Redemption of Draco/Lucius - Evil Hermione - Primary School - Fleur - House Elves - More

[Catlady]

No: HPFGUIDX 16763

Claire wrote:
> Also, do you think a "dark" character should die at the hands of
> Voldemort? How about Draco? Would his father turn away from
> the dark side (use the force luke! lol!) because of this? or does he
> love Voldemort more?

It seems there are more people who think that Lucius doesn't love Draco
at all than who think he does. Canon Draco seems to love his father, or
at least to admire him very much. (Please forgive a fanfic reference,
but in SoC, Heidi has Draco telling Hermione quite seriously: "He's as
close to perfect as anyone I know, and I know that I should aspire to
that.") So it would be more of an emotional conflict if V killed Lucius,
thus forcing *Draco* to choose sides.

Wicky Gheesha wrote:
> And no, I don't think that Lucius really loves Draco. Maybe he
> just planned to have him around the same time the Potters had
> their baby so that Draco could either defeat and kill him by
> betraying him as a friend, or try and get him to go to the dark
side...

I personally believe there was a prophecy or something that a boy born
around a certain day would have great powers, and therefore V ordered
his Death Eaters to go reproduce, with the intention of having that baby
born on the Dark Side, but co-incidentally the Potter boy was born at
the same time. We have Harry, Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle as main
characters, with Lucius and the senior Crabbe and Goyle in the circle in
the cemetery, and one 'Nott' in the Death Eater circle and another being
Sorted in Harry's year. There was no mention of a 'Lestrange' being
Sorted then -- perhaps Harry wasn't paying good attention during the L's
or perhaps the hypothetical child, who must have been in some kind of
foster home because both parents were in Azkaban, was going by the
foster parents' surname.

Steve van der Ark wrote:
> Someone brought up the question lately of what happened to
> Voldemort's closest friends at Hogwarts, the ones he used the
> V-name with while still in school. Considering that wizards live
> longer and might therefore have children later in life, I wonder if
> Mr. Malfoy might be one of them. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley were
> very possibly at Hogwarts before Tom Riddle, fifty years ago, and
> they have younger children

The antagonism between Lucius and Arthur certainly **feels** like they
were in school together (like Harry and Draco, Sirius and Seveus) and I
don't believe that Lucius was in school with Severus and the Marauders
(despite so many fanfics that do), but I counted out the years and found
that:
             with the long wizard lifespans, Lucius could well have been
in school with Tom Riddle
             if both Lucius and his father reproduced at Muggle-ishly
young ages, Lucius's FATHER could have been in school with Tom Riddle,
who could thus have been Lucius's godfather
              or we could split the difference and have Lucius's older
brother be in school with Riddle.

Amanda wrote:
>  the scene in CoS when Ron and Harry are polyjuiced and
> talking to Draco in the Slytherin common room. This is the only
> "eavesdropped" Draco glimpse we've gotten (snip)
> And Draco is nasty. Just as nasty as he is when he *is* "on view."
> He wants to know who the Heir is, so he can *help* him,
> (snip) So how do you believers in Draco's ultimate redemption
> handle this scene?

Canon Draco is an evil little monster... but he wants to help the Heir
because he believes (has been raised to believe) that that is the heroic
thing to do. Think Stewarts and Orangemen and the King over the water.
At that point, he hasn't even seen death yet (as far as we know from
canon), only Petrification. He said he hopes Granger will be killed, but
that is just an expression of extreme dislike of Granger -- I have been
known to say that I wish this person or that person would die a slow and
painful death very soon, but I know I would be totally grossed out if I
had to WATCH. His extreme dislike of Granger is not because she is
Muggle-born (we didn't hear him spitting venom at Justin Finch-Fletchly)
but rather because she is the cause of painful discussions in which
Lucius condemns Draco for not having the best grades in his year ...
maybe also because she has thwarted some of his anti-Harry plots.

Okay, at the end of GoF, he's old enough to know better, and he's seen
Cedric's dead body, and still he mocks at Cedric's death. That is stupid
as well as tacky, and very difficult to wish away.... but he hasn't seen
VIOLENT death yet, mangled bodies, or torture... And maybe he had some
long-standing dislike of Cedric, despite Cedric coming from an old
wizarding family... maybe Cedric beat him in a House Quidditch match
once! Maybe actually seeing torture and slaughter would have an effect
on him (altho' one hell of a lot of Muggle human beings seem to deal
with it just fine).

I think what would turn Draco is if someone he cared about, someone he
loved, was killed or in danger of death or maybe even just hurt and
humiliated before his eyes by the Dark Side.

***

Ebony wrote:
> All right, why *would* Hermione go bad?  I'm not talking about
> going undercover... I'm talking genuinely becoming an evil character.
> One  must allow that if there is a possibility for Draco redemption,
> there is also a chance of Hermione vilification.
>       So what scenarios can *you* come up with in which she would do
this?

Easiest scenario is the road to hell which is paved with good intentions
... the young idealist sees that wizarding society is full of bigotry
and oppression (against House Elves, giants, werewolves, Muggles,
financially poor wizarding folk), with lots of favoritism of quite
unworthy people (e.g. Malfoys, Fudges, Bagman), and good people like
Sirius were put in Azkaban without trial while wicked people like Lucius
walked free, and the Ministry is being worse than useless at preparing
for the return of Voldemort. Her efforts to change people's minds by
presenting them with facts and logical arguments result only in them
telling her to shut up, and perhaps expelling her from grad school or
firing her from her job. She starts thinking that assassination of Fudge
or some other prominent pieces of deadwood at the Ministry would be a
public service ... bombing a publishing house that prints anti-Muggle
books and never mind the poor janitors who were at work there at the
time ... One reaches a point where one might see that one's actions have
not had the desired effect, might see that they were morally wrong, or
might just be too tired to keep on fighting, but one also has a record
such that one cannot avoid a life sentence in Azkaban no matter how
repentant one feels. At this point, the genes' old biological survival
instinct kicks in and some people choose to lead a life of crime,
joining up with their previous enemies, because the other options
(Azkaban or suicide) are so anti-survival.

***

Catherine wrote:
> Well for one thing, it wouldn't be very sensible for them to attend a
> Muggle school, as I would've thought that it would be very difficult
> to keep a load of wizarding children quiet about their origins etc,
> and it would be very awkward if they were to develop Muggle
> friendships.

Catherine wrote:
> (I wonder if Draco went to a prep school?  He already seems
> firmly ensconced in his little threesome by the first journey to
> Hogwarts not to have known Crabbe and Goyle before).

I think the wizarding folk have a variety of forms of primary education
for their children. Some home-school, some send their children to small,
local, wizarding primary schools (which are not paid for nor regulated
by the MoM), and I believe that A FEW are sent to Muggle schools. They
must be supplied with magically forged records and carefully warned not
to talk about magic. and their parents must be prepared to use Memory
Charms, but it must be easier to control a few children than a load of
'em.

It is possible that Muggle friendships from Muggle primary schools turn
into mixed marriages, such as that which produced Seamus Finnegan.
Anyway, a witch who can get to know a Muggle man well enough to marry
him, without him knowing that she is a witch until after the wedding,
must know a lot more about how to behave among Muggles than the Weasleys
do! And having gone to Muggle school would be one way to learn how to
behave among Muggles.

I personally have the entirely baseless opinion that Draco was educated
by tutors at home (it seems to go with his family's wealth and
arrogance) and that his parents invited the senior Crabbe, Goyle, Nott,
and maybe Parkinson to send their children to share Draco's lessons
(accounting for how well they already know enough and how well they all
know that Draco is the boss).

Neil wrote:
> Rena said:
> > I don't know about the very large fortune part, because when
> > Harry saw the F irebolt for the first time, he wanted it, but then
> > reconsidered. He had to make the money last through another
> > five years of schooling. This makes me think, that his fortune
> > might be enough to get him through school and maybe a year
> > or two afterwards if he's careful, but definitely not enough to
> > grant  him unlimited spending.
> That's a very good point, Rena, and if he did have a vast
> fortune, he might  have considered buying, or been advised to
> buy, himself a house and get away  from the Dursleys for good
> (or perhaps become a permanent tenant  at The Leaky
> Cauldron?).  It wouldn't make sense for someone so independently
> wealthy to be living in a poky bedroom at his Aunt and Uncle's
> house, would it?

Rena, JKR said in an on-line chat that James had inherited enough money
that he and Lily didn't have to work for a living. Harry is supposed to
have inherited his parents' money. I personally find it easier to
believe that Harry underestimates how much money he has than that the
largest part of his parents' wealth was burned up in their house. In
that case, his entirely admirable responsible decision not to buy the
Firebolt was unnecessary. I note that *Sirius* had enough money in his
vault to buy the Firebolt; did he empty his whole vault to give Harry
one present? Or did he have a good bit socked away before he was sent to
Azkaban?

I also believe that when Harry was thinking of making his money last
through school, he was thinking of haircuts, books, clothes, candy in
Hogsmeade, not of tuition --  I believe for no particular reason that
tuition and room & board at Hogwarts are free. Paid for by MoM. That
way, there wouldn't be any problem of parents too poor to pay their
children's school fees, or Muggle parents *refusing* to pay for
wizarding school.

Neil, in my theory, Harry wouldn't have realised that he had enough
money to buy a house, or that it would be possible to buy a house while
under-age, and no one else would advise him to buy a house to get away
from the Dursleys, because Dumbledore said that Harry had to stay with
the Dursleys for his safety in order to be protected by 'ancient magic'.

***

FLEUR AS DADA TEACHER
I personally can't believe that a person can graduate from school one
year and be there teaching students only one year younger the very next
year. Oh, maybe Harry could be the DADA teacher by the time he
graduates, but that's because he's getting his on-the-job training
during school, not after finishing school -- a special case.

Glenn wrote:
> It would be kind of funny, though, to see how the Hogwarts
> boys did with a Veela as a teacher

Maybe they hear not one word of the class lectures because they are too
busy staring at Fleur -- or maybe they all study as hard as Hermione,
and hang on every word Fleur says, because they are so eager to make a
good impression on her.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> I do think she and Bill will have a thing, though - she sure was
> checking him out before the third task!

I apologise for repeating myself -- but I think it would be total hoot
if Fleur came to the Burrow (when all the family was there) in pursuit
of Bill, and Charlie and Percy and Fred and George and Ron was all
following her around with their tongues hanging out of their mouths, and
even Arthur was gazing at her with a slight smile on his face, but Bill
was not affected at all. When she finally catches him alone and either
grabs him into a kiss or demands to know why he's not interested in her,
he tells her he's exclusively gay.

***

Claire wrote:
> What do you all think that the Hogwarts house elves do in the summer
> holidays? A HUGE clean up of the castle? 6 weeks is a long time...

Big old castles like that need a lot of maintenance. Perhaps they spend
the summers fixing the roofs, repainting, and so on. Renewing and
replacing the spells. Especially the protective spells...

Maybe they remodel, and the reason Dumbledore only found the chamberpot
room once was that it had just been put there, and later was removed.

Jamieson wrote:
> I like to think that they have their own lives/families that they
visit.
> Dumbledore treats them really well, so I could see that happening.

I imagine that Hogwarts House Elves have their families with them all
year. House Elves have families, or at least mothers, as Winky wept
something about she served Master as her mother had service Master's
father.... I wonder if usually the fathers and mothers work for
different families, and the sons are sent to join their fathers at some
particular age?

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> Perhaps the Malfoys were the worst owners around, but Crouch
> treated poor Winky terribly as well.

Umm, could you give examples, please? I can't remember anything about
how Crouch Sr treated Winky before the World Cup except that it was she,
Winky, who talked him into letting Junior see the World Cup. Senior was
not guilty of forcing an acrophobic to save him a seat up on the Top
Box: she *volunteered* to do that so that invisible Junior could sit in
that seat. Senior broke her heart by firing her. He fired her when she
had just allowed Junior to escape, cast the Dark Mark, and go to help
Voldemort.

***

Celeste wrote:
> Heaven hath no fury like the hormones of a fifteen-year old.

What do hormones have to do with wanting your ideas to be heard?

***

Stephanie sdrk1 wrote:
> Does anybody else think that Lupin could have written
> _Hairy Snout, Human Heart_ (See FBAWTFT footnote
> in Werewolves section.)

I suppose JKR was setting up for Lupin to have written that book, but I
not only agree with whoever said that Lupin wouldn't have given it such
a stupid title, I also think that publishers and readers would be more
interested in a book that could also talk about adult experiences like
the job market. Therefore, JKR should have given it a later publication
date, not when Lupin was a sixth year student or even when he was a
seventh year student. (My calculation has Snape and the Marauders in
class of '76, so 1975 publication could be end of sxith year 74-75 or
beginning of seventh year 75-76.)

***

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> What's with JKR's capitalization?  Why are words like
> 'Quidditch' and 'Apparate' capitalized?  Is it only words
> she's made up (that wouldn't include Muggle, then, which
> was a word, albeit one she gave a new definition to)?

I think it's only words that she thinks she made up, therefore Muggles
is capitalized but wizard and witch are not.

***

Swirly Head wrote:
> Okay, I'm new to this group and I'm relatively new to being
> a huge HP fan. (snip) ....I became obsessed.

You should fit in here.

> Since then I've written a fanfic, been searching for sites and
> forums all over the place, and it looks like I've found one!

Do you already know about www.fanfiction.net ? They have, I don't know,
30,000 fics in their Harry Potter section, so get advice about which
ones to read ... I think there is a file in this egroup about Fanfic
Recommendations. I know there is an HP fanfic egroup:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/messages

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