF,
> Chapter 7]
> 
> Look at the conversation between Harry & Hermione in GoF, Chapter 

18,
> re: Ron's jealousy.  Hermione explains it quite well, and Harry 

doesn't
> deny it.  Hermione herself says that Ron keeps it to himself for the
> most part, but *it is there.*   She and Harry both know it.  Harry
> doesn't dispute her thoughts on this.
> 
> "Must be nice .... to have so much money you don't notice if a 

pocketful
> of Galleons goes missing." [GoF, Chapter 28]
> 
> > <snip all the incidents of Ron's bravery/self-sacrifice> Those 

aren't
> > the actions of a jealous person.
> 
> Well, I don't think anyone would argue that he walks around 

displaying
> nothing but jealousy all the time.  But, he can still be brave &
> self-sacrificing in times of danger but *also* be jealous of Harry.
> 

I agree: let's look at GoF Ch 18
Setting: It's the morning after the fight with Ron. On the way to 
breakfast, Harry is met by Hermione, carrying a stack of toast. They 
go outside to the grounds and Harry tells her his side of the story. 
Hermione says that she saw the look on his face and believes him. 
***
"Have you seen Ron?" Harry interrupted.
Hermione hesistated.
"Erm
yes
he was at breakfast," she said.
"Does he still think I entered myself?"
"Well
no, I don't think so
not _really_" said Hermione awkwardly.
"What's that supposed to mean, 'not really'?"
"Oh Harry isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's 
jealous."
"_Jealous_?" Harry said incredulously. "Jealous of what? He wants to 
make a prat of himself in front of the whole school, does he?"
"Look, " said Hermione patiently, "it's always you who gets all the 
attention, you know it is. I know it's not your fault, " she added 
quickly seeing Harry open his mouth furiously. "I know you don't ask 
for it
but--well--you know, Ron's got all those brothers to compete 
against at home, and you're his best friend, and you're really 
famous--he's always shunted to one side whenever people see you, and 
he puts up with it, and he never mentions it, but I suppose this is 
just one time too many
"
"Great," said Harry [Penny quoted the remainder of the passage]
***
Clearly, Hermione thinks Ron is jealous of Harry's fame and attention. 
Sure, money 'makes you handsome, intelligent, and a good dancer' and 
we all know the Weasley's aren't rolling in money, but Hermione 
SPECIFICALLY tells Harry that it's the attention and fame that Ron 
envies. As I wrote above, I've looked for evidence to support this in 
the previous books and in the chapters leading up to Ch. 18 GoF. I 
can't find anything that even hints that Ron is jealous of Harry's 
fame and attention he garners. If there's anything there, let me know.
 
> > When Harry's name pops out of the Goblet, Ron is
> > surprized. But think about it, Harry has included Ron in all of 

his
> > escapades. Why should Harry leave him out now? Ron's been a loyal
> > friend. Ron's been supportive of Harry. Ron has risked his life 

for
> > Harry. Yet, he thinks his best friend has left him out of the 

loop.
> > I've seen real-life relationships disintegrate for similar
> > reasons--lack of communication, misunderstanding and foolish 

pride.
> > But Hermione interprets this as "jealousy" of Harry's fame???
> 
> Yeah.  This doesn't seem irrational to me.  It's certainly not 

regarded
> as irrational to either Hermione or Harry (see above).  Harry 

doesn't
Ø look at Hermione and say, "What?  Jealous?  How'd you get *that*?"  

He
> says, "Great.  Really great.  Tell him from me I'll swap anytime he
> wants. .... I'm not running around after him trying to make him grow
> up!  Maybe he'll believe I'm not enjoying myself once I've got my 

neck
> broken or --"


Please see the above quoted section from GoF Ch 18. Harry is 
"incredulous" at this jealousy revelation.
Later in Ch 18 can be found this curious passage:
***
Harry didn't answer. Yes, everything did seem to happen to him
that 
was more or less what Hermione had said as they walked about the lake, 
and that was the reason, according to her, that Ron was no longer 
talking to him.
***
"that was the reason, according to [Hermione], that Ron was no longer 
talking to him."
Interesting choice of words J.K.Rowling has chosen. It doesn't say 
"that was the reason Ron was no longer talking to him". It qualifies 
that this is _Hermione's_ reason, with almost implying that Harry 
that's not Harry's reason too. 

> Hermione saw how shocked & scared Harry was.  *She* was perceptive
> enough to pick up on this.  Ron, however, did not.  He leapt to the
> conclusion that Harry had put his name into the Goblet, had found a 

way
> to circumvent the age-line & had left him out of it.  There's that
> leaping to conclusions again.  Why would Ron not be able to see the 

same
> reactions on Harry's face that Hermione did?  If it's not because he
> leapt to conclusions (out of jealousy or impulsiveness), then *what* 

was
> the reason?
> 
GoF Ch 17
Setting: Harry's name has been announced. The Great Hall is silent. 
All eyes are glued on him.
***
Harry turned to Ron and Hermione; beyond them, he saw the long 
Gryffindor table all watching him, openmouthed.
"I didn't put my name in," Harry said blankly. "You know I didn't."
Both of them stared just as blankly back.
***
Harry spend the majority of the chapter with the other champions and 
teachers in the room off the Great Hall. At the impromptu Gryffindor 
celebration, Ron and Hermione are not present (or at least not 
mentioned in that section). The chapter ends with the Ron and Harry 
feud. Hermione is not seen until the beginning of Ch 18 when she, 
carrying a stack of toast, meets Harry on the stairs. Only AFTER Harry 
tells his side of the story, does Hermione say she noticed his 
demeanor and that she believed him.
 
As I've written before, Ron doesn't like to be left out. In PoA, he's 
miffed that Hermione kept the Time-Turner a secret the whole year. In 
GoF, Ch 17 Ron brings up that Harry could have used the Invisibility 
Cloak and that both of them would have been able to fit under it. 
Clearly, Ron feels left out. From Ron's point of view, he feels 
isolated. He feels angry that his best friend of 3 years doesn't trust 
him enough to outsmart the Goblet together. Solely looking from Ron's 
point of view, Harry was acting out of character. Likwise, from 
Harry's point of view, his best friend of 3 years doesn't believe him 
and Ron was acting out of character.

> > Her near pathologic obsession with studying can be considered a 

cry
> > for
> > attention (not to mention a potential diagnosis of
> > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder)
> 
> I saw that Heidi addressed this already.  I agree completely that
> Hermione displays no signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. 


Right now I'm doing a very Hermione-like thing. I'm consulting a 
library book. I'm not an expert in this field but, like Hermione, I'm 
confident the books will help me along. 
This is from the diagnostic criteria of DSM-4R manual published by the 
American Psychiatric Association (APA)
"301.4 Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, 
and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, 
openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in 
a variety of contents, as indicated by four (or more) of the 
following:
1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or 
schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g. is 
unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict 
standards are not met)
3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to exclusion of 
leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious 
economic necessity)
4. is over-conscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of 
morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or 
religious identification)
5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they 
have no sentimental value
6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they 
submit to exactly his of her was of doing things
7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money 
is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophies
8. shows rigidity and stubbornness"

According to guidelines used by the APA, Hermione exhibits partial 
clinical signs of OCD (1, 3, 4-the SPEW phase, 8 -Crookshanks). 
Hermione is saved from an OCD diagnosis because her behaviors haven't 
interfered with her daily functioning. In the meantime, she can be 
possibly diagnosed as Personality Disorder, NOS which is a category 
for disorders that do not meet criteria for any specific Personality 
Disorder.
Again, I'm not an expert, but I'm merely trying to show that 
Hermione's behaviors are not without a mental health concern.

Ø Why is her
> desire to achieve academically a bad thing?
> 
  
Desiring academic acheivement is no different than desiring financial 
stability or fame. Both can be 'good' because it can serve as 
motivation. Both can be 'bad' when that desire becomes overwhelming to 
the point of self-destruction.  

> > But her studying and academic success is not met with overt 

admiration
> > of her peers. She is considered a 'bossy know it all' but her
> > classmates and at least one teacher, Snape.
> 
> She's alot less of a bossy know-it-all by GoF.  She's done alot of
> maturing.  IMO
> 
> > He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.
> 
> Um .... yes & no.  He was silent & hardly able to do more than heave
> himself into the car.  I don't know that it's fair to say that he 

truly
> confronted & overcame his fears.
> 

Phobias can be debilitating to those who have them. For someone with a 
phobia , for example of frogs, to even be in the same room with the 
object is a tremendous accomplishment. Sure Ron was pale and 
diaphoretic, but he still faced Aragog and overcame his fear, even if 
it was a little. Hermione on the other hand, ran screaming from her 
boggart. 

This is what I like about this group. It forces me to read the books 
again and I find new things in them time and time again.  

This is the sequence of events following the Ron-Harry fallout and the 
roll Hermione plays in it.
Ch 17. Ron and Harry have harsh words and go to sleep.
Ch 18. Paragraph one: Harry wakes up and "sat up and ripped back the 
curtains of his own four-poster, intending to talk to Ron, to force 
him to believe him--only to find Ron's bed empty; he had obviously 
gone to breakfast."
As he makes his way downstairs to the Great Hall, he bumps into 
Hermione, carrying a stack of toast. They go outside and talk.  Harry 
asks if Hermione had seen Ron that morning. Then Hermione reveals her 
jealousy assessment. Harry loses interest in what he had planned to do 
when he awoke that morning: sort things out with Ron.

Hermione's talk with Harry somehow deters Harry from seeking out Ron. 
Perhaps if I put this im my penseive and look at it later I might be 
able to figure out why this sequence of events is moderately 
disturbing.

Demelza